[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was in my second year.

[Assistant] Second year.

[User] And, um, that was, that was fun. But no one came to my village. It was, um, it was too, I think, far from medical care for them to feel comfortable to visit.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, um, and I guess. Normally, you know, your year, your first year is adjustment. Your second year is a rush to do those things that you wanted. How was your second year of service, did it?

[User] Well. My second year of service, I had a different health care director and I, who was very, very difficult to work with and kind of scary. And so he was a violent person. And I just stopped hanging out in the clinic. I still worked with the midwives sometimes, but I focused primarily on community development and public health education. So I was in the schools and we did community events, but my construction projects were not done when I was free to go. So and I had this feeling that maybe they would never finish if I did leave. And so I stuck around for a few more months until the fall and we had buildings inaugurated and people were trained.

[Assistant] And this was a, was it a Peace Corps extension? I mean, an official extension of service? I mean, you were able to extend?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, that was, that was fun. But no one came to my village. It was, um, it was too, I think, far from medical care for them to feel comfortable to visit.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, um, and I guess. Normally, you know, your year, your first year is adjustment. Your second year is a rush to do those things that you wanted. How was your second year of service, did it?

[User] Well. My second year of service, I had a different health care director and I, who was very, very difficult to work with and kind of scary. And so he was a violent person. And I just stopped hanging out in the clinic. I still worked with the midwives sometimes, but I focused primarily on community development and public health education. So I was in the schools and we did community events, but my construction projects were not done when I was free to go. So and I had this feeling that maybe they would never finish if I did leave. And so I stuck around for a few more months until the fall and we had buildings inaugurated and people were trained.

[Assistant] And this was a, was it a Peace Corps extension? I mean, an official extension of service? I mean, you were able to extend?

[User] It was unofficial.

[Assistant] It was an unofficial extension, because I know there was, there were designations that some did that and then others were able to get an extra year or.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well. My second year of service, I had a different health care director and I, who was very, very difficult to work with and kind of scary. And so he was a violent person. And I just stopped hanging out in the clinic. I still worked with the midwives sometimes, but I focused primarily on community development and public health education. So I was in the schools and we did community events, but my construction projects were not done when I was free to go. So and I had this feeling that maybe they would never finish if I did leave. And so I stuck around for a few more months until the fall and we had buildings inaugurated and people were trained.

[Assistant] And this was a, was it a Peace Corps extension? I mean, an official extension of service? I mean, you were able to extend?

[User] It was unofficial.

[Assistant] It was an unofficial extension, because I know there was, there were designations that some did that and then others were able to get an extra year or.

[User] Right. There were some people who did extend for a year, but I just hung around for an extra period of time.

[Assistant] Did that, you know, you have the formal COS [close of service]. Did that just, you just waited your COS for a period of time or were you already officially parted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was unofficial.

[Assistant] It was an unofficial extension, because I know there was, there were designations that some did that and then others were able to get an extra year or.

[User] Right. There were some people who did extend for a year, but I just hung around for an extra period of time.

[Assistant] Did that, you know, you have the formal COS [close of service]. Did that just, you just waited your COS for a period of time or were you already officially parted?

[User] I must have just waited. I don't remember how that, how I worked that out, but I mean we did have, all together we had a COS conference out on an island off of the capital. And then after that, I went back to my site and finished up. And then I went back up to the capital. Uh. Yeah. And it was rainy season by then.

[Assistant] So did you. You didn't, uh, you know, there's the option. Did you take the immediate flight home from the country or did you travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. There were some people who did extend for a year, but I just hung around for an extra period of time.

[Assistant] Did that, you know, you have the formal COS [close of service]. Did that just, you just waited your COS for a period of time or were you already officially parted?

[User] I must have just waited. I don't remember how that, how I worked that out, but I mean we did have, all together we had a COS conference out on an island off of the capital. And then after that, I went back to my site and finished up. And then I went back up to the capital. Uh. Yeah. And it was rainy season by then.

[Assistant] So did you. You didn't, uh, you know, there's the option. Did you take the immediate flight home from the country or did you travel?

[User] I, I traveled. My, uh, so my father had visited in The Gambia and my mother retired when I COSed. So I traded my ticket home to a flight to Kenya. And we met in Kenya and went on a safari. And then we came home. This is kind of the slow way through Europe and then.

[Assistant] With your mother?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I must have just waited. I don't remember how that, how I worked that out, but I mean we did have, all together we had a COS conference out on an island off of the capital. And then after that, I went back to my site and finished up. And then I went back up to the capital. Uh. Yeah. And it was rainy season by then.

[Assistant] So did you. You didn't, uh, you know, there's the option. Did you take the immediate flight home from the country or did you travel?

[User] I, I traveled. My, uh, so my father had visited in The Gambia and my mother retired when I COSed. So I traded my ticket home to a flight to Kenya. And we met in Kenya and went on a safari. And then we came home. This is kind of the slow way through Europe and then.

[Assistant] With your mother?

[User] With my mother and with her husband. And that was, they're adjusting to being retired and my adjusting to being retired, I guess, COS.

[Assistant] So apparently your mother had come to accept and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, I traveled. My, uh, so my father had visited in The Gambia and my mother retired when I COSed. So I traded my ticket home to a flight to Kenya. And we met in Kenya and went on a safari. And then we came home. This is kind of the slow way through Europe and then.

[Assistant] With your mother?

[User] With my mother and with her husband. And that was, they're adjusting to being retired and my adjusting to being retired, I guess, COS.

[Assistant] So apparently your mother had come to accept and?

[User] She did.

[Assistant] And did she come to value the experience, your experience I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With my mother and with her husband. And that was, they're adjusting to being retired and my adjusting to being retired, I guess, COS.

[Assistant] So apparently your mother had come to accept and?

[User] She did.

[Assistant] And did she come to value the experience, your experience I mean?

[User] She, and she has. I think mostly she was relieved that I had survived.

[Assistant] Yeah. Of course.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She did.

[Assistant] And did she come to value the experience, your experience I mean?

[User] She, and she has. I think mostly she was relieved that I had survived.

[Assistant] Yeah. Of course.

[User] And but she had focused on Africa since I was there. We lived in New Orleans before I left and she was in New Orleans there. And so the Audubon Zoo has had travel packages. And when she saw something in Africa, you know, she started to focus on that for her retirement exit strategy. So that was, that was really nice to be able to spend some time with her. It's very different in East Africa, but it's still sunny and beautiful so.

[Assistant] In the, you know, the end of service, of course, as that comes. Did you have, were you putting together, you know, what's next while you were still serving in the Peace Corps? But did you have ideas of what you were going to do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She, and she has. I think mostly she was relieved that I had survived.

[Assistant] Yeah. Of course.

[User] And but she had focused on Africa since I was there. We lived in New Orleans before I left and she was in New Orleans there. And so the Audubon Zoo has had travel packages. And when she saw something in Africa, you know, she started to focus on that for her retirement exit strategy. So that was, that was really nice to be able to spend some time with her. It's very different in East Africa, but it's still sunny and beautiful so.

[Assistant] In the, you know, the end of service, of course, as that comes. Did you have, were you putting together, you know, what's next while you were still serving in the Peace Corps? But did you have ideas of what you were going to do?

[User] I did. I wanted to go to medical school. I figured if I could do some of the things that I did for two full years, then I could definitely do medical school. That was, that had seemed so hard to me before, but, um, yeah. So I started going to school to do my, because I had only studied French and Spanish. I didn't have any science prerequisites or anything. It was kind of a crazy idea.

[Assistant] This is when you come back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And but she had focused on Africa since I was there. We lived in New Orleans before I left and she was in New Orleans there. And so the Audubon Zoo has had travel packages. And when she saw something in Africa, you know, she started to focus on that for her retirement exit strategy. So that was, that was really nice to be able to spend some time with her. It's very different in East Africa, but it's still sunny and beautiful so.

[Assistant] In the, you know, the end of service, of course, as that comes. Did you have, were you putting together, you know, what's next while you were still serving in the Peace Corps? But did you have ideas of what you were going to do?

[User] I did. I wanted to go to medical school. I figured if I could do some of the things that I did for two full years, then I could definitely do medical school. That was, that had seemed so hard to me before, but, um, yeah. So I started going to school to do my, because I had only studied French and Spanish. I didn't have any science prerequisites or anything. It was kind of a crazy idea.

[Assistant] This is when you come back?

[User] When I came back.

[Assistant] And you did come back to Madison?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I wanted to go to medical school. I figured if I could do some of the things that I did for two full years, then I could definitely do medical school. That was, that had seemed so hard to me before, but, um, yeah. So I started going to school to do my, because I had only studied French and Spanish. I didn't have any science prerequisites or anything. It was kind of a crazy idea.

[Assistant] This is when you come back?

[User] When I came back.

[Assistant] And you did come back to Madison?

[User] To New Orleans.

[Assistant] To New Orleans. Okay. That's where your mother lived.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To New Orleans.

[Assistant] To New Orleans. Okay. That's where your mother lived.

[User] Mm hmm. And that's where I had been living before I before I went to serve. And so I did my prerequisites and I had appendicitis pretty quickly after I came home. When I finally was able to communicate with someone from my village, they weren't surprised at all. They said, oh, it was all the rocks in the rice.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I had a long recovery time and started working in the Charity Hospital emergency room in New Orleans there when I was taking my prerequisites for medical school and started to learn about research and I, uh, by the time I was accepted to medical school, I didn't want to go anymore. I had seen a lot of that culture close up and had different ideas by then.

[Assistant] So did you have, uh, I know you went, you recently went back to Africa to Rwanda.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. And that's where I had been living before I before I went to serve. And so I did my prerequisites and I had appendicitis pretty quickly after I came home. When I finally was able to communicate with someone from my village, they weren't surprised at all. They said, oh, it was all the rocks in the rice.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I had a long recovery time and started working in the Charity Hospital emergency room in New Orleans there when I was taking my prerequisites for medical school and started to learn about research and I, uh, by the time I was accepted to medical school, I didn't want to go anymore. I had seen a lot of that culture close up and had different ideas by then.

[Assistant] So did you have, uh, I know you went, you recently went back to Africa to Rwanda.

[User] That's true.

[Assistant] Do you have relationships or contacts with people still from your village that are ongoing or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I had a long recovery time and started working in the Charity Hospital emergency room in New Orleans there when I was taking my prerequisites for medical school and started to learn about research and I, uh, by the time I was accepted to medical school, I didn't want to go anymore. I had seen a lot of that culture close up and had different ideas by then.

[Assistant] So did you have, uh, I know you went, you recently went back to Africa to Rwanda.

[User] That's true.

[Assistant] Do you have relationships or contacts with people still from your village that are ongoing or?

[User]
Well, we didn't have email. There was Internet was not available for public access really until partway through my service. And so I couldn't exchange email accounts with my villagers. And however, when Facebook started and I started making connections with people, one of my students, one of my former students who had grown up and was working for the US, on a USDA project, was really connected on social media and we found each other. And so through him, I've been able to kind of send messages to people, but I really don't, don't have good relationships with anyone.

I was able to work with him. One of the happiest experiences I think of my life, one of the most satisfying outcomes of Peace Corps, is when Ebola hit our area. He was able to write some grants that I was able to help translate and get funded to do some outreach events in my village and in Guinea. That was really fantastic.

[Assistant] And that would have been in like just the last three or four years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true.

[Assistant] Do you have relationships or contacts with people still from your village that are ongoing or?

[User]
Well, we didn't have email. There was Internet was not available for public access really until partway through my service. And so I couldn't exchange email accounts with my villagers. And however, when Facebook started and I started making connections with people, one of my students, one of my former students who had grown up and was working for the US, on a USDA project, was really connected on social media and we found each other. And so through him, I've been able to kind of send messages to people, but I really don't, don't have good relationships with anyone.

I was able to work with him. One of the happiest experiences I think of my life, one of the most satisfying outcomes of Peace Corps, is when Ebola hit our area. He was able to write some grants that I was able to help translate and get funded to do some outreach events in my village and in Guinea. That was really fantastic.

[Assistant] And that would have been in like just the last three or four years?

[User] Yes. And he had been on one of my projects and he learned how to write grants in my little living room in a group of his peers. And they wrote a beautiful project and came up with their 25 percent contribution pretty handily. And, uh, and then he ended up using that for his career. It's something that makes me so happy to know, that he's been able to do so many great projects in his life.

[Assistant] So, okay, we. You left the, left Africa in '97. And then you were in New Orleans. And then you see that you went to Togo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, we didn't have email. There was Internet was not available for public access really until partway through my service. And so I couldn't exchange email accounts with my villagers. And however, when Facebook started and I started making connections with people, one of my students, one of my former students who had grown up and was working for the US, on a USDA project, was really connected on social media and we found each other. And so through him, I've been able to kind of send messages to people, but I really don't, don't have good relationships with anyone.

I was able to work with him. One of the happiest experiences I think of my life, one of the most satisfying outcomes of Peace Corps, is when Ebola hit our area. He was able to write some grants that I was able to help translate and get funded to do some outreach events in my village and in Guinea. That was really fantastic.

[Assistant] And that would have been in like just the last three or four years?

[User] Yes. And he had been on one of my projects and he learned how to write grants in my little living room in a group of his peers. And they wrote a beautiful project and came up with their 25 percent contribution pretty handily. And, uh, and then he ended up using that for his career. It's something that makes me so happy to know, that he's been able to do so many great projects in his life.

[Assistant] So, okay, we. You left the, left Africa in '97. And then you were in New Orleans. And then you see that you went to Togo.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In 2001. Um. Was that. So you're not going to medical school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And he had been on one of my projects and he learned how to write grants in my little living room in a group of his peers. And they wrote a beautiful project and came up with their 25 percent contribution pretty handily. And, uh, and then he ended up using that for his career. It's something that makes me so happy to know, that he's been able to do so many great projects in his life.

[Assistant] So, okay, we. You left the, left Africa in '97. And then you were in New Orleans. And then you see that you went to Togo.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In 2001. Um. Was that. So you're not going to medical school.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So you decided to go back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] To Africa?

[User]
Yeah. I was really missing it. And, uh, and that was just a six month commitment that was. But that was really fun. That was working on a really technical level with counterparts who were on similar career paths that I was on. That was really a great experience and, uh, I was able to work on UN Development Program grant doing community assessments with the Red Cross volunteers in a few regions in Togo to prepare trainings for peer volunteers to go out in the villages and help neighbors better support families who had children who were dying of AIDS living with them. And I wish that it had been a project where we were providing medical care and medications and nutrition.

But this was Red Cross. What we had were volunteers. And so we could help people to be less fearful and to kind of understand that the parents aren't able to work as much and they need firewood and we can help by doing a lot of things. And so that was, uh, we had a lot of focus groups done with faith communities were reaching out. They had members who were struggling and I started referring. There was an organization that was funded by the World Bank in kind of the neighborhood that my, uh, Red Cross office was in the capital, where they supported patients and with medical care and with all of the services that they needed that we couldn't. So I started referring patients to this organization called Vie Sans SIDA, Life Without AIDS, that my future husband was the executive director of. And that's how we met.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And so I started.

[Assistant] So he was involved in the organization that you kind of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah. I was really missing it. And, uh, and that was just a six month commitment that was. But that was really fun. That was working on a really technical level with counterparts who were on similar career paths that I was on. That was really a great experience and, uh, I was able to work on UN Development Program grant doing community assessments with the Red Cross volunteers in a few regions in Togo to prepare trainings for peer volunteers to go out in the villages and help neighbors better support families who had children who were dying of AIDS living with them. And I wish that it had been a project where we were providing medical care and medications and nutrition.

But this was Red Cross. What we had were volunteers. And so we could help people to be less fearful and to kind of understand that the parents aren't able to work as much and they need firewood and we can help by doing a lot of things. And so that was, uh, we had a lot of focus groups done with faith communities were reaching out. They had members who were struggling and I started referring. There was an organization that was funded by the World Bank in kind of the neighborhood that my, uh, Red Cross office was in the capital, where they supported patients and with medical care and with all of the services that they needed that we couldn't. So I started referring patients to this organization called Vie Sans SIDA, Life Without AIDS, that my future husband was the executive director of. And that's how we met.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And so I started.

[Assistant] So he was involved in the organization that you kind of?

[User] Started referring, yes. He was doing better work, I mean, more immediate care. So they were doing excellent work. So I kept referring people to his organization. And that's how we got to know each other. And after my service was complete, a few months later, he came and joined me in New Orleans, and we were married there. And moved here after Katrina.

[Assistant] After Katrina. Oh, so you were, you were in New Orleans during Katrina?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I started.

[Assistant] So he was involved in the organization that you kind of?

[User] Started referring, yes. He was doing better work, I mean, more immediate care. So they were doing excellent work. So I kept referring people to his organization. And that's how we got to know each other. And after my service was complete, a few months later, he came and joined me in New Orleans, and we were married there. And moved here after Katrina.

[Assistant] After Katrina. Oh, so you were, you were in New Orleans during Katrina?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh. And were you in an area that you couldn't move back to or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Started referring, yes. He was doing better work, I mean, more immediate care. So they were doing excellent work. So I kept referring people to his organization. And that's how we got to know each other. And after my service was complete, a few months later, he came and joined me in New Orleans, and we were married there. And moved here after Katrina.

[Assistant] After Katrina. Oh, so you were, you were in New Orleans during Katrina?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh. And were you in an area that you couldn't move back to or?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Or did circumstances just come together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Oh. And were you in an area that you couldn't move back to or?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Or did circumstances just come together?

[User] It was closed. They closed our neighborhood. It didn't flood on our street. This, a couple of the cross streets flooded. We had a lot of wind damage and trees were down and roads were blocked. Electricity was out for several months. So we couldn't go back. Garbage collection didn't happen. The people who did go and clear out their refrigerators and such, they had garbage piled up over our heads for about a year. Let's see, it was a. And then I got pregnant, so we never moved back.

[Assistant] Okay. You came up to Madison and.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Or did circumstances just come together?

[User] It was closed. They closed our neighborhood. It didn't flood on our street. This, a couple of the cross streets flooded. We had a lot of wind damage and trees were down and roads were blocked. Electricity was out for several months. So we couldn't go back. Garbage collection didn't happen. The people who did go and clear out their refrigerators and such, they had garbage piled up over our heads for about a year. Let's see, it was a. And then I got pregnant, so we never moved back.

[Assistant] Okay. You came up to Madison and.

[User] And we stayed.

[Assistant] And you've essentially been here since?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was closed. They closed our neighborhood. It didn't flood on our street. This, a couple of the cross streets flooded. We had a lot of wind damage and trees were down and roads were blocked. Electricity was out for several months. So we couldn't go back. Garbage collection didn't happen. The people who did go and clear out their refrigerators and such, they had garbage piled up over our heads for about a year. Let's see, it was a. And then I got pregnant, so we never moved back.

[Assistant] Okay. You came up to Madison and.

[User] And we stayed.

[Assistant] And you've essentially been here since?

[User] And my husband loves it here, so go figure.

[Assistant] Well, you're back to your, you're back to your source.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we stayed.

[Assistant] And you've essentially been here since?

[User] And my husband loves it here, so go figure.

[Assistant] Well, you're back to your, you're back to your source.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Kind of end this up with, they always. One of the questions, and it's just these are like the three general goals of the Peace Corps. And if you could just provide like experiences in your service that met the goals. I'll give you the first one, to provide technical assistance where requested. Well, I mean, I think it's been obvious.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my husband loves it here, so go figure.

[Assistant] Well, you're back to your, you're back to your source.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Kind of end this up with, they always. One of the questions, and it's just these are like the three general goals of the Peace Corps. And if you could just provide like experiences in your service that met the goals. I'll give you the first one, to provide technical assistance where requested. Well, I mean, I think it's been obvious.

[User] Yeah, we had midwife trainings, we had peer support of peer volunteers, peer educators trained for HIV prevention. We had children. I had one mother come and tell me the recipe for making rehydration solution that her preschooler had taught her. So, at different levels.

[Assistant] How about the second goal of to promote a better understanding of the United States? Well, your husband, I mean, he's.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Kind of end this up with, they always. One of the questions, and it's just these are like the three general goals of the Peace Corps. And if you could just provide like experiences in your service that met the goals. I'll give you the first one, to provide technical assistance where requested. Well, I mean, I think it's been obvious.

[User] Yeah, we had midwife trainings, we had peer support of peer volunteers, peer educators trained for HIV prevention. We had children. I had one mother come and tell me the recipe for making rehydration solution that her preschooler had taught her. So, at different levels.

[Assistant] How about the second goal of to promote a better understanding of the United States? Well, your husband, I mean, he's.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] He now has an understanding.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had midwife trainings, we had peer support of peer volunteers, peer educators trained for HIV prevention. We had children. I had one mother come and tell me the recipe for making rehydration solution that her preschooler had taught her. So, at different levels.

[Assistant] How about the second goal of to promote a better understanding of the United States? Well, your husband, I mean, he's.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] He now has an understanding.

[User] He does. And, uh. And I just, I think that. There was a volunteer who followed me and we met. She came to visit me in New Orleans and was able to tell me about my, the children who used to spend their free time on my porch or in my living room hanging out, listening to music and such. And they were, um, I don't know, not as surprised by her ways that they had been by mine. So in one very small way. But there were other very good exchanges that we had, especially with my students who were really open to learning about the world. And we had opportunities with my colleagues to really discuss our world views and understand our similar personalities and dissimilar personalities despite the cultural differences. So I feel like I was able to have a lot of authentic relationships with people and in that way they were able to learn about Americans being people.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And then I guess on the other hand, since you've been back, do you feel like you've been able to tell Americans more about the people in Africa or relate more? And then along with that, what kind of activities have you done in the promotion of that or that you think have been, you know, things that you would have maybe not done if you had never been in the Peace Corps, since you've been back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] He now has an understanding.

[User] He does. And, uh. And I just, I think that. There was a volunteer who followed me and we met. She came to visit me in New Orleans and was able to tell me about my, the children who used to spend their free time on my porch or in my living room hanging out, listening to music and such. And they were, um, I don't know, not as surprised by her ways that they had been by mine. So in one very small way. But there were other very good exchanges that we had, especially with my students who were really open to learning about the world. And we had opportunities with my colleagues to really discuss our world views and understand our similar personalities and dissimilar personalities despite the cultural differences. So I feel like I was able to have a lot of authentic relationships with people and in that way they were able to learn about Americans being people.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. And then I guess on the other hand, since you've been back, do you feel like you've been able to tell Americans more about the people in Africa or relate more? And then along with that, what kind of activities have you done in the promotion of that or that you think have been, you know, things that you would have maybe not done if you had never been in the Peace Corps, since you've been back?

[User] So how did I bring it home? I, well, I guess I've done a lot of classroom presentations, uh, from, I guess, very young kindergarten, first grade level up through college classrooms. I have presented different aspects of life in Africa. When I did my master's degree in public health, I did a lot of projects where I would focus on issues that I could share with my colleagues, my classmates. And raising my children. They have needed to understand a lot about their dad's culture and understand a lot about the differences between Guinea and Togo and rural and urban.

[Assistant] Have they visited?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So how did I bring it home? I, well, I guess I've done a lot of classroom presentations, uh, from, I guess, very young kindergarten, first grade level up through college classrooms. I have presented different aspects of life in Africa. When I did my master's degree in public health, I did a lot of projects where I would focus on issues that I could share with my colleagues, my classmates. And raising my children. They have needed to understand a lot about their dad's culture and understand a lot about the differences between Guinea and Togo and rural and urban.

[Assistant] Have they visited?

[User] They have been to Togo and visited with their family, their cousins and grandparents and everyone. And, um. And we do, uh, they then present on international days or whenever they can have a chance. And we do, our favorite pictures to start with are the high-rise buildings in the capital, because everyone's like, oh, Africa, it's all huts, you know? My pictures from Guinea might confirm that. So we lead with the. My husband grew up in Lomé, which is a larger city than Madison, so he didn't spend any time living in a village. So I'm kind of the hick between us, so.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that's something that people don't realize is that there's such a kind of a dichotomy within those countries. I mean, there's a very urban, sophisticated. They have every service. And then there's a rural component that is sometimes, you know, ages behind.

[User] That's so true.

[Assistant] And it just depends on where you land. So I guess you have two children?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They have been to Togo and visited with their family, their cousins and grandparents and everyone. And, um. And we do, uh, they then present on international days or whenever they can have a chance. And we do, our favorite pictures to start with are the high-rise buildings in the capital, because everyone's like, oh, Africa, it's all huts, you know? My pictures from Guinea might confirm that. So we lead with the. My husband grew up in Lomé, which is a larger city than Madison, so he didn't spend any time living in a village. So I'm kind of the hick between us, so.

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that's something that people don't realize is that there's such a kind of a dichotomy within those countries. I mean, there's a very urban, sophisticated. They have every service. And then there's a rural component that is sometimes, you know, ages behind.

[User] That's so true.

[Assistant] And it just depends on where you land. So I guess you have two children?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Maybe we could just end up on. They're, I think I've met them. Teenagers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's so true.

[Assistant] And it just depends on where you land. So I guess you have two children?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Maybe we could just end up on. They're, I think I've met them. Teenagers?

[User] They're, yes, they're adolescents. 14 and 12.

[Assistant] Okay. Have they, they have a concept of Peace Corps. Do you do you think that they are thinking of maybe that is a possibility, that they would someday serve in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Maybe we could just end up on. They're, I think I've met them. Teenagers?

[User] They're, yes, they're adolescents. 14 and 12.

[Assistant] Okay. Have they, they have a concept of Peace Corps. Do you do you think that they are thinking of maybe that is a possibility, that they would someday serve in the Peace Corps?

[User] Yes, they, I mean, I bring them to Peace Corps events. They are always receptive to coming along with me, for volunteering for fundraisers and Peace Corps parties and such. After our experience in Togo, my son is less eager, and my daughter speaks in terms of when I do Peace Corps. So I was promising them that when they do their service, I'll come with them. It'll be joyful for me. Although now, as they get older, I think they would probably not like that. They're not as comforted by that concept. They may want their space from mom, but, uh, I certainly encourage it. There are so many other ways that they can do international service now. So we'll see what the best option is for them when they're ready.

[Assistant] Any other, any other parting comments or it's, I think it's, we've covered a pretty good service in Africa.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Undergraduate degree was in philosophy from Loyola University in Chicago.

[Assistant] OK, and now let's go back a little further. You grew up in Chicago?

[User] Grew up in Chicago. Absolutely. I was born in 1942.

[Assistant] Large family?

[User] No very small family. Just my brother and I. My my parents were the first born in the United States in their respective families that their parents were were all from Poland. And we actually lived in the very same building with my maternal grandparents.

[Assistant] And so you grew up, went to parochial school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Grew up in Chicago. Absolutely. I was born in 1942.

[Assistant] Large family?

[User] No very small family. Just my brother and I. My my parents were the first born in the United States in their respective families that their parents were were all from Poland. And we actually lived in the very same building with my maternal grandparents.

[Assistant] And so you grew up, went to parochial school.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Through high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No very small family. Just my brother and I. My my parents were the first born in the United States in their respective families that their parents were were all from Poland. And we actually lived in the very same building with my maternal grandparents.

[Assistant] And so you grew up, went to parochial school.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Through high school?

[User] Through high school, and went to the Jesuit High School in Chicago. St. Ignatius.

[Assistant] Up through your high school graduation, had you done any extracurricular work, any volunteer work, any travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Through high school?

[User] Through high school, and went to the Jesuit High School in Chicago. St. Ignatius.

[Assistant] Up through your high school graduation, had you done any extracurricular work, any volunteer work, any travel?

[User] Up through high school, actually not.

[Assistant] Did you have to work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Through high school, and went to the Jesuit High School in Chicago. St. Ignatius.

[Assistant] Up through your high school graduation, had you done any extracurricular work, any volunteer work, any travel?

[User] Up through high school, actually not.

[Assistant] Did you have to work?

[User] Oh, I worked. My first job started in the sixth grade and I worked at the at the bingo game at the local parochial, you know, that probably at the local parochial church. And I worked every Friday night at bingo and I earned, you know, maybe maybe ten dollars on a night working there. And I worked all through high school. I worked during during college. I was a commuter student at undergraduate school. So, you know, I really never went away. The first time I was really living away was was when I went to graduate school at Georgetown.

[Assistant] But when you graduated high school, were you the first in the family to go into college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Up through high school, actually not.

[Assistant] Did you have to work?

[User] Oh, I worked. My first job started in the sixth grade and I worked at the at the bingo game at the local parochial, you know, that probably at the local parochial church. And I worked every Friday night at bingo and I earned, you know, maybe maybe ten dollars on a night working there. And I worked all through high school. I worked during during college. I was a commuter student at undergraduate school. So, you know, I really never went away. The first time I was really living away was was when I went to graduate school at Georgetown.

[Assistant] But when you graduated high school, were you the first in the family to go into college?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what was at that point? What kind of career goal did you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I worked. My first job started in the sixth grade and I worked at the at the bingo game at the local parochial, you know, that probably at the local parochial church. And I worked every Friday night at bingo and I earned, you know, maybe maybe ten dollars on a night working there. And I worked all through high school. I worked during during college. I was a commuter student at undergraduate school. So, you know, I really never went away. The first time I was really living away was was when I went to graduate school at Georgetown.

[Assistant] But when you graduated high school, were you the first in the family to go into college?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what was at that point? What kind of career goal did you have?

[User] You know, I really didn't know what my career goals were at the time. I was in a liberal arts program at Loyola University, which meant that I had to study both Latin and Greek the word requirements at the time for an AB. And I just I really don't know.

[Assistant] Was there any thought of becoming a priest?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what was at that point? What kind of career goal did you have?

[User] You know, I really didn't know what my career goals were at the time. I was in a liberal arts program at Loyola University, which meant that I had to study both Latin and Greek the word requirements at the time for an AB. And I just I really don't know.

[Assistant] Was there any thought of becoming a priest?

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely. In fact, after my I think it was after my first year in undergraduate school, I actually went off to a Jesuit seminary in Milford, Ohio, and I spent about a year and a half there and after being there for a year and a half, realized that it was not for me or came back and finished up my undergraduate degree at Loyola.

[Assistant] Well, when you graduated Loyola, we had you your plan was immediately to go to graduate school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I really didn't know what my career goals were at the time. I was in a liberal arts program at Loyola University, which meant that I had to study both Latin and Greek the word requirements at the time for an AB. And I just I really don't know.

[Assistant] Was there any thought of becoming a priest?

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely. In fact, after my I think it was after my first year in undergraduate school, I actually went off to a Jesuit seminary in Milford, Ohio, and I spent about a year and a half there and after being there for a year and a half, realized that it was not for me or came back and finished up my undergraduate degree at Loyola.

[Assistant] Well, when you graduated Loyola, we had you your plan was immediately to go to graduate school?

[User] It was in fact, ideally, my plan was to go to law school. And around the time of taking the law school admission test, my mother had been ill and hospitalized. And I must say, I did a terrible job on the LSAT when I took it, and that was back in 1963, I think it was. And because I got such a terrible score on the LSAT, I just decided that I was not going to apply to law school and instead apply to graduate school in international studies at Georgetown.

[Assistant] A couple of questions about as you were graduating or one, what was your relationship to the draft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, absolutely. In fact, after my I think it was after my first year in undergraduate school, I actually went off to a Jesuit seminary in Milford, Ohio, and I spent about a year and a half there and after being there for a year and a half, realized that it was not for me or came back and finished up my undergraduate degree at Loyola.

[Assistant] Well, when you graduated Loyola, we had you your plan was immediately to go to graduate school?

[User] It was in fact, ideally, my plan was to go to law school. And around the time of taking the law school admission test, my mother had been ill and hospitalized. And I must say, I did a terrible job on the LSAT when I took it, and that was back in 1963, I think it was. And because I got such a terrible score on the LSAT, I just decided that I was not going to apply to law school and instead apply to graduate school in international studies at Georgetown.

[Assistant] A couple of questions about as you were graduating or one, what was your relationship to the draft?

[User] When I was graduating from first degree, from my first degree.

[Assistant] Were you subject to being drafted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was in fact, ideally, my plan was to go to law school. And around the time of taking the law school admission test, my mother had been ill and hospitalized. And I must say, I did a terrible job on the LSAT when I took it, and that was back in 1963, I think it was. And because I got such a terrible score on the LSAT, I just decided that I was not going to apply to law school and instead apply to graduate school in international studies at Georgetown.

[Assistant] A couple of questions about as you were graduating or one, what was your relationship to the draft?

[User] When I was graduating from first degree, from my first degree.

[Assistant] Were you subject to being drafted?

[User] You know, I assume I would have been I, I really I must say, I did not give it much of a thought at that time. And and I think if I'm not mistaken, I think that when I was in graduate school, I think I was still getting a deferral, but I'm not positive about that. Not positive about that.

[Assistant] During your undergraduate years, a couple of questions. Had you heard about the Peace Corps? Did you know of anyone who joined the Peace Corps? What was your sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was graduating from first degree, from my first degree.

[Assistant] Were you subject to being drafted?

[User] You know, I assume I would have been I, I really I must say, I did not give it much of a thought at that time. And and I think if I'm not mistaken, I think that when I was in graduate school, I think I was still getting a deferral, but I'm not positive about that. Not positive about that.

[Assistant] During your undergraduate years, a couple of questions. Had you heard about the Peace Corps? Did you know of anyone who joined the Peace Corps? What was your sense?

[User] I, you know, I, I really did not in my undergraduate school years. I took one semester away and went to the I think it was called the oh, the Catholic University of Puerto Rico concept. And it was a language institute down there. And it was it was run by the Catholic Church. And it was really quite a good language school. And I lived with a Puerto Rican family in Ponce. And I think I did that in, let's say, September to December of 1963, I think it was. And I came back really being quite fluent in Spanish. The idea was that I was I was thinking about some sort of international work, even even back then. I just didn't know where. And this was an opportunity and I don't even remember who recommended it to me, but that's where I went.

[Assistant] And so by the time you finished your first degree, you had already lived in a different environment. You had studied a language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I assume I would have been I, I really I must say, I did not give it much of a thought at that time. And and I think if I'm not mistaken, I think that when I was in graduate school, I think I was still getting a deferral, but I'm not positive about that. Not positive about that.

[Assistant] During your undergraduate years, a couple of questions. Had you heard about the Peace Corps? Did you know of anyone who joined the Peace Corps? What was your sense?

[User] I, you know, I, I really did not in my undergraduate school years. I took one semester away and went to the I think it was called the oh, the Catholic University of Puerto Rico concept. And it was a language institute down there. And it was it was run by the Catholic Church. And it was really quite a good language school. And I lived with a Puerto Rican family in Ponce. And I think I did that in, let's say, September to December of 1963, I think it was. And I came back really being quite fluent in Spanish. The idea was that I was I was thinking about some sort of international work, even even back then. I just didn't know where. And this was an opportunity and I don't even remember who recommended it to me, but that's where I went.

[Assistant] And so by the time you finished your first degree, you had already lived in a different environment. You had studied a language.

[User] Absolutely. In fact, Bob, it's coming back to me now. Yeah. I believe that this training program was most of the people in the program were called I think the group was called PAVLA and it stood for Papal Volunteers to Latin America. Do you remember that name at all?

[Assistant] I mean, I've heard of papal volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, you know, I, I really did not in my undergraduate school years. I took one semester away and went to the I think it was called the oh, the Catholic University of Puerto Rico concept. And it was a language institute down there. And it was it was run by the Catholic Church. And it was really quite a good language school. And I lived with a Puerto Rican family in Ponce. And I think I did that in, let's say, September to December of 1963, I think it was. And I came back really being quite fluent in Spanish. The idea was that I was I was thinking about some sort of international work, even even back then. I just didn't know where. And this was an opportunity and I don't even remember who recommended it to me, but that's where I went.

[Assistant] And so by the time you finished your first degree, you had already lived in a different environment. You had studied a language.

[User] Absolutely. In fact, Bob, it's coming back to me now. Yeah. I believe that this training program was most of the people in the program were called I think the group was called PAVLA and it stood for Papal Volunteers to Latin America. Do you remember that name at all?

[Assistant] I mean, I've heard of papal volunteers.

[User] And it was made up of a group of there were nuns, there were priests and there were laypersons in the group. I was the only one who was not going down to be a volunteer in Latin America under the egis of PAVLA.

[Assistant] But that was acceptable to them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. In fact, Bob, it's coming back to me now. Yeah. I believe that this training program was most of the people in the program were called I think the group was called PAVLA and it stood for Papal Volunteers to Latin America. Do you remember that name at all?

[Assistant] I mean, I've heard of papal volunteers.

[User] And it was made up of a group of there were nuns, there were priests and there were laypersons in the group. I was the only one who was not going down to be a volunteer in Latin America under the egis of PAVLA.

[Assistant] But that was acceptable to them?

[User] That was acceptable to them. Yes, I was I was just able to enroll.

[Assistant] Come back to the question of knowing about the Peace Corps. I was certainly coming from a Catholic background. You must be keenly aware of Kennedy's presidency.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it was made up of a group of there were nuns, there were priests and there were laypersons in the group. I was the only one who was not going down to be a volunteer in Latin America under the egis of PAVLA.

[Assistant] But that was acceptable to them?

[User] That was acceptable to them. Yes, I was I was just able to enroll.

[Assistant] Come back to the question of knowing about the Peace Corps. I was certainly coming from a Catholic background. You must be keenly aware of Kennedy's presidency.

[User] Yes, no question about it. And, I must say, I think my experience down in Puerto Rico confirmed in me that I did not want to be a papal volunteer in Latin America. I thought it was more a gut sense. It was it was a bit much too religious for me, OK? And I just didn't feel comfortable in that setting. And I also heard great things about the training that the Peace Corps was doing and that moved both Mary and me in the direction of the Peace Corps. So we applied separately and.

[Assistant] Let's come back. OK, so after you finish your degree, you almost immediately go into graduate school, into Georgetown. And you were there for a year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was acceptable to them. Yes, I was I was just able to enroll.

[Assistant] Come back to the question of knowing about the Peace Corps. I was certainly coming from a Catholic background. You must be keenly aware of Kennedy's presidency.

[User] Yes, no question about it. And, I must say, I think my experience down in Puerto Rico confirmed in me that I did not want to be a papal volunteer in Latin America. I thought it was more a gut sense. It was it was a bit much too religious for me, OK? And I just didn't feel comfortable in that setting. And I also heard great things about the training that the Peace Corps was doing and that moved both Mary and me in the direction of the Peace Corps. So we applied separately and.

[Assistant] Let's come back. OK, so after you finish your degree, you almost immediately go into graduate school, into Georgetown. And you were there for a year?

[User] A year and a half, I think, for coursework.

[Assistant] OK, right. But you were coming here. You must have been near the end of your program even though you had your thesis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, no question about it. And, I must say, I think my experience down in Puerto Rico confirmed in me that I did not want to be a papal volunteer in Latin America. I thought it was more a gut sense. It was it was a bit much too religious for me, OK? And I just didn't feel comfortable in that setting. And I also heard great things about the training that the Peace Corps was doing and that moved both Mary and me in the direction of the Peace Corps. So we applied separately and.

[Assistant] Let's come back. OK, so after you finish your degree, you almost immediately go into graduate school, into Georgetown. And you were there for a year?

[User] A year and a half, I think, for coursework.

[Assistant] OK, right. But you were coming here. You must have been near the end of your program even though you had your thesis.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. Very much.

[Assistant] What was your plan at that point? Assuming you got the degree.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A year and a half, I think, for coursework.

[Assistant] OK, right. But you were coming here. You must have been near the end of your program even though you had your thesis.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. Very much.

[Assistant] What was your plan at that point? Assuming you got the degree.

[User] Probably to go on and get a Ph.D. OK, I think I think it was it was an academic track for me.

[Assistant] And so you hadn't opened up any other alternatives, like, well, if I don't get my degree, I'll do this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. Very much.

[Assistant] What was your plan at that point? Assuming you got the degree.

[User] Probably to go on and get a Ph.D. OK, I think I think it was it was an academic track for me.

[Assistant] And so you hadn't opened up any other alternatives, like, well, if I don't get my degree, I'll do this.

[User] Well, Mary and I had talked about it, and we certainly. Were of the mind that we wanted to take a shot at the at the Peace Corps and and ultimately we did.

[Assistant] So when did you marry, while you were in graduate school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably to go on and get a Ph.D. OK, I think I think it was it was an academic track for me.

[Assistant] And so you hadn't opened up any other alternatives, like, well, if I don't get my degree, I'll do this.

[User] Well, Mary and I had talked about it, and we certainly. Were of the mind that we wanted to take a shot at the at the Peace Corps and and ultimately we did.

[Assistant] So when did you marry, while you were in graduate school?

[User] No, I was out of graduate school. In fact, I'll tell you what. Yeah, our wedding was, I think, the weekend before Peace Corps training began at the University of Washington in Seattle. That's what I was going to married in Chicago, you know. And we got on a plane. We went to San Francisco for a couple of days and then we got on a plane and went to Seattle and began Peace Corps training. That was our honeymoon.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. So at some point when you were in the graduate program, you made the decision to apply for the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Mary and I had talked about it, and we certainly. Were of the mind that we wanted to take a shot at the at the Peace Corps and and ultimately we did.

[Assistant] So when did you marry, while you were in graduate school?

[User] No, I was out of graduate school. In fact, I'll tell you what. Yeah, our wedding was, I think, the weekend before Peace Corps training began at the University of Washington in Seattle. That's what I was going to married in Chicago, you know. And we got on a plane. We went to San Francisco for a couple of days and then we got on a plane and went to Seattle and began Peace Corps training. That was our honeymoon.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. So at some point when you were in the graduate program, you made the decision to apply for the Peace Corps.

[User] Absolutely. We both applied. I think we both got invitations to programs that were starting earlier than the time horizon I had for completing my work had gone successfully. I think one invitation was to the Philippines and then the invitation to Bolivia came along. Right. And the timing looked very good. And we both.

[Assistant] Had you expressed a preference on the application for assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was out of graduate school. In fact, I'll tell you what. Yeah, our wedding was, I think, the weekend before Peace Corps training began at the University of Washington in Seattle. That's what I was going to married in Chicago, you know. And we got on a plane. We went to San Francisco for a couple of days and then we got on a plane and went to Seattle and began Peace Corps training. That was our honeymoon.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. So at some point when you were in the graduate program, you made the decision to apply for the Peace Corps.

[User] Absolutely. We both applied. I think we both got invitations to programs that were starting earlier than the time horizon I had for completing my work had gone successfully. I think one invitation was to the Philippines and then the invitation to Bolivia came along. Right. And the timing looked very good. And we both.

[Assistant] Had you expressed a preference on the application for assignment?

[User] We did, yes, we did.

[Assistant] What was the preference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. We both applied. I think we both got invitations to programs that were starting earlier than the time horizon I had for completing my work had gone successfully. I think one invitation was to the Philippines and then the invitation to Bolivia came along. Right. And the timing looked very good. And we both.

[Assistant] Had you expressed a preference on the application for assignment?

[User] We did, yes, we did.

[Assistant] What was the preference?

[User] The preference, I think we could specify language preferences, if I'm not mistaken. And we both.

[Assistant] Area and language competency.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did, yes, we did.

[Assistant] What was the preference?

[User] The preference, I think we could specify language preferences, if I'm not mistaken. And we both.

[Assistant] Area and language competency.

[User] Language competency we put down was Spanish. And that's why I think the Philippines invitation came along and then Bolivia was the second invitation. And that's the one we accepted.

[Assistant] So you and Mary, you're now married, yet you applied at the invitation of Bolivia and you report to Washington University?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The preference, I think we could specify language preferences, if I'm not mistaken. And we both.

[Assistant] Area and language competency.

[User] Language competency we put down was Spanish. And that's why I think the Philippines invitation came along and then Bolivia was the second invitation. And that's the one we accepted.

[Assistant] So you and Mary, you're now married, yet you applied at the invitation of Bolivia and you report to Washington University?

[User] That's correct. Up in Seattle.

[Assistant] And the program was described as?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Language competency we put down was Spanish. And that's why I think the Philippines invitation came along and then Bolivia was the second invitation. And that's the one we accepted.

[Assistant] So you and Mary, you're now married, yet you applied at the invitation of Bolivia and you report to Washington University?

[User] That's correct. Up in Seattle.

[Assistant] And the program was described as?

[User] Rural community development. And our training program was shared with university educators that were going to Bolivia, Ecuador and Peru, if I'm not mistaken. So there were there were two side by side parallel track training programs.

[Assistant] Well, let's let's talk about the components of training and your experience. And one of the main components of training is course is language training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct. Up in Seattle.

[Assistant] And the program was described as?

[User] Rural community development. And our training program was shared with university educators that were going to Bolivia, Ecuador and Peru, if I'm not mistaken. So there were there were two side by side parallel track training programs.

[Assistant] Well, let's let's talk about the components of training and your experience. And one of the main components of training is course is language training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You want to describe that word?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rural community development. And our training program was shared with university educators that were going to Bolivia, Ecuador and Peru, if I'm not mistaken. So there were there were two side by side parallel track training programs.

[Assistant] Well, let's let's talk about the components of training and your experience. And one of the main components of training is course is language training.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You want to describe that word?

[User] Yes, I know. One of the things about the language training at Seattle was this. The Peace Corps had a couple of years of experience in Bolivia already, and the Peace Corps realized that training volunteers in Spanish only was not the way to go, particularly for rural community development. So the Peace Corps said it is essential for us to train people in Aymara, one of the Andean languages spoken in Bolivia. It would be Quechua if you went to Peru. But Aymara was the was the language in Bolivia. So we were told that our training program was going to be dual language, it was going to be Spanish and Aymara. And the way the program worked was this. Everyone had to get up to a certain level of competence in Spanish and then in effect, he would graduate to the Aymara, that’s the way it went. And they weren't looking for deep, deep competence before moving on to Aymara, but just enough. I was able to test out of that because of my Puerto Rican training. And really moved right into Aymara, which was fascinating because it is not a written language. There is no literature. This was the first time the Peace Corps was attempting this with Aymara. And what they did was to bring a few informants are from Bolivia.

[Assistant] Native Aymara speakers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You want to describe that word?

[User] Yes, I know. One of the things about the language training at Seattle was this. The Peace Corps had a couple of years of experience in Bolivia already, and the Peace Corps realized that training volunteers in Spanish only was not the way to go, particularly for rural community development. So the Peace Corps said it is essential for us to train people in Aymara, one of the Andean languages spoken in Bolivia. It would be Quechua if you went to Peru. But Aymara was the was the language in Bolivia. So we were told that our training program was going to be dual language, it was going to be Spanish and Aymara. And the way the program worked was this. Everyone had to get up to a certain level of competence in Spanish and then in effect, he would graduate to the Aymara, that’s the way it went. And they weren't looking for deep, deep competence before moving on to Aymara, but just enough. I was able to test out of that because of my Puerto Rican training. And really moved right into Aymara, which was fascinating because it is not a written language. There is no literature. This was the first time the Peace Corps was attempting this with Aymara. And what they did was to bring a few informants are from Bolivia.

[Assistant] Native Aymara speakers.

[User] Absolutely. In fact, I think to this day, tell them that Antonio Quispe, Q-U-I-S-P-E. I guess he was a I would say maybe a forty year old Bolivian from the Altiplano, and he was our principal instructor in Aymara.

[Assistant] How did they structure the language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I know. One of the things about the language training at Seattle was this. The Peace Corps had a couple of years of experience in Bolivia already, and the Peace Corps realized that training volunteers in Spanish only was not the way to go, particularly for rural community development. So the Peace Corps said it is essential for us to train people in Aymara, one of the Andean languages spoken in Bolivia. It would be Quechua if you went to Peru. But Aymara was the was the language in Bolivia. So we were told that our training program was going to be dual language, it was going to be Spanish and Aymara. And the way the program worked was this. Everyone had to get up to a certain level of competence in Spanish and then in effect, he would graduate to the Aymara, that’s the way it went. And they weren't looking for deep, deep competence before moving on to Aymara, but just enough. I was able to test out of that because of my Puerto Rican training. And really moved right into Aymara, which was fascinating because it is not a written language. There is no literature. This was the first time the Peace Corps was attempting this with Aymara. And what they did was to bring a few informants are from Bolivia.

[Assistant] Native Aymara speakers.

[User] Absolutely. In fact, I think to this day, tell them that Antonio Quispe, Q-U-I-S-P-E. I guess he was a I would say maybe a forty year old Bolivian from the Altiplano, and he was our principal instructor in Aymara.

[Assistant] How did they structure the language training?

[User] The language training was all based on the we are not going to speak Spanish. We're not going to speak English, are going to speak Aymara only.

[Assistant] How many hours a day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. In fact, I think to this day, tell them that Antonio Quispe, Q-U-I-S-P-E. I guess he was a I would say maybe a forty year old Bolivian from the Altiplano, and he was our principal instructor in Aymara.

[Assistant] How did they structure the language training?

[User] The language training was all based on the we are not going to speak Spanish. We're not going to speak English, are going to speak Aymara only.

[Assistant] How many hours a day?

[User] We probably spent eight hours a day.

[Assistant] I'm curious, then, how many will one how many people were in the training group approximately?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The language training was all based on the we are not going to speak Spanish. We're not going to speak English, are going to speak Aymara only.

[Assistant] How many hours a day?

[User] We probably spent eight hours a day.

[Assistant] I'm curious, then, how many will one how many people were in the training group approximately?

[User] I would say we were probably a group of I'm going to guess a little bit north of 20.

[Assistant] Backing you up a little bit. You and Mary reported to training. And there were about 20 of you, all of whom were going to Bolivia. OK, you remember your reaction to the rest others in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say we were probably a group of I'm going to guess a little bit north of 20.

[Assistant] Backing you up a little bit. You and Mary reported to training. And there were about 20 of you, all of whom were going to Bolivia. OK, you remember your reaction to the rest others in the group?

[User] I you know, it's I'm very glad you asked that question. That was the very first time in my life I had been in a generally pluralistic learning setting. When you think about it, it's quite shocking, actually. But I really came from a Catholic ghetto, right. In terms of education, because I started with the nuns, went to the Jesuits in high school, Jesuits in undergraduate school, Jesuits in graduate school. So this was the very first time the people were absolutely delightful, absolutely delightful. There were, I think, four married couples in our group.

[Assistant] That's high.

[User] Very high because the Peace Corps, I think, was at that point just not quite certain whether they were keen on having married couples or not a little betwixt and between. But this group had four and we hit it off. Well, I had a we had a delightful group. And interestingly enough, we had a a modern type election for the president of this group. And believe it or not, I was elected, but we had to follow the cultural rules of the primary election. And the idea is you get up and give a speech about why the people should not elect you, because that is the that is the cultural norm. You would you would get up and explain. You can't elect me because of this, this and the other thing. And I just did kind of a humorous take on that about why they should not. And lo and behold.

[Assistant] I'm curious about the 20, how many immediately qualified in Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I you know, it's I'm very glad you asked that question. That was the very first time in my life I had been in a generally pluralistic learning setting. When you think about it, it's quite shocking, actually. But I really came from a Catholic ghetto, right. In terms of education, because I started with the nuns, went to the Jesuits in high school, Jesuits in undergraduate school, Jesuits in graduate school. So this was the very first time the people were absolutely delightful, absolutely delightful. There were, I think, four married couples in our group.

[Assistant] That's high.

[User] Very high because the Peace Corps, I think, was at that point just not quite certain whether they were keen on having married couples or not a little betwixt and between. But this group had four and we hit it off. Well, I had a we had a delightful group. And interestingly enough, we had a a modern type election for the president of this group. And believe it or not, I was elected, but we had to follow the cultural rules of the primary election. And the idea is you get up and give a speech about why the people should not elect you, because that is the that is the cultural norm. You would you would get up and explain. You can't elect me because of this, this and the other thing. And I just did kind of a humorous take on that about why they should not. And lo and behold.

[Assistant] I'm curious about the 20, how many immediately qualified in Spanish?

[User] And I have a hard time recalling that. But I think many of the people came in with at least some knowledge in Spanish. For example, I never had any academic studies in in Spanish. Mine were only direct. I didn't know grammar rules at all. I just knew how to speak it. And many of the people there certainly knew the hard core grammar. They had a high school, maybe maybe college, and then they were picking up the linguistic side of it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you went straight into the Aymara stuff pretty quickly. How many other people were in that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very high because the Peace Corps, I think, was at that point just not quite certain whether they were keen on having married couples or not a little betwixt and between. But this group had four and we hit it off. Well, I had a we had a delightful group. And interestingly enough, we had a a modern type election for the president of this group. And believe it or not, I was elected, but we had to follow the cultural rules of the primary election. And the idea is you get up and give a speech about why the people should not elect you, because that is the that is the cultural norm. You would you would get up and explain. You can't elect me because of this, this and the other thing. And I just did kind of a humorous take on that about why they should not. And lo and behold.

[Assistant] I'm curious about the 20, how many immediately qualified in Spanish?

[User] And I have a hard time recalling that. But I think many of the people came in with at least some knowledge in Spanish. For example, I never had any academic studies in in Spanish. Mine were only direct. I didn't know grammar rules at all. I just knew how to speak it. And many of the people there certainly knew the hard core grammar. They had a high school, maybe maybe college, and then they were picking up the linguistic side of it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you went straight into the Aymara stuff pretty quickly. How many other people were in that?

[User] I would say at least a half dozen or so.

[Assistant] Ok, so you fair of third of the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I have a hard time recalling that. But I think many of the people came in with at least some knowledge in Spanish. For example, I never had any academic studies in in Spanish. Mine were only direct. I didn't know grammar rules at all. I just knew how to speak it. And many of the people there certainly knew the hard core grammar. They had a high school, maybe maybe college, and then they were picking up the linguistic side of it.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you went straight into the Aymara stuff pretty quickly. How many other people were in that?

[User] I would say at least a half dozen or so.

[Assistant] Ok, so you fair of third of the group?

[User] Yeah, OK. I would say a third of us did. And we sat in a semicircle with Mr. Quispe and he would just talk with us and he was really repeating what you hear and then trying to learn often. And of course language training consisted of working with the informant or the tutor for a while, working in the language lab before for another part of the day. So I would say this probably because it might have been for us maybe five hours a day with a live instructor and maybe three hours in our language lab.

[Assistant] Was there any indication from the training staff that you had to get up to a certain level in the language or you might be deselected or not go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say at least a half dozen or so.

[Assistant] Ok, so you fair of third of the group?

[User] Yeah, OK. I would say a third of us did. And we sat in a semicircle with Mr. Quispe and he would just talk with us and he was really repeating what you hear and then trying to learn often. And of course language training consisted of working with the informant or the tutor for a while, working in the language lab before for another part of the day. So I would say this probably because it might have been for us maybe five hours a day with a live instructor and maybe three hours in our language lab.

[Assistant] Was there any indication from the training staff that you had to get up to a certain level in the language or you might be deselected or not go?

[User] I never felt any pressure at all in terms of getting to a level and this the deselection know a deselection issue. In fact, I believe at that time the Peace Corps was almost moving away from deselection to this sort of self selection, where there would be a kind of a guided counseling abroad about what you were, what your future prospects might be and how people responded to that. So I. I never you know, it was not one of these things that you hear about in medical school where they say, look to the right, look to the left, the only one of you is going to go back. It wasn't anything like that. They did not make it a boot camp type experience.

[Assistant] Another component of training is area studies to learn about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, OK. I would say a third of us did. And we sat in a semicircle with Mr. Quispe and he would just talk with us and he was really repeating what you hear and then trying to learn often. And of course language training consisted of working with the informant or the tutor for a while, working in the language lab before for another part of the day. So I would say this probably because it might have been for us maybe five hours a day with a live instructor and maybe three hours in our language lab.

[Assistant] Was there any indication from the training staff that you had to get up to a certain level in the language or you might be deselected or not go?

[User] I never felt any pressure at all in terms of getting to a level and this the deselection know a deselection issue. In fact, I believe at that time the Peace Corps was almost moving away from deselection to this sort of self selection, where there would be a kind of a guided counseling abroad about what you were, what your future prospects might be and how people responded to that. So I. I never you know, it was not one of these things that you hear about in medical school where they say, look to the right, look to the left, the only one of you is going to go back. It wasn't anything like that. They did not make it a boot camp type experience.

[Assistant] Another component of training is area studies to learn about.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And any comments on that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never felt any pressure at all in terms of getting to a level and this the deselection know a deselection issue. In fact, I believe at that time the Peace Corps was almost moving away from deselection to this sort of self selection, where there would be a kind of a guided counseling abroad about what you were, what your future prospects might be and how people responded to that. So I. I never you know, it was not one of these things that you hear about in medical school where they say, look to the right, look to the left, the only one of you is going to go back. It wasn't anything like that. They did not make it a boot camp type experience.

[Assistant] Another component of training is area studies to learn about.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And any comments on that?

[User] Utterly superb. I can see him and I'm sorry, I can't remember his name, but he was a professor at the University of Washington. I think his name was Bill Clark, if I'm not mistaken, just one of the foremost guys in the area. He was he was terrific. The the cultural studies. I remember every Wednesday, we used to have a dance class. We were taught the Aymara dances, the wyno, the cuenca. And that would be the day. Wednesday was also the day we always got our shots. So you would you would you would dance your shots off in the evening with these dance classes. But the cultural studies, the historical studies, the current political situations and so on, very, very well done.

[Assistant] Oh, were there any, Peace Corps had been in Bolivia for a while?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] And any comments on that?

[User] Utterly superb. I can see him and I'm sorry, I can't remember his name, but he was a professor at the University of Washington. I think his name was Bill Clark, if I'm not mistaken, just one of the foremost guys in the area. He was he was terrific. The the cultural studies. I remember every Wednesday, we used to have a dance class. We were taught the Aymara dances, the wyno, the cuenca. And that would be the day. Wednesday was also the day we always got our shots. So you would you would you would dance your shots off in the evening with these dance classes. But the cultural studies, the historical studies, the current political situations and so on, very, very well done.

[Assistant] Oh, were there any, Peace Corps had been in Bolivia for a while?

[User] It had.

[Assistant] So, were there any returned volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Utterly superb. I can see him and I'm sorry, I can't remember his name, but he was a professor at the University of Washington. I think his name was Bill Clark, if I'm not mistaken, just one of the foremost guys in the area. He was he was terrific. The the cultural studies. I remember every Wednesday, we used to have a dance class. We were taught the Aymara dances, the wyno, the cuenca. And that would be the day. Wednesday was also the day we always got our shots. So you would you would you would dance your shots off in the evening with these dance classes. But the cultural studies, the historical studies, the current political situations and so on, very, very well done.

[Assistant] Oh, were there any, Peace Corps had been in Bolivia for a while?

[User] It had.

[Assistant] So, were there any returned volunteers?

[User] There were excellent returned volunteers. And at one time during the training, I believe that the the regional director under which we were going to work, his name was Nicky Mel Reagan and came up to Seattle and visited with us before we went down. We were going to be the first group that was going to go down to Bolivia, not having been sworn in as volunteers yet. We were going to have a month in country training in Bolivia with our Bolivian counterparts. We went out to an agricultural extension station.

[Assistant] We’ll get there. Yeah, OK, good. So I don't know. I think by the sixth year time they may have given up. The third component of training needs to be what they call the American studies, world affairs and communism. Just to be sure that you were aware of the very global picture, as you know, if you were challenged as a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It had.

[Assistant] So, were there any returned volunteers?

[User] There were excellent returned volunteers. And at one time during the training, I believe that the the regional director under which we were going to work, his name was Nicky Mel Reagan and came up to Seattle and visited with us before we went down. We were going to be the first group that was going to go down to Bolivia, not having been sworn in as volunteers yet. We were going to have a month in country training in Bolivia with our Bolivian counterparts. We went out to an agricultural extension station.

[Assistant] We’ll get there. Yeah, OK, good. So I don't know. I think by the sixth year time they may have given up. The third component of training needs to be what they call the American studies, world affairs and communism. Just to be sure that you were aware of the very global picture, as you know, if you were challenged as a volunteer?

[User] I I think there was a component of that. I must say it does not stand out in my mind. And I couldn't even begin to tell you the name of the instructor. Sure. But I'm sure it was there because we certainly did encounter challenges as soon as we arrived in Bolivia. I work on the world scene really at that time it was it was all about Vietnam.

[Assistant] Ok, yes, that was OK. So they so the most likely discussion in training about indeed India and particularly recall that I was saying, well, the proper way to deal with this is or was it just making you aware there's a difference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were excellent returned volunteers. And at one time during the training, I believe that the the regional director under which we were going to work, his name was Nicky Mel Reagan and came up to Seattle and visited with us before we went down. We were going to be the first group that was going to go down to Bolivia, not having been sworn in as volunteers yet. We were going to have a month in country training in Bolivia with our Bolivian counterparts. We went out to an agricultural extension station.

[Assistant] We’ll get there. Yeah, OK, good. So I don't know. I think by the sixth year time they may have given up. The third component of training needs to be what they call the American studies, world affairs and communism. Just to be sure that you were aware of the very global picture, as you know, if you were challenged as a volunteer?

[User] I I think there was a component of that. I must say it does not stand out in my mind. And I couldn't even begin to tell you the name of the instructor. Sure. But I'm sure it was there because we certainly did encounter challenges as soon as we arrived in Bolivia. I work on the world scene really at that time it was it was all about Vietnam.

[Assistant] Ok, yes, that was OK. So they so the most likely discussion in training about indeed India and particularly recall that I was saying, well, the proper way to deal with this is or was it just making you aware there's a difference?

[User] Yes, there is. I must say, Bob, I don't have much of a recollection of that. And I think I would I if it had been an offensive approach, I think I might have recalled. So I don't it does not stick in my minds.

[Assistant] Anything else about the training setting to the group of 20 must have become somewhat close.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were there for a long weekend, I think maybe three days or so.

[Assistant] And you were simply to find out as much as you could?

[User] Find out about the community, how information traveled in the. And I remember we we spent a good deal of time in one of the local bars, which was, you know, a very important meeting place in the community. And if you wanted to know what was going on, you had to spend some time at the bar. So it was it was a delightful experiment. And I thought it was an excellent idea when we got to Bolivia. We were prepared. And I think that is a tribute to the training program.

[Assistant] During training, you mentioned that the regional director came up to he or anyone else try to give you a sense of the work they are doing once he got to Bolivia?

[User] Yes. In fact, they were they they were first preparing us for the in-country training. They were they were telling us a bit about what we were going to experience there. And then they were also telling us about another Peace Corps experiment, which was going to be site self selection. And we were not going to be assigned to a community and told this is where we were going to be and explained to us that we were going to be given about 30 days after we became volunteers to travel wherever the rural community development program was working. And wherever there were potential counterparts living. And we were to make our own deal, in essence, and we were to get them to invite us to stay and we were to commit to stay because the Peace Corps wanted to try to reduce the turnover in volunteers coming back into the capital and saying, gee, you know, it's just not working out and they don't like me. And it's an interesting approach. So the the regional director prepared us for all of that. What we had to look forward to once we went down.

[Assistant] Let’s just finish up training. Did anyone resign during the period when many people selected?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Find out about the community, how information traveled in the. And I remember we we spent a good deal of time in one of the local bars, which was, you know, a very important meeting place in the community. And if you wanted to know what was going on, you had to spend some time at the bar. So it was it was a delightful experiment. And I thought it was an excellent idea when we got to Bolivia. We were prepared. And I think that is a tribute to the training program.

[Assistant] During training, you mentioned that the regional director came up to he or anyone else try to give you a sense of the work they are doing once he got to Bolivia?

[User] Yes. In fact, they were they they were first preparing us for the in-country training. They were they were telling us a bit about what we were going to experience there. And then they were also telling us about another Peace Corps experiment, which was going to be site self selection. And we were not going to be assigned to a community and told this is where we were going to be and explained to us that we were going to be given about 30 days after we became volunteers to travel wherever the rural community development program was working. And wherever there were potential counterparts living. And we were to make our own deal, in essence, and we were to get them to invite us to stay and we were to commit to stay because the Peace Corps wanted to try to reduce the turnover in volunteers coming back into the capital and saying, gee, you know, it's just not working out and they don't like me. And it's an interesting approach. So the the regional director prepared us for all of that. What we had to look forward to once we went down.

[Assistant] Let’s just finish up training. Did anyone resign during the period when many people selected?

[User] They think I think there there may have been one or two leaving during training, but I think the real fallout came once we got over here.

[Assistant] And one last thing before you leave the states. What was your status at that point with the draft or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They think I think there there may have been one or two leaving during training, but I think the real fallout came once we got over here.

[Assistant] And one last thing before you leave the states. What was your status at that point with the draft or?

[User] You know, I was I was one a I think all the way along, I guess I had to notify the local board that I was going into the Peace Corps and I don't know what classification they gave me.

[Assistant] Deferment.

[User] Is that what it is? But, you know, I don't remember these letters and numbers. I was 1-A I know that in terms of health and so on all the time.

[Assistant] And the assumption is your board was not required to, but they could give you a deferment for Peace Corps service and most boards did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I was I was one a I think all the way along, I guess I had to notify the local board that I was going into the Peace Corps and I don't know what classification they gave me.

[Assistant] Deferment.

[User] Is that what it is? But, you know, I don't remember these letters and numbers. I was 1-A I know that in terms of health and so on all the time.

[Assistant] And the assumption is your board was not required to, but they could give you a deferment for Peace Corps service and most boards did.

[User] Ok, and I guess my board did as we went down.

[Assistant] So that wasn't in your mind, particularly as as an issue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that what it is? But, you know, I don't remember these letters and numbers. I was 1-A I know that in terms of health and so on all the time.

[Assistant] And the assumption is your board was not required to, but they could give you a deferment for Peace Corps service and most boards did.

[User] Ok, and I guess my board did as we went down.

[Assistant] So that wasn't in your mind, particularly as as an issue?

[User] It was not an issue at all. No. No.

[Assistant] Did you have home leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, and I guess my board did as we went down.

[Assistant] So that wasn't in your mind, particularly as as an issue?

[User] It was not an issue at all. No. No.

[Assistant] Did you have home leave?

[User] We did. We had it we had a brief home leave to to get some gear together and so on. And then I think

[Assistant] Was Mary from Chicago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was not an issue at all. No. No.

[Assistant] Did you have home leave?

[User] We did. We had it we had a brief home leave to to get some gear together and so on. And then I think

[Assistant] Was Mary from Chicago?

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Her parents were at the point when you're on home leave. What was the response of the families? Anyone say don't go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. We had it we had a brief home leave to to get some gear together and so on. And then I think

[Assistant] Was Mary from Chicago?

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Her parents were at the point when you're on home leave. What was the response of the families? Anyone say don't go?

[User] But both families thought we were absolutely stone cold nuts for doing this. Mary was an only child, so her parents were particularly apprehensive about this. They thought it was just just wacko for us to be doing what we were doing. But while they would express their opinion, there was never any effort made to stop us. There was no bribery. There was no there were no threats. You know, if you go, we'll never speak again. You know, none of that stuff.

[Assistant] And Mary was as committed to going as you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, absolutely.

[Assistant] Her parents were at the point when you're on home leave. What was the response of the families? Anyone say don't go?

[User] But both families thought we were absolutely stone cold nuts for doing this. Mary was an only child, so her parents were particularly apprehensive about this. They thought it was just just wacko for us to be doing what we were doing. But while they would express their opinion, there was never any effort made to stop us. There was no bribery. There was no there were no threats. You know, if you go, we'll never speak again. You know, none of that stuff.

[Assistant] And Mary was as committed to going as you were.

[User] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Assistant] Because sometimes there’s a.