[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They generally. Yeah. And I didn't, I don't recall a teacher having multiple wives, actually, or any of the school principals or administrators that I worked with. But the governor of the province or a wealthy landowner or a mullah or so, you know, people of influence and wealth and power might have and that's one of the rules, is you don't you can't have more than one if you can't afford it. So I guess.

[Assistant] Well, that's interesting. And it should be kind of a rule with children, too.

[User] Yeah. And another guideline is that, you know, if your brother dies, someone needs to take care of your brother's wife. So things are taking a second wife who's a widow or something, which is a form of social welfare that ties into the Islamic code, too. So that's another thing is respecting other people's religions?

[Assistant] Most definitely.

[User] And recognizing that there's probably values in that religion that you aren't aware of.

[Assistant] So when you first went there, was that all very much eye opening? Just the


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And another guideline is that, you know, if your brother dies, someone needs to take care of your brother's wife. So things are taking a second wife who's a widow or something, which is a form of social welfare that ties into the Islamic code, too. So that's another thing is respecting other people's religions?

[Assistant] Most definitely.

[User] And recognizing that there's probably values in that religion that you aren't aware of.

[Assistant] So when you first went there, was that all very much eye opening? Just the

[User] I was aware of Islamic culture to some extent and teachings. But actually that was one of the reasons I was fascinated when I was offered Afghanistan was that's what I wanted to learn about. I wanted and I wanted to see how other, other religious traditions, you know, affected life and life and culture and family and the strength of the Afghan family and the knowledge of your role in your family was the definition of you and an Afghan cultural sense versus the rugged individual and separate ness that we instill in our individualism here in the U.S. So there was a there's a vast difference, really, in how children are raised. And there's some things that Afghan families have. And our guests, exchange students have learned from their experience with American families. But there are things that we have to learn from, from their shared family responsibilities and respect for people, elders. And, you know, some of the relationships within the family are much stronger in Afghanistan than they are here. And so, I mean, you observe, if you go with the idea and observe something different and value the differences.

[Assistant] Yeah, embrace them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And recognizing that there's probably values in that religion that you aren't aware of.

[Assistant] So when you first went there, was that all very much eye opening? Just the

[User] I was aware of Islamic culture to some extent and teachings. But actually that was one of the reasons I was fascinated when I was offered Afghanistan was that's what I wanted to learn about. I wanted and I wanted to see how other, other religious traditions, you know, affected life and life and culture and family and the strength of the Afghan family and the knowledge of your role in your family was the definition of you and an Afghan cultural sense versus the rugged individual and separate ness that we instill in our individualism here in the U.S. So there was a there's a vast difference, really, in how children are raised. And there's some things that Afghan families have. And our guests, exchange students have learned from their experience with American families. But there are things that we have to learn from, from their shared family responsibilities and respect for people, elders. And, you know, some of the relationships within the family are much stronger in Afghanistan than they are here. And so, I mean, you observe, if you go with the idea and observe something different and value the differences.

[Assistant] Yeah, embrace them.

[User] And look and look at where those differences may have strengths that I didn't anticipate. That's where the surprises came in. Some of the things that I didn't expect would be valuable were great, you know, or some of the things that I thought were good and proper, maybe weren't so good and proper. I mean, at all times. I mean, in all cases, so and so you do a lot of. Cultural adaptation and comparison, and that's one of the things for prospective Peace Corps volunteers, right? Yeah, go into it with, with those ideas in mind. And it can be fun. It could be.

[Assistant] It's so much fun. Did you experience a lot of the loneliness, though? I mean, I've already asked you that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was aware of Islamic culture to some extent and teachings. But actually that was one of the reasons I was fascinated when I was offered Afghanistan was that's what I wanted to learn about. I wanted and I wanted to see how other, other religious traditions, you know, affected life and life and culture and family and the strength of the Afghan family and the knowledge of your role in your family was the definition of you and an Afghan cultural sense versus the rugged individual and separate ness that we instill in our individualism here in the U.S. So there was a there's a vast difference, really, in how children are raised. And there's some things that Afghan families have. And our guests, exchange students have learned from their experience with American families. But there are things that we have to learn from, from their shared family responsibilities and respect for people, elders. And, you know, some of the relationships within the family are much stronger in Afghanistan than they are here. And so, I mean, you observe, if you go with the idea and observe something different and value the differences.

[Assistant] Yeah, embrace them.

[User] And look and look at where those differences may have strengths that I didn't anticipate. That's where the surprises came in. Some of the things that I didn't expect would be valuable were great, you know, or some of the things that I thought were good and proper, maybe weren't so good and proper. I mean, at all times. I mean, in all cases, so and so you do a lot of. Cultural adaptation and comparison, and that's one of the things for prospective Peace Corps volunteers, right? Yeah, go into it with, with those ideas in mind. And it can be fun. It could be.

[Assistant] It's so much fun. Did you experience a lot of the loneliness, though? I mean, I've already asked you that.

[User] No, because there were a lot of.

[Assistant] You with your wife, so that probably helped a little bit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And look and look at where those differences may have strengths that I didn't anticipate. That's where the surprises came in. Some of the things that I didn't expect would be valuable were great, you know, or some of the things that I thought were good and proper, maybe weren't so good and proper. I mean, at all times. I mean, in all cases, so and so you do a lot of. Cultural adaptation and comparison, and that's one of the things for prospective Peace Corps volunteers, right? Yeah, go into it with, with those ideas in mind. And it can be fun. It could be.

[Assistant] It's so much fun. Did you experience a lot of the loneliness, though? I mean, I've already asked you that.

[User] No, because there were a lot of.

[Assistant] You with your wife, so that probably helped a little bit.

[User] Yeah, I mean, two of us were there together and we shared, you know, I go shopping and we cook together and we had electricity at night so we could plug in our radio and we could use batteries on a battery operated shortwave, cassette tapes and shortwave BBC, an American

[Assistant] Voice of America. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, because there were a lot of.

[Assistant] You with your wife, so that probably helped a little bit.

[User] Yeah, I mean, two of us were there together and we shared, you know, I go shopping and we cook together and we had electricity at night so we could plug in our radio and we could use batteries on a battery operated shortwave, cassette tapes and shortwave BBC, an American

[Assistant] Voice of America. Yes.

[User] And listen to tapes that I occasionally get sent, you know. Carole King tapes and things like that, you know that we're the current

[Assistant] Some reminders of home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I mean, two of us were there together and we shared, you know, I go shopping and we cook together and we had electricity at night so we could plug in our radio and we could use batteries on a battery operated shortwave, cassette tapes and shortwave BBC, an American

[Assistant] Voice of America. Yes.

[User] And listen to tapes that I occasionally get sent, you know. Carole King tapes and things like that, you know that we're the current

[Assistant] Some reminders of home.

[User] Yeah, that friends would send things from home that way, or I got a lot of reading done. My wife had been an elementary school bachelors degree, and she took with her an anthology of children's literature and so, you know, I got into some of the children's literature.

[Assistant] Will you read anything that you can put your hands on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And listen to tapes that I occasionally get sent, you know. Carole King tapes and things like that, you know that we're the current

[Assistant] Some reminders of home.

[User] Yeah, that friends would send things from home that way, or I got a lot of reading done. My wife had been an elementary school bachelors degree, and she took with her an anthology of children's literature and so, you know, I got into some of the children's literature.

[Assistant] Will you read anything that you can put your hands on?

[User] Beware the JubJub bird and shun the frumious Bandersnatch. You know, sitting there looking for something to occupy your mind in a long, dark evening with no lights or. And so you find other ways to entertain yourself. I mean my daughter, who is Peace Corps in 98, the school she worked at had email. They didn’t have full time

[Assistant] They already had email? Wow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that friends would send things from home that way, or I got a lot of reading done. My wife had been an elementary school bachelors degree, and she took with her an anthology of children's literature and so, you know, I got into some of the children's literature.

[Assistant] Will you read anything that you can put your hands on?

[User] Beware the JubJub bird and shun the frumious Bandersnatch. You know, sitting there looking for something to occupy your mind in a long, dark evening with no lights or. And so you find other ways to entertain yourself. I mean my daughter, who is Peace Corps in 98, the school she worked at had email. They didn’t have full time

[Assistant] They already had email? Wow.

[User] Well, they didn't have full time internet but she could do email 1998-‘99 at the school so we could exchange messages that way. And, you know, to hear from somebody in two weeks was pretty good when I was in Afghanistan. Oh yeah. Know it's usually a month turn around at least. And we went to the post office to pick up mail.

[Assistant] Exactly. Mail was very exciting when you were a Peace Corps Volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Beware the JubJub bird and shun the frumious Bandersnatch. You know, sitting there looking for something to occupy your mind in a long, dark evening with no lights or. And so you find other ways to entertain yourself. I mean my daughter, who is Peace Corps in 98, the school she worked at had email. They didn’t have full time

[Assistant] They already had email? Wow.

[User] Well, they didn't have full time internet but she could do email 1998-‘99 at the school so we could exchange messages that way. And, you know, to hear from somebody in two weeks was pretty good when I was in Afghanistan. Oh yeah. Know it's usually a month turn around at least. And we went to the post office to pick up mail.

[Assistant] Exactly. Mail was very exciting when you were a Peace Corps Volunteer.

[User] And there was no, no international telephone service unless we went to the Peace Corps office or the embassy.

[Assistant] Which was about a day away.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they didn't have full time internet but she could do email 1998-‘99 at the school so we could exchange messages that way. And, you know, to hear from somebody in two weeks was pretty good when I was in Afghanistan. Oh yeah. Know it's usually a month turn around at least. And we went to the post office to pick up mail.

[Assistant] Exactly. Mail was very exciting when you were a Peace Corps Volunteer.

[User] And there was no, no international telephone service unless we went to the Peace Corps office or the embassy.

[Assistant] Which was about a day away.

[User] Yeah. And even to call Kabul, like in the case of having an emergency kidney stone, you had to go to the telephone telegraph office and the telephone operator had an old pull the plug switchboard and there were only like a dozen phones in town. And so when I picked up, he'd plug them in. But if you wanted to call somebody in Kabul, they had an old rotary dial system which was current here to. Right. And, uh, but the guy would plug it into the Kabul port and turn the crank to generate the electricity and shout into the mouthpiece, Kabul, Kabul. And then he'd get them on the phone and he'd tell them what number you wanted to talk to. And the person answered and they'd put you through to the person like the doctor. The only time we ever used it was called the doctor. So, yeah, that was the that was the high tech start.

[Assistant] Exactly. And then your daughter was able to send emails.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there was no, no international telephone service unless we went to the Peace Corps office or the embassy.

[Assistant] Which was about a day away.

[User] Yeah. And even to call Kabul, like in the case of having an emergency kidney stone, you had to go to the telephone telegraph office and the telephone operator had an old pull the plug switchboard and there were only like a dozen phones in town. And so when I picked up, he'd plug them in. But if you wanted to call somebody in Kabul, they had an old rotary dial system which was current here to. Right. And, uh, but the guy would plug it into the Kabul port and turn the crank to generate the electricity and shout into the mouthpiece, Kabul, Kabul. And then he'd get them on the phone and he'd tell them what number you wanted to talk to. And the person answered and they'd put you through to the person like the doctor. The only time we ever used it was called the doctor. So, yeah, that was the that was the high tech start.

[Assistant] Exactly. And then your daughter was able to send emails.

[User] And she was able to send email and there what would have been they had telephones.

[Assistant] She had a cell phone for the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And even to call Kabul, like in the case of having an emergency kidney stone, you had to go to the telephone telegraph office and the telephone operator had an old pull the plug switchboard and there were only like a dozen phones in town. And so when I picked up, he'd plug them in. But if you wanted to call somebody in Kabul, they had an old rotary dial system which was current here to. Right. And, uh, but the guy would plug it into the Kabul port and turn the crank to generate the electricity and shout into the mouthpiece, Kabul, Kabul. And then he'd get them on the phone and he'd tell them what number you wanted to talk to. And the person answered and they'd put you through to the person like the doctor. The only time we ever used it was called the doctor. So, yeah, that was the that was the high tech start.

[Assistant] Exactly. And then your daughter was able to send emails.

[User] And she was able to send email and there what would have been they had telephones.

[Assistant] She had a cell phone for the Peace Corps?

[User] No I said telephone.

[Assistant] Or telephone, got it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she was able to send email and there what would have been they had telephones.

[Assistant] She had a cell phone for the Peace Corps?

[User] No I said telephone.

[Assistant] Or telephone, got it.

[User] The family in Kazakhstan had a telephone and wherever she lived. And so we emailed and prearrange of time. And I could call her and that's, you know, so you could, you could have voice conversations at least and quick conversations. And you could arrange for things. And, you know, so in ‘98, 2000, things had and but Kazakhstan was a different country. Soviet infrastructure in place.

[Assistant] It's amazing that we were there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No I said telephone.

[Assistant] Or telephone, got it.

[User] The family in Kazakhstan had a telephone and wherever she lived. And so we emailed and prearrange of time. And I could call her and that's, you know, so you could, you could have voice conversations at least and quick conversations. And you could arrange for things. And, you know, so in ‘98, 2000, things had and but Kazakhstan was a different country. Soviet infrastructure in place.

[Assistant] It's amazing that we were there.

[User] She taught at a science hospital or a high school in teaching environmental science. And because of that, it was a technology based school. So, you know, I doubt that all the high schools had the Internet in Kazakhstan. And, you know, probably that one, you know, I don't know about a previous volunteer in Paladar. I think it helped set up that particular service at high school had when she got there.

[Assistant] That's pretty wonderful that your daughter also did Peace Corps. I’m sure you inspired her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The family in Kazakhstan had a telephone and wherever she lived. And so we emailed and prearrange of time. And I could call her and that's, you know, so you could, you could have voice conversations at least and quick conversations. And you could arrange for things. And, you know, so in ‘98, 2000, things had and but Kazakhstan was a different country. Soviet infrastructure in place.

[Assistant] It's amazing that we were there.

[User] She taught at a science hospital or a high school in teaching environmental science. And because of that, it was a technology based school. So, you know, I doubt that all the high schools had the Internet in Kazakhstan. And, you know, probably that one, you know, I don't know about a previous volunteer in Paladar. I think it helped set up that particular service at high school had when she got there.

[Assistant] That's pretty wonderful that your daughter also did Peace Corps. I’m sure you inspired her.

[User] And my other daughter became a missionary in Africa, so.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. You continue the international interest. That's great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She taught at a science hospital or a high school in teaching environmental science. And because of that, it was a technology based school. So, you know, I doubt that all the high schools had the Internet in Kazakhstan. And, you know, probably that one, you know, I don't know about a previous volunteer in Paladar. I think it helped set up that particular service at high school had when she got there.

[Assistant] That's pretty wonderful that your daughter also did Peace Corps. I’m sure you inspired her.

[User] And my other daughter became a missionary in Africa, so.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. You continue the international interest. That's great.

[User] And she's back, they're both back in Indiana now. So they don't have to travel all the time. They've got kids and they've got grandkids now. Yeah. Life is good.

[Assistant] Exactly. And you were even the first full circle where you go back to Afghanistan to help them out. But you went back in 2004. Have you been back since?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my other daughter became a missionary in Africa, so.

[Assistant] Oh, wow. You continue the international interest. That's great.

[User] And she's back, they're both back in Indiana now. So they don't have to travel all the time. They've got kids and they've got grandkids now. Yeah. Life is good.

[Assistant] Exactly. And you were even the first full circle where you go back to Afghanistan to help them out. But you went back in 2004. Have you been back since?

[User] No.

[Assistant] But you've been helping still nonetheless.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well it lasted. I don't know that it made a difference in avoiding Soviet invasion, 40 years of war. Many of the Children that I taught are dead or. But I doubt that I made enemies right. So I didn't contribute to that. And I and I did learn how the through the values of this culture and through the relationships that I learned to build with people in the culture that. They're capable of making a difference. Yes, and enabling them to make the difference is what it should be about.

[Assistant] Yes, being the catalyst to allow the.

[User] It’s not about what I do, but it's about what we what we get from the people that we're meeting and working with. And I think volunteers should be encouraged to go with that idea in mind. That's where that's where the lasting value comes.

[Assistant] We're just a small piece of the puzzle. You know, we're just we should just be a catalyst to allow the country to do what they need to.

[User] Yeah. And I saw it happen with lots of volunteers. I mean, the programs had lots of volunteers were involved in, although I must say that the ladies that went out on horseback to do smallpox vaccinations personally put their lives on the line, personally made a world of difference. You know, and

[Assistant] Getting rid of, to eradicate. Yeah, that's wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s not about what I do, but it's about what we what we get from the people that we're meeting and working with. And I think volunteers should be encouraged to go with that idea in mind. That's where that's where the lasting value comes.

[Assistant] We're just a small piece of the puzzle. You know, we're just we should just be a catalyst to allow the country to do what they need to.

[User] Yeah. And I saw it happen with lots of volunteers. I mean, the programs had lots of volunteers were involved in, although I must say that the ladies that went out on horseback to do smallpox vaccinations personally put their lives on the line, personally made a world of difference. You know, and

[Assistant] Getting rid of, to eradicate. Yeah, that's wonderful.

[User] And you were able to do it without military accompaniment. They had had an Afghan meal that went along with, you know, they had medical supplies and they went into villages and knocked on doors and in areas that we now call Taliban country. And because they were women, they were allowed to open the doors. The women, the women could talk to God.

[Assistant] Well, that's really interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So anyway, So I'm also very proud of the fact that some of these Afghan refugees that have come to the United States are become resources for us in a war.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And their encounters with Peace Corps volunteers and so forth. One of our board members with Friends of Afghanistan is, uh, is an Afghan American born in the United States. His father came to United States, had been taught by Peace Corps volunteers, and he has become Baktash is his name and he's on Friends of Afghanistan. He has become the first Afghan American Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Yay!

[User] You know, and he was Peace Corps. And then after he finished Peace Corps, he was a translator for U.S. military. And now he's doing documentaries about Afghanistan, educating Americans about the culture.

[Assistant] And so it's full circle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And their encounters with Peace Corps volunteers and so forth. One of our board members with Friends of Afghanistan is, uh, is an Afghan American born in the United States. His father came to United States, had been taught by Peace Corps volunteers, and he has become Baktash is his name and he's on Friends of Afghanistan. He has become the first Afghan American Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] Yay!

[User] You know, and he was Peace Corps. And then after he finished Peace Corps, he was a translator for U.S. military. And now he's doing documentaries about Afghanistan, educating Americans about the culture.

[Assistant] And so it's full circle.

[User] So through friends and through connections and Peace Corps NPCA groups, groups like local regional groups where you're meeting with Peace Corps volunteers from other countries or with volunteers from the country you served in. And there's an affinity between volunteers. It's the, you know, the shared outhouse experience, I suppose, but it is. And then country service groups, there's another level of shared sharing and storytelling.

[Assistant] Exactly. We're just trying to make peace throughout the world.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, and he was Peace Corps. And then after he finished Peace Corps, he was a translator for U.S. military. And now he's doing documentaries about Afghanistan, educating Americans about the culture.

[Assistant] And so it's full circle.

[User] So through friends and through connections and Peace Corps NPCA groups, groups like local regional groups where you're meeting with Peace Corps volunteers from other countries or with volunteers from the country you served in. And there's an affinity between volunteers. It's the, you know, the shared outhouse experience, I suppose, but it is. And then country service groups, there's another level of shared sharing and storytelling.

[Assistant] Exactly. We're just trying to make peace throughout the world.

[User] So. Yeah, well it's going to take a while.

[Assistant] It's ah well the Peace Corps has been at it for over 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you so much for sharing your story and your full circle story of Afghanistan.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So through friends and through connections and Peace Corps NPCA groups, groups like local regional groups where you're meeting with Peace Corps volunteers from other countries or with volunteers from the country you served in. And there's an affinity between volunteers. It's the, you know, the shared outhouse experience, I suppose, but it is. And then country service groups, there's another level of shared sharing and storytelling.

[Assistant] Exactly. We're just trying to make peace throughout the world.

[User] So. Yeah, well it's going to take a while.

[Assistant] It's ah well the Peace Corps has been at it for over 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you so much for sharing your story and your full circle story of Afghanistan.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] It was lovely to hear. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ladies, glad to be here. Yes, I’m not all that busy. My busy today is stuff that there’s no schedules typically associated with them.

[Assistant] That’s nice to have some flexibility. I thought we’d start with Challenger [STS-51L]. I understand you were at the Action Center in Building 30 during the launch. Can you talk to us about that day?

[User] Sure. I had worked the mission right before that as a flight director. Would that be [STS]-61C?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, 61C, I’m thinking. Jay [H.] Greene was the lead flight director. I think I might have mentioned this last time. He was mentoring me and I was doing a lot of the lead flight director role, preparing myself to become a lead flight director on that mission. It landed, and this is one of those times where we’re trying to fly Shuttles quicker. We launched 10 days later. If you go all the way back to every manned spaceflight this country has had, I don’t think I have missed a single one. A lot of times I listened to it on the radio—when I was at sea on board recovery ships. Since I’m working here, I’m going to be in the control center, if I’m not working during that time.\n\n I went over to the Action Center and sat down just to watch. I had been aware of the cold atmosphere down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] during that time. I certainly did not get directly involved with it and wasn’t. I wasn’t aware at the time that there was this huge issue with the solid rocket booster joint seals and the temperature. I just wasn’t. I was sitting there just watching and thinking this is going to be okay.

[Assistant] What are your memories of things as they unfolded during the launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. I had worked the mission right before that as a flight director. Would that be [STS]-61C?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, 61C, I’m thinking. Jay [H.] Greene was the lead flight director. I think I might have mentioned this last time. He was mentoring me and I was doing a lot of the lead flight director role, preparing myself to become a lead flight director on that mission. It landed, and this is one of those times where we’re trying to fly Shuttles quicker. We launched 10 days later. If you go all the way back to every manned spaceflight this country has had, I don’t think I have missed a single one. A lot of times I listened to it on the radio—when I was at sea on board recovery ships. Since I’m working here, I’m going to be in the control center, if I’m not working during that time.\n\n I went over to the Action Center and sat down just to watch. I had been aware of the cold atmosphere down at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] during that time. I certainly did not get directly involved with it and wasn’t. I wasn’t aware at the time that there was this huge issue with the solid rocket booster joint seals and the temperature. I just wasn’t. I was sitting there just watching and thinking this is going to be okay.

[Assistant] What are your memories of things as they unfolded during the launch?

[User] At the time [of the] explosion and seeing that happen, I think the first thing that I noticed—as it turns out the solid rocket boosters themselves were still flying. I think I said something to the effect of, “Oh, there it is, there it goes,” knowing this was a disaster, but somehow just probably hoping more than anything that what I saw was actually the Shuttle still ascending where they would be able to get into a position to bail out.

[Assistant] What did you do after you realized the crew hadn’t survived and they had to—didn’t they detonate the SRBs [solid rocket boosters] at one point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We got them down for a launch. On their one hundredth flight, I don’t remember what STS mission it was, on their one hundredth time to do this, we invited them to come down, and we brought one of the representatives from the flower company. In the viewing room behind the flight control team we presented them with a plaque to take back, and thanked them for all that they had done. I still stay in touch with the family. MacKenzie was three years old when this started, and MacKenzie is married and has a kid now.

[Assistant] Wow! I just think that’s such a great story of the impact that NASA has on the public that you don’t really see.

[User] Exactly, they’re such good people. He’s done a number of interviews with the local media up in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. He’s a great spokesperson for the program. It’s cool, really cool.\n\n I will say we had some close calls. We’ve had some roses carried in during reentry of the Shuttle. It’s interesting. A day or so before landing the flight control team would start asking, “Where are the roses?”

[Assistant] Were they concerned it would jinx the thing?

[User] Yes, that’s right. We don’t want to change this up.

[Assistant] That’s funny. I wanted to ask you about several missions. I thought it was interesting how you were assigned to some that involved planetary probes to Venus, to Jupiter, to the Sun. Was that purposeful? Did you do a lot of work with JPL [Jet Propulsion Lab, Pasadena, California]? Did you just have an interest in planetary missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a very different job, but it was one that I got a big kick out of. I would occasionally have to get on the phone directly back to Goddard, where the mission director would be located, and talk to him, “Okay, here’s what’s going on. Hey, this is what I think we ought to do, and I’m okay with this. How do you feel? You okay?” It was a traffic cop job.

[Assistant] But one you were used to, working in MOD.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you about a couple of your DOD [Department of Defense] missions because I noticed that you had a couple of them, STS-44 and [STS]-53.

[User] Forty-four, what was that, Jennifer?

[Assistant] I didn’t write it down.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask you about a couple of your DOD [Department of Defense] missions because I noticed that you had a couple of them, STS-44 and [STS]-53.

[User] Forty-four, what was that, Jennifer?

[Assistant] I didn’t write it down.

[User] That’s okay. It may come to me.

[Assistant] I didn’t write down 53 either. Just curious what it was like working a classified mission versus all the other high-profile missions that you had worked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Forty-four, what was that, Jennifer?

[Assistant] I didn’t write it down.

[User] That’s okay. It may come to me.

[Assistant] I didn’t write down 53 either. Just curious what it was like working a classified mission versus all the other high-profile missions that you had worked.

[User] [They were a] pain in the butt. It was just much more difficult, having to be so careful in handling paperwork and having discussions. They had to be done in a classified manner. It just took more time.\n\n Beyond that it was still the spacecraft and normal issues that you had with an unclassified flight as well. The first one that I worked, I don’t remember the mission number. I thought I worked one before 44. A team comes on after launch, and they’re going to do whatever they’re going to do. I was going to follow that team. I would come in about the time that the crew was getting ready to call it a day after the first day on orbit.\n\n I was told that if they didn’t do what they were going to do on the first flight day and it didn’t work right, I would be briefed at that time on what is in the payload bay. To this day I still don’t know. I had no idea what was back there. But I [was told that I] would be briefed prior to taking the shift there, if it was still there. Except for a handful of folks in the control center, [no one knew.] Well, we had a payload officer. We had a person responsible for the payload. That person clearly knew what was there. I really had no need to know, so a lot of that was done that way. I’m telling you I still to this day don’t know what was back there, because when I came in there, the payload bay was empty. It was empty. There wasn’t anything back there. So use your imagination.

[Assistant] How did you feel about that, being told that you’re on a need-to-know basis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s okay. It may come to me.

[Assistant] I didn’t write down 53 either. Just curious what it was like working a classified mission versus all the other high-profile missions that you had worked.

[User] [They were a] pain in the butt. It was just much more difficult, having to be so careful in handling paperwork and having discussions. They had to be done in a classified manner. It just took more time.\n\n Beyond that it was still the spacecraft and normal issues that you had with an unclassified flight as well. The first one that I worked, I don’t remember the mission number. I thought I worked one before 44. A team comes on after launch, and they’re going to do whatever they’re going to do. I was going to follow that team. I would come in about the time that the crew was getting ready to call it a day after the first day on orbit.\n\n I was told that if they didn’t do what they were going to do on the first flight day and it didn’t work right, I would be briefed at that time on what is in the payload bay. To this day I still don’t know. I had no idea what was back there. But I [was told that I] would be briefed prior to taking the shift there, if it was still there. Except for a handful of folks in the control center, [no one knew.] Well, we had a payload officer. We had a person responsible for the payload. That person clearly knew what was there. I really had no need to know, so a lot of that was done that way. I’m telling you I still to this day don’t know what was back there, because when I came in there, the payload bay was empty. It was empty. There wasn’t anything back there. So use your imagination.

[Assistant] How did you feel about that, being told that you’re on a need-to-know basis?

[User] I wasn’t worried about it. It didn’t bother me.

[Assistant] Did you have to do press conferences for any of those missions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [They were a] pain in the butt. It was just much more difficult, having to be so careful in handling paperwork and having discussions. They had to be done in a classified manner. It just took more time.\n\n Beyond that it was still the spacecraft and normal issues that you had with an unclassified flight as well. The first one that I worked, I don’t remember the mission number. I thought I worked one before 44. A team comes on after launch, and they’re going to do whatever they’re going to do. I was going to follow that team. I would come in about the time that the crew was getting ready to call it a day after the first day on orbit.\n\n I was told that if they didn’t do what they were going to do on the first flight day and it didn’t work right, I would be briefed at that time on what is in the payload bay. To this day I still don’t know. I had no idea what was back there. But I [was told that I] would be briefed prior to taking the shift there, if it was still there. Except for a handful of folks in the control center, [no one knew.] Well, we had a payload officer. We had a person responsible for the payload. That person clearly knew what was there. I really had no need to know, so a lot of that was done that way. I’m telling you I still to this day don’t know what was back there, because when I came in there, the payload bay was empty. It was empty. There wasn’t anything back there. So use your imagination.

[Assistant] How did you feel about that, being told that you’re on a need-to-know basis?

[User] I wasn’t worried about it. It didn’t bother me.

[Assistant] Did you have to do press conferences for any of those missions?

[User] DOD flights, no. Press conferences, those were a hoot back in those days.

[Assistant] Can you talk about those and the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn’t worried about it. It didn’t bother me.

[Assistant] Did you have to do press conferences for any of those missions?

[User] DOD flights, no. Press conferences, those were a hoot back in those days.

[Assistant] Can you talk about those and the training?

[User] Sure. My wife gets tired of me saying this every time I see it, but today, Jennifer, every time I see anybody on TV in a blue shirt and a red tie I know they’ve had the course.

[Assistant] Is that what they told you to wear?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We ended up with 14 separate independent reviews over [the years].

[Assistant] Fourteen?

[User] Fourteen.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Official. By my count we had 18. We had some closer to home here. They were ad hoc, but we had all these reviews.\n\n With this piece of paper, and knowing that, and with all these reviews, I got to the point where I was cocky, because I knew we could do this. Jennifer, when we launched this mission, I was really convinced we’re going to do this. I should put it this way, these reviews basically showed that there were people looking over our shoulder that agreed with what we were doing and how we were going about doing it. Early on it was a little rough, the very first one or two of these things that we had. We got to the point where we were just rocking and rolling, and we knew what we were going to be doing. I think this team went into that mission pretty doggone cocky about getting it done.

[Assistant] Did you ever have so much oversight on another mission? Did you ever have any independent reviews?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ll tell you the story. You’re exactly right. I was cognizant of what we were about to get ready to do, very aware of Kranz’s speech there before the landing, basically saying, “We came in here as a team, we’re going to leave as a team.”\n\n I thought in light of what had happened to us with Mars Observer and recognizing and remembering what we got from the Appropriations Committee and their statement, I thought I needed to do something. Before the first EVA I need to do something to get people pumped up a little bit. So I came up with what I was going to do. I was going to tell the CapCom to tell the crew something.

[Assistant] Are these your notes?

[User] This is what I had written down. This is what I was going to say. We’re all set up where the crew is in the air lock, they’re getting ready to go, this is the go for the EVA. You’re going to be go for EVA.\n\n “CapCom, tell the crew it’s now time to not only restore Hubble’s vision but to restore the credibility of this Agency. They are go for EVA.” That’s what it was. Guess what. I overslept. I got to the control center, can’t remember who—I think Bob [Robert E.] Castle was the one right before me. The crew had already mentioned they might get out early. Bob couldn’t wait on me. He gave them the go to do the EVA.

[Assistant] Oh, no.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So best-laid plans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is what I had written down. This is what I was going to say. We’re all set up where the crew is in the air lock, they’re getting ready to go, this is the go for the EVA. You’re going to be go for EVA.\n\n “CapCom, tell the crew it’s now time to not only restore Hubble’s vision but to restore the credibility of this Agency. They are go for EVA.” That’s what it was. Guess what. I overslept. I got to the control center, can’t remember who—I think Bob [Robert E.] Castle was the one right before me. The crew had already mentioned they might get out early. Bob couldn’t wait on me. He gave them the go to do the EVA.

[Assistant] Oh, no.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So best-laid plans.

[User] Didn’t work.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s disappointing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So best-laid plans.

[User] Didn’t work.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s disappointing.

[User] Yes. Didn’t work.

[Assistant] I guess that relates to another question. What were your work hours and workdays like when you started working on this mission? Were they any different from other missions? Or were you working extended hours because there was so much that had to be done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] None of that went up. None of this went to them.

[Assistant] Not that, but just keeping the rhythm with the crew, were you conversing with them rather than CapCom?

[User] No, I was not, it was just through CapCom. But you could tell on board they were doing fine.\n\n This is back in the days too—I ran across this. This is before all this wonderful stuff we got these days. This is from Dick Covey. It was typed up on board and sent down by the teleprinter. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that goofy thing we used to have, teleprinter.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It was to me from Covey. This is after the EVA. We were all buttoned up, redeployed. It’s late in the mission. It’s getting close to landing time. He said, “Well, partner, we did it, and damn well at that. Now if I can just land this puppy on a dark night in a couple days, we’ll put a wrap on the JSC team’s role in restoring Hubble. I know you will probably be willing to hoist a beer for me tonight.” Certainly I did. “Let me tell you though that if I had one right now I would be lifting it in the team’s name.” Isn’t that cool?

[Assistant] That’s really nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was not, it was just through CapCom. But you could tell on board they were doing fine.\n\n This is back in the days too—I ran across this. This is before all this wonderful stuff we got these days. This is from Dick Covey. It was typed up on board and sent down by the teleprinter. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that goofy thing we used to have, teleprinter.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It was to me from Covey. This is after the EVA. We were all buttoned up, redeployed. It’s late in the mission. It’s getting close to landing time. He said, “Well, partner, we did it, and damn well at that. Now if I can just land this puppy on a dark night in a couple days, we’ll put a wrap on the JSC team’s role in restoring Hubble. I know you will probably be willing to hoist a beer for me tonight.” Certainly I did. “Let me tell you though that if I had one right now I would be lifting it in the team’s name.” Isn’t that cool?

[Assistant] That’s really nice.

[User] That’s really cool. Then he had a little P.S. He said, “P.S., thanks for preserving the day off.” Early Shuttle we didn’t have anything called a day off, but we began to learn it’s a good idea to give the crew some time off occasionally. We must have somehow even found a way to give them a little time off. I don’t know how we did that. But he said, “Thanks for preserving the day off. It really means a lot to the whole crew.” That was it. That was a nice note from Covey.

[Assistant] Did you have any major challenges during the mission? You mentioned the strap.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s really cool. Then he had a little P.S. He said, “P.S., thanks for preserving the day off.” Early Shuttle we didn’t have anything called a day off, but we began to learn it’s a good idea to give the crew some time off occasionally. We must have somehow even found a way to give them a little time off. I don’t know how we did that. But he said, “Thanks for preserving the day off. It really means a lot to the whole crew.” That was it. That was a nice note from Covey.

[Assistant] Did you have any major challenges during the mission? You mentioned the strap.

[User] From a Hubble standpoint, the major challenge that we had [was one] I talked about earlier, closing these access doors. My zeal [was] to get those doors closed, so we didn’t talk about it the night afterwards and have to replan the EVA. That was the most significant Hubble-related problem that we had. We had two or three other things on Hubble that we discovered that we were able to just come up with a little additional procedure to get fixed. That’s why I said we were 13 for 11.\n\n There was nothing on the Orbiter side that hung over our heads. There were always some little bits and pieces here relative to some of the environmental control system procedures or hardware, but things that we had work-arounds that we’d used before. We probably did some of those. There wasn’t anything from the Orbiter standpoint that caused us to have a problem like that.

[Assistant] You and other members of the Hubble team ended up winning the Robert Collier Trophy.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Will you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Will you talk about that?

[User] What a nice thing. I’m told that that’s aviation’s highest award. Goes back a long ways. That was really nice that the crew and myself, I think Randy Brinkley might have been on that too. It’s a very very nice thing. Got a nice replica of the Collier Trophy that I got to keep, a small one. It’s at an air and space museum in Oklahoma City, my home state. It’s up there now.\n\n After the mission the European side of this, the folks that built the solar arrays and some of the other hardware, they invited the crew and their wives to come. About an 11-day, 10-day tour going around Europe to the various places that manufactured stuff for Hubble.\n\n Story at the time was single, and Story invited me to take the place of his spouse. No, the crew invited me to attend this with them, this tour, which was really really nice. I bring it up because on this tour I can’t remember what country we were in, but I got notified that I had been honored as the Astronaut of the Year.

[Assistant] I was going to ask about that.

[User] From Countdown magazine, which is no longer in business by the way. I was the Astronaut of the Year for my contributions to the Hubble repair. I learned that with the crew, and I had so much fun with that, by the way. I got the certificate somewhere. I think I got it over there as a matter of fact, so I could show it to them at the time, and said, “Look here, guys, hey, I’m Astronaut of the Year and I’ve never flown in space.”

[Assistant] You did a lot for that mission. I know you did. What do you think is the legacy of STS-61, just looking back? So many years have passed. Is there something in particular you would point to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay. Now let us then get ready to roll through all those years. How many years was it when you first came aboard NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] (not NASA)?

[User] 1941. March of ’41. And the way I came aboard was as a model maker, as well as a friend of mine, Caldwell [C.] Johnson. We lived in various cities and heard that the government was hiring employees to actually build models for wind tunnel research. And here I had spent probably from age 12 until 25 or so building competitive models; and it was, you know, very interesting to me in the aeronautics field. So, I had an opportunity, and I filed an application, got a call to come down to [NACA Langley Memorial Aeronautical Laboratory] Hampton, Virginia, and take a interview. And I’ll never forget the day. It was such a wonderful thing for me to get hired to build models—my hobby, my life’s hobby—and get paid for it! So, that’s how things started, Roy. I just was one of those lucky guys who came into the business through aeronautics, through our hobby in aviation.

[Assistant] You said you started in 1941?

[User] ’41.

[Assistant] As World War II was really getting under way for these United States.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1941. March of ’41. And the way I came aboard was as a model maker, as well as a friend of mine, Caldwell [C.] Johnson. We lived in various cities and heard that the government was hiring employees to actually build models for wind tunnel research. And here I had spent probably from age 12 until 25 or so building competitive models; and it was, you know, very interesting to me in the aeronautics field. So, I had an opportunity, and I filed an application, got a call to come down to [NACA Langley Memorial Aeronautical Laboratory] Hampton, Virginia, and take a interview. And I’ll never forget the day. It was such a wonderful thing for me to get hired to build models—my hobby, my life’s hobby—and get paid for it! So, that’s how things started, Roy. I just was one of those lucky guys who came into the business through aeronautics, through our hobby in aviation.

[Assistant] You said you started in 1941?

[User] ’41.

[Assistant] As World War II was really getting under way for these United States.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Does that mean you were working on some wartime projects during that war?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] ’41.

[Assistant] As World War II was really getting under way for these United States.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Does that mean you were working on some wartime projects during that war?

[User] Yes, it does. I worked in the machine shop at the time on Langley Field Base. And they had various secret projects for the military, for the war, including advanced designed airplanes that were still in the development stage. And so they gave we employees secret ratings; and whenever the draft boards in our local neighborhoods tried to call us up, all we had to do was go over to the draft officer in NACA and tell him, “We’ve got a call. What do we do?” And he says, “Well, just take your time. Don’t worry about it.” He says, “You’re not going anywhere.” So, as a result of that, we were put in the Air Corps enlisted reserve. We did have to board a bus and go up to Richmond, Virginia, and take physicals and go through all these steps that you would as a draftee. But upon the completion of the physical test and everything else, the colonel (or whoever it was) there said, “Okay, fellows, you’re heading back to work at Langley Field.” So, that’s how that came about.

[Assistant] And then one day the National Advisory [Committee for] Aeronautics became the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Does that mean you were working on some wartime projects during that war?

[User] Yes, it does. I worked in the machine shop at the time on Langley Field Base. And they had various secret projects for the military, for the war, including advanced designed airplanes that were still in the development stage. And so they gave we employees secret ratings; and whenever the draft boards in our local neighborhoods tried to call us up, all we had to do was go over to the draft officer in NACA and tell him, “We’ve got a call. What do we do?” And he says, “Well, just take your time. Don’t worry about it.” He says, “You’re not going anywhere.” So, as a result of that, we were put in the Air Corps enlisted reserve. We did have to board a bus and go up to Richmond, Virginia, and take physicals and go through all these steps that you would as a draftee. But upon the completion of the physical test and everything else, the colonel (or whoever it was) there said, “Okay, fellows, you’re heading back to work at Langley Field.” So, that’s how that came about.

[Assistant] And then one day the National Advisory [Committee for] Aeronautics became the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It had a new role. And that, of course, meant that your life changed considerably, didn’t it, Jack?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It had a new role. And that, of course, meant that your life changed considerably, didn’t it, Jack?

[User] Very much so. And it’s kind of an interesting thing to talk about because, as a young fellow working in the shops, I was across the street from the department where [Robert R.] Bob Gilruth had his facilities: the PARD (Pilotless Aircraft Research Division). And you know, I’m sure, of Bob’s activities. But I’ll leave that go for now. But as one of the employees over there, I had developed a kind of a lot contacts because I was in charge of a group of 10 men as a subgroup of the shops and we would go out to the test facilities, install the precision models, and do modifications as required around the space—around the Center.\n\n So, I got to be well-known and whenever they—Bob decided he was going to start a Space Task Group, he went to my superiors and he said, “I’d like to have at least one of your people who could come with me and develop a similar facility like we have here at Langley.” And then he called me and he said, “Jack, would you like to work over in the space program with me?” And I said, “By all means!” I had been reading books about spaceflight and listened to some of the lectures that were available at the time, and I was primed, ready to jump onboard whenever he asked me.

[Assistant] Still a very young man, of course, too.

[User] Yes, I was quite young then.

[Assistant] So, the Space Task Group reached out and pulled you in. And at first, did you have an assignment or did you have to make your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I was quite young then.

[Assistant] So, the Space Task Group reached out and pulled you in. And at first, did you have an assignment or did you have to make your own?

[User] Well, it’s kind of interesting. He knew that—he asked me to come with him so that the shop’s organization could be represented in some fashion. Remember this: there were 1,000 employees at Langley Research Center, scattered around in all their research shops. And it’s not a manufacturing-type environment; it’s a research and development environment. So, with that knowledge, he thought, “I’d better take somebody with me that’s familiar with this kind of business.” So, he asked me if I would go, and I joined him; and we followed on, and we came to Houston, [Texas]; and he never gave me another bit of instruction. He said, “I want you to create an entire technical services organization with up to 200 people. And you would design the buildings, lay out the basic outline of the facilities. You would go about the country, recruit people. And while you’re doing that, you’ll run around to the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] with the Big Joe capsule that you built at Langley.” So, it was a thrilling thing for me to get an offer like that.

[Assistant] I’m going to come back to that, too.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] Because right now I think we’re jumping out of Langley into Houston a little rapidly—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s kind of interesting. He knew that—he asked me to come with him so that the shop’s organization could be represented in some fashion. Remember this: there were 1,000 employees at Langley Research Center, scattered around in all their research shops. And it’s not a manufacturing-type environment; it’s a research and development environment. So, with that knowledge, he thought, “I’d better take somebody with me that’s familiar with this kind of business.” So, he asked me if I would go, and I joined him; and we followed on, and we came to Houston, [Texas]; and he never gave me another bit of instruction. He said, “I want you to create an entire technical services organization with up to 200 people. And you would design the buildings, lay out the basic outline of the facilities. You would go about the country, recruit people. And while you’re doing that, you’ll run around to the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] with the Big Joe capsule that you built at Langley.” So, it was a thrilling thing for me to get an offer like that.

[Assistant] I’m going to come back to that, too.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] Because right now I think we’re jumping out of Langley into Houston a little rapidly—

[User] Too soon.

[Assistant] —because you were doing things back there at Langley before you came here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] Because right now I think we’re jumping out of Langley into Houston a little rapidly—

[User] Too soon.

[Assistant] —because you were doing things back there at Langley before you came here.

[User] That’s right. In the earliest days, just prior to NACA becoming NASA, there was a gentleman who created what is now called the parasail. And in that project I had occasion to work with him and then I also went out to the Jet Propulsion Lab and worked there. When we considered the idea of making a passive satellite (you may or may not have heard of this), but we built a sphere 6-in. in diameter and filled it with a—some material which would expand if you exposed it to a vacuum of space; and we had a 12-ft diameter Mylar plastic-type device that would balloon out and become a spherical satellite, if you will. So, I worked on that project as well as— [William J.] O’Sullivan [Jr.] was the gentleman who had the parasail. I was involved with both of those.

[Assistant] And that balloon sounds a lot like something called [Project] Echo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Too soon.

[Assistant] —because you were doing things back there at Langley before you came here.

[User] That’s right. In the earliest days, just prior to NACA becoming NASA, there was a gentleman who created what is now called the parasail. And in that project I had occasion to work with him and then I also went out to the Jet Propulsion Lab and worked there. When we considered the idea of making a passive satellite (you may or may not have heard of this), but we built a sphere 6-in. in diameter and filled it with a—some material which would expand if you exposed it to a vacuum of space; and we had a 12-ft diameter Mylar plastic-type device that would balloon out and become a spherical satellite, if you will. So, I worked on that project as well as— [William J.] O’Sullivan [Jr.] was the gentleman who had the parasail. I was involved with both of those.

[Assistant] And that balloon sounds a lot like something called [Project] Echo.

[User] Echo, right. After our 12-footer was successful, we went ahead and built a 100-ft sized sphere, which packed in about a 24-in. diameter sphere. Same principles. Launched on some of the existing booster rockets that were in use in those days. So, here again we were well ahead of the beginning of any assay in this instance. Just, you know, a year or two. But—

[Assistant] Well, you’re back in the ’50s now. You've been there from ’41 into the ’50s.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. In the earliest days, just prior to NACA becoming NASA, there was a gentleman who created what is now called the parasail. And in that project I had occasion to work with him and then I also went out to the Jet Propulsion Lab and worked there. When we considered the idea of making a passive satellite (you may or may not have heard of this), but we built a sphere 6-in. in diameter and filled it with a—some material which would expand if you exposed it to a vacuum of space; and we had a 12-ft diameter Mylar plastic-type device that would balloon out and become a spherical satellite, if you will. So, I worked on that project as well as— [William J.] O’Sullivan [Jr.] was the gentleman who had the parasail. I was involved with both of those.

[Assistant] And that balloon sounds a lot like something called [Project] Echo.

[User] Echo, right. After our 12-footer was successful, we went ahead and built a 100-ft sized sphere, which packed in about a 24-in. diameter sphere. Same principles. Launched on some of the existing booster rockets that were in use in those days. So, here again we were well ahead of the beginning of any assay in this instance. Just, you know, a year or two. But—

[Assistant] Well, you’re back in the ’50s now. You've been there from ’41 into the ’50s.

[User] Into the ’50s.

[Assistant] And so this gives us that transitional time in the ’50s, as NACA transitioned into NASA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Echo, right. After our 12-footer was successful, we went ahead and built a 100-ft sized sphere, which packed in about a 24-in. diameter sphere. Same principles. Launched on some of the existing booster rockets that were in use in those days. So, here again we were well ahead of the beginning of any assay in this instance. Just, you know, a year or two. But—

[Assistant] Well, you’re back in the ’50s now. You've been there from ’41 into the ’50s.

[User] Into the ’50s.

[Assistant] And so this gives us that transitional time in the ’50s, as NACA transitioned into NASA.

[User] Yes, it does.

[Assistant] And gave you a beginning into what was to become the manned spaceflight program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Into the ’50s.

[Assistant] And so this gives us that transitional time in the ’50s, as NACA transitioned into NASA.

[User] Yes, it does.

[Assistant] And gave you a beginning into what was to become the manned spaceflight program.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] That must’ve changed a lot of the thinking of the kind of things on which you were working. No more balloons.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it does.

[Assistant] And gave you a beginning into what was to become the manned spaceflight program.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] That must’ve changed a lot of the thinking of the kind of things on which you were working. No more balloons.

[User] Yeah, you could certainly say that, because they haven’t made any more that I know of in the present period of time. As far as a transition: we were involved with aviation in NACA, and aviation dictates airplanes with wings and so on. So, the aerodynamic aspects of aviation certainly led over into the development of the capsules that had to fly. We had to have a means of them sustaining themselves, you know, in later flight. And of course, I’m jumping a mile when I get to the Shuttle. But nevertheless, we did—our experience with aviation, I think, was a direct leader into the days of the rockets and so on. As a matter of fact, you may or may not have heard a lot about Bob Gilruth’s concept.\n\n We in the machine shop built scale models of wings. We were interested in trying to break the sound barrier because it was a limit in the wind tunnels. You couldn’t do it. The air flowing through the tunnels would get turbulent, and you couldn’t get any decent data from it. So, Bob and his group came up with the idea of building small wings, mounting them on the side of a rocket, firing them out at Wallops Island, over in Virginia, off in the Atlantic. And as they were ascending at high speed, they would go through the sound barrier. Meantime, they were able to take telegraphic pictures (telegraphic’s the wrong word). But photos of the activities, and also—telemetry is the word I was looking for. Radio telemetry. So, with that concept, we were kind of moving over into space, trying to get more data on transonic flight. That was a real transition there.

[Assistant] Now that was before actually the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s true.

[Assistant] That must’ve changed a lot of the thinking of the kind of things on which you were working. No more balloons.

[User] Yeah, you could certainly say that, because they haven’t made any more that I know of in the present period of time. As far as a transition: we were involved with aviation in NACA, and aviation dictates airplanes with wings and so on. So, the aerodynamic aspects of aviation certainly led over into the development of the capsules that had to fly. We had to have a means of them sustaining themselves, you know, in later flight. And of course, I’m jumping a mile when I get to the Shuttle. But nevertheless, we did—our experience with aviation, I think, was a direct leader into the days of the rockets and so on. As a matter of fact, you may or may not have heard a lot about Bob Gilruth’s concept.\n\n We in the machine shop built scale models of wings. We were interested in trying to break the sound barrier because it was a limit in the wind tunnels. You couldn’t do it. The air flowing through the tunnels would get turbulent, and you couldn’t get any decent data from it. So, Bob and his group came up with the idea of building small wings, mounting them on the side of a rocket, firing them out at Wallops Island, over in Virginia, off in the Atlantic. And as they were ascending at high speed, they would go through the sound barrier. Meantime, they were able to take telegraphic pictures (telegraphic’s the wrong word). But photos of the activities, and also—telemetry is the word I was looking for. Radio telemetry. So, with that concept, we were kind of moving over into space, trying to get more data on transonic flight. That was a real transition there.

[Assistant] Now that was before actually the—

[User] Before—that was still NACA. But close to it.

[Assistant] And so, when the time came that the Space Task Group was formed, there was a lot of background there and a lot of people who at least had some basic knowledge with which to begin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Before—that was still NACA. But close to it.

[Assistant] And so, when the time came that the Space Task Group was formed, there was a lot of background there and a lot of people who at least had some basic knowledge with which to begin.

[User] Very much so. And I guess the public in general doesn’t realize that we weren’t a rocket-oriented agency then. But Bob’s group utilized the solid rockets to fly and do work in the transonic speed range. So, there’s the connection there. In other words, that led them to thinking that “Since we have a capability to fire rockets, maybe we could put a man in space.” That—it really originated right there with Bob’s group, the Project Mercury concept for a man in space.

[Assistant] I noticed you said “transonic,” not “supersonic.”

[User] Transonic.

[Assistant] You were getting up into the higher realm, weren’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Transonic.

[Assistant] You were getting up into the higher realm, weren’t you?

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Even then.

[User] That’s it.

[Assistant] About what timetable was that? The late ’50s or the early ’50s, mid-’50s?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Even then.

[User] That’s it.

[Assistant] About what timetable was that? The late ’50s or the early ’50s, mid-’50s?

[User] Probably about ’55, ’57, ’58. Leading up—coming up close to the creation of NASA.

[Assistant] In ’58, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s it.

[Assistant] About what timetable was that? The late ’50s or the early ’50s, mid-’50s?

[User] Probably about ’55, ’57, ’58. Leading up—coming up close to the creation of NASA.

[Assistant] In ’58, wasn’t it?

[User] In ’58, yes.

[Assistant] And that’s when the Space Task Group really was formed, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably about ’55, ’57, ’58. Leading up—coming up close to the creation of NASA.

[Assistant] In ’58, wasn’t it?

[User] In ’58, yes.

[Assistant] And that’s when the Space Task Group really was formed, too.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Then the astronauts were chosen—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In ’58, yes.

[Assistant] And that’s when the Space Task Group really was formed, too.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] Then the astronauts were chosen—

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] —shortly thereafter. Well, now we’re into that realm of astronauts; and suddenly the new task is there. Tell us about the beginnings. How do you begin to design to send—to build something that will send a man into space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually flew, yes.

[Assistant] You know, that was one of the things we never really saw during the landing operations.

[User] No.

[Assistant] We never realized that heatshield slid down.

[User] Was dangling down in the water—sloshing around. Now, I’ve got to give you a little side. (You’re helping lead me on here in the way I want to go.)

[Assistant] I think that’s what they have in mind for me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] We never realized that heatshield slid down.

[User] Was dangling down in the water—sloshing around. Now, I’ve got to give you a little side. (You’re helping lead me on here in the way I want to go.)

[Assistant] I think that’s what they have in mind for me.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That’s my kind of role. Go ahead, Jack.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, I can give you an exact example of that. We’ll have to jump way forward, but we can come back. On the Skylab Project, which I’m sure you’ll get to later, Max Faget was on the floor watching us do our early demonstrations of the parasol. And we had some telescoping tubes, which slid back and forth, but they didn’t have any latching effect on them, so that they had to depend on just a friction, like a fishing rod. And he got down on the floor, and he worked one as I watched, and he said, “You know,” he says, “I don’t see why you can’t put a little slit in this aluminum tube, bend it down (it kind of has a spring temper to it).” And he said, “Then put an offset in the next adjacent piece.” He said, “Whenever you pull them out, one at a time, they’ll jump and latch; and they won’t be able to go back.”\n\n So, he did that. He designed something that—I was [the] designer primarily of this Skylab parasol. But a person like Max, who was a Director at the Center—a Division Director lay down on the floor and kind of looked at it! So, that’s typical. And both Bob Gilruth and George Low, those were all design engineer-type people. They had to learn how to become administrators and managers, but they were already highly skilled designers on their own.

[Assistant] Well, they tell the story that on one occasion, using ingenuity again, you had a boilerplate that was somehow dished up on a mattress.

[User] Oh, you know about that?

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] You’ve been reading books.

[Assistant] I’ve been reading about you. So, why don’t you tell us that one, if you would. Okay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, I could just go on.

[Assistant] Yeah. But basically the big story there is that you simply applied what you knew to make something work.

[User] Yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] And—

[User] And used sort of commonsense ideas as far as procedure, but not common—not anything that the average person would do, you know. I mean, I don’t think there are many guys would do it, what I did, in this case.

[Assistant] Well, you did it and it worked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] And—

[User] And used sort of commonsense ideas as far as procedure, but not common—not anything that the average person would do, you know. I mean, I don’t think there are many guys would do it, what I did, in this case.

[Assistant] Well, you did it and it worked.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Of course. So, now finally after all the boilerplates, Mercury was ready to fly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And used sort of commonsense ideas as far as procedure, but not common—not anything that the average person would do, you know. I mean, I don’t think there are many guys would do it, what I did, in this case.

[Assistant] Well, you did it and it worked.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Of course. So, now finally after all the boilerplates, Mercury was ready to fly.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did they require any more model-making at that stage of the game—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did they require any more model-making at that stage of the game—

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —or—

[User] And I’ve left out the function of the shops at Langley. They made a lot of precision models of the Mercury capsule for testing for the aerodynamic shapes and things of that kind. So, there was an active program of making models (metal models) that could be tested in wind tunnels as Mercury was developing. We didn’t just skip by that. We built models. And in my shop, the machine shop at the Johnson Space Center, also made models in the early days. And then we made models later of the Apollo and the Skylab and, you know, everything that came out as a full-size object started in modeling throughout the entire program.

[Assistant] Now they were flying Mercury while you were beginning to look at Gemini and other points and to the Moon, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] —or—

[User] And I’ve left out the function of the shops at Langley. They made a lot of precision models of the Mercury capsule for testing for the aerodynamic shapes and things of that kind. So, there was an active program of making models (metal models) that could be tested in wind tunnels as Mercury was developing. We didn’t just skip by that. We built models. And in my shop, the machine shop at the Johnson Space Center, also made models in the early days. And then we made models later of the Apollo and the Skylab and, you know, everything that came out as a full-size object started in modeling throughout the entire program.

[Assistant] Now they were flying Mercury while you were beginning to look at Gemini and other points and to the Moon, too.

[User] That's right. Mars even.

[Assistant] And you were—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I’ve left out the function of the shops at Langley. They made a lot of precision models of the Mercury capsule for testing for the aerodynamic shapes and things of that kind. So, there was an active program of making models (metal models) that could be tested in wind tunnels as Mercury was developing. We didn’t just skip by that. We built models. And in my shop, the machine shop at the Johnson Space Center, also made models in the early days. And then we made models later of the Apollo and the Skylab and, you know, everything that came out as a full-size object started in modeling throughout the entire program.

[Assistant] Now they were flying Mercury while you were beginning to look at Gemini and other points and to the Moon, too.

[User] That's right. Mars even.

[Assistant] And you were—

[User] All the way back, we had Mars models we built in 1962. Not many people know that. But we had a group of engineers who were thinking ahead about Mars in the early ’60s. Now we’re talking about we can do it in 17 days, and you know—but that’s a fact. Because we had the Mars mission models that we built. Now we didn’t go very far with that, of course. We just did some—built some replica conceptual models.

[Assistant] Interesting at the time. But, too, you had the immediate job of, “Let’s get on with flying to the Moon” by that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Mars even.

[Assistant] And you were—

[User] All the way back, we had Mars models we built in 1962. Not many people know that. But we had a group of engineers who were thinking ahead about Mars in the early ’60s. Now we’re talking about we can do it in 17 days, and you know—but that’s a fact. Because we had the Mars mission models that we built. Now we didn’t go very far with that, of course. We just did some—built some replica conceptual models.

[Assistant] Interesting at the time. But, too, you had the immediate job of, “Let’s get on with flying to the Moon” by that time.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Once Mercury got well involved, the President [John F. Kennedy] had declared and you had a goal. And I imagine this accelerated things in your life, didn’t it, Jack?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the way back, we had Mars models we built in 1962. Not many people know that. But we had a group of engineers who were thinking ahead about Mars in the early ’60s. Now we’re talking about we can do it in 17 days, and you know—but that’s a fact. Because we had the Mars mission models that we built. Now we didn’t go very far with that, of course. We just did some—built some replica conceptual models.

[Assistant] Interesting at the time. But, too, you had the immediate job of, “Let’s get on with flying to the Moon” by that time.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Once Mercury got well involved, the President [John F. Kennedy] had declared and you had a goal. And I imagine this accelerated things in your life, didn’t it, Jack?

[User] Well, yes it did. It brought on the fact we had to move from Langley. And in addition to that, we were charged with all sorts of responsibilities that I didn’t have before. I had to come on to Houston and design a layout for a shop that would support the research and development we did and—

[Assistant] And it was named Technical Services wasn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Once Mercury got well involved, the President [John F. Kennedy] had declared and you had a goal. And I imagine this accelerated things in your life, didn’t it, Jack?

[User] Well, yes it did. It brought on the fact we had to move from Langley. And in addition to that, we were charged with all sorts of responsibilities that I didn’t have before. I had to come on to Houston and design a layout for a shop that would support the research and development we did and—

[Assistant] And it was named Technical Services wasn't it?

[User] [Technical] Services Division. Yes.

[Assistant] You finally had a title.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes it did. It brought on the fact we had to move from Langley. And in addition to that, we were charged with all sorts of responsibilities that I didn’t have before. I had to come on to Houston and design a layout for a shop that would support the research and development we did and—

[Assistant] And it was named Technical Services wasn't it?

[User] [Technical] Services Division. Yes.

[Assistant] You finally had a title.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] You were Director of Technical Services.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Technical] Services Division. Yes.

[Assistant] You finally had a title.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] You were Director of Technical Services.

[User] Yes. I left my title with Bob Gilruth as his Technical Assistant and became Technical Service Division Chief.

[Assistant] And what did that really mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Right.

[Assistant] You were really building up to that.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Did you actually involve yourselves at the time also with the working hardware that would fly with the astronauts?

[User] We built flight hardware from day one. They call it “flight hardware” when it’s going into flight. And I’ve been talking about boilerplates and models and capsules and such, but flight hardware was a common activity of our department—both in Langley, when we—well, they didn’t bring—they built—they didn’t build any flight hardware there. They just built the early prototype Mercury stuff. But once we got to Houston, we made things that were mostly the experiments that had to do with each flight. We would build the total experiment in house. And the experiment could be, you know, a lot of machine work and electronic wiring and hookups. And the development of exercise equipment for the astronauts. You know, the thing now that everybody uses to walk on in place? We built prototypes of those in our shops. And they actually flew those things!

[Assistant] Let me get this straight, too, Jack. Because basically, you were getting the spacecraft from the contractor. Others were concerned with making that spacecraft flightworthy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Did you actually involve yourselves at the time also with the working hardware that would fly with the astronauts?

[User] We built flight hardware from day one. They call it “flight hardware” when it’s going into flight. And I’ve been talking about boilerplates and models and capsules and such, but flight hardware was a common activity of our department—both in Langley, when we—well, they didn’t bring—they built—they didn’t build any flight hardware there. They just built the early prototype Mercury stuff. But once we got to Houston, we made things that were mostly the experiments that had to do with each flight. We would build the total experiment in house. And the experiment could be, you know, a lot of machine work and electronic wiring and hookups. And the development of exercise equipment for the astronauts. You know, the thing now that everybody uses to walk on in place? We built prototypes of those in our shops. And they actually flew those things!

[Assistant] Let me get this straight, too, Jack. Because basically, you were getting the spacecraft from the contractor. Others were concerned with making that spacecraft flightworthy.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You were basically handling or developing flight articles to be developed and used.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We built flight hardware from day one. They call it “flight hardware” when it’s going into flight. And I’ve been talking about boilerplates and models and capsules and such, but flight hardware was a common activity of our department—both in Langley, when we—well, they didn’t bring—they built—they didn’t build any flight hardware there. They just built the early prototype Mercury stuff. But once we got to Houston, we made things that were mostly the experiments that had to do with each flight. We would build the total experiment in house. And the experiment could be, you know, a lot of machine work and electronic wiring and hookups. And the development of exercise equipment for the astronauts. You know, the thing now that everybody uses to walk on in place? We built prototypes of those in our shops. And they actually flew those things!

[Assistant] Let me get this straight, too, Jack. Because basically, you were getting the spacecraft from the contractor. Others were concerned with making that spacecraft flightworthy.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You were basically handling or developing flight articles to be developed and used.

[User] Flight articles to be flown. That’s right. Flight articles. But then there were times when the Apollo fire came and they had a bolted hatch together, and it was determined, “This is impossible. We shouldn’t have anything like this. You can’t get out quick enough.” We built a alternate quick-opening hatch in our shops as a fix for the Apollo fire change design. We built it from their drawings, the actual full-size door that had hinges and it would open quickly; and you didn’t have the complications of the other one. So, we had times when we built things that were actually put right onboard.

[Assistant] And that was the design that was adopted then as the fix was made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You were basically handling or developing flight articles to be developed and used.

[User] Flight articles to be flown. That’s right. Flight articles. But then there were times when the Apollo fire came and they had a bolted hatch together, and it was determined, “This is impossible. We shouldn’t have anything like this. You can’t get out quick enough.” We built a alternate quick-opening hatch in our shops as a fix for the Apollo fire change design. We built it from their drawings, the actual full-size door that had hinges and it would open quickly; and you didn’t have the complications of the other one. So, we had times when we built things that were actually put right onboard.

[Assistant] And that was the design that was adopted then as the fix was made?

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] Redesigned the Apollo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Flight articles to be flown. That’s right. Flight articles. But then there were times when the Apollo fire came and they had a bolted hatch together, and it was determined, “This is impossible. We shouldn’t have anything like this. You can’t get out quick enough.” We built a alternate quick-opening hatch in our shops as a fix for the Apollo fire change design. We built it from their drawings, the actual full-size door that had hinges and it would open quickly; and you didn’t have the complications of the other one. So, we had times when we built things that were actually put right onboard.

[Assistant] And that was the design that was adopted then as the fix was made?

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] Redesigned the Apollo.

[User] Redesigned the Apollo, where they decided the door hatch was a limiter and would be very apt to, you know, cause a future problems, if they had another fire or whatever. So, they quickly got together and came up with a completely modified design that opened in seconds.

[Assistant] I remember, too, during that time you were doing a lot dealing with EVA [extravehicular activity]. Spacewalking. Propulsion systems. That sort of thing. Can you describe those for us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That’s right.

[Assistant] Redesigned the Apollo.

[User] Redesigned the Apollo, where they decided the door hatch was a limiter and would be very apt to, you know, cause a future problems, if they had another fire or whatever. So, they quickly got together and came up with a completely modified design that opened in seconds.

[Assistant] I remember, too, during that time you were doing a lot dealing with EVA [extravehicular activity]. Spacewalking. Propulsion systems. That sort of thing. Can you describe those for us?

[User] Yes. When they were nearing the time to go into trying for spacewalks, we had an engineer who came into our shops and said, “I think I’ve got an idea. The Russians opened their hatch and they dangled their astronaut out,” Yuri [A.] Gagarin, I think it was. I’m not sure.

[Assistant] The first guy who did the walk—oh, the first one—the first one was [Alexei A.] Leonov, who did the first spacewalk.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. When they were nearing the time to go into trying for spacewalks, we had an engineer who came into our shops and said, “I think I’ve got an idea. The Russians opened their hatch and they dangled their astronaut out,” Yuri [A.] Gagarin, I think it was. I’m not sure.

[Assistant] The first guy who did the walk—oh, the first one—the first one was [Alexei A.] Leonov, who did the first spacewalk.

[User] Leonov, okay.

[Assistant] Leonov.

[User] Well, Leonov came out of his hatch and dangled on his umbilical cord. So, a fellow named Harold [I.] Johnson that worked—you might have heard his name. Harold Johnson thought, “Gosh, we can do better than that.” And we were only weeks behind the—Leonov being the first EVA. So, within weeks, he came over. We quickly built a handheld maneuvering unit—totally built in our shop. It had nitrogen bottles with compressed air—compressed nitrogen in it in a tube. And then it had some little wings, tubular wings that would hinge out, and they had nozzles on their ends. And it had a hand control that moved—that moved up and down. And we fixed that up for Ed [Edward H.] White [II].\n\n And Ed White got outside of his hatch. He went outside and opened up the wings on this maneuvering unit, and he motored around—forward, backward, up, down, and everything—and we were so proud that we Americans had done something meaningful! We gave an astronaut something that he could maneuver with rather than just dangle. So, that’s that story. But that was done in Tech Services.

[Assistant] The HHMU. Handheld maneuvering unit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Leonov, okay.

[Assistant] Leonov.

[User] Well, Leonov came out of his hatch and dangled on his umbilical cord. So, a fellow named Harold [I.] Johnson that worked—you might have heard his name. Harold Johnson thought, “Gosh, we can do better than that.” And we were only weeks behind the—Leonov being the first EVA. So, within weeks, he came over. We quickly built a handheld maneuvering unit—totally built in our shop. It had nitrogen bottles with compressed air—compressed nitrogen in it in a tube. And then it had some little wings, tubular wings that would hinge out, and they had nozzles on their ends. And it had a hand control that moved—that moved up and down. And we fixed that up for Ed [Edward H.] White [II].\n\n And Ed White got outside of his hatch. He went outside and opened up the wings on this maneuvering unit, and he motored around—forward, backward, up, down, and everything—and we were so proud that we Americans had done something meaningful! We gave an astronaut something that he could maneuver with rather than just dangle. So, that’s that story. But that was done in Tech Services.

[Assistant] The HHMU. Handheld maneuvering unit.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There must’ve been lots of others, dealing with EVAs, like, oh, handholds later on so the astronauts could figure out how to maintain a work status in space.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] There must’ve been lots of others, dealing with EVAs, like, oh, handholds later on so the astronauts could figure out how to maintain a work status in space.

[User] Yes. Yeah, there were. Even after I retired in ’77, I had contact still with some of the contract engineers with Rockwell [International Corp.]. And they’d call me once in a while and ask—I had a machine shop in my—in my garage, a real minimum one but a shop! Once a machinist, always one. And I got a subcontract arrangement so that I could do work and be paid by the contractor on occasion. And one occasion was the—on the Shuttle.\n\n They realized that the way the Shuttle was coupled together they had the doors, the hatches that opened, they were entirely latched together with one continuous group of rods, interconnecting, so that they would all do the same thing together. You know, the latches that lift them? Well, they got thinking about this. “What if those things hang up? What if they open the hatch and it won’t close? That would be the end of the Shuttle right there.” So, are we doing okay?

[Assistant] Oh, I’m—don’t you worry about the time. That’s my job.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I’ll worry about it. You worry about just telling me a story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah, there were. Even after I retired in ’77, I had contact still with some of the contract engineers with Rockwell [International Corp.]. And they’d call me once in a while and ask—I had a machine shop in my—in my garage, a real minimum one but a shop! Once a machinist, always one. And I got a subcontract arrangement so that I could do work and be paid by the contractor on occasion. And one occasion was the—on the Shuttle.\n\n They realized that the way the Shuttle was coupled together they had the doors, the hatches that opened, they were entirely latched together with one continuous group of rods, interconnecting, so that they would all do the same thing together. You know, the latches that lift them? Well, they got thinking about this. “What if those things hang up? What if they open the hatch and it won’t close? That would be the end of the Shuttle right there.” So, are we doing okay?

[Assistant] Oh, I’m—don’t you worry about the time. That’s my job.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I’ll worry about it. You worry about just telling me a story.

[User] Ok. Well, we drifted about a bit. But this is a good—

[Assistant] Yeah, it’s a good one. A darn good one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I’ll worry about it. You worry about just telling me a story.

[User] Ok. Well, we drifted about a bit. But this is a good—

[Assistant] Yeah, it’s a good one. A darn good one.

[User] —I’m retired, and they come by and call and say, “Do you suppose you could think of some way we could change this, disconnect this continuous linkage in some fashion, so that it wouldn’t be as likely to lock up the whole system? You know, we’d operate more freely. And then we need some tools in which to do that.” So, I built a lot of tools that were—I designed the tools, actually, with a sketch from an engineer saying, “I need something that can reach around this far and get a hold of a linkage and be able to maneuver it, you know, by frictional grip.” So, I actually designed (just paper design) some latching separating devices, which they took over to the Johnson Center and ran tests on them. And they adopted that scheme of things. So, then they wound up making all the hatch doors so that they could be safely operated without jamming, without the entire system jamming. So, that’s a case where I wasn’t even working at Johnson Center. I was retired!

[Assistant] That was later on.