[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we were going to go to LA and take the bus, I mean, and then fly from LA to Washington, D.C.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But we got to, as far as Mexico City and my sister was as sick as a dog. She'd gotten sick in El Salvador and everything in Mexico was so much more expensive than it had been in the Central America, even though it was much cheaper than the U.S.

[Assistant] Yeah, but still. And you're on a Peace Corps living?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You don't have much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a brand new hotel. Brand new. But, you know, it was obviously a house of prostitution. People were. And we were just like, oh, let's go home. So then we flew to Washington, D.C.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then I spent.

[Assistant] To Washington?

[User] Because that's where her, that's where Gerry was.

[Assistant] That's right. And that's where her boyfriend was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because that's where her, that's where Gerry was.

[Assistant] That's right. And that's where her boyfriend was.

[User] Her boyfriend was, yeah. So then I stayed in Washington. That was in, that was like I think early July, maybe mid-July. And we got married.

[Assistant] Of '73?

[User] Of '73, and then we, I stayed there and then went home. We got married on August 25th, so I must have stayed there about a month. And then went home and we got married in Spokane and then we came down to the Bay Area to look for jobs.

[Assistant] Yeah. And then you have the rest of your life, which won't fit into this particular interview about your Peace Corps. But thinking back on Peace Corps, um, it certainly seems as though those, the experience you had in Honduras would have pointed you in a somewhat of a new direction.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then I, and then I found this program at Berkeley with public health education, which was exactly what I had been doing.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I got my master's there and worked in public health, first for the San Francisco Public Health Department and had some interesting jobs there for about eight years. And then we, um, one of which was at the time that the Southeast Asian refugees were coming in. So I had a really interesting job, which I didn't keep very long because, because I had babies and it was just too hard to work and do everything and commute. But it was a great job, very, where we were essentially, I was working with a public health nurse and we were taking people from the Vietnamese, Hmong, and Cambodian populations and they were going to be health outreach workers in their refugee communities.

[Assistant] Wonderful, wonderful.

[User] And then we moved to Anderson Valley, which is a tiny, rural, isolated community. At the time that we moved there, there were very few Mexican farm workers. There were some. And I got a job as the health educator at this rural public health clinic where I worked for eight years, and then I just got bored with it. In the meantime, the valley just exploded with vineyards and Mexican farmworkers. So I, you know, had this whole new life with Mexicans.

[Assistant] And Spanish was ever so much better having been.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I got my master's there and worked in public health, first for the San Francisco Public Health Department and had some interesting jobs there for about eight years. And then we, um, one of which was at the time that the Southeast Asian refugees were coming in. So I had a really interesting job, which I didn't keep very long because, because I had babies and it was just too hard to work and do everything and commute. But it was a great job, very, where we were essentially, I was working with a public health nurse and we were taking people from the Vietnamese, Hmong, and Cambodian populations and they were going to be health outreach workers in their refugee communities.

[Assistant] Wonderful, wonderful.

[User] And then we moved to Anderson Valley, which is a tiny, rural, isolated community. At the time that we moved there, there were very few Mexican farm workers. There were some. And I got a job as the health educator at this rural public health clinic where I worked for eight years, and then I just got bored with it. In the meantime, the valley just exploded with vineyards and Mexican farmworkers. So I, you know, had this whole new life with Mexicans.

[Assistant] And Spanish was ever so much better having been.

[User] My Spanish. Yeah. And by then I was. And then I, when I got bored with public health education, I decided to get a teaching credential and have been teaching Spanish. I started out doing Spanish and ESL and then pretty much just doing Spanish.

[Assistant] And that's what you're doing now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My Spanish. Yeah. And by then I was. And then I, when I got bored with public health education, I decided to get a teaching credential and have been teaching Spanish. I started out doing Spanish and ESL and then pretty much just doing Spanish.

[Assistant] And that's what you're doing now?

[User] Well, now I'm supposed to be retired. I retired from the high, well and also for four years we went to Hong Kong and I taught at an international school in Hong Kong.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] Which is very totally the antithesis of everything else I've ever done in my life. I mean, Hong Kong is so different. And it was with very wealthy, very privileged kids, but it was pretty fun for four years. And then we came back and so I retired five years ago and then I taught part time at the community college in Ukiah teaching Spanish. And then we went to Mexico to live for a year. And when I came back, I, um, I won't go into all the details, but what I'm doing right now is I'm teaching one class at the high school where kids are getting, it's through the college and kids are getting college credit. I've been doing that for two years, but I really want to be through with the high school. And just last year I started teaching adult ESL.

[Assistant] Oh, that's a joy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's so fun.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So now I have two classes of adult ESL.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] Which I would like to continue doing and not do the high school anymore.

[Assistant] Sure. Sure, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So now I have two classes of adult ESL.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] Which I would like to continue doing and not do the high school anymore.

[Assistant] Sure. Sure, yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Any further thoughts about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Any further thoughts about Peace Corps?

[User] Well, the thing I think about in general. I think what the Peace Corps did for me, besides this professional, setting me on a direction professionally, was that I really is. I really think, and I tell this to kids all the time, you can't know yourself until you have lived outside your own culture. I mean, I really believe that. I, I, everything I look at, I look at differently because of that experience. My whole life was radically changed by that, by living outside my culture.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because you never know how your culture forms you until you live outside it. So you have no choice. You have no control over it. You have no power over it. You just are who your culture and your family make you. I mean, shape you, not make you, shape you. But when you live outside your culture, all of a sudden you realize that, oh. I always tell people, I remember waking up one day when the honeymoon was over and saying to myself, I am completely different than these people in every way. Which of course I wasn't.

[Assistant] Peace Corps talks about culture shock. And that moment there two or three months into being there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the thing I think about in general. I think what the Peace Corps did for me, besides this professional, setting me on a direction professionally, was that I really is. I really think, and I tell this to kids all the time, you can't know yourself until you have lived outside your own culture. I mean, I really believe that. I, I, everything I look at, I look at differently because of that experience. My whole life was radically changed by that, by living outside my culture.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Because you never know how your culture forms you until you live outside it. So you have no choice. You have no control over it. You have no power over it. You just are who your culture and your family make you. I mean, shape you, not make you, shape you. But when you live outside your culture, all of a sudden you realize that, oh. I always tell people, I remember waking up one day when the honeymoon was over and saying to myself, I am completely different than these people in every way. Which of course I wasn't.

[Assistant] Peace Corps talks about culture shock. And that moment there two or three months into being there.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Your eyes open up and you're thinking, whoa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because you never know how your culture forms you until you live outside it. So you have no choice. You have no control over it. You have no power over it. You just are who your culture and your family make you. I mean, shape you, not make you, shape you. But when you live outside your culture, all of a sudden you realize that, oh. I always tell people, I remember waking up one day when the honeymoon was over and saying to myself, I am completely different than these people in every way. Which of course I wasn't.

[Assistant] Peace Corps talks about culture shock. And that moment there two or three months into being there.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Your eyes open up and you're thinking, whoa.

[User] Oh my God. I was like, my concept of time is different. My concept of what it means to be a human, even what it means to be a human being. And my control over my destiny is different. Certainly my concept of what it means to be a woman is different. Then when you've had that experience, you can pick and choose what you want to be. And I tell people, and I've never been on time since.

[Assistant] Ah! Thank you, Kathleen. This has been a real treasure listening to your story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Trench, yes.

[Assistant] I was curious about the interaction between the systems guys like yourself and the people in the trench.

[User] Technically there really wasn’t much interaction. I mean, of course we knew each other, and we usually suffered through their seemingly endless debriefings during simulations, but when we needed to, we’d talk to them. I don’t know. I guess always there was a bit of competition there, but the competition was kind of subtle because there really wasn’t much interface between our particular systems and the flight dynamics guys.\n\n About the only thing we had to do was arrange our water to put it where they wanted the weight, and I don’t know that they even paid much attention to when we vented water back then, but basically that was it. We had to kind of understand. By osmosis you pick up some of the stuff that they do. Of course, on a personal level you knew each other, and sometimes you’d pick on them for lacking so much in brevity. But this was a fairly small organization, Flight Control Division, and so you knew most of those people. That’s about my recollection of it, I mean, without getting into the games they used to play.

[Assistant] Well, I understand if you don’t want to share those.

[User] Yes. I don’t remember that we had any unflattering names for those guys in particular. I don’t know. They were kind of in their world and we were in ours, and the worlds just kind of touched each other peripherally. It wasn’t much, at least from the environmental electrical systems standpoint. The propulsion guys may have had a lot more interface with them, because they relying on the GNC [guidance, navigation, and control] guys, and then GNC was fairly related to those guys. They at least had some kind of understanding of what they were doing there.\n\n Your next question? Did I answer that adequately?

[Assistant] Sure. Well, it just seems that the Mission Control Center, no matter where in the control room you sat, was full of personalities.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I recollect, didn’t we fly a Block One spacecraft before? Didn’t we actually fly a manned Block One or did we not fly one?

[Assistant] No. Apollo 1 was going to be the first time.

[User] Okay. Well, actually the Apollo fire happened while I was working elsewhere. I didn’t actually get in the ECLSS world until then, but, yes, in general you would learn both those. While I was over there, I was learning that system, yes. I don’t really have much recollection of the Block I, though. I guess I’d have to go back and refresh my memory even on Block II, although there’s things I remember about it because I remember the events. There’s things that stick in your mind, for whatever reason. But I guess the short answer is, yes, we would have learned both of them. I went away from that world for a while, and so when I come back, it was Block Two.

[Assistant] While you were away, was this when you were working on some of the early payloads that you had mentioned?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about that year, what sort of work was involved in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Well, actually the Apollo fire happened while I was working elsewhere. I didn’t actually get in the ECLSS world until then, but, yes, in general you would learn both those. While I was over there, I was learning that system, yes. I don’t really have much recollection of the Block I, though. I guess I’d have to go back and refresh my memory even on Block II, although there’s things I remember about it because I remember the events. There’s things that stick in your mind, for whatever reason. But I guess the short answer is, yes, we would have learned both of them. I went away from that world for a while, and so when I come back, it was Block Two.

[Assistant] While you were away, was this when you were working on some of the early payloads that you had mentioned?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about that year, what sort of work was involved in that?

[User] Well, basically, of course, there weren’t many payloads to begin with. Probably we were talking not necessarily—well, even, I don’t know when they got around to flying, but basically we were trying to track down, understand. It was the same type of thing. It was just systems world or at least basically a systems world. We were trying to understand the payload, how it worked, what demand it put on the system, and what the people wanted out of it. Basically so that we could provide the same sort of insight into it or as much as possible as the systems guys did.\n\n The only one I can specifically remember, and I don’t remember what it was, but the American Science and Engineering had a payload that we went up and spent a few days finding out about up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, the section head and I, [T.K.] Sulmeisters. But that’s the only one I recollect, honestly.

[Assistant] These ones that were intended to be integrated with the Apollo spacecraft or used on the lunar surface?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about that year, what sort of work was involved in that?

[User] Well, basically, of course, there weren’t many payloads to begin with. Probably we were talking not necessarily—well, even, I don’t know when they got around to flying, but basically we were trying to track down, understand. It was the same type of thing. It was just systems world or at least basically a systems world. We were trying to understand the payload, how it worked, what demand it put on the system, and what the people wanted out of it. Basically so that we could provide the same sort of insight into it or as much as possible as the systems guys did.\n\n The only one I can specifically remember, and I don’t remember what it was, but the American Science and Engineering had a payload that we went up and spent a few days finding out about up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, the section head and I, [T.K.] Sulmeisters. But that’s the only one I recollect, honestly.

[Assistant] These ones that were intended to be integrated with the Apollo spacecraft or used on the lunar surface?

[User] Well, basically I think they were pretty early stuff like for the Apollo spacecraft itself, not lunar surface things. I don’t think I ever, ever did any work on the LM [lunar module], payloads or otherwise, so it’d be things that would be flown on Apollo spacecraft, the command service module.

[Assistant] Well, thinking about the preparation for Apollo flights, they had the 2TV-1 test of the Apollo command module inside of the space environment simulation laboratory [SESL].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, basically, of course, there weren’t many payloads to begin with. Probably we were talking not necessarily—well, even, I don’t know when they got around to flying, but basically we were trying to track down, understand. It was the same type of thing. It was just systems world or at least basically a systems world. We were trying to understand the payload, how it worked, what demand it put on the system, and what the people wanted out of it. Basically so that we could provide the same sort of insight into it or as much as possible as the systems guys did.\n\n The only one I can specifically remember, and I don’t remember what it was, but the American Science and Engineering had a payload that we went up and spent a few days finding out about up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, the section head and I, [T.K.] Sulmeisters. But that’s the only one I recollect, honestly.

[Assistant] These ones that were intended to be integrated with the Apollo spacecraft or used on the lunar surface?

[User] Well, basically I think they were pretty early stuff like for the Apollo spacecraft itself, not lunar surface things. I don’t think I ever, ever did any work on the LM [lunar module], payloads or otherwise, so it’d be things that would be flown on Apollo spacecraft, the command service module.

[Assistant] Well, thinking about the preparation for Apollo flights, they had the 2TV-1 test of the Apollo command module inside of the space environment simulation laboratory [SESL].

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you work on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, basically I think they were pretty early stuff like for the Apollo spacecraft itself, not lunar surface things. I don’t think I ever, ever did any work on the LM [lunar module], payloads or otherwise, so it’d be things that would be flown on Apollo spacecraft, the command service module.

[Assistant] Well, thinking about the preparation for Apollo flights, they had the 2TV-1 test of the Apollo command module inside of the space environment simulation laboratory [SESL].

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you work on that?

[User] I supported it from the MOD [Mission Operations Directorate] standpoint. It was basically an engineering function, but we did support it.

[Assistant] What did that support involve?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you work on that?

[User] I supported it from the MOD [Mission Operations Directorate] standpoint. It was basically an engineering function, but we did support it.

[Assistant] What did that support involve?

[User] Well, basically just watching what they did. We didn’t really participate in the decision-making or anything like that. We might have discussed it with the folks over there, but basically they’d just give us a seat so we could learn about the way the system worked in that vacuum test.\n\n I think probably there were some things obviously that changed. For example, we originally intended to—the fuel cells produced water. That’s one of the by-products of generating electricity. We stored the water and used it for drinking. It was pure water, other than it might have a little hydrogen in it. But the fuel cells produced more water than the crew could drink, so eventually the tank filled up and we had to get rid of it. The original design, we’d let the tank fill up and as it filled up, we’d just let it dribble overboard. We had a little nozzle, and it dribbled overboard. We found out we’d do that and it froze. So we changed our operating procedure to do periodic dumps.

[Assistant] One of the other things that I had noticed from that test was that I think it was due to the environmental control system that you would get a lot of condensation buildup inside the spacecraft on some of the cooling pipes, for instance, and then they saw that same phenomenon on Apollo 7, and they would occasionally have to vacuum up the water that was around the cabin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I mean, it wasn’t so much, we didn’t really have anything going on, other than that fact that our stuff was—I mean, none of the events that happened happened just then, but still there’s you had the com stuff going on at least you had to deal with.\n\n Anyway, I guess basically what else had to do was we didn’t have a command system for switching the antenna, so we had to voice up to the crew every so often to switch antennas opposite omni. That may have been my participation in that, but anyway, that happened.

[Assistant] The crew’s attitudes, I guess, has become one of the things that Apollo 7’s most well known for now.

[User] I would imagine. I think that that set the tone for practically all the following. Well, I’m speculating now, because I don’t know. You hear rumors about stuff, but it seemed like that there were certain terms were never mentioned again in flight. I don’t think that they ever mentioned certain Disney characters again in flight, at least not in describing actions that it was desired to be done. But I mean beyond that, I don’t know anything about it. I think if I were going to give you my opinion, yes, it was kind of a watershed flight in that regard. But we received no formal information on the results of anything that happened after that.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll leave it at that.

[User] I would be very hesitant to even voice rumors that we heard. I don’t want to do that, if you don’t mind.

[Assistant] Not a problem. One of the other questions before we go on to the rest of the Apollo flights, you had talked about how your branch had become a combination of the Gemini systems and the CSM [Command and Service Module] systems. So I was wondering about the –


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would imagine. I think that that set the tone for practically all the following. Well, I’m speculating now, because I don’t know. You hear rumors about stuff, but it seemed like that there were certain terms were never mentioned again in flight. I don’t think that they ever mentioned certain Disney characters again in flight, at least not in describing actions that it was desired to be done. But I mean beyond that, I don’t know anything about it. I think if I were going to give you my opinion, yes, it was kind of a watershed flight in that regard. But we received no formal information on the results of anything that happened after that.

[Assistant] Well, we’ll leave it at that.

[User] I would be very hesitant to even voice rumors that we heard. I don’t want to do that, if you don’t mind.

[Assistant] Not a problem. One of the other questions before we go on to the rest of the Apollo flights, you had talked about how your branch had become a combination of the Gemini systems and the CSM [Command and Service Module] systems. So I was wondering about the –

[User] Well, when I said that, I mean, actually by that time Gemini was over.

[Assistant] Yes. So I am backing up in time a little bit here. So what I was wondering about is the mixture of people like yourself, who had been studying the Apollo systems, but didn’t necessarily have the console experience, and then the Gemini people coming in to Apollo, who had worked on console for these Gemini flights, but hadn’t necessarily been studying the Apollo systems as closely as some of the other people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would be very hesitant to even voice rumors that we heard. I don’t want to do that, if you don’t mind.

[Assistant] Not a problem. One of the other questions before we go on to the rest of the Apollo flights, you had talked about how your branch had become a combination of the Gemini systems and the CSM [Command and Service Module] systems. So I was wondering about the –

[User] Well, when I said that, I mean, actually by that time Gemini was over.

[Assistant] Yes. So I am backing up in time a little bit here. So what I was wondering about is the mixture of people like yourself, who had been studying the Apollo systems, but didn’t necessarily have the console experience, and then the Gemini people coming in to Apollo, who had worked on console for these Gemini flights, but hadn’t necessarily been studying the Apollo systems as closely as some of the other people.

[User] Well, I don’t recollect any rancor there.

[Assistant] I guess I’m asking what you were able to learn, what each group was able to learn from the other.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don’t recollect any rancor there.

[Assistant] I guess I’m asking what you were able to learn, what each group was able to learn from the other.

[User] That would be kind of hard for me to say because about not long after that, I went off to work this payload thing, so I really wasn’t there much longer. It may have been that formal reorganization that did that, for all I know. I’d have to go back.\n\n One of the things I don’t do well is to—I remember events happening, but I don’t time-tag them, so I can’t tell you exactly when. So basically I was gone a year, so I’m sure that they did. I mean, you could not have not done that. As long as there wasn’t any animosity created or there wasn’t any resentment because these guys come in and became the prime guys for the job you was working for. I didn’t hear of any of that, but, then again, I wasn’t there.\n\n I think basically it was mainly the Gemini guys that started out with the Apollo program, for the most part. I can’t remember. I don’t know where Clint Burton came in. I don’t remember when he came into the thing. But John and Rod, they were both Gemini guys. Initially there was a guy named Dick [Richard D.] Glover, but he went off and did something else. He was the section head for a while, but he went off and did something else before we ever started flying, and Rod took his job. That almost had to be that way, that you had some interplay between the guys. I can’t really tell you whether there was any feuding or not, because I was outside of there at the time.

[Assistant] Okay. You had talked a little bit earlier about Apollo 8, how you weren’t really working it, but you road side saddle, as you described it.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you have any other memories of that flight or even the decision to send Apollo 8 out there without the redundancy of the lunar module?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. John was sent off, taken off. I think he was one of the team—I think we had four teams. I think they pulled one team out of rotation, and they went off and worked it, and we then had three teams. We were there, even though we didn’t have much to do. I don’t know whether it was John’s team. It seemed like Kranz went off to work this thing, possibly, and Sy was on Kranz’s team, but John was pulled off. I think he may have been on [Milton L.] Windler’s team.\n\n We had too many 13s going on in that program, not that I’m superstitious, mind you. But anyway, that’s the way it worked out. We basically didn’t have anything to do until it got ready to enter and do reentry.\n\n You got any other questions you want to ask?

[Assistant] Did you work the reentry on that or powering the command module back up, those critical phases?

[User] You know, I don’t remember. I probably was there, even if I didn’t work it specific. I don’t remember who was prime on the console.

[Assistant] You mentioned a little bit earlier some of the fixes they made because of Apollo 13, or you alluded to them. Did you have any responsibility with that?

[User] No. I was in the control center the whole time. They went off and did that. Engineering went off and did that, and John participated in it, basically.

[Assistant] I guess I meant as a response like adding the extra cryo tank.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] We really appreciate it. I wanted to ask you about your background, if you could give us just an overview and briefly explain how you got involved with the Orion Program.

[User] I’m an active astronaut with the Astronaut Office here at NASA Johnson Space Center. I’ve flown three times in the Space Shuttle. My last flight was STS-135, which was the final Space Shuttle mission. Between missions in the Astronaut Office we take on technical responsibilities or technical jobs we call it. After I got done with the PR [Public Relations] stuff after the end of that mission it was time to find a new technical job. I wanted to come to the Exploration Branch and work potentially on Orion, so I did. Probably in all honesty I really got mostly involved in about March of 2012, when I became the astronaut representative to the Orion Program. As astronaut representative to the Orion Program, I basically represent the interest of the Astronaut Office in the Orion Program and give advice and opinions to the Orion Program on various issues that come up. I’m kind of a part of Mark Geyer’s staff to a certain extent. I represent the Astronaut Office, but I also serve on his staff to help him make decisions for the Program.

[Assistant] What were some of those key issues that you were weighing in on? Do you recall?

[User] They come and go. The main things we’re worried about is the safety of the vehicle. We’re looking more toward the longer term of the vehicles that are going to be human-rated for flying humans on. Exploration Mission-2 mission is the first mission. We’ve been looking at how the test program sets up to prepare for that mission, how the systems are developed, and how safe the systems are that are going to be on that vehicle.\n\n We go through all the different developmental boards and developmental meetings. We have a number of engineers who work for the Astronaut Office who help me out as the Orion rep. They bring issues that they’ve come across to my attention, and we work through those issues.

[Assistant] Can you pick out an issue or two that really stand out in your mind before EFT [Exploration Flight Test]-1?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They come and go. The main things we’re worried about is the safety of the vehicle. We’re looking more toward the longer term of the vehicles that are going to be human-rated for flying humans on. Exploration Mission-2 mission is the first mission. We’ve been looking at how the test program sets up to prepare for that mission, how the systems are developed, and how safe the systems are that are going to be on that vehicle.\n\n We go through all the different developmental boards and developmental meetings. We have a number of engineers who work for the Astronaut Office who help me out as the Orion rep. They bring issues that they’ve come across to my attention, and we work through those issues.

[Assistant] Can you pick out an issue or two that really stand out in your mind before EFT [Exploration Flight Test]-1?

[User] Not necessarily before EFT-1, because EFT-1 system was unmanned. It was the first one, and there’s going to be another unmanned mission. Most of the issues, we’ve basically given them our opinions on them potentially, but we would not get in their way [for the unmanned missions]. If they wanted to take more risk on the first mission, that was fine with us. That helps develop the system. We were just helping along the way and giving our expertise in various things. For the most part trying to let them run as fast as they could because these were unmanned flights.

[Assistant] You had flown three Shuttle missions as you pointed out. What did you bring from the Shuttle Program that you applied to Orion? Was there anything in particular?

[User] Yes, I think it was familiarity with how we did things with the Shuttle. How we handled redundancy, how we handled safety, how we handled operations. How did we launch the crews? How did we recover them? How did we talk to them? All the different aspects of how you deal with the crew in orbit and how you keep them safe. I brought those experiences back to the Orion Program.

[Assistant] Would you talk about some of the key decisions that you think impacted things like development or policy, things of that nature, for Orion.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think it was familiarity with how we did things with the Shuttle. How we handled redundancy, how we handled safety, how we handled operations. How did we launch the crews? How did we recover them? How did we talk to them? All the different aspects of how you deal with the crew in orbit and how you keep them safe. I brought those experiences back to the Orion Program.

[Assistant] Would you talk about some of the key decisions that you think impacted things like development or policy, things of that nature, for Orion.

[User] Some of the things were dealing with—how we made the heat shield. That was a big issue. How that was developed, how it worked out, and how it was tested. I know a lot of the engineers got into a lot more depth than I did, but I visited the Textron plant at least twice that was making the heat shield, actually doing it manually. It was a very labor-intensive process to build that heat shield. There were some issues with the heat shield cracking and things like that they had to deal with. They figured out ways to repair things that weren’t turning out the way they planned. My job, again since it was an unmanned vehicle, was to go up there, understand it, and just show the flag so to speak, just show people that we’re interested. Because eventually we’ll have a heat shield that we’re going to use for a crewed flight.

[Assistant] Did you weigh in on anything like operations or cost?

[User] Not so much for EFT-1, no, but for the follow-on vehicles I have.

[Assistant] Can you talk about your perspective in terms of affordability and this movement toward a lower cost development for Orion. How it’s impacted things, and how it was implemented as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of the things were dealing with—how we made the heat shield. That was a big issue. How that was developed, how it worked out, and how it was tested. I know a lot of the engineers got into a lot more depth than I did, but I visited the Textron plant at least twice that was making the heat shield, actually doing it manually. It was a very labor-intensive process to build that heat shield. There were some issues with the heat shield cracking and things like that they had to deal with. They figured out ways to repair things that weren’t turning out the way they planned. My job, again since it was an unmanned vehicle, was to go up there, understand it, and just show the flag so to speak, just show people that we’re interested. Because eventually we’ll have a heat shield that we’re going to use for a crewed flight.

[Assistant] Did you weigh in on anything like operations or cost?

[User] Not so much for EFT-1, no, but for the follow-on vehicles I have.

[Assistant] Can you talk about your perspective in terms of affordability and this movement toward a lower cost development for Orion. How it’s impacted things, and how it was implemented as well?

[User] In respect to what?

[Assistant] Orion, things have been very tight compared to say earlier programs. How did you see that being implemented?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not so much for EFT-1, no, but for the follow-on vehicles I have.

[Assistant] Can you talk about your perspective in terms of affordability and this movement toward a lower cost development for Orion. How it’s impacted things, and how it was implemented as well?

[User] In respect to what?

[Assistant] Orion, things have been very tight compared to say earlier programs. How did you see that being implemented?

[User] It’s a challenge to try to do things cheaper. A lot of times that can impact safety. We just try to say “Hey, [here] are the changes they’re trying to make, do we think they impact safety to a significant degree.” Not having enough money to test things early is a significant hurdle we have to get over. For instance the first three missions, EFT-1, EM [Exploration Mission]-1, EM-2, it’s a stair-step fashion. [EFT-1 was] a very basic vehicle. [It didn’t] have a lot of systems on it. EM-1 has some of the systems but still doesn’t have all the life support systems that a crew member would go. You couldn’t put a crew member on EM-1. EM-2 has all the systems.\n\n If you had a normal funding profile or a robust funding profile, what you’d do is you’d have EM-1, the first Orion to fly on SLS [Space Launch System], you’d have that be almost identical to EM-2, the second mission, which has the crew on it, because you want to test everything before you get the crew on there. But we can’t do that because we don’t have the money and the time to develop all those things in time for EM-1 at this point. So it’s a challenge. We try to make sure that the testing of the things that don’t fly on EM-1 are tested out on the ground adequately but with a reduced funding profile it’s a challenge.

[Assistant] Do you have any concerns as a crew member that those things aren’t being tested sufficiently?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Due to cost and schedule, yes. To make the change would have been expensive. We’re trying to do it now a time where it would be cost-effective and not hit the schedule too bad. We’ll see where it ends up.

[Assistant] There’s an interesting quote from Mark Geyer. He said, “We learned to persevere,” meaning the Orion Program. Would you agree with that or disagree?

[User] Oh yes, persevere from a financial standpoint I think. We were constantly being asked to do what we needed to do with less. What could we give up? The funding profile as I understand it, they can tell you better than I can. I’m not expert at it, but the funding profile is pretty flat. Normally with a research and development program like this you have a funding profile that goes up high at the beginning when you’re doing the research and development, and then it stabilizes. Here we’re trying to build this whole thing with a fairly flat funding profile, and it’s not easy. We did learn to persevere.

[Assistant] It’s a big challenge. I understand that this was a multi-Center program management model. Did you do work with other Centers?

[User] Yes, a little bit with Glenn Research Center [Cleveland, Ohio] when they worked on the propulsion system and European service module. We worked with them a little bit.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to go over to Europe and then also to Ohio?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, persevere from a financial standpoint I think. We were constantly being asked to do what we needed to do with less. What could we give up? The funding profile as I understand it, they can tell you better than I can. I’m not expert at it, but the funding profile is pretty flat. Normally with a research and development program like this you have a funding profile that goes up high at the beginning when you’re doing the research and development, and then it stabilizes. Here we’re trying to build this whole thing with a fairly flat funding profile, and it’s not easy. We did learn to persevere.

[Assistant] It’s a big challenge. I understand that this was a multi-Center program management model. Did you do work with other Centers?

[User] Yes, a little bit with Glenn Research Center [Cleveland, Ohio] when they worked on the propulsion system and European service module. We worked with them a little bit.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to go over to Europe and then also to Ohio?

[User] Yes, we went to the preliminary design review of the ESA service module, the European service module.

[Assistant] You played the same role there that you did at the contractor facilities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a little bit with Glenn Research Center [Cleveland, Ohio] when they worked on the propulsion system and European service module. We worked with them a little bit.

[Assistant] Did you have a chance to go over to Europe and then also to Ohio?

[User] Yes, we went to the preliminary design review of the ESA service module, the European service module.

[Assistant] You played the same role there that you did at the contractor facilities?

[User] Not too much there. Most of that was just technical meetings to just go over the technical baseline of what they planned on doing and get our comments in about what we thought of the design.

[Assistant] While you were in this role we had a presidential election. Did you play any role in going to Congress or talking with any members about the importance of the Orion Project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we went to the preliminary design review of the ESA service module, the European service module.

[Assistant] You played the same role there that you did at the contractor facilities?

[User] Not too much there. Most of that was just technical meetings to just go over the technical baseline of what they planned on doing and get our comments in about what we thought of the design.

[Assistant] While you were in this role we had a presidential election. Did you play any role in going to Congress or talking with any members about the importance of the Orion Project?

[User] Mostly we did that during our postflight of STS-135, so that was back in 2011. After each mission we usually send the crews back to Washington, DC, to go to [NASA] Headquarters and to do a White House visit potentially, if that can be arranged. We also go up to the Hill and we talk to the congressmen and senators and just tell them about our flight. We’re able to speak our mind about how important we think the future programs are. We did a lot of that during our postflight visits. I’m trying to think if we did any outreach since then. Not a lot, but occasionally we will do stuff like that, but we didn’t have to testify in Congress or anything. Most of it is more informal.

[Assistant] Any meetings with [U.S. Senator Richard] Shelby or [U.S. Senator] Bill Nelson?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not too much there. Most of that was just technical meetings to just go over the technical baseline of what they planned on doing and get our comments in about what we thought of the design.

[Assistant] While you were in this role we had a presidential election. Did you play any role in going to Congress or talking with any members about the importance of the Orion Project?

[User] Mostly we did that during our postflight of STS-135, so that was back in 2011. After each mission we usually send the crews back to Washington, DC, to go to [NASA] Headquarters and to do a White House visit potentially, if that can be arranged. We also go up to the Hill and we talk to the congressmen and senators and just tell them about our flight. We’re able to speak our mind about how important we think the future programs are. We did a lot of that during our postflight visits. I’m trying to think if we did any outreach since then. Not a lot, but occasionally we will do stuff like that, but we didn’t have to testify in Congress or anything. Most of it is more informal.

[Assistant] Any meetings with [U.S. Senator Richard] Shelby or [U.S. Senator] Bill Nelson?

[User] We did meet Bill Nelson when the EFT-1 vehicle came down to the Kennedy Space Center [Florida], when the shell just got to the Kennedy Space Center, before they started outfitting it. Bill Nelson was down there with a lot of the program managers and Charlie [Charles F.] Bolden, so he was down there at the same time. We interacted with him a little bit there.

[Assistant] What do you know about NASA’s alliance and agreements with ESA to build the service module and have that partnership? Can you share some details with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One of the main ones is how difficult it is to recover the vehicle in the ocean. They were doing it very methodically and took their time to do it. Recovering that vehicle was not easy. We have to look at ways we can recover it quicker, because we don’t want the crew to sit in that vehicle for a long time in the ocean, because you can get seasick very very quickly sitting in that vehicle after you’ve been in space for several days. We got to nail that down. I think people understand that. We’re putting a lot of renewed attention on the recovery of the vehicle.

[Assistant] How much attention was given to the Apollo Program lessons learned and Shuttle Program, the history? Did you go back and look at those things?

[User] A lot of it, especially with recovery, that’s one place where the Apollo Program was very helpful. How did they do it? What lessons did they learn? We still have some of the engineers around who worked that Program and worked Shuttle obviously too. There’s a lot of us around from that.\n\n We do try to make sure we make informed decisions of, “Hey, what did people do in the past.” That’s another way we compare stuff. We talk about safety and redundancy. What are the historical systems? How did they handle the propulsion system? How did they handle the recovery systems? How did Apollo handle the heat shield? We try to really learn from the lessons that they learned.

[Assistant]
I’m going to ask Sandra if she has any questions for you.

Yes. Just touching on that. Like you said, when they landed they did have problems with the uprighting system.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] That could have led to problems if there had been humans on board. I know they have been working on that and going back to look at Apollo. You mentioned the life support systems earlier, not being on EM-1, then on EM-2. Are they taking those lessons learned from the other programs and Shuttle? You mentioned that that was a concern. I guess how much are they looking at these previous programs with those life support systems and applying it to make sure that it’s something that they feel is going to work right the first time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s a good question. I’d have to know when it arrived at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] the first time. I could look back on that somehow. I would estimate a couple years almost. Let’s think about it now. We’ll do it backwards. Right now the EM-1 is at the Cape already. It’s a good two years from flying. It can be about two years or so.

[Assistant] What building are they doing that in?

[User] The O&C Building, the Operations and Checkout Facility. When I first flew in space our payload was S0, the central portion of the truss. It was being checked out in the O&C Building, right underneath crew quarters. I remember I’d stay in crew quarters, and we’d go down and look at it. Now Orion was being processed in the O&C Building, that’s pretty neat. Same building and process. We just move on. It’s amazing. If you work long enough on these projects you see the progress that’s made. I remember when the Space Station Processing Facility was just full of Space Station hardware, especially after Columbia, just waiting to get launched. All of a sudden it all gets cleared out and it’s all up in space and put together and is working like a champ.

[Assistant]
It’s amazing.

You’re still an active astronaut?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So do you have plans to be in the crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The O&C Building, the Operations and Checkout Facility. When I first flew in space our payload was S0, the central portion of the truss. It was being checked out in the O&C Building, right underneath crew quarters. I remember I’d stay in crew quarters, and we’d go down and look at it. Now Orion was being processed in the O&C Building, that’s pretty neat. Same building and process. We just move on. It’s amazing. If you work long enough on these projects you see the progress that’s made. I remember when the Space Station Processing Facility was just full of Space Station hardware, especially after Columbia, just waiting to get launched. All of a sudden it all gets cleared out and it’s all up in space and put together and is working like a champ.

[Assistant]
It’s amazing.

You’re still an active astronaut?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So do you have plans to be in the crew?

[User] It’s a possibility, but I’ve flown three times. It’s probably unlikely I’ll get a chance to fly again.

[Assistant] But you’d like to though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So do you have plans to be in the crew?

[User] It’s a possibility, but I’ve flown three times. It’s probably unlikely I’ll get a chance to fly again.

[Assistant] But you’d like to though.

[User] Yes, I would like to fly again. Now whether my family would like me to fly again is a different story.

[Assistant]
That’s always a good question.

Are you still working Orion issues here in Flight Ops?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a possibility, but I’ve flown three times. It’s probably unlikely I’ll get a chance to fly again.

[Assistant] But you’d like to though.

[User] Yes, I would like to fly again. Now whether my family would like me to fly again is a different story.

[Assistant]
That’s always a good question.

Are you still working Orion issues here in Flight Ops?

[User] Yes. In this position now I’ve moved over from the Astronaut Office, and I’m the Assistant Director for Operations. BK [Brian K. Kelly], who’s the Chief of Flight Operations Directorate, I’m his astronaut to work various issues from an operations perspective, if it’s ISS, Orion, Commercial Crew. It’s a lot of fun. I get to work a lot of different stuff, but I also get pulled into a lot of the Orion discussions. “Hey, you were in on this, what do you think about this?” It’s fun.

[Assistant] We thank you very much for your time today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. The fact is, most of them ended up in my branch. Gene [L. Eugene] Lundgren, Bill [William M.] Schroeder, Charlie [Charles H.] Provine, I think Warner, a guy by the name of Fred [Frederick W.] Warner. They all worked for NASA. Well, they worked for the Corps of Engineers over at Roswell [New Mexico]. And then when the Corps of Engineers came over to do the job west of the mountains, they came with them, but they went ahead and went to work for NASA, but they were with the Corps. It was kind of confusing because here they were NASA employees, and they were actually overseeing the construction for the Corps. And then as soon as they would turn them over to the facilities, the guy that was responsible for that system in the Corps, he was NASA, he would transfer over to my branch. So it was a little bit of a problem.\n\n When they finally completed the system, that is when they went in and formed another branch, the Facilities Branch.

[Assistant] When was the facility finally complete? When were you rid of this four-headed monster that you talk about?

[User] I would guess 1966, maybe [latter part of] ’65. As I said before we started, I can remember most of the things that happened. I just can’t remember when they happened.

[Assistant] Oh, certainly. Certainly. We all have that problem.

[User] So it was probably ’65 or possibly early ’66, but probably ’65.

[Assistant] Describe for us the Army’s relationship with the White Sands Test Facility during the Apollo Program. Did they provide any administrative support, for instance, for the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would guess 1966, maybe [latter part of] ’65. As I said before we started, I can remember most of the things that happened. I just can’t remember when they happened.

[Assistant] Oh, certainly. Certainly. We all have that problem.

[User] So it was probably ’65 or possibly early ’66, but probably ’65.

[Assistant] Describe for us the Army’s relationship with the White Sands Test Facility during the Apollo Program. Did they provide any administrative support, for instance, for the program?

[User] For other groups, they may have provided more than they did the Mechanical Systems Branch. From the Mechanical Systems Branch’s viewpoint or standpoint, we were practically independent. We didn’t require support from WSMR, although eventually or through the years—I don’t remember it being right at first, but through the years we probably both supported each other, and the fact is, if you needed a crane, a heavy crane, we had one, but if we needed two to, say, lift some of our altitude chambers, we would borrow a crane temporarily for three days or something. And likewise, we would send equipment over to them whenever they needed it. So we supported one another.\n\n They didn’t do any paperwork functions for us. We were entirely independent that way. They would clean the highway when it snowed. It doesn’t happen very often, but the mountain pass gets snowed in, and sometimes down to where the NASA facility was, so we relied on them to keep our roads clear. But other than that, we were pretty independent.

[Assistant] Was the relationship between the Army and the test facility positive at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was probably ’65 or possibly early ’66, but probably ’65.

[Assistant] Describe for us the Army’s relationship with the White Sands Test Facility during the Apollo Program. Did they provide any administrative support, for instance, for the program?

[User] For other groups, they may have provided more than they did the Mechanical Systems Branch. From the Mechanical Systems Branch’s viewpoint or standpoint, we were practically independent. We didn’t require support from WSMR, although eventually or through the years—I don’t remember it being right at first, but through the years we probably both supported each other, and the fact is, if you needed a crane, a heavy crane, we had one, but if we needed two to, say, lift some of our altitude chambers, we would borrow a crane temporarily for three days or something. And likewise, we would send equipment over to them whenever they needed it. So we supported one another.\n\n They didn’t do any paperwork functions for us. We were entirely independent that way. They would clean the highway when it snowed. It doesn’t happen very often, but the mountain pass gets snowed in, and sometimes down to where the NASA facility was, so we relied on them to keep our roads clear. But other than that, we were pretty independent.

[Assistant] Was the relationship between the Army and the test facility positive at that time?

[User] Yes, I think it was always positive. Might not have been between the general and the manager, but as far as the people, the working people, most of them came from White Sands Missile Range, so there was a good relationship.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you provided support for the Apollo Program. Can you talk about the support that you specifically provided for this program, to land a man on the Moon? I know that you won, for instance, an award for testing the Apollo Program propulsion systems, but you mentioned that you primarily worked on support.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Our branch was responsible for it. We were the ones that designed all the test cells, and we designed the test cells first, and I would say that probably took six months. Then immediately upon the completion of that, we started testing remotely, and the fact is, from another building about 100 yards away, and that wasn’t very convenient, so we got additional funds to build a building right up next to the test cells. So that took, by the time we went through contracts, it probably took a total of a year and a half to finalize it. But we got the test cells themselves where we could still do the remote testing, I would say within six months.

[Assistant] I’ve read that the White Sands Test Facility has actually tested 90 percent of everything that flew in Apollo and Space Shuttle.

[User] I think that it was easily that much. Maybe 95. I don’t know.

[Assistant] Pretty impressive record.

[User] They did a good job for them, I think. I think White Sands did a good job for MSC in that area.

[Assistant] You mentioned, just a few minutes ago, issues about safety. Could you talk about the safety program at White Sands Test Facility during the Apollo Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] During our last interview, we ended by talking about your first flight, STS-41D, and today I’d like to talk about what you did between STS-41D and your next flight, 61C.

[User] Okay. I was lucky enough to get assigned to be assistant to Mr. [George W. S.] Abbey, who was at the time Director of Flight Crew Operations. So I spent my time in Building 1, and basically being his assistant.\n\n It was interesting for a number of reasons, but in particular it was really my first exposure to kind of what goes on outside my organization. I had pretty much been working exclusively within the organization, within the Astronaut Office, and the things that we did at the Cape [Canaveral, Florida, Kennedy Space Center] and elsewhere, but I wasn’t really too familiar with a lot of the other senior managers at the center or what their organizations did, and so I was just lucky and felt fortunate that he had given me the chance to come up and do that. So it was a good broadening experience. And seeing how he did business as well, running FCOD [Flight Crew Operations Directorate].

[Assistant] So you did that until you were assigned, or were you already assigned?

[User] No, I did that till I was assigned again. I was kind of—I don’t remember—seems like it was probably in the fall of [19]‘84, so I guess I did that—I didn’t have to do that too long before I got reassigned. And then, of course, I continued in that assignment till it was time to actually leave and go back to training. So just because you get an assignment doesn’t mean that you drop everything and start training full time. But it’s nice to know you’ve got one coming.

[Assistant] Right. So you were assigned to 61C.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, with the exception in those days, we were flying payload specialists more commonly than we do today, and sometimes the payload specialists would stay with the payload. In fact, of course, that was in many reasons why the payload specialists were flying, was for a specific payload. In fact, I remember we trained for a while with [Gregory B.] Greg Jarvis when we thought we were going to be flying with him, but the five NASA individuals stayed together.

[Assistant] And along with those five NASA individuals, you had Congressman [Clarence William].

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Who was going to fly on this one.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And, as you said, I think Greg Jarvis was assigned at first—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Who was going to fly on this one.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And, as you said, I think Greg Jarvis was assigned at first—

[User] For a while—

[Assistant] And then he switched out—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And, as you said, I think Greg Jarvis was assigned at first—

[User] For a while—

[Assistant] And then he switched out—

[User] Yes, and, and then we had [Robert J.] Bob Cenker, who was an RCA [Radio Corporation of America] engineer, who was flying, because they were flying, as I remember, some cameras, some payload bay cameras that flew—we also had, I think, an RCA satellite on board. So we had two payload specialists, Bob Cenker and Bill Nelson.

[Assistant] Well, how was it having a U.S.representative on this flight, assigned to this flight? Did it affect your training, or did it affect the mission in any way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For a while—

[Assistant] And then he switched out—

[User] Yes, and, and then we had [Robert J.] Bob Cenker, who was an RCA [Radio Corporation of America] engineer, who was flying, because they were flying, as I remember, some cameras, some payload bay cameras that flew—we also had, I think, an RCA satellite on board. So we had two payload specialists, Bob Cenker and Bill Nelson.

[Assistant] Well, how was it having a U.S.representative on this flight, assigned to this flight? Did it affect your training, or did it affect the mission in any way?

[User] The answer, most certainly, is sure. [Laughs] I guess it affected the training in some ways, because I don’t remember exactly when he was assigned, but it seems to me he was assigned fairly late in the flow. So he had a lot of catching up to do, and so it affected the crew training from that point of view. He also, of course, didn’t come to the flight with any experience like we did, I mean didn’t have ops experience, didn’t have previous spaceflight experience, and so it took resources from the crew to help Bill get through some of the training and keep an eye on him, and make sure his experience was going to be safe and successful.\n\n He also had demands on his time because he was still in office, and I remember he was going back to Washington [D.C.]. I assume that he went back only as often as he absolutely had to, because I’m sure he would have preferred to stay and train with us, but he was gone some, and I remember that was kind of a scheduling issue, to try to work around his schedule.\n\n Let’s see. Did you ask me—what was the other part of the question?

[Assistant] Well, just how it affected your training and the flight itself, I mean, having him onboard.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, the flight itself. Yes, it’s actually kind of interesting, because we all suspected, although no one ever said, that because of the delays that we got into and the fact that, frankly, our payload [complement] wasn’t very robust, that were it not for his presence on the flight, we might have been canceled. We had one satellite and some other experiments. It was almost, as I recall, kind of a clearinghouse sale, if you will. I mean, we had a lot of GAS [Getaway Special] cans [canisters] and Hitchhiker payloads and a bunch of stuff that hadn’t been able to fly previously, and here came a flight that for whatever reason that I don’t remember, we only had one satellite and nothing else on board, so they were able to put some of this other stuff, which was important in that they had commitments, but in the great scheme of things, after we got into delays, you could conceive of somebody saying, “Well, you know, I’ll bet we can put that satellite somewhere else and just not fly this flight.” We wondered about that and always thought, without knowing for sure, that that might have happened if we hadn’t had a congressman, but this was his flight, and so we had some guarantee that it would happen.

[Assistant] You’d get to go up one way or the other.

[User] That’s what we thought, yes.

[Assistant] Well, as you mentioned, you had several delays. You had seven delays on this flight. What did you do during those times, I mean in between the delays? I mean, did you just continue to train? I think the flight originally was scheduled at some time in December and then—

[User] Right, December 17th or 18th, as I recall, and then—

[Assistant] And it was a month later before you flew.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about that for a minute?

[User] The only thing I really remember about that is that as hard as it was to launch, it seemed to be equally hard to land. We were supposed to be the first flight to go back to KSC [Kennedy Space Center] after [Karol J.] Bo Bobko had blown a tire on 51-D, and the weather just didn’t cooperate. So they kept waving us off and making us wait another day to try to get back into KSC.\n\n And what I remember is that by the third day we had sort of run out of most everything, including film, and part of our training had been to look for spiral eddies near the equator, because the theory was, for whatever reason you didn’t see them near the equator, and Charlie was looking out the window and claimed to see one, and I told him, “Well, you’d better draw a picture of it, because we don’t have any film.” So we couldn’t take a photograph. But we were pretty much out of everything by then the end of the flight.

[Assistant] So you just drew pictures of spiral eddies?

[User] So we drew pictures of spiral eddies. That’s all we had.

[Assistant] And waited to land.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only thing I really remember about that is that as hard as it was to launch, it seemed to be equally hard to land. We were supposed to be the first flight to go back to KSC [Kennedy Space Center] after [Karol J.] Bo Bobko had blown a tire on 51-D, and the weather just didn’t cooperate. So they kept waving us off and making us wait another day to try to get back into KSC.\n\n And what I remember is that by the third day we had sort of run out of most everything, including film, and part of our training had been to look for spiral eddies near the equator, because the theory was, for whatever reason you didn’t see them near the equator, and Charlie was looking out the window and claimed to see one, and I told him, “Well, you’d better draw a picture of it, because we don’t have any film.” So we couldn’t take a photograph. But we were pretty much out of everything by then the end of the flight.

[Assistant] So you just drew pictures of spiral eddies?

[User] So we drew pictures of spiral eddies. That’s all we had.

[Assistant] And waited to land.

[User] Yep, waited to land.

[Assistant] So you finally did land on that one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we drew pictures of spiral eddies. That’s all we had.

[Assistant] And waited to land.

[User] Yep, waited to land.

[Assistant] So you finally did land on that one.

[User] Yes, and that was finally in California.

[Assistant] Well, not long after you landed, the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident happened. Do you remember where you were and what you were doing during that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep, waited to land.

[Assistant] So you finally did land on that one.

[User] Yes, and that was finally in California.

[Assistant] Well, not long after you landed, the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident happened. Do you remember where you were and what you were doing during that?

[User] Yes, I do. I was, in fact, in Topeka, Kansas. I had been invited up after the flight to participate in Kansas Day, which is the 29th of January anniversary of Kansas’s statehood. So I was up there at the request of the governor, and I was going to do some speaking and go to the ball. I had just flown into the air base in Topeka, and they had actually let me go in the VIP room there and watch the launch on TV while I was waiting for—I don’t know if I was waiting for a ride, wherever I was going. So I was there when it happened.\n\n Right afterwards, we were all recalled to Houston, and I remember Joe [H.] Engel flew up and picked me up, and we flew back.

[Assistant] Your father was actually asked by the astronauts to speak at the Memorial.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and that was finally in California.

[Assistant] Well, not long after you landed, the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident happened. Do you remember where you were and what you were doing during that?

[User] Yes, I do. I was, in fact, in Topeka, Kansas. I had been invited up after the flight to participate in Kansas Day, which is the 29th of January anniversary of Kansas’s statehood. So I was up there at the request of the governor, and I was going to do some speaking and go to the ball. I had just flown into the air base in Topeka, and they had actually let me go in the VIP room there and watch the launch on TV while I was waiting for—I don’t know if I was waiting for a ride, wherever I was going. So I was there when it happened.\n\n Right afterwards, we were all recalled to Houston, and I remember Joe [H.] Engel flew up and picked me up, and we flew back.

[Assistant] Your father was actually asked by the astronauts to speak at the Memorial.

[User] Yes, George [Abbey], I think, had asked me if he would do that. So, yes, he was here as part of the memorial service on site. President [Ronald W.] Reagan and the Administrator came, and my dad was part of that.

[Assistant] I imagine that was an honor for him to be asked.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I do. I was, in fact, in Topeka, Kansas. I had been invited up after the flight to participate in Kansas Day, which is the 29th of January anniversary of Kansas’s statehood. So I was up there at the request of the governor, and I was going to do some speaking and go to the ball. I had just flown into the air base in Topeka, and they had actually let me go in the VIP room there and watch the launch on TV while I was waiting for—I don’t know if I was waiting for a ride, wherever I was going. So I was there when it happened.\n\n Right afterwards, we were all recalled to Houston, and I remember Joe [H.] Engel flew up and picked me up, and we flew back.

[Assistant] Your father was actually asked by the astronauts to speak at the Memorial.

[User] Yes, George [Abbey], I think, had asked me if he would do that. So, yes, he was here as part of the memorial service on site. President [Ronald W.] Reagan and the Administrator came, and my dad was part of that.

[Assistant] I imagine that was an honor for him to be asked.

[User] Yes, it really was, and I think he still feels very honored and grateful to have had the opportunity to participate in something like that. A lot of the guys in the class had gotten to meet him, so it was, I think, of some comfort to have somebody involved that a lot of the astronauts had known. He had met a lot of them, so he had some kind of kinship with the bunch at the time.

[Assistant] In [19]‘87, as part of the recovery after\n\n Challenger\n\n , the STS 61-C crew, you supported the countdown demonstration test for the\n\n Atlantis\n\n .


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, George [Abbey], I think, had asked me if he would do that. So, yes, he was here as part of the memorial service on site. President [Ronald W.] Reagan and the Administrator came, and my dad was part of that.

[Assistant] I imagine that was an honor for him to be asked.

[User] Yes, it really was, and I think he still feels very honored and grateful to have had the opportunity to participate in something like that. A lot of the guys in the class had gotten to meet him, so it was, I think, of some comfort to have somebody involved that a lot of the astronauts had known. He had met a lot of them, so he had some kind of kinship with the bunch at the time.

[Assistant] In [19]‘87, as part of the recovery after\n\n Challenger\n\n , the STS 61-C crew, you supported the countdown demonstration test for the\n\n Atlantis\n\n .

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you describe that for us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it really was, and I think he still feels very honored and grateful to have had the opportunity to participate in something like that. A lot of the guys in the class had gotten to meet him, so it was, I think, of some comfort to have somebody involved that a lot of the astronauts had known. He had met a lot of them, so he had some kind of kinship with the bunch at the time.

[Assistant] In [19]‘87, as part of the recovery after\n\n Challenger\n\n , the STS 61-C crew, you supported the countdown demonstration test for the\n\n Atlantis\n\n .

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you describe that for us?

[User] Yes, well, I think what they were really trying to do was, because it had been a while and probably would be a while yet before we flew anything, they wanted to process the vehicle kind of through the flow and get it out to the pad, and practice the countdown, and so that everybody could kind of rehearse the skills that they would need once we returned to flight. George asked or assigned—I don’t know that George ever asked—he probably directed us as the last crew to fly to go down and participate as the crew for that practice countdown. And we were happy to do that, and that was kind of a nice experience, to go down and be part of the team again.

[Assistant] Well, since you were the last crew to fly before\n\n Challenger\n\n , what procedures had changed with this test compared to—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you describe that for us?

[User] Yes, well, I think what they were really trying to do was, because it had been a while and probably would be a while yet before we flew anything, they wanted to process the vehicle kind of through the flow and get it out to the pad, and practice the countdown, and so that everybody could kind of rehearse the skills that they would need once we returned to flight. George asked or assigned—I don’t know that George ever asked—he probably directed us as the last crew to fly to go down and participate as the crew for that practice countdown. And we were happy to do that, and that was kind of a nice experience, to go down and be part of the team again.

[Assistant] Well, since you were the last crew to fly before\n\n Challenger\n\n , what procedures had changed with this test compared to—

[User] I don’t know that really any procedures had changed. During that time, the whole program was looking at a whole bunch of things in terms of how to improve the safety of the system. So there were a lot of design changes, engineering changes, procedural changes that were being incorporated in the program before return to flight. But this test really was just an opportunity for the team to get back to thinking about launch procedures so they wouldn’t become rusty, and I thought that was a valuable thing to do, the close-out crews and the launch team getting to go through their procedures. I think the countdown itself was pretty much the way it had always been. It was just a chance to kind of remember and get re-familiar with the procedures.

[Assistant] Also, after\n\n Challenger\n\n , you took part in Sally [K.] Ride’s task force.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we helped write that.

[Assistant] Did you?

[User] Yes. Those of us that were—a lot of that was, you know, a lot of that report writing is done by the staff, and then the members kind of critique it. So some of the stuff I remember writing myself.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] Yes, I don’t remember how much of it survived.

[Assistant] What parts of it do you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Those of us that were—a lot of that was, you know, a lot of that report writing is done by the staff, and then the members kind of critique it. So some of the stuff I remember writing myself.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] Yes, I don’t remember how much of it survived.

[Assistant] What parts of it do you—

[User] I don’t really remember. Probably a lot of the parts about—it addressed some things that were not—I guess I’d put it this way. The chairman felt that it was appropriate to look not only at the specifics of that accident, but other things that his group might want to say about safety in the program, and that included, among other things, the role of astronauts in the program, and that was one of the places where I think I contributed, was how astronauts ought to be involved in the program.\n\n I remember one of the recommendations of the committee—I don’t think I was responsible for this one—but talked about elevating the director, the position of director of FCOD, because at the time of the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident, he was not a direct report to the center director. That had been a change that had been made sometime earlier. I don’t remember exactly when. And that commission felt that the guy that was head of the organization with the astronauts should be a direct report to the center director. So several people went back to Houston and put George’s desk up on blocks in an attempt to elevate his position. [Laughter] I think he left it there for some period of time, as far as I can remember.

[Assistant] Enjoyed the elevation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I don’t remember how much of it survived.

[Assistant] What parts of it do you—

[User] I don’t really remember. Probably a lot of the parts about—it addressed some things that were not—I guess I’d put it this way. The chairman felt that it was appropriate to look not only at the specifics of that accident, but other things that his group might want to say about safety in the program, and that included, among other things, the role of astronauts in the program, and that was one of the places where I think I contributed, was how astronauts ought to be involved in the program.\n\n I remember one of the recommendations of the committee—I don’t think I was responsible for this one—but talked about elevating the director, the position of director of FCOD, because at the time of the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident, he was not a direct report to the center director. That had been a change that had been made sometime earlier. I don’t remember exactly when. And that commission felt that the guy that was head of the organization with the astronauts should be a direct report to the center director. So several people went back to Houston and put George’s desk up on blocks in an attempt to elevate his position. [Laughter] I think he left it there for some period of time, as far as I can remember.

[Assistant] Enjoyed the elevation?

[User] Enjoyed the elevation.

[Assistant] Well, in May of [19]‘87, you replaced Henry [W. “Hank”] Hartsfield [Jr.] as the Deputy Chief of the Astronaut Office. What were your duties and responsibilities in that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so.

[Assistant] —that they are being tailored?

[User] Yes. I think they know what the job—they have a better idea what the job’s like. They kind of know what the skills are that we’re looking for. And we’ve had a number of astronauts come into the program and be successful, and if they want to, they can pattern themselves after the people that have done that.\n\n You still get that today. It’s a little bit humbling and a little bit different now. When I first started on the selection board, people would say, “Oh, yeah, you know, I always wanted to be an astronaut ever since I watched Apollo 11 land on the Moon,” and now in later years it’s been, “Yeah, I really wanted to be an astronaut ever since I was a little kid and I watched the first Shuttles launch.” And you think, “Ah, jeez.”\n\n Nobody ever says, “When I watched Steve Hawley launch,” but they will say, “Hey, when I saw Sally Ride launch, then I really wanted to be an astronaut,” or, “I thought I could do that, too.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] They’re getting younger and younger, I imagine.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Well, you were assigned to STS-31, but, actually, you had been assigned to 61-J, which was planned before the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I think they know what the job—they have a better idea what the job’s like. They kind of know what the skills are that we’re looking for. And we’ve had a number of astronauts come into the program and be successful, and if they want to, they can pattern themselves after the people that have done that.\n\n You still get that today. It’s a little bit humbling and a little bit different now. When I first started on the selection board, people would say, “Oh, yeah, you know, I always wanted to be an astronaut ever since I watched Apollo 11 land on the Moon,” and now in later years it’s been, “Yeah, I really wanted to be an astronaut ever since I was a little kid and I watched the first Shuttles launch.” And you think, “Ah, jeez.”\n\n Nobody ever says, “When I watched Steve Hawley launch,” but they will say, “Hey, when I saw Sally Ride launch, then I really wanted to be an astronaut,” or, “I thought I could do that, too.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] They’re getting younger and younger, I imagine.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Well, you were assigned to STS-31, but, actually, you had been assigned to 61-J, which was planned before the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It was planned to happen later that year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep.

[Assistant] Well, you were assigned to STS-31, but, actually, you had been assigned to 61-J, which was planned before the\n\n Challenger\n\n accident.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It was planned to happen later that year.

[User] As a matter of fact, I was assigned to that even before 61-C. flew, so it wasn’t unprecedented, but it wasn’t common that you’d get assigned to two missions at the same time. That was kind of neat, although as a practical matter, it didn’t figure into it because we didn’t do much training for 61-J before\n\n Challenger\n\n , and, then, of course, it all became sort of irrelevant.

[Assistant] So you knew for a while that you’d be a part of that crew that deployed the Hubble [Space Telescope].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] It was planned to happen later that year.

[User] As a matter of fact, I was assigned to that even before 61-C. flew, so it wasn’t unprecedented, but it wasn’t common that you’d get assigned to two missions at the same time. That was kind of neat, although as a practical matter, it didn’t figure into it because we didn’t do much training for 61-J before\n\n Challenger\n\n , and, then, of course, it all became sort of irrelevant.

[Assistant] So you knew for a while that you’d be a part of that crew that deployed the Hubble [Space Telescope].

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And so then you did, after a while—I think you were actually—when were you assigned for 31? Was that in [19]‘88, I think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As a matter of fact, I was assigned to that even before 61-C. flew, so it wasn’t unprecedented, but it wasn’t common that you’d get assigned to two missions at the same time. That was kind of neat, although as a practical matter, it didn’t figure into it because we didn’t do much training for 61-J before\n\n Challenger\n\n , and, then, of course, it all became sort of irrelevant.

[Assistant] So you knew for a while that you’d be a part of that crew that deployed the Hubble [Space Telescope].

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And so then you did, after a while—I think you were actually—when were you assigned for 31? Was that in [19]‘88, I think?

[User] I don’t remember. That sounds about right, yes.

[Assistant] Yes, okay. Well, since it was postponed for so long, when you were reassigned, did they assign the entire crew at that point, or was it still—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And so then you did, after a while—I think you were actually—when were you assigned for 31? Was that in [19]‘88, I think?

[User] I don’t remember. That sounds about right, yes.

[Assistant] Yes, okay. Well, since it was postponed for so long, when you were reassigned, did they assign the entire crew at that point, or was it still—

[User] They didn’t assign the entire crew, but it was mostly the same crew. The commander was different. When I was assigned to 61-J, John [W.] Young was the commander, and then they got around to assigning 31, John was no longer the Chief of the [Astronaut] Office. He was the Special Assistant to the Director [of Johnson Space Center for Engineering, Operations, and Safety], and Loren [J.] Shriver was assigned to be the commander.

[Assistant] Do you think that you being the astronomer, is that why you were assigned to that mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you might have to deal with it.

[Assistant] You may have to deal with it later.\n\n Well, there were some other things besides the Hubble on the\n\n Atlantis\n\n on that flight. Do you remember—

[User] Actually, it was\n\n Discovery\n\n .

[Assistant] Oh, was it\n\n Discovery\n\n ?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Do you remember anything about any of the other payloads or the experiments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, it was\n\n Discovery\n\n .

[Assistant] Oh, was it\n\n Discovery\n\n ?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Do you remember anything about any of the other payloads or the experiments?

[User] I don’t remember that we had too much else, frankly. Hubble pretty much filled the bay, so we didn’t have anything else in the bay. We had IMAX, and we probably had some mid deck experiments, but I don’t remember much about them.

[Assistant] What was it like for you when you finally, being assigned to this early on, four years before, and then finally seeing it fly, what was that like for you personally to experience that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think. I mean, the scientific community is sort of diverse, and I don’t know that the scientific community ever, you know, speaks with one voice, but there were people that were using the telescope from [19]’90 to ‘93 and doing important work. I’m sure there were others that felt NASA had really screwed this up, and they were not very happy at all. So you could probably find a whole host of points of view on that.

[Assistant] Well, you mentioned that you were sure that your crew had not done anything to cause the problem. Was there ever a question of that?

[User] No, but, you know, I mean, that’s the sort of thing that—

[Assistant] First thing you thought of?

[User] First thing you think of is, “What did I do to screw this up?” [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, after that, you came back. What was your position when you first came back from that flight? Were you still—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but, you know, I mean, that’s the sort of thing that—

[Assistant] First thing you thought of?

[User] First thing you think of is, “What did I do to screw this up?” [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, after that, you came back. What was your position when you first came back from that flight? Were you still—

[User] I guess it was probably ill-defined, because I had actually had an offer to go to [NASA] Ames [Research Center, Moffett Field, California] before the flight happened, and [Richard H. “Dick”] Truly had called me, I think in December or thereabouts of—would have been [19]‘89, and asked me if I wanted to consider going out and taking a job at Ames, and I told him I was interested and wanted to think about it, but I had this flight, and I really didn’t feel like I was in a position to decide till after the flight. I had actually gone out to Ames before the flight and talked to the management out there and told them the same thing.\n\n So when I came back, I suppose I was kind of in limbo, because now that I’m back, I had to decide what my next job was going to be. I suppose my two options were either take the job at Ames or to go back to my old job as deputy chief for the office, and I elected to go to Ames.

[Assistant] Why did you do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I forgot the question was. How I came to be in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] I think part of it was Kennedy's, the notion of the service that Kennedy had talked about.

[User] Yeah, definitely that. And then I think in combination with the love of travel and sort of just fascination with learning about other cultures and all that sort of thing. I don't think I was very, um. You know, I mean, it seemed like a good idea to serve other people, but I think it was, um, my motivation was probably more selfish, that I really wanted to learn from the experience myself.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I think in the end, that was the most valuable thing too. I mean, I think I really, it's been a great learning experience for me.

[Assistant] So did you end up going after college as you had planned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, definitely that. And then I think in combination with the love of travel and sort of just fascination with learning about other cultures and all that sort of thing. I don't think I was very, um. You know, I mean, it seemed like a good idea to serve other people, but I think it was, um, my motivation was probably more selfish, that I really wanted to learn from the experience myself.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I think in the end, that was the most valuable thing too. I mean, I think I really, it's been a great learning experience for me.

[Assistant] So did you end up going after college as you had planned?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, went immediately after college.

[Assistant] And you had been an English major?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think in the end, that was the most valuable thing too. I mean, I think I really, it's been a great learning experience for me.

[Assistant] So did you end up going after college as you had planned?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, went immediately after college.

[Assistant] And you had been an English major?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Had you done any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, went immediately after college.

[Assistant] And you had been an English major?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Had you done any?

[User]
I was a BA generalist as I was termed in Peace Corps, and that wasn't a very great thing at that time. Peace Corps had just turned from taking BA generalists and putting them through jungle training to, um, you know, some of the early. Oh, the other thing I should say about wanting to go into Peace Corps. There were ads on television in the sixties, and they were of people swinging through the jungles on these ropes and this sort of thing, you know, and you know, these very engaging commercials, and so I'm sure that had something to do with it too. But before I went my senior year, I, oh, maybe this is coming later, but my senior year they, um, I was working in a restaurant. My parents had said, well, we'll put you through college. But then one summer I wanted to go to summer school. So they said, OK, well, then you know, you're going to have to pay for one of your semesters. And so I paid for my last semester by being a waitress, as we called them in those days.

And I remember my manager thought I was a really good waitress, and he thought I was crazy for going into Peace Corps. And he begged me to stay and told me, you know, I'd be making a lot more if I stayed as a waitress because I'd only be making like, what was it, 16 cents an hour or something? He absolutely thought I was nuts. So, yeah, but anyway, I think television and Kennedy himself first, you know, all those kinds of things were part of it.

[Assistant] Yeah. In college, did you take any courses that prepared you to teach English as a second or foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, there were a lot of other programs and they said that you would get three. You could get up to three invitations and you didn't have to take your first one. And so I met somebody else who said Ethiopia was a really neat place to go. I didn't know where I wanted to go. I was really pretty interested in Africa. I'd heard bad things about Afghanistan, that it was a druggie place, you know, and I didn't speak Spanish. And, you know, I mean, I had, I think I thought Africa was pretty neat, but I really didn't know where I wanted to go. But then I heard from somebody that that, um, Ethiopia was really an interesting place. So, oh, OK. Put that down as a first choice. It was pretty capricious. And anyway, that. But that was a really big Peace Corps country at the time. And so, um, I guess the odds were pretty good of getting that.

[Assistant] So you graduated, you had this application, you got your invitation, and then you?

[User] Yeah, I got the invitation before. I can't remember when. Sometime during that spring semester and then went really soon after graduation, you know, like maybe two weeks.

[Assistant] Wow. And you were, what? 21 or 20?

[User] I was 22, I think. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So what did your family say when you said, hey, I'm going to Ethiopia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I got the invitation before. I can't remember when. Sometime during that spring semester and then went really soon after graduation, you know, like maybe two weeks.

[Assistant] Wow. And you were, what? 21 or 20?

[User] I was 22, I think. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So what did your family say when you said, hey, I'm going to Ethiopia?

[User] They were really very upset. They did not like this idea at all. They thought maybe I'd just been saying this for years, I think, because I often did sort of, you know, talk about this or that, and I think they just thought I would definitely never do it. And they were really worried. My grandfather, I remember, was, had some. He had been in World War I and in France, you know, and so his idea of overseas was tarnished by war. And, you know, I mean, and plus it had been so long ago. This was like 1917 or something, you know? And he's telling me what it's going to be like in 1970. Of course, it's pretty, pretty remote. And you know, they, of course, people had seen these TV shows like Daktari and. I don't know if you remember?

[Assistant] I do know it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was 22, I think. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] So what did your family say when you said, hey, I'm going to Ethiopia?

[User] They were really very upset. They did not like this idea at all. They thought maybe I'd just been saying this for years, I think, because I often did sort of, you know, talk about this or that, and I think they just thought I would definitely never do it. And they were really worried. My grandfather, I remember, was, had some. He had been in World War I and in France, you know, and so his idea of overseas was tarnished by war. And, you know, I mean, and plus it had been so long ago. This was like 1917 or something, you know? And he's telling me what it's going to be like in 1970. Of course, it's pretty, pretty remote. And you know, they, of course, people had seen these TV shows like Daktari and. I don't know if you remember?

[Assistant] I do know it.

[User] Yes. And you know, all these people being eaten by alligators and crocodiles and, you know, Tarzan movies. And all these sort of images of Africa were floating about, so I think it was very, very upsetting. And of course, we had no email, no cell phones, no reliable telephones even, so I literally didn't talk to my parents the entire time I was there. And you know, sometimes you'd go for weeks without getting a letter. The only way to really contact each other was by a letter. So, you know, it was a big deal, and I, oh, I was an only child and still am.

[Assistant] Yeah. So that must have been devastating for them.