[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, religious studies was in the British curriculum.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So every school had a certain amount of Bible knowledge that was taught. But, um, it's just that more of the people, the missionaries there would have been what most people would consider to be straight laced. And I was straight laced myself. So in the end, it worked out great because I really had a wonderful relationship with those.

[Assistant] So that's where you were assigned?

[User] I was assigned to Robert Blake School.

[Assistant] During your first three weeks, did you have much interaction with British officials or British people who were still in Nyasaland?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The boma, or the government center, was about two and a half miles away, and the, uh, the district commissioner was named Mr. Ashton, if I remember correctly.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And he invited us three, there were three of us placed at Robert Blake School at Kongwe, invited us for dinner. Well, that was quite an experience because he had this huge, by Malawi standards, huge white, uh, white, um. The white stuff they put on?

[Assistant] Whitewash?

[User] Whitewashed house and veranda and lawns and gardens and servants and uniformed policemen around giving all this grand service. And, um, that was a real insight into the British colonial picture. So we were invited there and also meeting a lot of African.

[Assistant] But do you recall your interaction with him? I mean, what did he, what did he make of you, you as Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he was the perfect gentleman. The British, though, in general, were resentful of us Americans. They knew they were leaving.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They, um, thought that America had let them down in the Suez Canal crisis in 1956.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that was, that really pulled the keystone out of the British Empire. I didn't even know what they were talking about. Now I've read up on it. Now I understand why they were resentful.

[Assistant] The death knell.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They, um, thought that America had let them down in the Suez Canal crisis in 1956.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that was, that really pulled the keystone out of the British Empire. I didn't even know what they were talking about. Now I've read up on it. Now I understand why they were resentful.

[Assistant] The death knell.

[User] But they were leaving and they knew they were dropping from a first rate power to a second rate power. And here were these young American kids who thought they knew so much.

[Assistant] So you went, you were taken from Blantyre. Did the school come and pick you up and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was, that really pulled the keystone out of the British Empire. I didn't even know what they were talking about. Now I've read up on it. Now I understand why they were resentful.

[Assistant] The death knell.

[User] But they were leaving and they knew they were dropping from a first rate power to a second rate power. And here were these young American kids who thought they knew so much.

[Assistant] So you went, you were taken from Blantyre. Did the school come and pick you up and?

[User] No, Peace Corps delivered us in Land Rovers.

[Assistant] During the three weeks, did the Peace Corps staff try to establish any policies about where you could travel, what they expected of you? Was there any kind of trying to shape what it is you would be doing? Do you recall any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they were leaving and they knew they were dropping from a first rate power to a second rate power. And here were these young American kids who thought they knew so much.

[Assistant] So you went, you were taken from Blantyre. Did the school come and pick you up and?

[User] No, Peace Corps delivered us in Land Rovers.

[Assistant] During the three weeks, did the Peace Corps staff try to establish any policies about where you could travel, what they expected of you? Was there any kind of trying to shape what it is you would be doing? Do you recall any of that?

[User] Yes, there certainly was. I don't recall too many specifics. But the one, one specific I remember was. [tape break] Back of my mind, I'd like to be a writer. And as soon as I heard that, it was like, oh well, I'm off the hook for that. Now, a year later, Malawi III showed up and Paul Theroux was a member of Malawi III and I remember specifically meeting him down at the rest house that the Peace Corps kept for us in Blantyre when we needed to, you know, get back to town and we had a place to sleep. And I remember talking to him and he said to me, I'm going to be a writer. And I thought, yeah, sure. Behind my smirk, you know, I thought, yeah, yeah, right. I'm going to be a writer, too, Paul Theroux. So that was quite amusing.

[Assistant] And I think he stayed only a year as a volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there certainly was. I don't recall too many specifics. But the one, one specific I remember was. [tape break] Back of my mind, I'd like to be a writer. And as soon as I heard that, it was like, oh well, I'm off the hook for that. Now, a year later, Malawi III showed up and Paul Theroux was a member of Malawi III and I remember specifically meeting him down at the rest house that the Peace Corps kept for us in Blantyre when we needed to, you know, get back to town and we had a place to sleep. And I remember talking to him and he said to me, I'm going to be a writer. And I thought, yeah, sure. Behind my smirk, you know, I thought, yeah, yeah, right. I'm going to be a writer, too, Paul Theroux. So that was quite amusing.

[Assistant] And I think he stayed only a year as a volunteer.

[User] He did write for publication.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] He broke the regulations and he wrote critical material about the Banda government and he published, it was published in material that was not in country. It was for public, to be read by Americans, but it got back to Banda. And Banda said, get him out of here. They kicked him out.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back to your beginning. You arrive at the school. There are three of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He did write for publication.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] He broke the regulations and he wrote critical material about the Banda government and he published, it was published in material that was not in country. It was for public, to be read by Americans, but it got back to Banda. And Banda said, get him out of here. They kicked him out.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back to your beginning. You arrive at the school. There are three of you.

[User] Three of us. Right. A couple and me.

[Assistant] And are you all to be English teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He broke the regulations and he wrote critical material about the Banda government and he published, it was published in material that was not in country. It was for public, to be read by Americans, but it got back to Banda. And Banda said, get him out of here. They kicked him out.

[Assistant] Well, let's go back to your beginning. You arrive at the school. There are three of you.

[User] Three of us. Right. A couple and me.

[Assistant] And are you all to be English teachers?

[User] Yes. Well, no, he was a, he was a chemist, industrial chemist, and he taught science.

[Assistant] And it was a fully established school, so it had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Three of us. Right. A couple and me.

[Assistant] And are you all to be English teachers?

[User] Yes. Well, no, he was a, he was a chemist, industrial chemist, and he taught science.

[Assistant] And it was a fully established school, so it had?

[User] The school had been running since 1950.

[Assistant] Did it have O-levels as well as A-levels?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not A-level.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Four years.

[Assistant] Four years.

[User] Four years.

[Assistant] Okay. Because in Ghana it was five. We had five forms. But, uh. Well, let's, let's talk about living conditions, then we'll talk about the teachers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Four years.

[Assistant] Four years.

[User] Four years.

[Assistant] Okay. Because in Ghana it was five. We had five forms. But, uh. Well, let's, let's talk about living conditions, then we'll talk about the teachers.

[User] Well, you know, we expected to live in grass huts from the publicity and the Peace Corps. And subsequently I have met volunteers who have lived in grass huts.

[Assistant] That's a rarity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With children often. And there were, uh, 2 or 3 Africans on the teaching staff.

[Assistant] Malawians?

[User] Malawians. And then also the three Americans who showed up. And that was the staff. It was an international staff, you might say. And they had built for their staff, really it was missionary housing, but lovely brick bungalows. You had running water, you had a wood stove for cooking. A little kitchen, it was very smoky, but cooking was done in the wood stove area or on the wood stove, like a cast iron stove.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The hot water for your bath, or should I say bath, had to be heated by building a fire outdoors in this gadget that looked like a barbecue. Except instead of where you'd cook meat, there was a 55 gallon petroleum drum which they filled with water. And you could scald yourself to death on the first day. And on the end of the second day, it was lukewarm. So every two days the houseboy would build a fire.

[Assistant] Did you have electricity just at night?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Malawians. And then also the three Americans who showed up. And that was the staff. It was an international staff, you might say. And they had built for their staff, really it was missionary housing, but lovely brick bungalows. You had running water, you had a wood stove for cooking. A little kitchen, it was very smoky, but cooking was done in the wood stove area or on the wood stove, like a cast iron stove.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The hot water for your bath, or should I say bath, had to be heated by building a fire outdoors in this gadget that looked like a barbecue. Except instead of where you'd cook meat, there was a 55 gallon petroleum drum which they filled with water. And you could scald yourself to death on the first day. And on the end of the second day, it was lukewarm. So every two days the houseboy would build a fire.

[Assistant] Did you have electricity just at night?

[User] The electricity was either from a generator or from a hydroelectric dam that the missionary had built.

[Assistant] 24 hours then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the rainy season.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay.

[User] I don't think they usually gave us 24 hour electricity. And an anecdote I like to tell is this couple who were there who had been married ten years and were childless. And I guess said, well, I guess we're not going to have a family, so we might as well do something interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] She became pregnant pretty soon. Now you have to picture that at 10 of 10:00, the lights would flash a couple of times to warn you. And then a minute later, the lights would dim down to nothing. So this couple, I guess, had some time to relax. And pretty soon she became pregnant with twins and they were not happy there. They didn't particularly like the missionaries and they went home after one year.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, let's go back to, to you and your. So you're given the house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think they usually gave us 24 hour electricity. And an anecdote I like to tell is this couple who were there who had been married ten years and were childless. And I guess said, well, I guess we're not going to have a family, so we might as well do something interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] She became pregnant pretty soon. Now you have to picture that at 10 of 10:00, the lights would flash a couple of times to warn you. And then a minute later, the lights would dim down to nothing. So this couple, I guess, had some time to relax. And pretty soon she became pregnant with twins and they were not happy there. They didn't particularly like the missionaries and they went home after one year.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, let's go back to, to you and your. So you're given the house.

[User] Well, I shared the house actually at the beginning. There was kind of a rolling personnel changes there between the missionaries and the Africans. So at some times I lived with an African teacher and at some times I lived as a guest in the home of a missionary family and sometimes there was the three Peace Corps guys. And the second year we were together.

[Assistant] Okay. Were there any British teachers on staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had a British volunteer named Jonathan Fox.

[Assistant] A VSO?

[User] VSO.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Volunteer service overseas.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Sort of the equivalent of Peace Corps. But they would make fun of Peace Corps because they just came. They didn't have to be trained or anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] VSO.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Volunteer service overseas.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Sort of the equivalent of Peace Corps. But they would make fun of Peace Corps because they just came. They didn't have to be trained or anything.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Do you recall that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Volunteer service overseas.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Sort of the equivalent of Peace Corps. But they would make fun of Peace Corps because they just came. They didn't have to be trained or anything.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Do you recall that?

[User] British snobbery, but Jonathan Fox was a terrific character. I wish I knew where he was today.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. So you walk into a very well established system.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Do you recall that?

[User] British snobbery, but Jonathan Fox was a terrific character. I wish I knew where he was today.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. So you walk into a very well established system.

[User] It was well run.

[Assistant] And what was, and what was the headmaster's expectation of the role that you would play?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] British snobbery, but Jonathan Fox was a terrific character. I wish I knew where he was today.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. So you walk into a very well established system.

[User] It was well run.

[Assistant] And what was, and what was the headmaster's expectation of the role that you would play?

[User] Well, they said to me, you're the junior and senior English master. And I was a little caught off guard because I was surprised that they gave me so much responsibility right from the start.

[Assistant] And your seniors would be facing the, uh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was well run.

[Assistant] And what was, and what was the headmaster's expectation of the role that you would play?

[User] Well, they said to me, you're the junior and senior English master. And I was a little caught off guard because I was surprised that they gave me so much responsibility right from the start.

[Assistant] And your seniors would be facing the, uh.

[User] The exam.

[Assistant] The West African, well, not the West African.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, Dr. Lowe actually in the '30s came over to the States and completed a PhD at Yale in 1940 in the field of race relations, which is no longer a field, but he was a very sophisticated man and a lovely man who did a good job running the school. I was, he was a real good friend to me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was great working for Dr. Lowe. And he ran a wonderful school. And I would like to also add that even though our school did not get the top students generally.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Because they went to the government schools, our work with them meant that, uh, showed up in the final exams. Generally, we had the highest pass rate for the secondary school, ordinary levels.

[Assistant] I'm wondering. There was a great sensitivity about what was going on in South Africa on the part of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was great working for Dr. Lowe. And he ran a wonderful school. And I would like to also add that even though our school did not get the top students generally.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Because they went to the government schools, our work with them meant that, uh, showed up in the final exams. Generally, we had the highest pass rate for the secondary school, ordinary levels.

[Assistant] I'm wondering. There was a great sensitivity about what was going on in South Africa on the part of.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Peace Corps officials and other Americans. And yet you're placed in a situation where a significant number of the staff and the school itself is being run by Afrikaners.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they went to the government schools, our work with them meant that, uh, showed up in the final exams. Generally, we had the highest pass rate for the secondary school, ordinary levels.

[Assistant] I'm wondering. There was a great sensitivity about what was going on in South Africa on the part of.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Peace Corps officials and other Americans. And yet you're placed in a situation where a significant number of the staff and the school itself is being run by Afrikaners.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Was that a problem? Were you ever alerted to being careful not to say anything or avoid any kind of political discussion? How did that play out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Was that a problem? Were you ever alerted to being careful not to say anything or avoid any kind of political discussion? How did that play out?

[User] Well, I was already aware of apartheid. I'd read Cry the Beloved Country. I knew that, uh, I knew what apartheid meant, at least on paper. So I was a little uncomfortable with these people. And it took me a while to realize that they were probably the cream of the crop.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I got a chance to travel to South Africa.

[Assistant] There was no restriction on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got a chance to travel to South Africa.

[Assistant] There was no restriction on that?

[User] Not at that time. Later they said you shouldn't go to South Africa. But at the beginning it was okay. And through my contacts at the mission station, I had people to visit and stay with and saw a lot of interesting things in the three week tour in South Africa. But I certainly didn't like apartheid when I saw it in South Africa.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And, um, and I'll never forget this. One of the teachers drove me down to Jo'burg [Johannesburg], and from there I hitchhiked. But when we got to Jo'burg, he pulled in his, his car needed some work. He pulled into a repair shop and on the back of a, like in Europe, there is an oval that lists the country and ML was on the back of his car. And the mechanic said, what are you doing live up there living with those monkeys? So I had a sense of the derision that these missionaries had to put up with by their career choice.

[Assistant] So one would assume that the missionaries were not racist or would not particularly supporters of apartheid.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, and I'll never forget this. One of the teachers drove me down to Jo'burg [Johannesburg], and from there I hitchhiked. But when we got to Jo'burg, he pulled in his, his car needed some work. He pulled into a repair shop and on the back of a, like in Europe, there is an oval that lists the country and ML was on the back of his car. And the mechanic said, what are you doing live up there living with those monkeys? So I had a sense of the derision that these missionaries had to put up with by their career choice.

[Assistant] So one would assume that the missionaries were not racist or would not particularly supporters of apartheid.

[User] They weren't. They were insofar, well, maybe they supported apartheid.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] As a political thing. And we used to have great discussions. Some, some were more supportive than others.

[Assistant] Yeah. I was wondering whether even sending you out initially the Peace Corps had given you any cautions or if they were even aware of.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They weren't. They were insofar, well, maybe they supported apartheid.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] As a political thing. And we used to have great discussions. Some, some were more supportive than others.

[Assistant] Yeah. I was wondering whether even sending you out initially the Peace Corps had given you any cautions or if they were even aware of.

[User] Oh, sure, we were aware of it. We were all a little tense about it because the United States had a strong position, anti-apartheid position.

[Assistant] But no official letters, policy statements from Peace Corps to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a political thing. And we used to have great discussions. Some, some were more supportive than others.

[Assistant] Yeah. I was wondering whether even sending you out initially the Peace Corps had given you any cautions or if they were even aware of.

[User] Oh, sure, we were aware of it. We were all a little tense about it because the United States had a strong position, anti-apartheid position.

[Assistant] But no official letters, policy statements from Peace Corps to you?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Or pulling you aside and saying you're going into a?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure, we were aware of it. We were all a little tense about it because the United States had a strong position, anti-apartheid position.

[Assistant] But no official letters, policy statements from Peace Corps to you?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Or pulling you aside and saying you're going into a?

[User] Oh, no, I knew I was going into that.

[Assistant] So it was not said that from by Poole and others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Or pulling you aside and saying you're going into a?

[User] Oh, no, I knew I was going into that.

[Assistant] So it was not said that from by Poole and others?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. I just, uh. How about, let's talk about your adjustment into the teaching schedule. You were a little disconcerted with the fact that you were teaching the two top classes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, I knew I was going into that.

[Assistant] So it was not said that from by Poole and others?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. I just, uh. How about, let's talk about your adjustment into the teaching schedule. You were a little disconcerted with the fact that you were teaching the two top classes.

[User] Oh, they put a lot of confidence in me right off the bat.

[Assistant] I know what they did, what about you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. I just, uh. How about, let's talk about your adjustment into the teaching schedule. You were a little disconcerted with the fact that you were teaching the two top classes.

[User] Oh, they put a lot of confidence in me right off the bat.

[Assistant] I know what they did, what about you?

[User] I adjusted to it right away. You know, I loved the classroom experience and I was very devoted to it. I cared a lot about my students.

[Assistant] Was it English literature mainly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they put a lot of confidence in me right off the bat.

[Assistant] I know what they did, what about you?

[User] I adjusted to it right away. You know, I loved the classroom experience and I was very devoted to it. I cared a lot about my students.

[Assistant] Was it English literature mainly?

[User] Well, you had the set books.

[Assistant] Right, right. You remember the set books you were working from?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you had the set books.

[Assistant] Right, right. You remember the set books you were working from?

[User] Well, I remember My Family and Other Animals by Durrell. That was a very funny book. The boys loved it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I wish I could name the other ones, but you really had Shakespeare. We always did a Shakespeare play. Macbeth. You had to work through line by line virtually to make sure the kids understood what was going on. And you develop vocabulary, and then they would write about what was going on. And there was a lot of correction of writing and blackboard work, examples and things like that.

[Assistant] One of the classic problems that teachers in Peace Corps going into your situation have is you come in with your American English and, for the most part, your students are attuned to British English, British accent, as well as their own language has a different lilt to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I remember My Family and Other Animals by Durrell. That was a very funny book. The boys loved it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I wish I could name the other ones, but you really had Shakespeare. We always did a Shakespeare play. Macbeth. You had to work through line by line virtually to make sure the kids understood what was going on. And you develop vocabulary, and then they would write about what was going on. And there was a lot of correction of writing and blackboard work, examples and things like that.

[Assistant] One of the classic problems that teachers in Peace Corps going into your situation have is you come in with your American English and, for the most part, your students are attuned to British English, British accent, as well as their own language has a different lilt to it.

[User] Definitely.

[Assistant] Do you recall your adjustment to that? I mean, how you finally figured out that they didn't understand you at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Definitely.

[Assistant] Do you recall your adjustment to that? I mean, how you finally figured out that they didn't understand you at all?

[User] Well, I slowed down my speech and became more articulate, and I think that has stayed with me to some extent. I do try to, to speak very clearly, and I'm aware of vowel differences. It used to annoy me with the kids in my project who weren't able to make the shift to the longer vowels. So someone would say Kongwe, that's K-O-N-G-W-E. But it was Kongwe, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And Banda. President Banda instead of President Banda, things like that. But I had an ear for that. And I did get a lot out of the linguistics training from Syracuse.

[Assistant] So there weren't major misunderstandings.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Banda. President Banda instead of President Banda, things like that. But I had an ear for that. And I did get a lot out of the linguistics training from Syracuse.

[Assistant] So there weren't major misunderstandings.

[User] Well, I had a lot to learn.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, I had to make these adjustments, but it was very clear that I had to adjust to British rather than trying to get the boys to talk like me. But they did love to imitate us and say things like gonna, wanna, shoulda, you know. And I'd hear these things and they didn't quite sound right, you know. And I'd sort of cringe and think, oh my goodness, look what I've done to their fine basic English instruction.

[Assistant] Describe your classroom setting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were no drop ceilings.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Each class had eight hanging light bulbs. And at night, the boys would come back and study from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. in artificial lighting.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then they'd leave for bedtime.

[Assistant] How many students in the class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Each class had eight hanging light bulbs. And at night, the boys would come back and study from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. in artificial lighting.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then they'd leave for bedtime.

[Assistant] How many students in the class?

[User] Thirty. 30 seats. And every seat was full. Very, very little absenteeism. Everybody there was there to learn. They were respectful. They were earnest.

[Assistant] And they were living on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then they'd leave for bedtime.

[Assistant] How many students in the class?

[User] Thirty. 30 seats. And every seat was full. Very, very little absenteeism. Everybody there was there to learn. They were respectful. They were earnest.

[Assistant] And they were living on.

[User] Living. And they had dining hall and dormitories. One dorm was two stories. Now, that's very unusual in up country Malawi to have a two story building. And that building was named Mulanje, which is the name of the high peak in, in Malawi. So it was a great novelty to have this two story dormitory and a point of pride if you lived in Mulanje.

[Assistant] Yeah. How did you address the students, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thirty. 30 seats. And every seat was full. Very, very little absenteeism. Everybody there was there to learn. They were respectful. They were earnest.

[Assistant] And they were living on.

[User] Living. And they had dining hall and dormitories. One dorm was two stories. Now, that's very unusual in up country Malawi to have a two story building. And that building was named Mulanje, which is the name of the high peak in, in Malawi. So it was a great novelty to have this two story dormitory and a point of pride if you lived in Mulanje.

[Assistant] Yeah. How did you address the students, do you recall?

[User] We were pretty informal. The British tradition was your teacher is aloof and sir and all that. When we entered the classroom, they all stood up. Well, right away we said, hey, fellas, you know, relax. It's okay. But that was a mistake. I see that as a mistake. We should have fitted in a little more closely to the established tradition because it confused them. They didn't know when to stand and when not to stand.

[Assistant] During your first six months, did you have any discipline problems?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Living. And they had dining hall and dormitories. One dorm was two stories. Now, that's very unusual in up country Malawi to have a two story building. And that building was named Mulanje, which is the name of the high peak in, in Malawi. So it was a great novelty to have this two story dormitory and a point of pride if you lived in Mulanje.

[Assistant] Yeah. How did you address the students, do you recall?

[User] We were pretty informal. The British tradition was your teacher is aloof and sir and all that. When we entered the classroom, they all stood up. Well, right away we said, hey, fellas, you know, relax. It's okay. But that was a mistake. I see that as a mistake. We should have fitted in a little more closely to the established tradition because it confused them. They didn't know when to stand and when not to stand.

[Assistant] During your first six months, did you have any discipline problems?

[User] I had no discipline problems.

[Assistant] And were you able to sort of work with the married couple to process your experience? You know, your, to work through your adjustment to teaching there. Was there anyone you could turn to to talk it over to just to get some sense of whether you were doing it well or poorly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were pretty informal. The British tradition was your teacher is aloof and sir and all that. When we entered the classroom, they all stood up. Well, right away we said, hey, fellas, you know, relax. It's okay. But that was a mistake. I see that as a mistake. We should have fitted in a little more closely to the established tradition because it confused them. They didn't know when to stand and when not to stand.

[Assistant] During your first six months, did you have any discipline problems?

[User] I had no discipline problems.

[Assistant] And were you able to sort of work with the married couple to process your experience? You know, your, to work through your adjustment to teaching there. Was there anyone you could turn to to talk it over to just to get some sense of whether you were doing it well or poorly?

[User] Uh, the married couple and I were comfortable with each other, but I don't really feel that I ever became good friends of theirs. They were not happy, as I said. They made some mistakes at the beginning with their houseboy. They had their houseboy sit and eat with them and he fell apart. He became no good for doing his work in about ten days or two weeks. And I had better luck with my houseboy.

[Assistant] Well, how did you know what was the roles between houseboy and, uh, teacher, you know, master?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn't know what we were doing when we did try to break it down.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And it usually didn't work out well. Now, on the other hand, I think the schoolboys appreciated the opportunity to get to know us Americans as people and see us more as people rather than somebody on a pedestal. So you have to differentiate, and this is where it gets thick.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You have white privilege. You have teacher privilege. You have the employer privilege, uh, the foreigner, the guest privilege. All these things can be jumbled up together and you have to be there quite a while to begin to sort out the social implications of your role and their roles.

[Assistant] Had anyone in training or had Peace Corps staff kind of, had there been any group sessions talking about roles?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it usually didn't work out well. Now, on the other hand, I think the schoolboys appreciated the opportunity to get to know us Americans as people and see us more as people rather than somebody on a pedestal. So you have to differentiate, and this is where it gets thick.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You have white privilege. You have teacher privilege. You have the employer privilege, uh, the foreigner, the guest privilege. All these things can be jumbled up together and you have to be there quite a while to begin to sort out the social implications of your role and their roles.

[Assistant] Had anyone in training or had Peace Corps staff kind of, had there been any group sessions talking about roles?

[User] Yeah, some discussion of it.

[Assistant] So you were at least aware of the possibility that, you know, it wasn't exactly as it might be back in the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You have white privilege. You have teacher privilege. You have the employer privilege, uh, the foreigner, the guest privilege. All these things can be jumbled up together and you have to be there quite a while to begin to sort out the social implications of your role and their roles.

[Assistant] Had anyone in training or had Peace Corps staff kind of, had there been any group sessions talking about roles?

[User] Yeah, some discussion of it.

[Assistant] So you were at least aware of the possibility that, you know, it wasn't exactly as it might be back in the United States?

[User] Oh, certainly. Yeah, certainly aware of that. But theory is one thing. Practice is something else. Now, you asked me, where did we process these things? Mostly we processed them back when we'd get down to the rest house in Blantyre and talked to other volunteers. Or go visit our colleagues at other schools.

[Assistant] So you had, you know, the circle of friends you had gotten through training that you could meet in Blantyre and more readily talk over your teaching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, certainly. Yeah, certainly aware of that. But theory is one thing. Practice is something else. Now, you asked me, where did we process these things? Mostly we processed them back when we'd get down to the rest house in Blantyre and talked to other volunteers. Or go visit our colleagues at other schools.

[Assistant] So you had, you know, the circle of friends you had gotten through training that you could meet in Blantyre and more readily talk over your teaching.

[User] Well, anybody. Once you came back into Blantyre from being upcountry, you were ready to be an American and chat and discuss things. And that was a great decompression. You probably experienced the same kind of thing because there's a tension in being immersed in another culture and it's hard on the nerves. And, you know, you go through the three month, six month cycle. And after six months, you're very likely to be depressed. And but then you sort of build back up out of that. And by the second year, you're really in tune, I thought.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And comfortable.

[Assistant] Let's stay within the first six months. Do you recall what you were writing home to your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, anybody. Once you came back into Blantyre from being upcountry, you were ready to be an American and chat and discuss things. And that was a great decompression. You probably experienced the same kind of thing because there's a tension in being immersed in another culture and it's hard on the nerves. And, you know, you go through the three month, six month cycle. And after six months, you're very likely to be depressed. And but then you sort of build back up out of that. And by the second year, you're really in tune, I thought.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And comfortable.

[Assistant] Let's stay within the first six months. Do you recall what you were writing home to your family?

[User] You know, I have never really examined those letters.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. But you have them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And comfortable.

[Assistant] Let's stay within the first six months. Do you recall what you were writing home to your family?

[User] You know, I have never really examined those letters.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. But you have them?

[User] It's a lot of detail. I have them, yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall your own sense that after 5 or 6 months that you'd, you were, you made it, you were a Peace Corps volunteer. You were in Africa. You were teaching. You were teaching, as far as you could tell, reasonably well. Was there any sense of that evolving or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a lot of detail. I have them, yes.

[Assistant] Do you recall your own sense that after 5 or 6 months that you'd, you were, you made it, you were a Peace Corps volunteer. You were in Africa. You were teaching. You were teaching, as far as you could tell, reasonably well. Was there any sense of that evolving or?

[User] Um. Yes, I think I, those things I, not exactly what you said, not that I was all that conscious of it. But one consciousness you didn't mention was pretty soon I didn't think of myself so much as a volunteer as a teacher at Kongwe School. Peace Corps in due course became an agency, you know, a couple of hundred miles away who you really didn't see very much. You didn't really need very much.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was much more a part of Kongwe and Dowa boma district and this American visitor who was teaching. And that was much more real to me than the external structure.

[Assistant] And you, and the world you were in at the school was relatively comfortable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Yes, I think I, those things I, not exactly what you said, not that I was all that conscious of it. But one consciousness you didn't mention was pretty soon I didn't think of myself so much as a volunteer as a teacher at Kongwe School. Peace Corps in due course became an agency, you know, a couple of hundred miles away who you really didn't see very much. You didn't really need very much.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was much more a part of Kongwe and Dowa boma district and this American visitor who was teaching. And that was much more real to me than the external structure.

[Assistant] And you, and the world you were in at the school was relatively comfortable.

[User] Very comfortable.

[Assistant] And you had, you were friends with the headmaster and others.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was much more a part of Kongwe and Dowa boma district and this American visitor who was teaching. And that was much more real to me than the external structure.

[Assistant] And you, and the world you were in at the school was relatively comfortable.

[User] Very comfortable.

[Assistant] And you had, you were friends with the headmaster and others.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] How were you being paid?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was deposited into a standard bank. We had a check book.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Once a month, we got X dollars. I think I recall $105, which by today's standard, might be 4 or 500.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] Our housing was taken care of by the school. So we had transport, food. Health was taken care of by the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Did you still would do the food shopping?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the school ran a farm and they would deliver fresh vegetables, which took a lot of work to clean up. They didn't exactly come in Birdseye frozen packages.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But that's how we got the vegetables. Fruits we would buy in the market and also beef we would buy in the market. And every perhaps three weeks on average, I would get into Lilongwe, which was about 30 miles away. It's now the capital, but then it was not the capital.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And it was a great treat to buy some Cadbury chocolate bars and some cheese and a pound of butter. I mean, bacon, sliced bacon.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you could get bread and eggs locally and stuff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was a great treat to buy some Cadbury chocolate bars and some cheese and a pound of butter. I mean, bacon, sliced bacon.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you could get bread and eggs locally and stuff?

[User] My cook baked bread.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Eggs came from local chickens.

[Assistant] Did you physically go into the market to buy the meat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My cook baked bread.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Eggs came from local chickens.

[Assistant] Did you physically go into the market to buy the meat?

[User] Sometimes.

[Assistant] And was that frowned on or was that acceptable?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eggs came from local chickens.

[Assistant] Did you physically go into the market to buy the meat?

[User] Sometimes.

[Assistant] And was that frowned on or was that acceptable?

[User] It was fine. But more often the houseboy went in.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. Let's talk about the other, the school itself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sometimes.

[Assistant] And was that frowned on or was that acceptable?

[User] It was fine. But more often the houseboy went in.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. Let's talk about the other, the school itself.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Generally at boarding schools, most of the masters have additional duties.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fine. But more often the houseboy went in.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. Let's talk about the other, the school itself.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Generally at boarding schools, most of the masters have additional duties.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Housemaster or you supervise evening studies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Generally at boarding schools, most of the masters have additional duties.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Housemaster or you supervise evening studies.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Sports or what have you. What were you assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I did night duty. One, one teacher would watch 300. I mean, can you imagine this in the United States? Three hundred schoolboys quietly studying under the supervision of one teacher for two hours, uninterrupted. Couldn't happen here.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I did the choir.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I took my choir down to the national competition, and they were very good. But we, we were disqualified because, uh, we, we. Every choir sang three songs. And one of the songs had to be in praise of President Kamuzu Banda. Well, nobody told me that. So we didn't have a song in praise of President Banda, so we couldn't have won. I didn't know this. But we were very good singers.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had you had choir training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did the choir.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I took my choir down to the national competition, and they were very good. But we, we were disqualified because, uh, we, we. Every choir sang three songs. And one of the songs had to be in praise of President Kamuzu Banda. Well, nobody told me that. So we didn't have a song in praise of President Banda, so we couldn't have won. I didn't know this. But we were very good singers.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had you had choir training?

[User] Yeah, well, church, church background.

[Assistant] But enough that you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I took my choir down to the national competition, and they were very good. But we, we were disqualified because, uh, we, we. Every choir sang three songs. And one of the songs had to be in praise of President Kamuzu Banda. Well, nobody told me that. So we didn't have a song in praise of President Banda, so we couldn't have won. I didn't know this. But we were very good singers.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had you had choir training?

[User] Yeah, well, church, church background.

[Assistant] But enough that you?

[User] I'm a baritone. I can read music.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. And who had done it at the school before you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, church, church background.

[Assistant] But enough that you?

[User] I'm a baritone. I can read music.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. And who had done it at the school before you?

[User] I don't know.

[Assistant] And the students? Was it, did they volunteer to join the choir?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm a baritone. I can read music.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. And who had done it at the school before you?

[User] I don't know.

[Assistant] And the students? Was it, did they volunteer to join the choir?

[User] Mm hmm. Football was the, “futball" was the big sport. Remember, every year we'd have a teachers versus the students game.

[Assistant] And you dared to play?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I play. Yeah. I played soccer and I went out for soccer at college. I wasn't much good, but at least I knew what direction to kick the ball and how to dribble and things like that. But that was great fun because the schoolboys were much better than we were. Oh, basketball. I introduced basketball.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] To this school. I found a few miles away there was a recruiting station for mine labor in South Africa. And these people had through the years had some trucks that when they were done with, they just discarded the parts. And I got two truck chassis, which were essentially C beams bolted together, maybe 16, 18 feet long. We cut through in order to fold down one end and attach the blackboard, the backboard to that and buried the other end in concrete. And I actually made a regulation basketball court on a dirt surface.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Built the backboard out of masonite on a frame and Peace Corps supplied me the hoops. They were regulation hoops. We started teaching basketball.

[Assistant] And the students took to it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Built the backboard out of masonite on a frame and Peace Corps supplied me the hoops. They were regulation hoops. We started teaching basketball.

[Assistant] And the students took to it?

[User] Yeah, they took to it. They didn't like to jump very high. I couldn't get them to, uh, touch the rim.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And so then I said, look, anybody who can touch the rim, I'll give you two shillings, 6 pence, and boy, several of them were immediately able to touch the rim.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, so during school term you had, you were pretty much, pretty busy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they took to it. They didn't like to jump very high. I couldn't get them to, uh, touch the rim.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And so then I said, look, anybody who can touch the rim, I'll give you two shillings, 6 pence, and boy, several of them were immediately able to touch the rim.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, so during school term you had, you were pretty much, pretty busy.

[User] Oh, we were always busy.

[Assistant] What about weekends? What did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Either go into Lilongwe.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] If we stayed in town, there was church services that I would go to. Not every week, excuse me, but, and they were all in Chinyanja.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I didn't really understand too much of what was going on, but I would go. Uh. And hiking, visiting, socializing with the other teachers.

[Assistant] On the staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If we stayed in town, there was church services that I would go to. Not every week, excuse me, but, and they were all in Chinyanja.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So I didn't really understand too much of what was going on, but I would go. Uh. And hiking, visiting, socializing with the other teachers.

[Assistant] On the staff?

[User] On the staff.

[Assistant] Both African and Afrikaner and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the staff.

[Assistant] Both African and Afrikaner and?

[User] Afrikaner. Yeah.

[Assistant] Sometimes.

[User] And reading. A lot of really nice quiet time to read.

[Assistant] Sometimes people in a, going into another cultural situation find one particular friend who sort of becomes the, a mentor or, you know, the informant about the culture and, you know, you can communicate about your mis- or your puzzlement. And he or she would be able to say, well, the tradition that's going on is. Was there anyone like that? Or do you recall trying to become familiar with the traditional culture of your students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was good at that. I used to spend a lot of time with the mechanic, the missionary mechanic, the one who built the hydroelectric dam.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And generally took care of electrical issues and car problems and things like that. Not an educated man, but a very informed man. We used to play chess late into the night.

[Assistant] Malawian or?

[User] No, he was South African, Afrikaner guy. Called him Uncle Chris, Oom Stoffel. He'd been a missionary for a long time and he and his wife were very insightful and we'd ponder issues, differences, and why things are this way.

[Assistant] Conversations all in English, I assume?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he was South African, Afrikaner guy. Called him Uncle Chris, Oom Stoffel. He'd been a missionary for a long time and he and his wife were very insightful and we'd ponder issues, differences, and why things are this way.

[Assistant] Conversations all in English, I assume?

[User] Those would be in English. Yes. All my conversations were in English. Now, I roomed for a while with a guy named Gus Mutambala, an African man who had gotten a master's in economics at the University of Colorado, Boulder.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And he was a very sophisticated man, bachelor at the time, later married. We were housemates for a while.

[Assistant] And was his village nearby?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He didn't go home very often.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But that was a nice friendship. I was living with him for 6 or 7 months.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Later on, he became active in politics. But he was, um, got on the outs with President Banda and was able to get a job at the American embassy, which protected him from any political retribution because Banda was very tough on people that he didn't think were supporting him. And there was a lot of jailing brutality. Now, now we realize there was a lot of political assassination going on all around us.

[Assistant] Well, let's stay in the political area. Um. Nyasaland became independent while you were there. At what point in your service did it come, after you were up at the school for a few months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that was a nice friendship. I was living with him for 6 or 7 months.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Later on, he became active in politics. But he was, um, got on the outs with President Banda and was able to get a job at the American embassy, which protected him from any political retribution because Banda was very tough on people that he didn't think were supporting him. And there was a lot of jailing brutality. Now, now we realize there was a lot of political assassination going on all around us.

[Assistant] Well, let's stay in the political area. Um. Nyasaland became independent while you were there. At what point in your service did it come, after you were up at the school for a few months?

[User] It came essentially three quarters of the way through. So the first year it was British or British protectorate. Then we had six months of transition, quote unquote, at which time it was sort of a partnership. The civil service were, the British civil servants were still there, but they had colleagues, partners in the Africans who were going to become the African civil servants. And then on July 6th, 1964, it was formally given over to the Africans with President Hastings Banda. And I went down to Blantyre, to the National Stadium.

[Assistant] I was going to ask, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Later on, he became active in politics. But he was, um, got on the outs with President Banda and was able to get a job at the American embassy, which protected him from any political retribution because Banda was very tough on people that he didn't think were supporting him. And there was a lot of jailing brutality. Now, now we realize there was a lot of political assassination going on all around us.

[Assistant] Well, let's stay in the political area. Um. Nyasaland became independent while you were there. At what point in your service did it come, after you were up at the school for a few months?

[User] It came essentially three quarters of the way through. So the first year it was British or British protectorate. Then we had six months of transition, quote unquote, at which time it was sort of a partnership. The civil service were, the British civil servants were still there, but they had colleagues, partners in the Africans who were going to become the African civil servants. And then on July 6th, 1964, it was formally given over to the Africans with President Hastings Banda. And I went down to Blantyre, to the National Stadium.

[Assistant] I was going to ask, yeah.

[User] In I think perhaps Zomba, I'm not sure, but it was Rangeley Stadium. They changed the name later, but it was a soccer stadium. And Prince Philip came, came in.

[Assistant] Did you need special tickets to get in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know how I got in, but I was certainly there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Prince Philip with a Rolls-Royce convertible.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And Banda in a red, I believe it was a Sunbeam convertible, which is much more of a low-end car, but a bright red Sunbeam. Drove around the track, you know, and then took their seats in the honor, place of honor. And at midnight, the Union Jack came down and the Malawi Kwacha flag went up and the fireworks were terrific, right over our heads. So it was a great thing to be there.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of the other volunteers there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Prince Philip with a Rolls-Royce convertible.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And Banda in a red, I believe it was a Sunbeam convertible, which is much more of a low-end car, but a bright red Sunbeam. Drove around the track, you know, and then took their seats in the honor, place of honor. And at midnight, the Union Jack came down and the Malawi Kwacha flag went up and the fireworks were terrific, right over our heads. So it was a great thing to be there.

[Assistant] Were there a lot of the other volunteers there?

[User] Oh, some, but mostly Africans.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps hadn't said one way or the other stay. [tape break]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, some, but mostly Africans.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps hadn't said one way or the other stay. [tape break]

[User] Office. But I can't imagine that they would have in any way inhibited us from, from being there. I mean, we, the whole stance or posture of Peace Corps office was supportive of independence.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And they didn't tell us certain things that were happening which were embarrassing to, uh, or would have been embarrassing to the new government, such as political assassinations, for example.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So there was a political assassination while we were still in training that rubbed out three of the intellectual leaders of the movement to, to take over and Africanize the country.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And these guys had brought Dr. Banda back from West Africa. Banda had been, had gotten out as a very young man.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] When it was unheard of to do so. Educated in America, became a physician, practiced medicine in England, married an English woman. And then when the African Freedom movement began, he was already in that circle of people in London who had been discussing independence with the.

[Assistant] Like Kwame Nkrumah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When it was unheard of to do so. Educated in America, became a physician, practiced medicine in England, married an English woman. And then when the African Freedom movement began, he was already in that circle of people in London who had been discussing independence with the.

[Assistant] Like Kwame Nkrumah.

[User] Nkrumah and Mr. [George] Padmore was the, like the intellectual leader of this.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So he lived in Ghana and the young Turks in Malawi that were interested in liberation brought Banda as a figurehead, to their minds, an older man, you know, that the British would respect, but they never intended him to be, to take charge. But he, he did take charge through strong arm methods.

[Assistant] So in the.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wanted to just finish that.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So three of these guys were run off the road and shot up while we were still in training.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we were told that they had died in a car accident. Well, they did die in a car accident, but it was a planned accident. I didn't know about that, the truth about that, till after I was out.

[Assistant] So then in the time you were there in the run up to final independence, that you knew, Banda and the group that was being prepared to take over the government, there were no wrinkles in that. I mean, there weren't. Was there opposition? Were you advised not to talk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So three of these guys were run off the road and shot up while we were still in training.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we were told that they had died in a car accident. Well, they did die in a car accident, but it was a planned accident. I didn't know about that, the truth about that, till after I was out.

[Assistant] So then in the time you were there in the run up to final independence, that you knew, Banda and the group that was being prepared to take over the government, there were no wrinkles in that. I mean, there weren't. Was there opposition? Were you advised not to talk?

[User] Well, we were advised not to talk politics. Don't get involved in politics.

[Assistant] But were there any regional dangers that if you were in this area that was likely to be anti-government or anti-Banda? And do you recall any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we were told that they had died in a car accident. Well, they did die in a car accident, but it was a planned accident. I didn't know about that, the truth about that, till after I was out.

[Assistant] So then in the time you were there in the run up to final independence, that you knew, Banda and the group that was being prepared to take over the government, there were no wrinkles in that. I mean, there weren't. Was there opposition? Were you advised not to talk?

[User] Well, we were advised not to talk politics. Don't get involved in politics.

[Assistant] But were there any regional dangers that if you were in this area that was likely to be anti-government or anti-Banda? And do you recall any of that?

[User] Yes, I was quite aware of that.

[Assistant] But directly impacting on you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was quite aware of that.

[Assistant] But directly impacting on you?

[User] We were told keep your nose out of politics.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So we listened, but we didn't participate. Now, if you did participate, uh, some of the volunteers went to parliament and applauded the certain people, and they were, they shouldn't have been applauding anybody. So they were either reprimanded or sent home, as I recall.

[Assistant] While you were a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we listened, but we didn't participate. Now, if you did participate, uh, some of the volunteers went to parliament and applauded the certain people, and they were, they shouldn't have been applauding anybody. So they were either reprimanded or sent home, as I recall.

[Assistant] While you were a volunteer?

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] Yeah. So we, we listened. We kept our ears open. Now, I remember one day that Orton Chirwa came and had lunch with Agus and Tambala. And since we were housemates, I was at the table. Orton Chirwa was one of the few lawyers in all, Black lawyers in all of Malawi. He was trained in London, um, or in Britain and he was part of that in- group. But in due course he became unhappy with Banda's ways and was put in prison and died in prison. But I remember chatting with Orton Chirwa, who was, had to be in the top 5 or 6 people of the inner circle at one time. So we'd listen.

[Assistant] Yeah. Let's go back to school. The, uh. After two terms, did you have a long break?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] Yeah. So we, we listened. We kept our ears open. Now, I remember one day that Orton Chirwa came and had lunch with Agus and Tambala. And since we were housemates, I was at the table. Orton Chirwa was one of the few lawyers in all, Black lawyers in all of Malawi. He was trained in London, um, or in Britain and he was part of that in- group. But in due course he became unhappy with Banda's ways and was put in prison and died in prison. But I remember chatting with Orton Chirwa, who was, had to be in the top 5 or 6 people of the inner circle at one time. So we'd listen.

[Assistant] Yeah. Let's go back to school. The, uh. After two terms, did you have a long break?

[User] Yeah, there were, um.

[Assistant] The long break.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So their, their summer is in December, January, February.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that's also the rainy season when everything turns green.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And their cold season is June, July, August. By then things have gotten all brown. So generally you'd have a term and then a three week break, a term, a three week break, a term and, and then the 6 or 7 week break. Yeah.

[Assistant] What did you do during the short breaks and then the long break?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And their cold season is June, July, August. By then things have gotten all brown. So generally you'd have a term and then a three week break, a term, a three week break, a term and, and then the 6 or 7 week break. Yeah.

[Assistant] What did you do during the short breaks and then the long break?

[User] Uh, we either made, stayed around and did something, a project. You had to report down to headquarters this what I'm going to do. You had a certain amount of eligible times for, to be off.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I usually traveled. I traveled to Zimbabwe, Zambia, and South Africa during, during my off times. Or I traveled around Malawi and went to see volunteers at other school situations. In the long break, as I explained, I went to South Africa.

[Assistant] Were there any restrictions on your travel? Like you couldn't go to Europe, you couldn't return to the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I usually traveled. I traveled to Zimbabwe, Zambia, and South Africa during, during my off times. Or I traveled around Malawi and went to see volunteers at other school situations. In the long break, as I explained, I went to South Africa.

[Assistant] Were there any restrictions on your travel? Like you couldn't go to Europe, you couldn't return to the U.S.?

[User] We were told not to, not to return to the U.S. And not to, no, travel in Africa was approved.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Period.

[Assistant] During your whole first year, did you have any visitors from the Peace Corps out at your site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were told not to, not to return to the U.S. And not to, no, travel in Africa was approved.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Period.

[Assistant] During your whole first year, did you have any visitors from the Peace Corps out at your site?

[User] Well, there were two inspectors. I think they were State Department people. For all I know, they might have been CIA.

[Assistant] We like to think not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were two inspectors. I think they were State Department people. For all I know, they might have been CIA.

[Assistant] We like to think not.

[User] And these guys showed up one day unannounced and, um, they told me, they showed me their IDs, told me they were, you know, inspecting the program. On that particular day, I was ill, as we learned to say in British English. And I was not teaching. I was in my bathrobe at home.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And these guys showed up and they sat around and chatted for half an hour or something like that. But I was embarrassed that it appeared to be I was bluffing, you know, and not on the job, but apparently it didn't really bother them. And actually, from my point of view, it seemed to me they were lucky because they got this, you know, government tourist trip with plenty of leisure time driving from place to place.

[Assistant] Do you recall if they spoke to your headmaster?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And these guys showed up and they sat around and chatted for half an hour or something like that. But I was embarrassed that it appeared to be I was bluffing, you know, and not on the job, but apparently it didn't really bother them. And actually, from my point of view, it seemed to me they were lucky because they got this, you know, government tourist trip with plenty of leisure time driving from place to place.

[Assistant] Do you recall if they spoke to your headmaster?

[User] I'm sure they did, but I don't.

[Assistant] Other than?

[User] I don't know. I didn't worry about it.

[Assistant] And you don't recall names at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure they did, but I don't.

[Assistant] Other than?

[User] I don't know. I didn't worry about it.

[Assistant] And you don't recall names at all?

[User] No, I don't.

[Assistant] Okay. They could have been Peace Corps evaluators.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I didn't worry about it.

[Assistant] And you don't recall names at all?

[User] No, I don't.

[Assistant] Okay. They could have been Peace Corps evaluators.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, well, I'm sure it was some sort of evaluation. They said they were evaluating the program.

[Assistant] Any, any official Peace Corps staff come up and visit you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A phone call. There was only one phone on the, on the entire mission station. It rang in the headmaster's office. And also it was attached to his front wall of his, on his house, on the wall, as we say, on the porch.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was a, uh, wind up phone. You had to crank it to, to get into the operator in Dowa and so on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You didn't really worry about phone calls too much.

[Assistant] Did Poole come out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was a, uh, wind up phone. You had to crank it to, to get into the operator in Dowa and so on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You didn't really worry about phone calls too much.

[Assistant] Did Poole come out?

[User] Yeah, I think Pool came out. I don't specifically remember that, but I do remember being visited.

[Assistant] But you said that really through the first year, you developed a sense that Peace Corps was almost incidental, that you, you were there and you were doing a job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You didn't really worry about phone calls too much.

[Assistant] Did Poole come out?

[User] Yeah, I think Pool came out. I don't specifically remember that, but I do remember being visited.

[Assistant] But you said that really through the first year, you developed a sense that Peace Corps was almost incidental, that you, you were there and you were doing a job.

[User] For all practical purposes. I'm very consciously became aware that it was not really day to day so much that I was a Peace Corps volunteer as that I was a teacher at Kongwe School.

[Assistant] Now, initially that grew up certainly through the period at that time with almost every Peace Corps project, particularly with education, was that the policy was it's not enough to just teach. You need to become involved somehow in other projects or involved somehow otherwise with the culture. And I had evaluators come and say, the first question was, well, how many Ghanaians do you know? And what they were implying was that it wasn't enough to work on the school compound I should possibly be doing. Do you recall that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For all practical purposes. I'm very consciously became aware that it was not really day to day so much that I was a Peace Corps volunteer as that I was a teacher at Kongwe School.

[Assistant] Now, initially that grew up certainly through the period at that time with almost every Peace Corps project, particularly with education, was that the policy was it's not enough to just teach. You need to become involved somehow in other projects or involved somehow otherwise with the culture. And I had evaluators come and say, the first question was, well, how many Ghanaians do you know? And what they were implying was that it wasn't enough to work on the school compound I should possibly be doing. Do you recall that at all?

[User] Um, I had a certain amount of guilt about that because I was not getting out in the villages as much as I thought I would be.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um. So in that sense, I didn't feel like I was a terrific Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] So you had a sense that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And be more conversational and so on. And that that was where I should be and not worry about getting out in the village. And even as it was, I was often behind in returning my papers, you know, the corrections and things like that. So I didn't really think I had a lot of time to get out in the village. Now, on the other side of the coin, the missionaries sometimes would go out to see outlying churches, and that might involve a long hike on a Sunday, being there for a church service. We had a wonderful adventure driving up country and around to get to the certain place, which was really only about ten miles away. We had to drive this big C-shaped journey on dirt roads. But on another occasion we walked that, over hill and dale.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And I really got in to see what the backcountry was like when we got off the roads and away from the colonial influence, you really saw Africa as it had always been. Another thing I did was to walk over to an American missionary's house. He was a family man. He had three boys. Named Irwin. They were Assemblies of God. And their mission house was about four miles away. And I often would walk as the crow flies on these little footpaths that I discovered are all through the grasslands of, of Africa, which you don't see when you drive by.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But I'd cut across country up and down and go see the Irwins and they'd, they'd feed me hamburgers.

[Assistant] Worth the walk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I really got in to see what the backcountry was like when we got off the roads and away from the colonial influence, you really saw Africa as it had always been. Another thing I did was to walk over to an American missionary's house. He was a family man. He had three boys. Named Irwin. They were Assemblies of God. And their mission house was about four miles away. And I often would walk as the crow flies on these little footpaths that I discovered are all through the grasslands of, of Africa, which you don't see when you drive by.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But I'd cut across country up and down and go see the Irwins and they'd, they'd feed me hamburgers.

[Assistant] Worth the walk.

[User] Worth the walk.

[Assistant] And as you're coming to the end of the second year, did you have any idea that possibly you might want to extend your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Worth the walk.

[Assistant] And as you're coming to the end of the second year, did you have any idea that possibly you might want to extend your service?

[User] No. I was in love with a college sweetheart and we'd been writing the whole time. I think her letters helped me a lot to keep, you know, emotionally stable and gave me a future to look forward to. So I was eager to get back and see her. I left service a little bit before they wrapped, before the project wound up, what they now call close of service, COS. Every Peace Corps volunteer knows COS. But the term COS was unknown to me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] When I had my checkout interview a little bit before Thanksgiving time. Now, of course, they don't have Thanksgiving over there, but the Americans were aware of Thanksgiving and they gave me my ticket in, that is the right to buy passage home. And I arranged with the travel agency there to fly to Lusaka, then to Nairobi, then to Entebbe, then to Khartoum in the Sudan. Oh, sorry. I left out Addis Ababa. Then Khartoum, then Cairo. So I stayed in each of those cities at least one night, sometimes four nights.

[Assistant] You could do it in those days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I was in love with a college sweetheart and we'd been writing the whole time. I think her letters helped me a lot to keep, you know, emotionally stable and gave me a future to look forward to. So I was eager to get back and see her. I left service a little bit before they wrapped, before the project wound up, what they now call close of service, COS. Every Peace Corps volunteer knows COS. But the term COS was unknown to me.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] When I had my checkout interview a little bit before Thanksgiving time. Now, of course, they don't have Thanksgiving over there, but the Americans were aware of Thanksgiving and they gave me my ticket in, that is the right to buy passage home. And I arranged with the travel agency there to fly to Lusaka, then to Nairobi, then to Entebbe, then to Khartoum in the Sudan. Oh, sorry. I left out Addis Ababa. Then Khartoum, then Cairo. So I stayed in each of those cities at least one night, sometimes four nights.

[Assistant] You could do it in those days.

[User] You could do it in those days. And that was a great experience. Spent almost no time in Europe. I think three, a night in Paris and three nights in London, and then got on home for Christmas.

[Assistant] And was Poole up in Kenya by the time you finished?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I had my checkout interview a little bit before Thanksgiving time. Now, of course, they don't have Thanksgiving over there, but the Americans were aware of Thanksgiving and they gave me my ticket in, that is the right to buy passage home. And I arranged with the travel agency there to fly to Lusaka, then to Nairobi, then to Entebbe, then to Khartoum in the Sudan. Oh, sorry. I left out Addis Ababa. Then Khartoum, then Cairo. So I stayed in each of those cities at least one night, sometimes four nights.

[Assistant] You could do it in those days.

[User] You could do it in those days. And that was a great experience. Spent almost no time in Europe. I think three, a night in Paris and three nights in London, and then got on home for Christmas.

[Assistant] And was Poole up in Kenya by the time you finished?

[User] No. But Poole died in an auto accident in Kenya. He was the country director.

[Assistant] Right. So at the end of the two years, you know, how did you, how at the time do you recall what, how you evaluated your experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You could do it in those days. And that was a great experience. Spent almost no time in Europe. I think three, a night in Paris and three nights in London, and then got on home for Christmas.

[Assistant] And was Poole up in Kenya by the time you finished?

[User] No. But Poole died in an auto accident in Kenya. He was the country director.

[Assistant] Right. So at the end of the two years, you know, how did you, how at the time do you recall what, how you evaluated your experience?

[User] Oh, my. It was a great experience and it deeply changed me in many ways. When I got back to the States, I was much less materialistic. And I walked places. I would say to Margaret, when we were living on the edge of Cleveland, we didn't have a car. Newlyweds without a car, but on the bus line. And I would say we were, if we were say going shopping downtown, I'd say, Margaret, shall we take the bus or walk? Now, she thought I was nuts, but to me, to walk three or 4 or 5 miles would not, you know, would not be an unusual thought. And a lot of those things I really had to gradually change when I came home because you realized how out of step you were.

[Assistant] Did you go right into graduate studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, no. I came home and she was in graduate school and I by then had been accepted at Princeton Theological Seminary.

[Assistant] Ah, okay.

[User] And we got married in September. And the plan was for me to start seminary, but we weren't able to find a job for her that first year. So instead, we stayed in Cleveland, where I went to library school, and I got my library degree a year later. By then she had a job and we came to Princeton, and in due course I became a librarian rather than a clergyman. And I think, you know, the Peace Corps kind of helped me pull away from the evangelical conservativism.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] That I'd had at Wheaton. And I really wanted to be let out of that box. I, I realize that now. So all that worked out.

[Assistant] Were you able to maintain any kind of continuing contact or contact through the years with people in Malawi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the most interesting contact is just a few miles from here in South Orange is a couple where they're both from Malawi. He came over here for college education in the early days and his wife came later to study nutrition and they met and married, had four children. Their children went to high school with my children.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And I'm good friends of theirs. Often I'm over there to have, a couple of times a year and they're always teasing me, you don't come enough.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] For nsima and ndiwal. But you can go over there and have good African cooking anytime.

[Assistant] And you've been involved in returned volunteer affairs, I gather, through the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the 15th, I believe that was, 15 years after founding.

[Assistant] Could be.

[User] And I was at the 25th.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I was at the 40th, which was actually the 41st. I just was in Chicago in August. I've been a member for many years of what's now called the National Peace Corps Association. I've been a member of the New Jersey Returned Peace Corps Volunteers. I've been a president of that for the last 3 or 4 years.

[Assistant] And the Friends of Malawi as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was at the 25th.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I was at the 40th, which was actually the 41st. I just was in Chicago in August. I've been a member for many years of what's now called the National Peace Corps Association. I've been a member of the New Jersey Returned Peace Corps Volunteers. I've been a president of that for the last 3 or 4 years.

[Assistant] And the Friends of Malawi as well.

[User] Oh, yes, Friends of Malawi.

[Assistant] And your group still, there's still some communication among the group and you have reunions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was set up by Phil Durand, since deceased. That was not just Malawi I, but it was like 5 or 6 of the first Malawi groups.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And but a lot of Malawi I went to that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it looks like we're going to get together this summer, Malawi I. Maybe only 6 or 7 people.

[Assistant] Now that you're retired, you know, look back over a busy life and what have you. What do you think was the impact of Peace Corps service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's more than half white. So I'm not talking about the traditional Negro college type thing, but where you have a basically a white campus with other diversity.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's up there in the 40 percent. So I see kids from all over the world. They may be doing foreign study, graduate study. They may be immigrants' children.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I feel that my Peace Corps experience has enabled me to be very effective with that type of library clientele.

[Assistant] So it sort of stuck with you, I mean, it was back in the '60s and it just becomes part of your, your life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do a lot of reading. I like to read about the British Empire.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I like to read about third world countries, particularly Peace Corps experiences, and there's been some wonderful Peace Corps writers.

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah.

[User] And maybe if you can't go, reading some of those experiential books is about as close as you can get.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anything else for the archives, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I like to read about third world countries, particularly Peace Corps experiences, and there's been some wonderful Peace Corps writers.

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah.

[User] And maybe if you can't go, reading some of those experiential books is about as close as you can get.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anything else for the archives, I mean?

[User] For the archives.

[Assistant] We can, we can. We can stop.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really?

[Assistant] Yes. If you want to do another interview another day to go more in-depth into things, we can do that, too.

[User] Well, I don't mind coming back over here another day. I'll get some notes together and talk about some of the things that I think would be interesting.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] You know, you have a tendency when you're doing something like this, to talk about the people and whatever went on. That's interesting, but I think a lot of things that have to do with the hardware and how it all fit together. Let me think about it. Maybe I'll run over next week.

[Assistant] Okay. That would be wonderful. That would be wonderful. We can do that. We can talk more in-depth and we can talk about specifics, if you want to go into about Mercury and then maybe about Gemini. Or however you would like to do it. Whatever you're comfortable doing. We would love to hear about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I grew up in Concord, Massachusetts, was the third child of a family of seven. Lived with my grandparents and parents. So there was 11 of us in the house. I went to Northeastern University, majored in physics and mathematics and was September of 1963 entering my senior year. Recognizing that I had to do something about the military when I graduated, I had taken the naval officers candidate school and qualified for NCS. While walking out of school one day I came across a recruiter, a Peace Corps recruiter, who was signing up people to take a language exam for the Peace Corps, and I decided that I'd rather do that, then join the Navy if I was given the choice. So I took the language exam and didn't hear anything until June of 1964 when they gave me a week to make up my mind of what I wanted to do. I wanted to go to Latin America and I accepted the offer to go to training in Columbia, Missouri. Long pause.

[Assistant] What was your training like?

[User] It was very comprehensive. It was their first training group. But we had four hours of language a day. And various other topics, Latin American culture, Ecuadorian culture. Sort of the norms of the land.

[Assistant] And after Missouri, what was your next step?

[User] Came home for two weeks, got packed up, went to Puerto Rico for a month, to Arecibo to the Outward Bound camp. And then we went from there directly to Ecuador.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your friends and family when they found out that you were joining Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very comprehensive. It was their first training group. But we had four hours of language a day. And various other topics, Latin American culture, Ecuadorian culture. Sort of the norms of the land.

[Assistant] And after Missouri, what was your next step?

[User] Came home for two weeks, got packed up, went to Puerto Rico for a month, to Arecibo to the Outward Bound camp. And then we went from there directly to Ecuador.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your friends and family when they found out that you were joining Peace Corps?

[User] It was kind of a mixed bag. Some people were excited for me. Other people were kind of disappointed. I think my dad thought that after I'd finally finished a degree in physics, it took six years to do a five-year program, that I ought to go to work in the field of physics. I just had no interest. As I told somebody, I got him his degree, but I was going to do something for myself.

[Assistant] Did they tell you what type of work you would be doing down there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Came home for two weeks, got packed up, went to Puerto Rico for a month, to Arecibo to the Outward Bound camp. And then we went from there directly to Ecuador.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your friends and family when they found out that you were joining Peace Corps?

[User] It was kind of a mixed bag. Some people were excited for me. Other people were kind of disappointed. I think my dad thought that after I'd finally finished a degree in physics, it took six years to do a five-year program, that I ought to go to work in the field of physics. I just had no interest. As I told somebody, I got him his degree, but I was going to do something for myself.

[Assistant] Did they tell you what type of work you would be doing down there?

[User] They didn't know what type of work that we were going to be doing, but they told us about the locations. Our group was destined for remote locations. No city, no city boys here.

[Assistant] What was the makeup of the volunteers? Were they from all different places, different ages, different abilities or backgrounds?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was kind of a mixed bag. Some people were excited for me. Other people were kind of disappointed. I think my dad thought that after I'd finally finished a degree in physics, it took six years to do a five-year program, that I ought to go to work in the field of physics. I just had no interest. As I told somebody, I got him his degree, but I was going to do something for myself.

[Assistant] Did they tell you what type of work you would be doing down there?

[User] They didn't know what type of work that we were going to be doing, but they told us about the locations. Our group was destined for remote locations. No city, no city boys here.

[Assistant] What was the makeup of the volunteers? Were they from all different places, different ages, different abilities or backgrounds?

[User] Primarily, they were young college graduates. There were very few women involved, probably a half a dozen or a dozen women in the training group of 100.

[Assistant] What was the selection process like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn't know what type of work that we were going to be doing, but they told us about the locations. Our group was destined for remote locations. No city, no city boys here.

[Assistant] What was the makeup of the volunteers? Were they from all different places, different ages, different abilities or backgrounds?

[User] Primarily, they were young college graduates. There were very few women involved, probably a half a dozen or a dozen women in the training group of 100.

[Assistant] What was the selection process like?

[User] It's brutal. Every, when we're in Missouri, every, I want to say it happened two or three times during the course of the training program, they'd have what they called deselection. And they had various methods for deselecting, one of which was peer review. They'd ask you how many, which of your fellow volunteers you'd like to serve with, least like to serve with. And a lot of people found that objectionable, but that's the way it transpired. And then everybody got a letter. Wouldn't it say, pack your bags and go home, and the other one would say you're moving on in the process of training? But there were some good people deselected. Some had problems with the language. But for whatever reason, you never knew what caused them to be deselected.

[Assistant] So out of the group of about 100, about how many were actually went to Ecuador?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's brutal. Every, when we're in Missouri, every, I want to say it happened two or three times during the course of the training program, they'd have what they called deselection. And they had various methods for deselecting, one of which was peer review. They'd ask you how many, which of your fellow volunteers you'd like to serve with, least like to serve with. And a lot of people found that objectionable, but that's the way it transpired. And then everybody got a letter. Wouldn't it say, pack your bags and go home, and the other one would say you're moving on in the process of training? But there were some good people deselected. Some had problems with the language. But for whatever reason, you never knew what caused them to be deselected.

[Assistant] So out of the group of about 100, about how many were actually went to Ecuador?

[User] I want to say they deselected 20 people by the time the process was over, so about 80 of us went forward and the rest of them were considered for other assignments. Ecuador was considered a hardship post.

[Assistant] Hardship?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did they tell you why?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I want to say they deselected 20 people by the time the process was over, so about 80 of us went forward and the rest of them were considered for other assignments. Ecuador was considered a hardship post.

[Assistant] Hardship?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did they tell you why?

[User] I didn't find it a hardship post personally, but the State Department had their reasons.

[Assistant] OK, so you landed in which city in Ecuador? And then what happened immediately after you arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did they tell you why?

[User] I didn't find it a hardship post personally, but the State Department had their reasons.

[Assistant] OK, so you landed in which city in Ecuador? And then what happened immediately after you arrived?

[User] We arrived in Quito at about midnight on a flight from Miami through Panama. And the next morning, they got us up and we had an in-house doctrination and there were various groups there involved, the ambassador and Peace Corps executives. Then they put us on a bus and we went to Cuenca. So it took a day long bus trip, which was interesting. That is our first introduction to Ecuador and Ecuadorian culture. The funny thing was is that the bus stopped about 100 miles outside of Quito. And everybody get off the bus and took a pee except for the gringos, and they all sat on it for a while, and then the next trip, they were the first ones off the bus to take a pee. But it was, I guess, our first introduction to the culture.

[Assistant] So you are headed towards Cuenca. How many volunteers were on? Because I'm sure they divided up the group to different places in the country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't find it a hardship post personally, but the State Department had their reasons.

[Assistant] OK, so you landed in which city in Ecuador? And then what happened immediately after you arrived?

[User] We arrived in Quito at about midnight on a flight from Miami through Panama. And the next morning, they got us up and we had an in-house doctrination and there were various groups there involved, the ambassador and Peace Corps executives. Then they put us on a bus and we went to Cuenca. So it took a day long bus trip, which was interesting. That is our first introduction to Ecuador and Ecuadorian culture. The funny thing was is that the bus stopped about 100 miles outside of Quito. And everybody get off the bus and took a pee except for the gringos, and they all sat on it for a while, and then the next trip, they were the first ones off the bus to take a pee. But it was, I guess, our first introduction to the culture.

[Assistant] So you are headed towards Cuenca. How many volunteers were on? Because I'm sure they divided up the group to different places in the country.

[User] I want to say about 30 of us ended up in Cuenca.

[Assistant] OK. What were your first impressions of Cuenca?