[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the biggest challenge was to keep going twenty-two years, keep going and get ready for those three flights. Normally I should have had four, but only three.\n\n And maybe the biggest—what?

[Assistant] Accomplishment.

[User] —Accomplishment is to have been starting on this Russian stuff, Soviet stuff, go through all of that, also with the Buran stuff, and finish as a U.S NASA astronaut, a strange road.

[Assistant] It’s certainly a very unique one.

[User] A funny one.

[Assistant] Well, we appreciate you sharing all of these experiences with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK. Ifyou have any questions for me, just interrupt, and I'll answer them as best I can.

[Assistant] OK. Try to forget that you're being taped, but it's difficult to do. The first question is, how did your graduate study lead to your work at the National Archives?

[User] Actually, it was probably more of a personal connection than academic. I went to graduate school with a friend and colleague at Florida State University who subsequently began to work at the National Archives before I did, in the Agricultural Branch. And I was staying with him as I was doing dissertation research. And I would do my research in the research room, and ofcourse he would be at his job. One afternoon we were together, obviously, as I was staying at his place, and he said that there was a fellowship opening at the National Historic Publications Commission, which is now the National Historic Publications and Records Commission, and that maybe I'd better consider applying for it, but I'd better apply for it quick, because there was only about a week before it closed. So I did, and actually I was selected to work as an NHPC Fellow with the papers of Jefferson Davis at Rice University in Houston. And so that's how I really got connected with the National Archives; although I had done research there, I had not initially considered working here, because in those days the academic emphasis was on teaching, to get your doctoral degree, and then to go into teaching at the college or university level.

[Assistant] Was this fellowship a limited-term fellowship?

[User] It was a one-year fellowship. I worked at Rice University on the Jeff Davis papers for a year.

[Assistant] Alright. What brought you up here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a one-year fellowship. I worked at Rice University on the Jeff Davis papers for a year.

[Assistant] Alright. What brought you up here?

[User] I'm from this area. I was born and raised here. When the Davis project ended- it was not renewable--! just came back to visit friends and visit family and see what I could find in terms of employment. As it turned out, the Davis project needed a researcher here, so I had a joint appointment between the Jefferson Davis papers here as their researcher in Washington and also with the Ulysses S. Grant papers, which was based in Carbondale, Illinois, at Southern Illinois University. So I in fact worked for the two opposing sides in the Civil War at the same time that I was looking for a job. And subsequent to that I worked with the Woodrow Wilson papers, so I consider myself to be like the man on the flying trapeze, where you get to the extension and then you grab on to the next ring. Then when I applied at the Archives, and at that particular point it wasn't in terms ofa particular job, then in 1977 I got an interview with the General Archives Division, with Dan Goggin [?], who was the director at that time, and he hired me. And so I began working in August of 1977 at Suitland in the General Archives Division.

[Assistant] Had you been looking for an academic job?

[User] Not actively at the time, because I had not finished my dissertation.

[Assistant] So that took precedence over anything else ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm from this area. I was born and raised here. When the Davis project ended- it was not renewable--! just came back to visit friends and visit family and see what I could find in terms of employment. As it turned out, the Davis project needed a researcher here, so I had a joint appointment between the Jefferson Davis papers here as their researcher in Washington and also with the Ulysses S. Grant papers, which was based in Carbondale, Illinois, at Southern Illinois University. So I in fact worked for the two opposing sides in the Civil War at the same time that I was looking for a job. And subsequent to that I worked with the Woodrow Wilson papers, so I consider myself to be like the man on the flying trapeze, where you get to the extension and then you grab on to the next ring. Then when I applied at the Archives, and at that particular point it wasn't in terms ofa particular job, then in 1977 I got an interview with the General Archives Division, with Dan Goggin [?], who was the director at that time, and he hired me. And so I began working in August of 1977 at Suitland in the General Archives Division.

[Assistant] Had you been looking for an academic job?

[User] Not actively at the time, because I had not finished my dissertation.

[Assistant] So that took precedence over anything else ...

[User] Right. I was trying to finish that up. I got my degree, actually, in 1976; I had worked on it while I was at Rice. But the Ph.D. was then assumed to be, at least where I was working, to be a precursor to going out and looking for a job.

[Assistant] The second part ofthese background and early career questions have to do with your Army experience. I know you were in the Army for a while, and a lot ofthe records that we deal with here at the National Archives.are military records; did any of your Army experience contribute to your later career at the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. They did, but we still got transfers; I don't want to say that we got nothing, but it has raised the agencies', and in particular the agency records officers' sensitivity to the fact that these things happen every year now.

[Assistant] What was the driving force behind implementing that yearly transfer/

[User] The driving force behind it was basically the fact that the records center was going to a reimbursable basis.

[Assistant] Ah, right.

[User] That agencies were going to be charged for storing their records in a records center. For a long time the emphasis in the records center program as I remember it was the fact that they could get records out oftheir own agency space into low-cost space. The cost was not on their part, basically, it was on the Archives' part that ran the system. But with the reimbursable system implementation earlier in the century, at the tum of the century, they began to charge agencies for that service. And so, many agencies felt that they needed to transfer their records in order tci avoid charges.

[Assistant] So if they are permanent records, get them out ofthe records center, and don't pay for them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The driving force behind it was basically the fact that the records center was going to a reimbursable basis.

[Assistant] Ah, right.

[User] That agencies were going to be charged for storing their records in a records center. For a long time the emphasis in the records center program as I remember it was the fact that they could get records out oftheir own agency space into low-cost space. The cost was not on their part, basically, it was on the Archives' part that ran the system. But with the reimbursable system implementation earlier in the century, at the tum of the century, they began to charge agencies for that service. And so, many agencies felt that they needed to transfer their records in order tci avoid charges.

[Assistant] So if they are permanent records, get them out ofthe records center, and don't pay for them.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What was your role in establishing, or developing, or formalizing, these accessioning procedures?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That agencies were going to be charged for storing their records in a records center. For a long time the emphasis in the records center program as I remember it was the fact that they could get records out oftheir own agency space into low-cost space. The cost was not on their part, basically, it was on the Archives' part that ran the system. But with the reimbursable system implementation earlier in the century, at the tum of the century, they began to charge agencies for that service. And so, many agencies felt that they needed to transfer their records in order tci avoid charges.

[Assistant] So if they are permanent records, get them out ofthe records center, and don't pay for them.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What was your role in establishing, or developing, or formalizing, these accessioning procedures?

[User] I was involved with the Business Process Reengineering that set this up; I was also involved with what was called the WNRC End ofthe Century Project, which was to go through the material that was scheduled as permanent and to look at the records to see if they really were permanent. We found a large number of records that were mis- scheduled, that were simply not described properly, that when you took a look at them in the center itself you found they really were not what they said they were and that they should be rescheduled under something else. It goes, I think, in part in the sense that people would send records to the record center, and although they would remain under their legal control, it was kind oflike an out-of-sight, out-of-mind kind ofthing. Agencies were not interested in retiring, or accessioning, records, because they had no real incentive to. As long as they remained under their legal control, then were basically paying for the space out ofour own budget, de facto, then they had no incentive to transfer.

[Assistant] Has that kind of attitude gone away over the last several years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What was your role in establishing, or developing, or formalizing, these accessioning procedures?

[User] I was involved with the Business Process Reengineering that set this up; I was also involved with what was called the WNRC End ofthe Century Project, which was to go through the material that was scheduled as permanent and to look at the records to see if they really were permanent. We found a large number of records that were mis- scheduled, that were simply not described properly, that when you took a look at them in the center itself you found they really were not what they said they were and that they should be rescheduled under something else. It goes, I think, in part in the sense that people would send records to the record center, and although they would remain under their legal control, it was kind oflike an out-of-sight, out-of-mind kind ofthing. Agencies were not interested in retiring, or accessioning, records, because they had no real incentive to. As long as they remained under their legal control, then were basically paying for the space out ofour own budget, de facto, then they had no incentive to transfer.

[Assistant] Has that kind of attitude gone away over the last several years?

[User] I think it has moderated considerably. It is really up to the agency now as to whether they want to pay the money to store their records. If they want to pay the money to store the records, then that's what they'll do. But budgets run so many things these days, that it takes a real incentive for them to keep the records there.

[Assistant] What kind of relationships have you developed with agency records officers, and how valuable are those relationships?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my career I have had a number of agencies that I have worked with; the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is the most outstanding one I can remember and is the longest ofthe ones that I have had. But I have also developed some relationships based on teaching records disposition schedules when I was in the records appraisal branch. It is valuable to a certain point. You get to know your records officer, and in that case the personal aspect really does smooth the way. You can call on them to ask them questions; in some areas you can call on them ifyou need something, and the personal aspect makes it a little bit better in.terms of getting what it is you need at the moment. And on the other hand, they do the same thing. There have been many cases in which I develop a [Standard Form] 258 for agency records officers, because I've done it, it's more convenient, I can do it and get it to them. That helps them; at least that's one example. In the end, though, I think you have to remember that when you are dealing with agency records officers, that, they do not work for NARA, they work for the agency that pays them. So, you have to be careful, because they will not do anything that they consider to be a detriment, or that their agency doesn't want to do. So you can be very cooperative among small things, but ifyou want a major records collection transferred that they don't want to transfer, they won't do it.

[Assistant] So there are limits to that relationship ...

[User] There are limits to that relationship. But in general, I would say that 70 to 80 percent ofthe time it works pretty well.

[Assistant] Can you give examples ofrelationships that are negative; where you have a bad working relationship with an agency?

[User] Yes. There are relationships where due to some sort ofmisunderstahding, or due to some sort ofthing that happened long ago, they have a bad view of the National Archives.

[Assistant] Can you think ofany examples?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There are limits to that relationship. But in general, I would say that 70 to 80 percent ofthe time it works pretty well.

[Assistant] Can you give examples ofrelationships that are negative; where you have a bad working relationship with an agency?

[User] Yes. There are relationships where due to some sort ofmisunderstahding, or due to some sort ofthing that happened long ago, they have a bad view of the National Archives.

[Assistant] Can you think ofany examples?

[User] Yes, I can. We had a records transfer of the Apollo 204 fire investigation, which included some photographs of the three men, the autopsy protocols, and things like that. NASA transferred them to us. We screened them very, very carefully, because there were personal privacy issues involved, and generally speaking you don't want that kind ofinformation splashed over the newspaper pages for the public. But we did release to a researcher portions ofphotographs containing just the space suits themselves, not the people in them, and not the bodies, but just the space suits. The agency was very, very upset over that, but we had judged that to be pictures of equipment, and we could not restrict it under the Freedom oflnfonnation Act, under the restrictions there. Their attitude and their reasoning was that to see the space suits would be able to visualize the bodies. And so, that was a very, very sore point and it went all the way up, at the time, to the Acting Archivist.

[Assistant] Did that affect future records transfers at all? Did they hold records back because ofthis?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There are relationships where due to some sort ofmisunderstahding, or due to some sort ofthing that happened long ago, they have a bad view of the National Archives.

[Assistant] Can you think ofany examples?

[User] Yes, I can. We had a records transfer of the Apollo 204 fire investigation, which included some photographs of the three men, the autopsy protocols, and things like that. NASA transferred them to us. We screened them very, very carefully, because there were personal privacy issues involved, and generally speaking you don't want that kind ofinformation splashed over the newspaper pages for the public. But we did release to a researcher portions ofphotographs containing just the space suits themselves, not the people in them, and not the bodies, but just the space suits. The agency was very, very upset over that, but we had judged that to be pictures of equipment, and we could not restrict it under the Freedom oflnfonnation Act, under the restrictions there. Their attitude and their reasoning was that to see the space suits would be able to visualize the bodies. And so, that was a very, very sore point and it went all the way up, at the time, to the Acting Archivist.

[Assistant] Did that affect future records transfers at all? Did they hold records back because ofthis?

[User] I'm not sure whether they deliberately held records back, but they were reluctant to transfer. They were reluctant to deal with us in the same way afterwards.

[Assistant] What are the main challenges you have faced in records accessioning- you have mentioned some ofthem--and have these challenges shifted? Are they any different now than they were ten or fifteen years ago?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the Archives, like any other bureaucratic organization, when the change from the top occurs, there may be continuity or there may be change. People wait to see what is going to happen. I know there was a controversy when John Carlin first came on board. This was a man who did not have a background in what people considered to be the traditional academic scholarly training that was typical of Archivists roughly from the beginning when the National Archives was established. But I know personally I supported it, because particularly in terms ofability to pursue one's interests on Capitol Hill, which is where all largesse flows from, that Carlin as an ex-governor and a more politically connected person would be able to do that better. I hope that my justification on that was at least partially fulfilled. Now we have another Archivist, Dr. Weinstein, who is basically from more in the mold of the older, scholarly people; but I have no idea, one presumes that he also is working the political side ofthe fence as all ofthese officials should. The jury is still out on that, but it is a change that occurs with every Archivist. Mr. Carlin's big emphasis was on electronic records. Now Dr. Wienstein has said that he wants to continue with that. ..

[Assistant] There is no backing away now.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Would you recommend any changes in the organization ofthe National Archiyes? Ifyou had to reorganize NW, what would you do?

[User] [Pause] NW, when the organization came about, was an attempt to bring the lifecycle ofrecords into one organization. NWML for the records appraisal and scheduling part ofit, NWMD for initial processing and declassification, this kind of thing. I would personally like to see more inter-divisional activity between the two. I'm not sure exactly how that is done; you can mandate that it will happen, but the mandate will not necessarily ensure that it will happen. I would just like to see more use within the divisions ofthe expertise that various people have developed in terms ofareas in which they work.

[Assistant] Would that involve more involvement by processing archivists in reference work, or...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you remember what your paper was on?

[User] I didn't have to do a paper, because at that time ... .

[Assistant] Ah, excellent!

[User] By that time all ofthis had been hashed out. I do remember that there was a considerable amount of questioning on that. In the earlier days ofmy career, your archivists tended to be people from academia. Now you have people who are much more broadly rounded in things like information technology; you don't have to just be a historian or a political scientist to be an archivist anymore. Although certainly it helps.

[Assistant] It does help. The last of the formal questions is, is there anything else you would like to talk about that we have not covered that might be ofvalue for NARA staff to know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't have to do a paper, because at that time ... .

[Assistant] Ah, excellent!

[User] By that time all ofthis had been hashed out. I do remember that there was a considerable amount of questioning on that. In the earlier days ofmy career, your archivists tended to be people from academia. Now you have people who are much more broadly rounded in things like information technology; you don't have to just be a historian or a political scientist to be an archivist anymore. Although certainly it helps.

[Assistant] It does help. The last of the formal questions is, is there anything else you would like to talk about that we have not covered that might be ofvalue for NARA staff to know?

[User] Oh, I think that as an archivist and as a supervisor I think we have come a long way, but that we still have a long way to go. Particularly in terms of; well, some people believe that the management is horrible around here, that we are a bunch of hard-noses. Things have gotten a lot better in terms ofthe last years as far as the working environment is concerned. The Family and Medical Leave Act, credit time, that kind of thing would have been unheard of, or was unheard of when I started.

[Assistant] What was the work environment like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By that time all ofthis had been hashed out. I do remember that there was a considerable amount of questioning on that. In the earlier days ofmy career, your archivists tended to be people from academia. Now you have people who are much more broadly rounded in things like information technology; you don't have to just be a historian or a political scientist to be an archivist anymore. Although certainly it helps.

[Assistant] It does help. The last of the formal questions is, is there anything else you would like to talk about that we have not covered that might be ofvalue for NARA staff to know?

[User] Oh, I think that as an archivist and as a supervisor I think we have come a long way, but that we still have a long way to go. Particularly in terms of; well, some people believe that the management is horrible around here, that we are a bunch of hard-noses. Things have gotten a lot better in terms ofthe last years as far as the working environment is concerned. The Family and Medical Leave Act, credit time, that kind of thing would have been unheard of, or was unheard of when I started.

[Assistant] What was the work environment like?

[User] The work environment when I started was that everybody started work at the same time, and everybody quit at the same time. Ifyou used sick leave it was because you were supposed to be sick, so in other words, ifyou were a new father or a new mother caring for your children, that didn't cut any ice. You sere supposed to just use annual leave. And I do remember the controversy over flex-time, when it first came in. One ofthe things that was considered when arguing against it, was that, oh, people will go on flex-time and they'll take Fridays and Mondays off, and we won't have any coverage, this kind ofthing. I remember the study that they did when they worked on the pilot program was that the greatest absenteeism because oftaking time offwere the administrative units rather than the units that actually dealt with the public, so that kind of weakened their case ...

[Assistant] Ha, ha, right ...


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I think that as an archivist and as a supervisor I think we have come a long way, but that we still have a long way to go. Particularly in terms of; well, some people believe that the management is horrible around here, that we are a bunch of hard-noses. Things have gotten a lot better in terms ofthe last years as far as the working environment is concerned. The Family and Medical Leave Act, credit time, that kind of thing would have been unheard of, or was unheard of when I started.

[Assistant] What was the work environment like?

[User] The work environment when I started was that everybody started work at the same time, and everybody quit at the same time. Ifyou used sick leave it was because you were supposed to be sick, so in other words, ifyou were a new father or a new mother caring for your children, that didn't cut any ice. You sere supposed to just use annual leave. And I do remember the controversy over flex-time, when it first came in. One ofthe things that was considered when arguing against it, was that, oh, people will go on flex-time and they'll take Fridays and Mondays off, and we won't have any coverage, this kind ofthing. I remember the study that they did when they worked on the pilot program was that the greatest absenteeism because oftaking time offwere the administrative units rather than the units that actually dealt with the public, so that kind of weakened their case ...

[Assistant] Ha, ha, right ...

[User] But I think that things have gotten better in terms ofthat.

[Assistant] How hard was it for you to transition to be a supervisor?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm retired and I do a lot of scroll signs, which keeps me busy in the cold months of the winter and the hot months of the summer.

[Assistant] Where are you living now?

[User] In Green Bay, Wisconsin. We farmed for 30 years and then I retired and we bought a farm house and remodeled that. We sold it, bought another house and remodeled that one, and now we moved because it's just too much work.

[Assistant] Too much work. OK.

[User] So that’s brought me up to today.

[Assistant] Well, then the next thing that I want to do or I want you to think back to the year that you joined the Peace Corps and think about what you were doing before and how you heard about it and what made you decide to join.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Green Bay, Wisconsin. We farmed for 30 years and then I retired and we bought a farm house and remodeled that. We sold it, bought another house and remodeled that one, and now we moved because it's just too much work.

[Assistant] Too much work. OK.

[User] So that’s brought me up to today.

[Assistant] Well, then the next thing that I want to do or I want you to think back to the year that you joined the Peace Corps and think about what you were doing before and how you heard about it and what made you decide to join.

[User] Now, that, of course, that was in 1962. And I had been going with a gal for a year and we're going to get married. Then she decided that we weren't going to get married, but I had gone to business school in Milwaukee and my instructor had been around a bit around the world, and that's something I always wanted to do. So as soon as I wasn't tied down, I let me talk to him. And he called Washington, because he was a friend who was. I think. Anyway, he called Washington for me and said that I'd like to join the Peace Corps. And they called me back and a week later they said, you go get your tickets from Milwaukee and you get your passport picture and the tickets will be waiting for you at the airport to go to Arizona to start training to go to Bolivia. Where the hell is Bolivia? I don't know and I don't care. I just want to go. And that's the way I started my training.

[Assistant] So you didn't really indicate any particular preference to where you wanted to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that’s brought me up to today.

[Assistant] Well, then the next thing that I want to do or I want you to think back to the year that you joined the Peace Corps and think about what you were doing before and how you heard about it and what made you decide to join.

[User] Now, that, of course, that was in 1962. And I had been going with a gal for a year and we're going to get married. Then she decided that we weren't going to get married, but I had gone to business school in Milwaukee and my instructor had been around a bit around the world, and that's something I always wanted to do. So as soon as I wasn't tied down, I let me talk to him. And he called Washington, because he was a friend who was. I think. Anyway, he called Washington for me and said that I'd like to join the Peace Corps. And they called me back and a week later they said, you go get your tickets from Milwaukee and you get your passport picture and the tickets will be waiting for you at the airport to go to Arizona to start training to go to Bolivia. Where the hell is Bolivia? I don't know and I don't care. I just want to go. And that's the way I started my training.

[Assistant] So you didn't really indicate any particular preference to where you wanted to go?

[User] I wanted to go to Africa and I was really, well, that's one place that he had told me about, my instructor. And I thought it was really interesting and everything. But after I heard those guys trying to learn Swahili, boy, I’m glad we went to Bolivia.

[Assistant] All right. So tell me a little bit about the training and can you describe some of the things that you went through there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, that, of course, that was in 1962. And I had been going with a gal for a year and we're going to get married. Then she decided that we weren't going to get married, but I had gone to business school in Milwaukee and my instructor had been around a bit around the world, and that's something I always wanted to do. So as soon as I wasn't tied down, I let me talk to him. And he called Washington, because he was a friend who was. I think. Anyway, he called Washington for me and said that I'd like to join the Peace Corps. And they called me back and a week later they said, you go get your tickets from Milwaukee and you get your passport picture and the tickets will be waiting for you at the airport to go to Arizona to start training to go to Bolivia. Where the hell is Bolivia? I don't know and I don't care. I just want to go. And that's the way I started my training.

[Assistant] So you didn't really indicate any particular preference to where you wanted to go?

[User] I wanted to go to Africa and I was really, well, that's one place that he had told me about, my instructor. And I thought it was really interesting and everything. But after I heard those guys trying to learn Swahili, boy, I’m glad we went to Bolivia.

[Assistant] All right. So tell me a little bit about the training and can you describe some of the things that you went through there?

[User] Well, we got to Arizona on the plane. I got off the plane and I thought, why are they heating up this plane right in the middle of this airport? That was so hot. I have never experienced anything so hot. And that was the start of my training. Of course, then we lived in the stadium at Arizona State University, Tempe, and that was hotter than hell, which I had never experienced. Then we live on the reservation out in Arizona.

[Assistant] Did you have any second thoughts about that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wanted to go to Africa and I was really, well, that's one place that he had told me about, my instructor. And I thought it was really interesting and everything. But after I heard those guys trying to learn Swahili, boy, I’m glad we went to Bolivia.

[Assistant] All right. So tell me a little bit about the training and can you describe some of the things that you went through there?

[User] Well, we got to Arizona on the plane. I got off the plane and I thought, why are they heating up this plane right in the middle of this airport? That was so hot. I have never experienced anything so hot. And that was the start of my training. Of course, then we lived in the stadium at Arizona State University, Tempe, and that was hotter than hell, which I had never experienced. Then we live on the reservation out in Arizona.

[Assistant] Did you have any second thoughts about that time?

[User] No, no, it was really interesting. And I said, uh. I never pursued the fact of traveling the world, but this was the opportunity and I wasn't looking back. I encourage anybody that I meet today, through all these years, and if they want to do something to join the Peace Corps, that was the best experience of my life.

[Assistant] So what exactly were you doing out there on the reservation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we got to Arizona on the plane. I got off the plane and I thought, why are they heating up this plane right in the middle of this airport? That was so hot. I have never experienced anything so hot. And that was the start of my training. Of course, then we lived in the stadium at Arizona State University, Tempe, and that was hotter than hell, which I had never experienced. Then we live on the reservation out in Arizona.

[Assistant] Did you have any second thoughts about that time?

[User] No, no, it was really interesting. And I said, uh. I never pursued the fact of traveling the world, but this was the opportunity and I wasn't looking back. I encourage anybody that I meet today, through all these years, and if they want to do something to join the Peace Corps, that was the best experience of my life.

[Assistant] So what exactly were you doing out there on the reservation?

[User] We played with the bulldozer.

[Assistant] That you actually got to do something with a bulldozer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, it was really interesting. And I said, uh. I never pursued the fact of traveling the world, but this was the opportunity and I wasn't looking back. I encourage anybody that I meet today, through all these years, and if they want to do something to join the Peace Corps, that was the best experience of my life.

[Assistant] So what exactly were you doing out there on the reservation?

[User] We played with the bulldozer.

[Assistant] That you actually got to do something with a bulldozer?

[User] Yeah, we leveled some land with a bulldozer. Seems like we did a lot of exercising, and one of the things that fascinated me most was that we could jump in the irrigation ditches with all our clothes on, get out and walk away and be dry in a short time. And of course, Larry Oglesby was very fascinating. When we walked along the drainage ditches, he’d say, stop! Why should we stop? Well, there's a rattlesnake here. Oh, yeah, what's a rattlesnake? I have never heard a rattlesnake. And so we pound on the irrigation ditch and out comes the rattlesnake. And he grabs it by the head and he took it back to the university, found a sack to put it in.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We played with the bulldozer.

[Assistant] That you actually got to do something with a bulldozer?

[User] Yeah, we leveled some land with a bulldozer. Seems like we did a lot of exercising, and one of the things that fascinated me most was that we could jump in the irrigation ditches with all our clothes on, get out and walk away and be dry in a short time. And of course, Larry Oglesby was very fascinating. When we walked along the drainage ditches, he’d say, stop! Why should we stop? Well, there's a rattlesnake here. Oh, yeah, what's a rattlesnake? I have never heard a rattlesnake. And so we pound on the irrigation ditch and out comes the rattlesnake. And he grabs it by the head and he took it back to the university, found a sack to put it in.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] All the all the training out there, it was very interesting. I visited the Indian homes and talked to some of the Indians there. And I still have a dish that I got from one of them, a clay pot that they gave me. From Arizona, that was neat.

[Assistant] So what did you think of your fellow volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we leveled some land with a bulldozer. Seems like we did a lot of exercising, and one of the things that fascinated me most was that we could jump in the irrigation ditches with all our clothes on, get out and walk away and be dry in a short time. And of course, Larry Oglesby was very fascinating. When we walked along the drainage ditches, he’d say, stop! Why should we stop? Well, there's a rattlesnake here. Oh, yeah, what's a rattlesnake? I have never heard a rattlesnake. And so we pound on the irrigation ditch and out comes the rattlesnake. And he grabs it by the head and he took it back to the university, found a sack to put it in.

[Assistant] Oh my gosh.

[User] All the all the training out there, it was very interesting. I visited the Indian homes and talked to some of the Indians there. And I still have a dish that I got from one of them, a clay pot that they gave me. From Arizona, that was neat.

[Assistant] So what did you think of your fellow volunteers?

[User] All very interesting. First I roomed with Ezra Funke who seemed like he's was his 90s then already, but I'm not sure. And Ralph Long, who was a very personable person. Actually, when Pete Nieblas and I ended up together in Bolivia, I had never roomed with them or never had Spanish courses with them or anything else, but we ended up together in Bolivia, which was really great.

[Assistant] So after Arizona, then what happened? Can you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the all the training out there, it was very interesting. I visited the Indian homes and talked to some of the Indians there. And I still have a dish that I got from one of them, a clay pot that they gave me. From Arizona, that was neat.

[Assistant] So what did you think of your fellow volunteers?

[User] All very interesting. First I roomed with Ezra Funke who seemed like he's was his 90s then already, but I'm not sure. And Ralph Long, who was a very personable person. Actually, when Pete Nieblas and I ended up together in Bolivia, I had never roomed with them or never had Spanish courses with them or anything else, but we ended up together in Bolivia, which was really great.

[Assistant] So after Arizona, then what happened? Can you talk about that?

[User] Well, we went through. Of course, that was the Cuban Crisis so we went to Florida and from Florida, they sent us back to Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] What about Puerto Rico? Weren't you there? Arecibo, Camp Crozier?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All very interesting. First I roomed with Ezra Funke who seemed like he's was his 90s then already, but I'm not sure. And Ralph Long, who was a very personable person. Actually, when Pete Nieblas and I ended up together in Bolivia, I had never roomed with them or never had Spanish courses with them or anything else, but we ended up together in Bolivia, which was really great.

[Assistant] So after Arizona, then what happened? Can you talk about that?

[User] Well, we went through. Of course, that was the Cuban Crisis so we went to Florida and from Florida, they sent us back to Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] What about Puerto Rico? Weren't you there? Arecibo, Camp Crozier?

[User] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Assistant] What do you think of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we went through. Of course, that was the Cuban Crisis so we went to Florida and from Florida, they sent us back to Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] What about Puerto Rico? Weren't you there? Arecibo, Camp Crozier?

[User] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Assistant] What do you think of that?

[User] Well, that was that yeah. That was in between. Well, that was really. The person that cook the meal in Puerto Rico was an ex Army cook, and he said he's never seen a group eat more than we ever did. The food was the best. They had five gallon cans of grapefruit juice and grape juice and orange juice. And it was always colder than cold and it was just delicious. But the training there was very interesting, except for some of the houses we lived in. I had never seen the family that I lived with. It was just a room. So I never got to meet them or but I really don't know if anybody else ever lived there.

[Assistant] You mean in Mayaguez?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Assistant] What do you think of that?

[User] Well, that was that yeah. That was in between. Well, that was really. The person that cook the meal in Puerto Rico was an ex Army cook, and he said he's never seen a group eat more than we ever did. The food was the best. They had five gallon cans of grapefruit juice and grape juice and orange juice. And it was always colder than cold and it was just delicious. But the training there was very interesting, except for some of the houses we lived in. I had never seen the family that I lived with. It was just a room. So I never got to meet them or but I really don't know if anybody else ever lived there.

[Assistant] You mean in Mayaguez?

[User] In Mayaguez, yeah.

[Assistant] Because in Crozier, we lived in the tent.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was that yeah. That was in between. Well, that was really. The person that cook the meal in Puerto Rico was an ex Army cook, and he said he's never seen a group eat more than we ever did. The food was the best. They had five gallon cans of grapefruit juice and grape juice and orange juice. And it was always colder than cold and it was just delicious. But the training there was very interesting, except for some of the houses we lived in. I had never seen the family that I lived with. It was just a room. So I never got to meet them or but I really don't know if anybody else ever lived there.

[Assistant] You mean in Mayaguez?

[User] In Mayaguez, yeah.

[Assistant] Because in Crozier, we lived in the tent.

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] You did you participate in that? What was your least favorite or most favorite activity there of the physical activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Mayaguez, yeah.

[Assistant] Because in Crozier, we lived in the tent.

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] You did you participate in that? What was your least favorite or most favorite activity there of the physical activities?

[User] [inaudible]

[Assistant] You really like that, huh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] You did you participate in that? What was your least favorite or most favorite activity there of the physical activities?

[User] [inaudible]

[Assistant] You really like that, huh?

[User] [inaudible] Off the dam. Yeah, I thought that was my greatest experience, something that I would never thought of trying to do. But after the other person did it, I figured, well, they can do that, I can do it.

[Assistant] Well, I figured if I was able to do it, anyone could. And how about the hike across the island?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [inaudible]

[Assistant] You really like that, huh?

[User] [inaudible] Off the dam. Yeah, I thought that was my greatest experience, something that I would never thought of trying to do. But after the other person did it, I figured, well, they can do that, I can do it.

[Assistant] Well, I figured if I was able to do it, anyone could. And how about the hike across the island?

[User] That was interesting and it was fun. It was all in every part of it. I lived on the farm. I just worked on the farm. And we'd never been, my dad wasn’t a traveler. And why I grew up loving to travel, I don't know, but every part of this whole process was just tremendously interesting to me. I never had a bad day, never a day I didn't like that. You know, I rather think about going home or something like that. There never was a day.

[Assistant] So after Puerto Rico then, what happened? And I guess that's we went home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [inaudible] Off the dam. Yeah, I thought that was my greatest experience, something that I would never thought of trying to do. But after the other person did it, I figured, well, they can do that, I can do it.

[Assistant] Well, I figured if I was able to do it, anyone could. And how about the hike across the island?

[User] That was interesting and it was fun. It was all in every part of it. I lived on the farm. I just worked on the farm. And we'd never been, my dad wasn’t a traveler. And why I grew up loving to travel, I don't know, but every part of this whole process was just tremendously interesting to me. I never had a bad day, never a day I didn't like that. You know, I rather think about going home or something like that. There never was a day.

[Assistant] So after Puerto Rico then, what happened? And I guess that's we went home.

[User] We all went home, yeah. And then we were supposed to meet back in Florida. Which we did, and, of course, that was the Cuban Crisis and they sent us to Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] And what about that experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was interesting and it was fun. It was all in every part of it. I lived on the farm. I just worked on the farm. And we'd never been, my dad wasn’t a traveler. And why I grew up loving to travel, I don't know, but every part of this whole process was just tremendously interesting to me. I never had a bad day, never a day I didn't like that. You know, I rather think about going home or something like that. There never was a day.

[Assistant] So after Puerto Rico then, what happened? And I guess that's we went home.

[User] We all went home, yeah. And then we were supposed to meet back in Florida. Which we did, and, of course, that was the Cuban Crisis and they sent us to Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] And what about that experience?

[User] Well, what do we do? We played cards and I think the country was beautiful. It was very nice weather, and then they sent us to Boston for the day to get to do something and get us out of their hair I guess, that’s what I've heard. My best experience there was talking to a Bostonian cop, asking him directions.

[Assistant] So how did that go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We all went home, yeah. And then we were supposed to meet back in Florida. Which we did, and, of course, that was the Cuban Crisis and they sent us to Brattleboro, Vermont.

[Assistant] And what about that experience?

[User] Well, what do we do? We played cards and I think the country was beautiful. It was very nice weather, and then they sent us to Boston for the day to get to do something and get us out of their hair I guess, that’s what I've heard. My best experience there was talking to a Bostonian cop, asking him directions.

[Assistant] So how did that go?

[User] Well, between the two of us, and I can't remember just who I was with, when we walked away, he said, did you understand what he said? And I said, no, I didn't understand a word. He said, he might have been talking Spanish for all I know. That was one thing in Puerto Rico. The Spanish instruction was superb. That fellow taught us Spanish, more than we learned at Arizona State.

[Assistant] That was at Mayaguez?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, what do we do? We played cards and I think the country was beautiful. It was very nice weather, and then they sent us to Boston for the day to get to do something and get us out of their hair I guess, that’s what I've heard. My best experience there was talking to a Bostonian cop, asking him directions.

[Assistant] So how did that go?

[User] Well, between the two of us, and I can't remember just who I was with, when we walked away, he said, did you understand what he said? And I said, no, I didn't understand a word. He said, he might have been talking Spanish for all I know. That was one thing in Puerto Rico. The Spanish instruction was superb. That fellow taught us Spanish, more than we learned at Arizona State.

[Assistant] That was at Mayaguez?

[User] That was Mayaguez. That fellow was terrific, he taught is Spanish.

[Assistant] Ok, so now let's go back to when you finally arrived in Bolivia, what were your impressions of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, between the two of us, and I can't remember just who I was with, when we walked away, he said, did you understand what he said? And I said, no, I didn't understand a word. He said, he might have been talking Spanish for all I know. That was one thing in Puerto Rico. The Spanish instruction was superb. That fellow taught us Spanish, more than we learned at Arizona State.

[Assistant] That was at Mayaguez?

[User] That was Mayaguez. That fellow was terrific, he taught is Spanish.

[Assistant] Ok, so now let's go back to when you finally arrived in Bolivia, what were your impressions of that?

[User] I was sicker than a dog.

[Assistant] Because of the altitude?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was Mayaguez. That fellow was terrific, he taught is Spanish.

[Assistant] Ok, so now let's go back to when you finally arrived in Bolivia, what were your impressions of that?

[User] I was sicker than a dog.

[Assistant] Because of the altitude?

[User] The altitude just killed me. I had headaches for days. And for me, that was kind of a blur. We went and met the president, the whole group. And they took us someplace, which some of the fellows have talked about, but I really don't remember too much about it. The most I remember was leaving La Paz and starting out to Cochabamba with our wagon train and getting gas. Stopping for gas and the drive down there.

[Assistant] There that probably would have been notable for you, the way they had the gas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was sicker than a dog.

[Assistant] Because of the altitude?

[User] The altitude just killed me. I had headaches for days. And for me, that was kind of a blur. We went and met the president, the whole group. And they took us someplace, which some of the fellows have talked about, but I really don't remember too much about it. The most I remember was leaving La Paz and starting out to Cochabamba with our wagon train and getting gas. Stopping for gas and the drive down there.

[Assistant] There that probably would have been notable for you, the way they had the gas.

[User] Yeah, that for sure. It was a very primitive type deal.

[Assistant] So once you got to Cochabamba, then what happened? Can you talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Cows just loved it. Then they started milking and then he called us up and we went out and looked and they had dug out quite a bit already. And he had about four inches of spoilage on top, which was normal, keeps the air from the rest of it. And that was that was our success, after working for 15 months or something there. I always tell that story. And I said, you know, it took us almost the whole time we were in the Peace Corps to do that. So things didn't move too fast. But the people were.

[Assistant] Did the people understand how to do it so they could do it after that?

[User] Well, as far as I know, they did well. They saw the results and he knew the way he built it and how it worked and everything. And so. About the time that the project got finished, that he was using it, it was almost time for us to leave. It took that long.

[Assistant] Like things don't happen overnight.

[User] They sure don’t.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds like a really fascinating project, Larry. Tell me what else what other things come to mind when you think about the projects that you did? Either that did work or didn't work.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as far as I know, they did well. They saw the results and he knew the way he built it and how it worked and everything. And so. About the time that the project got finished, that he was using it, it was almost time for us to leave. It took that long.

[Assistant] Like things don't happen overnight.

[User] They sure don’t.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds like a really fascinating project, Larry. Tell me what else what other things come to mind when you think about the projects that you did? Either that did work or didn't work.

[User] Well, it’s not so much they didn't work, it just forever to do anything. Like you say, in farming you don't see results. It's like a scientific experiment. It all takes time. I always say the best thing that I got out of the Peace Corps or in Bolivia was what they taught me, not what I taught them. It’s all what they taught me. The life that was there was very important. In Arani when I visited Bill Schnek the thing I like best was the goat cheese. Of course, Dr. Grace goes, that's probably got so many germs in it. I said, well I’ve survived so far. But the projects. I did various things but nothing as good as the silo and getting those tractors started after two years we were there.

[Assistant] So when you weren't working, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They sure don’t.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds like a really fascinating project, Larry. Tell me what else what other things come to mind when you think about the projects that you did? Either that did work or didn't work.

[User] Well, it’s not so much they didn't work, it just forever to do anything. Like you say, in farming you don't see results. It's like a scientific experiment. It all takes time. I always say the best thing that I got out of the Peace Corps or in Bolivia was what they taught me, not what I taught them. It’s all what they taught me. The life that was there was very important. In Arani when I visited Bill Schnek the thing I like best was the goat cheese. Of course, Dr. Grace goes, that's probably got so many germs in it. I said, well I’ve survived so far. But the projects. I did various things but nothing as good as the silo and getting those tractors started after two years we were there.

[Assistant] So when you weren't working, what did you do?

[User] Well, Peter had a friend that had some guns so we went hunting codorniz, which is like a quail. And that was very interesting. We went down to Chapare. The friends of ours had a place down there and along the river. We hunted alligators and ate alligators. Then I went with, I can't remember just who, but it’s up in the mountains, one of their projects up there, and we went up there and gave smallpox shots to kids, which they weren't too happy about, but we told them that we would take their picture after we got all done. Well then everything was pretty good because they wanted their picture taken. Course we didn't have cameras that you could see right away, the picture that turned out, but just to get their picture taken was fascinating.

[Assistant] Did you do any traveling outside of Bolivia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it’s not so much they didn't work, it just forever to do anything. Like you say, in farming you don't see results. It's like a scientific experiment. It all takes time. I always say the best thing that I got out of the Peace Corps or in Bolivia was what they taught me, not what I taught them. It’s all what they taught me. The life that was there was very important. In Arani when I visited Bill Schnek the thing I like best was the goat cheese. Of course, Dr. Grace goes, that's probably got so many germs in it. I said, well I’ve survived so far. But the projects. I did various things but nothing as good as the silo and getting those tractors started after two years we were there.

[Assistant] So when you weren't working, what did you do?

[User] Well, Peter had a friend that had some guns so we went hunting codorniz, which is like a quail. And that was very interesting. We went down to Chapare. The friends of ours had a place down there and along the river. We hunted alligators and ate alligators. Then I went with, I can't remember just who, but it’s up in the mountains, one of their projects up there, and we went up there and gave smallpox shots to kids, which they weren't too happy about, but we told them that we would take their picture after we got all done. Well then everything was pretty good because they wanted their picture taken. Course we didn't have cameras that you could see right away, the picture that turned out, but just to get their picture taken was fascinating.

[Assistant] Did you do any traveling outside of Bolivia?

[User] We sure did.

[Assistant] But where did you go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We sure did.

[Assistant] But where did you go?

[User] Well, Bill Schnek and Pete and I went to Machu Picchu and went to Peru. And then Bill Schnek went back and Peter and I went down to Chile, Santiago, Chile, and we rode the trains back up through Chile and back up to La Paz and took the bus back down to Cochabamba, which was a real experience if you've ever ridden the train. And we went on bus trips around Bolivia, up to Portasee, and there were busses that ran on the railroad tracks down to part of the country. And we took those and at that time, I learned to say, [inaudible].

[Assistant] Which means?

[User] What are you laughing at? Because I have odd shoes with the lifts on them. The campesinos would come up and they would talk about it, you know, and they were kind of laughing and everything. And Peter and I would wait for them to get closer and closer and then I would say [inaudible] and they would just fade away. And that was one of our troops. And the other trip we went down to Brazil and Paraguay, down to Argentina. And we're always trying to take in as Argentina, not as Americans. So we've never heard anything about being American, but we always heard things about us being Argentineans. But we saw a lot of the country, as much as possible. That was one thing that was really amazing because Peter and I had the same ideas As far as we could go as cheaply as we could possibly go. If we got into hotel rooms that smelled like Lysol, that was great. We knew that there was some disinfectant in them anyway. We got sick once in a while, but not very much. But Peter and I traveled, traveled a lot as much as we possibly could.

[Assistant] So if you think back about your time in Bolivia, other than the silo and the tractors that you got resuscitated, uh, what stands out in your mind that you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What are you laughing at? Because I have odd shoes with the lifts on them. The campesinos would come up and they would talk about it, you know, and they were kind of laughing and everything. And Peter and I would wait for them to get closer and closer and then I would say [inaudible] and they would just fade away. And that was one of our troops. And the other trip we went down to Brazil and Paraguay, down to Argentina. And we're always trying to take in as Argentina, not as Americans. So we've never heard anything about being American, but we always heard things about us being Argentineans. But we saw a lot of the country, as much as possible. That was one thing that was really amazing because Peter and I had the same ideas As far as we could go as cheaply as we could possibly go. If we got into hotel rooms that smelled like Lysol, that was great. We knew that there was some disinfectant in them anyway. We got sick once in a while, but not very much. But Peter and I traveled, traveled a lot as much as we possibly could.

[Assistant] So if you think back about your time in Bolivia, other than the silo and the tractors that you got resuscitated, uh, what stands out in your mind that you remember?

[User] The people. The people were always, the people were great. They were nice to us, they helped us. And they were, the people that fascinated me and the way they worked. But when you can see how fella take coat hangers and do welding with them, and that's all he’s got, that really fascinated me because I would never dream of trying to weld with a coat hanger, but that's all they had for materials so that’s what they used.

[Assistant] A lot of improvisation.

[User] Yes. Yep. Everywhere. I mean, a tin can to those people was worth more than what was inside of it. But, boy, when you had the tin can, you could do so many different things.

[Assistant] And so where were you when Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The people. The people were always, the people were great. They were nice to us, they helped us. And they were, the people that fascinated me and the way they worked. But when you can see how fella take coat hangers and do welding with them, and that's all he’s got, that really fascinated me because I would never dream of trying to weld with a coat hanger, but that's all they had for materials so that’s what they used.

[Assistant] A lot of improvisation.

[User] Yes. Yep. Everywhere. I mean, a tin can to those people was worth more than what was inside of it. But, boy, when you had the tin can, you could do so many different things.

[Assistant] And so where were you when Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember that?

[User] I was at the Tombarada and I didn't hear anything about it then until I came back to the family we lived with and they said, well, are you leaving right now or are you leaving tomorrow? And we said, are we leaving? For where? To go back to the States. And we said, no. And they said, why not? I said, well, what are we going to do? And I said, things there will keep on going, the Peace Corps will keep on going. It isn't going to stop. And they couldn't believe it. And it’s one of those things that happened, but they were just amazed that we didn’t turn and go right home after that.

[Assistant] So after you got out of the Peace Corps, what did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] How do you think being in the Peace Corps changed the direction of your life?

[User] It gave me an insight to what life is like besides our own little corner of the world. And when people talk about poverty, that's one thing that always, you know, what is poverty? Explain poverty. In your form of life, their form of life, or their part of the world. I mean, like in Cochabamba, you saw kids in the way that and dirty playing in the streets, playing with whatever they had, having a good time, laughing, hollering. And I'm sure their life, you know, wasn't a joy, but they had good times, too. And people say, oh, they're so poor, OK, they are in some respects. But to our type of living or their type of living are they poor? They might have been the happiest kids in the world, who knows. So they never felt sorry for themselves. And of course, they always came begging for us, you know. When Peter and I would walk downtown with candy or something, we’d give them some candy cause we were always buying candy, which I loved. [tape break] Walking and just ignoring them. And I motioned to Peter, look down, and he kind of looked down. Well, these two kids were laughing at each other and everything and making jokes, walking alongside us and all of sudden saw us looking at them, “pobrecito, pobrecito.” And we just laughed and laughed. But that was quite an experience that that's one thing. Poverty is, I don't know how to say it, but it's always when people say those people in other countries are so poor, by what standards do you consider them poor?

[Assistant] All right, that's an important insight.

[User] That's the big difference in how other people live.

[Assistant] If you have not gone in the Peace Corps, do you think that you would have done different things than what you ended up doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It gave me an insight to what life is like besides our own little corner of the world. And when people talk about poverty, that's one thing that always, you know, what is poverty? Explain poverty. In your form of life, their form of life, or their part of the world. I mean, like in Cochabamba, you saw kids in the way that and dirty playing in the streets, playing with whatever they had, having a good time, laughing, hollering. And I'm sure their life, you know, wasn't a joy, but they had good times, too. And people say, oh, they're so poor, OK, they are in some respects. But to our type of living or their type of living are they poor? They might have been the happiest kids in the world, who knows. So they never felt sorry for themselves. And of course, they always came begging for us, you know. When Peter and I would walk downtown with candy or something, we’d give them some candy cause we were always buying candy, which I loved. [tape break] Walking and just ignoring them. And I motioned to Peter, look down, and he kind of looked down. Well, these two kids were laughing at each other and everything and making jokes, walking alongside us and all of sudden saw us looking at them, “pobrecito, pobrecito.” And we just laughed and laughed. But that was quite an experience that that's one thing. Poverty is, I don't know how to say it, but it's always when people say those people in other countries are so poor, by what standards do you consider them poor?

[Assistant] All right, that's an important insight.

[User] That's the big difference in how other people live.

[Assistant] If you have not gone in the Peace Corps, do you think that you would have done different things than what you ended up doing?

[User] Well, I would have still tried to go overseas. I would have went overseas somewhere because that was one of the things that always interested me. And of course, my instructor talked about it several times.

[Assistant] How old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's the big difference in how other people live.

[Assistant] If you have not gone in the Peace Corps, do you think that you would have done different things than what you ended up doing?

[User] Well, I would have still tried to go overseas. I would have went overseas somewhere because that was one of the things that always interested me. And of course, my instructor talked about it several times.

[Assistant] How old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?

[User] Twenty-two.

[Assistant] Twenty two and a bunch of us about that age, young, it was a pretty young group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I would have still tried to go overseas. I would have went overseas somewhere because that was one of the things that always interested me. And of course, my instructor talked about it several times.

[Assistant] How old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?

[User] Twenty-two.

[Assistant] Twenty two and a bunch of us about that age, young, it was a pretty young group.

[User] Yeah. We're kind of the older well, middle older ones. It was a little bit younger, and then Ralph Long who was quite a bit older. Who I enjoyed visiting very much after we got out of Peace Corps.

[Assistant] I actually went to visit him too in Oklahoma there, on my way back to Texas. Uh, OK. Well, have you maintained any kind of contact with any of the people in Bolivia that you knew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Twenty-two.

[Assistant] Twenty two and a bunch of us about that age, young, it was a pretty young group.

[User] Yeah. We're kind of the older well, middle older ones. It was a little bit younger, and then Ralph Long who was quite a bit older. Who I enjoyed visiting very much after we got out of Peace Corps.

[Assistant] I actually went to visit him too in Oklahoma there, on my way back to Texas. Uh, OK. Well, have you maintained any kind of contact with any of the people in Bolivia that you knew?

[User] No, not at all. Life just got going too fast, right, between farming and working at night and everything. I always wanted to go back but, of course, that money was always kind of short.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you think that being in the Peace Corps changed, it sounds like you did quite a bit with technical assistance, with your silo idea and tractors and things like that, and then you said that you thought you had learned a lot from the Bolivians and that you feel like you think they understand more about Americans because of being in contact with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. We're kind of the older well, middle older ones. It was a little bit younger, and then Ralph Long who was quite a bit older. Who I enjoyed visiting very much after we got out of Peace Corps.

[Assistant] I actually went to visit him too in Oklahoma there, on my way back to Texas. Uh, OK. Well, have you maintained any kind of contact with any of the people in Bolivia that you knew?

[User] No, not at all. Life just got going too fast, right, between farming and working at night and everything. I always wanted to go back but, of course, that money was always kind of short.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you think that being in the Peace Corps changed, it sounds like you did quite a bit with technical assistance, with your silo idea and tractors and things like that, and then you said that you thought you had learned a lot from the Bolivians and that you feel like you think they understand more about Americans because of being in contact with you.

[User] Well, there's one family that we knew quite well, with four or five kids. And I mean, they were teenagers. But I don't think I ever convinced them that my mother did her own washing and cooking on the farm. They just could not quite picture the fact that we worked the farm ourselves and my mother did the things herself. They just couldn't quite grasp that she didn't have some maids to help her. Like either in Bolivia, I think you were a maid or you had a maid, it seemed to me. That's one of the things that I don't know, I ever convinced them about the way we lived or not.

[Assistant] Well, it's hard to tell. Yeah, so overall, you said in the beginning that you it's experience that you would encourage other people to do, that you would have done it again and you had it to do over.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there's one family that we knew quite well, with four or five kids. And I mean, they were teenagers. But I don't think I ever convinced them that my mother did her own washing and cooking on the farm. They just could not quite picture the fact that we worked the farm ourselves and my mother did the things herself. They just couldn't quite grasp that she didn't have some maids to help her. Like either in Bolivia, I think you were a maid or you had a maid, it seemed to me. That's one of the things that I don't know, I ever convinced them about the way we lived or not.

[Assistant] Well, it's hard to tell. Yeah, so overall, you said in the beginning that you it's experience that you would encourage other people to do, that you would have done it again and you had it to do over.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes. All the time. Anybody I've talked to that had the least interest in joining the Peace Corps. If anybody ever did it, I really couldn’t tell you. Farm congress days, which we have in Wisconsin and some other places, they invited me to join the Peace Corps group that was there to talk to people. It didn't last too long because it turned out about 100 [degrees] that weekend or during the week they had it, and it was just so hot that it lasted one day. But other than that, I've never really gone out for public speaking or things like that.

[Assistant] So tell me, Larry, from your point of view, why has this diverse group that was Bolivia II stuck together, maintained contact?

[User] Well, I think we all kind of got the same set of values. There's nobody in our group that feels above anybody else, I don't think. As far as I know, I mean, and we really enjoy getting together. So it's the, some we see more often. Stop and see George Wright a couple of times, and I really don't. I guess it's just the, we were all pretty much in the same category I would say.

[Assistant] Even though people came from diverse backgrounds.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Oh, yes. All the time. Anybody I've talked to that had the least interest in joining the Peace Corps. If anybody ever did it, I really couldn’t tell you. Farm congress days, which we have in Wisconsin and some other places, they invited me to join the Peace Corps group that was there to talk to people. It didn't last too long because it turned out about 100 [degrees] that weekend or during the week they had it, and it was just so hot that it lasted one day. But other than that, I've never really gone out for public speaking or things like that.

[Assistant] So tell me, Larry, from your point of view, why has this diverse group that was Bolivia II stuck together, maintained contact?

[User] Well, I think we all kind of got the same set of values. There's nobody in our group that feels above anybody else, I don't think. As far as I know, I mean, and we really enjoy getting together. So it's the, some we see more often. Stop and see George Wright a couple of times, and I really don't. I guess it's just the, we were all pretty much in the same category I would say.

[Assistant] Even though people came from diverse backgrounds.

[User] Everybody's got a different background.

[Assistant] It's usually not always the kind of group you would you would have been prepared to see maintain contact that much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think we all kind of got the same set of values. There's nobody in our group that feels above anybody else, I don't think. As far as I know, I mean, and we really enjoy getting together. So it's the, some we see more often. Stop and see George Wright a couple of times, and I really don't. I guess it's just the, we were all pretty much in the same category I would say.

[Assistant] Even though people came from diverse backgrounds.

[User] Everybody's got a different background.

[Assistant] It's usually not always the kind of group you would you would have been prepared to see maintain contact that much.

[User] No. Well, the first, the first time we didn't go either. There was too many things going on, we just couldn't get away. But then after that, why, I said, I'm going to go. Whatever’s going to happen, we’re going to go. It’s always been enjoyable, seeing the guys, and girls.

[Assistant] Do you have anything else you'd like to add that I haven't asked you about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Wasn’t that on the tape?

[Assistant] No, I missed that. Could you repeat that for us now? It was so great.

[User]
I told them we would come home and watch “Days of Our Lives,” and I told her we'd complain about the acting, complain about the writing. We’d complain about the directing, and Shirley should be a director. She would make an excellent director in the movies.

The Trench people [in the Mission Control Center] thought I tried to direct them, too. [Laughter]

It isn’t you're trying to make people do what you want; it’s that she has this attention to detail that directors need. Like, you don’t want your hair parted here and the next thing parted here and he hasn’t been anywhere. She notices things like that. Drives me crazy.

John [S.] Llewellyn [Jr.] nicknamed me “Shirley Smart.” [Laughter] Did he tell you that? He always called me Shirley Smart because I was always smarting off, I guess.

[Assistant] You kept them all in line. That’s quite a challenge.

[User] I did. I did. I mean, I tried to. They know I tried to.

[Assistant] Did you have other people that you knew in your association with work that you saw couples get married and have marriages as a NASA couple?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You want to test?

[Assistant] Let's just assume it's going to work, it's a good recorder. So this is today is June 6, 2015. This is Phyllis Noble. I'm interviewing Abdullahi Edward Tomasiewicz, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Nigeria from August of 1966 to August of 1967 in an agricultural development program, which back then we called Ag- RD. Ed, just tell us very briefly where you live now?

[User] I live in Kano.

[Assistant] In Kano, Nigeria?

[User] Kano, Nigeria.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that's an amazingly remarkable thing I have to say. So Ed's in, we're doing this interview on the campus of Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley, because there's a Peace Corps conference going on here this weekend. And Ed's training group paid for him to come over here, which is to all of our delight. Um, let's begin at the beginning. Where did where did you grow up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I live in Kano.

[Assistant] In Kano, Nigeria?

[User] Kano, Nigeria.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that's an amazingly remarkable thing I have to say. So Ed's in, we're doing this interview on the campus of Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley, because there's a Peace Corps conference going on here this weekend. And Ed's training group paid for him to come over here, which is to all of our delight. Um, let's begin at the beginning. Where did where did you grow up?

[User] Waterbury, Connecticut.

[Assistant] Waterbury, Connecticut. And how big was your family? Did you have siblings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Kano, Nigeria.

[Assistant] Yeah. And that's an amazingly remarkable thing I have to say. So Ed's in, we're doing this interview on the campus of Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley, because there's a Peace Corps conference going on here this weekend. And Ed's training group paid for him to come over here, which is to all of our delight. Um, let's begin at the beginning. Where did where did you grow up?

[User] Waterbury, Connecticut.

[Assistant] Waterbury, Connecticut. And how big was your family? Did you have siblings?

[User] Seven children.

[Assistant] Where are you in the line?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Waterbury, Connecticut.

[Assistant] Waterbury, Connecticut. And how big was your family? Did you have siblings?

[User] Seven children.

[Assistant] Where are you in the line?

[User] I’m the second oldest. I have an older brother and I have brothers and sisters younger than me. One of the last one is now late.

[Assistant] Sorry to hear.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Seven children.

[Assistant] Where are you in the line?

[User] I’m the second oldest. I have an older brother and I have brothers and sisters younger than me. One of the last one is now late.

[Assistant] Sorry to hear.

[User] He died in Germany about 20 years ago. So there's six remaining. My parents all died in the 2005 to 2007 period. My father died in 2005. My mother in 2007. I was here for my father's funeral and here to put my mother to rest. Because she waited for me.

[Assistant] Oh she did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m the second oldest. I have an older brother and I have brothers and sisters younger than me. One of the last one is now late.

[Assistant] Sorry to hear.

[User] He died in Germany about 20 years ago. So there's six remaining. My parents all died in the 2005 to 2007 period. My father died in 2005. My mother in 2007. I was here for my father's funeral and here to put my mother to rest. Because she waited for me.

[Assistant] Oh she did.

[User] Yeah. All my brothers and sisters were there. She refused to die until I got here. Yeah, they called me on Friday. I arrived on Sunday. She died on Tuesday.

[Assistant] She needed you to be there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He died in Germany about 20 years ago. So there's six remaining. My parents all died in the 2005 to 2007 period. My father died in 2005. My mother in 2007. I was here for my father's funeral and here to put my mother to rest. Because she waited for me.

[Assistant] Oh she did.

[User] Yeah. All my brothers and sisters were there. She refused to die until I got here. Yeah, they called me on Friday. I arrived on Sunday. She died on Tuesday.

[Assistant] She needed you to be there.

[User] I’m her pet, I was.

[Assistant] How wonderful. And so you seven kids and that's nine people, you couldn't all fit in one car and go someplace.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. All my brothers and sisters were there. She refused to die until I got here. Yeah, they called me on Friday. I arrived on Sunday. She died on Tuesday.

[Assistant] She needed you to be there.

[User] I’m her pet, I was.

[Assistant] How wonderful. And so you seven kids and that's nine people, you couldn't all fit in one car and go someplace.

[User] Well, we had a station wagon. Chevrolet station wagon. And people sat on people's laps of course.

[Assistant] Yeah, you'd have to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we had a station wagon. Chevrolet station wagon. And people sat on people's laps of course.

[Assistant] Yeah, you'd have to.

[User] Yeah, but we all were and went to the same grammar schools and high school. Some of the high school students were different, but we all went to St. Francis Xavier Grammar School and Sacred Heart High School.

[Assistant] Catholic school.

[User] Yes. And I graduated in 1960 from there. I worked two years in a factory before going full time to university.

[Assistant] Two years in a factory. So before we get into what it was like to work in that factory and where you went to the university, well, let's talk about Sacred Heart High School. Did you were you studying a foreign language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but we all were and went to the same grammar schools and high school. Some of the high school students were different, but we all went to St. Francis Xavier Grammar School and Sacred Heart High School.

[Assistant] Catholic school.

[User] Yes. And I graduated in 1960 from there. I worked two years in a factory before going full time to university.

[Assistant] Two years in a factory. So before we get into what it was like to work in that factory and where you went to the university, well, let's talk about Sacred Heart High School. Did you were you studying a foreign language?

[User] No. Latin. That was it.

[Assistant] Ah, yes, of course. And what sort of extracurricular?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And I graduated in 1960 from there. I worked two years in a factory before going full time to university.

[Assistant] Two years in a factory. So before we get into what it was like to work in that factory and where you went to the university, well, let's talk about Sacred Heart High School. Did you were you studying a foreign language?

[User] No. Latin. That was it.

[Assistant] Ah, yes, of course. And what sort of extracurricular?

[User] There was Spanish.

[Assistant] But what your language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Latin. That was it.

[Assistant] Ah, yes, of course. And what sort of extracurricular?

[User] There was Spanish.

[Assistant] But what your language?

[User] High school Spanish. Yeah, I don't remember that very well. We use some of it when I went to Peace Corps training because they sent us down to Baja California.

[Assistant] So you studied both Spanish and Latin in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was Spanish.

[Assistant] But what your language?

[User] High school Spanish. Yeah, I don't remember that very well. We use some of it when I went to Peace Corps training because they sent us down to Baja California.

[Assistant] So you studied both Spanish and Latin in high school?

[User] Yeah, but I mean, not much of it stuck. Let's put it there.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. When you get down to Baja, were you able to use it a little bit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] High school Spanish. Yeah, I don't remember that very well. We use some of it when I went to Peace Corps training because they sent us down to Baja California.

[Assistant] So you studied both Spanish and Latin in high school?

[User] Yeah, but I mean, not much of it stuck. Let's put it there.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. When you get down to Baja, were you able to use it a little bit?

[User] I was able to use it, whatever I knew. Wasn’t a lot. But the factory I worked in, in Baja, the guy was an American who owned it. I didn’t need the Spanish, only to talk to the employees to ask them what they were doing, how long it took them to do this, because I ended up redesigning his factory for him because he had grown so quickly that his production facility was a mess. So I told him and he asked me to redesign it. So I did.

[Assistant] Now wait, we’re jumping ahead here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but I mean, not much of it stuck. Let's put it there.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. When you get down to Baja, were you able to use it a little bit?

[User] I was able to use it, whatever I knew. Wasn’t a lot. But the factory I worked in, in Baja, the guy was an American who owned it. I didn’t need the Spanish, only to talk to the employees to ask them what they were doing, how long it took them to do this, because I ended up redesigning his factory for him because he had grown so quickly that his production facility was a mess. So I told him and he asked me to redesign it. So I did.

[Assistant] Now wait, we’re jumping ahead here.

[User] We’re jumping ahead. We were left on languages.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And at home was English the language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was able to use it, whatever I knew. Wasn’t a lot. But the factory I worked in, in Baja, the guy was an American who owned it. I didn’t need the Spanish, only to talk to the employees to ask them what they were doing, how long it took them to do this, because I ended up redesigning his factory for him because he had grown so quickly that his production facility was a mess. So I told him and he asked me to redesign it. So I did.

[Assistant] Now wait, we’re jumping ahead here.

[User] We’re jumping ahead. We were left on languages.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And at home was English the language?

[User] Yes. My father's mother spoke only Polish.

[Assistant] Did you pick any up pick up any of the Polish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’re jumping ahead. We were left on languages.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. And at home was English the language?

[User] Yes. My father's mother spoke only Polish.

[Assistant] Did you pick any up pick up any of the Polish?

[User] Very little, yeah.

[Assistant] Jak się masz.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. My father's mother spoke only Polish.

[Assistant] Did you pick any up pick up any of the Polish?

[User] Very little, yeah.

[Assistant] Jak się masz.

[User] Jak się masz. Spać. That was my grandmother’s. Whenever she got tired of our noise, she would say spać.

[Assistant] Spać. Go to sleep. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very little, yeah.

[Assistant] Jak się masz.

[User] Jak się masz. Spać. That was my grandmother’s. Whenever she got tired of our noise, she would say spać.

[Assistant] Spać. Go to sleep. Yeah.

[User] And she had little patience. So that was about all we understand.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And what sort of stuff did you do in high school? Extracurricular?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jak się masz. Spać. That was my grandmother’s. Whenever she got tired of our noise, she would say spać.

[Assistant] Spać. Go to sleep. Yeah.

[User] And she had little patience. So that was about all we understand.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And what sort of stuff did you do in high school? Extracurricular?

[User] Oh I played football and athletics. I did the pole vault well and in football I played junior varsity because unfortunately for most of my time in high school, I was small. I started out in high school at four foot nine, seventy pounds, and I graduated at five feet and 100 pounds. But I love football, so I had to play and I did.

[Assistant] One would not know this about you now. You're not.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she had little patience. So that was about all we understand.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And what sort of stuff did you do in high school? Extracurricular?

[User] Oh I played football and athletics. I did the pole vault well and in football I played junior varsity because unfortunately for most of my time in high school, I was small. I started out in high school at four foot nine, seventy pounds, and I graduated at five feet and 100 pounds. But I love football, so I had to play and I did.

[Assistant] One would not know this about you now. You're not.

[User] No, I'm not that anymore. I grew after high school. But that's why they gave me the vault because nobody else would do it and I did. The highest height I did was eleven and a half feet, when I was four foot ten. So I thought it was a good achievement.

[Assistant] No kidding. That’s cool.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh I played football and athletics. I did the pole vault well and in football I played junior varsity because unfortunately for most of my time in high school, I was small. I started out in high school at four foot nine, seventy pounds, and I graduated at five feet and 100 pounds. But I love football, so I had to play and I did.

[Assistant] One would not know this about you now. You're not.

[User] No, I'm not that anymore. I grew after high school. But that's why they gave me the vault because nobody else would do it and I did. The highest height I did was eleven and a half feet, when I was four foot ten. So I thought it was a good achievement.

[Assistant] No kidding. That’s cool.

[User] And all always like all-American kids, we played all this baseball and stuff like that. I didn't play that for the high school team. But I did that in university. No, I did play those sports again.

[Assistant] Before we get into the university, did your family did your family take vacations, did your pile on that car?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I'm not that anymore. I grew after high school. But that's why they gave me the vault because nobody else would do it and I did. The highest height I did was eleven and a half feet, when I was four foot ten. So I thought it was a good achievement.

[Assistant] No kidding. That’s cool.

[User] And all always like all-American kids, we played all this baseball and stuff like that. I didn't play that for the high school team. But I did that in university. No, I did play those sports again.

[Assistant] Before we get into the university, did your family did your family take vacations, did your pile on that car?

[User] Yeah, we went to Kansas City where my mother came from. I would say from the time that I was 6 or 8 on our first trip to, um, I was in high school, we went two or three times to Kansas City by road.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Stopping along the way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And all always like all-American kids, we played all this baseball and stuff like that. I didn't play that for the high school team. But I did that in university. No, I did play those sports again.

[Assistant] Before we get into the university, did your family did your family take vacations, did your pile on that car?

[User] Yeah, we went to Kansas City where my mother came from. I would say from the time that I was 6 or 8 on our first trip to, um, I was in high school, we went two or three times to Kansas City by road.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Stopping along the way?

[User] Stopping once or twice. Not much, because every time you stopped it cost you money.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. No motels?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we went to Kansas City where my mother came from. I would say from the time that I was 6 or 8 on our first trip to, um, I was in high school, we went two or three times to Kansas City by road.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Stopping along the way?

[User] Stopping once or twice. Not much, because every time you stopped it cost you money.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. No motels?

[User] No, can't afford it.

[Assistant] Yeah. But in terms of international travel that was out of the picture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Stopping once or twice. Not much, because every time you stopped it cost you money.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. No motels?

[User] No, can't afford it.

[Assistant] Yeah. But in terms of international travel that was out of the picture?

[User] Not at that time. Thank you.

[Assistant] We've just been given bottles of water. I can’t open it either.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, can't afford it.

[Assistant] Yeah. But in terms of international travel that was out of the picture?

[User] Not at that time. Thank you.

[Assistant] We've just been given bottles of water. I can’t open it either.

[User] I don’t open things well.

[Assistant] Ok, so summer vacations, when you were in high school, when you had summer break, do you have a summer job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at that time. Thank you.

[Assistant] We've just been given bottles of water. I can’t open it either.

[User] I don’t open things well.

[Assistant] Ok, so summer vacations, when you were in high school, when you had summer break, do you have a summer job?

[User] I was a newspaper boy from the time I was 11. I had my own route in the neighborhood. I delivered the morning paper and the Sunday paper.

[Assistant] So before school, you were on your bicycle running around?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t open things well.

[Assistant] Ok, so summer vacations, when you were in high school, when you had summer break, do you have a summer job?

[User] I was a newspaper boy from the time I was 11. I had my own route in the neighborhood. I delivered the morning paper and the Sunday paper.

[Assistant] So before school, you were on your bicycle running around?

[User] Yeah. Or sled, depending on the snow season. But I did that.

[Assistant] And then at some point you decide you want to go to college. Had your parents been to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a newspaper boy from the time I was 11. I had my own route in the neighborhood. I delivered the morning paper and the Sunday paper.

[Assistant] So before school, you were on your bicycle running around?

[User] Yeah. Or sled, depending on the snow season. But I did that.

[Assistant] And then at some point you decide you want to go to college. Had your parents been to college?

[User] No, no. I'm the first one to go to university in my family. That's why I had to work. Because my father was a radio engineer and he had a lot of kids so I realized he couldn't afford it. In fact, from the second year in high school, I paid my tuition with my newspaper route.

[Assistant] Your high school tuition at Sacred Heart?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Or sled, depending on the snow season. But I did that.

[Assistant] And then at some point you decide you want to go to college. Had your parents been to college?

[User] No, no. I'm the first one to go to university in my family. That's why I had to work. Because my father was a radio engineer and he had a lot of kids so I realized he couldn't afford it. In fact, from the second year in high school, I paid my tuition with my newspaper route.

[Assistant] Your high school tuition at Sacred Heart?

[User] Yeah. And then I did one year in the factory and then the second year in the factory, I did night school at Newhaven University of Southern Connecticut. So I worked from 7:00 in the morning until 3:30.

[Assistant] And what kind of factory?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I'm the first one to go to university in my family. That's why I had to work. Because my father was a radio engineer and he had a lot of kids so I realized he couldn't afford it. In fact, from the second year in high school, I paid my tuition with my newspaper route.

[Assistant] Your high school tuition at Sacred Heart?

[User] Yeah. And then I did one year in the factory and then the second year in the factory, I did night school at Newhaven University of Southern Connecticut. So I worked from 7:00 in the morning until 3:30.

[Assistant] And what kind of factory?

[User] Wheeler Electronics. They made electronical components for other things. And I was in the material handling department, which means I go to the stockroom and get the pieces that people need to make their things. So I was up and down all over the place.

[Assistant] So you did that for?