[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I went to a restaurant and muddled my way through somehow and had eggplant parmesan.

[Assistant] Oh, very nice.

[User] Which was delicious. And it was an outdoor restaurant that I remember. And then I went to a coffee shop and ordered myself a cappuccino, even though I didn't know what a cappuccino was. And so I guess it was just a step by step process. A lot of hit and miss, sort of bumbling around. When I got to the program, the art program, the actual classes, then of course it was an American speaking population of students and teachers.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that was helpful because then I could get information in English about things that were of interest to see, places to go. [tape break] Yes, it's still going.

[Assistant] We might have to wait for, if there's a little lead tape in here. Not sure, but I think we can just keep on going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which was delicious. And it was an outdoor restaurant that I remember. And then I went to a coffee shop and ordered myself a cappuccino, even though I didn't know what a cappuccino was. And so I guess it was just a step by step process. A lot of hit and miss, sort of bumbling around. When I got to the program, the art program, the actual classes, then of course it was an American speaking population of students and teachers.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that was helpful because then I could get information in English about things that were of interest to see, places to go. [tape break] Yes, it's still going.

[Assistant] We might have to wait for, if there's a little lead tape in here. Not sure, but I think we can just keep on going.

[User] Now, part of that experience was that the roommate that I had was somebody that was part of the Temple program, she and I just had met and decided to buddy up. Um. She had a friend who was coming back from Africa and coming through Rome on her way back to the United States. And this friend had just completed two years of service in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ah, so you're, now you're meeting somebody who is a Peace Corps volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, part of that experience was that the roommate that I had was somebody that was part of the Temple program, she and I just had met and decided to buddy up. Um. She had a friend who was coming back from Africa and coming through Rome on her way back to the United States. And this friend had just completed two years of service in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Ah, so you're, now you're meeting somebody who is a Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] So here's the flesh and blood. And it was a young woman and she was a couple of years older than I was, but she wasn't markedly different. In other words, there was an analog, I could see an analog. You know, she's female, she's single. She did this.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that means that, at least hypothetically, I could do the same thing.

[Assistant] That's right. And you, wait, you were in Rome when you met her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So here's the flesh and blood. And it was a young woman and she was a couple of years older than I was, but she wasn't markedly different. In other words, there was an analog, I could see an analog. You know, she's female, she's single. She did this.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that means that, at least hypothetically, I could do the same thing.

[Assistant] That's right. And you, wait, you were in Rome when you met her?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And she was traveling through. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that means that, at least hypothetically, I could do the same thing.

[Assistant] That's right. And you, wait, you were in Rome when you met her?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And she was traveling through. Yeah.

[User] And it just so happened that her, my roommate at that point was her friend. So she came and stayed for a couple of days.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it seemed to me like it was, again, a step beyond what I had already done, because I had been in Chicago and I'd been in Ann Arbor and then I'd been now in Rome. So, you know, Africa was a big step.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But it was a step that was at least imaginable.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It made, it made it imaginable. It made, it made something that had been a kind of a thought in the back of my mind, uh, visible. Here's, here's.

[Assistant] Here's a person who actually.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was a step that was at least imaginable.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It made, it made it imaginable. It made, it made something that had been a kind of a thought in the back of my mind, uh, visible. Here's, here's.

[Assistant] Here's a person who actually.

[User] Here's a representation. This person is a living, breathing confirmation that this can be done.

[Assistant] And she's not exactly Superman. She's an ordinary person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I had growing up in St. Joe, Michigan, been aware in 1961 of Kennedy's speech, I was in the ninth grade, of Kennedy's speech. And I remember hearing this proposal about a Peace Corps and what it would be like, loosely speaking. And thinking to myself, and I didn't say it to anyone, but thinking to myself, I'd like to do that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Really with no background information other than that sounds like something I'd like to do.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So that's ninth grade. And then when I finished my junior year of college and then I meet an actual Peace Corps volunteer who is female coming back from Africa.

[Assistant] But you have another year at Cornell left before you can do anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Really with no background information other than that sounds like something I'd like to do.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So that's ninth grade. And then when I finished my junior year of college and then I meet an actual Peace Corps volunteer who is female coming back from Africa.

[Assistant] But you have another year at Cornell left before you can do anything?

[User] I have another year at Cornell, so I.

[Assistant] Go back to Cornell.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's ninth grade. And then when I finished my junior year of college and then I meet an actual Peace Corps volunteer who is female coming back from Africa.

[Assistant] But you have another year at Cornell left before you can do anything?

[User] I have another year at Cornell, so I.

[Assistant] Go back to Cornell.

[User] Go back to Cornell. It's the height of the anti-war era.

[Assistant] So where are we now, 1967?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know I'm going to graduate in June, I guess, of '68. I have no idea what I want to do with my life. Other than I do not want to be the things that my parents thought would be my future.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] My father, even though he was an executive, his career consultation, if one can call it that, with me was that I would be a right hand gal to an executive. And he had a high regard for these right hand gals because he was an executive and they made his life possible.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So it wasn't for him denigrating. He, he had tremendous regard for these women. But it offended me, again, because our whole life, when I say our I mean my whole family life, up until that point had been dictated by his, his choices. His career choices. Every single move we made, that's predicated on decisions that involved.

[Assistant] Right. And your mother was willing to say.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it wasn't for him denigrating. He, he had tremendous regard for these women. But it offended me, again, because our whole life, when I say our I mean my whole family life, up until that point had been dictated by his, his choices. His career choices. Every single move we made, that's predicated on decisions that involved.

[Assistant] Right. And your mother was willing to say.

[User] Yes, dear. Of course we'll move to St Joseph, Michigan. I don't think she was a yes, she wasn't a yes woman. But on the other hand, she fully embraced her role.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That was available to her as an educated woman at that time.

[Assistant] At that time and in that age, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, it offended me. And I think partly it offended me because I had a brother who was 18 months older and I could see that there really wasn't that much difference between us.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Not as people.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] As people there was no difference other than he was a boy and I was a girl. And so I became more and more offended.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you mention to your parents after you got back from Rome that you were thinking about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not as people.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] As people there was no difference other than he was a boy and I was a girl. And so I became more and more offended.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you mention to your parents after you got back from Rome that you were thinking about Peace Corps?

[User] No, not yet. Not yet. No. I don't even think I was thinking consciously about it as a, as a, as a goal at that point. It was still there, but it wasn't that I was thinking of it as a goal. I met a young man right at the beginning of the year who was a graduate student, uh, first year graduate student in philosophy, and um, we spent quite a bit of time together.

[Assistant] And this would be David Eger?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As people there was no difference other than he was a boy and I was a girl. And so I became more and more offended.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you mention to your parents after you got back from Rome that you were thinking about Peace Corps?

[User] No, not yet. Not yet. No. I don't even think I was thinking consciously about it as a, as a, as a goal at that point. It was still there, but it wasn't that I was thinking of it as a goal. I met a young man right at the beginning of the year who was a graduate student, uh, first year graduate student in philosophy, and um, we spent quite a bit of time together.

[Assistant] And this would be David Eger?

[User] Yes, this is David Eger. We spent a lot of time together. We had a lot in common. And somewhere around the middle of the year, around wintertime, um, discussions arose about what I was going to do and so forth when I graduated. I knew that I didn't want any more academic schooling at that point. But that didn't answer the question of what I did want to do, because mostly at that point I knew what I didn't want to do. I didn't want to go to, uh, through more schooling. Uh, I did not want to become somebody's right hand gal and I did not want to work in a Hallmark card shop.

[Assistant] Right. But you might want to join the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I knew that I also didn't want to protest the war by getting on a bus in Ithaca and driving all night on the bus and getting out in Washington, D.C. and participating in a march. That wasn't my style. I just didn't feel like that was an expression of who I was.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And so then the question became for me, what is the expression of who I am? Because now I've got all these expressions of who I am not. So David and I began to talk about ways to make a contribution because he had been involved also in an anti-war summer program at Wesleyan where he had graduated. So he, he had a strong anti-war agenda too, but again in an affirmative direction, which is to say education and voter registration and trying to change people's hearts and minds, if you will, rather than protesting in large demonstrations.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And so in this context, I said, well, how about we consider the Peace Corps?

[Assistant] Yes. Something else occurs to me. In 1967, 1968, David was very much eligible for the draft.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so then the question became for me, what is the expression of who I am? Because now I've got all these expressions of who I am not. So David and I began to talk about ways to make a contribution because he had been involved also in an anti-war summer program at Wesleyan where he had graduated. So he, he had a strong anti-war agenda too, but again in an affirmative direction, which is to say education and voter registration and trying to change people's hearts and minds, if you will, rather than protesting in large demonstrations.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And so in this context, I said, well, how about we consider the Peace Corps?

[Assistant] Yes. Something else occurs to me. In 1967, 1968, David was very much eligible for the draft.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps would serve a purpose for him in a way that it wouldn't for you, that it would give him two years’ time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But when the announcement came that there would be a draft and that everybody would have a number and the number would be drawn on a lottery basis, so you had no say so. And if you hadn't completed two years of graduate school by that point, you would be eligible for the draft. So we knew that he would be eligible for the draft. He had only, by the end of that year would have only completed one year.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] That galvanized, I think, our thinking into what are the affirmative ways that we can address the larger issue of our antiwar sentiments, but also the very specific issue of your draft eligibility. Because he, he was, he eventually became a conscientious objector.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] But that way of thinking was already well established in him.

[Assistant] Yeah, he had to document it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That galvanized, I think, our thinking into what are the affirmative ways that we can address the larger issue of our antiwar sentiments, but also the very specific issue of your draft eligibility. Because he, he was, he eventually became a conscientious objector.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] But that way of thinking was already well established in him.

[Assistant] Yeah, he had to document it.

[User] And I understood fully. I mean, if I had been a male, that would have been a position I would have taken. A lot of people from Cornell at that point were going to Canada. They were sort of disappearing, if you will, into the woods. I don't know. You know, building a yurt in the, in the woods. People sort of vanished who might be eligible. Our thinking then was, okay. And at that point, I proposed the Peace Corps. I said, I've thought about this in the back of my mind since I was in ninth grade, and he had not ever thought of it. But I said, let's think about it seriously. Let's find out more.

[Assistant] And the, but the other thing that you haven't mentioned is that you're also talking about getting married and spending your lives together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But there was no point that we had identified that we would get married. Things changed dramatically with the decision to pursue a Peace Corps experience.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The Peace Corps. When we applied, we applied separately as individuals because we were not married. And the Peace Corps position at that time was if you apply as an individual, we will treat you as an individual and we can send you or offer you placements anywhere in the world. And it's completely autonomous from this other person.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] David Eger, that you are applying in effect with, that you want to be placed with. They said we.

[Assistant] They can't promise to give you the same placement.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So once that became clear, because we decided we wanted to be together, I mean, we had already decided to be together.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It became quite clear that we needed to be married if we wanted to end up in the same place, which is what we wanted to do. So this is where the cart gets a little before the horse, and that is that we got married right after I graduated. So it would have been late May of 1968. I think we would have married eventually, but it would not have been necessarily that soon.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We stayed the summer at Cornell. Now, once we had applied to and let the Peace Corps know that we were getting married, then they did process our applications together.

[Assistant] And I have to ask you, at this point, did your Peace Corps application ask you a question about if you had a preference for any particular country or any particular part of the world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It became quite clear that we needed to be married if we wanted to end up in the same place, which is what we wanted to do. So this is where the cart gets a little before the horse, and that is that we got married right after I graduated. So it would have been late May of 1968. I think we would have married eventually, but it would not have been necessarily that soon.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We stayed the summer at Cornell. Now, once we had applied to and let the Peace Corps know that we were getting married, then they did process our applications together.

[Assistant] And I have to ask you, at this point, did your Peace Corps application ask you a question about if you had a preference for any particular country or any particular part of the world?

[User] It did. And I think what I recall the preference is that we put down, one was Asia and one was, uh, South America.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cornell had a very extensive Southeast Asian Department. And I went to that department and I said, do you have anything about Korea?

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And that shows my naivete right there, because they said, well, I'm sorry, but Korea is in East Asia, but not Southeast Asia. And we only are devoted to Southeast Asia.

[Assistant] Well, Cambodia.

[User] So that was a big education in geography.

[Assistant] There you go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that shows my naivete right there, because they said, well, I'm sorry, but Korea is in East Asia, but not Southeast Asia. And we only are devoted to Southeast Asia.

[Assistant] Well, Cambodia.

[User] So that was a big education in geography.

[Assistant] There you go.

[User] And you know, that the world, at least as far as humans were concerned in terms of studies, was divided up into regions and that didn't communicate. So they were of no help. So we went to the library and looked up Korea, and there were a couple of books on the Korean War. That was it. This is, this is an Ivy League library in 1968. And there was nothing.

[Assistant] Nothing about Korea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was a big education in geography.

[Assistant] There you go.

[User] And you know, that the world, at least as far as humans were concerned in terms of studies, was divided up into regions and that didn't communicate. So they were of no help. So we went to the library and looked up Korea, and there were a couple of books on the Korean War. That was it. This is, this is an Ivy League library in 1968. And there was nothing.

[Assistant] Nothing about Korea.

[User] Nothing. Nothing about the people, nothing about the culture, nothing about the language, nothing about anything other than the Korean War.

[Assistant] The war. And the United States involvement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing. Nothing about the people, nothing about the culture, nothing about the language, nothing about anything other than the Korean War.

[Assistant] The war. And the United States involvement?

[User] And the United States involvement. So it was only military discussion. And so we could not educate ourselves as to whether or not we wanted to go to Korea because we couldn't learn anything about Korea. On the other hand, it was like, well, why not?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know, why not? So we said, yes, we'll go. And we spent the summer in Ithaca. Maybe a month into the fall. And then we. By this point, the Peace Corps was sort of in loco parentis. In other words, they told us you need to be in Los Angeles on this flight at this time, and then you need to be going with your group of other trainees to Hilo, Hawaii, for this period of time. And then you will be placed in country at this period of time.

[Assistant] So somewhere around here you have told your, your parents and your brother that you and your husband, David, had applied to the Peace Corps. What was their response?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the United States involvement. So it was only military discussion. And so we could not educate ourselves as to whether or not we wanted to go to Korea because we couldn't learn anything about Korea. On the other hand, it was like, well, why not?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know, why not? So we said, yes, we'll go. And we spent the summer in Ithaca. Maybe a month into the fall. And then we. By this point, the Peace Corps was sort of in loco parentis. In other words, they told us you need to be in Los Angeles on this flight at this time, and then you need to be going with your group of other trainees to Hilo, Hawaii, for this period of time. And then you will be placed in country at this period of time.

[Assistant] So somewhere around here you have told your, your parents and your brother that you and your husband, David, had applied to the Peace Corps. What was their response?

[User] I have no recollection at all.

[Assistant] Because you and, you are totally deviating from their program and what all their assumptions about what your, the trajectory of your life would be like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I have, I have no recollection, so it must not have been either strongly favorable or strongly negative. My brother is a very scientifically minded person and very practical. And I think his reaction probably would have been, if that's what you want to do, go ahead and do it. My parents, I don't remember, and I'm not sure at that point that I was even listening.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I probably was not listening because I think I had stopped listening a long time earlier.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Did you, um, did, there was some sort of going away party for you before you left to go to Hawaii?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Did you, um, did, there was some sort of going away party for you before you left to go to Hawaii?

[User] I don't, I don't think so. I just remember feeling I think that my parental family was, uh, I'm tempted to say toast, but that sounds much too harsh. That I had moved beyond that.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And that we had made friends, David and I had made friends in Ithaca, a couple that I had mentioned to you, the Darling. The Darlings, Ruth and Doug Darling.

[Assistant] Oh, these are more or less your parents age, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't, I don't think so. I just remember feeling I think that my parental family was, uh, I'm tempted to say toast, but that sounds much too harsh. That I had moved beyond that.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And that we had made friends, David and I had made friends in Ithaca, a couple that I had mentioned to you, the Darling. The Darlings, Ruth and Doug Darling.

[Assistant] Oh, these are more or less your parents age, right?

[User] They were our parents’ age.

[Assistant] But thinking in a different way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that we had made friends, David and I had made friends in Ithaca, a couple that I had mentioned to you, the Darling. The Darlings, Ruth and Doug Darling.

[Assistant] Oh, these are more or less your parents age, right?

[User] They were our parents’ age.

[Assistant] But thinking in a different way.

[User]
Very, very different thinking, especially Ruth, who was the dean of students at the time at Cornell. And she became, I think, my mother surrogate model. And even before we went into the Peace Corps, because David was supporting himself through graduate school by working in the Dean of Students office. So he worked with her every day and we got to know them quite well. And I just admired her tremendously. So, and she was another example of a woman who had not been, if you will, deviant, but had nevertheless shaped a career for herself that she was very happy with and that she was very good at.

So she was a role model and a very encouraging role model. Uh, I don't remember any particular hoopla about leaving. It was more like we were on an adventure that we had no way of imagining beyond showing up at the appointed places at the appointed times.

[Assistant] That's right. That's right. Yes, exactly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were our parents’ age.

[Assistant] But thinking in a different way.

[User]
Very, very different thinking, especially Ruth, who was the dean of students at the time at Cornell. And she became, I think, my mother surrogate model. And even before we went into the Peace Corps, because David was supporting himself through graduate school by working in the Dean of Students office. So he worked with her every day and we got to know them quite well. And I just admired her tremendously. So, and she was another example of a woman who had not been, if you will, deviant, but had nevertheless shaped a career for herself that she was very happy with and that she was very good at.

So she was a role model and a very encouraging role model. Uh, I don't remember any particular hoopla about leaving. It was more like we were on an adventure that we had no way of imagining beyond showing up at the appointed places at the appointed times.

[Assistant] That's right. That's right. Yes, exactly.

[User] Which was okay. We had signed up for that.

[Assistant] So that's part of it, I think, you let go of all expectations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Very, very different thinking, especially Ruth, who was the dean of students at the time at Cornell. And she became, I think, my mother surrogate model. And even before we went into the Peace Corps, because David was supporting himself through graduate school by working in the Dean of Students office. So he worked with her every day and we got to know them quite well. And I just admired her tremendously. So, and she was another example of a woman who had not been, if you will, deviant, but had nevertheless shaped a career for herself that she was very happy with and that she was very good at.

So she was a role model and a very encouraging role model. Uh, I don't remember any particular hoopla about leaving. It was more like we were on an adventure that we had no way of imagining beyond showing up at the appointed places at the appointed times.

[Assistant] That's right. That's right. Yes, exactly.

[User] Which was okay. We had signed up for that.

[Assistant] So that's part of it, I think, you let go of all expectations.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So you, you arrived in, you all got your training group gathered in, was it San Francisco did you say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which was okay. We had signed up for that.

[Assistant] So that's part of it, I think, you let go of all expectations.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So you, you arrived in, you all got your training group gathered in, was it San Francisco did you say?

[User] The first meeting point was Los Angeles.

[Assistant] Los Angeles. And that would have been in 1968. Did you say October?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The first meeting point was Los Angeles.

[Assistant] Los Angeles. And that would have been in 1968. Did you say October?

[User] '68 October. Right. It was, it was the, uh. You know, we were instructed very specifically to show up in Los Angeles and that we would be departing from Los Angeles as a group. What to bring, what not to bring.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We had had at that point already many shots. We had quite a number.

[Assistant] Oh, you had to get that on your own before training, those shots?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] '68 October. Right. It was, it was the, uh. You know, we were instructed very specifically to show up in Los Angeles and that we would be departing from Los Angeles as a group. What to bring, what not to bring.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We had had at that point already many shots. We had quite a number.

[Assistant] Oh, you had to get that on your own before training, those shots?

[User] As I remember a lot of them, yes. I think we may have had additional shots, but we came inoculated. And so then we just, I think there were about 80 of us in this group of seven, K-7 and 8. Got on the plane in L.A., got off in Hawaii.

[Assistant] You just said something interesting. This was group seven and eight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had had at that point already many shots. We had quite a number.

[Assistant] Oh, you had to get that on your own before training, those shots?

[User] As I remember a lot of them, yes. I think we may have had additional shots, but we came inoculated. And so then we just, I think there were about 80 of us in this group of seven, K-7 and 8. Got on the plane in L.A., got off in Hawaii.

[Assistant] You just said something interesting. This was group seven and eight.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What was the difference between seven and eight? It sounds like two groups together with different objectives once they got to Korea maybe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As lawyers. Yes. I don't know if there were, uh, there was a comparable program with doctors or not, but it was directed not at the college level, but at a, a professional or business level.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And that was the difference between the two groups.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We were trained the same. The two groups were trained the same up until the last maybe, uh, three weeks or a month of the training program.

[Assistant] And then you went sort of into two different paths. But let's, we're still in Los Angeles.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was the difference between the two groups.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We were trained the same. The two groups were trained the same up until the last maybe, uh, three weeks or a month of the training program.

[Assistant] And then you went sort of into two different paths. But let's, we're still in Los Angeles.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How long are you in, how long were you in Los Angeles before you flew to Hawaii?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How long are you in, how long were you in Los Angeles before you flew to Hawaii?

[User] I don't know. Probably just an overnight or a day. I mean, we didn't do anything in Los Angeles. It was just to meet each other. It was a jumping off point.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] It was where we aggregated.

[Assistant] Right. And then you off you went. So there are, there are about 80 of you all together and, and so you've already described the difference between seven and eight. Were the Korea seven people pretty much like you and David, quite recently out of college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. Probably just an overnight or a day. I mean, we didn't do anything in Los Angeles. It was just to meet each other. It was a jumping off point.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] It was where we aggregated.

[Assistant] Right. And then you off you went. So there are, there are about 80 of you all together and, and so you've already described the difference between seven and eight. Were the Korea seven people pretty much like you and David, quite recently out of college?

[User] Yes. Yes. Most of us were fairly recently out of college. Maybe, maybe some people were one or two years out of college.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And were there other married couples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Most of us were fairly recently out of college. Maybe, maybe some people were one or two years out of college.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And were there other married couples?

[User] Yes, there were other married couples. Our program had for some reason, and I'll explain the reason because I think I understand it, a higher number of married couples than, than maybe most programs would have had.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Or that programs prior to our program had. And this was a highly self-selected group. I mean, that we had self-selected ourselves individually in making the decision to go to Korea, to go to Korea at this time. Um. Or really to be in the Peace Corps at this time. The number of couples that thought the way David and I thought was very high.

[Assistant] Meaning your views about the war, Vietnam War?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Views about the Vietnam War, views about susceptibility to the draft, views about wanting to make an affirmative contribution.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] While also opposing, opposing the war. If you think of war as a militaristic engagement with the world, that we were opposed to a military engagement and wanted to have an affirmative engagement.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so the group was highly self-selected. And I've made, you know, we made many friends among, mostly among the couples, because we just socialized more easily among couples.

[Assistant] And were you, um, staying in dorm rooms? Where were you in Hawaii?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so the group was highly self-selected. And I've made, you know, we made many friends among, mostly among the couples, because we just socialized more easily among couples.

[Assistant] And were you, um, staying in dorm rooms? Where were you in Hawaii?

[User] When we got to Hawaii, we were taken to, um, well, we flew in on a smaller plane eventually. I think we, I think we originally landed in Honolulu and then were taken in smaller prop planes because we're still talking about propeller airplanes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] To Hilo, that had a small airport. And then we were bussed up to, uh, a little outside of Hilo, a small town, small city, to a wooden, long wooden building, white clapboard building that had been once upon a time a hospital. And I don't remember for whom. I don't remember if it was for like people with TB or leprosy or something. But it had been a hospital and was no longer being used as a hospital. And so it had many, many rooms. It was set up with large common areas, but also then rooms which would have been patient rooms. And so we were assigned, married couples were assigned to a room in this building. And we ate in the common areas and had classes in the common areas. And did everything in that building, all of our training. [tape break]

[Assistant] So this is Phyllis Noble interviewing Margaret Eger Taylor. We're at the beginning of tape two. We're talking about the training program which was taking place in Hilo, Hawaii. And you were describing your living arrangements. You were in a big building, white clapboard, where you lived and you had your meals and your classes there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When we got to Hawaii, we were taken to, um, well, we flew in on a smaller plane eventually. I think we, I think we originally landed in Honolulu and then were taken in smaller prop planes because we're still talking about propeller airplanes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] To Hilo, that had a small airport. And then we were bussed up to, uh, a little outside of Hilo, a small town, small city, to a wooden, long wooden building, white clapboard building that had been once upon a time a hospital. And I don't remember for whom. I don't remember if it was for like people with TB or leprosy or something. But it had been a hospital and was no longer being used as a hospital. And so it had many, many rooms. It was set up with large common areas, but also then rooms which would have been patient rooms. And so we were assigned, married couples were assigned to a room in this building. And we ate in the common areas and had classes in the common areas. And did everything in that building, all of our training. [tape break]

[Assistant] So this is Phyllis Noble interviewing Margaret Eger Taylor. We're at the beginning of tape two. We're talking about the training program which was taking place in Hilo, Hawaii. And you were describing your living arrangements. You were in a big building, white clapboard, where you lived and you had your meals and your classes there.

[User] Right. And we had classes, uh, really all day. We had, um, I think breakfast was at 8:00, and then we had classes from approximately 9:00 to 12:00. We had a break for lunch and I think resumed again at 2:00 and had classes till 5:00. And then we had a break until 7:00, and then we had classes from 7:00 to 10:00.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Hilo, that had a small airport. And then we were bussed up to, uh, a little outside of Hilo, a small town, small city, to a wooden, long wooden building, white clapboard building that had been once upon a time a hospital. And I don't remember for whom. I don't remember if it was for like people with TB or leprosy or something. But it had been a hospital and was no longer being used as a hospital. And so it had many, many rooms. It was set up with large common areas, but also then rooms which would have been patient rooms. And so we were assigned, married couples were assigned to a room in this building. And we ate in the common areas and had classes in the common areas. And did everything in that building, all of our training. [tape break]

[Assistant] So this is Phyllis Noble interviewing Margaret Eger Taylor. We're at the beginning of tape two. We're talking about the training program which was taking place in Hilo, Hawaii. And you were describing your living arrangements. You were in a big building, white clapboard, where you lived and you had your meals and your classes there.

[User] Right. And we had classes, uh, really all day. We had, um, I think breakfast was at 8:00, and then we had classes from approximately 9:00 to 12:00. We had a break for lunch and I think resumed again at 2:00 and had classes till 5:00. And then we had a break until 7:00, and then we had classes from 7:00 to 10:00.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] Long day, long day. And it was, as I recall, six days a week.

[Assistant] Wow. And what were these classes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And we had classes, uh, really all day. We had, um, I think breakfast was at 8:00, and then we had classes from approximately 9:00 to 12:00. We had a break for lunch and I think resumed again at 2:00 and had classes till 5:00. And then we had a break until 7:00, and then we had classes from 7:00 to 10:00.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] Long day, long day. And it was, as I recall, six days a week.

[Assistant] Wow. And what were these classes?

[User] There were classes of Korean language instruction.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. How many hours a day was language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Long day, long day. And it was, as I recall, six days a week.

[Assistant] Wow. And what were these classes?

[User] There were classes of Korean language instruction.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. How many hours a day was language?

[User] It was at least three and possibly more.

[Assistant] Were you in small groups?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the Peace Corps made use of that environment by taking us on trips. And they must have been either a Saturday afternoon or Sundays. But we, they would take us to places that we would not have been able to get to by ourselves. We were taking busses to, uh, the ocean at different points along the coast, to very, very, very deep valleys that cut through the island and would have precipitous drops of hundreds of feet onto the beach. We were at one point given a very small amount of money for a three day immersion, which I think was an effort to see how we coped with being on our own, comparable to the three days that I had in Rome.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we were sent out. The married couples went as couples.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] The individuals went as individuals. But we were taken and dropped off somewhere on the island. I mean, just dropped off, like, hello, this is where you are and don't come back until Sunday night. This was Friday.

[Assistant] I would think it'd be very nice to have a spousal one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we were sent out. The married couples went as couples.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] The individuals went as individuals. But we were taken and dropped off somewhere on the island. I mean, just dropped off, like, hello, this is where you are and don't come back until Sunday night. This was Friday.

[Assistant] I would think it'd be very nice to have a spousal one.

[User] Yeah, it was.

[Assistant] Instead of being totally alone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The individuals went as individuals. But we were taken and dropped off somewhere on the island. I mean, just dropped off, like, hello, this is where you are and don't come back until Sunday night. This was Friday.

[Assistant] I would think it'd be very nice to have a spousal one.

[User] Yeah, it was.

[Assistant] Instead of being totally alone.

[User] Yeah. So, um.

[Assistant] And were there certain things you had to accomplish during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So, um.

[Assistant] And were there certain things you had to accomplish during that time?

[User] No, not really. I mean, you just had to figure out how to survive and get back on, back where you belonged on Sunday night.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] I don't even know if we had a map. If we did, it was a very rudimentary map.

[Assistant] But by now you had, now you weren't studying Hawaiian language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. I mean, you just had to figure out how to survive and get back on, back where you belonged on Sunday night.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] I don't even know if we had a map. If we did, it was a very rudimentary map.

[Assistant] But by now you had, now you weren't studying Hawaiian language.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You could, you could communicate in English with most of the people, right? Or maybe not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't even know if we had a map. If we did, it was a very rudimentary map.

[Assistant] But by now you had, now you weren't studying Hawaiian language.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You could, you could communicate in English with most of the people, right? Or maybe not.

[User] Not really. Not really. And it was a very unpopulated island at that time. It was significantly rural. Cars were rare and few and far between. There were little sort of farmsteads in the middle of a field, a sugar field or a cane field or, or. Certainly not an urban center until you got up to the north side of the island, which was at that point being developed.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Were there dangers, were there snakes and scorpions and things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You could, you could communicate in English with most of the people, right? Or maybe not.

[User] Not really. Not really. And it was a very unpopulated island at that time. It was significantly rural. Cars were rare and few and far between. There were little sort of farmsteads in the middle of a field, a sugar field or a cane field or, or. Certainly not an urban center until you got up to the north side of the island, which was at that point being developed.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Were there dangers, were there snakes and scorpions and things?

[User] You know, I don't remember.

[Assistant] Well, you would, I would imagine you would if that's what you were most terrified about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. Not really. And it was a very unpopulated island at that time. It was significantly rural. Cars were rare and few and far between. There were little sort of farmsteads in the middle of a field, a sugar field or a cane field or, or. Certainly not an urban center until you got up to the north side of the island, which was at that point being developed.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Were there dangers, were there snakes and scorpions and things?

[User] You know, I don't remember.

[Assistant] Well, you would, I would imagine you would if that's what you were most terrified about.

[User] Yeah. I think some people encountered animals like raccoons and dogs and so on. But.

[Assistant] Well, so what did you have to, what did you wind up having to do to get back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I don't remember.

[Assistant] Well, you would, I would imagine you would if that's what you were most terrified about.

[User] Yeah. I think some people encountered animals like raccoons and dogs and so on. But.

[Assistant] Well, so what did you have to, what did you wind up having to do to get back?

[User] Well, it's a big island and we ended up having to hitchhike because there was no other transportation.

[Assistant] So you had to find a road?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's a big island and we ended up having to hitchhike because there was no other transportation.

[Assistant] So you had to find a road?

[User] Yeah, we were dropped off on a road, but the roads were, you know, small, maximum two lane roads.

[Assistant] Dirt roads?

[User] Some were dirt. I think mostly we tried to stay on at least a two lane road that belted the island. Because the island in the middle is a volcano so there isn't a lot of cross traffic.

[Assistant] Ah. Yeah. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we hitchhiked, and we spent a lot of time standing on the roadside watching people drive by who were not interested in picking us up. And we got finally a ride, I remember. And it was a single guy, maybe middle aged, who, whose, who we had trouble communicating with because his English and our Hawaiian did not meet in the middle. But he seemed enthusiastic, and we were tired of being in the same place for several hours. And it turned out that he lived by himself and I think he was into pornography.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] So once we realized that, uh, we excused ourselves and, you know, made it back to the main road. But that was an interesting lesson because I had no experience with that side of life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] None. I mean, I think I almost didn't even recognize what it was. I just knew that it wasn't something I wanted to find anything more out about. And that seemed to be this gentleman's agenda. So we, we.

[Assistant] I can only imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So once we realized that, uh, we excused ourselves and, you know, made it back to the main road. But that was an interesting lesson because I had no experience with that side of life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] None. I mean, I think I almost didn't even recognize what it was. I just knew that it wasn't something I wanted to find anything more out about. And that seemed to be this gentleman's agenda. So we, we.

[Assistant] I can only imagine.

[User] Understood it was time to leave.

[Assistant] I could only imagine a woman alone hitchhiking in that situation and finding myself in such a place. Yikes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Understood it was time to leave.

[Assistant] I could only imagine a woman alone hitchhiking in that situation and finding myself in such a place. Yikes.

[User] I don't know what the women did. Right. Then we, we made it to the top of the island, the north side. If you think of the island as a clock, Hilo was at about, I'm guessing, between 3:00 and 4:00. The north side of the island being around midnight.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah, 12:00. Um, it was a resort. That area had been developed as a resort. And so there were these expensive hotels.

[Assistant] Which you couldn't afford, which you probably were on a very tight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think we had $10 between us for everything.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
And the first night I know we slept outside all of the nights because we didn't have, there was nowhere to stay really. And we had no money. We couldn't afford anything. And I remember, I think it was by Sunday morning we ended up on the north side, or maybe Saturday morning. But, you know, we were hungry, we were tired, we slept outside, and we were walking along the beach and became aware of these hotels. And we could see from the beach where we were walking that people were dining outside and well dressed and it looked quite elegant and some beautiful brunch was being served. We were so hungry. We were so hungry.

And I don't think I appreciated that we probably looked pretty ratty at that point because I was still thinking of myself as a, as a, as a white, middle class, educated person. And apparently we did not look the part. And we attracted the attention of a waiter because we thought, well, we might as well spend our money and at least have a tremendous brunch. So we attracted the attention of a waiter who came over, or a manager who came over and we said, you know, we've got $10 and we'd love some brunch. And he said, no, can't do it. We can't serve you. And we said, well, why not? We've got the money. We're here. And he said, no, we can't serve you. And I did not understand at the time enough about social class to realize that we presented ourselves as being of an unacceptable social class.

[Assistant] Aha.

[User] We were, we were beach bums. And I didn't think of myself as a beach bum. So when we were treated as beach bums, I was dumbfounded, just dumbfounded.

[Assistant] This must be, you must have been feeling what African Americans were feeling when they were denied a Coca Cola at the lunch counter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If you haven't entered through the front door, you can be denied service.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it doesn't matter if you're hungry and it doesn't matter if you have money.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They just won't engage with you. So we continued, um, and I think we spent another. It must have been a Saturday. I think we spent another night, um, I know we spent another night out. I remember sleeping on a picnic table because there were things on the ground. I'm not sure what, but the better place to sleep seemed to be a couple of feet off the ground. It was chilly. It was damp. We didn't have any blankets or clothing other than what we had on our backs.

[Assistant] Oh, no sleeping bags or air mattress?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it doesn't matter if you're hungry and it doesn't matter if you have money.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They just won't engage with you. So we continued, um, and I think we spent another. It must have been a Saturday. I think we spent another night, um, I know we spent another night out. I remember sleeping on a picnic table because there were things on the ground. I'm not sure what, but the better place to sleep seemed to be a couple of feet off the ground. It was chilly. It was damp. We didn't have any blankets or clothing other than what we had on our backs.

[Assistant] Oh, no sleeping bags or air mattress?

[User] Nothing. No, no, no, no. Nothing. And so we made it back, I guess, late afternoon on Sunday, hitchhiking some more. Many people had much more exciting adventures than we did. Ours was relatively tame.

[Assistant] But that must have been really an awakening experience to get back together with your peers and hear, listen to each other's stories.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They just won't engage with you. So we continued, um, and I think we spent another. It must have been a Saturday. I think we spent another night, um, I know we spent another night out. I remember sleeping on a picnic table because there were things on the ground. I'm not sure what, but the better place to sleep seemed to be a couple of feet off the ground. It was chilly. It was damp. We didn't have any blankets or clothing other than what we had on our backs.

[Assistant] Oh, no sleeping bags or air mattress?

[User] Nothing. No, no, no, no. Nothing. And so we made it back, I guess, late afternoon on Sunday, hitchhiking some more. Many people had much more exciting adventures than we did. Ours was relatively tame.

[Assistant] But that must have been really an awakening experience to get back together with your peers and hear, listen to each other's stories.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And why do you think they did that? Why, why? What was the purpose of that three day exercise in survival?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing. No, no, no, no. Nothing. And so we made it back, I guess, late afternoon on Sunday, hitchhiking some more. Many people had much more exciting adventures than we did. Ours was relatively tame.

[Assistant] But that must have been really an awakening experience to get back together with your peers and hear, listen to each other's stories.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And why do you think they did that? Why, why? What was the purpose of that three day exercise in survival?

[User] I think it was to see how we would cope in a completely uncharted environment with minimal amount of money. It was, you know, from the point of view of a psychologist now, it was functionally a projective test. In other words, if you dump these people into a blank environment where they do not have the resources that they are used to depending upon and are left to their own devices, which means that they have their minds and their bodies and the clothes on their back. How will they fare? Will they be able to tolerate it? It wasn't so much a test of, I think, whether we had a wonderful experience or not. It was, can you take this? Maybe that was it. Can you stomach it?

[Assistant] Yes. Are you strong enough to go through this challenge? Were, was there the threat of deselection over your heads?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And why do you think they did that? Why, why? What was the purpose of that three day exercise in survival?

[User] I think it was to see how we would cope in a completely uncharted environment with minimal amount of money. It was, you know, from the point of view of a psychologist now, it was functionally a projective test. In other words, if you dump these people into a blank environment where they do not have the resources that they are used to depending upon and are left to their own devices, which means that they have their minds and their bodies and the clothes on their back. How will they fare? Will they be able to tolerate it? It wasn't so much a test of, I think, whether we had a wonderful experience or not. It was, can you take this? Maybe that was it. Can you stomach it?

[Assistant] Yes. Are you strong enough to go through this challenge? Were, was there the threat of deselection over your heads?

[User] Yes, that was always there.

[Assistant] Yeah. So maybe this was the ultimate deciding factor in who would go on to Korea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So all we knew was that everything we did was being evaluated.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Or everything we didn't do was being evaluated. And that we just were cognizant that there was deselection. And in fact, I remember one gentleman was deselected at the very end and the volunteers really liked him. He, I remember he was Polish and.

[Assistant] Polish American?

[User] Polish American. He was, um, he was gregarious. He was a musician. He was, he was a little bit on the loud side, but he was great fun. And all the volunteers liked him. He was deselected and it came as a disappointment and a blow to the rest of us because we liked him very much.

[Assistant] Did you get to talk to him or did he just disappear?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or everything we didn't do was being evaluated. And that we just were cognizant that there was deselection. And in fact, I remember one gentleman was deselected at the very end and the volunteers really liked him. He, I remember he was Polish and.

[Assistant] Polish American?

[User] Polish American. He was, um, he was gregarious. He was a musician. He was, he was a little bit on the loud side, but he was great fun. And all the volunteers liked him. He was deselected and it came as a disappointment and a blow to the rest of us because we liked him very much.

[Assistant] Did you get to talk to him or did he just disappear?

[User] They gave him very short notice, functionally he disappeared.

[Assistant] Did he have any inkling about why?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And what I realized later, once we were in Korea, is that parts of his personality would have been just fine in Korea. But the, the way he was, he was a little, a little bit. He would have been a bull in a china shop, not because he was a bull in a china shop, but because the, of a mismatch between his physical and social gregariousness.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the Korean culture, which was a very, is a very refined, um, conservative, um, traditional Confucian hierarchical culture. And that, I think, was what my hypothesis is, and it's only a hypothesis, is that the Korean staff understood that that he would be perhaps not, not suitable for adaptation to becoming Korean.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] I mean, that to succeed in Korea, you sort of had to at least be able to adopt enough of Korean mannerisms and behavior that you could not offend people.

[Assistant] Exactly. Exactly right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, that to succeed in Korea, you sort of had to at least be able to adopt enough of Korean mannerisms and behavior that you could not offend people.

[Assistant] Exactly. Exactly right.

[User] And I think probably just his, his, his native humanness as a person and maybe from his culture was, it was too loud.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] His, his body language was too gregarious.

[Assistant] Well, now I hope that he was, that such a great guy would have been given another chance to train for a different program in a different culture where loud, gregarious behavior would be okay and not offensive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think probably just his, his, his native humanness as a person and maybe from his culture was, it was too loud.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] His, his body language was too gregarious.

[Assistant] Well, now I hope that he was, that such a great guy would have been given another chance to train for a different program in a different culture where loud, gregarious behavior would be okay and not offensive.

[User] Right. And that may have happened.

[Assistant] I hope so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His, his body language was too gregarious.

[Assistant] Well, now I hope that he was, that such a great guy would have been given another chance to train for a different program in a different culture where loud, gregarious behavior would be okay and not offensive.

[User] Right. And that may have happened.

[Assistant] I hope so.

[User] Yeah. We were not allowed to, I mean, it was, it wasn't something we were informed about to process but.

[Assistant] Were you and David pretty confident, confident that you were going to be accepted or was it, were you worried about deselection?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. We were not allowed to, I mean, it was, it wasn't something we were informed about to process but.

[Assistant] Were you and David pretty confident, confident that you were going to be accepted or was it, were you worried about deselection?

[User] There was a worry I think in everyone's mind because it was a possibility. I don't think I took it personally. I don't think I thought that it was likely because I understood that we had many of the same mannerisms that with refinement, considerable refinement, would make us acceptable.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] That we could, that we could behave appropriately. And to some extent I was wrong, but that's further down into the story.

[Assistant] Did you have psychologists coming to interview you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a worry I think in everyone's mind because it was a possibility. I don't think I took it personally. I don't think I thought that it was likely because I understood that we had many of the same mannerisms that with refinement, considerable refinement, would make us acceptable.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] That we could, that we could behave appropriately. And to some extent I was wrong, but that's further down into the story.

[Assistant] Did you have psychologists coming to interview you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you have personal, individual interviews with psychologists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That we could, that we could behave appropriately. And to some extent I was wrong, but that's further down into the story.

[Assistant] Did you have psychologists coming to interview you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you have personal, individual interviews with psychologists?

[User] Yes. And, uh, this is a pivotal point in, I think it was the point where I thought perhaps I would be deselected, in which case we would both be deselected. We had an interview, I think more than one actually, but I remember one in particular with the psychologist.

[Assistant] You by yourself or you and David together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And, uh, this is a pivotal point in, I think it was the point where I thought perhaps I would be deselected, in which case we would both be deselected. We had an interview, I think more than one actually, but I remember one in particular with the psychologist.

[Assistant] You by yourself or you and David together?

[User] Separately.

[Assistant] Separately.

[User] Individually. And the question was. And here's this guy that we don't know, that everybody thinks is a little, I think people were very ambivalent about him.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. The psychologist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he seemed to operate on a set of principles that were not available to us. And we didn't know what his expectations were or what he was looking for. It was, he seemed opaque.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I remember he was sitting in a chair, and I came in and sat down and he said, well, tell me about yourself. That's all he said. No guidance.

[Assistant] Where do you begin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His last name was Exner, and he ended up writing a seminal textbook on the Rorschach. He had developed his own scoring method for scoring the responses on the Rorschach. And the Rorschach is inkblots.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And it's an entirely projective test. In other words, somebody looks at the blot and then says what comes to mind. And it's all scored very meticulously. That was what he was doing. He was writing that system. He was creating his own system of scoring the inkblots. And that was exactly, then I understood. Once I understood that that was his book and it was the same guy, because he came at one point and talked at the University of Michigan about his scoring system. And I went up to him, and because somehow I put two and two together, and I thought this must be the same guy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I said, were you ever in, were you ever a psychologist for a Peace Corps training program in Hawaii? And he said yes. He did not want to, he stopped the conversation. I mean, he was not interested. I thought maybe he'd say, oh, well, you know, what did you do and how did it go and blah blah blah?

[Assistant] And how fascinating it was and all he learned from it. No?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I said, were you ever in, were you ever a psychologist for a Peace Corps training program in Hawaii? And he said yes. He did not want to, he stopped the conversation. I mean, he was not interested. I thought maybe he'd say, oh, well, you know, what did you do and how did it go and blah blah blah?

[Assistant] And how fascinating it was and all he learned from it. No?

[User] No. He was absolutely not interested in pursuing that line of conversation. So I thought, well, that's interesting. He's confirmed that it's the same person.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So my question is answered and this is not a person that I'm comfortable with. I wasn't then. I'm not now. So, yes, that was the psychology question.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I'm thinking about this. I'm also wondering whether in training you were given teacher training? You had cultural studies, language studies. But what about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. He was absolutely not interested in pursuing that line of conversation. So I thought, well, that's interesting. He's confirmed that it's the same person.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So my question is answered and this is not a person that I'm comfortable with. I wasn't then. I'm not now. So, yes, that was the psychology question.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I'm thinking about this. I'm also wondering whether in training you were given teacher training? You had cultural studies, language studies. But what about?

[User] Yes, we were.

[Assistant] How to, how to teach?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So my question is answered and this is not a person that I'm comfortable with. I wasn't then. I'm not now. So, yes, that was the psychology question.

[Assistant] Yeah. And I'm thinking about this. I'm also wondering whether in training you were given teacher training? You had cultural studies, language studies. But what about?

[User] Yes, we were.

[Assistant] How to, how to teach?

[User] Yes, we were. And that was the TESL part, which is to learn how to teach, period. And then I guess learn how to teach a foreign language.

[Assistant] Again, TESL is Teaching English as a Second Language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we were.

[Assistant] How to, how to teach?

[User] Yes, we were. And that was the TESL part, which is to learn how to teach, period. And then I guess learn how to teach a foreign language.

[Assistant] Again, TESL is Teaching English as a Second Language.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It used to be TEFL, T-E-F-L, Teaching English as a Foreign Language. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we were. And that was the TESL part, which is to learn how to teach, period. And then I guess learn how to teach a foreign language.

[Assistant] Again, TESL is Teaching English as a Second Language.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It used to be TEFL, T-E-F-L, Teaching English as a Foreign Language. Yeah.

[User] Um. I. Because it, because we were teaching English conversation. That was really our function. Um. That as an English major, it didn't seem to me very hard to teach language. I had had a lot of education in that, including lots of education and diagraming sentences and parts of speech and gerunds and adjectives and verbs. And so I was quite at home with that. I had not taught, but I don't remember that being an issue. It obviously didn't make a big impression on me. So it must have been a compatible enough experience that it didn't really register.

[Assistant] On the whole, did you think that your training was done well, that the information was conveyed in in a good way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It used to be TEFL, T-E-F-L, Teaching English as a Foreign Language. Yeah.

[User] Um. I. Because it, because we were teaching English conversation. That was really our function. Um. That as an English major, it didn't seem to me very hard to teach language. I had had a lot of education in that, including lots of education and diagraming sentences and parts of speech and gerunds and adjectives and verbs. And so I was quite at home with that. I had not taught, but I don't remember that being an issue. It obviously didn't make a big impression on me. So it must have been a compatible enough experience that it didn't really register.

[Assistant] On the whole, did you think that your training was done well, that the information was conveyed in in a good way?

[User] I think so. Uh, the days were long. We got, at least I did, got tired. I had no ear for picking up a language orally, and so I struggled whereas other people just, who are good at mimicry or music or had some auditory recall did much better.

[Assistant] So their method of teaching Korean was entirely oral?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. I. Because it, because we were teaching English conversation. That was really our function. Um. That as an English major, it didn't seem to me very hard to teach language. I had had a lot of education in that, including lots of education and diagraming sentences and parts of speech and gerunds and adjectives and verbs. And so I was quite at home with that. I had not taught, but I don't remember that being an issue. It obviously didn't make a big impression on me. So it must have been a compatible enough experience that it didn't really register.

[Assistant] On the whole, did you think that your training was done well, that the information was conveyed in in a good way?

[User] I think so. Uh, the days were long. We got, at least I did, got tired. I had no ear for picking up a language orally, and so I struggled whereas other people just, who are good at mimicry or music or had some auditory recall did much better.

[Assistant] So their method of teaching Korean was entirely oral?

[User] It was.

[Assistant] You didn't have a textbook to talk about grammar?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything was immersion. The whole, the whole, the whole training program was immersion.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which is we're going to put you in it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And see how you do. And the way to learn a language is that you are spoken to in Korean and, and we'll repeat it for you, but you've got to figure it out.

[Assistant] Of course, we now know that people learn languages in many different ways. If you're a visual learner, you're going to need some visual, visual cues.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which is we're going to put you in it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And see how you do. And the way to learn a language is that you are spoken to in Korean and, and we'll repeat it for you, but you've got to figure it out.

[Assistant] Of course, we now know that people learn languages in many different ways. If you're a visual learner, you're going to need some visual, visual cues.

[User] And we did have to learn the alphabet.

[Assistant] The alphabet, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And see how you do. And the way to learn a language is that you are spoken to in Korean and, and we'll repeat it for you, but you've got to figure it out.

[Assistant] Of course, we now know that people learn languages in many different ways. If you're a visual learner, you're going to need some visual, visual cues.

[User] And we did have to learn the alphabet.

[Assistant] The alphabet, yeah.

[User] And we had to learn how to read basic, basic words.

[Assistant] Yes. Very difficult.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we did have to learn the alphabet.

[Assistant] The alphabet, yeah.

[User] And we had to learn how to read basic, basic words.

[Assistant] Yes. Very difficult.

[User] Yeah. And it's a completely foreign alphabet, but it's a wonderful alphabet. But that's a whole different story.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you, um, did you feel that you were given all the training you needed? Was the training adequate for what you then were faced with once you got to Korea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we had to learn how to read basic, basic words.

[Assistant] Yes. Very difficult.

[User] Yeah. And it's a completely foreign alphabet, but it's a wonderful alphabet. But that's a whole different story.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you, um, did you feel that you were given all the training you needed? Was the training adequate for what you then were faced with once you got to Korea?

[User] The answer is yes. Uh. I don't think. I don't think that there would ever be fully adequate training because fully adequate training would be that you would end up being Korean.

[Assistant] Oh yeah, okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The answer is yes. Uh. I don't think. I don't think that there would ever be fully adequate training because fully adequate training would be that you would end up being Korean.

[Assistant] Oh yeah, okay.

[User] And obviously that was not possible. So at some point they had to say, you've got enough, you have enough under your belt here that, that you can survive.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then it's up to you while you're in Korea, you know, you keep learning.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And obviously that was not possible. So at some point they had to say, you've got enough, you have enough under your belt here that, that you can survive.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then it's up to you while you're in Korea, you know, you keep learning.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right.

[User] You keep learning.

[Assistant] So you're in Hawaii for? How long did the training last, two or three months?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then it's up to you while you're in Korea, you know, you keep learning.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's right.

[User] You keep learning.

[Assistant] So you're in Hawaii for? How long did the training last, two or three months?

[User] We were in Hilo, uh, October and November. And I think about part of December. And then we were taken to Honolulu. And in Honolulu the group was split. The seven and eights were split for the first time. And so I don't know exactly what the eights did, um, and I don't even remember exactly what we did.

[Assistant] It was practice teaching as part of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You keep learning.

[Assistant] So you're in Hawaii for? How long did the training last, two or three months?

[User] We were in Hilo, uh, October and November. And I think about part of December. And then we were taken to Honolulu. And in Honolulu the group was split. The seven and eights were split for the first time. And so I don't know exactly what the eights did, um, and I don't even remember exactly what we did.

[Assistant] It was practice teaching as part of that?

[User] You know, I'm, I'm blank on it. Um. I do remember that we spent a Christmas with a family that we didn't know who had just, you know, opened their house to us.

[Assistant] A Hawaiian family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were in Hilo, uh, October and November. And I think about part of December. And then we were taken to Honolulu. And in Honolulu the group was split. The seven and eights were split for the first time. And so I don't know exactly what the eights did, um, and I don't even remember exactly what we did.

[Assistant] It was practice teaching as part of that?

[User] You know, I'm, I'm blank on it. Um. I do remember that we spent a Christmas with a family that we didn't know who had just, you know, opened their house to us.

[Assistant] A Hawaiian family?

[User] Um, well, I mean, it was, it was Honolulu, but I think they were more Anglo than Hawaiian.

[Assistant] Uh huh. But not a Korean immigrant family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I'm, I'm blank on it. Um. I do remember that we spent a Christmas with a family that we didn't know who had just, you know, opened their house to us.

[Assistant] A Hawaiian family?

[User] Um, well, I mean, it was, it was Honolulu, but I think they were more Anglo than Hawaiian.

[Assistant] Uh huh. But not a Korean immigrant family?

[User] No, not a Korean immigrant family. I don't know why I'm drawing such a blank on that. But I am. Uh. It was an urban. Oh, maybe this was the part. It was an urban environment. So we were, we were learning how to get around in a large urban environment where maybe we didn't have. It wasn't a totally foreign culture, but it certainly wasn't a familiar culture.

[Assistant] Yeah. And then did training continue a bit in Korea, or did you have your big swearing in ceremony in Hawaii?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, well, I mean, it was, it was Honolulu, but I think they were more Anglo than Hawaiian.

[Assistant] Uh huh. But not a Korean immigrant family?

[User] No, not a Korean immigrant family. I don't know why I'm drawing such a blank on that. But I am. Uh. It was an urban. Oh, maybe this was the part. It was an urban environment. So we were, we were learning how to get around in a large urban environment where maybe we didn't have. It wasn't a totally foreign culture, but it certainly wasn't a familiar culture.

[Assistant] Yeah. And then did training continue a bit in Korea, or did you have your big swearing in ceremony in Hawaii?

[User] We had it in Hawaii. By that time, anybody that was being deselected had been deselected. So before shipping us off to Korea, we had the swearing in ceremony in Hawaii.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, you're writing it to your parents, to your brother maybe, from Hawaii?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not a Korean immigrant family. I don't know why I'm drawing such a blank on that. But I am. Uh. It was an urban. Oh, maybe this was the part. It was an urban environment. So we were, we were learning how to get around in a large urban environment where maybe we didn't have. It wasn't a totally foreign culture, but it certainly wasn't a familiar culture.

[Assistant] Yeah. And then did training continue a bit in Korea, or did you have your big swearing in ceremony in Hawaii?

[User] We had it in Hawaii. By that time, anybody that was being deselected had been deselected. So before shipping us off to Korea, we had the swearing in ceremony in Hawaii.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, you're writing it to your parents, to your brother maybe, from Hawaii?

[User] I don't particularly remember writing that much from Hawaii. I don't know. I don't know why.

[Assistant] Well, they were keeping you pretty busy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't particularly remember writing that much from Hawaii. I don't know. I don't know why.

[Assistant] Well, they were keeping you pretty busy.

[User] Yeah, we were busy, very busy.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think that if I had free time, I probably would just socialize with the other volunteers and the staff.

[Assistant] Before we get on that plane and go to Korea, is there anything else you'd like to say about training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think that if I had free time, I probably would just socialize with the other volunteers and the staff.

[Assistant] Before we get on that plane and go to Korea, is there anything else you'd like to say about training?

[User] Yes, two things. One is that the Korean staff gave us all Korean names before we left.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And so we were presented with our Korean names, and my Korean name was Lee Mi Hae. Lee is the surname, the family name, and Korea has a finite number of surnames, unlike the United States. I think around 200, 250. And Lee and Kim are among the most common. So it was a very common surname.

[Assistant] Oh, so Lee would be spelled?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it depends on how it's transliterated. Syngman Rhee spelled at R-H-E-E because the L and the R sound are ambiguous. So and E in English doesn't mean anything. I mean, you can't just have like a capital E. So, so when it's. [tape break]

[Assistant] Two.

[User] One of the solutions is what Syngman Rhee did, R-H-E-E, which is very uncommon. The most common solution is L-E-E.

[Assistant] Lee.

[User] Lee.

[Assistant] So your family name was Lee or E?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And because it was a Korean name, it was pronounced E.

[Assistant] Just E.

[User] E. Yeah.

[Assistant] That's it.

[User] But if it had to be written out, it would have been, you know, probably Lee or Mi.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Okay. So you were Lee and then Mi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then Hae, H-A-E.

[Assistant] H-A-E.

[User] Mi means beautiful. I mean, it can mean a number of things because the sound itself means a number of different words. And Koreans can figure it out by context. Or if it's written, they can figure it out because Chinese characters are used to clarify. So if there are five ways of understanding the phonetics of Mi, the Korean can decipher it linguistically by understanding the context, although there still can be ambiguity, which is the fun of poetry.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Or by, in a print form, if the person has been educated to the point where they understand Chinese characters. The Chinese character that's selected clarifies what the meaning is. And I have, I am sorry to say, forgotten the meaning of Hae.

[Assistant] But that's all right. So during training, you were Lee Mi Hae.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mi means beautiful. I mean, it can mean a number of things because the sound itself means a number of different words. And Koreans can figure it out by context. Or if it's written, they can figure it out because Chinese characters are used to clarify. So if there are five ways of understanding the phonetics of Mi, the Korean can decipher it linguistically by understanding the context, although there still can be ambiguity, which is the fun of poetry.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Or by, in a print form, if the person has been educated to the point where they understand Chinese characters. The Chinese character that's selected clarifies what the meaning is. And I have, I am sorry to say, forgotten the meaning of Hae.

[Assistant] But that's all right. So during training, you were Lee Mi Hae.

[User] The names were given to us, actually, I think fairly far into the training. So by the time we got the names, the Korean staff knew us. So these names meant, these, these were non random names.

[Assistant] Ah, they chose something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The names were given to us, actually, I think fairly far into the training. So by the time we got the names, the Korean staff knew us. So these names meant, these, these were non random names.

[Assistant] Ah, they chose something.

[User] They chose something.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I thought it was a lovely name and so.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you keep it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They chose something.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I thought it was a lovely name and so.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you keep it?

[User] Yes. I mean, we kept it for the duration of being there.

[Assistant] Being in Hawaii or in Korea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I thought it was a lovely name and so.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you keep it?

[User] Yes. I mean, we kept it for the duration of being there.

[Assistant] Being in Hawaii or in Korea.

[User] Uh, in Korea. Not that anybody called us that for real, but we had, many of us had dojangs made up. Dojang is the, is a seal, a Chinese seal. And when we had them made up, we had them made up with our Korean names.

[Assistant] Which you had acquired in Hawaii.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I mean, we kept it for the duration of being there.

[Assistant] Being in Hawaii or in Korea.

[User] Uh, in Korea. Not that anybody called us that for real, but we had, many of us had dojangs made up. Dojang is the, is a seal, a Chinese seal. And when we had them made up, we had them made up with our Korean names.

[Assistant] Which you had acquired in Hawaii.

[User] Which we had acquired in Hawaii.

[Assistant] And there was something else you wanted to say about training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, in Korea. Not that anybody called us that for real, but we had, many of us had dojangs made up. Dojang is the, is a seal, a Chinese seal. And when we had them made up, we had them made up with our Korean names.

[Assistant] Which you had acquired in Hawaii.

[User] Which we had acquired in Hawaii.

[Assistant] And there was something else you wanted to say about training.

[User] Now I've forgotten. Um. Sorry, I've forgotten.

[Assistant] Why don't we move on to Korea? And if that in the context of talking about Korea, if, if it pops back into your mind we can.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which we had acquired in Hawaii.

[Assistant] And there was something else you wanted to say about training.

[User] Now I've forgotten. Um. Sorry, I've forgotten.

[Assistant] Why don't we move on to Korea? And if that in the context of talking about Korea, if, if it pops back into your mind we can.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Go back to that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now I've forgotten. Um. Sorry, I've forgotten.

[Assistant] Why don't we move on to Korea? And if that in the context of talking about Korea, if, if it pops back into your mind we can.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Go back to that.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Okay. So I'm sorry if I'm rushing you along.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Go back to that.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Okay. So I'm sorry if I'm rushing you along.

[User] No.

[Assistant] But I want, I want to make sure we have enough time to talk about your experience in Korea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Okay. So I'm sorry if I'm rushing you along.

[User] No.

[Assistant] But I want, I want to make sure we have enough time to talk about your experience in Korea.

[User] No, I'm relying on your guidance.

[Assistant] Okay. So, um, you don't have time to, they don't send you back to United States to say goodbye to your families. You go from Hawaii directly to Korea. There's a flight. And you all land, I suppose, in Seoul?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] But I want, I want to make sure we have enough time to talk about your experience in Korea.

[User] No, I'm relying on your guidance.

[Assistant] Okay. So, um, you don't have time to, they don't send you back to United States to say goodbye to your families. You go from Hawaii directly to Korea. There's a flight. And you all land, I suppose, in Seoul?

[User] Yes. Actually, we landed in Incheon, which is maybe an hour by bus outside of Seoul to the west, which was where the airport was. There was an airport in Incheon.

[Assistant] Was there a welcoming party? Were there people there to meet you at the airport?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I'm relying on your guidance.

[Assistant] Okay. So, um, you don't have time to, they don't send you back to United States to say goodbye to your families. You go from Hawaii directly to Korea. There's a flight. And you all land, I suppose, in Seoul?

[User] Yes. Actually, we landed in Incheon, which is maybe an hour by bus outside of Seoul to the west, which was where the airport was. There was an airport in Incheon.

[Assistant] Was there a welcoming party? Were there people there to meet you at the airport?

[User] Yes. We were met with busses and we were met by, I believe, the Peace Corps director.

[Assistant] The country director?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Actually, we landed in Incheon, which is maybe an hour by bus outside of Seoul to the west, which was where the airport was. There was an airport in Incheon.

[Assistant] Was there a welcoming party? Were there people there to meet you at the airport?

[User] Yes. We were met with busses and we were met by, I believe, the Peace Corps director.

[Assistant] The country director?

[User] The country director named Kevin O'Donnell and maybe some of the office staff. But principally by Koreans and also the staff that we had trained with, the Korean staff that we had trained with. I don't remember.

[Assistant] Had they accompanied you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We were met with busses and we were met by, I believe, the Peace Corps director.

[Assistant] The country director?

[User] The country director named Kevin O'Donnell and maybe some of the office staff. But principally by Koreans and also the staff that we had trained with, the Korean staff that we had trained with. I don't remember.

[Assistant] Had they accompanied you?

[User] I don't know if it was every one of them, but it seemed to me that there was some overlap.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you get off in Seoul. And for one thing, we got on where it was summer.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] We're now talking, we're into deep January at least. And we got off in this winter.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Everything is gray. It's snowy, it's cold, it's barren looking. It's not urban. It's very rural. The airport is tiny. And we're put on busses that were standard Korean busses.

[Assistant] Had you been warned about the change in, the radical?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We're now talking, we're into deep January at least. And we got off in this winter.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Everything is gray. It's snowy, it's cold, it's barren looking. It's not urban. It's very rural. The airport is tiny. And we're put on busses that were standard Korean busses.

[Assistant] Had you been warned about the change in, the radical?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Change in temperature. So you had socks on, for example?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Change in temperature. So you had socks on, for example?

[User] Yes, we were prepared. I mean, we were told, and it was a climate that I was used to.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was just a big shock.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we were prepared. I mean, we were told, and it was a climate that I was used to.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was just a big shock.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[User] From summer to winter.

[Assistant] The opposite of those of us who flew from New York to Lagos, Nigeria, in January.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From summer to winter.

[Assistant] The opposite of those of us who flew from New York to Lagos, Nigeria, in January.

[User] Right. Went from winter to summer. So you understand.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] We were put on busses, and I don't remember how we were divided up, but we were put on busses and driven into Seoul, which was urban and sprawled out because it was mostly buildings that were under, I would say, five stories. There were no elevators.

[Assistant] You're talking about all of Seoul?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were put on busses, and I don't remember how we were divided up, but we were put on busses and driven into Seoul, which was urban and sprawled out because it was mostly buildings that were under, I would say, five stories. There were no elevators.

[Assistant] You're talking about all of Seoul?

[User] Yes. No elevators, no heat.

[Assistant] No heat?

[User] No heat. There was electricity, but no heat. Running water maybe. Flushing toilets never. A hole in the floor always.

[Assistant] The bathroom was a hole in, the toilet was a hole in the floor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Private homes had outhouses. And which was a hole in a little enclosure of some kind. What I have as the strongest memory is being on the bus as we drove into Seoul and looking out the window. And to me, it was like a kaleidoscope. It was a riot of color and imagery and shapes and costumes and conveyances that I could not make sense of. It was like I had been born again. Like, where am I? And what is all of this? Not, not what is that? But what is everything.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Total stimuli overload. Um, now I had been in Rome, which by comparison was a little tiny bit of stimuli overload. This was 100 percent stimuli overload.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think because I'd been through it with these earlier experiences, I knew that if I just stayed calm and paid attention, that it would begin to precipitate out that, you know, I would begin to understand one thing and then I would begin to understand another thing, that it would precipitate out and it would no longer seem what is the most profound experience of disorganization. I mean, culture shock is not, is not a metaphor. It is a shock. It's like being dropped into ice water.

[Assistant] Mm hmm, mm hmm.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Total stimuli overload. Um, now I had been in Rome, which by comparison was a little tiny bit of stimuli overload. This was 100 percent stimuli overload.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think because I'd been through it with these earlier experiences, I knew that if I just stayed calm and paid attention, that it would begin to precipitate out that, you know, I would begin to understand one thing and then I would begin to understand another thing, that it would precipitate out and it would no longer seem what is the most profound experience of disorganization. I mean, culture shock is not, is not a metaphor. It is a shock. It's like being dropped into ice water.

[Assistant] Mm hmm, mm hmm.

[User] So but I knew it would pass.

[Assistant] So you didn't panic because you knew that eventually you would, this would all begin to make sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think because I'd been through it with these earlier experiences, I knew that if I just stayed calm and paid attention, that it would begin to precipitate out that, you know, I would begin to understand one thing and then I would begin to understand another thing, that it would precipitate out and it would no longer seem what is the most profound experience of disorganization. I mean, culture shock is not, is not a metaphor. It is a shock. It's like being dropped into ice water.

[Assistant] Mm hmm, mm hmm.

[User] So but I knew it would pass.

[Assistant] So you didn't panic because you knew that eventually you would, this would all begin to make sense.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How about, how did your spouse do? You were married to David, who was also must have been going through some similar.