[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But both families thought we were absolutely stone cold nuts for doing this. Mary was an only child, so her parents were particularly apprehensive about this. They thought it was just just wacko for us to be doing what we were doing. But while they would express their opinion, there was never any effort made to stop us. There was no bribery. There was no there were no threats. You know, if you go, we'll never speak again. You know, none of that stuff.

[Assistant] And Mary was as committed to going as you were.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Because sometimes there’s a.

[User] Oh, no, no, no, no. She was she was very definitely. She was a very, very active volunteer in in Chicago youth programs during undergraduate school. She was you know, she was in fact, I I think if you had to take the temperature of the two of us, I would say that Mary was probably even more committed than I was to the idea of the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So farewells in Chicago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Because sometimes there’s a.

[User] Oh, no, no, no, no. She was she was very definitely. She was a very, very active volunteer in in Chicago youth programs during undergraduate school. She was you know, she was in fact, I I think if you had to take the temperature of the two of us, I would say that Mary was probably even more committed than I was to the idea of the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So farewells in Chicago.

[User] Farewells in Chicago. One day blue, I think, with the group in Miami and we all get on a plane and go to La Paz.

[Assistant] Ok, you want to talk about your initial you've never been to Bolivia. I never had to go get your initial response to being in the environment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, no, no, no. She was she was very definitely. She was a very, very active volunteer in in Chicago youth programs during undergraduate school. She was you know, she was in fact, I I think if you had to take the temperature of the two of us, I would say that Mary was probably even more committed than I was to the idea of the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So farewells in Chicago.

[User] Farewells in Chicago. One day blue, I think, with the group in Miami and we all get on a plane and go to La Paz.

[Assistant] Ok, you want to talk about your initial you've never been to Bolivia. I never had to go get your initial response to being in the environment.

[User] Initial response was superb because I think we wound up being the first volunteers getting off the plane and singing a song in Aymara in the airport. And I thought it was it was really very, very touching. The amazing thing was, Bob, that the Bolivians did not expect white faces to speak Aymara. I know it was an utter shock because you see, oh, although Aymara is one of the official languages and all those Spaniards I certainly speak it in Bolivia. No one owns up to being able to speak Aymara, no one who is mestizo, no one who is who is in the upper classes would even admit to that because it is almost as if it's a it's a badge of shame in a way. And here we were, singing a song, a folk song, at the airport and getting our photograph on the front page of the El Diario the following day.

[Assistant] Now, let's talk briefly about the situation in Bolivia. Indigenous Aymara people in a distinctly subordinate role in the society?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Farewells in Chicago. One day blue, I think, with the group in Miami and we all get on a plane and go to La Paz.

[Assistant] Ok, you want to talk about your initial you've never been to Bolivia. I never had to go get your initial response to being in the environment.

[User] Initial response was superb because I think we wound up being the first volunteers getting off the plane and singing a song in Aymara in the airport. And I thought it was it was really very, very touching. The amazing thing was, Bob, that the Bolivians did not expect white faces to speak Aymara. I know it was an utter shock because you see, oh, although Aymara is one of the official languages and all those Spaniards I certainly speak it in Bolivia. No one owns up to being able to speak Aymara, no one who is mestizo, no one who is who is in the upper classes would even admit to that because it is almost as if it's a it's a badge of shame in a way. And here we were, singing a song, a folk song, at the airport and getting our photograph on the front page of the El Diario the following day.

[Assistant] Now, let's talk briefly about the situation in Bolivia. Indigenous Aymara people in a distinctly subordinate role in the society?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Just no question about it.

[Assistant] So you know, you're singing that in Aymara is even doubly shocking.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Initial response was superb because I think we wound up being the first volunteers getting off the plane and singing a song in Aymara in the airport. And I thought it was it was really very, very touching. The amazing thing was, Bob, that the Bolivians did not expect white faces to speak Aymara. I know it was an utter shock because you see, oh, although Aymara is one of the official languages and all those Spaniards I certainly speak it in Bolivia. No one owns up to being able to speak Aymara, no one who is mestizo, no one who is who is in the upper classes would even admit to that because it is almost as if it's a it's a badge of shame in a way. And here we were, singing a song, a folk song, at the airport and getting our photograph on the front page of the El Diario the following day.

[Assistant] Now, let's talk briefly about the situation in Bolivia. Indigenous Aymara people in a distinctly subordinate role in the society?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Just no question about it.

[Assistant] So you know, you're singing that in Aymara is even doubly shocking.

[User] It is. Absolutely. And I can remember our first trips to the to the marketplace in La Paz. We just went there just to, you know, kind of check things out the open market, of course. And we would go in there, we would draw crowds because the word would travel through the market that there are white people here speaking Aymara. And, you know, for the most part, there may have been in and I don't mean to say that we were the first in the first because clearly I'll bet there were missionary groups ahead of us who have learned this. But nevertheless, it was it was unusual to see and hear non religiously affiliated people speaking about language.

[Assistant] So the arriving arrival was kind of a high, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. Just no question about it.

[Assistant] So you know, you're singing that in Aymara is even doubly shocking.

[User] It is. Absolutely. And I can remember our first trips to the to the marketplace in La Paz. We just went there just to, you know, kind of check things out the open market, of course. And we would go in there, we would draw crowds because the word would travel through the market that there are white people here speaking Aymara. And, you know, for the most part, there may have been in and I don't mean to say that we were the first in the first because clearly I'll bet there were missionary groups ahead of us who have learned this. But nevertheless, it was it was unusual to see and hear non religiously affiliated people speaking about language.

[Assistant] So the arriving arrival was kind of a high, I mean.

[User] It was a complete high. Yeah. And we went off to the I think we spent maybe a night or two in La Paz and went off to the Ag station to begin our training with the ah with the rural community development workers from Bolivia who are our counterparts. We were going to join training with our counterparts.

[Assistant] Ok, now let's talk about the structure of that training


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. Absolutely. And I can remember our first trips to the to the marketplace in La Paz. We just went there just to, you know, kind of check things out the open market, of course. And we would go in there, we would draw crowds because the word would travel through the market that there are white people here speaking Aymara. And, you know, for the most part, there may have been in and I don't mean to say that we were the first in the first because clearly I'll bet there were missionary groups ahead of us who have learned this. But nevertheless, it was it was unusual to see and hear non religiously affiliated people speaking about language.

[Assistant] So the arriving arrival was kind of a high, I mean.

[User] It was a complete high. Yeah. And we went off to the I think we spent maybe a night or two in La Paz and went off to the Ag station to begin our training with the ah with the rural community development workers from Bolivia who are our counterparts. We were going to join training with our counterparts.

[Assistant] Ok, now let's talk about the structure of that training

[User] I am weak on the structure of it, Bob. I think a bit of it was played by ear. Part of it was a getting to know. A lot of it had to do with very nuts and bolts things such as where on the Altiplano, these village level workers, which was the name given to these. And now all of these people were employees of the Bolivian government. Yeah, they were they were all paid employees of the Bolivian government.

[Assistant] In the community development?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a complete high. Yeah. And we went off to the I think we spent maybe a night or two in La Paz and went off to the Ag station to begin our training with the ah with the rural community development workers from Bolivia who are our counterparts. We were going to join training with our counterparts.

[Assistant] Ok, now let's talk about the structure of that training

[User] I am weak on the structure of it, Bob. I think a bit of it was played by ear. Part of it was a getting to know. A lot of it had to do with very nuts and bolts things such as where on the Altiplano, these village level workers, which was the name given to these. And now all of these people were employees of the Bolivian government. Yeah, they were they were all paid employees of the Bolivian government.

[Assistant] In the community development?

[User] In the rural community development program. And that is correct. The department.

[Assistant] What was their background? Were they high school trained, college trained?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am weak on the structure of it, Bob. I think a bit of it was played by ear. Part of it was a getting to know. A lot of it had to do with very nuts and bolts things such as where on the Altiplano, these village level workers, which was the name given to these. And now all of these people were employees of the Bolivian government. Yeah, they were they were all paid employees of the Bolivian government.

[Assistant] In the community development?

[User] In the rural community development program. And that is correct. The department.

[Assistant] What was their background? Were they high school trained, college trained?

[User] It was it was all over the place. They were certainly Aymara. They were all they were agricultural. Yes, they were all Aymara. Every one of them, Aymara. They were all fluent in Aymara.

[Assistant] And of that of that culture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the rural community development program. And that is correct. The department.

[Assistant] What was their background? Were they high school trained, college trained?

[User] It was it was all over the place. They were certainly Aymara. They were all they were agricultural. Yes, they were all Aymara. Every one of them, Aymara. They were all fluent in Aymara.

[Assistant] And of that of that culture?

[User] Of that culture, they came from, uh, from they were farmers essentially, and had maybe some some secondary education. I really don't know.

[Assistant] Had they done any previous training and training development before they became your counterpart?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was it was all over the place. They were certainly Aymara. They were all they were agricultural. Yes, they were all Aymara. Every one of them, Aymara. They were all fluent in Aymara.

[Assistant] And of that of that culture?

[User] Of that culture, they came from, uh, from they were farmers essentially, and had maybe some some secondary education. I really don't know.

[Assistant] Had they done any previous training and training development before they became your counterpart?

[User] But I believe that the Bolivian National Community Development Program had a training program for them before our arrival. So how long that had been? I really don't remember.

[Assistant] Let's back up just briefly. You know, if it with Peace Corps, if a group of people are in training to become teachers in the country, you know, at some point there usually a fair number of non teachers in the group, they'll do something to give you the team skills about teaching. Was there anything in training up to this point about community development, theoretically or specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, absolutely not. Two groups. And no, it's it's not that we were paired off with specific Bolivians. The whole idea was that all of us were to kind of mingle together because this was the beginning of the feeling out process where you want it to work. And the idea was that the Peace Corps was hoping that some village level workers would hit it off with us. We would hit it off with specific village level workers. And lo and behold, maybe during that 30 day period we had to select a site. We'd be going out to their particular communities and wanting to.

[Assistant] So each of them had already came with a community identity.

[User] That is correct. That is correct.

[Assistant] It was extremely unlikely that they would choose to go outside of the area to work.

[User] Oh, most definitely not. They were they were pretty much anchored in an area.

[Assistant] What kind of competition that would emerge? I mean, if I were one of the Bolivian workers, I'd say, well, I want to get that guy to come to my village because he's, you know, great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is correct. That is correct.

[Assistant] It was extremely unlikely that they would choose to go outside of the area to work.

[User] Oh, most definitely not. They were they were pretty much anchored in an area.

[Assistant] What kind of competition that would emerge? I mean, if I were one of the Bolivian workers, I'd say, well, I want to get that guy to come to my village because he's, you know, great.

[User] Absolutely. There's no question about it. In fact, one of the one of the one with the fellows in in our group was a fellow by the name of Corey Schuss. And I believe Corey was from, was born either in Sweden or Norway, just as handsome as could be, probably six feet tall. This is fair Nordic skin and kind of the silver blond hair. I mean, the guy was a knockout. He came right from central casting. Well, let me tell you, because he was tall and because he was this handsome white man. There was a lot of competition for Corey. Corey never was never was at a loss for having a place. Let me tell you. Yes, there was competition.

[Assistant] Let's talk about what happened during the in-country training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In-country training again, was we we learned and were taught a number of things like building a baking oven out of a five gallon alcohol can that could be balanced on top of a kerosene stove in which you could bake bread and and as a consequence, you'd be able to bake it. The the only real fuel on the Altiplano is essentially animal dung. All of the fires, all of the cook stoves in homes, that would just be a pile of animal dung on the floor. And this would be llamas and alpacas, essentially, and sheep excuse me, all three of those. And that would be it. Yeah. And the fumes from those fires are probably not the most healthful in the world, particularly when they're in a confined area. And as a consequence, the idea of baking on a on a little kerosene stove and being able to do it in this in these cans that were ultimately discards was really a treat. And one of the things we used to do in the courses was actually to bake bread while we were we were out in the course. And we were also introduced to the the program in cooperatives that the rural community development program had. We were introduced to things like the design of sheep and alpaca dips where animals would run down a ramp, run through a bath, and run up the other ramp to get rid of all of the insects and so on that were cheapening the wool.

[Assistant] Now these these things you were learning would be new to the Bolivians as well?

[User] No, I didn't. I think in some ways they may have been new, but I couldn't say that for certain. I just don't know.

[Assistant] Had had Peace Corps been working in community development before you came?

[User] They may have been working in community development, but I don't know if the shoulder to shoulder affiliation with the National Rural Community Development Program was as close as it was going to be with this group.

[Assistant] So you were kind of going from square one?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't. I think in some ways they may have been new, but I couldn't say that for certain. I just don't know.

[Assistant] Had had Peace Corps been working in community development before you came?

[User] They may have been working in community development, but I don't know if the shoulder to shoulder affiliation with the National Rural Community Development Program was as close as it was going to be with this group.

[Assistant] So you were kind of going from square one?

[User] We were, yes.

[Assistant] Was it likely you would be going end up in a village where a Peace Corps volunteer had already been?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They may have been working in community development, but I don't know if the shoulder to shoulder affiliation with the National Rural Community Development Program was as close as it was going to be with this group.

[Assistant] So you were kind of going from square one?

[User] We were, yes.

[Assistant] Was it likely you would be going end up in a village where a Peace Corps volunteer had already been?

[User] Well, there were no no, there was no likelihood of that.

[Assistant] Well, that's any likelihood as you're in the middle of this. What's your feeling? I mean, you've joined you've been suddenly in Bolivia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were, yes.

[Assistant] Was it likely you would be going end up in a village where a Peace Corps volunteer had already been?

[User] Well, there were no no, there was no likelihood of that.

[Assistant] Well, that's any likelihood as you're in the middle of this. What's your feeling? I mean, you've joined you've been suddenly in Bolivia.

[User] And, you know, it was it was it was a it was a bit of a jar, but we were so busy and so active we were that we paid much attention to it. The one thing that was a bit shocking was to think that you were almost on the equator. And yet because of the altitude. Right. It was really chilly. You know, when you would get into the shade, it was chilly. And what altitude were you working? We were working pretty much in the depending upon where you were in probably 11,500 to 13,000 feet.

[Assistant] So, when you first got there, there must have been a real adjustment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were no no, there was no likelihood of that.

[Assistant] Well, that's any likelihood as you're in the middle of this. What's your feeling? I mean, you've joined you've been suddenly in Bolivia.

[User] And, you know, it was it was it was a it was a bit of a jar, but we were so busy and so active we were that we paid much attention to it. The one thing that was a bit shocking was to think that you were almost on the equator. And yet because of the altitude. Right. It was really chilly. You know, when you would get into the shade, it was chilly. And what altitude were you working? We were working pretty much in the depending upon where you were in probably 11,500 to 13,000 feet.

[Assistant] So, when you first got there, there must have been a real adjustment?

[User] There was we were we were in La Paz for a few days. We were given some pretty specific instructions about what to do and not do during that time. Yeah, one of the things was, oh, look, don't try to run up and down these streets because you're really going to it's going to be taxing go very easy on beer and wine or any kind of alcohol because you're going to get lightheaded very, very quickly.

[Assistant] Were you a smoker back then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, it was it was it was a it was a bit of a jar, but we were so busy and so active we were that we paid much attention to it. The one thing that was a bit shocking was to think that you were almost on the equator. And yet because of the altitude. Right. It was really chilly. You know, when you would get into the shade, it was chilly. And what altitude were you working? We were working pretty much in the depending upon where you were in probably 11,500 to 13,000 feet.

[Assistant] So, when you first got there, there must have been a real adjustment?

[User] There was we were we were in La Paz for a few days. We were given some pretty specific instructions about what to do and not do during that time. Yeah, one of the things was, oh, look, don't try to run up and down these streets because you're really going to it's going to be taxing go very easy on beer and wine or any kind of alcohol because you're going to get lightheaded very, very quickly.

[Assistant] Were you a smoker back then?

[User] No, no, no, no. So that was not an issue for me, but for other volunteers it was. And, you know, we all kind of paced ourselves.

[Assistant] For yourself, you remember there was an adjustment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was we were we were in La Paz for a few days. We were given some pretty specific instructions about what to do and not do during that time. Yeah, one of the things was, oh, look, don't try to run up and down these streets because you're really going to it's going to be taxing go very easy on beer and wine or any kind of alcohol because you're going to get lightheaded very, very quickly.

[Assistant] Were you a smoker back then?

[User] No, no, no, no. So that was not an issue for me, but for other volunteers it was. And, you know, we all kind of paced ourselves.

[Assistant] For yourself, you remember there was an adjustment.

[User] Oh, sure.

[Assistant] But it wasn't a major problem?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no, no. So that was not an issue for me, but for other volunteers it was. And, you know, we all kind of paced ourselves.

[Assistant] For yourself, you remember there was an adjustment.

[User] Oh, sure.

[Assistant] But it wasn't a major problem?

[User] Not significant. No, no, no.

[Assistant] So talk, what is it? Four week in-country training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure.

[Assistant] But it wasn't a major problem?

[User] Not significant. No, no, no.

[Assistant] So talk, what is it? Four week in-country training?

[User] Four week in-country training.

[Assistant] Talk about generally how it went and what what was the outcome?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not significant. No, no, no.

[Assistant] So talk, what is it? Four week in-country training?

[User] Four week in-country training.

[Assistant] Talk about generally how it went and what what was the outcome?

[User] I think it went I think it went on balance very positively. There were a couple of volunteers for whom it became very clear that that Bolivia was not for them. And they essentially self selected out of the program. Right. And they were gone. So we we all made it through. It was it was an adjustment. And we still knew that we had an adjustment ahead of us because we had to go out and find our priorities.

[Assistant] Now, during this period, were you working in any given day, mostly in Spanish or Aymara?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Four week in-country training.

[Assistant] Talk about generally how it went and what what was the outcome?

[User] I think it went I think it went on balance very positively. There were a couple of volunteers for whom it became very clear that that Bolivia was not for them. And they essentially self selected out of the program. Right. And they were gone. So we we all made it through. It was it was an adjustment. And we still knew that we had an adjustment ahead of us because we had to go out and find our priorities.

[Assistant] Now, during this period, were you working in any given day, mostly in Spanish or Aymara?

[User] A little combination of both.

[Assistant] So you had a chance to phase into using Aymara?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it went I think it went on balance very positively. There were a couple of volunteers for whom it became very clear that that Bolivia was not for them. And they essentially self selected out of the program. Right. And they were gone. So we we all made it through. It was it was an adjustment. And we still knew that we had an adjustment ahead of us because we had to go out and find our priorities.

[Assistant] Now, during this period, were you working in any given day, mostly in Spanish or Aymara?

[User] A little combination of both.

[Assistant] So you had a chance to phase into using Aymara?

[User] We did. We did, yes.

[Assistant] Not everyone had as much Aymara training as you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little combination of both.

[Assistant] So you had a chance to phase into using Aymara?

[User] We did. We did, yes.

[Assistant] Not everyone had as much Aymara training as you do?

[User] Probably not. Yeah, but it is difficult because it has it has some glottal stops in it. You do things. There are a few click kind of sounds in it. And, you know, it's it's tricky, but we certainly had the basics to get along.

[Assistant] But at any given site, you would likely find people who spoke, their first language might be Aymara, but there would be some Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. We did, yes.

[Assistant] Not everyone had as much Aymara training as you do?

[User] Probably not. Yeah, but it is difficult because it has it has some glottal stops in it. You do things. There are a few click kind of sounds in it. And, you know, it's it's tricky, but we certainly had the basics to get along.

[Assistant] But at any given site, you would likely find people who spoke, their first language might be Aymara, but there would be some Spanish?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] How about English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably not. Yeah, but it is difficult because it has it has some glottal stops in it. You do things. There are a few click kind of sounds in it. And, you know, it's it's tricky, but we certainly had the basics to get along.

[Assistant] But at any given site, you would likely find people who spoke, their first language might be Aymara, but there would be some Spanish?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] How about English?

[User] No, no English at all.

[Assistant] So someone who had not picked up on either of the languages terribly well would have a difficult time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] How about English?

[User] No, no English at all.

[Assistant] So someone who had not picked up on either of the languages terribly well would have a difficult time.

[User] I think quite difficult, yes. Yes. I should backtrack for a moment when I said no English and I'm going to get ahead of myself just for a moment. But ultimately, the work location that we chose was headed by a a provincial director, a Bolivian who did speak some English. It was it was halting, but he did speak some English from his background.

[Assistant] Was your Spanish was pretty good?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no English at all.

[Assistant] So someone who had not picked up on either of the languages terribly well would have a difficult time.

[User] I think quite difficult, yes. Yes. I should backtrack for a moment when I said no English and I'm going to get ahead of myself just for a moment. But ultimately, the work location that we chose was headed by a a provincial director, a Bolivian who did speak some English. It was it was halting, but he did speak some English from his background.

[Assistant] Was your Spanish was pretty good?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Aymara as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think quite difficult, yes. Yes. I should backtrack for a moment when I said no English and I'm going to get ahead of myself just for a moment. But ultimately, the work location that we chose was headed by a a provincial director, a Bolivian who did speak some English. It was it was halting, but he did speak some English from his background.

[Assistant] Was your Spanish was pretty good?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Aymara as well.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Ok, let's during the course of training would emerge as far as. What you were going to be doing, where you were going to be doing it and with whom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Aymara as well.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Ok, let's during the course of training would emerge as far as. What you were going to be doing, where you were going to be doing it and with whom?

[User] Well, we knew pretty much what we were going to be doing and what it was was this we were in conjunction with village level workers. We were going to be designing a let's say, a two or a three day course that we could take on the road and go to a community, present the program and introduce to that community the National Community Development Program and what it could do with and for them. Yeah, that's really what we were so to do.

[Assistant] Who did you finally pick or who finally picked you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Ok, let's during the course of training would emerge as far as. What you were going to be doing, where you were going to be doing it and with whom?

[User] Well, we knew pretty much what we were going to be doing and what it was was this we were in conjunction with village level workers. We were going to be designing a let's say, a two or a three day course that we could take on the road and go to a community, present the program and introduce to that community the National Community Development Program and what it could do with and for them. Yeah, that's really what we were so to do.

[Assistant] Who did you finally pick or who finally picked you?

[User] Well, when we first of all, our training ended at the with the with our Bolivian counterparts, we were we were brought back to La Paz. There was a little ceremony at the hotel in La Paz. We was sworn in and I think it was maybe the next day or two we were on the road and we started to travel to about three or four communities. And that would mean going down either to the bus station or, the big means of transportation on the Altiplano is truck, get onto these huge International Harvester stake bed trucks and so on, that we're hauling all sorts of produce and so on, or by train. And I think we probably visited three or four communities

[Assistant] At this point, your counterparts are back in their village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly, Bob. Pacajes was a large, large province. And it was, the population was dispersed. The Aymara lived in some communities, but they are also pretty widely dispersed in the Altiplano. So you had this combination of things, but he lobbied us and we decided that the four of us know what the living arrangements that we ultimately worked out was that Mary and I and John lived together and Steve lived down the street at another place. He just had a single room for himself, but he came over and took most of his meals with us.

[Assistant] Who provided the housing?

[User] Well, no one provided the housing. We were renters. We actually negotiated and paid rent.

[Assistant] Well, let's you make the decision to go to this town, right. And you pack it up in La Paz and then go out with everything and start looking?

[User] No, we don't. What we do is we first get a place to live. And we worked with Clemente Alcon, who was the head of the community development program. And he put us in touch with a woman who owned some buildings right on the town square. And we negotiated and he it was a compound actually around an open patio. And the family that lived in La Paz and owned this building on this came out from time to time. But for the most part, we had the run of the patio. There was a well in the patio, which was nice and important for us. Yeah, it was also a latrine outback that we were able to use after modifying it in, enhancing it a little bit. So it was it was it was going to be really quite comfortable for us. And also in this province, there were there were let me count the other volunteers that were three other volunteers that selected this province but lived in different communities within the province.

[Assistant] Was the province subdivided into districts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no one provided the housing. We were renters. We actually negotiated and paid rent.

[Assistant] Well, let's you make the decision to go to this town, right. And you pack it up in La Paz and then go out with everything and start looking?

[User] No, we don't. What we do is we first get a place to live. And we worked with Clemente Alcon, who was the head of the community development program. And he put us in touch with a woman who owned some buildings right on the town square. And we negotiated and he it was a compound actually around an open patio. And the family that lived in La Paz and owned this building on this came out from time to time. But for the most part, we had the run of the patio. There was a well in the patio, which was nice and important for us. Yeah, it was also a latrine outback that we were able to use after modifying it in, enhancing it a little bit. So it was it was it was going to be really quite comfortable for us. And also in this province, there were there were let me count the other volunteers that were three other volunteers that selected this province but lived in different communities within the province.

[Assistant] Was the province subdivided into districts?

[User] Not that we were aware of or that was particularly noteworthy.

[Assistant] What was the background of the the regional director who you went to work for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we don't. What we do is we first get a place to live. And we worked with Clemente Alcon, who was the head of the community development program. And he put us in touch with a woman who owned some buildings right on the town square. And we negotiated and he it was a compound actually around an open patio. And the family that lived in La Paz and owned this building on this came out from time to time. But for the most part, we had the run of the patio. There was a well in the patio, which was nice and important for us. Yeah, it was also a latrine outback that we were able to use after modifying it in, enhancing it a little bit. So it was it was it was going to be really quite comfortable for us. And also in this province, there were there were let me count the other volunteers that were three other volunteers that selected this province but lived in different communities within the province.

[Assistant] Was the province subdivided into districts?

[User] Not that we were aware of or that was particularly noteworthy.

[Assistant] What was the background of the the regional director who you went to work for?

[User] The regional director was an interesting guy. He actually he was a Bolivian who spent a lot of time in the Yungas, which are the the valleys as you go down into the lowlands of Bolivia. But they are they are at a high enough altitude to be very pleasant from a temperature standpoint. Coffee is grown down in this area. But he was very active politically. He had been he had gotten some of these scarves along the way, but he had been quite an activist.

[Assistant] Just generally, what was the political situation in Bolivia while you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not that we were aware of or that was particularly noteworthy.

[Assistant] What was the background of the the regional director who you went to work for?

[User] The regional director was an interesting guy. He actually he was a Bolivian who spent a lot of time in the Yungas, which are the the valleys as you go down into the lowlands of Bolivia. But they are they are at a high enough altitude to be very pleasant from a temperature standpoint. Coffee is grown down in this area. But he was very active politically. He had been he had gotten some of these scarves along the way, but he had been quite an activist.

[Assistant] Just generally, what was the political situation in Bolivia while you were there?

[User] Political situation in Bolivia was relatively quiet when we arrived. I believe the president at the time was General Rene Barrientos. And the interesting thing about Barrientos is that he was an Indian and that was an unusual thing. And in Latin America, the rule generally is that there are there are two paths for an Indian to upward mobility. One of them is the military, of course. And General Barrientos became a general in the Air Force. And, of course, that is that's the cream of the crop. You know, that's cutting edge. And these people fly planes. My God. You know, no one in Bolivia has been on a plane or very few have, right, so it's a position of prominence. And the other way to to achieve upward mobility, if you're an Indian, is to do it through the clergy. You go off to a seminary and maybe you become a bishop or something of that later. But those are two definite paths to upward mobility. He was the president when we arrived.

[Assistant] So it was relatively stable and tended to be pro-American or neutral?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Political situation in Bolivia was relatively quiet when we arrived. I believe the president at the time was General Rene Barrientos. And the interesting thing about Barrientos is that he was an Indian and that was an unusual thing. And in Latin America, the rule generally is that there are there are two paths for an Indian to upward mobility. One of them is the military, of course. And General Barrientos became a general in the Air Force. And, of course, that is that's the cream of the crop. You know, that's cutting edge. And these people fly planes. My God. You know, no one in Bolivia has been on a plane or very few have, right, so it's a position of prominence. And the other way to to achieve upward mobility, if you're an Indian, is to do it through the clergy. You go off to a seminary and maybe you become a bishop or something of that later. But those are two definite paths to upward mobility. He was the president when we arrived.

[Assistant] So it was relatively stable and tended to be pro-American or neutral?

[User] Or I think it was it was cautiously pro-American, but not fawning. So they weren't they weren't bending over backwards. But they I think what they were doing, they knew that there were some advantages economically, politically to to at least being non inimical to the to the states. And they were now Bolivia is a country with a very, very checkered history. And the statistic when we arrived was this, there have been more presidents of Bolivia than years of independence of Bolivia since it became a republic. You know, a very, very tumultuous place.

[Assistant] Let's get you to work, though. You you've settled in. You have a place to stay. Talk about the, after that at that for the first few weeks.

[User] Ok, first few weeks, you know, we kind of get ourselves settled in.

[Assistant] Was it an office you go to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or I think it was it was cautiously pro-American, but not fawning. So they weren't they weren't bending over backwards. But they I think what they were doing, they knew that there were some advantages economically, politically to to at least being non inimical to the to the states. And they were now Bolivia is a country with a very, very checkered history. And the statistic when we arrived was this, there have been more presidents of Bolivia than years of independence of Bolivia since it became a republic. You know, a very, very tumultuous place.

[Assistant] Let's get you to work, though. You you've settled in. You have a place to stay. Talk about the, after that at that for the first few weeks.

[User] Ok, first few weeks, you know, we kind of get ourselves settled in.

[Assistant] Was it an office you go to?

[User] No, no, no. Absolutely not. There is no, because Clemente worked out of his home. There really is not, there's no formal.

[Assistant] There's no fancy ministry office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, first few weeks, you know, we kind of get ourselves settled in.

[Assistant] Was it an office you go to?

[User] No, no, no. Absolutely not. There is no, because Clemente worked out of his home. There really is not, there's no formal.

[Assistant] There's no fancy ministry office?

[User] Oh, absolutely not. No, no, no. Calacoto was really pretty down and out. Calacoto did have a very large church. And there was a priest from Spain who resided in the town.

[Assistant] In the town, were there are other non Bolivians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. Absolutely not. There is no, because Clemente worked out of his home. There really is not, there's no formal.

[Assistant] There's no fancy ministry office?

[User] Oh, absolutely not. No, no, no. Calacoto was really pretty down and out. Calacoto did have a very large church. And there was a priest from Spain who resided in the town.

[Assistant] In the town, were there are other non Bolivians?

[User] So maybe other than the priest, you know, just the people in the in the town, there were maybe two little grocery stores we went around to, you know, introduce ourselves, get ourselves known.

[Assistant] What could you buy at the grocery store?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely not. No, no, no. Calacoto was really pretty down and out. Calacoto did have a very large church. And there was a priest from Spain who resided in the town.

[Assistant] In the town, were there are other non Bolivians?

[User] So maybe other than the priest, you know, just the people in the in the town, there were maybe two little grocery stores we went around to, you know, introduce ourselves, get ourselves known.

[Assistant] What could you buy at the grocery store?

[User] You could buy rice. You could buy breads that were with that were baked locally. You could buy beer, you could buy things like shampoo, some personal needs. But they were very, very small shops, tiny places. So we got to know them. And then Clemente, we would get into his his truck and he took us around to some communities. All four of you. All four of us. That's right. Now, Steve Jeffries, who did not live with with Mary, John and me. Steve was the baby of the group. He was nineteen years old, but he was a farm boy from East Tennessee. So believe it or not, Steve was the only one who really knew his way around because John was from San Francisco. Liberal education, Mary and I, both from Chicago. What do we know about farming? Yeah, nothing at all. So, Clemente kind of takes us around and shows us how, you know, the newly arrived gringos, kind of explains to local communities what we could do. And pretty quickly, invitations start to roll in to us, come out to our community and give one of your courses.

[Assistant] Now, where is your counterpart or is Clemente your counterpart?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So maybe other than the priest, you know, just the people in the in the town, there were maybe two little grocery stores we went around to, you know, introduce ourselves, get ourselves known.

[Assistant] What could you buy at the grocery store?

[User] You could buy rice. You could buy breads that were with that were baked locally. You could buy beer, you could buy things like shampoo, some personal needs. But they were very, very small shops, tiny places. So we got to know them. And then Clemente, we would get into his his truck and he took us around to some communities. All four of you. All four of us. That's right. Now, Steve Jeffries, who did not live with with Mary, John and me. Steve was the baby of the group. He was nineteen years old, but he was a farm boy from East Tennessee. So believe it or not, Steve was the only one who really knew his way around because John was from San Francisco. Liberal education, Mary and I, both from Chicago. What do we know about farming? Yeah, nothing at all. So, Clemente kind of takes us around and shows us how, you know, the newly arrived gringos, kind of explains to local communities what we could do. And pretty quickly, invitations start to roll in to us, come out to our community and give one of your courses.

[Assistant] Now, where is your counterpart or is Clemente your counterpart?

[User] You know, Clemente is really our counterpart reporting directly to him near the village level, workers with whom we had our in-country training. So we are actually dealing kind of at one level above the village level work. Right. But the idea was we did that not for any kind of prestige, but for our ability to be able to get to all of the different communities, because the village level workers, they competed among themselves, of course, and they'd be knocking on Clemente’s door saying, Clemente, come on, send the gringos out to us.

[Assistant] Now, as he went out to these villages, did you encounter village level workers with whom you had done that in country training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You could buy rice. You could buy breads that were with that were baked locally. You could buy beer, you could buy things like shampoo, some personal needs. But they were very, very small shops, tiny places. So we got to know them. And then Clemente, we would get into his his truck and he took us around to some communities. All four of you. All four of us. That's right. Now, Steve Jeffries, who did not live with with Mary, John and me. Steve was the baby of the group. He was nineteen years old, but he was a farm boy from East Tennessee. So believe it or not, Steve was the only one who really knew his way around because John was from San Francisco. Liberal education, Mary and I, both from Chicago. What do we know about farming? Yeah, nothing at all. So, Clemente kind of takes us around and shows us how, you know, the newly arrived gringos, kind of explains to local communities what we could do. And pretty quickly, invitations start to roll in to us, come out to our community and give one of your courses.

[Assistant] Now, where is your counterpart or is Clemente your counterpart?

[User] You know, Clemente is really our counterpart reporting directly to him near the village level, workers with whom we had our in-country training. So we are actually dealing kind of at one level above the village level work. Right. But the idea was we did that not for any kind of prestige, but for our ability to be able to get to all of the different communities, because the village level workers, they competed among themselves, of course, and they'd be knocking on Clemente’s door saying, Clemente, come on, send the gringos out to us.

[Assistant] Now, as he went out to these villages, did you encounter village level workers with whom you had done that in country training?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. We most certainly did.

[Assistant] There were some connections there already?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, Clemente is really our counterpart reporting directly to him near the village level, workers with whom we had our in-country training. So we are actually dealing kind of at one level above the village level work. Right. But the idea was we did that not for any kind of prestige, but for our ability to be able to get to all of the different communities, because the village level workers, they competed among themselves, of course, and they'd be knocking on Clemente’s door saying, Clemente, come on, send the gringos out to us.

[Assistant] Now, as he went out to these villages, did you encounter village level workers with whom you had done that in country training?

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. We most certainly did.

[Assistant] There were some connections there already?

[User] Absolutely. And they were they were

[Assistant] Talk about your first trip. Did you and Mary do work together all the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely. We most certainly did.

[Assistant] There were some connections there already?

[User] Absolutely. And they were they were

[Assistant] Talk about your first trip. Did you and Mary do work together all the time?

[User] We did. Actually, Mary, John, Steve, and I would go out. The four of us would go out.

[Assistant] And it would always be the four of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. And they were they were

[Assistant] Talk about your first trip. Did you and Mary do work together all the time?

[User] We did. Actually, Mary, John, Steve, and I would go out. The four of us would go out.

[Assistant] And it would always be the four of you?

[User] It would always be the four of us. And here's what here's what the deal was. We essentially had to pack up everything to sustain life during those three or four days because we were usually given the local school in which to live. Or some abandoned building somewhere in the community. So we would bring everything. We would bring food. We would bring we would bring our sleeping bags. We would bring maybe inflatable mattresses to to put on the floor. But we essentially moved our household out there and we lived in that community for the time we were there.

[Assistant] Can you describe one of the early visits to a community where you stayed for a couple of days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. Actually, Mary, John, Steve, and I would go out. The four of us would go out.

[Assistant] And it would always be the four of you?

[User] It would always be the four of us. And here's what here's what the deal was. We essentially had to pack up everything to sustain life during those three or four days because we were usually given the local school in which to live. Or some abandoned building somewhere in the community. So we would bring everything. We would bring food. We would bring we would bring our sleeping bags. We would bring maybe inflatable mattresses to to put on the floor. But we essentially moved our household out there and we lived in that community for the time we were there.

[Assistant] Can you describe one of the early visits to a community where you stayed for a couple of days?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] From your point of view, right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would always be the four of us. And here's what here's what the deal was. We essentially had to pack up everything to sustain life during those three or four days because we were usually given the local school in which to live. Or some abandoned building somewhere in the community. So we would bring everything. We would bring food. We would bring we would bring our sleeping bags. We would bring maybe inflatable mattresses to to put on the floor. But we essentially moved our household out there and we lived in that community for the time we were there.

[Assistant] Can you describe one of the early visits to a community where you stayed for a couple of days?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] From your point of view, right.

[User] I mean, we would we would go out there and the first time it happened, I guess it was a little it was a little challenging because we unloaded our stuff from the from Clemente's truck and we moved in to the to the schoolhouse or whatever the abandoned building was.

[Assistant] You remember what village it was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] From your point of view, right.

[User] I mean, we would we would go out there and the first time it happened, I guess it was a little it was a little challenging because we unloaded our stuff from the from Clemente's truck and we moved in to the to the schoolhouse or whatever the abandoned building was.

[Assistant] You remember what village it was?

[User] Oh, I really do not. I'm sorry. I just do not think and and it would then say to us, hey, I'll be back here on Sunday by 12:00 noon or so and I'll pick you up. And there we were. And that's what we had no means of communication. There was nothing. We are really on our own. We had our Peace Corps medical kits. Of course, they were all assigned, but we were nowhere. There were there were no telephones, no communication whatsoever. So we would get ourselves settled in the village level. Worker would often come over and just see that we were OK. One of the things one of the big lessons of Peace Corps for all of us was this. You've got to have somewhere a decent supply of water. So that was really the only question that we would have when we arrived. And I will tell you that the quality of water very dramatically up on the Altiplano and most of the time when we traveled the water was really pretty bad. And but, hey, we made do. We had iodine tablets and our plastic bottles. We did that. We would boil some water for making tea or coffee, the usual things, and then we would arrange with the village level work where we were going to be doing the little presentations. We had a motorcycle battery that we always traveled with that powered a little 35 millimeter slide projector and we did a manual slide show.

[Assistant] Tell me what kind of presentations you were making.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, we would we would go out there and the first time it happened, I guess it was a little it was a little challenging because we unloaded our stuff from the from Clemente's truck and we moved in to the to the schoolhouse or whatever the abandoned building was.

[Assistant] You remember what village it was?

[User] Oh, I really do not. I'm sorry. I just do not think and and it would then say to us, hey, I'll be back here on Sunday by 12:00 noon or so and I'll pick you up. And there we were. And that's what we had no means of communication. There was nothing. We are really on our own. We had our Peace Corps medical kits. Of course, they were all assigned, but we were nowhere. There were there were no telephones, no communication whatsoever. So we would get ourselves settled in the village level. Worker would often come over and just see that we were OK. One of the things one of the big lessons of Peace Corps for all of us was this. You've got to have somewhere a decent supply of water. So that was really the only question that we would have when we arrived. And I will tell you that the quality of water very dramatically up on the Altiplano and most of the time when we traveled the water was really pretty bad. And but, hey, we made do. We had iodine tablets and our plastic bottles. We did that. We would boil some water for making tea or coffee, the usual things, and then we would arrange with the village level work where we were going to be doing the little presentations. We had a motorcycle battery that we always traveled with that powered a little 35 millimeter slide projector and we did a manual slide show.

[Assistant] Tell me what kind of presentations you were making.

[User] We were doing presentations on how communities would put together a sheet dip, for example, or an alpaca dip.

[Assistant] How would you know, say to make a presentation on sheep dip? How did you know that there was a need in the community?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were doing presentations on how communities would put together a sheet dip, for example, or an alpaca dip.

[Assistant] How would you know, say to make a presentation on sheep dip? How did you know that there was a need in the community?

[User] Here's the way we did. We essentially had a kind of a set format. And what it what we were doing with these courses, remember, was trying to introduce the people to the National Community Development Program in Bolivia because it was essentially new to to the people that we were visiting. So what we were doing was trying to excite some interest in the community by indicating the kinds of projects that the community would begin if they so chose. So in effect, what we were doing was almost presenting a menu of some possibilities that the community could do while also doing things. John, Steve, for example, Steve Jefferies, our farm boy from East Tennessee, would be the one who would talk about the use of fertilizers and would have some slides on showing results in how the crops changed and so on. And comparative examples.

[Assistant] There was all this going on in Aymara?

[User] This is going on in a combination, but I would have to say it was mostly Spanish and there were times in a lot of it had to depend on the audience. The audience would be fluent in Spanish in some communities, and so we and others and oftentimes the community would like to speak Spanish because it helped them in other areas within their life in the country. So they weren't concerned about that. But in communities excuse me, where my motto was really the norm, what we would do is we would do Spanish and then the village level worker would very often do a translation into Aymara.

[Assistant] Now it was the village level worker who got the crowd together.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Here's the way we did. We essentially had a kind of a set format. And what it what we were doing with these courses, remember, was trying to introduce the people to the National Community Development Program in Bolivia because it was essentially new to to the people that we were visiting. So what we were doing was trying to excite some interest in the community by indicating the kinds of projects that the community would begin if they so chose. So in effect, what we were doing was almost presenting a menu of some possibilities that the community could do while also doing things. John, Steve, for example, Steve Jefferies, our farm boy from East Tennessee, would be the one who would talk about the use of fertilizers and would have some slides on showing results in how the crops changed and so on. And comparative examples.

[Assistant] There was all this going on in Aymara?

[User] This is going on in a combination, but I would have to say it was mostly Spanish and there were times in a lot of it had to depend on the audience. The audience would be fluent in Spanish in some communities, and so we and others and oftentimes the community would like to speak Spanish because it helped them in other areas within their life in the country. So they weren't concerned about that. But in communities excuse me, where my motto was really the norm, what we would do is we would do Spanish and then the village level worker would very often do a translation into Aymara.

[Assistant] Now it was the village level worker who got the crowd together.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] What did he say to people to identify the four of you? Who do people think you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is going on in a combination, but I would have to say it was mostly Spanish and there were times in a lot of it had to depend on the audience. The audience would be fluent in Spanish in some communities, and so we and others and oftentimes the community would like to speak Spanish because it helped them in other areas within their life in the country. So they weren't concerned about that. But in communities excuse me, where my motto was really the norm, what we would do is we would do Spanish and then the village level worker would very often do a translation into Aymara.

[Assistant] Now it was the village level worker who got the crowd together.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] What did he say to people to identify the four of you? Who do people think you were?

[User] People all knew that we were members of the Peace Corps. We were Voluntarios del Cuerpo de Paz. That's what we were introduced and we were introduced as Peace Corps volunteers working with the National Community Development Program. It's not as if they dressed us up as being Bolivians who were working with the community. No, we were clearly we were from the United States and we were.

[Assistant] But then in some ways it almost seems like your appearance in the presentations it's holding up, you know, the stick and the carrot that if people agreed with you, then money might come from the government.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] What did he say to people to identify the four of you? Who do people think you were?

[User] People all knew that we were members of the Peace Corps. We were Voluntarios del Cuerpo de Paz. That's what we were introduced and we were introduced as Peace Corps volunteers working with the National Community Development Program. It's not as if they dressed us up as being Bolivians who were working with the community. No, we were clearly we were from the United States and we were.

[Assistant] But then in some ways it almost seems like your appearance in the presentations it's holding up, you know, the stick and the carrot that if people agreed with you, then money might come from the government.

[User] Well, first of all, as you were pointing out earlier, so you do a slide presentation on sheep dip. What if they didn't want a sheep dip? If they didn't want a sheep dip, that they wouldn't build the sheep dip. But again, the Peace Corps turned back at that time was really identifying the felt needs of the community. And really, it was part of that was the village level workers’ task, to identify what do we want to organize around? What is it? Is it that we've got to put a new roof on the school? Is it that we want to build a sheep dip?

[Assistant] But who's doing the needs assessment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] People all knew that we were members of the Peace Corps. We were Voluntarios del Cuerpo de Paz. That's what we were introduced and we were introduced as Peace Corps volunteers working with the National Community Development Program. It's not as if they dressed us up as being Bolivians who were working with the community. No, we were clearly we were from the United States and we were.

[Assistant] But then in some ways it almost seems like your appearance in the presentations it's holding up, you know, the stick and the carrot that if people agreed with you, then money might come from the government.

[User] Well, first of all, as you were pointing out earlier, so you do a slide presentation on sheep dip. What if they didn't want a sheep dip? If they didn't want a sheep dip, that they wouldn't build the sheep dip. But again, the Peace Corps turned back at that time was really identifying the felt needs of the community. And really, it was part of that was the village level workers’ task, to identify what do we want to organize around? What is it? Is it that we've got to put a new roof on the school? Is it that we want to build a sheep dip?

[Assistant] But who's doing the needs assessment?

[User] Well, that's being done apart from us. That's really being done with the village of a worker and the and the community. What we are doing is essentially saying to the community, these are some of the things that can be done with the with the program.

[Assistant] So, I mean, and how many villages in the course of the first six months that you visit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, first of all, as you were pointing out earlier, so you do a slide presentation on sheep dip. What if they didn't want a sheep dip? If they didn't want a sheep dip, that they wouldn't build the sheep dip. But again, the Peace Corps turned back at that time was really identifying the felt needs of the community. And really, it was part of that was the village level workers’ task, to identify what do we want to organize around? What is it? Is it that we've got to put a new roof on the school? Is it that we want to build a sheep dip?

[Assistant] But who's doing the needs assessment?

[User] Well, that's being done apart from us. That's really being done with the village of a worker and the and the community. What we are doing is essentially saying to the community, these are some of the things that can be done with the with the program.

[Assistant] So, I mean, and how many villages in the course of the first six months that you visit?

[User] I would say that within the first six months, we probably did. I bet we probably did, we probably did 12, 13, something like that. I mean, we were on the road a lot.

[Assistant] And I would think your reception would vary based on the competence or the zealousness of the village level worker.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that's being done apart from us. That's really being done with the village of a worker and the and the community. What we are doing is essentially saying to the community, these are some of the things that can be done with the with the program.

[Assistant] So, I mean, and how many villages in the course of the first six months that you visit?

[User] I would say that within the first six months, we probably did. I bet we probably did, we probably did 12, 13, something like that. I mean, we were on the road a lot.

[Assistant] And I would think your reception would vary based on the competence or the zealousness of the village level worker.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Ok, let's let's set that aside for a moment to come back to where you're living. You must have had some free time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say that within the first six months, we probably did. I bet we probably did, we probably did 12, 13, something like that. I mean, we were on the road a lot.

[Assistant] And I would think your reception would vary based on the competence or the zealousness of the village level worker.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Ok, let's let's set that aside for a moment to come back to where you're living. You must have had some free time.

[User] Oh, yes, yes, absolutely was.

[Assistant] What did you do with your free time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Ok, let's let's set that aside for a moment to come back to where you're living. You must have had some free time.

[User] Oh, yes, yes, absolutely was.

[Assistant] What did you do with your free time?

[User] Free time? A couple of things done. Mary tried to start a garden in in the soil. Now, mind you, this is this is very high in altitude. It is very cold at night. And among the few things that grow well on the Altiplano are tubers. They have to be in the ground. Right, because that's the only way they're going to survive. So it's it's a kind of potato crop. There are so many varieties of potato. It's potato in Bolivia is a little bit like snow to the Eskimo because, you know, what do they say? There’s like 75 different words to describe different kinds of snow. And will be about 75 different kinds of potatoes. They went from almost black, purple to pure white and red and yellows and everything in between. So that was that was one of the things. Another thing we did was we actually I mentioned there were three other volunteers in the same province. That we were we would we would travel back and forth by bicycle. And it was it would be a several mile trip. But one of the volunteers was an architect, Harvard trained architect, in fact. And he came down and spent a couple of days with us. And what we did was we actually improved our living situation somewhat. He actually, he liked Mary very much. And he he set up a water tank where Mary actually had a sink with a spigot of water inside because we put a water tank up close to the roof and on. And he had the I mean, it was just a simple gravity system. We have to carry buckets up there who we remember his name. His name was Ray Warburton. And we see Ray to this very day, to 2009.

[Assistant] As the three plus one of you were living. Did Mary inevitably become the cook?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. The deal was this with our Peace Corps group, every month we got to come in to La Paz. We picked up our pay and we got to shop. Because the Altiplano was really thin, with respect to food supplies. So we would we would go into La Paz, we'd stop at the Peace Corps office. We pick up our pay. We would we would maybe spend two days in La Paz each month. And if we needed to do anything with the Peace Corps, we pick up mail also. That was the only way we got any mail.

[Assistant] But no formal training or anything?

[User] No no formal training. We had, I think one in-country training program, took place down in Cochabamba. I think maybe after our first year I could it was a year in. We got booster shots for all of our different things. And that was the only.

[Assistant] Mid-service?

[User] Mid-service, right. Something like that. But we would be into La Paz every month. And we are, as I say, what we learned to do in the marketplace is, we would buy a single integral and by integral, I mean, non-sliced hunk of beef, let's say, because that was you would just let it dry on the outside, which acted as kind of a preservative, and we would carry that out. We had a little darkroom where we could just let it sit on a piece of wood and it would dry. But, you know, eventually, by the time the end of the month would come, we were we were our food supply was was usually pretty thin because we only had enough canned goods, maybe to last a month and we'd be recycling back into the into the city.

[Assistant] Generally speaking, how was your health during the first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, our our real friendship was with Clemente Alcon, who was the province chief of the community development program. I mean, we spent a good deal of time with him and with his older son, Tocio. And Tocio at that point was probably maybe nine years old or something like that. And Clemente's first wife, that is Tocio’s mother, had died. She became ill and died. Clemente remarried and had two sons by his second wife. So it was a blended family and they lived just about two or three doors down from us. And he was really our principal source of information about the community development program, how we were scheduling our trips and so on. I mean, it was really fun.

[Assistant] But on a weekend, did you go out to a nightclub, a bar?

[User] There were no bars. There were no nightclubs. There was nothing. I mean, a population of this town, just to put it into perspective, Bob, was. You know, if there were if there were 50 people and you were talking a lot, but when festival time would come apart, that while they would come out of the woodwork from everywhere, they would travel from other parts of the country to come back to the Altiplano. But many people, you know, the Altiplano was abandoned in many ways because farmers especially wanted to go to the Yungas where the rain was more fertile, the climate was much more hospitable, and they just wanted to get away from the Altiplano because prospects there were not very, very good.

[Assistant] So it was a population that was diminishing?

[User] Oh, most definitely. Most definitely.

[Assistant] And yet you were still doing the community development up there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were no bars. There were no nightclubs. There was nothing. I mean, a population of this town, just to put it into perspective, Bob, was. You know, if there were if there were 50 people and you were talking a lot, but when festival time would come apart, that while they would come out of the woodwork from everywhere, they would travel from other parts of the country to come back to the Altiplano. But many people, you know, the Altiplano was abandoned in many ways because farmers especially wanted to go to the Yungas where the rain was more fertile, the climate was much more hospitable, and they just wanted to get away from the Altiplano because prospects there were not very, very good.

[Assistant] So it was a population that was diminishing?

[User] Oh, most definitely. Most definitely.

[Assistant] And yet you were still doing the community development up there?

[User] Yes. Yes. Actually, it was it still wanted to be done because, look, there were still going to be shepherds who were going to raise alpaca and sheep. That was a that was a big food source in Bolivia. So it wasn't important. It was an important aspect, although not a huge aspect to the economy. It was still important

[Assistant] As you come to the end of the first year. Was there any break between first and second year? Did you take vacation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, most definitely. Most definitely.

[Assistant] And yet you were still doing the community development up there?

[User] Yes. Yes. Actually, it was it still wanted to be done because, look, there were still going to be shepherds who were going to raise alpaca and sheep. That was a that was a big food source in Bolivia. So it wasn't important. It was an important aspect, although not a huge aspect to the economy. It was still important

[Assistant] As you come to the end of the first year. Was there any break between first and second year? Did you take vacation?

[User] You know, we did. We went to.

[Assistant] You and Mary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Actually, it was it still wanted to be done because, look, there were still going to be shepherds who were going to raise alpaca and sheep. That was a that was a big food source in Bolivia. So it wasn't important. It was an important aspect, although not a huge aspect to the economy. It was still important

[Assistant] As you come to the end of the first year. Was there any break between first and second year? Did you take vacation?

[User] You know, we did. We went to.

[Assistant] You and Mary?

[User] No, we actually we would go as a group. We traveled. We were really very, very close. And we were very close with these with the other volunteers. But we traveled all the way down to the Lake District in Chile. We went to Santiago, of course, and then we went to Santiago south to Puerto Montt, right on the coast of Chile. And then we went up into the lake region, crossing into Argentina. And then we took one of the longest bus rides we ever took. And that is from almost southern Argentina all the way up to Buenos Aires. I don't know how many hours it was. But when we arrived in Buenos Aires, you couldn't see our ankles. We were just swollen as could be.

[Assistant] Yeah. And there was the mid-year conference.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, we did. We went to.

[Assistant] You and Mary?

[User] No, we actually we would go as a group. We traveled. We were really very, very close. And we were very close with these with the other volunteers. But we traveled all the way down to the Lake District in Chile. We went to Santiago, of course, and then we went to Santiago south to Puerto Montt, right on the coast of Chile. And then we went up into the lake region, crossing into Argentina. And then we took one of the longest bus rides we ever took. And that is from almost southern Argentina all the way up to Buenos Aires. I don't know how many hours it was. But when we arrived in Buenos Aires, you couldn't see our ankles. We were just swollen as could be.

[Assistant] Yeah. And there was the mid-year conference.

[User] Mid-year conference, yes. In Cochabamba.

[Assistant] Any startling anything come out of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we actually we would go as a group. We traveled. We were really very, very close. And we were very close with these with the other volunteers. But we traveled all the way down to the Lake District in Chile. We went to Santiago, of course, and then we went to Santiago south to Puerto Montt, right on the coast of Chile. And then we went up into the lake region, crossing into Argentina. And then we took one of the longest bus rides we ever took. And that is from almost southern Argentina all the way up to Buenos Aires. I don't know how many hours it was. But when we arrived in Buenos Aires, you couldn't see our ankles. We were just swollen as could be.

[Assistant] Yeah. And there was the mid-year conference.

[User] Mid-year conference, yes. In Cochabamba.

[Assistant] Any startling anything come out of that?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] Were other people in the group having tended to have the same experience as you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mid-year conference, yes. In Cochabamba.

[Assistant] Any startling anything come out of that?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant] Were other people in the group having tended to have the same experience as you?

[User] You know, they were although some of them had some health problems had developed. That young man Corey I told you about before, the handsome Scandinavian. I think, Corey, I think the rule was that if you if you had a double attack of hepatitis, I think you were excused at that point because your system was so compromised. I think Corey may have come down with a second bout of hepatitis, but he was he was really he was unfortunate in that. But, you know, for the most part, we stayed healthy.

[Assistant] We are OK now when you're going into your second year, you know, and at that point you can see that your tour is going to come. And one of the things I wondered whether you had any measure by which you could have some sense of achievement or closure. I mean, you've just described the process going out to the villages, making the presentations. But at some point you want to build a latrine or you want to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, they were although some of them had some health problems had developed. That young man Corey I told you about before, the handsome Scandinavian. I think, Corey, I think the rule was that if you if you had a double attack of hepatitis, I think you were excused at that point because your system was so compromised. I think Corey may have come down with a second bout of hepatitis, but he was he was really he was unfortunate in that. But, you know, for the most part, we stayed healthy.

[Assistant] We are OK now when you're going into your second year, you know, and at that point you can see that your tour is going to come. And one of the things I wondered whether you had any measure by which you could have some sense of achievement or closure. I mean, you've just described the process going out to the villages, making the presentations. But at some point you want to build a latrine or you want to.

[User] Exactly. But you know what Bob? That's the interesting thing about being the first in. We were told that we were really not going to see and we were not expecting to see any of quote our pet projects go anywhere. Compared to Ray Warburton, who was up in a community north of us, and his community, they got together and they built a school.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know, but but Ray was not on the road as we were, right? Because we were we were essentially the shills. You know, we were the ones who passed out the leaflets in a way.

[Assistant] So your second year was pretty much the same pattern?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. But you know what Bob? That's the interesting thing about being the first in. We were told that we were really not going to see and we were not expecting to see any of quote our pet projects go anywhere. Compared to Ray Warburton, who was up in a community north of us, and his community, they got together and they built a school.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know, but but Ray was not on the road as we were, right? Because we were we were essentially the shills. You know, we were the ones who passed out the leaflets in a way.

[Assistant] So your second year was pretty much the same pattern?

[User] Doing the same thing, yes.

[Assistant] Was there any sense of frustration that, you know, well, I'm leaving and where's my monument?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, but but Ray was not on the road as we were, right? Because we were we were essentially the shills. You know, we were the ones who passed out the leaflets in a way.

[Assistant] So your second year was pretty much the same pattern?

[User] Doing the same thing, yes.

[Assistant] Was there any sense of frustration that, you know, well, I'm leaving and where's my monument?

[User] Well, you know, the Peace Corps was pretty clear in telling us you weren't leaving monuments. You were here to be able to plow the ground for your successors because the plan was that our successors were going to be those who were more skilled and more skilled in animal husbandry, more skilled in co-ops and so on to be able to do all of those things to deepen the work. That's where the monuments might have gone.

[Assistant] Was there any sense in trying to train the Bolivians to be doing what you were doing, not the village level work, but the kind of, you know, planting of seeds or whatever you want?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Doing the same thing, yes.

[Assistant] Was there any sense of frustration that, you know, well, I'm leaving and where's my monument?

[User] Well, you know, the Peace Corps was pretty clear in telling us you weren't leaving monuments. You were here to be able to plow the ground for your successors because the plan was that our successors were going to be those who were more skilled and more skilled in animal husbandry, more skilled in co-ops and so on to be able to do all of those things to deepen the work. That's where the monuments might have gone.

[Assistant] Was there any sense in trying to train the Bolivians to be doing what you were doing, not the village level work, but the kind of, you know, planting of seeds or whatever you want?

[User] Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And and that was that was some of the that was some of the work the village level workers to working with. They were always looking for rising stars in the community, young men or young women who were going to.

[Assistant] But you didn't specifically have someone, a Bolivian, who might accompany the four of you just to see what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, there there was a plan to replace us. Whether that replacement was going to be in this community or not was an open question. That we didn't know.

[Assistant] Were their political problems during the two years?

[User] The only political problem was this. And it was it was really very, very interesting. Che Guevara. Who was the leader of the revolution in Cuba with Fidel, Che Guevara was discovered in the lowlands of Bolivia, and that, of course, set up the alarms because the thought was that Che was going down because he got bored with the administration of the revolution in Cuba. It was all because that was ‘59, wasn't it? I think ’59, and that Che wanted some excitement in his life and wanted to be working. And he had he had been traced into Argentina and into Bolivia. And ultimately he was killed by Bolivian rangers in Bolivia. And, you know, there are so many different interpretations of that of that story, because Che was a medical doctor himself, who was actually trained as a medical doctor. And he had a very bad case of asthma, apparently. And some say that it was almost a kind of a farewell or suicide mission for him, that he would not have gone to these lowlands, which would so compromise his asthmatic condition. In any event, the Bolivian rangers were almost heroes at that point. But the, and the government really paraded, I think they removed his thumbs, if I'm not mistaken, and they were, you know, in the newspaper.

[Assistant] And so what impact did it have on, you know, really?

[User] Not really. There was there was not much other than there was there was some heightened military activity because no one really knew where he was in the country. But not much goes on on the Altiplano.

[Assistant] And usually at the end of the two years, there's a termination conference where the group gets together and discusses their experience. You know, not every place does it occur.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. There was there was not much other than there was there was some heightened military activity because no one really knew where he was in the country. But not much goes on on the Altiplano.

[Assistant] And usually at the end of the two years, there's a termination conference where the group gets together and discusses their experience. You know, not every place does it occur.

[User] I'll tell you what, Bob, I. I was excused about three weeks early to begin a summer program at that Wharton School. And I, I missed it. Mary stayed on. And she would have been at the termination conference, I believe there was one, but I was excused early to be able to go up and try to start this program at Wharton. And as it turned out, I switched horses because of the law school thing.

[Assistant] Well, let's follow your story. Do you remember your feeling as you were leaving the country? I mean, you had joined the Peace Corps. You had been trained. You spent the two years sense of achievements and failures. And so was it worth doing?

[User]
The sense on leaving was this. That we had learned, I think all of us, we had learned much more than we had taught. We had gotten much more than we had given and that it was. It was a major, major life experience, and I think when I came back to the States, I felt I can do almost anything. That we wanted to, you know, so despite the fact and moreover, the other thing is that I didn't mention is Clemente's son, Tocio, left Bolivia with my brother halfway through and he was living with my family. So when I got back home to Bolivia or, excuse me, back home to Chicago, yeah, that was the Bolivian face living with my parents. So your brother had visited you during service?

Yes.

[Assistant] What was that like? Was he a world traveler?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll tell you what, Bob, I. I was excused about three weeks early to begin a summer program at that Wharton School. And I, I missed it. Mary stayed on. And she would have been at the termination conference, I believe there was one, but I was excused early to be able to go up and try to start this program at Wharton. And as it turned out, I switched horses because of the law school thing.

[Assistant] Well, let's follow your story. Do you remember your feeling as you were leaving the country? I mean, you had joined the Peace Corps. You had been trained. You spent the two years sense of achievements and failures. And so was it worth doing?

[User]
The sense on leaving was this. That we had learned, I think all of us, we had learned much more than we had taught. We had gotten much more than we had given and that it was. It was a major, major life experience, and I think when I came back to the States, I felt I can do almost anything. That we wanted to, you know, so despite the fact and moreover, the other thing is that I didn't mention is Clemente's son, Tocio, left Bolivia with my brother halfway through and he was living with my family. So when I got back home to Bolivia or, excuse me, back home to Chicago, yeah, that was the Bolivian face living with my parents. So your brother had visited you during service?

Yes.

[Assistant] What was that like? Was he a world traveler?

[User] No, no. Tom was definitely not a world traveler. He was built for comfort, not for speed.

[Assistant] And he is your older brother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
The sense on leaving was this. That we had learned, I think all of us, we had learned much more than we had taught. We had gotten much more than we had given and that it was. It was a major, major life experience, and I think when I came back to the States, I felt I can do almost anything. That we wanted to, you know, so despite the fact and moreover, the other thing is that I didn't mention is Clemente's son, Tocio, left Bolivia with my brother halfway through and he was living with my family. So when I got back home to Bolivia or, excuse me, back home to Chicago, yeah, that was the Bolivian face living with my parents. So your brother had visited you during service?

Yes.

[Assistant] What was that like? Was he a world traveler?

[User] No, no. Tom was definitely not a world traveler. He was built for comfort, not for speed.

[Assistant] And he is your older brother?

[User] No, he's a younger brother, six years younger than I. He was in undergraduate's. No, no. Let's see. Where was he? He may have been an undergraduate school at Holy Cross at that time out in Worcester, Massachusetts, but he came down because a complicated story. We had worked things out so that Clemente wanted Tocio to get an education in the United States. My parents were willing to do it and arrangements. We made all the arrangements for Tocio to go back up. And when Tom came down, he was going to be the one who was going to accompany Tocio back to the States. And he did. Yeah, he traveled through immigration with him.

[Assistant] Howl old was Tocio then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. Tom was definitely not a world traveler. He was built for comfort, not for speed.

[Assistant] And he is your older brother?

[User] No, he's a younger brother, six years younger than I. He was in undergraduate's. No, no. Let's see. Where was he? He may have been an undergraduate school at Holy Cross at that time out in Worcester, Massachusetts, but he came down because a complicated story. We had worked things out so that Clemente wanted Tocio to get an education in the United States. My parents were willing to do it and arrangements. We made all the arrangements for Tocio to go back up. And when Tom came down, he was going to be the one who was going to accompany Tocio back to the States. And he did. Yeah, he traveled through immigration with him.

[Assistant] Howl old was Tocio then?

[User] Toshio was probably about, I'm going to say about ten. I think he was maybe around nine, although believe it or not, I don't know that there is even a birth certificate for Tocio. And the custom in Bolivia is that you do not count a child as a member of the family until the child achieves his fifth birthday because infant mortality is so great.

[Assistant] So Tocio came up not to go to college, but school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he's a younger brother, six years younger than I. He was in undergraduate's. No, no. Let's see. Where was he? He may have been an undergraduate school at Holy Cross at that time out in Worcester, Massachusetts, but he came down because a complicated story. We had worked things out so that Clemente wanted Tocio to get an education in the United States. My parents were willing to do it and arrangements. We made all the arrangements for Tocio to go back up. And when Tom came down, he was going to be the one who was going to accompany Tocio back to the States. And he did. Yeah, he traveled through immigration with him.

[Assistant] Howl old was Tocio then?

[User] Toshio was probably about, I'm going to say about ten. I think he was maybe around nine, although believe it or not, I don't know that there is even a birth certificate for Tocio. And the custom in Bolivia is that you do not count a child as a member of the family until the child achieves his fifth birthday because infant mortality is so great.

[Assistant] So Tocio came up not to go to college, but school?

[User] No, not to go to college. He went to grammar school and, you know, he was speaking no English at all. When he arrived, he and my parents worked out of a dictionary. He was enrolled in the local public school. It was a, you know, a very positive experience for him. I think he he managed to do very well. He did well in his studies. He he mastered the language.

[Assistant] Are you still in touch with him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Toshio was probably about, I'm going to say about ten. I think he was maybe around nine, although believe it or not, I don't know that there is even a birth certificate for Tocio. And the custom in Bolivia is that you do not count a child as a member of the family until the child achieves his fifth birthday because infant mortality is so great.

[Assistant] So Tocio came up not to go to college, but school?

[User] No, not to go to college. He went to grammar school and, you know, he was speaking no English at all. When he arrived, he and my parents worked out of a dictionary. He was enrolled in the local public school. It was a, you know, a very positive experience for him. I think he he managed to do very well. He did well in his studies. He he mastered the language.

[Assistant] Are you still in touch with him?

[User] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. He lives in Oregon. In fact, when my mother died about five years ago, she was in a nursing home. But before that time, she she was living in a home thgat that they owned and she had a room with them. So they were they were, in essence, taking care of her. That is Tocio and his wife, who is a Filipino woman who was a nurse and their adopted daughter from the Philippines.

[Assistant] So they became family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not to go to college. He went to grammar school and, you know, he was speaking no English at all. When he arrived, he and my parents worked out of a dictionary. He was enrolled in the local public school. It was a, you know, a very positive experience for him. I think he he managed to do very well. He did well in his studies. He he mastered the language.

[Assistant] Are you still in touch with him?

[User] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. He lives in Oregon. In fact, when my mother died about five years ago, she was in a nursing home. But before that time, she she was living in a home thgat that they owned and she had a room with them. So they were they were, in essence, taking care of her. That is Tocio and his wife, who is a Filipino woman who was a nurse and their adopted daughter from the Philippines.

[Assistant] So they became family.

[User] Absolutely. They became family. Yes, indeed.

[Assistant] So, again, your sense of what two years meant in terms of, let's say in terms of Bolivarian development and then in terms of, you know, what did you bring back to the U.S.?