[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I was ready to go. I think it was, it was July in the District. It was hot. It smelled. There used to be a glue factory down on the Potomac. And with the 98 percent humidity, that smell would just encapsulate everything. And there was very little air conditioning in the sixties.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And you know, July was the lunar landing. Woodstock was coming up. So it was a good time to take off.

[Assistant] What did your friends and family think of your decision?

[User]
I remember I think I called home on every Sunday, as you required to call home every Sunday evening. And I think I was suggesting that I'd like to go to the festival at Woodstock, and I dropped this little thing about then going to Honduras, and my parents said, you have to come home right now. And so I, you know, so I somehow, two people, someone had to come take my space in the house I was renting. And I packed my little Karmann Ghia and drove up 95 to Long Island and negotiated everything. I don't think they were particularly, they certainly weren't angry. I think they were permissive. I think they were a little bit worried.

I had one friend who popped up. Tegucigalpa. He was the only person I knew who knew the capital of Honduras. I didn't even know the capital of Honduras. And my best friend from high school, her fiancée, was in Brazil, in the Peace Corps. So people knew about it. So I think overall, it was pretty much approval.

[Assistant] It says, how did you prepare yourself and others for entering into two years of Peace Corps service? So I'm thinking of what I went through with my daughter went in the Peace Corps, and there was a whole bunch of things we had to buy and everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I don't, I mean, I think there were some things that we had to buy. I think we, I had a little suitcase for the plane and then my college luggage, which was that old, you know, the soft sided luggage that was a Scotch plaid on the outside and vinyl. But then we had a pack a trunk, so like a steamer trunk that would go later. And I think I put a couple of nursing uniforms and my nursing shoes, my uniform, my cap. I think there was something about there wouldn't be any sanitary supplies available. And, you know, I think tee, you know, T-shirts, shorts. I think I packed a very nice dress and maybe heels, my top siders, which molded in the humidity of Central America. That's, that's what I remember.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Is there any other area of preparation? Did you have very close friends that you had to say goodbye to, to travel to see, you know, before you left or?

[User] No, just, so my house, my housemates in, my housemates in D.C., and the people I met there and my family. I don't remember any big party or anything.

[Assistant] You had said you wanted to be in Central or South America. What about Honduras? Is that a country that you already had in mind as part of that or it just?

[User] Well, not very much. I mean, I think the interesting thing is when I was in high school, I was on the debate team and we had, one of the years, the topic was, should there be a commonwealth of a common market among the states in Central America like there was in Europe. And so we went from school to school debating that topic. And sometimes you'd be on the positive side, sometimes on the negative. So I knew a little bit about Central America, but not very much.

[Assistant] But you had been given that advice by someone to go there, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, just, so my house, my housemates in, my housemates in D.C., and the people I met there and my family. I don't remember any big party or anything.

[Assistant] You had said you wanted to be in Central or South America. What about Honduras? Is that a country that you already had in mind as part of that or it just?

[User] Well, not very much. I mean, I think the interesting thing is when I was in high school, I was on the debate team and we had, one of the years, the topic was, should there be a commonwealth of a common market among the states in Central America like there was in Europe. And so we went from school to school debating that topic. And sometimes you'd be on the positive side, sometimes on the negative. So I knew a little bit about Central America, but not very much.

[Assistant] But you had been given that advice by someone to go there, right?

[User] Right. And, you know, unfortunately, when we were in college, we, our curriculum was so packed, we didn't have any language courses. But I had four years of Latin and two of French in high school. So I don't think I could have predicted how important learning Spanish would be for me and for health care.

[Assistant] Where and how were you trained to prepare you for your assignment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which was a small high school. And I remembered her name from, she would be called to the office. So, um, and they taught us a lot too, about, they had been there about a year and a half then. Because they both spoke so well, they were deeply involved in the community, they were doing a great job. Joe took us around to the fincas and we saw the coffee beans being roasted and we went to the hospital and we came back, finished up. We were sworn in in Tegucigalpa. And I think that was the last time any of us wore our dresses or the guys wore their sport shirts and ties. That was sort of the end of those clothes. And then and then we got our assignments. And Joanne and I were assigned to gather to be in San Pedro Sula, which is a city in the north. For a long time was, in the last couple of decades, has been the highest rated murder city in the world.

[Assistant] Oh, gee.

[User] But it wasn't then.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, so let me ask you some questions. Did you think the language training was adequate?

[User] Oh, yeah, that was really intensive. I mean, I think one of the things was we couldn't figure out, like we didn't see anything written. And so unlike French or some of the other languages, it's all phonetic. But we had to be told it was, I had to be told it was phonetic. Don't worry about, you know, reading it.

[Assistant] Yeah. Interesting. And so in general, what would you say the strengths and weaknesses were of your training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it wasn't then.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, so let me ask you some questions. Did you think the language training was adequate?

[User] Oh, yeah, that was really intensive. I mean, I think one of the things was we couldn't figure out, like we didn't see anything written. And so unlike French or some of the other languages, it's all phonetic. But we had to be told it was, I had to be told it was phonetic. Don't worry about, you know, reading it.

[Assistant] Yeah. Interesting. And so in general, what would you say the strengths and weaknesses were of your training?

[User]
Um, you know, the big thing now is interprofessional team development and working in teams and team cohesion and that. I think we learned that there in a way that was partially may have been unplanned, but then I don't have a training manual, in that because we were isolated, right? We were taken away from all other inputs. We didn't have cell phones. We didn't have, there was no TV. I don't know that the radio was on that much, but we all must, I think we all must have had transistor radios. But then we couldn't speak the language, so we wouldn't know, you know, what they were saying. And so that was part of it. We were put into small groups, but we, I think there were people that were training to go to Bolivia and training to go to Panama.

There was some snideness, like, oh, you should go to a real country. Honduras is not that big a place or. And so we became proud that we were going to Honduras. There was enough pushing and pulling to, um, we formed a very tightly knit group that ended up supporting each other and staying in touch 50 years.

[Assistant] Yeah, that is amazing. Were people deactivated [deselected], as they sometimes say, or asked to leave the training process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but it sort of kind of stopped me from doing things, so I switched jobs into a public health assignment with Caritas.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] So that was the, um, we had a wonderful, wonderful local director. We were called the north coast, that region of Honduras. And Andy Ruby was Honduran. He was completely bilingual. He had a lovely family. And he, uh, he, when I told him how unhappy I was, he helped me get an assignment with Caritas. And that was the Latin American version of Catholic Relief Services. They were largely funded by the Christian Democrats in Europe. And they were, they were trying to make the organization of religion take care of people and bring food to them and bring health care to them and literacy, more than previous missionary experiences.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User]
So they had a program where they had community health workers who went from town to town, very organized, like a network. I mean, they were growing a network. It was very well obviously being established of, um, of delivering surplus food, like the, remember the CARE posters? You know, food that came from CARE, and we would go out into the communities and we would deliver that. The community health workers would teach the moms how to cook with that food, the cereals and grains and stuff like that. They would do what they called charlas, which are little talks about health. We had, I think, three Mickey Mouse movies about vaccinations and clean water and washing that we would show outside at night, you know, on a reel with a generator, because those towns usually turned off their electricity at night.

So I really, I really, really liked that. I liked going out into what we call the campo and visiting different towns. I've got to go all the way out to the Mosquitia and the coast along the, towards the Nicaraguan border. And there were nuns and priests that came from Spain and spent their entire lives there. And that's what they did.

[Assistant] Yeah. Now, this was still under the Peace Corps umbrella?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was still under the Peace Corps. But, you know, these folks were very, very liberal. I mean, I remember being in one small town and along the coast of, the north coast of Honduras, the ethnic group is, uh, is mostly Black people who escaped slavery, either in Jamaica or some of the Caribbean islands. It's called Garifuna. And they have their own language and their own culture. They have some English and there most of the men worked in the shipping. Don't forget, it was a banana republic and the north coast was where the ships used to dock. And so the priest actually asked me if I would talk to a group of the women one night about birth control.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] Now, in 1970, there weren't as many options as there are today. And these poor women really didn't have any options. I mean, we could talk about, you know, rhythm.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] But they didn't have access to diaphragms. They didn't have access to oral pills. I think, and actually, one of the community health workers told me that in El Salvador, they were testing this shot that would last for three months. Well, that turned out to be the early research on Depo-Provera, which became a very common type of birth control that we used in the United States for a long time. It was one of the first long acting birth control. But who knew that probably unaware people were being tested in Latin America?

[Assistant] Hmm. Yeah. I've always wondered about that. What were your living arrangements through this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So when we first got to San Pedro, it was by word of mouth. We'd find a place and people recommended that I go to, um, visit a family called Cisneros, who lived near one of the public schools and in a nice neighborhood, but not a fancy neighborhood. And Beatrice Cisneros was probably in her late fifties, early sixties, and she was called Dona Ticha. And she had, she lived there with her son and his wife and granddaughter. She had another son or two who had emigrated to New Orleans. A lot of people went to New Orleans from San Pedro. And she had a two story house. And upstairs they, um, they rented me a bedroom that had a separate entrance and a set of stairs.

I can't remember what my rent was, but I, it included two meals a day or two or three meals a day. So I think I gained about 10 pounds or more because I loved the food and the sour cream that, the crema went on everything and the tortillas were all handmade and it was very good. There was a single bathroom downstairs and it sort of had been retrofitted into the house. So it was like wood, like scrap wood, and there were chinks in it. And I'd go and there was a pile of newspaper squares to use for toilet paper. And I remember the little girl, she must have been about nine. She would peep through and try and watch me, like how does the gringa go to the bathroom? And her prior tenants had been Mormon missionaries, so she wasn't used to my going out as much as, because the missionaries didn't go out at night.

[Assistant] Didn't go out at all.

[User] They did everything two by two. But she was lovely and my mother actually wrote a letter and had a friend translate it and wrote to Dona Ticha saying how much she appreciated her taking me in.

[Assistant] Oh, isn't that cute?

[User] Isn't that nice?

[Assistant] That's very nice. Yeah. And your typical workday and leisure day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did everything two by two. But she was lovely and my mother actually wrote a letter and had a friend translate it and wrote to Dona Ticha saying how much she appreciated her taking me in.

[Assistant] Oh, isn't that cute?

[User] Isn't that nice?

[Assistant] That's very nice. Yeah. And your typical workday and leisure day?

[User] Well, I think the typical workday was somewhat different from the U.S., where we went to work from 7:00 to 3:00 or 8:00 to 4:00, because the day was definitely divided into parts and most people went to work for 4 hours, then came home and had their main meal and siesta time, and then went back 2 or 3 hours later. So that was a whole different thing to get used to. It was a long way to go to work, when I worked for Caritas, it was on the other side of the city, so it was a couple of bus rides or spending my money on a taxi to go back and forth that distance.

[Assistant] You had to go back to your place where you were living?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Isn't that nice?

[Assistant] That's very nice. Yeah. And your typical workday and leisure day?

[User] Well, I think the typical workday was somewhat different from the U.S., where we went to work from 7:00 to 3:00 or 8:00 to 4:00, because the day was definitely divided into parts and most people went to work for 4 hours, then came home and had their main meal and siesta time, and then went back 2 or 3 hours later. So that was a whole different thing to get used to. It was a long way to go to work, when I worked for Caritas, it was on the other side of the city, so it was a couple of bus rides or spending my money on a taxi to go back and forth that distance.

[Assistant] You had to go back to your place where you were living?

[User] Well, no, but there was no place to eat there. And everybody else went home. Yeah.

[Assistant] And your relationship with country nationals and other PCs or PC staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I think the first vacation I took was, um, I went with another volunteer that we were just friends, we weren't involved, and he was finishing up his service. So we, um, and a lot of people seemed to, they didn't want to go home right away. So he was going to go all the way down around South America and then home. And so I said I'd go partway. So we went and we went together as far south as Bogota, and we started by hitchhiking on the Pan-American Highway.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] And then I think at some point we had to buy a plane ticket. Maybe we took it all the way to Panama, but you couldn't get from Panama to Barranquilla, Colombia, by land. It was closed and you couldn't get a visa to get into Colombia without having a ticket out of Colombia. They were onto us gringos.

[Assistant] I guess.

[User] They didn't want any illegal immigrants coming from the north. So we had to buy a ticket out. Now for me that was okay because I was going back north, but Cavall had to buy a ticket he wasn't going to use I think. We went to Barranquilla and there's a colonial city on the north coast to Medellin, which was then a very, very pretty city and still is probably. But it was an area that was totally managed by the drug cartels two decades ago.

[Assistant] I recognize the names, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then to Bogota. And I do have a strong memory of taking a bus from Medellin to Bogota over land all night long, filled with people and roosters and chickens. They weren't all on the roof either, some inside, and just everybody slept next to each other, you know, it was all squished in and, um. But we got there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that was a vacation. Another one, um, the Christmas of 1970. So a year later than our swearing in. A lot of us went home for Christmas and I did. I think we had two or three weeks. One couple that had developed a relationship, they went to see her dad in Connecticut that they were going to get married. And he insisted, well, they were going to do it right then. They weren't going back to Honduras unmarried. So all of a sudden there was a marriage in Connecticut and everybody got together for that. And then we went back and I think that was the last vacation. But weekends were time off, you know, it wasn't. And Peace Corps brought us together, I think, for July 4th parties.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] In the middle of the country, a place called Comayagua, which was the old capital. And maybe one or two group meetings that we had.

[Assistant] Um. You. Did you extend for a third year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was a vacation. Another one, um, the Christmas of 1970. So a year later than our swearing in. A lot of us went home for Christmas and I did. I think we had two or three weeks. One couple that had developed a relationship, they went to see her dad in Connecticut that they were going to get married. And he insisted, well, they were going to do it right then. They weren't going back to Honduras unmarried. So all of a sudden there was a marriage in Connecticut and everybody got together for that. And then we went back and I think that was the last vacation. But weekends were time off, you know, it wasn't. And Peace Corps brought us together, I think, for July 4th parties.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] In the middle of the country, a place called Comayagua, which was the old capital. And maybe one or two group meetings that we had.

[Assistant] Um. You. Did you extend for a third year?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No. So it's just between the first and second year you made this job change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the middle of the country, a place called Comayagua, which was the old capital. And maybe one or two group meetings that we had.

[Assistant] Um. You. Did you extend for a third year?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No. So it's just between the first and second year you made this job change?

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your living changed accordingly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So your living changed accordingly?

[User] Well, I, I don't know that I, I was still in the same city.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So I didn't have to move. I mean, I moved a couple of times just to be in a. One time I live with an Australian nurse and a Honduran nurse in an apartment, and because Joanne didn't want to leave the family she was with, because we were all encouraged to stay with the family as long as possible. And she was better at that than I was. But, um, and then. And but that was still in San Pedro. My mother came down to visit and, um, oh, another time one of my high school friends came down and we did take a side trip to Guatemala. And I went to Copán. I went to Copán with someone from the medical team, from the Duke group, on a motorcycle, which was.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I, I don't know that I, I was still in the same city.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So I didn't have to move. I mean, I moved a couple of times just to be in a. One time I live with an Australian nurse and a Honduran nurse in an apartment, and because Joanne didn't want to leave the family she was with, because we were all encouraged to stay with the family as long as possible. And she was better at that than I was. But, um, and then. And but that was still in San Pedro. My mother came down to visit and, um, oh, another time one of my high school friends came down and we did take a side trip to Guatemala. And I went to Copán. I went to Copán with someone from the medical team, from the Duke group, on a motorcycle, which was.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] I know, that was interesting. And but Copán is absolutely incredibly a beautiful, spiritual place that is a jewel.

[Assistant] Hmm. Um. What do you think were your main accomplishments looking back at these two different assignments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Growing up a little bit, I think. I think I grew up a lot. And I think one thing about learning how to speak Spanish is that learning to listen, because you have to really pay attention when someone was talking to you to kind of get what it was. And I think it taught me how to pay attention when someone was talking to me. It made me a better nurse. The language is an incredible gift because every job I had up until almost the last one I got because I was bilingual.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] So when I came to Boston, I got a job at what was then Harvard Community Health Plan in their Mission Hill clinic, because it was a mixed community.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And then I worked in the Point neighborhood in Salem, and I spent 20 years in Chelsea. And I, the upside of it was that I learned that I could do things to help the people that came from those countries more than I could do anything to help when I was a young person and as a volunteer.

[Assistant] Hmm. That's interesting. Um. Do you have any regrets?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I mean, I'm sorry we've lost a few people that have died. And it's always sorry. It's always sad to hear that.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Because I think we were so close in, like when you're a real minority, you stick together.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know, and I don't regret that I did it. I regret that I wasn't better prepared, that I couldn't have done more in terms of like my friends that had more experience became ER nurses or, you know, you know, that could help more with the skills than I had. But I always have liked working in the community so I think that was probably me anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah. It was your strength anyway. Let's see. And I think you just explained, but you may have something to add. How did your Peace Corps experience influence your plans for the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I think we were so close in, like when you're a real minority, you stick together.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] You know, and I don't regret that I did it. I regret that I wasn't better prepared, that I couldn't have done more in terms of like my friends that had more experience became ER nurses or, you know, you know, that could help more with the skills than I had. But I always have liked working in the community so I think that was probably me anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah. It was your strength anyway. Let's see. And I think you just explained, but you may have something to add. How did your Peace Corps experience influence your plans for the future?

[User] Um, I think. Well, I think I felt like I had traveled, so I accomplished that goal. I didn't turn into being someone who would always travel, like some people go on and work in international organizations and stuff. I wasn't particularly interested in doing that, so I was pretty much ready to, when I came home, I looked at jobs in D.C. Peace Corps then had like a re-immersion program for a week or two in D.C. I remember going with some other people, and it was down in DuPont Circle, and it was two weeks of, one or two? I think it was two weeks of cultural immersion. And between 1969 and 1971, the U.S. had changed tremendously.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness, that's interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, people I knew in college that would never touch marijuana, thought those people were awful, were now offering someone a joint. But beyond that, I mean, the, one of the things they had us to do was spend a shift in a D.C. police car. So this other former volunteer and I get, oh, Jane from Brooklyn, I think we were together, get in the back of the car and the police had never heard of the Peace Corps. So there's a divergence there, right? And they were going out into the District, into projects, doing domestic violence calls or, I mean, at one point, the fellow in the front seat said, I think you better get down under the seats and I thought, oh my God. I mean, it was more dangerous than anything I'd been involved in in Honduras.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that kind of thing. People came and gave us talks about LGBTQ issues, which nobody talked about before. I mean, nobody talked about gender orientation in that I remember, certainly not formally, and those kinds of things. And when I finally decided to come to Boston, when the new emerging field was becoming a nurse practitioner, so I was able to shift into that and become one of the early nurse practitioners.

[Assistant] Yes. And you mentioned the language connection, which is very important. Overall, how do you assess your service in light of the three goals of the Peace Corps? Which is to provide technical assistance where required, when requested, to promote better understanding of Americans, or to promote better understanding of other people by Americans.

[User] So, uh, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but I don't remember anybody ever mentioning, uh.

[Assistant] I think it's very new.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And because the veterans would say, don't turn around, don't say anything.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] That, um, and that, we could present ourselves as being men and women who had a little bit of earnestness about us might have been helpful.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I think in terms of understanding other people, that, um, as I said about my experience in Puerto Rico, never experiencing the, the hospitality and the friendliness of people who are Latino and never experiencing also just the poverty that existed in Honduras or the poorness of health care or the illiteracy. That still gives me incredible respect for the people that struggle so hard to get here.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think in terms of understanding other people, that, um, as I said about my experience in Puerto Rico, never experiencing the, the hospitality and the friendliness of people who are Latino and never experiencing also just the poverty that existed in Honduras or the poorness of health care or the illiteracy. That still gives me incredible respect for the people that struggle so hard to get here.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Have you continued any kind of involvement with your country of service?

[User]
Um, not directly with Honduras. I did go, I went to Honduras sometime around 2002. My daughter had decided that she wanted to go live on Utila, which is one of the Bay Islands, for a couple of years. So like my mother, I went down to find out what was going on. And at that point we were told, frankly, not to go into San Pedro, that it was very, very dangerous. I had, I worked with a woman in Chelsea who was Honduran, whose husband had gone home after one of the hurricanes to help his family, and he'd been robbed and shot. So I thought if they were going to do that to him, I didn't want to be there for that.

So I've worked a little bit with the Massachusetts, uh, very little bit with the MIRA group [Massachusetts Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition]. But in the communities that I worked in, like in Salem, I helped to train hospital workers on using interpreters and a program for kids in the high school. I've worked on developing curricula for, mostly for immigrants, I would say, more than going back. And I haven't done any kind of medical trips.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I'm still involved with my group, yes.

[Assistant] Yes. Or contact with people from that country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm still involved with my group, yes.

[Assistant] Yes. Or contact with people from that country?

[User] Oh, lots of contact with people from Honduras. I mean, the Honduras and the people that, so like the different communities, like there are a lot of Dominicans in Salem. There were in Chelsea, there were people who started coming from Puerto Rico maybe in the fifties. And then in the nineties there were big groups that came from Central America. There would be, and then Chelsea is a gateway city. There'd be people who came from the Balkans and people who came from other places of war.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So the city is very used to new immigrants, but there would be issues among the immigrant groups. Like, we're citizens, you're not, stuff like that. Awareness of that.

[Assistant] Oh dear. Have you been involved with third goal activities? That would be the NPCA, I assume, and their.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the city is very used to new immigrants, but there would be issues among the immigrant groups. Like, we're citizens, you're not, stuff like that. Awareness of that.

[Assistant] Oh dear. Have you been involved with third goal activities? That would be the NPCA, I assume, and their.

[User] Other people by Americans. No, I think that in the, if I was the only one in a clinical group that spoke Spanish, I had to explain that role, what it meant to that person. Like for a long time, I had a patient from Mission Hill who was Guatemalan, and she had mitral valve problems, heart valve problems. And I think in the time that I knew her, she had three valve replacements. Now, this was in the early stages of valve replacements when they were using pig valves and stuff like that. But she was getting them done at the Brigham, and the physicians would get so upset when she got pregnant. And that was like culturally not feasible for her to say no, in a way. I mean, having a good conversation with her husband might have helped or might not have, but it wasn't like she was trying to sabotage their hard work.

[Assistant] Yeah, no.

[User] So I think you become an ambassador for the people that you're trying to help and trying to get your colleagues to do that too.

[Assistant] Right. And third goal here is capitalized. But there's all the work you did by speaking Spanish and being involved in those projects to me would also include that. What has been the effect of your PC service on your life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I think you become an ambassador for the people that you're trying to help and trying to get your colleagues to do that too.

[Assistant] Right. And third goal here is capitalized. But there's all the work you did by speaking Spanish and being involved in those projects to me would also include that. What has been the effect of your PC service on your life?

[User]
Well, other than all the work things I talked about. So the irony. So one of my Peace Corps friends grew up in Reading, Massachusetts. And when I came to Boston, I, um, I came, I stayed with two of my Georgetown friends that had been living here a couple of years. And Tom invited me and them to go to the St. Patrick's Day parade. I think at this point, I already had gotten a job and I was to start like the third Monday in March or something like that. And so all the time we've been in the Peace Corps, it was the beaches is never as good as they are in Cape Cod. You know, life is never as good as it is in Massachusetts. And St. Patrick's Day in New York is nothing compared to Boston.

Now, I was very skeptical of this, but so I went and I took the T. I think I, they lived, he and his friends lived in Allston. So I went to Allston and we took the T to South Boston and we went to this German bar in South Boston called Amrheins. And little did I know that the tradition had nothing to do with the parade. Everybody spent the day inside the bar drinking. The cop at the door was named John Law, and one of. I met my husband that day.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] And he had grown up with this fellow, my Peace Corps friend. So that was a very huge influence over my life. We've now been married 45 years. So that, that's one huge thing. And I think being aware of how the rest of the world works. And with a little maybe more humility than I had when I was, before I did it.

[Assistant] Hmm. Well, those are the questions on this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, other than all the work things I talked about. So the irony. So one of my Peace Corps friends grew up in Reading, Massachusetts. And when I came to Boston, I, um, I came, I stayed with two of my Georgetown friends that had been living here a couple of years. And Tom invited me and them to go to the St. Patrick's Day parade. I think at this point, I already had gotten a job and I was to start like the third Monday in March or something like that. And so all the time we've been in the Peace Corps, it was the beaches is never as good as they are in Cape Cod. You know, life is never as good as it is in Massachusetts. And St. Patrick's Day in New York is nothing compared to Boston.

Now, I was very skeptical of this, but so I went and I took the T. I think I, they lived, he and his friends lived in Allston. So I went to Allston and we took the T to South Boston and we went to this German bar in South Boston called Amrheins. And little did I know that the tradition had nothing to do with the parade. Everybody spent the day inside the bar drinking. The cop at the door was named John Law, and one of. I met my husband that day.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness.

[User] And he had grown up with this fellow, my Peace Corps friend. So that was a very huge influence over my life. We've now been married 45 years. So that, that's one huge thing. And I think being aware of how the rest of the world works. And with a little maybe more humility than I had when I was, before I did it.

[Assistant] Hmm. Well, those are the questions on this.

[User] Oh good.

[Assistant] Unless there's a specific topic that you would be interested in pursuing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he had grown up with this fellow, my Peace Corps friend. So that was a very huge influence over my life. We've now been married 45 years. So that, that's one huge thing. And I think being aware of how the rest of the world works. And with a little maybe more humility than I had when I was, before I did it.

[Assistant] Hmm. Well, those are the questions on this.

[User] Oh good.

[Assistant] Unless there's a specific topic that you would be interested in pursuing.

[User] I feel like I've talked a lot.

[Assistant] Oh, I think you've done a fabulous job. Much more detail than I would do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh good.

[Assistant] Unless there's a specific topic that you would be interested in pursuing.

[User] I feel like I've talked a lot.

[Assistant] Oh, I think you've done a fabulous job. Much more detail than I would do.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Did you have any health issues while you're in the Peace Corps yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I feel like I've talked a lot.

[Assistant] Oh, I think you've done a fabulous job. Much more detail than I would do.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] Did you have any health issues while you're in the Peace Corps yourself?

[User]
I think I got a lot of rashes and things like that, skin things. We had a great doctor, Dr. Arias, Luis Bueso Arias his name was, and his family was some of the leaders in the Democratic, or the more liberal parties in Honduras at that time. And there was. So when I was working for Caritas, we had this white jeep pickup with a standard shift, you know, on the wheel. So it was the letter H. So I had to learn how to drive that. And so it was not uncommon to ride in the back of the jeep. And one day we were in the city and the fellow who was driving ran through a stop sign and a policeman on a motorcycle hit the back of the jeep. And so I was thrown out of it and landed on the ground.

Now, I wasn't knocked out or anything, but I was like, oh, I was abraded and bleeding all over. And I think I kind of retreated to like a third grade level and we went to the doctor's office and Dr. Arias calmed me down. He sent me to a private clinic. We didn't have to go to the dreaded public hospital. And I spent a couple of days there getting taken care of. And I think it was probably just what I needed, but I didn't have anything serious wrong with me. I don't remember many people having that happen, um, so that was my experience of health care.

[Assistant] And your contact with home? You talked about calling once a week when you're in training, but did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because that was their plane, you know, and it was just like, oh yeah, they don't, you know, it was, it sort of. It made you think about the United States in a different way. One of the saddest days was the day of Kent State when we heard about the murders at Kent State, and we thought about how horrible things were at home. That that could have been us.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] So we weren't that divorced from politics.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Um. Let's see. Any other topics? It definitely seemed to fit in with your life. That's what my reaction was. Um. Okay. So I assume we can.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Uh, complete this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was. When I went to JSC—I say went to. I was a JSC employee. I think early on when we decided to have a Production Ops [Operations] office and we knew production would be at Kennedy, Skip Hatfield, our Program Manager at the time, wanted to make sure that the person leading production really was accountable to the program. So, I rebadged from a KSC employee to a Johnson employee, but I actually remained living in Florida. I did that right up through the cancelation of Constellation. At that timeframe there was a person in the reverse situation who was a KSC employee who had lived his whole life at Johnson who was supporting the Ground Ops Program at the time. What they had us do was do a badge swap, where I got a KSC badge back and the person in Houston got a JSC badge just in case the programs got canceled so we weren’t going to have to move around.\n\n Of course after Orion came back after Constellation, I had a lot of discussions with Mark Geyer at the time about whether he felt the need for me to rebadge, and he didn’t, so I continued to do the same job, just with a KSC badge.

[Assistant] That is when you became Manager of Production Operations at KSC?

[User] Right, yes, when I got my JSC badge that first time was when I became the Manager of that.

[Assistant] It was just the badge switch then.

[User] Yes, it was just a badge switch. So I’ve had that position both as a JSC and KSC employee.

[Assistant] As you mentioned, I think in May 2011 they announced the MPCV [Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle], which became Orion, so that work again changed. I know like you said there was talk of using it for different things, and then it finally jelled into one vehicle that could be used for multiple things. If you want to talk about just that time period once we knew we were going to have Orion and up through the ability to fly that EFT-1 mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly, because presumably, with a contractor, you have an award fee and those kinds of things, and so you can look for innovation. Of course, the trick is to get the NASA people not to try to tell the contractors how to do it, but just be able to understand what is needed well enough to be able to describe what is needed, not how to do it. So I suppose that was always the balance. Balancing what NASA needed, what kind of core skills NASA needed, and doing it the most effective way within the boundaries that NASA's operating under.

[Assistant] Well, you were certainly thrown many avenues to go. Did you have any regrets at any point in time that you came to Lancaster instead of going to Washington?

[User] To Washington?

[Assistant] Didn’t you want to work on your master’s up there?

[User] Right, right. That's right. Well, I did get the master's eventually. But no, I have absolutely no regrets. When I first went to NASA I knew nothing about NASA. I just thought, okay, I'm going to work for the government and that'll be good for a year or so. Because I thought of the government as something like the post office. Not to pick on the post office, but at the time, I thought, well, you work with these gray file cabinets and that's it. But it was always very exciting and stimulating and really, really kept me busy, too.\n\n I was mentioning I played bridge with Harriet Smith when I was a computer programmer because we actually took lunch breaks [then], but not for the last twenty years. I mean, you just do things all the time [as a supervisor].

[Assistant] And just thinking about the social differences between twenty years ago, or during those twenty years that, for instance, you would take lunch and play bridge. Now people don't play cards at lunch.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Washington?

[Assistant] Didn’t you want to work on your master’s up there?

[User] Right, right. That's right. Well, I did get the master's eventually. But no, I have absolutely no regrets. When I first went to NASA I knew nothing about NASA. I just thought, okay, I'm going to work for the government and that'll be good for a year or so. Because I thought of the government as something like the post office. Not to pick on the post office, but at the time, I thought, well, you work with these gray file cabinets and that's it. But it was always very exciting and stimulating and really, really kept me busy, too.\n\n I was mentioning I played bridge with Harriet Smith when I was a computer programmer because we actually took lunch breaks [then], but not for the last twenty years. I mean, you just do things all the time [as a supervisor].

[Assistant] And just thinking about the social differences between twenty years ago, or during those twenty years that, for instance, you would take lunch and play bridge. Now people don't play cards at lunch.

[User] I think all those are gone, and at that time, I think, down in flight ops [operations] they had a Hearts game at lunch. It was all part of it. They had a [summer] NASA picnic and I think they still do but I don't think it's the same bonding thing it was then. Used to have a yearly Christmas dance and I don't think they do that every year now.

[Assistant] Was it more of a family-type atmosphere during that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right. That's right. Well, I did get the master's eventually. But no, I have absolutely no regrets. When I first went to NASA I knew nothing about NASA. I just thought, okay, I'm going to work for the government and that'll be good for a year or so. Because I thought of the government as something like the post office. Not to pick on the post office, but at the time, I thought, well, you work with these gray file cabinets and that's it. But it was always very exciting and stimulating and really, really kept me busy, too.\n\n I was mentioning I played bridge with Harriet Smith when I was a computer programmer because we actually took lunch breaks [then], but not for the last twenty years. I mean, you just do things all the time [as a supervisor].

[Assistant] And just thinking about the social differences between twenty years ago, or during those twenty years that, for instance, you would take lunch and play bridge. Now people don't play cards at lunch.

[User] I think all those are gone, and at that time, I think, down in flight ops [operations] they had a Hearts game at lunch. It was all part of it. They had a [summer] NASA picnic and I think they still do but I don't think it's the same bonding thing it was then. Used to have a yearly Christmas dance and I don't think they do that every year now.

[Assistant] Was it more of a family-type atmosphere during that time period?

[User] Yes. Well, funding was all NASA and there was not as much turnover then. Now it's not all NASA. There's lots of contractors, too, and they're also coming to these same [functions], which is fine, but there's more turnover, too, because contracts change and a lot of people continue, but there's a lot of different people who don't. Even pilots change. Various pilots have changed. Are you going to talk to Marta [Bohn-] Meyer?

[Assistant] We hope to at some point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think all those are gone, and at that time, I think, down in flight ops [operations] they had a Hearts game at lunch. It was all part of it. They had a [summer] NASA picnic and I think they still do but I don't think it's the same bonding thing it was then. Used to have a yearly Christmas dance and I don't think they do that every year now.

[Assistant] Was it more of a family-type atmosphere during that time period?

[User] Yes. Well, funding was all NASA and there was not as much turnover then. Now it's not all NASA. There's lots of contractors, too, and they're also coming to these same [functions], which is fine, but there's more turnover, too, because contracts change and a lot of people continue, but there's a lot of different people who don't. Even pilots change. Various pilots have changed. Are you going to talk to Marta [Bohn-] Meyer?

[Assistant] We hope to at some point.

[User] Because there are some people who have really caused an impact over the years. I've seen their role change a lot.

[Assistant] I think it's another change for you, where I imagine you had mostly male pilots and now you're able to work with—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, funding was all NASA and there was not as much turnover then. Now it's not all NASA. There's lots of contractors, too, and they're also coming to these same [functions], which is fine, but there's more turnover, too, because contracts change and a lot of people continue, but there's a lot of different people who don't. Even pilots change. Various pilots have changed. Are you going to talk to Marta [Bohn-] Meyer?

[Assistant] We hope to at some point.

[User] Because there are some people who have really caused an impact over the years. I've seen their role change a lot.

[Assistant] I think it's another change for you, where I imagine you had mostly male pilots and now you're able to work with—

[User] They still have only male pilots, test pilots, but Marta is their supervisor. She's a pilot. She flew or does fly the SR-71. Actually, [the SR-71 is] inactive now, but [Marta flew] as a flight test engineer, not as the primary pilot. But she is a pilot personally for pleasure, but she's not a test pilot. Could be a flight test engineer. I'm not putting her down. She's outstanding, and she's been everywhere. And people like Harriet Smith, who became the first program manager.\n\n In my area, it wasn't nearly as innovative. I mean, computer programmers. It was an area for women that had already been established somehow. But [when] Harriet became program manager, there were all men before that. So we have, I believe—I don't know exactly what the mixture is out there now, but I know Marta is probably our most accomplished female.

[Assistant] We hope to get to her. Part of our project is based on funding and the direction on this project is given through the history office at Headquarters, but we always give them suggestions and hopefully they'll march on and do more.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they probably have a lot of her history anyway because she's been a poster girl, and rightly so. She's very, very effective with young people. I'm involved with the American Association of University Women and also the junior college now. They have a science odyssey in January and a special program for sixth, seventh, and eighth graders, and Marta has always been the featured motivational speaker, and it's terrific.\n\n And a lot of the Dryden folk come out, like people from the range come out and they fly a mission and they set up a control center at the college so the kids can talk to the pilots and they see what he's doing and talk to him and ask him why he's doing this and that and the other thing, so it's pretty neat.

[Assistant] What else do you do? You mentioned you were consulting for some other companies as well.

[User] Well, yes. That's just some this year. It's just a little bit of consulting. I haven't generally been doing that. What I do is I work part-time at the college, teach English as a second language, which is a complete change. Yes, it is, and I really enjoy it. I admire the—this is all adults, these are all adult immigrants. Terrific work ethics. These people have worked so hard. They've raised a family. They have kids, the kids are already fully bilingual and now it's their turn. Anyway, I enjoy that. I've been doing that for five years.

[Assistant] Have you been back to Michigan very often since you left the very small town of a thousand that's still a thousand?

[User] I still have my mother there and one of my sisters and a brother, so I go back at least once a year, sometimes twice.

[Assistant] Quite a climate difference from there to here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes. That's just some this year. It's just a little bit of consulting. I haven't generally been doing that. What I do is I work part-time at the college, teach English as a second language, which is a complete change. Yes, it is, and I really enjoy it. I admire the—this is all adults, these are all adult immigrants. Terrific work ethics. These people have worked so hard. They've raised a family. They have kids, the kids are already fully bilingual and now it's their turn. Anyway, I enjoy that. I've been doing that for five years.

[Assistant] Have you been back to Michigan very often since you left the very small town of a thousand that's still a thousand?

[User] I still have my mother there and one of my sisters and a brother, so I go back at least once a year, sometimes twice.

[Assistant] Quite a climate difference from there to here.

[User] Right. I'm not moving back.

[Assistant] You'll take the sand over the snow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I still have my mother there and one of my sisters and a brother, so I go back at least once a year, sometimes twice.

[Assistant] Quite a climate difference from there to here.

[User] Right. I'm not moving back.

[Assistant] You'll take the sand over the snow.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you have other plans in the future to possibly do more work with NASA or some of the contractors to kind of keep in touch of what the changes are going there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I'm not moving back.

[Assistant] You'll take the sand over the snow.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do you have other plans in the future to possibly do more work with NASA or some of the contractors to kind of keep in touch of what the changes are going there?

[User] Probably not. Right now I can be of use to this particular contractor because they're competing for this contract, which I was the mother of, so to speak. But other than that, I'm not strong technically anymore. I'm not current in a lot of the things, which is fine. It ended up being stressful and also, even though it sounds like a lot of variety, there was a lot of repetition as far as the management. It may be different people but it's similar personnel things and there's just so much bureaucracy. The agency gets older and there's just more and more bureaucracy.\n\n I guess I was pretty idealistic, too, in the beginning, and by the time I quit I wasn't nearly as idealistic, and I didn't think people could walk on water. I was always very deferential to my leaders, so to speak, and then after a while you see all these silly things, sometimes. Not all these silly things, but things. Or why did they do that?\n\n So I think I was ready to go, and I do enjoy the complete change. So many people go back and do the same thing they did, but from the contractor's side, I'm not really interested in that.

[Assistant] Well, if you'd like, what I'd like to do right now is just take a small break and we can stop for a few minutes and then come back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About an hour.

[Assistant] Oh, how exciting.

[User] Yes, it was great. Let's see, so as far as pure thrill, that was it, and then also the other things I've already talked about, just fly-bys and things like that. So when it came right down to it, the real thrills did have directly to do with aircraft, or the Shuttle landings. One July 4th, Ronald Reagan was there, President Reagan, and we had Enterprise, which is the approach and landing test vehicle, and one Shuttle had just landed, and another one was just taking off to go back to the Cape, and the President and half a million people, or whatever it was. It was just like, oh my God, who wouldn't want to work here?

[Assistant] I imagine when the media came, too, for the landings in the early days of the Shuttle system, it must have made almost a chaos at the Center because it's such a small group that you were and then all of a sudden you have all these strangers on base.

[User] We would drive in early to work so we wouldn't get caught in the traffic and things like that.

[Assistant] During your time, I guess, in the early years that you were there, I know some of the NASA budget changed, and a lot of the funding was going toward the manned space flights. Did you feel that in your work as well? Were you impacted by that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it was great. Let's see, so as far as pure thrill, that was it, and then also the other things I've already talked about, just fly-bys and things like that. So when it came right down to it, the real thrills did have directly to do with aircraft, or the Shuttle landings. One July 4th, Ronald Reagan was there, President Reagan, and we had Enterprise, which is the approach and landing test vehicle, and one Shuttle had just landed, and another one was just taking off to go back to the Cape, and the President and half a million people, or whatever it was. It was just like, oh my God, who wouldn't want to work here?

[Assistant] I imagine when the media came, too, for the landings in the early days of the Shuttle system, it must have made almost a chaos at the Center because it's such a small group that you were and then all of a sudden you have all these strangers on base.

[User] We would drive in early to work so we wouldn't get caught in the traffic and things like that.

[Assistant] During your time, I guess, in the early years that you were there, I know some of the NASA budget changed, and a lot of the funding was going toward the manned space flights. Did you feel that in your work as well? Were you impacted by that decision?

[User] Yes. We weren't able to expand things or do all the things we wanted to do. In some cases, some of the facilities we were going to build were delayed or canceled. Some of the flight projects were canceled and some experiments were canceled. That was generally hiring freezes and those kinds of things.\n\n So for a while, in the late sixties, I don't think we were even recruiting people, or very minimal. Because there was one period, early seventies I think, where we went years without hiring anybody.

[Assistant] But were there new projects introduced at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We would drive in early to work so we wouldn't get caught in the traffic and things like that.

[Assistant] During your time, I guess, in the early years that you were there, I know some of the NASA budget changed, and a lot of the funding was going toward the manned space flights. Did you feel that in your work as well? Were you impacted by that decision?

[User] Yes. We weren't able to expand things or do all the things we wanted to do. In some cases, some of the facilities we were going to build were delayed or canceled. Some of the flight projects were canceled and some experiments were canceled. That was generally hiring freezes and those kinds of things.\n\n So for a while, in the late sixties, I don't think we were even recruiting people, or very minimal. Because there was one period, early seventies I think, where we went years without hiring anybody.

[Assistant] But were there new projects introduced at that time?

[User] Yes. There was always a joke, in the sense of well, being more efficient. And you'd have some of these engineers, you know, they'd be assigned to three or four different projects, and you can't—like 10 percent of the time on this and 10 percent of the time on that. Time doesn't go down to 10 percent. You can't really be very efficient on 10 percent. So a lot of people worked really hard and in very difficult circumstances. I'm talking about people all across the Center. A lot of overtime.

[Assistant] And that wears people down physically and mentally sometimes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We weren't able to expand things or do all the things we wanted to do. In some cases, some of the facilities we were going to build were delayed or canceled. Some of the flight projects were canceled and some experiments were canceled. That was generally hiring freezes and those kinds of things.\n\n So for a while, in the late sixties, I don't think we were even recruiting people, or very minimal. Because there was one period, early seventies I think, where we went years without hiring anybody.

[Assistant] But were there new projects introduced at that time?

[User] Yes. There was always a joke, in the sense of well, being more efficient. And you'd have some of these engineers, you know, they'd be assigned to three or four different projects, and you can't—like 10 percent of the time on this and 10 percent of the time on that. Time doesn't go down to 10 percent. You can't really be very efficient on 10 percent. So a lot of people worked really hard and in very difficult circumstances. I'm talking about people all across the Center. A lot of overtime.

[Assistant] And that wears people down physically and mentally sometimes.

[User] But then there are some people who thrive on it. One of my bosses, Archie Moore, the guy just loved being out there. I mean, working was his hobby. In retrospect, just being there doesn't necessarily mean you're getting good work done, but he was always there. There early and whatnot.

[Assistant] I was wondering, you started there in '65 and you were there during relatively turbulent times, as far as the country was concerned, with Vietnam and, of course, everything that was going on with the protests. Some of the people we've interviewed that were working at Johnson during that time period have talked about how they were so focused on what they were doing, they weren't even aware of the outside world, and every once in a while they'd stick their head up and realize some of the things that were going on. Was that the same way at Dryden, since you were doing pretty focused work there, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, thank you and I appreciate you coming.

[Assistant] Are there some other things that you would like to share with us before we close this afternoon?

[User] No, I think that pretty much covers it. I guess, I did get an exceptional service medal. That was one of my proud moments.

[Assistant] Oh. Well, tell about that before we close for the day.

[User] It was just one of those NASA medals. But every year, they have Dryden awards and they have NASA-wide awards, and so in [19] '92 I got an exceptional service medal and I was very proud of that. It was for [providing] data systems, flight test range facilities and teams to support experimental aircraft and the Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] Is that given here at Dryden?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I think that pretty much covers it. I guess, I did get an exceptional service medal. That was one of my proud moments.

[Assistant] Oh. Well, tell about that before we close for the day.

[User] It was just one of those NASA medals. But every year, they have Dryden awards and they have NASA-wide awards, and so in [19] '92 I got an exceptional service medal and I was very proud of that. It was for [providing] data systems, flight test range facilities and teams to support experimental aircraft and the Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] Is that given here at Dryden?

[User] At Dryden, but they have Headquarters people come out. It wasn't the administrator. Who was it? I forget, but anyway. So that made me feel good.

[Assistant] And it was not too long after that then you retired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was just one of those NASA medals. But every year, they have Dryden awards and they have NASA-wide awards, and so in [19] '92 I got an exceptional service medal and I was very proud of that. It was for [providing] data systems, flight test range facilities and teams to support experimental aircraft and the Space Shuttle.

[Assistant] Is that given here at Dryden?

[User] At Dryden, but they have Headquarters people come out. It wasn't the administrator. Who was it? I forget, but anyway. So that made me feel good.

[Assistant] And it was not too long after that then you retired?

[User] Yes. May 3, 1993. So I was early out. I guess I was just getting tired of the people management part but that was certainly the only thing I was qualified to do at that point, too. So I said, "I want a change while I'm still young," so I did.

[Assistant] It sounds like you're keeping very busy with a new variety of assignments for yourself.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At Dryden, but they have Headquarters people come out. It wasn't the administrator. Who was it? I forget, but anyway. So that made me feel good.

[Assistant] And it was not too long after that then you retired?

[User] Yes. May 3, 1993. So I was early out. I guess I was just getting tired of the people management part but that was certainly the only thing I was qualified to do at that point, too. So I said, "I want a change while I'm still young," so I did.

[Assistant] It sounds like you're keeping very busy with a new variety of assignments for yourself.

[User] It's easy to keep busy. And I do enjoy teaching, teaching the adults. They're so appreciative. I guess that's one of the differences. When you're responsible for people, you hear about so many bad things, and people are always having trouble. You keep fixing things and doing things, but there's always somebody who's got a problem. But with the people in teaching, they're there because they want to be. They don't have to be there. And they're so appreciative, my God. So I guess I like that.

[Assistant] Well, we wish you well with that and wish them well because I'm sure you'll open a lot of doors for them with your teaching, and I know that's very rewarding for you to be able to see them blossom and take off and have such wonderful futures ahead of them. So good luck with it all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We thank you for your next input, and if you have time, we would like to at least come back for another -

[User] Well, what I'd like to do is -I've basically given you pretty much a synopsis of the whole flight. If there are any areas that come up now with the others and you want to come back with me, I think that's what you should do.

[Assistant] I would like to, because you've given us a good overview, and there's certain things we'd like you just to give your perceptions of.

[User] Good. All right. All right.

[Assistant] That's what we'd like to do for the next time through.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, what I'd like to do is -I've basically given you pretty much a synopsis of the whole flight. If there are any areas that come up now with the others and you want to come back with me, I think that's what you should do.

[Assistant] I would like to, because you've given us a good overview, and there's certain things we'd like you just to give your perceptions of.

[User] Good. All right. All right.

[Assistant] That's what we'd like to do for the next time through.

[User] I don't know if I covered exercise in the previous one, but there are areas now that are under hot discussion at the moment. Exercise is one of them. Sleep compartments is another. Crew habitability. But I've given you more of the story of the flight, as opposed to debrief specific functions.

[Assistant] Yes, and we have in your debriefs that -Charlie Brown sent those to us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good. All right. All right.

[Assistant] That's what we'd like to do for the next time through.

[User] I don't know if I covered exercise in the previous one, but there are areas now that are under hot discussion at the moment. Exercise is one of them. Sleep compartments is another. Crew habitability. But I've given you more of the story of the flight, as opposed to debrief specific functions.

[Assistant] Yes, and we have in your debriefs that -Charlie Brown sent those to us.

[User] See, there you're going to get more detail on that stuff.

[Assistant] And then this last time that we come back, if you'll give us one more hour, what we'd like to do is we'll have some specific topics, and you can just give us your perceptions and then anything else you'd like to add at the end.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know if I covered exercise in the previous one, but there are areas now that are under hot discussion at the moment. Exercise is one of them. Sleep compartments is another. Crew habitability. But I've given you more of the story of the flight, as opposed to debrief specific functions.

[Assistant] Yes, and we have in your debriefs that -Charlie Brown sent those to us.

[User] See, there you're going to get more detail on that stuff.

[Assistant] And then this last time that we come back, if you'll give us one more hour, what we'd like to do is we'll have some specific topics, and you can just give us your perceptions and then anything else you'd like to add at the end.

[User] All right.

[Assistant]
Thanks.

When you were on your EVA, for those six hours manning the crank, were you consumed by your job or did you do any sightseeing while you were . . .?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See, there you're going to get more detail on that stuff.

[Assistant] And then this last time that we come back, if you'll give us one more hour, what we'd like to do is we'll have some specific topics, and you can just give us your perceptions and then anything else you'd like to add at the end.

[User] All right.

[Assistant]
Thanks.

When you were on your EVA, for those six hours manning the crank, were you consumed by your job or did you do any sightseeing while you were . . .?

[User] Oh, I had almost -I had 80 percent sightseeing to do. It was great.

[Assistant] Those are the types of things that we want to come back and get from you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All right.

[Assistant]
Thanks.

When you were on your EVA, for those six hours manning the crank, were you consumed by your job or did you do any sightseeing while you were . . .?

[User] Oh, I had almost -I had 80 percent sightseeing to do. It was great.

[Assistant] Those are the types of things that we want to come back and get from you.

[User] That was just a fantastic experience.

[Assistant] Your feelings with the crew changing and adaptability and just was there tension or was there -just those types of things so we can get how you really feel. So the next time will be kind of a free-for-all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. But it was amazing how quickly we were able to—we actually deployed them in two years, so they were over in England launching out of pads over there within two years of when we started the program. That kind of ability to move out is to some extent lost today. We've become so involved in doing everything by rote that we can't break the rules and get out of that habit to do something new and exciting.

[Assistant] You did lots of exciting things. From my research it looks like you worked on the Atlas and the Titan and the Minuteman.

[User] That's right. I was involved in the guidance control systems, really the electronics laboratory at Ramo-Wooldridge I ran for a while. That did all of the guidance and control for the ballistic missile program. We actually did all of the software there, because that gave us the insight into the programs that you need for being able to do the technical direction and the systems engineering on it. We were fortunate in getting a tremendously capable group of people working on the program and recruited from everywhere. But it was an exciting thing. It was one of these programs that was super secret, so no one was supposed to know anything about it, and very few people did.\n\n We really developed a whole new technology in that time frame, which took place in about six or seven years. Then it grew and grew and grew like things do. Si and Dean [phonetic] started out in a schoolhouse, and, well, actually started in that little storefront office on the street, but then moved into a schoolhouse, and then eventually began to build buildings so that you have that complex which is now down in Manhattan Beach and Torrance that they have built and developed, which is now shrinking, which is characteristic of life. If you aren't growing, you're shrinking.

[Assistant] You were involved in Pioneer I, which was considered the first successful probe.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little bit about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was interesting because I was doing that and running that program in addition to running the laboratories. So I spent my days working in the lab organizing and keeping things going there, then I spent the nights working on this thing. We had a few other people. It's amazing what you can do with a very few people. I think we didn't have more than ten people working on the spacecraft itself, plus some technicians.\n\n But I remember very well that we were about halfway through the program, NASA took it over, so we had some NASA people out watching the program. So they kept asking my bosses, "If George is running the program, how can he do that? He's never working on it?" Of course, I was doing my work at night, and they weren't around. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Spent a lot of hours then/

[User] Well, those are days when you slept just enough.

[Assistant] Then at some point you left Space Technologies Laboratory [STL] and went to work for NASA as a deputy associate administrator for manned space flight.

[User] No, as the associate administrator.

[Assistant] As the associate administrator. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, those are days when you slept just enough.

[Assistant] Then at some point you left Space Technologies Laboratory [STL] and went to work for NASA as a deputy associate administrator for manned space flight.

[User] No, as the associate administrator.

[Assistant] As the associate administrator. Okay.

[User] Actually, I started that associate administrator business. I was the first of that breed. Homer [E.] Newell became an associate administrator for space science. Let's see, who was running the technology group at that time? Associate administrator for technology was—he went to work for Avco up in Connecticut when he left us. Well, his name will came back. That long ago, names are a little more difficult to recall.

[Assistant] When you entered your job at NASA as associate administrator, what did you think was ahead for you at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Joe, of course, is the person responsible for the capsule. It was a question as to who was the best person for the investigation. Joe knew so much about it, it made sense for him to be on the investigating committee. He knew all the interior problems more than anyone else did. In retrospect, I wish that I had had Sam serve on it instead of Joe, because Joe got so deeply emotionally involved that he lost—well, he really had a nervous breakdown, and that created a whole host of personal problems for him and for us as well. Because of that situation we had to replace him. Very difficult. He was a friend, a very good friend, of mine, and one of the most brilliant people I've ever known. Yet he became too involved, too emotionally upset about it, that he just became unable to do the kind of constructive things that we needed at the time. Spent too much time worrying about what had happened, not enough about how to get from where we were to where we needed to be.

[Assistant] But the program did continue. I want to go back just a little bit and talk about some more positive things, hopefully. You were the one responsible for deciding on the all-up testing procedure.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little bit about how you came to that decision?

[User] Oh, it was easy. You just looked at the schedule, and you could see that if you went through the test program that Marshall [Space Flight Center] had laid out for the launch vehicle, that you weren't going to be landing on the moon in the decade. I don't think that anyone really who had been involved in the program disagreed with that. I don't know that that time they were all that convinced that we they were going to be able to land on the moon in the decade.

[Assistant] Did you convince Dr. von Braun and his associates that that was a good idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Apollo 4?

[Assistant] AS-501?

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, of course.

[Assistant] What were you thinking? Were you a little anxious when you did that first test?

[User] Actually, I was deeply enough involved in the program so that at that time I was more interested in making sure that everything that I could think of, or anybody else could think of, was done so it was going to work right. Of course, it worked very well. The 505 didn't work quite so well.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little bit about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Yes, of course.

[Assistant] What were you thinking? Were you a little anxious when you did that first test?

[User] Actually, I was deeply enough involved in the program so that at that time I was more interested in making sure that everything that I could think of, or anybody else could think of, was done so it was going to work right. Of course, it worked very well. The 505 didn't work quite so well.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[User] It was a great learning experience. One of the things that our organization, the organization we had set up with the program offices and the technical groups supporting and so on, worked exceedingly well in terms of identifying the problems and curing them, and identifying them clearly enough so that we certainly knew what the problem was, because that's always a problem when you're dealing with things at a distance.\n\n We produced the problem on the ground and made the corrections necessary, and then we went through the entire history of those two flights, to be sure there weren't other anomalies in them, in as much depth as I've ever seen programs reviewed, and on the basis of that we felt confident enough that this thing was going to fly, that we flew the next one to the moon.

[Assistant] And that decision to send Apollo 8 around the moon, you weren't initially convinced that was a good idea, were you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, I was deeply enough involved in the program so that at that time I was more interested in making sure that everything that I could think of, or anybody else could think of, was done so it was going to work right. Of course, it worked very well. The 505 didn't work quite so well.

[Assistant] Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[User] It was a great learning experience. One of the things that our organization, the organization we had set up with the program offices and the technical groups supporting and so on, worked exceedingly well in terms of identifying the problems and curing them, and identifying them clearly enough so that we certainly knew what the problem was, because that's always a problem when you're dealing with things at a distance.\n\n We produced the problem on the ground and made the corrections necessary, and then we went through the entire history of those two flights, to be sure there weren't other anomalies in them, in as much depth as I've ever seen programs reviewed, and on the basis of that we felt confident enough that this thing was going to fly, that we flew the next one to the moon.

[Assistant] And that decision to send Apollo 8 around the moon, you weren't initially convinced that was a good idea, were you?

[User] No, as a matter of fact, I thought it was great.

[Assistant] Oh, did you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a great learning experience. One of the things that our organization, the organization we had set up with the program offices and the technical groups supporting and so on, worked exceedingly well in terms of identifying the problems and curing them, and identifying them clearly enough so that we certainly knew what the problem was, because that's always a problem when you're dealing with things at a distance.\n\n We produced the problem on the ground and made the corrections necessary, and then we went through the entire history of those two flights, to be sure there weren't other anomalies in them, in as much depth as I've ever seen programs reviewed, and on the basis of that we felt confident enough that this thing was going to fly, that we flew the next one to the moon.

[Assistant] And that decision to send Apollo 8 around the moon, you weren't initially convinced that was a good idea, were you?

[User] No, as a matter of fact, I thought it was great.

[Assistant] Oh, did you?

[User] But I wanted to make sure that we did this thorough review, and so I used it as a—I said, "You've got to convince me it's going to be safe." No, I used that as a lever to get that kind of a review, which really found a few things and straightened them out before we were satisfied that it was safe to go.

[Assistant] You sent Apollo 8 around the moon, and it was successful, but several flights later on Apollo 13 there was a lot of problems on that flight, but they got back with the lunar module. Did that make you reflect any differently on Apollo, what you had done on Apollo 8?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I wanted to make sure that we did this thorough review, and so I used it as a—I said, "You've got to convince me it's going to be safe." No, I used that as a lever to get that kind of a review, which really found a few things and straightened them out before we were satisfied that it was safe to go.

[Assistant] You sent Apollo 8 around the moon, and it was successful, but several flights later on Apollo 13 there was a lot of problems on that flight, but they got back with the lunar module. Did that make you reflect any differently on Apollo, what you had done on Apollo 8?

[User] No, it proved that I was right. Of course, I was out by then.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was Dale [D.] Myers—we're working together on this thing now—that was running it. I told him it was his fault. [Laughter] This was later, of course. But, no, we had anticipated that kind of a problem. If we would have known what the problem was, it wouldn't have happened. But we anticipated that there could be problems that had that kind of a consequence, and we had looked at how to get back, and that's the case. It was worse than we had anticipated, but still it worked.

[Assistant] So as you were working on the Apollo Program, you realized that there as going to have to be something after Apollo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it proved that I was right. Of course, I was out by then.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was Dale [D.] Myers—we're working together on this thing now—that was running it. I told him it was his fault. [Laughter] This was later, of course. But, no, we had anticipated that kind of a problem. If we would have known what the problem was, it wouldn't have happened. But we anticipated that there could be problems that had that kind of a consequence, and we had looked at how to get back, and that's the case. It was worse than we had anticipated, but still it worked.

[Assistant] So as you were working on the Apollo Program, you realized that there as going to have to be something after Apollo.

[User] Yes. Or I hoped there was going to be something.

[Assistant] What eventually came after Apollo was Skylab. So how did that all get started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, it's interesting. Of course, basically, my background is in science, so it was something I thought of as being important. My background's also in engineering, so I have both sides of the coin.\n\n There was not a great deal of enthusiasm initially anywhere in the organization for science, but because it was impacting Johnson more than it was Marshall, Marshall was much more enthusiastic about science than Johnson was. So it took a fair amount of direction to get a scientific program installed in the program. It wasn't so much opposition to it as it was, well, they didn't really see why it was useful. And none of the astronauts, of course, had any scientific background, so they weren't particularly—In fact, Jack [Harrison H.] Schmitt was the only one that had any scientific training, and he almost didn't get to fly.

[Assistant] So do you think that ensuring that science was done on those helped NASA?

[User] Oh, it did indeed. In fact, the amazing thing was shortly after the program ended, one of the chief opponents of the Apollo programs from the scientific community came around and said, "You know, we were wrong. We should have insisted on more science and more flights." Because it turned out to be very, very useful, and certainly if we had continued the program, it would have been very valuable from a scientific point of view, because we had a far more capable exploration tool in the lunar excursion module than we're likely to have in any of the robotic programs we now are contemplating.

[Assistant] One thing we didn't talk about when we were talking about Apollo was how you felt when you watched from Mission Control the landing of the lunar module on Apollo 11.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about that.

[User] Tell us about that?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That was a fascinating time. I was in the little side room they have there, and listening and listening and listening, and thinking, "Are they going to be able to land?" It happened very rapidly. So they had landed by the time all of the worries got organized in my mind. But that was a traumatic moment. And as it turns out, it was one of those things, that somebody decided that they would just do a little experiment on the landing altimeter and left it running instead of turning it off as it was supposed to be, and that just overloaded the shift registers in the computer. Fortunately, it was self-correcting, so it would come back on again, but then this landing radar would cause it to overload and shut down, I guess. That was driving them until they got down to the ground. It turned out that the folks on the ground, the support troops, recognized the problem, or [they] analyzed it and recognized it in the few moments they had to do it, and decided it was safe to proceed. But that was a hectic five or ten minutes.

[Assistant] That was in 1969, and that's the same year you left NASA. Why did you decide to leave NASA and go back to industry at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tell us about that?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] That was a fascinating time. I was in the little side room they have there, and listening and listening and listening, and thinking, "Are they going to be able to land?" It happened very rapidly. So they had landed by the time all of the worries got organized in my mind. But that was a traumatic moment. And as it turns out, it was one of those things, that somebody decided that they would just do a little experiment on the landing altimeter and left it running instead of turning it off as it was supposed to be, and that just overloaded the shift registers in the computer. Fortunately, it was self-correcting, so it would come back on again, but then this landing radar would cause it to overload and shut down, I guess. That was driving them until they got down to the ground. It turned out that the folks on the ground, the support troops, recognized the problem, or [they] analyzed it and recognized it in the few moments they had to do it, and decided it was safe to proceed. But that was a hectic five or ten minutes.

[Assistant] That was in 1969, and that's the same year you left NASA. Why did you decide to leave NASA and go back to industry at that time?

[User] Well, several reasons. One is that the decision had been made to terminate the Apollo Program, and that was a good time then to leave before, and let someone else take over for the next phase. From a practical point of view, I needed to go make some money so I could keep my family going. It was costly for us to join the Apollo Program. My salary was half what I was making in industry when I went there, and it was just a strain to keep the family going and work going at the same time. So I went back to industry.

[Assistant] It was nice to leave with the triumph of landing on the moon.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know. What I'm trying to do is get us out into space. [Laughter]

[Assistant] We thank you so much for your time that you've spent with us.

[User] I'm jealous of John Glenn. I very much wanted to go on Apollo 8, but Jim Webb wouldn't let me.

[Assistant] Yes, John Glenn is very fortunate.

[User] Yes, he is.

[Assistant]
We'll be hearing a lot more about him in another month.

You'll just have to put in your little program plan for getting yourself up there. Sell yourself to Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm jealous of John Glenn. I very much wanted to go on Apollo 8, but Jim Webb wouldn't let me.

[Assistant] Yes, John Glenn is very fortunate.

[User] Yes, he is.

[Assistant]
We'll be hearing a lot more about him in another month.

You'll just have to put in your little program plan for getting yourself up there. Sell yourself to Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin.

[User] [Laughter] Ah, yes. Well, I don't have quite the political clout that John has.

[Assistant] Again, we thank you so much for participating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, definitely. Definitely.

[Assistant] Well, you’ve worked at several places throughout the government, several agencies. How does NASA compare? Is there anything that sticks out?

[User] Well, I have not yet worked at another federal agency. OSTP is really a part of the Executive Office of the President, although it is its own agency in terms of having all the functions that a normal agency would have, housed in that small office.

[Assistant] And, of course, Congress is one of a kind.

[User] What can you compare that to? That was a great experience, both being on the Hill and also being in the White House. It’s really hard until you get into either one of those to understand how they work and how they operate, and it’s kind of hard to penetrate on the outside.\n\n I would say the first thing, again, is the fact that I’ve been really fortunate to work both homeland security and space issues. The people that do this day in and day out, they love their jobs. They’re dedicated. They’re committed. They’re very passionate. You don’t always get that in the federal government. So, from that standpoint, it’s really nice to work in this agency and see the level of devotion and commitment to America’s space program when you go out anywhere in the agency or the broader aerospace community.\n\n I think the other things are just what you would expect in large organizations and also in bureaucracies. It’s not going to be the same level of bureaucracy at NASA as it is at some of the bigger departments, which is good, but it’s a level of bureaucracy that you don’t necessarily encounter in the private sector. Throughout my entire career, if I felt a sense of urgency about particular issues, I would want them to be taken care of very quickly, and so I have had to learn patience in this job, because things don’t move as quickly as I would like them to move.

[Assistant] Any other big surprises since you’ve been here that you didn’t expect when you came? I know that’s a general question.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was later that I was. Definitely I was inspired as a kid, but I didn’t have the same desire that he did, as many people do, to become an astronaut. Definitely a coolness factor about astronauts when I was little. My intense interest in either working at NASA or somehow being affiliated with aerospace actually came in law school, and that was because of a law article that I wrote on remote sensing satellites. You probably know the story that I had applied to NASA for an attorney position just as I was coming out of law school, and nothing came of that, and that was fine. But the reason that I came up to Capitol Hill was to either pursue space or telecommunications policy work, and eventually, after a year on Capitol Hill working on Public Works and Transportation Committee, there was an opening on the House Science Committee, and that was the start of my progression into space work. And now, after all these years, I’m finally at NASA.

[Assistant] What year was that?

[User] The transition over to House Science Committee was 1991.

[Assistant]
We thank you for your time today. Is there anything you’d like to add or any subject that you’ve thought about that we didn’t get to cover?

I’m sure she could go on and on. [Laughter]

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] Well, we thank you again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no question about that. [Laughter]

[Assistant] How was that received in Hangar S when the folks from the Space Task Group started coming down there? Were you well received?

[User] Oh, yes, because we knew all the guys, you see. As I say, I had shared an office with "Press," so it was fine. We got along very, very well.\n\n Another guy you may have come across the name, anyway, he was never in the civil service, was John [F.] Yardley. Yes, he was in the civil service. He became Shuttle program manager. He ran Hangar S for McDonnell-Douglas, so he sort of worked for "Press" and the pair of them together, we had a whole bunch of really good civil servants down there and a bunch of really good McDonnell-Douglas people. Some of them became very famous, John himself.\n\n Another guy whose name you'll hear all over the place was Guenter Wendt, who was the guy who always looked after the crew when he buttoned them up, became very famous.

[Assistant] Those Mercury days must have been very exciting—

[User] Oh, sure.

[Assistant] —because they never stopped, and you kept watching things change. Can you tell us some things that were happening during those early days that you were starting, even before it became evolving, you were creating before it could evolve.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, because we knew all the guys, you see. As I say, I had shared an office with "Press," so it was fine. We got along very, very well.\n\n Another guy you may have come across the name, anyway, he was never in the civil service, was John [F.] Yardley. Yes, he was in the civil service. He became Shuttle program manager. He ran Hangar S for McDonnell-Douglas, so he sort of worked for "Press" and the pair of them together, we had a whole bunch of really good civil servants down there and a bunch of really good McDonnell-Douglas people. Some of them became very famous, John himself.\n\n Another guy whose name you'll hear all over the place was Guenter Wendt, who was the guy who always looked after the crew when he buttoned them up, became very famous.

[Assistant] Those Mercury days must have been very exciting—

[User] Oh, sure.

[Assistant] —because they never stopped, and you kept watching things change. Can you tell us some things that were happening during those early days that you were starting, even before it became evolving, you were creating before it could evolve.

[User] Well, I think the thing was, we were never quite sure—see, the reason the people hadn't joined and they couldn't get people to hire was because they thought it was a fly-by-night thing. We'd get enough money for two or three years, we'd do the Mercury Program, it would be all over. Well, we were successful, is really what happened, and so they decided—[President] John [F.] Kennedy made the decision about Apollo, but at the time that decision was made, we had not got a Gemini Program, and we all of a sudden realized that we didn't know how we were going to get to the moon and that one of the keys was going to be this rendezvous thing, and we didn't know how to do that. Had no idea how to do it.

[Assistant] So I guess you were surprised to hear President Kennedy make that announcement? What was your reaction when you heard that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In a way, that was kind of a sad situation. My wife talks about this very often. When we were at Houston, she said the only thing that counted was the Apollo Program. That was the only thing that counted, and by the time we left in 1970, that was the height of the Vietnam War. They didn't even know the Vietnam War was going on. It's incredible when you think about it. So, I mean, it really was dedicated. We talked earlier on about this business of being a tight-knit organization. It was and it still is. I'm not sure if you notice that down there. As far as they're concerned, I think, Manned Spacecraft Center is NASA. Ask anybody what the first word from the moon was said. You know what it was?

[Assistant] Houston.

[User] Houston. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Speaking of missions, do you have a favorite one that you were involved in? Does one stand out more to you?

[User] One [Gemini VIII] stood out more because I dumped Neil Armstrong into the Sea of China. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Would you like the share the details of that?