[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did go. I did go. See, that was one of the things about me. I’m not a sweet, little, retiring person, because I would never have survived at least the first ten, fifteen years. It’s much better now, I think, but I still think there’s a long ways to go.

[Assistant] Before you came to the Manned Spacecraft Center [Houston, Texas] [MSC], you worked a little while at Patrick Air Force Base [Florida].

[User] I was a mathematician, yes, as a junior mathematician.

[Assistant] Was that a correct title, or was that just a title to get you in the door.

[User] Well, I didn’t have my degree, and so they did hire—the truth—my dad was Inspector General of Patrick Air Force Base. When I wanted to come home for the summer, he said, “If you want to fly [home],” and, of course, I had a Siamese cat and a cockatiel and everything. “If you want to fly, you’ll have to get a summer job.” Jeanne had never worked before. “If you don’t want to fly, and you don’t want to work, then you can take the bus, and you don’t have to work this summer.”\n\n My dad and mom never made me do anything [before], but this was something—okay, I said, “Fine. I’ll work.”\n\n So he got me the job at the Tech [technical] lab over here on Patrick, and I really enjoyed it. I loved the work. At the time almost everything was classified. The nose cones, when they would separate—they have all these ballistic cameras [where] the shutters [are] timed, and so it was like solving a puzzle. You would get all these photographs and try to match the different angles of the photographs to the sequence, and so it was solving puzzles, which is my forte, anyway. It’s always been. So I enjoyed that. But I did that for a year, and then I went and finished my degree.

[Assistant] At least it was some exposure to that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Okay, well, now you’ve got to help me. I don’t know where I am.

[Assistant] Well, tell us about when you said that you interviewed at MSC, so you packed up your stuff and moved to Houston by yourself and began a new career.

[User] Yes, [I interviewed at KSC for the job at MSC—that way the MSC group could learn about me without having me travel to Houston prior to their decision], got an apartment and started down there. Right, yes. That was exciting. I enjoyed it. Well, I was an Air Force brat. I was used to moving, so I was always ready to move. “When is it time to move?” you know. So always something different. But I loved it. I was used to walking into schools, “Here I am. I’m new.” [Laughs]\n\n So I just walked in, and then they went, “Oh, yeah. What are we going to do with her?” [Laughs] You could just see it, like “Oh, my.”

[Assistant] When you started there, you mentioned some of those first projects that you had worked, like for Warren North, with Dean Grimm. Tell us about, you know, here space was new, and the nation was caught up in the space race, and you were beginning your whole new life in that, and then you’ve got these very unique projects. Share with us about some of those and about what you did. We have talked to people who were in the middle of them, and so they completely understand it, but then there’s those of us that didn’t watch those very unique ways that you tested some of the—

[User] You were too young. [Laughs]

[Assistant] We were listening, but we weren’t involved in the testing of it, so explain that to us. For instance, when you were talking about the Agena.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I was in the back rooms whenever there would be a problem with an experiment or something. What I would do, I lived right across the street from JSC; I always lived in an apartment very close, because I was always over there at any hour. They would just call you at a minute’s notice or something, and sometimes we had to monitor the temperature when that shield broke away. I think Burt talked about all that. Had to monitor the temperature, and he helped like that, but I could not go out on the floor, so it was always in the background.\n\n Mostly the work I did was preparing for the flight. The crew items would be like we talked about having the way to sight on the window, how you did that; procedures for how you tracked landmarks, because I did, I set up a bunch of simulations up at Boeing [Airplane Company]. I did the lunar landmarks, too.\n\n They put a big model of the Moon, and then you had a TV camera, and you were flying the LM. This was one of the first early simulations, which later they got very sophisticated. Now they’re extreme. You can hardly tell the difference, that you’re not going to the Moon. But that was one of the very early ones where the TV camera would scan along the craters and things like that. I did that.

[Assistant] You set those up as well?

[User] Yes, I coordinated the requirements from the crew’s point of view to the contractor developing that, and would go and help fly it originally. Then you schedule some of the crewmen to come up and make sure, and get their input to make sure it was implemented, the changes; things like that.

[Assistant] Did you fly the simulators as well?

[User] Yes, I got to fly them.

[Assistant] And try those procedures out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I coordinated the requirements from the crew’s point of view to the contractor developing that, and would go and help fly it originally. Then you schedule some of the crewmen to come up and make sure, and get their input to make sure it was implemented, the changes; things like that.

[Assistant] Did you fly the simulators as well?

[User] Yes, I got to fly them.

[Assistant] And try those procedures out?

[User] Yes, I was never very good with the LM landing, because I wasn’t a pilot, and I didn’t have much practice on that one, because everybody wanted to fly it, and I didn’t have that priority. [Laughs] If [Alan B.] Shepard or somebody came and said, “I’d like to fly it,” well, I had to get out. So, yes, but I enjoyed it. It was lots of fun.

[Assistant] Did you get feedback from the crew about what worked well and what didn’t? Did it come back to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I got to fly them.

[Assistant] And try those procedures out?

[User] Yes, I was never very good with the LM landing, because I wasn’t a pilot, and I didn’t have much practice on that one, because everybody wanted to fly it, and I didn’t have that priority. [Laughs] If [Alan B.] Shepard or somebody came and said, “I’d like to fly it,” well, I had to get out. So, yes, but I enjoyed it. It was lots of fun.

[Assistant] Did you get feedback from the crew about what worked well and what didn’t? Did it come back to you?

[User] Oh yes. On the things I was working with, that’s what you would actually do. You’d go and work something out and get it set up, and then you’d try to schedule different crewmen to come in and evaluate it, and you’d take their evaluations, and there is where the problem was. You’d have five astronauts flying it, and they’d have five different opinions, and then you would try to stay alive resolving that. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Because I’m sure they were all correct in their thoughts, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As I say, it was a jury-rig, but it was different. Well, it’s on the Space Station now, and then the one that Eric and I just did before I left is the flexible shield, which is really great, because that way you put a foam in behind the ceramic, and you can carry it up and deploy it wherever you need it. So that can be used. I don’t know that anyone is using it yet, but that was a good one.\n\n The reason that one was such a problem is Boeing came to the lab, a couple of people, and they saw it, and went and patented it. Yes, we fought that for many years. But we knew what we were talking about, so we could take everything they didn’t know to put on it, and we did. [Laughs] Eric and I got the rest of it. Yes, that was a couple of bad things, but that felt like me fighting Goliath.

[Assistant] No kidding.

[User] Of course, I sort of did that my whole career, but, you know, I enjoyed that. I’d go home frustrated, and as I said, just of anger, but no, I enjoy a good fight. I guess that’s the only reason I did survive, because a lot of people wanted to kill me. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I can imagine. [Laughs]

[User] But I think most of it in the end, I think there was mutual respect, I think, at the end. At least, I know the people that would call me the cultist, it was Bob [Robert E.] Bobola and [Clarke] Covington and all of them, they would come over to the lab and have a private meeting and look at all the stuff we’d done. So they really did appreciate it. It was just one more problem they didn’t need. There were so many problems other than those. I wouldn’t want to be a manager of one of those programs. I know; I used to have to go say, “Well, this one you’ve got to listen to.” [Laughs]

[Assistant] Lots of details.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, I sort of did that my whole career, but, you know, I enjoyed that. I’d go home frustrated, and as I said, just of anger, but no, I enjoy a good fight. I guess that’s the only reason I did survive, because a lot of people wanted to kill me. [Laughs]

[Assistant] I can imagine. [Laughs]

[User] But I think most of it in the end, I think there was mutual respect, I think, at the end. At least, I know the people that would call me the cultist, it was Bob [Robert E.] Bobola and [Clarke] Covington and all of them, they would come over to the lab and have a private meeting and look at all the stuff we’d done. So they really did appreciate it. It was just one more problem they didn’t need. There were so many problems other than those. I wouldn’t want to be a manager of one of those programs. I know; I used to have to go say, “Well, this one you’ve got to listen to.” [Laughs]

[Assistant] Lots of details.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you involved in any way with after [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L accident], looking at anything or any part of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I think most of it in the end, I think there was mutual respect, I think, at the end. At least, I know the people that would call me the cultist, it was Bob [Robert E.] Bobola and [Clarke] Covington and all of them, they would come over to the lab and have a private meeting and look at all the stuff we’d done. So they really did appreciate it. It was just one more problem they didn’t need. There were so many problems other than those. I wouldn’t want to be a manager of one of those programs. I know; I used to have to go say, “Well, this one you’ve got to listen to.” [Laughs]

[Assistant] Lots of details.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you involved in any way with after [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L accident], looking at anything or any part of that?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] I was just curious.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Were you involved in any way with after [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L accident], looking at anything or any part of that?

[User] No. No.

[Assistant] I was just curious.

[User] By then I was over in Space and Life Sciences. Now, on [Space Shuttle] Columbia [STS-107 accident], the guys that worked in my lab, Eric Christiansen and Justin [H.] Kerr—years before that when I first started my lab, I was sitting at my computer, and this person walked in. He’s six-foot-three, I think, and I’m looking up, and he’s got this green suit on with the shoulder pads, good-looking kid. He said, “Hi, I’m Justin Kerr, and I’m a co-op, and I want to work in your lab.”\n\n I said, “Do you know what you’re talking about?” Because we were very unpopular.\n\n He said, “Yep.” So that was so cute. Yes, but he was excellent. I think Justin is going to be head of JSC one of these days. Anyway, but he’s no longer working in hypervelocity, but he did for a long time. He was really good. But with Eric and Justin—and I think Justin just quit working in the hypervelocity about two years ago, so I don’t know if you’ve talked to him at all or anything. Well, he’s just getting married this month.

[Assistant] A little busy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. What they did, Justin did run the program over at San Antonio [Texas] at Southwest Research, where they launched the foam. Those are the people that we had always worked with over there. I don’t know if you remember that. When they were showing that big hole, that was Justin that ran that program, so he was running that. That was an interesting one, but that wasn’t at orbital velocity. That was at a lower velocity, but, still anything moving at those velocities can cause problems.\n\n I wish I had thought about my ceramic fabric about hurricanes. That’s what they’re using it for now. They make hurricane drapes, where you would just drape it down. It will stop quite a bit of stuff, yes. You put a little bit of Kevlar in there, which Kevlar is better for lower velocities, because it’s strength, whereas Nextel is a ceramic, where it shocks; it shocks the other. They take those now, and you just unroll it as a thing. Then Eric and I could have had some money, but we didn’t think about that. We were too busy thinking about space. [Laughs]

[Assistant] About space. Important at the time.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Before you moved over to Life Sciences, because we had mentioned earlier about the seventies being such a change for the whole NASA culture, they announced that they were going to hire a new group of astronauts and include women and minorities. Did you think about applying?

[User] Yes, but at that time [it was my age]. Or Al is going to tell you about age; that’s his biggest thing, yes. All the guys that worked for him were younger. [Laughs] Then when John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] flew. [Laughter]

[Assistant] So that affected your decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Before you moved over to Life Sciences, because we had mentioned earlier about the seventies being such a change for the whole NASA culture, they announced that they were going to hire a new group of astronauts and include women and minorities. Did you think about applying?

[User] Yes, but at that time [it was my age]. Or Al is going to tell you about age; that’s his biggest thing, yes. All the guys that worked for him were younger. [Laughs] Then when John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] flew. [Laughter]

[Assistant] So that affected your decision?

[User] Right. I didn’t. I applied earlier back when no women were. I guess it was a nun and myself that applied. Of course, we were laughed off of it.

[Assistant] At least they remembered that you were there…. What can you tell us that you’d like to tell us about the changes for roles for women from the time that you went to work at MSC to the time you left JSC?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, but at that time [it was my age]. Or Al is going to tell you about age; that’s his biggest thing, yes. All the guys that worked for him were younger. [Laughs] Then when John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] flew. [Laughter]

[Assistant] So that affected your decision?

[User] Right. I didn’t. I applied earlier back when no women were. I guess it was a nun and myself that applied. Of course, we were laughed off of it.

[Assistant] At least they remembered that you were there…. What can you tell us that you’d like to tell us about the changes for roles for women from the time that you went to work at MSC to the time you left JSC?

[User] Oh, they’ve changed. I was so proud when they selected the first women astronauts. I was so pleased. I knew that the time that they did that, they had been ordered to. Well, Dwayne would know the truth about this, but most of the stories that I told, that they had to pick some, and our certain most favorite person, George Abbey, kept not doing it until he had to. But I’m so glad he had to. [Laughs] And I think they were wonderful, every one of them, every one of them that I saw. I didn’t know any of them real well. …

[Assistant] What about the other roles other than the astronauts? You were one of the first female engineers. Did you see more and more start to come in, or was it a slow coming?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I didn’t. I applied earlier back when no women were. I guess it was a nun and myself that applied. Of course, we were laughed off of it.

[Assistant] At least they remembered that you were there…. What can you tell us that you’d like to tell us about the changes for roles for women from the time that you went to work at MSC to the time you left JSC?

[User] Oh, they’ve changed. I was so proud when they selected the first women astronauts. I was so pleased. I knew that the time that they did that, they had been ordered to. Well, Dwayne would know the truth about this, but most of the stories that I told, that they had to pick some, and our certain most favorite person, George Abbey, kept not doing it until he had to. But I’m so glad he had to. [Laughs] And I think they were wonderful, every one of them, every one of them that I saw. I didn’t know any of them real well. …

[Assistant] What about the other roles other than the astronauts? You were one of the first female engineers. Did you see more and more start to come in, or was it a slow coming?

[User] Yes, after the first five years, because I kept being told that, “Oh, there was a woman engineer, but they had her in tears the other day, and she quit.”\n\n I heard that about three different times, and nobody—I said, “If you hear that, tell me. Let me go talk to them.” I’d say after about five years; I was probably one of the very few for five years, actual engineers. Now, there were some women. Here’s another one I love, and I can’t remember her name. She did the food for all those years.

[Assistant] Oh, Rita [M.] Rapp.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did. Oh yes, it did change.

[Assistant] It is part of NASA history, but it did change.

[User] No, I watched it change, and it was good. Then, of course, when Carolyn [L. Huntoon] became [Center] Director—of course, that’s a whole ’nother story. She should have still been Director, but somebody got her—George [Abbey]. Anyway, that was good for a while, but it didn’t end up good, because she was being used, I’m sorry to say. But, you know, I think Carolyn was tough enough; she could have handled it. I didn’t get along that well with Carolyn, but that was fine. We were free to argue and discuss.\n\n So I’m trying to think what else got my attention. It was actually the nineties before the women started getting management positions, though, wasn’t it? You guys know better than I. I didn’t keep track of the time. I just knew it was evolving; it was changing. I don’t remember, but it was not too long ago. It hasn’t been that long. When they picked the women astronauts, I think that really helped.

[Assistant] Made the biggest—okay.

[User] Yes, I think that really helped.

[Assistant] Why did you decide to leave when you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't think I had a definite career goal. I thought I wanted to obviously work at associated with things from Latin America. It was my major. And so I was aware of the Peace Corps all, since high school.

[Assistant] How had you become aware?

[User] Well, I was a sophomore in high school when the Peace Corps started in '61.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I kept up on the news at that time. I read the newspaper and was very aware of what's going on. So it was something that was of interest to me and I'd already taken Spanish in high school.

[Assistant] And during college, did you travel? What did you do with your summers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was a sophomore in high school when the Peace Corps started in '61.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I kept up on the news at that time. I read the newspaper and was very aware of what's going on. So it was something that was of interest to me and I'd already taken Spanish in high school.

[Assistant] And during college, did you travel? What did you do with your summers?

[User] Oh, I worked in the summers, usually away from home. I worked in a camp for handicapped children, and I worked in California one summer. And that's the summer I had seven different summer jobs. Some lasted a day and some lasted a week. The last one I was in a cannery, canning factory, but they kept me on because all the other students had gone back to college.

[Assistant] This was up in Wisconsin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I kept up on the news at that time. I read the newspaper and was very aware of what's going on. So it was something that was of interest to me and I'd already taken Spanish in high school.

[Assistant] And during college, did you travel? What did you do with your summers?

[User] Oh, I worked in the summers, usually away from home. I worked in a camp for handicapped children, and I worked in California one summer. And that's the summer I had seven different summer jobs. Some lasted a day and some lasted a week. The last one I was in a cannery, canning factory, but they kept me on because all the other students had gone back to college.

[Assistant] This was up in Wisconsin?

[User] In Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Yeah. Any international travel up to that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I worked in the summers, usually away from home. I worked in a camp for handicapped children, and I worked in California one summer. And that's the summer I had seven different summer jobs. Some lasted a day and some lasted a week. The last one I was in a cannery, canning factory, but they kept me on because all the other students had gone back to college.

[Assistant] This was up in Wisconsin?

[User] In Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Yeah. Any international travel up to that point?

[User] The only international travel I did was to Mexico, where I spent the summer of 1965. And then I think I was there on a spring break.

[Assistant] And that was just tourism or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Yeah. Any international travel up to that point?

[User] The only international travel I did was to Mexico, where I spent the summer of 1965. And then I think I was there on a spring break.

[Assistant] And that was just tourism or?

[User] That was tourism, yeah. So I didn't have, that was my international experience at that time.

[Assistant] You grew up in Wisconsin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, I grew up in Wisconsin.

[Assistant] Siblings?

[User] Two brothers and a sister. And my brother was also a Latin American, a Latin Americanist, I guess you could use that word.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So it was a little interest there in the family. So that was what my major was. And then when I applied for the Peace Corps, then I asked for Latin America.

[Assistant] As you, now you're going into your senior year. Do you remember, you recall the application process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two brothers and a sister. And my brother was also a Latin American, a Latin Americanist, I guess you could use that word.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So it was a little interest there in the family. So that was what my major was. And then when I applied for the Peace Corps, then I asked for Latin America.

[Assistant] As you, now you're going into your senior year. Do you remember, you recall the application process?

[User] Well, probably it would be more overwhelming now than it was back then, because you used to do a lot of paperwork and doing some papers. And so it was just another thing to get ready.

[Assistant] Do you recall indicating an area preference? I think that's one of the things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was a little interest there in the family. So that was what my major was. And then when I applied for the Peace Corps, then I asked for Latin America.

[Assistant] As you, now you're going into your senior year. Do you remember, you recall the application process?

[User] Well, probably it would be more overwhelming now than it was back then, because you used to do a lot of paperwork and doing some papers. And so it was just another thing to get ready.

[Assistant] Do you recall indicating an area preference? I think that's one of the things.

[User] Oh yes, of course. They probably had preference for community development, and I did indicate a preference for Latin America.

[Assistant] And how was your Spanish at that point, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, probably it would be more overwhelming now than it was back then, because you used to do a lot of paperwork and doing some papers. And so it was just another thing to get ready.

[Assistant] Do you recall indicating an area preference? I think that's one of the things.

[User] Oh yes, of course. They probably had preference for community development, and I did indicate a preference for Latin America.

[Assistant] And how was your Spanish at that point, I mean?

[User] Well, my Spanish was, um, well back then it was the FSI. And when I went into the Peace Corps, I tested as a three. So I guess I was good.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was all just from college and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes, of course. They probably had preference for community development, and I did indicate a preference for Latin America.

[Assistant] And how was your Spanish at that point, I mean?

[User] Well, my Spanish was, um, well back then it was the FSI. And when I went into the Peace Corps, I tested as a three. So I guess I was good.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was all just from college and?

[User] And having spent a summer in Mexico.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. And as the application process went on, did you have any alternatives in mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my Spanish was, um, well back then it was the FSI. And when I went into the Peace Corps, I tested as a three. So I guess I was good.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was all just from college and?

[User] And having spent a summer in Mexico.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. And as the application process went on, did you have any alternatives in mind?

[User] Uh, avoid the draft.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I was going to ask about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, avoid the draft.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. I was going to ask about that.

[User] Vietnam. So I also was considering teaching because the teaching was still a deferment at the time, although I didn't have any teaching credentials there were programs to get them.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah.

[User] And of course, that was up to each of the individual draft boards.

[Assistant] And were you associated with a board that was tended to give deferments for Peace Corps service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Vietnam. So I also was considering teaching because the teaching was still a deferment at the time, although I didn't have any teaching credentials there were programs to get them.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah.

[User] And of course, that was up to each of the individual draft boards.

[Assistant] And were you associated with a board that was tended to give deferments for Peace Corps service?

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Because it wasn't true of all of them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes.

[Assistant] Because it wasn't true of all of them.

[User] That's correct. Even people in our training that had problems.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] In fact, I think one of them was actually called out of training.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So application goes in, you move toward graduation. What was, what happened next?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's correct. Even people in our training that had problems.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] In fact, I think one of them was actually called out of training.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. So application goes in, you move toward graduation. What was, what happened next?

[User] So I would be graduating at mid-year in January, and I think I must have received the notice from the Peace Corps, uh. I would graduate at the end of January, I should say, probably around Christmas. I can't remember if it was right before Christmas or right after. But, uh, I, it wasn't a long time in between when I was graduating and when the Peace Corps training started. And I think I graduated and within two weeks I was at Peace Corps training.

[Assistant] What was family's reaction to you joining and friends and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I would be graduating at mid-year in January, and I think I must have received the notice from the Peace Corps, uh. I would graduate at the end of January, I should say, probably around Christmas. I can't remember if it was right before Christmas or right after. But, uh, I, it wasn't a long time in between when I was graduating and when the Peace Corps training started. And I think I graduated and within two weeks I was at Peace Corps training.

[Assistant] What was family's reaction to you joining and friends and?

[User] I would say pretty supportive.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was, uh, I wasn't engaged yet but I was, I had met my wife.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And did she approve of your going off for two years or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, she was going back to her Argentina.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] She actually spent a second year teaching in the United States, probably because of our relationship.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So then. In general, yes, supportive.

[Assistant] And had you known anyone who'd been in the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] She actually spent a second year teaching in the United States, probably because of our relationship.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] So then. In general, yes, supportive.

[Assistant] And had you known anyone who'd been in the Peace Corps?

[User] Let's see.

[Assistant] I mean, Madison, there must have been.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let's see.

[Assistant] I mean, Madison, there must have been.

[User] I must have met some Peace Corps volunteers, yes. I just don't recall if I did. I must have. There must have been students or graduate students there at math. I can't recall right now.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] I don't remember seeing recruiters, though. I might have talked to one, but because I did all the process, you know.

[Assistant] All on your own.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I must have met some Peace Corps volunteers, yes. I just don't recall if I did. I must have. There must have been students or graduate students there at math. I can't recall right now.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] I don't remember seeing recruiters, though. I might have talked to one, but because I did all the process, you know.

[Assistant] All on your own.

[User] Asking for an application and mailing it off.

[Assistant] I don't know. They may have cut back on recruiting because of the draft question around that time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember seeing recruiters, though. I might have talked to one, but because I did all the process, you know.

[Assistant] All on your own.

[User] Asking for an application and mailing it off.

[Assistant] I don't know. They may have cut back on recruiting because of the draft question around that time.

[User] Of course, later on I knew that there were college representatives for the Peace Corps at the larger universities and that they had one in Madison in later years.

[Assistant] But not at the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Asking for an application and mailing it off.

[Assistant] I don't know. They may have cut back on recruiting because of the draft question around that time.

[User] Of course, later on I knew that there were college representatives for the Peace Corps at the larger universities and that they had one in Madison in later years.

[Assistant] But not at the time.

[User] I wasn't aware of that, so I assume there was not.

[Assistant] So where do you report for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course, later on I knew that there were college representatives for the Peace Corps at the larger universities and that they had one in Madison in later years.

[Assistant] But not at the time.

[User] I wasn't aware of that, so I assume there was not.

[Assistant] So where do you report for training?

[User] I reported for training in, um, San Juan, Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] So it was direct from Madison to San Juan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I wasn't aware of that, so I assume there was not.

[Assistant] So where do you report for training?

[User] I reported for training in, um, San Juan, Puerto Rico.

[Assistant] So it was direct from Madison to San Juan?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] The invitation had said, what? That you were being invited to train for Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] The invitation had said, what? That you were being invited to train for Honduras?

[User] Honduras, the program, Honduras, whatever. I think 14? I forgot my number already. In community development. And of course, community development is a little bit of a nebulous term.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But I believe at that time they were saying that a number of the volunteers would be assigned to work with co-ops and credit unions.

[Assistant] Uh, and where did you report in Puerto Rico? How did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Honduras, the program, Honduras, whatever. I think 14? I forgot my number already. In community development. And of course, community development is a little bit of a nebulous term.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But I believe at that time they were saying that a number of the volunteers would be assigned to work with co-ops and credit unions.

[Assistant] Uh, and where did you report in Puerto Rico? How did?

[User] Well, I think today it's a Radisson hotel, but it was an independent hotel at the time. But a hotel.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And that was, was that the training site?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I believe at that time they were saying that a number of the volunteers would be assigned to work with co-ops and credit unions.

[Assistant] Uh, and where did you report in Puerto Rico? How did?

[User] Well, I think today it's a Radisson hotel, but it was an independent hotel at the time. But a hotel.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And that was, was that the training site?

[User] That was not the training. The three day orientation and then I can't remember if they started getting shots. As we discussed, they were probably, the psychologists were probably doing their job trying to shrink our heads at that time already.

[Assistant] Approximately how many were in the training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think today it's a Radisson hotel, but it was an independent hotel at the time. But a hotel.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. And that was, was that the training site?

[User] That was not the training. The three day orientation and then I can't remember if they started getting shots. As we discussed, they were probably, the psychologists were probably doing their job trying to shrink our heads at that time already.

[Assistant] Approximately how many were in the training group?

[User] Around 80. It was a large program.

[Assistant] And was it overwhelmingly male?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was not the training. The three day orientation and then I can't remember if they started getting shots. As we discussed, they were probably, the psychologists were probably doing their job trying to shrink our heads at that time already.

[Assistant] Approximately how many were in the training group?

[User] Around 80. It was a large program.

[Assistant] And was it overwhelmingly male?

[User] It was overwhelmingly male. There was a nursing component there, around 15 or 20 nurses, some of whom were spouses of the volunteers who were going to be in our program or in others. Several of them were engineers.

[Assistant] But everyone was scheduled for Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Around 80. It was a large program.

[Assistant] And was it overwhelmingly male?

[User] It was overwhelmingly male. There was a nursing component there, around 15 or 20 nurses, some of whom were spouses of the volunteers who were going to be in our program or in others. Several of them were engineers.

[Assistant] But everyone was scheduled for Honduras?

[User] Yes, the program was for Honduras.

[Assistant] And do you recall your impression of the others? I mean, now you're in the midst of other Peace Corps volunteers or trainees.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, the program was for Honduras.

[Assistant] And do you recall your impression of the others? I mean, now you're in the midst of other Peace Corps volunteers or trainees.

[User] Oh, yes, I remember. Well, it's just, of course I didn't know any of them. Um. I almost went in with my brother, by the way. My brother was offered the same program.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] He had graduated mid-year, graduated mid-year with his master's degree in geography, and he was offered the program, but he had lined up a teaching job in college, so he took that.

[Assistant] He's a little older?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He had graduated mid-year, graduated mid-year with his master's degree in geography, and he was offered the program, but he had lined up a teaching job in college, so he took that.

[Assistant] He's a little older?

[User] He was two years older.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But chronologically, he was offered it before I was. They might have gone through him and got to me next, but that was that.

[Assistant] Or maybe they thought you were both the same person. Three day staging?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was two years older.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But chronologically, he was offered it before I was. They might have gone through him and got to me next, but that was that.

[Assistant] Or maybe they thought you were both the same person. Three day staging?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Shots and a psychiatrist or a psychologist begin to look at you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Shots and a psychiatrist or a psychologist begin to look at you?

[User] And then they also sent us off to look at some of the barrios, the poor areas there in San Juan.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I remember one, La Perla, which they at that time said was the worst area, it was a collection of shacks right on the, in old San Juan, right on the beach. You can see it once you have gone off the road. So that was a bit of a shocker to see that, of course. [phone rings]

[Assistant] Here you go. So you had this exposure.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then they also sent us off to look at some of the barrios, the poor areas there in San Juan.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] I remember one, La Perla, which they at that time said was the worst area, it was a collection of shacks right on the, in old San Juan, right on the beach. You can see it once you have gone off the road. So that was a bit of a shocker to see that, of course. [phone rings]

[Assistant] Here you go. So you had this exposure.

[User] So anyway, they started us off right away seeing.

[Assistant] What was the training staff at that point, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember one, La Perla, which they at that time said was the worst area, it was a collection of shacks right on the, in old San Juan, right on the beach. You can see it once you have gone off the road. So that was a bit of a shocker to see that, of course. [phone rings]

[Assistant] Here you go. So you had this exposure.

[User] So anyway, they started us off right away seeing.

[Assistant] What was the training staff at that point, I mean?

[User] Who the training staff, uh. They'd come down from the mountain from the camp.

[Assistant] They were Americans?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They were Americans.

[Assistant] Former volunteers?

[User] Yes. The psychologists I don't think were.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But the others were, I believe were all former volunteers.

[Assistant] And even in taking you or sending you into the first slum, did anyone make a point of why?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the others were, I believe were all former volunteers.

[Assistant] And even in taking you or sending you into the first slum, did anyone make a point of why?

[User] Yes. This will be similar to what you're going to be working in.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Although most of you will be in small towns in rural Honduras, there will be a number of you in the cities and you'll see this and you'll see worse.

[Assistant] Did the group have a feeling they were playing head games with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. This will be similar to what you're going to be working in.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Although most of you will be in small towns in rural Honduras, there will be a number of you in the cities and you'll see this and you'll see worse.

[Assistant] Did the group have a feeling they were playing head games with you?

[User] Not yet.

[Assistant] Okay. After the three days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So then we hopped onto a bus and they took us up to the camp, which is about an hour and a half drive probably. It's not very far. But by the time you get there, hour and a half from San Juan, the capital. Camp Crozier and Camp?

[Assistant] Radley.

[User] Radley. We went to Camp Crozier.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And so that was, uh, you know, assigned to our cabins and find a bunk and put yourself, put your stuff into a footlocker and start the program of more shots and more orientation and language and.

[Assistant] How did language play out for you since you had, had you tested out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They tested us and probably they did that in San Juan, now that I think about it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And they of course assigned us by groups. Actually, I was the top person in the second to the highest Spanish group.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] And then within a week, they put me into the other group, which was made up of one Puerto Rican native speaker and another woman who had lived in Puerto Rico for seven or eight years or who was [inaudible] some teenagers there. So her Spanish was basically native level and her husband was close. And then the guy who had been in Ecuador for a year as a Fulbright and then me.

[Assistant] But the Spanish may must have been different, I mean.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they of course assigned us by groups. Actually, I was the top person in the second to the highest Spanish group.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] And then within a week, they put me into the other group, which was made up of one Puerto Rican native speaker and another woman who had lived in Puerto Rico for seven or eight years or who was [inaudible] some teenagers there. So her Spanish was basically native level and her husband was close. And then the guy who had been in Ecuador for a year as a Fulbright and then me.

[Assistant] But the Spanish may must have been different, I mean.

[User] Well, it was Puerto Rican Spanish. Mexican American Spanish. Mexican and Ecuadorian.

[Assistant] But you still did, so part of your training program was continued language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Really that was what I viewed as, uh, after a while, it got to be a waste of time. And you sat around and talked. There should have been some way we could have increased, we increased our skills, but very little technical training was taking place anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And the group of five or six of us should have been acquiring more technical training.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And in the end, they let us go into town much more often than the others could go into town and.

[Assistant] And they didn't try to recruit you to be part of the language training staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the group of five or six of us should have been acquiring more technical training.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And in the end, they let us go into town much more often than the others could go into town and.

[Assistant] And they didn't try to recruit you to be part of the language training staff?

[User] Oh, no, I would not. I wasn't that good at it.

[Assistant] Well, you were better.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And in the end, they let us go into town much more often than the others could go into town and.

[Assistant] And they didn't try to recruit you to be part of the language training staff?

[User] Oh, no, I would not. I wasn't that good at it.

[Assistant] Well, you were better.

[User] I could have helped the very beginners, but they hadn't asked me to be language staff.

[Assistant] So there was language. Was there area studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I could have helped the very beginners, but they hadn't asked me to be language staff.

[Assistant] So there was language. Was there area studies?

[User] Area studies, yeah. Cross-cultural studies.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Code word, don't we. So that we spent a lot of time with that.

[Assistant] And who was conducting that? Were they Hondurans or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Area studies, yeah. Cross-cultural studies.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Code word, don't we. So that we spent a lot of time with that.

[Assistant] And who was conducting that? Were they Hondurans or?

[User] Um, no. Those were the staff that were former volunteers.

[Assistant] And history and culture and that sort of thing. Was some of it, must have been familiar to you? Some of it anyway.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Code word, don't we. So that we spent a lot of time with that.

[Assistant] And who was conducting that? Were they Hondurans or?

[User] Um, no. Those were the staff that were former volunteers.

[Assistant] And history and culture and that sort of thing. Was some of it, must have been familiar to you? Some of it anyway.

[User] Well, I'd been exposed to it, but not in the same manner of cross-cultural studies. I had all the background of history and geography and the economics of Latin America. Geology. But not the emphasis on the cross-cultural studies.

[Assistant] At that time, were they still giving what used to be called American history and world communism?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, no. Those were the staff that were former volunteers.

[Assistant] And history and culture and that sort of thing. Was some of it, must have been familiar to you? Some of it anyway.

[User] Well, I'd been exposed to it, but not in the same manner of cross-cultural studies. I had all the background of history and geography and the economics of Latin America. Geology. But not the emphasis on the cross-cultural studies.

[Assistant] At that time, were they still giving what used to be called American history and world communism?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. Any American history components of training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I'd been exposed to it, but not in the same manner of cross-cultural studies. I had all the background of history and geography and the economics of Latin America. Geology. But not the emphasis on the cross-cultural studies.

[Assistant] At that time, were they still giving what used to be called American history and world communism?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. Any American history components of training?

[User] I don't remember any at all, other than bringing it as comparative. The history of Honduras is this compared to the history the United States, which I already knew that.

[Assistant] How about technical studies?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay. Any American history components of training?

[User] I don't remember any at all, other than bringing it as comparative. The history of Honduras is this compared to the history the United States, which I already knew that.

[Assistant] How about technical studies?

[User] Technical was I think one of our things I look back at what we complained about was the lack of technical training, that we're going to be working with co-ops for the majority of our part of the program. They could have done more, go over simple accounting and getting the books that you might set up at a credit union.

[Assistant] And you had none of those skills, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Technical was I think one of our things I look back at what we complained about was the lack of technical training, that we're going to be working with co-ops for the majority of our part of the program. They could have done more, go over simple accounting and getting the books that you might set up at a credit union.

[Assistant] And you had none of those skills, I mean?

[User] I had none of those skills. Well, I'd taken accounting, but that doesn't mean that I know how to do the practical stuff. And again, it wasn't, it's not going to be a high level. But on the other hand, two years later, when I was a trainer for the same type of programs, I made sure that we did more of it.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] So that was, that was one of our biggest complaints.

[Assistant] So at the time, you had the feeling there was a vagueness about the technical studies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had none of those skills. Well, I'd taken accounting, but that doesn't mean that I know how to do the practical stuff. And again, it wasn't, it's not going to be a high level. But on the other hand, two years later, when I was a trainer for the same type of programs, I made sure that we did more of it.

[Assistant] Right, right.

[User] So that was, that was one of our biggest complaints.

[Assistant] So at the time, you had the feeling there was a vagueness about the technical studies.

[User] We kept thinking, when were we going to get the training of what we're going to be doing in our jobs when we.

[Assistant] And nobody was answering that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was, that was one of our biggest complaints.

[Assistant] So at the time, you had the feeling there was a vagueness about the technical studies.

[User] We kept thinking, when were we going to get the training of what we're going to be doing in our jobs when we.

[Assistant] And nobody was answering that.

[User] Well, they were. It's kind of hard to recall. But we kept thinking we would get more. We never got much at all.

[Assistant] Two other components of training would be some medical training and then some physical training. I don't know if you recall either of those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We kept thinking, when were we going to get the training of what we're going to be doing in our jobs when we.

[Assistant] And nobody was answering that.

[User] Well, they were. It's kind of hard to recall. But we kept thinking we would get more. We never got much at all.

[Assistant] Two other components of training would be some medical training and then some physical training. I don't know if you recall either of those.

[User] Physical training?

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, it's legendary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they were. It's kind of hard to recall. But we kept thinking we would get more. We never got much at all.

[Assistant] Two other components of training would be some medical training and then some physical training. I don't know if you recall either of those.

[User] Physical training?

[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, it's legendary.

[User] Physical training. But there was nothing that was required.

[Assistant] None of the drownproofing, throwing you off a cliff to see if you bounce?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Physical training. But there was nothing that was required.

[Assistant] None of the drownproofing, throwing you off a cliff to see if you bounce?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That apparently it had its day already. But as I mentioned, I probably was in one of the best shapes of my life because there was plenty of, well, we were in the camp, so we were isolated. They could keep us going 16 hours a day.

[Assistant] Don't cover the mike. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] That apparently it had its day already. But as I mentioned, I probably was in one of the best shapes of my life because there was plenty of, well, we were in the camp, so we were isolated. They could keep us going 16 hours a day.

[Assistant] Don't cover the mike. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[User] And so we, I did exercise three times a day and in the night.

[Assistant] And of course, the other aspect of training is the selection process. How was that organized?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that was the strengths I guess, is what we.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Called it. And this apparently was past its peak as far as weeding people out because. Although there was probably the desire of a number of males like myself to avoid the draft.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They weren't, it didn't seem like the biggest part of the job, of the activity, was to weed us out. They were there. There were psychologists on staff. And they'd kind of give you a good idea of what they expected. You're going to have to be able to adapt and what kind of conditions you'll be living under. And you have to make some advancement in your language studies. And a lot of, they were already saying you had to make your own job to a certain extent because the structure, the infrastructure might not be there.

[Assistant] Was there small group meetings? You know, you'd meet in a small group and discuss an issue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Called it. And this apparently was past its peak as far as weeding people out because. Although there was probably the desire of a number of males like myself to avoid the draft.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They weren't, it didn't seem like the biggest part of the job, of the activity, was to weed us out. They were there. There were psychologists on staff. And they'd kind of give you a good idea of what they expected. You're going to have to be able to adapt and what kind of conditions you'll be living under. And you have to make some advancement in your language studies. And a lot of, they were already saying you had to make your own job to a certain extent because the structure, the infrastructure might not be there.

[Assistant] Was there small group meetings? You know, you'd meet in a small group and discuss an issue?

[User] Yes, there was that. And sometimes I, I kind of recall some kind of psychological games were a part of that, but I just can't be specific at this point.

[Assistant] How would you, how did you feel mid-point in the training about your own prospects?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They weren't, it didn't seem like the biggest part of the job, of the activity, was to weed us out. They were there. There were psychologists on staff. And they'd kind of give you a good idea of what they expected. You're going to have to be able to adapt and what kind of conditions you'll be living under. And you have to make some advancement in your language studies. And a lot of, they were already saying you had to make your own job to a certain extent because the structure, the infrastructure might not be there.

[Assistant] Was there small group meetings? You know, you'd meet in a small group and discuss an issue?

[User] Yes, there was that. And sometimes I, I kind of recall some kind of psychological games were a part of that, but I just can't be specific at this point.

[Assistant] How would you, how did you feel mid-point in the training about your own prospects?

[User] Well, I guess apprehensive about having some kind of skills to be able to use and what kind of specific job I would be doing.

[Assistant] But you didn't have any hesitation? You assumed that you were going to be selected.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was that. And sometimes I, I kind of recall some kind of psychological games were a part of that, but I just can't be specific at this point.

[Assistant] How would you, how did you feel mid-point in the training about your own prospects?

[User] Well, I guess apprehensive about having some kind of skills to be able to use and what kind of specific job I would be doing.

[Assistant] But you didn't have any hesitation? You assumed that you were going to be selected.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And part of the group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess apprehensive about having some kind of skills to be able to use and what kind of specific job I would be doing.

[Assistant] But you didn't have any hesitation? You assumed that you were going to be selected.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And part of the group.

[User] Some of the, by the middle of the training, people who were not making progress in Spanish were given, while they weren't given ultimatums, but were told that you need to be able to function at a certain level.

[Assistant] By the end of training, how many people had dropped out or been kicked out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of the, by the middle of the training, people who were not making progress in Spanish were given, while they weren't given ultimatums, but were told that you need to be able to function at a certain level.

[Assistant] By the end of training, how many people had dropped out or been kicked out?

[User] It seemed like around ten.

[Assistant] Not many.

[User] The only one I remember at this particular time was the guy who made it all the way through. And he already had some college Spanish, so he probably was, his Spanish language was alright. And the facial hair was a big deal. And apparently the Peace Corps director, it finally came down that they were not going to allow beards in Honduras. And so this guy transferred to a program for Panama where they allowed it.

[Assistant] How did, what was the justification? Do you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The only one I remember at this particular time was the guy who made it all the way through. And he already had some college Spanish, so he probably was, his Spanish language was alright. And the facial hair was a big deal. And apparently the Peace Corps director, it finally came down that they were not going to allow beards in Honduras. And so this guy transferred to a program for Panama where they allowed it.

[Assistant] How did, what was the justification? Do you recall?

[User] The justification was how you'd be looked at by the Hondurans. I think it was, communists had beards.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And things like that.

[Assistant] Honduras was a politically sensitive area at this time, wasn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The justification was how you'd be looked at by the Hondurans. I think it was, communists had beards.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] And things like that.

[Assistant] Honduras was a politically sensitive area at this time, wasn't it?

[User] Well, I would say all of Latin America was just because of the fear of communism.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Were there any civil wars in or near Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I would say all of Latin America was just because of the fear of communism.

[Assistant] Right. Right. Were there any civil wars in or near Honduras?

[User] Guatemala had their civil war in 1953 or '54, when the elected government was kicked out by a military that was later found to be financed by the CIA.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Jacobo Arbenz was the president. And of course, we had a war when I was there.

[Assistant] Now, was there any, uh, in training was there any discussion of the role you should play or the sensitivity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Guatemala had their civil war in 1953 or '54, when the elected government was kicked out by a military that was later found to be financed by the CIA.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Jacobo Arbenz was the president. And of course, we had a war when I was there.

[Assistant] Now, was there any, uh, in training was there any discussion of the role you should play or the sensitivity?

[User] Oh, yeah, all the time.

[Assistant] How was it defined, if you recall?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jacobo Arbenz was the president. And of course, we had a war when I was there.

[Assistant] Now, was there any, uh, in training was there any discussion of the role you should play or the sensitivity?

[User] Oh, yeah, all the time.

[Assistant] How was it defined, if you recall?

[User] Well, it's again, since I've had a lot of Latin American experience since this, it's kind of hard to remember. But nevertheless, the emphasis that you would be the center of attention wherever you were, which of course turned out to be true. And a tall, fair-complected person like me is even more so probably than others. Um, that you are representing the United States although you were not an embassy, you're not going to be an embassy person, and people would tend to confuse you with what the United States government was doing. Perhaps you would always say that your personal views might be something different. But this is the government view and we were urged not to express our private opinions about things.

[Assistant] Were there any discussions at all about either taking a position or not taking a position on the Vietnam War?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah, all the time.

[Assistant] How was it defined, if you recall?

[User] Well, it's again, since I've had a lot of Latin American experience since this, it's kind of hard to remember. But nevertheless, the emphasis that you would be the center of attention wherever you were, which of course turned out to be true. And a tall, fair-complected person like me is even more so probably than others. Um, that you are representing the United States although you were not an embassy, you're not going to be an embassy person, and people would tend to confuse you with what the United States government was doing. Perhaps you would always say that your personal views might be something different. But this is the government view and we were urged not to express our private opinions about things.

[Assistant] Were there any discussions at all about either taking a position or not taking a position on the Vietnam War?

[User] Yes, that was, that was the referring to number one, was what the U.S. government position was. Your own private position was, to be careful with that because they would view your opinions as those of the government then.

[Assistant] But you have a group of people just off, most of them just off college campuses.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's again, since I've had a lot of Latin American experience since this, it's kind of hard to remember. But nevertheless, the emphasis that you would be the center of attention wherever you were, which of course turned out to be true. And a tall, fair-complected person like me is even more so probably than others. Um, that you are representing the United States although you were not an embassy, you're not going to be an embassy person, and people would tend to confuse you with what the United States government was doing. Perhaps you would always say that your personal views might be something different. But this is the government view and we were urged not to express our private opinions about things.

[Assistant] Were there any discussions at all about either taking a position or not taking a position on the Vietnam War?

[User] Yes, that was, that was the referring to number one, was what the U.S. government position was. Your own private position was, to be careful with that because they would view your opinions as those of the government then.

[Assistant] But you have a group of people just off, most of them just off college campuses.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And did they all keep their mouth shut about Vietnam?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was, that was the referring to number one, was what the U.S. government position was. Your own private position was, to be careful with that because they would view your opinions as those of the government then.

[Assistant] But you have a group of people just off, most of them just off college campuses.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And did they all keep their mouth shut about Vietnam?

[User] Of course not.

[Assistant] But at least in front of the selection board, they would, they did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And did they all keep their mouth shut about Vietnam?

[User] Of course not.

[Assistant] But at least in front of the selection board, they would, they did.

[User] Correct. And there was, there was in the training camp. But I think it was actually by the time we got in country, there was, I don't know, was the bombing of Laos or, I can't recall. One of the times when they stopped the bombing. When they restarted it, write your congressman, send a telegram and all that was, we discussed it pretty openly.

[Assistant] You were clear with your own draft board, you had gotten the deferment? Or it was in the works?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of course not.

[Assistant] But at least in front of the selection board, they would, they did.

[User] Correct. And there was, there was in the training camp. But I think it was actually by the time we got in country, there was, I don't know, was the bombing of Laos or, I can't recall. One of the times when they stopped the bombing. When they restarted it, write your congressman, send a telegram and all that was, we discussed it pretty openly.

[Assistant] You were clear with your own draft board, you had gotten the deferment? Or it was in the works?

[User] Well, I had a student deferment and I had to then request another deferment for the Peace Corps service.

[Assistant] But expectation was it would come through, obviously.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Correct. And there was, there was in the training camp. But I think it was actually by the time we got in country, there was, I don't know, was the bombing of Laos or, I can't recall. One of the times when they stopped the bombing. When they restarted it, write your congressman, send a telegram and all that was, we discussed it pretty openly.

[Assistant] You were clear with your own draft board, you had gotten the deferment? Or it was in the works?

[User] Well, I had a student deferment and I had to then request another deferment for the Peace Corps service.

[Assistant] But expectation was it would come through, obviously.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. What happened after training? Did you have a chance to come back to the U.S.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. What happened after training? Did you have a chance to come back to the U.S.?

[User] Oh, no. No, we, um. Well, I shouldn't say that. We had three days between the time we were leaving Puerto Rico and the time we had to be on a plane from a specific plane? Yeah, a specific flight from Miami to Tegucigalpa.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so as it turned out, I was not on that flight. I had to stay another week or two for medical reasons. I had some open sores so they couldn't give the last smallpox shot. And so they waited for that to clear up. And then they gave me a shot and then they, they sent me. So I didn't have much, as much time as the other people did.

[Assistant] Yeah. And where did you spend that week, back home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, no. No, we, um. Well, I shouldn't say that. We had three days between the time we were leaving Puerto Rico and the time we had to be on a plane from a specific plane? Yeah, a specific flight from Miami to Tegucigalpa.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so as it turned out, I was not on that flight. I had to stay another week or two for medical reasons. I had some open sores so they couldn't give the last smallpox shot. And so they waited for that to clear up. And then they gave me a shot and then they, they sent me. So I didn't have much, as much time as the other people did.

[Assistant] Yeah. And where did you spend that week, back home?

[User] No, no, it was just, I think it was like three days. I think I got like two days.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah. So now, did you come into Honduras alone, the group having already arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so as it turned out, I was not on that flight. I had to stay another week or two for medical reasons. I had some open sores so they couldn't give the last smallpox shot. And so they waited for that to clear up. And then they gave me a shot and then they, they sent me. So I didn't have much, as much time as the other people did.

[Assistant] Yeah. And where did you spend that week, back home?

[User] No, no, it was just, I think it was like three days. I think I got like two days.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah. So now, did you come into Honduras alone, the group having already arrived?

[User] Yes. In fact, then I. I believe I got on the bus right away. Like, let's see. I think I spent one night in the capital, and then they put me out. I got on a bus and went down to the south coast. Choluteca was where the, it was an agricultural extension or training center, and that's where the in- country training was taking place at the time.

[Assistant] So, and how long had been the Puerto Rican phase?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, it was just, I think it was like three days. I think I got like two days.

[Assistant] Oh, okay. Yeah. So now, did you come into Honduras alone, the group having already arrived?

[User] Yes. In fact, then I. I believe I got on the bus right away. Like, let's see. I think I spent one night in the capital, and then they put me out. I got on a bus and went down to the south coast. Choluteca was where the, it was an agricultural extension or training center, and that's where the in- country training was taking place at the time.

[Assistant] So, and how long had been the Puerto Rican phase?

[User] Puerto Rican phase I believe was two months.

[Assistant] And the phase in Honduras?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In fact, then I. I believe I got on the bus right away. Like, let's see. I think I spent one night in the capital, and then they put me out. I got on a bus and went down to the south coast. Choluteca was where the, it was an agricultural extension or training center, and that's where the in- country training was taking place at the time.

[Assistant] So, and how long had been the Puerto Rican phase?

[User] Puerto Rican phase I believe was two months.

[Assistant] And the phase in Honduras?

[User] In country was about a month. So I probably was.

[Assistant] At what point, at what point in the process did you know where you're going to be assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Puerto Rican phase I believe was two months.

[Assistant] And the phase in Honduras?

[User] In country was about a month. So I probably was.

[Assistant] At what point, at what point in the process did you know where you're going to be assigned?

[User] Um. Well, I got in country, I think they'd started to make the assignments. Then there might have been a little bit more attrition and they were firming up the assignments. When I got there, they said, well, we think we're gonna send you to, when they told me too.

[Assistant] Did they solicit your feelings, you know, like to be assigned alone, didn't want to be assigned with X, I'd prefer to be assigned?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In country was about a month. So I probably was.

[Assistant] At what point, at what point in the process did you know where you're going to be assigned?

[User] Um. Well, I got in country, I think they'd started to make the assignments. Then there might have been a little bit more attrition and they were firming up the assignments. When I got there, they said, well, we think we're gonna send you to, when they told me too.

[Assistant] Did they solicit your feelings, you know, like to be assigned alone, didn't want to be assigned with X, I'd prefer to be assigned?

[User] Really they did not. Maybe because I got there late. I think it was pretty well set in stone.

[Assistant] Okay, so you were familiar being in a setting and using your Spanish.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Well, I got in country, I think they'd started to make the assignments. Then there might have been a little bit more attrition and they were firming up the assignments. When I got there, they said, well, we think we're gonna send you to, when they told me too.

[Assistant] Did they solicit your feelings, you know, like to be assigned alone, didn't want to be assigned with X, I'd prefer to be assigned?

[User] Really they did not. Maybe because I got there late. I think it was pretty well set in stone.

[Assistant] Okay, so you were familiar being in a setting and using your Spanish.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So was the adjustment easy to?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So was the adjustment easy to?

[User] Oh, it was easier to understand the Spanish in Honduras than it was in Puerto Rico. They'd speak much more clearly.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] To my ear.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, you know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was easier to understand the Spanish in Honduras than it was in Puerto Rico. They'd speak much more clearly.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] To my ear.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, you know.

[User] They don't cut off their letters, like the S for instance, like Puerto Ricans do.

[Assistant] At the, in the in-country phase, did you begin to get the technical training you felt?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They don't cut off their letters, like the S for instance, like Puerto Ricans do.

[Assistant] At the, in the in-country phase, did you begin to get the technical training you felt?

[User] We got some more technical training, especially the agricultural part.

[Assistant] From whom?

[User] General agricultural training.

[Assistant] Again, from whom?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got some more technical training, especially the agricultural part.

[Assistant] From whom?

[User] General agricultural training.

[Assistant] Again, from whom?

[User] From a mixture of the Peace Corps in-country staff, some of national people, I guess, the hotchpotch of Hondurans and Americans that were there.

[Assistant] Okay. Did you begin to get any clear sense of what it was that you were going to be doing and with whom and where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] From a mixture of the Peace Corps in-country staff, some of national people, I guess, the hotchpotch of Hondurans and Americans that were there.

[Assistant] Okay. Did you begin to get any clear sense of what it was that you were going to be doing and with whom and where?

[User] Well, um, I was not specifically assigned to the cooperative program, the co-ops, on the community development part. And then I found out it would be an agricultural colony, they called it, that the land reform agency had in this part of the country, Olancho, where I was going to be assigned.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And within that, I found out fairly soon that there was a consumer co-op as part of it, but that wasn't necessarily the assigning. It was community development that I would be assigned to be a counterpart there also.

[Assistant] Had Peace Corps volunteers been in that particular town before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And within that, I found out fairly soon that there was a consumer co-op as part of it, but that wasn't necessarily the assigning. It was community development that I would be assigned to be a counterpart there also.

[Assistant] Had Peace Corps volunteers been in that particular town before?

[User] Yes. In a matter of fact, when I got there, there was a, I think they must have left within a day or two of when I actually got there, I didn't. The other Peace Corps volunteer, I actually replaced him. So I think he might have got to the site a day or two before me. So it was replacing the man. There was a couple.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And my position was new.

[Assistant] Okay. So describe the town and distance from other towns and the, your living circumstance. And then we'll talk about how you settled into the job. [tape break] Okay. We're talking about the assignment, the area you were in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was assigned to the wild east of Honduras, Olancho province, or department I guess they're called in Honduras.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I think I went out, was actually driven out there by the agriculturist. I mean, yeah, an extensionist who worked with the ag co-ops, ag co-op federation, a Honduran.

[Assistant] A Honduran?

[User] Right. It was in a way the counterpart of my Peace Corps colleague. He was going out there. So that I, yeah, that means my colleague was already there. I had been there for a couple of days.

[Assistant] Yeah. And how large a place was it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. It was in a way the counterpart of my Peace Corps colleague. He was going out there. So that I, yeah, that means my colleague was already there. I had been there for a couple of days.

[Assistant] Yeah. And how large a place was it?

[User] It's Catacamas, a community of around 5,000 people altogether. There's the city and county in one.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And the town itself might have had 3,000 of those people.

[Assistant] And most people are agriculturalists?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's Catacamas, a community of around 5,000 people altogether. There's the city and county in one.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And the town itself might have had 3,000 of those people.

[Assistant] And most people are agriculturalists?

[User] Yes. In the rest of the town there were shopkeepers and doctors. I don't know if there were any lawyers, there was a dentist. Actually, there was an Austrian dentist lady who was, you might recall this. Recall her daughter was buried alive in Georgia somewhere for a week or two in the 1960s?

[Assistant] No, I don't recall at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. In the rest of the town there were shopkeepers and doctors. I don't know if there were any lawyers, there was a dentist. Actually, there was an Austrian dentist lady who was, you might recall this. Recall her daughter was buried alive in Georgia somewhere for a week or two in the 1960s?

[Assistant] No, I don't recall at all.

[User] A year or two before I got there. After I left Catacamas, this dentist was murdered.

[Assistant] Oh!

[User] Some petty thievery, and she was there and discovered the thief.

[Assistant] Had housing been arranged for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some petty thievery, and she was there and discovered the thief.

[Assistant] Had housing been arranged for you?

[User] Um, not specifically.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um. The couple was leaving. I think they must have left the day after I got there because I remember sleeping in the living room and I just, we took over their house. The other Peace Corps volunteer and I took over their house.

[Assistant] And you were paying rent to somebody?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, not specifically.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um. The couple was leaving. I think they must have left the day after I got there because I remember sleeping in the living room and I just, we took over their house. The other Peace Corps volunteer and I took over their house.

[Assistant] And you were paying rent to somebody?

[User] To somebody, yes. Actually, it was the, I'm sorry, now I recall a little better. It was the agricultural co-op's building. And so we were the caretakers at the same time as being, my colleague was working.

[Assistant] Your colleague being another Peace Corps volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. The couple was leaving. I think they must have left the day after I got there because I remember sleeping in the living room and I just, we took over their house. The other Peace Corps volunteer and I took over their house.

[Assistant] And you were paying rent to somebody?

[User] To somebody, yes. Actually, it was the, I'm sorry, now I recall a little better. It was the agricultural co-op's building. And so we were the caretakers at the same time as being, my colleague was working.

[Assistant] Your colleague being another Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] What were your domestic arrangements? I mean, how did you get food and get laundry done? And mundane stuff like that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To somebody, yes. Actually, it was the, I'm sorry, now I recall a little better. It was the agricultural co-op's building. And so we were the caretakers at the same time as being, my colleague was working.

[Assistant] Your colleague being another Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] What were your domestic arrangements? I mean, how did you get food and get laundry done? And mundane stuff like that.

[User] The mundane stuff like that. There were stores where you'd go and buy things. There was a, some of the little stores had fresh produce if it were the season. In the dry season, there would be tomatoes and onions and cabbage and occasionally they would bring in other vegetables from Tegucigalpa, the capital, and you could buy a little more fresh things. But some of the year there was very little fresh.

[Assistant] Were there small restaurants you could eat at?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Peace Corps volunteer.

[Assistant] What were your domestic arrangements? I mean, how did you get food and get laundry done? And mundane stuff like that.

[User] The mundane stuff like that. There were stores where you'd go and buy things. There was a, some of the little stores had fresh produce if it were the season. In the dry season, there would be tomatoes and onions and cabbage and occasionally they would bring in other vegetables from Tegucigalpa, the capital, and you could buy a little more fresh things. But some of the year there was very little fresh.

[Assistant] Were there small restaurants you could eat at?

[User] Yes, there were two or three small restaurants you could eat at. There were, um, there was fresh meat because there was a packing plant. So cattle was one of the big industries there. We could always get fresh meat.

[Assistant] But unlike some other areas, or did you hire a personal servant of some sort?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The mundane stuff like that. There were stores where you'd go and buy things. There was a, some of the little stores had fresh produce if it were the season. In the dry season, there would be tomatoes and onions and cabbage and occasionally they would bring in other vegetables from Tegucigalpa, the capital, and you could buy a little more fresh things. But some of the year there was very little fresh.

[Assistant] Were there small restaurants you could eat at?

[User] Yes, there were two or three small restaurants you could eat at. There were, um, there was fresh meat because there was a packing plant. So cattle was one of the big industries there. We could always get fresh meat.

[Assistant] But unlike some other areas, or did you hire a personal servant of some sort?

[User] No, we did not. We had, the laundry, we had people do our laundry for us.

[Assistant] Yeah. And again, you were not living with a family, you were living on your own with your Peace Corps brother.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there were two or three small restaurants you could eat at. There were, um, there was fresh meat because there was a packing plant. So cattle was one of the big industries there. We could always get fresh meat.

[Assistant] But unlike some other areas, or did you hire a personal servant of some sort?

[User] No, we did not. We had, the laundry, we had people do our laundry for us.

[Assistant] Yeah. And again, you were not living with a family, you were living on your own with your Peace Corps brother.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Describe your initial, you know, meeting with your counterpart and your job setting and how it played out over the first month.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we did not. We had, the laundry, we had people do our laundry for us.

[Assistant] Yeah. And again, you were not living with a family, you were living on your own with your Peace Corps brother.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Describe your initial, you know, meeting with your counterpart and your job setting and how it played out over the first month.

[User] Well, the counterpart lived in town and I can't remember what his title was. I think he saw his job as just riding this horse around the agricultural colony, which was about five miles from town where it started and extended out another five miles. The plots were, um, I think ten hectares, 25 acres or something, that the people had been given. Later on, later on I found out that they were foot soldiers for the political party in power at the time that it was given. But I was so.

[Assistant] At the time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the counterpart lived in town and I can't remember what his title was. I think he saw his job as just riding this horse around the agricultural colony, which was about five miles from town where it started and extended out another five miles. The plots were, um, I think ten hectares, 25 acres or something, that the people had been given. Later on, later on I found out that they were foot soldiers for the political party in power at the time that it was given. But I was so.

[Assistant] At the time.

[User] I still was wet behind the ears when I got there, but I found out later on.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And some of them had lived in the, but had worked in the banana plantations on the north coast of Honduras. Or they had some on the south coast earlier. [tape break] That, uh, those jobs that maybe there was disease in some of the plantations or something, but I know there was a number of them had worked in the plantations.

[Assistant] Right. And what did you do on day one on the job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And some of them had lived in the, but had worked in the banana plantations on the north coast of Honduras. Or they had some on the south coast earlier. [tape break] That, uh, those jobs that maybe there was disease in some of the plantations or something, but I know there was a number of them had worked in the plantations.

[Assistant] Right. And what did you do on day one on the job?

[User] Okay, so I met my counterpart that, you know, took me out and introduced me to some of the, uh, the farmers and then the people that were running the consumer co-op that was out in this agricultural colony that was next door to a school. It was kind of the community land there and there was probably a lot of square. So it might have been four or five or eight of these lots. Or 25 acre plots.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And there was, one corner had a small building that wasn't used and theoretically I could have used as a home. That wasn't being used for anything. And then there was the school and then the ag consumer co-op. So that's where it was kind of the center of where I would gravitate to do my job of community development. And then within several days, I would have met then the officers of the co-op.

[Assistant] Now, this is a consumer co-op?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, so I met my counterpart that, you know, took me out and introduced me to some of the, uh, the farmers and then the people that were running the consumer co-op that was out in this agricultural colony that was next door to a school. It was kind of the community land there and there was probably a lot of square. So it might have been four or five or eight of these lots. Or 25 acre plots.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And there was, one corner had a small building that wasn't used and theoretically I could have used as a home. That wasn't being used for anything. And then there was the school and then the ag consumer co-op. So that's where it was kind of the center of where I would gravitate to do my job of community development. And then within several days, I would have met then the officers of the co-op.

[Assistant] Now, this is a consumer co-op?

[User] A consumer co-op.

[Assistant] So the idea was that they would buy consumer goods and at lower price.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there was, one corner had a small building that wasn't used and theoretically I could have used as a home. That wasn't being used for anything. And then there was the school and then the ag consumer co-op. So that's where it was kind of the center of where I would gravitate to do my job of community development. And then within several days, I would have met then the officers of the co-op.

[Assistant] Now, this is a consumer co-op?

[User] A consumer co-op.

[Assistant] So the idea was that they would buy consumer goods and at lower price.

[User] Lower price, correct.

[Assistant] Okay. Didn't it require having some kind of central store?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Lower price, correct.

[Assistant] Okay. Didn't it require having some kind of central store?

[User] Yes, there was a store.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah.

[User] There was a store much like stores that you found in town.

[Assistant] But cooperatively owned.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was a store.

[Assistant] Right. Yeah.

[User] There was a store much like stores that you found in town.

[Assistant] But cooperatively owned.

[User] Cooperatively owned.

[Assistant] Well, what were you there for? At what point did you say that to yourselves?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As we started to sarcastically say, here I am, I've come to save the world, and now I got to start saving the world.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so that was, I guess, the classical case of making your own job. There was a manager for the consumer co-op. So what my job was not to run the consumer co-op.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] As I said, I gravitated toward that to, you know, give them advice and find out when they had inventory and talk about the supplies and how the system worked out, where you would go to the capital city to buy supplies once a month, I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. What was their perception of who in the world you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so that was, I guess, the classical case of making your own job. There was a manager for the consumer co-op. So what my job was not to run the consumer co-op.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] As I said, I gravitated toward that to, you know, give them advice and find out when they had inventory and talk about the supplies and how the system worked out, where you would go to the capital city to buy supplies once a month, I guess.

[Assistant] Yeah. What was their perception of who in the world you were?

[User] Uh, I think it varied between bringing money, because I was from the United States. Bringing a road, that's what they wanted. The roads were really just artificially measured, probably 50 feet wide that they didn't belong to the.

[Assistant] Well, did they see you as a link, a link to their own government or to U.S aid?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was made up, those directors were more the big landowners of the area. So I wouldn't say it was subverted, but to think, well, it's for the small farmers, you can do an agricultural co-op. But the officers, including one of the officers and I don't know if he was present at the time or had been or was going to be, was an American missionary who had started, I think, in 1946. He said he went out there as a younger man and started an orphanage farm. And that particular one, they had, I don't know, a couple hundred acres, and they lost about a half of it to land invasions.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] We found out that the large landowners, his colleagues on the board of directors, had their little spies among the campesinos that were going to do the invading.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And they said, let's go after the Americans. All they got, all the rich Americans have this land and they're taking advantage of the hungering free laborer. And this and that and the other thing.

[Assistant] And this is just in the instance of the missionary?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they said, let's go after the Americans. All they got, all the rich Americans have this land and they're taking advantage of the hungering free laborer. And this and that and the other thing.

[Assistant] And this is just in the instance of the missionary?

[User] And so the missionary, the mission kind of lost half the land.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I didn't see but I didn't see any whips when I went out to the mission, the mission orphanage. And they were working in the fields and they would be in the school half a day and working the land half the day.

[Assistant] And your involvement was just incidental.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so the missionary, the mission kind of lost half the land.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I didn't see but I didn't see any whips when I went out to the mission, the mission orphanage. And they were working in the fields and they would be in the school half a day and working the land half the day.

[Assistant] And your involvement was just incidental.

[User] That was just incidental. Again, seeing how things work.

[Assistant] And the guy you were living with was involved with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I didn't see but I didn't see any whips when I went out to the mission, the mission orphanage. And they were working in the fields and they would be in the school half a day and working the land half the day.

[Assistant] And your involvement was just incidental.

[User] That was just incidental. Again, seeing how things work.

[Assistant] And the guy you were living with was involved with?

[User] With the agricultural co-op.

[Assistant] With that, the one we're talking about here?