[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Women in Aerospace, that’s quite an organization too because some of the women have really [high level] jobs. They are astronomers, scientists, [the] chief scientist of NASA is a woman, and the biographies are really impressive. I don’t have much time to spend with that now; I spent a lot of time with that before. But I have been too busy with the NASA committees.

[Assistant] Tell us about your connection with NASA these days, what all that you’re doing for them.

[User] I was on the Advisory Committee on the International Space Station, and we kept track of the Space Station and our relations with the Russians and with other partners that we had, international partners. We kept track of the Shuttle and building the Space Station. Then that committee ended last October.\n\n They started a new committee this spring, and I was appointed to that. It’s the Space Flight Advisory Committee, and this is the one that deals with the Space Station, upgrading the Shuttle, the launching, they are trying to get launching at less cost, and communications. So we had a three-day meeting of that last month.

[Assistant] Are you finding old issues revisited, or are you still encountering new issues as the technology continues to change?

[User] I think there are new issues, like this commercialization and privatization. At the meeting, some people didn’t seem to know the difference between them. We have this problem about the role of the government and the role of the private industry.

[Assistant]
Let’s stop for a few minutes and take a break, and then we’ll come right back.\n\n [interruption in tape]

We were talking of different honors and different recognitions that you had received. When we were looking through some of the information that you had so graciously passed on to us, one of the ones that took note was one of last year when three Oklahoma high school students chose you as their topic to research and enter as part of a National History Day competition. They went on to the national contest.\n\n I was just curious what your thoughts were that these teenagers of today chose you to do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You always have to re-explain with the Congress, because I wasn’t working so much with the executive people, except now and then. I was working with the members of Congress, and of course they have to be briefed. When they come in, they need a briefing on these subjects. They have to have more than lobbyists. They really need to have the facts.

[Assistant] What are some of the hopes or the goals or even the assignments that you hope to fulfill and accomplish as part of your latest task with NASA with the Space Flight Advisory Committee? Are there some areas that you are looking to hopefully make sure get taken care while you are on this Committee?

[User] Yes. The main thing that I want is to have coordination between the Shuttle and the Space Station. You see, you have different periods of time when they’re ready. The Shuttle is supposed to service the Space Station, and it has to be upgraded. So the main thing that I am interested in now is being sure that they are both ready at the same time for whatever it is they are supposed to do.

[Assistant] You mentioned in a conversation that we had that you will be traveling to Florida in the next couple of months. Will you be for activities going on at the Cape, or are you going for a meeting?

[User] I think it will be a meeting of our committee, and they will have briefings from the staff.

[Assistant] Have you been able to witness some of the realities and the actions of all these laws of politics? Have you been to launching of satellites?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The main thing that I want is to have coordination between the Shuttle and the Space Station. You see, you have different periods of time when they’re ready. The Shuttle is supposed to service the Space Station, and it has to be upgraded. So the main thing that I am interested in now is being sure that they are both ready at the same time for whatever it is they are supposed to do.

[Assistant] You mentioned in a conversation that we had that you will be traveling to Florida in the next couple of months. Will you be for activities going on at the Cape, or are you going for a meeting?

[User] I think it will be a meeting of our committee, and they will have briefings from the staff.

[Assistant] Have you been able to witness some of the realities and the actions of all these laws of politics? Have you been to launching of satellites?

[User] Yes, I saw the Apollo Soyuz one. I saw one last time, and I think we’ll see one in September. It’s very thrilling.

[Assistant] It must be very heartwarming for you to know that they are going to space for those reasons that were first intended continually after all these years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it will be a meeting of our committee, and they will have briefings from the staff.

[Assistant] Have you been able to witness some of the realities and the actions of all these laws of politics? Have you been to launching of satellites?

[User] Yes, I saw the Apollo Soyuz one. I saw one last time, and I think we’ll see one in September. It’s very thrilling.

[Assistant] It must be very heartwarming for you to know that they are going to space for those reasons that were first intended continually after all these years.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Through your career you had a partner that was very essential to your success. You’ve mentioned before that your husband and your family were there right along with you as you were able to do all that you did. Could you share with us some details about your husband and how, if there were, at times that your work crossed or that you were able to benefit each other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t.\n\n My husband was field representative of the National Economic and Social Planning Association, and we had a trip of one year throughout the United States. We zigzagged back and forth between the southern states, and then we zigzagged back and forth through the northern states and really studied the United States. That was a wonderful experience. We met all kinds of people, interviewed all kinds of people, and especially it was not long after the Depression. There were still people in the south talking about the Civil War and so forth.\n\n I know we came to New Orleans and we met two ladies who were somehow connected with the community service. She asked my husband where he was born, and he said New York. Since I had been born in Missouri and my mother was born in Texas and my father was born in Louisiana, she said to my husband, “That makes even you all right.” [Laughter] He was a damn Yankee, as far as she was concerned.

[Assistant] It’s a good thing you were along.\n\n You’ve had so many adventures. As children grow up, parents will try to tell them that the sky’s the limit. You’ve even managed to exceed past the sky and through the stars.

[User] Yes. That was really funny.

[Assistant] I’d like to ask you as part of our closing that you’ve been referred to as an author, a lecturer, editor, advisor, consultant, researcher, expert commentator on space law and many other areas. How would you describe yourself?

[User] I don’t know. Someone else has thought of those words; I didn’t think of them. I just feel like myself. [Laughter]

[Assistant] And that’s it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That was really funny.

[Assistant] I’d like to ask you as part of our closing that you’ve been referred to as an author, a lecturer, editor, advisor, consultant, researcher, expert commentator on space law and many other areas. How would you describe yourself?

[User] I don’t know. Someone else has thought of those words; I didn’t think of them. I just feel like myself. [Laughter]

[Assistant] And that’s it.

[User] I really don’t know. I guess the main thing is that I like to deal with factual matters and solve problems, and when I solve a problem I try to think of the possible consequences. I think that is lacking in a lot of thinking, and you can’t be perfect at it because you don’t know everything that is going to happen. But I think to just say that you are going to solve a problem by doing this or that and not to figure out what the consequences will be is not thinking ahead. I do think that we’ve thought ahead for the 1967 space treaty, because it provides—we knew that if there were claims of sovereignty in outer space they would cause wars. That’s one of the things that causes wars is property claims and all. So we provided that there was to be no sovereignty in outer space [by means of use,] occupation or any other means. So we warded off a future war, future conflict.\n\n Meanwhile, we had what it took to unify people on the objective of peace. I think that is what I’m primarily interested in.

[Assistant] Were there areas that you had hoped to be accomplished that just didn’t make it to the packages and treaties or other people didn’t agree with? Were there some challenges or some—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. [It is “Space Law: A Symposium” published on December 31, 1958 by the Senate Special Committee on Space and Astronautics.]\n\n I put in the paper I wrote on the Community of Law and Science, and that was where I met—oh, and I put in Johnson’s speech. This was where I met Dr. [I. H. Ph.] Diedericks-Verschoor, who was an expert in aviation law. It was at The Hague in 1958 in August, this month, in 1958. I’m going to write her a letter. She was president of the Institute for a while and is a real expert on aviation law. So that’s very helpful.

[Assistant] Once you became so involved with the space industry as part of your job, were they still assigning you to other areas as well, or were you pretty much left to devote all your energy and focus into following this path?

[User] You mean while I was working on the Hill?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] [I never worked for space industry while I was working on the Hill or after I retired. All my assignments came from Members and Committees of Congress, and some requests from the United Nations where they invited me to speak at their fiftieth anniversary. My participation in professional space organizations has always been as a volunteer and in the capacity of a government-oriented objective researcher. My space assignments on the Hill were about every aspect you can imagine–exploration of the Moon and Mars, communications, remote sensing, navigation, international cooperation, solar power, regulation of orbits, relation of the military and civilian, appropriations–if any non-space requests came to the CRS, the front office] said, “Leave Eilene alone; she’s busy.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] I guess that was good news.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean while I was working on the Hill?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] [I never worked for space industry while I was working on the Hill or after I retired. All my assignments came from Members and Committees of Congress, and some requests from the United Nations where they invited me to speak at their fiftieth anniversary. My participation in professional space organizations has always been as a volunteer and in the capacity of a government-oriented objective researcher. My space assignments on the Hill were about every aspect you can imagine–exploration of the Moon and Mars, communications, remote sensing, navigation, international cooperation, solar power, regulation of orbits, relation of the military and civilian, appropriations–if any non-space requests came to the CRS, the front office] said, “Leave Eilene alone; she’s busy.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] I guess that was good news.

[User] I just didn’t want to be moved. I had an office in the corner of the building back of the Library of Congress. All the senior specialists were there, and I had a double window. This is remarkable in the government. I saw that they were always moving people. Somehow when anyone takes charge of anything, if it’s a grocery store, drug store, or whatever, they want to move things around. They want to move people. They wanted to move us all to the attic of the other building, which wasn’t air-conditioned. So I just collected lots of materials so whenever anyone came to the door, they would shake their heads. They knew they didn’t have room for me and that material anywhere else.\n\n But I just worked on all aspects of space no matter what [they] might be. I was there until I retired. I mean after I retired I could do some other things.

[Assistant] Did you work from your home once you retired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [I never worked for space industry while I was working on the Hill or after I retired. All my assignments came from Members and Committees of Congress, and some requests from the United Nations where they invited me to speak at their fiftieth anniversary. My participation in professional space organizations has always been as a volunteer and in the capacity of a government-oriented objective researcher. My space assignments on the Hill were about every aspect you can imagine–exploration of the Moon and Mars, communications, remote sensing, navigation, international cooperation, solar power, regulation of orbits, relation of the military and civilian, appropriations–if any non-space requests came to the CRS, the front office] said, “Leave Eilene alone; she’s busy.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] I guess that was good news.

[User] I just didn’t want to be moved. I had an office in the corner of the building back of the Library of Congress. All the senior specialists were there, and I had a double window. This is remarkable in the government. I saw that they were always moving people. Somehow when anyone takes charge of anything, if it’s a grocery store, drug store, or whatever, they want to move things around. They want to move people. They wanted to move us all to the attic of the other building, which wasn’t air-conditioned. So I just collected lots of materials so whenever anyone came to the door, they would shake their heads. They knew they didn’t have room for me and that material anywhere else.\n\n But I just worked on all aspects of space no matter what [they] might be. I was there until I retired. I mean after I retired I could do some other things.

[Assistant] Did you work from your home once you retired?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know that technology has affected your job as well, whereas at some point you might have been mailing packages back and forth internationally, now you’re able to fax information. That must allow you to get—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just didn’t want to be moved. I had an office in the corner of the building back of the Library of Congress. All the senior specialists were there, and I had a double window. This is remarkable in the government. I saw that they were always moving people. Somehow when anyone takes charge of anything, if it’s a grocery store, drug store, or whatever, they want to move things around. They want to move people. They wanted to move us all to the attic of the other building, which wasn’t air-conditioned. So I just collected lots of materials so whenever anyone came to the door, they would shake their heads. They knew they didn’t have room for me and that material anywhere else.\n\n But I just worked on all aspects of space no matter what [they] might be. I was there until I retired. I mean after I retired I could do some other things.

[Assistant] Did you work from your home once you retired?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know that technology has affected your job as well, whereas at some point you might have been mailing packages back and forth internationally, now you’re able to fax information. That must allow you to get—

[User] Yes. I’m very pleased with the fax. I got so many things from the U.N., first [from] New York and now [from] Vienna. Just yesterday I got three pages from NASA. My phone is fixed so that if there’s no one on the line—it’s the same number as the telephone. So if there’s no one on the line, I know it’s the fax and I can punch star 51 and it’s transferred up stairs and it comes through there. I think that’s remarkable, because I can’t walk up the steps very fast.

[Assistant] I’m sure it’s very different from the days when you typed with a manual typewriter with carbon paper.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I know that technology has affected your job as well, whereas at some point you might have been mailing packages back and forth internationally, now you’re able to fax information. That must allow you to get—

[User] Yes. I’m very pleased with the fax. I got so many things from the U.N., first [from] New York and now [from] Vienna. Just yesterday I got three pages from NASA. My phone is fixed so that if there’s no one on the line—it’s the same number as the telephone. So if there’s no one on the line, I know it’s the fax and I can punch star 51 and it’s transferred up stairs and it comes through there. I think that’s remarkable, because I can’t walk up the steps very fast.

[Assistant] I’m sure it’s very different from the days when you typed with a manual typewriter with carbon paper.

[User] I still type on my typewriter. But my old fax, which I really liked better, was just a tiny little thing, it makes these carbons like this. See, I made these for you. It’s better than the new fax for this because it goes through right away, and the other one if anything gets stuck you have to take the machine apart and I’m not good at doing that.

[Assistant] We all have our talents, and that’s not one.\n\n Why don’t we stop for a while and we can visit and see if there are any other topics we want to talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Apollo—oh my lord, I wonder if I can. Apollo had an airlock, an experiment airlock, that was attached to a hatch where you could put the airlock in and you could put experiments and expose them to the vacuum without having to get out of the vehicle. So there were up-looking experiments like looking at stars or whatever it was in the various spectrums like UV [ultraviolet]. That was one. There were medical experiments for [bone] calcium loss.\n\n [Pauses] Huh. Well, I flunked that test.

[Assistant] That’s all right.

[User] I’ve got to tell you one story. I have to go back, like old guys do. It was Gemini IV. I worked Gemini IV and we had several experiments in Gemini IV, and they were all stowed up behind the crew, up behind Ed [White]. I wish I could tell you which ones those are. I can go back [and find] it. At any rate, the day before launch one of the managers [came to me] and said, “We have taken off all your experiments that you had on the vehicle.”\n\n I said, “You have what? I worked on those damn things for a year. Why did you take them off?”\n\n He said, “Well, Ed is going to go EVA [Extravehicular Activity] tomorrow,” which was the first I’d heard of it. They said, “We’ve got to make room for that handheld gun and the hose and all that, so we took your experiments out.”\n\n And I said, “Well, that sounds like a reasonable thing to do.…”

[Assistant] So you weren’t involved then on planning for any of the EVA activities?

[User] No. That was held very close to the vest. That was, I think, after one of our Russian friends had [done the first] EVA. That was just almost immediately after that.

[Assistant] How did the principal investigators on those experiments react to that action, or did they understand it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. The people at the Shamrock [were marooned and] stayed. The people that came from home couldn’t make it [back home and] the people that were there had to stay. They did a land office business at Trader Vic’s, which was the bar in the Shamrock. That was a beautiful place. It’s a shame [it] had to come down.

[Assistant] Was the LACIE Program after Skylab, before Skylab, or was it kind of during?

[User] The LACIE Program was before Skylab. Can you tell me when Skylab was?

[Assistant] Skylab was in ’73 and ’74 when it actually launched. It launched in May of ’73 and went through the early ’74.

[User] I can’t remember. I think [LACIE] was before [that].

[Assistant] I believe the Earth satellites were launched in the early seventies, so that would make sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The LACIE Program was before Skylab. Can you tell me when Skylab was?

[Assistant] Skylab was in ’73 and ’74 when it actually launched. It launched in May of ’73 and went through the early ’74.

[User] I can’t remember. I think [LACIE] was before [that].

[Assistant] I believe the Earth satellites were launched in the early seventies, so that would make sense.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Well, I’m sure we can look that up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t remember. I think [LACIE] was before [that].

[Assistant] I believe the Earth satellites were launched in the early seventies, so that would make sense.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Well, I’m sure we can look that up.

[User] I forgot.

[Assistant] That’s all right. When Skylab was originally planned, Earth Resources hadn’t been planned as part of the package. Do you recall any of the discussion around that? Integrating it into Skylab, when that came about and how?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Well, I’m sure we can look that up.

[User] I forgot.

[Assistant] That’s all right. When Skylab was originally planned, Earth Resources hadn’t been planned as part of the package. Do you recall any of the discussion around that? Integrating it into Skylab, when that came about and how?

[User] No. I wish I could. I don’t recall that. But you’re right, it was not—primarily Skylab was observation instrumentation that looked at sun corona and the galaxy, NRL-type experiments, the Dick Towsey type. No, I do not remember how that came about.

[Assistant] That’s quite okay. What was the difference between integrating the whole process of experiments from Gemini, compared to the aircraft, compared to Skylab? Could you contrast some of the differences or how the process grew from one program to another?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’m working very diligently today, personally. I have a real personal interest in commercialization [of space and the Space] Station. If we go back to an hour and a half ago when I said that my dad came over and he said, “You owe a lot to [this country].”\n\n Will Rogers said it very well. He says, “It’s a great country, but you can’t live in it for nothing. You’ve got to give something back….”\n\n So I still have a very personal interest, and I’m going to continue in the pursuit of that. I’ve been working now part-time for one of the aerospace contractors here, and then also I do some of this on my own nickel.\n\n This is hit and miss. This is stuff I got out of the attic last night. I took the trouble to get it so, by golly, I’m going to read it.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] In 1970, in the Earth Resources Program, we had a visit from the U.N. Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, must have been thirty, thirty-five countries that came at that time to listen to where we [were] in remote sensing and what [benefits] there might be for their countries. That was in 1970.

[Assistant] That must have been interesting.

[User] Yes, it was. They were really nice people, very interested and very high up in their governments. They were just ordinary people. I think that that’s a characteristic of people like that.\n\n Let’s see. Let’s see here. [Referring to documentation] That’s my life story.

[Assistant] Okay. You’ve mentioned, as we’ve been talking, several of the people that you worked with, and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about some of the people that had a personal impact on your career or that you think were key contributors to the space program? Maybe you can mention some of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Thank you.

[Assistant] I’d like to ask you about your interest in physics and astronomy as a child. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[User] Sure. I can’t remember the time when I didn’t want to be an astronomer, from the time I was [four at least]. I remember I’ve always been fascinated by things astronomical, by the sky and the planets. I grew up in the fifties, so I remember watching\n\n Sputnik\n\n , but even before that, I knew I wanted to be an astronomer. I wanted to be lots of other things, too, but that among them.\n\n I grew up in rural Minnesota, so basically a Lake Wobegon kind of experience. I got a good education, and because of teachers, I thought I was interested in mathematics when I went off to college, but soon discovered that I was a better physicist than I was a mathematician, and my real interest was in nature, not in mathematics. So I was able to continue pursuing that.

[Assistant] How closely did you follow any of the space programs, like the Mercury and Apollo Programs?

[User] I followed them closely, but not fanatically, not as a hobbyist or anything like that. My family always had a subscription to\n\n Time\n\n and\n\n Life\n\n magazine, so I read everything and knew everything, and during some of the programs, I used to save the pictures. I was fascinated with the pictures, mostly the pictures from the spacecraft, that were taken during the missions, during Gemini and Apollo especially.

[Assistant] Did you ever have any interest in becoming an astronaut yourself at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I can’t remember the time when I didn’t want to be an astronomer, from the time I was [four at least]. I remember I’ve always been fascinated by things astronomical, by the sky and the planets. I grew up in the fifties, so I remember watching\n\n Sputnik\n\n , but even before that, I knew I wanted to be an astronomer. I wanted to be lots of other things, too, but that among them.\n\n I grew up in rural Minnesota, so basically a Lake Wobegon kind of experience. I got a good education, and because of teachers, I thought I was interested in mathematics when I went off to college, but soon discovered that I was a better physicist than I was a mathematician, and my real interest was in nature, not in mathematics. So I was able to continue pursuing that.

[Assistant] How closely did you follow any of the space programs, like the Mercury and Apollo Programs?

[User] I followed them closely, but not fanatically, not as a hobbyist or anything like that. My family always had a subscription to\n\n Time\n\n and\n\n Life\n\n magazine, so I read everything and knew everything, and during some of the programs, I used to save the pictures. I was fascinated with the pictures, mostly the pictures from the spacecraft, that were taken during the missions, during Gemini and Apollo especially.

[Assistant] Did you ever have any interest in becoming an astronaut yourself at that point?

[User] Yes, I thought it would be fun. It certainly was a fantasy, but it wasn’t a career goal, really.

[Assistant] When did you find out that they were going to be selecting Space Shuttle astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I followed them closely, but not fanatically, not as a hobbyist or anything like that. My family always had a subscription to\n\n Time\n\n and\n\n Life\n\n magazine, so I read everything and knew everything, and during some of the programs, I used to save the pictures. I was fascinated with the pictures, mostly the pictures from the spacecraft, that were taken during the missions, during Gemini and Apollo especially.

[Assistant] Did you ever have any interest in becoming an astronaut yourself at that point?

[User] Yes, I thought it would be fun. It certainly was a fantasy, but it wasn’t a career goal, really.

[Assistant] When did you find out that they were going to be selecting Space Shuttle astronauts?

[User] In 1977, I was finishing up my Ph.D., working on a fellowship in [West] Germany, at the University of Göttingen, and just saw a flyer on the bulletin board.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to apply at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I thought it would be fun. It certainly was a fantasy, but it wasn’t a career goal, really.

[Assistant] When did you find out that they were going to be selecting Space Shuttle astronauts?

[User] In 1977, I was finishing up my Ph.D., working on a fellowship in [West] Germany, at the University of Göttingen, and just saw a flyer on the bulletin board.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to apply at that point?

[User] Looked like fun. I had learned to fly while I was an undergraduate at Harvey Mudd [College, Claremont, California], and the job looked like it combined the three things I was really interested in, space, astronomy, and the intellectual challenge of it all, and then the flying aspect, which I liked, and also the physical aspect. I’d always been a jock, so I thought the physical challenge would be interesting, too. I didn’t think I had much of a chance, actually, but I was just finishing my Ph.D. I met all the requirements, so thought it sounded like fun.

[Assistant] Can you tell me a little bit about the application and the interview process from your memories?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was fun.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that?

[User] Yes, my reasoning was, since I was working on the suit, I wanted to get as much experience in pressure suits, period, as I could. Plus, flying in the WB 57 sounded really cool. So Kathy and I, Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan and I both got checked out in the WB 57, and my reason for doing it was to get experience working in a pressure suit. It’s a different kind of suit, but similar kind of experience.\n\n The price to pay for doing that was to learn about how the airplane worked and how the missions that the airplane did worked, and then to actually pull together and run a couple of missions. So I spent three weeks down in Miami at Homestead Air Force Base [Florida] doing microwave observations over the tops of thunderstorms for some scientist. I actually got a publication in\n\n Science\n\n magazine out of it.\n\n Then Kathy and I both went to South America to do an air-sampling mission with the WB 57, and flew from Houston to Panama, to Lima [Peru], to wherever you go, Montevideo [Uruguay], down south over the Falkland Islands. It was neat. That was a fun trip.

[Assistant] Sounds like fun.

[User] Long flights. Seven hours in a cockpit in a pressure suit. This is the classic one that—people always think that the astronauts in the Shuttle have eating out of a toothpaste tube and things like that. That’s what you really did in those suits. You have your applesauce out of a tube. Water out of tube, sticking in the hole in your helmet.

[Assistant] Can you tell me how you performed the experiments? What was your job in the plane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, it came from one of the earlier crews, maybe STS-[5], I don’t know. Joe. How embarrassing.

[Assistant] We can fill that in. Joe [Joseph P.] Allen?

[User] Joe Allen. They had launched a couple of satellites. I think that was the first time we’d used the PAMs [Payload Assist Modules] and launched communications satellites, and they called themselves the Ace Satellite Delivery Company, and I think it just kind of carried. So I think Joe Allen gets the credit for that.

[Assistant] Did you have the opportunity at all to work with the IMAX camera? You had mentioned the IMAX was on board.

[User] Oh, sure. We all did. Yes, we all did.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about the training for that and the difficulties or the ease with which you used it in space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no. No, not at all. No. Actually, Bill was a model payload specialist. He worked very hard. I mean, he was engaged. Physically, he was in better shape than we were. Oh, that was hard to say. That crew was in great shape, actually. He had no experience either in aviation or anything technical. He was a lawyer, so he had a huge learning curve, but that didn’t stop him from trying, and I think he knew where his limitations were. He wanted to jump in and help a lot of times, but just didn’t have the wherewithal to do it, but worked very hard and was incredibly enthusiastic.

[Assistant] In his book he says that you went out of your way often to help him. Do you remember any of the ways that you would help him?

[User] Oh, I’m just a nice guy, you know. [Laughs] This is one you may want to edit later, but a lot of the ways I’d helped him was just holding Steve [Steven A.] Hawley back. [Laughs] I’d say, “It’s not worth it, Steve.” Franklin [R. Chang-Diaz], too. That was Franklin’s line actually, to say, “It’s not worth it, Steve.” [Laughs] Because every once in a while, you know, when you’re inexperienced and you—he would just kind of get in the way, and being the personality that Bill had, wasn’t very good at getting himself out of being in the way, so there were times when you just had to kind of get him out of the way, and you had to be a little careful about how you did that.

[Assistant] This flight was actually delayed seven times.

[User] Oh god, I don’t know. Forever.

[Assistant] What was your reaction and the crew’s reaction to these various postponements?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh god, I don’t know. Forever.

[Assistant] What was your reaction and the crew’s reaction to these various postponements?

[User] It was funny. My first flight went off right on time, so I had no experience with that. One of my other jobs that I seemed to be on ever third or fourth flight was family escort, so I’d had experience on flights that were delayed with the families, so I’d seen it from that end. My response was different from the inside than from the outside, and I think it was the same as the rest of the crew when you have an abort. Steve Hawley was a good person to have around on that, because he had been through the abort on 41-D. Is that it? Anyway, the first flight of\n\n Discovery\n\n , where they had the abort on the pad at two seconds or something like that. A hydrogen fire and all that. So he had been through it, and that was good experience for us. And Hoot Gibson is just the best in terms of being able to technically fly the Space Shuttle. Probably John Young and Hoot Gibson are the best I’ve ever seen. It’s like the\n\n Apollo 13\n\n line; Hoot could fly a refrigerator.\n\n Anyway, so having them up there, and Charlie [Charles F. Bolden, Jr.] really worked hard and knew his stuff.

[Assistant] Can we stop?

[User] Sure.\n\n [Tape change]

[Assistant] Maybe we should go back just a little bit to the launch delays. You were talking about Steve Hawley being a good person to have along, and Hoot Gibson.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that a little bit?

[User] I was the founding member of the band Max Q, actually. Brewster [H.] Shaw [Jr.] and I are the founding members of Max Q. Max Q was a result of a party that we had after the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident, just kind of a morale-booster party that “Sonny” [Manley Lanier Carter, Jr.] was a big organizer of. So we rented the pavilion down at Galveston Park and we had a fifties party, basically. Everybody dressed up in hoop skirts and jeans and t-shirts.\n\n Brewster and I had played together a few times, just over at our houses, just sit around and drink beer and play our electric guitars or play our guitars, so we decided that we would get a band together. We knew Hoot could play, so we got Hoot involved, and then we found out Jim [James D.] Wetherbee was a drummer, so we invited Wetherbee to join us, and we got together and learned two or three three-chord songs for this party.\n\n It turned out to be so much fun that we kept playing. Then Steve Hawley joined the band for a while. That was really fun. That was a good pastime. We’d practice once in a while and we’d play at roadhouses or various parties or whatever. I guess they’re pretty good now.

[Assistant] I’ve heard them, yes.

[User] We weren’t very good. [Laughs] But it was a lot of fun. I mean, it was just kind of something to do, recreation, to have fun. We started playing softball again and all kinds of stuff like that.\n\n [Interruption]

[Assistant] Let’s talk about STS-26. You had already mentioned that George Abbey had called you while you were in Seattle. What was your reaction, and what was your family’s reaction to the news?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Laughs] Yes.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that day?

[User] Yes, I was down there. It was kind of lonely down there. My sole instrument is this little button altimeter that’s just bolted to the face of a locker, so that if you blow a hole in the cabin, you’re aware that you’ve got a hole in the cabin, basically. Actually, it was so that you could deploy the escape system at 10,000 feet.\n\n So you’re just there. I mean, you’re in constant communication with the crew. I had launched on the flight deck before, so I knew what was going on, but basically I had nothing to do but just kind of take it all in, so I just decided I was just going to relax and just go along for the ride and sense the experience. I kept track of my watch so I could note the time when the\n\n Challenger\n\n was lost, to know just what was going on at that point.\n\n The launch went incredibly smoothly. I mean, I didn’t think we’d launch that day. We all came out to the pad thinking, you know, this will be a good run-through, and then we launched, and absolutely flawless. We had less problems on this mission than on either of my other two.

[Assistant] Did you have any concerns during liftoff that something might go wrong, given what happened last time on the\n\n Challenger\n\n ?

[User] Well, not given what happened last time, but just given the nature of the beast, of the Space Shuttle. It’s just an incredibly complex, complicated conglomeration of parts and pieces. I always had concerns that something was going to go wrong, and I always figured that it was something that they hadn’t told me about. So, yes, launch is a very exciting, dynamic time and you are worried.

[Assistant] I understand there was a problem on the flight. The flash evaporator system froze up. Did that have any impact on the flight or the crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One day.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that day?

[User] Well, we had been given those shirts by the ground crew, because they wear them on Fridays. It was one of those days, you know, “We’ve got to take some pictures. Let’s wear our Hawaiian shirts and act stupid for a while and take some movies. Then we’ll have something for our post-flight stuff.” Basically, you know, that’s it. We have these things, “Okay, let’s put them on and take some pictures.”

[Assistant] Your crew also paid tribute to the\n\n Challenger\n\n crew on board.

[User] Yes, that’s an interesting story, actually. That’s another one of these things that tells something about NASA. We knew we needed to do something and wanted to do something to honor the\n\n Challenger\n\n crew. We kept asking for help from PAO, the Public Affairs Office, from our bosses, just, “Hey, what should we do?” and got nothing. So we talked about it a lot of times, “Well, what are we going to do?” and didn’t have anything.\n\n Finally, Dave Hilmers actually wrote a draft and said, “I think we ought to read something like this. We can divide it up and each read a piece.” So Hilmers was the one who really came up with the idea and the draft of what we were going to do. Then we brought it to the Flight Directors, to the folks on the ground, and said, “This is what we’d like to do. We’ll get some footage.”\n\n We worked it all out and we found a good pass over Hawaii where we could downlink it, and worked with [Charles] Lacy Veach, our CapCom, to coordinate it all. But Hilmers gets the credit for thinking of it.

[Assistant] What impact do you think that that tribute had on the agency itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s an interesting story, actually. That’s another one of these things that tells something about NASA. We knew we needed to do something and wanted to do something to honor the\n\n Challenger\n\n crew. We kept asking for help from PAO, the Public Affairs Office, from our bosses, just, “Hey, what should we do?” and got nothing. So we talked about it a lot of times, “Well, what are we going to do?” and didn’t have anything.\n\n Finally, Dave Hilmers actually wrote a draft and said, “I think we ought to read something like this. We can divide it up and each read a piece.” So Hilmers was the one who really came up with the idea and the draft of what we were going to do. Then we brought it to the Flight Directors, to the folks on the ground, and said, “This is what we’d like to do. We’ll get some footage.”\n\n We worked it all out and we found a good pass over Hawaii where we could downlink it, and worked with [Charles] Lacy Veach, our CapCom, to coordinate it all. But Hilmers gets the credit for thinking of it.

[Assistant] What impact do you think that that tribute had on the agency itself?

[User] The tribute?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Oh, none. Why do you say that?

[Assistant] I’m just curious.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The tribute?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Oh, none. Why do you say that?

[Assistant] I’m just curious.

[User] Oh, no, I don’t think—the tribute itself I don’t think had any—I mean, I think it was important for the—well, I take that back. I think it was important for the people, for the folks in mission control and for the engineers and the technicians who worked on the spacecraft, to have the crew acknowledged, because we tried to speak for everybody. I mean, that was the intent. Hilmers is a very, very clever, sensitive guy. And it was important for the families, I think, who needed that kind of closure. It was one more piece of closure for them to have somebody in orbit, on a successful flight, recognizing what their family had done.

[Assistant] How did you and your crewmates deal with all of the press? Obviously, this was a high-profile mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.\n\n [Tape change]

[Assistant] You were talking about\n\n Time\n\n magazine.

[User] Time\n\n magazine printed a double-wide, a full-spread picture that I had taken of the Shuttle just as it was touching down, and gave me a picture credit, so now I can say I am a published photographer. Usually they just give the credit to NASA, but\n\n Time\n\n went to the effort to actually find out who had actually taken the picture.

[Assistant] That’s great.

[User] So that was fun. So, being an integral part of STS-1 like that was fun, both trying to get the spacesuit ready to go and working on the malfunction book and being on the chase team. We really felt like we had become a real part, like a real astronaut by then, a part of the program, ready to go out and fly.

[Assistant] Let me just ask you a couple of general questions before I close out today. Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you think was your most challenging milestone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Time\n\n magazine printed a double-wide, a full-spread picture that I had taken of the Shuttle just as it was touching down, and gave me a picture credit, so now I can say I am a published photographer. Usually they just give the credit to NASA, but\n\n Time\n\n went to the effort to actually find out who had actually taken the picture.

[Assistant] That’s great.

[User] So that was fun. So, being an integral part of STS-1 like that was fun, both trying to get the spacesuit ready to go and working on the malfunction book and being on the chase team. We really felt like we had become a real part, like a real astronaut by then, a part of the program, ready to go out and fly.

[Assistant] Let me just ask you a couple of general questions before I close out today. Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you think was your most challenging milestone?

[User] Getting selected was certainly the most challenging thing. Contrary to popular belief, I think the job of being an astronaut is not all that hard. You’re in an incredible support system. You’re extremely well trained and provided with resources that you need to get trained, so if you’re a motivated person who has basic, good motor control and fairly smart, you can learn how to do all the procedures. It’s a little different for the pilots, I think, who have to have special skills and who are just really terrific at flying the machine.\n\n I can’t think of anything I had to do that was really hard. I found it all just very enjoyable. It took a lot of effort to learn how to work in the spacesuit really well, but it was an interesting challenge and fun. The people part of it is always a challenge, but my experience is that the people at NASA, not just the astronauts, but the support team and the folks in mission control and the hardware folks—\n\n [Interruption]

[Assistant] We are back, and you were talking about your biggest challenge, before the phone rang. You said your biggest challenge was getting selected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s for sure. The rest of it just came naturally. Being a person with a fairly short attention span, working within the system of going to endless meetings, working within the NASA system, which is really the one that Chris [Christopher C.] Kraft [Jr.], Al Shepard, Deke [Donald K.] Slayton, and those guys made up on how to run a space program, really functions well in terms of checks and balances and procedures. Learning to work in that system has its challenges, because you have to really carefully document and account for everything you do. So just working in that system was a bit of a challenge for somebody like me.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest accomplishment while working at NASA, if you had to pick one?

[User] I would rank the family support plan as one. I think that’s had a big impact on the quality of life of the astronaut program. Then just technically, I think the work that I did on the spacesuit made it a useful tool.

[Assistant] Is there anything that you think we’ve skipped over today that we should talk about before we end?

[User] Oh, there are a zillion stories. I mean, you could get hours and hours from everybody. This is probably okay for now.

[Assistant] I thank you very much for taking time today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Great place to be, and it was out in kind of a desolate area, and I remember when it came time to demonstrate that the airplane was airworthy to the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration], we had to take it out to a little airport runway that was four or five miles away. We would take it out in the front yard and run the engine up just to get time on the engine. Tie a rope around the tail and to a tree and start the engine and let it run just to get some time in. The morning that we were going to go out, we got up a little early and I thought we were going to tow it out to the airport, and Henry said, “Well, let’s put the wings on one more time and see if they fit.” So we did, and he checked the controls out and he said, “Tell you what. I’ll meet you out at the airport,” and he proceeded to taxi out on the street and took off on the street to fly out to the airport so that the FAA guy could then show up mid-morning and look it over thoroughly and see if it was safe to try and fly. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Did you have an opportunity to fly it as well?

[User] Oh, quite a bit, yes. Yes, I flew that an awful lot. It was a fun little airplane to fly. Very basic.

[Assistant] You certainly knew every nut and bolt that went into it.

[User] [Laughs] Yes. Yes. It took a little bit of time to get it rigged just right so you didn’t have to hold pressure on the control stick to fly so you could take your hands off, but it was a fun airplane to fly.

[Assistant] How exciting was it for you to learn that you were assigned to George Air Force Base and be on your way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, quite a bit, yes. Yes, I flew that an awful lot. It was a fun little airplane to fly. Very basic.

[Assistant] You certainly knew every nut and bolt that went into it.

[User] [Laughs] Yes. Yes. It took a little bit of time to get it rigged just right so you didn’t have to hold pressure on the control stick to fly so you could take your hands off, but it was a fun airplane to fly.

[Assistant] How exciting was it for you to learn that you were assigned to George Air Force Base and be on your way?

[User] Very exciting, because George was only forty miles from Edwards Air Force Base [California], and by that time I had my degree, and, while getting my degree, I saw an opportunity to apply some of the engineering that I had learned and decided that being a test pilot was probably a good way to fashion a more secure or more long-range career in flying.\n\n Plus I think there was a little bit of tugging. My parents were very, very supportive of my wanting to fly. My dad was a vocational agriculture instructor at the high school, and Mom was a teacher. They knew nothing about airplanes. Nobody in Chapman knew anything about airplanes, except the one guy who was a total airport bum, drunken bum, and he would fly over at Abilene [Kansas], and that was the only exposure they had. So it was really kind of tough, I know, for Dad to explain to all the faculty and his friends that his son wanted to be a pilot. [Laughs] I know he would have liked for me very much to have gotten into farming or agriculture of some kind, but he was totally supportive. Both Mom and Dad were very, very, very supportive, and I just totally, totally appreciated that.

[Assistant] George Air Force Base was a little bit far from them, too, so that was a big separation for you as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He loves to remind people.

[Assistant] It’s always nice to get that other side of that story.

[User] Right. [Laughs]

[Assistant] But when you applied to do Air Force Test Pilot School, he recommended you.

[User] He sure did. Probably one of the reasons was that I learned that I needed 1500 hours of flying time to be able to apply to the test pilot school. They didn’t say what kind of flying time, although they preferred it to be high performance. But at that time you really could fly most anything you were willing to devote the time to go fly, and we had a squadron based at George that did aerial tow-target work for not only air-to-air gunnery for our fighters, but also for the Army. They’d tow banners on long ropes for the people on the ground to shoot at. They flew old [Lockheed] P-80s [Shooting Star] and [Martin] B-26s [Marauder], nothing spectacular at all, but they were airplanes and they were flying time. So on days that I was not scheduled to fly in the squadron, and on weekends, I would go down and fly with them. Also, in the mornings, we had an old De Havilland Beaver, an old bush plane really that we would ferry people back and forth to our gunnery range, the range officers that score the targets and things, and I would fly it back and forth, again just to build up flying time.\n\n I learned later that Chuck’s philosophy was that the good pilots are the ones who have the most flying, who go after flying the hardest and take it serious, and I think that that probably influenced him to support and recommend me for the test pilot school more than anything else.

[Assistant] Could you share with us what that was like being in test pilot school? How did they start training you to move into your new position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We studied French. I had had I've gotten my first 10 years had been at Banneker Elementary, junior in high school in Catonsville, and French was the only language spoken there. And so I resumed the French when I was at Catonsville High. And we had a really strict, unforgiving French teacher. I can't remember her name which is just as well. And she gave us a test the first day we were there. And then she seated us, according to the test results, putting the top test level at the front. And of course, the last five people, I was number five and there was a white girl and the other three students, we got the lowest, the lowest scores. And she purposely, I think, embarrassed us by seating us like that, which is pretty un- adult.

[Assistant] Well, you did get into college and?

[User] I had a choice because I did I did manage to get a scholarship and I had a choice of going to the University of Maryland or I guess any campus within the University of Maryland complex. And I chose to go to Morgan State College, which by that time was in the University of Maryland complex, because I had had such a lonely time. I wouldn't say lonely but isolated time at Catonsville High School. And I thought, I don't need to continue doing this.

[Assistant] When you entered Morehead State, did you?

[User] Morgan.

[Assistant] Morgan. I'm sorry, Morgan State, did you have a career in mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a choice because I did I did manage to get a scholarship and I had a choice of going to the University of Maryland or I guess any campus within the University of Maryland complex. And I chose to go to Morgan State College, which by that time was in the University of Maryland complex, because I had had such a lonely time. I wouldn't say lonely but isolated time at Catonsville High School. And I thought, I don't need to continue doing this.

[Assistant] When you entered Morehead State, did you?

[User] Morgan.

[Assistant] Morgan. I'm sorry, Morgan State, did you have a career in mind?

[User] I was going to be a teacher. Everybody was going to be a teacher. At that time. I had I had English. I was going to teach English and I had a scholarship for that. And I was actually supposed to be part of that was to teach within the Maryland school system for two years afterwards. But when I was selected for the Peace Corps, that requirement was waived.

[Assistant] Why did you have an interest in teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Morgan.

[Assistant] Morgan. I'm sorry, Morgan State, did you have a career in mind?

[User] I was going to be a teacher. Everybody was going to be a teacher. At that time. I had I had English. I was going to teach English and I had a scholarship for that. And I was actually supposed to be part of that was to teach within the Maryland school system for two years afterwards. But when I was selected for the Peace Corps, that requirement was waived.

[Assistant] Why did you have an interest in teaching?

[User] Because that I think we were sheltered. And we you know, when I when I was a kid, I wanted to be a lawyer and I wanted to be a writer. But realistically, that's what most people did, young women and particularly young black women, that that was what we aspired to do because that was what was open to us or that's what we assumed was open to us.

[Assistant] And did you continue your French studies in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was going to be a teacher. Everybody was going to be a teacher. At that time. I had I had English. I was going to teach English and I had a scholarship for that. And I was actually supposed to be part of that was to teach within the Maryland school system for two years afterwards. But when I was selected for the Peace Corps, that requirement was waived.

[Assistant] Why did you have an interest in teaching?

[User] Because that I think we were sheltered. And we you know, when I when I was a kid, I wanted to be a lawyer and I wanted to be a writer. But realistically, that's what most people did, young women and particularly young black women, that that was what we aspired to do because that was what was open to us or that's what we assumed was open to us.

[Assistant] And did you continue your French studies in college?

[User] No, I took German, or German took me. I had some Latin, but I didn't get back into French until I actually until I joined the Foreign Service and was sent off to work. And my husband was sent off to Tunisia and I accompanied him and that's when I resumed the French.

[Assistant] Well, would you characterize yourself in college after your studies completed your studies as fluent in any of the languages you studied?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because that I think we were sheltered. And we you know, when I when I was a kid, I wanted to be a lawyer and I wanted to be a writer. But realistically, that's what most people did, young women and particularly young black women, that that was what we aspired to do because that was what was open to us or that's what we assumed was open to us.

[Assistant] And did you continue your French studies in college?

[User] No, I took German, or German took me. I had some Latin, but I didn't get back into French until I actually until I joined the Foreign Service and was sent off to work. And my husband was sent off to Tunisia and I accompanied him and that's when I resumed the French.

[Assistant] Well, would you characterize yourself in college after your studies completed your studies as fluent in any of the languages you studied?

[User] No, not until the Foreign Service. Well, and even in the Philippines, we were taught, as Peace Corps volunteers, we were taught Tagalog, which was called Filipino. And then we were sent to all different regions. There are more than 80 dialects in the Philippines. So none of us was sent to the Tagalog speaking region. And most, and of course, we used English mostly because our language was our fluency was not as good as the Filipinos fluency in English.

[Assistant] In college, did you do any traveling, have any extracurricular activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I took German, or German took me. I had some Latin, but I didn't get back into French until I actually until I joined the Foreign Service and was sent off to work. And my husband was sent off to Tunisia and I accompanied him and that's when I resumed the French.

[Assistant] Well, would you characterize yourself in college after your studies completed your studies as fluent in any of the languages you studied?

[User] No, not until the Foreign Service. Well, and even in the Philippines, we were taught, as Peace Corps volunteers, we were taught Tagalog, which was called Filipino. And then we were sent to all different regions. There are more than 80 dialects in the Philippines. So none of us was sent to the Tagalog speaking region. And most, and of course, we used English mostly because our language was our fluency was not as good as the Filipinos fluency in English.

[Assistant] In college, did you do any traveling, have any extracurricular activities?

[User] No, I don't. I think I was with the, what was it, kind of a home economics group that traveled to various colleges but nothing out, not outside of the country. I had not been on a plane before I went off with the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] But you went outside Maryland?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not until the Foreign Service. Well, and even in the Philippines, we were taught, as Peace Corps volunteers, we were taught Tagalog, which was called Filipino. And then we were sent to all different regions. There are more than 80 dialects in the Philippines. So none of us was sent to the Tagalog speaking region. And most, and of course, we used English mostly because our language was our fluency was not as good as the Filipinos fluency in English.

[Assistant] In college, did you do any traveling, have any extracurricular activities?

[User] No, I don't. I think I was with the, what was it, kind of a home economics group that traveled to various colleges but nothing out, not outside of the country. I had not been on a plane before I went off with the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] But you went outside Maryland?

[User] Oh, yes. And as I said, my mom was very adventurous. So we traveled, you know, around the country.

[Assistant] How did you become aware of the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't. I think I was with the, what was it, kind of a home economics group that traveled to various colleges but nothing out, not outside of the country. I had not been on a plane before I went off with the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] But you went outside Maryland?

[User] Oh, yes. And as I said, my mom was very adventurous. So we traveled, you know, around the country.

[Assistant] How did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] I thought it was part of Kennedy's campaign. And it was being touted that it was going to happen even before he became president in the and I took the exam my first opportunity. That was probably June of 1961, and I had a telegram. Well, I wanted to go to Africa and I told you why I want to go to Africa because I met all these students and because I'd seen those two documentaries which inspired me. But then I got a telegram offering me the Philippines. And the telegram arrived 12 hours after I had taken the Peace Corps exam.

[Assistant] They must have liked your performance on the exam.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. And as I said, my mom was very adventurous. So we traveled, you know, around the country.

[Assistant] How did you become aware of the Peace Corps?

[User] I thought it was part of Kennedy's campaign. And it was being touted that it was going to happen even before he became president in the and I took the exam my first opportunity. That was probably June of 1961, and I had a telegram. Well, I wanted to go to Africa and I told you why I want to go to Africa because I met all these students and because I'd seen those two documentaries which inspired me. But then I got a telegram offering me the Philippines. And the telegram arrived 12 hours after I had taken the Peace Corps exam.

[Assistant] They must have liked your performance on the exam.

[User] I think they were trying to get the program of the Peace Corps Act, which had just been signed and in March, I think so. I think they were trying to get the program off the ground. But I was certainly thrilled and looked up on the map to find out where the Philippines was. And, you know, and that's. Back to my mom, I mean, she let me integrate that school. She could have said, I don't want you going off to the Philippines. You know, she was very open and letting me soar as far as I could.

[Assistant] So she felt OK about losing her little girl for two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, about 20 years later, after I've been a Peace Corps volunteer and was back home, my mom said, you know, when you were offered the Philippines, I didn't realize just how far it was and when I took you to the airport, I saw you off and she was with a neighbor, went with her, and she said, I promised I would not cry. I didn't want you to see the last vision that had the last vision of me crying. So I kept my cool until you got on the plane. And then I fell apart. And my friend and I were walking back to the car and we went by this airport bar and the bartender came out and said, bring that lady in, she needs a drink. But you know, she had the courage and the foresight not to worry me about that, not to even tell me until I said, you know, I was probably 20 years later.

[Assistant] That is amazing. Do you remember how you felt when you received that telegram?

[User] I was almost I wasn't sure whether it was real. I mean, 12 hours, and then everything happened very quickly. We went to State College University, Pennsylvania State College, for training in July 1961, so. So that didn't give us much time to think. I was too busy planning. And then people were saying, well, why are you going off to volunteer? What about your career? What about your, what about a decent salary? What about buying a house? What about car? What about an apartment? And I said, no, I want to do this and I can do those other things later.

[Assistant] So when you got the telegram. You were ready to accept the invitation. Did you have any misgivings?

[User] No misgivings, none. No. I knew this was very special.

[Assistant] Certainly blazing a trail.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was almost I wasn't sure whether it was real. I mean, 12 hours, and then everything happened very quickly. We went to State College University, Pennsylvania State College, for training in July 1961, so. So that didn't give us much time to think. I was too busy planning. And then people were saying, well, why are you going off to volunteer? What about your career? What about your, what about a decent salary? What about buying a house? What about car? What about an apartment? And I said, no, I want to do this and I can do those other things later.

[Assistant] So when you got the telegram. You were ready to accept the invitation. Did you have any misgivings?

[User] No misgivings, none. No. I knew this was very special.

[Assistant] Certainly blazing a trail.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you went off to training and where was that again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No misgivings, none. No. I knew this was very special.

[Assistant] Certainly blazing a trail.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you went off to training and where was that again?

[User] There's a state University of Pennsylvania State College, State College, Pennsylvania, and that was a that was about six weeks of training, as I recall.

[Assistant] Ok? And all of the members of the group that you mentioned, are how many?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Excellent. So you went off to training and where was that again?

[User] There's a state University of Pennsylvania State College, State College, Pennsylvania, and that was a that was about six weeks of training, as I recall.

[Assistant] Ok? And all of the members of the group that you mentioned, are how many?

[User] There were 100 if my memory serves me correctly. They were 165 of us that went into training and 128 of us made it all through. And others who left. I'm not sure how many left on their own volition or others who were not selected. We had lots of tests, you know, kind of like, I guess, the kind of test you take to get into graduate school and then we had interviews, so we had to pass a security background. And that might have been a factor for some people. And we did have an interview with the psychiatrist.

[Assistant] So what kind of facilities were used in this in the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's a state University of Pennsylvania State College, State College, Pennsylvania, and that was a that was about six weeks of training, as I recall.

[Assistant] Ok? And all of the members of the group that you mentioned, are how many?

[User] There were 100 if my memory serves me correctly. They were 165 of us that went into training and 128 of us made it all through. And others who left. I'm not sure how many left on their own volition or others who were not selected. We had lots of tests, you know, kind of like, I guess, the kind of test you take to get into graduate school and then we had interviews, so we had to pass a security background. And that might have been a factor for some people. And we did have an interview with the psychiatrist.

[Assistant] So what kind of facilities were used in this in the training?

[User] Well, it was the university in the summertime, so we were in student dormitories and I had a dorm room with another volunteer who was in training. Ellen Brindle was her name. Wonderful lady.

[Assistant] And when you trained where it was in a classroom environment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were 100 if my memory serves me correctly. They were 165 of us that went into training and 128 of us made it all through. And others who left. I'm not sure how many left on their own volition or others who were not selected. We had lots of tests, you know, kind of like, I guess, the kind of test you take to get into graduate school and then we had interviews, so we had to pass a security background. And that might have been a factor for some people. And we did have an interview with the psychiatrist.

[Assistant] So what kind of facilities were used in this in the training?

[User] Well, it was the university in the summertime, so we were in student dormitories and I had a dorm room with another volunteer who was in training. Ellen Brindle was her name. Wonderful lady.

[Assistant] And when you trained where it was in a classroom environment?

[User] It was in a classroom environment and was mainly focusing on the culture of the Philippines, the history and then some of the methods of teaching, but the most significant part of the training was on the cultural sensitivity part. And there was a Professor Guthrie who was so perceptive and so enlightening on how each culture basically has the same values, but the priority list of those values can vary. For example, we in the U.S. like to think that honesty is at the top of our list, whereas in some Asian cultures, shame is often at the top of the list. So being shamed is more is less important, to be honest, than to make sure you don't shame somebody. That kind of thing. And that, as brash young Americans, that was something we really needed to learn because we know we were just out of college, most of us, and we wanted to express our opinions and tell it like it is. And that didn't always work. And we had to learn. I think some of those lessons from that cultural training have helped me throughout my life. And certainly as a diplomat, I learned a lot from that.

[Assistant] What did you think about the other trainees as a as a group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. It was a very interesting group, as I said, if only there were actually three African-Americans in the group and two of us made it through training there. The male applicant didn't make it for one reason or another. They were, as I said, 165 of us, 128 made it. Very friendly. We had a lot of fun. And, you know, we were back on campus again. And I remember there was a very nice watering hole where we would meet, have a few beers in the in the evening. It was almost like summer camp in a way. And everybody was very enthusiastic. And, you know, these were people coming from all over the country. So that in itself was a very unique experience.

[Assistant] Since this was the first training that Peace Corps had ever done, did you feel like it was good training?

[User] I'd say for the most part. I mean, we complained and we complained a lot. We also complained when we were overseas and we were young and looking for and expecting perfection. And it was it wasn't going to happen. Now I realize it just doesn't have to, period. But I think it was, as I said, the cultural sensitivity part of it was the best part, I thought.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to do any practice teaching and or was it mostly focused on cultural and language?

[User] Mostly on culture and language, yeah. I don't think there was another training period after we got to the Philippines at Los Baños, and that went on for about a month. So we have more training in the culture and more on the teaching aspects as well.

[Assistant] Did you ever find anything in the training to be funny?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd say for the most part. I mean, we complained and we complained a lot. We also complained when we were overseas and we were young and looking for and expecting perfection. And it was it wasn't going to happen. Now I realize it just doesn't have to, period. But I think it was, as I said, the cultural sensitivity part of it was the best part, I thought.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to do any practice teaching and or was it mostly focused on cultural and language?

[User] Mostly on culture and language, yeah. I don't think there was another training period after we got to the Philippines at Los Baños, and that went on for about a month. So we have more training in the culture and more on the teaching aspects as well.

[Assistant] Did you ever find anything in the training to be funny?

[User] I'm sure I did. I had the letter, I was just looking through some letters that I sent to my mom about the training that while we were in training at least one year in the Philippines. We had a typhoon come through and I had never experienced a typhoon and I'm describing how we were, you know, the dining room was flooded. We had to double up in the women's dorm because part of that, the ceiling was leaking. And at the time that seemed rather funny, probably wasn't. But it's probably funnier while reading it in hindsight than it was at the time. And then, and sometimes. We became very, very close as a group, and that was very heartening and we had a good time, we respected each other and we had a good time.

[Assistant] Everybody was destined to be a teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly on culture and language, yeah. I don't think there was another training period after we got to the Philippines at Los Baños, and that went on for about a month. So we have more training in the culture and more on the teaching aspects as well.

[Assistant] Did you ever find anything in the training to be funny?

[User] I'm sure I did. I had the letter, I was just looking through some letters that I sent to my mom about the training that while we were in training at least one year in the Philippines. We had a typhoon come through and I had never experienced a typhoon and I'm describing how we were, you know, the dining room was flooded. We had to double up in the women's dorm because part of that, the ceiling was leaking. And at the time that seemed rather funny, probably wasn't. But it's probably funnier while reading it in hindsight than it was at the time. And then, and sometimes. We became very, very close as a group, and that was very heartening and we had a good time, we respected each other and we had a good time.

[Assistant] Everybody was destined to be a teacher?

[User] At that time, yeah. That group, we some of us branched out after we got there. But yes, we were supposed to be teaching. We were actually supposed to be helping Filipinos learn, teaching English as a second language. And in the end, most of us ended up teaching the students directly, which I'm sure was much more rewarding.

[Assistant] Were the other trainees education majors like you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure I did. I had the letter, I was just looking through some letters that I sent to my mom about the training that while we were in training at least one year in the Philippines. We had a typhoon come through and I had never experienced a typhoon and I'm describing how we were, you know, the dining room was flooded. We had to double up in the women's dorm because part of that, the ceiling was leaking. And at the time that seemed rather funny, probably wasn't. But it's probably funnier while reading it in hindsight than it was at the time. And then, and sometimes. We became very, very close as a group, and that was very heartening and we had a good time, we respected each other and we had a good time.

[Assistant] Everybody was destined to be a teacher?

[User] At that time, yeah. That group, we some of us branched out after we got there. But yes, we were supposed to be teaching. We were actually supposed to be helping Filipinos learn, teaching English as a second language. And in the end, most of us ended up teaching the students directly, which I'm sure was much more rewarding.

[Assistant] Were the other trainees education majors like you?

[User] No, some of them were. Some of them were. They were, they were everything.

[Assistant] But they were all college grads?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that time, yeah. That group, we some of us branched out after we got there. But yes, we were supposed to be teaching. We were actually supposed to be helping Filipinos learn, teaching English as a second language. And in the end, most of us ended up teaching the students directly, which I'm sure was much more rewarding.

[Assistant] Were the other trainees education majors like you?

[User] No, some of them were. Some of them were. They were, they were everything.

[Assistant] But they were all college grads?

[User] They all college graduates. And we had one couple that was in their 50s, the Kennedys. No relation, no relation, and I mean, they were the most organized and the most probably the most effective volunteers. They were married couple. I would think they were the only married couple we had.

[Assistant] So during the period of training, did you feel confident that you were going to make it through and actually get to go to the Philippines?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, some of them were. Some of them were. They were, they were everything.

[Assistant] But they were all college grads?

[User] They all college graduates. And we had one couple that was in their 50s, the Kennedys. No relation, no relation, and I mean, they were the most organized and the most probably the most effective volunteers. They were married couple. I would think they were the only married couple we had.

[Assistant] So during the period of training, did you feel confident that you were going to make it through and actually get to go to the Philippines?

[User] As I as I recall, I felt quite confident and it never occurred to me that I wouldn't have gotten that far. And I didn't see any reason why I would be disqualified. And I didn't. I was only 22. I didn't have that much experience to warrant security issues.

[Assistant] And what types of things were you telling your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They all college graduates. And we had one couple that was in their 50s, the Kennedys. No relation, no relation, and I mean, they were the most organized and the most probably the most effective volunteers. They were married couple. I would think they were the only married couple we had.

[Assistant] So during the period of training, did you feel confident that you were going to make it through and actually get to go to the Philippines?

[User] As I as I recall, I felt quite confident and it never occurred to me that I wouldn't have gotten that far. And I didn't see any reason why I would be disqualified. And I didn't. I was only 22. I didn't have that much experience to warrant security issues.

[Assistant] And what types of things were you telling your family?

[User] My family was, my mother was very positive, very encouraging. Other people were incredulous. I mean, including some of my college professors. I mean, that I would take off and go off into Neverland, into the unknown when I could be pursuing a career. And they even though I was teaching at some, didn't see it as a career. They just saw it as, how much money would you be making when they learned we would only make the equivalent of what a Filipino teacher would make, which at that time was 52 dollars a month. They didn't understand why, but there were I mean, there were so many others who were that the scale was tipped on those that were really happy and excited that I was going and willing to go along with this adventure with me in terms of tell us what you're doing right us. And when I wrote back to my mom, it was like writing to the whole family because the letters were shared by everybody, even when I was in training.

[Assistant] So what kinds of things did you have to say during training in the communication with your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I as I recall, I felt quite confident and it never occurred to me that I wouldn't have gotten that far. And I didn't see any reason why I would be disqualified. And I didn't. I was only 22. I didn't have that much experience to warrant security issues.

[Assistant] And what types of things were you telling your family?

[User] My family was, my mother was very positive, very encouraging. Other people were incredulous. I mean, including some of my college professors. I mean, that I would take off and go off into Neverland, into the unknown when I could be pursuing a career. And they even though I was teaching at some, didn't see it as a career. They just saw it as, how much money would you be making when they learned we would only make the equivalent of what a Filipino teacher would make, which at that time was 52 dollars a month. They didn't understand why, but there were I mean, there were so many others who were that the scale was tipped on those that were really happy and excited that I was going and willing to go along with this adventure with me in terms of tell us what you're doing right us. And when I wrote back to my mom, it was like writing to the whole family because the letters were shared by everybody, even when I was in training.

[Assistant] So what kinds of things did you have to say during training in the communication with your family?

[User] How friendly, how friendly it was, how friendly the group was. And I remember now it was the first time that I had been in a welcoming integrated environment, a much more welcoming than what I had experienced in high school, so that was a whole new experience. And in some of my letters to my mother, I would I mention that. And I also mention it once we were in training and in the Philippines, that we got along so well. And I wondered how these same people would have gotten along in the States when in a community where there was much more pressure to be segregated.

[Assistant] After the training in the States, was there a swearing in ceremony or did that did you have a swearing in at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn’t that shocking because in training, we had seen a lot of films and pictures of the Philippines and Los Baños was just beautiful. It's a research center, right, research center. And we actually stayed in the area. That was a former Boy Scout camp. And as I said, we had two dorms and a big mess hall. And there was a there was a swimming pool, which wasn't very much of a swimming pool, but there was and there was a very nice town. And the town folks were very welcoming to us and we befriended some of them. And sometimes some folks would invite us to dinner, a few of us at a time. I have a picture of it, the town was roasting one of the little pigs for us, the lechon. We were just treated royally, I would say, almost the whole time we were in the Philippines.

[Assistant] So when you arrived, you went into a in-country training orientation. How long did that last?

[User] I think seem to recall it was about a month. And then we at that time, we didn't know exactly what town we would be assigned in to be assigned to once we left training. And all of that was sorted out. And then I was assigned to Magarao, Camarines Sur, which is in the southern tip of Luzon near Naga City.

[Assistant] So when you were given your assignment, did you have any input as to where it would be or did you take whatever was given to you?

[User] You took whatever was given to you. And I was in a household with three other women and we were all teaching, but I was teaching in the town of Magarao and the other three were in nearby towns. So in that sense, I was I was the luckiest to be able to teach in the town where I live, which allowed me to establish more rapport with the with the school and the townsfolk.

[Assistant] So you'd had this language training in Tagalog?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think seem to recall it was about a month. And then we at that time, we didn't know exactly what town we would be assigned in to be assigned to once we left training. And all of that was sorted out. And then I was assigned to Magarao, Camarines Sur, which is in the southern tip of Luzon near Naga City.

[Assistant] So when you were given your assignment, did you have any input as to where it would be or did you take whatever was given to you?

[User] You took whatever was given to you. And I was in a household with three other women and we were all teaching, but I was teaching in the town of Magarao and the other three were in nearby towns. So in that sense, I was I was the luckiest to be able to teach in the town where I live, which allowed me to establish more rapport with the with the school and the townsfolk.

[Assistant] So you'd had this language training in Tagalog?

[User] And then we go to Bikol and we didn't speak Bicolano.

[Assistant] So you found your Tagalog was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You took whatever was given to you. And I was in a household with three other women and we were all teaching, but I was teaching in the town of Magarao and the other three were in nearby towns. So in that sense, I was I was the luckiest to be able to teach in the town where I live, which allowed me to establish more rapport with the with the school and the townsfolk.

[Assistant] So you'd had this language training in Tagalog?

[User] And then we go to Bikol and we didn't speak Bicolano.

[Assistant] So you found your Tagalog was?

[User] Well it is there, for many of Filipinos, it was their second language, English being probably the third, the first being Bicolano. So certain words were useful, but you really did not need it to communicate. Thank goodness.

[Assistant] You could usually get by in English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we go to Bikol and we didn't speak Bicolano.

[Assistant] So you found your Tagalog was?

[User] Well it is there, for many of Filipinos, it was their second language, English being probably the third, the first being Bicolano. So certain words were useful, but you really did not need it to communicate. Thank goodness.

[Assistant] You could usually get by in English?

[User] Yes. And it was nice when you knew a few phrases of, you know, magandang hapon po, which is a greeting that you give to, to those you respect and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Definitely. I think that's true in pretty much every country. If you can't learn anything else, learn the proper greetings.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well it is there, for many of Filipinos, it was their second language, English being probably the third, the first being Bicolano. So certain words were useful, but you really did not need it to communicate. Thank goodness.

[Assistant] You could usually get by in English?

[User] Yes. And it was nice when you knew a few phrases of, you know, magandang hapon po, which is a greeting that you give to, to those you respect and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Definitely. I think that's true in pretty much every country. If you can't learn anything else, learn the proper greetings.

[User] The greetings and thank yous.

[Assistant] And indeed, those are very important. So how far away was your assigned school from the training site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And it was nice when you knew a few phrases of, you know, magandang hapon po, which is a greeting that you give to, to those you respect and that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Definitely. I think that's true in pretty much every country. If you can't learn anything else, learn the proper greetings.

[User] The greetings and thank yous.

[Assistant] And indeed, those are very important. So how far away was your assigned school from the training site?

[User] Oh, it was the training site was an hour from Manila in another direction. We took, it took us eight hours by train to get to Magarao and it was a very rough ride, an open car train. Now, transportation was, uh, had a lot to be desired in the Philippines, and even so, even every day transportation. A bus was not a bus. It really was a truck that had seats constructed on it, long benches. And you just piled onto the side of the open.

[Assistant] It was open to the elements.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The greetings and thank yous.

[Assistant] And indeed, those are very important. So how far away was your assigned school from the training site?

[User] Oh, it was the training site was an hour from Manila in another direction. We took, it took us eight hours by train to get to Magarao and it was a very rough ride, an open car train. Now, transportation was, uh, had a lot to be desired in the Philippines, and even so, even every day transportation. A bus was not a bus. It really was a truck that had seats constructed on it, long benches. And you just piled onto the side of the open.

[Assistant] It was open to the elements.

[User] It was definitely open to the elements, open to the vendors, hawkers. Every time you stopped to let more people in. In the back section was called the kitchen, where the cows, the chickens, livestock, the livestock was.

[Assistant] So when the sun was out, it was hot and when it rained?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was the training site was an hour from Manila in another direction. We took, it took us eight hours by train to get to Magarao and it was a very rough ride, an open car train. Now, transportation was, uh, had a lot to be desired in the Philippines, and even so, even every day transportation. A bus was not a bus. It really was a truck that had seats constructed on it, long benches. And you just piled onto the side of the open.

[Assistant] It was open to the elements.

[User] It was definitely open to the elements, open to the vendors, hawkers. Every time you stopped to let more people in. In the back section was called the kitchen, where the cows, the chickens, livestock, the livestock was.

[Assistant] So when the sun was out, it was hot and when it rained?

[User] It was always hot. It was very hot climate.

[Assistant] And when it rained you got soaked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was definitely open to the elements, open to the vendors, hawkers. Every time you stopped to let more people in. In the back section was called the kitchen, where the cows, the chickens, livestock, the livestock was.

[Assistant] So when the sun was out, it was hot and when it rained?

[User] It was always hot. It was very hot climate.

[Assistant] And when it rained you got soaked.

[User] Yeah, yeah and mosquitoes.

[Assistant] Where it was the same conditions that the Filipinos enjoyed, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was always hot. It was very hot climate.

[Assistant] And when it rained you got soaked.

[User] Yeah, yeah and mosquitoes.

[Assistant] Where it was the same conditions that the Filipinos enjoyed, right?

[User] Yeah, I don't remember malaria, though. I don't think malaria was an issue.

[Assistant] Were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah and mosquitoes.

[Assistant] Where it was the same conditions that the Filipinos enjoyed, right?

[User] Yeah, I don't remember malaria, though. I don't think malaria was an issue.

[Assistant] Were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?

[User] No, four of us lived in the town in Magarao, but I was the only teacher, only one working there. The others took jeepneys or the famous busses to their nearby towns.

[Assistant] Ok, so you worked in town, but the others had to travel every day for their job assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I don't remember malaria, though. I don't think malaria was an issue.

[Assistant] Were you the only Peace Corps volunteer in the town?

[User] No, four of us lived in the town in Magarao, but I was the only teacher, only one working there. The others took jeepneys or the famous busses to their nearby towns.

[Assistant] Ok, so you worked in town, but the others had to travel every day for their job assignment?

[User] Yes. And I could walk from my house to the school.

[Assistant] In terms of staying in touch with other trainees from the group, were you able to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, four of us lived in the town in Magarao, but I was the only teacher, only one working there. The others took jeepneys or the famous busses to their nearby towns.

[Assistant] Ok, so you worked in town, but the others had to travel every day for their job assignment?

[User] Yes. And I could walk from my house to the school.

[Assistant] In terms of staying in touch with other trainees from the group, were you able to?

[User] Oh, yes, we are. We had a network and we could go visit different. Most of us were in households of four, but somehow we managed to accommodate if people stayed over or nearby, even nearby Filipina families with Filipino families would help us. But we visited a lot. We had a lot of exchange and we had a Peace Corps volunteer leader who would travel from one household to the next to see what we needed. And he was also kind of the, you know, the region gossip. So we would find out what this group was doing, what that group was doing. Kept us in touch. The Peace Corps, I think, was very supportive, you know, when we arrived and they gave us kind of a care package which had several books in it. Well, mainly books, a book locker is what it was. But my mother was also so.

[Assistant] When you would go to visit other volunteers, you would do what in your visits?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And I could walk from my house to the school.

[Assistant] In terms of staying in touch with other trainees from the group, were you able to?

[User] Oh, yes, we are. We had a network and we could go visit different. Most of us were in households of four, but somehow we managed to accommodate if people stayed over or nearby, even nearby Filipina families with Filipino families would help us. But we visited a lot. We had a lot of exchange and we had a Peace Corps volunteer leader who would travel from one household to the next to see what we needed. And he was also kind of the, you know, the region gossip. So we would find out what this group was doing, what that group was doing. Kept us in touch. The Peace Corps, I think, was very supportive, you know, when we arrived and they gave us kind of a care package which had several books in it. Well, mainly books, a book locker is what it was. But my mother was also so.

[Assistant] When you would go to visit other volunteers, you would do what in your visits?

[User] We played cards, we entertained each other, we cooked. One time, we had a march for a charity and we walked, I don't remember now how many kilometers, from Naga City to Legazpi. I do remember that my that my feet wore out, but it was a several hour walk for a charity. We also. My household and another household got together and devised a summer day camp for the first summer we were there. We solicited supplies from various companies and we got the counselors were high school students. By this time, my one of my classmates, my housemates had moved to teaching in high school. And so we had this network of high school students that were counselors for the elementary school students that we had and we used the school premises. It was very, very successful. And I'm still in touch with one of the counselors who since moved to the States and married an American and has a family here.

[Assistant] Did you have access to a telephone?