[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
One thing that I do remember very vividly was when I was ready to retire we went back down to KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida], and the people I’d worked with all this time arranged for us and our daughter and our granddaughter to go out to the launchpad and to drive up to it and walk underneath an [Orbiter] that was on the pad and look up.

They won’t let you do that anymore.

That probably wasn’t something they should have done back then. I always tell my older granddaughter that you’re one of the very few people who ever had a chance to see that.

[Assistant] That’s very unique. I did want to ask about a couple more missions, one being Apollo 11. It’s one of those events. You remember where you were and what you were doing at the time. I wonder where you were and what your emotions were like at that point. You’d been working so hard on the Program.

[User]
Emotions were high. Was I at Langley?

No, we were here, because I remember sitting on the bed with the kids watching the Moon landing.

I was probably at work then.

[Assistant] Oh, you were at work.

[User]
Yes.

What you don’t see often in the press, in Mission Evaluation [Room], the MER, where everyone sees, it’s on television, there’s another room in that building with all the equipment that the engineering people sit at consoles and look at data coming in. It’s a fairly good size room. I was back in there, and you were getting all the data which was then being fed to mission control. That was an exciting time period.

[Assistant] But you didn’t have any visuals at that point. Betty at least was watching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Emotions were high. Was I at Langley?

No, we were here, because I remember sitting on the bed with the kids watching the Moon landing.

I was probably at work then.

[Assistant] Oh, you were at work.

[User]
Yes.

What you don’t see often in the press, in Mission Evaluation [Room], the MER, where everyone sees, it’s on television, there’s another room in that building with all the equipment that the engineering people sit at consoles and look at data coming in. It’s a fairly good size room. I was back in there, and you were getting all the data which was then being fed to mission control. That was an exciting time period.

[Assistant] But you didn’t have any visuals at that point. Betty at least was watching.

[User] Yes, she had television. We were looking at dials.

[Assistant] You think it was a little different experience, since you were just hearing what was happening?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes.

What you don’t see often in the press, in Mission Evaluation [Room], the MER, where everyone sees, it’s on television, there’s another room in that building with all the equipment that the engineering people sit at consoles and look at data coming in. It’s a fairly good size room. I was back in there, and you were getting all the data which was then being fed to mission control. That was an exciting time period.

[Assistant] But you didn’t have any visuals at that point. Betty at least was watching.

[User] Yes, she had television. We were looking at dials.

[Assistant] You think it was a little different experience, since you were just hearing what was happening?

[User] I think we were all pretty much the same excitement. We just couldn’t see much.

[Assistant] You see the images from the MOCR [Mission Operations Control Room] and you see the flag waving and the cigars. Was that happening in the back rooms as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, she had television. We were looking at dials.

[Assistant] You think it was a little different experience, since you were just hearing what was happening?

[User] I think we were all pretty much the same excitement. We just couldn’t see much.

[Assistant] You see the images from the MOCR [Mission Operations Control Room] and you see the flag waving and the cigars. Was that happening in the back rooms as well?

[User] We did have a TV set in there. Most of the guys, and like I said I was engineering, and my job was I was in the Project Office, and make sure that they were all doing their jobs. Most people were looking at meters and dials and their equipment, make sure it was all working. But I’m sure that they all took sneak peeks at the television at the end of the room. I know I did.

[Assistant] What did you think, Betty? What were your feelings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were all pretty much the same excitement. We just couldn’t see much.

[Assistant] You see the images from the MOCR [Mission Operations Control Room] and you see the flag waving and the cigars. Was that happening in the back rooms as well?

[User] We did have a TV set in there. Most of the guys, and like I said I was engineering, and my job was I was in the Project Office, and make sure that they were all doing their jobs. Most people were looking at meters and dials and their equipment, make sure it was all working. But I’m sure that they all took sneak peeks at the television at the end of the room. I know I did.

[Assistant] What did you think, Betty? What were your feelings?

[User]
Awestruck, really, to think that they’d accomplished what they set out to do. Of course we all knew how hard it was to pull that off.

I don’t think there’ll ever be another one like that. Even when we go back to the Moon, it’ll be exciting, but it won’t be the first.

[Assistant] Things have changed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did have a TV set in there. Most of the guys, and like I said I was engineering, and my job was I was in the Project Office, and make sure that they were all doing their jobs. Most people were looking at meters and dials and their equipment, make sure it was all working. But I’m sure that they all took sneak peeks at the television at the end of the room. I know I did.

[Assistant] What did you think, Betty? What were your feelings?

[User]
Awestruck, really, to think that they’d accomplished what they set out to do. Of course we all knew how hard it was to pull that off.

I don’t think there’ll ever be another one like that. Even when we go back to the Moon, it’ll be exciting, but it won’t be the first.

[Assistant] Things have changed.

[User] We kind of take things more for granted. “Oh, go to the Moon, so what.”

[Assistant] Exactly. We’ve been there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Awestruck, really, to think that they’d accomplished what they set out to do. Of course we all knew how hard it was to pull that off.

I don’t think there’ll ever be another one like that. Even when we go back to the Moon, it’ll be exciting, but it won’t be the first.

[Assistant] Things have changed.

[User] We kind of take things more for granted. “Oh, go to the Moon, so what.”

[Assistant] Exactly. We’ve been there.

[User]
How much does it cost? That’s what they worry about. We could be putting that money to doing something else.

Social things, yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned you didn’t go to splashdown parties. Was there any sort of celebration? You mentioned the Astrodome that you guys went to for that event. Was that a NASA-sponsored event, or was that more city of Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We kind of take things more for granted. “Oh, go to the Moon, so what.”

[Assistant] Exactly. We’ve been there.

[User]
How much does it cost? That’s what they worry about. We could be putting that money to doing something else.

Social things, yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned you didn’t go to splashdown parties. Was there any sort of celebration? You mentioned the Astrodome that you guys went to for that event. Was that a NASA-sponsored event, or was that more city of Houston?

[User]
I don’t know, it was kind of spontaneous.

I think it was a Houston-sponsored event.

I think it was Houston, yes.

Spur-of-the-moment.

Then they had a ticker-tape parade when they came home. I remember we took the kids, and we were in some store’s parking garage looking down on the ticker-tape parade. It was really something. I’ve got pictures of that somewhere.

[Assistant] That’d be interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
How much does it cost? That’s what they worry about. We could be putting that money to doing something else.

Social things, yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned you didn’t go to splashdown parties. Was there any sort of celebration? You mentioned the Astrodome that you guys went to for that event. Was that a NASA-sponsored event, or was that more city of Houston?

[User]
I don’t know, it was kind of spontaneous.

I think it was a Houston-sponsored event.

I think it was Houston, yes.

Spur-of-the-moment.

Then they had a ticker-tape parade when they came home. I remember we took the kids, and we were in some store’s parking garage looking down on the ticker-tape parade. It was really something. I’ve got pictures of that somewhere.

[Assistant] That’d be interesting.

[User]
Our kids were—

Pretty young.

Pretty young, but they were very involved.

[Assistant] What did your kids think about the landing? I was young when the Space Shuttle first launched, but I didn’t have all the context. I’m wondering since your kids had some context, Dad was working on it, what was their reaction? What was their feeling? Do you recall it being anything notable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I don’t know, it was kind of spontaneous.

I think it was a Houston-sponsored event.

I think it was Houston, yes.

Spur-of-the-moment.

Then they had a ticker-tape parade when they came home. I remember we took the kids, and we were in some store’s parking garage looking down on the ticker-tape parade. It was really something. I’ve got pictures of that somewhere.

[Assistant] That’d be interesting.

[User]
Our kids were—

Pretty young.

Pretty young, but they were very involved.

[Assistant] What did your kids think about the landing? I was young when the Space Shuttle first launched, but I didn’t have all the context. I’m wondering since your kids had some context, Dad was working on it, what was their reaction? What was their feeling? Do you recall it being anything notable?

[User] Yes, they were always very interested. Of course Joan works for NASA now. Our son, he’s a math professor at Lone Star College. He’s dean of math. Very scientifically minded kids, both of them.

[Assistant] You think working in Apollo and working for NASA had that sort of impact?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Our kids were—

Pretty young.

Pretty young, but they were very involved.

[Assistant] What did your kids think about the landing? I was young when the Space Shuttle first launched, but I didn’t have all the context. I’m wondering since your kids had some context, Dad was working on it, what was their reaction? What was their feeling? Do you recall it being anything notable?

[User] Yes, they were always very interested. Of course Joan works for NASA now. Our son, he’s a math professor at Lone Star College. He’s dean of math. Very scientifically minded kids, both of them.

[Assistant] You think working in Apollo and working for NASA had that sort of impact?

[User]
They’ve been around technical stuff their whole lives.

A STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] student that they call them today. They didn’t have a name for it then. But they were very interested in math and physics and chemistry and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Did the ministers ever have any sermons or anything focused on missions when you were going to church?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they were always very interested. Of course Joan works for NASA now. Our son, he’s a math professor at Lone Star College. He’s dean of math. Very scientifically minded kids, both of them.

[Assistant] You think working in Apollo and working for NASA had that sort of impact?

[User]
They’ve been around technical stuff their whole lives.

A STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] student that they call them today. They didn’t have a name for it then. But they were very interested in math and physics and chemistry and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Did the ministers ever have any sermons or anything focused on missions when you were going to church?

[User]
Oh yes. Our current minister is enamored with the space program.

He is. He’s a space nut. He keeps giving me big books on space that he buys and leaves.

He’s been to launches as well. I think all the ministers have had an admiration for the program and a spiritual support, because we went to a couple of launches at the Cape. I don’t know if they still do or not, but they used to have a prayer breakfast day before launch. Of course the astronaut was not there, but their families were. There was a spiritual need I think, because of the possible danger. The whole family [was] involved, [because] they might not come home.

Our present minister has gone down to several launches.

Buddy Miller, we went, he did the prayer service for that. Almost every minister has appreciated what the program is about on a human level.

[Assistant] It’s not just rockets; it’s human beings flying up there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
They’ve been around technical stuff their whole lives.

A STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] student that they call them today. They didn’t have a name for it then. But they were very interested in math and physics and chemistry and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Did the ministers ever have any sermons or anything focused on missions when you were going to church?

[User]
Oh yes. Our current minister is enamored with the space program.

He is. He’s a space nut. He keeps giving me big books on space that he buys and leaves.

He’s been to launches as well. I think all the ministers have had an admiration for the program and a spiritual support, because we went to a couple of launches at the Cape. I don’t know if they still do or not, but they used to have a prayer breakfast day before launch. Of course the astronaut was not there, but their families were. There was a spiritual need I think, because of the possible danger. The whole family [was] involved, [because] they might not come home.

Our present minister has gone down to several launches.

Buddy Miller, we went, he did the prayer service for that. Almost every minister has appreciated what the program is about on a human level.

[Assistant] It’s not just rockets; it’s human beings flying up there.

[User] Right, and their families. If something happens, their families need spiritual support.

[Assistant] I wondered about that. Do you know if the church was providing some sort of support to Al Bean’s family or Fred Haise’s family? I know you said you weren’t as involved then. But is that something that you recall? The church calling for [help]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh yes. Our current minister is enamored with the space program.

He is. He’s a space nut. He keeps giving me big books on space that he buys and leaves.

He’s been to launches as well. I think all the ministers have had an admiration for the program and a spiritual support, because we went to a couple of launches at the Cape. I don’t know if they still do or not, but they used to have a prayer breakfast day before launch. Of course the astronaut was not there, but their families were. There was a spiritual need I think, because of the possible danger. The whole family [was] involved, [because] they might not come home.

Our present minister has gone down to several launches.

Buddy Miller, we went, he did the prayer service for that. Almost every minister has appreciated what the program is about on a human level.

[Assistant] It’s not just rockets; it’s human beings flying up there.

[User] Right, and their families. If something happens, their families need spiritual support.

[Assistant] I wondered about that. Do you know if the church was providing some sort of support to Al Bean’s family or Fred Haise’s family? I know you said you weren’t as involved then. But is that something that you recall? The church calling for [help]?

[User]
I would be surprised if it wasn’t.

Right. I think I have in some of the newsletters prayers during a flight for different astronauts. Not necessarily if they were members here either, but for everyone that’s involved.

[Assistant] I find that interesting. It’s almost like how NASA has made its mark on the churches. Even though you’re not a member, you’re still vitally important to us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, and their families. If something happens, their families need spiritual support.

[Assistant] I wondered about that. Do you know if the church was providing some sort of support to Al Bean’s family or Fred Haise’s family? I know you said you weren’t as involved then. But is that something that you recall? The church calling for [help]?

[User]
I would be surprised if it wasn’t.

Right. I think I have in some of the newsletters prayers during a flight for different astronauts. Not necessarily if they were members here either, but for everyone that’s involved.

[Assistant] I find that interesting. It’s almost like how NASA has made its mark on the churches. Even though you’re not a member, you’re still vitally important to us.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You showed me last time I was here the banner that’s in your sanctuary, which by the way I shared with Amy [Sue Bean] and Sue [Bean] because I wanted to make sure when I have a chance to talk with Sue that we could talk about it, because I thought that’s so interesting, and obviously share the information with you.\n\n Were you here when they brought that to the church? Do you have any memories of that moment? Was that a big deal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I would be surprised if it wasn’t.

Right. I think I have in some of the newsletters prayers during a flight for different astronauts. Not necessarily if they were members here either, but for everyone that’s involved.

[Assistant] I find that interesting. It’s almost like how NASA has made its mark on the churches. Even though you’re not a member, you’re still vitally important to us.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You showed me last time I was here the banner that’s in your sanctuary, which by the way I shared with Amy [Sue Bean] and Sue [Bean] because I wanted to make sure when I have a chance to talk with Sue that we could talk about it, because I thought that’s so interesting, and obviously share the information with you.\n\n Were you here when they brought that to the church? Do you have any memories of that moment? Was that a big deal?

[User]
I don’t remember that.

I don’t remember whether there was a service that did anything.

Ceremony or anything like that.

I remember they were installing the case so people couldn’t easily get in and steal it.

Maybe Hal Loden would remember that. I don’t know.

[Assistant] I also sent them the photo because I really want to ask them about that, because it’s so unique, such a unique part of your history, and the relationship and ties between the astronauts and church and NASA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You showed me last time I was here the banner that’s in your sanctuary, which by the way I shared with Amy [Sue Bean] and Sue [Bean] because I wanted to make sure when I have a chance to talk with Sue that we could talk about it, because I thought that’s so interesting, and obviously share the information with you.\n\n Were you here when they brought that to the church? Do you have any memories of that moment? Was that a big deal?

[User]
I don’t remember that.

I don’t remember whether there was a service that did anything.

Ceremony or anything like that.

I remember they were installing the case so people couldn’t easily get in and steal it.

Maybe Hal Loden would remember that. I don’t know.

[Assistant] I also sent them the photo because I really want to ask them about that, because it’s so unique, such a unique part of your history, and the relationship and ties between the astronauts and church and NASA.

[User] I don’t know that we do a very good job of letting new members that are joining even know that it’s there, which is probably something we may want to discuss with the ministers someday.

[Assistant] It’s a beautiful piece. It’s very unusual. We don’t have any astronauts that go to my church. Did you guys ever enjoy the lake when you were here initially? Clear Lake. I’ve heard a lot of people say they went boating or did waterskiing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I don’t remember that.

I don’t remember whether there was a service that did anything.

Ceremony or anything like that.

I remember they were installing the case so people couldn’t easily get in and steal it.

Maybe Hal Loden would remember that. I don’t know.

[Assistant] I also sent them the photo because I really want to ask them about that, because it’s so unique, such a unique part of your history, and the relationship and ties between the astronauts and church and NASA.

[User] I don’t know that we do a very good job of letting new members that are joining even know that it’s there, which is probably something we may want to discuss with the ministers someday.

[Assistant] It’s a beautiful piece. It’s very unusual. We don’t have any astronauts that go to my church. Did you guys ever enjoy the lake when you were here initially? Clear Lake. I’ve heard a lot of people say they went boating or did waterskiing.

[User]
We did not do that.

We didn’t. Our next-door neighbor had a boat. They took us fishing.

He took us fishing a few times.

He was a NASA guy too.

I forgot about that. Otherwise no.

Not really.

[Assistant] You mentioned going to launches. Did you ever see any Apollo, or were those Shuttle launches that you went to down at the Cape?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know that we do a very good job of letting new members that are joining even know that it’s there, which is probably something we may want to discuss with the ministers someday.

[Assistant] It’s a beautiful piece. It’s very unusual. We don’t have any astronauts that go to my church. Did you guys ever enjoy the lake when you were here initially? Clear Lake. I’ve heard a lot of people say they went boating or did waterskiing.

[User]
We did not do that.

We didn’t. Our next-door neighbor had a boat. They took us fishing.

He took us fishing a few times.

He was a NASA guy too.

I forgot about that. Otherwise no.

Not really.

[Assistant] You mentioned going to launches. Did you ever see any Apollo, or were those Shuttle launches that you went to down at the Cape?

[User]
Gosh, we went several times. I don’t remember which ones.

They’re probably all Shuttle. I don’t remember if we—we went a lot of times, because one time our kids were only—well, that’s when we were stationed at Langley.

That was prior to the fire. That was before Apollo.

We went down. That was before Apollo. That was before Gemini.

We went to several Shuttle launches.

A couple of them I was working. I thought we went once or twice just for fun too.

Yes, that’s when we took our granddaughter with us.

[Assistant] When she got to walk underneath the Orbiter—that’s a unique treat. You mentioned coming down here in your Rambler. Did you only have one car initially?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We did not do that.

We didn’t. Our next-door neighbor had a boat. They took us fishing.

He took us fishing a few times.

He was a NASA guy too.

I forgot about that. Otherwise no.

Not really.

[Assistant] You mentioned going to launches. Did you ever see any Apollo, or were those Shuttle launches that you went to down at the Cape?

[User]
Gosh, we went several times. I don’t remember which ones.

They’re probably all Shuttle. I don’t remember if we—we went a lot of times, because one time our kids were only—well, that’s when we were stationed at Langley.

That was prior to the fire. That was before Apollo.

We went down. That was before Apollo. That was before Gemini.

We went to several Shuttle launches.

A couple of them I was working. I thought we went once or twice just for fun too.

Yes, that’s when we took our granddaughter with us.

[Assistant] When she got to walk underneath the Orbiter—that’s a unique treat. You mentioned coming down here in your Rambler. Did you only have one car initially?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You ended up buying a second.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Gosh, we went several times. I don’t remember which ones.

They’re probably all Shuttle. I don’t remember if we—we went a lot of times, because one time our kids were only—well, that’s when we were stationed at Langley.

That was prior to the fire. That was before Apollo.

We went down. That was before Apollo. That was before Gemini.

We went to several Shuttle launches.

A couple of them I was working. I thought we went once or twice just for fun too.

Yes, that’s when we took our granddaughter with us.

[Assistant] When she got to walk underneath the Orbiter—that’s a unique treat. You mentioned coming down here in your Rambler. Did you only have one car initially?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You ended up buying a second.

[User]
It was a long time. I really didn’t drive much till we lived here.

Everything was right here.

That Rambler was fun.

They’d be in trouble with the law now because the kids used to sleep in the back. There’s no straps to hold them in back there.

[Assistant] Would you take Dick to work then so you would have the car during the day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You ended up buying a second.

[User]
It was a long time. I really didn’t drive much till we lived here.

Everything was right here.

That Rambler was fun.

They’d be in trouble with the law now because the kids used to sleep in the back. There’s no straps to hold them in back there.

[Assistant] Would you take Dick to work then so you would have the car during the day?

[User]
I didn’t need a car then. We were just home most of the time. It wasn’t till the kids started junior high and high school that I would need a car much.

I used to bike to work once in a while and that gave you a car, but we never had too many things that weren’t right in the neighborhood.

[Assistant] You would just walk over to the grocery store you mentioned and Woolworth’s?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It was a long time. I really didn’t drive much till we lived here.

Everything was right here.

That Rambler was fun.

They’d be in trouble with the law now because the kids used to sleep in the back. There’s no straps to hold them in back there.

[Assistant] Would you take Dick to work then so you would have the car during the day?

[User]
I didn’t need a car then. We were just home most of the time. It wasn’t till the kids started junior high and high school that I would need a car much.

I used to bike to work once in a while and that gave you a car, but we never had too many things that weren’t right in the neighborhood.

[Assistant] You would just walk over to the grocery store you mentioned and Woolworth’s?

[User] Yes. Rec center.

[Assistant] I guess things weren’t that far from your house. I actually went and drove down. After I talked with Joan I went and drove down the street. I wanted to see exactly where Redway was. You were very close. You were almost behind the elementary school. It’s pretty close.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I didn’t need a car then. We were just home most of the time. It wasn’t till the kids started junior high and high school that I would need a car much.

I used to bike to work once in a while and that gave you a car, but we never had too many things that weren’t right in the neighborhood.

[Assistant] You would just walk over to the grocery store you mentioned and Woolworth’s?

[User] Yes. Rec center.

[Assistant] I guess things weren’t that far from your house. I actually went and drove down. After I talked with Joan I went and drove down the street. I wanted to see exactly where Redway was. You were very close. You were almost behind the elementary school. It’s pretty close.

[User]
Across the golf course.

Yes. They walked to school.

Nowadays it’s hardly safe to walk to school.

[Assistant] You had air-conditioning in your car, right? I’ve heard stories from people saying they didn’t have air-conditioning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Rec center.

[Assistant] I guess things weren’t that far from your house. I actually went and drove down. After I talked with Joan I went and drove down the street. I wanted to see exactly where Redway was. You were very close. You were almost behind the elementary school. It’s pretty close.

[User]
Across the golf course.

Yes. They walked to school.

Nowadays it’s hardly safe to walk to school.

[Assistant] You had air-conditioning in your car, right? I’ve heard stories from people saying they didn’t have air-conditioning.

[User]
No. That Rambler didn’t have it. No. We traveled to California a couple times when he went there for work. Across the desert in that, no air-conditioning was tough.

It was tough. She would leave at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning to try to beat the heat.

Drive at night. Yes.

It wouldn’t even work, it was too hot.

[Assistant] Doesn’t cool off.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Across the golf course.

Yes. They walked to school.

Nowadays it’s hardly safe to walk to school.

[Assistant] You had air-conditioning in your car, right? I’ve heard stories from people saying they didn’t have air-conditioning.

[User]
No. That Rambler didn’t have it. No. We traveled to California a couple times when he went there for work. Across the desert in that, no air-conditioning was tough.

It was tough. She would leave at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning to try to beat the heat.

Drive at night. Yes.

It wouldn’t even work, it was too hot.

[Assistant] Doesn’t cool off.

[User]
Wind was the only—

Our next car had air-conditioning.

[Assistant] That was at the top of the list, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No. That Rambler didn’t have it. No. We traveled to California a couple times when he went there for work. Across the desert in that, no air-conditioning was tough.

It was tough. She would leave at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning to try to beat the heat.

Drive at night. Yes.

It wouldn’t even work, it was too hot.

[Assistant] Doesn’t cool off.

[User]
Wind was the only—

Our next car had air-conditioning.

[Assistant] That was at the top of the list, right?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you, because NASA is such a mission-focused Agency, what sort of impact you think Apollo had on the families itself, the mission to go to the Moon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Wind was the only—

Our next car had air-conditioning.

[Assistant] That was at the top of the list, right?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you, because NASA is such a mission-focused Agency, what sort of impact you think Apollo had on the families itself, the mission to go to the Moon.

[User] Did it train us to be mission-oriented? Maybe that’s what we were before.

[Assistant] Maybe it didn’t.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you, because NASA is such a mission-focused Agency, what sort of impact you think Apollo had on the families itself, the mission to go to the Moon.

[User] Did it train us to be mission-oriented? Maybe that’s what we were before.

[Assistant] Maybe it didn’t.

[User] Engineers and their families are very goal-oriented, I think. I think it was just taken for granted that it was going to happen. We can do it.

[Assistant] Did you ever feel like you had to make any sacrifice for the Apollo Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did it train us to be mission-oriented? Maybe that’s what we were before.

[Assistant] Maybe it didn’t.

[User] Engineers and their families are very goal-oriented, I think. I think it was just taken for granted that it was going to happen. We can do it.

[Assistant] Did you ever feel like you had to make any sacrifice for the Apollo Program?

[User] No, I was proud to be part of it in a secondary way.

[Assistant] Do you think your kids had to make any sacrifices for the Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Engineers and their families are very goal-oriented, I think. I think it was just taken for granted that it was going to happen. We can do it.

[Assistant] Did you ever feel like you had to make any sacrifice for the Apollo Program?

[User] No, I was proud to be part of it in a secondary way.

[Assistant] Do you think your kids had to make any sacrifices for the Program?

[User]
No, I don’t think so.

It left you with the kids when I was traveling.

Yes, but that was okay. That’s when I started to drive, when he started to travel.

[Assistant] You kind of need a car at some point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was proud to be part of it in a secondary way.

[Assistant] Do you think your kids had to make any sacrifices for the Program?

[User]
No, I don’t think so.

It left you with the kids when I was traveling.

Yes, but that was okay. That’s when I started to drive, when he started to travel.

[Assistant] You kind of need a car at some point.

[User] We’d take him to the airport and pick him up. It was a big deal. The kids got to see the airplanes.

[Assistant] Were you going up to what is [William P.] Hobby [Airport] now? Or were you going up to the new airport?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, I don’t think so.

It left you with the kids when I was traveling.

Yes, but that was okay. That’s when I started to drive, when he started to travel.

[Assistant] You kind of need a car at some point.

[User] We’d take him to the airport and pick him up. It was a big deal. The kids got to see the airplanes.

[Assistant] Were you going up to what is [William P.] Hobby [Airport] now? Or were you going up to the new airport?

[User]
We used to go just up here to Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas] and catch the shuttle.

Shuttle from Ellington up to the new airport, so that wasn’t much of a trip from us. That was pretty convenient.

Once in a while we went to the big [airport].

[Assistant] Did you ever go out to Ellington—I don’t know if they did this for Apollo, but for Shuttle they used to have the sort of meet the crew when they came back. Did you go out to Ellington at all for any of those type of events?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’d take him to the airport and pick him up. It was a big deal. The kids got to see the airplanes.

[Assistant] Were you going up to what is [William P.] Hobby [Airport] now? Or were you going up to the new airport?

[User]
We used to go just up here to Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas] and catch the shuttle.

Shuttle from Ellington up to the new airport, so that wasn’t much of a trip from us. That was pretty convenient.

Once in a while we went to the big [airport].

[Assistant] Did you ever go out to Ellington—I don’t know if they did this for Apollo, but for Shuttle they used to have the sort of meet the crew when they came back. Did you go out to Ellington at all for any of those type of events?

[User]
I think so.

We went up there once when they had the Shuttle on top of the airplane that was going cross-country. They let the employees go up and walk through it.

That was later, yes.

That was later on.

That’s Shuttle.

[Assistant] I just had a couple more questions. One of the things that I think, but I want to get your opinion on, is that I think this was a community that was unique. It wasn’t like any other, in the fact that you were all united behind one common goal. You don’t really see that today. We’re very fractured, very diverse, but you were all united behind this Apollo Program. I wonder if you agree with that, and if you would talk about that a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was sort of exciting.

[Assistant] Did both of you, at the time, have a sense of how unique the Clear Lake area was, having lived in Virginia and Wisconsin and other places before? Did it seem like a special place?

[User]
It was, yes.

It was like a college campus almost because everyone—not everyone, but the majority of the people were all doing the same thing. Driving a quarter of a mile over here to NASA.

Yes, because other places we’d lived, you didn’t have that sense.

We were at Langley, Virginia, and they’d been there a long time.

But we were kind of thought of as transient in Virginia. It was not that sense of purpose.

No, we were living in neighborhoods with very few people that had anything to do with Langley.

Yes, you didn’t assimilate; we were like Army brats. Here everyone was involved in the dream of the thing.

Had a common goal, everyone.

Nobody was of the old school.

Yes, there was no history like Virginia has.

Virginia had a lot of the feeling of the historical background. We lived close to Williamsburg. We were treated like Army transients.

[Assistant] Did you feel welcomed here when you got here?

[User] Oh yes, we were starting something new. The city of Houston was enthusiastic about it. They named the Astrodome and the Astros and the Rockets.

[Assistant] How has the area changed since you guys moved here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It was, yes.

It was like a college campus almost because everyone—not everyone, but the majority of the people were all doing the same thing. Driving a quarter of a mile over here to NASA.

Yes, because other places we’d lived, you didn’t have that sense.

We were at Langley, Virginia, and they’d been there a long time.

But we were kind of thought of as transient in Virginia. It was not that sense of purpose.

No, we were living in neighborhoods with very few people that had anything to do with Langley.

Yes, you didn’t assimilate; we were like Army brats. Here everyone was involved in the dream of the thing.

Had a common goal, everyone.

Nobody was of the old school.

Yes, there was no history like Virginia has.

Virginia had a lot of the feeling of the historical background. We lived close to Williamsburg. We were treated like Army transients.

[Assistant] Did you feel welcomed here when you got here?

[User] Oh yes, we were starting something new. The city of Houston was enthusiastic about it. They named the Astrodome and the Astros and the Rockets.

[Assistant] How has the area changed since you guys moved here?

[User] Traffic.

[Assistant] I can imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, we were starting something new. The city of Houston was enthusiastic about it. They named the Astrodome and the Astros and the Rockets.

[Assistant] How has the area changed since you guys moved here?

[User] Traffic.

[Assistant] I can imagine.

[User]
They keep widening highways. Highway 3 was two lanes, one each direction. Traffic is worse. We didn’t have a shopping center across the street. Matter of fact, we had to go into town to do a lot of stuff. We had one store to go shopping.

The Piggly Wiggly.

Piggly Wiggly.

[Assistant] Always fun to say.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Traffic.

[Assistant] I can imagine.

[User]
They keep widening highways. Highway 3 was two lanes, one each direction. Traffic is worse. We didn’t have a shopping center across the street. Matter of fact, we had to go into town to do a lot of stuff. We had one store to go shopping.

The Piggly Wiggly.

Piggly Wiggly.

[Assistant] Always fun to say.

[User]
Of course it’s so diverse now. I doubt that half the people in our building have ever worked for NASA.

Yes.

[Assistant] I see that both of you have some notes. I don’t know if you want to review some of those. Dick, I think I might want to do a separate interview with you about your NASA career. It sounds like you did some really interesting things and reporting to Congress about the glass cockpit. I think that’d be interesting to capture some of that history.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
They keep widening highways. Highway 3 was two lanes, one each direction. Traffic is worse. We didn’t have a shopping center across the street. Matter of fact, we had to go into town to do a lot of stuff. We had one store to go shopping.

The Piggly Wiggly.

Piggly Wiggly.

[Assistant] Always fun to say.

[User]
Of course it’s so diverse now. I doubt that half the people in our building have ever worked for NASA.

Yes.

[Assistant] I see that both of you have some notes. I don’t know if you want to review some of those. Dick, I think I might want to do a separate interview with you about your NASA career. It sounds like you did some really interesting things and reporting to Congress about the glass cockpit. I think that’d be interesting to capture some of that history.

[User]
I got to be careful I don’t say names.

Could be in trouble.

[Assistant] I don’t know if there’s some other things that you wanted to address or talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, we just had written down some dates so we wouldn’t forget about it.

I’d written down went to Langley in 1962, February.

When he graduated from Marquette University [Milwaukee, Wisconsin], he was recruited to come to NASA, and we thought, “Wow, that’s really something!” We were very excited about that.

We had a strange way to get there.

But that’s okay.

I took off a semester before.

We got married in September and he—

I took a semester off.

I had graduated from college, he had not yet.

As soon as the government found out I wasn’t—

In school.

—in school I got drafted.

So he spent two years in the Army in between.

They were going to send me to Korea. That stopped. We got married and I guess I got my little draft notice within a month.

Yes.

They must have tracked me.

After a couple years in the service we had two kids.

One.

We had one at the time. I couldn’t afford to go to school, so I went to work. I worked days and went to school nights at Marquette. To finish that last semester I needed to finish took me—

Three years.

—three years. Because I could only take a couple courses at a time at night. The Jesuits teach at Marquette, and I had to take certain courses to have their viewpoint. I spent a lot of time there. When the Langley guy came to interview me, it was one of those typical Wisconsin winters where it never got above zero, and he was dying in the cold. He offered a job at NASA, and I grabbed it.

[Assistant] I did see one other question that I don’t think we asked about. You mentioned in your piece about the women’s service committee. The men used to come home for lunch. Did you come home for lunch? Or did you eat there?

[User]
I think I carried a brown bag most of my career, huh? I don’t remember coming home for lunch.

No.

[Assistant] There was a statement about how the women decided in ’67, because the guys would come to the lunch.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There were too many of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I think I carried a brown bag most of my career, huh? I don’t remember coming home for lunch.

No.

[Assistant] There was a statement about how the women decided in ’67, because the guys would come to the lunch.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There were too many of them.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] I was curious if Dick had been told, “No, you can’t come.” I thought that was an interesting little story, little anecdote.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There were too many of them.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] I was curious if Dick had been told, “No, you can’t come.” I thought that was an interesting little story, little anecdote.

[User] We used to have—remember we had luncheons? Then they said, “No more husbands. This is a women’s group.”

[Assistant] I guess we didn’t talk about Apollo 8. I don’t know if there’s anything else that you would like to say about another mission, but that was a really important mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] I was curious if Dick had been told, “No, you can’t come.” I thought that was an interesting little story, little anecdote.

[User] We used to have—remember we had luncheons? Then they said, “No more husbands. This is a women’s group.”

[Assistant] I guess we didn’t talk about Apollo 8. I don’t know if there’s anything else that you would like to say about another mission, but that was a really important mission.

[User]
I don’t know. We followed all of them.

Usually once one mission is flying, engineering is following that very carefully. The other part of engineering is working on the next mission that’s coming. Adding the glass cockpit took a couple years of activity, that was pretty intense, and a lot of travel. Going to Germany was sort of fun.

[Assistant] I’ll let you guys look at your notes, but I think I asked all my questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We used to have—remember we had luncheons? Then they said, “No more husbands. This is a women’s group.”

[Assistant] I guess we didn’t talk about Apollo 8. I don’t know if there’s anything else that you would like to say about another mission, but that was a really important mission.

[User]
I don’t know. We followed all of them.

Usually once one mission is flying, engineering is following that very carefully. The other part of engineering is working on the next mission that’s coming. Adding the glass cockpit took a couple years of activity, that was pretty intense, and a lot of travel. Going to Germany was sort of fun.

[Assistant] I’ll let you guys look at your notes, but I think I asked all my questions.

[User] I think this has the Marquette part in it. Seems like life moves you along rapidly.

[Assistant] The older I get, the quicker time seems to pass. I just remember being young, and it didn’t pass that way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I don’t know. We followed all of them.

Usually once one mission is flying, engineering is following that very carefully. The other part of engineering is working on the next mission that’s coming. Adding the glass cockpit took a couple years of activity, that was pretty intense, and a lot of travel. Going to Germany was sort of fun.

[Assistant] I’ll let you guys look at your notes, but I think I asked all my questions.

[User] I think this has the Marquette part in it. Seems like life moves you along rapidly.

[Assistant] The older I get, the quicker time seems to pass. I just remember being young, and it didn’t pass that way.

[User] One interesting about being at Langley, where we lived, Langley has huge wind tunnels that did airplane type stuff earlier. When those things went off, the whole neighborhood rumbled. The first time we heard that I guess we thought we were having an earthquake.

[Assistant] Probably woke everybody up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think this has the Marquette part in it. Seems like life moves you along rapidly.

[Assistant] The older I get, the quicker time seems to pass. I just remember being young, and it didn’t pass that way.

[User] One interesting about being at Langley, where we lived, Langley has huge wind tunnels that did airplane type stuff earlier. When those things went off, the whole neighborhood rumbled. The first time we heard that I guess we thought we were having an earthquake.

[Assistant] Probably woke everybody up.

[User]
Yes.

I don’t have anything else.

[Assistant] Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. This gives me some more information.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope it was helpful.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It triggered a lot of memories we had put off aside.

[Assistant] I bet.

[User]
It’s a good thing to stop and think about it for a while before we get any older.

When we can’t remember anything.

When you think about our kids are now 58 and 60, oh my goodness, how did that happen?

[Assistant] I understand. Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It triggered a lot of memories we had put off aside.

[Assistant] I bet.

[User]
It’s a good thing to stop and think about it for a while before we get any older.

When we can’t remember anything.

When you think about our kids are now 58 and 60, oh my goodness, how did that happen?

[Assistant] I understand. Thank you so much.

[User] Our granddaughters have a lot of respect for the space program. It’s going into a third generation.

[Assistant] It’s great that Houston became your home and you made it your own, your place.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It’s a good thing to stop and think about it for a while before we get any older.

When we can’t remember anything.

When you think about our kids are now 58 and 60, oh my goodness, how did that happen?

[Assistant] I understand. Thank you so much.

[User] Our granddaughters have a lot of respect for the space program. It’s going into a third generation.

[Assistant] It’s great that Houston became your home and you made it your own, your place.

[User]
No more Wisconsin winters.

No. We don’t have any family left.

[Assistant] You’re officially Texans now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Our granddaughters have a lot of respect for the space program. It’s going into a third generation.

[Assistant] It’s great that Houston became your home and you made it your own, your place.

[User]
No more Wisconsin winters.

No. We don’t have any family left.

[Assistant] You’re officially Texans now.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I think there’s, there’s certainly a hand-eye coordination facet that, you know, is true of anything that requires some dexterity that way—be it sports or flying. I guess there’s a physiological part of it that’s a little different—that’s a different experience from the standpoint of the g’s you might feel or the tumbling or rolling or those kind of things that are a little different than most.

[Assistant] Yeah. What sorts of aircraft were you initially involved with?

[User] Well at the time I went into flight training in 1952, I did the basic in the old Navy SNJ, which is—the equivalent Air Force would be the Texan T-6.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And advanced training in those days was the Hellcat, the Grumman F6F, the one that, you know, won fame in the Pacific War.

[Assistant] Prop and radial engine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well at the time I went into flight training in 1952, I did the basic in the old Navy SNJ, which is—the equivalent Air Force would be the Texan T-6.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And advanced training in those days was the Hellcat, the Grumman F6F, the one that, you know, won fame in the Pacific War.

[Assistant] Prop and radial engine.

[User] Prop—radial. Both of them—both of them prop aircraft that [I] had qualified…shipboard on two occasions. And then to qualify in jets, it was a very short program of, like, 20 hours’ conversion into the Navy TV1/TV2 series, which was an Air Force T-33 Shooting Star trainer version. …Going in the Marine Corps, [my] first squadron, was in Banshees, McDonnell F2Hs. The squadron, before I left, had converted to Grumman F9-F8s, the swept-wing Cougars.

[Assistant] So your associations with Grumman began a long time ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And advanced training in those days was the Hellcat, the Grumman F6F, the one that, you know, won fame in the Pacific War.

[Assistant] Prop and radial engine.

[User] Prop—radial. Both of them—both of them prop aircraft that [I] had qualified…shipboard on two occasions. And then to qualify in jets, it was a very short program of, like, 20 hours’ conversion into the Navy TV1/TV2 series, which was an Air Force T-33 Shooting Star trainer version. …Going in the Marine Corps, [my] first squadron, was in Banshees, McDonnell F2Hs. The squadron, before I left, had converted to Grumman F9-F8s, the swept-wing Cougars.

[Assistant] So your associations with Grumman began a long time ago.

[User] Well, if you look at the whole flying, I’ve flown about 80 types of aircraft. So I’ve had an association with just about every aviation builder...

[Assistant] You also had, I think, about 7 years of experience with NASA before you came into the astronaut program as a NASA research pilot. I guess (what?) starting at Lewis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, if you look at the whole flying, I’ve flown about 80 types of aircraft. So I’ve had an association with just about every aviation builder...

[Assistant] You also had, I think, about 7 years of experience with NASA before you came into the astronaut program as a NASA research pilot. I guess (what?) starting at Lewis?

[User] That’s correct. I had met a fellow in the Oklahoma Air National Guard (in fact, my squadron commander), Stanley Newman, who had earlier in his life had worked as an engineer at Langley, and he was the one that put the thought in my mind that I should become a NASA research pilot. So even before I finished the University of Oklahoma, I was already scouting around, made visits to Langley and Ames and Edwards, which were then at that time the premier flight test centers of all the NASA centers. But there simply were no openings, and there was a long waiting list.\n\n So I ended up applying and being accepted at Lewis Research Center, which had research programs but more catered to testing of systems using aircraft as the vehicles to test new propulsion systems. We carried aloft…Ram jets hung under airplanes. We had a zero-g aircraft facility. In fact we had the second one in the country behind the Air Force at Wright-Patterson, with an old Navy AJ2, where we did early testing to fix the configuration of propellant tanks in the Centaur rocket, where the screens would be, for instance.

[Assistant] So you were using it for engineering, but later it became a very valuable tool for astronauts.

[User] Oh yes. Absolutely. The one we had, just the bomb bay we used for these experiments. [It] was too small for the, really,—the purposes later I experienced when I became an astronaut with the larger 707, where you had a much bigger area to free float within.

[Assistant] Right. I was of the impression that we didn’t happen on to the use of zero-g aircraft until some time during the Gemini Program. But obviously it was for engineering purposes, at least—it was well before that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct. I had met a fellow in the Oklahoma Air National Guard (in fact, my squadron commander), Stanley Newman, who had earlier in his life had worked as an engineer at Langley, and he was the one that put the thought in my mind that I should become a NASA research pilot. So even before I finished the University of Oklahoma, I was already scouting around, made visits to Langley and Ames and Edwards, which were then at that time the premier flight test centers of all the NASA centers. But there simply were no openings, and there was a long waiting list.\n\n So I ended up applying and being accepted at Lewis Research Center, which had research programs but more catered to testing of systems using aircraft as the vehicles to test new propulsion systems. We carried aloft…Ram jets hung under airplanes. We had a zero-g aircraft facility. In fact we had the second one in the country behind the Air Force at Wright-Patterson, with an old Navy AJ2, where we did early testing to fix the configuration of propellant tanks in the Centaur rocket, where the screens would be, for instance.

[Assistant] So you were using it for engineering, but later it became a very valuable tool for astronauts.

[User] Oh yes. Absolutely. The one we had, just the bomb bay we used for these experiments. [It] was too small for the, really,—the purposes later I experienced when I became an astronaut with the larger 707, where you had a much bigger area to free float within.

[Assistant] Right. I was of the impression that we didn’t happen on to the use of zero-g aircraft until some time during the Gemini Program. But obviously it was for engineering purposes, at least—it was well before that.

[User] I think we inaugurated the AJ2 Program in 1960.

[Assistant] Well, as a NASA research pilot, I’m sure that you had exposure to and knew a number of the astronauts that were selected in groups before you. Let’s see: Neil [A.] Armstrong would have been one of them ahead of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Absolutely. The one we had, just the bomb bay we used for these experiments. [It] was too small for the, really,—the purposes later I experienced when I became an astronaut with the larger 707, where you had a much bigger area to free float within.

[Assistant] Right. I was of the impression that we didn’t happen on to the use of zero-g aircraft until some time during the Gemini Program. But obviously it was for engineering purposes, at least—it was well before that.

[User] I think we inaugurated the AJ2 Program in 1960.

[Assistant] Well, as a NASA research pilot, I’m sure that you had exposure to and knew a number of the astronauts that were selected in groups before you. Let’s see: Neil [A.] Armstrong would have been one of them ahead of you.

[User] Yeah. Neil, in fact, followed the same path through NASA that I had. Neil was about 2½, 3 years ahead of me. He started at Lewis Research Center then went to NASA’s Flight Research Center (now Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards), and from there entered the astronaut program. And I just—I followed literally the same route, but about 3 years behind Neil.

[Assistant] Did you find that made the transition from becoming a research pilot to becoming an astronaut any smoother? Was it—was that a particularly good route to go in your estimation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we inaugurated the AJ2 Program in 1960.

[Assistant] Well, as a NASA research pilot, I’m sure that you had exposure to and knew a number of the astronauts that were selected in groups before you. Let’s see: Neil [A.] Armstrong would have been one of them ahead of you.

[User] Yeah. Neil, in fact, followed the same path through NASA that I had. Neil was about 2½, 3 years ahead of me. He started at Lewis Research Center then went to NASA’s Flight Research Center (now Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards), and from there entered the astronaut program. And I just—I followed literally the same route, but about 3 years behind Neil.

[Assistant] Did you find that made the transition from becoming a research pilot to becoming an astronaut any smoother? Was it—was that a particularly good route to go in your estimation?

[User] Well, I think in the development—when you’re in the portion of a program that’s the development program, which it was—still was—when I entered Apollo and certainly for my early years in Shuttle, I think having a background as an experimental test pilot of any sort (be it a company pilot or with NASA) helps in the sense of your being—having experience to be part of… the design evolution of the vehicle. Because that’s a role that you play. In the case of my NASA experience, except for the Lifting Body Program I had some participation in, most of it was for the design (if you will) and implementation of the experiments or use of the aircraft, which often required modification.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, you were a member of the fifth class. I think you guys dubbed yourselves “The Original 19.” There were 19 of you. And—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Neil, in fact, followed the same path through NASA that I had. Neil was about 2½, 3 years ahead of me. He started at Lewis Research Center then went to NASA’s Flight Research Center (now Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards), and from there entered the astronaut program. And I just—I followed literally the same route, but about 3 years behind Neil.

[Assistant] Did you find that made the transition from becoming a research pilot to becoming an astronaut any smoother? Was it—was that a particularly good route to go in your estimation?

[User] Well, I think in the development—when you’re in the portion of a program that’s the development program, which it was—still was—when I entered Apollo and certainly for my early years in Shuttle, I think having a background as an experimental test pilot of any sort (be it a company pilot or with NASA) helps in the sense of your being—having experience to be part of… the design evolution of the vehicle. Because that’s a role that you play. In the case of my NASA experience, except for the Lifting Body Program I had some participation in, most of it was for the design (if you will) and implementation of the experiments or use of the aircraft, which often required modification.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, you were a member of the fifth class. I think you guys dubbed yourselves “The Original 19.” There were 19 of you. And—

[User] That’s correct. Nineteen of us.

[Assistant] —if I did the math right, eight of you flew in Apollo—nine of you flew in Apollo, eight of you went on to also stay with the Shuttle Program. You, of course, did both. Did you reflect on how you happened to get one of those coveted Apollo assignments out of that class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there certainly was elsewhere in NASA. My experience at Flight Research Center, I’d hoped to fly the X-15, rocket ship; and clearly within that office, it was on seniority. And when I left Flight Research Center to join the astronaut program, I was still two people away from getting my turn to have flown the X-15. It so happens, I’m glad I left because I would have never made it by the time that program ended.

[Assistant] Yeah. The program would have run out before you got through the seniority. I suspect that there was—that all things being equal, seniority was a factor with Deke and with Al, but I think there were clearly other elements that played in it.

[User] Well, I could see, just from the mixes that there also was some thought, I think, of the—call it the personalities. Not in a true psychoanalysis sense, but just their feeling of understanding and knowing the people of who would play together well. Although I would say for the drive of the mission and accomplishing the mission and the length of time of those missions, you could’ve probably mixed any three people and—

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] —just that drive would’ve pulled them together as a team.

[Assistant] How much do you think the technical specialties, technical expertise, that each of the crewmembers brought to it was a factor in how they were placed on the different crews?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —just that drive would’ve pulled them together as a team.

[Assistant] How much do you think the technical specialties, technical expertise, that each of the crewmembers brought to it was a factor in how they were placed on the different crews?

[User] That, I really can’t—I don’t know. I know that the only selection I know that was a differentiator was weight. You could not—if I recall, you could not be a lunar module pilot and weigh more than 175 pounds. So that was kind of an upper limit, as I recall, for that just because of the criticality—

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] —of the performance of the vehicle to accomplish the landing.

[Assistant] Well that’s right. They were offering big bonuses to the Grumman employees who could come up with ounces saved off the vehicle. So I guess you don’t want to trade back a lot of ounces on the vehicle for a lot of pounds on the crew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That, I really can’t—I don’t know. I know that the only selection I know that was a differentiator was weight. You could not—if I recall, you could not be a lunar module pilot and weigh more than 175 pounds. So that was kind of an upper limit, as I recall, for that just because of the criticality—

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] —of the performance of the vehicle to accomplish the landing.

[Assistant] Well that’s right. They were offering big bonuses to the Grumman employees who could come up with ounces saved off the vehicle. So I guess you don’t want to trade back a lot of ounces on the vehicle for a lot of pounds on the crew.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you recall in your group of 19, any of the members of that group who were particular standouts in terms of leadership or played a role in leading the rest of the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well certainly as far as a view, I had no opinion one way or the other of the science group coming in at that time. I did not look at it (maybe as you’re implying) [as] a threat to positions and ensuing flights. As it turned out, it did have an effect in one case. And the MOL astronauts, to me, were later in the selection process, and frankly, some very good people—some of which like Dick Truly, I was in—I went through Test Pilot School with at Edwards, who I knew—were just unfortunately had had a bad situation and losing—having a program disappear from under them with the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Program, were likely too late to fit into the Apollo Program.

[Assistant] As it turned out, they (I think) all flew Shuttle. And yeah, I think they were all Shuttle astronauts. Of course one of them, as you allude to, went on to—well, several of them went on to high management positions: Dick Truly becoming NASA Administrator.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So they did very well for themselves. As you came onboard in ’66, the Gemini Program was in its wrapping-up stages. Did you have any direct involvement with Gemini? Or did you go almost directly—

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] —to Apollo activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So they did very well for themselves. As you came onboard in ’66, the Gemini Program was in its wrapping-up stages. Did you have any direct involvement with Gemini? Or did you go almost directly—

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] —to Apollo activities?

[User] Yeah. When I think, if I recall, when I joined the program, they were about to have Gemini VIII, and I had no involvement. We got to exercise some of the simulators, just as part of—call it that first year of (quote) “Indoctrination, the Docking Trainer. ” Those sorts of things. But [I had] really no direct involvement at all.

[Assistant] As one of the earlier groups, of course, you were going through all of the full gamut of training, including all of the tropical survival, desert survival, things like that, which were later, with the later groups, tended to get dropped. What did that really contribute to your preparation to fly? Was it really more of a team-building kind of an exercise, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] —to Apollo activities?

[User] Yeah. When I think, if I recall, when I joined the program, they were about to have Gemini VIII, and I had no involvement. We got to exercise some of the simulators, just as part of—call it that first year of (quote) “Indoctrination, the Docking Trainer. ” Those sorts of things. But [I had] really no direct involvement at all.

[Assistant] As one of the earlier groups, of course, you were going through all of the full gamut of training, including all of the tropical survival, desert survival, things like that, which were later, with the later groups, tended to get dropped. What did that really contribute to your preparation to fly? Was it really more of a team-building kind of an exercise, do you think?

[User] Well, it was—survival training is one of those things that you have for contingencies and, frankly, hope you’ll never have to use. So, you know, that’s the whole basis of—you don’t plan to be in a survival situation; if we—if you plan right, you wouldn’t be. Certainly there was team-building, but it’s pretty much within our original 19 group because that’s—as we went through it, for the most part it was exclusively our group that went through this training. So in a sense of a mission crew assignment basis, it really didn’t play a role in that sense.

[Assistant] You—well, we touched a little bit on the technical skills in your background with test flying. But you did quite early on begin, as I recall, to focus on the lunar module as an area of expertise. How did you end up in that assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh I ended up as a member of the Apollo 9 team under Jim McDivitt. I was a member of the support crew, which we had in those days. And Jim was, I think, worried more about the—getting the LM ready, so he assigned Ed Mitchell and I to that task, to follow the LM through early testing to get them ready to ship to the Cape and, ensuingly, testing that was done at the Cape. And—so that was my exclusive responsibility, was to make sure LM-2 was ready and then, of course, at a point we decided LM-2 was too far afield with the mods [modifications], so we jumped to LM-3 as the real vehicle that ended up flying Apollo 9.

[Assistant] At that point, was 8 still envisioned as a lunar module mission?

[User] When I—well, you mean, when I was assigned to—

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] —it? When I was assigned to Apollo 8, yes, it was a high-orbit rendezvous (I think 4,000 mile apogee) with a lunar module. And we—I don’t remember how long we were in that training (probably a month) when the decision was made by NASA management to forget the lunar module (it wasn’t going to be ready) and turned it into a lunar mission using only the command and service module. This incidentally was the toughest training cycle I went through of the four in Apollo as far as the time squeeze to get ready.

[Assistant] Getting ready for a lunar mission on 8?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I—well, you mean, when I was assigned to—

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] —it? When I was assigned to Apollo 8, yes, it was a high-orbit rendezvous (I think 4,000 mile apogee) with a lunar module. And we—I don’t remember how long we were in that training (probably a month) when the decision was made by NASA management to forget the lunar module (it wasn’t going to be ready) and turned it into a lunar mission using only the command and service module. This incidentally was the toughest training cycle I went through of the four in Apollo as far as the time squeeze to get ready.

[Assistant] Getting ready for a lunar mission on 8?

[User] On 8. Yes.

[Assistant] That was an almost audacious decision, looking back on it, in the standpoint of the NASA managers and engineers who had to make that decision. How did you get involved in that? What—at what point were you aware of what they were thinking about doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —it? When I was assigned to Apollo 8, yes, it was a high-orbit rendezvous (I think 4,000 mile apogee) with a lunar module. And we—I don’t remember how long we were in that training (probably a month) when the decision was made by NASA management to forget the lunar module (it wasn’t going to be ready) and turned it into a lunar mission using only the command and service module. This incidentally was the toughest training cycle I went through of the four in Apollo as far as the time squeeze to get ready.

[Assistant] Getting ready for a lunar mission on 8?

[User] On 8. Yes.

[Assistant] That was an almost audacious decision, looking back on it, in the standpoint of the NASA managers and engineers who had to make that decision. How did you get involved in that? What—at what point were you aware of what they were thinking about doing?

[User] The only way I got involved in the decision was providing some of the background material. I worked with Charlie Mars, who was under Ted Sasseen and the test engineering for the lunar module operations at NASA-Kennedy. And at that time, LM-3… had arrived at Florida. …We made up a case, if you will, which Charlie presented at a meeting in the Headquarters building at Kennedy, of all the shortcomings in that vehicle, of the things that weren’t flight-worthy that were a number of items… in that vehicle.\n\n So we didn’t even have it up to flight [status]… all the components weren’t there that you needed to fly. And we were involved in this testing to meet a schedule that was just impossible. And so it was really just a little help [with] that background, the information that was presented, that I think made it clear to NASA management… that they either had to slip the schedule or go to this alternate mission.

[Assistant] Was there any particular thing that was holding the LM up? Or was it just a matter of a whole bunch of things and getting it—getting all these systems developed and integrated into a flying vehicle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On 8. Yes.

[Assistant] That was an almost audacious decision, looking back on it, in the standpoint of the NASA managers and engineers who had to make that decision. How did you get involved in that? What—at what point were you aware of what they were thinking about doing?

[User] The only way I got involved in the decision was providing some of the background material. I worked with Charlie Mars, who was under Ted Sasseen and the test engineering for the lunar module operations at NASA-Kennedy. And at that time, LM-3… had arrived at Florida. …We made up a case, if you will, which Charlie presented at a meeting in the Headquarters building at Kennedy, of all the shortcomings in that vehicle, of the things that weren’t flight-worthy that were a number of items… in that vehicle.\n\n So we didn’t even have it up to flight [status]… all the components weren’t there that you needed to fly. And we were involved in this testing to meet a schedule that was just impossible. And so it was really just a little help [with] that background, the information that was presented, that I think made it clear to NASA management… that they either had to slip the schedule or go to this alternate mission.

[Assistant] Was there any particular thing that was holding the LM up? Or was it just a matter of a whole bunch of things and getting it—getting all these systems developed and integrated into a flying vehicle?

[User] Well, it was a combination of things, …problems with the deliveries of subassembly components, of flight components. There were lots of problems in qual tests [qualification tests]. There were lots of mods [modifications]. There were lots of changes in the vehicle that were driven by, you know, engineering and in conjunction with NASA Change Boards that we literally were trying to test vehicles hot. They were live while people were in the back of the vehicle cutting wires and soldering and making mods [modifications] to wiring and other bundles you weren’t using in that test, …

[Assistant] Testing was going on—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only way I got involved in the decision was providing some of the background material. I worked with Charlie Mars, who was under Ted Sasseen and the test engineering for the lunar module operations at NASA-Kennedy. And at that time, LM-3… had arrived at Florida. …We made up a case, if you will, which Charlie presented at a meeting in the Headquarters building at Kennedy, of all the shortcomings in that vehicle, of the things that weren’t flight-worthy that were a number of items… in that vehicle.\n\n So we didn’t even have it up to flight [status]… all the components weren’t there that you needed to fly. And we were involved in this testing to meet a schedule that was just impossible. And so it was really just a little help [with] that background, the information that was presented, that I think made it clear to NASA management… that they either had to slip the schedule or go to this alternate mission.

[Assistant] Was there any particular thing that was holding the LM up? Or was it just a matter of a whole bunch of things and getting it—getting all these systems developed and integrated into a flying vehicle?

[User] Well, it was a combination of things, …problems with the deliveries of subassembly components, of flight components. There were lots of problems in qual tests [qualification tests]. There were lots of mods [modifications]. There were lots of changes in the vehicle that were driven by, you know, engineering and in conjunction with NASA Change Boards that we literally were trying to test vehicles hot. They were live while people were in the back of the vehicle cutting wires and soldering and making mods [modifications] to wiring and other bundles you weren’t using in that test, …

[Assistant] Testing was going on—

[User] —so it was a very bizarre environment at that time.

[Assistant] Was the problem that they were having with the injectors for the ascent engine a particular factor there? Or did that come along later?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a combination of things, …problems with the deliveries of subassembly components, of flight components. There were lots of problems in qual tests [qualification tests]. There were lots of mods [modifications]. There were lots of changes in the vehicle that were driven by, you know, engineering and in conjunction with NASA Change Boards that we literally were trying to test vehicles hot. They were live while people were in the back of the vehicle cutting wires and soldering and making mods [modifications] to wiring and other bundles you weren’t using in that test, …

[Assistant] Testing was going on—

[User] —so it was a very bizarre environment at that time.

[Assistant] Was the problem that they were having with the injectors for the ascent engine a particular factor there? Or did that come along later?

[User] No. The ascent engine instability in the injectors and the erosion that was a problem was there. In fact, there was an alternate program started [that] George Low set in place with TRW to try to modify, really I guess, the descent to engine, make it non-throttleable but use it as an ascent engine. So there was [for] some time, … a parallel program that was going on. [Recorder turned off.]

[Assistant] Okay. Fred, we were talking about Apollo 8. You were a member of the backup crew on that mission. And you mentioned that that was the most difficult training cycle that you went through. I’d like to go into that a little more. What was it that made that such a crunch of a mission as far as the crews were concerned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I frankly never felt that I would have a problem with the handling what I had to do both in the normal sense, which was [an] easier thing to consider, but also continuously, at least the ones we could think of and train for. So I felt adequate for every mission I prepared for.

[Assistant] Of course, Mike Collins was originally a member of that Apollo 8 crew and, for a medical problem, was removed. That created a cascading series of things that ultimately ended up affecting your crew assignments, and moved Mike to Apollo 11. I think, if I remember correctly, you were at one point on the 11 crew, were you not?

[User] Well, I—Mike had unfortunately gotten well. [smiles] And by virtue of that, I moved to the Apollo 11 backup crew.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I was on the Apollo 8 backup crew with Neil and Buzz [Edwin “Buzz” Aldrin, Jr.]. And they moved up to the prime crew. Mike rejoined the crew, if you will, as prime; and I was on the backup then with Jim Lovell [James A. Lovell, Jr.] initially with Bill Anders [William A. Anders]. After a very short time, Bill decided to leave the program; and Ken Mattingly [Thomas K. “Ken” Mattingly II ] was put in that place.

[Assistant] Okay. So that put you guys, then, in line for Apollo 14,—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I—Mike had unfortunately gotten well. [smiles] And by virtue of that, I moved to the Apollo 11 backup crew.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I was on the Apollo 8 backup crew with Neil and Buzz [Edwin “Buzz” Aldrin, Jr.]. And they moved up to the prime crew. Mike rejoined the crew, if you will, as prime; and I was on the backup then with Jim Lovell [James A. Lovell, Jr.] initially with Bill Anders [William A. Anders]. After a very short time, Bill decided to leave the program; and Ken Mattingly [Thomas K. “Ken” Mattingly II ] was put in that place.

[Assistant] Okay. So that put you guys, then, in line for Apollo 14,—

[User] 14.

[Assistant] —which subsequently became Apollo 13.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was on the Apollo 8 backup crew with Neil and Buzz [Edwin “Buzz” Aldrin, Jr.]. And they moved up to the prime crew. Mike rejoined the crew, if you will, as prime; and I was on the backup then with Jim Lovell [James A. Lovell, Jr.] initially with Bill Anders [William A. Anders]. After a very short time, Bill decided to leave the program; and Ken Mattingly [Thomas K. “Ken” Mattingly II ] was put in that place.

[Assistant] Okay. So that put you guys, then, in line for Apollo 14,—

[User] 14.

[Assistant] —which subsequently became Apollo 13.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] And we’ll get into that in a bit. One of the assignments that you were particularly notable in, at least in my recollection, was a role in Mission Control as a Capcom [Capsule Communicator]. And I just wondered what, from your point of view, that contributed to your preparation to fly, your trust in the ground when you were in orbit, and that sort of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 14.

[Assistant] —which subsequently became Apollo 13.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] And we’ll get into that in a bit. One of the assignments that you were particularly notable in, at least in my recollection, was a role in Mission Control as a Capcom [Capsule Communicator]. And I just wondered what, from your point of view, that contributed to your preparation to fly, your trust in the ground when you were in orbit, and that sort of thing?

[User] Well, I think the—that, just being a part of a Mission Control team in that role, you’re one of the players in the room under the flight director in the preparation—total preparation through many hours of integrated simulations, preparing for a flight. But likewise even as a crewman for the many cycles (I’ve had two at least in Apollo 8 and 11), working through these integrated simulations with the Mission Control there, the group called “SIM Sup,” [Simulation Supervisor] which was a… group of rather devious people that had been assembled to devise the skits for these simulation scenarios to put in specific failures at specific times in the—in their hopes they would make us fail.\n\n But that conditioning, through all those hours, certainly made me confident of the team that was there. And not just Mission Control. Behind them they had the MER team I guess it was called then in building 45. That—

[Assistant] The Mission Evaluation Room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] And we’ll get into that in a bit. One of the assignments that you were particularly notable in, at least in my recollection, was a role in Mission Control as a Capcom [Capsule Communicator]. And I just wondered what, from your point of view, that contributed to your preparation to fly, your trust in the ground when you were in orbit, and that sort of thing?

[User] Well, I think the—that, just being a part of a Mission Control team in that role, you’re one of the players in the room under the flight director in the preparation—total preparation through many hours of integrated simulations, preparing for a flight. But likewise even as a crewman for the many cycles (I’ve had two at least in Apollo 8 and 11), working through these integrated simulations with the Mission Control there, the group called “SIM Sup,” [Simulation Supervisor] which was a… group of rather devious people that had been assembled to devise the skits for these simulation scenarios to put in specific failures at specific times in the—in their hopes they would make us fail.\n\n But that conditioning, through all those hours, certainly made me confident of the team that was there. And not just Mission Control. Behind them they had the MER team I guess it was called then in building 45. That—

[Assistant] The Mission Evaluation Room?

[User] The mission evaluation that could cascade through the whole contract or force, you know, across the country for brain power if needed. That and then there [were]… “some of the best” brains in the country… on the program because of the challenge of going to the Moon.

[Assistant] Right. It was certainly accessible to it even if they weren’t in the room.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think the—that, just being a part of a Mission Control team in that role, you’re one of the players in the room under the flight director in the preparation—total preparation through many hours of integrated simulations, preparing for a flight. But likewise even as a crewman for the many cycles (I’ve had two at least in Apollo 8 and 11), working through these integrated simulations with the Mission Control there, the group called “SIM Sup,” [Simulation Supervisor] which was a… group of rather devious people that had been assembled to devise the skits for these simulation scenarios to put in specific failures at specific times in the—in their hopes they would make us fail.\n\n But that conditioning, through all those hours, certainly made me confident of the team that was there. And not just Mission Control. Behind them they had the MER team I guess it was called then in building 45. That—

[Assistant] The Mission Evaluation Room?

[User] The mission evaluation that could cascade through the whole contract or force, you know, across the country for brain power if needed. That and then there [were]… “some of the best” brains in the country… on the program because of the challenge of going to the Moon.

[Assistant] Right. It was certainly accessible to it even if they weren’t in the room.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] One of the things that always struck me in my observations of Mission Control was the extent to which it—the simulations in particular were not only a training tool but allowed you to develop the flight planning and the concept for the mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The mission evaluation that could cascade through the whole contract or force, you know, across the country for brain power if needed. That and then there [were]… “some of the best” brains in the country… on the program because of the challenge of going to the Moon.

[Assistant] Right. It was certainly accessible to it even if they weren’t in the room.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] One of the things that always struck me in my observations of Mission Control was the extent to which it—the simulations in particular were not only a training tool but allowed you to develop the flight planning and the concept for the mission.

[User] Right. Each SIM [simulation] we conducted, no matter how short—be it a launch SIM [simulation] which didn’t run that long—we would stop and evaluate what had happened, what had been done. And as you said, it often may [have] changed the mission plan, but it—and probably in more cases, it affected our procedures: How we changed the malfunction procedures or our checklist. Those sorts of things. Because we didn’t leave anything unanswered. If it couldn’t be answered in real time following that mission—that simulation debrief, it would be carried over and worked off line. But eventually if we didn’t have a successful outcome in our mind of how we handled things, each of those were eventually brought to a conclusion.

[Assistant] At the time you were functioning as a member of the backup crew that was in line for Apollo 11, did you guys realize or expect that 11 was the most likely lunar landing mission? First lunar landing mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Each SIM [simulation] we conducted, no matter how short—be it a launch SIM [simulation] which didn’t run that long—we would stop and evaluate what had happened, what had been done. And as you said, it often may [have] changed the mission plan, but it—and probably in more cases, it affected our procedures: How we changed the malfunction procedures or our checklist. Those sorts of things. Because we didn’t leave anything unanswered. If it couldn’t be answered in real time following that mission—that simulation debrief, it would be carried over and worked off line. But eventually if we didn’t have a successful outcome in our mind of how we handled things, each of those were eventually brought to a conclusion.

[Assistant] At the time you were functioning as a member of the backup crew that was in line for Apollo 11, did you guys realize or expect that 11 was the most likely lunar landing mission? First lunar landing mission?

[User] Well I don’t know if it was the most likely, because of the probabilities of it being successful or not. But we knew it was the first in line to at least make the attempt.

[Assistant] The attempt.

[User] Whether it made it or not was, you know, another question to be proven.

[Assistant] Yeah. What do you think the smart money would’ve said at that time? Would you have guessed that 11 would be successful? Or would you have bet that maybe 12 or 13 was the most likely for a successful lunar landing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I don’t know if it was the most likely, because of the probabilities of it being successful or not. But we knew it was the first in line to at least make the attempt.

[Assistant] The attempt.

[User] Whether it made it or not was, you know, another question to be proven.

[Assistant] Yeah. What do you think the smart money would’ve said at that time? Would you have guessed that 11 would be successful? Or would you have bet that maybe 12 or 13 was the most likely for a successful lunar landing?

[User] No, I would’ve—I had a high degree of confidence in the hardware at that time, and I would’ve felt, you know, it was a good shot at 11 being the one.

[Assistant] About a month, if I remember correctly—about a month after Apollo 11, you went through a personal situation that was really quite difficult with the hurricane in your hometown area. I wanted to diverge a little bit from the normal courses and get your recollections of that, because that was, still I think, one of the—Hurricane Camille, in ’69—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Whether it made it or not was, you know, another question to be proven.

[Assistant] Yeah. What do you think the smart money would’ve said at that time? Would you have guessed that 11 would be successful? Or would you have bet that maybe 12 or 13 was the most likely for a successful lunar landing?

[User] No, I would’ve—I had a high degree of confidence in the hardware at that time, and I would’ve felt, you know, it was a good shot at 11 being the one.

[Assistant] About a month, if I remember correctly—about a month after Apollo 11, you went through a personal situation that was really quite difficult with the hurricane in your hometown area. I wanted to diverge a little bit from the normal courses and get your recollections of that, because that was, still I think, one of the—Hurricane Camille, in ’69—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —was one of the worst hurricanes ever to strike the Gulf Coast. And I know you had a lot of direct involvement with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I would’ve—I had a high degree of confidence in the hardware at that time, and I would’ve felt, you know, it was a good shot at 11 being the one.

[Assistant] About a month, if I remember correctly—about a month after Apollo 11, you went through a personal situation that was really quite difficult with the hurricane in your hometown area. I wanted to diverge a little bit from the normal courses and get your recollections of that, because that was, still I think, one of the—Hurricane Camille, in ’69—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —was one of the worst hurricanes ever to strike the Gulf Coast. And I know you had a lot of direct involvement with that.

[User] Well, I went back there afterwards. I still had my mother, one sister, and several aunts that were—

[Assistant] That’s in Biloxi [Mississippi].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —was one of the worst hurricanes ever to strike the Gulf Coast. And I know you had a lot of direct involvement with that.

[User] Well, I went back there afterwards. I still had my mother, one sister, and several aunts that were—

[Assistant] That’s in Biloxi [Mississippi].

[User] —resident then, and one of my aunts lost her house. She was about a half a block off the beach, and it just—the hurricane literally cleared almost the first block off the beach. It just took things right off the foundations. And you know, from a even worse standpoint from the beauty of the coast, destroyed many of the beautiful old oak trees. Some had been—were hundreds of years old that had been there.

[Assistant] Was this in the Biloxi area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I went back there afterwards. I still had my mother, one sister, and several aunts that were—

[Assistant] That’s in Biloxi [Mississippi].

[User] —resident then, and one of my aunts lost her house. She was about a half a block off the beach, and it just—the hurricane literally cleared almost the first block off the beach. It just took things right off the foundations. And you know, from a even worse standpoint from the beauty of the coast, destroyed many of the beautiful old oak trees. Some had been—were hundreds of years old that had been there.

[Assistant] Was this in the Biloxi area?

[User] This was in Biloxi, Mississippi, right. And my mother actually lost a car, was all. She was not harmed although the water got almost up into the house, which is up on pillars, about 3 feet or so. In fact, Biloxi was very lucky because, as I understand, with the water, if it had risen another something like 5 or 6 feet, it would have crested Biloxi, which is a peninsula, and probably just cleared it off. So they were lucky it, you know,—it didn’t get any higher than it had at the time. But I made a visit back then, and again after the mission on a celebration parade. And like I said, I knew of many of the families and had many friends there that had lost homes and possessions.

[Assistant] Thirty years later, you can still see the effects of that storm if you drive through there. The houses that are gone. The foundations that are just sitting along the beach.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —resident then, and one of my aunts lost her house. She was about a half a block off the beach, and it just—the hurricane literally cleared almost the first block off the beach. It just took things right off the foundations. And you know, from a even worse standpoint from the beauty of the coast, destroyed many of the beautiful old oak trees. Some had been—were hundreds of years old that had been there.

[Assistant] Was this in the Biloxi area?

[User] This was in Biloxi, Mississippi, right. And my mother actually lost a car, was all. She was not harmed although the water got almost up into the house, which is up on pillars, about 3 feet or so. In fact, Biloxi was very lucky because, as I understand, with the water, if it had risen another something like 5 or 6 feet, it would have crested Biloxi, which is a peninsula, and probably just cleared it off. So they were lucky it, you know,—it didn’t get any higher than it had at the time. But I made a visit back then, and again after the mission on a celebration parade. And like I said, I knew of many of the families and had many friends there that had lost homes and possessions.

[Assistant] Thirty years later, you can still see the effects of that storm if you drive through there. The houses that are gone. The foundations that are just sitting along the beach.

[User] Right. There’s empty lots with just the foundation with it not—either not chosen to sell the property or rebuild, or no one chose to buy it and think about rebuilding.

[Assistant] Did that—did the timing of that hurricane have a—work into advantage as far as your training scheduling [was concerned]? Or did it come at a bad time for you?