[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were the first to be doing that. I don't think there, because I don't, I'm sure there were no other co-op. There were no other Peace Corps volunteers there showing us how to do this or working with that agency.

[Assistant] So what was the arrangement then, as far as living, your living allowance and so forth?

[User] The living allowance was the same for everybody, although was a lot more expensive to live in Santiago, of course, being a city. And we were supposed to find places to live, although the Peace Corps kind of helped us with this, but we kind of had to go and talk to people and interview people. And usually it was kind of like trying to find a room in somebody's house or something like that. That was the ideal. And I found this. My first living situation was actually with a widow and her son, and she had a room that she wanted to rent. But it was in kind of a pretty modern-looking high-rise building on the fourth floor and the apartment overlooked La Moneda, which is the presidential, the old presidential palace. It was the seat of government. And the one that got bombed when Allende took over. And then there was the plaza, uh, Plaza de Armas I guess. It was right in front and the changing of the guard every morning there and stuff. It was very cool to be there, you know, and I was just renting a room and but this lady was pretty, a pretty middle class lady. And it wasn't the best. I mean, it really wasn't the best situation for me, either, because I wasn't, I was really renting a room. I mean, she wasn't really that familial with me and she had a maid, you know? And I don't know, it was kind of a strange situation, but it was OK. And then the Peace Corps decided that it was too elegant. It was too nice a place.

[Assistant] Did it include meals?

[User] It did.

[Assistant] So you were dining with her?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did.

[Assistant] So you were dining with her?

[User] Yeah. So it was, well, I kind of had to eat the kitchen. I ate with the little boy sometimes when she wasn't around and that he and I formed a little bit, a little bit of a relationship. But I really was as if I was kind of a second-class citizen, which was OK, you know, I didn't. It was very hard for me to figure out, to figure that relationship out. I'd never been in any circumstance in which there was kind of a class leveling. There's more of a European idea of class in in Chile.

[Assistant] But hadn't Peace Corps advised you that, I mean, Santiago must be divided into neighborhoods of middle class, upper class, lower class? Did you have any sense that, you know, there were places that was OK to live or might be hazardous?

[User] No. Well, I guess they did say, well, you know, we're not going to put you out in, you know, in this area because this is kind of a tough area or something like that. But we just kind of, we're up to finding our own place. I remember one of my friends was in a pension just kind of in town, you know, just in a pension.

[Assistant] But at this time now you have reported to work at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, I guess they did say, well, you know, we're not going to put you out in, you know, in this area because this is kind of a tough area or something like that. But we just kind of, we're up to finding our own place. I remember one of my friends was in a pension just kind of in town, you know, just in a pension.

[Assistant] But at this time now you have reported to work at?

[User] In Instituto Cooperativa, the education cooperative. So this little organization. Yes, they had an office in downtown Santiago and we would go to that office and they did not really know what to do with us. And we kind of it was up to each of us to figure that out in some way. What, how can we do this cooperative education? I had the experience, though, of having done that internship in this television station, and it turned out that one of the very large cooperatives, it was a department store called Co-op in Part, had purchased some television time and canal, Channel 13, the University of Chile television station. University of Chile or Católica, how could I forget that? I don't know, one of the two universities. And they had purchased some time, a half an hour slot, and they wanted us to fill that, you know, and I got tapped for that just because I had set foot in a television station beforehand. And of course, we're supposed to be able to write, you know, of course.

[Assistant] Now who was calling the shots on at this point on assignment, the Chilean officials? Or was it some Peace Corps?

[User] At this point, it was the man who was the head of this ICEIT, the cooperative organization.

[Assistant] And he was Chilean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Instituto Cooperativa, the education cooperative. So this little organization. Yes, they had an office in downtown Santiago and we would go to that office and they did not really know what to do with us. And we kind of it was up to each of us to figure that out in some way. What, how can we do this cooperative education? I had the experience, though, of having done that internship in this television station, and it turned out that one of the very large cooperatives, it was a department store called Co-op in Part, had purchased some television time and canal, Channel 13, the University of Chile television station. University of Chile or Católica, how could I forget that? I don't know, one of the two universities. And they had purchased some time, a half an hour slot, and they wanted us to fill that, you know, and I got tapped for that just because I had set foot in a television station beforehand. And of course, we're supposed to be able to write, you know, of course.

[Assistant] Now who was calling the shots on at this point on assignment, the Chilean officials? Or was it some Peace Corps?

[User] At this point, it was the man who was the head of this ICEIT, the cooperative organization.

[Assistant] And he was Chilean?

[User] Yes, he was Chilean. Isidore Hill. And he and I guess whoever worked underneath him were the people who decided what to do with us. You know, how we could be useful. So I got this sort of mandate to do this television program. And I was like, whoo! It was very fascinating.

[Assistant] So it was the assignment was just you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At this point, it was the man who was the head of this ICEIT, the cooperative organization.

[Assistant] And he was Chilean?

[User] Yes, he was Chilean. Isidore Hill. And he and I guess whoever worked underneath him were the people who decided what to do with us. You know, how we could be useful. So I got this sort of mandate to do this television program. And I was like, whoo! It was very fascinating.

[Assistant] So it was the assignment was just you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And for work, did you report to the TV station or did you go through the office? And then there, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was Chilean. Isidore Hill. And he and I guess whoever worked underneath him were the people who decided what to do with us. You know, how we could be useful. So I got this sort of mandate to do this television program. And I was like, whoo! It was very fascinating.

[Assistant] So it was the assignment was just you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And for work, did you report to the TV station or did you go through the office? And then there, I mean?

[User] They kind of just said, go talk to the people at, you know, Canal Trece and tell them that, you know, you're going to be doing this. So that was, there must have I must have a meeting at which I told them, well, I'm the person assigned to do this. And how do I, who do I work with and stuff? And I was assigned to work with the director, a television director who was in charge of, I guess, the maybe public service television, what we would think of as public service television. And initially, what I did was go to the library and find every film I could find on cooperatives. I mean, the cooperative movement's very big down there already. All of their rural electricity is done through cooperatives, huge use of cooperatives as an organizing element and as a way of organizing people in small in rural areas to be able to get electricity or irrigation or water or whatever. I mean, the government was using cooperatives enormously, and I think it was really directly from the Frei administration. Let's try to use cooperatives as much as we can to organize people. And so this was a good idea in a certain way to do cooperative education as well. Of course, how many people in 1964 in Chile had television sets even? Really only really wealthy people. Certainly none of the poor little cooperative people, people in the cooperatives didn't have TV.

[Assistant] Yeah, but you were writing for them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a clear job to do. I had a clear job. Well, I made a clear job to do, you know? I mean, I decided to produce it myself.

[Assistant] Was there no Chilean who could do what you were doing?

[User] Oh, I'm sure there were many who could have done it better. Yeah, I'm sure many Chileans could have done it better. Of course, they spoke the language better. They'd have had more entree, you know? Yeah, I think they could have done certainly done it better. But they weren't free, I guess. You know what I mean? I was a volunteer. I was available to do it. Nobody had to pay my wages to produce this show. It was called La Revolución Silencio, the quiet revolution, which of course, now I realize was probably totally the wrong kind of name to give it. That was from my, you know, it should have been Up, Up, and Away with Cooperatives, something much more cheerful. But I was in my, you know, silent revolution era. So yeah, it got called. And uh, we did. I think that, you know, as my Spanish got better, I would write a script and then of course, somebody there would translate it into much better Spanish than I was able to do at that time. You can imagine my verbs were not that good yet.

[Assistant] And you were doing the initial draft.

[User] I would do the initial draft and the initial draft was certainly cued to the photographs. So whatever they put it, had to go with that. So then someone would write it in really good Spanish and then it would just get put on the air live. I'm sure it was done live. Yeah, most things were done live.

[Assistant] In the meantime, you've changed your living accommodations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would do the initial draft and the initial draft was certainly cued to the photographs. So whatever they put it, had to go with that. So then someone would write it in really good Spanish and then it would just get put on the air live. I'm sure it was done live. Yeah, most things were done live.

[Assistant] In the meantime, you've changed your living accommodations.

[User] Yeah, I don't know how many months I spent with that first living place, but the Peace Corps contacted me and said, this is a little too nice where you're staying and you have to find something less nice. And so they I mean, I don't remember how I found the next living place, which was another room. I mean, as you know, it's usually the maid's room. It was the maid's room in an apartment with a woman who lived by herself, who was kind of, interestingly, a career woman. I don't remember what she worked in, but she was friendly and, but it was not as good a part of town, you know, so that made them feel more secure.

[Assistant] Was there any political implication that you were in a building overlooking the presidential palace?

[User] Oh, you know, I never thought about that. I actually absolutely was so, you know, not even thinking in a political sense in that way. I don't think it was that so much. It's just that it was a little too nice for the image that the Peace Corps was trying to obtain.

[Assistant] And that's the way you understood it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I don't know how many months I spent with that first living place, but the Peace Corps contacted me and said, this is a little too nice where you're staying and you have to find something less nice. And so they I mean, I don't remember how I found the next living place, which was another room. I mean, as you know, it's usually the maid's room. It was the maid's room in an apartment with a woman who lived by herself, who was kind of, interestingly, a career woman. I don't remember what she worked in, but she was friendly and, but it was not as good a part of town, you know, so that made them feel more secure.

[Assistant] Was there any political implication that you were in a building overlooking the presidential palace?

[User] Oh, you know, I never thought about that. I actually absolutely was so, you know, not even thinking in a political sense in that way. I don't think it was that so much. It's just that it was a little too nice for the image that the Peace Corps was trying to obtain.

[Assistant] And that's the way you understood it.

[User] Yeah, that's how I understood it.

[Assistant] You had no argument with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you know, I never thought about that. I actually absolutely was so, you know, not even thinking in a political sense in that way. I don't think it was that so much. It's just that it was a little too nice for the image that the Peace Corps was trying to obtain.

[Assistant] And that's the way you understood it.

[User] Yeah, that's how I understood it.

[Assistant] You had no argument with that.

[User] No, I said, OK, I'm you know, that's fine with me. You know, I'll move. So I found another place and it was kind of a like a half basement kind of an apartment. Yeah, which was where I lived through a rather severe earthquake they had there. And I was, I guess, really lucky to be in the basement. I'm not even sure. But boy, there was there was a really severe earthquake while we were down there. And but ironically, the only people I think who were injured in it were people who got so scared they jumped out the window. Chileans are horrified and terribly terrified, at least at that time. They just were terrified of earthquakes because of course, there's so much more destruction. The buildings aren't built as well and they're old. They're just terrified of earthquakes. And this was a really, really. I remember some of the little ornamental knobs on the top of La Moneda were hanging off like this? It was quite destructive.

[Assistant] When was that? In your second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's how I understood it.

[Assistant] You had no argument with that.

[User] No, I said, OK, I'm you know, that's fine with me. You know, I'll move. So I found another place and it was kind of a like a half basement kind of an apartment. Yeah, which was where I lived through a rather severe earthquake they had there. And I was, I guess, really lucky to be in the basement. I'm not even sure. But boy, there was there was a really severe earthquake while we were down there. And but ironically, the only people I think who were injured in it were people who got so scared they jumped out the window. Chileans are horrified and terribly terrified, at least at that time. They just were terrified of earthquakes because of course, there's so much more destruction. The buildings aren't built as well and they're old. They're just terrified of earthquakes. And this was a really, really. I remember some of the little ornamental knobs on the top of La Moneda were hanging off like this? It was quite destructive.

[Assistant] When was that? In your second year?

[User] I'm trying to think, no, it probably would have still been within the first year. So probably '65. Like, like February, I would think it was in February of '65.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps immediately arrange communication back to your families?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I said, OK, I'm you know, that's fine with me. You know, I'll move. So I found another place and it was kind of a like a half basement kind of an apartment. Yeah, which was where I lived through a rather severe earthquake they had there. And I was, I guess, really lucky to be in the basement. I'm not even sure. But boy, there was there was a really severe earthquake while we were down there. And but ironically, the only people I think who were injured in it were people who got so scared they jumped out the window. Chileans are horrified and terribly terrified, at least at that time. They just were terrified of earthquakes because of course, there's so much more destruction. The buildings aren't built as well and they're old. They're just terrified of earthquakes. And this was a really, really. I remember some of the little ornamental knobs on the top of La Moneda were hanging off like this? It was quite destructive.

[Assistant] When was that? In your second year?

[User] I'm trying to think, no, it probably would have still been within the first year. So probably '65. Like, like February, I would think it was in February of '65.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps immediately arrange communication back to your families?

[User] Oh, what a question. I have no idea. I don't know because you know, we really had no, no communication. The only communication we had were ham operators and someone knew a ham operator.

[Assistant] There was no telephone service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm trying to think, no, it probably would have still been within the first year. So probably '65. Like, like February, I would think it was in February of '65.

[Assistant] Did Peace Corps immediately arrange communication back to your families?

[User] Oh, what a question. I have no idea. I don't know because you know, we really had no, no communication. The only communication we had were ham operators and someone knew a ham operator.

[Assistant] There was no telephone service?

[User] Well, if there was, I couldn't afford to call home. I don't remember people calling home. I really don't know. It's pretty strange because I'm sure there was that capability in '64. But we just didn't do it, you know. It's kind of interesting to think where was the communication system at that time? But I know that the one time the one time I did talk to my family was through a ham operator. Might have been twice. And we went over to this person's house and they made contact with somebody in the States. I remember it was a guy in Texas and he patched us through so we could talk to our families. It was great.

[Assistant] Was it soon after the earthquake or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, what a question. I have no idea. I don't know because you know, we really had no, no communication. The only communication we had were ham operators and someone knew a ham operator.

[Assistant] There was no telephone service?

[User] Well, if there was, I couldn't afford to call home. I don't remember people calling home. I really don't know. It's pretty strange because I'm sure there was that capability in '64. But we just didn't do it, you know. It's kind of interesting to think where was the communication system at that time? But I know that the one time the one time I did talk to my family was through a ham operator. Might have been twice. And we went over to this person's house and they made contact with somebody in the States. I remember it was a guy in Texas and he patched us through so we could talk to our families. It was great.

[Assistant] Was it soon after the earthquake or not?

[User] No, I don't think it's totally unrelated to the earthquake, and I have no idea. Isn't that interesting? Since nobody was injured in it of our Peace Corps group, you know, I guess we just thought, OK, that's done. We have no idea if people back home are going, oh my god, are they alive? Which I suppose they could have contacted the Peace Corps, you know, national Peace Corps, you know, are they OK? And I think that other Peace Corps volunteers were more attuned to the idea that they could make contact somehow with United States? I wasn't. I would just write letters.

[Assistant] The earthquake, but during your first year, you settled into working at the TV station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, if there was, I couldn't afford to call home. I don't remember people calling home. I really don't know. It's pretty strange because I'm sure there was that capability in '64. But we just didn't do it, you know. It's kind of interesting to think where was the communication system at that time? But I know that the one time the one time I did talk to my family was through a ham operator. Might have been twice. And we went over to this person's house and they made contact with somebody in the States. I remember it was a guy in Texas and he patched us through so we could talk to our families. It was great.

[Assistant] Was it soon after the earthquake or not?

[User] No, I don't think it's totally unrelated to the earthquake, and I have no idea. Isn't that interesting? Since nobody was injured in it of our Peace Corps group, you know, I guess we just thought, OK, that's done. We have no idea if people back home are going, oh my god, are they alive? Which I suppose they could have contacted the Peace Corps, you know, national Peace Corps, you know, are they OK? And I think that other Peace Corps volunteers were more attuned to the idea that they could make contact somehow with United States? I wasn't. I would just write letters.

[Assistant] The earthquake, but during your first year, you settled into working at the TV station?

[User] Yeah. Oh, and then there was a wonderful piece of luck. The Peace Corps camera was stolen. The 16-millimeter camera. And so I by default, got the film from the Peace Corps, all this film they had, because they couldn't afford to buy a new camera right now. So they had this whole bunch of film and they gave me the film. And now my show had movement and we could go out and shoot film, silent film with voiceover, but much better than still pictures.

[Assistant] Black and white or color?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I actually would talk to other volunteers and find out about what kinds of projects they were working on. It really was. And you know, it's interesting to me. The cooperative education organization was not the source of my leads about these different, credit unions, which is, there's different cooperatives, which I now find very strange. You know, they really should have been, that should have been the way that I connected with the different cooperatives. But I think, you know, once they gave me the project, I just went with it and it just hardly dawned on me to go back and say. I don't even know if they noticed.

[Assistant] You weren't looking at bigger circles, you know, had a very specific.

[User] I was very specific and I didn't, you know, I didn't try. It's kind of part of personally where I was at, that I just didn't really think to network out and try to make it bigger in any way. You know, I just was nose to the ground saying, oh, I've got another show next week I've got to write.

[Assistant] Coming on to the end of the first year, was there a gathering of the group and a sort of conference and medical work?

[User] Yes, there was. That was a wonderful conference. We were so glad to see each other.

[Assistant] Were you sober?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very specific and I didn't, you know, I didn't try. It's kind of part of personally where I was at, that I just didn't really think to network out and try to make it bigger in any way. You know, I just was nose to the ground saying, oh, I've got another show next week I've got to write.

[Assistant] Coming on to the end of the first year, was there a gathering of the group and a sort of conference and medical work?

[User] Yes, there was. That was a wonderful conference. We were so glad to see each other.

[Assistant] Were you sober?

[User] Yeah. Oh yeah. We were a lot more sober and people were. It was, though, like seeing your family after not having seen them for all that time. It was our family. And I just remember it being a really wonderful to see everybody hearing all these stories from people because it was some people, we saw them when we got there, we saw them at that middle conference and we saw them at the end maybe, maybe, probably not. I don't even remember there being. There must have been, but I don't remember there being a final get together of the group at the end of it.

[Assistant] You were in touch with more of the group because of the work you would do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was. That was a wonderful conference. We were so glad to see each other.

[Assistant] Were you sober?

[User] Yeah. Oh yeah. We were a lot more sober and people were. It was, though, like seeing your family after not having seen them for all that time. It was our family. And I just remember it being a really wonderful to see everybody hearing all these stories from people because it was some people, we saw them when we got there, we saw them at that middle conference and we saw them at the end maybe, maybe, probably not. I don't even remember there being. There must have been, but I don't remember there being a final get together of the group at the end of it.

[Assistant] You were in touch with more of the group because of the work you would do.

[User] Yeah, I really was. And then because when people came in to Santiago. My third place I lived, I lived with another volunteer. We got an apartment. Now I don't know why that was OK, but it was OK. And the apartment was pretty centrally located in Santiago. And people would come into town and they'd take a bath at our house and, you know, and so we saw many of the volunteers as they came in.

[Assistant] Right. At the end of the first year, the conference, did you have any sense of oh, looking ahead, looking back, I mean, what was your feeling contemplating a second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I really was. And then because when people came in to Santiago. My third place I lived, I lived with another volunteer. We got an apartment. Now I don't know why that was OK, but it was OK. And the apartment was pretty centrally located in Santiago. And people would come into town and they'd take a bath at our house and, you know, and so we saw many of the volunteers as they came in.

[Assistant] Right. At the end of the first year, the conference, did you have any sense of oh, looking ahead, looking back, I mean, what was your feeling contemplating a second year?

[User] Well, my own project, of course, was rolling along, so I was feeling fine about my work. There were many people in the group who were pretty unhappy. A lot of the guys who had been stationed in the Santiago area were very unhappy and either before or right at that point, they what they took it upon themselves to find another project and.

[Assistant] Tape three.

[User] So I was saying that several of the other volunteers had decided that they wanted to be out in the Campo. They wanted to go, to leave Santiago, and so they got their own projects and went or went down south or somehow managed to get a different project.

[Assistant] But you had no sense of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my own project, of course, was rolling along, so I was feeling fine about my work. There were many people in the group who were pretty unhappy. A lot of the guys who had been stationed in the Santiago area were very unhappy and either before or right at that point, they what they took it upon themselves to find another project and.

[Assistant] Tape three.

[User] So I was saying that several of the other volunteers had decided that they wanted to be out in the Campo. They wanted to go, to leave Santiago, and so they got their own projects and went or went down south or somehow managed to get a different project.

[Assistant] But you had no sense of that.

[User] I didn't need to. I really was so busy doing it, and it seemed to be getting better and better, you know? I mean, I felt like I was getting better, certainly at writing the scripts. And we were now, you know, we had the film and we were able to film and it was really felt like we were turning out some better programing.

[Assistant] Was your language improving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was saying that several of the other volunteers had decided that they wanted to be out in the Campo. They wanted to go, to leave Santiago, and so they got their own projects and went or went down south or somehow managed to get a different project.

[Assistant] But you had no sense of that.

[User] I didn't need to. I really was so busy doing it, and it seemed to be getting better and better, you know? I mean, I felt like I was getting better, certainly at writing the scripts. And we were now, you know, we had the film and we were able to film and it was really felt like we were turning out some better programing.

[Assistant] Was your language improving?

[User] My language was improving a lot.

[Assistant] In doing this work? To whom were you accountable? I mean, where do you get the feedback as to whether it was of any value, whether anyone was looking, you know, that sort of thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't need to. I really was so busy doing it, and it seemed to be getting better and better, you know? I mean, I felt like I was getting better, certainly at writing the scripts. And we were now, you know, we had the film and we were able to film and it was really felt like we were turning out some better programing.

[Assistant] Was your language improving?

[User] My language was improving a lot.

[Assistant] In doing this work? To whom were you accountable? I mean, where do you get the feedback as to whether it was of any value, whether anyone was looking, you know, that sort of thing?

[User] You know, that is interesting because really, it should have been our rep at that point should have been the person who would have given me a sense of, I don't know, who would have looked at the project and said, well, I guess that's OK. Or the Institute of Cooperative Education.

[Assistant] Right. Or your immediate boss at the TV station?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they did not caution me in that way. They did help to smooth it over, but they really didn't. They really didn't say, Jesus, watch what you do, you know? And even if they did, you know, how do you know when you're doing something? It didn't seem that revolutionary to me.

[Assistant] What was this in the first or second year?

[User] This was in the second year. So this was like, you know, we're getting much better in our programing by then.

[Assistant] From the left wing, from the radical politicians. Were there criticisms in the paper of the Peace Corps accusations of being CIA?

[User] Or, you know, I don't remember seeing those kinds of stories in the paper, but there are certainly it was common to have people say that to us. It was common to have when you were met with people, students or people of our own age, have people you know and have people say, oh, you know, well, who knows if you're CIA. And you know, we totally trusted each other, had no belief at all that our group had any CIA people and it might have been foolish. I have no idea.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, how do you prove your innocence?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Sure. And, you know, watching other people doing their part? I don't know. We were. I just felt that, you know, of course, anybody who was CIA would certainly have looked just as, as, you know, dedicated as I did. But in my heart, I truly couldn't believe that about any of my fellow Chile XIII group, right? And we were down there, you know, when Johnson sent troops into the Dominican Republic. So that would be '65, I think that was when that happened. And boy, they did not like that in Chile. And you know, Chileans, the students especially are very active, very political. When we got down to that country after that election, you know, a month or so after the election, the entire country was painted by Andean Frei. I mean, everywhere you looked, everywhere you look, there was still the vestiges of that campaign. It was really hot.

And many more people are involved and even poor people will be discussing, you know, it's not like they go, oh, well, it doesn't matter to me. I'm poor. Everyone was involved in politics. So you know, when that happened, they were burning the American flag out in the park. You know, it was very shocking to me.

[Assistant] At any point, did you feel threatened?

[User] Only that one day when they were burning the American flag out in the park. We like stayed in the local little restaurant where we spent a lot of time. We just stayed there.

[Assistant] Did anyone ever confront you, any Chilean person, confront you?

[User] Not, not directly. No. I mean, we'd get into wild discussions with people sometimes and, you know.

[Assistant] More barroom discussions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Only that one day when they were burning the American flag out in the park. We like stayed in the local little restaurant where we spent a lot of time. We just stayed there.

[Assistant] Did anyone ever confront you, any Chilean person, confront you?

[User] Not, not directly. No. I mean, we'd get into wild discussions with people sometimes and, you know.

[Assistant] More barroom discussions.

[User] Yeah, more that kind of stuff. No one ever was threatening in any way.

[Assistant] On that score through the first year, did you work a five day a week and then have weekends free?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not, not directly. No. I mean, we'd get into wild discussions with people sometimes and, you know.

[Assistant] More barroom discussions.

[User] Yeah, more that kind of stuff. No one ever was threatening in any way.

[Assistant] On that score through the first year, did you work a five day a week and then have weekends free?

[User] Yeah, we were listed. It was like that if I was a little bit different because if I was trying to write a script, sometimes I just had to stay at it till I got it done. And it was hard writing in Spanish and it didn't ever really get good, you know? But most people basically would work, you know, would work. And then on the weekends, they were often would go visit or go do stuff.

[Assistant] Was there any pressure from the Peace Corps office to be, you know, the 24-hour volunteer and to be doing other things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, more that kind of stuff. No one ever was threatening in any way.

[Assistant] On that score through the first year, did you work a five day a week and then have weekends free?

[User] Yeah, we were listed. It was like that if I was a little bit different because if I was trying to write a script, sometimes I just had to stay at it till I got it done. And it was hard writing in Spanish and it didn't ever really get good, you know? But most people basically would work, you know, would work. And then on the weekends, they were often would go visit or go do stuff.

[Assistant] Was there any pressure from the Peace Corps office to be, you know, the 24-hour volunteer and to be doing other things?

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you were pretty much free, you did your job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] So you were pretty much free, you did your job.

[User] And I did my job and I cut every, you know, to tell you the truth. I mean, I do not remember anybody paying any attention to my project, except for me really. Well, nobody. And the one time that that thing happened with the empleiades, but that was it. You know, I mean, I don't remember a Peace Corps rep coming and talking to me about it. I don't remember anybody reviewing it. I just don't remember any interest at all, which was fine with me. And even at the cooperative education organization was the more likely, you know, they were the ones you would think would be saying, how's it going? You know, and would have been upset about the empleiades. I think that's why I left town was I don't want to talk to them till they cooled down, you know, because they were probably getting the heat.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And but they didn't really ever give me a hard time about it, but they didn't say much of anything. They were kind of happy that I wasn't coming back to them and saying, you're not doing a good job here of overseeing me or, you know, I mean, they were just glad to have one less person who was saying, I'm not happy. Because the other volunteers often I think there were individuals felt just like, this is useless what I'm doing here. And that's why several of our groups, of course, did go down and find another project at about the midpoint.

[Assistant] Did, if any, did many go home before the end of the service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I did a show about it. Yep, I interviewed everybody. We shot film and we did a show about it, you know? And it really was to illustrate this problem of the absentee landlords and the fact that people are oppressed by this. There's no reason in the world for these people not to be able to farm this land. And make the profit from it for this guy who's off in France.

[Assistant] And you still didn't know the demographics of the TV audience?

[User] No clue.

[Assistant] Over the assumption that if you could afford a TV set, you were not a campesino, you know.

[User] Right. And that, you know, bars didn't have them. Meeting places necessarily have a TV.

[Assistant] You didn't have a situation where a little village had one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No clue.

[Assistant] Over the assumption that if you could afford a TV set, you were not a campesino, you know.

[User] Right. And that, you know, bars didn't have them. Meeting places necessarily have a TV.

[Assistant] You didn't have a situation where a little village had one.

[User] I doubt it. You know, now in Santiago, community organizations might have had access to a TV, but only for soccer games would be my guess. You know, they weren't watching it at six o'clock in the evening. So really, it didn't have access to the poor people, but so my audience, if I had even given this a thought, which I didn't, my audience was the more wealthy people. And the maids. At least one.

[Assistant]
At least one.

Going through the second year, how was it different than the first?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And that, you know, bars didn't have them. Meeting places necessarily have a TV.

[Assistant] You didn't have a situation where a little village had one.

[User] I doubt it. You know, now in Santiago, community organizations might have had access to a TV, but only for soccer games would be my guess. You know, they weren't watching it at six o'clock in the evening. So really, it didn't have access to the poor people, but so my audience, if I had even given this a thought, which I didn't, my audience was the more wealthy people. And the maids. At least one.

[Assistant]
At least one.

Going through the second year, how was it different than the first?

[User] I don't know. I think we did some more interesting projects. We went further TV projects. A lot of the. I was thinking my roommate was doing a project. She was doing a project really out in one of the really poor areas of town. And this was some kind of a community development I know she had made. I had a little cooperative of making jams and selling them at one point earlier on. But this was a more involved kind of a community development project. She was very good at this stuff. She's still doing it, basically. And something that she did got her in trouble with the Peace Corps and she left early. Well, she left about only about two or three months early. I mean, it was just in the spring, you know, but things began, you know, there was kind of a ripening effect. You reached a point where you were getting pretty good at what you were doing, and I know it was really hard to leave in most cases. But there also was a sense of an ending coming.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think things began to sort of slow down. My own Mario Baeza, who I worked with, was quite an amazing guy, had gotten a scholarship to go and study independent film production in England. And so he left about spring, April or something like that. And then I was working just with the, I'm sure, with another director who I don't remember who it could have been. In the last few months it was Leida, who was the photographer. And it didn't have the same feeling. So it wasn't, you know, it's like the team got broken up.

[Assistant] But coming toward the end of the second year. Sometimes people want to say, well, to have a monument they've left behind or to have some goal they've achieved in doing the two years. Did you hope that you would be replaced or that? I don't know what.

[User] Yeah, well, that was all kind of up to the Institute of Cooperative Education. And they, although they had a nice dinner for us, nice despedida, you know, nice going off and stuff. They had shown so little interest in my project that they did not have. I did not have a sense anyone would come and take over that co-op and part who had originally given the money or the time. You know, the television time, maybe wasn't going to renew it, but there wasn't any sense of ongoing this for my project.

[Assistant] And did you feel badly that it wasn't going to continue or that another volunteer wasn't going to take it over?

[User] I didn't, actually, because I felt like it was kind of a piece of itself. You know that it that it fell into that time period. I did it while I could, and if they wanted to continue doing something about cooperatives, you know, they would probably work that out with the television station, you know, and have them produce it because I'd broken the ice in getting it going.

[Assistant] Had most of your socializing been with fellow volunteers or did you begin to have Chilean friends where you know, you could joke you could play with words, you know, give inside personal comments and opinions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't, actually, because I felt like it was kind of a piece of itself. You know that it that it fell into that time period. I did it while I could, and if they wanted to continue doing something about cooperatives, you know, they would probably work that out with the television station, you know, and have them produce it because I'd broken the ice in getting it going.

[Assistant] Had most of your socializing been with fellow volunteers or did you begin to have Chilean friends where you know, you could joke you could play with words, you know, give inside personal comments and opinions?

[User] Yeah, mostly it was with the people I worked with at the TV station, you know, and they would invite, you know, invite us out or we would go out to dinner. Mario had a family, but he often would organize little things. We'd all go out and drink and stuff. We didn't usually spend time with his family. I mean, there was kind of a line there, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, but it was mostly that group and then other volunteers and their Chilean counterparts, we would often get together as a group. So it was kind of an interesting mixing of, you know. I spent most of my certainly most of my work time with these, the people of the TV station or with Mario or with the cameraman, you know, but it was that was more of a working relationship, you know. So the people that I knew secondary to that really were mostly Peace Corps volunteers and then their secondary Chilean friends.

[Assistant] Yeah. As the two years comes to an end, where are you? What are you doing? What is your future?

[User] Yeah, that was strange. Well, I had decided to apply to graduate schools, which most of us had done. It was kind of like you had to have a haven to come home to.

[Assistant] Now this was '66?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that was strange. Well, I had decided to apply to graduate schools, which most of us had done. It was kind of like you had to have a haven to come home to.

[Assistant] Now this was '66?

[User] '66 and I had decided I wanted to study television and film and educational television. I was interested in educational television. So I'd gotten information from the various universities that had film and TV master's degrees. And the two main ones I remember were USC and Syracuse, and USC required some kind of a big essay. I ended up at Syracuse by default. I mean, it was like, I can't do a bigger essay, I'm doing a show here, you don't have time for this. I remember taking the, uh, one of the Millers. Yeah, the graduate record exam on the Miller Analogies Test. And I took those, if you can believe this, when I was on vacation in Lima, Peru. Happened to land with when they were giving it in a place where I could take it. And there you are. You know, there I am at the peak of my Spanish ability when I was actually thinking in Spanish trying to go, this is to that as that is to that in English. I was like, this is all wrong! I'm not thinking like that right now. You know, I couldn't. I don't even have any idea what I scored on that. But Syracuse was kind enough, probably to forego it. Syracuse University master's program in TV and radio had really made a commitment to take Peace Corps volunteers in, so there were about five Peace Corps volunteers in a group of, I don't know, 25 in the program.

[Assistant] That was the peak of that.

[User] Yeah, it was very cool because believe me, I needed help when I got back in the country. The culture shock was just like, you know, it was hard. That's very hard.

[Assistant] Leaving Chile, were there lots of regrets or it was time to move on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was very cool because believe me, I needed help when I got back in the country. The culture shock was just like, you know, it was hard. That's very hard.

[Assistant] Leaving Chile, were there lots of regrets or it was time to move on?

[User] Oh yeah. You know, it is interesting, I think for a lot of people that had different kinds of projects than I have. Mine was kind of like, OK, well, that's done, you know, and nobody was taking it over and it was like, goodbye, you know, I did my job. But for a lot of people, I think that had ongoing projects, it was much harder. For me, it was just like, well, this period's done, like graduating from school. It was like to me, it was sort of like, OK, I'm done here. And I didn't, you know, I remember Lyndon Johnson sent us all letters inviting us to, uh, to come on for another tour of duty to do American Samoa. They were opening a project in American Samoa, and I remember that specifically. Sent a letter to everybody saying you did a great job and would you consider doing it for longer? And we're opening this project in American Samoa. But I really was not ready to start another year.

[Assistant] You were ready to move on.

[User] I was ready to move on, I guess.

[Assistant] You didn't leave like feeling you had been you were being wrenched from Chile, where, you know, it was such a vital experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah. You know, it is interesting, I think for a lot of people that had different kinds of projects than I have. Mine was kind of like, OK, well, that's done, you know, and nobody was taking it over and it was like, goodbye, you know, I did my job. But for a lot of people, I think that had ongoing projects, it was much harder. For me, it was just like, well, this period's done, like graduating from school. It was like to me, it was sort of like, OK, I'm done here. And I didn't, you know, I remember Lyndon Johnson sent us all letters inviting us to, uh, to come on for another tour of duty to do American Samoa. They were opening a project in American Samoa, and I remember that specifically. Sent a letter to everybody saying you did a great job and would you consider doing it for longer? And we're opening this project in American Samoa. But I really was not ready to start another year.

[Assistant] You were ready to move on.

[User] I was ready to move on, I guess.

[Assistant] You didn't leave like feeling you had been you were being wrenched from Chile, where, you know, it was such a vital experience.

[User] No, I mean, it was a vital experience, but it didn't feel like that. It felt, it did feel finished and I felt ready to go.

[Assistant] What was the effect of the experience on you? How would you evaluate that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, all summer. We left in June and we got home in like the third week in August. So it took all summer.

[Assistant] So now I mean, obvious change in your life. You were comfortable world traveler.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, when you describe the itinerary, it's in and out of all these countries.

[User] In fact, so comfortable that I would just like hardly even would plan ahead. You know, it's like, well, we'll just go take the bus, you know.

[Assistant] Well in the '60s, it was possible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, when you describe the itinerary, it's in and out of all these countries.

[User] In fact, so comfortable that I would just like hardly even would plan ahead. You know, it's like, well, we'll just go take the bus, you know.

[Assistant] Well in the '60s, it was possible.

[User] Yes, it was. And there was a, I mean, I did have a sense of physical freedom, I could go wherever I needed to, and I could get there somehow and not worried about, not thinking about money much because.

[Assistant] So you really felt that it in some way the Peace Corps in the years that freed you from Reno.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, so comfortable that I would just like hardly even would plan ahead. You know, it's like, well, we'll just go take the bus, you know.

[Assistant] Well in the '60s, it was possible.

[User] Yes, it was. And there was a, I mean, I did have a sense of physical freedom, I could go wherever I needed to, and I could get there somehow and not worried about, not thinking about money much because.

[Assistant] So you really felt that it in some way the Peace Corps in the years that freed you from Reno.

[User] It freed me from being from living a very, a very enclosed life, a very isolated life, which was what my, you know, because we were poor and because it lived in this very isolated city in a lot of ways, very different than the rest of the world in a certain way. And it was a wonderful thing that I left and became, you know, my eyes were open to possibilities and to my own possibilities. I mean, the experience of producing that show had given me a lot of confidence and a sense of I still wanted to do Peace Corps kind of work. I still wanted to come back and do educational TV and eventually be able to go down to South America. Because one of the problems, of course, in all South American countries, certainly in Chile, is that they can't train teachers fast enough to keep up with the population. I mean, they cannot train teachers fast enough and they don't have enough money to really disseminate them and pay for them. And people aren't being educated because of that, you know? So I always thought ETV, education on TV, was what I thought was going to save the world. And of course, it wasn't. It's computers. It's computers. When computers came, I went, that's it. Yeah, that's it. Because ETV is not interactive enough and you can't, it's too clumsy, you know? Sure, you can have a teacher up there teaching, but you can't talk to that teacher and the teacher can't talk to you.

[Assistant] And so you went to Syracuse.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to Syracuse, got a TV radio film degree. It was a year- long master's. And then not knowing what else do with myself, I joined, followed my other fellow Peace Corps volunteers there had joined something called Teacher Corps. I think this was also a draft dodging because now things were really hot. This was '68, '67. Things were really getting hot and Teacher Corps, I think, kept you out. You were helping the school system and it was supposed to be able to use media in the school. So you we were supposed to be able to help the New York school system, use media in the schools. And we got some training and we got some teaching credits in the summer.

[Assistant] Where were you?

[User] In New York City.

[Assistant] Oh, and where'd you live?

[User] I lived with a roommate from Syracuse, a woman from Syracuse who is a New Yorker. Thank God, because New York was like, New York was not Santiago. It was really big. But she knew her way around, got us an apartment and stuff, so I was living with her. But I then another strike, teacher strike, the first New York teacher strike. Well, so now I have to support myself. I end up taking a substitute teaching job in Harlem at an all-boys junior high school, which was really hell. I didn't have any experience as a teacher. I should never have been there and it taught me that lesson. You know, you really do, good intentions are not it. You have to have something to offer.

[Assistant] Was it 139?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In New York City.

[Assistant] Oh, and where'd you live?

[User] I lived with a roommate from Syracuse, a woman from Syracuse who is a New Yorker. Thank God, because New York was like, New York was not Santiago. It was really big. But she knew her way around, got us an apartment and stuff, so I was living with her. But I then another strike, teacher strike, the first New York teacher strike. Well, so now I have to support myself. I end up taking a substitute teaching job in Harlem at an all-boys junior high school, which was really hell. I didn't have any experience as a teacher. I should never have been there and it taught me that lesson. You know, you really do, good intentions are not it. You have to have something to offer.

[Assistant] Was it 139?

[User] God, it could have been. Frederick Douglass Junior High School.

[Assistant] I'll tell you about it later.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] God, it could have been. Frederick Douglass Junior High School.

[Assistant] I'll tell you about it later.

[User] Oh, you are kidding me! So Frederick Douglass Junior High School, all boys, up the down staircase. It was just an amazing experience. But so I didn't last very long. It lasted about a half a year. And then I started working, finding different jobs in television or something associated with education and television for a couple and finally got a job with American Foundation for the Blind doing TV and radio spots. And you know, I went along through my career trying to get into educational television, but eventually ending up in in commercial television, doing on air promotion and talk shows and stuff like that. I had one more television experience was with the Philadelphia detention center. So the jail but detention center, meaning they haven't been given their sentence yet, haven't been sentenced to jail. And there was that little closed circuit TV. The experience of my life. Because even though I was prepared for that and I knew what I wanted to do is very difficult working with inmates, it's very difficult working with people in jails. And it was emotionally harder than I could stand. So, you know, after that sort of it wasn't as if my Peace Corps zeal left me, but I really was more and more interested in television. [dog barking] Let me go turn this dog off.

[Assistant] Philadelphia. Oh yeah.

[User] So that detention center experience really well, that almost turned me into a non-do-gooder. That was tough. But so I sort of went into doing commercial television and then just my began, you know, uh, I was married then. I went and had kids and did all of that.

[Assistant] Where did you live? For the most part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that detention center experience really well, that almost turned me into a non-do-gooder. That was tough. But so I sort of went into doing commercial television and then just my began, you know, uh, I was married then. I went and had kids and did all of that.

[Assistant] Where did you live? For the most part?

[User] Let's see. On the East Coast for a long time.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I was in, uh, well, I met my husband when I was still living in New York, working for the American Foundation for the Blind. And then I went to Pittsburgh because that's where he got a job. And but I didn't know whether we were marriage material yet. So I went and worked at the University of Pittsburgh Communication Center. That was really good. That was educational TV, and that was a good gig. I mean, we were doing pretty nice stuff and it was ETV and all that stuff. And then we went to New York again, and then we went to Philadelphia. That's where I did the detention center. New York, Philadelphia, Boston. That was the live talk show. Now that was fun. That was exciting. I had a lot of fun doing that. And then and then we moved to San Francisco and I got pregnant and had kids and sort of took a ten year hiatus from any of that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Looking through that work career, and I assume you had a second career when the children were grown.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see. On the East Coast for a long time.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I was in, uh, well, I met my husband when I was still living in New York, working for the American Foundation for the Blind. And then I went to Pittsburgh because that's where he got a job. And but I didn't know whether we were marriage material yet. So I went and worked at the University of Pittsburgh Communication Center. That was really good. That was educational TV, and that was a good gig. I mean, we were doing pretty nice stuff and it was ETV and all that stuff. And then we went to New York again, and then we went to Philadelphia. That's where I did the detention center. New York, Philadelphia, Boston. That was the live talk show. Now that was fun. That was exciting. I had a lot of fun doing that. And then and then we moved to San Francisco and I got pregnant and had kids and sort of took a ten year hiatus from any of that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Looking through that work career, and I assume you had a second career when the children were grown.

[User] Yeah, now I'm doing marriage and family therapy.

[Assistant] Ok. What was the effect of having been in the Peace Corps on you or on your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, quite a bit, from a security perspective. When I first got here, I almost kind of laugh about it, because we were very open. You could go anywhere. I can remember going over to Mission Control—what is now the old Mission Control—and just sitting down at the consoles. Just walk in the building and sat down and pretend like I was there. There was absolutely no security that I can think of, besides your own badge. Your badge basically got you in anywhere, including this facility here in 16.\n\n When the DoD came in with the DoD payloads, we had to do a lot of upgrades, security-related upgrades, to the facility: routing of certain wires and access doors, cipher locks on everything, and processes to control data so that it’s not uncontrolled. That was a fair amount of work that went on in the eighties to support that. Clearances to work certain things. So there was a lot of restricted access. If you walk around this building, you’ll see in the hallways what looks like a big sewer pipe. Well that was associated with routing out wires—so that from a security perspective—to meet the needs of the DoD with regards to the routing of data. The control center that I was working on, they created a secure conference room that had special shieldings, that they could have private conversations, and the people wouldn’t be listening in, that kind of thing. It was a fair amount of work, and it was very disruptive, but you did what you had to do. A lot of that’s still in place today.

[Assistant] Oh, it still remains?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But you don’t use most of that?

[User] Like I said all the access doors and stuff. Obviously the data itself is not DoD data anymore, so you don’t have to worry about the actual data itself. But a lot of the processes and the modification of the facility, modification of how the wiring is routed and stuff like that, it’s still as it was, because it doesn’t make sense to undo.

[Assistant] Right. Has the facility been modified in any other way since the Space Shuttle began flying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But you don’t use most of that?

[User] Like I said all the access doors and stuff. Obviously the data itself is not DoD data anymore, so you don’t have to worry about the actual data itself. But a lot of the processes and the modification of the facility, modification of how the wiring is routed and stuff like that, it’s still as it was, because it doesn’t make sense to undo.

[Assistant] Right. Has the facility been modified in any other way since the Space Shuttle began flying?

[User] That’s interesting. That would be a good question for Don. There’s been modifications of sorts. For instance, the control center that I talked about, the original one was downstairs on the first floor; and the one I worked on, we moved it to the second floor; and then there’s been a third upgrade in this time period, which is just down the hall. So the function is the same, but they have upgraded the support hardware. Some of it was very old, so you have to upgrade these systems as needed. This is like the lab support hardware. So I’m sure they’ve done a number of those types of upgrades over the years.\n\n The Shuttle piece, the core piece of the lab, is pretty much the same. If there was an upgrade to an avionics box, black box, over the years; they would have got it here, too. Those kind of modifications to keep it current to the vehicle. A big one they did was the glass cockpit. When they converted to essentially the LCD [Liquid Crystal Display] screens that they currently have, they upgraded all the vehicles, obviously, and then they upgraded this facility. But it still, just in a broad sense, in my mind, when I walk through it, it’s very similar to what we had 30 years ago.

[Assistant] Would you give us a sense of the building itself, the different wings and what’s contained in Building 16?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the one I was just talking about.

[Assistant] That’s the one you were telling us about?

[User] That’s just the one I was talking about.

[Assistant] Just wanted to make sure.

[User] Yes, that is it. I don’t have any good history of that facility. Scott Woodard probably would be a good one to talk to, also.

[Assistant] You’ve talked to us a lot about the big rig. That’s where the wires are and things. Is there anything else that we should know about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s just the one I was talking about.

[Assistant] Just wanted to make sure.

[User] Yes, that is it. I don’t have any good history of that facility. Scott Woodard probably would be a good one to talk to, also.

[Assistant] You’ve talked to us a lot about the big rig. That’s where the wires are and things. Is there anything else that we should know about that?

[User] I don’t think so, actually. I should mention, analogous to the power lab, we have the JAEL. That’s over here in 16. In my mind, it’s kind of a mini version of the SAIL. What does that stand for? JSC Avionics [Engineering] Lab, I believe. That facility does some specialized testing on GPCs, MEDS [Multifunction Electronic Display System, glass] cockpit, kind of pre-work prior to the Shuttle SAIL lab, and kind of augments that test capability. But it’s analogous to the same kind of test function, just a smaller version. SAIL, to me, is the primary facility.

[Assistant] You mentioned the simulators before, but is there anything we should know about the High-Fidelity Engineering Simulator or the Asset Entry Shuttle Engineering Simulator?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The biggest thing, I touched on already, at least for us, has been the amount of Engineering Directorate oversight in the middle of operating the facility. When I first came in, we were heavily involved. NASA’s civil servants were heavily involved in the development and operation of the facility. What’s happened over the years is the number of civil servants involved in the actual facility is very minimal. Over the years, it went down to one person, Bill [William F.] Ritz, one EA person, and then that eventually was then eliminated. So as far as I know, there’s really no civil servants in the day-to-day operations. It’s just the program office as a customer deals with it. The amount of civil servant oversight has just been drastically reduced. USA does a great job running the facility, but that’s a big difference in what’s happened in the last 30 years. Like I said, it was an entire division, the division of civil servants, that ran the facility.

[Assistant] Did they then become contractors and work for USA?

[User] Well, at that time, we had Lockheed. They were the engineering support contractor at that time. When we did shift, a lot of them did shift over to USA from Lockheed. But the civil servants pretty much went off and did other things, just like myself. Just scattered into different jobs, primarily with, say, Space Station. That’s what really drew me away from the facility, was the emergence of Station. I worked that a number of years.

[Assistant] You mentioned that the big rig has a tail number. What is that tail number?

[User] I think it’s OV [Orbiter Vehicle-095]. Yes, I’m pretty sure that’s right. You can confirm that with Don.

[Assistant] We’ll have a chance to go through it, and you’ll also get a chance to edit your transcript, so don’t feel like this is your last opportunity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at that time, we had Lockheed. They were the engineering support contractor at that time. When we did shift, a lot of them did shift over to USA from Lockheed. But the civil servants pretty much went off and did other things, just like myself. Just scattered into different jobs, primarily with, say, Space Station. That’s what really drew me away from the facility, was the emergence of Station. I worked that a number of years.

[Assistant] You mentioned that the big rig has a tail number. What is that tail number?

[User] I think it’s OV [Orbiter Vehicle-095]. Yes, I’m pretty sure that’s right. You can confirm that with Don.

[Assistant] We’ll have a chance to go through it, and you’ll also get a chance to edit your transcript, so don’t feel like this is your last opportunity.

[User] Sure, not a bit. Cool.

[Assistant] I think you’ve answered most the questions that we have. You’ve given us a number of names of people that we should talk to. Is there anyone else, in your mind, that we should speak with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, not a bit. Cool.

[Assistant] I think you’ve answered most the questions that we have. You’ve given us a number of names of people that we should talk to. Is there anyone else, in your mind, that we should speak with?

[User] Well, Don is good, and then Irv. Irv Burtzlaff, I think, would love to talk about the early days of the facility. I would have said Bill Ritz, but he passed away recently. But Irv, he might even have some information, written information, that might be good. This document here does provide some background, a little bit of background, if you want to take away and read. It’s kind of built in the days of typewriters.

[Assistant] That’s okay.

[User] It does give some history, some background description of the facility. So when you’re trying to write what this facility does, this would be a good source of information, and feel free to borrow this.

[Assistant] Great. Absolutely. We will.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Don is good, and then Irv. Irv Burtzlaff, I think, would love to talk about the early days of the facility. I would have said Bill Ritz, but he passed away recently. But Irv, he might even have some information, written information, that might be good. This document here does provide some background, a little bit of background, if you want to take away and read. It’s kind of built in the days of typewriters.

[Assistant] That’s okay.

[User] It does give some history, some background description of the facility. So when you’re trying to write what this facility does, this would be a good source of information, and feel free to borrow this.

[Assistant] Great. Absolutely. We will.

[User] But like I said, Irv, I think he’s still available, and Barbara [G.] Shock here has his contact info if you want.

[Assistant] Okay. Is he still in the area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It does give some history, some background description of the facility. So when you’re trying to write what this facility does, this would be a good source of information, and feel free to borrow this.

[Assistant] Great. Absolutely. We will.

[User] But like I said, Irv, I think he’s still available, and Barbara [G.] Shock here has his contact info if you want.

[Assistant] Okay. Is he still in the area?

[User] He is still in the area.

[Assistant] Okay, great. Now, you mentioned that USA is the main contractor that supports the facility, and Lockheed supported that before them. Were there any other main contractors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’d have to think about that. There’s that plaque. See that plaque?

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] That’s the one I mentioned earlier. That’s the one I got for STS-1, and I felt very embarrassed to get that, because I had just got here. Because I didn’t feel like I had contributed all that much. But that one, I really like.

[Assistant] Oh, yes, that’s nice.

[User] I’m sure there are a few of those around. Nothing comes immediately to mind, actually. I keep this out for grins almost, and as a history thing for myself, to remind me of those days. But down here in this cabinet here, see those little consoles of cardboard up there?\n\n Those are about 30 years old. When I talked about the upgrade of the control center for SAIL, I was involved in helping Lockheed, at the time, design those new test consoles for this new control center. I kept getting questions: “What are these things going to look like? What are these things going to look like?” I think the PDR, the Preliminary Design Review, I think—one of the design reviews that we had—I just said, “Crap, I’m just going to make it out of cardboard.” That essentially is to scale, based on the drawings. I just keep those. I’ve kept them all these years. I don’t know why. But I just kind of laugh at them every time I see them. But I built those when I was in my early twenties. It accomplished what it—because now everybody knew exactly what it was. Needed a 3-D model.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s the one I mentioned earlier. That’s the one I got for STS-1, and I felt very embarrassed to get that, because I had just got here. Because I didn’t feel like I had contributed all that much. But that one, I really like.

[Assistant] Oh, yes, that’s nice.

[User] I’m sure there are a few of those around. Nothing comes immediately to mind, actually. I keep this out for grins almost, and as a history thing for myself, to remind me of those days. But down here in this cabinet here, see those little consoles of cardboard up there?\n\n Those are about 30 years old. When I talked about the upgrade of the control center for SAIL, I was involved in helping Lockheed, at the time, design those new test consoles for this new control center. I kept getting questions: “What are these things going to look like? What are these things going to look like?” I think the PDR, the Preliminary Design Review, I think—one of the design reviews that we had—I just said, “Crap, I’m just going to make it out of cardboard.” That essentially is to scale, based on the drawings. I just keep those. I’ve kept them all these years. I don’t know why. But I just kind of laugh at them every time I see them. But I built those when I was in my early twenties. It accomplished what it—because now everybody knew exactly what it was. Needed a 3-D model.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s great.

[User] It’s kind of funny, though.

[Assistant] Tell us about why there was a decision made to build this new control center.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That went operational in ’81, ’82 timeframe. I think it was after STS-1. I’m forgetting.

[Assistant] Do you know when the most recent change occurred?

[User] That’s within the last five years. Don would be able to give you the exact date on that. This thing right here came from that original—

[Assistant] What is that?

[User] That’s a kind of a tidbit of strange things to show you how things were so tight money-wise when we were doing this new control center. It looks like a core sample. One of the challenges that we had when we were building this new control center was that we didn’t have enough money to put in a false floor for this new control center that was down the hall here. So one of the NASA guys in the office says, “Well, why don’t we just drill holes in the concrete, and we’ll just run our wires above the first-floor ceiling”—like right about here—“and then just route the wires up into those racks, those consoles?” So that’s what we did. In this building, you’ll see some people have these, and there’s one that’s about that big around, too. But we had a company called Holes Incorporated, come out—they still exist today; I’ve seen them around. You can see that it has the linoleum tile on top of it.

[Assistant] Yes, it does.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a kind of a tidbit of strange things to show you how things were so tight money-wise when we were doing this new control center. It looks like a core sample. One of the challenges that we had when we were building this new control center was that we didn’t have enough money to put in a false floor for this new control center that was down the hall here. So one of the NASA guys in the office says, “Well, why don’t we just drill holes in the concrete, and we’ll just run our wires above the first-floor ceiling”—like right about here—“and then just route the wires up into those racks, those consoles?” So that’s what we did. In this building, you’ll see some people have these, and there’s one that’s about that big around, too. But we had a company called Holes Incorporated, come out—they still exist today; I’ve seen them around. You can see that it has the linoleum tile on top of it.

[Assistant] Yes, it does.

[User] They punched a bunch of holes, and it was very loud. That was very loud, and I can remember that. So if you go into the old control room—they moved it—you’ll see a bunch of holes in that floor. Well, it was because we couldn’t afford the false floor, which we would typically do in a lab, and then run the wires under the false floor. So our false floor is actually this concrete.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] That was creative thinking at the time. I thought it was a funny tidbit of sorts. But then they actually moved the control center around the corner to another location, and they put a false floor.

[Assistant] Got the money this time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They punched a bunch of holes, and it was very loud. That was very loud, and I can remember that. So if you go into the old control room—they moved it—you’ll see a bunch of holes in that floor. Well, it was because we couldn’t afford the false floor, which we would typically do in a lab, and then run the wires under the false floor. So our false floor is actually this concrete.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] That was creative thinking at the time. I thought it was a funny tidbit of sorts. But then they actually moved the control center around the corner to another location, and they put a false floor.

[Assistant] Got the money this time?

[User] Yes, got the money this time. That was always the challenges at the time, was trying to do as much as you can with the budget you got.

[Assistant]
I imagine it was a challenge.

I’m sure it still is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was creative thinking at the time. I thought it was a funny tidbit of sorts. But then they actually moved the control center around the corner to another location, and they put a false floor.

[Assistant] Got the money this time?

[User] Yes, got the money this time. That was always the challenges at the time, was trying to do as much as you can with the budget you got.

[Assistant]
I imagine it was a challenge.

I’m sure it still is.

[User] Still is. It’s age-old, and it’s always this wrestling match between the engineering organization and the program office, since they’re the ones that control all the funds. We want to do one thing, and they don’t have enough money to do that, so there’s this see-saw back and forth, and hopefully you get to the right middle ground on any decision. But being good stewards of the program’s money has always been what we try to do, not just do it to do it.

[Assistant]
Do you have any questions, Rebecca?

No, just was going to ask if you had any more thoughts, any more personal thoughts you’d like to share about the building and the fact that how vital it is to the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, got the money this time. That was always the challenges at the time, was trying to do as much as you can with the budget you got.

[Assistant]
I imagine it was a challenge.

I’m sure it still is.

[User] Still is. It’s age-old, and it’s always this wrestling match between the engineering organization and the program office, since they’re the ones that control all the funds. We want to do one thing, and they don’t have enough money to do that, so there’s this see-saw back and forth, and hopefully you get to the right middle ground on any decision. But being good stewards of the program’s money has always been what we try to do, not just do it to do it.

[Assistant]
Do you have any questions, Rebecca?

No, just was going to ask if you had any more thoughts, any more personal thoughts you’d like to share about the building and the fact that how vital it is to the program?

[User] It’s very easy to say that the Shuttle Program would not be the success that it has been if it wasn’t for this building and what’s in this building, and the people that are in it and the facility. Not everybody appreciates that, to be honest. It’s the traditional challenge, is to convince the powers that be that you need an avionics integration–type facility. If you were to see the facility and see how complex a machine it is, and you go, “Wow.” You can’t just build it and then go fly it; you just can’t. It won’t work. The risk is way, way too high. I have true, huge appreciation for the avionics integration and test side of the program and what it reveals and the problems that it can help solve, to make sure that you wring everything out before you fly, and then troubleshoot, too.

[Assistant] Can you think of an episode or an event that you guys troubleshooted or even one that you tested before it flew that it’s really good that you had that opportunity to do it before someone took it out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s been so long. That would be another good one for Don. He probably could give you a pretty good laundry list of things they’ve discovered over the last 30 years. That would be a good thing. I’m thinking more in general of assurances too, that it does indeed work. It’s just mandatory. We’re having that battle right now with the CEV Program. The new facility is getting cut, delayed, and it’s just not right. We get to these arguments of what the true rationale is for the facility.\n\n But from an engineering perspective, the integration job, when you put all this stuff together and hook it all up, it’s just a mammoth kind of undertaking, and very complex. I’m amazed at every Shuttle flight. That’s why I like this poster—it’s a little bit outdated—of all the Shuttle patches and all the Apollo patches. But it gives you a sense of how many times the Shuttle is flown. You tend to forget how many times the Shuttle has flown. I mean, over 100 times. Knowing what it takes to fly each Shuttle and the violent launch to the violent reentry, it’s just incredible, from an engineering perspective. But this facility was very much instrumental in making all that happen and making all those patches happen. Testing out the software, testing out the systems, to make sure that they accomplish what it needs to accomplish. Just about any engineer that’s involved in the development of the systems would say the same thing. But Don would be a real good one to give you that history of over the years of how that’s evolved. He’s been involved in that facility for a while.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] Touch base with Barbara, and she’ll have all that contact info.

[Assistant] Maybe it’ll help you with some information for the CAIL.

[User] Yes, that’s true. Actually, we are trying to get the SAIL guys involved in the CAIL facility.

[Assistant] That would make sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Touch base with Barbara, and she’ll have all that contact info.

[Assistant] Maybe it’ll help you with some information for the CAIL.

[User] Yes, that’s true. Actually, we are trying to get the SAIL guys involved in the CAIL facility.

[Assistant] That would make sense.

[User] That’s another one of these natural migrations that’s already started. As the Shuttle retires and that job goes away, then the Constellation and the CEV, CAIL, job is emerging. I don’t know if you’ve seen it over there. It’s way under construction. But that’s going to be exciting to see put in place. Looking forward to that.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you for sharing your time with us this morning—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. [In 1951] I graduated from Sanger [Union] High School, which is close to Reedley [College, California], where I went to after I graduated. I attended Reedley College for three semesters.

[Assistant] Did you get drafted?

[User] I got drafted [in May 1953]. The teacher just gave me a letter and said, “Just give this letter [to the U.S. Army recruitment office].” [After boot camp in Virginia] I went to [Gary Air Force Base] San Marcos, Texas, with the [US Air Force Helicopter School].

[Assistant] Did you learn about helicopters while you were there? Is that what you learned about?

[User] Oh, yes. I went to helicopter school and [also to Alaska working on helicopters]. After I got discharged [in 1955], I went back [to Reedley], and the [aeronautics program] instructor, Roy Russell, his brother [John W. “Jack” Russell] worked at NACA. We got a bunch of us—I think there was six of us—went through NACA, and we all got hired. John Russell gave us a little tour, and all six of us were hired. I was Aircraft Mechanic III and had maintenance repairs on R-4D, [Douglas] C-47 [Skytrain], [Convair] F-102-A [Delta Dagger], [North American] F-100-A [Super Sabre], [Lockheed] F-104 [Starfighter], and this was from February 1956 to March ’60.

[Assistant] Did they give you training when you got to the NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got drafted [in May 1953]. The teacher just gave me a letter and said, “Just give this letter [to the U.S. Army recruitment office].” [After boot camp in Virginia] I went to [Gary Air Force Base] San Marcos, Texas, with the [US Air Force Helicopter School].

[Assistant] Did you learn about helicopters while you were there? Is that what you learned about?

[User] Oh, yes. I went to helicopter school and [also to Alaska working on helicopters]. After I got discharged [in 1955], I went back [to Reedley], and the [aeronautics program] instructor, Roy Russell, his brother [John W. “Jack” Russell] worked at NACA. We got a bunch of us—I think there was six of us—went through NACA, and we all got hired. John Russell gave us a little tour, and all six of us were hired. I was Aircraft Mechanic III and had maintenance repairs on R-4D, [Douglas] C-47 [Skytrain], [Convair] F-102-A [Delta Dagger], [North American] F-100-A [Super Sabre], [Lockheed] F-104 [Starfighter], and this was from February 1956 to March ’60.

[Assistant] Did they give you training when you got to the NACA?

[User] Yes, we got training. When we first got there, we had to live in a dorm because they didn’t have any places for people that weren’t married. We went to South Base, and I was mostly on the R-4D, which is a C-47, and I was the Crew Chief, and I got training from the Crew Chief that was there, and then he left. Most of the training was hands on. There were two hangars at NACA at the time, and the aircraft were in the big hangar, and the little hangar was the calibration hangar. You had to furnish your own tools.

[Assistant] And that was very interesting. You had to furnish your own tools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I went to helicopter school and [also to Alaska working on helicopters]. After I got discharged [in 1955], I went back [to Reedley], and the [aeronautics program] instructor, Roy Russell, his brother [John W. “Jack” Russell] worked at NACA. We got a bunch of us—I think there was six of us—went through NACA, and we all got hired. John Russell gave us a little tour, and all six of us were hired. I was Aircraft Mechanic III and had maintenance repairs on R-4D, [Douglas] C-47 [Skytrain], [Convair] F-102-A [Delta Dagger], [North American] F-100-A [Super Sabre], [Lockheed] F-104 [Starfighter], and this was from February 1956 to March ’60.

[Assistant] Did they give you training when you got to the NACA?

[User] Yes, we got training. When we first got there, we had to live in a dorm because they didn’t have any places for people that weren’t married. We went to South Base, and I was mostly on the R-4D, which is a C-47, and I was the Crew Chief, and I got training from the Crew Chief that was there, and then he left. Most of the training was hands on. There were two hangars at NACA at the time, and the aircraft were in the big hangar, and the little hangar was the calibration hangar. You had to furnish your own tools.

[Assistant] And that was very interesting. You had to furnish your own tools?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they give you a list or did you come up with your own list?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we got training. When we first got there, we had to live in a dorm because they didn’t have any places for people that weren’t married. We went to South Base, and I was mostly on the R-4D, which is a C-47, and I was the Crew Chief, and I got training from the Crew Chief that was there, and then he left. Most of the training was hands on. There were two hangars at NACA at the time, and the aircraft were in the big hangar, and the little hangar was the calibration hangar. You had to furnish your own tools.

[Assistant] And that was very interesting. You had to furnish your own tools?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they give you a list or did you come up with your own list?

[User] Yes, they did. They told you the tools you should have, and there were people that came around selling tools, so you could really get what ones you did need.

[Assistant] Nellie, when did you become part of the NACA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they give you a list or did you come up with your own list?

[User] Yes, they did. They told you the tools you should have, and there were people that came around selling tools, so you could really get what ones you did need.

[Assistant] Nellie, when did you become part of the NACA?

[User] Before Byron did, actually. I came in June of ’54, one week out of high school, I think.

[Assistant] You had lived in the area for a while, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they did. They told you the tools you should have, and there were people that came around selling tools, so you could really get what ones you did need.

[Assistant] Nellie, when did you become part of the NACA?

[User] Before Byron did, actually. I came in June of ’54, one week out of high school, I think.

[Assistant] You had lived in the area for a while, right?

[User] I had.

[Assistant] What did you know about the NACA and about what was going on at the base?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Before Byron did, actually. I came in June of ’54, one week out of high school, I think.

[Assistant] You had lived in the area for a while, right?

[User] I had.

[Assistant] What did you know about the NACA and about what was going on at the base?

[User] Nothing. I did know the name of it, but that was it because a friend in high school, her dad worked there. I had heard her say that, and she was dating an Air Force guy out at the [Edwards Air Force] Base, and we would drive out there and throw rocks at his dorm window or barracks window or whatever, so he would come down and say hi to her. At one point, she drove me by what was the NACA, so I had seen it before I went out there the first day.

[Assistant] Was there a job opening that you applied for, or did you just apply and they called you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had.

[Assistant] What did you know about the NACA and about what was going on at the base?

[User] Nothing. I did know the name of it, but that was it because a friend in high school, her dad worked there. I had heard her say that, and she was dating an Air Force guy out at the [Edwards Air Force] Base, and we would drive out there and throw rocks at his dorm window or barracks window or whatever, so he would come down and say hi to her. At one point, she drove me by what was the NACA, so I had seen it before I went out there the first day.

[Assistant] Was there a job opening that you applied for, or did you just apply and they called you?

[User] No, I don’t remember ever applying for anything out there. I took the civil service exam at the old post office down on the boulevard, and they just called, so they must have given a listing or something. Maybe our high school teacher did it, or I don’t know exactly how. I got a call from the personnel lady who was Leona Corbett at the time, and went out for an interview and started June 28, and I graduated in June of that year, so it was shortly after high school.

[Assistant] What were your first thoughts about being out there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing. I did know the name of it, but that was it because a friend in high school, her dad worked there. I had heard her say that, and she was dating an Air Force guy out at the [Edwards Air Force] Base, and we would drive out there and throw rocks at his dorm window or barracks window or whatever, so he would come down and say hi to her. At one point, she drove me by what was the NACA, so I had seen it before I went out there the first day.

[Assistant] Was there a job opening that you applied for, or did you just apply and they called you?

[User] No, I don’t remember ever applying for anything out there. I took the civil service exam at the old post office down on the boulevard, and they just called, so they must have given a listing or something. Maybe our high school teacher did it, or I don’t know exactly how. I got a call from the personnel lady who was Leona Corbett at the time, and went out for an interview and started June 28, and I graduated in June of that year, so it was shortly after high school.

[Assistant] What were your first thoughts about being out there?

[User] I thought, “Oh my gosh.” I walked in the office the first day, and there was this big old calculator sitting there, and I took no math in high school. I did typing and shorthand, and I thought, “What do you do with that big old thing?” It was interesting. Scary.

[Assistant] What area did you first work in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t remember ever applying for anything out there. I took the civil service exam at the old post office down on the boulevard, and they just called, so they must have given a listing or something. Maybe our high school teacher did it, or I don’t know exactly how. I got a call from the personnel lady who was Leona Corbett at the time, and went out for an interview and started June 28, and I graduated in June of that year, so it was shortly after high school.

[Assistant] What were your first thoughts about being out there?

[User] I thought, “Oh my gosh.” I walked in the office the first day, and there was this big old calculator sitting there, and I took no math in high school. I did typing and shorthand, and I thought, “What do you do with that big old thing?” It was interesting. Scary.

[Assistant] What area did you first work in?

[User] In the fiscal office is what they called it, cost accounting. All the employees, which I think there were under 200 at the time, but they all filled out a biweekly [timesheet] the size of a typing sheet, and their numbers all had to coincide, if they had any overtime in there, and their regular days, and they had to put the times they signed in and out. My first job was going over those biweeklies before they went to the payroll clerk, which was in the same office.

[Assistant] Did you drive every day or did you carpool?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought, “Oh my gosh.” I walked in the office the first day, and there was this big old calculator sitting there, and I took no math in high school. I did typing and shorthand, and I thought, “What do you do with that big old thing?” It was interesting. Scary.

[Assistant] What area did you first work in?

[User] In the fiscal office is what they called it, cost accounting. All the employees, which I think there were under 200 at the time, but they all filled out a biweekly [timesheet] the size of a typing sheet, and their numbers all had to coincide, if they had any overtime in there, and their regular days, and they had to put the times they signed in and out. My first job was going over those biweeklies before they went to the payroll clerk, which was in the same office.

[Assistant] Did you drive every day or did you carpool?

[User] I did. I drove every day. Then it was just a couple of weeks, I think, when we started carpooling. I knew several people out there, actually, after I got going, so it was fun.

[Assistant] It seems the more that we talk to people who worked out in this area, there in those days, carpooling was such an advantage.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the fiscal office is what they called it, cost accounting. All the employees, which I think there were under 200 at the time, but they all filled out a biweekly [timesheet] the size of a typing sheet, and their numbers all had to coincide, if they had any overtime in there, and their regular days, and they had to put the times they signed in and out. My first job was going over those biweeklies before they went to the payroll clerk, which was in the same office.

[Assistant] Did you drive every day or did you carpool?

[User] I did. I drove every day. Then it was just a couple of weeks, I think, when we started carpooling. I knew several people out there, actually, after I got going, so it was fun.

[Assistant] It seems the more that we talk to people who worked out in this area, there in those days, carpooling was such an advantage.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Why did it work well for you?