[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I forgot in my family for guidance when I was trying to decide and they said, you know, I don't really want to. But later I realized because of me that they were so positively sure that I would not. And that's why they said what they did. My father got for a whole year and begged me not to go because he was sure I would be killed. And my mother was terribly disappointed that she had messed with me so well. She thought she knew me better than that. My brothers and sisters didn't care one way or the other because the school were shocked that I had really lost my mind so I couldn't get in the car, which made me feel that I was doing the right thing.

[Assistant] Well, we were in the same boat with her, OK, and you did did talk about being asked to join the Bolivia to project. What did you do to get yourself ready? When you knew you were going to go into the Peace Corps, did you do anything special?

[User] I went to a map and found Bolivia and beyond that, I did nothing to get ready. I do remember something amusing and my parents that they were called for graduation and then we got a fuller brush and we had a court. In our case, I think it was insect repellent. So, you know, going to the tropics first, what you would need, I would terribly accessible to in effect like that. That's all I can remember doing to prepare it was the fact that there was no there was very little preparation or any other way. So what you're getting into

[Assistant] Is we didn't really know too much, did we? We can. OK. Can you talk a little bit about the training that would have been your first experience.

[User] How long would you like that to be? You have every one of the hardest things I've ever done.

[Assistant] Well, the training for Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to a map and found Bolivia and beyond that, I did nothing to get ready. I do remember something amusing and my parents that they were called for graduation and then we got a fuller brush and we had a court. In our case, I think it was insect repellent. So, you know, going to the tropics first, what you would need, I would terribly accessible to in effect like that. That's all I can remember doing to prepare it was the fact that there was no there was very little preparation or any other way. So what you're getting into

[Assistant] Is we didn't really know too much, did we? We can. OK. Can you talk a little bit about the training that would have been your first experience.

[User] How long would you like that to be? You have every one of the hardest things I've ever done.

[Assistant] Well, the training for Peace Corps.

[User] And the Peace Corps, the Peace Corps or outside the Peace Corps, I found it psychologically very, very depressing. I felt that they were trying to break up, turn on each other so they could get rid of people and find a good excuse to so I can feel the support. But I expected to feel during the training, the training itself was very rough getting up at 3:00 in the morning and doing a mile. I thought the calisthenics were kind of fruity. They were weak. It wasn't really now that I have experienced physical strength, etc., etc. I know that what we did in Peace Corps was just, you know, jumping jacks and that was about it running around. Right. The training didn't apply to me or what I was doing or in any way prepare me for what I was about to go into. So, I mean, I can't I can't fathom that at all.

[Assistant] Can you can you talk about being on the Arizona State campus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How long would you like that to be? You have every one of the hardest things I've ever done.

[Assistant] Well, the training for Peace Corps.

[User] And the Peace Corps, the Peace Corps or outside the Peace Corps, I found it psychologically very, very depressing. I felt that they were trying to break up, turn on each other so they could get rid of people and find a good excuse to so I can feel the support. But I expected to feel during the training, the training itself was very rough getting up at 3:00 in the morning and doing a mile. I thought the calisthenics were kind of fruity. They were weak. It wasn't really now that I have experienced physical strength, etc., etc. I know that what we did in Peace Corps was just, you know, jumping jacks and that was about it running around. Right. The training didn't apply to me or what I was doing or in any way prepare me for what I was about to go into. So, I mean, I can't I can't fathom that at all.

[Assistant] Can you can you talk about being on the Arizona State campus?

[User] That was wonderful. I loved it. I didn't know anything about the and the campus is beautiful. The air conditioning in the classroom, as long as there are sleeping quarters on the football stadium. And I couldn't believe that that's where they put the front. And that's what we heard. And I thought the protesters were about as good as they could get. Not having anything to compare it to. How about that? I have a project. Oh, I don't really know what it's doing.

[Assistant] He's probably one of the few that give it to me. OK, so what did you think when you could you talk a little bit about going out to the Pima Maricopa Indian Reservation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was wonderful. I loved it. I didn't know anything about the and the campus is beautiful. The air conditioning in the classroom, as long as there are sleeping quarters on the football stadium. And I couldn't believe that that's where they put the front. And that's what we heard. And I thought the protesters were about as good as they could get. Not having anything to compare it to. How about that? I have a project. Oh, I don't really know what it's doing.

[Assistant] He's probably one of the few that give it to me. OK, so what did you think when you could you talk a little bit about going out to the Pima Maricopa Indian Reservation?

[User] Ok, I hated it. I do not like heat. And here I was going to a southern country, in the tropics. We had heard from there. So that said, I spent a year in Honduras and being here is nothing like you find in South America. So I think it is. And that kind of for me, she would have thought of my roommate. She was 65 years old at the time anyway. It was not a good experience with the really good part was I survived and. I thought it would be the chicken coop and we serve breakfast, the fact that I can't remember a whole lot that we get there for the Indian tribe, my Indian tribe.

[Assistant] What about the Peace Corps volunteers that you met?

[User] I couldn't understand.

[Assistant] What about the Peace Corps volunteers that you met in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, I hated it. I do not like heat. And here I was going to a southern country, in the tropics. We had heard from there. So that said, I spent a year in Honduras and being here is nothing like you find in South America. So I think it is. And that kind of for me, she would have thought of my roommate. She was 65 years old at the time anyway. It was not a good experience with the really good part was I survived and. I thought it would be the chicken coop and we serve breakfast, the fact that I can't remember a whole lot that we get there for the Indian tribe, my Indian tribe.

[Assistant] What about the Peace Corps volunteers that you met?

[User] I couldn't understand.

[Assistant] What about the Peace Corps volunteers that you met in training?

[User] Peace Corps volunteers that we met?

[Assistant] Yeah, your fellow Peace Corps volunteers. Trainees.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I couldn't understand.

[Assistant] What about the Peace Corps volunteers that you met in training?

[User] Peace Corps volunteers that we met?

[Assistant] Yeah, your fellow Peace Corps volunteers. Trainees.

[User] We were an extremely young group and they help young people and they wanted to be honest and want Peace Corps with our data. And everything was an experiment, in my opinion. And I thought they did a good job. I you know, I don't know how to say it, but we worked. So we sang songs and we work them and we did our time of Puerto Rico now. And I like that America

[Assistant] Will move on to Puerto


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps volunteers that we met?

[Assistant] Yeah, your fellow Peace Corps volunteers. Trainees.

[User] We were an extremely young group and they help young people and they wanted to be honest and want Peace Corps with our data. And everything was an experiment, in my opinion. And I thought they did a good job. I you know, I don't know how to say it, but we worked. So we sang songs and we work them and we did our time of Puerto Rico now. And I like that America

[Assistant] Will move on to Puerto

[User] We walked around in irrigation ditches. And once a week we get together. And I think with our great psychology day and we talked about civil rights to I think it's interesting.

[Assistant] What about the you what do you remember about that pilgrimage that we made to Puerto Rico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were an extremely young group and they help young people and they wanted to be honest and want Peace Corps with our data. And everything was an experiment, in my opinion. And I thought they did a good job. I you know, I don't know how to say it, but we worked. So we sang songs and we work them and we did our time of Puerto Rico now. And I like that America

[Assistant] Will move on to Puerto

[User] We walked around in irrigation ditches. And once a week we get together. And I think with our great psychology day and we talked about civil rights to I think it's interesting.

[Assistant] What about the you what do you remember about that pilgrimage that we made to Puerto Rico?

[User] You want me to say I got sick on the plane?

[Assistant] No, I don't care what you say. I'm just asking what you remember about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We walked around in irrigation ditches. And once a week we get together. And I think with our great psychology day and we talked about civil rights to I think it's interesting.

[Assistant] What about the you what do you remember about that pilgrimage that we made to Puerto Rico?

[User] You want me to say I got sick on the plane?

[Assistant] No, I don't care what you say. I'm just asking what you remember about it.

[User] Lot of people saying that I was at that time and so was he. And he said in Arizona, you had a six foot pole and then put your cigarette in it and then pile the sand back in. And Puerto Rico, you threw it out the window. So that was the difference in the weather as well from the minute I got there of Puerto Rico. And it was cold and wet and we were in the middle of the rainy season. So we also about it. But I had a really good roommate who took off a good care of me and cut my hair and everything. There was a real camaraderie then in our group as much as the fact that we we were together and in Puerto Rico, the number of people that we were there with, the Dominican Republic group and I can't remember who, but several who were there, we had heard about our training in Phoenix and the Maricopa Indian Reservation, I should say, happy and they heard about us. And they were just dying to meet people who would actually survive that. And we thought everybody was going through that train, the same kind of training that they weren't at that left the three day love the overnight. I love the feeling of, hey, these are things I've never done before in my life and I can do it. Give me a confidence that I think that was the whole reason for it, is that when you got to Bolivia and you were around like I was in a in a community, you take care of yourself and you wouldn't be you wouldn't be fearful. But I guess that's what I have to say.

[Assistant] What do you remember the 40 mile hike that we had to take from one side of the island to the other there at the end?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I remember that my blisters were so bad because they gave us didn't fit. And I survived a day and a half and they called and got up and sent me home. I mean, took me back to where we started. I never finished that huge hike because I couldn't work for days. I couldn't move.

[Assistant] Well, I think I built into the real total group, which was the last. Well, yeah. Okay. So

[User] I remember a variety of something

[Assistant]
And then we went to my group

That that was yeah. That was a very nice, very nice family. And I went to the ocean and my favorite story of that is that we went to the ocean and we were saying to each other, branch of water just like that. And a lot of our guys were swimming. They were wonderful athletes and they came out. And so what happened to the man who owned the house on the ocean? And we said, fire to reconsider. And you remember that. And then we went to the guy and I remember getting hit with a jellyfish. That process. I can't even imagine what a shark would be like.

Before we found out that there was a packing plant just around the point that destroyed some of their stuff into the water. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[User] Minor detail that the girls at the university would bring their dresses and hang them in the way you I've always been in the ladies room and then they would change it now because they were perspiring, they didn't show up, they conspired. And I thought, oh my goodness, I just can't be Puerto Rican, you know, because of being from New York. My idea of a Puerto Rican was probably different than what I encountered in Puerto Rico. So it was a wonderful again attack on my I and what I thought was reality then by the beginning of my immersion into diversity. There we go.

[Assistant] That's a fancy term there. OK, so let's go back to when you were we you remember when we met in Miami ready to go to Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, the international help, and spent another month learning the language and trying to learn the language anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah, that was a nice respite I think.

[User] I think it was good, but it was nice. We came with clothes for warm weather. And here we were in Vermont in

[Assistant] October!

[User] October. It was October and and the people in the neighborhood and they gave up everything, things. I remember the weekend and after that they said so we wouldn't corrupt group coming in.

[Assistant] I remember that there were some threats about boycotting that, but I've never been to. But I wasn't about to boycott course.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was good, but it was nice. We came with clothes for warm weather. And here we were in Vermont in

[Assistant] October!

[User] October. It was October and and the people in the neighborhood and they gave up everything, things. I remember the weekend and after that they said so we wouldn't corrupt group coming in.

[Assistant] I remember that there were some threats about boycotting that, but I've never been to. But I wasn't about to boycott course.

[User] I would never boycott like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, well let's talk about when you go to Bolivia, when you up with your problem, when you got to the process of getting into whatever you were going to do,


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] October. It was October and and the people in the neighborhood and they gave up everything, things. I remember the weekend and after that they said so we wouldn't corrupt group coming in.

[Assistant] I remember that there were some threats about boycotting that, but I've never been to. But I wasn't about to boycott course.

[User] I would never boycott like that. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, well let's talk about when you go to Bolivia, when you up with your problem, when you got to the process of getting into whatever you were going to do,

[User] It's going to be long and complex.

[Assistant] I got lots of tape.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In shorts. Yeah, but I remember that. Yeah. Yeah I know. I would think if you wanted to dress me up, all Spanish words are jumping into my head, and took it to a seamstress and told her what you wanted and she made you a dress, kind of wonderful, the way things were there. When, when we were, when we were in, we started by cooking ourselves and we would buy a whole tree branch of bananas and we run that for two days, then we make chocolate pudding and mix it with the cooking. And the cooking was hard to figure because you had to go to wherever they were selling food that day and you'd get a prime of meat and you look at it and you didn't know what part of the cow it came from or how to cook it. Maybe it should be boiled, maybe fried, maybe. It was very difficult to cook. And we became pension and we went and got a food from the local restaurant. So every day and I like that system very much, and it was a great deal cheaper than trying to cook bad food for ourselves. OK, so brought her sister down and I moved down to Mineros when I heard they

[Assistant] Weren't you in Saavedra? Yeah, was in Mineros. You were in Saavedra.

[User] Right. And I and I lived with my first and only Bolivian sister and her family. And I grew up at the local school. And when I was talking to the director, who I think was between 80 and 90 years old, I I said to him, I will be happy to teach English or he wanted things that I thought I can do that I can do. I can teach English. I have to make it worth Peace Corps time. And I will have no curriculum, no paper trail, pencils, visual aids, nothing. I walk into the sixth grade and.

[Assistant] Ok, so you were teaching health and PE.

[User] And a lot of really funny stories, but I'd really rather get to Cochabamba.

[Assistant] Ok, let's move on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And I and I lived with my first and only Bolivian sister and her family. And I grew up at the local school. And when I was talking to the director, who I think was between 80 and 90 years old, I I said to him, I will be happy to teach English or he wanted things that I thought I can do that I can do. I can teach English. I have to make it worth Peace Corps time. And I will have no curriculum, no paper trail, pencils, visual aids, nothing. I walk into the sixth grade and.

[Assistant] Ok, so you were teaching health and PE.

[User] And a lot of really funny stories, but I'd really rather get to Cochabamba.

[Assistant] Ok, let's move on.

[User] The school year ended and I went in to Mineros, why do I keep doing this, and talk to, um, the Mariners there. And they set me up with a summer program, and we were going to run it like a playground camp where morning and afternoon sessions and we have the kids that were going to help lead it. And we were training them. And we were we had already started collecting money from the parents get supplies that we needed. And some guy from Washington, D.C., Peace Corps comes down.

[Assistant] Oh, yes, it was Derrick Singer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was going to say that you never knew.

[Assistant] Well I was buried in my own issues down here in Santa Cruz, you know, I'm doing

[User] So I don't know what you did when when I left and went to Cochabamba.

[Assistant] But we did kitchen table surgery. All kinds of things that are discussed on my tape.

[User] I’ll have to go get your tape someday.

[Assistant] I'll send a copy to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I don't know what you did when when I left and went to Cochabamba.

[Assistant] But we did kitchen table surgery. All kinds of things that are discussed on my tape.

[User] I’ll have to go get your tape someday.

[Assistant] I'll send a copy to you.

[User] I would love to hear.

[Assistant] So tell me, you talked about all the things you did. What did you do in your free time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We are taking pictures. I just got to be fair, sorry, we have taken lots of pictures of for this rapid, et cetera, of the Florida politics and on the way into the city, one of our volunteers ran up instead of pounding on our window to say that President Kennedy had been shot.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[User] So we parked car. This is crazy. You know what can't be happening. Have heard it correctly. And we drove on and then we all got out of the jeep. You know, everybody went their own way. And I went in to get a Coke from one of the little corner stores. And as I walked in the door, everybody looked at me, which isn't really uncommon, I guess. And because they were always looking at us, because we were different. And so I ordered my Coke and I stood there drinking because it was in the shade drinking by coke. And I heard the radio President Kennedy shot and he is dead. He has been assassinated. So I put the book down and went all the way to my house and woke up my housemates. And they didn't believe it, of course. And they called the embassy and the embassy confirmed it. And then the people in the community started knocking on the door and coming back to tell us they were sorry about our president. And we thought that was so funny. And we didn't know who our friends or anything. It was just people. We would go out the street and people would come up to us and say, you know, we're really sorry. They have the flags at half mast, people, black armbands, they tied black, you know, whatever, ribbons around everything. They could be really wrong. That man,

[Assistant] The same the same thing happened in Santa Cruz on the same thing happened in Santa Cruz. People came to say they were sorry about what had happened.

[User] Right, it was it was touching, very, very touching. And that's all I can remember. Beautiful swimming pool, all the stuff you didn't have in Santa Cruz.

[Assistant] So as you look back, did you do any traveling outside of Bolivia when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do want to say something about the health care that was mentioned in the emails that I was telling you about earlier when I went to Bolivia. Have the records somewhere. When we arrived in Santa Cruz and went to orientation at Santa Cruz, we went to a hotel, the Hotel Santa Cruz. And I think that's where I picked up a parasite.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] Very, very seriously ill when we were getting to Guabira, I was feverish for two days, I think. And then it took me a week to get over it. The following year, doctors came down and did stool samples and they found and they said, you've had this a long time. And I went, oh, what is this mean for my future? Five years later, they're discovering Crohn's disease that I've been battling Crohn's ever since. If they had caught that a little earlier. So I don't think I would have had the problems that I've had. Yeah, but I just wanted that on record. They need those doctors to stay in Cochabamba all the time. They could have visited us more than once a year.

[Assistant] Well they came down and did all that kind of thing when we were about to leave and they discovered that I had hookworm. But it was fairly nascent. But I had to do the whole cure thing, which was not easy.

[User] Mine was easy. It took two pills. That’s all I had was two pills. And hopefully they were gone.

[Assistant] Yeah, what kind of damage did they do? Ok, so if would you if you were to do it again, would you do it again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I when I left, I felt I had to there was a question we were asked when they were debriefing us. And it was I don't feel that you've done everything you could possibly do. And I said, absolutely, I couldn't work anymore. I couldn't have done more if I had stood on my head. Well, and you know what's funny? Because I thought, oh, my God, nobody else is saying that. And I thought, but I'm not going to change my mind.

[Assistant] No.

[User] Well, I could work some days, I guess.

[Assistant] You know, I felt like I had worked very hard, but I would have never sure if I met the objective they had because, you know, there was this gap between what the Bolivians wanted you to do and what you already you were prepared to do, you know? And so, you know, when I just try to be philosophical about it because, I mean, they were still functioning. So I guess and they had and they had increased in size and all that kind of stuff. So I guess they must have worked.

[User] I remember the training telling us and I said I never finished it. One of my problems, if I have, I will be taking over for us when we leave. I will have done a good job, because that's about whether or not it's the same as the people you said, because I was I said to myself, I wonder whether. But that's what I work for all the time and that's what I work for. Well, you know, I create a position that can't be so Bolivian and

[Assistant] That that ability to keep it going, what they call it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I could work some days, I guess.

[Assistant] You know, I felt like I had worked very hard, but I would have never sure if I met the objective they had because, you know, there was this gap between what the Bolivians wanted you to do and what you already you were prepared to do, you know? And so, you know, when I just try to be philosophical about it because, I mean, they were still functioning. So I guess and they had and they had increased in size and all that kind of stuff. So I guess they must have worked.

[User] I remember the training telling us and I said I never finished it. One of my problems, if I have, I will be taking over for us when we leave. I will have done a good job, because that's about whether or not it's the same as the people you said, because I was I said to myself, I wonder whether. But that's what I work for all the time and that's what I work for. Well, you know, I create a position that can't be so Bolivian and

[Assistant] That that ability to keep it going, what they call it.

[User] Yeah. And you did it and you did it. That and I don't know if people are still paying attention to the energies, but I did what I could and I walked out the door and I can't go back overseas. There's no way. They haven't told me you want to die because I went back to Venezuela or we went to Venezuela or caught here three times. Amoebic dysentery. Oh, my goodness. Every time someone here came back and had a mammoth operation, they almost lost me. I had the three kids and I just said I had a chance again in my own cooking, we drink bottled water. You know, it's a very advanced country. And I got dysentery three times.

[Assistant] So it sounds like through the years, although you haven't had any additional involvement with Bolivia, you have continued to be in a service kind of position doing things like what would have been described as Peace Corps activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember the training telling us and I said I never finished it. One of my problems, if I have, I will be taking over for us when we leave. I will have done a good job, because that's about whether or not it's the same as the people you said, because I was I said to myself, I wonder whether. But that's what I work for all the time and that's what I work for. Well, you know, I create a position that can't be so Bolivian and

[Assistant] That that ability to keep it going, what they call it.

[User] Yeah. And you did it and you did it. That and I don't know if people are still paying attention to the energies, but I did what I could and I walked out the door and I can't go back overseas. There's no way. They haven't told me you want to die because I went back to Venezuela or we went to Venezuela or caught here three times. Amoebic dysentery. Oh, my goodness. Every time someone here came back and had a mammoth operation, they almost lost me. I had the three kids and I just said I had a chance again in my own cooking, we drink bottled water. You know, it's a very advanced country. And I got dysentery three times.

[Assistant] So it sounds like through the years, although you haven't had any additional involvement with Bolivia, you have continued to be in a service kind of position doing things like what would have been described as Peace Corps activities?

[User] I saw that. I thought it that thing, you know, have you continued have any involvement with. No, but I have had plenty of involvement with Hispanics.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. I haven't really had continued involvement with Bolivia except for that trip we took. But I mean, nine years in South and Central America, you know, since. And probably the reason I went into to an apology when I got back and all the other stuff, but who knows? Anyway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And you did it and you did it. That and I don't know if people are still paying attention to the energies, but I did what I could and I walked out the door and I can't go back overseas. There's no way. They haven't told me you want to die because I went back to Venezuela or we went to Venezuela or caught here three times. Amoebic dysentery. Oh, my goodness. Every time someone here came back and had a mammoth operation, they almost lost me. I had the three kids and I just said I had a chance again in my own cooking, we drink bottled water. You know, it's a very advanced country. And I got dysentery three times.

[Assistant] So it sounds like through the years, although you haven't had any additional involvement with Bolivia, you have continued to be in a service kind of position doing things like what would have been described as Peace Corps activities?

[User] I saw that. I thought it that thing, you know, have you continued have any involvement with. No, but I have had plenty of involvement with Hispanics.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. I haven't really had continued involvement with Bolivia except for that trip we took. But I mean, nine years in South and Central America, you know, since. And probably the reason I went into to an apology when I got back and all the other stuff, but who knows? Anyway.

[User] Yeah, I think we a tremendously influenced by our experience. Tremendously.

[Assistant] Know, I know maybe this isn't the place to put that in, but I went and watched those that 20, 20 thing on the Internet. And, you know, they're saying, you know, because they've made a big ballyhoo about how Peace Corps training was now mostly done in country. And and we we did we it's not done like we did it. But, you know, from what it sounds like, maybe it sounds like they're not really doing much training anymore.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I saw that. I thought it that thing, you know, have you continued have any involvement with. No, but I have had plenty of involvement with Hispanics.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. I haven't really had continued involvement with Bolivia except for that trip we took. But I mean, nine years in South and Central America, you know, since. And probably the reason I went into to an apology when I got back and all the other stuff, but who knows? Anyway.

[User] Yeah, I think we a tremendously influenced by our experience. Tremendously.

[Assistant] Know, I know maybe this isn't the place to put that in, but I went and watched those that 20, 20 thing on the Internet. And, you know, they're saying, you know, because they've made a big ballyhoo about how Peace Corps training was now mostly done in country. And and we we did we it's not done like we did it. But, you know, from what it sounds like, maybe it sounds like they're not really doing much training anymore.

[User] I don’t think they are.

[Assistant] Because, you know, they talk to us about how to present yourself to people and about where not to go and all the things you should and shouldn't do. And listening to what people there tell you, I mean, I was thinking about because they were talking about these volunteers that have been raped and they were talking about just arriving in this girl saying she was walking out. This was in Bangladesh. And all these guys that will you know, we would not have even gone out by ourselves. Because we were told that this wasn't cool to do, you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think we a tremendously influenced by our experience. Tremendously.

[Assistant] Know, I know maybe this isn't the place to put that in, but I went and watched those that 20, 20 thing on the Internet. And, you know, they're saying, you know, because they've made a big ballyhoo about how Peace Corps training was now mostly done in country. And and we we did we it's not done like we did it. But, you know, from what it sounds like, maybe it sounds like they're not really doing much training anymore.

[User] I don’t think they are.

[Assistant] Because, you know, they talk to us about how to present yourself to people and about where not to go and all the things you should and shouldn't do. And listening to what people there tell you, I mean, I was thinking about because they were talking about these volunteers that have been raped and they were talking about just arriving in this girl saying she was walking out. This was in Bangladesh. And all these guys that will you know, we would not have even gone out by ourselves. Because we were told that this wasn't cool to do, you know?

[User] And so we are in a generation. And if you told us that we didn't do it. Yeah. I remember being in a classroom in Ballport where this girl had gone to Egypt and they told her not to go out and them and then they go on because the other women in the community would stop her and she went out and got stoned to death. But I had to run back to the hotel. Yeah. From the past to come out. Right. Right. Well, I did it anyway.

[Assistant] Well, the other thing I was I was thinking that was different for us and for some of the more recent groups is that very few of the volunteers really live by themselves. A lot of them live with family or, you know, they had roommates or whatever, you know, and I it was Latin America really wasn't the place that you could put women alone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think they are.

[Assistant] Because, you know, they talk to us about how to present yourself to people and about where not to go and all the things you should and shouldn't do. And listening to what people there tell you, I mean, I was thinking about because they were talking about these volunteers that have been raped and they were talking about just arriving in this girl saying she was walking out. This was in Bangladesh. And all these guys that will you know, we would not have even gone out by ourselves. Because we were told that this wasn't cool to do, you know?

[User] And so we are in a generation. And if you told us that we didn't do it. Yeah. I remember being in a classroom in Ballport where this girl had gone to Egypt and they told her not to go out and them and then they go on because the other women in the community would stop her and she went out and got stoned to death. But I had to run back to the hotel. Yeah. From the past to come out. Right. Right. Well, I did it anyway.

[Assistant] Well, the other thing I was I was thinking that was different for us and for some of the more recent groups is that very few of the volunteers really live by themselves. A lot of them live with family or, you know, they had roommates or whatever, you know, and I it was Latin America really wasn't the place that you could put women alone.

[User] I loved the 20-20 thing. I thought she slept in there by herself and I would make sure that at the end of, well I don't know.

[Assistant] Well Rose, do you have anything else that you would like to say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so we are in a generation. And if you told us that we didn't do it. Yeah. I remember being in a classroom in Ballport where this girl had gone to Egypt and they told her not to go out and them and then they go on because the other women in the community would stop her and she went out and got stoned to death. But I had to run back to the hotel. Yeah. From the past to come out. Right. Right. Well, I did it anyway.

[Assistant] Well, the other thing I was I was thinking that was different for us and for some of the more recent groups is that very few of the volunteers really live by themselves. A lot of them live with family or, you know, they had roommates or whatever, you know, and I it was Latin America really wasn't the place that you could put women alone.

[User] I loved the 20-20 thing. I thought she slept in there by herself and I would make sure that at the end of, well I don't know.

[Assistant] Well Rose, do you have anything else that you would like to say?

[User] I think I said everything and I appreciate the chance to say it. I wanted to say that spite of the project, I'm so grateful to you for that. Well, I mean, I will be I think that over here is really, really important. Yeah, well, want know I was just dying right now just before I saw and I thought, oh yeah. I mean, right in the center of the fiftieth anniversary. Well next year. Right.

[Assistant] Yes, yes it is. Well, the thing that I have been so impressed with is the esprit de corps with our group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I loved the 20-20 thing. I thought she slept in there by herself and I would make sure that at the end of, well I don't know.

[Assistant] Well Rose, do you have anything else that you would like to say?

[User] I think I said everything and I appreciate the chance to say it. I wanted to say that spite of the project, I'm so grateful to you for that. Well, I mean, I will be I think that over here is really, really important. Yeah, well, want know I was just dying right now just before I saw and I thought, oh yeah. I mean, right in the center of the fiftieth anniversary. Well next year. Right.

[Assistant] Yes, yes it is. Well, the thing that I have been so impressed with is the esprit de corps with our group.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Forty years later and when we had that last reunion, there were like almost twenty people that were the former volunteers that were there excluding that other people, you know. Oh that's amazing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] Forty years later and when we had that last reunion, there were like almost twenty people that were the former volunteers that were there excluding that other people, you know. Oh that's amazing.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] And again, I'm not going to any I'm so sorry. I got everything right working at the at the place so I'm going to end it all up around here. I got go home and I thought I would past the people. I want it back.

[Assistant] Well that was that was different for me because I didn't go to her. I went to a show before the volunteers got there because I but I tried to interview all the guys I could get. So I pretty much stayed in my hotel room and interviewed people, which was really interesting because I didn't know a lot of the things they had been doing either, you know, so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] And again, I'm not going to any I'm so sorry. I got everything right working at the at the place so I'm going to end it all up around here. I got go home and I thought I would past the people. I want it back.

[Assistant] Well that was that was different for me because I didn't go to her. I went to a show before the volunteers got there because I but I tried to interview all the guys I could get. So I pretty much stayed in my hotel room and interviewed people, which was really interesting because I didn't know a lot of the things they had been doing either, you know, so.

[User] Or what they’ve done since. They really don’t talk about that much.

[Assistant] No, they don't. All right. Well, I'm going to I'm going to cut this off now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From 89? Well, of course, the first day is a preparing-to-rendezvous day. It takes us two days to finally meet up with the Station. So I remember, you know, your biggest activity is post-insertion activities. You’re getting your suit off. You’re configuring the vehicle. You’re getting ready for bed. You’re cleaning up the entire middeck area. I say cleaning it--organizing it, so that when you start the next day’s activities, you’re not worrying about finding things. You’re not getting behind the time line.\n\n So the first day is hectic, but we had trained that several times. Everybody knew what they were supposed to do. I thought it was reasonably well organized, so that we got to bed on time, and the next day, we got up on time. I don’t remember being tired. That was going to be our docking day.\n\n Docking went extremely well. Terry’s an excellent pilot; did a great job. Everything was pretty much nominal. I’ll have to go back through my notes. I remember that there was something--Mike [Michael P.] Anderson and I were working the docking module in operations, it seems to me there was something there, but I can’t remember now what it was. But nothing that was critical enough to impede normal operations. Opened the hatch, did the television, and started docked operations.

[Assistant] Did you exchange gifts?

[User] Yes, we did. We did that all in the base block, which is their equivalent service module, at the table.

[Assistant] Do you remember what you exchanged?

[User] Good question. As I recall, it might have been some models or pictures we signed. That’s a little fuzzy to me. See, when I talked about dividing tasks, I wasn’t in charge of gifts. So I was probably worrying about something else at that time and just showed up in time for the camera and lights and this, and then the commanders exchanged the gifts. I probably didn’t even see what they were. [Laughs]

[Assistant] So what were you in charge of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, we hope that--I was very religious about it, because I know that we had benefited from it, from past flights.

[Assistant] I understand on this flight you were working on telemedicine. What is telemedicine?

[User] Yes. Well, it’s what’s called the Telemedicine Instrument Package, TIPS, I think it was. What it was was basically a suitcase that in that suitcase included all the equipment to do a physical exam with the data connected to the Shuttle communications system, the downlink system, so all the data went to the flight surgeons in mission control. That’s sort of what telemedicine is.\n\n Telemedicine is not a new concept. I mean, UTMB [University of Texas Medical Branch] down in Galveston [Texas] does diagnostics medicine on people all over the country, even in prison populations. What was new was doing it from the Shuttle with a multiple hops involved, satellite hops. So we could hook up an EKG [Electrocardiogram]. We could send stethoscope sounds down to the ground. We actually had small cameras. You could do eye exams. You could do skin exams. So there were a number of things. That was a Pathfinder piece of instrumentation that we wanted to mature for both Space Station as well as for exploration.

[Assistant] Did every member of the crew participate?

[User] No. [Laughs] We had two crew medical officers on board, myself and Terry, so we actually set it up. We did an exam, a full exam, on each other, and then I think we might have had--maybe Mike came in. I don’t recall who else got maybe partial exams.

[Assistant] Before the flight, did you go to some medical training or meet with some physicians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, it’s what’s called the Telemedicine Instrument Package, TIPS, I think it was. What it was was basically a suitcase that in that suitcase included all the equipment to do a physical exam with the data connected to the Shuttle communications system, the downlink system, so all the data went to the flight surgeons in mission control. That’s sort of what telemedicine is.\n\n Telemedicine is not a new concept. I mean, UTMB [University of Texas Medical Branch] down in Galveston [Texas] does diagnostics medicine on people all over the country, even in prison populations. What was new was doing it from the Shuttle with a multiple hops involved, satellite hops. So we could hook up an EKG [Electrocardiogram]. We could send stethoscope sounds down to the ground. We actually had small cameras. You could do eye exams. You could do skin exams. So there were a number of things. That was a Pathfinder piece of instrumentation that we wanted to mature for both Space Station as well as for exploration.

[Assistant] Did every member of the crew participate?

[User] No. [Laughs] We had two crew medical officers on board, myself and Terry, so we actually set it up. We did an exam, a full exam, on each other, and then I think we might have had--maybe Mike came in. I don’t recall who else got maybe partial exams.

[Assistant] Before the flight, did you go to some medical training or meet with some physicians?

[User] Well, we actually were trained on this very package, the training version of it, here at JSC by flight surgeons and by engineers. So, yes, we were trained by the instructors as part of our medical training.

[Assistant] I understand that Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin called on board this flight. Do you remember that phone call, and what occurred?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. [Laughs] We had two crew medical officers on board, myself and Terry, so we actually set it up. We did an exam, a full exam, on each other, and then I think we might have had--maybe Mike came in. I don’t recall who else got maybe partial exams.

[Assistant] Before the flight, did you go to some medical training or meet with some physicians?

[User] Well, we actually were trained on this very package, the training version of it, here at JSC by flight surgeons and by engineers. So, yes, we were trained by the instructors as part of our medical training.

[Assistant] I understand that Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin called on board this flight. Do you remember that phone call, and what occurred?

[User] I think he talked to the commander. He was probably up on the flight deck, and I was probably someplace else. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Making sure those boxes are checked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we actually were trained on this very package, the training version of it, here at JSC by flight surgeons and by engineers. So, yes, we were trained by the instructors as part of our medical training.

[Assistant] I understand that Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin called on board this flight. Do you remember that phone call, and what occurred?

[User] I think he talked to the commander. He was probably up on the flight deck, and I was probably someplace else. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Making sure those boxes are checked.

[User] Maybe it’s a memory thing, but I don’t remember it precisely.

[Assistant] I also read that you paid tribute to the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Skylab Project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think he talked to the commander. He was probably up on the flight deck, and I was probably someplace else. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Making sure those boxes are checked.

[User] Maybe it’s a memory thing, but I don’t remember it precisely.

[Assistant] I also read that you paid tribute to the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Skylab Project.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall what you said?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe it’s a memory thing, but I don’t remember it precisely.

[Assistant] I also read that you paid tribute to the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Skylab Project.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall what you said?

[User] Well, I have it in my notebook. It was very intentional, because I felt that the world was forgetting about Skylab, and yet it was my earliest experience here at the Johnson Space Center. I came in as a Flight Controller. I started working Skylab reentry as a Guidance and Navigation Controller. Of course, it wasn’t crewed at that time. We brought it back into the Earth’s atmosphere in 1979.\n\n But here we had the country’s first Space Station. It set three world records, and the longest, eighty-four days. The book called Biomedical Results of Skylab, which really documented, for the first time, different physiological changes in the body, became a world standard. Even the Russians were using it to extend their missions on Salyut; at least, one of their flight surgeons told me that.\n\n Yet here this great program was sort of missing from the American consciousness, as I learned going out to give speeches. I was a great admirer of all those crew members, and, of course, Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin was still with Wyle Labs [Laboratories] at that time. So I felt it was appropriate, since we were getting ready to build a Space Station in 1998, to also give tribute to the Skylab crews and the mission.

[Assistant] You mentioned your notebook. Is that something that you would keep on every mission, or is this something that you’ve compiled since you’ve been an astronaut?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall what you said?

[User] Well, I have it in my notebook. It was very intentional, because I felt that the world was forgetting about Skylab, and yet it was my earliest experience here at the Johnson Space Center. I came in as a Flight Controller. I started working Skylab reentry as a Guidance and Navigation Controller. Of course, it wasn’t crewed at that time. We brought it back into the Earth’s atmosphere in 1979.\n\n But here we had the country’s first Space Station. It set three world records, and the longest, eighty-four days. The book called Biomedical Results of Skylab, which really documented, for the first time, different physiological changes in the body, became a world standard. Even the Russians were using it to extend their missions on Salyut; at least, one of their flight surgeons told me that.\n\n Yet here this great program was sort of missing from the American consciousness, as I learned going out to give speeches. I was a great admirer of all those crew members, and, of course, Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin was still with Wyle Labs [Laboratories] at that time. So I felt it was appropriate, since we were getting ready to build a Space Station in 1998, to also give tribute to the Skylab crews and the mission.

[Assistant] You mentioned your notebook. Is that something that you would keep on every mission, or is this something that you’ve compiled since you’ve been an astronaut?

[User] No, we each take a notebook up with us. It’s kind of personal mind-ticklers, you know, or things that we want to make sure we don’t forget that aren’t part of the formal Flight Data File, we call it, and notes and that type of thing. We get to keep it. It’s one of those few things we get to keep. So I have, I think, the last three missions, we had those implemented, and I have all three of mine.

[Assistant] What a great memento.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I have it in my notebook. It was very intentional, because I felt that the world was forgetting about Skylab, and yet it was my earliest experience here at the Johnson Space Center. I came in as a Flight Controller. I started working Skylab reentry as a Guidance and Navigation Controller. Of course, it wasn’t crewed at that time. We brought it back into the Earth’s atmosphere in 1979.\n\n But here we had the country’s first Space Station. It set three world records, and the longest, eighty-four days. The book called Biomedical Results of Skylab, which really documented, for the first time, different physiological changes in the body, became a world standard. Even the Russians were using it to extend their missions on Salyut; at least, one of their flight surgeons told me that.\n\n Yet here this great program was sort of missing from the American consciousness, as I learned going out to give speeches. I was a great admirer of all those crew members, and, of course, Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin was still with Wyle Labs [Laboratories] at that time. So I felt it was appropriate, since we were getting ready to build a Space Station in 1998, to also give tribute to the Skylab crews and the mission.

[Assistant] You mentioned your notebook. Is that something that you would keep on every mission, or is this something that you’ve compiled since you’ve been an astronaut?

[User] No, we each take a notebook up with us. It’s kind of personal mind-ticklers, you know, or things that we want to make sure we don’t forget that aren’t part of the formal Flight Data File, we call it, and notes and that type of thing. We get to keep it. It’s one of those few things we get to keep. So I have, I think, the last three missions, we had those implemented, and I have all three of mine.

[Assistant] What a great memento.

[User] So, yes, I had all my notes, what I was going to read in that.

[Assistant] Do you have any other memories of the mission itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They actually did all the training in the U.S. Those two experiments were--let’s see, I believe the guppy experiment was on the middeck, and the Japanese experiment was in SPACEHAB, and they came and trained us in the U.S. I’ve been to both those space centers, of course, the German and Japanese space centers, but I didn’t train there on these experiments.

[Assistant] Any other memories from the flight? Anything significant or funny?

[User] Great crew, absolutely outstanding crew. I think Terry’s one of the best commanders I’ve worked with. I’ve always had outstanding commanders, but I thought that he did a really good job of working with the crew and the Russians. Let’s see. Everything was successful. We had a successful ten-day flight. No losses of any of the research. We did fix the VOA, and we got it up and running, got the experimental data they needed. So I was very satisfied with the flight. It went well.

[Assistant] I’m glad to hear that. And I’m glad to hear that you’re hoping to get another flight.

[User] Not in the NASA system. [Laughs] I think I’d have to make my own vehicle to get a flight at this point, but, you know, I can stay forever optimistic.

[Assistant] Well, I’d like to talk about your role as Acting Deputy Director of Flight Crew Operations. How did you find out about that position, and how were you offered it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had programs that I actually tried to put more light onto, because I wasn’t the Education Division. I supported them. I made sure people knew it was there, and then I started some programs. I started the Mars Settlement Design Competition, which brought in students from all over Houston for a weekend in Building 9, and then we exported it to White Sands [Test Facility, Las Cruces, New Mexico], and they brought in students from all over New Mexico, including the Four Corners Indian Reservation, which was a lot of fun.\n\n Then my other charge from Mr. Abbey was to grow the KC-135 student program, so I was out growing that. I think we finally maxed out our capability there and got funding for it, for the airplane. Had a good competition for grants, and then I would go out to Ellington and welcome them when I could.

[Assistant] Did you work at all with the Co-op Office?

[User] I supported it, but I tell you what, the Co-op Office is so successful, they turn away candidates. So I would go to their welcome sometimes. Whenever they asked me to come down and give a speech about exploration or something about spaceflight, I always did that and would try to fulfill all the invitations from the Educational Division, where it came to talk to the young people.

[Assistant] I also understand that you were coordinating an effort to apply NASA expertise to solve some of Texas’ water problems. Could you talk about that?

[User] Oh, how did you find that out? [Laughter]

[Assistant] I actually saw a nomination that you had, and that was listed, so I thought I’d ask you about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Interestingly enough, as I recall, that was a Saturday morning, if I’m not mistaken. I was going to come in. I was still on General Howell’s staff. But he’d just taken over, and I wasn’t sure whether I could still get into--I usually used my badge to get into the Director’s suite there. I wasn’t sure it was still good, because he was still manipulating his staff. So I decided to watch it from home, and that’s where I saw it.

[Assistant] After you heard that they had lost communication with the Shuttle, did you come on-site?

[User] Yes, I came on-site immediately. Actually, you know, it was one of the first times I had not been in the Director’s suite looking at all the displays, most of which had to do with thermal protection systems, because that’s what I came from. I’d always worried that the next accident wouldn’t be a launch; it would be an entry. But I also knew the tiles were pretty robust. But I didn’t know that we’d even been having a trend with this ET [External Tank] bipod, which is not factory-laid foam.\n\n So I immediately came in. You know, a couple of weeks later, they were interested in doing tile repair, so I had worked on that back in 1978, ’79. I brought in all the papers and documents I had on that and gave those to Engineering.

[Assistant] Did you play any role at all in the investigation or the recovery efforts?

[User] Only from a resource point of view. I knew a lot, still knew a lot, of the people in the field, so I provided some names and addresses to the CAIB [Columbia Accident Investigation Board] on an Excel spreadsheet.

[Assistant] You’ve changed positions quite a bit lately. In the fall of 2003, you were promoted to be the Deputy Associate Director for Biological Sciences and Applications. What did that require?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I came on-site immediately. Actually, you know, it was one of the first times I had not been in the Director’s suite looking at all the displays, most of which had to do with thermal protection systems, because that’s what I came from. I’d always worried that the next accident wouldn’t be a launch; it would be an entry. But I also knew the tiles were pretty robust. But I didn’t know that we’d even been having a trend with this ET [External Tank] bipod, which is not factory-laid foam.\n\n So I immediately came in. You know, a couple of weeks later, they were interested in doing tile repair, so I had worked on that back in 1978, ’79. I brought in all the papers and documents I had on that and gave those to Engineering.

[Assistant] Did you play any role at all in the investigation or the recovery efforts?

[User] Only from a resource point of view. I knew a lot, still knew a lot, of the people in the field, so I provided some names and addresses to the CAIB [Columbia Accident Investigation Board] on an Excel spreadsheet.

[Assistant] You’ve changed positions quite a bit lately. In the fall of 2003, you were promoted to be the Deputy Associate Director for Biological Sciences and Applications. What did that require?

[User] Well, I went from being a staff position to a line manager. This was an opportunity for me. I felt, if I was going to continue a career with NASA, that I needed to get back into line management experience. So Space and Life Sciences took a very successful Cellular Biotechnology Program that had been flying on the Shuttle and on Mir, and decided to put it into a new division. They brought in, as the new director, Dr. Neal [R.] Pellis, who was the principal investigator on this and also had been the chief scientist for Space Station at NASA Headquarters [Washington, D.C.], and asked me to be his deputy.

[Assistant] What were some of your job duties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only from a resource point of view. I knew a lot, still knew a lot, of the people in the field, so I provided some names and addresses to the CAIB [Columbia Accident Investigation Board] on an Excel spreadsheet.

[Assistant] You’ve changed positions quite a bit lately. In the fall of 2003, you were promoted to be the Deputy Associate Director for Biological Sciences and Applications. What did that require?

[User] Well, I went from being a staff position to a line manager. This was an opportunity for me. I felt, if I was going to continue a career with NASA, that I needed to get back into line management experience. So Space and Life Sciences took a very successful Cellular Biotechnology Program that had been flying on the Shuttle and on Mir, and decided to put it into a new division. They brought in, as the new director, Dr. Neal [R.] Pellis, who was the principal investigator on this and also had been the chief scientist for Space Station at NASA Headquarters [Washington, D.C.], and asked me to be his deputy.

[Assistant] What were some of your job duties?

[User] Well, my first job duty was to implement the Quality Management System [QMS]. Now you’re starting to get into management, you know. [Laughter] So that meant QMS has with it certain standard requirements --developing metrics, our reporting packages, you know, safety laboratory inspections, budget, outreach, communications with Headquarters, all of the above.

[Assistant] Quite a change from your engineering duties early on in your career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I went from being a staff position to a line manager. This was an opportunity for me. I felt, if I was going to continue a career with NASA, that I needed to get back into line management experience. So Space and Life Sciences took a very successful Cellular Biotechnology Program that had been flying on the Shuttle and on Mir, and decided to put it into a new division. They brought in, as the new director, Dr. Neal [R.] Pellis, who was the principal investigator on this and also had been the chief scientist for Space Station at NASA Headquarters [Washington, D.C.], and asked me to be his deputy.

[Assistant] What were some of your job duties?

[User] Well, my first job duty was to implement the Quality Management System [QMS]. Now you’re starting to get into management, you know. [Laughter] So that meant QMS has with it certain standard requirements --developing metrics, our reporting packages, you know, safety laboratory inspections, budget, outreach, communications with Headquarters, all of the above.

[Assistant] Quite a change from your engineering duties early on in your career.

[User] Well, I actually used my engineering duties. It was a good marriage, because Dr. Pellis, he was the scientist. He’s the cell biologist, an immunologist. But our major task was not just doing the research--we had fifty university researchers on grants--but building a new Space Station facility called the BTF, the Biotech Facility. That was a major, multimillion-dollar project with Wyle, so while that was in process, we had a lot of project management reviews, budget reviews, hardware reviews. So in terms of the QMS, those are the things that Neal would sort of push off at me. They were all engineering-type things, so I was able to use my engineering.

[Assistant] What were some of the other assignments that you had after working on QMS?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my first job duty was to implement the Quality Management System [QMS]. Now you’re starting to get into management, you know. [Laughter] So that meant QMS has with it certain standard requirements --developing metrics, our reporting packages, you know, safety laboratory inspections, budget, outreach, communications with Headquarters, all of the above.

[Assistant] Quite a change from your engineering duties early on in your career.

[User] Well, I actually used my engineering duties. It was a good marriage, because Dr. Pellis, he was the scientist. He’s the cell biologist, an immunologist. But our major task was not just doing the research--we had fifty university researchers on grants--but building a new Space Station facility called the BTF, the Biotech Facility. That was a major, multimillion-dollar project with Wyle, so while that was in process, we had a lot of project management reviews, budget reviews, hardware reviews. So in terms of the QMS, those are the things that Neal would sort of push off at me. They were all engineering-type things, so I was able to use my engineering.

[Assistant] What were some of the other assignments that you had after working on QMS?

[User] Well, I’ll tell you, that’s a big one. Well, gosh, you know, kind of day-to-day--that’s a big assignment. The rest is day-to-day, you know, budget, management, personnel, everything a manager works on to get a project developed.

[Assistant] Now, you’ve since moved on. You’re now the Associate Director for Technology Integration and Risk Management.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fire and collision.

[Assistant] I was just wondering, your impressions of Mir from the first time to the second time you were there, and what maybe some of the differences were with the Station itself?

[User] Well, of course, there was another module on board by the time we went back, and one that was closed up. [Laughs] So it looked different from a configuration point of view, but it looked pretty familiar inside, except the U.S.-outfitted module was new. I can’t say there was a big difference. It was the same vehicle. Sometimes it had the same smell. I couldn’t tell, from a physical point of view, the biggest difference. Does that make sense?

[Assistant]
Yes. I was just curious.

Is there anything you think we should talk about that we haven’t covered? I know we’ve had four sessions.

[User] Four sessions.

[Assistant] And they’ve spanned quite a length of time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Sure. [Tape change.]

[Assistant] I think this is a good, just a contrast, since, like you said, you did see both sides and watched everything evolve.

[User] It does make me mad at the politicians, though, when they all take credit for the economy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Especially around election-time.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] They're taking credit for everything good that's going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It does make me mad at the politicians, though, when they all take credit for the economy. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Especially around election-time.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] They're taking credit for everything good that's going on.

[User] They're breaking their elbows patting themselves on the back. But I guess that's the way is it. So what else would you like?

[Assistant]
First, I'm going to ask Kevin if he has any questions, and then I'll follow-up with a couple.

I did have one sort of a general question. You'd mentioned at the beginning that you basically grew up with the space program, you came in when you were very young and have been a part of it all your life. So I guess what I was wondering is, how did you personally change going through this as you entered it as a young man and grew with experience in time? And then how did the agency change going through that same sort of life cycle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, I hope so. But somebody's going to have to take it as his job to make it work, to make it happen. It won't just appear.

[Assistant] Can't come by itself.

[User] It won't just come by itself.

[Assistant] Well, looking back over your whole career with the space program, what would you consider—and I know you've had many—your biggest challenge? And then in retrospect also your most significant accomplishment.

[User] Biggest challenge. Well, I mean, it's hard to pick one.

[Assistant] I can understand that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did. They all did.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier that, looking back, you probably wouldn't have changed much, wouldn't have done things much differently, but looking back, would you have imagined where your career would lead you?

[User] You mean—

[Assistant] From when you first started at Lewis.

[User] No. I mean, absolutely, I mean, even when we got involved, even when I got involved in the Mercury project, I mean, I had just not stopped to think about where it was going to lead. I mean, we had a couple of flights scheduled, orbital flights, four or five, for the Mercury project, and I must admit, I mean, it's a symptom of youth, perhaps, but I wasn't terribly engaged in thinking about what's going to happen after this. I mean, I just don't recall being very occupied with that. We were so involved in the doing of this exciting thing that we had called Project Mercury, that I didn't give very much thought to what was going to come after that.\n\n Then the next major challenges over the next couple of decades of my life were just handed to us, I mean, the "Go to the Moon" from President [John F.] Kennedy, which then led us to Gemini and Apollo and all that, and then the Shuttle decision was made in the seventies, as was the decision to do the Apollo-Soyuz project. Then the Space Station decision. So those were all kind of decisions made by other people out of my hands, but that created a future that I have worked in for forty years. But on the front end I had no imaginings of anything like it turned out to be. Just absolutely none.\n\n I mean, had I written down what happened and written it down in 1960, saying this is what's going to happen, we all would have laughed at it, saying it can't be like that. But that's the way it turned out. So I was lucky.

[Assistant] We are very lucky to have you come in and share so many of your thoughts and your experiences with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean—

[Assistant] From when you first started at Lewis.

[User] No. I mean, absolutely, I mean, even when we got involved, even when I got involved in the Mercury project, I mean, I had just not stopped to think about where it was going to lead. I mean, we had a couple of flights scheduled, orbital flights, four or five, for the Mercury project, and I must admit, I mean, it's a symptom of youth, perhaps, but I wasn't terribly engaged in thinking about what's going to happen after this. I mean, I just don't recall being very occupied with that. We were so involved in the doing of this exciting thing that we had called Project Mercury, that I didn't give very much thought to what was going to come after that.\n\n Then the next major challenges over the next couple of decades of my life were just handed to us, I mean, the "Go to the Moon" from President [John F.] Kennedy, which then led us to Gemini and Apollo and all that, and then the Shuttle decision was made in the seventies, as was the decision to do the Apollo-Soyuz project. Then the Space Station decision. So those were all kind of decisions made by other people out of my hands, but that created a future that I have worked in for forty years. But on the front end I had no imaginings of anything like it turned out to be. Just absolutely none.\n\n I mean, had I written down what happened and written it down in 1960, saying this is what's going to happen, we all would have laughed at it, saying it can't be like that. But that's the way it turned out. So I was lucky.

[Assistant] We are very lucky to have you come in and share so many of your thoughts and your experiences with us.

[User] Well, thank you, Carol. It's been fun doing it. I appreciate the opportunity.

[Assistant] It's been a lot of fun for us, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I guess most organizations do some soul searching to start with. They figure out why do they exist, what are they supposed to be doing. For those of us in government, it can be clear because our mission and what we're supposed to be doing is defined by law and by regulation. So, then a strategic plan says, okay, this is the basis, this is what we're supposed to be doing, what are our goals and how are we going to get there? So, you establish goals, as far as I know there are usually 4 or 5 goals, and then you establish pathways, or initiatives to get you there.

[Assistant] When you first got to the National Archives, what kind-of training did you receive?

[User] It was very much hands on, person-to-person, kind-of training. I don't remember at first going to any training classes, although I was sent to some national conferences and in my experience at the National Archives, up till the recent budget problems, NARA was very good about sending people to a professional conference, maybe once a year, and then sometimes maybe something else that you're interested in as well.

[Assistant] Which conferences have you attended? Which ones have you liked, can you speak more to the conferences?

[User] Well for archivists, the main one is the SAA, the Society of American Archivists annual conference. It's our colleagues, it's our professionals, traditionally it's a lot of private corporations and academic, a lot of academic. In the last five years or so they've recognized they have a lot of government archivists too, so they actually are doing more to take advantage of that knowledge that we have, and the increase in that population. We also around the country have local archival groups, I'm a member of MARAC the Mid-Atlantic Regional Archives Conference. Today people tend to go more to, they go to those, but they also do more technical things like IT conferences and yes, that's it.

[Assistant] What successes come to mind when you think of your time here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. So, with those records systems analysis and every day when either the appraisal archivist or the people at Suitland, at the Federal Records Center, talk to people in Federal agencies, people always want to do the right thing. They care about the work they're doing. They care about doing it to the best of their ability, but also being aware of the budget and tax payer dollars being spent. So, again, I'm really proud to be a Federal employee and to know that this is a service. It's Federal service, and nobody went into Federal service to get rich. A few of us managed to get higher grades and do okay, but that's not why we went into it.

[Assistant] And that transitions perfectly into my next question. What aspects of the work do you enjoy?

[User] Well, the cliché, I'm a people person, so I always like the part where I'm interacting either with my colleagues, or with the people at the Federal agencies, or our customers, our researchers. Either online or I've worked more with the people who come into the actual research rooms. In one of my lives here I was the Director of Access Programs, that's pre-transformation. And so, I would get involved as there were problems, and sometimes when there were praise. When we had visitors, people wanting tours, I got to do that and I love that.

[Assistant] For clarification, could you just go through the different positions that you've held here and describe what they were?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Kind-of like an oral resume. Or, you have a paper.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Glad I can help.

[Assistant] Which I don't always stick to but can you describe a typical day in your unit? So, this one.

[User] As Chief of Staff there are certain things that I do or coordinate. Policy, for instance, when NARA is developing new policy and it has to be vetted by the different offices, I get involved with that. I've been the coordinator for so many of the initiatives that come and hopefully go, like plain language and hiring exceptions. And another big area is internal controls. NARA has in the last couple of years really invigorated its internal controls program, so I coordinate those reports with the five programs within Agency Services. And, oh, strategic planning. What are we going to do next year, what are we going to do the year after that—I work with the five program offices and Agency Services on that. And then I'm just here whenever something comes up. So, I'm on the National Safety and Health Committee. And it was really important to be active in that because most of the accidents happen in the Records Centers, so I wanted to be part of the group that was looking at, okay, we need to work on ladder safety, we need to get better ladders. We need to train people. This year in 2015 the emphasis is on lifting, so how do we get the videos and the training out to the people? I've also been involved in the continuity of operations planning as well.

[Assistant] What are some accidents that have happened, increase the need for that?

[User] Well, as it turned out, we had bought ladders some time ago, I don't remember how many years ago, that had a flaw in the welding. So, as people were stepping on the ladder with a box that weighs 50-60 pounds, the step would break, so people would fall off the ladder with the box. We also have bad habits. When you work in the Records Center sometimes you know you could just kind-of climb up one or two steps, or one or two shelves and put that box on the shelf. The shelves aren't designed to be climbed on.

[Assistant] That sounds terrifying.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as it turned out, we had bought ladders some time ago, I don't remember how many years ago, that had a flaw in the welding. So, as people were stepping on the ladder with a box that weighs 50-60 pounds, the step would break, so people would fall off the ladder with the box. We also have bad habits. When you work in the Records Center sometimes you know you could just kind-of climb up one or two steps, or one or two shelves and put that box on the shelf. The shelves aren't designed to be climbed on.

[Assistant] That sounds terrifying.

[User] Yes. When I first started at Suitland, I didn't have ladder training, and the shelving is 15 feet tall, the ladders are 15 feet tall, except you're not supposed to stand on the top one and I kind-of did to get the box where it needed to go, and I was scared to death and then I realized later, that was the wrong thing to do.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.

[User] Yeah. So, I could have been one of those statistics.

[Assistant] A theme that's come up, moving away from dangers in the Archives, a theme that's come up repeatedly is the transition to newer technologies in the 21st century and more digitization of records and then also records that come in digitally that were never on paper. Can you speak to technological changes over the course of your time at NARA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you? Excellent. Excellent. And now it's such a part of what we do.

[Assistant] What was the response to the first blog post ever?

[User] There was more of an excitement that we did it, you know? It was not that big a deal in terms of content, but we did get it out to agencies and they saw it. It was really a big deal because our head of security was really anti-doing it. And then the lawyers, I forget what you call it, but there's a whole bunch of legal requirements for doing something like this, to use different software, or permissions and things like that. So, it was really a barrier that we broke through. And then it just kind- of exploded with people doing blogs.

[Assistant] How do you view the progression of that online outreach?

[User] I think it's very critical. As we know, as I've been told and as we know, we reach far more people online then we do people walking through the door or even attending conferences. And I guess now we transitioned to digitization. I'm a real proponent of appropriate digitization. And I'll stop there on that.

[Assistant] What exactly does that mean though? I'm supposed to ask clarification of terms.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it's very critical. As we know, as I've been told and as we know, we reach far more people online then we do people walking through the door or even attending conferences. And I guess now we transitioned to digitization. I'm a real proponent of appropriate digitization. And I'll stop there on that.

[Assistant] What exactly does that mean though? I'm supposed to ask clarification of terms.

[User] Of course. In our strategic plan it says we will digitize everything.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And if we accept that that is a stretch goal, I'm perfectly content with it. I do know that we have many permanent records that should be the last thing we digitize, you know? There are limited resources and finances and we should certainly digitize the things that the public wants and asks for— the things we think they will want and ask for, but I'm not a proponent of digitize everything just because we can, because I don't think we can without perhaps taking our resources away from something else that's needed.

[Assistant] What are the priorities for what to digitize? Like both in your opinion and with the strategic plan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course. In our strategic plan it says we will digitize everything.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And if we accept that that is a stretch goal, I'm perfectly content with it. I do know that we have many permanent records that should be the last thing we digitize, you know? There are limited resources and finances and we should certainly digitize the things that the public wants and asks for— the things we think they will want and ask for, but I'm not a proponent of digitize everything just because we can, because I don't think we can without perhaps taking our resources away from something else that's needed.

[Assistant] What are the priorities for what to digitize? Like both in your opinion and with the strategic plan?

[User] I can't speak to what's in the strategic plan. I can speak to what I think the priorities are. I think our mission is to preserve the records that document citizen's rights, provide government accountability, and document the national experience. So those would be my priorities for what should be digitized. The next priority would be what we know are going to be heavily used. Which, when you come down to it, is either citizen's rights or genealogy. They are the big drivers. We have perhaps thousands of cubic feet of NEH grants, National Endowment for the Humanities grants, I don't really think we need to digitize them. We can digitize them on demand if somebody asks for them.

[Assistant] What are, you've mentioned a few, but what are some challenges that you've faced here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there's the big one, which comes back to digitization perhaps. The primacy of the web over in person research. Traditionally people come to the Archives to do research, and the focus and the attention was going to improve the experience of people who came into our buildings. Now we have recognized and addressed that by really building up our web presence and having our digitization strategies to try to get records digitized and online and make doing research online more possible. So that's another major change.

[Assistant] How do you view your time at the archives over all?

[User] I think what we do is so important, I think well, when I would teach classes, records management classes at Archives I, and in a break, I’d take some of the people who came from EPA or Agriculture, or whatever, and I was like, come with me. And we'd walk around the corner from the conference rooms, and there we were in the Rotunda. And there was the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. How cool is that, you know? I feel like I have ownership of that because it's our responsibility to take care of those. And then you have to realize that yes, those are our Charters of Freedom, but so many records today are being created that need to be taken care of and preserved. So maybe somebody there will be another Star Trek episode where they'll find an abandoned spacecraft and it will have a copy of, maybe it won't be the Constitution, but it will be some other declaration of rights or something, you know? Something really cool.

[Assistant] That just gave me chills.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Thank you so much for your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think what we do is so important, I think well, when I would teach classes, records management classes at Archives I, and in a break, I’d take some of the people who came from EPA or Agriculture, or whatever, and I was like, come with me. And we'd walk around the corner from the conference rooms, and there we were in the Rotunda. And there was the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. How cool is that, you know? I feel like I have ownership of that because it's our responsibility to take care of those. And then you have to realize that yes, those are our Charters of Freedom, but so many records today are being created that need to be taken care of and preserved. So maybe somebody there will be another Star Trek episode where they'll find an abandoned spacecraft and it will have a copy of, maybe it won't be the Constitution, but it will be some other declaration of rights or something, you know? Something really cool.

[Assistant] That just gave me chills.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Thank you so much for your time.

[User] Oh, you're welcome.

[Assistant] Congratulations again on your retirement.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Thank you so much for your time.

[User] Oh, you're welcome.

[Assistant] Congratulations again on your retirement.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And is there anything you would like to add to the interview, such as anecdotes, words of wisdom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you're welcome.

[Assistant] Congratulations again on your retirement.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] And is there anything you would like to add to the interview, such as anecdotes, words of wisdom?

[User] I don't think so.

[Assistant] Okay, well thank you again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Healdsburg, California. And we're in a motel here. And I'm interviewing Kathleen Snyder Cox, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Honduras from 1971 to 1973 in a public health program. Today is March 2nd, 2017. Hi, Kathleen.

[User] Hi.

[Assistant] Very good to meet you.

[User] Nice to meet you.

[Assistant] So, Kathleen, I'd like to know, before we talk about what you did in the Peace Corps, who were you, who you were before you joined the Peace Corps? Where were you born?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hi.

[Assistant] Very good to meet you.

[User] Nice to meet you.

[Assistant] So, Kathleen, I'd like to know, before we talk about what you did in the Peace Corps, who were you, who you were before you joined the Peace Corps? Where were you born?

[User] I was born in Portland, Oregon, but my family lived in Vancouver, Washington, which is across the Columbia River from Portland. So I was, the hospital was in Portland, but my family lived in Vancouver.

[Assistant] So you grew up in Vancouver then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nice to meet you.

[Assistant] So, Kathleen, I'd like to know, before we talk about what you did in the Peace Corps, who were you, who you were before you joined the Peace Corps? Where were you born?

[User] I was born in Portland, Oregon, but my family lived in Vancouver, Washington, which is across the Columbia River from Portland. So I was, the hospital was in Portland, but my family lived in Vancouver.

[Assistant] So you grew up in Vancouver then?

[User] Well, until I was 12 when we moved to Southern California, and then we moved back to Eastern Washington, to Pullman, when I was a junior in high school.

[Assistant] Oh, boy. Okay, so you have three distinct segments of your childhood. And who was in your family? Did you have siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, until I was 12 when we moved to Southern California, and then we moved back to Eastern Washington, to Pullman, when I was a junior in high school.

[Assistant] Oh, boy. Okay, so you have three distinct segments of your childhood. And who was in your family? Did you have siblings?

[User] I'm the oldest of seven.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] And my brother and I are only ten months apart. And then my sister is 13 months younger than my brother. And my next sister is 12 months younger than the one before her. So for a period of a month when my mother had a two, had two two year olds, a one year old and a new baby, and then after that.

[Assistant] Someone needs to give your mother a hug.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm the oldest of seven.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] And my brother and I are only ten months apart. And then my sister is 13 months younger than my brother. And my next sister is 12 months younger than the one before her. So for a period of a month when my mother had a two, had two two year olds, a one year old and a new baby, and then after that.

[Assistant] Someone needs to give your mother a hug.

[User] After that, the last three were more spread out.

[Assistant] Wow. Wow. So you and your siblings were very close?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my brother and I are only ten months apart. And then my sister is 13 months younger than my brother. And my next sister is 12 months younger than the one before her. So for a period of a month when my mother had a two, had two two year olds, a one year old and a new baby, and then after that.

[Assistant] Someone needs to give your mother a hug.

[User] After that, the last three were more spread out.

[Assistant] Wow. Wow. So you and your siblings were very close?

[User] We were very close. We still are very close.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Good. And you still got them all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were very close. We still are very close.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Good. And you still got them all?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How wonderful.

[User] My father was, both of my parents were teachers. And my father went in, then became an administrator. My mother, when she started having kids, didn't work anymore outside the home.

[Assistant] Yeah, she sure did work at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But your parents both had a college education.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How wonderful.

[User] My father was, both of my parents were teachers. And my father went in, then became an administrator. My mother, when she started having kids, didn't work anymore outside the home.

[Assistant] Yeah, she sure did work at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But your parents both had a college education.

[User] Yes, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so you went to public schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And when they got married, in those days, you know, you had to sign papers saying that the children would be raised Catholic. And so they, but they really were committed to public education. And in those days, people were told from the pulpit that was a sin to send your kids to public school. But they were committed to public education, except for, and we all went straight through public schools, except for one year when we had moved to Southern California. My dad went down like, I don't know, I think probably in September. And my mother stayed in Vancouver to sell the house with the seven kids and didn't go down. We went down around Christmastime, but my dad couldn't find a house that was big enough for all of us in Inglewood, which was where he had the job.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so he bought a duplex that was being built and had a door cut through it so that we lived in both halves of this duplex that was in Lenox, which, and the house was right directly under the flight path of LAX.

[Assistant] Oy.

[User] And it was a real, um, the schools were terrible. So we went to school there for a year and a half and then they put us one year in Catholic school until, and then they found a house in Inglewood and we moved into Inglewood and went just one year to the Inglewood schools. And then we moved back to eastern Washington.

[Assistant] Yeah. I'm, I'm trying to imagine your mother moving from Vancouver down to the Los Angeles area. There was eight people. How would you, you can't?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so he bought a duplex that was being built and had a door cut through it so that we lived in both halves of this duplex that was in Lenox, which, and the house was right directly under the flight path of LAX.

[Assistant] Oy.

[User] And it was a real, um, the schools were terrible. So we went to school there for a year and a half and then they put us one year in Catholic school until, and then they found a house in Inglewood and we moved into Inglewood and went just one year to the Inglewood schools. And then we moved back to eastern Washington.

[Assistant] Yeah. I'm, I'm trying to imagine your mother moving from Vancouver down to the Los Angeles area. There was eight people. How would you, you can't?

[User] There were nine. Nine. Well, yeah, there were eight people, nine with my dad.

[Assistant] Right. But if your dad wasn't, but he wasn't there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was a real, um, the schools were terrible. So we went to school there for a year and a half and then they put us one year in Catholic school until, and then they found a house in Inglewood and we moved into Inglewood and went just one year to the Inglewood schools. And then we moved back to eastern Washington.

[Assistant] Yeah. I'm, I'm trying to imagine your mother moving from Vancouver down to the Los Angeles area. There was eight people. How would you, you can't?

[User] There were nine. Nine. Well, yeah, there were eight people, nine with my dad.

[Assistant] Right. But if your dad wasn't, but he wasn't there.

[User] Well, he came home and then we, uh, when we actually did the move.

[Assistant] Okay, he was part of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were nine. Nine. Well, yeah, there were eight people, nine with my dad.

[Assistant] Right. But if your dad wasn't, but he wasn't there.

[User] Well, he came home and then we, uh, when we actually did the move.

[Assistant] Okay, he was part of it.

[User] But she was home for I think from September till December selling the house.

[Assistant] And taking care of babies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he came home and then we, uh, when we actually did the move.

[Assistant] Okay, he was part of it.

[User] But she was home for I think from September till December selling the house.

[Assistant] And taking care of babies.

[User] And taking care of us.

[Assistant] Incredible. But I'm imagining taking vacations with ten people, well, wait, nine, nine people in the family. You'd have to have a bus.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But she was home for I think from September till December selling the house.

[Assistant] And taking care of babies.

[User] And taking care of us.

[Assistant] Incredible. But I'm imagining taking vacations with ten people, well, wait, nine, nine people in the family. You'd have to have a bus.

[User] We had those, you remember those three seater station wagons?

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, with the way back. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had those, you remember those three seater station wagons?

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, with the way back. Yeah.

[User] And the seat faced backwards, the back seat faced backwards.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So, yeah. And we did take vacations, you know, occasionally we went camping. We went. They would rent like a place at the beach for a weekend. We certainly never took any elaborate vacations. We never stayed in, we never went to a resort or a hotel.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. But you went camping.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yeah. And we did take vacations, you know, occasionally we went camping. We went. They would rent like a place at the beach for a weekend. We certainly never took any elaborate vacations. We never stayed in, we never went to a resort or a hotel.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. But you went camping.

[User] We went camping a couple of times and rented places at the beach for weekends and visited. My dad's family came from Colorado and my mother's from Montana. So we visited there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Stayed with relatives.

[Assistant] Sure, sure. It actually, I'm an only child, and so I have to say that it sounds terrific.