[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we had the inauguration and I think I COSed [close of service] probably a month after that. So.

[Assistant] And your wife continued being a nurse?

[User] She continued in the health program there, which had gone very well for her as well too. So we had a very positive experience in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] And then you stayed after Peace Corps as well?

[User] Right. So that's another story in itself.

[Assistant] OK, so what did you do after Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I want to mention, though, once I came back to the village, because we kept coming back to our village to visit. And one of the next volunteers came through town and he said, oh you're Glen? He said, Don Glen de las Luces. And I said, well, I guess. He said, around here they call you Don Glen de las Luces, which means Mr. Glen of the Lights.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] He said, because you brought lights to Santa Dolores, this community out there. So I said, OK, that's funny. He said, you set the bar pretty high for the rest of us.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which is true.

[Assistant] It's probably the best title you've had.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Take them to their homes, one in Guatemala City, or one stop in Quetzaltenango on the other side of the country, one in Guatemala City, and make a kind of roundabout.

[Assistant] So you had a shuttle bus.

[User] And then, yeah, then we started getting a lot of surgeons from the U.S. and dentists and others coming in and on short term. And so I would go in and pick them up and bring them out of medical supplies. So it was a six hour or seven hour drive or a 40 minute flight, basically. So that was, that was a highlight for me because then I did actually do a little bit more flying and was able to take what I learned in the Peace Corps, which is pretty much everything I knew, was learned in the Peace Corps. And I said, well, we're just going to do it here. And so we started setting up a model farm with soil conservation techniques, live and dead barriers, and intercropping and the things that I'd learned in, green manures and all these techniques that were being promoted in the Peace Corps. And then we brought in some appropriate technologies like hand pumps.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And fuel efficient woodstoves and a number of different things. And we just pretty much created a teaching farm, a model teaching farm there. And the farmers would come in on a crop share basis, which was very common in the area. And in return for them adapting one of the technologies that we were promoting, like green manures.

[Assistant] What is green?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And fuel efficient woodstoves and a number of different things. And we just pretty much created a teaching farm, a model teaching farm there. And the farmers would come in on a crop share basis, which was very common in the area. And in return for them adapting one of the technologies that we were promoting, like green manures.

[Assistant] What is green?

[User] Green manure is where you use cover crop, basically, which is a nitrogen fixating bean generally is what it would be, legume, to either cover the ground and control the weeds and then you incorporate it into the soil and it provides nitrogen back into the soil.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And organic matter, because most farmers just farm corn and corn and corn and corn. Maybe some beans.

[Assistant] Don't put the nitrogen back in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Green manure is where you use cover crop, basically, which is a nitrogen fixating bean generally is what it would be, legume, to either cover the ground and control the weeds and then you incorporate it into the soil and it provides nitrogen back into the soil.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And organic matter, because most farmers just farm corn and corn and corn and corn. Maybe some beans.

[Assistant] Don't put the nitrogen back in.

[User] Yeah, did not. So it was nitrogen depleted. And so and then it was eroding also. So the legumes that we were working with fixated nitrogen and then also helped control erosion. So they would adapt that technology and in return they would get their crop, all of it rather than split it, which is the normal way that you would crop share there. They would get it. So that was the condition of them farming on the land was to adopt a technology and then teach other farmers about it. And so they would have their own demonstrations and they would bring farmers in from their villages and say, here's what we're doing here, we should try this in our own villages. And it worked out very well. We had, I hired a very young staff of young, enthusiastic extension agents. And it had when I left, I think about 30 people working there and all just taking all these things and bringing in people. We had huge field days and activities to teach these new techniques that were very well accepted. So they went over very well.

[Assistant] How long did you do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And organic matter, because most farmers just farm corn and corn and corn and corn. Maybe some beans.

[Assistant] Don't put the nitrogen back in.

[User] Yeah, did not. So it was nitrogen depleted. And so and then it was eroding also. So the legumes that we were working with fixated nitrogen and then also helped control erosion. So they would adapt that technology and in return they would get their crop, all of it rather than split it, which is the normal way that you would crop share there. They would get it. So that was the condition of them farming on the land was to adopt a technology and then teach other farmers about it. And so they would have their own demonstrations and they would bring farmers in from their villages and say, here's what we're doing here, we should try this in our own villages. And it worked out very well. We had, I hired a very young staff of young, enthusiastic extension agents. And it had when I left, I think about 30 people working there and all just taking all these things and bringing in people. We had huge field days and activities to teach these new techniques that were very well accepted. So they went over very well.

[Assistant] How long did you do that?

[User] That was three years.

[Assistant] Another three years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, did not. So it was nitrogen depleted. And so and then it was eroding also. So the legumes that we were working with fixated nitrogen and then also helped control erosion. So they would adapt that technology and in return they would get their crop, all of it rather than split it, which is the normal way that you would crop share there. They would get it. So that was the condition of them farming on the land was to adopt a technology and then teach other farmers about it. And so they would have their own demonstrations and they would bring farmers in from their villages and say, here's what we're doing here, we should try this in our own villages. And it worked out very well. We had, I hired a very young staff of young, enthusiastic extension agents. And it had when I left, I think about 30 people working there and all just taking all these things and bringing in people. We had huge field days and activities to teach these new techniques that were very well accepted. So they went over very well.

[Assistant] How long did you do that?

[User] That was three years.

[Assistant] Another three years?

[User] Another three years.

[Assistant] So six years in Guatemala?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, it was three and a half years and Peace Corps was three and a half years.

[Assistant] So seven.

[User] So we were in Guatemala seven years total. And during that time my son was born in Guatemala, about the second year of our work there in this organization. That was a relatively very traumatic experience actually. The issue very briefly was that we were in a small hospital in Guatemala City and that evening there was a conflict in Guatemala City between the guerrilla and the military units. And somewhere out just outside of the city, the major electrical link or transformer or something for the city was destroyed. And so electricity was knocked out in the entire city. And this happened about 3 minutes after my son was delivered by Caesarean section.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And so he was fortunately okay, no need for any incubators, because the hospital had no backup generator, nothing at all. And so it was pitch dark and somebody had a penlight in their pocket like this and pulled it out. And that's what they used to finish the process and clean up and sew up and go into recovery. And all of this in the dark basically. And so it was not the type of experience.

[Assistant] You were really lucky.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we were in Guatemala seven years total. And during that time my son was born in Guatemala, about the second year of our work there in this organization. That was a relatively very traumatic experience actually. The issue very briefly was that we were in a small hospital in Guatemala City and that evening there was a conflict in Guatemala City between the guerrilla and the military units. And somewhere out just outside of the city, the major electrical link or transformer or something for the city was destroyed. And so electricity was knocked out in the entire city. And this happened about 3 minutes after my son was delivered by Caesarean section.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And so he was fortunately okay, no need for any incubators, because the hospital had no backup generator, nothing at all. And so it was pitch dark and somebody had a penlight in their pocket like this and pulled it out. And that's what they used to finish the process and clean up and sew up and go into recovery. And all of this in the dark basically. And so it was not the type of experience.

[Assistant] You were really lucky.

[User] Yes, not the type of experience we wanted to repeat. So we decided it was probably time to get back to the U.S. if we're going to continue having a family where my daughter was born then a year later in.

[Assistant] In the States.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so he was fortunately okay, no need for any incubators, because the hospital had no backup generator, nothing at all. And so it was pitch dark and somebody had a penlight in their pocket like this and pulled it out. And that's what they used to finish the process and clean up and sew up and go into recovery. And all of this in the dark basically. And so it was not the type of experience.

[Assistant] You were really lucky.

[User] Yes, not the type of experience we wanted to repeat. So we decided it was probably time to get back to the U.S. if we're going to continue having a family where my daughter was born then a year later in.

[Assistant] In the States.

[User] In the States, yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. So that's quite a, seven years in country. And you are now director of the National Peace Corps Association. So what happened between seven years in Guatemala to becoming director of the Peace Corps Association? Did you stay in international development activities and how did you end up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, not the type of experience we wanted to repeat. So we decided it was probably time to get back to the U.S. if we're going to continue having a family where my daughter was born then a year later in.

[Assistant] In the States.

[User] In the States, yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. So that's quite a, seven years in country. And you are now director of the National Peace Corps Association. So what happened between seven years in Guatemala to becoming director of the Peace Corps Association? Did you stay in international development activities and how did you end up?

[User] Yeah, in brief, it was, it was just a very rewarding and exciting career in international development, most of it overseas. I think that experience, of course, told me the place I want to be is out in the field and doing things with the farmers and others that I could work with. And so after moving back to the U.S. and being in the United States for a couple of years, at which time I started working with an NGO based in Washington, D.C., that again very. I would say along the way through my career, just I've been very blessed to have opportunities that I didn't expect and doors open to me that I wasn't even really looking for. And they just happened to open themselves and I was visiting my parents and happened to open up the newspaper and saw a job. I said, that sounds great. Recruiting volunteers to go overseas on international assignments and based right in Missouri.

[Assistant] For Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the States, yeah.

[Assistant] Wow. So that's quite a, seven years in country. And you are now director of the National Peace Corps Association. So what happened between seven years in Guatemala to becoming director of the Peace Corps Association? Did you stay in international development activities and how did you end up?

[User] Yeah, in brief, it was, it was just a very rewarding and exciting career in international development, most of it overseas. I think that experience, of course, told me the place I want to be is out in the field and doing things with the farmers and others that I could work with. And so after moving back to the U.S. and being in the United States for a couple of years, at which time I started working with an NGO based in Washington, D.C., that again very. I would say along the way through my career, just I've been very blessed to have opportunities that I didn't expect and doors open to me that I wasn't even really looking for. And they just happened to open themselves and I was visiting my parents and happened to open up the newspaper and saw a job. I said, that sounds great. Recruiting volunteers to go overseas on international assignments and based right in Missouri.

[Assistant] For Peace Corps?

[User] No, this was for, uh, this organization, an NGO called, at the time it was called VOCA, Volunteers in Overseas Cooperative Assistance. And they recruited volunteers from all over the United States for short term work, generally about a month, and primarily for a program they called Formative Farmer. So even more so, it was just right up my alley. It was agricultural work on USAID projects overseas. And so I started recruiting volunteers and that was for me a great way to meet people because I was recruiting co-operative managers and business owners and extension agents.

[Assistant] And you actually knew all of that by then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was just simply because we built on our history of being in the country for over 35 years and the fact that there was opportunity for us to play a major role in USAID's priorities there. And so we were able to be part of some pretty large projects that they were implementing in different parts of the country. So ultimately, I had to move from Santa Cruz to La Paz, which was great. I enjoyed La Paz as well. So four years in Santa Cruz in the eastern part and then six years in La Paz.

[Assistant] So your kids grew up in Bolivia.

[User] So my kids pretty much grew up in Bolivia between those two places, yeah. And they speak fluent Spanish, a little bit of local dialect as well. And in many ways consider that their home. Um, so that was all primarily agricultural work early on in the farmer to farmer program and in the work we were doing with volunteers. Then it moved more to be community development because we were doing social and productive infrastructure with USAID in this one particular area, which is a very fascinating area of Bolivia, where they have the coca production that's the legal produced coke, coca.

[Assistant] For cocaine?

[User] For cocaine. But it also is where the world's most dangerous road is. I don't know if you've heard of this in Bolivia, but it is a harrowing drive down and back into this valley. At the time it was, there's a new road now, but it involved driving on roads that were just barely wide enough for one vehicle.

[Assistant] And you met another one coming.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] I guess, the imagination to some extent of the volunteer.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And the ability to deal with ambiguity.

[User] Absolutely. Yeah. And the whole way I'm learning all kinds of things. So I never quit learning at all. And so quite often felt I was in over my head but somehow learned what I needed to learn. And again, it all goes back again to things you pick up in the Peace Corps about the tolerance of ambiguity, the ability to innovate and figure things out on your own, and the ability to listen well, I think, to community members and others, and to just be, just really be persistent in what you're trying to accomplish. And so it all really just happened because of my Peace Corps experience. And I think it was better because of the Peace Corps as well.

[Assistant] So let's, for the last few minutes of the interview, talk about your current position as director of the National Peace Corps Association. How does all of your experience over these years bring you to this job? And how do you, what is it that the association does and how do you instill that spirit in your work now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Soft power, yeah. And so our vision is to see the Peace Corps double, at least to double. And so we're set our sights on a really enhanced advocacy strategy that brings that about. And I'm very confident we're going to make it happen. We're going to work with whatever administration and whatever Congress we have and make that happen. And we're also going to work on behalf of volunteers who come back and have continued challenges from their Peace Corps services, to make sure that they receive the health care in particular that they need, and that our community of returned Peace Corps volunteers has the resources and support from us that they need to thrive. And so I say we're all about the community first, and then we're all about the Peace Corps itself as well.

[Assistant] I think that's probably a great place to end. So is there anything else that you want to talk about that I didn't ask you about?

[User] Um, I would just end it by saying, you know, I think like we all do, we wish every American had the opportunity to serve in the Peace Corps. So many of them are turned away now because there's not enough resources for funding volunteers. 25,000 applicants, and only 3,500 slots available for them. So several thousand qualified applicants are turned away and it's just a matter of having the resources for it. I think if every American that wanted to join the Peace Corps could and or did some type of national service, we could really, really change the way.

[Assistant] Change attitudes.

[User] The way, yeah, the way things are in the world. And I'm just very grateful for my own experience and very blessed to have had such a really fascinating life and career that was marked deeply by my Peace Corps experience, and for which I'm just really grateful to the Peace Corps and fortunate that I was able to have that opportunity.

[Assistant] Great. So thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, on 17, I can talk to you about that. On 15, I was the CapCom during the sleep period, see, because Joe Allen was the surface CapCom. So he was there while they were basically awake or certainly when they were out on the surface. So the question there about balancing those things, on 17 we can talk about that, and it really wasn’t that big a deal. But for 15, I was the quiet period, [although] we were doing planning and stuff like that.

[Assistant] Why don’t you talk to us about that period.

[User] The quiet period?

[Assistant] As you were the Goodnight CapCom, what would you do during that period?

[User] We would basically represent [the crew], if questions came up about here was a problem or potential problem in the lunar module or the command module, what should the crew be doing about it. Should we wake the crew up on this? Could we wait? … So you’re thinking a little bit about what they’re doing the next day, and you’re knowing the systems and their procedures just like the people in the control room doing this. They were all the experts and there’s all the real expects behind them in the back rooms. So basically there was a plan already, “This is what’s going to happen tomorrow.” But meanwhile some people, “Well, we need to add this,” or, “We need to take this out,” and you’re basically sort of the crew spokesmen, particularly at two o’clock in the morning.

[Assistant] And would you then present these ideas to Joe Allen when he came on board?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The quiet period?

[Assistant] As you were the Goodnight CapCom, what would you do during that period?

[User] We would basically represent [the crew], if questions came up about here was a problem or potential problem in the lunar module or the command module, what should the crew be doing about it. Should we wake the crew up on this? Could we wait? … So you’re thinking a little bit about what they’re doing the next day, and you’re knowing the systems and their procedures just like the people in the control room doing this. They were all the experts and there’s all the real expects behind them in the back rooms. So basically there was a plan already, “This is what’s going to happen tomorrow.” But meanwhile some people, “Well, we need to add this,” or, “We need to take this out,” and you’re basically sort of the crew spokesmen, particularly at two o’clock in the morning.

[Assistant] And would you then present these ideas to Joe Allen when he came on board?

[User] Basically you’d tell Joe what’s happened. If you look in the—if you watch—and I’m sure you guys have seen or been in there, in the control room—the shift change, everybody comes in and sits down. I don’t know how routine it is these days, but there’s about a half hour handover on, “Here’s all the problems.” There’s a lot of written documentation in those days where they wrote in their notebooks, a lot of, “Here’s what’s happened. We did this. This happened, but we’ve taken care of it with that. They’re going to do this tomorrow,” or, “They’re going to do it the next day instead of tomorrow.” All that stuff, just rapidly bring them up to date. But I’m sure you guys have seen basically loose-leaf notebooks with the forms, just wrote into the forms, and page after page after page, everybody handed—called handover.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about Apollo 17. I’m curious, you became the mission scientist for Apollo 17, and the first time that there was a mission scientist was on Apollo 15.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More beads and trinkets.

[Assistant] All right. All right. We’ll move on from there.

[User] More beads and trinkets.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about\n\n Challenger\n\n . Where were you when the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident occurred?

[User] We were preparing to fly in forty days or nights or whatever, to go observe Halley’s Comet on the next Shuttle flight, the very next one. That morning we were over in Building 5, training launches and entries, stopped to go watch the\n\n Challenger\n\n launch in a small room, on TV. Obviously we didn’t fly forty days later. Interestingly enough, forty days later it was even colder that morning. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Yes, I’ve read that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More beads and trinkets.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about\n\n Challenger\n\n . Where were you when the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident occurred?

[User] We were preparing to fly in forty days or nights or whatever, to go observe Halley’s Comet on the next Shuttle flight, the very next one. That morning we were over in Building 5, training launches and entries, stopped to go watch the\n\n Challenger\n\n launch in a small room, on TV. Obviously we didn’t fly forty days later. Interestingly enough, forty days later it was even colder that morning. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Yes, I’ve read that.

[User] And so what did we do after that, you ask.

[Assistant] Yes, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know how much reading you did ahead of time, but JPL is a contract. It’s not a NASA Center like JSC.

[Assistant] Right, yes.

[User] You know all those things.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And so we have about twenty-five people here, this floor, twenty-five people who oversee a contract that NASA, Code S, Space Science, has with Caltech to run JPL. The people who work at JPL are basically Caltech employees. They are soft-money employees, which means that if NASA stopped, ended its contract, they’d all lose their jobs. So there’s an office out here to oversee it. They wanted someone out here to change over, and so here I am.

[Assistant] So what are some of your basic duties as director?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, we named them for friends and famous people in books. One of them is called Shorty and it came from Jack and it’s something—I’ve forgotten. It’s some author. It’s not a book [that] I know, but it’s something about fishing in America with Shorty or something. There’s a famous book with that name.\n\n I was a big fan of Zhivago, and so one of them is named Lara. The Russians didn’t like that. And there’s a whole bunch of them. There’s a crater named Henry or Prince Henry or something, which is named for Prince Henry the Navigator. It’s just whimsical, great things.

[Assistant] Sounds like a fun job.

[User] Yes, it was. We spent time doing that. It’s just an example of the sorts of things that Jack and I [did] working closely together.

[Assistant] You spent some time while at JSC on the Astronaut Selection Board?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you share with us about—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. We spent time doing that. It’s just an example of the sorts of things that Jack and I [did] working closely together.

[Assistant] You spent some time while at JSC on the Astronaut Selection Board?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you share with us about—

[User] No, I can’t say a thing about that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] The pros and cons of being on that board?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. [Laughter] Either that or [everyone] else [had] something more important, I don’t know.

[Assistant] My last question is kind of just one for your own thoughts. Your span of time with NASA has covered so many duties, and you’ve had so many opportunities. Is there one or maybe two that you wish you could spent more time with or if you could have gone back or you could have been a little more instrumental in setting your own path? Would you have liked to have stayed in one of your paths just a little bit longer?

[User] Looking back in retrospect, no. At the time, of course. But looking back in retrospect, I would say no. I might [have] liked to have had a bit more success in continuing the science in the Shuttle during this period, [Station construction], and so forth. But one of the things I learned, which you see a little bit at JSC, of course, but not so much when you’re an astronaut, but [certainly] in going to Headquarters, is a thing called turf. Turf, turf, turf, turf. And the greatest idea in the world [that you] and your boss think is a great idea, but his boss doesn’t think is a good idea, and two years later it’s still being argued about. But that’s not unique to NASA either. [That’s actually not a very good description of “Turf,” but everyone knows what it is.]

[Assistant] Is there anything else you feel that we should cover, anything else that you would like to talk about today that we may have missed?

[User] You read through all these things, I assume, right?

[Assistant] Yes, we hit on all the high points.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Looking back in retrospect, no. At the time, of course. But looking back in retrospect, I would say no. I might [have] liked to have had a bit more success in continuing the science in the Shuttle during this period, [Station construction], and so forth. But one of the things I learned, which you see a little bit at JSC, of course, but not so much when you’re an astronaut, but [certainly] in going to Headquarters, is a thing called turf. Turf, turf, turf, turf. And the greatest idea in the world [that you] and your boss think is a great idea, but his boss doesn’t think is a good idea, and two years later it’s still being argued about. But that’s not unique to NASA either. [That’s actually not a very good description of “Turf,” but everyone knows what it is.]

[Assistant] Is there anything else you feel that we should cover, anything else that you would like to talk about today that we may have missed?

[User] You read through all these things, I assume, right?

[Assistant] Yes, we hit on all the high points.

[User] You did all those points, yes.

[Assistant] I was just curious if there is something that we have missed in our research or anything else you would like to add.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And certainly have seen a lot and have done so much, and I guess thinking back on those days, did you have plans when you were a young boy on what you wanted to do, and did you accomplish those, or did you just take all those different paths that led you where you are today?

[User] More the latter than the former. I'm always amazed when I meet the occasional ten-, eleven-, fourteen-year-old that knows what he or she wants to do. I never did. I think most kids never do. I knew I was interested in engineering and science, but beyond that, it was more what looks interesting for the next period of my life, what looks like an opportunity, and move in that direction, rather than have a long-term plan and work it out a step at a time. You can do it either way. In some ways it's more comfortable if you have a plan. If you have that kind of thing and you're good at that, great. Go for it.

[Assistant] We certainly thank you for your time with us today. Is there anything else that you would like to add, or is there a possibility we might have skipped over something you'd like to go back to at this point?

[User] No. Just different stories here and there and the other place, one thing or another, but, you know, we can go on and on with too many stories.

[Assistant] Well, we're always glad to hear from you, and we certainly thank you for the time that you gave to us today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More the latter than the former. I'm always amazed when I meet the occasional ten-, eleven-, fourteen-year-old that knows what he or she wants to do. I never did. I think most kids never do. I knew I was interested in engineering and science, but beyond that, it was more what looks interesting for the next period of my life, what looks like an opportunity, and move in that direction, rather than have a long-term plan and work it out a step at a time. You can do it either way. In some ways it's more comfortable if you have a plan. If you have that kind of thing and you're good at that, great. Go for it.

[Assistant] We certainly thank you for your time with us today. Is there anything else that you would like to add, or is there a possibility we might have skipped over something you'd like to go back to at this point?

[User] No. Just different stories here and there and the other place, one thing or another, but, you know, we can go on and on with too many stories.

[Assistant] Well, we're always glad to hear from you, and we certainly thank you for the time that you gave to us today.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] Thank you. [Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n How did you meet the Russians as part of your Association of Space Explorers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I served in the United States Navy from 1986 to 1992. I separated as electrician’s mate second class, qualified in submarines.

[Assistant] Where were you living at the time that you enlisted?

[User] I had just graduated from high school and had grown up in a small town called Mitchell, Nebraska.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to join?

[User] Largely because it seemed easier than going to college at that time.

[Assistant] Did it turn out to be as easy as expected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had just graduated from high school and had grown up in a small town called Mitchell, Nebraska.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to join?

[User] Largely because it seemed easier than going to college at that time.

[Assistant] Did it turn out to be as easy as expected?

[User] Yes, I know that I just wasn’t motivated for college at the point that I got out of high school and seemed like something better to do than just sticking around in a small town. So it was worthwhile. It was a lot of work but it was worthwhile.

[Assistant] Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Largely because it seemed easier than going to college at that time.

[Assistant] Did it turn out to be as easy as expected?

[User] Yes, I know that I just wasn’t motivated for college at the point that I got out of high school and seemed like something better to do than just sticking around in a small town. So it was worthwhile. It was a lot of work but it was worthwhile.

[Assistant] Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?

[User]
Largely to get out. I’d had a friend that had joined the Naval Interior Power Program, which is what I went into, a few years before and it seemed kind of interesting and submarines certainly seemed pretty interesting. So that’s primarily why I went that way.

Did you know a lot about submarines prior to joining?

A little, but nothing like I learned later.

[Assistant] What surprised you the most about submarine culture, the environment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I know that I just wasn’t motivated for college at the point that I got out of high school and seemed like something better to do than just sticking around in a small town. So it was worthwhile. It was a lot of work but it was worthwhile.

[Assistant] Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?

[User]
Largely to get out. I’d had a friend that had joined the Naval Interior Power Program, which is what I went into, a few years before and it seemed kind of interesting and submarines certainly seemed pretty interesting. So that’s primarily why I went that way.

Did you know a lot about submarines prior to joining?

A little, but nothing like I learned later.

[Assistant] What surprised you the most about submarine culture, the environment?

[User] Probably the quality of the people there. You worked with a group. In my case it was about 125 to 130 officers and enlisted men, and across the board I’ve never worked with a higher level of ability than I did when I was on board the ship. Just from the guys that were cooking the meals to the captain. They all just were super sharp and knew what they needed to do, and we all depended on each other to come back every time.

[Assistant] Do you think being underwater had some role in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Largely to get out. I’d had a friend that had joined the Naval Interior Power Program, which is what I went into, a few years before and it seemed kind of interesting and submarines certainly seemed pretty interesting. So that’s primarily why I went that way.

Did you know a lot about submarines prior to joining?

A little, but nothing like I learned later.

[Assistant] What surprised you the most about submarine culture, the environment?

[User] Probably the quality of the people there. You worked with a group. In my case it was about 125 to 130 officers and enlisted men, and across the board I’ve never worked with a higher level of ability than I did when I was on board the ship. Just from the guys that were cooking the meals to the captain. They all just were super sharp and knew what they needed to do, and we all depended on each other to come back every time.

[Assistant] Do you think being underwater had some role in that?

[User] Yeah, I mean, serving in the submarine service was unique. The one thing we learned when we got on board was a common mantra that said, anywhere you were inside the ship, you could reach out at arm’s length and you could touch something that had the potential to kill you. And that was very true, there was always at least high-voltage electricity within arm’s reach of where you were. When you were sleeping, you had high-voltage electricity running, sometimes right above your bunk. It was just everywhere. And so, with that knowledge, and then knowing that unlike a surface ship, if you had a problem you were already on the surface and you could abandon ship into lifeboats. And for us, first, we had to get to the surface for us to even contemplate something like that, and depending upon the casualty you might not make it to the surface. So everybody had to stay on that game and make sure that you recognized any potential problem that might arise no matter what you were doing.

[Assistant] Do you remember your first days in service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably the quality of the people there. You worked with a group. In my case it was about 125 to 130 officers and enlisted men, and across the board I’ve never worked with a higher level of ability than I did when I was on board the ship. Just from the guys that were cooking the meals to the captain. They all just were super sharp and knew what they needed to do, and we all depended on each other to come back every time.

[Assistant] Do you think being underwater had some role in that?

[User] Yeah, I mean, serving in the submarine service was unique. The one thing we learned when we got on board was a common mantra that said, anywhere you were inside the ship, you could reach out at arm’s length and you could touch something that had the potential to kill you. And that was very true, there was always at least high-voltage electricity within arm’s reach of where you were. When you were sleeping, you had high-voltage electricity running, sometimes right above your bunk. It was just everywhere. And so, with that knowledge, and then knowing that unlike a surface ship, if you had a problem you were already on the surface and you could abandon ship into lifeboats. And for us, first, we had to get to the surface for us to even contemplate something like that, and depending upon the casualty you might not make it to the surface. So everybody had to stay on that game and make sure that you recognized any potential problem that might arise no matter what you were doing.

[Assistant] Do you remember your first days in service?

[User] Yeah, so I left western Nebraska. I went to basic training in Great Lakes Naval Station in North Chicago. And got there, it would have been late on January 3rd. Got a few moments of sleep and the next thing I knew I was being woke up by metal trashcan being thrown, kicked, and tossed through the room as they woke all of us up to start out our first full day of basic training.

[Assistant] What did it feel like to be in the service finally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I left Hawaii actually on December 13. I didn’t separate until January 2 of 1992. I left in December of 1991. Yeah, it was kind of a fun day. I mean I had done all my paperwork to leave the island and basically go on what’s called terminal leave where you spent the last, my last 21 days of leave and then I just never had to check in again. And had done all that and sat around with the guys that were, the engineering department at that point was actually on shift work for a major evolution that was going on the ship. And so I was sitting around with the day crew or the crew that would have been on at night, and we were just sitting around shooting the breeze, having a good time for a few hours. I think my flight was probably like 4:00 or 5:00 out of the Honolulu International. And so one or two of the guys who had taken me down there to get me off. So it was just kind of nice chance to sit around and shoot the breeze with half the crew or so, or half the engineering crew anyway.

[Assistant] Did you go back to school when you got out?

[User] Yes, I did, like a year and a half at a small state school in eastern Nebraska called Peru State College. And then I transferred to the University of Kansas probably as much to get married as for the education, and finished my bachelor’s and then also got a master’s in historical administration and museum studies from University of Kansas.

[Assistant] Was it difficult to make that transition from submarine electrician to historical museum?

[User] No, I mean it was a slow transition in some ways. I spent time at a couple of different historical places before I ended up at National Archives working in the Federal Records Center and stayed there for, well, I worked here at the FRC for like 11 years before I transferred to Research Services and still continue to work here with the archival records.

[Assistant] Was your education supported by the GI Bill or was that before that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I did, like a year and a half at a small state school in eastern Nebraska called Peru State College. And then I transferred to the University of Kansas probably as much to get married as for the education, and finished my bachelor’s and then also got a master’s in historical administration and museum studies from University of Kansas.

[Assistant] Was it difficult to make that transition from submarine electrician to historical museum?

[User] No, I mean it was a slow transition in some ways. I spent time at a couple of different historical places before I ended up at National Archives working in the Federal Records Center and stayed there for, well, I worked here at the FRC for like 11 years before I transferred to Research Services and still continue to work here with the archival records.

[Assistant] Was your education supported by the GI Bill or was that before that?

[User] Yeah, it was supported by it. Yep, they helped out.

[Assistant] Did you make any close friendships while you were in the service? And do you continue any of those friendships today or the relationships today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I mean it was a slow transition in some ways. I spent time at a couple of different historical places before I ended up at National Archives working in the Federal Records Center and stayed there for, well, I worked here at the FRC for like 11 years before I transferred to Research Services and still continue to work here with the archival records.

[Assistant] Was your education supported by the GI Bill or was that before that?

[User] Yeah, it was supported by it. Yep, they helped out.

[Assistant] Did you make any close friendships while you were in the service? And do you continue any of those friendships today or the relationships today?

[User] Yeah, there’s two or three in particular. Actually, one of the officer that I served with is still a really good friend. He runs a business out in San Francisco Bay Area. Then an electrician that I spent pretty much the entire four years that I was onboard the ship, we arrived the same day, and he left a month before I did. And he’s down in the Tampa Bay area, and I still chat with those two in particular fairly often. And then there’s a group for the boat on Facebook that I chat with on occasion.

[Assistant] Have you ever tried accessing your military records?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was supported by it. Yep, they helped out.

[Assistant] Did you make any close friendships while you were in the service? And do you continue any of those friendships today or the relationships today?

[User] Yeah, there’s two or three in particular. Actually, one of the officer that I served with is still a really good friend. He runs a business out in San Francisco Bay Area. Then an electrician that I spent pretty much the entire four years that I was onboard the ship, we arrived the same day, and he left a month before I did. And he’s down in the Tampa Bay area, and I still chat with those two in particular fairly often. And then there’s a group for the boat on Facebook that I chat with on occasion.

[Assistant] Have you ever tried accessing your military records?

[User] No, I haven’t. I’ve thought about it but I don’t really have any particular need to get to them. Yeah, I have helped a person or two here in Lenexa that was needing some help from the people in St. Louis, and I’ve helped them get some access to their records, but I haven’t needed to for myself.

[Assistant] Did you join a veteran’s organization?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there’s two or three in particular. Actually, one of the officer that I served with is still a really good friend. He runs a business out in San Francisco Bay Area. Then an electrician that I spent pretty much the entire four years that I was onboard the ship, we arrived the same day, and he left a month before I did. And he’s down in the Tampa Bay area, and I still chat with those two in particular fairly often. And then there’s a group for the boat on Facebook that I chat with on occasion.

[Assistant] Have you ever tried accessing your military records?

[User] No, I haven’t. I’ve thought about it but I don’t really have any particular need to get to them. Yeah, I have helped a person or two here in Lenexa that was needing some help from the people in St. Louis, and I’ve helped them get some access to their records, but I haven’t needed to for myself.

[Assistant] Did you join a veteran’s organization?

[User] No, I never did.

[Assistant] What did you do after the service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I haven’t. I’ve thought about it but I don’t really have any particular need to get to them. Yeah, I have helped a person or two here in Lenexa that was needing some help from the people in St. Louis, and I’ve helped them get some access to their records, but I haven’t needed to for myself.

[Assistant] Did you join a veteran’s organization?

[User] No, I never did.

[Assistant] What did you do after the service?

[User] After I got my degree, I worked at an association for golf course superintendents as their archivist and records manager. I did that for a couple of years. I worked at a science museum for a few years. Then I worked at a historical farm at a stagecoach stop, and I actually drove a stagecoach for like two and a half years. And then I got the job with the Federal Records Center and then into the archives side of it here, a couple of years ago now.

[Assistant] So from a golf course to the science museum to the historical farm to a stagecoach, what was your favorite pre-NARA job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I never did.

[Assistant] What did you do after the service?

[User] After I got my degree, I worked at an association for golf course superintendents as their archivist and records manager. I did that for a couple of years. I worked at a science museum for a few years. Then I worked at a historical farm at a stagecoach stop, and I actually drove a stagecoach for like two and a half years. And then I got the job with the Federal Records Center and then into the archives side of it here, a couple of years ago now.

[Assistant] So from a golf course to the science museum to the historical farm to a stagecoach, what was your favorite pre-NARA job?

[User] Oh, I would have to say it was work with horses, driving a stagecoach. I mean it was a lot of fun. I have a thing with animals. I work well with animals. For the most part we got along pretty well.

[Assistant] Did you learn how to play golf too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After I got my degree, I worked at an association for golf course superintendents as their archivist and records manager. I did that for a couple of years. I worked at a science museum for a few years. Then I worked at a historical farm at a stagecoach stop, and I actually drove a stagecoach for like two and a half years. And then I got the job with the Federal Records Center and then into the archives side of it here, a couple of years ago now.

[Assistant] So from a golf course to the science museum to the historical farm to a stagecoach, what was your favorite pre-NARA job?

[User] Oh, I would have to say it was work with horses, driving a stagecoach. I mean it was a lot of fun. I have a thing with animals. I work well with animals. For the most part we got along pretty well.

[Assistant] Did you learn how to play golf too?

[User] Not particularly, I know how to play but I’m not any good, and I usually drive the other people around me crazy if I’m golfing because I don’t take it serious enough. So never really did but it was an interesting place because it was basically for the groundskeepers for the golf course is what the association was. And so, we had some old grounds-keeping equipment that came from Saint Andrews in Scotland and whatnot, and I would get to play and tinker with those things. I did both their archives and their museum equipment, so that was kind of fun.

[Assistant] How did your service and experiences affect your life overall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] William H. Davis. W-I-L-L-I-A-M H. Davis, D-A-V-I-S.

[Assistant] What is your affiliation with NARA at the moment?

[User] I’m with the Center for Legislative Archives.

[Assistant] Okay. What is your position?

[User]
Archivist.

Some might say unofficially a senior archivist, but officially, the title is archivist. There isn’t an official job title of senior archivist. We’re all archivists. Whether you’re a 13 or a 12 or an 11 or what have you, you’re an archivist. There isn’t a job title that reflects one’s longevity. There are archives specialists, there are supervisory archivists, but there aren’t senior archivists. I’m an archivist. But since I’ve been here for over 30 years, sometimes people will say senior archivist just to be polite. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Now, for some background information on you before we get into the meat and potatoes of your time here. Where were you born?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m with the Center for Legislative Archives.

[Assistant] Okay. What is your position?

[User]
Archivist.

Some might say unofficially a senior archivist, but officially, the title is archivist. There isn’t an official job title of senior archivist. We’re all archivists. Whether you’re a 13 or a 12 or an 11 or what have you, you’re an archivist. There isn’t a job title that reflects one’s longevity. There are archives specialists, there are supervisory archivists, but there aren’t senior archivists. I’m an archivist. But since I’ve been here for over 30 years, sometimes people will say senior archivist just to be polite. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Now, for some background information on you before we get into the meat and potatoes of your time here. Where were you born?

[User] New York City, Manhattan. Raised on Long Island.

[Assistant] Quite a bit of distance from there to here. What got you interested in the archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Archivist.

Some might say unofficially a senior archivist, but officially, the title is archivist. There isn’t an official job title of senior archivist. We’re all archivists. Whether you’re a 13 or a 12 or an 11 or what have you, you’re an archivist. There isn’t a job title that reflects one’s longevity. There are archives specialists, there are supervisory archivists, but there aren’t senior archivists. I’m an archivist. But since I’ve been here for over 30 years, sometimes people will say senior archivist just to be polite. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Now, for some background information on you before we get into the meat and potatoes of your time here. Where were you born?

[User] New York City, Manhattan. Raised on Long Island.

[Assistant] Quite a bit of distance from there to here. What got you interested in the archives?

[User] I did my undergraduate work at Washington and Jefferson College in southwestern Pennsylvania. Then I went to the University of Maryland as a graduate student. I learned about what was called the Hills Program, where one can earn a degree in history and library science in the Library School. So I enrolled in that, and one of the classes I took was taught by Frank Burke, who was then an adjunct professor there. I learned about the National Archives through him. I could’ve done an internship anywhere in Washington at the time, but I wound up doing an internship here at the Archives. While I was an intern here in the fall of 1982, they offered me a job as an intermittent archives technician. I accepted it, and have been here ever since.

[Assistant] Okay. So why were you interested in that specific program at the University of Maryland?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] New York City, Manhattan. Raised on Long Island.

[Assistant] Quite a bit of distance from there to here. What got you interested in the archives?

[User] I did my undergraduate work at Washington and Jefferson College in southwestern Pennsylvania. Then I went to the University of Maryland as a graduate student. I learned about what was called the Hills Program, where one can earn a degree in history and library science in the Library School. So I enrolled in that, and one of the classes I took was taught by Frank Burke, who was then an adjunct professor there. I learned about the National Archives through him. I could’ve done an internship anywhere in Washington at the time, but I wound up doing an internship here at the Archives. While I was an intern here in the fall of 1982, they offered me a job as an intermittent archives technician. I accepted it, and have been here ever since.

[Assistant] Okay. So why were you interested in that specific program at the University of Maryland?

[User] When I was graduating from college and going into graduate school, I was told that teaching positions in history were very difficult to find. They’re even more difficult to find now. When I learned about that program, where the emphasis is on archives and manuscripts and special libraries, I thought, wow, that’s fascinating because I love historical libraries. I knew that others were involved in it. I just thought it was something to try, and I loved it from the start. I knew that it was a very good fit for me because I loved history and historic libraries. History was always my strong subject, and it was always my main interest throughout my growing up years. It was a foregone conclusion that I would major in history.

[Assistant] Was there a specific time period of history you were interested in, or just history in general?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did my undergraduate work at Washington and Jefferson College in southwestern Pennsylvania. Then I went to the University of Maryland as a graduate student. I learned about what was called the Hills Program, where one can earn a degree in history and library science in the Library School. So I enrolled in that, and one of the classes I took was taught by Frank Burke, who was then an adjunct professor there. I learned about the National Archives through him. I could’ve done an internship anywhere in Washington at the time, but I wound up doing an internship here at the Archives. While I was an intern here in the fall of 1982, they offered me a job as an intermittent archives technician. I accepted it, and have been here ever since.

[Assistant] Okay. So why were you interested in that specific program at the University of Maryland?

[User] When I was graduating from college and going into graduate school, I was told that teaching positions in history were very difficult to find. They’re even more difficult to find now. When I learned about that program, where the emphasis is on archives and manuscripts and special libraries, I thought, wow, that’s fascinating because I love historical libraries. I knew that others were involved in it. I just thought it was something to try, and I loved it from the start. I knew that it was a very good fit for me because I loved history and historic libraries. History was always my strong subject, and it was always my main interest throughout my growing up years. It was a foregone conclusion that I would major in history.

[Assistant] Was there a specific time period of history you were interested in, or just history in general?

[User] I was always particularly fascinated with the Age of Enlightenment, 17th-and 18th-century French history in particular, the early modern period. I always enjoyed American history also. But certainly since I’ve been with the Archives, I’ve learned a great deal about all of American history. It’s all fascinating to me.

[Assistant] Have you come across any documents from the 17th-century or 18th-century in the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was there from 1982 to 1984.

[Assistant] So what were the most interesting records that you came across during that time?

[User] I can’t remember anything specifically. I remember I did a lot of microfilm publications, which were done a lot in those years. I surveyed records and prepared them for microfilm publication. I wrote little descriptions about them for a microfilm pamphlet. I put in target pages that let the film person know when to stop a section and to start another. I must’ve done other processing as well. But I always found the Consular Post files to be absolutely fascinating. The State Department records have their own classification scheme that they devised, so you can study it and see how things were arranged so you can focus on the areas that interest you the most. The State Department records were very well organized. They had good records management practices. The General Records of the State Department also were very interesting, but I don’t remember much about those. I remember the Consular Post files were particularly interesting.

[Assistant] I was listening to an interview with another archivist here last week who currently deals with State Department records…

[User] David Langbart?

[Assistant] No, it was Paul Wester.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t remember anything specifically. I remember I did a lot of microfilm publications, which were done a lot in those years. I surveyed records and prepared them for microfilm publication. I wrote little descriptions about them for a microfilm pamphlet. I put in target pages that let the film person know when to stop a section and to start another. I must’ve done other processing as well. But I always found the Consular Post files to be absolutely fascinating. The State Department records have their own classification scheme that they devised, so you can study it and see how things were arranged so you can focus on the areas that interest you the most. The State Department records were very well organized. They had good records management practices. The General Records of the State Department also were very interesting, but I don’t remember much about those. I remember the Consular Post files were particularly interesting.

[Assistant] I was listening to an interview with another archivist here last week who currently deals with State Department records…

[User] David Langbart?

[Assistant] No, it was Paul Wester.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] And he was talking about the problems they’re having with Hillary Clinton’s emails, not just hers, but the early years with emails, and how they were being handled, what to do with them. Were there any similar kind of problems with records, whether people weren’t necessarily keeping them, or filing them like they’re supposed to, or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] David Langbart?

[Assistant] No, it was Paul Wester.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] And he was talking about the problems they’re having with Hillary Clinton’s emails, not just hers, but the early years with emails, and how they were being handled, what to do with them. Were there any similar kind of problems with records, whether people weren’t necessarily keeping them, or filing them like they’re supposed to, or—

[User] Yes. I’m thinking back about State Department records, which I haven’t worked with in many, many, years. I remember in the early 1980s, the newer State Department records that were just coming in to the Archives, that classification scheme that had worked so well for State Department records up through the early- to mid-20th-century, was no longer being used. So that presented problems for the archivists here on how to decipher them, how they should be filed. The fact that the old classification scheme was no longer useful, was presenting a new problem. We didn’t have email issues because there was no such thing. To organize the newer records, we needed a new classification scheme, because the old one was no longer useful; it had broken down.

[Assistant] Were you involved in decisions about how to start reclassifying this stuff when it was coming in, or was that at a higher level?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, yes.

[Assistant] And he was talking about the problems they’re having with Hillary Clinton’s emails, not just hers, but the early years with emails, and how they were being handled, what to do with them. Were there any similar kind of problems with records, whether people weren’t necessarily keeping them, or filing them like they’re supposed to, or—

[User] Yes. I’m thinking back about State Department records, which I haven’t worked with in many, many, years. I remember in the early 1980s, the newer State Department records that were just coming in to the Archives, that classification scheme that had worked so well for State Department records up through the early- to mid-20th-century, was no longer being used. So that presented problems for the archivists here on how to decipher them, how they should be filed. The fact that the old classification scheme was no longer useful, was presenting a new problem. We didn’t have email issues because there was no such thing. To organize the newer records, we needed a new classification scheme, because the old one was no longer useful; it had broken down.

[Assistant] Were you involved in decisions about how to start reclassifying this stuff when it was coming in, or was that at a higher level?

[User] That was a higher level—but I know certain discussions were going on. I don’t think I was involved in anything that important. But I know that those issues were going on at the time. There are always new issues, new challenges to what we do here, no matter what records we’re working with.

[Assistant] So in 1984, you left that office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm Yuri Kargopolov. Pleased to meet you. I'm a native of Byelorussia; Belarus, as they call it now. I graduated from Military Engineering Academy, named after Professor Zhukovsky. So my first order was the Air Force, actually. I was doing technical work for the Air Force. Upon my graduation from the academy, I was hired by the Cosmonaut Training Center and that was in 1974, so since that year I'm presently working at the Cosmonaut Training Center.

[Assistant] The Gagarin Training Center that you're at now, or Star City?

[User] Yes, Star City. So this is the place where we train all our crews for missions on our manned vehicles, Soyuz and various space stations that we have had over the course of those years. So, as I said, I started working at Star City in 1974, and that was exactly a year before our first joint project, Soyuz-Apollo, or Apollo-Soyuz.\n\n So when I started, the crew training was already on its way at Star City. Unfortunately, at that time I was not directly involved in crew training for Apollo-Soyuz Program. At that time I was working at the department that was responsible for crew training for our then orbital station Salyut 4. So for the first few years, I was quite actively involved in crew training for Salyut 4 and then Salyut 5, 6, and Salyut 7. So I was an integrated training instructor. That was my primary responsibility.\n\n So it's really very nice for me to be here now when Ryumin is about to start his mission, because I remember when I started my career as a training instructor, he was one of my students preparing for his mission on Salyut 4.

[Assistant] It must be neat to be able to follow his career and able to close it out together with the Shuttle.

[User] Yes, of course. It's very neat and we have a lot of fond memories together.

[Assistant] What are your current duties in the Phase 1 Shuttle-Mir Program? Can you explain what your working group does?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, of course. It's very neat and we have a lot of fond memories together.

[Assistant] What are your current duties in the Phase 1 Shuttle-Mir Program? Can you explain what your working group does?

[User] Our group was formed as a joint training group and the crew exchange group for both Mir-Shuttle and Mir-NASA programs. When we started working on this joint program, my American counterpart was Donald Puddy. I would like to express my admiration and gratitude to this person. I really learned a lot from him.\n\n Our main responsibility was to prepare Russian cosmonauts and American astronauts for a joint approach for training astronauts in Russia and our cosmonauts here, so that they could successfully complete their tasks on orbit.

[Assistant] Let's talk about the training a little bit in the first crew that came over with Norm [Norman E.] Thagard and Bonnie [J.] Dunbar. How did that process take place? I know that the language barrier was one thing you had to overcome, but were there other things that happened?

[User] Yes, that was, of course, a challenging experience, although I have to say that that was not a real serious problem for us, because we already by that time had a pretty good experience in training foreign cosmonauts to fly on our space station. I don't know if you know, but we actually trained foreign cosmonauts from more than twenty countries to fly on the Mir station.\n\n So basically we have the same approach for everybody who comes to our training center. First three months are normally spent just by studying the Russian language. It's a very intensive Russian-language course. Then after that, we start slowly immersing them into all technical subjects such as design of the vehicle, design of various elements and components, subsystems, and so on. So it's a gradual process.

[Assistant] Did the training syllabus change whether it was a long mission or a short mission, or what vehicle you rode up, whether it was the Soyuz or the Shuttle? Were there differences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. That was the only landing we made with just two, and it was okay.\n\n That’s another reason for going into the water. If your objective isn’t to prove you can land on land, water is a really forgiving substance. I say that, but we fought the water impact. I didn’t work directly on this as much, but the Apollo vehicle, if you put it in the water too flat, that heat shield would give and make itself even flatter, and you could develop some extreme pressures, more than the heat shield would stand. You could bust it by hitting at thirty feet per second just at the wrong angle, like on a wave slope. So we did a lot of technology efforts to try to solve that problem. And that’s one reason we looked to landing on land for Apollo. We had some neat systems for landing on land for Apollo, like the rocking rocket. Have you heard of that?

[Assistant] No, I’m not familiar with that one.

[User] It would come dragging in like this and touch down on the back of the heat shield. Then it would rock over, and this gets to be a really dynamic event. After this contact, we would fire a small rocket up here and arrest the rotation rate. That worked good.

[Assistant] Then just land with a regular parachute then?

[User] Just drifting with a regular parachute.

[Assistant] At what point did they give up trying to put Apollo down on the ground?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would come dragging in like this and touch down on the back of the heat shield. Then it would rock over, and this gets to be a really dynamic event. After this contact, we would fire a small rocket up here and arrest the rotation rate. That worked good.

[Assistant] Then just land with a regular parachute then?

[User] Just drifting with a regular parachute.

[Assistant] At what point did they give up trying to put Apollo down on the ground?

[User] We never really had that as a strong objective. It was a technology driver more than anything else. I would say we probably started really giving up on those kind of efforts when it became clear we were build a Shuttle, which was fairly early for us. Usually people like me were kind of loose from a program a year or two before we stopped flying those missions and already working on the next one.\n\n So the first thing we worked on was the Space Station before Apollo was over. The Agency kind of made a choice that the Shuttle—that the more convenient access to Earth orbit was the most important part of that future overall plan. So we went in the Shuttle direction. Suddenly I’m without parachutes, except the first mission had ejection seats.

[Assistant] So as someone who had been doing parachutes all along, how did that—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You said that very well, very well. I felt that very strongly throughout my career to the last few years. In the last few years, some of the problems just got to be a bit too big for us. I’m talking about Space Station requirements. One of the Space Station requirements is bailing Russia out of their financial problems. I’m not saying that’s not important for the country; it’s just different. It’s not the way I did systems engineering.

[Assistant] It sounds to us that everything that you learned you were able to build on. We certainly have enjoyed listening how you made changes and made those results that you were looking for.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] Those were all the questions I had as well, so unless there’s anything else you’d like to say, I'd like to give you the opportunity.

[User] I don’t think so. I might really like to sit down when I see the result and add a few things.

[Assistant] Well, you’ll certainly have that opportunity. I'd like to thank you for joining us today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Trying to finish college.

[Assistant] And where was that?

[User] I was at Hamilton College in upstate New York, near Clinton, New York. That's where I did my bachelors work and trying to decide what to make of my life.

[Assistant] We stopped the tape recorder just to make sure it's picking up. Henry, let's go back. Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in first in Brooklyn, New York, in the part of Brooklyn known as Brownsville, and I was there for the first, what, eight, nine years of my life. And then we moved to Hempstead, on Long Island, where I finished grade school and high school and then went to Hamilton College in 1960 and into the Peace Corps in ‘64.

[Assistant] And did you have a big family, siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at Hamilton College in upstate New York, near Clinton, New York. That's where I did my bachelors work and trying to decide what to make of my life.

[Assistant] We stopped the tape recorder just to make sure it's picking up. Henry, let's go back. Where did you grow up?

[User] I grew up in first in Brooklyn, New York, in the part of Brooklyn known as Brownsville, and I was there for the first, what, eight, nine years of my life. And then we moved to Hempstead, on Long Island, where I finished grade school and high school and then went to Hamilton College in 1960 and into the Peace Corps in ‘64.

[Assistant] And did you have a big family, siblings?

[User] It's a small family. I have one older sister who was three years older than me. We were a very close family. I loved my parents very much. They were very supportive in what I wanted to do, very encouraging all along the way.

[Assistant] And did you travel with you, with your folks, as a kid?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in first in Brooklyn, New York, in the part of Brooklyn known as Brownsville, and I was there for the first, what, eight, nine years of my life. And then we moved to Hempstead, on Long Island, where I finished grade school and high school and then went to Hamilton College in 1960 and into the Peace Corps in ‘64.

[Assistant] And did you have a big family, siblings?

[User] It's a small family. I have one older sister who was three years older than me. We were a very close family. I loved my parents very much. They were very supportive in what I wanted to do, very encouraging all along the way.

[Assistant] And did you travel with you, with your folks, as a kid?

[User] Yes, we traveled some on the East Coast and sometimes longer trips and but not a whole lot. We, in the summertime, we had there was a place that my grandparents had purchased in Monroe, New York. It was a kind of farm, an old farmhouse, and with a barn. So summers were spent there. So exploring a rural situation, out of Brooklyn and out of Homestead and, uh, but not so much traveling. And I became involved with social activities in the high school and some sports, some track and some tennis. I became the president of the student government at my high school, at Hempstead High School, and that led to my first international experience.

[Assistant] Ah, what was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, 17 or 18. Yeah, well, first year of college it would be 18, I guess probably 18, 19. And I had studied French in high school and was continuing to do it at Hamilton. So that was fine. So it was great. So I spent the summer of ‘61 in France living with a French family, traveling locally with my French brother. And we also did a kind of camping trip, all of us that were in our group, with our brothers, our French brothers and sisters, in the south of France. And we spent some time in Paris. Um, that summer, as you might remember, was the summer when the wall in Berlin was starting to be built. And I wanted to reconnect with Peter, who I had been keeping in touch with. So.

[Assistant] And he was in West Berlin?

[User] He was in West Berlin. Yeah. And so at a crucial moment in our program, when we were going back up to Paris and just for a final week to 10 days before returning to the States with the Experiment group, I went A-W-O-L. I went AWOL and I flew to West Berlin to see Peter and to see what was happening in Berlin.

[Assistant] Yes, but you had finished pretty much your time?

[User] Yeah, pretty much. The program was finished and we were back just with our group. We had left our families and it was the last few days in Paris. But I decided to go to West Berlin to see what was happening.

[Assistant] Did you folks know you were doing this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was in West Berlin. Yeah. And so at a crucial moment in our program, when we were going back up to Paris and just for a final week to 10 days before returning to the States with the Experiment group, I went A-W-O-L. I went AWOL and I flew to West Berlin to see Peter and to see what was happening in Berlin.

[Assistant] Yes, but you had finished pretty much your time?

[User] Yeah, pretty much. The program was finished and we were back just with our group. We had left our families and it was the last few days in Paris. But I decided to go to West Berlin to see what was happening.

[Assistant] Did you folks know you were doing this?

[User] No, no. I told them afterwards and I got to see Peter. I stayed with him and his family. We saw the wall being built. And all of that was a kind of extension of that initial experience. So I came back and then continued my four years at Hamilton, majoring in French, because I came back speaking pretty well. And I also did other languages because I was interested in cultures, different cultures, I did Spanish and I did Russian. That was my roots journey because my family, my grandparents, had come from the Ukraine and from Belorussia and they self-identified as Russians.

[Assistant] Your mother's people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I told them afterwards and I got to see Peter. I stayed with him and his family. We saw the wall being built. And all of that was a kind of extension of that initial experience. So I came back and then continued my four years at Hamilton, majoring in French, because I came back speaking pretty well. And I also did other languages because I was interested in cultures, different cultures, I did Spanish and I did Russian. That was my roots journey because my family, my grandparents, had come from the Ukraine and from Belorussia and they self-identified as Russians.

[Assistant] Your mother's people?

[User] And my father’s people, both. My father's people from the Ukraine, but from eastern Ukraine, especially the area that's under duress right now and my mother's family from Belarus in that area between Russia and Poland. So I wanted to do that kind of tracing my own kind of roots. Came to the senior year in college and didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was being asked to engage or participate in interviews for jobs with companies and so on. And I went to one interview for Ma Bell as she was called at that time.

[Assistant] Yes, AT&T.

[User] AT&T, and was offered an administrative position in New York City. Most of my classmates, many of them who came from boarding schools, private schools, were thinking of going into either their parents’ business or business world or to become lawyers or to become doctors. That was not for me. That wasn't something I was interested in. And after the interview, I realized that that was not what I wanted to do. That's not what I want to be. I had no interest in that. So I had been very much moved by JFK and the idealism of giving back to your country, you know, and contributing in some way. And I think that had a very strong impact on me. His assassination was a very powerful emotional moment.

[Assistant] You were somewhere in Hamilton?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] AT&T, and was offered an administrative position in New York City. Most of my classmates, many of them who came from boarding schools, private schools, were thinking of going into either their parents’ business or business world or to become lawyers or to become doctors. That was not for me. That wasn't something I was interested in. And after the interview, I realized that that was not what I wanted to do. That's not what I want to be. I had no interest in that. So I had been very much moved by JFK and the idealism of giving back to your country, you know, and contributing in some way. And I think that had a very strong impact on me. His assassination was a very powerful emotional moment.

[Assistant] You were somewhere in Hamilton?

[User] I was at Hamilton, well, when the news came, actually, I was in Canada because I was visiting friends in Montreal with two of my classmates when the news came. And I was also taking a studio art course because in addition to languages, I minored in studio art, was a painter, a sculptor, because my father was a great craftsman. So I was keeping that interest going. And I remember the painting that I drew when I heard the news about it. It was an image, I don't think I have it anymore, but it was an image of great violence. And so I was very much moved by that and that stuck with me. So I think it was at that point that I decided to look into joining the Peace Corps, making some contribution, whatever I could. And somewhere in the world that, you know, I could learn.

[Assistant] Did you have any friends? Did you know people who had been in the Peace Corps? Or who were going to do this?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you're all on your own.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at Hamilton, well, when the news came, actually, I was in Canada because I was visiting friends in Montreal with two of my classmates when the news came. And I was also taking a studio art course because in addition to languages, I minored in studio art, was a painter, a sculptor, because my father was a great craftsman. So I was keeping that interest going. And I remember the painting that I drew when I heard the news about it. It was an image, I don't think I have it anymore, but it was an image of great violence. And so I was very much moved by that and that stuck with me. So I think it was at that point that I decided to look into joining the Peace Corps, making some contribution, whatever I could. And somewhere in the world that, you know, I could learn.

[Assistant] Did you have any friends? Did you know people who had been in the Peace Corps? Or who were going to do this?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you're all on your own.

[User] Yes, I was on my own. No, I went into it with very little knowledge or expectation.

[Assistant] So you filled out an application while you were still an undergraduate at Hamilton?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you're all on your own.

[User] Yes, I was on my own. No, I went into it with very little knowledge or expectation.

[Assistant] So you filled out an application while you were still an undergraduate at Hamilton?

[User] Yes. I think in that senior year, I don't remember when, but I seem to think it was kind of like early spring, maybe winter or early spring of ‘64.

[Assistant] Hoping to be able to do something the following fall.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think in that senior year, I don't remember when, but I seem to think it was kind of like early spring, maybe winter or early spring of ‘64.

[Assistant] Hoping to be able to do something the following fall.

[User] Exactly. And so I was accepted into the Peace Corps and was told that I would be going to Ghana because they had just set up a French language program in their schools. And since Ghana is itself surrounded by Francophone speaking countries, as is Nigeria.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And so that was the plan. But then about two weeks, a week or two weeks before we were to go to our training, which I think was going to take place in D.C., I'm not really sure. I don't remember now where I got word that, in fact, I wasn't going to Ghana. The program had been canceled by the Ghanaian government and that we were changing to Nigeria. So I had to look both of those places up on the map, okay? And that was fine. And that my training program would be at Columbia University, at Teachers College, and that would be our training and preparation and we'd head to Nigeria in the fall. So that was fine.

[Assistant] And so you tell your parents what you're planning to do. What was their reaction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. And so I was accepted into the Peace Corps and was told that I would be going to Ghana because they had just set up a French language program in their schools. And since Ghana is itself surrounded by Francophone speaking countries, as is Nigeria.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And so that was the plan. But then about two weeks, a week or two weeks before we were to go to our training, which I think was going to take place in D.C., I'm not really sure. I don't remember now where I got word that, in fact, I wasn't going to Ghana. The program had been canceled by the Ghanaian government and that we were changing to Nigeria. So I had to look both of those places up on the map, okay? And that was fine. And that my training program would be at Columbia University, at Teachers College, and that would be our training and preparation and we'd head to Nigeria in the fall. So that was fine.

[Assistant] And so you tell your parents what you're planning to do. What was their reaction?

[User] They were supportive. They said if this is what you want to do, we're fully in support of you. That's always been the case from my folks, never discouraging. And I think I thrive best when I have supportive energies around me.

[Assistant] And your friends? You're striking out on something so radically different from what they're choosing to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so that was the plan. But then about two weeks, a week or two weeks before we were to go to our training, which I think was going to take place in D.C., I'm not really sure. I don't remember now where I got word that, in fact, I wasn't going to Ghana. The program had been canceled by the Ghanaian government and that we were changing to Nigeria. So I had to look both of those places up on the map, okay? And that was fine. And that my training program would be at Columbia University, at Teachers College, and that would be our training and preparation and we'd head to Nigeria in the fall. So that was fine.

[Assistant] And so you tell your parents what you're planning to do. What was their reaction?

[User] They were supportive. They said if this is what you want to do, we're fully in support of you. That's always been the case from my folks, never discouraging. And I think I thrive best when I have supportive energies around me.

[Assistant] And your friends? You're striking out on something so radically different from what they're choosing to do.

[User] Well, my closest friends at college were also people who were not bent on the professions, of doctors or lawyers or business executives. My posse, my group of friends at Hamilton, were people who were interested in the arts and were interested in doing something slightly different, a little bit against the grain.

[Assistant] So they too would have been supportive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were supportive. They said if this is what you want to do, we're fully in support of you. That's always been the case from my folks, never discouraging. And I think I thrive best when I have supportive energies around me.

[Assistant] And your friends? You're striking out on something so radically different from what they're choosing to do.

[User] Well, my closest friends at college were also people who were not bent on the professions, of doctors or lawyers or business executives. My posse, my group of friends at Hamilton, were people who were interested in the arts and were interested in doing something slightly different, a little bit against the grain.

[Assistant] So they too would have been supportive.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or found what you're doing very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my closest friends at college were also people who were not bent on the professions, of doctors or lawyers or business executives. My posse, my group of friends at Hamilton, were people who were interested in the arts and were interested in doing something slightly different, a little bit against the grain.

[Assistant] So they too would have been supportive.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or found what you're doing very interesting.

[User] Yes, exactly. And the folks that were also majoring in French were, you know, interested in international affairs and in other cultures, in literature, in the arts, in the histories of other peoples. And that was where I felt most happy. So the Peace Corps was, you know, it was a kind of logical option for me at the time. And I was very happy that it was there because I also needed, I needed some time to decide what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Were you at all disappointed that you were being sent to an English speaking West African country instead of any one of those countries between Nigeria and Ghana or Cameroon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Or found what you're doing very interesting.

[User] Yes, exactly. And the folks that were also majoring in French were, you know, interested in international affairs and in other cultures, in literature, in the arts, in the histories of other peoples. And that was where I felt most happy. So the Peace Corps was, you know, it was a kind of logical option for me at the time. And I was very happy that it was there because I also needed, I needed some time to decide what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Were you at all disappointed that you were being sent to an English speaking West African country instead of any one of those countries between Nigeria and Ghana or Cameroon?

[User] No, not at all, because I thought my training or knowledge of French would be helpful to people who were interested in teaching and having it taught to the new generations. And I understood it as Nigeria's policy to try to foster a kind of Pan African union or community and language was going to facilitate that. And I felt that I could help in that goal, which I felt was important for Africa at this moment of independence.

[Assistant] So you don't travel across the country to do Peace Corps training. You're still in New York, although you're in Manhattan at Columbia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, exactly. And the folks that were also majoring in French were, you know, interested in international affairs and in other cultures, in literature, in the arts, in the histories of other peoples. And that was where I felt most happy. So the Peace Corps was, you know, it was a kind of logical option for me at the time. And I was very happy that it was there because I also needed, I needed some time to decide what I wanted to do.

[Assistant] Were you at all disappointed that you were being sent to an English speaking West African country instead of any one of those countries between Nigeria and Ghana or Cameroon?

[User] No, not at all, because I thought my training or knowledge of French would be helpful to people who were interested in teaching and having it taught to the new generations. And I understood it as Nigeria's policy to try to foster a kind of Pan African union or community and language was going to facilitate that. And I felt that I could help in that goal, which I felt was important for Africa at this moment of independence.

[Assistant] So you don't travel across the country to do Peace Corps training. You're still in New York, although you're in Manhattan at Columbia.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was that like when you first arrived? Did you have, was it a big training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not at all, because I thought my training or knowledge of French would be helpful to people who were interested in teaching and having it taught to the new generations. And I understood it as Nigeria's policy to try to foster a kind of Pan African union or community and language was going to facilitate that. And I felt that I could help in that goal, which I felt was important for Africa at this moment of independence.

[Assistant] So you don't travel across the country to do Peace Corps training. You're still in New York, although you're in Manhattan at Columbia.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was that like when you first arrived? Did you have, was it a big training group?

[User] It was. I don't know what the numbers were for Nigeria 11. You'll be able to find out. But it was a pretty large group and they were folks that were coming from all over the country, you know, and different universities. It was an education program. We were all pretty much going into secondary education or teacher training. Some people had more, maybe master's degrees or had certificates in education. And so some, yeah, some were teaching teachers. But I was not. And I knew pretty early on that I was going to be, I don't remember exactly when we were told our assignments, because those kept shifting. But I think I knew fairly early on that I was going to be going to southwestern Nigeria, to Yoruba country.

[Assistant] So were you being trained in the Yoruba language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And what was that like when you first arrived? Did you have, was it a big training group?

[User] It was. I don't know what the numbers were for Nigeria 11. You'll be able to find out. But it was a pretty large group and they were folks that were coming from all over the country, you know, and different universities. It was an education program. We were all pretty much going into secondary education or teacher training. Some people had more, maybe master's degrees or had certificates in education. And so some, yeah, some were teaching teachers. But I was not. And I knew pretty early on that I was going to be, I don't remember exactly when we were told our assignments, because those kept shifting. But I think I knew fairly early on that I was going to be going to southwestern Nigeria, to Yoruba country.

[Assistant] So were you being trained in the Yoruba language?

[User] Yes, we started Yoruba language studies done during the training program.

[Assistant] Were you in small groups for languages?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. I don't know what the numbers were for Nigeria 11. You'll be able to find out. But it was a pretty large group and they were folks that were coming from all over the country, you know, and different universities. It was an education program. We were all pretty much going into secondary education or teacher training. Some people had more, maybe master's degrees or had certificates in education. And so some, yeah, some were teaching teachers. But I was not. And I knew pretty early on that I was going to be, I don't remember exactly when we were told our assignments, because those kept shifting. But I think I knew fairly early on that I was going to be going to southwestern Nigeria, to Yoruba country.

[Assistant] So were you being trained in the Yoruba language?

[User] Yes, we started Yoruba language studies done during the training program.

[Assistant] Were you in small groups for languages?

[User] Yes. It wasn't intensive. It wasn't intensive enough because we were there. You know, we had lots of other things to do and New York City was a distraction.

[Assistant] Well, I suppose so, yeah. But of course, it's not only language that you’re studying, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we started Yoruba language studies done during the training program.

[Assistant] Were you in small groups for languages?

[User] Yes. It wasn't intensive. It wasn't intensive enough because we were there. You know, we had lots of other things to do and New York City was a distraction.

[Assistant] Well, I suppose so, yeah. But of course, it's not only language that you’re studying, right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But did you find that the language instruction was, although maybe there wasn't enough of it, was it good?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It wasn't intensive. It wasn't intensive enough because we were there. You know, we had lots of other things to do and New York City was a distraction.

[Assistant] Well, I suppose so, yeah. But of course, it's not only language that you’re studying, right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But did you find that the language instruction was, although maybe there wasn't enough of it, was it good?

[User] It was good. It was good for what it was, for the short time that we had it. And I enjoyed learning languages. That was something that came with. So that was, I appreciated it very much.

[Assistant] You had native speakers of Yoruba?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But did you find that the language instruction was, although maybe there wasn't enough of it, was it good?

[User] It was good. It was good for what it was, for the short time that we had it. And I enjoyed learning languages. That was something that came with. So that was, I appreciated it very much.

[Assistant] You had native speakers of Yoruba?

[User] Yes, we did and we had audio tapes I think. There was a Yoruba language program that had already been developed through the Peace Corps. And the training staff were great. In fact, I reconnected with two of the people on the staff who were themselves Peace Corps volunteers in Ghana, I think, and Sierra Leone earlier on, early groups.

[Assistant] Do you remember their names?