[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ken Bowersox didn’t. I don’t think Ken was particularly enamored with it. He wasn’t interested in it, and so it was myself and Ellen Baker, for the most part. Ellen thought it was as much fun as I did, because she was on the other shift, and she was worried she wouldn’t have anything to do. So as soon as I got done, she would get on, and she said she’d go over her list of girlfriends that she had collected on her side of the world that she flies over when we’re asleep. So she had a ball, too. Ellen and I still have fun recalling that experience.

[Assistant] I noticed your crew was up during the Fourth of July. Did you have any sort of celebration?

[User] Not a lot. Not a lot. No, we took out a moment to honor America and tried to do the best we could with that sort of thing, but there wasn’t really much about that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Any other interesting anecdotes from this flight or landing?

[User] No, not that I can talk about. No, everything else, it was a great flight, and we had some physical problems brought about by that much time in space. None of it affected the crew that mattered in entry. We were all in good shape, but we learned a lot during that flight, let me put it like that, that help people fly those long-duration flights. Again, that’s you have to do the unique thing we do, which is land the vehicle after that. But, yes. No, everything else was routine.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you want to talk about your last flight, or should we wait until next time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a lot. Not a lot. No, we took out a moment to honor America and tried to do the best we could with that sort of thing, but there wasn’t really much about that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Any other interesting anecdotes from this flight or landing?

[User] No, not that I can talk about. No, everything else, it was a great flight, and we had some physical problems brought about by that much time in space. None of it affected the crew that mattered in entry. We were all in good shape, but we learned a lot during that flight, let me put it like that, that help people fly those long-duration flights. Again, that’s you have to do the unique thing we do, which is land the vehicle after that. But, yes. No, everything else was routine.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you want to talk about your last flight, or should we wait until next time?

[User] What time is it here? Well, let’s see here. Let me see what I got going on here, see what the next event is. We’ll see.

[Assistant] I just have one more question about this flight. Did you have any sort of PR tours after this flight? Did you go to Europe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not that I can talk about. No, everything else, it was a great flight, and we had some physical problems brought about by that much time in space. None of it affected the crew that mattered in entry. We were all in good shape, but we learned a lot during that flight, let me put it like that, that help people fly those long-duration flights. Again, that’s you have to do the unique thing we do, which is land the vehicle after that. But, yes. No, everything else was routine.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you want to talk about your last flight, or should we wait until next time?

[User] What time is it here? Well, let’s see here. Let me see what I got going on here, see what the next event is. We’ll see.

[Assistant] I just have one more question about this flight. Did you have any sort of PR tours after this flight? Did you go to Europe?

[User] Let’s see. Europe, yes, I think. I’m trying to remember, where did we go? It was the United States Microgravity Laboratories. So no, we didn’t go to Europe. We went back up to Washington, D.C., to thank the congressional people that supported that particular flight. Then my recollection is the Cook Islands was—that sort of overpowered all the other events. I’m sure we did other things, but I just don’t remember them.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about STS-64?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember it all went routine, and the fact that later, a later flight turned out to be they ended up deploying SPARTAN the same like we did, and ended up misconfiguring it and almost losing the spacecraft. It made me very thankful for the crew I had, because Sue [Susan J.] Helms was the—now General Helms—was the mission specialist in charge of SPARTAN, along with some help from Carl Meade on that thing, and they made it go routine. In fact, I don’t remember being worried about it at all. Later, watching that later flight, I said, “Boy, I should have been a lot more worried about that thing.” But I wasn’t, and they did a wonderful job with it, both on the deployment and then the rendezvous itself, all went just like I hoped it was, routine, and brought that thing in and hovered it over the payload bay and turned it over to Susan, who just maneuvered the arm right over, grabbed it, and we stuck it in the bay, and it was all very satisfying, because it worked very, very well.

[Assistant] There was a volcano that exploded in New Guinea.

[User] Yes, there was. There was.

[Assistant] Can you talk about that?

[User] Yes, it just sort of showed up. All of a sudden the ground, Earth Ops people, said, “There’s a volcano that might go. Take a look for it on your next rev.” And literally, we’d flown over it the previous rev and not seen anything, and the next rev we came back over and it was obvious. We could see this smoke and ash cloud streaming almost maybe seven, eight hundred miles away, and then flew over it, and it was very present. Made us glad we were there, and not down there where those poor people were having to deal with that thing. But it was a very impressive act of nature.

[Assistant] Any other recollections from this mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not a lot. I had Program Integration, so that my people did work the debris transport work during the flight. We knew the piece had come off. We knew it had broken up into two or three pieces. We had to model where it could have hit, and then pass it on to the Orbiter. So we had done all that work, and all we could do was give them a range of probabilities, all the way from the leading edge of the wing to the wheel well area, about where it might have hit. We knew it hit, we just didn’t know where, because the photography, it looked like it was under the side of a wing, but we couldn’t tell for sure, so we gave them probabilities as far as where it could hit. So we went back over that work; impounded all that data, because we knew, or it didn’t take too long to figure out, that that had something to do with it. Got all the people involved that did the transport analysis, analytical work, locked their desks. We told them to go home; don’t talk to anybody, get ready for a long, arduous process. So that’s what we did.

[Assistant] So you were primarily involved in the investigation?

[User] Not really, no. Because I ran Program Integration, I think they thought I was too close to it. I was surprised by that. I would have thought I would have been, but they decided to keep me out of that sort of thing. It was really a NASA show, and our people was just there to support NASA in their investigation, both in the Orbiter side and the integration side. I would have thought I would have done a lot, but I really didn’t. I really didn’t.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s what it sounds like.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So what have you been doing since the\n\n Columbia\n\n accident?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Every case was different of course. Typically it would take maybe one month occupancy time for the first round of testing of new airplane. But then it would come back for further testing, a few weeks at a time, during the year.

[Assistant] Was the tunnel continually used? Was something always ready to go in?

[User] Usually at that time it was on double shift operation, yes.

[Assistant] Were you in charge of all the people that were doing the testing of those?

[User] I was there from 1960 until I retired in 1982. In that time I was promoted to become head of the Aeroelasticity Branch, the position I held until becoming Chief Scientist of the Loads and Aeroelasticity Division in 1980. At the time I left the Branch there were about 30 people including the technicians. All these people were really top-notch. I just can’t tell you what a great bunch of people they were and how smart they were. Many times we would have postdoc [post-doctoral] fellows come in and spend a year working in the Tunnel. They would come from countries like Japan and India and Israel. We had an MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts] postdoc fellow and he eventually after that became a NASA employee and assumed management positions at Langley, at Kennedy, became Director of Glenn Research Center, and is now Associate Director of NASA. His name is Dr. Woodrow Whitlow. You probably know him.

[Assistant] Yes, I have met him. That’s nice. That’s interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Usually at that time it was on double shift operation, yes.

[Assistant] Were you in charge of all the people that were doing the testing of those?

[User] I was there from 1960 until I retired in 1982. In that time I was promoted to become head of the Aeroelasticity Branch, the position I held until becoming Chief Scientist of the Loads and Aeroelasticity Division in 1980. At the time I left the Branch there were about 30 people including the technicians. All these people were really top-notch. I just can’t tell you what a great bunch of people they were and how smart they were. Many times we would have postdoc [post-doctoral] fellows come in and spend a year working in the Tunnel. They would come from countries like Japan and India and Israel. We had an MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts] postdoc fellow and he eventually after that became a NASA employee and assumed management positions at Langley, at Kennedy, became Director of Glenn Research Center, and is now Associate Director of NASA. His name is Dr. Woodrow Whitlow. You probably know him.

[Assistant] Yes, I have met him. That’s nice. That’s interesting.

[User] He came out of our pocket at the Transonic Dynamics Tunnel and has gone up like a rocket himself. Very good man.

[Assistant] Yes. Could you share with us about the team that was at that tunnel? I know you mentioned there were technicians. Of course you were there. The different roles that the different groups, and how they worked together to get these results.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was there from 1960 until I retired in 1982. In that time I was promoted to become head of the Aeroelasticity Branch, the position I held until becoming Chief Scientist of the Loads and Aeroelasticity Division in 1980. At the time I left the Branch there were about 30 people including the technicians. All these people were really top-notch. I just can’t tell you what a great bunch of people they were and how smart they were. Many times we would have postdoc [post-doctoral] fellows come in and spend a year working in the Tunnel. They would come from countries like Japan and India and Israel. We had an MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts] postdoc fellow and he eventually after that became a NASA employee and assumed management positions at Langley, at Kennedy, became Director of Glenn Research Center, and is now Associate Director of NASA. His name is Dr. Woodrow Whitlow. You probably know him.

[Assistant] Yes, I have met him. That’s nice. That’s interesting.

[User] He came out of our pocket at the Transonic Dynamics Tunnel and has gone up like a rocket himself. Very good man.

[Assistant] Yes. Could you share with us about the team that was at that tunnel? I know you mentioned there were technicians. Of course you were there. The different roles that the different groups, and how they worked together to get these results.

[User] At the time the Aeroelasticity Branch consisted of three engineering sections and two technician sections. The engineering sections oversaw flutter testing, aeroelastic analysis and rotorcraft dynamics respectively; the technician sections handled tunnel operations and test support.

[Assistant] As these projects came in were they assigned by the branch head to work with certain teams?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He came out of our pocket at the Transonic Dynamics Tunnel and has gone up like a rocket himself. Very good man.

[Assistant] Yes. Could you share with us about the team that was at that tunnel? I know you mentioned there were technicians. Of course you were there. The different roles that the different groups, and how they worked together to get these results.

[User] At the time the Aeroelasticity Branch consisted of three engineering sections and two technician sections. The engineering sections oversaw flutter testing, aeroelastic analysis and rotorcraft dynamics respectively; the technician sections handled tunnel operations and test support.

[Assistant] As these projects came in were they assigned by the branch head to work with certain teams?

[User] Team assignments were based on the skills needed to best support the project in question. For example, in flutter model testing, to help show that the full scale aircraft will be flutter free over its operating envelope, the test engineer must know the signs of an approaching flutter condition so as to avoid destruction of the model. Likewise, the tunnel operator technician must be alert to the call for rapid cut back of tunnel speed. Assignments for tests relating to helicopters would naturally come from the rotorcraft dynamics section. Assignment to do in-house research and/or other outside projects could come from anywhere within the branch.

[Assistant] Were there very many rejections when there was a request for the tunnel by outside people? If you had to make a decision on who got to use the wind tunnel for a test, were there times that you rejected people who wanted to use the Tunnel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At the time the Aeroelasticity Branch consisted of three engineering sections and two technician sections. The engineering sections oversaw flutter testing, aeroelastic analysis and rotorcraft dynamics respectively; the technician sections handled tunnel operations and test support.

[Assistant] As these projects came in were they assigned by the branch head to work with certain teams?

[User] Team assignments were based on the skills needed to best support the project in question. For example, in flutter model testing, to help show that the full scale aircraft will be flutter free over its operating envelope, the test engineer must know the signs of an approaching flutter condition so as to avoid destruction of the model. Likewise, the tunnel operator technician must be alert to the call for rapid cut back of tunnel speed. Assignments for tests relating to helicopters would naturally come from the rotorcraft dynamics section. Assignment to do in-house research and/or other outside projects could come from anywhere within the branch.

[Assistant] Were there very many rejections when there was a request for the tunnel by outside people? If you had to make a decision on who got to use the wind tunnel for a test, were there times that you rejected people who wanted to use the Tunnel?

[User] Yes, if they came in with a proposed test that we felt was low priority or not needed. At that time the schedule was always packed and there were people in line, maybe a year delay before they could get their entrance.

[Assistant] Because this Tunnel was very unique.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Team assignments were based on the skills needed to best support the project in question. For example, in flutter model testing, to help show that the full scale aircraft will be flutter free over its operating envelope, the test engineer must know the signs of an approaching flutter condition so as to avoid destruction of the model. Likewise, the tunnel operator technician must be alert to the call for rapid cut back of tunnel speed. Assignments for tests relating to helicopters would naturally come from the rotorcraft dynamics section. Assignment to do in-house research and/or other outside projects could come from anywhere within the branch.

[Assistant] Were there very many rejections when there was a request for the tunnel by outside people? If you had to make a decision on who got to use the wind tunnel for a test, were there times that you rejected people who wanted to use the Tunnel?

[User] Yes, if they came in with a proposed test that we felt was low priority or not needed. At that time the schedule was always packed and there were people in line, maybe a year delay before they could get their entrance.

[Assistant] Because this Tunnel was very unique.

[User] It was a unique tunnel; it had features that are still unique. First it had a different gas. It could be tested in air or a heavy gas called Freon-12. This heavy gas was used because it eased the difficulty of designing flutter models. Flutter models must be designed to have the proper flexibility and weight, and this becomes very difficult if those scaling factors have to be matched in air. It’s much easier if you have a heavy gas.\n\n Also the speed of sound in Freon is lower than it is in air, so the power required is much less. There are a number of reasons for that. Also the pressure of the Tunnel can be varied so that you can test at simulated altitudes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. When you were describing the test, when you talked about the models, were there specific criteria for what you would take as a model? Or did the manufacturer provide the model that they wanted tested?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, if they came in with a proposed test that we felt was low priority or not needed. At that time the schedule was always packed and there were people in line, maybe a year delay before they could get their entrance.

[Assistant] Because this Tunnel was very unique.

[User] It was a unique tunnel; it had features that are still unique. First it had a different gas. It could be tested in air or a heavy gas called Freon-12. This heavy gas was used because it eased the difficulty of designing flutter models. Flutter models must be designed to have the proper flexibility and weight, and this becomes very difficult if those scaling factors have to be matched in air. It’s much easier if you have a heavy gas.\n\n Also the speed of sound in Freon is lower than it is in air, so the power required is much less. There are a number of reasons for that. Also the pressure of the Tunnel can be varied so that you can test at simulated altitudes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. When you were describing the test, when you talked about the models, were there specific criteria for what you would take as a model? Or did the manufacturer provide the model that they wanted tested?

[User] Usually the manufacturer would provide the model, however, it would have to satisfy all criteria required for the test. But in many cases we would do research on models that were built in house.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to design some of those models since you had that expertise of being a model builder?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a unique tunnel; it had features that are still unique. First it had a different gas. It could be tested in air or a heavy gas called Freon-12. This heavy gas was used because it eased the difficulty of designing flutter models. Flutter models must be designed to have the proper flexibility and weight, and this becomes very difficult if those scaling factors have to be matched in air. It’s much easier if you have a heavy gas.\n\n Also the speed of sound in Freon is lower than it is in air, so the power required is much less. There are a number of reasons for that. Also the pressure of the Tunnel can be varied so that you can test at simulated altitudes.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. When you were describing the test, when you talked about the models, were there specific criteria for what you would take as a model? Or did the manufacturer provide the model that they wanted tested?

[User] Usually the manufacturer would provide the model, however, it would have to satisfy all criteria required for the test. But in many cases we would do research on models that were built in house.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to design some of those models since you had that expertise of being a model builder?

[User] No, that didn’t flow over into TDT. I did, however, build some models at home that I ran in Langley low speed tunnels, mostly for demonstration purposes: propeller whirl flutter, flutter-model mount system, hanging chain damper, stop sign flutter.

[Assistant] When you first shared with us you talked about Bob Champine. Did you get to work with him much more after you went to work with the tunnel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Usually the manufacturer would provide the model, however, it would have to satisfy all criteria required for the test. But in many cases we would do research on models that were built in house.

[Assistant] Did you get a chance to design some of those models since you had that expertise of being a model builder?

[User] No, that didn’t flow over into TDT. I did, however, build some models at home that I ran in Langley low speed tunnels, mostly for demonstration purposes: propeller whirl flutter, flutter-model mount system, hanging chain damper, stop sign flutter.

[Assistant] When you first shared with us you talked about Bob Champine. Did you get to work with him much more after you went to work with the tunnel?

[User] No, not after that, except we attended model airplane meetings and contests together, which he usually won.

[Assistant] He was a good rival. Did you have any interest in going with Chris Kraft and Chuck Mathews to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that didn’t flow over into TDT. I did, however, build some models at home that I ran in Langley low speed tunnels, mostly for demonstration purposes: propeller whirl flutter, flutter-model mount system, hanging chain damper, stop sign flutter.

[Assistant] When you first shared with us you talked about Bob Champine. Did you get to work with him much more after you went to work with the tunnel?

[User] No, not after that, except we attended model airplane meetings and contests together, which he usually won.

[Assistant] He was a good rival. Did you have any interest in going with Chris Kraft and Chuck Mathews to Houston?

[User] Not really, because at TDT I could work on both aeronautic and space related projects. TDT support of the Saturn-Apollo mission is a good example. Here we tested scale models of the Saturn-V erected on the launch pad to study the effects of ground wind loads. From these tests we discovered that at a scaled wind speed of 55 knots, the Saturn would oscillate at levels that exceeded its structural design loads of the full scale vehicle. These Saturn model studies revealed not only a potential problem but also a solution for it, namely, to add dampers to suppress the vibrations. Such dampers, in the form of shock absorbers, like those on your car only larger, were then installed as a connecting links between the vehicle to the launch tower.

[Assistant] That was determined because of the work that was done here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not after that, except we attended model airplane meetings and contests together, which he usually won.

[Assistant] He was a good rival. Did you have any interest in going with Chris Kraft and Chuck Mathews to Houston?

[User] Not really, because at TDT I could work on both aeronautic and space related projects. TDT support of the Saturn-Apollo mission is a good example. Here we tested scale models of the Saturn-V erected on the launch pad to study the effects of ground wind loads. From these tests we discovered that at a scaled wind speed of 55 knots, the Saturn would oscillate at levels that exceeded its structural design loads of the full scale vehicle. These Saturn model studies revealed not only a potential problem but also a solution for it, namely, to add dampers to suppress the vibrations. Such dampers, in the form of shock absorbers, like those on your car only larger, were then installed as a connecting links between the vehicle to the launch tower.

[Assistant] That was determined because of the work that was done here.

[User] Yes, it was the fruit of work done at TDT.

[Assistant] That’s something to be very proud of, because that was very needed, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was the fruit of work done at TDT.

[Assistant] That’s something to be very proud of, because that was very needed, wasn’t it?

[User] A similar wind-loads problem was encountered on a Navy antenna system consisting of an array of 24-foot tall vertically standing tube-like structures. At certain wind speeds the antenna would vibrate causing fatigue cracks in the structure. We found in the wind tunnel tests of a full-size antenna that a cluster of rubber covered chains hung inside of the antenna tip would dampen out the vibration. The so called Hanging-Chain Impact Damper was patented and has been used commercially in similar structures including lamp poles on highways and a sports stadium..\n\n During launch of the first Saturn-V at Kennedy Space Center [Florida] windows in the Launch Control Room appeared to rattle and vibrate due to the extreme noise generated by the Saturn rockets. Stories were coming out that the vibration deflections were as much as four inches. There was a lot of concern because the 20-foot-high wall of windows sloped inward over the heads of people seated underneath. The folks at Kennedy sought Langley’s help in finding a fix, so, it was decided to take a look at using chain dampers. A prototype damper, consisting of a 20-foot long tube with a rubber-coated chain inside, was quickly assembled, calibrated and shipped to Kennedy in time for installation on one of the window trusses before the next launch. I was in the control room during the launch, and we found from the instrumented window recordings that the levels of window vibration, with or without the damper attached, were indeed benign. What appeared to be dangerous vibrations of the glass were, in fact, just reflections due to minor motions.

[Assistant] It’s an interesting problem to solve, wasn’t it?

[User] Turned out to be a non-problem.

[Assistant] Were you there for a launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A similar wind-loads problem was encountered on a Navy antenna system consisting of an array of 24-foot tall vertically standing tube-like structures. At certain wind speeds the antenna would vibrate causing fatigue cracks in the structure. We found in the wind tunnel tests of a full-size antenna that a cluster of rubber covered chains hung inside of the antenna tip would dampen out the vibration. The so called Hanging-Chain Impact Damper was patented and has been used commercially in similar structures including lamp poles on highways and a sports stadium..\n\n During launch of the first Saturn-V at Kennedy Space Center [Florida] windows in the Launch Control Room appeared to rattle and vibrate due to the extreme noise generated by the Saturn rockets. Stories were coming out that the vibration deflections were as much as four inches. There was a lot of concern because the 20-foot-high wall of windows sloped inward over the heads of people seated underneath. The folks at Kennedy sought Langley’s help in finding a fix, so, it was decided to take a look at using chain dampers. A prototype damper, consisting of a 20-foot long tube with a rubber-coated chain inside, was quickly assembled, calibrated and shipped to Kennedy in time for installation on one of the window trusses before the next launch. I was in the control room during the launch, and we found from the instrumented window recordings that the levels of window vibration, with or without the damper attached, were indeed benign. What appeared to be dangerous vibrations of the glass were, in fact, just reflections due to minor motions.

[Assistant] It’s an interesting problem to solve, wasn’t it?

[User] Turned out to be a non-problem.

[Assistant] Were you there for a launch?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] You got a launch, that was a nice, you got to be there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Turned out to be a non-problem.

[Assistant] Were you there for a launch?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] You got a launch, that was a nice, you got to be there.

[User] That was Saturn number two.

[Assistant] That was great. You were here until the mid ’80s, is that what you said?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] You got a launch, that was a nice, you got to be there.

[User] That was Saturn number two.

[Assistant] That was great. You were here until the mid ’80s, is that what you said?

[User] I retired in ’82.

[Assistant] 1982. You had gone from pre-space days to the [Space] Shuttle era, because the Shuttle had launched in ’81. Did you have any work at all that you did with the Space Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was Saturn number two.

[Assistant] That was great. You were here until the mid ’80s, is that what you said?

[User] I retired in ’82.

[Assistant] 1982. You had gone from pre-space days to the [Space] Shuttle era, because the Shuttle had launched in ’81. Did you have any work at all that you did with the Space Shuttle?

[User] Oh, absolutely. All components of the Space Shuttle were tested individually: the vertical tail, the wing, and the fully assembled Shuttle, all were tested using aeroelastically scaled models.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts as an aeronautical expert when you first saw the design of the orbiter?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I retired in ’82.

[Assistant] 1982. You had gone from pre-space days to the [Space] Shuttle era, because the Shuttle had launched in ’81. Did you have any work at all that you did with the Space Shuttle?

[User] Oh, absolutely. All components of the Space Shuttle were tested individually: the vertical tail, the wing, and the fully assembled Shuttle, all were tested using aeroelastically scaled models.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts as an aeronautical expert when you first saw the design of the orbiter?

[User] It looked like a slow airplane to me. But yes, we were heavily involved not only in the Shuttle program but also supported the Viking Mars mission. Because the TDT could simulate the near-vacuum atmosphere of Mars, a Viking Lander model was used to help find optimum locations for mounting wind sensors. Tests were also performed on the Lander’s parachute.

[Assistant] You’ve gone a lot of places without ever leaving that wind tunnel, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely. All components of the Space Shuttle were tested individually: the vertical tail, the wing, and the fully assembled Shuttle, all were tested using aeroelastically scaled models.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts as an aeronautical expert when you first saw the design of the orbiter?

[User] It looked like a slow airplane to me. But yes, we were heavily involved not only in the Shuttle program but also supported the Viking Mars mission. Because the TDT could simulate the near-vacuum atmosphere of Mars, a Viking Lander model was used to help find optimum locations for mounting wind sensors. Tests were also performed on the Lander’s parachute.

[Assistant] You’ve gone a lot of places without ever leaving that wind tunnel, didn’t you?

[User] Oh yes. It was a job that you shouldn’t be paid for, it was so much fun.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s neat. You’ve seen the Viking lander and the Shuttle and the Saturn, plus corporate or manufacturer type of models. Were there any others that you remember that were very unique for a flying machine to come out of your tunnel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It looked like a slow airplane to me. But yes, we were heavily involved not only in the Shuttle program but also supported the Viking Mars mission. Because the TDT could simulate the near-vacuum atmosphere of Mars, a Viking Lander model was used to help find optimum locations for mounting wind sensors. Tests were also performed on the Lander’s parachute.

[Assistant] You’ve gone a lot of places without ever leaving that wind tunnel, didn’t you?

[User] Oh yes. It was a job that you shouldn’t be paid for, it was so much fun.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s neat. You’ve seen the Viking lander and the Shuttle and the Saturn, plus corporate or manufacturer type of models. Were there any others that you remember that were very unique for a flying machine to come out of your tunnel?

[User] [Dr. Francis] Rogallo’s fabric kite that was not a kite, a hang glider I guess it would be, it was considered as a recovery item for the Mercury or Gemini launch vehicle, and that was tested in the tunnel as well as parachutes.

[Assistant] During those first days of the space race, many people, especially in Houston, were working almost round the clock to move the space program faster. Did you see that here as well with the testing that you were doing for some of the spacecraft that were coming through here? Was your area working as you mentioned the double shifts and long hours to get those done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. It was a job that you shouldn’t be paid for, it was so much fun.

[Assistant] Oh, that’s neat. You’ve seen the Viking lander and the Shuttle and the Saturn, plus corporate or manufacturer type of models. Were there any others that you remember that were very unique for a flying machine to come out of your tunnel?

[User] [Dr. Francis] Rogallo’s fabric kite that was not a kite, a hang glider I guess it would be, it was considered as a recovery item for the Mercury or Gemini launch vehicle, and that was tested in the tunnel as well as parachutes.

[Assistant] During those first days of the space race, many people, especially in Houston, were working almost round the clock to move the space program faster. Did you see that here as well with the testing that you were doing for some of the spacecraft that were coming through here? Was your area working as you mentioned the double shifts and long hours to get those done?

[User] Oh yes, double shifts were standard. On the Saturn models we also measured the unsteady pressure loads due to buffeting. We studied ground wind load effects on many of the launch vehicles starting with the Scout and followed by Titan and Saturn models and, as of late, the Ares vehicle.

[Assistant] That’s good. Have you been able to go out? Do they still let you come out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Dr. Francis] Rogallo’s fabric kite that was not a kite, a hang glider I guess it would be, it was considered as a recovery item for the Mercury or Gemini launch vehicle, and that was tested in the tunnel as well as parachutes.

[Assistant] During those first days of the space race, many people, especially in Houston, were working almost round the clock to move the space program faster. Did you see that here as well with the testing that you were doing for some of the spacecraft that were coming through here? Was your area working as you mentioned the double shifts and long hours to get those done?

[User] Oh yes, double shifts were standard. On the Saturn models we also measured the unsteady pressure loads due to buffeting. We studied ground wind load effects on many of the launch vehicles starting with the Scout and followed by Titan and Saturn models and, as of late, the Ares vehicle.

[Assistant] That’s good. Have you been able to go out? Do they still let you come out?

[User] I go out there occasionally. I was what they call a Distinguished Research Associate for a couple years, after retiring. Also, I’ve been involved in setting up an archival library in the TDT for collecting, among other things, technical reports by people that retire, and box loads of documents, pictures and movies.

[Assistant] Good for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, double shifts were standard. On the Saturn models we also measured the unsteady pressure loads due to buffeting. We studied ground wind load effects on many of the launch vehicles starting with the Scout and followed by Titan and Saturn models and, as of late, the Ares vehicle.

[Assistant] That’s good. Have you been able to go out? Do they still let you come out?

[User] I go out there occasionally. I was what they call a Distinguished Research Associate for a couple years, after retiring. Also, I’ve been involved in setting up an archival library in the TDT for collecting, among other things, technical reports by people that retire, and box loads of documents, pictures and movies.

[Assistant] Good for you.

[User] All that got organized thanks to my friend Bob [Robert V.] Doggett, who succeeded me as branch head. There is now a room dedicated to the archives of TDT and other things. Most everything stored has been cataloged on the computer, so one can go there and search out things.

[Assistant] That’s an amazing tool that you have provided for people. Good, that’s great. When you were with NACA and then almost overnight it became NASA, did you feel any transition? Was there anything different from one group to the other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I go out there occasionally. I was what they call a Distinguished Research Associate for a couple years, after retiring. Also, I’ve been involved in setting up an archival library in the TDT for collecting, among other things, technical reports by people that retire, and box loads of documents, pictures and movies.

[Assistant] Good for you.

[User] All that got organized thanks to my friend Bob [Robert V.] Doggett, who succeeded me as branch head. There is now a room dedicated to the archives of TDT and other things. Most everything stored has been cataloged on the computer, so one can go there and search out things.

[Assistant] That’s an amazing tool that you have provided for people. Good, that’s great. When you were with NACA and then almost overnight it became NASA, did you feel any transition? Was there anything different from one group to the other?

[User] Of course in my work I had a transitioned from flight research to wind tunnels, at the very time it became NASA. I don’t know which was which as far as affecting my career. I really don’t know.

[Assistant] You mentioned your wife earlier. Did she work out here as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All that got organized thanks to my friend Bob [Robert V.] Doggett, who succeeded me as branch head. There is now a room dedicated to the archives of TDT and other things. Most everything stored has been cataloged on the computer, so one can go there and search out things.

[Assistant] That’s an amazing tool that you have provided for people. Good, that’s great. When you were with NACA and then almost overnight it became NASA, did you feel any transition? Was there anything different from one group to the other?

[User] Of course in my work I had a transitioned from flight research to wind tunnels, at the very time it became NASA. I don’t know which was which as far as affecting my career. I really don’t know.

[Assistant] You mentioned your wife earlier. Did she work out here as well?

[User] No.

[Assistant] But your home was here in Hampton close by?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course in my work I had a transitioned from flight research to wind tunnels, at the very time it became NASA. I don’t know which was which as far as affecting my career. I really don’t know.

[Assistant] You mentioned your wife earlier. Did she work out here as well?

[User] No.

[Assistant] But your home was here in Hampton close by?

[User] Yes. One interesting aside. When we came here in 1948 there were other NACA guys my age that were new here. We all needed homes. There were six of us that bought property on a newly developed little dead-end road. We decided to build our own houses—literally. We helped each other raise the roof. In three years’ period we had each built our own house, and were living in it. I still live in a remodeled and enlarged version that house.

[Assistant] It’s a well-built home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] But your home was here in Hampton close by?

[User] Yes. One interesting aside. When we came here in 1948 there were other NACA guys my age that were new here. We all needed homes. There were six of us that bought property on a newly developed little dead-end road. We decided to build our own houses—literally. We helped each other raise the roof. In three years’ period we had each built our own house, and were living in it. I still live in a remodeled and enlarged version that house.

[Assistant] It’s a well-built home.

[User] The others are all gone. Some went to Houston; the rest are probably in heaven by now. But I thought it was interesting that we didn’t know a thing about building houses at the beginning, but at the end knew more than you care to hear about.

[Assistant] The first one got in his house earlier, but the last one had a house that knew more.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. One interesting aside. When we came here in 1948 there were other NACA guys my age that were new here. We all needed homes. There were six of us that bought property on a newly developed little dead-end road. We decided to build our own houses—literally. We helped each other raise the roof. In three years’ period we had each built our own house, and were living in it. I still live in a remodeled and enlarged version that house.

[Assistant] It’s a well-built home.

[User] The others are all gone. Some went to Houston; the rest are probably in heaven by now. But I thought it was interesting that we didn’t know a thing about building houses at the beginning, but at the end knew more than you care to hear about.

[Assistant] The first one got in his house earlier, but the last one had a house that knew more.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It’s a beautiful area. We’ve enjoyed seeing so much of what’s there. I guess you saw lots of changes on Langley as well, on the field.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The others are all gone. Some went to Houston; the rest are probably in heaven by now. But I thought it was interesting that we didn’t know a thing about building houses at the beginning, but at the end knew more than you care to hear about.

[Assistant] The first one got in his house earlier, but the last one had a house that knew more.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] It’s a beautiful area. We’ve enjoyed seeing so much of what’s there. I guess you saw lots of changes on Langley as well, on the field.

[User] Oh yes. The Flight Research Division when I came here was located in the East Area. They had a hangar on the flight line. About five years later they moved to a new hangar in the West Area of NASA.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. Did you make a lot of improvements to the facility while you were there? Or did the facility stay pretty much the same?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, I think so.

[Assistant] You knew test pilots. Did you ever have any desire to be one yourself?

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant]
That was a quick answer.

No regrets, huh?

I think that takes a special personality.

[User] But I did fly for another 10 years for the Navy as an inactive reserve, they called us weekend warriors. I went over to nearby Norfolk [Virginia] on weekends and would fly SNJs [North American Aviation T-6 Texan].

[Assistant] That was an easy commute. Didn’t have to go far.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really.

[Assistant]
That was a quick answer.

No regrets, huh?

I think that takes a special personality.

[User] But I did fly for another 10 years for the Navy as an inactive reserve, they called us weekend warriors. I went over to nearby Norfolk [Virginia] on weekends and would fly SNJs [North American Aviation T-6 Texan].

[Assistant] That was an easy commute. Didn’t have to go far.

[User] Then after retiring from NASA I worked another 15 years doing similar work for a company called Dynamic Engineering and did quite a bit of consulting for the FAA and others.

[Assistant] You got to see it from a different angle. Did you do a lot of interaction with the FAA when you were here at NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I did fly for another 10 years for the Navy as an inactive reserve, they called us weekend warriors. I went over to nearby Norfolk [Virginia] on weekends and would fly SNJs [North American Aviation T-6 Texan].

[Assistant] That was an easy commute. Didn’t have to go far.

[User] Then after retiring from NASA I worked another 15 years doing similar work for a company called Dynamic Engineering and did quite a bit of consulting for the FAA and others.

[Assistant] You got to see it from a different angle. Did you do a lot of interaction with the FAA when you were here at NASA?

[User] During the Lockheed investigation of the Electra we were heavily involved with the FAA at that time, yes.

[Assistant] Was that something that they did often like if airplanes crashed? You said with that one it’s because people were killed and there was a problem with the flutter. Did it happen throughout the time you were there that other aircraft that were having problems, they would come in and try to figure that out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then after retiring from NASA I worked another 15 years doing similar work for a company called Dynamic Engineering and did quite a bit of consulting for the FAA and others.

[Assistant] You got to see it from a different angle. Did you do a lot of interaction with the FAA when you were here at NASA?

[User] During the Lockheed investigation of the Electra we were heavily involved with the FAA at that time, yes.

[Assistant] Was that something that they did often like if airplanes crashed? You said with that one it’s because people were killed and there was a problem with the flutter. Did it happen throughout the time you were there that other aircraft that were having problems, they would come in and try to figure that out?

[User] In my particular area, I’ve attended crash investigations for the National Transportation Safety Board. Also, I understand that NASA Langley was heavily involved in finding the cause of and cure for a structural failure in the vertical tail on a commercial transport aircraft.

[Assistant]
That’s an interesting benefit.

All the years that you worked with the wind tunnel and technology has changed as our lives keep going on, there may even be some that say you don’t need wind tunnels because we have computer models. What’s the value of knowing that the wind tunnel does what it does?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] During the Lockheed investigation of the Electra we were heavily involved with the FAA at that time, yes.

[Assistant] Was that something that they did often like if airplanes crashed? You said with that one it’s because people were killed and there was a problem with the flutter. Did it happen throughout the time you were there that other aircraft that were having problems, they would come in and try to figure that out?

[User] In my particular area, I’ve attended crash investigations for the National Transportation Safety Board. Also, I understand that NASA Langley was heavily involved in finding the cause of and cure for a structural failure in the vertical tail on a commercial transport aircraft.

[Assistant]
That’s an interesting benefit.

All the years that you worked with the wind tunnel and technology has changed as our lives keep going on, there may even be some that say you don’t need wind tunnels because we have computer models. What’s the value of knowing that the wind tunnel does what it does?

[User] Because wind tunnel testing is closer to mother nature. Things that may not be discovered on computers, because you didn’t know the right questions to ask, might be uncovered by testing in a real-life environment. That’s happened many times I think. Some may say wind tunnels are out of style now because we can do everything by analysis. I don’t agree.

[Assistant] You’ve seen many years of changes, plus you use a computer to help do your analysis, but yet the wind tunnel still offers its own unique benefit, doesn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my particular area, I’ve attended crash investigations for the National Transportation Safety Board. Also, I understand that NASA Langley was heavily involved in finding the cause of and cure for a structural failure in the vertical tail on a commercial transport aircraft.

[Assistant]
That’s an interesting benefit.

All the years that you worked with the wind tunnel and technology has changed as our lives keep going on, there may even be some that say you don’t need wind tunnels because we have computer models. What’s the value of knowing that the wind tunnel does what it does?

[User] Because wind tunnel testing is closer to mother nature. Things that may not be discovered on computers, because you didn’t know the right questions to ask, might be uncovered by testing in a real-life environment. That’s happened many times I think. Some may say wind tunnels are out of style now because we can do everything by analysis. I don’t agree.

[Assistant] You’ve seen many years of changes, plus you use a computer to help do your analysis, but yet the wind tunnel still offers its own unique benefit, doesn’t it?

[User] Many of the wind tunnels that were active at Langley have now been destroyed or mothballed. At one time there were as many as 50; now you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand.

[Assistant] We’re glad to see the one that you were with is still running.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because wind tunnel testing is closer to mother nature. Things that may not be discovered on computers, because you didn’t know the right questions to ask, might be uncovered by testing in a real-life environment. That’s happened many times I think. Some may say wind tunnels are out of style now because we can do everything by analysis. I don’t agree.

[Assistant] You’ve seen many years of changes, plus you use a computer to help do your analysis, but yet the wind tunnel still offers its own unique benefit, doesn’t it?

[User] Many of the wind tunnels that were active at Langley have now been destroyed or mothballed. At one time there were as many as 50; now you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand.

[Assistant] We’re glad to see the one that you were with is still running.

[User] Yes, I’m certain the need for having the unique capabilities of TDT will be there for a long while.

[Assistant] That’s good. Are there other areas that you can think of that you wanted to share with us? Some other thoughts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Many of the wind tunnels that were active at Langley have now been destroyed or mothballed. At one time there were as many as 50; now you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand.

[Assistant] We’re glad to see the one that you were with is still running.

[User] Yes, I’m certain the need for having the unique capabilities of TDT will be there for a long while.

[Assistant] That’s good. Are there other areas that you can think of that you wanted to share with us? Some other thoughts?

[User] It’s interesting that one of my earlier projects at FRD involved shaking an airplane (F-86D) in flight. Then, 40 years later, I found myself again in the business of shaking airplanes in flight, this time, as a Designated Engineering Representative of the FAA for flutter and vibration certification. As a part of clearing a new or modified airplane for flutter, its structural vibration modes relating to flutter are measured as the airplane is shaken in flight. For this purpose, I helped develop and patent an in-flight shaker system while employed at Dynamic Engineering Inc. known as the DEI Flutter Exciter.\n\n It is an airfoil with a rotating cylinder that runs span wise behind the airfoil’s trailing edge. The cylinder is slotted on opposite sides so that when it rotates at controlled frequencies the air flow produces a sinusoidal lift force on the airfoil in much the same way an oscillating trailing-edge flap does. The device is in use worldwide in flight flutter testing of commercial and military aircraft. Last count, revenue from its sales exceeded $10 million.

[Assistant]
I probably won’t now get into an airplane without thinking of you.

We’re all a little safer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I might tell a little story here involving the DEI Flutter Exciter system. A company at a nearby airport was under contract with the Navy to tow target using Learjet aircraft with the target containers mounted under the wing. I was contacted by the company to do the analysis and flight tests required by the FAA to show that the target-carriage configurations would be flutter free. For the flight tests, we attached a DEI Flutter Exciter to each wing-tip tank. When the pilot came to inspect the setup we had a short conversation that went somewhat as follows:\n\n Pilot: Pointing to the flutter exciter, “Now tell me, just what this does.”\n\n Answer: “It shakes the wing in order to measure the vibrations at different frequencies and airspeeds.”\n\n Pilot: “Well, has this system been used before?”\n\n Answer: “Yes, it’s been fully tested in wind tunnels, but not yet in flight.”\n\n Pilot: “Oh? Where will you be during the flight test?”\n\n Answer: “I’ll be in the chase plane photographing the test plane.”\n\n Pilot: “The heck you will. You’ll be in the test plane WITH me.”\n\n Plans were changed accordingly and all flights in the program were successfully flown.

[Assistant]
If he was going to shake, he wanted you with him.

You’re used to pilots, so I’m sure nothing surprises you about pilots. I take it it all worked out well.

[User] That’s right, but I guess he had the right to be a little concerned. This was the first time for the system to be used in actual flight tests. It has since been used in research and flight testing of a large variety of military and civil transport aircraft.

[Assistant] A lot of confidence they must have had. How big is the device, the flutter exciter?

[User] How big do you want it? They make all sizes.

[Assistant] What a perfect answer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right, but I guess he had the right to be a little concerned. This was the first time for the system to be used in actual flight tests. It has since been used in research and flight testing of a large variety of military and civil transport aircraft.

[Assistant] A lot of confidence they must have had. How big is the device, the flutter exciter?

[User] How big do you want it? They make all sizes.

[Assistant] What a perfect answer.

[User] For wind tunnel models it’s the size of a business card. For fighter aircraft, like the F-16 or F-18, it’s about the size of this page. For the Lockheed 130J [Super Hercules], to be sure of having enough shaker force, it was designed to be about the size of a small playing-card table, which, in flight, produced much more force than needed.

[Assistant] They learned something, didn’t they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How big do you want it? They make all sizes.

[Assistant] What a perfect answer.

[User] For wind tunnel models it’s the size of a business card. For fighter aircraft, like the F-16 or F-18, it’s about the size of this page. For the Lockheed 130J [Super Hercules], to be sure of having enough shaker force, it was designed to be about the size of a small playing-card table, which, in flight, produced much more force than needed.

[Assistant] They learned something, didn’t they?

[User] I retired from that company in 1996 and since then I just do just about whatever I want, i.e., with the wife’s permission.

[Assistant] Sounds like you’re busy. Thank you for that story. I’m glad you told us that. Anything else you can think of? That was a good one. Any more that you would like to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For wind tunnel models it’s the size of a business card. For fighter aircraft, like the F-16 or F-18, it’s about the size of this page. For the Lockheed 130J [Super Hercules], to be sure of having enough shaker force, it was designed to be about the size of a small playing-card table, which, in flight, produced much more force than needed.

[Assistant] They learned something, didn’t they?

[User] I retired from that company in 1996 and since then I just do just about whatever I want, i.e., with the wife’s permission.

[Assistant] Sounds like you’re busy. Thank you for that story. I’m glad you told us that. Anything else you can think of? That was a good one. Any more that you would like to share?

[User] No, I think that’s it.

[Assistant] It’s a good way to stop?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Many places. My family was living in Seattle when I was born. My father had just come back from the Philippines after World War II, and he was there. We were there for a year while he did a graduate program in business administration. And then we moved when I was about a year to Harvard, where my father continued his education in the economics department.

[Assistant] So you lived in Cambridge?

[User] We lived apparently in Quonset huts on the Harvard Yard.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] This was a lot of World War II vets coming back, back to school.

[Assistant] Did you have siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This was a lot of World War II vets coming back, back to school.

[Assistant] Did you have siblings?

[User] I had a brother who was a year and a half older, Jim, and he's still living and he is a radio astronomer at the University of Virginia.

[Assistant] Oh, interesting.

[User] But we moved four times.

[Assistant] Yes. What did your, your dad was in, in school there at Harvard. And what was your mom doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we moved four times.

[Assistant] Yes. What did your, your dad was in, in school there at Harvard. And what was your mom doing?

[User] She was being a housewife and taking care of the two kids. They were living on the GI Bill. They, I think it was about two years that we were there. And my father finished a master's degree and was ABD and decided that the infighting in academic departments was not his cup of tea.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And especially, I think he was, he thought it was pathetic given that he had been in World War II, where he saw real fighting and was aware that what was going on in academics wasn't for him. So he then got a job with Continental Cab Company and they placed him in Seattle. So we went back to Seattle.

[Assistant] Back to Seattle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was nine, the summer I was nine, which was after fourth grade, my father began a job with Whirlpool Corporation in St. Joseph, Michigan. He was not happy with having to commute into the city every day and wanted a different pace of life. And so we moved to St. Joseph, Michigan, which was very different than White Plains.

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] It was about 99.5 percent white. Anglo-Saxon primarily, I mean, I don't think there was any strong ethnic group. Maybe, maybe Dutch. A lot of southeast, I'm sorry, southwest Michigan is, is Dutch.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which is why we have Holland.

[Assistant] Holland and the tulip, right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was about 99.5 percent white. Anglo-Saxon primarily, I mean, I don't think there was any strong ethnic group. Maybe, maybe Dutch. A lot of southeast, I'm sorry, southwest Michigan is, is Dutch.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which is why we have Holland.

[Assistant] Holland and the tulip, right.

[User] Holland and the tulip. But the, there is a conservative Anglo- Saxon northern European bias. And I found that very difficult even as a, even as a ten year old.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, and you might not have found it difficult had you not lived in White Plains where you were interacting with kids of a slightly different culture.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And I enjoyed them.

[Assistant] Yeah, sure.

[User] I enjoyed that. And so when I got to St. Joe, it was painful.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The first year especially, I was very, very unhappy.

[Assistant] And it was still just you and your older brother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I enjoyed that. And so when I got to St. Joe, it was painful.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The first year especially, I was very, very unhappy.

[Assistant] And it was still just you and your older brother?

[User] Yes. And there weren't really relatives around. We had grandparents that lived in New York State. My father was an only child, so there were no uncles on that side. My mother had one sister who lived in Ohio, so we were very much a nuclear family.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you travel with your parents, the four of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And there weren't really relatives around. We had grandparents that lived in New York State. My father was an only child, so there were no uncles on that side. My mother had one sister who lived in Ohio, so we were very much a nuclear family.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you travel with your parents, the four of you?

[User] Well, there's this schlepping back and forth across the country, which I think was formative because I do have memories of all of those places except Harvard. But so the idea of moving was fundamental to our family, probably in the same way it might have been to a military family. I mean, it just happens. You do it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you go to the new place and you adjust.

[Assistant] That's right. Yeah. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And when I moved to St. Joe, I found out it was not normative, that people had lived there and their parents had lived there and they had no idea or interest in going other places. And I thought that was strange and, and I felt sorry for them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] For not having had these opportunities.

[Assistant] Of course.

[User] I did adjust to St. Joe obviously, and made many good friends and remained in St. Joe through high school.

[Assistant] Through high school. So when you were in high school, did you study a foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did adjust to St. Joe obviously, and made many good friends and remained in St. Joe through high school.

[Assistant] Through high school. So when you were in high school, did you study a foreign language?

[User] French.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And I was middling at it, I would say.

[Assistant] And were you involved in extracurricular activities as a high school kid? What was fun?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was middling at it, I would say.

[Assistant] And were you involved in extracurricular activities as a high school kid? What was fun?

[User] I had a fair artistic talent and so I took art classes when I could and also had special classes on Saturday. My mother arranged for me to go to a Saturday art class that was taught by the art teacher in the high school who actually was the mother of one of my classmates. And she had a group on Saturday morning, so I had that training.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I also, when I was 15, went to Chicago to the School of the Art Institute for six weeks, and that involved my taking a train from St. Joe to Chicago and then a cab and going up to, uh, a place for single women comparable to the Barbizon Hotel. I'm a little surprised in retrospect my parents let me do that, but they did it because of a family friend who was four years older. Their daughter was also doing this, so they knew I had some supervision and I was in a supervised residence.

[Assistant] And when you are on the train and then having to hail a cab to take you up to the residence, were you all by yourself or you with your friend?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a fair artistic talent and so I took art classes when I could and also had special classes on Saturday. My mother arranged for me to go to a Saturday art class that was taught by the art teacher in the high school who actually was the mother of one of my classmates. And she had a group on Saturday morning, so I had that training.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I also, when I was 15, went to Chicago to the School of the Art Institute for six weeks, and that involved my taking a train from St. Joe to Chicago and then a cab and going up to, uh, a place for single women comparable to the Barbizon Hotel. I'm a little surprised in retrospect my parents let me do that, but they did it because of a family friend who was four years older. Their daughter was also doing this, so they knew I had some supervision and I was in a supervised residence.

[Assistant] And when you are on the train and then having to hail a cab to take you up to the residence, were you all by yourself or you with your friend?

[User] I was with my friend.

[Assistant] And she had done it before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was with my friend.

[Assistant] And she had done it before?

[User] Yeah, well, actually, she had not done it before, but I was not alone. The two of us did it together and she was four years older so I had some guidance.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] And then we would take the train back.

[Assistant] What was the distance between the Art Institute and the women's residence?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, actually, she had not done it before, but I was not alone. The two of us did it together and she was four years older so I had some guidance.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] And then we would take the train back.

[Assistant] What was the distance between the Art Institute and the women's residence?

[User] You know, I think it was several miles. The women's residence was in a part of Chicago called Old Town.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I think it was several miles. The women's residence was in a part of Chicago called Old Town.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, sure.

[User] North Avenue. Well, very nice.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I do remember. I do remember taking a subway ride because I would come home on Fridays separately from her. And I remember one time taking the subway from Old Town, and I was going into downtown Chicago, and I had never taken a subway before.

[Assistant] And you were alone.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I do remember. I do remember taking a subway ride because I would come home on Fridays separately from her. And I remember one time taking the subway from Old Town, and I was going into downtown Chicago, and I had never taken a subway before.

[Assistant] And you were alone.

[User] I was alone. And I wasn't that familiar with the place names along the way. And I had never been in a subway, so I had no way of judging how fast we were going or where we were in relation to my goal.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That was a little unnerving. It was terrifying.

[Assistant] I can just imagine, so every time the subway train stopped you were craning your neck to see what's the name of the stop? Is this where I'm supposed to get off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was alone. And I wasn't that familiar with the place names along the way. And I had never been in a subway, so I had no way of judging how fast we were going or where we were in relation to my goal.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That was a little unnerving. It was terrifying.

[Assistant] I can just imagine, so every time the subway train stopped you were craning your neck to see what's the name of the stop? Is this where I'm supposed to get off?

[User] And it's all going very fast because everyone knows what they're doing. I think actually I got off at the wrong stop because it seemed like we were going so fast that I had the feeling that we were farther along than we were. But, you know, I figured out I got off at the wrong stop and figured out how to get back on so I could go to the right stop. And, and so that problem was solved.

[Assistant] That's great. At age 15.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a little unnerving. It was terrifying.

[Assistant] I can just imagine, so every time the subway train stopped you were craning your neck to see what's the name of the stop? Is this where I'm supposed to get off?

[User] And it's all going very fast because everyone knows what they're doing. I think actually I got off at the wrong stop because it seemed like we were going so fast that I had the feeling that we were farther along than we were. But, you know, I figured out I got off at the wrong stop and figured out how to get back on so I could go to the right stop. And, and so that problem was solved.

[Assistant] That's great. At age 15.

[User] I was 15.

[Assistant] You figured out that you can get lost and then found again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was 15.

[Assistant] You figured out that you can get lost and then found again.

[User] Right. Uh. So back to the, this is all part of the art training.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I was used to being gone from home for a period of time and to be on my own pretty much in a.

[Assistant] In a big city.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In a, in a big city, but in a, in a supervised environment.

[Assistant] Yeah, perfect.

[User] Where I had a place to live that was supervised. And then of course, I had the structure of the art classes, which were all day long, plus then just the fun of exploring. I mean, I enjoyed, I enjoyed exploring around Old Town, you know, figuring out where to eat and taking in the neighborhood and. And then in my senior year, I was president of the art club for the, for the high school.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] That was my real primary interest. This was before girls did sports. And I was not musical at all. So outlets that other girls had like band or orchestra were not something that I could accomplish. So I made the best of what I could do with art.

[Assistant] And then you finished high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where I had a place to live that was supervised. And then of course, I had the structure of the art classes, which were all day long, plus then just the fun of exploring. I mean, I enjoyed, I enjoyed exploring around Old Town, you know, figuring out where to eat and taking in the neighborhood and. And then in my senior year, I was president of the art club for the, for the high school.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] That was my real primary interest. This was before girls did sports. And I was not musical at all. So outlets that other girls had like band or orchestra were not something that I could accomplish. So I made the best of what I could do with art.

[Assistant] And then you finished high school?

[User] Finished high school.

[Assistant] Any family vacations? Did you ever travel for fun with your mom and dad?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was my real primary interest. This was before girls did sports. And I was not musical at all. So outlets that other girls had like band or orchestra were not something that I could accomplish. So I made the best of what I could do with art.

[Assistant] And then you finished high school?

[User] Finished high school.

[Assistant] Any family vacations? Did you ever travel for fun with your mom and dad?

[User] My father liked fishing probably more than anything else. And so the family vacations were always organized around a fishing trip. And the one I remember in particular was when we were 13. When I was 13, I'm sorry. The vacation was to drive from St. Joseph, Michigan, out west to Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

[Assistant] Wow. That's a long drive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Finished high school.

[Assistant] Any family vacations? Did you ever travel for fun with your mom and dad?

[User] My father liked fishing probably more than anything else. And so the family vacations were always organized around a fishing trip. And the one I remember in particular was when we were 13. When I was 13, I'm sorry. The vacation was to drive from St. Joseph, Michigan, out west to Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

[Assistant] Wow. That's a long drive.

[User] Long drive. This is in a 1956 station wagon with no air conditioning and no radio. And it's a three day drive. And it's summer. So I remember seeing a lot of countryside out the window and being bored and hot and. I think it was an introduction to how large America was. This huge central section that.

[Assistant] Went on forever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My father liked fishing probably more than anything else. And so the family vacations were always organized around a fishing trip. And the one I remember in particular was when we were 13. When I was 13, I'm sorry. The vacation was to drive from St. Joseph, Michigan, out west to Jackson Hole, Wyoming.

[Assistant] Wow. That's a long drive.

[User] Long drive. This is in a 1956 station wagon with no air conditioning and no radio. And it's a three day drive. And it's summer. So I remember seeing a lot of countryside out the window and being bored and hot and. I think it was an introduction to how large America was. This huge central section that.

[Assistant] Went on forever.

[User] Went on forever. And then the Jackson Hole was gorgeous, and we spent quite a bit of time. And we camped also, begin to camping.

[Assistant] And did you fish, too, alongside your father and your brother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Long drive. This is in a 1956 station wagon with no air conditioning and no radio. And it's a three day drive. And it's summer. So I remember seeing a lot of countryside out the window and being bored and hot and. I think it was an introduction to how large America was. This huge central section that.

[Assistant] Went on forever.

[User] Went on forever. And then the Jackson Hole was gorgeous, and we spent quite a bit of time. And we camped also, begin to camping.

[Assistant] And did you fish, too, alongside your father and your brother?

[User] Well, my brother spent his time with his nose in a science fiction book. He would have no part of this. I had my drawing materials along, some watercolors. So I spent, I spent time doing that. And I don't think I fished. My father's idea of fishing was to go to a trout stream in a remote location as possible and commune with nature. So having a kid along was, uh, did not facilitate his goal.

[Assistant] So he was just as happy that you stayed back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Went on forever. And then the Jackson Hole was gorgeous, and we spent quite a bit of time. And we camped also, begin to camping.

[Assistant] And did you fish, too, alongside your father and your brother?

[User] Well, my brother spent his time with his nose in a science fiction book. He would have no part of this. I had my drawing materials along, some watercolors. So I spent, I spent time doing that. And I don't think I fished. My father's idea of fishing was to go to a trout stream in a remote location as possible and commune with nature. So having a kid along was, uh, did not facilitate his goal.

[Assistant] So he was just as happy that you stayed back?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did your watercolors.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my brother spent his time with his nose in a science fiction book. He would have no part of this. I had my drawing materials along, some watercolors. So I spent, I spent time doing that. And I don't think I fished. My father's idea of fishing was to go to a trout stream in a remote location as possible and commune with nature. So having a kid along was, uh, did not facilitate his goal.

[Assistant] So he was just as happy that you stayed back?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did your watercolors.

[User] That I did my watercolors. It was just fine.

[Assistant] And did he catch fish that you'd bring back to camp and then you and your mom would cook them up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, he was, he was very good. And we ate a lot of trout.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And my mother was the perfect '50s wife, I guess. And she would, he'd clean them. I remember that. I watched him clean fish. And then she'd cook them and we'd have dinner. And after dinner we'd play cards or games, you know, around the, around the Coleman lantern.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that would be repeated the next day. So we had a very nice time.

[Assistant] It sounds idyllic.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my mother was the perfect '50s wife, I guess. And she would, he'd clean them. I remember that. I watched him clean fish. And then she'd cook them and we'd have dinner. And after dinner we'd play cards or games, you know, around the, around the Coleman lantern.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that would be repeated the next day. So we had a very nice time.

[Assistant] It sounds idyllic.

[User] Yeah. So again, the idea of moving, moving, going somewhere, was part of my upbringing. It was normal.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not internationally. You didn't like all pack up and go to Paris?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It wasn't until I was in college. My freshman year of college, and also my sophomore year in the spring, on the spring break, my parents took my brother and I to the Virgin Islands and we stayed on Saint John two years, which was absolutely glorious environment. But the thing that struck me among other parts of those trips were the fact that, A, it was outside of the United States. It was English speaking, but it was a patois English. It wasn't English that was the kind of English I was used to.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] But the airplane landed. These were propeller planes, and it landed in St. Thomas. And then we took a boat over to St. John. And St. Thomas is a duty-free port. And it was full of tourists from all over the world. And it also had, um, a wide range, a wide economic range. I could see that even as an inexperienced young person, that there were people that were living in shanties and there were people who were living in these gorgeous homes on the hillside and everything in between.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And the shops had very expensive watches and jewelry and trying on anything you wanted. And yet people in the street seemed to be living at subsistence or slightly above subsistence level. So these economic contrasts with people side by side were, that made a powerful impact, a powerful impression on me.

[Assistant] And so where did you go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the shops had very expensive watches and jewelry and trying on anything you wanted. And yet people in the street seemed to be living at subsistence or slightly above subsistence level. So these economic contrasts with people side by side were, that made a powerful impact, a powerful impression on me.

[Assistant] And so where did you go to college?

[User] I went to Cornell University.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] That was part of, I think, the heritage that I grew up with. Both parents had gone to Cornell.

[Assistant] Ah. And your brother too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to Cornell University.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] That was part of, I think, the heritage that I grew up with. Both parents had gone to Cornell.

[Assistant] Ah. And your brother too?

[User] And my brother also. And I was competitive. I hate to admit it, but I was competitive. And I remember thinking, I'm going to do this too, because if my brother can do it, I can do it. And so I did.

[Assistant] And what were you studying? What was your major?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I started out as a freshman, we had to declare majors, I declared sociology because I was, I knew I was interested in people in the broad sense of the word. And it turned out that sociology was, to my way of looking at it, statistics. They were dealing with large aggregates. They were not dealing with individuals. It was large demographic and economic and social movements and that did not interest me at all. So then I was in a position of having to rethink what my major would be.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I decided as a default, and this was a very common default in the mid sixties, on English literature. English Department.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And then I had, as a minor, I took studio art classes as a minor.

[Assistant] Did you have any, were you thinking about career at that time? Did you have any idea of what your life's work might be, or were you just still kind of searching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I decided as a default, and this was a very common default in the mid sixties, on English literature. English Department.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And then I had, as a minor, I took studio art classes as a minor.

[Assistant] Did you have any, were you thinking about career at that time? Did you have any idea of what your life's work might be, or were you just still kind of searching?

[User] I had no idea. And, and the expectation in my family, even though it was a highly educated family, was that I would go to college and repeat my mother's footsteps and meet and marry a Cornellian. And be a homemaker.

[Assistant] So it didn't matter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had no idea. And, and the expectation in my family, even though it was a highly educated family, was that I would go to college and repeat my mother's footsteps and meet and marry a Cornellian. And be a homemaker.

[Assistant] So it didn't matter.

[User] It didn't matter. I was there to, to get an education. And I remember them saying this because I said, why? Why are you sending me if you are expecting me to get married at the end of it? And the answer was, well, it will make you a better wife and mother.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Okay. And I remember very clearly one spring, it must have been at the end of the academic year. My brother at that point had a car and he drove us home from Ithaca to St. Joe, it was a 12 hour drive. And we talked.

[Assistant] Just the two of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. And I remember very clearly one spring, it must have been at the end of the academic year. My brother at that point had a car and he drove us home from Ithaca to St. Joe, it was a 12 hour drive. And we talked.

[Assistant] Just the two of you?

[User] Just the two of us. And we'd always gotten along well so it was a comfortable experience. And I remember asking him, because he had just graduated, I remember asking him what he was going to do.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he said, with complete matter-of-factness, I'm going to be an astronomer. And I said, well, when did you decide you're going to be an astronomer? And he said, well, I've known that for years. And I said, well, how did you come to know that? And he said that that was his interest. And people had supported him. And people had asked him growing up what he wanted.

[Assistant] What are you going to be when you grow up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just the two of us. And we'd always gotten along well so it was a comfortable experience. And I remember asking him, because he had just graduated, I remember asking him what he was going to do.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he said, with complete matter-of-factness, I'm going to be an astronomer. And I said, well, when did you decide you're going to be an astronomer? And he said, well, I've known that for years. And I said, well, how did you come to know that? And he said that that was his interest. And people had supported him. And people had asked him growing up what he wanted.

[Assistant] What are you going to be when you grow up?

[User] What do you want to be when you grow up? And a light bulb went off. And I thought, and I said to him, no one has ever asked me that question.

[Assistant] Right, cause you're just a girl.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm just a girl. So that question was never asked. And I thought, how stunning that that's a question.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That's a question. And it's a question that nobody's asked me and probably nobody will. But I'm going to ask myself. It, it made that question a pivotal, uh, it was a pivotal realization for me that, in fact, not only were girls treated differently, which I knew in many ways. Girls had curfews, girls had, were expected to do this kind of activity and not that kind of activity. But that there was this huge divide in terms of a boy would be asked, what do you want to do? And a girl would be told, you can go to college. We expect you to go to college. We even are happy to send you to an Ivy League college. So you can get the best husband possible.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] I was offended.

[Assistant] Of course you were. And you probably understood that you were the intellectual equal of your brother.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's a question. And it's a question that nobody's asked me and probably nobody will. But I'm going to ask myself. It, it made that question a pivotal, uh, it was a pivotal realization for me that, in fact, not only were girls treated differently, which I knew in many ways. Girls had curfews, girls had, were expected to do this kind of activity and not that kind of activity. But that there was this huge divide in terms of a boy would be asked, what do you want to do? And a girl would be told, you can go to college. We expect you to go to college. We even are happy to send you to an Ivy League college. So you can get the best husband possible.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] I was offended.

[Assistant] Of course you were. And you probably understood that you were the intellectual equal of your brother.

[User] Yes, Well, not quite. He's very smart. He's, he's, he's in a category by himself. And I knew that for a long time, but I figured that I was at least good enough. I was good enough that I could do something. I could ask myself the question.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you're in college, you graduate from Cornell. Are you studying languages at Cornell?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was offended.

[Assistant] Of course you were. And you probably understood that you were the intellectual equal of your brother.

[User] Yes, Well, not quite. He's very smart. He's, he's, he's in a category by himself. And I knew that for a long time, but I figured that I was at least good enough. I was good enough that I could do something. I could ask myself the question.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you're in college, you graduate from Cornell. Are you studying languages at Cornell?

[User] We had a requirement for French, a certain number of credits.

[Assistant] And you had your high school French.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Well, not quite. He's very smart. He's, he's, he's in a category by himself. And I knew that for a long time, but I figured that I was at least good enough. I was good enough that I could do something. I could ask myself the question.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you're in college, you graduate from Cornell. Are you studying languages at Cornell?

[User] We had a requirement for French, a certain number of credits.

[Assistant] And you had your high school French.

[User] And I had my high school French.

[Assistant] To build on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had my high school French.

[Assistant] To build on.

[User] So I knew enough about other languages. But I must say I was never fluent and I never spoke it and I, I never was around native speakers.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] So I didn't really understand the function of other languages, that people actually use these to communicate, to communicate with.

[Assistant] You would have had to zoom up to Quebec or something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I knew enough about other languages. But I must say I was never fluent and I never spoke it and I, I never was around native speakers.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] So I didn't really understand the function of other languages, that people actually use these to communicate, to communicate with.

[Assistant] You would have had to zoom up to Quebec or something.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] And what did you do in the summers? Did you, did you have a summer job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, right.

[Assistant] And what did you do in the summers? Did you, did you have a summer job?

[User] Yes. Summers, the summer was important. The summer after my sophomore year, I went to the University of Michigan by myself and took a summer program for six weeks in the School of, I think at that time it was called Art and Architecture. But I took, again, studio art classes, two studio art classes. Lived with some people that were advertising a room in a basement near campus and got a job for a few hours a week working in a Hallmark store near the campus to make some spending money.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And again made new friends and, or new acquaintances. And I think I stayed there most weekends, I didn't come home. I only came home once. Then my.

[Assistant] So working in the Hallmark store, you would have sort of gotten an idea of what the life is like of people who do that every day, all year round, selling, selling things in the card shop.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Summers, the summer was important. The summer after my sophomore year, I went to the University of Michigan by myself and took a summer program for six weeks in the School of, I think at that time it was called Art and Architecture. But I took, again, studio art classes, two studio art classes. Lived with some people that were advertising a room in a basement near campus and got a job for a few hours a week working in a Hallmark store near the campus to make some spending money.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] And again made new friends and, or new acquaintances. And I think I stayed there most weekends, I didn't come home. I only came home once. Then my.

[Assistant] So working in the Hallmark store, you would have sort of gotten an idea of what the life is like of people who do that every day, all year round, selling, selling things in the card shop.

[User] I knew from the first hour that, A, I wasn't good at it because I was bored and I didn't know the stock and I was getting paid minimum wage and I did not like it at all. So that was a strong motivator.

[Assistant] Go back to Cornell.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And again made new friends and, or new acquaintances. And I think I stayed there most weekends, I didn't come home. I only came home once. Then my.

[Assistant] So working in the Hallmark store, you would have sort of gotten an idea of what the life is like of people who do that every day, all year round, selling, selling things in the card shop.

[User] I knew from the first hour that, A, I wasn't good at it because I was bored and I didn't know the stock and I was getting paid minimum wage and I did not like it at all. So that was a strong motivator.

[Assistant] Go back to Cornell.

[User] To go back to Cornell, because I was, I had no skill for that kind of work.

[Assistant] And it was boring.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To go back to Cornell, because I was, I had no skill for that kind of work.

[Assistant] And it was boring.

[User] And it was boring and it didn't pay well.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] The summer after my junior year, I went to Rome and took again a six week summer art program for credit that was offered by Temple University. And that was a very interesting and informative experience for me because, again, I went by myself. I got on a plane in New York, got off in Rome, and didn't speak a word of Italian.

[Assistant] Right. But you heard people speaking Italian to one another all around you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody was chattering away and I was in this bubble of, of incomprehension.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I had, uh, I don't know what I had. Perhaps gumption. I didn't have, I didn't have much knowledge. I had no knowledge. But I thought, you know, I've got to figure this out. I guess that was the bottom line. I'm here. I chose this. I want to do this. I've got some material here. I have an address or two, so I just have to go figure it out. So. And I don't remember how I figured it out, but I ended up going to a pensione that had been recommended by the Temple University program where people could stay, you know, rent a room and stay. The lady that owned the pensione was very nice and she spoke Italian and a little bit of French and I had a little bit of French.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So we communicated in this pastiche of her, her French as a second language, my French as an almost no language, and I would say probably no English. And over time I picked up a little Italian.

[Assistant] Lots of sign language, drawing pictures?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we communicated in this pastiche of her, her French as a second language, my French as an almost no language, and I would say probably no English. And over time I picked up a little Italian.

[Assistant] Lots of sign language, drawing pictures?

[User] Lots of sign language, uh, and not too much drawing pictures. But I realized that, again, people who didn't speak the same language, who had a completely different cultural background, different ages, different everything, in fact, could communicate and, and you really needed to communicate. It wasn't, it wasn't an option. I remember going for several days without eating when I got there because I had no idea how to order off a menu. And I didn't even really understand how the restaurants were set up or where to get food.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And after three days, you get pretty hungry.

[Assistant] Well, no kidding.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lots of sign language, uh, and not too much drawing pictures. But I realized that, again, people who didn't speak the same language, who had a completely different cultural background, different ages, different everything, in fact, could communicate and, and you really needed to communicate. It wasn't, it wasn't an option. I remember going for several days without eating when I got there because I had no idea how to order off a menu. And I didn't even really understand how the restaurants were set up or where to get food.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And after three days, you get pretty hungry.

[Assistant] Well, no kidding.

[User] So that's a, that's a strong motivating motivator. So after.

[Assistant] There was other American students at the school that you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I arrived a little early, so I eventually had a roommate in this pensione. We shared a room. She was in the same program. But the first three days I was pretty much on my, I was on my own.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I kept thinking, well, I'll figure this out. But I kept getting hungrier and hungrier. And finally after the third day, I thought, you know, it doesn't matter that I don't understand a word of Italian and I can't read the menu and I don't even know how to order or anything. I just have to eat.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I went to a restaurant and muddled my way through somehow and had eggplant parmesan.

[Assistant] Oh, very nice.