[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, they spoke English because it was a British colony. So it wasn't like you had to speak, you know. But the kids all knew Swahili. And there are about 42, I think, tribal languages. So most of these kids could speak other languages, but most people could speak Swahili. So you really had to know Swahili and English, because a lot of people spoke English as well. So it was kind of a combination. But the interesting thing was that the, um, the assessments and all when we got to the school, there wasn't anything. So all of us said, you know, you know.

[Assistant] Here's the kids.

[User] Yeah, right. And you know, you know of other assessments and personality. But, but none of that had any significance. And we took, we all brought all that not thinking. So we're saying, okay, if the kid had to identify, is this a television? Well, they wouldn't know, you know. So we, actually one of the side things that we'd do, one the fun things was we developed our own assessments based on Swahili, which was kind of fun, you know, where we tried to.

[Assistant] More culturally sensitive.

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we kind of tried to, um, and it was, uh, it was a real mix. It wasn't like one, one identification or category. You know, we had one child that was, you know, quite, quite visually impaired. Um. And we had, like I said, we had Ugandan crisis kids. We had kids that, that, um, mentally, you know, weren't, weren't up to, you know, developmentally delayed. Didn't have a lot of physically handicapped kids because, again, the site that we were at wasn't, you know, it wasn't set up for that. It was.

[Assistant] Now, did you have a specific counterpart that you worked with or was there a group of locals that were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But there's a lot of them around. And so this school was kind of like that. But he also had funding, he had some money, and he also wanted to engage the group of parents in this whole effort. So he was more. And of course, Kristina Kenyatta was involved.

[Assistant] Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you next to us, was whether you worked directly with Kristina Kenyatta.

[User] We did some with her. I mean, she was, you know, she wanted us to create, part of our goal was to create a curriculum and to create a process and assessments around all of this. We also worked with Eunice Kennedy Shriver. We started, I started a Special Olympics chapter, which was really cool. I mean, I never would've been able to do that. I mean, she actually came over to Kenya.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] When we started the chapter, so that was really cool. That was really cool.

[Assistant] Had Sargent passed away by then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was really, you know, for, for a project, you know, you couldn't, I couldn't touch anything like that. And to be at that kind of beginning ground level. And the school had since, you know, evolved and turned into probably 100 schools across, across the, across the country, you know, just in terms of a similar pattern and, you know, training teachers, etcetera. It was interesting to train the teachers because their educational system, the British system, it was not the Socratic, you know, teaching here. So they wanted, they wanted us to write a book about if the kid did this, like a recipe.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And of course, special education isn't like that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it was very, it was difficult to. First of all, you had to kind of go back and help them understand that, you know, everything doesn't have an answer and everything isn't like a recipe. Um, and so you have to kind of, um, use some of what you know. But then also what, what, what are you faced with at that time?

[Assistant] Yeah, because every kid is different and every disability that they're experiencing.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, again, the woman that this happened to. What, the incident in the?

[Assistant] No, with the cab.

[User] No, I never did. I never did. I don't know why I never did. And I don't know what it was. I just kind of thought, you know, I was just happy to be alive and, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So, no, I never did because, you know, I'm just thinking of it now. I should have.

[Assistant] Did you have any other health scares while you're over there other than the horrible dysentery when you first arrived?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I never did. I never did. I don't know why I never did. And I don't know what it was. I just kind of thought, you know, I was just happy to be alive and, you know.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So, no, I never did because, you know, I'm just thinking of it now. I should have.

[Assistant] Did you have any other health scares while you're over there other than the horrible dysentery when you first arrived?

[User]
Not a whole lot. No, no. I had pretty good health while I was there. Um, you know, I was careful with what I ate and I was careful with, with, um, you know, making sure things were washed and stuff. So, no, I mean, occasionally, I'm trying to think. Nothing like, you know, other than maybe an upset stomach once in a while or, you know, like stuff people get, you know, here as well. But nothing very serious. You know, there were people. We had a woman, an older woman, who was diagnosed with cancer, and she had to go home early. And we had a couple of people that got severe cases of malaria. But again, that was stupid. They didn't take the malaria pills. And then when they got home also they had continuing bouts with it.

So I was pretty good. And then even with the health care, you know, you could go down to the Peace Corps office and you kind of did your own blood work. You know, you prick yourself, you put your thing in, and put it in the. And so you were really the captain of your own health. And they gave us that book, which I think is a wonderful book. I don't know if they still do, Where There Is No Doctor. It's a great book. It's a great book.

[Assistant] No, I've heard about it but.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So what was really cool was having an understanding of the history and understanding so that by the time this election came, you could understand the, the differences. You know, and as I'm talking, the other thing that really, really hit home to me and to this day, every time the American flag goes up, I cry. Because you couldn't talk about politics. You couldn't talk about and you couldn't talk about, you know, you're in a room and you were taught don't say anything because somebody could come in and take you out.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So you really didn't have freedom of speech. You didn't talk politics, you didn't talk about what was, you know, who you were for or what you were, you know. So I was very aware of that while I was there. And I came back thinking, wow, we have so many freedoms that just are just so taken for granted. And I get so mad at people when they don't vote. I get so mad and I just realize what that took to get that and the, the freedom of speech. And then the abuse of all of that now, you know, is just, it's, it's. You know, it's one of those things that you just, you don't realize until you don't have it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, you don't realize. And I think that's the Peace Corps experience. I think the Peace Corps experience is we're all touched by how fortunate we are in this country.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. I think it makes everybody reflect.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So you really didn't have freedom of speech. You didn't talk politics, you didn't talk about what was, you know, who you were for or what you were, you know. So I was very aware of that while I was there. And I came back thinking, wow, we have so many freedoms that just are just so taken for granted. And I get so mad at people when they don't vote. I get so mad and I just realize what that took to get that and the, the freedom of speech. And then the abuse of all of that now, you know, is just, it's, it's. You know, it's one of those things that you just, you don't realize until you don't have it.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] You know, you don't realize. And I think that's the Peace Corps experience. I think the Peace Corps experience is we're all touched by how fortunate we are in this country.

[Assistant] Oh, yeah. I think it makes everybody reflect.

[User] I think it's a big part of, and I think that's the big, the big opportunity with the Peace Corps. I mean, I gained more than I gave. I always say that. It made me the person I am today. And it also has given me and, you know, an incredible perspective around the world and people and I think that's the true. I mean, I was fortunate. There are a lot of people that did not have good experiences, you know, that were volunteers that waited a long time to get posted or were injured. I had a really good friend of mine, she was up in Boston. She had a very strong Boston accent, and they placed her in Mombasa. And she's red haired and freckled. And kwashiorkor is a disease of, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah, a nutritional.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
A nutritional disease. And they thought she had that because she had the red hair and freckles. And they couldn't understand her. They couldn't understand her English because she had the accent. So they, they stoned her. They kept throwing stones at her. And at one point she wore a boubou just to cover herself up. She had a hard time. It was eventually they, they warmed up to her, but it was, you know, um.

And then there were people that, you know, came into the Peace Corps because they wanted to travel and they wanted to, you know, kind of take advantage of the system. And, you know, they weren't there for the real work. They were there for a free ride and they were there for the bird watching, you know, see the safaris. And, you know, so I think it's all different, um, different experiences. I feel very, very fortunate to have had a really good experience and to have one that I think was very meaningful. But I also dove into it with two feet and two hands.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, you know, I was very committed, very committed. And I had planned on staying a third year, but after this whole thing happened in Mombasa, I had to come home. I couldn't.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. When, when you were in training, did you live with a family then?

[User] No, we never did. We, in Nashville, we stayed in the dorms and at Kenya Science Teachers College we stayed in the dorms, so we never had that opportunity.

[Assistant] So you never had the chance?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, you know, I was very committed, very committed. And I had planned on staying a third year, but after this whole thing happened in Mombasa, I had to come home. I couldn't.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. When, when you were in training, did you live with a family then?

[User] No, we never did. We, in Nashville, we stayed in the dorms and at Kenya Science Teachers College we stayed in the dorms, so we never had that opportunity.

[Assistant] So you never had the chance?

[User] No. That was the one thing I wish we would have had. You know, I had, I did, was very close to my parents in the school. And I was, you know, went to dinner a lot and was at their homes and stuff. So I had the experience there.

[Assistant] In the homes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, we never did. We, in Nashville, we stayed in the dorms and at Kenya Science Teachers College we stayed in the dorms, so we never had that opportunity.

[Assistant] So you never had the chance?

[User] No. That was the one thing I wish we would have had. You know, I had, I did, was very close to my parents in the school. And I was, you know, went to dinner a lot and was at their homes and stuff. So I had the experience there.

[Assistant] In the homes.

[User] In the homes, but not necessarily living in a home and being part of a family. We didn't have that experience, which was a little bit different.

[Assistant] What was it like for you as it approached time to leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the homes, but not necessarily living in a home and being part of a family. We didn't have that experience, which was a little bit different.

[Assistant] What was it like for you as it approached time to leave?

[User] What was really important to me was that I left things in a place where the, the Kenyans could take over. It was very, very important to me. And I didn't want, I wanted to stay another year to ensure all of that. And I had been involved with a number of things. My counterparts were leaving and the friend of mine that had had the unfortunate experience left early. And she was also incredibly committed. Um. And I wanted to stay a little bit longer because everybody was leaving and everybody was leaving. But I also did know that we had done the training and we had left things in a good space. We actually built a building while we were there.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] You know, like a little admin building next to the church. So we had a little office and a bathroom.

[Assistant] Where did you get the funding?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What was really important to me was that I left things in a place where the, the Kenyans could take over. It was very, very important to me. And I didn't want, I wanted to stay another year to ensure all of that. And I had been involved with a number of things. My counterparts were leaving and the friend of mine that had had the unfortunate experience left early. And she was also incredibly committed. Um. And I wanted to stay a little bit longer because everybody was leaving and everybody was leaving. But I also did know that we had done the training and we had left things in a good space. We actually built a building while we were there.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] You know, like a little admin building next to the church. So we had a little office and a bathroom.

[Assistant] Where did you get the funding?

[User] This guy. This guy.

[Assistant] This same guy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, she was ready. She was ready. So.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] It was. I wanted to stay a little bit longer, at least six months. But it was also okay.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was okay to go. It was okay to go.

[Assistant] And what was it like when you got home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we traveled, three of us traveled on the way home to Poland and Russia.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So we spent about four weeks. And what happened when we were in Poland, uh, my colleagues went on to Ireland, and I was done. It was right before Christmas, and I wanted to go home. And the flights were canceled. And I had sent wires home to let my family know that, you know, the flight was canceled and I would be on another flight, which they never got.

[Assistant] Oh, dear.

[User] So they were panicked for a week and a half, going back and forth to every flight. I had no idea. You know, I had sent the telegram.

[Assistant] You'd let them know.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I went back and lived in Bethlehem for a while and stayed with my professor and his wife, who had both been volunteers, and did some substitute teaching. And then I did a, um, I taught gifted and talented kids, and I did this whole Africa program that I did on Africa and, you know, all these things I brought back, you know, the instruments and the pottery and all those kinds of things. But it was not, it was, it was very hard. It was very hard. I felt very alone. I didn't think I fit in. I didn't know, um. I knew I wasn't going back, but I didn't seem like I fit in here either.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And it was an adjustment. It was an adjustment. And when I work with younger volunteers now, people going over, I let them know that that's. Now it's a little easier because at least you have some connection and email and, you know, you can use more education going on. But at that time you were completely cut off and people's lives had moved on. And I had missed significant friends' weddings and babies and things like that. So it was, it was, um, it was hard.

[Assistant] It seems like also you had such a responsible job in the Peace Corps and then coming back, you were viewed as an unexperienced beginner.

[User] Exactly. Exactly.

[Assistant] And that would be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And yet, you know, you know, there was limited, limited interest. It was limited. And it took me, I finally did end up getting a teaching job up in upstate New York. Um. But it, and I took the experience and did, you know, workshops. I also did a big book drive with the New Jersey Returned Peace Corps Volunteers, and we sent two tons of books to Black South Africa to Chief Luthuli when he was looking for texts. We had to go through the textbooks and make sure there was no, you know, yards and feet and old history and all that kind of stuff.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So I kept involved with things like that, and I was very committed. I did these Read for Africa read-a-thons where I'd connect the teachers at the school with kids and they had like a pen pal. And they would, kids here would send them their favorite book. And then we raised, they did a read-a-thon. So we raised money to send books to the kids. So things like that. I stayed pretty, pretty engaged and involved in those kinds of projects for quite a long time.

[Assistant] Yeah, good.

[User] For quite a while so.

[Assistant] Is there something you'd like to tell people about Peace Corps or your experience that you think is particularly important for folks to know?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nobody really knew what to do, and it was sort of invented in real time. If the system had been done as we would do it today, that is, someone from NASA was going to write out the requirements, detailed requirements, they wouldn't have been able to do that. We had one requirement: take man to the Moon and bring him home safely. That was our requirement. Detailed requirements had to come as we better understood [the problems].\n\n We were able to make decisions without consulting a lot of people. I remember when Ray Alonzo was responsible for the core-rope memory. He and Hal Laning were the two key people who developed that core-rope memory. I remember Ray stopping me in the hall one time and he said, "Hey, I've got a great idea of how to communicate with this computer." The noun-verb communication, the design of the display panel and the keyboard, he just showed me this. He said, "What do you think of this?"\n\n And I looked at it and said, "Well, it sounds good."\n\n Today you'd have to have a big committee, and they would have to go through every [decision]…"Have we considered this way of doing it versus that way?" [To] get forty people in the room and try to get them all to agree on some design. It never would have happened.

[Assistant] You mentioned, or used the term "handful," there were a handful of you [working on the Mars probe]…at MIT [before Apollo]. How many?

[User] No more than five. Less than five.

[Assistant] And your communication was continuous.

[User] We were working in the same building, in the same space, so we didn't have to keep elaborate records or memos. Everybody knew what everybody else was doing. We just did what was necessary.

[Assistant] A lot of long hours. Were there a lot of long days or did you try to stay on—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No more than five. Less than five.

[Assistant] And your communication was continuous.

[User] We were working in the same building, in the same space, so we didn't have to keep elaborate records or memos. Everybody knew what everybody else was doing. We just did what was necessary.

[Assistant] A lot of long hours. Were there a lot of long days or did you try to stay on—

[User] As a matter of fact, in those days I was very discouraged, because it didn't look [as if] we were [n]ever going to be doing anything except little studies that nobody was going to really fund us to do something real, so it was sort of hard to keep your interests up. We didn't really have much of a schedule. We'd get an idea, we'd work on it. It was kind of depressing, until all of a sudden, wow, we're going to…[the moon]. Then that became even more depressing, because here we were given this enormous job and we didn't know how to do it. [Laughter] And certainly nobody thought that we could do it in the time schedule that [President John F.] Kennedy was talking about.

[Assistant] When you heard the announcement from him, what were your thoughts when you first heard this, before you found out you were going to be—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Were you together with the rest of your group?

[User] Oh, yes, we were all sitting there. Well, when they were in orbit around the Moon on Christmas Eve, it was late in the evening, and I sat in my den [at home], I was on the radio, sort of a talk show, people calling up and asking about—I can't remember a single question they asked, but I do remember that I was on the radio trying to explain what was going on with these guys in lunar orbit. It was Christmas Eve and it was probably midnight, one o'clock in the morning, I was still on the radio. Everybody at the house was asleep.

[Assistant] I guess what a present to you and your whole team to know that—

[User] That it worked.

[Assistant] —everything was exactly how you wanted it to be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes, we were all sitting there. Well, when they were in orbit around the Moon on Christmas Eve, it was late in the evening, and I sat in my den [at home], I was on the radio, sort of a talk show, people calling up and asking about—I can't remember a single question they asked, but I do remember that I was on the radio trying to explain what was going on with these guys in lunar orbit. It was Christmas Eve and it was probably midnight, one o'clock in the morning, I was still on the radio. Everybody at the house was asleep.

[Assistant] I guess what a present to you and your whole team to know that—

[User] That it worked.

[Assistant] —everything was exactly how you wanted it to be.

[User] But then we had the big worry about when it's time to come home, we've got to burn that rocket behind the Moon. We hope it works, because all the anxieties again, if it doesn't, we'll never see them again, or the whole thing could blow up. But, of course, it didn't.

[Assistant] More smiles for everybody.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That it worked.

[Assistant] —everything was exactly how you wanted it to be.

[User] But then we had the big worry about when it's time to come home, we've got to burn that rocket behind the Moon. We hope it works, because all the anxieties again, if it doesn't, we'll never see them again, or the whole thing could blow up. But, of course, it didn't.

[Assistant] More smiles for everybody.

[User] As I say, that was really the most exciting mission for a lot of us, primarily because nobody had ever been that far away from the Earth before. …[We]'d sent people into Earth orbit, but you'd never sent them out to where they could have a very reasonable probability of becoming a solar satellite and never coming home, ever.

[Assistant] When you started your project, so many unknowns was the only thing that was known. Everybody was still making decisions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But then we had the big worry about when it's time to come home, we've got to burn that rocket behind the Moon. We hope it works, because all the anxieties again, if it doesn't, we'll never see them again, or the whole thing could blow up. But, of course, it didn't.

[Assistant] More smiles for everybody.

[User] As I say, that was really the most exciting mission for a lot of us, primarily because nobody had ever been that far away from the Earth before. …[We]'d sent people into Earth orbit, but you'd never sent them out to where they could have a very reasonable probability of becoming a solar satellite and never coming home, ever.

[Assistant] When you started your project, so many unknowns was the only thing that was known. Everybody was still making decisions.

[User] As a matter of fact, one of the things we didn't know was whether you could land on the Moon without sinking into the dust. There was a great concern. We had someone from NASA explaining to us that the Moon probably had ten feet of dust and you try to land on it, you'd sink in there and you'd never get out. Well, that's a pretty serious thing to worry about. But they were able to—actually, I think they were able to track some of the unmanned landers and actually see them on the Moon, and they weren't buried.

[Assistant] Of course, 8 moved into 9, and more decisions were being made. Tell us how those decisions were affecting what you were doing at the laboratory.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. We learned to operate in a big system, and…this was a new experience for the laboratory. They'd never had to do that before. In fact, there were people at MIT who didn't think we ought to be doing that either. We're a research outfit. Why are we involved with all these picayune daily little problems? Fortunately, their voices were not listened to. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Were your offices right in the midst of MIT complex?

[User] Actually, we had a special building. We didn't have enough room in the regular laboratory. We had to find a place, and they found a building on Memorial Drive, right on the river, which was actually a warehouse for underwear. [Laughter] And we took over that building and refurbished it, nothing dramatic, we just partitioned it off into useable space and we all lived there. The building is gone now. It's been replaced by expensive condos, highrise condos, that no one could afford to buy anymore. But our building…is gone and the space doesn't exist anymore.

[Assistant] You mentioned that on Apollo 8 you were here in your home.

[User] Well, I was that night, yes…\n\n I did go to a couple of the launches. Went to the Apollo 11 launch. I think that was the first one I saw. And then I went to Houston for the landing, so I was there.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that experience?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually, we had a special building. We didn't have enough room in the regular laboratory. We had to find a place, and they found a building on Memorial Drive, right on the river, which was actually a warehouse for underwear. [Laughter] And we took over that building and refurbished it, nothing dramatic, we just partitioned it off into useable space and we all lived there. The building is gone now. It's been replaced by expensive condos, highrise condos, that no one could afford to buy anymore. But our building…is gone and the space doesn't exist anymore.

[Assistant] You mentioned that on Apollo 8 you were here in your home.

[User] Well, I was that night, yes…\n\n I did go to a couple of the launches. Went to the Apollo 11 launch. I think that was the first one I saw. And then I went to Houston for the landing, so I was there.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that experience?

[User] Which one, the launch?

[Assistant] Both, you know, because it was kind of the beginning and the middle of that, so—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I'd never been to a launch before, and so the whole atmosphere was strange. There were lots of people there, and the best place to be was just standing on the ground, where I took up a spot. I remember when it was all over, the grandstands, there were a bunch of people congregated around one particular person who was in the grandstand. I didn't know who that was, but it was—Carson.

[Assistant] Johnny Carson?

[User] Johnny Carson. [Laughter] So the people were more interested in him than they were in the mission. [Laughter] The Vice President was there, Spiro [T.] Agnew, and [it] turned out that Spiro Agnew and I had one thing in common, we both went to the same high school.

[Assistant] Oh!

[User] But we didn't overlap. He was there and gone by the time I arrived, and, of course, Spiro Agnew left [office] in humiliation. But he made a little speech right after Apollo 11 that NASA was now going to start planning a manned mission to Mars, and I thought, "Wow! Great." And, of course, we didn't.

[Assistant] Were you there a few days before you came to Houston, or did you come—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was not our problem. We knew how to [use] the software…[for] a docking program. The thing that [NASA] had to worry about was the two vehicles and building a coupling unit… But that wasn't any problem that we could contribute to. We didn't have anything to say about it or worry about it. Whatever they chose, our docking program would be the one you would use, and we've been doing docking for many years. It was not a major problem for us; it was just a general overall sadness that, well, that's it. End of a big era.

[Assistant] As it was announced that Apollo 17 would be the last and then, of course, you had Skylab and ASTP, did you find your responsibilities starting to move to a different direction with MIT?

[User] Well, you mean my particular ones?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Actually, you know…we started to reorganize, and instead of an Apollo group, they talked about a NASA group and somebody to run the NASA group. There was a brief instant there whe[n] I thought, gee, I'd like to have that job. Then I thought, no, I really don't want [to do] that job. I think Bill Tindall said, "Battin shouldn't do that." And I felt very unhappy. Why not? I mean, that looked like a nice promotion. But then Al Hill said—I don't mean to be boastful, but he said, "You are a great technical contributor. You get ideas. You do things. It would be a waste to have you running a big NASA segment of the laboratory." So they made me the associate head of the NASA [programs]… When it happened, I felt disappointed. Then I realized that the last thing I really wanted to do was to be the head of that group, so I was the associate NASA head, and that was [fine].

[Assistant] How did teaching enter into your career with MIT? When did that begin?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. I mean, they all left before they were astronauts.

[Assistant] Did their roles as astronauts bring them back to MIT at any time during the program?

[User] Oh, sure…they all came back. We kept training astronauts throughout [Apollo]—from the very beginning. We didn't do any of the Mercury or Gemini. We didn't have those people [for] training. I do remember we had all of the Mercury 7 astronauts [come] to visit the laboratory on the same day, and that was a circus. [Laughter] Somehow or other they divided everybody who was in the Apollo Program…into seven groups. …Each group would go out to lunch with a particular astronaut, and one of the astronauts didn't finish his sandwich, and so somebody in the group grabbed the sandwich and had it encased in plastic. [Laughter] This is the uneaten sandwich that—I forget who it was. Maybe it was John Glenn's sandwich. But, as I say, it was really a circus.\n\n After that, when the Apollo astronauts came, it was pretty routine. Nobody paid much attention.

[Assistant] I guess in the case of Scott, Aldrin, and Mitchell, they were never far from your class if they were coming back to MIT for training and you were there.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And you mentioned you continue to teach today. In the same class, or have you added more to your schedule?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, actually, they built a new building, which is 555 Technology Square, where the lab is now. It expanded beyond that, and they acquired another building which is across the street. It's now called the Hill Building. But it still was a short walk to MIT. My relation didn't change. I mean, I continued teaching my course. They wanted to maintain the contact with students. There were always MIT students working at the Draper Laboratory and doing theses at the laboratory, and they wanted that to continue. I was always teaching my course. They wanted that to continue. It was just the administration and removing MIT from any control [over] what the laboratory was going to work on.

[Assistant] Do you still do work for the laboratory or did you—

[User] Now?

[Assistant] —end that relationship?

[User] No, I retired from the lab in 1987. I told the [MIT] department head, I said, "Instead of paying [the lab] for my time to teach my course, why don't I just continue teaching…and you pay me instead of them?" They said, "Fine." [Laughter] So that's the relation I've had ever since. They pay me for roughly 20 percent of a full-time [professor] and I teach [my course in astrodynamics].

[Assistant] Do you still travel and do seminars and symposiums as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now?

[Assistant] —end that relationship?

[User] No, I retired from the lab in 1987. I told the [MIT] department head, I said, "Instead of paying [the lab] for my time to teach my course, why don't I just continue teaching…and you pay me instead of them?" They said, "Fine." [Laughter] So that's the relation I've had ever since. They pay me for roughly 20 percent of a full-time [professor] and I teach [my course in astrodynamics].

[Assistant] Do you still travel and do seminars and symposiums as well?

[User] Only under rare circumstances. I did "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon" …but that was paid for by [the AIAA]. But I don't have any travel funds. If I go on a trip, if I go to an international congress, I pay my own way. I don't do any consulting. I don't want to do any consulting. All I want to do is teach my course and the rest of the time do what I want to do.

[Assistant] A good plan. Good plan. You were recently in Texas for an event at Texas A&M University. Tell us about that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. [Laughter]

[Assistant] As a researcher and a teacher, inventor, creator of all sorts that have impacted history. Did you ever in your wildest ideas as a young boy—

[User] No.

[Assistant] —think that you would be—

[User] No, no… The only thing I [knew about space] was the Buck Rogers comic strip. Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, I enjoyed that. But I had no idea that we would ever actually do what we did, landing on the Moon. The last thing I would have thought is that I would have had anything to do with it. [Laughter] …But no one, no one planned for that. No one in my generation grew up saying, "I want to work on space flight," because the only thing you could reasonably have said, "I want to grow up and be an astronomer." You would not have been thinking about flying anything. That was just not possible, or if it was possible, you'd have to wait five centuries before you'd ever see it.

[Assistant] All the systems that you designed, did you have any desire to see how well they worked in the spacecraft? Did you want to be part of the crew?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no… The only thing I [knew about space] was the Buck Rogers comic strip. Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, I enjoyed that. But I had no idea that we would ever actually do what we did, landing on the Moon. The last thing I would have thought is that I would have had anything to do with it. [Laughter] …But no one, no one planned for that. No one in my generation grew up saying, "I want to work on space flight," because the only thing you could reasonably have said, "I want to grow up and be an astronomer." You would not have been thinking about flying anything. That was just not possible, or if it was possible, you'd have to wait five centuries before you'd ever see it.

[Assistant] All the systems that you designed, did you have any desire to see how well they worked in the spacecraft? Did you want to be part of the crew?

[User] Did I ever want to do it? You mean be on the crew?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] No. I don't even like to ride in roller coasters, much less do that. No, I have never had any ambition at all to ride in the space vehicles. I wouldn't like it even if they could guarantee me a safe return.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly have made such an impact on making sure others have had a safe return, and as we come to a close today, are there other areas, is there any other things that you would like to add here at the end that we haven't had a chance to talk about?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Did I ever want to do it? You mean be on the crew?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] No. I don't even like to ride in roller coasters, much less do that. No, I have never had any ambition at all to ride in the space vehicles. I wouldn't like it even if they could guarantee me a safe return.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly have made such an impact on making sure others have had a safe return, and as we come to a close today, are there other areas, is there any other things that you would like to add here at the end that we haven't had a chance to talk about?

[User] Don't think so. I think I'm all talked out. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I certainly appreciate your time, and I look forward to sending your package to you for your review, and then hearing from you again.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. I don't even like to ride in roller coasters, much less do that. No, I have never had any ambition at all to ride in the space vehicles. I wouldn't like it even if they could guarantee me a safe return.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly have made such an impact on making sure others have had a safe return, and as we come to a close today, are there other areas, is there any other things that you would like to add here at the end that we haven't had a chance to talk about?

[User] Don't think so. I think I'm all talked out. [Laughter]

[Assistant] I certainly appreciate your time, and I look forward to sending your package to you for your review, and then hearing from you again.

[User] I wonder what it's going to look like when I see it in print. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Just as wonderful as I heard it. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay, I was born in Illinois in 1943. Two years later, my family moved to Batavia, Illinois, and I went through the entire public school system from kindergarten to senior year of high school; went to Knox College in Galesburg, Illinois for a Master's degree. Then on to the University of Chicago and left with, well, the Bachelor’s degree was from Knox College, the Master’s degree was from the University of Chicago. I left only with a Master’s degree, taught at Wilberforce University, in Wilberforce Ohio, a black college, for two years. Went back to the University of Chicago, finished up everything except for the dissertation. Got married, my wife, Claire, and I moved to Washington, DC. I had a dissertation fellowship that first year, and then got a job with a Congressman elect, Tim L. Hall. I served as a legislative assistant, and during that time finished my PhD. Tim was not re-elected, and in September of 1977 I joined the staff for the Office of Presidential Libraries here in the National Archives Building.

[Assistant] What was your PhD in?

[User] American History.

[Assistant] And what was your dissertation?

[User] Dissertation was Black Americans and Haiti, Virgin Islands, Ethiopia, and Liberia, 1929-1936. Essentially, it was a seminar paper; it started as a seminar with Akira Iriye.

[Assistant] [Interposing] That's so interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] American History.

[Assistant] And what was your dissertation?

[User] Dissertation was Black Americans and Haiti, Virgin Islands, Ethiopia, and Liberia, 1929-1936. Essentially, it was a seminar paper; it started as a seminar with Akira Iriye.

[Assistant] [Interposing] That's so interesting.

[User] And then became the all the discarded seminar paper topics, so John Hope Franklin was my real mentor at the University of Chicago. But Akira Iriye was the first reader and John the second.

[Assistant] So what positions have you held here at the Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, in a minor, minor way, the fact that the legislative archives as a separate color code, not blue or not orange since when—

[Assistant] [Interposing] But what do those colors mean?

[User] Well, I think blue means east side, so when we were talking about the staff who man the research room, I think it's military records have blue and civilian records have orange so that the staff can readily tell which place to put the records are being pulled, and the Center was initially part of one or the other and I basically said, no, we should have our own color. So that's in a very, very minor way. I have an article on using the Congressional Serial Set for the Study of Western History. And in effect that article is something that I pass out periodically to researchers, because if you can understand how the Serial Set can be used for the study of Western history you can understand how the serial set can be used for the study of any aspect of American history, and although in this current day and age, since it was written before computers became the widespread phenomena that they are today, knowing how to use the volume-finding aids was important, and oddly it's still important because, sure, you can Google terms, but if you don’t know what the sum universe is of what there is out there, it's not as good as simply Googling to see what is out here.

[Assistant] If you don’t mind, that transitions perfectly into my next question, which is, Can you speak to technological changes over time?

[User] The computer is clearly the main change. You know, I once remember hearing a discussion, Mel with somebody else. You know, Mel was head of diplomatic records and you know he basically said the day will come when everyone will have a computer on their desk, and somebody else thought that was outrageously fantastic thinking, whereas now the great majority of the people in the agency carry their own computer with them in the form of their telephone.

[Assistant] And how does that influence your daily activities?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The computer is clearly the main change. You know, I once remember hearing a discussion, Mel with somebody else. You know, Mel was head of diplomatic records and you know he basically said the day will come when everyone will have a computer on their desk, and somebody else thought that was outrageously fantastic thinking, whereas now the great majority of the people in the agency carry their own computer with them in the form of their telephone.

[Assistant] And how does that influence your daily activities?

[User] Increasingly, being able to find locations through the computer-based location guide becomes increasingly important, and being able to basically Google internal information about particular kinds of records to see what might show up really opens a whole new area. You know the whole notion of Googling is just so phenomenal that today somebody sent an email saying, “I'd like to have the transcripts of Senator Irvin’s Watergate records, and so basically what he was asking for was the 25 or so books of printed hearings that the Irving committee in 1973 or ‘74 held and were published. The organization known as the HathiTrust has put all those volumes online, so it's incredible that I can send an email with a link to the HathiTrust site and say, “Here it is.”

[Assistant] More broadly speaking, what other changes have you experienced over time at NARA?

[User] Well, I think partly in that same focus, there's an effort to do more with less so that subject experts, and to some extent I would classify myself as such, are increasingly less valued in the agency, because the focus is on everyone being their own archivist, online access, direct online access to archival materials, and given the sometimes arcane way that the records are organized, one really needs to understand the preliminary inventories. And George Scaboo was Robert Warner's deputy and his object was a kind of “have gun will travel” approach for archivists. There should be finding aids available for archivists and anyone should be able to use the finding aids. And that may work in theory, but it has limitations in practice.

[Assistant] Can you evaluate the impact of the transition from more specialized experts to everyone being their own archivist?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Increasingly, being able to find locations through the computer-based location guide becomes increasingly important, and being able to basically Google internal information about particular kinds of records to see what might show up really opens a whole new area. You know the whole notion of Googling is just so phenomenal that today somebody sent an email saying, “I'd like to have the transcripts of Senator Irvin’s Watergate records, and so basically what he was asking for was the 25 or so books of printed hearings that the Irving committee in 1973 or ‘74 held and were published. The organization known as the HathiTrust has put all those volumes online, so it's incredible that I can send an email with a link to the HathiTrust site and say, “Here it is.”

[Assistant] More broadly speaking, what other changes have you experienced over time at NARA?

[User] Well, I think partly in that same focus, there's an effort to do more with less so that subject experts, and to some extent I would classify myself as such, are increasingly less valued in the agency, because the focus is on everyone being their own archivist, online access, direct online access to archival materials, and given the sometimes arcane way that the records are organized, one really needs to understand the preliminary inventories. And George Scaboo was Robert Warner's deputy and his object was a kind of “have gun will travel” approach for archivists. There should be finding aids available for archivists and anyone should be able to use the finding aids. And that may work in theory, but it has limitations in practice.

[Assistant] Can you evaluate the impact of the transition from more specialized experts to everyone being their own archivist?

[User] Well, good and bad. Good in the sense that the technological revolution opens wonderful possibilities, and good in the sense that, if there's basically less money to do more, it's a way that, outwardly, work can be accomplished. I'm not alone in thinking about whether the quality of exchange suffers, but you can't have everything.

[Assistant] Could you speak to your interactions with other Federal agencies through the National Archives?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So, I grew up in the 1950s. I well remember the 1960 election that Richard Nixon lost, so basically Richard Nixon is not a distant historical figure but rather almost a contemporary, and I find it a little bit ironic that I've not only worked with the materials that were seized, the Presidential recording, the Nixon tapes were about to be returned to President Nixon and Congress stepped in and said, no, these will be seized by the Federal Government, so I worked with that collection, primarily with the tapes.

[Assistant] When did you work with them?

[User] If I started in 1977, this would probably be ‘78/’79, so the tapes went through several renderings of what could be released—primarily if it was personal information it was not; and if Nixon is speaking as head of the Republican party, is that a private consideration as opposed to his speaking as president of the United States? So, I find it a little bit ironic that I've ended up working with the White House materials as well as the Congressional materials that it involved the investigation so—

[Assistant] [Interposing] What was it like to work with those tapes? What were they like?

[User] It was exhilarating. About that same time the National Archives had listening stations that were set up in room 204 for public hearing of those tapes that had been played in general conversation, those court-related instances.

[Assistant] Now are those tapes transferred to the Nixon library now or are they still here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If I started in 1977, this would probably be ‘78/’79, so the tapes went through several renderings of what could be released—primarily if it was personal information it was not; and if Nixon is speaking as head of the Republican party, is that a private consideration as opposed to his speaking as president of the United States? So, I find it a little bit ironic that I've ended up working with the White House materials as well as the Congressional materials that it involved the investigation so—

[Assistant] [Interposing] What was it like to work with those tapes? What were they like?

[User] It was exhilarating. About that same time the National Archives had listening stations that were set up in room 204 for public hearing of those tapes that had been played in general conversation, those court-related instances.

[Assistant] Now are those tapes transferred to the Nixon library now or are they still here?

[User] There is still a Nixon tapes project here, but the great bulk of the tapes have now been released to the general public, and I'm not sure whether they're downloadable audio, I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be for the access form of the great bulk of the recordings. One of the highlights of sorts, at least in meeting celebrities, was working ever so briefly with John Dean. You're too young to remember John Dean.

[Assistant] I don't remember him, but I can picture him. I know who John Dean is.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was exhilarating. About that same time the National Archives had listening stations that were set up in room 204 for public hearing of those tapes that had been played in general conversation, those court-related instances.

[Assistant] Now are those tapes transferred to the Nixon library now or are they still here?

[User] There is still a Nixon tapes project here, but the great bulk of the tapes have now been released to the general public, and I'm not sure whether they're downloadable audio, I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be for the access form of the great bulk of the recordings. One of the highlights of sorts, at least in meeting celebrities, was working ever so briefly with John Dean. You're too young to remember John Dean.

[Assistant] I don't remember him, but I can picture him. I know who John Dean is.

[User] Okay. So, I get this call one day, “This is John Dean.” The John Dean. There was a lawsuit that he was involved with, furnished some records that he reviewed in the central search room. I remember a colleague basically coming just so that she could pretend to be doing something else just so that she could see who John Dean was. So, I'm not sure whether that answers your questions of working with Nixon-related materials.

[Assistant] I guess I want to know more specifically about that transition from the Nixon tapes being government property and private to them becoming essentially public domain.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. So, I get this call one day, “This is John Dean.” The John Dean. There was a lawsuit that he was involved with, furnished some records that he reviewed in the central search room. I remember a colleague basically coming just so that she could pretend to be doing something else just so that she could see who John Dean was. So, I'm not sure whether that answers your questions of working with Nixon-related materials.

[Assistant] I guess I want to know more specifically about that transition from the Nixon tapes being government property and private to them becoming essentially public domain.

[User] Well the legislation basically that seized the materials said that it would be the property of the Federal Government, so shortly, some years later, there was the Presidential Materials Act. So Presidential materials from George Washington until that Nixon episode were always considered the private property of the particular President, so the whole notion of Presidential Libraries comes from FDR saying, under the right circumstances, “I donate to people all of these records and things” and that was the beginning of the FDR library, of the Presidential Library system, as Truman was leaving the White House. No, I guess it was as Eisenhower leaving the White House. There was legislation to set up an Office of Presidential Libraries, and it was thought there would be the Truman Library and there would be the Eisenhower Library, and then Herbert Hoover took advantage of the provision to have his Presidential library. So, the Nixon materials were here in Washington. Eventually the Federal Government, the National Archives, reached an agreement with the Nixon foundation that had a research facility and museum in southern California not terribly far from Disneyworld.

[Assistant] [interposing] Disneyland.

[User] Yeah, Disneyland. Actually, I visited it a couple of years ago with my younger sister and her husband, so basically that entity came under the domain of National Archives, although the Foundation and the Archives continued to have an unsteady relationship, so basically the tapes were seized and the Federal Government opened up the seized materials.

[Assistant] Okay. You mentioned a jurisdiction dispute when you were a White House liaison during the Reagan administration. Can you explain what that was?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'm very glad that I've had the opportunity to have the career that I have had. As I said, it was the ability to use training in American history with interesting teaching and working with wonderfully intrinsic materials to have an enrichment for myself in terms of fulfillment of my potential, and I do believe in making a contribution both to the people that I’ve worked with and through them, through the greater community. So I realize you’re close to ending, though ironically one of those fortuitous events involved the TV personality Cokie Roberts. So notwithstanding her position, she had simply come into the finding aids room to ask if an archivist with legislative records could come by to talk with her, and I was the one who ambled down—

[Assistant] [Interposing] I love her books.

[User] Well, subsequently I was able to put her in touch with other people, the Lincoln project, Kathy Jacob at Radford, Keith Melder, who had done a key paper on one of the women who she later used in her Capital Dames.

[Assistant] Great book.

[User] So, I was taken with her acknowledgment and taken with the acknowledgment of my sister- in-law’s mother, who's a Holocaust survivor who in the preface to her self-published memoir, a promise kept other women in the concentration camp: one of us needs to survive to tell our story. So, in her introduction, in her acknowledgments, you know, Joyce Wagner credited me with doing the first oral history interview that she did in basically opening the floodgates in remembrance.

[Assistant] You've mentioned a few, including that one, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to share any other interesting or useful anecdotes that may have not come up in my questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, subsequently I was able to put her in touch with other people, the Lincoln project, Kathy Jacob at Radford, Keith Melder, who had done a key paper on one of the women who she later used in her Capital Dames.

[Assistant] Great book.

[User] So, I was taken with her acknowledgment and taken with the acknowledgment of my sister- in-law’s mother, who's a Holocaust survivor who in the preface to her self-published memoir, a promise kept other women in the concentration camp: one of us needs to survive to tell our story. So, in her introduction, in her acknowledgments, you know, Joyce Wagner credited me with doing the first oral history interview that she did in basically opening the floodgates in remembrance.

[Assistant] You've mentioned a few, including that one, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to share any other interesting or useful anecdotes that may have not come up in my questions.

[User] I think that since I don't have a list of anecdotes, undoubtedly after this tape is over I'll think, Oh yeah, there was the time that—

[Assistant] [Interposing] You can always email me, and thank you for sharing the ones that you did. My last question is, what words of wisdom do you have from your time at NARA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, never. I worked for NASA for 33 years and I think SETI was shut out of NASA before I even got there. SETI is not a good way to search for life. Again, the universe is 13 billion years old. We’ve had radio communications for 100 years. That’s 102 versus 109. If this were the length of time that the universe had been around, the time that we’ve had radio is like a micron in that timeline. What are the odds that we’re going to be pointing at the right star at the right time? Is it worth trying? Of course. Is it worth spending billions of dollars? No.

[Assistant] You mentioned the Next Generation Telescope. That’s the one that became the James Webb [Space Telescope].

[User] Yes, Sean O’Keefe named it that.

[Assistant] Its beginnings were during that time you were at Headquarters?

[User] Yes, that’s the time I called John [C.] Mather, the [JWST] project scientist who tells a story of the day he was in his office and he got a phone call from yours truly saying, “Hey, I’ve got a couple hundred thousand dollars leftover end-of-the-year money. Could you start a study at [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland], and get some outside scientists together and look at the possibilities of a Next Generation Space Telescope?”\n\n He said, “Yes, I got nothing better to do,” and the rest is history. He tells that story so well.

[Assistant] Yes, he actually told it to us in an interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, Sean O’Keefe named it that.

[Assistant] Its beginnings were during that time you were at Headquarters?

[User] Yes, that’s the time I called John [C.] Mather, the [JWST] project scientist who tells a story of the day he was in his office and he got a phone call from yours truly saying, “Hey, I’ve got a couple hundred thousand dollars leftover end-of-the-year money. Could you start a study at [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland], and get some outside scientists together and look at the possibilities of a Next Generation Space Telescope?”\n\n He said, “Yes, I got nothing better to do,” and the rest is history. He tells that story so well.

[Assistant] Yes, he actually told it to us in an interview.

[User] It’s true, I’m glad I confirmed it.

[Assistant] Are there other missions during that two-year period when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that’s the time I called John [C.] Mather, the [JWST] project scientist who tells a story of the day he was in his office and he got a phone call from yours truly saying, “Hey, I’ve got a couple hundred thousand dollars leftover end-of-the-year money. Could you start a study at [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland], and get some outside scientists together and look at the possibilities of a Next Generation Space Telescope?”\n\n He said, “Yes, I got nothing better to do,” and the rest is history. He tells that story so well.

[Assistant] Yes, he actually told it to us in an interview.

[User] It’s true, I’m glad I confirmed it.

[Assistant] Are there other missions during that two-year period when you were there?

[User] We got the Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer [FUSE]. That was just an explorer, but we got that started. We got the Space Interferometry Mission [SIM] going, but it eventually just cost too much money and didn’t compete well. SIRTF [Space Infrared Telescope Facility, now Spitzer Space Telescope] got going very well, it got a lot of technology done.\n\n Trying to think of any other missions. NGST [Next Generation Space Telescope] was really the big one. SIRTF was, of course, much closer to launch, but getting it sold to Congress was important, and we did a lot of that groundwork then. Those were the three missions I remember specifically.\n\n You can tell somebody’s been around a long time because they still call Spitzer “SIRTF,” or Hubble “Space Telescope.” Or Chandra [X-ray Observatory] I guess it is, it’s AXAF [Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility] to me. GRO [Gamma Ray Observatory] is the Compton [Gamma Ray Observatory].

[Assistant] You’ll have to forgive me if I call them the wrong things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s true, I’m glad I confirmed it.

[Assistant] Are there other missions during that two-year period when you were there?

[User] We got the Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer [FUSE]. That was just an explorer, but we got that started. We got the Space Interferometry Mission [SIM] going, but it eventually just cost too much money and didn’t compete well. SIRTF [Space Infrared Telescope Facility, now Spitzer Space Telescope] got going very well, it got a lot of technology done.\n\n Trying to think of any other missions. NGST [Next Generation Space Telescope] was really the big one. SIRTF was, of course, much closer to launch, but getting it sold to Congress was important, and we did a lot of that groundwork then. Those were the three missions I remember specifically.\n\n You can tell somebody’s been around a long time because they still call Spitzer “SIRTF,” or Hubble “Space Telescope.” Or Chandra [X-ray Observatory] I guess it is, it’s AXAF [Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility] to me. GRO [Gamma Ray Observatory] is the Compton [Gamma Ray Observatory].

[Assistant] You’ll have to forgive me if I call them the wrong things.

[User] That’s all right, it took me a long time to call it Hubble. It was always Space Telescope when I was growing up.

[Assistant] In 1998 you became the Associate Administrator.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We got the Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer [FUSE]. That was just an explorer, but we got that started. We got the Space Interferometry Mission [SIM] going, but it eventually just cost too much money and didn’t compete well. SIRTF [Space Infrared Telescope Facility, now Spitzer Space Telescope] got going very well, it got a lot of technology done.\n\n Trying to think of any other missions. NGST [Next Generation Space Telescope] was really the big one. SIRTF was, of course, much closer to launch, but getting it sold to Congress was important, and we did a lot of that groundwork then. Those were the three missions I remember specifically.\n\n You can tell somebody’s been around a long time because they still call Spitzer “SIRTF,” or Hubble “Space Telescope.” Or Chandra [X-ray Observatory] I guess it is, it’s AXAF [Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility] to me. GRO [Gamma Ray Observatory] is the Compton [Gamma Ray Observatory].

[Assistant] You’ll have to forgive me if I call them the wrong things.

[User] That’s all right, it took me a long time to call it Hubble. It was always Space Telescope when I was growing up.

[Assistant] In 1998 you became the Associate Administrator.

[User] Yes. Wes Huntress came to me, in August I believe it was, and asked me. He had talked to [NASA Administrator] Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin, and Dan said he would accept me as AA. I said, “Thank you very much, not in a million years.” Then they started doing searches. I saw the kind of people they were talking to, and I asked myself, “Do I really want—?”\n\n Wes said, “We’ll expect you to work with them and train them, because you’re the most senior.” It got to me.\n\n About September, Labor Day or so, I called up Dan Goldin. He was on the NASA jet going somewhere. I said, “Hey Dan, I’ll do it, I’ll take the job.”

[Assistant] What made you change your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s all right, it took me a long time to call it Hubble. It was always Space Telescope when I was growing up.

[Assistant] In 1998 you became the Associate Administrator.

[User] Yes. Wes Huntress came to me, in August I believe it was, and asked me. He had talked to [NASA Administrator] Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin, and Dan said he would accept me as AA. I said, “Thank you very much, not in a million years.” Then they started doing searches. I saw the kind of people they were talking to, and I asked myself, “Do I really want—?”\n\n Wes said, “We’ll expect you to work with them and train them, because you’re the most senior.” It got to me.\n\n About September, Labor Day or so, I called up Dan Goldin. He was on the NASA jet going somewhere. I said, “Hey Dan, I’ll do it, I’ll take the job.”

[Assistant] What made you change your mind?

[User] I didn’t want to have to train somebody else to do a job I was probably better capable of doing.

[Assistant] In the last interview, you mentioned that one of the first things you did after becoming Associate Administrator was going to [NASA] KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] for the launches of the Mars Climate Orbiter [launched December 1998] and the Mars Polar Lander [launched January 1999].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the library. “What’s a library? What’s a book? Paper? You mean you had books made out of paper?”

[Assistant] You mentioned the technology transfer and the different things that NASA has done for the world. A lot of times people don’t even realize that that technology is thanks to NASA.

[User] Hubble—I hope somebody told you about stereotactic breast biopsy.

[Assistant] Go ahead and talk about that.

[User] People at Goddard could tell you about it, this was back in the mid ’90s. These CCDs for Hubble were found by some doctors to be sensitive to soft X-rays. Before they came out, if you had a tumor or something they had to use an X-ray, which was dangerous of course. Then to do the biopsy they’d have to be very invasive with a scalpel, and you’re in the hospital overnight. I’m talking about 20 years ago.\n\n But then the stereotactic system came out. In real time, instead of using X-ray film they could use one of these live X-ray detectors. They could guide in a tiny little needle into the tumor and do the biopsy almost noninvasively. The woman comes in, walks out the same day. It’s just made a huge difference.\n\n [Memorial] Sloan Kettering [Cancer Center] was the one that pioneered this up in New York [City, New York]. There are people at Goddard and the Hubble project that are probably still around who could tell you about it, but there’s a bunch of stuff written on it. If you Google Sloan Kettering, CCDs, and stereotactic breast biopsy you could probably find out.\n\n Almost nobody knows about that. That came right out of the Hubble CCD program. In fact, it was CCDs made for STIS, the Space Telescope Imaging Spectrograph. The specific CCDs for that instrument—the company that made the CCDs is in California. It spun off into the stereotactic system.

[Assistant] Like you said, there’s a lot of things like that. It’s interesting when you think about all the advances. Why don’t people know these things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Then it goes right by them, day after that. They call it the news cycle.

[Assistant] Let’s talk about what you feel is the relevance of the Science Mission Directorate. It’s important that NASA continues work in this direction, but why do you feel it’s important? I know it sounds like a simplistic question.

[User] It’s not. It’s especially relevant today because I read a lot of—excuse the expression—crap out in the media about, “Well, we don’t really need the government supporting science because commercial companies, private donors, they love science. They’ll do it if the government doesn’t do it.” What universe do you live in? Last time I checked, people are out for the bloody dollar. They want to make a profit.\n\n Hubble is a classic example. Anybody, whether they make $100 million a year or 10 cents a year, can get on the internet and download any picture of the universe ever taken by Hubble for free. Tell me what commercial company is going to invest $10 billion launching a Hubble and then charge nothing for the data. What universe do you live in? That’s not the Donald [J.] Trump America I know.\n\n Let me put it this way. If NASA doesn’t do it, nobody’s going to do it. Just not going to happen. That’s not what capitalism is all about. I’m not a communist, capitalism is good for some things. But when it comes to science and art and things that don’t make money, you better have government do it. Just the way I feel.

[Assistant] Part of having the government do it is of course it takes funding. You spent some of your time testifying before Congress members and talking to congressional staffers. You had relationships with some of them, like Barbara [A.] Mikulski [senator from Maryland].

[User] Senator Babs, my favorite senator of all time.

[Assistant] Talk about that aspect of your job, about having to prepare to do that, and some of those relationships. Maybe what you could tell someone that had to do that now, especially in the current atmosphere in DC.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You can get Congress to earmark every single year. That’s what JPL did, they lobbied their congressman. The congressman from Texas for some reason who likes Europa missions, [John A. Culberson]—they lobbied him, and he’d throw in $100 million. OMB would zero it out the next year. He’d throw in $100 million, OMB would zero it out. They did that for three years, but it took a lot of work.\n\n Yes, you can use Congress, but OMB can make it really difficult for you. If they don’t want to do something—every time there’s a new president, of course things change. For instance, the OMB last year was very pro-Earth science. Now, the current OMB is very anti-Earth science, even though it’s exactly the same people. Isn’t that amazing? They do what they’re told, let’s put it that way. Some of us, when faced with that thing of doing what you’re told, retire. Hint, hint.

[Assistant] How much of your time as AA was spent working on things like trying to find the budget?

[User] Too much. Budget and defending programs and fighting for programs was probably at least 50 percent of the job. Maybe 25 percent was working on programs that had problems, and trying to fix them with the right [NASA] Center Director or the right project manager. Maybe about 2 percent or 3 percent was the fun part of looking at what science is coming in, deciding what press conferences to do, doing press conferences, giving public lectures. But as you move up the chain that gets less and less and less of a percentage.\n\n I started out as a GS-13. I really started at the bottom, as a staff astronomer. I think I held every job you can hold as a scientist at NASA Headquarters. Except Administrator, but that’s okay, that’s a political appointee job.

[Assistant] You had the fun jobs.

[User] Some of them were fun.

[Assistant] Some of them more fun than others.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Too much. Budget and defending programs and fighting for programs was probably at least 50 percent of the job. Maybe 25 percent was working on programs that had problems, and trying to fix them with the right [NASA] Center Director or the right project manager. Maybe about 2 percent or 3 percent was the fun part of looking at what science is coming in, deciding what press conferences to do, doing press conferences, giving public lectures. But as you move up the chain that gets less and less and less of a percentage.\n\n I started out as a GS-13. I really started at the bottom, as a staff astronomer. I think I held every job you can hold as a scientist at NASA Headquarters. Except Administrator, but that’s okay, that’s a political appointee job.

[Assistant] You had the fun jobs.

[User] Some of them were fun.

[Assistant] Some of them more fun than others.

[User] The two Mars crashes weren’t fun, but the seven-in-a-row successes were fun.

[Assistant] You spent a lot of your time explaining when bad things happened.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of them were fun.

[Assistant] Some of them more fun than others.

[User] The two Mars crashes weren’t fun, but the seven-in-a-row successes were fun.

[Assistant] You spent a lot of your time explaining when bad things happened.

[User] Oh yes, it’s amazing how your bosses disappear during spherical aberration, yes. I was only 35, 40 years old. In 1990 on the day for the [Hubble] spherical aberration press conference, I was given the honor of telling the American people why we wouldn’t be delivering the science. One of my bosses was in Japan, I don’t know where the other one was. Yes, I’ll never forget that day because it’s like explaining to the press when you stop beating your wife.

[Assistant] Talk about that day for just a minute.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Never.

[Assistant] So that was the beginning of repairing any of the satellites.

[User] Beginning and the end. Hubble. A lot of people at NASA had this idea, “Oh, now that we’ve done it for Hubble, we can do it for all these other satellites. Let’s spend billions of dollars on satellite repair.” People have to remember that Hubble was designed from day one to be worked on by astronauts on the Space Shuttle. There are two problems with going off to do it on other things now. One, there’s no Shuttle, and two, they weren’t built to be repaired in space. Other than that, have a great day. But there are people out there that talk about it all the time. “Oh yes, satellite repair.” Right, okay, good luck with that.

[Assistant] It was tough getting that last repair done too, as far as getting that approved.

[User] Yes. Oh God, yes. Sean O’Keefe—I won’t talk about that. Talk about foot in mouth disease. “I’m the Administrator, I’m going to cancel the last servicing mission.” Yes, good luck with that, Sean. We were very proud to support him on that because we all knew how far that would get. It’s like going up to a panda bear at the Washington Zoo [National Zoological Park, Washington, DC] and punching him in the nose. How’s the public going to take that?

[Assistant] That’s a good analogy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Charlie Bolden. Charlie and I got along quite well, despite his deputy always trying to undercut me in front of Charlie. Charlie was the pilot of my Hubble [launch] mission [STS-31], so we knew each other from back in 1990. We’re good old buddies, Hubble guys. Hubble guys stick together. Thank God he was a Hubble guy, considering what that woman tried to do to me.\n\n We got along quite well. We worked very well on the Mars Program, working with ESA. He loved the idea of getting half our missions paid for by the Europeans. That gave him a lot to brag about to Congress. What he didn’t know was that a certain woman was undercutting us to a certain guy at OMB, to the point where it all fell apart.\n\n Charlie and I still reminisce about those days when I see him at Mars launches. I went up to the MAVEN launch about two years ago and Charlie and I were reminiscing about it then. He was at OSIRIS too, I ran into him at the OSIRIS launch. I still go up to Kennedy occasionally for launches, or just watch them go up here. KSC is due north of here, so we can watch. I’ll be watching TV at night and saying, “Barbara [spouse], let’s go outside, there’s a launch,” because there’s a big flame out the window here going up into the sky.

[Assistant] Wow. That’s a nice view.

[User] Yes, it’s only 60 miles as the crow flies. It’s 100 miles as the car drives, but it’s 60 miles direct line of sight.

[Assistant] Nice way to retire and still see what’s happening.

[User] Yes, about every two weeks we see a launch. They’re especially good at night because they really light up the north sky.

[Assistant] Charlie of course, like you, believes in involving the public and talking with kids.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it’s only 60 miles as the crow flies. It’s 100 miles as the car drives, but it’s 60 miles direct line of sight.

[Assistant] Nice way to retire and still see what’s happening.

[User] Yes, about every two weeks we see a launch. They’re especially good at night because they really light up the north sky.

[Assistant] Charlie of course, like you, believes in involving the public and talking with kids.

[User] Oh, he loved kids. Charlie would cry at the drop of a hat. To me that’s good, I don’t care about the male crap. He was just an honest guy. The way he was treated by his deputy incensed so many of us. The other AAs, we all said, “We can’t wait till she leaves because we’ll have a big party for her the day after she leaves.” Which I believe they did. She was not liked. She was not liked in that organization, because everybody loved Charlie. Everybody loved Charlie, because he was just a human nice guy. Just a really nice guy.

[Assistant] You mentioned that Astrobiology Institute that Dan Goldin asked you to start. Do you want to talk about that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Plus, one thing we discovered—and you’re probably like this in Texas. Things here grow. You see those two palm trees there [pointing]? We planted those. They were Charlie Brown [short] palm trees, three feet tall. I planted them four years ago. Look, that’s four years.

[Assistant] We have that issue, too. We always say if we left for five years everything would just take over, vines covering everything

[User] We’ve got a mango tree that was like a stick, and it’s now 15 feet tall. That keeps you busy.

[Assistant] Going back, in your 2007 NASA at 50 interview—I’m just going to read a little bit about what you said to get your feelings on this now.

[User] God, that was 10 years ago.

[Assistant] Yes, it was 10 years ago. You said, “The country is on the verge of a reawakening in the importance of Earth science. People are waking up to the fact that the Earth is changing. Our job is to collect the data and give it to the decision makers.” That’s how you described what NASA’s job was, and that “NASA’s prime role in our society is not to allow what happened to the Romans to happen to America. Instead of looking outward they started looking inward. If America loses its frontiers, we won’t be speaking English.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We’ve got a mango tree that was like a stick, and it’s now 15 feet tall. That keeps you busy.

[Assistant] Going back, in your 2007 NASA at 50 interview—I’m just going to read a little bit about what you said to get your feelings on this now.

[User] God, that was 10 years ago.

[Assistant] Yes, it was 10 years ago. You said, “The country is on the verge of a reawakening in the importance of Earth science. People are waking up to the fact that the Earth is changing. Our job is to collect the data and give it to the decision makers.” That’s how you described what NASA’s job was, and that “NASA’s prime role in our society is not to allow what happened to the Romans to happen to America. Instead of looking outward they started looking inward. If America loses its frontiers, we won’t be speaking English.”

[User] My God, this is prophetic, this is scary. I actually said that?

[Assistant] You did. I was reading it, and I thought that’s pretty interesting that you mentioned that during this interview. Given the atmosphere we’re in now and the feeling of the current presidential administration on science—you mentioned they’ve cut education, in their proposed budget, they’re cutting a lot out in NASA and science. People are saying they can’t use the term “climate change” anymore. How do you feel we’re going to continue to attract those people to work for NASA, these scientists, these people that can make a difference? Or do we wait four years and hope that it goes away? How do you keep people around for the next four years? You mentioned they were leaving for Silicon Valley.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, thankfully.

[Assistant] I have to assume the communication got better, too, like you found the right people. Speaking to the other members of the team, they each had a counterpart on the other side, and you said yours was actually the Minister of Health.

[User] His counterpart was a lot of people. In a small country like that, you very quickly get to the top, as opposed to NASA, where we have thousands of people. But, yes, the Chief of Mission at the embassy here, the Chilean Embassy, he and I spent a lot of time working together. The Ambassador here was very supportive and very interested in making sure that NASA was involved and supported, and the Minister, as well as Juan Fernando, the head of the Chilean Space Agency, he did everything he could.\n\n Our embassy in Santiago was really the star. Those guys were working tirelessly for us to make sure that we had everything we needed when our team hit the ground, and that we were thinking about the right things and meeting the right people, and making sure that when we were doing press events, that they were well handled and professional, and helping us to make sure that we were a success as well.

[Assistant] While they were there, your team was involved in a couple of press conferences. Were you able to watch those?

[User] Some of them. Some of them I was able to listen. Some of them I got feedback afterwards, but they were all very positive, and I was getting stuff near real time from the embassy folks saying, “You guys are doing a great job. Keep it up.” I was watching them from afar to make sure that we were staying on track.

[Assistant] As in all good government work, reports always have to be filed. Did you have to do any specific reporting when this was over, or was it just part of the rest of what you do in this office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t get to go to the White House event. They only asked for the people that were down in Chile, and so I didn’t get to go to that. I did get to go to a small reception that Charlie and Lori hosted for us after they returned from the White House, and that’s where Charlie presented me with the medal, an Exceptional Achievement Medal for my involvement, and so did the other team members. The five of us got medals from Charlie. That was pretty neat. Dr. Duncan did a really nice presentation down in our auditorium here that you might want to look at if you haven’t seen it. It was a great summary of all of our activities, and he talked a little bit about his meeting the President. There’s a great picture we tease Mike about where the President’s talking, he’s looking in a different direction, so you can ask him about that when you interview him. What was he looking at out the window?

[Assistant] Where were you the night that they rescued the miners?

[User] I didn’t go to the reception. The Ambassador called me, and, unfortunately, I wasn’t able to do it because of a family event, but I was watching it on TV with my family and it was pretty doggone exciting. It was really just heartwarming. It was neat to have played a role in that and to be able to tell people that I played a role in it. It was really rewarding. It was one of the most positive things I’ve done since I’ve been here.

[Assistant] That’s a nice thought. J.D. [James D. Polk] mentioned that he felt like they went down representing the government, but they all left as friends. It’s nice to know that you all have developed some great friendships and relationships down there.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] Our time’s getting close to the end, but I was going to ask Jennifer or Bill if they had a couple of questions. Bill, you have anything?\n\n BARRY: No, I think you’ve covered the waterfront pretty much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t go to the reception. The Ambassador called me, and, unfortunately, I wasn’t able to do it because of a family event, but I was watching it on TV with my family and it was pretty doggone exciting. It was really just heartwarming. It was neat to have played a role in that and to be able to tell people that I played a role in it. It was really rewarding. It was one of the most positive things I’ve done since I’ve been here.

[Assistant] That’s a nice thought. J.D. [James D. Polk] mentioned that he felt like they went down representing the government, but they all left as friends. It’s nice to know that you all have developed some great friendships and relationships down there.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] Our time’s getting close to the end, but I was going to ask Jennifer or Bill if they had a couple of questions. Bill, you have anything?\n\n BARRY: No, I think you’ve covered the waterfront pretty much.

[User] Can I just add one thing?

[Assistant] Oh, please. Yes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it is.

[Assistant] Our time’s getting close to the end, but I was going to ask Jennifer or Bill if they had a couple of questions. Bill, you have anything?\n\n BARRY: No, I think you’ve covered the waterfront pretty much.

[User] Can I just add one thing?

[Assistant] Oh, please. Yes.

[User] You didn’t really ask me about it, but it really made me feel good about what we were doing—Dr. Duncan can tell you more—but there was discussions about circadian rhythms and the lighting that the folks had down in the mine, and there was some idea that there was better lighting that can be provided to the miners. So a guy who owns a company down in Florida [Lighting Science Group], on his own initiative, developed some lighting and engineered it so that it could be sent down in the Paloma [capsule] to get to the miners.\n\n I spent some time working with him on how to get it out of the United States and get it down to the miners. Ultimately, it didn’t get used, but the idea that this guy wanted to contribute it and provide it free of charge to the Chileans, I mean he paid for the design, the development, the shipment, everything, and he just did it out of the goodness of his heart because he wanted to contribute. I thought that was really amazing and a neat thing.

[Assistant] Al Holland mentioned him as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Can I just add one thing?

[Assistant] Oh, please. Yes.

[User] You didn’t really ask me about it, but it really made me feel good about what we were doing—Dr. Duncan can tell you more—but there was discussions about circadian rhythms and the lighting that the folks had down in the mine, and there was some idea that there was better lighting that can be provided to the miners. So a guy who owns a company down in Florida [Lighting Science Group], on his own initiative, developed some lighting and engineered it so that it could be sent down in the Paloma [capsule] to get to the miners.\n\n I spent some time working with him on how to get it out of the United States and get it down to the miners. Ultimately, it didn’t get used, but the idea that this guy wanted to contribute it and provide it free of charge to the Chileans, I mean he paid for the design, the development, the shipment, everything, and he just did it out of the goodness of his heart because he wanted to contribute. I thought that was really amazing and a neat thing.

[Assistant] Al Holland mentioned him as well.

[User] Fred [Maxik].

[Assistant] He talked about the fact that there was that issue with Customs, that he did everything on his own and then it just couldn’t get through, so it was a disappointment. In fact, Al didn’t know if it had actually ever gotten used, so do you know for sure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, we think they did. I saw the correspondence. It’s hard to know, because they were running in so many different directions, and like I said, the Minister was running the whole thing. It’s a small team, and so it just went into this hole. When I talked to the team afterwards, they were saying they saw some of their recommendations being implemented, so they felt like they had been read by some folks and that actions were taken because of them. I think they were. They just weren’t immediately responded to, but you would expect that with all the stuff they were doing.

[Assistant] Things did seem to progress a lot faster than was originally estimated. Do you believe that NASA would have been able to stay in for the long commitment if it had lasted another two or three months? Do you think that you’d have been able to sustain that relationship that long if they would have needed you?

[User] I don’t know. I was pushing the edge of the envelope on the funding that I had available to support the initiative. We probably would have had to talk some more with folks about it. I think the positive press associated with our involvement would have helped us to overcome that, but you never know. I mentioned we had a lot of congressional inquiries. Well, I always like to think that they were for positive reasons, but sometimes they may not be. They may be for other interests, wanting to understand why we were doing something that maybe necessarily wasn’t our main focus for the agency. So I don’t know.

[Assistant] It’s good we didn’t have to think about it, didn’t have to worry about it.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
Jennifer, do you have a question?

You talked about how some other federal agencies didn’t join in, they weren’t as active because of funding issues. Was DoD [Depaertment of Defense] involved, and were you involved working with them? Because obviously they worked in submarines, they worked with people in isolation. Were you working in tandem with them to develop recommendations?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. I was pushing the edge of the envelope on the funding that I had available to support the initiative. We probably would have had to talk some more with folks about it. I think the positive press associated with our involvement would have helped us to overcome that, but you never know. I mentioned we had a lot of congressional inquiries. Well, I always like to think that they were for positive reasons, but sometimes they may not be. They may be for other interests, wanting to understand why we were doing something that maybe necessarily wasn’t our main focus for the agency. So I don’t know.

[Assistant] It’s good we didn’t have to think about it, didn’t have to worry about it.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
Jennifer, do you have a question?

You talked about how some other federal agencies didn’t join in, they weren’t as active because of funding issues. Was DoD [Depaertment of Defense] involved, and were you involved working with them? Because obviously they worked in submarines, they worked with people in isolation. Were you working in tandem with them to develop recommendations?

[User] No. I wasn’t. I don’t know. You can ask Clint whether he reached out to them. The hub of the wheel was State, and so they were reaching out to us, they were reaching out to DoD, they were reaching out to Geological Survey and these other folks, and we didn’t necessarily come together. It was really through them. I had no direct involvement with DoD. I was aware they were talking to them, and somewhere in my notes I can tell you exactly what they were asking for and who they were talking to, but we didn’t have a direct involvement.

[Assistant] You mentioned that Chile reached out to you because the agency had experience with people in isolation, perhaps people under distress. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more in terms of besides being at, say, Space Station or in Skylab, maybe in terms of NEEMO [NASA Extreme Environment Mission Operations], maybe some work in Antarctica? Can you elaborate on some of those different fields you may have tapped into?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant]
Jennifer, do you have a question?

You talked about how some other federal agencies didn’t join in, they weren’t as active because of funding issues. Was DoD [Depaertment of Defense] involved, and were you involved working with them? Because obviously they worked in submarines, they worked with people in isolation. Were you working in tandem with them to develop recommendations?

[User] No. I wasn’t. I don’t know. You can ask Clint whether he reached out to them. The hub of the wheel was State, and so they were reaching out to us, they were reaching out to DoD, they were reaching out to Geological Survey and these other folks, and we didn’t necessarily come together. It was really through them. I had no direct involvement with DoD. I was aware they were talking to them, and somewhere in my notes I can tell you exactly what they were asking for and who they were talking to, but we didn’t have a direct involvement.

[Assistant] You mentioned that Chile reached out to you because the agency had experience with people in isolation, perhaps people under distress. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more in terms of besides being at, say, Space Station or in Skylab, maybe in terms of NEEMO [NASA Extreme Environment Mission Operations], maybe some work in Antarctica? Can you elaborate on some of those different fields you may have tapped into?

[User] Probably Dr. Duncan would be a better person to ask that question to. I think the Chileans were aware of our expertise and that’s why they came to us, but Dr. Duncan’s probably the better person to talk to.

[Assistant] Rebecca had just mentioned that they were in the country for a limited time when they went down. Was that primarily because of funding issues, or was there a specific reason they were only there for a short time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think a couple of nurses had been used as an experiment sometime before that. I looked that up, and that was my only—yes, women have been. But then, of course, I’m not sure this is true, but it was a little hint that, “Yeah, but they didn’t do very well.” Hey, you know? So that was one of the things I had to overcome.\n\n Then traveling was something else. “Oh, we don’t think you should travel.” I’ll tell you, that was still happening thirty years later. We were doing another test when I was in Life Sciences. I needed to go to Guadalupe, the Island of Guadalupe, and they said, “Oh, well, you better not go there. It’s not safe for women.”\n\n I said, “I’ll bet you half the population is women. What do you think?”\n\n Things like that, so you just had to—you know. [Laughs]

[Assistant] You had to work through that system, huh?

[User] I did go. I did go. See, that was one of the things about me. I’m not a sweet, little, retiring person, because I would never have survived at least the first ten, fifteen years. It’s much better now, I think, but I still think there’s a long ways to go.

[Assistant] Before you came to the Manned Spacecraft Center [Houston, Texas] [MSC], you worked a little while at Patrick Air Force Base [Florida].

[User] I was a mathematician, yes, as a junior mathematician.

[Assistant] Was that a correct title, or was that just a title to get you in the door.