[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t think about it at the time, but yes, absolutely, I do now. I’m proud of me.

[Assistant] With good reason, because it’s important to keep things running.

[User] Yes, and I was capable of doing that. I really was not very tolerant of women who were not willing or didn’t think they were able to stand up and take care of things. I am not very patient with them, I wasn’t then and still aren’t.

[Assistant] Not all the marriages survived, unfortunately.

[User] No. In fact a lot of astronaut marriages failed. It was definitely a stressful time. A lot of women expected more of their marriages than I think marriages should be expected to provide. You make your own happiness. Your partner doesn’t make your happiness.

[Assistant] When Apollo came along, he was a flight director. I think it was after the Apollo 1 fire, during that time he went into flight director training instead of doing the GNC [Guidance and Navigation Control] work. That was a different, and I imagine added stress to what he was doing. Could you just talk about some of those missions, like Apollo 8? Do you have any memories of that mission, or watching that on television, since it was on Christmas Eve?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and I was capable of doing that. I really was not very tolerant of women who were not willing or didn’t think they were able to stand up and take care of things. I am not very patient with them, I wasn’t then and still aren’t.

[Assistant] Not all the marriages survived, unfortunately.

[User] No. In fact a lot of astronaut marriages failed. It was definitely a stressful time. A lot of women expected more of their marriages than I think marriages should be expected to provide. You make your own happiness. Your partner doesn’t make your happiness.

[Assistant] When Apollo came along, he was a flight director. I think it was after the Apollo 1 fire, during that time he went into flight director training instead of doing the GNC [Guidance and Navigation Control] work. That was a different, and I imagine added stress to what he was doing. Could you just talk about some of those missions, like Apollo 8? Do you have any memories of that mission, or watching that on television, since it was on Christmas Eve?

[User] Oh yes, it was fantastic. Man had left the influence of the Earth. I agree with Gerry. I think that was probably the most monumental, because we stepped out there. That’s amazing. That was the first big step, leaving the Earth, period. Fantastic.

[Assistant] It was stressful, I would imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. In fact a lot of astronaut marriages failed. It was definitely a stressful time. A lot of women expected more of their marriages than I think marriages should be expected to provide. You make your own happiness. Your partner doesn’t make your happiness.

[Assistant] When Apollo came along, he was a flight director. I think it was after the Apollo 1 fire, during that time he went into flight director training instead of doing the GNC [Guidance and Navigation Control] work. That was a different, and I imagine added stress to what he was doing. Could you just talk about some of those missions, like Apollo 8? Do you have any memories of that mission, or watching that on television, since it was on Christmas Eve?

[User] Oh yes, it was fantastic. Man had left the influence of the Earth. I agree with Gerry. I think that was probably the most monumental, because we stepped out there. That’s amazing. That was the first big step, leaving the Earth, period. Fantastic.

[Assistant] It was stressful, I would imagine.

[User] I don’t know. I wasn’t aware of the great stress. I don’t think Gerry was either. Gerry likes being out on the end of the diving board, he still does. That’s what he liked when I met him, and that’s just the way our life has been; I never think about it.

[Assistant] Do you remember that Christmas Eve? Were you at home with your family, or were you with other people during that time watching it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, it was fantastic. Man had left the influence of the Earth. I agree with Gerry. I think that was probably the most monumental, because we stepped out there. That’s amazing. That was the first big step, leaving the Earth, period. Fantastic.

[Assistant] It was stressful, I would imagine.

[User] I don’t know. I wasn’t aware of the great stress. I don’t think Gerry was either. Gerry likes being out on the end of the diving board, he still does. That’s what he liked when I met him, and that’s just the way our life has been; I never think about it.

[Assistant] Do you remember that Christmas Eve? Were you at home with your family, or were you with other people during that time watching it?

[User] We were probably in Houston because Gerry never was anywhere except in the control center. I’m sure we were there. My mother very likely was there with us. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] How about Apollo 11? What are your memories of that mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. I wasn’t aware of the great stress. I don’t think Gerry was either. Gerry likes being out on the end of the diving board, he still does. That’s what he liked when I met him, and that’s just the way our life has been; I never think about it.

[Assistant] Do you remember that Christmas Eve? Were you at home with your family, or were you with other people during that time watching it?

[User] We were probably in Houston because Gerry never was anywhere except in the control center. I’m sure we were there. My mother very likely was there with us. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] How about Apollo 11? What are your memories of that mission?

[User] It was just like all the others, fantastic. The world was watching, and I was aware that the world was watching. I was also aware that it was not just us, it was the world that went to the Moon. I felt that then, still do, it wasn’t just the USA, the world went to the Moon. Everybody in the world was watching, guarantee you, and I knew it.

[Assistant] You mentioned before you weren’t as aware of how important what they were doing was until later. Was that one of your first times that you started being aware of that importance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were probably in Houston because Gerry never was anywhere except in the control center. I’m sure we were there. My mother very likely was there with us. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] How about Apollo 11? What are your memories of that mission?

[User] It was just like all the others, fantastic. The world was watching, and I was aware that the world was watching. I was also aware that it was not just us, it was the world that went to the Moon. I felt that then, still do, it wasn’t just the USA, the world went to the Moon. Everybody in the world was watching, guarantee you, and I knew it.

[Assistant] You mentioned before you weren’t as aware of how important what they were doing was until later. Was that one of your first times that you started being aware of that importance?

[User] Oh, probably, but I didn’t dwell on anything. Just go to the next page. Just turn the page.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the splashdown parties after that mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just like all the others, fantastic. The world was watching, and I was aware that the world was watching. I was also aware that it was not just us, it was the world that went to the Moon. I felt that then, still do, it wasn’t just the USA, the world went to the Moon. Everybody in the world was watching, guarantee you, and I knew it.

[Assistant] You mentioned before you weren’t as aware of how important what they were doing was until later. Was that one of your first times that you started being aware of that importance?

[User] Oh, probably, but I didn’t dwell on anything. Just go to the next page. Just turn the page.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the splashdown parties after that mission?

[User] Oh God, yes. I didn’t last very long at that one, I was home early. Yes, the parties were always at the hotels all around us. One thing I really enjoyed, Jim [James L.] Hartz had become one of our very best friends. Jim Hartz was NBC. Ended up later being the [NBC] Today show host. Big-time. He hung out at our house all the time. At the Nassau Bay Hotel, the NBC News thing [booth] was a little doodad on the top, and he spent most of his free time at our house shooting horse [basketball game] with our little boy and eating burgers with us and stuff like that, picking Gerry’s brain, trying to learn all he could about engineering. Crash course in engineering. He’s still a good friend. It was fun having Jim Hartz, who was an important NBC news guy hang out at my house. That was always fun. I loved doing that.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you were when you were watching them walk on the Moon for the first time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, probably, but I didn’t dwell on anything. Just go to the next page. Just turn the page.

[Assistant] Do you remember any of the splashdown parties after that mission?

[User] Oh God, yes. I didn’t last very long at that one, I was home early. Yes, the parties were always at the hotels all around us. One thing I really enjoyed, Jim [James L.] Hartz had become one of our very best friends. Jim Hartz was NBC. Ended up later being the [NBC] Today show host. Big-time. He hung out at our house all the time. At the Nassau Bay Hotel, the NBC News thing [booth] was a little doodad on the top, and he spent most of his free time at our house shooting horse [basketball game] with our little boy and eating burgers with us and stuff like that, picking Gerry’s brain, trying to learn all he could about engineering. Crash course in engineering. He’s still a good friend. It was fun having Jim Hartz, who was an important NBC news guy hang out at my house. That was always fun. I loved doing that.

[Assistant] Do you remember where you were when you were watching them walk on the Moon for the first time?

[User] In my house in Nassau Bay. Always home. Always in front of my very own TV, because Gerry was always over at the control center.

[Assistant] I think Apollo 12 was the first lead flight director mission for him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my house in Nassau Bay. Always home. Always in front of my very own TV, because Gerry was always over at the control center.

[Assistant] I think Apollo 12 was the first lead flight director mission for him.

[User] That was his first one, and boy, he was excited.

[Assistant] Was he?

[User] Yes. He was going to be on the end of the diving board for sure, and he was. Lightning struck. His voice got very high. You could hear it.

[Assistant] On the communication loops.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was his first one, and boy, he was excited.

[Assistant] Was he?

[User] Yes. He was going to be on the end of the diving board for sure, and he was. Lightning struck. His voice got very high. You could hear it.

[Assistant] On the communication loops.

[User] You can hear it.

[Assistant] Yes. It was an interesting mission. Apollo 13, you mentioned that you had to chase him down because he was playing softball somewhere when that happened. Did you see him much after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. He was going to be on the end of the diving board for sure, and he was. Lightning struck. His voice got very high. You could hear it.

[Assistant] On the communication loops.

[User] You can hear it.

[Assistant] Yes. It was an interesting mission. Apollo 13, you mentioned that you had to chase him down because he was playing softball somewhere when that happened. Did you see him much after that?

[User] No. He was gone. Actually during a lot of the missions we didn’t see him at all, because I had little people [at home]. Kirk was getting older, and he wasn’t a problem. But I had a little one, and Gerry was having to sleep quite often during the daytime, so he often stayed over on site. The control center had sleeping quarters. It had no windows, was cold, dark, and quiet, so he stayed over there. He would come home, shower, get clean underwear and clothes, and then go back. That was fine, because I had my world that had to happen on a regular schedule. Kids had to get to school, normal things still had to happen, doctors’ appointments, and other stuff.\n\n One thing about it, I didn’t have to worry about feeding him, which is still fine when he’s gone. I don’t have to worry about feeding him. It’s always easier.

[Assistant] It’s something you became accustomed to after all the years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can hear it.

[Assistant] Yes. It was an interesting mission. Apollo 13, you mentioned that you had to chase him down because he was playing softball somewhere when that happened. Did you see him much after that?

[User] No. He was gone. Actually during a lot of the missions we didn’t see him at all, because I had little people [at home]. Kirk was getting older, and he wasn’t a problem. But I had a little one, and Gerry was having to sleep quite often during the daytime, so he often stayed over on site. The control center had sleeping quarters. It had no windows, was cold, dark, and quiet, so he stayed over there. He would come home, shower, get clean underwear and clothes, and then go back. That was fine, because I had my world that had to happen on a regular schedule. Kids had to get to school, normal things still had to happen, doctors’ appointments, and other stuff.\n\n One thing about it, I didn’t have to worry about feeding him, which is still fine when he’s gone. I don’t have to worry about feeding him. It’s always easier.

[Assistant] It’s something you became accustomed to after all the years.

[User] Yes. After a week or so I’m ready for him to come home, but I never ever minded him being gone for short periods. It happened from day one, because when we were at Hamilton he sat on alert. They had live weapons on their airplanes, and when they were on alert he was out at the alert hangar, so very early on I had a husband that was gone.

[Assistant] Since he was in mission control, I probably already know the answer to this, but did you ever have a chance to see any launches or landings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. After a week or so I’m ready for him to come home, but I never ever minded him being gone for short periods. It happened from day one, because when we were at Hamilton he sat on alert. They had live weapons on their airplanes, and when they were on alert he was out at the alert hangar, so very early on I had a husband that was gone.

[Assistant] Since he was in mission control, I probably already know the answer to this, but did you ever have a chance to see any launches or landings?

[User] No, not until we went elsewhere. Some of the people, when they weren’t on an active flight, did go down and watch launches. Gerry said they didn’t pay him to go stand around and be a spectator. They paid him to be in mission control. He never left mission control during the entire Apollo Program, he didn’t see a flight of any kind until we got to Washington, and me either. Couldn’t afford it. NASA wasn’t going to pay to send me to the Cape. I never could even get into mission control.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You never got in to see anything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not until we went elsewhere. Some of the people, when they weren’t on an active flight, did go down and watch launches. Gerry said they didn’t pay him to go stand around and be a spectator. They paid him to be in mission control. He never left mission control during the entire Apollo Program, he didn’t see a flight of any kind until we got to Washington, and me either. Couldn’t afford it. NASA wasn’t going to pay to send me to the Cape. I never could even get into mission control.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You never got in to see anything.

[User] No.

[Assistant] The viewing room, or any part of it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You never got in to see anything.

[User] No.

[Assistant] The viewing room, or any part of it.

[User] No, not until later. We didn’t have access to anything. I loved it when he was the Center Director. I had access to everything.

[Assistant] I can imagine. He did move on, and I think ’73 is when he moved to [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] The viewing room, or any part of it.

[User] No, not until later. We didn’t have access to anything. I loved it when he was the Center Director. I had access to everything.

[Assistant] I can imagine. He did move on, and I think ’73 is when he moved to [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.].

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You took the kids and went with him at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not until later. We didn’t have access to anything. I loved it when he was the Center Director. I had access to everything.

[Assistant] I can imagine. He did move on, and I think ’73 is when he moved to [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, D.C.].

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You took the kids and went with him at that time?

[User] No, kids were still in school. He got that assignment before the end of school, and I didn’t even go up and house-hunt with him. Didn’t have time and couldn’t afford it for one thing. NASA would pay for one trip to house-hunt, but there was always extenuating circumstances.

[Assistant] With kids in school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, I put it on the market. We got twice as much for it as we paid for it, which was amazing. However, it cost us twice as much as we made on the Nassau Bay house to get a house in Vienna.

[Assistant] Yes. Cost of living is a higher there.

[User] It was definitely a shock. We never ever got ahead. Everyplace we lived cost us more. Same was true in California. When Gerry was at Dryden, we lived in Lancaster, California. When he was at Kennedy [Space Center, (KSC) Florida], we lived in Satellite Beach.

[Assistant] You lived in different communities. You went to Vienna and then after that out to Dryden and then Kennedy and then back to Headquarters at some point.

[User] No, I never did go back to Headquarters.

[Assistant] You didn’t go back when he went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was definitely a shock. We never ever got ahead. Everyplace we lived cost us more. Same was true in California. When Gerry was at Dryden, we lived in Lancaster, California. When he was at Kennedy [Space Center, (KSC) Florida], we lived in Satellite Beach.

[Assistant] You lived in different communities. You went to Vienna and then after that out to Dryden and then Kennedy and then back to Headquarters at some point.

[User] No, I never did go back to Headquarters.

[Assistant] You didn’t go back when he went?

[User] No. I stayed in Florida, and Gerry commuted. He was Deputy Director of KSC on Monday and Friday, and at NASA Headquarters in DC as Associate Administrator for External Relations on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday for close to two years. It was Gwen’s junior and senior years in high school. She was the head cheer leader and also taking college classes at Brevard Community College. I was playing a lot of golf and also acting as secretary for the first ever men’s senior PGA tournament event ever held at our country club, Suntree, in Melbourne, Florida.

[Assistant] Just talk maybe just for a second, because you had to live in different communities. Especially at Dryden and then again in Kennedy, were you in communities similar to what you were down here as far as NASA people living in the area? Or were you in more separate areas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I never did go back to Headquarters.

[Assistant] You didn’t go back when he went?

[User] No. I stayed in Florida, and Gerry commuted. He was Deputy Director of KSC on Monday and Friday, and at NASA Headquarters in DC as Associate Administrator for External Relations on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday for close to two years. It was Gwen’s junior and senior years in high school. She was the head cheer leader and also taking college classes at Brevard Community College. I was playing a lot of golf and also acting as secretary for the first ever men’s senior PGA tournament event ever held at our country club, Suntree, in Melbourne, Florida.

[Assistant] Just talk maybe just for a second, because you had to live in different communities. Especially at Dryden and then again in Kennedy, were you in communities similar to what you were down here as far as NASA people living in the area? Or were you in more separate areas?

[User] No, we never were in a NASA community again. That situation never existed again. That community in Clear Lake was unusual. The other communities we lived in, we never really wanted to live right near the Center. We didn’t want to be totally immersed in the NASA world. We never wanted to live on the golf course either, because we never wanted to be totally immersed in the golf course world. We wanted always to have some space between our worlds. It was a good way to do it, because that way we were a part of a number of worlds. We always had our golf community, we always had our NASA community.\n\n When we lived in Vienna, those legislative affairs people lived all over the place – Virginia, Maryland, and DC. They had never ever been to a beer bust or Texas barbecue, so we had a big beer bust and barbecue at our house on the driveway. We cooked brisket, chicken, ribs and pot of beans and shot baskets. They had a ball. Those people had never done anything like that in their lives. Legislative affairs had certainly never ever done anything like that.

[Assistant] You brought a little Texas to them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Brought Texas to the Vienna community. Actually we lived only two blocks from the golf course, but none of our neighbors played golf. I could walk to the club, and I had a pull cart to carry my clubs. The kids would go off to school and I would go to the golf course. I played a lot of golf. Beautiful golf course. The Westwood Country Club.\n\n Loved the wintertime because the lakes froze, and I could bounce my ball across the water. I did join the women’s golf association because that was the group I played with on a regular basis and it afforded tournaments and intra-club events for me to play in. It’s the only women’s organization I ever joined in the places we’ve lived.

[Assistant] Eventually you did come back to Houston. Did you choose to live in Houston this time instead of the Clear Lake area when you got back? Or did you live in Clear Lake?

[User] Yes, we first lived in Clear Lake. We lived in a patio home just outside the Center. Absolutely loved it. Zero-lot-line. What’s that area called?

[Assistant] Is it University Green?

[User] Yes, University Green. We had a huge hot tub/spa. Gerry and Ace Decking Company, which was made up of half of the astronaut corps and the flight control people who volunteered and built our deck. I think Ellison [S.] Onizuka’s wife never believed that he was actually at our house building a deck. They never would let El have a hammer because he kept missing the nails and dinging the redwood. He was relegated to holding boards and stuff like that.\n\n I loved that little house, it was all decked, with a little bit of grass for our dog. It was so easy to keep inside and out. We were there until Gerry went to town.

[Assistant] When he retired from NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gerry had a speech every morning, every noon, every night. Rubber chicken and green pea activities. I was responsible to be on his arm, smiling and charming. That became magnified as we joined the Chamber. One of the major events then was the Red Rose Ball, University of Houston-Downtown, which we were both great supporters of and still are. You just automatically get involved as the head of JSC or the Houston Chamber.

[Assistant] You said you got your degree at University of Houston-Clear Lake 30 years and one semester later.

[User] Thirty years and one semester. Yes, the proudest single event of my life. I had started college in September 1955. I finally got the degree in December 1985.

[Assistant] Was that during the Center Director time?

[User] Yes. Gerry had been given an honorary degree from the University of Houston-Clear Lake. He ended up presenting me my diploma, which was a total surprise to me.

[Assistant] Oh, how wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the best thing I ever did for me. Loved every minute of it.

[Assistant] It’s a good school.

[User] Oh, good grief. Now it’s a four-year school.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I’m proud of it. I loved every minute of it, and my association with it. That was one of the things that I disliked about our move to town with the Chamber job. I had to stop taking graduate classes at the Clear Lake campus.

[Assistant] That was the early years of the school too. It hadn’t been around that long when you were going there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, good grief. Now it’s a four-year school.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I’m proud of it. I loved every minute of it, and my association with it. That was one of the things that I disliked about our move to town with the Chamber job. I had to stop taking graduate classes at the Clear Lake campus.

[Assistant] That was the early years of the school too. It hadn’t been around that long when you were going there.

[User] No.

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Jennifer, see if she has anything to add.

Yes, I had a couple of questions. I was making some notes for myself here. You had said that the community in Clear Lake was unusual, and it was never going to exist again. Did you have a sense when you were living there in the ’60s how unusual this community was? Or was it only when you came back that you realized it was unusual?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it really was.

[Assistant] But what made it like a family? What brought you all together? Was it NASA? Was it Apollo? Was it a combination? Was it something else?

[User] It was all of that. NASA was the catalyst. You were in this swamp where people weren’t supposed to live, for one thing. It really was. In fact it was kind of like—most people that move to places like that get hardship pay. But it really was a difficult place because no one had ever lived there before—a huge population hadn’t. We felt like we’re in this together, and together we can make this good for all of us. We all were sharing a lot – not unlike a family. Houston is an anomaly, for crying out loud. Something that big and that dynamic shouldn’t be where it is. The whole thing is mud. So what happened in the Clear Lake area just fits with what Houston did. It’s almost a spirit or something that generates its own energy – its own force. NASA fits into that naturally.

[Assistant] You were talking to Sandra about El Lago. I was curious, were there any neighborhood traditions that were established during the ’60s that you recall? Different things that you guys might have done that have carried through over the years?

[User] Oh, I don’t know. I have no idea. We were just living one day at a time.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Clear Lake City Country Club. I actually live in the original part of Clear Lake City and I’ve met some folks who were members of that. They talked about how that country club and then the Clear Lake Rec [Recreation and Community] Center really were a place where there was a large community, a place for people to gather who didn’t have a lot of family or friends in the area. Was that the case for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I understood what he was doing. I have an analytical, mechanical kind of a mind, so I knew quite well what he was doing. A lot of wives didn’t know what their husbands did. I happened to be able to understand it. I’m not an engineer or anything; I’m not interested in that kind of detail. I’m more as he is, interested in operations. He would tell me what was going on. He would call me and say, “Hey, make sure you pay attention to the news tonight, such and such is about to happen or something like that. Or we’ve had a problem and so go turn the news on.” I wasn’t privy to anything necessarily. I understood it a lot better than a lot of people did. A lot of wives were oblivious to everything. But I loved it, loved being a part of it.

[Assistant] You mentioned his voice went up for Apollo 12. How did you know that? Did you have a squawk box or that was on the news?

[User] No, the astronaut families had little radio things in their homes, we didn’t. I heard it later on tapes. No. We weren’t privy to anything. I couldn’t even get in the viewing room. The only reason I could get on site is I could deliver Gerry to work or pick him up. I had no extra privileges. I loved him being Center Director. I finally got to go just about anywhere. I even had parking places.

[Assistant] That’s special there.

[User] That’s the best job I thought he ever had. To him the best job he ever had was flight director. No question.

[Assistant]
Center Director, really got a lot of weight on your shoulders.

It’s all administration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the astronaut families had little radio things in their homes, we didn’t. I heard it later on tapes. No. We weren’t privy to anything. I couldn’t even get in the viewing room. The only reason I could get on site is I could deliver Gerry to work or pick him up. I had no extra privileges. I loved him being Center Director. I finally got to go just about anywhere. I even had parking places.

[Assistant] That’s special there.

[User] That’s the best job I thought he ever had. To him the best job he ever had was flight director. No question.

[Assistant]
Center Director, really got a lot of weight on your shoulders.

It’s all administration.

[User] Yes, too much housekeeping stuff. But it wasn’t weight on my shoulders. I just had to smile and be nice to people.

[Assistant] When you guys came, when they opened the Center, did you get a chance to go out there with the kids and see what NASA was like and tour the facilities? Was that available to families?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the best job I thought he ever had. To him the best job he ever had was flight director. No question.

[Assistant]
Center Director, really got a lot of weight on your shoulders.

It’s all administration.

[User] Yes, too much housekeeping stuff. But it wasn’t weight on my shoulders. I just had to smile and be nice to people.

[Assistant] When you guys came, when they opened the Center, did you get a chance to go out there with the kids and see what NASA was like and tour the facilities? Was that available to families?

[User] Oh goodness, it was grim. It was dusty and dirty and new buildings. We didn’t have access to anything, and there was nothing organized to show it to us. They were already up to their ears with “going to the Moon.” It never occurred to anyone to show the facilities to the families.

[Assistant] Did you feel put off by that at all as a wife?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, too much housekeeping stuff. But it wasn’t weight on my shoulders. I just had to smile and be nice to people.

[Assistant] When you guys came, when they opened the Center, did you get a chance to go out there with the kids and see what NASA was like and tour the facilities? Was that available to families?

[User] Oh goodness, it was grim. It was dusty and dirty and new buildings. We didn’t have access to anything, and there was nothing organized to show it to us. They were already up to their ears with “going to the Moon.” It never occurred to anyone to show the facilities to the families.

[Assistant] Did you feel put off by that at all as a wife?

[User] No. We’d been Air Force, I didn’t have access to any of that either. Didn’t make any difference. It wasn’t anything that I ever thought about.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier when we were off tape about taking apart your washing machine and fixing it. Did the other wives whose husbands were working at NASA ever come to you and say, “You seem to have some of these skills, and I’ve got a problem, can you help me fix it?”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh goodness, it was grim. It was dusty and dirty and new buildings. We didn’t have access to anything, and there was nothing organized to show it to us. They were already up to their ears with “going to the Moon.” It never occurred to anyone to show the facilities to the families.

[Assistant] Did you feel put off by that at all as a wife?

[User] No. We’d been Air Force, I didn’t have access to any of that either. Didn’t make any difference. It wasn’t anything that I ever thought about.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier when we were off tape about taking apart your washing machine and fixing it. Did the other wives whose husbands were working at NASA ever come to you and say, “You seem to have some of these skills, and I’ve got a problem, can you help me fix it?”

[User] No. It’s just what I was interested in doing. I’m a tomboy, and it’s what I liked doing. Helen Garriott did that kind of stuff too. I had a hard time doing—well, still I don’t do girl things very easily. Not interested. I’d rather be taking something apart than playing cards or visiting at a tea.

[Assistant] I just had one more question, and this is a thought that I have. I’m wondering what you think. I think that the women were really integral to building the Clear Lake community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We’d been Air Force, I didn’t have access to any of that either. Didn’t make any difference. It wasn’t anything that I ever thought about.

[Assistant] You mentioned earlier when we were off tape about taking apart your washing machine and fixing it. Did the other wives whose husbands were working at NASA ever come to you and say, “You seem to have some of these skills, and I’ve got a problem, can you help me fix it?”

[User] No. It’s just what I was interested in doing. I’m a tomboy, and it’s what I liked doing. Helen Garriott did that kind of stuff too. I had a hard time doing—well, still I don’t do girl things very easily. Not interested. I’d rather be taking something apart than playing cards or visiting at a tea.

[Assistant] I just had one more question, and this is a thought that I have. I’m wondering what you think. I think that the women were really integral to building the Clear Lake community.

[User] Oh, no doubt.

[Assistant] I’m wondering what your thoughts are on that and how they built that community.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It’s just what I was interested in doing. I’m a tomboy, and it’s what I liked doing. Helen Garriott did that kind of stuff too. I had a hard time doing—well, still I don’t do girl things very easily. Not interested. I’d rather be taking something apart than playing cards or visiting at a tea.

[Assistant] I just had one more question, and this is a thought that I have. I’m wondering what you think. I think that the women were really integral to building the Clear Lake community.

[User] Oh, no doubt.

[Assistant] I’m wondering what your thoughts are on that and how they built that community.

[User] No doubt. Rusty [Russell L.] Schweickart’s first wife.

[Assistant] Is that Clare?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s not much that the wives didn’t do. Ms. Scobee had a freshman roommate. She got her doctorate.

[Assistant] She was committed.

[User] She was committed. An amazing lady like others. She and Dick started school together after they were married. Neither one of them had been to college. Amazing. A lot of people doing a lot of things, but a lot of the wives just succumbed to the whole thing, and it beat them.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, the difference between, I guess personalities play a big point.

[User] Personalities, I guess. In my case I felt ignored sometimes, but I also always felt like it was Gerry and I together. I felt that “we” were in this whole adventure together.

[Assistant] You were a team.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She was committed. An amazing lady like others. She and Dick started school together after they were married. Neither one of them had been to college. Amazing. A lot of people doing a lot of things, but a lot of the wives just succumbed to the whole thing, and it beat them.

[Assistant] That’s interesting, the difference between, I guess personalities play a big point.

[User] Personalities, I guess. In my case I felt ignored sometimes, but I also always felt like it was Gerry and I together. I felt that “we” were in this whole adventure together.

[Assistant] You were a team.

[User] We were a team. I got pretty upset with him a few times. My team member wasn’t pulling his weight. And we didn’t have any money, my gosh, none of us had any money. That was the hard part. We really didn’t.

[Assistant] That’s dedication to take that job knowing you were going to have a cut in pay, and you had two kids to raise.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Personalities, I guess. In my case I felt ignored sometimes, but I also always felt like it was Gerry and I together. I felt that “we” were in this whole adventure together.

[Assistant] You were a team.

[User] We were a team. I got pretty upset with him a few times. My team member wasn’t pulling his weight. And we didn’t have any money, my gosh, none of us had any money. That was the hard part. We really didn’t.

[Assistant] That’s dedication to take that job knowing you were going to have a cut in pay, and you had two kids to raise.

[User] It was really funny. We were finally making $1,000 a month. We thought we were rich. He took a pay cut. “Gerry. You’ve got to be kidding. Okay.”

[Assistant] I imagine that would have been an interesting conversation to sit in on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were a team. I got pretty upset with him a few times. My team member wasn’t pulling his weight. And we didn’t have any money, my gosh, none of us had any money. That was the hard part. We really didn’t.

[Assistant] That’s dedication to take that job knowing you were going to have a cut in pay, and you had two kids to raise.

[User] It was really funny. We were finally making $1,000 a month. We thought we were rich. He took a pay cut. “Gerry. You’ve got to be kidding. Okay.”

[Assistant] I imagine that would have been an interesting conversation to sit in on.

[User] Oh, no, it didn’t actually last very long. It was going to be okay; tell me where to stand. You can do anything for a while, you really can. That’s the way I felt about everyplace we lived. Heck, I can live there. I can do that. Everyplace we lived was fun, had something different to offer. A new adventure if you would just let it be.\n\n Golly, when we lived in Florida, we had our ski boat in our backyard. What’s not fun about that?

[Assistant] Sounds like you have that NASA can-do spirit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was really funny. We were finally making $1,000 a month. We thought we were rich. He took a pay cut. “Gerry. You’ve got to be kidding. Okay.”

[Assistant] I imagine that would have been an interesting conversation to sit in on.

[User] Oh, no, it didn’t actually last very long. It was going to be okay; tell me where to stand. You can do anything for a while, you really can. That’s the way I felt about everyplace we lived. Heck, I can live there. I can do that. Everyplace we lived was fun, had something different to offer. A new adventure if you would just let it be.\n\n Golly, when we lived in Florida, we had our ski boat in our backyard. What’s not fun about that?

[Assistant] Sounds like you have that NASA can-do spirit.

[User] It was fun. Certainly one of those adventures

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to mention before we go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, it didn’t actually last very long. It was going to be okay; tell me where to stand. You can do anything for a while, you really can. That’s the way I felt about everyplace we lived. Heck, I can live there. I can do that. Everyplace we lived was fun, had something different to offer. A new adventure if you would just let it be.\n\n Golly, when we lived in Florida, we had our ski boat in our backyard. What’s not fun about that?

[Assistant] Sounds like you have that NASA can-do spirit.

[User] It was fun. Certainly one of those adventures

[Assistant] Is there anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to mention before we go?

[User] I can’t think what it is, covered just about everything. Our kids grew up very cosmopolitan. Wouldn’t trade that for the world. Both of them. You know Gwen, don’t you?

[Assistant] I’ve talked to her on the phone several times. We’re actually going to do an interview with her after all these.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t think what it is, covered just about everything. Our kids grew up very cosmopolitan. Wouldn’t trade that for the world. Both of them. You know Gwen, don’t you?

[Assistant] I’ve talked to her on the phone several times. We’re actually going to do an interview with her after all these.

[User] Very dynamic, both of them. They can talk to anybody about anything. Kirk is a general contractor here, but he worked for NASA. His degree was building construction, but when he got out of A&M the Houston economy was on its rear. He couldn’t get a job, couldn’t find work. It was terrible, it’s when everything went under. It’s when Gerry left NASA and went to work for the Chamber of Commerce. Gerry represented government and high tech, and they were depending on Gerry to help redirect Houston’s economy, which made sense to me too.\n\n Kirk ended up getting a job with Ford Aerospace. When Gerry retired from NASA, Kirk then went to work for NASA. He was in payloads for 15 years, so he’s a NASA guy. With all our moves the kids and I learned that we had to “suck it up.” Hi. I’m Sandy Griffin. Hi. I’m Kirk Griffin. Hi. I’m Gwen.\n\n When we got to Florida, Gwen came dragging in one day and said, “I am so tired of being on. I am so tired of introducing myself to people.” Here she is, between her junior high and high school, and she’s learned how to do that and how important that is. Both of them are really good at it. They are both dynamic. And I have no regrets.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] Yes. They have fared well as a result.

[Assistant] Not a bad way of growing up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very dynamic, both of them. They can talk to anybody about anything. Kirk is a general contractor here, but he worked for NASA. His degree was building construction, but when he got out of A&M the Houston economy was on its rear. He couldn’t get a job, couldn’t find work. It was terrible, it’s when everything went under. It’s when Gerry left NASA and went to work for the Chamber of Commerce. Gerry represented government and high tech, and they were depending on Gerry to help redirect Houston’s economy, which made sense to me too.\n\n Kirk ended up getting a job with Ford Aerospace. When Gerry retired from NASA, Kirk then went to work for NASA. He was in payloads for 15 years, so he’s a NASA guy. With all our moves the kids and I learned that we had to “suck it up.” Hi. I’m Sandy Griffin. Hi. I’m Kirk Griffin. Hi. I’m Gwen.\n\n When we got to Florida, Gwen came dragging in one day and said, “I am so tired of being on. I am so tired of introducing myself to people.” Here she is, between her junior high and high school, and she’s learned how to do that and how important that is. Both of them are really good at it. They are both dynamic. And I have no regrets.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] Yes. They have fared well as a result.

[Assistant] Not a bad way of growing up.

[User] No, and they both know it. Gwen fought it. As a teen, she hated everything about our world. She didn’t want anything to do with the space business. Funny thing about it is that now her world is totally immersed in it. I used to think Gerry knew everything and everybody in the space world. But no, Gwen does. Kirk and Gwen are both charming. They learned their lessons well.\n\n Actually, I’m basically very shy. But I can say, “Hi. I’m Sandy Griffin.” And I can talk about most anything.

[Assistant] It’s a long way from that girl growing up in Kerrville in a bakery.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They have fared well as a result.

[Assistant] Not a bad way of growing up.

[User] No, and they both know it. Gwen fought it. As a teen, she hated everything about our world. She didn’t want anything to do with the space business. Funny thing about it is that now her world is totally immersed in it. I used to think Gerry knew everything and everybody in the space world. But no, Gwen does. Kirk and Gwen are both charming. They learned their lessons well.\n\n Actually, I’m basically very shy. But I can say, “Hi. I’m Sandy Griffin.” And I can talk about most anything.

[Assistant] It’s a long way from that girl growing up in Kerrville in a bakery.

[User] As I said, I have no idea where I got that.

[Assistant] Sounds like it was a good life, and still is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, and they both know it. Gwen fought it. As a teen, she hated everything about our world. She didn’t want anything to do with the space business. Funny thing about it is that now her world is totally immersed in it. I used to think Gerry knew everything and everybody in the space world. But no, Gwen does. Kirk and Gwen are both charming. They learned their lessons well.\n\n Actually, I’m basically very shy. But I can say, “Hi. I’m Sandy Griffin.” And I can talk about most anything.

[Assistant] It’s a long way from that girl growing up in Kerrville in a bakery.

[User] As I said, I have no idea where I got that.

[Assistant] Sounds like it was a good life, and still is.

[User] Yes, it most certainly still is. Oh, I wouldn’t trade any of it for the world. It’s not all been sweetness and roses, but I’ve had a great life.

[Assistant] No one’s life is. There are ups and downs.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I said, I have no idea where I got that.

[Assistant] Sounds like it was a good life, and still is.

[User] Yes, it most certainly still is. Oh, I wouldn’t trade any of it for the world. It’s not all been sweetness and roses, but I’ve had a great life.

[Assistant] No one’s life is. There are ups and downs.

[User] We’ve been healthy, as well as our kids. Our life has been good. No major negatives. We’re still here, still perking along. Gerry is still as busy as he can possibly be, and our adventure continues. We smile a lot.

[Assistant] We appreciate you talking to us today and spending so much time with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I also applied to Wheaton's theology program.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But didn't really want to continue there. It's a fairly narrow point of view and I didn't really want to continue there, so I didn't. Even though I could have gone on for a master's, the Peace Corps idea came to my attention. Kennedy was in the presidency. He'd only started in 1961.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] We'd gone through the Cuban Missile Crisis, which I didn't really pay that much attention to. I wasn't that aware of what was going on in the outside world, but was certainly aware of the Peace Corps. It got a tremendous amount of attention in the press.

[Assistant] In the years, had you known anyone who joined the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they worked real hard to get a couple of projects in the field before the end of that year.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And even in 1962, there weren't that many projects going out. Now, the Malawi project started training in October of 1962.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So it was 4 or 5 months after my graduation.

[Assistant] Let's go back a little bit. Where did you grow up, what part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And even in 1962, there weren't that many projects going out. Now, the Malawi project started training in October of 1962.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So it was 4 or 5 months after my graduation.

[Assistant] Let's go back a little bit. Where did you grow up, what part?

[User] I'm from Rochester, New York, originally.

[Assistant] Did you go to high school there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was 4 or 5 months after my graduation.

[Assistant] Let's go back a little bit. Where did you grow up, what part?

[User] I'm from Rochester, New York, originally.

[Assistant] Did you go to high school there?

[User] I was born there and graduated from John Marshall High School in Rochester.

[Assistant] During your high school years, did you do any travel? Did you do any special summer projects? Any volunteer work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm from Rochester, New York, originally.

[Assistant] Did you go to high school there?

[User] I was born there and graduated from John Marshall High School in Rochester.

[Assistant] During your high school years, did you do any travel? Did you do any special summer projects? Any volunteer work?

[User] Uh, not in particular. My family would take us out to Ohio and Illinois. My parents were farm children who left the farm and went to college. So I had a taste for seeing, getting around. You know, I'd been across the country and back in a family trip, but not overseas. In fact, my parents never went overseas in their entire lives.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about during your college years? And what did you do with the summers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born there and graduated from John Marshall High School in Rochester.

[Assistant] During your high school years, did you do any travel? Did you do any special summer projects? Any volunteer work?

[User] Uh, not in particular. My family would take us out to Ohio and Illinois. My parents were farm children who left the farm and went to college. So I had a taste for seeing, getting around. You know, I'd been across the country and back in a family trip, but not overseas. In fact, my parents never went overseas in their entire lives.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about during your college years? And what did you do with the summers?

[User] You have to remember, Bob, the jet plane was the new phenomenon back in this time. And the, the only transcontinental jet plane was the Comet that the British had put in the air. And along about that same time, Boeing came up with the 707, which was the first intercontinental public air transport.

[Assistant] But what about, what did you do during your summers in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, not in particular. My family would take us out to Ohio and Illinois. My parents were farm children who left the farm and went to college. So I had a taste for seeing, getting around. You know, I'd been across the country and back in a family trip, but not overseas. In fact, my parents never went overseas in their entire lives.

[Assistant] Yeah. How about during your college years? And what did you do with the summers?

[User] You have to remember, Bob, the jet plane was the new phenomenon back in this time. And the, the only transcontinental jet plane was the Comet that the British had put in the air. And along about that same time, Boeing came up with the 707, which was the first intercontinental public air transport.

[Assistant] But what about, what did you do during your summers in college?

[User] Oh, different things. Um. I think that perhaps the thing that gave me a taste for adventure was going to Alberta, Canada, in 1960. One of my classmates just asked me off the spur of the moment in June, actually, after exams. He said, how'd you like to come to Alberta for the summer and be a cook for my building crew I'm going to be on? So I was up in northern Alberta, got up into an area that was within 100 miles of the Arctic Circle.

[Assistant] So you had done some international travel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You have to remember, Bob, the jet plane was the new phenomenon back in this time. And the, the only transcontinental jet plane was the Comet that the British had put in the air. And along about that same time, Boeing came up with the 707, which was the first intercontinental public air transport.

[Assistant] But what about, what did you do during your summers in college?

[User] Oh, different things. Um. I think that perhaps the thing that gave me a taste for adventure was going to Alberta, Canada, in 1960. One of my classmates just asked me off the spur of the moment in June, actually, after exams. He said, how'd you like to come to Alberta for the summer and be a cook for my building crew I'm going to be on? So I was up in northern Alberta, got up into an area that was within 100 miles of the Arctic Circle.

[Assistant] So you had done some international travel.

[User] Oh yeah, you know, I wasn't afraid of, yeah, I guess you could call Canada international.

[Assistant] So now as you're getting close to graduation, you, you know about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, different things. Um. I think that perhaps the thing that gave me a taste for adventure was going to Alberta, Canada, in 1960. One of my classmates just asked me off the spur of the moment in June, actually, after exams. He said, how'd you like to come to Alberta for the summer and be a cook for my building crew I'm going to be on? So I was up in northern Alberta, got up into an area that was within 100 miles of the Arctic Circle.

[Assistant] So you had done some international travel.

[User] Oh yeah, you know, I wasn't afraid of, yeah, I guess you could call Canada international.

[Assistant] So now as you're getting close to graduation, you, you know about the Peace Corps?

[User] I got ahold of an application and filled it out and sent it in.

[Assistant] Do you remember the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, you know, I wasn't afraid of, yeah, I guess you could call Canada international.

[Assistant] So now as you're getting close to graduation, you, you know about the Peace Corps?

[User] I got ahold of an application and filled it out and sent it in.

[Assistant] Do you remember the application process?

[User] It was basically a form. Maybe six or 7 or 8 sheets.

[Assistant] Do you remember having to take an exam as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got ahold of an application and filled it out and sent it in.

[Assistant] Do you remember the application process?

[User] It was basically a form. Maybe six or 7 or 8 sheets.

[Assistant] Do you remember having to take an exam as well?

[User] No.

[Assistant] They may have given it up by then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was basically a form. Maybe six or 7 or 8 sheets.

[Assistant] Do you remember having to take an exam as well?

[User] No.

[Assistant] They may have given it up by then.

[User] I don't remember an exam.

[Assistant] When you, when you fill out the application, somewhere you indicate an area of preference of assignment. And they also ask you about your skill in the second language. Do you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was Nyasaland when the British were there. And then when it became independent.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] It changed its name, took a new name. Malawi.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And English is the official language. There are 17 or 18 tribal languages there. So I did my work in English.

[Assistant] So June comes, you get your degree from Wheaton.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It changed its name, took a new name. Malawi.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And English is the official language. There are 17 or 18 tribal languages there. So I did my work in English.

[Assistant] So June comes, you get your degree from Wheaton.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And had you heard from the Peace Corps at that point or were you still in the application?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And had you heard from the Peace Corps at that point or were you still in the application?

[User] I don't think I filled my application in till May. I would guess it was May.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I went off for the summer as a door-to-door salesman selling pots and pans, I believe it was. And, um, I was at my brother's house in Rochester when I got the letter from the Peace Corps offering me a place in Nyasaland with training to begin in October. I was so excited. I could, I could tell you exactly where I was when I opened that letter and just bursting with excitement. And it took, it took quite a few days for me to calm down.

[Assistant] No second thoughts at all at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think I filled my application in till May. I would guess it was May.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I went off for the summer as a door-to-door salesman selling pots and pans, I believe it was. And, um, I was at my brother's house in Rochester when I got the letter from the Peace Corps offering me a place in Nyasaland with training to begin in October. I was so excited. I could, I could tell you exactly where I was when I opened that letter and just bursting with excitement. And it took, it took quite a few days for me to calm down.

[Assistant] No second thoughts at all at that point?

[User] I think my parents, my mother probably had second thoughts.

[Assistant] I was going to ask.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I went off for the summer as a door-to-door salesman selling pots and pans, I believe it was. And, um, I was at my brother's house in Rochester when I got the letter from the Peace Corps offering me a place in Nyasaland with training to begin in October. I was so excited. I could, I could tell you exactly where I was when I opened that letter and just bursting with excitement. And it took, it took quite a few days for me to calm down.

[Assistant] No second thoughts at all at that point?

[User] I think my parents, my mother probably had second thoughts.

[Assistant] I was going to ask.

[User] But this was it. I mean, once I got that letter, I accepted it immediately.

[Assistant] And at that point, you didn't know anyone who had been in the Peace Corps or who knew any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think my parents, my mother probably had second thoughts.

[Assistant] I was going to ask.

[User] But this was it. I mean, once I got that letter, I accepted it immediately.

[Assistant] And at that point, you didn't know anyone who had been in the Peace Corps or who knew any?

[User] No.

[Assistant] And do you have siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But this was it. I mean, once I got that letter, I accepted it immediately.

[Assistant] And at that point, you didn't know anyone who had been in the Peace Corps or who knew any?

[User] No.

[Assistant] And do you have siblings?

[User] My older, my brother is six years older. My sister is six years younger.

[Assistant] What was their reaction to what you were doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And do you have siblings?

[User] My older, my brother is six years older. My sister is six years younger.

[Assistant] What was their reaction to what you were doing?

[User] I don't really actually remember.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My older, my brother is six years older. My sister is six years younger.

[Assistant] What was their reaction to what you were doing?

[User] I don't really actually remember.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.

[User] I really don't.

[Assistant] But you knew your folks were a little apprehensive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my mother, you know, was worried, but my mother was not going to stop me. But if you want to get a little glimpse of my mom and father and their, uh, their interaction with this. When I arranged for that Canada trip, my classmate Paul Belisky and I worked out that we would take the train out of Chicago, uh, up to Winnipeg, and from there we would hitchhike. Now that's about a thousand mile hitchhike, I mean, more than that, because Grande Prairie country is 500 miles north of Edmonton and Edmonton is pretty far north of Calgary.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, um, at that time, my parents were in the process of moving from Rochester to Evanston, and my father was in Evanston at the new job and my mother was closing up the house. So he called mom and said, Roland has a chance to go to Alberta. Well, how is he getting there? And father said very shrewdly, well, they're going by train and from Winnipeg they're going by car. And my mother didn't catch the subtlety and gave her approval and off I went. So there was the same sort of trepidation. I remember she sent me a clipping when I was in Malawi.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] From the local paper that said there was some unexplained disease that was breaking out in, uh, in Kenya. People would go, they would laugh and laugh. Continuous laughter. That was, that was the main symptom. And she was worried about this. And I wrote back and said, Mother, I don't think you have to worry. That's a thousand miles away from where I am.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where did you report for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, um, at that time, my parents were in the process of moving from Rochester to Evanston, and my father was in Evanston at the new job and my mother was closing up the house. So he called mom and said, Roland has a chance to go to Alberta. Well, how is he getting there? And father said very shrewdly, well, they're going by train and from Winnipeg they're going by car. And my mother didn't catch the subtlety and gave her approval and off I went. So there was the same sort of trepidation. I remember she sent me a clipping when I was in Malawi.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] From the local paper that said there was some unexplained disease that was breaking out in, uh, in Kenya. People would go, they would laugh and laugh. Continuous laughter. That was, that was the main symptom. And she was worried about this. And I wrote back and said, Mother, I don't think you have to worry. That's a thousand miles away from where I am.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where did you report for training?

[User] We went to Syracuse, New York. Syracuse University had a contract to train us starting in October.

[Assistant] Do you remember the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From the local paper that said there was some unexplained disease that was breaking out in, uh, in Kenya. People would go, they would laugh and laugh. Continuous laughter. That was, that was the main symptom. And she was worried about this. And I wrote back and said, Mother, I don't think you have to worry. That's a thousand miles away from where I am.

[Assistant] Yeah. So where did you report for training?

[User] We went to Syracuse, New York. Syracuse University had a contract to train us starting in October.

[Assistant] Do you remember the?

[User] It was over by, um, before Christmas.

[Assistant] Do you remember the group's first gathering? You're reporting in. Approximately how many were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went to Syracuse, New York. Syracuse University had a contract to train us starting in October.

[Assistant] Do you remember the?

[User] It was over by, um, before Christmas.

[Assistant] Do you remember the group's first gathering? You're reporting in. Approximately how many were there?

[User] There were about 46, 47. We lost several in the process of what they used to call deselection.

[Assistant] We'll get there. About equal men and women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was over by, um, before Christmas.

[Assistant] Do you remember the group's first gathering? You're reporting in. Approximately how many were there?

[User] There were about 46, 47. We lost several in the process of what they used to call deselection.

[Assistant] We'll get there. About equal men and women?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Any married couples, do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were about 46, 47. We lost several in the process of what they used to call deselection.

[Assistant] We'll get there. About equal men and women?

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] Any married couples, do you recall?

[User] A few. And a few marriages came out of it.

[Assistant] Yeah. What, do you recall your impression? You know, now you're meeting 30 some other people who also said they're going to join the Peace Corps. And then there's you. Do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I had a little bit of insecurity. I was a skinny, gawky kid. I went to a college which was relatively unknown, although now I realize what a terrific education I got there. And there were kids there with, um, there were a couple of lawyers. There were Harvard grads. And quite an impressive array of young people.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So it took me a while to, um, feel comfortable with them. And also from my background, I was a non-drinker. And after training, just about every day, the, uh, maybe two thirds or three quarters of them would go across the street and spend the rest of the evening in the bar.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I didn't participate in that, you see.

[Assistant] Great American tradition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it took me a while to, um, feel comfortable with them. And also from my background, I was a non-drinker. And after training, just about every day, the, uh, maybe two thirds or three quarters of them would go across the street and spend the rest of the evening in the bar.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I didn't participate in that, you see.

[Assistant] Great American tradition.

[User] But it was a growth experience for me in that coming from this religious background that was pretty sure they were right, I had to reconcile the fact that here were a bunch of people who were going to go overseas and give of themselves for two years and get nothing back materially for this, um, whose personal habits weren't as tight, tightly wound as mine. And yet I could see they were good people. And that was a very good experience for me and helped me to unwind from this position that I'd found myself in.

[Assistant] It was the beginning of cross-cultural understanding.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't participate in that, you see.

[Assistant] Great American tradition.

[User] But it was a growth experience for me in that coming from this religious background that was pretty sure they were right, I had to reconcile the fact that here were a bunch of people who were going to go overseas and give of themselves for two years and get nothing back materially for this, um, whose personal habits weren't as tight, tightly wound as mine. And yet I could see they were good people. And that was a very good experience for me and helped me to unwind from this position that I'd found myself in.

[Assistant] It was the beginning of cross-cultural understanding.

[User] Well, yes. Even understanding other Americans.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk about the structure of training, how you spent your time and what's?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was, training was new. It was just the early days. And I don't think Peace Corps really knew how to do it very well. This was even before they set up the Puerto Rico experience. And we didn't do any things like the Outward Bound type physical testing. We did pull ups and calisthenics and things, but it was mostly the way an academic institution would do training. So there was a class in American history and foreign relations and a class in Chinyanja, the language class. And health, how to take care of your health overseas.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was more structured that way and lasted through, um, November. It was about, let me think. Let me do this count. About eight weeks long altogether.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Eight or nine.

[Assistant] And it was a comfortable setting. I mean, you just coming out of school, so you're back in a classroom.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was more structured that way and lasted through, um, November. It was about, let me think. Let me do this count. About eight weeks long altogether.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Eight or nine.

[Assistant] And it was a comfortable setting. I mean, you just coming out of school, so you're back in a classroom.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And what about the language? Was that emphasized at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eight or nine.

[Assistant] And it was a comfortable setting. I mean, you just coming out of school, so you're back in a classroom.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And what about the language? Was that emphasized at all?

[User] I thought they, under the circumstances, they did a good job. There really weren't published language material for Chinyanja or Chichewa. It's almost the same thing. But there were some students, grad students from Malawi, that were hired by Syracuse University and a linguist headed that up. He didn't actually know the language, but the African men did a good job and some of the students did very well at it.

[Assistant] Did they concentrate on speaking rather than trying to teach you the grammar and everything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And what about the language? Was that emphasized at all?

[User] I thought they, under the circumstances, they did a good job. There really weren't published language material for Chinyanja or Chichewa. It's almost the same thing. But there were some students, grad students from Malawi, that were hired by Syracuse University and a linguist headed that up. He didn't actually know the language, but the African men did a good job and some of the students did very well at it.

[Assistant] Did they concentrate on speaking rather than trying to teach you the grammar and everything?

[User] Yes, they did both.

[Assistant] How did you do in the language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they did both.

[Assistant] How did you do in the language?

[User] Not well. I just don't have the brain for it, I guess. I learned a lot about languages, though, which has been a nice store of knowledge.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] For, for my work. But I didn't really learn much more than 30 or 40 vocabulary words and phrases. But I would like to add that when I got over there in Malawi, I was placed at a secondary school to teach English, and I felt really guilty about not really getting, uh, my language skills built up. But that would have required getting out into the village, because in the school setting English was the appropriate language. And I finally decided I would be doing a better job for my students to just work with them in English conversation and not have them work with me in learning Chichewa.

[Assistant] Yeah. We'll talk about that when you're in the field because that was an issue in the Peace Corps. Uh, there's also a component of training usually called area studies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not well. I just don't have the brain for it, I guess. I learned a lot about languages, though, which has been a nice store of knowledge.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] For, for my work. But I didn't really learn much more than 30 or 40 vocabulary words and phrases. But I would like to add that when I got over there in Malawi, I was placed at a secondary school to teach English, and I felt really guilty about not really getting, uh, my language skills built up. But that would have required getting out into the village, because in the school setting English was the appropriate language. And I finally decided I would be doing a better job for my students to just work with them in English conversation and not have them work with me in learning Chichewa.

[Assistant] Yeah. We'll talk about that when you're in the field because that was an issue in the Peace Corps. Uh, there's also a component of training usually called area studies.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And do you recall who ran it or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And do you recall who ran it or?

[User] Uh, I recall who ran the American history and foreign policy because the guy came into our class and on the first day and he knew everybody's name from memory, that made quite an impression.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] The area studies I don't remember the personality but, um, it was the beginning of a lifelong interest in Africa. I have continued to read about Africa, African history, foreign affairs. I follow African events.

[Assistant] So it was kind of African studies and then some concentration on the colonial history of Nyasaland.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The area studies I don't remember the personality but, um, it was the beginning of a lifelong interest in Africa. I have continued to read about Africa, African history, foreign affairs. I follow African events.

[Assistant] So it was kind of African studies and then some concentration on the colonial history of Nyasaland.

[User] Colonial history and the current political goings on. There was a liberation movement and there were some key figures there. We did have a man named Malan. I may not get this right, but Eduardo Malan [Mondlane]. And he was actually from Mozambique.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which is a neighboring contiguous country. And he was a faculty member at Syracuse. But he was also on the liberation front over there. And in due course, he became a member of their new government or, or at some point he was assassinated because of his political commitment.

[Assistant] But Nyasaland must have been under a provisional transitional government that the British had decided to grant it independence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Colonial history and the current political goings on. There was a liberation movement and there were some key figures there. We did have a man named Malan. I may not get this right, but Eduardo Malan [Mondlane]. And he was actually from Mozambique.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which is a neighboring contiguous country. And he was a faculty member at Syracuse. But he was also on the liberation front over there. And in due course, he became a member of their new government or, or at some point he was assassinated because of his political commitment.

[Assistant] But Nyasaland must have been under a provisional transitional government that the British had decided to grant it independence.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So that in effect, that's what permitted the Peace Corps to come in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So that in effect, that's what permitted the Peace Corps to come in.

[User] Yeah. Peace Corps knew that the British were leaving.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And it could, uh. So we talked to the people who would be. I didn't talk to them.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Peace Corps knew that the British were leaving.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And it could, uh. So we talked to the people who would be. I didn't talk to them.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, right.

[User] The administrators talked to the Africans who would be leading the government, and they said, well, what we need most right now is more secondary school teachers because we don't have enough educated people.

[Assistant] How about, uh, whether, was there an area of training on technical studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it could, uh. So we talked to the people who would be. I didn't talk to them.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, right.

[User] The administrators talked to the Africans who would be leading the government, and they said, well, what we need most right now is more secondary school teachers because we don't have enough educated people.

[Assistant] How about, uh, whether, was there an area of training on technical studies?

[User] Yes, there was some education training from the people at the graduate school of education.

[Assistant] You had never taught before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And did?

[User] Well, I had never taught in a classroom.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I had done Sunday school teaching.

[Assistant] Right. And how did you feel about the prospect of, you know, walking into a class and becoming a teacher?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had never taught in a classroom.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I had done Sunday school teaching.

[Assistant] Right. And how did you feel about the prospect of, you know, walking into a class and becoming a teacher?

[User] Perhaps I was a little bit concerned, but I might have been an education major, but I was more interested in learning real content in college. And I never took a single education course. I avoided them in order to take content courses. But it was no, there was no issue once I got in the classroom.

[Assistant] The other big event or big thing that happens during training is the selection process and generally it includes some kind of psychological testing. You may even have been interviewed by psychiatrists.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had done Sunday school teaching.

[Assistant] Right. And how did you feel about the prospect of, you know, walking into a class and becoming a teacher?

[User] Perhaps I was a little bit concerned, but I might have been an education major, but I was more interested in learning real content in college. And I never took a single education course. I avoided them in order to take content courses. But it was no, there was no issue once I got in the classroom.

[Assistant] The other big event or big thing that happens during training is the selection process and generally it includes some kind of psychological testing. You may even have been interviewed by psychiatrists.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Do you recall that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Perhaps I was a little bit concerned, but I might have been an education major, but I was more interested in learning real content in college. And I never took a single education course. I avoided them in order to take content courses. But it was no, there was no issue once I got in the classroom.

[Assistant] The other big event or big thing that happens during training is the selection process and generally it includes some kind of psychological testing. You may even have been interviewed by psychiatrists.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Do you recall that?

[User] Yeah, sure.

[Assistant] Was it extremely stressful? I mean, how did the group handle it and how did you handle it individually?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Do you recall that?

[User] Yeah, sure.

[Assistant] Was it extremely stressful? I mean, how did the group handle it and how did you handle it individually?

[User] Everybody had an interview. I don't know. I don't know if I'd ever seen a psychiatrist before.

[Assistant] Most people don't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody had an interview. I don't know. I don't know if I'd ever seen a psychiatrist before.

[Assistant] Most people don't.

[User] You know, I mean.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And I don't know. I assumed he was Freudian. But whatever I said didn't hurt me. I know that. But a few, I think three of us were deselected.

[Assistant] So during training, would people disappear, I mean, how?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was, uh, difficult.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we felt he was difficult too. The second fellow had told the psychiatrist that he'd been in a bar room fight.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he mentioned this afterwards in the brief period between his interview and the time he was packed away and sent home. And that's all we could figure out on him. But the bigger picture was that the Peace Corps didn't want to embarrass itself overseas.

[Assistant] Right, right, oh yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he mentioned this afterwards in the brief period between his interview and the time he was packed away and sent home. And that's all we could figure out on him. But the bigger picture was that the Peace Corps didn't want to embarrass itself overseas.

[Assistant] Right, right, oh yeah.

[User] So they tried to spot problems or potential problems. And it was very hard on us emotionally to see these kids disappear and they wouldn't tell us why.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] Someone was deselected. We only could guess about that. And of course, you wondered, would you be next?

[Assistant] Yes. Did that tend to? Did the group coalesce? I mean, was there some kind of group spirit evolving, even if it was on negative grounds that, you know, if there's all this stress about selection, you kind of want to hang close to your buddies or the friends in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Someone was deselected. We only could guess about that. And of course, you wondered, would you be next?

[Assistant] Yes. Did that tend to? Did the group coalesce? I mean, was there some kind of group spirit evolving, even if it was on negative grounds that, you know, if there's all this stress about selection, you kind of want to hang close to your buddies or the friends in the group?

[User] Uh, I think there was in the group. I was more of an outlier, more of a, of an individualist. I had a smaller circle of friends, and these were usually the kids that didn't want to be over in the bar.

[Assistant] Right. Right.

[User] But it was stressful for us because nobody knew what you did to get deselected.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were part of the world, uh, the American studies, did it include world communism?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was stressful for us because nobody knew what you did to get deselected.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were part of the world, uh, the American studies, did it include world communism?

[User] Oh, sure. The Peace Corps was an anti-communist movement, if you ask me.

[Assistant] Sure. Okay.

[User] It clearly was an attempt to win goodwill in third world countries.

[Assistant] Well, did you have a sense that you were then being sent as an agent of anti-communism? Don't let me put words in your mouth.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, sure. The Peace Corps was an anti-communist movement, if you ask me.

[Assistant] Sure. Okay.

[User] It clearly was an attempt to win goodwill in third world countries.

[Assistant] Well, did you have a sense that you were then being sent as an agent of anti-communism? Don't let me put words in your mouth.

[User] Well, to some extent, yeah. Sure.

[Assistant] Okay. But you don't recall any specifics of that kind of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It clearly was an attempt to win goodwill in third world countries.

[Assistant] Well, did you have a sense that you were then being sent as an agent of anti-communism? Don't let me put words in your mouth.

[User] Well, to some extent, yeah. Sure.

[Assistant] Okay. But you don't recall any specifics of that kind of training?

[User] You know, back in those days, it would have just been part of the wallpaper.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay. Final selection comes and the group is now pared down to about how many?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then back to, uh, we left from JFK. But then it was called Idlewild International Airport.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I think they took us from Syracuse down there by bus, if I recall.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was a great day. It was early January, first day or two of January.

[Assistant] Well, let's say you've couple of days left.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I think they took us from Syracuse down there by bus, if I recall.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was a great day. It was early January, first day or two of January.

[Assistant] Well, let's say you've couple of days left.

[User] Yeah, a couple of days home and then.

[Assistant] No second thoughts? You know, mother didn't say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was a great day. It was early January, first day or two of January.

[Assistant] Well, let's say you've couple of days left.

[User] Yeah, a couple of days home and then.

[Assistant] No second thoughts? You know, mother didn't say?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You know, don't go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, a couple of days home and then.

[Assistant] No second thoughts? You know, mother didn't say?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You know, don't go.

[User] No, I was very keen to go.

[Assistant] And were you shopping then? Did you have to buy enough handkerchiefs for two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You know, don't go.

[User] No, I was very keen to go.

[Assistant] And were you shopping then? Did you have to buy enough handkerchiefs for two years?

[User] Oh yes, got a big trunk and put things in there that later we found out you could easily buy in Malawi.

[Assistant] Right. Right. So then you finally end up at Idlewild. And was it a charter flight or a regular flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, got a big trunk and put things in there that later we found out you could easily buy in Malawi.

[Assistant] Right. Right. So then you finally end up at Idlewild. And was it a charter flight or a regular flight?

[User] It was a Pan Am.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Regular flight. And we, let's see.

[Assistant] Couldn't have gone direct.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we had an overnight there.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And then, um, after that. And that was on a Comet.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] British Airways. And then on to Blantyre.

[Assistant] Right. In this, the whole process from Idlewild on. Well, at what point in the whole process did you meet or become aware of Peace Corps staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then, um, after that. And that was on a Comet.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] British Airways. And then on to Blantyre.

[Assistant] Right. In this, the whole process from Idlewild on. Well, at what point in the whole process did you meet or become aware of Peace Corps staff?

[User] Oh, well, we met Peace Corps staff in training.

[Assistant] People from Washington?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And his assistant. I don't remember the assistant's name, but he was a colorful fellow who had been a, what's called a great white hunter in East Africa.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] He was not as highly educated, but he was an adventurer who knew East Africa.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And that, no, those staff people were a presence.

[Assistant] Because there was no project in the country at the time. I mean, you were the first.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that, no, those staff people were a presence.

[Assistant] Because there was no project in the country at the time. I mean, you were the first.

[User] We were the first.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I don't think they were in Syracuse all the time, but they certainly came in. Maybe they flew on back to Malawi to work on things.

[Assistant] Did any staff members escort you there? Must have been some.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think they were in Syracuse all the time, but they certainly came in. Maybe they flew on back to Malawi to work on things.

[Assistant] Did any staff members escort you there? Must have been some.

[User] There must have been, yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Don't remember.

[Assistant] Arrived in Blantyre.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There must have been, yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Don't remember.

[Assistant] Arrived in Blantyre.

[User] Blantyre was the largest city at the time, still is. It was a commercial center. And it was about one hour's drive from the capital, which was Zomba.

[Assistant] Was there a reception when you arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don't remember.

[Assistant] Arrived in Blantyre.

[User] Blantyre was the largest city at the time, still is. It was a commercial center. And it was about one hour's drive from the capital, which was Zomba.

[Assistant] Was there a reception when you arrived?

[User] Oh. Some of this is faded, a little foggy in my memory, you know.

[Assistant] Well, that's alright.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By African standards. Right away you realize things are different in Africa.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I mean, even a paved road was something to notice. There were lots of paved roads in Blantyre, but you could get out of town and in very short order be on a dirt road.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But Soche Hill College was this teacher's training school where they housed us and fed us and gave us classes and they would take us out by bus to see this and that in Blantyre.

[Assistant] How long was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, even a paved road was something to notice. There were lots of paved roads in Blantyre, but you could get out of town and in very short order be on a dirt road.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But Soche Hill College was this teacher's training school where they housed us and fed us and gave us classes and they would take us out by bus to see this and that in Blantyre.

[Assistant] How long was it?

[User] I would say two weeks, three weeks maybe. Three and a half weeks. Most of January 1963.

[Assistant] Were you, uh, were they trying to get you to match up to the school year or a school term anyway?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, school term began late January. So they were giving us a time to acclimate to the country, to the food.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Get us comfortable walking around. And because it was unusual to be a white in Africa at the time.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Maybe not so much in Blantyre, but in the countryside you could certainly be an object of great curiosity, especially with the little children.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that was the entire group secondary teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Get us comfortable walking around. And because it was unusual to be a white in Africa at the time.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Maybe not so much in Blantyre, but in the countryside you could certainly be an object of great curiosity, especially with the little children.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that was the entire group secondary teachers?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. And at what point during the three weeks did you begin to, did you, did you meet people you'd be working with like headmasters of schools or Malawians who were teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe not so much in Blantyre, but in the countryside you could certainly be an object of great curiosity, especially with the little children.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that was the entire group secondary teachers?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Okay. And at what point during the three weeks did you begin to, did you, did you meet people you'd be working with like headmasters of schools or Malawians who were teachers?

[User] Well, we had Malawians around who were helping us with the training and more language instruction. Lots of contact with Malawians. And I must say the Malawians are lovely people and they were very courteous, respectful, friendly, interested, and grateful in what we were bringing to their country.

[Assistant] Early on, did you have any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we did not meet the people from our various secondary schools, no.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] No. The Peace Corps office was doing the placement. They told us we're working on the placement. We're taking these things into consideration. We're not taking certain other things into consideration.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And there was one, there were a lot of government schools, and there were a number, quite a number of Catholic schools, boys schools and girls schools.

[Assistant] Were they mostly boarding schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were all boarding schools.

[Assistant] Okay. Okay.

[User] And then there was this one Protestant boarding school for boys.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Called Robert Blake School at Kongwe. And they were telling us that the people there were so conservative that it might be a difficult placement, but they also told us they were not taking our religions into any consideration for this placement. Well, that would have been in keeping with the First Amendment, I imagine, and American policy. So I sort of thought, gee, that would be a nice place, that Protestant place for me. But I guess I won't, I won't go there because they're not taking religion into account. And in the end, and I only figured this out much later, I think they realized I would be comfortable there and a lot of the others would not be comfortable and would chafe.

[Assistant] Because religious studies are built into the school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Called Robert Blake School at Kongwe. And they were telling us that the people there were so conservative that it might be a difficult placement, but they also told us they were not taking our religions into any consideration for this placement. Well, that would have been in keeping with the First Amendment, I imagine, and American policy. So I sort of thought, gee, that would be a nice place, that Protestant place for me. But I guess I won't, I won't go there because they're not taking religion into account. And in the end, and I only figured this out much later, I think they realized I would be comfortable there and a lot of the others would not be comfortable and would chafe.

[Assistant] Because religious studies are built into the school.

[User] Well, religious studies was in the British curriculum.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So every school had a certain amount of Bible knowledge that was taught. But, um, it's just that more of the people, the missionaries there would have been what most people would consider to be straight laced. And I was straight laced myself. So in the end, it worked out great because I really had a wonderful relationship with those.

[Assistant] So that's where you were assigned?