[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you can get him to talk. In particular if you can get him to—some of his West Texas similes and metaphors and things.

[Assistant] Yes. [Laughter]

[User] I can never remember all of them now, but he used to have—when he’d get through talking, we’d say, “What did he say?” [Laughter] “He’d got that doggie roped and tied.” What did that mean? Stuff like that. Yeah, John’s a good fellow to talk to about that.\n\n Actually, Neil Hutchinson would be an interesting fellow to talk to a little bit too.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] If you haven’t talked to him.

[Assistant] We’re in the middle of talking with Mr. Hutchinson. He comes to Houston on travel frequently, and so we try and catch up when we can. We’ve talked to him, I think twice but would like to again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can never remember all of them now, but he used to have—when he’d get through talking, we’d say, “What did he say?” [Laughter] “He’d got that doggie roped and tied.” What did that mean? Stuff like that. Yeah, John’s a good fellow to talk to about that.\n\n Actually, Neil Hutchinson would be an interesting fellow to talk to a little bit too.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] If you haven’t talked to him.

[Assistant] We’re in the middle of talking with Mr. Hutchinson. He comes to Houston on travel frequently, and so we try and catch up when we can. We’ve talked to him, I think twice but would like to again.

[User] Neil could give you a good Space Station early day history. Have you talked to Clarke Covington?

[Assistant] No, not yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you haven’t talked to him.

[Assistant] We’re in the middle of talking with Mr. Hutchinson. He comes to Houston on travel frequently, and so we try and catch up when we can. We’ve talked to him, I think twice but would like to again.

[User] Neil could give you a good Space Station early day history. Have you talked to Clarke Covington?

[Assistant] No, not yet.

[User] Clarke Covington would be a good guy for you to talk to in terms of program formulation, if you will, how Space Station got started here and how things evolved the way they did. He will have all that in spades.\n\n Neil inherited the Space Station. It was already in place and pretty much all the conceptualization had been done when he was made the program manager. But he could certainly relate for you what the relationships were between Johnson and Headquarters people in those early days. Neil, he only stayed there about a year and a half, though. I believe it’s about a year and a half.

[Assistant]
Well, before we close, I’d like to ask Kevin and Sandra if they had any questions on what we covered today.

I guess I just have one sort of anecdotal question that you may or may not have any comments on. I was just thinking of something that one of the flight controllers had told us about simulations. We were talking about Bob [Robert L.] Carlton.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Neil could give you a good Space Station early day history. Have you talked to Clarke Covington?

[Assistant] No, not yet.

[User] Clarke Covington would be a good guy for you to talk to in terms of program formulation, if you will, how Space Station got started here and how things evolved the way they did. He will have all that in spades.\n\n Neil inherited the Space Station. It was already in place and pretty much all the conceptualization had been done when he was made the program manager. But he could certainly relate for you what the relationships were between Johnson and Headquarters people in those early days. Neil, he only stayed there about a year and a half, though. I believe it’s about a year and a half.

[Assistant]
Well, before we close, I’d like to ask Kevin and Sandra if they had any questions on what we covered today.

I guess I just have one sort of anecdotal question that you may or may not have any comments on. I was just thinking of something that one of the flight controllers had told us about simulations. We were talking about Bob [Robert L.] Carlton.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] And he was saying that sometimes during simulations when things got a little slow for some of the controllers, the astronauts—and he was speaking particularly of Neil Armstrong—used to like to make things more interesting for them by flipping a switch here or pulling a circuit breaker there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Clarke Covington would be a good guy for you to talk to in terms of program formulation, if you will, how Space Station got started here and how things evolved the way they did. He will have all that in spades.\n\n Neil inherited the Space Station. It was already in place and pretty much all the conceptualization had been done when he was made the program manager. But he could certainly relate for you what the relationships were between Johnson and Headquarters people in those early days. Neil, he only stayed there about a year and a half, though. I believe it’s about a year and a half.

[Assistant]
Well, before we close, I’d like to ask Kevin and Sandra if they had any questions on what we covered today.

I guess I just have one sort of anecdotal question that you may or may not have any comments on. I was just thinking of something that one of the flight controllers had told us about simulations. We were talking about Bob [Robert L.] Carlton.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] And he was saying that sometimes during simulations when things got a little slow for some of the controllers, the astronauts—and he was speaking particularly of Neil Armstrong—used to like to make things more interesting for them by flipping a switch here or pulling a circuit breaker there.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Just sort of—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] And he was saying that sometimes during simulations when things got a little slow for some of the controllers, the astronauts—and he was speaking particularly of Neil Armstrong—used to like to make things more interesting for them by flipping a switch here or pulling a circuit breaker there.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Just sort of—

[User] They’d do things like that.

[Assistant] — on the fly. I was wondering if you had any comments about that kind of thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One fellow you really need to talk to and maybe you don’t want to wait till he retires, do you know Bob [Robert D.] Legler?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Legler is the trivia king. He knows everything there is to know about the space program, I mean in terms of trivia-type stuff. But he knows which crewman did what, when, where and etc.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But he’s, I don’t know, Legler’s probably seventy years old. He’s still working over here, I think.

[Assistant] We’ve been trying to set up a session with him, and unfortunately, his work schedule hasn’t panned out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But he’s, I don’t know, Legler’s probably seventy years old. He’s still working over here, I think.

[Assistant] We’ve been trying to set up a session with him, and unfortunately, his work schedule hasn’t panned out.

[User] You really need to talk to him. You need to talk to him.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Anything else?

[Assistant] Sandra?\n\n Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven’t touched on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anything else?

[Assistant] Sandra?\n\n Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven’t touched on?

[User] Oh, nothing that’s worth mentioning. I suppose if we’d sat down and had a couple of beers, we could probably remember a lot of this stuff. You have to understand, it’s been fifteen years or so since I worked on the training stuff.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Well, it’s actually been longer than that. It’s about twenty years. Apollo 12 was the last time—well, we were training a flight control, and then we were crew training for the Shuttle up through 1982. ‘81, ‘82, somewhere along in there.

[Assistant] Well, I think you certainly remembered quite a bit, and we appreciate you sharing it with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, nothing that’s worth mentioning. I suppose if we’d sat down and had a couple of beers, we could probably remember a lot of this stuff. You have to understand, it’s been fifteen years or so since I worked on the training stuff.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] Well, it’s actually been longer than that. It’s about twenty years. Apollo 12 was the last time—well, we were training a flight control, and then we were crew training for the Shuttle up through 1982. ‘81, ‘82, somewhere along in there.

[Assistant] Well, I think you certainly remembered quite a bit, and we appreciate you sharing it with us.

[User] Well, if you have any further questions, by all means, let me know what they are and I’ll give you a reaction to them.

[Assistant] All right. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s actually been longer than that. It’s about twenty years. Apollo 12 was the last time—well, we were training a flight control, and then we were crew training for the Shuttle up through 1982. ‘81, ‘82, somewhere along in there.

[Assistant] Well, I think you certainly remembered quite a bit, and we appreciate you sharing it with us.

[User] Well, if you have any further questions, by all means, let me know what they are and I’ll give you a reaction to them.

[Assistant] All right. Thank you.

[User] If you talk to some of those guys we mentioned, I’m sure they remember more than I do.

[Assistant] Well, we find that everybody remembers things because everybody had a different focus, a slightly different focus, so we do get all different pieces from everybody, which helps put together the whole picture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you talk to some of those guys we mentioned, I’m sure they remember more than I do.

[Assistant] Well, we find that everybody remembers things because everybody had a different focus, a slightly different focus, so we do get all different pieces from everybody, which helps put together the whole picture.

[User] For old training, this guy [Gordon M.] Ferguson would be a good fellow for you to talk to. And for later day training, [Robert K.] Holkan managed the training division over there for several years.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] Would be a good guy to talk to. Frank [E.] Hughes, of course, has been involved in there too. You’ve still got a lot of a folks around you can get some good data out of.

[Assistant] So absolutely. Absolutely. We look forward to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, currently I'm an ESL teacher. I've also been the administrator at our school. I've been with the ELS Language Centers for over 30 years and in various capacities, center director, academic director, and instructional specialist. And then before that, teacher.

[Assistant] And where do you live?

[User] I live in southeast Atlanta. And I was born in Atlanta.

[Assistant] And could you think back a little bit to the year before you joined Peace Corps and talk about your life then.

[User] I was a senior in college, I graduated in August of 1968. Had applied to the Peace Corps earlier that spring and was faced with the decision because I really wanted to go into the Peace Corps. But also there was a time when the Army Reserve an opening there became possible and I didn't necessarily want to join the Army Reserve, but a lot of people are using that as their protection against going to Vietnam.

[Assistant] So did joining the Peace Corps have anything to do with Vietnam?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I live in southeast Atlanta. And I was born in Atlanta.

[Assistant] And could you think back a little bit to the year before you joined Peace Corps and talk about your life then.

[User] I was a senior in college, I graduated in August of 1968. Had applied to the Peace Corps earlier that spring and was faced with the decision because I really wanted to go into the Peace Corps. But also there was a time when the Army Reserve an opening there became possible and I didn't necessarily want to join the Army Reserve, but a lot of people are using that as their protection against going to Vietnam.

[Assistant] So did joining the Peace Corps have anything to do with Vietnam?

[User] No, no, not at all. I mean, I've always been, I consider myself to be pretty much of an idealist in many ways and try to be altruistic and thought that, you know, saving the world would be something I could do. Of course, I know that wasn't what I went to the Peace Corps for, but certainly going to help others was one of my motivations.

[Assistant] And how did you hear about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a senior in college, I graduated in August of 1968. Had applied to the Peace Corps earlier that spring and was faced with the decision because I really wanted to go into the Peace Corps. But also there was a time when the Army Reserve an opening there became possible and I didn't necessarily want to join the Army Reserve, but a lot of people are using that as their protection against going to Vietnam.

[Assistant] So did joining the Peace Corps have anything to do with Vietnam?

[User] No, no, not at all. I mean, I've always been, I consider myself to be pretty much of an idealist in many ways and try to be altruistic and thought that, you know, saving the world would be something I could do. Of course, I know that wasn't what I went to the Peace Corps for, but certainly going to help others was one of my motivations.

[Assistant] And how did you hear about Peace Corps?

[User] Well, being a child of the sixties, born in 1946, and having spent my teenage years with the Kennedy mystique, the Peace Corps became part of what was then this country's desire to move forward in the world. And I looked at that as a possibility, and it's when it started in the early sixties. By the time I graduated and considered it, I realized that it was something that was worthwhile, and I just it was in my consciousness, so I knew it was something that I'd like to do.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project in mind, something you wanted to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, not at all. I mean, I've always been, I consider myself to be pretty much of an idealist in many ways and try to be altruistic and thought that, you know, saving the world would be something I could do. Of course, I know that wasn't what I went to the Peace Corps for, but certainly going to help others was one of my motivations.

[Assistant] And how did you hear about Peace Corps?

[User] Well, being a child of the sixties, born in 1946, and having spent my teenage years with the Kennedy mystique, the Peace Corps became part of what was then this country's desire to move forward in the world. And I looked at that as a possibility, and it's when it started in the early sixties. By the time I graduated and considered it, I realized that it was something that was worthwhile, and I just it was in my consciousness, so I knew it was something that I'd like to do.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project in mind, something you wanted to do?

[User] Well, being the son of and being a Sephardic Jew, I grew up listening to and in many ways speaking certain words, not very fluently in the ancient language of Ladino. And so Spanish was something that I've always been attuned to. And even though it wasn't your classical Spanish, it still was something that was in my blood and my culture. And so I felt very close to that and I wanted to go to a country where I could possibly use Spanish. So I applied to South America Central or South America.

[Assistant] And do you remember anything about the application process, how long it took, what you needed to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I will say this, it did take some time and then we needed some letters of support references. You know, you had to write a very long essay, as I recall about why you wanted to join the Peace Corps and so on and so forth. And the day, the timing couldn't have been better really for me because a lot of my friends were joining, like I said, the National Guard was really big then, Army Reserve. I mean, and I had to make a decision because I hadn't heard from the Peace Corps and the day before I was supposed to go to make this final decision about whether to go to the Army Reserve. I got a letter from the Peace Corps that said, you know, welcome, you know, we're glad to have you come to the Peace Corps. And the letter was signed by someone who like the director at that time but from the Brazil Peace Corps organization, and they signed it ciao, which I thought was very odd because I always thought that was an Italian word, but it turns out they do use it in Portuguese as well.

[Assistant] And what did your family think, and your friends?

[User] They were very happy. Of course, I had been living with my family during my college years, so we were very close, and even if I hadn't been living with them, I know we would, we still would have been close. I think they were they were happy for me. They were, of course, like any parent. Any parents would be a little bit fearful of the unknown, but they were supportive.

[Assistant] And your friends?

[User] Oh, yes, they were. In fact, they gave me a surprise going away party before I went to a Peace Corps training in Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] And what project were you invited to join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were very happy. Of course, I had been living with my family during my college years, so we were very close, and even if I hadn't been living with them, I know we would, we still would have been close. I think they were they were happy for me. They were, of course, like any parent. Any parents would be a little bit fearful of the unknown, but they were supportive.

[Assistant] And your friends?

[User] Oh, yes, they were. In fact, they gave me a surprise going away party before I went to a Peace Corps training in Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] And what project were you invited to join?

[User] I was in the project that was sort of the counterpart to the 4-H clubs here. It was called Quatro Esse, which stands for 4-S. And we were supposed to go into a community. Like I said, I was in community development, and work with the children of the town, establish these clubs called clubes agrícolas, which was basically the translation is agricultural clubs, and start different projects, such as raising rabbits to kill and sell. Also, my partner was involved with the teaching of knitting skills, and it was actually trying to get people in the community to share their knowledge of these things so that once we left, there would be a sustainable project. And the idea was to make money from these clubs to give to the school that was there in the town.

[Assistant] And so how did you? Can you talk a little bit about your training? Where you had it? Who were who were your trainers, what you studied, how they prepared you for a project like that? What did you do with language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, they were. In fact, they gave me a surprise going away party before I went to a Peace Corps training in Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] And what project were you invited to join?

[User] I was in the project that was sort of the counterpart to the 4-H clubs here. It was called Quatro Esse, which stands for 4-S. And we were supposed to go into a community. Like I said, I was in community development, and work with the children of the town, establish these clubs called clubes agrícolas, which was basically the translation is agricultural clubs, and start different projects, such as raising rabbits to kill and sell. Also, my partner was involved with the teaching of knitting skills, and it was actually trying to get people in the community to share their knowledge of these things so that once we left, there would be a sustainable project. And the idea was to make money from these clubs to give to the school that was there in the town.

[Assistant] And so how did you? Can you talk a little bit about your training? Where you had it? Who were who were your trainers, what you studied, how they prepared you for a project like that? What did you do with language training?

[User] Right. In September of '68, I flew from Atlanta to New York from New York to Keene, New Hampshire, and from there took a bus with some other people who had joined the Peace Corps to Brattleboro, Vermont, to the school for international training. And stayed there for 10 weeks. While there, we studied Portuguese every day. It was total immersion almost all the time. And then we also study things that were very foreign to me, literally, figuratively as well, like raising rabbits, planting things. Agricultural endeavors, but also community organizing. How to go about doing those things. And a lot most of us were BAs, people who had graduated from college and something other than what we were going to be doing. So it was a real challenge to try to learn more about.

[Assistant] You didn't have a college background in biology?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he was going to stay for another year, I believe. In fact, I think he had extended because of his relationship with this woman, Aparacita. And a woman, a very poor woman living in a mud hut, invited us in. She was sweeping her mud floor, dirt floor. And it was just so moving to me, the kindness of the people there that, she offered a banana or something like that, it was all she could offer. But it was just so, so sincere. It wasn't just to impress anybody. I think that's what really, really made me realize that we live in such a world of privilege materially but spiritually, not in a religious sense. But in other ways. We really don't know. A lot of us don't know how to stay in touch with what's real. We look at things around us and say, well, it's a banana. But in that woman's house, it was a way to offer kindness and hospitality, which I'm not saying doesn't happen here, but I don't think I think we take those things for granted. Anyway, it was a great experience being there. Then after that, we went back to Belo Horizonte. I had a Brazilian family that has given to me before I was assigned.

[Assistant] What town was it, where you were?

[User] Santo Antonio do Amparo, after we had gotten to Belo Horizonte, which is the capital city of Minas Gerais. And then we had a Brazilian family to stay with for two or three days. Then we got sent to our regular, our sort of visitation sites.

[Assistant] But not where you were going to be?

[User] Not where I was going to be.

[Assistant] Oh so that's where you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Santo Antonio do Amparo, after we had gotten to Belo Horizonte, which is the capital city of Minas Gerais. And then we had a Brazilian family to stay with for two or three days. Then we got sent to our regular, our sort of visitation sites.

[Assistant] But not where you were going to be?

[User] Not where I was going to be.

[Assistant] Oh so that's where you were.

[User] That's where I was getting training. And then we went back to celebrate Christmas and then the holidays. And then after that, we went to our towns and we were put in a jeep with the guy who taught us Portuguese, Edson, one of the guys, great guys. And they dropped us off at the time. Met the mayor who was this man, probably in his mid- 80s, who was a member of a very powerful family in the small town Lagoa Dourada, which means golden lagoon. And his name was, I forget his first name. His last name Hesenge, with an R, initiating that word. And he was, he had no clue as to why we were there. Everything was supposed to have been settled. Okay, they're coming and you know, you're going to help them. Well, it was like pulling teeth after the guys who dropped us off left. Our center director left and then the state director left. And it was it was pretty difficult.

[Assistant] So there hadn't been volunteers in the town before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not where I was going to be.

[Assistant] Oh so that's where you were.

[User] That's where I was getting training. And then we went back to celebrate Christmas and then the holidays. And then after that, we went to our towns and we were put in a jeep with the guy who taught us Portuguese, Edson, one of the guys, great guys. And they dropped us off at the time. Met the mayor who was this man, probably in his mid- 80s, who was a member of a very powerful family in the small town Lagoa Dourada, which means golden lagoon. And his name was, I forget his first name. His last name Hesenge, with an R, initiating that word. And he was, he had no clue as to why we were there. Everything was supposed to have been settled. Okay, they're coming and you know, you're going to help them. Well, it was like pulling teeth after the guys who dropped us off left. Our center director left and then the state director left. And it was it was pretty difficult.

[Assistant] So there hadn't been volunteers in the town before?

[User] First time and the rumor.

[Assistant] And there were two of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's where I was getting training. And then we went back to celebrate Christmas and then the holidays. And then after that, we went to our towns and we were put in a jeep with the guy who taught us Portuguese, Edson, one of the guys, great guys. And they dropped us off at the time. Met the mayor who was this man, probably in his mid- 80s, who was a member of a very powerful family in the small town Lagoa Dourada, which means golden lagoon. And his name was, I forget his first name. His last name Hesenge, with an R, initiating that word. And he was, he had no clue as to why we were there. Everything was supposed to have been settled. Okay, they're coming and you know, you're going to help them. Well, it was like pulling teeth after the guys who dropped us off left. Our center director left and then the state director left. And it was it was pretty difficult.

[Assistant] So there hadn't been volunteers in the town before?

[User] First time and the rumor.

[Assistant] And there were two of you?

[User] My partner Mary and I. And the rumor had it that Los Americanos were there to exploit the gold because many years ago they had discovered gold, which is why they called it Golden Lagoon. And they thought, you know, well, these people are here, they must know something. They're Americans, right? Well, that persisted for the first few months that we were there and it was very, very hard to break through that because they looked at, they even asked things like, people would say, well, what's Jackie Kennedy like? Did you know Jack Kennedy? Because they'd get LOOK magazine and Life magazine and they'd always think that everybody knew all the wealthy people. They thought we were wealthy and compared to some of them, we really were.

[Assistant] Okay, so maybe you could talk now a little bit about the specifics of your job, what you had to do and where you lived, what a typical day was like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First time and the rumor.

[Assistant] And there were two of you?

[User] My partner Mary and I. And the rumor had it that Los Americanos were there to exploit the gold because many years ago they had discovered gold, which is why they called it Golden Lagoon. And they thought, you know, well, these people are here, they must know something. They're Americans, right? Well, that persisted for the first few months that we were there and it was very, very hard to break through that because they looked at, they even asked things like, people would say, well, what's Jackie Kennedy like? Did you know Jack Kennedy? Because they'd get LOOK magazine and Life magazine and they'd always think that everybody knew all the wealthy people. They thought we were wealthy and compared to some of them, we really were.

[Assistant] Okay, so maybe you could talk now a little bit about the specifics of your job, what you had to do and where you lived, what a typical day was like.

[User] OK. Well, there was the town of Lagoa Dourada has about 3,000 people, had about 3,000 people at that time. And just the two streets crossing each other. The main street was the road between BR3, Brazil inter-state road three, which led to Rio and another road that led to Rio de, sorry. One led to Sao Paulo, one that led to Rio.

[Assistant] How far were you from the big cities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But one of the greatest projects that we really undertook was the school to school program, which was great. And basically, there was a man named Salas Oswaldo, short man with the most beautiful blue eyes. And he looked he looked like a little, um, not an elf, but he had this sort of impish look about him, and he's just the nicest person. He would walk from his town just several kilometers away. And he had heard about us and we made contact with him. We met with him and he basically said, you know, we need a school and we live in an area that was that where they were? That wasn't even a village, it was sort of like a, I don't know what you would call it. It was smaller than the village. It was just pockets of people who were working in the field, had their own farms, but needed a place for their kids to go to school. And so they were meeting, his wife was a teacher and they were meeting, I believe, at someone's house. But they really wanted to go to school suite. We made contact with the school to school program, which at that time would set up. And you've probably heard about this too. American schools would collect money.

[Assistant] You were talking about the school to school program, and I was wondering if it was a Peace Corps program or what?

[User] I don't recall the Peace Corps actually being involved. They may have been, I don't recall the accreditation and I honestly, I think it's it was something that probably we got information on from the Peace Corps, but we had to do the writing of the proposal. And eventually the money came in and we built a two-room schoolhouse. Osvaldo oversaw the entire thing. We kept records of what we did for the books and we had an opening. It was just incredible. I mean, that to me.

[Assistant] Did this happen in your first year?

[User] Second year.

[Assistant] So in your first year, let's go back to that for just a minute. In your first year, did you ever do any of the raising rabbits or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't recall the Peace Corps actually being involved. They may have been, I don't recall the accreditation and I honestly, I think it's it was something that probably we got information on from the Peace Corps, but we had to do the writing of the proposal. And eventually the money came in and we built a two-room schoolhouse. Osvaldo oversaw the entire thing. We kept records of what we did for the books and we had an opening. It was just incredible. I mean, that to me.

[Assistant] Did this happen in your first year?

[User] Second year.

[Assistant] So in your first year, let's go back to that for just a minute. In your first year, did you ever do any of the raising rabbits or?

[User] Oh yeah. Oh, that was always fun, because the raising rabbits back in Brattleboro involved killing the rabbits. I always managed to avoid that. You would get a stick or something hard and pound them on the head. And then, of course, and skin them because this rabbit pelt, which you would have to dry and then sell would be part of what you would use to make money, plus the meat itself. You would get and you have to, you know, gut it and save parts of it. Of course, it tastes like chicken like as does everything. And so I just would refuse to do it. I'd always just sort of stand in the back.

[Assistant] You did that at training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Second year.

[Assistant] So in your first year, let's go back to that for just a minute. In your first year, did you ever do any of the raising rabbits or?

[User] Oh yeah. Oh, that was always fun, because the raising rabbits back in Brattleboro involved killing the rabbits. I always managed to avoid that. You would get a stick or something hard and pound them on the head. And then, of course, and skin them because this rabbit pelt, which you would have to dry and then sell would be part of what you would use to make money, plus the meat itself. You would get and you have to, you know, gut it and save parts of it. Of course, it tastes like chicken like as does everything. And so I just would refuse to do it. I'd always just sort of stand in the back.

[Assistant] You did that at training?

[User] At training. So raising the rabbits. I raised the rabbits and they had little rabbits, but we didn't do anything with the rabbits. And the idea was that the kids were supposed to take care them, in Brazil. The kids were supposed to then raise the rabbits, kill them, get the skin, sell them, all that stuff. So really, the rabbit.

[Assistant] Did that happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. Oh, that was always fun, because the raising rabbits back in Brattleboro involved killing the rabbits. I always managed to avoid that. You would get a stick or something hard and pound them on the head. And then, of course, and skin them because this rabbit pelt, which you would have to dry and then sell would be part of what you would use to make money, plus the meat itself. You would get and you have to, you know, gut it and save parts of it. Of course, it tastes like chicken like as does everything. And so I just would refuse to do it. I'd always just sort of stand in the back.

[Assistant] You did that at training?

[User] At training. So raising the rabbits. I raised the rabbits and they had little rabbits, but we didn't do anything with the rabbits. And the idea was that the kids were supposed to take care them, in Brazil. The kids were supposed to then raise the rabbits, kill them, get the skin, sell them, all that stuff. So really, the rabbit.

[Assistant] Did that happen?

[User] It didn't happen. I just raised the rabbits.

[Assistant] So that was not a project that took off.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At training. So raising the rabbits. I raised the rabbits and they had little rabbits, but we didn't do anything with the rabbits. And the idea was that the kids were supposed to take care them, in Brazil. The kids were supposed to then raise the rabbits, kill them, get the skin, sell them, all that stuff. So really, the rabbit.

[Assistant] Did that happen?

[User] It didn't happen. I just raised the rabbits.

[Assistant] So that was not a project that took off.

[User] It did not take off and but getting the garden going was and we grew cabbage and some other grains, which we collected and sent to market and make some money off of. I got some men in the community.

[Assistant] Who were the gardeners, was it women, children?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Did you have to take the anti-malarials?

[User] We did we had that series of shots, a lot of it, which, you know, that we had series of shots, when we were in Brattleboro for different diseases. Probably one of them was malaria.

[Assistant] So you didn't take the anti-malarials?

[User] No, not doing that.

[Assistant] Because malaria wasn't prevalent?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did we had that series of shots, a lot of it, which, you know, that we had series of shots, when we were in Brattleboro for different diseases. Probably one of them was malaria.

[Assistant] So you didn't take the anti-malarials?

[User] No, not doing that.

[Assistant] Because malaria wasn't prevalent?

[User] No, it wasn't. Now, in more tropical areas, I'm sure it was.

[Assistant] So basically, you're saying that new job really evolved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not doing that.

[Assistant] Because malaria wasn't prevalent?

[User] No, it wasn't. Now, in more tropical areas, I'm sure it was.

[Assistant] So basically, you're saying that new job really evolved?

[User] Definitely. Yeah, I mean, because at the beginning it looks great on paper, then you know, the reality is something different.

[Assistant] You told us about a few of the people you met, like the man from the village. Well, first of all, how did your language, I mean, was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn't. Now, in more tropical areas, I'm sure it was.

[Assistant] So basically, you're saying that new job really evolved?

[User] Definitely. Yeah, I mean, because at the beginning it looks great on paper, then you know, the reality is something different.

[Assistant] You told us about a few of the people you met, like the man from the village. Well, first of all, how did your language, I mean, was that?

[User] Oh my, my Portuguese, in all honesty my Portuguese is really good. I could talk to anybody.

[Assistant] Did you feel that as your Portuguese got better, it was easier to do more with this project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Definitely. Yeah, I mean, because at the beginning it looks great on paper, then you know, the reality is something different.

[Assistant] You told us about a few of the people you met, like the man from the village. Well, first of all, how did your language, I mean, was that?

[User] Oh my, my Portuguese, in all honesty my Portuguese is really good. I could talk to anybody.

[Assistant] Did you feel that as your Portuguese got better, it was easier to do more with this project?

[User] Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] You were talking about Portuguese.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh my, my Portuguese, in all honesty my Portuguese is really good. I could talk to anybody.

[Assistant] Did you feel that as your Portuguese got better, it was easier to do more with this project?

[User] Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] You were talking about Portuguese.

[User] Yes, I believe that I was able to, as my Portuguese got better, people trusted me more, I feel, because I was hanging out more with the guys and we would play soccer. I mean, I didn't know how to play soccer, but you know, I would go watch them play soccer and attempt to kick the ball. But you could pick up on things related to the culture. And you know what, what certain things were happening. And it sort of made me more attuned to where people were coming from and sort of told me what I could and could not really do. Before though, I was just, you know, green and wet behind the ears as far as Portuguese, even though I could get by pretty well. It just got better and better and Maria's did too, uh, Mary's did. They called her Maria.

[Assistant] Um, you were saying that you went to some of the soccer games. Were there any other know, basically leisure activities that you did in your free time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] You were talking about Portuguese.

[User] Yes, I believe that I was able to, as my Portuguese got better, people trusted me more, I feel, because I was hanging out more with the guys and we would play soccer. I mean, I didn't know how to play soccer, but you know, I would go watch them play soccer and attempt to kick the ball. But you could pick up on things related to the culture. And you know what, what certain things were happening. And it sort of made me more attuned to where people were coming from and sort of told me what I could and could not really do. Before though, I was just, you know, green and wet behind the ears as far as Portuguese, even though I could get by pretty well. It just got better and better and Maria's did too, uh, Mary's did. They called her Maria.

[Assistant] Um, you were saying that you went to some of the soccer games. Were there any other know, basically leisure activities that you did in your free time?

[User] Yeah, the weekend was always, there was always a dance at the club, which was basically a large room above a restaurant, and they play Brazilian bubblegum music based on American bubblegum music like Yummy, Yummy, Yummy, I got love in my tummy. And Oh Happy Day, that was a biggie. And Clarence Clearwater, they like to dance to that in English and, you know, people would go out drinking. People would just hang out, I mean, Carnival, Carnival was a big time. And then there was an amazing amount of religiosity in the city. I mean, Brazil is 90 percent Catholic, but only like 15 percent, maybe fewer than that, less of a percentage go to church. And there were some of the, um, a lot of the other holidays like Holy Week. I mean, as a Jew, you don't go to church. But I would, I had a girlfriend. And so she would go and I'd go with her.

[Assistant] Is this the first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the weekend was always, there was always a dance at the club, which was basically a large room above a restaurant, and they play Brazilian bubblegum music based on American bubblegum music like Yummy, Yummy, Yummy, I got love in my tummy. And Oh Happy Day, that was a biggie. And Clarence Clearwater, they like to dance to that in English and, you know, people would go out drinking. People would just hang out, I mean, Carnival, Carnival was a big time. And then there was an amazing amount of religiosity in the city. I mean, Brazil is 90 percent Catholic, but only like 15 percent, maybe fewer than that, less of a percentage go to church. And there were some of the, um, a lot of the other holidays like Holy Week. I mean, as a Jew, you don't go to church. But I would, I had a girlfriend. And so she would go and I'd go with her.

[Assistant] Is this the first year?

[User] The first year we started. Yeah, it's about six months after I got there or something. We were together for quite some time.

[Assistant] These are the girls from the town?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] What was her name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first year we started. Yeah, it's about six months after I got there or something. We were together for quite some time.

[Assistant] These are the girls from the town?

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] What was her name?

[User] Cecilia.

[Assistant] How old was she?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] What was her name?

[User] Cecilia.

[Assistant] How old was she?

[User] I never found out actually, she was, I think, I know she was older than I was, but it was a very sensitive topic. Because in Brazil, like in a lot of developing countries, the older woman is the less quote unquote marketable she is for marriage. And so I believe she was much older than I was. Not much older. She was older, five years older than I was.

[Assistant] You were like 22?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cecilia.

[Assistant] How old was she?

[User] I never found out actually, she was, I think, I know she was older than I was, but it was a very sensitive topic. Because in Brazil, like in a lot of developing countries, the older woman is the less quote unquote marketable she is for marriage. And so I believe she was much older than I was. Not much older. She was older, five years older than I was.

[Assistant] You were like 22?

[User] I was 22 yeah, but we were in love and, you know, I was with, you know, met her family and that proved to be very traumatic at times. Her father was an alcoholic and he would go off on just, you know, oh, you can't go out with somebody if you don't marry them. And then the fact that I was Jewish. The priest said something about Jews, and I'll never forget having dinner with him at his house. And he was showing me this book with a caricature of a nefarious person who looked very much like what Hitler would have done when he had the caricatures of Jews with long noses. You know, the curlicues on the side of the hair, pearls and the hat and the counting the money. This was his picture of a Jew. And so Cecilia's father, when he went on a rampage, getting drunk and come home, just get very violent sometimes, you know, just yell and scream a lot.

[Assistant] And what did she do for work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never found out actually, she was, I think, I know she was older than I was, but it was a very sensitive topic. Because in Brazil, like in a lot of developing countries, the older woman is the less quote unquote marketable she is for marriage. And so I believe she was much older than I was. Not much older. She was older, five years older than I was.

[Assistant] You were like 22?

[User] I was 22 yeah, but we were in love and, you know, I was with, you know, met her family and that proved to be very traumatic at times. Her father was an alcoholic and he would go off on just, you know, oh, you can't go out with somebody if you don't marry them. And then the fact that I was Jewish. The priest said something about Jews, and I'll never forget having dinner with him at his house. And he was showing me this book with a caricature of a nefarious person who looked very much like what Hitler would have done when he had the caricatures of Jews with long noses. You know, the curlicues on the side of the hair, pearls and the hat and the counting the money. This was his picture of a Jew. And so Cecilia's father, when he went on a rampage, getting drunk and come home, just get very violent sometimes, you know, just yell and scream a lot.

[Assistant] And what did she do for work?

[User] She was going to school at the time to become a teacher.

[Assistant] In the town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was 22 yeah, but we were in love and, you know, I was with, you know, met her family and that proved to be very traumatic at times. Her father was an alcoholic and he would go off on just, you know, oh, you can't go out with somebody if you don't marry them. And then the fact that I was Jewish. The priest said something about Jews, and I'll never forget having dinner with him at his house. And he was showing me this book with a caricature of a nefarious person who looked very much like what Hitler would have done when he had the caricatures of Jews with long noses. You know, the curlicues on the side of the hair, pearls and the hat and the counting the money. This was his picture of a Jew. And so Cecilia's father, when he went on a rampage, getting drunk and come home, just get very violent sometimes, you know, just yell and scream a lot.

[Assistant] And what did she do for work?

[User] She was going to school at the time to become a teacher.

[Assistant] In the town?

[User] Yeah, in the town, and I think she ended up teaching in São João del Rei, which is about 40 kilometers away. No, I can't recall if she was if, yeah, I think she finished her education courses. And since that time, I haven't had contact with her, but I know Mary as seen her on a couple of occasions and you know, you hear snippets. You're curious, you know, like to know what's going on with her family. But she was the director of the school, and now she's opened up her own language school, teaching English as a foreign language. So she really, she could speak some English.

[Assistant] Would you go back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was going to school at the time to become a teacher.

[Assistant] In the town?

[User] Yeah, in the town, and I think she ended up teaching in São João del Rei, which is about 40 kilometers away. No, I can't recall if she was if, yeah, I think she finished her education courses. And since that time, I haven't had contact with her, but I know Mary as seen her on a couple of occasions and you know, you hear snippets. You're curious, you know, like to know what's going on with her family. But she was the director of the school, and now she's opened up her own language school, teaching English as a foreign language. So she really, she could speak some English.

[Assistant] Would you go back?

[User] Me? Well, I'd like to go back sometime, take the family. Wouldn't that be?

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. Ok, so at the, well, I want to ask you also about your living conditions. You stayed in a motel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, in the town, and I think she ended up teaching in São João del Rei, which is about 40 kilometers away. No, I can't recall if she was if, yeah, I think she finished her education courses. And since that time, I haven't had contact with her, but I know Mary as seen her on a couple of occasions and you know, you hear snippets. You're curious, you know, like to know what's going on with her family. But she was the director of the school, and now she's opened up her own language school, teaching English as a foreign language. So she really, she could speak some English.

[Assistant] Would you go back?

[User] Me? Well, I'd like to go back sometime, take the family. Wouldn't that be?

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. Ok, so at the, well, I want to ask you also about your living conditions. You stayed in a motel?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] The whole time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Me? Well, I'd like to go back sometime, take the family. Wouldn't that be?

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. Ok, so at the, well, I want to ask you also about your living conditions. You stayed in a motel?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] The whole time?

[User] The whole time. And then after the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] There was nothing else available, or wasn't it kind of expensive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] The whole time?

[User] The whole time. And then after the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] There was nothing else available, or wasn't it kind of expensive?

[User] It was convenient. Put it that way. I mean, I had privacy as much as I could. Um, unfortunately, sometimes when Cecilia would come to my room of course everybody could hear it and that wasn't good because, you know, being a virgin was big and still is in many places. And I'm not saying we had sex, but what I'm saying is, is that the implications of that could be deadly to someone's reputation. After the Peace Corps, I stayed on in Brazil for another, boy, a year and a half, close for two years because I wanted to stay there and Cecilia and I were very involved. We almost got married in a matter of fact.

[Assistant] Oh, you stayed involved with her the whole time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The whole time. And then after the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] There was nothing else available, or wasn't it kind of expensive?

[User] It was convenient. Put it that way. I mean, I had privacy as much as I could. Um, unfortunately, sometimes when Cecilia would come to my room of course everybody could hear it and that wasn't good because, you know, being a virgin was big and still is in many places. And I'm not saying we had sex, but what I'm saying is, is that the implications of that could be deadly to someone's reputation. After the Peace Corps, I stayed on in Brazil for another, boy, a year and a half, close for two years because I wanted to stay there and Cecilia and I were very involved. We almost got married in a matter of fact.

[Assistant] Oh, you stayed involved with her the whole time.

[User] And yeah, but I. And so what, I started living with, I would stay with her family and I come home on the weekends as I worked in Belo Horizonte teaching English. On the weekends I'd go back, but I was not related to the Peace Corps at all at that time. I separated from it. But Mary was still in the Peace Corps for the first year, and so she was having difficulty because she didn't want to go back to come back to the States. She wanted to stay there.

[Assistant] Okay. So at the end of it, the first year, I don't even remember how you felt when you decided to stay on. Had you had any health problems, take any trips at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And yeah, but I. And so what, I started living with, I would stay with her family and I come home on the weekends as I worked in Belo Horizonte teaching English. On the weekends I'd go back, but I was not related to the Peace Corps at all at that time. I separated from it. But Mary was still in the Peace Corps for the first year, and so she was having difficulty because she didn't want to go back to come back to the States. She wanted to stay there.

[Assistant] Okay. So at the end of it, the first year, I don't even remember how you felt when you decided to stay on. Had you had any health problems, take any trips at the time?

[User] I had a health problem once. I had a very serious sinus sinusitis attack. It really laid me low. And Cecilia had been a nurse at one time, so she has to take care of me. And you know, you could go to the pharmacy and get the medicine you needed and then she would just kind of give me a shot or whatever. But I was really sick for about a month and a half. I lost a lot of weight. And um, but, you know, recovered. And as far as trips go, I did travel a lot by myself. Mary would go with a couple that was from a town that wasn't too far away and this couple is actually still married.

[Assistant] Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] Peace Corps volunteer. But I would travel by myself.

[Assistant] Did you have much contact with other volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a health problem once. I had a very serious sinus sinusitis attack. It really laid me low. And Cecilia had been a nurse at one time, so she has to take care of me. And you know, you could go to the pharmacy and get the medicine you needed and then she would just kind of give me a shot or whatever. But I was really sick for about a month and a half. I lost a lot of weight. And um, but, you know, recovered. And as far as trips go, I did travel a lot by myself. Mary would go with a couple that was from a town that wasn't too far away and this couple is actually still married.

[Assistant] Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] Peace Corps volunteer. But I would travel by myself.

[Assistant] Did you have much contact with other volunteers?

[User] Not really. And I didn't mind it that much. You know, I traveled to Rio, Sao Paolo. I went to Curitiba in the southern part of Brazil, never made it to the most southern state, which is Rio Grande do Sul, which is right on the border with Uruguay and Argentina. As far north, I went as far north as Rio Grande do Norte which is one of the most northern states. Never made it to the Amazon unfortunately. But yeah, those were trips that I really enjoyed and traveling by yourself you get lonely sometimes, but it was alright.

[Assistant] And so at the end of the first year, did you have a kind of a better idea what you were going to be doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps volunteer. But I would travel by myself.

[Assistant] Did you have much contact with other volunteers?

[User] Not really. And I didn't mind it that much. You know, I traveled to Rio, Sao Paolo. I went to Curitiba in the southern part of Brazil, never made it to the most southern state, which is Rio Grande do Sul, which is right on the border with Uruguay and Argentina. As far north, I went as far north as Rio Grande do Norte which is one of the most northern states. Never made it to the Amazon unfortunately. But yeah, those were trips that I really enjoyed and traveling by yourself you get lonely sometimes, but it was alright.

[Assistant] And so at the end of the first year, did you have a kind of a better idea what you were going to be doing?

[User] Yeah, yeah. Things are falling into place.

[Assistant] Had you already started the school project then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did have some, like, you know, organizing. I think in see, we had some things done, but I don't recall what they were. I guess the fact that I don't recall says how important they really were or anything. I mean, once I left after two years, I didn't have much to. I mean, I look back on what I got out of it, but I don't know what the people there got out of it. So although I will say this, when Mary returned to Lagoa Dourada back in 2002 or 2003, she sent a video, I have it, of the town and I have actually dreamed of the town. I had dreamed of the town before she went there, and the pictures that I see of the town are a lot like what my dreams have been like, which is very odd. And I guess the theme from The Twilight Zone should be blaring now. But uh, but the Oswaldo was in town when she was there.

[Assistant] Who's that?

[User] He is the man who helped build the school.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] He still remembers to this day. He's got a picture of us in his house.

[Assistant] And is the school still operating?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He is the man who helped build the school.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] He still remembers to this day. He's got a picture of us in his house.

[Assistant] And is the school still operating?

[User] The school is still operating. Isn't that amazing? So if there's anything I can say that we did, that was it.

[Assistant] That's really, yeah. I mean, I was just about to ask you if you felt like you had achieved anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He still remembers to this day. He's got a picture of us in his house.

[Assistant] And is the school still operating?

[User] The school is still operating. Isn't that amazing? So if there's anything I can say that we did, that was it.

[Assistant] That's really, yeah. I mean, I was just about to ask you if you felt like you had achieved anything.

[User] I think we also broke down some stereotypes of Americans all being wealthy and the fact that like three kids in my family and Mary's family, the two and two of her parents were accused of being lazy and half joking. But you know what that means you each have more kids, you know? But it was sort of like, well, you know, people are different. And I think that was something else that we were able to tell them about our world, just like we were learning about theirs. But there was not one way to do that one, honestly.

[Assistant] Well, that's a good place to talk about this because, you know, Peace Corps had these three goals. Don't know if they talked to you about them. To provide the technical assistance, to help promote a better understanding of Americans, and then to help promote better understanding of other peoples, you know, by Americans. And do you feel like your service, that you fulfilled those three?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wish I did.

[Assistant] Mary had gone back. Like in the video, does the town look similar?

[User] In some ways and very different in others. I mean, it's definitely grown. It's become sort of almost a bedroom community of Belo Horizonte, although not quite because it's so, excuse me, so far away.

[Assistant] How far was it, that's the capital of the state?

[User] It's a city about the size of Atlanta. And I'm sure it's. The road, you don't have superhighways there, like they do here. So there were these two or four lane roads, sometimes maybe two and Minas Gerais, which translates into general mines, was an iron producing and gold producing part of Brazil. And so taking the bus, you go through these iron ore fields and coal fields, and it was really sort of, you know, a long trip. But you know, it's sort of stark landscape that you have these mountains and probably like you saw in Africa, the termite hills. We had lots of those, but I'm sure Lagoa Dourada has become sort of a place where people go on weekends. It seems like a much more affluent town.

[Assistant] Than it was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In some ways and very different in others. I mean, it's definitely grown. It's become sort of almost a bedroom community of Belo Horizonte, although not quite because it's so, excuse me, so far away.

[Assistant] How far was it, that's the capital of the state?

[User] It's a city about the size of Atlanta. And I'm sure it's. The road, you don't have superhighways there, like they do here. So there were these two or four lane roads, sometimes maybe two and Minas Gerais, which translates into general mines, was an iron producing and gold producing part of Brazil. And so taking the bus, you go through these iron ore fields and coal fields, and it was really sort of, you know, a long trip. But you know, it's sort of stark landscape that you have these mountains and probably like you saw in Africa, the termite hills. We had lots of those, but I'm sure Lagoa Dourada has become sort of a place where people go on weekends. It seems like a much more affluent town.

[Assistant] Than it was.

[User] Than it was, right.

[Assistant] And you haven't heard anything from any of those people that you worked with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. But the product was, is that I mean, the thing was that some of the kids that had to do, they were, you know, mentally challenged. And so it's just something like out of One Hundred Years of Solitude that you can't believe exists. But that's a great book to read, either before, during, or after having an experience like that. And I'm not saying it as someone who's just gawking at them and making fun of, pointing fingers. It's just that we're so sheltered we don't realize what it's like.

[Assistant] Like [inaubible], have you read any of his books?

[User] No, I have not.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Yeah, that book was written probably in the sixties maybe. So I guess with becoming things. I think that when I went, when I left the Peace Corps, I stayed in Brazil longer.

[Assistant] Yeah, what prompted that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I have not.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Yeah, that book was written probably in the sixties maybe. So I guess with becoming things. I think that when I went, when I left the Peace Corps, I stayed in Brazil longer.

[Assistant] Yeah, what prompted that?

[User] Well, I loved Brazil. I came home for two months in '71, January, end of January something like that. Stayed until early March, went back to Brazil, got a job teaching English in two different schools, and I just loved the life there, I thought it was great.

[Assistant] When you finally did come back, did you get involved in any Peace Corps activity that was for returned volunteers, especially the, you know, third goal activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that book was written probably in the sixties maybe. So I guess with becoming things. I think that when I went, when I left the Peace Corps, I stayed in Brazil longer.

[Assistant] Yeah, what prompted that?

[User] Well, I loved Brazil. I came home for two months in '71, January, end of January something like that. Stayed until early March, went back to Brazil, got a job teaching English in two different schools, and I just loved the life there, I thought it was great.

[Assistant] When you finally did come back, did you get involved in any Peace Corps activity that was for returned volunteers, especially the, you know, third goal activities?

[User] No, no, I didn't. Unfortunately, I I say.

[Assistant] What about through your work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes.

I was at Langley [Research Center, Hampton], Virginia, which was NASA, and a lot of the people that were there were going down here to join, and we had a couple of reasons. One, we’re Midwesterners. Two, Betty’s sister was a doctor at UTMB [University of Texas Medical Branch] in Galveston, and that put us into contact with her. It really was a no-brainer for us to want to come down with them. We waited until the first wave of them got down, because I was finishing up an experiment, but we got here as soon as we could.

[Assistant] Had you been watching the weather and seeing what was happening down here with Hurricane Carla? Was that weighing on your mind?

[User] Yes, we always watched it, because my sister lived in Galveston. That didn’t seem to bother us though. We were just excited about a new kind of frontier if you will, a new hometown. That was my thoughts I had written down at one time. It was all very impressive and exciting to go to a new hometown.

[Assistant] Dick, did you come out here for a look and see trip? I understand that they allowed some members of the STG [Space Task Group] to come out and take a look around.

[User] Yes, we did. I came here, and I stayed a couple nights with Betty’s sister and visited. They hadn’t even built but one building when I came down, and housing was brand-new. There were very few that had sold yet. It was very brand-new. I like the Midwest, so it appealed to me, and what they were doing. A lot of the NASA offices were down the freeway, they weren’t here on site. It was looking like something I really wanted to do.

[Assistant] Was there still any destruction left from Carla when you got here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we always watched it, because my sister lived in Galveston. That didn’t seem to bother us though. We were just excited about a new kind of frontier if you will, a new hometown. That was my thoughts I had written down at one time. It was all very impressive and exciting to go to a new hometown.

[Assistant] Dick, did you come out here for a look and see trip? I understand that they allowed some members of the STG [Space Task Group] to come out and take a look around.

[User] Yes, we did. I came here, and I stayed a couple nights with Betty’s sister and visited. They hadn’t even built but one building when I came down, and housing was brand-new. There were very few that had sold yet. It was very brand-new. I like the Midwest, so it appealed to me, and what they were doing. A lot of the NASA offices were down the freeway, they weren’t here on site. It was looking like something I really wanted to do.

[Assistant] Was there still any destruction left from Carla when you got here?

[User]
I don’t remember any destruction.

I don’t remember it, no.

[Assistant] What did you tell Betty about the area when you came back? Did you take any photos or any film?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we did. I came here, and I stayed a couple nights with Betty’s sister and visited. They hadn’t even built but one building when I came down, and housing was brand-new. There were very few that had sold yet. It was very brand-new. I like the Midwest, so it appealed to me, and what they were doing. A lot of the NASA offices were down the freeway, they weren’t here on site. It was looking like something I really wanted to do.

[Assistant] Was there still any destruction left from Carla when you got here?

[User]
I don’t remember any destruction.

I don’t remember it, no.

[Assistant] What did you tell Betty about the area when you came back? Did you take any photos or any film?

[User]
I didn’t take any photos or film.

We were just ready to go.

Yes, and the kids were pretty young.

Six and four.

We got down here so they could start school. Didn’t have to take them out of school, and I think that all worked out well. Our place in Virginia was very close to Langley.

We lived in Newport News and in Hampton.

The wind tunnels, when they went off in the middle of the night, were very noisy; we could hear them pretty good.

I’d forgotten that.

[Assistant] I bet, I bet. When did you officially move down here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I didn’t take any photos or film.

We were just ready to go.

Yes, and the kids were pretty young.

Six and four.

We got down here so they could start school. Didn’t have to take them out of school, and I think that all worked out well. Our place in Virginia was very close to Langley.

We lived in Newport News and in Hampton.

The wind tunnels, when they went off in the middle of the night, were very noisy; we could hear them pretty good.

I’d forgotten that.

[Assistant] I bet, I bet. When did you officially move down here?

[User] Halloween of—I wrote it down—1964. We bought the house and moved into the house, and then we had children at the front door. We had no candy.

[Assistant] Oh my.

[User]
We were not very popular.

There weren’t very many kids. There weren’t very many houses occupied at that point in time either.

I think there were only two houses that were lived in on our street at the time.

[Assistant] You said you lived on Redway [Lane].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Halloween of—I wrote it down—1964. We bought the house and moved into the house, and then we had children at the front door. We had no candy.

[Assistant] Oh my.

[User]
We were not very popular.

There weren’t very many kids. There weren’t very many houses occupied at that point in time either.

I think there were only two houses that were lived in on our street at the time.

[Assistant] You said you lived on Redway [Lane].

[User]
On Redway. It’s the Del Webb planned community.

It was still a pretty rustic area. We’d see snakes in the street. We would look out through the front door, and there’s cows walking down the street. Cattle was breaking out.

I don’t remember that.

It was an interesting time, but it grew up pretty quick.

[Assistant] When you were here initially did you put down earnest money for a house? Did you look at Clear Lake City and decide this is where you wanted to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We were not very popular.

There weren’t very many kids. There weren’t very many houses occupied at that point in time either.

I think there were only two houses that were lived in on our street at the time.

[Assistant] You said you lived on Redway [Lane].

[User]
On Redway. It’s the Del Webb planned community.

It was still a pretty rustic area. We’d see snakes in the street. We would look out through the front door, and there’s cows walking down the street. Cattle was breaking out.

I don’t remember that.

It was an interesting time, but it grew up pretty quick.

[Assistant] When you were here initially did you put down earnest money for a house? Did you look at Clear Lake City and decide this is where you wanted to go?

[User]
I did look at it, but no I did not.

We actually didn’t buy the house till we got here.

[Assistant] Where did you live initially? Did you rent property?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
On Redway. It’s the Del Webb planned community.

It was still a pretty rustic area. We’d see snakes in the street. We would look out through the front door, and there’s cows walking down the street. Cattle was breaking out.

I don’t remember that.

It was an interesting time, but it grew up pretty quick.

[Assistant] When you were here initially did you put down earnest money for a house? Did you look at Clear Lake City and decide this is where you wanted to go?

[User]
I did look at it, but no I did not.

We actually didn’t buy the house till we got here.

[Assistant] Where did you live initially? Did you rent property?

[User] No, we stayed at the Ramada Inn that was across from Building 1 and we stayed there almost a month. The kids had a good time because there was a swimming pool.

[Assistant] That would be fun.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I did look at it, but no I did not.

We actually didn’t buy the house till we got here.

[Assistant] Where did you live initially? Did you rent property?

[User] No, we stayed at the Ramada Inn that was across from Building 1 and we stayed there almost a month. The kids had a good time because there was a swimming pool.

[Assistant] That would be fun.

[User] But that’s no longer there, the old Ramada Inn.

[Assistant] Is that where Space Center Houston is now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we stayed at the Ramada Inn that was across from Building 1 and we stayed there almost a month. The kids had a good time because there was a swimming pool.

[Assistant] That would be fun.

[User] But that’s no longer there, the old Ramada Inn.

[Assistant] Is that where Space Center Houston is now?

[User]
Across the street. Let’s see, what’s in there now? I’ve forgotten.

There’s that big building where you walk up the stairs. It’s a contractor building.

That’s Joan’s building, yes.

[Assistant] Is that the SAIC buildings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that’s no longer there, the old Ramada Inn.

[Assistant] Is that where Space Center Houston is now?

[User]
Across the street. Let’s see, what’s in there now? I’ve forgotten.

There’s that big building where you walk up the stairs. It’s a contractor building.

That’s Joan’s building, yes.

[Assistant] Is that the SAIC buildings?

[User] I think that’s what you call it. It’s a big stairway going up.

[Assistant] I think I know which ones.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Across the street. Let’s see, what’s in there now? I’ve forgotten.

There’s that big building where you walk up the stairs. It’s a contractor building.

That’s Joan’s building, yes.

[Assistant] Is that the SAIC buildings?

[User] I think that’s what you call it. It’s a big stairway going up.

[Assistant] I think I know which ones.

[User]
Our daughter worked there for a while.

Somewhere along there is where that hotel was.

Yes, there wasn’t anything else there.

[Assistant] Besides it being kind of rustic, as you said, what are some of your other memories as you came here? Had you been here before since your sister lived here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that’s what you call it. It’s a big stairway going up.

[Assistant] I think I know which ones.

[User]
Our daughter worked there for a while.

Somewhere along there is where that hotel was.

Yes, there wasn’t anything else there.

[Assistant] Besides it being kind of rustic, as you said, what are some of your other memories as you came here? Had you been here before since your sister lived here?

[User] No, I’d never been here before.

[Assistant] What did you think as you came down the Gulf Freeway?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Our daughter worked there for a while.

Somewhere along there is where that hotel was.

Yes, there wasn’t anything else there.

[Assistant] Besides it being kind of rustic, as you said, what are some of your other memories as you came here? Had you been here before since your sister lived here?

[User] No, I’d never been here before.

[Assistant] What did you think as you came down the Gulf Freeway?

[User] It was a frog-choking storm, and we were in a Rambler station wagon with the kids in the back. They didn’t have to wear seatbelts. We just thought, “What are we getting into,” because it was really stormy. We had packed up our house and [there were] just a lot of unknowns.

[Assistant] What about the area itself when you came into Clear Lake? Were you surprised by how the area wasn’t really developed? By the fact that there wasn’t much here, and they were building this massive Center devoted to Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I’d never been here before.

[Assistant] What did you think as you came down the Gulf Freeway?

[User] It was a frog-choking storm, and we were in a Rambler station wagon with the kids in the back. They didn’t have to wear seatbelts. We just thought, “What are we getting into,” because it was really stormy. We had packed up our house and [there were] just a lot of unknowns.

[Assistant] What about the area itself when you came into Clear Lake? Were you surprised by how the area wasn’t really developed? By the fact that there wasn’t much here, and they were building this massive Center devoted to Apollo?

[User]
We didn’t even have a grocery store for a little while.

Yes. They had the original little shopping strip where Aldi is now. That shopping strip. There was a Piggly Wiggly, a Walgreen’s on the corner, and a dime store, a Woolworth’s store. If we wanted any serious shopping, we had to go down the freeway to what they used to call the Sage store. It was a big-box store.\n\n For clothing and that sort of thing, we went downtown to Foley’s, and you rode the elevator up, and you had lunch at the Azalea Room. Kids loved that.

[Assistant] Oh, I bet, kind of an adventure for them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a frog-choking storm, and we were in a Rambler station wagon with the kids in the back. They didn’t have to wear seatbelts. We just thought, “What are we getting into,” because it was really stormy. We had packed up our house and [there were] just a lot of unknowns.

[Assistant] What about the area itself when you came into Clear Lake? Were you surprised by how the area wasn’t really developed? By the fact that there wasn’t much here, and they were building this massive Center devoted to Apollo?

[User]
We didn’t even have a grocery store for a little while.

Yes. They had the original little shopping strip where Aldi is now. That shopping strip. There was a Piggly Wiggly, a Walgreen’s on the corner, and a dime store, a Woolworth’s store. If we wanted any serious shopping, we had to go down the freeway to what they used to call the Sage store. It was a big-box store.\n\n For clothing and that sort of thing, we went downtown to Foley’s, and you rode the elevator up, and you had lunch at the Azalea Room. Kids loved that.

[Assistant] Oh, I bet, kind of an adventure for them.

[User] Yes. We had to go downtown for shopping for clothes or anything like that.

[Assistant] Was traffic as bad as it is today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We didn’t even have a grocery store for a little while.

Yes. They had the original little shopping strip where Aldi is now. That shopping strip. There was a Piggly Wiggly, a Walgreen’s on the corner, and a dime store, a Woolworth’s store. If we wanted any serious shopping, we had to go down the freeway to what they used to call the Sage store. It was a big-box store.\n\n For clothing and that sort of thing, we went downtown to Foley’s, and you rode the elevator up, and you had lunch at the Azalea Room. Kids loved that.

[Assistant] Oh, I bet, kind of an adventure for them.

[User] Yes. We had to go downtown for shopping for clothes or anything like that.

[Assistant] Was traffic as bad as it is today?

[User]
It’s not got better.

It was always under construction.

Highway 3 was a two-lane road, very poorly lit. I guess the freeway was there, but it wasn’t used very much.

Not as busy.

[Assistant] What about the streets in Oakbrook? Were they paved by that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We had to go downtown for shopping for clothes or anything like that.

[Assistant] Was traffic as bad as it is today?

[User]
It’s not got better.

It was always under construction.

Highway 3 was a two-lane road, very poorly lit. I guess the freeway was there, but it wasn’t used very much.

Not as busy.

[Assistant] What about the streets in Oakbrook? Were they paved by that point?

[User]
Oh yes.

Yes. Del Webb had paved the streets around the houses that were built, which basically were only a few blocks on each side of the golf course.

Right, and the rec center was built, everything was built before we got here: the rec center, the golf course. The first neighborhood of course was Oakbrook, and then after two or three years another builder came in and Friendswood [Development Company] left, and then they built with other builders on the other side of the golf course.

[Assistant] You live in a Del Webb house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It’s not got better.

It was always under construction.

Highway 3 was a two-lane road, very poorly lit. I guess the freeway was there, but it wasn’t used very much.

Not as busy.

[Assistant] What about the streets in Oakbrook? Were they paved by that point?

[User]
Oh yes.

Yes. Del Webb had paved the streets around the houses that were built, which basically were only a few blocks on each side of the golf course.

Right, and the rec center was built, everything was built before we got here: the rec center, the golf course. The first neighborhood of course was Oakbrook, and then after two or three years another builder came in and Friendswood [Development Company] left, and then they built with other builders on the other side of the golf course.

[Assistant] You live in a Del Webb house.

[User]
Yes.

I think they had like four models, maybe it was five. We just bought one of the models, and that house was replicated every block.

There were the 100 houses and the 200 houses. The 200 houses were larger, and we thought, “Oh, we don’t need that space.” But guess what.

[Assistant] With kids it’s amazing how much stuff you accumulate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh yes.

Yes. Del Webb had paved the streets around the houses that were built, which basically were only a few blocks on each side of the golf course.

Right, and the rec center was built, everything was built before we got here: the rec center, the golf course. The first neighborhood of course was Oakbrook, and then after two or three years another builder came in and Friendswood [Development Company] left, and then they built with other builders on the other side of the golf course.

[Assistant] You live in a Del Webb house.

[User]
Yes.

I think they had like four models, maybe it was five. We just bought one of the models, and that house was replicated every block.

There were the 100 houses and the 200 houses. The 200 houses were larger, and we thought, “Oh, we don’t need that space.” But guess what.

[Assistant] With kids it’s amazing how much stuff you accumulate.

[User] We lived in the house 52 years. Same house, the only house we’ve ever owned.

[Assistant] That must have been hard to say goodbye, a lot of memories.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes.

I think they had like four models, maybe it was five. We just bought one of the models, and that house was replicated every block.

There were the 100 houses and the 200 houses. The 200 houses were larger, and we thought, “Oh, we don’t need that space.” But guess what.

[Assistant] With kids it’s amazing how much stuff you accumulate.

[User] We lived in the house 52 years. Same house, the only house we’ve ever owned.

[Assistant] That must have been hard to say goodbye, a lot of memories.

[User] Yes, but it was time.

[Assistant] I live in the neighborhood, so I know that. You mentioned there were only about two houses finished on your block when you came. How quickly did the rest of the street fill out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We lived in the house 52 years. Same house, the only house we’ve ever owned.

[Assistant] That must have been hard to say goodbye, a lot of memories.

[User] Yes, but it was time.

[Assistant] I live in the neighborhood, so I know that. You mentioned there were only about two houses finished on your block when you came. How quickly did the rest of the street fill out?

[User]
I think within six months to a year all our street was filled.

The houses were built, they weren’t sold. Our next-door neighbor had moved in just before us. Within a year, I think, all the houses were sold.

NASA was importing a lot of people at that point.

They were recruiting, yes.

They were filling this up.

[Assistant] Were most of your neighbors affiliated with NASA, or were they affiliated like old-timers, farming, ranching, petrochemical?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but it was time.

[Assistant] I live in the neighborhood, so I know that. You mentioned there were only about two houses finished on your block when you came. How quickly did the rest of the street fill out?

[User]
I think within six months to a year all our street was filled.

The houses were built, they weren’t sold. Our next-door neighbor had moved in just before us. Within a year, I think, all the houses were sold.

NASA was importing a lot of people at that point.

They were recruiting, yes.

They were filling this up.

[Assistant] Were most of your neighbors affiliated with NASA, or were they affiliated like old-timers, farming, ranching, petrochemical?

[User]
They were mostly NASA.

All NASA people.

[Assistant] All NASA, that’s unusual.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I think within six months to a year all our street was filled.

The houses were built, they weren’t sold. Our next-door neighbor had moved in just before us. Within a year, I think, all the houses were sold.

NASA was importing a lot of people at that point.

They were recruiting, yes.

They were filling this up.

[Assistant] Were most of your neighbors affiliated with NASA, or were they affiliated like old-timers, farming, ranching, petrochemical?

[User]
They were mostly NASA.

All NASA people.

[Assistant] All NASA, that’s unusual.

[User] When you move away, you don’t have any extended family. Then they became your family.

[Assistant] I was going to ask about that, because I think that is very interesting to me, the fact that people moved here, they didn’t have anyone to depend on, so they had to depend on each other. I wondered if you would talk a little bit about that and how that helped to create this Clear Lake area community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
They were mostly NASA.

All NASA people.

[Assistant] All NASA, that’s unusual.

[User] When you move away, you don’t have any extended family. Then they became your family.

[Assistant] I was going to ask about that, because I think that is very interesting to me, the fact that people moved here, they didn’t have anyone to depend on, so they had to depend on each other. I wondered if you would talk a little bit about that and how that helped to create this Clear Lake area community.

[User]
You were at home, so you would have a better feel than I would. I was traveling.

Yes. Most families, most of the time, the mom was home. We had morning coffees with the neighbors and that sort of thing, and I think that helped build a sense of family. We all of course were NASA people, so whatever went on at NASA we were involved in. Then about five or six years later my mother moved from Wisconsin and she had an apartment here in Clear Lake, the Kings Inn or something. What was the name of that place? She had been widowed, so she came to be with the grandkids. That was a big help.

[Assistant] Oh, I bet. When you guys were having morning coffee, I know that the guys were constantly talking shop, even when they were off work. Were you talking about that? Or were you focused on kids, family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When you move away, you don’t have any extended family. Then they became your family.

[Assistant] I was going to ask about that, because I think that is very interesting to me, the fact that people moved here, they didn’t have anyone to depend on, so they had to depend on each other. I wondered if you would talk a little bit about that and how that helped to create this Clear Lake area community.

[User]
You were at home, so you would have a better feel than I would. I was traveling.

Yes. Most families, most of the time, the mom was home. We had morning coffees with the neighbors and that sort of thing, and I think that helped build a sense of family. We all of course were NASA people, so whatever went on at NASA we were involved in. Then about five or six years later my mother moved from Wisconsin and she had an apartment here in Clear Lake, the Kings Inn or something. What was the name of that place? She had been widowed, so she came to be with the grandkids. That was a big help.

[Assistant] Oh, I bet. When you guys were having morning coffee, I know that the guys were constantly talking shop, even when they were off work. Were you talking about that? Or were you focused on kids, family?

[User] Just family and kids and that. We all in the background knew that our husbands were traveling or whatever. It was just mostly mom stuff.

[Assistant] How did you juggle that? I wanted to ask you, Dick, too about how much you were traveling, and where you were traveling to. I’ve heard people were working 60-, 70-hour workweeks. Were you working those kind of hours? Were you able to spend much time with your family at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
You were at home, so you would have a better feel than I would. I was traveling.

Yes. Most families, most of the time, the mom was home. We had morning coffees with the neighbors and that sort of thing, and I think that helped build a sense of family. We all of course were NASA people, so whatever went on at NASA we were involved in. Then about five or six years later my mother moved from Wisconsin and she had an apartment here in Clear Lake, the Kings Inn or something. What was the name of that place? She had been widowed, so she came to be with the grandkids. That was a big help.

[Assistant] Oh, I bet. When you guys were having morning coffee, I know that the guys were constantly talking shop, even when they were off work. Were you talking about that? Or were you focused on kids, family?

[User] Just family and kids and that. We all in the background knew that our husbands were traveling or whatever. It was just mostly mom stuff.

[Assistant] How did you juggle that? I wanted to ask you, Dick, too about how much you were traveling, and where you were traveling to. I’ve heard people were working 60-, 70-hour workweeks. Were you working those kind of hours? Were you able to spend much time with your family at that point?

[User] Probably not as much as I would have liked. But it was so exciting, what we were doing, and new, that the time went fast. Then there was a lot of travel involved. Some of us were heading for Europe for meetings, so you were gone a lot more than you would like to be.

[Assistant] What were you working on that took you to Europe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just family and kids and that. We all in the background knew that our husbands were traveling or whatever. It was just mostly mom stuff.

[Assistant] How did you juggle that? I wanted to ask you, Dick, too about how much you were traveling, and where you were traveling to. I’ve heard people were working 60-, 70-hour workweeks. Were you working those kind of hours? Were you able to spend much time with your family at that point?

[User] Probably not as much as I would have liked. But it was so exciting, what we were doing, and new, that the time went fast. Then there was a lot of travel involved. Some of us were heading for Europe for meetings, so you were gone a lot more than you would like to be.

[Assistant] What were you working on that took you to Europe?

[User]
When the Shuttle was first designed, the Europeans wanted to build a living quarters they’d put in there. NASA decided that, I think there were three or four of us, should go over there and make sure that they built something that would fit in and that had the human factors touch to it, that if you got a red sign that means something or a gray sign. We went over there for a few months and spent some time at a German factory in Bremen, Germany. Germans didn’t care for us too much. We bombed the heck out of Bremen in World War II, and they were sort of grouchy.

Then you traveled to California a lot, to Downey. We’d go with him sometimes, go to Disneyland. We had a good time on those trips.

They played all day, and I worked.

[Assistant] I think that works the same way today. I try and do it as well. I probably don’t travel as much as you did. You were working on the command module? Was that your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably not as much as I would have liked. But it was so exciting, what we were doing, and new, that the time went fast. Then there was a lot of travel involved. Some of us were heading for Europe for meetings, so you were gone a lot more than you would like to be.

[Assistant] What were you working on that took you to Europe?

[User]
When the Shuttle was first designed, the Europeans wanted to build a living quarters they’d put in there. NASA decided that, I think there were three or four of us, should go over there and make sure that they built something that would fit in and that had the human factors touch to it, that if you got a red sign that means something or a gray sign. We went over there for a few months and spent some time at a German factory in Bremen, Germany. Germans didn’t care for us too much. We bombed the heck out of Bremen in World War II, and they were sort of grouchy.

Then you traveled to California a lot, to Downey. We’d go with him sometimes, go to Disneyland. We had a good time on those trips.

They played all day, and I worked.

[Assistant] I think that works the same way today. I try and do it as well. I probably don’t travel as much as you did. You were working on the command module? Was that your assignment?

[User]
Yes. I was cockpit for the Orbiter.

Guidance and control.

I was in the Guidance and Control Division so everything in the cockpit became my necessity. When we started designing, we went around the country on two different tours to visit different companies to see what modern airplanes were using. We built on that data.\n\n The astronauts that were senior at that time were used to flying mechanical instruments because they were a little older. They weren’t used to CRTs [cathode ray tubes]. There was a little bias against CRTs. We built the original cockpit without them, and we added them later on.

[Assistant] I forgot to ask. Where was your original office? You moved here and the Center wasn’t built.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
When the Shuttle was first designed, the Europeans wanted to build a living quarters they’d put in there. NASA decided that, I think there were three or four of us, should go over there and make sure that they built something that would fit in and that had the human factors touch to it, that if you got a red sign that means something or a gray sign. We went over there for a few months and spent some time at a German factory in Bremen, Germany. Germans didn’t care for us too much. We bombed the heck out of Bremen in World War II, and they were sort of grouchy.

Then you traveled to California a lot, to Downey. We’d go with him sometimes, go to Disneyland. We had a good time on those trips.

They played all day, and I worked.

[Assistant] I think that works the same way today. I try and do it as well. I probably don’t travel as much as you did. You were working on the command module? Was that your assignment?

[User]
Yes. I was cockpit for the Orbiter.

Guidance and control.

I was in the Guidance and Control Division so everything in the cockpit became my necessity. When we started designing, we went around the country on two different tours to visit different companies to see what modern airplanes were using. We built on that data.\n\n The astronauts that were senior at that time were used to flying mechanical instruments because they were a little older. They weren’t used to CRTs [cathode ray tubes]. There was a little bias against CRTs. We built the original cockpit without them, and we added them later on.

[Assistant] I forgot to ask. Where was your original office? You moved here and the Center wasn’t built.

[User] Original was Building 16.

[Assistant] Were you located off site before the Center officially opened?