[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I joined the Peace Corps because I had worked on Robert Kennedy's campaign and was actually at work that night watching the returns from California. And when I saw him shot and killed, I was devastated and felt like I just needed to get out of the country and do something constructive, that the America that was there that time was not something that I recognized.

[Assistant] Before you joined the Peace Corps, can you give us a little background about just growing up, your education and experiences that might be relevant?

[User] I had a three year scholarship to a diploma School of Nursing in Danbury, Connecticut, had graduated in 1962, had started out on a medicine floor and segued to over to Danbury Hospital's emergency room, which was a fledgling process at that time. It was one of the few emergency rooms that it opened in Connecticut. I was lucky enough while I was working in the emergency room to be part of their team that was set up and did the disaster program and part of the original team that was put together to learn how to do and respond to cardiac arrests in the hospital.

[Assistant] Wow, I mean, so that whole cardiac arrest procedure was all developing during the ‘60s, right?

[User] Yeah, I remember the great big huge defibrillators were like the size of small mini refrigerators and everything. Yeah.

[Assistant] So how did you hear about the Peace Corps and the process and timing? How did that go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a three year scholarship to a diploma School of Nursing in Danbury, Connecticut, had graduated in 1962, had started out on a medicine floor and segued to over to Danbury Hospital's emergency room, which was a fledgling process at that time. It was one of the few emergency rooms that it opened in Connecticut. I was lucky enough while I was working in the emergency room to be part of their team that was set up and did the disaster program and part of the original team that was put together to learn how to do and respond to cardiac arrests in the hospital.

[Assistant] Wow, I mean, so that whole cardiac arrest procedure was all developing during the ‘60s, right?

[User] Yeah, I remember the great big huge defibrillators were like the size of small mini refrigerators and everything. Yeah.

[Assistant] So how did you hear about the Peace Corps and the process and timing? How did that go?

[User] My brother was in the Peace Corps in Thailand at the time. He told me that he was having a great time. He thought it was an answer to my frustration with where things were going in America. So I applied to the Peace Corps I put in for Afghanistan and Micronesia got notified that surprise. We have an opening in Honduras and you have to leave within two weeks. Here's your list. And signed the piece of paper and prepped myself to leave for Honduras, which I had to look up on a map to find out where it was.

[Assistant] So it sounds a little bit like you were more eager to go than to be picky about your country, right? Yeah. Yeah. And. So what it sounds like you reacted when you were accepted by getting ready to go, looking it up in the map. What did your friends and family have to say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I remember the great big huge defibrillators were like the size of small mini refrigerators and everything. Yeah.

[Assistant] So how did you hear about the Peace Corps and the process and timing? How did that go?

[User] My brother was in the Peace Corps in Thailand at the time. He told me that he was having a great time. He thought it was an answer to my frustration with where things were going in America. So I applied to the Peace Corps I put in for Afghanistan and Micronesia got notified that surprise. We have an opening in Honduras and you have to leave within two weeks. Here's your list. And signed the piece of paper and prepped myself to leave for Honduras, which I had to look up on a map to find out where it was.

[Assistant] So it sounds a little bit like you were more eager to go than to be picky about your country, right? Yeah. Yeah. And. So what it sounds like you reacted when you were accepted by getting ready to go, looking it up in the map. What did your friends and family have to say?

[User] I think my friends and family, my family's always been people that have been very involved. My mom was someone who raised all of us to believe that silence was condonement and we were always affected. My mom raised all of us to believe that silence was condonement. So that you were expected to give back to your community and to your family and to others in greater need than you. And it just seemed like a good fit for me at the time.

[Assistant] And she didn't mind having two children in the Peace Corps at the same time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My brother was in the Peace Corps in Thailand at the time. He told me that he was having a great time. He thought it was an answer to my frustration with where things were going in America. So I applied to the Peace Corps I put in for Afghanistan and Micronesia got notified that surprise. We have an opening in Honduras and you have to leave within two weeks. Here's your list. And signed the piece of paper and prepped myself to leave for Honduras, which I had to look up on a map to find out where it was.

[Assistant] So it sounds a little bit like you were more eager to go than to be picky about your country, right? Yeah. Yeah. And. So what it sounds like you reacted when you were accepted by getting ready to go, looking it up in the map. What did your friends and family have to say?

[User] I think my friends and family, my family's always been people that have been very involved. My mom was someone who raised all of us to believe that silence was condonement and we were always affected. My mom raised all of us to believe that silence was condonement. So that you were expected to give back to your community and to your family and to others in greater need than you. And it just seemed like a good fit for me at the time.

[Assistant] And she didn't mind having two children in the Peace Corps at the same time?

[User] No, she was actually. It was, they. She used to say that she had six kids and she couldn't travel. So what she did was she sent her kids out to travel and report back to her.

[Assistant] That's a great, great attitude. I think I remember reading your mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll talk a little bit about training without talking all day about. And who did the training and what was covered in the technical training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think my friends and family, my family's always been people that have been very involved. My mom was someone who raised all of us to believe that silence was condonement and we were always affected. My mom raised all of us to believe that silence was condonement. So that you were expected to give back to your community and to your family and to others in greater need than you. And it just seemed like a good fit for me at the time.

[Assistant] And she didn't mind having two children in the Peace Corps at the same time?

[User] No, she was actually. It was, they. She used to say that she had six kids and she couldn't travel. So what she did was she sent her kids out to travel and report back to her.

[Assistant] That's a great, great attitude. I think I remember reading your mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll talk a little bit about training without talking all day about. And who did the training and what was covered in the technical training?

[User] Well, the training was kind of loosey goosey, if I remember well. I mean, we had the open air classrooms. They basically concentrated on a lot of the cultural issues in Honduras and the language skills that we would need to go in country. As far as any nursing preparation or any indication for what it would be like to be a nurse in the country of Honduras was not there.

[Assistant] So any of the strengths about the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, she was actually. It was, they. She used to say that she had six kids and she couldn't travel. So what she did was she sent her kids out to travel and report back to her.

[Assistant] That's a great, great attitude. I think I remember reading your mother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll talk a little bit about training without talking all day about. And who did the training and what was covered in the technical training?

[User] Well, the training was kind of loosey goosey, if I remember well. I mean, we had the open air classrooms. They basically concentrated on a lot of the cultural issues in Honduras and the language skills that we would need to go in country. As far as any nursing preparation or any indication for what it would be like to be a nurse in the country of Honduras was not there.

[Assistant] So any of the strengths about the training?

[User] I think the camaraderie that they build by having people, the volunteers live in the dormitories where you literally had to share everything. You had to rely on each other for a lot of things that you could share your backgrounds and talk with each other was huge. I think there was an amazing bond with this group that I hadn't seen. There were other groups and training at the time, but ours seem to be one that for some reason the chemistry was just right for this group and for everybody in the group.

[Assistant] And how in terms of interacting with other volunteers in and host country people during training, let's talk about the other volunteers, because you already mentioned it was a very strong bond. Any particular picture you could draw of that or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the training was kind of loosey goosey, if I remember well. I mean, we had the open air classrooms. They basically concentrated on a lot of the cultural issues in Honduras and the language skills that we would need to go in country. As far as any nursing preparation or any indication for what it would be like to be a nurse in the country of Honduras was not there.

[Assistant] So any of the strengths about the training?

[User] I think the camaraderie that they build by having people, the volunteers live in the dormitories where you literally had to share everything. You had to rely on each other for a lot of things that you could share your backgrounds and talk with each other was huge. I think there was an amazing bond with this group that I hadn't seen. There were other groups and training at the time, but ours seem to be one that for some reason the chemistry was just right for this group and for everybody in the group.

[Assistant] And how in terms of interacting with other volunteers in and host country people during training, let's talk about the other volunteers, because you already mentioned it was a very strong bond. Any particular picture you could draw of that or?

[User] I think we all had an ability we stayed up at night and a lot of times in the tienda and talked about everything and what we wanted to do. And I think we all had certain reservations about going into the country. But I I saw a lot of independence and a lot of commitment from all of the other members in my group. At the same time, we had a hell of a good time with each other. And I think that went a long way to, you know, a lot of discussion about what were we getting ourselves into and what the heck was going to happen when we got there.

[Assistant] So let's go flip ahead a little bit about your entry into the country, and you can give as many as, you know, word pictures of what was the initial reaction to the people, the physical environment, the town, your coworkers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Day by day and day by day.

[Assistant] And how did you, so you didn't have actually another nurse co?

[User] There were I had no coworker and no other nurse. I was the hardest thing to deal with was the sense of being isolated from any support system. Obviously at that time there were no cell phones. Their TVs were like every now and then somebody would have a television, electricity would go off at night. They would gradually just starting at nine o'clock, you would see the lights just started dimming everywhere. You would know that the electricity was going to be cut off. I had a decent place to live. The local agricultural director, Keoni Lewis, was my landlord. And the barrio women were very kind to me and very helpful to me, but the physical working conditions at the hospital were a real challenge.

[Assistant] So the barrio women, people who wouldn't understand what a barrio was and.

[User] The neighborhood that I lived. Yeah.

[Assistant] And any more about the physical environment of the hospital because?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I looked at the Peace Corps. The problem was that during this time, I had been a political activist and with Richard Nixon in power, I had refused to come home until he was out of office. Mm hmm. So on my way back from my one year of traveling through Central and South America, I ran into two Peace Corps, all retired Peace Corps volunteers who were opening up a Peace Corps training center in Costa Rica. And they offered me the job as the Peace Corps trainer for the women in their program and as the nurse for the program, the training center. And I took that job. And then and that was in Costa Rica, which was a perfect way to segue from Honduras to Costa Rica, made my reentry back into the states a lot easier.

[Assistant] And how long were you in that job?

[User] Two years.

[Assistant] Two years. And overall, how do you see so this is a little three part question. So how would you assess your service in light of three goals of Peace Corps? A is to provide technical assistance where requested. B is to promote better understanding of Americans, and C, is to promote better understanding of other people by Americans. So flip to A and think of that a little bit.

[User] Read that to me again.

[Assistant] To provide technical assistance where requested.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I have gone back to do medsearch missions in San Pedro Sula with a group called Casa Corazón, which was out of Pennsylvania. We worked out of Maria Carranza's hospital in San Pedro Sula. We went down to put in shunts for the babies and children with hydrocephalus. We were down there in two oh nine. Unfortunately, with the political climate, the couple of times we've tried to go back again, we have not been able to go back because of the political climate. However, I remain friends with Dr. Ian Miller, who is the head of the neuro surgical unit at the hospital, and we continue to cooperate with her. We try to help her financially. If there's any specific piece of equipment or something that they need, we're happy to stay in contact and help out however we can.

[Assistant] Ok, here's the big bucket one boy, what no. You're very eloquent. It's what has been the effect of Peace Corps service on your life.

[User] I think it's fair to say, like most of us, that it was a seminal point in our life. I think it was a, it's a focal point that we refer back to frequently. I think the friendships that I made in the Peace Corps, for instance, coming back to my fiftieth reunion here, not having seen people in 50 years, it was like I just saw them. The camaraderie and they shared experiences that you have in that process also gave me a sense of that. Nobody can threaten me with anything anymore. You want to take away my money, you want to take away my house, you want to, you know, been there, done that, survived. And it makes you want to continue the fight.

[Assistant] Am I hearing Donna Summer in the background here, We Will Survive?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Very good. Is there anything else you'd like to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Very good. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

[User] For all of the ups and downs and everything, I'd really like to thank the Peace Corps for the ability for hiring me and taking me on in the first place. Maybe in retrospect, there nonsupport was actually the best thing they could have done for me, because you have to learn to improvise. You have to learn how to make do you have to learn how to survive conditions that you didn't think that you could. The friendships that you make and that shared experience is something that is absolutely unique. There's no way that anybody who did not go through that experience can possibly understand your references and what you say. But I think it has a. I'm, I'm stunned at the number of volunteers who come back, who continue to do good for their country and to do good for other people. I mean, I'll bet 80 to 90 percent of them have stayed on and contribute positively and one way or another to making the world a better place.

[Assistant] Perfecto.

[User] It's true, Gall.

[Assistant] Yeah, no, we have a great group of compatriots here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For all of the ups and downs and everything, I'd really like to thank the Peace Corps for the ability for hiring me and taking me on in the first place. Maybe in retrospect, there nonsupport was actually the best thing they could have done for me, because you have to learn to improvise. You have to learn how to make do you have to learn how to survive conditions that you didn't think that you could. The friendships that you make and that shared experience is something that is absolutely unique. There's no way that anybody who did not go through that experience can possibly understand your references and what you say. But I think it has a. I'm, I'm stunned at the number of volunteers who come back, who continue to do good for their country and to do good for other people. I mean, I'll bet 80 to 90 percent of them have stayed on and contribute positively and one way or another to making the world a better place.

[Assistant] Perfecto.

[User] It's true, Gall.

[Assistant] Yeah, no, we have a great group of compatriots here.

[User] Yeah, I mean, my brother's tie group, you know, they still get together and they still have their. They just had their 50th year reunion earlier this year. Yeah, he went in like a couple of months before I did. Yeah, and they talk almost the same way that you and I do with their experiences and what it was like. And of course, they're the cultural was very different. That was an Asian culture.

[Assistant] Yeah, I know you couldn't read any signs on the road or anything like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was about a year out of, uh, university. Um, I had gone, I had gone through University of Texas at San Antonio, graduated, and then I moved back to D.C., where I grew up, and I was working. And, um, it wasn't something, I wasn't doing anything that I necessarily wanted to do. Uh, and I knew that I wanted to, like I said, travel and do something international. So, um, I looked into the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] When you talk about doing something international, was that interest as a result of something you had encountered when you were younger, growing up?

[User] Uh, in a way. I had always wanted to travel and I wasn't able to. Uh, it was very difficult for me to get a passport. So I had never gotten a passport before Peace Corps. It actually, it took Peace Corps calling the State Department, who ended up calling INS to even get me a passport in the first place. So, uh, part of that was, um, part of the reason why I never really traveled out of the country was that. And, um, obviously, at that time, I couldn't afford to go anywhere. Um, so the Peace Corps was also, they gave me the ability to, to, you know, it wasn't. A lot of the other programs that are similar to Peace Corps, they ask for X amount of money and I didn't have any money. Um, so it was one of those opportunities that it was kind of for everyone, you know, even people who didn't have X amount of money to, to pay for, for a trip could, could go do. So that was a big factor in me being able to go.

[Assistant] Uh, so from the time you had your first, or you put in your application and had your first interview, it was about 18 months before you were, had been accepted?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And, you know, they sent you an invitation to serve. Um, now, did you have a particular country or project in mind when you applied?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I heard Malawi. So my first thought was, where is Malawi? Um, I knew Malawi was a country in sub-Saharan Africa, but I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know where necessarily it was or, or what the culture was like, obviously. Um, so I looked it up, did just normal Wikipedia, Google, YouTube kind of things, looked it up. I was pretty excited because I was not looking forward to, uh, cold weather. I don't do well in cold weather. And that was something that made me nervous about the Ukraine, uh, where Malawi's quite the opposite. It was pretty much hot everywhere, uh, which I do well in. So from a climate perspective, I was, I was interested. Also, I was interested that, um, I knew that there wasn't going to be too many other business development people with me, so I thought that would make it a little more interesting because it'd be just a little different.

[Assistant] I see. Um, what did your friends and family think of your decision to go to Malawi for two years?

[User] Honestly?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Uh, I did not get too much support. Uh, people weren't really. Most people tried to talk me out of it. Um, it was, it was mostly I got, I got comments like, that's what rich people go do, you know? And when you come from a less affluent background, you're not expected to do stuff like that.

[Assistant] I see. That's interesting that, you know, your, um, folks around you thought that Peace Corps was kind of a, um, a thing that the, the wealthier classes did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Honestly?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Uh, I did not get too much support. Uh, people weren't really. Most people tried to talk me out of it. Um, it was, it was mostly I got, I got comments like, that's what rich people go do, you know? And when you come from a less affluent background, you're not expected to do stuff like that.

[Assistant] I see. That's interesting that, you know, your, um, folks around you thought that Peace Corps was kind of a, um, a thing that the, the wealthier classes did.

[User] Right. And I was expected to go get a job, 9 to 5, make money, kind of, you know, which all makes sense. I'm not saying it wasn't, you know, bad advice, but it was not exactly what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Did you, uh, in getting yourself ready to go to Malawi, what kind of, what kind of process did you, did you do, besides the research?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I did not get too much support. Uh, people weren't really. Most people tried to talk me out of it. Um, it was, it was mostly I got, I got comments like, that's what rich people go do, you know? And when you come from a less affluent background, you're not expected to do stuff like that.

[Assistant] I see. That's interesting that, you know, your, um, folks around you thought that Peace Corps was kind of a, um, a thing that the, the wealthier classes did.

[User] Right. And I was expected to go get a job, 9 to 5, make money, kind of, you know, which all makes sense. I'm not saying it wasn't, you know, bad advice, but it was not exactly what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Did you, uh, in getting yourself ready to go to Malawi, what kind of, what kind of process did you, did you do, besides the research?

[User] I actually, and this is where I feel like I do kind of differ from a lot of people. I wanted it to be a very, um. I want to be, I didn't want to go in with any notions or, or, uh, perceptions. So I did very little bit of research on the Peace Corps and very little bit of research on Malawi. I went in as blank as I could because I wanted to get everything as an experience, rather than judging it based off of what I had read. So I actually, and to this day, I still feel like for me that was the best way of approaching it, because everything was very new and interesting. And when I spoke with other people in my group, they were saying, oh well, I read this book, so I was expecting this, and or I watched these videos, so I was expecting that where for me, everything was greenfield. Everything was like clean slate. And I got to just enjoy things moment by moment rather than comparing it to, you know what, my expectations of what Malawi was going to be like were.

[Assistant] Makes sense to me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And I was expected to go get a job, 9 to 5, make money, kind of, you know, which all makes sense. I'm not saying it wasn't, you know, bad advice, but it was not exactly what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Did you, uh, in getting yourself ready to go to Malawi, what kind of, what kind of process did you, did you do, besides the research?

[User] I actually, and this is where I feel like I do kind of differ from a lot of people. I wanted it to be a very, um. I want to be, I didn't want to go in with any notions or, or, uh, perceptions. So I did very little bit of research on the Peace Corps and very little bit of research on Malawi. I went in as blank as I could because I wanted to get everything as an experience, rather than judging it based off of what I had read. So I actually, and to this day, I still feel like for me that was the best way of approaching it, because everything was very new and interesting. And when I spoke with other people in my group, they were saying, oh well, I read this book, so I was expecting this, and or I watched these videos, so I was expecting that where for me, everything was greenfield. Everything was like clean slate. And I got to just enjoy things moment by moment rather than comparing it to, you know what, my expectations of what Malawi was going to be like were.

[Assistant] Makes sense to me.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And instead of going in with a lot of preconceived notions, you just went in with an open.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I actually, and this is where I feel like I do kind of differ from a lot of people. I wanted it to be a very, um. I want to be, I didn't want to go in with any notions or, or, uh, perceptions. So I did very little bit of research on the Peace Corps and very little bit of research on Malawi. I went in as blank as I could because I wanted to get everything as an experience, rather than judging it based off of what I had read. So I actually, and to this day, I still feel like for me that was the best way of approaching it, because everything was very new and interesting. And when I spoke with other people in my group, they were saying, oh well, I read this book, so I was expecting this, and or I watched these videos, so I was expecting that where for me, everything was greenfield. Everything was like clean slate. And I got to just enjoy things moment by moment rather than comparing it to, you know what, my expectations of what Malawi was going to be like were.

[Assistant] Makes sense to me.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And instead of going in with a lot of preconceived notions, you just went in with an open.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Attitude and mind. Um. How long was it between the time you got your invitation and, and when you made up your mind that you were going to accept?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And instead of going in with a lot of preconceived notions, you just went in with an open.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Attitude and mind. Um. How long was it between the time you got your invitation and, and when you made up your mind that you were going to accept?

[User] The moment I applied, I was going to go.

[Assistant] If you got accepted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Attitude and mind. Um. How long was it between the time you got your invitation and, and when you made up your mind that you were going to accept?

[User] The moment I applied, I was going to go.

[Assistant] If you got accepted.

[User] If I got accepted. That's, that's the way I tend to work, is I'll make a decision to do something and then I will follow through on that. Uh, so I knew I was going to go when I got my invitation. Like I said, I was a little, I thought there was a mistake at first, but once I got that all cleared out, which was, you know, the next day or so, um, I knew I was going to accept and go.

[Assistant] Great. So now you're, um, staging, I guess, and meeting up with, were there others in the group that were going to go over to training with you, or were you on your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The moment I applied, I was going to go.

[Assistant] If you got accepted.

[User] If I got accepted. That's, that's the way I tend to work, is I'll make a decision to do something and then I will follow through on that. Uh, so I knew I was going to go when I got my invitation. Like I said, I was a little, I thought there was a mistake at first, but once I got that all cleared out, which was, you know, the next day or so, um, I knew I was going to accept and go.

[Assistant] Great. So now you're, um, staging, I guess, and meeting up with, were there others in the group that were going to go over to training with you, or were you on your own?

[User] Yeah, we all met up in Philadelphia for, I want to say, three days, uh, just to get, uh, paperwork done. I think we had to get a couple of vaccines. Um, I don't quite remember everything you had to do. I think there was, I think it was mostly used as an orientation. So people were talking about, you know, particular rules for, any organization you join usually has an orientation day or two. So it was no different than that. Uh, so I actually flew up from DC to Philadelphia with someone else. I saw a woman get on the plane with like, a huge bag and, you know, all that. And I asked her, because the plane was like half empty, I asked her if she was going to the Peace Corps, and she said yes. So we sat next to each other and we talked the whole way up, and we ended up being in the same group and went to Malawi together.

[Assistant] Great, indeed. Um, so after your three days of orientation in Philadelphia, you, you took wing and, uh, what was your, um, you know, what was your travel itinerary? I'm assuming there was not a direct flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It's very hot. And I had lived in San Antonio, um, which is not by any means a cool city. Uh, but I didn't expect it to be quite that hot. Um, and just, uh, you know, you get off of runway, right? And you're walking, you're walking across, like, maybe 200 meters of some runway into this shabby concrete building that is like the international airport of Malawi. And you're thinking like, oh, okay. Like, I've never seen an airport like this, you know? And you're just, I feel like you're, I was always kind of surprised because, like, I understood that Malawi being the poorest, least developed nation in the world is not going to have like running water and electricity in homes.

But to not have things like that in airports was surprising, you know, like. And of course, the Lilongwe airport has electricity and running water. But to have it be so bare and have it be so, uh, opposite of what you'd think of an airport in America with, like, bustling and clean and efficient. And it was the opposite of all that was just very, uh, very interesting to me.

[Assistant] Welcome to Africa.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Welcome to Malawi. Uh, did you have a Peace Corps representative meeting the group at the airport?

[User] It was actually really nice. We had a couple of staff members who got there, but we also, Malawi also did, um, and I don't know if they do it still, but they did at the time when I was there, was they would have volunteers who are currently serving, uh, whoever just happened to be in Lilongwe that day, I think. They would come to the airport and they would cheer for you when you got off the plane. So when we got off the plane, there was this bunch of people cheering for us, which was really nice.

[Assistant] That was good. That was good. So describe where you were trained, the physical site.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User]
Yeah. So I stayed with a family. It was a mother, a father, two daughters who were maybe 14 and 12-ish, and a young boy maybe 3 or 4. Um, again, they, they were very, very funny, I'll say, for, for the Chewa people. Uh, that's the tribe that lives in that area. Uh, they were, they are very, very funny people. Everything's a joke. And even if you don't, if, even if you can't say a punchline, you can still be humorous. And they were just all, like the kids were funny. The parents were funny.

I never learned their names. I stayed with them for like eight weeks, and every time they said their name, it was something different. You know, it was an English name because they were trying to be nice to me, but it was always like a biblical English name. So one day the daughter's name is Mary, but the next day it's, you know, you know, a different. I don't know my, I don't know the Bible, but it was just a different, like biblical name because they were just trying to give me a nickname to call them. But the result was I never knew their names. And I know it really wasn't that important, right? Because you call the father "father," you call the mother "mother," you call the girls "sister" and you call the boy "brother." So it wasn't that big of a deal not to know their names. But I always thought that was funny. That I live with a family for eight weeks and never learned their names.

[Assistant] That is interesting. But, um, they would provide you with a different name each day, and they weren't particularly committed to the?

[User] Right. And then the next day they just chose a different one that I could call them if I wanted to.

[Assistant] I see. Well, they obviously had some biblical exposure, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And then the next day they just chose a different one that I could call them if I wanted to.

[Assistant] I see. Well, they obviously had some biblical exposure, I guess.

[User] Right. And they were having fun with me. Like I said, they're a joking, fun culture. So they were also just, that was part of the humor of the situation.

[Assistant] Okay. And then you, did you have to walk back to the college for the actual?

[User] So, so the, the training villages were, I would say like 10 or 15k from the college. So they would pick us up in busses and bring us back to the college if need be. I think we went back to the, if I'm remembering correctly, I think like every Wednesday we went back to the college. Um, but for the most part we stayed in our training villages.

[Assistant] So what kind of training were you getting in the training village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chichewa, yes.

[Assistant] Because that happens to be the.

[User] It's like 60 percent of the people in Malawi are Chewa.

[Assistant] The tribe.

[User] Right. The tribe Chewa. Uh, and then the rest are, uh, then the rest are just kind of broken up. I think maybe 20 percent Tumbuka. And then it gets into like five, 10 percent for the rest of the tribes.

[Assistant] Right. Right. When you weren't in class at the university, when you were in your training village, specifically with the family, you know, what was it? What was it like around the dinner table?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Sauce. Yes. Um, or you might have some greens. So the greens are always boiled, so, so it'd be boiled, um, mustard greens or boiled, um, uh, pumpkin leaves or something along those lines. Well, when you're cooking, you're only cooking one thing at a time. So the nsima must be hot. So the nsima is the last thing you cook. So the first thing you cook is usually the greens. So when you're eating, the nsima is boiling hot in your hand. But the greens are always like ice cold by the time you're eating. So one thing I learned was, if you grab the nsima and it's too hot, you can always stick your hands in the greens to cool, cool your fingers down.

Um, so, but again, it's, my family didn't have any electricity or anything, so it's. We might have like turned on like one little flashlight or like maybe there's a candle in the corner burning. But you really can't see anything, so you kind of feel around for a bowl, and then you kind of just like, you try to figure out what's in the bowl, and that's kind of how you eat.

[Assistant] Well, it sounds like a very informal dining.

[User] Yes. And it's a, it's a very family orientated culture. So. So the thought of eating your plate while someone else eats their plate is very strange.

[Assistant] So it was family style dining in the best sense of the word.

[User] Right there on the floor.

[Assistant] So, uh, do you have a favorite memory of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. But it was also the situation where they were teaching me the language of where I was going, not where I was staying, which makes a lot of sense. It was just while I was staying there, it was unfortunate. I did, I was able to join the soccer team for the village of my training village, um, which was fun. I got to, got to play soccer with the guys and it was just, it was a good time.

[Assistant] Do, in the, in the training village, they were speaking Chichewa?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Because they were.

[User] They were Chewa.

[Assistant] They were Chewa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were Chewa.

[Assistant] They were Chewa.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So the whole country for the most part, I mean, when you get out into the bush, the people only speak the language of their area. But for the most part the country all speaks Chichewa, but they'll also speak their language if they're Tumbuka or if they're, you know, Lomwe, or Tonga like my tribe. But this village, because they already spoke Chichewa, didn't speak any other language.

[Assistant] I see. Um, okay. And um, so what was the length of the training period again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So the whole country for the most part, I mean, when you get out into the bush, the people only speak the language of their area. But for the most part the country all speaks Chichewa, but they'll also speak their language if they're Tumbuka or if they're, you know, Lomwe, or Tonga like my tribe. But this village, because they already spoke Chichewa, didn't speak any other language.

[Assistant] I see. Um, okay. And um, so what was the length of the training period again?

[User] About two months.

[Assistant] Okay. And, uh, what happened after training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the whole country for the most part, I mean, when you get out into the bush, the people only speak the language of their area. But for the most part the country all speaks Chichewa, but they'll also speak their language if they're Tumbuka or if they're, you know, Lomwe, or Tonga like my tribe. But this village, because they already spoke Chichewa, didn't speak any other language.

[Assistant] I see. Um, okay. And um, so what was the length of the training period again?

[User] About two months.

[Assistant] Okay. And, uh, what happened after training?

[User] So at the end of our training, we had a few days that we went to a site visit. So I went up to my village. I lived basically in the suburbs of a, of a provincial capital. So like a state capital.

[Assistant] What city? So what city was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About two months.

[Assistant] Okay. And, uh, what happened after training?

[User] So at the end of our training, we had a few days that we went to a site visit. So I went up to my village. I lived basically in the suburbs of a, of a provincial capital. So like a state capital.

[Assistant] What city? So what city was that?

[User] It was called Nkhata Bay. Uh, and if you ever want to Google it, it's absolutely beautiful. Um, it's, I always laugh about, it's kind of the Vegas of Malawi, but it's, um, it's on the lake, Lake Malawi. Um, and it's like a beach resort town, but it's also where 80 percent of the production of honey is in Malawi.

[Assistant] Okay. So you, you finished up training and you did a couple days orientation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So at the end of our training, we had a few days that we went to a site visit. So I went up to my village. I lived basically in the suburbs of a, of a provincial capital. So like a state capital.

[Assistant] What city? So what city was that?

[User] It was called Nkhata Bay. Uh, and if you ever want to Google it, it's absolutely beautiful. Um, it's, I always laugh about, it's kind of the Vegas of Malawi, but it's, um, it's on the lake, Lake Malawi. Um, and it's like a beach resort town, but it's also where 80 percent of the production of honey is in Malawi.

[Assistant] Okay. So you, you finished up training and you did a couple days orientation.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Did, did anybody bail from the training at the end before taking their assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was called Nkhata Bay. Uh, and if you ever want to Google it, it's absolutely beautiful. Um, it's, I always laugh about, it's kind of the Vegas of Malawi, but it's, um, it's on the lake, Lake Malawi. Um, and it's like a beach resort town, but it's also where 80 percent of the production of honey is in Malawi.

[Assistant] Okay. So you, you finished up training and you did a couple days orientation.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Did, did anybody bail from the training at the end before taking their assignment?

[User] I don't know if anyone bailed at the end. We had, we had someone not show up in Philadelphia. And we had someone who, her very first day in, uh, when we were all going to our, our training village, which is like five days into country. She left that day. She, she couldn't, she didn't want to deal with it. Um, and she had her, she had good reasons. Um, you know, it's not every, not every place is for everyone and everything like that. So she left. Uh, but I don't. I think after that, we, everyone swore in. We actually didn't have too many people leave. It was strange when someone eats heat out of our group. I think we only had maybe 4 or 5 the whole time out of like 50. That's really not too bad.

[Assistant] No, I'd say that's a pretty high percentage of people that hang in there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Did, did anybody bail from the training at the end before taking their assignment?

[User] I don't know if anyone bailed at the end. We had, we had someone not show up in Philadelphia. And we had someone who, her very first day in, uh, when we were all going to our, our training village, which is like five days into country. She left that day. She, she couldn't, she didn't want to deal with it. Um, and she had her, she had good reasons. Um, you know, it's not every, not every place is for everyone and everything like that. So she left. Uh, but I don't. I think after that, we, everyone swore in. We actually didn't have too many people leave. It was strange when someone eats heat out of our group. I think we only had maybe 4 or 5 the whole time out of like 50. That's really not too bad.

[Assistant] No, I'd say that's a pretty high percentage of people that hang in there.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That's good. Um, so tell me about, um, your reaction to, uh, Nkhata Bay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Just carries a few, like a little convenience store?

[User] Yeah, exactly. Maybe made out of some corrugated steel and some nailed up wood, but it wasn't like a full fledged grocery.

[Assistant] So when you, uh, traveled around, what kind of mileage are you talking about? And did you have, uh, did the co-op own a truck?

[User] The co-op did own a truck. So maybe half the time I traveled, I traveled with the co-op, and half the time I didn't. So it depended on what the situation was. If we were delivering or picking up supplies, we would have the truck and we would try to make the same route for both of those things. Because gas, gas in Malawi was not only very expensive, but very, very, very hard to come by for some economic reasons that I don't know if you want me to get into. Um, but, but gasoline in Malawi was running every month at a shortage. So finding gasoline, I once spent three days in the honey truck waiting for gasoline just to get home, because that happened sometimes. Um, so sometimes if I was just like, let's say, collecting money or negotiating price on something, I would, uh, just take public transport or hitchhike my way around.

[Assistant] I see. And, uh. What does the countryside look like when you're traveling around in Malawi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Much older than I am. They were probably in their 40s.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And they, were they honey farmers?

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah. They were everything. They were, so everyone in Malawi is a farmer. Everyone. The president's a farmer. Everyone's a farmer. Um, but yeah, they were both honey farmers. They were originals. Um, there was three but one fell off. And there was these two who were just like the original people who have been doing this for like ten years. But they also did other things, uh, the director also had a workshop, like a carpentry workshop. And, and I mean, they did other little things. So part of me was also just teaching them. There was so much opportunity to do stuff in Malawi. So part of me was to try to teach them just to see opportunity, because that's very important for a business person is not necessarily just to do your job, you know, well, but to see potential, opportunity, and other things.

[Assistant] So you looked at your position as not just doing, but training them for the day when you were going to say goodbye and walk away, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you have a cell phone?

[User] Uh, I did, I had one of those, like, Nokia cell phones, like, um, the Nokia brick phones.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] It didn't always work, but it was good because sometimes I had to call, like, a supplier and say and find out, like, hey, I'm, I'm in one city, you're in the other city, but I'm not going to go all the way to you if you don't have what I need. So I'd call them. They'd say, yeah, yeah, we have it, come on over. I'd go there and they didn't have it, you know. Or maybe they did, and you never really knew. But at least I could get some things done by phone. But for most part, you had to really be places to get anything done.

[Assistant] At the office, um, was everything calculated in, um, all your work product was on paper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I did, I had one of those, like, Nokia cell phones, like, um, the Nokia brick phones.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] It didn't always work, but it was good because sometimes I had to call, like, a supplier and say and find out, like, hey, I'm, I'm in one city, you're in the other city, but I'm not going to go all the way to you if you don't have what I need. So I'd call them. They'd say, yeah, yeah, we have it, come on over. I'd go there and they didn't have it, you know. Or maybe they did, and you never really knew. But at least I could get some things done by phone. But for most part, you had to really be places to get anything done.

[Assistant] At the office, um, was everything calculated in, um, all your work product was on paper?

[User] Yes. Big ledger books. Everything was on paper. So the co- op had a computer that was like 12 years old and really didn't work. It had, I think, like almost like Office 93 on it or something like that, that I was able, or Office 95 I think, that I was able to use a couple spreadsheets when the computer was working, but it didn't work very often. So it wasn't some, it wasn't a big part of our business.

[Assistant] So did you ever go to the capital for Peace Corps, uh, training class, reunions, or social time or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they absolutely were. All of them were.

[Assistant] All of them were.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, it was. There, the guys at the co-op were very capable, very intelligent, very good at their jobs. They just didn't know the higher level business things. And why would they? You know what I mean? And so, so what they brought to the table was like a lot of good knowledge and experience. What I brought to the table was more on the education point of view. So I also have to thank, a lot of hard work went in those two years. Not all that hard work came from me, so I have to thank a lot of the people back home. I would run into some problem that I couldn't figure out, and I would, when I was in the capital, I'd write an email to a buddy of mine I went to school with. And by the time I could get email again, he had written this like long thing citing sources of like how, how some other company had dealt with what we were dealing with. And it was usually from like 1910 America, you know, like this is how Carnegie handled it.

[Assistant] I see.

[User] You know, and I would read it and then I'd come up with some strategy for this business problem based off of that. So I've got to say, there were a lot of people in the, in America, in Malawi, um, that would help me through a lot of this. And then I'd bring it back to the co- op and say, hey, this is, you know, this is a strategy. What do you guys think? We would tweak it together because they had this specific industry knowledge, specific company knowledge. And then we would, we would go forward with with some kind of plan.

[Assistant] You obviously spent a lot of time and effort and made a huge impact in the operations of the co-op while you were there, but did you ever come in contact with anybody else's project, any other volunteer's projects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got into a car accident maybe six months in. Um, I was standing in the back of a truck with about 25 of my closest friends and, uh, like a, nah, like something ran in front of the road. I don't even know. And the truck went to a slamming stop. All 25 people leaned into the roll bar, and the roll bar broke and crushed my thumb in between the truck cab and the roll bar. Uh, and I didn't even notice until after because I was so happy I didn't fly out of the truck, uh, that my thumb had been crushed, and I, like, ripped up all the ligaments and everything like that.

[Assistant] So where did you, uh, get medical treatment for that?

[User] I really didn't. They tried their best, but they didn't have the facilities. At a certain point, they wanted to send me to South Africa, but I was just a little too busy, so I didn't go. Um, but it wasn't. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't anything too bad, like a fracture is going to heal. There's not really much they can do about that. They gave me a cortisone shot for the, um, I guess the ligaments. I'm not a health person, but, uh, you know, so it never really got better. But it's not the end of the world.

[Assistant] You talked some about coming back from being out in the field and your, you know, friends would get word of your impending arrival and be, be waiting for you. What, you know, describe a little bit about this group of Malawian friends.

[User] So I really had two friends that I was the closest with. One was the COO of the co-op or the driver. Um, and he was just such a good guy, such a, like he, he cared.

[Assistant] What was his name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know.

[Assistant] Not at all. Um, well, you mentioned that you were still in touch with one of your, um, friends, uh, from Malawi.

[User] Yeah, Robert.

[Assistant] Uh, any other involvement with the, with the country or with other people from the country since you returned?

[User]
Um. So. We. So I'll talk to other volunteers who served in Malawi, because you just have so much in common with them, more than you have with just other volunteers who serve in Sub-Saharan or other volunteers in general. Although, you know, it's a, it's a Venn diagram there, so there's a lot you have. But there's not too many Malawians around that I know. Um, so every now and again I'll run into a Malawian and it's kind of cool.

Um, I went into, I was sitting in a plane once and the two people next to me were speaking Chichewa. Okay, so because I traveled so much, by the end of my service, I was actually pretty decent at Chichewa. Um, so I heard two people speaking in Chichewa next to me. So I just started talking to them. And of course I can't, like, have a full conversation in Chichewa. I can, I can, I can order food, but on a plane, that's not really going to do much for you. Um, but, you know, so it's, it's pretty fun to, like, be able to talk about Malawi because even Malawians understand that, that there's, that they're a very small country and there's not that many of them. And you know what I mean? They have that understanding. So when you run into a Malawian, they're like blown away by it, that you've been to their country.

[Assistant] Since you've completed your service and returned to America, I know you've been involved with returned Peace Corps volunteer associations. Could you tell us a little bit about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They taught us how to shoot the cameras. They gave us a special eyepiece. It was a 45-degree angle so that we could use it in the small confines of the cockpit. Basically, the same kind of camera that we use on the Space Shuttle. They also taught us how to reload the magazines of film when they were expended. And that’s where I also got to know Ron [Ronald E.] McNair pretty well for the first time. Ron was in the back of the other plane that worked on STS-3 and –4, and being the two backseaters, we got to commiserate a lot and talk about our experiences and help each other load cameras with film and things like that. Then subsequently, after that, I got to be a support crewman for Ron on his first flight.

[Assistant] Let me ask you about STS 62-A, which was your Vandenberg flight, which didn’t actually—

[User] The flight that never happened.

[Assistant] Never happened. I did have a couple of questions. We talked a little bit about it last time.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Since you were going to be launching out of the Vandenberg complex, did the Department of Defense have any influence over things that normally NASA would have control over, or any more clout than NASA did for this mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] For instance, you were working on the Mark 3 suit.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk to us about testing that suit?

[User] Yes. They were looking at a lot of designs of suits that would maybe be types of suits we might want to use on the Moon or Mars or maybe building a Space Station. We didn’t know exactly at the time. Since I had been working in EVA [Extravehicular Activity] for quite a while and one of the few people still around the office who had actual EVA experience, we got to do quite a bit of testing on several different designs of suits and we even looked at an 8-psi [pounds per square inch] suit, which meant that you didn’t have to do any pre-breathes from inside the Space Station or Shuttle until you went outside, so you’d basically get in a suit and after a very short period of time of being in there and checking out the suit, then you could go straight out the hatch and not have any concern about the bends.\n\n Some of that testing was done by [Manley Lanier] “Sonny” Carter, some of it was done by Jeff [Jeffrey A.] Hoffman, and me. I think we were the three prime testers. It seemed like maybe Dave [David C.] Hilmers did some of it also. But it was looking at different types of suits that could work at the higher pressures. Again, probably the hardest part of the suit design is the gloves, and trying to come up with a glove design that would work at 8-psi was fairly difficult and we never really got there.\n\n We demonstrated that the suit components themselves probably was achievable, and we went through a fairly long series of comparisons between various different types of designs and components for the shoulders and knees and the waist and even the ankles, and did a lot of comparison work and came up to some fairly subjective answers. Some of that technology has actually been brought back into upgrades to the Shuttle suits.

[Assistant] How comfortable was that suit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were some material science people who just wanted to have some discussions. Basically, the way I would work it is they would come in and tell me what they wanted to do and then we would just kind of talk about, okay, how would we perform this experiment? What kind of indications will the experiment give to an operator? How would you want to present those? What would you do if you got certain types of indications? Basically, just kind of walking through an operational checklist of things of how you would support various different types of experiments. It wasn’t an overly successful venture, I guess I’d say. We did have some contact with various experimenters, but there weren’t that many that had money to build a whole lot of hardware at that point, so it was a good program, but it never had a whole lot of fruit.

[Assistant] As you mentioned, you were assigned to STS-27. Can you tell us a little bit about your training for that flight?

[User] Yes, I can. I flew on that flight as the middle seater, as the flight engineer, on the flight deck, so I worked with the commander, Hoot Gibson, and the pilot, Guy Gardner, on all the techniques and procedures for flying uphill and back down. I did some water training for contingency EVAs for spacewalks for anything that had to do with malfunctions of the Orbiter. The typical normal training that we had. Beyond that I probably can’t say a whole lot else. [Laughter]

[Assistant] What challenges did you face working on this mission? It was a classified mission.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You had worked previously on a mission just for NASA, which was quite open.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Yes. The crew was really a great crew to fly with. We had a lot of fun. There was four males, military background kind of guys, and didn’t have to tell anybody what we were doing because we couldn’t. It was a good time. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you work on any experiments that weren’t classified that you recall?

[User] You know, I honestly don’t recall. I think we may have had one or two small experiments that we had on the middeck, but I, frankly, don’t remember what they were, and I don’t remember if I could talk about them even if I did remember. [Laughs]

[Assistant] We don’t want to get you in trouble. Let’s talk about your next mission, which was STS-37.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] That was the Gamma Ray Observatory [GRO]. I understand that initially the crew did some visits out to TRW [Thompson-Ramo-Woodridge, Inc.] and to Goddard Space Flight Center [Greenbelt, Maryland]. Did you get to go on these trips?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] N5SCW. It’s no longer my call sign, since I let the license lapse.

[Assistant] Are there any other memories of this flight that you’d like to share with us?

[User] Can’t think of any right now. It was a very busy flight, and we worked well together as a crew. I guess the one thing I do recall in hindsight is the fact that Steve and Linda both got married to each other later on. So I accuse them, in hindsight, of supposed hanky-panky during their flight, but there was none of that going on. I did end up being their best man at their wedding, so that was another nice side benefit of the flight.

[Assistant] That’s great.

[User] Steve and I had known each other for quite a few years out of Edwards before we came here, and since he went to the University of Illinois [Urbana-Champaign, Illinois] and I went to Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana], we harassed each other quite often.

[Assistant] He did make it a point, when we interviewed him, to point out that he and Linda had no connection there during that mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Can’t think of any right now. It was a very busy flight, and we worked well together as a crew. I guess the one thing I do recall in hindsight is the fact that Steve and Linda both got married to each other later on. So I accuse them, in hindsight, of supposed hanky-panky during their flight, but there was none of that going on. I did end up being their best man at their wedding, so that was another nice side benefit of the flight.

[Assistant] That’s great.

[User] Steve and I had known each other for quite a few years out of Edwards before we came here, and since he went to the University of Illinois [Urbana-Champaign, Illinois] and I went to Purdue [University, West Lafayette, Indiana], we harassed each other quite often.

[Assistant] He did make it a point, when we interviewed him, to point out that he and Linda had no connection there during that mission.

[User] After you turn off the camera and recorder, I’ll tell you the real story.

[Assistant] Oh, all right. [Laughs]\n\n Your next mission was STS-55. That was an entirely different mission for you. That was an international mission, and you also served as the payload commander for that mission. Can you tell us what your duties were as the payload commander?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Matter of fact, we had a lot of help from DoD [Department of Defense] in tracking the pieces.

[Assistant] Did you recover any pieces to study those, or you did it all through analysis?

[User] No, all analysis. We did not recover any.

[Assistant] You were having to have the tank protected from the heat but also ice. Then when the orbiter finalized its decision for the tiles, I think there was some thinking that maybe it was going to be the tank that was going to possibly hold up the first launch. It ended up being those tiles. Were you able to share expertise from your TPS research?

[User] Yes. Aaron and I spent a lot of time together. It’s too bad that you don’t get to interview him. He was a very capable guy. I enjoyed working with him a lot. We spent a lot of time together, and when we would have program reviews we would look at all of the elements together in these reviews. One of the things that we did here at the Center—and this started way back even before Apollo—is we had program reviews with our Center Director, where the project manager would come in and present the project to the Center Director and all of his lab directors as well as the contractor would present. We would do that quarterly. It not only kept management apprised, it kept us on our toes, and it kept an involvement of all of the technical organizations very in real time with the project. I think that was extremely valuable. I saw it all the way through the Apollo program, and we continued it here through the elements at Marshall. I think it’s a very good way to keep Center management involved with the project.

[Assistant] I guess it also gave you a forum of helping to make the decisions on what component was going to be impacted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, all analysis. We did not recover any.

[Assistant] You were having to have the tank protected from the heat but also ice. Then when the orbiter finalized its decision for the tiles, I think there was some thinking that maybe it was going to be the tank that was going to possibly hold up the first launch. It ended up being those tiles. Were you able to share expertise from your TPS research?

[User] Yes. Aaron and I spent a lot of time together. It’s too bad that you don’t get to interview him. He was a very capable guy. I enjoyed working with him a lot. We spent a lot of time together, and when we would have program reviews we would look at all of the elements together in these reviews. One of the things that we did here at the Center—and this started way back even before Apollo—is we had program reviews with our Center Director, where the project manager would come in and present the project to the Center Director and all of his lab directors as well as the contractor would present. We would do that quarterly. It not only kept management apprised, it kept us on our toes, and it kept an involvement of all of the technical organizations very in real time with the project. I think that was extremely valuable. I saw it all the way through the Apollo program, and we continued it here through the elements at Marshall. I think it’s a very good way to keep Center management involved with the project.

[Assistant] I guess it also gave you a forum of helping to make the decisions on what component was going to be impacted.

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Seemed like any time that you had to save weight the external tank was the first place [you looked].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Seemed like any time that you had to save weight the external tank was the first place [you looked].

[User] It was the first place because the other propulsion units [did not have] much margin. We deliberately put margin in the tank, because until we flew it a few times you’re not really sure exactly what all those loads would be—and the loads are very complex, because it’s such an asymmetrical vehicle. It’s not like a nice vertical stack like we had on Saturn.\n\n One thing that’s unique, and I’m not sure the public ever really understood, was if you visualize the tank sitting on the pad, it’s bolted down by the two solid rocket motors. You’ve got the tank in the middle, then you’ve got the orbiter hanging off to the side. So here you got 250,000 pounds hanging on the side of this fairly rigid tank and solid [rocket motors]. When you light the orbiter engines first, it actually pushes the tank over, it bends it about three or four feet. The top of the tank actually goes off vertical about three or four feet, then you light the solids. Once they pressurize, it wants to pop it back straight, and you time all of that such that it lifts off when it’s [again] vertical. I still [enjoy] just watching, but for the casual observer you would never notice that detail.

[Assistant] That’s very interesting.

[User] My point is all of that is systems engineering and integration between engines and tanks and solids and orbiters. All of that has to be orchestrated down to milliseconds of timing relative to launch. But look how many times it’s worked.

[Assistant] Thank goodness. Speaking of which, I know that you were off on other projects when [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L accident] happened. Were you pulled back in to help with anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My point is all of that is systems engineering and integration between engines and tanks and solids and orbiters. All of that has to be orchestrated down to milliseconds of timing relative to launch. But look how many times it’s worked.

[Assistant] Thank goodness. Speaking of which, I know that you were off on other projects when [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L accident] happened. Were you pulled back in to help with anything?

[User] No. And that was deliberate, because I had been a part of the project. When that happened, I was the director of engineering here at the Center. I’d already moved off of hardware management, and they asked me to serve as the head of engineering. I basically took care of the engineering of all the other programs, but I was enjoined from working on the Challenger accident, which is right.

[Assistant] So you got to watch the external tank still do its job.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] You were also involved in the Hubble [Space Telescope], the program itself and how the Shuttle had to integrate with it as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. And that was deliberate, because I had been a part of the project. When that happened, I was the director of engineering here at the Center. I’d already moved off of hardware management, and they asked me to serve as the head of engineering. I basically took care of the engineering of all the other programs, but I was enjoined from working on the Challenger accident, which is right.

[Assistant] So you got to watch the external tank still do its job.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] You were also involved in the Hubble [Space Telescope], the program itself and how the Shuttle had to integrate with it as well.

[User] Yes, that was a very challenging program that I thoroughly enjoyed. I was the project manager for Hubble for three years, the last three years of the development, right up to the flight. We were going to launch the Shuttle in [August 1985], and then the accident happened in January. We had it all ready, and I’d served my commitment to that so I moved off after the accident. But I thoroughly enjoyed Hubble.\n\n One thing that helped me in managing the Hubble was I knew the Shuttle very well. The Shuttle and the Hubble could not have been integrated better in my judgment. The thing that surprised me the most was how the crews—especially on this last repair—developed the capability to do those repairs. We had designed the Hubble to be repaired, but we didn’t design it for them to take 110 #6 screws out. That just still blows my mind how they could do that with all the heavy gloves, but they did. I went to the Shuttle launch, I went to two of the repair launches, and I went to the last one, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

[Assistant] How is the tank impacted depending on the payloads?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] You were also involved in the Hubble [Space Telescope], the program itself and how the Shuttle had to integrate with it as well.

[User] Yes, that was a very challenging program that I thoroughly enjoyed. I was the project manager for Hubble for three years, the last three years of the development, right up to the flight. We were going to launch the Shuttle in [August 1985], and then the accident happened in January. We had it all ready, and I’d served my commitment to that so I moved off after the accident. But I thoroughly enjoyed Hubble.\n\n One thing that helped me in managing the Hubble was I knew the Shuttle very well. The Shuttle and the Hubble could not have been integrated better in my judgment. The thing that surprised me the most was how the crews—especially on this last repair—developed the capability to do those repairs. We had designed the Hubble to be repaired, but we didn’t design it for them to take 110 #6 screws out. That just still blows my mind how they could do that with all the heavy gloves, but they did. I went to the Shuttle launch, I went to two of the repair launches, and I went to the last one, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

[Assistant] How is the tank impacted depending on the payloads?

[User] Not at all. You build the tank for a payload capability that covers all the eventual things that the orbiter can do. The only real impact was making the tank lighter to make room for more payload. Because the tank virtually goes to orbit, it goes just a few hundred feet per second short of the orbital velocity that the orbiter needs. That says the tank is the one to go after weight, because it’s basically pound for pound. You take a pound out of the tank, you get almost a pound of payload.

[Assistant] When you stopped painting you saved thousands of pounds.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at all. You build the tank for a payload capability that covers all the eventual things that the orbiter can do. The only real impact was making the tank lighter to make room for more payload. Because the tank virtually goes to orbit, it goes just a few hundred feet per second short of the orbital velocity that the orbiter needs. That says the tank is the one to go after weight, because it’s basically pound for pound. You take a pound out of the tank, you get almost a pound of payload.

[Assistant] When you stopped painting you saved thousands of pounds.

[User] Oh, yes. That’s an interesting [experience]. We painted the first three tanks because we didn’t know how long it was going to be on the pad, and that foam is very susceptible to ultraviolet light so the longer it’s on the pad, the foam will start to deteriorate, and little minute surface [particles] will start to shed off. To avoid that, we painted the first [three] white. It was like 1,500 pounds of paint we put on it, basically a flat latex paint. You wouldn’t believe the ugly letters I [received] when we took the paint off. “That old ugly colored tank.” Most of them were from ladies that just thought it really looked good before.

[Assistant] Just wasn’t pretty anymore.

[User] Wasn’t pretty anymore. I wouldn’t have thought the public would have paid [that] much attention to it.

[Assistant] Did you do tests for the elements of nature, how long the tank could be exposed on the Cape? Or was that mostly done with analysis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. That’s an interesting [experience]. We painted the first three tanks because we didn’t know how long it was going to be on the pad, and that foam is very susceptible to ultraviolet light so the longer it’s on the pad, the foam will start to deteriorate, and little minute surface [particles] will start to shed off. To avoid that, we painted the first [three] white. It was like 1,500 pounds of paint we put on it, basically a flat latex paint. You wouldn’t believe the ugly letters I [received] when we took the paint off. “That old ugly colored tank.” Most of them were from ladies that just thought it really looked good before.

[Assistant] Just wasn’t pretty anymore.

[User] Wasn’t pretty anymore. I wouldn’t have thought the public would have paid [that] much attention to it.

[Assistant] Did you do tests for the elements of nature, how long the tank could be exposed on the Cape? Or was that mostly done with analysis?

[User] Analysis. We did a tremendous amount of testing of the TPS, and we did a lot of it right out here at the Center. Every time we’d have to change the chemistry of it, we would go all the way back through these tests and expose them to arc jets, we would expose them to structural tests, we would expose them to environmental testing. I’m sure we went through that probably six or eight times in the life of the program. TPS quality and qualification testing was a big component of the program, and it was right up to the end.

[Assistant] You had a range safety system. How were you involved with that? Tell us about the importance of why, then of course if you were part of that when it stopped.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wasn’t pretty anymore. I wouldn’t have thought the public would have paid [that] much attention to it.

[Assistant] Did you do tests for the elements of nature, how long the tank could be exposed on the Cape? Or was that mostly done with analysis?

[User] Analysis. We did a tremendous amount of testing of the TPS, and we did a lot of it right out here at the Center. Every time we’d have to change the chemistry of it, we would go all the way back through these tests and expose them to arc jets, we would expose them to structural tests, we would expose them to environmental testing. I’m sure we went through that probably six or eight times in the life of the program. TPS quality and qualification testing was a big component of the program, and it was right up to the end.

[Assistant] You had a range safety system. How were you involved with that? Tell us about the importance of why, then of course if you were part of that when it stopped.

[User] Fortunately we ended up not having to do too much of it, because we had to have a linear shaped charge that you could cut the tank [with]. Basically in our case, if you had to abort a flight, we had a linear shaped charge that would cut a big gash in the LOX tank and a big gash in the hydrogen tank. Once you destroyed the integrity of the pressure vessel then it crumbled very quickly so it wasn’t that hard to accommodate. It was a critical system, but it was pretty benign. It just went along for the ride, but it had to work. We knew that from the beginning, so that wasn’t anything that surprised us because we’d [worked] that on Apollo.

[Assistant] Were there discussions about including it, or was it always part of the plan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Analysis. We did a tremendous amount of testing of the TPS, and we did a lot of it right out here at the Center. Every time we’d have to change the chemistry of it, we would go all the way back through these tests and expose them to arc jets, we would expose them to structural tests, we would expose them to environmental testing. I’m sure we went through that probably six or eight times in the life of the program. TPS quality and qualification testing was a big component of the program, and it was right up to the end.

[Assistant] You had a range safety system. How were you involved with that? Tell us about the importance of why, then of course if you were part of that when it stopped.

[User] Fortunately we ended up not having to do too much of it, because we had to have a linear shaped charge that you could cut the tank [with]. Basically in our case, if you had to abort a flight, we had a linear shaped charge that would cut a big gash in the LOX tank and a big gash in the hydrogen tank. Once you destroyed the integrity of the pressure vessel then it crumbled very quickly so it wasn’t that hard to accommodate. It was a critical system, but it was pretty benign. It just went along for the ride, but it had to work. We knew that from the beginning, so that wasn’t anything that surprised us because we’d [worked] that on Apollo.

[Assistant] Were there discussions about including it, or was it always part of the plan?

[User] We’d have liked to not include it, but it really wasn’t a choice.

[Assistant] Were there other safety measures that you had put in with the tank? I know we talked about the debris and making sure it was in the ocean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fortunately we ended up not having to do too much of it, because we had to have a linear shaped charge that you could cut the tank [with]. Basically in our case, if you had to abort a flight, we had a linear shaped charge that would cut a big gash in the LOX tank and a big gash in the hydrogen tank. Once you destroyed the integrity of the pressure vessel then it crumbled very quickly so it wasn’t that hard to accommodate. It was a critical system, but it was pretty benign. It just went along for the ride, but it had to work. We knew that from the beginning, so that wasn’t anything that surprised us because we’d [worked] that on Apollo.

[Assistant] Were there discussions about including it, or was it always part of the plan?

[User] We’d have liked to not include it, but it really wasn’t a choice.

[Assistant] Were there other safety measures that you had put in with the tank? I know we talked about the debris and making sure it was in the ocean.

[User] The most critical to a pressure vessel is the factor of safety. That’s how much capability the structure has over and above the maximum anticipated load. We typically liked to have a 1.4 factor of safety for structural components. In the tank because we understood the capability, we understood the loads—it was I think one of the first where we ever took the factor of safety down to one and a quarter. Leaving you only 25 percent margin is getting pretty precise for a vehicle as complex as this. But we did that because we had enough testing to really understand the loads and how they dissipated through the structure.

[Assistant] It seems like it was a system that one piece impacted the next piece.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’d have liked to not include it, but it really wasn’t a choice.

[Assistant] Were there other safety measures that you had put in with the tank? I know we talked about the debris and making sure it was in the ocean.

[User] The most critical to a pressure vessel is the factor of safety. That’s how much capability the structure has over and above the maximum anticipated load. We typically liked to have a 1.4 factor of safety for structural components. In the tank because we understood the capability, we understood the loads—it was I think one of the first where we ever took the factor of safety down to one and a quarter. Leaving you only 25 percent margin is getting pretty precise for a vehicle as complex as this. But we did that because we had enough testing to really understand the loads and how they dissipated through the structure.

[Assistant] It seems like it was a system that one piece impacted the next piece.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Do you believe that the TPS was the most critical system, or is it hard to consider one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The most critical to a pressure vessel is the factor of safety. That’s how much capability the structure has over and above the maximum anticipated load. We typically liked to have a 1.4 factor of safety for structural components. In the tank because we understood the capability, we understood the loads—it was I think one of the first where we ever took the factor of safety down to one and a quarter. Leaving you only 25 percent margin is getting pretty precise for a vehicle as complex as this. But we did that because we had enough testing to really understand the loads and how they dissipated through the structure.

[Assistant] It seems like it was a system that one piece impacted the next piece.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Do you believe that the TPS was the most critical system, or is it hard to consider one?

[User] It was probably the most demanding because it had so many different requirements on it. It had to adhere to the tank, it had to withstand the cryogenic temperatures at the surface, it had to withstand the [aerodynamic] loads on it, and it had to keep the surface above 32 degrees. That’s tough—and it had to be light. So I would say from a complexity of requirements, the TPS is probably the number one from a tank standpoint. And the structures would obviously be second.

[Assistant] You stated a couple times about working with the vendors and getting to know them so well. This was somewhat of a change from what you had done in Apollo because so much had been done here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Do you believe that the TPS was the most critical system, or is it hard to consider one?

[User] It was probably the most demanding because it had so many different requirements on it. It had to adhere to the tank, it had to withstand the cryogenic temperatures at the surface, it had to withstand the [aerodynamic] loads on it, and it had to keep the surface above 32 degrees. That’s tough—and it had to be light. So I would say from a complexity of requirements, the TPS is probably the number one from a tank standpoint. And the structures would obviously be second.

[Assistant] You stated a couple times about working with the vendors and getting to know them so well. This was somewhat of a change from what you had done in Apollo because so much had been done here.

[User] The reason being, the tank was the first [real] production program NASA had ever done. We got a lot of special attention with the tank because NASA had [typically] built maybe a dozen articles, like Apollo we did 15, [only required] one or two or three of a kind. NASA really had never done a production program [as large as required by Shuttle], and still hasn’t. The tank is still the biggest production program as far as quantity. The solids are obviously close to that. The engines are close to that because we built a lot of engines and we built a lot of motors, but those [were reused]. So far as a throwaway, the tank is the largest production program that the agency has ever done. Consequently, it was unique in that that was not characteristic of NASA programs.

[Assistant] And the longest running. It’s been going on for years till just, as you mentioned, recently the last one. A lot of tanks came out of that facility, haven’t they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was probably the most demanding because it had so many different requirements on it. It had to adhere to the tank, it had to withstand the cryogenic temperatures at the surface, it had to withstand the [aerodynamic] loads on it, and it had to keep the surface above 32 degrees. That’s tough—and it had to be light. So I would say from a complexity of requirements, the TPS is probably the number one from a tank standpoint. And the structures would obviously be second.

[Assistant] You stated a couple times about working with the vendors and getting to know them so well. This was somewhat of a change from what you had done in Apollo because so much had been done here.

[User] The reason being, the tank was the first [real] production program NASA had ever done. We got a lot of special attention with the tank because NASA had [typically] built maybe a dozen articles, like Apollo we did 15, [only required] one or two or three of a kind. NASA really had never done a production program [as large as required by Shuttle], and still hasn’t. The tank is still the biggest production program as far as quantity. The solids are obviously close to that. The engines are close to that because we built a lot of engines and we built a lot of motors, but those [were reused]. So far as a throwaway, the tank is the largest production program that the agency has ever done. Consequently, it was unique in that that was not characteristic of NASA programs.

[Assistant] And the longest running. It’s been going on for years till just, as you mentioned, recently the last one. A lot of tanks came out of that facility, haven’t they?

[User] Sure have, [and it required] a lot of metal.

[Assistant] How many people did you have working for you when it was at the peak during those first flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The reason being, the tank was the first [real] production program NASA had ever done. We got a lot of special attention with the tank because NASA had [typically] built maybe a dozen articles, like Apollo we did 15, [only required] one or two or three of a kind. NASA really had never done a production program [as large as required by Shuttle], and still hasn’t. The tank is still the biggest production program as far as quantity. The solids are obviously close to that. The engines are close to that because we built a lot of engines and we built a lot of motors, but those [were reused]. So far as a throwaway, the tank is the largest production program that the agency has ever done. Consequently, it was unique in that that was not characteristic of NASA programs.

[Assistant] And the longest running. It’s been going on for years till just, as you mentioned, recently the last one. A lot of tanks came out of that facility, haven’t they?

[User] Sure have, [and it required] a lot of metal.

[Assistant] How many people did you have working for you when it was at the peak during those first flights?

[User] In the project office I had probably 25 or 30 people. I had probably another 200 or 300 here at the Center, not full-time but almost full-time, in all the engineering disciplines. You’d need to get from Martin, how many. We probably had I would guess 1,000, 1,200 people by the time we got into production at Michoud.

[Assistant] It’s easy now to look back on the decision of putting so much money into low development cost compared to operational cost. Can you talk about how much time you did or didn’t spend on looking at the overall operational cost compared to trying to move into development at a lower cost?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the project office I had probably 25 or 30 people. I had probably another 200 or 300 here at the Center, not full-time but almost full-time, in all the engineering disciplines. You’d need to get from Martin, how many. We probably had I would guess 1,000, 1,200 people by the time we got into production at Michoud.

[Assistant] It’s easy now to look back on the decision of putting so much money into low development cost compared to operational cost. Can you talk about how much time you did or didn’t spend on looking at the overall operational cost compared to trying to move into development at a lower cost?

[User] Because the tank was a high production thing, we spent a lot of time—and we should, because like I say, early on we put almost $1 billion just in the tooling. The other key thing that I wanted and the project wanted was to build all of the test articles on exactly the same tooling that we built the flight articles, because [we] wanted to know that I was testing exactly what [we were] flying. That is so critical. If you don’t do that, if you don’t know what you’re testing, then you don’t know that your test program is qualifying your flight hardware. That’s why we put so much money at the front end of the tooling. DoD would not spend as much money on tooling on the early development articles, and then once they had flown a few, they would go into a production contract.\n\n What we did differently [was starting] our production contract at day one. And that was gutty. That was out of the government’s experience. It was another thing that was quite unique for NASA, to basically start a production program at day one. What [we] wanted to do was make sure that we were testing what we were going to fly, and use the same welding techniques, the same TPS, all of that the same that you would have on the first flight.

[Assistant] You had a pretty daunting 20 a year, 400 in that facility.

[User] That was big then.

[Assistant] It’s big now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What are your memories of STS-1?

[User] I was just in awe of how such a complicated vehicle like that—from a flight test perspective, I thought it was the most complicated and successful flight test I’ve ever seen. I couldn’t believe that for the first flight test, we were going to actually do the whole mission from beginning to end. Although it was obvious that that was the right thing to do, it still had a tremendous amount of risk associated with it because if there’s nothing, that if I was a test pilot, and I controlled it and there was any other way around it, nobody would have ever flown that flight the way we flew it. But just due to the physics of it all and you just couldn’t do it any other way, other than the way NASA pulled it off with minimum crew and so forth, then it just all worked. So I was just dazzled by that fact that we could take such a complicated thing and make it work for the first time. And that feeling hasn’t left me.\n\n And when we launched the next one here, I still think it’s the most complicated thing that human beings can ever undertake, and for the most part, we do it very, very well, but it’s just fraught with risk, and I held my breath every time. In STS-1, I held my breath, and I stayed up or I don’t think I slept much. I didn’t have much to do, but I just wanted to be over listening so that basically I could understand, because I knew I’d have to fly it one day. Still there was a lot about it that I didn’t understand. I wanted to understand what the crew was going through and what and how the systems were performing on orbit. I didn’t sleep a lot during that three or four-day flight, but then I was just happy when it got back. I [was] just in awe. That was my feeling that I remember.

[Assistant] Were you here in Houston during that flight?

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] Besides working as a member of the support group for STS-2, what were some of your other assignments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that’s what I remember about landing. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Did you have any PR [Public Relations] duties after this flight?

[User] We had PR duties before that flight and after the flight, and most of them were classified in nature, going out to whatever it was we had onboard and talking to the people that helped make it. That’s all.

[Assistant] No hometown tours or anything like that?

[User] I think I did that, too, yeah, I did that, but I don’t remember much of them.

[Assistant] What were your duties after this flight until you were named to your second flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, sure.

[Assistant] Were there any challenges that you had to face on that mission, that you can talk about?

[User] I don’t recall any, other than getting Ulysses out, and I don’t recall any. And the other challenge was this was my first landing. It was going to be at Edwards Air Force Base, and I didn’t want to land at a hundred and seventy-five knots, I knew that, and the landing turned out to be—I decided to use a different technique that the rest of the Astronaut Office was using at that point, and that turned out to work wonderfully. And for the most part, a lot of guys have adapted that technique.

[Assistant] And what was that technique?

[User] Basically, fly the vehicle down to about five feet, and then don’t touch it anymore because ground effect, the vehicle’s got so much wingspan that once it gets down to ground effect, there’s a natural cushioning. In fact, you’ll end up landing at maybe about one foot per second. You won’t be the world record touchdown. You won’t go .001 and then be able to say you did point, but you’ll land consistently at one foot per second. And so that was my technique for that sort of thing, and it turned out to work just like I hoped it. So I think the Astronaut Office liked that. I think there’s a lot of people that—I think I’ve always said, “This thing flies very well without pilot inputs.” [Laughs] “It just occasionally needs to be guided, so just guide it, don’t fly it.” So that worked out well.

[Assistant] Anything end up on your windshield?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] KB5SIW.

[Assistant] Did everyone have a chance to experiment with the SAREX or was it just—

[User] Ken Bowersox didn’t. I don’t think Ken was particularly enamored with it. He wasn’t interested in it, and so it was myself and Ellen Baker, for the most part. Ellen thought it was as much fun as I did, because she was on the other shift, and she was worried she wouldn’t have anything to do. So as soon as I got done, she would get on, and she said she’d go over her list of girlfriends that she had collected on her side of the world that she flies over when we’re asleep. So she had a ball, too. Ellen and I still have fun recalling that experience.

[Assistant] I noticed your crew was up during the Fourth of July. Did you have any sort of celebration?

[User] Not a lot. Not a lot. No, we took out a moment to honor America and tried to do the best we could with that sort of thing, but there wasn’t really much about that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Any other interesting anecdotes from this flight or landing?