[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I can just continue?

[Assistant] Well, I was going to ask you to think back to the year just prior to going into Peace Corps and think back and maybe talk a little bit about your childhood, your education, things previous to Peace Corps.

[User] Mm hmm. OK. I didn't say much about my family, should I go back to that?

[Assistant] Oh yeah, go for it. Go back to that.

[User] I sort of left them out, concentrating on my own experiences. Well, I'm married to a fellow Peace Corps volunteer. We met in our project. Bernadette Spanuello. I was working with teachers and I was working in the studio producing the programs. But we've been married 42 years and have two grown children and three grandchildren. Four grandchildren, they're multiplying faster than I can keep up with. Three of whom are right in Boston, so that's another reason we wanted to participate in the Archives project. So and that's about it in terms of family. I live in Lawrenceville, Georgia. Atlanta metro area, delightful place. But going back to the other question. Leading up to Peace Corps, how far back would you want me?

[Assistant] Just like the year before.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As far as the Peace Corps volunteers and perceptions and conflict in a sense, even though it wasn't major. The nature of our work, at least for the, well, the teachers as well. There were three. Our project was divided into three groups, the producer directors who worked with Colombian teachers and television people in the studio in Bogota. And then there were technicians that helped keep the TV sets working in the schools throughout the country. And we did broadcast, by the way, to 97 percent of Colombia at the time, which was, when I think back on the primitive technology, but compared to what we have now is really amazing that we were reaching 97 percent of the population in education, standardized instruction.

[Assistant] Is this radio or TV?

[User] Television, television only. So we had the producer directors in Bogota, we had the técnicos as we called them. And then another large contingent of our project were utilization workers who helped teachers in the classroom incorporate television into their instruction and how to use it and their readings and motivate the students and do all of that. So just the nature of our work, working with teachers and working in Bogota at the studios and with other professionals. You know, it was unlike other typical, what you would think of as a typical Peace Corps project, raising chickens and building bridges. So there was somewhat of a, uh, not animosity necessarily, but we were looked upon by many of the other volunteers as not true Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Because you weren't in the trenches?

[User] We weren't out in the campo as they called it. Well, you know Spanish. We weren't getting our hands dirty, you know, we were working in more of a professional setting. So we were quite often looked down on as not real Peace Corps. They're not real Peace Corps, they're in the city, living in apartments and living it up. But we didn't live up because we got, we were all paid the same, whether you lived out in the country with a family and had absolutely nothing to spend your money on. Or lived in Bogota, which is barely scraping through.

[Assistant] More expensive, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Television, television only. So we had the producer directors in Bogota, we had the técnicos as we called them. And then another large contingent of our project were utilization workers who helped teachers in the classroom incorporate television into their instruction and how to use it and their readings and motivate the students and do all of that. So just the nature of our work, working with teachers and working in Bogota at the studios and with other professionals. You know, it was unlike other typical, what you would think of as a typical Peace Corps project, raising chickens and building bridges. So there was somewhat of a, uh, not animosity necessarily, but we were looked upon by many of the other volunteers as not true Peace Corps volunteers.

[Assistant] Because you weren't in the trenches?

[User] We weren't out in the campo as they called it. Well, you know Spanish. We weren't getting our hands dirty, you know, we were working in more of a professional setting. So we were quite often looked down on as not real Peace Corps. They're not real Peace Corps, they're in the city, living in apartments and living it up. But we didn't live up because we got, we were all paid the same, whether you lived out in the country with a family and had absolutely nothing to spend your money on. Or lived in Bogota, which is barely scraping through.

[Assistant] More expensive, yeah.

[User] With apartments and other expenses that we had. But we were all paid the same, so that was another somewhat, uh, bone of contention between the two camps.

[Assistant] Well, if I could ask you to go back to your, uh, and I guess probably the most curious question for any returned Peace Corps volunteer is why did you want to join the Peace Corps? What was your motivation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] That's great.

[User] And it just so happened that I mentioned that I have always been an organist. When I got, that came in, uh, very well and that was very useful as well in Colombia. Because at the time, and it's sort of still true, there were no well-trained organists in the country. I think partly because I think it was primarily a Catholic country and they didn't really emphasize, although there were lots of organs all over the place, there were very few, if any, really good organists. And so I was able to teach organ during the downtimes. As you probably know, you have quite a bit of downtime in the Peace Corps. So during school vacations or other times when we weren't doing anything in this new television, and sometimes this could be several weeks at a time, I was able to fill that time by teaching organ at the National Conservatory. And I also played concerts in Bogota and a couple of the other cities because it just so happened that the Banco de la Republica shortly after we arrived had built a new concert hall and imported a pipe organ from Germany and installed it. And there was really no one to play that. So I played several concerts and also taught in Bogota and Ibagué, which has the conservatory, down in the Tolima province. So I like to stay busy as you can tell.

[Assistant] Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned. Well, let me ask you. So it sounds like you heard about the Peace Corps from your friend Bill.

[User] Hetzer, yes.

[Assistant] So what, as far as the process for you, what was that process like? I know the background check got a little sidetracked, but what did you have to do in order to get in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it just so happened that I mentioned that I have always been an organist. When I got, that came in, uh, very well and that was very useful as well in Colombia. Because at the time, and it's sort of still true, there were no well-trained organists in the country. I think partly because I think it was primarily a Catholic country and they didn't really emphasize, although there were lots of organs all over the place, there were very few, if any, really good organists. And so I was able to teach organ during the downtimes. As you probably know, you have quite a bit of downtime in the Peace Corps. So during school vacations or other times when we weren't doing anything in this new television, and sometimes this could be several weeks at a time, I was able to fill that time by teaching organ at the National Conservatory. And I also played concerts in Bogota and a couple of the other cities because it just so happened that the Banco de la Republica shortly after we arrived had built a new concert hall and imported a pipe organ from Germany and installed it. And there was really no one to play that. So I played several concerts and also taught in Bogota and Ibagué, which has the conservatory, down in the Tolima province. So I like to stay busy as you can tell.

[Assistant] Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned. Well, let me ask you. So it sounds like you heard about the Peace Corps from your friend Bill.

[User] Hetzer, yes.

[Assistant] So what, as far as the process for you, what was that process like? I know the background check got a little sidetracked, but what did you have to do in order to get in?

[User] I frankly don't remember. I mean, there must have been some forms to fill out at some point that we mailed in. But I just I don't remember the details of the application or interview process.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Maybe it was easier for you back then.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hetzer, yes.

[Assistant] So what, as far as the process for you, what was that process like? I know the background check got a little sidetracked, but what did you have to do in order to get in?

[User] I frankly don't remember. I mean, there must have been some forms to fill out at some point that we mailed in. But I just I don't remember the details of the application or interview process.

[Assistant] Oh, OK. Maybe it was easier for you back then.

[User] It might have been.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that's good. It sounds like it probably wasn't, it was something that was just a side note. Um, do you remember, you know, back in the early sixties, you mentioned and you referred to it as a Peace Corps project. Was there any political or social kind of, you know, what was the climate back then as far as the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It might have been.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, that's good. It sounds like it probably wasn't, it was something that was just a side note. Um, do you remember, you know, back in the early sixties, you mentioned and you referred to it as a Peace Corps project. Was there any political or social kind of, you know, what was the climate back then as far as the Peace Corps?

[User] In the U.S.?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Or in Colombia?

[Assistant] Well, I was thinking about the U.S. and you were obviously in the early years of the Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the U.S.?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Or in Colombia?

[Assistant] Well, I was thinking about the U.S. and you were obviously in the early years of the Peace Corps.

[User] Well, this was '65, of course. And by then, you know, Kennedy had been assassinated. And there was a lot of turmoil and he was still very much revered by the younger generation especially and also revered in Colombia. I mean, we would visit a home and, if I recall correctly, there would be a picture of like the Pope and then John F. Kennedy in almost every Colombian home. So they loved Kennedy, again. So it was, his legacy was still very much alive in '65. I was not really involved in politics or, you know, protests against, protesting against the Vietnam War. I'd not gotten involved in those kinds of things at the time. I'm not sure why, but I was just concentrating on my work and school.

[Assistant] Sure. What was the reaction like your family and friends, like when you told them you were going overseas for two years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Or in Colombia?

[Assistant] Well, I was thinking about the U.S. and you were obviously in the early years of the Peace Corps.

[User] Well, this was '65, of course. And by then, you know, Kennedy had been assassinated. And there was a lot of turmoil and he was still very much revered by the younger generation especially and also revered in Colombia. I mean, we would visit a home and, if I recall correctly, there would be a picture of like the Pope and then John F. Kennedy in almost every Colombian home. So they loved Kennedy, again. So it was, his legacy was still very much alive in '65. I was not really involved in politics or, you know, protests against, protesting against the Vietnam War. I'd not gotten involved in those kinds of things at the time. I'm not sure why, but I was just concentrating on my work and school.

[Assistant] Sure. What was the reaction like your family and friends, like when you told them you were going overseas for two years?

[User] They already knew I was crazy because I went from a small town in Texas to Boston, to Boston University to study. And so they already knew I was somewhat of a free spirit. So my immediate family, I'm sure, was not at all surprised. But when I brought my wife- to-be home to this small town, the neighbors said, well, why would you want to marry a Yankee? We have so many southern girls here. So I was always somewhat of a rebel, I guess.

[Assistant] They expected it of you I guess.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, this was '65, of course. And by then, you know, Kennedy had been assassinated. And there was a lot of turmoil and he was still very much revered by the younger generation especially and also revered in Colombia. I mean, we would visit a home and, if I recall correctly, there would be a picture of like the Pope and then John F. Kennedy in almost every Colombian home. So they loved Kennedy, again. So it was, his legacy was still very much alive in '65. I was not really involved in politics or, you know, protests against, protesting against the Vietnam War. I'd not gotten involved in those kinds of things at the time. I'm not sure why, but I was just concentrating on my work and school.

[Assistant] Sure. What was the reaction like your family and friends, like when you told them you were going overseas for two years?

[User] They already knew I was crazy because I went from a small town in Texas to Boston, to Boston University to study. And so they already knew I was somewhat of a free spirit. So my immediate family, I'm sure, was not at all surprised. But when I brought my wife- to-be home to this small town, the neighbors said, well, why would you want to marry a Yankee? We have so many southern girls here. So I was always somewhat of a rebel, I guess.

[Assistant] They expected it of you I guess.

[User] They weren't surprised, I mean.

[Assistant] Was there any hesitation on your part or any trepidation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They already knew I was crazy because I went from a small town in Texas to Boston, to Boston University to study. And so they already knew I was somewhat of a free spirit. So my immediate family, I'm sure, was not at all surprised. But when I brought my wife- to-be home to this small town, the neighbors said, well, why would you want to marry a Yankee? We have so many southern girls here. So I was always somewhat of a rebel, I guess.

[Assistant] They expected it of you I guess.

[User] They weren't surprised, I mean.

[Assistant] Was there any hesitation on your part or any trepidation?

[User] Not at all. Oh, I was so excited. I loved to travel. I loved to fly. I loved Spanish and I loved to. I'd just been to Europe for the first time the previous summer, actually, in '64. The summer of '64, I spent six weeks in Europe where my twin brother was studying organ on a Fulbright scholarship in Germany. And so I visited him and went all over Europe and I loved it. Had a Eurail pass, which I bought a 30 day Eurail pass, but nobody really checked the dates, so I used it for six months.

[Assistant] That's great. Well, so tell me a little bit more about your training, how big was your training group and it says you mentioned that you had training at L.A. State. Did you live in dorms or what was your training like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The training group, first of all, first of all. Very, very interesting, creative bunch of people who are just, to this day, just phenomenal. But this group of people got together at that time and they're still very close. We had, just to give you an example on the side, we had a reunion two or three years ago and more than 50 percent of our group shoed up there. And that was in Washington, D.C. So that's how close we were.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
And we've lost a few, very few though, considering the age group, but I think we've only lost two or three. Passed away, but it was a fascinating group of people. I think, uh. [to his wife, Bernadette Thompson] Bunny, correct me if you hear me say something wrong. Fifty seven or so?

I've been biting my tongue.

Sixty four? How many were in our group?

There were 42 utilization people. And there were about 11 tecnicos and there were probably, um.

Six?

Yeah. There were 11 producer directors and about six tecnicos. About 42 utilization people who were former teachers.

Right around 60, 62.

Yeah.

Now, of course, those were the ones that finished the project. I'm not sure, a few were, um. Peace Corps at the time had a very, very government sounding term. You weren't. You were never rejected. They had a selection process that took place, but you were never rejected. You were "deselected," which I thought was a wonderful government type term.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Um, so that was somewhat nerve-racking, whether you were going to make the next cut or not.

[Assistant] Like American Idol or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User]
What did Ken Wiseman do?

And another guy, Ken Wiseman, became a very talented producer director type, came back and somehow hooked up with another person in New York, and he was the original producer of Grease on Broadway.

[Assistant] That's funny.

[User]
Yeah, he was the producer on some other Broadway shows and things. And then Bill Hetzer, our dear friend, went to UNICEF and had a career as UNICEF's communications director. And then another guy, another one of our producers, is still working actually as well. Steve Shepherd is an editor for CBS and 60 Minutes and some other programs, videotape editor. And um, who else?

Did you mention Steve Shepherd, Bill Hetzer?

Yeah, yeah. Steve Shepherd, Bill Hetzer.

Ken Wiseman.

Ken Wiseman. And those are, I guess, some of the outstanding ones.

Those are the ones you might know. They're all enormously talented.

One other guy was a broadcaster, a commentator or newsman, on ABC Radio and also taught journalism at Boston University.

Remember Jack Marrow?

Well, yeah, I don't know much about what he did. Something in health care, got his PhD in health policy or health something, public health or something. So again, we just had some very, very gifted and talented people who were really interesting.

[Assistant] How did the whole deselection process happen? Did it start there in L.A.?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
What did Ken Wiseman do?

And another guy, Ken Wiseman, became a very talented producer director type, came back and somehow hooked up with another person in New York, and he was the original producer of Grease on Broadway.

[Assistant] That's funny.

[User]
Yeah, he was the producer on some other Broadway shows and things. And then Bill Hetzer, our dear friend, went to UNICEF and had a career as UNICEF's communications director. And then another guy, another one of our producers, is still working actually as well. Steve Shepherd is an editor for CBS and 60 Minutes and some other programs, videotape editor. And um, who else?

Did you mention Steve Shepherd, Bill Hetzer?

Yeah, yeah. Steve Shepherd, Bill Hetzer.

Ken Wiseman.

Ken Wiseman. And those are, I guess, some of the outstanding ones.

Those are the ones you might know. They're all enormously talented.

One other guy was a broadcaster, a commentator or newsman, on ABC Radio and also taught journalism at Boston University.

Remember Jack Marrow?

Well, yeah, I don't know much about what he did. Something in health care, got his PhD in health policy or health something, public health or something. So again, we just had some very, very gifted and talented people who were really interesting.

[Assistant] How did the whole deselection process happen? Did it start there in L.A.?

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, I heard somebody else mention hatchet men. It was another sixties volunteer, and she said that's what they used to call the.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah.

[Assistant] I mean, I heard somebody else mention hatchet men. It was another sixties volunteer, and she said that's what they used to call the.

[User] Well, I don't think we called them hatchet men. But at that time, and this might be interesting to some of the current volunteers. At that time, when you joined the Peace Corps, you went through training and they had some interviews and psychological evaluations and things at least two or three different times. And we lost, one phase where we might lose one or two people, and the next step we might lose two or three more, that were deselected. And then finally, you know, there's more further accepting this position. Finally, if you made it to the very end and you were finally in, you know, were in for good. Then you made plans to go on to Colombia. I understand now that they send them to the country, they're thinking. Well see, we, that's not. We didn't go to Colombia until after. The training and then Colombia. There was no back and forth or pre-exposure to the country. But I think that sounds good because of course, we had a few people who went to Colombia and for various reasons came home early for some reason. Some got married or that had family problems back here or something.

[Assistant] Now they do all the weeding out before you go, so only the people who are going to the country are the ones that have been, had the background check and passed all the psychological tests and stuff like that.

[User] So that's, yeah, well, that's our process was like, but you didn't go to the country.

[Assistant] Right. Well, we didn't even go to training because all the training now is done in country. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don't think we called them hatchet men. But at that time, and this might be interesting to some of the current volunteers. At that time, when you joined the Peace Corps, you went through training and they had some interviews and psychological evaluations and things at least two or three different times. And we lost, one phase where we might lose one or two people, and the next step we might lose two or three more, that were deselected. And then finally, you know, there's more further accepting this position. Finally, if you made it to the very end and you were finally in, you know, were in for good. Then you made plans to go on to Colombia. I understand now that they send them to the country, they're thinking. Well see, we, that's not. We didn't go to Colombia until after. The training and then Colombia. There was no back and forth or pre-exposure to the country. But I think that sounds good because of course, we had a few people who went to Colombia and for various reasons came home early for some reason. Some got married or that had family problems back here or something.

[Assistant] Now they do all the weeding out before you go, so only the people who are going to the country are the ones that have been, had the background check and passed all the psychological tests and stuff like that.

[User] So that's, yeah, well, that's our process was like, but you didn't go to the country.

[Assistant] Right. Well, we didn't even go to training because all the training now is done in country. Yeah.

[User]
It seems like there was something else that I was going to mention about training.

[inaudible]

They disappeared in the middle of the night.

[Assistant] They couldn't say goodbye to you or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that's, yeah, well, that's our process was like, but you didn't go to the country.

[Assistant] Right. Well, we didn't even go to training because all the training now is done in country. Yeah.

[User]
It seems like there was something else that I was going to mention about training.

[inaudible]

They disappeared in the middle of the night.

[Assistant] They couldn't say goodbye to you or anything?

[User]
No, they disappeared.

In the night, they did. If they weren't in place at 8:00 in the morning, we knew.

Like a little archipelago. It was just.

And we lost, not a lot. It was almost predictable. We were a very young group. I was one of the oldest of the young group. I was 29. And the youngest had not graduated or had just gotten out of high school. And we had one 70 year old woman who made it, did very well.

[Assistant] A 70 year old man?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It seems like there was something else that I was going to mention about training.

[inaudible]

They disappeared in the middle of the night.

[Assistant] They couldn't say goodbye to you or anything?

[User]
No, they disappeared.

In the night, they did. If they weren't in place at 8:00 in the morning, we knew.

Like a little archipelago. It was just.

And we lost, not a lot. It was almost predictable. We were a very young group. I was one of the oldest of the young group. I was 29. And the youngest had not graduated or had just gotten out of high school. And we had one 70 year old woman who made it, did very well.

[Assistant] A 70 year old man?

[User]
Woman, lady. Rita Shields. And then we had one older gentleman who was a former Army person, military man, and he did not make it.

His first objective was to set up a spy network in Colombia. That's what he was going to do.

[Assistant] Wow. No conflict there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, they disappeared.

In the night, they did. If they weren't in place at 8:00 in the morning, we knew.

Like a little archipelago. It was just.

And we lost, not a lot. It was almost predictable. We were a very young group. I was one of the oldest of the young group. I was 29. And the youngest had not graduated or had just gotten out of high school. And we had one 70 year old woman who made it, did very well.

[Assistant] A 70 year old man?

[User]
Woman, lady. Rita Shields. And then we had one older gentleman who was a former Army person, military man, and he did not make it.

His first objective was to set up a spy network in Colombia. That's what he was going to do.

[Assistant] Wow. No conflict there.

[User]
But it was scary. Yeah, it was nerve wracking, upsetting, for some of us.

Because you didn't know until the very end, if you were going to go or not, after going after doing all that work.

And try to explain that to your parents.

[Assistant] Yeah. How long was the training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Woman, lady. Rita Shields. And then we had one older gentleman who was a former Army person, military man, and he did not make it.

His first objective was to set up a spy network in Colombia. That's what he was going to do.

[Assistant] Wow. No conflict there.

[User]
But it was scary. Yeah, it was nerve wracking, upsetting, for some of us.

Because you didn't know until the very end, if you were going to go or not, after going after doing all that work.

And try to explain that to your parents.

[Assistant] Yeah. How long was the training?

[User]
[inaudible]

It was. It was. And we were in Puerto Rico. They went directly over and I forgot that part.

You went to more interim training. The teachers.

The 42 utilization people, the teachers, went to Puerto Rico to work in the school system for 30 days.

[Assistant] That's a good idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
But it was scary. Yeah, it was nerve wracking, upsetting, for some of us.

Because you didn't know until the very end, if you were going to go or not, after going after doing all that work.

And try to explain that to your parents.

[Assistant] Yeah. How long was the training?

[User]
[inaudible]

It was. It was. And we were in Puerto Rico. They went directly over and I forgot that part.

You went to more interim training. The teachers.

The 42 utilization people, the teachers, went to Puerto Rico to work in the school system for 30 days.

[Assistant] That's a good idea.

[User] Before, and the television men went directly from training to the television studio in Bogota, and they worked always in Bogota. The 42 of us went all over the country. As did the tecnicos, when they weren't falling through the roof. It happens.

[Assistant] Well, so when you got in-country though, did you have translators that were working with you or you were just working with in-country folks and it was all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
[inaudible]

It was. It was. And we were in Puerto Rico. They went directly over and I forgot that part.

You went to more interim training. The teachers.

The 42 utilization people, the teachers, went to Puerto Rico to work in the school system for 30 days.

[Assistant] That's a good idea.

[User] Before, and the television men went directly from training to the television studio in Bogota, and they worked always in Bogota. The 42 of us went all over the country. As did the tecnicos, when they weren't falling through the roof. It happens.

[Assistant] Well, so when you got in-country though, did you have translators that were working with you or you were just working with in-country folks and it was all?

[User] Oh, we were totally on our own to find our own apartment, buy our furniture and to get settled and then start working. And then we were assigned. We had a project director, Stanley Hamelman. And so we were assigned, the producer directors, were assigned certain programs to work with the Colombian teachers on. So I had second and third grade math, that television series, so I would meet with the instructor, the Colombian math teacher. And of course, you know about the concept of time is, trying to get broadcasts on the air, on time, trying to get teachers' guides published and written and distributed nationwide on time is always quite an experience. Because time meant nothing to them. So in television, time is everything. So there was a cultural, you know, cultural clash there in terms of punctuality, getting things rehearsed on tape. Sometimes the equipment would break down and it didn't work and then we'd have to videotape the next day or some other time. It had its challenges.

[Assistant] I'm sure. Coming from a non-production director kind of background, can you tell me a little bit more about what you did specifically? Like what was your? Cause you mentioned doing second and third grade math.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Before, and the television men went directly from training to the television studio in Bogota, and they worked always in Bogota. The 42 of us went all over the country. As did the tecnicos, when they weren't falling through the roof. It happens.

[Assistant] Well, so when you got in-country though, did you have translators that were working with you or you were just working with in-country folks and it was all?

[User] Oh, we were totally on our own to find our own apartment, buy our furniture and to get settled and then start working. And then we were assigned. We had a project director, Stanley Hamelman. And so we were assigned, the producer directors, were assigned certain programs to work with the Colombian teachers on. So I had second and third grade math, that television series, so I would meet with the instructor, the Colombian math teacher. And of course, you know about the concept of time is, trying to get broadcasts on the air, on time, trying to get teachers' guides published and written and distributed nationwide on time is always quite an experience. Because time meant nothing to them. So in television, time is everything. So there was a cultural, you know, cultural clash there in terms of punctuality, getting things rehearsed on tape. Sometimes the equipment would break down and it didn't work and then we'd have to videotape the next day or some other time. It had its challenges.

[Assistant] I'm sure. Coming from a non-production director kind of background, can you tell me a little bit more about what you did specifically? Like what was your? Cause you mentioned doing second and third grade math.

[User] OK.

[Assistant] I'm thinking like, you know, I'm thinking like TV production, and it is TV, but how did how did that work? How was your project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It was relatively, the concept of educational television was new. And at that time, they only had one television station and it was government owned. It was a government station. Now it's like here, they have multiple stations for different things. But at that time, there was, um, they weren't using. Someone at AID, I believe, got, someone in the U.S. Government came across this realization that Colombia had this nationwide television system, but they were only using it at night for entertainment. So they would have entertainment type programs from the studios at night, but they weren't using it during the day at all. So someone, I don't know who, came up with the idea, why don't we use it during the day for education and help standardize the basic math and history and science and language and music education throughout the country with these enrichment programs?

So U.S. AID got involved in providing the television sets, and the Peace Corps got involved in providing the manpower to help produce. But what I failed to mention so far. The primary objective was to train Colombians to take over from us and to do it themselves. So that was really, even though we did all or most of it initially, our primary objective was to make ourselves obsolete. So the Colombians took it over, which they did, and they're still running it today.

[Assistant] They're still?

[User] Doing it, the Colombians are still doing it. It's more of a cultural channel now, rather than the instruction, classroom instruction. But the same basic operation is still continuing today. But in color, of course.

[Assistant] Yes. I just think about that because my parents got their first TV the year that I was born, which was in 1970, and we lived in Alaska. And to think about people in Colombia in '65 to '67, who were, you know, that's just amazing to me.

[User] It was amazing that they had that system for one thing, the nationwide broadcast system.

[Assistant] Yeah. Wow. So, um. Did you return to the United States at all during your two years overseas, for vacation?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Doing it, the Colombians are still doing it. It's more of a cultural channel now, rather than the instruction, classroom instruction. But the same basic operation is still continuing today. But in color, of course.

[Assistant] Yes. I just think about that because my parents got their first TV the year that I was born, which was in 1970, and we lived in Alaska. And to think about people in Colombia in '65 to '67, who were, you know, that's just amazing to me.

[User] It was amazing that they had that system for one thing, the nationwide broadcast system.

[Assistant] Yeah. Wow. So, um. Did you return to the United States at all during your two years overseas, for vacation?

[User] Oh no, we weren't allowed to. I mean, that's something else that may be different from the way it is now. Oh no. In fact, the whole, I guess, generational, of the whole mindset during that time, and I'm sure it goes back to the very beginning, but certainly prevalent during the '40s and '50s and '60s was that when you committed to something, you were expected to go through with it. I mean, there's no backing out. I mean, the thought of quitting.

[Assistant] Well, not quitting, but just coming home to see your family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was amazing that they had that system for one thing, the nationwide broadcast system.

[Assistant] Yeah. Wow. So, um. Did you return to the United States at all during your two years overseas, for vacation?

[User] Oh no, we weren't allowed to. I mean, that's something else that may be different from the way it is now. Oh no. In fact, the whole, I guess, generational, of the whole mindset during that time, and I'm sure it goes back to the very beginning, but certainly prevalent during the '40s and '50s and '60s was that when you committed to something, you were expected to go through with it. I mean, there's no backing out. I mean, the thought of quitting.

[Assistant] Well, not quitting, but just coming home to see your family?

[User]
No, no, no, no.

Even that. None of those things even entered our minds. And not only were they prohibited, we weren't allowed to come back to the States at all. But the whole concept again of cutting our service short, or quitting just because we didn't like it, would never enter our minds. Would never enter our minds.

Those with money went to Miami, so they went and had fun. They never thought of going home.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was more kind of a personal thing versus like a societal kind of, personal thing versus. Some people it sounds like may have gone on vacation, but um.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no, we weren't allowed to. I mean, that's something else that may be different from the way it is now. Oh no. In fact, the whole, I guess, generational, of the whole mindset during that time, and I'm sure it goes back to the very beginning, but certainly prevalent during the '40s and '50s and '60s was that when you committed to something, you were expected to go through with it. I mean, there's no backing out. I mean, the thought of quitting.

[Assistant] Well, not quitting, but just coming home to see your family?

[User]
No, no, no, no.

Even that. None of those things even entered our minds. And not only were they prohibited, we weren't allowed to come back to the States at all. But the whole concept again of cutting our service short, or quitting just because we didn't like it, would never enter our minds. Would never enter our minds.

Those with money went to Miami, so they went and had fun. They never thought of going home.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was more kind of a personal thing versus like a societal kind of, personal thing versus. Some people it sounds like may have gone on vacation, but um.

[User] Well, the. I'm not sure how to answer that. I think, well, first of all, we didn't have much money to travel. Secondly, we only had a certain number of travel days, vacation days. And we were working. It was a job, we were working and we had. But school was in session and we were producing programs, and there's no question that the program had to be. But even during vacation time, the Peace Corps office kept our passports. We couldn't go anywhere.

[Assistant] That's one way to make sure you don't leave the country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, no, no, no.

Even that. None of those things even entered our minds. And not only were they prohibited, we weren't allowed to come back to the States at all. But the whole concept again of cutting our service short, or quitting just because we didn't like it, would never enter our minds. Would never enter our minds.

Those with money went to Miami, so they went and had fun. They never thought of going home.

[Assistant] Yeah. So it was more kind of a personal thing versus like a societal kind of, personal thing versus. Some people it sounds like may have gone on vacation, but um.

[User] Well, the. I'm not sure how to answer that. I think, well, first of all, we didn't have much money to travel. Secondly, we only had a certain number of travel days, vacation days. And we were working. It was a job, we were working and we had. But school was in session and we were producing programs, and there's no question that the program had to be. But even during vacation time, the Peace Corps office kept our passports. We couldn't go anywhere.

[Assistant] That's one way to make sure you don't leave the country.

[User] And we did sneak out with our Peace Corps ID cards, and we only had certain number of international vacation days, like six or something, to go to. And I went to Venezuela, I went over to Caracas, and that was. And then we snuck out of Colombia on the strength of our Peace Corps ID cards, then to Ecuador, and almost didn't get back in because they stopped us at the border to get back in and held us. They were expecting a bribe, I think, is what they were expecting. But they held us and talked to us, and then I finally, since I was the most proficient in Spanish, finally negotiated our way out of Ecuador and back into Colombia.

[Assistant] So they didn't have to call the Peace Corps office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we did sneak out with our Peace Corps ID cards, and we only had certain number of international vacation days, like six or something, to go to. And I went to Venezuela, I went over to Caracas, and that was. And then we snuck out of Colombia on the strength of our Peace Corps ID cards, then to Ecuador, and almost didn't get back in because they stopped us at the border to get back in and held us. They were expecting a bribe, I think, is what they were expecting. But they held us and talked to us, and then I finally, since I was the most proficient in Spanish, finally negotiated our way out of Ecuador and back into Colombia.

[Assistant] So they didn't have to call the Peace Corps office?

[User]
No, they didn't have to.

They couldn't decide what color I was. You had to put your race down.

Oh yeah, we got some sort of little.

We had to get a card.

Some sort of visa.

A travel card.

To go into Ecuador.

And I was very suntanned and I [inaudible]. And they couldn't decide. They were just like, well, who is she? No blanco, no negro. Carmelita! They called me carmelita. That's my pet, my little Ecuadorian travel visa.

Was that to get into Ecuador or coming back? Oh, to get back in. We had to have some Ecuadorian travel card.

[Assistant] And they take your picture in the plaza of the whole city. You sit on a crate and somebody holds behind you a gray piece of cloth. And then there's a guy in front of you like this. And that's the picture.

[User]
He takes the lens off, the lens cap off and puts it back on, and that's the shutter.

That's the shutter.

[Assistant] How fun, though, wow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, they didn't have to.

They couldn't decide what color I was. You had to put your race down.

Oh yeah, we got some sort of little.

We had to get a card.

Some sort of visa.

A travel card.

To go into Ecuador.

And I was very suntanned and I [inaudible]. And they couldn't decide. They were just like, well, who is she? No blanco, no negro. Carmelita! They called me carmelita. That's my pet, my little Ecuadorian travel visa.

Was that to get into Ecuador or coming back? Oh, to get back in. We had to have some Ecuadorian travel card.

[Assistant] And they take your picture in the plaza of the whole city. You sit on a crate and somebody holds behind you a gray piece of cloth. And then there's a guy in front of you like this. And that's the picture.

[User]
He takes the lens off, the lens cap off and puts it back on, and that's the shutter.

That's the shutter.

[Assistant] How fun, though, wow.

[User] We were able to travel around Colombia, within the country, either on short vacations or we would have conferences periodically in different parts of the country. But our group would have a conference to get together and compare notes. And a lot of parents came down to visit. My parents came down, Bunny's parents came down a couple of times to visit us in country. So that was allowed.

[Assistant] Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the living conditions that you lived in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
He takes the lens off, the lens cap off and puts it back on, and that's the shutter.

That's the shutter.

[Assistant] How fun, though, wow.

[User] We were able to travel around Colombia, within the country, either on short vacations or we would have conferences periodically in different parts of the country. But our group would have a conference to get together and compare notes. And a lot of parents came down to visit. My parents came down, Bunny's parents came down a couple of times to visit us in country. So that was allowed.

[Assistant] Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the living conditions that you lived in?

[User] I had a small apartment in Bogota, halfway up the mountains, which we just we visited. It's still there, a year ago we took a trip to Colombia and checked it out. And the neighborhood is very much the same. It was on the third floor and, you know, it was OK. The only thing is that there was no heat generally in Colombia and Bogota, even though your first impression is, oh, it's just pleasantly cool. Eventually, the cold gets into your bones. And so it was that we were cold very much of the time. But I don't even think we had hot water, I don't remember having hot water.

[Assistant] Did you have indoor plumbing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were able to travel around Colombia, within the country, either on short vacations or we would have conferences periodically in different parts of the country. But our group would have a conference to get together and compare notes. And a lot of parents came down to visit. My parents came down, Bunny's parents came down a couple of times to visit us in country. So that was allowed.

[Assistant] Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the living conditions that you lived in?

[User] I had a small apartment in Bogota, halfway up the mountains, which we just we visited. It's still there, a year ago we took a trip to Colombia and checked it out. And the neighborhood is very much the same. It was on the third floor and, you know, it was OK. The only thing is that there was no heat generally in Colombia and Bogota, even though your first impression is, oh, it's just pleasantly cool. Eventually, the cold gets into your bones. And so it was that we were cold very much of the time. But I don't even think we had hot water, I don't remember having hot water.

[Assistant] Did you have indoor plumbing?

[User] Oh yeah, we had indoor plumbing. We had a kitchen with a little sink. We must have had hot water, I just don't remember how it was heated. But I know in many places that there's no hot water for showers. A shower only. And the water in Bogota was safe, it was considered safe to drink. So we were fortunate that we didn't have to worry about the water in Bogota. And now basically the whole country has a very safe water supply. I was always sick once, briefly. That was my only health problem. It was food poisoning for a day or two.

[Assistant] Who cooked your meals and what was a typical meal?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, we had indoor plumbing. We had a kitchen with a little sink. We must have had hot water, I just don't remember how it was heated. But I know in many places that there's no hot water for showers. A shower only. And the water in Bogota was safe, it was considered safe to drink. So we were fortunate that we didn't have to worry about the water in Bogota. And now basically the whole country has a very safe water supply. I was always sick once, briefly. That was my only health problem. It was food poisoning for a day or two.

[Assistant] Who cooked your meals and what was a typical meal?

[User]
We cooked. There was no refrigeration, no refrigerators. So we would shop for every meal. You would go out a fair amount, even though that could get expensive. But you would, if you prepared a meal, you'd have to go shop for that meal and prepare and eat it and then go shop again for the next meal. So it was sort of catch as catch can. I don't remember cooking in a whole lot. I know I did some.

Remember we had Rosario and we had Yo.

We had a cleaning lady.

Yeah, cleaning lady. She didn't cook but she would clean the sink, the dishes.

She'd come in once a week or so to clean. And I think she did our laundry, I'm not sure, because we had no laundry facilities.

Rosario did my laundry.

And there was like a dry cleaning place. I don't remember. Because it was such a hassle to cook.

[Assistant] How far into service did you guys get together as a couple?

[User] Oh, never. Oh, I didn't even know or like him.

[Assistant] You didn't start dating in Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We cooked. There was no refrigeration, no refrigerators. So we would shop for every meal. You would go out a fair amount, even though that could get expensive. But you would, if you prepared a meal, you'd have to go shop for that meal and prepare and eat it and then go shop again for the next meal. So it was sort of catch as catch can. I don't remember cooking in a whole lot. I know I did some.

Remember we had Rosario and we had Yo.

We had a cleaning lady.

Yeah, cleaning lady. She didn't cook but she would clean the sink, the dishes.

She'd come in once a week or so to clean. And I think she did our laundry, I'm not sure, because we had no laundry facilities.

Rosario did my laundry.

And there was like a dry cleaning place. I don't remember. Because it was such a hassle to cook.

[Assistant] How far into service did you guys get together as a couple?

[User] Oh, never. Oh, I didn't even know or like him.

[Assistant] You didn't start dating in Peace Corps?

[User]
Well, not officially.

Well, I'm sure we were in love but we never said anything.

Uh, let me elaborate on that. First of all, we were warned, as you know, some of the other volunteers ignored the warning and the inevitable happened. We were warned by Peace Corps officials about volunteer relationships.

And romances.

Romances, and especially marriages. So they said the record on Peace Corps marriages lasting after Peace Corps was very, very poor. So, you know, I wanted to be very careful not to jump into something that, you know, I'd already been warned was not likely to last. But we came back. And then I proposed after we came back home.

And I had to say to him, well, do you love me? I mean, the subject had never, ever been broached. And that was 42 years ago.

[Assistant] That's so awesome, wow.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, never. Oh, I didn't even know or like him.

[Assistant] You didn't start dating in Peace Corps?

[User]
Well, not officially.

Well, I'm sure we were in love but we never said anything.

Uh, let me elaborate on that. First of all, we were warned, as you know, some of the other volunteers ignored the warning and the inevitable happened. We were warned by Peace Corps officials about volunteer relationships.

And romances.

Romances, and especially marriages. So they said the record on Peace Corps marriages lasting after Peace Corps was very, very poor. So, you know, I wanted to be very careful not to jump into something that, you know, I'd already been warned was not likely to last. But we came back. And then I proposed after we came back home.

And I had to say to him, well, do you love me? I mean, the subject had never, ever been broached. And that was 42 years ago.

[Assistant] That's so awesome, wow.

[User]
Something else, many of our, well not many. In our group, there were two other marriages, two or three other marriages. Two did not last. And one is still going. And he is very, they're both very accomplished people, the Dalverers, and he's very active in keeping the group together, they're both Californians.

We get emails, we have email addresses for a large number of our group. A few have disappeared from, or say cannot be found.

You know, it's still the kind of thing where you could call any one of them at any time. You know, and say, look my child or my grandchild is in trouble in your city. Could you go over and just check on them. We've done that a couple of times. Steve Shepherd's son Jesse, helped them out. And it's that kind of thing with the camaraderie that you develop in the Marine Corps or the Jesuits or something like that, you know.

[Assistant] Bonding over a common experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, I don't know. We just, as young children, we started piano lessons when we were seven and we just always kind of, we must have just been born with that interest in music and listening to piano and organ specifically. And even before I could study an instrument, I would stack up, I would pull out a set of encyclopedias and set them up and pretend I was playing the piano.

It was a small town in Texas and it was hard to find, you know, outstanding teachers. This is an esoteric type pursuit.

[Assistant] What was the name of the community that you're from in Texas?

[User] Seagoville. It's a small town in Dallas County.

[Assistant] OK. Great. Well, obviously, you know, the three goals of Peace Corps. We always encourage returned volunteers to kind of evaluate their service in light of the three goals of Peace Corps. And obviously we just talked a moment ago about providing the technical assistance that was requested by the Colombian government. How do you feel in light of your service about promoting better understanding of the United States?

[User] Well, in terms of whether we were successful or not in that?

[Assistant] Just how you personally feel like your experiences in Colombia, you know, may have led to a better understanding of Americans.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, in terms of whether we were successful or not in that?

[Assistant] Just how you personally feel like your experiences in Colombia, you know, may have led to a better understanding of Americans.

[User]
Well, I think first of all, the Colombians had a very positive predisposition to Americans anyhow. They might not have always. I mean, they kept, they would remind us that we took Panama away from them regularly. But generally, they're very gracious people and they love Americans and they like the United States. They're still one of our closest allies in Latin America. Um, whether I was able to contribute to that, I don't know. I don't know. I would hope so. Because of my example and my working and giving of my time to help out.

They loved him. They had never seen anybody so tall, so blonde, with such blue eyes.

[Assistant] I bet.

[User]
Several of us were tall and we lived in the same neighborhood and the neighborhood kids especially would call us gigantes. Giants.

Bill was very, very well revered, especially for his leadership and his abilities in working with these maestras, these Colombian women, that were teachers and did not have any education themselves and were very anxious to learn, you know? So I think the men in the group made very, because they were gentlemen, quiet gentlemen, and nothing changed. And there was no big macho feeling in Peace Corps volunteer men, and that was very interesting, I think, you know, on the women, especially, you could see. And then the men in the studio who could see that you could get an enormous job done, you know, without, um.

Giving orders.

Without shouting.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were most of the teachers women or were some of them men?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Well, I think first of all, the Colombians had a very positive predisposition to Americans anyhow. They might not have always. I mean, they kept, they would remind us that we took Panama away from them regularly. But generally, they're very gracious people and they love Americans and they like the United States. They're still one of our closest allies in Latin America. Um, whether I was able to contribute to that, I don't know. I don't know. I would hope so. Because of my example and my working and giving of my time to help out.

They loved him. They had never seen anybody so tall, so blonde, with such blue eyes.

[Assistant] I bet.

[User]
Several of us were tall and we lived in the same neighborhood and the neighborhood kids especially would call us gigantes. Giants.

Bill was very, very well revered, especially for his leadership and his abilities in working with these maestras, these Colombian women, that were teachers and did not have any education themselves and were very anxious to learn, you know? So I think the men in the group made very, because they were gentlemen, quiet gentlemen, and nothing changed. And there was no big macho feeling in Peace Corps volunteer men, and that was very interesting, I think, you know, on the women, especially, you could see. And then the men in the studio who could see that you could get an enormous job done, you know, without, um.

Giving orders.

Without shouting.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were most of the teachers women or were some of them men?

[User]
One. There was one man, at least one. But did he teach history?

I don't know, but he was from a wealthy family, like the Amarals.

Amador.

Amador. Oh, forgive me.

The music teacher was.

Yeah. Amalia Santera.

[Assistant] So you mentioned going back to Colombia, was it last year? What has been your path back to your host country since you left service? Have you had communication or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Several of us were tall and we lived in the same neighborhood and the neighborhood kids especially would call us gigantes. Giants.

Bill was very, very well revered, especially for his leadership and his abilities in working with these maestras, these Colombian women, that were teachers and did not have any education themselves and were very anxious to learn, you know? So I think the men in the group made very, because they were gentlemen, quiet gentlemen, and nothing changed. And there was no big macho feeling in Peace Corps volunteer men, and that was very interesting, I think, you know, on the women, especially, you could see. And then the men in the studio who could see that you could get an enormous job done, you know, without, um.

Giving orders.

Without shouting.

[Assistant] Yeah. Were most of the teachers women or were some of them men?

[User]
One. There was one man, at least one. But did he teach history?

I don't know, but he was from a wealthy family, like the Amarals.

Amador.

Amador. Oh, forgive me.

The music teacher was.

Yeah. Amalia Santera.

[Assistant] So you mentioned going back to Colombia, was it last year? What has been your path back to your host country since you left service? Have you had communication or?

[User]
No. A lot of, some volunteers, in fact a very dear friend of mine who was in a different group, has stayed in touch with a lot of people down there. And I just, I didn't stay in touch with other Colombians or Colombians after I came back. I just got busy with other things. And of course, I was always interested in what was happening in Colombia. And I just, I read news stories, but I didn't. Other than joining the Peace Corps Friends of Colombia organization, of RPCVs. We stayed in touch with Peace Corps people.

Yes, they're our dearest friends.

But I never really stayed in touch with Colombians.

[Assistant] So talk a little bit about your trip back. It sounds like.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It's a control system. Very simple push button controller. You know, at home you have your handheld wireless remote for, say for your TV set. So imagine in a classroom or school system that's maybe hundreds if not thousands of classrooms and each one has this little handheld remote. They get lost, they get stolen. The batteries go dead. The handheld wireless remote is a disaster. We have developed a light switch looking thing that goes on the wall. So the teacher comes in the room and instead of fumbling around with a handheld remote, they just push a button to turn the video projector on or play a VCR or DVD. So it's a, it helps automate and helps make the use of this multimedia classroom easier to use. But it's not going to get lost. It's not going to die.

It's not sitting on a chair.

Or punch it with a ruler, that's what they did.

[Assistant] That's hilarious.

[User] So it's, again related to media, audiovisual communications, and education.

[Assistant] So what kind of long-term effects do you feel like your services had on you as a person and personally, you know, going overseas? And you know, how do you feel that you are different from becoming a Peace Corps volunteer?

[User] Well, I think I have a different perspective on foreign countries, for one thing, and what they're facing and some of the difficulties there. But also a different perspective on our own country and somewhat of a new, um, what's the right word? Caution or. Not cynical, but more of a cautious view of our press. Because one example we had in Colombia when we were there, Time magazine. There was a couple of thieves stopped a bus and robbed everybody and I think shot a couple of people. Well, these were just common highway robbers who had no political leanings of any kind, one way or the other. And the Time magazine article wrote them up as communist guerrillas. But they were just thugs, you know? So it made me wonder what else is our press doing to reinterpret what the facts were? So it made me very suspicious, I guess is the word.

[Assistant] Critical thinker, actually.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think I have a different perspective on foreign countries, for one thing, and what they're facing and some of the difficulties there. But also a different perspective on our own country and somewhat of a new, um, what's the right word? Caution or. Not cynical, but more of a cautious view of our press. Because one example we had in Colombia when we were there, Time magazine. There was a couple of thieves stopped a bus and robbed everybody and I think shot a couple of people. Well, these were just common highway robbers who had no political leanings of any kind, one way or the other. And the Time magazine article wrote them up as communist guerrillas. But they were just thugs, you know? So it made me wonder what else is our press doing to reinterpret what the facts were? So it made me very suspicious, I guess is the word.

[Assistant] Critical thinker, actually.

[User] What information was there and who's behind it and what is their motive?

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So going to this day [inaudible] and reading between the lines and watching a variety of opinions too.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well that sounds very intelligent to me. Definitely. Well, is there anything that we didn't cover in the interview or any other details? Or anything else that you'd like to share?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What information was there and who's behind it and what is their motive?

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So going to this day [inaudible] and reading between the lines and watching a variety of opinions too.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well that sounds very intelligent to me. Definitely. Well, is there anything that we didn't cover in the interview or any other details? Or anything else that you'd like to share?

[User]
The only thing and the only negative, I guess, would be that I never really adjusted, because of my personality and my type and my background and my work and my desire to get things done on time. I never really adjusted to the way that, a Latin American concept of time. That just really started to get on my nerves. To make an appointment with somebody then you show up and they're not even there. But you sit in their outer office for an hour before you can get in to see them. It's just, I never really adjusted to that.

That hasn't changed. When we were there last year, you were very good about it. Remember we made plans and we waited and we waited.

Oh, at the library. All I wanted to do was go back and to see the organ that I had played concerts on at the Biblioteca Luis Ángel Arango concert hall. I just wanted to go in and play it for a few minutes. I thought this was a very reasonable, non-threatening request. Well, I got the runaround. I never did get in the studio because the person that had to get that permission wasn't there. She was out of town. And at one point, didn't we go there and I thought she was in her office?

Oh sure.

The secretary.

They had us wait for a couple of hours. And she was out of town!

She wasn't even there. The secretary had us waiting.

For this person was never coming.

[Assistant] And she knew this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So going to this day [inaudible] and reading between the lines and watching a variety of opinions too.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well that sounds very intelligent to me. Definitely. Well, is there anything that we didn't cover in the interview or any other details? Or anything else that you'd like to share?

[User]
The only thing and the only negative, I guess, would be that I never really adjusted, because of my personality and my type and my background and my work and my desire to get things done on time. I never really adjusted to the way that, a Latin American concept of time. That just really started to get on my nerves. To make an appointment with somebody then you show up and they're not even there. But you sit in their outer office for an hour before you can get in to see them. It's just, I never really adjusted to that.

That hasn't changed. When we were there last year, you were very good about it. Remember we made plans and we waited and we waited.

Oh, at the library. All I wanted to do was go back and to see the organ that I had played concerts on at the Biblioteca Luis Ángel Arango concert hall. I just wanted to go in and play it for a few minutes. I thought this was a very reasonable, non-threatening request. Well, I got the runaround. I never did get in the studio because the person that had to get that permission wasn't there. She was out of town. And at one point, didn't we go there and I thought she was in her office?

Oh sure.

The secretary.

They had us wait for a couple of hours. And she was out of town!

She wasn't even there. The secretary had us waiting.

For this person was never coming.

[Assistant] And she knew this?

[User] It was her boss. Her boss wasn't even there.

[Assistant]
But they're so polite, they won't say no. You know, they wait for you to give up.

That's totally frustrating.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
You scanned it and sent it.

Well, I sent my pictures of me sitting at the console.

They'd probably deny it.

I scanned it all in, newspaper articles, programs, everything, and sent all of us to her as evidence that I was very involved in that. And she never replied.

So that's a dead horse. If we go back down there, he'll try again.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User]
We got more out of that than we gave.

Yeah, I would think most Peace Corps volunteers say that, I benefited more than I was able to contribute. Anything else?

Ours was a very, very interesting project. We were the second group down there or something like that. We were the third group, we were ETV, educational television and radio. The third group down.

[Assistant] Well, I'm looking forward to interviewing Bernadette, or Bunny, Thompson soon, and we can get her account of her experience.

[User] And she'll tell you the real scoop.

[Assistant] According to Bunny, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
We got more out of that than we gave.

Yeah, I would think most Peace Corps volunteers say that, I benefited more than I was able to contribute. Anything else?

Ours was a very, very interesting project. We were the second group down there or something like that. We were the third group, we were ETV, educational television and radio. The third group down.

[Assistant] Well, I'm looking forward to interviewing Bernadette, or Bunny, Thompson soon, and we can get her account of her experience.

[User] And she'll tell you the real scoop.

[Assistant] According to Bunny, right?

[User] I'll tell you what really happened.

[Assistant] Thank you so much for your interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A high school guidance counselor opened up this whole world.

[Assistant] Then John Sanders, also.

[User] John Sanders, yes, and then George Carrier. George Carrier showed me what world-class is. A completely different style from me—he was brilliant and quick, and I developed a scaling technique, a formal, mathematical way of deciding what’s important in a problem. George was incredulous when he saw it and I told him, “George, I did it in defense of you. You look at a problem and say, ‘Oh, this is important.’” I found out that he is wrong 30 percent of the time, but he’s so brilliant and a Harvard professor with two chairs, who’s going to challenge him? I developed my own style. I’m much more cautious. Two people in your life just opened up a world to you, and in every way. I mean, intellectually, socially, and monetarily.

[Assistant] In your research, what I find interesting is some of the research that you and other people were doing here—then you find out how important it is, when these people that you respect come back and tell you how much they admire what you’ve done. That’s amazing.

[User] Yes, it’s mind-boggling. So many things that I had an opportunity to investigate here, and you had support. If you needed computational [support], I had great computational [support]. If you needed diagrams made—when I was at the university, I’d make up my own PowerPoint [presentation slides]. Over here, they [did it for me]. After you did a report, they had English people review it.\n\n You just had to be smart. You just had to do your work at your level. That’s what I loved. When I set up my center, I didn’t want anybody doing work that could be done easily by someone else. That would free you up. That’s why so many creative things came out of this place.

[Assistant] You mentioned the support, and you mentioned your technicians, when you were doing the supersonic tunnel, and creating it in wood. I would imagine in some of the experiments, that you worked with photographers that were documenting everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What a life changer.

[Assistant] It sounds like it.

[User] Who could have ever dreamed, this little guy from Providence, Rhode Island, out on his own? No entitlement programs.

[Assistant] Just small decisions and chance meetings.

[User] Yes, the crossroads. You work your butt off, and it’s an incredible story. I’m writing vignettes of my life for my children. I got bogged down somewhere in the 60’s.\n\n I got another giant that I met, Hans [W.] Liepmann. I studied from his books, and he was a great admirer of George Carrier, and so he accepted me from day one. When I became Home Secretary of the Academy, he used to call me all the time because he was always complaining. We got to be great friends. Last time I was at Caltech we had lunch, and he sat here [demonstrates]. One of his students, who was a professor at Caltech, just retired, sat here. On his left was a student of him, Mory [Morteza] Gharib, who is now the provost at Caltech. To his left was one of his graduate students, who was Liepmann’s son.\n\n Liepmann told me that he was doing vignettes of his life, and what a life he led. When we get off the mic [microphone], I can tell you some stories about him. Here was this fearsome, brilliant guy known all over the world, and he couldn’t do mathematics. He kept flunking mathematics. Very interesting stories would come out. Here is a guy whose books I studied from, who became a close personal friend.

[Assistant] What an opportunity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve been grieving [over my wife’s death]. People tell me that I should think back on the life I led, and man, it was great. When I was the center director [of the National Center for Microgravity Research] here, I would come and spend time here, and I got called one day by one of Abe’s close friends, saying, “Abe is pretty lonely.” Abe is lonely? He had 15,000 people. They thought for a while that Abe had Alzheimer’s [disease], but evidently he was overmedicated. I went over to see Abe, and he was in a wheelchair and it was troublesome to get to lunch.\n\n Now I find myself in the same situation. I have this life of being known all over the world, roaming all over the world, and now there are weeks that I don’t talk to anybody but my little kitty. I have a different one of my children call me every night, but that’s the extent of it. You run around, you don’t think about that.

[Assistant] Somehow I think that in about 5 or 10 years, we’ll be reading more of the stuff that you’ve done in the next 10 years, so I don’t think you’re through yet.

[User] I’m 90 years old. People tell me I look good, and I say, “Smoking, drinking, and being overweight’s the answer.”

[Assistant] That’s the answer, right? That’s how to keep healthy.

[User] How can germs get in with alcohol and tobacco?

[Assistant] Maybe that’s the secret.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Can you share with us what else was going on board and what you did during that time period?

[User] Well, every once in a while, of course, we would take a sighting on a telescope, make sure we were about in the right place and they were still there. We kept getting reports from the ground, of course, during that, that their checkout and the Space Telescope Science Institute, their communication with the telescope was going fine, and the system seemed to be coming up normally on board the telescope. They weren’t, of course, doing anything with it. There was an outgassing period and all this sort of thing that it had to go through before they would even attempt to open the door and look at anything with it.\n\n We, in the meantime, we were watching it, and then we had a few other experiments and things on board that we were working with and trying to make sure we did all the data takes and stuff. So it was just a period where we could follow along and look at it.\n\n I think originally there may have been some idea that if things hadn’t been working out, that they could have gone back and gotten it, but they gave up on that concept fairly early on. So I’m not exactly sure why we stuck around for two days, because we weren’t going to go back and get it if it wasn’t working correctly. They may have had us come back in and take a look at something just visually and take pictures to document, but that would have been about all we could do.

[Assistant] The Orbiter’s approach to Edwards upon reentry was met with high winds, and you had to change your location from the lakebed to the runway.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Plus, you were testing—I use that word very carefully—a new brake system on\n\n Discovery\n\n . Tell us about the landing. Of course, you were commander, and so you were in charge of all of that. So tell us about that experience.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t feel like we were in danger. I felt like we were seeing all the things that we weren’t supposed to see. [Laughs]

[Assistant] Living those simulations.

[User] Hopefully wouldn’t have to experience. But, on the other hand, I think every one of those was probably some form of lesson learned to pass on to anybody who might be doing it after that. I don’t think there was ever any time that we were close to cutting the satellite loose because it posed a threat back to the Shuttle. It never got to that point at all. It did some interesting things, and its attitude varied a lot, and the tether would slack and all that sort of thing, but we were never—it really was stable after we got it out a certain amount.

[Assistant] Not only did you have an international crew, you had a full crew. You had seven members aboard, which was more than you had on your other two missions. How was that different for you with so many people on board?

[User] Well, it was a little more crowded on the flight deck, of course, during the busy periods. But once again, everybody had a specific function for being up there, whether it was doing Shuttle-related stuff, or flying the Shuttle, as I was doing, or operating CRTs [cathode-ray tubes], or operating the systems of the satellite itself. Everybody had a specific purpose, and it worked out fine. In zero-G, you tend not to notice the congestion as much just because you can occupy more of the space than you can on the ground.

[Assistant] When you returned to land the Orbiter, you had a payload with you. Were you concerned at all how this was going to affect your landing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hopefully wouldn’t have to experience. But, on the other hand, I think every one of those was probably some form of lesson learned to pass on to anybody who might be doing it after that. I don’t think there was ever any time that we were close to cutting the satellite loose because it posed a threat back to the Shuttle. It never got to that point at all. It did some interesting things, and its attitude varied a lot, and the tether would slack and all that sort of thing, but we were never—it really was stable after we got it out a certain amount.

[Assistant] Not only did you have an international crew, you had a full crew. You had seven members aboard, which was more than you had on your other two missions. How was that different for you with so many people on board?

[User] Well, it was a little more crowded on the flight deck, of course, during the busy periods. But once again, everybody had a specific function for being up there, whether it was doing Shuttle-related stuff, or flying the Shuttle, as I was doing, or operating CRTs [cathode-ray tubes], or operating the systems of the satellite itself. Everybody had a specific purpose, and it worked out fine. In zero-G, you tend not to notice the congestion as much just because you can occupy more of the space than you can on the ground.

[Assistant] When you returned to land the Orbiter, you had a payload with you. Were you concerned at all how this was going to affect your landing?

[User] No, we knew the training, all of the weight and C.G.s [center of gravity] always did have the tethered satellite there. That would have been the normal mode anyway. So I wasn’t too worried about—as a matter of fact, what we came back with was pretty nominal, as it should have been. So I wasn’t worried.

[Assistant] Was the landing or operating of the Orbiter\n\n Atlantis\n\n any different from what you had done with\n\n Discovery\n\n ?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it was a little more crowded on the flight deck, of course, during the busy periods. But once again, everybody had a specific function for being up there, whether it was doing Shuttle-related stuff, or flying the Shuttle, as I was doing, or operating CRTs [cathode-ray tubes], or operating the systems of the satellite itself. Everybody had a specific purpose, and it worked out fine. In zero-G, you tend not to notice the congestion as much just because you can occupy more of the space than you can on the ground.

[Assistant] When you returned to land the Orbiter, you had a payload with you. Were you concerned at all how this was going to affect your landing?

[User] No, we knew the training, all of the weight and C.G.s [center of gravity] always did have the tethered satellite there. That would have been the normal mode anyway. So I wasn’t too worried about—as a matter of fact, what we came back with was pretty nominal, as it should have been. So I wasn’t worried.

[Assistant] Was the landing or operating of the Orbiter\n\n Atlantis\n\n any different from what you had done with\n\n Discovery\n\n ?

[User] No, I didn’t notice any differences at all. All the vehicles, I think in terms of flying qualities and handling, are very similar to each other. None of my three flights had the drag chute on board. As a matter of fact, I think [STS] 46 may have been the last flight without a drag chute, and then after that we’ve been flying drag chutes. So everything is pretty nominal.

[Assistant] Two months after returning from this mission, you were appointed the Deputy Chief for the Astronaut Office. Did you have any idea when you were on flight that that would be your last mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Turns out it was a very logical progression of a career path for somebody who had my background, and created for me even a more unique background than most people in our business have. While a lot of people are in space ops or human space ops for a long time, not very many have experience both in Houston in our environment and at Kennedy and their environment, and in the Astronaut Office and the mission and the ground. It’s fairly unique. When I went into that job, there were only, I guess, three other people in the world that had ever done the same combination of things in that sort of sequence. So it was a unique experience.

[Assistant] Did you find your new position allowing you more time with your family, as you had hoped, or did you find responsibilities very busy, very time-consuming?

[User] Yes, it did. Evenings were, of course, a little more predictable, less travel on weekends. The hours were late enough, but at least the weekends, and a lot of that was a lot more predictable. Eventually I wasn’t flying T-38s anymore either, so that probably even made it more so.\n\n There was still quite a bit of travel involved, mostly back here to Houston and to Washington [D. C.] for other official program stuff back here during the missions or the mission phase. But, in general, it steadies things out quite a bit.

[Assistant] Another change you went through about that same time period is that you retired from the Air Force after thirty years.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That must have been a—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it did. Evenings were, of course, a little more predictable, less travel on weekends. The hours were late enough, but at least the weekends, and a lot of that was a lot more predictable. Eventually I wasn’t flying T-38s anymore either, so that probably even made it more so.\n\n There was still quite a bit of travel involved, mostly back here to Houston and to Washington [D. C.] for other official program stuff back here during the missions or the mission phase. But, in general, it steadies things out quite a bit.

[Assistant] Another change you went through about that same time period is that you retired from the Air Force after thirty years.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That must have been a—

[User] That was simultaneous with the move to Florida, becoming part of the Space Shuttle program. They and I both thought it would be more appropriate. Since I was at probably a logical place to retire from the Air Force anyway, I went ahead and did that and went into the civil service.

[Assistant] So, another new change for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] That must have been a—

[User] That was simultaneous with the move to Florida, becoming part of the Space Shuttle program. They and I both thought it would be more appropriate. Since I was at probably a logical place to retire from the Air Force anyway, I went ahead and did that and went into the civil service.

[Assistant] So, another new change for you.

[User] A new change, yes.

[Assistant] You were very much involved and very responsible in being in the position of making some tough decisions during that role, that role as well as when you became the deputy director for launch and payloads processing. Can you share some of those situations that you had to face and how you were able to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was simultaneous with the move to Florida, becoming part of the Space Shuttle program. They and I both thought it would be more appropriate. Since I was at probably a logical place to retire from the Air Force anyway, I went ahead and did that and went into the civil service.

[Assistant] So, another new change for you.

[User] A new change, yes.

[Assistant] You were very much involved and very responsible in being in the position of making some tough decisions during that role, that role as well as when you became the deputy director for launch and payloads processing. Can you share some of those situations that you had to face and how you were able to do that?

[User] Well, as the Manager of Launch Integration, as I mentioned, you’re intimately involved in the entire process leading up to launch. So it’s very logical for the Shuttle Program, the NASA government side, to have that person, the Manager of Launch Integration, be the Chairman of the Mission Management Team as you progress past the flight readiness review, which is, again, that person’s responsibility to get the process to the point of being ready to have a flight readiness review. And then it’s kind of you who is presenting the flight readiness review to sort of the senior board people within human space flight.\n\n Then, you know, you’re basically conducting everything afterwards, including—the mission management team is made up of the senior contractor and government people in each of the elements that have anything to do with the mission, and so being chairman at that point in time, it’s part of your responsibility to make sure that any management issues or any out-of-family technical issues have been appropriately dealt with and that the Shuttle really is ready to go fly. And you have the authority to give the final go-for-launch for each mission. That’s basically your job. Yes, it can be significant. A huge number of factors all have to come together, including the weather, which you have absolutely no control over.

[Assistant] Are there some times that you can remember that stand out that you had some decisions that you made that you wish maybe you weren’t responsible for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I think the contractor always—there’s always a customer relationship with NASA, so the NASA decision makers are pretty much the final authority on all of the requirements and satisfying the requirements. So you probably don’t have as much authority in that respect; but, of course, within the company there’s still quite a bit of authority to go around. So I’m not too worried about that.\n\n Again, you alluded to it before in one of your questions. This is a teamwork kind of business. The more people you have thinking about the proper way to do things, the best ways to do things, the new ideas that can make things better, I think the better off you are, and that’s one of the functions that we have as a contractor for NASA.

[Assistant] Have you had to make some adjustment of knowing that you’re on the other side now?

[User] Well, certainly. I think it’s very easy for me to do. To go back to the beginning of this interview, to the days when I was a Midwest farm boy, and you don’t get too pushy coming along in that kind of a beginning. And I think I’m diplomatic enough to know when it’s right to push a little and when it’s right to not push.

[Assistant] Well, you certainly have had a very interesting and challenging career, and we wanted to ask you, is there a time or a point in your life when you feel like you can name as the most significant accomplishment?

[User] Wow. There’s been what I consider to be quite a few of them. There are some key turning points, definitely.

[Assistant] Well, let’s talk about those.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m not sure whether the job changed or whether I changed within the job. Maybe a little of both.\n\n Early in the human space flight program, of course, astronauts were unique individuals. Part of their charisma or their charm or whatever was the fact that each one of them was a hugely successful individual, and it was focused on that way because that’s the way they started off flying, as individuals, one person in a spacecraft, and then eventually it was two, and then eventually it was three. In the Shuttle it was a lot more.\n\n So I think one of the evolutions that we saw or experienced some was the evolution from individuals doing fantastic things, to total teamwork. And today, if you don’t have the team and the good of the crew and the team uppermost in your mind, in my opinion, you don’t need to apply to be an astronaut, because we don’t need the highly individualistic person anymore. We need people who can get along with other Americans and other nationalities for long periods of time on orbit in a confined space. And that is an evolution in the role of an astronaut, I think, from the early beginnings of human space flight to what we have now. Pretty significant change.

[Assistant] Do you think that it’s changed at all during the Space Shuttle Program from your own experience?

[User] Yes, I think in the early days of the Shuttle Program there was still some of the—“We’ve got small crews, and let’s get on about the business,” and I think that evolved in just part of a string of evolution, but it happened during the Shuttle Program, and especially when the Station started to come along, and especially then when international partners started to fly with us, even more important.

[Assistant]
Thank you. That was all of my questions.

Is there anything else that you would like to talk about or share with us?

[User] Gosh, I think we’ve hit everything. We went through pretty much all the missions and all the phases and all the jobs.

[Assistant] And some of the challenges. I’m sure there are so many.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was like a lot of the people that were in that situation at that time. We were all in our mid-thirties, had young children, spent a lot of time at Langley Research Center. Our entire careers had been there up to then. So you naturally are not anxious to move, but I think I understood once I joined the Space Task Group that the possibility of a move was there. So when the move came about, you know, I accepted it as just part of the job and moved the family here. We were very pleased, after it was all over with, with the move. But it’s probably not something you would seek out. It’s just something that you get caught up in the flow of events. It certainly made sense to me that, particularly with the lunar landing function now assigned to the Space Task Group, that we could not longer live as a first cousin at the Langley Research Center. We had to move off and take on an identity of our own.\n\n Not that we didn’t have an identity of our own there. The Langley Research Center was very supportive of the Space Task Group, but facilities, people, it’s hard to mix those two functions, and for the Space Task Group to grow and take on the responsibilities that they had, it had to move and go somewhere else. Of the places that were discussed to move, it boiled down mainly to a kind of debate to going to Florida or coming to Texas. I guess the politicians at the time were stronger from the Texas vantage point, so here we are in Texas forty years later, I guess.

[Assistant] At the Johnson Space Center.

[User] At the Johnson Space Center.

[Assistant] Gives you some indication, I guess, of the politics.

[User] Of the politics of the time. That’s correct.

[Assistant] Some of the other functions going on here weren’t just the lunar landing, but they came up with this idea of Apollo Applications [Program, AAP], which you became involved with. Tell me how you made the move here from Headquarters, I guess, into AAP.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I sure did.

[Assistant] Is that typical that people who are responsible for the function of that building to control the layout?

[User] No, it isn’t. It’s an example of how the space task group works because normally you’d have a complete engineering department and architects onboard. And top management who is asking congress for money for something. They would handle a complete preparation of the building by themselves within an independent department. But in this instance, I just drew sketches of what I needed. We were a quick reaction group. And with my sketches, they bought them. They didn’t try to build a building with sketches. But I was able to determine myself on a one-on-one basis that we had to have a certain size floor space. I knew what kind of equipment we wanted to buy. I made up the list and turned them in and got approval to purchase equipment.\n\n And then I also had an opportunity to go hit the country and go to all of the government facilities and start recruiting people. I wound up recruiting over a hundred people to work in technical services division as part of my option. You must know this, without any further information from Bob Gilruth, I had no body directing me as to what I should do. This is self initiated. I initiated all of that as one person And the help I got, of course, I’d go over to the engineering department guys and say, “Hey, this is what we need.” And they would pick it up and work with it. But I didn’t have any chain of command. I reported to Bob Gilruth as his technical services assistant. And then they named me Chief of Technical Services division as we created the division.

[Assistant] Now you said that you recruited these people from the government?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] They were all civil servants?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, but it’s mandatory. I have to agree with that, that here, and I think it’s the U.S. way and probably in the military, too, to be very strict in what you ask people to do if you want them to get that label. If you want to get that label and title of mission specialist or pilot, you need to do all of it. But that was a pleasure, a nice opportunity.

[Assistant] Well, what did that training consist of in general? What were some of your impressions of the training?

[User] It’s a long training. In fact, it’s not the training; it’s qualification, like in commercial aviation when you go to get qualified on a new airplane. Here you want to qualify people for the Space Shuttle flights. So it’s mostly classes, but all the systems are special. It’s a special 85 percent. And also simulators, they have simple simulators in which you go—I think it was like three, four times a week in those specific sims, those sims where you had the specific training on what you had learned the week before, just to practice on the systems. So it can be the computers. It can be the engines. It can be electrical power, hydraulic, whatever. So you spend a couple of hours with an instructor, and most of the time with a second guy. There are two astronaut candidates and an instructor, and you go through the checklist and a malfunction checklist and learn how the systems work.

[Assistant] When did you learn that you were assigned to STS-86?

[User] I think, like, eleven months, ten, eleven months. I think that was November in [19]96, yes, one year before.

[Assistant] And at that point was the full crew assigned, which included Mr. [Vladimir G.] Titov from Russia and—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s a long training. In fact, it’s not the training; it’s qualification, like in commercial aviation when you go to get qualified on a new airplane. Here you want to qualify people for the Space Shuttle flights. So it’s mostly classes, but all the systems are special. It’s a special 85 percent. And also simulators, they have simple simulators in which you go—I think it was like three, four times a week in those specific sims, those sims where you had the specific training on what you had learned the week before, just to practice on the systems. So it can be the computers. It can be the engines. It can be electrical power, hydraulic, whatever. So you spend a couple of hours with an instructor, and most of the time with a second guy. There are two astronaut candidates and an instructor, and you go through the checklist and a malfunction checklist and learn how the systems work.

[Assistant] When did you learn that you were assigned to STS-86?

[User] I think, like, eleven months, ten, eleven months. I think that was November in [19]96, yes, one year before.

[Assistant] And at that point was the full crew assigned, which included Mr. [Vladimir G.] Titov from Russia and—

[User] I think so. We were all, yes.

[Assistant] And what did your specific training consist of, once you began training for that specific mission? How did that—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, no. Right, it never happened. I mean, they did a lot of these flights, and it never happened. Maybe their system is so safe that they can do it. I don’t know. I’ve never been flying before in an airplane that was 75 percent of his engines in reverse and fly it and go a hundred feet over buildings thinking that they will go back to normal, 100 percent, no doubt. But in aviation, but, again— [Tape recorder turned off.]

[Assistant] As we finished the last time, the first time that we were talking, you mentioned a story after where we had turned off the tape, that I was hoping that you would recount for us, and that was on your first mission with the Russians when you were docking, that there was a computer failure, and I was wondering if you could describe that event for us.

[User] Oh, just because it did not print?

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] Yes, the failure, the computer failure. What happened?

[Assistant] Yes, what happened there, if you could tell us about what happened and how you were able to correct the problem and—