[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes. And I remember we also went out to work on the road because during the rainy season, the road out to the main road where you got the bus to Kisumu that, it was almost impassable during the rainy season. So we actually went out there and tried to fill in the ruts with rocks. And, and I went out there to prove I could do it too. And I worked with the girls for a while. I don't know if we made much progress on that road, but we tried. Um. And so they came and, um. The biggest celebration we ever had at the school was at the end where we got the letter that the government had agreed to take our school as a government school, and we really celebrated. Oh my gosh.

[Assistant] Congratulations.

[User] And that school still exists today.

[Assistant] So what, what did it take to become a government school?

[User] I think they needed to see that the school was stable and that there were teachers there. I think unfortunately it was probably a mark of distinction that there was a foreigner there teaching, you know, a white woman. Um. And that the school had been able to attract and keep someone and. I don't know. I'm sure I provided lots of records, showed them that the records were being kept well.

[Assistant] So once, so all of your students then became, became students in government schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that school still exists today.

[Assistant] So what, what did it take to become a government school?

[User] I think they needed to see that the school was stable and that there were teachers there. I think unfortunately it was probably a mark of distinction that there was a foreigner there teaching, you know, a white woman. Um. And that the school had been able to attract and keep someone and. I don't know. I'm sure I provided lots of records, showed them that the records were being kept well.

[Assistant] So once, so all of your students then became, became students in government schools?

[User] And they only, yeah, and they added only a year at a time. So I think, I think maybe the first year that was still going to be the form one and two. So some of my students still needed to get in at other schools, um, and then the next year was going to be form three and then form four. So, um.

[Assistant] So it started out with just two years and then went to four years. Well, that's really exciting. That's a major accomplishment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she hadn't heard from me in 15 years. So I walked in her front door and there was this daughter with the little baby. And they said, well, this is little Paula, named after you. And I was just, I mean, that was one of the most incredible experiences of my life after the Oginga Odinga experience. And so naturally, you know, I became, I sponsored her through grade school, high school, and she got a master's degree. And she now is working in early childhood education.

[Assistant] In Kenya?

[User] In Kenya. Yeah.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] So that's little Paula.

[Assistant] Little Paula is now grown up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Tremendous impact on these individuals and clearly on you.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you did this for a year and a half or I guess two years?

[User] Well, I taught there for six months and then a year and a half as headmistress.

[Assistant] So when your two years were up, what, what happened then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you did this for a year and a half or I guess two years?

[User] Well, I taught there for six months and then a year and a half as headmistress.

[Assistant] So when your two years were up, what, what happened then?

[User] Well, first the community gave me this lovely party that I mentioned to you where I got the little beaded crown, and it was actually in. I have to find this if it's here. Well, I guess I didn't bring it, but um. Oh, here it is. No. They somehow it got in the Daily Nation, which was the Kenyan newspaper, a little article about it, with a headline that said Peace, uh, "Community Praises Peace Corps Volunteer." And then there was another newspaper called the East African Standard, and it was there in a little photograph, and that was quite lovely.

[Assistant] You had quite some recognition. You started off with a famous man and you ended up in the newspaper. And then and then, uh, did you come straight home or had you thought about staying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I taught there for six months and then a year and a half as headmistress.

[Assistant] So when your two years were up, what, what happened then?

[User] Well, first the community gave me this lovely party that I mentioned to you where I got the little beaded crown, and it was actually in. I have to find this if it's here. Well, I guess I didn't bring it, but um. Oh, here it is. No. They somehow it got in the Daily Nation, which was the Kenyan newspaper, a little article about it, with a headline that said Peace, uh, "Community Praises Peace Corps Volunteer." And then there was another newspaper called the East African Standard, and it was there in a little photograph, and that was quite lovely.

[Assistant] You had quite some recognition. You started off with a famous man and you ended up in the newspaper. And then and then, uh, did you come straight home or had you thought about staying?

[User] That's the Daily Nation in the lower right. It was the East Africa Standard. And you can see the little crown.

[Assistant] Yeah, very nice. It's a picture of her in a little beaded crown. Very nice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Anyway, so then my friend from Nia School and the other woman who had taught at Nia and I went on the road for six months. And originally we'd planned to go through India, but we changed plans and we spent all six months in Africa. So, um, we had so many adventures along the way. Usually we hitchhiked, you know, and, um, tried to be Peace Corps volunteers even though we had finished with our service. As you know, that's the way Peace Corps volunteers travel. So we're on the road and it was a fabulous experience. We first went south to Tanzania, Malawi, Zambia, Zimbabwe. We tried to get into South Africa. They wouldn't let us in because we had, I suppose because we had been Peace Corps volunteers.

And then we flew, oh my gosh, brush with history. We were due to fly to West Africa through Entebbe, with a fuel stop in Entebbe. But the pilot said that the plane had been diverted because there had been a coup in Uganda and Idi Amin had just taken over. And I thought if we'd been a day earlier, we would have been, who knows? Messed up with that whole horrible happening. But instead we were back in Nairobi just for a night.

[Assistant] They took hostages in, on a plane in Entebbe, you remember? The Israeli commandos saved, it must have been an Israeli plane, I can't remember the details. But there was a whole rescuing people.

[User] Yeah. I remember the rescue mission for the Falasha in Ethiopia. The Jews.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I'd forgotten this. Well, so then we got to West Africa and we went, we traveled to Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, Ivory Coast.

[Assistant] So you saw a lot of Africa, clearly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I remember the rescue mission for the Falasha in Ethiopia. The Jews.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But I'd forgotten this. Well, so then we got to West Africa and we went, we traveled to Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, Ivory Coast.

[Assistant] So you saw a lot of Africa, clearly.

[User] Mali, Morocco. Yes, we did. And over the years, I've been to 24 African countries so, for all kinds of things.

[Assistant] So you traveled and then you came back to the United States.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I'd forgotten this. Well, so then we got to West Africa and we went, we traveled to Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, Ivory Coast.

[Assistant] So you saw a lot of Africa, clearly.

[User] Mali, Morocco. Yes, we did. And over the years, I've been to 24 African countries so, for all kinds of things.

[Assistant] So you traveled and then you came back to the United States.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And did you go back to teaching or what?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mali, Morocco. Yes, we did. And over the years, I've been to 24 African countries so, for all kinds of things.

[Assistant] So you traveled and then you came back to the United States.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And did you go back to teaching or what?

[User] I didn't because I had another strong pull. I wanted to become a writer. I loved writing. I was always a compulsive writer. And, um, so I became a newspaper reporter on a weekly outside Minneapolis and loved that job. And, um, and then I married another Peace Corps volunteer. And we.

[Assistant] Not from Kenya though?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And did you go back to teaching or what?

[User] I didn't because I had another strong pull. I wanted to become a writer. I loved writing. I was always a compulsive writer. And, um, so I became a newspaper reporter on a weekly outside Minneapolis and loved that job. And, um, and then I married another Peace Corps volunteer. And we.

[Assistant] Not from Kenya though?

[User] He was from Ethiopia. And then after several years, we moved to Washington in 1977. And I continued my career as a writer here in Washington. He worked, he was working for the Housing and Urban Development. Anyway.

[Assistant] Then you ended up back in West Africa in, I forgot, in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't because I had another strong pull. I wanted to become a writer. I loved writing. I was always a compulsive writer. And, um, so I became a newspaper reporter on a weekly outside Minneapolis and loved that job. And, um, and then I married another Peace Corps volunteer. And we.

[Assistant] Not from Kenya though?

[User] He was from Ethiopia. And then after several years, we moved to Washington in 1977. And I continued my career as a writer here in Washington. He worked, he was working for the Housing and Urban Development. Anyway.

[Assistant] Then you ended up back in West Africa in, I forgot, in?

[User] Senegal. 2005, yeah.

[Assistant] 2005 in Senegal. So how, how does a reporter in Washington, D.C., end up in Senegal as a Peace Corps volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So I'm trying always to do creative tours, educational tours.

[Assistant] So Africa has been in your blood.

[User] Yeah, it has.

[Assistant] So. So you came back, you married this former Peace Corps volunteer, and then did you go to Senegal together?

[User]
Yes. So he has always worked on the Hill and, um. And he was getting towards the end of his career on the Hill. At one point he went off the Hill for a while, but then he ended up back on the Hill working for Senate, committees on the Senate side. And he was close to retiring.

And also I'd gone through a period of looking after my parents from long distance because they were still in Minneapolis. And they died in 2001 and 2002. And during that time, I had a part time teaching job at the University of D.C. So, um, that's what I was doing, that was taking care of my parents long distance, flying back and forth. Also, of course, my sister was still with them, the one with Down syndrome. So that was a complication and it took a lot of effort to figure out how to arrange their lives at that point. But they died in 2001 and 2002.

[Assistant] Is your sister still alive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes. So he has always worked on the Hill and, um. And he was getting towards the end of his career on the Hill. At one point he went off the Hill for a while, but then he ended up back on the Hill working for Senate, committees on the Senate side. And he was close to retiring.

And also I'd gone through a period of looking after my parents from long distance because they were still in Minneapolis. And they died in 2001 and 2002. And during that time, I had a part time teaching job at the University of D.C. So, um, that's what I was doing, that was taking care of my parents long distance, flying back and forth. Also, of course, my sister was still with them, the one with Down syndrome. So that was a complication and it took a lot of effort to figure out how to arrange their lives at that point. But they died in 2001 and 2002.

[Assistant] Is your sister still alive?

[User] No, my sister, um. There's a good group home. There's a good social services system in Hennepin County, which encompasses Minneapolis, and we had found a group home for her. But I was, I became her guardian along with my other sister. Um. But my other sister agreed that if I was going to go back in Peace Corps, that she would take over the guardianship duties while I was gone.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So, by the way, I have a. How do you know this is, are you able to read? How do you know if it's recording well?

[Assistant] It's, it's doing it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, my sister, um. There's a good group home. There's a good social services system in Hennepin County, which encompasses Minneapolis, and we had found a group home for her. But I was, I became her guardian along with my other sister. Um. But my other sister agreed that if I was going to go back in Peace Corps, that she would take over the guardianship duties while I was gone.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So, by the way, I have a. How do you know this is, are you able to read? How do you know if it's recording well?

[Assistant] It's, it's doing it.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] It's doing it. Not to worry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, by the way, I have a. How do you know this is, are you able to read? How do you know if it's recording well?

[Assistant] It's, it's doing it.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] It's doing it. Not to worry.

[User] Okay. Just curious.

[Assistant] Yes, it keeps going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Just curious.

[Assistant] Yes, it keeps going.

[User] Because I see we've, I've been talking for almost an hour.

[Assistant] It's fine.

[User] Yeah. So, um. So my husband immediately agreed. He had served in Nepal in the same years as I was in Kenya by coincidence, '69 to '70. And he had loved it. He had loved his small village and the whole experience. And so when I said, shall we rejoin the Peace Corps? He immediately agreed. And then I said, but I want it to be Africa. And that was fine with him. So we were assigned to Senegal. And that was a point when Peace Corps was trying to get volunteers who are older. I don't know if they're still recruiting that way.

[Assistant] I don't know. But I've interviewed quite a few people who are older.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah. Good. Well, anyway, um, so we went. And I'll never forget the day when he called to say that we had our assignments. And I had assumed that since much of my career has been writing, editing, teaching English, teaching writing that I would be assigned to something like, since this is a francophone country, something like English curriculum development or something like that, who knows? But instead I was assigned to SED, which is small enterprise development. So I said, well, no way, we'll just have to go back to them and get another assignment, because I don't know anything about starting small businesses. But he convinced me I could do it and should do it so. And his assignment was to plant trees. So, um.

And this time we went over there for our training in country in the town of Thies and found ourselves with 25 of the most incredible 20 somethings. I mean, this was just a remarkable group of young people. And perhaps I would have said that no matter who we were with, just because, you know, you bond with. I bonded much more with that group than I ever did with the Kenya group for various reasons. But we were, we could have been grandparents for most of them in terms of age. There was only one other couple and they were kind of midway between the two groups. But they accepted us. You know, we were so grateful and sometimes even looked to us for advice. And so we went through training there. I felt much more critical of the training.

[Assistant] What was the training? Where was the training?

[User] In Thies?

[Assistant] Oh, in Thies.

[User] The city, which is inland from Dakar by about 2 hours. I think it's the third largest or fourth largest city in Senegal. And there's a Peace Corps training center there that I believe they still, they still are using, a lovely setting for it. And we had a homestay with a family that, we stayed with families in Thies, and that was a good experience.

[Assistant] So you were about to say that you were more critical of this training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So that was my favorite thing, I think, of anything.

[Assistant] And what kind of businesses did these women start?

[User] Well, I found a group of Bambara women descended from the families that had settled. Our town was called Guinguineo. And it was actually a fabulous site, kind of a peaceful town, about 20 K north of the city of Kaolack in Senegal, which I would not have wanted to be placed in a city. But this town, maybe 20 or 30,000 people, was just ideal. I mean, it was not on the road to anywhere so you didn't have cars racing through town or anything. Someone might say a good place to raise your kids.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
You know. And we just got, I think by that time I had my master's degree in anthropology. So I think I really, at first I just was at a loss as what to do. So I decided to really get to know Guinguineo. So I went around doing, you know, participant observer interviews all over town and writing up all my findings and trying to understand the town. Getting to know a lot of people too, which was useful. So I found this group of Bambara women who lived in a kind of enclave at the edge of town, and, um, and they seemed to be really together as a women's group. And they seemed eager to have me come. And we decided to do a porridge project because they're, they were famous for the porridge that they, uh, millet porridge that they had made years ago.

And I saw all these kids eating white bread for breakfast. And it's just, I know if I eat white bread for breakfast, I'm hungry by 10:00, you know. And it was sort of a legacy from the French, I think. But anyway, so I thought it'd be great if everyone could eat this porridge. So we went through the whole process of making it and bagging it and putting the labels on, and it was just so much fun. We had a great time with those women working on that.

[Assistant] Did it survive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] They didn't carry it on without me, and I'm not sure why. I think it could have been that they didn't have, that I hadn't focused on developing a good process for how the profits were going to be used and that maybe the profits just disappeared. And maybe it was too near the end of my service and I had hoped that the Peace Corps volunteer who followed me would take it on and look after that. But oftentimes, because they didn't have that kind of direction for the Peace Corps, to carry on previous volunteers' projects. They were supposed to do their own thing and, you know, that. It didn't work. She didn't get involved in that.

[Assistant] When you say the money disappeared, it wasn't, was it stolen or it just?

[User] No, I'm not sure what happened to it, because by then I was gone. And I went back to see them afterwards and that was kind of the explanation they gave as to why the project did not continue. They, you know, but we sure had a good time, those six or eight months working on and selling. Oh my God, that porridge was so delicious. You know, I bought so many that, you know, and always served it to our guests when they came. Really good and really filled your stomach in the morning and very healthy too. So I did that. And then we also adopted, um, we had some trouble making inroads into Guinguineo itself. You know, it had its little cliques and cartiers and.

[Assistant] This is all in French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well.

[Assistant] For you, and then I guess from the point of view of impact. Maybe there really wasn't any difference.

[User]
I mean, so one was Anglophone, mostly Christian country, East Africa. The other was Francophone, mostly Muslim, West Africa. So there were huge differences in terms of the culture and history of the countries. And then, you know, like everything was different about my personal experience because, I mean, there I'd been, this young woman who was just all by myself out there and given this huge responsibility to run the school and succeeded. And, you know, what a, I think it gave me enough confidence to propel me through life from that point. So that was fabulous.

And the second time, not only did I come with my husband but also we were part of a family, so we weren't so independent. We always needed to report. I'll never forget one time the.

[Assistant] You were part of a family?

[User] Well, in, um, at our site in Guinguineo because it's a Muslim country so all volunteers are placed with families. And I think that happens in some even non-Muslim countries too. But it's just thought that you can integrate better if you're considered part of a family. So most families have compounds.

[Assistant] So you lived on the compound?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I mean, so one was Anglophone, mostly Christian country, East Africa. The other was Francophone, mostly Muslim, West Africa. So there were huge differences in terms of the culture and history of the countries. And then, you know, like everything was different about my personal experience because, I mean, there I'd been, this young woman who was just all by myself out there and given this huge responsibility to run the school and succeeded. And, you know, what a, I think it gave me enough confidence to propel me through life from that point. So that was fabulous.

And the second time, not only did I come with my husband but also we were part of a family, so we weren't so independent. We always needed to report. I'll never forget one time the.

[Assistant] You were part of a family?

[User] Well, in, um, at our site in Guinguineo because it's a Muslim country so all volunteers are placed with families. And I think that happens in some even non-Muslim countries too. But it's just thought that you can integrate better if you're considered part of a family. So most families have compounds.

[Assistant] So you lived on the compound?

[User] And we had our own little house, but it belonged to the family. And it was, you know, there was a fence around. We were included. And we were right next door to the main family house. So we participated a lot, especially on holidays. You know, we would become part of the, the family celebration or special, you know. When the adult children would be visiting, we'd be invited over. And actually we took our meals, our mid-day meals, with the family every day. So that was.

[Assistant] So clearly, a very different experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very different. The other thing that made it really different for me was adjusting to the needs of my husband. You know, we, we think of the whole experience very fondly. You know, we love, we love Guinguineo. When I think about the two sites that I was given, Nyamira and then Guinguineo, I think there just couldn't be two more wonderful sites. It was just a lovely little town and the people were so welcoming and a lot of them had come there, well, their fathers or grandfathers had come there to work on the railroad. Because when the French built the railroad that went to Bamako, you know?

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Through Senegal, all the way to Bamako, which really doesn't operate much anymore, but it went through Guinguineo. That was one. And so the old train station is still there.

[Assistant] Oh, nice.

[User] Some of the old cars. Yeah, it was really, whenever friends would come to visit, we'd take them on a tour of the old railroad station and the big warehouses where the old cars were still, some of them were still there.

[Assistant] But you were saying that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of the old cars. Yeah, it was really, whenever friends would come to visit, we'd take them on a tour of the old railroad station and the big warehouses where the old cars were still, some of them were still there.

[Assistant] But you were saying that?

[User] But the other thing is that my husband had another priority. So he had worked on the Hill for 40 years, and he had oftentimes worked on legislation to reform something in the government. I mean, it was just his nature to want to write legislation to change things, to make them better. So he took on the whole Peace Corps while we were there and decided that reform was needed. And because I was living with him and traveling with him and even, you know, we worked on some projects together, um, I was kind of drawn into it. So I became a co-reformer. And he was still in touch with some of his people he'd worked with on the Hill. And one of them happened to work for Senator Dodd, who, as you know, was I think the only Senator who has been a Peace Corps volunteer. Or is there another one now?

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Anyway, um, at the time he was head of the Foreign Relations.

[Assistant] He was, I think, the only Senator to ever.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, um, at the time he was head of the Foreign Relations.

[Assistant] He was, I think, the only Senator to ever.

[User] Right, no, lots and lots of Representatives.

[Assistant] Representatives, yeah.

[User]
But anyway, so he was head of the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere, the Peace Corps, and whatever else it covered. So, um. And of course, he was always interested in the Peace Corps and loved his time. I think he still said that was the best thing he ever did, you know, so, um. So Chuck got in touch with one of the staffers who he knew. And together, I think mostly Chuck, developed this reform legislation to reform the Peace Corps. There were a lot of things that we saw that could have been improved. We, we felt that since we'd been in the Peace Corps that there had been so many regulations passed. You know, every time something goes wrong, then there'd be a new regulation. But just like with the federal government, the regulations are never eliminated. So there's this hole.

And he felt that it was way too hierarchical. I mean, for example, my wonderful experience being a headmistress probably couldn't happen anymore because the Peace Corps would have said, no way, that's not what you're supposed to be doing. So, but back, you know, the first time there, the Peace Corps was very young, very flexible. There weren't that many regulations, we could do pretty much.

[Assistant] Everybody had motorcycles and no more motorcycles.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
But anyway, so he was head of the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere, the Peace Corps, and whatever else it covered. So, um. And of course, he was always interested in the Peace Corps and loved his time. I think he still said that was the best thing he ever did, you know, so, um. So Chuck got in touch with one of the staffers who he knew. And together, I think mostly Chuck, developed this reform legislation to reform the Peace Corps. There were a lot of things that we saw that could have been improved. We, we felt that since we'd been in the Peace Corps that there had been so many regulations passed. You know, every time something goes wrong, then there'd be a new regulation. But just like with the federal government, the regulations are never eliminated. So there's this hole.

And he felt that it was way too hierarchical. I mean, for example, my wonderful experience being a headmistress probably couldn't happen anymore because the Peace Corps would have said, no way, that's not what you're supposed to be doing. So, but back, you know, the first time there, the Peace Corps was very young, very flexible. There weren't that many regulations, we could do pretty much.

[Assistant] Everybody had motorcycles and no more motorcycles.

[User] Well, we weren't allowed to ride motorcycles even then. This was the late sixties.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. Although I think the ag volunteers could, but not us.

[Assistant] I was just going to, okay, people keep talking about these motorcycles.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we weren't allowed to ride motorcycles even then. This was the late sixties.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah. Although I think the ag volunteers could, but not us.

[Assistant] I was just going to, okay, people keep talking about these motorcycles.

[User] I know. Yeah. So eventually this Peace Corps, this legislation was, Senator Dodd introduced it and said he was going to have a hearing on it and invited us to testify. And so we decided we would go. This was to be in July 2007.

[Assistant] So your husband actually drafted it when he was overseas?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Although I think the ag volunteers could, but not us.

[Assistant] I was just going to, okay, people keep talking about these motorcycles.

[User] I know. Yeah. So eventually this Peace Corps, this legislation was, Senator Dodd introduced it and said he was going to have a hearing on it and invited us to testify. And so we decided we would go. This was to be in July 2007.

[Assistant] So your husband actually drafted it when he was overseas?

[User]
Yeah. He did. And in communication with this, with the staff on the subcommittee. And, um, Peace Corps headquarters, well, the Dakar office had already had some run-ins with my husband, or I should say he had some run-ins with them. So, you know, we felt a little threatened already. But when they heard that we were, we wanted to go testify, they said, well, you don't have any vacation time to do this. Or you don't have enough vacation time. And then we said, well, we'll take leave, you know, there was also a category of leave. And, um, and they really wouldn't give us any extra day to do this. They said, we're not going to allow you any time. But somehow we fit it in to the one or two days of leave we had left and a weekend.

And I don't know how we did it, but it was, the whole trip to D.C. and back was crammed into like four days, five days. A very exhausting. And so we went to this Senate Subcommittee hearing dressed in our really most beautiful Senegalese clothes. And when Senator Dodd saw us, he said, wow! He said, looks like the Senegalese Chamber of Commerce dressed you for this occasion. And he was delighted. He was very welcoming. But, of course, Peace Corps headquarters was not so happy that we were there. And they testified too and said everything was hunky dory. But we had really found, um, that Peace Corps was cracking down too much on the volunteers.

[Assistant] So what was the essence of the reform?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, there were quite a few different, um, different items. One of them was we wanted, we felt Peace Corps was the only agency where I think neither staff nor volunteers had whistleblower rights. And that was a key thing. And I believe what happened eventually when we got back from, um. We also thought there should be an easier way to get funding of projects because it was so bureaucratic to go through that, that Peace Corps, and I can't remember the name of the fund, but that fund that provides some money.

And we felt we really needed better training. Neither he nor I had had training that really enabled us to do what we should have done. I felt that a business training program focused on trying to get the Senegalese to do better accounting was not the right way to go. We also wanted better language training because as older learners, we, you know, some of these things are specific to Senegal, but other things could apply to.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] We felt that probably across all Peace Corps countries, there were programs that were just not working, that just went on and on and on. And nobody, what we wanted was more, a means for volunteers to communicate their views of the program, the training, the program, so that they could participate in how they make, to make it a better program. And eventually we worked with Carrie, the Peace Corps director.

[Assistant] Hessler-Radelet.

[User] Hessler-Radelet, yeah, and she was fabulous. And as you probably know, she made so many wonderful reforms. But we worked with her. My husband especially worked with her for about the last couple of years that she, that she was director. And it was.

[Assistant] So did the legislation ever pass?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We felt that probably across all Peace Corps countries, there were programs that were just not working, that just went on and on and on. And nobody, what we wanted was more, a means for volunteers to communicate their views of the program, the training, the program, so that they could participate in how they make, to make it a better program. And eventually we worked with Carrie, the Peace Corps director.

[Assistant] Hessler-Radelet.

[User] Hessler-Radelet, yeah, and she was fabulous. And as you probably know, she made so many wonderful reforms. But we worked with her. My husband especially worked with her for about the last couple of years that she, that she was director. And it was.

[Assistant] So did the legislation ever pass?

[User] Yeah, she took a lot of things that were in there so, but I mean she had her own ideas for like.

[Assistant] But it didn't pass as legislation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, she took a lot of things that were in there so, but I mean she had her own ideas for like.

[Assistant] But it didn't pass as legislation?

[User] Not specifically, because what happened was Senator Dodd kind of abandoned it when he started to run for president. And, uh, and then he didn't, eventually didn't come back to the Senate anyway.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So then you came here, you testified, you went back?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not specifically, because what happened was Senator Dodd kind of abandoned it when he started to run for president. And, uh, and then he didn't, eventually didn't come back to the Senate anyway.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So then you came here, you testified, you went back?

[User] Yeah, we, we had about 50 friends who filled the hearing room. It was a riot. And Chuck's aged father, who was 92 at that point, flew in from California. My parents weren't around, but for the. And then he took us all, all 50 friends out to dinner, or lunch I guess. And so it was, it was a lot of fun. And I think maybe our voices were heard by someone and, you know.

[Assistant] So you had an impact that way as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So then you came here, you testified, you went back?

[User] Yeah, we, we had about 50 friends who filled the hearing room. It was a riot. And Chuck's aged father, who was 92 at that point, flew in from California. My parents weren't around, but for the. And then he took us all, all 50 friends out to dinner, or lunch I guess. And so it was, it was a lot of fun. And I think maybe our voices were heard by someone and, you know.

[Assistant] So you had an impact that way as well.

[User] Well, I hope. My husband certainly believes we did. I'm always a little more, less certain about impacts than other people are. I think it comes in many indirect ways.

[Assistant] So then you went back and you finished your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
But two incredible things. I mean, I keep thinking of these little stories as, as serendipity or little miracles in my life. At the end of her one year stay, because CorpsAfrica is for only one year, she, um. She welcomed a Peace Corps volunteer to her site, to the same village. And then she helped this Peace Corps volunteer start a girls club in that little village. She said, you should do this. This is the most wonderful thing you can do.

And then the village, Maka Baye, that Chuck and I have adopted, or maybe the chief had adopted us, outside of Guinguineo. That chief had always wanted a volunteer to live there, and we had mentioned it the Peace Corps. But there had been no Peace Corps volunteer assigned to Maka Baye. Fatica somehow arranged to have a CorpsAfrica volunteer assigned to. So she sent me the picture and the chief is just beaming beside this young Senegalese woman who was going to live in his village and help him do projects for a year. So, I mean, it's just like full circle again and again.

[Assistant] Well, you've trained the next generation as well. That's really great.

[User] Yeah, and this program is, Liz Fanning thinks it's going to go, and she says by the year I think 2030 it's going to be in every country in Africa she says. Right now they're only in four countries. Morocco, Senegal, Malawi, and Rwanda. So.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you've had a full Peace Corps life and you've brought Peace Corps back.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, and this program is, Liz Fanning thinks it's going to go, and she says by the year I think 2030 it's going to be in every country in Africa she says. Right now they're only in four countries. Morocco, Senegal, Malawi, and Rwanda. So.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you've had a full Peace Corps life and you've brought Peace Corps back.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you've been talking.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hosting people from Senegal, or Kenya too, because Gerry, my Kenyan friend, lives in D.C. and her children often come through so. So that's, you know, I really, in terms of impact. I think Peace Corps has had a tremendous impact in this country because every time I find out about some project where there's a new medical intervention that, you know, is really doing well in developing countries. Or some, oftentimes at the museum, there will be an anthropologist who comes through and has curated this incredible exhibition or something, and it's.

[Assistant] Some Peace Corps.

[User] And you look into their bio and you look back and back and back and they don't always make a big deal of it. But you often find that Peace Corps was a factor. And I think it goes for leadership in a lot of federal agencies, at least in the past, I don't know what's happening now. But, you know, State Department, USAID, all the NGOs, the top NGOs.

[Assistant] Filled with Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Filled, yeah. So I think that's, you know, that we've had an impact, that Peace Corps has had an impact that way. So it certainly was, you know, a crucial theme throughout my life. Everything.

[Assistant] It had an impact in the country. It had an impact in the United States. And clearly, personally, it's having tremendous impact on your life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you look into their bio and you look back and back and back and they don't always make a big deal of it. But you often find that Peace Corps was a factor. And I think it goes for leadership in a lot of federal agencies, at least in the past, I don't know what's happening now. But, you know, State Department, USAID, all the NGOs, the top NGOs.

[Assistant] Filled with Peace Corps volunteers.

[User] Filled, yeah. So I think that's, you know, that we've had an impact, that Peace Corps has had an impact that way. So it certainly was, you know, a crucial theme throughout my life. Everything.

[Assistant] It had an impact in the country. It had an impact in the United States. And clearly, personally, it's having tremendous impact on your life.

[User] Yeah, unbelievable. So I hope it goes on for many decades to come.

[Assistant] Well, good. This has been a really great interview. Anything else? Anything else that you wanted to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Filled, yeah. So I think that's, you know, that we've had an impact, that Peace Corps has had an impact that way. So it certainly was, you know, a crucial theme throughout my life. Everything.

[Assistant] It had an impact in the country. It had an impact in the United States. And clearly, personally, it's having tremendous impact on your life.

[User] Yeah, unbelievable. So I hope it goes on for many decades to come.

[Assistant] Well, good. This has been a really great interview. Anything else? Anything else that you wanted to talk about?

[User] You know, I stopped. I stopped looking here. So let me see if there is anything else that I.

[Assistant] You've told lots and lots of stories.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, unbelievable. So I hope it goes on for many decades to come.

[Assistant] Well, good. This has been a really great interview. Anything else? Anything else that you wanted to talk about?

[User] You know, I stopped. I stopped looking here. So let me see if there is anything else that I.

[Assistant] You've told lots and lots of stories.

[User] I have. So I think I've covered pretty much what I wanted to say. And, you know, I just, I guess I've said this and it sounds really hokey, but I've said it before, in that I'm just grateful to live in a country that has a Peace Corps. And that I was lucky enough to go. I mean, imagine being in Africa just when these countries, I was in Kenya just after independence, and it was still, there was so much hope and joy, you know, yet before.

[Assistant] Many bad things happened.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, I stopped. I stopped looking here. So let me see if there is anything else that I.

[Assistant] You've told lots and lots of stories.

[User] I have. So I think I've covered pretty much what I wanted to say. And, you know, I just, I guess I've said this and it sounds really hokey, but I've said it before, in that I'm just grateful to live in a country that has a Peace Corps. And that I was lucky enough to go. I mean, imagine being in Africa just when these countries, I was in Kenya just after independence, and it was still, there was so much hope and joy, you know, yet before.

[Assistant] Many bad things happened.

[User] Yes. So it was an amazing time to be there. But I would say that being in Senegal 40 years later was also an incredible experience. And, you know, it gave me a son and a daughter. I don't have children of my own. So it's wonderful to be able to, to help and to mentor all these other children. Young people, they're not children. Yeah.

[Assistant] So thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have. So I think I've covered pretty much what I wanted to say. And, you know, I just, I guess I've said this and it sounds really hokey, but I've said it before, in that I'm just grateful to live in a country that has a Peace Corps. And that I was lucky enough to go. I mean, imagine being in Africa just when these countries, I was in Kenya just after independence, and it was still, there was so much hope and joy, you know, yet before.

[Assistant] Many bad things happened.

[User] Yes. So it was an amazing time to be there. But I would say that being in Senegal 40 years later was also an incredible experience. And, you know, it gave me a son and a daughter. I don't have children of my own. So it's wonderful to be able to, to help and to mentor all these other children. Young people, they're not children. Yeah.

[Assistant] So thank you so much.

[User] You're welcome. Thank you for doing this work. It's, um.

[Assistant] It's good to remember those stories.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sharipov.

[Assistant] Sharipov. I'm sorry.\n\n Okay. We're here in Building 1 in the Conference Room to get -- you were gracious enough to give an interview before you left town to go back to Russia after your flight on STS-89. And I've given you a copy of the questions here. And we just wanted to find out a little bit about yourself for all the people that are going to be listening to this tape and watching it. The first question is, just tell us a little bit about your hometown, where you grew up living in -- I think it's, if I pronounce it right here, Kaza--

[User] Kirgizstan.

[Assistant] Kirgizstan. Pardon my English. I'm slaughtering the Russian titles of your state. So if you wanted to -- I know this is a small map, but if you wanted to point it out.

[User] This place.

[Assistant] And then the city that you were born in I think is --


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kirgizstan.

[Assistant] Kirgizstan. Pardon my English. I'm slaughtering the Russian titles of your state. So if you wanted to -- I know this is a small map, but if you wanted to point it out.

[User] This place.

[Assistant] And then the city that you were born in I think is --

[User] I was born in Usgen City, which is a very small city of about 50,000 people. Our city has a great history. This year we celebrated 2500 years of our city. We have very great ancient buildings that was built in the fifth and seventh century. So I grew up in the city. My parents, my friends are all there. They are waiting in the city. Of course, it would be interesting to tour my city to see my friends.

[Assistant] So your family still lives there. I know you talked about your father still lives there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This place.

[Assistant] And then the city that you were born in I think is --

[User] I was born in Usgen City, which is a very small city of about 50,000 people. Our city has a great history. This year we celebrated 2500 years of our city. We have very great ancient buildings that was built in the fifth and seventh century. So I grew up in the city. My parents, my friends are all there. They are waiting in the city. Of course, it would be interesting to tour my city to see my friends.

[Assistant] So your family still lives there. I know you talked about your father still lives there?

[User] My father, my sister, brothers, they live in Usgen City. We have a big family. I have four brothers and two sisters. So I grew up in a big family. I have a father and, of course, many relatives.

[Assistant] I'm sure they are very proud of you and all of your accomplishments.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Usgen City, which is a very small city of about 50,000 people. Our city has a great history. This year we celebrated 2500 years of our city. We have very great ancient buildings that was built in the fifth and seventh century. So I grew up in the city. My parents, my friends are all there. They are waiting in the city. Of course, it would be interesting to tour my city to see my friends.

[Assistant] So your family still lives there. I know you talked about your father still lives there?

[User] My father, my sister, brothers, they live in Usgen City. We have a big family. I have four brothers and two sisters. So I grew up in a big family. I have a father and, of course, many relatives.

[Assistant] I'm sure they are very proud of you and all of your accomplishments.

[User] I hope.

[Assistant] Can you -- Connie talked about the -- this -- is it Zirba Space Center, the professor that you had there, the academian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My father, my sister, brothers, they live in Usgen City. We have a big family. I have four brothers and two sisters. So I grew up in a big family. I have a father and, of course, many relatives.

[Assistant] I'm sure they are very proud of you and all of your accomplishments.

[User] I hope.

[Assistant] Can you -- Connie talked about the -- this -- is it Zirba Space Center, the professor that you had there, the academian?

[User] Of course, mine is northeast Uzbek, but I was born in Kirgizstan. So Uzbek -- I have many Uzbek friends in Kazakhstan, Uzbek and Kirgizstan. So they all the time support me in my job. I have my best friend, he's chief of a big factory, Anto Quinott. In both space and English, Professor Rehedoff, he wrote a long time of his national space agency and he has a big experience about making many, many things that he wrote on space.

[Assistant] Have any of his payloads flown on Mir or a spaceship?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I hope.

[Assistant] Can you -- Connie talked about the -- this -- is it Zirba Space Center, the professor that you had there, the academian?

[User] Of course, mine is northeast Uzbek, but I was born in Kirgizstan. So Uzbek -- I have many Uzbek friends in Kazakhstan, Uzbek and Kirgizstan. So they all the time support me in my job. I have my best friend, he's chief of a big factory, Anto Quinott. In both space and English, Professor Rehedoff, he wrote a long time of his national space agency and he has a big experience about making many, many things that he wrote on space.

[Assistant] Have any of his payloads flown on Mir or a spaceship?

[User] No. No. Uzbekstan and Kirgizstan became a freedom countries. So now each country has some difficulties with financing. So now they can't -- my thought here, they couldn't make something -- I mean, payload. So I hope in future experience they will do the same as USA and Russia and other countries reach space.

[Assistant] So I guess since your town was on the border and you had ties to both countries, you kind of bring them together by your space flight then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, mine is northeast Uzbek, but I was born in Kirgizstan. So Uzbek -- I have many Uzbek friends in Kazakhstan, Uzbek and Kirgizstan. So they all the time support me in my job. I have my best friend, he's chief of a big factory, Anto Quinott. In both space and English, Professor Rehedoff, he wrote a long time of his national space agency and he has a big experience about making many, many things that he wrote on space.

[Assistant] Have any of his payloads flown on Mir or a spaceship?

[User] No. No. Uzbekstan and Kirgizstan became a freedom countries. So now each country has some difficulties with financing. So now they can't -- my thought here, they couldn't make something -- I mean, payload. So I hope in future experience they will do the same as USA and Russia and other countries reach space.

[Assistant] So I guess since your town was on the border and you had ties to both countries, you kind of bring them together by your space flight then?

[User] Yes. But, you know, many years ago, about 70, maybe 80 years ago, it was one country, Tukistan. It was not Uzbekstan, Kirgizstan, Kazakhstan, Molodechnostan, Romania. It was one country, Tukistan. So after the revolution, it was necessary to make different states as in USA states and grow up five countries in Middle Asia, Uzbekestan, Kirgizstan, Kazahkstan, Molodechnostan, and Romanistan. My flight, of course, do some things during two countries -- two or three, maybe. I was born in Kirgizstan, nationality Uzbek and I'm a Russian citizen.

[Assistant] Interesting. The Question No. 3 here says: When did you decide to apply for the cosmonaut training program? How did that come about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. Uzbekstan and Kirgizstan became a freedom countries. So now each country has some difficulties with financing. So now they can't -- my thought here, they couldn't make something -- I mean, payload. So I hope in future experience they will do the same as USA and Russia and other countries reach space.

[Assistant] So I guess since your town was on the border and you had ties to both countries, you kind of bring them together by your space flight then?

[User] Yes. But, you know, many years ago, about 70, maybe 80 years ago, it was one country, Tukistan. It was not Uzbekstan, Kirgizstan, Kazakhstan, Molodechnostan, Romania. It was one country, Tukistan. So after the revolution, it was necessary to make different states as in USA states and grow up five countries in Middle Asia, Uzbekestan, Kirgizstan, Kazahkstan, Molodechnostan, and Romanistan. My flight, of course, do some things during two countries -- two or three, maybe. I was born in Kirgizstan, nationality Uzbek and I'm a Russian citizen.

[Assistant] Interesting. The Question No. 3 here says: When did you decide to apply for the cosmonaut training program? How did that come about?

[User] You know, every child when he is at school, each child wants to make something special in life. The same, I wanted to become a cosmonaut in my childhood. So it was my dream, and I everything, first of all, to become a pilot military pilot. After that, I did my best to enter cosmonaut office in my position of space. I'm very happy that I came to Houston and had such a great flight with American colleagues.

[Assistant] The next question is somewhat related. You might have answered part of it. Explain the cosmonaut selection process, the educational requirements. You talked a little bit about the military flight experiment -- experience. I know you were a MiG-21 pilot. Did all that work together into how the selection process went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, every child when he is at school, each child wants to make something special in life. The same, I wanted to become a cosmonaut in my childhood. So it was my dream, and I everything, first of all, to become a pilot military pilot. After that, I did my best to enter cosmonaut office in my position of space. I'm very happy that I came to Houston and had such a great flight with American colleagues.

[Assistant] The next question is somewhat related. You might have answered part of it. Explain the cosmonaut selection process, the educational requirements. You talked a little bit about the military flight experiment -- experience. I know you were a MiG-21 pilot. Did all that work together into how the selection process went?

[User] Yes. First of all, selection process come from combat unit. We have a commission that selected pilots. They go in all combat units and they selected people that had the big experience of flying, very dedicated and, of course, very -- people who want to make -- work to become cosmonaut. Of course, we have several commissions. Of course, first of all, it's a medical commission. Of course, it's a test of your education, how you can work with -- you know, in space, equipment is very new and it's very devoted things. So it's best to check your dedication. And, of course, we have many other commissions that it's necessary to go through. It's a long process, and it usually takes about two years to enter the cosmonaut office.

[Assistant] This is kind of a personal question. What's your favorite airplane to fly?

[User] Of course, every plane. Of course.

[Assistant] You like all flying; no favorite planes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. First of all, selection process come from combat unit. We have a commission that selected pilots. They go in all combat units and they selected people that had the big experience of flying, very dedicated and, of course, very -- people who want to make -- work to become cosmonaut. Of course, we have several commissions. Of course, first of all, it's a medical commission. Of course, it's a test of your education, how you can work with -- you know, in space, equipment is very new and it's very devoted things. So it's best to check your dedication. And, of course, we have many other commissions that it's necessary to go through. It's a long process, and it usually takes about two years to enter the cosmonaut office.

[Assistant] This is kind of a personal question. What's your favorite airplane to fly?

[User] Of course, every plane. Of course.

[Assistant] You like all flying; no favorite planes?

[User] Yes. Of course, I fly L-39, T-38 and MiG-21. So I would say my favorite plane is that I wanted to fly MiG-29 and the T-27.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. The newest Russian airplane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Of course, I fly L-39, T-38 and MiG-21. So I would say my favorite plane is that I wanted to fly MiG-29 and the T-27.

[Assistant] Oh, yes. The newest Russian airplane?

[User] Yes. It's the best Russian airplane.

[Assistant] Very fast?

[User] Very --

[Assistant] Well, maybe not compared to space, but very fast in relation to how high you fly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It's the best Russian airplane.

[Assistant] Very fast?

[User] Very --

[Assistant] Well, maybe not compared to space, but very fast in relation to how high you fly.

[User] And I liked, of course, the T-38. Very nice plane. I've flown it several times. I liked it.

[Assistant] I've flown in the T-38. A very comfortable airplane.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very --

[Assistant] Well, maybe not compared to space, but very fast in relation to how high you fly.

[User] And I liked, of course, the T-38. Very nice plane. I've flown it several times. I liked it.

[Assistant] I've flown in the T-38. A very comfortable airplane.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about how the Space Shuttle -- the take-off was and the landing and kind of your experience, how you felt?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I liked, of course, the T-38. Very nice plane. I've flown it several times. I liked it.

[Assistant] I've flown in the T-38. A very comfortable airplane.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about how the Space Shuttle -- the take-off was and the landing and kind of your experience, how you felt?

[User] The launch was very great. I, of course, expected that it will be such way, but the real launch was so great. Of course, we worried some we will launch on time because launch day was -- there was a --

[Assistant] The weather was in question?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The launch was very great. I, of course, expected that it will be such way, but the real launch was so great. Of course, we worried some we will launch on time because launch day was -- there was a --

[Assistant] The weather was in question?

[User] Launch day was bad and the possibilities of the launch was 40 percent.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So we worried, first of all, about weather. And when it was time to launch, everything get clear. It was eventually launched on time. Of course, we were very happy and we did the launch -- we waited zero gravity. Of course, after the separation, the actual time when we felt zero gravity, it was great. I can't explain how it was because at that time I felt that I made my dream because...

[Assistant] You knew you were in space?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Launch day was bad and the possibilities of the launch was 40 percent.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So we worried, first of all, about weather. And when it was time to launch, everything get clear. It was eventually launched on time. Of course, we were very happy and we did the launch -- we waited zero gravity. Of course, after the separation, the actual time when we felt zero gravity, it was great. I can't explain how it was because at that time I felt that I made my dream because...

[Assistant] You knew you were in space?

[User] I worked a long time and I waited a long time to be in space. So I was very happy.

[Assistant] It would be a neat feeling. We looked at your bio. It talked about your map-making experience. Did that -- I'm probably going to pronounce this wrong -- chronography?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we worried, first of all, about weather. And when it was time to launch, everything get clear. It was eventually launched on time. Of course, we were very happy and we did the launch -- we waited zero gravity. Of course, after the separation, the actual time when we felt zero gravity, it was great. I can't explain how it was because at that time I felt that I made my dream because...

[Assistant] You knew you were in space?

[User] I worked a long time and I waited a long time to be in space. So I was very happy.

[Assistant] It would be a neat feeling. We looked at your bio. It talked about your map-making experience. Did that -- I'm probably going to pronounce this wrong -- chronography?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did that help you identify land masses when you were on orbit, seeing the elevation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I worked a long time and I waited a long time to be in space. So I was very happy.

[Assistant] It would be a neat feeling. We looked at your bio. It talked about your map-making experience. Did that -- I'm probably going to pronounce this wrong -- chronography?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did that help you identify land masses when you were on orbit, seeing the elevation?

[User] Of course, our daytime work time was planned. Every hour was planned by, you know, we have flight plan and we had jobs it was necessary to do. Of course, our flight was so short and we were just beginning to understand everything in space and to see earth to make -- to become -- we became -- we understand what's going wrong with us. Our flight was so short. And all of my chronography education, of course, helped me to observe to make pictures, to make video and to make our flight very successful.

[Assistant] You mentioned the pictures, that one of your assignments was to photograph the rendezvous and document it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did that help you identify land masses when you were on orbit, seeing the elevation?

[User] Of course, our daytime work time was planned. Every hour was planned by, you know, we have flight plan and we had jobs it was necessary to do. Of course, our flight was so short and we were just beginning to understand everything in space and to see earth to make -- to become -- we became -- we understand what's going wrong with us. Our flight was so short. And all of my chronography education, of course, helped me to observe to make pictures, to make video and to make our flight very successful.

[Assistant] You mentioned the pictures, that one of your assignments was to photograph the rendezvous and document it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you in one of the small Shuttle windows filming this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you in one of the small Shuttle windows filming this?

[User] Yes. I stayed behind our commander, Terry Wilcutt, and tried to make pictures because it was my job to make it. But during the rendezvous, I stayed in the "mid test" because it's a very important part of our flight. So it was necessary to Terry, it was necessary to control the Shuttle and make a document. So I tried to not interfere here because in flight test many people -- you know, we, of course, can --

[Assistant] Very crowded?

[User] Crowded, yes. We can make pictures during the on-looking.

[Assistant] Did you have to turn upside down and stay to the ceiling while he was --


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I stayed behind our commander, Terry Wilcutt, and tried to make pictures because it was my job to make it. But during the rendezvous, I stayed in the "mid test" because it's a very important part of our flight. So it was necessary to Terry, it was necessary to control the Shuttle and make a document. So I tried to not interfere here because in flight test many people -- you know, we, of course, can --

[Assistant] Very crowded?

[User] Crowded, yes. We can make pictures during the on-looking.

[Assistant] Did you have to turn upside down and stay to the ceiling while he was --

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] -- at the controls?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Crowded, yes. We can make pictures during the on-looking.

[Assistant] Did you have to turn upside down and stay to the ceiling while he was --

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] -- at the controls?

[User] I did pictures during the onlooking where I fly around.

[Assistant] Some of the other experiments that -- I see you worked with the transferring of frozen storage and then the station dosimeter exchange on the Mir?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] -- at the controls?

[User] I did pictures during the onlooking where I fly around.

[Assistant] Some of the other experiments that -- I see you worked with the transferring of frozen storage and then the station dosimeter exchange on the Mir?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did those operations go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did pictures during the onlooking where I fly around.

[Assistant] Some of the other experiments that -- I see you worked with the transferring of frozen storage and then the station dosimeter exchange on the Mir?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did those operations go?

[User] It was very easy because we trained many times in a simulator and I had very experienced instructors that taught me. It was very easy to make the job and it was very pleasant to make the job because, you know, everything that you did -- that I did in space, it will stay in my memory a long time.

[Assistant] Since you talked a little bit about this, how was the training at the Johnson Space Center here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did those operations go?

[User] It was very easy because we trained many times in a simulator and I had very experienced instructors that taught me. It was very easy to make the job and it was very pleasant to make the job because, you know, everything that you did -- that I did in space, it will stay in my memory a long time.

[Assistant] Since you talked a little bit about this, how was the training at the Johnson Space Center here?

[User] When I came to Houston, of course, I can't understand at that time English, and my English was not so good. Of course --

[Assistant] It's very good now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was very easy because we trained many times in a simulator and I had very experienced instructors that taught me. It was very easy to make the job and it was very pleasant to make the job because, you know, everything that you did -- that I did in space, it will stay in my memory a long time.

[Assistant] Since you talked a little bit about this, how was the training at the Johnson Space Center here?

[User] When I came to Houston, of course, I can't understand at that time English, and my English was not so good. Of course --

[Assistant] It's very good now.

[User] I don't think so. Our training process is some different than American training process. So I had some problems. I tried -- it was necessary to learn everything for myself most of the time and to make -- have training with crew. I started learned everything for myself. And I want to say big thanks to our crew members because they helped me to get into the program and understand everything, understand everything. Mostly all my language, my training is connected with our crew, because without the crew, I would be nothing. In our crew is so nice colleagues. I have so nice colleagues and they worked for me.

[Assistant] I know Bonnie Dunbar was there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I came to Houston, of course, I can't understand at that time English, and my English was not so good. Of course --

[Assistant] It's very good now.

[User] I don't think so. Our training process is some different than American training process. So I had some problems. I tried -- it was necessary to learn everything for myself most of the time and to make -- have training with crew. I started learned everything for myself. And I want to say big thanks to our crew members because they helped me to get into the program and understand everything, understand everything. Mostly all my language, my training is connected with our crew, because without the crew, I would be nothing. In our crew is so nice colleagues. I have so nice colleagues and they worked for me.

[Assistant] I know Bonnie Dunbar was there.

[User] Bonnie Dunbar, Terry Wilcutt, Joe Edwards, Jim Reilly, Mike Anderson.

[Assistant] And I guess Andy Thomas and Bonnie Dunbar had both trained in Gagarin Space Center in Moscow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think so. Our training process is some different than American training process. So I had some problems. I tried -- it was necessary to learn everything for myself most of the time and to make -- have training with crew. I started learned everything for myself. And I want to say big thanks to our crew members because they helped me to get into the program and understand everything, understand everything. Mostly all my language, my training is connected with our crew, because without the crew, I would be nothing. In our crew is so nice colleagues. I have so nice colleagues and they worked for me.

[Assistant] I know Bonnie Dunbar was there.

[User] Bonnie Dunbar, Terry Wilcutt, Joe Edwards, Jim Reilly, Mike Anderson.

[Assistant] And I guess Andy Thomas and Bonnie Dunbar had both trained in Gagarin Space Center in Moscow?

[User] Yes. Bonnie, she speaks very well in Russian, and all the time she helped me. It was very pleasant to work with Bonnie Dunbar.

[Assistant] Just a follow-on question to that is, how was the training at the Kennedy Space Center, the Shuttle escape type training or anything like that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bonnie Dunbar, Terry Wilcutt, Joe Edwards, Jim Reilly, Mike Anderson.

[Assistant] And I guess Andy Thomas and Bonnie Dunbar had both trained in Gagarin Space Center in Moscow?

[User] Yes. Bonnie, she speaks very well in Russian, and all the time she helped me. It was very pleasant to work with Bonnie Dunbar.

[Assistant] Just a follow-on question to that is, how was the training at the Kennedy Space Center, the Shuttle escape type training or anything like that?

[User] It was unforgettable for me because it was great to see everything in Florida in the KSC. We trained several times in the KSC and, of course, even the OR crew. Before we went there, we had training in Houston. Of course, it was very easy. And the instructors, they helped a lot. They showed everything. They made sure that everything will be great with such instructors, with such training because I don't -- it was great, great training. KSC and JSC I liked.

[Assistant] The next question I think you've almost answered by how well you've done the interview. Was the difference in language a hard problem for you to overcome? It seems like you've already overcome that. But go ahead and answer how you did that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Bonnie, she speaks very well in Russian, and all the time she helped me. It was very pleasant to work with Bonnie Dunbar.

[Assistant] Just a follow-on question to that is, how was the training at the Kennedy Space Center, the Shuttle escape type training or anything like that?

[User] It was unforgettable for me because it was great to see everything in Florida in the KSC. We trained several times in the KSC and, of course, even the OR crew. Before we went there, we had training in Houston. Of course, it was very easy. And the instructors, they helped a lot. They showed everything. They made sure that everything will be great with such instructors, with such training because I don't -- it was great, great training. KSC and JSC I liked.

[Assistant] The next question I think you've almost answered by how well you've done the interview. Was the difference in language a hard problem for you to overcome? It seems like you've already overcome that. But go ahead and answer how you did that.

[User] Of course, my staying was a problem because I learned English not so long time. I have base of grammar and, of course, practice in USA, the USA in trying to speak everything English and brush up my English very well. The second part, I begin to understand -- I began to understand everything and speak English more clear. I think that practice was very big helper, helper to my training that went into our crew. Of course, I think the crew helped me a lot because I met many difficulties in training, and our crew at times with great pleasure helped me with anything I asked of them.

[Assistant] It's important that the crew works as a team. It sounds like your crew is very close-knit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was unforgettable for me because it was great to see everything in Florida in the KSC. We trained several times in the KSC and, of course, even the OR crew. Before we went there, we had training in Houston. Of course, it was very easy. And the instructors, they helped a lot. They showed everything. They made sure that everything will be great with such instructors, with such training because I don't -- it was great, great training. KSC and JSC I liked.

[Assistant] The next question I think you've almost answered by how well you've done the interview. Was the difference in language a hard problem for you to overcome? It seems like you've already overcome that. But go ahead and answer how you did that.

[User] Of course, my staying was a problem because I learned English not so long time. I have base of grammar and, of course, practice in USA, the USA in trying to speak everything English and brush up my English very well. The second part, I begin to understand -- I began to understand everything and speak English more clear. I think that practice was very big helper, helper to my training that went into our crew. Of course, I think the crew helped me a lot because I met many difficulties in training, and our crew at times with great pleasure helped me with anything I asked of them.

[Assistant] It's important that the crew works as a team. It sounds like your crew is very close-knit.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Another Shuttle question is, how did the Shuttle launch and re-entry suit fit? Was it comfortable? Was it bulky?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, my staying was a problem because I learned English not so long time. I have base of grammar and, of course, practice in USA, the USA in trying to speak everything English and brush up my English very well. The second part, I begin to understand -- I began to understand everything and speak English more clear. I think that practice was very big helper, helper to my training that went into our crew. Of course, I think the crew helped me a lot because I met many difficulties in training, and our crew at times with great pleasure helped me with anything I asked of them.

[Assistant] It's important that the crew works as a team. It sounds like your crew is very close-knit.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Another Shuttle question is, how did the Shuttle launch and re-entry suit fit? Was it comfortable? Was it bulky?

[User] Of course, if I say about suit, of course, it suits me and it was necessary to wear. It's law. But I felt very comfortable. Of course, we have different suits in Russia than USA. I think that it's a nice suit and it help in "demonstration." So I like -- I felt comfortable.

[Assistant] Did you get to go up on the KC135 and do any training, putting your suit on and off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Another Shuttle question is, how did the Shuttle launch and re-entry suit fit? Was it comfortable? Was it bulky?

[User] Of course, if I say about suit, of course, it suits me and it was necessary to wear. It's law. But I felt very comfortable. Of course, we have different suits in Russia than USA. I think that it's a nice suit and it help in "demonstration." So I like -- I felt comfortable.

[Assistant] Did you get to go up on the KC135 and do any training, putting your suit on and off?

[User] Yes. We trained on many times to wear it on, off and get used to -- used to the space suit. It was very easy and I did it with great pleasure.

[Assistant] It looked difficult on the flights how to get it on and off. So I was just curious if it was like that in orbit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, if I say about suit, of course, it suits me and it was necessary to wear. It's law. But I felt very comfortable. Of course, we have different suits in Russia than USA. I think that it's a nice suit and it help in "demonstration." So I like -- I felt comfortable.

[Assistant] Did you get to go up on the KC135 and do any training, putting your suit on and off?

[User] Yes. We trained on many times to wear it on, off and get used to -- used to the space suit. It was very easy and I did it with great pleasure.

[Assistant] It looked difficult on the flights how to get it on and off. So I was just curious if it was like that in orbit.

[User] On orbit, we helped each other to take off and take on.

[Assistant] Okay. You-all helped each other then. That's very important. Okay. The next question is, what was it like to see the Mir for the first time out the Shuttle window?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. We trained on many times to wear it on, off and get used to -- used to the space suit. It was very easy and I did it with great pleasure.

[Assistant] It looked difficult on the flights how to get it on and off. So I was just curious if it was like that in orbit.

[User] On orbit, we helped each other to take off and take on.

[Assistant] Okay. You-all helped each other then. That's very important. Okay. The next question is, what was it like to see the Mir for the first time out the Shuttle window?

[User] Of course. Of course, it was my dream to see Mir Station, real Mir Station in space. I've been trained for seven years and I studied a lot about Mir Station and trained long, a lot. Of course, it was great to see Mir Station from long distance. It was so beautiful view and we saw Mir Station about more than ten miles. It was a little point. We got closer and closer and the station get bigger, bigger with the flow terminator. Sunset, after the sun set, it become as a star. It was so big star. It's unforgettable. It's so beautiful. I never forget this view. Of course, the writing document to see Mir Station closer, it was our job. And you have to -- you had to go see Mir Station.

[Assistant] The next question is about after the docking. How exciting was the reunion of your fellow cosmonauts after you docked and how hard was it to leave them after such a short visit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Between out work on earth, we made sure before flight that everything will resolve any problem. And our work in space was a pleasure. We did everything so easy. So understandable was everything. Mir Station crew helped us. Jim Reilly is the person responsible for everything that we transferred. He checked everything and he controlled us to do everything, to make transfers. He worked with Pavel Vinogradov and with me. We do it -- did it with great pleasure.

[Assistant] I think you talked about this a little bit, too, but I'll ask it again. Are you looking forward to visiting the Mir, the International Space Station, in the future either on the Space Shuttle or the Soyuz?

[User] Yes, because this mission was so short for me and I am waiting next flight. I've assigned to pick up crew to the Mir Station. I will begin training in autumn this year. Of course, it's my job, it's my profession. I have to fly and work, of course, with my colleagues from USA and from other countries.

[Assistant] That's a long flight --

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] -- from the ground on commercial airline. What was your most memorable story or experience about your Space Shuttle flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, because this mission was so short for me and I am waiting next flight. I've assigned to pick up crew to the Mir Station. I will begin training in autumn this year. Of course, it's my job, it's my profession. I have to fly and work, of course, with my colleagues from USA and from other countries.

[Assistant] That's a long flight --

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] -- from the ground on commercial airline. What was your most memorable story or experience about your Space Shuttle flight?

[User] Of course, our flight was so beautiful and unforgettable. Every minute of staying on the Shuttle and station was unforgettable for me. Every minute I remember. All flight time is good story for me. I remember every minute what we did there, how it was. I can't choose something from our -- something main from our flight. Our flight from launch to landing was great and extraordinary for me. It's a big memory, each member, our crew members, how it was and how it was beautiful to work together.

[Assistant] Good. That's special. What did you miss the most while you were away from your home land?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] -- from the ground on commercial airline. What was your most memorable story or experience about your Space Shuttle flight?

[User] Of course, our flight was so beautiful and unforgettable. Every minute of staying on the Shuttle and station was unforgettable for me. Every minute I remember. All flight time is good story for me. I remember every minute what we did there, how it was. I can't choose something from our -- something main from our flight. Our flight from launch to landing was great and extraordinary for me. It's a big memory, each member, our crew members, how it was and how it was beautiful to work together.

[Assistant] Good. That's special. What did you miss the most while you were away from your home land?

[User] Of course, I have many friends here and I get used to work with my American colleagues. I like Houston. It was great training for me, a great experience in my life. Of course, always home is best. So I miss my children because they didn't come to Houston. My wife came and stayed in Houston two months. I didn't see my daughter and son for seven months, and I'm waiting to see them.

[Assistant] That's a long time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, our flight was so beautiful and unforgettable. Every minute of staying on the Shuttle and station was unforgettable for me. Every minute I remember. All flight time is good story for me. I remember every minute what we did there, how it was. I can't choose something from our -- something main from our flight. Our flight from launch to landing was great and extraordinary for me. It's a big memory, each member, our crew members, how it was and how it was beautiful to work together.

[Assistant] Good. That's special. What did you miss the most while you were away from your home land?

[User] Of course, I have many friends here and I get used to work with my American colleagues. I like Houston. It was great training for me, a great experience in my life. Of course, always home is best. So I miss my children because they didn't come to Houston. My wife came and stayed in Houston two months. I didn't see my daughter and son for seven months, and I'm waiting to see them.

[Assistant] That's a long time.

[User] The day after tomorrow. I'm leaving tomorrow.

[Assistant] Well, is there -- that's all the formal questions I had. Is there anything that you wanted to add or ask, you know, the camera or the people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, I have many friends here and I get used to work with my American colleagues. I like Houston. It was great training for me, a great experience in my life. Of course, always home is best. So I miss my children because they didn't come to Houston. My wife came and stayed in Houston two months. I didn't see my daughter and son for seven months, and I'm waiting to see them.

[Assistant] That's a long time.

[User] The day after tomorrow. I'm leaving tomorrow.

[Assistant] Well, is there -- that's all the formal questions I had. Is there anything that you wanted to add or ask, you know, the camera or the people?

[User] I would say that my training in Houston is a big experience in my life. I made many friends. It was a pleasure to stay in Houston and training. I met very experienced instructors, very good people that they helped me to make my flight very successful, and I appreciate everybody who worked with me. So thank you everybody for training me and helping to become such as I am now.

[Assistant] We enjoyed having you by and having you in this country here. You're a very special person, and we appreciate you doing this interview for us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The day after tomorrow. I'm leaving tomorrow.

[Assistant] Well, is there -- that's all the formal questions I had. Is there anything that you wanted to add or ask, you know, the camera or the people?

[User] I would say that my training in Houston is a big experience in my life. I made many friends. It was a pleasure to stay in Houston and training. I met very experienced instructors, very good people that they helped me to make my flight very successful, and I appreciate everybody who worked with me. So thank you everybody for training me and helping to become such as I am now.

[Assistant] We enjoyed having you by and having you in this country here. You're a very special person, and we appreciate you doing this interview for us.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] We'll remember this just as much as you remember your flight, I'm sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The function was the same. The systems were different. You still had flight dynamics. You still had Retrofire Officers, Flight Director, surgeon, the network guy. Now, but because the Skylab systems were a little different, they called them something different, but essentially you’re still—and there was a Command Module up there, so there they essentially—it was sort of dormant, and they would tell this position, “Okay, you’re responsible for the—.” There were only three measurements in which if they [the measurements] do this, then call somebody.\n\n Or they probably had somebody there with the experience, anyway, like Gary [E.] Coen or somebody like that, that had come off the command module team. All these Flight Controllers, where they come from, they came from the guys who had done Apollo. There were very few just brand-new people in it, and hardly anybody just plain off the street, except there were probably some contractors that had come in that were Skylab-unique. And then there was [NASA] Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], and the data was shipped to Marshall, too, and so they had land lines, and you’d communicate with them as well.

[Assistant] Since you mentioned that you did come in a little later and you weren’t as involved in the—

[User] The original planning itself.

[Assistant] —maybe the handbooks and the mission rules.

[User] No, I was not [involved in the development of Skylab handbooks and mission rules].

[Assistant] Were you involved, since you came in later, with SMEAT [Skylab Medical Experiments Altitude Test] at all, or were you aware of what was going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The original planning itself.

[Assistant] —maybe the handbooks and the mission rules.

[User] No, I was not [involved in the development of Skylab handbooks and mission rules].

[Assistant] Were you involved, since you came in later, with SMEAT [Skylab Medical Experiments Altitude Test] at all, or were you aware of what was going on?

[User] SMEAT was the device that the biomeds use in their preflight training. There was apparently a 45-day SMEAT test, which was just like being on orbit, but that was before I came in, so that was over with by the time I got there. I think Bob [Robert L.] Crippen and the doctor, [William E.] Thornton were involved in that. The other [FCT] guys, John [T.] Cox and Bob [Robert H.] Heselmeyer and Bob [Robert] White and Lou [Louis A.] DeLuca, they were the other biomeds, and they were involved in that SMEAT testing. But, yes, it would have been very helpful to have been involved in that, in terms of being very familiar, having it internalized before you go into the flight. Without that it’s sort of top level, and you have to refer to the books or something like that more often if you haven’t internalized it.

[Assistant] After Skylab you were appointed to the Mechanical and Support Systems Section.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I think somewhere in there I was a section head, and then Don Puddy was Systems Division Chief, and I came down to be his Technical Assistant. That was a fun job. I really enjoyed that. Somewhere in there I think he sent me off to—NASA has what they call a Management Education Program, which is a two-week session at [NASA] Wallops [Flight Facility, Wallops Island, Virginia], and he sent me off to that, which was really a very good experience for me at the time.\n\n Afterwards I came back and, like I said, I really enjoyed being Technical Assistant, because I signed off on mission rules for the division, reviewed them and sent them on to that board. For the Crew Procedures Control Board, I reviewed all the procedures, Form 482 procedures that we submitted, and I was on that board and went to all the PRCBs [Program Requirements Control Board]. It was a lot of fun, a technical kind of thing. I didn’t get to do console, except as SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis] or something like that. But it was a broadening experience.\n\n Then I was selected as Branch Chief of one of the branches.

[Assistant] Were you in that position as a Technical Assistant during the\n\n Challenger\n\n time period?

[User] No, I was a Branch Chief.

[Assistant] Oh, you were already a Branch Chief then.

[User] I had gone down to be Branch Chief of the Data Processing Systems Branch, which is the INCOs and DPS [Data Processing Systems] guys and Spacelab computer guys.

[Assistant] Where were you when the accident happened, the launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I led the Mishap Investigation Board for an incident that happened out in Building 350, I think it was they [Engineering] were doing a fuel cell test and were wrapping up the test. It [fuel cell] caught on fire, something like that. So Mr. Abbey wanted it looked into. He called it a mishap, so I got nominated to go lead that team, which I did, which was a great experience, as it turned out, for me.

[Assistant] After that period of time and then after you were the chief of the simulator, you went in 2001 as Chief of Advanced Operations and Development Division.

[User] That was the division we formed.

[Assistant] That was the one you formed from that.

[User] From the Simulator Development and from the current MCC, which George [W.] Bull was head of, and another one, which was Advanced Projects or something like that. Those three divisions were merged into one, and then I ended up with two branches and an office, because I knew the training facility was going to be turned over to another organization. So I just made that as an office, because it was easier to abolish an office than it was to abolish a branch. It turns out it’s not that much different, but I thought it made sense at the time.

[Assistant] Were you involved with the upgrade of the Mission Control Center during that time in 2001?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was the division we formed.

[Assistant] That was the one you formed from that.

[User] From the Simulator Development and from the current MCC, which George [W.] Bull was head of, and another one, which was Advanced Projects or something like that. Those three divisions were merged into one, and then I ended up with two branches and an office, because I knew the training facility was going to be turned over to another organization. So I just made that as an office, because it was easier to abolish an office than it was to abolish a branch. It turns out it’s not that much different, but I thought it made sense at the time.

[Assistant] Were you involved with the upgrade of the Mission Control Center during that time in 2001?

[User] Upgrade. A big upgrade—

[Assistant] With the Compaq workstations. We found a press release.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Where were you when that happened?

[User] I was running the Control Center environment. What I did at the time it went down is just thought, “Well, we’ve still got Station up there, so we can’t just let everything stop.” When\n\n Challenger\n\n happened, everything [in the MCC] stopped. You freeze everything and just wait until somebody—well, we couldn’t do that, because we were supporting Station, so we had another operation ongoing.\n\n We had to isolate what we needed [for the investigation], because under the ground rules certain things have to be frozen. So the documentation on console at the time, that’s boxed up and kept under somebody’s oversight. You can get it out, but you have to sign for it. It’s like forensic evidence.\n\n Then [as time goes by] you have a Return-to-Flight environment where you’ve got the program, Shuttle Program, “We want a new this. We want that. We have a new MER [Mission Evaluation Room] concept, and we want this and we want this.” So we had to build all of that in there [the MCC environment] while we’re doing an ongoing operation and not disrupt the one with the other.\n\n So that was what I was doing just trying to keep the shop going, and while all this other stuff is going on around us, and try to not get hung up too much. I went to the Center [management] to say, “We need to release this because of this reason, that reason. We can’t keep the software frozen because of this reason or that reason. So we need an approval,” and I went through the rationale as to why that was okay.

[Assistant] When did you retire?

[User] January of 2006.

[Assistant] What led to your retirement at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The astronauts were over there all along. The astronauts would participate in the testing. When they had a problem, believe me, we would listen to what they had to say, and address those concerns. They were very conscientious people.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about or give an example of some of those simulations that you would run over in the SAIL?

[User] The SAIL was not really a simulation, it was testing the real flight software that was going to fly. As new software would come out, we would test that new software to see if we could find any problems, which we certainly did. We went on through that testing. Then also we would be online when a mission was going to fly. We were there with the flight software loaded. If they had any problems, we would be there to help resolve it, because we had the same software running that they had on the computer.\n\n I remember one time Cliff had me go up to brief Chris Kraft. I got up to give the presentation, and I was talking about the different software for the Orbiter. He was sitting there looking down, and I didn’t know if he was listening or not. I was talking about the automation of the cryo [cryogenic] detanking process. When I finished, he said, “Cliff, that’s interesting. How long is it going to take us to get that ready to go?” Cliff sat forward and said, “Well, we’ve used it for the last three missions.” Mr. Kraft seemed surprised.

[Assistant] Was the SAIL or the Avionics Systems Lab supporting real-time missions?

[User] It was running and online when the mission was going. If there were any problems, we were able to jump in and sort them out.

[Assistant] Were you ever called on to solve any problems when the Shuttle was in orbit?