[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So but I knew it would pass.

[Assistant] So you didn't panic because you knew that eventually you would, this would all begin to make sense.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How about, how did your spouse do? You were married to David, who was also must have been going through some similar.

[User] Right. I think it was harder on him and, uh, and I, and I'm not sure why. I think our personalities are, just a difference in personality maybe. He had traveled overseas so that would not have been the deciding factor. But.

[Assistant] But you were adjusting a little bit more easily?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How about, how did your spouse do? You were married to David, who was also must have been going through some similar.

[User] Right. I think it was harder on him and, uh, and I, and I'm not sure why. I think our personalities are, just a difference in personality maybe. He had traveled overseas so that would not have been the deciding factor. But.

[Assistant] But you were adjusting a little bit more easily?

[User] Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] When you, you were taking the bus into Seoul and then where, did you stay together as a group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I think it was harder on him and, uh, and I, and I'm not sure why. I think our personalities are, just a difference in personality maybe. He had traveled overseas so that would not have been the deciding factor. But.

[Assistant] But you were adjusting a little bit more easily?

[User] Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] When you, you were taking the bus into Seoul and then where, did you stay together as a group?

[User] We stayed together as a group for a couple of days.

[Assistant] In a dorm thing or what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think so.

[Assistant] When you, you were taking the bus into Seoul and then where, did you stay together as a group?

[User] We stayed together as a group for a couple of days.

[Assistant] In a dorm thing or what?

[User] I don't remember exactly where we stayed, and maybe it wasn't even a couple of days. We were, we all were conveyed in several busses because there were enough, enough of us, at least two busses, to the Peace Corps headquarters in Seoul on the main sort of drag in the city. And at that point, we were, we were given an address of where we would be living. And it was given to us. We didn't have any say so in it. A lot of people who were not going to be teaching in Seoul were dispersed to wherever their assignment was.

[Assistant] Oh, but you were actually going to be teaching and living in Seoul as a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Ah, okay.

[User] So we, we understood that when we got to Seoul, that's where we were going to be staying.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which was fine by me. I mean, I was perfectly, I was happy. And I had been assigned to teach at Ewha Womans University, which in Korean culture, then and now, is the Radcliffe of Korea.

[Assistant] So you had a rather elite group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very pleased and flattered and honored to have had that placement. And it was in the, uh, Ewha had a College of Education. Within the College of Education, there was a department at that time called the Department of Teaching Foreign Languages.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And the foreign language that was being taught was English.

[Assistant] English, sure.

[User] Among others, French was one of them. And possibly German. I don't remember.

[Assistant] But your function was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the foreign language that was being taught was English.

[Assistant] English, sure.

[User] Among others, French was one of them. And possibly German. I don't remember.

[Assistant] But your function was.

[User] My function was to teach English, conversational English.

[Assistant] So, um, I'd like to get back to that in a minute, but let's talk about where you were living.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Among others, French was one of them. And possibly German. I don't remember.

[Assistant] But your function was.

[User] My function was to teach English, conversational English.

[Assistant] So, um, I'd like to get back to that in a minute, but let's talk about where you were living.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] At some point here, you're saying goodbye to all the other people in, I want to say all the other kids in your group, and you and David go off to a place where you're going to live.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My function was to teach English, conversational English.

[Assistant] So, um, I'd like to get back to that in a minute, but let's talk about where you were living.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] At some point here, you're saying goodbye to all the other people in, I want to say all the other kids in your group, and you and David go off to a place where you're going to live.

[User]
Yes. So we're conveyed to, uh, yong guan. That's the Korean word. A yong guan is like a boarding house. Uh. The particular one that we were conveyed to was in a neighborhood called Pukayan-dong, and the yong guan was operated by a Korean woman, middle age. There was no male around. So she was supporting herself with this business. It was in a colonial style Japanese house. So this would have been a house that would have been built during the Japanese occupation of Korea. And I found it immensely uncomfortable because the Korean houses have heated floors that are heated from below with charcoal briquettes called ondol. And the Japanese house was constructed, I think, for really a milder climate, the Japanese climate.

It did not have any floor heating. It had a long, dark hallway. It was very dark. I remember it was very dark. Dark wood. And electricity was available, but not used unless absolutely necessary. And we were given a room, like a bedroom sized room with a sliding paper door. So very little, no, no sound privacy whatsoever. The room had a window. It had some, um, tired looking wallpaper as I remember. I think it had one ceiling fixture with a string pull, and it had a potbelly stove and a double bed. That was about it.

[Assistant] No desks, no writing surface?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes. So we're conveyed to, uh, yong guan. That's the Korean word. A yong guan is like a boarding house. Uh. The particular one that we were conveyed to was in a neighborhood called Pukayan-dong, and the yong guan was operated by a Korean woman, middle age. There was no male around. So she was supporting herself with this business. It was in a colonial style Japanese house. So this would have been a house that would have been built during the Japanese occupation of Korea. And I found it immensely uncomfortable because the Korean houses have heated floors that are heated from below with charcoal briquettes called ondol. And the Japanese house was constructed, I think, for really a milder climate, the Japanese climate.

It did not have any floor heating. It had a long, dark hallway. It was very dark. I remember it was very dark. Dark wood. And electricity was available, but not used unless absolutely necessary. And we were given a room, like a bedroom sized room with a sliding paper door. So very little, no, no sound privacy whatsoever. The room had a window. It had some, um, tired looking wallpaper as I remember. I think it had one ceiling fixture with a string pull, and it had a potbelly stove and a double bed. That was about it.

[Assistant] No desks, no writing surface?

[User] Nothing.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Nothing. Nothing.

[Assistant] And no, no cooking? So you couldn't cook for yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. So across the hallway from our room, which was in kind of a noisy area, because right across the hallway was, uh, if you will, the kitchen. The kitchen had a sink with a cold running spigot and some cookware. And I think the heat, the cooking heat, was provided with a propane canister. There was a young girl from the countryside, Kyung Jah, who was about 16 years old, who had come up from the countryside because there was really no future for her there.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And her wages, I think, were sent back to some extent to her family.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] She had had chickenpox as a child and had a deeply pocked face, which really reduced her marriage opportunities.

[Assistant] It might have been smallpox.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know what kind of pox it was, but it was certainly pox.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was very distressing to her.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But she was, you know, a rock solid person and very nice and kind to us. And cooked all the meals for everyone who lived in the yong guan, which were a number of people. I think there was one other volunteer that we really never met because he was single and single volunteers that were male spent their time when they were not teaching at their college, and he was at a different college, drinking. That was the traditional male activity, going to a wine house and drinking and singing songs from dinnertime until midnight.

[Assistant] It sounds great, but that was just a guy thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was very distressing to her.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But she was, you know, a rock solid person and very nice and kind to us. And cooked all the meals for everyone who lived in the yong guan, which were a number of people. I think there was one other volunteer that we really never met because he was single and single volunteers that were male spent their time when they were not teaching at their college, and he was at a different college, drinking. That was the traditional male activity, going to a wine house and drinking and singing songs from dinnertime until midnight.

[Assistant] It sounds great, but that was just a guy thing?

[User] That was a guy thing. Absolutely a guy thing.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so who were the other people living in this boarding house with you? Were they Americans? Were they, were they Koreans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But she was, you know, a rock solid person and very nice and kind to us. And cooked all the meals for everyone who lived in the yong guan, which were a number of people. I think there was one other volunteer that we really never met because he was single and single volunteers that were male spent their time when they were not teaching at their college, and he was at a different college, drinking. That was the traditional male activity, going to a wine house and drinking and singing songs from dinnertime until midnight.

[Assistant] It sounds great, but that was just a guy thing?

[User] That was a guy thing. Absolutely a guy thing.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so who were the other people living in this boarding house with you? Were they Americans? Were they, were they Koreans?

[User] They must have been Koreans. But we really didn't, with the exception of the American, but we really didn't see anybody because everybody was on their own schedule. And we didn't eat together.

[Assistant] You didn't. So the 16 year old had to prepare meals.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a guy thing. Absolutely a guy thing.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so who were the other people living in this boarding house with you? Were they Americans? Were they, were they Koreans?

[User] They must have been Koreans. But we really didn't, with the exception of the American, but we really didn't see anybody because everybody was on their own schedule. And we didn't eat together.

[Assistant] You didn't. So the 16 year old had to prepare meals.

[User] For everyone.

[Assistant] At staggered times, not all one meal that you'd all sit down and eat. Huh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They must have been Koreans. But we really didn't, with the exception of the American, but we really didn't see anybody because everybody was on their own schedule. And we didn't eat together.

[Assistant] You didn't. So the 16 year old had to prepare meals.

[User] For everyone.

[Assistant] At staggered times, not all one meal that you'd all sit down and eat. Huh.

[User] And she, she prepared our, our breakfast and she prepared, prepared our dinner.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And dinner being the evening meal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she, she prepared our, our breakfast and she prepared, prepared our dinner.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And dinner being the evening meal?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And it was traditional Korean food. And it was, you know, it was very, very tasty. She did a great job. And she would bring it in on a tray, or low tray, and we'd sit on the floor on a cushion and eat Korean style food.

[Assistant] But the floor was cold.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was traditional Korean food. And it was, you know, it was very, very tasty. She did a great job. And she would bring it in on a tray, or low tray, and we'd sit on the floor on a cushion and eat Korean style food.

[Assistant] But the floor was cold.

[User] The floor was cold, the bed was freezing, and the stove was not heated during the day because there's no way you're going to be putting wood into a stove if the occupants are gone from the room.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Because they're at their universities.

[Assistant] So when you came home, you came to a very cold.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was extremely cold.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I have no idea how cold, but, you know, no heat and the outside temperature is 20, if you're lucky.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so by the time the heat. It was almost not worth even putting wood in the stove, because by the time the stove was heated, it was time to go to bed.

[Assistant] Right. And there wasn't anything else to do because you didn't have desks. You couldn't sit and write letters or prepare lessons or do anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have no idea how cold, but, you know, no heat and the outside temperature is 20, if you're lucky.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so by the time the heat. It was almost not worth even putting wood in the stove, because by the time the stove was heated, it was time to go to bed.

[Assistant] Right. And there wasn't anything else to do because you didn't have desks. You couldn't sit and write letters or prepare lessons or do anything.

[User] Not in your room. Not there, no. I did all of the lesson preparation at Ewha.

[Assistant] At school. Yeah. So you and David went off to different schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so by the time the heat. It was almost not worth even putting wood in the stove, because by the time the stove was heated, it was time to go to bed.

[Assistant] Right. And there wasn't anything else to do because you didn't have desks. You couldn't sit and write letters or prepare lessons or do anything.

[User] Not in your room. Not there, no. I did all of the lesson preparation at Ewha.

[Assistant] At school. Yeah. So you and David went off to different schools?

[User] He went to a different school. He went to, he was assigned to Sungkyunkwan, which is a Confucian college, and he was assigned to, I believe, their English department. And it was in the opposite direction from, from mine.

[Assistant] So your work lives were totally separate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in your room. Not there, no. I did all of the lesson preparation at Ewha.

[Assistant] At school. Yeah. So you and David went off to different schools?

[User] He went to a different school. He went to, he was assigned to Sungkyunkwan, which is a Confucian college, and he was assigned to, I believe, their English department. And it was in the opposite direction from, from mine.

[Assistant] So your work lives were totally separate?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And you came back together. What, in what situations, since you were teaching English, did you need to use Korean in the course of teaching or did, was your need to use Korean mostly outside, like with the cook and as you traveled between home and school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. The use of Korean was as you've described it for me. Now, for volunteers who were out in the countryside, they used Korean because nobody spoke any English, and so they learned differently. And also for the men, it was a very different experience than for the women. I think for the single women, it was terribly isolating.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I don't know how they did it because the culture was totally bifurcated on gender lines.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And in fact, the Korean word for a wife, loosely translated, means in person. In other words, the person who is inside the house, who doesn't leave.

[Assistant] Oh, the in person, and the man is the out person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And in fact, the Korean word for a wife, loosely translated, means in person. In other words, the person who is inside the house, who doesn't leave.

[Assistant] Oh, the in person, and the man is the out person.

[User] And the man is the out person. And the in person is quite literal because they're either in a house or in a compound and you don't leave.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And most people had, of any means, had a servant, excuse me, like this country girl, because everything had to be done by hand. All the laundry was done by hand, all the cleaning was done by hand, all the cooking was done by hand. There were no refrigerators, so food had to be bought every day and prepared fresh. And so it was very labor intensive and people really needed a servant or a country girl or some such person. Um. At Ewha where I was placed.

[Assistant] Should we just stop this for a minute?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the man is the out person. And the in person is quite literal because they're either in a house or in a compound and you don't leave.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And most people had, of any means, had a servant, excuse me, like this country girl, because everything had to be done by hand. All the laundry was done by hand, all the cleaning was done by hand, all the cooking was done by hand. There were no refrigerators, so food had to be bought every day and prepared fresh. And so it was very labor intensive and people really needed a servant or a country girl or some such person. Um. At Ewha where I was placed.

[Assistant] Should we just stop this for a minute?

[User] Yeah. [tape break]

[Assistant] Okay, we stopped the tape and we're back. We were talking about your situations in which you would need to use your Korean. And how did that go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And most people had, of any means, had a servant, excuse me, like this country girl, because everything had to be done by hand. All the laundry was done by hand, all the cleaning was done by hand, all the cooking was done by hand. There were no refrigerators, so food had to be bought every day and prepared fresh. And so it was very labor intensive and people really needed a servant or a country girl or some such person. Um. At Ewha where I was placed.

[Assistant] Should we just stop this for a minute?

[User] Yeah. [tape break]

[Assistant] Okay, we stopped the tape and we're back. We were talking about your situations in which you would need to use your Korean. And how did that go?

[User] Yes, uh, that went fine. I was able to do basic transactions. I was able to buy food in a market and negotiate price because Koreans had no pricing. It was all haggling. And haggling was considered a necessary and socially mandatory thing to do.

[Assistant] Sure. And you were a fool if you paid the first price.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, uh, that went fine. I was able to do basic transactions. I was able to buy food in a market and negotiate price because Koreans had no pricing. It was all haggling. And haggling was considered a necessary and socially mandatory thing to do.

[Assistant] Sure. And you were a fool if you paid the first price.

[User] You were an absolute fool if you paid the first price. And in fact, you know, it was rude not to haggle and not to negotiate.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was sort of a game, you know?

[Assistant] And you'd be, were you buying food that your 16 year old cook would then prepare? Or were you buying other fruits and things that you'd snack on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You were an absolute fool if you paid the first price. And in fact, you know, it was rude not to haggle and not to negotiate.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was sort of a game, you know?

[Assistant] And you'd be, were you buying food that your 16 year old cook would then prepare? Or were you buying other fruits and things that you'd snack on?

[User] Well, for lunch. The food example I'm giving is when we lived in our second residence, which was within a compound.

[Assistant] Oh, you didn't stay in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So she was very accomplished herself. And had, had broken out of, and because of the death of her husband, in a way, had been forced out of a traditional Korean marriage.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So she was unique. She also understood what it was like to be in a foreign country because she had lived in the United States.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] In the middle of the heartland, you know, so.

[Assistant] And experienced heat in winter. So she would understand your discomfort in not having heat in winter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I took to her immediately and she was extremely helpful and kind to both the other volunteer and myself. But I felt a strong affinity for her.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And she. Her English was good enough that we often ended up talking in English because we really wanted to talk to each other. And my Korean was not anywhere near as adequate as her English. Um, so unlike some volunteers who were forced to speak in Korean, I was not forced to.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um. She was assigned to be my chido kiosu and it took me a long time to understand what that actually meant. But in terms of the Korean language, it means chi is life and do is school and kiosu is two different words loosely meaning guide. So if you, if you translate it into English, it's something like guide on how to live, which is much more than mentor. I mean, the word mentor in English just pales by comparison. Her, her, her role was to, in effect, guide me on how to live well and to be socialized properly as a Korean and not make gaffes.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. How wonderful to have your training continued in the form of this person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. She was assigned to be my chido kiosu and it took me a long time to understand what that actually meant. But in terms of the Korean language, it means chi is life and do is school and kiosu is two different words loosely meaning guide. So if you, if you translate it into English, it's something like guide on how to live, which is much more than mentor. I mean, the word mentor in English just pales by comparison. Her, her, her role was to, in effect, guide me on how to live well and to be socialized properly as a Korean and not make gaffes.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. How wonderful to have your training continued in the form of this person.

[User] She was immensely helpful. And I made a terrible gaffe, which I will never forget, and to her actually. And that was, um. She came one day to our office and said that there would be an event that the volunteers were invited to and knowing that we were married, she said, and knowing that we had been taught that married volunteers did not, in Korean society the men and women did not socialize. But in this particular event, the Koreans were making an exception, if you will, and the married volunteers were invited to bring their spouse.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And I knew she had a daughter. So I asked her if she would be coming with her spouse because I was trying to gauge how.

[Assistant] Oh, if her daughter would be coming with her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I knew she had a daughter. So I asked her if she would be coming with her spouse because I was trying to gauge how.

[Assistant] Oh, if her daughter would be coming with her?

[User] No, her daughter was a child. If she, Kim Yung Sook, would be coming with her spouse. I knew she had this, there had been a man in her life because she had a child.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Are you following me?

[Assistant] I am, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, her daughter was a child. If she, Kim Yung Sook, would be coming with her spouse. I knew she had this, there had been a man in her life because she had a child.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Are you following me?

[Assistant] I am, yeah.

[User] So.

[Assistant] But you didn't yet know that she was a widow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In trying to ascertain how far the Koreans were deviating from their cultural norm by inviting us with our spouses to accommodate our cultural norm, I asked her if she would be bringing her spouse.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] In other words, was the deviation such that a Korean could bring their spouse?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And she just looked at me. She didn't say a word. Her face was impassive. And she just looked at me. Uh, I had no idea. I had no idea what was happening.

[Assistant] Right. How confusing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she just looked at me. She didn't say a word. Her face was impassive. And she just looked at me. Uh, I had no idea. I had no idea what was happening.

[Assistant] Right. How confusing.

[User] I understood that it was a question that was not going to be answered. But she wasn't going to tell me. It wasn't going to be answered. It was just not going to be answered. And so the moment passed, and that was the end of that encounter. But it was a critical encounter because the, I should not have asked the question. In other words, I should not have asked a personal question. And in particular, because that's intrusive. I mean, that was, that was an American thing to do and it was not a Korean thing to do.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I had violated a norm and. [tape break]

[Assistant] The leader's come through. This is Phyllis Noble interviewing Margaret Eger Taylor. And this is tape, we're beginning tape three. We're talking about Kim Jung Sook.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, um, that, that moment moved on to some other moment. I found out later, because I inquired of another Korean teacher, uh, what, what had transpired, because I didn't understand it. And I was told that, in fact, her husband had died unexpectedly. He had been studying in the United States and the circumstances were not explained to me. But he died and left her a widow with a very young child in a culture where widows are not marriageable. So she was stuck, probably at age 30, I think, to fabricate a life for herself.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Quite unexpectedly. And that her response to me was a, an appropriate Korean response to an inappropriate question.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And the appropriate Korean response was not to distress me, not to distress the other person. So I asked her a terribly distressing question, which I should not have asked, but her response is to maintain a neutrality so that I don't feel distressed. Had she told me that her husband had died, obviously I would have realized that I had asked a very painful question.

[Assistant] And then you'd be embarrassed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quite unexpectedly. And that her response to me was a, an appropriate Korean response to an inappropriate question.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And the appropriate Korean response was not to distress me, not to distress the other person. So I asked her a terribly distressing question, which I should not have asked, but her response is to maintain a neutrality so that I don't feel distressed. Had she told me that her husband had died, obviously I would have realized that I had asked a very painful question.

[Assistant] And then you'd be embarrassed.

[User] And then I'd be embarrassed. So. And the injunction against embarrassing the other person is so great that her primary goal is not to cause me distress. So she's absorbing the distress, but she's dedicated to not causing me distress.

[Assistant] Such an incredible difference in cultures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the appropriate Korean response was not to distress me, not to distress the other person. So I asked her a terribly distressing question, which I should not have asked, but her response is to maintain a neutrality so that I don't feel distressed. Had she told me that her husband had died, obviously I would have realized that I had asked a very painful question.

[Assistant] And then you'd be embarrassed.

[User] And then I'd be embarrassed. So. And the injunction against embarrassing the other person is so great that her primary goal is not to cause me distress. So she's absorbing the distress, but she's dedicated to not causing me distress.

[Assistant] Such an incredible difference in cultures.

[User] Totally different.

[Assistant] That you're learning through personal experience, not out of a textbook.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I'd be embarrassed. So. And the injunction against embarrassing the other person is so great that her primary goal is not to cause me distress. So she's absorbing the distress, but she's dedicated to not causing me distress.

[Assistant] Such an incredible difference in cultures.

[User] Totally different.

[Assistant] That you're learning through personal experience, not out of a textbook.

[User] Right. And so that was a lesson I never forgot, and she never explained it to me. I heard this.

[Assistant] From somebody else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't ask. She's about ready to answer. My phone rings.

[Assistant] Oh, no!

[User] And I go to get the phone. And it was brief. But whatever magic bubble, the meniscus on that bubble, it broke. I mean, there was no way to get back to.

[Assistant] The moment.

[User] The moment.

[Assistant] Of sharing this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The moment.

[Assistant] Of sharing this.

[User] Of sharing that information, so I will never know, ever. But I thought it was an interesting bookend that at a point many, many years later, when I'm married, have young children, and my husband is at that point, the father of my children has become ill and it's not an illness he's going to recover from. So we had that in common.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So my story had a happy ending because of her. And she, that's just an example of, of how she guided me. Now, in that case, she couldn't guide me because I stepped right into it. But in every other situation, she offered a guidance and would explain to me how to behave and where pitfalls would be and how to negotiate and.

[Assistant] How marvelous. Every Peace Corps volunteer should have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of sharing that information, so I will never know, ever. But I thought it was an interesting bookend that at a point many, many years later, when I'm married, have young children, and my husband is at that point, the father of my children has become ill and it's not an illness he's going to recover from. So we had that in common.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So my story had a happy ending because of her. And she, that's just an example of, of how she guided me. Now, in that case, she couldn't guide me because I stepped right into it. But in every other situation, she offered a guidance and would explain to me how to behave and where pitfalls would be and how to negotiate and.

[Assistant] How marvelous. Every Peace Corps volunteer should have.

[User] Every Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Such a person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So my story had a happy ending because of her. And she, that's just an example of, of how she guided me. Now, in that case, she couldn't guide me because I stepped right into it. But in every other situation, she offered a guidance and would explain to me how to behave and where pitfalls would be and how to negotiate and.

[Assistant] How marvelous. Every Peace Corps volunteer should have.

[User] Every Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Such a person.

[User] Every human being should have such a person.

[Assistant] Yes, please. And so was she instrumental in helping you find your second living arrangement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Every human being should have such a person.

[Assistant] Yes, please. And so was she instrumental in helping you find your second living arrangement?

[User] Yes, she was. So she knew that we were not, you know, that it was sort of an uncomfortable, cold, difficult place to live in and that I wanted to be able to do some cooking and shopping and so forth.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So she, in her usual very kind way, saw to it that a distant, I think a cousin of hers or some not immediate relative, she had shared this information with him. And I'll never forget his name because we thought it was, even she thought it was an interesting last name. His last name was Bu and so his name was Ha To Bu. Oh, I'm sorry. His last name was Ha and his given names were To Bu.

[Assistant] But so his family name, the family name comes first?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The family name comes first. But the ending with the Bu in English sounds silly, you know. Ha To Bu, you know. So, so, we, you know, she, her English was such that she understood that this was.

[Assistant] The humor.

[User] The humor. So Ha To Bu knew a Korean family that he, I don't know if he, I don't know if there was. Somebody was related to somebody, but I don't remember exactly what the relationship was. But this other Korean family had lived in a traditional Korean house in a compound in another neighborhood called Kayun-dong, and the family's last name was Chung. And they had within their compound, as was common for compounds of that type, a two room Korean structure with heated floor, ondol floor, that was I think originally part of, would have been a servant's quarters.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Where the servant actually or a servant's family actually lived in this two room house that was in the corner of the compound. And they asked us if we would like to live there. And I was delighted. The Korean architecture I think is just stunning. And, um, the traditional architecture. And it had this heated floor, which was the difference, all the difference in the world.

[Assistant] No kidding, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The humor. So Ha To Bu knew a Korean family that he, I don't know if he, I don't know if there was. Somebody was related to somebody, but I don't remember exactly what the relationship was. But this other Korean family had lived in a traditional Korean house in a compound in another neighborhood called Kayun-dong, and the family's last name was Chung. And they had within their compound, as was common for compounds of that type, a two room Korean structure with heated floor, ondol floor, that was I think originally part of, would have been a servant's quarters.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Where the servant actually or a servant's family actually lived in this two room house that was in the corner of the compound. And they asked us if we would like to live there. And I was delighted. The Korean architecture I think is just stunning. And, um, the traditional architecture. And it had this heated floor, which was the difference, all the difference in the world.

[Assistant] No kidding, yeah.

[User] And it had a little unheated sort of porch, a summer kind of a porch extension, that I was able to, um. It was quite a tiny room, but I was able to make a kitchen out of it with a table. I got a propane gas burner and tank. There was no running water except in the courtyard. There was a common courtyard, there was a pump, a hand pump, and the courtyard also had outhouse, plus their main house. And, um, I was so happy to be able to do that. And in the context of my Korean language, then I was responsible for, for buying all the food and preparing all the food, because again, that's, that was a gender distinction. My then husband David would not have been, it would have been inappropriate for him to do the shopping or the cooking.

[Assistant] Right. Oh, and so, but you are cooking only for yourself and David, not for the family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where the servant actually or a servant's family actually lived in this two room house that was in the corner of the compound. And they asked us if we would like to live there. And I was delighted. The Korean architecture I think is just stunning. And, um, the traditional architecture. And it had this heated floor, which was the difference, all the difference in the world.

[Assistant] No kidding, yeah.

[User] And it had a little unheated sort of porch, a summer kind of a porch extension, that I was able to, um. It was quite a tiny room, but I was able to make a kitchen out of it with a table. I got a propane gas burner and tank. There was no running water except in the courtyard. There was a common courtyard, there was a pump, a hand pump, and the courtyard also had outhouse, plus their main house. And, um, I was so happy to be able to do that. And in the context of my Korean language, then I was responsible for, for buying all the food and preparing all the food, because again, that's, that was a gender distinction. My then husband David would not have been, it would have been inappropriate for him to do the shopping or the cooking.

[Assistant] Right. Oh, and so, but you are cooking only for yourself and David, not for the family?

[User] Correct. We were only cooking for ourselves. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had they offered to cook for you or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it had a little unheated sort of porch, a summer kind of a porch extension, that I was able to, um. It was quite a tiny room, but I was able to make a kitchen out of it with a table. I got a propane gas burner and tank. There was no running water except in the courtyard. There was a common courtyard, there was a pump, a hand pump, and the courtyard also had outhouse, plus their main house. And, um, I was so happy to be able to do that. And in the context of my Korean language, then I was responsible for, for buying all the food and preparing all the food, because again, that's, that was a gender distinction. My then husband David would not have been, it would have been inappropriate for him to do the shopping or the cooking.

[Assistant] Right. Oh, and so, but you are cooking only for yourself and David, not for the family?

[User] Correct. We were only cooking for ourselves. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had they offered to cook for you or?

[User] No, no. They, you know, the families were autonomous in the sense that we came and went as we wished.

[Assistant] And you paid them some rent?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. We were only cooking for ourselves. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had they offered to cook for you or?

[User] No, no. They, you know, the families were autonomous in the sense that we came and went as we wished.

[Assistant] And you paid them some rent?

[User] We paid them rent. They had four children, one, the oldest of whom was a son. They had three sons and a daughter, but the oldest son was maybe a year or two younger than we were, maybe a couple of years younger than that. But I think what they were hoping was that it would give him, this older son, an opportunity to speak a little English and to be around Americans.

[Assistant] Mm hmm, mm hmm.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And actually, the oldest son did come visit us when we were living in Ithaca. Now back to the Kim Jung Sook story. I want to give you the, the side of the experience that I had where the guidance that I got, which made all the difference in the world, was either not given or was not picked up on. And it led eventually to our leaving Korea.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] And that was that David at Sungkyunkwan was placed in an English department which I don't think was part of a college of education. So it was professors teaching English who were considered to have mastered the English language enough that they could be teaching college students.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] The circumstances of this, I don't know, but after he had been there about a year, uh, I became aware that something had happened. And what that something was, I think David had a hard time explaining because he didn't know what it was, just like I didn't know what I did.

[Assistant] So mysteries about the differences in the culture where you can offend somebody and not know that you did and not know what's going on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not know what's going on. And offend in a way that causes that person to lose, in Kim Yung Sook's case, she didn't lose face. I just asked a very, very inappropriate question that caused her then to have to behave the way she did so that she would not cause me discomfort.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] In his case, uh, the, the gaffe, which is, you know, I think he was just behaving in an American way and so he was unaware that he was making a gaffe.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Not totally unaware, but I think totally caught off guard by this particular one. The gaffe was that he caused, or as a result of something he did, one of his Korean colleagues, one of these professors, lost face in such a way that it was irrecoverable. I mean, there was no way to undo it.

[Assistant] Did he correct the guy's English or what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not exactly sure what. Apparently, there was a discussion. You know, he was in, two or three of the Korean teachers were talking. I think one of them might have been the department chairman. And somehow David, in speaking English, said something that the chairman, I think it was the chairman of the department, did not understand and that this. That itself would have been difficult. But it occurred in front of two other or three other faculty so that the lack of the, the department chairman's capacity to process what David was saying in English revealed a deficiency in the department chairman's comprehension or use of the English language.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] In front of colleagues, which was, you know, it would have been embarrassing probably in any context. But in this particular context, not, it caused a loss of face that was not repairable. Because the, someone in the university, I don't know who it was, at the end of the semester reported back to the Korean Peace Corps office because the office director stayed in touch with the placements. And so that we would sort of give them feedback on us, came back, and the feedback came back that they didn't want him back.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] That this event.

[Assistant] That they didn't want your husband back or they didn't want the chair?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That this event.

[Assistant] That they didn't want your husband back or they didn't want the chair?

[User] They didn't want my husband back.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] The chair stayed and the.

[Assistant] The guy who caused the embarrassment had to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, it was, it was untenable to have him stay there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] He, he was devastated. He didn't understand.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] He certainly didn't intend it and, and, um, and was devastated that he had caused, you know, this level of distress to the chairman, but then also devastated that the level of distress that he caused was such that he was expelled, if you will, from, from that placement. Because I think otherwise he was quite happy in the placement. And, but he did not have this chido kiosu in the way that I did.

[Assistant] Chido kiosu again is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He, he was devastated. He didn't understand.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] He certainly didn't intend it and, and, um, and was devastated that he had caused, you know, this level of distress to the chairman, but then also devastated that the level of distress that he caused was such that he was expelled, if you will, from, from that placement. Because I think otherwise he was quite happy in the placement. And, but he did not have this chido kiosu in the way that I did.

[Assistant] Chido kiosu again is?

[User] This is the guide in the way of living.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He certainly didn't intend it and, and, um, and was devastated that he had caused, you know, this level of distress to the chairman, but then also devastated that the level of distress that he caused was such that he was expelled, if you will, from, from that placement. Because I think otherwise he was quite happy in the placement. And, but he did not have this chido kiosu in the way that I did.

[Assistant] Chido kiosu again is?

[User] This is the guide in the way of living.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right.

[User] Guide in the school of way of.

[Assistant] That's right. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is the guide in the way of living.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right.

[User] Guide in the school of way of.

[Assistant] That's right. Yes.

[User] In the school.

[Assistant] Yes, yes, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Guide in the school of way of.

[Assistant] That's right. Yes.

[User] In the school.

[Assistant] Yes, yes, yes.

[User] He may have had one, but he didn't have one that was able to help him navigate or avoid this, the shoals of this particular disaster.

[Assistant] If there was any way to navigate it once it's been said.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He may have had one, but he didn't have one that was able to help him navigate or avoid this, the shoals of this particular disaster.

[Assistant] If there was any way to navigate it once it's been said.

[User] Once it's out, it's out.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Once it's out, it's out. And Kim Yung Sook, I mean, in my case it was out, but I didn't embarrass her in front of any colleagues. I wasn't embarrassing her in the context of her, uh, her professional credentials.

[Assistant] Right. It was just, there was no face losing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once it's out, it's out. And Kim Yung Sook, I mean, in my case it was out, but I didn't embarrass her in front of any colleagues. I wasn't embarrassing her in the context of her, uh, her professional credentials.

[Assistant] Right. It was just, there was no face losing.

[User] It was uncomfortable, but there was no loss of face.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, uh, but in David's case, there was loss of face and it was irreparable because apparently the Peace Corps office, the director tried to sort of work it through with the English department at Sungkyunkwan.

[Assistant] The Peace Corps director of Korea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, uh, but in David's case, there was loss of face and it was irreparable because apparently the Peace Corps office, the director tried to sort of work it through with the English department at Sungkyunkwan.

[Assistant] The Peace Corps director of Korea?

[User] Yes. Because Sungkyunkwan said, you know, we do not want this volunteer next year, which would have been year number two.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Can you send us somebody else? And the Peace Corps director's response was to try to resolve the problem. And several weeks went by. I don't, we were not privy to what the resolution efforts were but.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, you're continuing to teach because the semester is not over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Because Sungkyunkwan said, you know, we do not want this volunteer next year, which would have been year number two.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Can you send us somebody else? And the Peace Corps director's response was to try to resolve the problem. And several weeks went by. I don't, we were not privy to what the resolution efforts were but.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, you're continuing to teach because the semester is not over?

[User] Excuse me. I'm going to have to have some water.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [tape break]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Can you send us somebody else? And the Peace Corps director's response was to try to resolve the problem. And several weeks went by. I don't, we were not privy to what the resolution efforts were but.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, you're continuing to teach because the semester is not over?

[User] Excuse me. I'm going to have to have some water.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [tape break]

[User] Um, I don't remember the exact sequence, which really doesn't matter in terms of, of whether the semester was over or not over. But by the time it was over, it was clear that this situation was not reparable. And it just was not reparable, which was almost incomprehensible to an American. But on the other hand, in the context of the culture was understandable. So we have a cultural gap here that cannot be bridged. That meant that he didn't have, David didn't have a place to teach because his assignment had been removed by the Korean.

[Assistant] And could the Peace Corps not simply have found a different school for David?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Excuse me. I'm going to have to have some water.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [tape break]

[User] Um, I don't remember the exact sequence, which really doesn't matter in terms of, of whether the semester was over or not over. But by the time it was over, it was clear that this situation was not reparable. And it just was not reparable, which was almost incomprehensible to an American. But on the other hand, in the context of the culture was understandable. So we have a cultural gap here that cannot be bridged. That meant that he didn't have, David didn't have a place to teach because his assignment had been removed by the Korean.

[Assistant] And could the Peace Corps not simply have found a different school for David?

[User] They tried.

[Assistant] To start all over again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I don't remember the exact sequence, which really doesn't matter in terms of, of whether the semester was over or not over. But by the time it was over, it was clear that this situation was not reparable. And it just was not reparable, which was almost incomprehensible to an American. But on the other hand, in the context of the culture was understandable. So we have a cultural gap here that cannot be bridged. That meant that he didn't have, David didn't have a place to teach because his assignment had been removed by the Korean.

[Assistant] And could the Peace Corps not simply have found a different school for David?

[User] They tried.

[Assistant] To start all over again?

[User] They tried. That was, that was the thought. Well, we'll look for another placement. But it was the Korean Ministry of Education, I think, that was involved in negotiating with the schools that would be interested in having an American Peace Corps volunteer there in the capacity of a TESL teacher. There were not. The way we understood it was that there were not placements that would be available to begin the next semester, which would have been coming up quickly. That they, in fact, could not place him. They certainly couldn't place him in Seoul and they couldn't place him at a university because there just were not any available placements. I'm not sure if there was discussion about, well, maybe he could be placed in a middle school.

[Assistant] Or as a tutor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we had about a month and we traveled to Southeast Asia, and when we came back, things still had not been resolved. We still didn't have a placement. And they, he said, I'm, I'd like to go home. And I approached the Peace Corps office after he and I had talked. I said, you know, I don't want to go home, but if you want to go back to Ithaca, you know, I'll meet you in a year and we'll pick up from there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I proposed this to the Peace Corps office. I think we did together. And the Peace Corps response was, and this was official doctrine at that time, you cannot do that. You can stay in country together or you can leave in country together, but you can't one of you stay and one of you leave. You came married and you were going to have to either stay or leave married.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] And so and we said, well, we're happy to stay married, but, you know, I'd like to stay.

[Assistant] Yeah. Finish out your, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very painful. And it was painful for both of us, but painful for us, I think, in different ways. And for me, it left this huge chasm of unfinished experience. A lack of closure.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because I was being given in Korea an opportunity that I would not have been given in the United States. In other words, somebody that's fresh out of college to be able to teach at the finest university, women's university in Korea, in a, in a setting where I had a wonderful guide who had gone out of her way to help us find housing that we were very happy with and, uh, you know, where I had an opportunity. She did other things, too. She took me, she knew I was interested in Korean arts of various kinds. And she took me to neighborhoods, old neighborhoods, where they had Korean artifacts that were old enough that they could be deemed antiques or antiquities and leave the country.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so I felt like I was just losing an opportunity that I would never be able to replace.

[Assistant] Yeah. I'm sorry that happened.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, it was, it was a problem. Now, the upshot of that is that, uh, in terms of how it affected me going forward in my life, and I mentioned this to you yesterday I think, that when I was working in a maximum security psychiatric hospital with male inpatients who had been found not guilty by reason of insanity for crimes that were sort of minor to very major, murder and rape and so forth, that when I was told precipitously that I had to conduct psychosocial rehabilitation groups with this population, the model that I used to help me do something that I had no experience in and no training in, was to go back to being that 22 year old volunteer in Korea.

Remind myself that I had been able to deal cross-culturally with populations that were not native English speakers, did not share my culture any more than these psychiatric inpatients. These male psychiatric inpatients, for the most part, did not speak English the way I speak English. They had grown up in the inner city, inner cities in Michigan for the most part, and had a very different language, which I, I don't think I fully even understood at the time how different. Not only a different language, but a different way of, they were socialized differently. They saw the world differently. They might have, they, they were in, in terms of their cultural backgrounds or linguistic background as foreign to me as these Korean students.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So you were able to tell yourself, well, I've been in something like this before. I can do this.

[User] I pulled that out of the bag.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I thought, I'm going to pretend I'm Kim Jung Sook and I'm going to pretend I can do this, and I am going to pretend that I have her, uh, her qualities, her, her ability to be a guide in the school of life. Because what was I doing? I was assigned psychosocial rehabilitation. What is that?

[Assistant] How do you act appropriately?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I pulled that out of the bag.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I thought, I'm going to pretend I'm Kim Jung Sook and I'm going to pretend I can do this, and I am going to pretend that I have her, uh, her qualities, her, her ability to be a guide in the school of life. Because what was I doing? I was assigned psychosocial rehabilitation. What is that?

[Assistant] How do you act appropriately?

[User] How do you act appropriately in this culture? Because you wouldn't be in this facility if you had acted appropriately in this culture. You wouldn't have ended up here.

[Assistant] And you had a really unique experience in having a very clear transfer of what you learned in Peace Corps then being applicable in a really quite different situation later here in the United States.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And within them too. I mean, that this exchange was working. And I remember one time being, uh, reprimanded by one of the inpatients who was a middle aged African American male from the inner city of Saginaw and had, was quite psychotic, but also at times quite lucid. And he was very interested in learning, although I think his education had ended in eighth grade and the offense was a serious offense and he was there as not guilty by reason of insanity.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And in terms of the psychosocial rehabilitation and my role as the teacher, the guide in the school of life, like if you want to leave this facility, you need to understand that the courts are going to be looking at aspects of your behavior here in this facility and making judgments about whether or not, uh, you are a danger to self and others. That's the, the statutory criteria. Uh, and if you are, what level of confinement is required to keep you from being an active danger to self and others? And in Michigan the statute is that the level of confinement has to be the, quote, least restrictive, and the least restrictive in Michigan would have, or the next step from maximum security, would have been a psychiatric hospital.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Would be to a regional psychiatric hospital where there would be a high level of supervision, but no trained security staff, and it would not be a locked facility. The forensic center is an absolutely locked down facility the same way you would expect in a prison. Even though it was a hospital. Um. [tape break]

[Assistant] Okay. I've got lots more questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Would be to a regional psychiatric hospital where there would be a high level of supervision, but no trained security staff, and it would not be a locked facility. The forensic center is an absolutely locked down facility the same way you would expect in a prison. Even though it was a hospital. Um. [tape break]

[Assistant] Okay. I've got lots more questions.

[User] Oh, dear. Oh, dear, dear. Um. I said something about socialization and trying to model what he would need to understand he needed to do to go to a less restrictive facility. And he shot back with, we were socialized, just not like you.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Bingo. He got me.

[Assistant] An intelligent guy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, dear. Oh, dear, dear. Um. I said something about socialization and trying to model what he would need to understand he needed to do to go to a less restrictive facility. And he shot back with, we were socialized, just not like you.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Bingo. He got me.

[Assistant] An intelligent guy.

[User] Very smart.

[Assistant] He's aware of the very different cultures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very smart.

[Assistant] He's aware of the very different cultures.

[User] Street smart.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Okay. More questions?

[Assistant] I would like to go back to Korea a little bit more.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Street smart.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Okay. More questions?

[Assistant] I would like to go back to Korea a little bit more.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] And to talk more about your, um, your teaching, your sense of being a teacher. And we haven't really spent a lot of time talking about what your life was like within the university in terms of being in the classroom. Your students were university students. They were the elite women of Korea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. More questions?

[Assistant] I would like to go back to Korea a little bit more.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] And to talk more about your, um, your teaching, your sense of being a teacher. And we haven't really spent a lot of time talking about what your life was like within the university in terms of being in the classroom. Your students were university students. They were the elite women of Korea.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And your job was to teach them a conversational English.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] And to talk more about your, um, your teaching, your sense of being a teacher. And we haven't really spent a lot of time talking about what your life was like within the university in terms of being in the classroom. Your students were university students. They were the elite women of Korea.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And your job was to teach them a conversational English.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] So who, um, were there other Americans on the staff? Were there other native American teachers? Were you the only one? Well, I mean, native speakers of English.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And your job was to teach them a conversational English.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] So who, um, were there other Americans on the staff? Were there other native American teachers? Were you the only one? Well, I mean, native speakers of English.

[User] There was this other volunteer that, a woman volunteer who did it too. But we were assigned, we had responsibilities individually. So I was assigned to conduct, plan and conduct and grade students in a classroom setting at a college level.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Had the other Peace Corps volunteer been there before you got there, was she the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] So who, um, were there other Americans on the staff? Were there other native American teachers? Were you the only one? Well, I mean, native speakers of English.

[User] There was this other volunteer that, a woman volunteer who did it too. But we were assigned, we had responsibilities individually. So I was assigned to conduct, plan and conduct and grade students in a classroom setting at a college level.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Had the other Peace Corps volunteer been there before you got there, was she the?

[User] No, no. She came, she came with me. We were in the same training group.

[Assistant] Had there been other Peace Corps volunteers in that university before you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was this other volunteer that, a woman volunteer who did it too. But we were assigned, we had responsibilities individually. So I was assigned to conduct, plan and conduct and grade students in a classroom setting at a college level.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Had the other Peace Corps volunteer been there before you got there, was she the?

[User] No, no. She came, she came with me. We were in the same training group.

[Assistant] Had there been other Peace Corps volunteers in that university before you got there?

[User] Uh, possibly. I don't know for sure.

[Assistant] So you didn't overlap. So there wasn't anybody in your own culture who could guide you into doing this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. She came, she came with me. We were in the same training group.

[Assistant] Had there been other Peace Corps volunteers in that university before you got there?

[User] Uh, possibly. I don't know for sure.

[Assistant] So you didn't overlap. So there wasn't anybody in your own culture who could guide you into doing this?

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were you the only two non Koreans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were you the only two non Koreans?

[User] In the department of teaching English as a foreign language, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There were non Koreans. There was a woman, a French woman, who was teaching French, and I imagine there were some others too. But I specifically remember her.

[Assistant] Yeah. So in your classes, how, how big, how many students were in a room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the department of teaching English as a foreign language, yes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] There were non Koreans. There was a woman, a French woman, who was teaching French, and I imagine there were some others too. But I specifically remember her.

[Assistant] Yeah. So in your classes, how, how big, how many students were in a room?

[User] Probably 30.

[Assistant] Oh, and you're supposed to do conversational English among, in a class of 30?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were non Koreans. There was a woman, a French woman, who was teaching French, and I imagine there were some others too. But I specifically remember her.

[Assistant] Yeah. So in your classes, how, how big, how many students were in a room?

[User] Probably 30.

[Assistant] Oh, and you're supposed to do conversational English among, in a class of 30?

[User] In a class of 30.

[Assistant] How did you do that? The class would last, what, an hour or so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In a class of 30.

[Assistant] How did you do that? The class would last, what, an hour or so?

[User] Yeah. A standard maybe 50 minutes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was not easy partly because these women were socialized to be extremely polite and to do what the teacher wanted rather than be spontaneous and, uh, and strike out on their own, if you will, linguistically.

[Assistant] Did you have text books that you were expected to follow chapter by chapter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. A standard maybe 50 minutes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was not easy partly because these women were socialized to be extremely polite and to do what the teacher wanted rather than be spontaneous and, uh, and strike out on their own, if you will, linguistically.

[Assistant] Did you have text books that you were expected to follow chapter by chapter?

[User] No. We were expected to come up with our own. Our own system. There might have been textbooks, but they certainly weren't. I don't remember following a textbook. It might have been there as a guide.

[Assistant] So you had to create your own curriculum, prepare your own materials?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was not easy partly because these women were socialized to be extremely polite and to do what the teacher wanted rather than be spontaneous and, uh, and strike out on their own, if you will, linguistically.

[Assistant] Did you have text books that you were expected to follow chapter by chapter?

[User] No. We were expected to come up with our own. Our own system. There might have been textbooks, but they certainly weren't. I don't remember following a textbook. It might have been there as a guide.

[Assistant] So you had to create your own curriculum, prepare your own materials?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had Peace Corps training prepared, prepared you to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We were expected to come up with our own. Our own system. There might have been textbooks, but they certainly weren't. I don't remember following a textbook. It might have been there as a guide.

[Assistant] So you had to create your own curriculum, prepare your own materials?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. Had Peace Corps training prepared, prepared you to do that?

[User] Not quite, um. And I'm trying to, I mean, your question is a good one. And I don't know why I don't have a clear sense of this, but I certainly got guidance from, from Kim Yung Sook about what to do. She might have guided me toward, you know, certain lesson objectives.

[Assistant] Were you given a chance to observe her teaching class?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not quite, um. And I'm trying to, I mean, your question is a good one. And I don't know why I don't have a clear sense of this, but I certainly got guidance from, from Kim Yung Sook about what to do. She might have guided me toward, you know, certain lesson objectives.

[Assistant] Were you given a chance to observe her teaching class?

[User] No, no. No. I mean, we were, we were put in with the understanding that we had enough competence that we could perform this task.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And that expectation is, is a, is a formative expectation, because even if you don't know how to perform that task, you make sure that you look like you know how to perform that task. And if you do that long enough, eventually you're performing that task.

[Assistant] So did you divide them up into small groups within the classroom of 30 or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. No. I mean, we were, we were put in with the understanding that we had enough competence that we could perform this task.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And that expectation is, is a, is a formative expectation, because even if you don't know how to perform that task, you make sure that you look like you know how to perform that task. And if you do that long enough, eventually you're performing that task.

[Assistant] So did you divide them up into small groups within the classroom of 30 or?

[User] That was not possible.

[Assistant] It had to be whole group conversation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was not possible.

[Assistant] It had to be whole group conversation?

[User] Well, the idea, unfortunately, because of the Korean schooling system, what they were used to was resuscitation and memorization.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They could memorize huge chunks of text.

[Assistant] Yes. So you maybe would.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the idea, unfortunately, because of the Korean schooling system, what they were used to was resuscitation and memorization.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They could memorize huge chunks of text.

[Assistant] Yes. So you maybe would.

[User] They could memorize Shakespeare.

[Assistant] You'd have a dialog or something that you'd think up and have them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They could memorize huge chunks of text.

[Assistant] Yes. So you maybe would.

[User] They could memorize Shakespeare.

[Assistant] You'd have a dialog or something that you'd think up and have them?

[User] It was very hard to engage them in a dialog. They, they were, they would have been happy if I had handed them, you know, a first act of a Shakespearean play and told them to memorize it and come back the next day and recite it. They would have been able to do that excellently.

[Assistant] But that's not going to help them along in conversational English.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. So I was bucking all of their socialization.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] Yeah. Which was, you know, you don't say, you, you do, but you learn what the teacher tells you and you repeat it back like a parrot.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you don't ask questions and you don't set out on your own.

[Assistant] Yes. But knowing how to ask a question is paramount in a conversation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you don't ask questions and you don't set out on your own.

[Assistant] Yes. But knowing how to ask a question is paramount in a conversation.

[User] Yes. So you can see, you can see what, what the problem is.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] And to be willing to make mistakes. And of course, if you make a mistake, you lose face. And that is a serious, serious problem. And I think, uh. And I think it's a problem that is so culturally embedded that it persisted long after I left and to some extent may still be there.

[Assistant] I could imagine that had you been able to stay for years, you could then have been the person who'd write the teacher training manual of how to teach conversational English in Korea. You would have figured it out. You obviously figured out something because you felt good about your work. You were comfortable and you would have liked to have stayed longer. So you were figuring it out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, I figured out that they weren't going to volunteer.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, you know, I had a class list with all their names on it, and, um, and I would call on them, and I'm sure that was exquisitely painful for them. But in the absence of their volunteering, I had, I had really no, no recourse. And I was mindful of how hard it was, that, that they were, that they wanted more than anything to be very good students.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And unfortunately, their notion of how to be a very good student was almost antithetical to my notion of how to engage in teaching English at a conversational level, which is very much like a child learns a language. You make all sorts of mistakes. You have to make mistakes. There's no way not to make mistakes. And if you don't open your mouth and try to mimic what's being said or be more than willing to make a mistake, it's very hard to learn.

[Assistant] That's right. That's right. I'm assuming you had no discipline problems. You, first of all, you're in a university. You're not in a middle school. And the everything you've said would lead me to think that you didn't have to cope with discipline issues.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, you know, I had a class list with all their names on it, and, um, and I would call on them, and I'm sure that was exquisitely painful for them. But in the absence of their volunteering, I had, I had really no, no recourse. And I was mindful of how hard it was, that, that they were, that they wanted more than anything to be very good students.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And unfortunately, their notion of how to be a very good student was almost antithetical to my notion of how to engage in teaching English at a conversational level, which is very much like a child learns a language. You make all sorts of mistakes. You have to make mistakes. There's no way not to make mistakes. And if you don't open your mouth and try to mimic what's being said or be more than willing to make a mistake, it's very hard to learn.

[Assistant] That's right. That's right. I'm assuming you had no discipline problems. You, first of all, you're in a university. You're not in a middle school. And the everything you've said would lead me to think that you didn't have to cope with discipline issues.

[User] Discipline was a problem, but again.

[Assistant] In the opposite.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Discipline was a problem, but again.

[Assistant] In the opposite.

[User] In an opposite way, they were too disciplined.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They were too disciplined.

[Assistant] Did you have any supervision from Peace Corps staff? Did you have Peace Corps, uh, people from Peace Corps coming out to observe you teach or to give you suggestions or to answer questions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In an opposite way, they were too disciplined.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They were too disciplined.

[Assistant] Did you have any supervision from Peace Corps staff? Did you have Peace Corps, uh, people from Peace Corps coming out to observe you teach or to give you suggestions or to answer questions?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did anybody ever come out to visit you to see if you were doing okay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were too disciplined.

[Assistant] Did you have any supervision from Peace Corps staff? Did you have Peace Corps, uh, people from Peace Corps coming out to observe you teach or to give you suggestions or to answer questions?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did anybody ever come out to visit you to see if you were doing okay?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Either in your living situation or at school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. And I don't think I expected it. I mean, we were treated as competent.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Until proven otherwise.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And that.

[Assistant] Were you called in to Seoul for Peace Corps conferences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Until proven otherwise.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And that.

[Assistant] Were you called in to Seoul for Peace Corps conferences?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or continued training of some sort or other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that.

[Assistant] Were you called in to Seoul for Peace Corps conferences?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or continued training of some sort or other?

[User] We did. There were times when we assembled ourselves in the Peace Corps office and people came in from the country too. I mean, we did have to sort of report in, uh, I don't have a clear idea of what we did. I just remember that, you know, there would be something that we would all have to be processed through. I don't know if it was inoculations or medical exams. We had, we had to check in, I guess, and maybe be asked about how things were going. Nobody came to our sites. Nobody came to my site.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And did you, did you get some feedback from Peace Corps or was there any sort of evaluation summary process? You left after a year. You didn't leave at the end of the full two years. So where's the, was there any opportunity for you to reflect on what your experience had been while you were still in Korea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or continued training of some sort or other?

[User] We did. There were times when we assembled ourselves in the Peace Corps office and people came in from the country too. I mean, we did have to sort of report in, uh, I don't have a clear idea of what we did. I just remember that, you know, there would be something that we would all have to be processed through. I don't know if it was inoculations or medical exams. We had, we had to check in, I guess, and maybe be asked about how things were going. Nobody came to our sites. Nobody came to my site.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And did you, did you get some feedback from Peace Corps or was there any sort of evaluation summary process? You left after a year. You didn't leave at the end of the full two years. So where's the, was there any opportunity for you to reflect on what your experience had been while you were still in Korea?

[User] Yes. Um. There was, in effect, an exit interview.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. An interview?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, you know, I think it was more of a bureaucratic necessity. And, um, and I was given and I still have a copy that was prepared by the Peace Corps office in Korea, partly in Korean and partly in English of exactly what I had taught, the classes I had taught, and the number of hours I taught in the year that I was there at Ewha.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So that was documented.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And then we got on a plane and left. And it was very sad.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Would you, um, do you find yourself recommending to young people today that they join the Peace Corps on the whole? Would you recommend it as an experience for a young college graduate, or for an older person?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that you will not understand for a long time how life changing it was. That while you're in the country doing something as mundane as speaking your native language, you'll wonder what good am I and who cares? And why is this important enough? And how many lives am I going to impact or change? Um. And you'll ask yourself. My advice would be you'll ask yourself those questions. Your peers will be asking themselves those questions and you'll be asking them when you get together of each other.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Forget it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you, if you think you've done anything, you'll probably leave thinking you accomplished nothing, and you'll think you had an opportunity that was remarkable and you won't understand for a long time how, in fact, remarkable that opportunity was.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] But don't worry about it, because that seems to be a universal experience. Things are so different now in terms of communication that I can't even begin to imagine what a current Peace Corps experience would be like.

[Assistant] Yeah. Skyping home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But don't worry about it, because that seems to be a universal experience. Things are so different now in terms of communication that I can't even begin to imagine what a current Peace Corps experience would be like.

[Assistant] Yeah. Skyping home.

[User] Right. What I remember is standing out one winter night in the courtyard of the, of the Korean compound that we lived in, looking at the moon. And thinking, because I had had to go to the piantso at night.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Go to the outhouse.

[Assistant] The piantso being the outhouse. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. What I remember is standing out one winter night in the courtyard of the, of the Korean compound that we lived in, looking at the moon. And thinking, because I had had to go to the piantso at night.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Go to the outhouse.

[Assistant] The piantso being the outhouse. Yeah.

[User] Coming back and I'm looking up and it's winter and this moon is very, very bright. And the landscape below, in other words, everything below the moon, all the horizon. And it's all Korean. Thinking, how did that moon that I saw in the United States, how did that moon make its way over Korea so that it's the same moon?

[Assistant] The very same one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Over this completely alien landscape.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that image remains with me, and the communication available to us at that time was. We were halfway around the world.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the world was a very big, very round place. So halfway around the world meant if you sent out a letter, an airgram, it took six weeks to get there.

[Assistant] Six weeks to get there, so another six weeks to get, for a reply to get back to you wherever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that image remains with me, and the communication available to us at that time was. We were halfway around the world.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the world was a very big, very round place. So halfway around the world meant if you sent out a letter, an airgram, it took six weeks to get there.

[Assistant] Six weeks to get there, so another six weeks to get, for a reply to get back to you wherever.

[User] Right. There was no phone. You didn't call home. There was no Internet. There was no radio. The family we stayed with had a TV. And I remember they watched the moon landing in '69 and they invited us to watch it. And I wasn't interested for some reason.

[Assistant] Did you, did you have American? Did the Peace Corps provide you with a book locker?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the world was a very big, very round place. So halfway around the world meant if you sent out a letter, an airgram, it took six weeks to get there.

[Assistant] Six weeks to get there, so another six weeks to get, for a reply to get back to you wherever.

[User] Right. There was no phone. You didn't call home. There was no Internet. There was no radio. The family we stayed with had a TV. And I remember they watched the moon landing in '69 and they invited us to watch it. And I wasn't interested for some reason.

[Assistant] Did you, did you have American? Did the Peace Corps provide you with a book locker?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or with a subscription to Time magazine or something so that you could stay abreast of current events?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or with a subscription to Time magazine or something so that you could stay abreast of current events?

[User] Yes, there were, there were book lockers in the office, the main Peace Corps office in Seoul. People swapped out stuff. We could get redacted copies of magazines like The New York Times, like Time magazine, but they were redacted. In other words, the Korean government, it was still a military dictatorship and there was censorship. So, you know, large quantities of the magazine would be redacted out, missing, blacked out.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] So it was censored.

[Assistant] Censored mail. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there were, there were book lockers in the office, the main Peace Corps office in Seoul. People swapped out stuff. We could get redacted copies of magazines like The New York Times, like Time magazine, but they were redacted. In other words, the Korean government, it was still a military dictatorship and there was censorship. So, you know, large quantities of the magazine would be redacted out, missing, blacked out.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] So it was censored.

[Assistant] Censored mail. Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did, did your time in Korea affect your views about your own country, about the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was censored.

[Assistant] Censored mail. Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did, did your time in Korea affect your views about your own country, about the United States?

[User] Uh, yes. When we came back to the United States, I found that a lot of what I thought Americans did was crude, rude, impolite, sloppy, lackadaisical. Vain. Sort of aimless. I mean, the Korean culture is very cohesive as a culture at that time. Very homogeneous racially, um, and very much smaller than the United States. I think the land mass is about that of Indiana with a high density of population. So, um, America just seemed sprawling and unkempt and disorganized and all the things that immigrants come over here for, to, to get out of the strictures of their own small overpopulated, or even large overpopulated, but highly, highly, either caste regulated or culturally regulated.

[Assistant] So now you can look at your own culture somewhat through the eyes of another culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did, did your time in Korea affect your views about your own country, about the United States?

[User] Uh, yes. When we came back to the United States, I found that a lot of what I thought Americans did was crude, rude, impolite, sloppy, lackadaisical. Vain. Sort of aimless. I mean, the Korean culture is very cohesive as a culture at that time. Very homogeneous racially, um, and very much smaller than the United States. I think the land mass is about that of Indiana with a high density of population. So, um, America just seemed sprawling and unkempt and disorganized and all the things that immigrants come over here for, to, to get out of the strictures of their own small overpopulated, or even large overpopulated, but highly, highly, either caste regulated or culturally regulated.

[Assistant] So now you can look at your own culture somewhat through the eyes of another culture.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And which is a unique.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, yes. When we came back to the United States, I found that a lot of what I thought Americans did was crude, rude, impolite, sloppy, lackadaisical. Vain. Sort of aimless. I mean, the Korean culture is very cohesive as a culture at that time. Very homogeneous racially, um, and very much smaller than the United States. I think the land mass is about that of Indiana with a high density of population. So, um, America just seemed sprawling and unkempt and disorganized and all the things that immigrants come over here for, to, to get out of the strictures of their own small overpopulated, or even large overpopulated, but highly, highly, either caste regulated or culturally regulated.

[Assistant] So now you can look at your own culture somewhat through the eyes of another culture.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And which is a unique.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Which, which most Americans are incapable of doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Which, which most Americans are incapable of doing.

[User] That's right. You become bifocal.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And that bifocal quality never leaves you because you've, you've seen a different perspective.

[Assistant] Have you ever gone back to Korea? You left Korea in 1969?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. You become bifocal.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And that bifocal quality never leaves you because you've, you've seen a different perspective.

[Assistant] Have you ever gone back to Korea? You left Korea in 1969?

[User] '70.

[Assistant] 1970. Have you gone back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that bifocal quality never leaves you because you've, you've seen a different perspective.

[Assistant] Have you ever gone back to Korea? You left Korea in 1969?

[User] '70.

[Assistant] 1970. Have you gone back?

[User] I have not. The Korean government, uh, some years ago, ten or so, invited the Peace Corps volunteers that had served to come back for a week and, uh, to, to be sort of hosted and feted as a group by the Korean government.

[Assistant] Oh, how very special.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] '70.

[Assistant] 1970. Have you gone back?

[User] I have not. The Korean government, uh, some years ago, ten or so, invited the Peace Corps volunteers that had served to come back for a week and, uh, to, to be sort of hosted and feted as a group by the Korean government.

[Assistant] Oh, how very special.

[User] It was very special. I think.

[Assistant] They were going to pay for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have not. The Korean government, uh, some years ago, ten or so, invited the Peace Corps volunteers that had served to come back for a week and, uh, to, to be sort of hosted and feted as a group by the Korean government.

[Assistant] Oh, how very special.

[User] It was very special. I think.

[Assistant] They were going to pay for?

[User] Well, they paid for, for, they didn't pay airfare, but they paid for everything.

[Assistant] Once you're in Korea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very special. I think.

[Assistant] They were going to pay for?

[User] Well, they paid for, for, they didn't pay airfare, but they paid for everything.

[Assistant] Once you're in Korea.

[User] The week you were in Korea. And they made an effort to, a big effort to have you revisit your site.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The week you were in Korea. And they made an effort to, a big effort to have you revisit your site.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[User] I very much wanted to do that. But because of personal circumstances of my working, my family, health circumstances, I was never able to leave, I was never able to do it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the last opportunity to do it was October of 2013. So that's an opportunity I missed.

[Assistant] Yeah. Sorry. But might you go back on your own sometime?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the last opportunity to do it was October of 2013. So that's an opportunity I missed.

[Assistant] Yeah. Sorry. But might you go back on your own sometime?

[User] It's always there in the back of my mind, and I think it's always been there in the back of my mind since the day we left.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, I. Korea has changed so much now. It went from a third world country to a first world country.

[Assistant] Right. And Peace Corps for that reason is no longer there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's always there in the back of my mind, and I think it's always been there in the back of my mind since the day we left.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, I. Korea has changed so much now. It went from a third world country to a first world country.

[Assistant] Right. And Peace Corps for that reason is no longer there.

[User] And hasn't been there for over 30 years. So the country that I would go back to is not the country that I left.

[Assistant] That's true. That's true.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And hasn't been there for over 30 years. So the country that I would go back to is not the country that I left.

[Assistant] That's true. That's true.

[User] No way, shape, or form.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I'm ambivalent about going back to a country that isn't the country that I left, because the country that I left is the country that I miss.

[Assistant] That's right. And that you loved.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I'm ambivalent about going back to a country that isn't the country that I left, because the country that I left is the country that I miss.

[Assistant] That's right. And that you loved.

[User] And that I loved. And that country is now only existing in my 35 millimeter slides and in my mind's eye.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] But it doesn't exist anymore. And, and the globe has gotten very tiny. And communications can be instant across thousands of miles. So it's a, there would be no way to, to revisit what I left.

[Assistant] Have you maintained contact with people who were in your training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Good.

[User] Yes, I have very close friends that I have kept up with for the last 45 years, including their families and, you know, I would count them among my best friends. These are people that I could call up and say I'm coming and they would have a place for me to sleep.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Might be on the floor, just like in Korea.

[Assistant] Their door is open.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Might be on the floor, just like in Korea.

[Assistant] Their door is open.

[User] But their door is open.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And if I needed anything, they would come. And a group of us, actually, about 13 of us, got together last, over Labor Day weekend, long Labor Day weekend, five or six days in 2013. Four or five couples. Two of us were divorced, so it was just the women, but, um. And we had a wonderful time in Wisconsin. The couple that was the host had a family cottage on a small freshwater lake in Wisconsin, in Minnesota. And we had a wonderful time.

[Assistant] That's great. That's great. And then there's Friends of Korea, and you're connected with them in some way.