[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Jack Knight, neighbor of mine, lives two blocks from me. I sat beside him of course. He was basically my mentor on console. Jack is brilliant, a good operator, and just a good man. He really helped me a great deal.

[Assistant] What did you learn from him? Was he TELMU [Telemetry, Electrical and EVA Mobility Officer] for Apollo?

[User] Yes, he was. Two things probably really stood out. He never guessed anything. Of course not guessing is something that goes back in the control center ever since the beginning, it really does. You could tell he wouldn’t sit there and say, “I think, maybe.” He would pay attention to the data and take his time. If he didn’t know for sure he would tell flight director, “Stand by, I think I’ve got it here. Just give me a minute.”\n\n Since I was riding recovery ships during Apollo and I wasn’t in that environment, he taught me all the nuances of being an operator in Mission Control, in the room. How you communicate with each other in a way where you’re being very precise, to the point. He studied a lot. I learned all those nuances of being a person that would sit there at a console, look at what you got, decide what’s going on, make a decision.

[Assistant] In his interview Jack mentioned that there was a woman who was working with you guys.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Which I thought was unusual. Were there many women who were working in flight control for the ALT?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he was. Two things probably really stood out. He never guessed anything. Of course not guessing is something that goes back in the control center ever since the beginning, it really does. You could tell he wouldn’t sit there and say, “I think, maybe.” He would pay attention to the data and take his time. If he didn’t know for sure he would tell flight director, “Stand by, I think I’ve got it here. Just give me a minute.”\n\n Since I was riding recovery ships during Apollo and I wasn’t in that environment, he taught me all the nuances of being an operator in Mission Control, in the room. How you communicate with each other in a way where you’re being very precise, to the point. He studied a lot. I learned all those nuances of being a person that would sit there at a console, look at what you got, decide what’s going on, make a decision.

[Assistant] In his interview Jack mentioned that there was a woman who was working with you guys.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Which I thought was unusual. Were there many women who were working in flight control for the ALT?

[User] Yes. I can’t remember her name right now.

[Assistant] I think I have it in here.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Which I thought was unusual. Were there many women who were working in flight control for the ALT?

[User] Yes. I can’t remember her name right now.

[Assistant] I think I have it in here.

[User] I should.

[Assistant]
No, actually I don’t. I thought I had it in here. I thought it was Ann.

Yes, it was Ann Austin.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I can’t remember her name right now.

[Assistant] I think I have it in here.

[User] I should.

[Assistant]
No, actually I don’t. I thought I had it in here. I thought it was Ann.

Yes, it was Ann Austin.

[User] Yes. Ann Austin. Oh, wait a minute. Yes.

[Assistant] The one with Larry [E.] Bell.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I should.

[Assistant]
No, actually I don’t. I thought I had it in here. I thought it was Ann.

Yes, it was Ann Austin.

[User] Yes. Ann Austin. Oh, wait a minute. Yes.

[Assistant] The one with Larry [E.] Bell.

[User] To answer your question, we had Linda [P.] Patterson in there back in the guidance and navigation area for ALT. Linda Patterson was there. In fact, I think I sent you yesterday a listing of all the people. It may even show another [woman].\n\n There was no need to spend a lot of money setting up a control room that had all the bells and whistles, at least the bells and whistles that existed in the Apollo days. Therefore, we found ways to do some of the jobs the old-fashioned way. Ann would sit between Jack and I with a clipboard and graph paper. We had auxiliary power units, APUs, the equipment that generated our hydraulic power. Of course they used hydrazine; they used fuel. She would look at the data on the console. She would look at the fuel quantity number and plot it on graph paper about every minute. Instead of having something that we could look at there [on console] and have it done by the computer, we would look down here at the graph paper, and we could tell if the auxiliary power unit was operating as it should, using the fuel like it should. That’s how we kept track of the usage rate of the fuel. That’s what she did. She basically provided that service to us, just another set of eyes to look at the data and tap us on the shoulder and say, “Have you seen that? What do you think about that?”\n\n She was also learning herself to eventually become an operator. I lost track of her. I don’t know what she did after that. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. That’s pretty old-school.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] To answer your question, we had Linda [P.] Patterson in there back in the guidance and navigation area for ALT. Linda Patterson was there. In fact, I think I sent you yesterday a listing of all the people. It may even show another [woman].\n\n There was no need to spend a lot of money setting up a control room that had all the bells and whistles, at least the bells and whistles that existed in the Apollo days. Therefore, we found ways to do some of the jobs the old-fashioned way. Ann would sit between Jack and I with a clipboard and graph paper. We had auxiliary power units, APUs, the equipment that generated our hydraulic power. Of course they used hydrazine; they used fuel. She would look at the data on the console. She would look at the fuel quantity number and plot it on graph paper about every minute. Instead of having something that we could look at there [on console] and have it done by the computer, we would look down here at the graph paper, and we could tell if the auxiliary power unit was operating as it should, using the fuel like it should. That’s how we kept track of the usage rate of the fuel. That’s what she did. She basically provided that service to us, just another set of eyes to look at the data and tap us on the shoulder and say, “Have you seen that? What do you think about that?”\n\n She was also learning herself to eventually become an operator. I lost track of her. I don’t know what she did after that. I don’t remember.

[Assistant] That’s interesting. That’s pretty old-school.

[User] Yes, it is. But sure enough that’s exactly what we did. We just looked down at this piece of graph paper. What’s interesting is that we did simulations. They would put in fuel leaks. After a while you can tell.

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] Fast-forward to when I started doing Shuttle work and we had strip-chart recorders sitting beside us. She was our strip-chart recorder. She was quieter than our strip-chart recorders too that we used in the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] Oh, no doubt.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, it is. But sure enough that’s exactly what we did. We just looked down at this piece of graph paper. What’s interesting is that we did simulations. They would put in fuel leaks. After a while you can tell.

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] Fast-forward to when I started doing Shuttle work and we had strip-chart recorders sitting beside us. She was our strip-chart recorder. She was quieter than our strip-chart recorders too that we used in the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] Oh, no doubt.

[User] Having said that makes me think. This thought just popped in my mind. It got where I could sit in the back room during Shuttle in the position I worked during that time, and I could tell by the servomotor pitch, the sound of the motors, when things were changing on the spacecraft resulting in the pens moving on the strip-chart recorders. I could tell just by listening to it. I had to go look at it then, but I could say, “Oh, I hear.” Pitch gets higher on the strip-chart recorder. “Something’s changed.” I go over and take a look at it.

[Assistant] You mentioned the sims that you guys did. Was the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator] running by that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Fast-forward to when I started doing Shuttle work and we had strip-chart recorders sitting beside us. She was our strip-chart recorder. She was quieter than our strip-chart recorders too that we used in the Shuttle Program.

[Assistant] Oh, no doubt.

[User] Having said that makes me think. This thought just popped in my mind. It got where I could sit in the back room during Shuttle in the position I worked during that time, and I could tell by the servomotor pitch, the sound of the motors, when things were changing on the spacecraft resulting in the pens moving on the strip-chart recorders. I could tell just by listening to it. I had to go look at it then, but I could say, “Oh, I hear.” Pitch gets higher on the strip-chart recorder. “Something’s changed.” I go over and take a look at it.

[Assistant] You mentioned the sims that you guys did. Was the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator] running by that point?

[User] For ALT? Yes, we had a simulator. Yes, we did. Over in Building 5 on a wall was a model of the Edwards Air Force Base [California] buildings, roads, runways. They had a visual that they could track to come into Edwards from all directions. If you went in Building 5, the wall was like a model Air Force base with little buildings and roads, and it had a camera mounted on it that would move along as they’re flying.

[Assistant] As they’re landing. That’s interesting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Having said that makes me think. This thought just popped in my mind. It got where I could sit in the back room during Shuttle in the position I worked during that time, and I could tell by the servomotor pitch, the sound of the motors, when things were changing on the spacecraft resulting in the pens moving on the strip-chart recorders. I could tell just by listening to it. I had to go look at it then, but I could say, “Oh, I hear.” Pitch gets higher on the strip-chart recorder. “Something’s changed.” I go over and take a look at it.

[Assistant] You mentioned the sims that you guys did. Was the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator] running by that point?

[User] For ALT? Yes, we had a simulator. Yes, we did. Over in Building 5 on a wall was a model of the Edwards Air Force Base [California] buildings, roads, runways. They had a visual that they could track to come into Edwards from all directions. If you went in Building 5, the wall was like a model Air Force base with little buildings and roads, and it had a camera mounted on it that would move along as they’re flying.

[Assistant] As they’re landing. That’s interesting.

[User] Yes, we had a good simulator. I got to fly it one time as a matter of fact. They put in things to make sure you wouldn’t damage the model, because I didn’t fly very well. I headed for hangars and other buildings.

[Assistant] From what I understand the SMS was not very reliable in those early days though. Did that create a problem for you guys when you were doing those integrated sims?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] He was born and raised not far from where I was born and raised in Oklahoma. I came from a small town, Fairfax, and he was [from] Ponca City, not very far, both of us in Osage County. I’m not too sure I can characterize us Okies. But it seemed like we had a lot in common, maybe common sense sort of thing. Don was really sharp, but it was sometimes hard to tell. A technique that he would use to bring out more in conversations and dealings is he did not overuse the fact that he knew a lot.\n\n Something I think I learned from him too is he would work to be sure, “I’m trying to solve a problem here, but I want you to tell me how we’re going to solve this problem. Maybe up here [demonstrates] I know exactly what I want to do, but I want you to [tell me].” It would reinforce what he was thinking, but also he’s teaching too. He’s teaching the person to be confident enough to come up with the solution.

[Assistant] I also wanted to ask you about Deke [Donald K.] Slayton. Obviously you had worked on ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project], and he was head of the ALT Program. Did you work with him much at all?

[User] No. Not really. I only saw him in meetings that I would be in leading up to either an Apollo mission or ALT. I did not know him well at all. Certainly glad that he got to fly even though it was the last Apollo class mission.

[Assistant] I’m sure he was glad too.

[User] Oh yes. That was a good crew. Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford, fellow Oklahoman.

[Assistant] When we get to it, Shannon [W.] Lucid told me that you were her flight director for her first mission. It’s funny how you guys all have that connection as you pointed out.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Not really. I only saw him in meetings that I would be in leading up to either an Apollo mission or ALT. I did not know him well at all. Certainly glad that he got to fly even though it was the last Apollo class mission.

[Assistant] I’m sure he was glad too.

[User] Oh yes. That was a good crew. Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford, fellow Oklahoman.

[Assistant] When we get to it, Shannon [W.] Lucid told me that you were her flight director for her first mission. It’s funny how you guys all have that connection as you pointed out.

[User] Shannon is one of my favorites. She made an excellent CapCom [Capsule Communicator] too in Mission Control. She was one of the best. Of course she has a voice that you can hear pretty good too. She’s good.

[Assistant] She’s a very congenial person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. That was a good crew. Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford, fellow Oklahoman.

[Assistant] When we get to it, Shannon [W.] Lucid told me that you were her flight director for her first mission. It’s funny how you guys all have that connection as you pointed out.

[User] Shannon is one of my favorites. She made an excellent CapCom [Capsule Communicator] too in Mission Control. She was one of the best. Of course she has a voice that you can hear pretty good too. She’s good.

[Assistant] She’s a very congenial person.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What are your memories of the various test flights? Anything stand out for you from that time period?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Shannon is one of my favorites. She made an excellent CapCom [Capsule Communicator] too in Mission Control. She was one of the best. Of course she has a voice that you can hear pretty good too. She’s good.

[Assistant] She’s a very congenial person.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What are your memories of the various test flights? Anything stand out for you from that time period?

[User] Of the ALT period? I was thinking about that yesterday, what kind of anomalies that we had. I think we had an auxiliary power unit problem. We had three [APUs]. I think we had a problem with one of those. I remember the time when it happened. I don’t remember whether I was prime or whether Jack was prime. In simulations we have failures all the time, and we had very few during the ALT test, very few. When we had something, it was fairly significant. It wasn’t dangerous, but it was a significant problem with the APU. I remember when we took care of it and it was done, I thought to myself you know what, that didn’t feel hard at all. It just didn’t feel hard at all. Thinking about that, it probably says a lot about how you prepare for or train to do that job.

[Assistant] Gave you that extra dose of confidence that you could continue down that way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] What are your memories of the various test flights? Anything stand out for you from that time period?

[User] Of the ALT period? I was thinking about that yesterday, what kind of anomalies that we had. I think we had an auxiliary power unit problem. We had three [APUs]. I think we had a problem with one of those. I remember the time when it happened. I don’t remember whether I was prime or whether Jack was prime. In simulations we have failures all the time, and we had very few during the ALT test, very few. When we had something, it was fairly significant. It wasn’t dangerous, but it was a significant problem with the APU. I remember when we took care of it and it was done, I thought to myself you know what, that didn’t feel hard at all. It just didn’t feel hard at all. Thinking about that, it probably says a lot about how you prepare for or train to do that job.

[Assistant] Gave you that extra dose of confidence that you could continue down that way.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Flight controllers are known for playing pranks on each other. Did you guys have any pranks or any jokes during the ALT Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Of the ALT period? I was thinking about that yesterday, what kind of anomalies that we had. I think we had an auxiliary power unit problem. We had three [APUs]. I think we had a problem with one of those. I remember the time when it happened. I don’t remember whether I was prime or whether Jack was prime. In simulations we have failures all the time, and we had very few during the ALT test, very few. When we had something, it was fairly significant. It wasn’t dangerous, but it was a significant problem with the APU. I remember when we took care of it and it was done, I thought to myself you know what, that didn’t feel hard at all. It just didn’t feel hard at all. Thinking about that, it probably says a lot about how you prepare for or train to do that job.

[Assistant] Gave you that extra dose of confidence that you could continue down that way.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Flight controllers are known for playing pranks on each other. Did you guys have any pranks or any jokes during the ALT Program?

[User] Oh gosh. Now do you know something? I’m sitting here. One doesn’t pop out.

[Assistant] I always like to ask people.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Flight controllers are known for playing pranks on each other. Did you guys have any pranks or any jokes during the ALT Program?

[User] Oh gosh. Now do you know something? I’m sitting here. One doesn’t pop out.

[Assistant] I always like to ask people.

[User] Actually there’s a prank we’ll share on the Shuttle side whenever we get there. We had some characters for sure. Hershel [R.] Perkins was a guidance and navigation kind of guy. The thing about Hershel, he was a jokester but not in the control room. Outside the control room, this guy could do all kinds of weird things.\n\n As far as anything during ALT or training during ALT, none of that occurred that I can think of. Puddy wouldn’t stand for it for one thing, and people knew that we shouldn’t do that. Outside the control room we had a great time.\n\n Linda Patterson, like Ann, sat with us to watch APU fuel. Linda Patterson and the guidance, navigation, and control for ALT, she was to look at what was called differences in pressure between a couple of systems that were used for providing data to guide, fly the Enterprise. She had her own little position. It wasn’t a prime position, it was a position in support of one of the prime positions in the room, but she was in the room. Her call sign was Delta P, D-E-L-T-A for delta P, delta pressure. Delta P. That was her name. Somewhere along the line we came up with a version of “Delta Dawn” for Linda Patterson. Believe it or not, when we were all done with ALT, [and] we’re having our big blowout party, I sang it to her in public. I think I’ve got the words to it at home somewhere.

[Assistant]
If you have them we can put it in your transcript.

In the official record.

That’s right.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh gosh. Now do you know something? I’m sitting here. One doesn’t pop out.

[Assistant] I always like to ask people.

[User] Actually there’s a prank we’ll share on the Shuttle side whenever we get there. We had some characters for sure. Hershel [R.] Perkins was a guidance and navigation kind of guy. The thing about Hershel, he was a jokester but not in the control room. Outside the control room, this guy could do all kinds of weird things.\n\n As far as anything during ALT or training during ALT, none of that occurred that I can think of. Puddy wouldn’t stand for it for one thing, and people knew that we shouldn’t do that. Outside the control room we had a great time.\n\n Linda Patterson, like Ann, sat with us to watch APU fuel. Linda Patterson and the guidance, navigation, and control for ALT, she was to look at what was called differences in pressure between a couple of systems that were used for providing data to guide, fly the Enterprise. She had her own little position. It wasn’t a prime position, it was a position in support of one of the prime positions in the room, but she was in the room. Her call sign was Delta P, D-E-L-T-A for delta P, delta pressure. Delta P. That was her name. Somewhere along the line we came up with a version of “Delta Dawn” for Linda Patterson. Believe it or not, when we were all done with ALT, [and] we’re having our big blowout party, I sang it to her in public. I think I’ve got the words to it at home somewhere.

[Assistant]
If you have them we can put it in your transcript.

In the official record.

That’s right.

[User] As long as I don’t have to sing it.

[Assistant] You don’t have to sing it. We’ll look for the video now that you mentioned it. Maybe somebody videoed it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually there’s a prank we’ll share on the Shuttle side whenever we get there. We had some characters for sure. Hershel [R.] Perkins was a guidance and navigation kind of guy. The thing about Hershel, he was a jokester but not in the control room. Outside the control room, this guy could do all kinds of weird things.\n\n As far as anything during ALT or training during ALT, none of that occurred that I can think of. Puddy wouldn’t stand for it for one thing, and people knew that we shouldn’t do that. Outside the control room we had a great time.\n\n Linda Patterson, like Ann, sat with us to watch APU fuel. Linda Patterson and the guidance, navigation, and control for ALT, she was to look at what was called differences in pressure between a couple of systems that were used for providing data to guide, fly the Enterprise. She had her own little position. It wasn’t a prime position, it was a position in support of one of the prime positions in the room, but she was in the room. Her call sign was Delta P, D-E-L-T-A for delta P, delta pressure. Delta P. That was her name. Somewhere along the line we came up with a version of “Delta Dawn” for Linda Patterson. Believe it or not, when we were all done with ALT, [and] we’re having our big blowout party, I sang it to her in public. I think I’ve got the words to it at home somewhere.

[Assistant]
If you have them we can put it in your transcript.

In the official record.

That’s right.

[User] As long as I don’t have to sing it.

[Assistant] You don’t have to sing it. We’ll look for the video now that you mentioned it. Maybe somebody videoed it.

[User] “Delta P, what’s that pressure you all see?” Oh gosh.

[Assistant] You got to have something to break the tension.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As long as I don’t have to sing it.

[Assistant] You don’t have to sing it. We’ll look for the video now that you mentioned it. Maybe somebody videoed it.

[User] “Delta P, what’s that pressure you all see?” Oh gosh.

[Assistant] You got to have something to break the tension.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they reconfigure the ROCR much for ALT?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] “Delta P, what’s that pressure you all see?” Oh gosh.

[Assistant] You got to have something to break the tension.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they reconfigure the ROCR much for ALT?

[User] Oh yes. The consoles in there were somewhat different. We had a number of big plot boards that we used in the Recovery Control Room, plot boards on which a TV was on top looking down, a map of the landing area, where you kept track of ships. Back in those days, early Apollo for sure and not so much later on, we had ships all around the world, aircraft staging bases all around the world primed and ready to go.\n\n Yes, it was different. Interesting you ask the question because one of the guys that worked there sent us an e-mail here a couple weeks ago. He came back here. He lives out of town now. Brought some grandkids and they went into the ROCR as it exists today. It’s a storage room.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s what I’ve been told.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did they reconfigure the ROCR much for ALT?

[User] Oh yes. The consoles in there were somewhat different. We had a number of big plot boards that we used in the Recovery Control Room, plot boards on which a TV was on top looking down, a map of the landing area, where you kept track of ships. Back in those days, early Apollo for sure and not so much later on, we had ships all around the world, aircraft staging bases all around the world primed and ready to go.\n\n Yes, it was different. Interesting you ask the question because one of the guys that worked there sent us an e-mail here a couple weeks ago. He came back here. He lives out of town now. Brought some grandkids and they went into the ROCR as it exists today. It’s a storage room.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s what I’ve been told.

[User] What’s really weird about it is it’s got some old TV monitors, quite a few. I’m thinking, “Why haven’t we excessed all that stuff?” I can’t believe it’s still there. The room looks nothing like it used to.

[Assistant] There’s an effort to restore the MOCR. That room is not included; they’re just going to replace that window.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. The consoles in there were somewhat different. We had a number of big plot boards that we used in the Recovery Control Room, plot boards on which a TV was on top looking down, a map of the landing area, where you kept track of ships. Back in those days, early Apollo for sure and not so much later on, we had ships all around the world, aircraft staging bases all around the world primed and ready to go.\n\n Yes, it was different. Interesting you ask the question because one of the guys that worked there sent us an e-mail here a couple weeks ago. He came back here. He lives out of town now. Brought some grandkids and they went into the ROCR as it exists today. It’s a storage room.

[Assistant] Yes, that’s what I’ve been told.

[User] What’s really weird about it is it’s got some old TV monitors, quite a few. I’m thinking, “Why haven’t we excessed all that stuff?” I can’t believe it’s still there. The room looks nothing like it used to.

[Assistant] There’s an effort to restore the MOCR. That room is not included; they’re just going to replace that window.

[User] I stay in tune with that a great deal. Oh yes. Try to get the MOCR restored to Apollo 15 configuration, which is what they’ve got the most documentation on. Get it ready for the fiftieth anniversary of Apollo 11. That’ll be cool. If they can truly put that room back together to where there won’t be anybody in it but it will look like the team just walked out, that’d be cool.

[Assistant] Yes, I think it will be. They have good plans. After ALT was finished what were you working on until STS-1 flew? Were you working on flight rules? Subsystems?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] What’s really weird about it is it’s got some old TV monitors, quite a few. I’m thinking, “Why haven’t we excessed all that stuff?” I can’t believe it’s still there. The room looks nothing like it used to.

[Assistant] There’s an effort to restore the MOCR. That room is not included; they’re just going to replace that window.

[User] I stay in tune with that a great deal. Oh yes. Try to get the MOCR restored to Apollo 15 configuration, which is what they’ve got the most documentation on. Get it ready for the fiftieth anniversary of Apollo 11. That’ll be cool. If they can truly put that room back together to where there won’t be anybody in it but it will look like the team just walked out, that’d be cool.

[Assistant] Yes, I think it will be. They have good plans. After ALT was finished what were you working on until STS-1 flew? Were you working on flight rules? Subsystems?

[User] All the above, all the below. I continued to work in the Electrical, Environmental, and Mechanical Branch, and I was training to be electrical power system [officer]; EPS was the call sign. In the back room, the MPSR we called it, the Multi-Purpose Support Room—[I sat in] the back room for the front room position called EGIL [Electrical Power, Instrumentation, and Lighting Systems Engineer] for STS-1. I was in training to be the ascent EPS position working for Bill [William J.] Moon, who was the EGIL, he was going to be the prime EGIL for the launch of STS-1. I continued to learn the systems. We started doing simulations. We’ve talked about that. Did a lot of simulations in preparation to support the first launch.

[Assistant] How did you keep up with all of the systems? It’s my understanding that things evolved over time. They weren’t just static at that point. So how did you keep up with all the changes that were happening?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Made many trips out there. Didn’t spend a lot of time out there. We had a great staff of Rockwell folks here, very handy, very personable. I was very close to the fuel cells for the Shuttle Orbiter. We had the contractor expert. Engineering here at the Space Center had somebody who was assigned to the fuel cells. In operations myself and my colleagues, we were responsible for the fuel cells too. We were a very close-knit group: operator, engineer, contractor all together in sync. These documents that we built, these drawings that we did, they were all done collectively, we worked on them together so that everybody would be in sync with that.\n\n It was almost a very formal informal way to learn all this stuff. You weren’t sitting in a classroom having somebody [teach you]. You were doing it yourself.

[Assistant] It sounds like a great hands-on opportunity.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Something you have a lot of people do, I definitely have learned that way.

[User] Oh yes. In fact, I prefer that way if I can.

[Assistant] What sort of flight rules did you come up with with the fuel cells initially or even the lighting? That sounds unusual to come up with flight rules for lighting.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Something you have a lot of people do, I definitely have learned that way.

[User] Oh yes. In fact, I prefer that way if I can.

[Assistant] What sort of flight rules did you come up with with the fuel cells initially or even the lighting? That sounds unusual to come up with flight rules for lighting.

[User] Lighting wasn’t involved. Wasn’t anything on lighting that we had to do. The fuel cell, you would monitor pressures and temperatures, electrical current. You knew what the limitations were. With temperature measurements inside the fuel cell at different points you know how this thing is working, and you know how it should work. You see a temperature change in a certain area, you wonder, “Now okay, what’s that? What’s happening there.” You learn to see a piece of data. When you see a piece of data, it’s a piece of data. It’s maybe one thing. You need to know now what else can I look at to see if that’s real.\n\n Again you can see how all this gets tied together from a learning standpoint of building all these procedures and all these rules. You build your displays. You come up with your display in the control center that you design, and you have it built in a way so that you know it’s set up so that you can look at it and almost instantaneously get a feel for what you’re seeing.

[Assistant] Take us back to that first launch attempt of STS-1, which didn’t go off as expected. What are your recollections of that day and the next day?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. In fact, I prefer that way if I can.

[Assistant] What sort of flight rules did you come up with with the fuel cells initially or even the lighting? That sounds unusual to come up with flight rules for lighting.

[User] Lighting wasn’t involved. Wasn’t anything on lighting that we had to do. The fuel cell, you would monitor pressures and temperatures, electrical current. You knew what the limitations were. With temperature measurements inside the fuel cell at different points you know how this thing is working, and you know how it should work. You see a temperature change in a certain area, you wonder, “Now okay, what’s that? What’s happening there.” You learn to see a piece of data. When you see a piece of data, it’s a piece of data. It’s maybe one thing. You need to know now what else can I look at to see if that’s real.\n\n Again you can see how all this gets tied together from a learning standpoint of building all these procedures and all these rules. You build your displays. You come up with your display in the control center that you design, and you have it built in a way so that you know it’s set up so that you can look at it and almost instantaneously get a feel for what you’re seeing.

[Assistant] Take us back to that first launch attempt of STS-1, which didn’t go off as expected. What are your recollections of that day and the next day?

[User] I can’t remember. Can you remember how many attempts were tried?

[Assistant] I think it was twice.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I can’t remember. Can you remember how many attempts were tried?

[Assistant] I think it was twice.

[User] Gosh, all these run together. For me as a flight controller, this is my first time to be sitting here monitoring some systems with a spacecraft going into space. I simulated [missions], but this is for real.\n\n Bill Moon was the EGIL out front in the front room. Of course he and I had little conversations. For some reason even though the simulator never showed this—and it makes sense—somehow I thought at liftoff I’m going to see some changes. This thing has been sitting on the ground. I’m watching fuel cells, electrical power distribution. I can monitor electrical currents in all portions of the Orbiter. I can see what was going on. Strip charts are running at high speed now. There’s a whine going on. We lift off, and I’m expecting to just see some changes.\n\n Man, a minute, two minutes, three minutes into this launch, and nothing’s changing on this system. It’s just humming right along; nothing’s happening. That was a big surprise. Why I thought that would happen I have no idea, because I never saw it in simulations. Folks knew that it wasn’t going to change much. Hell, I should have known it wasn’t going to change much. But I expected man, when this thing gets up and goes, I’m going to see a lot of changes. Didn’t. That was a big surprise. Did that come close to answering you?

[Assistant] Oh yes, I have no answers here. You’re the expert, not me.

[User] Having said that, let me take you to the next flight, on STS-2.

[Assistant] Which you were in the front room according to the paperwork I have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The one fuel cell, like I said, when they make electricity, one of the by-products is water, and that gets pumped out of the fuel cell into a water tank. The water pump for that one fuel cell had failed. “Okay, what can we do now? What do we need to do to fix that in the future?” All that was done eventually.

[Assistant] Before the flight flew, there was an issue with the APUs. Was that something that you were involved with?

[User] On STS-2?

[Assistant] On STS-2.

[User] Let’s see. Interesting about the APUs. We learned a lot about the APUs as we were flying of course. I’m trying to think was there some temperature something associated with it.\n\n I don’t remember. It’s interesting how over time, boy, we learned a lot through the early Shuttle flights, really learned a lot about the hardware and the APUs in particular, [which are] fairly temperature-sensitive. Of course they’re not used once you’re in space; [they are] shut down. You got to babysit them, you got to be sure that the temperatures and the heaters associated with the APU system in the tail end of the Orbiter is working right, the temperatures are going to be okay. In the Shuttle Program I do recall the APUs were a topic quite often pre- flight. I just don’t remember all the details of how that happened.

[Assistant] It was a long time ago.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On STS-2?

[Assistant] On STS-2.

[User] Let’s see. Interesting about the APUs. We learned a lot about the APUs as we were flying of course. I’m trying to think was there some temperature something associated with it.\n\n I don’t remember. It’s interesting how over time, boy, we learned a lot through the early Shuttle flights, really learned a lot about the hardware and the APUs in particular, [which are] fairly temperature-sensitive. Of course they’re not used once you’re in space; [they are] shut down. You got to babysit them, you got to be sure that the temperatures and the heaters associated with the APU system in the tail end of the Orbiter is working right, the temperatures are going to be okay. In the Shuttle Program I do recall the APUs were a topic quite often pre- flight. I just don’t remember all the details of how that happened.

[Assistant] It was a long time ago.

[User] At that time too as an EGIL, different than ALT, I no longer was responsible for the APU mechanical system.

[Assistant] I did not know that. I assumed that was part of your system.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see. Interesting about the APUs. We learned a lot about the APUs as we were flying of course. I’m trying to think was there some temperature something associated with it.\n\n I don’t remember. It’s interesting how over time, boy, we learned a lot through the early Shuttle flights, really learned a lot about the hardware and the APUs in particular, [which are] fairly temperature-sensitive. Of course they’re not used once you’re in space; [they are] shut down. You got to babysit them, you got to be sure that the temperatures and the heaters associated with the APU system in the tail end of the Orbiter is working right, the temperatures are going to be okay. In the Shuttle Program I do recall the APUs were a topic quite often pre- flight. I just don’t remember all the details of how that happened.

[Assistant] It was a long time ago.

[User] At that time too as an EGIL, different than ALT, I no longer was responsible for the APU mechanical system.

[Assistant] I did not know that. I assumed that was part of your system.

[User] That was STS-2. It was either STS-3 or 4. EGIL went away, and EECOM showed back up. Or EECOM was there already, and we had a position for the mechanical systems: MMACS [Maintenance, Mechanical, Arm, and Crew Systems]. They had the APU system back then. EGIL eventually went away, and the electrical power system moved back into the EECOM realm. I ended up as an EECOM later, I can’t remember, STS-4, something like that I guess.

[Assistant] I was curious about that. Do you know why that happened, why that switch was made?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. There’s nothing that stands out to me now during any of those flights that I worked. [STS-3], it wasn’t a problem with any of the systems that I was responsible for, but we landed at White Sands [Northrup Strip, New Mexico]. I can still see on the TV one of the network [reporters] out there talking about this. This reporter was standing there, and he could hardly even stand up in all the wind. I can remember, “We’re going to land there?” We did. Somewhere along the line we did a night launch, didn’t we?

[Assistant] I think it was STS-8.

[User] Which was a big deal to do that.

[Assistant] Sally [K.] Ride’s flight—.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant] No, that was Guy [Guion S.] Bluford, but Sally flew on the previous flight, on STS-7. Don’t know if that was anything new. STS-5, you flew mission specialists for the first time. None of those relate to your systems, but I don’t know if those [stand out].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which was a big deal to do that.

[Assistant] Sally [K.] Ride’s flight—.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant] No, that was Guy [Guion S.] Bluford, but Sally flew on the previous flight, on STS-7. Don’t know if that was anything new. STS-5, you flew mission specialists for the first time. None of those relate to your systems, but I don’t know if those [stand out].

[User] No, nothing really stands out. I know once I got to where I was an EECOM there isn’t anything that really stands out as being something that was really significant that I dealt with.

[Assistant] Let’s turn our attention to flight director. You decided at some point you wanted to become a flight director. How did you reach that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Is that right?

[Assistant] No, that was Guy [Guion S.] Bluford, but Sally flew on the previous flight, on STS-7. Don’t know if that was anything new. STS-5, you flew mission specialists for the first time. None of those relate to your systems, but I don’t know if those [stand out].

[User] No, nothing really stands out. I know once I got to where I was an EECOM there isn’t anything that really stands out as being something that was really significant that I dealt with.

[Assistant] Let’s turn our attention to flight director. You decided at some point you wanted to become a flight director. How did you reach that decision?

[User] That’s another one of those [stories]. Bill Moon was my section head at the time. For some reason, I waited till the afternoon of the last day. Of course I had to get my supervisor to do some stuff too, the last day.\n\n Bill and I are very close. Walked into Bill’s office. I cannot tell you exactly why I stalled for so long and then what caused me to do that. I don’t really remember what caused that. I walked in and said, “Bill, I think I want to go ahead and put my application in for the flight director job.” Which was okay with him, but he looked at me and said, “Do you know what I got to do?” But he did it.\n\n I’m not kidding you. Obviously I had some help. Randy [Brock R.] Stone for example, very very dear, rest his soul, friend of mine. I owe him a lot. I even made the comment in my part of the book [Go Flight! The Unsung Heroes of Mission Control, 1965-1992], about the fact that he was in my corner when I didn’t know I needed him in my corner.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that? That was one of the questions I wanted to ask.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, nothing really stands out. I know once I got to where I was an EECOM there isn’t anything that really stands out as being something that was really significant that I dealt with.

[Assistant] Let’s turn our attention to flight director. You decided at some point you wanted to become a flight director. How did you reach that decision?

[User] That’s another one of those [stories]. Bill Moon was my section head at the time. For some reason, I waited till the afternoon of the last day. Of course I had to get my supervisor to do some stuff too, the last day.\n\n Bill and I are very close. Walked into Bill’s office. I cannot tell you exactly why I stalled for so long and then what caused me to do that. I don’t really remember what caused that. I walked in and said, “Bill, I think I want to go ahead and put my application in for the flight director job.” Which was okay with him, but he looked at me and said, “Do you know what I got to do?” But he did it.\n\n I’m not kidding you. Obviously I had some help. Randy [Brock R.] Stone for example, very very dear, rest his soul, friend of mine. I owe him a lot. I even made the comment in my part of the book [Go Flight! The Unsung Heroes of Mission Control, 1965-1992], about the fact that he was in my corner when I didn’t know I needed him in my corner.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that? That was one of the questions I wanted to ask.

[User] I came close to not making the grade as a flight director. I came real close.

[Assistant] I read that in the book about Tommy [Thomas W. Holloway and his reservations about your abilities].


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s another one of those [stories]. Bill Moon was my section head at the time. For some reason, I waited till the afternoon of the last day. Of course I had to get my supervisor to do some stuff too, the last day.\n\n Bill and I are very close. Walked into Bill’s office. I cannot tell you exactly why I stalled for so long and then what caused me to do that. I don’t really remember what caused that. I walked in and said, “Bill, I think I want to go ahead and put my application in for the flight director job.” Which was okay with him, but he looked at me and said, “Do you know what I got to do?” But he did it.\n\n I’m not kidding you. Obviously I had some help. Randy [Brock R.] Stone for example, very very dear, rest his soul, friend of mine. I owe him a lot. I even made the comment in my part of the book [Go Flight! The Unsung Heroes of Mission Control, 1965-1992], about the fact that he was in my corner when I didn’t know I needed him in my corner.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about that? That was one of the questions I wanted to ask.

[User] I came close to not making the grade as a flight director. I came real close.

[Assistant] I read that in the book about Tommy [Thomas W. Holloway and his reservations about your abilities].

[User] I came real close. I’ll put it to you this way. I was not assertive enough. I was too nice of a guy. Mr. Holloway, who was my boss, let me know that. I’ve had fine supervisors throughout my career, some better than others. I’ve had a good set of supervisors, but Mr. Holloway was the first and really only supervisor that I had that took me aside and said, “Heflin, you ain’t going make it.”

[Assistant] That must have been a hard conversation to have.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I came close to not making the grade as a flight director. I came real close.

[Assistant] I read that in the book about Tommy [Thomas W. Holloway and his reservations about your abilities].

[User] I came real close. I’ll put it to you this way. I was not assertive enough. I was too nice of a guy. Mr. Holloway, who was my boss, let me know that. I’ve had fine supervisors throughout my career, some better than others. I’ve had a good set of supervisors, but Mr. Holloway was the first and really only supervisor that I had that took me aside and said, “Heflin, you ain’t going make it.”

[Assistant] That must have been a hard conversation to have.

[User] Oh yes. I was in the Flight Director Office, and I’d already worked a few missions as a flight director that went well. It was basically, “Heflin, you have got to find a way to be large and in charge. You can’t always be a nice guy.”\n\n This was right around the Challenger [STS-51L] time too as it turns out, because he had scheduled me for a class in Louisiana, I think, a training course to go to learn how to be assertive. Challenger happened, and we had to reschedule it. It was during that period of time. That was a rough period for me, really rough. Rescheduled it for me and had to take it in New York City, and that was another story, just surviving a cab ride in New York City. I’m lucky to be alive today.

[Assistant] You mentioned Randy Stone, and how he was always in your corner, which led to our discussion about Tommy.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I came real close. I’ll put it to you this way. I was not assertive enough. I was too nice of a guy. Mr. Holloway, who was my boss, let me know that. I’ve had fine supervisors throughout my career, some better than others. I’ve had a good set of supervisors, but Mr. Holloway was the first and really only supervisor that I had that took me aside and said, “Heflin, you ain’t going make it.”

[Assistant] That must have been a hard conversation to have.

[User] Oh yes. I was in the Flight Director Office, and I’d already worked a few missions as a flight director that went well. It was basically, “Heflin, you have got to find a way to be large and in charge. You can’t always be a nice guy.”\n\n This was right around the Challenger [STS-51L] time too as it turns out, because he had scheduled me for a class in Louisiana, I think, a training course to go to learn how to be assertive. Challenger happened, and we had to reschedule it. It was during that period of time. That was a rough period for me, really rough. Rescheduled it for me and had to take it in New York City, and that was another story, just surviving a cab ride in New York City. I’m lucky to be alive today.

[Assistant] You mentioned Randy Stone, and how he was always in your corner, which led to our discussion about Tommy.

[User] Yes, he stood up for me a lot during this period. I know he talked to Holloway. I didn’t hear the conversation, but I’m sure that he convinced Holloway, “Hey, let’s don’t give up on him yet.” Yes, interesting. It’s hard to believe that that’s a true story, but it is. I look back during that time, and I could see where there were times when I needed to be a little stronger in certain situations than I was.

[Assistant] Can you give an example or two?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, he stood up for me a lot during this period. I know he talked to Holloway. I didn’t hear the conversation, but I’m sure that he convinced Holloway, “Hey, let’s don’t give up on him yet.” Yes, interesting. It’s hard to believe that that’s a true story, but it is. I look back during that time, and I could see where there were times when I needed to be a little stronger in certain situations than I was.

[Assistant] Can you give an example or two?

[User] I think one of my strengths is I know how to not get in the way of good people that are working for me. I really do. I think that has been a strength. People would ask me, “How in the world do you ever stand the pressure of being a flight director in Mission Control?”\n\n I say, “Look around me. See what I’ve got in here. These people will tackle me before I do something stupid.” I believe that.\n\n Also I’m a good listener, but I think I probably listened too much. I did not enter the conversation as much as I probably needed to do during these times. I didn’t ask the questions I probably should [have been] asking. Eventually these things came out, but I could have helped by being just a little more aggressive, “Tell me why you’re thinking that. I’m not sure I understand that. Tell me that again.” I may be sitting there thinking, “I like what I’m hearing from this person,” but make him prove it. Come on, let’s be sure that this is really what we want to do. I just needed to be more aggressive in those sorts of situations.

[Assistant] Part of that tough aspect of MOD [Mission Operations Directorate] at that point? Tough and competent?

[User] Tough and competent. Tough and competent. Sure, yes. Maybe I’m stalling here.

[Assistant] Oh, you’re not stalling. I’ve got a few more questions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it was Houston Press a couple weeks later had a column in there about—the title had something to do with turkeys and Mission Control. No names appeared. In fact, it didn’t even say that the flight director got hooked on this thing, but it said a prank had been made in Mission Control.\n\n After talking to Brewster, I never heard from anybody. Nobody bugged me about it. So Brewster probably did a little stuff in the meantime to calm things down too.

[Assistant] I did want to go back and talk about just a couple of missions prior to Challenger. One being your first mission, which was [STS]-51D, because that was a pretty significant mission. You were on planning shift. That was the flyswatter mission. I wondered what your role was in coming up with that concept and those ideas.

[User] On the planning team, probably [the] thing I did best was I didn’t get in anybody’s way. My very first shift as a flight director [was] on the planning team, that’s where you start. By the time I was on shift the people in the daytime had already figured out how they were going to fix it. Actually it was a good period of time for me because my role was to be sure that the package we were sending up to the crew of the next day’s activities—that was our job—was exactly what they needed.\n\n My team’s job was to take these ideas and the raw procedures and get them dressed up enough to send up to the crew. [This was] back in the old days where we had a teleprinter on board and had stuff printed out. As far as me contributing to the concept, I’m pretty sure I didn’t have anything to do with that at all. I simply was one who helped make sure my team had the package put together. I’d forgotten the old flyswatter thing.

[Assistant] Were you in the room when they tried to reactivate the satellite?

[User] I was not. I wasn’t on shift then. I don’t remember exactly how I had heard about that. It was a good attempt.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s an interesting idea.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] On the planning team, probably [the] thing I did best was I didn’t get in anybody’s way. My very first shift as a flight director [was] on the planning team, that’s where you start. By the time I was on shift the people in the daytime had already figured out how they were going to fix it. Actually it was a good period of time for me because my role was to be sure that the package we were sending up to the crew of the next day’s activities—that was our job—was exactly what they needed.\n\n My team’s job was to take these ideas and the raw procedures and get them dressed up enough to send up to the crew. [This was] back in the old days where we had a teleprinter on board and had stuff printed out. As far as me contributing to the concept, I’m pretty sure I didn’t have anything to do with that at all. I simply was one who helped make sure my team had the package put together. I’d forgotten the old flyswatter thing.

[Assistant] Were you in the room when they tried to reactivate the satellite?

[User] I was not. I wasn’t on shift then. I don’t remember exactly how I had heard about that. It was a good attempt.

[Assistant] Yes, it’s an interesting idea.

[User] Remember when we grabbed the satellite by hand, the three folks? I worked that flight as well. I really feel that that was one of my better times. [I] was again on the planning team. I can’t remember which mission that was.\n\n The planning team puts these packages together and [has] got to do them right. A lot of effort would go into making sure they’re right. We had to rerendezvous too, which we hadn’t planned on doing. How did this go? Is that right? We had to rerendezvous. Help me out here. Had we deployed and it not worked?

[Assistant] I think that was the case.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] True story, yes. During the flight Nelson was also a camera hog. He liked the camera. Here’s Heflin, who allowed somebody to do a joke on him, and I’m about ready to do the same thing on this senator. Back in the days we had middeck, flight deck, and any time you turned on the camera you told the crew on board, “Hey, is it okay if we come on board on the middeck?” Just to let them know [you are watching]. They say yes or no. Usually it was yes.\n\n The PAO [Public Affairs Officer] is changing around, looking at different stuff. I’m sitting there watching this thing. I noticed that every time we switched to one deck, just a few seconds later Nelson was there. Watched this for a little bit. Sure enough. Couple swaps of camera, [there was] Nelson. INCO [Instrumentation and Communications Officer], a position in the control center who maintains and controls those cameras [and] commands them, [could] do split screen. I looked at INCO and I said, “Hey, INCO, can you give us a split screen, please?” Nelson didn’t know what to do. I’m serious.

[Assistant] That’s funny.

[User] Yes. Actually he sort of knew what to do. He was here, then he was here, then he was here, then he was here. True story.

[Assistant] Did it change things having a politician on board compared to other astronauts that you had worked with?

[User] No, Nelson was a good listener. He knew there were things that he’s not going to mess with. Any time I saw him at any gathering, it was rare that he would say anything. He’s working with the crew, but in our technical meetings or flight techniques, [he was] just a good listener. I never noticed anything except the things I’ve told you about. I never noticed anything to cause us to have any difficulties in integrating him into the process.

[Assistant] You mentioned you were training to be a lead flight director. Would you tell us what a lead flight director is and what some of the roles and responsibilities are?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And at that time the recruiter told us that would be okay.

[Assistant] Oh, wow.

[User] That you could have a, you could take a child with us. We didn't want to do that. So that's why that went on the back burner. And then my wife later went, got transferred, and I retired before her. She was still working. And I said, oh man, I can't wait till you retire and we can go in the Peace Corps like we always wanted to do.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And she said, why don't you go now? Because who knows if I'll be able to go when I retire. She had some health problems that, as it turned out, probably would have prevented her from going in. So we reflected on her experience of working abroad and how we managed with it. And I applied and was accepted and was assigned to Macedonia.

[Assistant] What did your kids think?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That you could have a, you could take a child with us. We didn't want to do that. So that's why that went on the back burner. And then my wife later went, got transferred, and I retired before her. She was still working. And I said, oh man, I can't wait till you retire and we can go in the Peace Corps like we always wanted to do.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And she said, why don't you go now? Because who knows if I'll be able to go when I retire. She had some health problems that, as it turned out, probably would have prevented her from going in. So we reflected on her experience of working abroad and how we managed with it. And I applied and was accepted and was assigned to Macedonia.

[Assistant] What did your kids think?

[User] Good question. You know, I can, I can almost hear them. First question was why? Why do you want to do that? So I told them all the reasons and that was fine with them because, again, they had experienced that their mother had been in Europe for a year while they were in graduate school. So that was fine. It was also intriguing to them that that they could visit. And they did.

[Assistant] Sounds like it surprised them a little bit that you would do that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And she said, why don't you go now? Because who knows if I'll be able to go when I retire. She had some health problems that, as it turned out, probably would have prevented her from going in. So we reflected on her experience of working abroad and how we managed with it. And I applied and was accepted and was assigned to Macedonia.

[Assistant] What did your kids think?

[User] Good question. You know, I can, I can almost hear them. First question was why? Why do you want to do that? So I told them all the reasons and that was fine with them because, again, they had experienced that their mother had been in Europe for a year while they were in graduate school. So that was fine. It was also intriguing to them that that they could visit. And they did.

[Assistant] Sounds like it surprised them a little bit that you would do that.

[User] Yeah, it didn't surprise them about volunteering because I was always volunteering. I was on many community organizations and so on. But, but going overseas for, what, 27 months it was, a commitment that surprised them. But then as we, because it took a while, it took me a year and a half from application until I went to pre-service training. And in that time, providing them with a lot of information about the Peace Corps and talking about it a lot. They were very supportive. They were very supportive. And then while I was there, they did come and visit. And that was nice for both us and myself and them.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Now, how did you end up in Macedonia, getting assigned to Macedonia?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it didn't surprise them about volunteering because I was always volunteering. I was on many community organizations and so on. But, but going overseas for, what, 27 months it was, a commitment that surprised them. But then as we, because it took a while, it took me a year and a half from application until I went to pre-service training. And in that time, providing them with a lot of information about the Peace Corps and talking about it a lot. They were very supportive. They were very supportive. And then while I was there, they did come and visit. And that was nice for both us and myself and them.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Now, how did you end up in Macedonia, getting assigned to Macedonia?

[User] Well, at that time you had to just say, I will go and serve wherever I'm assigned. And I said that. And a recruiter, I had a phone interview with a recruiter as well as a video interview on the internet. I guess that's the placement officer, not the recruiter, called and had questions for me and where did I want to go? And I said I'm sticking with what I said, except I have concern about going someplace cold, really cold. And I had in my mind Mongolia.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] I wasn't too sure I wanted to be that cold. And he, of course, grilled me about, I thought you said you would go wherever assigned by, da da da. And I said, okay, I understand, and I will. And then he assigned me to Macedonia. And I immediately started reading about Macedonia.

[Assistant] I was going to say, what was your reaction when you got the news where you were going?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't know much about Macedonia. I knew where it was.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So I started reading and I read history and read Yugoslavian history and war history, and I read some books by Macedonians and I read some book, I read a book by a Roma woman who wrote a wonderful book. She was, she was a brilliant person who wrote a very good book about the Roma culture, but also about the Balkans and the conflict of cultures. And that was helpful.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] So, and I, and I also got, I purchased online some self-study books for Macedonian language and started studying that. Made a lot of errors that had to be corrected when I went to Peace Corps, especially pronouncing the alphabet.

[Assistant] Uh huh, uh huh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I did that. And I couldn't find anybody local who had any experience, recent experience in the Peace Corps, and especially nothing related to Macedonia. But I did go online and I found, uh, a volunteer who was serving at the time, but going toward COS, his close of service. That was Michael, who we mentioned.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And I found a currently serving volunteer and we communicated a lot. And he scared me a lot with things like wait till you, if you've been studying the language, wait till you see script. That was a fellow named Link.

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] And he had a good sense of humor, though. And he, he helped me with some information. And then I also wrote to a woman who I believe was serving in Macedonia at the time. She was in the same cohort with Link. She was the retired dean of students in New Hampshire.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I know her.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I found a currently serving volunteer and we communicated a lot. And he scared me a lot with things like wait till you, if you've been studying the language, wait till you see script. That was a fellow named Link.

[Assistant] Oh, yes.

[User] And he had a good sense of humor, though. And he, he helped me with some information. And then I also wrote to a woman who I believe was serving in Macedonia at the time. She was in the same cohort with Link. She was the retired dean of students in New Hampshire.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. I know her.

[User] Dr. Wiggum. She was, she was helpful with correspondence at the time. Very, very supportive, very encouraging. And I followed through with everything and eventually got assigned to a cohort to start in September of 2011, which I mentioned.

[Assistant] What was your training like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And after we ate in, in the Old City Tavern, which was where the founding fathers used to hang out, they were not interested in any of that. I tried to point out we're standing in a room where they had those discussions about independence and how to, how to deal with England and all that. They didn't want any of that.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So we ate and then they immediately went out and found a bar to have drinks at. And I went back to the hotel.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which was sort of, uh.

[Assistant] So you didn't feel very connected with the other volunteers at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we ate and then they immediately went out and found a bar to have drinks at. And I went back to the hotel.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Which was sort of, uh.

[Assistant] So you didn't feel very connected with the other volunteers at all?

[User] That was foretelling of my whole experience, yeah.

[Assistant] How old were you when you went into Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was foretelling of my whole experience, yeah.

[Assistant] How old were you when you went into Peace Corps?

[User] 67. I turned 68 during pre-service training.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User]
So from there, of course, we went and had our orientation in, um, Kumanovo and a week in the hotel there. And much of the same type of thing going on. The training provided by the Peace Corps I thought was pretty good at that point. The initial orientation and the, of course, the first. That orientation week was the policies, procedures, and all that sort of stuff. And it was pretty good. And I thought the country director did a pretty good job of trying to get us to seriously focus on things, starting with how it took too long for him to get everyone's phone numbers and so on. He did it in a nice way. He was very supportive and encouraging.

Um, when we went to our training sites, um, I was with two of the middle aged volunteers and two or three of the younger volunteers, and we all got along very well.

[Assistant] Where did you train? What was the training situation like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 67. I turned 68 during pre-service training.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User]
So from there, of course, we went and had our orientation in, um, Kumanovo and a week in the hotel there. And much of the same type of thing going on. The training provided by the Peace Corps I thought was pretty good at that point. The initial orientation and the, of course, the first. That orientation week was the policies, procedures, and all that sort of stuff. And it was pretty good. And I thought the country director did a pretty good job of trying to get us to seriously focus on things, starting with how it took too long for him to get everyone's phone numbers and so on. He did it in a nice way. He was very supportive and encouraging.

Um, when we went to our training sites, um, I was with two of the middle aged volunteers and two or three of the younger volunteers, and we all got along very well.

[Assistant] Where did you train? What was the training situation like?

[User] That was primarily for cultural, um, inculcation, I guess you'd call it, inculcation. Um, yeah, it was, it was half day of cultural learning and a half day of language studies.

[Assistant] But did they, did everybody go to the same place for training? How was your?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was primarily for cultural, um, inculcation, I guess you'd call it, inculcation. Um, yeah, it was, it was half day of cultural learning and a half day of language studies.

[Assistant] But did they, did everybody go to the same place for training? How was your?

[User]
At that time, the whole cohort was divided up into I think there were three training sites. And I was in Kratovo. Uh, the, the bulk of the younger ones were in another community I forget the name of. And then it was, I think, one other community they were in. We were not, we didn't interact with each other too much. I think there were two times when everyone came together for large meetings with the country director or with the training host country nationals in the Peace Corps. In my village where I was with the other volunteers, we all got along very well and it did well.

My experience as an older volunteer was different because my ability to learn was different than their ability to learn. I'm a visual learner and they weren't. They could deal with it auditorily and I just had. I even met separately with my language instructor, who was a Macedonian, and she was fine. She was wonderful. But I met separately with her several times to encourage her to use the, the easels or the blackboard or whatever. If I could see things more, see the language, see the words, see the letters.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Um, she tried to adapt, but I think she was locked into a protocol of her own that the Peace Corps pretty much.

[Assistant] So the language was not easy for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
At that time, the whole cohort was divided up into I think there were three training sites. And I was in Kratovo. Uh, the, the bulk of the younger ones were in another community I forget the name of. And then it was, I think, one other community they were in. We were not, we didn't interact with each other too much. I think there were two times when everyone came together for large meetings with the country director or with the training host country nationals in the Peace Corps. In my village where I was with the other volunteers, we all got along very well and it did well.

My experience as an older volunteer was different because my ability to learn was different than their ability to learn. I'm a visual learner and they weren't. They could deal with it auditorily and I just had. I even met separately with my language instructor, who was a Macedonian, and she was fine. She was wonderful. But I met separately with her several times to encourage her to use the, the easels or the blackboard or whatever. If I could see things more, see the language, see the words, see the letters.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Um, she tried to adapt, but I think she was locked into a protocol of her own that the Peace Corps pretty much.

[Assistant] So the language was not easy for you.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Despite your pre-study and everything.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They told us all the holidays, but I had no idea when they fell in the year. Or maybe I just missed it. You know, it could have been. They could have said it and I missed it. Um. That I recommended to them when they asked for recommendations. Um. And they did help somewhat. But my language tutor that I had during my initial part of my work assignment was wonderful. He, he. He included me into their family.

[Assistant] Oh, nice.

[User] And I went to birthday parties and I went to religious events and so on, like so many other volunteers did.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But he coached me a lot. Like when holiday time, what to say, how to respond to things, and all of that. And that endeared me to some of the local people very nicely, so that when they saw me on the street then they were typically Macedonian, you know, very accepting and warm and so on.

[Assistant] Nice. So what was your living situation in training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I went to birthday parties and I went to religious events and so on, like so many other volunteers did.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But he coached me a lot. Like when holiday time, what to say, how to respond to things, and all of that. And that endeared me to some of the local people very nicely, so that when they saw me on the street then they were typically Macedonian, you know, very accepting and warm and so on.

[Assistant] Nice. So what was your living situation in training?

[User]
In training? It was a challenge. Um. I have a picture. The house I lived in, the family, they were a very nice family. They had an adolescent and a young adult daughter. The young adult daughter had recently finished university and was living in the capital city. I was in Kratovo, a small town up in the mountains, and their adolescent daughter was there. They gave me her bedroom, or the two girls had lived in the bedroom together, and that was awkward for me because I felt not right taking their daughter's bedroom. But they assured me that because the only source of heat in the house was the wood burning stove in the kitchen, they assured me that the daughter would prefer to sleep on the couch that was in the kitchen.

And, and subsequently, because of that, my bedroom was quite cold. I slept with a sweat suit on and a jacket and heavy socks and a blanket and a quilt and I was still cold. The Peace Corps gave me an electric heater, which I tried to use very little because that would affect the electric bill of the family. So I only used it when I was, uh, after I would bathe and getting dressed. You know, at special times, I didn't have it on all the time. So it was, it was cold in the winter. And winter came early up in the mountains and, uh. I guess, I guess I was, it was compensated for by the how nice the family was.

[Assistant] Nice. How did you feel at the end of training? You're about to leave and you're about to go out to your site. What, what were your feelings at that point?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I was really eager to find out where I was going to be working. And the Peace Corps arranged for pre-placement visits to go. But at the same time, leaving the family was, uh, a bit of a challenge because I'd come to depend on them and they were very supportive and helpful. So there I was again, as when I left the United States and went to the country, I was having the same sort of feelings. Okay, wow. Now I have to go do something totally strange again.

[Assistant] Yeah, now you're on your own again.

[User] But I tried to do, I tried to take it in the sense of adventure, with independence. Instead of taking a long bus ride to get, as I was told about, I found out from locals how to take the train. And not from Kratovo, but from the, from the capital. I took the bus to the capital and I found a train. And got pretty frightened on the train.

[Assistant] How come?

[User] It was a very nice train, probably World War II era Soviet built train. And it was okay riding on it, but I had no clue where to get off. And I was constantly, every, every stop. And it stopped at every little town. But every stop I would really try to see a sign of where we were. And of course, it didn't matter if I saw a sign with a town name, I could pronounce it, but I had no clue what that meant, and I didn't know whether that was ten stops or 15 stops from where I was going. So I.

[Assistant] And nobody else was going to the same assignment as you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a very nice train, probably World War II era Soviet built train. And it was okay riding on it, but I had no clue where to get off. And I was constantly, every, every stop. And it stopped at every little town. But every stop I would really try to see a sign of where we were. And of course, it didn't matter if I saw a sign with a town name, I could pronounce it, but I had no clue what that meant, and I didn't know whether that was ten stops or 15 stops from where I was going. So I.

[Assistant] And nobody else was going to the same assignment as you?

[User] No. I was the only one assigned there. And in the pre-service training, they tried to tell us a little bit about our, our assignment. So that brought up a whole nother scare. When everyone was given their assignments, we were amassed at the [inaudible], the city hall, and going in one at a time into a, into a room to meet with one of the Peace Corps staff, Macedonian staff in the Peace Corps. And given the assignment packets, which would be all the information about our assignment and location and counterparts and all of that. When I went in, I was given an excuse and an apology that they didn't have an assignment for me.

[Assistant] Oh, no.

[User] I had that wide eyed look too, of what does this mean? And they said, well, they had planned for me to be in eastern Macedonia in a bicultural training with Albanian language and Macedonian language. And I had told them that I was having enough trouble with Macedonian. I doubted that I could really get through even with struggle that, and I didn't want to do it. So I would have been assigned, I found out later, to the Red Cross over in eastern Macedonia.

[Assistant] Oh, over in Ohrid.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that worked out good. And he was very familiar with Negotino because he was a woodworker and he sold his, some of his things in Negotino in the, in the bazaar. So then they took me down there and took me to my, my apartment, where it was. Only to find out that my apartment would not be my apartment because the volunteer previous to me did not want to leave right away. Tracy.

[Assistant] Hmm.

[User] She just needed to stay another week or month. She just wasn't ready to go. Didn't have a real extension of a six month or a year. But so my landlady and her husband arranged for their parents. I think my landlady's parents took me into their house and gave me a bedroom. And it was very cold. And now it's December.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it's really cold. They were very nice. Um, they, they provided me with my meals and, uh, had me sit in the warm room where their wood burning stove was at other times when I wasn't in the bedroom. And I got to watch a lot of Turkish soap operas and they, they loved them. And I had a real difficult time sitting there. But they were so nice. They were a lovely, lovely old family.

[Assistant] Now, you were a community development volunteer. What did you do as a community development volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had degrees in defectology.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] They were, they were experts in defectives.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So we had to talk about caseworkers and social workers.

[Assistant] Different ways of thinking about stuff.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I developed some in-service trainings with them to understand causes of behavior and ways to ways to redirect behavior and to stop trying to eliminate behavior, but replace behaviors because all behaviors served a purpose and so on. And that was all new to them, even though they had degrees in defectology.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And they, they, they slowly, over the two years I was there, it came about.

[Assistant] Yeah. Great.

[User]
It came about. My primary goal, my primary project that I worked on to help with, to help maintain or achieve the goals of the organization, was to introduce sporting activities and get these people active. They, they spent, they spent their evenings and weekends in their group homes sitting and listening to music or watching TV. Very little interaction. Some of them would help the staff with meal preparation and so on, and they did have their assigned duties for cleaning the house and doing, learning to do their laundry and so on. But otherwise, in their, in their free time, they, they were sedentary.

They became sedentary in the, in the offices of the organization, which was called a daily center. And they always corrected me when I called it the day center, which I was used to. They were very sedentary. They would just do coloring, little arts and crafts projects. Um, so I decided that they needed to have more activity.

[Assistant] What was your biggest challenge in effecting this change?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right from the beginning, the name calling stopped.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] So I was proud of that one.

[Assistant] Oh, I bet you were.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was proud of that one.

[Assistant] Oh, I bet you were.

[User] And, and, that, that young man from Macedonia who helped with the sports, he continued the sporting things. He worked elsewhere, but he continued coming and helping with the sports after I closed my service.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] And we've, we've stayed in touch. I've stayed in touch a little with my counterpart. And through Facebook, the internet. We get a lot of exchanges with other staff there. But that young man is now employed by, uh, the NGO.

[Assistant] The NGO? Good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, and, that, that young man from Macedonia who helped with the sports, he continued the sporting things. He worked elsewhere, but he continued coming and helping with the sports after I closed my service.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] And we've, we've stayed in touch. I've stayed in touch a little with my counterpart. And through Facebook, the internet. We get a lot of exchanges with other staff there. But that young man is now employed by, uh, the NGO.

[Assistant] The NGO? Good.

[User] He now works in one of the group homes and does, still does stuff there. So that was, I was happy with that, with that part of it.

[Assistant] What was your daily life like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, quite a bit.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
Not. I started out traveling within Macedonia just to go visit some other volunteers. But it wasn't that enjoyable because they wanted, the younger volunteers just wanted to drink and sit at a, at a bar or something. So I traveled on my own a bit to see like the fortress and the Roman ruins. And so who helped me an awful lot was my language tutor. The Peace Corps arranged for me to have a tutor for a bit. They had a limit on it. Um, we became such good friends that he continued to be friends with me, even though I couldn't pay him to be my tutor anymore. And we would often meet after my work.

Um, he wasn't. He was working part time at the time. He had a master's degree, but he couldn't work as an English teacher because he couldn't, he wouldn't. He refused to join a political party, so they essentially fired him when it came election time. Um, but so I paid him gas money when he took me places and he took me to a lot of nice places.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] Um, and we talked and, and I learned more cultural than language wise from him because his English was perfect. He spoke with a decided British accent, although it turned out he could talk with any accent. He could imitate different American accents. He was pretty sharp that way. His father ran a very large wine making business on his side. He, as so many people there did, they had his own still. He had his own vineyards. He had a couple of vineyards, but he made so much wine. He sold some years more than 1,000 liters. And it was all black market. And he was the retired chief of police.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and we talked and, and I learned more cultural than language wise from him because his English was perfect. He spoke with a decided British accent, although it turned out he could talk with any accent. He could imitate different American accents. He was pretty sharp that way. His father ran a very large wine making business on his side. He, as so many people there did, they had his own still. He had his own vineyards. He had a couple of vineyards, but he made so much wine. He sold some years more than 1,000 liters. And it was all black market. And he was the retired chief of police.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[User] But what a wonderful family.

[Assistant] Yeah, nice.

[User] Very nice family. They invited me over for many meals. Very, very, uh, cohesive family and warm family. My tutor now lives in Oman in the Middle East and teaches English at a private school there. Um. And in our community, we're still in communication. We stayed in touch. He has two daughters who are in elementary school, maybe getting ready for middle school. And we talk about when they get to high school, maybe, maybe they could come over as an exchange student.

[Assistant] Ah, that'd be great.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But what a wonderful family.

[Assistant] Yeah, nice.

[User] Very nice family. They invited me over for many meals. Very, very, uh, cohesive family and warm family. My tutor now lives in Oman in the Middle East and teaches English at a private school there. Um. And in our community, we're still in communication. We stayed in touch. He has two daughters who are in elementary school, maybe getting ready for middle school. And we talk about when they get to high school, maybe, maybe they could come over as an exchange student.

[Assistant] Ah, that'd be great.

[User] Yeah. So I made a lot of good things. About traveling. Beyond that, traveling in Macedonia, I traveled a lot in Europe. And, uh, it was expensive airline ways, airline wise for my wife to come and visit me in Macedonia. So we met in different places. You know, we met in Dubrovnik, we met in Tel Aviv. We met in Germany. At one time, she had a business flight to Germany because years ago she had been sent there to work for a year. They sent her back for some more. She worked for an international pharmaceutical company, pharmaceutical research, not manufacturing. She was in safety. So they sent her back over. And then I went up and met her there. And we, we traveled a bit on my vacation time. Um, so.

[Assistant] So that's one way you kept in touch.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very nice family. They invited me over for many meals. Very, very, uh, cohesive family and warm family. My tutor now lives in Oman in the Middle East and teaches English at a private school there. Um. And in our community, we're still in communication. We stayed in touch. He has two daughters who are in elementary school, maybe getting ready for middle school. And we talk about when they get to high school, maybe, maybe they could come over as an exchange student.

[Assistant] Ah, that'd be great.

[User] Yeah. So I made a lot of good things. About traveling. Beyond that, traveling in Macedonia, I traveled a lot in Europe. And, uh, it was expensive airline ways, airline wise for my wife to come and visit me in Macedonia. So we met in different places. You know, we met in Dubrovnik, we met in Tel Aviv. We met in Germany. At one time, she had a business flight to Germany because years ago she had been sent there to work for a year. They sent her back for some more. She worked for an international pharmaceutical company, pharmaceutical research, not manufacturing. She was in safety. So they sent her back over. And then I went up and met her there. And we, we traveled a bit on my vacation time. Um, so.

[Assistant] So that's one way you kept in touch.

[User] Some of the places were revisited from when she had been in Germany. And I had, um, in my younger years spent six months on a farm in the south of France. Um, well, my younger years when I was in graduate school. And from there I had traveled a lot. So we went. We tried to find new places that neither of us had traveled to, like Normandy. We went to to see that. And Israel, that was, that was a good. And Turkey. Although Turkey we couldn't get to. I wanted to go to Cappadocia, but it was when there was some sort of uprising going on, some things where the State Department said, the Peace Corps said we couldn't go.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's too bad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So I made a lot of good things. About traveling. Beyond that, traveling in Macedonia, I traveled a lot in Europe. And, uh, it was expensive airline ways, airline wise for my wife to come and visit me in Macedonia. So we met in different places. You know, we met in Dubrovnik, we met in Tel Aviv. We met in Germany. At one time, she had a business flight to Germany because years ago she had been sent there to work for a year. They sent her back for some more. She worked for an international pharmaceutical company, pharmaceutical research, not manufacturing. She was in safety. So they sent her back over. And then I went up and met her there. And we, we traveled a bit on my vacation time. Um, so.

[Assistant] So that's one way you kept in touch.

[User] Some of the places were revisited from when she had been in Germany. And I had, um, in my younger years spent six months on a farm in the south of France. Um, well, my younger years when I was in graduate school. And from there I had traveled a lot. So we went. We tried to find new places that neither of us had traveled to, like Normandy. We went to to see that. And Israel, that was, that was a good. And Turkey. Although Turkey we couldn't get to. I wanted to go to Cappadocia, but it was when there was some sort of uprising going on, some things where the State Department said, the Peace Corps said we couldn't go.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's too bad.

[User] In fact, at one point we were going to meet in Istanbul and the country director said I couldn't go because of something that had just happened. It was some, um, gang fighting in Istanbul and couldn't go. So.

[Assistant] What a shame.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In fact, at one point we were going to meet in Istanbul and the country director said I couldn't go because of something that had just happened. It was some, um, gang fighting in Istanbul and couldn't go. So.

[Assistant] What a shame.

[User] Well, I went.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] But I didn't go in defiance. I worked out a deal with him. I said, I'm just going to go to the airport and I'm just going to go see the Blue Mosque. And I'm not going over to that part of Istanbul where the troubles are. And he agreed.

[Assistant] Oh, nice. Good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But I didn't go in defiance. I worked out a deal with him. I said, I'm just going to go to the airport and I'm just going to go see the Blue Mosque. And I'm not going over to that part of Istanbul where the troubles are. And he agreed.

[Assistant] Oh, nice. Good.

[User] So we did that. The same thing with when we went to Israel. The Peace Corps had a pause on any anyone, could not go to Jordan because of the fighting that was going on, could not go to Israel because of problems with the fighting at the West Bank. So I assured him that I was not going to go anywhere near there. And he agreed that I could go if I checked in every day with where I was. Some days I forgot. I was, it was okay. We didn't go anywhere near that and I was okay and it was okay with him. So we did travel around. I got to go to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea and Masada.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] That sort of stuff.

[Assistant] But what was communication like for you in Macedonia? How did you talk to your kids? How did you communicate?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we did that. The same thing with when we went to Israel. The Peace Corps had a pause on any anyone, could not go to Jordan because of the fighting that was going on, could not go to Israel because of problems with the fighting at the West Bank. So I assured him that I was not going to go anywhere near there. And he agreed that I could go if I checked in every day with where I was. Some days I forgot. I was, it was okay. We didn't go anywhere near that and I was okay and it was okay with him. So we did travel around. I got to go to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea and Masada.

[Assistant] Nice.

[User] That sort of stuff.

[Assistant] But what was communication like for you in Macedonia? How did you talk to your kids? How did you communicate?

[User] Local?

[Assistant] Well, both locally and back home.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] By the end of the day, my tutor was so happy. He said as they were leaving they were saying to each other, that old American could really work.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was hard work.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Oh, it was hard work. But I was happy I did it for that reason. I was happy also I did it because while we were working, we had some interchanges and so on. And people would offer me some food or offer me water and they were considerate and I think more so because of my age than just their general, general nicety that they have. They're very nice people.

[Assistant] How did you feel when it approached time to leave?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was hard work.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Oh, it was hard work. But I was happy I did it for that reason. I was happy also I did it because while we were working, we had some interchanges and so on. And people would offer me some food or offer me water and they were considerate and I think more so because of my age than just their general, general nicety that they have. They're very nice people.

[Assistant] How did you feel when it approached time to leave?

[User] Yes, I was eager to get home. But sad.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was hard work. But I was happy I did it for that reason. I was happy also I did it because while we were working, we had some interchanges and so on. And people would offer me some food or offer me water and they were considerate and I think more so because of my age than just their general, general nicety that they have. They're very nice people.

[Assistant] How did you feel when it approached time to leave?

[User] Yes, I was eager to get home. But sad.

[Assistant] Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And after being gone for 27 months, was it strange coming home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You try to tell them. The better friends and the better family members would listen, but a lot of them was just sort of changed the subject.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yeah. Okay. That's nice. What about, you know, the football game this weekend, that sort of stuff. But, and, uh, I was, I was aware of the differences culturally in terms of shopping. You know, I did, I grew up in an agricultural area, so I was familiar with farmers markets and so on. And that was not a whole lot different over there. But that's all it was. When I, when I got home, I remembered that supermarkets were big, but it hit me and it still hits me.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] And the one thing that has lasted with me is the driving. Not being able to drive in the Peace Corps was one thing, but when I did get to ride with other drivers, they drove sensibly. The ones I rode with, they drove sensibly within the speed limit, courteous to other people, letting other people pull out of driveways, or stopping if there were animals in the road or whatever. And over here, everyone's aggressive. And when I, when I came home, that really hit me. That really hit me. And I was disoriented even in my own community. I remembered where things were, but I forgot how to get there.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.