[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, we did just probably, it might have been overnight, but a few hours staging in Miami. We all met in Miami. They gave us a couple hour debrief. I think we spent the night there. And then the next day we got on a plane to Guatemala. Most of us, one person actually decided not to get on the plane, which was interesting. You know, made it to staging, but I guess decided it was not for them. And then we were driven immediately to our training facility once we got in country, kind of given about a one hour tour of the training facility, told we would be taking classes in health, culture, language, and our technical specialty.

And then we were brought to a local house and dropped off and said, okay, here's the family you're going to be living with for the next, well, that family, two months, and we'll pick you up in the morning to bring you to the training center.

[Assistant] And you went alone to your family?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or were you placed in pairs?

[User] No, I went alone to my family.

[Assistant] What town was the training in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Or were you placed in pairs?

[User] No, I went alone to my family.

[Assistant] What town was the training in?

[User] The training was in a town called Santa Lucia Milpas Alta [Altas]. It was, it was maybe half an hour outside of the capital.

[Assistant] Okay. So you got placed in with your family and spent how long there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I went alone to my family.

[Assistant] What town was the training in?

[User] The training was in a town called Santa Lucia Milpas Alta [Altas]. It was, it was maybe half an hour outside of the capital.

[Assistant] Okay. So you got placed in with your family and spent how long there?

[User] We spent two months at the training facility and then we spent a month kind of on site training. So it was just our technical, just the environmental people. We went to a site, very small town, and do not ask me the name. I do not remember. There was maybe 400 people and did technical training for a month.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And after that got finished then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The training was in a town called Santa Lucia Milpas Alta [Altas]. It was, it was maybe half an hour outside of the capital.

[Assistant] Okay. So you got placed in with your family and spent how long there?

[User] We spent two months at the training facility and then we spent a month kind of on site training. So it was just our technical, just the environmental people. We went to a site, very small town, and do not ask me the name. I do not remember. There was maybe 400 people and did technical training for a month.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And after that got finished then?

[User] After that we came back to the training center for maybe a few days or a week and did our language assessment to make sure that our language proficient enough to go to our site, which honestly, I, I have to admit I purposefully tried to fail because even though I had had. I'd been taking Spanish since middle school, in our education system I never actually had to carry on a conversation. I learned to read and write. I could memorize a speech and give it. But holy cow, when confronted with somebody who wants to talk to you, I'm like, can you write that down? I could not. Language is not my gift. So I thought if I could stay another month, one on one, you know, and have some more help with my Spanish, that would be amazing. Unfortunately, they passed me anyways and said nope, you got to go to your site.

[Assistant] Now living with a family must have helped with the language.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We spent two months at the training facility and then we spent a month kind of on site training. So it was just our technical, just the environmental people. We went to a site, very small town, and do not ask me the name. I do not remember. There was maybe 400 people and did technical training for a month.

[Assistant] Uh huh. And after that got finished then?

[User] After that we came back to the training center for maybe a few days or a week and did our language assessment to make sure that our language proficient enough to go to our site, which honestly, I, I have to admit I purposefully tried to fail because even though I had had. I'd been taking Spanish since middle school, in our education system I never actually had to carry on a conversation. I learned to read and write. I could memorize a speech and give it. But holy cow, when confronted with somebody who wants to talk to you, I'm like, can you write that down? I could not. Language is not my gift. So I thought if I could stay another month, one on one, you know, and have some more help with my Spanish, that would be amazing. Unfortunately, they passed me anyways and said nope, you got to go to your site.

[Assistant] Now living with a family must have helped with the language.

[User] It did. It did. It was scary at first being dropped off the first day and I'm like, oh, wow, said a few things and they just start rattling off in Spanish. I'm like, deer in headlights, like please slow down. But they were amazing. They'd hosted volunteers before, were so patient with me, super wonderful people. So yes, it definitely helped. And then there was some days we had 6 hours of Spanish classes so.

[Assistant] Wow. Yeah. So you got through that and I'm sure your Spanish improved as you went on. But you were stationed then where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] After that we came back to the training center for maybe a few days or a week and did our language assessment to make sure that our language proficient enough to go to our site, which honestly, I, I have to admit I purposefully tried to fail because even though I had had. I'd been taking Spanish since middle school, in our education system I never actually had to carry on a conversation. I learned to read and write. I could memorize a speech and give it. But holy cow, when confronted with somebody who wants to talk to you, I'm like, can you write that down? I could not. Language is not my gift. So I thought if I could stay another month, one on one, you know, and have some more help with my Spanish, that would be amazing. Unfortunately, they passed me anyways and said nope, you got to go to your site.

[Assistant] Now living with a family must have helped with the language.

[User] It did. It did. It was scary at first being dropped off the first day and I'm like, oh, wow, said a few things and they just start rattling off in Spanish. I'm like, deer in headlights, like please slow down. But they were amazing. They'd hosted volunteers before, were so patient with me, super wonderful people. So yes, it definitely helped. And then there was some days we had 6 hours of Spanish classes so.

[Assistant] Wow. Yeah. So you got through that and I'm sure your Spanish improved as you went on. But you were stationed then where?

[User] I was stationed in San Juan La Laguna in Sololá, in the eastern or, excuse me, the western side of the country. Very glad to get there. Training was tough for me and it was a rough three months. It felt like being back in, I don't know, elementary school, boarding school. I was like, I can do this if I can just get through training so.

[Assistant] Were there are a lot of people in your training group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did. It did. It was scary at first being dropped off the first day and I'm like, oh, wow, said a few things and they just start rattling off in Spanish. I'm like, deer in headlights, like please slow down. But they were amazing. They'd hosted volunteers before, were so patient with me, super wonderful people. So yes, it definitely helped. And then there was some days we had 6 hours of Spanish classes so.

[Assistant] Wow. Yeah. So you got through that and I'm sure your Spanish improved as you went on. But you were stationed then where?

[User] I was stationed in San Juan La Laguna in Sololá, in the eastern or, excuse me, the western side of the country. Very glad to get there. Training was tough for me and it was a rough three months. It felt like being back in, I don't know, elementary school, boarding school. I was like, I can do this if I can just get through training so.

[Assistant] Were there are a lot of people in your training group?

[User] Yes. Um. I'm trying to remember how many because we had 12, I think just in environment, and there was about four. So there was probably 50 or 60 people in our training group. Guatemala, at least at the time, was the largest Peace Corps country, and they had people coming in, I think, new trainees every quarter, so it was very big.

[Assistant] All right. So now you've got to your town. And what was that like? What were your accommodations like? Were you placed with the family or given?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No. So how it worked and I don't know if this was universal at the time, but you were assigned a counterpart who was supposed to be somebody living and working in your town, who you were going to work with. And they would introduce you around, help you get settled, help you find a place to live. Because we were assigned to work with a particular organization who had requested a Peace Corps volunteer. The organization I was assigned to was a big organization headquartered in a city probably about a half an hour, and I say city because it was bigger than my town, about maybe a half an hour, probably about a half hour boat ride away from where I was. And my counterpart did not live in my town. He actually only came to my town about once a month.

So he met me at the training center because they actually come and get you from the training center. You know, they get you on the right bus to your town. He actually brought me to the city across the lake where they were stationed, put me in a boat, and said, your town is over there. So I just was in a boat going off to my town and luckily.

[Assistant] He didn't escort you there?

[User] No. No. So luckily there was already a Peace Corps volunteer in my town who was going to be leaving in three months. So she was there. And I actually had a site mate from my training group who was going for additional work. So the two of us kind of went together to our town because her.

[Assistant] That's helpful.

[User] Yes. Her counterpart was similar, didn't live in the town. And just so they just put us on a boat and said, have fun. So the other Peace Corps volunteer met us and kind of introduced us around. We got to stay with her for about a week while we looked for housing.

[Assistant] You had to look yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. No. So luckily there was already a Peace Corps volunteer in my town who was going to be leaving in three months. So she was there. And I actually had a site mate from my training group who was going for additional work. So the two of us kind of went together to our town because her.

[Assistant] That's helpful.

[User] Yes. Her counterpart was similar, didn't live in the town. And just so they just put us on a boat and said, have fun. So the other Peace Corps volunteer met us and kind of introduced us around. We got to stay with her for about a week while we looked for housing.

[Assistant] You had to look yourself?

[User] Yes. Had to look myself. Because my counterpart didn't really know anyone in town. They didn't set anything up prior to our arrival so.

[Assistant] I think that's pretty unusual that that housing wasn't established ahead of time for you. Anyway, how did that go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Her counterpart was similar, didn't live in the town. And just so they just put us on a boat and said, have fun. So the other Peace Corps volunteer met us and kind of introduced us around. We got to stay with her for about a week while we looked for housing.

[Assistant] You had to look yourself?

[User] Yes. Had to look myself. Because my counterpart didn't really know anyone in town. They didn't set anything up prior to our arrival so.

[Assistant] I think that's pretty unusual that that housing wasn't established ahead of time for you. Anyway, how did that go?

[User] Thank goodness that other volunteer was there because she was great and knew everybody in town. And luckily, surprisingly, in our town there were several vacant homes and both my site mate and I were able to each individually get our own homes that were within our budget. The one I was able to get had been vacant since the war. Guatemala at the time I went there, was just recovering from a horrible civil war where there was mass genocide. Entire towns wiped off the map. It was really bad. My town was fairly sheltered from it, with the exception of one woman was murdered in my town and that was her home. Then was vacant. And they were like, yes, rent it to the gringa. So it ended up.

[Assistant] You think there were superstitions in the village that prevented anybody else from living there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Had to look myself. Because my counterpart didn't really know anyone in town. They didn't set anything up prior to our arrival so.

[Assistant] I think that's pretty unusual that that housing wasn't established ahead of time for you. Anyway, how did that go?

[User] Thank goodness that other volunteer was there because she was great and knew everybody in town. And luckily, surprisingly, in our town there were several vacant homes and both my site mate and I were able to each individually get our own homes that were within our budget. The one I was able to get had been vacant since the war. Guatemala at the time I went there, was just recovering from a horrible civil war where there was mass genocide. Entire towns wiped off the map. It was really bad. My town was fairly sheltered from it, with the exception of one woman was murdered in my town and that was her home. Then was vacant. And they were like, yes, rent it to the gringa. So it ended up.

[Assistant] You think there were superstitions in the village that prevented anybody else from living there?

[User] 100%. Yes.

[Assistant] But nothing happened to you while you were in the house?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Thank goodness that other volunteer was there because she was great and knew everybody in town. And luckily, surprisingly, in our town there were several vacant homes and both my site mate and I were able to each individually get our own homes that were within our budget. The one I was able to get had been vacant since the war. Guatemala at the time I went there, was just recovering from a horrible civil war where there was mass genocide. Entire towns wiped off the map. It was really bad. My town was fairly sheltered from it, with the exception of one woman was murdered in my town and that was her home. Then was vacant. And they were like, yes, rent it to the gringa. So it ended up.

[Assistant] You think there were superstitions in the village that prevented anybody else from living there?

[User] 100%. Yes.

[Assistant] But nothing happened to you while you were in the house?

[User] Well, other than being peed on by possums in the middle of the night, which people said like, they were like, well, that's because the house is cursed. So I ended up, it got so bad I ended up actually moving because I tried to trap them.

[Assistant] Living up in the roof?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, other than being peed on by possums in the middle of the night, which people said like, they were like, well, that's because the house is cursed. So I ended up, it got so bad I ended up actually moving because I tried to trap them.

[Assistant] Living up in the roof?

[User] Yes. Yeah. And well, in the.

[Assistant] Ceiling.

[User] In the, yeah, and my bedroom was the only one that had a ceiling. None of the others had ceilings and they had made nests up there. And I had.

[Assistant] Their own apartment.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. And well, in the.

[Assistant] Ceiling.

[User] In the, yeah, and my bedroom was the only one that had a ceiling. None of the others had ceilings and they had made nests up there. And I had.

[Assistant] Their own apartment.

[User] Yeah. I had guys go up there and clean it out and we tried to put chicken wire all around so they couldn't get in, but somehow they kept getting in and somebody gave me a trap. So I would put a trap up there with chicken in it and I'd catch one and then the other, it's like they would catch on, and they wouldn't touch it for two weeks. And then I'd catch another one. But this was like two months and I caught maybe three and it was still happening. So I said, I can't. I can't do this.

[Assistant] So how long did it take you to move to another?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the, yeah, and my bedroom was the only one that had a ceiling. None of the others had ceilings and they had made nests up there. And I had.

[Assistant] Their own apartment.

[User] Yeah. I had guys go up there and clean it out and we tried to put chicken wire all around so they couldn't get in, but somehow they kept getting in and somebody gave me a trap. So I would put a trap up there with chicken in it and I'd catch one and then the other, it's like they would catch on, and they wouldn't touch it for two weeks. And then I'd catch another one. But this was like two months and I caught maybe three and it was still happening. So I said, I can't. I can't do this.

[Assistant] So how long did it take you to move to another?

[User] I was lucky. There was another house that I'd had my eye on that, it was really beautiful, vacant, had a huge yard and you could kind of see the lake over the wall. There was like this big concrete wall around it, but they had wanted too much money. But by that point, I had befriended the family that owned it and explained my situation. So they came down in price and let me have the house. Because I was like, it's just sitting here. Nothing, you're not going to do anything else with it.

[Assistant] All right. Now you mention the lake. Tell me the name of the lake.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was lucky. There was another house that I'd had my eye on that, it was really beautiful, vacant, had a huge yard and you could kind of see the lake over the wall. There was like this big concrete wall around it, but they had wanted too much money. But by that point, I had befriended the family that owned it and explained my situation. So they came down in price and let me have the house. Because I was like, it's just sitting here. Nothing, you're not going to do anything else with it.

[Assistant] All right. Now you mention the lake. Tell me the name of the lake.

[User] Oh, Lago Atitlan.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Very famous. If you ever are a tourist in Guatemala, you probably go there. But none came to my town. They came to the town next door. But my town was just a sleepy little town no tourists ever came to, which was kind of nice actually.

[Assistant] Yeah. You also mentioned a company that the Peace Corps was working in collaboration with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, Lago Atitlan.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Very famous. If you ever are a tourist in Guatemala, you probably go there. But none came to my town. They came to the town next door. But my town was just a sleepy little town no tourists ever came to, which was kind of nice actually.

[Assistant] Yeah. You also mentioned a company that the Peace Corps was working in collaboration with.

[User] Yes. The NGO, the non-governmental organization I was assigned to. Um. I am blanking on their name because I actually didn't ever really work with them. I ended up more working with the Ministry of Education because I was assigned to do environmental education in the elementary schools. And for me, you know, one of the principles in the Peace Corps that resonated strongly with me was sustainability. Like, I want this to keep going after I leave, and I'm not the best teacher of kids. And I would try to go in and develop programs and have the teachers help me with the kids. But every time I would come to the school, the teacher is like, great, I have a break. I'll see you in half an hour. I would be left alone with the kids.

[Assistant] They weren't benefiting from that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very famous. If you ever are a tourist in Guatemala, you probably go there. But none came to my town. They came to the town next door. But my town was just a sleepy little town no tourists ever came to, which was kind of nice actually.

[Assistant] Yeah. You also mentioned a company that the Peace Corps was working in collaboration with.

[User] Yes. The NGO, the non-governmental organization I was assigned to. Um. I am blanking on their name because I actually didn't ever really work with them. I ended up more working with the Ministry of Education because I was assigned to do environmental education in the elementary schools. And for me, you know, one of the principles in the Peace Corps that resonated strongly with me was sustainability. Like, I want this to keep going after I leave, and I'm not the best teacher of kids. And I would try to go in and develop programs and have the teachers help me with the kids. But every time I would come to the school, the teacher is like, great, I have a break. I'll see you in half an hour. I would be left alone with the kids.

[Assistant] They weren't benefiting from that.

[User] And so I was trying to work with the Ministry of Education to help them figure out ways that we could incorporate environmental themes into what they're currently teaching. Like, it didn't have to be a whole new curriculum. We can put it in math and science and history and, um. They did not want to do that at all and ended up not wanting me to teach or help out in the schools at all. It was sad and I felt very defeated and lost.

[Assistant] That would be discouraging, yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. The NGO, the non-governmental organization I was assigned to. Um. I am blanking on their name because I actually didn't ever really work with them. I ended up more working with the Ministry of Education because I was assigned to do environmental education in the elementary schools. And for me, you know, one of the principles in the Peace Corps that resonated strongly with me was sustainability. Like, I want this to keep going after I leave, and I'm not the best teacher of kids. And I would try to go in and develop programs and have the teachers help me with the kids. But every time I would come to the school, the teacher is like, great, I have a break. I'll see you in half an hour. I would be left alone with the kids.

[Assistant] They weren't benefiting from that.

[User] And so I was trying to work with the Ministry of Education to help them figure out ways that we could incorporate environmental themes into what they're currently teaching. Like, it didn't have to be a whole new curriculum. We can put it in math and science and history and, um. They did not want to do that at all and ended up not wanting me to teach or help out in the schools at all. It was sad and I felt very defeated and lost.

[Assistant] That would be discouraging, yeah.

[User] And like I was a horrible volunteer and nobody wanted to work with me. So that was, that was rough. I felt like I had failed big time.

[Assistant] Why do you think they didn't want to? Just they were set in their ways of presenting material?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so I was trying to work with the Ministry of Education to help them figure out ways that we could incorporate environmental themes into what they're currently teaching. Like, it didn't have to be a whole new curriculum. We can put it in math and science and history and, um. They did not want to do that at all and ended up not wanting me to teach or help out in the schools at all. It was sad and I felt very defeated and lost.

[Assistant] That would be discouraging, yeah.

[User] And like I was a horrible volunteer and nobody wanted to work with me. So that was, that was rough. I felt like I had failed big time.

[Assistant] Why do you think they didn't want to? Just they were set in their ways of presenting material?

[User] Yeah. And I think it's a situation where most of us don't like change. It's, even if the path isn't great or we're not happy with it or it's sometimes even painful, it's easier just to keep going, as you know. And you don't have to think too much about it. You don't have to do anything. You don't ruffle any feathers. And it just, status quo is a lot easier than trying to implement changes. So and I didn't have the support of the teachers because they were like, oh, a gringa is coming to teach. I get a free break and I get paid to do nothing. And the Ministry of Education, I guess, didn't, just had other things to worry about and just didn't care that much so.

[Assistant] And that continued for the duration of your service?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. And I loved it because it was his idea, not the gringa's idea. And they'll placate me while I'm there, but when I leave, it'll disappear so.

[Assistant] Who was that ranger?

[User] His. Oh my gosh. What was his last name? It was Raul. I want to say Iq, but I.

[Assistant] That's okay, we have Raul.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Just to give a name to this person.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] His. Oh my gosh. What was his last name? It was Raul. I want to say Iq, but I.

[Assistant] That's okay, we have Raul.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Just to give a name to this person.

[User] Yes, Raul.

[Assistant] And so you worked with him. And how did that go?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I was like, okay, well, I should try this first to see is it going to take 5 hours? You know, how long is the process? And so I started with one woman and having her show me and then working with her on how to show other people and coming up with translations because she, you know, her Spanish wasn't great because everybody in my community was Mayan and most everybody also spoke Spanish. But since it was their second language, it was not great Spanish. So we came up with like printed materials so you can point and, you know, with whatever language to be able to understand what's going on.

[Assistant] I wondered that because you said there was such significant tourism. What language? What countries people were coming from that were coming into the area or were they really ready to speak Spanish if they came there?

[User] Most, no, they didn't. You know, there was a lot of people from the States who normally only just speak English. There are a lot of Europeans. So we had a lot of people that spoke French and German, some Spanish, but most tourists didn't come in fluent in Spanish so.

[Assistant] Because you worked around that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So that was successful?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Most, no, they didn't. You know, there was a lot of people from the States who normally only just speak English. There are a lot of Europeans. So we had a lot of people that spoke French and German, some Spanish, but most tourists didn't come in fluent in Spanish so.

[Assistant] Because you worked around that.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So that was successful?

[User] Yeah. I actually recruited some people to come in and be kind of test cases and it worked really well and they loved it and were excited they got to walk home with something that they made. But then they also wanted to buy like the real thing.

[Assistant] Oh, that's good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] So that was successful?

[User] Yeah. I actually recruited some people to come in and be kind of test cases and it worked really well and they loved it and were excited they got to walk home with something that they made. But then they also wanted to buy like the real thing.

[Assistant] Oh, that's good.

[User] Which was good. But this was just in, probably, I don't even think my last year of service, maybe my last eight months. So I only kind of got so far. And then when I was leaving, I was trying to petition to the Peace Corps to have a replacement volunteer for me, but to work with this organization. But it was hard because they weren't official. They hadn't requested a Peace Corps volunteer. So I was like, please send somebody that might be interested, at least in a side project of doing this. And I met my replacement.

[Assistant] Oh, then it was successful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I actually recruited some people to come in and be kind of test cases and it worked really well and they loved it and were excited they got to walk home with something that they made. But then they also wanted to buy like the real thing.

[Assistant] Oh, that's good.

[User] Which was good. But this was just in, probably, I don't even think my last year of service, maybe my last eight months. So I only kind of got so far. And then when I was leaving, I was trying to petition to the Peace Corps to have a replacement volunteer for me, but to work with this organization. But it was hard because they weren't official. They hadn't requested a Peace Corps volunteer. So I was like, please send somebody that might be interested, at least in a side project of doing this. And I met my replacement.

[Assistant] Oh, then it was successful.

[User] And she seemed great. I didn't keep up with her, so I don't know how much she was involved. But I, you know, I still keep up with people in my town and now they actually have a website. There's a community center that showcases local works. There's hotels, there's restaurants. They have paved roads, internet. Like it's crazy how much it's exploded.

[Assistant] It hasn't been that long either.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Which was good. But this was just in, probably, I don't even think my last year of service, maybe my last eight months. So I only kind of got so far. And then when I was leaving, I was trying to petition to the Peace Corps to have a replacement volunteer for me, but to work with this organization. But it was hard because they weren't official. They hadn't requested a Peace Corps volunteer. So I was like, please send somebody that might be interested, at least in a side project of doing this. And I met my replacement.

[Assistant] Oh, then it was successful.

[User] And she seemed great. I didn't keep up with her, so I don't know how much she was involved. But I, you know, I still keep up with people in my town and now they actually have a website. There's a community center that showcases local works. There's hotels, there's restaurants. They have paved roads, internet. Like it's crazy how much it's exploded.

[Assistant] It hasn't been that long either.

[User] Well, 20 years now, almost so. But yeah. So I was excited that, you know, it was something that they just continued to run, because it was their idea and that's what makes it sustainable. I was just kind of the catalyst helping behind the scenes, but it was all their vision. So I was like, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, very fruitful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, 20 years now, almost so. But yeah. So I was excited that, you know, it was something that they just continued to run, because it was their idea and that's what makes it sustainable. I was just kind of the catalyst helping behind the scenes, but it was all their vision. So I was like, yeah.

[Assistant] Well, very fruitful.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Second year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It takes a while to get going very often anyway. So that's not unusual.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Second year.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It takes a while to get going very often anyway. So that's not unusual.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And your description of how you went into the community is very similar to what I have heard the very initial volunteers that went into the Peace Corps. There were no formalized programs. They were just told, go there and see what you can do. So you followed that format and it worked out well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] It takes a while to get going very often anyway. So that's not unusual.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And your description of how you went into the community is very similar to what I have heard the very initial volunteers that went into the Peace Corps. There were no formalized programs. They were just told, go there and see what you can do. So you followed that format and it worked out well.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And you were there two years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah. And your description of how you went into the community is very similar to what I have heard the very initial volunteers that went into the Peace Corps. There were no formalized programs. They were just told, go there and see what you can do. So you followed that format and it worked out well.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And you were there two years.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what was a, when you were working with this board, what was a typical day like or did it vary so much?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And you were there two years.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what was a, when you were working with this board, what was a typical day like or did it vary so much?

[User] It varied so much. And honestly, the majority of my time was mostly downtime. So I would get up and read and then get out of the house and just go chat with people and just sit with people and talk. And do, you know, I would say maybe only 20 percent of my time was actual work honestly, even with this organization. I mean, there would be spurts where every day we're doing something, but then there would be other times where, you know, because all of the people involved in this, they all had full time jobs and ways that they needed to support their families and things too. So this was just kind of on the side for them as well. So the majority of my time was just spent, you know, reading or wandering the town and just chatting with people or sitting by the lake or.

[Assistant] Did you have much contact with other volunteers? You said the one volunteer that helped you get settled was there for three months. There was another volunteer there at the same time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And what was a, when you were working with this board, what was a typical day like or did it vary so much?

[User] It varied so much. And honestly, the majority of my time was mostly downtime. So I would get up and read and then get out of the house and just go chat with people and just sit with people and talk. And do, you know, I would say maybe only 20 percent of my time was actual work honestly, even with this organization. I mean, there would be spurts where every day we're doing something, but then there would be other times where, you know, because all of the people involved in this, they all had full time jobs and ways that they needed to support their families and things too. So this was just kind of on the side for them as well. So the majority of my time was just spent, you know, reading or wandering the town and just chatting with people or sitting by the lake or.

[Assistant] Did you have much contact with other volunteers? You said the one volunteer that helped you get settled was there for three months. There was another volunteer there at the same time?

[User] Yes, there was another volunteer I trained with, but she was in a different program so.

[Assistant] Same village though?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, there was another volunteer I trained with, but she was in a different program so.

[Assistant] Same village though?

[User] Yes. Yeah. She didn't live too far from me. But, um, but it was interesting. I mean, we were friends and amicable, but we didn't. We didn't hang out a lot because I think both of us were like, well, we don't want to just glom to the other gringa and just kind of, because you can kind of get trapped in that bubble.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, you know, especially because she ended up in a similar situation where she ended up with no work either. So we could have just had our little Peace Corps thing and just like tuned out. But we both wanted to, I think, integrate a little bit more in the community. But she also ended up dating somebody in another town, so she was not actually in my town a lot.

[Assistant] So did you travel at all?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yeah. She didn't live too far from me. But, um, but it was interesting. I mean, we were friends and amicable, but we didn't. We didn't hang out a lot because I think both of us were like, well, we don't want to just glom to the other gringa and just kind of, because you can kind of get trapped in that bubble.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And, you know, especially because she ended up in a similar situation where she ended up with no work either. So we could have just had our little Peace Corps thing and just like tuned out. But we both wanted to, I think, integrate a little bit more in the community. But she also ended up dating somebody in another town, so she was not actually in my town a lot.

[Assistant] So did you travel at all?

[User] I did. One of my. [tape break]

[Assistant] We were talking about traveling in the country.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That is in, I guess sort of the southern part of the country on the border with Nicaragua.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Did you go straight to Honduras from Guatemala?

[User] No, I wanted to. But they have this, or at least at the time, they had this weird policy where when you are going to do a service in another country, you have to take at least a month off. Most people go home. They said, you don't have to go home, but you can't, you can't stay here. Just go somewhere. And for me, you know, a lot of volunteers took their vacations to go home and visit friends and family. For me, I never did that, because I was like my friends and family are, they're the same people and the same places. I'll see them when I get home. Like, I have a month to just roam. And so I just took the opportunity to wander around and have fun and see things. And actually.

[Assistant] Within Guatemala?

[User] No. Well, yes and no. So I took some time in Guatemala, a little bit of time in Honduras. A friend came to visit me and we kind of did some time in Honduras. And then I actually went to Scotland for two weeks randomly. Because my mother and my sister were taking a vacation there and it just happened to coincide. And I'm like, I'm there! Yeah, so.

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting itinerary.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I wanted to. But they have this, or at least at the time, they had this weird policy where when you are going to do a service in another country, you have to take at least a month off. Most people go home. They said, you don't have to go home, but you can't, you can't stay here. Just go somewhere. And for me, you know, a lot of volunteers took their vacations to go home and visit friends and family. For me, I never did that, because I was like my friends and family are, they're the same people and the same places. I'll see them when I get home. Like, I have a month to just roam. And so I just took the opportunity to wander around and have fun and see things. And actually.

[Assistant] Within Guatemala?

[User] No. Well, yes and no. So I took some time in Guatemala, a little bit of time in Honduras. A friend came to visit me and we kind of did some time in Honduras. And then I actually went to Scotland for two weeks randomly. Because my mother and my sister were taking a vacation there and it just happened to coincide. And I'm like, I'm there! Yeah, so.

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting itinerary.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All right. Then you come back to Central America, you get into Honduras and you get involved in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. Well, yes and no. So I took some time in Guatemala, a little bit of time in Honduras. A friend came to visit me and we kind of did some time in Honduras. And then I actually went to Scotland for two weeks randomly. Because my mother and my sister were taking a vacation there and it just happened to coincide. And I'm like, I'm there! Yeah, so.

[Assistant] Okay. Interesting itinerary.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All right. Then you come back to Central America, you get into Honduras and you get involved in?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Some more training?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] All right. Then you come back to Central America, you get into Honduras and you get involved in?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Some more training?

[User]
So, yeah, they didn't put me through the whole training program. I got to catch the tail end of a current training program. So I was in training maybe two weeks, just really catching up on the technical aspect. Because I thought, oh, water systems, I got this. Uh uh. You do not design water systems in rural Central America like you do in the States. It is, you can do it on an Excel spreadsheet. It's so simple and easy and interesting. So, no pumps involved. It's all just gravity fed. So kind of learning how to simplify water systems. And then one of the things I stressed to my program manager was that, you know, I obviously had already been a volunteer, experienced. I wasn't going to go through the same kind of transitions and learning curve and things a new volunteer would just, you know, getting settled in emotionally and figuring things out.

I was like, I want to get on the ground running, put me with an organization that has had volunteers and just ready, ready to run. Sadly, that did not happen. I got assigned to work with the water department of my city. So I hike up the hill where the office was on the first day and they basically are like, okay, that's your chair. You go sit over there. And they just did their thing and went off and kind of left me. And I was trying to listen in on conversations to catch on to what's, what was happening. And it was a few hours and paid no attention to me at all. So I said, okay, well, you know, what can I help you with?

[Assistant] Or they're sending a message.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Some more training?

[User]
So, yeah, they didn't put me through the whole training program. I got to catch the tail end of a current training program. So I was in training maybe two weeks, just really catching up on the technical aspect. Because I thought, oh, water systems, I got this. Uh uh. You do not design water systems in rural Central America like you do in the States. It is, you can do it on an Excel spreadsheet. It's so simple and easy and interesting. So, no pumps involved. It's all just gravity fed. So kind of learning how to simplify water systems. And then one of the things I stressed to my program manager was that, you know, I obviously had already been a volunteer, experienced. I wasn't going to go through the same kind of transitions and learning curve and things a new volunteer would just, you know, getting settled in emotionally and figuring things out.

I was like, I want to get on the ground running, put me with an organization that has had volunteers and just ready, ready to run. Sadly, that did not happen. I got assigned to work with the water department of my city. So I hike up the hill where the office was on the first day and they basically are like, okay, that's your chair. You go sit over there. And they just did their thing and went off and kind of left me. And I was trying to listen in on conversations to catch on to what's, what was happening. And it was a few hours and paid no attention to me at all. So I said, okay, well, you know, what can I help you with?

[Assistant] Or they're sending a message.

[User] Yeah, exactly. I was like, what can I help with? You know, I'm here, I'm ready. And the guy basically was like, well, you can come back tomorrow, but bring a book because there's nothing that we have for you to do. And I feel like the situation would have been different if I was a male volunteer but.

[Assistant] Were there males in the program too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, exactly. I was like, what can I help with? You know, I'm here, I'm ready. And the guy basically was like, well, you can come back tomorrow, but bring a book because there's nothing that we have for you to do. And I feel like the situation would have been different if I was a male volunteer but.

[Assistant] Were there males in the program too?

[User] In the water and san program?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yes, there were.

[Assistant] You communicate with them at all, I mean?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the water and san program?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Yes, there were.

[Assistant] You communicate with them at all, I mean?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Were they in similar situations? Do you know how that kind of worked out?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] If the town was not willing to do.

[Assistant] That's impressive.

[User] Yeah, yeah. They had to work for it because they had to feel ownership, like this is our system. Because if we just came in like, oh, here's a water system, first time something breaks, they're gonna be like, oh well, we'll just wait for more gringos to come and fix it for us.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
That whole. So I was excited. And they wanted help training the local people on how to properly survey so that they knew that the water would get from the source to the town, you know? And, you know, if they could give everybody a tap stand in their house or if they were community tap stands, you know, the whole thing. So I came up with a program for them. I designed an Excel program where we could put in all the survey points and it would tell you exactly. It would map out exactly how to build it. And, you know, if we had enough pressure. And then I taught all the local people and we'd go up in the mountains and we'd be out there surveying. And I would teach them how to do that and plot the points. And it was awesome and it was such a success.

They got all the Central American Action Against Hunger groups to come to Honduras, and I held a big training for all the heads of the Action Against Hunger in Central America.

[Assistant] Wow. That organization, where did it start?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. They had to work for it because they had to feel ownership, like this is our system. Because if we just came in like, oh, here's a water system, first time something breaks, they're gonna be like, oh well, we'll just wait for more gringos to come and fix it for us.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
That whole. So I was excited. And they wanted help training the local people on how to properly survey so that they knew that the water would get from the source to the town, you know? And, you know, if they could give everybody a tap stand in their house or if they were community tap stands, you know, the whole thing. So I came up with a program for them. I designed an Excel program where we could put in all the survey points and it would tell you exactly. It would map out exactly how to build it. And, you know, if we had enough pressure. And then I taught all the local people and we'd go up in the mountains and we'd be out there surveying. And I would teach them how to do that and plot the points. And it was awesome and it was such a success.

They got all the Central American Action Against Hunger groups to come to Honduras, and I held a big training for all the heads of the Action Against Hunger in Central America.

[Assistant] Wow. That organization, where did it start?

[User] Oh, my goodness. Action Against Hunger is all over the world. Where it started, I have no idea. But they have, they have like a headquarters here in the States. They have headquarters in Europe, but then they help.

[Assistant] So it originated outside the country and got established within?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. So that was just like a local chapter or whatever. And they also do worked with food security, helping with agriculture and stuff. I wasn't as involved in that part of it.

[Assistant] Okay. Wow.

[User] Yeah, it was great.

[Assistant] That's impressive.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. So you did that for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, it was great.

[Assistant] That's impressive.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. So you did that for?

[User] A year. I did that for a year. And so I was basically, well, either training or mostly up hiking in the mountains and working with local communities out and about with them every day. Getting chased by killer bees once, that was fun. But, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] What was the source of water? There were just streams up in the mountains?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was fun.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. So you did that for?

[User] A year. I did that for a year. And so I was basically, well, either training or mostly up hiking in the mountains and working with local communities out and about with them every day. Getting chased by killer bees once, that was fun. But, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] What was the source of water? There were just streams up in the mountains?

[User] Yeah, so we would have to find water sources. But most people in the communities would know because it's where they would go to get water. And sometimes, like one community we worked with in the dry season, they had to hike five miles to get water. It was horrible. But we either tried to find, you know, we tried to find the highest point so it'd be the cleanest water away from everybody. And either, you know, like dam up like a piece of river so that we could divert the water, or find like a little spring we could tap that had enough pressure that would come out. So yeah.

[Assistant] I was. You're talking about those up high enough so it wasn't impacted by forces that might pollute the water?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A year. I did that for a year. And so I was basically, well, either training or mostly up hiking in the mountains and working with local communities out and about with them every day. Getting chased by killer bees once, that was fun. But, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun.

[Assistant] What was the source of water? There were just streams up in the mountains?

[User] Yeah, so we would have to find water sources. But most people in the communities would know because it's where they would go to get water. And sometimes, like one community we worked with in the dry season, they had to hike five miles to get water. It was horrible. But we either tried to find, you know, we tried to find the highest point so it'd be the cleanest water away from everybody. And either, you know, like dam up like a piece of river so that we could divert the water, or find like a little spring we could tap that had enough pressure that would come out. So yeah.

[Assistant] I was. You're talking about those up high enough so it wasn't impacted by forces that might pollute the water?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was there any kind of water testing done?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Was there any kind of water testing done?

[User] No.

[Assistant] No.

[User] But, you know, because most of the pollutants there were biological, so people, cows, pigs. So we would bring the water down to a high spot right above the town. And just build a big tank where they would basically just add chlorine to clean the water. And then it would come down into the community. So yeah. Very, very simple systems, but definitely with a way to disinfect it.

[Assistant] Who was in charge of adding the chlorine and making sure that that was done properly?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] No.

[User] But, you know, because most of the pollutants there were biological, so people, cows, pigs. So we would bring the water down to a high spot right above the town. And just build a big tank where they would basically just add chlorine to clean the water. And then it would come down into the community. So yeah. Very, very simple systems, but definitely with a way to disinfect it.

[Assistant] Who was in charge of adding the chlorine and making sure that that was done properly?

[User] The water board. They had to form a water board and designate like, okay, this is your job is to go out every X number of days and add chlorine. Because we would tell them, we would calculate, you know, like how often it would be added and how much. So they knew exactly what to do.

[Assistant] Chlorine wasn't hard to get?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But, you know, because most of the pollutants there were biological, so people, cows, pigs. So we would bring the water down to a high spot right above the town. And just build a big tank where they would basically just add chlorine to clean the water. And then it would come down into the community. So yeah. Very, very simple systems, but definitely with a way to disinfect it.

[Assistant] Who was in charge of adding the chlorine and making sure that that was done properly?

[User] The water board. They had to form a water board and designate like, okay, this is your job is to go out every X number of days and add chlorine. Because we would tell them, we would calculate, you know, like how often it would be added and how much. So they knew exactly what to do.

[Assistant] Chlorine wasn't hard to get?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That sounds very, very workable.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The water board. They had to form a water board and designate like, okay, this is your job is to go out every X number of days and add chlorine. Because we would tell them, we would calculate, you know, like how often it would be added and how much. So they knew exactly what to do.

[Assistant] Chlorine wasn't hard to get?

[User] No.

[Assistant] That sounds very, very workable.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We didn't really touch on the housing that you were in when you were in Honduras.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] That sounds very, very workable.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We didn't really touch on the housing that you were in when you were in Honduras.

[User]
Um, so I found that. There was another volunteer in the city when I got there. So she was great and I stayed with her again a couple of weeks and she introduced me around and I met, uh, well, I called her my landlady, but she actually didn't own the house I stayed in. It was her. I can't remember exactly the family relation, but anyways, they actually lived in Miami. They owned this house. It was an old family home, but it had been just sitting vacant. So they said sure and rented it to me. And it was, it was beautiful. It was great. And in Guatemala, you know, you lived in generally there were adobe homes and every room was separate. You didn't hardly, there was, it was rare that you would have a house where you would be in one room and you could go into another room. You'd have to go outside and in because they built them as family compounds. So the parents would be there and then their sons would bring their wives and they'd have kids and everybody and it was all kind of built around a courtyard, an interior courtyard.

Where this house was kind of similar. But I actually my bedroom, bathroom, and living room all connected. I had an inside bathroom, which was amazing. I was like, oh my gosh. And then my kitchen, you had to go outside. But I had this big, beautiful courtyard with a garden that was just doing its own thing. There was roses and poinsettia trees, which I didn't even know poinsettias grew like trees so. And it was all walled off as all the homes are there. But yeah, it was nice.

[Assistant] Okay. So you had water supply in in the town that you were in.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] We didn't really touch on the housing that you were in when you were in Honduras.

[User]
Um, so I found that. There was another volunteer in the city when I got there. So she was great and I stayed with her again a couple of weeks and she introduced me around and I met, uh, well, I called her my landlady, but she actually didn't own the house I stayed in. It was her. I can't remember exactly the family relation, but anyways, they actually lived in Miami. They owned this house. It was an old family home, but it had been just sitting vacant. So they said sure and rented it to me. And it was, it was beautiful. It was great. And in Guatemala, you know, you lived in generally there were adobe homes and every room was separate. You didn't hardly, there was, it was rare that you would have a house where you would be in one room and you could go into another room. You'd have to go outside and in because they built them as family compounds. So the parents would be there and then their sons would bring their wives and they'd have kids and everybody and it was all kind of built around a courtyard, an interior courtyard.

Where this house was kind of similar. But I actually my bedroom, bathroom, and living room all connected. I had an inside bathroom, which was amazing. I was like, oh my gosh. And then my kitchen, you had to go outside. But I had this big, beautiful courtyard with a garden that was just doing its own thing. There was roses and poinsettia trees, which I didn't even know poinsettias grew like trees so. And it was all walled off as all the homes are there. But yeah, it was nice.

[Assistant] Okay. So you had water supply in in the town that you were in.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But the water supply projects that you worked on were really in the surrounding areas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] But the food. Like in Guatemala, everybody eats black beans. Except once a year there was a season of these big white beans. Like, I've never seen them here in the States, but they're these big, fat white beans that are so good. So you'd have that for like a month. And then everything else was black beans. In Honduras, no black beans. Everything is like this red bean. That was also really good. But it was interesting, just like bordering countries and they're little countries, like a little state, you know.

[Assistant] And not that far apart.

[User] Totally different culture, food, everything. It was neat.

[Assistant] Okay. After you finished your work then, um, you were there for a year. Did anybody come in to replace you?

[User]
Yes, actually, um, a couple came in. And they though were assigned to, I think only one of them was water and san. I cannot remember what the other one did. They did two different jobs. But again, to get a Peace Corps, at that time, to get a Peace Corps volunteer for an organization, that organization has to request it. They have to petition with the Peace Corps. And so I was trying to tell them. I was like, you guys need to petition to get, and I don't know if they ever did or got the paperwork, but a volunteer was assigned with a different organization. But I told them, I was like, even if it's just a side project or if your other doesn't. Because they were assigned to work with the water board or the water company, but it was a man.

So I was like, it might work out for you, but if it doesn't work with Action Against Hunger, like they are great. They are doing really good things in this country. So I tried to put the word in and set them up, but I didn't really keep up with them, unfortunately. So I don't know.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you keep in touch with any local people from the countries you served in, after you came home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Totally different culture, food, everything. It was neat.

[Assistant] Okay. After you finished your work then, um, you were there for a year. Did anybody come in to replace you?

[User]
Yes, actually, um, a couple came in. And they though were assigned to, I think only one of them was water and san. I cannot remember what the other one did. They did two different jobs. But again, to get a Peace Corps, at that time, to get a Peace Corps volunteer for an organization, that organization has to request it. They have to petition with the Peace Corps. And so I was trying to tell them. I was like, you guys need to petition to get, and I don't know if they ever did or got the paperwork, but a volunteer was assigned with a different organization. But I told them, I was like, even if it's just a side project or if your other doesn't. Because they were assigned to work with the water board or the water company, but it was a man.

So I was like, it might work out for you, but if it doesn't work with Action Against Hunger, like they are great. They are doing really good things in this country. So I tried to put the word in and set them up, but I didn't really keep up with them, unfortunately. So I don't know.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you keep in touch with any local people from the countries you served in, after you came home?

[User] Definitely from Guatemala I do. I did a little bit in Honduras, but then I've lost touch with everybody. I haven't kept up with people like I should have. But Guatemala, yeah. One of my best friends. She actually ended up moving to Spain for several years and married a man over there. And I went and I think I visited her in Spain three times. I still have not been back to Guatemala, but I want to so badly.

[Assistant] How was your transition back into the United States culture?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yes, actually, um, a couple came in. And they though were assigned to, I think only one of them was water and san. I cannot remember what the other one did. They did two different jobs. But again, to get a Peace Corps, at that time, to get a Peace Corps volunteer for an organization, that organization has to request it. They have to petition with the Peace Corps. And so I was trying to tell them. I was like, you guys need to petition to get, and I don't know if they ever did or got the paperwork, but a volunteer was assigned with a different organization. But I told them, I was like, even if it's just a side project or if your other doesn't. Because they were assigned to work with the water board or the water company, but it was a man.

So I was like, it might work out for you, but if it doesn't work with Action Against Hunger, like they are great. They are doing really good things in this country. So I tried to put the word in and set them up, but I didn't really keep up with them, unfortunately. So I don't know.

[Assistant] Okay. Do you keep in touch with any local people from the countries you served in, after you came home?

[User] Definitely from Guatemala I do. I did a little bit in Honduras, but then I've lost touch with everybody. I haven't kept up with people like I should have. But Guatemala, yeah. One of my best friends. She actually ended up moving to Spain for several years and married a man over there. And I went and I think I visited her in Spain three times. I still have not been back to Guatemala, but I want to so badly.

[Assistant] How was your transition back into the United States culture?

[User] It was.

[Assistant] That's often as difficult, if not more so than going overseas.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Definitely from Guatemala I do. I did a little bit in Honduras, but then I've lost touch with everybody. I haven't kept up with people like I should have. But Guatemala, yeah. One of my best friends. She actually ended up moving to Spain for several years and married a man over there. And I went and I think I visited her in Spain three times. I still have not been back to Guatemala, but I want to so badly.

[Assistant] How was your transition back into the United States culture?

[User] It was.

[Assistant] That's often as difficult, if not more so than going overseas.

[User]
Yeah, it was actually really, really hard for me. At first when I came back, you know, most people when they were leaving, they were already applying for jobs before they left the country. And me, I was like, I have been away for almost three and a half years. I just want to enjoy myself for a little bit and visit people, because I have friends all over the country. So I was like, I just want to run around and visit friends and play. And I made it up the East Coast to see my friends and then I started going out west. But by that point it had been two months I was back in the country and then I had like a nervous breakdown. I was like, I'm visiting these friends who all have lives. They have jobs, they have a place to live there, they have friends, and they're doing things. It's like, I have nothing. I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I like freaked out.

So I cut my trip short. I told my other friends, I was like, I can't visit you right now. I've got to get a job and a life and figure out what I'm doing.

[Assistant] You had some wonderful experience they didn't have, though.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] And had that experience?

[User] Yes. A lot of times I hated it while I was there. I've always been kind of an even keeled person. And during my service, I've never been on such an emotional roller coaster. Like, you know, I feel like, you know, somebody said something, you know, made some bad joke about me or whatever. And it was like the worst thing in the world. And I hate it here and everybody hates me and what am I doing here? And then my neighbor would bring me tortillas, you know, fresh off the plancha. And I'd be like, oh my God, this is the best ever. You know, it was just like up and down. Crazy roller coaster of emotions. And there was times where I felt like huge failure and nobody wanted me there. But overall, like, you can't have an experience like that and, you know, to learn so much about other people in a different way of life. Completely different. Like all the way that I function and think in the States just doesn't work down there.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's one of the big reasons the Peace Corps was established.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah, your time serving the country is appreciated. I don't know if there's anything you want to add, any, um, thing maybe?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. A lot of times I hated it while I was there. I've always been kind of an even keeled person. And during my service, I've never been on such an emotional roller coaster. Like, you know, I feel like, you know, somebody said something, you know, made some bad joke about me or whatever. And it was like the worst thing in the world. And I hate it here and everybody hates me and what am I doing here? And then my neighbor would bring me tortillas, you know, fresh off the plancha. And I'd be like, oh my God, this is the best ever. You know, it was just like up and down. Crazy roller coaster of emotions. And there was times where I felt like huge failure and nobody wanted me there. But overall, like, you can't have an experience like that and, you know, to learn so much about other people in a different way of life. Completely different. Like all the way that I function and think in the States just doesn't work down there.

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's one of the big reasons the Peace Corps was established.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah, your time serving the country is appreciated. I don't know if there's anything you want to add, any, um, thing maybe?

[User] I don't know. One thing, you know, I'm super excited about this initiative and hopefully people outside of the Peace Corps sphere will listen to these and hear more about it.

[Assistant] The oral history project?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Yeah, your time serving the country is appreciated. I don't know if there's anything you want to add, any, um, thing maybe?

[User] I don't know. One thing, you know, I'm super excited about this initiative and hopefully people outside of the Peace Corps sphere will listen to these and hear more about it.

[Assistant] The oral history project?

[User]
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Because I feel that, you know, like you said, we've done a service to our country. We weren't out there with guns fighting. But I think, you know, our presence in these countries, I like to think, oh okay, I did a little piece that will help the local people and their goals. But really, I think opening the door and just having better relations and people understanding us and us understanding them and bringing it back, I feel personally is as big of a contribution as our military. And yet everybody sees a soldier and says thank you, and I thank them too. I'm not diminishing that. But I was out there. I put my life on the line and did not have any way to protect myself.

You know, I knew a volunteer who him and his girlfriend were kidnapped and tortured. And, you know, and other volunteers have lost their lives. And we are put, like Guatemala was a super scary place when I was there. It was not safe at all. I felt safe in my little town. But any time I traveled outside of my town, it was scary. And we're targets a lot of times. And, you know, we're not given guns or a whole group of people around us to protect us. We're thrown out there like on our own. Okay, fine. Have fun. Bye bye. See you when you leave. And I feel that that isn't recognized, where we're peace building and community building like the military does. But they have so much support. And as Peace Corps volunteers, we don't.

[Assistant] Yeah. Uh huh.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don't know. One thing, you know, I'm super excited about this initiative and hopefully people outside of the Peace Corps sphere will listen to these and hear more about it.

[Assistant] The oral history project?

[User]
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Because I feel that, you know, like you said, we've done a service to our country. We weren't out there with guns fighting. But I think, you know, our presence in these countries, I like to think, oh okay, I did a little piece that will help the local people and their goals. But really, I think opening the door and just having better relations and people understanding us and us understanding them and bringing it back, I feel personally is as big of a contribution as our military. And yet everybody sees a soldier and says thank you, and I thank them too. I'm not diminishing that. But I was out there. I put my life on the line and did not have any way to protect myself.

You know, I knew a volunteer who him and his girlfriend were kidnapped and tortured. And, you know, and other volunteers have lost their lives. And we are put, like Guatemala was a super scary place when I was there. It was not safe at all. I felt safe in my little town. But any time I traveled outside of my town, it was scary. And we're targets a lot of times. And, you know, we're not given guns or a whole group of people around us to protect us. We're thrown out there like on our own. Okay, fine. Have fun. Bye bye. See you when you leave. And I feel that that isn't recognized, where we're peace building and community building like the military does. But they have so much support. And as Peace Corps volunteers, we don't.

[Assistant] Yeah. Uh huh.

[User] If that makes sense.

[Assistant] Yeah. No, absolutely. But, you know, you touched on something. I, uh, we didn't really discuss the conditions in the country when you were in Guatemala. Maybe you could elaborate on that a little bit. Why was it as dangerous as?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So they would, um, so certain areas of the country were off limits. Like I said, in the first year, the Petén, which is the whole northern section of the country, most of it's jungle. That was like crazy dangerous, wild wild west up there. So we were not allowed to visit or travel up that way at all. The second year they opened it up and I visited there no incident. But that, the one Peace Corps volunteer I knew who got kidnapped, it was actually up there.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User]
So, you know, it was, it was just not. I felt very safe in my community because it was small. Everybody knew me and they were very pro law abiding. They love their police force things. A lot of towns were not that way. They had vigilantes and militias and stuff. So it was interesting when I went to Honduras, other than one city was kind of notorious. It was not the capital, but kind of one of the bigger, bigger cities right outside the capital. Super dangerous. So they were like, do not go there, ever. But other than that, that country was so peaceful. Like I never was scared to travel. I would fall asleep on a bus and nothing would happen to me. And so it's shocking to me now. And I don't know if this is still the case, but as of like five years ago, all of a sudden, Honduras is the murder capital of the world. And I was like, it was so peaceful when I lived there.

So, yeah, in Honduras, you know, I would go out to a dance club and then walk half an hour to my house at 2:00 A.M. Never worried, never had an incident in Honduras. Now I would not go out to a city and do that.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Wow.

[User] So, yeah.

[Assistant] Very different experiences.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
So, you know, it was, it was just not. I felt very safe in my community because it was small. Everybody knew me and they were very pro law abiding. They love their police force things. A lot of towns were not that way. They had vigilantes and militias and stuff. So it was interesting when I went to Honduras, other than one city was kind of notorious. It was not the capital, but kind of one of the bigger, bigger cities right outside the capital. Super dangerous. So they were like, do not go there, ever. But other than that, that country was so peaceful. Like I never was scared to travel. I would fall asleep on a bus and nothing would happen to me. And so it's shocking to me now. And I don't know if this is still the case, but as of like five years ago, all of a sudden, Honduras is the murder capital of the world. And I was like, it was so peaceful when I lived there.

So, yeah, in Honduras, you know, I would go out to a dance club and then walk half an hour to my house at 2:00 A.M. Never worried, never had an incident in Honduras. Now I would not go out to a city and do that.

[Assistant] Uh huh. Wow.

[User] So, yeah.

[Assistant] Very different experiences.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Each volunteer says their experience is very different from someone else's. And here you had two very varied experiences, both in the work you did and the environment and culture. Well, unless you have anything else you want to add, I think we'll finish the interview. And again, thanks for your service.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I went over the hour and a half already?

[Assistant] Oh, no you didn’t.\n\n [Tape change]

[User] Let’s see. Where did we leave off?

[Assistant] You were talking about going and having Italian food for the first time.

[User] Oh yes.

[Assistant] Yes, and Kahlua.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was an amazing event. I think after almost 36 years the real heroes that need to be recognized on the Shuttle program were the pilots, the astronauts that flew Enterprise for its first separation flights. Because without validating it and taking it up to 40,000 feet, separating from the 747 and gliding it for the first time into the dry lake bed at Edwards—not knowing that it was going to glide, that the flight controls and the brakes were going to work and it was going to stop, and do all the things that it was supposed to do—the astronauts and the missions we’ve flown and the [International] Space Station is all great great stuff, but without that first ALT team and Fred [W.] Haise [Jr.], [C.] Gordon Fullerton, Bob [Robert L.] Crippen—those guys are the ones that really set the scene for the things that we continue to do today.

[Assistant] Were you out at Edwards for any of the testing?

[User] I was at Palmdale for the whole duration of Enterprise build, and then we went to Edwards and facilitated Edwards. Built the mate/demate hangar and the facility to pick up the orbiter and stack it on top of the 747, for the whole duration of the ALT program. I’ve been engaged with every orbiter, every build, every modification that was performed, whether it was at Palmdale or Edwards.

[Assistant] Like members of your family.

[User] Yes, the people that we worked with have just been incredible.

[Assistant] It was quite an undertaking, just moving the orbiter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was at Palmdale for the whole duration of Enterprise build, and then we went to Edwards and facilitated Edwards. Built the mate/demate hangar and the facility to pick up the orbiter and stack it on top of the 747, for the whole duration of the ALT program. I’ve been engaged with every orbiter, every build, every modification that was performed, whether it was at Palmdale or Edwards.

[Assistant] Like members of your family.

[User] Yes, the people that we worked with have just been incredible.

[Assistant] It was quite an undertaking, just moving the orbiter.

[User] We used to transport it overland. We had a huge transporter that we would put the vehicle on and literally transport it down city streets. I can remember prepping the city streets prior to Enterprise’s first trip down—used to be called Tenth Street, now it’s called Challenger Way. We removed stop signs, streetlights, telephone poles, trees to make it wide enough to accommodate the width of the wings for a 35-mile overland trip out to Edwards.\n\n I can remember that first day that we transported Enterprise. The people lined up on the streets. The nucleus of the public didn’t really know what the Space Shuttle was or what it was going to look like. The oohs and ahs and the applause was—goose bumps, it was pretty amazing. Then of course the rest is history because everybody in the world knows the Space Shuttle and for the most part supports the program. So it was amazing.

[Assistant] Were you part of the caravan?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] A lot of the folks came from Palmdale. Some of the folks came from Florida [NASA Kennedy Space Center]. Then at the time NASA was the prime contractor, we had a lot of NASA folks both from [NASA] Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California], from Edwards, and then from Houston [Texas, Johnson Space Center] and Florida, that we engaged with.\n\n As things grew, I grew. I became a supervisor, then a manager, responsible for a variety of things. When the program was over we came back to Palmdale and we all started working on [Space Shuttle] Columbia [OV-102]. Columbia was a totally different vehicle, because it was a space-rated vehicle. Enterprise was just to validate the airworthiness of a flight vehicle and demonstrate that it could do the things as advertised.

[Assistant] As you mentioned you came back, started working on Columbia. Had you previously started? Were there already components and [had] parts arrived?

[User] It was coming in, yes. As we were doing ALT, a lot of the components were starting to come in. We had a team of folks that were just receiving the components and placing them in the hangar and doing some work on it.

[Assistant] Were your teams pretty solidified from Enterprise to Columbia? Or did you start to have more additions of personnel or replacements of personnel?

[User] At the peak of Enterprise we probably had 300 people. At the peak of Columbia we had at least 1,000. But it was a totally different aircraft. We were developing tile, we were installing tile. Enterprise did not have tile as thermal protection as a space-rated vehicle. It had foam tile which simulated the appearance of the real tile. Columbia had far more flight controls and instruments and components of a real space vehicle—the APU [auxiliary power unit] system, all the cooling systems for the LRUs [line/lowest replaceable units]. We had to install all that; Enterprise didn’t have all that.

[Assistant] Did you find one of the components more challenging as you were bringing Columbia online?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It wasn’t easy. There was a huge effort to disassemble it at Vandenberg. Fifty-two semiloads of equipment and the structure we brought to Palmdale. Then about a 14-month effort to go facilitate it and erect it and validate it before we used it for Endeavour. Huge undertaking. Once again, the right people in the right jobs. We had dedicated guys we put on it. Hired one of the guys that worked for the crew that put it in Vandenberg to help us disassemble it, hired him to come help us put it back together.

[Assistant] What kind of time period were you looking at to accomplish this?

[User] We did it all in 14 months. That was a huge task, because the footing that each one of the poles, uprights for the OLF—they were like 60-foot in the ground, and they were 8 feet around rebar. We not only built the rebar on the ground, then we had to crane them up in the air and put them down in the hole, and then pour the cement around them. That was a huge task. Multiple cranes to erect it and put it together.

[Assistant] That was quite a sight to see.

[User] The sight was the first time we picked up the orbiter and unloaded the orbiter at Palmdale. That was a huge event not only for Palmdale, for everybody involved, because it was another historical evolution of the program. Now we could bring vehicles from Florida to Palmdale and send them right out of Palmdale, no longer have to take them overland like we used to transport them to Edwards. So that was a huge savings for the program and a huge event for being able to transport vehicles back and forth to California more expeditiously.

[Assistant] Was it your idea to move that piece?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Actually I’ve been to the Cape numerous times. I’m going to the next launch here in November [STS-133]. I’ve been out there for every landing at Edwards, because I still support the program. I go out there from the Palmdale standpoint, I bring skills and techs and stuff.

[Assistant] Looking back on all these years, what do you consider to be the most challenging aspect of your role in the Space Shuttle program?

[User] Probably the personal side. You get so wrapped up in work and what you’re doing. It’s not your work and what you’re doing, it’s what it’s going to do. I probably took away from family time back then worrying about building the Space Shuttle. That’s okay, my kids are cool with it.\n\n I think the astronauts are the coolest guys on Earth. They come in and they just want to be a part of what’s going on. They buddy with the people, they have a lot of friends, they make new friends. What was really neat is over the years as they would come back to Palmdale for whatever reason they wouldn’t forget your name. I hadn’t seen that guy in ten years and he remembered my name.

[Assistant] That’s amazing.

[User] That’s the things that you look at, and you always value and treasure forever. There’s Gordon Fullerton. Gordon Fullerton lives in Lancaster, and he is just an incredible man. We were out at Edwards, ALT, ’77, ’78; today I can see him and he’s like, “How you doing, Bob? Haven’t seen you in ten years.” A lot of cool people at the Cape. You don’t see them every day, but when you do see them they remember who you are and the things you’ve done. When I hang it up here in a couple years, that’s probably when I look back and say, yes this has been cool.

[Assistant] What do you feel has been your most significant contribution? What have you been glad you’ve been able to do for the program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I don’t really know. I did it that way because I didn’t have any money! When I got out of high school, I worked for a year before I even went to junior college. I went to junior college while I got a scholarship to Michigan State, I didn’t have enough money to go there. So, I had to go back to work. And since the Korean War started on Sunday and I started my job on Monday, and I was 20 years old, that was—I was prime bait for the draft. And so, I was going to get drafted right away. And, I don’t know. It just turned out perfect for me. So, I might add that, you know, that I went into the Air Force—I’d never been in an airplane. Never been off the ground. I’d already joined the Air Force, was in the Air Force, was accepted for pilot training before I had my first ride. So, fortunately I liked it!

[Assistant] What was your flying career involved with primarily at that time?

[User] Well, when I finished up flying school I went to—the Korean War was on, I went to gunnery school; and over in Korea I flew F-86s. Flew 145 combat missions. I flew my last one 2 hours after the armistice was signed—with a lot of trepidation. Nobody wants to get shot down after the war is over! But anyway, I did it. They allowed us to—they were very generous. They allowed us to fight for another 12 hours. So anyway, when that was over I came back and I was in a fighter squadron in Maine, then another one in New Jersey, and then I went back to school at the University of Michigan.

[Assistant] To what I think would be a stellar academic career. As I recall, you graduated top of your class.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] One would get the impression that perhaps the military experience really gave you that sense of purpose.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] One would get the impression that perhaps the military experience really gave you that sense of purpose.

[User] Well, it focused me a lot more. I think probably the thing that really focused me was when I was going through pilot training. If you were an aviation cadet that came into the program as a civilian, if you washed out of flying school you went back to being a civilian. Because the Korean War was on, there were a lot of people trying to join the Air Force and get into pilot training. And in a class—entry time from when you applied to when you got into a class, sort of—you had to stretch out. And my deferment from the draft was fixed, and the class I was going to get into stretched out past that time. So, I was notified by the Air Force I had a choice of either letting that deferment expire and taking my chances on whether the Army would call me before the Air Force did or joining the Air Force as a private. But I elected to do that. And then now I was already in the military, and if I washed out of pilot training I went back to being a private or an enlisted man for four years. And four years to somebody who’s that age is a lifetime! And I really didn’t want to do that for four years. So, I got a lot more focused in what I was doing!

[Assistant] Were you one of these people for whom flying was just instinctive?

[User] Well, it turned out it—that’s right. It was, really. Having never been in an airplane and no idea what it was all about, and I think I was the first guy to solo in my pilot training class—even though there were guys in there that had 100 hours of flying time before they ever came into the Air Force. So, I did it very quickly. I just took to it.

[Assistant] After graduation at the top of your class in Michigan, you went in then in Test Pilot School.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it focused me a lot more. I think probably the thing that really focused me was when I was going through pilot training. If you were an aviation cadet that came into the program as a civilian, if you washed out of flying school you went back to being a civilian. Because the Korean War was on, there were a lot of people trying to join the Air Force and get into pilot training. And in a class—entry time from when you applied to when you got into a class, sort of—you had to stretch out. And my deferment from the draft was fixed, and the class I was going to get into stretched out past that time. So, I was notified by the Air Force I had a choice of either letting that deferment expire and taking my chances on whether the Army would call me before the Air Force did or joining the Air Force as a private. But I elected to do that. And then now I was already in the military, and if I washed out of pilot training I went back to being a private or an enlisted man for four years. And four years to somebody who’s that age is a lifetime! And I really didn’t want to do that for four years. So, I got a lot more focused in what I was doing!

[Assistant] Were you one of these people for whom flying was just instinctive?

[User] Well, it turned out it—that’s right. It was, really. Having never been in an airplane and no idea what it was all about, and I think I was the first guy to solo in my pilot training class—even though there were guys in there that had 100 hours of flying time before they ever came into the Air Force. So, I did it very quickly. I just took to it.

[Assistant] After graduation at the top of your class in Michigan, you went in then in Test Pilot School.

[User] Right. I went right from school—right from the University of Michigan out to the Test Pilot School, and I went through that in the class of—’59C I think it was.

[Assistant] What motivated the decision to go that direction as opposed to going off into civilian life?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And you really became kind of the core, as you look back on it—the management core, the leadership core of the Apollo Program. And also, a lot of the leadership and command responsibilities for Gemini. Did you have much involvement with Mercury at that time? Or was it pretty much straight into Gemini and Apollo?

[User] Oh no. See, when we got there the—by the time we got to NASA, it was around the 1st of October of ’62. [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] , [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom, [John H.] Glenn [Jr.] , [M. Scott] Carpenter had already flown. And we got there early in October. We were told we were going to have like a month to sort of get settled in. But the second day we were there, I think, we were told we were going to leave for the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] that night for [Walter M.] Schirra’s [Jr.] flight. So, we went out down there and we watched it. But we didn’t really contribute anything to it. And then, when [L. Gordon] Cooper [Jr.] flew, we went down about three or four weeks before the flight and just watched the countdowns but we didn’t—we made no contribution whatsoever. As a matter of fact, we were probably in everybody’s way. But at any rate, we were down there on a learning experience to see what it was like before the flight.

[Assistant] And of course, Cooper’s was the last of the Mercury flights.

[User] It was the last of the Mercury Seven.

[Assistant] So, you focused very early on, on Gemini and, I presume, Apollo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh no. See, when we got there the—by the time we got to NASA, it was around the 1st of October of ’62. [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] , [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom, [John H.] Glenn [Jr.] , [M. Scott] Carpenter had already flown. And we got there early in October. We were told we were going to have like a month to sort of get settled in. But the second day we were there, I think, we were told we were going to leave for the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] that night for [Walter M.] Schirra’s [Jr.] flight. So, we went out down there and we watched it. But we didn’t really contribute anything to it. And then, when [L. Gordon] Cooper [Jr.] flew, we went down about three or four weeks before the flight and just watched the countdowns but we didn’t—we made no contribution whatsoever. As a matter of fact, we were probably in everybody’s way. But at any rate, we were down there on a learning experience to see what it was like before the flight.

[Assistant] And of course, Cooper’s was the last of the Mercury flights.

[User] It was the last of the Mercury Seven.

[Assistant] So, you focused very early on, on Gemini and, I presume, Apollo.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Well, when we got there, we were all—the nine of us were assigned engineering jobs, engineering responsibilities. And those engineering responsibilities focused on Gemini and Apollo; so you had the same responsibility across both programs. Mine was guidance and navigation, so I looked after the computers, such as they were, in Gemini and the software programs. And then the same thing over in Apollo, all the guidance and navigation stuff—the telescopes, the computers, the software, etc., for the Astronaut Office. I wasn’t in charge of it for the Program Office, but it was the astronaut input to these things.

[Assistant] What kind of a relationship did you guys have with the first group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was the last of the Mercury Seven.

[Assistant] So, you focused very early on, on Gemini and, I presume, Apollo.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Well, when we got there, we were all—the nine of us were assigned engineering jobs, engineering responsibilities. And those engineering responsibilities focused on Gemini and Apollo; so you had the same responsibility across both programs. Mine was guidance and navigation, so I looked after the computers, such as they were, in Gemini and the software programs. And then the same thing over in Apollo, all the guidance and navigation stuff—the telescopes, the computers, the software, etc., for the Astronaut Office. I wasn’t in charge of it for the Program Office, but it was the astronaut input to these things.

[Assistant] What kind of a relationship did you guys have with the first group?

[User] At that time it was more of a—well, it’s really hard to explain. They were involved in what they were doing. Some of them had already flown. Al [Shepard] was sort of he was the head of the Office, as I recall. Maybe Deke [Donald K. Slayton] was; I don’t remember how it was at that time. But—

[Assistant] They—Slayton and Shepard had both been removed from flight status weren’t they?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. Well, when we got there, we were all—the nine of us were assigned engineering jobs, engineering responsibilities. And those engineering responsibilities focused on Gemini and Apollo; so you had the same responsibility across both programs. Mine was guidance and navigation, so I looked after the computers, such as they were, in Gemini and the software programs. And then the same thing over in Apollo, all the guidance and navigation stuff—the telescopes, the computers, the software, etc., for the Astronaut Office. I wasn’t in charge of it for the Program Office, but it was the astronaut input to these things.

[Assistant] What kind of a relationship did you guys have with the first group?

[User] At that time it was more of a—well, it’s really hard to explain. They were involved in what they were doing. Some of them had already flown. Al [Shepard] was sort of he was the head of the Office, as I recall. Maybe Deke [Donald K. Slayton] was; I don’t remember how it was at that time. But—

[Assistant] They—Slayton and Shepard had both been removed from flight status weren’t they?

[User] No, I don’t think so. No.

[Assistant] They were still on?