[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was just incidental. Again, seeing how things work.

[Assistant] And the guy you were living with was involved with?

[User] With the agricultural co-op.

[Assistant] With that, the one we're talking about here?

[User] Yes. [inaudible]

[Assistant] Well, it's okay. What, if you had a counterpart, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. [inaudible]

[Assistant] Well, it's okay. What, if you had a counterpart, I mean?

[User] So the counterpart, um, supervisor. He was just basically, I think he saw his job was just to ride around and make sure that the people on the land were on the land. There were not any land, anybody, any strange families that were or they were selling out. I don't think they could sell their lands.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Had to revert back to the government. And that's all he did. He didn't see his job as working with the co-op or. The first kind of project I got involved with is measuring for a road. So I got another, there was another volunteer assigned to the capital as engineer to the land reform agency. So I got him to come out and measure for a road. And of course, that's all that happened. He measured for a road.

[Assistant] At what point in your Peace Corps career did that happen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the counterpart, um, supervisor. He was just basically, I think he saw his job was just to ride around and make sure that the people on the land were on the land. There were not any land, anybody, any strange families that were or they were selling out. I don't think they could sell their lands.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Had to revert back to the government. And that's all he did. He didn't see his job as working with the co-op or. The first kind of project I got involved with is measuring for a road. So I got another, there was another volunteer assigned to the capital as engineer to the land reform agency. So I got him to come out and measure for a road. And of course, that's all that happened. He measured for a road.

[Assistant] At what point in your Peace Corps career did that happen?

[User] That happened about a month after I got there.

[Assistant] Okay. Did, in the first three or four months, did things begin to gel or did you still have the kind of question of why I am here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That happened about a month after I got there.

[Assistant] Okay. Did, in the first three or four months, did things begin to gel or did you still have the kind of question of why I am here?

[User] My, I was only, I was there for a year.

[Assistant] Right. okay.

[User] And after that, I went to the capital city. So things really never did gel. This measuring during the survey work for the road was, I help, I helped out my, the Peace Corps volunteer that came out to do the survey.

[Assistant] So it's really your first year. Go, go ahead. I'm sorry.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And after that, I went to the capital city. So things really never did gel. This measuring during the survey work for the road was, I help, I helped out my, the Peace Corps volunteer that came out to do the survey.

[Assistant] So it's really your first year. Go, go ahead. I'm sorry.

[User] So then I worked with the co-op.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then about two months after I got there, there was the war with El Salvador. So that put a break on things for about two months.

[Assistant] How did you hear about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So then I worked with the co-op.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then about two months after I got there, there was the war with El Salvador. So that put a break on things for about two months.

[Assistant] How did you hear about that?

[User] It was probably the biggest incident, the biggest thing that really actually happened in the country. This was the run up to the 1970 World Cup and Honduras and El Salvador were playing best two out of three to, I think was actually to go to the World Cup in Mexico. And so the Hondurans, they went to El Salvador for the, I'm trying to remember now how it worked. The first game was in Tegucigalpa. Nothing happened. And then the Hondurans went over and they were, the fans were treated badly. And then that night they had riots in Tegucigalpa. And then the next night, other parts of the country, anti Salvadorian riots. There were a lot of Salvadorians had immigrated to Honduras because of El Salvador being overpopulated.

[Assistant] Uh huh. But there was no civil war going on there at the time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was probably the biggest incident, the biggest thing that really actually happened in the country. This was the run up to the 1970 World Cup and Honduras and El Salvador were playing best two out of three to, I think was actually to go to the World Cup in Mexico. And so the Hondurans, they went to El Salvador for the, I'm trying to remember now how it worked. The first game was in Tegucigalpa. Nothing happened. And then the Hondurans went over and they were, the fans were treated badly. And then that night they had riots in Tegucigalpa. And then the next night, other parts of the country, anti Salvadorian riots. There were a lot of Salvadorians had immigrated to Honduras because of El Salvador being overpopulated.

[Assistant] Uh huh. But there was no civil war going on there at the time?

[User] There was no civil war going on. But that was, I think it had a direct results of why there was a civil war later on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Of 3 million people in Honduras, I think 300,000 must have been Salvadorians. So this took place. There were some riots. In my town, there weren't riots, but there were identifiable Salvadorians. I got, I couldn't tell people apart. But the big, the biggest difference is they eat black beans, the Hondurans eat red beans.

[Assistant] So before you can beat somebody up, you have to sit down and have a meal with them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was no civil war going on. But that was, I think it had a direct results of why there was a civil war later on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Of 3 million people in Honduras, I think 300,000 must have been Salvadorians. So this took place. There were some riots. In my town, there weren't riots, but there were identifiable Salvadorians. I got, I couldn't tell people apart. But the big, the biggest difference is they eat black beans, the Hondurans eat red beans.

[Assistant] So before you can beat somebody up, you have to sit down and have a meal with them.

[User] Well, they could, they could tell the difference. They spoke, I guess. I couldn't. Anyway, um.

[Assistant] So you went to work one day. You became aware that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I started out, heard this. I heard that on the radio and actually I was in Tegucigalpa a couple of days later. I had to go back in for something.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But then what would happen. What happened in my town, Catacamas, was all of a sudden you started seeing a banner across the main street that said, to die for the country is to be a good Honduran. So someone, the military, I think the military was themselves trying to build up patriotic fervor to kick out the Salvadorians and, I don't know, even to bait them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So then every day after that, it seemed like you would see a truckload of people, you know, a truck that's a big truck, not a pickup truck. There'd be people in them, loaded up their belongings and standing there, and then they'd take off. And that went on for several weeks.

[Assistant] And your impression was that, who was in the truck?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So then every day after that, it seemed like you would see a truckload of people, you know, a truck that's a big truck, not a pickup truck. There'd be people in them, loaded up their belongings and standing there, and then they'd take off. And that went on for several weeks.

[Assistant] And your impression was that, who was in the truck?

[User] These were Salvadorians leaving, because they knew something was going to happen.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I guess when they saw the banner and all the hate that was on the radio. I didn't, I didn't catch it all, but I think there were all of a sudden teaching the people to hate the Salvadorians.

[Assistant] Did you try to communicate with the Peace Corps headquarters and say, what's going on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, so at that time, there was a captain and, you know, maybe five soldiers in our little town, and I met. In fact, he drove me out to the agricultural colony one time. This is before the incident, but he was called to the front or whatever. I never saw him again. So that was a lesson in instant hate, at least in my mind, was instant hate. And I'd find, then I could go, what happened to so-and-so? Oh, he was Salvadorian. He left.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So they, the Salvadorians got the word somehow.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They found out they were not.

[Assistant] And among them were people you had been working with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they, the Salvadorians got the word somehow.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They found out they were not.

[Assistant] And among them were people you had been working with?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay, so there were huge sort of gaps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Okay, so there were huge sort of gaps.

[User] And this is, the war started in July, so I had only known them for two months by the time the war started. But this started a month before.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then one fine day I was out, um. Where was I? No, I was out in the site, you know, five miles from town. I heard a plane circling around, around dusk, actually I could see it. And, um, it was very unusual. We had an airstrip that was serviced by a DC-3 three times a week, but it came at 10:00 in the morning and it came back through at 2:00 going back. All the stops on the way and on the way back. So it was unusual to see a plane. It wasn't the biggest surprise. Well, it turned out that that plane had dropped two bombs in my town, one about two blocks from my house and another about six blocks. In fact, it was in the patio of the biggest store, because it could have killed a lot of people but didn't. It was just material damages right in the courtyards. And the other was in the yard of a kind of a medium corporate house.

[Assistant] And the assumption was it was the Salvadoran plane or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then one fine day I was out, um. Where was I? No, I was out in the site, you know, five miles from town. I heard a plane circling around, around dusk, actually I could see it. And, um, it was very unusual. We had an airstrip that was serviced by a DC-3 three times a week, but it came at 10:00 in the morning and it came back through at 2:00 going back. All the stops on the way and on the way back. So it was unusual to see a plane. It wasn't the biggest surprise. Well, it turned out that that plane had dropped two bombs in my town, one about two blocks from my house and another about six blocks. In fact, it was in the patio of the biggest store, because it could have killed a lot of people but didn't. It was just material damages right in the courtyards. And the other was in the yard of a kind of a medium corporate house.

[Assistant] And the assumption was it was the Salvadoran plane or?

[User] Well, we found out later, we didn't even know it out there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But this is how. I was showing, uh, I had got a movie. Was that at the same time? Yeah, it was. That particular time I had gotten someone to come into town with an oxcart and I had a projector and, um, a portable electric generated, gasoline powered one. And I showed movies that evening in this little house.

[Assistant] I hope, not war movies I hope.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And in some cases, these kids have never seen movies.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] You know, these people could go into town. There was a movie house.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Was it two or one? It was one movie house. And, uh, but a lot of these kids have never been in the movies. And anyway, we finished up pretty, pretty early there, it was. But I fell asleep in the school. I was going to sleep in the schoolhouse on the floor on this. And so then next door was the co-op and I, during the night, I thought I heard, I thought I was dreaming. But they were talking a lot, guerra, war, war. I got up real early because I still heard people talking. It was unusual to hear people all the middle of the night and then still. There was a lot of people there, like the co-op, the store didn't open until 7:00, an hour after the sun came up or something. So I got up and the people said, we're at war. And I said, who against? And they give the whole story, that there had been bombs dropped in town and the Salvadorian troops were, crossed over the border, and they had all kinds of rumors were flying by then, but most of the rumors would be the rumors that were spread by the radio.

[Assistant] How far were you from the Salvadoran border?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, these people could go into town. There was a movie house.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Was it two or one? It was one movie house. And, uh, but a lot of these kids have never been in the movies. And anyway, we finished up pretty, pretty early there, it was. But I fell asleep in the school. I was going to sleep in the schoolhouse on the floor on this. And so then next door was the co-op and I, during the night, I thought I heard, I thought I was dreaming. But they were talking a lot, guerra, war, war. I got up real early because I still heard people talking. It was unusual to hear people all the middle of the night and then still. There was a lot of people there, like the co-op, the store didn't open until 7:00, an hour after the sun came up or something. So I got up and the people said, we're at war. And I said, who against? And they give the whole story, that there had been bombs dropped in town and the Salvadorian troops were, crossed over the border, and they had all kinds of rumors were flying by then, but most of the rumors would be the rumors that were spread by the radio.

[Assistant] How far were you from the Salvadoran border?

[User] Oh, I was 200 miles away.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other Peace Corps volunteers were in town where they were invaded, and they were actually captured, I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But no one was hurt. So I decided then a couple of hours later, I guess I'd better go back to town. And there already had sentries out, because they were figuring paratroopers and everything like this. But the, the plane was unlike the type you take a bomb and throw it out like that. It wasn't, they were 250 pound bombs but.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That's, uh, that was our picture of it. And so I went back to town and then, I can't remember if I got the, I don't think I got any word from the Peace Corps because they had, the military had taken over the telegraph lines and everything. I don't think I heard anything for. Basically they said stay put, which was what we're going to do anyway, cause I think the bus transportation had stopped anyway, because they have the bus in the capital city. And, um.

[Assistant] Did you suddenly feel cut off, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But no one was hurt. So I decided then a couple of hours later, I guess I'd better go back to town. And there already had sentries out, because they were figuring paratroopers and everything like this. But the, the plane was unlike the type you take a bomb and throw it out like that. It wasn't, they were 250 pound bombs but.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That's, uh, that was our picture of it. And so I went back to town and then, I can't remember if I got the, I don't think I got any word from the Peace Corps because they had, the military had taken over the telegraph lines and everything. I don't think I heard anything for. Basically they said stay put, which was what we're going to do anyway, cause I think the bus transportation had stopped anyway, because they have the bus in the capital city. And, um.

[Assistant] Did you suddenly feel cut off, I mean?

[User] Oh, a bit. And then the next day there was, I think it was the next day. Or was that, was that the same day? I can't remember of it was the next day or not. At the agriculture co-op didn't open. Usually my colleague, my Peace Corps colleague, was working there and doing something with the manager. Didn't open. But then all of a sudden, there was a long line of people at the door of the co-op banging on it. And my colleague didn't understand what they wanted, and they wanted machetes because the Salvadorian paratroopers had landed in San Pedro, which was a little crossroads about five miles out of town.

[Assistant] Yeah. And people were literally fired up to do this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, a bit. And then the next day there was, I think it was the next day. Or was that, was that the same day? I can't remember of it was the next day or not. At the agriculture co-op didn't open. Usually my colleague, my Peace Corps colleague, was working there and doing something with the manager. Didn't open. But then all of a sudden, there was a long line of people at the door of the co-op banging on it. And my colleague didn't understand what they wanted, and they wanted machetes because the Salvadorian paratroopers had landed in San Pedro, which was a little crossroads about five miles out of town.

[Assistant] Yeah. And people were literally fired up to do this?

[User] Fired up, yeah. They didn't have, they had machetes at home, but they knew there were machetes there. And he said, well, what are we going to do? I said, well, I think they're going to tear down the door if we close it. So what we did is, rather than let them in, is there was like two or three boxes of machetes and we just gave one to each person who was there. And I remember this guy with a, who was always running around barefooted, like old man, sorry, but I don't know old he was at the time. I'm sure he was that much. He was the last one in line. He was almost going to look back at us like we knew he really wasn't going to run down there or jump on a truck or a horse to fight the Salvadorans. Of course, no one ever returned the machete. But no, they were panicking. They were panicking.

[Assistant] How?

[User] Of course, the large landowners would have their own guns. And I don't know if they went down there.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were there, were there actually people leaving town to go to some central point to fight or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fired up, yeah. They didn't have, they had machetes at home, but they knew there were machetes there. And he said, well, what are we going to do? I said, well, I think they're going to tear down the door if we close it. So what we did is, rather than let them in, is there was like two or three boxes of machetes and we just gave one to each person who was there. And I remember this guy with a, who was always running around barefooted, like old man, sorry, but I don't know old he was at the time. I'm sure he was that much. He was the last one in line. He was almost going to look back at us like we knew he really wasn't going to run down there or jump on a truck or a horse to fight the Salvadorans. Of course, no one ever returned the machete. But no, they were panicking. They were panicking.

[Assistant] How?

[User] Of course, the large landowners would have their own guns. And I don't know if they went down there.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were there, were there actually people leaving town to go to some central point to fight or?

[User] No.

[Assistant] They just, they were prepared to defend the area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, the large landowners would have their own guns. And I don't know if they went down there.

[Assistant] Yeah. And were there, were there actually people leaving town to go to some central point to fight or?

[User] No.

[Assistant] They just, they were prepared to defend the area.

[User] Yeah. This is the only time that I heard that. That was a real live rumor.

[Assistant] How long the situation go on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] They just, they were prepared to defend the area.

[User] Yeah. This is the only time that I heard that. That was a real live rumor.

[Assistant] How long the situation go on?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Without any U.S. intervention in your?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. This is the only time that I heard that. That was a real live rumor.

[Assistant] How long the situation go on?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] Without any U.S. intervention in your?

[User] Well, of course, then the Hondurans would blame the U.S. for it. And I found out later the Salvadorians blamed the U.S. for it. I believe the OAS, of course there was a lot of behind the scenes U.S. involvement. Salvador, El Salvador was able to, um, the land troops. They had got into Honduras between, I guess up to ten or 12 miles, and captured towns, captured territory. Hondurans, I guess, started to control the air. And I believe the Hondurans bombed an oil refinery. And it was starting to affect things. And then I think that's what El Salvador finally realized that they were going to get. They might be able to advance further on the land, but they weren't going to have enough provisions to - this is all, I don't know this for sure - pursue them any further into Honduras. And so then the good offices of the OAS were able, then they had a cease fire. And then I think, I can't remember how long it took before all the Salvadoran troops went back to the existing, preexisting border.

[Assistant] And at the time in the village, how were you being informed of these developments?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, of course, then the Hondurans would blame the U.S. for it. And I found out later the Salvadorians blamed the U.S. for it. I believe the OAS, of course there was a lot of behind the scenes U.S. involvement. Salvador, El Salvador was able to, um, the land troops. They had got into Honduras between, I guess up to ten or 12 miles, and captured towns, captured territory. Hondurans, I guess, started to control the air. And I believe the Hondurans bombed an oil refinery. And it was starting to affect things. And then I think that's what El Salvador finally realized that they were going to get. They might be able to advance further on the land, but they weren't going to have enough provisions to - this is all, I don't know this for sure - pursue them any further into Honduras. And so then the good offices of the OAS were able, then they had a cease fire. And then I think, I can't remember how long it took before all the Salvadoran troops went back to the existing, preexisting border.

[Assistant] And at the time in the village, how were you being informed of these developments?

[User] Radio, because we would listen to the Voice of America or BBC.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] To try to get really what was going on. Because you could get shortwave radio stations from Honduras and El Salvador.

[Assistant] And nobody in town came to you and said, you know, this is all your fault or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Radio, because we would listen to the Voice of America or BBC.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] To try to get really what was going on. Because you could get shortwave radio stations from Honduras and El Salvador.

[Assistant] And nobody in town came to you and said, you know, this is all your fault or?

[User] No, not really. But then when they talked about this, like they said, it must have been that the Salvadorans were given the green light and given this and given that to do this.

[Assistant] But there's no animosity toward you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not really. But then when they talked about this, like they said, it must have been that the Salvadorans were given the green light and given this and given that to do this.

[Assistant] But there's no animosity toward you?

[User] No. I think they were, they were looking for reasons why this had happened. But of course, they also realized that all their neighbors were Salvadoran and left the country.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] In the last six weeks before that, or a month before that, and something was going on.

[Assistant] How did the rest of the year play out then, you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It must have been said once or twice on the radio. But it was.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] As far as a world event, that was what was going on in the world at the time.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So things didn't. I didn't do anything really for a week or two.

[Assistant] When you attempted to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as a world event, that was what was going on in the world at the time.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So things didn't. I didn't do anything really for a week or two.

[Assistant] When you attempted to.

[User] Because there were, as I said, they had posted sentries and everything. So I guess everybody knew who I was by then. I think I went out to my site once during that, like the first two weeks. Then I came in and I think I didn't go out there for a five or ten.

[Assistant] You weren't tempted to try to find your way to the capital?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We think that they made a mistake because that was not bombed and just got disoriented.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they saw. And I could see why because it was, looking for a town and they probably came and they were further west and, no, further east than they thought they were.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, uh.

[Assistant] So how did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it might have been a week or so before we got any word from Peace Corps and they probably sent a telegram that was a week old that said, stay put unless your life is in danger, etc., etc.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] As it turned out, even those volunteers who were along the Salvadoran border, they were captured but they were basically, they stayed in their homes.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] And I think in some cases they actually weren't, they were sent to this, sent to the capital of Honduras, of El Salvador. And then they went to Guatemala and then came back, I believe.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As it turned out, even those volunteers who were along the Salvadoran border, they were captured but they were basically, they stayed in their homes.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] And I think in some cases they actually weren't, they were sent to this, sent to the capital of Honduras, of El Salvador. And then they went to Guatemala and then came back, I believe.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Well.

[User] They were just there. Apparently there weren't any civilian atrocities.

[Assistant] Now with your story then, you still have another eight, nine months in the village.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I think in some cases they actually weren't, they were sent to this, sent to the capital of Honduras, of El Salvador. And then they went to Guatemala and then came back, I believe.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Well.

[User] They were just there. Apparently there weren't any civilian atrocities.

[Assistant] Now with your story then, you still have another eight, nine months in the village.

[User] Yeah, I still have eight or nine months that I stayed in this village. Yes.

[Assistant] And kind of what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I still have eight or nine months that I stayed in this village. Yes.

[Assistant] And kind of what happened?

[User] I tried to, this counterpart, to see what he could do. And but he was, uh, didn't want to make any waves, didn't want to make any request of the, of the agency where we were. He was just happy to get a paycheck and ride his horse out there two or three times a week.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah, that.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, weren't you discouraged?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I tried to, this counterpart, to see what he could do. And but he was, uh, didn't want to make any waves, didn't want to make any request of the, of the agency where we were. He was just happy to get a paycheck and ride his horse out there two or three times a week.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah, that.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, weren't you discouraged?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And saying, you know, let me get the hell out of here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that.

[Assistant] Well, I mean, weren't you discouraged?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And saying, you know, let me get the hell out of here?

[User] Well, as I said, I attached myself to the consumer co-op. Um, I, there was a local high school. I volunteered to be a PE teacher twice a week. And but when I find myself having gone through the Peace Corps book locker, then I knew there was, I had to do something there or. So I asked for a transfer.

[Assistant] Okay. And during that whole year, had you been out of the?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And saying, you know, let me get the hell out of here?

[User] Well, as I said, I attached myself to the consumer co-op. Um, I, there was a local high school. I volunteered to be a PE teacher twice a week. And but when I find myself having gone through the Peace Corps book locker, then I knew there was, I had to do something there or. So I asked for a transfer.

[Assistant] Okay. And during that whole year, had you been out of the?

[User] Oh, yeah, I was. I'd probably gone out every three months or more often.

[Assistant] So to the capital?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, as I said, I attached myself to the consumer co-op. Um, I, there was a local high school. I volunteered to be a PE teacher twice a week. And but when I find myself having gone through the Peace Corps book locker, then I knew there was, I had to do something there or. So I asked for a transfer.

[Assistant] Okay. And during that whole year, had you been out of the?

[User] Oh, yeah, I was. I'd probably gone out every three months or more often.

[Assistant] So to the capital?

[User] The capital every three months probably. And I think the Peace Corps had a meeting after three months or six months of all the volunteers.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And after a year. I think we did it twice.

[Assistant] It varied.

[User] After three months.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um. We were discouraged, highly discouraged from coming in. In fact, they would send out a notice that we've seen these volunteers who are closer in who would go there much more often. And they were called on the carpet. So we were discouraged from going into the capital.

[Assistant] That wasn't for political reasons, it was just?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After three months.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um. We were discouraged, highly discouraged from coming in. In fact, they would send out a notice that we've seen these volunteers who are closer in who would go there much more often. And they were called on the carpet. So we were discouraged from going into the capital.

[Assistant] That wasn't for political reasons, it was just?

[User] Because you were expected to be in your site.

[Assistant] Okay. All right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I had worked out in Honduras 30 years before that.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] To write a check because they were deposited in a checking account in a private bank, the state owned bank, which had a branch in the town where I lived. And after the first time they let, had it clear. It took, you know, ten days to clear.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And after that they would honor the check right there.

[Assistant] So when you, when you, to whom did you request the transfer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I made it, it was really a dual transfer request because I discussed it with the Peace Corps or what were they called, program directors or area directors? Program director, like I say, over my area.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that was basically the answer is, well, working it out with your agency. If they're willing, then we'll be willing. So I did.

[Assistant] Oh interesting.

[User] Then they said, oh, would you come in here and we'll have you work in the office and then we'll send you out.

[Assistant] Who said that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Honduran agency that I was assigned to.

[Assistant] Which is?

[User] It's the National Agrarian Institute.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So I did that for about a month and nothing was happening. I moved into the capital city. Nothing happened. And then the cooperative agency for the country, they had, they knew about me because I was, they supervised this consumer co-op where I worked. And so they invited me to come to work for them. And they were looking for people like me.

[Assistant] And what were people like you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I did that for about a month and nothing was happening. I moved into the capital city. Nothing happened. And then the cooperative agency for the country, they had, they knew about me because I was, they supervised this consumer co-op where I worked. And so they invited me to come to work for them. And they were looking for people like me.

[Assistant] And what were people like you?

[User] Extensionists, people who knew how to read and write.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Or Peace Corps volunteers, they'd had Peace Corps volunteers before. At that time, they didn't have any other ones.

[Assistant] Now, again, which agency picked you up at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Extensionists, people who knew how to read and write.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Or Peace Corps volunteers, they'd had Peace Corps volunteers before. At that time, they didn't have any other ones.

[Assistant] Now, again, which agency picked you up at that point?

[User] The National Cooperative, uh.

[Assistant] But it's a national.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or Peace Corps volunteers, they'd had Peace Corps volunteers before. At that time, they didn't have any other ones.

[Assistant] Now, again, which agency picked you up at that point?

[User] The National Cooperative, uh.

[Assistant] But it's a national.

[User] Development. Cooperative Development Agency.

[Assistant] And you had made contact with them or they heard about you that you were a loose end?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The National Cooperative, uh.

[Assistant] But it's a national.

[User] Development. Cooperative Development Agency.

[Assistant] And you had made contact with them or they heard about you that you were a loose end?

[User] We knew about each other. They would audit the.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps played.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Development. Cooperative Development Agency.

[Assistant] And you had made contact with them or they heard about you that you were a loose end?

[User] We knew about each other. They would audit the.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps played.

[User] Actually they audited the co-op where I was. That was my first contact.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps had no role in this whole thing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We knew about each other. They would audit the.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps played.

[User] Actually they audited the co-op where I was. That was my first contact.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps had no role in this whole thing?

[User] Well, they did. They had to get permission, but they didn't actively. They knew that our, like a lot of other agencies probably, that it was hard to get a real job. I mean, even though the agency had asked for you, it was.

[Assistant] How many of the volunteers did the same thing, from the group you were with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually they audited the co-op where I was. That was my first contact.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps had no role in this whole thing?

[User] Well, they did. They had to get permission, but they didn't actively. They knew that our, like a lot of other agencies probably, that it was hard to get a real job. I mean, even though the agency had asked for you, it was.

[Assistant] How many of the volunteers did the same thing, from the group you were with?

[User] The ones that were assigned to the cooperative program, which would have made majority. Not very many at all. I don't, I don't know of any that actually changed.

[Assistant] Okay, so it wasn't common.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The ones that were assigned to the cooperative program, which would have made majority. Not very many at all. I don't, I don't know of any that actually changed.

[Assistant] Okay, so it wasn't common.

[User] Within my agency, there were the engineer. He might have. There was another one that was community development. He lasted with him, but he got, actually he found a job. He got aligned himself with the union of banana workers who were pretty involved with social activism.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] It was a different part of the country. So he didn't really work with the, he did officially, but I think he got to where he was working with the union.

[Assistant] Because if half the volunteers were, you know, coming in and saying.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a different part of the country. So he didn't really work with the, he did officially, but I think he got to where he was working with the union.

[Assistant] Because if half the volunteers were, you know, coming in and saying.

[User] In my agency, there's three or four of us.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So then I moved into the capital city and then within a month I go over to this, the National Co-operative Development Agency, to work as an extensionist. Basically there I went to visit co-ops and help them out.

[Assistant] Throughout the country?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my agency, there's three or four of us.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So then I moved into the capital city and then within a month I go over to this, the National Co-operative Development Agency, to work as an extensionist. Basically there I went to visit co-ops and help them out.

[Assistant] Throughout the country?

[User] Throughout the country.

[Assistant] You base being?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So then I moved into the capital city and then within a month I go over to this, the National Co-operative Development Agency, to work as an extensionist. Basically there I went to visit co-ops and help them out.

[Assistant] Throughout the country?

[User] Throughout the country.

[Assistant] You base being?

[User] Tegucigalpa, the capital.

[Assistant] Who arranged your living and everything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Throughout the country.

[Assistant] You base being?

[User] Tegucigalpa, the capital.

[Assistant] Who arranged your living and everything?

[User] I arranged my own.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And then you finally said to the Peace Corps, this is my new assignment. I'll be doing this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Tegucigalpa, the capital.

[Assistant] Who arranged your living and everything?

[User] I arranged my own.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And then you finally said to the Peace Corps, this is my new assignment. I'll be doing this.

[User] Well, I had to get permission to the Peace Corps to be able to do this transfer. And they were very willing because they knew what was going on. And they probably had a volunteer in this agency before.

[Assistant] Well, in a sense then, what was the justification of your leaving where you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had to get permission to the Peace Corps to be able to do this transfer. And they were very willing because they knew what was going on. And they probably had a volunteer in this agency before.

[Assistant] Well, in a sense then, what was the justification of your leaving where you were?

[User] Leaving the countryside?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No real job, no real support from the agency.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay. So there was no thought of your being replaced?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Leaving the countryside?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] No real job, no real support from the agency.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay. So there was no thought of your being replaced?

[User] No.

[Assistant] And how about the ag co-op friend?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No real job, no real support from the agency.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Okay. So there was no thought of your being replaced?

[User] No.

[Assistant] And how about the ag co-op friend?

[User] No, he stayed.

[Assistant] He stayed. Okay. Yeah. So you have a new job now, and it gets you traveling all over the country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] And how about the ag co-op friend?

[User] No, he stayed.

[Assistant] He stayed. Okay. Yeah. So you have a new job now, and it gets you traveling all over the country.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] By foot, by horse, by?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, he stayed.

[Assistant] He stayed. Okay. Yeah. So you have a new job now, and it gets you traveling all over the country.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] By foot, by horse, by?

[User] Jeep. There wasn't enough money to do it more than once a month. I ended up going out twice a month in a jeep. And then I would occasionally go by bus. But it was basically within a day's drive. And sometimes I would park the jeep and get on a burro and go to the small villages.

[Assistant] Were the visits arranged in advance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] By foot, by horse, by?

[User] Jeep. There wasn't enough money to do it more than once a month. I ended up going out twice a month in a jeep. And then I would occasionally go by bus. But it was basically within a day's drive. And sometimes I would park the jeep and get on a burro and go to the small villages.

[Assistant] Were the visits arranged in advance?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what would, what was the occasion of your coming to a place and what did you do when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The occasion usually was there would be a co-op that requested help. Of course, they're always requesting help.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And how often could the agency afford to send them out there to help them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] With their budget. Well, at least to have another city like mine could have it and a certain extent that was, they would access the.

[Assistant]
Who approved your itinerary or where you were going?

Well, the meeting boss and his boss and the director.

And they were all Honduran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] With their budget. Well, at least to have another city like mine could have it and a certain extent that was, they would access the.

[Assistant]
Who approved your itinerary or where you were going?

Well, the meeting boss and his boss and the director.

And they were all Honduran?

[User] Yeah. There were three levels of.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay.

[User] I was the fourth level down, I guess.

[Assistant] And what was your feeling about the work you did during the second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. There were three levels of.

[Assistant] Yeah, okay.

[User] I was the fourth level down, I guess.

[Assistant] And what was your feeling about the work you did during the second year?

[User] Much more rewarding. I felt I was being, doing something valuable and being kept busy at something a little more specific.

[Assistant] So when there was a co-op with a problem, you felt your showing up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the fourth level down, I guess.

[Assistant] And what was your feeling about the work you did during the second year?

[User] Much more rewarding. I felt I was being, doing something valuable and being kept busy at something a little more specific.

[Assistant] So when there was a co-op with a problem, you felt your showing up?

[User] Helped, yeah. Took some time to show them, reiterate that this is how you figure out simple interest.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Much more rewarding. I felt I was being, doing something valuable and being kept busy at something a little more specific.

[Assistant] So when there was a co-op with a problem, you felt your showing up?

[User] Helped, yeah. Took some time to show them, reiterate that this is how you figure out simple interest.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[User] You know, paper and pencil. You're dealing with people that have three, third and fourth. Maybe the person who was elected treasurer of the co-op had a fifth grade education. [phone rings]

[Assistant] Did you do any other travel during your, well, more in your second year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Helped, yeah. Took some time to show them, reiterate that this is how you figure out simple interest.

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[User] You know, paper and pencil. You're dealing with people that have three, third and fourth. Maybe the person who was elected treasurer of the co-op had a fifth grade education. [phone rings]

[Assistant] Did you do any other travel during your, well, more in your second year?

[User] Of course.

[Assistant] You did have leave time coming.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course.

[Assistant] You did have leave time coming.

[User] Well, after, um, let's see, I got sworn in as a volunteer in May. So in November I went to Argentina to get married.

[Assistant] Ah, okay.

[User] And that was another.

[Assistant] This is during your first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is my first year.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So actually I got a whole month off which theoretically I couldn't get that till after the first year, but I got permission for that. And that was a little bit of a, um, navigating through the Peace Corps bureaucracy. Because, you know, marrying a host country national was, all right, how are you going to support yourself? And usually that was pretty self-evident to somebody.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But marrying another American, of course, would be, they discouraged that highly. And I think they got a little looser on it as time went on. But they did ask legitimate questions. How are you going to support, I mean, you're given $100, started out at $125 a month. And I think in the capital city it was $150. How are you going to support your wife? Well, so the director of the school, of the high school there in the small town, said that they're always looking for an English teacher because the lady that taught English didn't want to continue doing it. We became friends with her.

[Assistant] Now, what small town is this, where you were living?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So actually I got a whole month off which theoretically I couldn't get that till after the first year, but I got permission for that. And that was a little bit of a, um, navigating through the Peace Corps bureaucracy. Because, you know, marrying a host country national was, all right, how are you going to support yourself? And usually that was pretty self-evident to somebody.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But marrying another American, of course, would be, they discouraged that highly. And I think they got a little looser on it as time went on. But they did ask legitimate questions. How are you going to support, I mean, you're given $100, started out at $125 a month. And I think in the capital city it was $150. How are you going to support your wife? Well, so the director of the school, of the high school there in the small town, said that they're always looking for an English teacher because the lady that taught English didn't want to continue doing it. We became friends with her.

[Assistant] Now, what small town is this, where you were living?

[User] Where I was living the first year.

[Assistant] Oh, the first year. Oh, that's right. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Where I was living the first year.

[Assistant] Oh, the first year. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

[User] November.

[Assistant] Got it.

[User] This was seven months into my first year. And so my wife had a job lined up teaching English. So that was. [tape break]

[Assistant] Okay. You're talking about your marriage.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] November.

[Assistant] Got it.

[User] This was seven months into my first year. And so my wife had a job lined up teaching English. So that was. [tape break]

[Assistant] Okay. You're talking about your marriage.

[User] So I got married, and my wife taught at the school. [tape break]

[Assistant] My apologies. We're okay. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I got married, and my wife taught at the school. [tape break]

[Assistant] My apologies. We're okay. Yeah.

[User] My wife taught English then for, what, five or six months? I mean, she had to, I think she had to do the same thing, prove that we were able to support ourselves in the capital. And she actually called the, uh, the binational center.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] She started off teaching that. And then she got a job at a bilingual elementary school and made twice as much as I did, at least.

[Assistant] Yeah. Your second year, you pretty much described. As you came, you know, within three months of time to terminate, did you have any sense of you need to accomplish X to have some feeling of closure about what your?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, I did not because it was like the closure was, usually it was a day at a time.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] In some cases it was working with groups and formation.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] For co-ops in the Tegucigalpa area. So in some of those cases, you would want to try to terminate something. But in general, in general, uh, there was a British volunteer that had come to work there probably six months after I did, and he was going to continue. So I thought he going to take over some of the projects anyway.

[Assistant] And were you able to recommend that you be replaced with another volunteer, or did they ask you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For co-ops in the Tegucigalpa area. So in some of those cases, you would want to try to terminate something. But in general, in general, uh, there was a British volunteer that had come to work there probably six months after I did, and he was going to continue. So I thought he going to take over some of the projects anyway.

[Assistant] And were you able to recommend that you be replaced with another volunteer, or did they ask you?

[User] I think, I don't think I was more than once asked that, but I probably said yes, it was something legitimate to do.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I can't recall if I was replaced. I was not immediately replaced. There was no program coming in right away.

[Assistant] And during the second year, there were no further political problems or were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think, I don't think I was more than once asked that, but I probably said yes, it was something legitimate to do.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And I can't recall if I was replaced. I was not immediately replaced. There was no program coming in right away.

[Assistant] And during the second year, there were no further political problems or were there?

[User] No, there were not. The border with El Salvador was still closed to Hondurans. But, I don't know, two or three months after the war they reopened the border for third country nationals to travel. Of course, this was the end of the, they had started the Central American Common Market and the war was the, I think they formally just stopped being a central common market on the 1st of January 1970. I know that they changed some things because. So anyway. That was one of the nails in the coffin of that kind of market.

[Assistant] As you came to the end, now you're a married man, which you hadn't been going in. What were your plans, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I can't recall if I was replaced. I was not immediately replaced. There was no program coming in right away.

[Assistant] And during the second year, there were no further political problems or were there?

[User] No, there were not. The border with El Salvador was still closed to Hondurans. But, I don't know, two or three months after the war they reopened the border for third country nationals to travel. Of course, this was the end of the, they had started the Central American Common Market and the war was the, I think they formally just stopped being a central common market on the 1st of January 1970. I know that they changed some things because. So anyway. That was one of the nails in the coffin of that kind of market.

[Assistant] As you came to the end, now you're a married man, which you hadn't been going in. What were your plans, I mean?

[User] Well, um.

[Assistant] The draft was clearly less of a concern.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, there were not. The border with El Salvador was still closed to Hondurans. But, I don't know, two or three months after the war they reopened the border for third country nationals to travel. Of course, this was the end of the, they had started the Central American Common Market and the war was the, I think they formally just stopped being a central common market on the 1st of January 1970. I know that they changed some things because. So anyway. That was one of the nails in the coffin of that kind of market.

[Assistant] As you came to the end, now you're a married man, which you hadn't been going in. What were your plans, I mean?

[User] Well, um.

[Assistant] The draft was clearly less of a concern.

[User] Yeah, I had found out in November on my honeymoon I found that I had a fairly high number in the draft.

[Assistant] In the lottery.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, um.

[Assistant] The draft was clearly less of a concern.

[User] Yeah, I had found out in November on my honeymoon I found that I had a fairly high number in the draft.

[Assistant] In the lottery.

[User] The lottery, the draft lottery. It wasn't clear whether or not they would get to 277 or not, but it became clear that I wasn't going to be drafted. And so that was a weight off my shoulder. And then what we were going to do, and I guess mainly what I wanted to do was to get a job. Well, I was interested in being a Peace Corps trainer, and I pursued that and begun a job as a Peace Corps trainer in Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Were you hired from the field or did you go back to Washington and have to go through a round of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was hired from the field.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah.

[User] I think I knew about it fairly close to, I extended a month past the May to June so my wife finished the school year.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Which was no big deal for me to extend.

[Assistant] Did your group have a termination conference in country? Do you recall the whole group coming together maybe a month before you were leaving?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think I knew about it fairly close to, I extended a month past the May to June so my wife finished the school year.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Which was no big deal for me to extend.

[Assistant] Did your group have a termination conference in country? Do you recall the whole group coming together maybe a month before you were leaving?

[User] I believe we did. I think we met after a year and I don't remember meeting again.

[Assistant] Yeah. It could be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which was no big deal for me to extend.

[Assistant] Did your group have a termination conference in country? Do you recall the whole group coming together maybe a month before you were leaving?

[User] I believe we did. I think we met after a year and I don't remember meeting again.

[Assistant] Yeah. It could be.

[User] And I know there were interviews because I went by the Peace Corps office once or twice a week. My office was a five minute walk away or a ten minute walk away from the Peace Corps office. I was there pretty often, so it was probably just a formality to have an exit conference, whereas other volunteers, of course, would come in from their sites and pass through for two or three days. I guess I did that, but.

[Assistant] So as you were leaving after two years, what was your sense of what you had accomplished or what did it, you know, what it all meant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I know there were interviews because I went by the Peace Corps office once or twice a week. My office was a five minute walk away or a ten minute walk away from the Peace Corps office. I was there pretty often, so it was probably just a formality to have an exit conference, whereas other volunteers, of course, would come in from their sites and pass through for two or three days. I guess I did that, but.

[Assistant] So as you were leaving after two years, what was your sense of what you had accomplished or what did it, you know, what it all meant?

[User] Well, I guess that I accomplished something that had been, the second year. The first year was, it was too bad that it took that long, the time to realize I wasn't going to accomplish anything. And with the years have gone by and having seen what other Peace Corps volunteers have done in we'll say similar circumstances, some did a lot more, a lot more in circumstances like that. I wasn't in this for site work.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That's my personality. And I felt good about what I had done with it the second year.

[Assistant] Right. And your Spanish must have been quite good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess that I accomplished something that had been, the second year. The first year was, it was too bad that it took that long, the time to realize I wasn't going to accomplish anything. And with the years have gone by and having seen what other Peace Corps volunteers have done in we'll say similar circumstances, some did a lot more, a lot more in circumstances like that. I wasn't in this for site work.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] That's my personality. And I felt good about what I had done with it the second year.

[Assistant] Right. And your Spanish must have been quite good.

[User] Yeah, I was three plus or four minus, I think.

[Assistant] Did they test you again toward the end? Sometimes they do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I was three plus or four minus, I think.

[Assistant] Did they test you again toward the end? Sometimes they do.

[User] They tested us I think at the year.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] They tested us and I was three plus, four minus? I was better.

[Assistant] Why did they seek you out for a trainer job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They tested us and I was three plus, four minus? I was better.

[Assistant] Why did they seek you out for a trainer job?

[User] Well, I don't know. I sought it out.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Or I heard about it. I don't recall on that.

[Assistant] So you went, did you have a chance to come back or to the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't know. I sought it out.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Or I heard about it. I don't recall on that.

[Assistant] So you went, did you have a chance to come back or to the U.S.?

[User] Yes, I had a car the last six months I was there, and my brothers had driven down in December of, uh, about five, six months before I was to end. About six months because I knew I could get a permit for six months. The problem, it just turned out I got a month extension, I think. And so especially the car was my wife's because the Peace Corps volunteer wasn't supposed to have a car, but.

[Assistant] Of course not. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or I heard about it. I don't recall on that.

[Assistant] So you went, did you have a chance to come back or to the U.S.?

[User] Yes, I had a car the last six months I was there, and my brothers had driven down in December of, uh, about five, six months before I was to end. About six months because I knew I could get a permit for six months. The problem, it just turned out I got a month extension, I think. And so especially the car was my wife's because the Peace Corps volunteer wasn't supposed to have a car, but.

[Assistant] Of course not. Yeah.

[User] But we could afford it. We used the car usually on the weekends.

[Assistant] Now, I know you didn't drive to Puerto Rico.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I had a car the last six months I was there, and my brothers had driven down in December of, uh, about five, six months before I was to end. About six months because I knew I could get a permit for six months. The problem, it just turned out I got a month extension, I think. And so especially the car was my wife's because the Peace Corps volunteer wasn't supposed to have a car, but.

[Assistant] Of course not. Yeah.

[User] But we could afford it. We used the car usually on the weekends.

[Assistant] Now, I know you didn't drive to Puerto Rico.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] You came back up to the U.S. and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But we could afford it. We used the car usually on the weekends.

[Assistant] Now, I know you didn't drive to Puerto Rico.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] You came back up to the U.S. and?

[User] We drove up from Honduras to Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Oh, great. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct.

[Assistant] You came back up to the U.S. and?

[User] We drove up from Honduras to Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Oh, great. Yeah.

[User] I guess about two weeks to do it. And obviously flew back to Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Now in going down to Puerto Rico, you and your wife went?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We drove up from Honduras to Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Oh, great. Yeah.

[User] I guess about two weeks to do it. And obviously flew back to Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Now in going down to Puerto Rico, you and your wife went?

[User] Yes, actually, I went ahead by a few weeks.

[Assistant] Okay. Did you live at the camp?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess about two weeks to do it. And obviously flew back to Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] Now in going down to Puerto Rico, you and your wife went?

[User] Yes, actually, I went ahead by a few weeks.

[Assistant] Okay. Did you live at the camp?

[User] No, the Peace Corps trainers had stopped being at the camp, I don't know, a year before that, the year after I left the camp, and was in Ponce, the second city of Puerto Rico. And the Catholic University there had the contract and I think it was their old campus or their high school that was used, a couple of buildings.

[Assistant] And who was, how long were you there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, actually, I went ahead by a few weeks.

[Assistant] Okay. Did you live at the camp?

[User] No, the Peace Corps trainers had stopped being at the camp, I don't know, a year before that, the year after I left the camp, and was in Ponce, the second city of Puerto Rico. And the Catholic University there had the contract and I think it was their old campus or their high school that was used, a couple of buildings.

[Assistant] And who was, how long were you there?

[User] We were there six months. So two different three-month contracts.

[Assistant] And what groups were coming through?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, the Peace Corps trainers had stopped being at the camp, I don't know, a year before that, the year after I left the camp, and was in Ponce, the second city of Puerto Rico. And the Catholic University there had the contract and I think it was their old campus or their high school that was used, a couple of buildings.

[Assistant] And who was, how long were you there?

[User] We were there six months. So two different three-month contracts.

[Assistant] And what groups were coming through?

[User] There was a Honduras group similar to what I've done. Nicaragua. Um. I know I worked with Central American groups.

[Assistant] And what was your role in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I got to do something about the complaints that our group had.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] I got involved in cross-cultural stuff also. Cross-cultural training, technical training, and language training. And of course, we got the language teachers when we could involved in the cross-cultural stuff also.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that speaks to how I viewed it, they might have called it something different. So, uh. And actually in a way, two different groups, it wasn't a full three months. Preparing for them and preparing for the next group.

[Assistant] And after the six months back to the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I got involved in cross-cultural stuff also. Cross-cultural training, technical training, and language training. And of course, we got the language teachers when we could involved in the cross-cultural stuff also.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that speaks to how I viewed it, they might have called it something different. So, uh. And actually in a way, two different groups, it wasn't a full three months. Preparing for them and preparing for the next group.

[Assistant] And after the six months back to the U.S.?

[User] After six months, we, uh, my daughter was born there in Puerto Rico as my service was ending. And then we went to Argentina from there.

[Assistant] Oh, and how long did you live in Argentina?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that speaks to how I viewed it, they might have called it something different. So, uh. And actually in a way, two different groups, it wasn't a full three months. Preparing for them and preparing for the next group.

[Assistant] And after the six months back to the U.S.?

[User] After six months, we, uh, my daughter was born there in Puerto Rico as my service was ending. And then we went to Argentina from there.

[Assistant] Oh, and how long did you live in Argentina?

[User] Five months.

[Assistant] And we're now in San Antonio.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Five months.

[Assistant] And we're now in San Antonio.

[User] So we came back and we lived in, uh, got a job in California and worked there for six months, then went to Florida for 13 years.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And been here since 1986.

[Assistant] Have you particularly tried to be in touch with or recontact people you worked with in Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And been here since 1986.

[Assistant] Have you particularly tried to be in touch with or recontact people you worked with in Honduras?

[User] Uh, some. But there's one person I maintain contact with that, uh, I guess I'll see him in November.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he was in my general area of the country. He'd some and see us once or twice, once a month maybe. He was single, so he'd visit more often than other volunteers who were married. It turned out that he extended the third year in Colombia, and then we visited him on the way to Argentina from Puerto Rico. Then six months or eight months after we left from each of our country. And then his roommate, his Peace Corps roommate there in Colombia, came to Miami where we were living by then. And we became best friends. He was a Peace Corps volunteer in Colombia and became a best friend.

[Assistant] Yeah. How would you assess, you know, the effect of Peace Corps on your life and the things you've done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, some. But there's one person I maintain contact with that, uh, I guess I'll see him in November.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And he was in my general area of the country. He'd some and see us once or twice, once a month maybe. He was single, so he'd visit more often than other volunteers who were married. It turned out that he extended the third year in Colombia, and then we visited him on the way to Argentina from Puerto Rico. Then six months or eight months after we left from each of our country. And then his roommate, his Peace Corps roommate there in Colombia, came to Miami where we were living by then. And we became best friends. He was a Peace Corps volunteer in Colombia and became a best friend.

[Assistant] Yeah. How would you assess, you know, the effect of Peace Corps on your life and the things you've done?

[User] Oh, I would say it was pretty important in my life and it affected me in what I wanted to do. I enjoyed working with people. I worked for the YMCA for 17 years. I worked in another nonprofit for a while and now I'm a business consultant, so I'm helping people with businesses. So yeah, I guess people-oriented businesses.

[Assistant] You never went into teaching?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And he was in my general area of the country. He'd some and see us once or twice, once a month maybe. He was single, so he'd visit more often than other volunteers who were married. It turned out that he extended the third year in Colombia, and then we visited him on the way to Argentina from Puerto Rico. Then six months or eight months after we left from each of our country. And then his roommate, his Peace Corps roommate there in Colombia, came to Miami where we were living by then. And we became best friends. He was a Peace Corps volunteer in Colombia and became a best friend.

[Assistant] Yeah. How would you assess, you know, the effect of Peace Corps on your life and the things you've done?

[User] Oh, I would say it was pretty important in my life and it affected me in what I wanted to do. I enjoyed working with people. I worked for the YMCA for 17 years. I worked in another nonprofit for a while and now I'm a business consultant, so I'm helping people with businesses. So yeah, I guess people-oriented businesses.

[Assistant] You never went into teaching?

[User] No. I teach workshops now, but it's not really teaching.

[Assistant] Well, yeah, it's special. Anything else you'd like to add to the story?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was in a war, which I related already. A real war, around it. But my favorite story in Honduras was, I mentioned earlier that we had franking privileges. I call it franking privileges.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah.

[User] We could send free telegrams, but we had to do it in Spanish. They would charge us if they had foreign words and then they'd charge you double whatever the rate was.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
Well, near the end of my time in Catacamas in the rural area, one day the telegraph boy knocked on my door and said, you have a phone call. I said, I do? Where? He says, oh, it's at the telegraph office. Because usually they would deliver a telegram to you. You don't have to go to the telegraph office. And I said, okay, what do I need? Oh, we have to go there. All right. So I went there and I saw that they had a telephone, actually, and it was a sign that there was a phone. So then they rang up, I don't know. I said, who called me? And they said, well, it was from down the road at the departmental capital, which was about 30 miles away. The Peace Corps volunteers down there were calling.

And so I said, well, wait, we'll call. And they lived fairly close to the telegraph office also. So about five or 10 minutes later they got on the phone and we talked. I think we talked for 3 minutes, and they had up a sign that said 3 minutes, $1 or one lempira. And then I said, well, one lempira will it be? And they said, no, it's two because you spoke in English. And I said, what? I went like that. What do you mean? They just started laughing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Just to mention, your daughter became a Peace Corps volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We could send free telegrams, but we had to do it in Spanish. They would charge us if they had foreign words and then they'd charge you double whatever the rate was.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
Well, near the end of my time in Catacamas in the rural area, one day the telegraph boy knocked on my door and said, you have a phone call. I said, I do? Where? He says, oh, it's at the telegraph office. Because usually they would deliver a telegram to you. You don't have to go to the telegraph office. And I said, okay, what do I need? Oh, we have to go there. All right. So I went there and I saw that they had a telephone, actually, and it was a sign that there was a phone. So then they rang up, I don't know. I said, who called me? And they said, well, it was from down the road at the departmental capital, which was about 30 miles away. The Peace Corps volunteers down there were calling.

And so I said, well, wait, we'll call. And they lived fairly close to the telegraph office also. So about five or 10 minutes later they got on the phone and we talked. I think we talked for 3 minutes, and they had up a sign that said 3 minutes, $1 or one lempira. And then I said, well, one lempira will it be? And they said, no, it's two because you spoke in English. And I said, what? I went like that. What do you mean? They just started laughing.

[Assistant] Yeah. Just to mention, your daughter became a Peace Corps volunteer.

[User] Yeah, my daughter became a Peace Corps volunteer in Paraguay.

[Assistant] Was it, did it surprise you or is it part of the family tradition that it happened or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, my daughter became a Peace Corps volunteer in Paraguay.

[Assistant] Was it, did it surprise you or is it part of the family tradition that it happened or?

[User] It did not surprise us.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think it surprised us how tough she turned out to be in a situation similar to what I had. And she did a lot more than I did in the less than two years there.

[Assistant] I'd love, there'll be an interview with her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did not surprise us.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think it surprised us how tough she turned out to be in a situation similar to what I had. And she did a lot more than I did in the less than two years there.

[Assistant] I'd love, there'll be an interview with her.

[User] So we're proud of her.

[Assistant] And your grandchildren of course, you look forward to, perhaps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it surprised us how tough she turned out to be in a situation similar to what I had. And she did a lot more than I did in the less than two years there.

[Assistant] I'd love, there'll be an interview with her.

[User] So we're proud of her.

[Assistant] And your grandchildren of course, you look forward to, perhaps.

[User] Perhaps we'll join up when my grandson goes in the Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Yeah. Anything else?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a good day. It was kind of a memory of a lifetime. Yes, I’m good.

[Assistant] The COTS program allowed you an opportunity as such a small and a young company, and these last five, six years have been so full. What kind of impact do you think that this opportunity has had on your company, to put you where you want to be for the future?

[User] We would not be the company that we are today without the support of NASA. I think both technically as well as financially, and the kind of moral support. I don’t know what the world would look like without that program for SpaceX. It would look very different. We wouldn’t have this beautiful factory; we wouldn’t have this lovely conference room with these incredibly comfortable chairs. Yes, this is as much NASA as it is SpaceX here. We’d probably be limping along, trying to change the world, but limping instead of running.

[Assistant] Do you feel from what you’ve learned these last years that you are in a position now to possibly even change the market more?

[User] Oh, there’s no question. No question, we already have. As a matter of fact, last year any commercial mission that was competed in the Falcon 9 class we won. Here in the U.S. and overseas. So NASA helped develop a capability where the U.S. can finally regain dominance in launch. We owned it in the ’80s and the early ’90s, and we just let it go.

[Assistant]
Rebecca, do you have some questions?

One thing I wanted to ask—your role is officially the business manager, business developer. But you’re also very technically competent; you have degrees in engineering. Did that impact the way that you interacted with NASA? I have to imagine it helped in the negotiations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s true. I mean, we have our hurricane problems here but not like y’all. No, it never entered my mind. I wanted to work in wind tunnels.

[Assistant] You mentioned that—that you wanted to be an aerospace engineer, but your father was an electrical engineer. Was it moving here and seeing the wind tunnels that made you want to do that?

[User] Yes. Hell, if we had stayed in Tennessee, I’d would probably have ended up driving a milk truck. That wouldn’t have pleased my father, but, for some reason, I wasn’t doing that well. Right after moving up here, I started getting A’s in math. Maybe the teachers were easier up here than they were in Tennessee. If I had been a 23- or 24-year old, very ambitious engineer with maybe delusions of grandeur, I might have done something like that, but I don’t like change.

[Assistant] You mentioned that the NACA was more under the radar. I know, once NASA came into being, there was more tension to anything involved with NASA.

[User] You had to succeed.

[Assistant] Did that change the work environment as far as what you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Hell, if we had stayed in Tennessee, I’d would probably have ended up driving a milk truck. That wouldn’t have pleased my father, but, for some reason, I wasn’t doing that well. Right after moving up here, I started getting A’s in math. Maybe the teachers were easier up here than they were in Tennessee. If I had been a 23- or 24-year old, very ambitious engineer with maybe delusions of grandeur, I might have done something like that, but I don’t like change.

[Assistant] You mentioned that the NACA was more under the radar. I know, once NASA came into being, there was more tension to anything involved with NASA.

[User] You had to succeed.

[Assistant] Did that change the work environment as far as what you remember?

[User] No, because, again, the areas I worked with, even though it was hypersonic blowdown tunnel and we were modifying the tunnel, of course, we had the system now. We could see the flow. It was like we had our own toy to play with. Like I said, the models are like this. They’re much, much smaller. Langley pioneered in strain gauge balances no bigger than your finger that you could use. Over at the Free Flight Tunnel, the balances were these big, box-like things, but it was stuff I couldn’t tear up. These little balances are easy to break and tear up. Every day was something new in a helium tunnel. It really was. It disappoints me that they don’t give it the credit, but I’ll tell you one thing, Gene Love gave it the credit. He wanted that tunnel going with him. That man was really special.

[Assistant] Through your years here, the technology changed quite a bit from using human computers to actual computers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’re welcome.

[Assistant] I’d like to begin by asking you how closely you followed the fledgling space program in the late 1950s and early ‘60s.

[User] Well, not really very close. In the late ‘50s, I was basically working on the Mississippi River for the Corps of Engineers as a part of a river revetment team, and I was working as a clerk at that time. I wasn’t in school or anything else.\n\n And then in 1960, I decided to go back and go to college, and I didn’t follow the space program directly very much until my senior year when I was looking around for employment post graduation.

[Assistant] How did your college studies prepare you for your eventual career at MSC [Manned Spacecraft Center]?

[User] Very well. I spent four years at Christian Brothers College in Memphis [Tennessee], and it was primarily at that time an engineering school, and I had a very good background in theoretical engineering from an electrical engineering standpoint with specialties in automatic control systems. And that, in fact, is what I spent the first part of my career at NASA doing is working with automated control systems for the onboard Apollo and, later on, Shuttle.

[Assistant] Could you describe what automatic controls are in a general sense?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, not really very close. In the late ‘50s, I was basically working on the Mississippi River for the Corps of Engineers as a part of a river revetment team, and I was working as a clerk at that time. I wasn’t in school or anything else.\n\n And then in 1960, I decided to go back and go to college, and I didn’t follow the space program directly very much until my senior year when I was looking around for employment post graduation.

[Assistant] How did your college studies prepare you for your eventual career at MSC [Manned Spacecraft Center]?

[User] Very well. I spent four years at Christian Brothers College in Memphis [Tennessee], and it was primarily at that time an engineering school, and I had a very good background in theoretical engineering from an electrical engineering standpoint with specialties in automatic control systems. And that, in fact, is what I spent the first part of my career at NASA doing is working with automated control systems for the onboard Apollo and, later on, Shuttle.

[Assistant] Could you describe what automatic controls are in a general sense?

[User] Basically, automatic controls are set up and they are not necessarily there to entirely replace a crew, but they are there to enhance their capability. They basically pick up signals from sensors on the vehicle and feed those through processing to make sure that the vehicle is stable and moving where you want it to move. And so they pick up signals and through their processing, give you control commands to take the craft wherever you want to do it. They are not just for spacecraft. They are for any kind of craft. You have automatic controls in your cars these days that do things.\n\n I’m more of an egghead theoretical type of guy from a math standpoint, so my interests were in design, and as I matured, I got into the hardware development and hardware testing.

[Assistant] How did you find out about the job opportunity at the Manned Spacecraft Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very well. I spent four years at Christian Brothers College in Memphis [Tennessee], and it was primarily at that time an engineering school, and I had a very good background in theoretical engineering from an electrical engineering standpoint with specialties in automatic control systems. And that, in fact, is what I spent the first part of my career at NASA doing is working with automated control systems for the onboard Apollo and, later on, Shuttle.

[Assistant] Could you describe what automatic controls are in a general sense?

[User] Basically, automatic controls are set up and they are not necessarily there to entirely replace a crew, but they are there to enhance their capability. They basically pick up signals from sensors on the vehicle and feed those through processing to make sure that the vehicle is stable and moving where you want it to move. And so they pick up signals and through their processing, give you control commands to take the craft wherever you want to do it. They are not just for spacecraft. They are for any kind of craft. You have automatic controls in your cars these days that do things.\n\n I’m more of an egghead theoretical type of guy from a math standpoint, so my interests were in design, and as I matured, I got into the hardware development and hardware testing.

[Assistant] How did you find out about the job opportunity at the Manned Spacecraft Center?

[User] A guy named Burney Goodwin came to our school to interview is how I got originally acquainted with the, at that time, Manned Spacecraft Center, and I interviewed with him, and then he went on back to Houston [Texas], and I got a call from a guy named David [A.] Beckman, who ultimately offered me a position, and I accepted, to go to work in June of 1964.

[Assistant] What was the position you were offered?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Basically, automatic controls are set up and they are not necessarily there to entirely replace a crew, but they are there to enhance their capability. They basically pick up signals from sensors on the vehicle and feed those through processing to make sure that the vehicle is stable and moving where you want it to move. And so they pick up signals and through their processing, give you control commands to take the craft wherever you want to do it. They are not just for spacecraft. They are for any kind of craft. You have automatic controls in your cars these days that do things.\n\n I’m more of an egghead theoretical type of guy from a math standpoint, so my interests were in design, and as I matured, I got into the hardware development and hardware testing.

[Assistant] How did you find out about the job opportunity at the Manned Spacecraft Center?

[User] A guy named Burney Goodwin came to our school to interview is how I got originally acquainted with the, at that time, Manned Spacecraft Center, and I interviewed with him, and then he went on back to Houston [Texas], and I got a call from a guy named David [A.] Beckman, who ultimately offered me a position, and I accepted, to go to work in June of 1964.

[Assistant] What was the position you were offered?

[User] The position that I was offered was basically an electronic systems planning guy over in what was at that time the Flight Control Division in the Operations Directorate. After I got there, I found out that wasn’t my cup of tea. They were taking systems that were already developed and tested and defining their use in the operations, and I was more interested in theoretical. So after I was there for about six months, I transferred into the Engineering Directorate to get involved with the basic design and development activities.

[Assistant] Where did you first live when you first came to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A guy named Burney Goodwin came to our school to interview is how I got originally acquainted with the, at that time, Manned Spacecraft Center, and I interviewed with him, and then he went on back to Houston [Texas], and I got a call from a guy named David [A.] Beckman, who ultimately offered me a position, and I accepted, to go to work in June of 1964.

[Assistant] What was the position you were offered?

[User] The position that I was offered was basically an electronic systems planning guy over in what was at that time the Flight Control Division in the Operations Directorate. After I got there, I found out that wasn’t my cup of tea. They were taking systems that were already developed and tested and defining their use in the operations, and I was more interested in theoretical. So after I was there for about six months, I transferred into the Engineering Directorate to get involved with the basic design and development activities.

[Assistant] Where did you first live when you first came to Houston?

[User] I lived over off of Navigation and 75th Street in a boardinghouse.

[Assistant] Did a lot of people live in boardinghouses when they first came to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The position that I was offered was basically an electronic systems planning guy over in what was at that time the Flight Control Division in the Operations Directorate. After I got there, I found out that wasn’t my cup of tea. They were taking systems that were already developed and tested and defining their use in the operations, and I was more interested in theoretical. So after I was there for about six months, I transferred into the Engineering Directorate to get involved with the basic design and development activities.

[Assistant] Where did you first live when you first came to Houston?

[User] I lived over off of Navigation and 75th Street in a boardinghouse.

[Assistant] Did a lot of people live in boardinghouses when they first came to Houston?

[User] Oh, they lived almost anywhere they could get. Getting an apartment at that time was tough because there weren’t enough apartments around. So I lived in a boardinghouse for a couple of months, and then I got an apartment at the [Glenview] Apartments just south of Gulfgate on the Gulf Freeway, and I stayed there for, oh, about two and a half years.

[Assistant] When you came down, was the Center open? Was the Engineering Directorate onsite at that point, or still offsite?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I lived over off of Navigation and 75th Street in a boardinghouse.

[Assistant] Did a lot of people live in boardinghouses when they first came to Houston?

[User] Oh, they lived almost anywhere they could get. Getting an apartment at that time was tough because there weren’t enough apartments around. So I lived in a boardinghouse for a couple of months, and then I got an apartment at the [Glenview] Apartments just south of Gulfgate on the Gulf Freeway, and I stayed there for, oh, about two and a half years.

[Assistant] When you came down, was the Center open? Was the Engineering Directorate onsite at that point, or still offsite?

[User] When I got there, I went to work down at Wayside Drive in what was then an Oshman’s building, which was across the street from the Houston Petroleum Center, and I went to work there one week, and the next week I ended up moving into Building 30 onsite. At that time, I was in the Flight Control Division.\n\n When I arrived in Houston, I reported to work at what was then Building 2, is now Building 1, in Room 960. It was full of people, and everybody got signed up and basically were sent out to report to where they would work. So I ended up going back in to Houston and working for about a week at the HPC Oshman’s warehouse complex there at Wayside Drive. Then I moved into Building 30, and I stayed in Building 30 until I moved over into Building 16, which was the engineering building at that time, the Guidance and Control Division.

[Assistant] When you moved over to the Engineering Directorate, who was your boss at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, they lived almost anywhere they could get. Getting an apartment at that time was tough because there weren’t enough apartments around. So I lived in a boardinghouse for a couple of months, and then I got an apartment at the [Glenview] Apartments just south of Gulfgate on the Gulf Freeway, and I stayed there for, oh, about two and a half years.

[Assistant] When you came down, was the Center open? Was the Engineering Directorate onsite at that point, or still offsite?

[User] When I got there, I went to work down at Wayside Drive in what was then an Oshman’s building, which was across the street from the Houston Petroleum Center, and I went to work there one week, and the next week I ended up moving into Building 30 onsite. At that time, I was in the Flight Control Division.\n\n When I arrived in Houston, I reported to work at what was then Building 2, is now Building 1, in Room 960. It was full of people, and everybody got signed up and basically were sent out to report to where they would work. So I ended up going back in to Houston and working for about a week at the HPC Oshman’s warehouse complex there at Wayside Drive. Then I moved into Building 30, and I stayed in Building 30 until I moved over into Building 16, which was the engineering building at that time, the Guidance and Control Division.

[Assistant] When you moved over to the Engineering Directorate, who was your boss at that point?

[User] My immediate supervisor at that point was Tom [Thomas P.] Lins, and my Branch Chief at that time was Kenneth [J.] Cox, and that basically was my chain of command for quite a while.

[Assistant] What was your first assignment when you started working in the Directorate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I got there, I went to work down at Wayside Drive in what was then an Oshman’s building, which was across the street from the Houston Petroleum Center, and I went to work there one week, and the next week I ended up moving into Building 30 onsite. At that time, I was in the Flight Control Division.\n\n When I arrived in Houston, I reported to work at what was then Building 2, is now Building 1, in Room 960. It was full of people, and everybody got signed up and basically were sent out to report to where they would work. So I ended up going back in to Houston and working for about a week at the HPC Oshman’s warehouse complex there at Wayside Drive. Then I moved into Building 30, and I stayed in Building 30 until I moved over into Building 16, which was the engineering building at that time, the Guidance and Control Division.

[Assistant] When you moved over to the Engineering Directorate, who was your boss at that point?

[User] My immediate supervisor at that point was Tom [Thomas P.] Lins, and my Branch Chief at that time was Kenneth [J.] Cox, and that basically was my chain of command for quite a while.

[Assistant] What was your first assignment when you started working in the Directorate?

[User] I guess my first assignment was to help a guy put together a simulation of the lunar landing module, a guy named, and another name for you, Clarke [T.] Hackler was the guy that I was assisting.

[Assistant] What did that entail, creating this simulation?