[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And so you were both doing the same thing, but in different schools?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you room together?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Talk. So before we talk about what went on in the classroom, let's talk about how you lived.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you room together?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Talk. So before we talk about what went on in the classroom, let's talk about how you lived.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] What? Describe the house or apartment or where did you live?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Talk. So before we talk about what went on in the classroom, let's talk about how you lived.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] What? Describe the house or apartment or where did you live?

[User] Well, we, we had a, rented a house. And the, uh, the Peace Corps volunteers. You know, it had been like several years’ worth of Peace Corps volunteers in Isfahan.

[Assistant] Oh, there had been. So there was a Peace Corps house identified?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] What? Describe the house or apartment or where did you live?

[User] Well, we, we had a, rented a house. And the, uh, the Peace Corps volunteers. You know, it had been like several years’ worth of Peace Corps volunteers in Isfahan.

[Assistant] Oh, there had been. So there was a Peace Corps house identified?

[User] No, no, there wasn't a Peace Corps house. But there was one person in particular that was Iranian that was very friendly towards Peace Corps volunteers. And he helped us to find this house. The woman really didn't want to rent it to us because we weren't Muslim, but he kind of persuaded her to do that. It was an older house. It had a, well, I guess it's typical for really for houses in Iran, but the house is built around a central courtyard and it has the big door, you know, it's kind of like you have a walled house.

[Assistant] And the wall, the door opening in that wall to enter the compound?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, there wasn't a Peace Corps house. But there was one person in particular that was Iranian that was very friendly towards Peace Corps volunteers. And he helped us to find this house. The woman really didn't want to rent it to us because we weren't Muslim, but he kind of persuaded her to do that. It was an older house. It had a, well, I guess it's typical for really for houses in Iran, but the house is built around a central courtyard and it has the big door, you know, it's kind of like you have a walled house.

[Assistant] And the wall, the door opening in that wall to enter the compound?

[User] The door is opening to the street.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And once you get through that, then you, I think there were no more doors to get through the main way of the, of the home.

[Assistant] And then rooms opened off, onto a courtyard.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Onto the courtyard.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And so.

[User] But it was.

[Assistant] Did the woman?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And so.

[User] But it was.

[Assistant] Did the woman?

[User] It wasn't glamorous or anything like that.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah. And then the woman who owned the house also lived there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it was.

[Assistant] Did the woman?

[User] It wasn't glamorous or anything like that.

[Assistant] Okay, yeah. And then the woman who owned the house also lived there?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No. So it was just you and your Peace Corps mate. What was his name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No. So it was just you and your Peace Corps mate. What was his name?

[User] John Swanson.

[Assistant] John?

[User] John Swanson.

[Assistant] Swanson. Okay. So it was just you and John in this house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] John Swanson.

[Assistant] John?

[User] John Swanson.

[Assistant] Swanson. Okay. So it was just you and John in this house?

[User] Well, yes and no. I mean, the house had maybe like four bedrooms at least, and we were like in this central location. And a number of volunteers were in smaller towns or villages around the area, so frequently, and we were happy, you know, to have these people drop in and.

[Assistant] Yours was the place where they'd crash.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] John Swanson.

[Assistant] Swanson. Okay. So it was just you and John in this house?

[User] Well, yes and no. I mean, the house had maybe like four bedrooms at least, and we were like in this central location. And a number of volunteers were in smaller towns or villages around the area, so frequently, and we were happy, you know, to have these people drop in and.

[Assistant] Yours was the place where they'd crash.

[User] Yeah. So that was good. So we had, we had visitors a lot of times.

[Assistant] I can see the parties right now. And what? So you and John each had your own room.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes and no. I mean, the house had maybe like four bedrooms at least, and we were like in this central location. And a number of volunteers were in smaller towns or villages around the area, so frequently, and we were happy, you know, to have these people drop in and.

[Assistant] Yours was the place where they'd crash.

[User] Yeah. So that was good. So we had, we had visitors a lot of times.

[Assistant] I can see the parties right now. And what? So you and John each had your own room.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And then was there a kitchen there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So that was good. So we had, we had visitors a lot of times.

[Assistant] I can see the parties right now. And what? So you and John each had your own room.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And then was there a kitchen there?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In the house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] In the house.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] Who cooked?

[User] I think we took turns. The Peace Corps had given us this cookbook that was prepared by Peace Corps volunteers in Iran. So they kind of knew what worked, you know, and simple stuff. So we used a lot of those recipes.

[Assistant] What a unique thing. Do you still have it? Do you still have that cookbook?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was.

[Assistant] Who cooked?

[User] I think we took turns. The Peace Corps had given us this cookbook that was prepared by Peace Corps volunteers in Iran. So they kind of knew what worked, you know, and simple stuff. So we used a lot of those recipes.

[Assistant] What a unique thing. Do you still have it? Do you still have that cookbook?

[User] Maybe. Somewhere in a box in my garage maybe. I don't know.

[Assistant] It sounds intriguing. So you and John would cook for yourselves. You took turns cooking and that. And where would you shop for food?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we took turns. The Peace Corps had given us this cookbook that was prepared by Peace Corps volunteers in Iran. So they kind of knew what worked, you know, and simple stuff. So we used a lot of those recipes.

[Assistant] What a unique thing. Do you still have it? Do you still have that cookbook?

[User] Maybe. Somewhere in a box in my garage maybe. I don't know.

[Assistant] It sounds intriguing. So you and John would cook for yourselves. You took turns cooking and that. And where would you shop for food?

[User] Um, well, let's see. There was the, right outside of our house down a couple was the store where they had fresh yogurt, a small store. And he was a friendly guy. So we would buy yogurt and eggs from him. And for other stuff, I think we had to go like about a half mile away to a Armenian store, a grocery store. They would have kind of more Western shopping sort of stuff. But I don't remember all the details. I think we would buy meat from a, well, you know, one of these butcher places local to our house. And definitely you cooked that a lot. You know, you don't want to eat that raw.

[Assistant] Oh, right, right. Yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Maybe. Somewhere in a box in my garage maybe. I don't know.

[Assistant] It sounds intriguing. So you and John would cook for yourselves. You took turns cooking and that. And where would you shop for food?

[User] Um, well, let's see. There was the, right outside of our house down a couple was the store where they had fresh yogurt, a small store. And he was a friendly guy. So we would buy yogurt and eggs from him. And for other stuff, I think we had to go like about a half mile away to a Armenian store, a grocery store. They would have kind of more Western shopping sort of stuff. But I don't remember all the details. I think we would buy meat from a, well, you know, one of these butcher places local to our house. And definitely you cooked that a lot. You know, you don't want to eat that raw.

[Assistant] Oh, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

[User] It's been outside and all that stuff. But we survived somehow, you know.

[Assistant] What did you cook on? You had a stove of some sort?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's been outside and all that stuff. But we survived somehow, you know.

[Assistant] What did you cook on? You had a stove of some sort?

[User] What did we have? I think we had a little stove, a little gas stove. And it worked on those propane cylinders.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So we would have. I think that's how it was. I think we had one of those in the kitchen.

[Assistant] And did you have refrigeration? Oh, you did. So you had electricity. Was it kerosene, the refrigerator, or electric?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What did we have? I think we had a little stove, a little gas stove. And it worked on those propane cylinders.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] So we would have. I think that's how it was. I think we had one of those in the kitchen.

[Assistant] And did you have refrigeration? Oh, you did. So you had electricity. Was it kerosene, the refrigerator, or electric?

[User] No, we had electricity there. This is the second biggest city.

[Assistant] That's right. Oh, okay. So you had electric lights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we would have. I think that's how it was. I think we had one of those in the kitchen.

[Assistant] And did you have refrigeration? Oh, you did. So you had electricity. Was it kerosene, the refrigerator, or electric?

[User] No, we had electricity there. This is the second biggest city.

[Assistant] That's right. Oh, okay. So you had electric lights?

[User] Yeah. First class.

[Assistant] No kidding. And how about running water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we had electricity there. This is the second biggest city.

[Assistant] That's right. Oh, okay. So you had electric lights?

[User] Yeah. First class.

[Assistant] No kidding. And how about running water?

[User] Yes, we had that too.

[Assistant] So you had flush toilets right there in the house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. First class.

[Assistant] No kidding. And how about running water?

[User] Yes, we had that too.

[Assistant] So you had flush toilets right there in the house?

[User] Well, you know, the kind you squat on. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, but still.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we had that too.

[Assistant] So you had flush toilets right there in the house?

[User] Well, you know, the kind you squat on. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, but still.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You didn't have to go outside.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, you know, the kind you squat on. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, but still.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You didn't have to go outside.

[User] No. Sounds pretty good, huh?

[Assistant] [inaudible] Well, wow. If you had electricity, did you have radios? Some contact with the outside world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah.

[Assistant] You didn't have to go outside.

[User] No. Sounds pretty good, huh?

[Assistant] [inaudible] Well, wow. If you had electricity, did you have radios? Some contact with the outside world?

[User] Um, I don't remember listening to a radio so much. I mean, there wasn't any. Were there Western stations? I don't think there were. Our music was more like cassettes.

[Assistant] Oh yes, sure, yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Sounds pretty good, huh?

[Assistant] [inaudible] Well, wow. If you had electricity, did you have radios? Some contact with the outside world?

[User] Um, I don't remember listening to a radio so much. I mean, there wasn't any. Were there Western stations? I don't think there were. Our music was more like cassettes.

[Assistant] Oh yes, sure, yes.

[User] So we had cassette players.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had brought your music from home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we had cassette players.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had brought your music from home?

[User] Well, yeah, we could buy it also. We could buy cassettes.

[Assistant] Early seventies.

[User] Something like that. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds pretty, like a pretty good. Did it seem like an adequate living arrangement too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yeah, we could buy it also. We could buy cassettes.

[Assistant] Early seventies.

[User] Something like that. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds pretty, like a pretty good. Did it seem like an adequate living arrangement too?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. And when you walked out the door. When you stepped out the door, when you opened that door in the wall and stepped out onto the street, um, what did you see? What was going on in the street? What was the neighborhood like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Something like that. Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Well, that sounds pretty, like a pretty good. Did it seem like an adequate living arrangement too?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. And when you walked out the door. When you stepped out the door, when you opened that door in the wall and stepped out onto the street, um, what did you see? What was going on in the street? What was the neighborhood like?

[User] Well, it was a side street off of a main street. So there were people coming and going, you know, some people riding bicycles. And that was our way of getting around.

[Assistant] You had a bicycle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. And when you walked out the door. When you stepped out the door, when you opened that door in the wall and stepped out onto the street, um, what did you see? What was going on in the street? What was the neighborhood like?

[User] Well, it was a side street off of a main street. So there were people coming and going, you know, some people riding bicycles. And that was our way of getting around.

[Assistant] You had a bicycle?

[User] We each had a bicycle.

[Assistant] Peace Corps provided the bike for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a side street off of a main street. So there were people coming and going, you know, some people riding bicycles. And that was our way of getting around.

[Assistant] You had a bicycle?

[User] We each had a bicycle.

[Assistant] Peace Corps provided the bike for you?

[User] No.

[Assistant] You had to buy it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You had to buy it?

[User] Well, they gave us money to.

[Assistant] I see.

[User] Yeah. So there'd be that, you know, people walking with groceries and kids and, you know, just people walking.

[Assistant] Yeah. Not so many cars.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they gave us money to.

[Assistant] I see.

[User] Yeah. So there'd be that, you know, people walking with groceries and kids and, you know, just people walking.

[Assistant] Yeah. Not so many cars.

[User] Not so many cars. Some cars. I mean, it's not like Iran had a scarcity of cars, but, you know, these kind of back alleys. It wasn't like people would be driving through there unless they live there.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you and John have different schools. How far away was your school from where you lived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So there'd be that, you know, people walking with groceries and kids and, you know, just people walking.

[Assistant] Yeah. Not so many cars.

[User] Not so many cars. Some cars. I mean, it's not like Iran had a scarcity of cars, but, you know, these kind of back alleys. It wasn't like people would be driving through there unless they live there.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you and John have different schools. How far away was your school from where you lived?

[User] Like a ten minute bike ride, something like that.

[Assistant] Oh, that's very doable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not so many cars. Some cars. I mean, it's not like Iran had a scarcity of cars, but, you know, these kind of back alleys. It wasn't like people would be driving through there unless they live there.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you and John have different schools. How far away was your school from where you lived?

[User] Like a ten minute bike ride, something like that.

[Assistant] Oh, that's very doable.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Was it dangerous riding the bike in traffic and so forth?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Was it dangerous riding the bike in traffic and so forth?

[User] Well, somewhat. I don't ever recall getting hit, but I just remember it wasn't like America, you know, where we kind of. Drivers are supposed to look out for bicycles. You had to be careful that people were not going to do something.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I guess the most dangerous thing was in the winter when it was icy that I did fall off my bike at least once in that situation.

[Assistant] Right in traffic?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, somewhat. I don't ever recall getting hit, but I just remember it wasn't like America, you know, where we kind of. Drivers are supposed to look out for bicycles. You had to be careful that people were not going to do something.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I guess the most dangerous thing was in the winter when it was icy that I did fall off my bike at least once in that situation.

[Assistant] Right in traffic?

[User] No, not in traffic. Just falling off and getting bruised.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, yeah, you talked about getting there. It was pretty hot in the summer, but winter comes and there's ice. Snow also?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess the most dangerous thing was in the winter when it was icy that I did fall off my bike at least once in that situation.

[Assistant] Right in traffic?

[User] No, not in traffic. Just falling off and getting bruised.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, yeah, you talked about getting there. It was pretty hot in the summer, but winter comes and there's ice. Snow also?

[User] Snow, a little. It didn't snow a lot there, but it did some. I mean, enough to leave build ups on the roads and they didn't really do like ice melting and, you know, snow plows and stuff. I think it was people shoveling as I recall.

[Assistant] Yeah. Or tromping through it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, not in traffic. Just falling off and getting bruised.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, yeah, you talked about getting there. It was pretty hot in the summer, but winter comes and there's ice. Snow also?

[User] Snow, a little. It didn't snow a lot there, but it did some. I mean, enough to leave build ups on the roads and they didn't really do like ice melting and, you know, snow plows and stuff. I think it was people shoveling as I recall.

[Assistant] Yeah. Or tromping through it.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you get to your school. Let's walk in the door of the school. The school's a high school, a vocational school, at the secondary level. How old are the students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Snow, a little. It didn't snow a lot there, but it did some. I mean, enough to leave build ups on the roads and they didn't really do like ice melting and, you know, snow plows and stuff. I think it was people shoveling as I recall.

[Assistant] Yeah. Or tromping through it.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you get to your school. Let's walk in the door of the school. The school's a high school, a vocational school, at the secondary level. How old are the students?

[User] Well, I guess like 15 or something like that?

[Assistant] Mm hmm. You didn't have people in their twenties there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I guess like 15 or something like that?

[Assistant] Mm hmm. You didn't have people in their twenties there?

[User] I don't remember that, no.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think they're pretty much all young.

[Assistant] Same high school ages here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember that, no.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I think they're pretty much all young.

[Assistant] Same high school ages here.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Okay. And so what was that like when you first got to the school? If you arrived there at the end of, you arrived in Isfahan at the end of the summer, so does their school year begin as ours does in September?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think they're pretty much all young.

[Assistant] Same high school ages here.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Okay. And so what was that like when you first got to the school? If you arrived there at the end of, you arrived in Isfahan at the end of the summer, so does their school year begin as ours does in September?

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Okay, so you're there, and somebody must have given you a list of classes and?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Okay, so you're there, and somebody must have given you a list of classes and?

[User] Well, the way it was, they did have classrooms and they had like workshops and I was assigned to be in a workshop. It was, it was challenging for me to be able to contribute something because the school had been there for a while and it had teachers for a while already. And to have some youngster come in and, you know, try to suggest how to do things didn't fly too well.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I, my understanding is that the central government, you know, kind of assigned volunteers to schools.

[Assistant] As opposed to the school requesting a teacher with a particular skill?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the way it was, they did have classrooms and they had like workshops and I was assigned to be in a workshop. It was, it was challenging for me to be able to contribute something because the school had been there for a while and it had teachers for a while already. And to have some youngster come in and, you know, try to suggest how to do things didn't fly too well.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I, my understanding is that the central government, you know, kind of assigned volunteers to schools.

[Assistant] As opposed to the school requesting a teacher with a particular skill?

[User] That's right. That's right.

[Assistant] Hmm, that's awkward, isn't it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. That's right.

[Assistant] Hmm, that's awkward, isn't it?

[User] So it is. And, you know, I certainly got the feeling that they, the other teachers. We had two or three, maybe two. Sorry. There were two, two teachers in this workshop that had been there for a while.

[Assistant] Iranian teachers?

[User] Iranian teachers, yeah.

[Assistant] Had they had a Peace Corps volunteer on staff before?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it is. And, you know, I certainly got the feeling that they, the other teachers. We had two or three, maybe two. Sorry. There were two, two teachers in this workshop that had been there for a while.

[Assistant] Iranian teachers?

[User] Iranian teachers, yeah.

[Assistant] Had they had a Peace Corps volunteer on staff before?

[User] I don't think the school did. No.

[Assistant] And so were you given your own class to teach?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Iranian teachers, yeah.

[Assistant] Had they had a Peace Corps volunteer on staff before?

[User] I don't think the school did. No.

[Assistant] And so were you given your own class to teach?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Or were you sort of just there helping out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would have been extremely difficult for me to do that really. The, the, you know, the place that I found that I could fit in ironically was, it was in the auto mechanic shop, which is not what I was sent to do. But the person in that shop had acquired like engine tuning equipment, some other equipment from, from Europe, from England. And he wanted help to translate the instruction manual.

[Assistant] Ah, yes.

[User] And so I spent at least half my time there with that, the person that helped rent the house, you know, because I know English and he knows my English is good and his Persian is good. So together we would translate pages out of this manual.

[Assistant] Manual. Yeah.

[User] And the instructor very much appreciated that.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Good. Yeah. So now they're glad you're there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And the instructor very much appreciated that.

[Assistant] Oh, good. Good. Yeah. So now they're glad you're there.

[User] Well, he was anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it sounds like the person that you're mainly talking to and working with is the guy who was a friend of the Peace Corps, the same one who helped to find the house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, he was anyway.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it sounds like the person that you're mainly talking to and working with is the guy who was a friend of the Peace Corps, the same one who helped to find the house.

[User] Yeah, that's, that's true.

[Assistant] He had some English or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So it sounds like the person that you're mainly talking to and working with is the guy who was a friend of the Peace Corps, the same one who helped to find the house.

[User] Yeah, that's, that's true.

[Assistant] He had some English or?

[User] His English was, was pretty good. Yeah.

[Assistant] But you were using, you were also using your Farsi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's, that's true.

[Assistant] He had some English or?

[User] His English was, was pretty good. Yeah.

[Assistant] But you were using, you were also using your Farsi?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] With other people on the staff?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His English was, was pretty good. Yeah.

[Assistant] But you were using, you were also using your Farsi?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] With other people on the staff?

[User] Yeah. And just with daily life, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that went on for a while. And then? Eventually you finish translating the manual.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] With other people on the staff?

[User] Yeah. And just with daily life, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that went on for a while. And then? Eventually you finish translating the manual.

[User] Well, I don't remember the sequence of stuff, but it seemed like I was always working with him some way or another. And in the electrical shop, I was able to repair some experiments and get some equipment going. And, but I felt it wasn't, it didn't make so much difference really. You know, I tried. But the, uh, the reality is that. So engineers are kind of respected in Iran. But here in the U.S., you know, if you go to UC Berkeley and get an engineering degree, you know, to install a circuit for a light fixture is like, where do I start, you know? You know, they don't teach stuff like that.

[Assistant] You had a more highly theoretical technical level.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And just with daily life, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that went on for a while. And then? Eventually you finish translating the manual.

[User] Well, I don't remember the sequence of stuff, but it seemed like I was always working with him some way or another. And in the electrical shop, I was able to repair some experiments and get some equipment going. And, but I felt it wasn't, it didn't make so much difference really. You know, I tried. But the, uh, the reality is that. So engineers are kind of respected in Iran. But here in the U.S., you know, if you go to UC Berkeley and get an engineering degree, you know, to install a circuit for a light fixture is like, where do I start, you know? You know, they don't teach stuff like that.

[Assistant] You had a more highly theoretical technical level.

[User] You know, the higher areas. And, you know, ideally they would have had like licensed electricians go over there and teach this stuff. But anyway, you know, the Peace Corps does the best they can with the people that they get, right? So that's the way it worked.

[Assistant] So they get an intellectual engineer from Berkeley trying to teach the basic electrical mechanics.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't remember the sequence of stuff, but it seemed like I was always working with him some way or another. And in the electrical shop, I was able to repair some experiments and get some equipment going. And, but I felt it wasn't, it didn't make so much difference really. You know, I tried. But the, uh, the reality is that. So engineers are kind of respected in Iran. But here in the U.S., you know, if you go to UC Berkeley and get an engineering degree, you know, to install a circuit for a light fixture is like, where do I start, you know? You know, they don't teach stuff like that.

[Assistant] You had a more highly theoretical technical level.

[User] You know, the higher areas. And, you know, ideally they would have had like licensed electricians go over there and teach this stuff. But anyway, you know, the Peace Corps does the best they can with the people that they get, right? So that's the way it worked.

[Assistant] So they get an intellectual engineer from Berkeley trying to teach the basic electrical mechanics.

[User] Yeah. So it's just, it was a difficult combination.

[Assistant] But you're smiling when you say that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, because for me, you know, it was, the whole thing was an experience, you know, a life experience.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] I don't, I don't regret that. I mean, it was very valuable for that.

[Assistant] For sure.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In that first year that you're there, how was your health holding up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't, I don't regret that. I mean, it was very valuable for that.

[Assistant] For sure.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In that first year that you're there, how was your health holding up?

[User] I don't think I ever had any major problems. I mean, every so often, you know, you had to be really, really careful. And every so often, if you eat some unwashed vegetable or, you know, you just don't pay attention, then you can get pretty sick. And I think that would happen to me every couple of months.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Of course, you had to probably boil your water and filter it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] In that first year that you're there, how was your health holding up?

[User] I don't think I ever had any major problems. I mean, every so often, you know, you had to be really, really careful. And every so often, if you eat some unwashed vegetable or, you know, you just don't pay attention, then you can get pretty sick. And I think that would happen to me every couple of months.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Of course, you had to probably boil your water and filter it.

[User] We had to boil it or put some, you know, stuff in it. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you'd occasionally get sick, but nothing life threatening?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't think I ever had any major problems. I mean, every so often, you know, you had to be really, really careful. And every so often, if you eat some unwashed vegetable or, you know, you just don't pay attention, then you can get pretty sick. And I think that would happen to me every couple of months.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Of course, you had to probably boil your water and filter it.

[User] We had to boil it or put some, you know, stuff in it. Yeah.

[Assistant] So you'd occasionally get sick, but nothing life threatening?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Yeah. Did you have, uh, when there would be a break in the school year for some sort of holiday, um, did you? What did you do? Did you travel or did you have a side little secondary project to work on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, they, they just, you know, we had the summer off, actually. So it was pretty amazing, you know. We still got the Peace Corps salary too.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, um. I, where did I go traveling with? I, there were different occasions, but the most memorable was, was going to this village above the Caspian Sea. And it was really rustic. You know, if you talk about no electricity and running water, this was that, you know, and I went with another Peace Corps volunteer that we were kind of friendly. And he was, I think, working in one of the villages in the area. But this was very fascinating. The people were very welcoming to us and they wanted to even, uh, at one point they were having some celebration for something or another, and they wanted us to sing and dance together.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And it's like, wait a minute, I just, I don't think so, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, their concept of dancing would be very different from yours.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, um. I, where did I go traveling with? I, there were different occasions, but the most memorable was, was going to this village above the Caspian Sea. And it was really rustic. You know, if you talk about no electricity and running water, this was that, you know, and I went with another Peace Corps volunteer that we were kind of friendly. And he was, I think, working in one of the villages in the area. But this was very fascinating. The people were very welcoming to us and they wanted to even, uh, at one point they were having some celebration for something or another, and they wanted us to sing and dance together.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And it's like, wait a minute, I just, I don't think so, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, their concept of dancing would be very different from yours.

[User] I know, but it's like, they're very free, you know, and happy to, you know, and they grew up like that. And it's like, oh, let's have fun, you know? And I guess I just, anyway, I mean, I enjoyed it, but I just wasn't as free to be able to do that sort of thing. Kind of a regret, I guess, you know. But just that's the way it was.

[Assistant] So you are. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it's like, wait a minute, I just, I don't think so, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah, well, their concept of dancing would be very different from yours.

[User] I know, but it's like, they're very free, you know, and happy to, you know, and they grew up like that. And it's like, oh, let's have fun, you know? And I guess I just, anyway, I mean, I enjoyed it, but I just wasn't as free to be able to do that sort of thing. Kind of a regret, I guess, you know. But just that's the way it was.

[Assistant] So you are. Yeah.

[User] But that was, that was a nice experience just to see people kind of enjoying themselves, you know, without all the television and, you know, all the stuff, you know. They just had a good time together. That's kind of for me very amazing, you know, to see that sort of thing.

[Assistant] I'm going to ask you about that, about how that might have affected your life later on. But let's stay in Iran for now.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I know, but it's like, they're very free, you know, and happy to, you know, and they grew up like that. And it's like, oh, let's have fun, you know? And I guess I just, anyway, I mean, I enjoyed it, but I just wasn't as free to be able to do that sort of thing. Kind of a regret, I guess, you know. But just that's the way it was.

[Assistant] So you are. Yeah.

[User] But that was, that was a nice experience just to see people kind of enjoying themselves, you know, without all the television and, you know, all the stuff, you know. They just had a good time together. That's kind of for me very amazing, you know, to see that sort of thing.

[Assistant] I'm going to ask you about that, about how that might have affected your life later on. But let's stay in Iran for now.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So were there any other trips you took?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] So were there any other trips you took?

[User] I guess we just had the one summer in between and then. I forget how the schedule worked exactly. But after that, you know, that was the end of the two years, you know, the one summer between and then another year of teaching. And then the two years was finished.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] So after that, I did kind of take my time and I think I went part ways with another, not a Peace Corps volunteer, but a guy that taught in a, somehow in a Christian school. But you can't really be a Christian school in Iran. I don't remember how that worked, but somehow they. But he and I traveled together through Turkey and Greece, and at some point we went our different ways. I don't remember when that happened, but that was also a new thing for me.

[Assistant] Yes. A unique opportunity for a man who was still in his early twenties.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess we just had the one summer in between and then. I forget how the schedule worked exactly. But after that, you know, that was the end of the two years, you know, the one summer between and then another year of teaching. And then the two years was finished.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] So after that, I did kind of take my time and I think I went part ways with another, not a Peace Corps volunteer, but a guy that taught in a, somehow in a Christian school. But you can't really be a Christian school in Iran. I don't remember how that worked, but somehow they. But he and I traveled together through Turkey and Greece, and at some point we went our different ways. I don't remember when that happened, but that was also a new thing for me.

[Assistant] Yes. A unique opportunity for a man who was still in his early twenties.

[User] Yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] Back in Isfahan when you're teaching, did you have, did anybody from Peace Corps come out to see how you're doing and talk to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So after that, I did kind of take my time and I think I went part ways with another, not a Peace Corps volunteer, but a guy that taught in a, somehow in a Christian school. But you can't really be a Christian school in Iran. I don't remember how that worked, but somehow they. But he and I traveled together through Turkey and Greece, and at some point we went our different ways. I don't remember when that happened, but that was also a new thing for me.

[Assistant] Yes. A unique opportunity for a man who was still in his early twenties.

[User] Yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] Back in Isfahan when you're teaching, did you have, did anybody from Peace Corps come out to see how you're doing and talk to you?

[User] Probably. I don't remember.

[Assistant] So did you have a sense that you had a supervisor who was checking on you, or were you pretty much on your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Probably. I don't remember.

[Assistant] So did you have a sense that you had a supervisor who was checking on you, or were you pretty much on your own?

[User] Oh, we felt connected. I felt connected. And, you know, one of the things we would do anyway was to, uh, to go to Tehran every so often, you know? I don't remember how often, once every month or so, you know, we'd get on the bus and it's like an overnight, unpleasant thing. But anyway, go to Tehran and we could visit the Peace Corps office and talk with people there and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Go to the American embassy and get all kinds of goodies, you know, the shopping there. And there was this interesting hotel that we stayed at. Goats running around in the hotel.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness. In Tehran?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, we felt connected. I felt connected. And, you know, one of the things we would do anyway was to, uh, to go to Tehran every so often, you know? I don't remember how often, once every month or so, you know, we'd get on the bus and it's like an overnight, unpleasant thing. But anyway, go to Tehran and we could visit the Peace Corps office and talk with people there and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Go to the American embassy and get all kinds of goodies, you know, the shopping there. And there was this interesting hotel that we stayed at. Goats running around in the hotel.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness. In Tehran?

[User] In Tehran, yeah.

[Assistant] Suddenly it breaks the image that I had.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Go to the American embassy and get all kinds of goodies, you know, the shopping there. And there was this interesting hotel that we stayed at. Goats running around in the hotel.

[Assistant] Oh my goodness. In Tehran?

[User] In Tehran, yeah.

[Assistant] Suddenly it breaks the image that I had.

[User] Oh, yeah. Well, this was a unique hotel. This was like the, the world traveler backpack person kind of hotel. Yeah.

[Assistant] I love the smile on your face. I wish this were a video recording.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Well, this was a unique hotel. This was like the, the world traveler backpack person kind of hotel. Yeah.

[Assistant] I love the smile on your face. I wish this were a video recording.

[User] Yeah, well, I'm trying to remember the.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The things, you know. But yeah.

[Assistant] You mentioned that, you mentioned a Peace Corps salary. In the sixties, they called it a living allowance, which was very modest. Do you remember about how much did you get and how did you pick it up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, I'm trying to remember the.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] The things, you know. But yeah.

[Assistant] You mentioned that, you mentioned a Peace Corps salary. In the sixties, they called it a living allowance, which was very modest. Do you remember about how much did you get and how did you pick it up?

[User] Uh, I don't remember, but it was really like a lot. I mean, I actually bought a lot of rugs and goodies and stuff there, you know, that, you know, the copperware and stuff like that.

[Assistant] How did you get that home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, I don't remember, but it was really like a lot. I mean, I actually bought a lot of rugs and goodies and stuff there, you know, that, you know, the copperware and stuff like that.

[Assistant] How did you get that home?

[User] Uh, we, the Peace Corps knew people that we could ship it with. But actually, I got some stuff stolen, so it didn't work out all that great. But anyway. In other words, we had enough money to do more than our needs.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Some, a couple of people bought motorcycles. And I don't know if that was really supposed to be, but anyhow, I won't say any names then. It wasn't me. But yeah, just if you lived basically it was fine.

[Assistant] You could save up a few.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, we, the Peace Corps knew people that we could ship it with. But actually, I got some stuff stolen, so it didn't work out all that great. But anyway. In other words, we had enough money to do more than our needs.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Some, a couple of people bought motorcycles. And I don't know if that was really supposed to be, but anyhow, I won't say any names then. It wasn't me. But yeah, just if you lived basically it was fine.

[Assistant] You could save up a few.

[User] Yeah. And they had some money also, a couple thousand dollars ready for us when we finished.

[Assistant] Right. Readjustment loans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some, a couple of people bought motorcycles. And I don't know if that was really supposed to be, but anyhow, I won't say any names then. It wasn't me. But yeah, just if you lived basically it was fine.

[Assistant] You could save up a few.

[User] Yeah. And they had some money also, a couple thousand dollars ready for us when we finished.

[Assistant] Right. Readjustment loans.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Used to call them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And they had some money also, a couple thousand dollars ready for us when we finished.

[Assistant] Right. Readjustment loans.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Used to call them.

[User] It sounds about right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, you've got a family back in California. Your mom and dad and your sister. And you were writing letters and getting letters from them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Used to call them.

[User] It sounds about right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, you've got a family back in California. Your mom and dad and your sister. And you were writing letters and getting letters from them.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So it was that blue air letter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It sounds about right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Meanwhile, you've got a family back in California. Your mom and dad and your sister. And you were writing letters and getting letters from them.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] So it was that blue air letter.

[User] That's what it was. The air grams. Yeah.

[Assistant] Try to cram as much as you could. Yeah. You still have them? Or does your mom have them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I still have some of those tablecloths. Well, anyway, one Christmas I got the idea that I would bring a bunch of these aerograms to one of these shops where they're doing the stamping and said, can you stamp these for me?

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] So I got these really nice designs stamped on the aerograms.

[Assistant] How lovely.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then you sent them off?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I got these really nice designs stamped on the aerograms.

[Assistant] How lovely.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then you sent them off?

[User] Sent them, yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, you're getting letters from your folks. They're writing to you too.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, our kitchen featured cockroaches that would come out at night, you know, out of the drain, you know.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] When you turn the light on.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I mean, our kitchen featured cockroaches that would come out at night, you know, out of the drain, you know.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] When you turn the light on.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[User] So my mom was like kind of freaked out about the situation.

[Assistant] But she wasn't sleeping there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When you turn the light on.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[User] So my mom was like kind of freaked out about the situation.

[Assistant] But she wasn't sleeping there.

[User] No, she wasn't sleeping there. But it was nice. And one of the things that she remembered was going shopping with me in the bazaar, and she wanted to buy this pair of shoes. She saw these shoes that she liked and negotiate, you know, try to make a deal.

[Assistant] Ah, so in the bazaar, you don't pay what their first price.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So my mom was like kind of freaked out about the situation.

[Assistant] But she wasn't sleeping there.

[User] No, she wasn't sleeping there. But it was nice. And one of the things that she remembered was going shopping with me in the bazaar, and she wanted to buy this pair of shoes. She saw these shoes that she liked and negotiate, you know, try to make a deal.

[Assistant] Ah, so in the bazaar, you don't pay what their first price.

[User] No, no, no. So we made some kind of deal and I wasn't satisfied with it. And I told my mom, look, we've just got to walk away from the person, okay? And she's all upset. I want the shoes. Mom, just got to walk away from the person.

[Assistant] It's not how you do it. Right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. So we made some kind of deal and I wasn't satisfied with it. And I told my mom, look, we've just got to walk away from the person, okay? And she's all upset. I want the shoes. Mom, just got to walk away from the person.

[Assistant] It's not how you do it. Right.

[User] You know? So we walked away and he came after us and said, okay, okay, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so my mom was happy about that. She remembers that one. Yeah.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you'd like to say about your time in the Peace Corps? Would you recommend it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so my mom was happy about that. She remembers that one. Yeah.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you'd like to say about your time in the Peace Corps? Would you recommend it?

[User] Would I recommend it?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I guess it depends who I'm recommending it to.

[Assistant] Well, a kid graduating from Berkeley today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Would I recommend it?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I guess it depends who I'm recommending it to.

[Assistant] Well, a kid graduating from Berkeley today.

[User] I'd would say that it's definitely a good experience and a good way to see people in real life in a different country. But it also is going to mean some sacrifice and discomfort. So you've got to be okay with that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Do you think it changed your perspective on the world in any way?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess it depends who I'm recommending it to.

[Assistant] Well, a kid graduating from Berkeley today.

[User] I'd would say that it's definitely a good experience and a good way to see people in real life in a different country. But it also is going to mean some sacrifice and discomfort. So you've got to be okay with that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Do you think it changed your perspective on the world in any way?

[User] Oh, absolutely. No doubt about it. Dramatically.

[Assistant] Does it affect your own perception of your own country, of the United States, having been abroad, having been there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, absolutely. No doubt about it. Dramatically.

[Assistant] Does it affect your own perception of your own country, of the United States, having been abroad, having been there?

[User] Absolutely.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah, no, I gave you that moment of going to the village, you know, and the people kind of enjoying their life.

[Assistant] Yes. No TV. That's right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, no, I gave you that moment of going to the village, you know, and the people kind of enjoying their life.

[Assistant] Yes. No TV. That's right.

[User] And all that stuff. And another thing I noticed was that the families were very close to each other. And, you know, when I, one of the things that struck me when I came back to the U.S. was this kind of casual way of parents picking up their kids from the airport. You know, like no big deal, you know, like from the international terminal at the airport. And contrast that to Iran, where it is a really big deal, you know, to see one of your family people coming back again.

[Assistant] Embracing.

[User] Very close. Yeah. And another thing was the contrast between someone in Iran who really was qualified. I met one person who wanted to be a doctor. Very, very good person. Not, not, you know, a not a Peace Corps volunteer. But somehow we met. I don't remember how. But he wanted to be a doctor and it was just very, very difficult, almost impossible, you know. And it just, I realized, you know, it's like an unfair situation, you know, because I can come back to the U.S. and I can do whatever I want, you know? But to be a doctor in Iran is like this tiny number of people can go to school there for it.

[Assistant] And would you have to be a member of the moneyed elite in order to get that education?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very close. Yeah. And another thing was the contrast between someone in Iran who really was qualified. I met one person who wanted to be a doctor. Very, very good person. Not, not, you know, a not a Peace Corps volunteer. But somehow we met. I don't remember how. But he wanted to be a doctor and it was just very, very difficult, almost impossible, you know. And it just, I realized, you know, it's like an unfair situation, you know, because I can come back to the U.S. and I can do whatever I want, you know? But to be a doctor in Iran is like this tiny number of people can go to school there for it.

[Assistant] And would you have to be a member of the moneyed elite in order to get that education?

[User] That I don't even know about. Probably so. You know, you probably have to be connected somehow to.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that struck me. It's like unfortunate, you know, that people couldn't have the opportunities that we have.

[Assistant] Yeah. When you came back, what did you do with the rest of your life? Did you go back to school? Did you get an advanced degree or did you go right back to work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That I don't even know about. Probably so. You know, you probably have to be connected somehow to.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that struck me. It's like unfortunate, you know, that people couldn't have the opportunities that we have.

[Assistant] Yeah. When you came back, what did you do with the rest of your life? Did you go back to school? Did you get an advanced degree or did you go right back to work?

[User] What did I do? Well, I think I had taken some aptitude tests at some point that suggested that physical therapy would be a good career for me. Because I did have, I didn't want to live like I saw all the people at the companies that I work for, kind of these large companies. And it seemed like not so much of a joyful sort of career. And I realized that it's much better if you can do something that you're interacting with and helping people directly.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you think your experience in Iran helped you see that about yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that struck me. It's like unfortunate, you know, that people couldn't have the opportunities that we have.

[Assistant] Yeah. When you came back, what did you do with the rest of your life? Did you go back to school? Did you get an advanced degree or did you go right back to work?

[User] What did I do? Well, I think I had taken some aptitude tests at some point that suggested that physical therapy would be a good career for me. Because I did have, I didn't want to live like I saw all the people at the companies that I work for, kind of these large companies. And it seemed like not so much of a joyful sort of career. And I realized that it's much better if you can do something that you're interacting with and helping people directly.

[Assistant] Yeah. Do you think your experience in Iran helped you see that about yourself?

[User] Well, it at least helped me to see that I needed to do something different than trying to go back to one of those companies or environments where I was before. So, um. So what? I started studying physical therapy, and to do that I had to take prerequisite courses at Cal State Hayward, now Cal State East Bay. So I was doing that. And, you know, Carol is a member of the Unification Church and so am I.

[Assistant] Carol is my cousin, which is how we're mentioning Carol.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it at least helped me to see that I needed to do something different than trying to go back to one of those companies or environments where I was before. So, um. So what? I started studying physical therapy, and to do that I had to take prerequisite courses at Cal State Hayward, now Cal State East Bay. So I was doing that. And, you know, Carol is a member of the Unification Church and so am I.

[Assistant] Carol is my cousin, which is how we're mentioning Carol.

[User] You know, yeah. I was going to the Berkeley campus to, after I got back, to do some research in the library. And I actually met one of the members of our church there on campus. They had a table there. And so I got connected that way. And, you know, I was, I was looking for something more than just kind of a small, selfish sort of lifestyle. And so I did want to meet this community. So I was introduced to the church and I continued to go into the, to continue with the physical therapy prerequisite classes. But eventually I realized, you know, really what I want to do is just be a full time missionary for the church.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] So that's, that's, that's what I did. I didn't get another job with an engineering company for quite a while. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, thank you, Mike.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, yeah. I was going to the Berkeley campus to, after I got back, to do some research in the library. And I actually met one of the members of our church there on campus. They had a table there. And so I got connected that way. And, you know, I was, I was looking for something more than just kind of a small, selfish sort of lifestyle. And so I did want to meet this community. So I was introduced to the church and I continued to go into the, to continue with the physical therapy prerequisite classes. But eventually I realized, you know, really what I want to do is just be a full time missionary for the church.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] So that's, that's, that's what I did. I didn't get another job with an engineering company for quite a while. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, thank you, Mike.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you'd like to say?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's, that's, that's what I did. I didn't get another job with an engineering company for quite a while. Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] Well, thank you, Mike.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you'd like to say?

[User] No. Ask your next question.

[Assistant] I think I'm out of questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Is there anything else that you'd like to say?

[User] No. Ask your next question.

[Assistant] I think I'm out of questions.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] Thank you very much. It's been wonderful getting your story.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not confident that we could do it. But there were plenty of stopping points along the way. Not once you light the fire, in terms of the risks now begin to multiply. But there were plenty of places along the operational mission where we could stop and regroup and reconsider, even though we were up there.

[Assistant] Now that the rest of the Space Center here in Houston knew the plan, what was the reaction from the troops here?

[User] It was total excitement and exhilaration. Everybody recognized what a challenge that was, and what a shock to them, like the rest of us, that NASA was willing to do it. Because by this time we were pretty—what's the word? We were a pretty bureaucratic organization by this point in time. Even though NASA was the best-run group in the government, which even Senator—who was the senator from [Wisconsin]?

[Assistant] [William] Proxmire?

[User] Proxmire. He invented the Golden Fleece Award. Even though he said we were wasting all this money, he said on the floor of the Senate that it was still the best-run organization in the government. So we were a very great organization, and able to do what we did technically, but we still were bureaucratic at that point from where we had come from.

[Assistant] When we took just a second for a break, you talked about how it was a minute-by-minute-planned event. Would you share with us how you balanced all those aspects that you mentioned: the scientific goals and objectives, getting the people trained? Tell us how you started putting all this together and were able to accomplish what you did in such a short amount of time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you better worry about it, because if you don't worry about it it's going to happen, and it's going to give you problems.

[Assistant] I was curious about a different type of issue that I thought might take a lot of details to think about it, and that's the equipment to photograph the Moon. You had photos that come back from unmanned, but now as you mentioned you were having eyeballs that were going to do that.

[User] Yes, well it turns out that's easy. It turns out that you can do it with a Brownie and get perfect pictures. Because there is no atmosphere, and the focusing is so far away that you don't have to worry about that if you're taking pictures of the Moon. The colors are true because you don't have the atmosphere screwing it up. So if you take an F setting in a Brownie camera, it's about as good as you can get. Now, we did use the best. It was a Hasselblad. I met him. Great gentleman, [Victor Hasselblad]. He was very very pleased that we had his camera on board. Probably made his company. But we used a Hasselblad camera because it took great pictures. But as I said, you could have used a Brownie.

[Assistant] That's interesting. It was the first time that the world got to see the Earth.

[User] Now that probably was the most significant picture. I was reminded of that the other day, when I said I was going to do this. Somebody said, "That picture they took of the Earth was probably the greatest picture ever obtained in space," and it is. Taking that picture of Earth was really something, and particularly Earthrise at the Moon. I'm surprised it's not in this office. It's almost in every office in the Johnson Space Center somewhere.

[Assistant] We'll fix that. We'll get it in here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, well it turns out that's easy. It turns out that you can do it with a Brownie and get perfect pictures. Because there is no atmosphere, and the focusing is so far away that you don't have to worry about that if you're taking pictures of the Moon. The colors are true because you don't have the atmosphere screwing it up. So if you take an F setting in a Brownie camera, it's about as good as you can get. Now, we did use the best. It was a Hasselblad. I met him. Great gentleman, [Victor Hasselblad]. He was very very pleased that we had his camera on board. Probably made his company. But we used a Hasselblad camera because it took great pictures. But as I said, you could have used a Brownie.

[Assistant] That's interesting. It was the first time that the world got to see the Earth.

[User] Now that probably was the most significant picture. I was reminded of that the other day, when I said I was going to do this. Somebody said, "That picture they took of the Earth was probably the greatest picture ever obtained in space," and it is. Taking that picture of Earth was really something, and particularly Earthrise at the Moon. I'm surprised it's not in this office. It's almost in every office in the Johnson Space Center somewhere.

[Assistant] We'll fix that. We'll get it in here.

[User] But it's a very very very famous picture. Borman will tell you that when he saw that, it was one of the most impressive sights he's ever seen in his life. All three of them will tell you that.

[Assistant] I found it interesting in your book that you talked about Bill Anders talking about Earthshine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now that probably was the most significant picture. I was reminded of that the other day, when I said I was going to do this. Somebody said, "That picture they took of the Earth was probably the greatest picture ever obtained in space," and it is. Taking that picture of Earth was really something, and particularly Earthrise at the Moon. I'm surprised it's not in this office. It's almost in every office in the Johnson Space Center somewhere.

[Assistant] We'll fix that. We'll get it in here.

[User] But it's a very very very famous picture. Borman will tell you that when he saw that, it was one of the most impressive sights he's ever seen in his life. All three of them will tell you that.

[Assistant] I found it interesting in your book that you talked about Bill Anders talking about Earthshine.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Can you share a little bit more about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> None that I can think right off. There were always a lot of fun times. I remember when Scott Carpenter was up at Johnsville, Pennsylvania. This was a little later in the Mercury Program. He was up there evaluating another suit of ours. This was in '63, because my son was born July 10 of '63. He was up there. My wife and her parents were up there with me, and they came over to the centrifuge, and Scott came out of the spacecraft all in the suit, out of the gondola.\n\n I wonder if we could start that over again. Can I repeat what I was saying? Go ahead and repeat your question. You said anecdotes, didn't you.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] R> Okay. I remember one thing that came up, was that Scott Carpenter was at Johnsville evaluating a new suit for us. My wife and my son, who was just born—he might have been less than a month old—they came over to the centrifuge, and I introduced him to my in-laws, and we plopped my son Tom in his arms when he was fully suited and had a picture taken of it. He still has that picture. I thought that was pretty neat.

[Assistant] That's probably very special for your son.

[User] R> Right.

[Assistant] Not everybody gets to be held by an astronaut.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> Okay. I remember one thing that came up, was that Scott Carpenter was at Johnsville evaluating a new suit for us. My wife and my son, who was just born—he might have been less than a month old—they came over to the centrifuge, and I introduced him to my in-laws, and we plopped my son Tom in his arms when he was fully suited and had a picture taken of it. He still has that picture. I thought that was pretty neat.

[Assistant] That's probably very special for your son.

[User] R> Right.

[Assistant] Not everybody gets to be held by an astronaut.

[User] R> Fully suited, too.

[Assistant] After the Mercury Program, the Manned Spacecraft Center was being built and you were transferred down here. How did you and your family feel about transferring down to Houston? Did that change your job any?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> Right.

[Assistant] Not everybody gets to be held by an astronaut.

[User] R> Fully suited, too.

[Assistant] After the Mercury Program, the Manned Spacecraft Center was being built and you were transferred down here. How did you and your family feel about transferring down to Houston? Did that change your job any?

[User] R> After the Mercury Program, they asked me to transfer to Houston. This was in '63. This was shortly after my son was born. Basically I closed up shop, transferred a lot of things from the Cape to Houston, and then I drove from Cape Canaveral to Houston, and we went to work at the Lane Wells Building in Houston because the site was still being built. That's where we started working on suits for the Gemini Program.

[Assistant] What type of changes did you as suit technicians have to make when you changed from a one-man crew to a two-man crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> Yes. They were with David Clark Company, and they had a field office down here. They worked right next door to our suit lab.

[Assistant] Did they participate in the training with the astronauts or just on maintaining the suits? What exactly did they do?

[User] R> They basically maintained the suit. Their job was to maintain the suit, test the suit, that sort of thing. The bioinstrumentation primarily took place at the Cape, let's say. It was done by bioinstrumentation techs at the Cape. The suit-up involved the suit technicians, the NASA suit technicians. The contractors were there to maintain the suits, but that was their responsibility.

[Assistant] Do you have any special memories from the period you worked in Gemini?

[User] R> I can always remember things like receiving a suit and finding that the arms and the leg liners were twisted and stuff like that. It was one of those things where things that aren't supposed to happen, but that's why you come to work early and check out the suit, to make sure that things were done right. So you have to unzip this thing. Sometimes that was a little bit of a hassle, because you had to completely unzip this thing from the inside, reaching in just by feel, and then straightening out the twist and zipping it up correctly and that sort of thing. We had a good bunch of people working with us. They were conscientious folks. Mistakes happen, but fortunately we caught all these mistakes.

[Assistant] Why don't we take a short break before we get into Apollo. [Tape recorder turned off.]\n\n Let's pick up where we left off. You went from the Gemini Program over to the Apollo Program. What were you doing initially?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> Because they basically got both the spacecraft, the suits, qualified for flight. If I remember correctly, Chamber B had both—you could do cold temperatures or you could do the hot side of the temperature scale, plus 250 and minus 250, that sort of thing. My memory may not serve me right when I say we ran those temperature ranges on those two programs. I'm not sure that we did. I don't really remember on LTA-8 whether we ran the—I know we did it on other tests. Those were two programs that got the spacecraft and the suits that much closer to launch.

[Assistant] After you finished working on those test programs, what did you do next?

[User] R> We supported a lot of in-house tests. We supported a lot of tests out on the lunar rock pile out here at JSC [Johnson Space Center]. I didn't get to go to Flagstaff, Arizona. Walt Salyer covered that particular test. There was a lunar terrain, and I think Walt Cunningham and a few of the other astronauts participated in that exercise. We had a lot of programs in-house that we supported, in the trainers, command module trainers, in the lunar module trainers. We supported the different crews. I did support Block One, but my first Apollo flight that I supported, I believe, was Apollo 10, and I worked Apollo 10, Apollo 14, and Apollo 17. We had about three teams working at that time. We had the fellows from the Air Force with us, Troy Stewart and Frank Hernandez and Barry Lewis and Byron Smith. George Summers was the lead fellow, master sergeant, during those programs, and those guys were a great support to us, because we didn't have enough personnel, NASA personnel, to support all these flights.

[Assistant] You said the first crew you supported in the Apollo program was Apollo 10.

[User] R> Yes.

[Assistant] So how did the support of this crew differ from supporting the Gemini crews that you worked with?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> That was lot of work.

[Assistant] Was there any specific mission that you have special memories of during Apollo that involved some type of involvement from you?

[User] R> I remember reading, Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] was talking about practicing with his golf club, you know, and nobody really knew he was going to do that, but one day when we were at the Cape, he asked me to come back into the suit room, that he wanted to try something. I can't remember whether this was at the end of the day or like that. There weren't any people around. We went back, and he asked me to pressurize his suit in the suit room, he wanted to practice something. Lo and behold, here he had this golf club, which was an extension of a tool that he had, and he was practicing. We pressurized him, and he was practicing his swing at that time. I remember that vividly. We had good times with the crew. We worked close with the crew, developed, like I say, a good rapport with the crew.

[Assistant] Were there any astronauts in particular that you had an especially close relationship with?

[User] R> No, I think basically it was a working relationship. It wasn't a social relationship, but we always had a good time. We always felt like we were doing our job and they were respectful that we were doing our job and had confidence in what we were doing. I was taught by a fellow by the name of Joe Schmitt, who I worked with in the very beginning, who had excellent work standards, and Joe was very meticulous in everything that he did, and I like to think some of that rubbed off on me.

[Assistant] After the Apollo Program, Skylab began. Were you involved with the Skylab Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> No, I think basically it was a working relationship. It wasn't a social relationship, but we always had a good time. We always felt like we were doing our job and they were respectful that we were doing our job and had confidence in what we were doing. I was taught by a fellow by the name of Joe Schmitt, who I worked with in the very beginning, who had excellent work standards, and Joe was very meticulous in everything that he did, and I like to think some of that rubbed off on me.

[Assistant] After the Apollo Program, Skylab began. Were you involved with the Skylab Program?

[User] R> Yes. I worked, I think it was the second Skylab flight with Al [Alan L.] Bean [Jr.] and Owen [K.] Garriott and with Jack [R.] Lousma. I worked that particular flight, and that was a different trainer altogether. That was over in Building 5 also. Building Five changed a lot during those days. There were many different kinds of trainers that were put in that mock-up over the years. We did a lot of training, command module training, training of sorts in Skylab, though they weren't wearing suits in there. They'd have the suits off, and they'd be doing other kinds of stuff in there. Basically, the Skylab suit was basically the A7-LB suit that we flew for Apollo 15, 16, an 17. We wore that same suit for Skylab Program.

[Assistant] Since they didn't wear it once they got up there, you were just involved with working with them on training on the launch portion and the return portion?

[User] R> Yes, basically that's so. They wore a garment that they called an in-flight cover garment, ICG, I believe it was called, a Teflon-coated garment. It was quite heavy. We had to make sure that that equipment was available to them and any other support equipment that they needed. But suits were used primarily in the command module.

[Assistant] In Apollo-Soyuz, did you participate in that program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> Yes. I worked, I think it was the second Skylab flight with Al [Alan L.] Bean [Jr.] and Owen [K.] Garriott and with Jack [R.] Lousma. I worked that particular flight, and that was a different trainer altogether. That was over in Building 5 also. Building Five changed a lot during those days. There were many different kinds of trainers that were put in that mock-up over the years. We did a lot of training, command module training, training of sorts in Skylab, though they weren't wearing suits in there. They'd have the suits off, and they'd be doing other kinds of stuff in there. Basically, the Skylab suit was basically the A7-LB suit that we flew for Apollo 15, 16, an 17. We wore that same suit for Skylab Program.

[Assistant] Since they didn't wear it once they got up there, you were just involved with working with them on training on the launch portion and the return portion?

[User] R> Yes, basically that's so. They wore a garment that they called an in-flight cover garment, ICG, I believe it was called, a Teflon-coated garment. It was quite heavy. We had to make sure that that equipment was available to them and any other support equipment that they needed. But suits were used primarily in the command module.

[Assistant] In Apollo-Soyuz, did you participate in that program?

[User] R> I did participate in that program. I wasn't the lead tech on that program. One of the Air Force fellows that was with us, Frank Hernandez, he was the lead tech on Apollo-Soyuz Program, but there were three of us that worked together on that program.

[Assistant] So how did that differ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> Yes, basically that's so. They wore a garment that they called an in-flight cover garment, ICG, I believe it was called, a Teflon-coated garment. It was quite heavy. We had to make sure that that equipment was available to them and any other support equipment that they needed. But suits were used primarily in the command module.

[Assistant] In Apollo-Soyuz, did you participate in that program?

[User] R> I did participate in that program. I wasn't the lead tech on that program. One of the Air Force fellows that was with us, Frank Hernandez, he was the lead tech on Apollo-Soyuz Program, but there were three of us that worked together on that program.

[Assistant] So how did that differ?

[User] R> As I remember, we still had the three astronauts to work with: [Thomas P.] Stafford, [Vance D.] Brand, and Deke [Donald K.] Slayton. I do remember at that time that one of the Russian cosmonauts came in and wanted to get into a suit, and we put him into—I think it was either Tom Stafford's suit or Deke Slayton's suit at the time, and he had a translator with him. [Alexei Arkhipovich] Leonov—I can't remember his full name. Anyway, he came in. He was the Russian commander of Apollo-Soyuz, and we put him in a suit. Then Tom was supposed to get in one of their suits when he went over to Russia. I don't know if he ever did or not. It was interesting.

[Assistant] How did you feel about working with the Russians at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> I did participate in that program. I wasn't the lead tech on that program. One of the Air Force fellows that was with us, Frank Hernandez, he was the lead tech on Apollo-Soyuz Program, but there were three of us that worked together on that program.

[Assistant] So how did that differ?

[User] R> As I remember, we still had the three astronauts to work with: [Thomas P.] Stafford, [Vance D.] Brand, and Deke [Donald K.] Slayton. I do remember at that time that one of the Russian cosmonauts came in and wanted to get into a suit, and we put him into—I think it was either Tom Stafford's suit or Deke Slayton's suit at the time, and he had a translator with him. [Alexei Arkhipovich] Leonov—I can't remember his full name. Anyway, he came in. He was the Russian commander of Apollo-Soyuz, and we put him in a suit. Then Tom was supposed to get in one of their suits when he went over to Russia. I don't know if he ever did or not. It was interesting.

[Assistant] How did you feel about working with the Russians at that time?

[User] R> Well, it was a new experience. We didn't have too much contact with them, because we just saw them on rare occasions. I got more experience with them during the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] There was a long span of time between the Apollo-Soyuz and Shuttle. What did you do during that period of time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] R> No. I think they all did a good job with what they had. They were all receptive to improvements on the suit. They got a lot of feedback from our engineers. A lot of our engineers were involved in suit changes, improvements on the suits, that sort of thing.

[Assistant] When Apollo 11 landed on the moon, where were you and what were you thinking at the time?

[User] R> As I remember, I was home that day waiting in anticipation, like everybody else. I didn't work Apollo 11. I was glued to my TV, just like I think everybody else was.

[Assistant] When you first started with the Navy back at the beginning of your career, would you ever have imagined where it would lead you and what you would be involved with?

[User] R> No, not really. I went into the Navy with the goal of going to submarine school, and that didn't work out, so I ended up in Hospital Corps school, and I worked in pediatrics, newborn nursery, until a Navy buddy of mine, George Bates, convinced me that we needed to get the hell out of Great Lakes and go to the School of Aviation Medicine down in Pensacola, Florida, because we were working port and starboard, which means every other night we were pulling duty, night duty.\n\n So we both applied for the school and got the school and went down to the School of Aviation Medicine and went through the twelve, sixteen weeks of School of Aviation Medicine. Then I worked in the eye clinic for a while, and George worked over at the centrifuge, and then I went to work in low-pressure chambers.\n\n So here came NASA down, looking for chamber techs, and that's how. But I had no earthly idea [what I was going to do]. I was tending bar part time at the O Club and the BOQ. [Laughter] I was getting out of the Navy. So I went to work as a bartender at a country club, and here come a letter from NASA. That's how it all got started.

[Assistant] We thank you so much for coming down to talk to us. It's been wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank you. On St. Paddy’s Day, my father’s mother, Florence Fogerty, would be pleased to know that we’re doing this on St. Paddy’s Day, if she were still with us.

[Assistant] Thank you. We appreciate it.\n\n I wanted to ask you, in the last interview when we spoke, you mentioned that you were actually told by George [W. S.] Abbey and [Richard H.] Dick Truly that you were going to command the return-to-flight mission, but you were told that you couldn’t actually tell anyone this information. What was your reaction when you heard this?

[User] Well, I was absolutely thrilled that I was entrusted with that mission. I think every member of the Astronaut Office, probably without exception, wanted to be on that flight, so I was thrilled with it. The fact that I couldn’t tell people about it or speak about it publicly, any concerns about that were dwarfed by the enthusiasm that I had, knowing that this gift was in my pocket now. I knew that, of course, until something’s announced, it can be changed, and so that was in the back of my mind. But it wasn’t an overriding concern; once we had the crew put together, as I think we talked about, with Dick [Richard O.] Covey coming in to fill the slot that was left when Roy [D.] Bridges went back to the Air Force, and “Pinky” [George D.] Nelson was invited back from the University of Washington [Seattle, Washington] to round out our crew.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little bit about the crew relationship? I’ve actually seen videotape of your crew in orbit, and you guys were wearing Hawaiian shirts. Somebody was surfing I believe.

[User] That’s right.

[Assistant] Can you talk a little about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Were there any major questions that the reporters would often ask you? When we talked about the STS-7 mission, they were asking Sally [K.] Ride all these gendered questions.

[User] Right. Well, clearly, “Do you think you’re ready? Do you think that the problems have been fixed? What gives you confidence that the problems have been fixed?”\n\n I don’t know if I’d mentioned it before, but Dick Truly, at the time Associate Administrator for Space Flight, Code M, he gave me a standing invitation to attend any decision-making meeting involving senior management as it related to preparations for STS-26. I think that was an unusual invitation. I don’t know if it was ever done before in the Shuttle Program or since. But what that gave me was the opportunity to gain confidence in the process.\n\n I would fly over to Marshall Space Flight Center [Huntsville, Alabama], and the senior management council, which was Admiral Truly and J.R. [James R.] Thompson and Aaron Cohen and the program manager for the solid rocket boosters and so forth, sitting around the table, “Should we test the solid rocket motors this way or that way? What’s the latest on the testing?” So when all was said and done, I had the confidence in the fixes that had been made and I had confidence in the team of people that had made those decisions. I have suggested, although perhaps this suggestion wasn’t needed, but I’ve suggested to current Associate Administrator Bill [William F.] Readdy that Eileen [M.] Collins would benefit from such an invitation, and I mentioned it to Eileen also.

[Assistant] So you’ve had an opportunity to speak with both of them?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Are there any lessons learned that you haven’t passed on, that you think should be passed on about this return-to-flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Only a few months after your flight, you actually decided to leave NASA.

[User] I did. I was forty-seven years old, approaching my forty-eighth birthday, and I knew I wouldn’t do this for the rest of my life. So I was very conscious about being past the age of fifty and trying to develop a new career. So it was a very conscious thought that revolved around my age. In fact, I had made the decision to retire before our last big press conference, but I decided not to mention that in the press conference, because I thought that would distract from what the press conference was all about. But I also decided that if someone asked me, that I would respond, and someone at the press conference said, “Are you planning on flying again?” and I said, “No.” So the next day, we had our video opportunities with the three morning shows,\n\n Today Show\n\n ,\n\n Good Morning America\n\n , and I forget the—

[Assistant] I think it’s the\n\n Early Show\n\n , or\n\n Morning Show\n\n .

[User] Whatever. And I remember Jane Pauley, who was the host of the\n\n Today Show\n\n at the time, in the process of this interview said, “And Captain Hauck, we understand that you’ve decided to retire.”\n\n So I think I’m probably one of the few people who was able to announce on national television that I was on the job market. [Laughs] You can’t buy that kind of publicity.

[Assistant] Can you talk to me a little bit about your work with the Navy? You actually went into their Space Systems Division.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t work with NASA, in this position, very closely at all, but I have worked with NASA on a pro bono basis mostly. The distinction that I want to make is that as insurers, we don’t deal with NASA, because they don’t insure. The taxpayer provides that insurance. But I’ve been able to stay in close contact with NASA in an advisory role over the years. I’ve chaired several studies. I chaired a group to give an independent look at the preparations for the second Hubble [Space Telescope] servicing mission. I chaired a couple of National Research Council studies for NASA, one on the vulnerability of the Space Shuttle to orbital debris, and the other one on what measurements need to be done robotically on Mars before humans go to Mars. That one was completed just two years ago and apparently is still being of some use to NASA. The name of the report is Safe on Mars.\n\n I’m currently on what’s called a graybeard panel, an old-guy panel to try to help NASA as they have developed the next-generation reusable launch vehicle, which now is morphing into the Project Constellation, I guess. So even though I professionally don’t have a direct relationship with NASA, my ties with NASA are still pretty strong.

[Assistant] I’m glad to hear that you still maintain that contact.

[User] Well, it’s good for me, and I hope it’s helpful to NASA.

[Assistant] Before I close out today, I just had a couple of general questions for you.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] When you were working for NASA, is there any point at which you could look back and say, “This was the most challenging milestone for me personally.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t screw up. [Laughs] I don’t know, I just worked very hard and I was very fortunate. I was rewarded by always being given good assignments and working with a good team that answered the mail, I think. I don’t know, I think my strength is probably in flying ability, but also perhaps in a leadership role in bringing people together and working through issues, but I can’t point to anything in particular.

[Assistant] Is there anything you think we might have overlooked in your previous oral history or today that you wanted to talk about?

[User] No, I think this has been pretty thorough. Obviously we’ve got reams of files that I could review and go through, but I think we’ve touched on issues that would be of interest and may be of some significance.

[Assistant] I thank you again for your time.

[User] Thank you.

[Assistant] I enjoyed it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It should be. I’m very pleased to see, reading in the space press, that the last Space Station Research Conference was so well attended. People are so enthusiastic finally about the Space Station as a research venue.

[Assistant] The one in July that just happened, that Research and Development conference?

[User] Was it in Boston? I think it was in Boston in July.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes. I’d been to the first few of those, and they were lackluster, but apparently now it really looks like the potential customer community is getting enthusiastic. Not a moment too soon. You’re right though that anything that keeps the space program vigorous and healthy and active is going to be good for all of us. A rising tide really will lift all boats and we will get more visibility and more credibility and have more responsibility. Not as much as we want, but more than we would have otherwise.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the National Space Biomedical Research Institute [NSBRI] and that relationship. You mentioned it in one of the other oral histories. From what I’ve read, in ’96 NASA, knowing that they didn’t have the resources to deal with all the medical challenges, created a cooperative agreement with this nonprofit. Is it housed with Baylor [College of Medicine, Center for Space Medicine, Houston, Texas]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Was it in Boston? I think it was in Boston in July.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes. I’d been to the first few of those, and they were lackluster, but apparently now it really looks like the potential customer community is getting enthusiastic. Not a moment too soon. You’re right though that anything that keeps the space program vigorous and healthy and active is going to be good for all of us. A rising tide really will lift all boats and we will get more visibility and more credibility and have more responsibility. Not as much as we want, but more than we would have otherwise.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the National Space Biomedical Research Institute [NSBRI] and that relationship. You mentioned it in one of the other oral histories. From what I’ve read, in ’96 NASA, knowing that they didn’t have the resources to deal with all the medical challenges, created a cooperative agreement with this nonprofit. Is it housed with Baylor [College of Medicine, Center for Space Medicine, Houston, Texas]?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Could you talk about that relationship as far as with the Human Research Program, since it sounds to me like it’s more in line with what you’re trying to do? How does NASA work with them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. It was rough for a little while, but we’re all dedicated and mature individuals. Nobody liked it being adversarial, and we’ve moved beyond that.

[Assistant] That’s good. You mentioned that the move from building the Space Station, the assembly mentality to the utilization mentality—

[User] Right. I didn’t repeat that, but for the record, that’s a big deal. Going from the construction phase to the utilization phase really has changed the way the Space Station is regarded and is used. I give full credit to Mike Suffredini and his group and Julie Robinson for embracing that change in paradigm and really doing whatever they can to make utilization the priority on the Station, even though I’m unhappy that we’re not the most important utilization aspect of that process.

[Assistant] They have that Revolutionize ISS for Science and Exploration team, the RISE team. Have you been involved in any of that?

[User] No. I hear about things like that but I really have enough other things to do. I’m delighted when somebody else takes on those responsibilities.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about the one-year mission and some of those aspects of what’s going on in research with the one-year mission. You’ve been involved in some of that. If you want to talk about your involvement in it. You mentioned before that the one-year mission—and because of your current position it’s interesting—is like going back to Phase I with the Shuttle-Mir [Program] because of our relationship with Russia and that cooperation. If you want to talk about that mission and what the hope is, the research that’s going to be done, and then of course with the twins and the twin research that’s going on because of that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I have known Peg for a long time, and she is pretty amazing. But it’s pretty cool seeing the Space Station utilized the way it is, and yes, I like that.

[Assistant] Well, it’s exciting to hear all the things going on at Kennedy. Are there more things that you’d like to share with us today?

[User] Oh, gosh. Man, let’s see.

[Assistant] And I have to think too, as a pilot you must be excited about all of the different ways that your Center can offer aerospace. Like you mentioned, from the flights that could come off of the Shuttle landing strip, and the Air Force plane. All that’s just right there in your backyard to go touch.

[User] It’s pretty cool, but I don’t get to fly it, that’s the problem. I have my own little 1978 [American Champion 8KCAB] Super Decathlon aerobatic aircraft that I keep at Merritt Island [Airport, Florida] that I go out and fly upside-down, and do loops and rolls, and have fun in on the weekends.

[Assistant] Take your own tour of the Center?