[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Little did I know. Now, all those people probably don’t work anymore. They are retired and they just screw around on the Web. They don’t get anything done all day. <smile>

[Assistant] Or all the answers are on the Web now.

[User] It’s true, it’s absolutely true. All of the smart people that work here at Tietronix, and a couple of them, I can just ask them anything and they’ll just come up, they know just how to fix my computer, for example. This thing is doing this, how do I fix it? It was a big eye-opening one day, he sat down at my computer and he said, “Oh, yes, I see.” He goes to Google and types it in, and he types it in a natural language, and he types like just like I was talking to it myself—how do you get something to la-di-da? It comes back with about 1,700 different ways to do it. I thought, “I could have done that.”

[Assistant] You too were as smart.

[User] Truly, there’s no handbook anymore. It’s just ask it and it’s there somewhere. You pick up the one that you already know, or a new one, possibly, because it’ll all come up different ways. It is the most marvelous thing. On the other hand, of course, I always think, there was a short story by somebody, [Robert A.] Heinlein or somebody, about all of the memory. It was like libraries, it was all becoming electronic, and then they found ways to make it smaller because it was just changing electrons around the ring of the thing of it, that’s how they did it. They got it down smaller until finally, some subatomic particle has all this stuff, everything that people know. The whole memory of the world is in something about the size of a six-inch cube. Then, they forgot the password.

[Assistant] Can’t Google that, can you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There you go, start over. It was just funny. That’s what I always think of, that story of everything is just getting it smaller and more portable. Just your phone because it’s a conduit out to all that stuff, but you can ask it anything. Now, you can talk to it. In fact, what’s funny is when you talk to it, you have to use its pronunciation because if you try to get somebody’s name, “Call Rebecca,” of course, it’ll say, “Which Rebecca?” I don’t have any except you and one other in the whole world, but it does that to me all the time. Or it will say, my in-laws’ name, it’s Czech, Hradecky, but it starts with an H. The name, it comes back, the pronunciation of that word is so strange, so I have to say what it wants me to say, to have someone call Randy Hecky, you know?

[Assistant] You’re being trained by a phone?

[User] Exactly. I’m changing my words so I can talk to this.

[Assistant] Explain to us, because the Shuttle was still being put together and systems had the possibility of being tweaked or switched around, you didn’t have any concrete material to work with when you were developing all these, how were you able to get the information that you needed to start designing the Single System Trainers and that type of information that you needed to train the people who were going to be using it?

[User] It’s interesting, there. I was going to double-back on that because once we started with the catalogue, that is, with the flow, that gave a structure to it, but then the hard work started, you had to build all that training for the crew. It’s almost funny because you get back to the book—remember on Apollo, we had one book?

[Assistant] Yes. That everybody got a section of, originally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Different people had different reactions. In my group, I hired almost every woman I could find. If they were offered to me, you’d bring them in and talk to them and pick them up. I got so many good people—Janice [E.] Voss worked for me as a co-op and then as an instructor before she got to be an astronaut. Jim [James H.] Newman came in, went through, a lot of them, George used me as a staging point. If he found somebody that he didn’t go hire as an astronaut this year, suddenly I’d get a call and say, “I’ve got a guy for you.”

[Assistant] You knew your purpose, huh?

[User] Exactly. It was funny because slots on some service are controlled by the Congress, we don’t get to just do whatever. I said, “Well, what do you want to do with them?” In those days, I had McDonnell, Ford, and Rockwell slots, instructors working for me, as it came together.\n\n He said, “I’ve talked to McDonnell and they’ll give him a job, or her a job.” Okay! No problem with me, I get a new good person here, and so I put them to work. You know that two years later, or every year, they were applying to become astronauts. Suddenly, get them the word, and they said they’re going. You’re just happy to have them as long as you could, and they did good work on the way. Janice was great. Newman, I say those two names because I was close to them. In fact, I was single at that time, and I would go on vacations, and I hired them to stay at my house. My kids always talk about [how] some of their babysitters were astronauts.

[Assistant] They were raised by the best, huh?

[User] Exactly. Not a bad deal.

[Assistant] Not for anybody, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. It was funny because slots on some service are controlled by the Congress, we don’t get to just do whatever. I said, “Well, what do you want to do with them?” In those days, I had McDonnell, Ford, and Rockwell slots, instructors working for me, as it came together.\n\n He said, “I’ve talked to McDonnell and they’ll give him a job, or her a job.” Okay! No problem with me, I get a new good person here, and so I put them to work. You know that two years later, or every year, they were applying to become astronauts. Suddenly, get them the word, and they said they’re going. You’re just happy to have them as long as you could, and they did good work on the way. Janice was great. Newman, I say those two names because I was close to them. In fact, I was single at that time, and I would go on vacations, and I hired them to stay at my house. My kids always talk about [how] some of their babysitters were astronauts.

[Assistant] They were raised by the best, huh?

[User] Exactly. Not a bad deal.

[Assistant] Not for anybody, yes.

[User] Quality people, you didn’t have to worry about some 13-year-old kid down the street burning down the house; I'd have some 26-year-old Ph.D. quasi-astronaut

[Assistant] Had different concerns, yes. You controlled their future though because I’m sure that the right word from you helped a long way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Not a bad deal.

[Assistant] Not for anybody, yes.

[User] Quality people, you didn’t have to worry about some 13-year-old kid down the street burning down the house; I'd have some 26-year-old Ph.D. quasi-astronaut

[Assistant] Had different concerns, yes. You controlled their future though because I’m sure that the right word from you helped a long way.

[User] I gave them the right words for sure. It was an interesting time because I’ve always had a big open house kind of thing in my place, I always go through and say, like, right now I’m saying around here, “Who’s available for Thanksgiving dinner?” Some of these kids are from all over the world, and they can maybe go home for Christmas, but they’re not going home Thanksgiving, too. I said, “Come on over if you want.” I used to joke about it, my kids never quite know who the hell was coming for Thanksgiving. It was always interesting, though.

[Assistant] That’s right, it’s life not dull, that’s for sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Quality people, you didn’t have to worry about some 13-year-old kid down the street burning down the house; I'd have some 26-year-old Ph.D. quasi-astronaut

[Assistant] Had different concerns, yes. You controlled their future though because I’m sure that the right word from you helped a long way.

[User] I gave them the right words for sure. It was an interesting time because I’ve always had a big open house kind of thing in my place, I always go through and say, like, right now I’m saying around here, “Who’s available for Thanksgiving dinner?” Some of these kids are from all over the world, and they can maybe go home for Christmas, but they’re not going home Thanksgiving, too. I said, “Come on over if you want.” I used to joke about it, my kids never quite know who the hell was coming for Thanksgiving. It was always interesting, though.

[Assistant] That’s right, it’s life not dull, that’s for sure.

[User] That’s it, that’s it.

[Assistant] Finally, STS-1 was ready to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I was part of that, so that was rewarding.

[Assistant] Absolutely. That is very rewarding. They certainly did do a good job.

[User] Well, thanks. It was a lot of good people.

[Assistant] A lot of people had to bring it all together.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Going back to Gemini, you mentioned the Gemini mission simulators and the dynamic crew procedure simulator. The Gemini also was doing a lot to train for EVAs. They had a lot of problems with the EVAs at first, not realizing the intricacies of working in microgravity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, thanks. It was a lot of good people.

[Assistant] A lot of people had to bring it all together.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Going back to Gemini, you mentioned the Gemini mission simulators and the dynamic crew procedure simulator. The Gemini also was doing a lot to train for EVAs. They had a lot of problems with the EVAs at first, not realizing the intricacies of working in microgravity.

[User] Yes. That is a good point.

[Assistant] What did you work on there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we were, as we should have been, closely scrutinized on that. We probably didn't run as good a simulation as we should have on a stuck thruster. We looked through all the records of how much training he'd had and it turned out to be probably minimum. He had some training in that area, but the fact that he didn't immediately recognize that he had a stuck thruster, and before the thing started getting out of control was an indication that we probably didn't do an adequate job there, and we accepted that. Thank goodness we lived through it and benefited by all that, although it was not too rewarding to know that we could have saved him a lot of anxiety and risked his safety.

[Assistant] He'd had enough other training to be able to keep his cool and figure out the right thing to do.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Well, if we could go ahead and take a break here.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] We'll change the tape out.\n\n Working in simulations, you worked very closely with the flight crews, and you had mentioned you'd like to maybe tell us a little bit about that and working with them and some of the astronauts and how that all went.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Richard G.] Dick Snyder was another one. Did you talk to him, by the way?

[Assistant] No, not yet.

[User] I'm not sure of his whereabouts. Dick was an assistant to Stan in mission simulations. When I retired, he was at headquarters, so you might start there if you're interested to know his whereabouts.

[Assistant] Sure. We're always interested in adding to our projects and always looking for new people who are interested in participating. We depend on you guys a lot to tell us.

[User] Have you talked with Tommy Holloway yet?

[Assistant] Not about the early days. We did talk to him in conjunction with the Shuttle-Mir project [International Space Station Phase I], I believe.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm not sure of his whereabouts. Dick was an assistant to Stan in mission simulations. When I retired, he was at headquarters, so you might start there if you're interested to know his whereabouts.

[Assistant] Sure. We're always interested in adding to our projects and always looking for new people who are interested in participating. We depend on you guys a lot to tell us.

[User] Have you talked with Tommy Holloway yet?

[Assistant] Not about the early days. We did talk to him in conjunction with the Shuttle-Mir project [International Space Station Phase I], I believe.

[User] Oh, yes. Great man.

[Assistant] Yes, we'd like to go back and talk to him some more about these days.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Have you talked with Tommy Holloway yet?

[Assistant] Not about the early days. We did talk to him in conjunction with the Shuttle-Mir project [International Space Station Phase I], I believe.

[User] Oh, yes. Great man.

[Assistant] Yes, we'd like to go back and talk to him some more about these days.

[User] I bet he'd like to do that.

[Assistant] I'm sure he would. You mentioned the visuals and the pictures for the landing. Were you involved with the lunar landing training vehicle at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. Great man.

[Assistant] Yes, we'd like to go back and talk to him some more about these days.

[User] I bet he'd like to do that.

[Assistant] I'm sure he would. You mentioned the visuals and the pictures for the landing. Were you involved with the lunar landing training vehicle at all?

[User] Not really. We followed that pretty closely. Our training coordinators would schedule the crew's time on it and so forth. I got a little bit more interested in it after Neil had to bail out of the one out at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas], and I watched quite a few of those flights. I had some good friends that worked out there at Ellington and worked on that project. But on the support of it or the mission control or anything like that, no, we did not.\n\n I take that back. We had an LLTV [Lunar Landing Training Vehicle] simulator that we provided, sure enough, under Wayne [K.] Williams. We ran that as long as they were flying LLTVs, that's correct. I'd forgotten about that. That was an almost oversight. It was a fair simulation of it [the LLTV mission task and dynamics]. It was a kind of a minimum simulation [from the standpoint of the LLTV instrumentation], but we had to simulate the lunar rocket [motor] that took up [five-sixths] of the G of the spacecraft and then [correctly simulated the dynamics] when it went into a lunar mode. So we simulated that, the [operation and dynamic] environment [of the LLTV] in our training vehicle [simulator]. I think it was useful. There was a certain number of hours required on that [simulator] before they flew the actual vehicle.

[Assistant] From what we've seen, it was a useful thing, although it was challenge.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I bet he'd like to do that.

[Assistant] I'm sure he would. You mentioned the visuals and the pictures for the landing. Were you involved with the lunar landing training vehicle at all?

[User] Not really. We followed that pretty closely. Our training coordinators would schedule the crew's time on it and so forth. I got a little bit more interested in it after Neil had to bail out of the one out at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas], and I watched quite a few of those flights. I had some good friends that worked out there at Ellington and worked on that project. But on the support of it or the mission control or anything like that, no, we did not.\n\n I take that back. We had an LLTV [Lunar Landing Training Vehicle] simulator that we provided, sure enough, under Wayne [K.] Williams. We ran that as long as they were flying LLTVs, that's correct. I'd forgotten about that. That was an almost oversight. It was a fair simulation of it [the LLTV mission task and dynamics]. It was a kind of a minimum simulation [from the standpoint of the LLTV instrumentation], but we had to simulate the lunar rocket [motor] that took up [five-sixths] of the G of the spacecraft and then [correctly simulated the dynamics] when it went into a lunar mode. So we simulated that, the [operation and dynamic] environment [of the LLTV] in our training vehicle [simulator]. I think it was useful. There was a certain number of hours required on that [simulator] before they flew the actual vehicle.

[Assistant] From what we've seen, it was a useful thing, although it was challenge.

[User] Yes, boy, I'll tell you, that was challenged quite a few times on why we'd taken these risks to fly that. The flight crews wouldn't let go of it, from Deke on down. They just thought it was the best training you'd get of the final lunar touchdown, landing touchdown, as you could get, and I think that turned out to be the case. It was quite useful.

[Assistant] Well, luckily everything did go okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, absolutely thrilling. Couldn't believe it. My mother, I think this is accurate, of course, we'll never know, but I think she died thinking that we staged all that. She was not convinced we landed on the moon. I told her, I said, "Would I lie to you?" I said, "We actually did that." She says, "No." But there were other people than my mother that believed that, that that was not for real. But it was hard being there at the time of imagining what was going on, and then how close we came to blowing off that landing, and working [the problems] through, having the people with the right savvy on the ground to work with the flight crew and saying, "Press on and go ahead and land," and then doing it successfully. All the hardware worked as designed and bringing them back. Great times. Absolutely. Biggest thing of my lifetime.

[Assistant] It must have been quite an experience.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Good to know that all that training that the crews had had, the flight crews and the controllers, than even when they did have these problems and what would happen, that they were still able to make the landing.

[User] You bet. You bet.

[Assistant] As the Apollo program was coming to an end, did you think about it much at the time that here was the end of going to the moon, and the end of all this excitement that you had all had working on for so many years, or were you ready to move on to the next program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. One problem we didn't anticipate as well as we should have was the landing of the Shuttle, the power-off dead-stick landing and the steep descent prior to that. [Jack R.] Lousma got into a problem of a PIO, pilot-induced oscillation, in the final phases of when he flew during the early Shuttle test. It wasn't a new [aerodynamics] problem. A lot of airplanes, when you [encounter] the ground effects…close to the ground [during] your touchdown, why, you get into a critical part of the landing [trying to make] sure that you anticipate…the dynamics the best you know [them] and don't aggravate those [dynamics with] wrong inputs…of your own…a pilot-induced oscillation.\n\n Lousma had a very critical phase of that landing where it [the Shuttle Orbiter] had touched down and then it took off, and it looked like it was going to be airborne again, and they made the final touchdown. But he was getting into a pretty good dynamics problem there, [however he] was able to get through that. Our simulation wasn't up to snuff on that. We added quite a bit of the ground effects factors to our simulation, we were able to repeat the problem that he encountered. They were using the Shuttle Training Aircraft also [for training in this critical area]. I guess that maybe [the STA] was a little bit [later]—no, they had at least one airplane configured for that.\n\n I used to like to go out [to] Joe Algranti in aircraft ops [in Ellington Field] and talk to those people, both on the LLTV and the Shuttle training aircraft. I've got a lot of longtime friends out there. Joe was always nice to me, too. [Laughter]

[Assistant] That's always good.

[User] Yes. Have you interviewed him?

[Assistant] We have. We have interviewed him.

[User] I didn't know he was in town. Shucks.

[Assistant] Well, he's not in town.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Have you interviewed him?

[Assistant] We have. We have interviewed him.

[User] I didn't know he was in town. Shucks.

[Assistant] Well, he's not in town.

[User] Oh, you had to go there?

[Assistant] Yes, North Carolina, in fact.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you had to go there?

[Assistant] Yes, North Carolina, in fact.

[User] Well, that little sucker, he wouldn't come here?

[Assistant] Well—

[User] You don't mind?

[Assistant] Yes, we don't mind. It gives us the chance to see places we haven't seen before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that little sucker, he wouldn't come here?

[Assistant] Well—

[User] You don't mind?

[Assistant] Yes, we don't mind. It gives us the chance to see places we haven't seen before.

[User] Yes, I'll be darned.

[Assistant] Sometimes it's easier for us to go and other times it's easier for people to come here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You don't mind?

[Assistant] Yes, we don't mind. It gives us the chance to see places we haven't seen before.

[User] Yes, I'll be darned.

[Assistant] Sometimes it's easier for us to go and other times it's easier for people to come here.

[User] Isn't he a neat guy?

[Assistant] Very. Very neat.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I'll be darned.

[Assistant] Sometimes it's easier for us to go and other times it's easier for people to come here.

[User] Isn't he a neat guy?

[Assistant] Very. Very neat.

[User] Gracious man. I think he started at [Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], too, if I'm not wrong. He and Warren North, I think they were both. But I've known Joe [for sometime]—when I was on the X-15 program I met Joe, and then [later] when he was running aircraft ops down here, when I came to Johnson, I had quite a few associations with him, and really good.

[Assistant] That's good.\n\n Actually, jumping back a step to Skylab, were you involved in any simulations or training after they had launched Skylab and they had the problems, the heat shield and the solar panel? Were you involved in any of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Isn't he a neat guy?

[Assistant] Very. Very neat.

[User] Gracious man. I think he started at [Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], too, if I'm not wrong. He and Warren North, I think they were both. But I've known Joe [for sometime]—when I was on the X-15 program I met Joe, and then [later] when he was running aircraft ops down here, when I came to Johnson, I had quite a few associations with him, and really good.

[Assistant] That's good.\n\n Actually, jumping back a step to Skylab, were you involved in any simulations or training after they had launched Skylab and they had the problems, the heat shield and the solar panel? Were you involved in any of that?

[User] We provided some of the—see, our simulator, the Skylab's simulator that we had was more how to activate, was used to activate the systems and then deactivate when they were getting ready to leave. But I would say that the bulk of the training of on-orbit operations and experiments and this heat shield thing that you mentioned and the solar panels and what have you, that was done in the full-scale mockups that were under Lou [Ludie G.] Richards and Dean Grimm as a division chief. We were aware and kept in touch with what was going on there, and made sure that if we ought to be doing something to our part of the ground simulations, that we would fill that square. I would say that the majority of that was done in the mockups, in the redesign of the solar umbrella or whatever, to fix that problem. That was done over in the mockups. Jack [A.] Kinzler was very much involved in that. Good man.

[Assistant] We've been fortunate enough to talk to him, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Gracious man. I think he started at [Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], too, if I'm not wrong. He and Warren North, I think they were both. But I've known Joe [for sometime]—when I was on the X-15 program I met Joe, and then [later] when he was running aircraft ops down here, when I came to Johnson, I had quite a few associations with him, and really good.

[Assistant] That's good.\n\n Actually, jumping back a step to Skylab, were you involved in any simulations or training after they had launched Skylab and they had the problems, the heat shield and the solar panel? Were you involved in any of that?

[User] We provided some of the—see, our simulator, the Skylab's simulator that we had was more how to activate, was used to activate the systems and then deactivate when they were getting ready to leave. But I would say that the bulk of the training of on-orbit operations and experiments and this heat shield thing that you mentioned and the solar panels and what have you, that was done in the full-scale mockups that were under Lou [Ludie G.] Richards and Dean Grimm as a division chief. We were aware and kept in touch with what was going on there, and made sure that if we ought to be doing something to our part of the ground simulations, that we would fill that square. I would say that the majority of that was done in the mockups, in the redesign of the solar umbrella or whatever, to fix that problem. That was done over in the mockups. Jack [A.] Kinzler was very much involved in that. Good man.

[Assistant] We've been fortunate enough to talk to him, too.

[User] I'll bet he was a gracious man, too.

[Assistant] Very much so. Very much so.\n\n Looking at Apollo-Soyuz, you mentioned that a little bit, and, of course, you've talked about Deke Slayton. It must have been rewarding to see him finally get a chance to fly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We provided some of the—see, our simulator, the Skylab's simulator that we had was more how to activate, was used to activate the systems and then deactivate when they were getting ready to leave. But I would say that the bulk of the training of on-orbit operations and experiments and this heat shield thing that you mentioned and the solar panels and what have you, that was done in the full-scale mockups that were under Lou [Ludie G.] Richards and Dean Grimm as a division chief. We were aware and kept in touch with what was going on there, and made sure that if we ought to be doing something to our part of the ground simulations, that we would fill that square. I would say that the majority of that was done in the mockups, in the redesign of the solar umbrella or whatever, to fix that problem. That was done over in the mockups. Jack [A.] Kinzler was very much involved in that. Good man.

[Assistant] We've been fortunate enough to talk to him, too.

[User] I'll bet he was a gracious man, too.

[Assistant] Very much so. Very much so.\n\n Looking at Apollo-Soyuz, you mentioned that a little bit, and, of course, you've talked about Deke Slayton. It must have been rewarding to see him finally get a chance to fly.

[User] Yes, it was. His whole outlook in life changed. [Laughter] He was so glad to get a flight.

[Assistant] That's great. What was your involvement in the training for that? What were the challenges of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll bet he was a gracious man, too.

[Assistant] Very much so. Very much so.\n\n Looking at Apollo-Soyuz, you mentioned that a little bit, and, of course, you've talked about Deke Slayton. It must have been rewarding to see him finally get a chance to fly.

[User] Yes, it was. His whole outlook in life changed. [Laughter] He was so glad to get a flight.

[Assistant] That's great. What was your involvement in the training for that? What were the challenges of training?

[User] Just from the command module operation standpoint. We had the Apollo-Soyuz model in the simulator so we could train for the docking with it. Then the mockup guys would do the transfers and the walk-throughs for the EVAs, for the crew transfers and that combined operation. I got to meet the Russian crew. Let's see, I guess I met both of them. That was good, too, Deke trying to talk in Russian. They were much better at talking English than our crews were at talking Russian, although Tom Stafford got pretty darn good. He was very good at it. Deke, I shouldn't say he didn't never master it, but— [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, it's certainly a challenging language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think you should. I think you'd enjoy that. Jim, he's quite a character.

[Assistant] We'll look forward to it, then.

[User] Yes. Yes, I owe a lot of thanks in my career to him.\n\n After I quit Eagle, and I'm sorry I don't remember what those dates were, but that was the last time. My wife was still working for Enron Gas and Oil in Houston, for, I guess, four or five months, something like that, but then she planned to retire and did retire at the end of the year. I can't remember what that date was. '87, I think.\n\n Then about that time we moved up to Houston County Lake, up near Crockett, where we are now. We settled into a small house when we first moved, but then got a larger house, have been very happy up there. Been in good health, thank goodness, for both of us.

[Assistant] That's very good. Good to hear.

[User] Thank you. This is a good time recalling a lot of those old things. I thought it would be fun and it was.

[Assistant] Good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's been fun for us, too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, I owe a lot of thanks in my career to him.\n\n After I quit Eagle, and I'm sorry I don't remember what those dates were, but that was the last time. My wife was still working for Enron Gas and Oil in Houston, for, I guess, four or five months, something like that, but then she planned to retire and did retire at the end of the year. I can't remember what that date was. '87, I think.\n\n Then about that time we moved up to Houston County Lake, up near Crockett, where we are now. We settled into a small house when we first moved, but then got a larger house, have been very happy up there. Been in good health, thank goodness, for both of us.

[Assistant] That's very good. Good to hear.

[User] Thank you. This is a good time recalling a lot of those old things. I thought it would be fun and it was.

[Assistant] Good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's been fun for us, too.

[User] Well, good.

[Assistant] Just a couple last things and then we can finish up, if that's all right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. This is a good time recalling a lot of those old things. I thought it would be fun and it was.

[Assistant] Good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's been fun for us, too.

[User] Well, good.

[Assistant] Just a couple last things and then we can finish up, if that's all right.

[User] You bet.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you consider your biggest challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think it was in simulator development, I think in defining what we wanted to do or needed to do to accomplish there and then to be able to pull it off and then seeing all the results of that through Apollo, the first Apollo landing, especially. I'd like to think that I contributed to that, because it was very rewarding. So it had to be in the simulator area. That was from my perspective.

[Assistant] You certainly had a lot to contribute.

[User] Had a lot of good help.

[Assistant] That's great. Well, I'll ask Kevin and Rob real briefly if they have any questions as we tie off here.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant]
Kevin?

Yes, I had a couple. First of all, I was thinking about the Apollo simulations and I was wondering if you could maybe kind of run us through one of those, like when you go to do a sim with a crew, like an integrated sim with the mission control, who's doing what? I mean, what are you and your people responsible for, and the simulation supervisor, working in the control center, that type of thing. I was wondering if you could just kind of take us through a generic run of one of those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, gee whiz. The whole program got more serious about launching during thunderstorms and how to predict lightning. It was a good lesson that thankfully we lived through.

[Assistant] He was saying that actually as a result of an accident in one of these simulations that he had seen his displays before that there was a low-power situation at one of the Cape simulators that caused his displays to do exactly what they did during the lightning strike, and just because he had been on console a year earlier when that happened, he recognized that and was able to take the proper actions.

[User] Standby, [at least for the flight crew].

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Good point.

[Assistant] Yes, and do the SCE, the auxs, or whatever, just do the Signal Conditioning Equipment because of this simulation that had been run.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Standby, [at least for the flight crew].

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Good point.

[Assistant] Yes, and do the SCE, the auxs, or whatever, just do the Signal Conditioning Equipment because of this simulation that had been run.

[User] See, we always thought we caused a lot of problems when our simulator bombed. We didn't realize that somebody was getting some benefit from that.

[Assistant] Yes, because of that he was able to make the right call within seconds.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good point.

[Assistant] Yes, and do the SCE, the auxs, or whatever, just do the Signal Conditioning Equipment because of this simulation that had been run.

[User] See, we always thought we caused a lot of problems when our simulator bombed. We didn't realize that somebody was getting some benefit from that.

[Assistant] Yes, because of that he was able to make the right call within seconds.

[User] Great. Hey, that's good.

[Assistant]
That's all the questions I have. Thanks.

Rob?

Yes, I just have a couple of things. You were talking about the development of these simulators and getting the flight computers to talk to the simulator computers to talk to the mission control computers. All this had to be groundbreaking, and it's hard to imagine this highly advanced technology world we have without somebody having broken that ground. How did you all conceive of this and how did you all figure out, "We're going to need to connect all these systems"?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See, we always thought we caused a lot of problems when our simulator bombed. We didn't realize that somebody was getting some benefit from that.

[Assistant] Yes, because of that he was able to make the right call within seconds.

[User] Great. Hey, that's good.

[Assistant]
That's all the questions I have. Thanks.

Rob?

Yes, I just have a couple of things. You were talking about the development of these simulators and getting the flight computers to talk to the simulator computers to talk to the mission control computers. All this had to be groundbreaking, and it's hard to imagine this highly advanced technology world we have without somebody having broken that ground. How did you all conceive of this and how did you all figure out, "We're going to need to connect all these systems"?

[User] That was a key to the Apollo simulations, and once we made the decision to go with flight computers, we talked very quickly with IBM to whether they could provide the hardware and the software on a basis that would support that decision and also help us with the design of those interface devices between our Univac ground computers. I guess they were Univac at that time. I think so. But how the actual flight computers would interface with the ground computers or the simulation computers. They had extremely good, high technical help there, we did from IBM. It was great. Yes, it was, it was the first time in that aspect, in that area, for that.

[Assistant] Was anybody running anything similar from your office there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] We appreciate you coming and sharing it with us today. It's been very interesting.

[User] Like I said, I looked forward to it, and it was even more fun than I thought it would be. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Good.

[User] You're awfully nice people to say those things.

[Assistant] Thank you. Thank you, you're very nice to come share it all with us.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Originally, 9 North, which is the middle section of the building, was built in the mid-70s, I believe. It started out with an FFT [Full Fuselage Trainer] and a CCT [Crew Compartment Trainer], and then they had a cargo bay with a Canadian arm on it. Then around the mid to late ‘80s, the 9 Northwest section was added, and then in the early ‘90s the East section of the building was added. The West section was basically set up for [the International Space] Station. The center of the building, which is 9 North, is still set up for Shuttle. Then the East end of the building is set up for the engineering, ER [mail code for the Software, Robotics, and Simulation Division], which is basically, I guess, research and development for robotics.

[Assistant] Is any portion of that used for Space Shuttle?

[User] They do have an arm down there, but I think it’s more of a Station arm. The Canadarm was, I guess, retired and excessed. I don't know where it went. I’m sure it wasn’t destroyed or anything, because it was in this building since probably the early ‘80s or even before that.

[Assistant] Can you tell us how the Space Vehicle Mockup Facility supported the Space Shuttle Program and continues to support it to this day?

[User] Well, they have the FFT, which is the Full Fuselage Trainer. They have the cockpit, the middeck, and the lower deck. They have the cargo bay. They do a lot of working with cameras from the cockpit with the cargo bay. Then the CCT is basically a cockpit for training, and then now we also have the CCTII, and it’s a cockpit. It can actually go vertical. A couple of times a year, we turn it 180 degrees and we do a nose-down training, which is pretty well just a class that they go in and kind of orientate theirself inside of the cockpit in a nose-dive configuration. They don’t really get in and strap down in the seats and go through it like that.

[Assistant] Does each mission participate in training in this building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They do have an arm down there, but I think it’s more of a Station arm. The Canadarm was, I guess, retired and excessed. I don't know where it went. I’m sure it wasn’t destroyed or anything, because it was in this building since probably the early ‘80s or even before that.

[Assistant] Can you tell us how the Space Vehicle Mockup Facility supported the Space Shuttle Program and continues to support it to this day?

[User] Well, they have the FFT, which is the Full Fuselage Trainer. They have the cockpit, the middeck, and the lower deck. They have the cargo bay. They do a lot of working with cameras from the cockpit with the cargo bay. Then the CCT is basically a cockpit for training, and then now we also have the CCTII, and it’s a cockpit. It can actually go vertical. A couple of times a year, we turn it 180 degrees and we do a nose-down training, which is pretty well just a class that they go in and kind of orientate theirself inside of the cockpit in a nose-dive configuration. They don’t really get in and strap down in the seats and go through it like that.

[Assistant] Does each mission participate in training in this building?

[User] Oh, yes. You have your crew, which is training for whatever flight they’re on, and then you have prime crew. They come in, the prime crew, for anything that they’ve missed along for their training that’s required. Sometimes they have last minute training before they go into quarantine; actually, this week we do have some of those classes. That’s pretty well as far as the Shuttle.

[Assistant] How long do these classes last, or simulations? Are they two different things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they have the FFT, which is the Full Fuselage Trainer. They have the cockpit, the middeck, and the lower deck. They have the cargo bay. They do a lot of working with cameras from the cockpit with the cargo bay. Then the CCT is basically a cockpit for training, and then now we also have the CCTII, and it’s a cockpit. It can actually go vertical. A couple of times a year, we turn it 180 degrees and we do a nose-down training, which is pretty well just a class that they go in and kind of orientate theirself inside of the cockpit in a nose-dive configuration. They don’t really get in and strap down in the seats and go through it like that.

[Assistant] Does each mission participate in training in this building?

[User] Oh, yes. You have your crew, which is training for whatever flight they’re on, and then you have prime crew. They come in, the prime crew, for anything that they’ve missed along for their training that’s required. Sometimes they have last minute training before they go into quarantine; actually, this week we do have some of those classes. That’s pretty well as far as the Shuttle.

[Assistant] How long do these classes last, or simulations? Are they two different things?

[User] Anywhere from an hour to, I would say, four or five hours. There are so many classes. I really couldn’t tell you all the classes. I do know they have a class that they go in and it takes a whole day to set the wiring harnesses up inside of the middeck, and they train on that. They have what we call a bail-out class, where they practice using their sky-genie, which is kind of a hardware that rappels off the top of the trainer for emergency escape. It’s an emergency escape class. They actually inflate the slide, and they slide out of the side hatch. I probably mentioned they do the camera stuff.

[Assistant] Is that the camera on the arm or the Hasselblad?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. You have your crew, which is training for whatever flight they’re on, and then you have prime crew. They come in, the prime crew, for anything that they’ve missed along for their training that’s required. Sometimes they have last minute training before they go into quarantine; actually, this week we do have some of those classes. That’s pretty well as far as the Shuttle.

[Assistant] How long do these classes last, or simulations? Are they two different things?

[User] Anywhere from an hour to, I would say, four or five hours. There are so many classes. I really couldn’t tell you all the classes. I do know they have a class that they go in and it takes a whole day to set the wiring harnesses up inside of the middeck, and they train on that. They have what we call a bail-out class, where they practice using their sky-genie, which is kind of a hardware that rappels off the top of the trainer for emergency escape. It’s an emergency escape class. They actually inflate the slide, and they slide out of the side hatch. I probably mentioned they do the camera stuff.

[Assistant] Is that the camera on the arm or the Hasselblad?

[User] There’s a camera that’s in the cargo bay of the FFT. I believe there might be two of them, aft and forward of the cargo bay.

[Assistant] Do they practice any sort of eating exercises or any other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anywhere from an hour to, I would say, four or five hours. There are so many classes. I really couldn’t tell you all the classes. I do know they have a class that they go in and it takes a whole day to set the wiring harnesses up inside of the middeck, and they train on that. They have what we call a bail-out class, where they practice using their sky-genie, which is kind of a hardware that rappels off the top of the trainer for emergency escape. It’s an emergency escape class. They actually inflate the slide, and they slide out of the side hatch. I probably mentioned they do the camera stuff.

[Assistant] Is that the camera on the arm or the Hasselblad?

[User] There’s a camera that’s in the cargo bay of the FFT. I believe there might be two of them, aft and forward of the cargo bay.

[Assistant] Do they practice any sort of eating exercises or any other?

[User] I think. I really don’t know. I don’t think they [do], as far as eating. I think maybe stowage, they do stowage type classes for packing and unpacking the stowage boxes inside of the Shuttle.

[Assistant] Can you tell us the difference, other than one of the CCTs can go vertical, are there any other differences between the two?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s a camera that’s in the cargo bay of the FFT. I believe there might be two of them, aft and forward of the cargo bay.

[Assistant] Do they practice any sort of eating exercises or any other?

[User] I think. I really don’t know. I don’t think they [do], as far as eating. I think maybe stowage, they do stowage type classes for packing and unpacking the stowage boxes inside of the Shuttle.

[Assistant] Can you tell us the difference, other than one of the CCTs can go vertical, are there any other differences between the two?

[User] CCT can go vertical. The CCTII, you can actually go vertical, which would be in a launch position, and then they have the descent, which would be nose-down. You could also put the CCT on the side and turn a side hatch up or a side hatch down. We’ve never done that class. There’s really been no need for it. Usually nose-up is the most configuration, other than just at its normal where it’s like it’s sitting on the runway. Other than that, pretty well nose-up would be the launch configuration. The FFT has the capability of going nose-up in a launch.

[Assistant] Does it really?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think. I really don’t know. I don’t think they [do], as far as eating. I think maybe stowage, they do stowage type classes for packing and unpacking the stowage boxes inside of the Shuttle.

[Assistant] Can you tell us the difference, other than one of the CCTs can go vertical, are there any other differences between the two?

[User] CCT can go vertical. The CCTII, you can actually go vertical, which would be in a launch position, and then they have the descent, which would be nose-down. You could also put the CCT on the side and turn a side hatch up or a side hatch down. We’ve never done that class. There’s really been no need for it. Usually nose-up is the most configuration, other than just at its normal where it’s like it’s sitting on the runway. Other than that, pretty well nose-up would be the launch configuration. The FFT has the capability of going nose-up in a launch.

[Assistant] Does it really?

[User] You have to separate it from the cargo bay, and you have to add some hardware to the back of the bulkhead. That part of it I don’t believe is around any more. We hung onto it, I believe, up to ten years ago. With the CCTI and CCTII being able to go vertical, really wasn’t any need to have that on the FFT anymore.

[Assistant] When the astronauts come here to train, are these integrated simulations, or are they just simulations in-house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] CCT can go vertical. The CCTII, you can actually go vertical, which would be in a launch position, and then they have the descent, which would be nose-down. You could also put the CCT on the side and turn a side hatch up or a side hatch down. We’ve never done that class. There’s really been no need for it. Usually nose-up is the most configuration, other than just at its normal where it’s like it’s sitting on the runway. Other than that, pretty well nose-up would be the launch configuration. The FFT has the capability of going nose-up in a launch.

[Assistant] Does it really?

[User] You have to separate it from the cargo bay, and you have to add some hardware to the back of the bulkhead. That part of it I don’t believe is around any more. We hung onto it, I believe, up to ten years ago. With the CCTI and CCTII being able to go vertical, really wasn’t any need to have that on the FFT anymore.

[Assistant] When the astronauts come here to train, are these integrated simulations, or are they just simulations in-house?

[User] They do integrated sims with mission control in, I believe, Building 5, if I’m not mistaken.

[Assistant] Are these motion-base simulators or are they fixed-base?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ours?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Fixed base.

[Assistant] In here?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Have there been any changes to any of the trainers since you first started working here in ’82?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fixed base.

[Assistant] In here?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Have there been any changes to any of the trainers since you first started working here in ’82?

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about those?

[User] I believe the CCT, the dash was changed. I want to say they called it Met Ops [phonetic] but I’m not for sure if that’s the right terminology. Clayton [H. Hamm] could tell you more of those kind of details. I do know we did some upgrades to the middeck in the FFT for structural purposes. That’s pretty well an all-wood trainer, made of all just wood, so we did some upgrades for floor-loading. The CCT, we took the airlock out of it because we no longer have an internal airlock inside the trainers. So after we lost—

[Assistant] Columbia?

[User] Yes,\n\n Columbia.

[Assistant] Were these trainers built in-house, or were they built by contractors?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I believe the CCT, the dash was changed. I want to say they called it Met Ops [phonetic] but I’m not for sure if that’s the right terminology. Clayton [H. Hamm] could tell you more of those kind of details. I do know we did some upgrades to the middeck in the FFT for structural purposes. That’s pretty well an all-wood trainer, made of all just wood, so we did some upgrades for floor-loading. The CCT, we took the airlock out of it because we no longer have an internal airlock inside the trainers. So after we lost—

[Assistant] Columbia?

[User] Yes,\n\n Columbia.

[Assistant] Were these trainers built in-house, or were they built by contractors?

[User] CCT, I believe, was built in 9 South. FFT was built in 9 South. CCTII was contracted through Johnson Engineering. They had the, I guess you could say, the aluminum shell built, and then it was shipped to Building 220, where the Johnson Engineering contract assembled all the internal components, the wire and harnesses, the seats, all the electronics. All that was done in-house, and then it was moved over here and there was some further work done.

[Assistant] Are the CCTs mainly made of aluminum, or are they also made of wood like the FFT?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes,\n\n Columbia.

[Assistant] Were these trainers built in-house, or were they built by contractors?

[User] CCT, I believe, was built in 9 South. FFT was built in 9 South. CCTII was contracted through Johnson Engineering. They had the, I guess you could say, the aluminum shell built, and then it was shipped to Building 220, where the Johnson Engineering contract assembled all the internal components, the wire and harnesses, the seats, all the electronics. All that was done in-house, and then it was moved over here and there was some further work done.

[Assistant] Are the CCTs mainly made of aluminum, or are they also made of wood like the FFT?

[User] CCT is some aluminum and mostly wood. CCTII is pretty well all aluminum, the skin, everything. The primary, secondary structure is almost 100 percent aluminum.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about some of the other facilities like the Tile Repair Training Area and why that was established?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] CCT, I believe, was built in 9 South. FFT was built in 9 South. CCTII was contracted through Johnson Engineering. They had the, I guess you could say, the aluminum shell built, and then it was shipped to Building 220, where the Johnson Engineering contract assembled all the internal components, the wire and harnesses, the seats, all the electronics. All that was done in-house, and then it was moved over here and there was some further work done.

[Assistant] Are the CCTs mainly made of aluminum, or are they also made of wood like the FFT?

[User] CCT is some aluminum and mostly wood. CCTII is pretty well all aluminum, the skin, everything. The primary, secondary structure is almost 100 percent aluminum.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about some of the other facilities like the Tile Repair Training Area and why that was established?

[User] The Tile Repair had come along probably four, five years ago, after we lost [\n\n Columbia\n\n ], and basically what that class is for is once they’re in orbit, they can look for tiles missing and possibly try to go in and repair them. I don't know if they have replacement tiles, but I know they have what they call the Goo Gun, which is basically like a high-dollar caulking gun. They practice playing with the caulk or whatever kind of silicone-type material it is, so when they reenter they don’t have hotspots, usually it’s on the leading edge of the wing.

[Assistant] Now, we’ve seen a few people come in here with the undergarments for the spacesuits. When they’re in the trainers and in this Tile Repair Area, are they wearing suits?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] CCT is some aluminum and mostly wood. CCTII is pretty well all aluminum, the skin, everything. The primary, secondary structure is almost 100 percent aluminum.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about some of the other facilities like the Tile Repair Training Area and why that was established?

[User] The Tile Repair had come along probably four, five years ago, after we lost [\n\n Columbia\n\n ], and basically what that class is for is once they’re in orbit, they can look for tiles missing and possibly try to go in and repair them. I don't know if they have replacement tiles, but I know they have what they call the Goo Gun, which is basically like a high-dollar caulking gun. They practice playing with the caulk or whatever kind of silicone-type material it is, so when they reenter they don’t have hotspots, usually it’s on the leading edge of the wing.

[Assistant] Now, we’ve seen a few people come in here with the undergarments for the spacesuits. When they’re in the trainers and in this Tile Repair Area, are they wearing suits?

[User] I don’t think Tile Repair does suited subjects. We call them suited subjects, whether they’re crew or non-crew personnel. They do in the trainers, but as far as E Wing, I’ve never seen them do a suited person.

[Assistant] Can you also tell us about the ET [External Tank] Umbilical Door Trainer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Tile Repair had come along probably four, five years ago, after we lost [\n\n Columbia\n\n ], and basically what that class is for is once they’re in orbit, they can look for tiles missing and possibly try to go in and repair them. I don't know if they have replacement tiles, but I know they have what they call the Goo Gun, which is basically like a high-dollar caulking gun. They practice playing with the caulk or whatever kind of silicone-type material it is, so when they reenter they don’t have hotspots, usually it’s on the leading edge of the wing.

[Assistant] Now, we’ve seen a few people come in here with the undergarments for the spacesuits. When they’re in the trainers and in this Tile Repair Area, are they wearing suits?

[User] I don’t think Tile Repair does suited subjects. We call them suited subjects, whether they’re crew or non-crew personnel. They do in the trainers, but as far as E Wing, I’ve never seen them do a suited person.

[Assistant] Can you also tell us about the ET [External Tank] Umbilical Door Trainer?

[User] About the only thing I really know about it—it’s been around for, I don't know, a long time. I want to say a year or so ago, I believe there were some parts on the ET door that’s in orbit that broke, and they came over here and took some parts off of our trainer because they were pretty well downgraded flight hardware, so they actually took the parts, flew them, and replaced them. So we no longer have the parts. I think they made some parts that would work to replace what they took, but I don’t think they’re to the quality of what was in there.

[Assistant] Do you ever have to reconfigure your facility at all for new Space Shuttle missions, or are all the trainers are pretty much set?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think Tile Repair does suited subjects. We call them suited subjects, whether they’re crew or non-crew personnel. They do in the trainers, but as far as E Wing, I’ve never seen them do a suited person.

[Assistant] Can you also tell us about the ET [External Tank] Umbilical Door Trainer?

[User] About the only thing I really know about it—it’s been around for, I don't know, a long time. I want to say a year or so ago, I believe there were some parts on the ET door that’s in orbit that broke, and they came over here and took some parts off of our trainer because they were pretty well downgraded flight hardware, so they actually took the parts, flew them, and replaced them. So we no longer have the parts. I think they made some parts that would work to replace what they took, but I don’t think they’re to the quality of what was in there.

[Assistant] Do you ever have to reconfigure your facility at all for new Space Shuttle missions, or are all the trainers are pretty much set?

[User] No, the trainers are pretty well set in place, and we haven’t moved any trainers in probably ten years. The way everything is set now with Station and Shuttle is pretty well the way it is. The only thing that we change, we may do upgrades, whether it’s electrical or structural, for certain types of classes. We set the trainers up for whatever class it is with the hardware that we have here in the building, and it’s constantly rotating. You’ll set it up in the morning for one class, they’ll go in and tear it down to a normal configuration, and then they will bring new hardware in for the next class.

[Assistant] Can you give us an example of some of the different upgrades or changes that you might make for specific classes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About the only thing I really know about it—it’s been around for, I don't know, a long time. I want to say a year or so ago, I believe there were some parts on the ET door that’s in orbit that broke, and they came over here and took some parts off of our trainer because they were pretty well downgraded flight hardware, so they actually took the parts, flew them, and replaced them. So we no longer have the parts. I think they made some parts that would work to replace what they took, but I don’t think they’re to the quality of what was in there.

[Assistant] Do you ever have to reconfigure your facility at all for new Space Shuttle missions, or are all the trainers are pretty much set?

[User] No, the trainers are pretty well set in place, and we haven’t moved any trainers in probably ten years. The way everything is set now with Station and Shuttle is pretty well the way it is. The only thing that we change, we may do upgrades, whether it’s electrical or structural, for certain types of classes. We set the trainers up for whatever class it is with the hardware that we have here in the building, and it’s constantly rotating. You’ll set it up in the morning for one class, they’ll go in and tear it down to a normal configuration, and then they will bring new hardware in for the next class.

[Assistant] Can you give us an example of some of the different upgrades or changes that you might make for specific classes?

[User] Well, like, Met Ops [phonetic] was one of them—I believe that’s the right term. Most of the upgrades that’s done now, I would have to say, is pretty well in Station. The last year or so, we’ve slowly started backing off of any kind of structural upgrades to the Shuttle trainers.

[Assistant] Are there any specific Space Shuttle missions that you supported that really stand out clearly in your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the trainers are pretty well set in place, and we haven’t moved any trainers in probably ten years. The way everything is set now with Station and Shuttle is pretty well the way it is. The only thing that we change, we may do upgrades, whether it’s electrical or structural, for certain types of classes. We set the trainers up for whatever class it is with the hardware that we have here in the building, and it’s constantly rotating. You’ll set it up in the morning for one class, they’ll go in and tear it down to a normal configuration, and then they will bring new hardware in for the next class.

[Assistant] Can you give us an example of some of the different upgrades or changes that you might make for specific classes?

[User] Well, like, Met Ops [phonetic] was one of them—I believe that’s the right term. Most of the upgrades that’s done now, I would have to say, is pretty well in Station. The last year or so, we’ve slowly started backing off of any kind of structural upgrades to the Shuttle trainers.

[Assistant] Are there any specific Space Shuttle missions that you supported that really stand out clearly in your mind?

[User] Wow.

[Assistant] I’m sure they’re all memorable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, like, Met Ops [phonetic] was one of them—I believe that’s the right term. Most of the upgrades that’s done now, I would have to say, is pretty well in Station. The last year or so, we’ve slowly started backing off of any kind of structural upgrades to the Shuttle trainers.

[Assistant] Are there any specific Space Shuttle missions that you supported that really stand out clearly in your mind?

[User] Wow.

[Assistant] I’m sure they’re all memorable.

[User] There’s so many. They’re all fun. They’re all exciting to work on, and the different crews and the different hardware. I would have to say—I wasn’t working in this building—but one of the memorable would have been when the Ku-band antennas, the first one actually came onsite. I worked in the Rigging Department, and we escorted it, unloaded it off a plane in Ellington Field [Houston, TX] and took it to Building 17, maybe. That was a long time ago. Then from there it went to Building 44 for testing. God, there’s just so many. That one always sticks out because of the procedures we went through. Actually had a military escort and the whole nine yards.

[Assistant] You were here during STS-26. Do you have any recollections of that return to flight and training of that crew? Did that change how things were operated here in Building 9?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There’s so many. They’re all fun. They’re all exciting to work on, and the different crews and the different hardware. I would have to say—I wasn’t working in this building—but one of the memorable would have been when the Ku-band antennas, the first one actually came onsite. I worked in the Rigging Department, and we escorted it, unloaded it off a plane in Ellington Field [Houston, TX] and took it to Building 17, maybe. That was a long time ago. Then from there it went to Building 44 for testing. God, there’s just so many. That one always sticks out because of the procedures we went through. Actually had a military escort and the whole nine yards.

[Assistant] You were here during STS-26. Do you have any recollections of that return to flight and training of that crew? Did that change how things were operated here in Building 9?

[User] You mean when we first fired up and started flying again?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes. God, we probably had six or seven platforms built for media throughout the building for filming, and they were pretty well here until the whole, was it 13 or 14 days, until they actually landed. So there was a lot of hype here in the building, because we had a lot of people from all over the world here to film. It was pretty exciting, yes.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine. For that flight, they also added the crew escape capability. Did that change how you trained?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. God, we probably had six or seven platforms built for media throughout the building for filming, and they were pretty well here until the whole, was it 13 or 14 days, until they actually landed. So there was a lot of hype here in the building, because we had a lot of people from all over the world here to film. It was pretty exciting, yes.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine. For that flight, they also added the crew escape capability. Did that change how you trained?

[User] The escape pole?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes. I’ve seen them actually, what they call firing the arm, the pole. I’ve not been involved with a lot of the training on that. There’s some pros and cons on that piece of hardware. Because, with what I know about it, there’s such a small window when you can actually use that arm. You can’t be going over a certain speed, you’ve got to be at a certain altitude, that kind of stuff. So as far as a lot of training, I’ve seen a couple of classes, but I’m not real familiar with it.

[Assistant] Earlier, you had mentioned the Canadarm, that it was here and that it has been excessed. Can you tell us about Manipulator and Development Facility when it was here, and what it was used for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The other arm, you mean?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, they do. They have some lightweight helium-filled type modules. They practice. I guess these balloons are the size of, say, a lab or a node, and they practice sticking it in the cargo bay. They have a cargo bay on the east end that’s mounted on its side, doesn’t have any doors, but they just practice putting it inside. They actually have a little cupola down there, which is like six windows and a window on the top, that they sit in and they operate the arm.

[Assistant] Interesting. Do you have any recollections of a time when this facility was used when a mission was up and there was a problem, and you guys were called on to help remedy the situation?

[User] I would have to say I know there was one, and I can’t tell you the mission it was. The Shuttle hatch—they could not open for whatever reason it was, and in the middle of the night they came over here to Building 9. We opened it for them, and then engineers actually went in and went through our hatch step by step and wrote basically a step by step procedure for the astronauts until they got to exactly what was wrong with it. They figured it out, and they communicated to them the steps they needed to take to actually be able to open the hatch.\n\n Then there was one a few years ago, they came to the building to look at, I want to say, one of the blankets that is on the Station. They went through the blankets, the materials, and I don’t actually know why they were doing it or what it was for. But they figured out what they needed to, and then they were gone. So they do come in and out during missions or flights, and of course if it’s a Station issue it could be any time.

[Assistant] Is that fairly common for the Space Shuttle Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would have to say I know there was one, and I can’t tell you the mission it was. The Shuttle hatch—they could not open for whatever reason it was, and in the middle of the night they came over here to Building 9. We opened it for them, and then engineers actually went in and went through our hatch step by step and wrote basically a step by step procedure for the astronauts until they got to exactly what was wrong with it. They figured it out, and they communicated to them the steps they needed to take to actually be able to open the hatch.\n\n Then there was one a few years ago, they came to the building to look at, I want to say, one of the blankets that is on the Station. They went through the blankets, the materials, and I don’t actually know why they were doing it or what it was for. But they figured out what they needed to, and then they were gone. So they do come in and out during missions or flights, and of course if it’s a Station issue it could be any time.

[Assistant] Is that fairly common for the Space Shuttle Program?

[User] I wouldn’t say a whole lot. It seems like if you tried to average it out, that I know about, maybe every other year you get something that’s really highly profiled and they need to come in the building and figure out a problem. So as far as training, there is other reasons they use the trainers. It depends on what it is. The fidelity of the hardware they’re wanting to use. We may not have that fidelity, depending on what it is.

[Assistant] Earlier, you had mentioned the Department of Defense [DoD]. I was curious what problems or difficulties you might have had with classified flights and how you dealt with that. How did you deal with working with the military?

[User] Are you talking about with the Ku-band antenna?

[Assistant] No, working with the military. Early on the in the Space Shuttle program, we had a number of DoD flights. Did that create any problems for you, being that we were a civilian agency and very open?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wouldn’t say a whole lot. It seems like if you tried to average it out, that I know about, maybe every other year you get something that’s really highly profiled and they need to come in the building and figure out a problem. So as far as training, there is other reasons they use the trainers. It depends on what it is. The fidelity of the hardware they’re wanting to use. We may not have that fidelity, depending on what it is.

[Assistant] Earlier, you had mentioned the Department of Defense [DoD]. I was curious what problems or difficulties you might have had with classified flights and how you dealt with that. How did you deal with working with the military?

[User] Are you talking about with the Ku-band antenna?

[Assistant] No, working with the military. Early on the in the Space Shuttle program, we had a number of DoD flights. Did that create any problems for you, being that we were a civilian agency and very open?

[User] Not for me, because I went through the actual paperwork to be badged for the buildings. Back then I was in the Rigging Department and I had to go into Building 5, Building 30, Building 9, and do different jobs. It affected me? No, not really.

[Assistant] What about the operations in this facility? Was that a complication in terms of doing classes or running simulations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not for me, because I went through the actual paperwork to be badged for the buildings. Back then I was in the Rigging Department and I had to go into Building 5, Building 30, Building 9, and do different jobs. It affected me? No, not really.

[Assistant] What about the operations in this facility? Was that a complication in terms of doing classes or running simulations?

[User] For DoD?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I wasn’t in this building at that time. Probably Steve [Stephen J.] Elliot could tell you. I don’t remember DoD affecting the training in the building, but I wouldn’t swear to it.

[Assistant] Sure, I understand that. Who have been some of the main contractors who have supported the building since you’ve been working here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For DoD?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I wasn’t in this building at that time. Probably Steve [Stephen J.] Elliot could tell you. I don’t remember DoD affecting the training in the building, but I wouldn’t swear to it.

[Assistant] Sure, I understand that. Who have been some of the main contractors who have supported the building since you’ve been working here?

[User] I want to say before my time it was Bendix, then it was Johnson Engineering, SPACEHAB, and now Raytheon which is an umbrella contract. Basically you have Raytheon as the prime, and there’s five or six subcontracts to them.

[Assistant] How many people currently work in the facility as compared to when you first started?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn’t in this building at that time. Probably Steve [Stephen J.] Elliot could tell you. I don’t remember DoD affecting the training in the building, but I wouldn’t swear to it.

[Assistant] Sure, I understand that. Who have been some of the main contractors who have supported the building since you’ve been working here?

[User] I want to say before my time it was Bendix, then it was Johnson Engineering, SPACEHAB, and now Raytheon which is an umbrella contract. Basically you have Raytheon as the prime, and there’s five or six subcontracts to them.

[Assistant] How many people currently work in the facility as compared to when you first started?

[User] In this building? I want to say for Shuttle, to support Shuttle and Station training, I want to say there’s like between 70 and 75 people that’s housed in the building. There may be more people that support the contract. You know, you have offsite people, your admin people, people in your shipping and receiving department. So actually housed in the building, there’s around 70.

[Assistant] When there’s a simulation going on, how many people are working those simulations or classes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I want to say before my time it was Bendix, then it was Johnson Engineering, SPACEHAB, and now Raytheon which is an umbrella contract. Basically you have Raytheon as the prime, and there’s five or six subcontracts to them.

[Assistant] How many people currently work in the facility as compared to when you first started?

[User] In this building? I want to say for Shuttle, to support Shuttle and Station training, I want to say there’s like between 70 and 75 people that’s housed in the building. There may be more people that support the contract. You know, you have offsite people, your admin people, people in your shipping and receiving department. So actually housed in the building, there’s around 70.

[Assistant] When there’s a simulation going on, how many people are working those simulations or classes?

[User] It could be anywhere from two to four technicians to set the class up, and then you have, it could be one, two, or six crew members, the instructors and the staff that actually works with the instructors. You may have suit techs [technicians]. If you’re going to have suits involved, you have suit techs. There could be four to six suit techs. Depending on how many astronauts you have, pretty well you have a person, I believe, one per suit assigned, and they actually help whatever astronaut they’re assigned to, or suited subject.

[Assistant] Do you know when JSC began transitioning from the Apollo crew training to Space Shuttle crew training? Has anyone talked to you about that? I know you started in ’82.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In this building? I want to say for Shuttle, to support Shuttle and Station training, I want to say there’s like between 70 and 75 people that’s housed in the building. There may be more people that support the contract. You know, you have offsite people, your admin people, people in your shipping and receiving department. So actually housed in the building, there’s around 70.

[Assistant] When there’s a simulation going on, how many people are working those simulations or classes?

[User] It could be anywhere from two to four technicians to set the class up, and then you have, it could be one, two, or six crew members, the instructors and the staff that actually works with the instructors. You may have suit techs [technicians]. If you’re going to have suits involved, you have suit techs. There could be four to six suit techs. Depending on how many astronauts you have, pretty well you have a person, I believe, one per suit assigned, and they actually help whatever astronaut they’re assigned to, or suited subject.

[Assistant] Do you know when JSC began transitioning from the Apollo crew training to Space Shuttle crew training? Has anyone talked to you about that? I know you started in ’82.

[User] No. I want to say it was in the early ‘70s or mid ‘70s, but no, I was in high school then. (laughter)

[Assistant] I figured. I just thought I would ask. I think I’ve hit most of my questions. Other than the people that you mentioned earlier, Ronny [Ronald L.] Newman and Clayton Hamm and Steve Elliot, are there any other people, you think, that we might talk to about the history of the building or the trainers themselves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, 9B was added, or the west end, was added for the Station. It started out very low fidelity trainers. Not even trainers. They were really mockups. Some people still call the trainers mockups. I prefer to call them trainers, but some people you will hear call them mockups. Station started out, they actually installed a system that kind of represented the structure of Station, and it had an elevated platform on it with an arm. That was around for a few years, and then it went away. They brought in a lunar habitat back in the ‘80s. It was like three or four levels. It was around for a few years, mostly evaluations. The Hubble [Space] Telescope was actually fully assembled in the building. It was approximately 50 feet high, full-scale. Now we have part of that in the building, and that’s where most of the training is. It’s on the Hubble doors. The astronauts train on the Hubble doors. As far as the building, there’s been quite a few mods over the years. The Space Center Houston Catwalk, for one, was added for tourists.

[Assistant] When was that added?

[User] God, I want to say it was in the early ‘90s. No, maybe it was the mid ‘90s, because early ‘90s, the 9C, the east section, was built, and it was shortly after that.

[Assistant] What was 9C built for?

[User] I really don’t know why it was built. I think they were heading in one direction, and engineering, ER ended up in there for research and development of robotic arms or robots, period. Other than that, that I can really remember, it was mostly structural stuff that’s, you know, cranes being worked on or upgraded or that type of stuff.

[Assistant] One other question I had for you. Do you have any documents or memos or letters or just general information about the facility that we could get copies of or scan for the historical record, so people can learn more about the facility itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really don’t know why it was built. I think they were heading in one direction, and engineering, ER ended up in there for research and development of robotic arms or robots, period. Other than that, that I can really remember, it was mostly structural stuff that’s, you know, cranes being worked on or upgraded or that type of stuff.

[Assistant] One other question I had for you. Do you have any documents or memos or letters or just general information about the facility that we could get copies of or scan for the historical record, so people can learn more about the facility itself?

[User] You’re talking about as far as old documents that I have?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Steve Elliot would be the one to talk to, because I don't know of any. Because, like I said, I’ve only been on this contract for about 15 years. As far as going back further than that, I can’t think of any right off. There may be some here. I think there’s some old drawings of the FFT, old drawings of the CCT—

[Assistant] Those would be great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re talking about as far as old documents that I have?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Steve Elliot would be the one to talk to, because I don't know of any. Because, like I said, I’ve only been on this contract for about 15 years. As far as going back further than that, I can’t think of any right off. There may be some here. I think there’s some old drawings of the FFT, old drawings of the CCT—

[Assistant] Those would be great.

[User] —and the CCT2.

[Assistant] Those would be fantastic, if we could get copies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Steve Elliot would be the one to talk to, because I don't know of any. Because, like I said, I’ve only been on this contract for about 15 years. As far as going back further than that, I can’t think of any right off. There may be some here. I think there’s some old drawings of the FFT, old drawings of the CCT—

[Assistant] Those would be great.

[User] —and the CCT2.

[Assistant] Those would be fantastic, if we could get copies.

[User] You’d have to just talk to him. Now as far as facility drawings, you could probably go to COD [Center Operations Directorate]. I don’t know how far back they keep drawings. They should have drawings of the original building, and then each phase of the add-ons.

[Assistant] Do you know who the contractors were that did these add-ons and modifications to the building?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —and the CCT2.

[Assistant] Those would be fantastic, if we could get copies.

[User] You’d have to just talk to him. Now as far as facility drawings, you could probably go to COD [Center Operations Directorate]. I don’t know how far back they keep drawings. They should have drawings of the original building, and then each phase of the add-ons.

[Assistant] Do you know who the contractors were that did these add-ons and modifications to the building?

[User] No. But if you went to COD, they could probably tell you.

[Assistant] Yes, I’m sure they probably have that in the records. This was relatively painless, I hope.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’d have to just talk to him. Now as far as facility drawings, you could probably go to COD [Center Operations Directorate]. I don’t know how far back they keep drawings. They should have drawings of the original building, and then each phase of the add-ons.

[Assistant] Do you know who the contractors were that did these add-ons and modifications to the building?

[User] No. But if you went to COD, they could probably tell you.

[Assistant] Yes, I’m sure they probably have that in the records. This was relatively painless, I hope.

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] So I appreciate your time today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was in college a year before I joined. Actually I had thought about going into the Peace Corps as a senior in high school.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] And the project, kind of doing some, uh, overseas activity.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Not necessarily when I graduated from high school, but I was thinking about it then.

[Assistant] Where did you go to high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the project, kind of doing some, uh, overseas activity.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Not necessarily when I graduated from high school, but I was thinking about it then.

[Assistant] Where did you go to high school?

[User] I went to Lincoln High School in Stockton.

[Assistant] And during your high school years, did you do any volunteer work, any travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to Lincoln High School in Stockton.

[Assistant] And during your high school years, did you do any volunteer work, any travel?

[User] I did some volunteer work and then I also traveled. I was a Girl Scout, and I had a chance to travel to the senior roundup in Colorado Springs when I was a freshman. And then when I graduated, I went on a trip to Canada and the Northwest with two patrols.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And so I had some experience that way.

[Assistant] And do you remember how you, in what context you first heard about the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I had some experience that way.

[Assistant] And do you remember how you, in what context you first heard about the Peace Corps?

[User] Well, I was a freshman in 1959, so I was listening to some of that coming about. But I also had read about Tom Dooley.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah.

[User] And I had read The Ugly American during that, in high school also, and looked at some of the possibilities of what an American might be able to do overseas. So I was just really probably open to those kinds of activities.

[Assistant] And where did you go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was a freshman in 1959, so I was listening to some of that coming about. But I also had read about Tom Dooley.

[Assistant] Ah, yeah.

[User] And I had read The Ugly American during that, in high school also, and looked at some of the possibilities of what an American might be able to do overseas. So I was just really probably open to those kinds of activities.

[Assistant] And where did you go to college?

[User] I went to the University of California Davis.

[Assistant] And what was your degree program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to the University of California Davis.

[Assistant] And what was your degree program?

[User] Majored in landscape horticulture.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And that was a choice because I, as a senior, had an opportunity to apply to for a couple of scholarships, and one of them was in horticulture. So I had to look it up and find out what it was about. I said, hey, I like that kind of stuff. And so.

[Assistant] Did you get the scholarship?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Majored in landscape horticulture.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And that was a choice because I, as a senior, had an opportunity to apply to for a couple of scholarships, and one of them was in horticulture. So I had to look it up and find out what it was about. I said, hey, I like that kind of stuff. And so.

[Assistant] Did you get the scholarship?

[User] Yes, I did. But I didn't take that. I didn't go to that school because it was to Temple University.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And during your college years, did you do any volunteer work, travel? You continue with the Scouts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was a choice because I, as a senior, had an opportunity to apply to for a couple of scholarships, and one of them was in horticulture. So I had to look it up and find out what it was about. I said, hey, I like that kind of stuff. And so.

[Assistant] Did you get the scholarship?

[User] Yes, I did. But I didn't take that. I didn't go to that school because it was to Temple University.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. And during your college years, did you do any volunteer work, travel? You continue with the Scouts?

[User] I did continue a little bit with the Scouts, but I did get involved in, um, I became a camp counselor for the YMCA. And so through the summer program, summer I was a full-fledged counselor at one of their summer camps. Even though you get paid, that's volunteer. No, that was a good experience. And I was involved in a couple of campus opportunities that related to horticulture, crop production, landscaping, and all of that. That gave me a chance to travel to San Francisco and meet older, some of the older folks that were involved in native plant society and those kinds of things.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Did you study foreign language during your college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did continue a little bit with the Scouts, but I did get involved in, um, I became a camp counselor for the YMCA. And so through the summer program, summer I was a full-fledged counselor at one of their summer camps. Even though you get paid, that's volunteer. No, that was a good experience. And I was involved in a couple of campus opportunities that related to horticulture, crop production, landscaping, and all of that. That gave me a chance to travel to San Francisco and meet older, some of the older folks that were involved in native plant society and those kinds of things.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Did you study foreign language during your college?

[User] Not in college. I had three years of high school Spanish.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] And we didn't need to have it in college.

[Assistant] So you weren't bilingual at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not in college. I had three years of high school Spanish.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] And we didn't need to have it in college.

[Assistant] So you weren't bilingual at all?

[User] Not at that time.

[Assistant] OK. OK. So as you're going into your senior year, do you then seriously think about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not at that time.

[Assistant] OK. OK. So as you're going into your senior year, do you then seriously think about Peace Corps?

[User] In college, I had, in fact I, before that, I was talking to recruiters and we were looking at different possibilities.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And then I did apply in my, um, in the senior year and I had to go to, um. In the application process I had, I mentioned that I'd had a heart murmur as a child, and so I had to go to Travis Air Force Base for a medical exam to see if they recognized it was still there and they needed. So that held me up about six months from being accepted.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. But you were still in school at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In college, I had, in fact I, before that, I was talking to recruiters and we were looking at different possibilities.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And then I did apply in my, um, in the senior year and I had to go to, um. In the application process I had, I mentioned that I'd had a heart murmur as a child, and so I had to go to Travis Air Force Base for a medical exam to see if they recognized it was still there and they needed. So that held me up about six months from being accepted.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. But you were still in school at that time?

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Yeah. When you fill out the application, I think one of the things is you indicate a preference for a country or an area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I did apply in my, um, in the senior year and I had to go to, um. In the application process I had, I mentioned that I'd had a heart murmur as a child, and so I had to go to Travis Air Force Base for a medical exam to see if they recognized it was still there and they needed. So that held me up about six months from being accepted.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. But you were still in school at that time?

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Yeah. When you fill out the application, I think one of the things is you indicate a preference for a country or an area.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] And even a project. Do you recall what you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was.

[Assistant] Yeah. When you fill out the application, I think one of the things is you indicate a preference for a country or an area.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] And even a project. Do you recall what you?

[User] Um. Uh, I'm very open about the fact that I had horticulture background and in fruit production, vegetable production, those kinds of things would be of interest to me. Actually, I was kind of interested in going maybe to Afghanistan, Nepal, or maybe South America. So, um, I got the invitation to go to Guatemala.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you know anyone who had been in the Peace Corps up to this point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] And even a project. Do you recall what you?

[User] Um. Uh, I'm very open about the fact that I had horticulture background and in fruit production, vegetable production, those kinds of things would be of interest to me. Actually, I was kind of interested in going maybe to Afghanistan, Nepal, or maybe South America. So, um, I got the invitation to go to Guatemala.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you know anyone who had been in the Peace Corps up to this point?

[User] I don't recall whether I did or not.

[Assistant] OK. And how did your family and friends react to this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My mother was very, very supportive. A bit, this is a good adventure. College was a good adventure. This is a good opportunity to know things. And I have some very close friends that actually applied at the same time, and they were accepted in different programs.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I, when I got the invitation, I went to pick up my dad at work and let him know where and what it was. And fortunately, I had looked at the maps so I could tell him exactly where Guatemala was.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he was real quiet about it and he says, hmm, well, we haven't visited down there yet. So they were very, they were cautious, accepting, but accepting very much.

[Assistant] And when you got the invitation, no hesitation. You were ready to go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, when I got the invitation, I went to pick up my dad at work and let him know where and what it was. And fortunately, I had looked at the maps so I could tell him exactly where Guatemala was.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he was real quiet about it and he says, hmm, well, we haven't visited down there yet. So they were very, they were cautious, accepting, but accepting very much.

[Assistant] And when you got the invitation, no hesitation. You were ready to go?

[User] Yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] What was the, uh, and where were you invited to, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he was real quiet about it and he says, hmm, well, we haven't visited down there yet. So they were very, they were cautious, accepting, but accepting very much.

[Assistant] And when you got the invitation, no hesitation. You were ready to go?

[User] Yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] What was the, uh, and where were you invited to, I mean?

[User] It was, I was invited to the rural community development program in Guatemala.

[Assistant] To train where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] What was the, uh, and where were you invited to, I mean?

[User] It was, I was invited to the rural community development program in Guatemala.

[Assistant] To train where?

[User] At Las Cruces, New Mexico.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. OK. So it was, it wasn't in-country training, it was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, I was invited to the rural community development program in Guatemala.

[Assistant] To train where?

[User] At Las Cruces, New Mexico.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. OK. So it was, it wasn't in-country training, it was.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Yeah. So I guess you flew down to Las Cruces or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At Las Cruces, New Mexico.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. OK. So it was, it wasn't in-country training, it was.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Yeah. So I guess you flew down to Las Cruces or?

[User] We flew to El Paso and took a bus from El Paso to Las Cruces.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. OK. Do you recall initially reporting into the training site and looking at the other people who were there? And, you know, now you're in the midst of other volunteers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was probably pretty open, but pretty fresh as an individual.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And in our group there were, it was mixed singles and couples.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And you could pick up on how some couples were, these guys don't know what they're doing. We're more sophisticated. We're from New York.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And this was also the height, I think, of the time when for some young men coming into the Peace Corps was alternative to the possibility of going to Vietnam.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And in our group there were, it was mixed singles and couples.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And you could pick up on how some couples were, these guys don't know what they're doing. We're more sophisticated. We're from New York.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And this was also the height, I think, of the time when for some young men coming into the Peace Corps was alternative to the possibility of going to Vietnam.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And I don't know how obvious that was. I mean, whether it was expressed, articulated by people.