[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, you know, a bottle of water. Well, what do you need if you have a bottle of water? You need a bottle for urine, right? [Laughter] And, you know, some food and procedures and just lots of things.

[Assistant] Just to prepare for the long day ahead.

[User] Yes, which wasn’t supposed to be a long day, but it certainly turned out to be.

[Assistant] As you got into it, did you just kept seeing the complexities of it and more and more things that needed to be addressed that hadn’t been thought of before?

[User] Yes. You know, basically, down at the Cape, there was a lot of testing that had to take place, and that was all done under the umbrella of the tiles, and they had a lot of problems with the tiles, but just, you know, setting up. Well, what does a launch count look like, you know? And I was the crew participant on that. You know, what should the astronauts do when they get down to the Cape?\n\n You know, and there was another gentleman by the name of Rick Nagano [phonetic] and myself sat down and talked about that for a couple of days and came up with a basic structure of, well, they’re probably going to want to fly the Shuttle training aircraft. Well, we probably should have an alternate day that they can fly the Shuttle training aircraft. So that says they’ve got to come down a couple of days ahead of time. They’re going to want weather briefings about the weather. You know, they’re going to want briefings on the condition of the count and the condition of the Shuttle and the conditions of the payloads, and, you know, etc., etc.\n\n So there were lots of things like that to be laid out and gotten ready for the first Shuttle’s flight.

[Assistant] So were you basically given charge of these activities, or were you simply a crew participant in all these activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Usually, I was a crew participant in one of the Cape activities. They’d be coming up and doing a new test, and a lot of the guys at the Cape knew—I mean, they could tell you down to a thousandth of an inch what this piece of machinery looked like, but a lot of them didn’t know what it did. When you conduct a test, you’re very interested in making sure that you test it in the operational mode in which it’s going to be used.

[Assistant] So you kind of help put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

[User] Yes, I typically had—well, started out with a couple, and then we got up to, like, four or five guys, four or five astronauts that were working for me that were down there helping all around the Cape.

[Assistant] Lots of work to do before this new system goes into space.

[User] Oh yes, yes.

[Assistant] So did you watch the launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I typically had—well, started out with a couple, and then we got up to, like, four or five guys, four or five astronauts that were working for me that were down there helping all around the Cape.

[Assistant] Lots of work to do before this new system goes into space.

[User] Oh yes, yes.

[Assistant] So did you watch the launch?

[User] Oh yes, tears rolled down my eyes.

[Assistant] I bet that was exciting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, yes.

[Assistant] So did you watch the launch?

[User] Oh yes, tears rolled down my eyes.

[Assistant] I bet that was exciting.

[User] It was. It was.

[Assistant] When did you find out that you were going to be a pilot on the STS-6?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, tears rolled down my eyes.

[Assistant] I bet that was exciting.

[User] It was. It was.

[Assistant] When did you find out that you were going to be a pilot on the STS-6?

[User] Oh, I don’t remember the date. Either shortly after or maybe even before I came back from the Cape. I don’t remember exactly.

[Assistant] I’m sure you were excited when you finally—you’d been with NASA for—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was. It was.

[Assistant] When did you find out that you were going to be a pilot on the STS-6?

[User] Oh, I don’t remember the date. Either shortly after or maybe even before I came back from the Cape. I don’t remember exactly.

[Assistant] I’m sure you were excited when you finally—you’d been with NASA for—

[User] Forever, yes.

[Assistant] About ten years, I think, when—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I don’t remember the date. Either shortly after or maybe even before I came back from the Cape. I don’t remember exactly.

[Assistant] I’m sure you were excited when you finally—you’d been with NASA for—

[User] Forever, yes.

[Assistant] About ten years, I think, when—

[User] More than that, yes. [Bergen laughs] There was times I felt that I was a cosine wave in a sine-wave world.

[Assistant] Was that because of the class you were in, with the astronauts that were in, that you were so low on the totem pole?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Forever, yes.

[Assistant] About ten years, I think, when—

[User] More than that, yes. [Bergen laughs] There was times I felt that I was a cosine wave in a sine-wave world.

[Assistant] Was that because of the class you were in, with the astronauts that were in, that you were so low on the totem pole?

[User] Well, no. I mean, the MOL guys got here, and the Apollo Program and the Skylab Program both just started to ramp down very quickly. NASA didn’t fund them, and so they ramped down. And then the Shuttle Program was supposed to be ready much sooner than it was, and it took a lot longer to finally get into development and then to actually develop, and so it just took a long time. But there wasn’t much fly—I mean, the Apollo-Soyuz was the only flight between Skylab and the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] But you were patient and waited out till you got there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] More than that, yes. [Bergen laughs] There was times I felt that I was a cosine wave in a sine-wave world.

[Assistant] Was that because of the class you were in, with the astronauts that were in, that you were so low on the totem pole?

[User] Well, no. I mean, the MOL guys got here, and the Apollo Program and the Skylab Program both just started to ramp down very quickly. NASA didn’t fund them, and so they ramped down. And then the Shuttle Program was supposed to be ready much sooner than it was, and it took a lot longer to finally get into development and then to actually develop, and so it just took a long time. But there wasn’t much fly—I mean, the Apollo-Soyuz was the only flight between Skylab and the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] But you were patient and waited out till you got there.

[User] We had interesting things to do. You know, it wasn’t a drudgery job. There were things like SMEAT or working with the Russians or the testing of the Shuttle. Yes, there were interesting things to do.

[Assistant] So you’re finally put on a crew. How did this change what you did? You started preparing for your mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no. I mean, the MOL guys got here, and the Apollo Program and the Skylab Program both just started to ramp down very quickly. NASA didn’t fund them, and so they ramped down. And then the Shuttle Program was supposed to be ready much sooner than it was, and it took a lot longer to finally get into development and then to actually develop, and so it just took a long time. But there wasn’t much fly—I mean, the Apollo-Soyuz was the only flight between Skylab and the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] But you were patient and waited out till you got there.

[User] We had interesting things to do. You know, it wasn’t a drudgery job. There were things like SMEAT or working with the Russians or the testing of the Shuttle. Yes, there were interesting things to do.

[Assistant] So you’re finally put on a crew. How did this change what you did? You started preparing for your mission.

[User] It changes your outlook a lot. You know, you’ve got to do it. And so it just changes the way you look at things. It’s not some thing out there in the mist; it’s up close and personal. So I think, you know, there’s a lot to be learned for a space flight, and it doesn’t seem like there’s ever enough time. You feel you want to learn it all, and it gives you a lot of incentive to work hard and try to learn as much as you can and get things as squared away as you can.

[Assistant] Tell us what a pilot does on a Shuttle mission as opposed to some other member of the crew. I mean, obviously, you fly the Shuttle.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had interesting things to do. You know, it wasn’t a drudgery job. There were things like SMEAT or working with the Russians or the testing of the Shuttle. Yes, there were interesting things to do.

[Assistant] So you’re finally put on a crew. How did this change what you did? You started preparing for your mission.

[User] It changes your outlook a lot. You know, you’ve got to do it. And so it just changes the way you look at things. It’s not some thing out there in the mist; it’s up close and personal. So I think, you know, there’s a lot to be learned for a space flight, and it doesn’t seem like there’s ever enough time. You feel you want to learn it all, and it gives you a lot of incentive to work hard and try to learn as much as you can and get things as squared away as you can.

[Assistant] Tell us what a pilot does on a Shuttle mission as opposed to some other member of the crew. I mean, obviously, you fly the Shuttle.

[User] Okay. Well, you fly it a little, but mainly you’re a systems operator. So you’ve got the reaction control system and the engine system and the electrical system and all those systems that have to be operated to keep the Shuttle going correctly. And then if you’re doing something such as a rendezvous, you’re typically an assistant helping to get that accomplished.\n\n And then there is some flying, mainly on orbit. There’s, of course, usually no flying going into space. There’s a little bit on orbit. And usually the commander’s the one that actually lands the airplane.\n\n And things like on my first flight, it was the first time people had gone EVA [Extra Vehicular Activity], and so I had the responsibility of putting Story [F. Story Musgrave] and Don [Donald H. Peterson] into their suits.

[Assistant] Even though this was the STS-6, you had a lot of firsts on this mission: the first EVA, the first-time Challenger.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It changes your outlook a lot. You know, you’ve got to do it. And so it just changes the way you look at things. It’s not some thing out there in the mist; it’s up close and personal. So I think, you know, there’s a lot to be learned for a space flight, and it doesn’t seem like there’s ever enough time. You feel you want to learn it all, and it gives you a lot of incentive to work hard and try to learn as much as you can and get things as squared away as you can.

[Assistant] Tell us what a pilot does on a Shuttle mission as opposed to some other member of the crew. I mean, obviously, you fly the Shuttle.

[User] Okay. Well, you fly it a little, but mainly you’re a systems operator. So you’ve got the reaction control system and the engine system and the electrical system and all those systems that have to be operated to keep the Shuttle going correctly. And then if you’re doing something such as a rendezvous, you’re typically an assistant helping to get that accomplished.\n\n And then there is some flying, mainly on orbit. There’s, of course, usually no flying going into space. There’s a little bit on orbit. And usually the commander’s the one that actually lands the airplane.\n\n And things like on my first flight, it was the first time people had gone EVA [Extra Vehicular Activity], and so I had the responsibility of putting Story [F. Story Musgrave] and Don [Donald H. Peterson] into their suits.

[Assistant] Even though this was the STS-6, you had a lot of firsts on this mission: the first EVA, the first-time Challenger.

[User] Sure, first flight of Challenger. First lightweight tank. Okay, we launched the big first satellite, the TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite-1]. Yes, sure.

[Assistant] A lot of firsts. What was it like when you watched the first EVA of the Shuttle Program? Did you have apprehensions about this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure, first flight of Challenger. First lightweight tank. Okay, we launched the big first satellite, the TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite-1]. Yes, sure.

[Assistant] A lot of firsts. What was it like when you watched the first EVA of the Shuttle Program? Did you have apprehensions about this?

[User] No, I don’t think so. You know, everything had gone well. Both Story and Don were well trained. I think we all, you know—they looked forward to it. They came back exhilarated after they came back.\n\n My responsibility was getting them into the suits, which is not a small responsibility. I mean, you’re putting them into their own little spacesuit or spacecraft. You know, it provides power and atmosphere and communications and meteoroid protection. It does everything. So it’s kind of like launching a small satellite, except it’s got a man in it.\n\n But that went well. It was interesting to take photographs of them out there in the payload bay. It looks different when you’re up in space and have somebody, one of your friends floating around back there.

[Assistant] You said you were responsible for putting them into their spacesuit. Did you discover any problems with that? I mean, you practiced on the ground.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] But it’s probably different in space.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don’t think so. You know, everything had gone well. Both Story and Don were well trained. I think we all, you know—they looked forward to it. They came back exhilarated after they came back.\n\n My responsibility was getting them into the suits, which is not a small responsibility. I mean, you’re putting them into their own little spacesuit or spacecraft. You know, it provides power and atmosphere and communications and meteoroid protection. It does everything. So it’s kind of like launching a small satellite, except it’s got a man in it.\n\n But that went well. It was interesting to take photographs of them out there in the payload bay. It looks different when you’re up in space and have somebody, one of your friends floating around back there.

[Assistant] You said you were responsible for putting them into their spacesuit. Did you discover any problems with that? I mean, you practiced on the ground.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] But it’s probably different in space.

[User] A little. Sure, but it went well.

[Assistant] Since this was the first flight of Challenger, were there extra things that you had to do during this mission to check out the spacecraft or anything of that nature?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] But it’s probably different in space.

[User] A little. Sure, but it went well.

[Assistant] Since this was the first flight of Challenger, were there extra things that you had to do during this mission to check out the spacecraft or anything of that nature?

[User] Yes, there were a few small things, nothing of any great magnitude. You know, it was also the first flight of the HUD, the heads-up display, which I had on my side. And then there were little experiments and things that we had to check out the spacecraft.

[Assistant] My research show that there was some kind of problem with the guidance computer. Do you remember anything about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A little. Sure, but it went well.

[Assistant] Since this was the first flight of Challenger, were there extra things that you had to do during this mission to check out the spacecraft or anything of that nature?

[User] Yes, there were a few small things, nothing of any great magnitude. You know, it was also the first flight of the HUD, the heads-up display, which I had on my side. And then there were little experiments and things that we had to check out the spacecraft.

[Assistant] My research show that there was some kind of problem with the guidance computer. Do you remember anything about that?

[User] Oh sure, yes.

[Assistant] What was that all about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there were a few small things, nothing of any great magnitude. You know, it was also the first flight of the HUD, the heads-up display, which I had on my side. And then there were little experiments and things that we had to check out the spacecraft.

[Assistant] My research show that there was some kind of problem with the guidance computer. Do you remember anything about that?

[User] Oh sure, yes.

[Assistant] What was that all about?

[User] It failed, but we were on orbit, and the shuttle is—the Shuttle, unlike the Station on orbit, is very benign. It doesn’t take computers to keep it running. So it failed, and we were able to go through the whole procedure and bring it back up, change it to basically another position. When you fly the Shuttle, you have four computers and a fifth which is a backup, and those four computers have what are called strings, so each computer has different things that are hooked to it that it commands, and some of those strings are more important to it than others, so we took this computer and put it on one of the less important strings.

[Assistant] But you got everything back up and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh sure, yes.

[Assistant] What was that all about?

[User] It failed, but we were on orbit, and the shuttle is—the Shuttle, unlike the Station on orbit, is very benign. It doesn’t take computers to keep it running. So it failed, and we were able to go through the whole procedure and bring it back up, change it to basically another position. When you fly the Shuttle, you have four computers and a fifth which is a backup, and those four computers have what are called strings, so each computer has different things that are hooked to it that it commands, and some of those strings are more important to it than others, so we took this computer and put it on one of the less important strings.

[Assistant] But you got everything back up and—

[User] Everything was back and working, yes.

[Assistant] That had to give you confidence in the procedures that had been developed and making sure everything was going to run properly.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It failed, but we were on orbit, and the shuttle is—the Shuttle, unlike the Station on orbit, is very benign. It doesn’t take computers to keep it running. So it failed, and we were able to go through the whole procedure and bring it back up, change it to basically another position. When you fly the Shuttle, you have four computers and a fifth which is a backup, and those four computers have what are called strings, so each computer has different things that are hooked to it that it commands, and some of those strings are more important to it than others, so we took this computer and put it on one of the less important strings.

[Assistant] But you got everything back up and—

[User] Everything was back and working, yes.

[Assistant] That had to give you confidence in the procedures that had been developed and making sure everything was going to run properly.

[User] Yes, well, we had been through those procedures, you know, of, maybe not exactly that, but certainly something very similar before.

[Assistant] Tell us about your landing on that mission. It looks like that that was where the lakebed had been flooded.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everything was back and working, yes.

[Assistant] That had to give you confidence in the procedures that had been developed and making sure everything was going to run properly.

[User] Yes, well, we had been through those procedures, you know, of, maybe not exactly that, but certainly something very similar before.

[Assistant] Tell us about your landing on that mission. It looks like that that was where the lakebed had been flooded.

[User] Yes, so we landed on Runway 2-2 at Edwards. You know, it’s a big runway. There wasn’t anything that was really surprising about it. We just landed on the solid surface, or on the concrete runway, rather than landing on the lakebed. If the lakebed is dry, it gives you a little more latitude. You know, it’s got very large runways, but, luckily, on this flight, nothing was wrong, so we didn’t have to take that extra margin in any way. Landing on the concrete was just fine.

[Assistant] You also mentioned that you had deployed the first large satellite. Did you have any particular responsibilities in that deployment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, well, we had been through those procedures, you know, of, maybe not exactly that, but certainly something very similar before.

[Assistant] Tell us about your landing on that mission. It looks like that that was where the lakebed had been flooded.

[User] Yes, so we landed on Runway 2-2 at Edwards. You know, it’s a big runway. There wasn’t anything that was really surprising about it. We just landed on the solid surface, or on the concrete runway, rather than landing on the lakebed. If the lakebed is dry, it gives you a little more latitude. You know, it’s got very large runways, but, luckily, on this flight, nothing was wrong, so we didn’t have to take that extra margin in any way. Landing on the concrete was just fine.

[Assistant] You also mentioned that you had deployed the first large satellite. Did you have any particular responsibilities in that deployment?

[User] Yes, basically I was responsible for the attitude of the Shuttle, making sure it maneuvered to the right positions and keeping track of all the systems again.

[Assistant] Was there anything unusual that happened or anything new that you learned that you weren’t necessarily—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, so we landed on Runway 2-2 at Edwards. You know, it’s a big runway. There wasn’t anything that was really surprising about it. We just landed on the solid surface, or on the concrete runway, rather than landing on the lakebed. If the lakebed is dry, it gives you a little more latitude. You know, it’s got very large runways, but, luckily, on this flight, nothing was wrong, so we didn’t have to take that extra margin in any way. Landing on the concrete was just fine.

[Assistant] You also mentioned that you had deployed the first large satellite. Did you have any particular responsibilities in that deployment?

[User] Yes, basically I was responsible for the attitude of the Shuttle, making sure it maneuvered to the right positions and keeping track of all the systems again.

[Assistant] Was there anything unusual that happened or anything new that you learned that you weren’t necessarily—

[User] I learned how big it was when it came out, you know. [Bergen laughs] I was up in the front in the pilot seat and the two guys were back there, and, you know, both of them said something like, “Oh, my God,” when this big, you know, big satellite came out. It’s ejected so that it comes kind of over the cockpit.

[Assistant] And they had some problems with that satellite, but it wasn’t anything that you were responsible for.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, basically I was responsible for the attitude of the Shuttle, making sure it maneuvered to the right positions and keeping track of all the systems again.

[Assistant] Was there anything unusual that happened or anything new that you learned that you weren’t necessarily—

[User] I learned how big it was when it came out, you know. [Bergen laughs] I was up in the front in the pilot seat and the two guys were back there, and, you know, both of them said something like, “Oh, my God,” when this big, you know, big satellite came out. It’s ejected so that it comes kind of over the cockpit.

[Assistant] And they had some problems with that satellite, but it wasn’t anything that you were responsible for.

[User] No, no. And, luckily, they had planned to use the satellite for commercial purposes as well as NASA, and it was decided not to do that, but they didn’t make that decision in time to take off some of the extra fuel that was required for using the satellite commercially, and so that fuel was available, and, luckily, that was what saved the satellite later. They were able to use that fuel to get in the right orbit.

[Assistant] Well, that’s good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I learned how big it was when it came out, you know. [Bergen laughs] I was up in the front in the pilot seat and the two guys were back there, and, you know, both of them said something like, “Oh, my God,” when this big, you know, big satellite came out. It’s ejected so that it comes kind of over the cockpit.

[Assistant] And they had some problems with that satellite, but it wasn’t anything that you were responsible for.

[User] No, no. And, luckily, they had planned to use the satellite for commercial purposes as well as NASA, and it was decided not to do that, but they didn’t make that decision in time to take off some of the extra fuel that was required for using the satellite commercially, and so that fuel was available, and, luckily, that was what saved the satellite later. They were able to use that fuel to get in the right orbit.

[Assistant] Well, that’s good.

[User] Yes. Oh yes.

[Assistant] Sometimes things that appear negative initially turn out for the positive, and that’s always good.\n\n Is there anything else about that mission that you want to share that we might not have covered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. And, luckily, they had planned to use the satellite for commercial purposes as well as NASA, and it was decided not to do that, but they didn’t make that decision in time to take off some of the extra fuel that was required for using the satellite commercially, and so that fuel was available, and, luckily, that was what saved the satellite later. They were able to use that fuel to get in the right orbit.

[Assistant] Well, that’s good.

[User] Yes. Oh yes.

[Assistant] Sometimes things that appear negative initially turn out for the positive, and that’s always good.\n\n Is there anything else about that mission that you want to share that we might not have covered?

[User] Oh, you know, space flight’s exciting. Especially your first flight is always exciting. You never know quite what to expect. People tell you the stories about what it’s like, but it’s hard to really appreciate it till you’ve been there.\n\n So, the launch is quick and dynamic. There’s a tremendous power learned, you know, on orbit looking back on the Earth. I came back and it was decided that I would investigate ways to make my Earth observations better, and so I had studied for my next missions to be able to do that.\n\n Just learned about the Shuttle, of course, and about the landing. I mean, when you come back into the atmosphere, things like—during the dark time of your approach, what happens is that the plasma sheath around the Shuttle will recombine over the top, and there’s this big tongue of flame that’s over the top of the Shuttle following you down, and just lots of other things like that.

[Assistant] You said after you came back you decided to study to make your Earth observations, improve your Earth observations. Was that something you decided to do personally, or why did you make that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Oh yes.

[Assistant] Sometimes things that appear negative initially turn out for the positive, and that’s always good.\n\n Is there anything else about that mission that you want to share that we might not have covered?

[User] Oh, you know, space flight’s exciting. Especially your first flight is always exciting. You never know quite what to expect. People tell you the stories about what it’s like, but it’s hard to really appreciate it till you’ve been there.\n\n So, the launch is quick and dynamic. There’s a tremendous power learned, you know, on orbit looking back on the Earth. I came back and it was decided that I would investigate ways to make my Earth observations better, and so I had studied for my next missions to be able to do that.\n\n Just learned about the Shuttle, of course, and about the landing. I mean, when you come back into the atmosphere, things like—during the dark time of your approach, what happens is that the plasma sheath around the Shuttle will recombine over the top, and there’s this big tongue of flame that’s over the top of the Shuttle following you down, and just lots of other things like that.

[Assistant] You said after you came back you decided to study to make your Earth observations, improve your Earth observations. Was that something you decided to do personally, or why did you make that decision?

[User] Oh, I didn’t think that we—certainly, I didn’t have it all pulled together as to how this would all look, and so I just kind of pulled together myself thoughts and ways to look at the Earth, and, afterwards, I gave some of the newer astronauts lectures on that. But once you’ve been there, you think, “Well, hmm, I should have thought of this in a different way,” and once you do, it makes it easier.

[Assistant] Can you give us some example of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I didn’t think that we—certainly, I didn’t have it all pulled together as to how this would all look, and so I just kind of pulled together myself thoughts and ways to look at the Earth, and, afterwards, I gave some of the newer astronauts lectures on that. But once you’ve been there, you think, “Well, hmm, I should have thought of this in a different way,” and once you do, it makes it easier.

[Assistant] Can you give us some example of that?

[User] You’ve seen the charts with the white lines on it, like that, that display the orbits?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I don’t like to think of that as where you’re going to be over the ground. I like to think of an orbit in space and the earth underneath it rotating. Okay? And so now, you know, once a day, the Earth, like the landing site, comes under that plain of the orbit. Or if you think about the sun, if you think of, what is the lighting like, when you look at the chart with these things doing that, the orbits looking like that, it’s hard to figure out what the lighting is.\n\n If you think about, say, if you’re the sun and here’s my orbit, okay, it’s easy to see there that this side of the orbit is going to be illuminated, and this side of the orbit’s going to be dark. Okay. And that if I’m in an orbit going this way, each descending note is going to be in the daytime, and each ascending note is going to be at night. And it’s just things like that, you know, that I thought made it easier for me on later flights.

[Assistant] Just to kind of change your perspective on what you’re doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’ve seen the charts with the white lines on it, like that, that display the orbits?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I don’t like to think of that as where you’re going to be over the ground. I like to think of an orbit in space and the earth underneath it rotating. Okay? And so now, you know, once a day, the Earth, like the landing site, comes under that plain of the orbit. Or if you think about the sun, if you think of, what is the lighting like, when you look at the chart with these things doing that, the orbits looking like that, it’s hard to figure out what the lighting is.\n\n If you think about, say, if you’re the sun and here’s my orbit, okay, it’s easy to see there that this side of the orbit is going to be illuminated, and this side of the orbit’s going to be dark. Okay. And that if I’m in an orbit going this way, each descending note is going to be in the daytime, and each ascending note is going to be at night. And it’s just things like that, you know, that I thought made it easier for me on later flights.

[Assistant] Just to kind of change your perspective on what you’re doing.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] That makes a lot of sense.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t like to think of that as where you’re going to be over the ground. I like to think of an orbit in space and the earth underneath it rotating. Okay? And so now, you know, once a day, the Earth, like the landing site, comes under that plain of the orbit. Or if you think about the sun, if you think of, what is the lighting like, when you look at the chart with these things doing that, the orbits looking like that, it’s hard to figure out what the lighting is.\n\n If you think about, say, if you’re the sun and here’s my orbit, okay, it’s easy to see there that this side of the orbit is going to be illuminated, and this side of the orbit’s going to be dark. Okay. And that if I’m in an orbit going this way, each descending note is going to be in the daytime, and each ascending note is going to be at night. And it’s just things like that, you know, that I thought made it easier for me on later flights.

[Assistant] Just to kind of change your perspective on what you’re doing.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] That makes a lot of sense.

[User] Like if you’re trying to figure out, “Well, if I’m in this orbit, where’s the sun going to be?” Well, if I look at the orbits on the chart, it’s usually pretty hard to figure that out. If I think of it in this sense, it’s much easier to figure out where the sun is going to be. Is there going to be —you glint off the ocean is going to blind me? Well, depends on where the sun’s going to be.

[Assistant] So did you try to work with some of the geologists and oceanographers and things like that to help you with your Earth observation improvements that you’d hoped to make?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] That makes a lot of sense.

[User] Like if you’re trying to figure out, “Well, if I’m in this orbit, where’s the sun going to be?” Well, if I look at the orbits on the chart, it’s usually pretty hard to figure that out. If I think of it in this sense, it’s much easier to figure out where the sun is going to be. Is there going to be —you glint off the ocean is going to blind me? Well, depends on where the sun’s going to be.

[Assistant] So did you try to work with some of the geologists and oceanographers and things like that to help you with your Earth observation improvements that you’d hoped to make?

[User] Well, most of the geologists are thinking about it from a ground perspective. Okay? And, you know, they’re not necessarily thinking about things such as, “Okay, when I’m coming up to this thing, on this orbit, what’s the approach path going to be, and what’s maybe something before that’s easily identified that I can use as an initial point to help me find my target?” Most of them didn’t have that perspective on it, and so those were the kinds of things that I try to think of myself.

[Assistant] I’m sure that was beneficial to other astronauts to come later to have that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like if you’re trying to figure out, “Well, if I’m in this orbit, where’s the sun going to be?” Well, if I look at the orbits on the chart, it’s usually pretty hard to figure that out. If I think of it in this sense, it’s much easier to figure out where the sun is going to be. Is there going to be —you glint off the ocean is going to blind me? Well, depends on where the sun’s going to be.

[Assistant] So did you try to work with some of the geologists and oceanographers and things like that to help you with your Earth observation improvements that you’d hoped to make?

[User] Well, most of the geologists are thinking about it from a ground perspective. Okay? And, you know, they’re not necessarily thinking about things such as, “Okay, when I’m coming up to this thing, on this orbit, what’s the approach path going to be, and what’s maybe something before that’s easily identified that I can use as an initial point to help me find my target?” Most of them didn’t have that perspective on it, and so those were the kinds of things that I try to think of myself.

[Assistant] I’m sure that was beneficial to other astronauts to come later to have that.

[User] Like I said, I have given a couple of courses. It’s not a big thing.

[Assistant] Well, I think it’s a very interesting, interesting perspective of things that you don’t normally think about.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, most of the geologists are thinking about it from a ground perspective. Okay? And, you know, they’re not necessarily thinking about things such as, “Okay, when I’m coming up to this thing, on this orbit, what’s the approach path going to be, and what’s maybe something before that’s easily identified that I can use as an initial point to help me find my target?” Most of them didn’t have that perspective on it, and so those were the kinds of things that I try to think of myself.

[Assistant] I’m sure that was beneficial to other astronauts to come later to have that.

[User] Like I said, I have given a couple of courses. It’s not a big thing.

[Assistant] Well, I think it’s a very interesting, interesting perspective of things that you don’t normally think about.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] I think that’s great.\n\n So your next mission was STS-51E, which had changed names and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like I said, I have given a couple of courses. It’s not a big thing.

[Assistant] Well, I think it’s a very interesting, interesting perspective of things that you don’t normally think about.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] I think that’s great.\n\n So your next mission was STS-51E, which had changed names and—

[User] Mary Lee used to be the lady that arranged the patches, and along the top of her office she had different plaques with all the different patches, and then you got to a corner, and there were four of them, which were all for that mission or its derivatives. [Bergen laughs] Okay? As a matter of fact, I’ve got a plaque which has the four patches on it. I could show them to you, but it would be hard to tell the difference, but little things always changed.

[Assistant] Can you take us through that transition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It came together, yes.

[Assistant] It shows also how adaptable humans can be in space.

[User] Oh yes, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] That’s great.\n\n So did you have Senator Garn on that mission?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So he did fly that mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, yes. Yes.

[Assistant] That’s great.\n\n So did you have Senator Garn on that mission?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So he did fly that mission.

[User] Jake was on that flight, and he was also going to be on the flight before. Yes.\n\n George [W. S.] Abbey said to me one day, he said, “What sort of training program would you have if you had a new passenger that was only going to have eight or twelve weeks?”\n\n I said, “Why are you asking me that question?” [Laughter]\n\n He said, “Because you’ve got a new passenger, and you’ve only got—,” I don’t know, ten or twelve weeks to flight.\n\n So, basically, what I had done was there was Mike [Michael J.] Smith, who was later killed in the Challenger accident [51-L], had been brought up to speed, because they thought that one of the astronauts, Loren [J.] Shriver, might have been exposed to measles, I think it was. And so they had given him extra training so to make him ready, and then he didn’t have a flight. So he took Jake under his arm and got him ready so that it was easy to integrate him into the crew.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting to have a senator.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So he did fly that mission.

[User] Jake was on that flight, and he was also going to be on the flight before. Yes.\n\n George [W. S.] Abbey said to me one day, he said, “What sort of training program would you have if you had a new passenger that was only going to have eight or twelve weeks?”\n\n I said, “Why are you asking me that question?” [Laughter]\n\n He said, “Because you’ve got a new passenger, and you’ve only got—,” I don’t know, ten or twelve weeks to flight.\n\n So, basically, what I had done was there was Mike [Michael J.] Smith, who was later killed in the Challenger accident [51-L], had been brought up to speed, because they thought that one of the astronauts, Loren [J.] Shriver, might have been exposed to measles, I think it was. And so they had given him extra training so to make him ready, and then he didn’t have a flight. So he took Jake under his arm and got him ready so that it was easy to integrate him into the crew.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting to have a senator.

[User] Jake was a great person. He had more flying time than I did. He knew what it was to be a crew member. You know, I’d call him up and I’d say, “Jake, we need you down here.”\n\n And he’s say, “Yes, sir,” and he’d be down the next day for the sim [simulation].\n\n So, for a mission specialist, he was a great mission specialist. His only problem was that he got very sick on orbit.

[Assistant] Did you ever get sick on orbit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jake was on that flight, and he was also going to be on the flight before. Yes.\n\n George [W. S.] Abbey said to me one day, he said, “What sort of training program would you have if you had a new passenger that was only going to have eight or twelve weeks?”\n\n I said, “Why are you asking me that question?” [Laughter]\n\n He said, “Because you’ve got a new passenger, and you’ve only got—,” I don’t know, ten or twelve weeks to flight.\n\n So, basically, what I had done was there was Mike [Michael J.] Smith, who was later killed in the Challenger accident [51-L], had been brought up to speed, because they thought that one of the astronauts, Loren [J.] Shriver, might have been exposed to measles, I think it was. And so they had given him extra training so to make him ready, and then he didn’t have a flight. So he took Jake under his arm and got him ready so that it was easy to integrate him into the crew.

[Assistant] It must have been interesting to have a senator.

[User] Jake was a great person. He had more flying time than I did. He knew what it was to be a crew member. You know, I’d call him up and I’d say, “Jake, we need you down here.”\n\n And he’s say, “Yes, sir,” and he’d be down the next day for the sim [simulation].\n\n So, for a mission specialist, he was a great mission specialist. His only problem was that he got very sick on orbit.

[Assistant] Did you ever get sick on orbit?

[User] Yes, but, you know, Jake got really sick on orbit.

[Assistant] [Laughs] That’s unfortunate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jake was a great person. He had more flying time than I did. He knew what it was to be a crew member. You know, I’d call him up and I’d say, “Jake, we need you down here.”\n\n And he’s say, “Yes, sir,” and he’d be down the next day for the sim [simulation].\n\n So, for a mission specialist, he was a great mission specialist. His only problem was that he got very sick on orbit.

[Assistant] Did you ever get sick on orbit?

[User] Yes, but, you know, Jake got really sick on orbit.

[Assistant] [Laughs] That’s unfortunate.

[User] He was doing some of these medical experiments, and they find that one of the things that happens is that on orbit, if you get sick, your alimentary canal, your digestive system, seems to close down. So what they had were little microphones on a belt that Jake had strapped to him to see if they could detect the bowel sounds. So the story is—and I haven’t heard it myself—they had me on the microphone saying to Jake, “Jake, you’ve got to get upstairs and let them see you on TV. Otherwise, they’ll think you died and I threw you overboard.” [Laughter]\n\n But he was a good sport, and, like I said, he knew what it was to be a crew member, and, of course, he was just an interesting person, having been in the Senate, you know, a different kind of person than we normally rub elbows with over there at NASA.

[Assistant] Is there anything else about this mission that maybe I didn’t touch on that you’d like to discuss? You were commander for this one, so you actually landed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but, you know, Jake got really sick on orbit.

[Assistant] [Laughs] That’s unfortunate.

[User] He was doing some of these medical experiments, and they find that one of the things that happens is that on orbit, if you get sick, your alimentary canal, your digestive system, seems to close down. So what they had were little microphones on a belt that Jake had strapped to him to see if they could detect the bowel sounds. So the story is—and I haven’t heard it myself—they had me on the microphone saying to Jake, “Jake, you’ve got to get upstairs and let them see you on TV. Otherwise, they’ll think you died and I threw you overboard.” [Laughter]\n\n But he was a good sport, and, like I said, he knew what it was to be a crew member, and, of course, he was just an interesting person, having been in the Senate, you know, a different kind of person than we normally rub elbows with over there at NASA.

[Assistant] Is there anything else about this mission that maybe I didn’t touch on that you’d like to discuss? You were commander for this one, so you actually landed.

[User] Yes. Yes, during one of those iterations, we were supposed to fly the first auto land. Our motto was, “[Latin phrase], “Look, Ma, no hands.” [Bergen laughs] But that didn’t come to be.\n\n But it was an interesting flight. We became a very close crew after training so long together. As it turned it, we were able to meet all the challenges that that mission presented, which were quite a few.

[Assistant] I imagine since you got to land it, you were probably glad that you actually got to land it and didn’t have to use the auto land.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes, during one of those iterations, we were supposed to fly the first auto land. Our motto was, “[Latin phrase], “Look, Ma, no hands.” [Bergen laughs] But that didn’t come to be.\n\n But it was an interesting flight. We became a very close crew after training so long together. As it turned it, we were able to meet all the challenges that that mission presented, which were quite a few.

[Assistant] I imagine since you got to land it, you were probably glad that you actually got to land it and didn’t have to use the auto land.

[User] Yes, sure. Although the auto land was interesting. People say, “Well, you’re going to have to do auto land, so it’ll be a lot easier.”\n\n Well, at least from my perspective, I had to define kind of a box of performance in which that during the landing if the auto land system got out of, I’d know that I couldn’t take over from and safely make a landing. So it was a monitoring situation, and during the training, the problem was to try and define how to recognize when the auto system was diverging and not let it get so far that I couldn’t take over and make a safe landing. So it required extra landing training on my part.

[Assistant] That makes sense, especially on the first run.

[User] Yes, sure.

[Assistant] Did they eventually test—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, sure. Although the auto land was interesting. People say, “Well, you’re going to have to do auto land, so it’ll be a lot easier.”\n\n Well, at least from my perspective, I had to define kind of a box of performance in which that during the landing if the auto land system got out of, I’d know that I couldn’t take over from and safely make a landing. So it was a monitoring situation, and during the training, the problem was to try and define how to recognize when the auto system was diverging and not let it get so far that I couldn’t take over and make a safe landing. So it required extra landing training on my part.

[Assistant] That makes sense, especially on the first run.

[User] Yes, sure.

[Assistant] Did they eventually test—

[User] No, they have never really done an auto, no. What happened was that we were going to land at Edwards for the auto land, because it was the first landing of auto, and we were going to land on a lakebed. And then that flight was canceled and we went to another, and they decided that that flight should go down to the Cape, and then they didn’t want to do an auto land, the first auto land, at the Cape, and so we didn’t do the auto land.

[Assistant] That was interesting, it sounds like you had a lot of interesting varied training in all that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, sure.

[Assistant] Did they eventually test—

[User] No, they have never really done an auto, no. What happened was that we were going to land at Edwards for the auto land, because it was the first landing of auto, and we were going to land on a lakebed. And then that flight was canceled and we went to another, and they decided that that flight should go down to the Cape, and then they didn’t want to do an auto land, the first auto land, at the Cape, and so we didn’t do the auto land.

[Assistant] That was interesting, it sounds like you had a lot of interesting varied training in all that.

[User] Oh sure, yes. Let’s see. On that one we had the little toys. Carolyn Sumner [phonetic] came to us and said, “Hey, we’d like to have you guys use toys to demonstrate physical principles.”\n\n What they do now is they give the kids—well, they’re on their third or fourth iteration, but they give the kids a bag of toys, let them play with them, and say, “Okay, how would these react in space?” And so then they’d talk about the physics, and then they show pictures of us doing the toys in space.

[Assistant] What toys did you do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they have never really done an auto, no. What happened was that we were going to land at Edwards for the auto land, because it was the first landing of auto, and we were going to land on a lakebed. And then that flight was canceled and we went to another, and they decided that that flight should go down to the Cape, and then they didn’t want to do an auto land, the first auto land, at the Cape, and so we didn’t do the auto land.

[Assistant] That was interesting, it sounds like you had a lot of interesting varied training in all that.

[User] Oh sure, yes. Let’s see. On that one we had the little toys. Carolyn Sumner [phonetic] came to us and said, “Hey, we’d like to have you guys use toys to demonstrate physical principles.”\n\n What they do now is they give the kids—well, they’re on their third or fourth iteration, but they give the kids a bag of toys, let them play with them, and say, “Okay, how would these react in space?” And so then they’d talk about the physics, and then they show pictures of us doing the toys in space.

[Assistant] What toys did you do?

[User] I had the gyroscope. It seems like I had another one. Certainly I had the gyroscope, yes. And we decided, we said—and so NASA public affairs said, “Oh, we can’t have any downlink of this stuff. They’re going to think you guys are playing around in space.” [Bergen laughs]\n\n I said, “It won’t last. Okay.” It lasted about a week. [Laughter] And then they decided, “Oh, we’ve got to get downlink of that.”

[Assistant]
It looks like fun playing with toys in space.

Is there anything else about the mission you wanted to mention before we move on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh sure, yes. Let’s see. On that one we had the little toys. Carolyn Sumner [phonetic] came to us and said, “Hey, we’d like to have you guys use toys to demonstrate physical principles.”\n\n What they do now is they give the kids—well, they’re on their third or fourth iteration, but they give the kids a bag of toys, let them play with them, and say, “Okay, how would these react in space?” And so then they’d talk about the physics, and then they show pictures of us doing the toys in space.

[Assistant] What toys did you do?

[User] I had the gyroscope. It seems like I had another one. Certainly I had the gyroscope, yes. And we decided, we said—and so NASA public affairs said, “Oh, we can’t have any downlink of this stuff. They’re going to think you guys are playing around in space.” [Bergen laughs]\n\n I said, “It won’t last. Okay.” It lasted about a week. [Laughter] And then they decided, “Oh, we’ve got to get downlink of that.”

[Assistant]
It looks like fun playing with toys in space.

Is there anything else about the mission you wanted to mention before we move on?

[User] The crew was—like I said, we spent a lot of time together. We trained for a lot of things.

[Assistant] Who was on that crew with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had the gyroscope. It seems like I had another one. Certainly I had the gyroscope, yes. And we decided, we said—and so NASA public affairs said, “Oh, we can’t have any downlink of this stuff. They’re going to think you guys are playing around in space.” [Bergen laughs]\n\n I said, “It won’t last. Okay.” It lasted about a week. [Laughter] And then they decided, “Oh, we’ve got to get downlink of that.”

[Assistant]
It looks like fun playing with toys in space.

Is there anything else about the mission you wanted to mention before we move on?

[User] The crew was—like I said, we spent a lot of time together. We trained for a lot of things.

[Assistant] Who was on that crew with you?

[User] Don [Donald E.] Williams was my pilot; [M.] Rhea Seddon, let’s see, I guess she was the second woman; Jeff [Jeffery A.] Hoffman; [S. David] Griggs; and then the two payload specialists were Jake Garn and Charlie [Charles D.] Walker.

[Assistant] So you all remained fairly close after that since you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The crew was—like I said, we spent a lot of time together. We trained for a lot of things.

[Assistant] Who was on that crew with you?

[User] Don [Donald E.] Williams was my pilot; [M.] Rhea Seddon, let’s see, I guess she was the second woman; Jeff [Jeffery A.] Hoffman; [S. David] Griggs; and then the two payload specialists were Jake Garn and Charlie [Charles D.] Walker.

[Assistant] So you all remained fairly close after that since you—

[User] Yes, we see each other, you know, etc.

[Assistant] Your next mission was STS-51J, which was a DoD [Department of Defense] mission, so there may not be a whole lot you could tell us about this mission.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the military astronauts are here. They are detailed to NASA. So they’re still military officers while they’re here. They’re just detailed to NASA.

[Assistant] So you didn’t have to make any special—

[User] Nothing, no.

[Assistant] And you had all this, whatever, security clearances and everything.

[User] Well, security clearances are separate from being with NASA, but I had to have lots of them anyhow, going all the way to back to MOL.

[Assistant] Did the training for this mission have the same characteristics of the trainings that you had to have for your previous missions? I mean, now this was your third mission, so—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nothing, no.

[Assistant] And you had all this, whatever, security clearances and everything.

[User] Well, security clearances are separate from being with NASA, but I had to have lots of them anyhow, going all the way to back to MOL.

[Assistant] Did the training for this mission have the same characteristics of the trainings that you had to have for your previous missions? I mean, now this was your third mission, so—

[User] Basically, the only problem with that, the basic problem was that the second mission slipped, so it slipped into the training mission, the training time for the third mission. So the crew had to go kind of train without me to start with, and then I joined them later.

[Assistant] I noticed that it was interesting that you’d spent over ten years at NASA without flying, and then here you were already on your third flight in just a couple of years, so that must have been exciting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, security clearances are separate from being with NASA, but I had to have lots of them anyhow, going all the way to back to MOL.

[Assistant] Did the training for this mission have the same characteristics of the trainings that you had to have for your previous missions? I mean, now this was your third mission, so—

[User] Basically, the only problem with that, the basic problem was that the second mission slipped, so it slipped into the training mission, the training time for the third mission. So the crew had to go kind of train without me to start with, and then I joined them later.

[Assistant] I noticed that it was interesting that you’d spent over ten years at NASA without flying, and then here you were already on your third flight in just a couple of years, so that must have been exciting.

[User] Yes, well, the second and third mission were pretty close, and, of course, we had gotten to the point on flights before the second mission when we could have actually flown the mission. I mean, we had trained right up until that point.

[Assistant] I don’t know much about this mission since it’s classified or was classified. Is there anything that you maybe learned from this mission that was different that you can share with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Like I said, I can’t tell you much about the flight, because it may still be classified.

[Assistant] You mentioned that it being classified made it complicated. Did it make your training for it complicated?

[User] Yes. Somebody might be doing an experiment, and he could be working on the experiment out in the open as long as it was away from NASA, but having the experiment associated with that Shuttle flight was the classified part of it. So I couldn’t call a person, because the commander, if I called them, it would give an indication that that experiment was on that Shuttle flight. It may be a very simple experiment of what sort or another.

[Assistant] So were you able to overcome that by—

[User] Yes, you overcame it. It just was a little bit of an additional burden.

[Assistant] A few months after this mission, the Challenger accident occurred. Looking back on that, what kind of effect do you feel that that had on NASA or JSC specifically, but NASA in general?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, a little. I got wrapped up with the TAL sites, but I did participate a little with the investigation. It was more things that were happening here rather, and these were periphery to the actual investigation of the accident itself.

[Assistant] You received a NASA Exceptional Service Medal for work on getting the Shuttle Program back to flight status. Was this that work that you were talking about that you did?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] What—

[User] So after Challenger, they said, “We’re going to reevaluate the TAL sites. Who’s been to Africa?”\n\n Well, I had been the only guy that been to Africa, so I got sent back. [Laughter] And so we went up and down

[Assistant] You had the qualifications.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] What—

[User] So after Challenger, they said, “We’re going to reevaluate the TAL sites. Who’s been to Africa?”\n\n Well, I had been the only guy that been to Africa, so I got sent back. [Laughter] And so we went up and down

[Assistant] You had the qualifications.

[User] That’s right. So went up and down the west coast of Africa looking from TAL sites, from Banjul up through Morocco, you know, all those sites.

[Assistant] Must have been an interesting experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So after Challenger, they said, “We’re going to reevaluate the TAL sites. Who’s been to Africa?”\n\n Well, I had been the only guy that been to Africa, so I got sent back. [Laughter] And so we went up and down

[Assistant] You had the qualifications.

[User] That’s right. So went up and down the west coast of Africa looking from TAL sites, from Banjul up through Morocco, you know, all those sites.

[Assistant] Must have been an interesting experience.

[User] Oh yes, yes.

[Assistant] What kind of problems did you encounter in doing this work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. So went up and down the west coast of Africa looking from TAL sites, from Banjul up through Morocco, you know, all those sites.

[Assistant] Must have been an interesting experience.

[User] Oh yes, yes.

[Assistant] What kind of problems did you encounter in doing this work?

[User] We were looking for a good runway. Found the one we settled on in Morocco was Ben Guerir, and it was an old U.S. Air Force base that had been closed down, and so it was a nice long runway, but the surface had kind of become cracked because it was asphalt, and the volatiles had basically evaporated, and so they needed to add that stuff. There were other things that needed to be added to all the runways, weather reporting, you know, capabilities to store some things, electronic landing aids, a net at the end of the runway to catch the orbiter if it didn’t stop. So there were a number of challenges there.

[Assistant] After you finished that, is that when you got the position of Assistant for Operations to the Director of Flight Crew Operations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, yes.

[Assistant] What kind of problems did you encounter in doing this work?

[User] We were looking for a good runway. Found the one we settled on in Morocco was Ben Guerir, and it was an old U.S. Air Force base that had been closed down, and so it was a nice long runway, but the surface had kind of become cracked because it was asphalt, and the volatiles had basically evaporated, and so they needed to add that stuff. There were other things that needed to be added to all the runways, weather reporting, you know, capabilities to store some things, electronic landing aids, a net at the end of the runway to catch the orbiter if it didn’t stop. So there were a number of challenges there.

[Assistant] After you finished that, is that when you got the position of Assistant for Operations to the Director of Flight Crew Operations?

[User] Yes. Well, that was kind of in the middle of that. As a matter of fact, from that, I was detailed to the program office to help in the development of the landing sites.

[Assistant] I don’t have much information from the last part of your career with NASA. Is there anything else that you did that was significant that you want to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were looking for a good runway. Found the one we settled on in Morocco was Ben Guerir, and it was an old U.S. Air Force base that had been closed down, and so it was a nice long runway, but the surface had kind of become cracked because it was asphalt, and the volatiles had basically evaporated, and so they needed to add that stuff. There were other things that needed to be added to all the runways, weather reporting, you know, capabilities to store some things, electronic landing aids, a net at the end of the runway to catch the orbiter if it didn’t stop. So there were a number of challenges there.

[Assistant] After you finished that, is that when you got the position of Assistant for Operations to the Director of Flight Crew Operations?

[User] Yes. Well, that was kind of in the middle of that. As a matter of fact, from that, I was detailed to the program office to help in the development of the landing sites.

[Assistant] I don’t have much information from the last part of your career with NASA. Is there anything else that you did that was significant that you want to talk about?

[User] I don’t think so. I mean, I had participated with—oh, there was a gentleman by the name of Thorsen [phonetic], who was in charge of all of the landing sites worldwide, and I helped him try to get the requirements and all the things necessary to get those landing sites up to speed and get the necessary processes in place and decide, for instance—and I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but they were getting a C-130, which is an air force transport, to fly down, which had rescue guys and a medical team on board that would come down to the TAL site and be there in case they landed there, in case they would have any accident, because some of the places that the TAL sites are located have very rudimentary medical capability.

[Assistant] So you had to make contingencies for all the kinds of situations you might entail.\n\n Did you mainly work just in that geographical area or did you concern yourself with other ones around the world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Well, that was kind of in the middle of that. As a matter of fact, from that, I was detailed to the program office to help in the development of the landing sites.

[Assistant] I don’t have much information from the last part of your career with NASA. Is there anything else that you did that was significant that you want to talk about?

[User] I don’t think so. I mean, I had participated with—oh, there was a gentleman by the name of Thorsen [phonetic], who was in charge of all of the landing sites worldwide, and I helped him try to get the requirements and all the things necessary to get those landing sites up to speed and get the necessary processes in place and decide, for instance—and I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but they were getting a C-130, which is an air force transport, to fly down, which had rescue guys and a medical team on board that would come down to the TAL site and be there in case they landed there, in case they would have any accident, because some of the places that the TAL sites are located have very rudimentary medical capability.

[Assistant] So you had to make contingencies for all the kinds of situations you might entail.\n\n Did you mainly work just in that geographical area or did you concern yourself with other ones around the world?

[User] Oh, no, some other ones around the world. We activated Hawaii at the time and Hickam [phonetic], but I never got to go to Hickam.

[Assistant] In 1989 is when you left NASA. Is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so. I mean, I had participated with—oh, there was a gentleman by the name of Thorsen [phonetic], who was in charge of all of the landing sites worldwide, and I helped him try to get the requirements and all the things necessary to get those landing sites up to speed and get the necessary processes in place and decide, for instance—and I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but they were getting a C-130, which is an air force transport, to fly down, which had rescue guys and a medical team on board that would come down to the TAL site and be there in case they landed there, in case they would have any accident, because some of the places that the TAL sites are located have very rudimentary medical capability.

[Assistant] So you had to make contingencies for all the kinds of situations you might entail.\n\n Did you mainly work just in that geographical area or did you concern yourself with other ones around the world?

[User] Oh, no, some other ones around the world. We activated Hawaii at the time and Hickam [phonetic], but I never got to go to Hickam.

[Assistant] In 1989 is when you left NASA. Is that correct?

[User] Yes, the end of ’88, the very beginning of ’89.

[Assistant] What led you to decide to make that decision to leave NASA and go into the private sector?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, some other ones around the world. We activated Hawaii at the time and Hickam [phonetic], but I never got to go to Hickam.

[Assistant] In 1989 is when you left NASA. Is that correct?

[User] Yes, the end of ’88, the very beginning of ’89.

[Assistant] What led you to decide to make that decision to leave NASA and go into the private sector?

[User] I was coming to the end of my air force career and had to do something. So I decided to go into the private sector.

[Assistant] And where’d you go when you—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the end of ’88, the very beginning of ’89.

[Assistant] What led you to decide to make that decision to leave NASA and go into the private sector?

[User] I was coming to the end of my air force career and had to do something. So I decided to go into the private sector.

[Assistant] And where’d you go when you—

[User] I went to a company called Booz-Allen & Hamilton, and they had a couple of contracts here associated with Space Station, and so I was the site manager lead here in Houston.

[Assistant] What kind of contracts were they for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was coming to the end of my air force career and had to do something. So I decided to go into the private sector.

[Assistant] And where’d you go when you—

[User] I went to a company called Booz-Allen & Hamilton, and they had a couple of contracts here associated with Space Station, and so I was the site manager lead here in Houston.

[Assistant] What kind of contracts were they for?

[User] One was for the training systems. It’s now Raytheon that has that contract, but they make the simulators that are required to train the astronauts.\n\n And then another one, there was a company which—they had the integration contract for NASA Headquarters, and they had a group here in Houston, and Booz-Allen was part of that team, and so there were people that I had that were working operations questions. And those are probably the two biggest. Then there was also the contract for the mission control center. We had some people working with the development of that, too.

[Assistant] You mentioned simulators. I wanted to ask you how—I forgot to ask you earlier what your impression of the Shuttle trainer was.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I went to a company called Booz-Allen & Hamilton, and they had a couple of contracts here associated with Space Station, and so I was the site manager lead here in Houston.

[Assistant] What kind of contracts were they for?

[User] One was for the training systems. It’s now Raytheon that has that contract, but they make the simulators that are required to train the astronauts.\n\n And then another one, there was a company which—they had the integration contract for NASA Headquarters, and they had a group here in Houston, and Booz-Allen was part of that team, and so there were people that I had that were working operations questions. And those are probably the two biggest. Then there was also the contract for the mission control center. We had some people working with the development of that, too.

[Assistant] You mentioned simulators. I wanted to ask you how—I forgot to ask you earlier what your impression of the Shuttle trainer was.

[User] Which trainer?

[Assistant] The—what is it, Shuttle aircraft trainer, the one that actually—the airplane that you fly that’s supposed to fly like the Shuttle. How well did you feel that—did that prepare you for actually flying the Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One was for the training systems. It’s now Raytheon that has that contract, but they make the simulators that are required to train the astronauts.\n\n And then another one, there was a company which—they had the integration contract for NASA Headquarters, and they had a group here in Houston, and Booz-Allen was part of that team, and so there were people that I had that were working operations questions. And those are probably the two biggest. Then there was also the contract for the mission control center. We had some people working with the development of that, too.

[Assistant] You mentioned simulators. I wanted to ask you how—I forgot to ask you earlier what your impression of the Shuttle trainer was.

[User] Which trainer?

[Assistant] The—what is it, Shuttle aircraft trainer, the one that actually—the airplane that you fly that’s supposed to fly like the Shuttle. How well did you feel that—did that prepare you for actually flying the Shuttle?

[User] Very well. Very well. I think it was on my second flight. I think it was with Don Williams that we were coming around, getting ready to line up, and I said, “Are we in sim yet? Do I have it?” which are the things that you would say if you’re flying the Shuttle training aircraft.

[Assistant] So it prepared you very well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which trainer?

[Assistant] The—what is it, Shuttle aircraft trainer, the one that actually—the airplane that you fly that’s supposed to fly like the Shuttle. How well did you feel that—did that prepare you for actually flying the Shuttle?

[User] Very well. Very well. I think it was on my second flight. I think it was with Don Williams that we were coming around, getting ready to line up, and I said, “Are we in sim yet? Do I have it?” which are the things that you would say if you’re flying the Shuttle training aircraft.

[Assistant] So it prepared you very well.

[User] Very well, yes.

[Assistant] So after—you’re with Spacehab now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very well. Very well. I think it was on my second flight. I think it was with Don Williams that we were coming around, getting ready to line up, and I said, “Are we in sim yet? Do I have it?” which are the things that you would say if you’re flying the Shuttle training aircraft.

[Assistant] So it prepared you very well.

[User] Very well, yes.

[Assistant] So after—you’re with Spacehab now.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So did you go there from Booz-Allen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very well, yes.

[Assistant] So after—you’re with Spacehab now.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So did you go there from Booz-Allen?

[User] Yes, about two years ago.

[Assistant] And what do you do now at Spacehab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, about two years ago.

[Assistant] And what do you do now at Spacehab?

[User] I am the V.P. [Vice President] for strategic programs. So we’re kind of the think part of the company looking forward. We’re working with NASA. We just put in a proposal, a number of proposals to be working on an altered access to Station task. I don’t know if we’ll get it or not. I imagine that we’ve got a good chance, which would be looking at providing a service to NASA that would transport cargo, process and transport cargo up to Station.\n\n Spacehab is a little bit different, you know. Spacehab looks at things from a commercial perspective. As an example, now they have modules that fly in the Shuttle. They’re owned by Spacehab. They’re maintained by Spacehab. When we get the equipment, we get the things that need to be transported to the Shuttle. We do the analysis on them and the packing of them and that module is then taken and put it into the Shuttle and taken up to the Station. So basically NASA has very little oversight about this whole process. It’s a commercial process.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
If I have my time right, I think it’s about time for Jennifer to—it may be a good time for Jennifer to change her tape.\n\n Jennifer: We have about ten more minutes.

I just kind of have some general looking-back-on-things sort of questions. Maybe let’s look at some of your—you spent your time at NASA as an astronaut, and when you came in, there was this group of astronauts that had been to the Moon. How did you and your comrades from the MOL Program kind of become part of this group of astronauts? How did you interact with them and did you feel welcome by them or was there somewhat of a—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I am the V.P. [Vice President] for strategic programs. So we’re kind of the think part of the company looking forward. We’re working with NASA. We just put in a proposal, a number of proposals to be working on an altered access to Station task. I don’t know if we’ll get it or not. I imagine that we’ve got a good chance, which would be looking at providing a service to NASA that would transport cargo, process and transport cargo up to Station.\n\n Spacehab is a little bit different, you know. Spacehab looks at things from a commercial perspective. As an example, now they have modules that fly in the Shuttle. They’re owned by Spacehab. They’re maintained by Spacehab. When we get the equipment, we get the things that need to be transported to the Shuttle. We do the analysis on them and the packing of them and that module is then taken and put it into the Shuttle and taken up to the Station. So basically NASA has very little oversight about this whole process. It’s a commercial process.

[Assistant] That’s interesting.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
If I have my time right, I think it’s about time for Jennifer to—it may be a good time for Jennifer to change her tape.\n\n Jennifer: We have about ten more minutes.

I just kind of have some general looking-back-on-things sort of questions. Maybe let’s look at some of your—you spent your time at NASA as an astronaut, and when you came in, there was this group of astronauts that had been to the Moon. How did you and your comrades from the MOL Program kind of become part of this group of astronauts? How did you interact with them and did you feel welcome by them or was there somewhat of a—

[User] Oh, no, I thought they treated us fine. We weren’t going to take any of their slots to go to the Moon. We were there, and they could have us help them. We weren’t certainly any threat or any competition at the time.

[Assistant] So you were just a helpful resource to them by this time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
If I have my time right, I think it’s about time for Jennifer to—it may be a good time for Jennifer to change her tape.\n\n Jennifer: We have about ten more minutes.

I just kind of have some general looking-back-on-things sort of questions. Maybe let’s look at some of your—you spent your time at NASA as an astronaut, and when you came in, there was this group of astronauts that had been to the Moon. How did you and your comrades from the MOL Program kind of become part of this group of astronauts? How did you interact with them and did you feel welcome by them or was there somewhat of a—

[User] Oh, no, I thought they treated us fine. We weren’t going to take any of their slots to go to the Moon. We were there, and they could have us help them. We weren’t certainly any threat or any competition at the time.

[Assistant] So you were just a helpful resource to them by this time.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So that’s good.\n\n You talked earlier about how you were a crew representative in tests and things of that nature. What was the interaction like between the astronaut corps and the engineers and other parts of NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no, I thought they treated us fine. We weren’t going to take any of their slots to go to the Moon. We were there, and they could have us help them. We weren’t certainly any threat or any competition at the time.

[Assistant] So you were just a helpful resource to them by this time.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So that’s good.\n\n You talked earlier about how you were a crew representative in tests and things of that nature. What was the interaction like between the astronaut corps and the engineers and other parts of NASA?

[User] I think usually very favorable. Occasionally we’d get into some fights, but that’s true in any development program.\n\n But you might be looking at something such as a control system, then they’d want somebody to fly the simulator. And so they’d choose a crew member, obviously, to go fly the simulator, and you might fly, you know, a hundred runs to get some statistical analysis of what this control system change meant. Or you’d be discussing just various things, what the requirements would be to do something.

[Assistant] Another thing that astronauts have to deal with is working with PAO [Public Affairs Office] and public relations. How did astronauts, in general, and you, in particular, feel about the public relations aspect of your job as an astronaut?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think that NASA can probably assign more of the activities to commercial organizations. I mean, certainly Spacehab is doing the job that it’s doing right now with its modules without much government oversight, and that can occur, and I think that Congress is supportive of that.\n\n You’ve got to get there if you’re ever going to really open space to the general public. It’s hard to bring passengers, paying passengers, along for the first time, but probably necessary. It’s going to happen eventually. You know, we wouldn’t have all the airplanes flying with all the passengers around the country if we didn’t have passengers at some time on airplanes.\n\n And, hopefully, we can go back to the Moon or on to Mars or some other places that are truly exploratory, which private industry is not going to do. Private industry has to have some guaranteed reward for the task that they’re going to take up, and there aren’t any right now that we know of in going to the Moon or going on to Mars, but I think the role of government is to lead the way in some of these new areas and then let industry follow.

[Assistant] If you look back on your career, what do you feel like are the greatest challenges that you’ve had?

[User] There have been a lot of challenges. I’m not sure that I could identify any one as the greatest. I don’t have one that stands out as the greatest challenge.

[Assistant] Are there any significant people that really impacted your career or that you worked with that really made an impact on you?

[User] Sure. Started all the way back in grade school when I had a teacher that suggested that I go to a school that was Brooklyn Technical High School, and she kind of steered me towards that, and then the professors at the Air Force Academy were starting up the space program, and through all the people here at NASA. There’s certainly a lot of people that have influenced me all the way in my career.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you’d like to maybe talk about that I didn’t bring up or open subject to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There have been a lot of challenges. I’m not sure that I could identify any one as the greatest. I don’t have one that stands out as the greatest challenge.

[Assistant] Are there any significant people that really impacted your career or that you worked with that really made an impact on you?

[User] Sure. Started all the way back in grade school when I had a teacher that suggested that I go to a school that was Brooklyn Technical High School, and she kind of steered me towards that, and then the professors at the Air Force Academy were starting up the space program, and through all the people here at NASA. There’s certainly a lot of people that have influenced me all the way in my career.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you’d like to maybe talk about that I didn’t bring up or open subject to?

[User] I can’t think of anything. Appreciate talking with you.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, I’d like to see if Jennifer or Sandra have any questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Started all the way back in grade school when I had a teacher that suggested that I go to a school that was Brooklyn Technical High School, and she kind of steered me towards that, and then the professors at the Air Force Academy were starting up the space program, and through all the people here at NASA. There’s certainly a lot of people that have influenced me all the way in my career.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you’d like to maybe talk about that I didn’t bring up or open subject to?

[User] I can’t think of anything. Appreciate talking with you.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, I’d like to see if Jennifer or Sandra have any questions.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant]
Jennifer, do you have any?

Actually I don’t. I think that you’ve answered all my questions every time I had one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t think of anything. Appreciate talking with you.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, I’d like to see if Jennifer or Sandra have any questions.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant]
Jennifer, do you have any?

Actually I don’t. I think that you’ve answered all my questions every time I had one.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] You said that the Shuttle training vehicle prepared you for flying with Shuttle and landing. Could you just describe the difference between the Shuttle and other aircraft that you flew, or jets, and landing it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Um. I would say my first exposure to the Peace Corps was when I was a kid in the eighties and saw the Tom Hanks movie Volunteers. That was pretty much all I knew about the Peace Corps. But I grew up with a strong love of travel and interest in learning new things and new people and art and culture and everything. I then went to college to get an engineering degree and started working as an engineer, found it incredibly boring, and felt a little stuck with what I was doing and wanted something new. But I wasn't sure what. And I was in I guess my mid twenties, mid to late twenties at the time, and I don't even honestly remember how it popped into my head.

I didn't always grow up thinking I'm going to join the Peace Corps, but the idea of being able to travel, learn about new people and different places in a different culture and have more meaning to my work than keeping a company out of trouble with the law, which was basically my job, keeping them from polluting beyond legal limits. So I just decided. I was like, why not now? You know, I have the freedom to do so and with no debts and no significant others. So I decided to quit my job and join the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Did you take a leave from your job or you quit it outright?

[User] I quit, yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up? I didn't ask you that to start.

[User] I grew up in a small town in south Alabama in between Pensacola, Florida, and Mobile, Alabama. So I went to school in Mobile pretty much.

[Assistant] All right. And you applied for the Peace Corps. And was it a very complicated process at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I quit, yeah.

[Assistant] Where did you grow up? I didn't ask you that to start.

[User] I grew up in a small town in south Alabama in between Pensacola, Florida, and Mobile, Alabama. So I went to school in Mobile pretty much.

[Assistant] All right. And you applied for the Peace Corps. And was it a very complicated process at the time?

[User]
I didn't think it was very complicated. To me it just seemed long and tedious, though, after having heard what other volunteers went through, mine apparently was fairly quick and painless. I think it maybe only took six or eight months. It was just a whole lot of paperwork, visiting doctors, getting records, shipping that all off. But even my interview was fairly easy. There wasn't anybody. I was living in Melbourne, Florida, in the middle, kind of middle eastern part of the state. And the closest interview place I think was in Atlanta. But I didn't have to go there. They did a phone interview with me, which I found out is not normal, but it even that just felt like I was just chatting with someone. It was, it was very, I felt very friendly, very easy.

The only thing that struck me is, you know, he was like, well, since we're not in person, I just have to ask, do you have purple hair or face tattoos or piercings? Because I guess, you know, especially in certain countries and where I ended up serving probably would not have favored. I already looked weird just being a gringa, but I wasn't too out of place.

[Assistant] Now, what program did you apply for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I grew up in a small town in south Alabama in between Pensacola, Florida, and Mobile, Alabama. So I went to school in Mobile pretty much.

[Assistant] All right. And you applied for the Peace Corps. And was it a very complicated process at the time?

[User]
I didn't think it was very complicated. To me it just seemed long and tedious, though, after having heard what other volunteers went through, mine apparently was fairly quick and painless. I think it maybe only took six or eight months. It was just a whole lot of paperwork, visiting doctors, getting records, shipping that all off. But even my interview was fairly easy. There wasn't anybody. I was living in Melbourne, Florida, in the middle, kind of middle eastern part of the state. And the closest interview place I think was in Atlanta. But I didn't have to go there. They did a phone interview with me, which I found out is not normal, but it even that just felt like I was just chatting with someone. It was, it was very, I felt very friendly, very easy.

The only thing that struck me is, you know, he was like, well, since we're not in person, I just have to ask, do you have purple hair or face tattoos or piercings? Because I guess, you know, especially in certain countries and where I ended up serving probably would not have favored. I already looked weird just being a gringa, but I wasn't too out of place.

[Assistant] Now, what program did you apply for?

[User]
I applied for engineering and ended up getting placed in environmental program in Guatemala, which was environmental education and ecotourism. And my particular job, I actually ended up getting placed with environmental education for school kids, which was interesting to me because I'd never even been around kids before at the time. Never tutored, never taught anybody.

What age group?

Elementary school. Yes.

[Assistant] And what about region of the world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I didn't think it was very complicated. To me it just seemed long and tedious, though, after having heard what other volunteers went through, mine apparently was fairly quick and painless. I think it maybe only took six or eight months. It was just a whole lot of paperwork, visiting doctors, getting records, shipping that all off. But even my interview was fairly easy. There wasn't anybody. I was living in Melbourne, Florida, in the middle, kind of middle eastern part of the state. And the closest interview place I think was in Atlanta. But I didn't have to go there. They did a phone interview with me, which I found out is not normal, but it even that just felt like I was just chatting with someone. It was, it was very, I felt very friendly, very easy.

The only thing that struck me is, you know, he was like, well, since we're not in person, I just have to ask, do you have purple hair or face tattoos or piercings? Because I guess, you know, especially in certain countries and where I ended up serving probably would not have favored. I already looked weird just being a gringa, but I wasn't too out of place.

[Assistant] Now, what program did you apply for?

[User]
I applied for engineering and ended up getting placed in environmental program in Guatemala, which was environmental education and ecotourism. And my particular job, I actually ended up getting placed with environmental education for school kids, which was interesting to me because I'd never even been around kids before at the time. Never tutored, never taught anybody.

What age group?

Elementary school. Yes.

[Assistant] And what about region of the world?

[User] I wanted Latin America because I already knew some Spanish, or Africa because I just felt the need there is so great.

[Assistant] And your first offer was Guatemala?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I applied for engineering and ended up getting placed in environmental program in Guatemala, which was environmental education and ecotourism. And my particular job, I actually ended up getting placed with environmental education for school kids, which was interesting to me because I'd never even been around kids before at the time. Never tutored, never taught anybody.

What age group?

Elementary school. Yes.

[Assistant] And what about region of the world?

[User] I wanted Latin America because I already knew some Spanish, or Africa because I just felt the need there is so great.

[Assistant] And your first offer was Guatemala?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you get much lead time or did they say pack up and show up in another week or so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wanted Latin America because I already knew some Spanish, or Africa because I just felt the need there is so great.

[Assistant] And your first offer was Guatemala?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you get much lead time or did they say pack up and show up in another week or so?

[User] I was accepted in October and, or given, I was accepted and then given my placement, I think in October and I left in January. So I had plenty of time to give my notice to my job, sell all my stuff, tell my family.

[Assistant] Tell me what your transition was then from civilian life into the Peace Corps. They had a staging and then a training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you get much lead time or did they say pack up and show up in another week or so?

[User] I was accepted in October and, or given, I was accepted and then given my placement, I think in October and I left in January. So I had plenty of time to give my notice to my job, sell all my stuff, tell my family.

[Assistant] Tell me what your transition was then from civilian life into the Peace Corps. They had a staging and then a training?

[User]
Yes, we did just probably, it might have been overnight, but a few hours staging in Miami. We all met in Miami. They gave us a couple hour debrief. I think we spent the night there. And then the next day we got on a plane to Guatemala. Most of us, one person actually decided not to get on the plane, which was interesting. You know, made it to staging, but I guess decided it was not for them. And then we were driven immediately to our training facility once we got in country, kind of given about a one hour tour of the training facility, told we would be taking classes in health, culture, language, and our technical specialty.

And then we were brought to a local house and dropped off and said, okay, here's the family you're going to be living with for the next, well, that family, two months, and we'll pick you up in the morning to bring you to the training center.

[Assistant] And you went alone to your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was accepted in October and, or given, I was accepted and then given my placement, I think in October and I left in January. So I had plenty of time to give my notice to my job, sell all my stuff, tell my family.

[Assistant] Tell me what your transition was then from civilian life into the Peace Corps. They had a staging and then a training?

[User]
Yes, we did just probably, it might have been overnight, but a few hours staging in Miami. We all met in Miami. They gave us a couple hour debrief. I think we spent the night there. And then the next day we got on a plane to Guatemala. Most of us, one person actually decided not to get on the plane, which was interesting. You know, made it to staging, but I guess decided it was not for them. And then we were driven immediately to our training facility once we got in country, kind of given about a one hour tour of the training facility, told we would be taking classes in health, culture, language, and our technical specialty.

And then we were brought to a local house and dropped off and said, okay, here's the family you're going to be living with for the next, well, that family, two months, and we'll pick you up in the morning to bring you to the training center.

[Assistant] And you went alone to your family?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or were you placed in pairs?