[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] —that even though I was reassigned on paper I stayed in the Publication and Sales Branch on a day to day basis until probably March of '68 because that was when they finally found a replacement who was Betty Hill. And I don’t know if I mentioned Howard Greenberg or you want to get into that at all but my assistant in the Publication and Sales was Rose Greenberg. And her husband Howard had been Commissioner of the Utilization and Disposal Service in GSA. And LBJ appointed him Administrator of Small Business. And LBJ tended to appoint careerists to agency head positions unlike virtually every other President. So he took Howard Greenberg out of GSA and he made him Administrator of Small Business. Lawson Knott who was Administrator of GSA had been Commissioner of the Public Building Service and had worked his way up. And I think that LBJ did that in other agencies, too. He basically promoted or reassigned career employees. Anyway once I got to work for Robertson and Williams was my immediate supervisor, before Awkward, as part of the “give them more money” I did the study that resulted in the Regional Archives and another study that resulted in spending a lot of money on preservation including basically redoing the Paper Preservation Lab and drastically expanding the reproduction of microfilm and motion pictures and some recordings.

[Assistant] And we can reference here the material that you had from your file, “Microfilm Publics and Archival Records a Cost Effective Study.”

[User] Yes. And there was a similar study on preservation but I don’t remember the title or have a copy of it. The preservation one, the preservation one is interesting because you opened the cover and we had a picture of nitrate film exploding. And that’s what they sent up on the Hill with their budget request is this picture of nitrate film exploding and why we needed money to copy it.

[Assistant] So the goal was to get more money from Congress, that's what this report really was aiming at?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And that was to do more microfilm or was it part of the regional push for Regional Archives—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And there was a similar study on preservation but I don’t remember the title or have a copy of it. The preservation one, the preservation one is interesting because you opened the cover and we had a picture of nitrate film exploding. And that’s what they sent up on the Hill with their budget request is this picture of nitrate film exploding and why we needed money to copy it.

[Assistant] So the goal was to get more money from Congress, that's what this report really was aiming at?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And that was to do more microfilm or was it part of the regional push for Regional Archives—

[User] [Interposing] Well the whole package was the regions and microfilm and copying movies and sound recordings. And it was not successful.

[Assistant] So what was your idea? What was your push for having Regional Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And that was to do more microfilm or was it part of the regional push for Regional Archives—

[User] [Interposing] Well the whole package was the regions and microfilm and copying movies and sound recordings. And it was not successful.

[Assistant] So what was your idea? What was your push for having Regional Archives?

[User] Well Bahmer, the Seventh Annual Report basically suggests the idea. And Bahmer wanted it done on his way out the door. And Herb Angel because—when Bahmer retired, Rhoads became Archivist. Herb Angel became Deputy Archivist. And Herb Angel was the one who wrote this other thing, “The Report of the Archivist.” So it was sort of put to me as carrying out this vision that they’d had for decades and never been able to do…

[Assistant] Is one of the reasons why to develop a Regional Archives is because there’s permanent records in the field?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Well the whole package was the regions and microfilm and copying movies and sound recordings. And it was not successful.

[Assistant] So what was your idea? What was your push for having Regional Archives?

[User] Well Bahmer, the Seventh Annual Report basically suggests the idea. And Bahmer wanted it done on his way out the door. And Herb Angel because—when Bahmer retired, Rhoads became Archivist. Herb Angel became Deputy Archivist. And Herb Angel was the one who wrote this other thing, “The Report of the Archivist.” So it was sort of put to me as carrying out this vision that they’d had for decades and never been able to do…

[Assistant] Is one of the reasons why to develop a Regional Archives is because there’s permanent records in the field?

[User] Yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] Is it also because of the availability of microfilm in other regions and not having to go to DC to actually view the—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well Bahmer, the Seventh Annual Report basically suggests the idea. And Bahmer wanted it done on his way out the door. And Herb Angel because—when Bahmer retired, Rhoads became Archivist. Herb Angel became Deputy Archivist. And Herb Angel was the one who wrote this other thing, “The Report of the Archivist.” So it was sort of put to me as carrying out this vision that they’d had for decades and never been able to do…

[Assistant] Is one of the reasons why to develop a Regional Archives is because there’s permanent records in the field?

[User] Yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] Is it also because of the availability of microfilm in other regions and not having to go to DC to actually view the—

[User] [Interposing] Yes. Yes yes, and yes, and also to build a presence in the rest of the country. Build a constituency. And I think that’s the notion that's sort of gotten lost. We can come to that later if you want. You need to read the Manifesto for that.

[Assistant] And, okay. And the Manifesto, I will track it down and it will be part of your folder. But the question I think I’ll just ask right now, do you feel that that was a success in your term up until you left in ‘98? The Regional Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yes.

[Assistant] Is it also because of the availability of microfilm in other regions and not having to go to DC to actually view the—

[User] [Interposing] Yes. Yes yes, and yes, and also to build a presence in the rest of the country. Build a constituency. And I think that’s the notion that's sort of gotten lost. We can come to that later if you want. You need to read the Manifesto for that.

[Assistant] And, okay. And the Manifesto, I will track it down and it will be part of your folder. But the question I think I’ll just ask right now, do you feel that that was a success in your term up until you left in ‘98? The Regional Archives?

[User] [Thoughtful pause] Well let’s put it this way as an answer to that question. I don’t think I accomplished everything with the Regional Archives that I envisioned them doing. And I don’t think some of what I accomplished has endured.

[Assistant] Would you like to speak about that now? About what your vision for that or would you like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Yes. Yes yes, and yes, and also to build a presence in the rest of the country. Build a constituency. And I think that’s the notion that's sort of gotten lost. We can come to that later if you want. You need to read the Manifesto for that.

[Assistant] And, okay. And the Manifesto, I will track it down and it will be part of your folder. But the question I think I’ll just ask right now, do you feel that that was a success in your term up until you left in ‘98? The Regional Archives?

[User] [Thoughtful pause] Well let’s put it this way as an answer to that question. I don’t think I accomplished everything with the Regional Archives that I envisioned them doing. And I don’t think some of what I accomplished has endured.

[Assistant] Would you like to speak about that now? About what your vision for that or would you like?

[User] No, let’s go through your questions and come back to that.

[Assistant] Okay. Let’s proceed through the ‘68 to ‘74 Senior Program Analyst.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Thoughtful pause] Well let’s put it this way as an answer to that question. I don’t think I accomplished everything with the Regional Archives that I envisioned them doing. And I don’t think some of what I accomplished has endured.

[Assistant] Would you like to speak about that now? About what your vision for that or would you like?

[User] No, let’s go through your questions and come back to that.

[Assistant] Okay. Let’s proceed through the ‘68 to ‘74 Senior Program Analyst.

[User] So one of the things I did there was write the...it was only a year and a half or two years after the Freedom of Information Act was originally passed. And so I drafted the regulations. We didn’t have any lawyers. You know we weren’t allowed to have lawyers. Bert Rhoads had written a memo to GSA about what the Archives thought should be open and not open which was probably more open than the Archives’ current philosophy is. I worked with Julius Silverstein who was the GSA lawyer assigned to us on drafting regulations. And I think both Julius and Bert were more open than the current management is but I can’t tell you that for sure because I’ve been gone for too many years.

[Assistant] Was this post-Watergate or is this pre-Watergate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, let’s go through your questions and come back to that.

[Assistant] Okay. Let’s proceed through the ‘68 to ‘74 Senior Program Analyst.

[User] So one of the things I did there was write the...it was only a year and a half or two years after the Freedom of Information Act was originally passed. And so I drafted the regulations. We didn’t have any lawyers. You know we weren’t allowed to have lawyers. Bert Rhoads had written a memo to GSA about what the Archives thought should be open and not open which was probably more open than the Archives’ current philosophy is. I worked with Julius Silverstein who was the GSA lawyer assigned to us on drafting regulations. And I think both Julius and Bert were more open than the current management is but I can’t tell you that for sure because I’ve been gone for too many years.

[Assistant] Was this post-Watergate or is this pre-Watergate?

[User] Pre-Watergate. 1968.

[Assistant] So the Freedom of Information Act was before we realized that there may be an actual real need for it out of Watergate, right? Well what do you think was the impetus for implementing regulations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I did the FOIA and then I’d done the regional study. And then a bunch of organizational decisions were made basically at the beginning of ‘69 I think. Lawson Knott quit as Administrator after the election I think it was. After the ‘68 election. Among the last things he did was approve the reorganizations to set up the Regional Archives. And the reorganization to cut the number of NARS Regional Commissioners from 10 to 5. The way it was told to me, I'm not sure it's 100% accurate, but what Robertson told me was that they had a conference call, Knott's last act was a conference call where he told the heads of the various GSA Services that he was leaving and by the way he'd cut the number of NARS regions in half and you can ask the Archivist which…

[Assistant] So can you explain that further? Because I think our audience may not understand the actual setup of the National Archives.

[User] There was a National Archives Regional Commissioner in each of the 10 GSA Regions. And the Regional Commissioner worked for the GSA Regional Administrator. And under the Regional Commissioner there was a Records Management Division and one or more Record Centers. But they worked for the GSA Regional Administrator, not for the National Archives.

[Assistant] And so what Knott did was he cut it down from 1 in each region to 5 overall.

[User] Right. But he also approved setting up an Archives Branch in each Record Center.

[Assistant] So his thought process was to cut from 10 to 5 but expand on regions. Is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a National Archives Regional Commissioner in each of the 10 GSA Regions. And the Regional Commissioner worked for the GSA Regional Administrator. And under the Regional Commissioner there was a Records Management Division and one or more Record Centers. But they worked for the GSA Regional Administrator, not for the National Archives.

[Assistant] And so what Knott did was he cut it down from 1 in each region to 5 overall.

[User] Right. But he also approved setting up an Archives Branch in each Record Center.

[Assistant] So his thought process was to cut from 10 to 5 but expand on regions. Is that?

[User] Well… [Chuckling]. Bert Rhoads’s plan was to cut from 10 to 5 and he got Knott to approve it. Exactly why he wanted to go from 10 to 5, I don't know, but I know… I think that they wanted to be rid of a couple of them for reasons that I don’t fully understand. I guess I shouldn’t say because I don’t really know for a fact.

[Assistant] Can you recall where those 10 regions were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. But he also approved setting up an Archives Branch in each Record Center.

[Assistant] So his thought process was to cut from 10 to 5 but expand on regions. Is that?

[User] Well… [Chuckling]. Bert Rhoads’s plan was to cut from 10 to 5 and he got Knott to approve it. Exactly why he wanted to go from 10 to 5, I don't know, but I know… I think that they wanted to be rid of a couple of them for reasons that I don’t fully understand. I guess I shouldn’t say because I don’t really know for a fact.

[Assistant] Can you recall where those 10 regions were?

[User] Boston was combined with New York. Let’s see. Seattle was combined with San Francisco. But Paul Cole in Seattle was supposed to go to San Francisco and elected to retire rather than go. Chicago and Kansas City were combined. Let’s see. We had New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Fort Worth remained. I think Denver and Fort Worth were combined. We ended up with San Francisco, Fort Worth, New York, Atlanta, and Kansas City.

[Assistant] And in these regions were Federal Record Centers and Record Management personnel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well… [Chuckling]. Bert Rhoads’s plan was to cut from 10 to 5 and he got Knott to approve it. Exactly why he wanted to go from 10 to 5, I don't know, but I know… I think that they wanted to be rid of a couple of them for reasons that I don’t fully understand. I guess I shouldn’t say because I don’t really know for a fact.

[Assistant] Can you recall where those 10 regions were?

[User] Boston was combined with New York. Let’s see. Seattle was combined with San Francisco. But Paul Cole in Seattle was supposed to go to San Francisco and elected to retire rather than go. Chicago and Kansas City were combined. Let’s see. We had New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Fort Worth remained. I think Denver and Fort Worth were combined. We ended up with San Francisco, Fort Worth, New York, Atlanta, and Kansas City.

[Assistant] And in these regions were Federal Record Centers and Record Management personnel?

[User] Well what… restate that.

[Assistant] I’m trying to get an idea of what, of the National Archives, what presence we actually had in each one of these 5 regions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Boston was combined with New York. Let’s see. Seattle was combined with San Francisco. But Paul Cole in Seattle was supposed to go to San Francisco and elected to retire rather than go. Chicago and Kansas City were combined. Let’s see. We had New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Fort Worth remained. I think Denver and Fort Worth were combined. We ended up with San Francisco, Fort Worth, New York, Atlanta, and Kansas City.

[Assistant] And in these regions were Federal Record Centers and Record Management personnel?

[User] Well what… restate that.

[Assistant] I’m trying to get an idea of what, of the National Archives, what presence we actually had in each one of these 5 regions.

[User] Okay, so take the Kansas City Region and you end up with Joe Bosco is the NARS Regional Commissioner in Kansas City. And under him was a Records Management Division in Kansas City and a Records Management Division in Chicago, a Records Center in Chicago, and a Records Center in Kansas City. And by that time I think we had taken the St. Louis away from GSA and transferred it to the Central Office so it was about that time. I forget exactly when that happened. You probably need to find out if you don’t know, check on when the National Personnel Records Center was transferred from the Region to the Central Office because I don’t remember. You're asking me about stuff that’s 50 years ago. [Laughing].

[Assistant] Well I think you have a better idea of it than I do [Laughing].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well what… restate that.

[Assistant] I’m trying to get an idea of what, of the National Archives, what presence we actually had in each one of these 5 regions.

[User] Okay, so take the Kansas City Region and you end up with Joe Bosco is the NARS Regional Commissioner in Kansas City. And under him was a Records Management Division in Kansas City and a Records Management Division in Chicago, a Records Center in Chicago, and a Records Center in Kansas City. And by that time I think we had taken the St. Louis away from GSA and transferred it to the Central Office so it was about that time. I forget exactly when that happened. You probably need to find out if you don’t know, check on when the National Personnel Records Center was transferred from the Region to the Central Office because I don’t remember. You're asking me about stuff that’s 50 years ago. [Laughing].

[Assistant] Well I think you have a better idea of it than I do [Laughing].

[User] Yeah, but I don’t have access to the records or to anybody to go to research on records for me. And it’s been 40-some years since I’ve been in RG 64, so.

[Assistant] Well you’re doing pretty good. Thank you. I appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, so take the Kansas City Region and you end up with Joe Bosco is the NARS Regional Commissioner in Kansas City. And under him was a Records Management Division in Kansas City and a Records Management Division in Chicago, a Records Center in Chicago, and a Records Center in Kansas City. And by that time I think we had taken the St. Louis away from GSA and transferred it to the Central Office so it was about that time. I forget exactly when that happened. You probably need to find out if you don’t know, check on when the National Personnel Records Center was transferred from the Region to the Central Office because I don’t remember. You're asking me about stuff that’s 50 years ago. [Laughing].

[Assistant] Well I think you have a better idea of it than I do [Laughing].

[User] Yeah, but I don’t have access to the records or to anybody to go to research on records for me. And it’s been 40-some years since I’ve been in RG 64, so.

[Assistant] Well you’re doing pretty good. Thank you. I appreciate it.

[User] So it was still continuing during the ‘68 to ‘74 time period, that’s when Prologue began and the National Audiovisual Center began. And I did or supervised most of the work to set up the formal organizations for those and worked with the budget people on the budget requests. And that’s when we recombined the Office of the National Archives, then Military and Civil. I don’t know if you know about the split of the Office of the National Archives back in the 60’s before my time.

[Assistant] Well what happened there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but I don’t have access to the records or to anybody to go to research on records for me. And it’s been 40-some years since I’ve been in RG 64, so.

[Assistant] Well you’re doing pretty good. Thank you. I appreciate it.

[User] So it was still continuing during the ‘68 to ‘74 time period, that’s when Prologue began and the National Audiovisual Center began. And I did or supervised most of the work to set up the formal organizations for those and worked with the budget people on the budget requests. And that’s when we recombined the Office of the National Archives, then Military and Civil. I don’t know if you know about the split of the Office of the National Archives back in the 60’s before my time.

[Assistant] Well what happened there?

[User] Well. There was an Office of the National Archives and Schellenberg was the Assistant Archivist. And I think… this is sort of hearsay now. But I think they wanted to ruin Schellenberg because I think Schellenberg had tried to replace Grover. Now there's some politics there that I was never fully aware of. There’s probably something in other oral history, older oral history that might talk about this. But about the time that happened… probably… ‘61 maybe, somewhere in there, I think the GSA Inspector General did a very critical report on description in the National Archives and said that they were not meeting the goals that they claimed to want for description. And so what was the Office of the National Archives was split into three pieces: an Office of Civil Archives under Herman Kahn to begin with and later Bert Rhoads; an Office of Military Archives under Sherrod East; and then an Office of Records Appraisals under Schellenberg. And Schellenberg got the Appraisal function and Military and Civil ended up with a reference—each with a Reference Division and a Projects Division. A Projects Division to do arrangement and description and the Reference Division to answer the mail and stuff.

[Assistant] Thank you very interesting. I didn’t know that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was still continuing during the ‘68 to ‘74 time period, that’s when Prologue began and the National Audiovisual Center began. And I did or supervised most of the work to set up the formal organizations for those and worked with the budget people on the budget requests. And that’s when we recombined the Office of the National Archives, then Military and Civil. I don’t know if you know about the split of the Office of the National Archives back in the 60’s before my time.

[Assistant] Well what happened there?

[User] Well. There was an Office of the National Archives and Schellenberg was the Assistant Archivist. And I think… this is sort of hearsay now. But I think they wanted to ruin Schellenberg because I think Schellenberg had tried to replace Grover. Now there's some politics there that I was never fully aware of. There’s probably something in other oral history, older oral history that might talk about this. But about the time that happened… probably… ‘61 maybe, somewhere in there, I think the GSA Inspector General did a very critical report on description in the National Archives and said that they were not meeting the goals that they claimed to want for description. And so what was the Office of the National Archives was split into three pieces: an Office of Civil Archives under Herman Kahn to begin with and later Bert Rhoads; an Office of Military Archives under Sherrod East; and then an Office of Records Appraisals under Schellenberg. And Schellenberg got the Appraisal function and Military and Civil ended up with a reference—each with a Reference Division and a Projects Division. A Projects Division to do arrangement and description and the Reference Division to answer the mail and stuff.

[Assistant] Thank you very interesting. I didn’t know that.

[User] Hmm. Well you or Jessie or somebody ought to get into that but that’s beyond the scope of this, I think, unless you want to come back to it another—see that split happened before my time.

[Assistant] Well it gives a good context of what we’re facing with now, here in ‘68 to ‘74—still trying to deal with this.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. Well you or Jessie or somebody ought to get into that but that’s beyond the scope of this, I think, unless you want to come back to it another—see that split happened before my time.

[Assistant] Well it gives a good context of what we’re facing with now, here in ‘68 to ‘74—still trying to deal with this.

[User] Well, well yeah, we’re—see I never really liked it but I don’t like a lot of stuff so. [Chuckling]. I was never really happy with the Reference Projects Division either but… And I was never happy with the machine-readable records the way it was set up. Anyway, during this whole time period I probably went through most of 1964. Looking at the history of records management and the history of the Trust Fund and related legislation. And that’s either a later call or something. Because I probably can give you some kind of an overview of how the Records Management Program came to be.

[Assistant] I would like to do that. Would that be something you’d want to do now or you would want to possibly revisit at another time?

[User] No, let’s continue the main line of your questions and you can write that down as something else to get into.

[Assistant] Okay. And you also mentioned it on the last part of your questions, in question number 20 as something you wanted to revisit.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, well yeah, we’re—see I never really liked it but I don’t like a lot of stuff so. [Chuckling]. I was never really happy with the Reference Projects Division either but… And I was never happy with the machine-readable records the way it was set up. Anyway, during this whole time period I probably went through most of 1964. Looking at the history of records management and the history of the Trust Fund and related legislation. And that’s either a later call or something. Because I probably can give you some kind of an overview of how the Records Management Program came to be.

[Assistant] I would like to do that. Would that be something you’d want to do now or you would want to possibly revisit at another time?

[User] No, let’s continue the main line of your questions and you can write that down as something else to get into.

[Assistant] Okay. And you also mentioned it on the last part of your questions, in question number 20 as something you wanted to revisit.

[User] Okay. During this time period the Privacy Act was passed. And the original bill for the Privacy Act would have killed us. And so Claudine Weiher who was my assistant at the time and who was the second person to replace me in the Publication Sales Branch, Claudine ran a sort of sub-rosa lobbying effort to get out from under the Privacy Act. Because, for example, the Privacy Act as originally drafted required separate notices to the subject of every record about being in that record without any conditions or restrictions. And we concluded that to comply with that bill, we would have to send out I don’t know how many thousand letters to George Washington in Mount Vernon, Virginia. Separate letters. Do you like that?

[Assistant] Yes. I do, that’s quite interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’d never done a real schedule of NARS records. You know? And we had a bunch of stuff at RG 64 but there was no real schedule. There was no handbook or anything for records. In theory under the very highly centralized GSA scheme that should have been done by somebody over in the GSA office. That's something I inherited when GSA decentralized some of the administrative stuff. So… I ended up with somebody who was supposed to do that and under my supervision and he, that didn’t work out very well. I finally, you know, we got started but getting the routine day to day stuff written and stuff wasn’t working very well and so I worked out a deal with, I think it was Jack L. Martin, who was the GSA Records Officer to send a guy over to GSA to do it under their supervision. And he ended up staying there.

[Assistant] So at this point the National Archives didn’t want a records schedule.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were GSA requiring all agencies at this time to have a records schedule?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yet it failed to have one for the National Archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were GSA requiring all agencies at this time to have a records schedule?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yet it failed to have one for the National Archives.

[User] Well most of the rest of GSA didn’t have one either. And I gather, I’m not sure, but I rather gathered that the Records Management Office, you know, which was Ed Aldridge at the time I guess, was critical of the main part of the agency for not having a schedule. What Robertson had, a 3-drawer file cabinet next to his desk or on the wall by his desk. And on it he had a stack, probably 3 feet high, of file folders with projects that he wanted done some day. That was one of them but once I started in that ‘68 to ‘74 period, every time I asked for more work or somebody was free, he’d pull another folder off the pile and say, well, here’s another project for you. Records management was one of them or record schedule was one. Improving the Forms Program was one.

[Assistant] So slowly but surely Record Management was getting or closing into the National Archives at some point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yet it failed to have one for the National Archives.

[User] Well most of the rest of GSA didn’t have one either. And I gather, I’m not sure, but I rather gathered that the Records Management Office, you know, which was Ed Aldridge at the time I guess, was critical of the main part of the agency for not having a schedule. What Robertson had, a 3-drawer file cabinet next to his desk or on the wall by his desk. And on it he had a stack, probably 3 feet high, of file folders with projects that he wanted done some day. That was one of them but once I started in that ‘68 to ‘74 period, every time I asked for more work or somebody was free, he’d pull another folder off the pile and say, well, here’s another project for you. Records management was one of them or record schedule was one. Improving the Forms Program was one.

[Assistant] So slowly but surely Record Management was getting or closing into the National Archives at some point.

[User] You know and in some ways the Archives never really had a good Records Management Program until Ren Cahoon who put Richard Marcus on it which was much later.

[Assistant] I’ll mention that when I do my interview with Richard Marcus who is still around.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well most of the rest of GSA didn’t have one either. And I gather, I’m not sure, but I rather gathered that the Records Management Office, you know, which was Ed Aldridge at the time I guess, was critical of the main part of the agency for not having a schedule. What Robertson had, a 3-drawer file cabinet next to his desk or on the wall by his desk. And on it he had a stack, probably 3 feet high, of file folders with projects that he wanted done some day. That was one of them but once I started in that ‘68 to ‘74 period, every time I asked for more work or somebody was free, he’d pull another folder off the pile and say, well, here’s another project for you. Records management was one of them or record schedule was one. Improving the Forms Program was one.

[Assistant] So slowly but surely Record Management was getting or closing into the National Archives at some point.

[User] You know and in some ways the Archives never really had a good Records Management Program until Ren Cahoon who put Richard Marcus on it which was much later.

[Assistant] I’ll mention that when I do my interview with Richard Marcus who is still around.

[User] He was one of the good guys.

[Assistant] Yeah, he is. He’s a really good man. So this, well, yeah, in 1974 to 1979, just for pacing’s sake, John, how about if it’s okay with you, we're going to be coming up at 2:30 to an hour here. I mean do you want to continue on to the end or would you rather break it up at some point and maybe schedule another time to finish the second half of this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know and in some ways the Archives never really had a good Records Management Program until Ren Cahoon who put Richard Marcus on it which was much later.

[Assistant] I’ll mention that when I do my interview with Richard Marcus who is still around.

[User] He was one of the good guys.

[Assistant] Yeah, he is. He’s a really good man. So this, well, yeah, in 1974 to 1979, just for pacing’s sake, John, how about if it’s okay with you, we're going to be coming up at 2:30 to an hour here. I mean do you want to continue on to the end or would you rather break it up at some point and maybe schedule another time to finish the second half of this?

[User] Well let’s just go through ‘74 to ‘79 and then see where we stand.

[Assistant] Okay. We can do that. Let’s talk about the coordination of the Staff Office of the National Archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was one of the good guys.

[Assistant] Yeah, he is. He’s a really good man. So this, well, yeah, in 1974 to 1979, just for pacing’s sake, John, how about if it’s okay with you, we're going to be coming up at 2:30 to an hour here. I mean do you want to continue on to the end or would you rather break it up at some point and maybe schedule another time to finish the second half of this?

[User] Well let’s just go through ‘74 to ‘79 and then see where we stand.

[Assistant] Okay. We can do that. Let’s talk about the coordination of the Staff Office of the National Archives.

[User] New staff and… oh, there were a couple of reasons. One, they were getting flack again over not having records described and NARS A-1 was seen as a way of getting it done. Partly because I think I wanted out of the Office of what was the new Office of the Executive Director because that’s about the time Walt Robertson was going to retire and it was clear that Jack Landers was going to replace him and I didn’t want to work for Jack. Now I’m not sure I want that on the record. Is anybody interviewing Jack?

[Assistant] No, I don’t know. I haven’t actually heard the name until you just mentioned it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well let’s just go through ‘74 to ‘79 and then see where we stand.

[Assistant] Okay. We can do that. Let’s talk about the coordination of the Staff Office of the National Archives.

[User] New staff and… oh, there were a couple of reasons. One, they were getting flack again over not having records described and NARS A-1 was seen as a way of getting it done. Partly because I think I wanted out of the Office of what was the new Office of the Executive Director because that’s about the time Walt Robertson was going to retire and it was clear that Jack Landers was going to replace him and I didn’t want to work for Jack. Now I’m not sure I want that on the record. Is anybody interviewing Jack?

[Assistant] No, I don’t know. I haven’t actually heard the name until you just mentioned it.

[User] John J. Landers, he was a GSA Management intern two years before I was. He ended up in the Archives. He became the Assistant Archivist before he became the Executive Director or Assistant Archivist head or whatever. When he was in that job Claudine Weiher was his assistant. When the Records Management was taken away from the Archives he went with the Records Management Program. That’s in the next ‘80-’81 period.

[Assistant] Okay. And at this time between ‘74 and ‘79 he was going to be your supervisor and you decided against having him as a supervisor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] New staff and… oh, there were a couple of reasons. One, they were getting flack again over not having records described and NARS A-1 was seen as a way of getting it done. Partly because I think I wanted out of the Office of what was the new Office of the Executive Director because that’s about the time Walt Robertson was going to retire and it was clear that Jack Landers was going to replace him and I didn’t want to work for Jack. Now I’m not sure I want that on the record. Is anybody interviewing Jack?

[Assistant] No, I don’t know. I haven’t actually heard the name until you just mentioned it.

[User] John J. Landers, he was a GSA Management intern two years before I was. He ended up in the Archives. He became the Assistant Archivist before he became the Executive Director or Assistant Archivist head or whatever. When he was in that job Claudine Weiher was his assistant. When the Records Management was taken away from the Archives he went with the Records Management Program. That’s in the next ‘80-’81 period.

[Assistant] Okay. And at this time between ‘74 and ‘79 he was going to be your supervisor and you decided against having him as a supervisor.

[User] Yeah. I told the Archivist that I would rather work in the Office of the National Archives than work for Jack.

[Assistant] Okay. We don’t have to get into personalities on that one. Could you briefly just describe what NARS A-1 is?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] No, it wasn’t that they didn't want us to spend the money, we weren’t allowed to have computers. Only GSA, GSA Centralized Computer Services. They happened to be in the region at that time but GSA had centralized computer services, individual services were not allowed to have computers. You see why we didn’t like being in GSA. What would you think if they told you that you can save something to a disk but you can save the data on a spreadsheet to a disk but you can't sort it except by sending it to Washington and having somebody sort it for you and send you a printout back?

[Assistant] Yeah, same thing.

[User] That’s sort of like copying, you know where we had centralize copying services at first and you had to fill out a chit and send stuff to the regional office building if you wanted it copied. And we got around that by having the trust fund by copying machines for reference.

[Assistant] Yeah, these examples are good for when we talk about the moving away, independence from GSA.

[User] But anyway. Alan figured out that this and nobody paid much attention to the equipment that the Silent Studio bought for processing silent records and stuff so we had them buy the circuit card and put it in. So we were able to do description and do some processing of it that way. And started working on a lot of things including RG 21 and it was RG 21 I think that set off the blast between Trudy and me.

[Assistant] Okay. And you’re referencing at correspondent email that would be in your folder.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s sort of like copying, you know where we had centralize copying services at first and you had to fill out a chit and send stuff to the regional office building if you wanted it copied. And we got around that by having the trust fund by copying machines for reference.

[Assistant] Yeah, these examples are good for when we talk about the moving away, independence from GSA.

[User] But anyway. Alan figured out that this and nobody paid much attention to the equipment that the Silent Studio bought for processing silent records and stuff so we had them buy the circuit card and put it in. So we were able to do description and do some processing of it that way. And started working on a lot of things including RG 21 and it was RG 21 I think that set off the blast between Trudy and me.

[Assistant] Okay. And you’re referencing at correspondent email that would be in your folder.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to get into the pushing out by O’Neill, Reed, and Peterson of you after Rhoads and Dietrich retired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Do you want to get into the pushing out by O’Neill, Reed, and Peterson of you after Rhoads and Dietrich retired?

[User] Well, let me talk a little more about leading up to that because during this time and probably I think it was ‘73 when the government changed fiscal years, they changed the beginning of the fiscal year there was what they called an interim quarter. And the way the budget worked out we had a lot of money, the agency had a lot of money for a quarter that it didn't know how to spend. And so Claudine and I came up with a plan for buying shelving to put in areas that had never had shelving and there were like 43 stack areas that were never shelved originally. That either had prison industry shelving in them or steel trays piled up on the floor or, you know, stuff every which way. So we bought that shelving, I think it was ‘73, it might have been ‘72. After Mabel Dietrich became the Assistant Archivist, in effect, became in effect, her Number Two. Al Eisinger was reassigned. He’d been the Deputy Assistant Archivist under Ned Campbell. When Mabel retired, Mabel had retired about the same time Bert Rhoads retired. And O’Neill l took over as Acting Archivist and Dan Reed came out of retirement, he was a pre-employed annuitant, to replace Mabel. And Trudy, he wanted Trudy as his right hand. So I was invited to leave.

[Assistant] Do you want to get into...I’ll just say that you say whatever you feel comfortable saying about this incident if there's anything more you’d like to tell me.

[User] I don’t think O'Neill or Reed had the confidence in me that Rhoads and Dietrich had. And it was clear that they did not want me to stay in that position.

[Assistant] Was it personal or professional? The things that you think it was based on.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, let me talk a little more about leading up to that because during this time and probably I think it was ‘73 when the government changed fiscal years, they changed the beginning of the fiscal year there was what they called an interim quarter. And the way the budget worked out we had a lot of money, the agency had a lot of money for a quarter that it didn't know how to spend. And so Claudine and I came up with a plan for buying shelving to put in areas that had never had shelving and there were like 43 stack areas that were never shelved originally. That either had prison industry shelving in them or steel trays piled up on the floor or, you know, stuff every which way. So we bought that shelving, I think it was ‘73, it might have been ‘72. After Mabel Dietrich became the Assistant Archivist, in effect, became in effect, her Number Two. Al Eisinger was reassigned. He’d been the Deputy Assistant Archivist under Ned Campbell. When Mabel retired, Mabel had retired about the same time Bert Rhoads retired. And O’Neill l took over as Acting Archivist and Dan Reed came out of retirement, he was a pre-employed annuitant, to replace Mabel. And Trudy, he wanted Trudy as his right hand. So I was invited to leave.

[Assistant] Do you want to get into...I’ll just say that you say whatever you feel comfortable saying about this incident if there's anything more you’d like to tell me.

[User] I don’t think O'Neill or Reed had the confidence in me that Rhoads and Dietrich had. And it was clear that they did not want me to stay in that position.

[Assistant] Was it personal or professional? The things that you think it was based on.

[User] You’d have to ask them. I don’t know if anybody’s interviewed Trudy.

[Assistant] No, she’s on my list though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think O'Neill or Reed had the confidence in me that Rhoads and Dietrich had. And it was clear that they did not want me to stay in that position.

[Assistant] Was it personal or professional? The things that you think it was based on.

[User] You’d have to ask them. I don’t know if anybody’s interviewed Trudy.

[Assistant] No, she’s on my list though.

[User] O’Neill's dead, I don’t know what the status of Reed is. He’s probably dead ‘cause he was a lot older. I don’t think Trudy and I were ever really friends. So you’d have to ask Trudy why she thinks I left. But the way it played out is Forrest Williams who had been my boss part of the time in the Office of the Executive Director, and who was one of the worst bosses I ever had, came in and suggested to me that I might be happier in the Office of Records Management. And I went and told Reed that and he and Trudy sat down with me and said if, if Williams made you an offer you'd better take it.

[Assistant] How did you feel about the move personally?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You’d have to ask them. I don’t know if anybody’s interviewed Trudy.

[Assistant] No, she’s on my list though.

[User] O’Neill's dead, I don’t know what the status of Reed is. He’s probably dead ‘cause he was a lot older. I don’t think Trudy and I were ever really friends. So you’d have to ask Trudy why she thinks I left. But the way it played out is Forrest Williams who had been my boss part of the time in the Office of the Executive Director, and who was one of the worst bosses I ever had, came in and suggested to me that I might be happier in the Office of Records Management. And I went and told Reed that and he and Trudy sat down with me and said if, if Williams made you an offer you'd better take it.

[Assistant] How did you feel about the move personally?

[User] I was very unhappy. But I didn't see that I could object or fight it.

[Assistant] Did you at that time have a feeling that maybe Record Management would be a strength of yours which eventually it became?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] O’Neill's dead, I don’t know what the status of Reed is. He’s probably dead ‘cause he was a lot older. I don’t think Trudy and I were ever really friends. So you’d have to ask Trudy why she thinks I left. But the way it played out is Forrest Williams who had been my boss part of the time in the Office of the Executive Director, and who was one of the worst bosses I ever had, came in and suggested to me that I might be happier in the Office of Records Management. And I went and told Reed that and he and Trudy sat down with me and said if, if Williams made you an offer you'd better take it.

[Assistant] How did you feel about the move personally?

[User] I was very unhappy. But I didn't see that I could object or fight it.

[Assistant] Did you at that time have a feeling that maybe Record Management would be a strength of yours which eventually it became?

[User] I was under the impression at the time that Frosty was just—Frosty wasn’t—everybody called him Frosty was destroying the Office of Records Management. Like I said, I didn’t want to go, I didn’t see as I had much choice. I… seriously looked at other employment at the time. But it didn’t work out.

[Assistant] And you felt that that was kind of like an exile for you into Record Management?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was very unhappy. But I didn't see that I could object or fight it.

[Assistant] Did you at that time have a feeling that maybe Record Management would be a strength of yours which eventually it became?

[User] I was under the impression at the time that Frosty was just—Frosty wasn’t—everybody called him Frosty was destroying the Office of Records Management. Like I said, I didn’t want to go, I didn’t see as I had much choice. I… seriously looked at other employment at the time. But it didn’t work out.

[Assistant] And you felt that that was kind of like an exile for you into Record Management?

[User] Yes. And I don’t think the position and division they put me in were even necessary.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you’d like to say about this moment of you being pushed out of that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And I don’t think the position and division they put me in were even necessary.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you’d like to say about this moment of you being pushed out of that position?

[User] [Thoughtful pause]. No, but backing up a little to that time from ‘74 to ‘79 I supervised Charles Halt who was then the Regional Archives Coordinator. And one of the things we did during that period was dramatically increase the size of the Regional Archives staff. I sort of skipped over that. Roots came out during that time and the workload increased several fold. You know the reference workload.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And we dramatically increased the Regional Archive staff and if you’d asked me 15 years ago I probably could have given you numbers but I don’t remember now. But when I left the Office of the National Archives, the staff in the Regional Archives Program was probably close to twice the size it was when I went back into the Regional Archives Program five years later. So during the time I was not involved in the Regional Archives Program, it got cut dramatically.

[Assistant] And do you think that Roots in some ways helped to fortify the Regional Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Thoughtful pause]. No, but backing up a little to that time from ‘74 to ‘79 I supervised Charles Halt who was then the Regional Archives Coordinator. And one of the things we did during that period was dramatically increase the size of the Regional Archives staff. I sort of skipped over that. Roots came out during that time and the workload increased several fold. You know the reference workload.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And we dramatically increased the Regional Archive staff and if you’d asked me 15 years ago I probably could have given you numbers but I don’t remember now. But when I left the Office of the National Archives, the staff in the Regional Archives Program was probably close to twice the size it was when I went back into the Regional Archives Program five years later. So during the time I was not involved in the Regional Archives Program, it got cut dramatically.

[Assistant] And do you think that Roots in some ways helped to fortify the Regional Archives?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In an interview from somebody that had given an interview in the past two years, his name is David Kepley, he had mentioned that Roots had helped to increase the amount of traffic through the National Archives by at least tenfold.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we dramatically increased the Regional Archive staff and if you’d asked me 15 years ago I probably could have given you numbers but I don’t remember now. But when I left the Office of the National Archives, the staff in the Regional Archives Program was probably close to twice the size it was when I went back into the Regional Archives Program five years later. So during the time I was not involved in the Regional Archives Program, it got cut dramatically.

[Assistant] And do you think that Roots in some ways helped to fortify the Regional Archives?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In an interview from somebody that had given an interview in the past two years, his name is David Kepley, he had mentioned that Roots had helped to increase the amount of traffic through the National Archives by at least tenfold.

[User] That’s probably about right. I could have given you numbers, like I said, if I remembered them years ago but… it was almost overnight. And it was both in Washington and in all the regions. You interviewed David’s wife?

[Assistant] No, I haven’t. And you recommend she be interviewed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In an interview from somebody that had given an interview in the past two years, his name is David Kepley, he had mentioned that Roots had helped to increase the amount of traffic through the National Archives by at least tenfold.

[User] That’s probably about right. I could have given you numbers, like I said, if I remembered them years ago but… it was almost overnight. And it was both in Washington and in all the regions. You interviewed David’s wife?

[Assistant] No, I haven’t. And you recommend she be interviewed?

[User] Well I… yeah.

[Assistant] I know she’s on my list but I’ll make sure I get in contact with her. Do you think at this point revisiting some of the Regional Archives work that you did during this period, do you think that there were forces within the National Archives that were working against the Regional Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s probably about right. I could have given you numbers, like I said, if I remembered them years ago but… it was almost overnight. And it was both in Washington and in all the regions. You interviewed David’s wife?

[Assistant] No, I haven’t. And you recommend she be interviewed?

[User] Well I… yeah.

[Assistant] I know she’s on my list but I’ll make sure I get in contact with her. Do you think at this point revisiting some of the Regional Archives work that you did during this period, do you think that there were forces within the National Archives that were working against the Regional Archives?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Why would you think that that would be the case?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I… yeah.

[Assistant] I know she’s on my list but I’ll make sure I get in contact with her. Do you think at this point revisiting some of the Regional Archives work that you did during this period, do you think that there were forces within the National Archives that were working against the Regional Archives?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Why would you think that that would be the case?

[User] Well there were some people who didn’t believe in the Regional Archives at all. And some people who thought we shouldn’t be sending records to the regions but we ought to be keeping them all in Washington. And people that were of the opinion that the only thing they have worthwhile is microfilm and that’s not professional so you don’t, you know, you’re just a reading room. I was getting a lot of description work out of the regions in terms of NARS A-1. You know input for NARS A-1 inventories, but they were routine stuff, repetitive stuff. Like in RG 21 where everybody has the same kind of records but they were turning out a lot of stuff. Most of which got trashed eventually. When NARS A-1 got trashed.

[Assistant] So you think that the regions were actually collecting lots of regional permanent records?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Why would you think that that would be the case?

[User] Well there were some people who didn’t believe in the Regional Archives at all. And some people who thought we shouldn’t be sending records to the regions but we ought to be keeping them all in Washington. And people that were of the opinion that the only thing they have worthwhile is microfilm and that’s not professional so you don’t, you know, you’re just a reading room. I was getting a lot of description work out of the regions in terms of NARS A-1. You know input for NARS A-1 inventories, but they were routine stuff, repetitive stuff. Like in RG 21 where everybody has the same kind of records but they were turning out a lot of stuff. Most of which got trashed eventually. When NARS A-1 got trashed.

[Assistant] So you think that the regions were actually collecting lots of regional permanent records?

[User] Well they weren’t getting as many permanent records, the big fight was over sending records from Washington to the regions. And there were space problems. You know this is before Archives II, this is before Archives II was really even much of a dream. And it was clear that if we didn’t get another building in Washington more things had to go to the regions because there just wasn’t room in Washington in the National Archives Building. At one point we moved records to the Lansburgh Department Store but that didn’t work out very well.

[Assistant] That was in downtown DC?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well there were some people who didn’t believe in the Regional Archives at all. And some people who thought we shouldn’t be sending records to the regions but we ought to be keeping them all in Washington. And people that were of the opinion that the only thing they have worthwhile is microfilm and that’s not professional so you don’t, you know, you’re just a reading room. I was getting a lot of description work out of the regions in terms of NARS A-1. You know input for NARS A-1 inventories, but they were routine stuff, repetitive stuff. Like in RG 21 where everybody has the same kind of records but they were turning out a lot of stuff. Most of which got trashed eventually. When NARS A-1 got trashed.

[Assistant] So you think that the regions were actually collecting lots of regional permanent records?

[User] Well they weren’t getting as many permanent records, the big fight was over sending records from Washington to the regions. And there were space problems. You know this is before Archives II, this is before Archives II was really even much of a dream. And it was clear that if we didn’t get another building in Washington more things had to go to the regions because there just wasn’t room in Washington in the National Archives Building. At one point we moved records to the Lansburgh Department Store but that didn’t work out very well.

[Assistant] That was in downtown DC?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was a part of it, I gather, a big part of it was financial.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well they weren’t getting as many permanent records, the big fight was over sending records from Washington to the regions. And there were space problems. You know this is before Archives II, this is before Archives II was really even much of a dream. And it was clear that if we didn’t get another building in Washington more things had to go to the regions because there just wasn’t room in Washington in the National Archives Building. At one point we moved records to the Lansburgh Department Store but that didn’t work out very well.

[Assistant] That was in downtown DC?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was a part of it, I gather, a big part of it was financial.

[User] Yes. And there was talk even in the 70’s about another building and where to put another building and the dream at one time was to build across Pennsylvania Avenue from the Archives. Basically in the block where the Navy Memorial and stuff is between 7th and 9th and between D Street and say F Street. Apparently there had been talk back in the 50’s or 60’s about building on the other side of Independence Avenue where the skating rink is. That was not doable from an engineering standpoint. So there was talk about building across Pennsylvania Avenue which would have been next door or across the street from the FBI Building. And from what the GSA people who worked on the FBI Building said that probably would have been an engineering nightmare also. It was a water problem. The Archives Building is built on a creek. Did you know that?

[Assistant] No, I didn’t.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was a part of it, I gather, a big part of it was financial.

[User] Yes. And there was talk even in the 70’s about another building and where to put another building and the dream at one time was to build across Pennsylvania Avenue from the Archives. Basically in the block where the Navy Memorial and stuff is between 7th and 9th and between D Street and say F Street. Apparently there had been talk back in the 50’s or 60’s about building on the other side of Independence Avenue where the skating rink is. That was not doable from an engineering standpoint. So there was talk about building across Pennsylvania Avenue which would have been next door or across the street from the FBI Building. And from what the GSA people who worked on the FBI Building said that probably would have been an engineering nightmare also. It was a water problem. The Archives Building is built on a creek. Did you know that?

[Assistant] No, I didn’t.

[User] It’s built on Tiber Creek. And in some ways it floats on a huge saucer. And one of the GSA people told me when they build the FBI Building, they had to get 5 floors built before they stopped pumping water out of the basement. You know there are sub basements and apparently it kept popping up or wanting to pop up because of the water table. And almost to the top floor before they had enough weight to hold it in without pumping water out. The Federal Triangle is basically a swamp.

[Assistant] [Chuckling]. Nice to know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And there was talk even in the 70’s about another building and where to put another building and the dream at one time was to build across Pennsylvania Avenue from the Archives. Basically in the block where the Navy Memorial and stuff is between 7th and 9th and between D Street and say F Street. Apparently there had been talk back in the 50’s or 60’s about building on the other side of Independence Avenue where the skating rink is. That was not doable from an engineering standpoint. So there was talk about building across Pennsylvania Avenue which would have been next door or across the street from the FBI Building. And from what the GSA people who worked on the FBI Building said that probably would have been an engineering nightmare also. It was a water problem. The Archives Building is built on a creek. Did you know that?

[Assistant] No, I didn’t.

[User] It’s built on Tiber Creek. And in some ways it floats on a huge saucer. And one of the GSA people told me when they build the FBI Building, they had to get 5 floors built before they stopped pumping water out of the basement. You know there are sub basements and apparently it kept popping up or wanting to pop up because of the water table. And almost to the top floor before they had enough weight to hold it in without pumping water out. The Federal Triangle is basically a swamp.

[Assistant] [Chuckling]. Nice to know.

[User] Well it’s been flooded, too. The fancy theater they built after I retired where the moat was and stuff that flooded after—you know I haven’t been in the building since it flooded but it flooded at some point.

[Assistant] We can talk about the Regional Archives a little bit more here if you like before we either move onto the next one or maybe break for the day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s built on Tiber Creek. And in some ways it floats on a huge saucer. And one of the GSA people told me when they build the FBI Building, they had to get 5 floors built before they stopped pumping water out of the basement. You know there are sub basements and apparently it kept popping up or wanting to pop up because of the water table. And almost to the top floor before they had enough weight to hold it in without pumping water out. The Federal Triangle is basically a swamp.

[Assistant] [Chuckling]. Nice to know.

[User] Well it’s been flooded, too. The fancy theater they built after I retired where the moat was and stuff that flooded after—you know I haven’t been in the building since it flooded but it flooded at some point.

[Assistant] We can talk about the Regional Archives a little bit more here if you like before we either move onto the next one or maybe break for the day?

[User] Let’s continue up until the time I came back from the Federal Executive Institute and then go onto the Regional Archives. So this at the end of the ‘79-’80 period. At that point the GSA decided that they took the Office of Records Management away from the Archives. So the Office of Records Management that had been part of what came out of the Federal Records Act, that’s another discussion I guess, but the Records Management Program was transferred out of the Archives to somewhere else in GSA. And Jack Landers became the Office head ‘cause Forrest Williams retired. At that time there was also a major RIF and I think 17% of the Archives staff got cut. And they tried to get rid of me.

[Assistant] May I ask who they are?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well it’s been flooded, too. The fancy theater they built after I retired where the moat was and stuff that flooded after—you know I haven’t been in the building since it flooded but it flooded at some point.

[Assistant] We can talk about the Regional Archives a little bit more here if you like before we either move onto the next one or maybe break for the day?

[User] Let’s continue up until the time I came back from the Federal Executive Institute and then go onto the Regional Archives. So this at the end of the ‘79-’80 period. At that point the GSA decided that they took the Office of Records Management away from the Archives. So the Office of Records Management that had been part of what came out of the Federal Records Act, that’s another discussion I guess, but the Records Management Program was transferred out of the Archives to somewhere else in GSA. And Jack Landers became the Office head ‘cause Forrest Williams retired. At that time there was also a major RIF and I think 17% of the Archives staff got cut. And they tried to get rid of me.

[Assistant] May I ask who they are?

[User] Maybe in another interview.

[Assistant] All right. Don't say anything that you don’t—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Interposing] Well I still have Claudine Weiher’s knives in my back.

[Assistant] [Chuckling]

[User] You know I… I don't want to talk about that now, maybe in a later call.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But anyway I got a RIF letter and they concluded that I was not qualified to bump anybody in the program analysis, management analyst, or archivist series. So they were going to send me either out on the street or somewhere else in GSA. Because they had reassigned me to be the Deputy Assistant Archivist for Records Management without telling me. I only found that out when somebody in Personnel snuck me the paperwork. And then they abolished that job after they put me in it.

[Assistant] So that was done, in your opinion, purposely.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know I… I don't want to talk about that now, maybe in a later call.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] But anyway I got a RIF letter and they concluded that I was not qualified to bump anybody in the program analysis, management analyst, or archivist series. So they were going to send me either out on the street or somewhere else in GSA. Because they had reassigned me to be the Deputy Assistant Archivist for Records Management without telling me. I only found that out when somebody in Personnel snuck me the paperwork. And then they abolished that job after they put me in it.

[Assistant] So that was done, in your opinion, purposely.

[User] Yes. And it turns out or it turned out that I had more friends in the Administrator's Office than the Archivist or Claudine.

[Assistant] So can you say who saved your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And it turns out or it turned out that I had more friends in the Administrator's Office than the Archivist or Claudine.

[Assistant] So can you say who saved your job?

[User] Jerry Fox. Jerry Fox was an Assistant to the Administrator or Assistant to the Deputy Administrator. And two people on his immediate staff at the time where John Hawsell who had worked for me in the ‘74 to ‘79 period and later became the Chief of the Archives Budget Branch but he was in GSA by then. And Peggy Neustadt or Margaret Neustadt. I guess she’s been a GSA Management Intern but she spent half a year working for me. They took my case to Jerry Fox who was on the Administrator’s staff and I’m not sure what happened but Claudine called me and said, okay, they were going to take care of me and don’t think Jerry Fox told her what to do. [Laughing]. And I said oh? [Laughter] So they assigned me to Special Assistant or Executive Assistant to the Assistant Archivist for the National Archives and gave me a desk and a secretary without a telephone. 15W1 I think it was. And I sat there probably for a year and a half until they sent me to the Federal Executive Institute. When I came back from the Federal Executive Institute I guess the view of my value had changed. I ended up in Room 100 where the Assistant Archivist for the National Archives had the 100 Suite, and 100 and I think the Assistant Archivist was in the other room. But then when I came back from Charlottesville on the 9th Street side, there was a partition. I don’t know if there still is. Dick Jacobs was on one side of it and they put me on the other side of it. Dick was starting to work on independence stuff. And so Dick kept giving me stuff to do and then we can quit there and I’ll talk about independence later.

[Assistant] Okay. And that takes us up to 1980.

[User] That takes us up to about 1982, spring of 1982.

[Assistant] Okay. So would you like to begin there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That takes us up to about 1982, spring of 1982.

[Assistant] Okay. So would you like to begin there?

[User] Probably mid April or a little later. I think my son’s birthday was when I was in Charlottesville. So probably late April, early May 1982. Now you want to talk more about the regions before we quit and come back to independence next time?

[Assistant] Sure. We’ll begin in spring of 1982 the next time and we’ll talk about the regions at this point.

[User] Okay. What do you want to know about the regions? [Laughing].

[Assistant] What I want to know is it began in 1969, and that was born out of exactly what documents? Did you help to create? And what were the reasons for the Regional Archives in ‘69? Can you take us up to maybe the funding in the regions and its importance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably mid April or a little later. I think my son’s birthday was when I was in Charlottesville. So probably late April, early May 1982. Now you want to talk more about the regions before we quit and come back to independence next time?

[Assistant] Sure. We’ll begin in spring of 1982 the next time and we’ll talk about the regions at this point.

[User] Okay. What do you want to know about the regions? [Laughing].

[Assistant] What I want to know is it began in 1969, and that was born out of exactly what documents? Did you help to create? And what were the reasons for the Regional Archives in ‘69? Can you take us up to maybe the funding in the regions and its importance?

[User] Like I said I think you can find the idea for the Regional Archives Program on page 6 of the Seventh Annual Report of the Archivist.

[Assistant] Okay. And that is in the records as John’s told me.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like I said I think you can find the idea for the Regional Archives Program on page 6 of the Seventh Annual Report of the Archivist.

[Assistant] Okay. And that is in the records as John’s told me.

[User] Yeah. Well that’s one of the things I told you to get.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And I don’t have a copy of that on my screen in front of me so.

[Assistant] Well, what they said in that document just for the record was that records in the regions were worth as much as the records in DC so it gave an importance to the regions as having records, as many records as in the DC area.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well that’s one of the things I told you to get.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And I don’t have a copy of that on my screen in front of me so.

[Assistant] Well, what they said in that document just for the record was that records in the regions were worth as much as the records in DC so it gave an importance to the regions as having records, as many records as in the DC area.

[User] The one thing that I didn’t talk about and I don’t know a whole lot about, the WPA Historical Records Survey had its offices in the National Archives Building during the Depression. And so the people that were running the Archives in 1939 to the beginning of the war period were probably pretty familiar with what records were scattered around the country that ought to be kept permanently either in the National Archives or somewhere else.

[Assistant] So I’m assuming that those WPA Records stayed in that building when they left.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I don’t have a copy of that on my screen in front of me so.

[Assistant] Well, what they said in that document just for the record was that records in the regions were worth as much as the records in DC so it gave an importance to the regions as having records, as many records as in the DC area.

[User] The one thing that I didn’t talk about and I don’t know a whole lot about, the WPA Historical Records Survey had its offices in the National Archives Building during the Depression. And so the people that were running the Archives in 1939 to the beginning of the war period were probably pretty familiar with what records were scattered around the country that ought to be kept permanently either in the National Archives or somewhere else.

[Assistant] So I’m assuming that those WPA Records stayed in that building when they left.

[User] I don't know. I never got into the WPA Records really. But you know when I was in RG64 I kept finding references to it. But you know it’s probably been 43 years since I went through RG 64, so. Maybe you should have done this 25 years ago [Laughing]. Anyway, the issue came up from time to time in the records after that. And I think the original setup of the Records Centers long before my time in the 50’s, I think the original people in the Records Centers were archive oriented in some ways than the later ones. For example the first Records Center head in San Francisco was Philip Brooks who had been in the Archives from the beginning and then after he left San Francisco he went to Independence to be the Truman Library head. And his father got a Congressman, he’d been his father’s secretary when his father was a Congressman.

[Assistant] So what you’re saying is the Federal Records Centers had a basis in archival studies.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The one thing that I didn’t talk about and I don’t know a whole lot about, the WPA Historical Records Survey had its offices in the National Archives Building during the Depression. And so the people that were running the Archives in 1939 to the beginning of the war period were probably pretty familiar with what records were scattered around the country that ought to be kept permanently either in the National Archives or somewhere else.

[Assistant] So I’m assuming that those WPA Records stayed in that building when they left.

[User] I don't know. I never got into the WPA Records really. But you know when I was in RG64 I kept finding references to it. But you know it’s probably been 43 years since I went through RG 64, so. Maybe you should have done this 25 years ago [Laughing]. Anyway, the issue came up from time to time in the records after that. And I think the original setup of the Records Centers long before my time in the 50’s, I think the original people in the Records Centers were archive oriented in some ways than the later ones. For example the first Records Center head in San Francisco was Philip Brooks who had been in the Archives from the beginning and then after he left San Francisco he went to Independence to be the Truman Library head. And his father got a Congressman, he’d been his father’s secretary when his father was a Congressman.

[Assistant] So what you’re saying is the Federal Records Centers had a basis in archival studies.

[User] Some of them at least. Well but the whole Records Management Program was that way because the Records Management Program as it really got started was Herb Angel in charge and Ed Aldridge was his Deputy. Both of them had worked for the Archives before World War II and both of them were involved in the Navy Records Program during the war. And Grover and Bahmer were involved in the Army Records Program during the war. Sherrod East, who was my Assistant Archivist when I was in Military Archives, had been one of the equivalents of the Museum on the records side. You know, I went around trying to find the records at the end of the war.

[Assistant] So they’re all based in archival—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of them at least. Well but the whole Records Management Program was that way because the Records Management Program as it really got started was Herb Angel in charge and Ed Aldridge was his Deputy. Both of them had worked for the Archives before World War II and both of them were involved in the Navy Records Program during the war. And Grover and Bahmer were involved in the Army Records Program during the war. Sherrod East, who was my Assistant Archivist when I was in Military Archives, had been one of the equivalents of the Museum on the records side. You know, I went around trying to find the records at the end of the war.

[Assistant] So they’re all based in archival—

[User] [Interposing] Yeah, and he had worked at the Archives before the war. So the Military Records Management Programs during the war were pretty much founded and run by people from the National Archives many of whom came back to the National Archives after the war. But there was Brooks or somebody drafted a bill in the mid 40’s that was very similar to what became the Federal Records Act of 1950. That’s a different conversation though I guess. Getting back to the regions. The kinds of people that were running the Records Management Program at the beginning had a foundation in the Archives and an understanding of you know that they’re permanent records in the Archives. You know? Now that never got translated into an organization or any formal accessioning or anything until I did the study in ‘68 and ‘69. There was an understanding that there were probably what should be archives in the Records Centers all along.

[Assistant] And that was a basic understanding. You know I’m sure that there were those that disagreed with that.

[User] Yeah, but that’s pretty much during the time period before my time so, you know… I don't know.

[Assistant] When the regions were created and ‘69 was upon us and what was the decision of each of the regional facilities. Why in Boston or why in Fort Worth or why in Atlanta?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but that’s pretty much during the time period before my time so, you know… I don't know.

[Assistant] When the regions were created and ‘69 was upon us and what was the decision of each of the regional facilities. Why in Boston or why in Fort Worth or why in Atlanta?

[User] Well, the plan was to put one in each Records Center. Or each of the regular Regional Federal Records Centers. Not St. Louis but not Suitland but Suitland already had an Archives Branch. But one in each Regional Records Center and Dan Goggin was going to be the Coordinator in the Central Office and these people were going to be Branch Chiefs within the Records Centers so there would be an Accession and Disposal Branch Chief in the Records Center and a Reference Branch Chief and an Archives Branch Chief in each Records Center. And at the time they worked for the Center Director who worked for the Regional Commissioner who worked for the Regional Administrator. They were supposed to get technical advice or supervision from Dan Goggin who was the first Regional Archives Coordinator who went onto something else and was replaced by Charles South but the time I became responsible for it again in 1974.

[Assistant] But was there a Record Management present in all of these regional facilities?

[User] Each region had a Records Management Division. Only in a couple of cases were they located in the same building as the Records Center. In San Francisco, for example, there was a Regional Commissioner, downtown San Francisco; and a Records Management Division that sat in the same suite of offices; but the Records Center in San Rio was physically separate. And that was the same situation in almost all the regions. I think Seattle may have had the Records Management Division in the Records Center at one time.

[Assistant] And did Records Management work with Archives? And vice versa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the plan was to put one in each Records Center. Or each of the regular Regional Federal Records Centers. Not St. Louis but not Suitland but Suitland already had an Archives Branch. But one in each Regional Records Center and Dan Goggin was going to be the Coordinator in the Central Office and these people were going to be Branch Chiefs within the Records Centers so there would be an Accession and Disposal Branch Chief in the Records Center and a Reference Branch Chief and an Archives Branch Chief in each Records Center. And at the time they worked for the Center Director who worked for the Regional Commissioner who worked for the Regional Administrator. They were supposed to get technical advice or supervision from Dan Goggin who was the first Regional Archives Coordinator who went onto something else and was replaced by Charles South but the time I became responsible for it again in 1974.

[Assistant] But was there a Record Management present in all of these regional facilities?

[User] Each region had a Records Management Division. Only in a couple of cases were they located in the same building as the Records Center. In San Francisco, for example, there was a Regional Commissioner, downtown San Francisco; and a Records Management Division that sat in the same suite of offices; but the Records Center in San Rio was physically separate. And that was the same situation in almost all the regions. I think Seattle may have had the Records Management Division in the Records Center at one time.

[Assistant] And did Records Management work with Archives? And vice versa?

[User] Generally no.

[Assistant] Okay. Because it would seem a natural fit to work with one another to secure records into the Archives.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Each region had a Records Management Division. Only in a couple of cases were they located in the same building as the Records Center. In San Francisco, for example, there was a Regional Commissioner, downtown San Francisco; and a Records Management Division that sat in the same suite of offices; but the Records Center in San Rio was physically separate. And that was the same situation in almost all the regions. I think Seattle may have had the Records Management Division in the Records Center at one time.

[Assistant] And did Records Management work with Archives? And vice versa?

[User] Generally no.

[Assistant] Okay. Because it would seem a natural fit to work with one another to secure records into the Archives.

[User] The Records Management Divisions basically were going and encouraging… well that’s hard to say. The only direct contact I had with Regional Records Management people was the 1979-80 period when all they were doing was management consulting work in effect. And not much of the kind of training they had done previously.

[Assistant] Do you think that there was any animosity between the Archives moving in in ‘69 and the Federal Records Centers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Generally no.

[Assistant] Okay. Because it would seem a natural fit to work with one another to secure records into the Archives.

[User] The Records Management Divisions basically were going and encouraging… well that’s hard to say. The only direct contact I had with Regional Records Management people was the 1979-80 period when all they were doing was management consulting work in effect. And not much of the kind of training they had done previously.

[Assistant] Do you think that there was any animosity between the Archives moving in in ‘69 and the Federal Records Centers?

[User] [Thoughtful pause]. I need to think about that. Yeah, that was during a period when I had contact with the Regional Commissioners more than the Center Directors. Because one of the things I did in that time period from ‘68 to ‘74 was whenever they’d have a meeting of the Regional Commissioners, you know when the Archives would get the Regional Commissioners together for a meeting, I would be the sort of the staff secretary. And so I dealt with the Regional Commissioners but I didn’t really deal with the Center Directors.

[Assistant] Okay. Where were the differences between a Center Director, that would be the Federal Records Center Director, and what would be considered a Regional Administrator types for the regions?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Records Management Divisions basically were going and encouraging… well that’s hard to say. The only direct contact I had with Regional Records Management people was the 1979-80 period when all they were doing was management consulting work in effect. And not much of the kind of training they had done previously.

[Assistant] Do you think that there was any animosity between the Archives moving in in ‘69 and the Federal Records Centers?

[User] [Thoughtful pause]. I need to think about that. Yeah, that was during a period when I had contact with the Regional Commissioners more than the Center Directors. Because one of the things I did in that time period from ‘68 to ‘74 was whenever they’d have a meeting of the Regional Commissioners, you know when the Archives would get the Regional Commissioners together for a meeting, I would be the sort of the staff secretary. And so I dealt with the Regional Commissioners but I didn’t really deal with the Center Directors.

[Assistant] Okay. Where were the differences between a Center Director, that would be the Federal Records Center Director, and what would be considered a Regional Administrator types for the regions?

[User] There was a NARS Regional Commissioner. And then there was a Records Management Division and a Federal Records Center. And in most cases there wasn’t a whole lot of contact, I don’t think, between the Records Management Divisions and the Records Centers but I couldn’t swear to that.

[Assistant] I know in one of the interviews I had done in the interview I had done with Jim Owens he said that he didn’t have contact with the Record Management staff and there were three individuals, and they were located within Boston per se so kind of—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [Thoughtful pause]. I need to think about that. Yeah, that was during a period when I had contact with the Regional Commissioners more than the Center Directors. Because one of the things I did in that time period from ‘68 to ‘74 was whenever they’d have a meeting of the Regional Commissioners, you know when the Archives would get the Regional Commissioners together for a meeting, I would be the sort of the staff secretary. And so I dealt with the Regional Commissioners but I didn’t really deal with the Center Directors.

[Assistant] Okay. Where were the differences between a Center Director, that would be the Federal Records Center Director, and what would be considered a Regional Administrator types for the regions?

[User] There was a NARS Regional Commissioner. And then there was a Records Management Division and a Federal Records Center. And in most cases there wasn’t a whole lot of contact, I don’t think, between the Records Management Divisions and the Records Centers but I couldn’t swear to that.

[Assistant] I know in one of the interviews I had done in the interview I had done with Jim Owens he said that he didn’t have contact with the Record Management staff and there were three individuals, and they were located within Boston per se so kind of—

[User] [Interposing] Well Jim would know better how that worked on a day to day basis than I would. And you ought to find, if you can track down some of his colleagues, it would be interesting to see what they told you. Have you talked to any of the other former Regional Archives people?

[Assistant] No, they were recently identified with the photographs that Jim had given me and your input and some other individuals in the National Archives. I’ve identified some of them. Some of them I know I’m going—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So Sue Karren I think is the last Regional Archives person I had physical contact with and that was probably a dozen years ago. I was in Seattle visiting a cousin who was doing genealogical research and was afraid to go to the Archives’'cause she didn’t know what to do so I called up Sue and took her over and introduced her and gave her a tour.

[Assistant] [Chuckling].

[User] But that’s the last Regional Archive facility I was in and like I said it’s probably been a dozen years. Except I was in St. Louis last year but…

[Assistant] [Interposing] And Alaska wasn't in Archives back then?

[User] No. Alaska 1990.

[Assistant] 1990. Okay. Okay. Is there anything you’d like to mention, John, before about the Regional Archives, I can’t think of anything else.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But that’s the last Regional Archive facility I was in and like I said it’s probably been a dozen years. Except I was in St. Louis last year but…

[Assistant] [Interposing] And Alaska wasn't in Archives back then?

[User] No. Alaska 1990.

[Assistant] 1990. Okay. Okay. Is there anything you’d like to mention, John, before about the Regional Archives, I can’t think of anything else.

[User] Well I’ve got a lot more to say about it but let’s do that when we get to the second round in the Regional Archive before the ‘92 period.

[Assistant] Okay. We’ll pick that up in the spring of 1982.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Alaska 1990.

[Assistant] 1990. Okay. Okay. Is there anything you’d like to mention, John, before about the Regional Archives, I can’t think of anything else.

[User] Well I’ve got a lot more to say about it but let’s do that when we get to the second round in the Regional Archive before the ‘92 period.

[Assistant] Okay. We’ll pick that up in the spring of 1982.

[User] Now let me look at a couple of things and see if there’s… there were a couple of things I thought of but I didn’t write down.

[Assistant] Well we can revisit that too with our next interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well I’ve got a lot more to say about it but let’s do that when we get to the second round in the Regional Archive before the ‘92 period.

[Assistant] Okay. We’ll pick that up in the spring of 1982.

[User] Now let me look at a couple of things and see if there’s… there were a couple of things I thought of but I didn’t write down.

[Assistant] Well we can revisit that too with our next interview.

[User] Hmm. I'm trying to think of-do you have a quick list of who you’re talking to or shouldn’t I ask you that or?

[Assistant] I can send that to you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now let me look at a couple of things and see if there’s… there were a couple of things I thought of but I didn’t write down.

[Assistant] Well we can revisit that too with our next interview.

[User] Hmm. I'm trying to think of-do you have a quick list of who you’re talking to or shouldn’t I ask you that or?

[Assistant] I can send that to you.

[User] See if anybody occurs to me that you don’t have.

[Assistant] Okay. I’ll get that list out to you, a list of both the people that we do have and the ones that I have on my wish list.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. I'm trying to think of-do you have a quick list of who you’re talking to or shouldn’t I ask you that or?

[Assistant] I can send that to you.

[User] See if anybody occurs to me that you don’t have.

[Assistant] Okay. I’ll get that list out to you, a list of both the people that we do have and the ones that I have on my wish list.

[User] Okay, I was surprised to see the thing you sent me from Judy Koucky. I never had a whole lot of contact with her.

[Assistant] There’s a lot of people actually in the National Archives that speak very highly of you. My colleague Marvin Kabakoff retired recently and I had done an oral history for him and he’d been around since I think somewhere in the 1970’s and Marvin said that he had limited dealings with you and knew a lot about you and it was all very positive.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] See if anybody occurs to me that you don’t have.

[Assistant] Okay. I’ll get that list out to you, a list of both the people that we do have and the ones that I have on my wish list.

[User] Okay, I was surprised to see the thing you sent me from Judy Koucky. I never had a whole lot of contact with her.

[Assistant] There’s a lot of people actually in the National Archives that speak very highly of you. My colleague Marvin Kabakoff retired recently and I had done an oral history for him and he’d been around since I think somewhere in the 1970’s and Marvin said that he had limited dealings with you and knew a lot about you and it was all very positive.

[User] Well… I wish the management thought as kindly of me as some of the people did. Well I had a good relationship with limited time but good relationship with Bahmer when he was Archivist and with Bert Rhoads when he was Archivist. I don’t think O’Neill wanted to get rid of me. Bob Warner was very cool to me but warmed up at the end. Frank Burke—he was Acting for a while and then on opposite sides of numerous issues over the years but he treated me very well when he was Acting Archivist. Even though we’d been opposed to each other on a lot of things. Trudy and I were never friends.

[Assistant] Right. It seems like she had a different idea of the Regional Archives than you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, I was surprised to see the thing you sent me from Judy Koucky. I never had a whole lot of contact with her.

[Assistant] There’s a lot of people actually in the National Archives that speak very highly of you. My colleague Marvin Kabakoff retired recently and I had done an oral history for him and he’d been around since I think somewhere in the 1970’s and Marvin said that he had limited dealings with you and knew a lot about you and it was all very positive.

[User] Well… I wish the management thought as kindly of me as some of the people did. Well I had a good relationship with limited time but good relationship with Bahmer when he was Archivist and with Bert Rhoads when he was Archivist. I don’t think O’Neill wanted to get rid of me. Bob Warner was very cool to me but warmed up at the end. Frank Burke—he was Acting for a while and then on opposite sides of numerous issues over the years but he treated me very well when he was Acting Archivist. Even though we’d been opposed to each other on a lot of things. Trudy and I were never friends.

[Assistant] Right. It seems like she had a different idea of the Regional Archives than you did.

[User] Ah. I think Trudy and the Carlins and other people had a different idea. Right. If you can’t find the Manifesto then I’ll go into my philosophy on the Regional Archives at length but not until we do the second round.

[Assistant] Okay. I know Meg was on vacation and she said she’s still looking for it but she didn’t know if she could find it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well… I wish the management thought as kindly of me as some of the people did. Well I had a good relationship with limited time but good relationship with Bahmer when he was Archivist and with Bert Rhoads when he was Archivist. I don’t think O’Neill wanted to get rid of me. Bob Warner was very cool to me but warmed up at the end. Frank Burke—he was Acting for a while and then on opposite sides of numerous issues over the years but he treated me very well when he was Acting Archivist. Even though we’d been opposed to each other on a lot of things. Trudy and I were never friends.

[Assistant] Right. It seems like she had a different idea of the Regional Archives than you did.

[User] Ah. I think Trudy and the Carlins and other people had a different idea. Right. If you can’t find the Manifesto then I’ll go into my philosophy on the Regional Archives at length but not until we do the second round.

[Assistant] Okay. I know Meg was on vacation and she said she’s still looking for it but she didn’t know if she could find it.

[User] Well, if she doesn't have it, Sue might. I don’t know.

[Assistant] Okay. I'll reach out to Sue again and see. By the way, I won't be because I won't be in DC but John Carlin and his wife will be coming in for an interview on July 13 at Archives I and I believe Jessie is going to be interviewing.