[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok. Well, we drifted about a bit. But this is a good—

[Assistant] Yeah, it’s a good one. A darn good one.

[User] —I’m retired, and they come by and call and say, “Do you suppose you could think of some way we could change this, disconnect this continuous linkage in some fashion, so that it wouldn’t be as likely to lock up the whole system? You know, we’d operate more freely. And then we need some tools in which to do that.” So, I built a lot of tools that were—I designed the tools, actually, with a sketch from an engineer saying, “I need something that can reach around this far and get a hold of a linkage and be able to maneuver it, you know, by frictional grip.” So, I actually designed (just paper design) some latching separating devices, which they took over to the Johnson Center and ran tests on them. And they adopted that scheme of things. So, then they wound up making all the hatch doors so that they could be safely operated without jamming, without the entire system jamming. So, that’s a case where I wasn’t even working at Johnson Center. I was retired!

[Assistant] That was later on.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, during that time, though, I—you people did the plaque on the Eagle, didn’t you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —I’m retired, and they come by and call and say, “Do you suppose you could think of some way we could change this, disconnect this continuous linkage in some fashion, so that it wouldn’t be as likely to lock up the whole system? You know, we’d operate more freely. And then we need some tools in which to do that.” So, I built a lot of tools that were—I designed the tools, actually, with a sketch from an engineer saying, “I need something that can reach around this far and get a hold of a linkage and be able to maneuver it, you know, by frictional grip.” So, I actually designed (just paper design) some latching separating devices, which they took over to the Johnson Center and ran tests on them. And they adopted that scheme of things. So, then they wound up making all the hatch doors so that they could be safely operated without jamming, without the entire system jamming. So, that’s a case where I wasn’t even working at Johnson Center. I was retired!

[Assistant] That was later on.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Well, during that time, though, I—you people did the plaque on the Eagle, didn’t you?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You made—how did that happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Richard—N—M—

[Assistant] M. Milhouse.

[User] —Richard Milhouse—Richard M. Nixon. But the first time he had it just “Richard Nixon.”

[Assistant] What was your—in this case the mother’s signature correct—the correct one?

[User] Oh, yes! That was—the one the mother—

[Assistant] The one they sent you was the wrong one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Right.

[Assistant] Which he did.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I think he carried it through to the logical conclusion, don’t you?

[User] He did. Yeah.

[Assistant] Those were incredible times. Now once they had made the lunar landing (let me see where we are for time; yeah, we’re getting pretty close to a reload time here, but we still have a little left on this tape I believe).


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I think he carried it through to the logical conclusion, don’t you?

[User] He did. Yeah.

[Assistant] Those were incredible times. Now once they had made the lunar landing (let me see where we are for time; yeah, we’re getting pretty close to a reload time here, but we still have a little left on this tape I believe).

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Once they had made the lunar landing, there were more things that were needed for the Apollo Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He did. Yeah.

[Assistant] Those were incredible times. Now once they had made the lunar landing (let me see where we are for time; yeah, we’re getting pretty close to a reload time here, but we still have a little left on this tape I believe).

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Once they had made the lunar landing, there were more things that were needed for the Apollo Program.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you involved with those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Once they had made the lunar landing, there were more things that were needed for the Apollo Program.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you involved with those?

[User] Yes, we had occasion, in house, to build all the geological tools. Everything that was used to—including the shovels, the hammers, the devices that all went together to become a lunar tool kit. And initially, they hand-carried it as they went along on Apollo 11. But eventually—and another thing happened. The rover was so late in development, it was not going to be available for two or three Moon landings. So, they had to get something to use to do their tour, you know; to go about and gather rocks. So, we built every one of the lunar tool carrier objects in our shops at JSC. And then a little later on, we made up a hand-wheeled dolly that Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] thought he’d like to have; and that was something he could put the hand-carry dolly on in a converted way and walk along like you do [with] a golf cart tote. And we made that.

[Assistant] Did you help him make his golf club out of existing hardware?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you involved with those?

[User] Yes, we had occasion, in house, to build all the geological tools. Everything that was used to—including the shovels, the hammers, the devices that all went together to become a lunar tool kit. And initially, they hand-carried it as they went along on Apollo 11. But eventually—and another thing happened. The rover was so late in development, it was not going to be available for two or three Moon landings. So, they had to get something to use to do their tour, you know; to go about and gather rocks. So, we built every one of the lunar tool carrier objects in our shops at JSC. And then a little later on, we made up a hand-wheeled dolly that Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] thought he’d like to have; and that was something he could put the hand-carry dolly on in a converted way and walk along like you do [with] a golf cart tote. And we made that.

[Assistant] Did you help him make his golf club out of existing hardware?

[User] Yes. I have to explain that, too.

[Assistant] I think so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had occasion, in house, to build all the geological tools. Everything that was used to—including the shovels, the hammers, the devices that all went together to become a lunar tool kit. And initially, they hand-carried it as they went along on Apollo 11. But eventually—and another thing happened. The rover was so late in development, it was not going to be available for two or three Moon landings. So, they had to get something to use to do their tour, you know; to go about and gather rocks. So, we built every one of the lunar tool carrier objects in our shops at JSC. And then a little later on, we made up a hand-wheeled dolly that Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] thought he’d like to have; and that was something he could put the hand-carry dolly on in a converted way and walk along like you do [with] a golf cart tote. And we made that.

[Assistant] Did you help him make his golf club out of existing hardware?

[User] Yes. I have to explain that, too.

[Assistant] I think so.

[User] Always using simple ideas, he came in one day and he approached us about making a—not the whole club but just the club head for something he could use. And he said, “You know, you have—we have all these handles that have shovels on the ends and they have quick disconnects on them and so on. Suppose you could make a club head that would snap right on the same fitting that is the end of one of the shovel handle things,” which made him a complete golf club. So, we built that little device for him, and he took it in his PPK kit (which is pilot’s preference kit; they’re allowed to have so many pounds of their own things). And I don’t know whether he told management about it or not. I never did hear whether he did.

[Assistant] He told me, very specifically, that he had a special arrangement with Jim [NASA Administrator James E.] Webb.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I have to explain that, too.

[Assistant] I think so.

[User] Always using simple ideas, he came in one day and he approached us about making a—not the whole club but just the club head for something he could use. And he said, “You know, you have—we have all these handles that have shovels on the ends and they have quick disconnects on them and so on. Suppose you could make a club head that would snap right on the same fitting that is the end of one of the shovel handle things,” which made him a complete golf club. So, we built that little device for him, and he took it in his PPK kit (which is pilot’s preference kit; they’re allowed to have so many pounds of their own things). And I don’t know whether he told management about it or not. I never did hear whether he did.

[Assistant] He told me, very specifically, that he had a special arrangement with Jim [NASA Administrator James E.] Webb.

[User] Oh, okay.

[Assistant] And the arrangement was very simple: If the flight was going well and there were no problems, he was able to make the golf club use.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, okay.

[Assistant] And the arrangement was very simple: If the flight was going well and there were no problems, he was able to make the golf club use.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Otherwise, no.

[User] Don’t do it.

[Assistant] That’s right. And so obviously the flight went very well and he was able to use it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Otherwise, no.

[User] Don’t do it.

[Assistant] That’s right. And so obviously the flight went very well and he was able to use it.

[User] It went well. He did it.

[Assistant] He did have management permission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don’t do it.

[Assistant] That’s right. And so obviously the flight went very well and he was able to use it.

[User] It went well. He did it.

[Assistant] He did have management permission.

[User] Yeah, but that’s how we pulled it off. In other words, he didn’t have to have anything except that little club headpiece, you know. And it was made to a perfect fit, so it was like a set of snap-on tools that have ratchets and you can plug them in, you know. It was very simple. But that did happen. We built that.

[Assistant] How about the lunar rover? Did you have anything to do with that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It went well. He did it.

[Assistant] He did have management permission.

[User] Yeah, but that’s how we pulled it off. In other words, he didn’t have to have anything except that little club headpiece, you know. And it was made to a perfect fit, so it was like a set of snap-on tools that have ratchets and you can plug them in, you know. It was very simple. But that did happen. We built that.

[Assistant] How about the lunar rover? Did you have anything to do with that?

[User] Not the rover, except we built models of the rover for (I guess) demonstration and determination of design and that sort of thing. But it came in pretty much as an outside developed device as far as I know. But we did not do too much with the rover.

[Assistant] You know, we’ve talked pretty much about a lot of the things that you came up with that I’ve generated for you. Is there something in particular with that Apollo series of ingenuity-made devices of which you’re particularly proud?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but that’s how we pulled it off. In other words, he didn’t have to have anything except that little club headpiece, you know. And it was made to a perfect fit, so it was like a set of snap-on tools that have ratchets and you can plug them in, you know. It was very simple. But that did happen. We built that.

[Assistant] How about the lunar rover? Did you have anything to do with that?

[User] Not the rover, except we built models of the rover for (I guess) demonstration and determination of design and that sort of thing. But it came in pretty much as an outside developed device as far as I know. But we did not do too much with the rover.

[Assistant] You know, we’ve talked pretty much about a lot of the things that you came up with that I’ve generated for you. Is there something in particular with that Apollo series of ingenuity-made devices of which you’re particularly proud?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Go ahead. Tell me about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not the rover, except we built models of the rover for (I guess) demonstration and determination of design and that sort of thing. But it came in pretty much as an outside developed device as far as I know. But we did not do too much with the rover.

[Assistant] You know, we’ve talked pretty much about a lot of the things that you came up with that I’ve generated for you. Is there something in particular with that Apollo series of ingenuity-made devices of which you’re particularly proud?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Go ahead. Tell me about it.

[User] Well, one is (I don’t know which one’s the best; there’s two)—

[Assistant] Well, we’ve got time here. Tell us about both of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Go ahead. Tell me about it.

[User] Well, one is (I don’t know which one’s the best; there’s two)—

[Assistant] Well, we’ve got time here. Tell us about both of them.

[User] Do we have time for both of them?

[Assistant] We’ll make time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It was North American. He called Harrison Storms and said, “I’ve had Mr. Kinzler out here looking around your plant. And he’s written up a rather lengthy report. I’d like to send it to you and see if you’ll agree that maybe some action is needed.” So, he sent the whole thing out! I got the word back that Harrison Storm called all his shops people in—he had everybody involved—and he laid down the law and said, “I want every one of these points straightened out,” you know, “in nothing flat.” So, that did happen. How’d you hear about that?

[Assistant] Oh, [North American President J.] Lee [Leland] Atwood was a very good friend of mine.

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] And this—the story of Harrison Storms, incidentally—

[User] I’m glad you brought it up because—

[Assistant] —who lost his job in the process, as you know, a little later.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh.

[Assistant] And this—the story of Harrison Storms, incidentally—

[User] I’m glad you brought it up because—

[Assistant] —who lost his job in the process, as you know, a little later.

[User] Yeah, yes, I do.

[Assistant] But, no. That was—what you did, of course, was very popular with NASA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m glad you brought it up because—

[Assistant] —who lost his job in the process, as you know, a little later.

[User] Yeah, yes, I do.

[Assistant] But, no. That was—what you did, of course, was very popular with NASA.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Very unpopular with North American.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yes, I do.

[Assistant] But, no. That was—what you did, of course, was very popular with NASA.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Very unpopular with North American.

[User] North American!

[Assistant] But it was something that had to be, wasn’t it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Very unpopular with North American.

[User] North American!

[Assistant] But it was something that had to be, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You really—somebody had to go out there and say, “Hey, you’re not doing this right.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] North American!

[Assistant] But it was something that had to be, wasn’t it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You really—somebody had to go out there and say, “Hey, you’re not doing this right.”

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But was that really what caused the fire, do you think? Because they weren’t doing things right? Or was it just one thing led to another, and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You really—somebody had to go out there and say, “Hey, you’re not doing this right.”

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But was that really what caused the fire, do you think? Because they weren’t doing things right? Or was it just one thing led to another, and—

[User] Well, as you recall, I went out also and I climbed up in their capsule they were—the next one they were building. In that one, you could see wiring laying on the floor right where you’d walk and stumble over it. You know, basic, finished wiring. And our shops at their—somebody else’s direction (there was a project engineer into this), but we made all sorts of sheet metal covers that could be put over clusters of wiring. And the outcome of that was a design change on how wiring would be carried—conducted through the spacecraft. So, we had something to do with that. The Tech Service Division made prototype boxes [of] different sizes and zip lids on them and everything else. They had fun doing that! I’d carry all these boxes out and say, “This is what you guys need here.” You know. In other words, we put it to them in that case. And they did. They changed the—they made covers for everything.

[Assistant] And the facts of life are such that following the Apollo 1 fire, there were no more breakdowns of that kind, even though there was Apollo 13.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] But was that really what caused the fire, do you think? Because they weren’t doing things right? Or was it just one thing led to another, and—

[User] Well, as you recall, I went out also and I climbed up in their capsule they were—the next one they were building. In that one, you could see wiring laying on the floor right where you’d walk and stumble over it. You know, basic, finished wiring. And our shops at their—somebody else’s direction (there was a project engineer into this), but we made all sorts of sheet metal covers that could be put over clusters of wiring. And the outcome of that was a design change on how wiring would be carried—conducted through the spacecraft. So, we had something to do with that. The Tech Service Division made prototype boxes [of] different sizes and zip lids on them and everything else. They had fun doing that! I’d carry all these boxes out and say, “This is what you guys need here.” You know. In other words, we put it to them in that case. And they did. They changed the—they made covers for everything.

[Assistant] And the facts of life are such that following the Apollo 1 fire, there were no more breakdowns of that kind, even though there was Apollo 13.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You and your gang must’ve had a fantastic time with Apollo 13, or did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] You and your gang must’ve had a fantastic time with Apollo 13, or did you?

[User] No. It was kind of quiet for us. It—the crew themselves, you know, did a lot to figure out what they had to do to save themselves. The flight crew. Now the support people on—in the JSC mostly were out of the flight operations end of it, where they have procedures to write and all that. And it turned out that we didn’t have much to do with Apollo 13 fixes. They pulled up some cardboard boxes, you know, to make simulated adapters for transferring oxygen from the lunar module over to the command module. All those innovations happened outside of the purview of our Division. It just happened that they were able to do it without us. They didn’t need too much made for the fix for Apollo 13. Just—

[Assistant] Through the latter end of Apollo—the Apollo Program, then, had you done your job well enough that you could start to look to future things like Skylab or Apollo-Soyuz? Was it the time for that?

[User] Yes, it was. It was time for Skylab and the most exciting time of my life, really.

[Assistant] Well, around NASA they call you “the man who saved Skylab,” and it’s [i.e., Skylab’s] right over your shoulder right now in its fixed configuration.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. It was kind of quiet for us. It—the crew themselves, you know, did a lot to figure out what they had to do to save themselves. The flight crew. Now the support people on—in the JSC mostly were out of the flight operations end of it, where they have procedures to write and all that. And it turned out that we didn’t have much to do with Apollo 13 fixes. They pulled up some cardboard boxes, you know, to make simulated adapters for transferring oxygen from the lunar module over to the command module. All those innovations happened outside of the purview of our Division. It just happened that they were able to do it without us. They didn’t need too much made for the fix for Apollo 13. Just—

[Assistant] Through the latter end of Apollo—the Apollo Program, then, had you done your job well enough that you could start to look to future things like Skylab or Apollo-Soyuz? Was it the time for that?

[User] Yes, it was. It was time for Skylab and the most exciting time of my life, really.

[Assistant] Well, around NASA they call you “the man who saved Skylab,” and it’s [i.e., Skylab’s] right over your shoulder right now in its fixed configuration.

[User] Oh, for goodness sakes.

[Assistant] So, let’s talk Skylab.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was. It was time for Skylab and the most exciting time of my life, really.

[Assistant] Well, around NASA they call you “the man who saved Skylab,” and it’s [i.e., Skylab’s] right over your shoulder right now in its fixed configuration.

[User] Oh, for goodness sakes.

[Assistant] So, let’s talk Skylab.

[User] All right.

[Assistant] Let’s move into that arena.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Where were you when he actually made the deployment?

[User] I was in—

[Assistant] What were your emotions?

[User] —okay. A very good question. And I’ll leave these out until you’ve asked them. I was asked to go over and stand by at Mission Control during the deployment phase. And sure enough, I was there; and they started the deployment in daylight, and as the spacecraft was moving towards darkness they had not completed the deployment. So, the question came up, “What will happen to your fabric if it’s in the night phase and it gets stiff and cold?” You know, there’s –200°F versus +200°F in a day and night cycle. So, they asked my opinion and I said, “Why don’t we stop right where we are?” They had it partway out. And they’d just stop and wait.\n\n So, sure enough, they waited until they moved around to the daylight cycle (I think it was about another half-hour or so, as I recall), and they continued deployment. And when they did deploy, it came out very nicely with one exception: it had a little kind of a twist—a little kink in one corner that didn’t affect the coverage. It was big enough to cover. But I was there, in the Mission Control, at the deployment phase, with Pete up there busily doing it.

[Assistant] You were there perspiring freely, I would imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in—

[Assistant] What were your emotions?

[User] —okay. A very good question. And I’ll leave these out until you’ve asked them. I was asked to go over and stand by at Mission Control during the deployment phase. And sure enough, I was there; and they started the deployment in daylight, and as the spacecraft was moving towards darkness they had not completed the deployment. So, the question came up, “What will happen to your fabric if it’s in the night phase and it gets stiff and cold?” You know, there’s –200°F versus +200°F in a day and night cycle. So, they asked my opinion and I said, “Why don’t we stop right where we are?” They had it partway out. And they’d just stop and wait.\n\n So, sure enough, they waited until they moved around to the daylight cycle (I think it was about another half-hour or so, as I recall), and they continued deployment. And when they did deploy, it came out very nicely with one exception: it had a little kind of a twist—a little kink in one corner that didn’t affect the coverage. It was big enough to cover. But I was there, in the Mission Control, at the deployment phase, with Pete up there busily doing it.

[Assistant] You were there perspiring freely, I would imagine.

[User] Yes! Yes.

[Assistant] Well, you know, that was one of the real highlights of your career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —okay. A very good question. And I’ll leave these out until you’ve asked them. I was asked to go over and stand by at Mission Control during the deployment phase. And sure enough, I was there; and they started the deployment in daylight, and as the spacecraft was moving towards darkness they had not completed the deployment. So, the question came up, “What will happen to your fabric if it’s in the night phase and it gets stiff and cold?” You know, there’s –200°F versus +200°F in a day and night cycle. So, they asked my opinion and I said, “Why don’t we stop right where we are?” They had it partway out. And they’d just stop and wait.\n\n So, sure enough, they waited until they moved around to the daylight cycle (I think it was about another half-hour or so, as I recall), and they continued deployment. And when they did deploy, it came out very nicely with one exception: it had a little kind of a twist—a little kink in one corner that didn’t affect the coverage. It was big enough to cover. But I was there, in the Mission Control, at the deployment phase, with Pete up there busily doing it.

[Assistant] You were there perspiring freely, I would imagine.

[User] Yes! Yes.

[Assistant] Well, you know, that was one of the real highlights of your career.

[User] Yes, it was.

[Assistant] What happened after that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Still am.

[Assistant] Retired but following a path.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] As are all of us I think.

[User] Oh,yes!

[Assistant] Well, you know, in checking out your bio I found a lot of references to your work in finding and training people to go to work in the space program. Can you tell us about the recruiting and the training phases in your career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say: First, read as much as you can about what NASA is and what they do. The libraries have endless information. NASA has lots of free information. I know the teachers take NASA information home to their classes. So, the first thing would be to become informed in what NASA’s done or [is] doing presently. Then the other thing is to consider going to night school, if you’re already working somewhere at a grocery or something. Go to night school on your own, and a junior college is very helpful. They have courses where you can learn. The target should be to become a qualified technician. Not necessarily move all the way into engineering. That’s desirable, and a lot of technicians later—some of mine, by the way, have gone on with additional college time and gotten their engineering degrees. But what we need in the country, we need badly highly skilled technicians. And you see that in the automobile business or just about everywhere. Air conditioning. So, my suggestion to young people is: become familiar with what NASA’s doing, and then ask them. They’ll tell you what courses to follow. And if you just do a little bit, show a little bit of energy of your own, commit yourself, you’ll be fine. That’s about the best way I can put it.

[Assistant] I promised you the opportunity to come back to that thing that you couldn’t quite remember when we were talking about—

[User] Okay. I’m just—

[Assistant] —achievements that you were particularly proud of.

[User] Yeah. Now, I talked about the SLA cutter.

[Assistant] Yes, you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. I’m just—

[Assistant] —achievements that you were particularly proud of.

[User] Yeah. Now, I talked about the SLA cutter.

[Assistant] Yes, you did.

[User] And the Shuttle. What else did we do with Shuttle? It’s strange how it would escape me, because it’s a major one.

[Assistant] Now this was Apollo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the Shuttle. What else did we do with Shuttle? It’s strange how it would escape me, because it’s a major one.

[Assistant] Now this was Apollo.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And this—

[User] It’s terrible. It has to drift for a while. Maybe it’ll come back in.

[Assistant] The senior moments.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And this—

[User] It’s terrible. It has to drift for a while. Maybe it’ll come back in.

[Assistant] The senior moments.

[User] Yeah. That’s what it is. I’m glad you appreciate that.

[Assistant] I do, indeed. Well, I’ll allow you to slide into it in this case—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s terrible. It has to drift for a while. Maybe it’ll come back in.

[Assistant] The senior moments.

[User] Yeah. That’s what it is. I’m glad you appreciate that.

[Assistant] I do, indeed. Well, I’ll allow you to slide into it in this case—

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] —by saying: where (as you look back over your career)—where do you see the real highlights within that career as the nation slowly but surely moved into space? You saw it all, Jack.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. That’s what it is. I’m glad you appreciate that.

[Assistant] I do, indeed. Well, I’ll allow you to slide into it in this case—

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] —by saying: where (as you look back over your career)—where do you see the real highlights within that career as the nation slowly but surely moved into space? You saw it all, Jack.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what stands out in your memory, if any single or combination of things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] —by saying: where (as you look back over your career)—where do you see the real highlights within that career as the nation slowly but surely moved into space? You saw it all, Jack.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what stands out in your memory, if any single or combination of things?

[User] Well, the first: Alan Shepard’s flight was pretty darn important. We took our first man and shot him up on a rocket! And I stood outside the launch pad. In those days, we were allowed to actually go out of the blockhouse and stand within 200 yards of the Redstone on which Al Shepard was sitting and watch him take off. So, that’s pretty primitive, but that’s—I have memories of that. I’ll never forget that. But that’s just the first thing.\n\n As time went on, when we came into Apollo, I guess my fondest memory is that I had the opportunity with the symbolic committee to make recommendations for both a plaque and a flag. And then I got action items to personally, you know—to do those. I’ll never forget those meetings, because I was sitting in an office with the top dignitaries of NASA who said, “Can you tell us what we ought to do?” And I did! It was kind of brash in a way! But they bought it, you know, 100%. They didn’t add anything else. Nothing else. So, that was a highlight. After that, throughout Apollo, I did talk about how we did the SLA cutter. Oh, I mentioned about repairing the hatch door on the Mercury (that’s one). There’s a big one, but it’s sleeping behind me somewhere.

[Assistant] It’s still—you’ll remember it tomorrow—I'm sure, Jack.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what stands out in your memory, if any single or combination of things?

[User] Well, the first: Alan Shepard’s flight was pretty darn important. We took our first man and shot him up on a rocket! And I stood outside the launch pad. In those days, we were allowed to actually go out of the blockhouse and stand within 200 yards of the Redstone on which Al Shepard was sitting and watch him take off. So, that’s pretty primitive, but that’s—I have memories of that. I’ll never forget that. But that’s just the first thing.\n\n As time went on, when we came into Apollo, I guess my fondest memory is that I had the opportunity with the symbolic committee to make recommendations for both a plaque and a flag. And then I got action items to personally, you know—to do those. I’ll never forget those meetings, because I was sitting in an office with the top dignitaries of NASA who said, “Can you tell us what we ought to do?” And I did! It was kind of brash in a way! But they bought it, you know, 100%. They didn’t add anything else. Nothing else. So, that was a highlight. After that, throughout Apollo, I did talk about how we did the SLA cutter. Oh, I mentioned about repairing the hatch door on the Mercury (that’s one). There’s a big one, but it’s sleeping behind me somewhere.

[Assistant] It’s still—you’ll remember it tomorrow—I'm sure, Jack.

[User] Yeah. Good heavens! How could I forget it?

[Assistant] Well, a couple of final questions then, if I may.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the first: Alan Shepard’s flight was pretty darn important. We took our first man and shot him up on a rocket! And I stood outside the launch pad. In those days, we were allowed to actually go out of the blockhouse and stand within 200 yards of the Redstone on which Al Shepard was sitting and watch him take off. So, that’s pretty primitive, but that’s—I have memories of that. I’ll never forget that. But that’s just the first thing.\n\n As time went on, when we came into Apollo, I guess my fondest memory is that I had the opportunity with the symbolic committee to make recommendations for both a plaque and a flag. And then I got action items to personally, you know—to do those. I’ll never forget those meetings, because I was sitting in an office with the top dignitaries of NASA who said, “Can you tell us what we ought to do?” And I did! It was kind of brash in a way! But they bought it, you know, 100%. They didn’t add anything else. Nothing else. So, that was a highlight. After that, throughout Apollo, I did talk about how we did the SLA cutter. Oh, I mentioned about repairing the hatch door on the Mercury (that’s one). There’s a big one, but it’s sleeping behind me somewhere.

[Assistant] It’s still—you’ll remember it tomorrow—I'm sure, Jack.

[User] Yeah. Good heavens! How could I forget it?

[Assistant] Well, a couple of final questions then, if I may.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] If it does come to your mind, you just feel free to pop it right up anytime.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Good heavens! How could I forget it?

[Assistant] Well, a couple of final questions then, if I may.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] If it does come to your mind, you just feel free to pop it right up anytime.

[User] Okay. Okay.

[Assistant] First of all, you stayed, obviously, tremendously interested in the space program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] If it does come to your mind, you just feel free to pop it right up anytime.

[User] Okay. Okay.

[Assistant] First of all, you stayed, obviously, tremendously interested in the space program.

[User] Yes. I still follow it.

[Assistant] What do you think of the way the Station and the world are going in space? Do you think they’re moving in a good direction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Okay.

[Assistant] First of all, you stayed, obviously, tremendously interested in the space program.

[User] Yes. I still follow it.

[Assistant] What do you think of the way the Station and the world are going in space? Do you think they’re moving in a good direction?

[User] I think so. But I’m disappointed we haven’t planned to go back to the Moon. There’s no reason why we didn’t add a return to the Moon program and then use some development of living on the Moon. In other words, using, you know—building buildings that would support people and maybe excavating, trying to find water sources, and different things. So, I think we kind of gave up too quickly on the Moon, personally. The other thing I feel is that: I have no doubt—I am positive—we’re going to go to Mars. And I’m so thrilled that today I read about a way to do it in—by—in 17 years’ time. I may live that long! I don’t know. But—

[Assistant] You’ll never know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I still follow it.

[Assistant] What do you think of the way the Station and the world are going in space? Do you think they’re moving in a good direction?

[User] I think so. But I’m disappointed we haven’t planned to go back to the Moon. There’s no reason why we didn’t add a return to the Moon program and then use some development of living on the Moon. In other words, using, you know—building buildings that would support people and maybe excavating, trying to find water sources, and different things. So, I think we kind of gave up too quickly on the Moon, personally. The other thing I feel is that: I have no doubt—I am positive—we’re going to go to Mars. And I’m so thrilled that today I read about a way to do it in—by—in 17 years’ time. I may live that long! I don’t know. But—

[Assistant] You’ll never know.

[User] So, in other words, we haven’t quit looking out into space and trying to understand space. And the more we do that, the more our religion and everything else fits in. I mean, we have to believe in the Creator and the heavens being omnipotent. And there’s just something bigger than mankind alone, so I’m very supportive of way-out thinking when it comes to “Will we find civilization elsewhere?” and things of that kind. I can’t guarantee any of it. But I can sure believe in it.

[Assistant] You know, Jack Kinzler, you’ve been kind enough to let me guide you with my questions for the last couple of hours. I’d like to give you the opportunity now to say anything that you’d like. Anything that I didn’t think to ask—anything that you feel about all of the things we’ve been talking about here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] X-38? I’m impressed that something has happened! Believe me, years have gone by, 20 years have gone by, Tech Service’s shops haven’t built anything significant like an original device like the X-38—until now. They are doing it—I guess they’ve got enough trained people that they can do something like that once again. But they’re all, most of them are contract people. So, it’s a—it’s kind of a contrast. I’m talking about it, against it, and yet I’m saying, “Hey, they’re finally making it work!” But it took them a long time!

[Assistant] You’ve given us a lot of lessons from the past.

[User] Oh dear.

[Assistant] And I guess that’s really what you’re preaching right now.

[User] I am. I’m stating that the original days of the Space Task Group were unbelievable in that we gave the opportunity to everyone in the Task Group to just go ahead and take charge and do what you need to do. And we’ll back you! We’ll just let you go. And I went out and found buildings to rent. I ordered machine tools in the millions of dollars. I never talked about Gilruth about what I was doing. I just had the go-ahead.\n\n Now he certainly monitored and knew I was doing the proper things. But I was not alone. People like (well, I don’t know who to describe next), but I think, well, about Caldwell, you know. He was a fellow with a lot of capability, and he did a tremendous amount to help develop the design of the Mercury capsule. And yet he’s just one of us guys, you know, that did it. And I can’t think of that other—

[Assistant] And you still can’t think of that one major thing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh dear.

[Assistant] And I guess that’s really what you’re preaching right now.

[User] I am. I’m stating that the original days of the Space Task Group were unbelievable in that we gave the opportunity to everyone in the Task Group to just go ahead and take charge and do what you need to do. And we’ll back you! We’ll just let you go. And I went out and found buildings to rent. I ordered machine tools in the millions of dollars. I never talked about Gilruth about what I was doing. I just had the go-ahead.\n\n Now he certainly monitored and knew I was doing the proper things. But I was not alone. People like (well, I don’t know who to describe next), but I think, well, about Caldwell, you know. He was a fellow with a lot of capability, and he did a tremendous amount to help develop the design of the Mercury capsule. And yet he’s just one of us guys, you know, that did it. And I can’t think of that other—

[Assistant] And you still can’t think of that one major thing.

[User] No. The Apollo. The Apollo thing.

[Assistant] Well, actually, I think we’ve pretty well covered all the bases. If you’re happy with where we’ve gone, where—what you’ve covered, I am, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We prepare for hurricanes every year, so we have a hurricane plan across the Center, and we generally have an exercise, the senior staff, about responding to a hurricane. Then more of our emergency ops folks do a more extensive exercise every year. We had already done that. We do that so that it’s complete by the time hurricane season starts. Really the planning is more or less done ahead of time in terms of what people need to do.\n\n Any time a storm comes up, you have to look at what are the particulars of that storm. For example, in this one, it wasn’t anticipated that we were going to get high winds, and we did not. Because of that, we weren’t as concerned about things like losing power or about needing to make sure that people were not on site.\n\n For example, we did not activate our backup MCC [Mission Control Center]. We continued to operate our MCC here, realizing that probably the biggest issue was going to be the ability of people to get on and off site, which was exactly the biggest issue. When people came on site, especially Saturday, they came with the idea of, “I may not be able to leave.” They brought changes of clothing, and they brought something to sleep [in], and that turned out to be really good, because we did need to use that.\n\n Certainly the flooding was more extensive than people thought a day or two ahead of time. Some of our folks that work in Mission Control were planning to use astronaut crew quarters to sleep, then just go back over to the other building, [Building 30]. But you couldn’t really get between those buildings at the height of the storm, so people just camped out in MCC, never really left the building at all, and were using air mattresses in one of the other Mission Control rooms. But we never had any issue in terms of power or systems working.

[Assistant] Were you here in Houston as preparations were ongoing?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You obviously were not with the ride-out team.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You were at your home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You obviously were not with the ride-out team.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You were at your home.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How often were you in touch with the team? What were they sharing with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You were at your home.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How often were you in touch with the team? What were they sharing with you?

[User] As a senior staff, we have two phone calls a day. We can do up to four. We plan 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m., and if needed 10:00 p.m. and 4:00 a.m., which we really didn’t need to do. We did end up shifting the time a little bit. After about four [or] five days we ended up going to once a day at 8:00 in the morning, and that’s because people wanted, at that point, to start helping people recover. They were going to be going out to people’s houses, and 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. wasn’t a good time to call, because they were already away from their homes.\n\n When nobody was going anywhere, that was good, and then of course there were e-mails in between if there were things that came up, and Joel [B.] Walker was posting on JSC SOS [JSC Emergency Management website], so senior staff could see it, and of course anybody else could see that. I signed up for the texts as well, so any time there’s a message that goes out I could see that. There were some that did go out in the middle of the night, “We’re closing Gate 1 because we’ve got to bring the guards inside,” and things like that.

[Assistant] What were some of the big issues that you talked about during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I imagine you were communicating quite a bit with the Acting Administrator [Robert M. Lightfoot] as well about what was going on.

[User] Yes. After we’d do at least one of our daily phone calls, I would usually send him a note, just giving him a summary of what was going on on site so he’d be up to speed.

[Assistant] Were you also talking about what was happening with employees? At that point did you have a sense of what might be happening?

[User] Initially we were trying to get accountability of all of our employees, and that was one of our highest priorities. When we got to that point certainly let him know that, so that he at least knew the situation. It was a little hard to get actual numbers of people whose homes had flooded, but we knew there were lots of cases of that, so [I] just tried to let him know, “Yes, we have a number of employees, contractor and civil servant, whose homes are flooded and who were rescued by boat,” and that we were trying to follow up on that. But at least let him know that we had at least accounted for all of our employees.

[Assistant] How did you account for them? I think after Ike there was a big push [for a new emergency management system].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. After we’d do at least one of our daily phone calls, I would usually send him a note, just giving him a summary of what was going on on site so he’d be up to speed.

[Assistant] Were you also talking about what was happening with employees? At that point did you have a sense of what might be happening?

[User] Initially we were trying to get accountability of all of our employees, and that was one of our highest priorities. When we got to that point certainly let him know that, so that he at least knew the situation. It was a little hard to get actual numbers of people whose homes had flooded, but we knew there were lots of cases of that, so [I] just tried to let him know, “Yes, we have a number of employees, contractor and civil servant, whose homes are flooded and who were rescued by boat,” and that we were trying to follow up on that. But at least let him know that we had at least accounted for all of our employees.

[Assistant] How did you account for them? I think after Ike there was a big push [for a new emergency management system].

[User] Yes. Every organization has their—it’s either an e-mail tree or a phone tree that ends up reaching out to all the civil servants.

[Assistant] When was the first time you had a chance to finally come back on site? What are your memories of what you saw at the different locations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] Can you talk about the amount of damage that JSC sustained and really what the cost will be and how that will impact the budget?

[User] As I said, lots of roof leaks, and therefore damage inside. Whether it was an office or some other type of room where the roof was leaking, quite a bit of it was associated with that.\n\n We’ve let [NASA] Headquarters know what we think the right amount of money is to recover from that. It includes both what we spend on repairs as well as a couple larger buildings that we think actually need new roofs, so that if you would have another rain event you would feel a lot better that you would not have these leaks. You have to separate those things. We provide estimates of that to Headquarters, and then they work it through the legislative process. There’s nothing yet that’s been allocated to NASA or as far as I know actually any damage to any federal facility. All of the moneys that Congress has designated so far have been directly to FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency]. We hope in a future allocation that there will be some for repairing federal facilities.\n\n In the meantime, of course, we’ve made the repairs that we need to. They get it back to a safe configuration. What they don’t do is necessarily protect you for the next time you have a big rain event.

[Assistant] This money then comes out of the M&O [Maintenance and Operations] budget?

[User] Yes, the M&O.

[Assistant] How will you balance that with the Center’s needs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I said, lots of roof leaks, and therefore damage inside. Whether it was an office or some other type of room where the roof was leaking, quite a bit of it was associated with that.\n\n We’ve let [NASA] Headquarters know what we think the right amount of money is to recover from that. It includes both what we spend on repairs as well as a couple larger buildings that we think actually need new roofs, so that if you would have another rain event you would feel a lot better that you would not have these leaks. You have to separate those things. We provide estimates of that to Headquarters, and then they work it through the legislative process. There’s nothing yet that’s been allocated to NASA or as far as I know actually any damage to any federal facility. All of the moneys that Congress has designated so far have been directly to FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency]. We hope in a future allocation that there will be some for repairing federal facilities.\n\n In the meantime, of course, we’ve made the repairs that we need to. They get it back to a safe configuration. What they don’t do is necessarily protect you for the next time you have a big rain event.

[Assistant] This money then comes out of the M&O [Maintenance and Operations] budget?

[User] Yes, the M&O.

[Assistant] How will you balance that with the Center’s needs?

[User] Other work that was going to go on, other maintenance work or other preventive maintenance, that falls by the wayside, because obviously you’ve put a premium on doing this work.

[Assistant] I was at a meeting the other day, and they mentioned some of the demos they planned to do they weren’t sure if there would be funding available. I presume that’s where the money came from.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the M&O.

[Assistant] How will you balance that with the Center’s needs?

[User] Other work that was going to go on, other maintenance work or other preventive maintenance, that falls by the wayside, because obviously you’ve put a premium on doing this work.

[Assistant] I was at a meeting the other day, and they mentioned some of the demos they planned to do they weren’t sure if there would be funding available. I presume that’s where the money came from.

[User] I don’t know if it was specifically that account or not. But yes, at a larger sense it’s all the same account.

[Assistant] You and some of the astronaut corps went up to NRG Stadium.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other work that was going to go on, other maintenance work or other preventive maintenance, that falls by the wayside, because obviously you’ve put a premium on doing this work.

[Assistant] I was at a meeting the other day, and they mentioned some of the demos they planned to do they weren’t sure if there would be funding available. I presume that’s where the money came from.

[User] I don’t know if it was specifically that account or not. But yes, at a larger sense it’s all the same account.

[Assistant] You and some of the astronaut corps went up to NRG Stadium.

[User] NRG Center, yes.

[Assistant] Would you talk about that and why you thought that was important?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know if it was specifically that account or not. But yes, at a larger sense it’s all the same account.

[Assistant] You and some of the astronaut corps went up to NRG Stadium.

[User] NRG Center, yes.

[Assistant] Would you talk about that and why you thought that was important?

[User] Sure. As you were watching the news, there were obviously lots of different efforts to address the morale of people who had been flooded out and were now at some sort of temporary shelter. Of course there was a big one at George R. Brown [Convention Center]. There were so many people going there that they ended up opening this other one at NRG Center that nonprofit BakerRipley was putting in place. I had seen in the news—various sports people had gone there. NASA is part of the community, and astronauts are a visible part of NASA, so it just seemed like it would be a good thing to go see if we could go talk to some of the folks up there, both the people staying at the shelter as well as the volunteers who were there working, or the first responders who were there working.\n\n I think we got five of us or so to go up. Was that on Sunday? Either Sunday or Monday. Can’t remember.

[Assistant] Trying to remember from the Roundup.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] NRG Center, yes.

[Assistant] Would you talk about that and why you thought that was important?

[User] Sure. As you were watching the news, there were obviously lots of different efforts to address the morale of people who had been flooded out and were now at some sort of temporary shelter. Of course there was a big one at George R. Brown [Convention Center]. There were so many people going there that they ended up opening this other one at NRG Center that nonprofit BakerRipley was putting in place. I had seen in the news—various sports people had gone there. NASA is part of the community, and astronauts are a visible part of NASA, so it just seemed like it would be a good thing to go see if we could go talk to some of the folks up there, both the people staying at the shelter as well as the volunteers who were there working, or the first responders who were there working.\n\n I think we got five of us or so to go up. Was that on Sunday? Either Sunday or Monday. Can’t remember.

[Assistant] Trying to remember from the Roundup.

[User] Can’t remember which day. It might have been Monday, which was Labor Day. It was either Sunday or Monday. Five of us went up and spent a little bit of time down there. Talked to some of the people who were working there, talked with some of the people who were sheltering there. They had an area for kids who were sheltering there, and so we went and talked to them for a little bit.

[Assistant] They probably really enjoyed that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. As you were watching the news, there were obviously lots of different efforts to address the morale of people who had been flooded out and were now at some sort of temporary shelter. Of course there was a big one at George R. Brown [Convention Center]. There were so many people going there that they ended up opening this other one at NRG Center that nonprofit BakerRipley was putting in place. I had seen in the news—various sports people had gone there. NASA is part of the community, and astronauts are a visible part of NASA, so it just seemed like it would be a good thing to go see if we could go talk to some of the folks up there, both the people staying at the shelter as well as the volunteers who were there working, or the first responders who were there working.\n\n I think we got five of us or so to go up. Was that on Sunday? Either Sunday or Monday. Can’t remember.

[Assistant] Trying to remember from the Roundup.

[User] Can’t remember which day. It might have been Monday, which was Labor Day. It was either Sunday or Monday. Five of us went up and spent a little bit of time down there. Talked to some of the people who were working there, talked with some of the people who were sheltering there. They had an area for kids who were sheltering there, and so we went and talked to them for a little bit.

[Assistant] They probably really enjoyed that.

[User] I hope so, yes.

[Assistant] I would think so. One of the other things, you mentioned first responders. I had seen in the Roundup that there were some law enforcement officers that were provided a tour here at JSC.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Can’t remember which day. It might have been Monday, which was Labor Day. It was either Sunday or Monday. Five of us went up and spent a little bit of time down there. Talked to some of the people who were working there, talked with some of the people who were sheltering there. They had an area for kids who were sheltering there, and so we went and talked to them for a little bit.

[Assistant] They probably really enjoyed that.

[User] I hope so, yes.

[Assistant] I would think so. One of the other things, you mentioned first responders. I had seen in the Roundup that there were some law enforcement officers that were provided a tour here at JSC.

[User] Yes. They were from seven different police departments and sheriff departments from other parts of Texas in addition to here in Houston.

[Assistant] What was the idea behind that? How did that idea coalesce?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope so, yes.

[Assistant] I would think so. One of the other things, you mentioned first responders. I had seen in the Roundup that there were some law enforcement officers that were provided a tour here at JSC.

[User] Yes. They were from seven different police departments and sheriff departments from other parts of Texas in addition to here in Houston.

[Assistant] What was the idea behind that? How did that idea coalesce?

[User] I actually don’t know who was the one that invited them. I think some of our folks who work in our emergency ops probably reached out to them and said, “Hey, since they came here to Houston and helped out Houston, we’d like to offer them a tour.” Of course we’re always happy to do that.

[Assistant] There was an event on October 24th. It was the hero of Harvey event, and you gave out ice cream and cookies. I saw a lot of senior staff outside. Would you talk about the idea behind that event?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They were from seven different police departments and sheriff departments from other parts of Texas in addition to here in Houston.

[Assistant] What was the idea behind that? How did that idea coalesce?

[User] I actually don’t know who was the one that invited them. I think some of our folks who work in our emergency ops probably reached out to them and said, “Hey, since they came here to Houston and helped out Houston, we’d like to offer them a tour.” Of course we’re always happy to do that.

[Assistant] There was an event on October 24th. It was the hero of Harvey event, and you gave out ice cream and cookies. I saw a lot of senior staff outside. Would you talk about the idea behind that event?

[User] Yes. We were just trying to figure out how can we help thank folks here at JSC who helped other people in our community here during Harvey and of course in the aftermath of Harvey. So the ice cream was for everybody in the community, but we did try to reach out and make sure that we thanked people who had done certain efforts as well. We had little pins [for the] heroes of Harvey, the Power of One pins. It was just a way of thanking and recognizing folks for pulling together and helping out fellow members of the JSC community.

[Assistant] Are there any lessons learned from this event that you would put forward for your future Center directors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I actually don’t know who was the one that invited them. I think some of our folks who work in our emergency ops probably reached out to them and said, “Hey, since they came here to Houston and helped out Houston, we’d like to offer them a tour.” Of course we’re always happy to do that.

[Assistant] There was an event on October 24th. It was the hero of Harvey event, and you gave out ice cream and cookies. I saw a lot of senior staff outside. Would you talk about the idea behind that event?

[User] Yes. We were just trying to figure out how can we help thank folks here at JSC who helped other people in our community here during Harvey and of course in the aftermath of Harvey. So the ice cream was for everybody in the community, but we did try to reach out and make sure that we thanked people who had done certain efforts as well. We had little pins [for the] heroes of Harvey, the Power of One pins. It was just a way of thanking and recognizing folks for pulling together and helping out fellow members of the JSC community.

[Assistant] Are there any lessons learned from this event that you would put forward for your future Center directors?

[User] Oh gosh, there’s always lessons learned. I think we came up with a list that we have going forward. But each storm is a little bit different, so what I would say is I don’t think there’s anything big. I think we have an idea of how we need to respond to certain events, but each one is a little bit different. I don’t know that there was anything big, but there’s always little things. “How could we have been a little bit better prepared to put together the work crews?” or something like that. But overall I think we did a fantastic job.

[Assistant] I thought it was interesting because on our contract we were asked to start getting prepared for the event, but I don’t recall that the Center ever moved toward those levels of preparation.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We ended up, I guess it was Friday afternoon, sort of shutting down. We never really shut down the e-mail system or really said, “Hey, you’re on your own,” simply because we weren’t in a situation [where] we were expecting to lose power or where people were really going to be leaving Houston. They were just leaving the Center to go to their homes in most cases. It was quite a bit different than Ike and when we evacuated for Rita. You’re always trying to make the right call just based on the circumstances.\n\n As you know, Houston as a city never evacuated, which would have been a nightmare if you’d tried to do it. You would have just seen thousands of cars swept away, I think. It was really more about hunkering down in your home, and then obviously there were a number of people that had to be rescued. But I don’t know that there was any way to avoid that. We had 43 inches of rain here at JSC in what, three or four days, and as much as over 50 in some areas of Houston. There’s just no way where you have a storm like that where people aren’t impacted. They really tried to minimize injuries and deaths, and I think overall the city did a fantastic job in doing that.

[Assistant] Yes, I know there’s been criticism of the mayor about not evacuating; it’s been a big discussion.

[User] That’s only by people who have never participated in an evacuation. They don’t realize what it means till 4 million people get on the road. That’s crazy, especially when the rains were going to start. It would have been a parking lot on the roads. You know how the roads flood. People were much safer in their homes than out on the roads.

[Assistant] A lot of those people weren’t here for Rita. I do remember that, being stuck [on the interstate].

[User] Exactly, yes.

[Assistant] I wasn’t sure if there was anything else about Harvey. I didn’t have a lot of information, just looking through the Roundups.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s only by people who have never participated in an evacuation. They don’t realize what it means till 4 million people get on the road. That’s crazy, especially when the rains were going to start. It would have been a parking lot on the roads. You know how the roads flood. People were much safer in their homes than out on the roads.

[Assistant] A lot of those people weren’t here for Rita. I do remember that, being stuck [on the interstate].

[User] Exactly, yes.

[Assistant] I wasn’t sure if there was anything else about Harvey. I didn’t have a lot of information, just looking through the Roundups.

[User] I don’t know. Our team pulled together, they did a great job, made sure we continued with the operations that we needed to continue with, and I think are continuing to try to help out those people in our community who are obviously still in a situation which is—their whole lives have changed. If you’ve lost everything in your home, that’s not something you recover from quickly. I think it’s very very difficult for those people.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Just finding skilled employees to come work in your house, that’s extremely difficult.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly, yes.

[Assistant] I wasn’t sure if there was anything else about Harvey. I didn’t have a lot of information, just looking through the Roundups.

[User] I don’t know. Our team pulled together, they did a great job, made sure we continued with the operations that we needed to continue with, and I think are continuing to try to help out those people in our community who are obviously still in a situation which is—their whole lives have changed. If you’ve lost everything in your home, that’s not something you recover from quickly. I think it’s very very difficult for those people.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Just finding skilled employees to come work in your house, that’s extremely difficult.

[User] Yes, when there’s 150,000 people that need them, or more than that probably.

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely, yes. We called somebody during the storm, and I think we’ll see him this spring, maybe; it’s crazy.\n\n I just have some miscellaneous questions that I had come up with. One of those was establishing a spaceport out at Ellington [Field]. I wondered if JSC had played a role in that decision. I know we have a Space Act Agreement. Maybe the benefits for JSC [of] having a spaceport.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We do try to update it every once in a while. I think we’re getting ready for another update.

[Assistant] I was wondering about that. Are you working on JSC 2.018 and some of those plans?

[User] Yes, we are. We had a senior staff retreat last Friday, and then we’re going to meet again in January and finalize our thoughts. Part of it was reviewing what we had done this year, and in some of the areas did we want to continue, or do we have some other themes that we want to look at for 2018. We’ll probably be rolling that out in January. In fact, I have an all-hands scheduled for January 19th, so we’ll be talking more about that.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about EM [Exploration Mission]-1. There was a decision made about putting a crew on that mission, and NASA decided that they wouldn’t be putting a crew on there. Were you part of that decision? Were you included in those discussions?

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Would you talk about that and the pros and cons?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we are. We had a senior staff retreat last Friday, and then we’re going to meet again in January and finalize our thoughts. Part of it was reviewing what we had done this year, and in some of the areas did we want to continue, or do we have some other themes that we want to look at for 2018. We’ll probably be rolling that out in January. In fact, I have an all-hands scheduled for January 19th, so we’ll be talking more about that.

[Assistant] I wanted to ask about EM [Exploration Mission]-1. There was a decision made about putting a crew on that mission, and NASA decided that they wouldn’t be putting a crew on there. Were you part of that decision? Were you included in those discussions?

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Would you talk about that and the pros and cons?

[User] Sure, yes.

[Assistant] I know there’s a lot there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, other than that from the beginning they talked a little bit about maybe more of an emphasis on the Moon and not continuing with the asteroid, and they made that pretty definite in October. But as I said, there wasn’t that much that we needed to change based on hearing that.

[Assistant] The President did release his skinny budget, I think, and in that he did cancel the Asteroid Redirect Mission, and then he also canceled the Office of Education. Did that impact education here at JSC?

[User] That was in the President’s proposed budget. What really matters is what’s appropriated by Congress, right? We have draft appropriations bills, but we don’t actually have the actual appropriations bills. The draft bills did include money for education.\n\n Given that there were some concerns about what NASA was doing and trying to make sure that what we do doesn’t seem to duplicate what happens in any other agency, NASA Headquarters reformulated that office, and it’s now called the Office of STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics] Engagement. So [NASA] really tried to focus the activities, and as we submitted a budget it was somewhat reformulated based on what we feel will be supported by Congress as well as we hope by the administration. We still have to really wait and see when Congress actually passes a budget this year what is in there for STEM engagement or education.

[Assistant] I remember when that announcement came out, seeing people trying to figure out what the next move was. Have you guys been preparing? I know for a while there there was a discussion about whether or not there might be a shutdown. Now we have an extended CR [Continuing Resolution] until three days before Christmas.

[User] Right, yes, and they’re working on another CR, which would take us probably into late January or something like that. Based on everything that we’re hearing we expect that CR to go through.

[Assistant] Do you do any work in terms of senior management, or do you just let that roll and figure things are going to work out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, yes, and they’re working on another CR, which would take us probably into late January or something like that. Based on everything that we’re hearing we expect that CR to go through.

[Assistant] Do you do any work in terms of senior management, or do you just let that roll and figure things are going to work out?

[User] We take our cue from Headquarters. Headquarters takes it from OMB [Office of Management and Budget]. Really OMB was saying, “You really don’t need to prepare for shutdown.” Every agency has a shutdown plan, so we look at that once a year anyway just to see what differences there are. For JSC, the main thing that we update is what are the activities associated with the International Space Station that we need to make sure would continue if we would go into a shutdown at a particular time. They look at the actual launches coming up and talk about what needs to be supported. The philosophy is all the same, you’re not really changing your plan, but you are updating with specific vehicles and launches of what’s coming up.

[Assistant] You think this might be a good place to stop?

[User] Probably, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. Thank you very much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I’m fortunate, because I’m fairly thick-skinned, so it hardly ever bothered me personally. But you have to be aware of it, because it affects how you operate.

[Assistant] Do you have any regrets with your time at the National Archive?

[User] There’s a certain sense, you know, 22 years was too long to spend there, but now that I’m out of it, having helped NARA get over the PROFS case, like I said, get the case eventually dismissed in our favor; having gotten NARA to really take electronic records seriously to acquiring and investing hundreds of millions of dollars in it, and even though it’s probably still a paper mindset, there was a huge difference between when I arrived in ’88 and ’98 in terms of accepting electronic records as a reality—a real challenge and a reality we had to deal with. It was a huge conversion in that period of time. So I’m glad to have been helping NARA to move along that way.

[Assistant] Where do you see NARA - -? Where do you see ERA 2.0 going? Or where would you like it to go in the future of ERA?

[User] Well, if I had any influence, the future would be more in the original direction of actually implementing preservation capabilities, and in my concept, preserving electronic records goes all the way to delivering them to people 10, 20, 50 years from now. In electronic records, you cannot divorce access from preservation. You do preservation to provide access, and you have to presume that people are going to want access to current technology. They don’t want to use obsolete technology. That remains a challenge that the longer we delay addressing that, the harder it’s going to be. We’ll be playing catch-up.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there any last words you’d like to say here, Ken, about your time or thinking of any other stories you’d like to impart that you maybe forgot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In parallel we were still launching the current vehicles we had. So we were still operating under the existing way while trying to envision how we were going to transition to the new way. So we had two or three launches a year at the time. It wasn’t like we had a whole bunch stacked. Because again when Challenger went, we were supposed to be—other than Shuttle/Centaur, we were supposed to be going out of business. So we only had a couple, three launches anywhere left.\n\n Now they gradually went and picked back up once we started remanifesting things from the Shuttle and started putting them back on ELVs. The manifests for ELVs started getting repopulated. Of course it takes a couple years before they come down to be on the launch site.\n\n But anyway, that was the one gap.

[Assistant] Well, that’s a good one. Thank you for filling that in.

[User] It was significant to the ELV world in my opinion. It changed us in a way because you learned what it took to live in the Shuttle world. There’s a lot of similarities. One side would accuse the other that, “Oh, you don’t do business the way we do.” Or, “Oh, your safety policies are lax. You don’t do the same level of stringency we do.” I won’t argue with anybody, but I’ll just tell you, having lived in both worlds, they aren’t that much different.

[Assistant] Well, let’s talk about the other world, because you were in one culture since you had arrived, which was 1971.

[User] Spent eighteen years in one culture, and then went to the other one.

[Assistant] So tell us how you became involved with that, because you were at a time right after Challenger.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. They wouldn’t give it up now. We did the first one and it found numerous things. So when you broke the configuration for next one, we said, “There’ll be another wave of components coming down, we need to”—so there was an MEIT 1, an MEIT 2. Now if nothing else, the software and the computers interacting with each other, they can have the SIL [System Integration Laboratory] labs and they can go do it all and they can proof it, but we stuck it over there, and we found things that hadn’t popped out. Everybody accepts it. It proved itself.

[Assistant] We’ve talked a lot about the technical side of it, but want to share your thoughts of when you saw the Unity [Module] go up and mate with the Zarya [Control Module] for that time, and tell us about the experiences that—or the feelings that you and your team felt of seeing how well it worked?

[User] Well, it’d been with us a long time.

[Assistant] Like a friend of the family.

[User] Yes, well, there’s a time to launch things after they’ve been here a while. So yes. Anything takes that long, you begin to wonder, “Are we ever going to get there?” The fact that we could get that one out and get started—because you always felt if you ever get the first one, the rest of them will follow. But it was like we’re never going to get the first one. Because it sat in the SSPF for a while, and then there’d be a new problem come up, and, “Well, we’re moving this,” and juggle the schedules. So yes, I just felt good that if we could get the first one, then you say, “Okay, at least we broke through and the rest of them will follow now.” So that was my sense. Just nice to get the first one off, knowing that that would get it started.

[Assistant] Well, you did that. You didn’t get to stay long in that area, because back at the beginning of 2000 you went back to ELV land. Is that like crossing the river, you go back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’d been with us a long time.

[Assistant] Like a friend of the family.

[User] Yes, well, there’s a time to launch things after they’ve been here a while. So yes. Anything takes that long, you begin to wonder, “Are we ever going to get there?” The fact that we could get that one out and get started—because you always felt if you ever get the first one, the rest of them will follow. But it was like we’re never going to get the first one. Because it sat in the SSPF for a while, and then there’d be a new problem come up, and, “Well, we’re moving this,” and juggle the schedules. So yes, I just felt good that if we could get the first one, then you say, “Okay, at least we broke through and the rest of them will follow now.” So that was my sense. Just nice to get the first one off, knowing that that would get it started.

[Assistant] Well, you did that. You didn’t get to stay long in that area, because back at the beginning of 2000 you went back to ELV land. Is that like crossing the river, you go back?

[User] The problem was I wanted to go back across the river because I kept thinking by that time they had moved enough folks over on the KSC property side that I didn’t get to go back across the river.

[Assistant] They changed it for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s the word now. This will continue. Expanding is always relative. I say that tongue in cheek.

[Assistant] No, but it is. It’s a good difference.

[User] It is. Most people, “Oh well, we’re going to be twice as busy next year as we—” Answer is we are typically five or six launches a year. We’re built for seven or so. We’re in balance with where the Agency’s budget is. If you’re building Constellation, there’s only so much they can invest in the Science Mission Directorate [SMD]. We’re really driven by that. We don’t stand alone. We thought real hard when we made it the Launch Services Program, because we don’t just buy vehicles and say, “We got them, and we’re launching them whether you’re on them or not.” We’re not quite that independent. We are a service. We try to carry that through that we’ve got a customer, and we’re only as good as he is. If the Science Mission Directorate budget goes down, then we know it’s going to directly reflect on us. We also know that success might enhance the budget. So if SMD can be successful with those flagship missions and we’re part of that success, then that’s a good thing, both for the Agency and for us and for science.\n\n So I think that’s why you see a willingness of the people to just do whatever it takes to make sure we’re successful, because we recognize that we’re an integral part. We’ve got our responsibility, but there isn’t an effect if we’re not. Because there are so few dollars, and believe me, this world, you have one bad day and they’ll remember it and it’ll show up in a lot of ways.

[Assistant] Takes a long time to recuperate off a bad day.

[User] Yes. That’s the only thing. I lead a group that’s not—knock on wood—we’ve been very fortunate—and in their lifetime most of my folks haven’t had a bad day.

[Assistant] That’s the good news.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think you did pretty good.

[Assistant] Well, thanks. Just a curiosity question. I know that you mentioned you had five to seven that you have that you could launch. How many do you have going all at one time? Projects from inception to launch that you’re juggling on a whiteboard.

[User] Oh, juggling? Anywhere from thirty to forty. The missions, the early ones you’re talking about there, can start seven years out. So we’ll be juggling some seven years from now talking about, to the ones that we’ve actually bought vehicles for to the ones we’re actually on. Yes, we used to keep track of that, but any given time it’s been as high as close to forty, but it can be anything from thirty to forty in a year that we’re touching in some phase, either just talking about releasing an AO [announcement of opportunity] or a proposition for, to which ones are we contracting vehicles for versus which ones are in the launch queue the next three years. Typically we’ll get the launch vehicle procured and everything two to three years out. So those last two or three is you actually got a mission, you got the vehicle identified, you’re actually—but before that you’re making trades of what vehicle would this go on, how would you advise the customer. So that whole spectrum could be seven to ten years, and it can be thirty to forty missions.

[Assistant] Do you have a lot of them drop out during that time period for any reasons?

[User] Some do. There’ll be a trade. If SMD is trading, and they may decide to just not pursue one. But that’s alright, they’ll generally stick something else in its place.

[Assistant] That’s good. Well, we wish you luck, and we wish you to be busy until you end up going out of business. Like you said, maybe that’ll be another thirty something years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s the cost of doing business, and they are quite expensive. Planetary launch vehicles are not cheap if you’re going to leave the Earth’s orbit. I wish we could just use some of the smaller vehicles that are available to the other disciplines, but it just doesn’t work out that way. It’s 10 to 20 percent of the cost of a mission for the launch vehicle alone. Maybe in the future as other groups are getting more involved in it, more commercial vendors will be working on it. SpaceX right now, as an example, is perfecting a new rocket called Falcon 9 Heavy, and that’s probably a vehicle worthy of some planetary missions that we can do. If Elon [Musk] keeps on track the way he is doing, it will be a very competitive cost, that will help drive down the overall cost of the launch vehicles, and we have to do that because right now they are just incredibly expensive.

[Assistant] I imagine that’s a big challenge for you.

[User] It is. I’ll give you an example. We could spend $200 million to launch a $500 million spacecraft.

[Assistant] $200 million?

[User] For the launch vehicle. Yes.

[Assistant] It’s not quite launching the Space Shuttle, but it’s up there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. I’ll give you an example. We could spend $200 million to launch a $500 million spacecraft.

[Assistant] $200 million?

[User] For the launch vehicle. Yes.

[Assistant] It’s not quite launching the Space Shuttle, but it’s up there.

[User] Just for the launch vehicle.

[Assistant] Do you have access to those vehicles, because I also understand there are other people who want these vehicles, the military.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For the launch vehicle. Yes.

[Assistant] It’s not quite launching the Space Shuttle, but it’s up there.

[User] Just for the launch vehicle.

[Assistant] Do you have access to those vehicles, because I also understand there are other people who want these vehicles, the military.

[User] We have a contract vehicle at NASA that we use, that Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate actually manage the purchase of the launch vehicles that SMD uses. We have to use that contract, so there’s a call for proposals for all those approved vendors that satisfy the NASA regulations that enable them to bid on planetary missions. Then the proposals come in and are evaluated, and the launch vehicle is decided on, and then we’re told what the price is and we pay it.

[Assistant] That seems like the wrong way to do it—without competition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just for the launch vehicle.

[Assistant] Do you have access to those vehicles, because I also understand there are other people who want these vehicles, the military.

[User] We have a contract vehicle at NASA that we use, that Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate actually manage the purchase of the launch vehicles that SMD uses. We have to use that contract, so there’s a call for proposals for all those approved vendors that satisfy the NASA regulations that enable them to bid on planetary missions. Then the proposals come in and are evaluated, and the launch vehicle is decided on, and then we’re told what the price is and we pay it.

[Assistant] That seems like the wrong way to do it—without competition.

[User] Well there is competition. Right now, we only fly American vehicles. It’s not like it’s open to every launch vehicle that’s made by other nations. But that’s part of doing business in Planetary Science at the moment.

[Assistant] That brings up a question that I was thinking about. Recently, [President Donald] Trump visited Europe, and there was a lot of discussion about him not bringing up Article 5 at NATO. Angela Merkel [Chancellor of Germany] made this comment that we can no longer count on the US. I know we have a lot of missions where we’re joint partners with the Europeans. I’m wondering, has that filtered down to NASA? Is there some concern on the part of the Europeans about NASA’s role and our partnership?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok. I'm Carol Hifley Crew. Hifley when I was in the Peace Corps. I live in Seattle, Washington and I was in Chile. We were Chile XIII, with the group Chile XIII, 1964 to '66.

[Assistant] And what was the project?

[User] The project was a cooperative, cooperatives, specifically credit union cooperatives was what most of our group was trained in. However, I was, they split some of us off into cooperative education.

[Assistant] We'll get to that. I usually start by asking people to go back to before they join the Peace Corps. Give a little bit of your background and then maybe talk about the motivation that got you into the Peace Corps so you can go back as far as you want.

[User] Oh, well, I was born. No, I lived in Reno, Nevada, and had practically never been out of the state. I had gone to the local schools and managed to get a scholarship so I could go to the University of Nevada in Reno, which is the state university, and I was studying journalism. And so in studying journalism, we really, a lot of what one in one class we studied Time magazine from, you know, 1960 through 1964, which was the Kennedy era. And so we were I was just totally imbued. And of course, being of that age, totally enraptured with the change that Kennedy was bringing, a young feeling in the country. And I come from a very Democratic labor union, kind of a family anyway, so we have been Democrats anyway. And when he was killed, I was really shaken by that.

[Assistant] And where were you in college then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, well, I was born. No, I lived in Reno, Nevada, and had practically never been out of the state. I had gone to the local schools and managed to get a scholarship so I could go to the University of Nevada in Reno, which is the state university, and I was studying journalism. And so in studying journalism, we really, a lot of what one in one class we studied Time magazine from, you know, 1960 through 1964, which was the Kennedy era. And so we were I was just totally imbued. And of course, being of that age, totally enraptured with the change that Kennedy was bringing, a young feeling in the country. And I come from a very Democratic labor union, kind of a family anyway, so we have been Democrats anyway. And when he was killed, I was really shaken by that.

[Assistant] And where were you in college then?

[User] I was in college. It was my senior year in college. And it was just shaking communities. Just a terrible thing to happen. And I don't know when, in the spring, I don't know, there must be some kind of recruiting stuff, and I went and took the Peace Corps test, and I remember my friends going, what are you doing? Are you nuts? And it just was one of those very few decisions that I've been able to make in my life. I was so sure that's what I wanted to do. It was no problem with. I was absolutely going to do it. They sent me this thing saying, I guess, would you like to go to Chile? I had to go look it up, literally. I did not know where Chile was.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your family when you first said, well, I think I'll join the Peace Corps?

[User] You know, it's hard to remember that I don't actually know. I think whatever the reaction was, I was oblivious to it. It didn't matter. You know, my mind was so completely made up.

[Assistant] And at that time, there was still a fairly lengthy exam before you got an invitation. Do you recall the exam at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in college. It was my senior year in college. And it was just shaking communities. Just a terrible thing to happen. And I don't know when, in the spring, I don't know, there must be some kind of recruiting stuff, and I went and took the Peace Corps test, and I remember my friends going, what are you doing? Are you nuts? And it just was one of those very few decisions that I've been able to make in my life. I was so sure that's what I wanted to do. It was no problem with. I was absolutely going to do it. They sent me this thing saying, I guess, would you like to go to Chile? I had to go look it up, literally. I did not know where Chile was.

[Assistant] What was the reaction of your family when you first said, well, I think I'll join the Peace Corps?

[User] You know, it's hard to remember that I don't actually know. I think whatever the reaction was, I was oblivious to it. It didn't matter. You know, my mind was so completely made up.

[Assistant] And at that time, there was still a fairly lengthy exam before you got an invitation. Do you recall the exam at all?

[User] Very, very little about the exam. I just remember going and doing it and didn't seem like a difficult thing, but I remember doing the exam.

[Assistant] Let me go back to your high school years. During high school vacations or other, were you at all involved in service projects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it's hard to remember that I don't actually know. I think whatever the reaction was, I was oblivious to it. It didn't matter. You know, my mind was so completely made up.

[Assistant] And at that time, there was still a fairly lengthy exam before you got an invitation. Do you recall the exam at all?

[User] Very, very little about the exam. I just remember going and doing it and didn't seem like a difficult thing, but I remember doing the exam.

[Assistant] Let me go back to your high school years. During high school vacations or other, were you at all involved in service projects?

[User] Absolutely not. I came from a pretty poor family, pretty much without resources. We didn't even go on vacations, you know, so it wasn't a concept, you know, it wasn't.

[Assistant] So also very little travel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very, very little about the exam. I just remember going and doing it and didn't seem like a difficult thing, but I remember doing the exam.

[Assistant] Let me go back to your high school years. During high school vacations or other, were you at all involved in service projects?

[User] Absolutely not. I came from a pretty poor family, pretty much without resources. We didn't even go on vacations, you know, so it wasn't a concept, you know, it wasn't.

[Assistant] So also very little travel.

[User] Yeah. Oh, hardly any. I'd already been. I'd been to San Francisco like twice. You know, it was a total of.

[Assistant] How about studying of a foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely not. I came from a pretty poor family, pretty much without resources. We didn't even go on vacations, you know, so it wasn't a concept, you know, it wasn't.

[Assistant] So also very little travel.

[User] Yeah. Oh, hardly any. I'd already been. I'd been to San Francisco like twice. You know, it was a total of.

[Assistant] How about studying of a foreign language?

[User] I had been studying French, of course. I had been studying French food through high through college a couple of years in high school and through college. And so, of course, that was just enough to really make it hard to learn Spanish.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you're now in your third, fourth year of college and completing a degree in journalism.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Oh, hardly any. I'd already been. I'd been to San Francisco like twice. You know, it was a total of.

[Assistant] How about studying of a foreign language?

[User] I had been studying French, of course. I had been studying French food through high through college a couple of years in high school and through college. And so, of course, that was just enough to really make it hard to learn Spanish.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you're now in your third, fourth year of college and completing a degree in journalism.

[User] In journalism, yeah.

[Assistant] Other than the Peace Corps, did you have any kind of career goal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had been studying French, of course. I had been studying French food through high through college a couple of years in high school and through college. And so, of course, that was just enough to really make it hard to learn Spanish.

[Assistant] Yeah. So you're now in your third, fourth year of college and completing a degree in journalism.

[User] In journalism, yeah.

[Assistant] Other than the Peace Corps, did you have any kind of career goal?

[User] No, I was really. Yeah, my career goal was really to be a reporter, and I had actually thought I'd be a print reporter. But the internship I got when I was in college was with a television station, you know, which is basically sort of rewriting wire copy or, you know, I mean, we didn't get to do very much, but Reno was a very small town, so I don't even know if there was a second TV station at the time. It might have just been the one. And it was very, it was a lot of fun. I mean, you know, it was intriguing and it was fun and it was local. You know, local news coverage was pretty basic. You know, I don't even know if we had sound on film, it might have been just black and white. I don't know, you know, but it was interesting and it was journalism, you know, to the extent. But it wasn't right. It wasn't the kind I was going to do, which was going to be print. I was going to write for a newspaper.

[Assistant] Yeah. But in your fourth year, you took the exam and then you got the invitation to a country you didn't know to work in a language you didn't know.