[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, my background is my relatives were all military. I was used to being a government subsidy or a government person. And yes, and the kind of person I am, I felt loyalty to the Peace Corps. I felt this was my organization that I belonged to. I don't know that everybody felt the same way. I had heard many negative reports about training, even about Outward Bound, which my husband and I felt was one of the best experiences in our lives we've ever had. And we felt that way right afterwards, whereas a lot of people in our group felt it was very negative and didn't like it. And I don't know how they feel about it now. But there were lots of different feelings about the whole organization.

My experience has been, since I have a daughter who was in the Peace Corps too, and I was a staff wife at one point, that the worst thing that volunteers. Well, one of the worst things that they encounter is their antagonism toward the administration. And they're always going to be fighting the administration. And unlike many jobs, it's the volunteers who are doing the job that was supposed to be done. It's not the administration that's there to be the administration. I mean, they're there as backup, but it's the people on the bottom that are there doing the job.

[Assistant] Interesting point.

[User] And it's an interesting way to, um, to see a structure of an organization and have to deal with people. When you get somebody in who is a supervisor or a boss, he's often used to knowing everything and telling people how he wants them to behave. And in the Peace Corps, it's often the other way around. The volunteer is the person who knows the things.

[Assistant] Yeah, so you went Denver, two weeks in Mexico at the UNESCO Training Center.

[User] Right. And the other half, the urban half, went to San Antonio.

[Assistant] So at that point, there was an urban rural split made in the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's an interesting way to, um, to see a structure of an organization and have to deal with people. When you get somebody in who is a supervisor or a boss, he's often used to knowing everything and telling people how he wants them to behave. And in the Peace Corps, it's often the other way around. The volunteer is the person who knows the things.

[Assistant] Yeah, so you went Denver, two weeks in Mexico at the UNESCO Training Center.

[User] Right. And the other half, the urban half, went to San Antonio.

[Assistant] So at that point, there was an urban rural split made in the group?

[User] Yeah, but it still wasn't guaranteed that it would be.

[Assistant] And that was a good experience in that you were totally you were in a complete Spanish language environment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And the other half, the urban half, went to San Antonio.

[Assistant] So at that point, there was an urban rural split made in the group?

[User] Yeah, but it still wasn't guaranteed that it would be.

[Assistant] And that was a good experience in that you were totally you were in a complete Spanish language environment?

[User] Right. I meant to say while we were being lectured in Spanish by knowledgeable people about community action, we didn't all understand everything that was being said. We understood according to our Spanish level. But sometimes when you're in a situation like that, things just go over your head. As much as you try very hard to listen to everything, there reaches a point at which you're saturated and you just can't understand anymore.

[Assistant] And again, sitting in a lecture hall, listening to Spanish and maybe even asking a few questions is still different than the way you're going to use language once you're in the country. You're going to use it by saying, I'd like to buy a loaf of bread, or something, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but it still wasn't guaranteed that it would be.

[Assistant] And that was a good experience in that you were totally you were in a complete Spanish language environment?

[User] Right. I meant to say while we were being lectured in Spanish by knowledgeable people about community action, we didn't all understand everything that was being said. We understood according to our Spanish level. But sometimes when you're in a situation like that, things just go over your head. As much as you try very hard to listen to everything, there reaches a point at which you're saturated and you just can't understand anymore.

[Assistant] And again, sitting in a lecture hall, listening to Spanish and maybe even asking a few questions is still different than the way you're going to use language once you're in the country. You're going to use it by saying, I'd like to buy a loaf of bread, or something, I mean.

[User] Well, we did that in our five hours a day. In the three hours that we had, we were eight people in a room with somebody who kept us talking all the time. Made us devise skits, made us interact and work together and come up with all the local things. I think that they were told to do that.

[Assistant] And you were feeling comfortable with your ability in language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I meant to say while we were being lectured in Spanish by knowledgeable people about community action, we didn't all understand everything that was being said. We understood according to our Spanish level. But sometimes when you're in a situation like that, things just go over your head. As much as you try very hard to listen to everything, there reaches a point at which you're saturated and you just can't understand anymore.

[Assistant] And again, sitting in a lecture hall, listening to Spanish and maybe even asking a few questions is still different than the way you're going to use language once you're in the country. You're going to use it by saying, I'd like to buy a loaf of bread, or something, I mean.

[User] Well, we did that in our five hours a day. In the three hours that we had, we were eight people in a room with somebody who kept us talking all the time. Made us devise skits, made us interact and work together and come up with all the local things. I think that they were told to do that.

[Assistant] And you were feeling comfortable with your ability in language?

[User] Yes. If I'd been given a quiz after one of these lectures, though, I don't know that I would have done very well, but I was gaining. We went to markets and things, and we were able to say a few words and I was feeling somewhat comfortable.

[Assistant] And were you still in a dorm setting when you were in Mexico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we did that in our five hours a day. In the three hours that we had, we were eight people in a room with somebody who kept us talking all the time. Made us devise skits, made us interact and work together and come up with all the local things. I think that they were told to do that.

[Assistant] And you were feeling comfortable with your ability in language?

[User] Yes. If I'd been given a quiz after one of these lectures, though, I don't know that I would have done very well, but I was gaining. We went to markets and things, and we were able to say a few words and I was feeling somewhat comfortable.

[Assistant] And were you still in a dorm setting when you were in Mexico?

[User] No, it wasn't a dorm. I can't, I can't remember exactly. I think that there were rooms, like they might have maybe two people in a room or something like that. Sort of like a motel where they would have put people up for the United Nations.

[Assistant] What after the two weeks in Mexico?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. If I'd been given a quiz after one of these lectures, though, I don't know that I would have done very well, but I was gaining. We went to markets and things, and we were able to say a few words and I was feeling somewhat comfortable.

[Assistant] And were you still in a dorm setting when you were in Mexico?

[User] No, it wasn't a dorm. I can't, I can't remember exactly. I think that there were rooms, like they might have maybe two people in a room or something like that. Sort of like a motel where they would have put people up for the United Nations.

[Assistant] What after the two weeks in Mexico?

[User] Then we were flown to San Antonio, where we were sworn-in in the airport. We were met with the San Antonio group. We were sworn-in as Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] And the urban group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn't a dorm. I can't, I can't remember exactly. I think that there were rooms, like they might have maybe two people in a room or something like that. Sort of like a motel where they would have put people up for the United Nations.

[Assistant] What after the two weeks in Mexico?

[User] Then we were flown to San Antonio, where we were sworn-in in the airport. We were met with the San Antonio group. We were sworn-in as Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] And the urban group?

[User] The urban group was in San Antonio. We came up. And we didn't get out of the airport. We were just flown there and then met them. Everybody, there was no deselection after the last week or two. I mean, after we were split up. Everybody who was sent there was accepted. You were still given a chance to get out of it if you wanted to get out of it. And then the same day we were flown to Miami and we were supposed to catch a plane for Ecuador. The plane was delayed for mechanical reasons, and it went on forever and ever, and we were very tired after going Mexico, San Antonio, Miami.

[Assistant] Was it charter or regular flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then we were flown to San Antonio, where we were sworn-in in the airport. We were met with the San Antonio group. We were sworn-in as Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] And the urban group?

[User] The urban group was in San Antonio. We came up. And we didn't get out of the airport. We were just flown there and then met them. Everybody, there was no deselection after the last week or two. I mean, after we were split up. Everybody who was sent there was accepted. You were still given a chance to get out of it if you wanted to get out of it. And then the same day we were flown to Miami and we were supposed to catch a plane for Ecuador. The plane was delayed for mechanical reasons, and it went on forever and ever, and we were very tired after going Mexico, San Antonio, Miami.

[Assistant] Was it charter or regular flight?

[User] Regular flight, Panagra. And it was delayed, delayed, delayed. And we were. It was the middle of the night, 2:00 in the morning, something like that. And we didn't have hotel rooms. I think a couple of volunteers splurged and there was a hotel in the Miami airport and they went to a hotel room. But the rest of us were sitting or sleeping on those where they had an exhibit with an automobile on a platform with carpeting. They were lying on the carpeting. And we finally took off and got down to Ecuador.

[Assistant] Now this at that point, how long had you been in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The urban group was in San Antonio. We came up. And we didn't get out of the airport. We were just flown there and then met them. Everybody, there was no deselection after the last week or two. I mean, after we were split up. Everybody who was sent there was accepted. You were still given a chance to get out of it if you wanted to get out of it. And then the same day we were flown to Miami and we were supposed to catch a plane for Ecuador. The plane was delayed for mechanical reasons, and it went on forever and ever, and we were very tired after going Mexico, San Antonio, Miami.

[Assistant] Was it charter or regular flight?

[User] Regular flight, Panagra. And it was delayed, delayed, delayed. And we were. It was the middle of the night, 2:00 in the morning, something like that. And we didn't have hotel rooms. I think a couple of volunteers splurged and there was a hotel in the Miami airport and they went to a hotel room. But the rest of us were sitting or sleeping on those where they had an exhibit with an automobile on a platform with carpeting. They were lying on the carpeting. And we finally took off and got down to Ecuador.

[Assistant] Now this at that point, how long had you been in the Peace Corps?

[User] It was a total of four months of training, I think.

[Assistant] OK. All right. And you were going with the expectation that you would do 20 months as a volunteer, in other words, for a two year tour all together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Regular flight, Panagra. And it was delayed, delayed, delayed. And we were. It was the middle of the night, 2:00 in the morning, something like that. And we didn't have hotel rooms. I think a couple of volunteers splurged and there was a hotel in the Miami airport and they went to a hotel room. But the rest of us were sitting or sleeping on those where they had an exhibit with an automobile on a platform with carpeting. They were lying on the carpeting. And we finally took off and got down to Ecuador.

[Assistant] Now this at that point, how long had you been in the Peace Corps?

[User] It was a total of four months of training, I think.

[Assistant] OK. All right. And you were going with the expectation that you would do 20 months as a volunteer, in other words, for a two year tour all together?

[User] I wasn't aware whether it was 20 months or 24 months in.

[Assistant] At that point. It wasn't a concern.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a total of four months of training, I think.

[Assistant] OK. All right. And you were going with the expectation that you would do 20 months as a volunteer, in other words, for a two year tour all together?

[User] I wasn't aware whether it was 20 months or 24 months in.

[Assistant] At that point. It wasn't a concern.

[User] No. I called, I was instructed by Mike, with whom I had been writing letters since he had been deselected. We'd been exchanging letters, actually it turned out to be on a daily basis. And he said, you must call me. Call me collect from the airport. It's urgent. And so I called him, and he proposed. Now we had never dated. We had never gone out. We had been in class together for a couple of months. But anyway, I accepted tentatively. I accepted.

[Assistant] Well that's funny because you're about to get on a plane to go to Ecuador.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't aware whether it was 20 months or 24 months in.

[Assistant] At that point. It wasn't a concern.

[User] No. I called, I was instructed by Mike, with whom I had been writing letters since he had been deselected. We'd been exchanging letters, actually it turned out to be on a daily basis. And he said, you must call me. Call me collect from the airport. It's urgent. And so I called him, and he proposed. Now we had never dated. We had never gone out. We had been in class together for a couple of months. But anyway, I accepted tentatively. I accepted.

[Assistant] Well that's funny because you're about to get on a plane to go to Ecuador.

[User] Yeah, I told him that I was committed to this project. I really, I did not want to quit. I did not want to. I was committed to this enterprise and his proposal said in two years or whenever we can, whenever we can. Meanwhile, he was looking for a job in Latin America because his training had been in Latin America, and that's what he wanted to do. And he did get a job in Venezuela, in Acción in Venezuela, a private. It started the same year the same month as the Peace Corps, but it was a private community action. [tape break] Yes and.

[Assistant] Let me just. This is tape two, Julia Mehrer. OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I called, I was instructed by Mike, with whom I had been writing letters since he had been deselected. We'd been exchanging letters, actually it turned out to be on a daily basis. And he said, you must call me. Call me collect from the airport. It's urgent. And so I called him, and he proposed. Now we had never dated. We had never gone out. We had been in class together for a couple of months. But anyway, I accepted tentatively. I accepted.

[Assistant] Well that's funny because you're about to get on a plane to go to Ecuador.

[User] Yeah, I told him that I was committed to this project. I really, I did not want to quit. I did not want to. I was committed to this enterprise and his proposal said in two years or whenever we can, whenever we can. Meanwhile, he was looking for a job in Latin America because his training had been in Latin America, and that's what he wanted to do. And he did get a job in Venezuela, in Acción in Venezuela, a private. It started the same year the same month as the Peace Corps, but it was a private community action. [tape break] Yes and.

[Assistant] Let me just. This is tape two, Julia Mehrer. OK.

[User] So we agreed that whenever we could manage it. And both of us realized without saying it that if we waited for two years, we probably would have grown in different ways and it most likely was not going to work. So it was just in the back of our minds. But I didn't really know what I was going to do about it because I was going down to a job that I expected to have for two years.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So you finally got out of the airport and down to Ecuador with the marriage proposal in mind, but also the now ready to start work as a volunteer. Take it from there. I mean, what happened? Was there more training in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we agreed that whenever we could manage it. And both of us realized without saying it that if we waited for two years, we probably would have grown in different ways and it most likely was not going to work. So it was just in the back of our minds. But I didn't really know what I was going to do about it because I was going down to a job that I expected to have for two years.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So you finally got out of the airport and down to Ecuador with the marriage proposal in mind, but also the now ready to start work as a volunteer. Take it from there. I mean, what happened? Was there more training in?

[User] No, thankfully. We were all very sick of the training. One thing I forgot to mention in the university training I just want to insert here.

[Assistant] Sure. Yeah.

[User] The head of the community development department of the University of Missouri came and was giving us a lecture on what community development is. And he said, if you get down there and you've called a meeting at the water fountain for 7:00, and if they don't show up by 7:15, you have to teach them the right way to do things. You, if they're not there by 7:15 or 7:20, you leave and tell them they have to be there because this is the way we do it. And I think most people, at any rate, I realized that this was not the way to get anything accomplished.

[Assistant] He must have worked for AID.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The head of the community development department of the University of Missouri came and was giving us a lecture on what community development is. And he said, if you get down there and you've called a meeting at the water fountain for 7:00, and if they don't show up by 7:15, you have to teach them the right way to do things. You, if they're not there by 7:15 or 7:20, you leave and tell them they have to be there because this is the way we do it. And I think most people, at any rate, I realized that this was not the way to get anything accomplished.

[Assistant] He must have worked for AID.

[User] I don't know. I don't know. I don't think he worked for anybody because I don't think anybody could accomplish something, other than maybe in America or England or Germany with that kind of attitude.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But that struck me as very strange. And of course, afterwards when I got to working with Acción, who actually knew something about community action and had a whole plan for how you do step A, then you go to step B. Then I realized how wrong that really was.

[Assistant] Yeah, but let's. You arrive in Ecuador with the group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I don't know. I don't think he worked for anybody because I don't think anybody could accomplish something, other than maybe in America or England or Germany with that kind of attitude.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But that struck me as very strange. And of course, afterwards when I got to working with Acción, who actually knew something about community action and had a whole plan for how you do step A, then you go to step B. Then I realized how wrong that really was.

[Assistant] Yeah, but let's. You arrive in Ecuador with the group.

[User] Right. So we had a day or two in Quito in a small pension with, oh, I think maybe we had several beds in a room there as well.

[Assistant] Yeah. You're now the rural group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that struck me as very strange. And of course, afterwards when I got to working with Acción, who actually knew something about community action and had a whole plan for how you do step A, then you go to step B. Then I realized how wrong that really was.

[Assistant] Yeah, but let's. You arrive in Ecuador with the group.

[User] Right. So we had a day or two in Quito in a small pension with, oh, I think maybe we had several beds in a room there as well.

[Assistant] Yeah. You're now the rural group?

[User] No, we're still, we're still the whole group together. We have come from either 56 or 65 down to 35. Been kicked out. Nobody, as far as I know, left on their own volition. They were all, all of those people were deselected.

[Assistant] Did you have a sense that many of them, many of these deselections were for language reasons? Or you didn't know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We lived in the furthest away province, just just barely, so were allowed. I think we flew back once before I left the Peace Corps. And then when my future husband came down to visit just before we got married, I had to go up. And I couldn't afford to fly on my own, so I took a bus. It was 23 hours by bus. It's now maybe six.

[Assistant] Yeah. And when you flew locally, that was Ecuadorian airlines?

[User] Right. And Cuenca, for instance, had an airport, probably still the same, that because it's surrounded by the very tall Andes and the planes have to get up over. Well, the plane had to circle and circle and circle and to get lower and lower before it could land.

[Assistant] I can picture. I don't know that I'd want to be on the plane.

[User] No, it was a little frightening at times. One has to just get over the feeling and say, these people must know what they're doing.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps gave you the rules and regulations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And Cuenca, for instance, had an airport, probably still the same, that because it's surrounded by the very tall Andes and the planes have to get up over. Well, the plane had to circle and circle and circle and to get lower and lower before it could land.

[Assistant] I can picture. I don't know that I'd want to be on the plane.

[User] No, it was a little frightening at times. One has to just get over the feeling and say, these people must know what they're doing.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps gave you the rules and regulations.

[User] Mm hmm. Excuse me a sec.

[Assistant] You were going to receive a living allowance, paid by the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was a little frightening at times. One has to just get over the feeling and say, these people must know what they're doing.

[Assistant] So Peace Corps gave you the rules and regulations.

[User] Mm hmm. Excuse me a sec.

[Assistant] You were going to receive a living allowance, paid by the Peace Corps?

[User] Right. We received one hundred dollars a month in those days.

[Assistant] And at that point did you meet an Ecuadorian counterpart or anyone from the Ecuadorian ministry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. Excuse me a sec.

[Assistant] You were going to receive a living allowance, paid by the Peace Corps?

[User] Right. We received one hundred dollars a month in those days.

[Assistant] And at that point did you meet an Ecuadorian counterpart or anyone from the Ecuadorian ministry?

[User] No. What they did was finally tell us where we were scheduled to go.

[Assistant] And on what basis did they do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. We received one hundred dollars a month in those days.

[Assistant] And at that point did you meet an Ecuadorian counterpart or anyone from the Ecuadorian ministry?

[User] No. What they did was finally tell us where we were scheduled to go.

[Assistant] And on what basis did they do that?

[User] You'd have to ask them. Well, I knew that I had insisted on rural for the whole time. And one of the questions on the peer rating forms was, who would you like to be stationed with? Name three people. And the person that I had named was my roommate in training. And she was scheduled to be with me as my roommate down there, even though she had been originally scheduled for an urban group. But she was an art, had been an art major, and knew a lot about weaving and the Indians that I was assigned to work with knew, did weaving. And so she was helpful in establishing weaving patterns for them, things like that.

[Assistant] And her name is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. What they did was finally tell us where we were scheduled to go.

[Assistant] And on what basis did they do that?

[User] You'd have to ask them. Well, I knew that I had insisted on rural for the whole time. And one of the questions on the peer rating forms was, who would you like to be stationed with? Name three people. And the person that I had named was my roommate in training. And she was scheduled to be with me as my roommate down there, even though she had been originally scheduled for an urban group. But she was an art, had been an art major, and knew a lot about weaving and the Indians that I was assigned to work with knew, did weaving. And so she was helpful in establishing weaving patterns for them, things like that.

[Assistant] And her name is?

[User] Janice Hensley.

[Assistant] OK. So you were sent then, I don't know much about Ecuador, to a primarily Indian area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You'd have to ask them. Well, I knew that I had insisted on rural for the whole time. And one of the questions on the peer rating forms was, who would you like to be stationed with? Name three people. And the person that I had named was my roommate in training. And she was scheduled to be with me as my roommate down there, even though she had been originally scheduled for an urban group. But she was an art, had been an art major, and knew a lot about weaving and the Indians that I was assigned to work with knew, did weaving. And so she was helpful in establishing weaving patterns for them, things like that.

[Assistant] And her name is?

[User] Janice Hensley.

[Assistant] OK. So you were sent then, I don't know much about Ecuador, to a primarily Indian area?

[User] I was. We were given in Quito then our assignments and the people we would be with, which we had not known up until that point. And then we were sent by bus. No, by plane. It must have been by plane in our case. At any rate, however we went there, we went to Cuenca, which is a major city, the third largest city, and it's in the south. And then we met the regional rep. He was in charge of the southern Ecuador area.

[Assistant] OK, that's Peace Corps rep?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was. We were given in Quito then our assignments and the people we would be with, which we had not known up until that point. And then we were sent by bus. No, by plane. It must have been by plane in our case. At any rate, however we went there, we went to Cuenca, which is a major city, the third largest city, and it's in the south. And then we met the regional rep. He was in charge of the southern Ecuador area.

[Assistant] OK, that's Peace Corps rep?

[User] Peace Corps rep. American. And I'm trying to remember his name, but it's slipped me. And then he talked to us, chatted with us for a while, invited us to his house, as I recall. Met his wife and kids. And then we. We were probably met there by the married couple that we were going to replace. We had a two-month overlap. And then they probably took us down to Saraguro.

[Assistant] Saraguro.

[User] Saraguro, which was south of Cuenca, close to the border with Peru. Fairly close. And as I recall, that's the way it happened. They had come up just to meet us. And then we all went down together and they lived in the house of, uh, they rented two rooms in somebody's house. Now this was a big adobe house, which had doors to an outdoor veranda. You didn't go between the rooms, you went out to the veranda and then to the next room. So they had arranged for us to occupy one room. They had another room and then they had a little room, which they used as a kitchen.

[Assistant] Ok. What was the physical environment of Saraguro?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, exactly. It's like going into Appalachia and finding somebody talking like an Elizabethan. And of course, it took me a while to realize this. I wasn't fluent in Spanish then, but interesting to see the.

[Assistant] Did it make it easier to, I mean, because sometimes the classical form of the language is a little bit slower and there's less slang in it.

[User] Well, yes, in that aspect. For example, in Guayaquil, it was very modern. Guayaquil, my theory is that all these port cities see a lot of change in the language because they have a lot of people from all over the world. And the language in Guayaquil, the Spanish language is terrible. It's got a lot of idioms. Not just idioms, but they drop the S's and they drop the E's, like Cuba and Venezuela, a lot of those. At any rate, it is. It was slower, more precise. The words were different. If we had learned the word for beet or cabbage it, it was different.

[Assistant] Ah. Yeah.

[User] But there are pockets, as I know now, there are pockets in South America of places where they keep really old words. And my theory is that it's mostly in the Andes that had very little progress going through hard to reach places. So things remained like they had been.

[Assistant] What's the elevation of Saraguro?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But there are pockets, as I know now, there are pockets in South America of places where they keep really old words. And my theory is that it's mostly in the Andes that had very little progress going through hard to reach places. So things remained like they had been.

[Assistant] What's the elevation of Saraguro?

[User] Close to ten thousand feet, I think.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] It was a little hard. The Belotes, Linda and Jim Belote, were the couple that Jan and I went in to replace. And they were used to going out and visiting the Indians and trying to keep up with the Indians. They said they had had a tough time at first, but all of them went at a mile a minute compared to us. We would trudge along, just panting at the elevation. And I had been a very active person. But it was very difficult for us to keep up at first, but I knew we would get better.

[Assistant] Yeah, ten thousand feet is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Close to ten thousand feet, I think.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] It was a little hard. The Belotes, Linda and Jim Belote, were the couple that Jan and I went in to replace. And they were used to going out and visiting the Indians and trying to keep up with the Indians. They said they had had a tough time at first, but all of them went at a mile a minute compared to us. We would trudge along, just panting at the elevation. And I had been a very active person. But it was very difficult for us to keep up at first, but I knew we would get better.

[Assistant] Yeah, ten thousand feet is.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] The population was most largely Indian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] The population was most largely Indian?

[User] Right. The Indian, well, let me break this out. The whites there, quote unquote, were largely Indian blood, but culturally speaking, they were no longer part of any Indian group. As a matter of fact, there seemed to be many Indian groups in Ecuador that weren't part of a tribe or a particular Indian group, but they were definitely poor Indians. But the people who lived in town were whites in Saraguro. I'm talking just about my site. The Indians themselves, and excuse me for using the word Indian, it's more easily understood. It would be very offensive there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But they would live outside of town in loosely defined villages with either Quechua or Spanish names. The Indians were, everybody about 30 years old or so was bilingual. The children were bilingual, Spanish and Quechua, that is. And the older people maybe only spoke Quechua. Kichwa is what they call it in Ecuador. They call it Kichwa. And it had, at the time it had at least seven dialects within Ecuador, which is a small country, let alone Peru and Bolivia have all their own dialects. I tried once saying something in Ecuadorian Kichwa to someone in Cusco, which is very far away in Peru, and they looked at me as if I had said something really strange and said, I'm sorry, we don't speak English here.

[Assistant] Yeah. You told as you move out from Saraguro, there are the Indian villages, the Quechuan villages. Are those sort of traditional groupings? In other words, there would be some kind of traditional interrelationships among the people there? In some settings we call a tribal almost, but tribal may be the wrong word.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. The Indian, well, let me break this out. The whites there, quote unquote, were largely Indian blood, but culturally speaking, they were no longer part of any Indian group. As a matter of fact, there seemed to be many Indian groups in Ecuador that weren't part of a tribe or a particular Indian group, but they were definitely poor Indians. But the people who lived in town were whites in Saraguro. I'm talking just about my site. The Indians themselves, and excuse me for using the word Indian, it's more easily understood. It would be very offensive there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But they would live outside of town in loosely defined villages with either Quechua or Spanish names. The Indians were, everybody about 30 years old or so was bilingual. The children were bilingual, Spanish and Quechua, that is. And the older people maybe only spoke Quechua. Kichwa is what they call it in Ecuador. They call it Kichwa. And it had, at the time it had at least seven dialects within Ecuador, which is a small country, let alone Peru and Bolivia have all their own dialects. I tried once saying something in Ecuadorian Kichwa to someone in Cusco, which is very far away in Peru, and they looked at me as if I had said something really strange and said, I'm sorry, we don't speak English here.

[Assistant] Yeah. You told as you move out from Saraguro, there are the Indian villages, the Quechuan villages. Are those sort of traditional groupings? In other words, there would be some kind of traditional interrelationships among the people there? In some settings we call a tribal almost, but tribal may be the wrong word.

[User] Well, a clan or. There would be a feeling that this is a village. But as far as physically, there was no way to say this was a village because there was no central post office. There was no store. There was just a bunch of farmers who lived in a house and owned a certain amount of land.

[Assistant] But there was an extended traditional relationship among those people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But they would live outside of town in loosely defined villages with either Quechua or Spanish names. The Indians were, everybody about 30 years old or so was bilingual. The children were bilingual, Spanish and Quechua, that is. And the older people maybe only spoke Quechua. Kichwa is what they call it in Ecuador. They call it Kichwa. And it had, at the time it had at least seven dialects within Ecuador, which is a small country, let alone Peru and Bolivia have all their own dialects. I tried once saying something in Ecuadorian Kichwa to someone in Cusco, which is very far away in Peru, and they looked at me as if I had said something really strange and said, I'm sorry, we don't speak English here.

[Assistant] Yeah. You told as you move out from Saraguro, there are the Indian villages, the Quechuan villages. Are those sort of traditional groupings? In other words, there would be some kind of traditional interrelationships among the people there? In some settings we call a tribal almost, but tribal may be the wrong word.

[User] Well, a clan or. There would be a feeling that this is a village. But as far as physically, there was no way to say this was a village because there was no central post office. There was no store. There was just a bunch of farmers who lived in a house and owned a certain amount of land.

[Assistant] But there was an extended traditional relationship among those people?

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Which is different than those who lived in town?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] Which is different than those who lived in town?

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And you could. There were people who lived in Canicapa who were related to people in Kishkinchear, but they, and they were all, they all knew and they all wore the same clothes. They all knew that they were traditional Saraguro Indians. But they understood where their communities were. It's very hard to see any, I mean, see a differentiation in where one began and the next one started.

[Assistant] Now the couple who you were replacing had been there for about a year and a half, two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And you could. There were people who lived in Canicapa who were related to people in Kishkinchear, but they, and they were all, they all knew and they all wore the same clothes. They all knew that they were traditional Saraguro Indians. But they understood where their communities were. It's very hard to see any, I mean, see a differentiation in where one began and the next one started.

[Assistant] Now the couple who you were replacing had been there for about a year and a half, two years?

[User] Probably two years. Jim had been there first, I believe, and then Linda came and then they got married, which was against Peace Corps rules. But at some point they got married. And they'd been there probably two years by then.

[Assistant] And were they the only Peace Corps volunteers in Saraguro?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you could. There were people who lived in Canicapa who were related to people in Kishkinchear, but they, and they were all, they all knew and they all wore the same clothes. They all knew that they were traditional Saraguro Indians. But they understood where their communities were. It's very hard to see any, I mean, see a differentiation in where one began and the next one started.

[Assistant] Now the couple who you were replacing had been there for about a year and a half, two years?

[User] Probably two years. Jim had been there first, I believe, and then Linda came and then they got married, which was against Peace Corps rules. But at some point they got married. And they'd been there probably two years by then.

[Assistant] And were they the only Peace Corps volunteers in Saraguro?

[User] They were when I was there. There had been one before or at the same time as Jim. I don't remember anything because, I don't know about them because I'd never met them. But we were, Jan and I were the fourth and fifth volunteers in that site. And I think they stopped having volunteers after a while, and then they began to get electricity and more. I heard recently that it was a party site. And my roommate and I had a very difficult time figuring out how you could have a party with warm beer and with no electricity. Certainly not a party site when we were there.

[Assistant] So moving into the situation, did you look completely to the couple to define what your role is supposed to be?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were when I was there. There had been one before or at the same time as Jim. I don't remember anything because, I don't know about them because I'd never met them. But we were, Jan and I were the fourth and fifth volunteers in that site. And I think they stopped having volunteers after a while, and then they began to get electricity and more. I heard recently that it was a party site. And my roommate and I had a very difficult time figuring out how you could have a party with warm beer and with no electricity. Certainly not a party site when we were there.

[Assistant] So moving into the situation, did you look completely to the couple to define what your role is supposed to be?

[User] Pretty much, yeah. And they, on the other hand, were a little reluctant to impose roles on us. And they were, uh, they wanted us to find our own way and sometimes wouldn't tell us things that we needed to know, or we felt we needed to know, because they wanted us to make our own way. For instance, when I said the language hadn't changed in four hundred years, also, the church hadn't changed a whole lot in four hundred years. We were dealing with the Catholic Church at the time of the Inquisition. I'm not, don't laugh.

[Assistant] I'm sorry.

[User] Because a woman up in Cuenca, north of us, had been stoned because the priest told the local people to go stone her because she was a witch. And they had. And when we were in Saraguro, there was a Protestant missionary doctor, American, with missionary nurses living a few doors from us. Everything was a few doors from us. And there was a big argument between whether he could convert people in a town that was all Catholic. And the priest hated him, of course, for trying to take away his flock because the priest was the demigod of the village.

[Assistant] And he was an American missionary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty much, yeah. And they, on the other hand, were a little reluctant to impose roles on us. And they were, uh, they wanted us to find our own way and sometimes wouldn't tell us things that we needed to know, or we felt we needed to know, because they wanted us to make our own way. For instance, when I said the language hadn't changed in four hundred years, also, the church hadn't changed a whole lot in four hundred years. We were dealing with the Catholic Church at the time of the Inquisition. I'm not, don't laugh.

[Assistant] I'm sorry.

[User] Because a woman up in Cuenca, north of us, had been stoned because the priest told the local people to go stone her because she was a witch. And they had. And when we were in Saraguro, there was a Protestant missionary doctor, American, with missionary nurses living a few doors from us. Everything was a few doors from us. And there was a big argument between whether he could convert people in a town that was all Catholic. And the priest hated him, of course, for trying to take away his flock because the priest was the demigod of the village.

[Assistant] And he was an American missionary?

[User] American missionary, doctor. And he was a very good guy. Dr. Daos was his name. And he was a very kind person, the way you would want a missionary to be or a doctor to be or a human being to be. The priest, on the other hand, was none of those things. And it was always, I was always a little nervous about being in a place where I could, somebody could tell the Indians to go stone me and they might do it. I mean, that was kind of frightening.

[Assistant] Now you, go ahead. Sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because a woman up in Cuenca, north of us, had been stoned because the priest told the local people to go stone her because she was a witch. And they had. And when we were in Saraguro, there was a Protestant missionary doctor, American, with missionary nurses living a few doors from us. Everything was a few doors from us. And there was a big argument between whether he could convert people in a town that was all Catholic. And the priest hated him, of course, for trying to take away his flock because the priest was the demigod of the village.

[Assistant] And he was an American missionary?

[User] American missionary, doctor. And he was a very good guy. Dr. Daos was his name. And he was a very kind person, the way you would want a missionary to be or a doctor to be or a human being to be. The priest, on the other hand, was none of those things. And it was always, I was always a little nervous about being in a place where I could, somebody could tell the Indians to go stone me and they might do it. I mean, that was kind of frightening.

[Assistant] Now you, go ahead. Sorry.

[User] My roommate said, I'm not religious, I'm not faking it. I'm not going to church. I said, well, I discussed this with the Belotes. I said, how about if I tell him that I'm an Episcopalian? I had actually mentally left the church before that, but I was willing to say that. But I am on the verge of considering becoming a Catholic, so that should make me a little safer or make us a little safer. And they said, that'll probably do. And so we went. The Belotes took us to meet the important people in town, and they took us to meet the priest. And they told me that he's going to ask me some questions probably. So he started asking questions, and I was able to tell him what the Trinity was and I was, you know.

[Assistant] Oh, a theological question?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And I mean, he asked what we felt and what we believed, and he wanted to know whether we were going to be on the doctor's side or his too. And Jan's language, it was not good at all. So, you know, I was answering the questions. So then he asked me the all- important question, which I didn't realize at the time and I hadn't been prepared for it. Well, who's more important, Mary or Jesus? So I realized I was treading on thin ice here, and I said, well. I thought, well, let's define our terms. OK, well, Mary was the mother of Jesus. And the priest said, yes, so she's the most important. And so I said, OK. And so I guess I passed the interview.

[Assistant] That's fascinating.

[User] But I felt that it was necessary for me to go to church, for one of us, and Jan wouldn't do it, to go to church every Sunday, even though I didn't believe any of the religion. And fake it and sit there and listen to what he said because I wanted advance notice if he was going to turn everybody on to us and say, go out there and stone those people. I was going to sit and hear it first.

[Assistant] There must have been all kinds of inhibitions on the way you dress then.

[User] Well, um, we were told that it was unlikely they would accept women in pants. They would think we were trying to be men. So we compromised and wore culottes. And sort of a pant skirt. And we brought several pair and that's what we wore nearly all the time.

[Assistant] You were properly covered, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I felt that it was necessary for me to go to church, for one of us, and Jan wouldn't do it, to go to church every Sunday, even though I didn't believe any of the religion. And fake it and sit there and listen to what he said because I wanted advance notice if he was going to turn everybody on to us and say, go out there and stone those people. I was going to sit and hear it first.

[Assistant] There must have been all kinds of inhibitions on the way you dress then.

[User] Well, um, we were told that it was unlikely they would accept women in pants. They would think we were trying to be men. So we compromised and wore culottes. And sort of a pant skirt. And we brought several pair and that's what we wore nearly all the time.

[Assistant] You were properly covered, I mean.

[User] Oh, of course. Well, it was cold. You wouldn't be sleeveless anyway.

[Assistant] You wouldn't be walking around in a T-shirt.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, of course. Well, it was cold. You wouldn't be sleeveless anyway.

[Assistant] You wouldn't be walking around in a T-shirt.

[User] No. No, we didn't ever wear T-shirts. I wore a regular dress shirt like you have on shirts, medium length sleeve. And Jan wore something similar. And the climate there, you could wear wool year-round. When it rained, it was very cold at ten thousand feet, even though it's right near the equator. And it got cold inside. It was just wet and cold. You know how a damp cold is?

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] And when it was not raining, it was dry. It was sunny. It was lovely. It was just delightful.

[Assistant] After you've been there a couple of weeks, the married couple was still there. Did you begin to get a sense that there was a job there for you or there was a role for you to play?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No, we didn't ever wear T-shirts. I wore a regular dress shirt like you have on shirts, medium length sleeve. And Jan wore something similar. And the climate there, you could wear wool year-round. When it rained, it was very cold at ten thousand feet, even though it's right near the equator. And it got cold inside. It was just wet and cold. You know how a damp cold is?

[Assistant] Oh yeah.

[User] And when it was not raining, it was dry. It was sunny. It was lovely. It was just delightful.

[Assistant] After you've been there a couple of weeks, the married couple was still there. Did you begin to get a sense that there was a job there for you or there was a role for you to play?

[User] Well, we were trying to work on what role we were going to play.

[Assistant] How were you doing that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And when it was not raining, it was dry. It was sunny. It was lovely. It was just delightful.

[Assistant] After you've been there a couple of weeks, the married couple was still there. Did you begin to get a sense that there was a job there for you or there was a role for you to play?

[User] Well, we were trying to work on what role we were going to play.

[Assistant] How were you doing that?

[User] How was I doing that?

[Assistant] Trying to figure out the role?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were trying to work on what role we were going to play.

[Assistant] How were you doing that?

[User] How was I doing that?

[Assistant] Trying to figure out the role?

[User] Well, listening to what Linda and Jim said. Linda was talking to the women in the communities, and she had started embroidery classes for the girls and cooking classes for the women. Now I'm talking in the indigenous communities, not in the center of town. And they worked with the Andean Mission, which was another. The Alliance for Progress was also started by Kennedy, which put some money into South America, and the Andean Mission was the Ecuador, Ecuadorian branch of that. So hired by the Ecuadorian government with this money was Colon, who was the head of the Andean Mission in Saraguro. He had a secretary. There was a home economist who was supposed to be dealing with the Indian women and helping them. She hated Indians. She wanted this for the prestige. But the only time she would get anywhere physically close to an Indian as if she was having her picture taken. There was a doctor and there was a dentist and there was the chauffeur. And so we were assigned to work with them.

[Assistant] They were all Ecuadorian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then there were very few foods that grew locally. And the ones that grew locally we would help try to figure out different ways to use them in cooking. I don't know if these people, I mean, once in a rural community, people know how they like things. They've done it for millennia that way. They probably aren't all that thrilled about having somebody come in and tell them how to make a different kind of omelet. But they wanted to get to know us. They thought we were all, not just me, everyone, that we were all interesting. As far as where we came from, they saw we had white faces and they knew we were from further away than Riobamba. They asked where the, what was the United States? And they said, oh, that's even further away than Riobamba, isn't it? Which isn't as far as Quito.

[Assistant] Was there any sense of the Peace Corps? If you said, I'm a Peace Corps volunteer, I mean, in Spanish, would?

[User] In the community?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No, they knew. We were Peace Corps volunteers. That's all they knew, is the four faces. Those were.

[Assistant] But it didn't have any meaning beyond that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the community?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No, they knew. We were Peace Corps volunteers. That's all they knew, is the four faces. Those were.

[Assistant] But it didn't have any meaning beyond that?

[User] But it meant nothing. No, no. Um, they knew we weren't, we didn't speak Spanish very well, but then a lot of them didn't speak Spanish very well.

[Assistant] Now did you begin to learn Quechua?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they knew. We were Peace Corps volunteers. That's all they knew, is the four faces. Those were.

[Assistant] But it didn't have any meaning beyond that?

[User] But it meant nothing. No, no. Um, they knew we weren't, we didn't speak Spanish very well, but then a lot of them didn't speak Spanish very well.

[Assistant] Now did you begin to learn Quechua?

[User] I was trying to pick some up. I had learned to say good morning or how are you? And I learned to say, when you go up to somebody's house in the countryside, because they might not be sitting in front of their house, you yell out. Can I come in? Hello! Can I come in? You don't just walk up because nobody could be there and you could just walk up and walk into their house. It's very impolite. So I learned how to say that in Quechua and hear the answer to it. One or two things, but not too many.

[Assistant] Were people pleased?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't remember having any. We could have gone to Dr. Daos, who was the missionary doctor. But we were told by the Belotes that if we stay away from him, we'd be better off, because we wanted to be non-political. We were, as a Peace Corps volunteers, not supposed to align ourselves with political parties or religious groups. And there was a conflict going on with the Protestant missionary and the Catholic priest. And it would be better if we tried not to. But of course, if we had a really serious problem, we could go there.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you have a Peace Corps medical kit where you could?

[User] I'm sure we must have.

[Assistant] Obviously, your health generally was, other than fleas.

[User] I had good health. Jan had a series of problems which they. She had ear infections and I think she had some gastric problems, too, at some point. And they did fly her, actually the week of my wedding, they flew her to Panama for these ear infections. But we, I don't know what we were supposed to do if we were sick all the time. I don't remember. I mean, I'm sure they told us, it's just that I was generally fairly healthy, so it didn't.

[Assistant] A related matter. How did you get food? I mean, each day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm sure we must have.

[Assistant] Obviously, your health generally was, other than fleas.

[User] I had good health. Jan had a series of problems which they. She had ear infections and I think she had some gastric problems, too, at some point. And they did fly her, actually the week of my wedding, they flew her to Panama for these ear infections. But we, I don't know what we were supposed to do if we were sick all the time. I don't remember. I mean, I'm sure they told us, it's just that I was generally fairly healthy, so it didn't.

[Assistant] A related matter. How did you get food? I mean, each day?

[User] Well, we bought food in the local market. And then when we went into Loja, which wasn't very often at first, but later became once every two weeks, we could bring back hamburgers and hot dogs or what amounted to that. Now, we had no refrigeration, so we learned that hamburgers will keep two days and, I mean, ground beef, and hot dogs would keep three days. And Linda had made, or Linda and Jim had made an oven out of a kerosene can that you put on top of your Coleman stove. We had a little Coleman stove. And you could buy the gas for the stove in town. And they put the oven up on top of it and would make sometimes things like cakes, but most often pizza. And as I say, there weren't very many things in town. What we did was bring back the hamburger and hot dog for a couple of days, and then we bought peanut butter in Loja and brought it back and canned tuna fish, which would keep forever, and oatmeal. And I figured that we got all of our protein that we got from those three things.

[Assistant] Could you get eggs and bread locally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had good health. Jan had a series of problems which they. She had ear infections and I think she had some gastric problems, too, at some point. And they did fly her, actually the week of my wedding, they flew her to Panama for these ear infections. But we, I don't know what we were supposed to do if we were sick all the time. I don't remember. I mean, I'm sure they told us, it's just that I was generally fairly healthy, so it didn't.

[Assistant] A related matter. How did you get food? I mean, each day?

[User] Well, we bought food in the local market. And then when we went into Loja, which wasn't very often at first, but later became once every two weeks, we could bring back hamburgers and hot dogs or what amounted to that. Now, we had no refrigeration, so we learned that hamburgers will keep two days and, I mean, ground beef, and hot dogs would keep three days. And Linda had made, or Linda and Jim had made an oven out of a kerosene can that you put on top of your Coleman stove. We had a little Coleman stove. And you could buy the gas for the stove in town. And they put the oven up on top of it and would make sometimes things like cakes, but most often pizza. And as I say, there weren't very many things in town. What we did was bring back the hamburger and hot dog for a couple of days, and then we bought peanut butter in Loja and brought it back and canned tuna fish, which would keep forever, and oatmeal. And I figured that we got all of our protein that we got from those three things.

[Assistant] Could you get eggs and bread locally?

[User] You could get eggs. Yeah, you could get bread. We didn't really like the bread. It was, uh, a lot of people do now, but it was like pita bread. And not loaf bread.

[Assistant] Did you have any kind of personal servant or helper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You could get eggs. Yeah, you could get bread. We didn't really like the bread. It was, uh, a lot of people do now, but it was like pita bread. And not loaf bread.

[Assistant] Did you have any kind of personal servant or helper?

[User] No. Actually, we did in a sense. We sent our laundry out.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] There were local people who would go down to the river and beat the clothes on a rock, and it was so inexpensive. We never spent our hundred dollars a month. We couldn't. We couldn't spend it. There wasn't enough to buy to spend it on. And whereas people in Guayaquil couldn't live on a hundred dollars a month. They were very hard put to do it.

[Assistant] Did, I mean, obviously you weren't working seven days a week, but did you begin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Actually, we did in a sense. We sent our laundry out.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] There were local people who would go down to the river and beat the clothes on a rock, and it was so inexpensive. We never spent our hundred dollars a month. We couldn't. We couldn't spend it. There wasn't enough to buy to spend it on. And whereas people in Guayaquil couldn't live on a hundred dollars a month. They were very hard put to do it.

[Assistant] Did, I mean, obviously you weren't working seven days a week, but did you begin?

[User] Well, we were.

[Assistant] Oh, you were? OK. Any socializing, recreation, did you begin to get to know Ecuadorians on an unofficial basis, you know, just as friends?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were local people who would go down to the river and beat the clothes on a rock, and it was so inexpensive. We never spent our hundred dollars a month. We couldn't. We couldn't spend it. There wasn't enough to buy to spend it on. And whereas people in Guayaquil couldn't live on a hundred dollars a month. They were very hard put to do it.

[Assistant] Did, I mean, obviously you weren't working seven days a week, but did you begin?

[User] Well, we were.

[Assistant] Oh, you were? OK. Any socializing, recreation, did you begin to get to know Ecuadorians on an unofficial basis, you know, just as friends?

[User] We did that. Let me finish my last project.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Unrelated to your work?

[User] Some of the whites in town might have been typical Ecuadorians who would say things. They call it in the Spanish language piropo. It's a compliment, but basically it's what a guy would say who's leaning against the building, watching a girl walk by and they make comments about her. And in the culture, it's very hard for us to understand because we don't like that. I mean, women don't like that. But in the culture, a lot of women do like that. They look forward to guys saying nice things about them and the guys think that, I mean, it's perfectly OK. Most of us, as young Peace Corps volunteers, saw it as semi-threatening. Now I don't remember a lot of this going on in town, but there may have been one or two guys who might say something, but I really doubt it. It would go on in the big cities where we didn't know people.

[Assistant] But yourself, you don't recall being uncomfortable.

[User] Not in our site. No. Not in our site. And I also started a cooking class. I didn't realize what the people wanted was this fancy cake, like wedding cake making. But they said repostería, and I thought that meant just cooking. So I started a cooking class showing them, for the whites in town, which had never been done, because nobody really wanted. The people before me wanted to work with the Indians, and so did Jan. And but these people were also Ecuadorians, and they were also really curious about these new foreigners in town and wanted to get to meet us. So I started an English class and a cooking class. The cooking class was just for girls, but the best person in the English class was a young Indian boy and he was already bilingual. So learning a third language was a little easier for him than learning a second one for the young Spanish speaking people.

[Assistant] On any given day during this period, how would you decide what you're going to do with your time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in our site. No. Not in our site. And I also started a cooking class. I didn't realize what the people wanted was this fancy cake, like wedding cake making. But they said repostería, and I thought that meant just cooking. So I started a cooking class showing them, for the whites in town, which had never been done, because nobody really wanted. The people before me wanted to work with the Indians, and so did Jan. And but these people were also Ecuadorians, and they were also really curious about these new foreigners in town and wanted to get to meet us. So I started an English class and a cooking class. The cooking class was just for girls, but the best person in the English class was a young Indian boy and he was already bilingual. So learning a third language was a little easier for him than learning a second one for the young Spanish speaking people.

[Assistant] On any given day during this period, how would you decide what you're going to do with your time?

[User] Well, the Indian mission had a routine that they would go to Lagunas on Monday and Kishkincheer on Tuesday and Canicapi on Wednesday. And we would go with a home economist and we worked at that five days a week. But then the rest of the time we were, we were on our own. I would say as far as a community development person goes, it was working. I mean, you're out. You're not holed up doing nothing. You're out with the people all the time. Um, and that's the other times when we would arrange the other the lessons, the cooking classes and things like that.

[Assistant] Was it tiring? I mean, it sounds like it sounds to me like you're on seven days a week.

[User] Emotionally it was tiring. At first, when you're in new situation, you don't have any of your support systems.

[Assistant] And the altitude doesn't help you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Emotionally it was tiring. At first, when you're in new situation, you don't have any of your support systems.

[Assistant] And the altitude doesn't help you.

[User]
No, I don't remember that as being so much of a problem if I wasn't hiking. But I'm sure there were aspects of it. The fleas were the worst thing. I would get. I would count them. And when I got up to 150, I'd stop because it was too depressing. And they were, the kind with me, the kind of flea bites I had to scratch until they were open, and even then I kept scratching them. I probably have scars on my ankles from that. When we went into Loja, they had public showers where for the equivalent of twelve American cents, you could take a hot shower for as long as you wanted. And that's where I'd count my flea bites and get rid of them I hope, the fleas. And that was just pure bliss, because back in Saraguro, there was a cold shower outside at ten thousand feet where it's cold. The only time either Jan or I used that was after a hike and I came in and I was really hot and I thought, I'll hop into that while I'm still really hot. And I did it once and I would never do it again.

So what we did was we bought the largest basin that you can buy for washing clothes in. It was about this big around, about three feet across. And we would take turns taking a bath. One of us would sit in it cross legged like a Hindu priest or something, and the other would pour warm water heated on the Coleman stove over the top of the bathing person. Needless to say, this is not a daily ritual. Took quite a lot of time and gas just to heat up the water.

[Assistant] Was it a wrench when the married couple finally left?

[User] No. I think we were ready for them to go and be on our own.

[Assistant] That was two months they were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I think we were ready for them to go and be on our own.

[Assistant] That was two months they were?

[User] Yeah, and we thought we would miss them. We knew we would miss them and we did. And not to have somebody around who is completely fluent in the local languages and who understood what was going on a better level than we did. I mean, we didn't, we didn't understand.

[Assistant] Did anyone from Peace Corps come out to visit during this transition time?

[User] Yes, the director came down one time. Not the director of the country, but the local, the regional rep, he came down one time. And we had had, I don't know how the Peace Corps grapevine works, but it's faster than lightning, and we had advance notice that he was coming. So I don't know what we did, made a pizza or something. He said, that's OK, I'll take you out to lunch, but there's no place to go out to lunch. And I don't think he stayed overnight. He had a jeep, so he could have gone home. His home was five hours away, so he didn't come very often.

[Assistant] Well, might that have been a problem if you had a male staying overnight with you? Would that be noted?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and we thought we would miss them. We knew we would miss them and we did. And not to have somebody around who is completely fluent in the local languages and who understood what was going on a better level than we did. I mean, we didn't, we didn't understand.

[Assistant] Did anyone from Peace Corps come out to visit during this transition time?

[User] Yes, the director came down one time. Not the director of the country, but the local, the regional rep, he came down one time. And we had had, I don't know how the Peace Corps grapevine works, but it's faster than lightning, and we had advance notice that he was coming. So I don't know what we did, made a pizza or something. He said, that's OK, I'll take you out to lunch, but there's no place to go out to lunch. And I don't think he stayed overnight. He had a jeep, so he could have gone home. His home was five hours away, so he didn't come very often.

[Assistant] Well, might that have been a problem if you had a male staying overnight with you? Would that be noted?

[User] By whom?

[Assistant] Anyone in the village? Anyone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the director came down one time. Not the director of the country, but the local, the regional rep, he came down one time. And we had had, I don't know how the Peace Corps grapevine works, but it's faster than lightning, and we had advance notice that he was coming. So I don't know what we did, made a pizza or something. He said, that's OK, I'll take you out to lunch, but there's no place to go out to lunch. And I don't think he stayed overnight. He had a jeep, so he could have gone home. His home was five hours away, so he didn't come very often.

[Assistant] Well, might that have been a problem if you had a male staying overnight with you? Would that be noted?

[User] By whom?

[Assistant] Anyone in the village? Anyone?

[User] Oh, oh, um.

[Assistant] The Inquisition crowd?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By whom?

[Assistant] Anyone in the village? Anyone?

[User] Oh, oh, um.

[Assistant] The Inquisition crowd?

[User] I don't know. I don't know what they would have said. I mean, it was probably like in Elizabethan times in England. You didn't talk about it, but it got done. I mean, we didn't have any males come and sleep overnight in either innocently or not innocently. But I'm sure that among the whites that went, that sort of thing happened. People got pregnant who weren't supposed to. But I don't know how it would have been viewed, but we wouldn't. We wouldn't have had him in the same room. Well, we rented a room from this family, and if somebody had stayed over, they would have stayed in the other room.

[Assistant] In the meantime, what's happening with your engagement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, oh, um.

[Assistant] The Inquisition crowd?

[User] I don't know. I don't know what they would have said. I mean, it was probably like in Elizabethan times in England. You didn't talk about it, but it got done. I mean, we didn't have any males come and sleep overnight in either innocently or not innocently. But I'm sure that among the whites that went, that sort of thing happened. People got pregnant who weren't supposed to. But I don't know how it would have been viewed, but we wouldn't. We wouldn't have had him in the same room. Well, we rented a room from this family, and if somebody had stayed over, they would have stayed in the other room.

[Assistant] In the meantime, what's happening with your engagement?

[User] In the meantime, I was getting a letter a day and writing at least a letter a day.

[Assistant] Have you kept those letters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They all knew Mike, right.

[Assistant] Because he'd been in the training.

[User] And they were all surprised that I was still in touch with him and that we were getting married and that we were an item at all.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So how long was the visit all together?

[User] A couple of weeks, I guess. Or maybe one week? I can't remember.

[Assistant] You had to leave time coming or vacation time coming?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they were all surprised that I was still in touch with him and that we were getting married and that we were an item at all.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So how long was the visit all together?

[User] A couple of weeks, I guess. Or maybe one week? I can't remember.

[Assistant] You had to leave time coming or vacation time coming?

[User] Yeah. And we had thought maybe to go down to Peru because I'd always wanted to go to Peru, but we didn't have enough money or time to do all of that. So we thought, well, he told me to apply to Acción. Acción didn't want to be in the position of having recruited someone who was an active Peace Corps volunteer. So he said I had to apply and tell them why I wanted to work with them and get accepted. So I did all of that.

[Assistant] Acción being in Washington?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple of weeks, I guess. Or maybe one week? I can't remember.

[Assistant] You had to leave time coming or vacation time coming?

[User] Yeah. And we had thought maybe to go down to Peru because I'd always wanted to go to Peru, but we didn't have enough money or time to do all of that. So we thought, well, he told me to apply to Acción. Acción didn't want to be in the position of having recruited someone who was an active Peace Corps volunteer. So he said I had to apply and tell them why I wanted to work with them and get accepted. So I did all of that.

[Assistant] Acción being in Washington?

[User] No, Acción in Venezuela.

[Assistant] OK, so you were flying directly to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And we had thought maybe to go down to Peru because I'd always wanted to go to Peru, but we didn't have enough money or time to do all of that. So we thought, well, he told me to apply to Acción. Acción didn't want to be in the position of having recruited someone who was an active Peace Corps volunteer. So he said I had to apply and tell them why I wanted to work with them and get accepted. So I did all of that.

[Assistant] Acción being in Washington?

[User] No, Acción in Venezuela.

[Assistant] OK, so you were flying directly to?

[User] To Acción in Venezuela in Caracas, right.

[Assistant] OK. And with information provided by Mike.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, Acción in Venezuela.

[Assistant] OK, so you were flying directly to?

[User] To Acción in Venezuela in Caracas, right.

[Assistant] OK. And with information provided by Mike.

[User] Right. And so then he left and we had plans to get married if I got, assuming I got accepted, I mean, we didn't see any reason why they wouldn't accept me. I was a little nervous about that. What happens if they don't, you know?

[Assistant] At this point, how long had you been in Ecuador?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Acción in Venezuela in Caracas, right.

[Assistant] OK. And with information provided by Mike.

[User] Right. And so then he left and we had plans to get married if I got, assuming I got accepted, I mean, we didn't see any reason why they wouldn't accept me. I was a little nervous about that. What happens if they don't, you know?

[Assistant] At this point, how long had you been in Ecuador?

[User] Two months.

[Assistant] That's all? OK.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And so then he left and we had plans to get married if I got, assuming I got accepted, I mean, we didn't see any reason why they wouldn't accept me. I was a little nervous about that. What happens if they don't, you know?

[Assistant] At this point, how long had you been in Ecuador?

[User] Two months.

[Assistant] That's all? OK.

[User] Yeah. Two or three months. And, um.

[Assistant] Applied to Acción.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two months.

[Assistant] That's all? OK.

[User] Yeah. Two or three months. And, um.

[Assistant] Applied to Acción.

[User] Right. I'm trying to think, where do we go from here?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, what happened? I mean, you applied.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Two or three months. And, um.

[Assistant] Applied to Acción.

[User] Right. I'm trying to think, where do we go from here?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, what happened? I mean, you applied.

[User] I applied. They accepted me and we made plans to get married. Uh, we sent out invitations, but we only sent them to Peace Corps volunteers and not in our parents' name, which was unheard of in those days.

[Assistant] But at that point, what did you, what was your relationship to Peace Corps and what did you say and what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was going to stay. Oh well, I thought I was going to stay. I think now I was going to stay. I'm not sure whether I was going to.

[Assistant] But it seems to me that it ended up that you were really getting ready to marry.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I think maybe we had decided. I think maybe Mike had said that if I didn't get hired by Acción that I could go there, I mean, get married, go there and then find a job doing teaching English or something. I wasn't at all sure about that because I hadn't traveled in Latin America. I didn't know there were jobs everywhere teaching English. But he did.

[Assistant] Where did you get married?

[User] Guayaquil. Big port city that's the largest city in Ecuador.

[Assistant] So it was in Ecuador. Did family come?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I think maybe we had decided. I think maybe Mike had said that if I didn't get hired by Acción that I could go there, I mean, get married, go there and then find a job doing teaching English or something. I wasn't at all sure about that because I hadn't traveled in Latin America. I didn't know there were jobs everywhere teaching English. But he did.

[Assistant] Where did you get married?

[User] Guayaquil. Big port city that's the largest city in Ecuador.

[Assistant] So it was in Ecuador. Did family come?

[User] No, the only people who came were Peace Corps volunteers. Some Peace Corps staff. And my, the lady that I rented the room from in Saraguro came down. She had relatives to stay with. And it turns out that one of the guys in our group, one of Mike's roommates when he was in training, worked for an Episcopal missionary priest. And so we decided that would be the best way. I would rather have gotten married in Saraguro, but it wouldn't be by the Catholic priest that everybody hated, and it shouldn't probably be by the missionary. I think he was out of town anyway, the missionary. I might have considered that. But the only way anybody would come to our very remote site, you know, the only way people would come to our wedding would be if I went to a major city. And more people worked in Guayaquil. Quito is much nicer, but we went. I stayed with two of the girls from my group who were roommates in Guayaquil. We had the reception in their apartment.

[Assistant] So at that point when you came up to Guayaquil to get married, you left Saraguro.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Guayaquil. Big port city that's the largest city in Ecuador.

[Assistant] So it was in Ecuador. Did family come?

[User] No, the only people who came were Peace Corps volunteers. Some Peace Corps staff. And my, the lady that I rented the room from in Saraguro came down. She had relatives to stay with. And it turns out that one of the guys in our group, one of Mike's roommates when he was in training, worked for an Episcopal missionary priest. And so we decided that would be the best way. I would rather have gotten married in Saraguro, but it wouldn't be by the Catholic priest that everybody hated, and it shouldn't probably be by the missionary. I think he was out of town anyway, the missionary. I might have considered that. But the only way anybody would come to our very remote site, you know, the only way people would come to our wedding would be if I went to a major city. And more people worked in Guayaquil. Quito is much nicer, but we went. I stayed with two of the girls from my group who were roommates in Guayaquil. We had the reception in their apartment.

[Assistant] So at that point when you came up to Guayaquil to get married, you left Saraguro.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I mean, they knew your assignment was over and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the only people who came were Peace Corps volunteers. Some Peace Corps staff. And my, the lady that I rented the room from in Saraguro came down. She had relatives to stay with. And it turns out that one of the guys in our group, one of Mike's roommates when he was in training, worked for an Episcopal missionary priest. And so we decided that would be the best way. I would rather have gotten married in Saraguro, but it wouldn't be by the Catholic priest that everybody hated, and it shouldn't probably be by the missionary. I think he was out of town anyway, the missionary. I might have considered that. But the only way anybody would come to our very remote site, you know, the only way people would come to our wedding would be if I went to a major city. And more people worked in Guayaquil. Quito is much nicer, but we went. I stayed with two of the girls from my group who were roommates in Guayaquil. We had the reception in their apartment.

[Assistant] So at that point when you came up to Guayaquil to get married, you left Saraguro.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I mean, they knew your assignment was over and?

[User] Well, they knew I was quitting one way or another.

[Assistant] That you weren't going to be coming back. Did Jan stay on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] I mean, they knew your assignment was over and?

[User] Well, they knew I was quitting one way or another.

[Assistant] That you weren't going to be coming back. Did Jan stay on?

[User] Jan stayed on. She was only there a couple of months more before physical infirmities caught up with her, the constant ear infection and other things too that I don't remember. She got another roommate for a while and I don't remember. I mean, I didn't hear much about it.

[Assistant] But in effect, at that point, your connection with Ecuador and Peace Corps was kind of ended and you moved on to other things, Venezuela and lots more after that. But you, after that time, did you work for the Peace Corps at all? Or did just Mike?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jan stayed on. She was only there a couple of months more before physical infirmities caught up with her, the constant ear infection and other things too that I don't remember. She got another roommate for a while and I don't remember. I mean, I didn't hear much about it.

[Assistant] But in effect, at that point, your connection with Ecuador and Peace Corps was kind of ended and you moved on to other things, Venezuela and lots more after that. But you, after that time, did you work for the Peace Corps at all? Or did just Mike?

[User] No, I didn't work for the Peace Corps again.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] And my husband became a desk officer for five countries in 1970, I guess it was, in D.C. And then in.

[Assistant] But he was never a volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn't work for the Peace Corps again.

[Assistant] Yeah, OK.

[User] And my husband became a desk officer for five countries in 1970, I guess it was, in D.C. And then in.

[Assistant] But he was never a volunteer.

[User] No. Trainee.

[Assistant] He was just competent.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And my husband became a desk officer for five countries in 1970, I guess it was, in D.C. And then in.

[Assistant] But he was never a volunteer.

[User] No. Trainee.

[Assistant] He was just competent.

[User] Well, he became acting director of Latin America at the end of the.

[Assistant] In the seventies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Trainee.

[Assistant] He was just competent.

[User] Well, he became acting director of Latin America at the end of the.

[Assistant] In the seventies?

[User] Yeah, we were. We were allowed five years on staff, no more than five, because of the way Peace Corps was set up.

[Assistant] In, up and out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he became acting director of Latin America at the end of the.

[Assistant] In the seventies?

[User] Yeah, we were. We were allowed five years on staff, no more than five, because of the way Peace Corps was set up.

[Assistant] In, up and out.

[User] Yeah. And he was desk officer for a couple of years. By then we had two children, one born in Peru, and then we went back to Peru. And he was director of Peru for two years and we had our third daughter.

[Assistant] Peace Corps director?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we were. We were allowed five years on staff, no more than five, because of the way Peace Corps was set up.

[Assistant] In, up and out.

[User] Yeah. And he was desk officer for a couple of years. By then we had two children, one born in Peru, and then we went back to Peru. And he was director of Peru for two years and we had our third daughter.

[Assistant] Peace Corps director?

[User] Peace Corps director. Yeah, yeah. Peru didn't accept him as overall director. And we happened to have taken a vacation in September of '73 down to Chile, which I'd always wanted to visit. They had a coup. I was pregnant. I was having contractions. I thought, what happens? I have a history of dropping the babies early and I was a little concerned. But they, Peace Corps had contingency plans. And there are coups and there are coups. We were in Peru during the '68 coup, the Belaúnde coup, where the military knocked him out. They put him on a plane to the United States, where he lived in a penthouse in Chevy Chase and taught at universities. But Allende coup in Chile was a whole different kettle of fish. We heard machine guns every night. There was a curfew. And we heard in the day we'd go out and we'd see blood on the streets. It was a very frightening time.

[Assistant] So did you have the baby in Chile or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps director. Yeah, yeah. Peru didn't accept him as overall director. And we happened to have taken a vacation in September of '73 down to Chile, which I'd always wanted to visit. They had a coup. I was pregnant. I was having contractions. I thought, what happens? I have a history of dropping the babies early and I was a little concerned. But they, Peace Corps had contingency plans. And there are coups and there are coups. We were in Peru during the '68 coup, the Belaúnde coup, where the military knocked him out. They put him on a plane to the United States, where he lived in a penthouse in Chevy Chase and taught at universities. But Allende coup in Chile was a whole different kettle of fish. We heard machine guns every night. There was a curfew. And we heard in the day we'd go out and we'd see blood on the streets. It was a very frightening time.

[Assistant] So did you have the baby in Chile or?

[User] I ended up able, I got the first plane that we were allowed to be on by the government to go north. I walked out to the airport and I was so afraid that these guys, 17 year olds, they looked like, with machine guns and they were very stern looking. And I was so afraid they might shoot me that when they looked at me and asked me something, I'd put my hands up in the air, like in the Westerns. But we got on the plane and got up to Peru, and I was so glad. At that point, we had a couple of maids. We had a maid and a cook. And I had asked a Peace Corps couple who were in Lima to stay with my kids while I was gone. And I was so glad because I knew the maid would have frightened them to death about their parents being in Chile.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Anything else about the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, the last.

[Assistant] Your daughter? Go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Tell us how you felt about being part of history in the making.

[User] History in the making. To be honest with you, I didn't really think about it that way at the time. This was more going out to do the job, working the space program. There was the unique aspects of it, dealing with the Russians. Here I am, I'm going overseas to Russia, a completely foreign country, and I'm not doing it on just a short thing, I'm going out there for six weeks on my first time ever. So that was a little daunting. What in the world am I going to do out there for six weeks? Just how am I going to get by? So a lot more of it was a learning experience. What is it really like out here in Russia? I didn't really think much about the history at the time, maybe because by the time I went out, Norm had already been up there for two months. It was kind of accepted by then. I think for me the history thing was back on 63 when we had the approach and then on 71 when we actually had the first docking. That was more the historical event.

[Assistant] And where were you with 63? You were here?

[User] 63 I was here, and 71 I was here.

[Assistant] You were in--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] History in the making. To be honest with you, I didn't really think about it that way at the time. This was more going out to do the job, working the space program. There was the unique aspects of it, dealing with the Russians. Here I am, I'm going overseas to Russia, a completely foreign country, and I'm not doing it on just a short thing, I'm going out there for six weeks on my first time ever. So that was a little daunting. What in the world am I going to do out there for six weeks? Just how am I going to get by? So a lot more of it was a learning experience. What is it really like out here in Russia? I didn't really think much about the history at the time, maybe because by the time I went out, Norm had already been up there for two months. It was kind of accepted by then. I think for me the history thing was back on 63 when we had the approach and then on 71 when we actually had the first docking. That was more the historical event.

[Assistant] And where were you with 63? You were here?

[User] 63 I was here, and 71 I was here.

[Assistant] You were in--

[User] --in the control center as a groundhog.

[Assistant] And watching it all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 63 I was here, and 71 I was here.

[Assistant] You were in--

[User] --in the control center as a groundhog.

[Assistant] And watching it all.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Share with us what the feeling was in the room and for you, too, watching.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] --in the control center as a groundhog.

[Assistant] And watching it all.

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Share with us what the feeling was in the room and for you, too, watching.

[User] Of course everyone was nervously watching as it approached, because everyone had worked so hard for this for a couple of years, and everyone wanted it to work. They've got their fingers crossed, and they're on the edge of their seat. Of course, when they finally docked, they just broke out in applause, and the Russians are hugging everybody and pounding each other on the back, and probably if we'd let them, they would have broken out the vodka right then and there. But you know, like, "No, no. We're still at work. Can't do that. Got to wait till the shift's over. After the shift's over, then we go have a drink." When we docked, everyone was just ecstatic. It's like, "Great! All that work, all these years, it's finally paid off." We're working together. Got the Shuttle docked to a space station." People realized that was a historic thing at that point. I saved the Roundup that came out that week with the photo. I've still got that. So that was really exciting, being there for that.

[Assistant] And then the differences when you were in the control room in Moscow, especially when you heard about the fire, what was the environment there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More of it was practical stuff, it was a toothbrush, a razor, shampoo, just household living items, a bunch of batteries--he'd lost all his batteries. He said if you can squeeze in a book or a CD or something like that, because he lost all that personal stuff, too. So they put together a package pretty quick. But it was quite tense, especially for about the next week.\n\n The TsUP was unbelievably crowded, and they started having a commission within two days, and actually this time they allowed us to participate. They let me, or we actually had some managers out there. The working group happened to be going on. They let myself or the senior manager sit on their formal commission meetings, actually. That was interesting, to see how those went. Essentially they were just very methodical, checked out each possibility and do an analysis, see what the analysis says. I guess that's about it.

[Assistant] Was there a difference after the collision? Were people working closely together or differently after the collision compared to the time before--I'm talking about the Russians and the Americans--or was it about the same?

[User] No, our cooperation pretty much was the same. It was very different after the collision versus right after the fire. I mean, when the fire occurred at night, they didn't even tell us until the next morning. With the collision, they gave us full access to everything. They let us in the senior meeting with the presidents of the company and all that, which they had not done before. So that was a major change. Essentially anything we asked for they gave us, any information that we wanted whatsoever. So they were a lot more forthcoming after the collision. Essentially it's because after the fire they realized they goofed. They said, "Oops. Yeah, we should have told the Americans. We messed up." So things got a lot better.

[Assistant] Now, that wasn't a normal time over there for you, but did you have a normal time while you were there?

[User] Did I have any normal time?

[Assistant] What was your normal day like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Didn't have much time off, actually; one day a week, and usually you spent it grocery shopping, doing laundry, that sort of thing. But occasionally the Russians would have--you know, there's be a holiday, and, of course, some big party was going on somewhere, or they'd invite some people over to one of their houses for dinner, that sort of thing. Usually, though, the American group hung out by ourselves, again, because it was such a crazy schedule. When we got off, usually four or five of us had that same day off, and some of us would go out to dinner together. If we were on the day shift, we went out to dinner a couple times a week, usually. You tried to find time.\n\n Usually once a month you got a full weekend off, and you'd try to find time to do a little sightseeing, go to a museum, go to the Kremlin, go to a concert at night if you could. If you got a long weekend, people would try to go to St. Petersburg for two days, something like that, which was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] You made it there, then.

[User] Made it there three times. Over two years I made it there three times.

[Assistant] Was it anything like you expected?

[User] Oh, yes. St. Petersburg is a fabulous city. I'd read a lot about it. Very European. At the center of the city they've preserved all the historical stuff, so you can go to the Hermitage, which has been there for 300 years, or 200 years. I mean, the artwork is unbelievable, the palaces are incredible, the churches are something. You know, you have to see them to believe them. It's a fabulous city. I'd love to go back again; I'm sure I will.

[Assistant] And how did that differ from where you were living?