[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, one is Gary Schultz, who is still very active and just recently this past year got a chieftaincy title in Sierra Leone and is helping with this Ebola crisis right now.

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] So he's still very much the model of a volunteer who has this connection with other cultures and other people and trying to help in one way or another. And the other was John Fanselow, who was in education at that point, I think, in one of the first groups to Ghana, and the two of them became very close friends and mentors to me. And I tried to keep in touch with John Fanselow, I think, still lives and teaches in Japan and has for many, many years. Yeah, but he was, I think he was for a while a faculty member at Teachers College.

[Assistant] At Columbia?

[User] Yeah, Columbia.

[Assistant] So in addition to studying Yoruba language, what else what other things were covered in Peace Corps training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So he's still very much the model of a volunteer who has this connection with other cultures and other people and trying to help in one way or another. And the other was John Fanselow, who was in education at that point, I think, in one of the first groups to Ghana, and the two of them became very close friends and mentors to me. And I tried to keep in touch with John Fanselow, I think, still lives and teaches in Japan and has for many, many years. Yeah, but he was, I think he was for a while a faculty member at Teachers College.

[Assistant] At Columbia?

[User] Yeah, Columbia.

[Assistant] So in addition to studying Yoruba language, what else what other things were covered in Peace Corps training?

[User] Well, I was learning about the politics of Nigeria and aspects of culture and what the culture of secondary school teaching was, what our expectations might be, how we might be most useful, that kind of thing. Um, it was just trying to immerse ourselves in the cultural world that we were going to be a part of.

[Assistant] And teacher training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, Columbia.

[Assistant] So in addition to studying Yoruba language, what else what other things were covered in Peace Corps training?

[User] Well, I was learning about the politics of Nigeria and aspects of culture and what the culture of secondary school teaching was, what our expectations might be, how we might be most useful, that kind of thing. Um, it was just trying to immerse ourselves in the cultural world that we were going to be a part of.

[Assistant] And teacher training?

[User] Teacher training. Yes, yes. Yes, we did that too. We had to teach a course. We had to do teaching demonstrations. And we were graded strictly on those for success or lack, lack thereof. And yeah. So that was an important part as well, because most of us were liberal arts graduates with no training in teaching. So that was a crucial element to it. And so that's the faculty at Teachers College, as well as those who are on the teacher training program and the Peace Corps training program were wonderful professionals in that regard.

[Assistant] Was there also a physical education component to this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was learning about the politics of Nigeria and aspects of culture and what the culture of secondary school teaching was, what our expectations might be, how we might be most useful, that kind of thing. Um, it was just trying to immerse ourselves in the cultural world that we were going to be a part of.

[Assistant] And teacher training?

[User] Teacher training. Yes, yes. Yes, we did that too. We had to teach a course. We had to do teaching demonstrations. And we were graded strictly on those for success or lack, lack thereof. And yeah. So that was an important part as well, because most of us were liberal arts graduates with no training in teaching. So that was a crucial element to it. And so that's the faculty at Teachers College, as well as those who are on the teacher training program and the Peace Corps training program were wonderful professionals in that regard.

[Assistant] Was there also a physical education component to this?

[User] Um, not that was, no. I mean, it was a minor part of it. And the funny thing about that element of the training program was that they were preparing us to participate as games masters at our schools.

[Assistant] And the games there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Teacher training. Yes, yes. Yes, we did that too. We had to teach a course. We had to do teaching demonstrations. And we were graded strictly on those for success or lack, lack thereof. And yeah. So that was an important part as well, because most of us were liberal arts graduates with no training in teaching. So that was a crucial element to it. And so that's the faculty at Teachers College, as well as those who are on the teacher training program and the Peace Corps training program were wonderful professionals in that regard.

[Assistant] Was there also a physical education component to this?

[User] Um, not that was, no. I mean, it was a minor part of it. And the funny thing about that element of the training program was that they were preparing us to participate as games masters at our schools.

[Assistant] And the games there.

[User] Yes. And the games there, of course. Well, in the elite schools of Nigeria still at that time, what was the major sport? Cricket. One afternoon they take us down to Riverside Park, set up a cricket pitch, and then try to teach us the rules and regulations of cricket in the anticipation that some of us might be asked to be coaches for the cricket team. And the same thing with soccer, with football, because that was also a big sport. So it was physical education, was brought into the training program in that way.

[Assistant] Preparing you to be a teacher of it or a coordinator of sports.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, not that was, no. I mean, it was a minor part of it. And the funny thing about that element of the training program was that they were preparing us to participate as games masters at our schools.

[Assistant] And the games there.

[User] Yes. And the games there, of course. Well, in the elite schools of Nigeria still at that time, what was the major sport? Cricket. One afternoon they take us down to Riverside Park, set up a cricket pitch, and then try to teach us the rules and regulations of cricket in the anticipation that some of us might be asked to be coaches for the cricket team. And the same thing with soccer, with football, because that was also a big sport. So it was physical education, was brought into the training program in that way.

[Assistant] Preparing you to be a teacher of it or a coordinator of sports.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Not necessarily to get you physically fit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And the games there, of course. Well, in the elite schools of Nigeria still at that time, what was the major sport? Cricket. One afternoon they take us down to Riverside Park, set up a cricket pitch, and then try to teach us the rules and regulations of cricket in the anticipation that some of us might be asked to be coaches for the cricket team. And the same thing with soccer, with football, because that was also a big sport. So it was physical education, was brought into the training program in that way.

[Assistant] Preparing you to be a teacher of it or a coordinator of sports.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Not necessarily to get you physically fit.

[User] Right. Not really, no. It was a New York City experience, you know.

[Assistant] Some Peace Corps early programs had people doing Outward Bound survival exercises in Puerto Rico.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Not really, no. It was a New York City experience, you know.

[Assistant] Some Peace Corps early programs had people doing Outward Bound survival exercises in Puerto Rico.

[User] No we didn't, you know, we just had to survive Manhattan.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Um, and then, back then, most Peace Corps programs had the big ogre of deselection hanging over everybody’s shoulders. Was that your experience, too, that they told you that only a certain, that there would be some fraction of your group that would not go over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No we didn't, you know, we just had to survive Manhattan.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Um, and then, back then, most Peace Corps programs had the big ogre of deselection hanging over everybody’s shoulders. Was that your experience, too, that they told you that only a certain, that there would be some fraction of your group that would not go over?

[User] Yes, it was kind of, yeah. It was kind of, you know, hovering, um, throughout the training program. And there were, of course, rumors going around about who was going to survive and who was going to be deselected and what some of the reasons for that might be.

[Assistant] Did you have psychologists coming to interview you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was kind of, yeah. It was kind of, you know, hovering, um, throughout the training program. And there were, of course, rumors going around about who was going to survive and who was going to be deselected and what some of the reasons for that might be.

[Assistant] Did you have psychologists coming to interview you?

[User] Yes, as a matter of fact. I haven't thought about this in a long time, but I do remember that that was part of the selection, the so-called deselection process. Um, and I wasn't very happy about that. And I think I have to say that I had very mixed feelings about my identity as both an individual who has his own political and philosophical perspectives and those of my so-called, my government, okay?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That I, as a Peace Corps volunteer, was also representing my country. And over the years, the distance between my own political philosophy and approach to life and action is very, very different from that of my government. And it was starting to be that in the ‘60s during that time. So I had kind of mixed feelings about it, but I still felt that I could contribute something and that I would ultimately be judged as an individual by the people I was going to live with. And so I thought I could still do it, but I had mixed feelings.

[Assistant] Although initially you have to be judged by the gate keepers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, as a matter of fact. I haven't thought about this in a long time, but I do remember that that was part of the selection, the so-called deselection process. Um, and I wasn't very happy about that. And I think I have to say that I had very mixed feelings about my identity as both an individual who has his own political and philosophical perspectives and those of my so-called, my government, okay?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That I, as a Peace Corps volunteer, was also representing my country. And over the years, the distance between my own political philosophy and approach to life and action is very, very different from that of my government. And it was starting to be that in the ‘60s during that time. So I had kind of mixed feelings about it, but I still felt that I could contribute something and that I would ultimately be judged as an individual by the people I was going to live with. And so I thought I could still do it, but I had mixed feelings.

[Assistant] Although initially you have to be judged by the gate keepers.

[User] Right. I didn’t appreciate that. That’s right. I didn’t appreciate that, because many of them were, you know, kind of, you know, representatives of government and of policies that I didn't agree with.

[Assistant] Were there American studies as part of your training program kind of making it clear what you are to say about communism while abroad?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That I, as a Peace Corps volunteer, was also representing my country. And over the years, the distance between my own political philosophy and approach to life and action is very, very different from that of my government. And it was starting to be that in the ‘60s during that time. So I had kind of mixed feelings about it, but I still felt that I could contribute something and that I would ultimately be judged as an individual by the people I was going to live with. And so I thought I could still do it, but I had mixed feelings.

[Assistant] Although initially you have to be judged by the gate keepers.

[User] Right. I didn’t appreciate that. That’s right. I didn’t appreciate that, because many of them were, you know, kind of, you know, representatives of government and of policies that I didn't agree with.

[Assistant] Were there American studies as part of your training program kind of making it clear what you are to say about communism while abroad?

[User] Well, if they did discuss it, I ignored it, essentially. There wasn't much of that. We were mostly, what I put my emphasis and focus upon was learning as much as I could about the people and the place I was going to.

[Assistant] So did training give you what you needed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I didn’t appreciate that. That’s right. I didn’t appreciate that, because many of them were, you know, kind of, you know, representatives of government and of policies that I didn't agree with.

[Assistant] Were there American studies as part of your training program kind of making it clear what you are to say about communism while abroad?

[User] Well, if they did discuss it, I ignored it, essentially. There wasn't much of that. We were mostly, what I put my emphasis and focus upon was learning as much as I could about the people and the place I was going to.

[Assistant] So did training give you what you needed?

[User] Yeah, well, yeah. I mean yeah, it started to. I think they did what they could in the time that we had. And I remember that that summer of ‘64, um, what was taking place in another part of New York City? The World's Fair. And the World's Fair, which was in Queens, had a Nigerian pavilion. And so I with my family, went to visit it to learn some more about the place I was going to.

[Assistant] And what did you see there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, if they did discuss it, I ignored it, essentially. There wasn't much of that. We were mostly, what I put my emphasis and focus upon was learning as much as I could about the people and the place I was going to.

[Assistant] So did training give you what you needed?

[User] Yeah, well, yeah. I mean yeah, it started to. I think they did what they could in the time that we had. And I remember that that summer of ‘64, um, what was taking place in another part of New York City? The World's Fair. And the World's Fair, which was in Queens, had a Nigerian pavilion. And so I with my family, went to visit it to learn some more about the place I was going to.

[Assistant] And what did you see there?

[User] Well, you know, it was, what was it? It was food. It was, you know, presentation of food, the history. There were cultural performances, dances, music, and so on. Fashion. And there were displays of the products that were being made by Nigerians and something of its government and, you know, its face to the rest of the world as a newly independent nation.

[Assistant] Did they present a particular culture, Nigerian culture, or were they attempting to be representative of several?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, yeah. I mean yeah, it started to. I think they did what they could in the time that we had. And I remember that that summer of ‘64, um, what was taking place in another part of New York City? The World's Fair. And the World's Fair, which was in Queens, had a Nigerian pavilion. And so I with my family, went to visit it to learn some more about the place I was going to.

[Assistant] And what did you see there?

[User] Well, you know, it was, what was it? It was food. It was, you know, presentation of food, the history. There were cultural performances, dances, music, and so on. Fashion. And there were displays of the products that were being made by Nigerians and something of its government and, you know, its face to the rest of the world as a newly independent nation.

[Assistant] Did they present a particular culture, Nigerian culture, or were they attempting to be representative of several?

[User] Yeah, I think at that point, they were trying to represent maybe the three major groups, Yoruba, Hausa and Igbo, at that point. And talking about cultural diversity, but unity within, you know, the Nigerian nation and so on. So it was an interesting experience. And essentially some of my first encounters with Nigerians was at that World's Fair because before that time, I had no connection to Nigeria or Nigerians.

[Assistant] So you had the fair in Queens, but you also had Nigerians as part of the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, it was, what was it? It was food. It was, you know, presentation of food, the history. There were cultural performances, dances, music, and so on. Fashion. And there were displays of the products that were being made by Nigerians and something of its government and, you know, its face to the rest of the world as a newly independent nation.

[Assistant] Did they present a particular culture, Nigerian culture, or were they attempting to be representative of several?

[User] Yeah, I think at that point, they were trying to represent maybe the three major groups, Yoruba, Hausa and Igbo, at that point. And talking about cultural diversity, but unity within, you know, the Nigerian nation and so on. So it was an interesting experience. And essentially some of my first encounters with Nigerians was at that World's Fair because before that time, I had no connection to Nigeria or Nigerians.

[Assistant] So you had the fair in Queens, but you also had Nigerians as part of the training?

[User] Yes. Yes. They would come and present and language instruction. So, yes, of course. Yeah.

[Assistant] So your training started in September of 1964?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think at that point, they were trying to represent maybe the three major groups, Yoruba, Hausa and Igbo, at that point. And talking about cultural diversity, but unity within, you know, the Nigerian nation and so on. So it was an interesting experience. And essentially some of my first encounters with Nigerians was at that World's Fair because before that time, I had no connection to Nigeria or Nigerians.

[Assistant] So you had the fair in Queens, but you also had Nigerians as part of the training?

[User] Yes. Yes. They would come and present and language instruction. So, yes, of course. Yeah.

[Assistant] So your training started in September of 1964?

[User] No, no, I started at the beginning of the summer. By August we were on our way to Nigeria. I don't remember the exact dates, but we arrived in Nigeria, I think it was in August, and those of us who were in the southwestern part of Nigeria went to Ibadan and we had some initial orientation there at the University of Ibadan and the Peace Corps office for the western region.

[Assistant] Do you remember who some of those people were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, I started at the beginning of the summer. By August we were on our way to Nigeria. I don't remember the exact dates, but we arrived in Nigeria, I think it was in August, and those of us who were in the southwestern part of Nigeria went to Ibadan and we had some initial orientation there at the University of Ibadan and the Peace Corps office for the western region.

[Assistant] Do you remember who some of those people were?

[User] Um, I've been trying to remember some of the names. So one of the women in the office was Alice, but I can’t.

[Assistant] Alice O'Grady.

[User] Alice O'Grady, of course!

[Assistant] A friend of mine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I've been trying to remember some of the names. So one of the women in the office was Alice, but I can’t.

[Assistant] Alice O'Grady.

[User] Alice O'Grady, of course!

[Assistant] A friend of mine.

[User] Is that right? I loved Alice. Yeah, she was special. And the director at that point, I can't remember his name.

[Assistant] It was a John, no. Oh, there was a Catholic priest whose name escapes me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in Peoria, Illinois, and I had three older brothers and one younger sister. And I went to the same grade school. And then I went to the same high school that I met my husband and had an interesting childhood, let's put it that way.

[Assistant] So the schools you went to were public schools?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I guess my claim to fame in high school is that I was interested in leadership and I was elected president of the student council when I was a senior.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Well, let's go back a little before you were a senior in high school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I guess my claim to fame in high school is that I was interested in leadership and I was elected president of the student council when I was a senior.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Well, let's go back a little before you were a senior in high school.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You had, how many siblings did you say you had?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I guess my claim to fame in high school is that I was interested in leadership and I was elected president of the student council when I was a senior.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Well, let's go back a little before you were a senior in high school.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You had, how many siblings did you say you had?

[User] Three older brothers.

[Assistant] Three older brothers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You had, how many siblings did you say you had?

[User] Three older brothers.

[Assistant] Three older brothers.

[User] Uh huh. And one younger sister.

[Assistant] Oh, so there were five of you. Seven all together counting your parents.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Three older brothers.

[Assistant] Three older brothers.

[User] Uh huh. And one younger sister.

[Assistant] Oh, so there were five of you. Seven all together counting your parents.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Boy, that's a lot to cram into a car. Did you ever take trips together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh huh. And one younger sister.

[Assistant] Oh, so there were five of you. Seven all together counting your parents.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Boy, that's a lot to cram into a car. Did you ever take trips together?

[User] Oh, good question. Yes, we did. My dad worked for Caterpillar Tractor in Peoria, and in August, I believe the vacation period was always in August, we would go up to either Wisconsin or Minnesota. My dad loved to fish, and that was sort of the, you know, the relaxation of his work life was to take the family up to a resort, you know, a modest resort. And it was a lot of fun. I have good memories of that. The driving, not so much, the driving was not so.

[Assistant] Well, you were kind of some, you were really squeezed in there. In a station wagon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Boy, that's a lot to cram into a car. Did you ever take trips together?

[User] Oh, good question. Yes, we did. My dad worked for Caterpillar Tractor in Peoria, and in August, I believe the vacation period was always in August, we would go up to either Wisconsin or Minnesota. My dad loved to fish, and that was sort of the, you know, the relaxation of his work life was to take the family up to a resort, you know, a modest resort. And it was a lot of fun. I have good memories of that. The driving, not so much, the driving was not so.

[Assistant] Well, you were kind of some, you were really squeezed in there. In a station wagon?

[User] No, we didn't. We had big cars. We had big four door cars. One of them was a Cadillac. I remember that. My dad liked to have big cars.

[Assistant] So your traveling with the family as a child was mostly within the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we didn't. We had big cars. We had big four door cars. One of them was a Cadillac. I remember that. My dad liked to have big cars.

[Assistant] So your traveling with the family as a child was mostly within the United States?

[User] Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I went to Indianapolis one time when I was in high school. I went to Chicago for a leadership conference. But other than that, no, we stayed. We stayed in Peoria.

[Assistant] Peoria and Minnesota.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I went to Indianapolis one time when I was in high school. I went to Chicago for a leadership conference. But other than that, no, we stayed. We stayed in Peoria.

[Assistant] Peoria and Minnesota.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And local trips.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to Indianapolis one time when I was in high school. I went to Chicago for a leadership conference. But other than that, no, we stayed. We stayed in Peoria.

[Assistant] Peoria and Minnesota.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And local trips.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you get to high school and there was a guy named Joe there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you get to high school and there was a guy named Joe there.

[User] Yeah. We were friends from the get-go. We both got elected to student council when we were freshmen. And we were in the same homeroom for four years. And it was a very kind of a dramatic time. One of our older classmates was accidentally shot by her boyfriend.

[Assistant] Oh, my.

[User] And I was 14. I think she was 16 or 17. And it was, you know, it was one of those life events that never had anything like that happened. And it was just shocking.

[Assistant] No kidding. What year of high school was then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was 14. I think she was 16 or 17. And it was, you know, it was one of those life events that never had anything like that happened. And it was just shocking.

[Assistant] No kidding. What year of high school was then?

[User] I think it was '63.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] No, no, no, no. I graduated in '62. It must have been '59 or '60.

[Assistant] Uh huh. So you were maybe a sophomore in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was '63.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] No, no, no, no. I graduated in '62. It must have been '59 or '60.

[Assistant] Uh huh. So you were maybe a sophomore in high school?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's a hard thing to experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no, no. I graduated in '62. It must have been '59 or '60.

[Assistant] Uh huh. So you were maybe a sophomore in high school?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's a hard thing to experience.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] So in high school, you were active, you were in the student council. Did you study a foreign language in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's a hard thing to experience.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] So in high school, you were active, you were in the student council. Did you study a foreign language in high school?

[User] I did. I had Spanish and I had a teacher named Zrizina Steppitis who is not Spanish. She was Eastern European, but she was a very hands-on teacher. And I loved speaking Spanish. I took French later when I was in college.

[Assistant] You had four years of Spanish in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was.

[Assistant] So in high school, you were active, you were in the student council. Did you study a foreign language in high school?

[User] I did. I had Spanish and I had a teacher named Zrizina Steppitis who is not Spanish. She was Eastern European, but she was a very hands-on teacher. And I loved speaking Spanish. I took French later when I was in college.

[Assistant] You had four years of Spanish in high school?

[User] I think I had three. I think I started when I was a sophomore.

[Assistant] Uh huh, uh huh. And what other things did you enjoy in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I had Spanish and I had a teacher named Zrizina Steppitis who is not Spanish. She was Eastern European, but she was a very hands-on teacher. And I loved speaking Spanish. I took French later when I was in college.

[Assistant] You had four years of Spanish in high school?

[User] I think I had three. I think I started when I was a sophomore.

[Assistant] Uh huh, uh huh. And what other things did you enjoy in high school?

[User] I really liked English. That was one of my favorite topics. And I also was artistic, so I enjoyed art classes.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I can picture that. And did you play sports?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I had three. I think I started when I was a sophomore.

[Assistant] Uh huh, uh huh. And what other things did you enjoy in high school?

[User] I really liked English. That was one of my favorite topics. And I also was artistic, so I enjoyed art classes.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I can picture that. And did you play sports?

[User] Oh, no. No, no. Not sportsy at all. I was four foot ten. I was one of the shortest people in my class. There were maybe a couple of other girls were in that range, but I always considered sports to be out of my league just because I was so short.

[Assistant] Sure, but what a shame.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really liked English. That was one of my favorite topics. And I also was artistic, so I enjoyed art classes.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I can picture that. And did you play sports?

[User] Oh, no. No, no. Not sportsy at all. I was four foot ten. I was one of the shortest people in my class. There were maybe a couple of other girls were in that range, but I always considered sports to be out of my league just because I was so short.

[Assistant] Sure, but what a shame.

[User] But I grew later, so.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. You're a little taller than that now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no. No, no. Not sportsy at all. I was four foot ten. I was one of the shortest people in my class. There were maybe a couple of other girls were in that range, but I always considered sports to be out of my league just because I was so short.

[Assistant] Sure, but what a shame.

[User] But I grew later, so.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. You're a little taller than that now.

[User] Five two, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. And then, um, but you were, you started, you were starting to date Joe somewhere towards the end of high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I grew later, so.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. You're a little taller than that now.

[User] Five two, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. And then, um, but you were, you started, you were starting to date Joe somewhere towards the end of high school?

[User] No, not really. We were mostly friends. I think maybe we went out one time, but it was pretty much more of a friendship. And one thing I did want to talk about that was important to me in high school was that I was a candy striper as a volunteer.

[Assistant] In a hospital?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Five two, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. And then, um, but you were, you started, you were starting to date Joe somewhere towards the end of high school?

[User] No, not really. We were mostly friends. I think maybe we went out one time, but it was pretty much more of a friendship. And one thing I did want to talk about that was important to me in high school was that I was a candy striper as a volunteer.

[Assistant] In a hospital?

[User] It was actually, it was in a home called the Schlarman Home in Peoria. It was run by Catholic nuns, and it was for children who'd been given up for birth for various reasons. The least difficult reason was one little boy had a port wine stain on his face which disfigured him. It was just something that happens to the pigment of the skin.

[Assistant] Oh. And his mother gave him up because of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was actually, it was in a home called the Schlarman Home in Peoria. It was run by Catholic nuns, and it was for children who'd been given up for birth for various reasons. The least difficult reason was one little boy had a port wine stain on his face which disfigured him. It was just something that happens to the pigment of the skin.

[Assistant] Oh. And his mother gave him up because of that?

[User] There probably were other reasons. But, you know, I was 14 or 15 at the time when I was encountering this, and I just thought it was so strange. Many of the children had Down syndrome, which in those days when you had a Down syndrome baby, it was considered to be, um, something that you wouldn't deal with as a family.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So these little babies would stay in the Schlarman Home with the nuns until they were five years old. And then they would go to a state institution.

[Assistant] An orphanage of some sort. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There probably were other reasons. But, you know, I was 14 or 15 at the time when I was encountering this, and I just thought it was so strange. Many of the children had Down syndrome, which in those days when you had a Down syndrome baby, it was considered to be, um, something that you wouldn't deal with as a family.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So these little babies would stay in the Schlarman Home with the nuns until they were five years old. And then they would go to a state institution.

[Assistant] An orphanage of some sort. Yeah.

[User] The Schlarman Home was just a little building. I can't remember how many children were there at one time, like maybe 20 to 30. And the nuns did everything. They cooked, they cleaned, and they made me feel welcome. I know that. I felt really welcome, even though it was a strange environment for a 14 or 15 year old girl. And one of the nuns, I thought she was very insightful with the little boy with the port wine. She said, you know, he just needs to be held. If you can just rock him and talk to him, that would be really important.

[Assistant] Because apart from this superficial stain on his face, he was a normal kid?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So these little babies would stay in the Schlarman Home with the nuns until they were five years old. And then they would go to a state institution.

[Assistant] An orphanage of some sort. Yeah.

[User] The Schlarman Home was just a little building. I can't remember how many children were there at one time, like maybe 20 to 30. And the nuns did everything. They cooked, they cleaned, and they made me feel welcome. I know that. I felt really welcome, even though it was a strange environment for a 14 or 15 year old girl. And one of the nuns, I thought she was very insightful with the little boy with the port wine. She said, you know, he just needs to be held. If you can just rock him and talk to him, that would be really important.

[Assistant] Because apart from this superficial stain on his face, he was a normal kid?

[User] He was totally normal.

[Assistant] Oh, gee. So you would go there and you'd hold this little child and play with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Schlarman Home was just a little building. I can't remember how many children were there at one time, like maybe 20 to 30. And the nuns did everything. They cooked, they cleaned, and they made me feel welcome. I know that. I felt really welcome, even though it was a strange environment for a 14 or 15 year old girl. And one of the nuns, I thought she was very insightful with the little boy with the port wine. She said, you know, he just needs to be held. If you can just rock him and talk to him, that would be really important.

[Assistant] Because apart from this superficial stain on his face, he was a normal kid?

[User] He was totally normal.

[Assistant] Oh, gee. So you would go there and you'd hold this little child and play with them?

[User] And others and help feed the kids. They ate in small groups and round tables. I can remember helping feed them, but mostly I was just, I think I was just agog at these nuns because of their service. And they were very, um, cheerful about it. Occasionally they would get to take vacations, but it would be one at a time because they couldn't afford to have all of them go at one time.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. They needed to maintain the, keep those babies fed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was totally normal.

[Assistant] Oh, gee. So you would go there and you'd hold this little child and play with them?

[User] And others and help feed the kids. They ate in small groups and round tables. I can remember helping feed them, but mostly I was just, I think I was just agog at these nuns because of their service. And they were very, um, cheerful about it. Occasionally they would get to take vacations, but it would be one at a time because they couldn't afford to have all of them go at one time.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. They needed to maintain the, keep those babies fed.

[User] Yeah. So that was kind of an eye opener.

[Assistant] And you did that for all four years of high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember if it was four years. It was probably less than that. I also had part time jobs. I worked in retail, like local department stores. I worked in a bridal shop. And so when I went to college, I was going through rush. Some girl said, oh, a bridal shop. Do you enjoy working with horses? I said, no, no. It was wedding clothes.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] The other thing our student council did, we tried to do things for the community and we, um, I remember doing this with Joe, was we would put together food baskets at Christmastime and deliver them to the projects in Peoria. I don't remember the names of the projects, but I can remember that experience and going into people's homes and being welcomed and just kind of seeing that other side of life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That I hadn't seen.

[Assistant] Projects in Peoria. The people would be obviously poor. Were they all, were they of a uniform racial group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That I hadn't seen.

[Assistant] Projects in Peoria. The people would be obviously poor. Were they all, were they of a uniform racial group?

[User] Mostly Black.

[Assistant] Mostly Black.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, good for you for doing all that volunteer work. And then you decided to, uh, Joe went off to Yale.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mostly Black.

[Assistant] Mostly Black.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, good for you for doing all that volunteer work. And then you decided to, uh, Joe went off to Yale.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you went to school too somewhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, good for you for doing all that volunteer work. And then you decided to, uh, Joe went off to Yale.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you went to school too somewhere?

[User] I went to the University of Illinois.

[Assistant] University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you went to school too somewhere?

[User] I went to the University of Illinois.

[Assistant] University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And so you would have lived on campus?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And so you would have lived on campus?

[User] I lived in the sorority house, the Kappa Kappa Gamma house at 1102 South Lincoln. That's where you'll find the Kappas at home.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I still remember those lyrics. Anyway, I met three women there who are my friends still. Mary Jean, Nancy Jo, and Mary Sue. They all had double names.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you were Beverly Jean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then in the spring of that year, Joe and I got together for a prom or some gala, and I never went back home. I just left everything at school. And we eloped and got married and had already applied for Peace Corps. It was a very kind of drastic and sudden thing, but a lot of it was a result of my personal upset in my life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I was just really ready to get on with something different.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, um, so that's what I did. It feels, I feel badly about it now, but at the time it seemed like it was such a smart thing to do.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, when I look at how your life has unfolded since then, I think it was a smart thing to do. You and Joe are still together. You've got four wonderful kids. Um, so just a little bit more time about University of Illinois. You mentioned earlier that you studied French there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was just really ready to get on with something different.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, um, so that's what I did. It feels, I feel badly about it now, but at the time it seemed like it was such a smart thing to do.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, when I look at how your life has unfolded since then, I think it was a smart thing to do. You and Joe are still together. You've got four wonderful kids. Um, so just a little bit more time about University of Illinois. You mentioned earlier that you studied French there?

[User] No, I started out, I was in elementary education. I did take French.

[Assistant] A couple of French courses, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that wasn't a mainstream. I finally ended up in art history. I really didn't like the elementary education courses at that time. It was a funny time in the sixties, the early sixties, they were changing curriculum standards and new math was coming into play. There was a lot of, uh, controversy over how to teach children.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And so, I don't know, I just, I really liked art and I liked history, so art history seemed like a logical way to go. So I think I have a minor in art history. When I finally graduated, I had a major in psychology and a minor in art history.

[Assistant] Art history.

[User] Because I went to school after I came back from Peace Corps. That's when I finished my degree.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah, okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so, I don't know, I just, I really liked art and I liked history, so art history seemed like a logical way to go. So I think I have a minor in art history. When I finally graduated, I had a major in psychology and a minor in art history.

[Assistant] Art history.

[User] Because I went to school after I came back from Peace Corps. That's when I finished my degree.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah, okay.

[User] Then I got a master's degree, so I stretched it out until I was like about 30 years old.

[Assistant] Yes. I'm going to turn this off for a moment. [tape break] Okay. We're recording again now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I went to school after I came back from Peace Corps. That's when I finished my degree.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah, okay.

[User] Then I got a master's degree, so I stretched it out until I was like about 30 years old.

[Assistant] Yes. I'm going to turn this off for a moment. [tape break] Okay. We're recording again now.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] Okay. So you and Joe have been corresponding for a while?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] Okay. So you and Joe have been corresponding for a while?

[User] Yes. Actually, he was very supportive when my brother committed suicide. His father, and I didn't know this at the time, his father's mother had been hospitalized many times during her life. This is Joe's grandmother.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And I had never talked to Joe about this or anything. But anyway, his father saw it in the paper that my brother had died. So he called Joe and he said, you ought to call her. So Joe was one of the few people from my past, from high school, who did call and check up on me. And we, we remained friends. Whenever he was in town, he would call me. When he came to University of Illinois, we would spend time together. So that was sort of how our friendship matured and turned into romance.

[Assistant] You knew each other quite well, having both served on the student council in high school for all those years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had never talked to Joe about this or anything. But anyway, his father saw it in the paper that my brother had died. So he called Joe and he said, you ought to call her. So Joe was one of the few people from my past, from high school, who did call and check up on me. And we, we remained friends. Whenever he was in town, he would call me. When he came to University of Illinois, we would spend time together. So that was sort of how our friendship matured and turned into romance.

[Assistant] You knew each other quite well, having both served on the student council in high school for all those years.

[User] Oh, yeah. Well, we actually we ran for president against each other, and Joe became the vice president and I was the president, which I richly deserved. And in fact, this is something that always sort of affected me. Dodie Hall was the young woman who was shot by her boyfriend and died, and they set up an award in her name. And I received that award at least twice during my high school career.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And it was for being a hard-working person. And Joe received it one time. I think maybe we even received it together. It was, it was kind of weird. It was like, oh. Such a bittersweet thing.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you and Joe eloped?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Well, we actually we ran for president against each other, and Joe became the vice president and I was the president, which I richly deserved. And in fact, this is something that always sort of affected me. Dodie Hall was the young woman who was shot by her boyfriend and died, and they set up an award in her name. And I received that award at least twice during my high school career.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] And it was for being a hard-working person. And Joe received it one time. I think maybe we even received it together. It was, it was kind of weird. It was like, oh. Such a bittersweet thing.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you and Joe eloped?

[User] Yeah, we did.

[Assistant] And where were you in, were you visiting him out in Yale?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we did.

[Assistant] And where were you in, were you visiting him out in Yale?

[User] I was in New Haven.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had been there for probably a week, and I was supposed to go buy, I had a standby ticket, and there were no seats on the plane. So we drove back to New Haven, and on the way back we decided, well, we might as well just get married. So we did. And we, we, he had a friend who was a minister and I stayed with the minister so. I don't know why that was, but I did and, um. We got a license, we got blood tests, and we did everything that we needed to do. Fairly well organized. We found an apartment to live in. I don't know really how we did it all. And I know that at one point he had this little car and we had a mattress on the top of the car, and we were taking that to the apartment that we had just rented. That looked really nice. I don't think it was on the day of our wedding, but almost. Anyway, the wedding was very nice. We got married in a chapel at New Haven. His minister friend was the officiant and we were happy.

[Assistant] Nobody from your family was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in New Haven.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had been there for probably a week, and I was supposed to go buy, I had a standby ticket, and there were no seats on the plane. So we drove back to New Haven, and on the way back we decided, well, we might as well just get married. So we did. And we, we, he had a friend who was a minister and I stayed with the minister so. I don't know why that was, but I did and, um. We got a license, we got blood tests, and we did everything that we needed to do. Fairly well organized. We found an apartment to live in. I don't know really how we did it all. And I know that at one point he had this little car and we had a mattress on the top of the car, and we were taking that to the apartment that we had just rented. That looked really nice. I don't think it was on the day of our wedding, but almost. Anyway, the wedding was very nice. We got married in a chapel at New Haven. His minister friend was the officiant and we were happy.

[Assistant] Nobody from your family was there?

[User] No, nobody.

[Assistant] How did they feel about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, nobody.

[Assistant] How did they feel about that?

[User] Well, it's a long story, but with all of the upset in my family and my brother's suicide, my dad had been very depressed and he was kind of a loose cannon anyway. His personality was not reliable, and I think it was a relief in a way that we didn't have big wedding plans.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And at that point in time, it just it wasn't important to us and, uh, so that was that.

[Assistant] And then somehow the two of you decide to join the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were engaged. I think we got engaged in November of the year before we went into Peace Corps, in '67. And we had gotten accepted as single people.

[Assistant] Individually.

[User] Yeah. It was the plan to get married, but at the time I think Peace Corps could have sent us to different countries if we hadn't gotten married.

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah.

[User] So when we applied, I was pretty much open to any place in the world, to tell you the truth. But we sort of mutually decided that it would be good to go to South America and go to a big city.

[Assistant] Why did you want to go anywhere in the first place? What drew you towards Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It was the plan to get married, but at the time I think Peace Corps could have sent us to different countries if we hadn't gotten married.

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah.

[User] So when we applied, I was pretty much open to any place in the world, to tell you the truth. But we sort of mutually decided that it would be good to go to South America and go to a big city.

[Assistant] Why did you want to go anywhere in the first place? What drew you towards Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, it was the sixties. Um. So much was going on. I mean, if you do a timeline of all of the, you know, the Vietnam War, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy. I mean, I'm getting those timelines mixed up. But it just seemed like there was like one upset after another. The world was changing and it suited my mood. I wanted to get the hell out.

[Assistant] Right. Peace Corps seemed like a good thing to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So when we applied, I was pretty much open to any place in the world, to tell you the truth. But we sort of mutually decided that it would be good to go to South America and go to a big city.

[Assistant] Why did you want to go anywhere in the first place? What drew you towards Peace Corps?

[User] Oh, it was the sixties. Um. So much was going on. I mean, if you do a timeline of all of the, you know, the Vietnam War, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy. I mean, I'm getting those timelines mixed up. But it just seemed like there was like one upset after another. The world was changing and it suited my mood. I wanted to get the hell out.

[Assistant] Right. Peace Corps seemed like a good thing to do.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you know other people who had joined the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you know other people who had joined the Peace Corps?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Hmm. Hmm.

[User] Not until we actually went to training.

[Assistant] Did Kennedy have anything to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Hmm. Hmm.

[User] Not until we actually went to training.

[Assistant] Did Kennedy have anything to do?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] Your admiration for Kennedy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah. Ask not what you can do for your country.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] Is that the way it goes? Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.

[Assistant] I think that's how it went. Yes. So you're accepted into the Peace Corps. You get an invitation to train for, did you know it was going to be Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Ask not what you can do for your country.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] Is that the way it goes? Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.

[Assistant] I think that's how it went. Yes. So you're accepted into the Peace Corps. You get an invitation to train for, did you know it was going to be Honduras?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you got the invitation to train?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that the way it goes? Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.

[Assistant] I think that's how it went. Yes. So you're accepted into the Peace Corps. You get an invitation to train for, did you know it was going to be Honduras?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When you got the invitation to train?

[User] Yeah. And it was kind of like, where's Honduras and where's Goascoran?

[Assistant] Right. Did you, you already knew it was going to be Goascoran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And it was kind of like, where's Honduras and where's Goascoran?

[Assistant] Right. Did you, you already knew it was going to be Goascoran?

[User] I think so, yeah.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you go for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you go for training?

[User] We went to Saint Louis, Missouri.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] We had to leave New Haven. We left New Haven in the early summer.

[Assistant] Now, Joe had already graduated?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We went to Saint Louis, Missouri.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] We had to leave New Haven. We left New Haven in the early summer.

[Assistant] Now, Joe had already graduated?

[User] Yes, he graduated Yale. And that was kind of like, yeah, that was very nice family get together.

[Assistant] So you have to give up your apartment. You've got stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had to leave New Haven. We left New Haven in the early summer.

[Assistant] Now, Joe had already graduated?

[User] Yes, he graduated Yale. And that was kind of like, yeah, that was very nice family get together.

[Assistant] So you have to give up your apartment. You've got stuff.

[User] It was a great apartment. And, uh, but you know, in those, I mean, you just take everything in stride when you're 21. What's the big deal? So we packed up and we stopped in Louisville, Kentucky, and went to a wedding of one of his classmates, which was very nice. And then we went back to Peoria, started getting ready to go to training. Our training started, I think, in probably August.

[Assistant] What did your family? I mean, already you've eloped, but now you're telling your family that you're going into the Peace Corps, you're going to Central America.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he graduated Yale. And that was kind of like, yeah, that was very nice family get together.

[Assistant] So you have to give up your apartment. You've got stuff.

[User] It was a great apartment. And, uh, but you know, in those, I mean, you just take everything in stride when you're 21. What's the big deal? So we packed up and we stopped in Louisville, Kentucky, and went to a wedding of one of his classmates, which was very nice. And then we went back to Peoria, started getting ready to go to training. Our training started, I think, in probably August.

[Assistant] What did your family? I mean, already you've eloped, but now you're telling your family that you're going into the Peace Corps, you're going to Central America.

[User] Both families were amazingly supportive.

[Assistant] Were they? Good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a great apartment. And, uh, but you know, in those, I mean, you just take everything in stride when you're 21. What's the big deal? So we packed up and we stopped in Louisville, Kentucky, and went to a wedding of one of his classmates, which was very nice. And then we went back to Peoria, started getting ready to go to training. Our training started, I think, in probably August.

[Assistant] What did your family? I mean, already you've eloped, but now you're telling your family that you're going into the Peace Corps, you're going to Central America.

[User] Both families were amazingly supportive.

[Assistant] Were they? Good.

[User] There is some, lots of back stories in my family, but I think my mother always supported me. Whatever I wanted to do, it seemed like she always said that was a good idea. And my dad at that time, he was just kind of like a beaten person. He had just suffered so much and, um, I don't think he liked the idea. I think he was, he always wanted to keep me. He didn't even want me to go to Girl Scout camp when I was younger. I had to talk him into that. But I think all in all, he was proud of it and never, never argued with me about it. Never said no.

[Assistant] And your siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My sister was pretty young at that time. I think she was only 11. So, I mean, she was just a little girl.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And my older brothers were all gone. Well, there were only two left, and one was married and. Two were married actually, they had their own lives, so they didn't really weigh in very much.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I mean, maybe they did behind my back, but to my face they never said anything. In fact, I had a sister-in-law, my older brother's wife, and she was a very good seamstress. So I asked her to make me five dresses of the same pattern, different colors. So she made me five very nice dresses that I wore for the entire two years.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness. They were just right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my older brothers were all gone. Well, there were only two left, and one was married and. Two were married actually, they had their own lives, so they didn't really weigh in very much.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I mean, maybe they did behind my back, but to my face they never said anything. In fact, I had a sister-in-law, my older brother's wife, and she was a very good seamstress. So I asked her to make me five dresses of the same pattern, different colors. So she made me five very nice dresses that I wore for the entire two years.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness. They were just right.

[User] Yeah. I can remember them hanging on the little hangers. You know, see, the part about simplifying, simplifying our lives now, it really relates to that period of time where we, you know, we were limited to 200 pounds to take to Honduras. So many this, so many that, you know, clothes very simple. You had to wear dresses if you were a woman, no sandals if you were a man. That was considered to be more of a revolutionary sign, if men wore sandals. So yeah, we really had very few things and that sort of suited our mindset.

[Assistant] And even in training there was a limit to the amount of possessions you could take with you into training. So let's talk about training. You said, do you remember where in Saint Louis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, maybe they did behind my back, but to my face they never said anything. In fact, I had a sister-in-law, my older brother's wife, and she was a very good seamstress. So I asked her to make me five dresses of the same pattern, different colors. So she made me five very nice dresses that I wore for the entire two years.

[Assistant] Oh, my goodness. They were just right.

[User] Yeah. I can remember them hanging on the little hangers. You know, see, the part about simplifying, simplifying our lives now, it really relates to that period of time where we, you know, we were limited to 200 pounds to take to Honduras. So many this, so many that, you know, clothes very simple. You had to wear dresses if you were a woman, no sandals if you were a man. That was considered to be more of a revolutionary sign, if men wore sandals. So yeah, we really had very few things and that sort of suited our mindset.

[Assistant] And even in training there was a limit to the amount of possessions you could take with you into training. So let's talk about training. You said, do you remember where in Saint Louis?

[User] Well, we were in the YMCA, wherever the YMCA was, and um.

[Assistant] Downtown Saint Louis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I can remember them hanging on the little hangers. You know, see, the part about simplifying, simplifying our lives now, it really relates to that period of time where we, you know, we were limited to 200 pounds to take to Honduras. So many this, so many that, you know, clothes very simple. You had to wear dresses if you were a woman, no sandals if you were a man. That was considered to be more of a revolutionary sign, if men wore sandals. So yeah, we really had very few things and that sort of suited our mindset.

[Assistant] And even in training there was a limit to the amount of possessions you could take with you into training. So let's talk about training. You said, do you remember where in Saint Louis?

[User] Well, we were in the YMCA, wherever the YMCA was, and um.

[Assistant] Downtown Saint Louis?

[User] Downtown Saint Louis. Married couples were allowed to stay on one floor. We had, you know.

[Assistant] So you had your own room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were in the YMCA, wherever the YMCA was, and um.

[Assistant] Downtown Saint Louis?

[User] Downtown Saint Louis. Married couples were allowed to stay on one floor. We had, you know.

[Assistant] So you had your own room?

[User] We had our own room and our own bathroom. And, you know, it was a very, I think it was pretty demanding in terms of a training schedule.

[Assistant] Well, talk about that. What did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Downtown Saint Louis. Married couples were allowed to stay on one floor. We had, you know.

[Assistant] So you had your own room?

[User] We had our own room and our own bathroom. And, you know, it was a very, I think it was pretty demanding in terms of a training schedule.

[Assistant] Well, talk about that. What did you do?

[User] We had leaders. I can't remember their specific names, but we had leaders for different areas that were being taught. The Spanish language was really the very best. We had teachers that were mostly from Colombia, and as I remember them, they were just excellent teachers and that was the majority of our day. We did other things and one of the projects that we did in Saint Louis was to go to this incredibly horrible high rise project called Pruitt-Igoe, which was eventually imploded because it was such a hellhole for human life. The gangs had taken over the elevators, so there were, there was no elevator service. So what we did as volunteers, we would go and we would meet with people, probably adults and children. We would meet at picnic tables in the common areas outside. We didn't ever go into the projects themselves. And, uh, let's see.

[Assistant] So what you would as Peace Corps trainees, you'd go to that area right in front of the projects and you'd meet with residents there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had our own room and our own bathroom. And, you know, it was a very, I think it was pretty demanding in terms of a training schedule.

[Assistant] Well, talk about that. What did you do?

[User] We had leaders. I can't remember their specific names, but we had leaders for different areas that were being taught. The Spanish language was really the very best. We had teachers that were mostly from Colombia, and as I remember them, they were just excellent teachers and that was the majority of our day. We did other things and one of the projects that we did in Saint Louis was to go to this incredibly horrible high rise project called Pruitt-Igoe, which was eventually imploded because it was such a hellhole for human life. The gangs had taken over the elevators, so there were, there was no elevator service. So what we did as volunteers, we would go and we would meet with people, probably adults and children. We would meet at picnic tables in the common areas outside. We didn't ever go into the projects themselves. And, uh, let's see.

[Assistant] So what you would as Peace Corps trainees, you'd go to that area right in front of the projects and you'd meet with residents there?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] To do what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had leaders. I can't remember their specific names, but we had leaders for different areas that were being taught. The Spanish language was really the very best. We had teachers that were mostly from Colombia, and as I remember them, they were just excellent teachers and that was the majority of our day. We did other things and one of the projects that we did in Saint Louis was to go to this incredibly horrible high rise project called Pruitt-Igoe, which was eventually imploded because it was such a hellhole for human life. The gangs had taken over the elevators, so there were, there was no elevator service. So what we did as volunteers, we would go and we would meet with people, probably adults and children. We would meet at picnic tables in the common areas outside. We didn't ever go into the projects themselves. And, uh, let's see.

[Assistant] So what you would as Peace Corps trainees, you'd go to that area right in front of the projects and you'd meet with residents there?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] To do what?

[User] I don't know if we were doing literacy training, maybe it was playing with children. It was, it was a variety of things. Everything was so time oriented. I mean, we didn't have much time to do this, much time. So you kind of jump from project to project.

[Assistant] What time of year was this, summer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know if we were doing literacy training, maybe it was playing with children. It was, it was a variety of things. Everything was so time oriented. I mean, we didn't have much time to do this, much time. So you kind of jump from project to project.

[Assistant] What time of year was this, summer?

[User] Summer. Hot, hot in Saint Louis. Hot and humid. Like kind of like Florida is today.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, um, but pleasant. I mean, the camaraderie. Unpleasant in the sense of this deselection.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. Yes. What was that like? How did they, how did they do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I didn't like it. And that kind of followed a pattern in my life. Like when I was in high school, there were these things called spreads. They were these exclusive groups of girls who would get together from the different grade schools, and in high school they would kind of stick together and they'd establish their identity as being all the cute girls or the fast girls, I don't know. But I said, you know, I don't really want to be a part of that. I want to be able to hobnob with whoever.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Get to know people. And then in college, kind of the same thing again. I don't know why I was attracted to a sorority, but people talked me into that. I went through rush and then when I kind of realized what it was about and how girls came through year after year, and they were judged on different, you know, kind of superficial traits and abilities. I said, I'm not, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to do that at all. I will work in the kitchen. If you give me some food to prepare, I'll do that. I will be friendly and nice and smile at people. But I'm not going to do the evaluation of these girls as they walk through. And I quickly learned that there were no Blacks in our sorority, no Jews. It was all just pretty much middle, middle class white girls. And many of them, their parents, their mothers had been in that sorority. So they came in as what they were called legacies.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah.

[User] So the whole thing seemed pretty artificial to me, but I had my good friends and, you know, the three, the three double named women, we had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot and it kind of got me through.

[Assistant] So when you're in Peace Corps training, some of this is coming back. Some, the deselection process is reminding you of the exclusivity in those, those groupings that that you'd experienced in high school and again in college.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Get to know people. And then in college, kind of the same thing again. I don't know why I was attracted to a sorority, but people talked me into that. I went through rush and then when I kind of realized what it was about and how girls came through year after year, and they were judged on different, you know, kind of superficial traits and abilities. I said, I'm not, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to do that at all. I will work in the kitchen. If you give me some food to prepare, I'll do that. I will be friendly and nice and smile at people. But I'm not going to do the evaluation of these girls as they walk through. And I quickly learned that there were no Blacks in our sorority, no Jews. It was all just pretty much middle, middle class white girls. And many of them, their parents, their mothers had been in that sorority. So they came in as what they were called legacies.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah.

[User] So the whole thing seemed pretty artificial to me, but I had my good friends and, you know, the three, the three double named women, we had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot and it kind of got me through.

[Assistant] So when you're in Peace Corps training, some of this is coming back. Some, the deselection process is reminding you of the exclusivity in those, those groupings that that you'd experienced in high school and again in college.

[User] I thought, oh no. I thought this was going to be different.

[Assistant] Yeah. So how did they, um, how did they do deselection? Were there, did you have interviews with psychologists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the whole thing seemed pretty artificial to me, but I had my good friends and, you know, the three, the three double named women, we had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot and it kind of got me through.

[Assistant] So when you're in Peace Corps training, some of this is coming back. Some, the deselection process is reminding you of the exclusivity in those, those groupings that that you'd experienced in high school and again in college.

[User] I thought, oh no. I thought this was going to be different.

[Assistant] Yeah. So how did they, um, how did they do deselection? Were there, did you have interviews with psychologists?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Individual interviews? Do you remember those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought, oh no. I thought this was going to be different.

[Assistant] Yeah. So how did they, um, how did they do deselection? Were there, did you have interviews with psychologists?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Individual interviews? Do you remember those?

[User] Not really. I think I was nervous about them because of my family background. I was afraid, oh, this girl. This girl is high risk.

[Assistant] Because of your brother's suicide?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I think I was nervous about them because of my family background. I was afraid, oh, this girl. This girl is high risk.

[Assistant] Because of your brother's suicide?

[User] Yeah. And they also they actually went and interviewed my sorority sisters about my behavior when I was in college, which I thought was kind of.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] FBI-ish or something.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Did you get reports that FBI had been coming around to your neighborhood where your parents lived and talked to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And they also they actually went and interviewed my sorority sisters about my behavior when I was in college, which I thought was kind of.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] FBI-ish or something.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Did you get reports that FBI had been coming around to your neighborhood where your parents lived and talked to?

[User] No. Did you?

[Assistant] Yeah, they did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] FBI-ish or something.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Did you get reports that FBI had been coming around to your neighborhood where your parents lived and talked to?

[User] No. Did you?

[Assistant] Yeah, they did.

[User] No, maybe they did, but I never knew anything about it. Boy.

[Assistant] Well, and then was there a peer review?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Did you?

[Assistant] Yeah, they did.

[User] No, maybe they did, but I never knew anything about it. Boy.

[Assistant] Well, and then was there a peer review?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have to sort of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, maybe they did, but I never knew anything about it. Boy.

[Assistant] Well, and then was there a peer review?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have to sort of?

[User] Yeah, I think we did.

[Assistant] Indicate whether there was anybody in your group that you thought ought not to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Did you have to sort of?

[User] Yeah, I think we did.

[Assistant] Indicate whether there was anybody in your group that you thought ought not to go?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That's hard, isn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think we did.

[Assistant] Indicate whether there was anybody in your group that you thought ought not to go?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That's hard, isn't it?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were there people deselected that you in particular thought should not have been deselected? Were you, were you dismayed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were there people deselected that you in particular thought should not have been deselected? Were you, were you dismayed?

[User] I think I've kind of forgotten who the deselectees were. Some people dropped out.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I think a girl got pregnant. There was one who got pregnant, so she left. There was a Black prospective Peace Corps volunteer, and I think he got drafted out of Peace Corps training.

[Assistant] Oh my. Yeah, yeah. And was he the only Black person in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I've kind of forgotten who the deselectees were. Some people dropped out.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I think a girl got pregnant. There was one who got pregnant, so she left. There was a Black prospective Peace Corps volunteer, and I think he got drafted out of Peace Corps training.

[Assistant] Oh my. Yeah, yeah. And was he the only Black person in the group?

[User] No, there were several. There were several, but, uh, he was a very nice guy, and I think it was kind of a shock.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How many, how big a group was this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think a girl got pregnant. There was one who got pregnant, so she left. There was a Black prospective Peace Corps volunteer, and I think he got drafted out of Peace Corps training.

[Assistant] Oh my. Yeah, yeah. And was he the only Black person in the group?

[User] No, there were several. There were several, but, uh, he was a very nice guy, and I think it was kind of a shock.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How many, how big a group was this?

[User] I wish I had those statistics at my fingerprints. I would say, fingertips. I think, you know, the FBI fingerprints. I'm going to say there were 40 or 50 of us at the beginning. I think there were some people who went home when we were finished with training who had not been deselected but who never came back. Somehow they had a boyfriend or girlfriend or their parents.

[Assistant] So they chose not to come back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there were several. There were several, but, uh, he was a very nice guy, and I think it was kind of a shock.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. How many, how big a group was this?

[User] I wish I had those statistics at my fingerprints. I would say, fingertips. I think, you know, the FBI fingerprints. I'm going to say there were 40 or 50 of us at the beginning. I think there were some people who went home when we were finished with training who had not been deselected but who never came back. Somehow they had a boyfriend or girlfriend or their parents.

[Assistant] So they chose not to come back.

[User] And then they chose not to go. On the day that we're supposed to be meeting in Miami, we're looking around and say, oh, so-and-so's not here. Oh, that's funny.

[Assistant] Huh. So you can only assume that they chose not to go. A little bit more about training. You especially liked the way they taught Spanish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wish I had those statistics at my fingerprints. I would say, fingertips. I think, you know, the FBI fingerprints. I'm going to say there were 40 or 50 of us at the beginning. I think there were some people who went home when we were finished with training who had not been deselected but who never came back. Somehow they had a boyfriend or girlfriend or their parents.

[Assistant] So they chose not to come back.

[User] And then they chose not to go. On the day that we're supposed to be meeting in Miami, we're looking around and say, oh, so-and-so's not here. Oh, that's funny.

[Assistant] Huh. So you can only assume that they chose not to go. A little bit more about training. You especially liked the way they taught Spanish.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Could you describe how you were taught Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then they chose not to go. On the day that we're supposed to be meeting in Miami, we're looking around and say, oh, so-and-so's not here. Oh, that's funny.

[Assistant] Huh. So you can only assume that they chose not to go. A little bit more about training. You especially liked the way they taught Spanish.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Could you describe how you were taught Spanish?

[User] It was very oral. It was conversational Spanish and lots and lots of practice. You didn't, you know, you wouldn't like put your face in the book and just read something. It was like the teacher talking to you and you answering back. And I was complimented because I had a good accent. That gave me confidence. And I'd had the two years in high school.

[Assistant] That's right. So you had the grammar structure in your head?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Could you describe how you were taught Spanish?

[User] It was very oral. It was conversational Spanish and lots and lots of practice. You didn't, you know, you wouldn't like put your face in the book and just read something. It was like the teacher talking to you and you answering back. And I was complimented because I had a good accent. That gave me confidence. And I'd had the two years in high school.

[Assistant] That's right. So you had the grammar structure in your head?

[User] I think I did, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Sounds good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very oral. It was conversational Spanish and lots and lots of practice. You didn't, you know, you wouldn't like put your face in the book and just read something. It was like the teacher talking to you and you answering back. And I was complimented because I had a good accent. That gave me confidence. And I'd had the two years in high school.

[Assistant] That's right. So you had the grammar structure in your head?

[User] I think I did, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Sounds good.

[User] Don't ask me to say anything now but.

[Assistant] You were in small groups learning the language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I did, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Sounds good.

[User] Don't ask me to say anything now but.

[Assistant] You were in small groups learning the language?

[User] Yeah, I would say 10 to 12 maybe, with one instructor.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Uh huh. And what else, what else happened in training? Was there physical education stuff? Did they put you through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don't ask me to say anything now but.

[Assistant] You were in small groups learning the language?

[User] Yeah, I would say 10 to 12 maybe, with one instructor.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Uh huh. And what else, what else happened in training? Was there physical education stuff? Did they put you through?

[User] We did a garden. I remember doing that, planting a garden in St. Louis, and that was hot and sweaty. Yeah, we did. I think we went to gym. There was a gymnasium kind of setting.

[Assistant] Did you? Were there classes about Honduran history, politics?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I would say 10 to 12 maybe, with one instructor.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Uh huh. And what else, what else happened in training? Was there physical education stuff? Did they put you through?

[User] We did a garden. I remember doing that, planting a garden in St. Louis, and that was hot and sweaty. Yeah, we did. I think we went to gym. There was a gymnasium kind of setting.

[Assistant] Did you? Were there classes about Honduran history, politics?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Were there classes of American studies discussing communism?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did a garden. I remember doing that, planting a garden in St. Louis, and that was hot and sweaty. Yeah, we did. I think we went to gym. There was a gymnasium kind of setting.

[Assistant] Did you? Were there classes about Honduran history, politics?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Were there classes of American studies discussing communism?

[User] Uh, probably. I don't think it was like a huge emphasis. As I'm saying, I really think that they wanted us to be able to communicate in Spanish and so that was the focus. Our director, who was Ray Swan, he had a close relationship with a woman in Honduras named Maria de la Paz Ordonez.

[Assistant] When you say he was your director, you mean once you got to Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Were there classes of American studies discussing communism?

[User] Uh, probably. I don't think it was like a huge emphasis. As I'm saying, I really think that they wanted us to be able to communicate in Spanish and so that was the focus. Our director, who was Ray Swan, he had a close relationship with a woman in Honduras named Maria de la Paz Ordonez.

[Assistant] When you say he was your director, you mean once you got to Honduras?

[User] No, in Saint Louis.

[Assistant] Oh, in Saint Louis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, probably. I don't think it was like a huge emphasis. As I'm saying, I really think that they wanted us to be able to communicate in Spanish and so that was the focus. Our director, who was Ray Swan, he had a close relationship with a woman in Honduras named Maria de la Paz Ordonez.

[Assistant] When you say he was your director, you mean once you got to Honduras?

[User] No, in Saint Louis.

[Assistant] Oh, in Saint Louis.

[User] Yes. But he had this what I considered to be like this very close friendship with Maria de la Paz Ordonez. And he assured us that our group was going to be taken care of royally because of that good relationship. But then something happened in their relationship. They got into some kind of debacle. And so by the time we got to Honduras, like all plans had changed and we were not as welcome as we.

[Assistant] As you had expected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, in Saint Louis.

[Assistant] Oh, in Saint Louis.

[User] Yes. But he had this what I considered to be like this very close friendship with Maria de la Paz Ordonez. And he assured us that our group was going to be taken care of royally because of that good relationship. But then something happened in their relationship. They got into some kind of debacle. And so by the time we got to Honduras, like all plans had changed and we were not as welcome as we.

[Assistant] As you had expected.

[User] As we had been told.

[Assistant] You had said a few minutes ago that the men were told not to wear sandals because that would make them appear to be revolutionary. And so there's a, there is a political edge to this. They had, it sounds like they had an image they wanted the Peace Corps volunteers to present.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. But he had this what I considered to be like this very close friendship with Maria de la Paz Ordonez. And he assured us that our group was going to be taken care of royally because of that good relationship. But then something happened in their relationship. They got into some kind of debacle. And so by the time we got to Honduras, like all plans had changed and we were not as welcome as we.

[Assistant] As you had expected.

[User] As we had been told.

[Assistant] You had said a few minutes ago that the men were told not to wear sandals because that would make them appear to be revolutionary. And so there's a, there is a political edge to this. They had, it sounds like they had an image they wanted the Peace Corps volunteers to present.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That you were not to appear.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As we had been told.

[Assistant] You had said a few minutes ago that the men were told not to wear sandals because that would make them appear to be revolutionary. And so there's a, there is a political edge to this. They had, it sounds like they had an image they wanted the Peace Corps volunteers to present.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That you were not to appear.

[User] 1950s.

[Assistant] So how as a woman, how were you supposed to? As a woman, how were you supposed to dress?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That you were not to appear.

[User] 1950s.

[Assistant] So how as a woman, how were you supposed to? As a woman, how were you supposed to dress?

[User] Dresses. We were supposed to wear, you know, not fancy dresses.

[Assistant] But not blue jeans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1950s.

[Assistant] So how as a woman, how were you supposed to? As a woman, how were you supposed to dress?

[User] Dresses. We were supposed to wear, you know, not fancy dresses.

[Assistant] But not blue jeans.

[User] We didn't wear blue jeans. I didn't have any pants.

[Assistant] Yeah, that was pretty pre-blue jeans era.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Dresses. We were supposed to wear, you know, not fancy dresses.

[Assistant] But not blue jeans.

[User] We didn't wear blue jeans. I didn't have any pants.

[Assistant] Yeah, that was pretty pre-blue jeans era.

[User] Yeah, this was this 1968. Or '66. And even in college I don't think I wore, I mean, because it was so damn cold in the winter I would wear pants to get to class but.

[Assistant] So in that day to be told that you had to wear a skirt when you were in Honduras, it didn't seem that weird.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess we just fell in line.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] We were so young.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And we didn't want to get shipped off.

[Assistant] Yeah, we were 21. My gosh. Is there anything else you'd like to say about training before we move on to Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were so young.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And we didn't want to get shipped off.

[Assistant] Yeah, we were 21. My gosh. Is there anything else you'd like to say about training before we move on to Honduras?

[User] Well, I liked the camaraderie. I really did. Like once I got over kind of like who, we're going to be watched, you know, we got to talk to the shrink and maybe we won't make it. We kind of like eased into it and it was fun. And at the end of a long day, we would meet somewhere and have a drink and kind of relax. And so all in all, it was kind of a good feeling. It was kind of like being in another social group.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you were able to get away at night with some of your fellow trainees.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the end of the day, yeah, it seems like we took a bus to get back to the Y.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And we would take this bus.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We would sing like Guantanamera.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And you'd have parties and you'd go out for drinks?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we would take this bus.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] We would sing like Guantanamera.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And you'd have parties and you'd go out for drinks?

[User] Yeah, just short parties because we were usually so dead tired.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had to get up early.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We would sing like Guantanamera.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And you'd have parties and you'd go out for drinks?

[User] Yeah, just short parties because we were usually so dead tired.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had to get up early.

[User] Yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, so then did you have a chance to go back home and say goodbye to family before going to Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, just short parties because we were usually so dead tired.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had to get up early.

[User] Yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, so then did you have a chance to go back home and say goodbye to family before going to Honduras?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Talk about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, definitely.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay, so then did you have a chance to go back home and say goodbye to family before going to Honduras?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Talk about that.

[User] Well, let me think. Joe's parents actually came to Saint Louis. They always.

[Assistant] Oh, they visited you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Talk about that.

[User] Well, let me think. Joe's parents actually came to Saint Louis. They always.

[Assistant] Oh, they visited you?

[User] Yeah, they visited us when we were in training. So we had seen them at least once during that, was it eight weeks? I'm trying to think. It was July, August. And I think we went to country, in country by September or October.

[Assistant] So your training lasted two or three months.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, they visited us when we were in training. So we had seen them at least once during that, was it eight weeks? I'm trying to think. It was July, August. And I think we went to country, in country by September or October.

[Assistant] So your training lasted two or three months.

[User] Two and a half months, yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And again, nobody ever tried to say, oh, don't do it, don't go. And Honduras at that time, compared to now, was a relatively peaceful country, albeit poor. And there was a big presence there, United Fruit Company and the American military kind of supported the Honduran military. So I think while my father was nervous about my going far away, he also his fears were allayed because it was more peaceful than.

[Assistant] Than some other places. Yeah. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two and a half months, yeah.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And again, nobody ever tried to say, oh, don't do it, don't go. And Honduras at that time, compared to now, was a relatively peaceful country, albeit poor. And there was a big presence there, United Fruit Company and the American military kind of supported the Honduran military. So I think while my father was nervous about my going far away, he also his fears were allayed because it was more peaceful than.

[Assistant] Than some other places. Yeah. Yeah.

[User] You know, I think everybody, you know, what can you say? If it were my kids, I. The thing is, now we wouldn't be so cut off from our children if they decided to go anywhere in the world.

[Assistant] Oh, everybody's got a cell phone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And again, nobody ever tried to say, oh, don't do it, don't go. And Honduras at that time, compared to now, was a relatively peaceful country, albeit poor. And there was a big presence there, United Fruit Company and the American military kind of supported the Honduran military. So I think while my father was nervous about my going far away, he also his fears were allayed because it was more peaceful than.

[Assistant] Than some other places. Yeah. Yeah.

[User] You know, I think everybody, you know, what can you say? If it were my kids, I. The thing is, now we wouldn't be so cut off from our children if they decided to go anywhere in the world.

[Assistant] Oh, everybody's got a cell phone.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] But not in the, not in the 1960s.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I think everybody, you know, what can you say? If it were my kids, I. The thing is, now we wouldn't be so cut off from our children if they decided to go anywhere in the world.

[Assistant] Oh, everybody's got a cell phone.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] But not in the, not in the 1960s.

[User] We had nothing. I mean, it was snail mail.

[Assistant] That's right. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] But not in the, not in the 1960s.

[User] We had nothing. I mean, it was snail mail.

[Assistant] That's right. Yeah.

[User] Even that was iffy.

[Assistant] Yeah. So in saying goodbye to your parents, there was that awareness that you're, you're going to be out of contact.