[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There was a question about what could an astronaut really see on night-side, in the dark; what could he see in the way of lights? So the people of Perth, including the mayor of Perth, decided that they would bring up all the lights they could. And British Petroleum turned up some big oil-fired torches that they had out south of Perth, that put out umpteen thousand BTUs [British Thermal Units] per torch; they turned all those on. And everybody in Perth brought their lights up to see if John could see the city of Perth. Of course, he could see almost each and every light, but it was a well lit-up area.

[Assistant] It was certainly one of the best public relations devices for that flight, as well as being an engineering requirement.

[User] It was. It turned out to be—it really captured the imaginations of people, I think.

[Assistant] In an engineering sense, I’m noticing here that you had to get some information from John about the heatshield problem. Do you remember the heatshield—for John was a major problem? And apparently you loomed large in getting the infor¬mation that was necessary to figure out what to do.

[User] Yes. Well, we’d had an indication that John’s heatshield had already separated; in other words, that it had unlocked—not necessarily separated, but that it had unlocked. So we were con¬cerned that if it were really unlocked, could any wild oscillations jar the heatshield loose and lose the heatshield? So we needed to back ourselves up to give us all the best assurance we could that it was truly still locked.

[Assistant] Of course, it worked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It turned out to be—it really captured the imaginations of people, I think.

[Assistant] In an engineering sense, I’m noticing here that you had to get some information from John about the heatshield problem. Do you remember the heatshield—for John was a major problem? And apparently you loomed large in getting the infor¬mation that was necessary to figure out what to do.

[User] Yes. Well, we’d had an indication that John’s heatshield had already separated; in other words, that it had unlocked—not necessarily separated, but that it had unlocked. So we were con¬cerned that if it were really unlocked, could any wild oscillations jar the heatshield loose and lose the heatshield? So we needed to back ourselves up to give us all the best assurance we could that it was truly still locked.

[Assistant] Of course, it worked.

[User] It worked.

[Assistant] John was also talking about his attitude control system with you as to the reliability; because if it didn’t work, the thing that might happen, particularly since you were going to try to keep the heatshield connected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, we’d had an indication that John’s heatshield had already separated; in other words, that it had unlocked—not necessarily separated, but that it had unlocked. So we were con¬cerned that if it were really unlocked, could any wild oscillations jar the heatshield loose and lose the heatshield? So we needed to back ourselves up to give us all the best assurance we could that it was truly still locked.

[Assistant] Of course, it worked.

[User] It worked.

[Assistant] John was also talking about his attitude control system with you as to the reliability; because if it didn’t work, the thing that might happen, particularly since you were going to try to keep the heatshield connected.

[User] Right. Well, but just to back ourselves up, we elected to keep the retropackage on until it burned off, just to give that added few moments of holding the heatshield in place in case it should be unlocked.

[Assistant] Well, finally all these things began to go together, Gordon; and obviously, you served as CapCom [Capsule Communicator], as you mentioned, at Guaymas. Anything special happen there during the Carpenter flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It worked.

[Assistant] John was also talking about his attitude control system with you as to the reliability; because if it didn’t work, the thing that might happen, particularly since you were going to try to keep the heatshield connected.

[User] Right. Well, but just to back ourselves up, we elected to keep the retropackage on until it burned off, just to give that added few moments of holding the heatshield in place in case it should be unlocked.

[Assistant] Well, finally all these things began to go together, Gordon; and obviously, you served as CapCom [Capsule Communicator], as you mentioned, at Guaymas. Anything special happen there during the Carpenter flight?

[User] No, not particularly. That was a good tracking site and a good locale for Scott’s flight.

[Assistant] The real problem on his flight apparently came when he burned to come home; and there were some errors made, so he overshot the landing site.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Well, but just to back ourselves up, we elected to keep the retropackage on until it burned off, just to give that added few moments of holding the heatshield in place in case it should be unlocked.

[Assistant] Well, finally all these things began to go together, Gordon; and obviously, you served as CapCom [Capsule Communicator], as you mentioned, at Guaymas. Anything special happen there during the Carpenter flight?

[User] No, not particularly. That was a good tracking site and a good locale for Scott’s flight.

[Assistant] The real problem on his flight apparently came when he burned to come home; and there were some errors made, so he overshot the landing site.

[User] Well, I think Scott was really so intense on some of the things he was trying to get some data on that he got a little behind—just a little behind—the curve on his time there; and everything kind of fogged in on him at one time.

[Assistant] Finally, of course, you were assigned to the last flight in the Mercury series; and that put you in as backup for Wally Schirra with his Sigma 7 mission. Do you remember Wally’s mission? You must’ve been sitting on the edge of your seat because you were up next, trying to glean what informa¬tion you could glean. Was that true?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On Yeah. It’s true. Wally and I had really worked hard on trying to find a number of things we wanted to find. One, we needed to find out could you really and truly navigate from space, pilotage-wise? Could you see details enough on the ground to really, truly do some pilotage navigation? You’ve got to know I’m coming up here, and I’m coming up here, and I’m coming here. And so we had even inflated the spare Echo balloon and painted the various continents on it and built a simulated spacecraft window from the top of Hangar S and turned this balloon at the right rate so we can see what it would look like from space. That was one of Wally’s first comments, “Gordo, it looks just like the balloon.” So, there were a lot of things that we were wanting to do. We decided that, we felt very strongly that we could develop a technique for flying a lot more than leaving it on partial auto¬pilot or all autopilot. That we could actually get on to the manual tweak mode and just tweak those thrusters and save a lot of fuel. So, Wally was trying this; and I was happy to get that information because it stood me in good stead then on my flight.

[Assistant] Did you know, of a certainty, that you were going to fly next when you were backup with Wally? Had that been determined at that time?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Because I understand there was still some discussion about whether or not you would, indeed, fly in Mercury since Deke, by this time, had been knocked out of the flight-testing portion of the program.

[User] Well, of course, he was knocked out when Scotty took the place on the flight that Deke was originally slated to have.

[Assistant] And Deke was given the job of running the Astronaut Office.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Because I understand there was still some discussion about whether or not you would, indeed, fly in Mercury since Deke, by this time, had been knocked out of the flight-testing portion of the program.

[User] Well, of course, he was knocked out when Scotty took the place on the flight that Deke was originally slated to have.

[Assistant] And Deke was given the job of running the Astronaut Office.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] As such, I understand he was instrumental in your being the pilot for that [Mercury] 9 mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, he was knocked out when Scotty took the place on the flight that Deke was originally slated to have.

[Assistant] And Deke was given the job of running the Astronaut Office.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] As such, I understand he was instrumental in your being the pilot for that [Mercury] 9 mission.

[User] I’m sure he was.

[Assistant] And then, just before the mission, something happened. You buzzed the Cape. Do you remember that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] As such, I understand he was instrumental in your being the pilot for that [Mercury] 9 mission.

[User] I’m sure he was.

[Assistant] And then, just before the mission, something happened. You buzzed the Cape. Do you remember that?

[User] Yeah, I was a little mad that day. That was the day before launch, and we had a firm ground rule that we didn’t put anything new into the spacecraft or into the pressure suit or anything at the last minute that you could not adequately test. But the medics had overrid¬den this very firm ground rule we had, and they had cut a big hole in the side of my suit and inserted another great, big metal fitting, which rubbed the heck out of my ribs (by the way) in order to put in a hose for a blood pressure cuff that could automatically inflate and they could take blood pressure whenever they wanted it. And this really antagonized me because we had broken all our ground rules here at the last minute. We also had a little ground rule that we would always go out the day before launch and get one of our fighters and take it out and really shake it down and shake out all the kinks. So, being a little angry at the time when I went out to get my fighter ready to go, I came back over the Cape and buzzed the Cape fairly low; and when Walt [Walter C.] Williams happened to walk out of his office and almost fell flat because I was pretty low coming right by his window, lighting the afterburner, he was a little startled. And he was pretty teed off about it, I think.

[Assistant] Teed off enough that it is reported that he wanted to knock you off on your flight two days before the mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m sure he was.

[Assistant] And then, just before the mission, something happened. You buzzed the Cape. Do you remember that?

[User] Yeah, I was a little mad that day. That was the day before launch, and we had a firm ground rule that we didn’t put anything new into the spacecraft or into the pressure suit or anything at the last minute that you could not adequately test. But the medics had overrid¬den this very firm ground rule we had, and they had cut a big hole in the side of my suit and inserted another great, big metal fitting, which rubbed the heck out of my ribs (by the way) in order to put in a hose for a blood pressure cuff that could automatically inflate and they could take blood pressure whenever they wanted it. And this really antagonized me because we had broken all our ground rules here at the last minute. We also had a little ground rule that we would always go out the day before launch and get one of our fighters and take it out and really shake it down and shake out all the kinks. So, being a little angry at the time when I went out to get my fighter ready to go, I came back over the Cape and buzzed the Cape fairly low; and when Walt [Walter C.] Williams happened to walk out of his office and almost fell flat because I was pretty low coming right by his window, lighting the afterburner, he was a little startled. And he was pretty teed off about it, I think.

[Assistant] Teed off enough that it is reported that he wanted to knock you off on your flight two days before the mission.

[User] That was what was reported to me, that Walt just might pull me off the flight as a result.

[Assistant] But, apparently Slayton stood as your champion and had others who, of course, agreed; and so you flew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I was a little mad that day. That was the day before launch, and we had a firm ground rule that we didn’t put anything new into the spacecraft or into the pressure suit or anything at the last minute that you could not adequately test. But the medics had overrid¬den this very firm ground rule we had, and they had cut a big hole in the side of my suit and inserted another great, big metal fitting, which rubbed the heck out of my ribs (by the way) in order to put in a hose for a blood pressure cuff that could automatically inflate and they could take blood pressure whenever they wanted it. And this really antagonized me because we had broken all our ground rules here at the last minute. We also had a little ground rule that we would always go out the day before launch and get one of our fighters and take it out and really shake it down and shake out all the kinks. So, being a little angry at the time when I went out to get my fighter ready to go, I came back over the Cape and buzzed the Cape fairly low; and when Walt [Walter C.] Williams happened to walk out of his office and almost fell flat because I was pretty low coming right by his window, lighting the afterburner, he was a little startled. And he was pretty teed off about it, I think.

[Assistant] Teed off enough that it is reported that he wanted to knock you off on your flight two days before the mission.

[User] That was what was reported to me, that Walt just might pull me off the flight as a result.

[Assistant] But, apparently Slayton stood as your champion and had others who, of course, agreed; and so you flew.

[User] Well, Walt assured me several years later that he really wasn’t going to pull me off, that he just wanted to worry me on it.

[Assistant] [laughs] That’s priceless. Well, how did you come up with the name Faith 7?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was what was reported to me, that Walt just might pull me off the flight as a result.

[Assistant] But, apparently Slayton stood as your champion and had others who, of course, agreed; and so you flew.

[User] Well, Walt assured me several years later that he really wasn’t going to pull me off, that he just wanted to worry me on it.

[Assistant] [laughs] That’s priceless. Well, how did you come up with the name Faith 7?

[User] Well, being the last, it was getting harder and harder to pick a name because everybody had picked pretty good names before. It was kind of a large responsibility to pick a name for a spacecraft where it’s before the eyes of the whole world. But I decided that I had a lot of faith in all my hardware and my spacecraft, and I had a lot of faith in the launch team, I had faith in myself, and I had faith in God; and I thought that was just a real dilly of a name. So that became the name: Faith 7.

[Assistant] I understand that there were those at NASA, particularly at Headquarters [Washington DC], who didn’t like the name; because, if something happened, you’d have lost faith.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Walt assured me several years later that he really wasn’t going to pull me off, that he just wanted to worry me on it.

[Assistant] [laughs] That’s priceless. Well, how did you come up with the name Faith 7?

[User] Well, being the last, it was getting harder and harder to pick a name because everybody had picked pretty good names before. It was kind of a large responsibility to pick a name for a spacecraft where it’s before the eyes of the whole world. But I decided that I had a lot of faith in all my hardware and my spacecraft, and I had a lot of faith in the launch team, I had faith in myself, and I had faith in God; and I thought that was just a real dilly of a name. So that became the name: Faith 7.

[Assistant] I understand that there were those at NASA, particularly at Headquarters [Washington DC], who didn’t like the name; because, if something happened, you’d have lost faith.

[User] Well, we never really worried about what Headquarters thought. They always had been against—somewhat against—anything personalized at all anyway. You know, it was safer not to have anything personalized; and the thing that these people at NASA Headquarters didn’t realize is that the personalized thing is what really garnered the public’s attention and the public backing. And, I think that was a bad mistake they made in Gemini when they took away the naming of the spacecraft; and by Jim [James E.] Webb’s own words, he wanted to have space¬craft number 1, 2, [and] 3, and astronaut number 3, 4, and 7, 8. He didn’t want any names involved or any personalities involved. He wanted everything depersonalized. And I think the interest of the public waned as a result of that.

[Assistant] Funniest thing: On the opposite side, the media, of which I was one at the time, were pushing very hard to personalize the flights. People like yourself obviously didn’t think that was all bad, because you worked with us in that endeavor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we never really worried about what Headquarters thought. They always had been against—somewhat against—anything personalized at all anyway. You know, it was safer not to have anything personalized; and the thing that these people at NASA Headquarters didn’t realize is that the personalized thing is what really garnered the public’s attention and the public backing. And, I think that was a bad mistake they made in Gemini when they took away the naming of the spacecraft; and by Jim [James E.] Webb’s own words, he wanted to have space¬craft number 1, 2, [and] 3, and astronaut number 3, 4, and 7, 8. He didn’t want any names involved or any personalities involved. He wanted everything depersonalized. And I think the interest of the public waned as a result of that.

[Assistant] Funniest thing: On the opposite side, the media, of which I was one at the time, were pushing very hard to personalize the flights. People like yourself obviously didn’t think that was all bad, because you worked with us in that endeavor.

[User] I think most of us felt that it was important to personalize the flight, that that’s what really made the public get close behind and have a close feeling for these things they followed so closely.

[Assistant] You may remember, too, on your flight when you flew it: You gave us the first experimental television—black-and-white, not great, but nonetheless . . .

[User] It was slow scan, but, you know, we’d had a question whether it would even work from space or not. And so it did prove that it would.

[Assistant] Funniest thing, though: Again, NASA Headquarters said, “Yeah, that’s fine. But you can’t have it until we get ready to fly off to the Moon.” So, there was a huge gap between your flight and the early television and what happened later. What do you think about something like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think most of us felt that it was important to personalize the flight, that that’s what really made the public get close behind and have a close feeling for these things they followed so closely.

[Assistant] You may remember, too, on your flight when you flew it: You gave us the first experimental television—black-and-white, not great, but nonetheless . . .

[User] It was slow scan, but, you know, we’d had a question whether it would even work from space or not. And so it did prove that it would.

[Assistant] Funniest thing, though: Again, NASA Headquarters said, “Yeah, that’s fine. But you can’t have it until we get ready to fly off to the Moon.” So, there was a huge gap between your flight and the early television and what happened later. What do you think about something like that?

[User] It kind of goes along with what NASA said. I can recall that memo saying that: “If an astronaut desires, he may carry a camera.” That’s the importance they put [on] the pictures from space. And having already been a pretty experienced photographer, that just raked me somewhat. I felt they just didn’t understand the whole thing at all, and they certainly could not put out a memo like that and understand the importance of photography.

[Assistant] I was under the impression that every one of the Mercury flights carried cameras.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was slow scan, but, you know, we’d had a question whether it would even work from space or not. And so it did prove that it would.

[Assistant] Funniest thing, though: Again, NASA Headquarters said, “Yeah, that’s fine. But you can’t have it until we get ready to fly off to the Moon.” So, there was a huge gap between your flight and the early television and what happened later. What do you think about something like that?

[User] It kind of goes along with what NASA said. I can recall that memo saying that: “If an astronaut desires, he may carry a camera.” That’s the importance they put [on] the pictures from space. And having already been a pretty experienced photographer, that just raked me somewhat. I felt they just didn’t understand the whole thing at all, and they certainly could not put out a memo like that and understand the importance of photography.

[Assistant] I was under the impression that every one of the Mercury flights carried cameras.

[User] Well, John and Scott carried Instamatics™. Which is fine. It’s better than no camera. So, we went down and locally procured a Hasselblad and modified it for Wally’s flight; Wally and I were working on this. And that was the first quality camera that was taken.

[Assistant] The astronauts themselves did those modifications?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It kind of goes along with what NASA said. I can recall that memo saying that: “If an astronaut desires, he may carry a camera.” That’s the importance they put [on] the pictures from space. And having already been a pretty experienced photographer, that just raked me somewhat. I felt they just didn’t understand the whole thing at all, and they certainly could not put out a memo like that and understand the importance of photography.

[Assistant] I was under the impression that every one of the Mercury flights carried cameras.

[User] Well, John and Scott carried Instamatics™. Which is fine. It’s better than no camera. So, we went down and locally procured a Hasselblad and modified it for Wally’s flight; Wally and I were working on this. And that was the first quality camera that was taken.

[Assistant] The astronauts themselves did those modifications?

[User] No. We did it in conjunction with the camera lab, the Air Force camera lab, down at Patrick [AFB, Florida].

[Assistant] Then you flew a lengthy mission. But before you flew it, I guess you had to rest up on the launch pad. You’re famous for that story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, John and Scott carried Instamatics™. Which is fine. It’s better than no camera. So, we went down and locally procured a Hasselblad and modified it for Wally’s flight; Wally and I were working on this. And that was the first quality camera that was taken.

[Assistant] The astronauts themselves did those modifications?

[User] No. We did it in conjunction with the camera lab, the Air Force camera lab, down at Patrick [AFB, Florida].

[Assistant] Then you flew a lengthy mission. But before you flew it, I guess you had to rest up on the launch pad. You’re famous for that story.

[User] Well, I had my work all done and we had a built-in hold to get the range up to speed. I’d already been up several hours, so I thought that would just be a good opportunity to get a little nap.

[Assistant] [laughs] And you took one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We did it in conjunction with the camera lab, the Air Force camera lab, down at Patrick [AFB, Florida].

[Assistant] Then you flew a lengthy mission. But before you flew it, I guess you had to rest up on the launch pad. You’re famous for that story.

[User] Well, I had my work all done and we had a built-in hold to get the range up to speed. I’d already been up several hours, so I thought that would just be a good opportunity to get a little nap.

[Assistant] [laughs] And you took one.

[User] So I took a little nap.

[Assistant] [laughs] Everybody was a little shocked. Obviously, it shows that you were relaxed and that you weren’t really worried about what was going to happen.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had my work all done and we had a built-in hold to get the range up to speed. I’d already been up several hours, so I thought that would just be a good opportunity to get a little nap.

[Assistant] [laughs] And you took one.

[User] So I took a little nap.

[Assistant] [laughs] Everybody was a little shocked. Obviously, it shows that you were relaxed and that you weren’t really worried about what was going to happen.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] What was your primary responsibility during that mission? How would you define that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I took a little nap.

[Assistant] [laughs] Everybody was a little shocked. Obviously, it shows that you were relaxed and that you weren’t really worried about what was going to happen.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] What was your primary responsibility during that mission? How would you define that?

[User] Well, my primary responsibility was to really find out how all the modes of the spacecraft worked, show that we could really fly them; to get off the stable table and prove that I could come back with the attitude I wanted to recapture the stable table and put it on and off; and then to fly manually most of the rest of the mission. I had planned on getting a lot of pictures of various things. I had several things for visual. I had a little ball that I ejected, put out, to see what the dynamics of it would be as it got further and closer to the spacecraft on its own trajectory, and to see at what distance I could see the little flashing light that was on it.

[Assistant] Could you describe how that worked; in other words, the results?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] What was your primary responsibility during that mission? How would you define that?

[User] Well, my primary responsibility was to really find out how all the modes of the spacecraft worked, show that we could really fly them; to get off the stable table and prove that I could come back with the attitude I wanted to recapture the stable table and put it on and off; and then to fly manually most of the rest of the mission. I had planned on getting a lot of pictures of various things. I had several things for visual. I had a little ball that I ejected, put out, to see what the dynamics of it would be as it got further and closer to the spacecraft on its own trajectory, and to see at what distance I could see the little flashing light that was on it.

[Assistant] Could you describe how that worked; in other words, the results?

[User] The results were very good. I didn’t see it initially when I was supposed to be able to see it. And then I saw it a number of times the rest of the flight, at different times. So, we got some good data out of it on what distance you really could see a light in space.

[Assistant] How far could you see it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my primary responsibility was to really find out how all the modes of the spacecraft worked, show that we could really fly them; to get off the stable table and prove that I could come back with the attitude I wanted to recapture the stable table and put it on and off; and then to fly manually most of the rest of the mission. I had planned on getting a lot of pictures of various things. I had several things for visual. I had a little ball that I ejected, put out, to see what the dynamics of it would be as it got further and closer to the spacecraft on its own trajectory, and to see at what distance I could see the little flashing light that was on it.

[Assistant] Could you describe how that worked; in other words, the results?

[User] The results were very good. I didn’t see it initially when I was supposed to be able to see it. And then I saw it a number of times the rest of the flight, at different times. So, we got some good data out of it on what distance you really could see a light in space.

[Assistant] How far could you see it?

[User] Oh, quite a few miles. And this was interesting because, theoretically, people didn’t really know what you would be able to see in space in vacuum; because, without air to transmit the objects, could you really visually see them any distance at all?

[Assistant] I’m surprised under weightlessness that your eye lenses wouldn’t give you all sorts of strange corrections.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The results were very good. I didn’t see it initially when I was supposed to be able to see it. And then I saw it a number of times the rest of the flight, at different times. So, we got some good data out of it on what distance you really could see a light in space.

[Assistant] How far could you see it?

[User] Oh, quite a few miles. And this was interesting because, theoretically, people didn’t really know what you would be able to see in space in vacuum; because, without air to transmit the objects, could you really visually see them any distance at all?

[Assistant] I’m surprised under weightlessness that your eye lenses wouldn’t give you all sorts of strange corrections.

[User] Well, that’s one of the things that the medical thought might happen. As it turns out, it didn’t at all.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, observations on the body were said to have been one of the major reasons for what you were doing on that flight. NASA was still very anxious, particularly, because yours was the first fairly lengthy duration mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, quite a few miles. And this was interesting because, theoretically, people didn’t really know what you would be able to see in space in vacuum; because, without air to transmit the objects, could you really visually see them any distance at all?

[Assistant] I’m surprised under weightlessness that your eye lenses wouldn’t give you all sorts of strange corrections.

[User] Well, that’s one of the things that the medical thought might happen. As it turns out, it didn’t at all.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, observations on the body were said to have been one of the major reasons for what you were doing on that flight. NASA was still very anxious, particularly, because yours was the first fairly lengthy duration mission.

[User] And there again, I was the first one to fly long enough to power down and go to sleep and see if you could sleep in space, and to medically observe an astronaut at sleep in space, and then wake up and get your senses back with you, and pick up and go ahead and do the job.

[Assistant] Any observations on going to sleep and then waking up that you could share with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s one of the things that the medical thought might happen. As it turns out, it didn’t at all.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, observations on the body were said to have been one of the major reasons for what you were doing on that flight. NASA was still very anxious, particularly, because yours was the first fairly lengthy duration mission.

[User] And there again, I was the first one to fly long enough to power down and go to sleep and see if you could sleep in space, and to medically observe an astronaut at sleep in space, and then wake up and get your senses back with you, and pick up and go ahead and do the job.

[Assistant] Any observations on going to sleep and then waking up that you could share with us?

[User] At the time I was supposed to power down and go to sleep, I was just at that point in time I was coming up over the high steppes of India and coming in, and I realized I was coming right in to the first time we’d ever been able to fly in day-side daylight over the Himalayas. So, I was in a power-down mode, just on tweak pulse, and so I could do a lot of tweaking, and they wouldn’t even note any fuel being gone. So very quietly every time I came over the Himalayas for several orbits, I managed to get some good pictures of the Himalayas. And so they thought I was asleep all that time. And then, I had a fairly low heart rate anyway, and they really didn’t take into consideration how much lower you’d be in space, and then how much lower you’d be in space when you went to sleep. So when I came whistling over the horizon asleep, truly asleep, the first time, they woke me up just to see if I was okay. I guess my heart rate was really way down there.

[Assistant] While you sneaked a peek at the Himalayas. [laughs]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there again, I was the first one to fly long enough to power down and go to sleep and see if you could sleep in space, and to medically observe an astronaut at sleep in space, and then wake up and get your senses back with you, and pick up and go ahead and do the job.

[Assistant] Any observations on going to sleep and then waking up that you could share with us?

[User] At the time I was supposed to power down and go to sleep, I was just at that point in time I was coming up over the high steppes of India and coming in, and I realized I was coming right in to the first time we’d ever been able to fly in day-side daylight over the Himalayas. So, I was in a power-down mode, just on tweak pulse, and so I could do a lot of tweaking, and they wouldn’t even note any fuel being gone. So very quietly every time I came over the Himalayas for several orbits, I managed to get some good pictures of the Himalayas. And so they thought I was asleep all that time. And then, I had a fairly low heart rate anyway, and they really didn’t take into consideration how much lower you’d be in space, and then how much lower you’d be in space when you went to sleep. So when I came whistling over the horizon asleep, truly asleep, the first time, they woke me up just to see if I was okay. I guess my heart rate was really way down there.

[Assistant] While you sneaked a peek at the Himalayas. [laughs]

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have any problems either with your personal comfort or with the spacecraft? Any real problems during the flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the time I was supposed to power down and go to sleep, I was just at that point in time I was coming up over the high steppes of India and coming in, and I realized I was coming right in to the first time we’d ever been able to fly in day-side daylight over the Himalayas. So, I was in a power-down mode, just on tweak pulse, and so I could do a lot of tweaking, and they wouldn’t even note any fuel being gone. So very quietly every time I came over the Himalayas for several orbits, I managed to get some good pictures of the Himalayas. And so they thought I was asleep all that time. And then, I had a fairly low heart rate anyway, and they really didn’t take into consideration how much lower you’d be in space, and then how much lower you’d be in space when you went to sleep. So when I came whistling over the horizon asleep, truly asleep, the first time, they woke me up just to see if I was okay. I guess my heart rate was really way down there.

[Assistant] While you sneaked a peek at the Himalayas. [laughs]

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have any problems either with your personal comfort or with the spacecraft? Any real problems during the flight?

[User] Not really any real problems. We always had trouble keeping the temperature of the suit adjusted, because the valve was so sensitive that, when you went a little too far on it for cool¬ness, you’d tend to freeze it up. You’d have to back off and get it unfrozen and then—

[Assistant] It might be good to mention the fact that, in those days, you didn’t fly shirtsleeve.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have any problems either with your personal comfort or with the spacecraft? Any real problems during the flight?

[User] Not really any real problems. We always had trouble keeping the temperature of the suit adjusted, because the valve was so sensitive that, when you went a little too far on it for cool¬ness, you’d tend to freeze it up. You’d have to back off and get it unfrozen and then—

[Assistant] It might be good to mention the fact that, in those days, you didn’t fly shirtsleeve.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Particularly in this day, because, in recent years, astronauts have flown in shirtsleeves. But in those days, you kept the suit on, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really any real problems. We always had trouble keeping the temperature of the suit adjusted, because the valve was so sensitive that, when you went a little too far on it for cool¬ness, you’d tend to freeze it up. You’d have to back off and get it unfrozen and then—

[Assistant] It might be good to mention the fact that, in those days, you didn’t fly shirtsleeve.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Particularly in this day, because, in recent years, astronauts have flown in shirtsleeves. But in those days, you kept the suit on, didn’t you?

[User] Kept the suit on the whole mission, yeah.

[Assistant] Was that true—That was true for Mercury; how about Gemini?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Particularly in this day, because, in recent years, astronauts have flown in shirtsleeves. But in those days, you kept the suit on, didn’t you?

[User] Kept the suit on the whole mission, yeah.

[Assistant] Was that true—That was true for Mercury; how about Gemini?

[User] In Gemini, Pete [Charles C. Conrad, Jr.] and I tried to get approval to fly in just a regular flying suit on Gemini V, since we were not going to be doing EVA [Extravehicular Activity] and we thought we had developed enough relia¬bility in the pressurization system at that time we could be able to fly in a flying suit. But, NASA wouldn’t approve it. So, the first thing we go into orbit, the first thing that happened is our helmets and suits came off; and we were in our undies.

[Assistant] That was in Gemini.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kept the suit on the whole mission, yeah.

[Assistant] Was that true—That was true for Mercury; how about Gemini?

[User] In Gemini, Pete [Charles C. Conrad, Jr.] and I tried to get approval to fly in just a regular flying suit on Gemini V, since we were not going to be doing EVA [Extravehicular Activity] and we thought we had developed enough relia¬bility in the pressurization system at that time we could be able to fly in a flying suit. But, NASA wouldn’t approve it. So, the first thing we go into orbit, the first thing that happened is our helmets and suits came off; and we were in our undies.

[Assistant] That was in Gemini.

[User] In Gemini.

[Assistant] But, of course, in Mercury you kept the suit on and had the temperature problem. And, I noticed that, finally as you got ready to make your entry (or reentry, depending on which way you like it), a warning light came on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Gemini, Pete [Charles C. Conrad, Jr.] and I tried to get approval to fly in just a regular flying suit on Gemini V, since we were not going to be doing EVA [Extravehicular Activity] and we thought we had developed enough relia¬bility in the pressurization system at that time we could be able to fly in a flying suit. But, NASA wouldn’t approve it. So, the first thing we go into orbit, the first thing that happened is our helmets and suits came off; and we were in our undies.

[Assistant] That was in Gemini.

[User] In Gemini.

[Assistant] But, of course, in Mercury you kept the suit on and had the temperature problem. And, I noticed that, finally as you got ready to make your entry (or reentry, depending on which way you like it), a warning light came on.

[User] Just about the 19th orbit.

[Assistant] That must’ve been a thrill.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Gemini.

[Assistant] But, of course, in Mercury you kept the suit on and had the temperature problem. And, I noticed that, finally as you got ready to make your entry (or reentry, depending on which way you like it), a warning light came on.

[User] Just about the 19th orbit.

[Assistant] That must’ve been a thrill.

[User] Oh, yeah. The .05 g green warning light came on, which is the light that tells you you’re starting to reenter. I was sure that I wasn’t reentering, because there had been nothing to slow down my speed at all. And, of course, as usually happened on these missions, we had long spaces that we were out of radio contact; and I was out of radio contact when this hap¬pened. So when I got in radio contact first time, the Cape was kind of concerned when they heard about this light on. Then we proceeded on the next orbit or so to try to analyze, go through various procedures to try to find what it was. And we realized I was, slowly but surely, having an electrical fire from my relays; and they did short out the inverters. So, eventually I lost my total electrical system.

[Assistant] You lost the total electrical system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just about the 19th orbit.

[Assistant] That must’ve been a thrill.

[User] Oh, yeah. The .05 g green warning light came on, which is the light that tells you you’re starting to reenter. I was sure that I wasn’t reentering, because there had been nothing to slow down my speed at all. And, of course, as usually happened on these missions, we had long spaces that we were out of radio contact; and I was out of radio contact when this hap¬pened. So when I got in radio contact first time, the Cape was kind of concerned when they heard about this light on. Then we proceeded on the next orbit or so to try to analyze, go through various procedures to try to find what it was. And we realized I was, slowly but surely, having an electrical fire from my relays; and they did short out the inverters. So, eventually I lost my total electrical system.

[Assistant] You lost the total electrical system?

[User] The total electrical system.

[Assistant] Can you explain that in terms that I can understand? As a pilot, what does it mean when you’ve lost, literally lost—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. The .05 g green warning light came on, which is the light that tells you you’re starting to reenter. I was sure that I wasn’t reentering, because there had been nothing to slow down my speed at all. And, of course, as usually happened on these missions, we had long spaces that we were out of radio contact; and I was out of radio contact when this hap¬pened. So when I got in radio contact first time, the Cape was kind of concerned when they heard about this light on. Then we proceeded on the next orbit or so to try to analyze, go through various procedures to try to find what it was. And we realized I was, slowly but surely, having an electrical fire from my relays; and they did short out the inverters. So, eventually I lost my total electrical system.

[Assistant] You lost the total electrical system?

[User] The total electrical system.

[Assistant] Can you explain that in terms that I can understand? As a pilot, what does it mean when you’ve lost, literally lost—

[User] Well, it meant that I had the manual push/pull rods to activate the jets for attitude control. I had eyeballs out the window for my attitude—my pitch, roll, and yaw attitude. I had a wrist¬watch for timing. And I had to activate each and every one of the relays, and I’d have to manually fire the retros while manually flying the spacecraft. So, everything had to be done manually. I’d have to control the spacecraft all the way through reentry. I’d have to put my drogue out manually. And I’d have to deploy my parachute manually. I’d have to deploy the landing bag manually.

[Assistant] It sounds to me like you just described why they needed test pilots to fly in the early days of the space program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The total electrical system.

[Assistant] Can you explain that in terms that I can understand? As a pilot, what does it mean when you’ve lost, literally lost—

[User] Well, it meant that I had the manual push/pull rods to activate the jets for attitude control. I had eyeballs out the window for my attitude—my pitch, roll, and yaw attitude. I had a wrist¬watch for timing. And I had to activate each and every one of the relays, and I’d have to manually fire the retros while manually flying the spacecraft. So, everything had to be done manually. I’d have to control the spacecraft all the way through reentry. I’d have to put my drogue out manually. And I’d have to deploy my parachute manually. I’d have to deploy the landing bag manually.

[Assistant] It sounds to me like you just described why they needed test pilots to fly in the early days of the space program.

[User] Well, that’s true; and that’s really what we’d been wanting to do all along. So, it just gave me the opportunity to do what we’d been wanting to do.

[Assistant] How close to the landing target did you come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it meant that I had the manual push/pull rods to activate the jets for attitude control. I had eyeballs out the window for my attitude—my pitch, roll, and yaw attitude. I had a wrist¬watch for timing. And I had to activate each and every one of the relays, and I’d have to manually fire the retros while manually flying the spacecraft. So, everything had to be done manually. I’d have to control the spacecraft all the way through reentry. I’d have to put my drogue out manually. And I’d have to deploy my parachute manually. I’d have to deploy the landing bag manually.

[Assistant] It sounds to me like you just described why they needed test pilots to fly in the early days of the space program.

[User] Well, that’s true; and that’s really what we’d been wanting to do all along. So, it just gave me the opportunity to do what we’d been wanting to do.

[Assistant] How close to the landing target did you come?

[User] Well, I was pretty lucky on that. I have a picture, looking right up the tower, the USS Kearsarge’s tower, the main chute is opening. So I was right over the carrier, and the wind drifted me about, roughly, two miles away. So they could just taxi over and put out a boon, and hoist me onboard; and I got out of the spacecraft right on the carrier then.

[Assistant] Effectively, that pretty well rang down the curtain on Mercury, didn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s true; and that’s really what we’d been wanting to do all along. So, it just gave me the opportunity to do what we’d been wanting to do.

[Assistant] How close to the landing target did you come?

[User] Well, I was pretty lucky on that. I have a picture, looking right up the tower, the USS Kearsarge’s tower, the main chute is opening. So I was right over the carrier, and the wind drifted me about, roughly, two miles away. So they could just taxi over and put out a boon, and hoist me onboard; and I got out of the spacecraft right on the carrier then.

[Assistant] Effectively, that pretty well rang down the curtain on Mercury, didn’t it?

[User] Yes. We were hoping to have another Mercury flight, but [there] was a little soul-searching about whether it would interfere with the upcoming Gemini mission. And by this time, then, we had been dedicated by the President [John F. Kennedy] that we were going to go to the Moon and go within that decade. Anything we could do to cut down time we needed to do. So, the last Mercury flight was eliminated in order to speed up getting into Gemini.

[Assistant] Well, I guess that brings us to Gemini. What about the transition from Mercury to Gemini? In an engineering sense, what did you do, Gordo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was pretty lucky on that. I have a picture, looking right up the tower, the USS Kearsarge’s tower, the main chute is opening. So I was right over the carrier, and the wind drifted me about, roughly, two miles away. So they could just taxi over and put out a boon, and hoist me onboard; and I got out of the spacecraft right on the carrier then.

[Assistant] Effectively, that pretty well rang down the curtain on Mercury, didn’t it?

[User] Yes. We were hoping to have another Mercury flight, but [there] was a little soul-searching about whether it would interfere with the upcoming Gemini mission. And by this time, then, we had been dedicated by the President [John F. Kennedy] that we were going to go to the Moon and go within that decade. Anything we could do to cut down time we needed to do. So, the last Mercury flight was eliminated in order to speed up getting into Gemini.

[Assistant] Well, I guess that brings us to Gemini. What about the transition from Mercury to Gemini? In an engineering sense, what did you do, Gordo?

[User] Well, Gemini was really just an enlarged Mercury. We made improvements on the Mercury. We went from a 1- to a 2-pilot crew so you could do more tasks. And we moved all of the systems out into an adapter section to get them out of the spacecraft. The noise level in Mercury was really quite high because of the inverters and the motors and all the things running right in the same shell you were in. So, in Gemini then, we moved all of these systems out into an adapter section. We needed more room, too, for putting in fuel cells and batteries and a propulsion system to be able to do a little bit of orbital maneuvering for rendezvous. So Gemini, then, was going to be the mission to really and truly test all the systems and get them all ironed out and tested and ready to go for the Apollo Program to do the lunar mission.

[Assistant] You worked on Gemini III before men actually flew in Gemini, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We were hoping to have another Mercury flight, but [there] was a little soul-searching about whether it would interfere with the upcoming Gemini mission. And by this time, then, we had been dedicated by the President [John F. Kennedy] that we were going to go to the Moon and go within that decade. Anything we could do to cut down time we needed to do. So, the last Mercury flight was eliminated in order to speed up getting into Gemini.

[Assistant] Well, I guess that brings us to Gemini. What about the transition from Mercury to Gemini? In an engineering sense, what did you do, Gordo?

[User] Well, Gemini was really just an enlarged Mercury. We made improvements on the Mercury. We went from a 1- to a 2-pilot crew so you could do more tasks. And we moved all of the systems out into an adapter section to get them out of the spacecraft. The noise level in Mercury was really quite high because of the inverters and the motors and all the things running right in the same shell you were in. So, in Gemini then, we moved all of these systems out into an adapter section. We needed more room, too, for putting in fuel cells and batteries and a propulsion system to be able to do a little bit of orbital maneuvering for rendezvous. So Gemini, then, was going to be the mission to really and truly test all the systems and get them all ironed out and tested and ready to go for the Apollo Program to do the lunar mission.

[Assistant] You worked on Gemini III before men actually flew in Gemini, didn’t you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you do on that flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Gemini was really just an enlarged Mercury. We made improvements on the Mercury. We went from a 1- to a 2-pilot crew so you could do more tasks. And we moved all of the systems out into an adapter section to get them out of the spacecraft. The noise level in Mercury was really quite high because of the inverters and the motors and all the things running right in the same shell you were in. So, in Gemini then, we moved all of these systems out into an adapter section. We needed more room, too, for putting in fuel cells and batteries and a propulsion system to be able to do a little bit of orbital maneuvering for rendezvous. So Gemini, then, was going to be the mission to really and truly test all the systems and get them all ironed out and tested and ready to go for the Apollo Program to do the lunar mission.

[Assistant] You worked on Gemini III before men actually flew in Gemini, didn’t you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you do on that flight?

[User] Well, I didn’t fly.

[Assistant] No. I said you worked on it before men flew in Gemini.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What did you do on that flight?

[User] Well, I didn’t fly.

[Assistant] No. I said you worked on it before men flew in Gemini.

[User] On yeah. Well, there was a little bit of a transition, of course, in getting your systems going, getting the positioning of where you were going to locate things; how you’d take all the equipment they wanted you to take, because you really had less space per person than you did in Mercury; but, thankfully, it was a little more strategically arranged so that you had a little more usable room, really. And that was mainly because we had these storage lockers that were in back of you, and you could squirm round and take equipment in and out of those storage lockers.

[Assistant] With Gemini IV, Mercury Control moved to Houston and became Mission Control. With Gemini V, you were ready to fly again. Tell me about your partner on that flight as you got ready for it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a little sight that we used for photography as well as for radar and all that type of thing that had a little lighted crosshair on it. The sight broke down, so we had a little tool kit on board. We took that all apart and repaired it, and got it operable again. We had a number of cameras that gave us some little minor problems that we repaired. We were losing our thrusters; they were clogging up and just spitting liquid instead of igniting; we’d lost approx¬imately half our thrusters, so we devised a scheme. We had a purge exit for hydrogen on one side of the fuel cell, hydrogen on one side, and a purge nozzle on the other side for oxygen; and then we had a urine dump on the bottom. So at the right time, we could purge hydrogen, purge oxygen, and dump urine. That gave us three more attitude thrusters. By really work¬ing diligently at it, even though we lost a lot of our attitude control, we could lumber along and finally get the attitude we had to, to do a lot of the experiments we wanted to do.

[Assistant] It sounds to me like you and your partner, Pete Conrad, made quite a team. Perhaps it might be a good idea to evaluate him as your right hand or your left hand, or the way in which the two of you made a pair of hands that solved problems.

[User] We worked very well together. Pete’s a very, very go-getting type guy. He’s a—

[Assistant] Fun-loving guy, too, isn’t he?

[User] Yeah, he’s very capable.

[Assistant] He likes to laugh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We worked very well together. Pete’s a very, very go-getting type guy. He’s a—

[Assistant] Fun-loving guy, too, isn’t he?

[User] Yeah, he’s very capable.

[Assistant] He likes to laugh.

[User] Yeah, he does. He’s got a lot of good humor. We had to have a good sense of humor about a lot of things, because it did get long and arduous.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, you had to slow down just a bit because of your power limitations. That must’ve made life a little boring from time to time. Was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, he’s very capable.

[Assistant] He likes to laugh.

[User] Yeah, he does. He’s got a lot of good humor. We had to have a good sense of humor about a lot of things, because it did get long and arduous.

[Assistant] As a matter of fact, you had to slow down just a bit because of your power limitations. That must’ve made life a little boring from time to time. Was it?

[User] Yeah, it got a little boring not being able to do all the things we really had planned on doing. You know, a number of things; we were having to slow down when we did do them. Some of them we caught up on a little later when we got power back up. But others, we had to skip.

[Assistant] When the time came to enter, that’s where you picked up the pace. Not because of anything in space, but because of events down below. Do you remember that? I’m thinking of the fact that you had to accelerate your landing, because Hurricane Betsy was moving in to your planned landing area. So could you cover that base for us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we sure grew a great beard. I had a better beard than Pete’s. [chuckles] We had a pretty good heavy beard. Surprisingly, I don’t think I was any [more tired] than I was after my Mercury flight. Of course, we could move around a little more and we also had learned we needed to exercise a bit, so we’d carried a bungee along with us which we daily got a little exercise with, pulling this bungee. I think, really, we felt we were in pretty good shape. In fact, we felt we’d kept such a neat spacecraft that we felt we were really pretty neat and trim and clean when we got off on the carrier. And only when you’d see people passing out alongside did you realize you really were a little odiferous from all the sweat of 8 days.

[Assistant] [laughs] You know, that’s a factor that most people never think of. They think of space as being a wonderful place to be, and there’s never any negative side to it. Are there any neg¬ative factors to flying in space? Or is it all happiness and joy? Or is it what you look back on?

[User] Oh, I think, you know, certainly there are some negative factors involved. You have to compromise a lot of things you do. Even in zero gravity, as much fun as it is, you have to learn how to use it properly; and even in something like Skylab, you had to learn to fasten yourself down, secure yourself down, in a position to do any work under zero gravity. So it has some adversities as well as advantages.

[Assistant] After Gemini V, you never got a chance to fly again.

[User] No, I had the Gemini XII backup team, and I had the Apollo 10 backup team. And I headed up several things, such as Apollo Flight Operations for a while. I headed up Skylab prior to that; and then I headed up the Shuttle Operations input, design input.

[Assistant] But, you never got the chance to fly again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think, you know, certainly there are some negative factors involved. You have to compromise a lot of things you do. Even in zero gravity, as much fun as it is, you have to learn how to use it properly; and even in something like Skylab, you had to learn to fasten yourself down, secure yourself down, in a position to do any work under zero gravity. So it has some adversities as well as advantages.

[Assistant] After Gemini V, you never got a chance to fly again.

[User] No, I had the Gemini XII backup team, and I had the Apollo 10 backup team. And I headed up several things, such as Apollo Flight Operations for a while. I headed up Skylab prior to that; and then I headed up the Shuttle Operations input, design input.

[Assistant] But, you never got the chance to fly again.

[User] I never got a chance to fly again.

[Assistant] Any idea why that was? Or was it that there were many people beating on the door?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I had the Gemini XII backup team, and I had the Apollo 10 backup team. And I headed up several things, such as Apollo Flight Operations for a while. I headed up Skylab prior to that; and then I headed up the Shuttle Operations input, design input.

[Assistant] But, you never got the chance to fly again.

[User] I never got a chance to fly again.

[Assistant] Any idea why that was? Or was it that there were many people beating on the door?

[User] Well, I have some ideas. But who knows why, what all is involved.

[Assistant] Right after the Gemini mission, you went on an around-the-world tour, didn’t you, you and Pete?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never got a chance to fly again.

[Assistant] Any idea why that was? Or was it that there were many people beating on the door?

[User] Well, I have some ideas. But who knows why, what all is involved.

[Assistant] Right after the Gemini mission, you went on an around-the-world tour, didn’t you, you and Pete?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember anything about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] And Leonov eventually wound up being commander during Apollo-Soyuz.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Alexei. How about Belyayev?

[User] Belyayev died about 3 years later of pneumonia.

[Assistant] But at least it was a beginning of working relationships, astronauts and cosmonauts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Alexei. How about Belyayev?

[User] Belyayev died about 3 years later of pneumonia.

[Assistant] But at least it was a beginning of working relationships, astronauts and cosmonauts.

[User] Following that, some time after that then, General [Georgy T.] Beregovoy and Kalapistov brought their families and came over to the States; I gave them a two-month tour of the United States, in fact. And I think that was the beginning of the end of communism in Russia; because when they went home, they were very free to tell all of their friends about what advantages Americans really have, even the lower-echelon Americans have, compared to what they have in Russia.

[Assistant] It was two months. Where did you take them in the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Belyayev died about 3 years later of pneumonia.

[Assistant] But at least it was a beginning of working relationships, astronauts and cosmonauts.

[User] Following that, some time after that then, General [Georgy T.] Beregovoy and Kalapistov brought their families and came over to the States; I gave them a two-month tour of the United States, in fact. And I think that was the beginning of the end of communism in Russia; because when they went home, they were very free to tell all of their friends about what advantages Americans really have, even the lower-echelon Americans have, compared to what they have in Russia.

[Assistant] It was two months. Where did you take them in the United States?

[User] All over. We hit everywhere, including the Great Canyon. They had a ball, and we did, too.

[Assistant] Supermarkets, that kind of thing, figure largely in it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Following that, some time after that then, General [Georgy T.] Beregovoy and Kalapistov brought their families and came over to the States; I gave them a two-month tour of the United States, in fact. And I think that was the beginning of the end of communism in Russia; because when they went home, they were very free to tell all of their friends about what advantages Americans really have, even the lower-echelon Americans have, compared to what they have in Russia.

[Assistant] It was two months. Where did you take them in the United States?

[User] All over. We hit everywhere, including the Great Canyon. They had a ball, and we did, too.

[Assistant] Supermarkets, that kind of thing, figure largely in it?

[User] Oh yeah. We went to General Motors in Detroit and they were given a big, formal briefing; and I got off and called [one] of my friends, who [was] very high-echelon in General Motors, and said, “These guys really would like to see some experimental automobiles.” With that, he came up and said, “Enough of all this formalized stuff. Let’s take them down and put them in some automobiles.” And they turned them loose on the streets of Detroit in these new, experimental automobiles; and they loved it.

[Assistant] This brings to mind the fact that you always had a more-than-passing interest in things auto¬motive as well as things astronautical. Have you ever maintained that interest in racing cars?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All over. We hit everywhere, including the Great Canyon. They had a ball, and we did, too.

[Assistant] Supermarkets, that kind of thing, figure largely in it?

[User] Oh yeah. We went to General Motors in Detroit and they were given a big, formal briefing; and I got off and called [one] of my friends, who [was] very high-echelon in General Motors, and said, “These guys really would like to see some experimental automobiles.” With that, he came up and said, “Enough of all this formalized stuff. Let’s take them down and put them in some automobiles.” And they turned them loose on the streets of Detroit in these new, experimental automobiles; and they loved it.

[Assistant] This brings to mind the fact that you always had a more-than-passing interest in things auto¬motive as well as things astronautical. Have you ever maintained that interest in racing cars?

[User] Oh, yeah. I’m still interested in them. I haven’t really actively raced any of them the last few years, but I’m still very interested; and I still work on developing engines.

[Assistant] Even when you were in the program, I remember you and Gus Grissom worked on things like high-performance aircraft, spacecraft, boats, the whole thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. We went to General Motors in Detroit and they were given a big, formal briefing; and I got off and called [one] of my friends, who [was] very high-echelon in General Motors, and said, “These guys really would like to see some experimental automobiles.” With that, he came up and said, “Enough of all this formalized stuff. Let’s take them down and put them in some automobiles.” And they turned them loose on the streets of Detroit in these new, experimental automobiles; and they loved it.

[Assistant] This brings to mind the fact that you always had a more-than-passing interest in things auto¬motive as well as things astronautical. Have you ever maintained that interest in racing cars?

[User] Oh, yeah. I’m still interested in them. I haven’t really actively raced any of them the last few years, but I’m still very interested; and I still work on developing engines.

[Assistant] Even when you were in the program, I remember you and Gus Grissom worked on things like high-performance aircraft, spacecraft, boats, the whole thing.

[User] Boats, airplanes, cars.

[Assistant] You name it, you were into it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. I’m still interested in them. I haven’t really actively raced any of them the last few years, but I’m still very interested; and I still work on developing engines.

[Assistant] Even when you were in the program, I remember you and Gus Grissom worked on things like high-performance aircraft, spacecraft, boats, the whole thing.

[User] Boats, airplanes, cars.

[Assistant] You name it, you were into it.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s what an engineer does for a hobby?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boats, airplanes, cars.

[Assistant] You name it, you were into it.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s what an engineer does for a hobby?

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] [laughs] As well as a living. Well now that John Glenn’s elected to fly in space again, I wonder: Would you like to go up again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s what an engineer does for a hobby?

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] [laughs] As well as a living. Well now that John Glenn’s elected to fly in space again, I wonder: Would you like to go up again?

[User] Sure, and I particularly want to go on the Mars mission.

[Assistant] Any chance that you would make it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] [laughs] As well as a living. Well now that John Glenn’s elected to fly in space again, I wonder: Would you like to go up again?

[User] Sure, and I particularly want to go on the Mars mission.

[Assistant] Any chance that you would make it?

[User] Well, I would hope so. I would certainly be very happy to do so.

[Assistant] I’m going to give you a shot at something here, too, that was specifically asked of us, you and me. Because, when John flies, NASA’s figuring that they just might like to have a few applicable quotes from people like yourself who know John well, and get reactions from you, and others, about what you really think of John’s flying again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, and I particularly want to go on the Mars mission.

[Assistant] Any chance that you would make it?

[User] Well, I would hope so. I would certainly be very happy to do so.

[Assistant] I’m going to give you a shot at something here, too, that was specifically asked of us, you and me. Because, when John flies, NASA’s figuring that they just might like to have a few applicable quotes from people like yourself who know John well, and get reactions from you, and others, about what you really think of John’s flying again.

[User] Well, I think it’s great. I’m glad to see it, because John will do a good job for them. And here’s a will-be 77-year-old body that they have had great medical data for 40-some-odd years on. It’ll be a good database. I think it really will gain a lot of medical knowledge about what aging does to the cardiovascular system. Does it hurt it, or doesn’t it hurt it? I think that will be very valuable information. And John will do a good job for them on the mission. I think also NASA can certainly [be] helped with a little good public relations, and I think John will really help them on that, too.

[Assistant] Do you think it will be a high-visibility mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I would hope so. I would certainly be very happy to do so.

[Assistant] I’m going to give you a shot at something here, too, that was specifically asked of us, you and me. Because, when John flies, NASA’s figuring that they just might like to have a few applicable quotes from people like yourself who know John well, and get reactions from you, and others, about what you really think of John’s flying again.

[User] Well, I think it’s great. I’m glad to see it, because John will do a good job for them. And here’s a will-be 77-year-old body that they have had great medical data for 40-some-odd years on. It’ll be a good database. I think it really will gain a lot of medical knowledge about what aging does to the cardiovascular system. Does it hurt it, or doesn’t it hurt it? I think that will be very valuable information. And John will do a good job for them on the mission. I think also NASA can certainly [be] helped with a little good public relations, and I think John will really help them on that, too.

[Assistant] Do you think it will be a high-visibility mission?

[User] Yes, I do.

[Assistant] Of course, it would be if you were to fly it, too, Gordon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think it’s great. I’m glad to see it, because John will do a good job for them. And here’s a will-be 77-year-old body that they have had great medical data for 40-some-odd years on. It’ll be a good database. I think it really will gain a lot of medical knowledge about what aging does to the cardiovascular system. Does it hurt it, or doesn’t it hurt it? I think that will be very valuable information. And John will do a good job for them on the mission. I think also NASA can certainly [be] helped with a little good public relations, and I think John will really help them on that, too.

[Assistant] Do you think it will be a high-visibility mission?

[User] Yes, I do.

[Assistant] Of course, it would be if you were to fly it, too, Gordon.

[User] Well, that’s true.

[Assistant] Would you like to be his backup?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I do.

[Assistant] Of course, it would be if you were to fly it, too, Gordon.

[User] Well, that’s true.

[Assistant] Would you like to be his backup?

[User] Oh, possibly, yeah. I would enjoy taking the flight. But as I say, if I had my preference, I’d really like to be on a Mars mission because I strongly feel that we are way, way overdue getting back to the Moon and getting a manned mission to Mars.

[Assistant] From all indications, if there ever is a Mars mission, it’s going to be quite some time down¬stream. Do you think that, perhaps, your age might defeat that goal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s true.

[Assistant] Would you like to be his backup?

[User] Oh, possibly, yeah. I would enjoy taking the flight. But as I say, if I had my preference, I’d really like to be on a Mars mission because I strongly feel that we are way, way overdue getting back to the Moon and getting a manned mission to Mars.

[Assistant] From all indications, if there ever is a Mars mission, it’s going to be quite some time down¬stream. Do you think that, perhaps, your age might defeat that goal?

[User] Well, possibly. I would hope not, but—

[Assistant] You have a lot of good years left, but how many will it take before we go to Mars, do you think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, possibly, yeah. I would enjoy taking the flight. But as I say, if I had my preference, I’d really like to be on a Mars mission because I strongly feel that we are way, way overdue getting back to the Moon and getting a manned mission to Mars.

[Assistant] From all indications, if there ever is a Mars mission, it’s going to be quite some time down¬stream. Do you think that, perhaps, your age might defeat that goal?

[User] Well, possibly. I would hope not, but—

[Assistant] You have a lot of good years left, but how many will it take before we go to Mars, do you think?

[User] Well, that’s the thing that worries me. I think we’ve been way too many years already going to Mars. We should long ago have been there with a manned mission.

[Assistant] You think the same thing about going back to the Moon, don’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, possibly. I would hope not, but—

[Assistant] You have a lot of good years left, but how many will it take before we go to Mars, do you think?

[User] Well, that’s the thing that worries me. I think we’ve been way too many years already going to Mars. We should long ago have been there with a manned mission.

[Assistant] You think the same thing about going back to the Moon, don’t you?

[User] Yes, I do.

[Assistant] Even the Space Station, what are your impressions of the Space Station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that’s the thing that worries me. I think we’ve been way too many years already going to Mars. We should long ago have been there with a manned mission.

[Assistant] You think the same thing about going back to the Moon, don’t you?

[User] Yes, I do.

[Assistant] Even the Space Station, what are your impressions of the Space Station?

[User] I think the Space Station is one of the things—What’s going to cause it to be so valuable is it’s going to cause a large number of nations to start working together in space. And if we can do cooperative ventures in space, we can do a lot more; we can afford to do a lot more in space. I think this will be a great testing-ground for getting a number of countries really to working together. Of course, scientifically, we’ll get a lot out of the Space Station. I think it will be very worthwhile from a scientific point of view. But, I think the thing that’s going to interest people in the real, real nuts-and-bolts of really finding out what is out in space is when we go back to the Moon, and when we get out to Mars, and when we go mine the aste¬roids, and do a few things like that. Incidentally, there are some commercial groups that are starting out now that I think, before very long, we’re going to see them launching to mine the [asteroids], because it is a very lucrative venture. If it can’t be done under NASA, well, let’s do it commercially.

[Assistant] Now, Gordon, I’ve asked an awful lot of questions. It could be that I’ve failed to ask one that you particularly would like to have had me ask. If so, right now’s the time to cover anything that your heart desires. Is there something that you’d like to bring up for posterity, dealing with the space program—past, present, or future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rural public health and nutrition.

[Assistant] Rural public health and nutrition project. Reid was also a trainer for groups going to India from '69 to '70. Start by telling me about yourself now. What your career is like, what your family's like, what your residence and your interests are?

[User] Let's see. Right now, I am an organizational development trainer, executive coach, that works with anybody in organizations who need to improve their performance. And I work with nonprofits and international organizations and multinational industries. I've worked for the UN, for the IMF, for USAID, and have worked in Ethiopia, Kenya, Pakistan, India, Aruba. Uh. And throughout Europe, in the United States. And live in Santa Barbara with my partner, Peter Wright. We've been together 25 years and I just last summer returned from my 35th Peace Corps reunion. Not the 35th, 35th anniversary, not our 35th reunion. It was like our second or third reunion so, in Tahoe, which, and all but three people in our group attended. So.

[Assistant] Wonderful, wonderful. Okay. Anything else you want to say?

[User] No, that's fine.

[Assistant] We'll get back to that as we go. Let's go back now to the year before you joined the Peace Corps and talk about your life then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, interestingly enough, when I went to training, even though I had a year of Hindi, they put me in half of our group that was going to Kerala, that speaks Malayalam and which really ticked me off. And I went in to the, the training officer, and I asked in a very passive aggressive sort of way, what criteria did you use to assign us to whether we were going to a Malayalam group or a Hindi speaking group? And they said, oh, well, we considered your background. When it was very apparent that they did every other one in the alphabet in the list. And so I said, well that's very interesting. I speak Hindi and you put me in the Malayalam group and they said, oh yes, you do? You didn't put that on your application. I said, oh yes I did. Many, many, many, many times. And so the woman interviewed me, started speaking Hindi to me, and I started speaking Hindi to her back. And she said, well, we really can't make that change unless you can talk somebody else in the other group into switching with you. And I said, well, if I can't talk anybody, then I'm leaving this training because I spent a year of my life.

[Assistant] Getting ready.

[User] Getting ready for this and I don't want that to go down the tubes. So luckily enough, I went in and a woman, a wonderful woman named Kathleen Sperry switched. Uh, no. A guy named George Thompson switched places, which started. A couple of other people said, well, if he can switch, then I can switch. So we, several of us switched and that seemed okay.

[Assistant] It turned out to be okay.

[User] Yeah. Turned out okay.

[Assistant] Go back a little bit before that to the point of why you wanted to join the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Getting ready for this and I don't want that to go down the tubes. So luckily enough, I went in and a woman, a wonderful woman named Kathleen Sperry switched. Uh, no. A guy named George Thompson switched places, which started. A couple of other people said, well, if he can switch, then I can switch. So we, several of us switched and that seemed okay.

[Assistant] It turned out to be okay.

[User] Yeah. Turned out okay.

[Assistant] Go back a little bit before that to the point of why you wanted to join the Peace Corps.

[User] I wanted, I wanted to join the Peace Corps because I didn't know what the heck I was going to do with my life. I was, I thought I wanted to be a physician, but I wasn't really too sure. And I was really tired of school. And I just could not seem to want to go off into, uh, into graduate school.

[Assistant] But you were also internationally interested with your dad's travels?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Turned out okay.

[Assistant] Go back a little bit before that to the point of why you wanted to join the Peace Corps.

[User] I wanted, I wanted to join the Peace Corps because I didn't know what the heck I was going to do with my life. I was, I thought I wanted to be a physician, but I wasn't really too sure. And I was really tired of school. And I just could not seem to want to go off into, uh, into graduate school.

[Assistant] But you were also internationally interested with your dad's travels?

[User] Yeah, my dad had been a technical guy for an oil exploration company.

[Assistant] Ready for adventure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wanted, I wanted to join the Peace Corps because I didn't know what the heck I was going to do with my life. I was, I thought I wanted to be a physician, but I wasn't really too sure. And I was really tired of school. And I just could not seem to want to go off into, uh, into graduate school.

[Assistant] But you were also internationally interested with your dad's travels?

[User] Yeah, my dad had been a technical guy for an oil exploration company.

[Assistant] Ready for adventure.

[User] Yes, he would. He went off to Egypt and Ethiopia and Venezuela and would bring back, you know, spears and camel bells and fezs and all of that sort of stuff. So I had a great show and tell in kindergarten with camel bells and fezs and stuff like that. So. And that was basically the reason.

[Assistant] Okay. Wonderful. Anything else around that time? What your friends and family thought?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, my dad had been a technical guy for an oil exploration company.

[Assistant] Ready for adventure.

[User] Yes, he would. He went off to Egypt and Ethiopia and Venezuela and would bring back, you know, spears and camel bells and fezs and all of that sort of stuff. So I had a great show and tell in kindergarten with camel bells and fezs and stuff like that. So. And that was basically the reason.

[Assistant] Okay. Wonderful. Anything else around that time? What your friends and family thought?

[User] Oh, I had to, let's see. My, my, I. A lot of my friends, my high school friends all thought I was crazy because they were all intellectuals and were going to go off into graduate school immediately. And I felt a little bit of resentment because I thought, oh well, I'm going to come back and be two years behind them in that achievement mode. And of course, in the long run, that didn't matter at all. And, um.

[Assistant] How about family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he would. He went off to Egypt and Ethiopia and Venezuela and would bring back, you know, spears and camel bells and fezs and all of that sort of stuff. So I had a great show and tell in kindergarten with camel bells and fezs and stuff like that. So. And that was basically the reason.

[Assistant] Okay. Wonderful. Anything else around that time? What your friends and family thought?

[User] Oh, I had to, let's see. My, my, I. A lot of my friends, my high school friends all thought I was crazy because they were all intellectuals and were going to go off into graduate school immediately. And I felt a little bit of resentment because I thought, oh well, I'm going to come back and be two years behind them in that achievement mode. And of course, in the long run, that didn't matter at all. And, um.

[Assistant] How about family?

[User] My parents knew that I had to do what I had to do. My mother did. I did prepare, uh, start preparing my parents like a year beforehand. You know, announcing that I was going to go into the Peace Corps and that I was taking the exam and just to give them time, especially my mother time, to adjust to it all.

[Assistant] So there was a little bit of hesitancy on her part.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I had to, let's see. My, my, I. A lot of my friends, my high school friends all thought I was crazy because they were all intellectuals and were going to go off into graduate school immediately. And I felt a little bit of resentment because I thought, oh well, I'm going to come back and be two years behind them in that achievement mode. And of course, in the long run, that didn't matter at all. And, um.

[Assistant] How about family?

[User] My parents knew that I had to do what I had to do. My mother did. I did prepare, uh, start preparing my parents like a year beforehand. You know, announcing that I was going to go into the Peace Corps and that I was taking the exam and just to give them time, especially my mother time, to adjust to it all.

[Assistant] So there was a little bit of hesitancy on her part.

[User] Yes. And then, of course, I went to India and she said, well, you know, it's exactly 12 hours away from Central Standard Time. You couldn't get any further away from us than you. That was, that was her comment. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay, so before you go to India, talk about the training. You were in this rural health program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and we trained at the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User]
And our, the head of our training group was Roger Wangsness. And, um, you know, it was, it was, uh, it was very, very interesting. It was, it turned out to be very cold. They sent us up to an Indian reservation in northern Wisconsin to live in tents for two weeks, I guess to just toughen us up so that we could. Because we were going to live in some pretty rough conditions and we had to go through that. And we had to have our little project and what have you. And I ended up, my big project was helping clean up and fix a chicken coop on the Indian reservation so that they could get more chickens in. And also to, a couple of us laid a concrete platform around a well, a pump well. The well had been, was in pretty bad shape and was always muddy. And so we laid a concrete platform around it. That was my big, and we you know, you played the game. You knew, you knew, you knew what you had to do to get selected. So you did.

And of course, I was really. My biggest fear in not being selected was, was the physical aspect of it. And then like one week or two weeks into training, I ended up getting a terrible, terrible stone bruise on my heel and could not walk with, except with a cane. So that ruled out running any laps. So I didn't know what to do. And I thought they were going, they were going to think I was malingering. And since I was a water safety instructor and there were some people there that could not swim, I said, okay, what I'll do is I'll just teach these people to swim in our group. And so I became.

[Assistant] There always a, you had a solution.

[User] Yeah, I became the, I became a swimming instructor for two or three people that were really fearful of the water and needed special help. And so I.

[Assistant] They didn't have anybody else to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I became the, I became a swimming instructor for two or three people that were really fearful of the water and needed special help. And so I.

[Assistant] They didn't have anybody else to do that?

[User] Well, there were other instructors, but they were all, you know, keeping people swimming laps and stuff like that. And, and, uh. Of course we had to go through.

[Assistant] [inaudible]

[User] Yeah, I figured I was going to get, people were, they were going to judge, say bad things about me in the deselection.

[Assistant] You've said that word several times now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I figured I was going to get, people were, they were going to judge, say bad things about me in the deselection.

[Assistant] You've said that word several times now.

[User] What, the?

[Assistant] The deselection.

[User] Oh. Well, it was a very nasty thing in, in our group, the way they were doing it. They would, they would come in and they would divide. They would give people envelopes to go from one room, to go to one room or the other. And the people that didn't show up in the room were sent back to the dormitories to pack and to leave before we were let out of the room. And so we really didn't even get a chance to say goodbye. Or if we did, they came in and said goodbye and then left. It was really Machiavellian. It was really not a nice way to put an end to that kind of relationship. So everybody had great fear and I. Intellectually, you know, killing the chickens and building the chicken houses and, uh, you know, I'd studied South Asian culture in anthropology, so I, there was no problem with any of that. And I had a, I was the top language, needless to say, the top language student in Hindi because I'd already had a year of Hindi.

[Assistant] And how many were you in your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What, the?

[Assistant] The deselection.

[User] Oh. Well, it was a very nasty thing in, in our group, the way they were doing it. They would, they would come in and they would divide. They would give people envelopes to go from one room, to go to one room or the other. And the people that didn't show up in the room were sent back to the dormitories to pack and to leave before we were let out of the room. And so we really didn't even get a chance to say goodbye. Or if we did, they came in and said goodbye and then left. It was really Machiavellian. It was really not a nice way to put an end to that kind of relationship. So everybody had great fear and I. Intellectually, you know, killing the chickens and building the chicken houses and, uh, you know, I'd studied South Asian culture in anthropology, so I, there was no problem with any of that. And I had a, I was the top language, needless to say, the top language student in Hindi because I'd already had a year of Hindi.

[Assistant] And how many were you in your group?

[User] Oh, 30. India 20A was like 35, something like that. I can't remember the exact number. There was another whole half of our group that we never even met. It was called 20B, and they went to different states and, but they were also rural public health and nutrition, and trained at different places.

[Assistant] So you didn't know them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh. Well, it was a very nasty thing in, in our group, the way they were doing it. They would, they would come in and they would divide. They would give people envelopes to go from one room, to go to one room or the other. And the people that didn't show up in the room were sent back to the dormitories to pack and to leave before we were let out of the room. And so we really didn't even get a chance to say goodbye. Or if we did, they came in and said goodbye and then left. It was really Machiavellian. It was really not a nice way to put an end to that kind of relationship. So everybody had great fear and I. Intellectually, you know, killing the chickens and building the chicken houses and, uh, you know, I'd studied South Asian culture in anthropology, so I, there was no problem with any of that. And I had a, I was the top language, needless to say, the top language student in Hindi because I'd already had a year of Hindi.

[Assistant] And how many were you in your group?

[User] Oh, 30. India 20A was like 35, something like that. I can't remember the exact number. There was another whole half of our group that we never even met. It was called 20B, and they went to different states and, but they were also rural public health and nutrition, and trained at different places.

[Assistant] So you didn't know them.

[User] And we met them over in India. If we ran into them, it was no big deal.

[Assistant] So your group is 35.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, 30. India 20A was like 35, something like that. I can't remember the exact number. There was another whole half of our group that we never even met. It was called 20B, and they went to different states and, but they were also rural public health and nutrition, and trained at different places.

[Assistant] So you didn't know them.

[User] And we met them over in India. If we ran into them, it was no big deal.

[Assistant] So your group is 35.

[User] Yeah, around that.

[Assistant] Were there any married couples or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we met them over in India. If we ran into them, it was no big deal.

[Assistant] So your group is 35.

[User] Yeah, around that.

[Assistant] Were there any married couples or?

[User] No married couples in it, though currently I think there are like six married couples out of it. One couple got married during Peace Corps and then three or four years after Peace Corps, they got divorced. But then out of that, out of the remaining, everybody, five or six couples from the, uh, from the group got married afterwards and they're all together still. So and I was, and my roommate got married. My Peace Corps roommate got married, oh, three or four months after he got back with a woman who was in the Peace Corps. And I was best man in his wedding. And, you know, it had, all the women wore saris and the men, we had tuxes, but it was an Indian themed wedding so.

[Assistant] Anything else around that? The project you were invited into, how you prepared yourself to go, and move away from your life for two years and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, around that.

[Assistant] Were there any married couples or?

[User] No married couples in it, though currently I think there are like six married couples out of it. One couple got married during Peace Corps and then three or four years after Peace Corps, they got divorced. But then out of that, out of the remaining, everybody, five or six couples from the, uh, from the group got married afterwards and they're all together still. So and I was, and my roommate got married. My Peace Corps roommate got married, oh, three or four months after he got back with a woman who was in the Peace Corps. And I was best man in his wedding. And, you know, it had, all the women wore saris and the men, we had tuxes, but it was an Indian themed wedding so.

[Assistant] Anything else around that? The project you were invited into, how you prepared yourself to go, and move away from your life for two years and?

[User] No. I remember going back and preparing before we. We were allowed to go home for two weeks or something like that, or a week before we left. And that happened to be around Thanksgiving. So we had a nice Thanksgiving. And I remember my dad, uh, buying me a leather satchel so that I could travel with it and keep my radio, because we bought a Zenith shortwave radio. I need to have, needed to have the radio. And we were told, of course, things to take and not to take at that time. And I went out and actually bought a whole bunch of warfarin, which is rat poison, because, you know, going to poison all the rats. And, you know, I think we didn't even use it or we did. I donated it to the ag college or something like that.

[Assistant] But you thought you would need it?