[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that time it was more of a—well, it’s really hard to explain. They were involved in what they were doing. Some of them had already flown. Al [Shepard] was sort of he was the head of the Office, as I recall. Maybe Deke [Donald K. Slayton] was; I don’t remember how it was at that time. But—

[Assistant] They—Slayton and Shepard had both been removed from flight status weren’t they?

[User] No, I don’t think so. No.

[Assistant] They were still on?

[User] Shepard hadn’t been. Slayton had. So, I guess Slayton was the head of the Astronaut Office, because it was very small in those days. John Glenn was involved in all of the hoopla after his flight, plus his attempt to run at political office, and he got hurt. And so, he was really kind of away from the thing. Although he was—he welcomed—he and Annie welcomed us all and invited us over to dinner and things like that. So, he made a real special effort. He was really a nice guy. I like John.\n\n The other guys were sort of involved in either flying or getting ready for a flight or having been in a flight, and so it was a—they were kind of over here, and we were kind of over here. There was no animosity. Don’t misunderstand me. And they tried to help as best they could; but they had other things going on. And so, we sort of did our thing and they did their thing.\n\n It wasn’t until we really got into Gemini that we started working together. Gus was looking after that. So, everybody that had any engineering responsibilities in Gemini always worked with Gus to make sure that it was compatible with the other stuff that was going on.

[Assistant] How would you characterize Slayton and Shepard as managers at that early point in their career?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Shepard hadn’t been. Slayton had. So, I guess Slayton was the head of the Astronaut Office, because it was very small in those days. John Glenn was involved in all of the hoopla after his flight, plus his attempt to run at political office, and he got hurt. And so, he was really kind of away from the thing. Although he was—he welcomed—he and Annie welcomed us all and invited us over to dinner and things like that. So, he made a real special effort. He was really a nice guy. I like John.\n\n The other guys were sort of involved in either flying or getting ready for a flight or having been in a flight, and so it was a—they were kind of over here, and we were kind of over here. There was no animosity. Don’t misunderstand me. And they tried to help as best they could; but they had other things going on. And so, we sort of did our thing and they did their thing.\n\n It wasn’t until we really got into Gemini that we started working together. Gus was looking after that. So, everybody that had any engineering responsibilities in Gemini always worked with Gus to make sure that it was compatible with the other stuff that was going on.

[Assistant] How would you characterize Slayton and Shepard as managers at that early point in their career?

[User] I’d just as soon not talk about my opinions of those guys.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I mean, they’re both dead. And—

[Assistant] Let that go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’d just as soon not talk about my opinions of those guys.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I mean, they’re both dead. And—

[Assistant] Let that go.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Was there any particular thing that stands out in your mind or that you recall about the meshing of the military culture of the astronaut corps with the civilian nature of an agency like NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, they’re both dead. And—

[Assistant] Let that go.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Was there any particular thing that stands out in your mind or that you recall about the meshing of the military culture of the astronaut corps with the civilian nature of an agency like NASA?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How did all that go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a little—it was a lot looser. The chain of command was a lot looser. There was no rank. I mean, Air Force Captain or Air Force Major, and the Navy Captain, I mean the rank didn’t play a part in it. Our rank was what our job was, not what our military rank was. We had civilians, and where would you stick them? Although I guess they were the equivalent of full Colonels! We always used to like to fly around with Elliot [M.] See [Jr.] and Neil [A.] Armstrong, because we’d get really good treatment when we got to a military base!

[Assistant] I guess that the civilian emphasis was really a top-level political decision at the time, and—

[User] Absolutely. The reason for that was that we had tracking stations all around the world in foreign countries, and if this thing had any—smacked at all of military then there would be political repercussions—or there could be political repercussions in each of those countries. Every one of them had a different political situation, and if it looked like these countries were supporting an American military operation, then there could be a lot of problems, either domestically or with some of their foreign relations. So, this was strictly a civilian project.

[Assistant] This next question may get into what [Benjamin] Disraeli called “lies, damned lies, and statistics.” But one of the things that stands out, and the kind of—stands out in my recollection, very unscientifically, is that early on in the astronaut program, space program, there seemed to be an inordinate number of training accidents and fatalities among the astronaut corps. You lost one out of the first group; two of your group of nine; four out of the next group.

[User] Yeah, we lost a lot of people. I think there may even have been more. Yeah, because Gus got killed in that—and Elliot See was killed in an airplane accident. Ed White was killed in that spacecraft fire.

[Assistant] Yeah. There was a lot of attrition.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we lost a lot of people. I think there may even have been more. Yeah, because Gus got killed in that—and Elliot See was killed in an airplane accident. Ed White was killed in that spacecraft fire.

[Assistant] Yeah. There was a lot of attrition.

[User] [Roger B.] Chaffee—was killed in the fire. And [Clifton] C. C. Williams [Jr.] in an airplane accident. And—

[Assistant] Freeman.

[User] —Ted [Theodore] Freeman in an airplane accident. Charlie [Charles A.] Bassett [II] in an airplane accident. Then Ed [Edward G.] Givens [Jr.] was killed in an auto accident. Yeah, we had a lot of guys get killed.

[Assistant] Is there any explanation for that, that you can—looking back on it? Or is it just the luck of the draw?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Roger B.] Chaffee—was killed in the fire. And [Clifton] C. C. Williams [Jr.] in an airplane accident. And—

[Assistant] Freeman.

[User] —Ted [Theodore] Freeman in an airplane accident. Charlie [Charles A.] Bassett [II] in an airplane accident. Then Ed [Edward G.] Givens [Jr.] was killed in an auto accident. Yeah, we had a lot of guys get killed.

[Assistant] Is there any explanation for that, that you can—looking back on it? Or is it just the luck of the draw?

[User] It was the fire—that was a problem with not knowing enough about what was going on in the world of spaceflight. We were all novices. The airplane accidents were just sort of things that happen. They all came about different ways. Freeman hit a goose in the traffic pattern. Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were—got caught in some bad weather and ran into a building. C. C. Williams just had an airplane accident—airplane problem just was flying from the Cape back to Houston. He was on my backup crew at the time. Givens had an automobile accident, and those things happen. It was just that we had, you know, the loss rate in the group right behind ours was really high. And as a whole, I mean, the 30 guys that we had that flew; we have eight or nine—seven or eight guys got killed. That’s quite a bunch.

[Assistant] Overall the record has been very good. But for the early groups, it seemed to be much more in line with what you expect for test pilots.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —Ted [Theodore] Freeman in an airplane accident. Charlie [Charles A.] Bassett [II] in an airplane accident. Then Ed [Edward G.] Givens [Jr.] was killed in an auto accident. Yeah, we had a lot of guys get killed.

[Assistant] Is there any explanation for that, that you can—looking back on it? Or is it just the luck of the draw?

[User] It was the fire—that was a problem with not knowing enough about what was going on in the world of spaceflight. We were all novices. The airplane accidents were just sort of things that happen. They all came about different ways. Freeman hit a goose in the traffic pattern. Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were—got caught in some bad weather and ran into a building. C. C. Williams just had an airplane accident—airplane problem just was flying from the Cape back to Houston. He was on my backup crew at the time. Givens had an automobile accident, and those things happen. It was just that we had, you know, the loss rate in the group right behind ours was really high. And as a whole, I mean, the 30 guys that we had that flew; we have eight or nine—seven or eight guys got killed. That’s quite a bunch.

[Assistant] Overall the record has been very good. But for the early groups, it seemed to be much more in line with what you expect for test pilots.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] I think if I remember the statistic on that one. It’s 1 in 4 loss rate.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the fire—that was a problem with not knowing enough about what was going on in the world of spaceflight. We were all novices. The airplane accidents were just sort of things that happen. They all came about different ways. Freeman hit a goose in the traffic pattern. Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were—got caught in some bad weather and ran into a building. C. C. Williams just had an airplane accident—airplane problem just was flying from the Cape back to Houston. He was on my backup crew at the time. Givens had an automobile accident, and those things happen. It was just that we had, you know, the loss rate in the group right behind ours was really high. And as a whole, I mean, the 30 guys that we had that flew; we have eight or nine—seven or eight guys got killed. That’s quite a bunch.

[Assistant] Overall the record has been very good. But for the early groups, it seemed to be much more in line with what you expect for test pilots.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] I think if I remember the statistic on that one. It’s 1 in 4 loss rate.

[User] Yeah. As a matter of fact, the airplanes they got killed in were all T-38s, which is a pretty reliable airplane. But that’s what flying’s about!

[Assistant] Well, I recall after each one of those accidents, there seemed to be a hue and cry from the press and from members of Congress saying, “These things are just too dangerous. We can’t afford risking these highly trained, experienced people. And we need—” And then there would be a study and a look at whether we really needed high-performance aircraft as part of the training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s an interesting question. I—when you say the Astronaut Office, that implies that there’s this homogeneous, uniform opinion which never existed. It may today, but I don’t know. It never existed then. So, there was always disagreement amongst the astronauts about what the relationship with the flight controller ought to be. I got along with them great! And I would share anything with them. It didn’t make any difference what they wanted. I mean, I didn’t have any secrets. And so, I never had a problem like that. But some of the guys—some of the astronauts didn’t get along that well with them!

[Assistant] Do you think—

[User] And some of the astronauts didn’t get along that well with the contractors, because they were, I thought, overbearing, demanding, idiotic, unreasonable, and I mean, that didn’t contribute anything to anybody whatsoever.

[Assistant] So, in your view, that would have been more of an individual difference with commanders than it was a policy?

[User] An individual relationship, yes. My crews always got along great with them. As a matter of fact, I always looked at it as sort of a flight team, whether it was Flight Operations Directorate or Flight Crew Directorate, or whatever we called them in those days. It was sort of a flight team.

[Assistant] That was one of the things we were talking about earlier, of how that team came together and coalesced, really seemed to have gotten itself on the right track by the time we got into Apollo. And the impression that it may have formed up in Gemini. And I think you said that really this was taken care of before the Gemini Program got rolling.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It moves—that moves the engine back and forth, and it was going like this [gestures]. Fortunately, I had flown a test like that on Apollo 9—it was called a stroking test—where we actually oscillated the engine while we were firing it, and everything held together. So, I knew then that it was okay; but it had to—we had to make sure that it was steering. If the nozzle or the motion it went through was like—could be like this [gestures]. If it went from side-to-side like that, that meant it wasn’t doing any steering at all. But if it went off of an angle over here and just oscillated a little bit about that angle and about this angle and about this angle, it would steer the spacecraft. So, we had to determine that.\n\n And we found after some test and very quick tests that, indeed, it would control even though it was oscillating like that. But if we had found that it wouldn’t control, there was no doubt in my mind what my decision would have been. The Mission Rules said “come home,” and that’s exactly what we would have done, was to come home. And all the testing I had the guys doing was to allow me to find out whether we were going to control or not control. The decision after that was, well, at least the come home decision was easy. Staying there was still a little difficult! But it—but that was how those Mission Rules worked.

[Assistant] Before we get out of Gemini, I want to ask you a trivia question.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] What did Jim McDivitt, Frank Borman, and Neil Armstrong all have in common?

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] And if my research is correct, you were—in the history of NASA, you were the three rookie commanders. You were given—your first flight assignment was a command assignment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] What did Jim McDivitt, Frank Borman, and Neil Armstrong all have in common?

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] And if my research is correct, you were—in the history of NASA, you were the three rookie commanders. You were given—your first flight assignment was a command assignment.

[User] Yeah, I guess so. Well, Frank yeah, Frank was the commander of our backup crew.

[Assistant] Of course. Yes. And that had to be the case in Mercury because we had all we didn’t have flight experience. But beginning with Gemini—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have no idea.

[Assistant] And if my research is correct, you were—in the history of NASA, you were the three rookie commanders. You were given—your first flight assignment was a command assignment.

[User] Yeah, I guess so. Well, Frank yeah, Frank was the commander of our backup crew.

[Assistant] Of course. Yes. And that had to be the case in Mercury because we had all we didn’t have flight experience. But beginning with Gemini—

[User] Yeah. They were all rookies! Yeah.

[Assistant] —we had the opportunity to fly an experienced space traveler as a commander, but you, Borman, and Armstrong were all selected for your first flight as a commander. And—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I guess so. Well, Frank yeah, Frank was the commander of our backup crew.

[Assistant] Of course. Yes. And that had to be the case in Mercury because we had all we didn’t have flight experience. But beginning with Gemini—

[User] Yeah. They were all rookies! Yeah.

[Assistant] —we had the opportunity to fly an experienced space traveler as a commander, but you, Borman, and Armstrong were all selected for your first flight as a commander. And—

[User] Yeah. I hadn’t focused on that. I will tell you a funny story about the—getting picked to fly on Gemini IV. I was called in and told I was going to command it, and then some time later it was announced at an astronaut pilots’ meeting and then finally they were going to make the public announcement. And so, I thought I’d tell my kids about it.\n\n So, one Saturday morning we were sitting at our—sitting there having breakfast at a long table we had. And so, we finally got to this dramatic moment and I said, “Kids, I’m going to tell you something really important.” And, let’s see, this was in about ’64 or so. I think they were, like, eight and seven and five or so. And so, I tell them that, you know, “You know that dad’s an astronaut and the astronauts fly in space. I just want to let you know that I’m going to fly in space soon.” And my older boy, Mike, who was probably seven or eight, says, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school.” And then my daughter Ann said, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school, too.” And my son Patrick said, “Dad, there’s a fly in the milk bottle.” He was really a—!

[Assistant] Do you have any inkling as to how the decision was made to put you on that flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. They were all rookies! Yeah.

[Assistant] —we had the opportunity to fly an experienced space traveler as a commander, but you, Borman, and Armstrong were all selected for your first flight as a commander. And—

[User] Yeah. I hadn’t focused on that. I will tell you a funny story about the—getting picked to fly on Gemini IV. I was called in and told I was going to command it, and then some time later it was announced at an astronaut pilots’ meeting and then finally they were going to make the public announcement. And so, I thought I’d tell my kids about it.\n\n So, one Saturday morning we were sitting at our—sitting there having breakfast at a long table we had. And so, we finally got to this dramatic moment and I said, “Kids, I’m going to tell you something really important.” And, let’s see, this was in about ’64 or so. I think they were, like, eight and seven and five or so. And so, I tell them that, you know, “You know that dad’s an astronaut and the astronauts fly in space. I just want to let you know that I’m going to fly in space soon.” And my older boy, Mike, who was probably seven or eight, says, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school.” And then my daughter Ann said, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school, too.” And my son Patrick said, “Dad, there’s a fly in the milk bottle.” He was really a—!

[Assistant] Do you have any inkling as to how the decision was made to put you on that flight?

[User] Well, I was the best-looking astronaut there was, and so they picked me on looks in there. Personality! No, I have no idea.

[Assistant] It was one of those mysteries of how the how the crew assignments were made.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I hadn’t focused on that. I will tell you a funny story about the—getting picked to fly on Gemini IV. I was called in and told I was going to command it, and then some time later it was announced at an astronaut pilots’ meeting and then finally they were going to make the public announcement. And so, I thought I’d tell my kids about it.\n\n So, one Saturday morning we were sitting at our—sitting there having breakfast at a long table we had. And so, we finally got to this dramatic moment and I said, “Kids, I’m going to tell you something really important.” And, let’s see, this was in about ’64 or so. I think they were, like, eight and seven and five or so. And so, I tell them that, you know, “You know that dad’s an astronaut and the astronauts fly in space. I just want to let you know that I’m going to fly in space soon.” And my older boy, Mike, who was probably seven or eight, says, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school.” And then my daughter Ann said, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school, too.” And my son Patrick said, “Dad, there’s a fly in the milk bottle.” He was really a—!

[Assistant] Do you have any inkling as to how the decision was made to put you on that flight?

[User] Well, I was the best-looking astronaut there was, and so they picked me on looks in there. Personality! No, I have no idea.

[Assistant] It was one of those mysteries of how the how the crew assignments were made.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Something that Deke and Al kind of kept to themselves, I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was the best-looking astronaut there was, and so they picked me on looks in there. Personality! No, I have no idea.

[Assistant] It was one of those mysteries of how the how the crew assignments were made.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Something that Deke and Al kind of kept to themselves, I guess.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Was there any discussion within the—in your group at the time as to why one person would be singled out for a—there wasn’t so much a basis in seniority to make that sort of thing. In other words, Ed White had about the same seniority that you did. But—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Something that Deke and Al kind of kept to themselves, I guess.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Was there any discussion within the—in your group at the time as to why one person would be singled out for a—there wasn’t so much a basis in seniority to make that sort of thing. In other words, Ed White had about the same seniority that you did. But—

[User] Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to what I said earlier. I had the—I was the best-looking guy and I had the greatest personality, and so how do you go wrong?

[Assistant] Probably as good an answer as any. What was—well, you talked a bit about your relationship with Ed White and the fact that you had known each other in college, gone through selection together in that group. How was Ed’s selection for that mission handled? Was that something that you were selected as commander and then asked who do you want on your crew? Or were you selected as a group? As a pair?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. None. None. And Ed had a very weak stomach. He had a weak stomach. Every time we went up in a zero-g airplane, he got sick. As soon as we landed in the water, he was sick. I mean, he was—he had a very, very sensitive stomach to that. You know, he never got sick flying airplanes and the crazy motions that we did. And we were short on fuel, so the spacecraft was just tumbling for a couple of days. Just around like this [gestures]. And it didn’t bother him at all.

[Assistant] Did the relative ease of your EVA perhaps mislead NASA, for the later ones into thinking that we really understood that process when we didn’t?

[User] Oh, I think so, yeah.

[Assistant] You mentioned—

[User] I think that we overreached a lot in the EVA thing to start with. We didn’t do anything. Like I told you, that gun was utterly useless. I’d practiced with it enough and I could run around the air table with it flying, but that was a two-dimensional thing. I could either go this way or that way, and there was no—there were six degrees of freedom. There’s three in motion and three in attitude. We had no attitude freedom whatsoever standing on that table. We were upright. And while you could rotate around this way, you couldn’t go back and forth this way or the other way [McDivitt demonstrates].\n\n So, we really were lacking a lot of the degrees of freedom. As soon as we got up in space, the only way you could make that gun work is if you fired it exactly through your center of gravity. And trying to find your center of gravity—we didn’t know where our center of gravity was; so there was no way we could’ve done it accurately. Yeah, that was a oversimplified thing. And fortunately, we didn’t have much gas in the gun and didn’t put out much thrust; so it couldn’t hurt us much.

[Assistant] But EVAs, spacewalks on the later flights, [Gemini] IX, X, XI, we had some really serious problems on them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Yeah. As a matter of fact later on, on Apollo 9, there was a big Mylar balloon up there, I forget what they called it, Echo, I think it was. They wanted to know if we wanted to see Echo. It was out at, like, 800 or 900 miles. And we said, “Oh yeah, let’s look at that.” So, we got the spacecraft oriented around in a certain direction, and I had a six-power telescope in the left-hand window of the spacecraft. And Dave [David R.] Scott went down in the lower equipment bay. He had to use a 28-power telescope down there. And so, they finally said, “Okay, it’s coming up in the sight now.” And Dave said, “Oh yeah, I’ve got it.” He had the telescope tracking it with the computer. And so, I looked out there and, “Oh yeah,” I said, “I can see it.” And Rusty was sitting over in the other window and he didn’t have anything, and he said, “Oh yeah, I can see it, too!” So, we were looking at this thing probably near 1,000 miles.\n\n And later on in the flight, they wanted to know if we could—if we wanted to see the ascent stage, which we put in this huge orbit around the Earth. And it was coming down, and it was some thousands of miles away. They wanted to know if we wanted to see it. “Oh yeah, let’s see if we can find it.” So, we put the orbit into our computer and had our telescope track it. And we could see it. Now, we were using a 28-powered telescope, but we could see it out at some number of thousand of miles.

[Assistant] This was your Apollo booster?

[User] Yeah. It actually was the ascent stage of the lunar module.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Which was not very large.

[Assistant] When you were on your Gemini flight, one of the other objectives was to rendezvous with the upper stage.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It actually was the ascent stage of the lunar module.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Which was not very large.

[Assistant] When you were on your Gemini flight, one of the other objectives was to rendezvous with the upper stage.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That didn’t really work out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, everybody—I mean, you know, we weren’t exactly in the dark about what the Moon looked like because we had, I think it was the Surveyor spacecraft that took pretty good photos of it. And we had this other spacecraft that flew right straight into the Moon. I remember being out at JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory; Pasadena, California] the first crash that they had on the Moon, where the [Ranger] spacecraft flew right straight in the Moon. It took a picture, transmitted it; took another picture, transmitted it; took another picture and transmitted it. And the last picture, you know, was only half a picture because it hit the Moon. And you could—I mean, you could guess that it wasn’t really deep. And then we had this other one that actually landed on the Moon that had a scoop on it [Surveyor]. So, we knew that there wasn’t a lot of dust.

[Assistant] You were pretty confident the lunar module wasn’t going to get buried in it.

[User] Yeah. That was not one of my big concerns.

[Assistant] Do you think people today remember or appreciate just how difficult and dangerous Apollo really was?

[User] Well, people in those days didn’t appreciate how difficult and dangerous it was! I mean, we made it look way too easy. When I got into the program, I figured we’d try five, six, eight, ten times before we ever had a successful one. I had no idea in the world it would run as smoothly as it did. You know, that’s why we had the lettered missions. We had—we were going to go on C until we got C done. And then we were going to go on D until we got it done. Then to E. And then F. And then G. The fact that we didn’t even do one of them, I mean, yeah, it was extremely successful.

[Assistant] At the time the crews were assigned, do you think that Deke Slayton, NASA management had a strong inkling that Neil Armstrong’s crew would be the one to land on the Moon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, I remember Brian well.

[Assistant] —he passed away a few years ago—

[User] Did he?

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah.

[User] Oh my God, I didn’t know that! Yeah. I used to run into Brian in Washington a lot.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, Brian died of cancer a year or so ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did he?

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah.

[User] Oh my God, I didn’t know that! Yeah. I used to run into Brian in Washington a lot.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, Brian died of cancer a year or so ago.

[User] Oh my God! That’s terrible. You know, he wrote a really great article about mothering the astronauts after their flights. I’ve got it around here someplace. I don’t even know what magazine it was in. But a great, great article. A good guy. I’m sorry. Well, go ahead.

[Assistant] Well, Brian recalled going to a press conference, and it may’ve been the one that you were reflecting on, and he said that it was so beneficial in his view that the press had been in the Control Center when this happened, had been listening to the flight director’s loop, because he said it allowed one of the participants, and he couldn’t remember which one to begin his remarks by saying, “Ladies and gentlemen, you know everything we know. The only thing you don’t know is what we’re going to do about it. And that’s what we’re here to tell you.” And it, in his view, had a tremendous amount to do with garnering public support at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Except all those studies I did. I’ve got lots of simulations. I can run the Shuttle trajectory just as well as they can, right into orbit. I did the Hercules. Oh, I did a lot of things for some contractors. We worked with Hercules and Eagle Engineering to develop a set of modular rockets. They were all solid rockets that could be used to put up a lot of different payloads, but we couldn’t get NASA to buy it. They didn’t have to build it. They just had to buy it.

[Assistant] Let me ask you just two questions before we close out today. Looking back over your career with NASA and with NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics], what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Most success. Oh, you mean for NASA?

[Assistant] For NASA or with NACA.

[User] For NASA, the most significant accomplishment was that trajectory program, that trajectory program, for NASA and for the [Johnson] Space Center over here, because there was a big controversy. I see in this list of people that were interviewed that a guy named [Joseph F.] Shea was interviewed. He did come down to work here, but he tried to get that program to go to Headquarters. That was the most significant one. It was more [significant] to the work I did for Apollo and Shuttle, because they impacted programs. The other ones, like the lateral stability aircraft due to high altitude, that’s just technical documentation to educate designers, and there was no real input into projects.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most success. Oh, you mean for NASA?

[Assistant] For NASA or with NACA.

[User] For NASA, the most significant accomplishment was that trajectory program, that trajectory program, for NASA and for the [Johnson] Space Center over here, because there was a big controversy. I see in this list of people that were interviewed that a guy named [Joseph F.] Shea was interviewed. He did come down to work here, but he tried to get that program to go to Headquarters. That was the most significant one. It was more [significant] to the work I did for Apollo and Shuttle, because they impacted programs. The other ones, like the lateral stability aircraft due to high altitude, that’s just technical documentation to educate designers, and there was no real input into projects.

[Assistant] What do you think was your biggest challenge?

[User] The Skylab Program. [I did the Skylab Program myself. Tom [Thomas F.] Gibson and Ellis Henry did the Apollo Mission Planning Program.] That was a challenge, but we knew how to do it. Tom Gibson and Ellis Henry were just fantastic about completing it in three or four months. [Tom was not with me when Skylab came in, and Ellis was working on trajectories to Mars. Ellis published MSC Internal Note No. 70-FM-89 “Round-Trip Mars Orbital Missions in the 1980s”.] I would guess that maybe it was less than six months, and they were probably the only two persons in the organization who could have done that in that time.

[Assistant] Let me ask Rebecca if she has any questions for you today. No?\n\n Do you think there’s anything we’ve overlooked? I mean, you did a fantastic job of giving us a sense of your career with NASA and with NACA.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Skylab Program. [I did the Skylab Program myself. Tom [Thomas F.] Gibson and Ellis Henry did the Apollo Mission Planning Program.] That was a challenge, but we knew how to do it. Tom Gibson and Ellis Henry were just fantastic about completing it in three or four months. [Tom was not with me when Skylab came in, and Ellis was working on trajectories to Mars. Ellis published MSC Internal Note No. 70-FM-89 “Round-Trip Mars Orbital Missions in the 1980s”.] I would guess that maybe it was less than six months, and they were probably the only two persons in the organization who could have done that in that time.

[Assistant] Let me ask Rebecca if she has any questions for you today. No?\n\n Do you think there’s anything we’ve overlooked? I mean, you did a fantastic job of giving us a sense of your career with NASA and with NACA.

[User] Oh yes, a postscript, postscript. You can use this or you can cut it out if you want to.\n\n During the programming of the guidance computer, Dr. [Richard H.] Battin and I were up at Washington, D.C., giving a progress report on the progress of the guidance computer program, always it comes up, arguments about schedules and everything and questions about schedule. Dr. Battin looked out over the audience and—I quote—he said, “NASA’s idea of a crash program is to get [a woman] pregnant and hope for a baby in one month.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] That’s a great joke.

[User] Oh, I had to laugh. That stunned the whole audience. That’s the saying of the decade, I think.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly have a lot of great memories, and you’ve certainly done a lot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, a postscript, postscript. You can use this or you can cut it out if you want to.\n\n During the programming of the guidance computer, Dr. [Richard H.] Battin and I were up at Washington, D.C., giving a progress report on the progress of the guidance computer program, always it comes up, arguments about schedules and everything and questions about schedule. Dr. Battin looked out over the audience and—I quote—he said, “NASA’s idea of a crash program is to get [a woman] pregnant and hope for a baby in one month.” [Laughter]

[Assistant] That’s a great joke.

[User] Oh, I had to laugh. That stunned the whole audience. That’s the saying of the decade, I think.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly have a lot of great memories, and you’ve certainly done a lot.

[User] Oh, there’s a lot of stuff that pops up every now—I don’t have a recall memory. Things will pop up. This will pop up a memory I didn’t even know I had. For instance, like the fires in California. My sister that’s still living is out there. I called her up and said, “What are you trying to do, burn down California?” She’s in Bakersfield, though. I said, “Do you remember that fire when the mountain behind Mercersburg [Pennsylvania] there caught on fire?”\n\n She said, “Yeah, but I’m surprised that you know it.”\n\n I said, “You must have been about three years old when that happened.”\n\n But I don’t know. I mean, those things just pop up.

[Assistant] Mr. Funk, what’s your favorite memory of Dr. Gilruth, of working with Bob Gilruth? Do you have a special moment that you remember working with him?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I learned about Peace Corps when I was eight years old. The commercials on TV advertising Peace Corps and see that and that sort of sparked my interest in, you know, so as a kid just, you know, wanting to travel when I get older. Travel to different countries and meet different people and cultures and things and it instilled right through school, high school, right through college. I remember my senior year in college submitting an application for Peace Corps. And was really surprised when I got accepted.

[Assistant] Why were you surprised?

[User] Because I know at the time, Peace Corps was, there was a lot of people applying. And I just didn't, I guess I just didn't have any, uh. I just didn't think I would get chosen because of the number of people throughout the country that were applying to become volunteers and selected to go in.

[Assistant] Had you done much traveling before, been overseas?

[User] I had a little bit. I went to England with my roommate. Their father, their parents were stationed in England. Father was a rear admiral in the Navy. And they were going to, he was my roommate at Saint Mary's College in Maryland. And it was during Christmas break. He asked if I wanted to go back with him. And so I took the opportunity to do that and travel back to, um, with him and his brother to England for a couple of weeks during, during the break between semesters.

[Assistant] Quite different from Korea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I know at the time, Peace Corps was, there was a lot of people applying. And I just didn't, I guess I just didn't have any, uh. I just didn't think I would get chosen because of the number of people throughout the country that were applying to become volunteers and selected to go in.

[Assistant] Had you done much traveling before, been overseas?

[User] I had a little bit. I went to England with my roommate. Their father, their parents were stationed in England. Father was a rear admiral in the Navy. And they were going to, he was my roommate at Saint Mary's College in Maryland. And it was during Christmas break. He asked if I wanted to go back with him. And so I took the opportunity to do that and travel back to, um, with him and his brother to England for a couple of weeks during, during the break between semesters.

[Assistant] Quite different from Korea.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you said you were surprised when you found out you were accepted. What was your family's reaction and your friends'? What kind of reactions did you get from them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a little bit. I went to England with my roommate. Their father, their parents were stationed in England. Father was a rear admiral in the Navy. And they were going to, he was my roommate at Saint Mary's College in Maryland. And it was during Christmas break. He asked if I wanted to go back with him. And so I took the opportunity to do that and travel back to, um, with him and his brother to England for a couple of weeks during, during the break between semesters.

[Assistant] Quite different from Korea.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you said you were surprised when you found out you were accepted. What was your family's reaction and your friends'? What kind of reactions did you get from them?

[User] Well, they actually, I had one, one guy from college told me. He said, he said, man, I don't know why you're surprised. He said, that's you. He said, he said, you know, I've always seen you as a kind of person that, that just, you know, you, you've always talked about travel. You've always talked about doing something different. And, um, so he wasn't surprised. And nor was my roommate surprised that I was able to get in.

[Assistant] So did you study public health, health education at school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I sort of, I sort of thought they made a mistake. And actually, I contacted Peace Corps and I talked to the, the person that did the selection. And she actually said to me, she, you know, she explained that during that period of time, I think the Peace Corps director there was, um, a directive by the director that accepting generalists and because in the past I think they were, they had gotten specific volunteers to specific programs and they wanted to do something different. So I was sort of in that generalist group, one of those persons that they picked. And so it was a little clearer. And then she also said, well, Mr. Bryan, she said, we can always kind of delay this. You know, you can go in another group. And I said, no. No.

[Assistant] You were ready.

[User] I'm ready. You know, I'm ready to go in. I'm not delaying this. I, I told her, I said, I've been waiting for this since I was eight years old and there's no delay. She goes, oh okay, fine. She goes, but you'll be provided training. And, um, and also when, when I got it, I remember too, I was in the college dorm grabbing a dictionary off or something and finding out what the heck Hansen's disease was and finding out that it's leprosy. And then, of course, that threw me back even more. It's like, wow. Leprosy. So but after that initial shock and, uh, then it was just pure excitement.

[Assistant] So, uh, so back to the question of how your family and friends reacted. When they, when they heard that you were going to be working with leprosy.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did that give them second thoughts or cause any concern?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did that give them second thoughts or cause any concern?

[User]
Well, it did. There was all kinds of questions and questions that certainly I couldn't answer because I didn't know. I had question even from my parents. My parents were happy, you know, because I knew, they knew I was applying and they knew that I could go to another country for years. They were okay with it, but they weren't okay with leprosy. And my friends were confused because they didn't, first of all, they didn't know leprosy still existed. And nor did I, for that matter. I thought it, you know, after working in it for, learning the disease, you find out it is in the United States and where it is. And, you know, explain to, explain to people that that it does exist in the United States, but it's more prevalent in other countries.

And so as I did some research to it prior to going in the program, I could, I was a little clearer in my mind what it was all about. I could explain it to other folks. And but there was still, it's like, why would you want to do that? Can you catch it? And I said, well, yeah, certainly there's potential to catch it. But you being a health educator, you know how to prevent from doing that. And so there was a lot of explanation that I couldn't go into depth, but just basic as I researched it prior to going in and explaining it to my parents and so forth. But, uh. So but, yeah, there was a lot of questions prior to, prior to doing that.

[Assistant] Now, did you select Korea as a country that you wanted to go to or was it selected for you or just offered?

[User] It was selected for me.

[Assistant] Did you have any preference when? When you first thought about joining, where did you envision going?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was selected for me.

[Assistant] Did you have any preference when? When you first thought about joining, where did you envision going?

[User] Well, I guess that was part of the shock too. When I got accepted, I opened the letter up and said, oh, wow, I got accepted. Korea. Hansen's disease. That was part of the shock because I had selected Africa, India, and I can't remember the third choice. And this was like way off the mark.

[Assistant] Right. Totally different.

[User] And yeah, so.

[Assistant] And yet you were ready to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess that was part of the shock too. When I got accepted, I opened the letter up and said, oh, wow, I got accepted. Korea. Hansen's disease. That was part of the shock because I had selected Africa, India, and I can't remember the third choice. And this was like way off the mark.

[Assistant] Right. Totally different.

[User] And yeah, so.

[Assistant] And yet you were ready to go.

[User] I was ready to go. Yeah.

[Assistant] All right. So you, uh, you got selected. You're going to Korea. Did you do any training in the States beforehand, or did you go straight off to Korea and do your training there? How, how was it done in your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was ready to go. Yeah.

[Assistant] All right. So you, uh, you got selected. You're going to Korea. Did you do any training in the States beforehand, or did you go straight off to Korea and do your training there? How, how was it done in your group?

[User] The, um, there was, there was a public service hospital in Louisiana. They did research in leprosy and other concepts of diseases, and leprosy was one of them. It was open at the time. It's closed now. And that's where we did part of our training. We were there for about a week. And it was specifically on leprosy.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And then when we left there, we went to Korea, and we were in an area in Korea called Anyang. Anyang is, has a, I guess you call it a compound. And it's a hospital compound. And they specifically research leprosy. And outside the compound, there are three villages. And it's like resettlement villages. And those have folks that, uh, it's a community of folks, but a percentage of those folks have active leprosy. Active or leprosy that's been treated there in remission.

[Assistant] Did you go directly there or did you do some training with the group before getting out to your site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was, it was really. I mean, they went into, they went into physiology, went to the physiology of the body. They even how to suture up a wound, how to do dressings. How did, you know, even pharmacology. It was, it was really hard and, um, well designed, but really hard because.

[Assistant] On top of learning a new language.

[User] Absolutely. Yeah. So we go from, from culture and language in the morning and the technical language in the afternoon. And by the end of the day, it's like you have a lot of free time because the afternoon, afternoon right on through until the next day you're off. We all crashed. We're just brain dead because going through this. And so but it was, it was, it was very good. I mean they did it very well. But here again, I'm looking back, here's a guy with a sociology degree going into pre-med.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And whereas some of my, my colleagues were more prepared for it because they had two folks in there in the pre-med and at time I didn't know that. But they, you know, of course they did very well and some other folks were similar to me. One guy was an English major and so there was a couple of generalists in there. But we all made it through and I mean did fine and gave us a good basis for, for language. And then after that three weeks of that, we went back to Seoul for a couple of days, got sworn in. They gave us a train ticket and just waved to us and said, see you in two years. And I remember being on the train, on the train, and just kind of wondering where am I going? Because I had no idea.

[Assistant] Were there any other volunteers going with you or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Yeah. So we go from, from culture and language in the morning and the technical language in the afternoon. And by the end of the day, it's like you have a lot of free time because the afternoon, afternoon right on through until the next day you're off. We all crashed. We're just brain dead because going through this. And so but it was, it was, it was very good. I mean they did it very well. But here again, I'm looking back, here's a guy with a sociology degree going into pre-med.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And whereas some of my, my colleagues were more prepared for it because they had two folks in there in the pre-med and at time I didn't know that. But they, you know, of course they did very well and some other folks were similar to me. One guy was an English major and so there was a couple of generalists in there. But we all made it through and I mean did fine and gave us a good basis for, for language. And then after that three weeks of that, we went back to Seoul for a couple of days, got sworn in. They gave us a train ticket and just waved to us and said, see you in two years. And I remember being on the train, on the train, and just kind of wondering where am I going? Because I had no idea.

[Assistant] Were there any other volunteers going with you or?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You were on your own. You're the only volunteer going.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And whereas some of my, my colleagues were more prepared for it because they had two folks in there in the pre-med and at time I didn't know that. But they, you know, of course they did very well and some other folks were similar to me. One guy was an English major and so there was a couple of generalists in there. But we all made it through and I mean did fine and gave us a good basis for, for language. And then after that three weeks of that, we went back to Seoul for a couple of days, got sworn in. They gave us a train ticket and just waved to us and said, see you in two years. And I remember being on the train, on the train, and just kind of wondering where am I going? Because I had no idea.

[Assistant] Were there any other volunteers going with you or?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You were on your own. You're the only volunteer going.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Was it back to the same area that you did your training or a totally different place?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You were on your own. You're the only volunteer going.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Was it back to the same area that you did your training or a totally different place?

[User] No, it was to your site.

[Assistant] To your site.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it was to your site.

[Assistant] To your site.

[User] Yeah, it was, it was about a five hour train ride down. Our training was in Seoul. Seoul. And the, my training site was in an area called Cheongchun. I mean, I'm sorry, Jinju and which was a, it's about a five hour train ride.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I get there and we, for the past two months, we've been instructed in standard, the standard colloquial type of Korean. And, um, so and the standard Korean is spoken in the big city of Seoul. You get down the country, there's a dialect there. So I have no idea with my coworker's talking about. I'm thrown in confusion and can't, because he's speaking a dialect and he's, he's frustrated because I can't understand him. And, and I'm trying to speak Korean, the standard. I'm all confused now.

[Assistant] And did they have any English competency at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No. Okay.

[User] I mean, yes, no. What is your name? How are you?

[Assistant] Pretty basic.

[User] Pretty basic. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you really jumped in the deep end?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, yes, no. What is your name? How are you?

[Assistant] Pretty basic.

[User] Pretty basic. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you really jumped in the deep end?

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] And were there any episodes during training that really stood out? Any, any, any real big memories there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Pretty basic. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you really jumped in the deep end?

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] And were there any episodes during training that really stood out? Any, any, any real big memories there?

[User] Oh, yeah, I can tell you one.

[Assistant] Good or bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, uh, and so I just said, just and he's like, you know. You know, annyeong hasimnikka. And he was saying that, but I didn't hear it initially. He had to say it three times. Finally, the last time I heard it, it still is he was spitting out and I just reached out and, you know, he had no, he had all nubs. He hardly had any fingers. And I just shook his hand and he just had this whatever smile that he could get because all his whole face was paralyzed. He just kind of smiled and just shook my hand and walked away. And I just stood there. I had never seen anything like that in my life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Even on Pappy on it.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] And but that, that stood out, I think initially in training for me.

[Assistant] So yeah, that must have been one of many.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Even on Pappy on it.

[Assistant] Yeah, right.

[User] And but that, that stood out, I think initially in training for me.

[Assistant] So yeah, that must have been one of many.

[User] Yeah. Well, yeah.

[Assistant] So. Okay, so you complete training and you get out to your site. What, what was the living situation like out there at your site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And but that, that stood out, I think initially in training for me.

[Assistant] So yeah, that must have been one of many.

[User] Yeah. Well, yeah.

[Assistant] So. Okay, so you complete training and you get out to your site. What, what was the living situation like out there at your site?

[User] Well, my coworker had arranged initially when I arrived to the site to stay in a hotel for about a week until they got my living arrangements in the village.

[Assistant] Your coworker was a local?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, yeah.

[Assistant] So. Okay, so you complete training and you get out to your site. What, what was the living situation like out there at your site?

[User] Well, my coworker had arranged initially when I arrived to the site to stay in a hotel for about a week until they got my living arrangements in the village.

[Assistant] Your coworker was a local?

[User]
Yeah, I was, I was stationed in two places officially, you know, stationed in the health center. And just down the street was a clinic. And the health center, the, my coworker was specializing in leprosy. And the, down at the clinic there was a doctor who I was assigned to. He was a leprosy specialist. And so after I met them, the coworker set me up in the site. So next day after about a week, he took me down, took me, it's about a 40 minute bus ride to area called Pan Sung. Pan Sung is a, there is a resettlement village of about 300 people with 100 leprosy patients. Out of that 100, three of them are what's called active and then the rest were, um, were non active.

And that's where I was going to live for two years. And so, um, the, so I lived with a family, a family of, uh, of the mother, father, and two sons and two daughters.

[Assistant] So you didn't have your own place? You had a room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my coworker had arranged initially when I arrived to the site to stay in a hotel for about a week until they got my living arrangements in the village.

[Assistant] Your coworker was a local?

[User]
Yeah, I was, I was stationed in two places officially, you know, stationed in the health center. And just down the street was a clinic. And the health center, the, my coworker was specializing in leprosy. And the, down at the clinic there was a doctor who I was assigned to. He was a leprosy specialist. And so after I met them, the coworker set me up in the site. So next day after about a week, he took me down, took me, it's about a 40 minute bus ride to area called Pan Sung. Pan Sung is a, there is a resettlement village of about 300 people with 100 leprosy patients. Out of that 100, three of them are what's called active and then the rest were, um, were non active.

And that's where I was going to live for two years. And so, um, the, so I lived with a family, a family of, uh, of the mother, father, and two sons and two daughters.

[Assistant] So you didn't have your own place? You had a room?

[User] A room inside the house, yeah.

[Assistant] And they did your cooking and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, I was, I was stationed in two places officially, you know, stationed in the health center. And just down the street was a clinic. And the health center, the, my coworker was specializing in leprosy. And the, down at the clinic there was a doctor who I was assigned to. He was a leprosy specialist. And so after I met them, the coworker set me up in the site. So next day after about a week, he took me down, took me, it's about a 40 minute bus ride to area called Pan Sung. Pan Sung is a, there is a resettlement village of about 300 people with 100 leprosy patients. Out of that 100, three of them are what's called active and then the rest were, um, were non active.

And that's where I was going to live for two years. And so, um, the, so I lived with a family, a family of, uh, of the mother, father, and two sons and two daughters.

[Assistant] So you didn't have your own place? You had a room?

[User] A room inside the house, yeah.

[Assistant] And they did your cooking and?

[User] They did everything. Laundry.

[Assistant] Well, there are some benefits.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did everything. Laundry.

[Assistant] Well, there are some benefits.

[User]
Yeah. So. And as time progressed, my living there became a problem. Because here, um. When because I'm assigned and working for the, working for the health center and the doctor, they're giving me medicine. They actually give me bottles of medicine that I distribute every day because relapse is a problem in a lot of the Asian countries. In Korea, it's really a problem. People don't take it every day, especially when the, there's a medicine called DDS, and that's the prevalent one that's used for, for eradicating leprosy. And so we'd give bottles of that. And what I did every day, I'd go around every day and give them the medicine so that they'd get them on a regimen.

And but what was happening sometimes people were hiding medicine because it's an American made product. Any kind of pharmacy product that's American made, it's like works miracles. So many of the patients would stop taking it and use it for other stuff. So with leprosy, leprosy is kind of complicated because it, uh, it can be very active, but it's so slow progressing that you don't. It can take up to ten years for it to come out. And so what'll happen with many of these patients is they'll feel bad one day and, you know, they'll take the medicine that's prescribed. It's like us when we get a cold. We'll feel bad, we'll take the medicine. And as we start feeling better, we'll stop taking it.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] That's exactly what happens with DDS. They'll stop taking it. Then they'll hoard it. And what they'll do is to sell it, give it to their son, or when they're not feeling well or something, it's like a cure all. They saw it as a cure all.

[Assistant] What they think it is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. They think it's a cure all. And, um, and so it results in a lot of relapse medication because they're not taking it as prescribed. Because once they get leprosy and it progresses to a certain type or their immunity and it, they have do it for the rest of their life and they have to do it consistently. So, uh, so. And so this was, um, the point I was making is this, this house that I was at. This guy, this guy of the village, he was what's called a yakban. A yakban is, uh, a yakban is actually in Korean is like a pharmacy, and he was operating a pharmacy in the village. So here I was. I was in conflict because I had medicine that I was giving out, but he was treating people in the village and it became an issue. It became a problem after a while.

[Assistant] And did you move or did you stay there?

[User] I had to move, yeah. And, I mean, they wanted me to stay, but it was a problem. So what happened was I was going to move out of the village and the, the pastor of the village, his wife, she, she sort of cut me off at the path. She came up to me and she goes, you're going to my house.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And so she actually got my stuff and moved it into her house. And that's where I stayed for the rest of my time. And, um. And it ended up being wonderful because the, at the time, they had a daughter, 12 years old, and it was just the pastor and his wife and, uh. And it's interesting. The daughter is now, she is now in her late forties. And we've maintained contact the whole time. Yeah. We, uh, she has five kids.

[Assistant] Still in Korea?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had to move, yeah. And, I mean, they wanted me to stay, but it was a problem. So what happened was I was going to move out of the village and the, the pastor of the village, his wife, she, she sort of cut me off at the path. She came up to me and she goes, you're going to my house.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And so she actually got my stuff and moved it into her house. And that's where I stayed for the rest of my time. And, um. And it ended up being wonderful because the, at the time, they had a daughter, 12 years old, and it was just the pastor and his wife and, uh. And it's interesting. The daughter is now, she is now in her late forties. And we've maintained contact the whole time. Yeah. We, uh, she has five kids.

[Assistant] Still in Korea?

[User] Still in Korea. She's in Pusan and five kids and we still correspond. I send her a birthday card every year. And in fact, I have some pictures on my phone I can show you of the family. And Joyce and I went back, my wife and I went back to visit in 2006 and went to visit them. And it was, it was wonderful. It was, we had a great time. And so, yeah, we still, still maintain contact.

[Assistant] Now, you mentioned Pusan [also called Busan], which is an area in Korea where you're likely to run into quite a few Americans. But how about where your site and where you lived? Had there been a volunteer there before? Had they had experience with Americans before or was this something new?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was totally new. Yeah. It was very new. And, um. They, there's a couple of occasions where they had international folks would come through, like from World Vision?

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User]
Or is it World Vision or, uh, no World Vision. Or maybe it was World Vision. It was one of these organizations that comes through that provides food, supplement food. The one occasion they, they came through and I remember them coming up and said, they asked, and they would and they would call me Mr. Pak. That's a, you know, and all the volunteers had Korean names. Mine was Pak Min Chi. Pak is my family. And so they call me Mr. Pak. They came up. Mr. Pak, are you going to be in the village today? Why are they asking me this? You know I'm usually in the village. Sometimes I leave. And so I thought something was, something wasn't right. And so they said, oh, we're having some visitors come today and.

And in Korean there's this thing called nunchi. Nunchi is, I guess, we take it as this feeling that you get or this when someone is talking, you kind of get the vibes, vibes, something's, something. They want you to do something or something.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I just, what I picked up from this is that I need to disappear for a bit for some reason. I don't know why.

[Assistant] Oh, they were giving you a message.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Or is it World Vision or, uh, no World Vision. Or maybe it was World Vision. It was one of these organizations that comes through that provides food, supplement food. The one occasion they, they came through and I remember them coming up and said, they asked, and they would and they would call me Mr. Pak. That's a, you know, and all the volunteers had Korean names. Mine was Pak Min Chi. Pak is my family. And so they call me Mr. Pak. They came up. Mr. Pak, are you going to be in the village today? Why are they asking me this? You know I'm usually in the village. Sometimes I leave. And so I thought something was, something wasn't right. And so they said, oh, we're having some visitors come today and.

And in Korean there's this thing called nunchi. Nunchi is, I guess, we take it as this feeling that you get or this when someone is talking, you kind of get the vibes, vibes, something's, something. They want you to do something or something.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] I just, what I picked up from this is that I need to disappear for a bit for some reason. I don't know why.

[Assistant] Oh, they were giving you a message.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You shouldn't be in the village.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You shouldn't be in the village.

[User]
Right. So, so I decided I'd take a trip to Jinju. Jinju is the major city where I was. So I said, I think I might go to Jinju today to the health center. And they go, oh, okay. And they were a little happy, you know? Okay, that's what I need to do. But I don't know why I'm doing it, but this is why I need to do. And I found out there was a German couple coming in and apparently they were from the church and they provide funding and stuff, supplemental stuff. So they come in the village, check it out, and then they send stuff. And whether it's money or support, things like that. So if they saw a foreigner in there, that might cause some problems. So, uh. So that's what I found out later.

And then it happened again, excuse me, there was from another country came in and they ended up sending grits. They sent like ten bags, I mean ten 100 pound bags of grits. And so I had these people come up to my room one day and they said, can you come pick out some food for us? And I said, sure, what's, what's going on? And I looked and I saw immediately it said grits on it. And I went, oh boy. What are they going to do with this, grits? I couldn't even explain it. I'm trying to explain that it's like a breakfast, because Koreans don't eat breakfast.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I couldn't explain it. And, uh, and I don't think I ever got it through, even trying to prepare it. It didn't, it. I think they ended up feeding it to their.

[Assistant] Grits isn't your specialty?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Right. So, so I decided I'd take a trip to Jinju. Jinju is the major city where I was. So I said, I think I might go to Jinju today to the health center. And they go, oh, okay. And they were a little happy, you know? Okay, that's what I need to do. But I don't know why I'm doing it, but this is why I need to do. And I found out there was a German couple coming in and apparently they were from the church and they provide funding and stuff, supplemental stuff. So they come in the village, check it out, and then they send stuff. And whether it's money or support, things like that. So if they saw a foreigner in there, that might cause some problems. So, uh. So that's what I found out later.

And then it happened again, excuse me, there was from another country came in and they ended up sending grits. They sent like ten bags, I mean ten 100 pound bags of grits. And so I had these people come up to my room one day and they said, can you come pick out some food for us? And I said, sure, what's, what's going on? And I looked and I saw immediately it said grits on it. And I went, oh boy. What are they going to do with this, grits? I couldn't even explain it. I'm trying to explain that it's like a breakfast, because Koreans don't eat breakfast.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I couldn't explain it. And, uh, and I don't think I ever got it through, even trying to prepare it. It didn't, it. I think they ended up feeding it to their.

[Assistant] Grits isn't your specialty?

[User] No, no. I mean, I love grits, but Koreans don't know grits are. They don't know what to use it for. And I think they ended up feeding it to their cows and pigs. Because they don't eat that stuff. Like, what are they sending them ten 100 pound bags?

[Assistant] A thousand pounds.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I couldn't explain it. And, uh, and I don't think I ever got it through, even trying to prepare it. It didn't, it. I think they ended up feeding it to their.

[Assistant] Grits isn't your specialty?

[User] No, no. I mean, I love grits, but Koreans don't know grits are. They don't know what to use it for. And I think they ended up feeding it to their cows and pigs. Because they don't eat that stuff. Like, what are they sending them ten 100 pound bags?

[Assistant] A thousand pounds.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Well, that's interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. I mean, I love grits, but Koreans don't know grits are. They don't know what to use it for. And I think they ended up feeding it to their cows and pigs. Because they don't eat that stuff. Like, what are they sending them ten 100 pound bags?

[Assistant] A thousand pounds.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Well, that's interesting.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] So arriving at this place where they weren't used to Americans, they didn't speak English. It probably took you a while to, to really fit in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] Well, that's interesting.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] So arriving at this place where they weren't used to Americans, they didn't speak English. It probably took you a while to, to really fit in.

[User] Yeah, it.

[Assistant] Was there, uh?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So.

[Assistant] So arriving at this place where they weren't used to Americans, they didn't speak English. It probably took you a while to, to really fit in.

[User] Yeah, it.

[Assistant] Was there, uh?

[User] It was hard.

[Assistant] It was hard at first. Any time you thought about packing it in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it.

[Assistant] Was there, uh?

[User] It was hard.

[Assistant] It was hard at first. Any time you thought about packing it in?

[User]
Absolutely. Yeah, it was, I think it was the first six months. I remember sitting in my room, because I used to study every day and Korean is very hard, and especially with the dialect, because you don't. You're there and you can only kind of associate what they're meaning with that dialect. A lot of times they're swearing, you know, and doing other things and but, you know. Then nuances, you pick it up what it means. But, but it's very difficult. You're studying standard and they're speaking a dialect and you try and. So after the, I remember the first six months being in my room and close to tears and wondering, what in the heck am I doing here? Why am I going through this trauma? And, um, with this situation where nobody speaks English and nobody really cares.

It's almost like you feel nobody really cares and, you know, you want to do this. You waited all your life to do this since you were eight years old to do this. And I remember, I remember sitting there a whole day. I was there from morning till afternoon and just staring at the wall.

[Assistant] And you had no other volunteers nearby that you could commiserate with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were nearby, but not that close. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like you can hop on a bus or whatever and just, or walk over the next paddy over. It was, you know, it took a little bit. And you don't know whether they were there, whether they got their own issues they're dealing with. So. That day, that day, by the end of that, probably that end of that afternoon, I, you know, I just kind of looked, introspection, and introspectively into my, what I was thinking and what I'd gone through. And I said, all right, you've got to make a decision. Are you going to go or are you going to stay? So I said, I'm staying. That was it. After six months in, that was it.

[Assistant] And did it get easier?

[User] Yes. Got easier and, uh, well, easier in perspective, putting in perspective.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Korean's hard.

[Assistant] Got over the hump.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yemen didn't sound good. It didn't sound good. And thank goodness I didn't choose Yemen, because one of my friends got posted in Yemen. And he was there maybe one, he was there less than a month. The North invaded the South and they pulled him out of there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah. So there's a lot of problems in Yemen. So that's how I ended up in. He called. I got hold of the director and they said, oh, we have a leprosy hospital, but we don't have a program. Send him. So that's how we ended up in Fiji.

[Assistant] All right. All right. So now you've got, uh, you've got two countries that you can compare experiences with.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] So after, after two years in Korea, how did you, how did you like Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So there's a lot of problems in Yemen. So that's how I ended up in. He called. I got hold of the director and they said, oh, we have a leprosy hospital, but we don't have a program. Send him. So that's how we ended up in Fiji.

[Assistant] All right. All right. So now you've got, uh, you've got two countries that you can compare experiences with.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] So after, after two years in Korea, how did you, how did you like Fiji?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] What was your first impression?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] So after, after two years in Korea, how did you, how did you like Fiji?

[User] Um.

[Assistant] What was your first impression?

[User]
It's difficult to compare them because the cultures are just so different. Korea was definitely more difficult because of the language, and a lot of Koreans don't speak English, or at least the English is broken. It's hard to decipher the English. And I think a lot of Koreans, I think, don't expect that Americans specifically would go through the trouble of learning Korean. They were pretty, um, many of them were just floored when I'd start speaking Korean. And they just, I remember there are times when I would speak Korean and they're just looking at me. They're just looking right through me, like I know you're speaking to me, but I don't know you're speaking to me. They're just shocked that you'd go through trouble learning Korean.

And many people would even come to you and said, well, wow, you know, you're speaking Korean. Why? Why would you go through the trouble of speaking Korean? You know, and, and then, you know, then they'd tell you about English, how difficult English is. And I'd get a lot of offers to teach English. Even one of the universities I was in, Anyang, um, Gyeongsang University in Jinju, where I was stationed there, the professor came to me and said, we need, we need a teacher here to speak, to teach English. And I said, well, you don't need me because I'm not an English teacher. And so they, they just bugged me so much. And finally I said, look, I'll do this. I'm not going to teach you English. I'll teach you conversation. And that, that I can help you with. So I went to the university and helped them with their conversational.

[Assistant] Right. To practice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
As you got into the city, it's different. It's a little different there, because either you're thought of as being CIA or, you know, the conversation would come up. And then, then there was an extension to that. I remember, I remember there were some college students and we used to, when I would go into the city, we used to, uh. In Korea, you have just like, um. All around the city, there are what's called dabangs, dabangs are tea shops or tea stores. That's where you go and have tea and coffee and that's where you go and socialize. And so I used to meet college students there, and I think they would meet me just to, just for English conversation. That was fine. You know, and they're friends.

And so the conversation would take on a different context. They'd talk about politics and CIA. And then, then you'd hear some sidebar over here where you would have. Um. I remember back in, back at that time, in the early, in the, er. Around 1980 there was this song that came out and it was, in the context of the song, it was about monkeys. And I would hear this song whenever I would come around. And it was derogatory against African Americans. And, um, but that's, that was.

[Assistant] So somebody would play this song?

[User] No, they would sing it.

[Assistant] Oh, they would sing it?

[User] Yeah, it was kind of.

[Assistant] Oh, okay, okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they would sing it.

[Assistant] Oh, they would sing it?

[User] Yeah, it was kind of.

[Assistant] Oh, okay, okay.

[User] Yeah. Sort of within your hearing. And so those kind of things would happen occasionally. And, um, and occasionally I would run into someone who. But it was mostly, it was in the city, never in the countryside. In the countryside, it was like you were, you're so, you were immersed in there and people didn't care. And you go into the city it was, it was different context. Students would, uh, and it was different. It was different. And often you, you know, and when I would experience that, you'd try and relate why, why is that happening? What, why are they, why are they, you know, making that? And with the song, after I kind of figured that out, I asked the Koreans and they told me why. They told me exactly why. And they told me it was because of that.

[Assistant] Well, in the city and especially around the base, they would have had more interaction with Americans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But this wasn't the base. You know, this wasn't a base.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] This was, this was in Jinju. Jinju didn't have an American base. Yeah.

[Assistant] That's interesting.

[User] Yeah. So it was, uh. It was. And occasionally I would, I would run into, excuse me, run into just, it's probably mostly because I was American, I think. Small percentage because they might have thought I was military. Not assuming that I was military. Well, why is this guy?

[Assistant] Why else would you be there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I'm looking back like, oh, okay. And, and it was, it was just weird. It was, I'd, I'd never experienced anything like that. And so I said, oh, great to meet you. And they just toddled on off and I'm like, okay, that was interesting.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] But, yeah, but those are just some experiences that you run, you know, run into. But overall, just with the two countries it is just different. The language and cultural kinds of things and the dialect and.

[Assistant] Did you have to go through any training again when you went to Fiji?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] They made you go through the language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, yeah, but those are just some experiences that you run, you know, run into. But overall, just with the two countries it is just different. The language and cultural kinds of things and the dialect and.

[Assistant] Did you have to go through any training again when you went to Fiji?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] They made you go through the language training?

[User] Yeah. Language and culture training.

[Assistant] And did you do some home stays as part of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] They made you go through the language training?

[User] Yeah. Language and culture training.

[Assistant] And did you do some home stays as part of that?

[User] Yes. Yeah. It was in Sawani. It was just, and the training was weird because I had gone through it before and, and being a volunteer and you kind of, even though it's a different country, you still, you know, there are things that, that, um. You know, you kind of have a feeling for or even though it's different. It was just weird. And here I was with new volunteers and they're all giddy with all of this and have all the questions and, and it was weird.

[Assistant] By time you're a veteran.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Language and culture training.

[Assistant] And did you do some home stays as part of that?

[User] Yes. Yeah. It was in Sawani. It was just, and the training was weird because I had gone through it before and, and being a volunteer and you kind of, even though it's a different country, you still, you know, there are things that, that, um. You know, you kind of have a feeling for or even though it's different. It was just weird. And here I was with new volunteers and they're all giddy with all of this and have all the questions and, and it was weird.

[Assistant] By time you're a veteran.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You're living in a village.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. It was in Sawani. It was just, and the training was weird because I had gone through it before and, and being a volunteer and you kind of, even though it's a different country, you still, you know, there are things that, that, um. You know, you kind of have a feeling for or even though it's different. It was just weird. And here I was with new volunteers and they're all giddy with all of this and have all the questions and, and it was weird.

[Assistant] By time you're a veteran.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You're living in a village.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] And these guys are coming straight from college.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You're living in a village.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] And these guys are coming straight from college.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] Probably a little bit hard to relate to it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] Probably a little bit hard to relate to it.

[User] It was very hard. And it was, it was hard because, um. You know, you're sitting and I didn't know whether to be quiet or interject on stuff. And it was just, I didn't know what to do because I didn't want to seem like this guy that's just, you know, pompous and just knows it all, or this guy just sitting back. Don't you have anything to say? It was, it was, it was hard. And so I think they put me in training for, for that time. And then I was at the village. I remember, remember the couple that I stayed with in the village, Kenny and Mary, really nice. And I remember one night, one night I was in my room. All these people started coming in, in the, in the village. The homes are pretty small.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
And when these people started coming in, mostly, mostly kids from the village. They're all sitting around and they started asking me questions about America. And it was, it was fun. It was, it was fun and funny. And the funniest part of the evening was, uh, was this one young lady. She was asking questions. She says, out of all of this, and I guess I guess we were there for a couple of hours, about an hour into it. And it was, it's funny now. At the time I kind of froze. But she said, she said, she said, Ben. And then everybody went quiet. Ben, are you a nigger? And everybody was silent.

And I was first, my first thing was is, you know, it's like get, you know, snap, get angry. And then I thought, wait a second. She doesn't know what that means. And, you know, you're in another country. And I don't even know what she's saying, you know, I don't know what her. So I said.

[Assistant] Didn't know how to respond.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I didn't know how to respond. So it took me, it took me about 15 or 20 seconds and everybody's just looking like, oh boy, is that good or bad, you know? And then I saw her reaction. She's like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that. And so I explained it. And, um, because of the British system and the American system, and I'm thinking, how does she know that to begin with? So we talked about it. And I explained to her, you know, literally what the word means. It doesn't reference any particular person. It's an angry, you know. And then I what the colloquial meaning of it is from an American standpoint. So I explained it out and they, and they understood it. They stood where it was coming from, from me, and what she had heard in a movie or something like that. And what, what the meaning was, what she was bringing to the question. So, um, but it was then we all laughed about it. But it was an interesting evening.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is, it's puzzling.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You wonder how I guess sometimes a bias does get exported.

[User] Well, yeah. And that's what my thought was, maybe it was a bias. But then again I, I think it was from a movie. I didn't ask her at the time, I think she got.

[Assistant] It was a term she had heard.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You wonder how I guess sometimes a bias does get exported.

[User] Well, yeah. And that's what my thought was, maybe it was a bias. But then again I, I think it was from a movie. I didn't ask her at the time, I think she got.

[Assistant] It was a term she had heard.

[User] It's term she had heard.

[Assistant] Wasn't sure whether.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's term she had heard.

[Assistant] Wasn't sure whether.

[User] Right. Because so since then I even asked my wife, I said, you know, is this something that, that, you know, from the, you guys are calling in pretty much an educational system British based and, um. And so we've talked about it and I'm not sure we've come to a resolution as to, to that. And so it's still been an ongoing discussion as to that young lady's question, how that came about here in the village, Sawani village, middle of Fiji.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So what was your, uh, your work and living situation in Fiji then was quite different than?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Because so since then I even asked my wife, I said, you know, is this something that, that, you know, from the, you guys are calling in pretty much an educational system British based and, um. And so we've talked about it and I'm not sure we've come to a resolution as to, to that. And so it's still been an ongoing discussion as to that young lady's question, how that came about here in the village, Sawani village, middle of Fiji.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So what was your, uh, your work and living situation in Fiji then was quite different than?

[User] Oh yeah.

[Assistant] What it was in Korea. But you completed your training there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a, it was a Fiji Nurses Association. They have a big building.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Then behind that building is what's called is the maid's chamber or the quarters, and it's just like a two room, two room building.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's got a bed on one side and just open on the other side and it's very, pretty small. It's probably 20 by 20. And nothing in there but a bed, bed and shelves. And every morning I had to, or when I would take a shower I had to leave that little place, go into the building, which is about a 20 foot walk into the main building. There's a cold shower.

[Assistant] So this was your quarters all the time that you were in Suva?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then behind that building is what's called is the maid's chamber or the quarters, and it's just like a two room, two room building.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It's got a bed on one side and just open on the other side and it's very, pretty small. It's probably 20 by 20. And nothing in there but a bed, bed and shelves. And every morning I had to, or when I would take a shower I had to leave that little place, go into the building, which is about a 20 foot walk into the main building. There's a cold shower.

[Assistant] So this was your quarters all the time that you were in Suva?

[User] Mm hmm. For the first year.

[Assistant] For the first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's got a bed on one side and just open on the other side and it's very, pretty small. It's probably 20 by 20. And nothing in there but a bed, bed and shelves. And every morning I had to, or when I would take a shower I had to leave that little place, go into the building, which is about a 20 foot walk into the main building. There's a cold shower.

[Assistant] So this was your quarters all the time that you were in Suva?

[User] Mm hmm. For the first year.

[Assistant] For the first year?

[User]
Yeah. First year. And, uh, let me back that up a little bit. The first, first, probably the first month I was in, I was in Tamavua. Yeah, there was a volunteer that had been there. He, I think it was him and he may have been there by himself, I can't remember. And he was, uh, this was in Tamavua and I was there for about a month. And he was from, he was from Central America originally and the Peace Corps. And I had to get out of there. This guy was an alcoholic. We had, we had a three, three bedroom flat. He had a room. I had a room. The other room was at least 20 cases of Fiji beer bottles, and he drank them all and kept coming in.

And that was just part of it. The other part was I'd walk in the house and, you know, hookers in the house. And I remember coming in one evening and there was this Indian lady from down, from Suva, and I knew she was one of the hookers. And this lady is like six foot, probably 250. And she is there. And, uh, I'm like, I'm done. It's like, what are you doing?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, well, Suva's quite a bit different than a village in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. For the first year.

[Assistant] For the first year?

[User]
Yeah. First year. And, uh, let me back that up a little bit. The first, first, probably the first month I was in, I was in Tamavua. Yeah, there was a volunteer that had been there. He, I think it was him and he may have been there by himself, I can't remember. And he was, uh, this was in Tamavua and I was there for about a month. And he was from, he was from Central America originally and the Peace Corps. And I had to get out of there. This guy was an alcoholic. We had, we had a three, three bedroom flat. He had a room. I had a room. The other room was at least 20 cases of Fiji beer bottles, and he drank them all and kept coming in.

And that was just part of it. The other part was I'd walk in the house and, you know, hookers in the house. And I remember coming in one evening and there was this Indian lady from down, from Suva, and I knew she was one of the hookers. And this lady is like six foot, probably 250. And she is there. And, uh, I'm like, I'm done. It's like, what are you doing?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, well, Suva's quite a bit different than a village in.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] A village in Korea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah. First year. And, uh, let me back that up a little bit. The first, first, probably the first month I was in, I was in Tamavua. Yeah, there was a volunteer that had been there. He, I think it was him and he may have been there by himself, I can't remember. And he was, uh, this was in Tamavua and I was there for about a month. And he was from, he was from Central America originally and the Peace Corps. And I had to get out of there. This guy was an alcoholic. We had, we had a three, three bedroom flat. He had a room. I had a room. The other room was at least 20 cases of Fiji beer bottles, and he drank them all and kept coming in.

And that was just part of it. The other part was I'd walk in the house and, you know, hookers in the house. And I remember coming in one evening and there was this Indian lady from down, from Suva, and I knew she was one of the hookers. And this lady is like six foot, probably 250. And she is there. And, uh, I'm like, I'm done. It's like, what are you doing?

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah, well, Suva's quite a bit different than a village in.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] A village in Korea.

[User] So I was, I was up there. Nice house. They were renting it and. And I told, I told my program director, I said, I got to go. I can't, I can't handle. I come home every evening and I just want to sack out and just chill. I ain't got all these people in my house. Some of them are hookers, some of them I don't even know who they are. Half of 'em are. He's drinking beer for dinner, and we. I'm done. That's when they moved me to the maid's quarters. I was there for about a year.

[Assistant] And that's pretty common for the houses in Fiji to have the bure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know what they were, but they were crawling all over me. I had to fumigate the place and it was filled, I mean, just roaches. Roaches all over the place. It was, it was a mess. I don't know how I stayed there a year. But, um, yes, so I ended up moving to Beach Road.

[Assistant] Big improvement. That's at Suva Point?

[User] Yeah. Yeah. This guy was an accountant with Price Waterhouse and, uh. So it was nice. We still, occasionally we still remain in contact. New Zealander. He's living in Australia. Yeah.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you met your wife in Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah. This guy was an accountant with Price Waterhouse and, uh. So it was nice. We still, occasionally we still remain in contact. New Zealander. He's living in Australia. Yeah.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you met your wife in Fiji?

[User] Yes. Yeah. Met at a Fiji party. Yeah. Yep. So, um, yeah, we went to a couple of Fiji parties. I think it was the second one. Met her there and started dating. And that was it.

[Assistant] All right. Well, I've kept you talking for quite a while here, and I know you're probably getting tired. Any, uh, any memorable experiences there or things that you might consider like a big accomplishment or memorable experiences while you're in Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So now here you are. It's almost, almost 40 years later.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And what do you think this volunteer experience is in these two different countries? Is that, has that had a big effect on the rest of your life?

[User]
Oh, absolutely. Sure. Well, you know, married to a Fijian so. But no, for work wise, I spent 24 years with the Department of Education, Maryland State Department of Education, working with the individuals with disabilities and all types of disabilities and reviewing, uh, medical documentation to determine eligibility for services. So. And then segued just two and a half years ago to the federal government, pretty much doing the same thing. But on a different, different scale. This is, uh, similar in respects of working with individuals with disabilities. But it's a slight twist to it. That was public. This is specifically federal employees.

So yeah, absolutely. It's, it did, I think it did certainly build a decent foundation for that, for experiencing the medical part of it and then taking off from there and doing these kinds of, kinds of what I'm doing now and enjoying it, actually. Yeah, very much.

[Assistant] All right. And you're thinking about moving back?