[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was a pencil drawing that I made in 1958, and we were putting together a report on the proposal for the Mercury spacecraft. I'm not even sure it was called Mercury then. That was one of the figures that was in the report. There were five figures, and I'm not certain what happened to one, two, three, and four. That's figure five. But they not have ever turned into the report. And I'm kind of happy I kept it. I don't even know why I kept it, to tell you the truth. I thought I might have—usually I throw things away.

[Assistant] It's a beautiful drawing, though. Does that show the astronaut actually trying to [unclear], or -

[User] Well, that gives some idea of the reach, what the reach would be to the [unclear]. That gives you the impression it was quite spacious in there, but by the time that thing got all the junk in there, there was no place to reach that far. It's very naive in many respects, but it was 1958.

[Assistant] You can only say that in retrospect, too. Once it's done, you can say that.

[User] That's right. That's the flag that went to the moon that, when I retired, I was given that plaque, with the [unclear].\n\n This one right here, I was fortunate enough I was awarded [a] spacecraft design [award] in 1976 by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

[Assistant] For that specifically?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, that gives some idea of the reach, what the reach would be to the [unclear]. That gives you the impression it was quite spacious in there, but by the time that thing got all the junk in there, there was no place to reach that far. It's very naive in many respects, but it was 1958.

[Assistant] You can only say that in retrospect, too. Once it's done, you can say that.

[User] That's right. That's the flag that went to the moon that, when I retired, I was given that plaque, with the [unclear].\n\n This one right here, I was fortunate enough I was awarded [a] spacecraft design [award] in 1976 by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

[Assistant] For that specifically?

[User] Well, just for the general—I had retired then, just for the general contribution.

[Assistant] Well, I wouldn't call it general.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. That's the flag that went to the moon that, when I retired, I was given that plaque, with the [unclear].\n\n This one right here, I was fortunate enough I was awarded [a] spacecraft design [award] in 1976 by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

[Assistant] For that specifically?

[User] Well, just for the general—I had retired then, just for the general contribution.

[Assistant] Well, I wouldn't call it general.

[User] They couldn't think of just one thing, so they called it spacecraft design.

[Assistant] I wouldn't call it a general contribution, though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, just for the general—I had retired then, just for the general contribution.

[Assistant] Well, I wouldn't call it general.

[User] They couldn't think of just one thing, so they called it spacecraft design.

[Assistant] I wouldn't call it a general contribution, though.

[User] This is mostly Apollo-Soyuz things. Now, that was the flag that was on Apollo-Soyuz. And these are some of my Russian colleagues.\n\n This very grim-looking picture here was the day after we first arrived in Moscow in 1970 for the initial discussion, and that was at Star City. It looks rather grim, these guys in these great coats, [unclear]. It was kind of cold and dreary in the middle of Russia.\n\n In 1970, you know, things were not too red hot then. I remember coming into the city from the airport. There were great billboards, and they showed this picture of Uncle Sam, and Uncle Sam had big canine teeth sticking out, and blood was running out of his mouth, and he's got a Vietnamese baby in one hand, killing the baby, and he's stomping on the baby's mother. This was when the Vietnam War was going on, and the Russians were pretty opposed to that. And to be driving into Moscow with billboards like that, being an American, that was not very comforting. But we were treated just fine.

[Assistant] That's great. That was your first trip to Moscow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and just nobody had been there before. This picture, we signed. This was the group of us. There's myself, George [B.] Hardy from Marshall. That black-haired man with black glasses was named Crimer. He was an official interpreter. And a man from Washington headquarters, Arnold Frutken, and Dr. Gilruth. You can barely see him on the side. We were signing a Memorandum of Understanding to begin discussions of no particular activity, but just general discussions for space activities, and that led to Apollo-Soyuz. It turns out that they had that in mind all the time, but we did not know [unclear].\n\n This is my good friend Vladimir Smermetnikov [phonetic]. He's a chief mechanical designer on the thing, and he and I were kind of counterparts.

[Assistant] How interesting. Does he make it back to Houston every once in a while?

[User] Yes. Yes. He's still active on the Mir docking situation, so every time there's a joint mission, he's here as their representative for the docking in case something kind of goes wrong. He's at Mission Control here, so he's still quite active.

[Assistant] I'm wondering if he might even be willing to talk to us about his work as well, or maybe the two of you together.

[User] I wouldn't be surprised. Right at the moment he's in Washington, because he just called me a couple of days ago. When is the next -

[Assistant] The next mission, I believe, is the beginning of June or the very end of May. I think it's tentatively scheduled for the 28th of May.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Does that visit Mir?

[Assistant] It does.

[User] Okay. Well, he will almost certainly be here.

[Assistant] Okay. Great.

[User] He would probably be delighted, and he speaks English well enough that -

[Assistant] Terrific. We're also working with the Shuttle-Mir Program, and they have lent us some of their interpreters, so perhaps they might be willing to lend us one of their interpreters to help us, and I'm sure, even with his terrific English -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Okay. Well, he will almost certainly be here.

[Assistant] Okay. Great.

[User] He would probably be delighted, and he speaks English well enough that -

[Assistant] Terrific. We're also working with the Shuttle-Mir Program, and they have lent us some of their interpreters, so perhaps they might be willing to lend us one of their interpreters to help us, and I'm sure, even with his terrific English -

[User] He will disdain -

[Assistant] [Laughter] Okay. Well, just to give him the opportunity to say whatever he likes without having any sort of imposition or -


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Now, I didn't let on that I knew what was going on, and when we got back in the meeting room, I said, "Vladimir," I said, "are you ready to sign those minutes yet?"\n\n He said, "Yes." He said, "I've been thinking about it over lunch, and I believe I'm ready to sign them." [Laughter]

[Assistant] How funny. [Laughter]

[User] I never did tell him that I had heard what had gone on.

[Assistant] What are these medals up here?

[User] That was signed by the crews of Apollo and Soyuz, and these are the little medallions, and that's Apollo-Soyuz.

[Assistant] That's really neat. And they call it, of course, Soyuz-Apollo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I never did tell him that I had heard what had gone on.

[Assistant] What are these medals up here?

[User] That was signed by the crews of Apollo and Soyuz, and these are the little medallions, and that's Apollo-Soyuz.

[Assistant] That's really neat. And they call it, of course, Soyuz-Apollo.

[User] Soyuz-Apollo, that's right. Or Apollone. Apollo is Apollone.\n\n Now, these things have nothing to do with NASA. When I was a younger fellow, I used to fly my airplane. That was a couple of records that I held since the fifties [unclear].

[Assistant] Wow. Look at that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was signed by the crews of Apollo and Soyuz, and these are the little medallions, and that's Apollo-Soyuz.

[Assistant] That's really neat. And they call it, of course, Soyuz-Apollo.

[User] Soyuz-Apollo, that's right. Or Apollone. Apollo is Apollone.\n\n Now, these things have nothing to do with NASA. When I was a younger fellow, I used to fly my airplane. That was a couple of records that I held since the fifties [unclear].

[Assistant] Wow. Look at that.

[User] When I was a young fellow. You can tell how old they are. The paper's getting old.

[Assistant] That's so terrific. And I see here you have an NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] Award, too, a plaque.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Soyuz-Apollo, that's right. Or Apollone. Apollo is Apollone.\n\n Now, these things have nothing to do with NASA. When I was a younger fellow, I used to fly my airplane. That was a couple of records that I held since the fifties [unclear].

[Assistant] Wow. Look at that.

[User] When I was a young fellow. You can tell how old they are. The paper's getting old.

[Assistant] That's so terrific. And I see here you have an NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] Award, too, a plaque.

[User] Yes. They gave me that when I retired. I've got a lot of little trifle things around, but I just chose to put these up.

[Assistant] And how about, perhaps, over here. You might want to show that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I was a young fellow. You can tell how old they are. The paper's getting old.

[Assistant] That's so terrific. And I see here you have an NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] Award, too, a plaque.

[User] Yes. They gave me that when I retired. I've got a lot of little trifle things around, but I just chose to put these up.

[Assistant] And how about, perhaps, over here. You might want to show that.

[User] Oh, yes. That's a cobblestone from Red Square. Bill Creasy [phonetic] and some other guys, there was some construction work going on while they were there, and they slipped over there one night and stole a couple of cobblestones, and they had this one mounted and gave it to me when I retired, and they've got a little spot marked there on Red Square where it came from. Now, those guys were stupid to do that. They could have put those guys under the jail and we'd never hear of them again. [Laughter]

[Assistant] They're right near to the Kremlin, too. [Laughter]


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. They gave me that when I retired. I've got a lot of little trifle things around, but I just chose to put these up.

[Assistant] And how about, perhaps, over here. You might want to show that.

[User] Oh, yes. That's a cobblestone from Red Square. Bill Creasy [phonetic] and some other guys, there was some construction work going on while they were there, and they slipped over there one night and stole a couple of cobblestones, and they had this one mounted and gave it to me when I retired, and they've got a little spot marked there on Red Square where it came from. Now, those guys were stupid to do that. They could have put those guys under the jail and we'd never hear of them again. [Laughter]

[Assistant] They're right near to the Kremlin, too. [Laughter]

[User] That's right. That's St. Basil's Cathedral. And this is what we call the "Goon Department Store." And this was some sort of big old apartment building. I forget what it was. But I came back one night, it was snowing. I'd been to the Bolshoi Theater, and I was walking back, had come back up this way here. The snow was coming down, and it was cold, and that great red flag over the Kremlin was flying in the breeze, the spotlight on it, and the soldier guard was standing there, and I thought, "What in the world am I doing here in Red Square, in the middle of the night, in the snow, and that flag sitting up there and the Kremlin over there?" And I sure felt a lot better when I got to the hotel and [unclear].

[Assistant] Were there any accounts of anyone listening to you while you were in your room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. That's St. Basil's Cathedral. And this is what we call the "Goon Department Store." And this was some sort of big old apartment building. I forget what it was. But I came back one night, it was snowing. I'd been to the Bolshoi Theater, and I was walking back, had come back up this way here. The snow was coming down, and it was cold, and that great red flag over the Kremlin was flying in the breeze, the spotlight on it, and the soldier guard was standing there, and I thought, "What in the world am I doing here in Red Square, in the middle of the night, in the snow, and that flag sitting up there and the Kremlin over there?" And I sure felt a lot better when I got to the hotel and [unclear].

[Assistant] Were there any accounts of anyone listening to you while you were in your room?

[User] Oh, yes. It was mostly a matter that they were looking out for us. They just flat didn't want [unclear]. I remember the first time I went over there, Dr. Gilruth had a bag that the lock was faulty on it, and so he didn't lock it because he couldn't get it unlocked when he locked it because it wouldn't unlock. So he kept it unlocked. Well, while we were out once, when we came back, his bag was locked. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Ah-oh. [Laughter]

[User] Somebody had been through it, you know, and then they just automatically locked it. They didn't know it.

[Assistant] Wow. How funny.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Somebody had been through it, you know, and then they just automatically locked it. They didn't know it.

[Assistant] Wow. How funny.

[User] But there were no incidents that I know of. One fellow, though, insisted on trying to sneak some photographs of things with his camera someplace. We'd been to Star City. They'd asked us not to do it, so most everybody respected that. No use causing trouble over a damned photograph.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] But he tried to do it anyway. And when he got back home, he found out that all his film was completely fogged. He didn't know when and where, but it was all fogged. And it wasn't going through the airport thing, because they don't have enough power on those things to [unclear]. But that roll of film was completely fogged. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Wow. Very interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But there were no incidents that I know of. One fellow, though, insisted on trying to sneak some photographs of things with his camera someplace. We'd been to Star City. They'd asked us not to do it, so most everybody respected that. No use causing trouble over a damned photograph.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] But he tried to do it anyway. And when he got back home, he found out that all his film was completely fogged. He didn't know when and where, but it was all fogged. And it wasn't going through the airport thing, because they don't have enough power on those things to [unclear]. But that roll of film was completely fogged. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Wow. Very interesting.

[User] He was foolish to have done that. It was kind of silly.

[Assistant] Well, he took his chances.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hi.

[Assistant] We are in Portland, Oregon, this morning. Um, Paul, let's get started by talking about who you were before you joined the Peace Corps. Where were you born?

[User] I was born in Evanston, uh, outside of Chicago. Um, my parents were, uh, graduate students at Northwestern.

[Assistant] At Northwestern? Yeah. And did you have brothers and sisters?

[User] Um, I have a younger sister. She's, um, a couple of years younger than me. Yeah.

[Assistant] So then when you, as you got older, did you go to school in Evanston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was born in Evanston, uh, outside of Chicago. Um, my parents were, uh, graduate students at Northwestern.

[Assistant] At Northwestern? Yeah. And did you have brothers and sisters?

[User] Um, I have a younger sister. She's, um, a couple of years younger than me. Yeah.

[Assistant] So then when you, as you got older, did you go to school in Evanston?

[User] Uh, well, my, my parents ended up leaving the States to go teach in Zaire, which is now Congo. Um, so, so when I was about two, um, I moved with them to Congo. And so I ended up doing, uh, my elementary school education there.

[Assistant] And were you in an international school or were you going to school along with Congolese kids?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, well, my, my parents ended up leaving the States to go teach in Zaire, which is now Congo. Um, so, so when I was about two, um, I moved with them to Congo. And so I ended up doing, uh, my elementary school education there.

[Assistant] And were you in an international school or were you going to school along with Congolese kids?

[User] Um, I was going to school with Congolese kids. So.

[Assistant] How unique.

[User] Yeah. My parents made the decision to send my sister and I to, to the, the same, uh, schools that the their, um. Zairian colleagues at the university were sending their kids to. So they were good schools, but they were the local schools rather than the international ones.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, um. So you were in Zaire then from age two until?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I was going to school with Congolese kids. So.

[Assistant] How unique.

[User] Yeah. My parents made the decision to send my sister and I to, to the, the same, uh, schools that the their, um. Zairian colleagues at the university were sending their kids to. So they were good schools, but they were the local schools rather than the international ones.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, um. So you were in Zaire then from age two until?

[User] Um, we moved to the States, uh, when I was 11.

[Assistant] Okay. So that would be like first grade through fifth grade or so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. My parents made the decision to send my sister and I to, to the, the same, uh, schools that the their, um. Zairian colleagues at the university were sending their kids to. So they were good schools, but they were the local schools rather than the international ones.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, um. So you were in Zaire then from age two until?

[User] Um, we moved to the States, uh, when I was 11.

[Assistant] Okay. So that would be like first grade through fifth grade or so.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] In, uh, so in Zaire. And so. Wow. You must have picked up, uh, some languages. Uh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, we moved to the States, uh, when I was 11.

[Assistant] Okay. So that would be like first grade through fifth grade or so.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] In, uh, so in Zaire. And so. Wow. You must have picked up, uh, some languages. Uh.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] From your fellow students. What were you speaking?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] In, uh, so in Zaire. And so. Wow. You must have picked up, uh, some languages. Uh.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] From your fellow students. What were you speaking?

[User] Yeah. So when I was, so when I was real little, um, we were in Kisangani, which is in the sort of northeast part of the country and the, uh, the main language in the city anyway there was, was Swahili. And so, um, but from a, from a young age, I mean, in, in a country like, like then Zaire people speak all kinds of different languages. So I was exposed to lots of different languages, and I spoke French and English and Swahili and some Lingala, which is kind of sort of a national lingua franca there. Um, uh. So yeah, I was exposed to a lot of different languages from a very young age.

[Assistant] How very unique. Wonderful. And then when you were 11, you came back to the States. Your family moved back to the States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] From your fellow students. What were you speaking?

[User] Yeah. So when I was, so when I was real little, um, we were in Kisangani, which is in the sort of northeast part of the country and the, uh, the main language in the city anyway there was, was Swahili. And so, um, but from a, from a young age, I mean, in, in a country like, like then Zaire people speak all kinds of different languages. So I was exposed to lots of different languages, and I spoke French and English and Swahili and some Lingala, which is kind of sort of a national lingua franca there. Um, uh. So yeah, I was exposed to a lot of different languages from a very young age.

[Assistant] How very unique. Wonderful. And then when you were 11, you came back to the States. Your family moved back to the States?

[User] Yeah, yeah. So for me, it was, I mean, I guess it was moving back since I was originally born in Evanston, but it was really moving to the States for the first time.

[Assistant] For the first time for you. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So when I was, so when I was real little, um, we were in Kisangani, which is in the sort of northeast part of the country and the, uh, the main language in the city anyway there was, was Swahili. And so, um, but from a, from a young age, I mean, in, in a country like, like then Zaire people speak all kinds of different languages. So I was exposed to lots of different languages, and I spoke French and English and Swahili and some Lingala, which is kind of sort of a national lingua franca there. Um, uh. So yeah, I was exposed to a lot of different languages from a very young age.

[Assistant] How very unique. Wonderful. And then when you were 11, you came back to the States. Your family moved back to the States?

[User] Yeah, yeah. So for me, it was, I mean, I guess it was moving back since I was originally born in Evanston, but it was really moving to the States for the first time.

[Assistant] For the first time for you. Yeah.

[User] Um, so yeah, so I was, I was, uh, um, we ended up in Billings, Montana. Um. And so, yeah, it was a big change from, from, when I. For my later elementary school years, I was in Lubumbashi in Zaire, which is in the southern part of the country.

[Assistant] Oh, wait. So, so you were in Montana for just a couple of years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. So from, from Zaire, we moved to Montana.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I did my junior high years there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then we moved to Tennessee.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I did my junior high years there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then we moved to Tennessee.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.

[User] Did my high school there.

[Assistant] Okay, so when you're talking about Lubumbashi, we're still talking about, uh, uh, before you came back to the United States.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So, yeah. So the, the Zaire segment was, was Kisangani and then Lubumbashi.

[Assistant] I see.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. And then Montana. And so junior high in Montana.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. And then Montana. And so junior high in Montana.

[User] Yeah. And high school in Tennessee.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and then uh, and then I went to college in, in Ohio. So.

[Assistant] Before we go to college, um, what was it like being in high school? What sort of things did you get involved in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And high school in Tennessee.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and then uh, and then I went to college in, in Ohio. So.

[Assistant] Before we go to college, um, what was it like being in high school? What sort of things did you get involved in?

[User] Well, when I was in, when we moved to, uh, to Billings, um, so this was, this was, uh, I was in sixth grade. Um, it so happened that the public schools there had a very good music program. And one of the things that my parents used to talk to me about moving to the U.S. from Zaire was that that you can learn to play a musical instrument, because my grandfather had been, was a violinist. So, um, so anyway, I got interested in playing the French horn of all things when, as when we moved to Billings. And so when I was in high school, I was very serious about playing the horn, and I used to, I took, I had private lessons and practiced a lot on my own. And, um, so that, that was kind of my main focus. I, uh, like I would say that kind of got me through high school.

[Assistant] What were your parents doing meanwhile?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, when I was in, when we moved to, uh, to Billings, um, so this was, this was, uh, I was in sixth grade. Um, it so happened that the public schools there had a very good music program. And one of the things that my parents used to talk to me about moving to the U.S. from Zaire was that that you can learn to play a musical instrument, because my grandfather had been, was a violinist. So, um, so anyway, I got interested in playing the French horn of all things when, as when we moved to Billings. And so when I was in high school, I was very serious about playing the horn, and I used to, I took, I had private lessons and practiced a lot on my own. And, um, so that, that was kind of my main focus. I, uh, like I would say that kind of got me through high school.

[Assistant] What were your parents doing meanwhile?

[User] Uh, my parents were, uh, my, my, in high school, my mother was teaching at the university in, uh, this was in Clarksville, Tennessee. Um, and my father was writing fiction.

[Assistant] How wonderful.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Um. Did you have summer jobs?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, my parents were, uh, my, my, in high school, my mother was teaching at the university in, uh, this was in Clarksville, Tennessee. Um, and my father was writing fiction.

[Assistant] How wonderful.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Um. Did you have summer jobs?

[User] Um, I did, yeah, I did. I worked, um, uh, not through, throughout high school, but my junior and senior years in high school I worked at a fast food place to save money.

[Assistant] So you got your taste of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Um. Did you have summer jobs?

[User] Um, I did, yeah, I did. I worked, um, uh, not through, throughout high school, but my junior and senior years in high school I worked at a fast food place to save money.

[Assistant] So you got your taste of that?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then, um, you graduate from high school and you, you go to. Where did you go to college?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then, um, you graduate from high school and you, you go to. Where did you go to college?

[User] I went to college at Oberlin, uh.

[Assistant] Ah, yes.

[User] In Ohio and got into the conservatory there. So I was studying music.

[Assistant] Music at Oberlin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In Ohio and got into the conservatory there. So I was studying music.

[Assistant] Music at Oberlin.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Wonderful.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Um, what about languages? Had you, were you able to maintain your, um, Swahili and other, uh, lingua?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Um, what about languages? Had you, were you able to maintain your, um, Swahili and other, uh, lingua?

[User] Yeah. So, so, you know, through elementary school, I studied in French and mostly spoke French with my friends. And so I had a very solid, um, you know, knowledge of French. And so, in spite of the fact that from, uh, sixth grade all the way through high school, I never really had an opportunity to speak French, I held on to it. And I did, I did study other languages in high school. I studied some German and Spanish. Um, but it wasn't until college that I had an opportunity to start speaking French again.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, so and then I did, the, the Swahili and Lingala I didn't retain, so.

[Assistant] Right, right. But the French you did. And did you continue academic study of French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, so and then I did, the, the Swahili and Lingala I didn't retain, so.

[Assistant] Right, right. But the French you did. And did you continue academic study of French?

[User] Not, I did, I took. I didn't. Since I knew French, I took other languages when I had the opportunity. So I studied some German in college and some Spanish, and I lived in the French speaking dorm.

[Assistant] Oh, fun.

[User] In college. And that was just based on my knowing French. So, so I was, I was trying to take steps to maintain my, uh, my language skill.

[Assistant] Yeah. Very good. So your major was music?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not, I did, I took. I didn't. Since I knew French, I took other languages when I had the opportunity. So I studied some German in college and some Spanish, and I lived in the French speaking dorm.

[Assistant] Oh, fun.

[User] In college. And that was just based on my knowing French. So, so I was, I was trying to take steps to maintain my, uh, my language skill.

[Assistant] Yeah. Very good. So your major was music?

[User] Yeah. Yeah, I majored in French horn performance. Um, and, uh, yeah, sort of explored other things, like I was because of my experience growing up in Zaire, I was interested in African history, so I, I took some, there was some Ghanaian professors at Oberlin at the time who were Nkrumaists. So they were, they were interesting for me to take some classes with them, um, as sort of electives. Um, but yeah, my, my, my degree ended up being in a Bachelor of Arts in music performance.

[Assistant] Wow. So and then what happened next?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, I majored in French horn performance. Um, and, uh, yeah, sort of explored other things, like I was because of my experience growing up in Zaire, I was interested in African history, so I, I took some, there was some Ghanaian professors at Oberlin at the time who were Nkrumaists. So they were, they were interesting for me to take some classes with them, um, as sort of electives. Um, but yeah, my, my, my degree ended up being in a Bachelor of Arts in music performance.

[Assistant] Wow. So and then what happened next?

[User] Well, then, uh, I left college and moved to Seattle. I, I had sort of gone into college with the idea of being a professional orchestral musician and left college, uh, knowing that I didn't want to do that.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] Too many other things in the world that I was interested in. And it seemed very limiting to kind of focus to be to play an orchestral musician, you really have to, you have to, you have to focus on that as your goal and work very hard to it. And to me that felt limiting. And so, um, so I kind of took a little time off, I guess you could say, moved to Seattle with a bunch of friends of who were, who were doing the same thing. It was, this was the late '80s, early '90s in Seattle. It was, jobs were easy to get. You could live there cheaply. There was a lot of exciting arts and music going on, so it was a fun place to go. Um, and I ended up just, I had a job driving a donation service truck, picking up clothes off of people's front porches for, I did that. I ended up doing that for a number of years. Um, I had a, a fantasy from the time I was in junior high of living in a pickup truck and driving around the country. So I did that. I bought a truck and I drove around the country. Um.

[Assistant] And were you still with your French horn?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Too many other things in the world that I was interested in. And it seemed very limiting to kind of focus to be to play an orchestral musician, you really have to, you have to, you have to focus on that as your goal and work very hard to it. And to me that felt limiting. And so, um, so I kind of took a little time off, I guess you could say, moved to Seattle with a bunch of friends of who were, who were doing the same thing. It was, this was the late '80s, early '90s in Seattle. It was, jobs were easy to get. You could live there cheaply. There was a lot of exciting arts and music going on, so it was a fun place to go. Um, and I ended up just, I had a job driving a donation service truck, picking up clothes off of people's front porches for, I did that. I ended up doing that for a number of years. Um, I had a, a fantasy from the time I was in junior high of living in a pickup truck and driving around the country. So I did that. I bought a truck and I drove around the country. Um.

[Assistant] And were you still with your French horn?

[User] I had my always, my horn was always around.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I was always kind of playing it. Um, and, you know, I have to. Practicing more or less degree, depending on what else was going on in my life. But yeah, it was always there. Um, and then I eventually ended up going back to, uh, school, back to college and, and getting an another undergraduate degree, this time in electrical engineering.

[Assistant] Wow. Where did you do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was always kind of playing it. Um, and, you know, I have to. Practicing more or less degree, depending on what else was going on in my life. But yeah, it was always there. Um, and then I eventually ended up going back to, uh, school, back to college and, and getting an another undergraduate degree, this time in electrical engineering.

[Assistant] Wow. Where did you do that?

[User] At the University of Washington in Seattle.

[Assistant] Huh.

[User] And that was driven by I, I sort of always knew in the back of my mind that, I mean, this is one of the reasons that I, I didn't finish my music studies was that, uh, I wanted to figure out a way to live in Africa again. And it wasn't clear to me exactly how I was going to do that. And so I.

[Assistant] But you needed some skill.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that was driven by I, I sort of always knew in the back of my mind that, I mean, this is one of the reasons that I, I didn't finish my music studies was that, uh, I wanted to figure out a way to live in Africa again. And it wasn't clear to me exactly how I was going to do that. And so I.

[Assistant] But you needed some skill.

[User] Right. Um, being a French horn player wasn't going to get me there.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um, uh, and so I, and I got, I developed an interest in renewable energy and I thought, well, I could, it'd be interesting to do like do solar energy in Africa. And so I thought I should get an engineering degree to do that. And so that kind of motivated my decision to, uh, to go to engineering school.

[Assistant] Did it take another whole four years to get the bachelor's degree in electrical engineering?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Um, being a French horn player wasn't going to get me there.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] Um, uh, and so I, and I got, I developed an interest in renewable energy and I thought, well, I could, it'd be interesting to do like do solar energy in Africa. And so I thought I should get an engineering degree to do that. And so that kind of motivated my decision to, uh, to go to engineering school.

[Assistant] Did it take another whole four years to get the bachelor's degree in electrical engineering?

[User] Yeah, it did, I. It had been four years since I had graduated and got my first degree, and I had taken some math and science courses, uh, at Oberlin. But I had to redo all of that, so I just, I just kind of plowed in. And went through went through a whole 'nother four year undergraduate.

[Assistant] Well, good for you. Not many people would be willing to do that. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of strength to put yourself through that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, uh, and so I, and I got, I developed an interest in renewable energy and I thought, well, I could, it'd be interesting to do like do solar energy in Africa. And so I thought I should get an engineering degree to do that. And so that kind of motivated my decision to, uh, to go to engineering school.

[Assistant] Did it take another whole four years to get the bachelor's degree in electrical engineering?

[User] Yeah, it did, I. It had been four years since I had graduated and got my first degree, and I had taken some math and science courses, uh, at Oberlin. But I had to redo all of that, so I just, I just kind of plowed in. And went through went through a whole 'nother four year undergraduate.

[Assistant] Well, good for you. Not many people would be willing to do that. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of strength to put yourself through that.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because at that time I actually met a few other people who were doing the same thing that I was, that they had studied arts in undergraduate, taken some time off, and then gone back to get engineering degrees. And so it seemed like I was part of a trend without really knowing it.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, um. And you were in Seattle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it did, I. It had been four years since I had graduated and got my first degree, and I had taken some math and science courses, uh, at Oberlin. But I had to redo all of that, so I just, I just kind of plowed in. And went through went through a whole 'nother four year undergraduate.

[Assistant] Well, good for you. Not many people would be willing to do that. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of strength to put yourself through that.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because at that time I actually met a few other people who were doing the same thing that I was, that they had studied arts in undergraduate, taken some time off, and then gone back to get engineering degrees. And so it seemed like I was part of a trend without really knowing it.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, um. And you were in Seattle?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And, um. When you finished that degree, by that time, you're, what, 20, 26 or something?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because at that time I actually met a few other people who were doing the same thing that I was, that they had studied arts in undergraduate, taken some time off, and then gone back to get engineering degrees. And so it seemed like I was part of a trend without really knowing it.

[Assistant] Yeah. So, um. And you were in Seattle?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And, um. When you finished that degree, by that time, you're, what, 20, 26 or something?

[User] 29, yeah. 28, 29.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. Because you'd put in all those years, uh, working at picking up, uh, donations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And, um. When you finished that degree, by that time, you're, what, 20, 26 or something?

[User] 29, yeah. 28, 29.

[Assistant] Oh, that's right. Because you'd put in all those years, uh, working at picking up, uh, donations.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Right, right. So now you're 29 and you've got a degree in electrical engineering.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. So the, the, you know, part of my thinking about getting back to Africa, so to speak, was to, uh, get this electrical engineering degree because I had been interested in the Peace Corps, and I looked into it and felt like I wouldn't really be qualified. Like they wanted people with technical skills. And without, like, actually going to a Peace Corps recruiter and talking to them, I just decided that I would do this, get this degree.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Um, I mean that was part of my motivation for, um. So. So I had, I sort of knew that I wanted to apply to the Peace Corps when I finished the degree. So toward the end of my degree then I did go talk to a recruiter.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And um, began the long application process. Um.

[Assistant] What was that like? You said long application process. How long did that take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I mean that was part of my motivation for, um. So. So I had, I sort of knew that I wanted to apply to the Peace Corps when I finished the degree. So toward the end of my degree then I did go talk to a recruiter.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And um, began the long application process. Um.

[Assistant] What was that like? You said long application process. How long did that take?

[User] Yeah, I think it was. I think it was close to a year from the time I sort of started the process to the time I was accepted and placed.

[Assistant] Um, were you, uh, given a choice of what part of the world? Were you able to indicate that your preference was Africa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I think it was. I think it was close to a year from the time I sort of started the process to the time I was accepted and placed.

[Assistant] Um, were you, uh, given a choice of what part of the world? Were you able to indicate that your preference was Africa?

[User] Um, I think I was, I think they. I was able, there was a form where I could put a preference, and the recruiter made it clear that that may or may not be taken into consideration.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and then I think the ironic thing about it in the end was that I was placed in Mali because of my language skills. And they were, you know, they, I was in the agriculture program, so my electrical engineering had no bearing on it. And I think when I had looked into it earlier, there had been an appropriate technology sector, and I was sort of excited to be part of that. Um, but that, that didn't exist by the time I actually applied. Um, so, yeah, I was, I was placed in a French speaking African country because I was a fluent French speaker.

[Assistant] Yeah. How interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, I think I was, I think they. I was able, there was a form where I could put a preference, and the recruiter made it clear that that may or may not be taken into consideration.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and then I think the ironic thing about it in the end was that I was placed in Mali because of my language skills. And they were, you know, they, I was in the agriculture program, so my electrical engineering had no bearing on it. And I think when I had looked into it earlier, there had been an appropriate technology sector, and I was sort of excited to be part of that. Um, but that, that didn't exist by the time I actually applied. Um, so, yeah, I was, I was placed in a French speaking African country because I was a fluent French speaker.

[Assistant] Yeah. How interesting.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in agriculture. Had you had any background in agriculture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and then I think the ironic thing about it in the end was that I was placed in Mali because of my language skills. And they were, you know, they, I was in the agriculture program, so my electrical engineering had no bearing on it. And I think when I had looked into it earlier, there had been an appropriate technology sector, and I was sort of excited to be part of that. Um, but that, that didn't exist by the time I actually applied. Um, so, yeah, I was, I was placed in a French speaking African country because I was a fluent French speaker.

[Assistant] Yeah. How interesting.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in agriculture. Had you had any background in agriculture?

[User] No, I was, you know, joking with my friends that give me a house plant and I would kill it. I had no, no experience or real interest in it. But I was willing to learn, so.

[Assistant] Of course. And you wanted, you wanted to be in Africa in some sort of useful way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And in agriculture. Had you had any background in agriculture?

[User] No, I was, you know, joking with my friends that give me a house plant and I would kill it. I had no, no experience or real interest in it. But I was willing to learn, so.

[Assistant] Of course. And you wanted, you wanted to be in Africa in some sort of useful way.

[User] Yeah. And, you know, Mali wasn't my first choice. I had been in Central Africa, which was very different. And, and my impression of Mali at the time was, was, you know, it's an arid desert country and it's very predominantly Muslim. And I wasn't really experienced with that. Um, and, um, it, it. My impression of it was very different from the, my, what I had experienced as a kid in Zaire, so. But I was, you know, I decided to go for it.

[Assistant] All right. Meanwhile, where are your parents?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was, you know, joking with my friends that give me a house plant and I would kill it. I had no, no experience or real interest in it. But I was willing to learn, so.

[Assistant] Of course. And you wanted, you wanted to be in Africa in some sort of useful way.

[User] Yeah. And, you know, Mali wasn't my first choice. I had been in Central Africa, which was very different. And, and my impression of Mali at the time was, was, you know, it's an arid desert country and it's very predominantly Muslim. And I wasn't really experienced with that. Um, and, um, it, it. My impression of it was very different from the, my, what I had experienced as a kid in Zaire, so. But I was, you know, I decided to go for it.

[Assistant] All right. Meanwhile, where are your parents?

[User] Uh, my parents have been moving around, so they were, at that time they were living in Montana again. Um, and my mom, my mom was actually doing international work, so she was consulting, uh, in public health. Um, so she, she was traveling around. And I had actually had an opportunity to visit them when she had a job in, in Malawi. Um, so I did, I did travel to Africa, um, one time before I was in Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Peace Corps, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And, you know, Mali wasn't my first choice. I had been in Central Africa, which was very different. And, and my impression of Mali at the time was, was, you know, it's an arid desert country and it's very predominantly Muslim. And I wasn't really experienced with that. Um, and, um, it, it. My impression of it was very different from the, my, what I had experienced as a kid in Zaire, so. But I was, you know, I decided to go for it.

[Assistant] All right. Meanwhile, where are your parents?

[User] Uh, my parents have been moving around, so they were, at that time they were living in Montana again. Um, and my mom, my mom was actually doing international work, so she was consulting, uh, in public health. Um, so she, she was traveling around. And I had actually had an opportunity to visit them when she had a job in, in Malawi. Um, so I did, I did travel to Africa, um, one time before I was in Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Peace Corps, yeah.

[User] So that was my sort of going back to Malawi and smelling the smells and seeing the sights that were familiar to me from, from a kid.

[Assistant] Because Malawi would have, Malawi would have been, um, closer to the Congo, certainly, than Mali.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, my parents have been moving around, so they were, at that time they were living in Montana again. Um, and my mom, my mom was actually doing international work, so she was consulting, uh, in public health. Um, so she, she was traveling around. And I had actually had an opportunity to visit them when she had a job in, in Malawi. Um, so I did, I did travel to Africa, um, one time before I was in Peace Corps.

[Assistant] Peace Corps, yeah.

[User] So that was my sort of going back to Malawi and smelling the smells and seeing the sights that were familiar to me from, from a kid.

[Assistant] Because Malawi would have, Malawi would have been, um, closer to the Congo, certainly, than Mali.

[User] It's geographically more similar, yeah. So the, the climate is more similar.

[Assistant] That's right. Yeah. So you get accepted to a program for Mali and off you go training. Was there a staging somewhere in the United States first before you went over?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that was my sort of going back to Malawi and smelling the smells and seeing the sights that were familiar to me from, from a kid.

[Assistant] Because Malawi would have, Malawi would have been, um, closer to the Congo, certainly, than Mali.

[User] It's geographically more similar, yeah. So the, the climate is more similar.

[Assistant] That's right. Yeah. So you get accepted to a program for Mali and off you go training. Was there a staging somewhere in the United States first before you went over?

[User] Yeah, we had a three, I think it was a 2 or 3 day staging in Washington, D.C. So that's where I got to meet my, my cohort.

[Assistant] Okay. And what was your, talk about your cohort a little bit. How many people and who was in it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's geographically more similar, yeah. So the, the climate is more similar.

[Assistant] That's right. Yeah. So you get accepted to a program for Mali and off you go training. Was there a staging somewhere in the United States first before you went over?

[User] Yeah, we had a three, I think it was a 2 or 3 day staging in Washington, D.C. So that's where I got to meet my, my cohort.

[Assistant] Okay. And what was your, talk about your cohort a little bit. How many people and who was in it?

[User] Um, let's see. I want to say there were 28 or so people.

[Assistant] Oh, nice and small.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we had a three, I think it was a 2 or 3 day staging in Washington, D.C. So that's where I got to meet my, my cohort.

[Assistant] Okay. And what was your, talk about your cohort a little bit. How many people and who was in it?

[User] Um, let's see. I want to say there were 28 or so people.

[Assistant] Oh, nice and small.

[User] Yeah. It was, it was a, um, not a big group. And it was mostly young recent graduates, so in their early 20s.

[Assistant] And you were?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was 29.

[Assistant] 29, yeah.

[User] I think. I think there was one other person who was around the same age as me. And then and in, in our group there were, it was like the group, the age group was pretty narrow.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um. And I think there were, it was mostly women. I think there were, uh, were there 5 or 6 men in the group?

[Assistant] Oh, interesting, to do. And they were all preparing to be agriculture volunteers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think. I think there was one other person who was around the same age as me. And then and in, in our group there were, it was like the group, the age group was pretty narrow.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um. And I think there were, it was mostly women. I think there were, uh, were there 5 or 6 men in the group?

[Assistant] Oh, interesting, to do. And they were all preparing to be agriculture volunteers?

[User] Uh, no. So this was divided between agriculture and natural resources management. So the way they did it at that time is they had two incoming groups per year. And, and, the, the. Each group had 2 or 3 sectors. So the other sector was the health and the small business sector. Or maybe there was another sector in there. So our group was the NRM, Natural Resources Management and Agriculture. So we were all going to be in one of those.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have staging in Washington.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. And I think there were, it was mostly women. I think there were, uh, were there 5 or 6 men in the group?

[Assistant] Oh, interesting, to do. And they were all preparing to be agriculture volunteers?

[User] Uh, no. So this was divided between agriculture and natural resources management. So the way they did it at that time is they had two incoming groups per year. And, and, the, the. Each group had 2 or 3 sectors. So the other sector was the health and the small business sector. Or maybe there was another sector in there. So our group was the NRM, Natural Resources Management and Agriculture. So we were all going to be in one of those.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have staging in Washington.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do they give you all kinds of vaccinations, or had you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, no. So this was divided between agriculture and natural resources management. So the way they did it at that time is they had two incoming groups per year. And, and, the, the. Each group had 2 or 3 sectors. So the other sector was the health and the small business sector. Or maybe there was another sector in there. So our group was the NRM, Natural Resources Management and Agriculture. So we were all going to be in one of those.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have staging in Washington.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Do they give you all kinds of vaccinations, or had you?

[User] Right. We did, we did. I think we did some vaccinations. I kind of remember doing some in Seattle before, but yeah, we did. Or maybe, yeah, maybe I'm mixing that up. But yeah, we did vaccinations there. We watched a lot of orientation videos.

[Assistant] About Mali, about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. We did, we did. I think we did some vaccinations. I kind of remember doing some in Seattle before, but yeah, we did. Or maybe, yeah, maybe I'm mixing that up. But yeah, we did vaccinations there. We watched a lot of orientation videos.

[Assistant] About Mali, about Peace Corps?

[User] About Peace Corps. Just kind of preparing us for what to expect. You know, I think there were videos with interviews of returned volunteers and that kind of thing, or volunteers at their sites and some sort of team building stuff. And I was really not looking forward to that part of the experience. And so it was, I was, it was hard for me to just play along.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, but, but, yeah, it was um, it was a good group of people. So it was, it was my first exposure and I was a little standoffish, I think, suspicious of everybody. I think we all kind of were, um. But. Yeah. So. So that was a couple of days.

[Assistant] A couple of days. And then you all flew together, I suppose?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, but, but, yeah, it was um, it was a good group of people. So it was, it was my first exposure and I was a little standoffish, I think, suspicious of everybody. I think we all kind of were, um. But. Yeah. So. So that was a couple of days.

[Assistant] A couple of days. And then you all flew together, I suppose?

[User] Yep, yep.

[Assistant] From D.C.?

[User] We did. We flew, I think, out of Dulles, and we were all flying as a group and had to get all our luggage in a big pile and, and, uh, we were. Yeah, we all were seated around each other on the big plane to Paris.

[Assistant] So it wouldn't have been a charter flight I'm thinking. There's only 28 of you or so.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep, yep.

[Assistant] From D.C.?

[User] We did. We flew, I think, out of Dulles, and we were all flying as a group and had to get all our luggage in a big pile and, and, uh, we were. Yeah, we all were seated around each other on the big plane to Paris.

[Assistant] So it wouldn't have been a charter flight I'm thinking. There's only 28 of you or so.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You would have had ordinary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did. We flew, I think, out of Dulles, and we were all flying as a group and had to get all our luggage in a big pile and, and, uh, we were. Yeah, we all were seated around each other on the big plane to Paris.

[Assistant] So it wouldn't have been a charter flight I'm thinking. There's only 28 of you or so.

[User] No.

[Assistant] You would have had ordinary.

[User] Yeah, we were just on a regular commercial flight.

[Assistant] Yeah. To, did you say to Paris?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, we were just on a regular commercial flight.

[Assistant] Yeah. To, did you say to Paris?

[User] To Paris.

[Assistant] And then?

[User] And then from there directly to Bamako.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Any time in Paris?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To Paris.

[Assistant] And then?

[User] And then from there directly to Bamako.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Any time in Paris?

[User] No, no, we just hung out at the airport for the short layover.

[Assistant] And you were quite comfortable in French. Were your fellow trainees also fluent in French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then from there directly to Bamako.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Any time in Paris?

[User] No, no, we just hung out at the airport for the short layover.

[Assistant] And you were quite comfortable in French. Were your fellow trainees also fluent in French?

[User] Uh, most were not, but there were a couple. There were actually, um. There was one other person in our group who was a native speaker. He spoke French and English. He was a dual national. And then there were a couple of other people who had studied French and were quite comfortable with it.

[Assistant] So you get to Bamako and right away you must have noticed some differences between, um, your surroundings in Mali as compared to what you'd experienced before in Congo and Malawi. What did you, what were you noticing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, most were not, but there were a couple. There were actually, um. There was one other person in our group who was a native speaker. He spoke French and English. He was a dual national. And then there were a couple of other people who had studied French and were quite comfortable with it.

[Assistant] So you get to Bamako and right away you must have noticed some differences between, um, your surroundings in Mali as compared to what you'd experienced before in Congo and Malawi. What did you, what were you noticing?

[User] Yeah, well, I think, I think it was, I mean. I was dealing with being in this big crowd of people, which kind of I'm not comfortable with. So I was sort of coping with that and sort of having to experience landing in Mali as part of this big, big group of people. And then there was just a lot of, you know, we were, we were greeted. The Peace Corps staff came out onto the tarmac and met us and sort of herded us into a group, um, separated us from the rest of the passengers. And they, I think we handed them our passports and they sort of managed the whole process through customs. So we were shielded from the usual sort of chaotic experience when you fly alone.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Um, and then they had kind of identified a couple of us to sort of help lead, um, the group through the process. And since I had had some experience that I kind of, I don't know if they identified us or if we self identified, but we, there were, you know, everybody was some having different. Some people were pretty overwhelmed. We were all very tired. And um, so I remember that like at a certain point, we were getting luggage off of the carousel after we had gotten through customs and everything. And that was chaotic, because there's all these people around and there's all these touts trying to sell you or get you to, you know, have them get your bags off the carousel.

[Assistant] Oh, and you'd pay them to have them pick up your suitcase.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and then they had kind of identified a couple of us to sort of help lead, um, the group through the process. And since I had had some experience that I kind of, I don't know if they identified us or if we self identified, but we, there were, you know, everybody was some having different. Some people were pretty overwhelmed. We were all very tired. And um, so I remember that like at a certain point, we were getting luggage off of the carousel after we had gotten through customs and everything. And that was chaotic, because there's all these people around and there's all these touts trying to sell you or get you to, you know, have them get your bags off the carousel.

[Assistant] Oh, and you'd pay them to have them pick up your suitcase.

[User] Right. And you sort of don't know who to trust and who not to because you don't have any perspective yet. And so I, since I kind of knew how to navigate that a little bit. So I, um, so me and a couple of the other volunteers were kind of pulling the bags off of the carousel and putting them into piles and, um. Uh. And yeah, it was just, it was loud and hot and just kind of overwhelming. Um, but they, they shuttled us through pretty efficiently. And then and then they got us out into the Peace Corps bus that was waiting out in the parking lot.

[Assistant] Ah, okay.

[User] Um, and actually, for some, I remember it's like sitting out there with just a couple of other people for a while. So I don't remember the process, but somehow we were getting led out, uh, one by one or something? I don't remember exactly, but, um.

[Assistant] That was a while ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And you sort of don't know who to trust and who not to because you don't have any perspective yet. And so I, since I kind of knew how to navigate that a little bit. So I, um, so me and a couple of the other volunteers were kind of pulling the bags off of the carousel and putting them into piles and, um. Uh. And yeah, it was just, it was loud and hot and just kind of overwhelming. Um, but they, they shuttled us through pretty efficiently. And then and then they got us out into the Peace Corps bus that was waiting out in the parking lot.

[Assistant] Ah, okay.

[User] Um, and actually, for some, I remember it's like sitting out there with just a couple of other people for a while. So I don't remember the process, but somehow we were getting led out, uh, one by one or something? I don't remember exactly, but, um.

[Assistant] That was a while ago.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] So I've never been to, uh, Mali. I'm wondering what the, what it feels like to be in Bamako. Are you at a high elevation? Is it, um, you mentioned it's hot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and actually, for some, I remember it's like sitting out there with just a couple of other people for a while. So I don't remember the process, but somehow we were getting led out, uh, one by one or something? I don't remember exactly, but, um.

[Assistant] That was a while ago.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] So I've never been to, uh, Mali. I'm wondering what the, what it feels like to be in Bamako. Are you at a high elevation? Is it, um, you mentioned it's hot.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Is it, is it a dry? Is it dry?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah.

[Assistant] So I've never been to, uh, Mali. I'm wondering what the, what it feels like to be in Bamako. Are you at a high elevation? Is it, um, you mentioned it's hot.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Is it, is it a dry? Is it dry?

[User] It's, it's hot and dry and dusty. Um, it's on a river. So in the rainy season it can also be pretty relatively humid. Um, uh, and we got there in January, so it was in their cooler season. So it wasn't as overwhelmingly hot as it can be. But for somebody just getting off the plane from the States, it feels.

[Assistant] Especially in January.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Is it, is it a dry? Is it dry?

[User] It's, it's hot and dry and dusty. Um, it's on a river. So in the rainy season it can also be pretty relatively humid. Um, uh, and we got there in January, so it was in their cooler season. So it wasn't as overwhelmingly hot as it can be. But for somebody just getting off the plane from the States, it feels.

[Assistant] Especially in January.

[User] Yeah, right. It feels, it feels hot and just kind of dry and dusty.

[Assistant] Dusty. Yeah. So you get on a bus and the bus takes you someplace where you're going to do training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's, it's hot and dry and dusty. Um, it's on a river. So in the rainy season it can also be pretty relatively humid. Um, uh, and we got there in January, so it was in their cooler season. So it wasn't as overwhelmingly hot as it can be. But for somebody just getting off the plane from the States, it feels.

[Assistant] Especially in January.

[User] Yeah, right. It feels, it feels hot and just kind of dry and dusty.

[Assistant] Dusty. Yeah. So you get on a bus and the bus takes you someplace where you're going to do training.

[User] Right? So that.

[Assistant] Was the training in Bamako?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The training, yeah, was at. The Peace Corps had a training site there called Tubaniso, which means, uh, the home of the doves. Um, and it's, it's on the edge of town on the river. Um, it's a really nice, really nice place. It's kind of a, a farm, um, that, that has been used as a training center for many, many years. And unfortunately, now it's all, they've shut all that down in the last couple of years because of the security situation.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But, um, so yeah, we get in this bus. It was a, you know, a large, uh, minibus by African standards or a smallish bus by American standards. So we're all kind of packed in there. Um, and it's, it was evening, so it was still daylight. We could, we could, or actually it was getting, it was towards sunset, I guess. Anyway, I remember going through the city, you have to drive through the city to get there. And so there's all these people out and noise and stuff, and we're all kind of looking out the window going, okay, this is our new home.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Uh, and by the time we arrived at the training center, it was dark. Um, and so it was, you know, time for everybody to go to bed. And so they have, they have these mud huts that they built at the training center for the volunteers to stay in during training. So we're each assigned a hut. And they had a whole, the Malian training staff was all there.

[Assistant] You had a hut all to yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no, we, we were assigned. I think there were four to a hut.

[Assistant] Oh, okay.

[User] Um, so part of. We get off the bus and we're all hot and tired and it's dark and we can't really see where we are by then. And then, uh, and they're grouping us into who's going to be staying in what hut, um. And then, and then, then they had the, the, um, they had to teach us how to go to the bathroom because, uh, they had these pit latrines that they used with just a hole in the ground. So you had to squat.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then instead of toilet paper, as in many Muslim countries, they use a little kettle of, of water that you use to clean yourself after you go to the bathroom. Uh, and so they had to give us a lesson about how to do that. So they had a male, uh, instructor and a female instructor to, you know, divided the group up into women and men. And so, so it was sort of comical and a little intimidating all at the same time. And then.

[Assistant] Had anything been said about this in Washington in your brief three days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, so part of. We get off the bus and we're all hot and tired and it's dark and we can't really see where we are by then. And then, uh, and they're grouping us into who's going to be staying in what hut, um. And then, and then, then they had the, the, um, they had to teach us how to go to the bathroom because, uh, they had these pit latrines that they used with just a hole in the ground. So you had to squat.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then instead of toilet paper, as in many Muslim countries, they use a little kettle of, of water that you use to clean yourself after you go to the bathroom. Uh, and so they had to give us a lesson about how to do that. So they had a male, uh, instructor and a female instructor to, you know, divided the group up into women and men. And so, so it was sort of comical and a little intimidating all at the same time. And then.

[Assistant] Had anything been said about this in Washington in your brief three days?

[User] I don't remember that. I remember that being sort of like, okay, this is, um, uh, not, not what I was expecting. Um, uh. So. Yeah, then, and then it was time to go to bed. And so we all turned into our huts and.

[Assistant] Finally get to lie down.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then instead of toilet paper, as in many Muslim countries, they use a little kettle of, of water that you use to clean yourself after you go to the bathroom. Uh, and so they had to give us a lesson about how to do that. So they had a male, uh, instructor and a female instructor to, you know, divided the group up into women and men. And so, so it was sort of comical and a little intimidating all at the same time. And then.

[Assistant] Had anything been said about this in Washington in your brief three days?

[User] I don't remember that. I remember that being sort of like, okay, this is, um, uh, not, not what I was expecting. Um, uh. So. Yeah, then, and then it was time to go to bed. And so we all turned into our huts and.

[Assistant] Finally get to lie down.

[User] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] So then you're in. You're in, uh, you're in this training center and you wake up in the morning and there must be some central place where you gather.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't remember that. I remember that being sort of like, okay, this is, um, uh, not, not what I was expecting. Um, uh. So. Yeah, then, and then it was time to go to bed. And so we all turned into our huts and.

[Assistant] Finally get to lie down.

[User] Right. Yeah.

[Assistant] So then you're in. You're in, uh, you're in this training center and you wake up in the morning and there must be some central place where you gather.

[User] Yeah. So then, then. Yeah, I mean it's in the training center was very nice. There was an outdoor covered area that they used as a classroom. And then they had a series of smaller structures for smaller groups. And so we all met in that the main, we called it a hangar. There's all this, uh, pseudo English that, that Peace Corps volunteers speak. That's kind of a mix of various languages. So, so when I'm talking to people who aren't Peace Corps volunteers, I have to remember not to use the, like a hangar is a, is a French word. But anyway, so it's a, it's a, it was an open like a structure with a metal roof. And um, that was big enough for the whole group to be in. So that was kind of our main meeting point. So we, uh, that's where we were assembled. And, um, you know, laid out the schedule for the next three months of training.

[Assistant] And so what did transpire in those three months of training? More French for those who needed more French?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So for those who needed French, they got French and then and then those. And it was sort of depended on what site you were going to be in. So this, the training process is, I, um, I think it's a pretty impressive program, but it can be frustrating for the volunteers to go through. I guess you're not technically volunteers, for the trainees to go through. Um. Because you kind of don't know where your site is going to be yet. And so some of the decisions about what training you need are dependent on the site. And so you might start down one track and then things change in course.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so and we're all kind of trapped in this place for three months. And so it can be, it can be a frustrating process. But, but, uh, so for me, um, I ended up being placed in the north of Mali, which had been closed to Peace Corps for, for, uh, several years before I arrived. And the crew of volunteers who had arrived six months before me were the first, were among the first, that crew was the first to send people to the northern part. So there were a couple of volunteers up there when I arrived, and then they were sending a few more up. And so we needed, we had different training requirements because the culture is different up there and language is different.

[Assistant] Oh, interesting. So what was the language?

[User] So the language that I initially started learning was Bambara, because that's the language that's spoken in a large part of the southern part of the country. And then, and then when, when they decided to send me up north, then they, I switched to Songhai [also called Songhay]. Uh.

[Assistant] Oh, how frustrating that would be.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so and we're all kind of trapped in this place for three months. And so it can be, it can be a frustrating process. But, but, uh, so for me, um, I ended up being placed in the north of Mali, which had been closed to Peace Corps for, for, uh, several years before I arrived. And the crew of volunteers who had arrived six months before me were the first, were among the first, that crew was the first to send people to the northern part. So there were a couple of volunteers up there when I arrived, and then they were sending a few more up. And so we needed, we had different training requirements because the culture is different up there and language is different.

[Assistant] Oh, interesting. So what was the language?

[User] So the language that I initially started learning was Bambara, because that's the language that's spoken in a large part of the southern part of the country. And then, and then when, when they decided to send me up north, then they, I switched to Songhai [also called Songhay]. Uh.

[Assistant] Oh, how frustrating that would be.

[User] Yeah. Um.

[Assistant] It takes a long time to master an African language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So the language that I initially started learning was Bambara, because that's the language that's spoken in a large part of the southern part of the country. And then, and then when, when they decided to send me up north, then they, I switched to Songhai [also called Songhay]. Uh.

[Assistant] Oh, how frustrating that would be.

[User] Yeah. Um.

[Assistant] It takes a long time to master an African language.

[User] Right. I mean, luckily, Bambara and Songhai and those languages are, are related. So like the grammar, grammatical structure is similar and so on. So it wasn't a huge leap. But, but, yeah, it was. You know, I started in Bambara and then I had to stop and start over again in Songhai. And so my Songhai was not as strong as it would have been had that.

[Assistant] Had you been able to start with it from the beginning. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Um.

[Assistant] It takes a long time to master an African language.

[User] Right. I mean, luckily, Bambara and Songhai and those languages are, are related. So like the grammar, grammatical structure is similar and so on. So it wasn't a huge leap. But, but, yeah, it was. You know, I started in Bambara and then I had to stop and start over again in Songhai. And so my Songhai was not as strong as it would have been had that.

[Assistant] Had you been able to start with it from the beginning. Yeah.

[User] Um, but also, yeah, because I spoke French, I could use that as a crutch too, um. So yeah. And then we learned, uh, for me, learning gardening skills. So, you know, I, I was going to be working with women's gardening associations in a town called Ansongo in, in the north of Mali. Uh, so I needed to learn Songhai, and I needed to learn how to grow things in an arid climate. Um, and I needed to learn some cultural things. So, um.

[Assistant] What sorts of cultural things?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. I mean, luckily, Bambara and Songhai and those languages are, are related. So like the grammar, grammatical structure is similar and so on. So it wasn't a huge leap. But, but, yeah, it was. You know, I started in Bambara and then I had to stop and start over again in Songhai. And so my Songhai was not as strong as it would have been had that.

[Assistant] Had you been able to start with it from the beginning. Yeah.

[User] Um, but also, yeah, because I spoke French, I could use that as a crutch too, um. So yeah. And then we learned, uh, for me, learning gardening skills. So, you know, I, I was going to be working with women's gardening associations in a town called Ansongo in, in the north of Mali. Uh, so I needed to learn Songhai, and I needed to learn how to grow things in an arid climate. Um, and I needed to learn some cultural things. So, um.

[Assistant] What sorts of cultural things?

[User] Um. Well, you know, this. So. Um. For most of the other parts of Mali, they had had volunteers going there for a long time. And so they had, um, the training program was sort of based on the experience of volunteers and, and the cultural things that they taught were based on that region. But in the northern, in the northern regions, things were different. So we were, they were kind of improvising a little bit to get us covered. But it was things, just things like what to wear and, and, uh, how, like customs and families, like how to, how to, um, be respectful when you're visiting a family and or how to interact with people when you go visit a village. Um, and so some of those things apply to anywhere in Mali. And some of those were very locality specific.

[Assistant] Yeah. I'm imagining there would be some, also some things on what not to do and what not to say.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and it's a real, it's a, it's a tension diffusing mechanism that is a really powerful thing in Mali. And so, uh, so we were all given Malian names as part of our training so that we could participate in that part of the culture. Um.

[Assistant] Did that name stay with you when you went up north?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Yeah. And, yeah, that was my name when I was in, I was Ali Touré when, when I lived in Mali and, and, uh, a lot of, uh, people that I lived with and worked with didn't know me by any other name. Um, uh, and that's part, part of the culture, the sort of. There's a culture of welcoming visitors and strangers in that part of the world. And so traditionally when a visitor came they would be given a name by their hosts, and so that would, that was the Peace Corps' way of sort of, uh, acknowledging that tradition. Um. So, uh, yeah. Um. But then, as it turned out, in the north of Mali, the joking cousin thing and so on is not as strong. And um, so it didn't turn out to be that relevant to where I went. Um, so I had to do a little discovering that kind of stuff on my own, which, which we all did.

[Assistant] Sure. Did you have the sense that, um, training gave you what you needed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. Yeah, I mean I don't, I think. I think a lot of what the purpose of training more than sort of giving you specific skills, aside from the language skills. I mean, the language training I thought was really good. Um, was just kind of preparing you for something that was going to be, like, mysterious and difficult, you know, and so, and so I don't know if this was intentional, but I kind of felt like the training process was a little bit of a weeding out process. Like, if you could make it through training, then there's probably a good chance you'd make it through the actual service because, you know, we, a few people dropped out during training and they always made it clear that you're welcome to change your mind at any time, you know?

[Assistant] Okay. Yeah.

[User] Um, and then it was kind of like an acclimation period too, like, okay, we're living in Mali and we're learning how to talk to Malians. Our training staff there was just phenomenal. They were really great people and very experienced. They've been doing this for years. Um, and so, and they understood Americans and understood our anxieties and so on. So they kind of helped us kind of navigate a lot of that kind of stuff. Um.

[Assistant] How did they teach you Songhai?

[User] Uh, we just. Well, there was one other person who was, who was going up north with me, and so we had.

[Assistant] Oh, just the two of you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and then it was kind of like an acclimation period too, like, okay, we're living in Mali and we're learning how to talk to Malians. Our training staff there was just phenomenal. They were really great people and very experienced. They've been doing this for years. Um, and so, and they understood Americans and understood our anxieties and so on. So they kind of helped us kind of navigate a lot of that kind of stuff. Um.

[Assistant] How did they teach you Songhai?

[User] Uh, we just. Well, there was one other person who was, who was going up north with me, and so we had.

[Assistant] Oh, just the two of you?

[User] Yeah. Well, but they, they, for all, the all the languages. So people were learning several different languages. And so each language group would have an instructor and each group would be 4 or 5 people at the most. And we'd each go into these little groups and they, we'd. It was just kind of going through, uh, learning some basic grammatical stuff and learning vocab, practicing vocabulary, and having conversational practice. And kind of learning, starting with the kind of stuff that you'd probably encounter when you first arrive in your, at your site. So how to go through greetings and talking about food and how to buy stuff at the market and, and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Is Songhai a written language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, we just. Well, there was one other person who was, who was going up north with me, and so we had.

[Assistant] Oh, just the two of you?

[User] Yeah. Well, but they, they, for all, the all the languages. So people were learning several different languages. And so each language group would have an instructor and each group would be 4 or 5 people at the most. And we'd each go into these little groups and they, we'd. It was just kind of going through, uh, learning some basic grammatical stuff and learning vocab, practicing vocabulary, and having conversational practice. And kind of learning, starting with the kind of stuff that you'd probably encounter when you first arrive in your, at your site. So how to go through greetings and talking about food and how to buy stuff at the market and, and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Is Songhai a written language?

[User] Uh, it was not traditionally written, but they've developed a writing for it.

[Assistant] And are they using, uh, an alphabet that's like ours?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Well, but they, they, for all, the all the languages. So people were learning several different languages. And so each language group would have an instructor and each group would be 4 or 5 people at the most. And we'd each go into these little groups and they, we'd. It was just kind of going through, uh, learning some basic grammatical stuff and learning vocab, practicing vocabulary, and having conversational practice. And kind of learning, starting with the kind of stuff that you'd probably encounter when you first arrive in your, at your site. So how to go through greetings and talking about food and how to buy stuff at the market and, and that sort of thing.

[Assistant] Is Songhai a written language?

[User] Uh, it was not traditionally written, but they've developed a writing for it.

[Assistant] And are they using, uh, an alphabet that's like ours?

[User] Yeah. So there's the, most of the Malayan languages have a sort of a national, nationally adopted, uh, writing system that they use for education. Um, so they, uh, that's the one that we use. So it's, it's basically the alphabet that we're used to using with a few additional characters.

[Assistant] But it's not Arabic script?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, it was not traditionally written, but they've developed a writing for it.

[Assistant] And are they using, uh, an alphabet that's like ours?

[User] Yeah. So there's the, most of the Malayan languages have a sort of a national, nationally adopted, uh, writing system that they use for education. Um, so they, uh, that's the one that we use. So it's, it's basically the alphabet that we're used to using with a few additional characters.

[Assistant] But it's not Arabic script?

[User] No, no. It can be written in Arabic and, uh, Malians who are, who know how to write Arabic, write Songhai in Arabic, uh, or using the Arabic alphabet. But, but we learned it using the our Western alphabet.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, that certainly would make it easier.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So there's the, most of the Malayan languages have a sort of a national, nationally adopted, uh, writing system that they use for education. Um, so they, uh, that's the one that we use. So it's, it's basically the alphabet that we're used to using with a few additional characters.

[Assistant] But it's not Arabic script?

[User] No, no. It can be written in Arabic and, uh, Malians who are, who know how to write Arabic, write Songhai in Arabic, uh, or using the Arabic alphabet. But, but we learned it using the our Western alphabet.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, that certainly would make it easier.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] To begin to grasp the sounds.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, no. It can be written in Arabic and, uh, Malians who are, who know how to write Arabic, write Songhai in Arabic, uh, or using the Arabic alphabet. But, but we learned it using the our Western alphabet.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, that certainly would make it easier.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] To begin to grasp the sounds.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say about training before we go up north?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] To begin to grasp the sounds.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say about training before we go up north?

[User] Um. I don't know, I don't think so.

[Assistant] Okay. You must have had some sort of swearing in ceremony at the end of training.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you'd like to say about training before we go up north?

[User] Um. I don't know, I don't think so.

[Assistant] Okay. You must have had some sort of swearing in ceremony at the end of training.

[User] We did, yeah.

[Assistant] And then you're assigned to Asongo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. I don't know, I don't think so.

[Assistant] Okay. You must have had some sort of swearing in ceremony at the end of training.

[User] We did, yeah.

[Assistant] And then you're assigned to Asongo?

[User] Ansongo, yeah.

[Assistant] Ansongo. And, um, how did you, how far away is that from, um, Bamako? And how did you get there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Ansongo, yeah.

[Assistant] Ansongo. And, um, how did you, how far away is that from, um, Bamako? And how did you get there?

[User] So it was, it was, it was pretty, as far away as you could get. It was out there. It was the most, at that time it was the most, the furthest away. I don't know that it was the most isolated, but it was. So you had to go on the main highway out as far as it went toward the east and a little bit north of the main capital. And then the pavement ended at the Niger River, and then there was a ferry to go across the river into the city of Gao.

[Assistant] Ah, yes.

[User] And then from there it's all dirt roads. And it was a two hour. So that drive. It's hard to, I can't remember the distance. I think it was 700 miles or something from Bamako to Gao, and then it was another 60 miles or so from Gao on some dirt road.

[Assistant] So you went from Bamako to Gao on a, in a vehicle of some sort?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then from there it's all dirt roads. And it was a two hour. So that drive. It's hard to, I can't remember the distance. I think it was 700 miles or something from Bamako to Gao, and then it was another 60 miles or so from Gao on some dirt road.

[Assistant] So you went from Bamako to Gao on a, in a vehicle of some sort?

[User] The Peace Corps, the Peace Corps drove me out.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] They had, uh, a fleet of four wheel drive vehicles.

[Assistant] And you'd put your vehicle on a ferry to cross the.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Peace Corps, the Peace Corps drove me out.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] They had, uh, a fleet of four wheel drive vehicles.

[Assistant] And you'd put your vehicle on a ferry to cross the.

[User] To cross the river.

[Assistant] The, which, which you refer to as the Niger. And of course, in Nigeria, we called it the Niger in English.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had, uh, a fleet of four wheel drive vehicles.

[Assistant] And you'd put your vehicle on a ferry to cross the.

[User] To cross the river.

[Assistant] The, which, which you refer to as the Niger. And of course, in Nigeria, we called it the Niger in English.

[User] In English, it's the Niger.

[Assistant] Right. But you were all calling it the Niger.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To cross the river.

[Assistant] The, which, which you refer to as the Niger. And of course, in Nigeria, we called it the Niger in English.

[User] In English, it's the Niger.

[Assistant] Right. But you were all calling it the Niger.

[User] The Niger River, right, because that's.

[Assistant] Rivière, uh, or le fleuve Niger. Le fleuve because it flows into the ocean ultimately.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. So, so then you get to Gao and then from, that's 700 miles right there.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
Wow. That would take how many days?

Well, in the, in the Peace Corps vehicle, it would be, uh, we'd usually do it in a couple of days because there was in Mopti, which is kind of midway between, was a Peace Corps, uh, we called it a stash house, which more Peace Corps-ese. But, uh, a Peace Corps guest house where volunteers who could come in from their sites, um, to, when they came into the main regional capital.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They'd stay there. So they, usually if the Peace Corps took us, which they only did at the beginning and end, um, we'd stop in Mopti and then go to Gao. So it would be an overnight in Mopti and then.

[Assistant] And then another overnight in Gao.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Wow. That would take how many days?

Well, in the, in the Peace Corps vehicle, it would be, uh, we'd usually do it in a couple of days because there was in Mopti, which is kind of midway between, was a Peace Corps, uh, we called it a stash house, which more Peace Corps-ese. But, uh, a Peace Corps guest house where volunteers who could come in from their sites, um, to, when they came into the main regional capital.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] They'd stay there. So they, usually if the Peace Corps took us, which they only did at the beginning and end, um, we'd stop in Mopti and then go to Gao. So it would be an overnight in Mopti and then.

[Assistant] And then another overnight in Gao.

[User] And then another overnight in Gao, and then down to Ansongo. So it could be done in a, in a, if. Yeah, it would be a very long day in a Peace Corps vehicle to go all the way. But typically it would be two days.

[Assistant] Two days. Uh, and then how far away from Gao is Ansongo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They'd stay there. So they, usually if the Peace Corps took us, which they only did at the beginning and end, um, we'd stop in Mopti and then go to Gao. So it would be an overnight in Mopti and then.

[Assistant] And then another overnight in Gao.

[User] And then another overnight in Gao, and then down to Ansongo. So it could be done in a, in a, if. Yeah, it would be a very long day in a Peace Corps vehicle to go all the way. But typically it would be two days.

[Assistant] Two days. Uh, and then how far away from Gao is Ansongo?

[User] So it was it's 60 miles on a very, at that time, it was a very bad road. And so it would take, um, it would take a couple hours.

[Assistant] On an unpaved road.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So it was it's 60 miles on a very, at that time, it was a very bad road. And so it would take, um, it would take a couple hours.

[Assistant] On an unpaved road.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] On a, yeah. A very sandy road, a beautiful, beautiful road. Um, so yeah, the, that. Um, I think I went up with a group of people and stayed overnight in that guest house in Mopti, and then the two of us who were going up further north then went together, and we dropped the Gao volunteer off. Um, and then I went down and they dropped me off in Ansongo.

[Assistant] Oh, so when you went to, when you were in Ansongo, you weren't there with a Peace Corps buddy. It was just you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On a, yeah. A very sandy road, a beautiful, beautiful road. Um, so yeah, the, that. Um, I think I went up with a group of people and stayed overnight in that guest house in Mopti, and then the two of us who were going up further north then went together, and we dropped the Gao volunteer off. Um, and then I went down and they dropped me off in Ansongo.

[Assistant] Oh, so when you went to, when you were in Ansongo, you weren't there with a Peace Corps buddy. It was just you.

[User] I was by myself. Yeah, yeah. The nearest volunteer was two hours away.

[Assistant] In Gao.

[User] In Gao, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's pretty isolated.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was by myself. Yeah, yeah. The nearest volunteer was two hours away.

[Assistant] In Gao.

[User] In Gao, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, that's pretty isolated.

[User] Um, actually I should mention, that's not true. Because when I first arrived there, there was another volunteer there, but he ended up staying for just about six months. Um. Uh, and then moving to a different site. So. So when I first started, he was there all alone. He had been there for six months previous to me, alone. And then when I arrived, then, uh, we were there in the town together. He was a health volunteer, and I was an agriculture volunteer.

[Assistant] Did you share a house?