[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there were two previous groups that went in, all of us within about three weeks of each other. And one was, I believe, education and one may have been like public health or something such as that.

[Assistant] All of you were, Peace Corps in Ecuador was a relatively new thing, so just in a few months.

[User] Well, actually probably not even a few months, you know?

[Assistant] Oh, less. Where had the others trained, you remember?

[User] No, I don't know. We didn't have much contact with the other groups. Actually, I knew some of them in Guayaquil when I was located there but didn't have a lot of contact with them. You know, I was involved with the Ecuadorian extension staff and.

[Assistant] Well, let's wait.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually probably not even a few months, you know?

[Assistant] Oh, less. Where had the others trained, you remember?

[User] No, I don't know. We didn't have much contact with the other groups. Actually, I knew some of them in Guayaquil when I was located there but didn't have a lot of contact with them. You know, I was involved with the Ecuadorian extension staff and.

[Assistant] Well, let's wait.

[User] And you know, I didn't have a lot of contact with the other.

[Assistant] Big reception coming in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I don't know. We didn't have much contact with the other groups. Actually, I knew some of them in Guayaquil when I was located there but didn't have a lot of contact with them. You know, I was involved with the Ecuadorian extension staff and.

[Assistant] Well, let's wait.

[User] And you know, I didn't have a lot of contact with the other.

[Assistant] Big reception coming in.

[User] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Which must have made you feel good. Someone really wanted to have you there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you know, I didn't have a lot of contact with the other.

[Assistant] Big reception coming in.

[User] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Which must have made you feel good. Someone really wanted to have you there.

[User] Right. Somebody wanted us there. You know, here's this former president who was very esteemed and, you know, these officials.

[Assistant] And he wasn't going to throw you in a lake.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Which must have made you feel good. Someone really wanted to have you there.

[User] Right. Somebody wanted us there. You know, here's this former president who was very esteemed and, you know, these officials.

[Assistant] And he wasn't going to throw you in a lake.

[User] Yeah, I didn't have to do that, and I didn't have to swim anymore. I didn't have to get in a gunny sack.

[Assistant] What was your, do you recall what your feeling was? You know, you're in Ecuador and this is where you're going to be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You know, drop offs of thousands of feet and, you know, single lane wide and you met other vehicles and so on. Then when we started heading down to the coast, you know, this is the highway between the two main cities in the country. The capital and Guayaquil. Quito the capital, and Guayaquil. And they were working on the road between Quito and Santo Domingo. And it was just totally, you know, mud and dirt, you know. It wasn't the rainy season or it would have been really bad.

[Assistant] What were you traveling in?

[User] A bus. We were, they still had us all together in a bus. It was a bus of just us.

[Assistant] Had your Bozeman training been some acclimatizing to being at altitudes?

[User] Well, there may have been some of that with that hike, because Bozeman, you know, is at a high altitude. But then we were in Puerto Rico for a month or so, you know, if we'd acclimated, we de- acclimated during that time.

[Assistant] But if you're up in the Andes, you're up at ten thousand feet plus.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A bus. We were, they still had us all together in a bus. It was a bus of just us.

[Assistant] Had your Bozeman training been some acclimatizing to being at altitudes?

[User] Well, there may have been some of that with that hike, because Bozeman, you know, is at a high altitude. But then we were in Puerto Rico for a month or so, you know, if we'd acclimated, we de- acclimated during that time.

[Assistant] But if you're up in the Andes, you're up at ten thousand feet plus.

[User] Oh yeah. Quito is at ten thousand feet, the capital city, and then you go up from there.

[Assistant] You must have felt it when you arrived.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, there may have been some of that with that hike, because Bozeman, you know, is at a high altitude. But then we were in Puerto Rico for a month or so, you know, if we'd acclimated, we de- acclimated during that time.

[Assistant] But if you're up in the Andes, you're up at ten thousand feet plus.

[User] Oh yeah. Quito is at ten thousand feet, the capital city, and then you go up from there.

[Assistant] You must have felt it when you arrived.

[User] Um, well, you know, I was pretty young, so I don't remember really. I'm sure I would now. But I don't remember it that much. But anyway, then we stopped and we saw some projects in the Santo Domingo area, which is you're getting down into the banana region. We stopped at an Ecuadorian experiment station that's tied to.

[Assistant] The whole group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, well, you know, I was pretty young, so I don't remember really. I'm sure I would now. But I don't remember it that much. But anyway, then we stopped and we saw some projects in the Santo Domingo area, which is you're getting down into the banana region. We stopped at an Ecuadorian experiment station that's tied to.

[Assistant] The whole group?

[User] Yeah, the whole group still. That's tied to their Department of Agriculture, partway down where they did cacao research and maybe coffee. I think mostly cacao. And then we finally arrived in Guayaquil, and they put us up in a hotel. And the day we got there, the night we got there, was the Bay of Pigs invasion.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And there was a big demonstration in front of our hotel, and we all thought it was because of us. But they didn't really know we were there. Probably didn't even know what Peace Corps was. But it was scary.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Who was reassuring you, who was sort of leading you to say, don't worry, or this is what's going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, the whole group still. That's tied to their Department of Agriculture, partway down where they did cacao research and maybe coffee. I think mostly cacao. And then we finally arrived in Guayaquil, and they put us up in a hotel. And the day we got there, the night we got there, was the Bay of Pigs invasion.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And there was a big demonstration in front of our hotel, and we all thought it was because of us. But they didn't really know we were there. Probably didn't even know what Peace Corps was. But it was scary.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Who was reassuring you, who was sort of leading you to say, don't worry, or this is what's going on?

[User] Well, as I'm recalling, it was probably Don Shultz who was the head of the Heifer Project.

[Assistant] How did you hear about Bay of Pigs? Did Don tell you or you hear it on the radio and you read about it in the paper?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there was a big demonstration in front of our hotel, and we all thought it was because of us. But they didn't really know we were there. Probably didn't even know what Peace Corps was. But it was scary.

[Assistant] Oh yeah. Who was reassuring you, who was sort of leading you to say, don't worry, or this is what's going on?

[User] Well, as I'm recalling, it was probably Don Shultz who was the head of the Heifer Project.

[Assistant] How did you hear about Bay of Pigs? Did Don tell you or you hear it on the radio and you read about it in the paper?

[User] We probably read about it. And he may have told us. He may have told us and then, you know, we didn't. [tape break] OK, so we arrived in Guayaquil and we were in a hotel and there was a demonstration in front of the hotel, and it also happened that it was the day of the Bay of Pigs invasion. And we thought that the demonstration was a demonstration against Peace Corp. It was generally anti- American, but it was not against Peace Corps, as it turned out. I don't think they really knew we were there. And the director of Heifer Project for Ecuador was with us. I don't remember if there was anyone from Peace Corps per se, but I think he was with us during this whole time, and had had many, many years in Ecuador prior to this.

[Assistant] This is just an introductory tour.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as I'm recalling, it was probably Don Shultz who was the head of the Heifer Project.

[Assistant] How did you hear about Bay of Pigs? Did Don tell you or you hear it on the radio and you read about it in the paper?

[User] We probably read about it. And he may have told us. He may have told us and then, you know, we didn't. [tape break] OK, so we arrived in Guayaquil and we were in a hotel and there was a demonstration in front of the hotel, and it also happened that it was the day of the Bay of Pigs invasion. And we thought that the demonstration was a demonstration against Peace Corp. It was generally anti- American, but it was not against Peace Corps, as it turned out. I don't think they really knew we were there. And the director of Heifer Project for Ecuador was with us. I don't remember if there was anyone from Peace Corps per se, but I think he was with us during this whole time, and had had many, many years in Ecuador prior to this.

[Assistant] This is just an introductory tour.

[User] Yeah, this was an introductory tour, sort of an orientation, you know, a second orientation to agriculture in the country and the people.

[Assistant] And this is your second or third day in the country maybe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, this was an introductory tour, sort of an orientation, you know, a second orientation to agriculture in the country and the people.

[Assistant] And this is your second or third day in the country maybe?

[User] Oh no, we'd been in the Andes for probably a couple of weeks.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And then we'd been, it had taking us several days to come down by the time we went down through Santo Domingo and stopped at the experiment station. You know, it wasn't really that far, but you know, by the time you make the stops and you know, you do all the appropriate social protocol, you know, and all that kind of thing. And the roads aren't that good. It takes a while.

[Assistant] And these were really just take a look at kind of visits. There were no training sessions or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, we'd been in the Andes for probably a couple of weeks.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] And then we'd been, it had taking us several days to come down by the time we went down through Santo Domingo and stopped at the experiment station. You know, it wasn't really that far, but you know, by the time you make the stops and you know, you do all the appropriate social protocol, you know, and all that kind of thing. And the roads aren't that good. It takes a while.

[Assistant] And these were really just take a look at kind of visits. There were no training sessions or anything?

[User] No, no training sessions. No real training sessions.

[Assistant] And then what happened after Guayaquil?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then we'd been, it had taking us several days to come down by the time we went down through Santo Domingo and stopped at the experiment station. You know, it wasn't really that far, but you know, by the time you make the stops and you know, you do all the appropriate social protocol, you know, and all that kind of thing. And the roads aren't that good. It takes a while.

[Assistant] And these were really just take a look at kind of visits. There were no training sessions or anything?

[User] No, no training sessions. No real training sessions.

[Assistant] And then what happened after Guayaquil?

[User] Well, that was then where we were dispersed to our sites. And you know, people were, I guess, given their final assignment. Maybe that was where we were given our final assignment. And you caught a bus and you know, you went there. Except our final assignment was Guayaquil initially. My first, our first assignment was in the extension office in Guayas province, which was in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Did Heifer have an office in Guayaquil?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no training sessions. No real training sessions.

[Assistant] And then what happened after Guayaquil?

[User] Well, that was then where we were dispersed to our sites. And you know, people were, I guess, given their final assignment. Maybe that was where we were given our final assignment. And you caught a bus and you know, you went there. Except our final assignment was Guayaquil initially. My first, our first assignment was in the extension office in Guayas province, which was in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Did Heifer have an office in Guayaquil?

[User] No, no, we were assigned to the Ecuadorian extension agents in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Did Bob take you and introduce you to that person?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, we were assigned to the Ecuadorian extension agents in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Did Bob take you and introduce you to that person?

[User] Don.

[Assistant] Don, sorry.

[User] I don't I don't remember. I'm not really sure. Um, we may have, but I don't really remember.

[Assistant] Do you remember? Yeah, go ahead.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Don.

[Assistant] Don, sorry.

[User] I don't I don't remember. I'm not really sure. Um, we may have, but I don't really remember.

[Assistant] Do you remember? Yeah, go ahead.

[User] Anyway, the extension offices were all located in the capitals of each province. So Guayas province, Guayaquil was the capital, and so it was the extension office for the whole area.

[Assistant] Tell me about your first week on your own now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't I don't remember. I'm not really sure. Um, we may have, but I don't really remember.

[Assistant] Do you remember? Yeah, go ahead.

[User] Anyway, the extension offices were all located in the capitals of each province. So Guayas province, Guayaquil was the capital, and so it was the extension office for the whole area.

[Assistant] Tell me about your first week on your own now.

[User] Well, you know, we stayed initially. We moved out of the nicer hotel into a boarding house while we tried to find another place to live. And so we stayed in this boarding house for a while. I don't know, maybe a week or more.

[Assistant] What was the money arrangement?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anyway, the extension offices were all located in the capitals of each province. So Guayas province, Guayaquil was the capital, and so it was the extension office for the whole area.

[Assistant] Tell me about your first week on your own now.

[User] Well, you know, we stayed initially. We moved out of the nicer hotel into a boarding house while we tried to find another place to live. And so we stayed in this boarding house for a while. I don't know, maybe a week or more.

[Assistant] What was the money arrangement?

[User] Well, they gave you, you had a living allowance. It was about a hundred dollars a month, which was, you know, really fairly good. I mean, it was somewhat comparable to the Ecuadorean extension agents, but maybe slightly better.

[Assistant] Now did you guys get two hundred?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, we stayed initially. We moved out of the nicer hotel into a boarding house while we tried to find another place to live. And so we stayed in this boarding house for a while. I don't know, maybe a week or more.

[Assistant] What was the money arrangement?

[User] Well, they gave you, you had a living allowance. It was about a hundred dollars a month, which was, you know, really fairly good. I mean, it was somewhat comparable to the Ecuadorean extension agents, but maybe slightly better.

[Assistant] Now did you guys get two hundred?

[User] Yeah, we got two hundred.

[Assistant] And did they simply give you a bundle of money?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they gave you, you had a living allowance. It was about a hundred dollars a month, which was, you know, really fairly good. I mean, it was somewhat comparable to the Ecuadorean extension agents, but maybe slightly better.

[Assistant] Now did you guys get two hundred?

[User] Yeah, we got two hundred.

[Assistant] And did they simply give you a bundle of money?

[User] Well, almost. We went to a certain bank in Guayaquil each month to pick it up in cash. People didn't operate with checkbooks and so on there. You couldn't really write checks in places, and so, you know, you had to get it in cash. And then, you know, you've got this big bunch of cash that you're hoping doesn't get stolen. And so that's how we operated.

[Assistant] And how long are we at the boarding house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we got two hundred.

[Assistant] And did they simply give you a bundle of money?

[User] Well, almost. We went to a certain bank in Guayaquil each month to pick it up in cash. People didn't operate with checkbooks and so on there. You couldn't really write checks in places, and so, you know, you had to get it in cash. And then, you know, you've got this big bunch of cash that you're hoping doesn't get stolen. And so that's how we operated.

[Assistant] And how long are we at the boarding house?

[User] Oh, I'd say a week or two, a couple of weeks, probably.

[Assistant] What were you doing during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it wasn't. So we had to sort of gather up furniture and everything. I mean, that was the one thing that Peace Corps didn't do that was, you know, really hard. That came as a big surprise because I mean, it didn't even have a stove. So one of the first things we had to get was a mattress and a kerosene stove. And so, you know, it took us a while to get things like a table and chairs and.

[Assistant] Did they give you a settling in allowance?

[User] It was, no, it was just a monthly living allowance, you sort of had to get it out of.

[Assistant] You didn't get a special?

[User]
You didn't get a, no. Because a lot of them, a lot of the people in our group were teaching at. Some of them, well, a couple of them were teaching at agricultural schools and then some of them were assigned to extension offices. And the single people, a lot of them were living with families. So I think that, you know, they hadn't really thought about married couples that much. I think it was the married couples that had this kind of problem. Excuse me. [coughs]

We were talking about settling in and we sort of gradually acquired, you know, things to function. And anyway, meanwhile, then the extension agents also covered little towns. The home economist did quite a few groups right there in the city of Guayaquil, but she also went out to other towns with both 4-F clubs, which is Ecuador's equivalent of 4-H, and then training for women, women's groups. And so we started going out with various people, not just the ag agent, but some of the specialists.

[Assistant] What would bring a group of Ecuadorians together? Your early work you were doing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, some of the work was done one-on-one and then some of it was done in groups and the ag work was done more one-on-one, at least initially. And the more of home ec and the 4-H groups in some places, there were some semi organized groups. They would, um, we would go in and contact a lot of times the teacher in the school. Yeah. And it wasn't like the 4-H groups here in the States where you have this system of a county staff training the volunteers and the volunteers doing it. It was more that the local person who you convinced or decided that, you know, this was a good thing for kids to do, would be the one who would sort of round up people, convene them, remind them, you know, provide the place, either the school or the home or whatever. And then you would come in with the activities and the training or whatever it was that you were going to do that day for them. And so with the kids, you know, you work through these local contacts, that you would convince and then would convene.

[Assistant] Right. All through this period, you're working with a counterpart. You're not on your own?

[User] Initially. Actually, not for very long. Fairly soon, we were out on our own taking, you know, busses for hours out here and there.

[Assistant] And what did all this have to do with Heifer, the Heifer Project?

[User] Well, a lot of what, some of what we were doing, you know, Heifer does a lot of animal work, but Heifer also, you know, was very involved with the Ecuadorian extension service. And so the programs of the Ecuadorian extension service, the 4-H club, the 4-F club there, is one of their programs and you know, it may have animal aspects. It may have crop aspects, it may have nutrition aspects, you know, food and nutrition, sewing and the home ec, you know, hygiene.

[Assistant] So the overall goal of the Heifer Project is to help with development?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Initially. Actually, not for very long. Fairly soon, we were out on our own taking, you know, busses for hours out here and there.

[Assistant] And what did all this have to do with Heifer, the Heifer Project?

[User] Well, a lot of what, some of what we were doing, you know, Heifer does a lot of animal work, but Heifer also, you know, was very involved with the Ecuadorian extension service. And so the programs of the Ecuadorian extension service, the 4-H club, the 4-F club there, is one of their programs and you know, it may have animal aspects. It may have crop aspects, it may have nutrition aspects, you know, food and nutrition, sewing and the home ec, you know, hygiene.

[Assistant] So the overall goal of the Heifer Project is to help with development?

[User] The overall goal of Heifer was to, you know, upgrade the nutrition and diet of the people, originally through animals, but also through sanitation with the extensions. But you know, their real goal is through, you know, upgrading the diet through animal production. But the home economics plays into that. But initially, yes, I always went out with someone. But it wasn't all that long that, you know, I would be taking a bus out by myself. Or Dave and I would be taking one out and maybe I would be meeting with the girls while he would be meeting with the boys. Or I would be meeting with women while he was making, you know, individual visits with farmers.

[Assistant] Were you able to set up those meetings at a distance so that when you went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. Sometimes I went out with him, sometimes I went out with Juana Mendoza, the home economist. And probably within the, you know, within five or six months, I was at times going out by myself, if not sooner. Uh huh.

[Assistant] And it was considered proper for a woman alone to go out and do the extension work both either an American or an Ecuadorian?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] How is your Spanish after five months?

[User] Well, it was improving. I still, you know, I was still struggling at that time. I would get words mixed up and, you know, I would have to ask. I was certainly good enough, though, that I could, you know, explain things with lots of words. Explain a simple thing like if I didn't know. You know, you just explain it with more words like, well, we've got this glass here, you know, say I couldn't remember the word glass, which of course I could, because that's a very simple word.

[Assistant] But the thing with the water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] How is your Spanish after five months?

[User] Well, it was improving. I still, you know, I was still struggling at that time. I would get words mixed up and, you know, I would have to ask. I was certainly good enough, though, that I could, you know, explain things with lots of words. Explain a simple thing like if I didn't know. You know, you just explain it with more words like, well, we've got this glass here, you know, say I couldn't remember the word glass, which of course I could, because that's a very simple word.

[Assistant] But the thing with the water?

[User] The thing, yeah, that you drink from, you know, that kind of thing. So I was, you know, I would still do some of that at that point in time.

[Assistant] Did that amuse your audiences?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was improving. I still, you know, I was still struggling at that time. I would get words mixed up and, you know, I would have to ask. I was certainly good enough, though, that I could, you know, explain things with lots of words. Explain a simple thing like if I didn't know. You know, you just explain it with more words like, well, we've got this glass here, you know, say I couldn't remember the word glass, which of course I could, because that's a very simple word.

[Assistant] But the thing with the water?

[User] The thing, yeah, that you drink from, you know, that kind of thing. So I was, you know, I would still do some of that at that point in time.

[Assistant] Did that amuse your audiences?

[User] Oh, yeah, at times they did. And particularly at times I would get two very similar words mixed up. Um, cansada and casada. Casada was married and cansada was tired. And I would, when I was tired, I would get those two words mixed up and they would laugh.

[Assistant] Was there any point in the first couple of months where you thought to yourself, oh my God, we're here, you know, we're Peace Corps volunteers, it's happening, it's what I wanted. Was there any feeling of that sort?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The thing, yeah, that you drink from, you know, that kind of thing. So I was, you know, I would still do some of that at that point in time.

[Assistant] Did that amuse your audiences?

[User] Oh, yeah, at times they did. And particularly at times I would get two very similar words mixed up. Um, cansada and casada. Casada was married and cansada was tired. And I would, when I was tired, I would get those two words mixed up and they would laugh.

[Assistant] Was there any point in the first couple of months where you thought to yourself, oh my God, we're here, you know, we're Peace Corps volunteers, it's happening, it's what I wanted. Was there any feeling of that sort?

[User] Well, you know, of course, in the beginning there still the excitement for the first few months. And then, you know, I still, even now, I talk with a lot of the students that I know who go into Peace Corps, I stay in touch with them when they go and I always write them a long letter about the six month point. Now an email, but um yeah, I hit that slump probably at about six months. Like, I think that was where I, you know, I went from being, you know, fascinated with the differences to disillusion with some things. Like, you know, how can I ever accomplish anything here? The sanitation problems, you know, are so bad. You know, people don't understand that to get ahead, you have to help yourself. And some of those kinds of things, like the volunteer ethic that we were talking about, that, you know, that wasn't a part of the culture, and I'm not sure I fully understood the whole thing then. But then I did find some people who were willing to do things to help their own communities later.

[Assistant] Generally speaking, how was your and Dave's health during the first six months or so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, of course, in the beginning there still the excitement for the first few months. And then, you know, I still, even now, I talk with a lot of the students that I know who go into Peace Corps, I stay in touch with them when they go and I always write them a long letter about the six month point. Now an email, but um yeah, I hit that slump probably at about six months. Like, I think that was where I, you know, I went from being, you know, fascinated with the differences to disillusion with some things. Like, you know, how can I ever accomplish anything here? The sanitation problems, you know, are so bad. You know, people don't understand that to get ahead, you have to help yourself. And some of those kinds of things, like the volunteer ethic that we were talking about, that, you know, that wasn't a part of the culture, and I'm not sure I fully understood the whole thing then. But then I did find some people who were willing to do things to help their own communities later.

[Assistant] Generally speaking, how was your and Dave's health during the first six months or so?

[User] Oh, well, we did very well. Actually, I got food poisoning in Puerto Rico in the training there when I was there out in the town and then probably at about the six month, maybe about, no. Actually, it was probably longer than that. Maybe about six or eight months, I had one bout with food poisoning in Guayaquil. I got too confident and I was eating lots of street food. And as a lot of Peace Corps volunteers do. And I was very, very sick and ended up. This was why I was still living, we were still living in Guayaquil, and I ended up in the Peace Corps doctor's sick room in his house in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Oh, there was a Peace Corps doctor in Guayaquil?

[User] There was a doctor in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Do you remember his name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a doctor in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Do you remember his name?

[User]
No, I don't. But I remember that another Peace Corps volunteer and Dave and I were supposed to go up to Esmeraldas to take some things up to a Peace Corps volunteer up there. Someone who'd worked for Heifer, a Peace Corps Heifer, had left the country. And actually, Dave and I had been given his vehicle so that we could get around to these towns that were so spread out a lot easier, because we were spending lots and lots of time on busses. And so we were supposed, the three of us were supposed to take some things. So I had been out in the sugarcane plantation area where, you know, I'd take the bus down to the harbor of the Guayas River, take a launch across the river, you know, catch the bus on the rest of the way. And I missed the connection. And so I had some questionable street food and I got really sick when I went out in the sugarcane plantation and I did usually spend the night with the school teacher out there.

Anyway, I, you know, just sort of kept getting worse, and she finally decided that I'd better get back to Guayaquil, but the question was how I was going to get back. And so there was an engineer out there at the plantation with a jeep, and he brought me back actually all the way to my house. And then we were supposed to leave like the next day and I was just sicker and sicker. So I ended up spending the weekend in the Peace Corps doctor's sick room and the others went on to Esmeraldas, and I never did get to Esmeraldes.

[Assistant] Now the vehicle that you and Dave sort of had access to was a Jeep.

[User] Well, it was a Willis wagon.

[Assistant] And provided by Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, I don't. But I remember that another Peace Corps volunteer and Dave and I were supposed to go up to Esmeraldas to take some things up to a Peace Corps volunteer up there. Someone who'd worked for Heifer, a Peace Corps Heifer, had left the country. And actually, Dave and I had been given his vehicle so that we could get around to these towns that were so spread out a lot easier, because we were spending lots and lots of time on busses. And so we were supposed, the three of us were supposed to take some things. So I had been out in the sugarcane plantation area where, you know, I'd take the bus down to the harbor of the Guayas River, take a launch across the river, you know, catch the bus on the rest of the way. And I missed the connection. And so I had some questionable street food and I got really sick when I went out in the sugarcane plantation and I did usually spend the night with the school teacher out there.

Anyway, I, you know, just sort of kept getting worse, and she finally decided that I'd better get back to Guayaquil, but the question was how I was going to get back. And so there was an engineer out there at the plantation with a jeep, and he brought me back actually all the way to my house. And then we were supposed to leave like the next day and I was just sicker and sicker. So I ended up spending the weekend in the Peace Corps doctor's sick room and the others went on to Esmeraldas, and I never did get to Esmeraldes.

[Assistant] Now the vehicle that you and Dave sort of had access to was a Jeep.

[User] Well, it was a Willis wagon.

[Assistant] And provided by Peace Corps?

[User] By Peace Corps.

[Assistant] For volunteers who?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a Willis wagon.

[Assistant] And provided by Peace Corps?

[User] By Peace Corps.

[Assistant] For volunteers who?

[User] Well, it was actually originally for this Heifer Project employee who was assigned to the coast. And Don was in the mountains, but this guy had had international experience in other places, not Latin America. And his family was not happy there and they left. So when he left, a decision was made not to replace the position. And anyway, they decided that the best thing to do with the vehicle was to let us use it to get around because Guayas is a huge province and we were covering, trying to cover some pretty big area. And at that point, by that point, we were traveling on our own all the time by bus.

[Assistant] On a personal matter, you can answer or not. Had Peace Corps said anything about the desirability of not getting pregnant? Was there any official or informal position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By Peace Corps.

[Assistant] For volunteers who?

[User] Well, it was actually originally for this Heifer Project employee who was assigned to the coast. And Don was in the mountains, but this guy had had international experience in other places, not Latin America. And his family was not happy there and they left. So when he left, a decision was made not to replace the position. And anyway, they decided that the best thing to do with the vehicle was to let us use it to get around because Guayas is a huge province and we were covering, trying to cover some pretty big area. And at that point, by that point, we were traveling on our own all the time by bus.

[Assistant] On a personal matter, you can answer or not. Had Peace Corps said anything about the desirability of not getting pregnant? Was there any official or informal position?

[User] Uh. I don't think that that was really discussed very much. You know, I think that actually there were some Peace Corps babies in our group.

[Assistant] So in fact, I mean, you weren't told.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was actually originally for this Heifer Project employee who was assigned to the coast. And Don was in the mountains, but this guy had had international experience in other places, not Latin America. And his family was not happy there and they left. So when he left, a decision was made not to replace the position. And anyway, they decided that the best thing to do with the vehicle was to let us use it to get around because Guayas is a huge province and we were covering, trying to cover some pretty big area. And at that point, by that point, we were traveling on our own all the time by bus.

[Assistant] On a personal matter, you can answer or not. Had Peace Corps said anything about the desirability of not getting pregnant? Was there any official or informal position?

[User] Uh. I don't think that that was really discussed very much. You know, I think that actually there were some Peace Corps babies in our group.

[Assistant] So in fact, I mean, you weren't told.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or advised not to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh. I don't think that that was really discussed very much. You know, I think that actually there were some Peace Corps babies in our group.

[Assistant] So in fact, I mean, you weren't told.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or advised not to.

[User] No. No. But you know, we didn't. But the one couple that was married when they went into the Peace Corps had a baby. And then there were a couple of marriages, you know, fairly early on and there were a couple of them had babies.

[Assistant] And they stayed on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or advised not to.

[User] No. No. But you know, we didn't. But the one couple that was married when they went into the Peace Corps had a baby. And then there were a couple of marriages, you know, fairly early on and there were a couple of them had babies.

[Assistant] And they stayed on.

[User] Yeah, they stayed on. Yeah. Now this was before I think our Peace Corps was looking at a lot of things as they occurred and, you know, including the vehicle issue. I think that, you know, they didn't. The original plan was not to give Peace Corps volunteers vehicles. And then, you know, this happened and they gave us one. And then of course, later the policies all changed.

[Assistant] Being in Guayaquil and having a jeep, did outlying volunteers tend to weekend at your place or head into the? Or wasn't it that difficult?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At that point, it hadn't been that long because we actually arrived in country in September. And then I think at our sites. Let's see, we spent June, July, I think early August we left. In early August, we left Bozeman and we spent a month in Puerto Rico and we toured around, I think we got to our sites about the 1st of October. So we'd only been there October, November, and part of December.

[Assistant] During the first six months, eight months, did you have any contact with Peace Corps staff?

[User] Um, the regional office was in Guayaquil, James Pines, and yeah, we were in and out of there periodically. He never came to visit us, but, you know, then we were right there in Guayaquil. I don't know about the other volunteers who were out of Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Was it a supportive relationship?

[User] Oh yes, it was very. He was very helpful and very.

[Assistant] And how did his office stand in relation to the Heifer office? Who is looking at whom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, the regional office was in Guayaquil, James Pines, and yeah, we were in and out of there periodically. He never came to visit us, but, you know, then we were right there in Guayaquil. I don't know about the other volunteers who were out of Guayaquil.

[Assistant] Was it a supportive relationship?

[User] Oh yes, it was very. He was very helpful and very.

[Assistant] And how did his office stand in relation to the Heifer office? Who is looking at whom?

[User] Um, we didn't, we didn't see anybody a whole lot, if you really want to know.

[Assistant] Well, that's fine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, it was very. He was very helpful and very.

[Assistant] And how did his office stand in relation to the Heifer office? Who is looking at whom?

[User] Um, we didn't, we didn't see anybody a whole lot, if you really want to know.

[Assistant] Well, that's fine.

[User] It was sort of like, go do this, go do something useful. But they were there, you know, to support us. Like if our money didn't come in on time at the bank. You know, if there were problems. When they had the revolution and threw out the president, I can't remember exactly when that was. That was after we were out in Santa Elena in the western part of the province. But when they had the revolution, my grandmother, who did not have a lot of schooling, wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver that it wasn't safe there and that you should send me home. And I didn't know anything about this. And I went into the Peace Corps office one day, and you know, by then, it had filtered from Sargent Shriver down to the director for Latin America, down to the director for Ecuador, down to the director for the coast of Ecuador. And so he says, here is something I want to show you and talk with you about. You need to write to your grandmother if you haven't done it recently.

[Assistant] Uh, how long we you in Guayaquil?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, we didn't, we didn't see anybody a whole lot, if you really want to know.

[Assistant] Well, that's fine.

[User] It was sort of like, go do this, go do something useful. But they were there, you know, to support us. Like if our money didn't come in on time at the bank. You know, if there were problems. When they had the revolution and threw out the president, I can't remember exactly when that was. That was after we were out in Santa Elena in the western part of the province. But when they had the revolution, my grandmother, who did not have a lot of schooling, wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver that it wasn't safe there and that you should send me home. And I didn't know anything about this. And I went into the Peace Corps office one day, and you know, by then, it had filtered from Sargent Shriver down to the director for Latin America, down to the director for Ecuador, down to the director for the coast of Ecuador. And so he says, here is something I want to show you and talk with you about. You need to write to your grandmother if you haven't done it recently.

[Assistant] Uh, how long we you in Guayaquil?

[User] About a year. Maybe not quite. I think we were there from like October until August. And meanwhile, we got a good program going with people who seemed just super receptive out in the western part of the province in the Santa Elena Peninsula.

[Assistant] Was that part of your responsibility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was sort of like, go do this, go do something useful. But they were there, you know, to support us. Like if our money didn't come in on time at the bank. You know, if there were problems. When they had the revolution and threw out the president, I can't remember exactly when that was. That was after we were out in Santa Elena in the western part of the province. But when they had the revolution, my grandmother, who did not have a lot of schooling, wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver that it wasn't safe there and that you should send me home. And I didn't know anything about this. And I went into the Peace Corps office one day, and you know, by then, it had filtered from Sargent Shriver down to the director for Latin America, down to the director for Ecuador, down to the director for the coast of Ecuador. And so he says, here is something I want to show you and talk with you about. You need to write to your grandmother if you haven't done it recently.

[Assistant] Uh, how long we you in Guayaquil?

[User] About a year. Maybe not quite. I think we were there from like October until August. And meanwhile, we got a good program going with people who seemed just super receptive out in the western part of the province in the Santa Elena Peninsula.

[Assistant] Was that part of your responsibility?

[User] Yes. Uh huh. And that was one of the areas that we had been taken very early on by an Ecuadorian poultry specialist in the extension service. And he had done some work out there and had. Um, anyway, he took us out there and introduced us to people out there, and people were very receptive and they took us and introduced us to people in other surrounding little towns actually.

[Assistant] And this is kind of an area to itself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] About a year. Maybe not quite. I think we were there from like October until August. And meanwhile, we got a good program going with people who seemed just super receptive out in the western part of the province in the Santa Elena Peninsula.

[Assistant] Was that part of your responsibility?

[User] Yes. Uh huh. And that was one of the areas that we had been taken very early on by an Ecuadorian poultry specialist in the extension service. And he had done some work out there and had. Um, anyway, he took us out there and introduced us to people out there, and people were very receptive and they took us and introduced us to people in other surrounding little towns actually.

[Assistant] And this is kind of an area to itself?

[User] No, it's actually.

[Assistant] How far is it from Guayaquil?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Uh huh. And that was one of the areas that we had been taken very early on by an Ecuadorian poultry specialist in the extension service. And he had done some work out there and had. Um, anyway, he took us out there and introduced us to people out there, and people were very receptive and they took us and introduced us to people in other surrounding little towns actually.

[Assistant] And this is kind of an area to itself?

[User] No, it's actually.

[Assistant] How far is it from Guayaquil?

[User] It was about four hours by bus. And it was a nice straight road that you could travel at, you know, like a hundred kilometers an hour, you know, paved. Anyway, we had people who had been really receptive out there and they talked with us a little bit like, well, why can't you come out? Why can't you be out here more? And so one day we went into the Peace Corps office and James Pine said, I had a visit from some people from Santa Elena who came in. Really? And, you know, like, oh dear, what did I do? What did we do wrong? And he said, um, well, they wanted to know if you could come to, if you can move to Santa Elena. And it's sort of like, oh really, wow, yes! He goes, you really want to go there? And we said, yes, we did. And they did probably the unthinkable. We did not have a counterpart in Santa Elena. We were on our own.

[Assistant] Which is a gesture of trust on someone's part.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, it's actually.

[Assistant] How far is it from Guayaquil?

[User] It was about four hours by bus. And it was a nice straight road that you could travel at, you know, like a hundred kilometers an hour, you know, paved. Anyway, we had people who had been really receptive out there and they talked with us a little bit like, well, why can't you come out? Why can't you be out here more? And so one day we went into the Peace Corps office and James Pine said, I had a visit from some people from Santa Elena who came in. Really? And, you know, like, oh dear, what did I do? What did we do wrong? And he said, um, well, they wanted to know if you could come to, if you can move to Santa Elena. And it's sort of like, oh really, wow, yes! He goes, you really want to go there? And we said, yes, we did. And they did probably the unthinkable. We did not have a counterpart in Santa Elena. We were on our own.

[Assistant] Which is a gesture of trust on someone's part.

[User] Right. I mean, we were still, we worked through the Ecuadorean extension service. We worked on a big poultry project and some other things. And you know, we worked with the poultry specialists and we worked with the diagnostic labs when we'd have a disease outbreak and so on. But yeah, it was, we did not have a local counterpart per se.

[Assistant] And that was all back in Guayaquil?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was about four hours by bus. And it was a nice straight road that you could travel at, you know, like a hundred kilometers an hour, you know, paved. Anyway, we had people who had been really receptive out there and they talked with us a little bit like, well, why can't you come out? Why can't you be out here more? And so one day we went into the Peace Corps office and James Pine said, I had a visit from some people from Santa Elena who came in. Really? And, you know, like, oh dear, what did I do? What did we do wrong? And he said, um, well, they wanted to know if you could come to, if you can move to Santa Elena. And it's sort of like, oh really, wow, yes! He goes, you really want to go there? And we said, yes, we did. And they did probably the unthinkable. We did not have a counterpart in Santa Elena. We were on our own.

[Assistant] Which is a gesture of trust on someone's part.

[User] Right. I mean, we were still, we worked through the Ecuadorean extension service. We worked on a big poultry project and some other things. And you know, we worked with the poultry specialists and we worked with the diagnostic labs when we'd have a disease outbreak and so on. But yeah, it was, we did not have a local counterpart per se.

[Assistant] And that was all back in Guayaquil?

[User] That was all in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] But then you would come from Santa Elena and into Guayaquil and work directly with whatever agency?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I mean, we were still, we worked through the Ecuadorean extension service. We worked on a big poultry project and some other things. And you know, we worked with the poultry specialists and we worked with the diagnostic labs when we'd have a disease outbreak and so on. But yeah, it was, we did not have a local counterpart per se.

[Assistant] And that was all back in Guayaquil?

[User] That was all in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] But then you would come from Santa Elena and into Guayaquil and work directly with whatever agency?

[User] Yeah. And probably the closest to a counterpart was this sort of local community leader that people sort of looked up to who had this little room under his house that said Agricultural Center. But nothing was going on there, until we got there, but then stuff started going on, you know, he let us use that sort of as a base of operations.

[Assistant] Where did you then stand in relation to Heifer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was all in Guayaquil.

[Assistant] But then you would come from Santa Elena and into Guayaquil and work directly with whatever agency?

[User] Yeah. And probably the closest to a counterpart was this sort of local community leader that people sort of looked up to who had this little room under his house that said Agricultural Center. But nothing was going on there, until we got there, but then stuff started going on, you know, he let us use that sort of as a base of operations.

[Assistant] Where did you then stand in relation to Heifer?

[User] We were still working with Heifer. I mean, Heifer and Peace Corps jointly decided that, yeah, we could go to Santa Elena. So we went out to Santa Elena. And by then, Dave primarily had started to work on a big. We'd both been doing some poultry work. You know, we'd already placed a Heifer Project animal out there when we had to take it out of this other town. Anyway, we'd started working in Santa Elena, had a couple of things going. I had a girls 4-H club, 4-F club going. He had a boys 4-F club going. I had the beginnings of one going, we each did, in another little town south of there. And part of the sales pitch was there other little towns that we could, you know, do things in surrounding, particularly with the Willis wagon. And so we, you know, that helped because even there.

[Assistant] So part of the deal in moving out there was you kept?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were still working with Heifer. I mean, Heifer and Peace Corps jointly decided that, yeah, we could go to Santa Elena. So we went out to Santa Elena. And by then, Dave primarily had started to work on a big. We'd both been doing some poultry work. You know, we'd already placed a Heifer Project animal out there when we had to take it out of this other town. Anyway, we'd started working in Santa Elena, had a couple of things going. I had a girls 4-H club, 4-F club going. He had a boys 4-F club going. I had the beginnings of one going, we each did, in another little town south of there. And part of the sales pitch was there other little towns that we could, you know, do things in surrounding, particularly with the Willis wagon. And so we, you know, that helped because even there.

[Assistant] So part of the deal in moving out there was you kept?

[User] Yeah, we kept that.

[Assistant] Oh great.

[User] And we'd go up the coast to Manglar Alto where this was a desert area. So nothing grew there. I mean, there weren't even cacti there. Every drop of water was trucked in from 25 kilometers east from a spring where it was slightly saline. It was very expensive and you boiled it not only make it safe, but out of the water salt settle out. And but up the coast a little ways, and this was right on the coast, I was two kilometers from the Pacific Ocean. And some people probably would think, but I hardly ever got to the beach, you know, like two or three times in a year.

[Assistant] But the area you were in had no water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we kept that.

[Assistant] Oh great.

[User] And we'd go up the coast to Manglar Alto where this was a desert area. So nothing grew there. I mean, there weren't even cacti there. Every drop of water was trucked in from 25 kilometers east from a spring where it was slightly saline. It was very expensive and you boiled it not only make it safe, but out of the water salt settle out. And but up the coast a little ways, and this was right on the coast, I was two kilometers from the Pacific Ocean. And some people probably would think, but I hardly ever got to the beach, you know, like two or three times in a year.

[Assistant] But the area you were in had no water?

[User] No water.

[Assistant] How did people live?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we'd go up the coast to Manglar Alto where this was a desert area. So nothing grew there. I mean, there weren't even cacti there. Every drop of water was trucked in from 25 kilometers east from a spring where it was slightly saline. It was very expensive and you boiled it not only make it safe, but out of the water salt settle out. And but up the coast a little ways, and this was right on the coast, I was two kilometers from the Pacific Ocean. And some people probably would think, but I hardly ever got to the beach, you know, like two or three times in a year.

[Assistant] But the area you were in had no water?

[User] No water.

[Assistant] How did people live?

[User] Well, it all came in from, you know, in this truck and it's like an old farm tank truck is really what it was. We used to haul water for our livestock on the farm and you'd buy it in these cans and they'd fill up your barrels depending on how much you could afford or how much supply they had and how many trips they were making that day.

[Assistant] How about keeping chickens alive?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No water.

[Assistant] How did people live?

[User] Well, it all came in from, you know, in this truck and it's like an old farm tank truck is really what it was. We used to haul water for our livestock on the farm and you'd buy it in these cans and they'd fill up your barrels depending on how much you could afford or how much supply they had and how many trips they were making that day.

[Assistant] How about keeping chickens alive?

[User] Well, chickens were very profitable and it was a good area to grow them in. And both eggs and poultry meat were very, very expensive. So you could haul in all the feed and all the water and still make a good profit.

[Assistant] And most of that, how was that sold?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it all came in from, you know, in this truck and it's like an old farm tank truck is really what it was. We used to haul water for our livestock on the farm and you'd buy it in these cans and they'd fill up your barrels depending on how much you could afford or how much supply they had and how many trips they were making that day.

[Assistant] How about keeping chickens alive?

[User] Well, chickens were very profitable and it was a good area to grow them in. And both eggs and poultry meat were very, very expensive. So you could haul in all the feed and all the water and still make a good profit.

[Assistant] And most of that, how was that sold?

[User] How was it, how was it sold?

[Assistant] In Guayaquil and through a co-op?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] How was it, how was it sold?

[Assistant] In Guayaquil and through a co-op?

[User] The eggs were sold, it was a co-op. The eggs were sold locally and the meat was sold, actually initially while we were there, mostly locally. There was a big British oil camp nearby.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User]
And there was also a small Ecuadorian oil camp. And some people got their water from relatives who worked out the British oil camp. They had a distillation system but. [tape break]

Fairly well, but I couldn't carry on any deep conversation. Probably intellectual conversations, I couldn't probably, you know, do a technical lecture or some of the kinds of things that I used to be able to do.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. So let me say thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] First of all I’d like to talk to you about your background a little bit. If you could share some of the details about your background and how you first became interested in aeronautical research.

[User] I was a World War II baby, in that era. My father was a model builder of sorts. So I got building model airplanes rather young, and that was my introduction to aeronautics in essence. Then I went through high school in Miami, Florida. I went to the University of Miami [Coral Gables, Florida]. At the time I decided that I wanted to be an architect, because the girl I was dating, her father was an architect and he worked at home. Big influence. So I got to the university the first year, and took up drawing classes, going there all hours of the day and night for a measly one credit or two credits. I’m thinking I’m not sure I want to do this. That’s when I transferred to aeronautics—to mechanical engineering in essence. They didn’t have an aeronautical school at the time. But they did what they called an aero option, and you could take two aerodynamics classes in your senior year. That gave you the aero option in essence.\n\n That was my background as far as education is concerned. I did take advanced classes when I was at [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton,], Virginia through the University of Virginia extension. But that’s the extent of my educational background.

[Assistant] You received an internship to go to Langley. Is that correct?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How did that come about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that did not have enough lift to do that. All it would do is alleviate the high Gs during entry. That’s all it would do. It had some maneuverability, so the ships probably would be in a better location to pick up the capsule. No, it still descended and landed on parachute. It did not land. In none of the stuff that we did at Langley did we come up with a configuration to land horizontally with a lifting body. Some was done by Langley, but most of it was done by Ames Research Center and Flight Research Center. That’s where that activity was going on.

[Assistant] You were at NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] during the time of the first Sputnik, and then again when the Yuri Gagarin flight occurred, and when Russia was always that one step ahead. Maybe you can just talk about that for a second, the feeling at Langley and how the workforce reacted to Russia being ahead.

[User] Catch up. Catch up. Do it. We were down because we didn’t make it before they did. That didn’t stop us. That didn’t dishearten us. Full speed ahead. Go. Let’s get there as fast as we can.

[Assistant] You were ready to keep going.

[User] Absolutely, absolutely.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about when President [John F.] Kennedy announced that the US would land a man on the Moon and return him safely to Earth before the decade was out. At that time I know Apollo was one of those things that people were thinking about. Did you think that was a realistic goal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Catch up. Catch up. Do it. We were down because we didn’t make it before they did. That didn’t stop us. That didn’t dishearten us. Full speed ahead. Go. Let’s get there as fast as we can.

[Assistant] You were ready to keep going.

[User] Absolutely, absolutely.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about when President [John F.] Kennedy announced that the US would land a man on the Moon and return him safely to Earth before the decade was out. At that time I know Apollo was one of those things that people were thinking about. Did you think that was a realistic goal?

[User] Sure. Sure.

[Assistant] You felt your research at that point was ready?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely, absolutely.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about when President [John F.] Kennedy announced that the US would land a man on the Moon and return him safely to Earth before the decade was out. At that time I know Apollo was one of those things that people were thinking about. Did you think that was a realistic goal?

[User] Sure. Sure.

[Assistant] You felt your research at that point was ready?

[User] From an aerodynamics standpoint—I can talk from a project standpoint a little bit, or an aerodynamics standpoint. Aerodynamics standpoint we had no problem with it. There’d been enough research work analytically and experimentally. Analytically from Ames, experimentally from Langley with some tests that were done with Scout [Rocket Program] configurations that went into orbit and reentered at those velocities, 36,000 feet per second.\n\n We had no problem with the ability to do it. When they configured the system to go to the Moon, they made a big bet. The big bet was that the microelectronics would be developed in time to integrate into the Apollo, because the systems that were available at the time we committed Apollo to go to the Moon, to the design, they were not available. So there was research there that we were betting on to come that we’d meet. Otherwise we never would have got to the Moon. It’s probably one of the things that slowed the Russians down, because they were behind us in the microelectronics. The booster was big enough as it was. It was humongous compared to anything we’d ever dealt with.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the Space Task Group. You said that you were anxious to join because they were moving a little quicker, and there were those goals that were set, and you wanted to keep working that way. We’ve heard before that some of the older Langley engineers discouraged some of the younger people from moving on to STG. Did you find that to be true?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure. Sure.

[Assistant] You felt your research at that point was ready?

[User] From an aerodynamics standpoint—I can talk from a project standpoint a little bit, or an aerodynamics standpoint. Aerodynamics standpoint we had no problem with it. There’d been enough research work analytically and experimentally. Analytically from Ames, experimentally from Langley with some tests that were done with Scout [Rocket Program] configurations that went into orbit and reentered at those velocities, 36,000 feet per second.\n\n We had no problem with the ability to do it. When they configured the system to go to the Moon, they made a big bet. The big bet was that the microelectronics would be developed in time to integrate into the Apollo, because the systems that were available at the time we committed Apollo to go to the Moon, to the design, they were not available. So there was research there that we were betting on to come that we’d meet. Otherwise we never would have got to the Moon. It’s probably one of the things that slowed the Russians down, because they were behind us in the microelectronics. The booster was big enough as it was. It was humongous compared to anything we’d ever dealt with.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the Space Task Group. You said that you were anxious to join because they were moving a little quicker, and there were those goals that were set, and you wanted to keep working that way. We’ve heard before that some of the older Langley engineers discouraged some of the younger people from moving on to STG. Did you find that to be true?

[User] Because I was in the cadre of people that became the core. They were all gung ho.

[Assistant] They were ready to go.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From an aerodynamics standpoint—I can talk from a project standpoint a little bit, or an aerodynamics standpoint. Aerodynamics standpoint we had no problem with it. There’d been enough research work analytically and experimentally. Analytically from Ames, experimentally from Langley with some tests that were done with Scout [Rocket Program] configurations that went into orbit and reentered at those velocities, 36,000 feet per second.\n\n We had no problem with the ability to do it. When they configured the system to go to the Moon, they made a big bet. The big bet was that the microelectronics would be developed in time to integrate into the Apollo, because the systems that were available at the time we committed Apollo to go to the Moon, to the design, they were not available. So there was research there that we were betting on to come that we’d meet. Otherwise we never would have got to the Moon. It’s probably one of the things that slowed the Russians down, because they were behind us in the microelectronics. The booster was big enough as it was. It was humongous compared to anything we’d ever dealt with.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the Space Task Group. You said that you were anxious to join because they were moving a little quicker, and there were those goals that were set, and you wanted to keep working that way. We’ve heard before that some of the older Langley engineers discouraged some of the younger people from moving on to STG. Did you find that to be true?

[User] Because I was in the cadre of people that became the core. They were all gung ho.

[Assistant] They were ready to go.

[User] Right. All ready to go.

[Assistant] Well, they decided to move to Houston, [Texas].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because I was in the cadre of people that became the core. They were all gung ho.

[Assistant] They were ready to go.

[User] Right. All ready to go.

[Assistant] Well, they decided to move to Houston, [Texas].

[User] Well, first they were going to move up to Maryland. But it wasn’t a big deal. I was going to go wherever it was going to go.

[Assistant] You didn’t care where they sent it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. All ready to go.

[Assistant] Well, they decided to move to Houston, [Texas].

[User] Well, first they were going to move up to Maryland. But it wasn’t a big deal. I was going to go wherever it was going to go.

[Assistant] You didn’t care where they sent it.

[User] I came down on a visit to Houston in October after [Hurricane] Carla had come through in September. I said, “Whoa!” We drove down NASA Road 1 past cow pastures on the left with barbed wire fence. I said, “Are they really serious about this?” I drove around Clear Lake, and it was just totally devastated by Carla, just really torn up badly. So I said, “What the hell? We’re going down there. Let’s go. It’s an adventure. Let’s go.”\n\n Interesting thing. I drove down from Virginia—the family flew down and I drove down. I drove down, and I arrived in Houston on the Gulf Freeway [Interstate Highway 45], and it was under construction. When I left Houston ten years ago, still under construction.

[Assistant] And it’s still under construction now. Just to let you know. Nothing’s changed. Were you married at that time? Did you have a family that you had to move?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, first they were going to move up to Maryland. But it wasn’t a big deal. I was going to go wherever it was going to go.

[Assistant] You didn’t care where they sent it.

[User] I came down on a visit to Houston in October after [Hurricane] Carla had come through in September. I said, “Whoa!” We drove down NASA Road 1 past cow pastures on the left with barbed wire fence. I said, “Are they really serious about this?” I drove around Clear Lake, and it was just totally devastated by Carla, just really torn up badly. So I said, “What the hell? We’re going down there. Let’s go. It’s an adventure. Let’s go.”\n\n Interesting thing. I drove down from Virginia—the family flew down and I drove down. I drove down, and I arrived in Houston on the Gulf Freeway [Interstate Highway 45], and it was under construction. When I left Houston ten years ago, still under construction.

[Assistant] And it’s still under construction now. Just to let you know. Nothing’s changed. Were you married at that time? Did you have a family that you had to move?

[User] Yes. Yes. Three children and a wife.

[Assistant] How did they react to the idea of moving to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I came down on a visit to Houston in October after [Hurricane] Carla had come through in September. I said, “Whoa!” We drove down NASA Road 1 past cow pastures on the left with barbed wire fence. I said, “Are they really serious about this?” I drove around Clear Lake, and it was just totally devastated by Carla, just really torn up badly. So I said, “What the hell? We’re going down there. Let’s go. It’s an adventure. Let’s go.”\n\n Interesting thing. I drove down from Virginia—the family flew down and I drove down. I drove down, and I arrived in Houston on the Gulf Freeway [Interstate Highway 45], and it was under construction. When I left Houston ten years ago, still under construction.

[Assistant] And it’s still under construction now. Just to let you know. Nothing’s changed. Were you married at that time? Did you have a family that you had to move?

[User] Yes. Yes. Three children and a wife.

[Assistant] How did they react to the idea of moving to Houston?

[User] They were too young to appreciate it. Five, three, and one.

[Assistant] What about your wife?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes. Three children and a wife.

[Assistant] How did they react to the idea of moving to Houston?

[User] They were too young to appreciate it. Five, three, and one.

[Assistant] What about your wife?

[User] She was gung ho. She was ready to go. She was a New England gal that never left New England. In fact my family, all my roots are in New England. I was born in Salem, Massachusetts. My father is the first of the clan to leave New England. [In 1938 our family left Bangor, Maine, and moved to Miami, Florida.] Everyone else is [still] up there. There was a family history put together by one of my uncles, second line of the family. It was so easy for him, because everybody was there. They were all right there within 100 miles. Nobody ever left. They didn’t have big families, most of them. My family was two, my father was two, grandfather was two, that sort of thing. So it was not a lot of people to communicate with.\n\n Then we moved to Houston, and my wife [developed] a brain tumor [in 1973]. So that upset the apple cart. Anyway she’s since passed on. [My three children are all Texans, happily married, and each has two children.]

[Assistant] Where did you live when you first moved to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were too young to appreciate it. Five, three, and one.

[Assistant] What about your wife?

[User] She was gung ho. She was ready to go. She was a New England gal that never left New England. In fact my family, all my roots are in New England. I was born in Salem, Massachusetts. My father is the first of the clan to leave New England. [In 1938 our family left Bangor, Maine, and moved to Miami, Florida.] Everyone else is [still] up there. There was a family history put together by one of my uncles, second line of the family. It was so easy for him, because everybody was there. They were all right there within 100 miles. Nobody ever left. They didn’t have big families, most of them. My family was two, my father was two, grandfather was two, that sort of thing. So it was not a lot of people to communicate with.\n\n Then we moved to Houston, and my wife [developed] a brain tumor [in 1973]. So that upset the apple cart. Anyway she’s since passed on. [My three children are all Texans, happily married, and each has two children.]

[Assistant] Where did you live when you first moved to Houston?

[User] First house we bought was up on Anacortes [Street], which is in the development just toward town from Hobby Airport. It was a new development, new house. We lived in a rental house down off Edgebrook [Drive] to start with. Lived there for four to six months, something like that, before we bought the house.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about those first days. Where were your offices?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I tried to develop my engineers. That was my chief goal. I gave them a lot of responsibility. We had a procedure where once a week, we had what we called a show-and-tell. People that were working on projects would come forth and make presentation on the status of what they were doing. If a presentation needed to be made higher up in management, they came through and were critiqued and helped to get it in form. But they took the project forward. That was my style, my philosophy. I was always there in the meeting to help if I needed to. I did a lot of [personnel] development. I tried to develop people. In fact, if you’re in an organization, you got a lot of people you just can’t develop, but you’ve got to find a place for them. They’ve got to be productive. That was my biggest asset I guess was being able to find a job and make everybody in my organization productive. That was the big thing. Like you say, working on the walls, whatever they’re doing, that was encouraged. Whatever they could do to help improve the job, get the job done, was encouraged. That was a big thing.

[Assistant] What were your hours like? What type of hours were you working at that point?

[User] I had a family. I was not one of these people that would work 18 hours a day. I did not do that. I got things going. That’s the reason. I’d pass responsibility off for certain things to people and let them go do it. If they wanted to work those hours, or they had to work those hours, that was their problem. But I always made sure that whatever they did was quality work, it was always supervised by somebody. As part of their development, it was supervised by someone who could steer them and guide them.

[Assistant] That mentorship was encouraged.

[User] Yes ma’am, absolutely. That was a big thing.

[Assistant] Well, the Little Joe 2 program, Milt [Milton A.] Silveira, we’ve talked to him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had a family. I was not one of these people that would work 18 hours a day. I did not do that. I got things going. That’s the reason. I’d pass responsibility off for certain things to people and let them go do it. If they wanted to work those hours, or they had to work those hours, that was their problem. But I always made sure that whatever they did was quality work, it was always supervised by somebody. As part of their development, it was supervised by someone who could steer them and guide them.

[Assistant] That mentorship was encouraged.

[User] Yes ma’am, absolutely. That was a big thing.

[Assistant] Well, the Little Joe 2 program, Milt [Milton A.] Silveira, we’ve talked to him.

[User] He was my deputy.

[Assistant] He was your deputy during that time. Do you want to talk about that project or that program for a minute?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes ma’am, absolutely. That was a big thing.

[Assistant] Well, the Little Joe 2 program, Milt [Milton A.] Silveira, we’ve talked to him.

[User] He was my deputy.

[Assistant] He was your deputy during that time. Do you want to talk about that project or that program for a minute?

[User] I can’t do anything more than Milt. That’s one of those cases. Perfect example of what I was saying.

[Assistant] You gave it to him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was my deputy.

[Assistant] He was your deputy during that time. Do you want to talk about that project or that program for a minute?

[User] I can’t do anything more than Milt. That’s one of those cases. Perfect example of what I was saying.

[Assistant] You gave it to him.

[User] I gave it to him. We used to have meetings regularly on the status of what was going on. If he had any problems the door was always open, come in. But I was always there backing him up. Milt was a good guy.

[Assistant] I enjoyed talking to him.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I gave it to him. We used to have meetings regularly on the status of what was going on. If he had any problems the door was always open, come in. But I was always there backing him up. Milt was a good guy.

[Assistant] I enjoyed talking to him.

[User] He went on to bigger and better things. We had families the same age, lived in the same neighborhood too.

[Assistant] Oh really?

[User] Yes, so it was more than just a work relationship, it was a family relationship.

[Assistant] We’ve heard that from a lot of people, that the people you worked with were the people you socialized with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He went on to bigger and better things. We had families the same age, lived in the same neighborhood too.

[Assistant] Oh really?

[User] Yes, so it was more than just a work relationship, it was a family relationship.

[Assistant] We’ve heard that from a lot of people, that the people you worked with were the people you socialized with.

[User] That’s right. In fact the neighborhood I was in—a lot of people lived in apartments in various and sundry places, but there must have been six or seven families of the NASA people that lived in the neighborhood that we lived in. We had a regular gathering get-together. Interesting too at the time, there were contractors. We could socialize with contractors and not be held in bad stead. It was great. We had gatherings and we played golf together, go to golf tournaments and things like that. There was no favoritism shown selecting those contractors. [I believe it could have been] blatant favoritism [that led to] the selection of Rockwell to build the Apollo spacecraft. Those guys didn’t know crap about ballistic vehicles. They were great airplane builders. The only reason they won that contract is because the astronauts went to Gilruth and demanded, because they built good airplanes. That’s the only defense they had, they build good airplanes, they build good airplanes.\n\n I really got in trouble with Gilruth one time. I’ll get to that later. That’s one of the projects.

[Assistant] Do you want to go ahead and talk about some of the projects during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve got lots of asides by the way.

[Assistant] That’s good, those are the kind of stories only you have. So those are the ones we want to hear because it’s your experiences.\n\n During that time the Apollo 1 fire happened. Do you want to talk about that time period for a moment and just reflect on some of your memories of that time?

[User] Again, it’s another one of these cases where the engineering [design] work was done by that time. I was in the engineering organization. Once the vehicle is designed and built, there’s just a small cadre of engineers that go over [to Mission Control to] support the launches. Or they’re on call for whatever event occurs. Some engineering calamity occurs or something, a problem occurs. That was at the time that engineering was basically out of the Apollo program. I was not there. I had emotions involved with it, yes, but no physical work or anything like that. Because it wasn’t an aerodynamics problem, it wasn’t unstable, it didn’t crash, it wasn’t an aerodynamics problem. What more can I say?

[Assistant] You didn’t have anything to do with any of the reviews?

[User] No, nothing at all, no, I was not involved in any of that. After the fact, all the analyses that were done were done to system—all the modifications were done to systems, not to configuration, which is what my bag was. My bag was the configuration, how it flew, that sort of thing. That was not an issue that came on my plate.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about [your position as] the Chief of Engineering Analysis Division in ’70, in the early Shuttle [timeframe].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. It had changed completely. Just totally changed. That was a totally different world then.

[Assistant] Going back to Shuttle, you worked on the abort systems in those earlier [spacecraft] designs. The ejection seats that were there for those first flights—they didn’t have those anymore once it was flying. What were your thoughts on flying without that capability?

[User] I was gung ho. We’d been so successful in the other adventures we had flightwise. I just felt that we think we know enough about space and reentry and the ascent phase that it’s a good bet to do that.

[Assistant] You decided to retire in 1985. What did you plan to do when you retired, and what did you do once you retired?

[User] When I first retired, I wound up being a representative for RCA. I’d go to all the meetings over there for the Space Station, because they had a piece of equipment that they were trying to sell as part of the Space Station program. There was a big problem with it, because they had been so independent as a commercial operation only, no government work. They sold their product to the government, but they didn’t take a government contract to build something for them. So I kept trying to convince those guys, “Hey, your ass belongs to the government.” As soon as you buy that contract your free will is gone. You can’t go do what you just want to do. I worked for those guys I guess two or three years. They never did accept that reality, but that’s exactly what it is.\n\n Just like now what’s going on. All this financial crap that’s going on with the government. All the strings that are attached if you take government money. That’s exactly the way it is with contracts. You abide by the government’s wish if you’re going to take government money. You don’t have any—no singularities now.

[Assistant] When we first came in downstairs, we were talking about the brakes. Do you want to just talk about that for a second, the problem with the braking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You just have to trust your people. I’ve got a management sense I guess. I can get a feel for what’s going on. I can’t sit down and [design a brake system], I can’t do that. I could do some aerodynamic stuff at one time when I was in aerodynamics. The reason that I got the responsibility, I’m sure, is just because of my management ability to manage people and projects and things like that, which I had demonstrated.

[Assistant] Working with RCA afterwards with the Space Station, did you work on Space Station before you retired?

[User] There’s no aerodynamics in Space Station and no brakes either.

[Assistant] So you didn’t support that program planning in any way or design.

[User] No. We had a little bit of work done, in terms of are there any aerodynamic effects up in orbit. There are a few molecules floating around up there that bang into the Shuttle. But no, the aerodynamic effect is insignificant. I had responsibility, as I say, because I was systems engineering division, and one systems engineering function is to gather, collect, review, assess, and everything else, and massage the requirements. The requirements logically come under systems engineering as a function, but not in that project. That was one of the reasons why I cut and left. I just couldn’t see a place for me. My interest and area of expertise, if I had any, was aerodynamics. There was nothing coming up that was going to be aerodynamic.\n\n The requirements that were a part of systems engineering, I could have managed had I been given the authority to do so. But it got to the point where you would present a presentation to the program office, and if the program office didn’t like it or said something derogatory about it, that guy would get on the phone and call the Administrator. All these guys knew the Administrator. So it would rain back down. It was totally out of control. It was out of control.

[Assistant] You worked for a lot of different directors and managers throughout your career, beginning with NACA and on through NASA. You mentioned a few, but which ones do you think really influenced you the most as far as your management style?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Al Kehlet is number one. Bob Piland is number two. Faget in a sense. Faget was not a good manager. [He had a bunch of good managers working for him.] He was a hell of a designer, hell of an [idea man and the best creative engineer I ever knew]. He was smart as a whip on ideas and concepts and that sort of thing.

[Assistant]
I’m going to, if you don’t mind, see if Rebecca has any questions.

I just have one. The years that you were there, technology changed. How did that impact your job as an engineer?

[User] Aerodynamics didn’t change. Wind tunnels were the same ones. In fact, they’re still there right now. They’re dilapidated and going into disrepair. Well, I’ve already alluded to it but I’ll go back to it again. That is that when NASA was first formed, it was not bureaucratic in the least sense. Everything is so bureaucratic in NASA now that [it’s difficult to do anything creative].

[Assistant] What time period do you feel is the one that you really enjoyed the most?

[User] I loved working on Apollo. Loved working on Apollo. That was futuristic. A real challenge. Nobody’d ever done that before. People built airplanes, people built rockets, people built warheads. Nobody ever went to the Moon. That was exciting. It was exciting.

[Assistant] You mentioned Apollo was your favorite time. Is there anything that you can think of as the most challenging part of your career? Or anything you’re most proud of for accomplishing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Aerodynamics didn’t change. Wind tunnels were the same ones. In fact, they’re still there right now. They’re dilapidated and going into disrepair. Well, I’ve already alluded to it but I’ll go back to it again. That is that when NASA was first formed, it was not bureaucratic in the least sense. Everything is so bureaucratic in NASA now that [it’s difficult to do anything creative].

[Assistant] What time period do you feel is the one that you really enjoyed the most?

[User] I loved working on Apollo. Loved working on Apollo. That was futuristic. A real challenge. Nobody’d ever done that before. People built airplanes, people built rockets, people built warheads. Nobody ever went to the Moon. That was exciting. It was exciting.

[Assistant] You mentioned Apollo was your favorite time. Is there anything that you can think of as the most challenging part of your career? Or anything you’re most proud of for accomplishing?

[User] Going to the Moon. Well, the Shuttle has got to be an aerodynamic achievement. I can’t discount that at all, that was a great achievement. Building an airplane that flies through that flight range and that angle of attack range, successful in that sense. Great design. I can’t claim fame to the design. That’s Faget’s. [But helping put meat on the bones of Faget’s creations, I will always cherish.]

[Assistant] What are your memories of Apollo 11 when they actually landed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I loved working on Apollo. Loved working on Apollo. That was futuristic. A real challenge. Nobody’d ever done that before. People built airplanes, people built rockets, people built warheads. Nobody ever went to the Moon. That was exciting. It was exciting.

[Assistant] You mentioned Apollo was your favorite time. Is there anything that you can think of as the most challenging part of your career? Or anything you’re most proud of for accomplishing?

[User] Going to the Moon. Well, the Shuttle has got to be an aerodynamic achievement. I can’t discount that at all, that was a great achievement. Building an airplane that flies through that flight range and that angle of attack range, successful in that sense. Great design. I can’t claim fame to the design. That’s Faget’s. [But helping put meat on the bones of Faget’s creations, I will always cherish.]

[Assistant] What are your memories of Apollo 11 when they actually landed?

[User] Euphoria. Glee. Hollering.

[Assistant] Were you at the Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Going to the Moon. Well, the Shuttle has got to be an aerodynamic achievement. I can’t discount that at all, that was a great achievement. Building an airplane that flies through that flight range and that angle of attack range, successful in that sense. Great design. I can’t claim fame to the design. That’s Faget’s. [But helping put meat on the bones of Faget’s creations, I will always cherish.]

[Assistant] What are your memories of Apollo 11 when they actually landed?

[User] Euphoria. Glee. Hollering.

[Assistant] Were you at the Center?

[User] No, I was home, with the family. We were all hollering, yes.

[Assistant] Was there anything we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, more comfortable. I don’t think they wear them as long as we used to.

[Assistant] Eventually the Challenger came along, the vehicle, and flew the sixth mission. How did that impact the systems that you were in charge of as far as processing, and how did you coordinate having two different Orbiters?

[User] We had Columbia and Challenger; we had two different vehicles as early as STS-[6]. Then after Challenger of course we had Discovery here. Then Atlantis came along.

[Assistant] Yes, and as those vehicles were added, I know it had some impact on the processing flow and how they were moved through. So if you want to just talk about that for a minute.

[User] I don’t really know. There was more to do.

[Assistant] Did it increase hours? Or were the hours pretty much the same and just different locations as far as the teams working on the vehicles?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had Columbia and Challenger; we had two different vehicles as early as STS-[6]. Then after Challenger of course we had Discovery here. Then Atlantis came along.

[Assistant] Yes, and as those vehicles were added, I know it had some impact on the processing flow and how they were moved through. So if you want to just talk about that for a minute.

[User] I don’t really know. There was more to do.

[Assistant] Did it increase hours? Or were the hours pretty much the same and just different locations as far as the teams working on the vehicles?

[User] We did not double the staff. We did take on more people. We were working more areas. If we’ve got two vehicles in flow then we’ve got to support people on the pad and people at HMF. Again back by the time you’re at Challenger, then we’re in the SPC mode. So I was not again working hands-on, and it was less of an impact to us in the design designee world than it was to the hands-on people. One of the actions that came out of the Rogers Commission [Presidential commission formed to investigate the accident] was more design involvement after Challenger.\n\n That affected me directly. It just about doubled my headcount. I hired a whole bunch of talent, a lot of people from the design areas, and a lot of people that had been relocated with the SPC [contract] were brought back to act as design designees. So Challenger just about doubled our headcount.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about Challenger for a minute and the accident itself. Were you here for the launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hiring, training, educating. We implemented an awful lot of modifications to the vehicle that had been pending. All were warranted at that time. This was a down period. It was a good time to go in and let’s try and bring the vehicle up to scratch while we’re at it. Before then we were trying to launch so fast we couldn’t get a lot of these mods done. So it became a modification period for the Orbiter.\n\n We didn’t have the issues that the SRB had. They had to go back and redesign and retest the joint seals. We had the opportunity to go try and make the Orbiter a safer vehicle. Plus we implemented the slide pole, stuff like that on the Orbiter. We did all sorts of work around the hatch in that respect. Most of that didn’t affect me. I was working across a whole bunch of other smaller systems.

[Assistant] Were there any modifications in your systems that you recall?

[User] Yes, there were modifications all across the board. But I’d got to the point now where I wasn’t really involved with the details. I had a lot of the guys working for me that were a whole lot smarter than I was working those. I was just managing a large group of people.

[Assistant] What about return to flight? What are you memories of STS-26 return to flight?

[User] Not much. Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck I think was the commander of that. In fact I was with him a couple weeks ago on a tour. I took him around. We talked about those days, but it was basically a routine Shuttle flight. It was obviously a lot more focus on it because it had been two years since we’d had Challenger. Just a feeling of relief that it went off well and we’re back flying again.

[Assistant] Did you have much interaction with the astronauts during those early years or during any of the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I haven’t a clue right now. I’d guess 300 or something like that. I’m not sure. Maybe more than that. It’s been a while since I’ve been down there.

[Assistant] It’s an interesting facility. When I was reading about it it seemed really interesting. Of course you were talking about USA, the consolidated contract, and taking over all that processing. During that time period when they were letting out that contract did you have any input?

[User] Definitely. This was a combined Rockwell-Lockheed effort, so they really used inputs from us down here as to how that should be structured. I spent quite a bit of time out in Houston working that with the USA people. Some of those guys are still here. I saw Howard DeCastro this weekend down here. He was one of the original USA guys they brought in.

[Assistant] That first time back in ’84 they didn’t get that same sort of input for the processing contract?

[User] There was a whole lot more friction in ’84. We were hurt.

[Assistant] In ’97, when you decided to retire, what led to that decision?