[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was pretty much a mixed group. We didn't really have that distinction. You know, we would have separate portions of training, right? Like the piggery guys would go out to various farms in the neighborhood. We went up to Chico State. And they had a large agricultural program up there.

[Assistant] Was most of the piggery work familiar to you? I mean, to do it.

[User] It's basically. Yeah, but but it went even further than that and it got into the the academic part of it. Which as a general farmer you don't get into all. They gave us this great big thick book on everything you needed to know about raising pigs and talked about the different diseases that talked about inoculations and talked about how to do things from a medical standpoint. Generally, if you're just raising a few pigs at a time, you're not going to do. Yeah, and it really got into the feed of how to create a food that would have all the necessary vitamins by a certain percentage. And I remember we went to Chico State. We talked about the professors there and he showed us how to work all this stuff out. And then we actually had a test. You got all these different types of things. What kind of a mix would you use to try to do for pig? You had to figure out the percentages and write that down.

[Assistant] What was anyone describing the exact job you were going to be doing once you got to India? Or was this all still at the theoretical point?

[User] They told us we'd be working with societies, pig society, piggery societies. And we didn't actually find out until either much later in the program or until we got there and what that meant. But it was a program that was started by the Indian government and they had requested of people with certain areas of expertise to come in and work with that program. So when we got there, it was a program that was just pretty good.

[Assistant] So you were the first in this, if not the first.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's basically. Yeah, but but it went even further than that and it got into the the academic part of it. Which as a general farmer you don't get into all. They gave us this great big thick book on everything you needed to know about raising pigs and talked about the different diseases that talked about inoculations and talked about how to do things from a medical standpoint. Generally, if you're just raising a few pigs at a time, you're not going to do. Yeah, and it really got into the feed of how to create a food that would have all the necessary vitamins by a certain percentage. And I remember we went to Chico State. We talked about the professors there and he showed us how to work all this stuff out. And then we actually had a test. You got all these different types of things. What kind of a mix would you use to try to do for pig? You had to figure out the percentages and write that down.

[Assistant] What was anyone describing the exact job you were going to be doing once you got to India? Or was this all still at the theoretical point?

[User] They told us we'd be working with societies, pig society, piggery societies. And we didn't actually find out until either much later in the program or until we got there and what that meant. But it was a program that was started by the Indian government and they had requested of people with certain areas of expertise to come in and work with that program. So when we got there, it was a program that was just pretty good.

[Assistant] So you were the first in this, if not the first.

[User] We were pretty close to being the first people.

[Assistant] Another big piece of most training programs is the selection process. And it varies from time to time and place to place where you were given a psychological test, you might be interviewed by a psychologist or even a psychiatrist. Do you recall any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They told us we'd be working with societies, pig society, piggery societies. And we didn't actually find out until either much later in the program or until we got there and what that meant. But it was a program that was started by the Indian government and they had requested of people with certain areas of expertise to come in and work with that program. So when we got there, it was a program that was just pretty good.

[Assistant] So you were the first in this, if not the first.

[User] We were pretty close to being the first people.

[Assistant] Another big piece of most training programs is the selection process. And it varies from time to time and place to place where you were given a psychological test, you might be interviewed by a psychologist or even a psychiatrist. Do you recall any of that?

[User] We did have a staff psychologist who was, I think, it was there mostly as an observer. I don't remember specific tests, but I think we did have some tests. And during the selection process, at the end, they were worried about me because they thought I was too young to go and they almost deselected me because of that.

[Assistant] And were you the youngest in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were pretty close to being the first people.

[Assistant] Another big piece of most training programs is the selection process. And it varies from time to time and place to place where you were given a psychological test, you might be interviewed by a psychologist or even a psychiatrist. Do you recall any of that?

[User] We did have a staff psychologist who was, I think, it was there mostly as an observer. I don't remember specific tests, but I think we did have some tests. And during the selection process, at the end, they were worried about me because they thought I was too young to go and they almost deselected me because of that.

[Assistant] And were you the youngest in the group?

[User] No, actually I was getting close to 21.

[Assistant] And there were others in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did have a staff psychologist who was, I think, it was there mostly as an observer. I don't remember specific tests, but I think we did have some tests. And during the selection process, at the end, they were worried about me because they thought I was too young to go and they almost deselected me because of that.

[Assistant] And were you the youngest in the group?

[User] No, actually I was getting close to 21.

[Assistant] And there were others in the group?

[User] Others in the group who were fresh out of high school, and there were others who were quite a bit older. But there were those who had not completed a college degree but had grown up on a farm or were a little bit younger for the most part.

[Assistant] So you weren't exclusively alone in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, actually I was getting close to 21.

[Assistant] And there were others in the group?

[User] Others in the group who were fresh out of high school, and there were others who were quite a bit older. But there were those who had not completed a college degree but had grown up on a farm or were a little bit younger for the most part.

[Assistant] So you weren't exclusively alone in that?

[User] No. They tried to get people with experience.

[Assistant]
And what was your answer when they said you were too young?

You had a beard.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Others in the group who were fresh out of high school, and there were others who were quite a bit older. But there were those who had not completed a college degree but had grown up on a farm or were a little bit younger for the most part.

[Assistant] So you weren't exclusively alone in that?

[User] No. They tried to get people with experience.

[Assistant]
And what was your answer when they said you were too young?

You had a beard.

[User] I had a beard. How young can I be? I probably said, you know, I'll be OK. Don't worry about me. I mean, they almost got me out. We have a swami who was part of our training program. He was um I think he was from Eastern America, but he had so adopted the Indian religion that he had become a swami. He'd gone to training.

[Assistant] This is a Hindu religion?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. They tried to get people with experience.

[Assistant]
And what was your answer when they said you were too young?

You had a beard.

[User] I had a beard. How young can I be? I probably said, you know, I'll be OK. Don't worry about me. I mean, they almost got me out. We have a swami who was part of our training program. He was um I think he was from Eastern America, but he had so adopted the Indian religion that he had become a swami. He'd gone to training.

[Assistant] This is a Hindu religion?

[User] A Hindu religion. He had his own ashram outside of San Francisco. And when the psychologist and the director said that you may be better if I came back in a year or two and retrained, I'd be more suited for it, he tried to get me to go to the ashram for a while to see if he could help me get straightened out. I chose not to do that. And they relented and let me go to India.

[Assistant] Yeah, that must have been a little unsettling though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a beard. How young can I be? I probably said, you know, I'll be OK. Don't worry about me. I mean, they almost got me out. We have a swami who was part of our training program. He was um I think he was from Eastern America, but he had so adopted the Indian religion that he had become a swami. He'd gone to training.

[Assistant] This is a Hindu religion?

[User] A Hindu religion. He had his own ashram outside of San Francisco. And when the psychologist and the director said that you may be better if I came back in a year or two and retrained, I'd be more suited for it, he tried to get me to go to the ashram for a while to see if he could help me get straightened out. I chose not to do that. And they relented and let me go to India.

[Assistant] Yeah, that must have been a little unsettling though.

[User] Well, in retrospect, I think they were probably right. I think I was a little too young to go to India.

[Assistant] So don't tell us now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A Hindu religion. He had his own ashram outside of San Francisco. And when the psychologist and the director said that you may be better if I came back in a year or two and retrained, I'd be more suited for it, he tried to get me to go to the ashram for a while to see if he could help me get straightened out. I chose not to do that. And they relented and let me go to India.

[Assistant] Yeah, that must have been a little unsettling though.

[User] Well, in retrospect, I think they were probably right. I think I was a little too young to go to India.

[Assistant] So don't tell us now.

[User] I can tell you now. Forty years ago. Forty plus.

[Assistant] OK, so the training, three months, just the final selection. And I did a large number get deselected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in retrospect, I think they were probably right. I think I was a little too young to go to India.

[Assistant] So don't tell us now.

[User] I can tell you now. Forty years ago. Forty plus.

[Assistant] OK, so the training, three months, just the final selection. And I did a large number get deselected?

[User] We had a lot of attrition through the program. Like I said, my, my college roommate deselected himself the first week. One of the long haired hippies from San Francisco decided that he didn't want to go to India to kill chickens. Deselected himself. We had another young man who I, I believe younger than I was, and I believe he was deselected because he really was too young. And we had one man drafted out of the program. Oh. Which surprised everybody. Uh, and we had one of the California surfer boys who got involved with one of the girls at the university, and her daddy decided that he should stay there and marry her before she had the baby before, rather than go to India. So we all attended his wedding. And by that time, you know, we'd had maybe five or six people out of the program with other reasons.

[Assistant] Was there a fairly strong group feeling?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can tell you now. Forty years ago. Forty plus.

[Assistant] OK, so the training, three months, just the final selection. And I did a large number get deselected?

[User] We had a lot of attrition through the program. Like I said, my, my college roommate deselected himself the first week. One of the long haired hippies from San Francisco decided that he didn't want to go to India to kill chickens. Deselected himself. We had another young man who I, I believe younger than I was, and I believe he was deselected because he really was too young. And we had one man drafted out of the program. Oh. Which surprised everybody. Uh, and we had one of the California surfer boys who got involved with one of the girls at the university, and her daddy decided that he should stay there and marry her before she had the baby before, rather than go to India. So we all attended his wedding. And by that time, you know, we'd had maybe five or six people out of the program with other reasons.

[Assistant] Was there a fairly strong group feeling?

[User] I think so. There were a few people that, uh, like this faction didn't get along with that for sure. But, uh, once we got to India and we would meet each other for various reasons, you know, it was like long lost brothers because here you are, the only white person in what were miles.

[Assistant] So it was a cohort of sorts. Uh, so you get through the questions about your age and everything and the training is over. What happens at that point? Did you get a chance to get home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a lot of attrition through the program. Like I said, my, my college roommate deselected himself the first week. One of the long haired hippies from San Francisco decided that he didn't want to go to India to kill chickens. Deselected himself. We had another young man who I, I believe younger than I was, and I believe he was deselected because he really was too young. And we had one man drafted out of the program. Oh. Which surprised everybody. Uh, and we had one of the California surfer boys who got involved with one of the girls at the university, and her daddy decided that he should stay there and marry her before she had the baby before, rather than go to India. So we all attended his wedding. And by that time, you know, we'd had maybe five or six people out of the program with other reasons.

[Assistant] Was there a fairly strong group feeling?

[User] I think so. There were a few people that, uh, like this faction didn't get along with that for sure. But, uh, once we got to India and we would meet each other for various reasons, you know, it was like long lost brothers because here you are, the only white person in what were miles.

[Assistant] So it was a cohort of sorts. Uh, so you get through the questions about your age and everything and the training is over. What happens at that point? Did you get a chance to get home?

[User] I believe we got sent home for a week or two. You know, clean up our affairs. Whatever affairs we had at the age of twenty.

[Assistant] And packing up clothes for two years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. There were a few people that, uh, like this faction didn't get along with that for sure. But, uh, once we got to India and we would meet each other for various reasons, you know, it was like long lost brothers because here you are, the only white person in what were miles.

[Assistant] So it was a cohort of sorts. Uh, so you get through the questions about your age and everything and the training is over. What happens at that point? Did you get a chance to get home?

[User] I believe we got sent home for a week or two. You know, clean up our affairs. Whatever affairs we had at the age of twenty.

[Assistant] And packing up clothes for two years.

[User] We were allowed to take, uh, I think it was one hundred pounds in a duffel bag and it was interesting what people would pack. There was an older gentleman, Merle, who was a carpenter by trade. And for some reason he was in the piggery area. But when he packed his duffel bag, he took about 100 pounds of carpentry tools with him. And we had a guy who was a mountain climber, you know, and his bag was climbing tools. But when we got to Delhi, which is where we flew into the day before New Year's. We landed and you could see the Himalayas to the north of us with the sun gleaming off there. And he went right to the office and signed up for a third year because he wanted to be close to those mountains. That was his reason for going to the Peace Corps to go mountain climbing in the Himalayas.

[Assistant] I do recall what you packed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe we got sent home for a week or two. You know, clean up our affairs. Whatever affairs we had at the age of twenty.

[Assistant] And packing up clothes for two years.

[User] We were allowed to take, uh, I think it was one hundred pounds in a duffel bag and it was interesting what people would pack. There was an older gentleman, Merle, who was a carpenter by trade. And for some reason he was in the piggery area. But when he packed his duffel bag, he took about 100 pounds of carpentry tools with him. And we had a guy who was a mountain climber, you know, and his bag was climbing tools. But when we got to Delhi, which is where we flew into the day before New Year's. We landed and you could see the Himalayas to the north of us with the sun gleaming off there. And he went right to the office and signed up for a third year because he wanted to be close to those mountains. That was his reason for going to the Peace Corps to go mountain climbing in the Himalayas.

[Assistant] I do recall what you packed?

[User] Um, I didn't take enough tools. I should have taken more clothes, blue jeans. Didn't take any books because they told us we'd have books given to us. Every household was given in what they call a book locker.

[Assistant] Uh, no security blankets.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were allowed to take, uh, I think it was one hundred pounds in a duffel bag and it was interesting what people would pack. There was an older gentleman, Merle, who was a carpenter by trade. And for some reason he was in the piggery area. But when he packed his duffel bag, he took about 100 pounds of carpentry tools with him. And we had a guy who was a mountain climber, you know, and his bag was climbing tools. But when we got to Delhi, which is where we flew into the day before New Year's. We landed and you could see the Himalayas to the north of us with the sun gleaming off there. And he went right to the office and signed up for a third year because he wanted to be close to those mountains. That was his reason for going to the Peace Corps to go mountain climbing in the Himalayas.

[Assistant] I do recall what you packed?

[User] Um, I didn't take enough tools. I should have taken more clothes, blue jeans. Didn't take any books because they told us we'd have books given to us. Every household was given in what they call a book locker.

[Assistant] Uh, no security blankets.

[User] I can't think of any.

[Assistant] Uh, so you as a group, you flew to New Delhi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I didn't take enough tools. I should have taken more clothes, blue jeans. Didn't take any books because they told us we'd have books given to us. Every household was given in what they call a book locker.

[Assistant] Uh, no security blankets.

[User] I can't think of any.

[Assistant] Uh, so you as a group, you flew to New Delhi.

[User] We flew to, we met in New York and we spent, I think, a day in New York and getting gathered. So we had about a twenty four hour layover in New York City where we could kind of wander around and see what was going on in the city.

[Assistant] First time to the city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't think of any.

[Assistant] Uh, so you as a group, you flew to New Delhi.

[User] We flew to, we met in New York and we spent, I think, a day in New York and getting gathered. So we had about a twenty four hour layover in New York City where we could kind of wander around and see what was going on in the city.

[Assistant] First time to the city?

[User] First time to New York, yeah. And then we all got on a plane, Air India. At that time, they were trying to become the charter flight for the Peace Corps to India. They pulled out all the stops.

[Assistant] So it was a charter flight. The whole plane was just Peace Corps people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We flew to, we met in New York and we spent, I think, a day in New York and getting gathered. So we had about a twenty four hour layover in New York City where we could kind of wander around and see what was going on in the city.

[Assistant] First time to the city?

[User] First time to New York, yeah. And then we all got on a plane, Air India. At that time, they were trying to become the charter flight for the Peace Corps to India. They pulled out all the stops.

[Assistant] So it was a charter flight. The whole plane was just Peace Corps people?

[User] There were other people on there, but there were a lot of Peace Corps people. And I believe the director of the Peace Corps was flying first class.

[Assistant] The director of Peace Corps in India, or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First time to New York, yeah. And then we all got on a plane, Air India. At that time, they were trying to become the charter flight for the Peace Corps to India. They pulled out all the stops.

[Assistant] So it was a charter flight. The whole plane was just Peace Corps people?

[User] There were other people on there, but there were a lot of Peace Corps people. And I believe the director of the Peace Corps was flying first class.

[Assistant] The director of Peace Corps in India, or?

[User] Um, I'm not really sure. And the reason I can't remember is because one of the things they did to pull out all the stops was they were handing out bottles of Chivas Regal. For those of us who thought this was a good thing, yeah, partook freely. And they told me that I got drunk and made a jackass out of myself up in first class with the director. And I don't remember a thing about it, thank god. And I hope he doesn’t either.

[Assistant] Jack Warner, it would have been, if it was the Peace Corps director. Shriver was out by then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were other people on there, but there were a lot of Peace Corps people. And I believe the director of the Peace Corps was flying first class.

[Assistant] The director of Peace Corps in India, or?

[User] Um, I'm not really sure. And the reason I can't remember is because one of the things they did to pull out all the stops was they were handing out bottles of Chivas Regal. For those of us who thought this was a good thing, yeah, partook freely. And they told me that I got drunk and made a jackass out of myself up in first class with the director. And I don't remember a thing about it, thank god. And I hope he doesn’t either.

[Assistant] Jack Warner, it would have been, if it was the Peace Corps director. Shriver was out by then.

[User] I really don't know who it was. That’s one of the darker moments in my life that I just as soon forget.

[Assistant] Appropriately blanked out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I'm not really sure. And the reason I can't remember is because one of the things they did to pull out all the stops was they were handing out bottles of Chivas Regal. For those of us who thought this was a good thing, yeah, partook freely. And they told me that I got drunk and made a jackass out of myself up in first class with the director. And I don't remember a thing about it, thank god. And I hope he doesn’t either.

[Assistant] Jack Warner, it would have been, if it was the Peace Corps director. Shriver was out by then.

[User] I really don't know who it was. That’s one of the darker moments in my life that I just as soon forget.

[Assistant] Appropriately blanked out.

[User] Well, yeah, you're too young to go to India. So I do remember kind of waking up in London, getting off the plane, going, trying to make a phone call. I have no idea who I was trying to call because I didn't know anybody in London, but I wanted the change. I want to take some of the Indian and English money home with me. Oh, I've got a crown and a half crown, but I got change for the machine so I could make a phone call.

[Assistant] And then now you arrive in New Delhi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really don't know who it was. That’s one of the darker moments in my life that I just as soon forget.

[Assistant] Appropriately blanked out.

[User] Well, yeah, you're too young to go to India. So I do remember kind of waking up in London, getting off the plane, going, trying to make a phone call. I have no idea who I was trying to call because I didn't know anybody in London, but I wanted the change. I want to take some of the Indian and English money home with me. Oh, I've got a crown and a half crown, but I got change for the machine so I could make a phone call.

[Assistant] And then now you arrive in New Delhi.

[User] We arrive in New Delhi.

[Assistant] Uh, do you recall your first impression?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yeah, you're too young to go to India. So I do remember kind of waking up in London, getting off the plane, going, trying to make a phone call. I have no idea who I was trying to call because I didn't know anybody in London, but I wanted the change. I want to take some of the Indian and English money home with me. Oh, I've got a crown and a half crown, but I got change for the machine so I could make a phone call.

[Assistant] And then now you arrive in New Delhi.

[User] We arrive in New Delhi.

[Assistant] Uh, do you recall your first impression?

[User] Very late at night. Uh. And the most persistent thing I remember about India is a smell, mmm, wood fire and dung. It just was everywhere. We got into a bus, which was an Indian bus. So, of course, you had to roll the windows down or lower the windows. And as we were going through there through the midnight streets of Delhi, just looking out at all of these unlit mud structures and smelling this odor and smelling the smoke. And I was just almost indescribable that that it had really struck home that this was a truly foreign country for all of us. And by this time, of course, we had been on the plane for 15, 16 hours with a stopover in London, the stopover in Cairo, and I think someplace else. And everybody was dog tired. We got to our hotel and there was this photographer who had been part of our training program. He had volunteered to go through the training program and take pictures and do like a photo documentary of a Peace Corps training group.

[Assistant] For Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We arrive in New Delhi.

[Assistant] Uh, do you recall your first impression?

[User] Very late at night. Uh. And the most persistent thing I remember about India is a smell, mmm, wood fire and dung. It just was everywhere. We got into a bus, which was an Indian bus. So, of course, you had to roll the windows down or lower the windows. And as we were going through there through the midnight streets of Delhi, just looking out at all of these unlit mud structures and smelling this odor and smelling the smoke. And I was just almost indescribable that that it had really struck home that this was a truly foreign country for all of us. And by this time, of course, we had been on the plane for 15, 16 hours with a stopover in London, the stopover in Cairo, and I think someplace else. And everybody was dog tired. We got to our hotel and there was this photographer who had been part of our training program. He had volunteered to go through the training program and take pictures and do like a photo documentary of a Peace Corps training group.

[Assistant] For Peace Corps?

[User] I don't know if it was for Peace Corps or his own personal reasons, but they let him go along with the training. I understand he paid his own way to go to India.

[Assistant] Ok, you don't remember his name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very late at night. Uh. And the most persistent thing I remember about India is a smell, mmm, wood fire and dung. It just was everywhere. We got into a bus, which was an Indian bus. So, of course, you had to roll the windows down or lower the windows. And as we were going through there through the midnight streets of Delhi, just looking out at all of these unlit mud structures and smelling this odor and smelling the smoke. And I was just almost indescribable that that it had really struck home that this was a truly foreign country for all of us. And by this time, of course, we had been on the plane for 15, 16 hours with a stopover in London, the stopover in Cairo, and I think someplace else. And everybody was dog tired. We got to our hotel and there was this photographer who had been part of our training program. He had volunteered to go through the training program and take pictures and do like a photo documentary of a Peace Corps training group.

[Assistant] For Peace Corps?

[User] I don't know if it was for Peace Corps or his own personal reasons, but they let him go along with the training. I understand he paid his own way to go to India.

[Assistant] Ok, you don't remember his name?

[User] His name is Doug Whiteside, and he was out of San Francisco and he had been to India before. And when we got India the 31st of December, of course, the first of January is Independence Day for India. And Doug said one o'clock in the morning there's a big parade in Delhi. You know, there's going to be all this stuff. He wants to go. And everybody else was tired. And I said, I'll go with you. So of course, he had all the money I had, I had no money.

[Assistant] And he was had he had been to India before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know if it was for Peace Corps or his own personal reasons, but they let him go along with the training. I understand he paid his own way to go to India.

[Assistant] Ok, you don't remember his name?

[User] His name is Doug Whiteside, and he was out of San Francisco and he had been to India before. And when we got India the 31st of December, of course, the first of January is Independence Day for India. And Doug said one o'clock in the morning there's a big parade in Delhi. You know, there's going to be all this stuff. He wants to go. And everybody else was tired. And I said, I'll go with you. So of course, he had all the money I had, I had no money.

[Assistant] And he was had he had been to India before?

[User] He had been to India before. So he knew a little bit about the customs, you know, when to bribe a policeman and when not to bribe a policeman, let you through a barrier on the street. We rented a cab and got as close to the main street as possible. And then we kind of worked our way up to this major street in Delhi. And it turned out that we were maybe about a block away from the grandstand where Indira Gandhi and all the dignitaries were on this stand to watch the parade go by. And we were on the other side of the street. And it just seemed like millions of people were out there. And of course, they have the streets all roped off. And he said, come on, let's go. And he'd get out beyond the ropes and I'd be tagging along with him.

[Assistant] So it was just the two of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He had been to India before. So he knew a little bit about the customs, you know, when to bribe a policeman and when not to bribe a policeman, let you through a barrier on the street. We rented a cab and got as close to the main street as possible. And then we kind of worked our way up to this major street in Delhi. And it turned out that we were maybe about a block away from the grandstand where Indira Gandhi and all the dignitaries were on this stand to watch the parade go by. And we were on the other side of the street. And it just seemed like millions of people were out there. And of course, they have the streets all roped off. And he said, come on, let's go. And he'd get out beyond the ropes and I'd be tagging along with him.

[Assistant] So it was just the two of you?

[User] It's just the two of us. The police would be yelling at us to get back under the ropes and don't understand, don't understand. Just got to get good position to take photographs. And we finally got to where we were going and we had the parade. They had the trucks with the missiles on them and they had the marching soldiers. They had the ceremonial elephants with the full trappings and their full colors. And I thought it was just a fantastic for the first day. Here we are with the whole parade. And I know if I wanted, I could have gone down there and said hi to the prime minister and it was just great.

[Assistant] And then you sobered up.

[User] And I sobered up. Actually pretty sober by then.

[Assistant] And so the first couple of days in, uh, New Delhi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's just the two of us. The police would be yelling at us to get back under the ropes and don't understand, don't understand. Just got to get good position to take photographs. And we finally got to where we were going and we had the parade. They had the trucks with the missiles on them and they had the marching soldiers. They had the ceremonial elephants with the full trappings and their full colors. And I thought it was just a fantastic for the first day. Here we are with the whole parade. And I know if I wanted, I could have gone down there and said hi to the prime minister and it was just great.

[Assistant] And then you sobered up.

[User] And I sobered up. Actually pretty sober by then.

[Assistant] And so the first couple of days in, uh, New Delhi.

[User] But we had a number of meetings with people who were going to be our counterparts in the villages we were going to be assigned to.

[Assistant] At the point you arrived, do you have any idea how many Peace Corps volunteers were in India at that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I sobered up. Actually pretty sober by then.

[Assistant] And so the first couple of days in, uh, New Delhi.

[User] But we had a number of meetings with people who were going to be our counterparts in the villages we were going to be assigned to.

[Assistant] At the point you arrived, do you have any idea how many Peace Corps volunteers were in India at that?

[User] I really didn't have any idea. I knew they were in the hundreds. There were a lot because we'd heard about people who were there, nursing programs, teaching program of industrial arts engineering.

[Assistant] In your first few days, were there Peace Corps staff people who appeared and sort of guided you through what was going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we had a number of meetings with people who were going to be our counterparts in the villages we were going to be assigned to.

[Assistant] At the point you arrived, do you have any idea how many Peace Corps volunteers were in India at that?

[User] I really didn't have any idea. I knew they were in the hundreds. There were a lot because we'd heard about people who were there, nursing programs, teaching program of industrial arts engineering.

[Assistant] In your first few days, were there Peace Corps staff people who appeared and sort of guided you through what was going on?

[User] There were a lot of meetings that we were expected to attend that had a lot of the Indian officials as well as the people we were going to be working with. And then our officials would take us in and of course, everybody and give speeches and.

[Assistant] Our officials being the Peace Corps staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really didn't have any idea. I knew they were in the hundreds. There were a lot because we'd heard about people who were there, nursing programs, teaching program of industrial arts engineering.

[Assistant] In your first few days, were there Peace Corps staff people who appeared and sort of guided you through what was going on?

[User] There were a lot of meetings that we were expected to attend that had a lot of the Indian officials as well as the people we were going to be working with. And then our officials would take us in and of course, everybody and give speeches and.

[Assistant] Our officials being the Peace Corps staff?

[User] Peace Corps staff. So they would they would give us all of these beautiful, flowery speeches about the cooperation between our country and theirs and what we were going to do. And yeah, and then after a while, we were just standing there looking at these people. We were supposed to go back to the village but what do we do next?

[Assistant] And do you remember meeting a counterpart?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were a lot of meetings that we were expected to attend that had a lot of the Indian officials as well as the people we were going to be working with. And then our officials would take us in and of course, everybody and give speeches and.

[Assistant] Our officials being the Peace Corps staff?

[User] Peace Corps staff. So they would they would give us all of these beautiful, flowery speeches about the cooperation between our country and theirs and what we were going to do. And yeah, and then after a while, we were just standing there looking at these people. We were supposed to go back to the village but what do we do next?

[Assistant] And do you remember meeting a counterpart?

[User] I did, I did. And the interesting thing is that when you introduce yourself in India, you introduce yourself by your last name. And Americans, of course, introduce yourself by your first name. So for all the time I was there, I was Mr. Jim. And my counterpart, Mr. Deshmukh, he always called me that, I could never get him to drop the Mr. or go with Mr. Maurer.

[Assistant] Your initial contact with him, I assume the exchanges were in English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps staff. So they would they would give us all of these beautiful, flowery speeches about the cooperation between our country and theirs and what we were going to do. And yeah, and then after a while, we were just standing there looking at these people. We were supposed to go back to the village but what do we do next?

[Assistant] And do you remember meeting a counterpart?

[User] I did, I did. And the interesting thing is that when you introduce yourself in India, you introduce yourself by your last name. And Americans, of course, introduce yourself by your first name. So for all the time I was there, I was Mr. Jim. And my counterpart, Mr. Deshmukh, he always called me that, I could never get him to drop the Mr. or go with Mr. Maurer.

[Assistant] Your initial contact with him, I assume the exchanges were in English?

[User] They were, because we found out that once we got to where we were going to go, they didn't speak Marathi in that area. The people who did speak Marathi spoke English for the most part.

[Assistant] You weren't you weren't particularly fluent in Marathi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, I did. And the interesting thing is that when you introduce yourself in India, you introduce yourself by your last name. And Americans, of course, introduce yourself by your first name. So for all the time I was there, I was Mr. Jim. And my counterpart, Mr. Deshmukh, he always called me that, I could never get him to drop the Mr. or go with Mr. Maurer.

[Assistant] Your initial contact with him, I assume the exchanges were in English?

[User] They were, because we found out that once we got to where we were going to go, they didn't speak Marathi in that area. The people who did speak Marathi spoke English for the most part.

[Assistant] You weren't you weren't particularly fluent in Marathi?

[User] Not terribly. And the ones who didn't speak English typically spoke Hindi. But the people in the piggery society were all very good speakers.

[Assistant] But there must have been an initial, uh, transition phase and tuning into Indian English, which is emphasis and everything is different, you know the whole lilt. Do you recall, you know, sort of straining to figure out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were, because we found out that once we got to where we were going to go, they didn't speak Marathi in that area. The people who did speak Marathi spoke English for the most part.

[Assistant] You weren't you weren't particularly fluent in Marathi?

[User] Not terribly. And the ones who didn't speak English typically spoke Hindi. But the people in the piggery society were all very good speakers.

[Assistant] But there must have been an initial, uh, transition phase and tuning into Indian English, which is emphasis and everything is different, you know the whole lilt. Do you recall, you know, sort of straining to figure out?

[User] Um, I don't think I had that much difficulty because we had had the Indian teachers who spoke the same type of English. Although we kind of got used to the way they pronounce some of the words and ran with tongue in the back of the mouth and the patterns. And we had a lot of fun with them too, because there were certain times when they were trying to say English words, which we absolutely could not understand because they were putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. And we had a lot of laughs over over that when we finally got straightened out.

[Assistant] So you meet your counterparts and you're still in New Delhi and is it are you now identified just as the piggery group or are you still traveling with the rest of the people? I want to get you out to your site and what the transition was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not terribly. And the ones who didn't speak English typically spoke Hindi. But the people in the piggery society were all very good speakers.

[Assistant] But there must have been an initial, uh, transition phase and tuning into Indian English, which is emphasis and everything is different, you know the whole lilt. Do you recall, you know, sort of straining to figure out?

[User] Um, I don't think I had that much difficulty because we had had the Indian teachers who spoke the same type of English. Although we kind of got used to the way they pronounce some of the words and ran with tongue in the back of the mouth and the patterns. And we had a lot of fun with them too, because there were certain times when they were trying to say English words, which we absolutely could not understand because they were putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. And we had a lot of laughs over over that when we finally got straightened out.

[Assistant] So you meet your counterparts and you're still in New Delhi and is it are you now identified just as the piggery group or are you still traveling with the rest of the people? I want to get you out to your site and what the transition was.

[User] You know, I'm not really sure I do remember that there were a lot of us on the train going from Delhi down to Bombay. Yeah. And then I think what happened once we got to Bombay is that we were all sent to our sites from there, because there was a regional office in Bombay, a regional Peace Corps office.

[Assistant] It became an issue later, but do you recall if there were any Peace Corps discussion of emergency procedures or, you know, if you were out in your village and something happens, you should be that you should do this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I don't think I had that much difficulty because we had had the Indian teachers who spoke the same type of English. Although we kind of got used to the way they pronounce some of the words and ran with tongue in the back of the mouth and the patterns. And we had a lot of fun with them too, because there were certain times when they were trying to say English words, which we absolutely could not understand because they were putting the emphasis on the wrong syllable. And we had a lot of laughs over over that when we finally got straightened out.

[Assistant] So you meet your counterparts and you're still in New Delhi and is it are you now identified just as the piggery group or are you still traveling with the rest of the people? I want to get you out to your site and what the transition was.

[User] You know, I'm not really sure I do remember that there were a lot of us on the train going from Delhi down to Bombay. Yeah. And then I think what happened once we got to Bombay is that we were all sent to our sites from there, because there was a regional office in Bombay, a regional Peace Corps office.

[Assistant] It became an issue later, but do you recall if there were any Peace Corps discussion of emergency procedures or, you know, if you were out in your village and something happens, you should be that you should do this?

[User] No, but I wish there had been because there came a time when I needed some emergency procedures. I was 14 hours from Bombay on a fast train. And I needed to get to the hospital.

[Assistant] Well, when you get out there, we'll talk about the communication. So you head down to Bombay and then from Bombay, how do you get out to where your station is and how far is it from Bombay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I'm not really sure I do remember that there were a lot of us on the train going from Delhi down to Bombay. Yeah. And then I think what happened once we got to Bombay is that we were all sent to our sites from there, because there was a regional office in Bombay, a regional Peace Corps office.

[Assistant] It became an issue later, but do you recall if there were any Peace Corps discussion of emergency procedures or, you know, if you were out in your village and something happens, you should be that you should do this?

[User] No, but I wish there had been because there came a time when I needed some emergency procedures. I was 14 hours from Bombay on a fast train. And I needed to get to the hospital.

[Assistant] Well, when you get out there, we'll talk about the communication. So you head down to Bombay and then from Bombay, how do you get out to where your station is and how far is it from Bombay?

[User] We were I was stationed. The way we had our, I think by the time we got everybody who was going to India, I think we had seven people left in the piggery society. We had two of them went north of Bombay. I went to pretty much central India by myself. We had Steve Johnson, who had never seen the pig before, go to Poona, which is southeast of Bombay. And then we had two people who were staying in Bombay to work with the agricultural college there. And their job was to set up a receiving station in an area where the port could be processed, where pigs could be processed once we finally got pigs into and then look for a market, because in the villages, typically you either had Hindus and Muslims who wouldn't eat pork.

[Assistant] So I was wondering about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but I wish there had been because there came a time when I needed some emergency procedures. I was 14 hours from Bombay on a fast train. And I needed to get to the hospital.

[Assistant] Well, when you get out there, we'll talk about the communication. So you head down to Bombay and then from Bombay, how do you get out to where your station is and how far is it from Bombay?

[User] We were I was stationed. The way we had our, I think by the time we got everybody who was going to India, I think we had seven people left in the piggery society. We had two of them went north of Bombay. I went to pretty much central India by myself. We had Steve Johnson, who had never seen the pig before, go to Poona, which is southeast of Bombay. And then we had two people who were staying in Bombay to work with the agricultural college there. And their job was to set up a receiving station in an area where the port could be processed, where pigs could be processed once we finally got pigs into and then look for a market, because in the villages, typically you either had Hindus and Muslims who wouldn't eat pork.

[Assistant] So I was wondering about that.

[User] It was one of the things that we always kicked around. What are we doing here?

[Assistant] Who in India is going to end up eating the pork?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were I was stationed. The way we had our, I think by the time we got everybody who was going to India, I think we had seven people left in the piggery society. We had two of them went north of Bombay. I went to pretty much central India by myself. We had Steve Johnson, who had never seen the pig before, go to Poona, which is southeast of Bombay. And then we had two people who were staying in Bombay to work with the agricultural college there. And their job was to set up a receiving station in an area where the port could be processed, where pigs could be processed once we finally got pigs into and then look for a market, because in the villages, typically you either had Hindus and Muslims who wouldn't eat pork.

[Assistant] So I was wondering about that.

[User] It was one of the things that we always kicked around. What are we doing here?

[Assistant] Who in India is going to end up eating the pork?

[User] That's why it was sent to Bombay to be processed, because you had a lot of Westernized Indians and you had a lot of Europeans and Americans.

[Assistant] So there was a market.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was one of the things that we always kicked around. What are we doing here?

[Assistant] Who in India is going to end up eating the pork?

[User] That's why it was sent to Bombay to be processed, because you had a lot of Westernized Indians and you had a lot of Europeans and Americans.

[Assistant] So there was a market.

[User] So there was a market. I mean, OK, we found a place in Relevé that served a pretty good hamburger.

[Assistant] Relatively modest market, though. I mean, it's not like this is food for the millions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's why it was sent to Bombay to be processed, because you had a lot of Westernized Indians and you had a lot of Europeans and Americans.

[Assistant] So there was a market.

[User] So there was a market. I mean, OK, we found a place in Relevé that served a pretty good hamburger.

[Assistant] Relatively modest market, though. I mean, it's not like this is food for the millions.

[User] No, it's not food for the millions. Well we understood was that this was an economic type of program that the government was putting money into, the Indian government. The American government is providing the expertise and the volunteers. And each society consisted of twenty five shares. And the idea was you would have twenty five farmers who would scrape up the minimum amount to match the government's contribution and then the society of twenty five people would be formed. As we got things up and running, they would be able to split all the profits.

[Assistant] Was USAID involved at all on the project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So there was a market. I mean, OK, we found a place in Relevé that served a pretty good hamburger.

[Assistant] Relatively modest market, though. I mean, it's not like this is food for the millions.

[User] No, it's not food for the millions. Well we understood was that this was an economic type of program that the government was putting money into, the Indian government. The American government is providing the expertise and the volunteers. And each society consisted of twenty five shares. And the idea was you would have twenty five farmers who would scrape up the minimum amount to match the government's contribution and then the society of twenty five people would be formed. As we got things up and running, they would be able to split all the profits.

[Assistant] Was USAID involved at all on the project?

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant] Peace Corps in India must have trusted you as being mature because they sent you off alone. So talk about the village you went to and whether other Peace Corps around. I mean, what was it like initially getting out to this village and how far was it from Bombay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it's not food for the millions. Well we understood was that this was an economic type of program that the government was putting money into, the Indian government. The American government is providing the expertise and the volunteers. And each society consisted of twenty five shares. And the idea was you would have twenty five farmers who would scrape up the minimum amount to match the government's contribution and then the society of twenty five people would be formed. As we got things up and running, they would be able to split all the profits.

[Assistant] Was USAID involved at all on the project?

[User] No, not at all.

[Assistant] Peace Corps in India must have trusted you as being mature because they sent you off alone. So talk about the village you went to and whether other Peace Corps around. I mean, what was it like initially getting out to this village and how far was it from Bombay?

[User] Um, in terms of kilometers, I think about four hundred and fifty kilometers.

[Assistant] And the way you get there is by train?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, in terms of kilometers, I think about four hundred and fifty kilometers.

[Assistant] And the way you get there is by train?

[User] By train. We were not allowed to have private vehicles. The only people that did have private vehicles were high ranking Peace Corps staff.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And one of our supervisors would go around from village to village in a in a Jeep Wagoneer. And but he was one of the few people who could drive in India.

[Assistant] Yeah. So talk about your initial reaction and your arrival in the village.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By train. We were not allowed to have private vehicles. The only people that did have private vehicles were high ranking Peace Corps staff.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And one of our supervisors would go around from village to village in a in a Jeep Wagoneer. And but he was one of the few people who could drive in India.

[Assistant] Yeah. So talk about your initial reaction and your arrival in the village.

[User] By the time we got to Bombay, I had started conversing with Mr. Deshmukh, my counterpart, and I think there was another person there who was also one of the the other lower ranking, not not one of the investors, but one of the people who worked for the investors. And so by that time we were friendly enough with each other at least to be able to converse a little bit. I do remember the first time I got there, got to the train station and they said, OK, you're going to go to such and such a place and we'll see you tomorrow down here.

[Assistant] Do you have your one hundred pound duffel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just don't know. It wasn't a family. Eventually we got straightened out.

[Assistant] I mean, it's crazy. You've traveled these thousands of miles and then all of a sudden you’re all alone.

[User] All of a sudden I’m all by myself. I don't know what I'm doing and where I'm going.

[Assistant] In a curtained booth, in a restaurant with food you can’t eat.

[User] People staring at me. And I’m going, what am I doing here?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, wow, that's a tough one. So describe the first couple of days, you know, getting your feet on the ground.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All of a sudden I’m all by myself. I don't know what I'm doing and where I'm going.

[Assistant] In a curtained booth, in a restaurant with food you can’t eat.

[User] People staring at me. And I’m going, what am I doing here?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, wow, that's a tough one. So describe the first couple of days, you know, getting your feet on the ground.

[User] So the next day I managed to get together with the members of the society. And I found out then that what the Indian government had envisioned as a self-help economic development program wasn't really that at all. There were two brothers and a cousin who were fairly well off, high ranking Hindus, Hindus who had bought all the twenty five shares of the piggery.

[Assistant] So you learn this from the get go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] People staring at me. And I’m going, what am I doing here?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, wow, that's a tough one. So describe the first couple of days, you know, getting your feet on the ground.

[User] So the next day I managed to get together with the members of the society. And I found out then that what the Indian government had envisioned as a self-help economic development program wasn't really that at all. There were two brothers and a cousin who were fairly well off, high ranking Hindus, Hindus who had bought all the twenty five shares of the piggery.

[Assistant] So you learn this from the get go.

[User] From the get go. We are the society, the three of us, you, me, my brother and cousin, or whatever it was. And, you know, we're investing the money so that.

[Assistant] And who did they think you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the next day I managed to get together with the members of the society. And I found out then that what the Indian government had envisioned as a self-help economic development program wasn't really that at all. There were two brothers and a cousin who were fairly well off, high ranking Hindus, Hindus who had bought all the twenty five shares of the piggery.

[Assistant] So you learn this from the get go.

[User] From the get go. We are the society, the three of us, you, me, my brother and cousin, or whatever it was. And, you know, we're investing the money so that.

[Assistant] And who did they think you were?

[User] And they knew I was a Peace Corps volunteer to help them get the things set up, to help them with the actual setting up the piggery site. Getting the pigs, getting the feed, figuring out where to put them to market.

[Assistant] And essentially your piece of it is animal husbandry. It's not finance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From the get go. We are the society, the three of us, you, me, my brother and cousin, or whatever it was. And, you know, we're investing the money so that.

[Assistant] And who did they think you were?

[User] And they knew I was a Peace Corps volunteer to help them get the things set up, to help them with the actual setting up the piggery site. Getting the pigs, getting the feed, figuring out where to put them to market.

[Assistant] And essentially your piece of it is animal husbandry. It's not finance.

[User] Right. You know, this this was something else entirely. And so it came as a little bit of a shock that that this obviously was a, uh, I thought it was kind of a scam that these guys were going through because they were the farmers that I was led to believe that we were right out there to help. These guys were businessmen. They were they're investing to make money.

[Assistant] Were you able to share this with your counterpart?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they knew I was a Peace Corps volunteer to help them get the things set up, to help them with the actual setting up the piggery site. Getting the pigs, getting the feed, figuring out where to put them to market.

[Assistant] And essentially your piece of it is animal husbandry. It's not finance.

[User] Right. You know, this this was something else entirely. And so it came as a little bit of a shock that that this obviously was a, uh, I thought it was kind of a scam that these guys were going through because they were the farmers that I was led to believe that we were right out there to help. These guys were businessmen. They were they're investing to make money.

[Assistant] Were you able to share this with your counterpart?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] And what was his role in this mix supposed to be? Exactly the same as yours?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. You know, this this was something else entirely. And so it came as a little bit of a shock that that this obviously was a, uh, I thought it was kind of a scam that these guys were going through because they were the farmers that I was led to believe that we were right out there to help. These guys were businessmen. They were they're investing to make money.

[Assistant] Were you able to share this with your counterpart?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] And what was his role in this mix supposed to be? Exactly the same as yours?

[User] No, he, uh, he was kind of like an office person.

[Assistant] Tell me his name again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] And what was his role in this mix supposed to be? Exactly the same as yours?

[User] No, he, uh, he was kind of like an office person.

[Assistant] Tell me his name again.

[User] Deshmukh. Well, they were all named Deshmukh so they're all related.

[Assistant] One is Deshmukh. OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he, uh, he was kind of like an office person.

[Assistant] Tell me his name again.

[User] Deshmukh. Well, they were all named Deshmukh so they're all related.

[Assistant] One is Deshmukh. OK.

[User] His primary job, as near as I could tell it, was to to do the paperwork and to to make sure that all the applications were correct and just make sure that everything kept flowing.

[Assistant] At the point you arrive, was there any anyone in the village raising pigs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Deshmukh. Well, they were all named Deshmukh so they're all related.

[Assistant] One is Deshmukh. OK.

[User] His primary job, as near as I could tell it, was to to do the paperwork and to to make sure that all the applications were correct and just make sure that everything kept flowing.

[Assistant] At the point you arrive, was there any anyone in the village raising pigs?

[User] Ok, I didn't really go to a village, I went to a small town that was bigger than the town I grew up in, but they called it the village. It had over 90 thousand people in it. And it was urban, very urbanized. Right within the first couple of days, though, they did take me to the village where the pigs were going to be raised. And that was about 10 kilometers further east up in the hills.

[Assistant] And how did they how do you get out there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His primary job, as near as I could tell it, was to to do the paperwork and to to make sure that all the applications were correct and just make sure that everything kept flowing.

[Assistant] At the point you arrive, was there any anyone in the village raising pigs?

[User] Ok, I didn't really go to a village, I went to a small town that was bigger than the town I grew up in, but they called it the village. It had over 90 thousand people in it. And it was urban, very urbanized. Right within the first couple of days, though, they did take me to the village where the pigs were going to be raised. And that was about 10 kilometers further east up in the hills.

[Assistant] And how did they how do you get out there?

[User] And they had a jeep. They took us all out there.

[Assistant] We had you keep saying us. But it was just you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, I didn't really go to a village, I went to a small town that was bigger than the town I grew up in, but they called it the village. It had over 90 thousand people in it. And it was urban, very urbanized. Right within the first couple of days, though, they did take me to the village where the pigs were going to be raised. And that was about 10 kilometers further east up in the hills.

[Assistant] And how did they how do you get out there?

[User] And they had a jeep. They took us all out there.

[Assistant] We had you keep saying us. But it was just you.

[User] Well, all of the people who, the Deshmukhs and. There was a ceremonial groundbreaking type thing where they had an Indian holy man, bless the what was going on, because when we got to the village, the village was maybe two hundred people. Consisted of one little tea stall store and probably 35 to 50 mud houses. And the piggery site was totally vacant, unprepared land with some trees on it. and that's where we were supposed to raise pigs and we had this little ceremony and we spread the blanket and they blessed everybody. And he had speeches and we all had ceremonial food to eat. And then after we did all the appropriate blessing. We went back to town and and that was it.

[Assistant] At that point, what were you thinking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they had a jeep. They took us all out there.

[Assistant] We had you keep saying us. But it was just you.

[User] Well, all of the people who, the Deshmukhs and. There was a ceremonial groundbreaking type thing where they had an Indian holy man, bless the what was going on, because when we got to the village, the village was maybe two hundred people. Consisted of one little tea stall store and probably 35 to 50 mud houses. And the piggery site was totally vacant, unprepared land with some trees on it. and that's where we were supposed to raise pigs and we had this little ceremony and we spread the blanket and they blessed everybody. And he had speeches and we all had ceremonial food to eat. And then after we did all the appropriate blessing. We went back to town and and that was it.

[Assistant] At that point, what were you thinking?

[User] I just didn't know what to do because there was absolutely nothing here. You know, and I thought to myself, well, am I supposed to make the bricks to build the pig pens by myself? It turned out that they did hire some people to dig a well, and by well, I mean, it was a place that was in the stream. In the head of the stream. It was dry season so the water wasn't running. And what they wanted to do was dig this. Well, that was about maybe 15 feet square and about 30 feet deep so that when the rainy season came, the water would fill up this well and they could use that for the for the remaining season. So we really had no water at the site. Even after I left, they still hadn't dug the well deep enough to hold water. So there there was no there were no pens, no fences, no structures of any kind.

[Assistant] All the money to do this had been put up by the rest of the rest of the Deshmukhs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, all of the people who, the Deshmukhs and. There was a ceremonial groundbreaking type thing where they had an Indian holy man, bless the what was going on, because when we got to the village, the village was maybe two hundred people. Consisted of one little tea stall store and probably 35 to 50 mud houses. And the piggery site was totally vacant, unprepared land with some trees on it. and that's where we were supposed to raise pigs and we had this little ceremony and we spread the blanket and they blessed everybody. And he had speeches and we all had ceremonial food to eat. And then after we did all the appropriate blessing. We went back to town and and that was it.

[Assistant] At that point, what were you thinking?

[User] I just didn't know what to do because there was absolutely nothing here. You know, and I thought to myself, well, am I supposed to make the bricks to build the pig pens by myself? It turned out that they did hire some people to dig a well, and by well, I mean, it was a place that was in the stream. In the head of the stream. It was dry season so the water wasn't running. And what they wanted to do was dig this. Well, that was about maybe 15 feet square and about 30 feet deep so that when the rainy season came, the water would fill up this well and they could use that for the for the remaining season. So we really had no water at the site. Even after I left, they still hadn't dug the well deep enough to hold water. So there there was no there were no pens, no fences, no structures of any kind.

[Assistant] All the money to do this had been put up by the rest of the rest of the Deshmukhs?

[User] The government and the Deshmukhs had matched it.

[Assistant] Ok, so you had no idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just didn't know what to do because there was absolutely nothing here. You know, and I thought to myself, well, am I supposed to make the bricks to build the pig pens by myself? It turned out that they did hire some people to dig a well, and by well, I mean, it was a place that was in the stream. In the head of the stream. It was dry season so the water wasn't running. And what they wanted to do was dig this. Well, that was about maybe 15 feet square and about 30 feet deep so that when the rainy season came, the water would fill up this well and they could use that for the for the remaining season. So we really had no water at the site. Even after I left, they still hadn't dug the well deep enough to hold water. So there there was no there were no pens, no fences, no structures of any kind.

[Assistant] All the money to do this had been put up by the rest of the rest of the Deshmukhs?

[User] The government and the Deshmukhs had matched it.

[Assistant] Ok, so you had no idea.

[User] I had no idea where that money was

[Assistant] Or what a budget looked like or what a projection by six months will be here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The government and the Deshmukhs had matched it.

[Assistant] Ok, so you had no idea.

[User] I had no idea where that money was

[Assistant] Or what a budget looked like or what a projection by six months will be here.

[User] Nothing.

[Assistant] So for the first few weeks you were living alone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had no idea where that money was

[Assistant] Or what a budget looked like or what a projection by six months will be here.

[User] Nothing.

[Assistant] So for the first few weeks you were living alone?

[User] At first they, uh, they tried to put me in a little mud hut. Which had absolutely no furniture, no door thatched roof. And I said, I don't really want to live here. And they found a place for me. There was an area that was called the camp, which is where the Indian army used to be. And there was a woman there, a widow who had been in India probably since the early 1900s. Her husband had been a British army officer who was in charge of the regiment for many, many years. And she had his old stone house that had a two wings and a central portion. She lived in the central portion and they rented out one of the wings for me.

[Assistant] She was British?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing.

[Assistant] So for the first few weeks you were living alone?

[User] At first they, uh, they tried to put me in a little mud hut. Which had absolutely no furniture, no door thatched roof. And I said, I don't really want to live here. And they found a place for me. There was an area that was called the camp, which is where the Indian army used to be. And there was a woman there, a widow who had been in India probably since the early 1900s. Her husband had been a British army officer who was in charge of the regiment for many, many years. And she had his old stone house that had a two wings and a central portion. She lived in the central portion and they rented out one of the wings for me.

[Assistant] She was British?

[User] She was British and old almost to the point of senility, uh, bedridden. And, um, she had a cook that had been their cook for probably close to 50 years. He and his family lived in one of the outbuildings. So he became my cook for a while.

[Assistant] So at least you ended up so fairly soon in a reasonably familiar looking place.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At first they, uh, they tried to put me in a little mud hut. Which had absolutely no furniture, no door thatched roof. And I said, I don't really want to live here. And they found a place for me. There was an area that was called the camp, which is where the Indian army used to be. And there was a woman there, a widow who had been in India probably since the early 1900s. Her husband had been a British army officer who was in charge of the regiment for many, many years. And she had his old stone house that had a two wings and a central portion. She lived in the central portion and they rented out one of the wings for me.

[Assistant] She was British?

[User] She was British and old almost to the point of senility, uh, bedridden. And, um, she had a cook that had been their cook for probably close to 50 years. He and his family lived in one of the outbuildings. So he became my cook for a while.

[Assistant] So at least you ended up so fairly soon in a reasonably familiar looking place.

[User] I had a house. Yeah, no furniture still. Had to go by a little rush mat.

[Assistant] Had Peace Corps prepared you for any of this, like given you a settling in allowance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was British and old almost to the point of senility, uh, bedridden. And, um, she had a cook that had been their cook for probably close to 50 years. He and his family lived in one of the outbuildings. So he became my cook for a while.

[Assistant] So at least you ended up so fairly soon in a reasonably familiar looking place.

[User] I had a house. Yeah, no furniture still. Had to go by a little rush mat.

[Assistant] Had Peace Corps prepared you for any of this, like given you a settling in allowance?

[User] They gave us, I think it was five hundred rupees to set up a household. And then four hundred rupees a month for household expenses.

[Assistant] Within the first couple of weeks, were you in communication with the Peace Corps at all? I mean, you must have wanted to tell somebody what in the world was going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a house. Yeah, no furniture still. Had to go by a little rush mat.

[Assistant] Had Peace Corps prepared you for any of this, like given you a settling in allowance?

[User] They gave us, I think it was five hundred rupees to set up a household. And then four hundred rupees a month for household expenses.

[Assistant] Within the first couple of weeks, were you in communication with the Peace Corps at all? I mean, you must have wanted to tell somebody what in the world was going on.

[User] No, not with any of the Peace Corps people back in Bombay.

[Assistant] In the town where the co-op with the piggery group is, were there other Europeans there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They gave us, I think it was five hundred rupees to set up a household. And then four hundred rupees a month for household expenses.

[Assistant] Within the first couple of weeks, were you in communication with the Peace Corps at all? I mean, you must have wanted to tell somebody what in the world was going on.

[User] No, not with any of the Peace Corps people back in Bombay.

[Assistant] In the town where the co-op with the piggery group is, were there other Europeans there?

[User] Yes, there were just down the street from where I was, there was a Canadian missionary and his wife, and we got to know them fairly well. And there were other two other Peace Corps volunteers from an earlier program that were sent there to work with industrial design. And they were living in a small industrial estate to the south of the town.

[Assistant] But you became aware of them and, you know, hooked up them within fairly early on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not with any of the Peace Corps people back in Bombay.

[Assistant] In the town where the co-op with the piggery group is, were there other Europeans there?

[User] Yes, there were just down the street from where I was, there was a Canadian missionary and his wife, and we got to know them fairly well. And there were other two other Peace Corps volunteers from an earlier program that were sent there to work with industrial design. And they were living in a small industrial estate to the south of the town.

[Assistant] But you became aware of them and, you know, hooked up them within fairly early on?

[User] Became aware of them and eventually we all moved in together. We were joined later on by somebody from another village who was having problems with his Indian supervisors. Even though he had an engineering degree, they wouldn't let him do any engineering work. So we he'd met the two that I was living with and came and joined us. And all four of us shared that that one place in the industrial estate.

[Assistant] So let's take the first six months. Did you go back to Bombay at all during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there were just down the street from where I was, there was a Canadian missionary and his wife, and we got to know them fairly well. And there were other two other Peace Corps volunteers from an earlier program that were sent there to work with industrial design. And they were living in a small industrial estate to the south of the town.

[Assistant] But you became aware of them and, you know, hooked up them within fairly early on?

[User] Became aware of them and eventually we all moved in together. We were joined later on by somebody from another village who was having problems with his Indian supervisors. Even though he had an engineering degree, they wouldn't let him do any engineering work. So we he'd met the two that I was living with and came and joined us. And all four of us shared that that one place in the industrial estate.

[Assistant] So let's take the first six months. Did you go back to Bombay at all during that time?

[User] Um, I know I'd been back to Bombay maybe three or four times in the entire time I was there.

[Assistant] Was it because there was a meeting or you had to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Became aware of them and eventually we all moved in together. We were joined later on by somebody from another village who was having problems with his Indian supervisors. Even though he had an engineering degree, they wouldn't let him do any engineering work. So we he'd met the two that I was living with and came and joined us. And all four of us shared that that one place in the industrial estate.

[Assistant] So let's take the first six months. Did you go back to Bombay at all during that time?

[User] Um, I know I'd been back to Bombay maybe three or four times in the entire time I was there.

[Assistant] Was it because there was a meeting or you had to?

[User] I thought it was because of a meeting or we were having some type of seminar or we were going to be introduced to somebody. There was a gentleman there who worked for Pfizer. He was an Indian and he was someone who was supposed to provide us with the feed we needed. And he was at that time of India was a lot of a lot of stuff was being rationed, sugar, butter. These were rationed pretty much nationwide. Grain was rationed. And for whatever reason, the rationing of the grain was overseen by the minister of steel. And so, of course, he didn't really care too much about grain. So when we were trying to get food stuffs for the pigs, we had this incredible bureaucracy that Deshmukh was supposed to be able to figure out how to go through approval for us to get green for the pigs. And the man from Pfizer was supposed to know some of the shortcuts.

[Assistant] And during the six months that anyone from the Peace Corps come out to your site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I know I'd been back to Bombay maybe three or four times in the entire time I was there.

[Assistant] Was it because there was a meeting or you had to?

[User] I thought it was because of a meeting or we were having some type of seminar or we were going to be introduced to somebody. There was a gentleman there who worked for Pfizer. He was an Indian and he was someone who was supposed to provide us with the feed we needed. And he was at that time of India was a lot of a lot of stuff was being rationed, sugar, butter. These were rationed pretty much nationwide. Grain was rationed. And for whatever reason, the rationing of the grain was overseen by the minister of steel. And so, of course, he didn't really care too much about grain. So when we were trying to get food stuffs for the pigs, we had this incredible bureaucracy that Deshmukh was supposed to be able to figure out how to go through approval for us to get green for the pigs. And the man from Pfizer was supposed to know some of the shortcuts.

[Assistant] And during the six months that anyone from the Peace Corps come out to your site?

[User] I believe after a couple of months, uh, Ivan Brotzman, our supervisor, did make the rounds and check on everybody to make sure everybody was OK and settled in.

[Assistant] And do you recall feeding back to him that there were some, you know, holes in the project perhaps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought it was because of a meeting or we were having some type of seminar or we were going to be introduced to somebody. There was a gentleman there who worked for Pfizer. He was an Indian and he was someone who was supposed to provide us with the feed we needed. And he was at that time of India was a lot of a lot of stuff was being rationed, sugar, butter. These were rationed pretty much nationwide. Grain was rationed. And for whatever reason, the rationing of the grain was overseen by the minister of steel. And so, of course, he didn't really care too much about grain. So when we were trying to get food stuffs for the pigs, we had this incredible bureaucracy that Deshmukh was supposed to be able to figure out how to go through approval for us to get green for the pigs. And the man from Pfizer was supposed to know some of the shortcuts.

[Assistant] And during the six months that anyone from the Peace Corps come out to your site?

[User] I believe after a couple of months, uh, Ivan Brotzman, our supervisor, did make the rounds and check on everybody to make sure everybody was OK and settled in.

[Assistant] And do you recall feeding back to him that there were some, you know, holes in the project perhaps?

[User] Um, I'm positive I let my frustrations be known to the administrator because from that point on, he really took a disliking to me.

[Assistant] And what about the others in the group during, again, during, say, the first six months or so? Were you in touch with them? And how did their experience match up against what you were experiencing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe after a couple of months, uh, Ivan Brotzman, our supervisor, did make the rounds and check on everybody to make sure everybody was OK and settled in.

[Assistant] And do you recall feeding back to him that there were some, you know, holes in the project perhaps?

[User] Um, I'm positive I let my frustrations be known to the administrator because from that point on, he really took a disliking to me.

[Assistant] And what about the others in the group during, again, during, say, the first six months or so? Were you in touch with them? And how did their experience match up against what you were experiencing?

[User] I think we were all pretty much in the same boat. We were kind of put out there and we didn't really have the infrastructure there for us to just hit the ground running, so to speak. And there wasn't really a support group for any of us.

[Assistant] Support group in what way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I'm positive I let my frustrations be known to the administrator because from that point on, he really took a disliking to me.

[Assistant] And what about the others in the group during, again, during, say, the first six months or so? Were you in touch with them? And how did their experience match up against what you were experiencing?

[User] I think we were all pretty much in the same boat. We were kind of put out there and we didn't really have the infrastructure there for us to just hit the ground running, so to speak. And there wasn't really a support group for any of us.

[Assistant] Support group in what way?

[User] In terms of where you getting your stuff from, who can I see to get this type of stuff? How are you how are you building your your pig pens? Where are you getting the material from? How are you doing it? What design are you using? I did go visit the other volunteers. I was we were fortunate we could do that. I think we had to pay for it out of our household money, but we saved up enough money. I went to visit the two guys north of Bombay and they had lucked out in that they had gotten with a farmer, a richer farmer, kind of like the people I was working for. He had had an estate. But he was in the process of already raising pigs, trying to improve the native pig line. So I got to see what they were trying to do. I know we had a, um, a convention or seminar down in Poona, which is where the other guys was, and trying to figure out, you know, what he's doing and how he's doing it.

[Assistant] And the convention was what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were all pretty much in the same boat. We were kind of put out there and we didn't really have the infrastructure there for us to just hit the ground running, so to speak. And there wasn't really a support group for any of us.

[Assistant] Support group in what way?

[User] In terms of where you getting your stuff from, who can I see to get this type of stuff? How are you how are you building your your pig pens? Where are you getting the material from? How are you doing it? What design are you using? I did go visit the other volunteers. I was we were fortunate we could do that. I think we had to pay for it out of our household money, but we saved up enough money. I went to visit the two guys north of Bombay and they had lucked out in that they had gotten with a farmer, a richer farmer, kind of like the people I was working for. He had had an estate. But he was in the process of already raising pigs, trying to improve the native pig line. So I got to see what they were trying to do. I know we had a, um, a convention or seminar down in Poona, which is where the other guys was, and trying to figure out, you know, what he's doing and how he's doing it.

[Assistant] And the convention was what?

[User] It just the piggery guys, just the Peace Corps people so that we could at least get some feedback about how it's working for everybody else.

[Assistant] Were there other than other than your group, Peace Corps, people who were in the pig program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In terms of where you getting your stuff from, who can I see to get this type of stuff? How are you how are you building your your pig pens? Where are you getting the material from? How are you doing it? What design are you using? I did go visit the other volunteers. I was we were fortunate we could do that. I think we had to pay for it out of our household money, but we saved up enough money. I went to visit the two guys north of Bombay and they had lucked out in that they had gotten with a farmer, a richer farmer, kind of like the people I was working for. He had had an estate. But he was in the process of already raising pigs, trying to improve the native pig line. So I got to see what they were trying to do. I know we had a, um, a convention or seminar down in Poona, which is where the other guys was, and trying to figure out, you know, what he's doing and how he's doing it.

[Assistant] And the convention was what?

[User] It just the piggery guys, just the Peace Corps people so that we could at least get some feedback about how it's working for everybody else.

[Assistant] Were there other than other than your group, Peace Corps, people who were in the pig program?

[User] I don't believe there were any.

[Assistant] But you seem to feel that it was the first of its kind.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It just the piggery guys, just the Peace Corps people so that we could at least get some feedback about how it's working for everybody else.

[Assistant] Were there other than other than your group, Peace Corps, people who were in the pig program?

[User] I don't believe there were any.

[Assistant] But you seem to feel that it was the first of its kind.

[User] But the society members and I, we did go to certain places. The University of Nonpoor, which was about maybe 50 kilometers from us, had an agricultural college. And we went there. We saw how they were raised. And when we were trying to get a line on what can we get some of these pigs once we get a place set up to keep them.

[Assistant] When you go in that kind of session, who took the lead in talking to people with the deferred to you and say, you know, our expert will discuss our needs? Or did they express it and say, well, I think it's going to help us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't believe there were any.

[Assistant] But you seem to feel that it was the first of its kind.

[User] But the society members and I, we did go to certain places. The University of Nonpoor, which was about maybe 50 kilometers from us, had an agricultural college. And we went there. We saw how they were raised. And when we were trying to get a line on what can we get some of these pigs once we get a place set up to keep them.

[Assistant] When you go in that kind of session, who took the lead in talking to people with the deferred to you and say, you know, our expert will discuss our needs? Or did they express it and say, well, I think it's going to help us?

[User] Ah, I think it was kind of we were all there to see what was going on in the agricultural college. And it I don't really remember that anybody took the lead. I do remember that, uh, I was dismayed because they really didn't have a good program there.

[Assistant] At the Ag College.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the society members and I, we did go to certain places. The University of Nonpoor, which was about maybe 50 kilometers from us, had an agricultural college. And we went there. We saw how they were raised. And when we were trying to get a line on what can we get some of these pigs once we get a place set up to keep them.

[Assistant] When you go in that kind of session, who took the lead in talking to people with the deferred to you and say, you know, our expert will discuss our needs? Or did they express it and say, well, I think it's going to help us?

[User] Ah, I think it was kind of we were all there to see what was going on in the agricultural college. And it I don't really remember that anybody took the lead. I do remember that, uh, I was dismayed because they really didn't have a good program there.

[Assistant] At the Ag College.

[User] They were in-breeding their stock. And so the pigs that they did have available weren’t really healthy pigs. So, uh, and I did make that known to the Deshmukhs.

[Assistant] And, uh, but after six months, if you went out to that little village, was it still just an open field with a bunch of trees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ah, I think it was kind of we were all there to see what was going on in the agricultural college. And it I don't really remember that anybody took the lead. I do remember that, uh, I was dismayed because they really didn't have a good program there.

[Assistant] At the Ag College.

[User] They were in-breeding their stock. And so the pigs that they did have available weren’t really healthy pigs. So, uh, and I did make that known to the Deshmukhs.

[Assistant] And, uh, but after six months, if you went out to that little village, was it still just an open field with a bunch of trees?

[User] And a slightly larger pit every time we went out there.

[Assistant] And that was the well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were in-breeding their stock. And so the pigs that they did have available weren’t really healthy pigs. So, uh, and I did make that known to the Deshmukhs.

[Assistant] And, uh, but after six months, if you went out to that little village, was it still just an open field with a bunch of trees?

[User] And a slightly larger pit every time we went out there.

[Assistant] And that was the well.

[User] That was the well. They’d have another maybe six, eight inches dug out of it.

[Assistant] But you never said, OK, I'm going to sit here and supervise. We're going to finish this well and then we'll go on to the next day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And a slightly larger pit every time we went out there.

[Assistant] And that was the well.

[User] That was the well. They’d have another maybe six, eight inches dug out of it.

[Assistant] But you never said, OK, I'm going to sit here and supervise. We're going to finish this well and then we'll go on to the next day.

[User] I didn't see that that was my job to supervise it.

[Assistant] Well, um, any point in the six months, first period when you thought to yourself, well, it's a lot of nonsense, I want to get out of here, I want to go home. I mean, what am I doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the well. They’d have another maybe six, eight inches dug out of it.

[Assistant] But you never said, OK, I'm going to sit here and supervise. We're going to finish this well and then we'll go on to the next day.

[User] I didn't see that that was my job to supervise it.

[Assistant] Well, um, any point in the six months, first period when you thought to yourself, well, it's a lot of nonsense, I want to get out of here, I want to go home. I mean, what am I doing?

[User] Well, there was a lot of frustration here, and I wasn't the only Peace Corps volunteer to feel that some of the other guys and the other programs also had frustrations and not just picked people, not just to pick people. You know, there is an incredible bureaucracy in India, even more so than I think in America. And none of the training that any of us got really prepared us for dealing with that bureaucracy.

[Assistant] And most of you did not have extensive experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't see that that was my job to supervise it.

[Assistant] Well, um, any point in the six months, first period when you thought to yourself, well, it's a lot of nonsense, I want to get out of here, I want to go home. I mean, what am I doing?

[User] Well, there was a lot of frustration here, and I wasn't the only Peace Corps volunteer to feel that some of the other guys and the other programs also had frustrations and not just picked people, not just to pick people. You know, there is an incredible bureaucracy in India, even more so than I think in America. And none of the training that any of us got really prepared us for dealing with that bureaucracy.

[Assistant] And most of you did not have extensive experience.

[User] So one of the things that I was trying to do on my own was that, when we finally did get ready to have pigs, we needed to have a way to feed them and water them and I was trying to make some feeders, some self feeders, that were big hoppers that we could put the feed in and then you could adjust where the flow was so that when the pig was hungry, you could go in and as he ate to a certain point, the feed would fall down.

[Assistant] So your own design or something?