[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] —the point is, that you had brought up earlier, about how after we went to the Moon it was all over for you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in many ways, it was for the American public. I remember Chris Kraft telling me once that he knew it was all over when he looked at his little monitor in Mission Control and we were driving on the Moon for the first time. And he looked over at the networks, and they were all still showing soap operas.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And he knew it was over.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in many ways, it was for the American public. I remember Chris Kraft telling me once that he knew it was all over when he looked at his little monitor in Mission Control and we were driving on the Moon for the first time. And he looked over at the networks, and they were all still showing soap operas.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And he knew it was over.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You know, as it wound down so quickly after that, and no one’s been back since, you know, what were your thoughts as the program closed out completely? And I know you weren’t even with NASA anymore when it happened.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And he knew it was over.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You know, as it wound down so quickly after that, and no one’s been back since, you know, what were your thoughts as the program closed out completely? And I know you weren’t even with NASA anymore when it happened.

[User] Well, I think that NASA remains a very important—a very important entity in our—in the country’s future. And I think it’s important, extremely important that we have this continually grasping, grasping, looking for things. I lose it when we talked about colonizing the Moon and all the other baloney that you read about. We’re going to mine—once we’re going to mine oxygen and—I just don’t have that belief. I—maybe I’m too practical. I don’t think that’s ever going to happen.\n\n So, I was with NASA with the objective of being part of the team that beat the Russians to the Moon. We did that. And that, you know, I thought the other flights were just as dangerous, just as—and probably much more adventurous and brought back much more knowledge of the Moon. I just don’t happen to be interested in that. I’m not going to lie to you.

[Assistant] Do you think we’ll go back to the Moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] You know, as it wound down so quickly after that, and no one’s been back since, you know, what were your thoughts as the program closed out completely? And I know you weren’t even with NASA anymore when it happened.

[User] Well, I think that NASA remains a very important—a very important entity in our—in the country’s future. And I think it’s important, extremely important that we have this continually grasping, grasping, looking for things. I lose it when we talked about colonizing the Moon and all the other baloney that you read about. We’re going to mine—once we’re going to mine oxygen and—I just don’t have that belief. I—maybe I’m too practical. I don’t think that’s ever going to happen.\n\n So, I was with NASA with the objective of being part of the team that beat the Russians to the Moon. We did that. And that, you know, I thought the other flights were just as dangerous, just as—and probably much more adventurous and brought back much more knowledge of the Moon. I just don’t happen to be interested in that. I’m not going to lie to you.

[Assistant] Do you think we’ll go back to the Moon?

[User] I’m certain we’ll go back to the Moon someday. And I suspect someday there’ll be a permanent scientific base on the Moon like there is at South America—South—the South Pole, Antarctica. But I have a hard time understanding how we’re going to have apartments on the Moon.

[Assistant]
How are we for tape?\n\n VOICE OFF CAMERA: We’re doing fine.

Okay.\n\n Voice off camera: Would you like some more water?

I just want to stop at a good place.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think that NASA remains a very important—a very important entity in our—in the country’s future. And I think it’s important, extremely important that we have this continually grasping, grasping, looking for things. I lose it when we talked about colonizing the Moon and all the other baloney that you read about. We’re going to mine—once we’re going to mine oxygen and—I just don’t have that belief. I—maybe I’m too practical. I don’t think that’s ever going to happen.\n\n So, I was with NASA with the objective of being part of the team that beat the Russians to the Moon. We did that. And that, you know, I thought the other flights were just as dangerous, just as—and probably much more adventurous and brought back much more knowledge of the Moon. I just don’t happen to be interested in that. I’m not going to lie to you.

[Assistant] Do you think we’ll go back to the Moon?

[User] I’m certain we’ll go back to the Moon someday. And I suspect someday there’ll be a permanent scientific base on the Moon like there is at South America—South—the South Pole, Antarctica. But I have a hard time understanding how we’re going to have apartments on the Moon.

[Assistant]
How are we for tape?\n\n VOICE OFF CAMERA: We’re doing fine.

Okay.\n\n Voice off camera: Would you like some more water?

I just want to stop at a good place.

[User] I’m fine.\n\n [Break]\n\n VOICE OFF CAMERA: All right. Recording again.

[Assistant] Okay. Let’s talk about the Apollo Program closing out and making the decision. Did you really make the decision to leave before you even did Apollo 8?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m fine.\n\n [Break]\n\n VOICE OFF CAMERA: All right. Recording again.

[Assistant] Okay. Let’s talk about the Apollo Program closing out and making the decision. Did you really make the decision to leave before you even did Apollo 8?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Why?

[User] Well, as I said: I thought that I had carried my end of the bargain. I’d done—contributed as much as I possibly could. I wasn’t a pro on the LM. It would have taken me longer to learn it. And like I said: I would not have gone to the Moon after the first one. To me, it wasn’t worth it. It wasn’t worth assuming the risks because I wasn’t inclined to go pick up rocks.

[Assistant] A few little things from your missions. I don’t know if this is safe to say, but I know that you had space adaptation sickness on Apollo 8. Right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] Why?

[User] Well, as I said: I thought that I had carried my end of the bargain. I’d done—contributed as much as I possibly could. I wasn’t a pro on the LM. It would have taken me longer to learn it. And like I said: I would not have gone to the Moon after the first one. To me, it wasn’t worth it. It wasn’t worth assuming the risks because I wasn’t inclined to go pick up rocks.

[Assistant] A few little things from your missions. I don’t know if this is safe to say, but I know that you had space adaptation sickness on Apollo 8. Right?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] —Not on Gemini. Or did you have it on Gemini?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as I said: I thought that I had carried my end of the bargain. I’d done—contributed as much as I possibly could. I wasn’t a pro on the LM. It would have taken me longer to learn it. And like I said: I would not have gone to the Moon after the first one. To me, it wasn’t worth it. It wasn’t worth assuming the risks because I wasn’t inclined to go pick up rocks.

[Assistant] A few little things from your missions. I don’t know if this is safe to say, but I know that you had space adaptation sickness on Apollo 8. Right?

[User] I did.

[Assistant] —Not on Gemini. Or did you have it on Gemini?

[User] No, we never had a thing on Gemini.

[Assistant] Okay. But on Apollo 8. I mean, it’s safe to say that—I guess, were you the first person to get sick in space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did.

[Assistant] —Not on Gemini. Or did you have it on Gemini?

[User] No, we never had a thing on Gemini.

[Assistant] Okay. But on Apollo 8. I mean, it’s safe to say that—I guess, were you the first person to get sick in space?

[User] Oh I don’t know whether I was or not. But—and at the time I didn’t know it was motion sickness.

[Assistant] But you thought it might be the flu. And they actually considered your worst fear, which is shortening the mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we never had a thing on Gemini.

[Assistant] Okay. But on Apollo 8. I mean, it’s safe to say that—I guess, were you the first person to get sick in space?

[User] Oh I don’t know whether I was or not. But—and at the time I didn’t know it was motion sickness.

[Assistant] But you thought it might be the flu. And they actually considered your worst fear, which is shortening the mission.

[User] Yeah, well, but that’s another example. You know the damn doctor’s (what?) 100,000 miles away; he doesn’t know what’s going on. And I got over it very rapidly. And Jim and Bill both told me that they felt queasy, too, when they started moving around. And I threw up a couple of times, and it was over with. It wasn’t a big deal.

[Assistant] Well, and now it’s so common. I mean, it’s like half the people—.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I gather some people just don’t get over it.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But I didn’t have any trouble with it. Well, I—somebody said that Glenn puked when he got back, too. I don’t know.

[Assistant] He did.

[User] Yeah?

[Assistant] He admitted that he did, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah?

[Assistant] He admitted that he did, yeah.

[User] I don’t know why he would do it on reentry, but you would think maybe in space you might. I don’t know.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But it wasn’t a factor.

[Assistant] Was it was certainly uncomfortable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know why he would do it on reentry, but you would think maybe in space you might. I don’t know.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But it wasn’t a factor.

[Assistant] Was it was certainly uncomfortable.

[User] Well, nobody likes to throw up.

[Assistant] But it was short-term.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it wasn’t a factor.

[Assistant] Was it was certainly uncomfortable.

[User] Well, nobody likes to throw up.

[Assistant] But it was short-term.

[User] Short-term. I thought I had never—take—I don’t take pills if I don’t have to, and I had taken a Secanol and I thought it was a reaction. I honestly didn’t think it was motion sickness because we had been for 14 days in that space and never had any trouble, because we had worked—we couldn’t move around in Gemini.

[Assistant] So you might not have affected your inner ear as much. When you—when Jim Lovell (and you talked about your crew, how you said you didn’t want “us” to mess anything up)—a couple of the stories that I want to check the facts and have you reflect and tell stories.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, nobody likes to throw up.

[Assistant] But it was short-term.

[User] Short-term. I thought I had never—take—I don’t take pills if I don’t have to, and I had taken a Secanol and I thought it was a reaction. I honestly didn’t think it was motion sickness because we had been for 14 days in that space and never had any trouble, because we had worked—we couldn’t move around in Gemini.

[Assistant] So you might not have affected your inner ear as much. When you—when Jim Lovell (and you talked about your crew, how you said you didn’t want “us” to mess anything up)—a couple of the stories that I want to check the facts and have you reflect and tell stories.

[User] Okay. Right.

[Assistant] Jim Lovell inflates his life vest, because he’s—and he says, he’ll “never forget the disgusted look” you gave him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Short-term. I thought I had never—take—I don’t take pills if I don’t have to, and I had taken a Secanol and I thought it was a reaction. I honestly didn’t think it was motion sickness because we had been for 14 days in that space and never had any trouble, because we had worked—we couldn’t move around in Gemini.

[Assistant] So you might not have affected your inner ear as much. When you—when Jim Lovell (and you talked about your crew, how you said you didn’t want “us” to mess anything up)—a couple of the stories that I want to check the facts and have you reflect and tell stories.

[User] Okay. Right.

[Assistant] Jim Lovell inflates his life vest, because he’s—and he says, he’ll “never forget the disgusted look” you gave him.

[User] [laughs] Well, that’s true. [laughs]

[Assistant] What did he do? And what did you think when that happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Right.

[Assistant] Jim Lovell inflates his life vest, because he’s—and he says, he’ll “never forget the disgusted look” you gave him.

[User] [laughs] Well, that’s true. [laughs]

[Assistant] What did he do? And what did you think when that happened?

[User] Well, it wasn’t a big deal. But, you know, again, it was an anomaly. [laughs] And Lovell, as I recall, he squirted it out the urine dump system or something so we didn’t get too much CO2 in the cabin. But that—the worst thing he did was he fouled up the computer!

[Assistant] When did he do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [laughs] Well, that’s true. [laughs]

[Assistant] What did he do? And what did you think when that happened?

[User] Well, it wasn’t a big deal. But, you know, again, it was an anomaly. [laughs] And Lovell, as I recall, he squirted it out the urine dump system or something so we didn’t get too much CO2 in the cabin. But that—the worst thing he did was he fouled up the computer!

[Assistant] When did he do that?

[User] Oh he did that, I think, we were either around the Moon—in or around the Moon. He hit the wrong number on the computer, the wrong button, and had the spacecraft think it was back on the launch pad. And we had to reinitialize everything again for the reentry! All—they read up stuff, and we had to re—we had to refill all the memory.

[Assistant] It’s a good thing you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it wasn’t a big deal. But, you know, again, it was an anomaly. [laughs] And Lovell, as I recall, he squirted it out the urine dump system or something so we didn’t get too much CO2 in the cabin. But that—the worst thing he did was he fouled up the computer!

[Assistant] When did he do that?

[User] Oh he did that, I think, we were either around the Moon—in or around the Moon. He hit the wrong number on the computer, the wrong button, and had the spacecraft think it was back on the launch pad. And we had to reinitialize everything again for the reentry! All—they read up stuff, and we had to re—we had to refill all the memory.

[Assistant] It’s a good thing you—

[User] He was getting tired!

[Assistant] —it’s a good thing he made those mistakes on your flight, and then he was ready for Apollo 13 then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh he did that, I think, we were either around the Moon—in or around the Moon. He hit the wrong number on the computer, the wrong button, and had the spacecraft think it was back on the launch pad. And we had to reinitialize everything again for the reentry! All—they read up stuff, and we had to re—we had to refill all the memory.

[Assistant] It’s a good thing you—

[User] He was getting tired!

[Assistant] —it’s a good thing he made those mistakes on your flight, and then he was ready for Apollo 13 then.

[User] Boy, I’ll tell you what: I think the only person that hasn’t made a mistake was crucified about 2000 years ago. Everybody’s going to make a mistake. Everybody’s going to have a day when they wish they didn’t. So you just have to plan not to make it bad. And Lovell didn’t have any bad mistakes. He did a great job. He’s—he could whip that computer like you couldn’t believe it.

[Assistant] We talked about how, you know, some astronauts like Wally Schirra being famous for their jokes and their pranks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was getting tired!

[Assistant] —it’s a good thing he made those mistakes on your flight, and then he was ready for Apollo 13 then.

[User] Boy, I’ll tell you what: I think the only person that hasn’t made a mistake was crucified about 2000 years ago. Everybody’s going to make a mistake. Everybody’s going to have a day when they wish they didn’t. So you just have to plan not to make it bad. And Lovell didn’t have any bad mistakes. He did a great job. He’s—he could whip that computer like you couldn’t believe it.

[Assistant] We talked about how, you know, some astronauts like Wally Schirra being famous for their jokes and their pranks.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were you ever a recipient? I mean, did they play jokes on you? Do you remember any of them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boy, I’ll tell you what: I think the only person that hasn’t made a mistake was crucified about 2000 years ago. Everybody’s going to make a mistake. Everybody’s going to have a day when they wish they didn’t. So you just have to plan not to make it bad. And Lovell didn’t have any bad mistakes. He did a great job. He’s—he could whip that computer like you couldn’t believe it.

[Assistant] We talked about how, you know, some astronauts like Wally Schirra being famous for their jokes and their pranks.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Were you ever a recipient? I mean, did they play jokes on you? Do you remember any of them?

[User] I don’t remember much about it. I—to be honest with you, I’m sure I was a participant in some of them, but I don’t—they don’t remember—I don’t remember that.

[Assistant] Did you didn’t really take part, though, in flying jokes? Like on Guenter Wendt or—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t remember much about it. I—to be honest with you, I’m sure I was a participant in some of them, but I don’t—they don’t remember—I don’t remember that.

[Assistant] Did you didn’t really take part, though, in flying jokes? Like on Guenter Wendt or—

[User] No.

[Assistant] No.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And why not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And why not?

[User] It’s just not my nature. You know, I enjoy Wally and his wife and Jo and Susan and I went for 30 days around the Far East on a good will tour in the—in a 707 without windows. And Wally, I think, is great; and I think he contributed enormously to the program. More than any of the other first seven, Wally Schirra and Deke Slayton did the job. But he just is a different person [laughs] than I am from that standpoint.

[Assistant] What were some of the technicians, the engineers, and the managers behind the scene who you felt really made noteworthy contributions, that are—their names are worth being mentioned. And tell us stories about them and your interaction with them, and why you single them out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And why not?

[User] It’s just not my nature. You know, I enjoy Wally and his wife and Jo and Susan and I went for 30 days around the Far East on a good will tour in the—in a 707 without windows. And Wally, I think, is great; and I think he contributed enormously to the program. More than any of the other first seven, Wally Schirra and Deke Slayton did the job. But he just is a different person [laughs] than I am from that standpoint.

[Assistant] What were some of the technicians, the engineers, and the managers behind the scene who you felt really made noteworthy contributions, that are—their names are worth being mentioned. And tell us stories about them and your interaction with them, and why you single them out.

[User] Well, if you have—if I have to go back in the people that made NASA work, you start with Jim Webb. Okay? He was—he’s not an engineer. Then you go down the line to people like Gilruth and Kraft, Slayton, [Kurt H.] Debus, von Braun. I’m sure I’ll leave some—left some—Low. My goodness. How could you leave George Low [out]? These were all the giants that made it work.\n\n On the other hand, there were just hundreds of—well, thousands of people that cared, that knew what they were going to—that their one goal in life was to do their job and do it perfectly. And they’re the George Pages, the Aaron Cohen, Doug [Douglas R.] Broome. You could just go on and on and on with people at a lower level of management who were motivated. Who cared. And you know their contributions were what made it work. They’re the ones that made it work. And they weren’t just all at NASA. They were just as motivated in all the contractors, too.

[Assistant] Any stories that stand out? You told us your story about Jim Webb and riding in the car with him. Any stories about Chris Kraft? I mean, he’s legendary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I did Deke—I think it’s fortunate that the doctors took him off flight status, because he had the integrity and the dedication to run that Flight Operations—Flight Crew Operations Division with integrity and in a way that makes sense. So I think—and Deke, you know, so he didn’t blow up and leave or any—he just stayed there and did his job. He was committed. He was one of the great people in the program.

[Assistant]
So, you mean it’s fortunate that he—\n\n Borman; Fortunate for the program.

—fortunate that he was kept on the ground?

[User] Yeah. Fortunate that he was kept on the ground. I really believe that. You know, if you ask me where I think I contributed the most to the Apollo Program: I think I contributed the most to the Apollo Program out in Downey, California, as part of the redefinition team, not as an astronaut on Apollo 8. I think I contributed more to the program there than it’s a strange part of our society. All attention is on the celebrities (who happen to be the astronauts). And, you know, I don’t care what you say: there’s nobody that flew that did as much for the program as George Low or Chris Kraft. You could go down the line. But they didn’t get all the hoopla.

[Assistant] What do you think was the most challenging milestone of your career then? That—your time at Downey, or—?

[User] The time at Downey was the most challenging, I think. We had a lot of balls in the air there. And we—I think that our team out there did a really important job.

[Assistant] Did you—when you left NASA, were there—what did you draw on from your NASA experience to go on to your experience at Eastern?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Fortunate that he was kept on the ground. I really believe that. You know, if you ask me where I think I contributed the most to the Apollo Program: I think I contributed the most to the Apollo Program out in Downey, California, as part of the redefinition team, not as an astronaut on Apollo 8. I think I contributed more to the program there than it’s a strange part of our society. All attention is on the celebrities (who happen to be the astronauts). And, you know, I don’t care what you say: there’s nobody that flew that did as much for the program as George Low or Chris Kraft. You could go down the line. But they didn’t get all the hoopla.

[Assistant] What do you think was the most challenging milestone of your career then? That—your time at Downey, or—?

[User] The time at Downey was the most challenging, I think. We had a lot of balls in the air there. And we—I think that our team out there did a really important job.

[Assistant] Did you—when you left NASA, were there—what did you draw on from your NASA experience to go on to your experience at Eastern?

[User] Well, I tried to draw on the management style that I’d seen at NASA which was, to me, the most effective management team this country’s ever produced, and the most effective management style. And I still think it is.

[Assistant] Are there any things that stand out, you know, from any of your time at NASA that—any stories that you think, “Oh I need to tell these stories. I need to get these stories on the record.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The time at Downey was the most challenging, I think. We had a lot of balls in the air there. And we—I think that our team out there did a really important job.

[Assistant] Did you—when you left NASA, were there—what did you draw on from your NASA experience to go on to your experience at Eastern?

[User] Well, I tried to draw on the management style that I’d seen at NASA which was, to me, the most effective management team this country’s ever produced, and the most effective management style. And I still think it is.

[Assistant] Are there any things that stand out, you know, from any of your time at NASA that—any stories that you think, “Oh I need to tell these stories. I need to get these stories on the record.”

[User] Well, I have a—I—well, you know, after the fire—when I went out there—I never will forget Mr. Webb, in his very nice way, managed to change the management at North American (as you know). When I sat out there with the North American people and Bill Bergen came in and said, you know, “Look around to your left and your right because a lot of you aren’t going to be here in a week.” [chuckles] There wasn’t any touchy-feely kind of crap. It was just “Let’s get the job done. We got to get it done.” So—\n\n And there was another very traumatic time in an office when—after the fire, when one of the really respected civilian—contractor people had a nervous breakdown, and they had to haul him away in a straitjacket.

[Assistant] Somebody you can name, or—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I tried to draw on the management style that I’d seen at NASA which was, to me, the most effective management team this country’s ever produced, and the most effective management style. And I still think it is.

[Assistant] Are there any things that stand out, you know, from any of your time at NASA that—any stories that you think, “Oh I need to tell these stories. I need to get these stories on the record.”

[User] Well, I have a—I—well, you know, after the fire—when I went out there—I never will forget Mr. Webb, in his very nice way, managed to change the management at North American (as you know). When I sat out there with the North American people and Bill Bergen came in and said, you know, “Look around to your left and your right because a lot of you aren’t going to be here in a week.” [chuckles] There wasn’t any touchy-feely kind of crap. It was just “Let’s get the job done. We got to get it done.” So—\n\n And there was another very traumatic time in an office when—after the fire, when one of the really respected civilian—contractor people had a nervous breakdown, and they had to haul him away in a straitjacket.

[Assistant] Somebody you can name, or—?

[User] I don’t think you ought to name him because, you know, he’s since recovered and played a very important role. But he started drawing a organizational chart of Heaven. And I never will forget—I forgot he had Big Daddy. And then he was—when he just lost it all. And you know, the—poor Joe [Joseph P.] Shea lost it. But it was—I was very at home there because the overriding goal and the mission drove things. And it was—to me, it was a very worthwhile mission.

[Assistant] The—one of the things that some people have said that from that era when they look now at the space program, that now so many people sign off on things, that the responsibility is so watered down that no one’s responsible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think you ought to name him because, you know, he’s since recovered and played a very important role. But he started drawing a organizational chart of Heaven. And I never will forget—I forgot he had Big Daddy. And then he was—when he just lost it all. And you know, the—poor Joe [Joseph P.] Shea lost it. But it was—I was very at home there because the overriding goal and the mission drove things. And it was—to me, it was a very worthwhile mission.

[Assistant] The—one of the things that some people have said that from that era when they look now at the space program, that now so many people sign off on things, that the responsibility is so watered down that no one’s responsible.

[User] Can you believe that they could get one flight plan today with one man, Chris Kraft, making the decision? I can’t. I don’t know much about NASA today, but I just can’t believe that would happen.

[Assistant] No.

[User] And when I left NASA and went to Eastern, you know, I just—I don’t think you can keep one foot on the beach and one foot in the boat. So I got off the beach and went on the boat, which was Eastern; and I never looked back much to see what went on at NASA. And I—last thing I ever wanted to be was a professional astronaut. As you know, there are some around. And so I’m not competent to really analyze current NASA. But a lot of the old-timers that stayed on afterward have told me or written me or called me and said, “God, you can’t believe what it’s like now.”

[Assistant] Well, what let you go and do—you know, so many people (and I don’t want to say “so many”)—but you’re right. That spaceflight—there’s this sense that it changes you somehow. That, you know, you have this experience and you’re not the same and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And when I left NASA and went to Eastern, you know, I just—I don’t think you can keep one foot on the beach and one foot in the boat. So I got off the beach and went on the boat, which was Eastern; and I never looked back much to see what went on at NASA. And I—last thing I ever wanted to be was a professional astronaut. As you know, there are some around. And so I’m not competent to really analyze current NASA. But a lot of the old-timers that stayed on afterward have told me or written me or called me and said, “God, you can’t believe what it’s like now.”

[Assistant] Well, what let you go and do—you know, so many people (and I don’t want to say “so many”)—but you’re right. That spaceflight—there’s this sense that it changes you somehow. That, you know, you have this experience and you’re not the same and—

[User] Well, I don’t understand that. To me it was a—look: Apollo 8 was a definite success. It was a dangerous mission. But while I was doing that, guys were flying to Hanoi [North Vietnam] with 105s, in F-105s. Now tell me: I figured that the risks were about the same. And we got all focused on going to the Moon. You know, it was interesting. Looking back at the Earth was inspiring. But, you know, you go to the Grand Canyon and look around I find beauty looking out here in this (what you call)—the barren desert! I think you either have an innate belief in a Spiritual Being or a God or you don’t have. You don’t have to go to the Moon to—you know.

[Assistant] Well, but some people come back; and, you know, Buzz Aldrin has talked a lot about how he had a rough time after the Moon. You know, you could say—

[User] He had a very rough time. Buzz had a very difficult childhood. And Buzz, unfortunately, I don’t think has recovered.

[Assistant] And knowing that, it has been hard for him to go on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don’t understand that. To me it was a—look: Apollo 8 was a definite success. It was a dangerous mission. But while I was doing that, guys were flying to Hanoi [North Vietnam] with 105s, in F-105s. Now tell me: I figured that the risks were about the same. And we got all focused on going to the Moon. You know, it was interesting. Looking back at the Earth was inspiring. But, you know, you go to the Grand Canyon and look around I find beauty looking out here in this (what you call)—the barren desert! I think you either have an innate belief in a Spiritual Being or a God or you don’t have. You don’t have to go to the Moon to—you know.

[Assistant] Well, but some people come back; and, you know, Buzz Aldrin has talked a lot about how he had a rough time after the Moon. You know, you could say—

[User] He had a very rough time. Buzz had a very difficult childhood. And Buzz, unfortunately, I don’t think has recovered.

[Assistant] And knowing that, it has been hard for him to go on.

[User] Very tough.

[Assistant] I mean, what let you go on and have, like, this life after—I mean, there’s—I bet there’s people who know you as the head of Eastern Airlines who may not have ever known. I mean, people of a younger generation. I mean, the fact that you had success outside of (as you said) being “a professional astronaut,” what let you do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He had a very rough time. Buzz had a very difficult childhood. And Buzz, unfortunately, I don’t think has recovered.

[Assistant] And knowing that, it has been hard for him to go on.

[User] Very tough.

[Assistant] I mean, what let you go on and have, like, this life after—I mean, there’s—I bet there’s people who know you as the head of Eastern Airlines who may not have ever known. I mean, people of a younger generation. I mean, the fact that you had success outside of (as you said) being “a professional astronaut,” what let you do that?

[User] I don’t know. I—as I said, I’ve been very fortunate. And I just have been able to compartmentalize my life after I left Eastern (involuntarily). I was the first guy Lorenzo fired. But nevertheless, you know then I started with something else. And I just try never to look back. Like Satchel Paige said: Somebody might be gaining on you if you look back. So, I just feel very, very privileged to have been part of NASA in that era. I was with Chuck Yeager this last weekend, and he said, “Aw, you know, you should’ve stayed with the Air Force.” (He’s mellowed a lot). But still, I think I contributed more to the country there than I—in—than I could have if I had stayed in the Air Force.\n\n Of course he was right. When he told me I could kiss my Air Force career goodbye, I did kiss it goodbye. I didn’t fill in all the blocks. You know, I hadn’t gone to any of the schools and so on and so forth. When I left NASA, the Air Force offered me an opportunity to come back and head their Military Man in Space Program. Well, it didn’t take a genius to realize that there weren’t going to be two space programs. So I left.

[Assistant] The—you told us some stories about Chris Kraft. Any stories stand out about any of the other folks you mentioned, like George Low? I mean, any little anecdotes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] George Low and I were pretty much on the same page. I don’t think he didn’t—I can’t recall ever disagreeing with anything that he said. But Joe Shea, who was the head of—Joe didn’t have the experience in [managing]. He didn’t have that. So Joe—and Joe didn’t—took it awfully hard after the fire. That was the end of him.

[Assistant] Did you mentioned getting close to Nixon and doing the roles for Nixon; and he played such a role in where the space program went after Apollo in terms of Shuttle. Were you privy to any of that? Or did you counsel him at all?

[User] I was not.

[Assistant] No.

[User] No. You know another man that you should mention that was really a giant, too, was Sam Phillips. He was really the one person, the Apollo Program Manager Office in Washington, that I think had a practical head on his [shoulders]. He was a good—he was a wonderful leader.

[Assistant] What were your recollections of Guenter Wendt?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was not.

[Assistant] No.

[User] No. You know another man that you should mention that was really a giant, too, was Sam Phillips. He was really the one person, the Apollo Program Manager Office in Washington, that I think had a practical head on his [shoulders]. He was a good—he was a wonderful leader.

[Assistant] What were your recollections of Guenter Wendt?

[User] I didn’t have much—you know, Guenter Wendt was a German guy who I would trust to do everything right. All the funny—fun and games and—it was a bunch of crap as far as I’m concerned.

[Assistant] Von Braun? Did you have a personal—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. You know another man that you should mention that was really a giant, too, was Sam Phillips. He was really the one person, the Apollo Program Manager Office in Washington, that I think had a practical head on his [shoulders]. He was a good—he was a wonderful leader.

[Assistant] What were your recollections of Guenter Wendt?

[User] I didn’t have much—you know, Guenter Wendt was a German guy who I would trust to do everything right. All the funny—fun and games and—it was a bunch of crap as far as I’m concerned.

[Assistant] Von Braun? Did you have a personal—?

[User] Von Braun was wonderful. I knew him very well because I spent a lot of time at Huntsville on the—he was—he had a rare combination. He was a wonderful engineer. He was a great visionary (I’m sure he would be saying we’re having apartments [on the Moon]), but he was also a super salesman. He had a rare combination. And his people were really devoted to von Braun. And if he said something, I believed him. But—all of the people that I’ve discussed with you: they told me something, you could put it in the bank.

[Assistant] Was there anybody who you didn’t trust or didn’t—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t have much—you know, Guenter Wendt was a German guy who I would trust to do everything right. All the funny—fun and games and—it was a bunch of crap as far as I’m concerned.

[Assistant] Von Braun? Did you have a personal—?

[User] Von Braun was wonderful. I knew him very well because I spent a lot of time at Huntsville on the—he was—he had a rare combination. He was a wonderful engineer. He was a great visionary (I’m sure he would be saying we’re having apartments [on the Moon]), but he was also a super salesman. He had a rare combination. And his people were really devoted to von Braun. And if he said something, I believed him. But—all of the people that I’ve discussed with you: they told me something, you could put it in the bank.

[Assistant] Was there anybody who you didn’t trust or didn’t—

[User] Well, George Mueller I didn’t think was as—I didn’t distrust him. But I think he was sort of a gadfly; and Sam Phillips provided the guts in that program, as far as I’m concerned. George is still alive. He’s out trying to launch some new, lost-cost rocket; and I hope he succeeds. But I think Sam Phillips was the man there.

[Assistant] Do you still follow the space program and keep up with things


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, George Mueller I didn’t think was as—I didn’t distrust him. But I think he was sort of a gadfly; and Sam Phillips provided the guts in that program, as far as I’m concerned. George is still alive. He’s out trying to launch some new, lost-cost rocket; and I hope he succeeds. But I think Sam Phillips was the man there.

[Assistant] Do you still follow the space program and keep up with things

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] No? You—

[User] I read Aviation Week.

[Assistant] Yeah. There you go


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] No? You—

[User] I read Aviation Week.

[Assistant] Yeah. There you go

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You’ve moved on. Where do you think—what do—what would you like to see as the direction of the space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You’ve moved on. Where do you think—what do—what would you like to see as the direction of the space program?

[User] Well, I’d like to see the Space Station lead to a long-term mission to put humans on Mars. I think that would define a goal in the mission and a well thought out—I think it’s more difficult. Bill Anders has convinced me it’s much more difficult than people have projected because of the requirement for shielding (radiation shielding); but I think that would be a good goal for it. And I hope the Space Station works out well and that we do find things on orbit that we can do that will help, you know, people here on Earth. I’m not—

[Assistant] Did you—?

[User] —sure we have—you know, we’ve talked about the Shuttle and their flying fishes and worms and all that crap. You wonder what it’s all about. You know, you have a—kids send up experiments on a billion-dollar launch? Come on! Where’s the mission there?

[Assistant] Did you—the science portion of your mission; I mean, the exploration part of it. I know you said the motivation that you sensed at the time was this Cold War and to beat the Russians.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I’d like to see the Space Station lead to a long-term mission to put humans on Mars. I think that would define a goal in the mission and a well thought out—I think it’s more difficult. Bill Anders has convinced me it’s much more difficult than people have projected because of the requirement for shielding (radiation shielding); but I think that would be a good goal for it. And I hope the Space Station works out well and that we do find things on orbit that we can do that will help, you know, people here on Earth. I’m not—

[Assistant] Did you—?

[User] —sure we have—you know, we’ve talked about the Shuttle and their flying fishes and worms and all that crap. You wonder what it’s all about. You know, you have a—kids send up experiments on a billion-dollar launch? Come on! Where’s the mission there?

[Assistant] Did you—the science portion of your mission; I mean, the exploration part of it. I know you said the motivation that you sensed at the time was this Cold War and to beat the Russians.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] But did you see any other benefit coming out of it? Or was that a side benefit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —sure we have—you know, we’ve talked about the Shuttle and their flying fishes and worms and all that crap. You wonder what it’s all about. You know, you have a—kids send up experiments on a billion-dollar launch? Come on! Where’s the mission there?

[Assistant] Did you—the science portion of your mission; I mean, the exploration part of it. I know you said the motivation that you sensed at the time was this Cold War and to beat the Russians.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] But did you see any other benefit coming out of it? Or was that a side benefit?

[User] It was a side benefit for me.

[Assistant] It really was for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] But did you see any other benefit coming out of it? Or was that a side benefit?

[User] It was a side benefit for me.

[Assistant] It really was for you?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Not the sense of—? Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a side benefit for me.

[Assistant] It really was for you?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Not the sense of—? Okay.

[User] No. I just have to be honest with you.

[Assistant] Yeah. No, that’s—no—that’s what I want you to be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Not the sense of—? Okay.

[User] No. I just have to be honest with you.

[Assistant] Yeah. No, that’s—no—that’s what I want you to be.

[User] It was on the side; and it was fine as long as it didn’t get in the way of the main mission.

[Assistant] But you know that just the fact of Apollo changed our life on Earth more than, probably, almost anything of this century?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was on the side; and it was fine as long as it didn’t get in the way of the main mission.

[Assistant] But you know that just the fact of Apollo changed our life on Earth more than, probably, almost anything of this century?

[User] I agree with you.

[Assistant] I mean—

[User] That was the important thing: to do it. You know, and to—and to have it accomplished. And to extend humans’ horizons. That was what came out of Apollo, not how do you make Teflon pots and pans. And whether that is a lasting thing? I think it is. I think it’s a—and I think that Apollo was extremely important. I think it may have been, other than World War II,—it may have been the most important project in this century.

[Assistant] Do you look up at the Moon a little differently than the rest of us? Or are you—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the important thing: to do it. You know, and to—and to have it accomplished. And to extend humans’ horizons. That was what came out of Apollo, not how do you make Teflon pots and pans. And whether that is a lasting thing? I think it is. I think it’s a—and I think that Apollo was extremely important. I think it may have been, other than World War II,—it may have been the most important project in this century.

[Assistant] Do you look up at the Moon a little differently than the rest of us? Or are you—?

[User] Sometimes I do. I try to. I try to feel like everybody thinks I should. [laughs]

[Assistant] Which is?

[User] Which is, in awe: “I can’t believe I was really there.” And sometime I do. But sometimes I do. But most often I find I just revel in the beautiful Moon.

[Assistant] All right. Anything that—I mean, I’ve really gone through all my questions. So anything that you think is—?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as me personally?

[Assistant] Yes, you personally?

[User] Well, I would say it was this, that every picture that they have seen or will see, taken on the Moon, that we did, we handled and processed, everything, be it television, the still pictures, whatever, and that we were able to take this information and preserve it so it’ll still be there for generations to come if they ever want to use it. It’s there, and who knows when it’ll ever be done again. The advances that have been made in photography since they went to the digital technique, it’s just absolutely fantastic. Just think what we could have done with a simple little camera that we have today that you take your pictures in color, it produces sound. You can go directly to your video screen, put it on your computer. It’s automatic focus, automatic this, automatic everything. Just think of what Ed [Edward H.] White [II] could have done if he had that on his maneuvering device, how much simpler it would have been. So there have been many, many advances. Film is almost gone. It’s all digital and electronic these days.

[Assistant] Speaking of which, the work that NASA put together to preserve the space experience, how have some of those things benefited photography and the general public?

[User] You mean the film that we’ve preserved?

[Assistant] The techniques or the film.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I would say it was this, that every picture that they have seen or will see, taken on the Moon, that we did, we handled and processed, everything, be it television, the still pictures, whatever, and that we were able to take this information and preserve it so it’ll still be there for generations to come if they ever want to use it. It’s there, and who knows when it’ll ever be done again. The advances that have been made in photography since they went to the digital technique, it’s just absolutely fantastic. Just think what we could have done with a simple little camera that we have today that you take your pictures in color, it produces sound. You can go directly to your video screen, put it on your computer. It’s automatic focus, automatic this, automatic everything. Just think of what Ed [Edward H.] White [II] could have done if he had that on his maneuvering device, how much simpler it would have been. So there have been many, many advances. Film is almost gone. It’s all digital and electronic these days.

[Assistant] Speaking of which, the work that NASA put together to preserve the space experience, how have some of those things benefited photography and the general public?

[User] You mean the film that we’ve preserved?

[Assistant] The techniques or the film.

[User] The techniques were not new. No, it’s rather standard. As a matter of fact, the color sequence camera is something that you probably studied in high school physics. You pass a light through a red, green, and blue filter, and you have white. If you use the negative technique and use the other filters—I forget the combination. I think it’s cyan, magenta, and yellow, if you pass light through that, you get a black, you can’t say an image. It’s not an image, but it’s black, so it’s subtractive colors is what I’m trying to say. These things, that’s not new. You learned that in physics in school.

[Assistant] What were some of your favorite photographs or moments from your time at NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Shuttle was just coming in. As a matter of fact, the first Shuttle was brought, I think to White Sands from Palmdale, California, somewhere out there, and it was at White Sands. But that’s about the time that I departed. So I don’t know too much about the Shuttle other than what I see and read and hear like everyone else.

[Assistant] As you mentioned earlier, we have so many advances now, and now so many of these pictures are on the Internet. How do you feel about seeing this accessible through the Internet now?

[User] These that are taken now, you say?

[Assistant] Well, and some of the older ones are available, too. On the Internet you can get to them so that the general public can see them relative—

[User] All of those that are in storage?

[Assistant] Well, I don’t know exactly which ones are all available, but I know many of them are.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] These that are taken now, you say?

[Assistant] Well, and some of the older ones are available, too. On the Internet you can get to them so that the general public can see them relative—

[User] All of those that are in storage?

[Assistant] Well, I don’t know exactly which ones are all available, but I know many of them are.

[User] If I read your question right and heard your question right, everything that has ever been taken is available to the public.

[Assistant] I’m not sure about that, but I know selected ones are available to the public now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It really was. He was at [NACA] when I went there. I didn’t get there until after college, and I graduated from college in ’44, ’45. He was already there, and I didn’t meet him until 1947. But he had friends that told him about me, and I had friends that told me about him. They were trying to get us together, but whenever there were parties we just didn’t seem to go to the same parties.\n\n One day I’m over in the Administration Building waiting to pick up something from a shuttle bus, and I see this good-looking man coming down the stairs, and I thought, “He’s good-looking.” But I figured he’d just walk out. He kept walking, he kept coming towards me, and I’m wondering what in the world is this? He walked up to me and said, “I’ve been trying to meet you through mutual friends and we don’t seem to have any. So I’ve decided to introduce myself.” I could tell how embarrassed he was to be doing this because I knew how the Europeans were. You have to have a proper introduction.\n\n I said to him, “Well, my mother requires three written references from anybody I go out with.”\n\n He looked at me and he didn’t offer me any references, but he said, “I’ll call you sometime.” He called me that night. That was the beginning of a beautiful friendship and life. I was dating a lot of different people because there were a lot of dances and things, but I didn’t care anything about any of these people. He eliminated all my friends by saying, “I have to see you a little more often.” Finally I realized I wasn’t seeing anybody but him. That’s how it all happened between the two of us. It couldn’t have been a better deal.

[Assistant] That’s wonderful.

[User] It was just an absolutely wonderful life we had.

[Assistant] How many years were you together?

[User] Sixty-four, and I wouldn’t have minded 64 more.

[Assistant] That says a lot right there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just an absolutely wonderful life we had.

[Assistant] How many years were you together?

[User] Sixty-four, and I wouldn’t have minded 64 more.

[Assistant] That says a lot right there.

[User] I learned something from him every single day he did research, because he’d come up with something. He was researching in medicine, and we were interested in a lot of these bad diseases. He found something for cancer He turned it in, and they went to the doctors and they said, “It’s just too expensive, we can’t do it.”\n\n Now this is how sometimes things don’t get done because they say it’s too expensive. But when you think of how long we’ve been contributing to cancer [research], and we ought to have all the answers there, but we don’t have them. That’s off the subject matter. But I told it because it was just amazing to me that he could contribute in any subject matter.\n\n While he was at NASA he switched subjects quite often, and he ended up in space and one of the Center Directors who was out here said to Bob, “How can you switch from this to this?”\n\n He said, “Well, if you have a good education, you can switch to anything.” I guess you could. That was [Edgar M.] Cortright. The Cortrights were very good friends of ours. She is deceased but he is not, and he lives now up in Maine. They retired up there. They had a daughter in that area. Oh, I miss my friends so much. They’re all deceased too. This is the bad thing about getting old, especially if you don’t feel it. I just don’t feel it.

[Assistant] It’s a great blessing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sixty-four, and I wouldn’t have minded 64 more.

[Assistant] That says a lot right there.

[User] I learned something from him every single day he did research, because he’d come up with something. He was researching in medicine, and we were interested in a lot of these bad diseases. He found something for cancer He turned it in, and they went to the doctors and they said, “It’s just too expensive, we can’t do it.”\n\n Now this is how sometimes things don’t get done because they say it’s too expensive. But when you think of how long we’ve been contributing to cancer [research], and we ought to have all the answers there, but we don’t have them. That’s off the subject matter. But I told it because it was just amazing to me that he could contribute in any subject matter.\n\n While he was at NASA he switched subjects quite often, and he ended up in space and one of the Center Directors who was out here said to Bob, “How can you switch from this to this?”\n\n He said, “Well, if you have a good education, you can switch to anything.” I guess you could. That was [Edgar M.] Cortright. The Cortrights were very good friends of ours. She is deceased but he is not, and he lives now up in Maine. They retired up there. They had a daughter in that area. Oh, I miss my friends so much. They’re all deceased too. This is the bad thing about getting old, especially if you don’t feel it. I just don’t feel it.

[Assistant] It’s a great blessing.

[User] It is. I decided I wasn’t going to be old. Bob was like that too. We never got old.

[Assistant] Did you ever research a project together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. I decided I wasn’t going to be old. Bob was like that too. We never got old.

[Assistant] Did you ever research a project together?

[User] No. I did not do that, but I did a lot of stuff at NASA. I guess I gave all my time to the researchers. I did not do research. But I was involved in it, and I knew all about it. I had to know about it because I had to acquire the proper materials. People say, “Well, how did it change when you went to N-A-S-A?” Didn’t change at all. We still had to do aeronautics. We just had to do aeronautics and space.\n\n Nothing changed, we just took on double work, and it was a lot more work. We had to build up a space collection, and we had to build it up fast.

[Assistant] How did you do that?

[User] We worked overtime and we had all these brilliant people. I had them checking everywhere and getting information that we could get from other collecting agencies. We soon built up the library with what was known in space, because space was a new field. In a few years we had probably the best library in space in the country. I know it was the best scientific library in the country. I got a lot of credit for that. I got the NASA Medal for that.

[Assistant] How did you correspond with other places that had materials? Now everybody’s answer is you just go to the Internet. You didn’t have an Internet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I did not do that, but I did a lot of stuff at NASA. I guess I gave all my time to the researchers. I did not do research. But I was involved in it, and I knew all about it. I had to know about it because I had to acquire the proper materials. People say, “Well, how did it change when you went to N-A-S-A?” Didn’t change at all. We still had to do aeronautics. We just had to do aeronautics and space.\n\n Nothing changed, we just took on double work, and it was a lot more work. We had to build up a space collection, and we had to build it up fast.

[Assistant] How did you do that?

[User] We worked overtime and we had all these brilliant people. I had them checking everywhere and getting information that we could get from other collecting agencies. We soon built up the library with what was known in space, because space was a new field. In a few years we had probably the best library in space in the country. I know it was the best scientific library in the country. I got a lot of credit for that. I got the NASA Medal for that.

[Assistant] How did you correspond with other places that had materials? Now everybody’s answer is you just go to the Internet. You didn’t have an Internet.

[User] No, we didn’t. By phone. That’s how we corresponded. I had all these people that were so bright. They understood the subject matter so well, they did the phoning, I didn’t phone, because it’d come to a point where they’d ask me a technical question about it that I understood it enough to collect materials, and I understood it enough to get the right journals in. We had to subscribe to a lot of journals, and we had a great collection, and it was foreign and domestic, and I had to know enough. I had to learn enough foreign language to understand those titles.

[Assistant]
How did you get the foreign documents and those kinds of things into the NASA libraries?

Did you have restrictions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s the system that’s on the Internet right now.

[Assistant] The NTRS [NASA Technical Reports Server]?

[User] Our scientific system was put on the Internet. That’s the scientific system on there. In any case he said, “Yeah, I really like that. Sounds like something that we ought to be thinking about.” I just decided I was going to mention money. So I said, “Who’s going to pay for it?” You should have seen my bosses, their eyes got big.

[Assistant] The gasp.

[User] Gasp. He said, “I’ll pay for it.”

[Assistant] What year was this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Our scientific system was put on the Internet. That’s the scientific system on there. In any case he said, “Yeah, I really like that. Sounds like something that we ought to be thinking about.” I just decided I was going to mention money. So I said, “Who’s going to pay for it?” You should have seen my bosses, their eyes got big.

[Assistant] The gasp.

[User] Gasp. He said, “I’ll pay for it.”

[Assistant] What year was this?

[User] It was in the late ’80s.

[Assistant] Who was the Center Director at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gasp. He said, “I’ll pay for it.”

[Assistant] What year was this?

[User] It was in the late ’80s.

[Assistant] Who was the Center Director at the time?

[User] Donald P. Hearth. He was a great friend of mine. He is the one that I got a promotion to a [GS] 14, and my boss didn’t let it go into effect. I sat there for almost a year with no increase, and finally I went back to the Chief Scientist, and the Director called my boss and said, “Why haven’t I gotten Jane Hess’s promotion in here?” At a 14 level it was approved by the front office.\n\n I got the promotion finally, but they were just terrible. They hated the fact that the library was so popular. I was a branch head. They had about four other branches, and they wanted all the branches to get equal treatment. It couldn’t be. We shouldn’t have been under the service area anyway.

[Assistant] You were mentioning the fact that this is a computer system. This is something completely different from when you started.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Donald P. Hearth. He was a great friend of mine. He is the one that I got a promotion to a [GS] 14, and my boss didn’t let it go into effect. I sat there for almost a year with no increase, and finally I went back to the Chief Scientist, and the Director called my boss and said, “Why haven’t I gotten Jane Hess’s promotion in here?” At a 14 level it was approved by the front office.\n\n I got the promotion finally, but they were just terrible. They hated the fact that the library was so popular. I was a branch head. They had about four other branches, and they wanted all the branches to get equal treatment. It couldn’t be. We shouldn’t have been under the service area anyway.

[Assistant] You were mentioning the fact that this is a computer system. This is something completely different from when you started.

[User] We had a computer system that had all the material on it, but you could not access it with one language. What they had, we could start doing what they were doing, and we could also include the fact that with this system we could access ours with one language, because it had a black box, and everything went through this language-wise.

[Assistant] Computer language.

[User] In the computer. That was the thing that sold it to me. I said, “Well, we don’t have to do away with anything, we can just incorporate it, it’s wonderful.”

[Assistant] It just pulls from what was already in existence.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I left I can tell you that the ones that were employed by the government I had probably 10 or 12. But I had a larger staff, including contractors. My total staff was 30 some.

[Assistant] How many were there when you first started in the library?

[User] It was two separate buildings, and in the East Area they were doing everything for all the Centers, they had a number of people over there. They had a lot of catalogers. I would say they probably had 15 people total. But in the West Area library where they sent me there were just two or three other than myself, maybe four, about four other people.

[Assistant] Did those two libraries form together?

[User] Eventually we went together. We went together in 1955 when we moved my library to the Flight Building and that library in the East Area moved also to the Flight Building on the second floor. Thank God they got us out of there, because it’s metal, and it was the hottest place. It was awful.\n\n But you all want to see a picture of my library? The building. Some friends of ours who signed this and gave this to us in 2010. I’d never seen this book. Have you seen this book?

[Assistant] I actually have seen that one. That’s great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was two separate buildings, and in the East Area they were doing everything for all the Centers, they had a number of people over there. They had a lot of catalogers. I would say they probably had 15 people total. But in the West Area library where they sent me there were just two or three other than myself, maybe four, about four other people.

[Assistant] Did those two libraries form together?

[User] Eventually we went together. We went together in 1955 when we moved my library to the Flight Building and that library in the East Area moved also to the Flight Building on the second floor. Thank God they got us out of there, because it’s metal, and it was the hottest place. It was awful.\n\n But you all want to see a picture of my library? The building. Some friends of ours who signed this and gave this to us in 2010. I’d never seen this book. Have you seen this book?

[Assistant] I actually have seen that one. That’s great.

[User] I hadn’t seen it. Susan [L.] Adkins was another one of the gals that worked with me, and she was also very brilliant, but she was not the scientist. She was left in charge when I retired. They brought in a guy from California. He said he was civil service, but it turned out he’d never worked for civil service, he was a contractor, never worked really in NASA. He was working with the library out there but he was a contractor. Susan, as long as she was alive, I knew things would go well.\n\n She took up flying, and she crashed out here and died, this is her [showing photograph]. Just awful. She was a great gal. Let me see. Whose picture was I going to show you?

[Assistant] Picture of your library.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Eventually we went together. We went together in 1955 when we moved my library to the Flight Building and that library in the East Area moved also to the Flight Building on the second floor. Thank God they got us out of there, because it’s metal, and it was the hottest place. It was awful.\n\n But you all want to see a picture of my library? The building. Some friends of ours who signed this and gave this to us in 2010. I’d never seen this book. Have you seen this book?

[Assistant] I actually have seen that one. That’s great.

[User] I hadn’t seen it. Susan [L.] Adkins was another one of the gals that worked with me, and she was also very brilliant, but she was not the scientist. She was left in charge when I retired. They brought in a guy from California. He said he was civil service, but it turned out he’d never worked for civil service, he was a contractor, never worked really in NASA. He was working with the library out there but he was a contractor. Susan, as long as she was alive, I knew things would go well.\n\n She took up flying, and she crashed out here and died, this is her [showing photograph]. Just awful. She was a great gal. Let me see. Whose picture was I going to show you?

[Assistant] Picture of your library.

[User] The library. Here it is. This building was the library building out there.

[Assistant] The entire building was used for the library? Was that the only thing that was there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hadn’t seen it. Susan [L.] Adkins was another one of the gals that worked with me, and she was also very brilliant, but she was not the scientist. She was left in charge when I retired. They brought in a guy from California. He said he was civil service, but it turned out he’d never worked for civil service, he was a contractor, never worked really in NASA. He was working with the library out there but he was a contractor. Susan, as long as she was alive, I knew things would go well.\n\n She took up flying, and she crashed out here and died, this is her [showing photograph]. Just awful. She was a great gal. Let me see. Whose picture was I going to show you?

[Assistant] Picture of your library.

[User] The library. Here it is. This building was the library building out there.

[Assistant] The entire building was used for the library? Was that the only thing that was there?

[User] It was all library at one time, and the secret files were on the first floor. Later other areas were moved into the library building.

[Assistant] Did you have to have a specific classification to get in there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The library. Here it is. This building was the library building out there.

[Assistant] The entire building was used for the library? Was that the only thing that was there?

[User] It was all library at one time, and the secret files were on the first floor. Later other areas were moved into the library building.

[Assistant] Did you have to have a specific classification to get in there?

[User] Oh yes, honey, I’ve had classifications much higher than secret, and they go a lot higher. Nobody knows that unless you have to get these classifications.

[Assistant] Also I was thinking about the foreign documents because you mentioned the journals. Now they have import and export control. Did you ever have that problem?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was all library at one time, and the secret files were on the first floor. Later other areas were moved into the library building.

[Assistant] Did you have to have a specific classification to get in there?

[User] Oh yes, honey, I’ve had classifications much higher than secret, and they go a lot higher. Nobody knows that unless you have to get these classifications.

[Assistant] Also I was thinking about the foreign documents because you mentioned the journals. Now they have import and export control. Did you ever have that problem?

[User] No, we were on the list for a lot of those things.

[Assistant] Did you ever have a problem acquiring anything because it was foreign? No approval process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, honey, I’ve had classifications much higher than secret, and they go a lot higher. Nobody knows that unless you have to get these classifications.

[Assistant] Also I was thinking about the foreign documents because you mentioned the journals. Now they have import and export control. Did you ever have that problem?

[User] No, we were on the list for a lot of those things.

[Assistant] Did you ever have a problem acquiring anything because it was foreign? No approval process?

[User] No. But during the war we had two communists working in the library.

[Assistant] Was that a secret as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we were on the list for a lot of those things.

[Assistant] Did you ever have a problem acquiring anything because it was foreign? No approval process?

[User] No. But during the war we had two communists working in the library.

[Assistant] Was that a secret as well?

[User] They got caught. Well, my boss was still Betty Gilman, she was smart as a whip. Betty Gilman thought they were the best thing since sliced bread.\n\n In any case, there are pictures in here of meetings of the libraries.

[Assistant] Did you host those? Were you a mover and shaker about getting the other libraries to Langley?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. But during the war we had two communists working in the library.

[Assistant] Was that a secret as well?

[User] They got caught. Well, my boss was still Betty Gilman, she was smart as a whip. Betty Gilman thought they were the best thing since sliced bread.\n\n In any case, there are pictures in here of meetings of the libraries.

[Assistant] Did you host those? Were you a mover and shaker about getting the other libraries to Langley?

[User] No. Each Center hosted their own libraries. Langley was the lead library. I hosted the ones that were here. But also the directors of Langley had me entertain all their important visitors.

[Assistant] Langley had the open house in ’59, the first one after NASA was formed, but they also had those meetings where as you said the important people would come through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They got caught. Well, my boss was still Betty Gilman, she was smart as a whip. Betty Gilman thought they were the best thing since sliced bread.\n\n In any case, there are pictures in here of meetings of the libraries.

[Assistant] Did you host those? Were you a mover and shaker about getting the other libraries to Langley?

[User] No. Each Center hosted their own libraries. Langley was the lead library. I hosted the ones that were here. But also the directors of Langley had me entertain all their important visitors.

[Assistant] Langley had the open house in ’59, the first one after NASA was formed, but they also had those meetings where as you said the important people would come through.

[User] After the astronauts left here, they were invited back here because the head of Japan was coming to visit—the son of the head of Japan. He has been the head for a long time now, but he was the son then. That was in my real early days. All the directors out here had me do the parties. I did all the parties for everybody. Entertained. When we had meetings they had me do the program for the wives, because a lot of these people brought their wives. These are my retirement [photographs].

[Assistant] What year did you retire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Each Center hosted their own libraries. Langley was the lead library. I hosted the ones that were here. But also the directors of Langley had me entertain all their important visitors.

[Assistant] Langley had the open house in ’59, the first one after NASA was formed, but they also had those meetings where as you said the important people would come through.

[User] After the astronauts left here, they were invited back here because the head of Japan was coming to visit—the son of the head of Japan. He has been the head for a long time now, but he was the son then. That was in my real early days. All the directors out here had me do the parties. I did all the parties for everybody. Entertained. When we had meetings they had me do the program for the wives, because a lot of these people brought their wives. These are my retirement [photographs].

[Assistant] What year did you retire?

[User] In 1990. That’s my nephew, Charles Dempsey, right there, that’s Avis’s son with me at my retirement party.

[Assistant] Were you ready to retire?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After the astronauts left here, they were invited back here because the head of Japan was coming to visit—the son of the head of Japan. He has been the head for a long time now, but he was the son then. That was in my real early days. All the directors out here had me do the parties. I did all the parties for everybody. Entertained. When we had meetings they had me do the program for the wives, because a lot of these people brought their wives. These are my retirement [photographs].

[Assistant] What year did you retire?

[User] In 1990. That’s my nephew, Charles Dempsey, right there, that’s Avis’s son with me at my retirement party.

[Assistant] Were you ready to retire?

[User] Oh yes, I was ready. I didn’t retire until I was 68. These two sisters, Cordelia and Avis, they were a lot older than me, they wanted to retire near me. If you want to you can look through them, you don’t have to. Everybody gets everything out and wants everybody to see it, and I’m not like that really. But I thought the library building you should see because it was big.

[Assistant] I notice they’re NASA photos. So I might get those numbers off there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, I was ready. I didn’t retire until I was 68. These two sisters, Cordelia and Avis, they were a lot older than me, they wanted to retire near me. If you want to you can look through them, you don’t have to. Everybody gets everything out and wants everybody to see it, and I’m not like that really. But I thought the library building you should see because it was big.

[Assistant] I notice they’re NASA photos. So I might get those numbers off there.

[User] The meatball [NASA logo] was on that. They got that worm [NASA logo, 1975-1992]. I refused to let them take the meatball off my building. I called the Director. I said, “I’m not going to let them take this off this building, because I can’t stand that worm.”\n\n He said, “I can’t stand it either.” So he let me keep it.

[Assistant] That’s great.

[User] Then when it got faded he sent somebody over there to paint it and get it looking better.

[Assistant] It’s all who you know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The meatball [NASA logo] was on that. They got that worm [NASA logo, 1975-1992]. I refused to let them take the meatball off my building. I called the Director. I said, “I’m not going to let them take this off this building, because I can’t stand that worm.”\n\n He said, “I can’t stand it either.” So he let me keep it.

[Assistant] That’s great.

[User] Then when it got faded he sent somebody over there to paint it and get it looking better.

[Assistant] It’s all who you know.

[User] It is. I have found that out at NASA, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have anything to do with records retention and records management?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. I have found that out at NASA, yes.

[Assistant] Did you have anything to do with records retention and records management?

[User] Oh yes, we kept all the records and all the old material. We had acquired material from 1915; 1915 is when it became N-A-C-A. But it existed before that. It was under Smithsonian. When it became independent we had everything that had been published actually in aeronautics from the 1800s, and we were on exchange lists with all the countries. Of course England was doing more aeronautics than anybody else in Europe, so we had all their material. Somebody over there messed up with some of their records, and they lost a good many of their old documents, and they borrowed them from us to make copies.

[Assistant] That’s amazing.

[User] God knows what they’ve done with that. What was on the second floor over there, the one that they left in charge that was a computer person, she said, “Everything that you need to know is on the computer.”\n\n I said, “It is not. The very old stuff is not on there. Unless you know what has been done you don’t know where to start with research. Every person that ever came to the library to do research said, ‘I’m going to research in this area, can we find out what’s been done here?’” That was the first thing we did. You had to have a lot of background knowledge of that in order to do that.

[Assistant] You were talking about how you had somebody that was in physics and chemistry and you had all these people that had that knowledge in their head of where to go look for these things to help the researchers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, we kept all the records and all the old material. We had acquired material from 1915; 1915 is when it became N-A-C-A. But it existed before that. It was under Smithsonian. When it became independent we had everything that had been published actually in aeronautics from the 1800s, and we were on exchange lists with all the countries. Of course England was doing more aeronautics than anybody else in Europe, so we had all their material. Somebody over there messed up with some of their records, and they lost a good many of their old documents, and they borrowed them from us to make copies.

[Assistant] That’s amazing.

[User] God knows what they’ve done with that. What was on the second floor over there, the one that they left in charge that was a computer person, she said, “Everything that you need to know is on the computer.”\n\n I said, “It is not. The very old stuff is not on there. Unless you know what has been done you don’t know where to start with research. Every person that ever came to the library to do research said, ‘I’m going to research in this area, can we find out what’s been done here?’” That was the first thing we did. You had to have a lot of background knowledge of that in order to do that.

[Assistant] You were talking about how you had somebody that was in physics and chemistry and you had all these people that had that knowledge in their head of where to go look for these things to help the researchers.

[User] Listen. I don’t understand people that don’t want somebody smarter than they are working for them. I really loved it. I knew they knew things I didn’t know. Detail. I just had broad knowledge, because I went back to school. I got the rest of my library science, and then I took chemistry and physics and aeronautics, and I had a great helper.

[Assistant] You had your own tutor at home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] God knows what they’ve done with that. What was on the second floor over there, the one that they left in charge that was a computer person, she said, “Everything that you need to know is on the computer.”\n\n I said, “It is not. The very old stuff is not on there. Unless you know what has been done you don’t know where to start with research. Every person that ever came to the library to do research said, ‘I’m going to research in this area, can we find out what’s been done here?’” That was the first thing we did. You had to have a lot of background knowledge of that in order to do that.

[Assistant] You were talking about how you had somebody that was in physics and chemistry and you had all these people that had that knowledge in their head of where to go look for these things to help the researchers.

[User] Listen. I don’t understand people that don’t want somebody smarter than they are working for them. I really loved it. I knew they knew things I didn’t know. Detail. I just had broad knowledge, because I went back to school. I got the rest of my library science, and then I took chemistry and physics and aeronautics, and I had a great helper.

[Assistant] You had your own tutor at home.

[User] That’s right. Bob when he first came to [NACA] worked in aeronautics, but he ended up more in space. He brought laser work to the Center.

[Assistant] That was a whole new field for your area to research.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Listen. I don’t understand people that don’t want somebody smarter than they are working for them. I really loved it. I knew they knew things I didn’t know. Detail. I just had broad knowledge, because I went back to school. I got the rest of my library science, and then I took chemistry and physics and aeronautics, and I had a great helper.

[Assistant] You had your own tutor at home.

[User] That’s right. Bob when he first came to [NACA] worked in aeronautics, but he ended up more in space. He brought laser work to the Center.

[Assistant] That was a whole new field for your area to research.

[User] Yeah. That’s when Cortright said, “How can you work in all these fields, Bob?” Bob, he was the most unassuming person, he didn’t think he ever did anything great. He really didn’t.

[Assistant] He was doing his job.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. That’s when Cortright said, “How can you work in all these fields, Bob?” Bob, he was the most unassuming person, he didn’t think he ever did anything great. He really didn’t.

[Assistant] He was doing his job.

[User] Just doing his job. I would have thought it was insulting to say, “Well, if you have a good background education you can do it.” But he didn’t mean that that way. He just didn’t think that was anything special. He was the best Christian. I shouldn’t be telling all this on here.

[Assistant] It’s fine.

[User] He’s the best Christian I ever knew, I never could get him to talk about anybody. Always if I said something about somebody he’d find something good to tell me about him. He was like that with everybody.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you real quick if there’s anything else in your notes that we haven’t talked about that maybe you want to talk about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I’ve got something here somewhere. I felt that certainly getting the computers changed was a major accomplishment, and it took a lot. Also we had a center for processing. Eventually we didn’t do any of that here. We did it all in Baltimore [Maryland]. We had a NASA Center up there that printed all the materials and distributed it. They did the cards and everything. Then eventually when we were computerized the cards ceased to be.\n\n Of course we had to subscribe to all the open literature that pertained to our goals. My major responsibility was building the collection that met the requirements of the research staff, and that was major, and that was not easy, and I used every support I could find to do it.\n\n That’s when I set up the library committee.

[Assistant] That was a smart piece of strategy. They’re the ones that benefited.

[User] That’s right, and they knew that. They really appreciated the library. Anything new, they would come to the library and tell us.

[Assistant] You had a nice partnership.

[User] We had a wonderful relationship, yes. My management hated the fact that we had this library committee. They just despised it. But it meant that I could get things done. I couldn’t get anything done through them. But I don’t understand people that give up when you can’t get something done the way that you’re supposed to, find another way. It’s possible. I know. I did it.

[Assistant] Did you have to keep up with numbers, like how many journals you subscribed to per year? Do you remember any of the numbers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right, and they knew that. They really appreciated the library. Anything new, they would come to the library and tell us.

[Assistant] You had a nice partnership.

[User] We had a wonderful relationship, yes. My management hated the fact that we had this library committee. They just despised it. But it meant that I could get things done. I couldn’t get anything done through them. But I don’t understand people that give up when you can’t get something done the way that you’re supposed to, find another way. It’s possible. I know. I did it.

[Assistant] Did you have to keep up with numbers, like how many journals you subscribed to per year? Do you remember any of the numbers?

[User] Yes, we had all kinds of statistics. Yes, we had to do that, had to justify the subscription.

[Assistant] They’re so expensive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With me?

[Assistant] Hear the point. I just want to hear the voice.

[User] Yeah, OK. I'm sick right now and going to the doctor’s.

[Assistant] I’m gonna start this cassette tape. OK, this is Sharleen Hirschi Simpson, and this is January 26, 2011, and I'm interviewing Rose Boice, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Bolivia, the Bolivia II group. And so then let's just go ahead and can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now?

[User] Ok, what I'm doing now is being retired happily and I am volunteering at the school that I just retired from. I do that a half a day, a week and one evening a week I go and volunteer at a friend's house who is sponsoring a group of Turkish refugees, and I help them with their homework and high school work. I also work at my local church and work with the teenagers for the confirmation program, particularly the social justice projects and helping neighbors, friends and the community. I also babysit for my grandkids and have fun to work with.

[Assistant] Can you think about way back when you were getting ready, when you joined the Peace Corps? What were you doing at the time that you learned about the Peace Corps and what made you decide to join it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, OK. I'm sick right now and going to the doctor’s.

[Assistant] I’m gonna start this cassette tape. OK, this is Sharleen Hirschi Simpson, and this is January 26, 2011, and I'm interviewing Rose Boice, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Bolivia, the Bolivia II group. And so then let's just go ahead and can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now?

[User] Ok, what I'm doing now is being retired happily and I am volunteering at the school that I just retired from. I do that a half a day, a week and one evening a week I go and volunteer at a friend's house who is sponsoring a group of Turkish refugees, and I help them with their homework and high school work. I also work at my local church and work with the teenagers for the confirmation program, particularly the social justice projects and helping neighbors, friends and the community. I also babysit for my grandkids and have fun to work with.

[Assistant] Can you think about way back when you were getting ready, when you joined the Peace Corps? What were you doing at the time that you learned about the Peace Corps and what made you decide to join it?

[User] I was in college. I was a senior. I was looking for a job. I was thinking that it would be totally moral to do something like the Peace Corps. And I specifically wanted to help America because I wanted to use my Spanish. I had a couple of years of high school, but I loved it. Definitely not fluent, but I, I was not finding anything that was significant for me. I was a teenager and that's kind of a hard person to place. And I thought maybe the Peace Corps would have a better idea what to do with the sociology majors. And I would in twenty one, I said to myself, I want to do something with my life that's significant at this point in my life to see who I am and what I can do. And I thought this would be a great chance.

[Assistant] Great. So that's kind of why you did join the Peace Corps, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ok, what I'm doing now is being retired happily and I am volunteering at the school that I just retired from. I do that a half a day, a week and one evening a week I go and volunteer at a friend's house who is sponsoring a group of Turkish refugees, and I help them with their homework and high school work. I also work at my local church and work with the teenagers for the confirmation program, particularly the social justice projects and helping neighbors, friends and the community. I also babysit for my grandkids and have fun to work with.

[Assistant] Can you think about way back when you were getting ready, when you joined the Peace Corps? What were you doing at the time that you learned about the Peace Corps and what made you decide to join it?

[User] I was in college. I was a senior. I was looking for a job. I was thinking that it would be totally moral to do something like the Peace Corps. And I specifically wanted to help America because I wanted to use my Spanish. I had a couple of years of high school, but I loved it. Definitely not fluent, but I, I was not finding anything that was significant for me. I was a teenager and that's kind of a hard person to place. And I thought maybe the Peace Corps would have a better idea what to do with the sociology majors. And I would in twenty one, I said to myself, I want to do something with my life that's significant at this point in my life to see who I am and what I can do. And I thought this would be a great chance.

[Assistant] Great. So that's kind of why you did join the Peace Corps, right?

[User] Right. And a lot of advertising on TV, which people have mentioned that they don't do anymore. And I think the advertisers swayed me differently.

[Assistant] So did did you, so when did you apply?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in college. I was a senior. I was looking for a job. I was thinking that it would be totally moral to do something like the Peace Corps. And I specifically wanted to help America because I wanted to use my Spanish. I had a couple of years of high school, but I loved it. Definitely not fluent, but I, I was not finding anything that was significant for me. I was a teenager and that's kind of a hard person to place. And I thought maybe the Peace Corps would have a better idea what to do with the sociology majors. And I would in twenty one, I said to myself, I want to do something with my life that's significant at this point in my life to see who I am and what I can do. And I thought this would be a great chance.

[Assistant] Great. So that's kind of why you did join the Peace Corps, right?

[User] Right. And a lot of advertising on TV, which people have mentioned that they don't do anymore. And I think the advertisers swayed me differently.

[Assistant] So did did you, so when did you apply?

[User] I applied to February of my senior year, 1962, OK. And quite quickly. And I was going to be a professor in Cleveland.

[Assistant] Well, you were OK. So what did your family think when you decided to go into the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And a lot of advertising on TV, which people have mentioned that they don't do anymore. And I think the advertisers swayed me differently.

[Assistant] So did did you, so when did you apply?

[User] I applied to February of my senior year, 1962, OK. And quite quickly. And I was going to be a professor in Cleveland.

[Assistant] Well, you were OK. So what did your family think when you decided to go into the Peace Corps?

[User] I forgot in my family for guidance when I was trying to decide and they said, you know, I don't really want to. But later I realized because of me that they were so positively sure that I would not. And that's why they said what they did. My father got for a whole year and begged me not to go because he was sure I would be killed. And my mother was terribly disappointed that she had messed with me so well. She thought she knew me better than that. My brothers and sisters didn't care one way or the other because the school were shocked that I had really lost my mind so I couldn't get in the car, which made me feel that I was doing the right thing.

[Assistant] Well, we were in the same boat with her, OK, and you did did talk about being asked to join the Bolivia to project. What did you do to get yourself ready? When you knew you were going to go into the Peace Corps, did you do anything special?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I applied to February of my senior year, 1962, OK. And quite quickly. And I was going to be a professor in Cleveland.

[Assistant] Well, you were OK. So what did your family think when you decided to go into the Peace Corps?

[User] I forgot in my family for guidance when I was trying to decide and they said, you know, I don't really want to. But later I realized because of me that they were so positively sure that I would not. And that's why they said what they did. My father got for a whole year and begged me not to go because he was sure I would be killed. And my mother was terribly disappointed that she had messed with me so well. She thought she knew me better than that. My brothers and sisters didn't care one way or the other because the school were shocked that I had really lost my mind so I couldn't get in the car, which made me feel that I was doing the right thing.

[Assistant] Well, we were in the same boat with her, OK, and you did did talk about being asked to join the Bolivia to project. What did you do to get yourself ready? When you knew you were going to go into the Peace Corps, did you do anything special?

[User] I went to a map and found Bolivia and beyond that, I did nothing to get ready. I do remember something amusing and my parents that they were called for graduation and then we got a fuller brush and we had a court. In our case, I think it was insect repellent. So, you know, going to the tropics first, what you would need, I would terribly accessible to in effect like that. That's all I can remember doing to prepare it was the fact that there was no there was very little preparation or any other way. So what you're getting into

[Assistant] Is we didn't really know too much, did we? We can. OK. Can you talk a little bit about the training that would have been your first experience.