[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true. That's true.

[Assistant] At least now you're to a jog.

[User] [Laughter] Yes. Yes, that's true.

[Assistant] Get up and go again. That's all that I have. I was going to ask Mark or Carol if they have anything that they'd like to ask you, if that's okay.

[User] No problem.

[Assistant]
Do you have some questions?

I wanted to ask you what you miss the most when you spent the time over in Russia and went back to the States. That's a question we've asked some of the different folks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that was it. You just looked at it as an experience, as an experience. I think it would have been a little bit different if you'd gone for two years. I think maybe the guys who had been over there longer, the ops leads who had been there for four or five months, they probably had a little different perspective on that. Some of the people from the embassy go there for two years' time.

[Assistant] Did you have any problems adjusting because you were there for whatever point of time and then you came back? I'm sure you did hit the ground running right back when you got here. There wasn't any time for rest?

[User] I think the only problem was more physical in a sense, because the climate there was dry, especially during the winter. Your skin starts flaking and stuff like that. Then if you come back here, especially in the fall, in October, if you go there in October, it's fairly cool, you come back here, it's still humid. So you come back and it's -

[Assistant] Kinda? [Laughter]

[User] You're carrying coats and gloves and stuff like that, and you're gasping for breath when you get back here, it's so thick.

[Assistant] And it's not going to go away, that we know for sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the only problem was more physical in a sense, because the climate there was dry, especially during the winter. Your skin starts flaking and stuff like that. Then if you come back here, especially in the fall, in October, if you go there in October, it's fairly cool, you come back here, it's still humid. So you come back and it's -

[Assistant] Kinda? [Laughter]

[User] You're carrying coats and gloves and stuff like that, and you're gasping for breath when you get back here, it's so thick.

[Assistant] And it's not going to go away, that we know for sure.

[User] Yes. That's what I told the guys, "Gee, you're missing all this wonderful weather here with the smoke and the haze and the heat."

[Assistant] "Welcome to the Gulf coast. We didn't know we'd have to add to the list."


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're carrying coats and gloves and stuff like that, and you're gasping for breath when you get back here, it's so thick.

[Assistant] And it's not going to go away, that we know for sure.

[User] Yes. That's what I told the guys, "Gee, you're missing all this wonderful weather here with the smoke and the haze and the heat."

[Assistant] "Welcome to the Gulf coast. We didn't know we'd have to add to the list."

[User] I mean, [unclear] to go to Russia. In this case, you'd miss some horrible weather in the last month.

[Assistant]
Yes, that's true. You have more?

I have a follow-on to that. I think you and Rebecca touched on it a little bit. Do you feel like you were a traveling salesman living out of a suitcase?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. That's what I told the guys, "Gee, you're missing all this wonderful weather here with the smoke and the haze and the heat."

[Assistant] "Welcome to the Gulf coast. We didn't know we'd have to add to the list."

[User] I mean, [unclear] to go to Russia. In this case, you'd miss some horrible weather in the last month.

[Assistant]
Yes, that's true. You have more?

I have a follow-on to that. I think you and Rebecca touched on it a little bit. Do you feel like you were a traveling salesman living out of a suitcase?

[User] Sometimes, yes. Actually, you just unpack the dirty clothes, because especially in like '95, when I was going like every other month, when you're gone for five, six weeks at a time, you don't really unpack everything, so you've got everything there and you kind of figure out what works, what doesn't work, what shoes not to take, that kind of stuff. It's hard, because the first time you've been there, and when you haven't been there in a certain month, you don't really know what the weather's like and how it's changed. So you're not sure what do I need to bring. Especially in the wintertime with sweaters. You almost double just the volume of stuff you need to take, because you need to bring more undershirts and sweaters and things like that. But I think as it is now, although with all the trips I've been there in every month, I kind of know what to expect. The thing is, it's really expensive over there, so you don't want to buy anything over there, if you forgot like a sweater or something like that.

[Assistant] And at least when you're traveling here, if you forget your toothbrush, you can go find a local store and buy it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, [unclear] to go to Russia. In this case, you'd miss some horrible weather in the last month.

[Assistant]
Yes, that's true. You have more?

I have a follow-on to that. I think you and Rebecca touched on it a little bit. Do you feel like you were a traveling salesman living out of a suitcase?

[User] Sometimes, yes. Actually, you just unpack the dirty clothes, because especially in like '95, when I was going like every other month, when you're gone for five, six weeks at a time, you don't really unpack everything, so you've got everything there and you kind of figure out what works, what doesn't work, what shoes not to take, that kind of stuff. It's hard, because the first time you've been there, and when you haven't been there in a certain month, you don't really know what the weather's like and how it's changed. So you're not sure what do I need to bring. Especially in the wintertime with sweaters. You almost double just the volume of stuff you need to take, because you need to bring more undershirts and sweaters and things like that. But I think as it is now, although with all the trips I've been there in every month, I kind of know what to expect. The thing is, it's really expensive over there, so you don't want to buy anything over there, if you forgot like a sweater or something like that.

[Assistant] And at least when you're traveling here, if you forget your toothbrush, you can go find a local store and buy it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But I guess there, that was a -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sometimes, yes. Actually, you just unpack the dirty clothes, because especially in like '95, when I was going like every other month, when you're gone for five, six weeks at a time, you don't really unpack everything, so you've got everything there and you kind of figure out what works, what doesn't work, what shoes not to take, that kind of stuff. It's hard, because the first time you've been there, and when you haven't been there in a certain month, you don't really know what the weather's like and how it's changed. So you're not sure what do I need to bring. Especially in the wintertime with sweaters. You almost double just the volume of stuff you need to take, because you need to bring more undershirts and sweaters and things like that. But I think as it is now, although with all the trips I've been there in every month, I kind of know what to expect. The thing is, it's really expensive over there, so you don't want to buy anything over there, if you forgot like a sweater or something like that.

[Assistant] And at least when you're traveling here, if you forget your toothbrush, you can go find a local store and buy it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But I guess there, that was a -

[User] Well, when we first went, it was really hard, but now you can find a lot of what you'd call the luxury items. They're fairly convenient and they're reasonably priced. It's not outrageous.

[Assistant] So you've watched the country change as well as you've watched the program change.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] But I guess there, that was a -

[User] Well, when we first went, it was really hard, but now you can find a lot of what you'd call the luxury items. They're fairly convenient and they're reasonably priced. It's not outrageous.

[Assistant] So you've watched the country change as well as you've watched the program change.

[User] Yes, and you kind of wonder, though, because you see the average person on the street, and for us it's not a big deal to buy average things off the shelves, because it's in line with our prices over here, but you wonder if the average person can afford these kinds of things. There's a lot of markets, there's a lot of stores. Someone can afford it. There's obviously a demand somewhere.

[Assistant] The people that you worked with in Russia, were they what you would consider the average people on the street?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when we first went, it was really hard, but now you can find a lot of what you'd call the luxury items. They're fairly convenient and they're reasonably priced. It's not outrageous.

[Assistant] So you've watched the country change as well as you've watched the program change.

[User] Yes, and you kind of wonder, though, because you see the average person on the street, and for us it's not a big deal to buy average things off the shelves, because it's in line with our prices over here, but you wonder if the average person can afford these kinds of things. There's a lot of markets, there's a lot of stores. Someone can afford it. There's obviously a demand somewhere.

[Assistant] The people that you worked with in Russia, were they what you would consider the average people on the street?

[User] I would say so, yes. They're not paid very well. They may be more receptive and open to us, but I have not seen any change in their economic status. If anything, it's the opposite. We've seen some people let go, for whatever reason, because the money isn't there in the government and so on.\n\n No one we've worked with very, very closely, but they're not there anymore. So you kind of wonder what keeps them going, what's in it for them. Usually, though, it's the older guys, because, to them, having worked through all their early space programs, some of those guys, their first job out of school, out of technical school, in the industry was like the times that we were being born. So there's a large generation gap in that sense. I guess to them this is a natural closure, part of their career as it's winding down, working together on something like this.

[Assistant] Do you see a progression within the Russia folks that you've worked with, different ages, or are they very old and your age? Is there a long line of people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in the sense that you always wish you had six months. It's like in school. "Gee, I wish I had started this paper a week earlier," or something like that. You always think, "If I had an extra two months, I could have done a better job on this," or, "I could have done that." All things considered, I think we did a decent job for what we had.

[Assistant] From what we've learned from all the people that we've talked to so far, and I'm sure we'll hear it confirmed again, is that it was a great group of people that worked together to get a lot done.

[User] Yes, I think so. I think a lot of people kind of bit their tongue and pulled together to pull it off.

[Assistant] You should be very proud of what you've done.

[User] You know, it needed to be done, so -

[Assistant]
Mark, any more?

I've already said I only had one more question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think so. I think a lot of people kind of bit their tongue and pulled together to pull it off.

[Assistant] You should be very proud of what you've done.

[User] You know, it needed to be done, so -

[Assistant]
Mark, any more?

I've already said I only had one more question.

[User] We'll splice that part out.

[Assistant] Were you ever able to go into a Russian apartment of the people you work with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Sean was the one that picked them. I think he tried to make a group that was representative of the leadership of the Agency, and really concentrated it on people that had significant field experience. The main criteria were to keep it people that were, to a large extent, leaders in the field. While I was from [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] at the time, I had spent a lot of time at Goddard.\n\n I think he wanted it to be a product of people that were recognizable, that we had experience that was worth sharing, and that it might be respected in the end. I think that he had his doubts going into it whether or not there were specific enough characteristics to define what the problem was that people were talking about that was part of the culture of NASA. That was it.

[Assistant] How long of a process was it?

[User] It strikes me it was six months or so, I think. We were all pretty much full-time for that period. We had a support team that was made up of a mixture of NASA folks as well as contractors. The contractor helped mostly in terms of organizing and producing the report, and keeping us on task. But yes, it strikes me it was about six months, and we met fairly often and traveled around the whole Agency.

[Assistant] When you went to the different Centers, who were you talking to at those Centers, and what was the reception?

[User] We talked to both the leadership team at the Centers, as well as town hall meetings at every Center. So we talked to everyone at the Centers that wanted to talk to us. Then we had separate sessions for anybody that had something that they wanted to say, but didn’t feel comfortable talking about it in a group.

[Assistant] Were they fairly receptive to talking to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It strikes me it was six months or so, I think. We were all pretty much full-time for that period. We had a support team that was made up of a mixture of NASA folks as well as contractors. The contractor helped mostly in terms of organizing and producing the report, and keeping us on task. But yes, it strikes me it was about six months, and we met fairly often and traveled around the whole Agency.

[Assistant] When you went to the different Centers, who were you talking to at those Centers, and what was the reception?

[User] We talked to both the leadership team at the Centers, as well as town hall meetings at every Center. So we talked to everyone at the Centers that wanted to talk to us. Then we had separate sessions for anybody that had something that they wanted to say, but didn’t feel comfortable talking about it in a group.

[Assistant] Were they fairly receptive to talking to you?

[User] Yes, I think especially the employees. I shouldn’t say “especially the employees,” because I think everyone was receptive to it. It was pretty widely accepted that the Administrator wanted this done, and I think everybody was supportive of doing it. I didn’t find any place where there was any particular reluctance to have the discussion.\n\n Some of the general sessions were pretty wide open in terms of people’s experiences. That’s where we encountered the feeling among many of the people that the rituals that NASA had, that we thought were processes that disciplined decision-making, were actually inhibiting dialogue in some instances. Because people were sometimes reluctant to have discussions in a large meeting that might, in some instances, be considered career-threatening. So it was quite a good experience, and I thought it was well-received.

[Assistant] But they were willing to open up if they felt like it wasn’t something that was going to reflect back on their career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We talked to both the leadership team at the Centers, as well as town hall meetings at every Center. So we talked to everyone at the Centers that wanted to talk to us. Then we had separate sessions for anybody that had something that they wanted to say, but didn’t feel comfortable talking about it in a group.

[Assistant] Were they fairly receptive to talking to you?

[User] Yes, I think especially the employees. I shouldn’t say “especially the employees,” because I think everyone was receptive to it. It was pretty widely accepted that the Administrator wanted this done, and I think everybody was supportive of doing it. I didn’t find any place where there was any particular reluctance to have the discussion.\n\n Some of the general sessions were pretty wide open in terms of people’s experiences. That’s where we encountered the feeling among many of the people that the rituals that NASA had, that we thought were processes that disciplined decision-making, were actually inhibiting dialogue in some instances. Because people were sometimes reluctant to have discussions in a large meeting that might, in some instances, be considered career-threatening. So it was quite a good experience, and I thought it was well-received.

[Assistant] But they were willing to open up if they felt like it wasn’t something that was going to reflect back on their career?

[User] Right, right. Everyone recognized there wasn’t going to be any attribution, and so yes, everybody was really wide-open, frankly.

[Assistant] Were there any surprises when you were going to the different Centers, or anything that surprised you about any of the information that you were gathering to put this report together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think especially the employees. I shouldn’t say “especially the employees,” because I think everyone was receptive to it. It was pretty widely accepted that the Administrator wanted this done, and I think everybody was supportive of doing it. I didn’t find any place where there was any particular reluctance to have the discussion.\n\n Some of the general sessions were pretty wide open in terms of people’s experiences. That’s where we encountered the feeling among many of the people that the rituals that NASA had, that we thought were processes that disciplined decision-making, were actually inhibiting dialogue in some instances. Because people were sometimes reluctant to have discussions in a large meeting that might, in some instances, be considered career-threatening. So it was quite a good experience, and I thought it was well-received.

[Assistant] But they were willing to open up if they felt like it wasn’t something that was going to reflect back on their career?

[User] Right, right. Everyone recognized there wasn’t going to be any attribution, and so yes, everybody was really wide-open, frankly.

[Assistant] Were there any surprises when you were going to the different Centers, or anything that surprised you about any of the information that you were gathering to put this report together?

[User] To some degree, I was surprised at how widespread the feeling was that there were issues in the way we conducted business, and that they were more widely felt than just locally. I was surprised that the characteristics that we found were as widespread as they were across the Agency. So I guess that was my biggest surprise.

[Assistant] Even though the Centers focused on different things, they had the same overall worries?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right. Everyone recognized there wasn’t going to be any attribution, and so yes, everybody was really wide-open, frankly.

[Assistant] Were there any surprises when you were going to the different Centers, or anything that surprised you about any of the information that you were gathering to put this report together?

[User] To some degree, I was surprised at how widespread the feeling was that there were issues in the way we conducted business, and that they were more widely felt than just locally. I was surprised that the characteristics that we found were as widespread as they were across the Agency. So I guess that was my biggest surprise.

[Assistant] Even though the Centers focused on different things, they had the same overall worries?

[User] Yes. I talked about it the last time—at the beginning in the Agency’s history, we were beneficiaries of technology advances, people looked forward to working with NASA on new technologies. And then later, it wasn’t so much that they avoided working with NASA, but they didn’t care as much. If you wanted their product that would be fine, but if you didn’t that would be fine, too.\n\n One of the things I think that led to was some feelings at times that things weren’t going to be as reproducible and predictable as we had always hoped they would be. To some degree, I think that led to some people assuming that sometimes things happen, and you need to move on. That was something that we saw pretty widespread in the Agency, and had made a contribution to some of the major issues that we encountered.

[Assistant] When the report was released, how was it released? Did you have to go to each Center and then talk about the report with each Center? Or was it something that was just released from Headquarters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To some degree, I was surprised at how widespread the feeling was that there were issues in the way we conducted business, and that they were more widely felt than just locally. I was surprised that the characteristics that we found were as widespread as they were across the Agency. So I guess that was my biggest surprise.

[Assistant] Even though the Centers focused on different things, they had the same overall worries?

[User] Yes. I talked about it the last time—at the beginning in the Agency’s history, we were beneficiaries of technology advances, people looked forward to working with NASA on new technologies. And then later, it wasn’t so much that they avoided working with NASA, but they didn’t care as much. If you wanted their product that would be fine, but if you didn’t that would be fine, too.\n\n One of the things I think that led to was some feelings at times that things weren’t going to be as reproducible and predictable as we had always hoped they would be. To some degree, I think that led to some people assuming that sometimes things happen, and you need to move on. That was something that we saw pretty widespread in the Agency, and had made a contribution to some of the major issues that we encountered.

[Assistant] When the report was released, how was it released? Did you have to go to each Center and then talk about the report with each Center? Or was it something that was just released from Headquarters?

[User] That’s an interesting question. I don’t actually remember how the report was released. I don’t think that the rollout had us going back to each of the Centers, but I don’t remember. I can’t say that I remember.

[Assistant] And you were already at NASA Headquarters again at this point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I talked about it the last time—at the beginning in the Agency’s history, we were beneficiaries of technology advances, people looked forward to working with NASA on new technologies. And then later, it wasn’t so much that they avoided working with NASA, but they didn’t care as much. If you wanted their product that would be fine, but if you didn’t that would be fine, too.\n\n One of the things I think that led to was some feelings at times that things weren’t going to be as reproducible and predictable as we had always hoped they would be. To some degree, I think that led to some people assuming that sometimes things happen, and you need to move on. That was something that we saw pretty widespread in the Agency, and had made a contribution to some of the major issues that we encountered.

[Assistant] When the report was released, how was it released? Did you have to go to each Center and then talk about the report with each Center? Or was it something that was just released from Headquarters?

[User] That’s an interesting question. I don’t actually remember how the report was released. I don’t think that the rollout had us going back to each of the Centers, but I don’t remember. I can’t say that I remember.

[Assistant] And you were already at NASA Headquarters again at this point?

[User] At that point, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] When you went back to NASA Headquarters in August 2004, you actually traded places with Ed [Edward J.] Weiler [Associate Administrator for the Science Mission Directorate].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s an interesting question. I don’t actually remember how the report was released. I don’t think that the rollout had us going back to each of the Centers, but I don’t remember. I can’t say that I remember.

[Assistant] And you were already at NASA Headquarters again at this point?

[User] At that point, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] When you went back to NASA Headquarters in August 2004, you actually traded places with Ed [Edward J.] Weiler [Associate Administrator for the Science Mission Directorate].

[User] I did, yes.

[Assistant] Let’s just talk about that transition—how that came about, and how you traded places.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It sounds pretty good.

[Assistant] It did. That’s why it struck me. I thought, “Well, that’s an interesting way of putting it.”

[User] Well, it’s a little bit more diplomatic than I might have remembered saying it, but okay.

[Assistant] Well, that’s what the Astrogram said that you said. They quoted you.

[User] I believe I would have said that, yes.

[Assistant] It sounds like something you would say, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s a little bit more diplomatic than I might have remembered saying it, but okay.

[Assistant] Well, that’s what the Astrogram said that you said. They quoted you.

[User] I believe I would have said that, yes.

[Assistant] It sounds like something you would say, right?

[User] Right, yes.

[Assistant] You mentioned during that time you had been dealing with that full-cost accounting and management change with Sean O’Keefe. Do you want to talk about that for a little bit, what that was like, dealing with that change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, or what the real cost of a project was.

[Assistant] All those hidden costs, things you don’t account for.

[User] Right, yes.

[Assistant] Talking about money, over the years you were here, you dealt with budgets as a Center Director and Associate Administrator. Let’s talk about that for a while. I thought it was interesting when we talked last time about Galileo [mission to Jupiter], and you said that the team gave you a framed sign to remind you your job was to get the money.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Missions are expensive, and somebody’s got to get buy-in. Other people have described it as a sales job. You have to go out to sell people and tell them, “These things are going to be wonderful.” Well, why are they going to be wonderful when it’s something that’s almost abstract for a lot of people, especially the exoplanets and all the different things that not everyone can get their head around? Talk about that, trying to get money for science.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it’s something like that. Frank is still around. I’ll probably see him this afternoon. Hiram Baxter, who’s been here for 41 years, is leaving. Today is his last day. He’s a USA employee. Probably see a lot of those guys out at the Gilruth [Center] this afternoon myself, because they come out of the woodwork sometimes for those going away parties. Frank would probably be good. He’s a history buff anyway. He came to work in NASA I think right out of school. He was at the Cape for a number of years as a young kid when they did a lot of stuff down there. I’m sure he could elaborate and probably give you all kinds of insight on this facility, because like I said he hired me back in ’81, and he was my boss for a number of years, and then he left, went one direction, I went another. Then we rendezvoused, and I worked for him again. I still give tours to his folks and to him. I see him all the time around here. He’d probably be the best source, I’d say. I know he’s in the local area still working here. Some of the other ones may be in the local area, but they’re probably on the golf course or something like that.

[Assistant] Enjoying their retirement.

[User] Not only that, but he loves to talk to you about stuff here, so you won’t have a hard time getting an audience with him. Let’s see. I gave you the brochures, the pamphlet.

[Assistant] One thing I was thinking is do you have anything specific maybe about the simulators. Is there a manual maybe or a history?

[User] Well, that’s funny, because a lot of that stuff, as we’ve gone to the electronic age, people throw those things away now for electronic [files]. Actually what I did, I showed this to somebody. Somebody was here the other day from one of the historical societies. I think I dug this out of the garbage can maybe.

[Assistant] Oh, no, makes our heart break.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not only that, but he loves to talk to you about stuff here, so you won’t have a hard time getting an audience with him. Let’s see. I gave you the brochures, the pamphlet.

[Assistant] One thing I was thinking is do you have anything specific maybe about the simulators. Is there a manual maybe or a history?

[User] Well, that’s funny, because a lot of that stuff, as we’ve gone to the electronic age, people throw those things away now for electronic [files]. Actually what I did, I showed this to somebody. Somebody was here the other day from one of the historical societies. I think I dug this out of the garbage can maybe.

[Assistant] Oh, no, makes our heart break.

[User] This is just some stuff. You’d have to almost go through here and see if you could see what it is. But I have it, it’s like ’82. The motion base crew station operating. Aft seat. See, here’s the Link logo, a division of Singer. See, that’s back when they were here. Where’s the date? I’m missing the date here—’80. So this is probably good stuff. Yes, drawings.

[Assistant] Drawings would be fantastic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is just some stuff. You’d have to almost go through here and see if you could see what it is. But I have it, it’s like ’82. The motion base crew station operating. Aft seat. See, here’s the Link logo, a division of Singer. See, that’s back when they were here. Where’s the date? I’m missing the date here—’80. So this is probably good stuff. Yes, drawings.

[Assistant] Drawings would be fantastic.

[User] Yes, see. That’s ’76.

[Assistant] The schematics.

[User] There you go. See, that’s back in the days when people actually wrote and used paper. I wow people with stuff like this. They say, “Oh my gosh, where’d you get that, oh, my!” Again I think I just inherited it somehow or another.

[Assistant] Would you allow us at some point to borrow it to scan it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gosh, it was continuous; it never stopped. Carl always had one more thing he wanted, so you never got finished. There were so many options, because you had so many mission objectives to try to achieve and a limited number of missions, so the focus really was on developing as much of a knowledge base as you could of how you were going to deal with the off-nominal cases.

[Assistant] I understand in ’67 you started working for the Contingency Analysis Section.

[User] Yes, that’s probably—to be honest, I’ve kind of forgotten the titles. I mean, I can relate what I was doing. Sixty-seven. I don’t know. Through that whole period there were organizational changes that went on, but I don’t remember exactly all the details of what was going on. Most of my career, for working on Apollo, was working for Carl Huss, and as he became a branch chief, then I had Clay [Claiborne R.] Hicks as a section head, and there was a lot of organizational changes that were going on, so I don’t remember that as anything significant.

[Assistant] When you were working with Clay Hicks, what sort of work were you doing?

[User] It was the same. Same kind of stuff. I spent a little over eighteen years in the Mission Planning and Analysis Division. I joked, because it was on the third floor of Building 30, and I joked that I had gone around the building three times, with offices mov[ing] me, and I concluded after eighteen years I didn’t want to go around again. I needed to look for something new to do.\n\n But basically I worked for Clay in those kinds of jobs up until—well, let’s see. Somewhere around ’67 would have been when I became a mission manager. Did you find anything on that in there?

[Assistant] We did. What were some of your duties as a mission manager?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really thought that it might benefit from a reorganization, but I could never force myself to address the way we budgeted. In particular, we had an Exploration Division and an ISS Division. Those divisions got their money, still do get their money—a significant amount of their money—from the programs they support. There were advantages to doing that. So if we did a reorg, I was always concerned that we would then lose the leverage with the programs to get the funding that we needed to provide their support. That was another reason I thought it was probably time to turn over the reins, to let someone come in and address that challenge.

[Assistant] You mentioned budget. One of the things that happened while you were in that position was a sequestration, and then also there was a cut in 2013, 2014 midyear, where NASA had to take a pretty large cut to its budget. I wondered what impact that had on Safety.

[User] Not a lot. I don’t think it had a big impact on the organization. Did it have a big impact on safety as a state of human spaceflight? It always does. Quantifying it, or even describing it is very, very difficult, because people go and they do as much work as they can. It’s less that questions or issues aren’t addressed. The thing is that there are issues that are never identified.\n\n You may have answered all the questions that you saw, but there are questions that you never hear. When I say questions, that’s a surrogate for issues or problems. You solve the problems of which you’re aware. The danger is there must be problems of which you’re unaware.

[Assistant] I can see that being a major issue.

[User] It’s the unknown unknowns.

[Assistant] That get you. Would you talk about your staff for Safety, your deputy, and some of the people who worked for you and their contributions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think mostly it was blessing the recommendations that came out from either the ISS chief S&MA officer or the ISS Division. [Organizational code] NE, the ISS Division and the ISS Program—in particular the ISS Safety and Risk Management Office, [code] OE—that was a very mature relationship, so really there were just very few issues related to risk management or risk acceptance that required me to make decisions about a particular recommendation or not.\n\n Good news is I knew how to spell ISS. It was always funny to have some safety engineer come in to brief, like before a flight readiness review or before a safety and mission success review, who maybe did not realize I’d been an ISS crew member and that I really did know a lot about ISS.

[Assistant] Oops.

[User] No, it was never bad, but it could be humorous. They’d be talking about something and I might ask, “Who installed that?”\n\n “Oh, I don’t know.”\n\n “You know what Expedition it was installed in? Do you know what Shuttle mission that antenna was installed on?”

[Assistant] Did you ever get a chance to go over as head of S&MA to Russia again?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Nothing like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was never bad, but it could be humorous. They’d be talking about something and I might ask, “Who installed that?”\n\n “Oh, I don’t know.”\n\n “You know what Expedition it was installed in? Do you know what Shuttle mission that antenna was installed on?”

[Assistant] Did you ever get a chance to go over as head of S&MA to Russia again?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Nothing like that.

[User] That was interesting because the interface with the Russians was through the ISS Program. That was really the ISS Safety and Risk Management Office owned that interaction.

[Assistant] Orion had a big launch, the EFT [Exploration Flight Test]-1. Were you involved in those events or moments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Nothing like that.

[User] That was interesting because the interface with the Russians was through the ISS Program. That was really the ISS Safety and Risk Management Office owned that interaction.

[Assistant] Orion had a big launch, the EFT [Exploration Flight Test]-1. Were you involved in those events or moments?

[User] No. We would do the normal risk reviews and flight readiness review-type things but that really was—I guess comes down to a Lockheed Martin contracted event. And not having crew members on it, the requirements were significantly different.

[Assistant] I wasn’t sure about that, if you’d had a chance to go down there and see the launch.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was interesting because the interface with the Russians was through the ISS Program. That was really the ISS Safety and Risk Management Office owned that interaction.

[Assistant] Orion had a big launch, the EFT [Exploration Flight Test]-1. Were you involved in those events or moments?

[User] No. We would do the normal risk reviews and flight readiness review-type things but that really was—I guess comes down to a Lockheed Martin contracted event. And not having crew members on it, the requirements were significantly different.

[Assistant] I wasn’t sure about that, if you’d had a chance to go down there and see the launch.

[User] If I remember correctly, we were down there for some kind of meeting and then the launch got delayed or something, so I wasn’t there when the launch actually happened.

[Assistant] There were a couple of things that obviously were part of Safety. I wrote down a couple things that I remember since we’ve been here. One I wanted to get you to talk about was bringing the History Office [onboard].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. We would do the normal risk reviews and flight readiness review-type things but that really was—I guess comes down to a Lockheed Martin contracted event. And not having crew members on it, the requirements were significantly different.

[Assistant] I wasn’t sure about that, if you’d had a chance to go down there and see the launch.

[User] If I remember correctly, we were down there for some kind of meeting and then the launch got delayed or something, so I wasn’t there when the launch actually happened.

[Assistant] There were a couple of things that obviously were part of Safety. I wrote down a couple things that I remember since we’ve been here. One I wanted to get you to talk about was bringing the History Office [onboard].

[User] Yes, that was another one of those really neat opportunities. I’m trying to remember who—was Trish the deputy when we did that, or was Vincent still the deputy?

[Assistant] The first time we came up to interview Trish was here, but I want to say it was maybe nine months after we had started. Trying to remember when we did that first interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If I remember correctly, we were down there for some kind of meeting and then the launch got delayed or something, so I wasn’t there when the launch actually happened.

[Assistant] There were a couple of things that obviously were part of Safety. I wrote down a couple things that I remember since we’ve been here. One I wanted to get you to talk about was bringing the History Office [onboard].

[User] Yes, that was another one of those really neat opportunities. I’m trying to remember who—was Trish the deputy when we did that, or was Vincent still the deputy?

[Assistant] The first time we came up to interview Trish was here, but I want to say it was maybe nine months after we had started. Trying to remember when we did that first interview.

[User] Maybe Trish was the one that carried the water buckets on that one, but I just remember it was an interesting situation that clearly the ninth floor [Center management] felt they had a problem. Who were you guys under before?

[Assistant] IRD [Information Resources Directorate].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t do a lot hands-on on that. Mike Fodroci really was working with Ad Astra [Rocket Company]. What they were really trying to do was give them—and this was a nonreimbursable one. It was to help them negotiate the safety protocols to put VASIMR on ISS.

[Assistant] I did want to go back and ask about the Orbiter Project Office, because there were a couple things that I thought might be interesting for people to know about. At that time, things were starting to shift. We were starting to process vehicles, getting them ready for museums. I wanted to know what your involvement was in that.

[User] The Shuttle Transition Office was headed by Dorothy [S.] Rasco, and they handled all of that. Our focus up until the Shuttle Program ended was the next mission; it was the next mission. I guess it would have been August [2011] when the Shuttle Program really was done. I became the S&MA director for the Center, and then the Shuttle Transition Office assumed responsibility. We just basically walked away from everything and left it to Dorothy and her gang of thieves.

[Assistant] I was wondering about that.

[User] I would have liked to have held on and gone with each of the vehicles to its final home.

[Assistant] John Shannon had come to you and said he wanted you to focus on building those relationships with the other projects. Can you talk about that and give some examples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think so. I didn’t just encourage it. It was, “I’m not asking you to collaborate with these people, I’m telling you that’s what you’re going to do.”

[Assistant] Was a mandate.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What are your memories of those last few missions and that final mission? Were you there for the final mission?

[User] Yes. They are a bit of sadness that you knew that those were [the final flights]; it probably wasn’t the last few missions, although we knew which was the last mission for each vehicle. There was a certain last part, but up until Atlantis flew in 2011—up until then, you always had one more mission that you knew that you could focus on, and you could look forward to. So it was that last one.\n\n One of the people that supported our contract was a gentleman named Joe [Joseph E.] Michelet. Joe had been around a long time. He had been a senior, senior NASA manager, and then I guess he was working for Boeing maybe. In the last pre-MMT (mission management team) meeting we had, I asked Joe to chair it. Just a tribute to the history of the program and the people who were involved there at the beginning, and that was kind of fun.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that day as wheels touched down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What are your memories of those last few missions and that final mission? Were you there for the final mission?

[User] Yes. They are a bit of sadness that you knew that those were [the final flights]; it probably wasn’t the last few missions, although we knew which was the last mission for each vehicle. There was a certain last part, but up until Atlantis flew in 2011—up until then, you always had one more mission that you knew that you could focus on, and you could look forward to. So it was that last one.\n\n One of the people that supported our contract was a gentleman named Joe [Joseph E.] Michelet. Joe had been around a long time. He had been a senior, senior NASA manager, and then I guess he was working for Boeing maybe. In the last pre-MMT (mission management team) meeting we had, I asked Joe to chair it. Just a tribute to the history of the program and the people who were involved there at the beginning, and that was kind of fun.

[Assistant] What are your memories of that day as wheels touched down?

[User] It was business as usual. It’s deorbit day. We were so engaged in executing the mission that I don’t think we really thought that it’s over until the vehicle stopped.

[Assistant] We normally like to ask folks a few things before they leave, one of which is what do you think is your greatest accomplishment, looking back over your NASA career. If you had to pick one, I know it’s a very long career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was business as usual. It’s deorbit day. We were so engaged in executing the mission that I don’t think we really thought that it’s over until the vehicle stopped.

[Assistant] We normally like to ask folks a few things before they leave, one of which is what do you think is your greatest accomplishment, looking back over your NASA career. If you had to pick one, I know it’s a very long career.

[User] Gosh, I don’t know. I would say just having hung around for 30 years. How do you define the word accomplishment?\n\n I think the most exciting thing in my career was being on ISS for six months, and I think building a relationship with my Russian colleagues. And gosh, learning to speak Russian, and being able to just fly on a Russian vehicle and spend six months on ISS. We kept the Station running, and there were only two of us on board. There were several crews that way, but that was a physically and mentally challenging exercise. I just took a lot of satisfaction out of being the Orbiter project manager. I think maybe helping that team, helping Orbiter be a good team member.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge?

[User] Probably my biggest challenge was being accepted in the astronaut program. Seriously. In retrospect, not a lot of it seems that challenging. There was the next task, and so you finish one task and now there’s another job in front of you. They were all doable. They seemed more exciting than they did challenging. Maybe they were exciting because they were challenging. I’m not sure there were any great challenges out there, it was just a lot of good things to do.

[Assistant] I think this might be a good stopping place. If you’d like to come back we can talk about Gary [H. Kitmacher’s] questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Will actually have to go back a couple of years. Sure. I was in high school, graduated from high school ‘64. And when I was in my sophomore year, one of the teachers from our school decided she wanted to go into the Peace Corps and she was selected, she came back in my senior year and we had a school program. She got up and she talked about it.

[Assistant] Now, where were you going to high school?

[User] This was in Colorado. Grand Junction, Colorado. And it just kind of inspired me that it sounded like something that was exciting and fun to do. And, you know, my background with my father had been towards service. He was in Scouts for probably close to 25 years.

[Assistant] Had you grown up in Grand Junction?

[User] Mostly in Grand Junction, from the time I was about fifth grade till, you know, my first couple of years of college, we were in Grand Junction. So he was always, you know, you got to give something back. He did public service and he worked for the state of Colorado. And he did a lot of volunteer work with the Boy Scouts, loved that.

[Assistant] And when you were in high school, did you get involved with volunteer activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was in Colorado. Grand Junction, Colorado. And it just kind of inspired me that it sounded like something that was exciting and fun to do. And, you know, my background with my father had been towards service. He was in Scouts for probably close to 25 years.

[Assistant] Had you grown up in Grand Junction?

[User] Mostly in Grand Junction, from the time I was about fifth grade till, you know, my first couple of years of college, we were in Grand Junction. So he was always, you know, you got to give something back. He did public service and he worked for the state of Colorado. And he did a lot of volunteer work with the Boy Scouts, loved that.

[Assistant] And when you were in high school, did you get involved with volunteer activities?

[User] Well, other than Scouts, I was in Scouts pretty much all the way up until after I was graduated from high school.

[Assistant] Oh, through Eagle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly in Grand Junction, from the time I was about fifth grade till, you know, my first couple of years of college, we were in Grand Junction. So he was always, you know, you got to give something back. He did public service and he worked for the state of Colorado. And he did a lot of volunteer work with the Boy Scouts, loved that.

[Assistant] And when you were in high school, did you get involved with volunteer activities?

[User] Well, other than Scouts, I was in Scouts pretty much all the way up until after I was graduated from high school.

[Assistant] Oh, through Eagle?

[User] Through Eagle, through Explorer Scouts. So when when this thing came along, it was kind of like an opportunity to go out and see the world and I thought this would be really great. So right after the assembly they had somebody there who was taking names and application of interest, not actual application for per se. But, you know, would you be interested? And I signed up, I’m going to go to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] This is just after high school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, other than Scouts, I was in Scouts pretty much all the way up until after I was graduated from high school.

[Assistant] Oh, through Eagle?

[User] Through Eagle, through Explorer Scouts. So when when this thing came along, it was kind of like an opportunity to go out and see the world and I thought this would be really great. So right after the assembly they had somebody there who was taking names and application of interest, not actual application for per se. But, you know, would you be interested? And I signed up, I’m going to go to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] This is just after high school.

[User] This was high school in ‘64. So I never heard a word for two years.

[Assistant] Right. Right. And now when did you fill out an application?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Through Eagle, through Explorer Scouts. So when when this thing came along, it was kind of like an opportunity to go out and see the world and I thought this would be really great. So right after the assembly they had somebody there who was taking names and application of interest, not actual application for per se. But, you know, would you be interested? And I signed up, I’m going to go to the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] This is just after high school.

[User] This was high school in ‘64. So I never heard a word for two years.

[Assistant] Right. Right. And now when did you fill out an application?

[User] I think I did. I remember that I wanted to go to Micronesia.

[Assistant] They asked you for a preference.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was high school in ‘64. So I never heard a word for two years.

[Assistant] Right. Right. And now when did you fill out an application?

[User] I think I did. I remember that I wanted to go to Micronesia.

[Assistant] They asked you for a preference.

[User] Yeah, and I love the South Seas.

[Assistant] Do you recall what they also do as a kind of a skill array supposed to describe the skills you have, you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I did. I remember that I wanted to go to Micronesia.

[Assistant] They asked you for a preference.

[User] Yeah, and I love the South Seas.

[Assistant] Do you recall what they also do as a kind of a skill array supposed to describe the skills you have, you recall?

[User] Well, at that time, probably the only skill I had was I'd grown up in an agricultural type of background. We always had animals. We always had a small farm. And my dad came from a larger Soviet ranch when he was younger.

[Assistant] So you grew up living on a small farm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and I love the South Seas.

[Assistant] Do you recall what they also do as a kind of a skill array supposed to describe the skills you have, you recall?

[User] Well, at that time, probably the only skill I had was I'd grown up in an agricultural type of background. We always had animals. We always had a small farm. And my dad came from a larger Soviet ranch when he was younger.

[Assistant] So you grew up living on a small farm?

[User] I was in the country. Yeah. We we had three acres. We really rented some acreage for the frame feed for the animals, usually kept pigs. So I knew how to deal with pigs, how to put them through the birthing process.

[Assistant] Any brothers or sisters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at that time, probably the only skill I had was I'd grown up in an agricultural type of background. We always had animals. We always had a small farm. And my dad came from a larger Soviet ranch when he was younger.

[Assistant] So you grew up living on a small farm?

[User] I was in the country. Yeah. We we had three acres. We really rented some acreage for the frame feed for the animals, usually kept pigs. So I knew how to deal with pigs, how to put them through the birthing process.

[Assistant] Any brothers or sisters?

[User] I had one sister, three years older than I was. And she was in college by the time I got out of high school.

[Assistant] So as you remember, when you filled out the application, you indicated agricultural skills as one of the skills.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in the country. Yeah. We we had three acres. We really rented some acreage for the frame feed for the animals, usually kept pigs. So I knew how to deal with pigs, how to put them through the birthing process.

[Assistant] Any brothers or sisters?

[User] I had one sister, three years older than I was. And she was in college by the time I got out of high school.

[Assistant] So as you remember, when you filled out the application, you indicated agricultural skills as one of the skills.

[User] That was about the only saleable skill I had at that time.

[Assistant] And we still in high school or had you by then going on to college when you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was about the only saleable skill I had at that time.

[Assistant] And we still in high school or had you by then going on to college when you did?

[User] And I think this was right after high school just before we graduated.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] Because I remember her coming back and doing the assembly and there were people at a table in the hallway with a little clipboard. And I just thought, wow, this would be a great thing if I could do that. So I filled out all the paperwork and oh, and then went on with my life and went to college out in Colorado.

[Assistant] Let's concentrate on. Do you recall at that point whether you were getting references and did you have to take the Peace Corps entry exam? Were they still giving an exam at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think this was right after high school just before we graduated.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] Because I remember her coming back and doing the assembly and there were people at a table in the hallway with a little clipboard. And I just thought, wow, this would be a great thing if I could do that. So I filled out all the paperwork and oh, and then went on with my life and went to college out in Colorado.

[Assistant] Let's concentrate on. Do you recall at that point whether you were getting references and did you have to take the Peace Corps entry exam? Were they still giving an exam at that time?

[User] I don't think any of that happened. I think what happened is they took my application, put it in the process, shoot. Two years later it came out the other end.

[Assistant] Probably because of the agricultural flight. So, yeah, during your years up through high school, had you done any travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I remember her coming back and doing the assembly and there were people at a table in the hallway with a little clipboard. And I just thought, wow, this would be a great thing if I could do that. So I filled out all the paperwork and oh, and then went on with my life and went to college out in Colorado.

[Assistant] Let's concentrate on. Do you recall at that point whether you were getting references and did you have to take the Peace Corps entry exam? Were they still giving an exam at that time?

[User] I don't think any of that happened. I think what happened is they took my application, put it in the process, shoot. Two years later it came out the other end.

[Assistant] Probably because of the agricultural flight. So, yeah, during your years up through high school, had you done any travel?

[User] Other than to various parts of the country to visit family farms about it, that’s about it.

[Assistant] Nothing outside the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think any of that happened. I think what happened is they took my application, put it in the process, shoot. Two years later it came out the other end.

[Assistant] Probably because of the agricultural flight. So, yeah, during your years up through high school, had you done any travel?

[User] Other than to various parts of the country to visit family farms about it, that’s about it.

[Assistant] Nothing outside the U.S.?

[User] Nothing outside the U.S.

[Assistant] Had you studied any foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other than to various parts of the country to visit family farms about it, that’s about it.

[Assistant] Nothing outside the U.S.?

[User] Nothing outside the U.S.

[Assistant] Had you studied any foreign language?

[User] We had Latin in high school. But that’s not coming in handy. I could go to Latin America and speak Latin.

[Assistant] So where did you go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing outside the U.S.

[Assistant] Had you studied any foreign language?

[User] We had Latin in high school. But that’s not coming in handy. I could go to Latin America and speak Latin.

[Assistant] So where did you go to college?

[User] So when I graduated from high school, I applied to the University of Colorado at Boulder. It was over the mountains from from where I lived. Yeah. And I was looking at taking architecture and engineering. And then and two years after I started, I was looking for a summer job in 1966. I had applied to the city and county of Denver in the drafting department planning department. And I was hired as a draftsperson and I worked there and I was taking some courses in Denver, working in Denver for the summer before I went back for the fall. Right. And towards the end of the summer of 1966, I got a letter from the Peace Corps said, would you like to go to India? And I said, yes!

[Assistant] Oh, how old were you then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had Latin in high school. But that’s not coming in handy. I could go to Latin America and speak Latin.

[Assistant] So where did you go to college?

[User] So when I graduated from high school, I applied to the University of Colorado at Boulder. It was over the mountains from from where I lived. Yeah. And I was looking at taking architecture and engineering. And then and two years after I started, I was looking for a summer job in 1966. I had applied to the city and county of Denver in the drafting department planning department. And I was hired as a draftsperson and I worked there and I was taking some courses in Denver, working in Denver for the summer before I went back for the fall. Right. And towards the end of the summer of 1966, I got a letter from the Peace Corps said, would you like to go to India? And I said, yes!

[Assistant] Oh, how old were you then?

[User] I would have been 20 at that time.

[Assistant] So fairly young.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So when I graduated from high school, I applied to the University of Colorado at Boulder. It was over the mountains from from where I lived. Yeah. And I was looking at taking architecture and engineering. And then and two years after I started, I was looking for a summer job in 1966. I had applied to the city and county of Denver in the drafting department planning department. And I was hired as a draftsperson and I worked there and I was taking some courses in Denver, working in Denver for the summer before I went back for the fall. Right. And towards the end of the summer of 1966, I got a letter from the Peace Corps said, would you like to go to India? And I said, yes!

[Assistant] Oh, how old were you then?

[User] I would have been 20 at that time.

[Assistant] So fairly young.

[User] I was fairly young, you know, which later on acted to my detriment when they finished the program. The training program. And we can get to that.

[Assistant] At that point, what was your family's attitude? Did they know you had applied?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would have been 20 at that time.

[Assistant] So fairly young.

[User] I was fairly young, you know, which later on acted to my detriment when they finished the program. The training program. And we can get to that.

[Assistant] At that point, what was your family's attitude? Did they know you had applied?

[User] I don't remember whether they did. I'm pretty sure I had told them because I write that to my mom and dad.

[Assistant] And at the summer, when you're working in Denver, uh, up to that point, other than the returned teacher who was a volunteer. Had you met anyone who had been in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was fairly young, you know, which later on acted to my detriment when they finished the program. The training program. And we can get to that.

[Assistant] At that point, what was your family's attitude? Did they know you had applied?

[User] I don't remember whether they did. I'm pretty sure I had told them because I write that to my mom and dad.

[Assistant] And at the summer, when you're working in Denver, uh, up to that point, other than the returned teacher who was a volunteer. Had you met anyone who had been in the Peace Corps?

[User] And hadn't met anybody else who’d been in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] What would you remember your initial reaction when you got a letter from Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember whether they did. I'm pretty sure I had told them because I write that to my mom and dad.

[Assistant] And at the summer, when you're working in Denver, uh, up to that point, other than the returned teacher who was a volunteer. Had you met anyone who had been in the Peace Corps?

[User] And hadn't met anybody else who’d been in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] What would you remember your initial reaction when you got a letter from Peace Corps?

[User] I was just terribly excited because I thought, wow, this is a chance. India. Wow. You know, I had heard so much about India. I'd read a little bit about India. Right. It seemed like a very foreign foreign country to me because of the differences in religions, differences in languages, you know, multiple languages, other side of the world type of thing. And I'd read some stories and accounts of the British Raj and what that was like in India. And I just thought this would be a fantastic thing to go to India and see firsthand what the other side of the world was all about. So I don't think I even hesitated. I just signed it and sent it back and said, of course, I'll go at that point.

[Assistant] Do you recall what your family's reaction was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And hadn't met anybody else who’d been in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] What would you remember your initial reaction when you got a letter from Peace Corps?

[User] I was just terribly excited because I thought, wow, this is a chance. India. Wow. You know, I had heard so much about India. I'd read a little bit about India. Right. It seemed like a very foreign foreign country to me because of the differences in religions, differences in languages, you know, multiple languages, other side of the world type of thing. And I'd read some stories and accounts of the British Raj and what that was like in India. And I just thought this would be a fantastic thing to go to India and see firsthand what the other side of the world was all about. So I don't think I even hesitated. I just signed it and sent it back and said, of course, I'll go at that point.

[Assistant] Do you recall what your family's reaction was?

[User] I don't think they knew until probably the weekend when I went down there and went back home for the weekend and said, hey, guess what, India. They said what? I said, yes, in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] You had no hesitation. I mean, you were in the middle of a college career and working toward a degree.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was just terribly excited because I thought, wow, this is a chance. India. Wow. You know, I had heard so much about India. I'd read a little bit about India. Right. It seemed like a very foreign foreign country to me because of the differences in religions, differences in languages, you know, multiple languages, other side of the world type of thing. And I'd read some stories and accounts of the British Raj and what that was like in India. And I just thought this would be a fantastic thing to go to India and see firsthand what the other side of the world was all about. So I don't think I even hesitated. I just signed it and sent it back and said, of course, I'll go at that point.

[Assistant] Do you recall what your family's reaction was?

[User] I don't think they knew until probably the weekend when I went down there and went back home for the weekend and said, hey, guess what, India. They said what? I said, yes, in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] You had no hesitation. I mean, you were in the middle of a college career and working toward a degree.

[User] I was, but it wasn't as exciting as going to India would be. Uh, I was having a little bit of academic difficulty because I couldn't apply myself as much as I should have at that. I can't remember.

[Assistant] Now, do you remember if at that point the draft was an issue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was, but it wasn't as exciting as going to India would be. Uh, I was having a little bit of academic difficulty because I couldn't apply myself as much as I should have at that. I can't remember.

[Assistant] Now, do you remember if at that point the draft was an issue?

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] It's ‘66.

[User] Well, I know I had to sign up for the draft and I know they were drafting people for Vietnam, right. But that didn't really influence my decision one way or the other.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. It's that era. And that's why I ask.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh.

[Assistant] It's ‘66.

[User] Well, I know I had to sign up for the draft and I know they were drafting people for Vietnam, right. But that didn't really influence my decision one way or the other.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. It's that era. And that's why I ask.

[User] I'm not even sure if I even consciously took that into account in my consideration to go to India. You know, just here was this opportunity, which I felt was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[Assistant] And did what did the invitation say? You're invited to India to work in pig production or just in an agricultural project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I know I had to sign up for the draft and I know they were drafting people for Vietnam, right. But that didn't really influence my decision one way or the other.

[Assistant] Ok, OK. It's that era. And that's why I ask.

[User] I'm not even sure if I even consciously took that into account in my consideration to go to India. You know, just here was this opportunity, which I felt was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[Assistant] And did what did the invitation say? You're invited to India to work in pig production or just in an agricultural project?

[User] I believe they just said in an agricultural production, because when I got to the program, the program was set up with maybe about 50 to 60 men. And about 40 of those were for general agriculture, 10 were for pig production and 10 were for poultry production.

[Assistant] Describe your taking, saying goodbye and leaving Grand Junction. I mean, any second thoughts? Were people, you know, at the station to wave you off or it was just you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not even sure if I even consciously took that into account in my consideration to go to India. You know, just here was this opportunity, which I felt was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[Assistant] And did what did the invitation say? You're invited to India to work in pig production or just in an agricultural project?

[User] I believe they just said in an agricultural production, because when I got to the program, the program was set up with maybe about 50 to 60 men. And about 40 of those were for general agriculture, 10 were for pig production and 10 were for poultry production.

[Assistant] Describe your taking, saying goodbye and leaving Grand Junction. I mean, any second thoughts? Were people, you know, at the station to wave you off or it was just you went?

[User] My parents took me out to dinner the night before I left. But as far as making a big deal of it, I don’t know.

[Assistant] I know friends try to talk you out of it, you know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My parents took me out to dinner the night before I left. But as far as making a big deal of it, I don’t know.

[Assistant] I know friends try to talk you out of it, you know.

[User] Nobody tried to talk about it. Matter of fact, some of my college friends were envious that I was going.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] Because they were, you know, my best friend at the time. He and I were we're looking for excitement in our lives because there was this period of the war was going on and it was just difficult to to go to school knowing that there's a possibility you could be dropped out of school any minute, drive him at least. And he was looking trying to get married. And then when this thing came for India. He said, wow, you know, that's really cool, are you going to go? And I said, yeah.

[Assistant] So we had to report for training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nobody tried to talk about it. Matter of fact, some of my college friends were envious that I was going.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] Because they were, you know, my best friend at the time. He and I were we're looking for excitement in our lives because there was this period of the war was going on and it was just difficult to to go to school knowing that there's a possibility you could be dropped out of school any minute, drive him at least. And he was looking trying to get married. And then when this thing came for India. He said, wow, you know, that's really cool, are you going to go? And I said, yeah.

[Assistant] So we had to report for training.

[User] We trained in Davis, California.

[Assistant] So you flew to Los Angeles?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because they were, you know, my best friend at the time. He and I were we're looking for excitement in our lives because there was this period of the war was going on and it was just difficult to to go to school knowing that there's a possibility you could be dropped out of school any minute, drive him at least. And he was looking trying to get married. And then when this thing came for India. He said, wow, you know, that's really cool, are you going to go? And I said, yeah.

[Assistant] So we had to report for training.

[User] We trained in Davis, California.

[Assistant] So you flew to Los Angeles?

[User] Uh, I think we flew to Sacramento. I can't remember exactly. Davis. t's south of Sacramento and east of San Francisco.

[Assistant] Ok, yeah. Yeah. All right. I know where it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We trained in Davis, California.

[Assistant] So you flew to Los Angeles?

[User] Uh, I think we flew to Sacramento. I can't remember exactly. Davis. t's south of Sacramento and east of San Francisco.

[Assistant] Ok, yeah. Yeah. All right. I know where it is.

[User] And, um, it's kind of interesting because there was this other guy on the airplane about my age and he was a few seats away from me. And he had this book called The Zinzin Road, uh, which I found out later was a book about Peace Corps in West Africa. And I was thinking myself, you know, it's a strange thing for somebody to be reading. Well, we got off the plane and whoever picked us up. There was me. There was this guy and his book and several other people who'd flown in there. And he was laughing kind of at me because. Well, did you see the book I was reading? Why didn't you come say hi and tell me you were going to Peace Corps training?

[Assistant] Do you remember, as the group gathered at Davis? Now, you know, you're no longer in Grand Junction. You're in this whole new world. And there were some 50 other people who are doing the same thing. Inevitably, you know, you sort of match yourself up against the others in the group. Do you recall your reaction to the group and now you're becoming part of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, it's kind of interesting because there was this other guy on the airplane about my age and he was a few seats away from me. And he had this book called The Zinzin Road, uh, which I found out later was a book about Peace Corps in West Africa. And I was thinking myself, you know, it's a strange thing for somebody to be reading. Well, we got off the plane and whoever picked us up. There was me. There was this guy and his book and several other people who'd flown in there. And he was laughing kind of at me because. Well, did you see the book I was reading? Why didn't you come say hi and tell me you were going to Peace Corps training?

[Assistant] Do you remember, as the group gathered at Davis? Now, you know, you're no longer in Grand Junction. You're in this whole new world. And there were some 50 other people who are doing the same thing. Inevitably, you know, you sort of match yourself up against the others in the group. Do you recall your reaction to the group and now you're becoming part of it?

[User] Um, there were a couple of interesting things that happened. First thing I noticed when I walked into the building. We actually stayed in an old bracero camp, uh, maybe about three miles outside the city of Davis itself.

[Assistant] Presaro?

[User] Bracero, the guest worker program for Mexicans. And I walked in and it was my college roommate from the University of Colorado. And of course, we had this big, you know, what are you doing here?

[Assistant] And you didn't know he was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, there were a couple of interesting things that happened. First thing I noticed when I walked into the building. We actually stayed in an old bracero camp, uh, maybe about three miles outside the city of Davis itself.

[Assistant] Presaro?

[User] Bracero, the guest worker program for Mexicans. And I walked in and it was my college roommate from the University of Colorado. And of course, we had this big, you know, what are you doing here?

[Assistant] And you didn't know he was?

[User] I had no idea he had applied. Uh, and the sad thing is that within a week, he had decided it wasn't for him and he left. So we never really get a chance to do that. The other thing is that this was mid ‘60s. So we had the Beatles going on and the California beach boy beach bum right thing going on. And where I lived in Colorado, we were relatively sheltered. You know, we we didn't have a lot of people coming in and going out. So when I got to training and I looked at some of the guys who were from California, they had hair that was down to their collars. Oh, what are these guys doing? You know, just because I've never been exposed to that.

[Assistant] Right. So that the first clue.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had no idea he had applied. Uh, and the sad thing is that within a week, he had decided it wasn't for him and he left. So we never really get a chance to do that. The other thing is that this was mid ‘60s. So we had the Beatles going on and the California beach boy beach bum right thing going on. And where I lived in Colorado, we were relatively sheltered. You know, we we didn't have a lot of people coming in and going out. So when I got to training and I looked at some of the guys who were from California, they had hair that was down to their collars. Oh, what are these guys doing? You know, just because I've never been exposed to that.

[Assistant] Right. So that the first clue.

[User] Yeah, they're not Beatles, they’re not singers. They're guys with long hair. And there was another guy who looked like Dennis Hopper. He had hair down almost to his shoulder blades and he looked like Dennis Hopper and he kind of acted like it.

[Assistant] Any beards?

[User] A few. There was one gentleman from New York City, uh uh, beautiful black beard. And when we got to India, or actually during training, we were trained by several Indian nationals who were teaching us language and teaching us customs and culture. And they thought that Charlie looked like the god, Shiva, because most of the pictures you see of Shiva had this tall, strong looking man with a dark beard and came to a point. Yeah, that's exactly what Charlie looked like. So they started calling him Shivaji, Honorable Shiva. So he took it in good, good, good stride. I had a beard when I went there. And I think ever since I got out of high school, I had a beard. So that didn’t bother me.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Cause there were different times where it was an issue with Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they're not Beatles, they’re not singers. They're guys with long hair. And there was another guy who looked like Dennis Hopper. He had hair down almost to his shoulder blades and he looked like Dennis Hopper and he kind of acted like it.

[Assistant] Any beards?

[User] A few. There was one gentleman from New York City, uh uh, beautiful black beard. And when we got to India, or actually during training, we were trained by several Indian nationals who were teaching us language and teaching us customs and culture. And they thought that Charlie looked like the god, Shiva, because most of the pictures you see of Shiva had this tall, strong looking man with a dark beard and came to a point. Yeah, that's exactly what Charlie looked like. So they started calling him Shivaji, Honorable Shiva. So he took it in good, good, good stride. I had a beard when I went there. And I think ever since I got out of high school, I had a beard. So that didn’t bother me.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Cause there were different times where it was an issue with Peace Corps.

[User] They never said anything about hair or beards as far as that goes.

[Assistant] So you're staying at this braceros camp and you how long is the training going to be? Do you have any idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A few. There was one gentleman from New York City, uh uh, beautiful black beard. And when we got to India, or actually during training, we were trained by several Indian nationals who were teaching us language and teaching us customs and culture. And they thought that Charlie looked like the god, Shiva, because most of the pictures you see of Shiva had this tall, strong looking man with a dark beard and came to a point. Yeah, that's exactly what Charlie looked like. So they started calling him Shivaji, Honorable Shiva. So he took it in good, good, good stride. I had a beard when I went there. And I think ever since I got out of high school, I had a beard. So that didn’t bother me.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Cause there were different times where it was an issue with Peace Corps.

[User] They never said anything about hair or beards as far as that goes.

[Assistant] So you're staying at this braceros camp and you how long is the training going to be? Do you have any idea?

[User] I believe the training was for three months. And during that time, we were supposed to refine our skills and whatever of the three different parts of the program we were going into.

[Assistant] Were you designated early for the pig production?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They never said anything about hair or beards as far as that goes.

[Assistant] So you're staying at this braceros camp and you how long is the training going to be? Do you have any idea?

[User] I believe the training was for three months. And during that time, we were supposed to refine our skills and whatever of the three different parts of the program we were going into.

[Assistant] Were you designated early for the pig production?

[User] No, I don't remember when I was designated. It could be that we did it when we got there and he said we need 10 for this and 10 for them to rescue here, or it could be that early on, I said, you know, if I've had experience with pigs and they assigned me, I just don't remember it at this point.

[Assistant] Were there a fair number in the group who had no agricultural background?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe the training was for three months. And during that time, we were supposed to refine our skills and whatever of the three different parts of the program we were going into.

[Assistant] Were you designated early for the pig production?

[User] No, I don't remember when I was designated. It could be that we did it when we got there and he said we need 10 for this and 10 for them to rescue here, or it could be that early on, I said, you know, if I've had experience with pigs and they assigned me, I just don't remember it at this point.

[Assistant] Were there a fair number in the group who had no agricultural background?

[User] Absolutely. We had one kid from Connecticut, Steve Johnson, going into our programs that said, I’ve never seen a live pig outside of a zoo. And what really, really hard to take is that this kid who'd never seen pigs before he got into our program, was the only one who actually got a successful piggery running. So all of us who had experience, we just had too many other problems to get going.

[Assistant] So so you there's some agricultural training. Another component of the training is cross-cultural studies and studying about the country you’re going to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't remember when I was designated. It could be that we did it when we got there and he said we need 10 for this and 10 for them to rescue here, or it could be that early on, I said, you know, if I've had experience with pigs and they assigned me, I just don't remember it at this point.

[Assistant] Were there a fair number in the group who had no agricultural background?

[User] Absolutely. We had one kid from Connecticut, Steve Johnson, going into our programs that said, I’ve never seen a live pig outside of a zoo. And what really, really hard to take is that this kid who'd never seen pigs before he got into our program, was the only one who actually got a successful piggery running. So all of us who had experience, we just had too many other problems to get going.

[Assistant] So so you there's some agricultural training. Another component of the training is cross-cultural studies and studying about the country you’re going to.

[User] Studying about country. We were going to central India.

[Assistant] And so you knew that in advance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. We had one kid from Connecticut, Steve Johnson, going into our programs that said, I’ve never seen a live pig outside of a zoo. And what really, really hard to take is that this kid who'd never seen pigs before he got into our program, was the only one who actually got a successful piggery running. So all of us who had experience, we just had too many other problems to get going.

[Assistant] So so you there's some agricultural training. Another component of the training is cross-cultural studies and studying about the country you’re going to.

[User] Studying about country. We were going to central India.

[Assistant] And so you knew that in advance?

[User] We knew that we were going to go to the state of Maharashtra, which is kind of extends from Bombay to the middle of India. And we knew that we were supposed to learn Marathi, which I think was a sister language to Hindi. So they were trying to teach that.

[Assistant] How intensive was language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Studying about country. We were going to central India.

[Assistant] And so you knew that in advance?

[User] We knew that we were going to go to the state of Maharashtra, which is kind of extends from Bombay to the middle of India. And we knew that we were supposed to learn Marathi, which I think was a sister language to Hindi. So they were trying to teach that.

[Assistant] How intensive was language training?

[User] It was fairly intensive. I think we had two or three classes a day. And the instructors we had both male and female instructors, many of the female instructors had husbands who were either going to school or working at Davis University there. So they were kind of doing like a part time.

[Assistant] Was it said that you were going to be working in the language, not in English, when you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We knew that we were going to go to the state of Maharashtra, which is kind of extends from Bombay to the middle of India. And we knew that we were supposed to learn Marathi, which I think was a sister language to Hindi. So they were trying to teach that.

[Assistant] How intensive was language training?

[User] It was fairly intensive. I think we had two or three classes a day. And the instructors we had both male and female instructors, many of the female instructors had husbands who were either going to school or working at Davis University there. So they were kind of doing like a part time.

[Assistant] Was it said that you were going to be working in the language, not in English, when you got there?

[User] It was implied we need to know the language, so it was fairly intensive.

[Assistant] And did they give you FSR testing, the Foreign Service language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fairly intensive. I think we had two or three classes a day. And the instructors we had both male and female instructors, many of the female instructors had husbands who were either going to school or working at Davis University there. So they were kind of doing like a part time.

[Assistant] Was it said that you were going to be working in the language, not in English, when you got there?

[User] It was implied we need to know the language, so it was fairly intensive.

[Assistant] And did they give you FSR testing, the Foreign Service language?

[User] I don’t believe so.

[Assistant] OK. Another part of training often is medical, and for that, I mean some medical training. Do you recall any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was implied we need to know the language, so it was fairly intensive.

[Assistant] And did they give you FSR testing, the Foreign Service language?

[User] I don’t believe so.

[Assistant] OK. Another part of training often is medical, and for that, I mean some medical training. Do you recall any of that?

[User] We had no medical training per se. We might have had a first aid course, but nothing intensive. And we did not have any physical education at all in our training program. I found out later after I got married that my wife's older sister's husband had been in the Peace Corps. And I think Mexico about a year or so before I had gone in or maybe two years. And we talked about it later. And he said that there were a lot of physical training, things that they had to do. You know, they had to swim in the river.

[Assistant] The camps in Puerto Rico. So, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t believe so.

[Assistant] OK. Another part of training often is medical, and for that, I mean some medical training. Do you recall any of that?

[User] We had no medical training per se. We might have had a first aid course, but nothing intensive. And we did not have any physical education at all in our training program. I found out later after I got married that my wife's older sister's husband had been in the Peace Corps. And I think Mexico about a year or so before I had gone in or maybe two years. And we talked about it later. And he said that there were a lot of physical training, things that they had to do. You know, they had to swim in the river.

[Assistant] The camps in Puerto Rico. So, yeah.

[User] So we really didn't have any of that by late ‘66, early ‘67. That wasn't part of the program anymore.

[Assistant] Not during the three months of training. Did anyone who'd served with the Peace Corps in India come and take part in the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had no medical training per se. We might have had a first aid course, but nothing intensive. And we did not have any physical education at all in our training program. I found out later after I got married that my wife's older sister's husband had been in the Peace Corps. And I think Mexico about a year or so before I had gone in or maybe two years. And we talked about it later. And he said that there were a lot of physical training, things that they had to do. You know, they had to swim in the river.

[Assistant] The camps in Puerto Rico. So, yeah.

[User] So we really didn't have any of that by late ‘66, early ‘67. That wasn't part of the program anymore.

[Assistant] Not during the three months of training. Did anyone who'd served with the Peace Corps in India come and take part in the training?

[User] Yes, we had an older couple, very old and must have been in their 50s, at least at that time. I thought they were ancient. I believe they were from Ohio and they had gone to someplace in India, south India, I believe. Bob was an old Ohio farmer who was working in agriculture and his wife Dorothy was teaching English. And she kind of took over as a substitute mom for all of us. And she made sure that if we were homesick, she had somebody to talk to and she'd take us out. And there was money for, I guess, entertainment and she would make crafts and things for us to do

[Assistant] Would be this is during the training process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we really didn't have any of that by late ‘66, early ‘67. That wasn't part of the program anymore.

[Assistant] Not during the three months of training. Did anyone who'd served with the Peace Corps in India come and take part in the training?

[User] Yes, we had an older couple, very old and must have been in their 50s, at least at that time. I thought they were ancient. I believe they were from Ohio and they had gone to someplace in India, south India, I believe. Bob was an old Ohio farmer who was working in agriculture and his wife Dorothy was teaching English. And she kind of took over as a substitute mom for all of us. And she made sure that if we were homesick, she had somebody to talk to and she'd take us out. And there was money for, I guess, entertainment and she would make crafts and things for us to do

[Assistant] Would be this is during the training process?

[User] During training, when we had like a long weekend and the right thing to do on a Saturday afternoon. You didn't want to go down to the university. You can go in and see Dorothy and she'd give, you know, some something to do that you could work with your hands and just kind of keep your mind off. So it was it was nice to have those people there as part of the training.

[Assistant] Did you tend through the training to stick closer with the other pig production, or was the group just sort of mixed and divided into groups on different sides?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had an older couple, very old and must have been in their 50s, at least at that time. I thought they were ancient. I believe they were from Ohio and they had gone to someplace in India, south India, I believe. Bob was an old Ohio farmer who was working in agriculture and his wife Dorothy was teaching English. And she kind of took over as a substitute mom for all of us. And she made sure that if we were homesick, she had somebody to talk to and she'd take us out. And there was money for, I guess, entertainment and she would make crafts and things for us to do

[Assistant] Would be this is during the training process?

[User] During training, when we had like a long weekend and the right thing to do on a Saturday afternoon. You didn't want to go down to the university. You can go in and see Dorothy and she'd give, you know, some something to do that you could work with your hands and just kind of keep your mind off. So it was it was nice to have those people there as part of the training.

[Assistant] Did you tend through the training to stick closer with the other pig production, or was the group just sort of mixed and divided into groups on different sides?

[User] It was pretty much a mixed group. We didn't really have that distinction. You know, we would have separate portions of training, right? Like the piggery guys would go out to various farms in the neighborhood. We went up to Chico State. And they had a large agricultural program up there.

[Assistant] Was most of the piggery work familiar to you? I mean, to do it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During training, when we had like a long weekend and the right thing to do on a Saturday afternoon. You didn't want to go down to the university. You can go in and see Dorothy and she'd give, you know, some something to do that you could work with your hands and just kind of keep your mind off. So it was it was nice to have those people there as part of the training.

[Assistant] Did you tend through the training to stick closer with the other pig production, or was the group just sort of mixed and divided into groups on different sides?

[User] It was pretty much a mixed group. We didn't really have that distinction. You know, we would have separate portions of training, right? Like the piggery guys would go out to various farms in the neighborhood. We went up to Chico State. And they had a large agricultural program up there.

[Assistant] Was most of the piggery work familiar to you? I mean, to do it.

[User] It's basically. Yeah, but but it went even further than that and it got into the the academic part of it. Which as a general farmer you don't get into all. They gave us this great big thick book on everything you needed to know about raising pigs and talked about the different diseases that talked about inoculations and talked about how to do things from a medical standpoint. Generally, if you're just raising a few pigs at a time, you're not going to do. Yeah, and it really got into the feed of how to create a food that would have all the necessary vitamins by a certain percentage. And I remember we went to Chico State. We talked about the professors there and he showed us how to work all this stuff out. And then we actually had a test. You got all these different types of things. What kind of a mix would you use to try to do for pig? You had to figure out the percentages and write that down.

[Assistant] What was anyone describing the exact job you were going to be doing once you got to India? Or was this all still at the theoretical point?