[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they did have classes that we would attend. There was a local person, Antonio Casa Solo was his name and he was very big in the radio schools that they had at that time. Radio schools would teach people who lived too far away to go to a regular school or academy.

[Assistant] Oh. Yeah.

[User] And so they would use the radio to, to teach and offer certain lessons. And that was Antonio Casa Solo. So he was just such a nice man and very good teacher and he liked working with Peace Corps volunteers. We always felt like we were doing something good for Honduras when he was around. He was very, uh, very uplifting. So, yeah, we would get away. I remember we went to El Salvador one time for a vacation and that was a real, oh, it was just like amazing. We were sitting on the sandy beach in the morning and we saw this sort of like a mirage. It was a woman coming and she had fresh oysters.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.

[User] I know. So, you know, sprinkled in with kind of the, the oddness of being so isolated. We also got to go on trips. And then I even told you this part, maybe Joe told you that his parents came to visit us in their Airstream trailer?

[Assistant] Yes. In his interview, he talked about that. Why don't you talk about what that was like for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so they would use the radio to, to teach and offer certain lessons. And that was Antonio Casa Solo. So he was just such a nice man and very good teacher and he liked working with Peace Corps volunteers. We always felt like we were doing something good for Honduras when he was around. He was very, uh, very uplifting. So, yeah, we would get away. I remember we went to El Salvador one time for a vacation and that was a real, oh, it was just like amazing. We were sitting on the sandy beach in the morning and we saw this sort of like a mirage. It was a woman coming and she had fresh oysters.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness.

[User] I know. So, you know, sprinkled in with kind of the, the oddness of being so isolated. We also got to go on trips. And then I even told you this part, maybe Joe told you that his parents came to visit us in their Airstream trailer?

[Assistant] Yes. In his interview, he talked about that. Why don't you talk about what that was like for you?

[User] Well, I was nervous because, you know, we had not spent any of our married life around them. So this is the first time they'd seen our little home or our little place. And Joe's dad came in. He looked around, he says, well, it's clean. And that made me feel really good. Because at least it was clean. And they probably stayed for one night. And then we took off and we went to Mexico together.

[Assistant] In their Airstream?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know. So, you know, sprinkled in with kind of the, the oddness of being so isolated. We also got to go on trips. And then I even told you this part, maybe Joe told you that his parents came to visit us in their Airstream trailer?

[Assistant] Yes. In his interview, he talked about that. Why don't you talk about what that was like for you?

[User] Well, I was nervous because, you know, we had not spent any of our married life around them. So this is the first time they'd seen our little home or our little place. And Joe's dad came in. He looked around, he says, well, it's clean. And that made me feel really good. Because at least it was clean. And they probably stayed for one night. And then we took off and we went to Mexico together.

[Assistant] In their Airstream?

[User] In the Airstream, which was very nice.

[Assistant] Was there room in the Airstream for all of you to sleep?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was nervous because, you know, we had not spent any of our married life around them. So this is the first time they'd seen our little home or our little place. And Joe's dad came in. He looked around, he says, well, it's clean. And that made me feel really good. Because at least it was clean. And they probably stayed for one night. And then we took off and we went to Mexico together.

[Assistant] In their Airstream?

[User] In the Airstream, which was very nice.

[Assistant] Was there room in the Airstream for all of you to sleep?

[User] Just barely. I don't know if Joe told you this, but one time we were in the car, all in the car, and I was like, oh, I'm so tired. Joe's like, I am so tired too. So we went back in the Airstream and I'm sure they knew. It was a little bit of a hoax, but it was a little bit of privacy. And it was really nice to be in this, you know, it was the first privacy that we probably had in a long time. So that was nice. And we went to Teotihuacán.

[Assistant] In Mexico City.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So every little bit of time that we spent with them was pretty memorable.

[Assistant] Oh, sure.

[User] Because we did not have a long, a long time to spend with them.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Like we, well. Our second daughter was born. Our third daughter was born just at the point when his mom was dying and his father had already passed away. So.

[Assistant] So you had that really good time with them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because we did not have a long, a long time to spend with them.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Like we, well. Our second daughter was born. Our third daughter was born just at the point when his mom was dying and his father had already passed away. So.

[Assistant] So you had that really good time with them.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You were taking a break. And then after your trip with Joe's parents to Mexico, you went back to Honduras to continue back to your village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You were taking a break. And then after your trip with Joe's parents to Mexico, you went back to Honduras to continue back to your village?

[User] Yeah, actually, we must have taken a bus back to Goascoran.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they went on.

[Assistant] Because they had a pretty long drive. They drove down from Peoria?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, actually, we must have taken a bus back to Goascoran.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they went on.

[Assistant] Because they had a pretty long drive. They drove down from Peoria?

[User] Yeah, that was their thing.

[Assistant] Crossing Mexico and Guatemala to get to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that was their thing.

[Assistant] Crossing Mexico and Guatemala to get to you.

[User] Actually, Jo's mom did that again after she was a widow. She went to the Panama Canal by herself with a Wally Byam Caravan. That's when Airstreamers get together.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] But.

[Assistant] And she drove all that way herself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] My goodness.

[User] Well, she was the one who learned to fly when she was 55.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They also had gone to Alaska on the Alcan Highway when it was real rough.

[Assistant] They were real travelers. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, she was the one who learned to fly when she was 55.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They also had gone to Alaska on the Alcan Highway when it was real rough.

[Assistant] They were real travelers. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. And they loved road trips. You know, that was their preferred way to travel.

[Assistant] So you had, it seems uniquely wonderful that you had a chance to have a little bit of family time there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They also had gone to Alaska on the Alcan Highway when it was real rough.

[Assistant] They were real travelers. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. And they loved road trips. You know, that was their preferred way to travel.

[Assistant] So you had, it seems uniquely wonderful that you had a chance to have a little bit of family time there.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you, uh, talk about your contacts with other Peace Corps volunteers. You had been part of a group of what did you say, 50 or 60 people in your training group. After deselection that number was a little bit smaller. But then when you got to Honduras, you were all, you were all spread out in different parts of the country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And they loved road trips. You know, that was their preferred way to travel.

[Assistant] So you had, it seems uniquely wonderful that you had a chance to have a little bit of family time there.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you, uh, talk about your contacts with other Peace Corps volunteers. You had been part of a group of what did you say, 50 or 60 people in your training group. After deselection that number was a little bit smaller. But then when you got to Honduras, you were all, you were all spread out in different parts of the country.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to see those people again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Occasionally. And sometimes they came to visit. You know, they would just take time off on their own. They take their own R and R and they would come and visit us.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I remember Peter Cooey coming. And Ed Arnolds coming. And Ann O'Hara. There were probably others, I just, I don't.

[Assistant] Jim Pickard?

[User] Jim, we went to see because he wasn't too far away, so we would kind of go over there.

[Assistant] You'd go to Jim's place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jim, we went to see because he wasn't too far away, so we would kind of go over there.

[Assistant] You'd go to Jim's place?

[User] Yeah, I got to know Jim better when we came back to the States. I didn't, I didn't really know him as well. And he was in a different training group than we were.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] That was the thing. There were so many training groups at that time. There were over, I think, 250 volunteers in Honduras at that time.

[Assistant] No kidding, in that tiny country? Wow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the thing. There were so many training groups at that time. There were over, I think, 250 volunteers in Honduras at that time.

[Assistant] No kidding, in that tiny country? Wow.

[User] They were everywhere.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, um, and we did have. Oh, this is a story. I just. I can't believe it happened, but we had a person, Charlie Thomas, who I think had worked for the CIA, and he was one of the in-country directors. He was a very quiet, reserved redheaded person. He was married and lived in Teguc and, um, his wife. She was, I thought she was strange. She invited us for dinner. I think there were six of us, six different Peace Corps volunteers, and we kind of dressed up to go to their house for dinner because it was a special occasion. And we were sitting at this table for quite a long time and there was some kind of, you know, to-do going on in the kitchen. Of course, all the leaders, the, uh, what were they called? Our host country leaders. I can't think of their names. Like Charlie Thomas and Ray Swan and.

[Assistant] They were Peace Corps people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They lived very nicely.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] They had servants and all this stuff. Okay. So we're sitting at this table. And finally the soup is delivered and it's really good soup. We're enjoying this so much. But there was lots of silverware on the table and, you know, it was set in a pretty formal way.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And Joe, I remember Joe asked for more soup, and that was a good thing because there was never any more food.

[Assistant] Oh, that was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had servants and all this stuff. Okay. So we're sitting at this table. And finally the soup is delivered and it's really good soup. We're enjoying this so much. But there was lots of silverware on the table and, you know, it was set in a pretty formal way.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And Joe, I remember Joe asked for more soup, and that was a good thing because there was never any more food.

[Assistant] Oh, that was it?

[User] That was it. Something had gone wrong. I don't know.

[Assistant] Something in the kitchen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was it. Something had gone wrong. I don't know.

[Assistant] Something in the kitchen.

[User] But it was never explained.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And Charlie, whose house it was, he got up and left the table. I think it was even before we.

[Assistant] He was the in-country director?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was never explained.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And Charlie, whose house it was, he got up and left the table. I think it was even before we.

[Assistant] He was the in-country director?

[User] Yeah. He was one of the directors. Like maybe he was this second in line. Tony Duran was the main director. Tony Duran. Anyway. So Charlie got up and left and went and sat in another room. I think he's reading a newspaper or a book. His wife never offered an explanation of why there was never another course delivered.

[Assistant] Oh. And here we have hungry Peace Corps volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were like, what the hell? This isn't right. So we had popcorn. I remember they did offer some popcorn.

[Assistant] No dessert?

[User] No, I don't remember dessert. Anything. It was just the oddest thing. It was like bait and switch.

[Assistant] My goodness.

[User] You know, you're invited to this dinner, and there's really nothing but soup. It was a good thing. I remember thinking, Joe is so smart. He doesn't hold back. He asked for his second bowl.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And he got it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't remember dessert. Anything. It was just the oddest thing. It was like bait and switch.

[Assistant] My goodness.

[User] You know, you're invited to this dinner, and there's really nothing but soup. It was a good thing. I remember thinking, Joe is so smart. He doesn't hold back. He asked for his second bowl.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And he got it.

[User] Yeah. But we did have training in country. I mean, it wasn't like there was no more training once we got there. And that was always fun. It was mostly people coming from everywhere, from the south part of Honduras anyway. So.

[Assistant] In your, in your second year there, did you find that you were? Um. What would, how would you describe the difference between your last few months there, or your last year there, and the beginning? Did you find yourself more effective somehow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had a choice of either leaving or.

[Assistant] Leaving permanently?

[User] Well, no, not necessarily that. But he said the problem was that they had called to check about my dad because they'd heard that he was sick, but in fact he was at work that day. So that kind of stopped all of the momentum towards getting me a ride back to Peoria.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And he said, now you can go through Mexico. But if they check your passport when you come back and they see that you've been out of Honduras. Yeah. You will be, you will be let go.

[Assistant] You won't be allowed to come back in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no, not necessarily that. But he said the problem was that they had called to check about my dad because they'd heard that he was sick, but in fact he was at work that day. So that kind of stopped all of the momentum towards getting me a ride back to Peoria.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] And he said, now you can go through Mexico. But if they check your passport when you come back and they see that you've been out of Honduras. Yeah. You will be, you will be let go.

[Assistant] You won't be allowed to come back in?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Peace Corps would not accept you back if you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he said, now you can go through Mexico. But if they check your passport when you come back and they see that you've been out of Honduras. Yeah. You will be, you will be let go.

[Assistant] You won't be allowed to come back in?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Peace Corps would not accept you back if you?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Oh, so if you went to visit your father, you'd be going against their wishes, as it were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Peace Corps would not accept you back if you?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Oh, so if you went to visit your father, you'd be going against their wishes, as it were.

[User] Exactly. And they didn't see the great need.

[Assistant] Because your father was at work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Oh, so if you went to visit your father, you'd be going against their wishes, as it were.

[User] Exactly. And they didn't see the great need.

[Assistant] Because your father was at work.

[User] Right. He worked until the day before he died.

[Assistant] Yeah. And they didn't, they didn't consider that somebody would be so dedicated to their work that they would be dying and still go to work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. And they didn't see the great need.

[Assistant] Because your father was at work.

[User] Right. He worked until the day before he died.

[Assistant] Yeah. And they didn't, they didn't consider that somebody would be so dedicated to their work that they would be dying and still go to work.

[User] The budget must have been very, very tight. So my father died. So then Joe and I got, of course, we got tickets to go back.

[Assistant] For the funeral. But not to say goodbye to your dad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. He worked until the day before he died.

[Assistant] Yeah. And they didn't, they didn't consider that somebody would be so dedicated to their work that they would be dying and still go to work.

[User] The budget must have been very, very tight. So my father died. So then Joe and I got, of course, we got tickets to go back.

[Assistant] For the funeral. But not to say goodbye to your dad.

[User] No, he was already gone.

[Assistant] Oh, so sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he was already gone.

[Assistant] Oh, so sorry.

[User] Yeah, I think it was a bit of a rift between my mother and me too, because, of course, she was left, you know, as a widow with his younger kids still at home and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] She was only 59 when my dad died. And, um, there was a little bitterness there and, anyway. It wasn't a good situation. But soon after that I became pregnant, which is very common when there's a death in the family. And the reason I became pregnant is that I had problems with cramping with my IUD so I had it removed and we were going to use other birth control. Well, it never happened. I got pregnant. So then.

[Assistant] But you went, you went back. After you came home for your father's funeral, you went back to Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think it was a bit of a rift between my mother and me too, because, of course, she was left, you know, as a widow with his younger kids still at home and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] She was only 59 when my dad died. And, um, there was a little bitterness there and, anyway. It wasn't a good situation. But soon after that I became pregnant, which is very common when there's a death in the family. And the reason I became pregnant is that I had problems with cramping with my IUD so I had it removed and we were going to use other birth control. Well, it never happened. I got pregnant. So then.

[Assistant] But you went, you went back. After you came home for your father's funeral, you went back to Honduras?

[User] Right. It was March. We went back in I think mid-March or late March. And then we spent April, May, June. And I think we went home in July or August because Joe was accepted at the University of Chicago Law School.

[Assistant] Okay, and he had to be back for the start of school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was only 59 when my dad died. And, um, there was a little bitterness there and, anyway. It wasn't a good situation. But soon after that I became pregnant, which is very common when there's a death in the family. And the reason I became pregnant is that I had problems with cramping with my IUD so I had it removed and we were going to use other birth control. Well, it never happened. I got pregnant. So then.

[Assistant] But you went, you went back. After you came home for your father's funeral, you went back to Honduras?

[User] Right. It was March. We went back in I think mid-March or late March. And then we spent April, May, June. And I think we went home in July or August because Joe was accepted at the University of Chicago Law School.

[Assistant] Okay, and he had to be back for the start of school.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And by then, you knew you were pregnant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. It was March. We went back in I think mid-March or late March. And then we spent April, May, June. And I think we went home in July or August because Joe was accepted at the University of Chicago Law School.

[Assistant] Okay, and he had to be back for the start of school.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And by then, you knew you were pregnant?

[User] I was pregnant, yeah. So there you have it. A lot of drama in two years time. It was so much.

[Assistant] No kidding. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And by then, you knew you were pregnant?

[User] I was pregnant, yeah. So there you have it. A lot of drama in two years time. It was so much.

[Assistant] No kidding. Yes.

[User] You know, happening in two years time.

[Assistant] Yes. What was it like leaving Goascoran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was pregnant, yeah. So there you have it. A lot of drama in two years time. It was so much.

[Assistant] No kidding. Yes.

[User] You know, happening in two years time.

[Assistant] Yes. What was it like leaving Goascoran?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Was there some sort of gathering of local people to say goodbye?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, happening in two years time.

[Assistant] Yes. What was it like leaving Goascoran?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Was there some sort of gathering of local people to say goodbye?

[User] I don't remember that. I mean, I'm sure there was. But I think, um, you know, it was just sort of like, dang, I've got to go home. I have to have this baby. You know, my husband has to get into school. I think we were ready to go. I think, you know, there were ups and downs and moods. I think Joe got a little depressed at times. We both did. You know, it was kind of depressing.

[Assistant] Well, you're in a very hard, a hard situation there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Was there some sort of gathering of local people to say goodbye?

[User] I don't remember that. I mean, I'm sure there was. But I think, um, you know, it was just sort of like, dang, I've got to go home. I have to have this baby. You know, my husband has to get into school. I think we were ready to go. I think, you know, there were ups and downs and moods. I think Joe got a little depressed at times. We both did. You know, it was kind of depressing.

[Assistant] Well, you're in a very hard, a hard situation there.

[User] Yeah, we were isolated. There was a lot of, uh, you know, it just, it seemed like there was so much that needed to be done. And here we were, clueless, like in terms of big organizations. Or any kind of major change. It was just.

[Assistant] On a smaller, smaller level making some changes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember that. I mean, I'm sure there was. But I think, um, you know, it was just sort of like, dang, I've got to go home. I have to have this baby. You know, my husband has to get into school. I think we were ready to go. I think, you know, there were ups and downs and moods. I think Joe got a little depressed at times. We both did. You know, it was kind of depressing.

[Assistant] Well, you're in a very hard, a hard situation there.

[User] Yeah, we were isolated. There was a lot of, uh, you know, it just, it seemed like there was so much that needed to be done. And here we were, clueless, like in terms of big organizations. Or any kind of major change. It was just.

[Assistant] On a smaller, smaller level making some changes.

[User] I wouldn't trade it for the world. It was a great experience. And of course, you know, every experience could always be better, I guess. I guess the Peace Corps organization could have been better. Because I do think they kind of just kissed us goodbye and said, have fun.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like you had a whole lot of either direction or support from Peace Corps when you were out there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we were isolated. There was a lot of, uh, you know, it just, it seemed like there was so much that needed to be done. And here we were, clueless, like in terms of big organizations. Or any kind of major change. It was just.

[Assistant] On a smaller, smaller level making some changes.

[User] I wouldn't trade it for the world. It was a great experience. And of course, you know, every experience could always be better, I guess. I guess the Peace Corps organization could have been better. Because I do think they kind of just kissed us goodbye and said, have fun.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like you had a whole lot of either direction or support from Peace Corps when you were out there.

[User] No.

[Assistant] But you were young and flexible and creative. You found things to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wouldn't trade it for the world. It was a great experience. And of course, you know, every experience could always be better, I guess. I guess the Peace Corps organization could have been better. Because I do think they kind of just kissed us goodbye and said, have fun.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like you had a whole lot of either direction or support from Peace Corps when you were out there.

[User] No.

[Assistant] But you were young and flexible and creative. You found things to do.

[User] Yeah. We liked it. I can remember, this is a pretty, uh. Whenever I walk outside at night and the moon is out, I remember that we would get dropped off on the Pan American Highway and I think it was a kilometer and a half or two kilometers to our village.

[Assistant] From the Pan American Highway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. We liked it. I can remember, this is a pretty, uh. Whenever I walk outside at night and the moon is out, I remember that we would get dropped off on the Pan American Highway and I think it was a kilometer and a half or two kilometers to our village.

[Assistant] From the Pan American Highway.

[User] Yeah. And it was kind of a rocky road, as I remember. But when there was moonlight, it was pretty easy to see. But that's how we would get home.

[Assistant] You'd walk?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You'd walk home from the Pan-American Highway. Yeah. And then to get to Tegucigalpa, you'd walk back that mile and a half or so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And it was kind of a rocky road, as I remember. But when there was moonlight, it was pretty easy to see. But that's how we would get home.

[Assistant] You'd walk?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You'd walk home from the Pan-American Highway. Yeah. And then to get to Tegucigalpa, you'd walk back that mile and a half or so?

[User] I think so. I think, though, sometimes there were, there were, the busito would come to your door because you'd have a suitcase or something.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So even leaving you had, you had to pack up, you had to decide what to take with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You'd walk home from the Pan-American Highway. Yeah. And then to get to Tegucigalpa, you'd walk back that mile and a half or so?

[User] I think so. I think, though, sometimes there were, there were, the busito would come to your door because you'd have a suitcase or something.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So even leaving you had, you had to pack up, you had to decide what to take with you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] All you'd accumulated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] All you'd accumulated.

[User] We didn't really collect a lot of stuff. We had a few things. I remember a fishnet that we thought was so pretty. One of those real fine fishnets. We used that as wall decoration. Um, hats. Bags.

[Assistant] Music?

[User] You mean like CDs?

[Assistant] Like CDs or some, whatever they had then? Cassette tapes or something. Or 45 records of local music.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn't really collect a lot of stuff. We had a few things. I remember a fishnet that we thought was so pretty. One of those real fine fishnets. We used that as wall decoration. Um, hats. Bags.

[Assistant] Music?

[User] You mean like CDs?

[Assistant] Like CDs or some, whatever they had then? Cassette tapes or something. Or 45 records of local music.

[User] I'd have to look in our, we still have our trunk.

[Assistant] You do? You have your Peace Corps trunk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean like CDs?

[Assistant] Like CDs or some, whatever they had then? Cassette tapes or something. Or 45 records of local music.

[User] I'd have to look in our, we still have our trunk.

[Assistant] You do? You have your Peace Corps trunk?

[User] Yeah. It's in storage now, so that every month. Um, no, I don't remember that.

[Assistant] You get back to the United States, you have a baby. You somehow get yourself back to school and finish your undergraduate degree, go on to get a master's degree. And you spent several years teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd have to look in our, we still have our trunk.

[Assistant] You do? You have your Peace Corps trunk?

[User] Yeah. It's in storage now, so that every month. Um, no, I don't remember that.

[Assistant] You get back to the United States, you have a baby. You somehow get yourself back to school and finish your undergraduate degree, go on to get a master's degree. And you spent several years teaching?

[User] My, part of my training at Erikson Institute was supervised teaching in different centers. And I think I had three different posts during that two year time and closely supervised again with lots of paperwork and. Uh. And that was a good experience. And the neat thing was that when we moved to Florida many years later and I applied to be a certified kindergarten teacher here. The usual protocol is that you go back to school. And it's at USF, which was far from where, you know, it would have been a very big sacrifice for me to go back to school for a couple of classes. It would just have been like maybe 4 hours worth of classes. And amazingly, while I was talking to the person who was looking at my paperwork, she says, oh, we never certify anyone without going back to school, especially since you're out of state, blah, blah, blah. And she answered the phone and said, oh, really? Oh. Oh. Okay. Oh, all right! So I got certified without going back to school, which was a huge relief to me.

[Assistant] But they recognized that you had, you had done all this work in the Peace Corps with, you had really set up your own preschool. You had all this time at the Erikson Institute. You were really very qualified and also experienced. So you put in how many years here in Tampa teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It's in storage now, so that every month. Um, no, I don't remember that.

[Assistant] You get back to the United States, you have a baby. You somehow get yourself back to school and finish your undergraduate degree, go on to get a master's degree. And you spent several years teaching?

[User] My, part of my training at Erikson Institute was supervised teaching in different centers. And I think I had three different posts during that two year time and closely supervised again with lots of paperwork and. Uh. And that was a good experience. And the neat thing was that when we moved to Florida many years later and I applied to be a certified kindergarten teacher here. The usual protocol is that you go back to school. And it's at USF, which was far from where, you know, it would have been a very big sacrifice for me to go back to school for a couple of classes. It would just have been like maybe 4 hours worth of classes. And amazingly, while I was talking to the person who was looking at my paperwork, she says, oh, we never certify anyone without going back to school, especially since you're out of state, blah, blah, blah. And she answered the phone and said, oh, really? Oh. Oh. Okay. Oh, all right! So I got certified without going back to school, which was a huge relief to me.

[Assistant] But they recognized that you had, you had done all this work in the Peace Corps with, you had really set up your own preschool. You had all this time at the Erikson Institute. You were really very qualified and also experienced. So you put in how many years here in Tampa teaching?

[User] 20.

[Assistant] 20 years as a kindergarten teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My, part of my training at Erikson Institute was supervised teaching in different centers. And I think I had three different posts during that two year time and closely supervised again with lots of paperwork and. Uh. And that was a good experience. And the neat thing was that when we moved to Florida many years later and I applied to be a certified kindergarten teacher here. The usual protocol is that you go back to school. And it's at USF, which was far from where, you know, it would have been a very big sacrifice for me to go back to school for a couple of classes. It would just have been like maybe 4 hours worth of classes. And amazingly, while I was talking to the person who was looking at my paperwork, she says, oh, we never certify anyone without going back to school, especially since you're out of state, blah, blah, blah. And she answered the phone and said, oh, really? Oh. Oh. Okay. Oh, all right! So I got certified without going back to school, which was a huge relief to me.

[Assistant] But they recognized that you had, you had done all this work in the Peace Corps with, you had really set up your own preschool. You had all this time at the Erikson Institute. You were really very qualified and also experienced. So you put in how many years here in Tampa teaching?

[User] 20.

[Assistant] 20 years as a kindergarten teacher?

[User] Yeah. And I had a lot of Spanish speaking students. So that was another thing.

[Assistant] You had the Spanish from Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 20.

[Assistant] 20 years as a kindergarten teacher?

[User] Yeah. And I had a lot of Spanish speaking students. So that was another thing.

[Assistant] You had the Spanish from Peace Corps.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So anything else you'd like to add?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well. I think if anybody has the desire to go abroad and do some kind of service to just go for it. Do it while you're young because it's harder to do. I know some people do it when they're older, but for me, I would never leave for two years because of my grandchildren.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] So, do it. It's, it's a wonderful. It's like a mind blowing experience.

[Assistant] Clearly.

[User] So I'm all for it.

[Assistant] Thank you, Bev.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To come back to that question, obviously materials are a primary technology for most applications, and so much of the technology that was developed through the Air Force programs got used in Air Force vehicles as well as in some of NASA’s vehicles, including the [Space] Shuttle. But we were not involved in the direct design of the vehicles or their testing. We were rather, I guess you’d say, consultants about the choice of materials.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of those discussions about the Manned Orbiting Lab with the Air Force or talking about any of that at the beginning?

[User] No, I really don’t. Nothing comes to mind in the specific that would be, I think, of interest and use.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about when you moved to the Associate Administrator position with NASA in 1974 in the Office of Aeronautics and Space Technology. If you can, just talk about that position and what that involved and some of the things you were working on at that point.

[User] The Deputy Administrator was in charge of, if you will, managing through the Centers, not directly out of NASA Headquarters [Washington, DC], but through the Centers the science and technology programs of the agency, which were in various technologies, not just in materials but in propulsion, avionics and other technologies. That was the responsibility of that Deputy Administrator to manage that spectrum of activities called science and technology.

[Assistant] Did you have a lot of interface with the other Centers? You managed all the Centers. Did you visit those Centers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, and it interfaced with a bunch of bright technical people and much more at a technology and a technical level. Not that there aren’t politics involved. By politics, I mean you have to defend budgets; you have to get your funding from Congress. That takes some level of political astuteness to do that. But there was a lot more content, technical content to the position at NASA than there was in the position I left in the Air Force.

[Assistant] Were you involved in trying to get the funding for your area?

[User] Yes. You are the person who’s responsible for every year designing the program or redesigning it or redirecting it, depending on what the requirements are, of laying out the funding requirements for it and defending it within NASA proper, which is to say with the Administrator of NASA and with the other Associate Administrators who were doing the same thing for their areas. Out of that comes finally the budget for the agency, for NASA as an agency, up to being called up to Congress maybe when there were questions about your particular area. So there’s a good deal of political activity. You had to be reasonably politically astute, but I think the work in the Deputy Administrator’s position had a much higher technical content, and for that reason for me was a fun time.

[Assistant] The Administrator at the time was James [C.] Fletcher.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What was your relationship like with him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know what NASA does today, but I know what we did. I don’t know quite how to express it, but I don’t think I ever felt like that program was my program, but it was the country’s program, and they needed to know as much as we had time to share with them about the program. Most of us, I know Jim Fletcher and Bob Frosch and I, and George Low before that, used to spend a lot of time talking to various groups around the country, from schoolchildren to business groups to whatever, about NASA and about the program and where it stands, so they felt some ownership. I’m not sure what we feel today. We don’t know what there is to own. What is there to own? Well, heavy-lift launch vehicle. Yeah. What is that? Who knows? I don’t know. I’m a little bit at sea at the moment, as I think a lot of people are, about what we can pin our hat on for the next generation. We’ll see.

[Assistant] Before that launch, they had the approach and landing tests out at Edwards.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Did you see any of those, or what are your memories of that?

[User] Oh, yes. Well, it’s an interesting—see, you’re talking to a technocrat, so the things that might interest me, you’d say, “Oh, come on.”

[Assistant] No, we want to hear what interests you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jim Beggs. Jim was in General Dynamics. Jim had a position at General Dynamics, and I joined General Dynamics after he left as Vice President for Science and Technology and went on out to set up the Space Systems Division in San Diego [California] and to commercialize the Atlas as a launch vehicle, which it still is being used as such. So, small world, small community. That’s pretty much the life story of yours truly.

[Assistant] Talk about the launch real quick for STS-1. In Hans Mark’s book, he quoted you as saying, “We’re number one again,” when the launch went off.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that day?

[User] Well, you get carried away. You know how it is. But let me tell you, it doesn’t matter how much you know, but when, as you’ve seen these launches, you know, it goes up and then it translates, turns, so that the Orbiter is really underneath and the external tanks up top. I thought when that thing started to rotate, I forgot it was supposed to do that, and I thought, “Oh, my god, what’s it doing?” Then I thought, “Oh, that’s right. It’s supposed to do that.”\n\n It was a good time and I really felt most proud of all the people, and I mean not just the NASA people, because there were an awful lot of industry people that contributed in many, many ways, but I was really proud for them. I had a few thoughts about what if it fails. I’m not a pessimist, but you have to think about how will you disport yourself if, in fact, it turns out not to be a success or successful as you might hope it would be. But that was all a waste of time. Somebody said, “Every bit of worrying is a waste of imagination.” So I wasted some imagination, I guess, worrying about that, but, fortunately, I didn’t have to.

[Assistant] It was a good moment, I’m sure, watching that first one go off.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that day?

[User] Well, you get carried away. You know how it is. But let me tell you, it doesn’t matter how much you know, but when, as you’ve seen these launches, you know, it goes up and then it translates, turns, so that the Orbiter is really underneath and the external tanks up top. I thought when that thing started to rotate, I forgot it was supposed to do that, and I thought, “Oh, my god, what’s it doing?” Then I thought, “Oh, that’s right. It’s supposed to do that.”\n\n It was a good time and I really felt most proud of all the people, and I mean not just the NASA people, because there were an awful lot of industry people that contributed in many, many ways, but I was really proud for them. I had a few thoughts about what if it fails. I’m not a pessimist, but you have to think about how will you disport yourself if, in fact, it turns out not to be a success or successful as you might hope it would be. But that was all a waste of time. Somebody said, “Every bit of worrying is a waste of imagination.” So I wasted some imagination, I guess, worrying about that, but, fortunately, I didn’t have to.

[Assistant] It was a good moment, I’m sure, watching that first one go off.

[User] Oh, yes, it really was. We’d gone a long time without any major successes in the space program, although some of the science activities had gone on. I remember the Viking Landers, which I found to be very, very interesting, but aren’t quite the eye-catcher that flying people in space is. There’s no question that you need to put people there to really get the attention of the public, certainly.

[Assistant] One of the things that I wanted to talk about before we got off of that time period was in July of ’79, we were talking about people’s perceptions of NASA, and Skylab reentered the Earth’s atmosphere.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not going to tell any stories out of school, but Tom [Thomas L.] Moser I give credit for setting up this last encounter here, and also I should say Charlie Bolden supported the Ham and Eggs Society group in terms of viewing the last launch. Many of them are not with us. Walt [Walter C.] Williams is gone. I can’t recall the number of people who have passed on. Certainly, give it another ten years; they’ll probably all be gone except for a few of the young bucks who will still be around. But, no, I don’t have any stories. I’d better keep to myself about that.

[Assistant] What’s the common thread with all of you?

[User] I think we all set that date two years in advance and then set about to make it happen at the lowest risk we could, and it was a lot of work to be done at Marshall and at JSC and in the industry and down at KSC. The facilities weren’t even complete down here to accommodate the launch. So I think it’s almost unbelievable that viewing the workload that was in front of this team of people, that they could sit there two years in advance and set a date and then make it happen. We had an unforeseen software glitch, which if we had shut down and cranked up again would probably have gone away, but that’s not the way NASA works. So we said, “We’re going to find out why it shut down,” and the Johnson team, simulator team out there did find out. I don’t know that that answers your question.

[Assistant] How important was it for this group to have someone in your position to be part of that decision? Because you had to support that date, Headquarters had to say, “Yes, we’ll support that date,” because as you mentioned, you had to go defend the program in front of Congress to answer those questions. You bought into it just as much. You had confidence in them.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] And they must have had confidence in you that you would support them. So you put all those ham and eggs in one basket.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] And they must have had confidence in you that you would support them. So you put all those ham and eggs in one basket.

[User] Make an omelet pretty quick, huh?\n\n I would have to say that the fact that I accepted, because I left the room and I said, “You guys hammer away on this thing, without my being present, and then I’ll come back and we’ll talk about the date.” I think the fact that I accepted that date without saying, “Oh, well, did you consider this?” was a display of confidence in this group, that there was no other better way to demonstrate than to say, “Okay, you believe it, I believe it.”\n\n It certainly made congressional interface easier for me, but that wasn’t entirely what I had in mind. It was a massive research and development program that rolled on and on and on and on, and the Congress said, “That’s wonderful, but when are we going to launch?”\n\n I think they had confidence in me, but they had confidence because I had confidence in them, and they were just a bright group of people who worked hard and came up with the right date, right answer.

[Assistant] That was my last question. I just wanted to ask about your thoughts about that brain trust of men.

[User] Well, yes, and, you know, there wasn’t a woman in there, and that’s a tragedy. Here I used to go around the country and I’d say, “Look what we did. We put a man on the Moon and we brought him back safely. Isn’t that wonderful?” Oh, everybody clapped, clap, clap, clap, clap. I said, “Do you realize we did that without 70 percent of the intellect of this country? We never even used it. We didn’t use any females. Minorities weren’t in the picture. So whatever you think that is, 70 percent or whatever, that’s what we accomplished. Can you imagine what we could do if we could get it all together?” I still believe that today.

[Assistant] I do too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Make an omelet pretty quick, huh?\n\n I would have to say that the fact that I accepted, because I left the room and I said, “You guys hammer away on this thing, without my being present, and then I’ll come back and we’ll talk about the date.” I think the fact that I accepted that date without saying, “Oh, well, did you consider this?” was a display of confidence in this group, that there was no other better way to demonstrate than to say, “Okay, you believe it, I believe it.”\n\n It certainly made congressional interface easier for me, but that wasn’t entirely what I had in mind. It was a massive research and development program that rolled on and on and on and on, and the Congress said, “That’s wonderful, but when are we going to launch?”\n\n I think they had confidence in me, but they had confidence because I had confidence in them, and they were just a bright group of people who worked hard and came up with the right date, right answer.

[Assistant] That was my last question. I just wanted to ask about your thoughts about that brain trust of men.

[User] Well, yes, and, you know, there wasn’t a woman in there, and that’s a tragedy. Here I used to go around the country and I’d say, “Look what we did. We put a man on the Moon and we brought him back safely. Isn’t that wonderful?” Oh, everybody clapped, clap, clap, clap, clap. I said, “Do you realize we did that without 70 percent of the intellect of this country? We never even used it. We didn’t use any females. Minorities weren’t in the picture. So whatever you think that is, 70 percent or whatever, that’s what we accomplished. Can you imagine what we could do if we could get it all together?” I still believe that today.

[Assistant] I do too.

[User] Do you?

[Assistant]
I do.

Yes, definitely.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, and, you know, there wasn’t a woman in there, and that’s a tragedy. Here I used to go around the country and I’d say, “Look what we did. We put a man on the Moon and we brought him back safely. Isn’t that wonderful?” Oh, everybody clapped, clap, clap, clap, clap. I said, “Do you realize we did that without 70 percent of the intellect of this country? We never even used it. We didn’t use any females. Minorities weren’t in the picture. So whatever you think that is, 70 percent or whatever, that’s what we accomplished. Can you imagine what we could do if we could get it all together?” I still believe that today.

[Assistant] I do too.

[User] Do you?

[Assistant]
I do.

Yes, definitely.

[User] I would think you two would appreciate it. We made some progress, but it’s miniscule compared to where we were. We’ve got a long way to go, and we’re going to see a female President one of these days, maybe upcoming. I don’t know. We’ll see.

[Assistant] We’ll have to see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Do you?

[Assistant]
I do.

Yes, definitely.

[User] I would think you two would appreciate it. We made some progress, but it’s miniscule compared to where we were. We’ve got a long way to go, and we’re going to see a female President one of these days, maybe upcoming. I don’t know. We’ll see.

[Assistant] We’ll have to see.

[User] So it is a case that we don’t use the whole intellectual capability of the United States. We say, “Well, that’s a man’s world.” That’s baloney. There’s other words for that than baloney, but we’ll be polite.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would think you two would appreciate it. We made some progress, but it’s miniscule compared to where we were. We’ve got a long way to go, and we’re going to see a female President one of these days, maybe upcoming. I don’t know. We’ll see.

[Assistant] We’ll have to see.

[User] So it is a case that we don’t use the whole intellectual capability of the United States. We say, “Well, that’s a man’s world.” That’s baloney. There’s other words for that than baloney, but we’ll be polite.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to mention?

[User] I think you’ve covered the ground pretty well. I probably have said more than I should about my anxieties about the current administration, but they’re real.

[Assistant] You were in charge of a lot of the commercial launch services for General Dynamics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it is a case that we don’t use the whole intellectual capability of the United States. We say, “Well, that’s a man’s world.” That’s baloney. There’s other words for that than baloney, but we’ll be polite.

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to mention?

[User] I think you’ve covered the ground pretty well. I probably have said more than I should about my anxieties about the current administration, but they’re real.

[Assistant] You were in charge of a lot of the commercial launch services for General Dynamics.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] With the idea of going into space and using commercial for the future, what do you think about that compared to what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think you’ve covered the ground pretty well. I probably have said more than I should about my anxieties about the current administration, but they’re real.

[Assistant] You were in charge of a lot of the commercial launch services for General Dynamics.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] With the idea of going into space and using commercial for the future, what do you think about that compared to what you were doing?

[User] Well, I spent a lot of General Dynamics’ money, I guess, redoing the launch complexes down here and getting the production back up for the Atlas, and it got to the point where they developed a new financial unit. It’s called the Lovelace Unit. It was 100 million dollars. Well, we did put a lot of money into it, and but we couldn’t convince NASA that they needed to have commercial launch services. “No, we don’t need that. Air Force doesn’t need it. We don’t need that.”\n\n Our first launch was for the Italians. We got some overseas launches, Japanese and Italian. Then we got some U.S. launches, a few U.S. launches into it. It’s ironic to hear the Obama administration saying, “We want a commercial launch service, and we’re going to turn a lot of this over to the industry and they can make the investment.” Where were they when I needed them?

[Assistant] It’s all about timing, isn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, now, I was only one of many test pilots that they were screening the records of. I was at Edwards Air Force Base [California] in experimental flight tests. I was the Project Manager of a number of the programs; in fact, I had about 14 programs that I was actively pursuing at the time. I also could fly over at Flight Ops [Operations], and I was very happy in my job when I was ordered to report to Washington [DC]. No explanation or anything.

[Assistant] Had you even at least made application?

[User] No. I didn’t even know we were going to have a space program.

[Assistant] Just a big grab bag, and they reached in and grabbed you?

[User] In fact, there were three of us from the base that were leaving, that were ordered to report to Washington. And our commander called us in and said, “Do you have any idea what this is about?” We said, “No, sir. We don’t.” He said, “Well, I don’t either.” But he said, “Don’t go volunteering for anything foolish.” [laughs]

[Assistant] And so, what happened after that? How did you find out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I didn’t even know we were going to have a space program.

[Assistant] Just a big grab bag, and they reached in and grabbed you?

[User] In fact, there were three of us from the base that were leaving, that were ordered to report to Washington. And our commander called us in and said, “Do you have any idea what this is about?” We said, “No, sir. We don’t.” He said, “Well, I don’t either.” But he said, “Don’t go volunteering for anything foolish.” [laughs]

[Assistant] And so, what happened after that? How did you find out?

[User] We reported into Washington; and we were told we were going to have a space program. “You’re one of a number of potential candidates to start the competitive process for selecting astronauts for this program. And we’ll give you a whole day of briefing on who’s going to be involved, what your position would be within the program, who you’ll be working with, how we’ll utilize it, how the program will be developed, our best-guesses at this point in time and how, step-by-step, we’ll develop the program. And those who are interested, you can sign up at the end of the day; and those who are not interested, can return home. No questions asked.”

[Assistant] I take it you signed up at the end of the day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, there were three of us from the base that were leaving, that were ordered to report to Washington. And our commander called us in and said, “Do you have any idea what this is about?” We said, “No, sir. We don’t.” He said, “Well, I don’t either.” But he said, “Don’t go volunteering for anything foolish.” [laughs]

[Assistant] And so, what happened after that? How did you find out?

[User] We reported into Washington; and we were told we were going to have a space program. “You’re one of a number of potential candidates to start the competitive process for selecting astronauts for this program. And we’ll give you a whole day of briefing on who’s going to be involved, what your position would be within the program, who you’ll be working with, how we’ll utilize it, how the program will be developed, our best-guesses at this point in time and how, step-by-step, we’ll develop the program. And those who are interested, you can sign up at the end of the day; and those who are not interested, can return home. No questions asked.”

[Assistant] I take it you signed up at the end of the day.

[User] I signed up at the end of the day. I did have one or two thoughts about, “[Do] I want to give up the job that I had and go into a new unknown?” I didn’t hesitate very long.

[Assistant] Did you ever regret that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We reported into Washington; and we were told we were going to have a space program. “You’re one of a number of potential candidates to start the competitive process for selecting astronauts for this program. And we’ll give you a whole day of briefing on who’s going to be involved, what your position would be within the program, who you’ll be working with, how we’ll utilize it, how the program will be developed, our best-guesses at this point in time and how, step-by-step, we’ll develop the program. And those who are interested, you can sign up at the end of the day; and those who are not interested, can return home. No questions asked.”

[Assistant] I take it you signed up at the end of the day.

[User] I signed up at the end of the day. I did have one or two thoughts about, “[Do] I want to give up the job that I had and go into a new unknown?” I didn’t hesitate very long.

[Assistant] Did you ever regret that decision?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Explain that to me, would you, Gordo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I signed up at the end of the day. I did have one or two thoughts about, “[Do] I want to give up the job that I had and go into a new unknown?” I didn’t hesitate very long.

[Assistant] Did you ever regret that decision?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Explain that to me, would you, Gordo?

[User] Well, I think, you know, when we got on the program, I practically had to pinch myself every day to think that I’m really here, because it was really an opportunity to really do some pioneering, because we had no idea what we’d find in space. And every day was truly an “Oh, gee whiz!” day. We were learning as we moved along, and we were in a position to really design the program as we started it.

[Assistant] In the beginning, how did you get along with the other six of the seven?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Explain that to me, would you, Gordo?

[User] Well, I think, you know, when we got on the program, I practically had to pinch myself every day to think that I’m really here, because it was really an opportunity to really do some pioneering, because we had no idea what we’d find in space. And every day was truly an “Oh, gee whiz!” day. We were learning as we moved along, and we were in a position to really design the program as we started it.

[Assistant] In the beginning, how did you get along with the other six of the seven?

[User] Oh, very well. I knew most of them from previous programs. Of course, I knew the other two Air Force officers very well and had been with Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom for a number of years before the space program.

[Assistant] But, beyond that, can you go more detail into on these answers for me?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think, you know, when we got on the program, I practically had to pinch myself every day to think that I’m really here, because it was really an opportunity to really do some pioneering, because we had no idea what we’d find in space. And every day was truly an “Oh, gee whiz!” day. We were learning as we moved along, and we were in a position to really design the program as we started it.

[Assistant] In the beginning, how did you get along with the other six of the seven?

[User] Oh, very well. I knew most of them from previous programs. Of course, I knew the other two Air Force officers very well and had been with Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom for a number of years before the space program.

[Assistant] But, beyond that, can you go more detail into on these answers for me?

[User] Well, we got along very well. I think we were all a close little group. We were kind of like a bunch of brothers. We might argue amongst ourselves. We might have disagreements. But we were able to put our collective thoughts together; and when we came out with a decision out of the astronaut room, it was a single decision. There were no minority and majority decisions.

[Assistant] Was there what you might call a competitive urge? Was the competition very strong? There are movies and there are books that would lead us to believe that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, very well. I knew most of them from previous programs. Of course, I knew the other two Air Force officers very well and had been with Gus [Virgil I.] Grissom for a number of years before the space program.

[Assistant] But, beyond that, can you go more detail into on these answers for me?

[User] Well, we got along very well. I think we were all a close little group. We were kind of like a bunch of brothers. We might argue amongst ourselves. We might have disagreements. But we were able to put our collective thoughts together; and when we came out with a decision out of the astronaut room, it was a single decision. There were no minority and majority decisions.

[Assistant] Was there what you might call a competitive urge? Was the competition very strong? There are movies and there are books that would lead us to believe that.

[User] Oh, everybody was very competitive. I think we all were very competitive. But I think there was some difference between all of us and who really super team players and who were super competitors. It ranged all the way, but everybody was on the high level of competition.

[Assistant] You don’t have to answer this question, but I’d appreciate it if you would. Can you give me your impressions of the other members of the group at that time? Not today; today, you’re all very friendly. But I wonder, at that time, your impressions of the rest of the Mercury group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we got along very well. I think we were all a close little group. We were kind of like a bunch of brothers. We might argue amongst ourselves. We might have disagreements. But we were able to put our collective thoughts together; and when we came out with a decision out of the astronaut room, it was a single decision. There were no minority and majority decisions.

[Assistant] Was there what you might call a competitive urge? Was the competition very strong? There are movies and there are books that would lead us to believe that.

[User] Oh, everybody was very competitive. I think we all were very competitive. But I think there was some difference between all of us and who really super team players and who were super competitors. It ranged all the way, but everybody was on the high level of competition.

[Assistant] You don’t have to answer this question, but I’d appreciate it if you would. Can you give me your impressions of the other members of the group at that time? Not today; today, you’re all very friendly. But I wonder, at that time, your impressions of the rest of the Mercury group.

[User] One of the things that impressed was I realized immediately that the Navy had given their officers a little better schooling and a little better orientation in public relations. Those of us from the Air Force [who came] in shaking the sand out of our leather jackets were at a little bit of a new experience on any kind of public relations. So we rather had to learn. And, of course, the one who was the most experienced in it and the most talented in it was John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. He was already a very professional public relations man. And then the three Navy officers were certainly more schooled in public relations than we were from the Air Force.

[Assistant] Well, let’s take them one by one. Can we do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, everybody was very competitive. I think we all were very competitive. But I think there was some difference between all of us and who really super team players and who were super competitors. It ranged all the way, but everybody was on the high level of competition.

[Assistant] You don’t have to answer this question, but I’d appreciate it if you would. Can you give me your impressions of the other members of the group at that time? Not today; today, you’re all very friendly. But I wonder, at that time, your impressions of the rest of the Mercury group.

[User] One of the things that impressed was I realized immediately that the Navy had given their officers a little better schooling and a little better orientation in public relations. Those of us from the Air Force [who came] in shaking the sand out of our leather jackets were at a little bit of a new experience on any kind of public relations. So we rather had to learn. And, of course, the one who was the most experienced in it and the most talented in it was John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. He was already a very professional public relations man. And then the three Navy officers were certainly more schooled in public relations than we were from the Air Force.

[Assistant] Well, let’s take them one by one. Can we do that?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.], for instance. What were your impressions of him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of the things that impressed was I realized immediately that the Navy had given their officers a little better schooling and a little better orientation in public relations. Those of us from the Air Force [who came] in shaking the sand out of our leather jackets were at a little bit of a new experience on any kind of public relations. So we rather had to learn. And, of course, the one who was the most experienced in it and the most talented in it was John [H.] Glenn [Jr.]. He was already a very professional public relations man. And then the three Navy officers were certainly more schooled in public relations than we were from the Air Force.

[Assistant] Well, let’s take them one by one. Can we do that?

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.], for instance. What were your impressions of him?

[User] Well, I had met Al and had known of Al through some joint programs that we had had between the test centers. I had known of him and very, very briefly had met him previously, but we met on the start of the competition. He and I were in the first group to start out on the competition together, the first group of six; and we went through all the whole competitive process together. So, we were close friends before we came on the program.

[Assistant] [M.] Scott Carpenter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Alan [B.] Shepard [Jr.], for instance. What were your impressions of him?

[User] Well, I had met Al and had known of Al through some joint programs that we had had between the test centers. I had known of him and very, very briefly had met him previously, but we met on the start of the competition. He and I were in the first group to start out on the competition together, the first group of six; and we went through all the whole competitive process together. So, we were close friends before we came on the program.

[Assistant] [M.] Scott Carpenter.

[User] Scott I met in Washington. I had not known Scott before. I met him in Washington when the large group was assembled; and then, of course, met him when we came on the program.

[Assistant] Deke [Donald K.] Slayton.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had met Al and had known of Al through some joint programs that we had had between the test centers. I had known of him and very, very briefly had met him previously, but we met on the start of the competition. He and I were in the first group to start out on the competition together, the first group of six; and we went through all the whole competitive process together. So, we were close friends before we came on the program.

[Assistant] [M.] Scott Carpenter.

[User] Scott I met in Washington. I had not known Scott before. I met him in Washington when the large group was assembled; and then, of course, met him when we came on the program.

[Assistant] Deke [Donald K.] Slayton.

[User] Deke I had known at Edwards. Of course, we were stationed together there at Edwards, so I knew Deke very well from years back.

[Assistant] What kind of a man was Deke?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Scott I met in Washington. I had not known Scott before. I met him in Washington when the large group was assembled; and then, of course, met him when we came on the program.

[Assistant] Deke [Donald K.] Slayton.

[User] Deke I had known at Edwards. Of course, we were stationed together there at Edwards, so I knew Deke very well from years back.

[Assistant] What kind of a man was Deke?

[User] Deke was a great guy and a very close friend. He was a good pilot and a good administrator, and really a solid citizen type.

[Assistant] How about Gus Grissom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Deke I had known at Edwards. Of course, we were stationed together there at Edwards, so I knew Deke very well from years back.

[Assistant] What kind of a man was Deke?

[User] Deke was a great guy and a very close friend. He was a good pilot and a good administrator, and really a solid citizen type.

[Assistant] How about Gus Grissom?

[User] Gus, of course, was probably my closest friend of all of them because I had been with him for a number of years previous and we had done a lot of flying together; we’d been in school together; we’d been in Test Pilot School together. So were old, long-time friends.

[Assistant] Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Deke was a great guy and a very close friend. He was a good pilot and a good administrator, and really a solid citizen type.

[Assistant] How about Gus Grissom?

[User] Gus, of course, was probably my closest friend of all of them because I had been with him for a number of years previous and we had done a lot of flying together; we’d been in school together; we’d been in Test Pilot School together. So were old, long-time friends.

[Assistant] Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.]?

[User] Wally I had known just briefly. I had never known him until we really got into meeting in Washington for the start of the competition. But, Wally and I always hit it off very well; and Wally is a great, great guy.

[Assistant] In the beginning, back as you were first starting Mercury, specialization was pretty much the order of the day. In what did you specialize, and what did it do for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gus, of course, was probably my closest friend of all of them because I had been with him for a number of years previous and we had done a lot of flying together; we’d been in school together; we’d been in Test Pilot School together. So were old, long-time friends.

[Assistant] Wally [Walter M.] Schirra [Jr.]?

[User] Wally I had known just briefly. I had never known him until we really got into meeting in Washington for the start of the competition. But, Wally and I always hit it off very well; and Wally is a great, great guy.

[Assistant] In the beginning, back as you were first starting Mercury, specialization was pretty much the order of the day. In what did you specialize, and what did it do for you?

[User] Well, I had a lot of propulsion background in my education. I had worked a lot on engines and propulsion, so I more or less was moved into the first of the propulsion systems we were going to be working with, which was the Redstone rocket.

[Assistant] Redstone. But you didn’t fly in Redstone? Why was that, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wally I had known just briefly. I had never known him until we really got into meeting in Washington for the start of the competition. But, Wally and I always hit it off very well; and Wally is a great, great guy.

[Assistant] In the beginning, back as you were first starting Mercury, specialization was pretty much the order of the day. In what did you specialize, and what did it do for you?

[User] Well, I had a lot of propulsion background in my education. I had worked a lot on engines and propulsion, so I more or less was moved into the first of the propulsion systems we were going to be working with, which was the Redstone rocket.

[Assistant] Redstone. But you didn’t fly in Redstone? Why was that, do you think?

[User] Well, they were saving me for the last and the best, I guess.

[Assistant] [laughs] Spoken like a true Mercury astronaut. Well, you know, as we begin into the flight program itself, prior to the flight program, if I remember correctly (and I’d need your anal¬ysis of this, if you would give it to me), most of the things with which you trained—the training articles—didn’t exist. They had to be worked up, dreamed up . . .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had a lot of propulsion background in my education. I had worked a lot on engines and propulsion, so I more or less was moved into the first of the propulsion systems we were going to be working with, which was the Redstone rocket.

[Assistant] Redstone. But you didn’t fly in Redstone? Why was that, do you think?

[User] Well, they were saving me for the last and the best, I guess.

[Assistant] [laughs] Spoken like a true Mercury astronaut. Well, you know, as we begin into the flight program itself, prior to the flight program, if I remember correctly (and I’d need your anal¬ysis of this, if you would give it to me), most of the things with which you trained—the training articles—didn’t exist. They had to be worked up, dreamed up . . .

[User] Well, that’s right. And people ask why we trained on a lot of the things we did. We trained in anything we could think of to train on that might be of value to us, we tried and trained on, because we were literally writing the book on how to train an astronaut as we went along. So anything that we thought might be of any help at all, we got busy and did some training on it.

[Assistant] Isn’t it a little strange that you could design equipment when you didn’t even know what the conditions were under which your body would function or not function as the case might be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they were saving me for the last and the best, I guess.

[Assistant] [laughs] Spoken like a true Mercury astronaut. Well, you know, as we begin into the flight program itself, prior to the flight program, if I remember correctly (and I’d need your anal¬ysis of this, if you would give it to me), most of the things with which you trained—the training articles—didn’t exist. They had to be worked up, dreamed up . . .

[User] Well, that’s right. And people ask why we trained on a lot of the things we did. We trained in anything we could think of to train on that might be of value to us, we tried and trained on, because we were literally writing the book on how to train an astronaut as we went along. So anything that we thought might be of any help at all, we got busy and did some training on it.

[Assistant] Isn’t it a little strange that you could design equipment when you didn’t even know what the conditions were under which your body would function or not function as the case might be?

[User] And the best of “medical experts” (and I put that in quotes) had no idea what the body would or would not do. I can remember that a lot of the medical experts were claiming that the body would not accept any fluid or food and be able to swallow in under zero gravity, that we would probably choke. And there were a lot of other of these “medical experts” who said that man could not withstand the rigors of the launch, and others who said that zero gravity—the cardiovascular system would not be able to function under zero gravity. So there was very little known about the total human body at that time.

[Assistant] Did you ever worry about all that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s right. And people ask why we trained on a lot of the things we did. We trained in anything we could think of to train on that might be of value to us, we tried and trained on, because we were literally writing the book on how to train an astronaut as we went along. So anything that we thought might be of any help at all, we got busy and did some training on it.

[Assistant] Isn’t it a little strange that you could design equipment when you didn’t even know what the conditions were under which your body would function or not function as the case might be?

[User] And the best of “medical experts” (and I put that in quotes) had no idea what the body would or would not do. I can remember that a lot of the medical experts were claiming that the body would not accept any fluid or food and be able to swallow in under zero gravity, that we would probably choke. And there were a lot of other of these “medical experts” who said that man could not withstand the rigors of the launch, and others who said that zero gravity—the cardiovascular system would not be able to function under zero gravity. So there was very little known about the total human body at that time.

[Assistant] Did you ever worry about all that?

[User] No, we really didn’t. I think the man who had the most practical point of view on it was Dr. Bill [William K.] Douglas, who really felt that man was a lot stronger and a lot more rugged a device than the medical profession gave him credit for.

[Assistant] The powers-that-be finally decided on flight systems, and I guess one of the things they were thinking of was that astronauts should talk to astronauts. So all of you took up different positions along the line. Can you describe how that functioned, how it worked when actually the first flights began?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the best of “medical experts” (and I put that in quotes) had no idea what the body would or would not do. I can remember that a lot of the medical experts were claiming that the body would not accept any fluid or food and be able to swallow in under zero gravity, that we would probably choke. And there were a lot of other of these “medical experts” who said that man could not withstand the rigors of the launch, and others who said that zero gravity—the cardiovascular system would not be able to function under zero gravity. So there was very little known about the total human body at that time.

[Assistant] Did you ever worry about all that?

[User] No, we really didn’t. I think the man who had the most practical point of view on it was Dr. Bill [William K.] Douglas, who really felt that man was a lot stronger and a lot more rugged a device than the medical profession gave him credit for.

[Assistant] The powers-that-be finally decided on flight systems, and I guess one of the things they were thinking of was that astronauts should talk to astronauts. So all of you took up different positions along the line. Can you describe how that functioned, how it worked when actually the first flights began?

[User] Well, this made a lot of sense because, since we’d been training together, we were certainly the most experienced on all the different systems; and the astronaut system interfaced, so that putting the rest of us in, when one made a flight, positions around the world really made a lot of sense. Because we knew what that astronaut making the flight was going through, and knew the systems and knew the cockpit and knew all the switches and everything better than anybody else.

[Assistant] You manned some of those positions. Can you describe those for me, in detail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we really didn’t. I think the man who had the most practical point of view on it was Dr. Bill [William K.] Douglas, who really felt that man was a lot stronger and a lot more rugged a device than the medical profession gave him credit for.

[Assistant] The powers-that-be finally decided on flight systems, and I guess one of the things they were thinking of was that astronauts should talk to astronauts. So all of you took up different positions along the line. Can you describe how that functioned, how it worked when actually the first flights began?

[User] Well, this made a lot of sense because, since we’d been training together, we were certainly the most experienced on all the different systems; and the astronaut system interfaced, so that putting the rest of us in, when one made a flight, positions around the world really made a lot of sense. Because we knew what that astronaut making the flight was going through, and knew the systems and knew the cockpit and knew all the switches and everything better than anybody else.

[Assistant] You manned some of those positions. Can you describe those for me, in detail?

[User] Well, for instance, on the very first one, you’re talking about the Redstone. What we really were doing was the key part of the launching was being done out of the blockhouse for the Redstone, and I was the capsule communicator in the blockhouse. So I controlled all of the communications going in and out of the spacecraft to the ground. I had worked very closely with Al on all the final countdown and all the pre-tests and then the testing, and we’d put in a lot of time—long, long hours—getting to that point ready for launch. So, I was there. And then as we progressed through the various flights, generally the backup of the team would be the man who’d be the capsule communicator; and, of course, later we were moving the authority for the flight after liftoff, once we opened the Houston site, then the Mercury Control Center moved to Houston after liftoff. So, the capsule communicator generally would be in the Control Center.

[Assistant] That was actually in the Gemini series, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, this made a lot of sense because, since we’d been training together, we were certainly the most experienced on all the different systems; and the astronaut system interfaced, so that putting the rest of us in, when one made a flight, positions around the world really made a lot of sense. Because we knew what that astronaut making the flight was going through, and knew the systems and knew the cockpit and knew all the switches and everything better than anybody else.

[Assistant] You manned some of those positions. Can you describe those for me, in detail?

[User] Well, for instance, on the very first one, you’re talking about the Redstone. What we really were doing was the key part of the launching was being done out of the blockhouse for the Redstone, and I was the capsule communicator in the blockhouse. So I controlled all of the communications going in and out of the spacecraft to the ground. I had worked very closely with Al on all the final countdown and all the pre-tests and then the testing, and we’d put in a lot of time—long, long hours—getting to that point ready for launch. So, I was there. And then as we progressed through the various flights, generally the backup of the team would be the man who’d be the capsule communicator; and, of course, later we were moving the authority for the flight after liftoff, once we opened the Houston site, then the Mercury Control Center moved to Houston after liftoff. So, the capsule communicator generally would be in the Control Center.

[Assistant] That was actually in the Gemini series, wasn’t it?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] During Mercury it stayed at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], as I remember.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, for instance, on the very first one, you’re talking about the Redstone. What we really were doing was the key part of the launching was being done out of the blockhouse for the Redstone, and I was the capsule communicator in the blockhouse. So I controlled all of the communications going in and out of the spacecraft to the ground. I had worked very closely with Al on all the final countdown and all the pre-tests and then the testing, and we’d put in a lot of time—long, long hours—getting to that point ready for launch. So, I was there. And then as we progressed through the various flights, generally the backup of the team would be the man who’d be the capsule communicator; and, of course, later we were moving the authority for the flight after liftoff, once we opened the Houston site, then the Mercury Control Center moved to Houston after liftoff. So, the capsule communicator generally would be in the Control Center.

[Assistant] That was actually in the Gemini series, wasn’t it?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] During Mercury it stayed at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], as I remember.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So then, working out of the Cape as they were, you’ve described the Shepard flight. You were in the blockhouse. Where were you for Grissom’s Liberty Bell?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] During Mercury it stayed at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], as I remember.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So then, working out of the Cape as they were, you’ve described the Shepard flight. You were in the blockhouse. Where were you for Grissom’s Liberty Bell?

[User] I was in the Control Center at the Cape.

[Assistant] It says here, by the way, that you were also flying chase in an F-106.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So then, working out of the Cape as they were, you’ve described the Shepard flight. You were in the blockhouse. Where were you for Grissom’s Liberty Bell?

[User] I was in the Control Center at the Cape.

[Assistant] It says here, by the way, that you were also flying chase in an F-106.

[User] Oh, you’re right. [laughs] As a matter of fact, . . .

[Assistant] [laughs] My notes are pretty accurate. They were given to me by the historians.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the Control Center at the Cape.

[Assistant] It says here, by the way, that you were also flying chase in an F-106.

[User] Oh, you’re right. [laughs] As a matter of fact, . . .

[Assistant] [laughs] My notes are pretty accurate. They were given to me by the historians.

[User] You’re correct. We decided we would . . . We wanted to see, because we’d had trouble with the first Mercury-Atlas disintegrating and determining that the interface between the spacecraft and the booster was a questionable entity, we wanted to get some pictures of the high-Q phase (in other words, as you’re going through the densest atmosphere at the fastest speed, which gives you the most dynamic pressure and causes the greatest stress on the spacecraft/booster interface). We wanted to get some pictures of that and just be able to see if we could get in close. So I had a Bell & Howell photon camera and came in with the 106 to pick up Gus as he began to move over and really began to get into the high-Q area.

[Assistant] After that, it says here that you went to Point Arguello [California] for the chimpanzee Enos two-orbit flight. You couldn’t communicate with the chimpanzee, could you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you’re right. [laughs] As a matter of fact, . . .

[Assistant] [laughs] My notes are pretty accurate. They were given to me by the historians.

[User] You’re correct. We decided we would . . . We wanted to see, because we’d had trouble with the first Mercury-Atlas disintegrating and determining that the interface between the spacecraft and the booster was a questionable entity, we wanted to get some pictures of the high-Q phase (in other words, as you’re going through the densest atmosphere at the fastest speed, which gives you the most dynamic pressure and causes the greatest stress on the spacecraft/booster interface). We wanted to get some pictures of that and just be able to see if we could get in close. So I had a Bell & Howell photon camera and came in with the 106 to pick up Gus as he began to move over and really began to get into the high-Q area.

[Assistant] After that, it says here that you went to Point Arguello [California] for the chimpanzee Enos two-orbit flight. You couldn’t communicate with the chimpanzee, could you?

[User] No, I was there for Scott Carpenter’s flight. Oh, I’m sorry. I was at Point Arguello for the chimpanzee flight, and then I was at Guaymas [Mexico] for Scotty Carpenter’s flight.

[Assistant] Actually, you went, in this case, sort of a dress rehearsal, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re correct. We decided we would . . . We wanted to see, because we’d had trouble with the first Mercury-Atlas disintegrating and determining that the interface between the spacecraft and the booster was a questionable entity, we wanted to get some pictures of the high-Q phase (in other words, as you’re going through the densest atmosphere at the fastest speed, which gives you the most dynamic pressure and causes the greatest stress on the spacecraft/booster interface). We wanted to get some pictures of that and just be able to see if we could get in close. So I had a Bell & Howell photon camera and came in with the 106 to pick up Gus as he began to move over and really began to get into the high-Q area.

[Assistant] After that, it says here that you went to Point Arguello [California] for the chimpanzee Enos two-orbit flight. You couldn’t communicate with the chimpanzee, could you?

[User] No, I was there for Scott Carpenter’s flight. Oh, I’m sorry. I was at Point Arguello for the chimpanzee flight, and then I was at Guaymas [Mexico] for Scotty Carpenter’s flight.

[Assistant] Actually, you went, in this case, sort of a dress rehearsal, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] With the chimp, to see how the systems might work. Well, I guess the one that I remember most was when John Glenn flew, and you went to Australia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was there for Scott Carpenter’s flight. Oh, I’m sorry. I was at Point Arguello for the chimpanzee flight, and then I was at Guaymas [Mexico] for Scotty Carpenter’s flight.

[Assistant] Actually, you went, in this case, sort of a dress rehearsal, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] With the chimp, to see how the systems might work. Well, I guess the one that I remember most was when John Glenn flew, and you went to Australia.

[User] I went to Australia.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that one? Because that was pretty wild.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] With the chimp, to see how the systems might work. Well, I guess the one that I remember most was when John Glenn flew, and you went to Australia.

[User] I went to Australia.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that one? Because that was pretty wild.

[User] Well, it was a great locale. We had the tracking site north of Perth, Australia. And, of course, we had a lot of delays in getting John launched, so I was there for quite a period of time. We had a joint team there composed of both the Australians and Americans. It was a good bunch, and I enjoyed them thoroughly—including the Australian flight surgeon, who was there at our site. So it was a good team, and they did a great job on the tracking side.

[Assistant] You also, by that time, must have learned a few lessons about public relations. I’m thinking of the people of Perth and the lights. Would you describe that for me?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to Australia.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that one? Because that was pretty wild.

[User] Well, it was a great locale. We had the tracking site north of Perth, Australia. And, of course, we had a lot of delays in getting John launched, so I was there for quite a period of time. We had a joint team there composed of both the Australians and Americans. It was a good bunch, and I enjoyed them thoroughly—including the Australian flight surgeon, who was there at our site. So it was a good team, and they did a great job on the tracking side.

[Assistant] You also, by that time, must have learned a few lessons about public relations. I’m thinking of the people of Perth and the lights. Would you describe that for me?

[User] Yes. There was a question about what could an astronaut really see on night-side, in the dark; what could he see in the way of lights? So the people of Perth, including the mayor of Perth, decided that they would bring up all the lights they could. And British Petroleum turned up some big oil-fired torches that they had out south of Perth, that put out umpteen thousand BTUs [British Thermal Units] per torch; they turned all those on. And everybody in Perth brought their lights up to see if John could see the city of Perth. Of course, he could see almost each and every light, but it was a well lit-up area.

[Assistant] It was certainly one of the best public relations devices for that flight, as well as being an engineering requirement.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a great locale. We had the tracking site north of Perth, Australia. And, of course, we had a lot of delays in getting John launched, so I was there for quite a period of time. We had a joint team there composed of both the Australians and Americans. It was a good bunch, and I enjoyed them thoroughly—including the Australian flight surgeon, who was there at our site. So it was a good team, and they did a great job on the tracking side.

[Assistant] You also, by that time, must have learned a few lessons about public relations. I’m thinking of the people of Perth and the lights. Would you describe that for me?

[User] Yes. There was a question about what could an astronaut really see on night-side, in the dark; what could he see in the way of lights? So the people of Perth, including the mayor of Perth, decided that they would bring up all the lights they could. And British Petroleum turned up some big oil-fired torches that they had out south of Perth, that put out umpteen thousand BTUs [British Thermal Units] per torch; they turned all those on. And everybody in Perth brought their lights up to see if John could see the city of Perth. Of course, he could see almost each and every light, but it was a well lit-up area.

[Assistant] It was certainly one of the best public relations devices for that flight, as well as being an engineering requirement.

[User] It was. It turned out to be—it really captured the imaginations of people, I think.

[Assistant] In an engineering sense, I’m noticing here that you had to get some information from John about the heatshield problem. Do you remember the heatshield—for John was a major problem? And apparently you loomed large in getting the infor¬mation that was necessary to figure out what to do.