[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. They became family. Yes, indeed.

[Assistant] So, again, your sense of what two years meant in terms of, let's say in terms of Bolivarian development and then in terms of, you know, what did you bring back to the U.S.?

[User] You know, Bolivian development. Bolivia is the poorest country in South America. It has. The only time it wasn't the poorest country was when the deep tin mining was going on and the Hochschild and Patino families were ruling the country essentially and almost owning it because there was extraordinary wealth in Bolivia. But when tin became shallow mined and strip mined in Southeast Asia later, it no longer was economic to remove tin from deep shaft mines. And Bolivia is a poor country. Bolivia has huge challenges geographically, it is as large as Texas and California put together. It goes from mountains that are almost as tall as Everest to Amazon jungle. And it does that within a relatively small space, even though it's Texas and California and it only has the population of maybe four million people, something like that. So it is terribly, terribly challenging just geographically. I mean, it's Hannibal crossing the Alps. It's a very, very daunting country to get around it. Very difficult. I have great, great affection. I have not been back to South America at all. I've not been back to Bolivia. Our friend Ray has been back to Peru and also back to Bolivia, went back to his community, but again, you see where he had roots in that community because he lived there and did projects with him. We were essentially nomads when we were there. We really didn't sink roots in our community. We were we were the traveling side show, you know, and that's why we didn't have that.

[Assistant] It was a role.

[User] It was a role. And the Peace Corps told us it was going to be a role. And we accepted that role as we were expected to.

[Assistant] So on that score. You know, you achieved pretty much what you set out to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a role. And the Peace Corps told us it was going to be a role. And we accepted that role as we were expected to.

[Assistant] So on that score. You know, you achieved pretty much what you set out to do.

[User] I think we achieved, although there's certainly, you know, every time you use the word achievement, someone says, well, how do you measure it? What are you measurable here? Well, and and I can't tell you what the measurable goals are. I don't even know today how many volunteers there are in in Bolivia. Bolivia is going through a lot of challenges economically. You know, they’ve had a lot of upheaval because of ethnic problems with challenges. I know that that Clemente, our former boss, is still very active politically. He lives down in the Yungas now.

[Assistant] But in some ways, I mean, with many Peace Corps project people, the measure is in terms of someone like Tocio more in the number of schools we built or.

[User] Yes. Yes, it could be. It could be. On the other hand, you know, I always wonder what would have happened to Tocio had had he not left Bolivia. I think clearly he would have run away from home. But he may have he may have been he may have made a very sound contribution to his own country. I'm just not sure it's one of those things we'll never know. Unfortunately.

[Assistant] Anything else about your Peace Corps service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was, it ended up being a choice. But I must say, I was really nervous about, you know, sort of saying to the Peace Corps, no, you know, I don't want to do these other things for whatever reasons, you know.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] But they were very eager to, you know, this was the high point in Peace Corps' size. I mean, this was, I mean, I think that in 1966, which was a year before that, there were like 16,000 volunteers overseas. And so and they were expanding rapidly and wanted, you know, wanted people to join and were helping people to make, you know. And a lot of the positions were for what they called BA generalists, people who had social science degrees and no particular technical skills other than their major in college.

[Assistant] So then you accepted the position.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you got on a plane. And where did you do your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they were very eager to, you know, this was the high point in Peace Corps' size. I mean, this was, I mean, I think that in 1966, which was a year before that, there were like 16,000 volunteers overseas. And so and they were expanding rapidly and wanted, you know, wanted people to join and were helping people to make, you know. And a lot of the positions were for what they called BA generalists, people who had social science degrees and no particular technical skills other than their major in college.

[Assistant] So then you accepted the position.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you got on a plane. And where did you do your training?

[User]
Well, we started off with like a five-day staging in San Francisco before we went into training. And we were with a group from Tonga and a group from Samoa. So it was this massive event in San Francisco. I forget exactly where the event was. I know that we, that I stayed in the YMCA, which was where they put us up, which was in the Tenderloin District of San Francisco. So there were lots and lots of people around. And you were never even sure whether the people you were talking to were going to Fiji or not, because it was all this pre-departure staging where they were completing medical stuff and, you know, and physicals, and they were doing a certain amount of screening as well. In those days, Peace Corps had a fairly strict selection process, and it involved psychological evaluation by staff that were onsite, both at the staging and in in-country.

They did full field investigations on everyone. I remember that my barber told me that when I went home from school. My barber says, hey, the FBI was around asking about you. And I said, really, my barber? Anyway.

[Assistant] He's got great hair.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you got on a plane. And where did you do your training?

[User]
Well, we started off with like a five-day staging in San Francisco before we went into training. And we were with a group from Tonga and a group from Samoa. So it was this massive event in San Francisco. I forget exactly where the event was. I know that we, that I stayed in the YMCA, which was where they put us up, which was in the Tenderloin District of San Francisco. So there were lots and lots of people around. And you were never even sure whether the people you were talking to were going to Fiji or not, because it was all this pre-departure staging where they were completing medical stuff and, you know, and physicals, and they were doing a certain amount of screening as well. In those days, Peace Corps had a fairly strict selection process, and it involved psychological evaluation by staff that were onsite, both at the staging and in in-country.

They did full field investigations on everyone. I remember that my barber told me that when I went home from school. My barber says, hey, the FBI was around asking about you. And I said, really, my barber? Anyway.

[Assistant] He's got great hair.

[User] Huh?

[Assistant] He's got great hair.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we were there for that, at that, for that occasion. In part because we had just won the Friends of Fiji raffle and had two tickets to Fiji that had been donated by Fiji Airways.

[Assistant] That worked out well for you.

[User] Yeah, exactly.

[Assistant] All right. Well, we've compressed 50 years into a little over an hour here. Any last thoughts or did we miss anything?

[User] Well, uh. Just I mean the Peace Corps has had a lasting impact on my life in a lot of other ways as well. I mean, I continue to encourage people that I meet who are trying to figure out what next to do in their lives to consider Peace Corps, whether they are young people or older people. And, you know, I still count a lot of folks from Fiji as some of my best friends over the years. And so, yeah, I mean, I've had a number of other different kinds of jobs since Peace Corps, but probably none that would compare with two years as a Peace Corps volunteer. I still count those as the two best years of my life, other than the 44 years that I've spent with my now wife, Willa. But she too had a good experience I think in Fiji. And so yeah, so it's been, it was a good run and I'm glad for all of the opportunities that Peace Corps provided.

[Assistant] All right. Well, thanks very much, David, for the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] How long did that process take?

[User] A long time. I think it was like nine or ten months. It took a while. But you know, you're writing a lot, doing a lot, getting your medical exams, waiting to hear back. I mean, my life was comfortable, so I wasn't stressing about it. I had a good job and San Luis Obispo is a nice place to live.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So off I went and forever life changed.

[Assistant] So you did all your training in country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A long time. I think it was like nine or ten months. It took a while. But you know, you're writing a lot, doing a lot, getting your medical exams, waiting to hear back. I mean, my life was comfortable, so I wasn't stressing about it. I had a good job and San Luis Obispo is a nice place to live.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So off I went and forever life changed.

[Assistant] So you did all your training in country?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Was there any kind of orientation in the States before you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So off I went and forever life changed.

[Assistant] So you did all your training in country?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Was there any kind of orientation in the States before you went?

[User] We met in LA for a couple of days and did a little bit of orientation. I kind of don't remember much about it, but when we got to country then we all met up. And I don't remember the names of all the towns anymore. I think we spent about a week doing a little bit of orientation and then we split up into groups and went to a nearby village where groups of five or six of us were placed in villages, all I think within the same tikina, and did training roles. It was training relevant to what where our future assignment would be. So I was in environmental, so I was doing environmental kind of training and language every day and living with the family and learning the language and culture that way.

[Assistant] So you did the training in villages from very early on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Was there any kind of orientation in the States before you went?

[User] We met in LA for a couple of days and did a little bit of orientation. I kind of don't remember much about it, but when we got to country then we all met up. And I don't remember the names of all the towns anymore. I think we spent about a week doing a little bit of orientation and then we split up into groups and went to a nearby village where groups of five or six of us were placed in villages, all I think within the same tikina, and did training roles. It was training relevant to what where our future assignment would be. So I was in environmental, so I was doing environmental kind of training and language every day and living with the family and learning the language and culture that way.

[Assistant] So you did the training in villages from very early on.

[User] Yeah, which I think is a wise thing to do because they teamed you up with a family and then that family was supposed to treat you like the family, which is easy to do in Fiji because they treat everybody like family and everybody's related. But yeah, I lived there with a family and I was Ratu Siti to start with. Later when I moved to the Nadroga area, I became Lavo Siti, or Siti Vini.

[Assistant] Yeah, different dialect in Nadroga. When you had the orientation in LA, were there any Fijians that came to that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We met in LA for a couple of days and did a little bit of orientation. I kind of don't remember much about it, but when we got to country then we all met up. And I don't remember the names of all the towns anymore. I think we spent about a week doing a little bit of orientation and then we split up into groups and went to a nearby village where groups of five or six of us were placed in villages, all I think within the same tikina, and did training roles. It was training relevant to what where our future assignment would be. So I was in environmental, so I was doing environmental kind of training and language every day and living with the family and learning the language and culture that way.

[Assistant] So you did the training in villages from very early on.

[User] Yeah, which I think is a wise thing to do because they teamed you up with a family and then that family was supposed to treat you like the family, which is easy to do in Fiji because they treat everybody like family and everybody's related. But yeah, I lived there with a family and I was Ratu Siti to start with. Later when I moved to the Nadroga area, I became Lavo Siti, or Siti Vini.

[Assistant] Yeah, different dialect in Nadroga. When you had the orientation in LA, were there any Fijians that came to that?

[User] I don't think so. I can't remember though.

[Assistant] So do you recall your early impressions or your first impression? Like when the plane lands in Fiji, it's usually early in the morning. Do you recall how you felt when you're flying in there and what your first impression was like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, which I think is a wise thing to do because they teamed you up with a family and then that family was supposed to treat you like the family, which is easy to do in Fiji because they treat everybody like family and everybody's related. But yeah, I lived there with a family and I was Ratu Siti to start with. Later when I moved to the Nadroga area, I became Lavo Siti, or Siti Vini.

[Assistant] Yeah, different dialect in Nadroga. When you had the orientation in LA, were there any Fijians that came to that?

[User] I don't think so. I can't remember though.

[Assistant] So do you recall your early impressions or your first impression? Like when the plane lands in Fiji, it's usually early in the morning. Do you recall how you felt when you're flying in there and what your first impression was like?

[User] I remember writing, I journal daily. I remember writing in it on the plane, kind of just like in anticipation and then showing up. And I had done, because of surfing, I had traveled to tropical areas already. So when I landed there, it was that same kind of warm, humid heat and that smell that you'll get. It was kind of burning trash that you get in a lot of countries. And I was like, oh, this feels familiar and exciting. And I just got excited. And then I don't remember what we all did, but we all got on busses and drove from Nadi over to Suva. And I just remember looking at everything and taking it all in and being surrounded by a bunch of people that I didn't know but I felt connected to, all of the other Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] How big was your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. I can't remember though.

[Assistant] So do you recall your early impressions or your first impression? Like when the plane lands in Fiji, it's usually early in the morning. Do you recall how you felt when you're flying in there and what your first impression was like?

[User] I remember writing, I journal daily. I remember writing in it on the plane, kind of just like in anticipation and then showing up. And I had done, because of surfing, I had traveled to tropical areas already. So when I landed there, it was that same kind of warm, humid heat and that smell that you'll get. It was kind of burning trash that you get in a lot of countries. And I was like, oh, this feels familiar and exciting. And I just got excited. And then I don't remember what we all did, but we all got on busses and drove from Nadi over to Suva. And I just remember looking at everything and taking it all in and being surrounded by a bunch of people that I didn't know but I felt connected to, all of the other Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] How big was your group?

[User] 33 or 34.

[Assistant] Pretty good sized group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember writing, I journal daily. I remember writing in it on the plane, kind of just like in anticipation and then showing up. And I had done, because of surfing, I had traveled to tropical areas already. So when I landed there, it was that same kind of warm, humid heat and that smell that you'll get. It was kind of burning trash that you get in a lot of countries. And I was like, oh, this feels familiar and exciting. And I just got excited. And then I don't remember what we all did, but we all got on busses and drove from Nadi over to Suva. And I just remember looking at everything and taking it all in and being surrounded by a bunch of people that I didn't know but I felt connected to, all of the other Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] How big was your group?

[User] 33 or 34.

[Assistant] Pretty good sized group.

[User] Mm hmm. And I think most people made it all the way through. There's only a handful of people that had to leave for medical reasons. A couple of dropped out, but not many.

[Assistant] And was the entire group environmental or were some of them doing other things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 33 or 34.

[Assistant] Pretty good sized group.

[User] Mm hmm. And I think most people made it all the way through. There's only a handful of people that had to leave for medical reasons. A couple of dropped out, but not many.

[Assistant] And was the entire group environmental or were some of them doing other things?

[User] Now there's environmental. And there was, I think there was health. Some of them were doing some health. And what did else they do? People worked in some of the ministries doing things too. There's people doing economic development. Sorry, I can't remember. And then it was a mix, too. I mean, most people went to either villages or ministries and then a handful went to the Indian villages, or not villages, but the Indian kind of communities and helped out there. And that would, that's usually more urban. So. Yeah. It was varied.

[Assistant] Yeah. So by having the training in a Fijian village, that's kind of immersion from the get go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. And I think most people made it all the way through. There's only a handful of people that had to leave for medical reasons. A couple of dropped out, but not many.

[Assistant] And was the entire group environmental or were some of them doing other things?

[User] Now there's environmental. And there was, I think there was health. Some of them were doing some health. And what did else they do? People worked in some of the ministries doing things too. There's people doing economic development. Sorry, I can't remember. And then it was a mix, too. I mean, most people went to either villages or ministries and then a handful went to the Indian villages, or not villages, but the Indian kind of communities and helped out there. And that would, that's usually more urban. So. Yeah. It was varied.

[Assistant] Yeah. So by having the training in a Fijian village, that's kind of immersion from the get go.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, tell me about the village. Describe it to me and the house you lived in. And the family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, tell me about the village. Describe it to me and the house you lived in. And the family.

[User] The family? Man, I feel bad, like I've forgotten people's names. But the house was, it was a two-story house. And below was where they did all their cooking, cleaning. And then the house was upstairs. The village was somewhere, I think, north of Suva. It was kind of swampy nearby. So we got. There was mosquitoes, which I wasn't used to, the amount of mosquitoes there. But after two years, you're kind of used to mosquitoes. I don't think you ever like them, but you kind of get used to them. Um, and when people complain about mosquitoes here in San Diego, I just go, meh, not really.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But yeah, there was some bush around, but not. It was different than where I ended up because it was more swampy.

[Assistant] So it wasn't a remote village. It was pretty close into Suva.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But yeah, there was some bush around, but not. It was different than where I ended up because it was more swampy.

[Assistant] So it wasn't a remote village. It was pretty close into Suva.

[User]
No, it wasn't that close to Suva. I'd have to look up, look at a map, I can picture where it is on a map, but it's north of Suva, kind of swampy, not too far from the ocean, but not. I think you'd want to take like a mini bus to get to it. And it wasn't really like the ocean reef, it was more like a bay, a muddy bay and mangroves. And, you know, there was a villa or a town center that we'd go shopping at once a week. And I just remember my fondest memories are walking around in the bush with a cane knife and starting to learn about what you could eat and what to harvest. Because later on, when I was in my village on Sundays when I couldn't take church anymore, I would just go bush. I'd grab my spear and my cane knife and I'd just go out and I'd collect ferns and coconuts and spear some fish, catch an eel, and come home, and I'd have all the food I needed.

So those were the things I enjoyed. And so those are my fondest memories. Also just sitting around and laughing because Fijians laugh so much. So we'd always be cooking food and they'd be teaching me how to scrape a coconut. How to crack a coconut. Words, all the words that go with it. How to cook. And I remember they introduced me to rotis. I was like, I want to learn how to make rotis. So they're teaching me how to make the little rotis.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] On the fire, and I'm burning my thumbs trying to do it.

[Assistant] And these are Fijian women teaching you how to do it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, it wasn't that close to Suva. I'd have to look up, look at a map, I can picture where it is on a map, but it's north of Suva, kind of swampy, not too far from the ocean, but not. I think you'd want to take like a mini bus to get to it. And it wasn't really like the ocean reef, it was more like a bay, a muddy bay and mangroves. And, you know, there was a villa or a town center that we'd go shopping at once a week. And I just remember my fondest memories are walking around in the bush with a cane knife and starting to learn about what you could eat and what to harvest. Because later on, when I was in my village on Sundays when I couldn't take church anymore, I would just go bush. I'd grab my spear and my cane knife and I'd just go out and I'd collect ferns and coconuts and spear some fish, catch an eel, and come home, and I'd have all the food I needed.

So those were the things I enjoyed. And so those are my fondest memories. Also just sitting around and laughing because Fijians laugh so much. So we'd always be cooking food and they'd be teaching me how to scrape a coconut. How to crack a coconut. Words, all the words that go with it. How to cook. And I remember they introduced me to rotis. I was like, I want to learn how to make rotis. So they're teaching me how to make the little rotis.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] On the fire, and I'm burning my thumbs trying to do it.

[Assistant] And these are Fijian women teaching you how to do it?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It's an Indian flatbread. But everybody eats it in Fiji now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the fire, and I'm burning my thumbs trying to do it.

[Assistant] And these are Fijian women teaching you how to do it?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It's an Indian flatbread. But everybody eats it in Fiji now.

[User] Yeah, you know, it's like a burrito. So I was like, this is close to a burrito, but it's just got curry in it.

[Assistant] So how long did you stay with the family during training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, you know, it's like a burrito. So I was like, this is close to a burrito, but it's just got curry in it.

[Assistant] So how long did you stay with the family during training?

[User] I think that was about three months.

[Assistant] That long?

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] And a lot of language? Was it pretty intensive language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that was about three months.

[Assistant] That long?

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] And a lot of language? Was it pretty intensive language training?

[User] Mm hmm. We had to, uh, really every group had their own language trainer and they helped us with culture too. So there was the village and the family who lived us. And then there was an individual Fijian who worked with, worked for Peace Corps, who taught us. We did all sorts of lessons on language and culture and everything else. He passed away after I left. He was young too. And you know, that happened a lot. People would pass away. They just get something that's not a big deal to us. And then they'd do something like change villages and something that wasn't the correct procedure. And then they'd end up passing away.

[Assistant] Yeah. People die young.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe so.

[Assistant] And a lot of language? Was it pretty intensive language training?

[User] Mm hmm. We had to, uh, really every group had their own language trainer and they helped us with culture too. So there was the village and the family who lived us. And then there was an individual Fijian who worked with, worked for Peace Corps, who taught us. We did all sorts of lessons on language and culture and everything else. He passed away after I left. He was young too. And you know, that happened a lot. People would pass away. They just get something that's not a big deal to us. And then they'd do something like change villages and something that wasn't the correct procedure. And then they'd end up passing away.

[Assistant] Yeah. People die young.

[User] Yeah, but he was. Then they'd take us out for the night life too. And we went to some really rough bars.

[Assistant] Is this in the area where you were staying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. We had to, uh, really every group had their own language trainer and they helped us with culture too. So there was the village and the family who lived us. And then there was an individual Fijian who worked with, worked for Peace Corps, who taught us. We did all sorts of lessons on language and culture and everything else. He passed away after I left. He was young too. And you know, that happened a lot. People would pass away. They just get something that's not a big deal to us. And then they'd do something like change villages and something that wasn't the correct procedure. And then they'd end up passing away.

[Assistant] Yeah. People die young.

[User] Yeah, but he was. Then they'd take us out for the night life too. And we went to some really rough bars.

[Assistant] Is this in the area where you were staying?

[User] Yeah, I can't even remember the name of it, but I do remember they like kind of made a ring around us to protect us because it was such a rough bar. And I remember one night somebody even threw a big, like their big beer bottles across the room and it smashed on the wall. And we're just going, where are we? This is a bit scary. Because like I guess this is how you learn.

[Assistant] Yeah. So any, well other than the bars, any memorable experiences during training with your cohorts or your family that you stayed with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I'm sure they understand.

[User] But then they were told to be understanding and teach us that stuff. And that was what it was all about. You learn your place, you know, you learn. They were always telling you, you know, how to walk, how to talk, never to walk above somebody's head, never to touch their head. All these different little cultural things that the family was teaching you that you'd never get if you just went there. Because they wouldn't tell you and they wouldn't be told to tell you, so you wouldn't know. It's really important, when I look back. Without that, had they just sent me to the village, I'd be lost as anybody, you know. I'd eventually find my way. But it's not the same as walking into a village and knowing to bring kava. Knowing where to sit. Knowing how the ceremonies work. Knowing at least a foundation of the language. You just couldn't do it without, I think, those three months of training.

[Assistant] So you felt like the training was pretty good?

[User] Yeah. I mean, the, like I said, towards what we did, you know, what our job would be in the village. Every village is so different that they're just kind of giving you ideas of what you could do. The village is going to tell you what to do, but the training they gave you towards language and how to culturally interact was invaluable. So and there's a lot of other volunteers in Fiji from different countries that don't get anything like that.

[Assistant] Well, VSO, VSA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But then they were told to be understanding and teach us that stuff. And that was what it was all about. You learn your place, you know, you learn. They were always telling you, you know, how to walk, how to talk, never to walk above somebody's head, never to touch their head. All these different little cultural things that the family was teaching you that you'd never get if you just went there. Because they wouldn't tell you and they wouldn't be told to tell you, so you wouldn't know. It's really important, when I look back. Without that, had they just sent me to the village, I'd be lost as anybody, you know. I'd eventually find my way. But it's not the same as walking into a village and knowing to bring kava. Knowing where to sit. Knowing how the ceremonies work. Knowing at least a foundation of the language. You just couldn't do it without, I think, those three months of training.

[Assistant] So you felt like the training was pretty good?

[User] Yeah. I mean, the, like I said, towards what we did, you know, what our job would be in the village. Every village is so different that they're just kind of giving you ideas of what you could do. The village is going to tell you what to do, but the training they gave you towards language and how to culturally interact was invaluable. So and there's a lot of other volunteers in Fiji from different countries that don't get anything like that.

[Assistant] Well, VSO, VSA.

[User] Yeah, there's like a, yeah. But they're doing nothing like Peace Corps. They're not, they're not as ingrained into the culture.

[Assistant] Ah, right. And there's some of the NGOs that bring people in. So it sounds like you were comfortable and you adjusted pretty quickly. You were comfortable with the environment and the lifestyle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, the, like I said, towards what we did, you know, what our job would be in the village. Every village is so different that they're just kind of giving you ideas of what you could do. The village is going to tell you what to do, but the training they gave you towards language and how to culturally interact was invaluable. So and there's a lot of other volunteers in Fiji from different countries that don't get anything like that.

[Assistant] Well, VSO, VSA.

[User] Yeah, there's like a, yeah. But they're doing nothing like Peace Corps. They're not, they're not as ingrained into the culture.

[Assistant] Ah, right. And there's some of the NGOs that bring people in. So it sounds like you were comfortable and you adjusted pretty quickly. You were comfortable with the environment and the lifestyle.

[User] Yeah. I mean, there's always going to be the difference. I think Fiji is, it's almost like by nature communistic or it used to be anyway. And the fact that everybody kind of owned everything and personal space wasn't really understood, it was. And I always had a hard time with that because I'm OK being by myself and reading a book by myself or closing the door for a little while. But, you know, you get more and more comfortable with that. You just get comfortable with if I'm reading the book and you want to sit in my house and pick your toenails, so be it. You know, I'll just keep reading my book. We don't need to talk.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you went out to your, you swore in after training, and you went out to your worksite. What was the name of the village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there's like a, yeah. But they're doing nothing like Peace Corps. They're not, they're not as ingrained into the culture.

[Assistant] Ah, right. And there's some of the NGOs that bring people in. So it sounds like you were comfortable and you adjusted pretty quickly. You were comfortable with the environment and the lifestyle.

[User] Yeah. I mean, there's always going to be the difference. I think Fiji is, it's almost like by nature communistic or it used to be anyway. And the fact that everybody kind of owned everything and personal space wasn't really understood, it was. And I always had a hard time with that because I'm OK being by myself and reading a book by myself or closing the door for a little while. But, you know, you get more and more comfortable with that. You just get comfortable with if I'm reading the book and you want to sit in my house and pick your toenails, so be it. You know, I'll just keep reading my book. We don't need to talk.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you went out to your, you swore in after training, and you went out to your worksite. What was the name of the village?

[User] Biausevu.

[Assistant] How do you spell it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean, there's always going to be the difference. I think Fiji is, it's almost like by nature communistic or it used to be anyway. And the fact that everybody kind of owned everything and personal space wasn't really understood, it was. And I always had a hard time with that because I'm OK being by myself and reading a book by myself or closing the door for a little while. But, you know, you get more and more comfortable with that. You just get comfortable with if I'm reading the book and you want to sit in my house and pick your toenails, so be it. You know, I'll just keep reading my book. We don't need to talk.

[Assistant] Yeah. So then you went out to your, you swore in after training, and you went out to your worksite. What was the name of the village?

[User] Biausevu.

[Assistant] How do you spell it?

[User] B-I-A-U-S-E-V-U.

[Assistant] And that's somewhere you said around the Coral Coast?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Biausevu.

[Assistant] How do you spell it?

[User] B-I-A-U-S-E-V-U.

[Assistant] And that's somewhere you said around the Coral Coast?

[User] Yeah, it's. It's in Nadroga. Um, I mean, it's kind of dead in the middle of Coral Coast. It's, uh, if you know where the Warwick Hotel is, it's kind of inland from there, about two kilometers.

[Assistant]
OK.

It's just up in the hills. There's a big waterfall called Savu Na Mate Laya. And tourists always go up there and go visit the waterfall. And it's actually one of the main projects that I worked on was because of that waterfall.

Oh, really? What is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it's. It's in Nadroga. Um, I mean, it's kind of dead in the middle of Coral Coast. It's, uh, if you know where the Warwick Hotel is, it's kind of inland from there, about two kilometers.

[Assistant]
OK.

It's just up in the hills. There's a big waterfall called Savu Na Mate Laya. And tourists always go up there and go visit the waterfall. And it's actually one of the main projects that I worked on was because of that waterfall.

Oh, really? What is that?

[User] It's true. So there the village had somehow had a grant set up with the Ministry of Forestry to build a native tree nursery and update the trail leading up to it. And so the village could then reforest the forest with native trees because a lot of Fiji's hardwoods have been cut down.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so there's still some native trees and other trees that we'd go around and collect seeds from. And we built a nursery and the Ministry of Forestry came and we built the nursery, taught a lot of the youth how the whole thing worked. How to make the soil, how to prepare the seeds, how to plant them. And then when tours would come to go to the waterfall, they could pay their ten bucks to see the waterfall, but then they could also buy a tree, plant it somewhere on the trail up there. Because there's a whole lot of non-natives and with the idea of reforesting it. And it was also an idea that they'd offset their carbon footprint. And then there's also money in that grant to update the trail, because horses went up there and people went up there on foot. And uh. It was.

[Assistant] Trail must have been pretty bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was a New Zealander. He had money through, I think, a university. Sorry, if I had more time, I would have pulled out some of these documents that I still have somewhere. Anyways, so yeah, we work with. There's two, there was two main families and they were fighting over how this is going to work. So I said, why don't we just have both families do their own vuzi farm and then everybody's happy. And so we built two vuzi farms and we fenced off these giant areas to keep the pigs out. And it was, I made it into a youth project, so that everybody could get on board with the youth learning how to do something new, building these things, learning how to do a new style of farming, and then they could sell it and make the profits for their own youth group.

[Assistant] So they had lost the knowledge of how to do these dalo patches?

[User] Well, there was a few of the elders that we talked to that remembered their dads, like the old guys, some of the random old guys in their seventies, remembered their dads did it. But the thing was it, I guess when you read about it, they did it all the time pre 1800s. And then there was, I forgot what happened. There was a bit of a plague in Fiji and a lot of people died off. I forgot what came through, but it killed off a decent amount of the population, so they stopped doing it because it's so labor intensive to make everybody come out and build these kind of. They line them with giant rocks, kind of like.

[Assistant] Like a pit.

[User] Yeah, and then there would be mud in the middle. And so they stopped doing it and modern farming technology came and fertilizers and pesticides. So it became, you know, why do that if you don't have to? Fijians are really good at not working hard. Why work hard if you don't have to?

[Assistant] They're good at working hard when they want to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and then there would be mud in the middle. And so they stopped doing it and modern farming technology came and fertilizers and pesticides. So it became, you know, why do that if you don't have to? Fijians are really good at not working hard. Why work hard if you don't have to?

[Assistant] They're good at working hard when they want to.

[User] Yeah, I think they just know that right balance. But then I like I said earlier, there was a cyclone came through and it tore up all the fencing and knocked down trees and wiped out all the forests. And the project kind of fell apart after the first year because we couldn't redo all the fencing. There's no money to do it. And then the pigs got in there and ate the dalo. But the first year they harvested it all, they went around and sold their dalo, and it was a really cool project. And it was cool to teach them how to do it I think. And I learned so much too, just going around in the bush and clearing things with 15 guys and a bunch of cane knives and putting in fencing for I feel like miles.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was something that I have never done since.

[Assistant] In a jungle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think they just know that right balance. But then I like I said earlier, there was a cyclone came through and it tore up all the fencing and knocked down trees and wiped out all the forests. And the project kind of fell apart after the first year because we couldn't redo all the fencing. There's no money to do it. And then the pigs got in there and ate the dalo. But the first year they harvested it all, they went around and sold their dalo, and it was a really cool project. And it was cool to teach them how to do it I think. And I learned so much too, just going around in the bush and clearing things with 15 guys and a bunch of cane knives and putting in fencing for I feel like miles.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was something that I have never done since.

[Assistant] In a jungle?

[User] Yeah, in a jungle.

[Assistant] It's not an easy thing to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Off the side of the road. And you had to have nice flowers and medicinal flowers and all the drains around your house had to be dug out and cleared so that the water would drain away and you wouldn't have mosquitoes. And they would go through and they'd rate everybody's house. And then at the monthly village meeting, they would read out the scores to the houses and basically shame you into.

[Assistant] Embarrass everybody.

[User] Yeah, into getting your house nicer. And it worked, and it worked even after, you know, she started it, I kept it up, and they just kept on doing it on their own. It just became something that they did. It was like part of what the village did and it just seemed so logical, you know, like there was no money. Everybody had a benefit to it. The village got better. The only problem was there's still no trash collection system there. So all that plastic trash goes into a pit and gets lit on fire every once in a while. It's just awful when they light all that plastic trash on fire. But that one was, that was a cool project, because I don't know but I feel like they're probably still doing it. As toward the other ones, not so much.

[Assistant] How big was this village?

[User] Well, so we did it in five villages. It was the whole tikina. So we'd go around every week to a different village. So it was basically like we just would go around every five weeks and go to a different one. And it was always kind of an event. We'd meet up with people, go around and check every house, and then as always, once you're all done, you sit around and have kava and tally it all up. And then somebody brings out a bunch of food and you feel like you've accomplished something and you're full and kava'ed up.

[Assistant] So your job wasn't limited to just the village where you lived. It was that whole district there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, so we did it in five villages. It was the whole tikina. So we'd go around every week to a different village. So it was basically like we just would go around every five weeks and go to a different one. And it was always kind of an event. We'd meet up with people, go around and check every house, and then as always, once you're all done, you sit around and have kava and tally it all up. And then somebody brings out a bunch of food and you feel like you've accomplished something and you're full and kava'ed up.

[Assistant] So your job wasn't limited to just the village where you lived. It was that whole district there.

[User] It was the whole one. I, at first when I got there, I thought that I'd be more in the whole one, in the whole tikina. But all four of the villages were on the coast and you can just walk down the beach to them. But my village was about two kilometers inland, and I could walk down. You know, I could walk down the bush to there or I could walk down the road. But it's just, it kind of wears on you. So I kept that one to the five because it was just once a week to go to different villages. But the other projects I mostly just stuck all in my village. It was just a lot of walking.

[Assistant] So the village that you lived in, how big was that? How many families there?

[User] Oh, I can't remember. I think they said when the village is full, there was like 330 people live there, but it never felt like that. I felt like there's maybe 120 to 150 at any given time or less. And how many houses? Not that many. You can walk around the village pretty quick.

[Assistant] Yeah. And what was your house like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I can't remember. I think they said when the village is full, there was like 330 people live there, but it never felt like that. I felt like there's maybe 120 to 150 at any given time or less. And how many houses? Not that many. You can walk around the village pretty quick.

[Assistant] Yeah. And what was your house like?

[User] My house was actually kind of big for a house because it was, they were building a kindergarten and they didn't have any place to put me, so they put me in the kindergarten. At first I started out in somebody else's house because it wasn't finished, and then it took them, I don't know, three months or so to finish up the house that I stayed in. So I had like a little kitchen area, actually, kind of a big kitchen area, and then a really big room because it was supposed to be a kindergarten.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was, that waterfall I talked about had a creek that ran down. It ran right by my, right behind my house. And just tin walls, tin, no concrete walls, tin roof, doors, windows.

[Assistant] And you stayed there the whole time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My house was actually kind of big for a house because it was, they were building a kindergarten and they didn't have any place to put me, so they put me in the kindergarten. At first I started out in somebody else's house because it wasn't finished, and then it took them, I don't know, three months or so to finish up the house that I stayed in. So I had like a little kitchen area, actually, kind of a big kitchen area, and then a really big room because it was supposed to be a kindergarten.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was, that waterfall I talked about had a creek that ran down. It ran right by my, right behind my house. And just tin walls, tin, no concrete walls, tin roof, doors, windows.

[Assistant] And you stayed there the whole time?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] So no kindergarten?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, that waterfall I talked about had a creek that ran down. It ran right by my, right behind my house. And just tin walls, tin, no concrete walls, tin roof, doors, windows.

[Assistant] And you stayed there the whole time?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] So no kindergarten?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] They stayed in another building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Yeah.

[Assistant] And some of these projects you're talking about, obviously they don't happen overnight. So you might spend months working on some of these things.

[User]
I feel like, well, all the projects were happening simultaneously. There wasn't a beginning or an end to one. And I felt like some of them, like, would ramp up and there'd be a big push to everything. And then it would. I feel like this is maybe just Fijian culture. Something else would happen, like a funeral or a wedding, and everything would just stop abruptly. It didn't matter. Just all stopped. And for the next week or two is all about the wedding or the funeral. And then I'd have to slowly build the momentum back up and it will go, go, go, go, go until something else happened, a wedding, a funeral. Or Christmas. Christmas was a big thing. And Christmas, everything shuts down for a pleasurable amount of time. If we had a Christmas break as long as Fiji at Christmas break, it'd be nice.

But it was. You have to. You had to keep pushing and keep the motivation. And I think because you're alone and there's not a lot of other stimulus, it's really good to be able to keep that motivation going, because you've got to focus your energy somewhere. So the projects become, it'd become, you know, it's 24/7 on that project. And what you're doing there is also your life. It's everything. You know, you wake up and you're on. You're on the clock. You go to sleep. People knock on your door in the middle of the night and you can't say, go away, because you're there. You're supposed to be there in service.

[Assistant] So when somebody knocks on your door in the middle of the night, what are they looking for?

[User] They usually want something. Or the one time they wanted to sell me fish, because they catch fish in the middle of the night.

[Assistant] Oh, right, they go out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They usually want something. Or the one time they wanted to sell me fish, because they catch fish in the middle of the night.

[Assistant] Oh, right, they go out.

[User] They go out fishing and they want to sell their fish. But if you don't buy your fish right when they catch it, all the fish is gone by the time you're ready to wake up. You learn that quick. Somebody knocks on the door at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning and scares you. Siti! What? What's wrong? Siti, you want some fish? You're like, what? No, I don't want fish. It's 3:00 in the morning. I'll come back at 8:00. And I come back at 8:00. Fish is all gone, Siti.

[Assistant] I bet you learned that fast.

[User] Yeah. You gotta get it when it's ready.

[Assistant] So it was the Peace Corps experience a lot different than you envisioned it when you signed up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You gotta get it when it's ready.

[Assistant] So it was the Peace Corps experience a lot different than you envisioned it when you signed up?

[User] It was a bit, it was because everybody that I talked to previously went to South America somewhere.

[Assistant] Oh, right.

[User] Where I think culture is more similar to a Western culture and Fiji is not very similar to Western culture at all. So I think that it gave me, well, I just didn't know what to expect. I had no idea really what Fijian culture would be about. I had never really even thought about Fijian culture. But what it did do is it gave me, I feel like as much as I learned about Fijian culture and I could go back to Fiji and sit down at any village and be comfortable to where a lot of people couldn't and know what's going on when a lot of people wouldn't. I also was able to look at my own culture in this really bird's eye view and go, oh, why did I ever think this? Why was this normal to me? Because what is so normal to them, it's weird to me. They think the same thing about me, you know. So it was a really good cultural sharing experience of being able to learn, in retrospect.

[Assistant] And you just stayed for the two years. Did you think about extending?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a bit, it was because everybody that I talked to previously went to South America somewhere.

[Assistant] Oh, right.

[User] Where I think culture is more similar to a Western culture and Fiji is not very similar to Western culture at all. So I think that it gave me, well, I just didn't know what to expect. I had no idea really what Fijian culture would be about. I had never really even thought about Fijian culture. But what it did do is it gave me, I feel like as much as I learned about Fijian culture and I could go back to Fiji and sit down at any village and be comfortable to where a lot of people couldn't and know what's going on when a lot of people wouldn't. I also was able to look at my own culture in this really bird's eye view and go, oh, why did I ever think this? Why was this normal to me? Because what is so normal to them, it's weird to me. They think the same thing about me, you know. So it was a really good cultural sharing experience of being able to learn, in retrospect.

[Assistant] And you just stayed for the two years. Did you think about extending?

[User] I did. In hindsight, I wish I would have. But by the end of the two years, I was also feeling. I think a lot of people feel this way. They feel kind of a little bit stir crazy or you miss your family, you miss your friends, or you want to do something different. But at the same time, it was the best time of my life. And I think, you know, by the end of the second year, I was pretty fluent in the language. I was really comfortable. My jobs were going good. Had I carried on, I think I would have just done better. So I kind of regret not trying to do a third year. But I mean, I was younger. I was younger then.

[Assistant] Well, it's not too late.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where I think culture is more similar to a Western culture and Fiji is not very similar to Western culture at all. So I think that it gave me, well, I just didn't know what to expect. I had no idea really what Fijian culture would be about. I had never really even thought about Fijian culture. But what it did do is it gave me, I feel like as much as I learned about Fijian culture and I could go back to Fiji and sit down at any village and be comfortable to where a lot of people couldn't and know what's going on when a lot of people wouldn't. I also was able to look at my own culture in this really bird's eye view and go, oh, why did I ever think this? Why was this normal to me? Because what is so normal to them, it's weird to me. They think the same thing about me, you know. So it was a really good cultural sharing experience of being able to learn, in retrospect.

[Assistant] And you just stayed for the two years. Did you think about extending?

[User] I did. In hindsight, I wish I would have. But by the end of the two years, I was also feeling. I think a lot of people feel this way. They feel kind of a little bit stir crazy or you miss your family, you miss your friends, or you want to do something different. But at the same time, it was the best time of my life. And I think, you know, by the end of the second year, I was pretty fluent in the language. I was really comfortable. My jobs were going good. Had I carried on, I think I would have just done better. So I kind of regret not trying to do a third year. But I mean, I was younger. I was younger then.

[Assistant] Well, it's not too late.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] There's still. So what do you think some of your main accomplishments were there? You know, the Peace Corps, one of the goals is to transfer knowledge and expertise to your local counterparts. Do you think you had any effect there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] There's still. So what do you think some of your main accomplishments were there? You know, the Peace Corps, one of the goals is to transfer knowledge and expertise to your local counterparts. Do you think you had any effect there?

[User] I think the one, the recycling rubbish program, I think was. I think they. I think they always kind of understood that it wasn't good, but it's kind of like if you just. Like I'm a park ranger right now and if I don't want people to use an illegal trail, if I just put brush on it, they'll move the brush. If I put brush on it and I put a sign, this is going to cause erosion and ruin the park and yadda yadda yadda, people seem to respect it. If you just, you know, after those I guess it was four years because there's a volunteer before me. They all got it and they saw the benefit of it and they just carried on. You know, it was trash is trash. And this new trash, especially for them because it was a new style of trash, has a lasting impact. And they'd asked me questions, you know, they'd ask me the questions that were hard to answer. If this plastic is so bad, why do you make it? Well, I wish I could answer that better.

[Assistant] A good question, yeah. You weren't the first volunteer in that community, were you?

[User] No. Second in the community, but first in my village.

[Assistant] First in your village. So the people there probably didn't know what to expect of you. Do you think you, uh, that they had a better understanding of Americans after you were there for a couple of years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the elders would talk about how all the young people were more like me and how they had these love marriages, which were brand new, and that these love marriages are no good. You know, there's one old guy who said he'd never even kissed his wife and that's like mind boggling to me.

[Assistant] So even in the Fijian culture they were arranging marriages before?

[User] Mm hmm. It's like, you never kiss your wife? You know, it just wasn't, there was no need for it. And as to where us, we went, you know, they see us wanting to fall in love and find this life partner. For them it was like it was just so much more practical. So I mean, I guess I still am looking at it from my own perspective, but they had asked me so many questions about love marriages. The older ones. The younger, I think the younger generation got it differently.

[Assistant] Sure. Sure. Now so when you left Peace Corps then, what did you do after that?

[User] I traveled. I went to Sri Lanka for about a month and Bali about a month. And then I ended up living in New Zealand for about a year and Australia for about a year and kind of did some traveling in between till I made my way back to the States and kind of went home up to Humboldt County, worked for a while, and made my way back or ended up getting a job here.

[Assistant] And you kept in touch with folks back in Fiji and some of your Peace Corps friends from the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. It's like, you never kiss your wife? You know, it just wasn't, there was no need for it. And as to where us, we went, you know, they see us wanting to fall in love and find this life partner. For them it was like it was just so much more practical. So I mean, I guess I still am looking at it from my own perspective, but they had asked me so many questions about love marriages. The older ones. The younger, I think the younger generation got it differently.

[Assistant] Sure. Sure. Now so when you left Peace Corps then, what did you do after that?

[User] I traveled. I went to Sri Lanka for about a month and Bali about a month. And then I ended up living in New Zealand for about a year and Australia for about a year and kind of did some traveling in between till I made my way back to the States and kind of went home up to Humboldt County, worked for a while, and made my way back or ended up getting a job here.

[Assistant] And you kept in touch with folks back in Fiji and some of your Peace Corps friends from the time?

[User] I still got two of my good friends, Sarah and Amy. Amy lives up in Washington. Sarah just moved over to the East Coast. And then Corina, who was, I was friends with and she lived in a village kind of near mine, but she was there a year before me, so I only knew her for a year while I was there. She, we worked not together, but in similar departments so I'd see her often. And I had another friend, Christian, who was the year after me and he is a park ranger at Joshua Tree and we hang out kind of often. I go out there a lot and he comes here.

[Assistant] So you guys have this shared, kind of shared experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I traveled. I went to Sri Lanka for about a month and Bali about a month. And then I ended up living in New Zealand for about a year and Australia for about a year and kind of did some traveling in between till I made my way back to the States and kind of went home up to Humboldt County, worked for a while, and made my way back or ended up getting a job here.

[Assistant] And you kept in touch with folks back in Fiji and some of your Peace Corps friends from the time?

[User] I still got two of my good friends, Sarah and Amy. Amy lives up in Washington. Sarah just moved over to the East Coast. And then Corina, who was, I was friends with and she lived in a village kind of near mine, but she was there a year before me, so I only knew her for a year while I was there. She, we worked not together, but in similar departments so I'd see her often. And I had another friend, Christian, who was the year after me and he is a park ranger at Joshua Tree and we hang out kind of often. I go out there a lot and he comes here.

[Assistant] So you guys have this shared, kind of shared experience.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I think you mentioned earlier that that kind of brings you together. You have something in common.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And I think you mentioned earlier that that kind of brings you together. You have something in common.

[User] Yeah. I mean, Fiji was such a monumental moment in my life. I feel like there's probably, there's probably more times in a week that I mentioned something about Fiji than anything else I ever did. And so when you have somebody else that kind of understands it or knows a word or gets the humor behind it, it's really, it's really important and special.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I feel like when I hear about old guys talking about their service in the military and like, that's where their defining moments. Peace Corps is really similar in the way that Peace Corps volunteers talk about it. You just kind of go, oh, you did that? You did that. Good job. You know, even if it wasn't the same country. The same country's even better, probably like Marines like Marines more than they like guys in the Army.

[Assistant] How about your Fijian friends? You keep in touch with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I feel like when I hear about old guys talking about their service in the military and like, that's where their defining moments. Peace Corps is really similar in the way that Peace Corps volunteers talk about it. You just kind of go, oh, you did that? You did that. Good job. You know, even if it wasn't the same country. The same country's even better, probably like Marines like Marines more than they like guys in the Army.

[Assistant] How about your Fijian friends? You keep in touch with them?

[User] Not so much. I was a little bit because Facebook came around, but then I got off Facebook and I haven't had that much touch. For a few years afterwards, I'd handwrite letters to a lot of them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then I just kind of, they never wrote back and I guess it faded away. But for a while I always wanted to write letters to people. And I think about them and like I have conversations in my head in Fijian with some of them to try and keep up with the words because there's nobody else to talk to in Fijian. But it's, sadly the language is fading. Every once in a while, like a couple of weeks ago, I was with my friend that is out in Joshua Tree and he was, he said a word and I was like, I don't remember that word. I was like, I don't even know if I ever learned that word, but I definitely don't remember. He's like, surely you learned that word. But it's, it's a cool, it's cool to know language, even though it's not a very useful language. It's cool to know such a unique language.

[Assistant] Right. It's not like any other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not so much. I was a little bit because Facebook came around, but then I got off Facebook and I haven't had that much touch. For a few years afterwards, I'd handwrite letters to a lot of them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then I just kind of, they never wrote back and I guess it faded away. But for a while I always wanted to write letters to people. And I think about them and like I have conversations in my head in Fijian with some of them to try and keep up with the words because there's nobody else to talk to in Fijian. But it's, sadly the language is fading. Every once in a while, like a couple of weeks ago, I was with my friend that is out in Joshua Tree and he was, he said a word and I was like, I don't remember that word. I was like, I don't even know if I ever learned that word, but I definitely don't remember. He's like, surely you learned that word. But it's, it's a cool, it's cool to know language, even though it's not a very useful language. It's cool to know such a unique language.

[Assistant] Right. It's not like any other.

[User] And then I learned a dialect that's even more unique to the language, when I would go around Fiji and I could speak my dialect, it was really impressive to everybody.

[Assistant] Yeah, I bet. Especially the people in Nadroga.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I just kind of, they never wrote back and I guess it faded away. But for a while I always wanted to write letters to people. And I think about them and like I have conversations in my head in Fijian with some of them to try and keep up with the words because there's nobody else to talk to in Fijian. But it's, sadly the language is fading. Every once in a while, like a couple of weeks ago, I was with my friend that is out in Joshua Tree and he was, he said a word and I was like, I don't remember that word. I was like, I don't even know if I ever learned that word, but I definitely don't remember. He's like, surely you learned that word. But it's, it's a cool, it's cool to know language, even though it's not a very useful language. It's cool to know such a unique language.

[Assistant] Right. It's not like any other.

[User] And then I learned a dialect that's even more unique to the language, when I would go around Fiji and I could speak my dialect, it was really impressive to everybody.

[Assistant] Yeah, I bet. Especially the people in Nadroga.

[User] Yeah, yeah. You just say a couple Nadroga words. They'd just be like, oh!

[Assistant] Yeah. So have you had the occasion to maybe talk to people since then that, since you've been back, that are thinking about going to the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I learned a dialect that's even more unique to the language, when I would go around Fiji and I could speak my dialect, it was really impressive to everybody.

[Assistant] Yeah, I bet. Especially the people in Nadroga.

[User] Yeah, yeah. You just say a couple Nadroga words. They'd just be like, oh!

[Assistant] Yeah. So have you had the occasion to maybe talk to people since then that, since you've been back, that are thinking about going to the Peace Corps?

[User]
Yeah, I did a talk actually. I did a big talk for at Mesa College. There's a teacher that she does a lot of work with. So I'm a park ranger and she sends her students to work in the canyons with us. And she knew that I was in the Peace Corps, and she asked me if I would do a talk for an array of students. And so I went and talked about my experiences. And I was supposed to do it one other time, but they canceled it and she said she's got another event coming up that I'm going to go talk at. And just tell students, you know, it's kind of like they do these little groups and they can ask me whatever questions they want. And then there's a broad question and answer period, and it's probably 50 or 60 kids in there.

And then any time anybody asks me about the Peace Corps, I tell them they should do it. If they're thinking about it, they should at least start the application because it's going to take ten months anyway. And if they really want to do it, just buy the ticket, take the ride. I mean, it's two years. It goes by so fast. You don't have much to lose.

[Assistant] Yeah. In retrospect, it doesn't seem like a long time, does it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was quite a football team. Earl Blaik was the head coach. I was the lowly manager, but Vince Lombardi was a coach. Sid Gilman was a coach. Murray Wurmouth was a coach. There were all kinds of people that went on to greater fame in sports that were working for Col. Blaik.

[Assistant] Well, one of the questions that the historians behind us wanted to know is whether Vince Lombardi in your—and your dealings with him then, did it have any impact? He’s known as such a—you know, his management style as a coach, other people have adopted in business. Did it have any effect on you as you went on in your career?

[User] No, I don’t think so. He was very emotional, very intense. And he was a perfect compliment to Col. Blaik. So, but—you know, as I said, I was a lowly manager and I—and that didn’t really much of that rub off.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about: You were teaching at West Point when Sputnik was launched—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —in 1957. Do you recall what your thoughts were when that happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think so. He was very emotional, very intense. And he was a perfect compliment to Col. Blaik. So, but—you know, as I said, I was a lowly manager and I—and that didn’t really much of that rub off.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about: You were teaching at West Point when Sputnik was launched—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —in 1957. Do you recall what your thoughts were when that happened?

[User] Yeah. I was really concerned. To be honest with you, I’d never even thought about rockets or space before. I—you know, I was into airplanes and I was a fighter pilot and I was only at West Point teaching over my great regret. I didn’t want to do it, but the military said, “That’s your job,” so I went to do it. And when they launched Sputnik, it was a real shock to me because it appeared that the—you know, there was a real Cold War going on back then, and it appeared that the Russians had got a big leg up.

[Assistant] Was it—you know, following that, we tried to launch Vanguard in December of that year and it failed. Did you have—what were your concerns right then about our capabilities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —in 1957. Do you recall what your thoughts were when that happened?

[User] Yeah. I was really concerned. To be honest with you, I’d never even thought about rockets or space before. I—you know, I was into airplanes and I was a fighter pilot and I was only at West Point teaching over my great regret. I didn’t want to do it, but the military said, “That’s your job,” so I went to do it. And when they launched Sputnik, it was a real shock to me because it appeared that the—you know, there was a real Cold War going on back then, and it appeared that the Russians had got a big leg up.

[Assistant] Was it—you know, following that, we tried to launch Vanguard in December of that year and it failed. Did you have—what were your concerns right then about our capabilities?

[User] Well, I think the concerns then were: When are we going to catch up? I believe I was typical of a lot of people my age at that time. We were very concerned; and, of course, there—the political climate was exploiting the so-called “missile gap,” which turned out never existed but it made an impact.

[Assistant] Did you—when we were successful and launched Explorer 1, do you remember what your thoughts were then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I was really concerned. To be honest with you, I’d never even thought about rockets or space before. I—you know, I was into airplanes and I was a fighter pilot and I was only at West Point teaching over my great regret. I didn’t want to do it, but the military said, “That’s your job,” so I went to do it. And when they launched Sputnik, it was a real shock to me because it appeared that the—you know, there was a real Cold War going on back then, and it appeared that the Russians had got a big leg up.

[Assistant] Was it—you know, following that, we tried to launch Vanguard in December of that year and it failed. Did you have—what were your concerns right then about our capabilities?

[User] Well, I think the concerns then were: When are we going to catch up? I believe I was typical of a lot of people my age at that time. We were very concerned; and, of course, there—the political climate was exploiting the so-called “missile gap,” which turned out never existed but it made an impact.

[Assistant] Did you—when we were successful and launched Explorer 1, do you remember what your thoughts were then?

[User] Oh I was very happy. Very pleased. Of course then the Russians trumped us with [Yuri A.] Gagarin, so we were back in the mess again.

[Assistant] But even back then, did you see yourself playing a role in any of it? Or were you interested as a citizen, as a military—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think the concerns then were: When are we going to catch up? I believe I was typical of a lot of people my age at that time. We were very concerned; and, of course, there—the political climate was exploiting the so-called “missile gap,” which turned out never existed but it made an impact.

[Assistant] Did you—when we were successful and launched Explorer 1, do you remember what your thoughts were then?

[User] Oh I was very happy. Very pleased. Of course then the Russians trumped us with [Yuri A.] Gagarin, so we were back in the mess again.

[Assistant] But even back then, did you see yourself playing a role in any of it? Or were you interested as a citizen, as a military—

[User] I was interested in it as a Air Force officer and as an American citizen. I had no idea, no concept, or any desire to participate in that part of the business.

[Assistant] When you did get involved with rockets and then you played a role in developing the [Lockheed] F-104 Starfighter, how did that come about? I mean, how involved did you get personally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh I was very happy. Very pleased. Of course then the Russians trumped us with [Yuri A.] Gagarin, so we were back in the mess again.

[Assistant] But even back then, did you see yourself playing a role in any of it? Or were you interested as a citizen, as a military—

[User] I was interested in it as a Air Force officer and as an American citizen. I had no idea, no concept, or any desire to participate in that part of the business.

[Assistant] When you did get involved with rockets and then you played a role in developing the [Lockheed] F-104 Starfighter, how did that come about? I mean, how involved did you get personally?

[User] When I left West Point, I went to the [Air Force] Test Pilot School [Edwards Air Force Base, California]. And then I stayed on there to teach because they were starting in what they called the graduate program, an advanced test pilot program, that would lead to, hopefully, prepare people to fly in space. And as a result of that, we wanted to get an airplane that would give you some sort of a feeling of reentry at a fraction of the cost of the Norbet, and so we—a friend of mine and myself came up with the idea of putting rockets on a 104. And we were in the process of running that through the Air Force and got it approved by everybody in the Air Force, and then I went to NASA. So I never even got to fly it! [laughs]

[Assistant] You never did get to fly in it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was interested in it as a Air Force officer and as an American citizen. I had no idea, no concept, or any desire to participate in that part of the business.

[Assistant] When you did get involved with rockets and then you played a role in developing the [Lockheed] F-104 Starfighter, how did that come about? I mean, how involved did you get personally?

[User] When I left West Point, I went to the [Air Force] Test Pilot School [Edwards Air Force Base, California]. And then I stayed on there to teach because they were starting in what they called the graduate program, an advanced test pilot program, that would lead to, hopefully, prepare people to fly in space. And as a result of that, we wanted to get an airplane that would give you some sort of a feeling of reentry at a fraction of the cost of the Norbet, and so we—a friend of mine and myself came up with the idea of putting rockets on a 104. And we were in the process of running that through the Air Force and got it approved by everybody in the Air Force, and then I went to NASA. So I never even got to fly it! [laughs]

[Assistant] You never did get to fly in it?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you—I guess when you got the word that you were going to become an astronaut (and I don’t know that you necessarily had to resign from the pilot school), but I read that your commanding officer was actually [Gen.] Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I left West Point, I went to the [Air Force] Test Pilot School [Edwards Air Force Base, California]. And then I stayed on there to teach because they were starting in what they called the graduate program, an advanced test pilot program, that would lead to, hopefully, prepare people to fly in space. And as a result of that, we wanted to get an airplane that would give you some sort of a feeling of reentry at a fraction of the cost of the Norbet, and so we—a friend of mine and myself came up with the idea of putting rockets on a 104. And we were in the process of running that through the Air Force and got it approved by everybody in the Air Force, and then I went to NASA. So I never even got to fly it! [laughs]

[Assistant] You never did get to fly in it?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you—I guess when you got the word that you were going to become an astronaut (and I don’t know that you necessarily had to resign from the pilot school), but I read that your commanding officer was actually [Gen.] Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Go through that story of what you went to tell him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Did you—I guess when you got the word that you were going to become an astronaut (and I don’t know that you necessarily had to resign from the pilot school), but I read that your commanding officer was actually [Gen.] Chuck [Charles E.] Yeager.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Go through that story of what you went to tell him.

[User] Well I applied for the astronaut program, and the Air Force was very keen on getting people in the program. And as a matter of fact, we—those of us that were successful were interviewed and told by a Gen. Curtis LeMay, who was the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, in no uncertain terms that we were warriors in a Cold War and that—that our job was to go to NASA, do good for the country, and make the Air Force look good. I went back and I—\n\n Incidentally, I just saw Chuck Yeager in Kissimmee [Florida], too. But anyway, I went back and I walked in, and I never will forget: He was sitting at his desk. And I said, “Colonel, I’ve got some good news.” And he said, “What’s that?” And I said, “I just heard from NASA that I’ve been accepted. I’m going to be joining the astronaut program.” And he didn’t even look up. He said, “Well, Borman, you can kiss your blank career—Air Force career goodbye.” [laughs] So that was my sendoff from the Air Force. Actually, I never left the Air Force but from Edwards.

[Assistant] Right. Did you know, I know, you know, Chuck Yeager—so much was made of Chuck Yeager years later, and people have this one view of him. I mean, you worked with him. What were your feelings about him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he was a great—he is a great patriot and a great guy to work for. He’s mellowed a lot, as I said I saw him in Kissimmee this year. But he would give you a job and let you do it. It was very, very good to have him at the Test Pilot School because he had a lot of clout in the Air Force, and we were trying to build up and get the airplanes and get the resources to really start this program; and he was very instrumental in helping us.

[Assistant] Do you think his—the bitterness that we’ve all been led to believe he felt about not getting the chance to be an astronaut, do you think that was overplayed or—?

[User] I don’t think he even wanted to be astronaut. I think by then he was a colonel in the Air Force, and I think he was a happy camper at Edwards.

[Assistant] All right. Let’s move on to the NASA experience. What did you expect when you were—I mean, you had some idea of the astronaut program because, you know, you had that original Mercury seven to look to. But what were your expectations? What were your family’s expectations of the experience?

[User] That we were going into the great unknown, to be honest with you. I had been to the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] once before in conjunction with this program we’d started at Edwards, so I knew something about the Cape. But interestingly enough, we got down there (three Air Force officers), and NASA wouldn’t let in! So it was a great, big unknown. I don’t know what to expect. Certainly my wife, with two small children, didn’t know what to expect. We kind of went there like babes in the wood.

[Assistant] Now when you say you went down there, “three Air Force officers,” was that was when you were on Starfighter? Or was—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think he even wanted to be astronaut. I think by then he was a colonel in the Air Force, and I think he was a happy camper at Edwards.

[Assistant] All right. Let’s move on to the NASA experience. What did you expect when you were—I mean, you had some idea of the astronaut program because, you know, you had that original Mercury seven to look to. But what were your expectations? What were your family’s expectations of the experience?

[User] That we were going into the great unknown, to be honest with you. I had been to the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] once before in conjunction with this program we’d started at Edwards, so I knew something about the Cape. But interestingly enough, we got down there (three Air Force officers), and NASA wouldn’t let in! So it was a great, big unknown. I don’t know what to expect. Certainly my wife, with two small children, didn’t know what to expect. We kind of went there like babes in the wood.

[Assistant] Now when you say you went down there, “three Air Force officers,” was that was when you were on Starfighter? Or was—

[User] That’s when we were at the Test Pilot School. We went down to watch a launch, and we didn’t have the right credentials to get in. [laughs]

[Assistant] Oh that’s funny.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That we were going into the great unknown, to be honest with you. I had been to the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] once before in conjunction with this program we’d started at Edwards, so I knew something about the Cape. But interestingly enough, we got down there (three Air Force officers), and NASA wouldn’t let in! So it was a great, big unknown. I don’t know what to expect. Certainly my wife, with two small children, didn’t know what to expect. We kind of went there like babes in the wood.

[Assistant] Now when you say you went down there, “three Air Force officers,” was that was when you were on Starfighter? Or was—

[User] That’s when we were at the Test Pilot School. We went down to watch a launch, and we didn’t have the right credentials to get in. [laughs]

[Assistant] Oh that’s funny.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s funny. Were there any goals? Like, back in 1962 when you were chosen, that you think: “Oh, I have these goals.” And how—when you were—when you left in 1970, had you met all those goals? Or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s when we were at the Test Pilot School. We went down to watch a launch, and we didn’t have the right credentials to get in. [laughs]

[Assistant] Oh that’s funny.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s funny. Were there any goals? Like, back in 1962 when you were chosen, that you think: “Oh, I have these goals.” And how—when you were—when you left in 1970, had you met all those goals? Or—

[User] No, I had not I’ve never been a person that set a goal that—my reason for joining NASA was to participate in the Apollo Program, the lunar program, and hopefully beat the Russians. I never looked at it for any individual goals. I never wanted to be the first person on the Moon or I and frankly, as far as I was concerned, when Apollo 11 was over the mission was over. The rest was frosting on the cake.

[Assistant] They gave the astronauts kind of these technical assignments, too, and I guess you had boosters on Titan II. Why did they give you that specialty, do you know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s funny. Were there any goals? Like, back in 1962 when you were chosen, that you think: “Oh, I have these goals.” And how—when you were—when you left in 1970, had you met all those goals? Or—

[User] No, I had not I’ve never been a person that set a goal that—my reason for joining NASA was to participate in the Apollo Program, the lunar program, and hopefully beat the Russians. I never looked at it for any individual goals. I never wanted to be the first person on the Moon or I and frankly, as far as I was concerned, when Apollo 11 was over the mission was over. The rest was frosting on the cake.

[Assistant] They gave the astronauts kind of these technical assignments, too, and I guess you had boosters on Titan II. Why did they give you that specialty, do you know?

[User] I have no idea how they handled out the specialties. I was just told that I was going to be specializing in boosters; and so I went to the Titan II and then to the Apollo, the Saturn V Program down at [George C. Marshall Space Flight Center] Huntsville [Alabama].

[Assistant] Did you have any expertise in that area that—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I had not I’ve never been a person that set a goal that—my reason for joining NASA was to participate in the Apollo Program, the lunar program, and hopefully beat the Russians. I never looked at it for any individual goals. I never wanted to be the first person on the Moon or I and frankly, as far as I was concerned, when Apollo 11 was over the mission was over. The rest was frosting on the cake.

[Assistant] They gave the astronauts kind of these technical assignments, too, and I guess you had boosters on Titan II. Why did they give you that specialty, do you know?

[User] I have no idea how they handled out the specialties. I was just told that I was going to be specializing in boosters; and so I went to the Titan II and then to the Apollo, the Saturn V Program down at [George C. Marshall Space Flight Center] Huntsville [Alabama].

[Assistant] Did you have any expertise in that area that—

[User] I had no special expertise in that area. I had a—I had been teaching Thermodynamics, and I had a master’s degree in Aeronautical Engineering, so maybe they thought that was some way, you know, helpful.

[Assistant] Did they think maybe your experience with the Starfighter might—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have no idea how they handled out the specialties. I was just told that I was going to be specializing in boosters; and so I went to the Titan II and then to the Apollo, the Saturn V Program down at [George C. Marshall Space Flight Center] Huntsville [Alabama].

[Assistant] Did you have any expertise in that area that—

[User] I had no special expertise in that area. I had a—I had been teaching Thermodynamics, and I had a master’s degree in Aeronautical Engineering, so maybe they thought that was some way, you know, helpful.

[Assistant] Did they think maybe your experience with the Starfighter might—?

[User] No, see because the Starfighter—I never—I flew the 104 a lot, but I never got to fly the one with the rockets on it. That came after I was gone. Now we did an awful lot of work—an awful lot of work—in high-drag landings (that I hope are helpful to the—what the Shuttle is doing now) with the 104. But of course that had no application in the Apollo Program.

[Assistant] There is a committee that you were on that—I don’t want to say “There’s mystery about it,” but it—the Crew Safety Committee that you were on, I guess, from ’63 to ’64. Just—can you—do you even remember what that was? Or can you clarify what it was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t have any idea what it was. I can’t remember. It wasn’t very important. I—the main thing that I had as the rocket specialist was to make certain that the crew had a chance to escape in the event of an anomaly with the launch. I remember: We went to Aerojet once to look at—for—to look at a Titan II firing. And I was concerned (we were all concerned) that—the Titan has two barrels. And we were concerned that—what we be the turning moment if one of those barrels failed at launch. And, the Aerojet people informed us that that could never happen. There were all kinds of safety devices. We would never have a failure mode where one rocket would—where one barrel wouldn’t light. So they proceeded to turn it on, and guess what happened? Only one barrel lit. You never saw more chagrined Aerojet people in the world. But they fixed it.

[Assistant]
So I guess your role on that committee, you made a difference. I hear them hammering. You’re—\n\n [Break]\n\n VOICE OFF CAMERA: We are recording again.

All right. I wanted to ask you an interesting story about Gemini III in that—that you kind of had an idea you were going to be [Virgil I.] Gus Grissom’s copilot and then he had you over to dinner. And what happened?

[User] I was told that I was going to be a—fly with Gus on the first flight of Gemini. No, he didn’t have me to dinner, but I went over to his house to talk to him about it. And we had a long talk, and [laughs] after that I was scrubbed from the flight. So I guess that I didn’t pass the test with Grissom.

[Assistant] Do you know why?

[User] Don’t know why. Nobody ever said anything to me about it.

[Assistant] And you never asked him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was told that I was going to be a—fly with Gus on the first flight of Gemini. No, he didn’t have me to dinner, but I went over to his house to talk to him about it. And we had a long talk, and [laughs] after that I was scrubbed from the flight. So I guess that I didn’t pass the test with Grissom.

[Assistant] Do you know why?

[User] Don’t know why. Nobody ever said anything to me about it.

[Assistant] And you never asked him?

[User] I never asked. Could have cared less.

[Assistant] [laughs] How come you couldn’t care less?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don’t know why. Nobody ever said anything to me about it.

[Assistant] And you never asked him?

[User] I never asked. Could have cared less.

[Assistant] [laughs] How come you couldn’t care less?

[User] Well, you know, if they didn’t want me, I didn’t want to be there.

[Assistant] Yeah. But not everybody has that personality.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never asked. Could have cared less.

[Assistant] [laughs] How come you couldn’t care less?

[User] Well, you know, if they didn’t want me, I didn’t want to be there.

[Assistant] Yeah. But not everybody has that personality.

[User] Well [laughs], I’m stuck with it!

[Assistant] It served you well. Well then, let’s move on to Gemini IV, where you were the backup crew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, if they didn’t want me, I didn’t want to be there.

[Assistant] Yeah. But not everybody has that personality.

[User] Well [laughs], I’m stuck with it!

[Assistant] It served you well. Well then, let’s move on to Gemini IV, where you were the backup crew.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you take part in EVA [extravehicular activity] training for that, too, as—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well [laughs], I’m stuck with it!

[Assistant] It served you well. Well then, let’s move on to Gemini IV, where you were the backup crew.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you take part in EVA [extravehicular activity] training for that, too, as—

[User] No, I didn’t take part in the EVA training. As a matter of fact, I was against putting the EVA in the mission. They—you know, they added the EVA quite late in the program in response to [Soviet Cosmonaut Alexei A.] Leonov’s EVA, and I was concerned about the ability to pull it off. But [Pilot] Ed [Edward H. White II] and [Commander] Jim [James A. McDivitt] were very anxious to do it; and, of course, it worked out very well. I was wrong.

[Assistant] Now you—there’s numerous examples over your career of when you do speak out about things like that. And you say, you know, “This is too much.” Or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you take part in EVA [extravehicular activity] training for that, too, as—

[User] No, I didn’t take part in the EVA training. As a matter of fact, I was against putting the EVA in the mission. They—you know, they added the EVA quite late in the program in response to [Soviet Cosmonaut Alexei A.] Leonov’s EVA, and I was concerned about the ability to pull it off. But [Pilot] Ed [Edward H. White II] and [Commander] Jim [James A. McDivitt] were very anxious to do it; and, of course, it worked out very well. I was wrong.

[Assistant] Now you—there’s numerous examples over your career of when you do speak out about things like that. And you say, you know, “This is too much.” Or—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What was the—how was that taken at the time? I mean, was it seen as—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t take part in the EVA training. As a matter of fact, I was against putting the EVA in the mission. They—you know, they added the EVA quite late in the program in response to [Soviet Cosmonaut Alexei A.] Leonov’s EVA, and I was concerned about the ability to pull it off. But [Pilot] Ed [Edward H. White II] and [Commander] Jim [James A. McDivitt] were very anxious to do it; and, of course, it worked out very well. I was wrong.

[Assistant] Now you—there’s numerous examples over your career of when you do speak out about things like that. And you say, you know, “This is too much.” Or—

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What was the—how was that taken at the time? I mean, was it seen as—

[User] Well, I thought it was taken well. I thought NASA, at that time, was about as good a management team as you could get because they expected everybody to tell how they felt, to express their concerns, to, you know, reasonably and effectively say what they felt. But then once the decision was made, they also expected you to pitch in. And when they made the decision I pitched in. It was—it seems to me that’s the ideal way for management to work.

[Assistant] Once the decision was made to go ahead with the EVA, I guess the crew really did push for a spacesuit with a new, special kind of coating: a G4C with a cover layer. Were you involved in that at all, in trying to transition to a newer suit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] What was the—how was that taken at the time? I mean, was it seen as—

[User] Well, I thought it was taken well. I thought NASA, at that time, was about as good a management team as you could get because they expected everybody to tell how they felt, to express their concerns, to, you know, reasonably and effectively say what they felt. But then once the decision was made, they also expected you to pitch in. And when they made the decision I pitched in. It was—it seems to me that’s the ideal way for management to work.

[Assistant] Once the decision was made to go ahead with the EVA, I guess the crew really did push for a spacesuit with a new, special kind of coating: a G4C with a cover layer. Were you involved in that at all, in trying to transition to a newer suit?

[User] I was not.

[Assistant] Okay. The mission when you flew, on Gemini VII, in a 14-day mission, do you remember what your thoughts were when they first said to you, “14 days”?