[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was a lot of frustration here, and I wasn't the only Peace Corps volunteer to feel that some of the other guys and the other programs also had frustrations and not just picked people, not just to pick people. You know, there is an incredible bureaucracy in India, even more so than I think in America. And none of the training that any of us got really prepared us for dealing with that bureaucracy.

[Assistant] And most of you did not have extensive experience.

[User] So one of the things that I was trying to do on my own was that, when we finally did get ready to have pigs, we needed to have a way to feed them and water them and I was trying to make some feeders, some self feeders, that were big hoppers that we could put the feed in and then you could adjust where the flow was so that when the pig was hungry, you could go in and as he ate to a certain point, the feed would fall down.

[Assistant] So your own design or something?

[User] It was based on some designs that they showed up at the University of California at Chico. And then I was trying to come up with a bit of watering automatic water device based on a 50 gallon drum. So I was working on these there at the society headquarters. We had they had the office upstairs and downstairs. There was like an alley across from the alley with a sign painting shop where they used to make the signs for all the Indian movies. So I had been on one side of the alley working on my pig feeder and the other guys would be over there painting these beautiful canvases of Indian actors and actresses. The problem we were having was that we didn't have a place to put pigs right when we did have an opportunity to get pigs, we couldn't take them because we didn't have any place to keep them.

[Assistant] How did you become aware? How would the opportunity arise?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably about maybe nine months?

[Assistant] Uh, just a related issue. What do you do with your free time? I mean, you know, what else? Any given day.

[User] What I’d do is I go to the office and talk to them and see what's going on. If I had finished my construction projects, I'd go to the other Peace Corps volunteers and see what they were doing right. And sometimes we'd we go to one of their places where they were working. And we'd see if we could all help out. The there was a bishopric there and he found out he had a school and a church orphanage. And we tried to help them a little bit. They had some mechanical problems with some of the machinery. And we tried to help fix the machinery.

[Assistant] Any free time, I mean, weekends?

[User] We had a lot of free time, I think probably more than I should have had. I did make a fairly good number of Indian friends. We would go out and drink tea and we talk about politics.

[Assistant] And Indian friends were from related to work or just where you lived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What I’d do is I go to the office and talk to them and see what's going on. If I had finished my construction projects, I'd go to the other Peace Corps volunteers and see what they were doing right. And sometimes we'd we go to one of their places where they were working. And we'd see if we could all help out. The there was a bishopric there and he found out he had a school and a church orphanage. And we tried to help them a little bit. They had some mechanical problems with some of the machinery. And we tried to help fix the machinery.

[Assistant] Any free time, I mean, weekends?

[User] We had a lot of free time, I think probably more than I should have had. I did make a fairly good number of Indian friends. We would go out and drink tea and we talk about politics.

[Assistant] And Indian friends were from related to work or just where you lived?

[User] Just people we had met.

[Assistant] You keep saying we. But for the most part, it's just you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a lot of free time, I think probably more than I should have had. I did make a fairly good number of Indian friends. We would go out and drink tea and we talk about politics.

[Assistant] And Indian friends were from related to work or just where you lived?

[User] Just people we had met.

[Assistant] You keep saying we. But for the most part, it's just you.

[User] I would say so. Yeah. For the most part, there was an informal network of the other Peace Corps. And I mean, we all knew each other. The Canadian couple, they were an older couple and they were really not part of our social circle. We would see them and talk to them. And just how they were doing that would be about it on a related topic.

[Assistant] Do you recall your first Thanksgiving and your first Christmas being in India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Just people we had met.

[Assistant] You keep saying we. But for the most part, it's just you.

[User] I would say so. Yeah. For the most part, there was an informal network of the other Peace Corps. And I mean, we all knew each other. The Canadian couple, they were an older couple and they were really not part of our social circle. We would see them and talk to them. And just how they were doing that would be about it on a related topic.

[Assistant] Do you recall your first Thanksgiving and your first Christmas being in India?

[User] I remember my first Fourth of July because I was working on the on the feeding box. And as I was cleaning the wood down and I said, hey today’s the Fourth of July, it doesn’t mean anything to the people here. So I'm going back to work.

[Assistant] You had already been there nine months, almost a year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say so. Yeah. For the most part, there was an informal network of the other Peace Corps. And I mean, we all knew each other. The Canadian couple, they were an older couple and they were really not part of our social circle. We would see them and talk to them. And just how they were doing that would be about it on a related topic.

[Assistant] Do you recall your first Thanksgiving and your first Christmas being in India?

[User] I remember my first Fourth of July because I was working on the on the feeding box. And as I was cleaning the wood down and I said, hey today’s the Fourth of July, it doesn’t mean anything to the people here. So I'm going back to work.

[Assistant] You had already been there nine months, almost a year.

[User] So, yeah, I just don't think it was a big deal.

[Assistant] Ok. Coming on toward the end of the first year, usually there's some kind of break you get you get vacation you can take or you get with the whole group gets called together by the Peace Corps for a sit around and talk kind of conference. Do you recall, you know, any anything between first and second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember my first Fourth of July because I was working on the on the feeding box. And as I was cleaning the wood down and I said, hey today’s the Fourth of July, it doesn’t mean anything to the people here. So I'm going back to work.

[Assistant] You had already been there nine months, almost a year.

[User] So, yeah, I just don't think it was a big deal.

[Assistant] Ok. Coming on toward the end of the first year, usually there's some kind of break you get you get vacation you can take or you get with the whole group gets called together by the Peace Corps for a sit around and talk kind of conference. Do you recall, you know, any anything between first and second year?

[User] I know that we've been to Bombay. I had been Bombay a couple of times for Peace Corps related reasons. For like a seminar or just to check on us. We also have free time while we were at the conferences so that we go to movies, have dinner with each other or walk around.

[Assistant] And there's a much more comfortable environment than where you were living.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, yeah, I just don't think it was a big deal.

[Assistant] Ok. Coming on toward the end of the first year, usually there's some kind of break you get you get vacation you can take or you get with the whole group gets called together by the Peace Corps for a sit around and talk kind of conference. Do you recall, you know, any anything between first and second year?

[User] I know that we've been to Bombay. I had been Bombay a couple of times for Peace Corps related reasons. For like a seminar or just to check on us. We also have free time while we were at the conferences so that we go to movies, have dinner with each other or walk around.

[Assistant] And there's a much more comfortable environment than where you were living.

[User] It was, because these guys, we can go to restaurants and actually order a hamburger or whatever. Meat was prepared in a Western fashion.

[Assistant] So were you living a vegetarian diet when you're up in the town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know that we've been to Bombay. I had been Bombay a couple of times for Peace Corps related reasons. For like a seminar or just to check on us. We also have free time while we were at the conferences so that we go to movies, have dinner with each other or walk around.

[Assistant] And there's a much more comfortable environment than where you were living.

[User] It was, because these guys, we can go to restaurants and actually order a hamburger or whatever. Meat was prepared in a Western fashion.

[Assistant] So were you living a vegetarian diet when you're up in the town?

[User] Not really. We had, once I had gotten to live with the other guys in the industrial estate. We had a cook, a Muslim who had been a sheet metal worker. And Gary and Phil were interviewing people to see if they could find a good cook. And he came up and said he was an excellent cook and he'd been cooking for years. And it turned out that he'd never cooked in his life. He was a sheet metal worker. And what would happen is he'd go home and ask his wife how to cook and then he come back and cook it for us, you know, and he would go into town maybe two or three times a week and buy goat. So the only meat that we ever had in any quantity at all in the village was pretty good. Chicken and eggs and. I don't think we had eggs. I don't remember chicken, but I know we could go to the restaurant and get chicken, chicken biriyani or something like that.

[Assistant] Did you take any vacation during that period at the end of the first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, because these guys, we can go to restaurants and actually order a hamburger or whatever. Meat was prepared in a Western fashion.

[Assistant] So were you living a vegetarian diet when you're up in the town?

[User] Not really. We had, once I had gotten to live with the other guys in the industrial estate. We had a cook, a Muslim who had been a sheet metal worker. And Gary and Phil were interviewing people to see if they could find a good cook. And he came up and said he was an excellent cook and he'd been cooking for years. And it turned out that he'd never cooked in his life. He was a sheet metal worker. And what would happen is he'd go home and ask his wife how to cook and then he come back and cook it for us, you know, and he would go into town maybe two or three times a week and buy goat. So the only meat that we ever had in any quantity at all in the village was pretty good. Chicken and eggs and. I don't think we had eggs. I don't remember chicken, but I know we could go to the restaurant and get chicken, chicken biriyani or something like that.

[Assistant] Did you take any vacation during that period at the end of the first year?

[User] I did. I went to visit two guys north of Bombay. Who was just a little short hop up the coast and they were right on the coast. It was very nice to spend a few days up there and then. Later, can't remember which one of the other volunteers and I went to Goa, south of Bombay, it was Portuguese.

[Assistant] Was it still Portuguese?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. We had, once I had gotten to live with the other guys in the industrial estate. We had a cook, a Muslim who had been a sheet metal worker. And Gary and Phil were interviewing people to see if they could find a good cook. And he came up and said he was an excellent cook and he'd been cooking for years. And it turned out that he'd never cooked in his life. He was a sheet metal worker. And what would happen is he'd go home and ask his wife how to cook and then he come back and cook it for us, you know, and he would go into town maybe two or three times a week and buy goat. So the only meat that we ever had in any quantity at all in the village was pretty good. Chicken and eggs and. I don't think we had eggs. I don't remember chicken, but I know we could go to the restaurant and get chicken, chicken biriyani or something like that.

[Assistant] Did you take any vacation during that period at the end of the first year?

[User] I did. I went to visit two guys north of Bombay. Who was just a little short hop up the coast and they were right on the coast. It was very nice to spend a few days up there and then. Later, can't remember which one of the other volunteers and I went to Goa, south of Bombay, it was Portuguese.

[Assistant] Was it still Portuguese?

[User] It was Portuguese then, and we probably spent about a week or so there. James Brown was making a movie and we almost got to see him. I almost ran into Shirley MacLaine one day in Bombay. My friend and I were doing something and he had to go one way and I went the other way. And just after he left me said, by the way, I just ran into Shirley MacLaine. So she was there doing some ashram thing.

[Assistant] Did you during that whole first year, did you get a sense that you could take part in or become aware of traditional Hindu practices or the religion?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I went to visit two guys north of Bombay. Who was just a little short hop up the coast and they were right on the coast. It was very nice to spend a few days up there and then. Later, can't remember which one of the other volunteers and I went to Goa, south of Bombay, it was Portuguese.

[Assistant] Was it still Portuguese?

[User] It was Portuguese then, and we probably spent about a week or so there. James Brown was making a movie and we almost got to see him. I almost ran into Shirley MacLaine one day in Bombay. My friend and I were doing something and he had to go one way and I went the other way. And just after he left me said, by the way, I just ran into Shirley MacLaine. So she was there doing some ashram thing.

[Assistant] Did you during that whole first year, did you get a sense that you could take part in or become aware of traditional Hindu practices or the religion?

[User] There were several festivals during the year. One, which was very popular was called Diwali Festival of Lights. And I don't really remember what it stood for, but the idea was that you would sprinkle colored powders on each other, to wish them a happy New Year or prosperity. And I have pictures of us just totally covered and it seemed like it was mostly red rubbed into our hair, rubbed into our faces. And you just go around the village knowing the people that you know.

[Assistant] For the most part, people were friendly. I mean, did you encounter either indifference or hostility and any points?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were several festivals during the year. One, which was very popular was called Diwali Festival of Lights. And I don't really remember what it stood for, but the idea was that you would sprinkle colored powders on each other, to wish them a happy New Year or prosperity. And I have pictures of us just totally covered and it seemed like it was mostly red rubbed into our hair, rubbed into our faces. And you just go around the village knowing the people that you know.

[Assistant] For the most part, people were friendly. I mean, did you encounter either indifference or hostility and any points?

[User] I don't think I ever will. Let me let me back up. It wasn't really hostility. At one time, I was in Bombay by myself and I had gone to a concert with one of my friends from the village. And later on he had to go some and I just kind of wandering around. I was staying with the two Peace Corps volunteers who were living there in Bombay, and I met these three or four Indian boys and we got to talking and they invited me back to their room so we could talk some more. And after we'd been there, there are a few other people who showed up and after we'd been there, talked a lot about America, about how I liked India and what they wanted to do in America. It was kind of like they, you know, you're really very stupid to come to a place like this by yourself. You could be hurt. I said, I think I'll go now. And they let me go. It could have been, who knows? But I never felt, with one exception, I never felt threatened by anybody.

[Assistant] But being in the town you were, I mean, did small children follow you when you walk around or?

[User] They'd come up to you and just grab you by the legs and say, take me to America.

[Assistant] So the exposure at some sometimes can get very annoying or wearing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They'd come up to you and just grab you by the legs and say, take me to America.

[Assistant] So the exposure at some sometimes can get very annoying or wearing?

[User] If they were nice kids, it wasn't bad. If they were. And we had a lot of nice kids. There was a little mud village around the industrial estate and some of the kids just love to see us, you know, and some of them were just really neat. And we couldn't always understand what they were saying, or at least we pretended not to understand what they were saying, but for the most part, seen the families of. It was very enjoyable. We did meet a number of people, even though we didn't know them, they would accept us on a social level. We were invited to a number of weddings where we never knew the people who were actually getting married. But because our friend, a friend who knew a friend was the cousin to the bride's first maid sister.

[Assistant] So it was like welcoming the visitors.

[User] We would go in there and it was just welcomed with open arms.

[Assistant] As you going into the second year? Sometimes people see the light at the end of the tunnel. They don't get involved with, tours to 20 months or two years, whatever it is, and sort of say, well, before I leave, I think I would like at least to get this far with whatever the task is I think I'm doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If they were nice kids, it wasn't bad. If they were. And we had a lot of nice kids. There was a little mud village around the industrial estate and some of the kids just love to see us, you know, and some of them were just really neat. And we couldn't always understand what they were saying, or at least we pretended not to understand what they were saying, but for the most part, seen the families of. It was very enjoyable. We did meet a number of people, even though we didn't know them, they would accept us on a social level. We were invited to a number of weddings where we never knew the people who were actually getting married. But because our friend, a friend who knew a friend was the cousin to the bride's first maid sister.

[Assistant] So it was like welcoming the visitors.

[User] We would go in there and it was just welcomed with open arms.

[Assistant] As you going into the second year? Sometimes people see the light at the end of the tunnel. They don't get involved with, tours to 20 months or two years, whatever it is, and sort of say, well, before I leave, I think I would like at least to get this far with whatever the task is I think I'm doing.

[User] I would have liked to have gotten some pigs. That's what I was sent there for and I haven't accomplished that.

[Assistant] So was your second year like a continuation of the first? Was there no closure points or no achievement, real achievement points?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We would go in there and it was just welcomed with open arms.

[Assistant] As you going into the second year? Sometimes people see the light at the end of the tunnel. They don't get involved with, tours to 20 months or two years, whatever it is, and sort of say, well, before I leave, I think I would like at least to get this far with whatever the task is I think I'm doing.

[User] I would have liked to have gotten some pigs. That's what I was sent there for and I haven't accomplished that.

[Assistant] So was your second year like a continuation of the first? Was there no closure points or no achievement, real achievement points?

[User] We never really did get any buildings built for pigs. But I did visit my friends who not only had the pigs, they managed to ship them to Bombay. And I went to Bombay once to help the guys in the Bombay College of Veterinary College to see what they were doing and how they were doing it. And I got through the process.

[Assistant] Just to take it through, we’ll talk about your medical crisis or whatever it was. But as you came to the end of the two years, what sense of accomplishment did you have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would have liked to have gotten some pigs. That's what I was sent there for and I haven't accomplished that.

[Assistant] So was your second year like a continuation of the first? Was there no closure points or no achievement, real achievement points?

[User] We never really did get any buildings built for pigs. But I did visit my friends who not only had the pigs, they managed to ship them to Bombay. And I went to Bombay once to help the guys in the Bombay College of Veterinary College to see what they were doing and how they were doing it. And I got through the process.

[Assistant] Just to take it through, we’ll talk about your medical crisis or whatever it was. But as you came to the end of the two years, what sense of accomplishment did you have?

[User] I think the biggest sense of accomplishment that I had was the fact that made so many good friends of one of those friends who was a Sikh, confided in me that he wanted to be a Christian and that he couldn't tell his family, you know, because otherwise they would kill him. I was trying to see if there was a way writing back to my family, to my church members, to see if there was a way in which they could help him come to America. I personally was not able to do much for him. But he did get to Canada and got into America and he settled in Colorado. Well, my wife and I met him after he got married about a year or two after he got married. And last I heard, he had three boys and he had his own optical shop in Montrose. And I think that was I had, I think a lot to do that we had an article in our local newspaper that interviewed him, and he's standing there in front of his optical shop and he's got a 1964 John Kennedy half dollar, which I have given him. And he said that's what kept him going, what John Kennedy stood for.

[Assistant] All through this first year, second year, what were you communicating back to your family? I assume you were writing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We never really did get any buildings built for pigs. But I did visit my friends who not only had the pigs, they managed to ship them to Bombay. And I went to Bombay once to help the guys in the Bombay College of Veterinary College to see what they were doing and how they were doing it. And I got through the process.

[Assistant] Just to take it through, we’ll talk about your medical crisis or whatever it was. But as you came to the end of the two years, what sense of accomplishment did you have?

[User] I think the biggest sense of accomplishment that I had was the fact that made so many good friends of one of those friends who was a Sikh, confided in me that he wanted to be a Christian and that he couldn't tell his family, you know, because otherwise they would kill him. I was trying to see if there was a way writing back to my family, to my church members, to see if there was a way in which they could help him come to America. I personally was not able to do much for him. But he did get to Canada and got into America and he settled in Colorado. Well, my wife and I met him after he got married about a year or two after he got married. And last I heard, he had three boys and he had his own optical shop in Montrose. And I think that was I had, I think a lot to do that we had an article in our local newspaper that interviewed him, and he's standing there in front of his optical shop and he's got a 1964 John Kennedy half dollar, which I have given him. And he said that's what kept him going, what John Kennedy stood for.

[Assistant] All through this first year, second year, what were you communicating back to your family? I assume you were writing.

[User] I was trying to tell them what I was going through, the difference of things that. But I'm not sure they could understand.

[Assistant] Did it at any point in the first year, did you say to yourself, oh, my God, I'm an idiot? I said I wanted to come to India, here I am.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the biggest sense of accomplishment that I had was the fact that made so many good friends of one of those friends who was a Sikh, confided in me that he wanted to be a Christian and that he couldn't tell his family, you know, because otherwise they would kill him. I was trying to see if there was a way writing back to my family, to my church members, to see if there was a way in which they could help him come to America. I personally was not able to do much for him. But he did get to Canada and got into America and he settled in Colorado. Well, my wife and I met him after he got married about a year or two after he got married. And last I heard, he had three boys and he had his own optical shop in Montrose. And I think that was I had, I think a lot to do that we had an article in our local newspaper that interviewed him, and he's standing there in front of his optical shop and he's got a 1964 John Kennedy half dollar, which I have given him. And he said that's what kept him going, what John Kennedy stood for.

[Assistant] All through this first year, second year, what were you communicating back to your family? I assume you were writing.

[User] I was trying to tell them what I was going through, the difference of things that. But I'm not sure they could understand.

[Assistant] Did it at any point in the first year, did you say to yourself, oh, my God, I'm an idiot? I said I wanted to come to India, here I am.

[User] I think I said that myself almost every day. It was just so unique, so exotic.

[Assistant]
Did anyone keep your letters, by the way? I still have all of them.

OK, now, you mentioned the communication situation. Tell me when it happened and what it was. You mentioned the time when you needed to be at a hostel.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was trying to tell them what I was going through, the difference of things that. But I'm not sure they could understand.

[Assistant] Did it at any point in the first year, did you say to yourself, oh, my God, I'm an idiot? I said I wanted to come to India, here I am.

[User] I think I said that myself almost every day. It was just so unique, so exotic.

[Assistant]
Did anyone keep your letters, by the way? I still have all of them.

OK, now, you mentioned the communication situation. Tell me when it happened and what it was. You mentioned the time when you needed to be at a hostel.

[User] Oh, OK.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you generally about health care.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I said that myself almost every day. It was just so unique, so exotic.

[Assistant]
Did anyone keep your letters, by the way? I still have all of them.

OK, now, you mentioned the communication situation. Tell me when it happened and what it was. You mentioned the time when you needed to be at a hostel.

[User] Oh, OK.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you generally about health care.

[User] For the most part, we at one point in time or another, all of us got sick with some type of dysentery, either because the food was so hot, you just had to drink the water, even though, you know, you shouldn't. Or you ate something that wasn't quite right.

[Assistant] Do Hindus not drink alcohol?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, OK.

[Assistant] I was going to ask you generally about health care.

[User] For the most part, we at one point in time or another, all of us got sick with some type of dysentery, either because the food was so hot, you just had to drink the water, even though, you know, you shouldn't. Or you ate something that wasn't quite right.

[Assistant] Do Hindus not drink alcohol?

[User] It's interesting, you can get a license to drink alcohol in India if you are an alcoholic. And there were state run shops, we could go to buy liquor. And any American just had to say, I'm an American, and they would automatically give you this liquor license because everybody knows that Americans are alcoholics. I see it in the movies. Everything they know about America, they learn from movies. Every American is rich. Every American has a car. Every American has a watch. I heard that I don't know how many times. I never got a liquor license. But one time several of my friends said we're going to have a little party south of town. And they invited me and they invited all of the volunteers, but only one of the other guys and I went and we wrote our bikes out to this abandoned gas station about maybe six kilometers south of town. And it faced on the road. We had to go round the back and you climbed up the ladder and you were on this roof that had a high parapet around the front so that nobody could see you from the road, bikes in the back. And there were a few of our friends and the few people that they knew that were providing them with the liquor. And they hand us bottles that was called Lucky Tiger, and it looked and smelled like a lucky tiger here. And as they were passing it around before it got to us, one of them said, you know, we had this lucky tiger wedding at my cousin's last month. We were lucky, only three people died. And we just didn't even want to try that.

[Assistant] It wasn't Shivas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What had happened is in India, typically you wear real thin leather sandals. And in the rainy season, these things get wet and very, very slippery. And I had gone to a movie with some friends of mine. And as we were coming out of the movie from upstairs, we were going downstairs and the steps were slick because it had rained while we were inside. And my feet went out from under me. And I landed on my butt. Two days later, I started pissing blood and I said, that's it, I'm going. It took me the better part of a day, 24 hours to get into India, go to the administrative office and say, hey.

[Assistant] In Bombay?

[User] Yeah, Bombay. And then they put me in a hospital. Which I found was fascinating because it had people from all nationalities who were Swedish ship sailors, and if I if I hadn't felt so bad, I would have enjoyed it a lot more. And they gave me a bunch of tests and they gave me a variant to do to take x-rays. I thought it was fairly competent for an Indian hospital. I think it was all Indian, I don't remember any Europeans on the staff at all, and I was probably in the hospital for three or four days or one of my fellow co-workers from the village had come in to see how I was doing. And we had some friends who was an industrialist, who had two very Westernized children, and his daughter had come in but with Pete or she was there already and they met together in the hospital. And he and I probably spent another three or four days after I got out of the hospital recuperating at my friend's apartment in Bombay.

[Assistant] Peace Corps?

[User] Peace Corps friend.

[Assistant] Was there a Peace Corps doctor on staff in Bombay?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, Bombay. And then they put me in a hospital. Which I found was fascinating because it had people from all nationalities who were Swedish ship sailors, and if I if I hadn't felt so bad, I would have enjoyed it a lot more. And they gave me a bunch of tests and they gave me a variant to do to take x-rays. I thought it was fairly competent for an Indian hospital. I think it was all Indian, I don't remember any Europeans on the staff at all, and I was probably in the hospital for three or four days or one of my fellow co-workers from the village had come in to see how I was doing. And we had some friends who was an industrialist, who had two very Westernized children, and his daughter had come in but with Pete or she was there already and they met together in the hospital. And he and I probably spent another three or four days after I got out of the hospital recuperating at my friend's apartment in Bombay.

[Assistant] Peace Corps?

[User] Peace Corps friend.

[Assistant] Was there a Peace Corps doctor on staff in Bombay?

[User] I don't think so. If there was, I never saw.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK. And so whatever had gone on with your insides?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps friend.

[Assistant] Was there a Peace Corps doctor on staff in Bombay?

[User] I don't think so. If there was, I never saw.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK. And so whatever had gone on with your insides?

[User] Apparently when I fell, I ripped something loose in one of my kidneys or my bladder. And that's why I was peeing blood. And you just the rest for about a week, let it heal up. But it was extremely painful.

[Assistant] And you sort of were on your own for X number of hours, getting the train down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. If there was, I never saw.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK. And so whatever had gone on with your insides?

[User] Apparently when I fell, I ripped something loose in one of my kidneys or my bladder. And that's why I was peeing blood. And you just the rest for about a week, let it heal up. But it was extremely painful.

[Assistant] And you sort of were on your own for X number of hours, getting the train down?

[User] Totally on my own. Yeah, I, I remember I was in such pain. I couldn't sit, I couldn't lay down. I couldn't stand. Yet I had 14 hours of that on the train before I got to Bombay. I was ready to give it up right then.

[Assistant] When you did come out of the hospital and you say maybe it's time to go home or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Apparently when I fell, I ripped something loose in one of my kidneys or my bladder. And that's why I was peeing blood. And you just the rest for about a week, let it heal up. But it was extremely painful.

[Assistant] And you sort of were on your own for X number of hours, getting the train down?

[User] Totally on my own. Yeah, I, I remember I was in such pain. I couldn't sit, I couldn't lay down. I couldn't stand. Yet I had 14 hours of that on the train before I got to Bombay. I was ready to give it up right then.

[Assistant] When you did come out of the hospital and you say maybe it's time to go home or?

[User] By that time I was feeling OK and I knew what had happened to me. And I said, well, I'm just going to make sure I don't wear my sandals in the rain again, or get sandals with that rubber soles.

[Assistant] So it seems that like you were there almost two years that your time runs out. It's not like you say, OK, Project X is done and I've set the groundwork for Project Y. Did you did you have that sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By that time I was feeling OK and I knew what had happened to me. And I said, well, I'm just going to make sure I don't wear my sandals in the rain again, or get sandals with that rubber soles.

[Assistant] So it seems that like you were there almost two years that your time runs out. It's not like you say, OK, Project X is done and I've set the groundwork for Project Y. Did you did you have that sense?

[User] I did not have that sense. Looking back on it, I wish I had had the strength to go live underneath that tree and build the pig pen myself.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I really regret not doing that.

[Assistant] Yeah, but as you came near leaving, usually there's a termination conference when your group gets back together and sort of processes the experience. Do you recall that at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did not have that sense. Looking back on it, I wish I had had the strength to go live underneath that tree and build the pig pen myself.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I really regret not doing that.

[Assistant] Yeah, but as you came near leaving, usually there's a termination conference when your group gets back together and sort of processes the experience. Do you recall that at all?

[User] Uh, no, because I left early because I was having problems with my knee. I had a bad knee from early, early years on. I been riding a bicycle and either I ran into a water buffalo, or it ran into me or something, but my knee really started to bother me. And at that time, there was nobody in the Indian hospital who could heal that kind of a bone pain. So what they did is they sent me back to Washington on a medical leave. For 30 days to be evaluated and to see what was going on.

[Assistant] This is during the second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really regret not doing that.

[Assistant] Yeah, but as you came near leaving, usually there's a termination conference when your group gets back together and sort of processes the experience. Do you recall that at all?

[User] Uh, no, because I left early because I was having problems with my knee. I had a bad knee from early, early years on. I been riding a bicycle and either I ran into a water buffalo, or it ran into me or something, but my knee really started to bother me. And at that time, there was nobody in the Indian hospital who could heal that kind of a bone pain. So what they did is they sent me back to Washington on a medical leave. For 30 days to be evaluated and to see what was going on.

[Assistant] This is during the second year?

[User] This was near the end of my second year and the bureaucracy in Washington took so long to get me in and get me evaluated, that by the time they finally figured out what was wrong with me, they said my 30 days have expired and I couldn't go back to India.

[Assistant] You had not left understanding that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, no, because I left early because I was having problems with my knee. I had a bad knee from early, early years on. I been riding a bicycle and either I ran into a water buffalo, or it ran into me or something, but my knee really started to bother me. And at that time, there was nobody in the Indian hospital who could heal that kind of a bone pain. So what they did is they sent me back to Washington on a medical leave. For 30 days to be evaluated and to see what was going on.

[Assistant] This is during the second year?

[User] This was near the end of my second year and the bureaucracy in Washington took so long to get me in and get me evaluated, that by the time they finally figured out what was wrong with me, they said my 30 days have expired and I couldn't go back to India.

[Assistant] You had not left understanding that?

[User] I had left with the understanding I was going to go back after I got treatment for my knee, which is where my duffel bag was, which is why it wound up at my friend's house, was because he said, well, I'm not just going to ship it home. So I did in fact, get an early discharge because of my knee.

[Assistant] And when you finally realized that you weren't going back and what was your sense of, you know, had it been worthwhile joining the Peace Corps and what did you look to in the future?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had left with the understanding I was going to go back after I got treatment for my knee, which is where my duffel bag was, which is why it wound up at my friend's house, was because he said, well, I'm not just going to ship it home. So I did in fact, get an early discharge because of my knee.

[Assistant] And when you finally realized that you weren't going back and what was your sense of, you know, had it been worthwhile joining the Peace Corps and what did you look to in the future?

[User] You know. I was very frustrated with the bureaucracy, both American and Indian. And I did have a, what do you call it when you have the interview, when you when you leave?

[Assistant] Termination interview.

[User] So I did have one of those and I tried to express this in Washington, in Washington, trying to express my frustration. And, you know, why don't you tell us these things while we were going through training? You know, it really would have helped if we had known about these, just like went over their heads. They didn't even want to know that. They didn't want to hear about it. You know, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Assistant] Do you know who had been responsible for developing the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know. I was very frustrated with the bureaucracy, both American and Indian. And I did have a, what do you call it when you have the interview, when you when you leave?

[Assistant] Termination interview.

[User] So I did have one of those and I tried to express this in Washington, in Washington, trying to express my frustration. And, you know, why don't you tell us these things while we were going through training? You know, it really would have helped if we had known about these, just like went over their heads. They didn't even want to know that. They didn't want to hear about it. You know, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Assistant] Do you know who had been responsible for developing the program?

[User] I don’t know. Things happen.

[Assistant] So you really felt that people hadn't done their homework and putting you there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I did have one of those and I tried to express this in Washington, in Washington, trying to express my frustration. And, you know, why don't you tell us these things while we were going through training? You know, it really would have helped if we had known about these, just like went over their heads. They didn't even want to know that. They didn't want to hear about it. You know, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Assistant] Do you know who had been responsible for developing the program?

[User] I don’t know. Things happen.

[Assistant] So you really felt that people hadn't done their homework and putting you there.

[User] I thought they could have been a lot better to prepare us more if we had known about some of the processes. Instead of concentrating on here's how you raise a pig, here's how you feed it, here's how you slaughter it. If they had said, you're going to be involved with this program and here's how you get your food, here's how you get your vets for your pigs, and here's how you get your medicine.

[Assistant] You mentioned good old Steve from Connecticut somehow raised pigs or got some pigs. What was the difference?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. Things happen.

[Assistant] So you really felt that people hadn't done their homework and putting you there.

[User] I thought they could have been a lot better to prepare us more if we had known about some of the processes. Instead of concentrating on here's how you raise a pig, here's how you feed it, here's how you slaughter it. If they had said, you're going to be involved with this program and here's how you get your food, here's how you get your vets for your pigs, and here's how you get your medicine.

[Assistant] You mentioned good old Steve from Connecticut somehow raised pigs or got some pigs. What was the difference?

[User] I mentioned the guy from Pfizer, Pfizer chemical. He was stationed where he worked near where Steve worked. So he was kind of like Steve’s liaison. He could get stuff for Steve because he was there. I was two, three hundred kilometers away. And I'd see him, I think I only saw him three times in the entire time I was there, but Steve would see him probably once or twice a week.

[Assistant] And was there much of a push from the family, the Deshmukhs, to get things done or they can content to let it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought they could have been a lot better to prepare us more if we had known about some of the processes. Instead of concentrating on here's how you raise a pig, here's how you feed it, here's how you slaughter it. If they had said, you're going to be involved with this program and here's how you get your food, here's how you get your vets for your pigs, and here's how you get your medicine.

[Assistant] You mentioned good old Steve from Connecticut somehow raised pigs or got some pigs. What was the difference?

[User] I mentioned the guy from Pfizer, Pfizer chemical. He was stationed where he worked near where Steve worked. So he was kind of like Steve’s liaison. He could get stuff for Steve because he was there. I was two, three hundred kilometers away. And I'd see him, I think I only saw him three times in the entire time I was there, but Steve would see him probably once or twice a week.

[Assistant] And was there much of a push from the family, the Deshmukhs, to get things done or they can content to let it?

[User] I think they were content because as long as they had their money in there, they were going to get their money back no matter what happened. However, the program was set up right. It was economic development for them.

[Assistant] It wasn't like they felt the commitment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mentioned the guy from Pfizer, Pfizer chemical. He was stationed where he worked near where Steve worked. So he was kind of like Steve’s liaison. He could get stuff for Steve because he was there. I was two, three hundred kilometers away. And I'd see him, I think I only saw him three times in the entire time I was there, but Steve would see him probably once or twice a week.

[Assistant] And was there much of a push from the family, the Deshmukhs, to get things done or they can content to let it?

[User] I think they were content because as long as they had their money in there, they were going to get their money back no matter what happened. However, the program was set up right. It was economic development for them.

[Assistant] It wasn't like they felt the commitment.

[User] And I didn't get the impression that they were committed to raising pigs. Yeah, I got the impression they were there for the money.

[Assistant] And that that's part of the slippage, too. And, you know, so now finally, when you realize your Peace Corps service is over, what where are you going next?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they were content because as long as they had their money in there, they were going to get their money back no matter what happened. However, the program was set up right. It was economic development for them.

[Assistant] It wasn't like they felt the commitment.

[User] And I didn't get the impression that they were committed to raising pigs. Yeah, I got the impression they were there for the money.

[Assistant] And that that's part of the slippage, too. And, you know, so now finally, when you realize your Peace Corps service is over, what where are you going next?

[User] I didn't know what I was going to do. They put me up in a hotel, motel, hotel in Washington. I was getting fourteen dollars a day for living expenses. And of course, Washington, D.C. Fourteen dollars just doesn't cover much. Go out and buy a coke and breakfast that takes care of that.

[Assistant] No one in your family came to try to visit while you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I didn't get the impression that they were committed to raising pigs. Yeah, I got the impression they were there for the money.

[Assistant] And that that's part of the slippage, too. And, you know, so now finally, when you realize your Peace Corps service is over, what where are you going next?

[User] I didn't know what I was going to do. They put me up in a hotel, motel, hotel in Washington. I was getting fourteen dollars a day for living expenses. And of course, Washington, D.C. Fourteen dollars just doesn't cover much. Go out and buy a coke and breakfast that takes care of that.

[Assistant] No one in your family came to try to visit while you were.

[User] No, because that was two thirds of the way across the country. And I was thinking, well they're going to give me a certain amount of money because your termination allowance, whatever it was. I'll just buy a car and drive back to this back home. I’ll just get a job in D.C. and, you know, in a restaurant when the dishwasher had a big fight with the with the cook, the dishwasher walked out. Hey, you guys need a dishwasher, I’m available? Well, come back tomorrow and talk to the owner. So if they said, yeah, come to work right then, then I probably would have stayed in Washington and find a place to live. By that time, I think I was ready to go back and to continue my education.

[Assistant] Where did you stand with the draft as you came home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know what I was going to do. They put me up in a hotel, motel, hotel in Washington. I was getting fourteen dollars a day for living expenses. And of course, Washington, D.C. Fourteen dollars just doesn't cover much. Go out and buy a coke and breakfast that takes care of that.

[Assistant] No one in your family came to try to visit while you were.

[User] No, because that was two thirds of the way across the country. And I was thinking, well they're going to give me a certain amount of money because your termination allowance, whatever it was. I'll just buy a car and drive back to this back home. I’ll just get a job in D.C. and, you know, in a restaurant when the dishwasher had a big fight with the with the cook, the dishwasher walked out. Hey, you guys need a dishwasher, I’m available? Well, come back tomorrow and talk to the owner. So if they said, yeah, come to work right then, then I probably would have stayed in Washington and find a place to live. By that time, I think I was ready to go back and to continue my education.

[Assistant] Where did you stand with the draft as you came home?

[User] You know, it's interesting point because I finally did not get my readjustment allowance. I went home, they gave me a train ticket to a plane ticket to go home. I went home and a few weeks later, I got my readjustment allowance. And I said to myself, well, if I don't do something, the draft is going to get me. I've got this bad knee. And they sent me home from India. I'll just go fly free. They’ll turn me down after I get my physical. Oh, they didn't. Three years later, after I got out of the Army.

[Assistant] So you enlisted.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, because that was two thirds of the way across the country. And I was thinking, well they're going to give me a certain amount of money because your termination allowance, whatever it was. I'll just buy a car and drive back to this back home. I’ll just get a job in D.C. and, you know, in a restaurant when the dishwasher had a big fight with the with the cook, the dishwasher walked out. Hey, you guys need a dishwasher, I’m available? Well, come back tomorrow and talk to the owner. So if they said, yeah, come to work right then, then I probably would have stayed in Washington and find a place to live. By that time, I think I was ready to go back and to continue my education.

[Assistant] Where did you stand with the draft as you came home?

[User] You know, it's interesting point because I finally did not get my readjustment allowance. I went home, they gave me a train ticket to a plane ticket to go home. I went home and a few weeks later, I got my readjustment allowance. And I said to myself, well, if I don't do something, the draft is going to get me. I've got this bad knee. And they sent me home from India. I'll just go fly free. They’ll turn me down after I get my physical. Oh, they didn't. Three years later, after I got out of the Army.

[Assistant] So you enlisted.

[User] So I enlisted thinking that I would not be taken because of my knee. And but the nice thing is that the Army had to operate on my knee and I've been getting disability ever since. 10 percent.

[Assistant] And did you go to Vietnam or not?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it's interesting point because I finally did not get my readjustment allowance. I went home, they gave me a train ticket to a plane ticket to go home. I went home and a few weeks later, I got my readjustment allowance. And I said to myself, well, if I don't do something, the draft is going to get me. I've got this bad knee. And they sent me home from India. I'll just go fly free. They’ll turn me down after I get my physical. Oh, they didn't. Three years later, after I got out of the Army.

[Assistant] So you enlisted.

[User] So I enlisted thinking that I would not be taken because of my knee. And but the nice thing is that the Army had to operate on my knee and I've been getting disability ever since. 10 percent.

[Assistant] And did you go to Vietnam or not?

[User] No, I was in Germany for two years. I took almost a year of training in Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, thirty five miles south of the city of New York. Signal Corps. And we always had the joke. The artillery for their colors had crossed cannons and the infantry had crossed rifles. Signal Corps had crossed wires. You know where you're going to go and you've got some to offer, go for it. It's an experience that's a once in a lifetime experience. As a matter of fact, one of the guys that I worked with for the city, I work for the city for twenty three years.

[Assistant] The city being Tucson?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I enlisted thinking that I would not be taken because of my knee. And but the nice thing is that the Army had to operate on my knee and I've been getting disability ever since. 10 percent.

[Assistant] And did you go to Vietnam or not?

[User] No, I was in Germany for two years. I took almost a year of training in Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, thirty five miles south of the city of New York. Signal Corps. And we always had the joke. The artillery for their colors had crossed cannons and the infantry had crossed rifles. Signal Corps had crossed wires. You know where you're going to go and you've got some to offer, go for it. It's an experience that's a once in a lifetime experience. As a matter of fact, one of the guys that I worked with for the city, I work for the city for twenty three years.

[Assistant] The city being Tucson?

[User] The city of Tucson and a friend of mine, we probably worked there as long as I had. And I just found out that he'd finally gotten fed up with the bureaucracy and quit and joined the Peace Corps. I have no idea where he's going, when he's going.

[Assistant] It's still there, it's still possible.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was in Germany for two years. I took almost a year of training in Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, thirty five miles south of the city of New York. Signal Corps. And we always had the joke. The artillery for their colors had crossed cannons and the infantry had crossed rifles. Signal Corps had crossed wires. You know where you're going to go and you've got some to offer, go for it. It's an experience that's a once in a lifetime experience. As a matter of fact, one of the guys that I worked with for the city, I work for the city for twenty three years.

[Assistant] The city being Tucson?

[User] The city of Tucson and a friend of mine, we probably worked there as long as I had. And I just found out that he'd finally gotten fed up with the bureaucracy and quit and joined the Peace Corps. I have no idea where he's going, when he's going.

[Assistant] It's still there, it's still possible.

[User] I don't even know what countries are still involved with the Peace Corps these days. I would imagine it's primarily out of Africa now.

[Assistant] It’s a lot. It's all over the place.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The city of Tucson and a friend of mine, we probably worked there as long as I had. And I just found out that he'd finally gotten fed up with the bureaucracy and quit and joined the Peace Corps. I have no idea where he's going, when he's going.

[Assistant] It's still there, it's still possible.

[User] I don't even know what countries are still involved with the Peace Corps these days. I would imagine it's primarily out of Africa now.

[Assistant] It’s a lot. It's all over the place.

[User] Because I know India had to drop the Peace Corps right back in the mid ‘80s, I think it was.

[Assistant] And you did mention that you had some continuing contact with the Sikh who came here. Did you have any other continuing contacts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't even know what countries are still involved with the Peace Corps these days. I would imagine it's primarily out of Africa now.

[Assistant] It’s a lot. It's all over the place.

[User] Because I know India had to drop the Peace Corps right back in the mid ‘80s, I think it was.

[Assistant] And you did mention that you had some continuing contact with the Sikh who came here. Did you have any other continuing contacts?

[User] Yes, I had another friend who is a watchmaker by trade. And we wrote back and forth for a while and he sent me the picture of his wedding where he and his bride had gotten married. And after that, somehow, well, when I when I got out of the Army, my mom and dad had gotten divorced and she moved to California to be near her family. And when I lost my home address, I think I lost a lot of contact. I never was able to pick back up.

[Assistant] Have you ever been tempted to go back to India?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I know India had to drop the Peace Corps right back in the mid ‘80s, I think it was.

[Assistant] And you did mention that you had some continuing contact with the Sikh who came here. Did you have any other continuing contacts?

[User] Yes, I had another friend who is a watchmaker by trade. And we wrote back and forth for a while and he sent me the picture of his wedding where he and his bride had gotten married. And after that, somehow, well, when I when I got out of the Army, my mom and dad had gotten divorced and she moved to California to be near her family. And when I lost my home address, I think I lost a lot of contact. I never was able to pick back up.

[Assistant] Have you ever been tempted to go back to India?

[User] Yes, I'd love to go back to India.

[Assistant] But you haven't.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had another friend who is a watchmaker by trade. And we wrote back and forth for a while and he sent me the picture of his wedding where he and his bride had gotten married. And after that, somehow, well, when I when I got out of the Army, my mom and dad had gotten divorced and she moved to California to be near her family. And when I lost my home address, I think I lost a lot of contact. I never was able to pick back up.

[Assistant] Have you ever been tempted to go back to India?

[User] Yes, I'd love to go back to India.

[Assistant] But you haven't.

[User] Haven't yet. But my daughter now is 29.

[Assistant] Do you think they finally got some pigs in the village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I'd love to go back to India.

[Assistant] But you haven't.

[User] Haven't yet. But my daughter now is 29.

[Assistant] Do you think they finally got some pigs in the village?

[User] I want to go back and see if they ever got a piggery going there. I’d love to do that.

[Assistant] But be prepared to be disappointed. Who knows.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Haven't yet. But my daughter now is 29.

[Assistant] Do you think they finally got some pigs in the village?

[User] I want to go back and see if they ever got a piggery going there. I’d love to do that.

[Assistant] But be prepared to be disappointed. Who knows.

[User] My daughter and her husband got married out of country. They were at the point where they were trying to decide how big a wedding, who you invite, blah, blah, blah. And he said, to hell with it. But so they did. They went to Scotland, got married overseas. And so every year for their wedding anniversary, they go to a different country. So we're talking about maybe, not this coming year, but maybe the next year, going to India for their wedding anniversary. There's a travel bureau that has motorcycle tours of the Himalayas.

[Assistant] How high up can you go on a motorcycle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I want to go back and see if they ever got a piggery going there. I’d love to do that.

[Assistant] But be prepared to be disappointed. Who knows.

[User] My daughter and her husband got married out of country. They were at the point where they were trying to decide how big a wedding, who you invite, blah, blah, blah. And he said, to hell with it. But so they did. They went to Scotland, got married overseas. And so every year for their wedding anniversary, they go to a different country. So we're talking about maybe, not this coming year, but maybe the next year, going to India for their wedding anniversary. There's a travel bureau that has motorcycle tours of the Himalayas.

[Assistant] How high up can you go on a motorcycle?

[User] Apparently pretty far. They provide the motorcycle. And since we've all got motorcycles now, we thought that would be a fantastic thing. And I would like to take a couple of three, maybe even months after that. Just go back and see all the things that I told myself I was going to see that I never got around to.

[Assistant] Because you couldn't play on a return trip touring around India because you suddenly came out with the knee problem and you were in Washington and didn't have the chance to go back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My daughter and her husband got married out of country. They were at the point where they were trying to decide how big a wedding, who you invite, blah, blah, blah. And he said, to hell with it. But so they did. They went to Scotland, got married overseas. And so every year for their wedding anniversary, they go to a different country. So we're talking about maybe, not this coming year, but maybe the next year, going to India for their wedding anniversary. There's a travel bureau that has motorcycle tours of the Himalayas.

[Assistant] How high up can you go on a motorcycle?

[User] Apparently pretty far. They provide the motorcycle. And since we've all got motorcycles now, we thought that would be a fantastic thing. And I would like to take a couple of three, maybe even months after that. Just go back and see all the things that I told myself I was going to see that I never got around to.

[Assistant] Because you couldn't play on a return trip touring around India because you suddenly came out with the knee problem and you were in Washington and didn't have the chance to go back.

[User] My dream at the time was once I got back to India, I'll see if I could get out in India and then travel overland to Europe.

[Assistant] And in the ‘60s, that was fairly common. I mean, people would terminate in their country and then you could get a plane ticket with twenty five stops and the opportunities were there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Apparently pretty far. They provide the motorcycle. And since we've all got motorcycles now, we thought that would be a fantastic thing. And I would like to take a couple of three, maybe even months after that. Just go back and see all the things that I told myself I was going to see that I never got around to.

[Assistant] Because you couldn't play on a return trip touring around India because you suddenly came out with the knee problem and you were in Washington and didn't have the chance to go back.

[User] My dream at the time was once I got back to India, I'll see if I could get out in India and then travel overland to Europe.

[Assistant] And in the ‘60s, that was fairly common. I mean, people would terminate in their country and then you could get a plane ticket with twenty five stops and the opportunities were there.

[User] Well, I did manage to do that in the Army. I had been discharged from Germany and they gave me a year to go do what I wanted to do and I could still get a ticket back home. And I think, I think I travel for about four or five months. And then I had enrolled at the University of New Mexico. About three weeks before I was due to enroll, I went in, got my ticket, sold the vehicle I had been travelling in to a friend of mine. And but I did have that period of time. I wish I had been able to do that for me. I've always wanted to go over the Khyber Pass and the reason that just strikes me.

[Assistant] It’s not a healthy place to be right now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My dream at the time was once I got back to India, I'll see if I could get out in India and then travel overland to Europe.

[Assistant] And in the ‘60s, that was fairly common. I mean, people would terminate in their country and then you could get a plane ticket with twenty five stops and the opportunities were there.

[User] Well, I did manage to do that in the Army. I had been discharged from Germany and they gave me a year to go do what I wanted to do and I could still get a ticket back home. And I think, I think I travel for about four or five months. And then I had enrolled at the University of New Mexico. About three weeks before I was due to enroll, I went in, got my ticket, sold the vehicle I had been travelling in to a friend of mine. And but I did have that period of time. I wish I had been able to do that for me. I've always wanted to go over the Khyber Pass and the reason that just strikes me.

[Assistant] It’s not a healthy place to be right now.

[User] Right now it's not a good place. But back in the sixties, yes, it would have been a fantastic thing to go over.

[Assistant] Anything else for the archives that you'd like to mention related to Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I did manage to do that in the Army. I had been discharged from Germany and they gave me a year to go do what I wanted to do and I could still get a ticket back home. And I think, I think I travel for about four or five months. And then I had enrolled at the University of New Mexico. About three weeks before I was due to enroll, I went in, got my ticket, sold the vehicle I had been travelling in to a friend of mine. And but I did have that period of time. I wish I had been able to do that for me. I've always wanted to go over the Khyber Pass and the reason that just strikes me.

[Assistant] It’s not a healthy place to be right now.

[User] Right now it's not a good place. But back in the sixties, yes, it would have been a fantastic thing to go over.

[Assistant] Anything else for the archives that you'd like to mention related to Peace Corps?

[User] Um, my advice to anybody going into the Peace Corps is make sure you have enough time to really explore the country itself, not just be there to do the job that you think you sent there to do all right. The thing that strikes me that somebody told us during our training or during our flowery speeches was that we were America's goodwill ambassadors. And I think that that is far more important than raising a pig or two. And I think that by going around the country and seeing the country and being with people, you're fulfilling that job. And I did manage to spend a lot of time with friends and acquaintances in India, going to places, Bishop gave me a ride up to the hill station one time, which I thought was kind of interesting because he didn't try to convert me.

[Assistant] But and that's the second goal of the Peace Corps is, is to allow people in other cultures to become aware of Americans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] Just had a few things to follow up on, to start with. You talked in your first oral history about leaving the Air Force and going to work for Hughes [Aircraft Company] on the Surveyor Project.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You were working on analysis. If you could tell us something about what that entailed and your duties on that.

[User] Well, the title is pretty much self-descriptive, but specifically what I was doing is the Surveyor was assumed by Hughes, control was assumed by Hughes once it was inserted into orbit, in the Earth orbit or immediately upon separation from the booster, basically. So we were responsible for controlling the flight to the Moon and landing on the Moon.\n\n The two major events involved in that, of course, were the midcourse correction activities and the terminal descent. Specifically what I worked on was a lot of the work associated with what we called the nonstandard operations associated with those two events, what could go wrong, what would be the response to it. It was basically malfunction procedures. Had I been doing the same thing here at Johnson, we would have called them malfunction procedures. I think we called them nonstandard procedures or something like that out there.\n\n So that’s basically what I worked on. I was responsible for developing the contingency operations activities for the Surveyor. That’s what I did for two years, basically.\n\n When I went to work on the project, I thought we were closer to launch then we were, but it turned out this thing was launched by an Atlas Centaur. Centaur had some development difficulties, and we ended up slipping for basically a couple of years. They ended up having performance problems. Surveyor had been designed initially for 2500-pound weight, roughly 2500 pounds. Turned out they couldn’t launch that much to the Moon, so we had to knock about 400 pounds out of it.

[Assistant] That’s pretty significant.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I thought that was very nice. That was neat. Good to see that happen.

[Assistant] Yes. Well, you had mentioned in the first interview that it was a difficult decision for you to come to NASA and to leave the Surveyor Project.

[User] Yes, because working for Ed Pfund, we only had staffed up to about eight or nine people. I was his kind of number two guy there, and we had approval to go to like thirty right off the bat. So I walked away from a pretty good opportunity with Hughes.\n\n But in terms of job satisfaction, this was the place to be, and I don’t regret that. In terms of financial rewards, I’d probably have made more money at Hughes. In fact that’s, what they told me, “We’ll always pay you more money than the government will ever pay you,” and they’re right. But at the same time, this was the place to be, so I don’t regret it.\n\n In fact, I consider myself pretty lucky to have worked at JSC in the time frame that we worked there. It would be a much more difficult choice nowadays, I mean, for a fellow who was at my age at that time. It doesn’t look as bright here as it did in those days. But, no, I don’t regret coming down here. Enjoyed it.

[Assistant] Good. It certainly is a very different world nowadays.

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah. It’s very much different than it was when we came down.

[Assistant] Well, we talked a lot in the first interview about the simulations area that you moved into, which seems now it was very closely connected with what you had done on the Surveyor Project. I wanted to go in a little more detail on some of that simulations work, some of the different types that there were and maybe if you had any examples or particular memories of a particular simulation where something might have—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I notice [in your notes] you broke them out into simulated remote site exercises and launch aborts and reentries and everything. But the best way to look at this thing, if you’re having trouble figuring out what in the world was going on there, all the simulations involved either the launch, the on-orbit, or the entry mission phase. But depending on who you were training, it was either a simulated remote site exercise or a simulated network simulation or a network simulation.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Now, we had these simulated remote sites. So what we did in simulated remote sites—remember also in those days we were still deploying teams of people to all these remote sites, all these—

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Because the communications, at least in terms of data flow communications, was not good enough, was not of a sufficient capacity to allow you to do a good vehicle analysis back here. You had be on the other site out here to do this.\n\n We didn’t have TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite] satellites. We didn’t have full-time coverage. Anyway, the simulated remote site exercises were designed to be just exactly that. It was the remote site team, and it was practice for them contained within their own team.

[Assistant] So just their aspect of—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn’t make that transition quite so easily.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] They liked to look at bits. They did in those days. So anyway that’s—

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] That was mostly a data flow exercise. The training took place when we could close the loop on the simulation system.

[Assistant] So the more detailed anomalies would be—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They liked to look at bits. They did in those days. So anyway that’s—

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] That was mostly a data flow exercise. The training took place when we could close the loop on the simulation system.

[Assistant] So the more detailed anomalies would be—

[User] They were in the sim net sims.

[Assistant] — really worked out in this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The network simulations, the way we generated those tapes was by recording sim net sims.

[Assistant] Oh. Okay.

[User] We would record those. You would run one that was fairly nominal. We called them nominal. But it meant that you didn’t have many problems. That’s what we normally use for network simulations, something that didn’t have a lot of problems to it.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] So they’re data flow exercises.

[Assistant] And so both the sim net sims and the network sims were for the entire mission then? Would those be run continually from start to finish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they’re data flow exercises.

[Assistant] And so both the sim net sims and the network sims were for the entire mission then? Would those be run continually from start to finish?

[User] Sometimes they were. We have run twenty-four-hour-long network simulations, run them around the clock, just to exercise the handovers and everything. But, yeah, they are mostly full mission. In fact, we used to call them full mission simulations.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That term was used at times. In fact, I think we called the simulator a full mission simulator. I think that’s what we named it. But most of the exercises, launch sims, of course, you run ten minutes and you turn around and you try to run as many as you can in a day. Entry sims are sort of the same kind of thing, but they are a little bit longer, forty minutes or so. So you can run a half dozen in a day. Launch sims you could do more, though, if the crew can tolerate it.\n\n But sim net sims are typically one a day. Sometimes you might run a four-hour model, but usually they’re eight hours to last all day. And occasionally you run them twenty-four hours to exercise the team handover operations. We used to do that quite frequently. Well, once or twice a mission we would do those.

[Assistant] Do you recall the frequency of—I know you’re not going to recall the exact scheduling, but of, say, how many times in a week or how many hours in a week might be dedicated to sims?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we’d run three or four days a week.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] You might run two sim net sims in a week. You might run a day of launch aborts and maybe a day of entry, all in one week. It was very common. Things were tight schedule, remember. We were flying every two months, remember.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It was very tight. It was very tight. We were still very much rushed. But, yeah, we didn’t like to train every day, because people do need to do some work. They need to go back in the office and react and get ready for next week’s simulation.

[Assistant] Sure. Work through some of the problems they encountered.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very tight. It was very tight. We were still very much rushed. But, yeah, we didn’t like to train every day, because people do need to do some work. They need to go back in the office and react and get ready for next week’s simulation.

[Assistant] Sure. Work through some of the problems they encountered.

[User] But with the team shifting and everything that was available with the flight control team, you’re talking about maybe five teams of people, you see, flight controllers.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Not that many on launches or entries, you might have two teams or maybe just one occasionally. But you might have three or four teams of orbit people. So if you run a couple days of simulation a week, somebody is still not getting as much time as he would like to get. But we ran quite frequently.

[Assistant] You said that basically this pattern of simulations that was set up at this time is essentially what they’re still working with today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They probably are emphasizing the added-on components or the elements as they come up each flight.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] They’re probably emphasizing the assembly part more so than the payload activities. The assembly thing has to work.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Then the payload stuff ultimately will have to work, but right now it doesn’t have to right now. They’ll get to a point where they’ll be emphasizing payloads probably or either no training at all. It may get to the point where the crew just goes up and does it.

[Assistant] So was Apollo then essentially similar as well to Gemini?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is because Gene, in particular, and I think Glynn Lunney to a major extent, always felt that the simulation exercise was really a development tool. It wasn’t really just a training thing. It was a development tool.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] To help them develop their processes and procedures and then validate them so a major component of the simulation planning associated with that.\n\n In fact, if you look at the Shuttle in those days, the Shuttle simulator was really the first opportunity for the crew to interact with the onboard software. That’s where the crew really first saw the software and, more importantly, where the software first saw the crew. A lot of problems were found in the Shuttle simulator in the flight software that got reported back and were worked out because they were able to do that. So that’s an example of how the environment really is a developmental environment.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] It helps in that regard. A lot of that went on. Probably still does. Maybe not to the extent that it did in those days, because I don’t think the simulators are as good. I don’t think the Space Station simulator, for example, represents as much of the Space Station as the Shuttle simulator did of the Shuttle, if you know what I’m saying. It’s not as hi-fi [high fidelity].

[Assistant] Having mentioned—sorry, go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To help them develop their processes and procedures and then validate them so a major component of the simulation planning associated with that.\n\n In fact, if you look at the Shuttle in those days, the Shuttle simulator was really the first opportunity for the crew to interact with the onboard software. That’s where the crew really first saw the software and, more importantly, where the software first saw the crew. A lot of problems were found in the Shuttle simulator in the flight software that got reported back and were worked out because they were able to do that. So that’s an example of how the environment really is a developmental environment.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] It helps in that regard. A lot of that went on. Probably still does. Maybe not to the extent that it did in those days, because I don’t think the simulators are as good. I don’t think the Space Station simulator, for example, represents as much of the Space Station as the Shuttle simulator did of the Shuttle, if you know what I’m saying. It’s not as hi-fi [high fidelity].

[Assistant] Having mentioned—sorry, go ahead.

[User] I was just going to say I’m sure those guys are over there trying to do the best they can with it, though.

[Assistant] Oh, yes.\n\n Having mentioned the crew and talking about all the various simulations, as you said, there was a role of astro sim, but there were times that the actual flight crew participated in the simulations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the guys who were a couple of flights downstream were always more than anxious to volunteer for any simulator time they could find. You really couldn’t justify letting somebody who wasn’t going to fly go spend time in there flying this simulator because of that.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So we always had crewmen.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] In those days also we also always had a backup crew. They don’t always have backup crews nowadays so much, but in those days there were always two crew per flight. So we had plenty of crewmen.

[Assistant] Looking also at differences between Gemini and Apollo, if there were some, again, you had mentioned the network simulations. Well, on Apollo, the network was very different than on Gemini.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Call up Joe and ask him what he thinks about something. It’s a different world.

[Assistant] Very different.

[User] It’s different now. Much more relaxed and much better. It’s much better this way.\n\n But in the early days it was difficult. One of the things you had to do with the training and the simulation was to try to discipline that or instill that kind of discipline in the communications that were going on with the crew. But TDRS did away with all that.

[Assistant] Well, you had to make do with what you had have available, though—

[User] You had to make do with what you had to do.

[Assistant] —and did good with that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s different now. Much more relaxed and much better. It’s much better this way.\n\n But in the early days it was difficult. One of the things you had to do with the training and the simulation was to try to discipline that or instill that kind of discipline in the communications that were going on with the crew. But TDRS did away with all that.

[Assistant] Well, you had to make do with what you had have available, though—

[User] You had to make do with what you had to do.

[Assistant] —and did good with that.

[User] Yeah. That’s why the sim net sims had pretty good value. We could practice that, and we’d just turn the data on and off based on the orbital computation as to whether it said this thing should be in acquisition or should not be in acquisition. More than one conversation got cut off in the middle. People missed updates that they should have read up and things of that type. In the training, not so much in the mission.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, that’s what the training’s for, is to learn how to do it right for the mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You had to make do with what you had to do.

[Assistant] —and did good with that.

[User] Yeah. That’s why the sim net sims had pretty good value. We could practice that, and we’d just turn the data on and off based on the orbital computation as to whether it said this thing should be in acquisition or should not be in acquisition. More than one conversation got cut off in the middle. People missed updates that they should have read up and things of that type. In the training, not so much in the mission.

[Assistant] Sure. Well, that’s what the training’s for, is to learn how to do it right for the mission.

[User] That’s what it was for. Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, looking back over your entire career with NASA, what would you consider your biggest challenge, and what you consider your most significant accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I tell you, I think we had like eight major activities that we wanted to support utilization-wise on Space Station. I think they’re down to like one of those left now. So Space Station has really shrunk in terms of what it was expected to be.\n\n For example, when we initially conceptualized it, drug manufacture was to be a big deal. In fact, we had one study performed that said that by the year 2000 — remember, we were going to fly in 1992 — by the year 2000 that drug manufacture or the drug industry, based on space manufacture, would be like $50 billion a year.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] By the year 2000. That was the study that was performed in ‘85, ‘86, somewhere in there. Most of that was based on a process called electrophoresis. You may remember that.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Johnson & Johnson was involved in it, along with McDonnell Douglas. That turned out not to pan out too well, because what really happened is genetic engineering and a few other ground-based processes kind of overtook it. It’s still better, but it’s not that much better. So it turned out not to be such a good deal.\n\n The other thing that happened was, after we did the Phase B definition, the Space Station and the prime emphasis became development, hardware development. I think people forgot all about why they were building it. The utilization people sort of got shuffled off to the back, and all those advisory committees pretty much went by the by. They’re just now beginning to realize again that, hey, this thing really is—I don’t know if you’ve read the Young Committee report. Have you been following that?

[Assistant] No, not directly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was chaired by Tom [A. Thomas] Young. It has recommended some major changes in NASA and in the Johnson Space Center and the Space Station Program, one of which is this thing is a science program, give it to the scientists. That’s basically what it says. So if you haven’t read that—do you ever read a thing called\n\n NASA Watch\n\n ?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] It must be on\n\n NASA Watch\n\n . Look on\n\n NASA Watch\n\n , and you’ll find a copy of the report.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] The other thing that would be very worthwhile reading for you if you want to know what’s going on in the space business, this report in particular, there’s a guy by the name of Sean O’Keefe, who’s deputy manager of the OMB [Office of Management and Budget]. He and Tom Young testified just yesterday, in fact, to the House Science Committee. You should read those statements, O’Keefe’s in particular, because that reflects the administration’s view of what they want to do with Space Station. So it’s interesting.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Especially since we’re in the process now of trying to find a new administrator and a new center director.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It must be on\n\n NASA Watch\n\n . Look on\n\n NASA Watch\n\n , and you’ll find a copy of the report.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] The other thing that would be very worthwhile reading for you if you want to know what’s going on in the space business, this report in particular, there’s a guy by the name of Sean O’Keefe, who’s deputy manager of the OMB [Office of Management and Budget]. He and Tom Young testified just yesterday, in fact, to the House Science Committee. You should read those statements, O’Keefe’s in particular, because that reflects the administration’s view of what they want to do with Space Station. So it’s interesting.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Especially since we’re in the process now of trying to find a new administrator and a new center director.

[User] That’s part of the problem. Not only administrator, but you need an associate administrator, and I guess we need a center director. Tommy [W.] Holloway, I guess, is the ranking Space Station guy.

[Assistant] I believe so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The other thing that would be very worthwhile reading for you if you want to know what’s going on in the space business, this report in particular, there’s a guy by the name of Sean O’Keefe, who’s deputy manager of the OMB [Office of Management and Budget]. He and Tom Young testified just yesterday, in fact, to the House Science Committee. You should read those statements, O’Keefe’s in particular, because that reflects the administration’s view of what they want to do with Space Station. So it’s interesting.

[Assistant] Absolutely. Especially since we’re in the process now of trying to find a new administrator and a new center director.

[User] That’s part of the problem. Not only administrator, but you need an associate administrator, and I guess we need a center director. Tommy [W.] Holloway, I guess, is the ranking Space Station guy.

[Assistant] I believe so.

[User] But there are three vacancies above him, so that’s going to be interesting.

[Assistant] It will be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s part of the problem. Not only administrator, but you need an associate administrator, and I guess we need a center director. Tommy [W.] Holloway, I guess, is the ranking Space Station guy.

[Assistant] I believe so.

[User] But there are three vacancies above him, so that’s going to be interesting.

[Assistant] It will be.

[User] It be will interesting.

[Assistant] I think NASA is in for a little bit of change here for the future.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It be will interesting.

[Assistant] I think NASA is in for a little bit of change here for the future.

[User] Well, they are. I sat through three of those Tom Young committee meetings, task force meetings, supporting Japanese people. It’s fair what they’ve concluded. I mean, I think they did a pretty good job. At the same time I think the Space Station program did a pretty good job of presenting their situation to them as well. It’s just there are honest disagreements about where you should be and what you should be doing. Tom Young’s view, very clearly, is that this program is a science support program and should be orchestrated by scientists, not by a manned space flight infrastructure, and that’s what he’s recommended.

[Assistant] Very interesting.

[User] So it will be interesting to see what happens out of that.

[Assistant] Very much so. Very much so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they are. I sat through three of those Tom Young committee meetings, task force meetings, supporting Japanese people. It’s fair what they’ve concluded. I mean, I think they did a pretty good job. At the same time I think the Space Station program did a pretty good job of presenting their situation to them as well. It’s just there are honest disagreements about where you should be and what you should be doing. Tom Young’s view, very clearly, is that this program is a science support program and should be orchestrated by scientists, not by a manned space flight infrastructure, and that’s what he’s recommended.

[Assistant] Very interesting.

[User] So it will be interesting to see what happens out of that.

[Assistant] Very much so. Very much so.

[User] You may have some new history you can write on JSC.

[Assistant] Well, we are always looking for new history and ongoing history.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It will change the flavor of how JSC will support the program.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] It’s not going to move the program anywhere else, I don’t think, but they’ll have to adopt a different view, JSC. The problems that we had, even when I was working utilization, in the early days of Space Station, there were big arguments even in those days about JSC did not have high enough ranking advocates for science. Most people are arguing that, well, you ought to do this at some other center. You ought to operate the station somewhere else because JSC doesn’t attribute a lot of importance to the science community.\n\n It was true that you could go to Marshall and you could find someone who reported directly to the center director was a scientist. JSC, you’d find him about four levels down. That’s another thing Tom Young’s recommended. He wants a program scientist put on as a deputy manager of the program here. Plus he wants them both to report to the associate administrator for Space Station, who will be a scientist.

[Assistant] Very interesting.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I will definitely have to check that out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s not going to move the program anywhere else, I don’t think, but they’ll have to adopt a different view, JSC. The problems that we had, even when I was working utilization, in the early days of Space Station, there were big arguments even in those days about JSC did not have high enough ranking advocates for science. Most people are arguing that, well, you ought to do this at some other center. You ought to operate the station somewhere else because JSC doesn’t attribute a lot of importance to the science community.\n\n It was true that you could go to Marshall and you could find someone who reported directly to the center director was a scientist. JSC, you’d find him about four levels down. That’s another thing Tom Young’s recommended. He wants a program scientist put on as a deputy manager of the program here. Plus he wants them both to report to the associate administrator for Space Station, who will be a scientist.

[Assistant] Very interesting.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] I will definitely have to check that out.

[User] Check it out and read those.

[Assistant] Thank you for—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can’t work in a place for thirty-five years. We all love this place.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Not much we can do, other than kibbutz from the sideline, though.

[Assistant] True.

[User] Nowadays.

[Assistant] Well, one last quick question. Looking back again over your career at NASA, were there any particular individuals that really either impacted your career or that you think were very significant to the program as a whole?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Have you talked to John Aaron?

[Assistant] We have.

[User] Tell him to send you the Tindallgrams.

[Assistant] Definitely.

[User] I’m pretty sure he’s got them all. There may be some other people that have them. I don’t know, but John’s got them. John’s got them.

[Assistant] We’ll check on that. Because, unfortunately, he’s one of the people that we obviously haven’t been able to talk to about the project, Bill Tindall, but we have talked to a lot of people about him and certainly—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tell him to send you the Tindallgrams.

[Assistant] Definitely.

[User] I’m pretty sure he’s got them all. There may be some other people that have them. I don’t know, but John’s got them. John’s got them.

[Assistant] We’ll check on that. Because, unfortunately, he’s one of the people that we obviously haven’t been able to talk to about the project, Bill Tindall, but we have talked to a lot of people about him and certainly—

[User] Phil [Philip C.] Shaffer, have you ever talked to Phil Shaffer?

[Assistant] Yes, we have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He would know all about Bill Tindall, too.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He might be one of the first guys I’d talk to, Shaffer, about him. He can tell you all about Tindall. John can tell you about lots of things.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Shuttle, Station, Skylab.

[Assistant] We were able to do a couple sessions with him.