[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Beverly cooked. I didn't cook, but Beverly cooked. And we'd go out, I guess, a little bit. There were little eateries around there, nothing like a restaurant, but there were places where workmen and others who were away from home could get a meal. And so Beverly cooked. Once a week, there was a butcher that would slaughter. One week he'd slaughter a cow, and the next week he would slaughter a pig. And it was on the town square. And you went down there and you looked around at this meat hanging in his living room and you'd pick out a couple of pounds of it. And, uh, after a while, it might have been six months or I don't know. After some time we bought a used refrigerator. It was a kerosene fired refrigerator, which, you know, sounds crazy. But anyway, if you light a fire in the bottom of a fridge, this kind of special refrigerator, the heat coming off that thing will do certain refrigeration, uh, boiling and condensing and transporting this coolant around through that refrigerator somehow. I still don't know how, but you could have ice in top. It was a little refrigerator.

[Assistant] Wow, it was efficient enough to make ice?

[User] It would make ice. Keep beer cold. Keep meat cold. The downside was that if you put meat in there and then you went away for two days and somehow the wind blew that fire out.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] It would spoil inside.

[Assistant] By meat. Yeah. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would spoil inside.

[Assistant] By meat. Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And it'd be kind of a mess.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Smelly and so forth.

[Assistant] But for the first several months, you lived without refrigeration?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Little pieces of wood.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they'd stick them in these sort of clay, uh, beautifully made fire pits, and they'd put this big clay, oh, what would you call it? A bowl. But it was a very shallow bowl and then cooked tortillas on it. And they had pots and pans to fry meat and fry rice or to cook rice on this wood fire. But we did it on kerosene. So it worked. But we had, we ate good. There was tomatoes, onions, celery. We had to worry a little bit about, well, we called it douching the vegetables in a very light rinse of some kind of disinfectant.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] But nothing that would really taste bad.

[Assistant] And that was to eat them raw?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they'd stick them in these sort of clay, uh, beautifully made fire pits, and they'd put this big clay, oh, what would you call it? A bowl. But it was a very shallow bowl and then cooked tortillas on it. And they had pots and pans to fry meat and fry rice or to cook rice on this wood fire. But we did it on kerosene. So it worked. But we had, we ate good. There was tomatoes, onions, celery. We had to worry a little bit about, well, we called it douching the vegetables in a very light rinse of some kind of disinfectant.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] But nothing that would really taste bad.

[Assistant] And that was to eat them raw?

[User] Yeah, well, even if you're. Yeah, I guess so.

[Assistant] Even if you were going to cook it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But nothing that would really taste bad.

[Assistant] And that was to eat them raw?

[User] Yeah, well, even if you're. Yeah, I guess so.

[Assistant] Even if you were going to cook it?

[User] No, I guess if you cooked it, you could. But yeah, it seemed like we did that to even to tomatoes that you were going to sauté before rice.

[Assistant] Uh huh. So you had rice?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably had pasta. Yeah, I think Beverly made spaghetti. At the store, it was a very simple store, but they were like cans of peas and capers and there was ketchup and mustard.

[Assistant] Capers, wow.

[User] They had capers and a lot of it in these tamales that were just delicious. Oh my gosh. At Christmas time, they made a tamale with a banana leaf wrap, you know, and this corn masa and little pieces of pork and it's delicious. It was just, it's just to die for.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So beer. We drank a lot of beer and we had a water filter in there so you could drink some water. But the beer was, you know, seemed safer.

[Assistant] Did you have to boil the water before you filter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had capers and a lot of it in these tamales that were just delicious. Oh my gosh. At Christmas time, they made a tamale with a banana leaf wrap, you know, and this corn masa and little pieces of pork and it's delicious. It was just, it's just to die for.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So beer. We drank a lot of beer and we had a water filter in there so you could drink some water. But the beer was, you know, seemed safer.

[Assistant] Did you have to boil the water before you filter?

[User] Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. You were supposed to boil the water. You couldn't count on the filter.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How was your health? Did you maintain health?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lost weight. I probably lost 20 pounds. Ten, 20 pounds. That was normal. I mean, I walked everywhere.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, uh, the idea was, or everybody said that the men are going to lose 10 pounds and the women are going to gain 10 pounds.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And most of that, I think, from this diet of corn tortillas and rice and beans and a little bit of meat and some salad and stuff. So anyway, my health was good. I did have parasites, oh, maybe five times during the two years. And I felt bad. You'd smell bad. Your breath, your farts. You knew that something was wrong. You'd go to Teguc and get a stool sample and they'd identify it, and then they'd give you something and it would go away. And I never had anything that really was invasive or life threatening. I just had an ongoing, inconvenient parasitical problem.

[Assistant] Yeah, and you could deal with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, uh, the idea was, or everybody said that the men are going to lose 10 pounds and the women are going to gain 10 pounds.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And most of that, I think, from this diet of corn tortillas and rice and beans and a little bit of meat and some salad and stuff. So anyway, my health was good. I did have parasites, oh, maybe five times during the two years. And I felt bad. You'd smell bad. Your breath, your farts. You knew that something was wrong. You'd go to Teguc and get a stool sample and they'd identify it, and then they'd give you something and it would go away. And I never had anything that really was invasive or life threatening. I just had an ongoing, inconvenient parasitical problem.

[Assistant] Yeah, and you could deal with that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you talked about going into Teguc, which is Tegucigalpa, the capital city. How far how far away from the capital city were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And most of that, I think, from this diet of corn tortillas and rice and beans and a little bit of meat and some salad and stuff. So anyway, my health was good. I did have parasites, oh, maybe five times during the two years. And I felt bad. You'd smell bad. Your breath, your farts. You knew that something was wrong. You'd go to Teguc and get a stool sample and they'd identify it, and then they'd give you something and it would go away. And I never had anything that really was invasive or life threatening. I just had an ongoing, inconvenient parasitical problem.

[Assistant] Yeah, and you could deal with that.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you talked about going into Teguc, which is Tegucigalpa, the capital city. How far how far away from the capital city were you?

[User] We were pretty far in terms that we were at the end of the line, let's put it that way. But what that meant was if you wanted to go to Teguc, you'd tell somebody, and at 4:00 in the morning, they'd come by the front of your house.

[Assistant] I just want to look to see how much we've got, how much time we've got. I think we're okay. Continue. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were pretty far in terms that we were at the end of the line, let's put it that way. But what that meant was if you wanted to go to Teguc, you'd tell somebody, and at 4:00 in the morning, they'd come by the front of your house.

[Assistant] I just want to look to see how much we've got, how much time we've got. I think we're okay. Continue. Yeah.

[User] So anyway, you'd, at 4:00 in the morning, you'd get on this little busito, little VW van.

[Assistant] Van.

[User] Yeah, mostly. Sometimes it would be a freight truck. It was not a big truck, but it was bigger than a pickup truck where they were, uh. They had room for maybe ten passengers and then a bunch of other stuff. Anyway, you'd climb onto this thing and make this arduous trip from, I think it was four or 5,000 feet up. I guess I should look to see what the elevation was. But it was, the road was constantly climbing for the last two or 3 hours.

[Assistant] Climbing up to Tegucigalpa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So anyway, you'd, at 4:00 in the morning, you'd get on this little busito, little VW van.

[Assistant] Van.

[User] Yeah, mostly. Sometimes it would be a freight truck. It was not a big truck, but it was bigger than a pickup truck where they were, uh. They had room for maybe ten passengers and then a bunch of other stuff. Anyway, you'd climb onto this thing and make this arduous trip from, I think it was four or 5,000 feet up. I guess I should look to see what the elevation was. But it was, the road was constantly climbing for the last two or 3 hours.

[Assistant] Climbing up to Tegucigalpa?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Because that was in the center of the country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Because that was in the center of the country.

[User] Yeah, well, it was in these mountains.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I suppose it was in a valley. So you went back down at the end, but uh.

[Assistant] But you were coming from coastal flat land.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I suppose it was in a valley. So you went back down at the end, but uh.

[Assistant] But you were coming from coastal flat land.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Going up.

[User] Right. And these tiny little engines, tiny little VW engines straining away. So it was like a five hour trip, four hour trip.

[Assistant] Would you go and come back on the same day or did you usually spend the night in Teguc?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Going up.

[User] Right. And these tiny little engines, tiny little VW engines straining away. So it was like a five hour trip, four hour trip.

[Assistant] Would you go and come back on the same day or did you usually spend the night in Teguc?

[User] I think we usually spent the night.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And where, when you got to Tegucigalpa, where would you stay? Was there a Peace Corps hostel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And these tiny little engines, tiny little VW engines straining away. So it was like a five hour trip, four hour trip.

[Assistant] Would you go and come back on the same day or did you usually spend the night in Teguc?

[User] I think we usually spent the night.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And where, when you got to Tegucigalpa, where would you stay? Was there a Peace Corps hostel?

[User] Well, there was one that a lot of Peace Corps volunteers used. There were several. And we each had our own favorite. And we'd go there and usually there was room and we had a room and, you know, it felt good. I think it was Dona Teresa, where the one that we wound up staying the most at.

[Assistant] So there was a Peace Corps office there in the capital city?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we usually spent the night.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And where, when you got to Tegucigalpa, where would you stay? Was there a Peace Corps hostel?

[User] Well, there was one that a lot of Peace Corps volunteers used. There were several. And we each had our own favorite. And we'd go there and usually there was room and we had a room and, you know, it felt good. I think it was Dona Teresa, where the one that we wound up staying the most at.

[Assistant] So there was a Peace Corps office there in the capital city?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Peace Corps doctors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Peace Corps doctors?

[User] Yeah. The whole Peace Corps staff was there. And, you know, we were supposed to give, I think, monthly reports and we were supposed to write things and send them things. And they'd have programs. Okay, all the southern volunteers are going to meet at this place for this weekend, and we're going to study. Some of the projects that I got into were organizing a credit union, sort of crop improvements, an agricultural project, and school construction.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] And each one had a certain arrangement and profile. The school program was courting, CARE, and the deal was that if you could organize a community to build four adobe walls with window openings, and so over just four adobe walls, which was a fairly easy thing for a community to do. No big engineering. No, not expensive. They could build a school building. Well, I could get money to buy the material for the roof, for the doors and windows, and for a cement floor to be poured in there.

[Assistant] How were you supposed to get the money to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. The whole Peace Corps staff was there. And, you know, we were supposed to give, I think, monthly reports and we were supposed to write things and send them things. And they'd have programs. Okay, all the southern volunteers are going to meet at this place for this weekend, and we're going to study. Some of the projects that I got into were organizing a credit union, sort of crop improvements, an agricultural project, and school construction.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] And each one had a certain arrangement and profile. The school program was courting, CARE, and the deal was that if you could organize a community to build four adobe walls with window openings, and so over just four adobe walls, which was a fairly easy thing for a community to do. No big engineering. No, not expensive. They could build a school building. Well, I could get money to buy the material for the roof, for the doors and windows, and for a cement floor to be poured in there.

[Assistant] How were you supposed to get the money to do that?

[User] CARE.

[Assistant] Oh, through CARE. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And each one had a certain arrangement and profile. The school program was courting, CARE, and the deal was that if you could organize a community to build four adobe walls with window openings, and so over just four adobe walls, which was a fairly easy thing for a community to do. No big engineering. No, not expensive. They could build a school building. Well, I could get money to buy the material for the roof, for the doors and windows, and for a cement floor to be poured in there.

[Assistant] How were you supposed to get the money to do that?

[User] CARE.

[Assistant] Oh, through CARE. Okay.

[User] Yeah. It was like this program and, you know.

[Assistant] You just had to apply?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] CARE.

[Assistant] Oh, through CARE. Okay.

[User] Yeah. It was like this program and, you know.

[Assistant] You just had to apply?

[User] Yeah. And you'd say, well, I've got, they did it out in such and such. Nacino. And so then we'd go into town, go to Teguc, get the money from CARE, go round to the stores, buy this stuff, try to figure out how to get it out there, and then go back out there and tell them it's coming on such and such a day. And you need to have a work crew here because we're going to have the lumber and so on and so forth. You're going to have to put it up. And they were all very excited once, uh, if this community would get a school, then the central government would assign a teacher to it.

[Assistant] Oh, fine. Okay. But they had to provide the building for it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It was like this program and, you know.

[Assistant] You just had to apply?

[User] Yeah. And you'd say, well, I've got, they did it out in such and such. Nacino. And so then we'd go into town, go to Teguc, get the money from CARE, go round to the stores, buy this stuff, try to figure out how to get it out there, and then go back out there and tell them it's coming on such and such a day. And you need to have a work crew here because we're going to have the lumber and so on and so forth. You're going to have to put it up. And they were all very excited once, uh, if this community would get a school, then the central government would assign a teacher to it.

[Assistant] Oh, fine. Okay. But they had to provide the building for it?

[User] They had to build it.

[Assistant] So this wasn't within the town of Goascoran, it was an outlying village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ten, 15 miles away. 20 miles away.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, if it was only five miles, the kids could walk in.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] To go to school in Goascoran. There was no need to build another one.

[Assistant] But beyond that, they needed their own school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To go to school in Goascoran. There was no need to build another one.

[Assistant] But beyond that, they needed their own school.

[User] Yeah. They'd have to come in and board, have family or friends or pay money.

[Assistant] That's expensive.

[User] Yeah. And so they'd rather have the school out there. Plus, the schoolteacher was, you know, part of the economic improvement of that. Here's another salary. Here's somebody that wants to buy things and stuff. So it was a, it was good to have a school building in your community.

[Assistant] Yes. So you were responding to an expressed need of that little village. They had said what we need here is a school. And then you were, you were there to help make that happen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They'd have to come in and board, have family or friends or pay money.

[Assistant] That's expensive.

[User] Yeah. And so they'd rather have the school out there. Plus, the schoolteacher was, you know, part of the economic improvement of that. Here's another salary. Here's somebody that wants to buy things and stuff. So it was a, it was good to have a school building in your community.

[Assistant] Yes. So you were responding to an expressed need of that little village. They had said what we need here is a school. And then you were, you were there to help make that happen.

[User] Right. They knew about the program. They couldn't, they didn't know how to access it. I suppose they could have, but that's what I did.

[Assistant] How did you find out that that would be one of your roles?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. They knew about the program. They couldn't, they didn't know how to access it. I suppose they could have, but that's what I did.

[Assistant] How did you find out that that would be one of your roles?

[User] I'd be out there just walking around saying, you know, you guys want a school, we can do a school. And they'd say, what do you mean? Blah, blah, blah.

[Assistant] Ah, okay.

[User] And the other, like I mentioned.

[Assistant] And who put that into your head to ask that question? Did Peace Corps suggest that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd be out there just walking around saying, you know, you guys want a school, we can do a school. And they'd say, what do you mean? Blah, blah, blah.

[Assistant] Ah, okay.

[User] And the other, like I mentioned.

[Assistant] And who put that into your head to ask that question? Did Peace Corps suggest that?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] That this is one of the things you can do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the other, like I mentioned.

[Assistant] And who put that into your head to ask that question? Did Peace Corps suggest that?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] That this is one of the things you can do.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. You were trained after you got to Honduras in that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] That this is one of the things you can do.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. You were trained after you got to Honduras in that.

[User] Right. We were told about it, yeah.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. We were told about it, yeah.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah, yeah.

[User] The other was a UN, a United Nations program for Food and Agricultural Organization, F-A-O, FAO. And for that, at the Peace Corps headquarters in Tegucigalpa you'd talk to somebody and they'd say, okay, we'll get you one of these. It was a crop demonstration kit.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] And it was a box. And inside the box there would be like three kinds of corn seeds, three kinds of fertilizer, and three kinds of insecticide. So you'd go out and you'd find a farmer, hopefully with a plot that was on a path or a road or the corner. Something that was visible.

[Assistant] Where people could see this, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And you'd say, hey, look, if you'll plant these, plant these three rows this way, you know, plant these sections.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then the other way we're going to do these fertilizer, insecticide, and, uh, whatever the other thing was. Herbicide? Fertilizer? Anyway, the idea was one half of this thing would grow up big and tall.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And the other half would be all stunted.

[Assistant] Kind of puny, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly just putting a hole in the ground with a long stick. Some of the other guys had like oxen and they'd drag a simple plow through and do all that. But the point is, is that they had their seed corn and beans and so forth left over from the year before, and it was free and they'd go and plant it and they'd have a crop.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we'd say, oh, that stuff, you know, we can get you better seed and we can get you better fertilizer and this and that, but you're going to have to pay for it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so now this guy is making an investment of $200.

[Assistant] And can he use that, the seed from that improved crop for the following year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we'd say, oh, that stuff, you know, we can get you better seed and we can get you better fertilizer and this and that, but you're going to have to pay for it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so now this guy is making an investment of $200.

[Assistant] And can he use that, the seed from that improved crop for the following year?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like that.

[Assistant] Or did he have to keep buying it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a, it's an economic deal.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so we used to sit around and kind of theorize. But anyway, that was the food. And then the last was. This one, the credit union organization was really. I couldn't see any flaws to it, couldn't see any obvious problems. An outfit in Madison, Wisconsin, a Credit Union International [Association], CUNA, put together a Spanish language credit union promotional package. And there were books. There were like ledger books and accounting books. There were little pass books. There was all these like instructions in Spanish. So you'd get that thing. And we'd, we went to the priests, this time we got the priests involved. They were happy to be involved. They were great men, these French-Canadian priests and, uh. So. And the way we promoted it, it was kind of fun. I would get these, like two-reel movies. Cantinflas, this Mexican comedian.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] These are movies like out of the thirties and forties, black and white, and a generator and a projector. And get somebody with a wagon. We'd take that thing way out in the middle of nowhere and set it up, put the generator behind the hill and hang up a sheet and have a movie. And that was some, you know, people, they all knew what movies were. They'd all been to Tegucigalpa and seen movies, but nobody had had a movie there. And so that was fun. And so then you'd talk to them about the credit union and all the advantages, and you're going to bring this stuff out on such and such a date. You're going to have this training thing and the priests are involved and everything. It's going to be fine.

[Assistant] What was, what was the role of the priests? Were they the ones who would keep the money so that people would trust them not to rip them off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so, but it was also just sort of credibility and to get everybody involved. You know, you're basically trying to establish a branch bank in this remote area. These people do have some money they need to save and they could certainly use loans. Since then, these micro lien, loan things have become a big deal.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It's very interesting.

[Assistant] Isn't it?

[User] What they do in India.

[Assistant] But in 1966, that concept of microloans probably didn't exist.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's very interesting.

[Assistant] Isn't it?

[User] What they do in India.

[Assistant] But in 1966, that concept of microloans probably didn't exist.

[User] Never heard of it.

[Assistant] But this was sort of like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What they do in India.

[Assistant] But in 1966, that concept of microloans probably didn't exist.

[User] Never heard of it.

[Assistant] But this was sort of like that.

[User] Same thing.

[Assistant] People could get the capital they needed to get something started.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never heard of it.

[Assistant] But this was sort of like that.

[User] Same thing.

[Assistant] People could get the capital they needed to get something started.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] By borrowing it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Same thing.

[Assistant] People could get the capital they needed to get something started.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] By borrowing it.

[User] Right. And this American credit union thing had it all figured out, and they had a package. And so you just, you know, it took some time and you had to promote it and talk about it. But you'd have these meetings and these guys, they understood. They knew what in the city, their cousins and their relatives used banks and borrowed money to build houses and run businesses. And they wanted to do it too. So we did. We organized a credit union. Uh. And so, you know.

[Assistant] When you say we, who's the we? Who was working with you on organizing? I know about the priests, but who else was involved in getting this set up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] By borrowing it.

[User] Right. And this American credit union thing had it all figured out, and they had a package. And so you just, you know, it took some time and you had to promote it and talk about it. But you'd have these meetings and these guys, they understood. They knew what in the city, their cousins and their relatives used banks and borrowed money to build houses and run businesses. And they wanted to do it too. So we did. We organized a credit union. Uh. And so, you know.

[Assistant] When you say we, who's the we? Who was working with you on organizing? I know about the priests, but who else was involved in getting this set up?

[User] I can't remember specifically, but I think it would be the town leaders. David Carcamo lived across the street from me. He was a businessman and a store owner. He was older. You know, I was like 21, 22. He was probably 40. But he wanted to, uh, there were, there were businessmen types around. My landlord, Jesus, who had been a mayor of the town. He was a liberal. Liberal. And they kind of traded him back and forth between the liberal and the conservative parties. They'd trade these political positions of mayor and this and that. Well, he had a truck. He owned the truck. There were like maybe three trucks in town. And Don Jesus owned one of the trucks, La Rapida. You know.

[Assistant] The fast one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can't remember specifically, but I think it would be the town leaders. David Carcamo lived across the street from me. He was a businessman and a store owner. He was older. You know, I was like 21, 22. He was probably 40. But he wanted to, uh, there were, there were businessmen types around. My landlord, Jesus, who had been a mayor of the town. He was a liberal. Liberal. And they kind of traded him back and forth between the liberal and the conservative parties. They'd trade these political positions of mayor and this and that. Well, he had a truck. He owned the truck. There were like maybe three trucks in town. And Don Jesus owned one of the trucks, La Rapida. You know.

[Assistant] The fast one.

[User] And so, you know, two or three times a week he was going in to Tegucigalpa because on the way you'd pick people up and you'd pick up cargo, you'd pick up a sack of beans, load of chickens, and they'd sell it in Tegucigalpa and then come home. And he was the freight hauler for all that. Two or three times a week, he would do that. So, you know, he maintained that truck, he got gas for it and this and that. And I'm sure it wasn't the first truck he ever owned. So he was involved. The usual suspects, everybody, everybody participated. And we'd have the meetings in the schools and stuff. But it worked. They actually, we actually organized a credit union.

[Assistant] Who kept the money in? Was there a building for it or was it in the parish house?

[User] I think the priest did. But, you know, it was sort of on paper and in pass books and stuff. I think they might have taken the money like into Tegucigalpa and really put it in the bank.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And was there some capital that was given from somebody initially to get that started? Or did you have to start with what people invested when they trusted you with their own money?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Once we had it going and we had meetings and they had books and they could, you could kind of see that it was probably, nobody was going to just steal it.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Then you'd trust it and you'd put your little bit of money in there. You didn't have much money. You know, people are living, these rural families with that subsistence farming. They had a great standard of living. I don't want to suggest that they're starving or they were culturally deprived. It was fine, but it was not cash intensive. They didn't have cash. Buying oil, batteries, things that they couldn't make.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Was an issue.

[Assistant] Yeah. Buying a generator. You need cash.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then you'd trust it and you'd put your little bit of money in there. You didn't have much money. You know, people are living, these rural families with that subsistence farming. They had a great standard of living. I don't want to suggest that they're starving or they were culturally deprived. It was fine, but it was not cash intensive. They didn't have cash. Buying oil, batteries, things that they couldn't make.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Was an issue.

[Assistant] Yeah. Buying a generator. You need cash.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did, um, did you get any support from Peace Corps? Did you get advice, help? Did people from Tegucigalpa, Peace Corps staff, come out to visit you and see how you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Was an issue.

[Assistant] Yeah. Buying a generator. You need cash.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did, um, did you get any support from Peace Corps? Did you get advice, help? Did people from Tegucigalpa, Peace Corps staff, come out to visit you and see how you were doing?

[User] Not much, but that wasn't a problem. We had, we had friends, other Peace Corps volunteers that lived in nearby communities, Bill and Ed. They had their own projects. I was interested in watching them do their projects. They had that housing project in Nacaome, and that took up a lot of time and energy to kind of watch that thing. And we all talked about what we were doing and, and uh, but no, the staff didn't really come out. You'd talk to them in Teguc about what you're doing, what you need, which things you need, and they'd like get that. The doctors were helpful.

[Assistant] I was going to ask if the doctor came out to visit you and give you shots or something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did, um, did you get any support from Peace Corps? Did you get advice, help? Did people from Tegucigalpa, Peace Corps staff, come out to visit you and see how you were doing?

[User] Not much, but that wasn't a problem. We had, we had friends, other Peace Corps volunteers that lived in nearby communities, Bill and Ed. They had their own projects. I was interested in watching them do their projects. They had that housing project in Nacaome, and that took up a lot of time and energy to kind of watch that thing. And we all talked about what we were doing and, and uh, but no, the staff didn't really come out. You'd talk to them in Teguc about what you're doing, what you need, which things you need, and they'd like get that. The doctors were helpful.

[Assistant] I was going to ask if the doctor came out to visit you and give you shots or something.

[User] Yeah. I think his name was Peter. Beverly remembers the doctor, but he didn't really come out for, but just to visit us and support. We were near the Pan Am Highway. We were some of the most accessible volunteers in Honduras. We were not in a, when I say we were in a remote location, we were, it was primitive and it was remote. But it was also a stone's throw from the Pan Am Highway, which was a main thoroughfare for Central America.

[Assistant] Whereas other people might have been, I don't know, much more isolated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, could get there by Jeep.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And maybe once a week you'd have some car come in and it was remote.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] One bit of evidence about how accessible we were is this visit from my parents.

[Assistant] Talk about that. Your parents came when? When in your two years there did your parents come down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It must have been, you know, it was after a while. And I don't remember much of the planning, but my parents had been Airstream aficionados.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] This is 1966 or '67.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I bet they got their first Airstream in the mid fifties.

[Assistant] Ah, when you were a kid.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is 1966 or '67.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I bet they got their first Airstream in the mid fifties.

[Assistant] Ah, when you were a kid.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you remember it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I bet they got their first Airstream in the mid fifties.

[Assistant] Ah, when you were a kid.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you remember it?

[User] Oh, yeah. We went camping and traveling in that Airstream. And my parents, like, when I went, I started high school in '58. Well, after that, in the summer time, they'd go to Canada. And, uh, and they upgraded their Airstreams. They'd started with tiny little one and after a couple of years they'd get big. And they went on these Wally Byam caravans. That's the whole Airstream kind of thing. Well, I'm pretty sure by the time that they got to visit us, they had like a big four door Cadillac and I'm going to say a 24 foot Airstream.

[Assistant] Which they pulled behind the car?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. We went camping and traveling in that Airstream. And my parents, like, when I went, I started high school in '58. Well, after that, in the summer time, they'd go to Canada. And, uh, and they upgraded their Airstreams. They'd started with tiny little one and after a couple of years they'd get big. And they went on these Wally Byam caravans. That's the whole Airstream kind of thing. Well, I'm pretty sure by the time that they got to visit us, they had like a big four door Cadillac and I'm going to say a 24 foot Airstream.

[Assistant] Which they pulled behind the car?

[User] They drove from Peoria down through Mexico and through Guatemala and El Salvador.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they actually drove up. Our the road to the Pan Am was dirt and it wasn't very wide. It wasn't paved. But anyway, they drove on it because that's kind of the Airstream thing, you know, it's self-contained and it's the suspension and so forth. So they pulled it up in front of our house on that little cobblestone street. You know, it was quite the sensation in town.

[Assistant] I can only imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They drove from Peoria down through Mexico and through Guatemala and El Salvador.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they actually drove up. Our the road to the Pan Am was dirt and it wasn't very wide. It wasn't paved. But anyway, they drove on it because that's kind of the Airstream thing, you know, it's self-contained and it's the suspension and so forth. So they pulled it up in front of our house on that little cobblestone street. You know, it was quite the sensation in town.

[Assistant] I can only imagine.

[User] Look at what the Hanlons.

[Assistant] And you knew they were coming, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they actually drove up. Our the road to the Pan Am was dirt and it wasn't very wide. It wasn't paved. But anyway, they drove on it because that's kind of the Airstream thing, you know, it's self-contained and it's the suspension and so forth. So they pulled it up in front of our house on that little cobblestone street. You know, it was quite the sensation in town.

[Assistant] I can only imagine.

[User] Look at what the Hanlons.

[Assistant] And you knew they were coming, right?

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] How did you communicate with your folks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A letter mostly.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] You could get a telephone call, but it was complicated. Crank phone. You had to make announcements and it was letter, so we were just expecting them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They hung around for a day or two. We introduced them to everybody and walked them all around and showed them everything about Goascoran, and then Bev and I got in it for a two week odyssey.

[Assistant] The four of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They hung around for a day or two. We introduced them to everybody and walked them all around and showed them everything about Goascoran, and then Bev and I got in it for a two week odyssey.

[Assistant] The four of you?

[User] Four of us. You know, it's about the size of here, from here to that wall. That's 20 feet away.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so we were intimate, to say the least, and uh. But we had a great time.

[Assistant] Where did you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Four of us. You know, it's about the size of here, from here to that wall. That's 20 feet away.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so we were intimate, to say the least, and uh. But we had a great time.

[Assistant] Where did you go?

[User] We went up into the Yucatan. We went back, you know, through Guatemala, and then we went north out of Guatemala into the Yucatan. I think we went to Merida, which is, you know, the northern part of the Yucatan and then back and in two weeks. And then they dropped us off. And we had a lot of adventures. I could talk for hours about some of the great adventures, but then they drove back to the United States.

[Assistant] And what stories they had to tell.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so we were intimate, to say the least, and uh. But we had a great time.

[Assistant] Where did you go?

[User] We went up into the Yucatan. We went back, you know, through Guatemala, and then we went north out of Guatemala into the Yucatan. I think we went to Merida, which is, you know, the northern part of the Yucatan and then back and in two weeks. And then they dropped us off. And we had a lot of adventures. I could talk for hours about some of the great adventures, but then they drove back to the United States.

[Assistant] And what stories they had to tell.

[User] Oh my gosh.

[Assistant] So you kept in touch with your family writing letters. You had each other to talk to, but there wasn't any other Peace Corps volunteer in town.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went up into the Yucatan. We went back, you know, through Guatemala, and then we went north out of Guatemala into the Yucatan. I think we went to Merida, which is, you know, the northern part of the Yucatan and then back and in two weeks. And then they dropped us off. And we had a lot of adventures. I could talk for hours about some of the great adventures, but then they drove back to the United States.

[Assistant] And what stories they had to tell.

[User] Oh my gosh.

[Assistant] So you kept in touch with your family writing letters. You had each other to talk to, but there wasn't any other Peace Corps volunteer in town.

[User] No.

[Assistant] How often would you get together with other volunteers? You mentioned Jim and Ed. They were nearby, but in different towns.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] How often would you get together with other volunteers? You mentioned Jim and Ed. They were nearby, but in different towns.

[User] Our closest American friends were in Nacaome. Nacaome. And that's like maybe a half hour away. And you could walk down to the Pan Am, stand at the intersection, and within a half an hour you could get a ride for money, didn't have to have to hitchhike or anything.

[Assistant] Oh. Hmm.

[User] There'd be cars going back and forth, and it would take like maybe a half an hour to get to Nacaome. You'd, and they'd probably take you right into town. And so, and so we could go down there and. In Nacaome, there was Ed. He lived there. Bill and Marianne O'Hara. And there might have been some other people during those two years that I'm kind of forgetting, who spent a lot of time in Nacaome. At one point, Howie. Howie Knox was there because they did a housing project. I've shown you those slides.

[Assistant] Those guys were architects.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There'd be cars going back and forth, and it would take like maybe a half an hour to get to Nacaome. You'd, and they'd probably take you right into town. And so, and so we could go down there and. In Nacaome, there was Ed. He lived there. Bill and Marianne O'Hara. And there might have been some other people during those two years that I'm kind of forgetting, who spent a lot of time in Nacaome. At one point, Howie. Howie Knox was there because they did a housing project. I've shown you those slides.

[Assistant] Those guys were architects.

[User] Yeah. Howie Knox was an architect. And Jim Piker. Jim wasn't really stationed there I don't think. I think he had, he lived in Tegucigalpa, but he would spend time down there. Him and Howie, especially, could come down, because they made a special design for a single family house that was supposed to be, you know, very progressive but very economical. And I could talk about that house for hours, about all the things that they thought about putting into it and everything, how it was going to be an improvement over the traditional adobe house. Or even an improvement over the traditional tiled enclosure that would have four main corner posts, but then be filled in with twigs and leaves.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Without any windows and maybe not even a door. But it would keep the rain out, and it kept most of the wind out. That's the, the upgrade that was an adobe house. But anyway, so they, they thought up this thing and they got funding for it somehow and they built it. And it was, it was magnificent.

[Assistant] And so you and Bev would be able to go down and lift a few beers with them from time to time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Howie Knox was an architect. And Jim Piker. Jim wasn't really stationed there I don't think. I think he had, he lived in Tegucigalpa, but he would spend time down there. Him and Howie, especially, could come down, because they made a special design for a single family house that was supposed to be, you know, very progressive but very economical. And I could talk about that house for hours, about all the things that they thought about putting into it and everything, how it was going to be an improvement over the traditional adobe house. Or even an improvement over the traditional tiled enclosure that would have four main corner posts, but then be filled in with twigs and leaves.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Without any windows and maybe not even a door. But it would keep the rain out, and it kept most of the wind out. That's the, the upgrade that was an adobe house. But anyway, so they, they thought up this thing and they got funding for it somehow and they built it. And it was, it was magnificent.

[Assistant] And so you and Bev would be able to go down and lift a few beers with them from time to time?

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Without any windows and maybe not even a door. But it would keep the rain out, and it kept most of the wind out. That's the, the upgrade that was an adobe house. But anyway, so they, they thought up this thing and they got funding for it somehow and they built it. And it was, it was magnificent.

[Assistant] And so you and Bev would be able to go down and lift a few beers with them from time to time?

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[User] And they'd come over, when they got bored, they could come over our way.

[Assistant] And visit you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they'd come over, when they got bored, they could come over our way.

[Assistant] And visit you.

[User] And Ed, uh, he, I think that eventually he finagled some kind of a job. Maybe it was with the federal, with the credit union, federación de credit union. He had a jeep. And so he could pile two or three people in there and come over to our place. And if he had something to do down at the border, he could come get us, take us back.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So and then we had good friends in Tegucigalpa and there was ice cream in Tegucigalpa. And there was movies in Tegucigalpa. There were.

[Assistant] How often would you get into Tegucigalpa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And Ed, uh, he, I think that eventually he finagled some kind of a job. Maybe it was with the federal, with the credit union, federación de credit union. He had a jeep. And so he could pile two or three people in there and come over to our place. And if he had something to do down at the border, he could come get us, take us back.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So and then we had good friends in Tegucigalpa and there was ice cream in Tegucigalpa. And there was movies in Tegucigalpa. There were.

[Assistant] How often would you get into Tegucigalpa?

[User] I would think once a month.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would think once a month.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Okay.

[User] Maybe once every two months. Frequently.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That was what you did.

[Assistant] So it would keep you sane knowing that it was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe once every two months. Frequently.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That was what you did.

[Assistant] So it would keep you sane knowing that it was there?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. What about friendships with Honduran people? Did you manage to socialize at all with Hondurans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was what you did.

[Assistant] So it would keep you sane knowing that it was there?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. What about friendships with Honduran people? Did you manage to socialize at all with Hondurans?

[User] Yeah, we sure did. Yeah. I haven't talked about Bev at all. Bev had this great project.

[Assistant] But that's okay, Bev. Bev will have her own interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. What about friendships with Honduran people? Did you manage to socialize at all with Hondurans?

[User] Yeah, we sure did. Yeah. I haven't talked about Bev at all. Bev had this great project.

[Assistant] But that's okay, Bev. Bev will have her own interview.

[User] Yeah, but part of it is that her project. We were friends with some of her coworkers, so part of our socializing there had to do with, was kind of through her. The men that I worked with and in some of these remote locations, we didn't socialize with them too much. I didn't develop any big, strong friendships, but Beverly did. I tagged along.

[Assistant] And you get to be part of that scene.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we sure did. Yeah. I haven't talked about Bev at all. Bev had this great project.

[Assistant] But that's okay, Bev. Bev will have her own interview.

[User] Yeah, but part of it is that her project. We were friends with some of her coworkers, so part of our socializing there had to do with, was kind of through her. The men that I worked with and in some of these remote locations, we didn't socialize with them too much. I didn't develop any big, strong friendships, but Beverly did. I tagged along.

[Assistant] And you get to be part of that scene.

[User] Another thing I did, or we both did, was we taught English in the high school.

[Assistant] Oh, you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For a year or two.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] It was an evening class, I think.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Maybe it was an adult thing. It was, you know, here's an American. He speaks English. We've got to use them somehow. So they kind of enlisted that and got it going.

[Assistant] Oh, that's terrific. So your parents came what, about halfway into your time there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe it was an adult thing. It was, you know, here's an American. He speaks English. We've got to use them somehow. So they kind of enlisted that and got it going.

[Assistant] Oh, that's terrific. So your parents came what, about halfway into your time there?

[User] Uh. I think it was more like three-fourths or something.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] I think we were almost done.

[Assistant] Did you feel towards the end of your time that you were more efficient or whatever, that you were beginning to accomplish things in a way that you hadn't when you first arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh. I think it was more like three-fourths or something.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] I think we were almost done.

[Assistant] Did you feel towards the end of your time that you were more efficient or whatever, that you were beginning to accomplish things in a way that you hadn't when you first arrived?

[User] Uh, yes, but I really remember sort of a sense of boredom. And this is over, you know? I've got to move on.

[Assistant] Okay. So two years was about the right amount of time. Yeah. So your two years is eventually up. What was the goodbye scene like? You're about to leave Goascoran.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were almost done.

[Assistant] Did you feel towards the end of your time that you were more efficient or whatever, that you were beginning to accomplish things in a way that you hadn't when you first arrived?

[User] Uh, yes, but I really remember sort of a sense of boredom. And this is over, you know? I've got to move on.

[Assistant] Okay. So two years was about the right amount of time. Yeah. So your two years is eventually up. What was the goodbye scene like? You're about to leave Goascoran.

[User] The, I think the way I think about it is that our group still had another month or two to go. But because I was going to go to law school, there was a beginning date.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And stayed there for a couple of days. And then we caught a bus.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And we went through some coastal parts of the Yucatan. Then we went to Merida. And we stayed there for like maybe a week, maybe longer, and looked around at all the Mayan ruins and the old town. And then we flew from there to New Orleans.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And then we took another bus, like a Greyhound bus, from New Orleans to Peoria.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps give you money for transportation home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we went through some coastal parts of the Yucatan. Then we went to Merida. And we stayed there for like maybe a week, maybe longer, and looked around at all the Mayan ruins and the old town. And then we flew from there to New Orleans.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And then we took another bus, like a Greyhound bus, from New Orleans to Peoria.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps give you money for transportation home?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] A readjustment allowance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we took another bus, like a Greyhound bus, from New Orleans to Peoria.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps give you money for transportation home?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] A readjustment allowance?

[User] Yeah, something like that. You know, the financial thing was $75 per month per person.

[Assistant] Uh huh. That was set aside for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] A readjustment allowance?

[User] Yeah, something like that. You know, the financial thing was $75 per month per person.

[Assistant] Uh huh. That was set aside for you?

[User] Well, that in a minute. That was our salary.

[Assistant] Your living allowance. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, something like that. You know, the financial thing was $75 per month per person.

[Assistant] Uh huh. That was set aside for you?

[User] Well, that in a minute. That was our salary.

[Assistant] Your living allowance. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. So we had $150 a month.

[Assistant] For the two of you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that in a minute. That was our salary.

[Assistant] Your living allowance. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. So we had $150 a month.

[Assistant] For the two of you.

[User] Yeah, and that was a lot of money in Goascoran.

[Assistant] You were able to live on less.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and that was a lot of money in Goascoran.

[Assistant] You were able to live on less.

[User] Yeah, that was a lot of money.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Rent, beer, you know, electricity, gifts.

[Assistant] Ah, you had to pay your own rent out of that money to the landlord?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rent, beer, you know, electricity, gifts.

[Assistant] Ah, you had to pay your own rent out of that money to the landlord?

[User] Correct. But I think that was like maybe $20 a month. $15 a month. We had plenty of money to, and we could go into Tegucigalpa. We went on that vacation with my parents and I doubt if they helped us much. We, uh, so that was all. Then, concurrently with that, Peace Corps was saving the same amount for departure.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So when we left, 150 times 12, that's 1,800, times 2. $3,600 bucks. We had like almost $4,000.

[Assistant] Okay, and that back in 1966, that was more than it is now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So when we left, 150 times 12, that's 1,800, times 2. $3,600 bucks. We had like almost $4,000.

[Assistant] Okay, and that back in 1966, that was more than it is now.

[User] It was good. So we could like budget our going home.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And sort of getting set up in, a little time in Peoria, and then getting an apartment in Chicago and so forth.

[Assistant] Right. You had money for, uh, what do they call that? Security deposit on an apartment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was good. So we could like budget our going home.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And sort of getting set up in, a little time in Peoria, and then getting an apartment in Chicago and so forth.

[Assistant] Right. You had money for, uh, what do they call that? Security deposit on an apartment.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then you went to, uh, you lived in Chicago and Hyde Park. You went to law school at U of C.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then you went to, uh, you lived in Chicago and Hyde Park. You went to law school at U of C.

[User] Student housing. You know, Beverly was pregnant.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] And that was another deferment. As we ended that, started another one. There was a pregnancy. That was good. Sarah was born in January, so, you know, when we were going home in September. Something that we weren't aware of was all the politics of the '68 convention.

[Assistant] Oh, in Chicago. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was another deferment. As we ended that, started another one. There was a pregnancy. That was good. Sarah was born in January, so, you know, when we were going home in September. Something that we weren't aware of was all the politics of the '68 convention.

[Assistant] Oh, in Chicago. Yeah.

[User] And I, you know, I don't. I don't know when I stopped listening to the radio or stopped reading my Newsweek. For a while, it was, I was into, I could, but by then I didn't know anything.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so, you know, we got there and it was a hotbed of lots of things, but I couldn't comprehend it really. Beverly quickly got a job as a clerk typist or something in the administration building.

[Assistant] Of University of Chicago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I, you know, I don't. I don't know when I stopped listening to the radio or stopped reading my Newsweek. For a while, it was, I was into, I could, but by then I didn't know anything.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so, you know, we got there and it was a hotbed of lots of things, but I couldn't comprehend it really. Beverly quickly got a job as a clerk typist or something in the administration building.

[Assistant] Of University of Chicago?

[User] Yes. And that was nearby the law school. And I went over there and got my books, you know, and I'm studying. And there were a couple of other Peace Corps guys that were in my class and we all, you know, kind of.

[Assistant] You find each other, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Got together. And it was a small class, I think 150 people. And in '68, the entering class, I believe it was 70 or 80 percent men.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] It's that old fashioned.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] You know, nowadays it's half and half or I don't know. Very quickly, it became that. Maybe in those three years. It might be that the freshman class was, you know, a lot of. But anyway, my point is, is that there are lots of happening, things happening. And Beverly, within a couple of weeks of the start of her job, was locked out. The students took over the administration and for, I don't know, a week. And, you know, they were camping out in there and they were protesting and they were doing all this stuff. We're trying to figure out what's going on.

[Assistant] Were you able to continue your studies as a lawyer in law school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's that old fashioned.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] You know, nowadays it's half and half or I don't know. Very quickly, it became that. Maybe in those three years. It might be that the freshman class was, you know, a lot of. But anyway, my point is, is that there are lots of happening, things happening. And Beverly, within a couple of weeks of the start of her job, was locked out. The students took over the administration and for, I don't know, a week. And, you know, they were camping out in there and they were protesting and they were doing all this stuff. We're trying to figure out what's going on.

[Assistant] Were you able to continue your studies as a lawyer in law school?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] During all that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, nowadays it's half and half or I don't know. Very quickly, it became that. Maybe in those three years. It might be that the freshman class was, you know, a lot of. But anyway, my point is, is that there are lots of happening, things happening. And Beverly, within a couple of weeks of the start of her job, was locked out. The students took over the administration and for, I don't know, a week. And, you know, they were camping out in there and they were protesting and they were doing all this stuff. We're trying to figure out what's going on.

[Assistant] Were you able to continue your studies as a lawyer in law school?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] During all that?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So the administration building was locked down, but the classes went on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] During all that?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So the administration building was locked down, but the classes went on.

[User] The college or the university, it had to be a half mile. I don't know where it was, but it had nothing to do with the law school.

[Assistant] We could do a whole interview just on being in Chicago in 1968.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So the administration building was locked down, but the classes went on.

[User] The college or the university, it had to be a half mile. I don't know where it was, but it had nothing to do with the law school.

[Assistant] We could do a whole interview just on being in Chicago in 1968.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But we've got about, um, four or 5 minutes in which to finish up the rest of your life. You were a kid who was, what, 23 or so when you came out of Peace Corps, and you are now, what, 70 or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The college or the university, it had to be a half mile. I don't know where it was, but it had nothing to do with the law school.

[Assistant] We could do a whole interview just on being in Chicago in 1968.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But we've got about, um, four or 5 minutes in which to finish up the rest of your life. You were a kid who was, what, 23 or so when you came out of Peace Corps, and you are now, what, 70 or something?

[User] Yeah, 71.

[Assistant] In the intervening years, you've worked as a lawyer. Has, uh, and you've done other things as well. Do you think there's any, there was any effect of your experience in the Peace Corps on either the work that you did or on your view of the world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I had become familiar with Gerry’s Air Force career as we dated, and I was prepared to be a part of it. I’m not a women’s organization joiner, but I did join the officers’ wives’ club because it was expected of me. Women’s organizations are usually filled with more minutiae than I care to get buried in.\n\n I always had my own world. I would rather knock a wall down or repaint the house. I love rebuilding things, refinishing furniture, or doing the yard work. That’s just the way I am. I like working hard physically.

[Assistant] That’s good. Keeps you healthy too.

[User] Yes, but my body is rejecting me, in my old age. I’ve worn it out, but it’s okay. I wouldn’t have had it any other way.

[Assistant] Doing what you wanted. That sounds like you were still using that architect background.

[User] Yes, very active physically. Oh, man, I didn’t want to be in your book club or bridge club! Oh, please, no.

[Assistant] How long did you stay at that Air Force base in California?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but my body is rejecting me, in my old age. I’ve worn it out, but it’s okay. I wouldn’t have had it any other way.

[Assistant] Doing what you wanted. That sounds like you were still using that architect background.

[User] Yes, very active physically. Oh, man, I didn’t want to be in your book club or bridge club! Oh, please, no.

[Assistant] How long did you stay at that Air Force base in California?

[User] Gerry signed up for an extra period in order to get that good assignment, so we were there almost four years, which was absolutely fantastic. His first real pilot assigned to him was Bill [William A.] Anders. Valerie [Anders] and I were a part of the Air Force wives at the same time. Bill had already been in for a while, because he had graduated from the Naval Academy. Our shared lives with the Anders started long before our NAS years. Gerry had said back then, “Someday Bill is going to do something really big.” So when he got to be an astronaut he said, “Maybe that’s it.” However, it didn’t stop there, for sure.

[Assistant] You lived in California for a while, and at one point you moved to Fort Worth in ’62.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Shortly after we got there, they built the little movie house in Clear Lake City. It was over on the main street, whatever that was. I can’t remember the name of the street.

[Assistant] The theater was on El Camino Real. I think it’s a Chinese restaurant now or something.

[User] That was it. I never ever went. My next-door neighbor Mary Nell Pettitt did, but she spent most of her time at Gulfgate, the shopping center back toward Houston. I seldom went down there. I shopped at Mr. Penn’s, a small department store in League City. I stayed close to home. I hate shopping anyway. Penn’s had things I needed anyway – Levi’s Jeans, Boy Scout uniforms, and supplies. We had a movie in Clear Lake City, but no grocery store. I spent a lot of time in the hardware store in League City, because I was a den mother. It was attached to the grocery store. I would go to the grocery store and park Gwen on the end of the conveyor belt with the groceries. She loved it. It was a simple but good life, and I can’t complain about a thing. We didn’t see Gerry a lot, but everyplace we’ve lived Gerry has been totally occupied with his task and his challenge, and we were always in a support role. The same was true in Washington [D.C.]. We probably saw less of him when we lived in Virginia. He left before daylight and didn’t get home till after dark.

[Assistant] You had a boat.

[User] Always had a boat.

[Assistant] Did you use it much? Or did you have time as a family to go out in that boat when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was it. I never ever went. My next-door neighbor Mary Nell Pettitt did, but she spent most of her time at Gulfgate, the shopping center back toward Houston. I seldom went down there. I shopped at Mr. Penn’s, a small department store in League City. I stayed close to home. I hate shopping anyway. Penn’s had things I needed anyway – Levi’s Jeans, Boy Scout uniforms, and supplies. We had a movie in Clear Lake City, but no grocery store. I spent a lot of time in the hardware store in League City, because I was a den mother. It was attached to the grocery store. I would go to the grocery store and park Gwen on the end of the conveyor belt with the groceries. She loved it. It was a simple but good life, and I can’t complain about a thing. We didn’t see Gerry a lot, but everyplace we’ve lived Gerry has been totally occupied with his task and his challenge, and we were always in a support role. The same was true in Washington [D.C.]. We probably saw less of him when we lived in Virginia. He left before daylight and didn’t get home till after dark.

[Assistant] You had a boat.

[User] Always had a boat.

[Assistant] Did you use it much? Or did you have time as a family to go out in that boat when you were there?

[User] Oh yes. We’d load up and go water-skiing or just out for a boat ride.

[Assistant] Did you go out in the bay or did you stay in the lakes there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Always had a boat.

[Assistant] Did you use it much? Or did you have time as a family to go out in that boat when you were there?

[User] Oh yes. We’d load up and go water-skiing or just out for a boat ride.

[Assistant] Did you go out in the bay or did you stay in the lakes there?

[User] Oh, it was a little ski boat. We stayed in Clear Lake mostly. We had a sailboat which we sometimes sailed in the Nassau Bay Lake. We did a little of everything on the water. It was convenient and we could do a lot in a very little time.

[Assistant] When he had time off you mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. We’d load up and go water-skiing or just out for a boat ride.

[Assistant] Did you go out in the bay or did you stay in the lakes there?

[User] Oh, it was a little ski boat. We stayed in Clear Lake mostly. We had a sailboat which we sometimes sailed in the Nassau Bay Lake. We did a little of everything on the water. It was convenient and we could do a lot in a very little time.

[Assistant] When he had time off you mean?

[User] No, we could squeeze water skiing or a short sail in most any day we could find an hour or two. That was one of the nice things about living where we did. When we had “time off” we camped. Sometimes with our family only. Everybody was in the same boat. We all had little time and little money, so we all camped together. We had a pickup truck, and originally we put a mattress in the back. We later bought a pop-top tent trailer.

[Assistant] Where did you go camping?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was a little ski boat. We stayed in Clear Lake mostly. We had a sailboat which we sometimes sailed in the Nassau Bay Lake. We did a little of everything on the water. It was convenient and we could do a lot in a very little time.

[Assistant] When he had time off you mean?

[User] No, we could squeeze water skiing or a short sail in most any day we could find an hour or two. That was one of the nice things about living where we did. When we had “time off” we camped. Sometimes with our family only. Everybody was in the same boat. We all had little time and little money, so we all camped together. We had a pickup truck, and originally we put a mattress in the back. We later bought a pop-top tent trailer.

[Assistant] Where did you go camping?

[User] Back early on our family-favorite place to camp was Dam B up in East Texas. When we came back as Center Director, we went to Lake Livingston, also in East Texas, several times, with people like John [W.] and Cheryl Aaron. We water-skied, and we fished trotlines. We didn’t do serious fishing. We caught catfish, had group fish fry’s, water-skied, and enjoyed the company. We did take several family vacations with brother Larry and his family to National Parks in Colorado and Montana.

[Assistant] Did you go into Houston much during those early years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we could squeeze water skiing or a short sail in most any day we could find an hour or two. That was one of the nice things about living where we did. When we had “time off” we camped. Sometimes with our family only. Everybody was in the same boat. We all had little time and little money, so we all camped together. We had a pickup truck, and originally we put a mattress in the back. We later bought a pop-top tent trailer.

[Assistant] Where did you go camping?

[User] Back early on our family-favorite place to camp was Dam B up in East Texas. When we came back as Center Director, we went to Lake Livingston, also in East Texas, several times, with people like John [W.] and Cheryl Aaron. We water-skied, and we fished trotlines. We didn’t do serious fishing. We caught catfish, had group fish fry’s, water-skied, and enjoyed the company. We did take several family vacations with brother Larry and his family to National Parks in Colorado and Montana.

[Assistant] Did you go into Houston much during those early years?

[User] Almost never. We did have an occasional official event in town, but Gerry and I preferred to do home, boat, and car projects.

[Assistant] You said you didn’t go to Gulfgate, so I wondered if you went anywhere in Houston.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Back early on our family-favorite place to camp was Dam B up in East Texas. When we came back as Center Director, we went to Lake Livingston, also in East Texas, several times, with people like John [W.] and Cheryl Aaron. We water-skied, and we fished trotlines. We didn’t do serious fishing. We caught catfish, had group fish fry’s, water-skied, and enjoyed the company. We did take several family vacations with brother Larry and his family to National Parks in Colorado and Montana.

[Assistant] Did you go into Houston much during those early years?

[User] Almost never. We did have an occasional official event in town, but Gerry and I preferred to do home, boat, and car projects.

[Assistant] You said you didn’t go to Gulfgate, so I wondered if you went anywhere in Houston.

[User] No, not really. I did take the kids to the Houston Zoo, the circus, and Peppermint Park [Kiddieland]. Some things like that.

[Assistant] How about Galveston? Did you ever go to the beaches and do any water things in Galveston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Almost never. We did have an occasional official event in town, but Gerry and I preferred to do home, boat, and car projects.

[Assistant] You said you didn’t go to Gulfgate, so I wondered if you went anywhere in Houston.

[User] No, not really. I did take the kids to the Houston Zoo, the circus, and Peppermint Park [Kiddieland]. Some things like that.

[Assistant] How about Galveston? Did you ever go to the beaches and do any water things in Galveston?

[User] I took the kids a few times, but neither Gerry nor I are beach people.

[Assistant] Stuck to the lakes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I did take the kids to the Houston Zoo, the circus, and Peppermint Park [Kiddieland]. Some things like that.

[Assistant] How about Galveston? Did you ever go to the beaches and do any water things in Galveston?

[User] I took the kids a few times, but neither Gerry nor I are beach people.

[Assistant] Stuck to the lakes.

[User] Yes, stuck to the lakes. Beaches are sandy and gritty. I don’t really like sand and saltwater. Besides, I’m a hill country person.

[Assistant] Yes, you like that clear river water, don’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I took the kids a few times, but neither Gerry nor I are beach people.

[Assistant] Stuck to the lakes.

[User] Yes, stuck to the lakes. Beaches are sandy and gritty. I don’t really like sand and saltwater. Besides, I’m a hill country person.

[Assistant] Yes, you like that clear river water, don’t you?

[User] I like the clear river water, that’s right.

[Assistant] I understand that. Did you ever get a chance to do things maybe without the kids? Did you have childcare options early on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, stuck to the lakes. Beaches are sandy and gritty. I don’t really like sand and saltwater. Besides, I’m a hill country person.

[Assistant] Yes, you like that clear river water, don’t you?

[User] I like the clear river water, that’s right.

[Assistant] I understand that. Did you ever get a chance to do things maybe without the kids? Did you have childcare options early on?

[User] Just babysitters. We went to splashdown parties and an occasional dinner out, but not much else. I used to say, “Oh, just take me to downtown Houston and check me into a hotel just one night.” But we never did. We didn’t really have time. I would load the kids up and come up here [Kerrville, Texas] to visit my mom. Sometimes Gerry came with us but usually we came without him. I didn’t require that he be with me. I could come up here by myself, and I enjoyed driving. I was pretty independent.\n\n We did make a ski trip and an elk hunting trip without the kids. Both times we traded sitting chores with Ellie and Arnie [[Arnold D.] Aldrich.

[Assistant] I know we’ve read, and some of the astronaut wives we’ve talked to, they had an informal get-together every once in a while, as wives. I know you mentioned you weren’t a joiner for women’s clubs. But did the mission control wives do anything similar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it took the world over. It overwhelmed those communities. Webster fought it for years. Webster didn’t want us there. They finally have embraced the whole thing, it was interesting to watch it happen. The NASA/Clear Lake community was being created.\n\n The vortex created “the community.” In effect the community didn’t exist. There were little communities, but they were totally individual. Seabrook and Kemah and those along the water were fishing communities. I don’t know what Webster was, it was just this little town between Houston and Galveston. It had an elementary and middle school, a post office, a fire station, a couple of churches, and a few businesses.\n\n I don’t know, but I think most of us just ignored the people that lived in Webster. They probably hated us, because they were losing their community as they knew it. It didn’t make any difference whether they hated us or not, we were there, and their world was changing.

[Assistant] What about the schools that were available and how quickly they grew? Where did the kids go to school?

[User] Webster. The schools already were good, and they have remained good, there’s no question. The Clear Creek school system cannot be beat. It’s grown beautifully with the community. Early school systems around the area carried this incredible load dumped in the laps.\n\n That whole community is just impressive from beginning to end. In fact my grandson and his family have just moved down south of League City, and I think it’s the smartest thing they’ve ever done. Their world is very much like our world was, and that doesn’t happen very often. Particularly in Houston. I think it’s great. The school system is incredible. They can’t find a bad school in that whole area.

[Assistant] It was planned well, as you said, early on.

[User] Extremely well. The school system was well managed very early on, I don’t know who was running it, but somebody knew what they were doing.

[Assistant] It is an interesting area. Especially at JSC we have a lot of wildlife still on site.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Webster. The schools already were good, and they have remained good, there’s no question. The Clear Creek school system cannot be beat. It’s grown beautifully with the community. Early school systems around the area carried this incredible load dumped in the laps.\n\n That whole community is just impressive from beginning to end. In fact my grandson and his family have just moved down south of League City, and I think it’s the smartest thing they’ve ever done. Their world is very much like our world was, and that doesn’t happen very often. Particularly in Houston. I think it’s great. The school system is incredible. They can’t find a bad school in that whole area.

[Assistant] It was planned well, as you said, early on.

[User] Extremely well. The school system was well managed very early on, I don’t know who was running it, but somebody knew what they were doing.

[Assistant] It is an interesting area. Especially at JSC we have a lot of wildlife still on site.

[User] Yes, you do.

[Assistant] In some of the communities though, when it was first building up, there was a lot of wildlife. There were deer, there were wild hogs, there were all kinds of things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Extremely well. The school system was well managed very early on, I don’t know who was running it, but somebody knew what they were doing.

[Assistant] It is an interesting area. Especially at JSC we have a lot of wildlife still on site.

[User] Yes, you do.

[Assistant] In some of the communities though, when it was first building up, there was a lot of wildlife. There were deer, there were wild hogs, there were all kinds of things.

[User] Still are, I think.

[Assistant] In some of them there are, but it has built up so much. Do you remember any of that kind of thing when the kids were little?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you do.

[Assistant] In some of the communities though, when it was first building up, there was a lot of wildlife. There were deer, there were wild hogs, there were all kinds of things.

[User] Still are, I think.

[Assistant] In some of them there are, but it has built up so much. Do you remember any of that kind of thing when the kids were little?

[User] Oh, sure, mostly the giant mosquitoes that picked up my kids and carried them off. The fogging trucks that my kids rode their bicycles right behind spraying DDT [Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, used as insecticide] that seemed not to affect my kids at all. No. I have no regrets.\n\n The wildlife, there are still wild hogs down there I’m sure. We never did see any, but of course they were there. Deer everywhere, and critters of all kinds, but mostly mosquitoes. The wildlife was never a problem to living in the area. The hard part was controlling the mosquito issue, but again smart people have made it livable.

[Assistant] Yes. It’s still an issue.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Still are, I think.

[Assistant] In some of them there are, but it has built up so much. Do you remember any of that kind of thing when the kids were little?

[User] Oh, sure, mostly the giant mosquitoes that picked up my kids and carried them off. The fogging trucks that my kids rode their bicycles right behind spraying DDT [Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, used as insecticide] that seemed not to affect my kids at all. No. I have no regrets.\n\n The wildlife, there are still wild hogs down there I’m sure. We never did see any, but of course they were there. Deer everywhere, and critters of all kinds, but mostly mosquitoes. The wildlife was never a problem to living in the area. The hard part was controlling the mosquito issue, but again smart people have made it livable.

[Assistant] Yes. It’s still an issue.

[User] Oh, of course it is. But the wildlife, it still exists no matter what. I think that adds to the quality of life.

[Assistant] I know a lot of the neighborhoods, especially the ones that had astronauts living in them, had tour buses come through, and the press, the public interest. Was that in your neighborhood too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure, mostly the giant mosquitoes that picked up my kids and carried them off. The fogging trucks that my kids rode their bicycles right behind spraying DDT [Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, used as insecticide] that seemed not to affect my kids at all. No. I have no regrets.\n\n The wildlife, there are still wild hogs down there I’m sure. We never did see any, but of course they were there. Deer everywhere, and critters of all kinds, but mostly mosquitoes. The wildlife was never a problem to living in the area. The hard part was controlling the mosquito issue, but again smart people have made it livable.

[Assistant] Yes. It’s still an issue.

[User] Oh, of course it is. But the wildlife, it still exists no matter what. I think that adds to the quality of life.

[Assistant] I know a lot of the neighborhoods, especially the ones that had astronauts living in them, had tour buses come through, and the press, the public interest. Was that in your neighborhood too?

[User] Not in our particular block, because we didn’t have any astronauts, but in Nassau Bay it certainly was a problem. It was a pain in the neck. It limited where you could go during a mission because the paparazzi was there. It’s just like it is anywhere. Yes, it impacted all the neighborhoods. It’s like I said, we went to St. Martin’s Episcopal Church except when the president was there for the same reason. You couldn’t even get close to the place when the president was in town. It was the same kind of thing. I didn’t envy the astronaut families at all, I felt sorry for them because they couldn’t escape. I was glad that the world ignored us actually.

[Assistant] You talked about belonging to that officers’ wives’ club because it was expected of you. Was there anything expected once Gerry became a flight director?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, of course it is. But the wildlife, it still exists no matter what. I think that adds to the quality of life.

[Assistant] I know a lot of the neighborhoods, especially the ones that had astronauts living in them, had tour buses come through, and the press, the public interest. Was that in your neighborhood too?

[User] Not in our particular block, because we didn’t have any astronauts, but in Nassau Bay it certainly was a problem. It was a pain in the neck. It limited where you could go during a mission because the paparazzi was there. It’s just like it is anywhere. Yes, it impacted all the neighborhoods. It’s like I said, we went to St. Martin’s Episcopal Church except when the president was there for the same reason. You couldn’t even get close to the place when the president was in town. It was the same kind of thing. I didn’t envy the astronaut families at all, I felt sorry for them because they couldn’t escape. I was glad that the world ignored us actually.

[Assistant] You talked about belonging to that officers’ wives’ club because it was expected of you. Was there anything expected once Gerry became a flight director?

[User] No.

[Assistant] There wasn’t anything social that you were responsible for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in our particular block, because we didn’t have any astronauts, but in Nassau Bay it certainly was a problem. It was a pain in the neck. It limited where you could go during a mission because the paparazzi was there. It’s just like it is anywhere. Yes, it impacted all the neighborhoods. It’s like I said, we went to St. Martin’s Episcopal Church except when the president was there for the same reason. You couldn’t even get close to the place when the president was in town. It was the same kind of thing. I didn’t envy the astronaut families at all, I felt sorry for them because they couldn’t escape. I was glad that the world ignored us actually.

[Assistant] You talked about belonging to that officers’ wives’ club because it was expected of you. Was there anything expected once Gerry became a flight director?

[User] No.

[Assistant] There wasn’t anything social that you were responsible for?

[User] Just don’t get a ticket on base (the Center). Don’t do anything on base to get in trouble. Gerry told me the same thing when we got married.

[Assistant] During a break, we were talking about Helen Garriott. Now that we’re back on, maybe you can just talk about the canoe that she built, and maybe some of the other things you had in common with her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] There wasn’t anything social that you were responsible for?

[User] Just don’t get a ticket on base (the Center). Don’t do anything on base to get in trouble. Gerry told me the same thing when we got married.

[Assistant] During a break, we were talking about Helen Garriott. Now that we’re back on, maybe you can just talk about the canoe that she built, and maybe some of the other things you had in common with her.

[User] I got to know Helen Garriott because she was a Cub Scout leader at the same time I was, and she has a son. We had that in common, but she did all kinds of things. I was in awe of her. She did ceramics, and at the time made Moon Pots. She called them funny little saggy pots. I have one that I just absolutely love, and it has the landing sites and things marked on it with rhinestones. But she’s the only person I’ve ever known that built a canoe from scratch, literally, with wooden stays and covered with canvas and painted green. I was always in awe of Helen. Amazing lady, and fine artist actually, but could do anything.\n\n She sent a robot to her son’s wedding. He got married in Europe and she sent a robot with her picture glued to the main body of it so that the people could literally talk to her live. An amazing lady.

[Assistant] We were talking just a few minutes ago that you got golf lessons from your husband around 1970.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes and no, I think. We were probably more aware than the guys of what was going on in the rest of the world. We were watching the news every day, more so than the guys because they didn’t have time to sit and watch the news. There was great unrest, but we were also involved in what our husbands were doing. We just went through that time. In fact Gerry’s twin brother was in Vietnam, and Gerry was prepared at the drop of a hat to go to Vietnam if brother Larry had been missing or something. He would have packed and gone, which I thought would have been stupid, but he would have done it.

[Assistant] It’s a twin thing I’m sure.

[User] It was the twin thing. But Larry got home just fine, and we had a big party.

[Assistant] I imagine that was stressful, knowing his brother was there, and then still having to concentrate so hard on what he was doing.

[User] I don’t think he thought much about it. It was just a matter of fact. I did all the correspondence. I drew cartoons. Larry would write to us and then I would draw a cartoon of whatever he had written about that time and send it back to him. He has a whole collection of them.

[Assistant] That’s nice. You just kept him informed of what was going on with the family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the twin thing. But Larry got home just fine, and we had a big party.

[Assistant] I imagine that was stressful, knowing his brother was there, and then still having to concentrate so hard on what he was doing.

[User] I don’t think he thought much about it. It was just a matter of fact. I did all the correspondence. I drew cartoons. Larry would write to us and then I would draw a cartoon of whatever he had written about that time and send it back to him. He has a whole collection of them.

[Assistant] That’s nice. You just kept him informed of what was going on with the family?

[User] I did. Gerry maybe wrote him once. I don’t remember. I did all of the letter writing. As I said, I would draw a cartoon and return it to him to give him something to smile about. His family, they moved to Clear Lake to live near us. Gerry became the surrogate father. In fact Larry’s daughter was born while he was in Vietnam, and Gerry is her other daddy. He took Judy to the hospital, during the middle of some flight probably. We had so much going on, and Gerry still played golf too.

[Assistant] Found some time to relax every once in a while.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think he thought much about it. It was just a matter of fact. I did all the correspondence. I drew cartoons. Larry would write to us and then I would draw a cartoon of whatever he had written about that time and send it back to him. He has a whole collection of them.

[Assistant] That’s nice. You just kept him informed of what was going on with the family?

[User] I did. Gerry maybe wrote him once. I don’t remember. I did all of the letter writing. As I said, I would draw a cartoon and return it to him to give him something to smile about. His family, they moved to Clear Lake to live near us. Gerry became the surrogate father. In fact Larry’s daughter was born while he was in Vietnam, and Gerry is her other daddy. He took Judy to the hospital, during the middle of some flight probably. We had so much going on, and Gerry still played golf too.

[Assistant] Found some time to relax every once in a while.

[User] Just on and on.

[Assistant] In listening to you and some of the other wives we talked to, women traditionally are the heart of the family, the ones that keep things going, and as you mentioned doing the correspondence for him because he was busy with his brother and doing different things. Before we started, we talked about how important it was that you were able to do that, because if the wives weren’t doing that, then their husbands wouldn’t have been able to concentrate on what they were doing, and how important to the mission that contribution that you made was and how you feel about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. Gerry maybe wrote him once. I don’t remember. I did all of the letter writing. As I said, I would draw a cartoon and return it to him to give him something to smile about. His family, they moved to Clear Lake to live near us. Gerry became the surrogate father. In fact Larry’s daughter was born while he was in Vietnam, and Gerry is her other daddy. He took Judy to the hospital, during the middle of some flight probably. We had so much going on, and Gerry still played golf too.

[Assistant] Found some time to relax every once in a while.

[User] Just on and on.

[Assistant] In listening to you and some of the other wives we talked to, women traditionally are the heart of the family, the ones that keep things going, and as you mentioned doing the correspondence for him because he was busy with his brother and doing different things. Before we started, we talked about how important it was that you were able to do that, because if the wives weren’t doing that, then their husbands wouldn’t have been able to concentrate on what they were doing, and how important to the mission that contribution that you made was and how you feel about that.

[User] I didn’t think about it at the time, but yes, absolutely, I do now. I’m proud of me.

[Assistant] With good reason, because it’s important to keep things running.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just on and on.

[Assistant] In listening to you and some of the other wives we talked to, women traditionally are the heart of the family, the ones that keep things going, and as you mentioned doing the correspondence for him because he was busy with his brother and doing different things. Before we started, we talked about how important it was that you were able to do that, because if the wives weren’t doing that, then their husbands wouldn’t have been able to concentrate on what they were doing, and how important to the mission that contribution that you made was and how you feel about that.

[User] I didn’t think about it at the time, but yes, absolutely, I do now. I’m proud of me.

[Assistant] With good reason, because it’s important to keep things running.

[User] Yes, and I was capable of doing that. I really was not very tolerant of women who were not willing or didn’t think they were able to stand up and take care of things. I am not very patient with them, I wasn’t then and still aren’t.

[Assistant] Not all the marriages survived, unfortunately.