[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. There’s empty lots with just the foundation with it not—either not chosen to sell the property or rebuild, or no one chose to buy it and think about rebuilding.

[Assistant] Did that—did the timing of that hurricane have a—work into advantage as far as your training scheduling [was concerned]? Or did it come at a bad time for you?

[User] No, it actually had no effect on—

[Assistant] You were—

[User] —what I had to do within the—my involvement in 11 and subsequently into the 13 training.

[Assistant] It occurred after 11 was really beyond you and then before you’d really picked up the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it actually had no effect on—

[Assistant] You were—

[User] —what I had to do within the—my involvement in 11 and subsequently into the 13 training.

[Assistant] It occurred after 11 was really beyond you and then before you’d really picked up the—

[User] Right. That’s correct.

[Assistant] —the load on 13. You mentioned that your assignment had originally been to 14. That moved back to 13 when Al Shepard got back into the lineup after resolving his medical problem. And as I remember that story, the managers in Washington were concerned that Shepard would not be ready to fly 13 but Lovell’s crew (you and Mattingly along with Jim Lovell) would be. And you were asked if you would take that earlier assignment and let Shepard train for the later one. Is that essentially a correct summation of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —what I had to do within the—my involvement in 11 and subsequently into the 13 training.

[Assistant] It occurred after 11 was really beyond you and then before you’d really picked up the—

[User] Right. That’s correct.

[Assistant] —the load on 13. You mentioned that your assignment had originally been to 14. That moved back to 13 when Al Shepard got back into the lineup after resolving his medical problem. And as I remember that story, the managers in Washington were concerned that Shepard would not be ready to fly 13 but Lovell’s crew (you and Mattingly along with Jim Lovell) would be. And you were asked if you would take that earlier assignment and let Shepard train for the later one. Is that essentially a correct summation of it?

[User] Pretty much, except the—what had changed after the—Apollo 10 backup had lost two members. So really the new assignments were Al, as the commander, and Stu Roosa, [who] had never been through a training cycle, was also assigned to that then Apollo 13 crew (would have been the Apollo 13 crew). So they had all—Ed Mitchell was the only one who had been through a training cycle. So, I—that wasn’t discussed with me.\n\n It actually, I guess, was …[discussed with] Jim. I think Jim, just as I and Ken Mattingly felt at the time, the quicker you get to fly the better. So there was absolutely nothing wrong, in our minds, with having made that change. We were happy to get Apollo 13. I’m not superstitious, incidentally, so that part didn’t bother me either.

[Assistant] What did that do to your training cycle? Those flights at that time were going on 6-month centers. Did that leave you adequate time to get ready for 13?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well it—half of the effort we were going to do at the Moon was very similar to what had been done in both 11 and 12. And that was to lay out a set of scientific experiments involved in the ALSEP [Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package] packages.

[Assistant] That’s the lunar surface—

[User] Lunar surface—

[Assistant] experiment package?

[User] —right. The second part, which was to be probably more involved in at least a hope of being better field geologists to do a better sampling—was, the EVA [Extra-Vehicular Activity], the second EVA. And, in our case, was to explore the countryside, up a slope toward a feature called Cone Crater in the Fra Mauro region of the Moon. And by strategically sampling up toward the crater, you would be sampling material that at the out—that outside ray of the crater would be the deepest material, where the crater normally forms in the Moon—or on Earth for that matter. If it’s due to an impact facet, it inverts—it’s an inverted flap; so if you’re sampling up a ray, the farther-out stuff is the deepest stuff within the crater. And as you get up near the edge of the crater, you’re sampling literally at the surface.

[Assistant] And it really wasn’t known at that point (was it?) whether that crater was caused by impact? Or was it known to be an impact crater? Or was it still thought it might be a volcanic feature?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lunar surface—

[Assistant] experiment package?

[User] —right. The second part, which was to be probably more involved in at least a hope of being better field geologists to do a better sampling—was, the EVA [Extra-Vehicular Activity], the second EVA. And, in our case, was to explore the countryside, up a slope toward a feature called Cone Crater in the Fra Mauro region of the Moon. And by strategically sampling up toward the crater, you would be sampling material that at the out—that outside ray of the crater would be the deepest material, where the crater normally forms in the Moon—or on Earth for that matter. If it’s due to an impact facet, it inverts—it’s an inverted flap; so if you’re sampling up a ray, the farther-out stuff is the deepest stuff within the crater. And as you get up near the edge of the crater, you’re sampling literally at the surface.

[Assistant] And it really wasn’t known at that point (was it?) whether that crater was caused by impact? Or was it known to be an impact crater? Or was it still thought it might be a volcanic feature?

[User] No. It was—I think it was pretty much ascertained that it was an impact crater. The whole area was hypothesized as the—some of the erupted material that had come out of the Imbrium Basin. That’s the—if you can envision a face in the Moon, that’s the left eye in the Moon. And so when that big meteorite hit impacted there, it caused splash material (molten rock); and part of that splash formed the Fra Mauro hills, which was south of that eye in the Moon.

[Assistant] And of course the early missions, 11 and 12, both had to land in relatively smooth areas because the targeting was not that precise. By the later missions, you were getting more confident in the landing procedures and willing to go into areas that might have some of the highlands or at least crustal materials in about them as opposed to the basalts.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there was a brief episode that from where I was on the right side, at least, certainly you felt the vibrations… for a few seconds, like the feel of maybe a holding a jackhammer kind of an effect. And it went away. Then over on the left side, of course, Jim and Jack could see the center engine light come on that it had shut down and reported it. My main concern then was not, “Could we reach Earth orbit?” But, “Would we have enough fuel left to still commit to the lunar mission?” And that—

[Assistant] Because—

[User] —I thought we’d probably end up in Earth orbit, flying an alternate mission, which we did have in our plan.

[Assistant] Is that because with that engine shut down, you were going to have to tap into some of the third-stage propellant to make a safe orbit?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] And that wouldn’t leave you enough then to make the translunar —


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —I thought we’d probably end up in Earth orbit, flying an alternate mission, which we did have in our plan.

[Assistant] Is that because with that engine shut down, you were going to have to tap into some of the third-stage propellant to make a safe orbit?

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] And that wouldn’t leave you enough then to make the translunar —

[User] Make the commit to leave Earth orbit for the Moon.

[Assistant] I guess you did have to get into that propellant a little bit to make orbit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] And that wouldn’t leave you enough then to make the translunar —

[User] Make the commit to leave Earth orbit for the Moon.

[Assistant] I guess you did have to get into that propellant a little bit to make orbit.

[User] Yes, we did. We had the longest insertion time of the program.

[Assistant] Yeah. But I think, as I recall, it was (what?) normally about 8 or 9 minutes to—for a Saturn V to put you in Earth orbit—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Make the commit to leave Earth orbit for the Moon.

[Assistant] I guess you did have to get into that propellant a little bit to make orbit.

[User] Yes, we did. We had the longest insertion time of the program.

[Assistant] Yeah. But I think, as I recall, it was (what?) normally about 8 or 9 minutes to—for a Saturn V to put you in Earth orbit—

[User] I don’t remember the exact numbers, but I know it was the longest.

[Assistant] Yeah. But it—but the engine did give you a physical sensation before it shut down that something was not right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we did. We had the longest insertion time of the program.

[Assistant] Yeah. But I think, as I recall, it was (what?) normally about 8 or 9 minutes to—for a Saturn V to put you in Earth orbit—

[User] I don’t remember the exact numbers, but I know it was the longest.

[Assistant] Yeah. But it—but the engine did give you a physical sensation before it shut down that something was not right?

[User] Well, yes. It—what happened was, there was a[n] instability in the feed to the engine called—an effect called Pogo. And that varies the thrust level considerably; and that variance in thrust, you know, resulted in a chug, if you will… a vertical chug up the stack. That gave us this chatter, and, as I understand it, pegged out the accelerometers on that center engine, which is on a set of crossbeams. Later talking to Marshall people, they were happy it did its shutdown when it did, when it hit a low pressure point. Because much greater excursions in that g-level may have caused structural damage to that crossbeam effect and, of course, even more catastrophic effects.

[Assistant]
Yeah. [Recorder turned off.]

Fred, we were talking about your launch on Apollo 13 and the shutdown of that center engine on the second stage. So you did, as it turns out, have adequate propellant not only to make a safe orbit but to get you enroute to the Moon. And, as I recall then, the early parts of your flight were really very uneventful from that point up until the oxygen tank exploded when you were about two-thirds of the way to the Moon.\n\n Did you have any inclination when that first happened that you had that kind of a serious problem when the tank exploded? Or was it still—was it obviously a potential showstopper in your minds, or was this just something that, “Hey, what was that?” And go about finding out what kind of a problem you really had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh absolutely. Within probably the first minute to 2 minutes, I knew we had lost the mission.

[Assistant] As the crew’s lunar module expert, once it became apparent that you were going to have to use the lunar module as a lifeboat (a role that it really was not designed for), how confident were you that it could be used for that?

[User] Well I was confident it would power-up and provide the resources we needed for a time. What was not clear to me just instantly was that it—we could make it last as long as we had to make it last; namely, roughly 4 days. I did have a point—at—after we had completed the first—the activation and then the first maneuver using the landing engine to get us back on a course that would take us around the Moon—to do some back-of-the-envelope arithmetic on a—on a checklist (which I still have that page at home), that I calculated the consumables on a power-down I assumed. And I figured we would run out of—the critical element (for me at that point was water) that we would run out of about 5 hours before what was then the entry time in the plan that had been conceived.\n\n I felt safe with that because I also had data from LM-5 on Apollo 11, where we left that one in orbit. Before Neil and Buzz left it, they turned off the water valve, deliberately, as an engineering test. And the first major component in any system—one of the guidance and nav [navigation] components failed at 8 hours.

[Assistant] Well this was because, without water you can’t cool it and the temperature goes up and it shuts down.

[User] You can’t cool it and it never—right, and it would fail. And so, just based on that one data point, at least, I figured we had maybe enough margin to make it even in a case of running out of water 5 hours before entry interface.

[Assistant] So water ended up being the most critical component or consumable on the spacecraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can’t cool it and it never—right, and it would fail. And so, just based on that one data point, at least, I figured we had maybe enough margin to make it even in a case of running out of water 5 hours before entry interface.

[Assistant] So water ended up being the most critical component or consumable on the spacecraft?

[User] No. Actually the most critical consumable I didn’t consider. That was the lithium cartridges. It didn’t even occur to me that we had these cartridges. LiOH or lithium cartridges were used to scrub carbon dioxide out of the air, and I completely forgot about it. The only spares in the LM were down on the MESA, a thing you would have deployed on the lunar surface. And frankly, there wasn’t enough spares, as I recall, to have sufficed anyway for 4 days. So that was the commodity we had the shortest (quote) “supply of.” And the ground—the people on the ground subsequently worked out the way of implementing the use of the square, a different shape cartridge, from the command module, which there were an abundance of, to deploy in in the lunar module.

[Assistant] Did you ever reach the point where the buildup of carbon dioxide was becoming noticeable in the atmosphere in the lunar module?

[User] As I recall, we did break the red line and got a master alarm on. But I never felt physically any effects… at that level.

[Assistant] One of the things that I recall there was quite a bit of debate about (I don’t remember how long it went on) was whether or not to use all the available propulsion, turn the spacecraft around, and head it back to Earth as quickly as possible, or go on around the Moon, use the Moon’s gravity to send the spacecraft back. A little bit longer, but it didn’t require using the service module engine. Did you have any hope that that service module engine would’ve worked if it had been needed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s absolutely correct. I have to give my hats off to the crispness of response, as I said, in this (call it) “ad hoc” mode. To me the two biggest challenges and the times I felt the most pressure during the flight was, number one, the lunar module activation and the haste at which we had to do that. The second one was the power-up of the command and service module, the mother ship, which Jack Swigert and I executed. Because it was an—again, a very—well, a new, had to be invented, procedure by people on the ground that we had never done before.\n\n And anything of that nature, had we known we were going to do it before flight, we’d have practiced it dozens of times in a simulator. And here we could only read through it a few times, which we did, and sort of walk through the switches and circuit breakers as to the play of that power-up. But then [we] had to do it, again, in a fairly short timeline.

[Assistant] Now was this when you were getting ready to come back from the lunar module to the command module to reenter —

[User] Come back to it to prepare it for entry. Right.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that was the second time I felt a great deal of pressure. Because it—we were going to have one shot at it and it had to be right.

[Assistant] Of course it was a real tribute to that vehicle, that it withstood being powered down, frozen, inactive for all that period of time and then came back to life and did its mission, to get you back through the atmosphere.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Come back to it to prepare it for entry. Right.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that was the second time I felt a great deal of pressure. Because it—we were going to have one shot at it and it had to be right.

[Assistant] Of course it was a real tribute to that vehicle, that it withstood being powered down, frozen, inactive for all that period of time and then came back to life and did its mission, to get you back through the atmosphere.

[User] Absolutely. I was—you could say the case for both vehicles, the lunar module to the degree we took the power-down and the temperatures that… violated every redline specification on literally every system in that vehicle. And similarly so in the command and service module, which obviously had never planned to be shut down.

[Assistant] Were you aware at the time of the intense worldwide interest that had developed over your plight in getting back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was the second time I felt a great deal of pressure. Because it—we were going to have one shot at it and it had to be right.

[Assistant] Of course it was a real tribute to that vehicle, that it withstood being powered down, frozen, inactive for all that period of time and then came back to life and did its mission, to get you back through the atmosphere.

[User] Absolutely. I was—you could say the case for both vehicles, the lunar module to the degree we took the power-down and the temperatures that… violated every redline specification on literally every system in that vehicle. And similarly so in the command and service module, which obviously had never planned to be shut down.

[Assistant] Were you aware at the time of the intense worldwide interest that had developed over your plight in getting back?

[User] No. We were not. That was never discussed on the airways, you know, what (quote) “the reception” might be by people in the U.S. or around the world. In the back of my mind I had a concern that it might be taken negatively. That, you know, here we had failed. It was planned to be the third landing mission and we weren’t going to accomplish it, and I could envision the headlines of, you know: “NASA Wastes $100M” or something on this mission that failed.\n\n And it was the kind of thing that bothered me not from the standpoint of I felt I was the cause of the failure, but being a part of the team as a whole, you just didn’t want to be a part of, you know, a mission that failed. And then frankly I worried that it may affect the program in some way, or even halt the program, and I certainly wouldn’t want that on my record, that I was involved in something that, you know, caused that.

[Assistant] And of course the mission was a failure, but it was not perceived that way. It’s viewed today as one of NASA’s shining moments. Do you—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. That was to get aligned for the entry corridor.

[Assistant] But the guidance platform had been, as you pointed out, aligned early on. Was the concern that it would have, in that amount of time, drifted off? You needed to assure that it was still accurate before doing that course correction enroute back to Earth?

[User] That’s correct. Yeah that—well, if you look at it, obviously every one of the maneuvers were important and had to be reasonably accurate. Probably the two most paramount would have been the one that first got us on the right path to go around the Moon; and the second one, which reshaped the trajectory to get the 10 hours’ relief on the return. The others were coarser burns which, obviously, if they’d tracked a while and saw that it didn’t turn out right, we could have repeated those. They were very small maneuvers; tweaks, I guess is the terminology used. We could have executed several of those.

[Assistant] Of course one of the things that was significantly different about your entry into the Earth’s atmosphere from previous Apollo missions is that you still had the lunar module attached as you approached Earth and [you] had to get rid of it. Was there any concern that the lunar module and command module might collide as you were coming back into the atmosphere?

[User] No. I didn’t worry because that was again part of the plan that Mission Control had worked out. We set up an attitude and pressurized the tunnel—between the two vehicles. So when we separated the lunar module (and it was quite a jolt), it actually projected [the lunar module] away from us out to the side.\n\n So it dramatically changed its path, so as, again, to lessen that likelihood that we would have this collision.

[Assistant] But that is something that had to be taken into account. But you just felt it was properly planned for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s correct. Yeah that—well, if you look at it, obviously every one of the maneuvers were important and had to be reasonably accurate. Probably the two most paramount would have been the one that first got us on the right path to go around the Moon; and the second one, which reshaped the trajectory to get the 10 hours’ relief on the return. The others were coarser burns which, obviously, if they’d tracked a while and saw that it didn’t turn out right, we could have repeated those. They were very small maneuvers; tweaks, I guess is the terminology used. We could have executed several of those.

[Assistant] Of course one of the things that was significantly different about your entry into the Earth’s atmosphere from previous Apollo missions is that you still had the lunar module attached as you approached Earth and [you] had to get rid of it. Was there any concern that the lunar module and command module might collide as you were coming back into the atmosphere?

[User] No. I didn’t worry because that was again part of the plan that Mission Control had worked out. We set up an attitude and pressurized the tunnel—between the two vehicles. So when we separated the lunar module (and it was quite a jolt), it actually projected [the lunar module] away from us out to the side.\n\n So it dramatically changed its path, so as, again, to lessen that likelihood that we would have this collision.

[Assistant] But that is something that had to be taken into account. But you just felt it was properly planned for?

[User] Oh yeah. That was—it was just part of that final set of steps that had to get done. Before that even, the attitude at which we separated the service module in a similar way to make sure it—we wouldn’t drift back into it when we separated and shot the pictures to try to collect the—that piece of data to support the accident investigation.

[Assistant] I would imagine after you had gotten back in the command module [and] had its full power more or less available to you that this cold situation took care of itself. Things warmed up pretty rapidly at that point, didn’t they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I didn’t worry because that was again part of the plan that Mission Control had worked out. We set up an attitude and pressurized the tunnel—between the two vehicles. So when we separated the lunar module (and it was quite a jolt), it actually projected [the lunar module] away from us out to the side.\n\n So it dramatically changed its path, so as, again, to lessen that likelihood that we would have this collision.

[Assistant] But that is something that had to be taken into account. But you just felt it was properly planned for?

[User] Oh yeah. That was—it was just part of that final set of steps that had to get done. Before that even, the attitude at which we separated the service module in a similar way to make sure it—we wouldn’t drift back into it when we separated and shot the pictures to try to collect the—that piece of data to support the accident investigation.

[Assistant] I would imagine after you had gotten back in the command module [and] had its full power more or less available to you that this cold situation took care of itself. Things warmed up pretty rapidly at that point, didn’t they?

[User] Yes, it did. And it—we powered up some of the things on the LM earlier, too, so that—the combine of the two when we knew we had adequate power left in the lunar module, you know, it felt great. Because it did get pretty much [get] back to the normal temperature by the time we hit entry interface.

[Assistant] Probably a very nice sight to look out the window and see those parachutes above you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. That was—it was just part of that final set of steps that had to get done. Before that even, the attitude at which we separated the service module in a similar way to make sure it—we wouldn’t drift back into it when we separated and shot the pictures to try to collect the—that piece of data to support the accident investigation.

[Assistant] I would imagine after you had gotten back in the command module [and] had its full power more or less available to you that this cold situation took care of itself. Things warmed up pretty rapidly at that point, didn’t they?

[User] Yes, it did. And it—we powered up some of the things on the LM earlier, too, so that—the combine of the two when we knew we had adequate power left in the lunar module, you know, it felt great. Because it did get pretty much [get] back to the normal temperature by the time we hit entry interface.

[Assistant] Probably a very nice sight to look out the window and see those parachutes above you.

[User] That’s the time in Apollo where you really knew you had it made, when you could see the final deployment of the main chutes—at least two of the three. You knew then that there was probably nothing else could go wrong till you splashed down.

[Assistant] Well you mentioned that, in your mind and probably in Jack Swigert’s, there might be other chances; and of course you were on backup crews for other lunar missions. Were you pretty confident then that you would get another chance to go back to the Moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did. And it—we powered up some of the things on the LM earlier, too, so that—the combine of the two when we knew we had adequate power left in the lunar module, you know, it felt great. Because it did get pretty much [get] back to the normal temperature by the time we hit entry interface.

[Assistant] Probably a very nice sight to look out the window and see those parachutes above you.

[User] That’s the time in Apollo where you really knew you had it made, when you could see the final deployment of the main chutes—at least two of the three. You knew then that there was probably nothing else could go wrong till you splashed down.

[Assistant] Well you mentioned that, in your mind and probably in Jack Swigert’s, there might be other chances; and of course you were on backup crews for other lunar missions. Were you pretty confident then that you would get another chance to go back to the Moon?

[User] Well yes, I was. I knew that the program had been altered in the flow of the schedules because they had injected Skylab in between what was then to be the ending missions, which would be Apollo 18 and 19. Having cycled to Apollo 16 as the commander behind John Young, with an initial crew assignment of Bill Pogue [William R. Pogue] as the command module pilot and Jerry Carr [Gerald P. Carr] as the lunar module pilot, I did hope and expected that I would get a chance to cycle through that backup assignment and be—we would be the crew for Apollo 19, which at that time was advertised as the last mission of the program.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was a very good prospect that you would have made an Apollo flight and had that opportunity to walk on the Moon, until those last two flights got canceled.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the time in Apollo where you really knew you had it made, when you could see the final deployment of the main chutes—at least two of the three. You knew then that there was probably nothing else could go wrong till you splashed down.

[Assistant] Well you mentioned that, in your mind and probably in Jack Swigert’s, there might be other chances; and of course you were on backup crews for other lunar missions. Were you pretty confident then that you would get another chance to go back to the Moon?

[User] Well yes, I was. I knew that the program had been altered in the flow of the schedules because they had injected Skylab in between what was then to be the ending missions, which would be Apollo 18 and 19. Having cycled to Apollo 16 as the commander behind John Young, with an initial crew assignment of Bill Pogue [William R. Pogue] as the command module pilot and Jerry Carr [Gerald P. Carr] as the lunar module pilot, I did hope and expected that I would get a chance to cycle through that backup assignment and be—we would be the crew for Apollo 19, which at that time was advertised as the last mission of the program.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was a very good prospect that you would have made an Apollo flight and had that opportunity to walk on the Moon, until those last two flights got canceled.

[User] Yeah. I don’t recall how many—how long we were in that training cycle. Probably a couple of months (2 or 3 months) where that eventuality did happen. 18 and 19 were canceled. Bill Pogue and Jerry Carr were cycled then into the Skylab Program to give them an opportunity to fly. And I inherited Stu Roosa [Stuart A. Roosa] and Ed Mitchell [Edgar D. Mitchell] off of 14 to complete that deadhead backup assignment.

[Assistant] In a sense, ironically, the loss of Apollo 13 and the near-loss of the crew on that mission was probably a factor in the decision to cut short the remainder of the program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I don’t recall how many—how long we were in that training cycle. Probably a couple of months (2 or 3 months) where that eventuality did happen. 18 and 19 were canceled. Bill Pogue and Jerry Carr were cycled then into the Skylab Program to give them an opportunity to fly. And I inherited Stu Roosa [Stuart A. Roosa] and Ed Mitchell [Edgar D. Mitchell] off of 14 to complete that deadhead backup assignment.

[Assistant] In a sense, ironically, the loss of Apollo 13 and the near-loss of the crew on that mission was probably a factor in the decision to cut short the remainder of the program.

[User] I can’t—I cannot really attest to—not having been involved in that decision-making, what was the cause. I frankly surmised it was more one of budgeting. And the hiatus of the—of trying to cycle through Skylab and then get back in the (quote) “lunar mode” over a fair number of years, it would [drag] that out. And the thought of the Agency of getting on with the next program, whatever that may be. I guess in those days there was probably still a buy-in between Space Station or Shuttle (let’s call it (quote) “the next step”). And so I think it was that concern of not having sufficient budget to both continue as well as have sufficient budget to get the next program under way.

[Assistant] And of course there wasn’t much beyond that, that the Shuttle became a very serious consideration; and the costs associated with—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —getting the Shuttle off the ground were a big factor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t—I cannot really attest to—not having been involved in that decision-making, what was the cause. I frankly surmised it was more one of budgeting. And the hiatus of the—of trying to cycle through Skylab and then get back in the (quote) “lunar mode” over a fair number of years, it would [drag] that out. And the thought of the Agency of getting on with the next program, whatever that may be. I guess in those days there was probably still a buy-in between Space Station or Shuttle (let’s call it (quote) “the next step”). And so I think it was that concern of not having sufficient budget to both continue as well as have sufficient budget to get the next program under way.

[Assistant] And of course there wasn’t much beyond that, that the Shuttle became a very serious consideration; and the costs associated with—

[User] Right.

[Assistant] —getting the Shuttle off the ground were a big factor.

[User] Yeah. And there was probably a—certainly a feeling of risk versus gain. We were flying vehicles that were, at best, redundant and two string. And, you know, rather precarious sitting out at the Moon. So it probably was, you know, from the landings that had been made or were already committed to be made, there was probably in NASA’s management’s view a risk versus gain of, you know, “Should we take this hiatus from the program and then come back at it again and have that—face the risk of eventually losing a crew?”

[Assistant] Of course in hindsight, you know many of the people in the country today weren’t around when Apollo flew, but it’s perceived as being the highpoint of NASA’s career as a space agency. And yet, in reality, in addition to the crew that we lost in the Apollo fire, there were a number of really close calls in the Apollo Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now it was—to me it was just remarkable. I mean, I’d been involved in the test business before, and one example is: We did have a problem on Joe Engle [Joe H. Engle] and Dick Truly’s [Richard H. Truly] second flight—second free flight, where they had a leak in a hydrazine tank on the APU [Auxiliary Power Unit] system, which did damage some wire bundles. And they turned that around, if I recall, in 9 days’… including weekends, which caused Gordo [Charles. G. Fullerton] and I, we really, even for the simple kind of flight plan we had to fly, we were pushed to be ready with the training to make that next flight. Turn[ed] it around in 9 days flat.

[Assistant] You flew (what?) two of the captive flight tests and three of the free flights?

[User] Yeah. I flew a total of five of the total eight flight program. …Again we cut the captive short. We only did three; originally I think we had five of those planned, but we got what we needed in three. And then we flew five free flights. Gordo [Charles G.] Fullerton and I flew three of the five.

[Assistant] Right. And Fullerton was your second in command on all of those?

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] Did that require you getting back into the Astronaut Office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I flew a total of five of the total eight flight program. …Again we cut the captive short. We only did three; originally I think we had five of those planned, but we got what we needed in three. And then we flew five free flights. Gordo [Charles G.] Fullerton and I flew three of the five.

[Assistant] Right. And Fullerton was your second in command on all of those?

[User] That’s correct.

[Assistant] Did that require you getting back into the Astronaut Office?

[User] Oh yes. No, I’d cycled back into the Astronaut Office probably about a year before that first free flight. And in that role, we went back to the more traditional role, even before flight, of being a participant in the testing of the real hardware at Palmdale [California] (in that case), involvement with the software development and the discrepancies that were showing up in the loads, both through our simulation, which could accurately work that because we had real IBM-101 computers that were being used in the simulation of Shuttle.\n\n So when the new software load came, the problems we saw in the simulator were identical to what you would see in the real vehicle or in SAIL [Shuttle Avionics Integration Laboratory], which is [an] avionics test facility here at Johnson Space Center. So we had all those kind of involvements working with Mission Control people again and in that same timeframe, defining the flight plans, procedures; and with the Test people at the NASA and the contractors, where the vehicles were being put together.

[Assistant] While it’s not unusual in an aircraft program, in a space—in the space program, it was a bit of an anomaly to fly a vehicle manned for the first time. We’d always done unmanned test flights. Was this any particular concern or consideration from your point of view?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The real flights on the back of 747 were unusual in a couple of respects, one a real surprise. When we first rode on top, you couldn’t see the 747, no matter how, you know, you’d lean over and try to look out the side window or—it just—you couldn’t view any part of it.

[Assistant] Not even a wingtip?

[User] Not even a wingtip. So it was kind of like a magic carpet ride, you know. You’re just moving along the ground and then you take off. And something below you, you knew it was there, but you couldn’t see what was taking you aloft. It was also deceptive sitting up that high. Things always looked like it was going slower than it was, for your taxiing and particularly the first takeoff I really thought Fitz had rotated too early. It didn’t look like we were going fast enough.

[Assistant] Fitz—Fitz—

[User] Fitz Fulton, who was flying—

[Assistant] —who was flying the 747.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's very important. And, in addition, yesterday, for example, we had a gathering that one could almost call kind of a goodbye gathering, kind of to celebrate the end of Phase 1. And when the Russian program director, Valery [Victorovitch] Ryumin, stood up to deliver his assessment of the results of the program, the first item that he noted was not the solution of the engineering problems, despite the fact that they were nonetheless very significant, if I have in any way made that clear in the course of a short interview, he said the most important thing was the joint common experience that had been gained, the working together of people, the mutual work of experts and specialists, the mutual understanding, the good will, and that it was these qualities that would assure successful future work in space.

[Assistant] We have spoken to many people as part of this history program. That sentiment has been expressed by almost everyone.

[User] The same.

[Assistant] The same.

[User] I understand.

[Assistant] It has been a common thread of all we've talked to. They talk very successfully of the technical achievements and have much pride in what they accomplished technically and for the future of space, but you can tell that their hearts overflow with the feeling of getting to know their international partners very well as friends and colleagues and know that this will set the pace for the next part of the space station exploration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The same.

[Assistant] The same.

[User] I understand.

[Assistant] It has been a common thread of all we've talked to. They talk very successfully of the technical achievements and have much pride in what they accomplished technically and for the future of space, but you can tell that their hearts overflow with the feeling of getting to know their international partners very well as friends and colleagues and know that this will set the pace for the next part of the space station exploration.

[User] So I understand. We, in Russia, call it that manual factor. You understand?

[Assistant] Yes. What are your future plans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I understand.

[Assistant] It has been a common thread of all we've talked to. They talk very successfully of the technical achievements and have much pride in what they accomplished technically and for the future of space, but you can tell that their hearts overflow with the feeling of getting to know their international partners very well as friends and colleagues and know that this will set the pace for the next part of the space station exploration.

[User] So I understand. We, in Russia, call it that manual factor. You understand?

[Assistant] Yes. What are your future plans?

[User] Of course, I've got rather grand plans, big plans. I have for a fairly long time now been involved in Phase 2. I'm the director on the Russian side of the working group on rendezvous and docking. We've got a number of years of close work with our American colleagues in front of us, because, as was the case with Mir, the International Space Station will be visited by space vehicles from both Russia and America. There's a number of technical and engineering issues that face us, and some of them will be more complex than those that we faced with the Mir-Shuttle program, so we have quite a bit of work to do, and we look forward to a successful accomplishment of that work when we're ready to perform it. Despite the fact that we have all of these issues to contend with, some of which will be addressed after the start of station construction, we nonetheless have a certain core set of problems that must be addressed in the short time frame before we start the International Space Station.\n\n So those, briefly speaking, are our plans, and as I've said before, thanks to our successful work in Phase 1, we stand ready to work with our American colleagues toward the successful resolution of the issues to do with the International Space Station.

[Assistant] This concludes our interview with you, and before we say thank you once again, we wish you many successes, and we hope all of your challenges are achieved without too much stress.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I understand. We, in Russia, call it that manual factor. You understand?

[Assistant] Yes. What are your future plans?

[User] Of course, I've got rather grand plans, big plans. I have for a fairly long time now been involved in Phase 2. I'm the director on the Russian side of the working group on rendezvous and docking. We've got a number of years of close work with our American colleagues in front of us, because, as was the case with Mir, the International Space Station will be visited by space vehicles from both Russia and America. There's a number of technical and engineering issues that face us, and some of them will be more complex than those that we faced with the Mir-Shuttle program, so we have quite a bit of work to do, and we look forward to a successful accomplishment of that work when we're ready to perform it. Despite the fact that we have all of these issues to contend with, some of which will be addressed after the start of station construction, we nonetheless have a certain core set of problems that must be addressed in the short time frame before we start the International Space Station.\n\n So those, briefly speaking, are our plans, and as I've said before, thanks to our successful work in Phase 1, we stand ready to work with our American colleagues toward the successful resolution of the issues to do with the International Space Station.

[Assistant] This concludes our interview with you, and before we say thank you once again, we wish you many successes, and we hope all of your challenges are achieved without too much stress.

[User] Thank you very much.

[Assistant]
You've welcome, and thank you again for spending time with us this morning.

Would you share on camera the interview that you--would you explain about your interview that took place in Russia. Tell us again about the magazine* so that we can have it on the recorder so we will be able to share that with others. [*Semyachkin presented a copy of a magazine to NASA JSC Oral History Project that featured an article about him.]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, and it was not meant to be a “let’s make sure you understand” meeting. It was meant to be a “I’m going to get your ideas.” I think the Vice President, in leading the meeting, was gently trying to persuade people, but he was not there to be the apologist for the space program. He was genuinely, I think, trying to have a dialogue and get people’s thoughts and ideas, and not be confronting and disagreeing with people. He did, though, on that one, he did say, “Really?” or something to that effect. [Laughs] It caught him by surprise, too; it was, “Really?” But then he rightly didn’t push back on it.

[Assistant] Do you think that sort of feeling led to part of the demise, too, that people weren’t buying into how it would affect them?

[User] I think so. It was, yes. I probably shouldn’t generalize this fully, but I think there was not, in those meetings, other than in the space leadership meeting, not surprisingly—people didn’t just exhibit great enthusiasm; I’ll put it that way. I mean, they were nice. These are very sophisticated and very smart people. But they did not exhibit great enthusiasm. Several, but not many, just outright said, “You shouldn’t do this.” But the tone of the meetings was more, “That’s interesting,” and I think the White House picked up on that.

[Assistant] I read that [Dr.] Carl [Edward] Sagan [astronomer] was one of the people that was in one of those meetings.

[User] Yes, he was. It’s an interesting list of people, when you look at the folks in all those different meetings, very interesting.

[Assistant] After you were replaced at NASA Headquarters and you came back to JSC as the Manager for Technical Projects in the Space Station Projects Office, how did that change come about? Obviously, you said Mike Griffin had replaced you at Headquarters, but how did you come back to that position and what were your duties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. It was, yes. I probably shouldn’t generalize this fully, but I think there was not, in those meetings, other than in the space leadership meeting, not surprisingly—people didn’t just exhibit great enthusiasm; I’ll put it that way. I mean, they were nice. These are very sophisticated and very smart people. But they did not exhibit great enthusiasm. Several, but not many, just outright said, “You shouldn’t do this.” But the tone of the meetings was more, “That’s interesting,” and I think the White House picked up on that.

[Assistant] I read that [Dr.] Carl [Edward] Sagan [astronomer] was one of the people that was in one of those meetings.

[User] Yes, he was. It’s an interesting list of people, when you look at the folks in all those different meetings, very interesting.

[Assistant] After you were replaced at NASA Headquarters and you came back to JSC as the Manager for Technical Projects in the Space Station Projects Office, how did that change come about? Obviously, you said Mike Griffin had replaced you at Headquarters, but how did you come back to that position and what were your duties?

[User] This is one of those cases I’m sure you’ve never encountered before, where one’s job description and job title are completely different. [Laughter] You’re shocked, I can tell.

[Assistant] Not at NASA. [Laughs]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Again, not to generalize, because certainly not everyone. Because a lot of the leadership here wanted that to happen. But a lot of the people, many people, felt that that was a mistake. Too complicated, too costly, dealing with people that—who are those people? All the kind of things that happen when you have a collision of cultures. And it was very hard to do, but I think it was (a) the right thing to do for Space Station, because it survived, and (b) strategically, for the future, it’s absolutely the right thing to do. But that was a hard time, and it took someone like Mr. Goldin who just—“Torpedoes be damned,” and who was very politically attuned, to make that happen.

[Assistant] Of course, there was that cooperation that eventually came out of it.

[User] Yes, which we’re all better for, and really has begun to create a human exploration of space enterprise, which is, I think, to the benefit of all of us.

[Assistant] And it gets the attention of the entire world this way.

[User] Yes, it does. It could get more attention if we’d do better at it, but we don’t. We’re engineers. Back to my earlier comment about really thinking through why we’re here and shaping it to respond to that, not just build hardware, is a problem. It is in that, for sure.

[Assistant] Well, from that position you were asked to go to Stennis Space Center [Mississippi] in 1995 as the Deputy Director.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, which we’re all better for, and really has begun to create a human exploration of space enterprise, which is, I think, to the benefit of all of us.

[Assistant] And it gets the attention of the entire world this way.

[User] Yes, it does. It could get more attention if we’d do better at it, but we don’t. We’re engineers. Back to my earlier comment about really thinking through why we’re here and shaping it to respond to that, not just build hardware, is a problem. It is in that, for sure.

[Assistant] Well, from that position you were asked to go to Stennis Space Center [Mississippi] in 1995 as the Deputy Director.

[User] Well, we missed a step here.

[Assistant] Oh, did we? Okay, well, let’s go back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I guess I've always been in that process that when one program is starting to get routine, I've moved on to the next one. I prefer it that way. In the same way, I got very little involved in Skylab. When I say very little involved, there were always exercises that you could get picked on for. I mean, I got charged by Bob [Robert F.] Thompson, or requested by Bob Thompson, to be on a technical panel that evaluated the suits for Skylab, the maneuvering unit.

[Assistant] The Manned Maneuvering Unit?

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] Astronaut Maneuvering Unit, I guess.

[User] Yes, things like that, so there would always be the possibility of some involvement, but as in the main you were employed on something else as a main track.

[Assistant] So was it the same then for the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] Astronaut Maneuvering Unit, I guess.

[User] Yes, things like that, so there would always be the possibility of some involvement, but as in the main you were employed on something else as a main track.

[Assistant] So was it the same then for the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project?

[User] Yes, right.

[Assistant] Of course, with Space Station that kind of went away in favor of Space Shuttle first.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It doesn't come through very clearly. If I'd been doing any reading on U.S. space activities, it seemed to me it was mostly concerned with the effort on the West Coast, dropping the vehicles from high-flying aircraft and boosting into space that way. I can distinctly remember being interviewed at AVRO by, I think it was Chuck Mathews, and asking about that, were they connected with that. I think he was a little bit taken aback, he said, "No." He said, "We're going to put a capsule on top of an Atlas booster."\n\n I kind of grinned and said, "Sounds like a good idea." [Laughter]\n\n I should say my first trip after I joined NASA was down the Cape to see an Atlas launch. It blew up about 100 feet off the pad, and I kind of thought it was going to be a long hard road before we'd stick a man on top of one of those things.

[Assistant] Well, that certainly wasn't a rare sight at that time.

[User] Yes. It was very frequent.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Yes. But, no, I don't remember much about concerning—as I say, I remember seeing the Sputnik and wondering what the United States' response would be. I guess I'd read about the efforts by the Navy to launch a satellite, failed efforts. But, no, I was too involved in trying to make a way in Canada.

[Assistant] Later on when you were part of the space program, and shortly after Al [Alan B.] Shepard's[Jr.] flight, President [John F.] Kennedy made his famous "get to the moon by the end of the decade" speech. Do you remember that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd worked with some good people before, both in England and Canada, but certainly my impressions of the Space Task Group people when I first went there, I was really impressed. My first few years with NASA I consider the happiest part of my life. It was ideal. Interesting job, very few politics, guys that I liked, and to some degree exploring the U.S.A., which I didn't know much about, so it all came together.

[Assistant] Are you still keeping up with the space program and what's going on nowadays?

[User] Not for the last year or two. I have a friend who's working for the successor to Eagle, Muniz Engineering [Inc.], and we correspond by e-mail and he lets me know sometimes what the latest Space Station disasters are. I check out the NASA Watch. Is it NASA Watch site, the rebel station or whatever it is? I get a lot of information from that, never know whether to believe it or not, but I check it out. [Laughter] But, no, not a lot the last couple of years. Before that, I used to keep in touch quite regularly, especially going to Eagle meetings and listening to what was going on there.

[Assistant] I was just thinking, the recent flight with Eileen Collins, where they had the computer failures—

[User] No, I don't know anything about that. I read about it, just what was in the newspapers.

[Assistant] Looking back on your career as a whole, what do you think the biggest challenge was for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not for the last year or two. I have a friend who's working for the successor to Eagle, Muniz Engineering [Inc.], and we correspond by e-mail and he lets me know sometimes what the latest Space Station disasters are. I check out the NASA Watch. Is it NASA Watch site, the rebel station or whatever it is? I get a lot of information from that, never know whether to believe it or not, but I check it out. [Laughter] But, no, not a lot the last couple of years. Before that, I used to keep in touch quite regularly, especially going to Eagle meetings and listening to what was going on there.

[Assistant] I was just thinking, the recent flight with Eileen Collins, where they had the computer failures—

[User] No, I don't know anything about that. I read about it, just what was in the newspapers.

[Assistant] Looking back on your career as a whole, what do you think the biggest challenge was for you?

[User] Oh, I'd have to say STS-1 verification, the last job I did. It's certainly the one that gave me the most gray hairs, I guess. It's the only one I got a peacetime medal for, so it must be considered to be the one, yes.

[Assistant] What do you feel is the most significant accomplishment you made in the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't know anything about that. I read about it, just what was in the newspapers.

[Assistant] Looking back on your career as a whole, what do you think the biggest challenge was for you?

[User] Oh, I'd have to say STS-1 verification, the last job I did. It's certainly the one that gave me the most gray hairs, I guess. It's the only one I got a peacetime medal for, so it must be considered to be the one, yes.

[Assistant] What do you feel is the most significant accomplishment you made in the space program?

[User] Oh, the same thing, yes. I don't think anybody knew who I was until I got that job.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a moment of levity but yes, it was like, “Who’s the jinx, we don’t know. You better go now, we don’t want you to come back. We don’t want to go back into training. As much as we love you, it’s tiring.”

[Assistant] I can imagine. How long were the crews in training before they flew generally?

[User] Early on it was about a year. The IUS, the inertial upper stage, was the booster that was going to [boost Chandra to orbit] once Chandra was out of the payload bay, and it was an Air Force device. We had several slips for whatever reasons, I honestly can’t even remember now. Those happen. Then an Air Force launch got up into orbit but then the IUS, when it deployed, the satellite tumbled. They ended up losing their payload. We slipped a while till they could go out and check our IUS, because it was the same basic system, because we were using that. So we slipped to make sure that there wasn’t any issue once they had worked through and discovered what that problem was.\n\n It was about a year and a half that we trained 93, start to finish. I can look up one thing. I can probably tell you when we did our first sim and when we did our last one. [Refers to logbooks]

[Assistant] Those are great resources, glad to see you saved them.

[User] We started in April of ’98 and they launched late July of ’99. So it was a year and three months. That’s about how long it was. The last sim was on—let me see if I can find it. I may have another book. I think I do.

[Assistant] I was going to say that looks like a whole book for that mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Early on it was about a year. The IUS, the inertial upper stage, was the booster that was going to [boost Chandra to orbit] once Chandra was out of the payload bay, and it was an Air Force device. We had several slips for whatever reasons, I honestly can’t even remember now. Those happen. Then an Air Force launch got up into orbit but then the IUS, when it deployed, the satellite tumbled. They ended up losing their payload. We slipped a while till they could go out and check our IUS, because it was the same basic system, because we were using that. So we slipped to make sure that there wasn’t any issue once they had worked through and discovered what that problem was.\n\n It was about a year and a half that we trained 93, start to finish. I can look up one thing. I can probably tell you when we did our first sim and when we did our last one. [Refers to logbooks]

[Assistant] Those are great resources, glad to see you saved them.

[User] We started in April of ’98 and they launched late July of ’99. So it was a year and three months. That’s about how long it was. The last sim was on—let me see if I can find it. I may have another book. I think I do.

[Assistant] I was going to say that looks like a whole book for that mission.

[User] Yes, I ran out here. There’s probably another one in here. Volume one, if I’d looked I would have known that. Anyway it would have been a week before they launched. So it would have been late July was our last sim. I don’t see volume two in here.

[Assistant] So launch is like graduation day for the crew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We started in April of ’98 and they launched late July of ’99. So it was a year and three months. That’s about how long it was. The last sim was on—let me see if I can find it. I may have another book. I think I do.

[Assistant] I was going to say that looks like a whole book for that mission.

[User] Yes, I ran out here. There’s probably another one in here. Volume one, if I’d looked I would have known that. Anyway it would have been a week before they launched. So it would have been late July was our last sim. I don’t see volume two in here.

[Assistant] So launch is like graduation day for the crew.

[User] Yes, it is, and for us it’s the culmination of all your work as a training team member. Then when you come back you go back into generic sims. It’s a little bit of a letdown after that, but you get to see how well your crew does and watch the mission. When you come back [from the launch] you go to Mission Control [to the sim control area to watch the mission activities].\n\n One last thing I’ll leave you with on the 93 mission that was just fabulous. During the entry day there’s a famous shot now someone took outside JSC. We were sitting in Mission Control, and we knew they were going to fly over Houston. The conditions were going to be right that we could probably see the plasma trail. We had to run down about the time, because the flight controllers are saying when they’re going to be visible, this and that, and this and that. They couldn’t leave. We were hearing that, and we ran outside into the parking lot in Mission Control Center. By golly, that thing just came flying right by, really high, but this beautiful bright orange plasma trail trailing behind it. You may see this picture around, or you may have already seen it, but there’s one, because someone took it, one of the photographers here at JSC, right above the Saturn V before it was encased. It was just gorgeous streak.

[Assistant] I think I have seen that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it is, and for us it’s the culmination of all your work as a training team member. Then when you come back you go back into generic sims. It’s a little bit of a letdown after that, but you get to see how well your crew does and watch the mission. When you come back [from the launch] you go to Mission Control [to the sim control area to watch the mission activities].\n\n One last thing I’ll leave you with on the 93 mission that was just fabulous. During the entry day there’s a famous shot now someone took outside JSC. We were sitting in Mission Control, and we knew they were going to fly over Houston. The conditions were going to be right that we could probably see the plasma trail. We had to run down about the time, because the flight controllers are saying when they’re going to be visible, this and that, and this and that. They couldn’t leave. We were hearing that, and we ran outside into the parking lot in Mission Control Center. By golly, that thing just came flying right by, really high, but this beautiful bright orange plasma trail trailing behind it. You may see this picture around, or you may have already seen it, but there’s one, because someone took it, one of the photographers here at JSC, right above the Saturn V before it was encased. It was just gorgeous streak.

[Assistant] I think I have seen that.

[User] That’s Eileen and STS-93 on entry. Once we lost sight of them, you had to get back up if you wanted to watch the landing data in Mission Control Center, because they were going to be in Florida really quickly and landing. You didn’t want to miss that. When we heard they were going to fly by, that was just a special moment. “Wow, look at that.” That’s an Orbiter and five people that I know and I work with and care a lot about, are [they] in that moving piece of plasma.

[Assistant] It’s amazing.

[User] That huge trail moving lickety-split across the sky.

[Assistant] Now I’m looking at the clock and it’s actually noon. You want to stop?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a long time ago to try to remember why. I mean, I don't know why I did something yesterday. Let alone 40 years ago. It just seemed like it seemed like, just the right the right thing to do. I was ready, I was ready for an adventure. I'd spent the summer in Europe the year before traveling around. I thought I could manage in the international environment.

[Assistant] Did you have a specific country or project that you were interested?

[User] No, no, it was at that point, it was pretty much of a crapshoot. You were going to go wherever they want to send you. I was, I thought, oh, that would be. My preference was something where they spoke Spanish. Of course I got Brazil, which speaks Portuguese. So that was. I really can't give you a motivation. I'm sure there was something noble about it. I can't remember that at this time nor did I get drunk and sign up. I think it was a pretty deliberate point of looking for an adventure, I think.

[Assistant] Ok. What were your friends and family’s reactions when you were accepted? Was there any hesitation or reservations either on your part or on their part?

[User] Um, besides my girlfriend not being very happy?

[Assistant] That's the first I've heard that one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, it was at that point, it was pretty much of a crapshoot. You were going to go wherever they want to send you. I was, I thought, oh, that would be. My preference was something where they spoke Spanish. Of course I got Brazil, which speaks Portuguese. So that was. I really can't give you a motivation. I'm sure there was something noble about it. I can't remember that at this time nor did I get drunk and sign up. I think it was a pretty deliberate point of looking for an adventure, I think.

[Assistant] Ok. What were your friends and family’s reactions when you were accepted? Was there any hesitation or reservations either on your part or on their part?

[User] Um, besides my girlfriend not being very happy?

[Assistant] That's the first I've heard that one.

[User] Yeah. Well, I don't think she was too pleased and maybe it was a premise I didn't want to get married at the time, and that was another motivation motivating factor going away for two years to give me two years to grow up. I don't know, I don't think they were terribly comfortable with it, I think it was scary for them to have me go far away and not quite know what kind of an environment I was go into. I wasn't that concerned about it. But that's part of my sort of worldview about things will work out something positive.

[Assistant] Ok. What project were you invited to join?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, besides my girlfriend not being very happy?

[Assistant] That's the first I've heard that one.

[User] Yeah. Well, I don't think she was too pleased and maybe it was a premise I didn't want to get married at the time, and that was another motivation motivating factor going away for two years to give me two years to grow up. I don't know, I don't think they were terribly comfortable with it, I think it was scary for them to have me go far away and not quite know what kind of an environment I was go into. I wasn't that concerned about it. But that's part of my sort of worldview about things will work out something positive.

[Assistant] Ok. What project were you invited to join?

[User] Invited? What was I assigned to? It was a focus on distributing Food for Peace in rural schools, which is what our whole group was supposed to work on, is fostering the use of the powdered milk that Food for Peace, McGovern Food for Peace was distributing. They had other they had other projects, and our major purpose was to encourage rural school systems, primarily rural mayors in Brazil, to develop and expand school lunch programs. There was a great concern that the school lunch stuff was coming into a few schools and it was just being handed out in powdered form for the kids. And so they weren't getting the nutritional value, and very often they weren't certainly getting the hygienic value of cooked milk and water prepared, et cetera, for drinking the milk and how it was being used by the families. So it's really a premise of trying to set up a lunch, fixed lunchtime with a meal, with whatever they could use, and that was both in the plaza and the city centers, as well as a number of ex schools that were outside of the municipality. The municipality I was in was 90 miles square, 90 miles by 90 miles. So that's what, 80,100 miles square. But it was 90 by 90, so the schools are spread out all over the place.

[Assistant] What did what did they do with the powdered milk before they got somebody to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Invited? What was I assigned to? It was a focus on distributing Food for Peace in rural schools, which is what our whole group was supposed to work on, is fostering the use of the powdered milk that Food for Peace, McGovern Food for Peace was distributing. They had other they had other projects, and our major purpose was to encourage rural school systems, primarily rural mayors in Brazil, to develop and expand school lunch programs. There was a great concern that the school lunch stuff was coming into a few schools and it was just being handed out in powdered form for the kids. And so they weren't getting the nutritional value, and very often they weren't certainly getting the hygienic value of cooked milk and water prepared, et cetera, for drinking the milk and how it was being used by the families. So it's really a premise of trying to set up a lunch, fixed lunchtime with a meal, with whatever they could use, and that was both in the plaza and the city centers, as well as a number of ex schools that were outside of the municipality. The municipality I was in was 90 miles square, 90 miles by 90 miles. So that's what, 80,100 miles square. But it was 90 by 90, so the schools are spread out all over the place.

[Assistant] What did what did they do with the powdered milk before they got somebody to?

[User] Well before the mayor really sort of signed up for the program and it was, you get a Peace Corps volunteer to help you do this. And we had just apparently just had a change in office at the town I went to. I think the stuff just sort of went and sat.

[Assistant] So it didn't ever get used.

[User] And it wasn't, it was a very I was primarily in the two schools that were in the city and it didn't get out to the rural school.

[Assistant] Now was that through CARE or something like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well before the mayor really sort of signed up for the program and it was, you get a Peace Corps volunteer to help you do this. And we had just apparently just had a change in office at the town I went to. I think the stuff just sort of went and sat.

[Assistant] So it didn't ever get used.

[User] And it wasn't, it was a very I was primarily in the two schools that were in the city and it didn't get out to the rural school.

[Assistant] Now was that through CARE or something like that?

[User] Well, it wasn't through CARE. It was really through a government, U.S. government program that went to the that was giving Food for Peace, labeled Your Food for Peace, the United States of America and distributed to Brazil. And then they had Brazil, had a government leader, state affiliated with the governor's office, whose job it was to distribute, get the stuff out and use the Peace Corps mechanism to do that to a lot of, to most of the cities.

[Assistant] So this is going back a little. Did you prepare yourself at all for being away two years, I imagine probably not too much because.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it wasn't, it was a very I was primarily in the two schools that were in the city and it didn't get out to the rural school.

[Assistant] Now was that through CARE or something like that?

[User] Well, it wasn't through CARE. It was really through a government, U.S. government program that went to the that was giving Food for Peace, labeled Your Food for Peace, the United States of America and distributed to Brazil. And then they had Brazil, had a government leader, state affiliated with the governor's office, whose job it was to distribute, get the stuff out and use the Peace Corps mechanism to do that to a lot of, to most of the cities.

[Assistant] So this is going back a little. Did you prepare yourself at all for being away two years, I imagine probably not too much because.

[User] No, I mean, I'd just been away for four years, yeah, but for two more years wasn't much more difference to me.

[Assistant] Ok, let's talk about your training. Where was it? What was the faculty like, the syllabus, technical studies, reaction to other trainees?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I mean, I'd just been away for four years, yeah, but for two more years wasn't much more difference to me.

[Assistant] Ok, let's talk about your training. Where was it? What was the faculty like, the syllabus, technical studies, reaction to other trainees?

[User] The training was in Georgetown University in the summer. So it's always nice to be in Washington, D.C., in July and August. It was just stifling. But we were on the Georgetown campus. We had, well, I would say excellent, excellent teachers. A number of them were, not quite refugees, but they were political asylum type folks who had left the country, Brazil, because it was a dictatorship at the time, it was a military dictatorship. So they were in the States, to some extent, do their activism. That's just information we gather, we really sort of get a head full of their philosophies. I thought the syllabus was good, I'm just I'm not very good at languages. It was a real struggle to pick up Portuguese for me, even though I'd had college level Spanish. And it wasn't much of an immersion, unfortunately, so that didn't that didn't help either. It was sort of another class. All I remember is the language, while I remember the language classes, and I remember animal husbandry that we had to do because we were in a nutrition program, we were supposed to raise rabbits and chickens and all sorts of different gardens and they taught us how to kill chickens and how to kill rabbits.

[Assistant] This is all at Georgetown?

[User] All at Georgetown, I couldn't imagine, for such an urban environment. That was how to. Yeah. They worked on the nutrition aspect of it. And they taught us how to be good wives. That was an interesting premise.

[Assistant] Well, how many were in your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All at Georgetown, I couldn't imagine, for such an urban environment. That was how to. Yeah. They worked on the nutrition aspect of it. And they taught us how to be good wives. That was an interesting premise.

[Assistant] Well, how many were in your group?

[User] There may have been 20 of us to start. Yeah, there was probably about 20 of us. We had two groups that were in Peace Corps training at the time. There was another group that was. At the University of, I teach at the university level, so these are primarily master's degree people who were on campus with us. And their job was, I'm not sure what they were going to do at the universities, but I think they were going to be assigned to Brazilian universities.

[Assistant] How was the selection process, were there surprises, disappointments, enjoyments, you know, or did you lose a lot of people?

[User] No, I think. I think I do remember the anxiety at the end of our training when people were still waiting for their FBI background check. And that just took forever, and it got pretty nip and tuck at the end as well where somebody was going to go or not. Which created anxiety for all of us because we got fairly close. I think a few of the people that had gone through the training didn't go. And they really were cut loose or didn't they didn't. I don't. I don't recall any of that came in our group.

[Assistant] So all of the training was it was here in the States, is that right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, through the Experiment in International Living, they had contract for our initial in-country stay. And so we stayed for a month. Each of us was assigned a family home. And so we were in, our group is divided into two. Half of them went to Espírito Santo, which is on the coast of Brazil, and the other half went into the interior into the state of Goiás, where I was, and the capital of Goiás is Goiânia and it was a city of about 350,000 people. And so we were each with the 10 of us, 10 or 12 of us that came by the, um, each was assigned to a family home. And when we got, when we landed in Goiânia, we were just sort of taken off by these families with the in-country leader, was situated in Goiânia and he was in the capital city. And so we lived with these families for a month before we were then assigned to our specific villages that we went out to. Nobody stayed in the capital city

[Assistant] So the month was in the capital city and then you went out to places.

[User] Yeah, so and it wasn't there were meetings, but primarily it was an adjustment time. There was I don't recall us having a great deal of additional training. In the capital city, most of it was living life with these, these people basically working on the language skills, which was the crucial part. So that was the immersion, that was the beginning of the immersion process.

[Assistant] Did you have any choice in where you're going all?

[User]
No, no, they just said.

In pairs or singly?

I think we were all singly assigned. So, yeah, we're all in our own town by ourselves. There was a married couple that stayed together. The rest were all distributed.

[Assistant] Ok. How do you feel that the training prepared you and was it useful to your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, so and it wasn't there were meetings, but primarily it was an adjustment time. There was I don't recall us having a great deal of additional training. In the capital city, most of it was living life with these, these people basically working on the language skills, which was the crucial part. So that was the immersion, that was the beginning of the immersion process.

[Assistant] Did you have any choice in where you're going all?

[User]
No, no, they just said.

In pairs or singly?

I think we were all singly assigned. So, yeah, we're all in our own town by ourselves. There was a married couple that stayed together. The rest were all distributed.

[Assistant] Ok. How do you feel that the training prepared you and was it useful to your service?

[User]
Well, the language was at least a start. And it gave me some. They gave me some confidence to try some things. I think that was in there, trying to raise rabbits and did other things and start a garden. Things like that. The success there, I think, is really dependent on the politicians and the individual towns. My mayor was a real successful farmer, just became mayor, was pretty illiterate, but he was very committed to the project, so that made the difference.

So the mayor assigned somebody, assigned me a driver and a truck, a Land Rover, stick shift Land Rover, which I didn't drive, that would have been nice to have some training because I didn't drive stick. No idea.

[Assistant] You had a driver though?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, no, they just said.

In pairs or singly?

I think we were all singly assigned. So, yeah, we're all in our own town by ourselves. There was a married couple that stayed together. The rest were all distributed.

[Assistant] Ok. How do you feel that the training prepared you and was it useful to your service?

[User]
Well, the language was at least a start. And it gave me some. They gave me some confidence to try some things. I think that was in there, trying to raise rabbits and did other things and start a garden. Things like that. The success there, I think, is really dependent on the politicians and the individual towns. My mayor was a real successful farmer, just became mayor, was pretty illiterate, but he was very committed to the project, so that made the difference.

So the mayor assigned somebody, assigned me a driver and a truck, a Land Rover, stick shift Land Rover, which I didn't drive, that would have been nice to have some training because I didn't drive stick. No idea.

[Assistant] You had a driver though?

[User] I had a driver and I had somebody that the mayor paid to be the escolar coordinator. So we traveled everywhere together.

[Assistant] So your primary focus was setting up the the lunch programs. Now what about, you know, gardening and rabbits and chickens?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, the language was at least a start. And it gave me some. They gave me some confidence to try some things. I think that was in there, trying to raise rabbits and did other things and start a garden. Things like that. The success there, I think, is really dependent on the politicians and the individual towns. My mayor was a real successful farmer, just became mayor, was pretty illiterate, but he was very committed to the project, so that made the difference.

So the mayor assigned somebody, assigned me a driver and a truck, a Land Rover, stick shift Land Rover, which I didn't drive, that would have been nice to have some training because I didn't drive stick. No idea.

[Assistant] You had a driver though?

[User] I had a driver and I had somebody that the mayor paid to be the escolar coordinator. So we traveled everywhere together.

[Assistant] So your primary focus was setting up the the lunch programs. Now what about, you know, gardening and rabbits and chickens?

[User] I tried all that, but it all failed. Yeah, the ants ate all the gardens and the rabbits. The dogs killed the rabbits.

[Assistant] I introduced rabbits to my village. And then when I went back, you know, 15 years later, there were no rabbits left, but at least I started.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a driver and I had somebody that the mayor paid to be the escolar coordinator. So we traveled everywhere together.

[Assistant] So your primary focus was setting up the the lunch programs. Now what about, you know, gardening and rabbits and chickens?

[User] I tried all that, but it all failed. Yeah, the ants ate all the gardens and the rabbits. The dogs killed the rabbits.

[Assistant] I introduced rabbits to my village. And then when I went back, you know, 15 years later, there were no rabbits left, but at least I started.

[User] Yeah, you got it going. I kept only these cages and the wood and those materials are really pretty dear at the time. The dogs just were adamant about the rabbits.

[Assistant] Now I just ran into another guy that was in my group who was actually coming here to work as an organizer on the recall campaign for Darling.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, you got it going. I kept only these cages and the wood and those materials are really pretty dear at the time. The dogs just were adamant about the rabbits.

[Assistant] Now I just ran into another guy that was in my group who was actually coming here to work as an organizer on the recall campaign for Darling.

[User] Oh, really? Against Darling, I hope.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Are we getting our political views in here?

[Assistant] And he made this washing machine, you know, which is really I mean, it was a good thing, but you know, they didn't have a water supply. And he went back last year and he went into the villages and said, I was here so many years ago, and he says, oh, were you the guy with the washing machine?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, really? Against Darling, I hope.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Are we getting our political views in here?

[Assistant] And he made this washing machine, you know, which is really I mean, it was a good thing, but you know, they didn't have a water supply. And he went back last year and he went into the villages and said, I was here so many years ago, and he says, oh, were you the guy with the washing machine?

[User] Oh, really?

[Assistant] Yeah. So it seems like these funny things, these are these failures actually have more impact. Yeah. Ok, so let's see where were we. Ok, let's start with your initial entry into the country and your reaction and describe your project.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Are we getting our political views in here?

[Assistant] And he made this washing machine, you know, which is really I mean, it was a good thing, but you know, they didn't have a water supply. And he went back last year and he went into the villages and said, I was here so many years ago, and he says, oh, were you the guy with the washing machine?

[User] Oh, really?

[Assistant] Yeah. So it seems like these funny things, these are these failures actually have more impact. Yeah. Ok, so let's see where were we. Ok, let's start with your initial entry into the country and your reaction and describe your project.

[User] I had a wonderful family that I stayed with. And in fact, it became a family that I had maintained a long-term relationship with, and only recently has that fallen apart. Christmas cards, they came here to visit. My wife and I went back to visit them. So that long-term relationship was created just by that month stay and then I was supposed to. And then when we came back to the city for different meetings, people made different arrangements, but my Brazilian mother insisted that I stay there. Rather emphatic about it, so it was a. That was just a good idea, and that was one of the best things that came out of my experience in Brazil, was this wonderful family that I really felt a part of.

[Assistant] What about the physical environment? Is it different than you expected or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There's no respect whatsoever, you know. Yeah, I experienced that with the Americans. Flew into, never talked to me. Didn't want to talk to me, didn't want to. Oh, OK. I don't know why they were there, I think they were looking at the mine probably. Very rude ministers to American missionaries. Not anxious to deal with anything there. But the in-house transition. You just had to make it on your own. There was no way to introduce you to a village, especially a village where everybody is watching you. I think I made some good political decisions about where I was going to live. Not totally aware of it, but moving to a much cheaper environment, pension to the hotel, the hotel quote-unquote, and moving away from the small little Protestant sect that was there in the village to living in a much more Catholic environment, although I'm Protestant. It seemed to just being a cheaper place was a better move.

[Assistant] Now you were still in the city?

[User] Ah, well, this is a city of three thousand people. So it's not a, I mean, didn't have any big roads. And it didn't have. It had electricity, some electricity at night. Had running water, but basically stuff came down from the mountains nearby, so the water was sort of funneled into it.

[Assistant] So that was your base and then you went to the villages?

[User] Yeah, we went out to the different, other different settlements, I think would be the term. And some of the school the schools of the city were built by the Alliance for, Alliance for Progress? Kennedy's program. Alliance for Progress, I think. But with Kennedy, a lot of schools were developed at that time. The mayor himself had been in schools out in the interior. A lot of sort of startup stuff too. It was really hard to get started in my town. I didn't have any great opposition, people are very friendly. I didn't feel like there was great barriers.

[Assistant] So they accepted you socially, pretty much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ah, well, this is a city of three thousand people. So it's not a, I mean, didn't have any big roads. And it didn't have. It had electricity, some electricity at night. Had running water, but basically stuff came down from the mountains nearby, so the water was sort of funneled into it.

[Assistant] So that was your base and then you went to the villages?

[User] Yeah, we went out to the different, other different settlements, I think would be the term. And some of the school the schools of the city were built by the Alliance for, Alliance for Progress? Kennedy's program. Alliance for Progress, I think. But with Kennedy, a lot of schools were developed at that time. The mayor himself had been in schools out in the interior. A lot of sort of startup stuff too. It was really hard to get started in my town. I didn't have any great opposition, people are very friendly. I didn't feel like there was great barriers.

[Assistant] So they accepted you socially, pretty much.

[User] Yeah, I primarily interacted with kids and the kids in the school. Then I got a little crowd, a little high school English, which was certainly drive me. I would never want to be a teacher or couldn't be a teacher. It was very hard.

[Assistant] What were the specifics of your job that was assigned, living conditions, typical day, relations to the people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we went out to the different, other different settlements, I think would be the term. And some of the school the schools of the city were built by the Alliance for, Alliance for Progress? Kennedy's program. Alliance for Progress, I think. But with Kennedy, a lot of schools were developed at that time. The mayor himself had been in schools out in the interior. A lot of sort of startup stuff too. It was really hard to get started in my town. I didn't have any great opposition, people are very friendly. I didn't feel like there was great barriers.

[Assistant] So they accepted you socially, pretty much.

[User] Yeah, I primarily interacted with kids and the kids in the school. Then I got a little crowd, a little high school English, which was certainly drive me. I would never want to be a teacher or couldn't be a teacher. It was very hard.

[Assistant] What were the specifics of your job that was assigned, living conditions, typical day, relations to the people?

[User] I mean, no day had any structure in it whatsoever, so, really. I did not have a structured day, so I had to create everything, yeah. I just had I had to create everything negotiated with going out the Food for Peace. Food would come in by truck. We were working on getting that out to the town. Encouraged me with the principals and the local principals, the two local principals are great ladies and we would work on increasing and improving the quality of the food lunch, the food meal. There was two grade schools and one high school, middle school, really. So we just had the food program in the two grade schools.

[Assistant] Now was the food program more than the milk?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I primarily interacted with kids and the kids in the school. Then I got a little crowd, a little high school English, which was certainly drive me. I would never want to be a teacher or couldn't be a teacher. It was very hard.

[Assistant] What were the specifics of your job that was assigned, living conditions, typical day, relations to the people?

[User] I mean, no day had any structure in it whatsoever, so, really. I did not have a structured day, so I had to create everything, yeah. I just had I had to create everything negotiated with going out the Food for Peace. Food would come in by truck. We were working on getting that out to the town. Encouraged me with the principals and the local principals, the two local principals are great ladies and we would work on increasing and improving the quality of the food lunch, the food meal. There was two grade schools and one high school, middle school, really. So we just had the food program in the two grade schools.

[Assistant] Now was the food program more than the milk?

[User] Yeah, well, they would send other they would send other food sources and they would have some dried soy powder. They had cornmeal that came out. They had a blend of soybean oil and cornmeal, which was better. They would send oil for soups. Some flour, flour also. So there are some variety of foodstuffs, so it wasn't always available, and then we look at work on different recipes for that they would put together.

[Assistant] What about the local agriculture? What did they raise?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, they would send other they would send other food sources and they would have some dried soy powder. They had cornmeal that came out. They had a blend of soybean oil and cornmeal, which was better. They would send oil for soups. Some flour, flour also. So there are some variety of foodstuffs, so it wasn't always available, and then we look at work on different recipes for that they would put together.

[Assistant] What about the local agriculture? What did they raise?

[User] There is primarily cattle and rice. They had a big, the city of the center of the city was a rice processor. No, I'm not quite sure what you call it, but a rice mill. And so people would bring up their harvests of rice, that was a big aspect of them. The other, the big farms were cattle raising farms. So the sort of highlands, I'm not sure, I don't know, how they raised rice? But they raised rice. There was some industry there. There was a, in fact, my brother, the brother of the family that I stayed with, had a mica processing a little factory there, so people sat there all day long slicing mica into different grades and separating it in different grades and then shipping it out.

[Assistant] Very interesting.

[User] My brother never came up there to see it. I will never meet, never quite made that visit, but there were some other folks that came that I had met in Goiânia who came up there doing the work, but. So, yeah, it was basically a farm town. You know, they would ship the rice out. You paid for them and what they did with the cattle, I have no idea. I have no idea. I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing them slaughtering the cattle, how they what they did with that, how they got, how do they got any money out of the cattle? I don't know.

[Assistant] Did they eat beef there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There is primarily cattle and rice. They had a big, the city of the center of the city was a rice processor. No, I'm not quite sure what you call it, but a rice mill. And so people would bring up their harvests of rice, that was a big aspect of them. The other, the big farms were cattle raising farms. So the sort of highlands, I'm not sure, I don't know, how they raised rice? But they raised rice. There was some industry there. There was a, in fact, my brother, the brother of the family that I stayed with, had a mica processing a little factory there, so people sat there all day long slicing mica into different grades and separating it in different grades and then shipping it out.

[Assistant] Very interesting.

[User] My brother never came up there to see it. I will never meet, never quite made that visit, but there were some other folks that came that I had met in Goiânia who came up there doing the work, but. So, yeah, it was basically a farm town. You know, they would ship the rice out. You paid for them and what they did with the cattle, I have no idea. I have no idea. I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing them slaughtering the cattle, how they what they did with that, how they got, how do they got any money out of the cattle? I don't know.

[Assistant] Did they eat beef there?

[User] Yeah, every day. Every day. I had bread and coffee for breakfast and then for lunch, I would have a little piece of meat like a. That's what I would have twice a day. I'd have the bread and then the rice and beans and rice and beans. If somebody was, if somebody else stayed at pension, then sometimes we got something a little more exotic.

[Assistant] Did you cook for yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My brother never came up there to see it. I will never meet, never quite made that visit, but there were some other folks that came that I had met in Goiânia who came up there doing the work, but. So, yeah, it was basically a farm town. You know, they would ship the rice out. You paid for them and what they did with the cattle, I have no idea. I have no idea. I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing them slaughtering the cattle, how they what they did with that, how they got, how do they got any money out of the cattle? I don't know.

[Assistant] Did they eat beef there?

[User] Yeah, every day. Every day. I had bread and coffee for breakfast and then for lunch, I would have a little piece of meat like a. That's what I would have twice a day. I'd have the bread and then the rice and beans and rice and beans. If somebody was, if somebody else stayed at pension, then sometimes we got something a little more exotic.

[Assistant] Did you cook for yourself?

[User] No, no. I was in a bed and breakfast, well, a rooming house, basically. And, um, the only people that really came and stayed there. I was, I was the main financial support for that, because every once in a Dona Viday would come and say, she'd asked me if she could borrow some money. She was just short because the bus driver stayed there, so I'd see him every other day and then because the bus would come into the village one day and then go out the next and then come back the next day. And the other interesting guy was a guy from Rio de Janeiro who came in and was in charge of malaria eradication. So that was nice to have somebody to talk to there with a broader world view.

[Assistant] So you really worked on your Portuguese. Is that right?