[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The language is a difficulty, but then again you have the interpreters. They have a different way of looking at life than what we do. Whereas we're more linear and time controlled, they're more people oriented. They may be an hour late for a meeting and think nothing of it, because they were doing something with the families, whereas if the Americans are an hour late, they want to know why you're an hour late.

[Assistant] I guess that just made your job more of a challenge to get those meetings rescheduled.

[User] At times.

[Assistant] Was there ever a calm time during Shuttle-Mir in your office? Was it busier during the missions than when you weren't having a mission?

[User] Well, we never did not have a mission after Norm [Thagard] went up, because we had continuous American presence on board the Mir; therefore, we were always active. We did have some busier times than others, especially when some function is going on on the Mir, but it stayed pretty busy for the last four years.

[Assistant] Just like one continuous day.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At times.

[Assistant] Was there ever a calm time during Shuttle-Mir in your office? Was it busier during the missions than when you weren't having a mission?

[User] Well, we never did not have a mission after Norm [Thagard] went up, because we had continuous American presence on board the Mir; therefore, we were always active. We did have some busier times than others, especially when some function is going on on the Mir, but it stayed pretty busy for the last four years.

[Assistant] Just like one continuous day.

[User] One very long day.

[Assistant] You had so much experience when you took on these additional responsibilities, but knowing how much must happen in this office, I'm sure there was lots of things that you were able to learn. Did you find yourself being able to move into different directions, or learning different areas that helped make the job easier or more efficient?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we never did not have a mission after Norm [Thagard] went up, because we had continuous American presence on board the Mir; therefore, we were always active. We did have some busier times than others, especially when some function is going on on the Mir, but it stayed pretty busy for the last four years.

[Assistant] Just like one continuous day.

[User] One very long day.

[Assistant] You had so much experience when you took on these additional responsibilities, but knowing how much must happen in this office, I'm sure there was lots of things that you were able to learn. Did you find yourself being able to move into different directions, or learning different areas that helped make the job easier or more efficient?

[User] This is true, yes. I took a lot of different courses in the Russian culture. That helped a lot, made it more easier to get along with some of them, look at things from their point of perspective instead of just ours, which is a little bit different. I'm trying to think of some good ways of putting it. It's just a continual learning experience. The more you get to know them, the more you are involved in things. You just learn by a process of trial and error.

[Assistant] The Russians, I guess, too, after a while, learn that they could come to you and get information. Did you feel like your family of astronaut extended family just grew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One very long day.

[Assistant] You had so much experience when you took on these additional responsibilities, but knowing how much must happen in this office, I'm sure there was lots of things that you were able to learn. Did you find yourself being able to move into different directions, or learning different areas that helped make the job easier or more efficient?

[User] This is true, yes. I took a lot of different courses in the Russian culture. That helped a lot, made it more easier to get along with some of them, look at things from their point of perspective instead of just ours, which is a little bit different. I'm trying to think of some good ways of putting it. It's just a continual learning experience. The more you get to know them, the more you are involved in things. You just learn by a process of trial and error.

[Assistant] The Russians, I guess, too, after a while, learn that they could come to you and get information. Did you feel like your family of astronaut extended family just grew?

[User] To a certain extent. There's quite a few of them that would do that. A lot of the managers that were over here quite frequently, they'd get to know you, and they'd realize that it was easy to talk, and they'd come over and communicate. After a while you'd kind of get to be like a big family.

[Assistant] Your time that you spent was not just in the office. Did your days continue when you left, and were you getting the phone calls at different hours of--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is true, yes. I took a lot of different courses in the Russian culture. That helped a lot, made it more easier to get along with some of them, look at things from their point of perspective instead of just ours, which is a little bit different. I'm trying to think of some good ways of putting it. It's just a continual learning experience. The more you get to know them, the more you are involved in things. You just learn by a process of trial and error.

[Assistant] The Russians, I guess, too, after a while, learn that they could come to you and get information. Did you feel like your family of astronaut extended family just grew?

[User] To a certain extent. There's quite a few of them that would do that. A lot of the managers that were over here quite frequently, they'd get to know you, and they'd realize that it was easy to talk, and they'd come over and communicate. After a while you'd kind of get to be like a big family.

[Assistant] Your time that you spent was not just in the office. Did your days continue when you left, and were you getting the phone calls at different hours of--

[User] There were times we got them late at night or early in the morning. Sometimes faxes needed to be sent so that they would have them at the proper work time in Moscow, so there were a few times you were up here at midnight or one in the morning sending or receiving faxes.

[Assistant] And that was from and to Americans as well as the Russians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To a certain extent. There's quite a few of them that would do that. A lot of the managers that were over here quite frequently, they'd get to know you, and they'd realize that it was easy to talk, and they'd come over and communicate. After a while you'd kind of get to be like a big family.

[Assistant] Your time that you spent was not just in the office. Did your days continue when you left, and were you getting the phone calls at different hours of--

[User] There were times we got them late at night or early in the morning. Sometimes faxes needed to be sent so that they would have them at the proper work time in Moscow, so there were a few times you were up here at midnight or one in the morning sending or receiving faxes.

[Assistant] And that was from and to Americans as well as the Russians?

[User] That's correct, in Moscow and here.

[Assistant] When Frank's here, I'm sure that you're busy on a continuous communication effort with him, since he's right around the corner, but how was it with communication when he was over in Russia doing business over there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were times we got them late at night or early in the morning. Sometimes faxes needed to be sent so that they would have them at the proper work time in Moscow, so there were a few times you were up here at midnight or one in the morning sending or receiving faxes.

[Assistant] And that was from and to Americans as well as the Russians?

[User] That's correct, in Moscow and here.

[Assistant] When Frank's here, I'm sure that you're busy on a continuous communication effort with him, since he's right around the corner, but how was it with communication when he was over in Russia doing business over there?

[User] As continuous as it is over here pretty much. [Laughter] There's always telephones, cell phones, pagers. In every office you go to, they had phones. He has Moscow cell phones, so you could keep continuous communications no matter where in the world he's at.

[Assistant] I guess you have plenty of helpers if you needed to find him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct, in Moscow and here.

[Assistant] When Frank's here, I'm sure that you're busy on a continuous communication effort with him, since he's right around the corner, but how was it with communication when he was over in Russia doing business over there?

[User] As continuous as it is over here pretty much. [Laughter] There's always telephones, cell phones, pagers. In every office you go to, they had phones. He has Moscow cell phones, so you could keep continuous communications no matter where in the world he's at.

[Assistant] I guess you have plenty of helpers if you needed to find him.

[User] We had people in the MOST, people in the TsUP, people at Star City, so he was never out of touch.

[Assistant] I guess that was helpful for you. At least you knew if there was something that came up here, that--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As continuous as it is over here pretty much. [Laughter] There's always telephones, cell phones, pagers. In every office you go to, they had phones. He has Moscow cell phones, so you could keep continuous communications no matter where in the world he's at.

[Assistant] I guess you have plenty of helpers if you needed to find him.

[User] We had people in the MOST, people in the TsUP, people at Star City, so he was never out of touch.

[Assistant] I guess that was helpful for you. At least you knew if there was something that came up here, that--

[User] If there was something that came up here, we had instant ability to get hold of him, then if something over there he needed here, he could contact us either through our office, through our pagers, or at our homes. Everybody here kind of worked together as a family. It wasn't an eight-to-four job. If he needed something, nine, ten o'clock at night, he can call anybody, and they came in and got it done.

[Assistant] That team effort, do you feel like that was one of the ingredients that made the program so successful?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had people in the MOST, people in the TsUP, people at Star City, so he was never out of touch.

[Assistant] I guess that was helpful for you. At least you knew if there was something that came up here, that--

[User] If there was something that came up here, we had instant ability to get hold of him, then if something over there he needed here, he could contact us either through our office, through our pagers, or at our homes. Everybody here kind of worked together as a family. It wasn't an eight-to-four job. If he needed something, nine, ten o'clock at night, he can call anybody, and they came in and got it done.

[Assistant] That team effort, do you feel like that was one of the ingredients that made the program so successful?

[User] I think it's a big factor that made the program work so well, is everybody was willing to set aside personal things and work together to see that this got accomplished.

[Assistant] Can you remember any incident during the program itself that you saw the team pull together that kind of sticks out in your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If there was something that came up here, we had instant ability to get hold of him, then if something over there he needed here, he could contact us either through our office, through our pagers, or at our homes. Everybody here kind of worked together as a family. It wasn't an eight-to-four job. If he needed something, nine, ten o'clock at night, he can call anybody, and they came in and got it done.

[Assistant] That team effort, do you feel like that was one of the ingredients that made the program so successful?

[User] I think it's a big factor that made the program work so well, is everybody was willing to set aside personal things and work together to see that this got accomplished.

[Assistant] Can you remember any incident during the program itself that you saw the team pull together that kind of sticks out in your mind?

[User] Well, there was the fire, there was the collision, and then there was a IG investigation where everybody worked together to see that Mr. Culbertson was adequately prepared to go before that.

[Assistant] Was there ever a time that you felt that you would pick out as like the proudest moment of the program, or even something that you were able to do that you felt that you were glad you were here to make sure that this happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it's a big factor that made the program work so well, is everybody was willing to set aside personal things and work together to see that this got accomplished.

[Assistant] Can you remember any incident during the program itself that you saw the team pull together that kind of sticks out in your mind?

[User] Well, there was the fire, there was the collision, and then there was a IG investigation where everybody worked together to see that Mr. Culbertson was adequately prepared to go before that.

[Assistant] Was there ever a time that you felt that you would pick out as like the proudest moment of the program, or even something that you were able to do that you felt that you were glad you were here to make sure that this happened?

[User] Well, I think STS-71, when we actually did the docking over at Mission Control, that was really fantastic, and then watching Shannon [Lucid] rotate with her knees in those little pink socks looking out the window when we were getting ready to retrieve her, was just fantastic.

[Assistant] That's maybe a story that you could share with us. What was it like being in Mission Control during STS-71? Were there lots of people there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there was the fire, there was the collision, and then there was a IG investigation where everybody worked together to see that Mr. Culbertson was adequately prepared to go before that.

[Assistant] Was there ever a time that you felt that you would pick out as like the proudest moment of the program, or even something that you were able to do that you felt that you were glad you were here to make sure that this happened?

[User] Well, I think STS-71, when we actually did the docking over at Mission Control, that was really fantastic, and then watching Shannon [Lucid] rotate with her knees in those little pink socks looking out the window when we were getting ready to retrieve her, was just fantastic.

[Assistant] That's maybe a story that you could share with us. What was it like being in Mission Control during STS-71? Were there lots of people there?

[User] The control room, yes. Mission Control had just an enormous amount of people. Everybody was there wanting to see us dock. It was a perfect docking, the Russians were there, everybody was just watching what was going on. It was a spectacular moment.

[Assistant] Could you feel the--


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think STS-71, when we actually did the docking over at Mission Control, that was really fantastic, and then watching Shannon [Lucid] rotate with her knees in those little pink socks looking out the window when we were getting ready to retrieve her, was just fantastic.

[Assistant] That's maybe a story that you could share with us. What was it like being in Mission Control during STS-71? Were there lots of people there?

[User] The control room, yes. Mission Control had just an enormous amount of people. Everybody was there wanting to see us dock. It was a perfect docking, the Russians were there, everybody was just watching what was going on. It was a spectacular moment.

[Assistant] Could you feel the--

[User] Tension in the air? Yes. And celebration. When the hatch doors opened and they got together, everybody was just jumping and yelling. It was nice. It was really worth being there for.

[Assistant] Then Shannon, with her pink socks.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The control room, yes. Mission Control had just an enormous amount of people. Everybody was there wanting to see us dock. It was a perfect docking, the Russians were there, everybody was just watching what was going on. It was a spectacular moment.

[Assistant] Could you feel the--

[User] Tension in the air? Yes. And celebration. When the hatch doors opened and they got together, everybody was just jumping and yelling. It was nice. It was really worth being there for.

[Assistant] Then Shannon, with her pink socks.

[User] [Laughter] Yes. She was rotating in front of the windows. You've probably seen that picture a million times where she's looking out the glass, but that was really great seeing her up there where she was coming home.

[Assistant] Were all the missions the same to you, or did they all seem different?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tension in the air? Yes. And celebration. When the hatch doors opened and they got together, everybody was just jumping and yelling. It was nice. It was really worth being there for.

[Assistant] Then Shannon, with her pink socks.

[User] [Laughter] Yes. She was rotating in front of the windows. You've probably seen that picture a million times where she's looking out the glass, but that was really great seeing her up there where she was coming home.

[Assistant] Were all the missions the same to you, or did they all seem different?

[User] They were all different. They all have their high marks and everything else, and exciting. You get very familiar with the crews. They're very important to you.

[Assistant] Were you able to communicate with them at all while they were on board, the actual Mir residents from America?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Laughter] Yes. She was rotating in front of the windows. You've probably seen that picture a million times where she's looking out the glass, but that was really great seeing her up there where she was coming home.

[Assistant] Were all the missions the same to you, or did they all seem different?

[User] They were all different. They all have their high marks and everything else, and exciting. You get very familiar with the crews. They're very important to you.

[Assistant] Were you able to communicate with them at all while they were on board, the actual Mir residents from America?

[User] Through a method that we call COS, where you put things on digital CDs, and they're sent up for special treats like at Christmas, Valentine's, or something. We did send up personalized messages to them. You could e-mail to them and get responses back and forth. Actual voice contact with them, management had that, some of the family members had it, but you needed to save that time for their families, not for the outside people.

[Assistant] At least you were able to visit with them on occasion.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were all different. They all have their high marks and everything else, and exciting. You get very familiar with the crews. They're very important to you.

[Assistant] Were you able to communicate with them at all while they were on board, the actual Mir residents from America?

[User] Through a method that we call COS, where you put things on digital CDs, and they're sent up for special treats like at Christmas, Valentine's, or something. We did send up personalized messages to them. You could e-mail to them and get responses back and forth. Actual voice contact with them, management had that, some of the family members had it, but you needed to save that time for their families, not for the outside people.

[Assistant] At least you were able to visit with them on occasion.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] When they come through here, I'm sure they get a chance to give you at least a few more pieces of information that you were looking for.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Through a method that we call COS, where you put things on digital CDs, and they're sent up for special treats like at Christmas, Valentine's, or something. We did send up personalized messages to them. You could e-mail to them and get responses back and forth. Actual voice contact with them, management had that, some of the family members had it, but you needed to save that time for their families, not for the outside people.

[Assistant] At least you were able to visit with them on occasion.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] When they come through here, I'm sure they get a chance to give you at least a few more pieces of information that you were looking for.

[User] Yes, they do. We stop and visit, and we see quite a bit of each other.

[Assistant] How did you facilitate some of the areas that go on? We know that there were nine different working groups that were part of the Shuttle-Mir Program, and that meant more than nine chairs, since there were Russian counterparts. So how were you able to get all those people where they needed to be? Can you give us some of your secrets of how this all came about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct.

[Assistant] When they come through here, I'm sure they get a chance to give you at least a few more pieces of information that you were looking for.

[User] Yes, they do. We stop and visit, and we see quite a bit of each other.

[Assistant] How did you facilitate some of the areas that go on? We know that there were nine different working groups that were part of the Shuttle-Mir Program, and that meant more than nine chairs, since there were Russian counterparts. So how were you able to get all those people where they needed to be? Can you give us some of your secrets of how this all came about?

[User] A lot of that was handled by the program support specialists at the time, which was Susan Anderson and Lindy Fortenberry, eventually. I'm not quite sure. Once meeting times were set down in Florida, we just made all the hotel arrangements and room arrangements and conference room arrangements, and all the interpreter requirements down there. Since we picked them up from the airport and carried them around through TTI all the time, everybody was pretty much where they needed to be. There were occasionally instances where meetings got postponed or had to be rescheduled due to something else coming up, but for the main part, it just flowed as a normal workday office.

[Assistant] It's almost a little scary, isn't it? You put all that together and it's normal. [Gilmore laughs] What were some of the Russian perceptions of being in America? Did they share anything with you of what it was like to work here? Are there differences that they felt being here, even in Houston compared to even Kennedy, what they saw, or anything that you can think of, because I know that they talked to you more on a personal-type basis, where it was less formal, I guess, is what I'm looking for. Some of their perceptions that they might have had.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most of them thought of it, I think, as a really big shopping opportunity. [Laughter] The first groups that came over, we would take them out to the stores, they were just amazed at the variety in the stores that we had, without the lines and the wait, did quite a lot of shopping. They liked having their own personal time where they could travel and see and do things here. I think they really enjoyed it over here. Couldn't wait to go home and show off what all they had done.

[Assistant] Were they here often in your office? Or did that become a routine after a while as well?

[User] Not really. The counterparts of the various teams came down here when we had just huge team meetings, so it wasn't that often, usually once or twice a year. Mr. Ryumin, of course, was down here training for the crew, so he was here quite a lot, and he got to be a routine in the office, and his wife Elena Kondakova, who's also a woman cosmonaut, so we got to be very friendly with them and their daughter, who went to school here.

[Assistant] We had a Russian liaison office here as well.

[User] We have a Russian liaison office here where we have representatives from Russia, Energia, also from RSA, which is the Russian Space Agency that stays on site here, and we have a director of America, which is a counterpart to our director of Russian operations, and normally those are cosmonauts and then astronauts over in Russia.

[Assistant] Did you work closely with that group, too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. The counterparts of the various teams came down here when we had just huge team meetings, so it wasn't that often, usually once or twice a year. Mr. Ryumin, of course, was down here training for the crew, so he was here quite a lot, and he got to be a routine in the office, and his wife Elena Kondakova, who's also a woman cosmonaut, so we got to be very friendly with them and their daughter, who went to school here.

[Assistant] We had a Russian liaison office here as well.

[User] We have a Russian liaison office here where we have representatives from Russia, Energia, also from RSA, which is the Russian Space Agency that stays on site here, and we have a director of America, which is a counterpart to our director of Russian operations, and normally those are cosmonauts and then astronauts over in Russia.

[Assistant] Did you work closely with that group, too?

[User] To some extent we had dealings with those. They worked a lot more with International Space Station and with the international partners. They were over here for weekly meetings. They did have tag-ups with the crews on the Mir. There was quite a bit with them. I didn't have a lot of just day-to-day work with them.

[Assistant] Since you've lived this program over the last four years, almost as one long continuous day, you witnessed almost everything that happened. Can you share with us some of the benefits or some of the value that you see has come from working with these international partners and the success of the program as a whole?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have a Russian liaison office here where we have representatives from Russia, Energia, also from RSA, which is the Russian Space Agency that stays on site here, and we have a director of America, which is a counterpart to our director of Russian operations, and normally those are cosmonauts and then astronauts over in Russia.

[Assistant] Did you work closely with that group, too?

[User] To some extent we had dealings with those. They worked a lot more with International Space Station and with the international partners. They were over here for weekly meetings. They did have tag-ups with the crews on the Mir. There was quite a bit with them. I didn't have a lot of just day-to-day work with them.

[Assistant] Since you've lived this program over the last four years, almost as one long continuous day, you witnessed almost everything that happened. Can you share with us some of the benefits or some of the value that you see has come from working with these international partners and the success of the program as a whole?

[User] I think it's going to help put everybody into a cohesive group for the International Space Station. We're learning that there are various cultures out there, various ways of doing business, not necessarily just one way. We're going to have to have that for the International Space Station. No one nation can do it by themselves. I've heard it said by the other astronauts, when you look back at this planet from space, there are no fences; it's all one big globe. We're going to have to work together. I think in the long run is going to be great for our children and our grandchildren.

[Assistant] You've worked in the space program for fifteen years. Do you see over the last year more changes than you ever saw before, or was this kind of running on a routine basis of changes?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To some extent it did. We saw to it that special packages got sent over to Russia to go up on the Progresses for the resupply vehicles, so they could get little special treats for holidays or birthdays, information packets with cards, letters from their families. Sometimes we arranged for communication passes where they could go out to our “ham shack” out back and speak with their mothers, dads, whoever happened to be up there at that time. Occasionally we helped out with things like getting the voting in space, so they could vote from on orbit.

[Assistant] Tell us about that. Tell us who the astronaut was who got to vote.

[User] We were originally doing it, I believe, for Dave Wolf and John Blaha. I'm not sure if either one of them actually voted from space. Wolf may have, but that's what got the President started and got a bill passed. So now we do have that bill, so on the International Space Station that will be handled in that manner. Susan Anderson was the project manager for that, and she could go into much greater detail.

[Assistant] The families or the team members that were over in Russia, they were there for extended periods of time. Were you able to help them work out what they needed?

[User] We saw to it that their supplies got over there, some people for their furnishings and luggage and stuff, to get [unclear] over there, their visas and passports to make sure they could go, and occasionally when they took their families with them, we had to see to it, or we helped out with the process of doing those, since that was extended family, we saw to it that they got everything, all the paperwork done, so that they wouldn't have any difficulties in getting there.

[Assistant] Your life was never the same from one day to the next, and I'm sure you were never bored, but are you glad that you were here the last four years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were originally doing it, I believe, for Dave Wolf and John Blaha. I'm not sure if either one of them actually voted from space. Wolf may have, but that's what got the President started and got a bill passed. So now we do have that bill, so on the International Space Station that will be handled in that manner. Susan Anderson was the project manager for that, and she could go into much greater detail.

[Assistant] The families or the team members that were over in Russia, they were there for extended periods of time. Were you able to help them work out what they needed?

[User] We saw to it that their supplies got over there, some people for their furnishings and luggage and stuff, to get [unclear] over there, their visas and passports to make sure they could go, and occasionally when they took their families with them, we had to see to it, or we helped out with the process of doing those, since that was extended family, we saw to it that they got everything, all the paperwork done, so that they wouldn't have any difficulties in getting there.

[Assistant] Your life was never the same from one day to the next, and I'm sure you were never bored, but are you glad that you were here the last four years?

[User] Very much so. Very much. It's going to be one of the proud moments of my life as I look back on it, some day when I'm in that rocking chair. [Laughter]

[Assistant] No time soon, though, I hope.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We saw to it that their supplies got over there, some people for their furnishings and luggage and stuff, to get [unclear] over there, their visas and passports to make sure they could go, and occasionally when they took their families with them, we had to see to it, or we helped out with the process of doing those, since that was extended family, we saw to it that they got everything, all the paperwork done, so that they wouldn't have any difficulties in getting there.

[Assistant] Your life was never the same from one day to the next, and I'm sure you were never bored, but are you glad that you were here the last four years?

[User] Very much so. Very much. It's going to be one of the proud moments of my life as I look back on it, some day when I'm in that rocking chair. [Laughter]

[Assistant] No time soon, though, I hope.

[User] No time soon. We've got a few more projects ahead. I'd love to see us get to Mars.

[Assistant] Is that what you're hoping to be a participant in at some point, somehow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very much so. Very much. It's going to be one of the proud moments of my life as I look back on it, some day when I'm in that rocking chair. [Laughter]

[Assistant] No time soon, though, I hope.

[User] No time soon. We've got a few more projects ahead. I'd love to see us get to Mars.

[Assistant] Is that what you're hoping to be a participant in at some point, somehow?

[User] Well, it would be nice. I think that's going to be long after I retire, but I would love to live to see us get there.

[Assistant] What was the first mission that you ever worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No time soon. We've got a few more projects ahead. I'd love to see us get to Mars.

[Assistant] Is that what you're hoping to be a participant in at some point, somehow?

[User] Well, it would be nice. I think that's going to be long after I retire, but I would love to live to see us get there.

[Assistant] What was the first mission that you ever worked on?

[User] That was with [Major General] Joe Henry Engle, 51-I back in '85.

[Assistant] I understand that you still support him in a way, because he's involved in the Shuttle-Mir Program as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it would be nice. I think that's going to be long after I retire, but I would love to live to see us get there.

[Assistant] What was the first mission that you ever worked on?

[User] That was with [Major General] Joe Henry Engle, 51-I back in '85.

[Assistant] I understand that you still support him in a way, because he's involved in the Shuttle-Mir Program as well.

[User] Right. He's on the Stafford Task Force, and he does a lot of work there, so he's in and out of the office quite frequently. So I still have a lot of contact with him, and General Stafford, who was also a former astronaut.

[Assistant] Where do you plan to be in the future? Do you know what your plans are as part of the International Space Station as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was with [Major General] Joe Henry Engle, 51-I back in '85.

[Assistant] I understand that you still support him in a way, because he's involved in the Shuttle-Mir Program as well.

[User] Right. He's on the Stafford Task Force, and he does a lot of work there, so he's in and out of the office quite frequently. So I still have a lot of contact with him, and General Stafford, who was also a former astronaut.

[Assistant] Where do you plan to be in the future? Do you know what your plans are as part of the International Space Station as well?

[User] Right now I'll go into it as the same duties I had under the Shuttle-Mir Program as Frank Culbertson's secretary and assistant. I hope to work into the family support plan on that, that's down the road a little ways, but it's being set up and worked because they will need special support for the long-duration crew members and their families. Normally on a Shuttle mission, you're up from anywhere from one week to two weeks, and you see to it that their families are taken down to the Cape and escorted around, and brought back into mission control. For people that are going to be on orbit four to six months, they're going to need a lot more extenuating circumstances. They may need help for things going on at home, seeing to it communications are set up and established, and just all kind of things can be visualized for that.

[Assistant] I think, if nothing else, that we can assume is that your expertise in communications is well known throughout the center and well appreciated.\n\n Do you have anything you'd like to add? We're just going to make a note that Ms. Gilmore has been extremely helpful in this project for the last six months. As we have come in and out of her office, she has pushed us in the right direction and given us direction on who we needed to speak to, so we were glad that she found time to visit with us, and certainly offer anything. It's the time now for you to say anything you'd like to about the Shuttle-Mir Program as a whole.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've got to do kids here in a little while.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I'd like to come back.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Is that okay?

[Assistant] That would work fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'd like to come back.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Is that okay?

[Assistant] That would work fine.

[User] Because then I moved into the Shuttle Program manager job, and, by the way, I brought all those guys over with me at that time. We made it all—probably not immediately, but soon thereafter, so we made it all in one office. But there were a lot of guys who did great work in those days, and it was such a small community dealing mostly with outside people who were in some cases negative towards us, that they probably didn't get the recognition or the reward for it that they should have gotten. But I think they know what they did. They know what they did. It was quite a story. It was quite a time, quite a time. It was sort of big bureaucracy's grinding along tectonic plates and we just happened to be at the plate where we kept getting ground on. [Laughter] But all in all, the people handled it pretty well and did a good job.

[Assistant] Accomplished what you were setting out to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that okay?

[Assistant] That would work fine.

[User] Because then I moved into the Shuttle Program manager job, and, by the way, I brought all those guys over with me at that time. We made it all—probably not immediately, but soon thereafter, so we made it all in one office. But there were a lot of guys who did great work in those days, and it was such a small community dealing mostly with outside people who were in some cases negative towards us, that they probably didn't get the recognition or the reward for it that they should have gotten. But I think they know what they did. They know what they did. It was quite a story. It was quite a time, quite a time. It was sort of big bureaucracy's grinding along tectonic plates and we just happened to be at the plate where we kept getting ground on. [Laughter] But all in all, the people handled it pretty well and did a good job.

[Assistant] Accomplished what you were setting out to.

[User] Yes, did a good job. And we didn't know at the beginning, we didn't really know what the dimensions of this thing we were getting into called payload integration really was, but we sure learned. Took us a while, but we learned and turned it into something that was workable. If you go over and talk to people today, they'll still talk about the same things. It's amusing to me when I hear them talking, because I listen to it now and then, or I hear it now and then, and it's like these things were written in stone by the ancients, you know, passed into the shrouded mystery of time, and they don't even know where they came from. But they all talk about these events, the CIR and the IHSR and the FOR and all this stuff. They do, they talk about it like it's chiseled in stone and came down somehow from some alien civilization that gave it to us. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I guess it has a longstanding impact, then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we did. There were some areas set up as representative of the type of terrain that it would need to be able to traverse. Again, I don’t recall any real problems or difficulties. Very early in the design it had already been decided that the vehicle would have a double Ackerman steering mechanism, which means like on your car, the front wheels steer. On the rover, the rear wheels steer as well, and a very clever redundant system was made whereby if either the front or the rear failed, you were able to line them up and pin them or lock them, and disengage that drive and then use the other, either the front or the back alone. You didn’t have as tight a turning radius, but you could still maneuver and still use the vehicle.\n\n The rover is a very ingenious vehicle, really, in that respect of redundancy, because it not only had two separate and independent steering mechanisms where, as I mentioned, using them together, you had much more maneuverability, but you could still get around on the surface of the Moon with either the fore or the aft mechanism.\n\n Then the drive mechanism for the wheels were four independent electric batteries, so you could lose, in fact, up to three of them and you could limp back to the lunar vehicle with one wheel going on the rover.

[Assistant] Amazing. It must have been quite something to watch it come together a piece at a time.

[User] It was. It was very interesting to see it develop. The interesting thing is that once the initial concept design was laid out and a mockup was made out of plywood, it didn’t really change very much from that initial concept. It was kept very simple, kind of like the jeep during World War II. Its initial concept was very similar to what we ended up at the end of the war with.

[Assistant] Very durable.

[User] Yes, very durable, very maneuverable, very flexible, very usable.

[Assistant] You’ve told us about working with the rocket flyer. Were there any other concepts that you were involved with regarding suggestions for using—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was very interesting to see it develop. The interesting thing is that once the initial concept design was laid out and a mockup was made out of plywood, it didn’t really change very much from that initial concept. It was kept very simple, kind of like the jeep during World War II. Its initial concept was very similar to what we ended up at the end of the war with.

[Assistant] Very durable.

[User] Yes, very durable, very maneuverable, very flexible, very usable.

[Assistant] You’ve told us about working with the rocket flyer. Were there any other concepts that you were involved with regarding suggestions for using—

[User] No. Those were the only two that seemed to still have survived by the time that I was assigned to help with that development. I know I remember hearing of a two-wheeled vehicle, kind of like a motorcycle, but I think that was dropped very early, realizing that in the suit, in the inflated suit, that type of vehicle really wasn’t the most desirable to use.\n\n As a matter of fact, the rocket belt was dropped fairly early because of the concern of kicking up dust and losing your landing site and disturbing the geology and where you were going to go check out an area, by the exhaust of that rocket site. Not only displacing material that you might want to take off the very top surface, the dust-type thing, but also the remnants of the rocket fuel itself becoming interspersed with the dust and you wouldn’t know what was there before and what you brought with you. Contaminating is what I’m trying to say. Contaminating the surface, the soil where you were landing.

[Assistant] [Donald K.] Deke Slayton assigned you to be part of the support crew for Apollo 10, which was going to be the dress rehearsal of sorts for the lunar landing. Can you share your experiences and the training involved that was necessary for this position and some of the duties that you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. We sure did. It really was almost a direct development of the prime crew patch, the Apollo 14 crew patch. We had, as I mentioned, told them we were right behind them and we were going to beat them to the launch pad if they didn’t keep a quick pace up. I don’t remember where it started, but we acquired the nickname “the roadrunner,” so our crew patch, that I think Gene was most instrumental in designing, in place of the astronaut symbol, leaving the Earth and on its way to lunar trajectory, we replaced that with Wiley Coyote with a long beard, because we were merciless in kidding Al about how old he was and how he was really too old to go anyway. Then on the lunar surface, which was on the prime crew patch, the roadrunner was sitting there waiting for Al Shepard to get there with his crew, with a “Beep Beep” on the patch.

[Assistant] Our research shows that at one point you and Gene Cernan bet Alan Shepard and Ed Mitchell a case of scotch if they couldn’t make it to the top of the Cone Crater if they dragged the MET [Mobile Equipment Transporter] up there with them. Can you tell us how that bet came about and why you posed that?

[User] Oh, they made it. They did it okay, and we knew they would, but that was a good-natured bet to—I mean, we wanted to do that anyway. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Did you send up some of your patches to find during the mission?

[User] We were able to stow a number of patches, as a matter of fact, in the packet, in with their clothes and food so that as they opened up different things during the mission, why, every once in a while they would be treated to one of our crew patches. And we would hear about it in very carefully worded transmissions from Al and Ed.

[Assistant] You must have made friends along the way of all the people that helped get these mission patches up on the equipment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they made it. They did it okay, and we knew they would, but that was a good-natured bet to—I mean, we wanted to do that anyway. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Did you send up some of your patches to find during the mission?

[User] We were able to stow a number of patches, as a matter of fact, in the packet, in with their clothes and food so that as they opened up different things during the mission, why, every once in a while they would be treated to one of our crew patches. And we would hear about it in very carefully worded transmissions from Al and Ed.

[Assistant] You must have made friends along the way of all the people that helped get these mission patches up on the equipment.

[User] It was fun. A lot of people really enjoyed it. It was a great motivation and incentive. Everybody was very professional, but we had fun on that mission. We sure did. And the nice thing was that Al and Ed and Stu brought all the patches back. I think they kept some for themselves, but they gave the patches back to us after the mission.

[Assistant] In Cernan’s book, he mentions that just a month before the launch of Apollo 14, there were some discussions about possibly moving you to be the LM [Lunar Module] pilot for Apollo 14. Were you aware at the time that they may be moving you into that slot?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was. As soon as the decision was made from a budgetary standpoint to cancel Apollo 18, 19, and 20, soon after that—I won’t say as soon as, but soon after that, then the discussion surfaced that the scientific community was very avid and pushing very hard to get [Harrison H.] Jack Schmitt on the surface of the Moon, because Jack had a doctorate degree in field geology and, of course, that’s what the lunar missions were all about. So it was a perfectly legitimate rationale to consider and to see if it were able to get Jack ready to go on the last mission, Apollo 17, rather than on Apollo 18, which he would have been scheduled for. Jack was backup for Apollo 15.\n\n So, yes, there was no secret about it. It was being discussed openly. I think that both Gene and Deke, their first choice would have been to leave the crew intact, but I think that there was a great deal of pressure on them, and understandably so. So I was told that the decision had been made and that Jack was going to replace me on Apollo 17.

[Assistant] Was that information given to you by Deke Slayton?

[User] Actually, I think it was Al Shepard that called me into the office. Al was the head of the Astronaut Office at the time. I think it was Al, after he had returned, told me that that was what would happen.

[Assistant] What were your options for assignments after this decision? As you mentioned, the final Apollo missions had been cancelled, so what were going to be your options?

[User] Let’s see. I think the next program already being talked about was Skylab. I can’t remember the sequence or how quickly the missions downstream began to be formulated, but Apollo-Soyuz was also another mission coming up, and the Space Shuttle was in its very early preliminary design phases. It was a program that was going to be not too far down the road, we hoped.

[Assistant] Were you able to select where you wanted to move into?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, I think it was Al Shepard that called me into the office. Al was the head of the Astronaut Office at the time. I think it was Al, after he had returned, told me that that was what would happen.

[Assistant] What were your options for assignments after this decision? As you mentioned, the final Apollo missions had been cancelled, so what were going to be your options?

[User] Let’s see. I think the next program already being talked about was Skylab. I can’t remember the sequence or how quickly the missions downstream began to be formulated, but Apollo-Soyuz was also another mission coming up, and the Space Shuttle was in its very early preliminary design phases. It was a program that was going to be not too far down the road, we hoped.

[Assistant] Were you able to select where you wanted to move into?

[User] I wouldn’t say I was able to select, but Deke was very, very good about it and asked me, in a one-to-one conversation, not promising that I would be assigned to a Skylab or not promising I would be assigned to the Apollo-Soyuz mission, but implying that if I were interested in that, he would sure consider that very heavily. Then he also indicated that the Space Shuttle looked like it was going to be funded and looked like it was going to be a real program.\n\n So at the time, I think I responded something to the effect that it had a stick and rudder and wings and was an airplane, and was kind of more the kind of vehicle that I felt I could contribute more to. And Deke concurred with that. He said, “That was my opinion, but if you want to fly sooner than that, I was ready to help out.” I think Deke was happy that I had indicated I would just as soon wait for the Space Shuttle and be part of that program, the early testing on that program.

[Assistant] Did you have the option of returning back to the Air Force to get another assignment from them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was, yes.

[Assistant] Were you in Mission Control when they successfully landed and returned?

[User] Yes, I was. Yes. It was a pretty happy day, happy location, happy site, when that happened.

[Assistant] Tell us how you began working with the Shuttle development, at what point. We know that you were involved with the approach and landing tests, but did you work with the Shuttle in its development in some of the testing stages before you moved into that phase?

[User] Yes, in fact, I even was working during the selection, the down-select of manufacturers in the conceptual design of the Shuttle. I do remember Rockwell and McDonnell Douglas [Corporation] and Grumman were three of the primary competitors initially and had different design concepts for the Shuttle, all pretty much the same, but they were significantly different in shape and in configuration for launch, using different types of boosters and things.\n\n I was part of that selection process only as an engineer and a pilot, and assessing a very small part of the data that went into the final selection. But it was interesting. It was very, very interesting, and it, fortunately, allowed me to pull on some of the experience that I had gotten at Edwards in flight testing, in trying to assess what might be the most reasonable approach to either flying initial flights, data-gathering, and things of that nature.

[Assistant] In [19]’72, [NASA] Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California] started testing and verifying the computer hardware and software, and then following a few years later with the parachute recovery system and the tile testing. Were you involved in any of those aspects during those time periods?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s it. Some of the astronauts were just big about themselves; they just were who they would have been before they were selected. Other people got in trouble, and they would begin to, say, maybe get full of themselves, let’s say it that way. “Oh, I’m an astronaut, I know all this.”\n\n I said, “Here, you’re not showing me anything so far.”

[Assistant] We’re going to be asking you if they’re ready to go, right?

[User] Yes. It was just that important thing, and it was also teaching the instructors. I said, “Your job is to keep them alive; make sure their wife is not a widow, okay?” In that case, we’d say it that way because that was all there was, only men. But you’ve got to keep them alive, which means if they’re screwing up, you got to call it on it. That’s why when we got into Shuttle, later, I instituted a thing where the same crew had the same instructors all the time. That way, they got way past that, “Oh, this is John Young, and I’m [only] a GS-9 and I can’t tell him what to do.”\n\n I said, “You’re going to have a beer with him after work and you’re going to do all kinds of stuff, and when he screws up, you’ve seen him, so you’ll be able to talk to it.” It worked out well. I would still fly that way, some instructors are prime on each crew, would have a set of dedicated instructors.

[Assistant] It’s interesting to listen how you created your own playbook in order to instruct your instructors on how to coach.

[User] Yes, it was important to do that. It’s kind of what happened—I didn’t like the way we trained Apollo, so after Skylab, when I got thrown out of flight control, that’s a whole other story.

[Assistant] We’ll get to that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was just that important thing, and it was also teaching the instructors. I said, “Your job is to keep them alive; make sure their wife is not a widow, okay?” In that case, we’d say it that way because that was all there was, only men. But you’ve got to keep them alive, which means if they’re screwing up, you got to call it on it. That’s why when we got into Shuttle, later, I instituted a thing where the same crew had the same instructors all the time. That way, they got way past that, “Oh, this is John Young, and I’m [only] a GS-9 and I can’t tell him what to do.”\n\n I said, “You’re going to have a beer with him after work and you’re going to do all kinds of stuff, and when he screws up, you’ve seen him, so you’ll be able to talk to it.” It worked out well. I would still fly that way, some instructors are prime on each crew, would have a set of dedicated instructors.

[Assistant] It’s interesting to listen how you created your own playbook in order to instruct your instructors on how to coach.

[User] Yes, it was important to do that. It’s kind of what happened—I didn’t like the way we trained Apollo, so after Skylab, when I got thrown out of flight control, that’s a whole other story.

[Assistant] We’ll get to that.

[User] Yes, come back to that the next time. I would set out to create a very professional team of people who would be able to do, whether I was there or not, they were going to get it done.

[Assistant] How did the Lunar Rover make any difference on how you trained your astronauts?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly, exactly. “No, no,” it’s like, “Okay, just another gator.”

[Assistant] Just another day?

[User] We used to have a sign in that building—because the way the floor is raised 3 feet above the cement and there’s all the cables running, when you had to feel a cable sometimes, follow it—it says, “If the cable moves, let go.” They would get in sometimes, and all of a sudden, a big, python-looking bullsnake, or sometimes even a rattlesnake, but they’ll let you know if you’re in close, but it was generally not a dangerous one, but you don’t want to find out.

[Assistant] No, I don’t even want to think about the pranks that might have been played with snakes and gators.

[User] Yes, exactly.

[Assistant] Horrible, horrible. We’re right around the time—you want to stop, or you want to go on and finish and talk about the rest of Apollo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Born in Oakland, California, and grew up there until high school time and then moved to Piedmont, which is right next to Oakland.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And did you have brothers and sisters?

[User] I have one sister.

[Assistant] Older, younger?

[User] Younger.

[Assistant] And so it was just a family of mother, father, two kids.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have one sister.

[Assistant] Older, younger?

[User] Younger.

[Assistant] And so it was just a family of mother, father, two kids.

[User] That's right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. You go, you went to school in Oakland?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Younger.

[Assistant] And so it was just a family of mother, father, two kids.

[User] That's right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. You go, you went to school in Oakland?

[User] I went to school in Oakland. And then in Piedmont for high school.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Public schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. You go, you went to school in Oakland?

[User] I went to school in Oakland. And then in Piedmont for high school.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Public schools?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And what did your parents do for a living?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to school in Oakland. And then in Piedmont for high school.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Public schools?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And what did your parents do for a living?

[User] My dad was a engineer, and my mom didn't have an official job.

[Assistant] Oh yes, she did. She took care of the family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And what did your parents do for a living?

[User] My dad was a engineer, and my mom didn't have an official job.

[Assistant] Oh yes, she did. She took care of the family.

[User] Took care of the family.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Good. So did you take, with your family, did you take vacations together?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My dad was a engineer, and my mom didn't have an official job.

[Assistant] Oh yes, she did. She took care of the family.

[User] Took care of the family.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Good. So did you take, with your family, did you take vacations together?

[User] We did. We went to places like Lake Tahoe. And, um, hmm. Let me see. I don't know if we actually went to Yosemite. Yeah, we went to Yosemite also. That sort of thing.

[Assistant] In the family car?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Took care of the family.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Good. So did you take, with your family, did you take vacations together?

[User] We did. We went to places like Lake Tahoe. And, um, hmm. Let me see. I don't know if we actually went to Yosemite. Yeah, we went to Yosemite also. That sort of thing.

[Assistant] In the family car?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Sounds very good. So you go to high school in Piedmont. And what kind of high school kid were you? What did you, what were you interested in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Sounds very good. So you go to high school in Piedmont. And what kind of high school kid were you? What did you, what were you interested in?

[User] Well, um, I didn't really have strong interests. I think the most interesting class for me was one in mechanical drafting. Um. And I have a recollection of taking driver's ed there and having some challenges with that in high school. But anyway, um, so I was kind of quiet, pretty quiet. I didn't really get involved in, in school activities.

[Assistant] Sports?

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Did you study a foreign language in high school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Did you study a foreign language in high school?

[User] Well, I think we had to. I think I studied Spanish.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And the only language in your home was English, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think we had to. I think I studied Spanish.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And the only language in your home was English, right?

[User] English, yes.

[Assistant] So you studied Spanish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And the only language in your home was English, right?

[User] English, yes.

[Assistant] So you studied Spanish?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like it was memorable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] English, yes.

[Assistant] So you studied Spanish?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like it was memorable.

[User] No, no. I never used it much so, yeah.

[Assistant] And then you. So did you have part time jobs when you were in high school? Summer jobs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It doesn't sound like it was memorable.

[User] No, no. I never used it much so, yeah.

[Assistant] And then you. So did you have part time jobs when you were in high school? Summer jobs?

[User] I think I did. I got to remember, um, the timeline for that. I don't know if I actually had one in high school. When I was in college I did.

[Assistant] What'd you do in college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I never used it much so, yeah.

[Assistant] And then you. So did you have part time jobs when you were in high school? Summer jobs?

[User] I think I did. I got to remember, um, the timeline for that. I don't know if I actually had one in high school. When I was in college I did.

[Assistant] What'd you do in college?

[User] You mean for summer jobs, you mean?

[Assistant] Yeah. And yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I did. I got to remember, um, the timeline for that. I don't know if I actually had one in high school. When I was in college I did.

[Assistant] What'd you do in college?

[User] You mean for summer jobs, you mean?

[Assistant] Yeah. And yeah.

[User] I had, for a couple of summers I worked on the BART system, you know, the rapid transit system.

[Assistant] Oh yeah, sure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean for summer jobs, you mean?

[Assistant] Yeah. And yeah.

[User] I had, for a couple of summers I worked on the BART system, you know, the rapid transit system.

[Assistant] Oh yeah, sure.

[User] They were building that.

[Assistant] Hmm. And what kind of work was that, construction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were building that.

[Assistant] Hmm. And what kind of work was that, construction?

[User] Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely construction.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I was just a, you know, an assistant to an engineer and whatever things he asked me to do, I did. Um, had a job with PG&E, a summer job, and another one with Bechtel. They're both, you know, PG&E, you know who that is? That's the, or maybe you don't. Our electrical utility company.

[Assistant] Okay. The P would be Pacific maybe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was just a, you know, an assistant to an engineer and whatever things he asked me to do, I did. Um, had a job with PG&E, a summer job, and another one with Bechtel. They're both, you know, PG&E, you know who that is? That's the, or maybe you don't. Our electrical utility company.

[Assistant] Okay. The P would be Pacific maybe?

[User] Pacific Gas and Electric.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In Wisconsin we have MG&E, which is Madison.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pacific Gas and Electric.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In Wisconsin we have MG&E, which is Madison.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So yeah, that's pretty much it.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so what about in college? What did you major in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In Wisconsin we have MG&E, which is Madison.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So yeah, that's pretty much it.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so what about in college? What did you major in?

[User] Majors in engineering.

[Assistant] And what school was that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] University of California at Berkeley.

[Assistant] At Berkeley.

[User] Yeah. So that was electrical engineering. And I got a bachelor's degree in that.

[Assistant] Electrical engineering?

[User] Electrical engineering.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And then at some point, you got an interest in joining the Peace Corps. Was that right after college or was there an interim thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So that was electrical engineering. And I got a bachelor's degree in that.

[Assistant] Electrical engineering?

[User] Electrical engineering.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And then at some point, you got an interest in joining the Peace Corps. Was that right after college or was there an interim thing?

[User] Well, it's interesting because I had this desire to ride a bicycle across country. And I, when I graduated from college, I did that. So that took a couple of months.

[Assistant] So you bicycled from California to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Electrical engineering.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And then at some point, you got an interest in joining the Peace Corps. Was that right after college or was there an interim thing?

[User] Well, it's interesting because I had this desire to ride a bicycle across country. And I, when I graduated from college, I did that. So that took a couple of months.

[Assistant] So you bicycled from California to?

[User] Actually from New York to California.

[Assistant] The other way around. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's interesting because I had this desire to ride a bicycle across country. And I, when I graduated from college, I did that. So that took a couple of months.

[Assistant] So you bicycled from California to?

[User] Actually from New York to California.

[Assistant] The other way around. Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] By yourself or did you have a buddy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I found the person through a want ad.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] That also wanted to do that. Yeah, I didn't. I know. To do that alone is very difficult.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, it's just not very easy to watch everything and take care of everything. Just one person.

[Assistant] And it's much more fun with a buddy too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, it's just not very easy to watch everything and take care of everything. Just one person.

[Assistant] And it's much more fun with a buddy too.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So joining the Peace Corps. Well, um, after the bicycle ride, I had another job with Bechtel as like a junior engineer. And I just realized that it wasn't really something I felt like doing as a lifetime sort of thing.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And the Peace Corps, for me, was a chance to, um, look at something different, you know, see the world. I thought maybe I would like teaching and it would give me the chance to do that. So those sort of things pushed me to join the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So you applied. Did you send in your application after the bike ride or even before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So joining the Peace Corps. Well, um, after the bicycle ride, I had another job with Bechtel as like a junior engineer. And I just realized that it wasn't really something I felt like doing as a lifetime sort of thing.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And the Peace Corps, for me, was a chance to, um, look at something different, you know, see the world. I thought maybe I would like teaching and it would give me the chance to do that. So those sort of things pushed me to join the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So you applied. Did you send in your application after the bike ride or even before?

[User] Afterwards. It was after that and after I had started working.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you sent in your application. Did you tell your folks that you were doing this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the Peace Corps, for me, was a chance to, um, look at something different, you know, see the world. I thought maybe I would like teaching and it would give me the chance to do that. So those sort of things pushed me to join the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] So you applied. Did you send in your application after the bike ride or even before?

[User] Afterwards. It was after that and after I had started working.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you sent in your application. Did you tell your folks that you were doing this?

[User] Uh, I think I did, yeah.

[Assistant] Were they pretty supportive of the idea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Afterwards. It was after that and after I had started working.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you sent in your application. Did you tell your folks that you were doing this?

[User] Uh, I think I did, yeah.

[Assistant] Were they pretty supportive of the idea?

[User] No. Well, you know, they already knew from the bike ride that I kind of had this independent way of doing stuff. So I guess they kind of figured that I was going to do it no matter what. But, you know, their, their, their hope was, I think, because, you know, my dad's an engineer and parents want their kids to have a stable kind of not dangerous life. So, um, yeah, they didn't like it so much. But when I, when I did go, they were, you know, we're always connected by letters. You know, there's, we didn't have the ways of communicating that we have now

[Assistant] Right. That's right. Blue aero letters, is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I think I did, yeah.

[Assistant] Were they pretty supportive of the idea?

[User] No. Well, you know, they already knew from the bike ride that I kind of had this independent way of doing stuff. So I guess they kind of figured that I was going to do it no matter what. But, you know, their, their, their hope was, I think, because, you know, my dad's an engineer and parents want their kids to have a stable kind of not dangerous life. So, um, yeah, they didn't like it so much. But when I, when I did go, they were, you know, we're always connected by letters. You know, there's, we didn't have the ways of communicating that we have now

[Assistant] Right. That's right. Blue aero letters, is that?

[User] That's exactly right.

[Assistant] Yes. So you get, you send in your application and then you had to wait for a while. Did the app, do you remember if the application asked you if there was any part of the world where you would not want to be assigned? Or if you had a preference for a particular place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's exactly right.

[Assistant] Yes. So you get, you send in your application and then you had to wait for a while. Did the app, do you remember if the application asked you if there was any part of the world where you would not want to be assigned? Or if you had a preference for a particular place?

[User] I don't remember. I think it was more like they wanted to assign me to a technical teaching sort of thing. And maybe it was like, here's the choices.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Maybe there were several countries that they said it was possible. And I don't remember really if I said, what I said.

[Assistant] Okay, that's all right. And then eventually you get a letter. Did it come, did the news come to you via letter that you'd been accepted to train for a particular place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember. I think it was more like they wanted to assign me to a technical teaching sort of thing. And maybe it was like, here's the choices.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Maybe there were several countries that they said it was possible. And I don't remember really if I said, what I said.

[Assistant] Okay, that's all right. And then eventually you get a letter. Did it come, did the news come to you via letter that you'd been accepted to train for a particular place?

[User] I don't remember. I suppose it did.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And, um, then you had to say goodbye to your family.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe there were several countries that they said it was possible. And I don't remember really if I said, what I said.

[Assistant] Okay, that's all right. And then eventually you get a letter. Did it come, did the news come to you via letter that you'd been accepted to train for a particular place?

[User] I don't remember. I suppose it did.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And, um, then you had to say goodbye to your family.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And to your, I can't remember, was it a sister?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember. I suppose it did.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. And, um, then you had to say goodbye to your family.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And to your, I can't remember, was it a sister?

[User] Sister.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a big party?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And to your, I can't remember, was it a sister?

[User] Sister.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a big party?

[User] I don't think we did. No.

[Assistant] I didn't either. And then, um, off you went. And so was the training here in the United States or was it in-country in Iran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sister.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a big party?

[User] I don't think we did. No.

[Assistant] I didn't either. And then, um, off you went. And so was the training here in the United States or was it in-country in Iran?

[User] Well, the way this worked is that we, our group to Iran, gathered in I think it was Philadelphia, and there was like a four day sort of orientation thing and.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Shots? Did you have to line up and get immunizations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think we did. No.

[Assistant] I didn't either. And then, um, off you went. And so was the training here in the United States or was it in-country in Iran?

[User] Well, the way this worked is that we, our group to Iran, gathered in I think it was Philadelphia, and there was like a four day sort of orientation thing and.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Shots? Did you have to line up and get immunizations?

[User] I don't remember. Probably had to get some done before that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Yeah. And the orientation would have been nuts and bolts about Iran or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the way this worked is that we, our group to Iran, gathered in I think it was Philadelphia, and there was like a four day sort of orientation thing and.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. Shots? Did you have to line up and get immunizations?

[User] I don't remember. Probably had to get some done before that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Yeah. And the orientation would have been nuts and bolts about Iran or something?

[User] I just don't remember.

[Assistant] It's hard to remember, right. What do you, what do you remember? What? How many people were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just don't remember.

[Assistant] It's hard to remember, right. What do you, what do you remember? What? How many people were there?

[User] Well, I know our group had about 150.

[Assistant] Oh, huge.

[User] And, um, I guess one of the main points was they wanted to sort out, you know, who was really qualified and, you know, like able to go to Iran and manage there, I think.

[Assistant] And they were able to figure that out in four days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I know our group had about 150.

[Assistant] Oh, huge.

[User] And, um, I guess one of the main points was they wanted to sort out, you know, who was really qualified and, you know, like able to go to Iran and manage there, I think.

[Assistant] And they were able to figure that out in four days?

[User] I don't know. I guess they figured some of it out.

[Assistant] Were there some people who didn't get past Philadelphia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, um, I guess one of the main points was they wanted to sort out, you know, who was really qualified and, you know, like able to go to Iran and manage there, I think.

[Assistant] And they were able to figure that out in four days?

[User] I don't know. I guess they figured some of it out.

[Assistant] Were there some people who didn't get past Philadelphia?

[User] I don't know for a fact.

[Assistant] Yeah. And this group of people, were they, um, they're all going to be teachers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. I guess they figured some of it out.

[Assistant] Were there some people who didn't get past Philadelphia?

[User] I don't know for a fact.

[Assistant] Yeah. And this group of people, were they, um, they're all going to be teachers?

[User] Yes, they were going to be either English teachers or vocational type teachers like me.

[Assistant] Mixture of men and women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, they were going to be either English teachers or vocational type teachers like me.

[Assistant] Mixture of men and women?

[User] Yeah. And there were some married couples also. Just, just a few, two or three, I think.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So then you all get on a plane in Philadelphia or New York, you flew out of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And there were some married couples also. Just, just a few, two or three, I think.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So then you all get on a plane in Philadelphia or New York, you flew out of?

[User] Well, I guess it was Philadelphia.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And did the plane take you directly to Iran, or were there some stops along the way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess it was Philadelphia.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And did the plane take you directly to Iran, or were there some stops along the way?

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, basically, it was like that plane was our plane.

[Assistant] Yeah. You filled it? Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, basically, it was like that plane was our plane.

[Assistant] Yeah. You filled it? Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Had you been abroad before? Had you been in Europe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Had you been abroad before? Had you been in Europe?

[User] No. No. The most I've been out of the country was Canada. You know, very limited.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So now you're crossing the ocean. That's a long, long flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. The most I've been out of the country was Canada. You know, very limited.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So now you're crossing the ocean. That's a long, long flight.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And eventually you land in Tehran, I assume?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So now you're crossing the ocean. That's a long, long flight.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And eventually you land in Tehran, I assume?

[User] Yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember your first impressions when you stepped off the plane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember your first impressions when you stepped off the plane?

[User] No. Uh. We were just there for maybe one day or something like that. And then we all went to Rezaiyeh, which is on the west side of the country.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] And the government had given us a, I think it was like an elementary school that was for our training people to live there and have our instruction there. And that lasted all summer.

[Assistant] So you went over at the beginning of summer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the government had given us a, I think it was like an elementary school that was for our training people to live there and have our instruction there. And that lasted all summer.

[Assistant] So you went over at the beginning of summer?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] June, maybe?

[User] I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. And what's summer like in Iran? What, is it hot? I've never been there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] June, maybe?

[User] I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. And what's summer like in Iran? What, is it hot? I've never been there.

[User] Oh, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty hot. It wasn't extremely hot. I don't know what to compare it to, though, but it wasn't outlandish.

[Assistant] And in Rezaiyeh at this elementary school, what sort of accommodations do they provide for you during training? Were you living with a family or were you in a dorm?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty hot. It wasn't extremely hot. I don't know what to compare it to, though, but it wasn't outlandish.

[Assistant] And in Rezaiyeh at this elementary school, what sort of accommodations do they provide for you during training? Were you living with a family or were you in a dorm?

[User] I think we were in a dorm, yeah.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you'd be paired up with another guy or a couple of guys?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So you'd be paired up with another guy or a couple of guys?

[User] I think it was like a big room full of guys.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] I think so, yeah.

[Assistant] And you'd eat dorm food?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was like a big room full of guys.

[Assistant] Really?

[User] I think so, yeah.

[Assistant] And you'd eat dorm food?

[User] Whatever they cooked for us. What did we have? You know, like the big round loaves of bread for breakfast and honey and cheese, I think. And, gosh, I think for dinner they, like, pushed us out the door. You know, they wanted us to go and see things. So I think we got dinner on our own. I think.

[Assistant] So they must have provided you with a little pocket money.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so, yeah.

[Assistant] And you'd eat dorm food?

[User] Whatever they cooked for us. What did we have? You know, like the big round loaves of bread for breakfast and honey and cheese, I think. And, gosh, I think for dinner they, like, pushed us out the door. You know, they wanted us to go and see things. So I think we got dinner on our own. I think.

[Assistant] So they must have provided you with a little pocket money.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So in training, what was training all about? What did you learn in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Whatever they cooked for us. What did we have? You know, like the big round loaves of bread for breakfast and honey and cheese, I think. And, gosh, I think for dinner they, like, pushed us out the door. You know, they wanted us to go and see things. So I think we got dinner on our own. I think.

[Assistant] So they must have provided you with a little pocket money.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. So in training, what was training all about? What did you learn in training?

[User] Well, the big thing was the language.

[Assistant] And the language is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the big thing was the language.

[Assistant] And the language is?

[User] Farsi.

[Assistant] Farsi.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, that was the main thing. That was like at least half of each day, maybe more. I don't remember exactly. But then they also gave us some training in how to prepare like slides and even how to develop slide film, you know, with chemicals. They showed us how to do that.

[Assistant] For teaching purposes? Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Farsi.

[Assistant] Farsi.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, that was the main thing. That was like at least half of each day, maybe more. I don't remember exactly. But then they also gave us some training in how to prepare like slides and even how to develop slide film, you know, with chemicals. They showed us how to do that.

[Assistant] For teaching purposes? Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How to make your own slides.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How to make your own slides.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Yeah. The whole thing.

[Assistant] This is assuming that you'd have a slide projector available.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. The whole thing.

[Assistant] This is assuming that you'd have a slide projector available.

[User] Yeah, it does assume that, doesn't it?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No, but I never, I never actually did that. I don't know if any of us did that.

[Assistant] Oh. Um, let's go back to learning Farsi a little bit. How was that taught? Were you in, there's 150 of you, so they divide you up into small groups for language instruction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it does assume that, doesn't it?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No, but I never, I never actually did that. I don't know if any of us did that.

[Assistant] Oh. Um, let's go back to learning Farsi a little bit. How was that taught? Were you in, there's 150 of you, so they divide you up into small groups for language instruction?

[User] I guess they did. I'm sorry, I don't remember. But we had like a half dozen teachers there. So they must, they must have done that.

[Assistant] And the teachers were native speakers of Farsi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess they did. I'm sorry, I don't remember. But we had like a half dozen teachers there. So they must, they must have done that.

[Assistant] And the teachers were native speakers of Farsi?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Iranian people.

[User] They were Iranian people.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the summer, when training is over, did you feel that you could converse a little bit in Farsi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Iranian people.

[User] They were Iranian people.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the summer, when training is over, did you feel that you could converse a little bit in Farsi?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's awesome. Do you remember a phrase or two of it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were Iranian people.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the summer, when training is over, did you feel that you could converse a little bit in Farsi?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's awesome. Do you remember a phrase or two of it?

[User] Uh, [speaks Farsi]. My name is Mike. I learned a little bit of Farsi. [speaks Farsi]. You know, like, but see, that's the thing that's amazing is that because I used it, you know, then I can remember some of it.

[Assistant] Right. So, yeah, we'll get into how you used it in a minute. Yeah. So what else? Let's see. So in your training, your training consisted largely of learning to understand and speak Farsi.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's awesome. Do you remember a phrase or two of it?

[User] Uh, [speaks Farsi]. My name is Mike. I learned a little bit of Farsi. [speaks Farsi]. You know, like, but see, that's the thing that's amazing is that because I used it, you know, then I can remember some of it.

[Assistant] Right. So, yeah, we'll get into how you used it in a minute. Yeah. So what else? Let's see. So in your training, your training consisted largely of learning to understand and speak Farsi.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And was it a written language? Did you learn to read and write it too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] Well, they tried to teach us that, whether we learned it or not is another story.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But, but there was a big effort, you know, like immersion kind of training. And like I say, you know, making us go out and get meals and stuff.

[Assistant] Sure. And then there was technical education, in your case, learning how to make slides, even though you might not have learned it later. Did that give you a glimmer of a certain kind of teaching and learning experience of actually hands on making things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they tried to teach us that, whether we learned it or not is another story.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But, but there was a big effort, you know, like immersion kind of training. And like I say, you know, making us go out and get meals and stuff.

[Assistant] Sure. And then there was technical education, in your case, learning how to make slides, even though you might not have learned it later. Did that give you a glimmer of a certain kind of teaching and learning experience of actually hands on making things?

[User] Well, I've got to remember what else they showed us. I mean, that was so unique. It kind of stuck in my mind. But I'm thinking that they also, like how to do flip charts and, you know, other teaching aids, what you could do. That's the one that I really do remember.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did you do any practice teaching in the course of that summer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, but there was a big effort, you know, like immersion kind of training. And like I say, you know, making us go out and get meals and stuff.

[Assistant] Sure. And then there was technical education, in your case, learning how to make slides, even though you might not have learned it later. Did that give you a glimmer of a certain kind of teaching and learning experience of actually hands on making things?

[User] Well, I've got to remember what else they showed us. I mean, that was so unique. It kind of stuck in my mind. But I'm thinking that they also, like how to do flip charts and, you know, other teaching aids, what you could do. That's the one that I really do remember.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did you do any practice teaching in the course of that summer?

[User] I don't remember. Probably. That would make sense, wouldn't it? But I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay. So eventually training comes to an end and there must have been a swearing in ceremony and something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I've got to remember what else they showed us. I mean, that was so unique. It kind of stuck in my mind. But I'm thinking that they also, like how to do flip charts and, you know, other teaching aids, what you could do. That's the one that I really do remember.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. Did you do any practice teaching in the course of that summer?

[User] I don't remember. Probably. That would make sense, wouldn't it? But I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay. So eventually training comes to an end and there must have been a swearing in ceremony and something.

[User] Did we do something like that? I don't remember. Probably had a going away party, but.

[Assistant] I think there was probably a swearing in thing where you raise your right hand and.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember. Probably. That would make sense, wouldn't it? But I don't remember.

[Assistant] Okay. So eventually training comes to an end and there must have been a swearing in ceremony and something.

[User] Did we do something like that? I don't remember. Probably had a going away party, but.

[Assistant] I think there was probably a swearing in thing where you raise your right hand and.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And that would either have been in Philadelphia or more likely in Iran.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did we do something like that? I don't remember. Probably had a going away party, but.

[Assistant] I think there was probably a swearing in thing where you raise your right hand and.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And that would either have been in Philadelphia or more likely in Iran.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And then they send you off to an assignment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And that would either have been in Philadelphia or more likely in Iran.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] And then they send you off to an assignment.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Where did they send you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Where did they send you?

[User] Well, mine, mine was Isfahan. And that's the second largest city.

[Assistant] Isfahan.

[User] It's, you know, a main tourist city. It has these old buildings there. Um, so there were two of us, a guy from Texas and me, and we were sent to two different schools to teach this vocational electro technique.

[Assistant] Vocational electro technique?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, mine, mine was Isfahan. And that's the second largest city.

[Assistant] Isfahan.

[User] It's, you know, a main tourist city. It has these old buildings there. Um, so there were two of us, a guy from Texas and me, and we were sent to two different schools to teach this vocational electro technique.

[Assistant] Vocational electro technique?

[User] Well, what it means is that it would, ideally would qualify the person to be an electrician to install wiring, you know, like in a home or building, that sort of thing. All electrical equipment.

[Assistant] Training people for a trade.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's, you know, a main tourist city. It has these old buildings there. Um, so there were two of us, a guy from Texas and me, and we were sent to two different schools to teach this vocational electro technique.

[Assistant] Vocational electro technique?

[User] Well, what it means is that it would, ideally would qualify the person to be an electrician to install wiring, you know, like in a home or building, that sort of thing. All electrical equipment.

[Assistant] Training people for a trade.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so you were both doing the same thing, but in different schools?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, what it means is that it would, ideally would qualify the person to be an electrician to install wiring, you know, like in a home or building, that sort of thing. All electrical equipment.

[Assistant] Training people for a trade.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so you were both doing the same thing, but in different schools?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you room together?