[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was awesome.

[Assistant] And Peace Corps was fine with your switching off from environmental education.

[User] They I mean, yes, absolutely. I mean, they you know, you do check in with them not often, mind you, but, you know, in the few times that you check in with your supervisor or in my case was the Associate Peace Corps director APCD for environmental action. You know, you, you report to them what, what you've been up to. And I think it was quite clear that I wasn't as if I was sitting on my desk the whole time. I was I was quite active. I was one of the more active volunteers. So they were quite happy with what I'd done. And in fact, so much so that the ambassador came up to inaugurate and this was after my service. But the ambassador came up after the building had been constructed. The ambassador came up to cut the ribbon, as it were, to open up the small facility for Furminger Dry.

[Assistant] So how was the building built, where you involved in building it or who did the building?

[User] No, in fact. Well, I was. The local, local masons were the ones who, who did the building. I was not involved in.

[Assistant] What did what was your role? What you got the funding which clearly helped, but what did you do to help the people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You have to be open-minded. You have to get information. You have to understand processes, whether it’s regarding climate or pollution or extraterrestrial resources, whatever subject might be important to society. It’s necessary to have an understanding as to what are the issues, what are the facts, to try to make intelligent predictions.\n\n If you don’t fund research, you won’t know enough to even know what’s happening today, much less be able to predict what will happen in 50 years from now. The difficulty is you may discover that you forced society into a state where it’s too late to make corrective changes or it’s too late to do the right thing. You have to have foresight. Just ignoring a subject doesn’t provide you the opportunity for accurate foresight.

[Assistant] Is that still in place, that two percent?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Was that Mike [Michael D.] Griffin that you were speaking of, the Administrator?

[User] Mike Griffin is the one to whom that quote it attributed. I hope it’s a misquote.

[Assistant] All the Administrators had different perspectives. That’s one of the things with NASA, they all bring something different.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Was that Mike [Michael D.] Griffin that you were speaking of, the Administrator?

[User] Mike Griffin is the one to whom that quote it attributed. I hope it’s a misquote.

[Assistant] All the Administrators had different perspectives. That’s one of the things with NASA, they all bring something different.

[User] It was very confusing. The SMD [Science Mission Directorate], what’s now called SMD, had formed this beautiful system whereby we had distributed EPO activities around the nation, assisted by centralized coordinating groups that made them more effective. NASA dismantled all that about 10 years ago. But they said, “We can’t do education and public outreach, but you have to do communications and public engagement.” I thought to myself, “Okay, well some of the things we do now we cannot do in the future,” like educator workshops that were so effective. We had to change our approach, but we still have made significant efforts to reach the public and students.\n\n For example, we had quickly learned that doing missionary activities, as I called it, to schoolrooms, were very effective with the 50 students or 25 students you talk to. But that’s a small group for the amount of time you spend. We discovered it was far more important to find interested teachers, bring them to Goddard, or go to where they are, and have a one-week summer session. They would get credit for professional development, and we would spend a whole week telling them about lunar science, space science, whatever. Then they could go, and they would understand the material better so they could use it in their classroom.\n\n We had discovered that some material we were developing for educators they were reluctant to use because they didn’t think they were qualified to answer questions from students. So by raising their level of understanding, giving them a deeper knowledge, they could go to the classroom, answer questions, work with other interested teachers. By doing that, we could multiply the effectiveness of our programs.

[Assistant] Like you mentioned, sometimes scientists have trouble communicating. Did you have trouble finding people to lead those workshops? Or enough people came from an academic background that that was something they did well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We have many skilled people who work in education and public outreach now. They started their career in science. Most of them got through the Master’s degree, and then for various reasons they didn’t go on to a Ph.D. They still want to do science, and they’re very effective at working with students and the public and educators.\n\n These are the people who when NASA decided not to fund these programs, they’re the ones who suffered the most. The educator workshops—it was decided by Headquarters that that does not belong in SMD, it belongs in the Office of Education. Then the Office of Education now may not have continuous existence at NASA Headquarters. There’s a lot of confusion. But at the local level—at the mission level, at the scientist level—I still encourage people. The two percent requirement is no longer a requirement. At one point they took away funding from missions that had it as an identified budget, and they consolidated it, and then it disappeared. In any case, it’s an important activity. I tell people, “Find a way to fund it, and do it.”

[Assistant] I’ve heard that from a couple other people that have mentioned that education is still going to go on. It’s just not going to be, like you said, under that title. It’s not going to be there.

[User] We have to communicate to the public. They said, “Engage the public, communicate, but don’t educate them.”

[Assistant] A little hard to do.

[User] Yes. Anyway, I think it’s very important.

[Assistant] You were, as you said, the Lab Chief for Extraterrestrial Physics for about 10 years. Then you moved to Program Director for the Robotic Lunar Exploration Program.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge] had some beautiful computers they used, but they were few and far between.

[Assistant] And large.

[User] And large. They weren’t distributed. They were all mainframe, so you’d have to wait your turn in line to get to use them for a little bit of time. Analyzing 750 terabytes of data would have been just incredible.\n\n My rocket experiment, I got what we say right now a few kilobytes of data. It took me six months to sift through that to make sure that I had made a valid measurement because of problems with the payload and the rocket and the aurora not cooperating. So times have changed. I tell people that they’re lucky because the tools are better, but you still have to be clever. The one tool that people haven’t invented is a machine that’s more clever than a human.

[Assistant] Even though they try, don’t they.

[User] They claim they have. But most of them aren’t as clever as they claim they are.

[Assistant] There have been a lot of things—like you said, the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, the amount of work that that was able to do. There’s a lot of things in the news also with Cassini because of the Grand Finale and everything that’s happening there. Also a few weeks ago Jim [James L.] Green and NASA Headquarters announced the findings from Saturn’s moon Enceladus.\n\n So there’s a lot of very exciting things going on right now, with these announcements and some of the things that are coming back and the information hopefully that’s going to come from that last Grand Finale with Cassini. Talk about some of the information that’s coming out, and maybe hopefully where you see that leading to.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s do the models, first. The last one I got into was for going to the Moon, of course. This is the 9 x 10 test section, 9 feet across and 7 feet up, see [demonstrates]? For tall people, you had to be careful walking. To get back and forth—here’s that slab I told you that supports the model. To go to the front, you had to duck under this. You had a bad back after you worked there a while.\n\n This is a picture, about ’61, and this is the Apollo capsule. One of the things they worried about for launch is if something happens to the booster down below, they want to be able to get the astronauts quickly off, and so they put this ejection system.

[Assistant] The Launch Escape System?

[User] Yes, you’ve heard about it? Fortunately, they never had to use it. They were looking at different configurations that would do the job. This one had put different extensions on. Again, we were measuring the forces at the various angles, and measuring forces in pitching moments, yaw and so forth.\n\n Then I also ran it with the model of the Apollo Command Module in a different position, the position that it would go through in entry and landing. I think I ran this just at the lower Mach number, but all three tunnels, I went with the Command Module itself and measured entry dynamics at entry speeds. All the way from 0.7 [Mach] in the 11-foot, and moved it over to the 9 x 7 at 1.5 to 2.5 Mach, and then the one that never runs again, the 3.5 foot, at 2.5 to 3.5 Mach.

[Assistant] How long would it take when you were moving it around, to set it up, run the tests, get the numbers?

[User] A couple days. There were things that were common between test sections so that made it somewhat better, but still you had to hook up and test.

[Assistant] To get the results, how long would that take?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, you’ve heard about it? Fortunately, they never had to use it. They were looking at different configurations that would do the job. This one had put different extensions on. Again, we were measuring the forces at the various angles, and measuring forces in pitching moments, yaw and so forth.\n\n Then I also ran it with the model of the Apollo Command Module in a different position, the position that it would go through in entry and landing. I think I ran this just at the lower Mach number, but all three tunnels, I went with the Command Module itself and measured entry dynamics at entry speeds. All the way from 0.7 [Mach] in the 11-foot, and moved it over to the 9 x 7 at 1.5 to 2.5 Mach, and then the one that never runs again, the 3.5 foot, at 2.5 to 3.5 Mach.

[Assistant] How long would it take when you were moving it around, to set it up, run the tests, get the numbers?

[User] A couple days. There were things that were common between test sections so that made it somewhat better, but still you had to hook up and test.

[Assistant] To get the results, how long would that take?

[User] Results would come out fast because that was a modern tunnel at that time, and they were hooked directly into the computer building over here.

[Assistant] Okay, so you were already moving in that direction?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A couple days. There were things that were common between test sections so that made it somewhat better, but still you had to hook up and test.

[Assistant] To get the results, how long would that take?

[User] Results would come out fast because that was a modern tunnel at that time, and they were hooked directly into the computer building over here.

[Assistant] Okay, so you were already moving in that direction?

[User] Yes, and we would get them—I don’t know if it was at this time period—we were online with the computer, and we got the data back right on the controls section and plot it out. Just about the way they do it now, easier and faster. That was very exciting, to be a part of that.

[Assistant] You mentioned the usage of the electricity. Did most of these tests run at night, or were they after-hours?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Results would come out fast because that was a modern tunnel at that time, and they were hooked directly into the computer building over here.

[Assistant] Okay, so you were already moving in that direction?

[User] Yes, and we would get them—I don’t know if it was at this time period—we were online with the computer, and we got the data back right on the controls section and plot it out. Just about the way they do it now, easier and faster. That was very exciting, to be a part of that.

[Assistant] You mentioned the usage of the electricity. Did most of these tests run at night, or were they after-hours?

[User] The ones that you wanted to run at higher speed and higher pressures, yes, they did, but they didn’t worry so much about it in those days. It was wartime, still, in ’55. This is after Korea, but still, we were in the Cold War. There’s the Unitary [demonstrates]. Are you familiar with that facility?

[Assistant] I’ve heard of it and seen pictures of it. That’s about as familiar as I am.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, and we would get them—I don’t know if it was at this time period—we were online with the computer, and we got the data back right on the controls section and plot it out. Just about the way they do it now, easier and faster. That was very exciting, to be a part of that.

[Assistant] You mentioned the usage of the electricity. Did most of these tests run at night, or were they after-hours?

[User] The ones that you wanted to run at higher speed and higher pressures, yes, they did, but they didn’t worry so much about it in those days. It was wartime, still, in ’55. This is after Korea, but still, we were in the Cold War. There’s the Unitary [demonstrates]. Are you familiar with that facility?

[Assistant] I’ve heard of it and seen pictures of it. That’s about as familiar as I am.

[User] It is unique. It has one motor system. The motor section is in here [demonstrates], and it can either drive the compressor on this side or the compressor on the other. Since I left, they boxed it in for noise purposes. The subsonic one is over here—the lower Mach number, I should say—and then the higher Mach numbers were done in two ways. This is the 9 foot section and the flow goes—let’s see, you’ve got to get it the right way. Yes, it goes out this way, comes around, and this is continuous flow. If they’re using this section, then they had turning vanes in here. Big cans turn with vanes in them to direct the flow around this circuit instead of that circuit. Pretty complex. Amazing facility, and very, very good data came out of that for many years.\n\n What’s next? I guess that’s probably enough for that period of my 38 years here.

[Assistant] Just to go back, when you first started at NACA, did you have any knowledge of what the NACA was doing?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’ve flown across the country a few times. One time, it was fun to go with another Seagull owner and we went all the way over to Cape Canaveral [Florida], and got to see a launch of Gemini. I think it was the Gemini V mission in ’65. I forget the astronauts that were on board, but boy, did that thing go out. It had a very high thrust away, and it just, poof! No smoke because it was hypergolic fuel that just ignited on contact. That was exciting.

[Assistant] That’s quite an experience, getting to see that launch.\n\n Had you had any experience with wind tunnels before you came here, or was this all new when you got here?

[User] We had a small wind tunnel at the University of Minnesota, a little over subsonic. It was interesting, but I never ran anything there. I guess some of the graduate students probably did some of their thesis using that tunnel. They had an adjunct facility south of the Twin Cities where they had the high pressure air devices. They actually got some pretty high speed there, and I wanted to work there. Somehow I didn’t get accepted, but there were more sophisticated facilities there, too.

[Assistant] You mentioned some of those programs, and of course some of them were classified. Do you remember the process to get clearance to work on those projects?

[User] I forgot who does that anymore, but the people come around and check you out, and they go around to people whose names you give to them, or people they think might have known you, and see how bad you were in the past. I guess I passed.

[Assistant] Yes, I guess you did, if you got to work on this. Were there any other projects during those early years that you can recall that you worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We had a small wind tunnel at the University of Minnesota, a little over subsonic. It was interesting, but I never ran anything there. I guess some of the graduate students probably did some of their thesis using that tunnel. They had an adjunct facility south of the Twin Cities where they had the high pressure air devices. They actually got some pretty high speed there, and I wanted to work there. Somehow I didn’t get accepted, but there were more sophisticated facilities there, too.

[Assistant] You mentioned some of those programs, and of course some of them were classified. Do you remember the process to get clearance to work on those projects?

[User] I forgot who does that anymore, but the people come around and check you out, and they go around to people whose names you give to them, or people they think might have known you, and see how bad you were in the past. I guess I passed.

[Assistant] Yes, I guess you did, if you got to work on this. Were there any other projects during those early years that you can recall that you worked on?

[User] You mean still in the wind tunnel area?

[Assistant] Yes, in NACA, those first couple of years when you were there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I forgot who does that anymore, but the people come around and check you out, and they go around to people whose names you give to them, or people they think might have known you, and see how bad you were in the past. I guess I passed.

[Assistant] Yes, I guess you did, if you got to work on this. Were there any other projects during those early years that you can recall that you worked on?

[User] You mean still in the wind tunnel area?

[Assistant] Yes, in NACA, those first couple of years when you were there?

[User] No, it was pretty much just all in the wind tunnel there.

[Assistant] What about the transition, when it transitioned from NACA to NASA. In ’57, of course Sputnik [Russian satellite], and then the transition a year later? Can you talk about that time period and maybe what the atmosphere was here at Ames and what people were saying?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You mean still in the wind tunnel area?

[Assistant] Yes, in NACA, those first couple of years when you were there?

[User] No, it was pretty much just all in the wind tunnel there.

[Assistant] What about the transition, when it transitioned from NACA to NASA. In ’57, of course Sputnik [Russian satellite], and then the transition a year later? Can you talk about that time period and maybe what the atmosphere was here at Ames and what people were saying?

[User] It was good that Ames was a high-speed research center because that’s what it was all about. Measuring how you recover capsules, and of course, during the Cold War, a lot of the work to design ballistic missile systems. The heads would have to go into the atmosphere and not blow up before they got to the target. Who’s our famous guy who used to be our Director?

[Assistant] Harvey [Julius] Allen?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] George Low, thank you. He gave the go ahead, and now North was looking over this whole thing, and was the interface between Low and us. It was mechanized—not for Apollo 11, though. The first one it was put on was Apollo 12, which is rather ironic because what happened on Apollo 12?

[Assistant] The lightning strike.

[User] What went bad? The stuff up above. Anything electronic was fine; the analog system down below, von Braun’s system, just kept running. Then they got into orbit and they weren’t sure if they were going to finish the mission, but they were able to upload backup to the Command Module and get everything running again, continue with it. It was never used, but it was there for the rest of the flights, as far as I know. It was one of the more exciting programs I got involved in.

[Assistant] It was interesting, the Centers were working together.

[User] This is Frank [F.] Borman [II], by the way [demonstrates], you recognize him. I think that’s at your Center, not ours. Any more on that one?

[Assistant] I was just mentioning that the Centers were working together on that. Was that the first time you’d done that across Centers, on any of the projects you’d worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What went bad? The stuff up above. Anything electronic was fine; the analog system down below, von Braun’s system, just kept running. Then they got into orbit and they weren’t sure if they were going to finish the mission, but they were able to upload backup to the Command Module and get everything running again, continue with it. It was never used, but it was there for the rest of the flights, as far as I know. It was one of the more exciting programs I got involved in.

[Assistant] It was interesting, the Centers were working together.

[User] This is Frank [F.] Borman [II], by the way [demonstrates], you recognize him. I think that’s at your Center, not ours. Any more on that one?

[Assistant] I was just mentioning that the Centers were working together on that. Was that the first time you’d done that across Centers, on any of the projects you’d worked on?

[User] The things that I worked on, yes.

[Assistant] Was that very common, to do that, to share information?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] This is Frank [F.] Borman [II], by the way [demonstrates], you recognize him. I think that’s at your Center, not ours. Any more on that one?

[Assistant] I was just mentioning that the Centers were working together on that. Was that the first time you’d done that across Centers, on any of the projects you’d worked on?

[User] The things that I worked on, yes.

[Assistant] Was that very common, to do that, to share information?

[User] When needed, yes, especially if the facilities were the best ones to use, yes. Did that in Flight Research, too, so yes. That’s the way it should work. Our biggest competition was with [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia], and probably still is. Those don’t always go as smoothly as you’d like. Sometimes they have to be forced, “You will do it.” That was another exciting time.\n\n What happened after that? What else did I get into in Guidance & Control?

[Assistant] You’ve got on your list “atmospheric turbulence modeling.”


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The things that I worked on, yes.

[Assistant] Was that very common, to do that, to share information?

[User] When needed, yes, especially if the facilities were the best ones to use, yes. Did that in Flight Research, too, so yes. That’s the way it should work. Our biggest competition was with [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia], and probably still is. Those don’t always go as smoothly as you’d like. Sometimes they have to be forced, “You will do it.” That was another exciting time.\n\n What happened after that? What else did I get into in Guidance & Control?

[Assistant] You’ve got on your list “atmospheric turbulence modeling.”

[User] Yes, so later on into Apollo, in actual flights we weren’t needed, so we went back into aeronautics issues and problems. One of the things that I got into was, as it says, remodeling the turbulence of the atmosphere as well as we could for pilot simulations. There’s some feeling that maybe it got a little more jerky than we expected, so we did some tests on that. One of the tests, I worked with the University of Washington [Seattle]. They had some good ideas, and they had some models they came up with.\n\n There was a simulator that was on the side of the 40 x 80 Wind Tunnel over there on the south side, where now we have the vanes. Before the vanes were put in, and the new section was built, didn’t have that stuff there. We had a vertical motion simulator out there, I don’t know if you’ve seen any pictures of that. Dan [Daniel C.] Dugan was one of my subjects when we were flying it. We’d program it to move up and down and got some data on it, and then we also did tests in the big simulator down there.

[Assistant] The Vertical Motion Simulator?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was a party guy, I guess. I used to organize parties for the Unitary people. One of the big, fancy parties was over at—the bottom of the [San Francisco] Bay here, a restaurant down there. What’s the name of the little city down at the end of the Bay?

[Assistant] You mean San Jose?

[User] Near San Jose, but there’s a small town over there. There was a restaurant run by this couple. I don’t know if it’s still going or not, but people [would ask], “Why do you want to go there?” A good price and good Italian food, so they had a good time. We organized some other things too, of course. I know, reading Jack Boyd’s, he talked about the family things, including Santa Claus coming in on the helicopter and things like that. I guess we were doing it at that time too, so yes, that was an interesting way to meet people, and also other groups within the Center, so that was good.

[Assistant] Niles?

[User] No, Niles is across the Bay. Alviso. Alviso, yes. It’s the pride of the South Bay. There’s a saying, but I won’t say it.

[Assistant] Okay, we’ll have to look for that one. Also during that time in the transition from NACA to NASA, was there a change in the way the work was assigned? I know a lot of the work was research-driven because individuals had a chance to pick research and do different things that they wanted to do research on. Once NASA was formed, and of course we were going to the Moon and all of that was happening, it was more of a goal-oriented research. Do you remember any sort of change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Near San Jose, but there’s a small town over there. There was a restaurant run by this couple. I don’t know if it’s still going or not, but people [would ask], “Why do you want to go there?” A good price and good Italian food, so they had a good time. We organized some other things too, of course. I know, reading Jack Boyd’s, he talked about the family things, including Santa Claus coming in on the helicopter and things like that. I guess we were doing it at that time too, so yes, that was an interesting way to meet people, and also other groups within the Center, so that was good.

[Assistant] Niles?

[User] No, Niles is across the Bay. Alviso. Alviso, yes. It’s the pride of the South Bay. There’s a saying, but I won’t say it.

[Assistant] Okay, we’ll have to look for that one. Also during that time in the transition from NACA to NASA, was there a change in the way the work was assigned? I know a lot of the work was research-driven because individuals had a chance to pick research and do different things that they wanted to do research on. Once NASA was formed, and of course we were going to the Moon and all of that was happening, it was more of a goal-oriented research. Do you remember any sort of change?

[User] I think we were already on that path beforehand. There was more money, and more opportunities to contribute, so that was good.

[Assistant] So it picked up more than anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, Niles is across the Bay. Alviso. Alviso, yes. It’s the pride of the South Bay. There’s a saying, but I won’t say it.

[Assistant] Okay, we’ll have to look for that one. Also during that time in the transition from NACA to NASA, was there a change in the way the work was assigned? I know a lot of the work was research-driven because individuals had a chance to pick research and do different things that they wanted to do research on. Once NASA was formed, and of course we were going to the Moon and all of that was happening, it was more of a goal-oriented research. Do you remember any sort of change?

[User] I think we were already on that path beforehand. There was more money, and more opportunities to contribute, so that was good.

[Assistant] So it picked up more than anything?

[User] But the emphasis, of course, was space rather than aeronautics. The things had to come back down through the air, so aeronautics was still needed.

[Assistant] It was still important. What do you think would be your most significant contribution during your time here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think we were already on that path beforehand. There was more money, and more opportunities to contribute, so that was good.

[Assistant] So it picked up more than anything?

[User] But the emphasis, of course, was space rather than aeronautics. The things had to come back down through the air, so aeronautics was still needed.

[Assistant] It was still important. What do you think would be your most significant contribution during your time here?

[User] I think the work on Saturn V [rocket] program, I’d have to say that.

[Assistant] What do you think was the most challenging thing you worked on?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the emphasis, of course, was space rather than aeronautics. The things had to come back down through the air, so aeronautics was still needed.

[Assistant] It was still important. What do you think would be your most significant contribution during your time here?

[User] I think the work on Saturn V [rocket] program, I’d have to say that.

[Assistant] What do you think was the most challenging thing you worked on?

[User] Saturn V.

[Assistant] Still the Saturn V?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think the work on Saturn V [rocket] program, I’d have to say that.

[Assistant] What do you think was the most challenging thing you worked on?

[User] Saturn V.

[Assistant] Still the Saturn V?

[User] Yes. I don’t know how many years we worked on that—at least two, three?

[Assistant]
And it was rewarding, too. I was going to ask Rebecca if she has any questions.

I just have one. When you came here in 1955, do you remember what your expectations were, and do you feel like they were met, working here at the Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Saturn V.

[Assistant] Still the Saturn V?

[User] Yes. I don’t know how many years we worked on that—at least two, three?

[Assistant]
And it was rewarding, too. I was going to ask Rebecca if she has any questions.

I just have one. When you came here in 1955, do you remember what your expectations were, and do you feel like they were met, working here at the Center?

[User] I think George Edwards, my interviewer, gave me a pretty good idea, but no, it’s never quite what you expect. He described—it wasn’t Silicon Valley yet—the Valley of Heart’s Delight, and how nice it was to live here. I was looking forward to that, and that turned out to be very true. I had access to information about the facility. Not as much as you have now, with zip-zip-zip on your computer, but yes.\n\n Certainly I didn’t expect what a facility that the Unitary Wind Tunnel Plan was. I think people that build submarines made that tunnel because it’s built like you have to make for a submarine, except the pressures hold on the inside, and it’s the pressure coming from the outside, from the water. You’re purposefully pressurizing so you get a higher Reynolds number, more accurate, more added data that can be matched to real flight.

[Assistant] You joined such a prestigious organization when you got here. Ames had already been able to do great research. Do you feel like, as a new person, the way that the organization was set up here, your ideas and your recommendations, your discoveries, were treasured and honored as much as anyone else? Do you feel like even if you were a new person, you were contributing just as much as others?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I don’t know how many years we worked on that—at least two, three?

[Assistant]
And it was rewarding, too. I was going to ask Rebecca if she has any questions.

I just have one. When you came here in 1955, do you remember what your expectations were, and do you feel like they were met, working here at the Center?

[User] I think George Edwards, my interviewer, gave me a pretty good idea, but no, it’s never quite what you expect. He described—it wasn’t Silicon Valley yet—the Valley of Heart’s Delight, and how nice it was to live here. I was looking forward to that, and that turned out to be very true. I had access to information about the facility. Not as much as you have now, with zip-zip-zip on your computer, but yes.\n\n Certainly I didn’t expect what a facility that the Unitary Wind Tunnel Plan was. I think people that build submarines made that tunnel because it’s built like you have to make for a submarine, except the pressures hold on the inside, and it’s the pressure coming from the outside, from the water. You’re purposefully pressurizing so you get a higher Reynolds number, more accurate, more added data that can be matched to real flight.

[Assistant] You joined such a prestigious organization when you got here. Ames had already been able to do great research. Do you feel like, as a new person, the way that the organization was set up here, your ideas and your recommendations, your discoveries, were treasured and honored as much as anyone else? Do you feel like even if you were a new person, you were contributing just as much as others?

[User] There was a little paragraph in Jack Boyd’s [interview] that I identify with, “All these people are so much smarter than me.” Remember that? Yes, I felt that, and boy, I felt I was very lucky to be here, and I enjoyed the challenges that they provided. I just admired what good people they had here.

[Assistant] Did you find it very nurturing, that they were helping you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a little paragraph in Jack Boyd’s [interview] that I identify with, “All these people are so much smarter than me.” Remember that? Yes, I felt that, and boy, I felt I was very lucky to be here, and I enjoyed the challenges that they provided. I just admired what good people they had here.

[Assistant] Did you find it very nurturing, that they were helping you?

[User] Yes. You had to ask. You didn’t want to screw up.

[Assistant]
Thank you.

Glenn, do you have anything?

Just a few about the Unitary, again the NACA. Some of the people that would have been your managers, I’m guessing Smith [J.] DeFrance, Ralph [F.] Huntsberger, Jack [John W.] Parsons. Who were the people that were managing you, and how often did you interact with them and what did you learn from them?

[User] Everybody reported to our branch chief, but there were mentors within the group. Usually, a junior engineer was put with the more senior person. In my case, that was Vernon Gnos that did that fighter testing. Then, when I was doing other things, had a fellow named Dick [Richard] Madison we worked with on turbulence programs. I forget who else I worked with, but then as I got more senior, I was pretty much on my own, except for reporting to the assistant branch chief. It was pretty much within the branch.\n\n I always admired DeFrance. I was just reading more today about his background, and he was an amazing guy. What he did to help build this thing, build the big facilities and then manage very successfully, and guide the younger people—I think very admirable.

[Assistant] The Unitary was very specifically designed to help the military services and commercial aircraft manufacture, so a lot of what you would have been doing is interacting with the aircraft firms that were coming in to get their aircraft tested. What was that like in the NACA days, as opposed to the NASA days, for example? Really close interaction with the military services? Did you see a lot of them around? Were they working hand-in-hand with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My pleasure.

[Assistant] You’ve spent more than 20 years involved with aspects of the International Space Station.

[User] That’s hard to believe.

[Assistant] Especially in the field of medical operations and research. If you’d start today by sharing with us what you believe to be some of the most significant challenges during these years.

[User] I think some of the most significant challenges of course were working with our international partners. In particular working with our former Cold War adversaries, our Russian friends. I started in the Shuttle-Mir Program as we were working our joint missions flying cosmonauts on the Space Shuttle, flying astronauts on the Soyuz once at least, and then up to the Mir Station for long duration flights. We were also at the same time giving birth to the notion of an International Space Station in place of Space Station Freedom.\n\n Those of us that were heavily involved in the Shuttle-Mir Program realized two things. How wonderful it would be, because we found that we could work with our Russian counterparts quite well, and how difficult it would be, because they do things very differently than we do. I think if anybody had asked us what a good model for making a Space Station would be, the answer would not have been to choose a major partner who speaks another language, who uses metric system rather than English system, who has a totally different engineering philosophy, safety culture, methods of operation, methods of manning. All of that was different.\n\n We realized just how different by working Shuttle-Mir. Putting that together into a Space Station Program we knew was going to be very difficult. The flip side of that is that the Shuttle-Mir Program set us up to do that quite brilliantly. Without the Shuttle-Mir Program I can’t imagine starting from scratch and going into such a large program as the International Space Station.

[Assistant] You found lots of differences, but what were the commonalities that moved you forward?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] One thing. Recently I was asked to talk to some students from the Bauman Institute in Moscow [Bauman Moscow State Technical University]. This is an aviation/aerospace engineering institute. It’s the top tier in Russia. These are really smart kids. They were seniors and juniors in college, and I was asked to speak to them about my experience working Shuttle-Mir and working collaboratively with the International Space Station.\n\n It occurred to me that we’ve been working collaboratively with our Russian counterparts longer than these kids have been alive. Everything we did to build our coalitions after the Cold War and after the Soviet Union collapsed and after our own space program was drifting a bit—everything we did was history to them. They didn’t really live it like we did. The fact that they can just read in a book that we were old Cold War adversaries and that we were more competitive in space, but now accept the new norm of collaboration—we don’t know any other way to work, as long as these kids have been alive, I think is wonderful. I think it’s one of the best testaments to our International Space Program ever.

[Assistant] It’s a nice history for them to reflect back on. It’s good common ground there.

[User] It is. Again it’s the norm of everyone their age right now. That’s really I think the best legacy we’ve built so far. They look so young too. They were younger than four out of five of my kids.

[Assistant] I was thinking about your kids because basically your kids have always had a Station.

[User] Yes, they literally have grown up with this.

[Assistant] It’s like your other home for them.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It is. Again it’s the norm of everyone their age right now. That’s really I think the best legacy we’ve built so far. They look so young too. They were younger than four out of five of my kids.

[Assistant] I was thinking about your kids because basically your kids have always had a Station.

[User] Yes, they literally have grown up with this.

[Assistant] It’s like your other home for them.

[User] I spent five years Russia. They also see it as the enemy in a way. It’s like a military deploy.

[Assistant] Thank you for this morning and sharing the thoughts. We appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we really were. You really could do that. In fact, we got to where you could run each EVA day pretty much end to end, as it would really work, with quite high fidelity. Of course, that gives you a lot of confidence, going into the flight, that you really have thought through the things you need to do, to do the tasks. So you can’t beat it.\n\n Most of the arm training I had done prior to the deployment mission had been in simulators where the arm and the Hubble were computer images. So this is really the first opportunity to do something with a real Hubble mockup and a real EVA crewmember and a real arm. We had the MDF [Manipulator Development Facility] for training for the Hubble deploy with the balloon, but I didn’t think that training was very realistic because of the dynamics of the balloon and the way it moved around in Building 9. But this was very realistic, and we were able to do each EVA day just pretty much exactly as we did it in flight.

[Assistant] So the launch, was this the one that went off without any delay?

[User] Yes, in fact, we launched two days early, for whatever reason. I don’t actually now remember. I think when we were assigned, our original launch date was February 13th, and they ended up moving it up to February 11th, and we actually launched on February the 11th. It was the most amazing thing.

[Assistant] No delays.

[User] No delays, yes.

[Assistant] After you launched, and I think it was Day Three when you actually prepared to capture the Hubble, can you describe that for us and walk us through that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] How long was it after you came back before you got the assignment for STS-93?

[User] Seems like it was about a year. I don’t remember exactly, but, yes, it seems like it was about a year. Maybe not quite a year.

[Assistant] Do you remember why you got this assignment, or why you were chosen for this flight? Or was it because it was another observatory mission?

[User] I think that was part of it. I think they also were looking for an experienced person for that mission. The pilot was a rookie. One of the other MS’s [Mission Specialist] was a rookie. On Shuttle, Michel [Tognini] had flown on Mir previously. I think [Catherine G.] Cady [Coleman] had flown once, and this was Eileen’s [M. Collins] first command, so it was a relatively junior crew. I think they were looking for somebody experienced to add to the mix of relatively less experienced people.\n\n Truthfully, I told them “no” when they asked me to do it, merely because I thought I really hadn’t been back in my real job that long yet, and I didn’t think that it was appropriate for me to step aside and fly again that soon. But they pestered me, and so I did it, finally. But I honestly told them that I didn’t think that was the right thing to do.

[Assistant] What changed your mind?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Seems like it was about a year. I don’t remember exactly, but, yes, it seems like it was about a year. Maybe not quite a year.

[Assistant] Do you remember why you got this assignment, or why you were chosen for this flight? Or was it because it was another observatory mission?

[User] I think that was part of it. I think they also were looking for an experienced person for that mission. The pilot was a rookie. One of the other MS’s [Mission Specialist] was a rookie. On Shuttle, Michel [Tognini] had flown on Mir previously. I think [Catherine G.] Cady [Coleman] had flown once, and this was Eileen’s [M. Collins] first command, so it was a relatively junior crew. I think they were looking for somebody experienced to add to the mix of relatively less experienced people.\n\n Truthfully, I told them “no” when they asked me to do it, merely because I thought I really hadn’t been back in my real job that long yet, and I didn’t think that it was appropriate for me to step aside and fly again that soon. But they pestered me, and so I did it, finally. But I honestly told them that I didn’t think that was the right thing to do.

[Assistant] What changed your mind?

[User] My boss told me to do it: [Laughs] He thought it was the right thing to do. So I said, “Yes, sir.”

[Assistant] Do what your boss says. Well, I imagine there was some interest in this flight, mainly because of Eileen Collins, the first time for a female commander.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think that was part of it. I think they also were looking for an experienced person for that mission. The pilot was a rookie. One of the other MS’s [Mission Specialist] was a rookie. On Shuttle, Michel [Tognini] had flown on Mir previously. I think [Catherine G.] Cady [Coleman] had flown once, and this was Eileen’s [M. Collins] first command, so it was a relatively junior crew. I think they were looking for somebody experienced to add to the mix of relatively less experienced people.\n\n Truthfully, I told them “no” when they asked me to do it, merely because I thought I really hadn’t been back in my real job that long yet, and I didn’t think that it was appropriate for me to step aside and fly again that soon. But they pestered me, and so I did it, finally. But I honestly told them that I didn’t think that was the right thing to do.

[Assistant] What changed your mind?

[User] My boss told me to do it: [Laughs] He thought it was the right thing to do. So I said, “Yes, sir.”

[Assistant] Do what your boss says. Well, I imagine there was some interest in this flight, mainly because of Eileen Collins, the first time for a female commander.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did that affect the training at all, or do you have any memories of that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My boss told me to do it: [Laughs] He thought it was the right thing to do. So I said, “Yes, sir.”

[Assistant] Do what your boss says. Well, I imagine there was some interest in this flight, mainly because of Eileen Collins, the first time for a female commander.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did that affect the training at all, or do you have any memories of that?

[User] Well, it certainly had the potential to affect the training some. She was very good about being very focused on training and protecting the crew as best she could from the publicity associated with her role as the first female commander. She was actually, on that basis, certainly a very good choice to be the first female commander. She was certainly dedicated to not letting that interfere with—and the system was pretty good about protecting us as best it could. Again, we understood it was important, and we also understand that we had a certain obligation to meet some of the demands of the attendant publicity associated with her being the commander, but I think we were also able to kind of keep it in perspective, and I thought she handled it very well.\n\n It helped, also, probably, that the flight ended up with some delay. So the time we had to train was longer than we would have had, had we launched on the original schedule, and that was kind of good, because it allowed us to do both more training and more of the PR [public relations] stuff before the launch.

[Assistant] Can you describe some of the training that you did for this flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, nothing that is really major. We did have the treadmill that is actually on the Station as a demonstration. That was kind of fun, because several of us on the crew like to run. So to get to try out the treadmill was interesting.\n\n The thing I remember about it, though, is that the way they had it stored, they had it stored below the mid-deck floor in a stowage volume that’s kind of back in under the forward lockers. And I was absolutely convinced that we would never, ever be able to get it back in there. And [Jeffrey S.] Jeff Ashby did it. I don’t know how, but he did it. I remember even telling the ground, “Hey, when we disassemble it, there is no way we’re going to be able to get it stowed back in here.” And he did. Somehow he managed to get it in there. So that was kind of interesting.

[Assistant] After this flight, you resumed your duties as the Deputy Director, and then were promoted to Director in October of 2001. Is that correct?

[User] Yes. [James D.] Jim Wetherbee got to go fly again, and so Mr. [Roy S.] Estess asked me if I’d be Director.

[Assistant] Anything about that position that you’d like to share?

[User] Seemed like it was about the same job I’d been doing. Actually, when I was Deputy, I don’t remember exactly, it may’ve been [19]’98 when Dave left and Jim came in and took over. He flew once or twice, anyway, while he and I were working together, so I felt I had a lot of experience being the Director. So it really wasn’t that big a thing to have the title officially.

[Assistant] What were some of the duties or responsibilities that you had during that position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Did you have anything to do with any of the flight crews that were chosen for those missions or that residence?

[User] I certainly consulted in some of the selections. I was also part of the Phase I Program Mission Management Team, so as there were technical issues, the Director or I would be involved in trying to resolve them.\n\n I remember when [Norman E.] Norm [Thagard] was selected to be the first Shuttle-Mir crewmember. I had argued that I thought that would be a good choice, first of all, because he was a doctor, but secondly, because, frankly, he really wanted to do it, and I felt that one of the most important qualities of someone in a position like that is that they really want to go do it. He really wanted to go do that. He really wanted to become part of their program, not just be an astronaut flying with the Russians, but he wanted to go over and be cosmonaut-trained and be part of their program. I thought that was a good trait. So I remember arguing for his selection, and was glad that that worked out.

[Assistant] Did you have any dealings with the other astronauts that came here and did training, some of the Russian astronauts?

[User] Some, but actually, not a lot. We didn’t have anything to do with selecting them. Typically they were selected by either Energia or GCTC [Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center]. We would track their progress, but in that job you’re not directly involved in the actual training activities. I got to know some of them on an individual cosmonaut-to-astronaut level. We’re all very similar, kind of similar types of backgrounds and similar types of interests and similar kinds of challenges and meeting the training objectives and getting the mission done and all that.\n\n I suppose the first time I saw that, it was kind of an interesting surprise to realize that, hey, fundamentally cosmonauts and astronauts are kind of the same people. Maybe that shouldn’t be surprising.

[Assistant] You’ve recently moved into another position, also, Associate Director of AstroMaterials Research and Exploration Science.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] First, when I got out of high school, I got an offer to work there as an under-aircraft model maker, but that was in 1941. Anyway, I didn’t take that job. In [19]’56, I was working at Bell Labs [Laboratories], and I thought it was politically best to move. I was offered, at Bell Labs, to go to the New Jersey location and work part-time towards a master’s degree, but I knew there were political problems. They never hired anybody that way. So I got several other offers.\n\n And the day of my leaving, at dinner I got the phone call. I was thinking I was going to go to New Jersey to Bell Labs and start graduate work. It was the guy that was going to hire me there, and he was very defensive. Anyway, he was turning me off.\n\n So I was interested at National Advisory [Committee for Aeronautics], NACA, and so I took that offer at NACA.

[Assistant] What were your duties going to be at NACA?

[User] Initially, I [worked on] the anti-ICBM [Intercontinental Ballistic Missile] study, sort of the feasibility, not as to accuracy, but it’s the feasibility from time and energy to intercept an ICBM.\n\n Shortly after that, the Space Task Group [STG] came about, and this was all at the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division, which is where the nucleus started, and I chose to go there, and I went to work in guidance and control there.

[Assistant] How did you make the transition to the Space Task Group? Did they approach you, or was this something you were interested in?

[User] There were only maybe twenty people about that time, and people expressed an interest. Then [the Space Task Group] chose who they wanted to talk with, and I was one of those. I went to work for [Robert G.] Bob Chilton in guidance and control-type stuff.

[Assistant] What did you know about the nation’s goal of sending an American in space at the time that you transferred over to the STG?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Initially, I [worked on] the anti-ICBM [Intercontinental Ballistic Missile] study, sort of the feasibility, not as to accuracy, but it’s the feasibility from time and energy to intercept an ICBM.\n\n Shortly after that, the Space Task Group [STG] came about, and this was all at the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division, which is where the nucleus started, and I chose to go there, and I went to work in guidance and control there.

[Assistant] How did you make the transition to the Space Task Group? Did they approach you, or was this something you were interested in?

[User] There were only maybe twenty people about that time, and people expressed an interest. Then [the Space Task Group] chose who they wanted to talk with, and I was one of those. I went to work for [Robert G.] Bob Chilton in guidance and control-type stuff.

[Assistant] What did you know about the nation’s goal of sending an American in space at the time that you transferred over to the STG?

[User] As soon as the Russians put one up, they had all these lectures on space, and I felt it was more interesting to move on to the space project rather than to continue working at the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division. [The Space Task Group] moved across the campus to some very ancient buildings in a giant bullpen-type configuration.

[Assistant] Could you share with us what it was like during those first few days of discussion?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As soon as the Russians put one up, they had all these lectures on space, and I felt it was more interesting to move on to the space project rather than to continue working at the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division. [The Space Task Group] moved across the campus to some very ancient buildings in a giant bullpen-type configuration.

[Assistant] Could you share with us what it was like during those first few days of discussion?

[User] There was a lot of enthusiasm, and the organization was rather loose, so everybody talked up and down to everyone. Since I knew everyone anyway, and I was also a model airplane enthusiast and [Maxime A.] Faget was also one, and we had flown together. So most of the people then knew everyone.\n\n Then they started to expand slightly. The Canadian group came down. When the Canadian aircraft thing folded [A. V. Roe Canada Ltd. (AVRO) Aircraft, Malton, Ontario, Canada], they brought down about twenty-five people. I presume you’ve interviewed about that part.

[Assistant] Some, yes.

[User] When the [CF-105] Arrow there, fighter aircraft, was cancelled, then they chose, supposedly, the most promising group, and it came down with James [A.] Chamberlin, and they did well.

[Assistant] What did the Flight Control Section start working on, and how did you develop your plan of what needed to be done for your part of the STG?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When the [CF-105] Arrow there, fighter aircraft, was cancelled, then they chose, supposedly, the most promising group, and it came down with James [A.] Chamberlin, and they did well.

[Assistant] What did the Flight Control Section start working on, and how did you develop your plan of what needed to be done for your part of the STG?

[User] They investigated a lot of wild ideas, and Faget always like to have a large solid rocket booster and so on. Then it began to focus down, and Faget’s group configured the Mercury capsule. I believe several of them, including [William E.] Bill Stoney, [Jr.], got patents on that shape, and so we converged on that configuration. Initially, it didn’t have any window, except a porthole on one side, and that was felt—you know the sardine passenger, that was felt [demeaning to the astronaut]. I think it was much better that they installed a window in the Mercury capsule, a very funny window. Then they had so many panes in the window for safety that there were optical problems, and the astronaut had to be trained to do navigation by the stars through the window.\n\n Then the guidance and control problem came up, and we had to do simulations of that where we had to orient to the Earth with a scanner which bisected the signal from the Earth to give you the vertical, and that took a bit of study. Then just the logistics of the Mercury Project and monitoring all of the contractual work where you would go out occasionally to McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation] and may be on duty for thirty-six hours for verifying every step for the testing of the Mercury capsule. I would generally go out with an astronaut or two, and there [were] a lot of funny stories there.

[Assistant] … When you were working with Mr. Chilton, were you part of the Flight Dynamics Evaluation Team that actually came up with the specs for the Mercury capsule?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would you share with us how that team worked and how you were able to come up with those specific requirements for McDonnell Aircraft?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They investigated a lot of wild ideas, and Faget always like to have a large solid rocket booster and so on. Then it began to focus down, and Faget’s group configured the Mercury capsule. I believe several of them, including [William E.] Bill Stoney, [Jr.], got patents on that shape, and so we converged on that configuration. Initially, it didn’t have any window, except a porthole on one side, and that was felt—you know the sardine passenger, that was felt [demeaning to the astronaut]. I think it was much better that they installed a window in the Mercury capsule, a very funny window. Then they had so many panes in the window for safety that there were optical problems, and the astronaut had to be trained to do navigation by the stars through the window.\n\n Then the guidance and control problem came up, and we had to do simulations of that where we had to orient to the Earth with a scanner which bisected the signal from the Earth to give you the vertical, and that took a bit of study. Then just the logistics of the Mercury Project and monitoring all of the contractual work where you would go out occasionally to McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation] and may be on duty for thirty-six hours for verifying every step for the testing of the Mercury capsule. I would generally go out with an astronaut or two, and there [were] a lot of funny stories there.

[Assistant] … When you were working with Mr. Chilton, were you part of the Flight Dynamics Evaluation Team that actually came up with the specs for the Mercury capsule?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would you share with us how that team worked and how you were able to come up with those specific requirements for McDonnell Aircraft?

[User] There was no structure, somewhat. Just everybody started in and wrote and criticized everyone else, and it evolved from that. McDonnell was a worthy contractor, so things went fairly smoothly after the contract was awarded.

[Assistant] You mentioned visiting with them—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Would you share with us how that team worked and how you were able to come up with those specific requirements for McDonnell Aircraft?

[User] There was no structure, somewhat. Just everybody started in and wrote and criticized everyone else, and it evolved from that. McDonnell was a worthy contractor, so things went fairly smoothly after the contract was awarded.

[Assistant] You mentioned visiting with them—

[User] So we invited them to propose to us a configuration, and that congealed it, but we knew what we wanted, and so it was pretty straightforward. They came back with what we expected them to propose.

[Assistant] After Mercury, or during that time, the transition began or the talk began of opening up the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC] in Houston [Texas]. Can you tell us how that affected you and your family and your working and moving here?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was no structure, somewhat. Just everybody started in and wrote and criticized everyone else, and it evolved from that. McDonnell was a worthy contractor, so things went fairly smoothly after the contract was awarded.

[Assistant] You mentioned visiting with them—

[User] So we invited them to propose to us a configuration, and that congealed it, but we knew what we wanted, and so it was pretty straightforward. They came back with what we expected them to propose.

[Assistant] After Mercury, or during that time, the transition began or the talk began of opening up the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC] in Houston [Texas]. Can you tell us how that affected you and your family and your working and moving here?

[User] Well, it tore the family structure up. Really, the reason for coming to Houston was somewhat nebulous. My wife was a psychiatrist and directing the Child Guidance Center at Virginia Beach, [Virginia] and so it was very disruptive to come here. Also, when we get here, the number of people coming onboard was just astronomical compared to the initial group. And many people didn’t come, and wandered off into other areas of NASA.

[Assistant] How did that affect your working group to have an influx of new people?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we invited them to propose to us a configuration, and that congealed it, but we knew what we wanted, and so it was pretty straightforward. They came back with what we expected them to propose.

[Assistant] After Mercury, or during that time, the transition began or the talk began of opening up the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC] in Houston [Texas]. Can you tell us how that affected you and your family and your working and moving here?

[User] Well, it tore the family structure up. Really, the reason for coming to Houston was somewhat nebulous. My wife was a psychiatrist and directing the Child Guidance Center at Virginia Beach, [Virginia] and so it was very disruptive to come here. Also, when we get here, the number of people coming onboard was just astronomical compared to the initial group. And many people didn’t come, and wandered off into other areas of NASA.

[Assistant] How did that affect your working group to have an influx of new people?

[User] Well, [initially] the new people that came in were very few in each [area], and they were all the really select group from the AVRO Program. So the only political problem was James Chamberlin, the head of the AVRO thing, and he was a remarkably bright fellow. He kind of husbanded all the information to himself, if he could, and he didn’t like to tell anybody else anything. But he was a very worthy in the lead, so it was not too bad.

[Assistant] What were your first impressions of the new home that you and your family would have here in the Houston area?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it tore the family structure up. Really, the reason for coming to Houston was somewhat nebulous. My wife was a psychiatrist and directing the Child Guidance Center at Virginia Beach, [Virginia] and so it was very disruptive to come here. Also, when we get here, the number of people coming onboard was just astronomical compared to the initial group. And many people didn’t come, and wandered off into other areas of NASA.

[Assistant] How did that affect your working group to have an influx of new people?

[User] Well, [initially] the new people that came in were very few in each [area], and they were all the really select group from the AVRO Program. So the only political problem was James Chamberlin, the head of the AVRO thing, and he was a remarkably bright fellow. He kind of husbanded all the information to himself, if he could, and he didn’t like to tell anybody else anything. But he was a very worthy in the lead, so it was not too bad.

[Assistant] What were your first impressions of the new home that you and your family would have here in the Houston area?

[User] Well, my wife was somewhat distressed because she came from directing a psychiatric center, so she entered the training program for a specialty in child guidance at Baylor [College of Medicine, Houston, Texas], so that she rapidly became involved in that, but it was disruptive to have moved to a small frog in a big pond, is the way she put it.

[Assistant] Did you live nearby the Space Center?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, [initially] the new people that came in were very few in each [area], and they were all the really select group from the AVRO Program. So the only political problem was James Chamberlin, the head of the AVRO thing, and he was a remarkably bright fellow. He kind of husbanded all the information to himself, if he could, and he didn’t like to tell anybody else anything. But he was a very worthy in the lead, so it was not too bad.

[Assistant] What were your first impressions of the new home that you and your family would have here in the Houston area?

[User] Well, my wife was somewhat distressed because she came from directing a psychiatric center, so she entered the training program for a specialty in child guidance at Baylor [College of Medicine, Houston, Texas], so that she rapidly became involved in that, but it was disruptive to have moved to a small frog in a big pond, is the way she put it.

[Assistant] Did you live nearby the Space Center?

[User] Initially, we were all somewhat around the Gulfgate area, and so we rented a house not far from there. Then in about a year there was an area which used to be largely Jewish got block-busted, and they dumped the homes for nothing, like a 3,500-square-foot prime piece of property might sell for [forty] grand, where the legitimate price might be for three times that. So we bought there when it was still convenient to work, but then, of course, I had to commute. After they started to build out here, with the commute, it was easy for her, but long, you know, forty minutes for me.

[Assistant] How did your work schedule change? Were your days now longer when the group moved to Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, my wife was somewhat distressed because she came from directing a psychiatric center, so she entered the training program for a specialty in child guidance at Baylor [College of Medicine, Houston, Texas], so that she rapidly became involved in that, but it was disruptive to have moved to a small frog in a big pond, is the way she put it.

[Assistant] Did you live nearby the Space Center?

[User] Initially, we were all somewhat around the Gulfgate area, and so we rented a house not far from there. Then in about a year there was an area which used to be largely Jewish got block-busted, and they dumped the homes for nothing, like a 3,500-square-foot prime piece of property might sell for [forty] grand, where the legitimate price might be for three times that. So we bought there when it was still convenient to work, but then, of course, I had to commute. After they started to build out here, with the commute, it was easy for her, but long, you know, forty minutes for me.

[Assistant] How did your work schedule change? Were your days now longer when the group moved to Houston?

[User] You would get, perhaps, if things got pressured, you might work very extensive hours. Just depended on how the pressure was and what the situation was. If you went out to McDonnell, you might be on duty thirty-six hours in a row. But the hours were whatever—whatever was needed was done.

[Assistant] What was the main focus of your work once you arrived in Houston? What were you and your group attempting to accomplish?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You would get, perhaps, if things got pressured, you might work very extensive hours. Just depended on how the pressure was and what the situation was. If you went out to McDonnell, you might be on duty thirty-six hours in a row. But the hours were whatever—whatever was needed was done.

[Assistant] What was the main focus of your work once you arrived in Houston? What were you and your group attempting to accomplish?

[User] We started the various challenges to handle the Mercury capsule and attitude control of the Mercury capsule, the guidance of Mercury capsule, and that occupied us. And we had to, of course, support each mission. For example, you had to husband the fuel for attitude control because you had to have enough left [for re-entry]. When the space vehicle had to come back, it had to damp any oscillations. If you didn’t damp the oscillations, it might start spinning and just pulverize the astronaut.\n\n One of our astronauts was wasting the fuel doing frivolous things. I tried my best to stop him. We stopped him in time from using it too much, but he didn’t seem to be paying much attention to, “Stop using the attitude control. Stop it, stop it, stop it.” I don’t know whether he got reprimanded. I presume he got reprimanded later for that.

[Assistant] As you were working on Mercury, were you also beginning to work on some of the—

[User] Well, the Gemini was off to the side, and it was just scaled up of the same technology. Then the Apollo thing started to arise, and just monitoring what was going on was the main activity since they are about a hundred times more in the contractor side of the house than in the NASA side of the house.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had worked with McDonnell Aircraft. Were there other contractors—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We started the various challenges to handle the Mercury capsule and attitude control of the Mercury capsule, the guidance of Mercury capsule, and that occupied us. And we had to, of course, support each mission. For example, you had to husband the fuel for attitude control because you had to have enough left [for re-entry]. When the space vehicle had to come back, it had to damp any oscillations. If you didn’t damp the oscillations, it might start spinning and just pulverize the astronaut.\n\n One of our astronauts was wasting the fuel doing frivolous things. I tried my best to stop him. We stopped him in time from using it too much, but he didn’t seem to be paying much attention to, “Stop using the attitude control. Stop it, stop it, stop it.” I don’t know whether he got reprimanded. I presume he got reprimanded later for that.

[Assistant] As you were working on Mercury, were you also beginning to work on some of the—

[User] Well, the Gemini was off to the side, and it was just scaled up of the same technology. Then the Apollo thing started to arise, and just monitoring what was going on was the main activity since they are about a hundred times more in the contractor side of the house than in the NASA side of the house.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had worked with McDonnell Aircraft. Were there other contractors—

[User] I didn’t work with them. NASA people went out to McDonnell to monitor each checkout of every vehicle.

[Assistant] Were there other companies or institutions—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the Gemini was off to the side, and it was just scaled up of the same technology. Then the Apollo thing started to arise, and just monitoring what was going on was the main activity since they are about a hundred times more in the contractor side of the house than in the NASA side of the house.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you had worked with McDonnell Aircraft. Were there other contractors—

[User] I didn’t work with them. NASA people went out to McDonnell to monitor each checkout of every vehicle.

[Assistant] Were there other companies or institutions—

[User] There were lots of subcontractors to McDonnell, yes.

[Assistant] But were you also involved in going out to do oversight and monitoring their work?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn’t work with them. NASA people went out to McDonnell to monitor each checkout of every vehicle.

[Assistant] Were there other companies or institutions—

[User] There were lots of subcontractors to McDonnell, yes.

[Assistant] But were you also involved in going out to do oversight and monitoring their work?

[User] For example, MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology Instrumentation Lab, Cambridge, Massachusetts] was doing a navigational instrument, and we were involved in that effort, where you take shots on stars in case—if in an emergency you had to manually bring the vehicle back in the proper form and so on. They had these backup modes of navigation, whereas really the thing could do everything automatically if so it needed to be done. The astronauts didn’t want the last maneuvers [to be done] automatically. They wanted to actually guide the thing.

[Assistant] How did that difference of procedure get agreed upon?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There were lots of subcontractors to McDonnell, yes.

[Assistant] But were you also involved in going out to do oversight and monitoring their work?

[User] For example, MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology Instrumentation Lab, Cambridge, Massachusetts] was doing a navigational instrument, and we were involved in that effort, where you take shots on stars in case—if in an emergency you had to manually bring the vehicle back in the proper form and so on. They had these backup modes of navigation, whereas really the thing could do everything automatically if so it needed to be done. The astronauts didn’t want the last maneuvers [to be done] automatically. They wanted to actually guide the thing.

[Assistant] How did that difference of procedure get agreed upon?

[User] That’s how the window got in there. Until they could see out, what could they do? The porthole in the side window couldn’t do much, so at great expense to reconfigure the vehicle to incorporate this strange window—I think it had about five panes of glass in it; quartz, really. Of course, glass is very fragile, and you worry about damage in orbit and so on. So there was a lot of activity on the astronauts doing their thing as [back-up] if none of the automatic things work[ed].

[Assistant] At what point did you start working on or with, for the Apollo Program? Was it a natural transition of the work that you were doing with Mercury and Gemini?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I made mockups of what would happen, and I made the pitch, and I sold it. So they stuck me with being the manager. So, somehow or another, I got to be considered an optical person, and it was really a hobby. Optical questions seemed to come to me, were brought to me.

[Assistant] Could you share a few more details of how your idea and once you sold the idea, how it became a reality? How long did it take?

[User] We were very concerned to have a decent way to study the landing and the rendezvous back with the mother vehicle, and we were desperate to do a proper job with that. This is the thing that solved the [visual] problem. Hence, at least I seemed to have no resistance selling it, although it was very expensive for the time.

[Assistant] Was G.E. the manufacturer that helped you create the product?

[User] G.E. was showing us they could generate digital scenes, and Farand was showing us how they could make it appear to be a window looking out at reality. So I brought the two together, and I wrote the request for proposals, and they went out. Of course, I knew that [G.E. and Farand were the only group] worthy of doing the job.

[Assistant] How long did it take to implement the product and get it to the standard that you wanted to have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We were very concerned to have a decent way to study the landing and the rendezvous back with the mother vehicle, and we were desperate to do a proper job with that. This is the thing that solved the [visual] problem. Hence, at least I seemed to have no resistance selling it, although it was very expensive for the time.

[Assistant] Was G.E. the manufacturer that helped you create the product?

[User] G.E. was showing us they could generate digital scenes, and Farand was showing us how they could make it appear to be a window looking out at reality. So I brought the two together, and I wrote the request for proposals, and they went out. Of course, I knew that [G.E. and Farand were the only group] worthy of doing the job.

[Assistant] How long did it take to implement the product and get it to the standard that you wanted to have?

[User] I’m having to make a wild guess. Less than a year. Of course, everything was very pressed at the time.

[Assistant] How was the new product received by those who were beginning to use it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] G.E. was showing us they could generate digital scenes, and Farand was showing us how they could make it appear to be a window looking out at reality. So I brought the two together, and I wrote the request for proposals, and they went out. Of course, I knew that [G.E. and Farand were the only group] worthy of doing the job.

[Assistant] How long did it take to implement the product and get it to the standard that you wanted to have?

[User] I’m having to make a wild guess. Less than a year. Of course, everything was very pressed at the time.

[Assistant] How was the new product received by those who were beginning to use it?

[User] It worked great. Everybody was happy. They’re still using it. I don’t know whether they’re still doing it or not, but the lunar surface texture when they had not too much computer capacity, they made my initials, FTP, as the background pattern like a rug. I don’t think they still have that. I haven’t been there back to look.

[Assistant] Was that a surprise for you or did it—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I’m having to make a wild guess. Less than a year. Of course, everything was very pressed at the time.

[Assistant] How was the new product received by those who were beginning to use it?

[User] It worked great. Everybody was happy. They’re still using it. I don’t know whether they’re still doing it or not, but the lunar surface texture when they had not too much computer capacity, they made my initials, FTP, as the background pattern like a rug. I don’t think they still have that. I haven’t been there back to look.

[Assistant] Was that a surprise for you or did it—

[User] Well, kind of, but I was the branch head, see, so they catered to the boss, I guess.

[Assistant] As it became more enhanced—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It worked great. Everybody was happy. They’re still using it. I don’t know whether they’re still doing it or not, but the lunar surface texture when they had not too much computer capacity, they made my initials, FTP, as the background pattern like a rug. I don’t think they still have that. I haven’t been there back to look.

[Assistant] Was that a surprise for you or did it—

[User] Well, kind of, but I was the branch head, see, so they catered to the boss, I guess.

[Assistant] As it became more enhanced—

[User] Eventually it looks just as good as you would see—you see occasionally scenes of an airplane on TV, which are generated with a computer. As the memory gets greater and greater and greater, you can keep adding detail until you get enough that you can saturate what the eye expects to see, and then it looks real. But at the time, they were somewhat simplified because we didn’t have as much memory.

[Assistant] Do you recall the first times that the astronauts began using it for simulation? Were you there when—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, kind of, but I was the branch head, see, so they catered to the boss, I guess.

[Assistant] As it became more enhanced—

[User] Eventually it looks just as good as you would see—you see occasionally scenes of an airplane on TV, which are generated with a computer. As the memory gets greater and greater and greater, you can keep adding detail until you get enough that you can saturate what the eye expects to see, and then it looks real. But at the time, they were somewhat simplified because we didn’t have as much memory.

[Assistant] Do you recall the first times that the astronauts began using it for simulation? Were you there when—

[User] Well, I presume they went back and sold their bosses that we had to have their training simulators do the same thing, so they took what we did and made trainers of the same technique.

[Assistant] That’s pretty interesting. How long were you in this area of development and enriching and enhancing the virtual system?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I didn’t have any problem. [I found it easy] to communicate with them.

[Assistant] Are there other examples of experiments and projects that you were able to make happen?

[User] Well, Gene Shoemaker, he wanted to have a mapping camera of the lunar surface. I worked that interface, and we started that project. But it got corrupted further downstream of being too elaborate, and the contractor never did successfully complete it. When the funds came in, it was given to a different organization, and they didn’t discipline the scientist enough to make him come down to reality. It was too much to put in a small box.\n\n Gene Shoemaker. You, of course, know of Shoemaker.

[Assistant] Yes, sir.

[User] He was killed in an automobile wreck in Australia a couple years back. Shoemaker was well liked, but he and Gold were real enemies and debated. The debates were always an entertainment.

[Assistant] Did you happen to get to witness some of those?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, Gene Shoemaker, he wanted to have a mapping camera of the lunar surface. I worked that interface, and we started that project. But it got corrupted further downstream of being too elaborate, and the contractor never did successfully complete it. When the funds came in, it was given to a different organization, and they didn’t discipline the scientist enough to make him come down to reality. It was too much to put in a small box.\n\n Gene Shoemaker. You, of course, know of Shoemaker.

[Assistant] Yes, sir.

[User] He was killed in an automobile wreck in Australia a couple years back. Shoemaker was well liked, but he and Gold were real enemies and debated. The debates were always an entertainment.

[Assistant] Did you happen to get to witness some of those?

[User] I saw the debates since I was having to work with them. I was the contact with both scientists [for their lunar cameras].

[Assistant] That must, on occasion, have challenging aspects. Were there many scientists that wanted to put projects with the missions, but maybe didn’t have enough room?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was killed in an automobile wreck in Australia a couple years back. Shoemaker was well liked, but he and Gold were real enemies and debated. The debates were always an entertainment.

[Assistant] Did you happen to get to witness some of those?

[User] I saw the debates since I was having to work with them. I was the contact with both scientists [for their lunar cameras].

[Assistant] That must, on occasion, have challenging aspects. Were there many scientists that wanted to put projects with the missions, but maybe didn’t have enough room?

[User] There was a very limited amount of cargo space, and they confined the area for Gold’s thing to a certain size, which was enough to do the job. But then Shoemaker’s was confined very much, and it couldn’t—it was just too small to do as much as he wanted to do. Perhaps it could have been done, but the contractor never delivered the successful hardware. [Many worthy experiments could not be accommodated.]

[Assistant] Could you explain the process of how a scientist, once their project was accepted, that it would be flown on a mission and how you were involved?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I saw the debates since I was having to work with them. I was the contact with both scientists [for their lunar cameras].

[Assistant] That must, on occasion, have challenging aspects. Were there many scientists that wanted to put projects with the missions, but maybe didn’t have enough room?

[User] There was a very limited amount of cargo space, and they confined the area for Gold’s thing to a certain size, which was enough to do the job. But then Shoemaker’s was confined very much, and it couldn’t—it was just too small to do as much as he wanted to do. Perhaps it could have been done, but the contractor never delivered the successful hardware. [Many worthy experiments could not be accommodated.]

[Assistant] Could you explain the process of how a scientist, once their project was accepted, that it would be flown on a mission and how you were involved?

[User] At [NASA] Headquarters [panels] debate[d] on whether someone’s experiment is blessed or not. But as soon as it’s blessed, we wrote up requirements for proposals for the hardware needed to accomplish the experiment as desired. It was a very short time to do some of them. Some of them were sole-sourced and some of them were competed. The competitions—well, for example, Shoemaker’s handheld mapping camera, there might have been a half a dozen contractors bid it. Some of the proposals were ridiculous. The one that won it was not up to finishing the job [for a complicated camera in a confined space]. It was a very small company that won, not one of the larger ones. It was composed mostly of Hungarian Jewish refugees.

[Assistant] In this new job, did you find there was a great deal of interest in the scientific community in being a part of the new space program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was a very limited amount of cargo space, and they confined the area for Gold’s thing to a certain size, which was enough to do the job. But then Shoemaker’s was confined very much, and it couldn’t—it was just too small to do as much as he wanted to do. Perhaps it could have been done, but the contractor never delivered the successful hardware. [Many worthy experiments could not be accommodated.]

[Assistant] Could you explain the process of how a scientist, once their project was accepted, that it would be flown on a mission and how you were involved?

[User] At [NASA] Headquarters [panels] debate[d] on whether someone’s experiment is blessed or not. But as soon as it’s blessed, we wrote up requirements for proposals for the hardware needed to accomplish the experiment as desired. It was a very short time to do some of them. Some of them were sole-sourced and some of them were competed. The competitions—well, for example, Shoemaker’s handheld mapping camera, there might have been a half a dozen contractors bid it. Some of the proposals were ridiculous. The one that won it was not up to finishing the job [for a complicated camera in a confined space]. It was a very small company that won, not one of the larger ones. It was composed mostly of Hungarian Jewish refugees.

[Assistant] In this new job, did you find there was a great deal of interest in the scientific community in being a part of the new space program?

[User] Everybody was gung-ho, and money was no problem.

[Assistant] How were you involved with the Lunar Receiving Laboratory?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] At [NASA] Headquarters [panels] debate[d] on whether someone’s experiment is blessed or not. But as soon as it’s blessed, we wrote up requirements for proposals for the hardware needed to accomplish the experiment as desired. It was a very short time to do some of them. Some of them were sole-sourced and some of them were competed. The competitions—well, for example, Shoemaker’s handheld mapping camera, there might have been a half a dozen contractors bid it. Some of the proposals were ridiculous. The one that won it was not up to finishing the job [for a complicated camera in a confined space]. It was a very small company that won, not one of the larger ones. It was composed mostly of Hungarian Jewish refugees.

[Assistant] In this new job, did you find there was a great deal of interest in the scientific community in being a part of the new space program?

[User] Everybody was gung-ho, and money was no problem.

[Assistant] How were you involved with the Lunar Receiving Laboratory?

[User] I was not involved with that. We were worried about there being something toxic, some mysterious virus or what have you, so they were very uptight about handling any of the return samples, yet they overlooked the fact the film cassettes we brought back had lunar dust all over them, and we cleaned those and we had all the waste. It looks like coal dust. Lunar soil looks like coal dust, that dark. If it had been something hazardous, we would have certainly spread it around. But they were real uptight about [something being] dangerous.\n\n A lot of things were dangerous. The reaction controls for attitude control, the chemical was very poisonous. By the time if you smelled it, it was too late, you were going to be dead. The same thing was used on the Shuttle. The attitude controls for the Shuttle are very toxic.

[Assistant] The work that you did prior to Apollo 11, of course, led up to the success of the lunar landing. Could you share with us where you were when the\n\n Eagle\n\n landed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Everybody was gung-ho, and money was no problem.

[Assistant] How were you involved with the Lunar Receiving Laboratory?

[User] I was not involved with that. We were worried about there being something toxic, some mysterious virus or what have you, so they were very uptight about handling any of the return samples, yet they overlooked the fact the film cassettes we brought back had lunar dust all over them, and we cleaned those and we had all the waste. It looks like coal dust. Lunar soil looks like coal dust, that dark. If it had been something hazardous, we would have certainly spread it around. But they were real uptight about [something being] dangerous.\n\n A lot of things were dangerous. The reaction controls for attitude control, the chemical was very poisonous. By the time if you smelled it, it was too late, you were going to be dead. The same thing was used on the Shuttle. The attitude controls for the Shuttle are very toxic.

[Assistant] The work that you did prior to Apollo 11, of course, led up to the success of the lunar landing. Could you share with us where you were when the\n\n Eagle\n\n landed?

[User] When the\n\n Eagle\n\n landed, at the time I was doing the interface for the science for other experiments, and the celebration was not so much the landing as the return. That was the real celebration.

[Assistant] Were you here in Houston?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was not involved with that. We were worried about there being something toxic, some mysterious virus or what have you, so they were very uptight about handling any of the return samples, yet they overlooked the fact the film cassettes we brought back had lunar dust all over them, and we cleaned those and we had all the waste. It looks like coal dust. Lunar soil looks like coal dust, that dark. If it had been something hazardous, we would have certainly spread it around. But they were real uptight about [something being] dangerous.\n\n A lot of things were dangerous. The reaction controls for attitude control, the chemical was very poisonous. By the time if you smelled it, it was too late, you were going to be dead. The same thing was used on the Shuttle. The attitude controls for the Shuttle are very toxic.

[Assistant] The work that you did prior to Apollo 11, of course, led up to the success of the lunar landing. Could you share with us where you were when the\n\n Eagle\n\n landed?

[User] When the\n\n Eagle\n\n landed, at the time I was doing the interface for the science for other experiments, and the celebration was not so much the landing as the return. That was the real celebration.

[Assistant] Were you here in Houston?

[User] For the first mission, the control center had the VIP [Very Important People] lounge where the scientists were supposed to be. [Since I was a co-investigator with T. Gold, I was there.] There must have been about fifteen or twenty of us. Wernher von Braun [was] there. Later on, people want[ed] to get in there, and they crowded everybody out unless you had a political clout to get in the control center. The overview is like a balcony looking down at the control center.\n\n Then the first mission when the astronauts landed, everybody was jumping up around and waving flags and things.

[Assistant] After the success of this first landing, was there an increase of requests from scientists to become more a part?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When the\n\n Eagle\n\n landed, at the time I was doing the interface for the science for other experiments, and the celebration was not so much the landing as the return. That was the real celebration.

[Assistant] Were you here in Houston?

[User] For the first mission, the control center had the VIP [Very Important People] lounge where the scientists were supposed to be. [Since I was a co-investigator with T. Gold, I was there.] There must have been about fifteen or twenty of us. Wernher von Braun [was] there. Later on, people want[ed] to get in there, and they crowded everybody out unless you had a political clout to get in the control center. The overview is like a balcony looking down at the control center.\n\n Then the first mission when the astronauts landed, everybody was jumping up around and waving flags and things.

[Assistant] After the success of this first landing, was there an increase of requests from scientists to become more a part?

[User] See, we didn’t see all those proposals coming in. Headquarters only sent us back the worthiest of them. We had lots of nutcase calls, and we had to field those, a lot of crazy stuff.

[Assistant] So you got those here, as well as at Headquarters.