[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For the first mission, the control center had the VIP [Very Important People] lounge where the scientists were supposed to be. [Since I was a co-investigator with T. Gold, I was there.] There must have been about fifteen or twenty of us. Wernher von Braun [was] there. Later on, people want[ed] to get in there, and they crowded everybody out unless you had a political clout to get in the control center. The overview is like a balcony looking down at the control center.\n\n Then the first mission when the astronauts landed, everybody was jumping up around and waving flags and things.

[Assistant] After the success of this first landing, was there an increase of requests from scientists to become more a part?

[User] See, we didn’t see all those proposals coming in. Headquarters only sent us back the worthiest of them. We had lots of nutcase calls, and we had to field those, a lot of crazy stuff.

[Assistant] So you got those here, as well as at Headquarters.

[User] … I remember one crazy call. This is somewhat risqué. This woman with a funny accent kept calling in to the astronauts. They had somebody fielding the calls, and I knew one of the guys fielding the calls. This woman calls in, and she strongly objected to the use of monkeys for those Mercury flights, especially female ones because their reproductive systems were accommodating [to] thrust so it would be an invalid subject.\n\n The guy that was listening to the call recognized the voice of this woman, and she used a lot of obscenities, and she was raving and raving and raving. He recognized the voice as the wife of a professor at University of Florida [Gainesville, Florida]. During a lull in our conversation, he chimed in and said, “How is so-and-so?” Not her husband, the boyfriend. She shrieked and dropped the phone, and they never heard from her again.

[Assistant] I guess there were very few dull moments during those time periods.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was heading the camera group. But then all of that was terminated when the whole thing was sent to the Ames Lab.\n\n We had not only space instruments, but lots of aircraft flights shooting crops at various stages of the growth, correlating that with the ground to see what nuances of color you could see from space for what those nuances meant on the ground. That’s a major program.\n\n Professor Robert Colwell was a major factor in that. He was a professor of geology at [University of California] Berkeley [California]. In World War II, he was head of Naval Intelligence Pacific, and he was a very conservative person, excellent speaker. The campus at Berkeley is very rabid, well, [ultra liberal]. Anyway, they were always trying to harass him. He [won every] debate with them, but there was always harassment with Professor Colwell, and he was not even working in politics. …

[Assistant] Were you involved in the methods of technology that helped prepare the instruments to go to space when you were part of the Earth Resources as well?

[User] I was part of the program of selecting the contractors and managing the contracts for those instruments. Just managing those programs and then dealing with the data that came back and testing and this and that, that saturated all of the effort.

[Assistant] Was the Earth Resources a new division that you helped establish?

[User] It was a [new] division. I didn’t help establish it. Bob Piland was the first person, and I was just one of his supervisors. And later on, the emphasis changed. They decided to have [the program at] the Manned Spacecraft Center [be a scientist managed organization rather than] an engineering organization [interfacing with the outside scientific community. They had] the scientists come in and supervise and become the lead of that program at the Manned Spacecraft Center. They weren’t engineers and they weren’t the top scientists, but they decided they were going to be the bosses, and [they] subordinated the engineering, and then a lot of projects were misdirected. Maybe that’s why it was transferred to Ames Lab.

[Assistant] Did many projects not reach fruition as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was part of the program of selecting the contractors and managing the contracts for those instruments. Just managing those programs and then dealing with the data that came back and testing and this and that, that saturated all of the effort.

[Assistant] Was the Earth Resources a new division that you helped establish?

[User] It was a [new] division. I didn’t help establish it. Bob Piland was the first person, and I was just one of his supervisors. And later on, the emphasis changed. They decided to have [the program at] the Manned Spacecraft Center [be a scientist managed organization rather than] an engineering organization [interfacing with the outside scientific community. They had] the scientists come in and supervise and become the lead of that program at the Manned Spacecraft Center. They weren’t engineers and they weren’t the top scientists, but they decided they were going to be the bosses, and [they] subordinated the engineering, and then a lot of projects were misdirected. Maybe that’s why it was transferred to Ames Lab.

[Assistant] Did many projects not reach fruition as well?

[User] Well, the multispectral project. We developed the cameras, I think a couple [million] bucks apiece, but then the instrument to put the images back together would be, in effect, an optical computer, something maybe the size of this room. That program was cancelled by the guy who wanted to promote scanners rather than cameras, which was really naïve, because it was a complementary program.

[Assistant] After the work that you were helping with, with the Apollo Program, and those days started to end, of course, talk was beginning about Shuttle. Could you share with us what you were doing and what your roles were during the time between as the Apollo ended and before the Shuttle began? Were you involved with ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project] or with the Skylab?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When it came to using the cameras, yes, and it was hard to get some of them to focus cameras properly. There were all sorts of problems. The cameras were limited. The spacecraft has about a third of an atmosphere of pressure inside, and as you reduce the pressure or density of the gas around a camera lens, the camera lens is relatively stronger, so it focuses the picture in front of the film, so you’ve got to move the lens closer to the film to compensate for the cabin pressure, which was a problem. Then the window degrades the image dramatically, and you had to cope with that. Then you have to trade off the film speed and resolution versus the shutter speed and all of those things, and that’s a full-time job having interface with the astronauts and the astronaut trainers to keep that program rolling and calibrate all of the equipment. They used, of course, many different kinds of cameras, and all of them had those problems with the image quality.\n\n Also, [at the Johnson Space Center] they didn’t want to ever give out any of the original film, so they made a master from the original film. Then they made the prints they distributed to the scientists from that. So that was the third generation, and every time you copy, you degrade the information. I don’t know how to cope with that and preserve the originals.

[Assistant] Were you familiar with the IMAX camera before it—

[User] Our first acquaintance with it was when they proposed to do [a] film [documenting] the Shuttle Program. The premiere was done at the Smithsonian [Institution] in Washington [D.C.], and it was a great success. Have you ever been there to see the IMAX?

[Assistant] Oh yes.

[User] Have you ever seen [their next movie about the space program]?

[Assistant] Yes, they’re very stunning.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Our first acquaintance with it was when they proposed to do [a] film [documenting] the Shuttle Program. The premiere was done at the Smithsonian [Institution] in Washington [D.C.], and it was a great success. Have you ever been there to see the IMAX?

[Assistant] Oh yes.

[User] Have you ever seen [their next movie about the space program]?

[Assistant] Yes, they’re very stunning.

[User] The “Girl Friday” of the head of IMAX was an Indian, American Indian, and very sharp. … [She was great at getting things done.] She got caught sneaking under the [JSC] fence, just trying to get some logistics done supporting the [movie], and they raised hell with her about it. Of course, she got away with it because she wasn’t doing anything wrong.

[Assistant] What type of differences did you encounter of preparing any types of these types of payloads for the Shuttle as you did when you were the Apollo era? Were you able to use the same processes and procedures?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Have you ever seen [their next movie about the space program]?

[Assistant] Yes, they’re very stunning.

[User] The “Girl Friday” of the head of IMAX was an Indian, American Indian, and very sharp. … [She was great at getting things done.] She got caught sneaking under the [JSC] fence, just trying to get some logistics done supporting the [movie], and they raised hell with her about it. Of course, she got away with it because she wasn’t doing anything wrong.

[Assistant] What type of differences did you encounter of preparing any types of these types of payloads for the Shuttle as you did when you were the Apollo era? Were you able to use the same processes and procedures?

[User] You worry about the stress of going into orbit. The forces and vibrations are heavy. You would be surprised. That great big rocket on Apollo vibrates in all these modes, including the pogo mode [end to] end, and these forces are enough to tear things apart. You had to take all the equipment and design it to cope with that, and then you had to put it in machines to vibrate that to see if it would withstand what you designed it to meet. That was just the environment challenge. The temperature problem, the pressurization problem, the window problem, and the operational problem of the astronauts, all those things you had to constantly deal with them and fight. As long as they were using the equipment, you were just saturated performing that task and then analyzing what they got back and how they did this and should have done that, and how to use it. …

[Assistant] Did you encounter then the same type of aspects when you were preparing things for the Shuttle that you had to do all the testing for the environment and pressure?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The “Girl Friday” of the head of IMAX was an Indian, American Indian, and very sharp. … [She was great at getting things done.] She got caught sneaking under the [JSC] fence, just trying to get some logistics done supporting the [movie], and they raised hell with her about it. Of course, she got away with it because she wasn’t doing anything wrong.

[Assistant] What type of differences did you encounter of preparing any types of these types of payloads for the Shuttle as you did when you were the Apollo era? Were you able to use the same processes and procedures?

[User] You worry about the stress of going into orbit. The forces and vibrations are heavy. You would be surprised. That great big rocket on Apollo vibrates in all these modes, including the pogo mode [end to] end, and these forces are enough to tear things apart. You had to take all the equipment and design it to cope with that, and then you had to put it in machines to vibrate that to see if it would withstand what you designed it to meet. That was just the environment challenge. The temperature problem, the pressurization problem, the window problem, and the operational problem of the astronauts, all those things you had to constantly deal with them and fight. As long as they were using the equipment, you were just saturated performing that task and then analyzing what they got back and how they did this and should have done that, and how to use it. …

[Assistant] Did you encounter then the same type of aspects when you were preparing things for the Shuttle that you had to do all the testing for the environment and pressure?

[User] Well, just as much as you did for the Apollo. You had the terrible vibrations and forces of getting into orbit. You had to cope with the pressure and temperature problems in orbit, and then just the astronauts’ activity supporting it to get a maximum return. There’s a whole staff of people training the astronauts, and some astronauts were real good, some were not so good.

[Assistant] You had so many more going on the Shuttle than you did with the Apollo, so that must have added a little bit more—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You worry about the stress of going into orbit. The forces and vibrations are heavy. You would be surprised. That great big rocket on Apollo vibrates in all these modes, including the pogo mode [end to] end, and these forces are enough to tear things apart. You had to take all the equipment and design it to cope with that, and then you had to put it in machines to vibrate that to see if it would withstand what you designed it to meet. That was just the environment challenge. The temperature problem, the pressurization problem, the window problem, and the operational problem of the astronauts, all those things you had to constantly deal with them and fight. As long as they were using the equipment, you were just saturated performing that task and then analyzing what they got back and how they did this and should have done that, and how to use it. …

[Assistant] Did you encounter then the same type of aspects when you were preparing things for the Shuttle that you had to do all the testing for the environment and pressure?

[User] Well, just as much as you did for the Apollo. You had the terrible vibrations and forces of getting into orbit. You had to cope with the pressure and temperature problems in orbit, and then just the astronauts’ activity supporting it to get a maximum return. There’s a whole staff of people training the astronauts, and some astronauts were real good, some were not so good.

[Assistant] You had so many more going on the Shuttle than you did with the Apollo, so that must have added a little bit more—

[User] [It was very important to communicate with the astronauts and to recognize their insights.] …

[Assistant] You were with the Space Program for thirty-seven years, and you saw quite many changes, including—I’m going to ask you about some changes that you saw in your first virtual reality concepts that you put together and then, of course, what they’re using now for the Shuttle in how to do training. Could you share that with us?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, just as much as you did for the Apollo. You had the terrible vibrations and forces of getting into orbit. You had to cope with the pressure and temperature problems in orbit, and then just the astronauts’ activity supporting it to get a maximum return. There’s a whole staff of people training the astronauts, and some astronauts were real good, some were not so good.

[Assistant] You had so many more going on the Shuttle than you did with the Apollo, so that must have added a little bit more—

[User] [It was very important to communicate with the astronauts and to recognize their insights.] …

[Assistant] You were with the Space Program for thirty-seven years, and you saw quite many changes, including—I’m going to ask you about some changes that you saw in your first virtual reality concepts that you put together and then, of course, what they’re using now for the Shuttle in how to do training. Could you share that with us?

[User] I haven’t seen the current equipment, but I’m sure they’ve got some of the old—see, it’s expensive to do the virtual reality properly, and they’ve probably got some lesser systems. But I’m sure they’ve got some of the real ones around. I’ve got to go over to Building 16 and look and see if that stuff’s still there.

[Assistant] What other areas did you have some specific involvement in during those first days that you were here, that you feel are still having an impact on today’s space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] [It was very important to communicate with the astronauts and to recognize their insights.] …

[Assistant] You were with the Space Program for thirty-seven years, and you saw quite many changes, including—I’m going to ask you about some changes that you saw in your first virtual reality concepts that you put together and then, of course, what they’re using now for the Shuttle in how to do training. Could you share that with us?

[User] I haven’t seen the current equipment, but I’m sure they’ve got some of the old—see, it’s expensive to do the virtual reality properly, and they’ve probably got some lesser systems. But I’m sure they’ve got some of the real ones around. I’ve got to go over to Building 16 and look and see if that stuff’s still there.

[Assistant] What other areas did you have some specific involvement in during those first days that you were here, that you feel are still having an impact on today’s space program?

[User] Oh, everything’s melted together, but I presume that training with valid virtual realities is significant, I’m sure. The more valid it is, the more virtuous the reality, the more likely they’re to benefit from the training, and the astronaut training is a big activity.

[Assistant] Also during the tenure at NASA that you had, there were so many high points, but there were some tragic times, too, including the loss of Apollo 1 crew and of\n\n Challenger\n\n . Can you tell us how that affected your work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They [redesigned the gasket system]. That’s about all I can think of they did. They insulated one of the struts that held the oxygen-hydrogen tank, so that the falling ice being shed off a tank wouldn’t damage the strut so much.

[Assistant] Did these setbacks or any other incidents in your time with NASA ever make you stop to think that maybe you wanted to change your career?

[User] No.

[Assistant] In [19]’93, what prompted you to retire from NASA?

[User] I was sixty-nine years old. I was older than [almost] everybody. Also, I had been diagnosed with cutaneous lymphoma, and I was going to have to undergo whole-body radiation plus a year of chemotherapy. I didn’t know, but you can’t do anything under those conditions. You hold on to the walls for a year after [treatment]. … After ten years, they told me I was cured [and said almost no one is ever cured]. But the penalties, your tear glands, your salivary glands, your sense of smell, [your sense of taste] are all very badly damaged, lots of other things.

[Assistant] You mentioned a couple times in our conversation today that you referred to this morning, so you still have a chance to meet with some of your colleagues.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] In [19]’93, what prompted you to retire from NASA?

[User] I was sixty-nine years old. I was older than [almost] everybody. Also, I had been diagnosed with cutaneous lymphoma, and I was going to have to undergo whole-body radiation plus a year of chemotherapy. I didn’t know, but you can’t do anything under those conditions. You hold on to the walls for a year after [treatment]. … After ten years, they told me I was cured [and said almost no one is ever cured]. But the penalties, your tear glands, your salivary glands, your sense of smell, [your sense of taste] are all very badly damaged, lots of other things.

[Assistant] You mentioned a couple times in our conversation today that you referred to this morning, so you still have a chance to meet with some of your colleagues.

[User] Every month, some of the very senior types meet at a restaurant [for breakfast]. Carl Watkins [coordinates these meetings]. … Typically, maybe thirty-some people will show. …

[Assistant] The success of the space program for the United States, of course, results from all of the work of individuals like yourself and your other colleagues. Are there other people that, as you were working at NASA, made an impact on your life or maybe served as a mentor or someone that you remember as being very instrumental in helping you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was sixty-nine years old. I was older than [almost] everybody. Also, I had been diagnosed with cutaneous lymphoma, and I was going to have to undergo whole-body radiation plus a year of chemotherapy. I didn’t know, but you can’t do anything under those conditions. You hold on to the walls for a year after [treatment]. … After ten years, they told me I was cured [and said almost no one is ever cured]. But the penalties, your tear glands, your salivary glands, your sense of smell, [your sense of taste] are all very badly damaged, lots of other things.

[Assistant] You mentioned a couple times in our conversation today that you referred to this morning, so you still have a chance to meet with some of your colleagues.

[User] Every month, some of the very senior types meet at a restaurant [for breakfast]. Carl Watkins [coordinates these meetings]. … Typically, maybe thirty-some people will show. …

[Assistant] The success of the space program for the United States, of course, results from all of the work of individuals like yourself and your other colleagues. Are there other people that, as you were working at NASA, made an impact on your life or maybe served as a mentor or someone that you remember as being very instrumental in helping you?

[User] Oh, I knew a lot of instrumental people, but I don’t look upon them as—I mean, everybody was self-teaching themselves. You had to become good at aerodynamics, electronics, optics, physics, all of that stuff. [We became self taught] rocket scientist[s]. The term is now in the language.

[Assistant] Mr. Pearce, what do you consider to be the most challenging aspect of your career with working with NASA? What was the most challenging time for you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Every month, some of the very senior types meet at a restaurant [for breakfast]. Carl Watkins [coordinates these meetings]. … Typically, maybe thirty-some people will show. …

[Assistant] The success of the space program for the United States, of course, results from all of the work of individuals like yourself and your other colleagues. Are there other people that, as you were working at NASA, made an impact on your life or maybe served as a mentor or someone that you remember as being very instrumental in helping you?

[User] Oh, I knew a lot of instrumental people, but I don’t look upon them as—I mean, everybody was self-teaching themselves. You had to become good at aerodynamics, electronics, optics, physics, all of that stuff. [We became self taught] rocket scientist[s]. The term is now in the language.

[Assistant] Mr. Pearce, what do you consider to be the most challenging aspect of your career with working with NASA? What was the most challenging time for you?

[User] Well, the worst time was when they decided to bring [some] scientists into NASA and have them supervise the [experiment] engineering rather than have NASA have the engineers go to the [scientific community] and give them everything they could possibly hope to get, rather than [have] the scientist dictating what he thinks he ought to get. Generally speaking, we gave them everything they could possibly squeeze [on to the spacecraft]. …

[Assistant] On the other end of that, what do you consider, with everything that you’ve done and so much that you’ve done, is there an area or two areas or however many areas that you consider to be the most significant accomplishment that you’ve made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I knew a lot of instrumental people, but I don’t look upon them as—I mean, everybody was self-teaching themselves. You had to become good at aerodynamics, electronics, optics, physics, all of that stuff. [We became self taught] rocket scientist[s]. The term is now in the language.

[Assistant] Mr. Pearce, what do you consider to be the most challenging aspect of your career with working with NASA? What was the most challenging time for you?

[User] Well, the worst time was when they decided to bring [some] scientists into NASA and have them supervise the [experiment] engineering rather than have NASA have the engineers go to the [scientific community] and give them everything they could possibly hope to get, rather than [have] the scientist dictating what he thinks he ought to get. Generally speaking, we gave them everything they could possibly squeeze [on to the spacecraft]. …

[Assistant] On the other end of that, what do you consider, with everything that you’ve done and so much that you’ve done, is there an area or two areas or however many areas that you consider to be the most significant accomplishment that you’ve made?

[User] Doing the first virtual reality, I guess that’s the most significant thing. I guess that was it. That was the first real virtual reality, and that was in [19]’62, ’63.

[Assistant] We’ve talked quite a bit about many of the roles that you’ve done, but are there aspects or areas that we haven’t covered this morning that you would like for us to know or maybe some moments or remembrances of your time with NASA that we haven’t covered yet that you’d like to spend some time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the worst time was when they decided to bring [some] scientists into NASA and have them supervise the [experiment] engineering rather than have NASA have the engineers go to the [scientific community] and give them everything they could possibly hope to get, rather than [have] the scientist dictating what he thinks he ought to get. Generally speaking, we gave them everything they could possibly squeeze [on to the spacecraft]. …

[Assistant] On the other end of that, what do you consider, with everything that you’ve done and so much that you’ve done, is there an area or two areas or however many areas that you consider to be the most significant accomplishment that you’ve made?

[User] Doing the first virtual reality, I guess that’s the most significant thing. I guess that was it. That was the first real virtual reality, and that was in [19]’62, ’63.

[Assistant] We’ve talked quite a bit about many of the roles that you’ve done, but are there aspects or areas that we haven’t covered this morning that you would like for us to know or maybe some moments or remembrances of your time with NASA that we haven’t covered yet that you’d like to spend some time?

[User] Right at the moment, nothing comes to mind other than the fact, it is very regrettable that they abandoned the Earth Resource Program at this center and pushed it into limbo. That was unfortunate, because a lot of that was a lot more worthy than much of the stuff that’s now being [done].

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Jennifer if you have any questions.

I thought of one question. You mentioned that you interfaced with the scientists on experiments for the Apollo Program, and I’m curious, we have read a lot of books that talked about the tensions between scientists and engineers in the Manned Spacecraft Center. What were your perceptions of that during the sixties?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Doing the first virtual reality, I guess that’s the most significant thing. I guess that was it. That was the first real virtual reality, and that was in [19]’62, ’63.

[Assistant] We’ve talked quite a bit about many of the roles that you’ve done, but are there aspects or areas that we haven’t covered this morning that you would like for us to know or maybe some moments or remembrances of your time with NASA that we haven’t covered yet that you’d like to spend some time?

[User] Right at the moment, nothing comes to mind other than the fact, it is very regrettable that they abandoned the Earth Resource Program at this center and pushed it into limbo. That was unfortunate, because a lot of that was a lot more worthy than much of the stuff that’s now being [done].

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Jennifer if you have any questions.

I thought of one question. You mentioned that you interfaced with the scientists on experiments for the Apollo Program, and I’m curious, we have read a lot of books that talked about the tensions between scientists and engineers in the Manned Spacecraft Center. What were your perceptions of that during the sixties?

[User] Well, perhaps on my programs they always listened to me, so I somehow had the knack in that I could interface with them, and they always bought my side, my argument. A lot of other people that should have straightened something out didn’t. But it was very important to interface with scientists or astronauts. You’ve got to be able to interface on their level, and if you can’t, the information doesn’t go back and forth. They’ve got to believe you.

[Assistant] I also had another question about your Earth Resources Program. Can you give us a timeline of when that began and when that program ended?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right at the moment, nothing comes to mind other than the fact, it is very regrettable that they abandoned the Earth Resource Program at this center and pushed it into limbo. That was unfortunate, because a lot of that was a lot more worthy than much of the stuff that’s now being [done].

[Assistant]
I was going to ask Jennifer if you have any questions.

I thought of one question. You mentioned that you interfaced with the scientists on experiments for the Apollo Program, and I’m curious, we have read a lot of books that talked about the tensions between scientists and engineers in the Manned Spacecraft Center. What were your perceptions of that during the sixties?

[User] Well, perhaps on my programs they always listened to me, so I somehow had the knack in that I could interface with them, and they always bought my side, my argument. A lot of other people that should have straightened something out didn’t. But it was very important to interface with scientists or astronauts. You’ve got to be able to interface on their level, and if you can’t, the information doesn’t go back and forth. They’ve got to believe you.

[Assistant] I also had another question about your Earth Resources Program. Can you give us a timeline of when that began and when that program ended?

[User] I would say it began to be significant like in [19]’68, ’69, maybe, and I’m trying to think of the date when they moved it to Ames. Oh, middle seventies. It was a big thing here. We had three or four airplanes flying out of Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas], and a whole batch of things going, and they just vanished.

[Assistant] You mentioned you worked with contractors. Did you work at all with any other federal agencies, like the Department of Agriculture or NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, perhaps on my programs they always listened to me, so I somehow had the knack in that I could interface with them, and they always bought my side, my argument. A lot of other people that should have straightened something out didn’t. But it was very important to interface with scientists or astronauts. You’ve got to be able to interface on their level, and if you can’t, the information doesn’t go back and forth. They’ve got to believe you.

[Assistant] I also had another question about your Earth Resources Program. Can you give us a timeline of when that began and when that program ended?

[User] I would say it began to be significant like in [19]’68, ’69, maybe, and I’m trying to think of the date when they moved it to Ames. Oh, middle seventies. It was a big thing here. We had three or four airplanes flying out of Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas], and a whole batch of things going, and they just vanished.

[Assistant] You mentioned you worked with contractors. Did you work at all with any other federal agencies, like the Department of Agriculture or NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]?

[User] Well, no, they weren’t putting [many] experiments onboard. Of course, NOAA, we had weather problems and we always interfaced with them and all that governs the thing, when you do the mission. [When informed about solar flares, we] put the astronauts in the heaviest shielded part of the Space Station, otherwise, they’re liable to be injured by the solar flare.\n\n But in general, [it was not] the government agencies. It was the academic community that was feeding the experiments into the programs, and we were getting some of the best stuff that way. …

[Assistant] Before we end, I was going to ask if you had any involvement at all with all the different phases of the Space Station development that NASA has.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say it began to be significant like in [19]’68, ’69, maybe, and I’m trying to think of the date when they moved it to Ames. Oh, middle seventies. It was a big thing here. We had three or four airplanes flying out of Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas], and a whole batch of things going, and they just vanished.

[Assistant] You mentioned you worked with contractors. Did you work at all with any other federal agencies, like the Department of Agriculture or NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]?

[User] Well, no, they weren’t putting [many] experiments onboard. Of course, NOAA, we had weather problems and we always interfaced with them and all that governs the thing, when you do the mission. [When informed about solar flares, we] put the astronauts in the heaviest shielded part of the Space Station, otherwise, they’re liable to be injured by the solar flare.\n\n But in general, [it was not] the government agencies. It was the academic community that was feeding the experiments into the programs, and we were getting some of the best stuff that way. …

[Assistant] Before we end, I was going to ask if you had any involvement at all with all the different phases of the Space Station development that NASA has.

[User] Well, the Space Station was—I did interface significantly. It was a parallel program and the Shuttle was saturating us just keeping current with what we were doing there, and so I never really interfaced with the Space Station, other than some slight early inputs about the windows. To do an appropriate window, which is very, very important, not just from the tourist standpoint of the astronauts, but the instruments have to go see through the windows. First, it has to be safe, and to be optically perfect, it’s extremely extravagant, unbelievably expensive. A window. A window might [cost] several million dollars to do this, to have perfect quartz, things like that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to add today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, no, they weren’t putting [many] experiments onboard. Of course, NOAA, we had weather problems and we always interfaced with them and all that governs the thing, when you do the mission. [When informed about solar flares, we] put the astronauts in the heaviest shielded part of the Space Station, otherwise, they’re liable to be injured by the solar flare.\n\n But in general, [it was not] the government agencies. It was the academic community that was feeding the experiments into the programs, and we were getting some of the best stuff that way. …

[Assistant] Before we end, I was going to ask if you had any involvement at all with all the different phases of the Space Station development that NASA has.

[User] Well, the Space Station was—I did interface significantly. It was a parallel program and the Shuttle was saturating us just keeping current with what we were doing there, and so I never really interfaced with the Space Station, other than some slight early inputs about the windows. To do an appropriate window, which is very, very important, not just from the tourist standpoint of the astronauts, but the instruments have to go see through the windows. First, it has to be safe, and to be optically perfect, it’s extremely extravagant, unbelievably expensive. A window. A window might [cost] several million dollars to do this, to have perfect quartz, things like that.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you would like to add today?

[User] Well, right at the moment, I don’t think of it. Later, I’ll probably think of something, and you’ll say, “Why didn’t we ask him about such-and such?”

[Assistant] Well, that seems to happen, and so we’ll have that opportunity maybe to add as we review your transcript. But we thank you for coming in today.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a funny time right after that. I got a letter from Doc, and he said—and I knew this anyway—he said, "You know, every device that I've ever developed (and there were many of them), I've always wanted to be involved in the first flight, to make sure everything worked properly. I'd like to have you and your boss Jim consider me as an astronaut."\n\n I took it in to show Jim Webb, and he got very excited. He said, "Isn't that wonderful, one of our scientists is interested in going and being directly involved." He said, "I think I'll take it over and show it to President Kennedy tomorrow when I'm with him."\n\n And Hugh Dryden said, "Wait a minute, Jim. Doc Draper is over sixty years old. I'm not sure his health would permit it. We can get in a terrible mess if we start selecting astronauts that way."\n\n And Doc Draper never let me forget it. He said, "You never acted on my suggestion. I was all ready to go to the moon and you wouldn't let me go."

[Assistant] I'm sure he would have done a good job at it.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I'm sure he would have.

[User] Well, let's see. Where do you think we are?

[Assistant] I think we're moving along. As we're talking about the contractors for Apollo and you were talking about having to review the contracts as they came in and knowing something about what it would be doing, but when the first contract for Apollo, for North American, was put out, a method of getting there hadn't fully been decided yet.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] I'm sure he would have.

[User] Well, let's see. Where do you think we are?

[Assistant] I think we're moving along. As we're talking about the contractors for Apollo and you were talking about having to review the contracts as they came in and knowing something about what it would be doing, but when the first contract for Apollo, for North American, was put out, a method of getting there hadn't fully been decided yet.

[User] Absolutely right.

[Assistant] Lunar orbit and earth orbit and direct descent. When did you first hear about that, and how did that all go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Korolov. Yes. Why they were going that route I think only he knew, probably.

[Assistant] That's interesting that it ended up being the same, even though they didn't actually go.

[User] They had an additional wrinkle to it; they also had [earth] orbit rendezvous. They were going to put everything up in earth orbit, without their cosmonauts aboard, and then take the cosmonauts up separately, rendezvous and dock, then go to the moon, and then up there again have, I think—I forget whether it was one or two cosmonauts go down to the moon, but leave one up going around, in orbit around the moon.

[Assistant] Slightly different approach but very much the same.

[User] Very similar.

[Assistant] Interesting. How much were you aware at time of the Soviet progress?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very similar.

[Assistant] Interesting. How much were you aware at time of the Soviet progress?

[User] We were aware of everything you could see. A small group of us at NASA were cleared for the overhead photography that was available. It was very closely held at that time. But we had one room at NASA that was built so that we could actually have somebody come over, chained to their wrist, and take it out and show it, then rechain it to their wrist and leave, and all that kind of business. It was a glass room inside of a room, so that there was no window to the outside for people to get the vibration of the window and intercept the conversation that way, and all this spook stuff.

[Assistant] Interesting.

[User] So we had briefings from the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency]… (A), when anything exciting happened, and, (B), quarterly, their estimate of what was going on. As I say, we tracked the big vehicle, because they had to have a big vehicle if they're going to go to the moon, and their big vehicle, instead of taking things out to the pad vertically, they took the things out horizontally. The first thing we saw was a great big long building with a track going out to where the pad was. Well, that was the first clue. Then we caught the thing on the track on the way out, and then we had got a picture of it sitting there ready to take off. Then the next thing we got a picture of was a big hole in the ground; it exploded. Then we saw another one coming along, and that one also exploded. So we had a pretty good feel for it, pretty good. We were also picking up conversation, with satellites, because Korolov at the time was using his car phone, and we were able to intercept some of that.

[Assistant] That's interesting. As the program was moving along—and this is actually jumping back a little bit—and once Kennedy had announced that we should take this challenge and go to the moon, and the program was going to have to grow and have to change, and the decision was made to move down to Houston, how much were you involved in that decision process?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Magnificent.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] And for a civil service team to be moved that way is very unusual. I think we only lost one person in that move. It had to be optional, whether people wanted to move or not.

[Assistant] Certainly.

[User] But the spirit in that group was so great that everybody wanted to be part of it. I think a few people moved even though they realized that they were probably risking their marriage in the process.

[Assistant] It's quite a move to go from Langley to Houston.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And for a civil service team to be moved that way is very unusual. I think we only lost one person in that move. It had to be optional, whether people wanted to move or not.

[Assistant] Certainly.

[User] But the spirit in that group was so great that everybody wanted to be part of it. I think a few people moved even though they realized that they were probably risking their marriage in the process.

[Assistant] It's quite a move to go from Langley to Houston.

[User] There were some similarities. They're both pretty hot in the summer, a little hotter down at Houston, but the bayous and so on are sort of like the tideland area down in the Chesapeake. Anyway, it worked out wonderfully.

[Assistant] A lot of the in-between areas were covered in your first couple of interviews, so now we'll actually kind of jump forward some. You mentioned earlier the Apollo fire, and that was a tremendous tragedy. How did you help work through that with NASA? How did that affect you and your career and help NASA come back on track and make the moon landing successful?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was rough.

[Assistant] Your friendship was strong enough to come through.

[User] It was terribly rough on Joe Shea, because he was to be in the capsule, to make things even worse, and at the last minute his headset didn't work, so he thought, "Well, there's no point in lying there in the capsule if I can't hear anything," so he went and got in a plane that was flying back to Houston when he got the news. I guess the doctor in charge of all of the medical stuff associated with the astronauts was—

[Assistant] [Dr. Charles A.] Chuck Berry?

[User] Chuck. I talked to him quite a bit during this period, because he was helping the astronaut wives and he was helping all kinds of people who were deeply distressed by all of this. He told me that people would come to Washington to testify and do various things and they'd be sort of sobbing all the way to Washington. I mean, it was a very emotional time.

[Assistant] Let me pause here for a moment to change the tape.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chuck. I talked to him quite a bit during this period, because he was helping the astronaut wives and he was helping all kinds of people who were deeply distressed by all of this. He told me that people would come to Washington to testify and do various things and they'd be sort of sobbing all the way to Washington. I mean, it was a very emotional time.

[Assistant] Let me pause here for a moment to change the tape.

[User] Okay. He [President Kennedy] said to his friend Senator [George A.] Smathers would probably come with him, senator from Florida, and, "We'll call you back in half an hour." So anyway, this is a model of what he was actually pointing at of the real thing sitting there on the pad. It was a Saturn I. This second stage was going to be used for the first time. It had liquid hydrogen [as a fuel,] which we were going to use for the first time in a Saturn… It was going to put the [heaviest] load in orbit…[up to that time.]\n\n So anyway, we showed [the President the vehicle. This is Wernher von Braun in the photograph, along with the President and myself. Then] we got in his helicopter and flew over the ground that was being prepared for the vertical assembly building…and then, still staying in the helicopter, flew out and saw a Polaris [launching]… We [flew] in the helicopter with Senator Smathers and with an admiral [Gallatin] whose name escapes me at the moment. It was a half-an-hour flight out, a half back…[so we had ample time to chat.] That was on a Saturday, and…he was shot the following Friday. And by the following Monday, I guess it was, the very same plane [that brought him to the Cape] was flying over the cemetery, Arlington Cemetery, where he was buried. All in a very short period of time.

[Assistant] Something like that can happen just so fast and unexpected.

[User] I'll say.

[Assistant] Very unfortunate. Very.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. He [President Kennedy] said to his friend Senator [George A.] Smathers would probably come with him, senator from Florida, and, "We'll call you back in half an hour." So anyway, this is a model of what he was actually pointing at of the real thing sitting there on the pad. It was a Saturn I. This second stage was going to be used for the first time. It had liquid hydrogen [as a fuel,] which we were going to use for the first time in a Saturn… It was going to put the [heaviest] load in orbit…[up to that time.]\n\n So anyway, we showed [the President the vehicle. This is Wernher von Braun in the photograph, along with the President and myself. Then] we got in his helicopter and flew over the ground that was being prepared for the vertical assembly building…and then, still staying in the helicopter, flew out and saw a Polaris [launching]… We [flew] in the helicopter with Senator Smathers and with an admiral [Gallatin] whose name escapes me at the moment. It was a half-an-hour flight out, a half back…[so we had ample time to chat.] That was on a Saturday, and…he was shot the following Friday. And by the following Monday, I guess it was, the very same plane [that brought him to the Cape] was flying over the cemetery, Arlington Cemetery, where he was buried. All in a very short period of time.

[Assistant] Something like that can happen just so fast and unexpected.

[User] I'll say.

[Assistant] Very unfortunate. Very.

[User] Let's see. How have we done on this list?

[Assistant] Doing pretty well. We're a good ways through. Just a few more questions, and we should tie off in some pretty good time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll say.

[Assistant] Very unfortunate. Very.

[User] Let's see. How have we done on this list?

[Assistant] Doing pretty well. We're a good ways through. Just a few more questions, and we should tie off in some pretty good time.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] I guess the next question is, you talked about how you had then resigned from NASA and you had initially said, and even then you repeated that when you'd come on it was for a short-term job and ended up being long term. What had prompted you to stick with it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think so. And I think as we've been going along in time, there have been more and more uses for space activity. When we first started remote sensing, it was first done for reconnaissance, highly secret, and then all of a sudden when we started looking at these images from space, it was obvious that there were other uses than just reconnaissance. But you had to have people become familiar with it in order to use it—geologists and agronomists and all the different disciplines that could make use of space photography. But for a while we couldn't make it available because we weren't even supposed to have it. But then we put up satellites, multispectral kind of satellites for this purpose. We kept having a terrible time getting the money for it, because they'd say, "Who needs it? If there's a need for it, the money would be there." And you'd say, "But there's no need for it now because people don't even know that such a thing exists."\n\n We were gradually able to get these satellites out, the ATS [Applications Technology Satellites] satellites, and now it's starting to be big business. You put satellites up and get this data, and you can sell it, to the point where the French are ahead of us on it, you know, for example, selling stuff. I guess it's Motorola [that] has got their system…[in space, a system] that involves sixty-two satellites, all put up there by private money, and that's great because [there’s] a commercial use for it.

[Assistant] Absolutely.

[User] But it's pretty hard for me to see the commercial use for having a man in space. Maybe there will be in time. If there could be, say, very special manufacturing which might include pharmaceuticals, there could be the pharmaceutical industry might have an interest in performing certain developments in space, something like that. It's possible.

[Assistant] Even just tourism. [Laughter]

[User] Yes. Believe it or not, I've got a student, a thesis student, going to be working on his thesis this fall on this very subject.

[Assistant] Oh, really. Interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But it's pretty hard for me to see the commercial use for having a man in space. Maybe there will be in time. If there could be, say, very special manufacturing which might include pharmaceuticals, there could be the pharmaceutical industry might have an interest in performing certain developments in space, something like that. It's possible.

[Assistant] Even just tourism. [Laughter]

[User] Yes. Believe it or not, I've got a student, a thesis student, going to be working on his thesis this fall on this very subject.

[Assistant] Oh, really. Interesting.

[User] Which I'm going to supervise. Yes. I've told him, at the start, I'm very dubious, but I'll be happy to supervise his thesis and it will be done without prejudice.

[Assistant] That should be interesting to see what his arguments are.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Believe it or not, I've got a student, a thesis student, going to be working on his thesis this fall on this very subject.

[Assistant] Oh, really. Interesting.

[User] Which I'm going to supervise. Yes. I've told him, at the start, I'm very dubious, but I'll be happy to supervise his thesis and it will be done without prejudice.

[Assistant] That should be interesting to see what his arguments are.

[User] Yes. If you could take somebody in orbit for $100,000, why, you could probably sell quite a few tickets.

[Assistant] I'm sure you could. It's all that excitement around it. I know I'd love to go up if I could afford it. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which I'm going to supervise. Yes. I've told him, at the start, I'm very dubious, but I'll be happy to supervise his thesis and it will be done without prejudice.

[Assistant] That should be interesting to see what his arguments are.

[User] Yes. If you could take somebody in orbit for $100,000, why, you could probably sell quite a few tickets.

[Assistant] I'm sure you could. It's all that excitement around it. I know I'd love to go up if I could afford it. [Laughter]

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, what was your greatest challenge?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. If you could take somebody in orbit for $100,000, why, you could probably sell quite a few tickets.

[Assistant] I'm sure you could. It's all that excitement around it. I know I'd love to go up if I could afford it. [Laughter]

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, what was your greatest challenge?

[User] I don't know. You had it on [your list of questions,] too, and I should have thought about…[it so that I could] give you a good answer right now. There certainly were some pretty interesting challenges. But I guess I'd have to say that the Apollo fire was the greatest challenge, dealing with the Apollo fire as…a specific.\n\n …[In] a more general…[way], what's the most difficult, I would say…involve[s] people…an attempt to judge whether or not an individual is doing their job properly. In most cases they were, but in some cases questions would arise, and then the issue of how do you determine whether the person should stay in the job or not and if it's [necessary] to make a change, how to make the change without ruining somebody's life. Those kind of issues are pretty tough.

[Assistant] Very tough. Very tough decisions. And important, too, because it does affect—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Exactly.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career with NASA, what was your greatest challenge?

[User] I don't know. You had it on [your list of questions,] too, and I should have thought about…[it so that I could] give you a good answer right now. There certainly were some pretty interesting challenges. But I guess I'd have to say that the Apollo fire was the greatest challenge, dealing with the Apollo fire as…a specific.\n\n …[In] a more general…[way], what's the most difficult, I would say…involve[s] people…an attempt to judge whether or not an individual is doing their job properly. In most cases they were, but in some cases questions would arise, and then the issue of how do you determine whether the person should stay in the job or not and if it's [necessary] to make a change, how to make the change without ruining somebody's life. Those kind of issues are pretty tough.

[Assistant] Very tough. Very tough decisions. And important, too, because it does affect—

[User] And you have to, I think, bear in mind that your responsibility to the whole is more important than the individual, yet the individual is very important, too.

[Assistant] Again a place for balance. In reflection, what would you consider to be your most significant accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And you have to, I think, bear in mind that your responsibility to the whole is more important than the individual, yet the individual is very important, too.

[Assistant] Again a place for balance. In reflection, what would you consider to be your most significant accomplishment?

[User] At NASA? [Laughter]

[Assistant] At NASA.

[User] Oh, I don't know.

[Assistant] Or most significant contribution.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At NASA? [Laughter]

[Assistant] At NASA.

[User] Oh, I don't know.

[Assistant] Or most significant contribution.

[User] Yes. Well…there were a very large number [of projects] in the seven and a half, whatever it was, years I was there, we had a whole bunch of projects, manned projects, Mercury, Gemini, and then the start of Apollo before I left. And then there were [missions] like the Ranger and the Surveyor [and the lunar orbiter to the Moon] and the Mariner going out to the planets, [plus] all the projects that involved [satellites] going in orbit, communication, [weather forecasting,] and various [others]. I think the role I had working with the project teams responsible for all these activities on the one hand and working with Jim Webb and Congress and the OMB [Office of Management and Budget] and so on, on the other, to match up the resources that were available with the projects and to help keep that whole machinery going was my greatest accomplishment.

[Assistant] That is certainly significant. Not everybody could do that, and not everybody could do it as well as you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The scientific community were not very pleased with Apollo, of course, because it looked to them—it's very easy to say, "Gee, if we only had that money for scientific work that's really important," you know, all of that money. People don't realize that the money isn't sitting there ready to be used for something else. I mean, if you cancel Apollo, it didn't mean automatically that any of that money would go into these other projects. But that's the way people tend to look at the budget. They couldn't see any real scientific merit in going. Jerry Wiesner himself had a lot of trouble with that. He was the science advisor to Kennedy, and he kept saying to the President—and I think [he] was right—that the reason for going to the moon was not really for scientific purposes. But as it turned out, there was a lot of scientific value in going to the moon. A lot was accomplished scientifically.

[Assistant] Absolutely. It may have started as more politically oriented, but the scientific return was very good. Are there any areas that we didn't cover?

[User] I think you did a pretty good job. Let's see.

[Assistant] I think we covered most everything that I had and certainly have covered quite a bit in your previous two interviews, too.

[User] There may very well be some overlap.

[Assistant] Any last thoughts or anything like that? Of course, if you come up with anything, too, we can always add that in at a later point.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Martin Collins is the chief honcho there. So I'd like to think that what you're doing will be done somewhat in collaboration, if you want to call it that, with them.

[Assistant] We did try and look at what they had, and, of course, they did spend many, many hours with you.

[User] This book here, to some extent, rests on that. I've told some of these war stories about my meetings with Johnson and other people, sort of interesting stories, and people say, "Have you ever thought of writing a book?" So finally I heard of a person who was helping people write their own autobiographies, named Webster Bull, and so I called him on the phone. He came over and I showed him some of the material that I had, and asked him if he'd be interested in working with me on it. Signed a contract to make up to fifty copies. It was rather a specific contract. He took this material I gave him, and we talked some. He sort of took my words but put it in the form of what he thought might make a book. He did it remarkably well, but it didn't satisfy me … So then that got me really going to do a lot of the additional writing.

[Assistant] We're certainly glad that you did, and I'm sure that your family is glad that you did.

[User] So that's about it, I guess.

[Assistant] We want to thank you for sharing all this with us. We really appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This book here, to some extent, rests on that. I've told some of these war stories about my meetings with Johnson and other people, sort of interesting stories, and people say, "Have you ever thought of writing a book?" So finally I heard of a person who was helping people write their own autobiographies, named Webster Bull, and so I called him on the phone. He came over and I showed him some of the material that I had, and asked him if he'd be interested in working with me on it. Signed a contract to make up to fifty copies. It was rather a specific contract. He took this material I gave him, and we talked some. He sort of took my words but put it in the form of what he thought might make a book. He did it remarkably well, but it didn't satisfy me … So then that got me really going to do a lot of the additional writing.

[Assistant] We're certainly glad that you did, and I'm sure that your family is glad that you did.

[User] So that's about it, I guess.

[Assistant] We want to thank you for sharing all this with us. We really appreciate it.

[User] I guess I ought to ask you, what are you going to do with all this material?

[Assistant] That's a very good question. Right now we'll take it back and transcribe it, and again send it to you to let you review.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's about it, I guess.

[Assistant] We want to thank you for sharing all this with us. We really appreciate it.

[User] I guess I ought to ask you, what are you going to do with all this material?

[Assistant] That's a very good question. Right now we'll take it back and transcribe it, and again send it to you to let you review.

[User] I thought the first came out very well.

[Assistant] Wonderful. We're glad to hear that. Thank you. It came out well because you spoke so well. We are hoping with this to make it available to the public and hopefully on the Internet, is what we're hoping to do.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I guess I ought to ask you, what are you going to do with all this material?

[Assistant] That's a very good question. Right now we'll take it back and transcribe it, and again send it to you to let you review.

[User] I thought the first came out very well.

[Assistant] Wonderful. We're glad to hear that. Thank you. It came out well because you spoke so well. We are hoping with this to make it available to the public and hopefully on the Internet, is what we're hoping to do.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] In the short-term future. We worked last year, part of our project included talking to some Shuttle-Mir participants, and that project is now in the next stages and we're actually working on a web site with that one in particular. So we're seeing how that goes, and we may be able to use that as a stepping board for what we can do with this one, so with this we're talking to more people over a longer period of time. But we're hoping the Shuttle-Mir one will come out this summer, and we'll certainly let you know on that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I thought the first came out very well.

[Assistant] Wonderful. We're glad to hear that. Thank you. It came out well because you spoke so well. We are hoping with this to make it available to the public and hopefully on the Internet, is what we're hoping to do.

[User] Okay.

[Assistant] In the short-term future. We worked last year, part of our project included talking to some Shuttle-Mir participants, and that project is now in the next stages and we're actually working on a web site with that one in particular. So we're seeing how that goes, and we may be able to use that as a stepping board for what we can do with this one, so with this we're talking to more people over a longer period of time. But we're hoping the Shuttle-Mir one will come out this summer, and we'll certainly let you know on that.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] Right now these are being taken over to the Scientific and Technical Information Center at JSC, and archived there and processed there and put into the system so that people can have access to them, but we do want to try and get more access. That's the immediate hopes.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Good. That's a great program. Did [JSC Center Director] George [W. S.] Abbey come up with the idea? How did you happen to do it, do you know?

[Assistant] George Abbey came up with the idea, or in talking with people came up with the idea, and thought it was very important, thought there were a lot of important people that we needed to talk to, and started it in late '96, and came up with a list of names. It was him and a couple of other people who came up with a list of the first names that we should talk to, and we're still talking to some of them, and our list is growing. Every time we add a new name and find new information, every time we talk to somebody, we hear something new. So that's wonderful. He's been pleased with it so far.

[User] Good.

[Assistant] I think now we've talked to—I think it's about eighty or ninety individuals now that we've had a chance to talk with.

[User] You've talked with some people at Huntsville?

[Assistant] Yes. We're trying to talk to as many people as we can, and we're going all over the country doing it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Enjoyed it very much. Some of the things that I did there that I—well, flying a T-38 was very beautiful, because that’s the best airplane that pilots could fly. When an airplane was built and you design it to do something, and whatever work you’ve given it to do, whether it’s haul a payload or something else, you’re taking away from its capability of flying by whatever else you’re causing it to do. If you make it heavy, it won’t do good.\n\n Anyway, the T-38, you can’t screw it up. They designed it so you can’t hang anything on it, and it’s just a perfect airplane. Can’t make it heavier or anything. It’s beautiful.\n\n Then I got to fly with most all the astronauts through the selection.

[Assistant] Now, did you teach the mission specialists [MSs] that came through? Were you an instructor in the T-38 as well?

[User] I flew with some of the mission specialists, and I did all that until 1989. I had a stroke, and it took me a year to get through that with the medical routine and whatnot, and after that they wouldn’t let me fly without another pilot. So I still flew with the astronaut pilots, but I didn’t fly with MSs after 1990.\n\n But up until that time I flew with all of them, and I was also flying the Gulfstreams Transport, and I flew the long-winged B-57. We did a lot of missions, going up to Alaska and down to Panama. Then also flew on a zero-G [gravity] airplane [KC-135].

[Assistant] Did you fly as a passenger and a pilot on the zero-G?

[User] I just flew as the pilot.

[Assistant] Just as pilot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I flew with some of the mission specialists, and I did all that until 1989. I had a stroke, and it took me a year to get through that with the medical routine and whatnot, and after that they wouldn’t let me fly without another pilot. So I still flew with the astronaut pilots, but I didn’t fly with MSs after 1990.\n\n But up until that time I flew with all of them, and I was also flying the Gulfstreams Transport, and I flew the long-winged B-57. We did a lot of missions, going up to Alaska and down to Panama. Then also flew on a zero-G [gravity] airplane [KC-135].

[Assistant] Did you fly as a passenger and a pilot on the zero-G?

[User] I just flew as the pilot.

[Assistant] Just as pilot.

[User] Then after that—I guess this is during the time I was grounded, they asked me to come down and fly a Shuttle simulator, the one over in Building 6, Engineering Building, where they verified the software and then for each mission I’d go up to it and make all the runs. Over the years they made the astronauts do that, and after they did it a hundred times, then it wasn’t fun for them anymore, but it had to be done by somebody. So anyway, that was good. I enjoyed that.\n\n Then that got me close enough to the operation of the Shuttle and whatnot. Then later on when they opened the TAL [Transoceanic Abort Landing] sites—they did that after the first accident—and then they’d send an astronaut to get three possible places of landing. They kind of got short on people, so they’d send me in one of them’s place to some of the landings. So I did that a few times. I enjoyed that.\n\n I guess that was about the last worthwhile thing I did. The last year or two when I was there, I didn’t do that, but I was still just doing the normal stuff at Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas].

[Assistant] Did you help support the Approach and Landing Test on the first Shuttle test?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just flew as the pilot.

[Assistant] Just as pilot.

[User] Then after that—I guess this is during the time I was grounded, they asked me to come down and fly a Shuttle simulator, the one over in Building 6, Engineering Building, where they verified the software and then for each mission I’d go up to it and make all the runs. Over the years they made the astronauts do that, and after they did it a hundred times, then it wasn’t fun for them anymore, but it had to be done by somebody. So anyway, that was good. I enjoyed that.\n\n Then that got me close enough to the operation of the Shuttle and whatnot. Then later on when they opened the TAL [Transoceanic Abort Landing] sites—they did that after the first accident—and then they’d send an astronaut to get three possible places of landing. They kind of got short on people, so they’d send me in one of them’s place to some of the landings. So I did that a few times. I enjoyed that.\n\n I guess that was about the last worthwhile thing I did. The last year or two when I was there, I didn’t do that, but I was still just doing the normal stuff at Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas].

[Assistant] Did you help support the Approach and Landing Test on the first Shuttle test?

[User] Not really.

[Assistant] At some point the Earth Resource Program, I believe, was turned over. The Air Force had had it at one time and then turned it over to NASA. Were you part of that program as well, the Project Airstream?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I had titles. On the B-57 stuff we had a project pilot, but then I was the older guy, probably with more experience, and I was kind of the lead guy. When we had something new come along, I’d be telling people what to look at or that kind of stuff, so for the airplanes. And then I was an instructor in the T-38, so might be—I can’t remember anything particular.

[Assistant] Okay. Was there a specific airplane you liked flying more than the others?

[User] Well, definitely T-38. I got checked out—the only four-engine airplane I was ever an aircraft commander on was a Super Guppy, because I was always a fighter pilot. I had never flown in airplanes with a lot of engines before I went to NASA.

[Assistant] That’s quite a unique plane, isn’t it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How was it for you to go from a T-38 to a Super Guppy?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, definitely T-38. I got checked out—the only four-engine airplane I was ever an aircraft commander on was a Super Guppy, because I was always a fighter pilot. I had never flown in airplanes with a lot of engines before I went to NASA.

[Assistant] That’s quite a unique plane, isn’t it?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How was it for you to go from a T-38 to a Super Guppy?

[User] It’s a different world or a different attitude. It’s just like going from a car to an airplane or from a bicycle to a car or something. Each time I was going somewhere, I knew how long it was going to take me to get there, and then I probably was always trying to get there a little bit quicker in that time, or I knew when it was, so it wasn’t much different, really.

[Assistant] You were at NASA when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident occurred. Was there anything that the Air Ops crew did or you were involved in with part of the investigation afterwards?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How was it for you to go from a T-38 to a Super Guppy?

[User] It’s a different world or a different attitude. It’s just like going from a car to an airplane or from a bicycle to a car or something. Each time I was going somewhere, I knew how long it was going to take me to get there, and then I probably was always trying to get there a little bit quicker in that time, or I knew when it was, so it wasn’t much different, really.

[Assistant] You were at NASA when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident occurred. Was there anything that the Air Ops crew did or you were involved in with part of the investigation afterwards?

[User] No. I was down here at Kennedy [Space Center, Florida]. I flew the Gulfstream down here to haul people, and I was geared up to fly it back after the flight. I don’t remember if we left that day or not, but—no, that’s not true; I guess I was down here later on.\n\n The Challenger accident, I was flying the simulator at Barksdale Air Force Base in Shreveport [Louisiana], the zero-G airplane simulator, with an astronaut that was new to Houston. He now works for [United Space Alliance, USA]. He’s their boss.

[Assistant] Is it [Michael J.] McCulley?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wasn’t. I don’t remember at the time being made aware of it at all. Of course, the big thing on Manned Orbiting Laboratory, when we were picked to go on it, we were told it was experiments, but in reality all it was was the Air Force had satellites with cameras, and someone thought they couldn’t get good enough resolution from control of the vehicle like when you get off to the side, then you have a thrust to come on to bring it back. Somebody was convinced that that would ruin the resolution of the pictures, and so we were to be up there to fly it to give better resolution.\n\n Of course, the five years that we were on the program or whatnot, they were improving the system all the time, so it wound up, they had a unmanned system that did the job good enough they didn’t need us. That’s why they canceled the program.

[Assistant] You had worked as part of that security program with the Air Force. Were you involved at all with the Department of Defense projects when you were in the Air Ops part of working with NASA? Nothing that involved you?

[User] No, [the Air Force] just divorced me completely when I went to Houston, I was assigned to Houston. I was still in the Air Force, but I had no Air Force contacts at all, or any directions from the Air Force.

[Assistant] Was it a totally different type of operation when you went to work with NASA, or was it similar?

[User] No, very similar.

[Assistant] Was your office most of the time at Ellington? Did you get space there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, [the Air Force] just divorced me completely when I went to Houston, I was assigned to Houston. I was still in the Air Force, but I had no Air Force contacts at all, or any directions from the Air Force.

[Assistant] Was it a totally different type of operation when you went to work with NASA, or was it similar?

[User] No, very similar.

[Assistant] Was your office most of the time at Ellington? Did you get space there?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you work under Mr. [Joseph S.] Algranti? That was your boss part of that time? The history of the Air Ops Program while you were there is quite extensive, developing all the different types of unique aircraft for NASA. Were you involved with the planning of the Shuttle Training Aircraft, the STA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, very similar.

[Assistant] Was your office most of the time at Ellington? Did you get space there?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you work under Mr. [Joseph S.] Algranti? That was your boss part of that time? The history of the Air Ops Program while you were there is quite extensive, developing all the different types of unique aircraft for NASA. Were you involved with the planning of the Shuttle Training Aircraft, the STA?

[User] Yes, that was one of my jobs. I was selected. Warren [J.] North was on Slayton’s staff at the time, and he was assigned to pick the airplanes which would be just fine to make a Shuttle out of. Anyway, I was picked, and I went in and flew three different airplanes to decide which one would be a good Shuttle training airplane. I evaluated each one of them, wrote up a report, and then suggested that they pick the Grumman airplane, and they did.\n\n Then when they came around to fly the airplane, I was supposed to be the project pilot on the STA. Then when it got around to the last part, they took me off and put some other guys on it, so I never did fly it. I never did fly the STA.

[Assistant] How about the carrier aircraft? Did you fly the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And did you work under Mr. [Joseph S.] Algranti? That was your boss part of that time? The history of the Air Ops Program while you were there is quite extensive, developing all the different types of unique aircraft for NASA. Were you involved with the planning of the Shuttle Training Aircraft, the STA?

[User] Yes, that was one of my jobs. I was selected. Warren [J.] North was on Slayton’s staff at the time, and he was assigned to pick the airplanes which would be just fine to make a Shuttle out of. Anyway, I was picked, and I went in and flew three different airplanes to decide which one would be a good Shuttle training airplane. I evaluated each one of them, wrote up a report, and then suggested that they pick the Grumman airplane, and they did.\n\n Then when they came around to fly the airplane, I was supposed to be the project pilot on the STA. Then when it got around to the last part, they took me off and put some other guys on it, so I never did fly it. I never did fly the STA.

[Assistant] How about the carrier aircraft? Did you fly the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That’s a mighty big plane, isn’t it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, that was one of my jobs. I was selected. Warren [J.] North was on Slayton’s staff at the time, and he was assigned to pick the airplanes which would be just fine to make a Shuttle out of. Anyway, I was picked, and I went in and flew three different airplanes to decide which one would be a good Shuttle training airplane. I evaluated each one of them, wrote up a report, and then suggested that they pick the Grumman airplane, and they did.\n\n Then when they came around to fly the airplane, I was supposed to be the project pilot on the STA. Then when it got around to the last part, they took me off and put some other guys on it, so I never did fly it. I never did fly the STA.

[Assistant] How about the carrier aircraft? Did you fly the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That’s a mighty big plane, isn’t it.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When did you decide that you were ready to leave NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] That’s a mighty big plane, isn’t it.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When did you decide that you were ready to leave NASA?

[User] Oh, about the time I left. Several people I had noticed when they got old they sort of didn’t fit with other people anymore, and then that appeared to me that I had gotten to be one of those. It was kind of hard for me to push myself to be one of the group or whatever. Anyway, I came to the conclusion that I should be leaving. I don’t think Jeanne wanted me to retire at the time I did, but I think I was passing seventy, and I knew that I should.

[Assistant] Are you still flying now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, about the time I left. Several people I had noticed when they got old they sort of didn’t fit with other people anymore, and then that appeared to me that I had gotten to be one of those. It was kind of hard for me to push myself to be one of the group or whatever. Anyway, I came to the conclusion that I should be leaving. I don’t think Jeanne wanted me to retire at the time I did, but I think I was passing seventy, and I knew that I should.

[Assistant] Are you still flying now?

[User] Yes. It’s a little airplane. I don’t fly it enough, but I got spoiled all those years that somebody else paid for everything.

[Assistant] Yes. [Laughs]

[User]
I’m going to interrupt. Did you tell them that you fly for Angel Flight?

Say again?

Angel Flight?

Yes.

[Assistant] Tell us about Angel Flight.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t think so.

[Assistant] Jeanne, is there anything else you can think of he didn’t add?

[User] I don’t know. Did he talk about the B-57 a lot and the Guppy?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He did something helicopter flying. He didn’t talk about that, but George [W. S. Abbey] comes in on that one.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about the helicopter flying? Was that different for you to fly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know. Did he talk about the B-57 a lot and the Guppy?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] He did something helicopter flying. He didn’t talk about that, but George [W. S. Abbey] comes in on that one.

[Assistant] Do you want to talk about the helicopter flying? Was that different for you to fly?

[User] I will tell you one thing, and then I’m going to get out of here, is the T-38, he’s one of the few people or the only one that dead-stick landed the T-38. I don’t know if that’s—the pilots talk about that. That’s a pilot thing.

[Assistant] Where was the landing for the T-38 dead stick? Was that there at Ellington?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which was kind of neat, but we had a very unfortunate incident with a friend of mine in Mombasa where she went off on her own and she was raped. And it was awful. It was awful. And my mother, so I'm part of all this, this friend of mine was very close to me. And so I wanted to be with her and my mother wanted me to come home right away. And I said, no, Mom, I had, I think I had four months to go. I said, no, I have to finish my service. This is what I'm committed to. So we had a little bit of a falling out and a little bit of falling out when I got home. But you could understand from a parent's perspective why that would be. And the friend of mine that this happened to was, was not very smart. I mean, she shouldn't have gone off on her own. So there was some things there that, you had to be careful, be careful as a single woman as you do in most third world countries.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] So, again, I don't think it was a surprise. I think the location was probably a surprise. And I think that, you know, where are you going? Where is that? How far is that? You know, what's that like? Um, it was a very educational opportunity not only for me, but for my community and the people I was associated with, because I wrote lots and lots of letters of which my mother saved every single one of them.

[Assistant] Very cool.

[User] And it was really teaching them about this, you know, about Africa and vice versa. One of the things.

[Assistant] The third goal of Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So those were some of the things that they thought were a little bit odd and a little bit foreign. And the other thing was we used to give each other haircuts, and that was like a big day at lunchtime. So at lunchtime the kids. And of course the kids, when I first got there, they all looked the same. You know, they all kind of, they were wearing, they had uniforms. The man who started the school wanted the kids to have uniforms like the other schools. And so they all kind of had, you know, real, real short hair. And it was hard to tell, even the boys and the girls, except for the dresses and the.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And they couldn't understand how our hair would grow. And so they would take samples of it and hold it. And that was like a big deal. Every time somebody was getting a haircut, they'd all get in the circle and watch. I want to collect this hair. And one of my colleagues had blond hair and they thought that was really, really odd. You know, this, this, this different color hair. So, um, but it was a very, very positive. It was a very positive experience.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] It's very positive.

[Assistant] What was training like for you? What did you go through for training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And they couldn't understand how our hair would grow. And so they would take samples of it and hold it. And that was like a big deal. Every time somebody was getting a haircut, they'd all get in the circle and watch. I want to collect this hair. And one of my colleagues had blond hair and they thought that was really, really odd. You know, this, this, this different color hair. So, um, but it was a very, very positive. It was a very positive experience.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] It's very positive.

[Assistant] What was training like for you? What did you go through for training?

[User] Training was quite good. It was quite extensive. We spent, I think it was. I think it was, I don't, can't remember if it was four or six weeks at George Peabody College in Nashville, Tennessee, which now is part of Vanderbilt. But at the time it's where all the assessments came out for special education, the George Peabody assessments.

[Assistant] So this was the five of you who ended up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's very positive.

[Assistant] What was training like for you? What did you go through for training?

[User] Training was quite good. It was quite extensive. We spent, I think it was. I think it was, I don't, can't remember if it was four or six weeks at George Peabody College in Nashville, Tennessee, which now is part of Vanderbilt. But at the time it's where all the assessments came out for special education, the George Peabody assessments.

[Assistant] So this was the five of you who ended up?

[User] No, actually it was the whole group. It was the five of us, plus most of them were education or ag volunteers. Mostly education, mostly math. Most, mostly math and science teachers. But they had it at George Peabody. And I mean, I was thrilled because it was just such a cool school. And we got some really neat experiences, you know, in terms of practicals and things.

[Assistant] How big was your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we were always kind of doing a little bit of special program off to the side a little bit. But I think the training was good. I think we, um, I felt that the special education aspect was new. I think it was a new program for the Peace Corps. So I think they invested some time into that. I do remember the vaccinations we had to get, and my roommate had a huge reaction because they were using duck embryo for the first time and she passed out and I didn't know what to do. And it was, you know, so I was a little concerned with what was that vaccination and why didn't they check on that a little bit more before we, before we got that.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] But so we had the training there and then we got over to Kenya and we had another, I think it was another three weeks at Kenya Science Teachers College. And that was mostly language. That was really the culture and the language. And when I got there to Kenya, I got horrible dysentery. And I don't even remember the first three days because all I did was throw up and poop for.

[Assistant] Yeah, ugh.

[User] It was terrible. It was. And I thought I was dying. I just wanted to go home. So the very first, like it was probably like the first week there I don't remember.

[Assistant] Welcome to Kenya.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But so we had the training there and then we got over to Kenya and we had another, I think it was another three weeks at Kenya Science Teachers College. And that was mostly language. That was really the culture and the language. And when I got there to Kenya, I got horrible dysentery. And I don't even remember the first three days because all I did was throw up and poop for.

[Assistant] Yeah, ugh.

[User] It was terrible. It was. And I thought I was dying. I just wanted to go home. So the very first, like it was probably like the first week there I don't remember.

[Assistant] Welcome to Kenya.

[User]
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't, I, I don't even remember. And I remember being dropped off, um, at this little flat. We didn't live with families, those of us that were part of the school. We lived in this little complex. And I remember I had this trunk that I brought when I was at the, um, at the airport. I had a backpack and it was an old Boy Scout backpack and it was packed. And I had a trunk that I brought. And I remember going to take the backpack off to weigh it. And I fell. And I was, I couldn't get up it was so heavy. And the thing was moving underneath and it was tickling me. I was laughing and I could not get up, I remember. And I didn't know anybody at the time, but people remember that at the airport there was this woman laying there laughing.

And then I remember they dropped me off at this little flat and they put my, you know, my backpack and my trunk down. And there I was by myself. And outside there was this big Maasai warrior guard, you know, that walked around the complex. And I thought, what the heck am I doing? You know, it was a little bit, a little bit unnerving because you were by yourself, you know, it wasn't like you were with a family and all of a sudden, you know.

[Assistant] So all the 20 some odd that were in your group were all had their own little flat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, yeah, I couldn't, I, I don't even remember. And I remember being dropped off, um, at this little flat. We didn't live with families, those of us that were part of the school. We lived in this little complex. And I remember I had this trunk that I brought when I was at the, um, at the airport. I had a backpack and it was an old Boy Scout backpack and it was packed. And I had a trunk that I brought. And I remember going to take the backpack off to weigh it. And I fell. And I was, I couldn't get up it was so heavy. And the thing was moving underneath and it was tickling me. I was laughing and I could not get up, I remember. And I didn't know anybody at the time, but people remember that at the airport there was this woman laying there laughing.

And then I remember they dropped me off at this little flat and they put my, you know, my backpack and my trunk down. And there I was by myself. And outside there was this big Maasai warrior guard, you know, that walked around the complex. And I thought, what the heck am I doing? You know, it was a little bit, a little bit unnerving because you were by yourself, you know, it wasn't like you were with a family and all of a sudden, you know.

[Assistant] So all the 20 some odd that were in your group were all had their own little flat?

[User] No, no. That, the group, the teachers all went up country.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] They all went up country and they either had housing at the school or they stayed with a family. So they had the typical Peace Corps experience, because this was outside of Nairobi.

[Assistant] So this was your five that were the special?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. That, the group, the teachers all went up country.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] They all went up country and they either had housing at the school or they stayed with a family. So they had the typical Peace Corps experience, because this was outside of Nairobi.

[Assistant] So this was your five that were the special?

[User] Yeah, well, we all weren't there. Three. There were, there were the three of us that were at, we had to choose the school. And once we chose that school, we lived in this flat. There were probably about 12 units near the school.

[Assistant] So this was after the language training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They all went up country and they either had housing at the school or they stayed with a family. So they had the typical Peace Corps experience, because this was outside of Nairobi.

[Assistant] So this was your five that were the special?

[User] Yeah, well, we all weren't there. Three. There were, there were the three of us that were at, we had to choose the school. And once we chose that school, we lived in this flat. There were probably about 12 units near the school.

[Assistant] So this was after the language training?

[User] Yes, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. That's, that's where I was a little confused.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, we all weren't there. Three. There were, there were the three of us that were at, we had to choose the school. And once we chose that school, we lived in this flat. There were probably about 12 units near the school.

[Assistant] So this was after the language training?

[User] Yes, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. That's, that's where I was a little confused.

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was after, after the, after the language training and after the, that was the first days, you know, when you're kind of on your own. But the training I thought was, um, was worthwhile. And I think they, I think they did a good job of, of kind of keeping us together as a group and also kind of giving us, you know, we did a lot of Swahili training and we did a lot of cultural training.

[Assistant] So Swahili was the.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, yes, yes.

[Assistant] Okay. That's, that's where I was a little confused.

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was after, after the, after the language training and after the, that was the first days, you know, when you're kind of on your own. But the training I thought was, um, was worthwhile. And I think they, I think they did a good job of, of kind of keeping us together as a group and also kind of giving us, you know, we did a lot of Swahili training and we did a lot of cultural training.

[Assistant] So Swahili was the.

[User] Well, they spoke English because it was a British colony. So it wasn't like you had to speak, you know. But the kids all knew Swahili. And there are about 42, I think, tribal languages. So most of these kids could speak other languages, but most people could speak Swahili. So you really had to know Swahili and English, because a lot of people spoke English as well. So it was kind of a combination. But the interesting thing was that the, um, the assessments and all when we got to the school, there wasn't anything. So all of us said, you know, you know.

[Assistant] Here's the kids.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was after, after the, after the language training and after the, that was the first days, you know, when you're kind of on your own. But the training I thought was, um, was worthwhile. And I think they, I think they did a good job of, of kind of keeping us together as a group and also kind of giving us, you know, we did a lot of Swahili training and we did a lot of cultural training.

[Assistant] So Swahili was the.

[User] Well, they spoke English because it was a British colony. So it wasn't like you had to speak, you know. But the kids all knew Swahili. And there are about 42, I think, tribal languages. So most of these kids could speak other languages, but most people could speak Swahili. So you really had to know Swahili and English, because a lot of people spoke English as well. So it was kind of a combination. But the interesting thing was that the, um, the assessments and all when we got to the school, there wasn't anything. So all of us said, you know, you know.

[Assistant] Here's the kids.

[User] Yeah, right. And you know, you know of other assessments and personality. But, but none of that had any significance. And we took, we all brought all that not thinking. So we're saying, okay, if the kid had to identify, is this a television? Well, they wouldn't know, you know. So we, actually one of the side things that we'd do, one the fun things was we developed our own assessments based on Swahili, which was kind of fun, you know, where we tried to.

[Assistant] More culturally sensitive.