[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How long did that take? Is that a?

[User]
I believe it was in July that I applied and I was accepted right away because the month of August I left Oakland and spent the month of August in South Carolina with my mother. So then when I went back to Oakland, I had to go through my physical, and my physical was at the Alameda Naval Base. So I went through that. The doctor did not really want to pass me because I have bunions on my feet. And I'm like, they've been there as long as I can remember. And so he had me do some exercises, and so he said, okay, you can go.

Then, uh, in October we went to Philadelphia, and that's where we had our staging. And of course, we had to go through all these psychological tests and there were more health things that were involved. And of course, I come across this ophthalmologist who does not want me to go because of my eyesight. And at the time I was wearing contact lenses. So I convinced him that I could wear ski goggles. I don't know. I don't ski. I have never been on skis, but I have seen people in ski gear. And I said, well, I can wear ski goggles. So he said.

[Assistant] The problem, the problem was that you had contact lenses?

[User] Right. And he was saying, well, it's dusty. And I said, I can wear ski goggles. So he said, get yourself a pair of ski goggles and you can go. So I had a few little bumps along the way, but then next thing I know, I'm on a plane headed to Nairobi, Kenya.

[Assistant] So you said there were 32 people in your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I believe it was in July that I applied and I was accepted right away because the month of August I left Oakland and spent the month of August in South Carolina with my mother. So then when I went back to Oakland, I had to go through my physical, and my physical was at the Alameda Naval Base. So I went through that. The doctor did not really want to pass me because I have bunions on my feet. And I'm like, they've been there as long as I can remember. And so he had me do some exercises, and so he said, okay, you can go.

Then, uh, in October we went to Philadelphia, and that's where we had our staging. And of course, we had to go through all these psychological tests and there were more health things that were involved. And of course, I come across this ophthalmologist who does not want me to go because of my eyesight. And at the time I was wearing contact lenses. So I convinced him that I could wear ski goggles. I don't know. I don't ski. I have never been on skis, but I have seen people in ski gear. And I said, well, I can wear ski goggles. So he said.

[Assistant] The problem, the problem was that you had contact lenses?

[User] Right. And he was saying, well, it's dusty. And I said, I can wear ski goggles. So he said, get yourself a pair of ski goggles and you can go. So I had a few little bumps along the way, but then next thing I know, I'm on a plane headed to Nairobi, Kenya.

[Assistant] So you said there were 32 people in your group?

[User] I think it was around 32, but all of us were not cooperative volunteers. It was a mixed group. Some were music teachers and the rest of us were cooperative volunteers.

[Assistant] What did your family think about your going?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And he was saying, well, it's dusty. And I said, I can wear ski goggles. So he said, get yourself a pair of ski goggles and you can go. So I had a few little bumps along the way, but then next thing I know, I'm on a plane headed to Nairobi, Kenya.

[Assistant] So you said there were 32 people in your group?

[User] I think it was around 32, but all of us were not cooperative volunteers. It was a mixed group. Some were music teachers and the rest of us were cooperative volunteers.

[Assistant] What did your family think about your going?

[User] Well, um, the only person who really questioned me was my mother, when I spent that month in South Carolina with her. One of our favorite places to go was always the library. And in the library there's this big giant globe and you can sit there and it twirls around. So we're looking at where we are. And as the globe moved around, I said, well, that's where I'm going. And so she said, well, why do you want to do this? Why are you going so far away? And I said, well, I think one of the reasons I want to do this is because I believe that had you had the chance, you would have done it. Because my mother loved to travel. But of course, having ten children, she wasn't really able to do too much traveling so. But so she just smiled and that's it.

[Assistant] And that was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was around 32, but all of us were not cooperative volunteers. It was a mixed group. Some were music teachers and the rest of us were cooperative volunteers.

[Assistant] What did your family think about your going?

[User] Well, um, the only person who really questioned me was my mother, when I spent that month in South Carolina with her. One of our favorite places to go was always the library. And in the library there's this big giant globe and you can sit there and it twirls around. So we're looking at where we are. And as the globe moved around, I said, well, that's where I'm going. And so she said, well, why do you want to do this? Why are you going so far away? And I said, well, I think one of the reasons I want to do this is because I believe that had you had the chance, you would have done it. Because my mother loved to travel. But of course, having ten children, she wasn't really able to do too much traveling so. But so she just smiled and that's it.

[Assistant] And that was it?

[User] That was it.

[Assistant] And your friends were, were they surprised?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, um, the only person who really questioned me was my mother, when I spent that month in South Carolina with her. One of our favorite places to go was always the library. And in the library there's this big giant globe and you can sit there and it twirls around. So we're looking at where we are. And as the globe moved around, I said, well, that's where I'm going. And so she said, well, why do you want to do this? Why are you going so far away? And I said, well, I think one of the reasons I want to do this is because I believe that had you had the chance, you would have done it. Because my mother loved to travel. But of course, having ten children, she wasn't really able to do too much traveling so. But so she just smiled and that's it.

[Assistant] And that was it?

[User] That was it.

[Assistant] And your friends were, were they surprised?

[User] Not really. Not really. And one of my brothers did come visit me while I was in Kenya. The one in Oakland, he visited me while I was there.

[Assistant] And we can talk about that later on. So let me ask you about training. Were you the only African American in the group or were there others as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was it.

[Assistant] And your friends were, were they surprised?

[User] Not really. Not really. And one of my brothers did come visit me while I was in Kenya. The one in Oakland, he visited me while I was there.

[Assistant] And we can talk about that later on. So let me ask you about training. Were you the only African American in the group or were there others as well?

[User] There were three of us. One was a music teacher. And there were two females and one male. And the male was also a cooperative volunteer.

[Assistant] So by the sixties, I mean in the sixties, I think it was where we had one African American in our group. But you were there in the eighties, so it was a much more mixed group by that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were three of us. One was a music teacher. And there were two females and one male. And the male was also a cooperative volunteer.

[Assistant] So by the sixties, I mean in the sixties, I think it was where we had one African American in our group. But you were there in the eighties, so it was a much more mixed group by that time.

[User] But guess what? That was also one Chinese.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Yes, he was full blooded Chinese.

[Assistant] Born in the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was full blooded Chinese.

[Assistant] Born in the United States?

[User] I'm not sure where he was born, but he was educated in the United States. I believe his name was Jim Lee. So, you know, nobody really knew but.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But he was 100 percent Chinese.

[Assistant] Great. Good. So you got on the train, uh, train, on the plane in Philadelphia and flew directly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we did not, no. We did not board the plane in Philadelphia.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] We boarded a bus in Philadelphia that took us to JFK.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And then we flew from JFK to Germany. I'm trying to think of the name of the city in Germany. Frankfurt. We went to Frankfurt, Germany, and from, that was on TWA, and from Frankfurt we were there all day. Then we boarded a Kenya Airways flight from Germany to Nairobi.

[Assistant] So what happened when you got to Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we flew from JFK to Germany. I'm trying to think of the name of the city in Germany. Frankfurt. We went to Frankfurt, Germany, and from, that was on TWA, and from Frankfurt we were there all day. Then we boarded a Kenya Airways flight from Germany to Nairobi.

[Assistant] So what happened when you got to Nairobi?

[User] Well, they had told us several things to be cautious of. And one of the things that I didn't think was going to affect me because I felt like I was in good physical condition. They told us be prepared because you're leaving a very low altitude. When you land in Nairobi, you will be 5,000 feet above sea level.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And as I started walking, I was like, oh, wait a minute. I didn't, I didn't think it was going to affect me like that. But it did. But in a couple of days, you recuperated from it.

[Assistant] And you then did the training in Nairobi, in country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they had told us several things to be cautious of. And one of the things that I didn't think was going to affect me because I felt like I was in good physical condition. They told us be prepared because you're leaving a very low altitude. When you land in Nairobi, you will be 5,000 feet above sea level.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And as I started walking, I was like, oh, wait a minute. I didn't, I didn't think it was going to affect me like that. But it did. But in a couple of days, you recuperated from it.

[Assistant] And you then did the training in Nairobi, in country?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Where was the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Where was the training?

[User] We did some training, but it wasn't in Nairobi. I don't remember the name of the place in Kenya where the training was. But one thing that I do want to point out, when we were in Nairobi, we stayed in a hotel named Karen. And most people have seen this hotel. And the reason they've seen it is because it was featured in the movie Out of Africa.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I had to throw that little part in.

[Assistant] Had Out of Africa been filmed before that or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did some training, but it wasn't in Nairobi. I don't remember the name of the place in Kenya where the training was. But one thing that I do want to point out, when we were in Nairobi, we stayed in a hotel named Karen. And most people have seen this hotel. And the reason they've seen it is because it was featured in the movie Out of Africa.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I had to throw that little part in.

[Assistant] Had Out of Africa been filmed before that or?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, so, did you recognize that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I had to throw that little part in.

[Assistant] Had Out of Africa been filmed before that or?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, so, did you recognize that?

[User] I had not seen the movie. I'm not a big movie person, so I had not seen the movie.

[Assistant] Okay. So it must have been a pretty quaint looking place to be in a movie.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, so, did you recognize that?

[User] I had not seen the movie. I'm not a big movie person, so I had not seen the movie.

[Assistant] Okay. So it must have been a pretty quaint looking place to be in a movie.

[User] It was an interesting place. It was not well kept. The swimming pool had no water in it, and it, it was sufficient for us. But I would not say that it was a good place for tourists. Does it still exist? I don't know, because Nairobi is so different now.

[Assistant] I would guess. Right. I was in Nairobi in 1967.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had not seen the movie. I'm not a big movie person, so I had not seen the movie.

[Assistant] Okay. So it must have been a pretty quaint looking place to be in a movie.

[User] It was an interesting place. It was not well kept. The swimming pool had no water in it, and it, it was sufficient for us. But I would not say that it was a good place for tourists. Does it still exist? I don't know, because Nairobi is so different now.

[Assistant] I would guess. Right. I was in Nairobi in 1967.

[User] Ooh.

[Assistant] I bet it's changed a lot since then. So you, talk a little bit about the training you had in country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was an interesting place. It was not well kept. The swimming pool had no water in it, and it, it was sufficient for us. But I would not say that it was a good place for tourists. Does it still exist? I don't know, because Nairobi is so different now.

[Assistant] I would guess. Right. I was in Nairobi in 1967.

[User] Ooh.

[Assistant] I bet it's changed a lot since then. So you, talk a little bit about the training you had in country.

[User] Okay. Most of our training was done by host country nationals. We did cross-cultural training. Actually, we started cross- cultural training in Philadelphia. And then we continued on in country. And we also had language teachers. So we had in-country cross- cultural training for part of the day. And we also had Swahili training the rest of the day. And, uh, it was interesting. I don't know why this has come to me, but one of the instructors pointed out people who would not stay. They said they had worked with Peace Corps long enough and they were able to tell us specifically who was not going.

[Assistant] They actually told the group that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ooh.

[Assistant] I bet it's changed a lot since then. So you, talk a little bit about the training you had in country.

[User] Okay. Most of our training was done by host country nationals. We did cross-cultural training. Actually, we started cross- cultural training in Philadelphia. And then we continued on in country. And we also had language teachers. So we had in-country cross- cultural training for part of the day. And we also had Swahili training the rest of the day. And, uh, it was interesting. I don't know why this has come to me, but one of the instructors pointed out people who would not stay. They said they had worked with Peace Corps long enough and they were able to tell us specifically who was not going.

[Assistant] They actually told the group that?

[User] No. It was more or less private conversations that some of us had with some of the instructors, and they were 100 percent correct.

[Assistant] Interesting. What were the characteristics that they would mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Most of our training was done by host country nationals. We did cross-cultural training. Actually, we started cross- cultural training in Philadelphia. And then we continued on in country. And we also had language teachers. So we had in-country cross- cultural training for part of the day. And we also had Swahili training the rest of the day. And, uh, it was interesting. I don't know why this has come to me, but one of the instructors pointed out people who would not stay. They said they had worked with Peace Corps long enough and they were able to tell us specifically who was not going.

[Assistant] They actually told the group that?

[User] No. It was more or less private conversations that some of us had with some of the instructors, and they were 100 percent correct.

[Assistant] Interesting. What were the characteristics that they would mention?

[User] I don't remember what they said, but they just said she will not make it. He will not make it. She's going to leave early. And all these people left. But they said they had worked with Peace Corps long enough to know who was going to make it and who wasn't.

[Assistant] What was the cross-cultural training like? Did it prepare you for living in a village? Well, I don't know where you actually ended up living.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember what they said, but they just said she will not make it. He will not make it. She's going to leave early. And all these people left. But they said they had worked with Peace Corps long enough to know who was going to make it and who wasn't.

[Assistant] What was the cross-cultural training like? Did it prepare you for living in a village? Well, I don't know where you actually ended up living.

[User] Well, actually, I lived in a city.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User]
My assignment was with a wood carving co-operative in Mombasa, and I was a rather unique volunteer. And the reason I say that is because the volunteers who are in the co-operative program had to travel. Most of them were farm cooperatives, and they would have to travel from farm to farm. I unfortunately never learned how to ride a bicycle. They wanted to give me a motorcycle, but I could not master riding a motorcycle. So they had to find a position for me that did not require me to travel.

And actually my first assignment was with a women's co- operative in Kaimosi, which was up near Lake Turkana, uh, Lake Victoria. And unfortunately, things didn't work out there. So I, so I was only there for a few months. Then I ended up in Mombasa with a woodcarving co-operative. And those carvings that the men did were shipped all over the world. And I remember when I came home, I went to the Library of Congress and I went into the gift shop and I spotted an Akamba carving and I picked it up and I saw the sticker on the bottom, Akamba carving. And I said, oh, I probably put that sticker on that myself. But they were shipped all over the world.

[Assistant] So. Okay. So you didn't live in a, in a village. But just to go finish the questions about, about the training. Did you, what did you think about the training? Both the language training and the cross- cultural training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't even know. I don't even know how the conversation ended. I don't know where that man came from. That was, you know, because I met people all over the place and that was just the part of a conversation I really remember.

[Assistant] Having been a volunteer in Somalia and Mombasa having lots of Somalis, he may have been a Somali who were very bigoted against non Somalis or Negroid Africans. And maybe that's not a nice thing to say, but it was really true.

[User] Now that you mention that, he could have been Somali. And the reason I say that is because where I lived in Mombasa, most of the people who lived there were Somalis. So he could have been Somali.

[Assistant] So I think you were getting a little East African cultural issue built in here.

[User] I don't know.

[Assistant] Anyway, so you said you first went to Lake Victoria.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now that you mention that, he could have been Somali. And the reason I say that is because where I lived in Mombasa, most of the people who lived there were Somalis. So he could have been Somali.

[Assistant] So I think you were getting a little East African cultural issue built in here.

[User] I don't know.

[Assistant] Anyway, so you said you first went to Lake Victoria.

[User] This town, Kaimosi, it was near Lake Victoria.

[Assistant] And what kind of a cooperative was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I know during the time I was there, Peace Corps did not send another volunteer there because the APCD, he went there and he looked at the place and it was like, no.

[Assistant] But why was that?

[User] Once again, Peace Corps was doing their best to place me because I couldn't ride a motorcycle. So most of the cooperative positions involved farmers and they had to visit the farms and that just didn't fit for me.

[Assistant] So. So you ended up in Mombasa. Mombasa was a pretty big city at that point.

[User] Yes, it was the tourist capital for Kenya.

[Assistant] And talk about how you lived in Mombasa before we get to the co-op. What was that like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once again, Peace Corps was doing their best to place me because I couldn't ride a motorcycle. So most of the cooperative positions involved farmers and they had to visit the farms and that just didn't fit for me.

[Assistant] So. So you ended up in Mombasa. Mombasa was a pretty big city at that point.

[User] Yes, it was the tourist capital for Kenya.

[Assistant] And talk about how you lived in Mombasa before we get to the co-op. What was that like?

[User] Well, I had to find a house. So I found a house. And I had no furniture. And I, you know, it was easy for me to get a matatu from where I live to where I work. But unfortunately, someone broke into my house and stole most of my things. But the cooperative where I worked decided that they would give me an askari to watch my house at night. And the man was there at night and.

[Assistant] Askari meaning watchman?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so they would all run to me. And so we had a nice conversation. And one of the things I did with the children was that I had a world map on my wall. And so they would come over and we would talk about the world. But then I also had a map of Africa, and by the time I left, um, the little girl, I think she must have been maybe about eight years old at that point. If I would say something like Kinshasa, she'd go to the map. There it is.

[Assistant] Great.

[User] Yeah. So she learned most of the major cities and all the different countries all over Africa.

[Assistant] That's great. That's great. So did you become friends with the parents too, with the women too?

[User] I was unable to become friends with them because they spoke Somali. They did not speak very much Swahili and they spoke no English. I was uncomfortable speaking to their husband, who spoke Arabic, Swahili, English. I mean, he spoke so many different languages, and I think he spoke German as well, because they, there were a lot of German tourists that would come to Mombasa and you would go to restaurants and the menu would be in German. That's how many Germans would show up there. So I was not comfortable talking to him. So therefore.

[Assistant] You didn't want to become the third wife?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So she learned most of the major cities and all the different countries all over Africa.

[Assistant] That's great. That's great. So did you become friends with the parents too, with the women too?

[User] I was unable to become friends with them because they spoke Somali. They did not speak very much Swahili and they spoke no English. I was uncomfortable speaking to their husband, who spoke Arabic, Swahili, English. I mean, he spoke so many different languages, and I think he spoke German as well, because they, there were a lot of German tourists that would come to Mombasa and you would go to restaurants and the menu would be in German. That's how many Germans would show up there. So I was not comfortable talking to him. So therefore.

[Assistant] You didn't want to become the third wife?

[User] There was no way I was going to become the third wife. No.

[Assistant] You never know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was unable to become friends with them because they spoke Somali. They did not speak very much Swahili and they spoke no English. I was uncomfortable speaking to their husband, who spoke Arabic, Swahili, English. I mean, he spoke so many different languages, and I think he spoke German as well, because they, there were a lot of German tourists that would come to Mombasa and you would go to restaurants and the menu would be in German. That's how many Germans would show up there. So I was not comfortable talking to him. So therefore.

[Assistant] You didn't want to become the third wife?

[User] There was no way I was going to become the third wife. No.

[Assistant] You never know.

[User] Well, some of the men where I worked, they asked me. They said, well, why don't you stay here and marry a Kenyan? And I said, no, I can't do that. And they said, well, why not? I said, well, because you can have more than one wife. And they said yeah. I said, well, why is that? Said, well, a man wants to know who his children are. I said, well, why can't I have more than one husband? And they said, oh no, women don't have more than one husband. I said, well, why is that? This is because a man wants to know who his children are. And I said, well, even if you're married, if I'm married to one man, that doesn't mean that those children are yours. So, you know, we would laugh and have fun like that.

[Assistant] So then you were safe in that apartment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, some of the men where I worked, they asked me. They said, well, why don't you stay here and marry a Kenyan? And I said, no, I can't do that. And they said, well, why not? I said, well, because you can have more than one wife. And they said yeah. I said, well, why is that? Said, well, a man wants to know who his children are. I said, well, why can't I have more than one husband? And they said, oh no, women don't have more than one husband. I said, well, why is that? This is because a man wants to know who his children are. And I said, well, even if you're married, if I'm married to one man, that doesn't mean that those children are yours. So, you know, we would laugh and have fun like that.

[Assistant] So then you were safe in that apartment.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] No more.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] No more break ins.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] No more.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] No more break ins.

[User] No more break ins.

[Assistant] And did you need a guard?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] No more break ins.

[User] No more break ins.

[Assistant] And did you need a guard?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] It was just.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No more break ins.

[Assistant] And did you need a guard?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] It was just.

[User] No, I was, I was comfortable. I felt comfortable. I was safe and everything.

[Assistant] Well, so. So this co-op, how many men worked in the co- op?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I don't think I've ever known that number, but I would say.

[Assistant] A lot?

[User] I would say at least 200.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] It was a large co-op. Yes.

[Assistant] And what was, what was your role?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a large co-op. Yes.

[Assistant] And what was, what was your role?

[User] I was a business adviser. And one of the things, as I told you, the woodcarvings that they did were shipped all over the world. So one of the things I did was set up a program whereby we would have form letters to send to these places to request the money, because a lot of times they were not being paid. And one of the reasons they weren't being paid was because they weren't asking for the money. And once I started sending out these letters saying you owe X number of shillings, the money started coming in. So in.

[Assistant] Little detail.

[User] Right. And then another thing was that they had built a new showroom. As I said earlier, I'm not an artist, but I helped set up the showroom and it was a place where, um, the tourists would come and the tour guides would bring tourists there. And what I found out was that I had to, we had to get the money together really quick when the tourists would come in and buy items, because in order to keep the tour guides to keep coming there, we had to give them a little gratuity.

[Assistant] Which I think happens throughout the world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a business adviser. And one of the things, as I told you, the woodcarvings that they did were shipped all over the world. So one of the things I did was set up a program whereby we would have form letters to send to these places to request the money, because a lot of times they were not being paid. And one of the reasons they weren't being paid was because they weren't asking for the money. And once I started sending out these letters saying you owe X number of shillings, the money started coming in. So in.

[Assistant] Little detail.

[User] Right. And then another thing was that they had built a new showroom. As I said earlier, I'm not an artist, but I helped set up the showroom and it was a place where, um, the tourists would come and the tour guides would bring tourists there. And what I found out was that I had to, we had to get the money together really quick when the tourists would come in and buy items, because in order to keep the tour guides to keep coming there, we had to give them a little gratuity.

[Assistant] Which I think happens throughout the world.

[User] Yes. Yes. And if they didn't get the gratuity, what one of the tour guides told me was that they would not stop coming there, but they would tell the people, don't buy anything. Yeah.

[Assistant] So were there other, were there other cooperatives where they, the tour guides could have taken people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And then another thing was that they had built a new showroom. As I said earlier, I'm not an artist, but I helped set up the showroom and it was a place where, um, the tourists would come and the tour guides would bring tourists there. And what I found out was that I had to, we had to get the money together really quick when the tourists would come in and buy items, because in order to keep the tour guides to keep coming there, we had to give them a little gratuity.

[Assistant] Which I think happens throughout the world.

[User] Yes. Yes. And if they didn't get the gratuity, what one of the tour guides told me was that they would not stop coming there, but they would tell the people, don't buy anything. Yeah.

[Assistant] So were there other, were there other cooperatives where they, the tour guides could have taken people?

[User] Oh, there were but, um. And plus, you could buy these items on the streets in Mombasa and the co-op didn't really get anything from that, although a lot of the men who were on the streets in Mombasa were members of that co-op.

[Assistant] So did they do their own carving and then just sell it in the street? Is that it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. And if they didn't get the gratuity, what one of the tour guides told me was that they would not stop coming there, but they would tell the people, don't buy anything. Yeah.

[Assistant] So were there other, were there other cooperatives where they, the tour guides could have taken people?

[User] Oh, there were but, um. And plus, you could buy these items on the streets in Mombasa and the co-op didn't really get anything from that, although a lot of the men who were on the streets in Mombasa were members of that co-op.

[Assistant] So did they do their own carving and then just sell it in the street? Is that it?

[User] Yes, that's what they would do. But they would more than likely do the carvings there and then they would put some in the showroom because each member had a number. So when something was sold, the cashiers in the showroom would write down the member's number and how much it sold for, so they would get part of the profit.

[Assistant] So this was maccambe art?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Akamba.

[Assistant] Akamba. Akamba.

[User] Yes. A-K-A-M-B-A.

[Assistant] A-K.

[User] A-M-B-A.

[Assistant] How much did things get sold for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. A-K-A-M-B-A.

[Assistant] A-K.

[User] A-M-B-A.

[Assistant] How much did things get sold for?

[User] There were various prices. They were, uh, you know, it all depended on what it was that you were buying. I can't really remember the prices, but they varied because some, some were very small. Maybe it was an elephant. And then you might have a very tall giraffe. So the prices were going to vary.

[Assistant] Varied. So you helped them with their billing and, uh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A-M-B-A.

[Assistant] How much did things get sold for?

[User] There were various prices. They were, uh, you know, it all depended on what it was that you were buying. I can't really remember the prices, but they varied because some, some were very small. Maybe it was an elephant. And then you might have a very tall giraffe. So the prices were going to vary.

[Assistant] Varied. So you helped them with their billing and, uh.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were there other things that you were involved with as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were various prices. They were, uh, you know, it all depended on what it was that you were buying. I can't really remember the prices, but they varied because some, some were very small. Maybe it was an elephant. And then you might have a very tall giraffe. So the prices were going to vary.

[Assistant] Varied. So you helped them with their billing and, uh.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were there other things that you were involved with as well?

[User] Just making sure that they had, um, you know, that the people in the showroom were prepared and they had paper to wrap up things. So it was just a little bit of doing everything. It was kind of like an office manager, so to speak.

[Assistant] Had any Peace Corps been there before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just making sure that they had, um, you know, that the people in the showroom were prepared and they had paper to wrap up things. So it was just a little bit of doing everything. It was kind of like an office manager, so to speak.

[Assistant] Had any Peace Corps been there before?

[User] No, not to my knowledge. But there was someone behind me.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] Actually, I met the guy. Years later, I met him.

[Assistant] What did you do in your spare time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, everybody's English was that good. And because most of the classes at the schools were taught in English and they spoke Swahili at home. And then one day I met a man who asked me if I had done any acting, and I said no. And so he said, well, would you like to do some acting? I know this group that is looking for some actors. And so I said, oh, okay. So he asked me to meet him downtown on Moi Avenue, which is the main street. I don't know if you've seen pictures of Mombasa, but they have. One of the main pictures is these big, huge elephant tusks that cross the street like that. Anyway, so I said, okay, I'll meet you there. So then he said, well, the place is right around the corner. And I walked around the corner and there's this sign. Voice of Kenya. I'm like, what?

Because that's the national, that was the national television station, radio station. Everything was the Voice of Kenya. And so I went in and the woman talked to me. And so she told me about this, um, it's kind of like a soap opera that they were doing on Kenyan television. And I said, okay. So it was kind of like a part written for me, because it was about this Kenyan man who was married to a Black American. So I'm like, oh, okay. Well, it fits me. So I did a few episodes of that. And it was interesting because even in Nairobi, I was walking down the street one day and someone said, didn't I see you on television last night? And I really didn't know how to respond because.

[Assistant] That's so funny.

[User] I had never been in that kind of a situation before.

[Assistant] You became a Kenyan TV star.

[User] Uh, somewhat. Somewhat.

[Assistant] Sounds like lots of fun.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had never been in that kind of a situation before.

[Assistant] You became a Kenyan TV star.

[User] Uh, somewhat. Somewhat.

[Assistant] Sounds like lots of fun.

[User] It was. It was. It was.

[Assistant] What did Peace Corps think about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, somewhat. Somewhat.

[Assistant] Sounds like lots of fun.

[User] It was. It was. It was.

[Assistant] What did Peace Corps think about that?

[User] Well, Peace Corps didn't really have anything to say. The only thing they had to say was that if you did anything outside of your job, you could not be paid for it. And if you were paid for it, the money was to go to whatever organization you worked for. And to this day, I have not been paid. I was going to give the money to the cooperative where I was working, and unfortunately, they never got their money because I never got anything.

[Assistant] That sounds good. But you taught them how to bill for their sculpture. You should have learned how to do that for yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was. It was.

[Assistant] What did Peace Corps think about that?

[User] Well, Peace Corps didn't really have anything to say. The only thing they had to say was that if you did anything outside of your job, you could not be paid for it. And if you were paid for it, the money was to go to whatever organization you worked for. And to this day, I have not been paid. I was going to give the money to the cooperative where I was working, and unfortunately, they never got their money because I never got anything.

[Assistant] That sounds good. But you taught them how to bill for their sculpture. You should have learned how to do that for yourself.

[User] Yeah. Oh, you know, back to Kaimosi when I was there.

[Assistant] Kaimosi is what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Oh, you know, back to Kaimosi when I was there.

[Assistant] Kaimosi is what?

[User] That's where that women's co-operative was.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] I didn't, um. I didn't really have a lot of work to do. And I met a woman who, there was like a school nearby. It was kind of like a junior college. And so she asked me if I would teach a business course. So I said yes. And so of course I had no paper, I had no materials whatsoever. I did have paper and a pen. So what I would do is write out questions and exercises for the students. But I had to write it like five or six times because I had no way to reproduce anything. So I did that for a while until, you know, until I left. So that was all gratis work.

[Assistant] Were there other Peace Corps volunteers in Mombasa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's where that women's co-operative was.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] I didn't, um. I didn't really have a lot of work to do. And I met a woman who, there was like a school nearby. It was kind of like a junior college. And so she asked me if I would teach a business course. So I said yes. And so of course I had no paper, I had no materials whatsoever. I did have paper and a pen. So what I would do is write out questions and exercises for the students. But I had to write it like five or six times because I had no way to reproduce anything. So I did that for a while until, you know, until I left. So that was all gratis work.

[Assistant] Were there other Peace Corps volunteers in Mombasa?

[User] Oh, no, wait a minute. Now, that was Kaimosi.

[Assistant] That was Kaimosi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, wait a minute. Now, that was Kaimosi.

[Assistant] That was Kaimosi.

[User] There was another volunteer there. She was a music teacher.

[Assistant] In Kaimosi?

[User] In Kaimosi, yeah. Yes, she was, she was a music teacher. So I don't know what it was like when you were in Somalia, but in Kenya they didn't like for the volunteers to be too close together because they wanted us, because they felt like if we were too close together, we would gravitate to each other and not reach out to the wider community.

[Assistant] Yeah. So but were there are others in Mombasa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was another volunteer there. She was a music teacher.

[Assistant] In Kaimosi?

[User] In Kaimosi, yeah. Yes, she was, she was a music teacher. So I don't know what it was like when you were in Somalia, but in Kenya they didn't like for the volunteers to be too close together because they wanted us, because they felt like if we were too close together, we would gravitate to each other and not reach out to the wider community.

[Assistant] Yeah. So but were there are others in Mombasa?

[User] Um, I think. They weren't in the city of Mombasa, but they were close by.

[Assistant] But you didn't really interact with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Kaimosi, yeah. Yes, she was, she was a music teacher. So I don't know what it was like when you were in Somalia, but in Kenya they didn't like for the volunteers to be too close together because they wanted us, because they felt like if we were too close together, we would gravitate to each other and not reach out to the wider community.

[Assistant] Yeah. So but were there are others in Mombasa?

[User] Um, I think. They weren't in the city of Mombasa, but they were close by.

[Assistant] But you didn't really interact with them?

[User] I didn't really interact with them because that was one I know he was nearby because, uh, he came to my site of. Peace Corps had asked him to accompany the ambassador to Kenya. He went to a lot of the different sites. So he was the person who was chosen to accompany the ambassador to different sites within the Mombasa area. So there were others there, but we just didn't interact with each other.

[Assistant] What did you do while you were on vacation? Were there vacations? Did you travel in Kenya? Did you travel in East Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I think. They weren't in the city of Mombasa, but they were close by.

[Assistant] But you didn't really interact with them?

[User] I didn't really interact with them because that was one I know he was nearby because, uh, he came to my site of. Peace Corps had asked him to accompany the ambassador to Kenya. He went to a lot of the different sites. So he was the person who was chosen to accompany the ambassador to different sites within the Mombasa area. So there were others there, but we just didn't interact with each other.

[Assistant] What did you do while you were on vacation? Were there vacations? Did you travel in Kenya? Did you travel in East Africa?

[User] I did. Um. As you know, I was a little older, so. I probably shouldn't say this, but I didn't adhere to all the rules. But I'm the type of person who looks at the rules and then says, I don't think I really have to follow this. And then I look at the rules and I say, oh, I think I better follow this one. So one of the rules was, your first year there you were to stay in country for your vacation. I didn't do that. I went to Nairobi and asked for my passport.

[Assistant] Oh, they kept it in Nairobi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So I said, look, there's nothing I can do. I said, so you might as well just get dressed. We're going down to the Intercontinental Hotel and get on the bus and go on the safari where we stayed overnight at different places. So when we got on the bus, we're sitting there and I'm listening to people who are getting on the bus who had stayed at the Intercontinental. The Intercontinental Hotel charged just as much as a hotel here in United States would charge. So I said to my brother, hmm, would you have preferred to pay maybe 100 times more and stay at the Intercontinental? These people didn't have any water. At least we had water.

So, you know, then we went on the safari and we stayed overnight. There was one place that was, um, we stayed at different hotels because there was one where you had these underground, it looked kind of like an underground place. But you had, because we couldn't go outside, and they had these places built underground that had windows. So you could go in there and you could look out at the animals as they came, because it was all about the animals. And so therefore, you could not go out on your own.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And even when you were in the vehicles. One place we stayed, we had to stay, we stayed in a tent. There was a hotel, but they chose to put us in a tent. And it was really nice tent because those are not for camping. And the tent, we had to unzip it. There was a floor on the other side. You unzip it and there was a nice bathroom. But in order to get from the hotel where we had our meals, we had to be driven even though it was walking distance and there was always someone riding shotgun, just in case.

[Assistant] Because of the animals?

[User] The animals, right. So they did not want us to be attacked by the animals.

[Assistant] So that was a really good experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And even when you were in the vehicles. One place we stayed, we had to stay, we stayed in a tent. There was a hotel, but they chose to put us in a tent. And it was really nice tent because those are not for camping. And the tent, we had to unzip it. There was a floor on the other side. You unzip it and there was a nice bathroom. But in order to get from the hotel where we had our meals, we had to be driven even though it was walking distance and there was always someone riding shotgun, just in case.

[Assistant] Because of the animals?

[User] The animals, right. So they did not want us to be attacked by the animals.

[Assistant] So that was a really good experience.

[User] It was. It was.

[Assistant] Did your brother enjoy that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was.

[Assistant] Did your brother enjoy that?

[User] He did. He did. But after the safari, we went to Mombasa so he could see where I lived. And his comment was, why are you living like this? You don't have to live like this. And I said, well, I think it's a pretty nice place. I said, you know, I didn't expect to live like I live in the United States. I said, this is perfectly fine for me. He said, no, I can't deal with this. So he left early.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I had to go back to Nairobi with him and he caught a flight and left.

[Assistant] And did he have any regrets later on or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He did. He did. But after the safari, we went to Mombasa so he could see where I lived. And his comment was, why are you living like this? You don't have to live like this. And I said, well, I think it's a pretty nice place. I said, you know, I didn't expect to live like I live in the United States. I said, this is perfectly fine for me. He said, no, I can't deal with this. So he left early.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] I had to go back to Nairobi with him and he caught a flight and left.

[Assistant] And did he have any regrets later on or?

[User] I don't think so. But he was like some of the people who, you may have had some in your group. They wanted everything to be just like home. And I said, well, if I want things to be like home.

[Assistant] I wouldn't come here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. But he was like some of the people who, you may have had some in your group. They wanted everything to be just like home. And I said, well, if I want things to be like home.

[Assistant] I wouldn't come here.

[User] I'd stay at home. You know, I don't need to leave home to experience the same thing that I experience at home.

[Assistant] Exactly.

[User] And I mean, even when I was in Kenya, I did something that I don't do very often here. I went to the movies a couple of times in Nairobi. I, I can almost count the number of movies I've been to in a movie theater here in Washington in the last ten years. And I could count them on one hand and have fingers left over. So, you know, I just wanted to do things that.

[Assistant] Other people were doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd stay at home. You know, I don't need to leave home to experience the same thing that I experience at home.

[Assistant] Exactly.

[User] And I mean, even when I was in Kenya, I did something that I don't do very often here. I went to the movies a couple of times in Nairobi. I, I can almost count the number of movies I've been to in a movie theater here in Washington in the last ten years. And I could count them on one hand and have fingers left over. So, you know, I just wanted to do things that.

[Assistant] Other people were doing.

[User] Well, you know, as long as I was going with a Kenyan, you know, I was okay.

[Assistant] Have you stayed in touch with any of the Kenyans that you knew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I mean, even when I was in Kenya, I did something that I don't do very often here. I went to the movies a couple of times in Nairobi. I, I can almost count the number of movies I've been to in a movie theater here in Washington in the last ten years. And I could count them on one hand and have fingers left over. So, you know, I just wanted to do things that.

[Assistant] Other people were doing.

[User] Well, you know, as long as I was going with a Kenyan, you know, I was okay.

[Assistant] Have you stayed in touch with any of the Kenyans that you knew?

[User] We stayed in touch for about ten years and then after that, it just kind of faded off.

[Assistant] Well, I cut you. So your brother came halfway and then you continued working in this co-op?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We stayed in touch for about ten years and then after that, it just kind of faded off.

[Assistant] Well, I cut you. So your brother came halfway and then you continued working in this co-op?

[User] Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. I was like, oh no, I'm not going to leave. No, there's no way. And plus, when he came, he came during my second year. I must have had maybe about four or five months left.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So there was no way I was leaving. And I extended an extra month because I was afraid of coming home in the winter.

[Assistant] Ah. So you finished your tour and then what? What happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, to Senegal.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] It was quite different. And I look at the pictures that I took when I was there in '83, and then I look at the way it looks now. Completely different.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Completely. The only thing that was disheartening to me about Senegal was that they had these streets, the sidewalks that have these beautiful tiles in the sidewalk, and they just haven't been maintained. You can still see the beauty that is there. It just needs to be brought back to life.

[Assistant] Yeah, just hasn't been.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was quite different. And I look at the pictures that I took when I was there in '83, and then I look at the way it looks now. Completely different.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Completely. The only thing that was disheartening to me about Senegal was that they had these streets, the sidewalks that have these beautiful tiles in the sidewalk, and they just haven't been maintained. You can still see the beauty that is there. It just needs to be brought back to life.

[Assistant] Yeah, just hasn't been.

[User] But I was with a tour group when I went in 2013 and, um. I don't know if things have changed there or if I changed or if it's a combination. Because we weren't allowed to, in Dakar, we were not allowed. Well, I shouldn't say we weren't allowed. I should say we were encouraged not to leave the hotel unless we were on that bus. And even though I was on the bus and I'm looking around and I'm like, would I be comfortable walking these streets alone? Because in '83 I had no problems walking those streets alone. I went wherever I wanted to go. So I don't know if the city changed, if I changed, or if it was a combination.

[Assistant] It's probably the same thing in Kenya or other places you've been.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It might be. I just remember that I did leave Senegal in '83 before I was, I wanted to leave. And the main reason I left was because I kind of lost my temper on the street. This man walked up to me and he said, hey sister. I said, yeah? You're an American, aren't you? And I said yes. He said, he got close to me, he said, you want something? And I said, what? He said, you want to buy something? I said, wait a minute. Look, you might think all Americans deal with drugs. I don't do drugs. He's like, calm down. I said, no, look, I don't do drugs, but I know the best hashish in the world comes out of Morocco, and I was just there. If I had wanted something like that, I would have gotten it in Morocco.

And he was like, calm down, calm down. I said, no, you're going to walk up to me and you're going to insult me like that and you think I'm supposed to just take it? I said, uh uh, no, it's not going to work that way. And so he said, oh okay, calm down, calm down. And he ran away. And so I turned around. TWA office is right down the street here. So I went to the TWA office. When can I get a flight to New York? And that was when I left.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] But other than that, I was happy. I was enjoying myself, just relaxing and just seeing the scenery. And I was. To this day, I kind of regret that I lost my temper.

[Assistant] Yeah, well.

[User] But I had just.

[Assistant] It was also probably part of traveling by yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I had just.

[Assistant] It was also probably part of traveling by yourself.

[User] Yes. Yes. Because I'd been through all those Arab countries and I hadn't had any problems.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] The only one that I kind of incurred, incurred a problem was in Egypt. And that's the reason John and I were together, because I knew not to go to Egypt alone. And men would make passes and I was like, this is my husband. I don't see a ring on your finger. I'm like, what in the world? And I had never been approached like that. And even though they were crazy, I still went on to Tunisia and Morocco and all those places by myself. And I didn't have any problems. The only thing, um, in Casablanca, I realized that I was trying to do something that I wasn't supposed to do. And it was, it seems like such a harmless thing. I wanted to get something to eat. And they had these outside cafes, so I wanted to sit outside on the sidewalk and have lunch. And people started looking at me and I realized, oh, men only. So I said, okay, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[Assistant] Well, things are different now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Because I'd been through all those Arab countries and I hadn't had any problems.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] The only one that I kind of incurred, incurred a problem was in Egypt. And that's the reason John and I were together, because I knew not to go to Egypt alone. And men would make passes and I was like, this is my husband. I don't see a ring on your finger. I'm like, what in the world? And I had never been approached like that. And even though they were crazy, I still went on to Tunisia and Morocco and all those places by myself. And I didn't have any problems. The only thing, um, in Casablanca, I realized that I was trying to do something that I wasn't supposed to do. And it was, it seems like such a harmless thing. I wanted to get something to eat. And they had these outside cafes, so I wanted to sit outside on the sidewalk and have lunch. And people started looking at me and I realized, oh, men only. So I said, okay, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[Assistant] Well, things are different now.

[User] Oh, okay.

[Assistant] I just came back from Morocco.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only one that I kind of incurred, incurred a problem was in Egypt. And that's the reason John and I were together, because I knew not to go to Egypt alone. And men would make passes and I was like, this is my husband. I don't see a ring on your finger. I'm like, what in the world? And I had never been approached like that. And even though they were crazy, I still went on to Tunisia and Morocco and all those places by myself. And I didn't have any problems. The only thing, um, in Casablanca, I realized that I was trying to do something that I wasn't supposed to do. And it was, it seems like such a harmless thing. I wanted to get something to eat. And they had these outside cafes, so I wanted to sit outside on the sidewalk and have lunch. And people started looking at me and I realized, oh, men only. So I said, okay, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[Assistant] Well, things are different now.

[User] Oh, okay.

[Assistant] I just came back from Morocco.

[User] But that was the one thing I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Things are quite different. And where did you come back to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, okay.

[Assistant] I just came back from Morocco.

[User] But that was the one thing I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Things are quite different. And where did you come back to?

[User] Well, uh, you know, I said I was trying to avoid the winter in the United States. Well, it was in February. We landed at JFK. First of all, the flight from Dakar was delayed because JFK was closed. And when we came in, we were the first flight in in three days.

[Assistant] Because of snow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that was the one thing I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Things are quite different. And where did you come back to?

[User] Well, uh, you know, I said I was trying to avoid the winter in the United States. Well, it was in February. We landed at JFK. First of all, the flight from Dakar was delayed because JFK was closed. And when we came in, we were the first flight in in three days.

[Assistant] Because of snow?

[User] Because of snow. And I had a friend in New Jersey and I had sent him a telegram telling him that I was coming in to JFK and to meet me at the airport. Well, when I got to the airport, he was not there. So I called him and he said, the reason I'm not there is because I kept calling the airline and they couldn't tell me where your plane was going. They, at one point, they said it was going to Boston. He said, so I'm on my way. So he came to the airport and met me and he had a shopping bag. I'm like, oh, that's a nice shopping bag. So he opens up the shopping bag and he has one of his coats and a hat and a scarf. He said, I didn't know what kind of clothes you would have, but with all the snow and everything, I know you need proper clothes. So I was like, okay. Coat was too big and everything. And I'm like, I'm glad. Because all I had was a little thin leather coat.

[Assistant] So that was kind of hard reentry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, uh, you know, I said I was trying to avoid the winter in the United States. Well, it was in February. We landed at JFK. First of all, the flight from Dakar was delayed because JFK was closed. And when we came in, we were the first flight in in three days.

[Assistant] Because of snow?

[User] Because of snow. And I had a friend in New Jersey and I had sent him a telegram telling him that I was coming in to JFK and to meet me at the airport. Well, when I got to the airport, he was not there. So I called him and he said, the reason I'm not there is because I kept calling the airline and they couldn't tell me where your plane was going. They, at one point, they said it was going to Boston. He said, so I'm on my way. So he came to the airport and met me and he had a shopping bag. I'm like, oh, that's a nice shopping bag. So he opens up the shopping bag and he has one of his coats and a hat and a scarf. He said, I didn't know what kind of clothes you would have, but with all the snow and everything, I know you need proper clothes. So I was like, okay. Coat was too big and everything. And I'm like, I'm glad. Because all I had was a little thin leather coat.

[Assistant] So that was kind of hard reentry.

[User] Uh, yes.

[Assistant] Was it hard reentering culturally as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because of snow. And I had a friend in New Jersey and I had sent him a telegram telling him that I was coming in to JFK and to meet me at the airport. Well, when I got to the airport, he was not there. So I called him and he said, the reason I'm not there is because I kept calling the airline and they couldn't tell me where your plane was going. They, at one point, they said it was going to Boston. He said, so I'm on my way. So he came to the airport and met me and he had a shopping bag. I'm like, oh, that's a nice shopping bag. So he opens up the shopping bag and he has one of his coats and a hat and a scarf. He said, I didn't know what kind of clothes you would have, but with all the snow and everything, I know you need proper clothes. So I was like, okay. Coat was too big and everything. And I'm like, I'm glad. Because all I had was a little thin leather coat.

[Assistant] So that was kind of hard reentry.

[User] Uh, yes.

[Assistant] Was it hard reentering culturally as well?

[User] Um, I don't, I didn't think so. The one thing, because Peace Corps had given us these readjustment sessions before we left, I was prepared. Because they said, you know, you're going to go home and you've had this great experience and you're going to want to talk about it and nobody is going to want to hear it. So. And that was exactly the way it was. You know, they want to hear 2 minutes and that was it. They didn't want to hear anything else.

[Assistant] That was true of your family as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I don't, I didn't think so. The one thing, because Peace Corps had given us these readjustment sessions before we left, I was prepared. Because they said, you know, you're going to go home and you've had this great experience and you're going to want to talk about it and nobody is going to want to hear it. So. And that was exactly the way it was. You know, they want to hear 2 minutes and that was it. They didn't want to hear anything else.

[Assistant] That was true of your family as well?

[User] No, not of my family. They were more interested. But I remember a year later, a friend, a woman that I know who lives here in Washington, she had come home and, um. She was telling me how people were saying how bad she looked. So I told my mother about it. And so she said, well, you know, you weren't looking so good. I said, oh, what was wrong? She said, well, first of all, you had lost a lot of weight. And she said, it was just something about your skin. It just didn't look right.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] But then, you know, I guess after staying in that bright sunshine and all of that, because sometimes I would get tired of all the heat and everything and I would get on the train and go to, or go to Nairobi. And, you know, during the rainy season, you get off the train, because it was an overnight trip. So around 9:00 or 10:00 in the morning, you're arriving in Nairobi and it's like 35 degrees. But by lunchtime, you know, a couple of hours later, it's in the seventies. But it was always refreshing to me to get off that train and feel that cool air. Yes, it was. That was the good part.

[Assistant] So where did you end up living coming back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not of my family. They were more interested. But I remember a year later, a friend, a woman that I know who lives here in Washington, she had come home and, um. She was telling me how people were saying how bad she looked. So I told my mother about it. And so she said, well, you know, you weren't looking so good. I said, oh, what was wrong? She said, well, first of all, you had lost a lot of weight. And she said, it was just something about your skin. It just didn't look right.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] But then, you know, I guess after staying in that bright sunshine and all of that, because sometimes I would get tired of all the heat and everything and I would get on the train and go to, or go to Nairobi. And, you know, during the rainy season, you get off the train, because it was an overnight trip. So around 9:00 or 10:00 in the morning, you're arriving in Nairobi and it's like 35 degrees. But by lunchtime, you know, a couple of hours later, it's in the seventies. But it was always refreshing to me to get off that train and feel that cool air. Yes, it was. That was the good part.

[Assistant] So where did you end up living coming back?

[User] Well, when I came back, I ended up here in Washington because of the noncompetitive eligibility for federal employment.

[Assistant] And where did you end up working? What federal agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when I came back, I ended up here in Washington because of the noncompetitive eligibility for federal employment.

[Assistant] And where did you end up working? What federal agency?

[User]
Okay, well. The first federal agency was the Office of Human, the Office of Personnel Management. And it was really funny how I got the job because I don't remember what position I applied for. I don't know what agency I applied, where the, what agency the job was. But I remember I had to send my application to Philadelphia. And on a Friday night this man, Carlos Esparza, called me on a Friday night and he said, you sent your application to Philadelphia for X, Y, Z position. I said, yes I did. He said, well, the person who got your application did not think that you were a fit for that position. And he said, I used to work in Philadelphia. I've only been in Washington a couple of months. So they called me and told me about you.

Now, this man is an SES. He's in the senior executive service. He's calling me on a Friday night. And so he said, so would you be interested in a job here at the Office of Personnel Management? And I said, well, yes. So I still remember, he said, here's a telephone number. Monday morning called Dot Mustard. That was her name, Dot Mustard. And he said, talk to her and she'll tell you where to go from there.

[Assistant] So that's where you ended up working?

[User] That's where I ended up working my first federal job. I was, I mean, it seemed like the stars just lined up for me.

[Assistant] So it was really easy transition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, actually, I was working some, I was working for a union, Local 639 in Northeast. I had been doing temporary work, and then finally this place hired me permanently, but I was still looking because it was a secretarial position and that wasn't what I wanted. And so things just lined up. I started December 31st, 1983. And Carlos Esparza had hired some other people who were in, who had noncompetitive eligibility. And he said that the reason he wanted us to start on December 31st, 1983, was because they were changing the retirement system. He said, and this way you will have a choice to stay with the old system or to move to the new system, just by starting one day in 2008, in 1983. Yeah.

[Assistant] Good. Good. So did you continue your career in the federal government after that?

[User] Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And let's see, I worked. Office of Personnel Management. Peace Corps. Office of Personnel Management. Department of Agriculture, two different agencies at Department of Agriculture. Then I went to the Department of Energy. The Export-Import Bank.

[Assistant] My goodness.

[User] And my last 13 years were with the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. It took me almost full circle because when I came back from Peace Corps, I was working with the union. So what does Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service do? They work with unions, although I wasn't working with the union, but still it helps to know something about unions, even though I was in Human Resources.

[Assistant] Great. So have you stayed in touch with Peace Corps at all in your activities? I know I met you that way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And let's see, I worked. Office of Personnel Management. Peace Corps. Office of Personnel Management. Department of Agriculture, two different agencies at Department of Agriculture. Then I went to the Department of Energy. The Export-Import Bank.

[Assistant] My goodness.

[User] And my last 13 years were with the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. It took me almost full circle because when I came back from Peace Corps, I was working with the union. So what does Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service do? They work with unions, although I wasn't working with the union, but still it helps to know something about unions, even though I was in Human Resources.

[Assistant] Great. So have you stayed in touch with Peace Corps at all in your activities? I know I met you that way.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So this is a, I'm just asking it for the interview. How have you stayed involved with Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my last 13 years were with the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. It took me almost full circle because when I came back from Peace Corps, I was working with the union. So what does Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service do? They work with unions, although I wasn't working with the union, but still it helps to know something about unions, even though I was in Human Resources.

[Assistant] Great. So have you stayed in touch with Peace Corps at all in your activities? I know I met you that way.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So this is a, I'm just asking it for the interview. How have you stayed involved with Peace Corps?

[User]
Well, at one point I would go to, when I first came back, I would go to a lot of the happy hours and meet people and find out what was going on. And one of the people that I met, and I cannot remember his name, but anyway, he was a financial adviser with Legg Mason, who no longer exist. But anyway, I remember him giving his presentation and I was like, wow, that's something I think I might be interested in. So he said, um, he was not asking for our names and telephone numbers. He said, if you want any further information, you can pick up my card on the way out and contact me. So I went home and I told my husband about it. And so he said, well, maybe we should put some money in this.

And so that was how we started investing. And that was through a Peace Corps volunteer. Yes, a returned Peace Corps volunteer. And one of the things I enjoy doing is being an advocate for Peace Corps on Capitol Hill. Unfortunately, this year I couldn't do it because of the, because of jury duty. But I've done it several times. And that's one of the things I always look forward to.

[Assistant] Have you been involved in? So that's what you've been doing. Have you stayed involved in the Washington D.C. Peace Corps group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, at one point I would go to, when I first came back, I would go to a lot of the happy hours and meet people and find out what was going on. And one of the people that I met, and I cannot remember his name, but anyway, he was a financial adviser with Legg Mason, who no longer exist. But anyway, I remember him giving his presentation and I was like, wow, that's something I think I might be interested in. So he said, um, he was not asking for our names and telephone numbers. He said, if you want any further information, you can pick up my card on the way out and contact me. So I went home and I told my husband about it. And so he said, well, maybe we should put some money in this.

And so that was how we started investing. And that was through a Peace Corps volunteer. Yes, a returned Peace Corps volunteer. And one of the things I enjoy doing is being an advocate for Peace Corps on Capitol Hill. Unfortunately, this year I couldn't do it because of the, because of jury duty. But I've done it several times. And that's one of the things I always look forward to.

[Assistant] Have you been involved in? So that's what you've been doing. Have you stayed involved in the Washington D.C. Peace Corps group?

[User] Not lately. It seemed like after I got a little older and the people coming in kept getting younger and younger, it just felt like I didn't really have that much of a connection with them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And even some of the, I get, you know, I do send money to them and I'm on their email list. So I see the things that they're doing and any way that I can support them, I will but.

[Assistant] It's a pretty young group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And even some of the, I get, you know, I do send money to them and I'm on their email list. So I see the things that they're doing and any way that I can support them, I will but.

[Assistant] It's a pretty young group.

[User] It is. It's very young. And, you know, it's, I feel like it's time for me to step aside and let them take over. But I was very active with the 50th anniversary, planning the activities at the, uh, at Arlington Cemetery.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yes, I was very active in that, but I wasn't active with the 55th. I attended sessions, different things that were going on with the 55th, but I wasn't active in that.

[Assistant] When you think back on your Peace Corps experience, what impact do you think it had on your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. It's very young. And, you know, it's, I feel like it's time for me to step aside and let them take over. But I was very active with the 50th anniversary, planning the activities at the, uh, at Arlington Cemetery.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yes, I was very active in that, but I wasn't active with the 55th. I attended sessions, different things that were going on with the 55th, but I wasn't active in that.

[Assistant] When you think back on your Peace Corps experience, what impact do you think it had on your life?

[User] I think it makes me look at things in a more global manner. I listen to the news sometimes and they will say, oh, well, people in this country, they only make 10 cents an hour. And it makes me sit back and say, well, how much does it cost to live? You know, because.

[Assistant] You understand that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it makes me look at things in a more global manner. I listen to the news sometimes and they will say, oh, well, people in this country, they only make 10 cents an hour. And it makes me sit back and say, well, how much does it cost to live? You know, because.

[Assistant] You understand that.

[User] Right. And I remember one of the things that people would ask me, well, how much money did you get when you were a Peace Corps volunteer? I said, listen to what I was, I was a volunteer. I got a stipend to pay for things, but I wasn't paid a salary. Well, how much money did they give you just to live on? I said, well, it doesn't really matter, because what I was given was more than enough for me to survive on. If you translate that into U.S. dollars, there's no way that I could live on that. I said, so I always have to say, what does it cost to live in that place?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I think that's one of the things that has impacted my life. And when people tell me, well, people aren't making that much money in this country or that country. Well, I don't know how much it costs to live there. And even if you break it down to the United States, it costs different amounts of money to live in different parts of this country. And certain places people think are inexpensive are not inexpensive, because housing in South Carolina costs a lot more than people think it does. And one of the things that always amazed me was that when my mother was alive, there were certain grocery items I would buy here and I would take there. And then there were certain grocery items there that I would buy there and bring here.

[Assistant] So because the cost is so different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I think that's one of the things that has impacted my life. And when people tell me, well, people aren't making that much money in this country or that country. Well, I don't know how much it costs to live there. And even if you break it down to the United States, it costs different amounts of money to live in different parts of this country. And certain places people think are inexpensive are not inexpensive, because housing in South Carolina costs a lot more than people think it does. And one of the things that always amazed me was that when my mother was alive, there were certain grocery items I would buy here and I would take there. And then there were certain grocery items there that I would buy there and bring here.

[Assistant] So because the cost is so different.

[User] Right. The cost was completely different.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] Completely different.

[Assistant] Have you thought about the impact of Peace Corps on Kenya or your, your work specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Completely different.

[Assistant] Have you thought about the impact of Peace Corps on Kenya or your, your work specifically?

[User] Um, not my work specifically, but the impact of Peace Corps on Kenya. I think because of all the, for lack of a better term, free labor that the country was getting from Peace Corps volunteers, I think they profited quite well. And I am hopeful that eventually Peace Corps will go back. I was very disheartened when I found out that Peace Corps was no longer there. But as the, this was during the 55th anniversary, the director of Peace Corps was saying, was explaining that Peace Corps has been suspended rather than abandoned in the country.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So if things get better, then it'll be easy for a Peace Corps to just go back in. So hopefully that will happen.

[Assistant] So the question is about the third goal of Peace Corps, bringing the world back to the United States. Do you have any thoughts about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, not my work specifically, but the impact of Peace Corps on Kenya. I think because of all the, for lack of a better term, free labor that the country was getting from Peace Corps volunteers, I think they profited quite well. And I am hopeful that eventually Peace Corps will go back. I was very disheartened when I found out that Peace Corps was no longer there. But as the, this was during the 55th anniversary, the director of Peace Corps was saying, was explaining that Peace Corps has been suspended rather than abandoned in the country.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So if things get better, then it'll be easy for a Peace Corps to just go back in. So hopefully that will happen.

[Assistant] So the question is about the third goal of Peace Corps, bringing the world back to the United States. Do you have any thoughts about that?

[User]
Well, I think that goal is being met in a multitude of manners. One is that there's so many of us that have had this experience seem like. And so therefore, we are bringing in other experiences to people that we interact with every day. And at my church, there's several people, you know, it seemed like practically every time I turn around, there's another person that's telling me they're a returned Peace Corps volunteer. So our whole outlook on the world as a whole is more globally centered as opposed to people who have been right here in Washington, D.C., from birth to age 80 or whatever.

And I think it just, I think people will look at us and say, oh wow, that's an interesting experience. I've had lots of people say that to me. Oh, you did what? You just interrupted your career and went into Peace Corps? I said, yes. You know, I was still young. I felt like I was still young. I could do anything I wanted to do so.

[Assistant] And you did. It was great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, I think that goal is being met in a multitude of manners. One is that there's so many of us that have had this experience seem like. And so therefore, we are bringing in other experiences to people that we interact with every day. And at my church, there's several people, you know, it seemed like practically every time I turn around, there's another person that's telling me they're a returned Peace Corps volunteer. So our whole outlook on the world as a whole is more globally centered as opposed to people who have been right here in Washington, D.C., from birth to age 80 or whatever.

And I think it just, I think people will look at us and say, oh wow, that's an interesting experience. I've had lots of people say that to me. Oh, you did what? You just interrupted your career and went into Peace Corps? I said, yes. You know, I was still young. I felt like I was still young. I could do anything I wanted to do so.

[Assistant] And you did. It was great.

[User] Yes. I think I have had a fantastic life. Fantastic. And Peace Corps is definitely one of the highlights. I remember I took a class one time dealing with public speaking. And so we had to give a speech about something that had impacted our lives. Of course, you know, you know what my topic was.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yep. Yeah.

[Assistant] So that's probably a good place to end this, this interview. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we, before we end it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep. Yeah.

[Assistant] So that's probably a good place to end this, this interview. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we, before we end it?

[User] The only thing I have to say is that I wish Peace Corps still had that motto. The toughest job you'll ever love.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Because I loved it. It was not easy. Would I do it again? I wanted to. But because of budget situation, I will not apply. I feel like the number of volunteers has sunk so low that it would not be. I think it would be selfish of me if I applied and got in and took a slot from someone who's never had the experience.

[Assistant] And that's why we advocate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only thing I have to say is that I wish Peace Corps still had that motto. The toughest job you'll ever love.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Because I loved it. It was not easy. Would I do it again? I wanted to. But because of budget situation, I will not apply. I feel like the number of volunteers has sunk so low that it would not be. I think it would be selfish of me if I applied and got in and took a slot from someone who's never had the experience.

[Assistant] And that's why we advocate.

[User] That's why we advocate.

[Assistant] Great. So thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some types of classes we take condensed versions for. Last October I did assessments of all the systems: the life support system, the electrical system, the thermal control system. I took those system assessments, and from those assessments, then they determined how much training I needed to do. Which actually, in the end, allowed them to decrease the total training time for me. I was incentivized to do well on the assessments in order to reduce the total training flow.

[Assistant] Are there specialists on board ISS like there were on Shuttle where you had a mission specialist, commander, pilot? Are there those type of roles?

[User] No, actually, since we’ve gone to the ISS paradigm, everyone’s an astronaut. You’re expected to perform all functions. You’re expected to be able to do robotics, expected to be able to do EVAs, expected to be able to do the science program. You have to fulfill all functions. A commander versus a flight engineer role is slightly different, but the same skill set has to be available to everyone. That was particularly important when we had three person crew. Now that we have six person crew, we still need to have skill sets that encompass everything. It’s important that every crew member can do everything. I think it’s a different change in that mindset as well. You don’t have the capability to just specialize in one field or another. You need to be able to be good at everything: good at maintenance, good at science, good at EVA, good at robotics.

[Assistant] You’ve got a talented pool of people who can do all that.

[User] Yes, it’s pretty challenging, and everybody’s going to have skill sets—hey, this is easier for me, or this is harder for me, but that’s true of all of us. We train up the skills that each of us does not have so that we make that same minimum level of capability in all areas.

[Assistant] Would you share with us the evolution of science on board Station? You started out as the project scientist on Shuttle-Mir. How has that evolved since that time in ’92 to today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not musically talented, no. No, our big plan, and hopefully we’ll be able to pull it off, is we would like to highlight all the people that it takes to make space exploration possible. It still amazes me to this day. I go through all this training, and you learn so much about the hardware, so much about what the engineers had to design and plan for, so much about what the trainers do to teach you how to use this hardware. Then there’s the real-time flight control team that’s supporting you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The team is amazing. It’s just always mindboggling the number of different people: the divers at the NBL. There was a young lady I met over in the building who was working on spacesuits. She was doing the heat sealing of the inner bladder of the spacesuit. Her degree was in fashion design. It’s just really neat, all these different stories. All these different people bring so much to the space program and from so many different directions.

[Assistant] How are you showcasing all of it?

[User] We’re going to try and use social media to tell the stories of the people: where they came from, what inspired them, the fun stories about what they work on, what they enjoy the most about their job, what their biggest challenges are. We’re hoping to give young people an idea. You can be in the space program. You can be a part of exploration without necessarily being an astronaut. Not every kid wants to be an astronaut. Less than one percent of the applicants get selected, so it’s nice to be able to share with them all these other STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics] education backgrounds that are actually involved, not even STEM, but other backgrounds as well. I think showcasing all those will help young people, hopefully, be inspired by what we do, and hopefully want to participate in the next generation of exploration.

[Assistant] That’s a great idea.

[User] Hopefully it will work.

[Assistant] It sounds like a lot of work. What do you think is going to be the legacy of the ISS?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’re going to try and use social media to tell the stories of the people: where they came from, what inspired them, the fun stories about what they work on, what they enjoy the most about their job, what their biggest challenges are. We’re hoping to give young people an idea. You can be in the space program. You can be a part of exploration without necessarily being an astronaut. Not every kid wants to be an astronaut. Less than one percent of the applicants get selected, so it’s nice to be able to share with them all these other STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics] education backgrounds that are actually involved, not even STEM, but other backgrounds as well. I think showcasing all those will help young people, hopefully, be inspired by what we do, and hopefully want to participate in the next generation of exploration.

[Assistant] That’s a great idea.

[User] Hopefully it will work.

[Assistant] It sounds like a lot of work. What do you think is going to be the legacy of the ISS?

[User] For me, I think the legacy of the ISS will be the international partnership. I know there are other things that we do, globally, but this is the most technically difficult, complex thing that we’ve done as an international community. If you just even look at the construction of this engineering feat on orbit, most of these pieces never met before. They never crossed borders here on Earth, but we constructed them on orbit. Seventeen thousand, five hundred miles an hour, we put these pieces together.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s pretty amazing, and NASA makes it look easy. Well I think we’ve touched on all the questions that I had. I certainly appreciate you taking some time today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course there was the staff, the Preparedness Subcommittee had a staff. Senator Johnson borrowed people from here and there to put up the staff, so there were a number of people working on it. He was really like a dynamo at that time. He was so energized. [President Dwight D.] Eisenhower had not been very well at that time, and Eisenhower knew that we were well prepared in defense as far as weapons were concerned.\n\n It was Lyndon Johnson who really took the leadership in this, and he got [experts] in the Department of Defense to testify and [anyone] in the whole nation [who] could come, because you can see how many—we had about 2700 pages of hearings as a result of this.

[Assistant] Was this your first task working with Senator Johnson?

[User] Yes. I had worked for other members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, particularly Senator [William Stuart] Symington and Senator Margaret Chase Smith and also Senator [Leverett] Saltonstall and Senator [John Cornelius] Stennis. All of these Senators were on the Committee and they were all very energized and they all asked a lot of questions that you had to answer, and everything had to be done immediately.

[Assistant] This must have been one of your greatest assets, was to be able to get things done immediately.

[User] Yes. I think that’s what you learn in the Congressional Research Service, because [Members] always had some kind of a crisis.

[Assistant] How long were you a part of the Legislative Reference Service before [the Missile Satellite hearings started]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I had worked for other members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, particularly Senator [William Stuart] Symington and Senator Margaret Chase Smith and also Senator [Leverett] Saltonstall and Senator [John Cornelius] Stennis. All of these Senators were on the Committee and they were all very energized and they all asked a lot of questions that you had to answer, and everything had to be done immediately.

[Assistant] This must have been one of your greatest assets, was to be able to get things done immediately.

[User] Yes. I think that’s what you learn in the Congressional Research Service, because [Members] always had some kind of a crisis.

[Assistant] How long were you a part of the Legislative Reference Service before [the Missile Satellite hearings started]?

[User] My entire career [was] on the Hill [starting in 1941.] I was [in] the Legislative Reference Service [which] turned into the Congressional Research Service [CRS]. I was very fortunate at a time when it was expanding. We didn’t have very many people, but we were expanding to answer research problems for the Members. So if you were elected to the Congress as a Senator or Representative and you were put on a committee you might know nothing about, you still could get in touch with an expert who would tell you about taxation or social security or education or whatever the subject was. It just happened that I specialized in international relations and national defense.

[Assistant] Were you working on some of those issues when you learned about Sputnik?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the award that they gave me, the American Astronautical Society.

[Assistant] You have received different awards from different organizations in the past. Are there some that you would like to share with us that come to mind? For instance, we are noticing the one from the Women in Aerospace.

[User] The Women in Aerospace, that’s quite an organization too because some of the women have really [high level] jobs. They are astronomers, scientists, [the] chief scientist of NASA is a woman, and the biographies are really impressive. I don’t have much time to spend with that now; I spent a lot of time with that before. But I have been too busy with the NASA committees.

[Assistant] Tell us about your connection with NASA these days, what all that you’re doing for them.

[User] I was on the Advisory Committee on the International Space Station, and we kept track of the Space Station and our relations with the Russians and with other partners that we had, international partners. We kept track of the Shuttle and building the Space Station. Then that committee ended last October.\n\n They started a new committee this spring, and I was appointed to that. It’s the Space Flight Advisory Committee, and this is the one that deals with the Space Station, upgrading the Shuttle, the launching, they are trying to get launching at less cost, and communications. So we had a three-day meeting of that last month.

[Assistant] Are you finding old issues revisited, or are you still encountering new issues as the technology continues to change?