{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 48.22827624756424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[19]’59."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 195—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In ’58. That was when I came with the Alpha Draco in ’58."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were with McDonnell?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I stayed with McDonnell—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn’t even McDonnell Douglas at the time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 53.58697360840471, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In ’58. That was when I came with the Alpha Draco in ’58."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were with McDonnell?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I stayed with McDonnell—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn’t even McDonnell Douglas at the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was McDonnell Aircraft Corporation."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 59.54108178711635, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I stayed with McDonnell—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn’t even McDonnell Douglas at the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was McDonnell Aircraft Corporation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, and—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first job with—for them here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 26, "return_to_go": 66.15675754124038, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was McDonnell Aircraft Corporation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, and—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first job with—for them here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now that was again, I was the—Okay, we had an interesting thing. I was supposed to be responsible for the pad operations for the spacecraft. Now you’re going to realize all through my active career I had very little to do with the boosters or the rockets itself. In other words, I knew the basic fundamentals of it but I had no input as to what they did, how they did, or when they did. So essentially I was responsible for the spacecraft preparations for launch. In other words, once a spacecraft hit the Cape, then we had to coordinate who wants to do what or who must do what from the time it got here until we launched it. That was my job—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was Mercury."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 55.71827090571616, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he said that, “This is a chance that you take, but you try to avoid taking it.” In other words, I mean—you try to get away all the things that could leave you in that predicament. And by the way, the boy, when he found out John was one of the seven, he said, “Oh, oh, where’s a hole I can climb into?”\\n\\n But this is again, you know, John was very, very much people oriented. I mean, he was great as a matter of fact. He had a patience that I wouldn’t have had. We were having dinner, his family and [M.] Scott Carpenter and so on, at the Holiday Inn at that time, and a fellow came up to him and shot the—during the dinner shot a picture and said, “Hey, sign this” you know. And I was going to tell the fellow what he could do with the picture. But John says , “Okay,” and he signed it. I said, “John, I think I could have told him what he can do with the picture.” He says, “Guenter,” he says, “that goes with the job.” So he was always that way that oriented. And it was interesting to work with him. He went sometimes farther than the other astronauts who thought that time was precious and you have to use every minute of it for whatever comes along. But not John."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, as pad—as pad leader—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, we had—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—in charge of pad operations, I’m curious, because this is a job that no one had done before."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It didn’t exist before, to be responsible for launching humans into space. So how did you kind of create your own job description?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 27.276850558987505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So see, these are the things that you learn and you find out and you try to, see, make provisions for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did your family know how dangerous it was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or did you—? They did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no question about it. The same way I always made it a habit of, for each crew that flew in Apollo, I had their families come up and look at the spacecraft before they went. I showed them what it looks like, what it is, so that they had a good idea as to what it is their husbands get into. Now you have to be realistic about it. I mean, this is the thing you volunteer for it, and that goes with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well let me throw in a question here, just because of something you just said. Their husbands climbing in. In the beginning, it was all men. You had daughters. I mean, how did you think about when the idea of women coming into it and doing that what all the men did in the beginning?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 32.03320063121359, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No they left them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’d just present it and then you take it down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The suit techs would take it back and it would then go to Houston [Texas] for them when they came back, you know. No, you couldn’t put anything in the spacecraft because we controlled very tightly what was going in the spacecraft. With the exception of the PPKs, which is the personal preference kit, you know little bags on the side of where the astronaut could elect things that they wanted to take, like medallions or—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What have you heard, or what do you know first-hand is one of the strangest things that ever flew along that somebody wouldn’t think would’ve been on a spacecraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh in—I don’t know how many went along, but in Gemini, we had a bunch of ants in the spacecraft, which we had a heck of a time trying to get them out. We don’t even know how they got in there. But can you imagine ants? And anyhow, but that was probably one of the strangest—I’m not sure what other strange things went along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That the astronauts might’ve taken?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 30.036889590237315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The suit techs would take it back and it would then go to Houston [Texas] for them when they came back, you know. No, you couldn’t put anything in the spacecraft because we controlled very tightly what was going in the spacecraft. With the exception of the PPKs, which is the personal preference kit, you know little bags on the side of where the astronaut could elect things that they wanted to take, like medallions or—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What have you heard, or what do you know first-hand is one of the strangest things that ever flew along that somebody wouldn’t think would’ve been on a spacecraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh in—I don’t know how many went along, but in Gemini, we had a bunch of ants in the spacecraft, which we had a heck of a time trying to get them out. We don’t even know how they got in there. But can you imagine ants? And anyhow, but that was probably one of the strangest—I’m not sure what other strange things went along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That the astronauts might’ve taken?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, see that was—normally we kept that pretty quiet. As a matter of fact, on 11 I had a little opal I wanted to send along for my wife. I asked Neil if he would take it. But in order to do that, I had to put the opal in plastic. I had to run it through a vacuum chamber to evacuate it. I had to expose it for 24 hours, 100% oxygen atmosphere. Make sure we run it through a spectrometer that it didn’t outgas anything. Because you had to be very, very careful what you took along because, yeah, it was touchy. You didn’t want to have anything detrimental to the health of the crew. So, it was very, very thought of as to what they would take along. Normally what they would take in the PPK was cleared and manifested with the Chief of the Astronaut Office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you brought up Apollo 11. What was that like, to close out, and you think, “They’re going to the Moon. I mean, they’re going to the Moon!”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.940662449614486, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the way it goes, you see. I mean, these were the 120 seconds I told you. If nothing went wrong, we had a 120 seconds to exchange little gifts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that you would—sometimes you would carry out a gotcha during that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You see, that’s the same thing with that fish that came up on Apollo 11. The most important flight. We had [Neil A.] Armstrong, he gave me a coupon for a ride between any two planets, anytime I want to, you know? So, and [Edwin E. \"Buzz\"] Aldrin [Jr.] he had gotten me a copy of (it’s right in that cabinet there)—of Good News for Modern Man: A Condensed Version of the Bible. And I told him, I said, as a—his dad had donated it to a Presbyterian church in Houston. I said, “You were too cheap to buy one. You had to get one from those things back.” Anyhow, so it’s autographed there. And then when [Michael] Collins’ turn came to get in, he had a brown paper bag, illegal as you know what, in the white room. And out of it comes that fish you see up on the wall there. And he said—See, I used to go and take the astronauts fishing when they were in quarantine, and we would go water skiing and things like that. And he says, “Hey, at your house I’ve never seen a big trophy trout or trophy fish on your wall. You need one.” So now we have a trophy trout. Now there’s three things wrong: Illegal size. Not cleaned. And not preserved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a live fish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a dead fish."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.82295827734943, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You see, that’s the same thing with that fish that came up on Apollo 11. The most important flight. We had [Neil A.] Armstrong, he gave me a coupon for a ride between any two planets, anytime I want to, you know? So, and [Edwin E. \"Buzz\"] Aldrin [Jr.] he had gotten me a copy of (it’s right in that cabinet there)—of Good News for Modern Man: A Condensed Version of the Bible. And I told him, I said, as a—his dad had donated it to a Presbyterian church in Houston. I said, “You were too cheap to buy one. You had to get one from those things back.” Anyhow, so it’s autographed there. And then when [Michael] Collins’ turn came to get in, he had a brown paper bag, illegal as you know what, in the white room. And out of it comes that fish you see up on the wall there. And he said—See, I used to go and take the astronauts fishing when they were in quarantine, and we would go water skiing and things like that. And he says, “Hey, at your house I’ve never seen a big trophy trout or trophy fish on your wall. You need one.” So now we have a trophy trout. Now there’s three things wrong: Illegal size. Not cleaned. And not preserved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a live fish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a dead fish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was frozen, ja."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A frozen fish."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.114763305369664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was frozen, ja."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A frozen fish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a matter of fact of all the things in my life people had gotten those things for them the night before launch, out of the Banana River. And then the food techs had collaborated to go ahead, freeze it, and just stick it on the board. So for 22 years it stuck in my freezer, until I found somebody to freeze-dry it; and now I can hang it up on the wall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So these were little things—if we had the time, then we could do that. To break the tension."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the answer to this might be one of the stories you’ve already told me. But, what was your favorite gotcha that somebody did to you and that you did to an astronaut?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.79418145041074, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a matter of fact of all the things in my life people had gotten those things for them the night before launch, out of the Banana River. And then the food techs had collaborated to go ahead, freeze it, and just stick it on the board. So for 22 years it stuck in my freezer, until I found somebody to freeze-dry it; and now I can hang it up on the wall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So these were little things—if we had the time, then we could do that. To break the tension."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the answer to this might be one of the stories you’ve already told me. But, what was your favorite gotcha that somebody did to you and that you did to an astronaut?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. It was lots of going back and forth. You always had that back and forth. I don’t think there was any favorite one. I think the one that got me the most was that live snake, because that was really something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It scared you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 40.88242383378971, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So these were little things—if we had the time, then we could do that. To break the tension."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the answer to this might be one of the stories you’ve already told me. But, what was your favorite gotcha that somebody did to you and that you did to an astronaut?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. It was lots of going back and forth. You always had that back and forth. I don’t think there was any favorite one. I think the one that got me the most was that live snake, because that was really something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It scared you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because in here, in Florida, a snake is something you always worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I’m going to ask you about, actually, you know, earlier you were talking about the checkout at the pad and that preflight checklist. And you kind of went through a few of the procedures. I’m curious: Do you still remember the preflight checklist? I mean, can you, like, go through it in your mind? And do you find yourself—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 45.42491537087745, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. It was lots of going back and forth. You always had that back and forth. I don’t think there was any favorite one. I think the one that got me the most was that live snake, because that was really something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It scared you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because in here, in Florida, a snake is something you always worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I’m going to ask you about, actually, you know, earlier you were talking about the checkout at the pad and that preflight checklist. And you kind of went through a few of the procedures. I’m curious: Do you still remember the preflight checklist? I mean, can you, like, go through it in your mind? And do you find yourself—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have one right here. I mean—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you play it over and over in your mind? And—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 48.24990596764161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because in here, in Florida, a snake is something you always worry about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I’m going to ask you about, actually, you know, earlier you were talking about the checkout at the pad and that preflight checklist. And you kind of went through a few of the procedures. I’m curious: Do you still remember the preflight checklist? I mean, can you, like, go through it in your mind? And do you find yourself—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have one right here. I mean—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you play it over and over in your mind? And—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not anymore. Because we knew the major things we had to do—But the individual steps, which step number it was, and which valve it is—As a matter of fact—I had a hard time because, again, when we did that scene at the white room, Tom [Hanks] says, “Hey, I want to have the correct pressure reading on the cabin pressure gauge.” I didn’t know what it was. So I had to get back to find my ECS [Environmental Control Systems] engineer. I says , “What was the actual reading we had?” Well then we had to set that gauge right. And that’s how accurate he wanted to have that stuff done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you used your preflight checklist when you were a consultant on From Earth to the Moon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 50.277673297379565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have one right here. I mean—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you play it over and over in your mind? And—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not anymore. Because we knew the major things we had to do—But the individual steps, which step number it was, and which valve it is—As a matter of fact—I had a hard time because, again, when we did that scene at the white room, Tom [Hanks] says, “Hey, I want to have the correct pressure reading on the cabin pressure gauge.” I didn’t know what it was. So I had to get back to find my ECS [Environmental Control Systems] engineer. I says , “What was the actual reading we had?” Well then we had to set that gauge right. And that’s how accurate he wanted to have that stuff done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you used your preflight checklist when you were a consultant on From Earth to the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. And not just that. I mean, I had about 8 or 10 books over there. It’s not just a preflight checklist. I mean, we did certain things. —Like for instance, how did we position the M-113s on the pad? You know. And how did we do this? And in the cabinet there behind me, see, I have about 1000 pictures yet and so on that you had to go back and—. Let me show you something there. Hand me that light book there for a second.\\n\\n Okay. See, here is the real script. By the way, every time you see a revision, see, the color changes for a revision. And then in reviewing the stuff—. Okay. See, then they use certain aspects of it. Like for instance, we were talking about when—after we did that, he said. Wally Schirra talks to me, and he says, “Hey, the elevator is malfunctioning.” I said, “That isn’t what he said. He said, ‘The elevator crapped out,’ —” See that’s the way—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they write in your change to “crapped out?”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.612825536420264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s now during the later—that was before I retired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you—do you think that that’s some of the climate that led to\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n , I mean, in my book is—The biggest mistake made was when a bureaucrat overrules the chief engineer. The chief engineer of Thiokol had recommended not to fly and he wouldn’t sign the paper for readiness for flight. But then the vice president decided that he would sign the paper, “Ready for flight.” Now as a technical person, if you overrule your chief engineer, you’d better think twice and find out why he doesn’t want to have that paper signed. Well, there’s one of the biggest things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess I meant the climate within NASA, though, that led to the fact that there was this underlying problem in the first place and that feeling of not—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, there again you’re getting into an area where individual centers have their individual kingdom. And anytime you run into a bureaucracy, you have situations which you don’t really care for. But—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean Marshall?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.68091726268918, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. The\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n , I mean, in my book is—The biggest mistake made was when a bureaucrat overrules the chief engineer. The chief engineer of Thiokol had recommended not to fly and he wouldn’t sign the paper for readiness for flight. But then the vice president decided that he would sign the paper, “Ready for flight.” Now as a technical person, if you overrule your chief engineer, you’d better think twice and find out why he doesn’t want to have that paper signed. Well, there’s one of the biggest things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess I meant the climate within NASA, though, that led to the fact that there was this underlying problem in the first place and that feeling of not—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, there again you’re getting into an area where individual centers have their individual kingdom. And anytime you run into a bureaucracy, you have situations which you don’t really care for. But—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean Marshall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Marshall, right. And you have it again. I mean, sometimes with Houston, with Kennedy, with Marshall. Each one has their budget. Each one has their pet project. Each one’s the ones that do that. And there is a competition which may not necessarily be the best for the program. So you have to worry about that. But, luckily I didn’t have to play that game, even though I was accused that I completely disregarded who I was working for. But that didn’t mean anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s talk about who you were working for. Because you know many people would look at your career and just assume you’re NASA. And you never worked for NASA."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.978796958543533, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, there again you’re getting into an area where individual centers have their individual kingdom. And anytime you run into a bureaucracy, you have situations which you don’t really care for. But—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean Marshall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Marshall, right. And you have it again. I mean, sometimes with Houston, with Kennedy, with Marshall. Each one has their budget. Each one has their pet project. Each one’s the ones that do that. And there is a competition which may not necessarily be the best for the program. So you have to worry about that. But, luckily I didn’t have to play that game, even though I was accused that I completely disregarded who I was working for. But that didn’t mean anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s talk about who you were working for. Because you know many people would look at your career and just assume you’re NASA. And you never worked for NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never worked for NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You always worked for contractors."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 25.531996620603927, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Marshall, right. And you have it again. I mean, sometimes with Houston, with Kennedy, with Marshall. Each one has their budget. Each one has their pet project. Each one’s the ones that do that. And there is a competition which may not necessarily be the best for the program. So you have to worry about that. But, luckily I didn’t have to play that game, even though I was accused that I completely disregarded who I was working for. But that didn’t mean anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s talk about who you were working for. Because you know many people would look at your career and just assume you’re NASA. And you never worked for NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never worked for NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You always worked for contractors."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did—how—what was that relationship like? I mean, and describe it to me in terms of what it was back then versus the contractor/NASA relationship today. And how you interacted with your NASA counterparts."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.052425881121668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I said, “You didn’t have a piece of paper to even attach that plastic.” And he looked at me—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of spacecraft was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "An Apollo spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And see, he knew that’s the way it is. But if I had gone strictly by the rules, I couldn’t put that plastic on the spacecraft without a piece of paper. I had no signatures. I had no authorization. I had nothing. But I had a leak in the roof. You see, this is when you have to go ahead and make exceptions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did he say to you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.836028756801852, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "An Apollo spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And see, he knew that’s the way it is. But if I had gone strictly by the rules, I couldn’t put that plastic on the spacecraft without a piece of paper. I had no signatures. I had no authorization. I had nothing. But I had a leak in the roof. You see, this is when you have to go ahead and make exceptions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did he say to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He said, “I won’t bug you again.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the last flight that you served in your capacity as pad leader? I mean, what—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.55065278617512, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He said, “I won’t bug you again.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the last flight that you served in your capacity as pad leader? I mean, what—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ASTP—the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. And then I did the same functions when we did the approach and landing test at Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. But when you did the Apollo-Soyuz, did you know that going in that that was going to be your last time as pad leader?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 21.72294754019458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ASTP—the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. And then I did the same functions when we did the approach and landing test at Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. But when you did the Apollo-Soyuz, did you know that going in that that was going to be your last time as pad leader?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, I would assume that because, see, then we didn’t have anything left to go on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I mean, what were your feelings then, thinking, “Wow, this could be the last time,” and—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.332895919198133, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn’t tell you the name. I know who it was. You’ll probably know it, too. [Richard] Gephardt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after, you know, Apollo—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. So then I went to Edwards for what was supposed to be 1 year, and then 2 years, and I was responsible for the Orbiter preparations for the test and for bringing it back… In other words, I had a—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For Shuttle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the Shuttle. Ja. The Orbiter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I know."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.892464097775473, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the Shuttle. Ja. The Orbiter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. I know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Shuttle is the whole thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So okay, and—because the Air Force was very touchy about, you know, that we had ammonia on board and so on. We had to taxi by the thing plus the fact I had to go out and I had to—they had to do the flight control system—the ailerons and the rudder. But they couldn’t see it. So when they were on the runway, just before takeoff, you know, we would give them a go ahead. We had to power up the APUs [Auxiliary Power Units]— which run on hydrazine. They’re on—Ja, on hydrazine. And then we would do the 20 degree, 30 degree, you know, right rudder, left rudder, left rudder, and so on. And I would tell him that everything is okay. Then I would wait on the runway when they came back and see if we had any leaks and so on and clear them to go past the Air Force hangars to go back to our hangar. That was during the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And those were, like, approach and landing tests?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.102737886417192, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Shuttle is the whole thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So okay, and—because the Air Force was very touchy about, you know, that we had ammonia on board and so on. We had to taxi by the thing plus the fact I had to go out and I had to—they had to do the flight control system—the ailerons and the rudder. But they couldn’t see it. So when they were on the runway, just before takeoff, you know, we would give them a go ahead. We had to power up the APUs [Auxiliary Power Units]— which run on hydrazine. They’re on—Ja, on hydrazine. And then we would do the 20 degree, 30 degree, you know, right rudder, left rudder, left rudder, and so on. And I would tell him that everything is okay. Then I would wait on the runway when they came back and see if we had any leaks and so on and clear them to go past the Air Force hangars to go back to our hangar. That was during the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And those were, like, approach and landing tests?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the so-called approach and landing test, ja. You remember where we took the Shuttle and we dropped it off the 747."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think, I mean? When you see, you know, such a different vehicle than what you were used to? I mean, what did you just think? That your career had spanned such technological development."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.447486540463546, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So okay, and—because the Air Force was very touchy about, you know, that we had ammonia on board and so on. We had to taxi by the thing plus the fact I had to go out and I had to—they had to do the flight control system—the ailerons and the rudder. But they couldn’t see it. So when they were on the runway, just before takeoff, you know, we would give them a go ahead. We had to power up the APUs [Auxiliary Power Units]— which run on hydrazine. They’re on—Ja, on hydrazine. And then we would do the 20 degree, 30 degree, you know, right rudder, left rudder, left rudder, and so on. And I would tell him that everything is okay. Then I would wait on the runway when they came back and see if we had any leaks and so on and clear them to go past the Air Force hangars to go back to our hangar. That was during the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And those were, like, approach and landing tests?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the so-called approach and landing test, ja. You remember where we took the Shuttle and we dropped it off the 747."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think, I mean? When you see, you know, such a different vehicle than what you were used to? I mean, what did you just think? That your career had spanned such technological development."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I never like to stand still. As a matter of fact, to be real honest, I was tired of doing back to the Moon. It was just more of the same. You want to do something else. You want to go farther— You want to do—You know, if you just do the same thing, I wasn’t too great for that, to doing the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you want to—I mean, you still worked for Rockwell when the first Shuttle launched. Did you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.83054060051505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the so-called approach and landing test, ja. You remember where we took the Shuttle and we dropped it off the 747."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think, I mean? When you see, you know, such a different vehicle than what you were used to? I mean, what did you just think? That your career had spanned such technological development."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I never like to stand still. As a matter of fact, to be real honest, I was tired of doing back to the Moon. It was just more of the same. You want to do something else. You want to go farther— You want to do—You know, if you just do the same thing, I wasn’t too great for that, to doing the same thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you want to—I mean, you still worked for Rockwell when the first Shuttle launched. Did you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, I worked for them until [19]’89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, what did you think when the first Shuttle launched in the early ’80s? Did you want to—Did you say, Oh I want to get back in there? I noticed there was a picture that said Bob [Robert L.] Crippen said he looked forward to when you could strap him into the Space Shuttle."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.729062469771666, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, I worked for them until [19]’89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, what did you think when the first Shuttle launched in the early ’80s? Did you want to—Did you say, Oh I want to get back in there? I noticed there was a picture that said Bob [Robert L.] Crippen said he looked forward to when you could strap him into the Space Shuttle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah I know. Bob also flew in the approach and landing test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, no. By that time, there was some or other strong controversy between the top management and myself about—and—as a matter of fact, the local head of Rockwell said I would never make it back to the Cape. But then some way it got interfered with, and I was back at the Cape. So that was a little sideline. But I then wound up in the safety program, as I was looking at flight crew safety and developing procedures—for flight crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you think that times had changed? I mean, I—you’ve talked about how you ran a pad operation."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.365624966412962, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah I know. Bob also flew in the approach and landing test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, no. By that time, there was some or other strong controversy between the top management and myself about—and—as a matter of fact, the local head of Rockwell said I would never make it back to the Cape. But then some way it got interfered with, and I was back at the Cape. So that was a little sideline. But I then wound up in the safety program, as I was looking at flight crew safety and developing procedures—for flight crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you think that times had changed? I mean, I—you’ve talked about how you ran a pad operation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think the times changed and kind of—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 18.184027740458845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, no. By that time, there was some or other strong controversy between the top management and myself about—and—as a matter of fact, the local head of Rockwell said I would never make it back to the Cape. But then some way it got interfered with, and I was back at the Cape. So that was a little sideline. But I then wound up in the safety program, as I was looking at flight crew safety and developing procedures—for flight crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But do you think that times had changed? I mean, I—you’ve talked about how you ran a pad operation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think the times changed and kind of—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wouldn’t have fit in with the Shuttle being out there saying, “I’m running this at the pad.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.117898254769505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, to begin with you need to understand: Even the first Shuttle flight, we had a heck of a time getting it off. I mean, we had so many problems with the Shuttle—and so on that we really had to work hard. And so on. And I was pretty much in the part of solving problems. And I got again criticized for talking directly to NASA and solving the problems—And they said, “Hey, you talk to NASA?” I said, “Yeah, we had a problem. I talked to the guy here. We agreed we could do it that way, so we did.” “Oh, you shouldn’t talk to him. I mean, if O’Malley hears about it, he’s going to fly off the roof, you know.” And see, I couldn’t stomach that quite a bit.\\n\\n There are people too much concerned with what the image is or what this is or what that is. It is not a coherent operation like we used to do it. In other words, right now if there is a problem we’d rather form a committee to solve the problem. I’d like to go back to the thing: You and I sign the paper, and it’s our tail end if this goes up. Okay? Then you know you are responsible for it. I know I am responsible for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think when you watched\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n ? I mean, did you know right away?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I knew when I saw it. I knew what—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t know why it happened—when I saw it go bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.908775838632783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I knew when I saw it. I knew what—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t know why it happened—when I saw it go bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I immediately think about the people, and then you have some other thoughts because, see, I knew what can transpire in the crew compartment, okay? And what—later on I was on the investigation with it—And primarily crew activities and crew things. So I knew what actually happened.\\n\\n And here again, I mean, there were about seven people of us who knew quite a bit. And we agreed we wouldn’t talk, except to the families if they asked us. But then some joker eventually got a piece of paper and publicized it in the—on the press or so, which is ridiculous because there was—there were many unwritten laws. Because there were certain things you did not talk about. And now it is more or less: it’s a job. You know, it’s no longer the dedication. I mean the guy looked at it and [said], “Hey, man, it’s a quarter to 4. Forget it,” he says, “I’m going off at 4 o’clock.” He doesn’t give a damn what happens after 4 o’clock. There are not—I mean, there are some good people there.\\n\\n I mean, don’t get me wrong. But with all the layoffs, everybody worries about, “Oh man, if I say there is something wrong, hey, I’m going to get fired. Or if I do something wrong, I’m going to get fired.” And you can’t operate that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did—what do you think the impact\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n had on just the morale of people that you worked with and—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.628338495962453, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you need at least 2 minutes for seven people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me the story about the test with that pole, that you were in Houston and you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was just another one of those things—where I got involved in it because of the past experience. I don’t want to dwell on it very much. That people says that I had done most of the—even during the Shuttle, the pad operations, the emergency egress test, I had written a lot of them and I had a conducted a lot of them— And we always would play different games. In other words, come up with a different scenario to make sure the crew had to respond to it correctly. That was one of the biggest things I did in the Shuttle Program, to worry about the egress test that we had. But that was only during pad operations. See? There is no—much you can do after your liftoff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And most people don’t realize that either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The—did you leave Rockwell? I mean, in—did you retire after the return to flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.355973451805498, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And most people don’t realize that either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The—did you leave Rockwell? I mean, in—did you retire after the return to flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I retired in [19]’89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ja, ja. No, we had quite a few flights after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. What would—what did you think, I mean—I assume you watched the return to flight right here from Florida. And what did you think then? That—you know, you’d gone through the Apollo 1 fire, not working for the company involved but you’d seen that and you’d seen the recovery from that. Did you think it would take 2 years to recover from\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n before they’d fly again?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.95108161311722, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I retired in [19]’89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ja, ja. No, we had quite a few flights after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. What would—what did you think, I mean—I assume you watched the return to flight right here from Florida. And what did you think then? That—you know, you’d gone through the Apollo 1 fire, not working for the company involved but you’d seen that and you’d seen the recovery from that. Did you think it would take 2 years to recover from\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n before they’d fly again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I would think yes. But the main things which bothered me was, all the help you got from politicians and non-technical people. In other words, there were so many restrictions, so many conditions put on which are unnecessary—that actually had became more of a hindering block than a contributing factor. So, even today it is—a lot of decisions are made more at the political level than at the technical level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you receive your Silver Snoopy Award? I see it hanging up there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.501201792352466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ja, ja. No, we had quite a few flights after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. What would—what did you think, I mean—I assume you watched the return to flight right here from Florida. And what did you think then? That—you know, you’d gone through the Apollo 1 fire, not working for the company involved but you’d seen that and you’d seen the recovery from that. Did you think it would take 2 years to recover from\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n before they’d fly again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I would think yes. But the main things which bothered me was, all the help you got from politicians and non-technical people. In other words, there were so many restrictions, so many conditions put on which are unnecessary—that actually had became more of a hindering block than a contributing factor. So, even today it is—a lot of decisions are made more at the political level than at the technical level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you receive your Silver Snoopy Award? I see it hanging up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, John Young gave that to me. It was ’87 or somewhere—’86 or ’87, I’m not sure. I’ll have to look at the date."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, you know, that award always means a lot because it’s presented by the astronauts for kind of exceptional service. What did you receive it for?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.223557547058295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I would think yes. But the main things which bothered me was, all the help you got from politicians and non-technical people. In other words, there were so many restrictions, so many conditions put on which are unnecessary—that actually had became more of a hindering block than a contributing factor. So, even today it is—a lot of decisions are made more at the political level than at the technical level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you receive your Silver Snoopy Award? I see it hanging up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, John Young gave that to me. It was ’87 or somewhere—’86 or ’87, I’m not sure. I’ll have to look at the date."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, you know, that award always means a lot because it’s presented by the astronauts for kind of exceptional service. What did you receive it for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, it says right there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My eyes aren’t that good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.026175052286995, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, John Young gave that to me. It was ’87 or somewhere—’86 or ’87, I’m not sure. I’ll have to look at the date."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, you know, that award always means a lot because it’s presented by the astronauts for kind of exceptional service. What did you receive it for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, it says right there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My eyes aren’t that good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. They realized that I contributed over many, many years to the safety of the flight crews and to the success of their operations. In other words, I did not have a scrub that was blamed on us. I did not have a failure that was blamed on the pad operations and so on. So that was pretty much appreciated. And that was the reason that I was able to disregard a lot of rules and regulations, because I had a tremendous support from the flight crews. In other words, if I couldn’t get through to some people I would just go to the flight crews. I says , “Hey, there is something you—there is a question you may want to ask at the flight readiness review and see what kind of an answer you get.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think is different about that relationship now between the folks who serve in your role now with the astronauts at the pad?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 23.355521333727012, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They don’t have the close contact anymore. I mean, they—right now you see the flight crews for egress test, for a CDDT [Countdown Demonstration Test], and for launch. See, all major test in Mercury and Apollo and Gemini were where the flight crew participated. See, you had a flight crew and you had a backup crew. You either saw one or the other. But it was a daily basis. They were here every day. Every time you ran a test, they were there.\\n\\n In Mercury and even in Gemini, they went to the home plant and they watched the spacecraft being built. Once you were assigned to it—it became your spacecraft. And the same way, I mean, the technicians were very, very much attached to a spacecraft. See like for example, in Apollo we had one in the hangar and one on the pad. Now there was a lot of competition. I mean, these people, they said, “Don’t you touch my spacecraft!” It was their spacecraft. See, and it was their crew. So it made quite a difference. Right now, once they fly, you don’t see them anywhere. I mean, it’s—maybe you see them on TV. There is—the interaction is not there anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I take it you don’t think that’s necessarily a good thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I would have liked them—maybe there’s a necessity with all the things that go on— The payload specialist. What I would have liked pretty much, the—at least the commander and the pilot and maybe the mission specialist, the three key people, that they would spend more time in the trenches. What I call “in the trenches.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the Cape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the Cape, right. That’s when—I mean, that’s my own personal opinion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do any stories about particular astronauts that kind of stick in your mind that you think, “Oh if future generations are looking at this tape, many years from now,” you think, “boy they really need to know this story.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 13.7791429, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Need a glass of water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would probably help. Why don’t we let him get it?\\n\\n All right, the first one. When you look back over your career, what do you think? I mean, we were just talking about the what did the American public get out of the sacrifices that you made? You talked—you worked 7 weeks in a row once without a day off."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, but—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your family sacrificed. What did we all get out of that? When—in your own words, what do you think it all meant? For our society, to have gone and done this."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.589000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think I probably got my reward when I retired. They just about—all the people that worked for me told me I was not the most lovable character, but they always would like to work for me because I was fair and I was easy to work with in that regard. So, and for myself I said, I always set out to find a job I liked to do and then do it. It isn’t work. It is really something you like to do.\\n\\n When I used to go recruiting in colleges, I always told the graduates, I says , “Don’t take a job because it pays well. Take a job you like because if you like what you’re doing, you’re going to be great at it.” That’s the way I like to look at it. I don’t look at myself as being anything extraordinary. I was very, very fortunate enough, having survived World War II, having coming over here, having found a job I like to do and got paid for it. So, I mean, what more can you ask? So I’m very happy.\\n\\n As a matter of fact, a little side stories: Wernher von Braun became a good friend of mine. At one time early in the program I asked him, I said, “Wernher, I don’t like rumors. And I have a rumor, and I’d like you to say Yes or No.” He said, “What’s the rumor?” I said, “Rumor has it that General Motors offered you $500,000 to come to work for them and you turned them down. True or false?” [phone rings] He said—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oops."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh excuse me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The last story. I just want—And actually I’ll have you start. Tell me about the Guenter—I mean, tell me the story with Wernher von Braun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s the one."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00601:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.210000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh excuse me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The last story. I just want—And actually I’ll have you start. Tell me about the Guenter—I mean, tell me the story with Wernher von Braun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that’s the one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. So I asked him, I said, “True or false?” He says, “True.” He says, “They offered me $500,000 to come to work for them.” And I said, “Now, wait a minute.” I said, “You’re making $36,000 a year.” That was the highest pay for NASA at that time. “Why do you turn a $500,000 job down?” And he says, “Guenter, what I dream to build no private company can afford. And I’d rather build my dream.” So he turned them down.\\n\\n Now, jumping a number of years. Before he passed away, we were again together on an award a contract show, and by that time I know he didn’t have long to go. And he knew it. So I asked him. I said, “Wernher, are you sorry for something you wanted to do you didn’t get done?” And he says, “Guenter,” he says, “when I pass on, I’m the most contented person that ever will pass away because my dream became a reality. I go in peace.” So that was a—I mean, he was a great guy. A photographic mind. I mean, I enjoyed working with him.\\n\\n In a way he was a little bit also like somebody I know. We went to a meeting, a 3-day meeting, one time and there were 72 people in the conference room with nameplates nicely calligraphed. And we started the meeting. At lunchtime he says, “Gentlemen,” (there were no ladies there at the time) “we’ll break for lunch. Let it be known that anybody who was has not spoken to or addressed by the agenda, do not return for the rest of the meeting.” Twenty-four people showed up after lunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was just his way."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 42.65101040900616, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Crew Systems was responsible for the life support system, for the EVA [Extravehicular Activity] system. I'm trying to think of the other things. A lot of other things. A lot of other things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some things that you learned from the Mercury Program that you were able to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pass on?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, gosh, that's kind of hard to say. We were responsible in the Mercury Program for the life support system. We had an animal program, medical instrumentation. A lot of stuff. And I think really we kind of took that stuff and kind of let it roll into the Gemini Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any things that you learned in the Mercury Program or learned that were not necessarily good things to do that you did carry over into the Gemini Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 47.3900115655624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pass on?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, gosh, that's kind of hard to say. We were responsible in the Mercury Program for the life support system. We had an animal program, medical instrumentation. A lot of stuff. And I think really we kind of took that stuff and kind of let it roll into the Gemini Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any things that you learned in the Mercury Program or learned that were not necessarily good things to do that you did carry over into the Gemini Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't think of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don't we, as we go through the Gemini Program, just take mission by mission and look at some of the advancements that were made in each mission. We can start with Gemini III, with [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom and [John W.] Young. What did you take from any of the unmanned missions in Gemini and apply to Mercury?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 52.65556840618045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, gosh, that's kind of hard to say. We were responsible in the Mercury Program for the life support system. We had an animal program, medical instrumentation. A lot of stuff. And I think really we kind of took that stuff and kind of let it roll into the Gemini Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any things that you learned in the Mercury Program or learned that were not necessarily good things to do that you did carry over into the Gemini Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't think of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don't we, as we go through the Gemini Program, just take mission by mission and look at some of the advancements that were made in each mission. We can start with Gemini III, with [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom and [John W.] Young. What did you take from any of the unmanned missions in Gemini and apply to Mercury?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We really didn't take much from the unmanned part of the thing. I think really the unmanned part was more a demonstration they could put the thing up and bring it back. So I think in Gemini III we were mainly evaluating the life support system, their space suits, their medical instrumentation, and food system. There was a lot of things like that. It was a very successful mission. One of the things that got the crew in trouble, they smuggled a sandwich on board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that didn't make Crew Systems very happy?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 57.395076006867164, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't think of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don't we, as we go through the Gemini Program, just take mission by mission and look at some of the advancements that were made in each mission. We can start with Gemini III, with [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom and [John W.] Young. What did you take from any of the unmanned missions in Gemini and apply to Mercury?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We really didn't take much from the unmanned part of the thing. I think really the unmanned part was more a demonstration they could put the thing up and bring it back. So I think in Gemini III we were mainly evaluating the life support system, their space suits, their medical instrumentation, and food system. There was a lot of things like that. It was a very successful mission. One of the things that got the crew in trouble, they smuggled a sandwich on board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that didn't make Crew Systems very happy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn't bother me. [Laughter] No, it didn't bother me. It bothered some people at the [Johnson Space] Center, but it didn't bother me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They also had a mishap that resulted in a broken faceplate, for Grissom, and a scratched one for John Young. What kind of changes did you make in the space suits to prevent something like that from happening again?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 61.55008445207463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We really didn't take much from the unmanned part of the thing. I think really the unmanned part was more a demonstration they could put the thing up and bring it back. So I think in Gemini III we were mainly evaluating the life support system, their space suits, their medical instrumentation, and food system. There was a lot of things like that. It was a very successful mission. One of the things that got the crew in trouble, they smuggled a sandwich on board."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that didn't make Crew Systems very happy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn't bother me. [Laughter] No, it didn't bother me. It bothered some people at the [Johnson Space] Center, but it didn't bother me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They also had a mishap that resulted in a broken faceplate, for Grissom, and a scratched one for John Young. What kind of changes did you make in the space suits to prevent something like that from happening again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we went to Lexan visors, as I recall. I don't know exactly why Gus broke his visor. That spacecraft came down, and then when it hit the water, it flopped over. I think that's when he broke it. So I really can't tell you any more than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were the space suits for Gemini different from the ones used in Mercury?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.95031159765833, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I'll tell you what we did. We took things that we could get from the Mercury ECS [Environmental Control System] and the Gemini ECS and we designed the thing around those components. The thing worked great. It really did. I guess of all the things I ever did while I worked in Crew Systems, that was one of the best, because we did it in house and we didn't tell anybody we were doing it. I kept a list of everybody that knew about it. We finished it up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the zip gun work as you anticipated?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In fact, I went over to Paris [France] after that mission, to give a paper at the IF, and I was getting ready to go, and somebody said there was a guy named Don Flickenger [phonetic], a general in the Air Force, and he had picked a copy of the film up, and it really irritated me, so I called him in Paris. I said, \"Don, I understand you've got a copy of the Gemini IV EVA.\"\\n\\n He said, \"Yes. Why?\"\\n\\n I said, \"I'm giving a paper and I'm going to use that film, and I'd like you to put that back in your suitcase and leave it there.\" He didn't know what to say. So anyhow, that's what happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then the next mission was Gemini V, which was an eight-day mission, which at that time was the longest mission that we'd performed. What type of changes did Crew Systems have to implement to accommodate an eight-day mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For one thing, we made different suits for them. Was Gemini V the fourteen-day mission?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe it was an eight-day mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.72256844184259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In fact, I went over to Paris [France] after that mission, to give a paper at the IF, and I was getting ready to go, and somebody said there was a guy named Don Flickenger [phonetic], a general in the Air Force, and he had picked a copy of the film up, and it really irritated me, so I called him in Paris. I said, \"Don, I understand you've got a copy of the Gemini IV EVA.\"\\n\\n He said, \"Yes. Why?\"\\n\\n I said, \"I'm giving a paper and I'm going to use that film, and I'd like you to put that back in your suitcase and leave it there.\" He didn't know what to say. So anyhow, that's what happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then the next mission was Gemini V, which was an eight-day mission, which at that time was the longest mission that we'd performed. What type of changes did Crew Systems have to implement to accommodate an eight-day mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For one thing, we made different suits for them. Was Gemini V the fourteen-day mission?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe it was an eight-day mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We made a soft suit that the guys could take off, they could doff. As I recall, it was Jim McDivitt and Frank Borman flew that mission. Who do you have down there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gemini V, [L. Gordon] Cooper [Jr.] and [Charles C. “Pete”] Conrad."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.580631602047323, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For one thing, we made different suits for them. Was Gemini V the fourteen-day mission?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I believe it was an eight-day mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We made a soft suit that the guys could take off, they could doff. As I recall, it was Jim McDivitt and Frank Borman flew that mission. Who do you have down there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gemini V, [L. Gordon] Cooper [Jr.] and [Charles C. “Pete”] Conrad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember them going eight days. Maybe they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Borman and [James A.] Lovell [Jr.] went fourteen."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.534035113385915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We made a soft suit that the guys could take off, they could doff. As I recall, it was Jim McDivitt and Frank Borman flew that mission. Who do you have down there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gemini V, [L. Gordon] Cooper [Jr.] and [Charles C. “Pete”] Conrad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember them going eight days. Maybe they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Borman and [James A.] Lovell [Jr.] went fourteen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's where we made the soft suit. I don't know what I can tell you about the Gemini V. We had suits that David Clark had built, and that's pretty much what they flew. And the food system and everything else was like we had done in Gemini IV. It was kind of an uneventful mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In [Gemini VII], there was some disagreement about whether the astronauts should keep their suits on the whole time or could take them off. Were you involved at all in that discussion?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.704483459317682, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember them going eight days. Maybe they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Borman and [James A.] Lovell [Jr.] went fourteen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's where we made the soft suit. I don't know what I can tell you about the Gemini V. We had suits that David Clark had built, and that's pretty much what they flew. And the food system and everything else was like we had done in Gemini IV. It was kind of an uneventful mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In [Gemini VII], there was some disagreement about whether the astronauts should keep their suits on the whole time or could take them off. Were you involved at all in that discussion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.89387051035298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's where we made the soft suit. I don't know what I can tell you about the Gemini V. We had suits that David Clark had built, and that's pretty much what they flew. And the food system and everything else was like we had done in Gemini IV. It was kind of an uneventful mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In [Gemini VII], there was some disagreement about whether the astronauts should keep their suits on the whole time or could take them off. Were you involved at all in that discussion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought they should take the suits off. I mean, if you're going to be up there for fourteen days, you sure as hell don't want to sit around in a suit that's—you can't sweat, you can't do anything. So that's the reason we built some soft suits that they could doff and put on when they needed to, and that's what we flew. We developed those in, gosh, I don't know, five or six months. I had a real group of people working for me in Crew Systems. We could do anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we move to Gemini VIII, that was the one with [Neil A.] Armstrong and [David R.] Scott, where they had the thruster malfunction and the spacecraft was rolling. Did Crew Systems learn anything about the way men handle emergencies in space from this incident?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.326522789281086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought they should take the suits off. I mean, if you're going to be up there for fourteen days, you sure as hell don't want to sit around in a suit that's—you can't sweat, you can't do anything. So that's the reason we built some soft suits that they could doff and put on when they needed to, and that's what we flew. We developed those in, gosh, I don't know, five or six months. I had a real group of people working for me in Crew Systems. We could do anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we move to Gemini VIII, that was the one with [Neil A.] Armstrong and [David R.] Scott, where they had the thruster malfunction and the spacecraft was rolling. Did Crew Systems learn anything about the way men handle emergencies in space from this incident?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. We didn't really. I think really the problem with that mission was more with the system that controlled the attitude of the spacecraft. I think they did a good job of straightening it out and bringing it in and landing it without any trouble. But, no, I didn't learn anything from it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gemini IX with [Thomas P.] Stafford and [Eugene A.] Cernan had problems on the EVA. Can you tell us about that incident?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 30.626231535365, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll tell you what. We had built a maneuvering unit which we had located in the back of the spacecraft, and what Cernan had to do was to go out and go around to the back of the spacecraft and pick this thing up. For some reason, he ran into some troubles and he couldn't get back in and pick it up, so he never did use the maneuvering unit. He just couldn't get back there.\\n\\n I think we learned a couple of things from that. Number one, we didn't have enough handholds and restraint systems and so on for him to go back there and pick the thing up. And that was not Crew Systems' fault, that was the fault of the people building the spacecraft. So I always felt bad about that, but I didn't feel responsible for it in any way. I had nothing to do with how the back of that spacecraft was built."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cernan also had problems because he was working so hard that his suit and the visor fogged up. What kind of changes did you make in future EVA suits so that that sort of thing didn't happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think we really did anything for the Gemini suits. Unfortunately, when he exerted all this energy, he started sweating and the sweat condensed on the visor and it went on from there. The suit caught a lot of static about it, but it really wasn't the suit; it was the way the handholds and things built back in that part of the spacecraft so that you could go back and retrieve that maneuvering unit. So I never felt responsible for anything like that. None of the people working for me did either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you participate in any way in training for EVAs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "People working for me did, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because by Gemini XII, Aldrin had incorporated underwater training."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.918035039294445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think we really did anything for the Gemini suits. Unfortunately, when he exerted all this energy, he started sweating and the sweat condensed on the visor and it went on from there. The suit caught a lot of static about it, but it really wasn't the suit; it was the way the handholds and things built back in that part of the spacecraft so that you could go back and retrieve that maneuvering unit. So I never felt responsible for anything like that. None of the people working for me did either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you participate in any way in training for EVAs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "People working for me did, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because by Gemini XII, Aldrin had incorporated underwater training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. In fact, I think really as a result of Cernan's problem, we started training the astronauts in a water tank, doing tasks like they would do when they were in flight. It ended up being a worthwhile way to train people to do EVA. You've got to understand that when we first did EVAs, it was something totally new, and the people doing training didn't really have the proper things to train people to do the EVAs. Those people worked for a guy named Warren [J.] North. But I think that the experiences we had in Gemini taught us a lot about how to do EVAs, so it all worked out before it was over with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some things that you learned in Gemini that you were able to apply in Apollo?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.57559448810494, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "People working for me did, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because by Gemini XII, Aldrin had incorporated underwater training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. In fact, I think really as a result of Cernan's problem, we started training the astronauts in a water tank, doing tasks like they would do when they were in flight. It ended up being a worthwhile way to train people to do EVA. You've got to understand that when we first did EVAs, it was something totally new, and the people doing training didn't really have the proper things to train people to do the EVAs. Those people worked for a guy named Warren [J.] North. But I think that the experiences we had in Gemini taught us a lot about how to do EVAs, so it all worked out before it was over with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some things that you learned in Gemini that you were able to apply in Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For one thing, we learned that if you're going to send somebody outside the spacecraft, you've got to have restraint systems and things that they can get a hold of to go move about the spacecraft, which we did in Apollo. I guess really that's the biggest thing we learned. Cernan probably did as much as anybody to get us started in the right way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have people working on Apollo at the same time as working on Gemini?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 40.639549431227714, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. In fact, I think really as a result of Cernan's problem, we started training the astronauts in a water tank, doing tasks like they would do when they were in flight. It ended up being a worthwhile way to train people to do EVA. You've got to understand that when we first did EVAs, it was something totally new, and the people doing training didn't really have the proper things to train people to do the EVAs. Those people worked for a guy named Warren [J.] North. But I think that the experiences we had in Gemini taught us a lot about how to do EVAs, so it all worked out before it was over with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some things that you learned in Gemini that you were able to apply in Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For one thing, we learned that if you're going to send somebody outside the spacecraft, you've got to have restraint systems and things that they can get a hold of to go move about the spacecraft, which we did in Apollo. I guess really that's the biggest thing we learned. Cernan probably did as much as anybody to get us started in the right way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have people working on Apollo at the same time as working on Gemini?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do anything to promote communications between them?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 39.59949936803079, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For one thing, we learned that if you're going to send somebody outside the spacecraft, you've got to have restraint systems and things that they can get a hold of to go move about the spacecraft, which we did in Apollo. I guess really that's the biggest thing we learned. Cernan probably did as much as anybody to get us started in the right way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have people working on Apollo at the same time as working on Gemini?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do anything to promote communications between them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I had regular staff meetings, and they compared notes on what they were doing for the Gemini suit and the Apollo suit and so on.\\n\\n What made it difficult then, we were supporting two programs. An awful lot of our energy went into the Gemini Program because it was happening. I remember one day I went out to [North American] Rockwell, and I was flying back with Joe [Joseph F.] Shea. He was sitting next to me. He started on me, and I took it for as long as I could, and I finally said, \"Joe, will you just shut up. We're doing everything we can for you and your program, but get off my back.\" He never, ever bothered me after that. I liked Joe Shea. He was okay, but he was very arrogant. I shouldn't say that, I guess, but I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After Gemini, then you went into Apollo. You talked extensively about Apollo 1 before, so maybe we can start with Apollo 7. How did you feel about the quality of the Block II command and service module (CSM) before Apollo 7 went up?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 42.888332631145325, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do anything to promote communications between them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I had regular staff meetings, and they compared notes on what they were doing for the Gemini suit and the Apollo suit and so on.\\n\\n What made it difficult then, we were supporting two programs. An awful lot of our energy went into the Gemini Program because it was happening. I remember one day I went out to [North American] Rockwell, and I was flying back with Joe [Joseph F.] Shea. He was sitting next to me. He started on me, and I took it for as long as I could, and I finally said, \"Joe, will you just shut up. We're doing everything we can for you and your program, but get off my back.\" He never, ever bothered me after that. I liked Joe Shea. He was okay, but he was very arrogant. I shouldn't say that, I guess, but I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After Gemini, then you went into Apollo. You talked extensively about Apollo 1 before, so maybe we can start with Apollo 7. How did you feel about the quality of the Block II command and service module (CSM) before Apollo 7 went up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Are we going to talk about Apollo now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, if that's okay."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:88", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 18.7741371002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mike Collins. Mike was one of the best guys I've ever known. And they did it. We all did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. It took everybody to make it happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. You know, we brought them back and put them into quarantine for, I guess, twenty-one days. I've forgot. But they all said—in fact, most of the crews who landed on the Moon and had to go into quarantine for three weeks really thought that was the best thing that ever happened to them, because it gave them a chance to unwind and to sit down and chronicle their thoughts and write their memoirs and do whatever they wanted to do without a lot of press people and whatever bothering them. Now, they were happy as hell to get out of there, but I think that they were a good crew. As I say, Aldrin was probably the only flake in the group, and he still is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've talked about the Apollo fire, which was a great tragedy, and then Apollo 11, which was such a triumph to come back and make it all happen. Then you mentioned that you worked on the Review Board for Apollo 13 when their accident occurred, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We didn't talk much about that. Can you tell us a little bit about what you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00316:96", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 17.153081999999998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fred Haise. But, you know, we brought them back and they were fine. But it was touch and go for a lot of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Luckily you were able to help get them back successfully, and it all worked out and the Apollo Program went on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I think, as a result of that fire, though, they went back and redid those tanks, because we didn't fly Apollo 14 for probably six months after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have one last question that's a little bit off our topics for today, but in the light of what's going on up in space right now, John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] is flying aboard the Space Shuttle. You worked with him during the Mercury Program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and I worked with him before he was an astronaut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any thoughts on his space flight right now?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.115139065238377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, when I was a child, it was long ago enough that there wasn’t a space program.\\n\\n I had thought about going to West Point, and there was a lieutenant colonel that lived in our neighborhood and told me about the new Air Force Academy that was being developed. And so I applied and was accepted to the first class, and many of my instructors there were starting to talk about the new space program.\\n\\n We had program managers who did things in the new missiles that were coming into the air force, and talked about how it wouldn’t be terribly long before we started a space program, and so that was kind of my introduction to space. And, of course, being at the Air Force Academy made me desire to become a pilot as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a unique privilege to be in the first class of the Air Force Academy then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, it really was. We had a lot of instructors who were going to be later taking over departments, and they were usually very well qualified. My physics instructor was the range safety officer at Eniwetok [Atoll] atomic tests. My astrodynamics instructor was a deputy at the test pilot school. You know, it was on like that, so it was really quite a privilege to be there then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you graduated in 1959. So that was just when things were starting in the space program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after you graduated from the academy, where did you go into next?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 23.46126562804264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, it really was. We had a lot of instructors who were going to be later taking over departments, and they were usually very well qualified. My physics instructor was the range safety officer at Eniwetok [Atoll] atomic tests. My astrodynamics instructor was a deputy at the test pilot school. You know, it was on like that, so it was really quite a privilege to be there then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you graduated in 1959. So that was just when things were starting in the space program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after you graduated from the academy, where did you go into next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to pilot training. I became a fighter pilot. I served two tours as a fighter pilot and then went to the test pilot school. The test pilot school at that time had basically an aircraft test, and then they started talk about space activities. I applied to the Air Force Manned Orbiting Laboratory [MOL] and was accepted, and that was my first tour as an astronaut, was in an air force program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know some of that’s probably still classified, but can you still tell us something about your activities in the MOL Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.51251736449182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after you graduated from the academy, where did you go into next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to pilot training. I became a fighter pilot. I served two tours as a fighter pilot and then went to the test pilot school. The test pilot school at that time had basically an aircraft test, and then they started talk about space activities. I applied to the Air Force Manned Orbiting Laboratory [MOL] and was accepted, and that was my first tour as an astronaut, was in an air force program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know some of that’s probably still classified, but can you still tell us something about your activities in the MOL Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The astronauts’ activities there were patterned rather similarly to the astronauts’ activities here at NASA. Of course, NASA had already been in operation.\\n\\n I was stationed in Los Angeles [California] at, at that time, called Space and Missile Systems Organization and spent a couple of years there in the MOL Program, participating in the development of that activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any interaction with NASA at that time? I know they were planning on using an adapted Gemini capsule for that program. So did you interact in any way with NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.680574849435356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to pilot training. I became a fighter pilot. I served two tours as a fighter pilot and then went to the test pilot school. The test pilot school at that time had basically an aircraft test, and then they started talk about space activities. I applied to the Air Force Manned Orbiting Laboratory [MOL] and was accepted, and that was my first tour as an astronaut, was in an air force program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know some of that’s probably still classified, but can you still tell us something about your activities in the MOL Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The astronauts’ activities there were patterned rather similarly to the astronauts’ activities here at NASA. Of course, NASA had already been in operation.\\n\\n I was stationed in Los Angeles [California] at, at that time, called Space and Missile Systems Organization and spent a couple of years there in the MOL Program, participating in the development of that activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any interaction with NASA at that time? I know they were planning on using an adapted Gemini capsule for that program. So did you interact in any way with NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I came down here a couple of times and before that, even, when I was at the test pilot school, I had come down to NASA. I had done a little research on—the people were starting to think of the question of, “Okay, what do you do with a person who is not necessarily a pilot but whose skills are going to be necessary on a space vehicle?” And I can remember coming down here and talking to Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The MOL Program kind of had a few setbacks and budget problems and things. Did the people you worked with in that program realize that it was potentially going to come to an end, or while you were there, did you really think it was going to come to fruition?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.867305388261506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The astronauts’ activities there were patterned rather similarly to the astronauts’ activities here at NASA. Of course, NASA had already been in operation.\\n\\n I was stationed in Los Angeles [California] at, at that time, called Space and Missile Systems Organization and spent a couple of years there in the MOL Program, participating in the development of that activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any interaction with NASA at that time? I know they were planning on using an adapted Gemini capsule for that program. So did you interact in any way with NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I came down here a couple of times and before that, even, when I was at the test pilot school, I had come down to NASA. I had done a little research on—the people were starting to think of the question of, “Okay, what do you do with a person who is not necessarily a pilot but whose skills are going to be necessary on a space vehicle?” And I can remember coming down here and talking to Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The MOL Program kind of had a few setbacks and budget problems and things. Did the people you worked with in that program realize that it was potentially going to come to an end, or while you were there, did you really think it was going to come to fruition?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we all thought that it was going to come to fruition. It was a surprise that it was just cancelled one day. I can remember I had a classmate from the Air Academy that had come to the MOL Program and it was his first day, and they called everybody down to the auditorium, and they said, “Guess what, folks? The program’s been canceled.” [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.297005986957227, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I came down here a couple of times and before that, even, when I was at the test pilot school, I had come down to NASA. I had done a little research on—the people were starting to think of the question of, “Okay, what do you do with a person who is not necessarily a pilot but whose skills are going to be necessary on a space vehicle?” And I can remember coming down here and talking to Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The MOL Program kind of had a few setbacks and budget problems and things. Did the people you worked with in that program realize that it was potentially going to come to an end, or while you were there, did you really think it was going to come to fruition?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we all thought that it was going to come to fruition. It was a surprise that it was just cancelled one day. I can remember I had a classmate from the Air Academy that had come to the MOL Program and it was his first day, and they called everybody down to the auditorium, and they said, “Guess what, folks? The program’s been canceled.” [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So he was kind of surprised, as we were all were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in 1969."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.996673318841363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we all thought that it was going to come to fruition. It was a surprise that it was just cancelled one day. I can remember I had a classmate from the Air Academy that had come to the MOL Program and it was his first day, and they called everybody down to the auditorium, and they said, “Guess what, folks? The program’s been canceled.” [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So he was kind of surprised, as we were all were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in 1969."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a pivotal year that your program got canceled. About a month later, a man landed on the Moon. Vietnam was going on. After they came and told you that this program was canceled, what did you see as your options, and how did you make your decision what direction you wanted to go?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 27.774081465379293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So he was kind of surprised, as we were all were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in 1969."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a pivotal year that your program got canceled. About a month later, a man landed on the Moon. Vietnam was going on. After they came and told you that this program was canceled, what did you see as your options, and how did you make your decision what direction you wanted to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I decided that it was time in my career that if there was going to be a change, that I should go to school. And so I applied and was allowed to go to school and went to USC [University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California], which is right there in California, and, of course, also had applied for NASA here and was accepted into the astronaut corps here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you just continued your schooling until that was done, and then you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.637868294865882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a pivotal year that your program got canceled. About a month later, a man landed on the Moon. Vietnam was going on. After they came and told you that this program was canceled, what did you see as your options, and how did you make your decision what direction you wanted to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I decided that it was time in my career that if there was going to be a change, that I should go to school. And so I applied and was allowed to go to school and went to USC [University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California], which is right there in California, and, of course, also had applied for NASA here and was accepted into the astronaut corps here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you just continued your schooling until that was done, and then you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then came here. Yes, there were three of us who had gone to school for a year out of the seven who came here to become astronauts, and we just continued for a year. NASA said, “Yeah, we like you, but, we can wait an extra six months or so until you finish with your school.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your first impressions when you came down here to be an astronaut, move to Houston, and getting indoctrinated into the NASA way of doing things, which was probably a little different than what you’d been used to."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 31.7751460430443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then came here. Yes, there were three of us who had gone to school for a year out of the seven who came here to become astronauts, and we just continued for a year. NASA said, “Yeah, we like you, but, we can wait an extra six months or so until you finish with your school.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your first impressions when you came down here to be an astronaut, move to Houston, and getting indoctrinated into the NASA way of doing things, which was probably a little different than what you’d been used to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, of course, it was different. We came down here and purchased a house and got moved in. Perhaps the first year or so was rather, at times, rather frustrating down here. During the first year, we were told twice that we were fired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. [Bergen laughs] And then that was rescinded. They said, “The program is not going anyplace. We don’t need you folks, and, so you’re going to be let go and go back to the air force.” But that was rescinded, and we stayed and got involved in the programs that were going on here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your initial training that you had when you came here? Were you trained in anything in particular?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 23.083495603382552, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, of course, it was different. We came down here and purchased a house and got moved in. Perhaps the first year or so was rather, at times, rather frustrating down here. During the first year, we were told twice that we were fired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. [Bergen laughs] And then that was rescinded. They said, “The program is not going anyplace. We don’t need you folks, and, so you’re going to be let go and go back to the air force.” But that was rescinded, and we stayed and got involved in the programs that were going on here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your initial training that you had when you came here? Were you trained in anything in particular?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First thing I started to work on was Space Station, believe it or not. [Bergen laughs] Not Skylab, but Space Station. And after the Apollo Program, there was a group that got together, a high-level group, and decided that the United States should have two things: one was the Space Station, and, two, was a way to easily get in and out of space, and that was the Space Shuttle.\\n\\n And so it became evident rather quickly that they didn’t have money to do both of those, and so they focused on the Space Shuttle, because you couldn’t do a station without a shuttle.\\n\\n So they did turn the Station around a little. They had talked about launching a station on top of a Saturn [rocket], and when they decided that the Shuttle was going to be the transportation system of the future, they redesigned the Station during that initial study and made it into a modular space station, which is the predecessor of what we have today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your role in participating in Space Station? Were you there to give the astronauts’ perspective?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.794439016521665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First thing I started to work on was Space Station, believe it or not. [Bergen laughs] Not Skylab, but Space Station. And after the Apollo Program, there was a group that got together, a high-level group, and decided that the United States should have two things: one was the Space Station, and, two, was a way to easily get in and out of space, and that was the Space Shuttle.\\n\\n And so it became evident rather quickly that they didn’t have money to do both of those, and so they focused on the Space Shuttle, because you couldn’t do a station without a shuttle.\\n\\n So they did turn the Station around a little. They had talked about launching a station on top of a Saturn [rocket], and when they decided that the Shuttle was going to be the transportation system of the future, they redesigned the Station during that initial study and made it into a modular space station, which is the predecessor of what we have today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your role in participating in Space Station? Were you there to give the astronauts’ perspective?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. And that didn’t last for too long. The next thing was I was involved in a program called SMEAT, the Skylab Medical Experiments Altitude Test. I can remember I was out in California and was called, and they said, “We drew straws, and you won and you’re gonna go to SMEAT.”\\n\\n I didn’t even know what SMEAT was. [Bergen laughs] And so that took about a year of time, all the preparations for that and then the execution of that and then the follow-up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seemed like it was almost on par with doing a mission, because it was—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, except we were—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re on the ground."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.54937668502407, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. And that didn’t last for too long. The next thing was I was involved in a program called SMEAT, the Skylab Medical Experiments Altitude Test. I can remember I was out in California and was called, and they said, “We drew straws, and you won and you’re gonna go to SMEAT.”\\n\\n I didn’t even know what SMEAT was. [Bergen laughs] And so that took about a year of time, all the preparations for that and then the execution of that and then the follow-up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seemed like it was almost on par with doing a mission, because it was—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, except we were—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re on the ground."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. [Bergen laughs] We tried to do as much as we could to make it be like a real mission. There were some things, obviously, we couldn’t do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of training did you have to do to prepare for this?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 35.33061810534314, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have a tooth pulled, yes. Now I’m not sure, since we were on the ground, they’d make us pull each other’s teeth, but certainly if you were in orbit, that was a consideration. If you said, “This tooth hurts,” and somebody looked at it, and they knew that that one had problems in the past, you may consider that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During that course of fifty-six days that you were in that enclosed environment, what were some of the things that you did while you were in there that really stand out in your memory from that time period?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, we’d perform the medical experiments on the same schedule as they worked for Skylab. We worked together as a team and with the ground, found little things that were wrong with the Skylab either equipment or processes or procedures that we critiqued and they straightened out later for Skylab.\\n\\n It was a long time, but it was easy, and it seemed to pass rather quickly. I’m not sure if at the end of fifty-seven days if somebody had said, “Would you like to go for another fifty-seven?” that I would have volunteered, but, you know, generally, I think that the feeling that I had through most of it was that you’re working, you’ve got a job to do, and there was even times you worried if we’d get it all done in the time that we had available."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know you wrote a detailed report about all the specific experiments you did and the problems that you had. Did you have a chance, either formally or informally, to talk to the Skylab astronauts to share your experiences with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Sure. And there were a couple of those that were kind of a liaison with us, so they took the lessons that we had and took them into Skylab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any things in particular that you shared with them that you thought was really important for them to keep in mind on this long mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 26.6728011520525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they took us around over there. We saw a lot. We tried to take them around over here and show them a lot. Neither of us had had the opportunity to see those sorts of things before. Like I said, I’m sure we were the first Americans down at Kazakhstan down at the launch site and probably lots of other places as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the irony of the fact that you were a fighter pilot, you know, who trained most of your career to view them as the enemy, and here you were working together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Yes. But that was the start."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what benefit do you think that the Apollo-Soyuz Program had for NASA and for our country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it started cooperative space ventures between the countries, and perhaps helped them to learn to get along a little better together, which is still evolving now with the Space Station. You know, it’s a tough thing to take two very, very capable and arrogant organizations and try to make it together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Especially when you have such different cultural and language obstacles to compound the situation even more. So it was a pretty amazing feat, especially at the time. That’s why it must have been very exciting to be part of that.\\n\\n When you finished with your participation in the Apollo-Soyuz Program, what did you do next?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.858667946725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Yes. But that was the start."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what benefit do you think that the Apollo-Soyuz Program had for NASA and for our country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it started cooperative space ventures between the countries, and perhaps helped them to learn to get along a little better together, which is still evolving now with the Space Station. You know, it’s a tough thing to take two very, very capable and arrogant organizations and try to make it together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Especially when you have such different cultural and language obstacles to compound the situation even more. So it was a pretty amazing feat, especially at the time. That’s why it must have been very exciting to be part of that.\\n\\n When you finished with your participation in the Apollo-Soyuz Program, what did you do next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, one of the other things that I was involved in was the tests [Approach and Landing Tests, ALT] out at Edwards [Air Force Base, California] of the Shuttle and of the Enterprise, and so we worked for some time trying to get that all together. You said CapCom a couple of times. I had been CapCom on the Apollo-Soyuz. And then I was CapCom every other mission for the drop tests of the Shuttle off of the 747.\\n\\n And then on the other side of that, I was flying the chase airplane alongside the 747 and the Shuttle. So that took quite some time. I don’t remember exactly how long we worked on that, but I’ll guess it was probably close to a year or two, you know, by the time we set it up and did all the training out there at Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you actually participate in some of the training or what other activities? You said you were CapCom and you flew the chase plane. Were there other activities you actually participated in, in those tests?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.287408829694442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it started cooperative space ventures between the countries, and perhaps helped them to learn to get along a little better together, which is still evolving now with the Space Station. You know, it’s a tough thing to take two very, very capable and arrogant organizations and try to make it together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Especially when you have such different cultural and language obstacles to compound the situation even more. So it was a pretty amazing feat, especially at the time. That’s why it must have been very exciting to be part of that.\\n\\n When you finished with your participation in the Apollo-Soyuz Program, what did you do next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, one of the other things that I was involved in was the tests [Approach and Landing Tests, ALT] out at Edwards [Air Force Base, California] of the Shuttle and of the Enterprise, and so we worked for some time trying to get that all together. You said CapCom a couple of times. I had been CapCom on the Apollo-Soyuz. And then I was CapCom every other mission for the drop tests of the Shuttle off of the 747.\\n\\n And then on the other side of that, I was flying the chase airplane alongside the 747 and the Shuttle. So that took quite some time. I don’t remember exactly how long we worked on that, but I’ll guess it was probably close to a year or two, you know, by the time we set it up and did all the training out there at Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you actually participate in some of the training or what other activities? You said you were CapCom and you flew the chase plane. Were there other activities you actually participated in, in those tests?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole team worked to get the tests ready to go, figure out exactly what was going to happen, do all the things that were necessary, precede the tests."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there anything in those tests that really surprised people?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 27.515319542832643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole team worked to get the tests ready to go, figure out exactly what was going to happen, do all the things that were necessary, precede the tests."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there anything in those tests that really surprised people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. You know, the tests pointed out the viability of the Shuttle as a landing aircraft. We designed some of the things such as how the approach would actually be made in the Shuttle even before that started on that, and worked on items such as if we landed on a lakebed runway, was that adequate for a shuttle to land on?\\n\\n You know, I can remember going through quite an exercise there. Using radar to look underneath the lakebed surface to see if there were any voids the Shuttle might fall through, because there are holes that appear out in the Edwards lakebed, and that’s water that runs down and causes the holes to appear. And so we were looking at what the geology was underneath.\\n\\n That was all just part of getting those tests together. The tests were challenging. I mean, the Shuttle and flying with a T-38 alongside the Shuttle was interesting, the two rather different airplanes. [Bergen laughs]\\n\\n And the slow-speed Shuttle tests, you’d have the gear down, and you’d be even shaking the stick to try to get a little bit more drag into the T-38 to have it not overrun the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "New and different challenges every time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the Shuttle had been tested and it was finally ready to do the first launch, STS-1, you were in charge of the equipment checkout and testing. Is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.251363424527726, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you know, a bottle of water. Well, what do you need if you have a bottle of water? You need a bottle for urine, right? [Laughter] And, you know, some food and procedures and just lots of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to prepare for the long day ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, which wasn’t supposed to be a long day, but it certainly turned out to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you got into it, did you just kept seeing the complexities of it and more and more things that needed to be addressed that hadn’t been thought of before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You know, basically, down at the Cape, there was a lot of testing that had to take place, and that was all done under the umbrella of the tiles, and they had a lot of problems with the tiles, but just, you know, setting up. Well, what does a launch count look like, you know? And I was the crew participant on that. You know, what should the astronauts do when they get down to the Cape?\\n\\n You know, and there was another gentleman by the name of Rick Nagano [phonetic] and myself sat down and talked about that for a couple of days and came up with a basic structure of, well, they’re probably going to want to fly the Shuttle training aircraft. Well, we probably should have an alternate day that they can fly the Shuttle training aircraft. So that says they’ve got to come down a couple of days ahead of time. They’re going to want weather briefings about the weather. You know, they’re going to want briefings on the condition of the count and the condition of the Shuttle and the conditions of the payloads, and, you know, etc., etc.\\n\\n So there were lots of things like that to be laid out and gotten ready for the first Shuttle’s flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you basically given charge of these activities, or were you simply a crew participant in all these activities?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.460032132411148, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Usually, I was a crew participant in one of the Cape activities. They’d be coming up and doing a new test, and a lot of the guys at the Cape knew—I mean, they could tell you down to a thousandth of an inch what this piece of machinery looked like, but a lot of them didn’t know what it did. When you conduct a test, you’re very interested in making sure that you test it in the operational mode in which it’s going to be used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you kind of help put all the pieces of the puzzle together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I typically had—well, started out with a couple, and then we got up to, like, four or five guys, four or five astronauts that were working for me that were down there helping all around the Cape."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lots of work to do before this new system goes into space."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you watch the launch?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.955591258234609, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I typically had—well, started out with a couple, and then we got up to, like, four or five guys, four or five astronauts that were working for me that were down there helping all around the Cape."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lots of work to do before this new system goes into space."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you watch the launch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, tears rolled down my eyes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet that was exciting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.506212509149566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you watch the launch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, tears rolled down my eyes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet that was exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you find out that you were going to be a pilot on the STS-6?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.1180138990550725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, tears rolled down my eyes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet that was exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you find out that you were going to be a pilot on the STS-6?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don’t remember the date. Either shortly after or maybe even before I came back from the Cape. I don’t remember exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure you were excited when you finally—you’d been with NASA for—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.797793221172302, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you find out that you were going to be a pilot on the STS-6?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don’t remember the date. Either shortly after or maybe even before I came back from the Cape. I don’t remember exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure you were excited when you finally—you’d been with NASA for—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Forever, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About ten years, I think, when—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.553103579080336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don’t remember the date. Either shortly after or maybe even before I came back from the Cape. I don’t remember exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure you were excited when you finally—you’d been with NASA for—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Forever, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About ten years, I think, when—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "More than that, yes. [Bergen laughs] There was times I felt that I was a cosine wave in a sine-wave world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that because of the class you were in, with the astronauts that were in, that you were so low on the totem pole?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.17011508786704, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Forever, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About ten years, I think, when—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "More than that, yes. [Bergen laughs] There was times I felt that I was a cosine wave in a sine-wave world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that because of the class you were in, with the astronauts that were in, that you were so low on the totem pole?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no. I mean, the MOL guys got here, and the Apollo Program and the Skylab Program both just started to ramp down very quickly. NASA didn’t fund them, and so they ramped down. And then the Shuttle Program was supposed to be ready much sooner than it was, and it took a lot longer to finally get into development and then to actually develop, and so it just took a long time. But there wasn’t much fly—I mean, the Apollo-Soyuz was the only flight between Skylab and the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were patient and waited out till you got there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.855683430963378, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More than that, yes. [Bergen laughs] There was times I felt that I was a cosine wave in a sine-wave world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that because of the class you were in, with the astronauts that were in, that you were so low on the totem pole?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no. I mean, the MOL guys got here, and the Apollo Program and the Skylab Program both just started to ramp down very quickly. NASA didn’t fund them, and so they ramped down. And then the Shuttle Program was supposed to be ready much sooner than it was, and it took a lot longer to finally get into development and then to actually develop, and so it just took a long time. But there wasn’t much fly—I mean, the Apollo-Soyuz was the only flight between Skylab and the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were patient and waited out till you got there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had interesting things to do. You know, it wasn’t a drudgery job. There were things like SMEAT or working with the Russians or the testing of the Shuttle. Yes, there were interesting things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you’re finally put on a crew. How did this change what you did? You started preparing for your mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 7.617426034403753, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no. I mean, the MOL guys got here, and the Apollo Program and the Skylab Program both just started to ramp down very quickly. NASA didn’t fund them, and so they ramped down. And then the Shuttle Program was supposed to be ready much sooner than it was, and it took a lot longer to finally get into development and then to actually develop, and so it just took a long time. But there wasn’t much fly—I mean, the Apollo-Soyuz was the only flight between Skylab and the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were patient and waited out till you got there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had interesting things to do. You know, it wasn’t a drudgery job. There were things like SMEAT or working with the Russians or the testing of the Shuttle. Yes, there were interesting things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you’re finally put on a crew. How did this change what you did? You started preparing for your mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It changes your outlook a lot. You know, you’ve got to do it. And so it just changes the way you look at things. It’s not some thing out there in the mist; it’s up close and personal. So I think, you know, there’s a lot to be learned for a space flight, and it doesn’t seem like there’s ever enough time. You feel you want to learn it all, and it gives you a lot of incentive to work hard and try to learn as much as you can and get things as squared away as you can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us what a pilot does on a Shuttle mission as opposed to some other member of the crew. I mean, obviously, you fly the Shuttle."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.019362260448615, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had interesting things to do. You know, it wasn’t a drudgery job. There were things like SMEAT or working with the Russians or the testing of the Shuttle. Yes, there were interesting things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you’re finally put on a crew. How did this change what you did? You started preparing for your mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It changes your outlook a lot. You know, you’ve got to do it. And so it just changes the way you look at things. It’s not some thing out there in the mist; it’s up close and personal. So I think, you know, there’s a lot to be learned for a space flight, and it doesn’t seem like there’s ever enough time. You feel you want to learn it all, and it gives you a lot of incentive to work hard and try to learn as much as you can and get things as squared away as you can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us what a pilot does on a Shuttle mission as opposed to some other member of the crew. I mean, obviously, you fly the Shuttle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, you fly it a little, but mainly you’re a systems operator. So you’ve got the reaction control system and the engine system and the electrical system and all those systems that have to be operated to keep the Shuttle going correctly. And then if you’re doing something such as a rendezvous, you’re typically an assistant helping to get that accomplished.\\n\\n And then there is some flying, mainly on orbit. There’s, of course, usually no flying going into space. There’s a little bit on orbit. And usually the commander’s the one that actually lands the airplane.\\n\\n And things like on my first flight, it was the first time people had gone EVA [Extra Vehicular Activity], and so I had the responsibility of putting Story [F. Story Musgrave] and Don [Donald H. Peterson] into their suits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even though this was the STS-6, you had a lot of firsts on this mission: the first EVA, the first-time Challenger."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.354846956054017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It changes your outlook a lot. You know, you’ve got to do it. And so it just changes the way you look at things. It’s not some thing out there in the mist; it’s up close and personal. So I think, you know, there’s a lot to be learned for a space flight, and it doesn’t seem like there’s ever enough time. You feel you want to learn it all, and it gives you a lot of incentive to work hard and try to learn as much as you can and get things as squared away as you can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us what a pilot does on a Shuttle mission as opposed to some other member of the crew. I mean, obviously, you fly the Shuttle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, you fly it a little, but mainly you’re a systems operator. So you’ve got the reaction control system and the engine system and the electrical system and all those systems that have to be operated to keep the Shuttle going correctly. And then if you’re doing something such as a rendezvous, you’re typically an assistant helping to get that accomplished.\\n\\n And then there is some flying, mainly on orbit. There’s, of course, usually no flying going into space. There’s a little bit on orbit. And usually the commander’s the one that actually lands the airplane.\\n\\n And things like on my first flight, it was the first time people had gone EVA [Extra Vehicular Activity], and so I had the responsibility of putting Story [F. Story Musgrave] and Don [Donald H. Peterson] into their suits."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even though this was the STS-6, you had a lot of firsts on this mission: the first EVA, the first-time Challenger."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, first flight of Challenger. First lightweight tank. Okay, we launched the big first satellite, the TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite-1]. Yes, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of firsts. What was it like when you watched the first EVA of the Shuttle Program? Did you have apprehensions about this?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.1417863654987865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure, first flight of Challenger. First lightweight tank. Okay, we launched the big first satellite, the TDRS [Tracking and Data Relay Satellite-1]. Yes, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of firsts. What was it like when you watched the first EVA of the Shuttle Program? Did you have apprehensions about this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think so. You know, everything had gone well. Both Story and Don were well trained. I think we all, you know—they looked forward to it. They came back exhilarated after they came back.\\n\\n My responsibility was getting them into the suits, which is not a small responsibility. I mean, you’re putting them into their own little spacesuit or spacecraft. You know, it provides power and atmosphere and communications and meteoroid protection. It does everything. So it’s kind of like launching a small satellite, except it’s got a man in it.\\n\\n But that went well. It was interesting to take photographs of them out there in the payload bay. It looks different when you’re up in space and have somebody, one of your friends floating around back there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said you were responsible for putting them into their spacesuit. Did you discover any problems with that? I mean, you practiced on the ground."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it’s probably different in space."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.601984850554207, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think so. You know, everything had gone well. Both Story and Don were well trained. I think we all, you know—they looked forward to it. They came back exhilarated after they came back.\\n\\n My responsibility was getting them into the suits, which is not a small responsibility. I mean, you’re putting them into their own little spacesuit or spacecraft. You know, it provides power and atmosphere and communications and meteoroid protection. It does everything. So it’s kind of like launching a small satellite, except it’s got a man in it.\\n\\n But that went well. It was interesting to take photographs of them out there in the payload bay. It looks different when you’re up in space and have somebody, one of your friends floating around back there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said you were responsible for putting them into their spacesuit. Did you discover any problems with that? I mean, you practiced on the ground."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it’s probably different in space."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little. Sure, but it went well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since this was the first flight of Challenger, were there extra things that you had to do during this mission to check out the spacecraft or anything of that nature?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.1133165006157855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it’s probably different in space."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little. Sure, but it went well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since this was the first flight of Challenger, were there extra things that you had to do during this mission to check out the spacecraft or anything of that nature?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were a few small things, nothing of any great magnitude. You know, it was also the first flight of the HUD, the heads-up display, which I had on my side. And then there were little experiments and things that we had to check out the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My research show that there was some kind of problem with the guidance computer. Do you remember anything about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.6814627784619836, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little. Sure, but it went well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since this was the first flight of Challenger, were there extra things that you had to do during this mission to check out the spacecraft or anything of that nature?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were a few small things, nothing of any great magnitude. You know, it was also the first flight of the HUD, the heads-up display, which I had on my side. And then there were little experiments and things that we had to check out the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My research show that there was some kind of problem with the guidance computer. Do you remember anything about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that all about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.201625309402203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were a few small things, nothing of any great magnitude. You know, it was also the first flight of the HUD, the heads-up display, which I had on my side. And then there were little experiments and things that we had to check out the spacecraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My research show that there was some kind of problem with the guidance computer. Do you remember anything about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that all about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It failed, but we were on orbit, and the shuttle is—the Shuttle, unlike the Station on orbit, is very benign. It doesn’t take computers to keep it running. So it failed, and we were able to go through the whole procedure and bring it back up, change it to basically another position. When you fly the Shuttle, you have four computers and a fifth which is a backup, and those four computers have what are called strings, so each computer has different things that are hooked to it that it commands, and some of those strings are more important to it than others, so we took this computer and put it on one of the less important strings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you got everything back up and—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.77958367711356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that all about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It failed, but we were on orbit, and the shuttle is—the Shuttle, unlike the Station on orbit, is very benign. It doesn’t take computers to keep it running. So it failed, and we were able to go through the whole procedure and bring it back up, change it to basically another position. When you fly the Shuttle, you have four computers and a fifth which is a backup, and those four computers have what are called strings, so each computer has different things that are hooked to it that it commands, and some of those strings are more important to it than others, so we took this computer and put it on one of the less important strings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you got everything back up and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything was back and working, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That had to give you confidence in the procedures that had been developed and making sure everything was going to run properly."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.421759641237288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It failed, but we were on orbit, and the shuttle is—the Shuttle, unlike the Station on orbit, is very benign. It doesn’t take computers to keep it running. So it failed, and we were able to go through the whole procedure and bring it back up, change it to basically another position. When you fly the Shuttle, you have four computers and a fifth which is a backup, and those four computers have what are called strings, so each computer has different things that are hooked to it that it commands, and some of those strings are more important to it than others, so we took this computer and put it on one of the less important strings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you got everything back up and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything was back and working, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That had to give you confidence in the procedures that had been developed and making sure everything was going to run properly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well, we had been through those procedures, you know, of, maybe not exactly that, but certainly something very similar before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your landing on that mission. It looks like that that was where the lakebed had been flooded."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.024177379152542, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything was back and working, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That had to give you confidence in the procedures that had been developed and making sure everything was going to run properly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well, we had been through those procedures, you know, of, maybe not exactly that, but certainly something very similar before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your landing on that mission. It looks like that that was where the lakebed had been flooded."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so we landed on Runway 2-2 at Edwards. You know, it’s a big runway. There wasn’t anything that was really surprising about it. We just landed on the solid surface, or on the concrete runway, rather than landing on the lakebed. If the lakebed is dry, it gives you a little more latitude. You know, it’s got very large runways, but, luckily, on this flight, nothing was wrong, so we didn’t have to take that extra margin in any way. Landing on the concrete was just fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned that you had deployed the first large satellite. Did you have any particular responsibilities in that deployment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.693530421280602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well, we had been through those procedures, you know, of, maybe not exactly that, but certainly something very similar before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your landing on that mission. It looks like that that was where the lakebed had been flooded."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so we landed on Runway 2-2 at Edwards. You know, it’s a big runway. There wasn’t anything that was really surprising about it. We just landed on the solid surface, or on the concrete runway, rather than landing on the lakebed. If the lakebed is dry, it gives you a little more latitude. You know, it’s got very large runways, but, luckily, on this flight, nothing was wrong, so we didn’t have to take that extra margin in any way. Landing on the concrete was just fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned that you had deployed the first large satellite. Did you have any particular responsibilities in that deployment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, basically I was responsible for the attitude of the Shuttle, making sure it maneuvered to the right positions and keeping track of all the systems again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything unusual that happened or anything new that you learned that you weren’t necessarily—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.437256023645114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so we landed on Runway 2-2 at Edwards. You know, it’s a big runway. There wasn’t anything that was really surprising about it. We just landed on the solid surface, or on the concrete runway, rather than landing on the lakebed. If the lakebed is dry, it gives you a little more latitude. You know, it’s got very large runways, but, luckily, on this flight, nothing was wrong, so we didn’t have to take that extra margin in any way. Landing on the concrete was just fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned that you had deployed the first large satellite. Did you have any particular responsibilities in that deployment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, basically I was responsible for the attitude of the Shuttle, making sure it maneuvered to the right positions and keeping track of all the systems again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything unusual that happened or anything new that you learned that you weren’t necessarily—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I learned how big it was when it came out, you know. [Bergen laughs] I was up in the front in the pilot seat and the two guys were back there, and, you know, both of them said something like, “Oh, my God,” when this big, you know, big satellite came out. It’s ejected so that it comes kind of over the cockpit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they had some problems with that satellite, but it wasn’t anything that you were responsible for."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.263617804050126, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, basically I was responsible for the attitude of the Shuttle, making sure it maneuvered to the right positions and keeping track of all the systems again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything unusual that happened or anything new that you learned that you weren’t necessarily—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I learned how big it was when it came out, you know. [Bergen laughs] I was up in the front in the pilot seat and the two guys were back there, and, you know, both of them said something like, “Oh, my God,” when this big, you know, big satellite came out. It’s ejected so that it comes kind of over the cockpit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they had some problems with that satellite, but it wasn’t anything that you were responsible for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. And, luckily, they had planned to use the satellite for commercial purposes as well as NASA, and it was decided not to do that, but they didn’t make that decision in time to take off some of the extra fuel that was required for using the satellite commercially, and so that fuel was available, and, luckily, that was what saved the satellite later. They were able to use that fuel to get in the right orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.181797560055696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I learned how big it was when it came out, you know. [Bergen laughs] I was up in the front in the pilot seat and the two guys were back there, and, you know, both of them said something like, “Oh, my God,” when this big, you know, big satellite came out. It’s ejected so that it comes kind of over the cockpit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they had some problems with that satellite, but it wasn’t anything that you were responsible for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. And, luckily, they had planned to use the satellite for commercial purposes as well as NASA, and it was decided not to do that, but they didn’t make that decision in time to take off some of the extra fuel that was required for using the satellite commercially, and so that fuel was available, and, luckily, that was what saved the satellite later. They were able to use that fuel to get in the right orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes things that appear negative initially turn out for the positive, and that’s always good.\\n\\n Is there anything else about that mission that you want to share that we might not have covered?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.09088617783966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. And, luckily, they had planned to use the satellite for commercial purposes as well as NASA, and it was decided not to do that, but they didn’t make that decision in time to take off some of the extra fuel that was required for using the satellite commercially, and so that fuel was available, and, luckily, that was what saved the satellite later. They were able to use that fuel to get in the right orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that’s good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes things that appear negative initially turn out for the positive, and that’s always good.\\n\\n Is there anything else about that mission that you want to share that we might not have covered?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you know, space flight’s exciting. Especially your first flight is always exciting. You never know quite what to expect. People tell you the stories about what it’s like, but it’s hard to really appreciate it till you’ve been there.\\n\\n So, the launch is quick and dynamic. There’s a tremendous power learned, you know, on orbit looking back on the Earth. I came back and it was decided that I would investigate ways to make my Earth observations better, and so I had studied for my next missions to be able to do that.\\n\\n Just learned about the Shuttle, of course, and about the landing. I mean, when you come back into the atmosphere, things like—during the dark time of your approach, what happens is that the plasma sheath around the Shuttle will recombine over the top, and there’s this big tongue of flame that’s over the top of the Shuttle following you down, and just lots of other things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said after you came back you decided to study to make your Earth observations, improve your Earth observations. Was that something you decided to do personally, or why did you make that decision?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.100984642044066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes things that appear negative initially turn out for the positive, and that’s always good.\\n\\n Is there anything else about that mission that you want to share that we might not have covered?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you know, space flight’s exciting. Especially your first flight is always exciting. You never know quite what to expect. People tell you the stories about what it’s like, but it’s hard to really appreciate it till you’ve been there.\\n\\n So, the launch is quick and dynamic. There’s a tremendous power learned, you know, on orbit looking back on the Earth. I came back and it was decided that I would investigate ways to make my Earth observations better, and so I had studied for my next missions to be able to do that.\\n\\n Just learned about the Shuttle, of course, and about the landing. I mean, when you come back into the atmosphere, things like—during the dark time of your approach, what happens is that the plasma sheath around the Shuttle will recombine over the top, and there’s this big tongue of flame that’s over the top of the Shuttle following you down, and just lots of other things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said after you came back you decided to study to make your Earth observations, improve your Earth observations. Was that something you decided to do personally, or why did you make that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I didn’t think that we—certainly, I didn’t have it all pulled together as to how this would all look, and so I just kind of pulled together myself thoughts and ways to look at the Earth, and, afterwards, I gave some of the newer astronauts lectures on that. But once you’ve been there, you think, “Well, hmm, I should have thought of this in a different way,” and once you do, it makes it easier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us some example of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.248129187708724, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I didn’t think that we—certainly, I didn’t have it all pulled together as to how this would all look, and so I just kind of pulled together myself thoughts and ways to look at the Earth, and, afterwards, I gave some of the newer astronauts lectures on that. But once you’ve been there, you think, “Well, hmm, I should have thought of this in a different way,” and once you do, it makes it easier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us some example of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve seen the charts with the white lines on it, like that, that display the orbits?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t like to think of that as where you’re going to be over the ground. I like to think of an orbit in space and the earth underneath it rotating. Okay? And so now, you know, once a day, the Earth, like the landing site, comes under that plain of the orbit. Or if you think about the sun, if you think of, what is the lighting like, when you look at the chart with these things doing that, the orbits looking like that, it’s hard to figure out what the lighting is.\\n\\n If you think about, say, if you’re the sun and here’s my orbit, okay, it’s easy to see there that this side of the orbit is going to be illuminated, and this side of the orbit’s going to be dark. Okay. And that if I’m in an orbit going this way, each descending note is going to be in the daytime, and each ascending note is going to be at night. And it’s just things like that, you know, that I thought made it easier for me on later flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to kind of change your perspective on what you’re doing."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.38681020856525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve seen the charts with the white lines on it, like that, that display the orbits?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t like to think of that as where you’re going to be over the ground. I like to think of an orbit in space and the earth underneath it rotating. Okay? And so now, you know, once a day, the Earth, like the landing site, comes under that plain of the orbit. Or if you think about the sun, if you think of, what is the lighting like, when you look at the chart with these things doing that, the orbits looking like that, it’s hard to figure out what the lighting is.\\n\\n If you think about, say, if you’re the sun and here’s my orbit, okay, it’s easy to see there that this side of the orbit is going to be illuminated, and this side of the orbit’s going to be dark. Okay. And that if I’m in an orbit going this way, each descending note is going to be in the daytime, and each ascending note is going to be at night. And it’s just things like that, you know, that I thought made it easier for me on later flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to kind of change your perspective on what you’re doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That makes a lot of sense."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.652011342850276, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t like to think of that as where you’re going to be over the ground. I like to think of an orbit in space and the earth underneath it rotating. Okay? And so now, you know, once a day, the Earth, like the landing site, comes under that plain of the orbit. Or if you think about the sun, if you think of, what is the lighting like, when you look at the chart with these things doing that, the orbits looking like that, it’s hard to figure out what the lighting is.\\n\\n If you think about, say, if you’re the sun and here’s my orbit, okay, it’s easy to see there that this side of the orbit is going to be illuminated, and this side of the orbit’s going to be dark. Okay. And that if I’m in an orbit going this way, each descending note is going to be in the daytime, and each ascending note is going to be at night. And it’s just things like that, you know, that I thought made it easier for me on later flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to kind of change your perspective on what you’re doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That makes a lot of sense."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like if you’re trying to figure out, “Well, if I’m in this orbit, where’s the sun going to be?” Well, if I look at the orbits on the chart, it’s usually pretty hard to figure that out. If I think of it in this sense, it’s much easier to figure out where the sun is going to be. Is there going to be —you glint off the ocean is going to blind me? Well, depends on where the sun’s going to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you try to work with some of the geologists and oceanographers and things like that to help you with your Earth observation improvements that you’d hoped to make?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.05779038094475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That makes a lot of sense."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like if you’re trying to figure out, “Well, if I’m in this orbit, where’s the sun going to be?” Well, if I look at the orbits on the chart, it’s usually pretty hard to figure that out. If I think of it in this sense, it’s much easier to figure out where the sun is going to be. Is there going to be —you glint off the ocean is going to blind me? Well, depends on where the sun’s going to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you try to work with some of the geologists and oceanographers and things like that to help you with your Earth observation improvements that you’d hoped to make?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, most of the geologists are thinking about it from a ground perspective. Okay? And, you know, they’re not necessarily thinking about things such as, “Okay, when I’m coming up to this thing, on this orbit, what’s the approach path going to be, and what’s maybe something before that’s easily identified that I can use as an initial point to help me find my target?” Most of them didn’t have that perspective on it, and so those were the kinds of things that I try to think of myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure that was beneficial to other astronauts to come later to have that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.61976708993861, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like if you’re trying to figure out, “Well, if I’m in this orbit, where’s the sun going to be?” Well, if I look at the orbits on the chart, it’s usually pretty hard to figure that out. If I think of it in this sense, it’s much easier to figure out where the sun is going to be. Is there going to be —you glint off the ocean is going to blind me? Well, depends on where the sun’s going to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you try to work with some of the geologists and oceanographers and things like that to help you with your Earth observation improvements that you’d hoped to make?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, most of the geologists are thinking about it from a ground perspective. Okay? And, you know, they’re not necessarily thinking about things such as, “Okay, when I’m coming up to this thing, on this orbit, what’s the approach path going to be, and what’s maybe something before that’s easily identified that I can use as an initial point to help me find my target?” Most of them didn’t have that perspective on it, and so those were the kinds of things that I try to think of myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure that was beneficial to other astronauts to come later to have that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like I said, I have given a couple of courses. It’s not a big thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I think it’s a very interesting, interesting perspective of things that you don’t normally think about."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.355296766598457, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, most of the geologists are thinking about it from a ground perspective. Okay? And, you know, they’re not necessarily thinking about things such as, “Okay, when I’m coming up to this thing, on this orbit, what’s the approach path going to be, and what’s maybe something before that’s easily identified that I can use as an initial point to help me find my target?” Most of them didn’t have that perspective on it, and so those were the kinds of things that I try to think of myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure that was beneficial to other astronauts to come later to have that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like I said, I have given a couple of courses. It’s not a big thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I think it’s a very interesting, interesting perspective of things that you don’t normally think about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s great.\\n\\n So your next mission was STS-51E, which had changed names and—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 18.172551962887173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like I said, I have given a couple of courses. It’s not a big thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I think it’s a very interesting, interesting perspective of things that you don’t normally think about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that’s great.\\n\\n So your next mission was STS-51E, which had changed names and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mary Lee used to be the lady that arranged the patches, and along the top of her office she had different plaques with all the different patches, and then you got to a corner, and there were four of them, which were all for that mission or its derivatives. [Bergen laughs] Okay? As a matter of fact, I’ve got a plaque which has the four patches on it. I could show them to you, but it would be hard to tell the difference, but little things always changed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you take us through that transition?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.284014524448002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It came together, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It shows also how adaptable humans can be in space."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s great.\\n\\n So did you have Senator Garn on that mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he did fly that mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.315571693831114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s great.\\n\\n So did you have Senator Garn on that mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he did fly that mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jake was on that flight, and he was also going to be on the flight before. Yes.\\n\\n George [W. S.] Abbey said to me one day, he said, “What sort of training program would you have if you had a new passenger that was only going to have eight or twelve weeks?”\\n\\n I said, “Why are you asking me that question?” [Laughter]\\n\\n He said, “Because you’ve got a new passenger, and you’ve only got—,” I don’t know, ten or twelve weeks to flight.\\n\\n So, basically, what I had done was there was Mike [Michael J.] Smith, who was later killed in the Challenger accident [51-L], had been brought up to speed, because they thought that one of the astronauts, Loren [J.] Shriver, might have been exposed to measles, I think it was. And so they had given him extra training so to make him ready, and then he didn’t have a flight. So he took Jake under his arm and got him ready so that it was easy to integrate him into the crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been interesting to have a senator."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.350635215367904, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he did fly that mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jake was on that flight, and he was also going to be on the flight before. Yes.\\n\\n George [W. S.] Abbey said to me one day, he said, “What sort of training program would you have if you had a new passenger that was only going to have eight or twelve weeks?”\\n\\n I said, “Why are you asking me that question?” [Laughter]\\n\\n He said, “Because you’ve got a new passenger, and you’ve only got—,” I don’t know, ten or twelve weeks to flight.\\n\\n So, basically, what I had done was there was Mike [Michael J.] Smith, who was later killed in the Challenger accident [51-L], had been brought up to speed, because they thought that one of the astronauts, Loren [J.] Shriver, might have been exposed to measles, I think it was. And so they had given him extra training so to make him ready, and then he didn’t have a flight. So he took Jake under his arm and got him ready so that it was easy to integrate him into the crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been interesting to have a senator."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jake was a great person. He had more flying time than I did. He knew what it was to be a crew member. You know, I’d call him up and I’d say, “Jake, we need you down here.”\\n\\n And he’s say, “Yes, sir,” and he’d be down the next day for the sim [simulation].\\n\\n So, for a mission specialist, he was a great mission specialist. His only problem was that he got very sick on orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever get sick on orbit?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.500705794853227, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jake was on that flight, and he was also going to be on the flight before. Yes.\\n\\n George [W. S.] Abbey said to me one day, he said, “What sort of training program would you have if you had a new passenger that was only going to have eight or twelve weeks?”\\n\\n I said, “Why are you asking me that question?” [Laughter]\\n\\n He said, “Because you’ve got a new passenger, and you’ve only got—,” I don’t know, ten or twelve weeks to flight.\\n\\n So, basically, what I had done was there was Mike [Michael J.] Smith, who was later killed in the Challenger accident [51-L], had been brought up to speed, because they thought that one of the astronauts, Loren [J.] Shriver, might have been exposed to measles, I think it was. And so they had given him extra training so to make him ready, and then he didn’t have a flight. So he took Jake under his arm and got him ready so that it was easy to integrate him into the crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been interesting to have a senator."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jake was a great person. He had more flying time than I did. He knew what it was to be a crew member. You know, I’d call him up and I’d say, “Jake, we need you down here.”\\n\\n And he’s say, “Yes, sir,” and he’d be down the next day for the sim [simulation].\\n\\n So, for a mission specialist, he was a great mission specialist. His only problem was that he got very sick on orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever get sick on orbit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but, you know, Jake got really sick on orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] That’s unfortunate."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.667450883170252, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jake was a great person. He had more flying time than I did. He knew what it was to be a crew member. You know, I’d call him up and I’d say, “Jake, we need you down here.”\\n\\n And he’s say, “Yes, sir,” and he’d be down the next day for the sim [simulation].\\n\\n So, for a mission specialist, he was a great mission specialist. His only problem was that he got very sick on orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever get sick on orbit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but, you know, Jake got really sick on orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] That’s unfortunate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was doing some of these medical experiments, and they find that one of the things that happens is that on orbit, if you get sick, your alimentary canal, your digestive system, seems to close down. So what they had were little microphones on a belt that Jake had strapped to him to see if they could detect the bowel sounds. So the story is—and I haven’t heard it myself—they had me on the microphone saying to Jake, “Jake, you’ve got to get upstairs and let them see you on TV. Otherwise, they’ll think you died and I threw you overboard.” [Laughter]\\n\\n But he was a good sport, and, like I said, he knew what it was to be a crew member, and, of course, he was just an interesting person, having been in the Senate, you know, a different kind of person than we normally rub elbows with over there at NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else about this mission that maybe I didn’t touch on that you’d like to discuss? You were commander for this one, so you actually landed."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.852723203522501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but, you know, Jake got really sick on orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughs] That’s unfortunate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was doing some of these medical experiments, and they find that one of the things that happens is that on orbit, if you get sick, your alimentary canal, your digestive system, seems to close down. So what they had were little microphones on a belt that Jake had strapped to him to see if they could detect the bowel sounds. So the story is—and I haven’t heard it myself—they had me on the microphone saying to Jake, “Jake, you’ve got to get upstairs and let them see you on TV. Otherwise, they’ll think you died and I threw you overboard.” [Laughter]\\n\\n But he was a good sport, and, like I said, he knew what it was to be a crew member, and, of course, he was just an interesting person, having been in the Senate, you know, a different kind of person than we normally rub elbows with over there at NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else about this mission that maybe I didn’t touch on that you’d like to discuss? You were commander for this one, so you actually landed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, during one of those iterations, we were supposed to fly the first auto land. Our motto was, “[Latin phrase], “Look, Ma, no hands.” [Bergen laughs] But that didn’t come to be.\\n\\n But it was an interesting flight. We became a very close crew after training so long together. As it turned it, we were able to meet all the challenges that that mission presented, which were quite a few."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine since you got to land it, you were probably glad that you actually got to land it and didn’t have to use the auto land."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.63299160928704, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, during one of those iterations, we were supposed to fly the first auto land. Our motto was, “[Latin phrase], “Look, Ma, no hands.” [Bergen laughs] But that didn’t come to be.\\n\\n But it was an interesting flight. We became a very close crew after training so long together. As it turned it, we were able to meet all the challenges that that mission presented, which were quite a few."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine since you got to land it, you were probably glad that you actually got to land it and didn’t have to use the auto land."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, sure. Although the auto land was interesting. People say, “Well, you’re going to have to do auto land, so it’ll be a lot easier.”\\n\\n Well, at least from my perspective, I had to define kind of a box of performance in which that during the landing if the auto land system got out of, I’d know that I couldn’t take over from and safely make a landing. So it was a monitoring situation, and during the training, the problem was to try and define how to recognize when the auto system was diverging and not let it get so far that I couldn’t take over and make a safe landing. So it required extra landing training on my part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That makes sense, especially on the first run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they eventually test—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.258879565874487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, sure. Although the auto land was interesting. People say, “Well, you’re going to have to do auto land, so it’ll be a lot easier.”\\n\\n Well, at least from my perspective, I had to define kind of a box of performance in which that during the landing if the auto land system got out of, I’d know that I couldn’t take over from and safely make a landing. So it was a monitoring situation, and during the training, the problem was to try and define how to recognize when the auto system was diverging and not let it get so far that I couldn’t take over and make a safe landing. So it required extra landing training on my part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That makes sense, especially on the first run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they eventually test—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they have never really done an auto, no. What happened was that we were going to land at Edwards for the auto land, because it was the first landing of auto, and we were going to land on a lakebed. And then that flight was canceled and we went to another, and they decided that that flight should go down to the Cape, and then they didn’t want to do an auto land, the first auto land, at the Cape, and so we didn’t do the auto land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was interesting, it sounds like you had a lot of interesting varied training in all that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.732088406527208, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they eventually test—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they have never really done an auto, no. What happened was that we were going to land at Edwards for the auto land, because it was the first landing of auto, and we were going to land on a lakebed. And then that flight was canceled and we went to another, and they decided that that flight should go down to the Cape, and then they didn’t want to do an auto land, the first auto land, at the Cape, and so we didn’t do the auto land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was interesting, it sounds like you had a lot of interesting varied training in all that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure, yes. Let’s see. On that one we had the little toys. Carolyn Sumner [phonetic] came to us and said, “Hey, we’d like to have you guys use toys to demonstrate physical principles.”\\n\\n What they do now is they give the kids—well, they’re on their third or fourth iteration, but they give the kids a bag of toys, let them play with them, and say, “Okay, how would these react in space?” And so then they’d talk about the physics, and then they show pictures of us doing the toys in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What toys did you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.257876007252452, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they have never really done an auto, no. What happened was that we were going to land at Edwards for the auto land, because it was the first landing of auto, and we were going to land on a lakebed. And then that flight was canceled and we went to another, and they decided that that flight should go down to the Cape, and then they didn’t want to do an auto land, the first auto land, at the Cape, and so we didn’t do the auto land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was interesting, it sounds like you had a lot of interesting varied training in all that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure, yes. Let’s see. On that one we had the little toys. Carolyn Sumner [phonetic] came to us and said, “Hey, we’d like to have you guys use toys to demonstrate physical principles.”\\n\\n What they do now is they give the kids—well, they’re on their third or fourth iteration, but they give the kids a bag of toys, let them play with them, and say, “Okay, how would these react in space?” And so then they’d talk about the physics, and then they show pictures of us doing the toys in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What toys did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had the gyroscope. It seems like I had another one. Certainly I had the gyroscope, yes. And we decided, we said—and so NASA public affairs said, “Oh, we can’t have any downlink of this stuff. They’re going to think you guys are playing around in space.” [Bergen laughs]\\n\\n I said, “It won’t last. Okay.” It lasted about a week. [Laughter] And then they decided, “Oh, we’ve got to get downlink of that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It looks like fun playing with toys in space.\n\nIs there anything else about the mission you wanted to mention before we move on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 16.953195563613836, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh sure, yes. Let’s see. On that one we had the little toys. Carolyn Sumner [phonetic] came to us and said, “Hey, we’d like to have you guys use toys to demonstrate physical principles.”\\n\\n What they do now is they give the kids—well, they’re on their third or fourth iteration, but they give the kids a bag of toys, let them play with them, and say, “Okay, how would these react in space?” And so then they’d talk about the physics, and then they show pictures of us doing the toys in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What toys did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had the gyroscope. It seems like I had another one. Certainly I had the gyroscope, yes. And we decided, we said—and so NASA public affairs said, “Oh, we can’t have any downlink of this stuff. They’re going to think you guys are playing around in space.” [Bergen laughs]\\n\\n I said, “It won’t last. Okay.” It lasted about a week. [Laughter] And then they decided, “Oh, we’ve got to get downlink of that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It looks like fun playing with toys in space.\n\nIs there anything else about the mission you wanted to mention before we move on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The crew was—like I said, we spent a lot of time together. We trained for a lot of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was on that crew with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.170217292904262, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had the gyroscope. It seems like I had another one. Certainly I had the gyroscope, yes. And we decided, we said—and so NASA public affairs said, “Oh, we can’t have any downlink of this stuff. They’re going to think you guys are playing around in space.” [Bergen laughs]\\n\\n I said, “It won’t last. Okay.” It lasted about a week. [Laughter] And then they decided, “Oh, we’ve got to get downlink of that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It looks like fun playing with toys in space.\n\nIs there anything else about the mission you wanted to mention before we move on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The crew was—like I said, we spent a lot of time together. We trained for a lot of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was on that crew with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don [Donald E.] Williams was my pilot; [M.] Rhea Seddon, let’s see, I guess she was the second woman; Jeff [Jeffery A.] Hoffman; [S. David] Griggs; and then the two payload specialists were Jake Garn and Charlie [Charles D.] Walker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you all remained fairly close after that since you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 13.522463658782513, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The crew was—like I said, we spent a lot of time together. We trained for a lot of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was on that crew with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don [Donald E.] Williams was my pilot; [M.] Rhea Seddon, let’s see, I guess she was the second woman; Jeff [Jeffery A.] Hoffman; [S. David] Griggs; and then the two payload specialists were Jake Garn and Charlie [Charles D.] Walker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you all remained fairly close after that since you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we see each other, you know, etc."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your next mission was STS-51J, which was a DoD [Department of Defense] mission, so there may not be a whole lot you could tell us about this mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.989580336507409, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the military astronauts are here. They are detailed to NASA. So they’re still military officers while they’re here. They’re just detailed to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn’t have to make any special—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had all this, whatever, security clearances and everything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, security clearances are separate from being with NASA, but I had to have lots of them anyhow, going all the way to back to MOL."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the training for this mission have the same characteristics of the trainings that you had to have for your previous missions? I mean, now this was your third mission, so—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.432867040563787, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nothing, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had all this, whatever, security clearances and everything."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, security clearances are separate from being with NASA, but I had to have lots of them anyhow, going all the way to back to MOL."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the training for this mission have the same characteristics of the trainings that you had to have for your previous missions? I mean, now this was your third mission, so—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, the only problem with that, the basic problem was that the second mission slipped, so it slipped into the training mission, the training time for the third mission. So the crew had to go kind of train without me to start with, and then I joined them later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed that it was interesting that you’d spent over ten years at NASA without flying, and then here you were already on your third flight in just a couple of years, so that must have been exciting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.036518933959762, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, security clearances are separate from being with NASA, but I had to have lots of them anyhow, going all the way to back to MOL."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the training for this mission have the same characteristics of the trainings that you had to have for your previous missions? I mean, now this was your third mission, so—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, the only problem with that, the basic problem was that the second mission slipped, so it slipped into the training mission, the training time for the third mission. So the crew had to go kind of train without me to start with, and then I joined them later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed that it was interesting that you’d spent over ten years at NASA without flying, and then here you were already on your third flight in just a couple of years, so that must have been exciting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well, the second and third mission were pretty close, and, of course, we had gotten to the point on flights before the second mission when we could have actually flown the mission. I mean, we had trained right up until that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t know much about this mission since it’s classified or was classified. Is there anything that you maybe learned from this mission that was different that you can share with us?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 19.869713357658526, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Like I said, I can’t tell you much about the flight, because it may still be classified."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that it being classified made it complicated. Did it make your training for it complicated?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Somebody might be doing an experiment, and he could be working on the experiment out in the open as long as it was away from NASA, but having the experiment associated with that Shuttle flight was the classified part of it. So I couldn’t call a person, because the commander, if I called them, it would give an indication that that experiment was on that Shuttle flight. It may be a very simple experiment of what sort or another."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you able to overcome that by—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you overcame it. It just was a little bit of an additional burden."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A few months after this mission, the Challenger accident occurred. Looking back on that, what kind of effect do you feel that that had on NASA or JSC specifically, but NASA in general?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.296621487057651, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, a little. I got wrapped up with the TAL sites, but I did participate a little with the investigation. It was more things that were happening here rather, and these were periphery to the actual investigation of the accident itself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You received a NASA Exceptional Service Medal for work on getting the Shuttle Program back to flight status. Was this that work that you were talking about that you did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So after Challenger, they said, “We’re going to reevaluate the TAL sites. Who’s been to Africa?”\\n\\n Well, I had been the only guy that been to Africa, so I got sent back. [Laughter] And so we went up and down"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had the qualifications."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.55180165228628, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So after Challenger, they said, “We’re going to reevaluate the TAL sites. Who’s been to Africa?”\\n\\n Well, I had been the only guy that been to Africa, so I got sent back. [Laughter] And so we went up and down"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had the qualifications."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. So went up and down the west coast of Africa looking from TAL sites, from Banjul up through Morocco, you know, all those sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Must have been an interesting experience."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.946446280318089, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So after Challenger, they said, “We’re going to reevaluate the TAL sites. Who’s been to Africa?”\\n\\n Well, I had been the only guy that been to Africa, so I got sent back. [Laughter] And so we went up and down"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had the qualifications."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. So went up and down the west coast of Africa looking from TAL sites, from Banjul up through Morocco, you know, all those sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Must have been an interesting experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of problems did you encounter in doing this work?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.27382920035343, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. So went up and down the west coast of Africa looking from TAL sites, from Banjul up through Morocco, you know, all those sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Must have been an interesting experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of problems did you encounter in doing this work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were looking for a good runway. Found the one we settled on in Morocco was Ben Guerir, and it was an old U.S. Air Force base that had been closed down, and so it was a nice long runway, but the surface had kind of become cracked because it was asphalt, and the volatiles had basically evaporated, and so they needed to add that stuff. There were other things that needed to be added to all the runways, weather reporting, you know, capabilities to store some things, electronic landing aids, a net at the end of the runway to catch the orbiter if it didn’t stop. So there were a number of challenges there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you finished that, is that when you got the position of Assistant for Operations to the Director of Flight Crew Operations?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.74869911150381, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of problems did you encounter in doing this work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were looking for a good runway. Found the one we settled on in Morocco was Ben Guerir, and it was an old U.S. Air Force base that had been closed down, and so it was a nice long runway, but the surface had kind of become cracked because it was asphalt, and the volatiles had basically evaporated, and so they needed to add that stuff. There were other things that needed to be added to all the runways, weather reporting, you know, capabilities to store some things, electronic landing aids, a net at the end of the runway to catch the orbiter if it didn’t stop. So there were a number of challenges there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you finished that, is that when you got the position of Assistant for Operations to the Director of Flight Crew Operations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, that was kind of in the middle of that. As a matter of fact, from that, I was detailed to the program office to help in the development of the landing sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t have much information from the last part of your career with NASA. Is there anything else that you did that was significant that you want to talk about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.165221235004234, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were looking for a good runway. Found the one we settled on in Morocco was Ben Guerir, and it was an old U.S. Air Force base that had been closed down, and so it was a nice long runway, but the surface had kind of become cracked because it was asphalt, and the volatiles had basically evaporated, and so they needed to add that stuff. There were other things that needed to be added to all the runways, weather reporting, you know, capabilities to store some things, electronic landing aids, a net at the end of the runway to catch the orbiter if it didn’t stop. So there were a number of challenges there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you finished that, is that when you got the position of Assistant for Operations to the Director of Flight Crew Operations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, that was kind of in the middle of that. As a matter of fact, from that, I was detailed to the program office to help in the development of the landing sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t have much information from the last part of your career with NASA. Is there anything else that you did that was significant that you want to talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. I mean, I had participated with—oh, there was a gentleman by the name of Thorsen [phonetic], who was in charge of all of the landing sites worldwide, and I helped him try to get the requirements and all the things necessary to get those landing sites up to speed and get the necessary processes in place and decide, for instance—and I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but they were getting a C-130, which is an air force transport, to fly down, which had rescue guys and a medical team on board that would come down to the TAL site and be there in case they landed there, in case they would have any accident, because some of the places that the TAL sites are located have very rudimentary medical capability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had to make contingencies for all the kinds of situations you might entail.\\n\\n Did you mainly work just in that geographical area or did you concern yourself with other ones around the world?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.405801372226927, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, that was kind of in the middle of that. As a matter of fact, from that, I was detailed to the program office to help in the development of the landing sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don’t have much information from the last part of your career with NASA. Is there anything else that you did that was significant that you want to talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. I mean, I had participated with—oh, there was a gentleman by the name of Thorsen [phonetic], who was in charge of all of the landing sites worldwide, and I helped him try to get the requirements and all the things necessary to get those landing sites up to speed and get the necessary processes in place and decide, for instance—and I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but they were getting a C-130, which is an air force transport, to fly down, which had rescue guys and a medical team on board that would come down to the TAL site and be there in case they landed there, in case they would have any accident, because some of the places that the TAL sites are located have very rudimentary medical capability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had to make contingencies for all the kinds of situations you might entail.\\n\\n Did you mainly work just in that geographical area or did you concern yourself with other ones around the world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, some other ones around the world. We activated Hawaii at the time and Hickam [phonetic], but I never got to go to Hickam."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1989 is when you left NASA. Is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.562001524696585, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. I mean, I had participated with—oh, there was a gentleman by the name of Thorsen [phonetic], who was in charge of all of the landing sites worldwide, and I helped him try to get the requirements and all the things necessary to get those landing sites up to speed and get the necessary processes in place and decide, for instance—and I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but they were getting a C-130, which is an air force transport, to fly down, which had rescue guys and a medical team on board that would come down to the TAL site and be there in case they landed there, in case they would have any accident, because some of the places that the TAL sites are located have very rudimentary medical capability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had to make contingencies for all the kinds of situations you might entail.\\n\\n Did you mainly work just in that geographical area or did you concern yourself with other ones around the world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, some other ones around the world. We activated Hawaii at the time and Hickam [phonetic], but I never got to go to Hickam."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1989 is when you left NASA. Is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the end of ’88, the very beginning of ’89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What led you to decide to make that decision to leave NASA and go into the private sector?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.735557249662872, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, some other ones around the world. We activated Hawaii at the time and Hickam [phonetic], but I never got to go to Hickam."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1989 is when you left NASA. Is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the end of ’88, the very beginning of ’89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What led you to decide to make that decision to leave NASA and go into the private sector?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was coming to the end of my air force career and had to do something. So I decided to go into the private sector."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where’d you go when you—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.817285832958746, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the end of ’88, the very beginning of ’89."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What led you to decide to make that decision to leave NASA and go into the private sector?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was coming to the end of my air force career and had to do something. So I decided to go into the private sector."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where’d you go when you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to a company called Booz-Allen & Hamilton, and they had a couple of contracts here associated with Space Station, and so I was the site manager lead here in Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of contracts were they for?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.68587314773194, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was coming to the end of my air force career and had to do something. So I decided to go into the private sector."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where’d you go when you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to a company called Booz-Allen & Hamilton, and they had a couple of contracts here associated with Space Station, and so I was the site manager lead here in Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of contracts were they for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One was for the training systems. It’s now Raytheon that has that contract, but they make the simulators that are required to train the astronauts.\\n\\n And then another one, there was a company which—they had the integration contract for NASA Headquarters, and they had a group here in Houston, and Booz-Allen was part of that team, and so there were people that I had that were working operations questions. And those are probably the two biggest. Then there was also the contract for the mission control center. We had some people working with the development of that, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned simulators. I wanted to ask you how—I forgot to ask you earlier what your impression of the Shuttle trainer was."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.6509701641466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to a company called Booz-Allen & Hamilton, and they had a couple of contracts here associated with Space Station, and so I was the site manager lead here in Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of contracts were they for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One was for the training systems. It’s now Raytheon that has that contract, but they make the simulators that are required to train the astronauts.\\n\\n And then another one, there was a company which—they had the integration contract for NASA Headquarters, and they had a group here in Houston, and Booz-Allen was part of that team, and so there were people that I had that were working operations questions. And those are probably the two biggest. Then there was also the contract for the mission control center. We had some people working with the development of that, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned simulators. I wanted to ask you how—I forgot to ask you earlier what your impression of the Shuttle trainer was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which trainer?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The—what is it, Shuttle aircraft trainer, the one that actually—the airplane that you fly that’s supposed to fly like the Shuttle. How well did you feel that—did that prepare you for actually flying the Shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.501077960162888, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One was for the training systems. It’s now Raytheon that has that contract, but they make the simulators that are required to train the astronauts.\\n\\n And then another one, there was a company which—they had the integration contract for NASA Headquarters, and they had a group here in Houston, and Booz-Allen was part of that team, and so there were people that I had that were working operations questions. And those are probably the two biggest. Then there was also the contract for the mission control center. We had some people working with the development of that, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned simulators. I wanted to ask you how—I forgot to ask you earlier what your impression of the Shuttle trainer was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which trainer?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The—what is it, Shuttle aircraft trainer, the one that actually—the airplane that you fly that’s supposed to fly like the Shuttle. How well did you feel that—did that prepare you for actually flying the Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well. Very well. I think it was on my second flight. I think it was with Don Williams that we were coming around, getting ready to line up, and I said, “Are we in sim yet? Do I have it?” which are the things that you would say if you’re flying the Shuttle training aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it prepared you very well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.445642177958764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which trainer?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The—what is it, Shuttle aircraft trainer, the one that actually—the airplane that you fly that’s supposed to fly like the Shuttle. How well did you feel that—did that prepare you for actually flying the Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well. Very well. I think it was on my second flight. I think it was with Don Williams that we were coming around, getting ready to line up, and I said, “Are we in sim yet? Do I have it?” which are the things that you would say if you’re flying the Shuttle training aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it prepared you very well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after—you’re with Spacehab now."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.495157975509738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well. Very well. I think it was on my second flight. I think it was with Don Williams that we were coming around, getting ready to line up, and I said, “Are we in sim yet? Do I have it?” which are the things that you would say if you’re flying the Shuttle training aircraft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it prepared you very well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after—you’re with Spacehab now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you go there from Booz-Allen?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.550175528344152, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after—you’re with Spacehab now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you go there from Booz-Allen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, about two years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what do you do now at Spacehab?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.555772257215, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, about two years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what do you do now at Spacehab?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am the V.P. [Vice President] for strategic programs. So we’re kind of the think part of the company looking forward. We’re working with NASA. We just put in a proposal, a number of proposals to be working on an altered access to Station task. I don’t know if we’ll get it or not. I imagine that we’ve got a good chance, which would be looking at providing a service to NASA that would transport cargo, process and transport cargo up to Station.\\n\\n Spacehab is a little bit different, you know. Spacehab looks at things from a commercial perspective. As an example, now they have modules that fly in the Shuttle. They’re owned by Spacehab. They’re maintained by Spacehab. When we get the equipment, we get the things that need to be transported to the Shuttle. We do the analysis on them and the packing of them and that module is then taken and put it into the Shuttle and taken up to the Station. So basically NASA has very little oversight about this whole process. It’s a commercial process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I have my time right, I think it’s about time for Jennifer to—it may be a good time for Jennifer to change her tape.\\n\\n Jennifer: We have about ten more minutes.\n\nI just kind of have some general looking-back-on-things sort of questions. Maybe let’s look at some of your—you spent your time at NASA as an astronaut, and when you came in, there was this group of astronauts that had been to the Moon. How did you and your comrades from the MOL Program kind of become part of this group of astronauts? How did you interact with them and did you feel welcome by them or was there somewhat of a—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.72863584135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am the V.P. [Vice President] for strategic programs. So we’re kind of the think part of the company looking forward. We’re working with NASA. We just put in a proposal, a number of proposals to be working on an altered access to Station task. I don’t know if we’ll get it or not. I imagine that we’ve got a good chance, which would be looking at providing a service to NASA that would transport cargo, process and transport cargo up to Station.\\n\\n Spacehab is a little bit different, you know. Spacehab looks at things from a commercial perspective. As an example, now they have modules that fly in the Shuttle. They’re owned by Spacehab. They’re maintained by Spacehab. When we get the equipment, we get the things that need to be transported to the Shuttle. We do the analysis on them and the packing of them and that module is then taken and put it into the Shuttle and taken up to the Station. So basically NASA has very little oversight about this whole process. It’s a commercial process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I have my time right, I think it’s about time for Jennifer to—it may be a good time for Jennifer to change her tape.\\n\\n Jennifer: We have about ten more minutes.\n\nI just kind of have some general looking-back-on-things sort of questions. Maybe let’s look at some of your—you spent your time at NASA as an astronaut, and when you came in, there was this group of astronauts that had been to the Moon. How did you and your comrades from the MOL Program kind of become part of this group of astronauts? How did you interact with them and did you feel welcome by them or was there somewhat of a—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, I thought they treated us fine. We weren’t going to take any of their slots to go to the Moon. We were there, and they could have us help them. We weren’t certainly any threat or any competition at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were just a helpful resource to them by this time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.0318176015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I have my time right, I think it’s about time for Jennifer to—it may be a good time for Jennifer to change her tape.\\n\\n Jennifer: We have about ten more minutes.\n\nI just kind of have some general looking-back-on-things sort of questions. Maybe let’s look at some of your—you spent your time at NASA as an astronaut, and when you came in, there was this group of astronauts that had been to the Moon. How did you and your comrades from the MOL Program kind of become part of this group of astronauts? How did you interact with them and did you feel welcome by them or was there somewhat of a—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, I thought they treated us fine. We weren’t going to take any of their slots to go to the Moon. We were there, and they could have us help them. We weren’t certainly any threat or any competition at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were just a helpful resource to them by this time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s good.\\n\\n You talked earlier about how you were a crew representative in tests and things of that nature. What was the interaction like between the astronaut corps and the engineers and other parts of NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.479797335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, I thought they treated us fine. We weren’t going to take any of their slots to go to the Moon. We were there, and they could have us help them. We weren’t certainly any threat or any competition at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were just a helpful resource to them by this time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s good.\\n\\n You talked earlier about how you were a crew representative in tests and things of that nature. What was the interaction like between the astronaut corps and the engineers and other parts of NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think usually very favorable. Occasionally we’d get into some fights, but that’s true in any development program.\\n\\n But you might be looking at something such as a control system, then they’d want somebody to fly the simulator. And so they’d choose a crew member, obviously, to go fly the simulator, and you might fly, you know, a hundred runs to get some statistical analysis of what this control system change meant. Or you’d be discussing just various things, what the requirements would be to do something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Another thing that astronauts have to deal with is working with PAO [Public Affairs Office] and public relations. How did astronauts, in general, and you, in particular, feel about the public relations aspect of your job as an astronaut?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.935, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think that NASA can probably assign more of the activities to commercial organizations. I mean, certainly Spacehab is doing the job that it’s doing right now with its modules without much government oversight, and that can occur, and I think that Congress is supportive of that.\\n\\n You’ve got to get there if you’re ever going to really open space to the general public. It’s hard to bring passengers, paying passengers, along for the first time, but probably necessary. It’s going to happen eventually. You know, we wouldn’t have all the airplanes flying with all the passengers around the country if we didn’t have passengers at some time on airplanes.\\n\\n And, hopefully, we can go back to the Moon or on to Mars or some other places that are truly exploratory, which private industry is not going to do. Private industry has to have some guaranteed reward for the task that they’re going to take up, and there aren’t any right now that we know of in going to the Moon or going on to Mars, but I think the role of government is to lead the way in some of these new areas and then let industry follow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you look back on your career, what do you feel like are the greatest challenges that you’ve had?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There have been a lot of challenges. I’m not sure that I could identify any one as the greatest. I don’t have one that stands out as the greatest challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any significant people that really impacted your career or that you worked with that really made an impact on you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Started all the way back in grade school when I had a teacher that suggested that I go to a school that was Brooklyn Technical High School, and she kind of steered me towards that, and then the professors at the Air Force Academy were starting up the space program, and through all the people here at NASA. There’s certainly a lot of people that have influenced me all the way in my career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you’d like to maybe talk about that I didn’t bring up or open subject to?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.15, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There have been a lot of challenges. I’m not sure that I could identify any one as the greatest. I don’t have one that stands out as the greatest challenge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any significant people that really impacted your career or that you worked with that really made an impact on you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Started all the way back in grade school when I had a teacher that suggested that I go to a school that was Brooklyn Technical High School, and she kind of steered me towards that, and then the professors at the Air Force Academy were starting up the space program, and through all the people here at NASA. There’s certainly a lot of people that have influenced me all the way in my career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you’d like to maybe talk about that I didn’t bring up or open subject to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t think of anything. Appreciate talking with you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t mind, I’d like to see if Jennifer or Sandra have any questions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.5, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Started all the way back in grade school when I had a teacher that suggested that I go to a school that was Brooklyn Technical High School, and she kind of steered me towards that, and then the professors at the Air Force Academy were starting up the space program, and through all the people here at NASA. There’s certainly a lot of people that have influenced me all the way in my career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you’d like to maybe talk about that I didn’t bring up or open subject to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t think of anything. Appreciate talking with you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t mind, I’d like to see if Jennifer or Sandra have any questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jennifer, do you have any?\n\nActually I don’t. I think that you’ve answered all my questions every time I had one."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00045:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 15.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t think of anything. Appreciate talking with you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t mind, I’d like to see if Jennifer or Sandra have any questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jennifer, do you have any?\n\nActually I don’t. I think that you’ve answered all my questions every time I had one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said that the Shuttle training vehicle prepared you for flying with Shuttle and landing. Could you just describe the difference between the Shuttle and other aircraft that you flew, or jets, and landing it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.15589260868816, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I would say my first exposure to the Peace Corps was when I was a kid in the eighties and saw the Tom Hanks movie Volunteers. That was pretty much all I knew about the Peace Corps. But I grew up with a strong love of travel and interest in learning new things and new people and art and culture and everything. I then went to college to get an engineering degree and started working as an engineer, found it incredibly boring, and felt a little stuck with what I was doing and wanted something new. But I wasn't sure what. And I was in I guess my mid twenties, mid to late twenties at the time, and I don't even honestly remember how it popped into my head.\n\nI didn't always grow up thinking I'm going to join the Peace Corps, but the idea of being able to travel, learn about new people and different places in a different culture and have more meaning to my work than keeping a company out of trouble with the law, which was basically my job, keeping them from polluting beyond legal limits. So I just decided. I was like, why not now? You know, I have the freedom to do so and with no debts and no significant others. So I decided to quit my job and join the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you take a leave from your job or you quit it outright?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I quit, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you grow up? I didn't ask you that to start."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up in a small town in south Alabama in between Pensacola, Florida, and Mobile, Alabama. So I went to school in Mobile pretty much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And you applied for the Peace Corps. And was it a very complicated process at the time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.95099178743129, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I quit, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you grow up? I didn't ask you that to start."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up in a small town in south Alabama in between Pensacola, Florida, and Mobile, Alabama. So I went to school in Mobile pretty much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And you applied for the Peace Corps. And was it a very complicated process at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think it was very complicated. To me it just seemed long and tedious, though, after having heard what other volunteers went through, mine apparently was fairly quick and painless. I think it maybe only took six or eight months. It was just a whole lot of paperwork, visiting doctors, getting records, shipping that all off. But even my interview was fairly easy. There wasn't anybody. I was living in Melbourne, Florida, in the middle, kind of middle eastern part of the state. And the closest interview place I think was in Atlanta. But I didn't have to go there. They did a phone interview with me, which I found out is not normal, but it even that just felt like I was just chatting with someone. It was, it was very, I felt very friendly, very easy.\n\nThe only thing that struck me is, you know, he was like, well, since we're not in person, I just have to ask, do you have purple hair or face tattoos or piercings? Because I guess, you know, especially in certain countries and where I ended up serving probably would not have favored. I already looked weird just being a gringa, but I wasn't too out of place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, what program did you apply for?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.945546430479208, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up in a small town in south Alabama in between Pensacola, Florida, and Mobile, Alabama. So I went to school in Mobile pretty much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And you applied for the Peace Corps. And was it a very complicated process at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think it was very complicated. To me it just seemed long and tedious, though, after having heard what other volunteers went through, mine apparently was fairly quick and painless. I think it maybe only took six or eight months. It was just a whole lot of paperwork, visiting doctors, getting records, shipping that all off. But even my interview was fairly easy. There wasn't anybody. I was living in Melbourne, Florida, in the middle, kind of middle eastern part of the state. And the closest interview place I think was in Atlanta. But I didn't have to go there. They did a phone interview with me, which I found out is not normal, but it even that just felt like I was just chatting with someone. It was, it was very, I felt very friendly, very easy.\n\nThe only thing that struck me is, you know, he was like, well, since we're not in person, I just have to ask, do you have purple hair or face tattoos or piercings? Because I guess, you know, especially in certain countries and where I ended up serving probably would not have favored. I already looked weird just being a gringa, but I wasn't too out of place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, what program did you apply for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I applied for engineering and ended up getting placed in environmental program in Guatemala, which was environmental education and ecotourism. And my particular job, I actually ended up getting placed with environmental education for school kids, which was interesting to me because I'd never even been around kids before at the time. Never tutored, never taught anybody.\n\nWhat age group?\n\nElementary school. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about region of the world?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.828384922754676, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think it was very complicated. To me it just seemed long and tedious, though, after having heard what other volunteers went through, mine apparently was fairly quick and painless. I think it maybe only took six or eight months. It was just a whole lot of paperwork, visiting doctors, getting records, shipping that all off. But even my interview was fairly easy. There wasn't anybody. I was living in Melbourne, Florida, in the middle, kind of middle eastern part of the state. And the closest interview place I think was in Atlanta. But I didn't have to go there. They did a phone interview with me, which I found out is not normal, but it even that just felt like I was just chatting with someone. It was, it was very, I felt very friendly, very easy.\n\nThe only thing that struck me is, you know, he was like, well, since we're not in person, I just have to ask, do you have purple hair or face tattoos or piercings? Because I guess, you know, especially in certain countries and where I ended up serving probably would not have favored. I already looked weird just being a gringa, but I wasn't too out of place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, what program did you apply for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I applied for engineering and ended up getting placed in environmental program in Guatemala, which was environmental education and ecotourism. And my particular job, I actually ended up getting placed with environmental education for school kids, which was interesting to me because I'd never even been around kids before at the time. Never tutored, never taught anybody.\n\nWhat age group?\n\nElementary school. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about region of the world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wanted Latin America because I already knew some Spanish, or Africa because I just felt the need there is so great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your first offer was Guatemala?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.92042769194964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I applied for engineering and ended up getting placed in environmental program in Guatemala, which was environmental education and ecotourism. And my particular job, I actually ended up getting placed with environmental education for school kids, which was interesting to me because I'd never even been around kids before at the time. Never tutored, never taught anybody.\n\nWhat age group?\n\nElementary school. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about region of the world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wanted Latin America because I already knew some Spanish, or Africa because I just felt the need there is so great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your first offer was Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get much lead time or did they say pack up and show up in another week or so?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 21.0226974354996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wanted Latin America because I already knew some Spanish, or Africa because I just felt the need there is so great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your first offer was Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get much lead time or did they say pack up and show up in another week or so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was accepted in October and, or given, I was accepted and then given my placement, I think in October and I left in January. So I had plenty of time to give my notice to my job, sell all my stuff, tell my family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me what your transition was then from civilian life into the Peace Corps. They had a staging and then a training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.35855270611067, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you get much lead time or did they say pack up and show up in another week or so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was accepted in October and, or given, I was accepted and then given my placement, I think in October and I left in January. So I had plenty of time to give my notice to my job, sell all my stuff, tell my family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me what your transition was then from civilian life into the Peace Corps. They had a staging and then a training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did just probably, it might have been overnight, but a few hours staging in Miami. We all met in Miami. They gave us a couple hour debrief. I think we spent the night there. And then the next day we got on a plane to Guatemala. Most of us, one person actually decided not to get on the plane, which was interesting. You know, made it to staging, but I guess decided it was not for them. And then we were driven immediately to our training facility once we got in country, kind of given about a one hour tour of the training facility, told we would be taking classes in health, culture, language, and our technical specialty.\n\nAnd then we were brought to a local house and dropped off and said, okay, here's the family you're going to be living with for the next, well, that family, two months, and we'll pick you up in the morning to bring you to the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went alone to your family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.842836340122966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was accepted in October and, or given, I was accepted and then given my placement, I think in October and I left in January. So I had plenty of time to give my notice to my job, sell all my stuff, tell my family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me what your transition was then from civilian life into the Peace Corps. They had a staging and then a training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did just probably, it might have been overnight, but a few hours staging in Miami. We all met in Miami. They gave us a couple hour debrief. I think we spent the night there. And then the next day we got on a plane to Guatemala. Most of us, one person actually decided not to get on the plane, which was interesting. You know, made it to staging, but I guess decided it was not for them. And then we were driven immediately to our training facility once we got in country, kind of given about a one hour tour of the training facility, told we would be taking classes in health, culture, language, and our technical specialty.\n\nAnd then we were brought to a local house and dropped off and said, okay, here's the family you're going to be living with for the next, well, that family, two months, and we'll pick you up in the morning to bring you to the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went alone to your family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or were you placed in pairs?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.492040377914407, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did just probably, it might have been overnight, but a few hours staging in Miami. We all met in Miami. They gave us a couple hour debrief. I think we spent the night there. And then the next day we got on a plane to Guatemala. Most of us, one person actually decided not to get on the plane, which was interesting. You know, made it to staging, but I guess decided it was not for them. And then we were driven immediately to our training facility once we got in country, kind of given about a one hour tour of the training facility, told we would be taking classes in health, culture, language, and our technical specialty.\n\nAnd then we were brought to a local house and dropped off and said, okay, here's the family you're going to be living with for the next, well, that family, two months, and we'll pick you up in the morning to bring you to the training center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went alone to your family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or were you placed in pairs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I went alone to my family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What town was the training in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.991155975460451, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or were you placed in pairs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I went alone to my family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What town was the training in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training was in a town called Santa Lucia Milpas Alta [Altas]. It was, it was maybe half an hour outside of the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you got placed in with your family and spent how long there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.434617750511611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I went alone to my family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What town was the training in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training was in a town called Santa Lucia Milpas Alta [Altas]. It was, it was maybe half an hour outside of the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you got placed in with your family and spent how long there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We spent two months at the training facility and then we spent a month kind of on site training. So it was just our technical, just the environmental people. We went to a site, very small town, and do not ask me the name. I do not remember. There was maybe 400 people and did technical training for a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And after that got finished then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.70513083390179, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training was in a town called Santa Lucia Milpas Alta [Altas]. It was, it was maybe half an hour outside of the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you got placed in with your family and spent how long there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We spent two months at the training facility and then we spent a month kind of on site training. So it was just our technical, just the environmental people. We went to a site, very small town, and do not ask me the name. I do not remember. There was maybe 400 people and did technical training for a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And after that got finished then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "After that we came back to the training center for maybe a few days or a week and did our language assessment to make sure that our language proficient enough to go to our site, which honestly, I, I have to admit I purposefully tried to fail because even though I had had. I'd been taking Spanish since middle school, in our education system I never actually had to carry on a conversation. I learned to read and write. I could memorize a speech and give it. But holy cow, when confronted with somebody who wants to talk to you, I'm like, can you write that down? I could not. Language is not my gift. So I thought if I could stay another month, one on one, you know, and have some more help with my Spanish, that would be amazing. Unfortunately, they passed me anyways and said nope, you got to go to your site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now living with a family must have helped with the language."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.783478704335323, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We spent two months at the training facility and then we spent a month kind of on site training. So it was just our technical, just the environmental people. We went to a site, very small town, and do not ask me the name. I do not remember. There was maybe 400 people and did technical training for a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And after that got finished then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "After that we came back to the training center for maybe a few days or a week and did our language assessment to make sure that our language proficient enough to go to our site, which honestly, I, I have to admit I purposefully tried to fail because even though I had had. I'd been taking Spanish since middle school, in our education system I never actually had to carry on a conversation. I learned to read and write. I could memorize a speech and give it. But holy cow, when confronted with somebody who wants to talk to you, I'm like, can you write that down? I could not. Language is not my gift. So I thought if I could stay another month, one on one, you know, and have some more help with my Spanish, that would be amazing. Unfortunately, they passed me anyways and said nope, you got to go to your site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now living with a family must have helped with the language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did. It did. It was scary at first being dropped off the first day and I'm like, oh, wow, said a few things and they just start rattling off in Spanish. I'm like, deer in headlights, like please slow down. But they were amazing. They'd hosted volunteers before, were so patient with me, super wonderful people. So yes, it definitely helped. And then there was some days we had 6 hours of Spanish classes so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Yeah. So you got through that and I'm sure your Spanish improved as you went on. But you were stationed then where?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.648309671483691, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After that we came back to the training center for maybe a few days or a week and did our language assessment to make sure that our language proficient enough to go to our site, which honestly, I, I have to admit I purposefully tried to fail because even though I had had. I'd been taking Spanish since middle school, in our education system I never actually had to carry on a conversation. I learned to read and write. I could memorize a speech and give it. But holy cow, when confronted with somebody who wants to talk to you, I'm like, can you write that down? I could not. Language is not my gift. So I thought if I could stay another month, one on one, you know, and have some more help with my Spanish, that would be amazing. Unfortunately, they passed me anyways and said nope, you got to go to your site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now living with a family must have helped with the language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did. It did. It was scary at first being dropped off the first day and I'm like, oh, wow, said a few things and they just start rattling off in Spanish. I'm like, deer in headlights, like please slow down. But they were amazing. They'd hosted volunteers before, were so patient with me, super wonderful people. So yes, it definitely helped. And then there was some days we had 6 hours of Spanish classes so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Yeah. So you got through that and I'm sure your Spanish improved as you went on. But you were stationed then where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was stationed in San Juan La Laguna in Sololá, in the eastern or, excuse me, the western side of the country. Very glad to get there. Training was tough for me and it was a rough three months. It felt like being back in, I don't know, elementary school, boarding school. I was like, I can do this if I can just get through training so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there are a lot of people in your training group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 9.609232968315212, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did. It did. It was scary at first being dropped off the first day and I'm like, oh, wow, said a few things and they just start rattling off in Spanish. I'm like, deer in headlights, like please slow down. But they were amazing. They'd hosted volunteers before, were so patient with me, super wonderful people. So yes, it definitely helped. And then there was some days we had 6 hours of Spanish classes so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Yeah. So you got through that and I'm sure your Spanish improved as you went on. But you were stationed then where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was stationed in San Juan La Laguna in Sololá, in the eastern or, excuse me, the western side of the country. Very glad to get there. Training was tough for me and it was a rough three months. It felt like being back in, I don't know, elementary school, boarding school. I was like, I can do this if I can just get through training so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there are a lot of people in your training group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Um. I'm trying to remember how many because we had 12, I think just in environment, and there was about four. So there was probably 50 or 60 people in our training group. Guatemala, at least at the time, was the largest Peace Corps country, and they had people coming in, I think, new trainees every quarter, so it was very big."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So now you've got to your town. And what was that like? What were your accommodations like? Were you placed with the family or given?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.348742069019494, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. So how it worked and I don't know if this was universal at the time, but you were assigned a counterpart who was supposed to be somebody living and working in your town, who you were going to work with. And they would introduce you around, help you get settled, help you find a place to live. Because we were assigned to work with a particular organization who had requested a Peace Corps volunteer. The organization I was assigned to was a big organization headquartered in a city probably about a half an hour, and I say city because it was bigger than my town, about maybe a half an hour, probably about a half hour boat ride away from where I was. And my counterpart did not live in my town. He actually only came to my town about once a month.\n\nSo he met me at the training center because they actually come and get you from the training center. You know, they get you on the right bus to your town. He actually brought me to the city across the lake where they were stationed, put me in a boat, and said, your town is over there. So I just was in a boat going off to my town and luckily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He didn't escort you there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. So luckily there was already a Peace Corps volunteer in my town who was going to be leaving in three months. So she was there. And I actually had a site mate from my training group who was going for additional work. So the two of us kind of went together to our town because her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's helpful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Her counterpart was similar, didn't live in the town. And just so they just put us on a boat and said, have fun. So the other Peace Corps volunteer met us and kind of introduced us around. We got to stay with her for about a week while we looked for housing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to look yourself?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.943046743354993, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. So luckily there was already a Peace Corps volunteer in my town who was going to be leaving in three months. So she was there. And I actually had a site mate from my training group who was going for additional work. So the two of us kind of went together to our town because her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's helpful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Her counterpart was similar, didn't live in the town. And just so they just put us on a boat and said, have fun. So the other Peace Corps volunteer met us and kind of introduced us around. We got to stay with her for about a week while we looked for housing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to look yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Had to look myself. Because my counterpart didn't really know anyone in town. They didn't set anything up prior to our arrival so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's pretty unusual that that housing wasn't established ahead of time for you. Anyway, how did that go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.603385270394437, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Her counterpart was similar, didn't live in the town. And just so they just put us on a boat and said, have fun. So the other Peace Corps volunteer met us and kind of introduced us around. We got to stay with her for about a week while we looked for housing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to look yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Had to look myself. Because my counterpart didn't really know anyone in town. They didn't set anything up prior to our arrival so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's pretty unusual that that housing wasn't established ahead of time for you. Anyway, how did that go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank goodness that other volunteer was there because she was great and knew everybody in town. And luckily, surprisingly, in our town there were several vacant homes and both my site mate and I were able to each individually get our own homes that were within our budget. The one I was able to get had been vacant since the war. Guatemala at the time I went there, was just recovering from a horrible civil war where there was mass genocide. Entire towns wiped off the map. It was really bad. My town was fairly sheltered from it, with the exception of one woman was murdered in my town and that was her home. Then was vacant. And they were like, yes, rent it to the gringa. So it ended up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You think there were superstitions in the village that prevented anybody else from living there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.225983633771596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Had to look myself. Because my counterpart didn't really know anyone in town. They didn't set anything up prior to our arrival so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's pretty unusual that that housing wasn't established ahead of time for you. Anyway, how did that go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank goodness that other volunteer was there because she was great and knew everybody in town. And luckily, surprisingly, in our town there were several vacant homes and both my site mate and I were able to each individually get our own homes that were within our budget. The one I was able to get had been vacant since the war. Guatemala at the time I went there, was just recovering from a horrible civil war where there was mass genocide. Entire towns wiped off the map. It was really bad. My town was fairly sheltered from it, with the exception of one woman was murdered in my town and that was her home. Then was vacant. And they were like, yes, rent it to the gringa. So it ended up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You think there were superstitions in the village that prevented anybody else from living there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "100%. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nothing happened to you while you were in the house?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.917759593079551, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank goodness that other volunteer was there because she was great and knew everybody in town. And luckily, surprisingly, in our town there were several vacant homes and both my site mate and I were able to each individually get our own homes that were within our budget. The one I was able to get had been vacant since the war. Guatemala at the time I went there, was just recovering from a horrible civil war where there was mass genocide. Entire towns wiped off the map. It was really bad. My town was fairly sheltered from it, with the exception of one woman was murdered in my town and that was her home. Then was vacant. And they were like, yes, rent it to the gringa. So it ended up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You think there were superstitions in the village that prevented anybody else from living there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "100%. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nothing happened to you while you were in the house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, other than being peed on by possums in the middle of the night, which people said like, they were like, well, that's because the house is cursed. So I ended up, it got so bad I ended up actually moving because I tried to trap them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Living up in the roof?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.54044394207352, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, other than being peed on by possums in the middle of the night, which people said like, they were like, well, that's because the house is cursed. So I ended up, it got so bad I ended up actually moving because I tried to trap them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Living up in the roof?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. And well, in the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ceiling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the, yeah, and my bedroom was the only one that had a ceiling. None of the others had ceilings and they had made nests up there. And I had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their own apartment."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.378271046748354, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. And well, in the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ceiling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the, yeah, and my bedroom was the only one that had a ceiling. None of the others had ceilings and they had made nests up there. And I had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their own apartment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I had guys go up there and clean it out and we tried to put chicken wire all around so they couldn't get in, but somehow they kept getting in and somebody gave me a trap. So I would put a trap up there with chicken in it and I'd catch one and then the other, it's like they would catch on, and they wouldn't touch it for two weeks. And then I'd catch another one. But this was like two months and I caught maybe three and it was still happening. So I said, I can't. I can't do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long did it take you to move to another?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.309190051942615, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the, yeah, and my bedroom was the only one that had a ceiling. None of the others had ceilings and they had made nests up there. And I had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their own apartment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I had guys go up there and clean it out and we tried to put chicken wire all around so they couldn't get in, but somehow they kept getting in and somebody gave me a trap. So I would put a trap up there with chicken in it and I'd catch one and then the other, it's like they would catch on, and they wouldn't touch it for two weeks. And then I'd catch another one. But this was like two months and I caught maybe three and it was still happening. So I said, I can't. I can't do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long did it take you to move to another?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was lucky. There was another house that I'd had my eye on that, it was really beautiful, vacant, had a huge yard and you could kind of see the lake over the wall. There was like this big concrete wall around it, but they had wanted too much money. But by that point, I had befriended the family that owned it and explained my situation. So they came down in price and let me have the house. Because I was like, it's just sitting here. Nothing, you're not going to do anything else with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Now you mention the lake. Tell me the name of the lake."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.258259323385944, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was lucky. There was another house that I'd had my eye on that, it was really beautiful, vacant, had a huge yard and you could kind of see the lake over the wall. There was like this big concrete wall around it, but they had wanted too much money. But by that point, I had befriended the family that owned it and explained my situation. So they came down in price and let me have the house. Because I was like, it's just sitting here. Nothing, you're not going to do anything else with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Now you mention the lake. Tell me the name of the lake."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, Lago Atitlan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very famous. If you ever are a tourist in Guatemala, you probably go there. But none came to my town. They came to the town next door. But my town was just a sleepy little town no tourists ever came to, which was kind of nice actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You also mentioned a company that the Peace Corps was working in collaboration with."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.17584369265105, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, Lago Atitlan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very famous. If you ever are a tourist in Guatemala, you probably go there. But none came to my town. They came to the town next door. But my town was just a sleepy little town no tourists ever came to, which was kind of nice actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You also mentioned a company that the Peace Corps was working in collaboration with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The NGO, the non-governmental organization I was assigned to. Um. I am blanking on their name because I actually didn't ever really work with them. I ended up more working with the Ministry of Education because I was assigned to do environmental education in the elementary schools. And for me, you know, one of the principles in the Peace Corps that resonated strongly with me was sustainability. Like, I want this to keep going after I leave, and I'm not the best teacher of kids. And I would try to go in and develop programs and have the teachers help me with the kids. But every time I would come to the school, the teacher is like, great, I have a break. I'll see you in half an hour. I would be left alone with the kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They weren't benefiting from that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.195381880723389, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very famous. If you ever are a tourist in Guatemala, you probably go there. But none came to my town. They came to the town next door. But my town was just a sleepy little town no tourists ever came to, which was kind of nice actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You also mentioned a company that the Peace Corps was working in collaboration with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The NGO, the non-governmental organization I was assigned to. Um. I am blanking on their name because I actually didn't ever really work with them. I ended up more working with the Ministry of Education because I was assigned to do environmental education in the elementary schools. And for me, you know, one of the principles in the Peace Corps that resonated strongly with me was sustainability. Like, I want this to keep going after I leave, and I'm not the best teacher of kids. And I would try to go in and develop programs and have the teachers help me with the kids. But every time I would come to the school, the teacher is like, great, I have a break. I'll see you in half an hour. I would be left alone with the kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They weren't benefiting from that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I was trying to work with the Ministry of Education to help them figure out ways that we could incorporate environmental themes into what they're currently teaching. Like, it didn't have to be a whole new curriculum. We can put it in math and science and history and, um. They did not want to do that at all and ended up not wanting me to teach or help out in the schools at all. It was sad and I felt very defeated and lost."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be discouraging, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.328202089692654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The NGO, the non-governmental organization I was assigned to. Um. I am blanking on their name because I actually didn't ever really work with them. I ended up more working with the Ministry of Education because I was assigned to do environmental education in the elementary schools. And for me, you know, one of the principles in the Peace Corps that resonated strongly with me was sustainability. Like, I want this to keep going after I leave, and I'm not the best teacher of kids. And I would try to go in and develop programs and have the teachers help me with the kids. But every time I would come to the school, the teacher is like, great, I have a break. I'll see you in half an hour. I would be left alone with the kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They weren't benefiting from that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I was trying to work with the Ministry of Education to help them figure out ways that we could incorporate environmental themes into what they're currently teaching. Like, it didn't have to be a whole new curriculum. We can put it in math and science and history and, um. They did not want to do that at all and ended up not wanting me to teach or help out in the schools at all. It was sad and I felt very defeated and lost."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be discouraging, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And like I was a horrible volunteer and nobody wanted to work with me. So that was, that was rough. I felt like I had failed big time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think they didn't want to? Just they were set in their ways of presenting material?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.586891210769616, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I was trying to work with the Ministry of Education to help them figure out ways that we could incorporate environmental themes into what they're currently teaching. Like, it didn't have to be a whole new curriculum. We can put it in math and science and history and, um. They did not want to do that at all and ended up not wanting me to teach or help out in the schools at all. It was sad and I felt very defeated and lost."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be discouraging, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And like I was a horrible volunteer and nobody wanted to work with me. So that was, that was rough. I felt like I had failed big time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why do you think they didn't want to? Just they were set in their ways of presenting material?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I think it's a situation where most of us don't like change. It's, even if the path isn't great or we're not happy with it or it's sometimes even painful, it's easier just to keep going, as you know. And you don't have to think too much about it. You don't have to do anything. You don't ruffle any feathers. And it just, status quo is a lot easier than trying to implement changes. So and I didn't have the support of the teachers because they were like, oh, a gringa is coming to teach. I get a free break and I get paid to do nothing. And the Ministry of Education, I guess, didn't, just had other things to worry about and just didn't care that much so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that continued for the duration of your service?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.666958102072266, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I loved it because it was his idea, not the gringa's idea. And they'll placate me while I'm there, but when I leave, it'll disappear so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was that ranger?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "His. Oh my gosh. What was his last name? It was Raul. I want to say Iq, but I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's okay, we have Raul."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to give a name to this person."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 15.185509002302517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "His. Oh my gosh. What was his last name? It was Raul. I want to say Iq, but I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's okay, we have Raul."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to give a name to this person."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Raul."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you worked with him. And how did that go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.842568209575546, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was like, okay, well, I should try this first to see is it going to take 5 hours? You know, how long is the process? And so I started with one woman and having her show me and then working with her on how to show other people and coming up with translations because she, you know, her Spanish wasn't great because everybody in my community was Mayan and most everybody also spoke Spanish. But since it was their second language, it was not great Spanish. So we came up with like printed materials so you can point and, you know, with whatever language to be able to understand what's going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wondered that because you said there was such significant tourism. What language? What countries people were coming from that were coming into the area or were they really ready to speak Spanish if they came there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most, no, they didn't. You know, there was a lot of people from the States who normally only just speak English. There are a lot of Europeans. So we had a lot of people that spoke French and German, some Spanish, but most tourists didn't come in fluent in Spanish so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you worked around that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was successful?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.713964677306162, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most, no, they didn't. You know, there was a lot of people from the States who normally only just speak English. There are a lot of Europeans. So we had a lot of people that spoke French and German, some Spanish, but most tourists didn't come in fluent in Spanish so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you worked around that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was successful?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I actually recruited some people to come in and be kind of test cases and it worked really well and they loved it and were excited they got to walk home with something that they made. But then they also wanted to buy like the real thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's good."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.459960752562401, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was successful?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I actually recruited some people to come in and be kind of test cases and it worked really well and they loved it and were excited they got to walk home with something that they made. But then they also wanted to buy like the real thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was good. But this was just in, probably, I don't even think my last year of service, maybe my last eight months. So I only kind of got so far. And then when I was leaving, I was trying to petition to the Peace Corps to have a replacement volunteer for me, but to work with this organization. But it was hard because they weren't official. They hadn't requested a Peace Corps volunteer. So I was like, please send somebody that might be interested, at least in a side project of doing this. And I met my replacement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, then it was successful."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.28884528062489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I actually recruited some people to come in and be kind of test cases and it worked really well and they loved it and were excited they got to walk home with something that they made. But then they also wanted to buy like the real thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was good. But this was just in, probably, I don't even think my last year of service, maybe my last eight months. So I only kind of got so far. And then when I was leaving, I was trying to petition to the Peace Corps to have a replacement volunteer for me, but to work with this organization. But it was hard because they weren't official. They hadn't requested a Peace Corps volunteer. So I was like, please send somebody that might be interested, at least in a side project of doing this. And I met my replacement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, then it was successful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she seemed great. I didn't keep up with her, so I don't know how much she was involved. But I, you know, I still keep up with people in my town and now they actually have a website. There's a community center that showcases local works. There's hotels, there's restaurants. They have paved roads, internet. Like it's crazy how much it's exploded."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It hasn't been that long either."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.098716978472101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was good. But this was just in, probably, I don't even think my last year of service, maybe my last eight months. So I only kind of got so far. And then when I was leaving, I was trying to petition to the Peace Corps to have a replacement volunteer for me, but to work with this organization. But it was hard because they weren't official. They hadn't requested a Peace Corps volunteer. So I was like, please send somebody that might be interested, at least in a side project of doing this. And I met my replacement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, then it was successful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she seemed great. I didn't keep up with her, so I don't know how much she was involved. But I, you know, I still keep up with people in my town and now they actually have a website. There's a community center that showcases local works. There's hotels, there's restaurants. They have paved roads, internet. Like it's crazy how much it's exploded."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It hasn't been that long either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, 20 years now, almost so. But yeah. So I was excited that, you know, it was something that they just continued to run, because it was their idea and that's what makes it sustainable. I was just kind of the catalyst helping behind the scenes, but it was all their vision. So I was like, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, very fruitful."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.998416022805063, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, 20 years now, almost so. But yeah. So I was excited that, you know, it was something that they just continued to run, because it was their idea and that's what makes it sustainable. I was just kind of the catalyst helping behind the scenes, but it was all their vision. So I was like, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, very fruitful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Second year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It takes a while to get going very often anyway. So that's not unusual."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.109351136450071, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Second year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It takes a while to get going very often anyway. So that's not unusual."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And your description of how you went into the community is very similar to what I have heard the very initial volunteers that went into the Peace Corps. There were no formalized programs. They were just told, go there and see what you can do. So you followed that format and it worked out well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.343723484944523, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It takes a while to get going very often anyway. So that's not unusual."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And your description of how you went into the community is very similar to what I have heard the very initial volunteers that went into the Peace Corps. There were no formalized programs. They were just told, go there and see what you can do. So you followed that format and it worked out well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were there two years."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.715248316605026, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And your description of how you went into the community is very similar to what I have heard the very initial volunteers that went into the Peace Corps. There were no formalized programs. They were just told, go there and see what you can do. So you followed that format and it worked out well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were there two years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was a, when you were working with this board, what was a typical day like or did it vary so much?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.016942574005583, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were there two years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was a, when you were working with this board, what was a typical day like or did it vary so much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It varied so much. And honestly, the majority of my time was mostly downtime. So I would get up and read and then get out of the house and just go chat with people and just sit with people and talk. And do, you know, I would say maybe only 20 percent of my time was actual work honestly, even with this organization. I mean, there would be spurts where every day we're doing something, but then there would be other times where, you know, because all of the people involved in this, they all had full time jobs and ways that they needed to support their families and things too. So this was just kind of on the side for them as well. So the majority of my time was just spent, you know, reading or wandering the town and just chatting with people or sitting by the lake or."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have much contact with other volunteers? You said the one volunteer that helped you get settled was there for three months. There was another volunteer there at the same time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.46326952667287, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was a, when you were working with this board, what was a typical day like or did it vary so much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It varied so much. And honestly, the majority of my time was mostly downtime. So I would get up and read and then get out of the house and just go chat with people and just sit with people and talk. And do, you know, I would say maybe only 20 percent of my time was actual work honestly, even with this organization. I mean, there would be spurts where every day we're doing something, but then there would be other times where, you know, because all of the people involved in this, they all had full time jobs and ways that they needed to support their families and things too. So this was just kind of on the side for them as well. So the majority of my time was just spent, you know, reading or wandering the town and just chatting with people or sitting by the lake or."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have much contact with other volunteers? You said the one volunteer that helped you get settled was there for three months. There was another volunteer there at the same time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was another volunteer I trained with, but she was in a different program so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Same village though?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.855888304534403, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was another volunteer I trained with, but she was in a different program so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Same village though?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. She didn't live too far from me. But, um, but it was interesting. I mean, we were friends and amicable, but we didn't. We didn't hang out a lot because I think both of us were like, well, we don't want to just glom to the other gringa and just kind of, because you can kind of get trapped in that bubble."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, you know, especially because she ended up in a similar situation where she ended up with no work either. So we could have just had our little Peace Corps thing and just like tuned out. But we both wanted to, I think, integrate a little bit more in the community. But she also ended up dating somebody in another town, so she was not actually in my town a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you travel at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.839875893927115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. She didn't live too far from me. But, um, but it was interesting. I mean, we were friends and amicable, but we didn't. We didn't hang out a lot because I think both of us were like, well, we don't want to just glom to the other gringa and just kind of, because you can kind of get trapped in that bubble."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, you know, especially because she ended up in a similar situation where she ended up with no work either. So we could have just had our little Peace Corps thing and just like tuned out. But we both wanted to, I think, integrate a little bit more in the community. But she also ended up dating somebody in another town, so she was not actually in my town a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you travel at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. One of my. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We were talking about traveling in the country."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.374240245531029, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That is in, I guess sort of the southern part of the country on the border with Nicaragua."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Did you go straight to Honduras from Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I wanted to. But they have this, or at least at the time, they had this weird policy where when you are going to do a service in another country, you have to take at least a month off. Most people go home. They said, you don't have to go home, but you can't, you can't stay here. Just go somewhere. And for me, you know, a lot of volunteers took their vacations to go home and visit friends and family. For me, I never did that, because I was like my friends and family are, they're the same people and the same places. I'll see them when I get home. Like, I have a month to just roam. And so I just took the opportunity to wander around and have fun and see things. And actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Within Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, yes and no. So I took some time in Guatemala, a little bit of time in Honduras. A friend came to visit me and we kind of did some time in Honduras. And then I actually went to Scotland for two weeks randomly. Because my mother and my sister were taking a vacation there and it just happened to coincide. And I'm like, I'm there! Yeah, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Interesting itinerary."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.971378050590031, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I wanted to. But they have this, or at least at the time, they had this weird policy where when you are going to do a service in another country, you have to take at least a month off. Most people go home. They said, you don't have to go home, but you can't, you can't stay here. Just go somewhere. And for me, you know, a lot of volunteers took their vacations to go home and visit friends and family. For me, I never did that, because I was like my friends and family are, they're the same people and the same places. I'll see them when I get home. Like, I have a month to just roam. And so I just took the opportunity to wander around and have fun and see things. And actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Within Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, yes and no. So I took some time in Guatemala, a little bit of time in Honduras. A friend came to visit me and we kind of did some time in Honduras. And then I actually went to Scotland for two weeks randomly. Because my mother and my sister were taking a vacation there and it just happened to coincide. And I'm like, I'm there! Yeah, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Interesting itinerary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Then you come back to Central America, you get into Honduras and you get involved in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.63486450065559, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, yes and no. So I took some time in Guatemala, a little bit of time in Honduras. A friend came to visit me and we kind of did some time in Honduras. And then I actually went to Scotland for two weeks randomly. Because my mother and my sister were taking a vacation there and it just happened to coincide. And I'm like, I'm there! Yeah, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Interesting itinerary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Then you come back to Central America, you get into Honduras and you get involved in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some more training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.149849445172878, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Then you come back to Central America, you get into Honduras and you get involved in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some more training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yeah, they didn't put me through the whole training program. I got to catch the tail end of a current training program. So I was in training maybe two weeks, just really catching up on the technical aspect. Because I thought, oh, water systems, I got this. Uh uh. You do not design water systems in rural Central America like you do in the States. It is, you can do it on an Excel spreadsheet. It's so simple and easy and interesting. So, no pumps involved. It's all just gravity fed. So kind of learning how to simplify water systems. And then one of the things I stressed to my program manager was that, you know, I obviously had already been a volunteer, experienced. I wasn't going to go through the same kind of transitions and learning curve and things a new volunteer would just, you know, getting settled in emotionally and figuring things out.\n\nI was like, I want to get on the ground running, put me with an organization that has had volunteers and just ready, ready to run. Sadly, that did not happen. I got assigned to work with the water department of my city. So I hike up the hill where the office was on the first day and they basically are like, okay, that's your chair. You go sit over there. And they just did their thing and went off and kind of left me. And I was trying to listen in on conversations to catch on to what's, what was happening. And it was a few hours and paid no attention to me at all. So I said, okay, well, you know, what can I help you with?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or they're sending a message."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.610943827969864, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some more training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yeah, they didn't put me through the whole training program. I got to catch the tail end of a current training program. So I was in training maybe two weeks, just really catching up on the technical aspect. Because I thought, oh, water systems, I got this. Uh uh. You do not design water systems in rural Central America like you do in the States. It is, you can do it on an Excel spreadsheet. It's so simple and easy and interesting. So, no pumps involved. It's all just gravity fed. So kind of learning how to simplify water systems. And then one of the things I stressed to my program manager was that, you know, I obviously had already been a volunteer, experienced. I wasn't going to go through the same kind of transitions and learning curve and things a new volunteer would just, you know, getting settled in emotionally and figuring things out.\n\nI was like, I want to get on the ground running, put me with an organization that has had volunteers and just ready, ready to run. Sadly, that did not happen. I got assigned to work with the water department of my city. So I hike up the hill where the office was on the first day and they basically are like, okay, that's your chair. You go sit over there. And they just did their thing and went off and kind of left me. And I was trying to listen in on conversations to catch on to what's, what was happening. And it was a few hours and paid no attention to me at all. So I said, okay, well, you know, what can I help you with?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or they're sending a message."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly. I was like, what can I help with? You know, I'm here, I'm ready. And the guy basically was like, well, you can come back tomorrow, but bring a book because there's nothing that we have for you to do. And I feel like the situation would have been different if I was a male volunteer but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there males in the program too?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.692523244407239, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly. I was like, what can I help with? You know, I'm here, I'm ready. And the guy basically was like, well, you can come back tomorrow, but bring a book because there's nothing that we have for you to do. And I feel like the situation would have been different if I was a male volunteer but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there males in the program too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the water and san program?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You communicate with them at all, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.325025827119155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the water and san program?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You communicate with them at all, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they in similar situations? Do you know how that kind of worked out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.027901957897939, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If the town was not willing to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's impressive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. They had to work for it because they had to feel ownership, like this is our system. Because if we just came in like, oh, here's a water system, first time something breaks, they're gonna be like, oh well, we'll just wait for more gringos to come and fix it for us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That whole. So I was excited. And they wanted help training the local people on how to properly survey so that they knew that the water would get from the source to the town, you know? And, you know, if they could give everybody a tap stand in their house or if they were community tap stands, you know, the whole thing. So I came up with a program for them. I designed an Excel program where we could put in all the survey points and it would tell you exactly. It would map out exactly how to build it. And, you know, if we had enough pressure. And then I taught all the local people and we'd go up in the mountains and we'd be out there surveying. And I would teach them how to do that and plot the points. And it was awesome and it was such a success.\n\nThey got all the Central American Action Against Hunger groups to come to Honduras, and I held a big training for all the heads of the Action Against Hunger in Central America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That organization, where did it start?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.475446619886599, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. They had to work for it because they had to feel ownership, like this is our system. Because if we just came in like, oh, here's a water system, first time something breaks, they're gonna be like, oh well, we'll just wait for more gringos to come and fix it for us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That whole. So I was excited. And they wanted help training the local people on how to properly survey so that they knew that the water would get from the source to the town, you know? And, you know, if they could give everybody a tap stand in their house or if they were community tap stands, you know, the whole thing. So I came up with a program for them. I designed an Excel program where we could put in all the survey points and it would tell you exactly. It would map out exactly how to build it. And, you know, if we had enough pressure. And then I taught all the local people and we'd go up in the mountains and we'd be out there surveying. And I would teach them how to do that and plot the points. And it was awesome and it was such a success.\n\nThey got all the Central American Action Against Hunger groups to come to Honduras, and I held a big training for all the heads of the Action Against Hunger in Central America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That organization, where did it start?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my goodness. Action Against Hunger is all over the world. Where it started, I have no idea. But they have, they have like a headquarters here in the States. They have headquarters in Europe, but then they help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it originated outside the country and got established within?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.139158600667488, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So that was just like a local chapter or whatever. And they also do worked with food security, helping with agriculture and stuff. I wasn't as involved in that part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's impressive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. So you did that for?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.821287334074987, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's impressive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. So you did that for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A year. I did that for a year. And so I was basically, well, either training or mostly up hiking in the mountains and working with local communities out and about with them every day. Getting chased by killer bees once, that was fun. But, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the source of water? There were just streams up in the mountains?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.356985926749986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. So you did that for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A year. I did that for a year. And so I was basically, well, either training or mostly up hiking in the mountains and working with local communities out and about with them every day. Getting chased by killer bees once, that was fun. But, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the source of water? There were just streams up in the mountains?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so we would have to find water sources. But most people in the communities would know because it's where they would go to get water. And sometimes, like one community we worked with in the dry season, they had to hike five miles to get water. It was horrible. But we either tried to find, you know, we tried to find the highest point so it'd be the cleanest water away from everybody. And either, you know, like dam up like a piece of river so that we could divert the water, or find like a little spring we could tap that had enough pressure that would come out. So yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was. You're talking about those up high enough so it wasn't impacted by forces that might pollute the water?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.952206585277762, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A year. I did that for a year. And so I was basically, well, either training or mostly up hiking in the mountains and working with local communities out and about with them every day. Getting chased by killer bees once, that was fun. But, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the source of water? There were just streams up in the mountains?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, so we would have to find water sources. But most people in the communities would know because it's where they would go to get water. And sometimes, like one community we worked with in the dry season, they had to hike five miles to get water. It was horrible. But we either tried to find, you know, we tried to find the highest point so it'd be the cleanest water away from everybody. And either, you know, like dam up like a piece of river so that we could divert the water, or find like a little spring we could tap that had enough pressure that would come out. So yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was. You're talking about those up high enough so it wasn't impacted by forces that might pollute the water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any kind of water testing done?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.348403191700941, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any kind of water testing done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, you know, because most of the pollutants there were biological, so people, cows, pigs. So we would bring the water down to a high spot right above the town. And just build a big tank where they would basically just add chlorine to clean the water. And then it would come down into the community. So yeah. Very, very simple systems, but definitely with a way to disinfect it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was in charge of adding the chlorine and making sure that that was done properly?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.0537813241121565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, you know, because most of the pollutants there were biological, so people, cows, pigs. So we would bring the water down to a high spot right above the town. And just build a big tank where they would basically just add chlorine to clean the water. And then it would come down into the community. So yeah. Very, very simple systems, but definitely with a way to disinfect it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was in charge of adding the chlorine and making sure that that was done properly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The water board. They had to form a water board and designate like, okay, this is your job is to go out every X number of days and add chlorine. Because we would tell them, we would calculate, you know, like how often it would be added and how much. So they knew exactly what to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Chlorine wasn't hard to get?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.837534804569063, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, you know, because most of the pollutants there were biological, so people, cows, pigs. So we would bring the water down to a high spot right above the town. And just build a big tank where they would basically just add chlorine to clean the water. And then it would come down into the community. So yeah. Very, very simple systems, but definitely with a way to disinfect it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was in charge of adding the chlorine and making sure that that was done properly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The water board. They had to form a water board and designate like, okay, this is your job is to go out every X number of days and add chlorine. Because we would tell them, we would calculate, you know, like how often it would be added and how much. So they knew exactly what to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Chlorine wasn't hard to get?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds very, very workable."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.708372005076736, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The water board. They had to form a water board and designate like, okay, this is your job is to go out every X number of days and add chlorine. Because we would tell them, we would calculate, you know, like how often it would be added and how much. So they knew exactly what to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Chlorine wasn't hard to get?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds very, very workable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We didn't really touch on the housing that you were in when you were in Honduras."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.564857783418596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds very, very workable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We didn't really touch on the housing that you were in when you were in Honduras."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so I found that. There was another volunteer in the city when I got there. So she was great and I stayed with her again a couple of weeks and she introduced me around and I met, uh, well, I called her my landlady, but she actually didn't own the house I stayed in. It was her. I can't remember exactly the family relation, but anyways, they actually lived in Miami. They owned this house. It was an old family home, but it had been just sitting vacant. So they said sure and rented it to me. And it was, it was beautiful. It was great. And in Guatemala, you know, you lived in generally there were adobe homes and every room was separate. You didn't hardly, there was, it was rare that you would have a house where you would be in one room and you could go into another room. You'd have to go outside and in because they built them as family compounds. So the parents would be there and then their sons would bring their wives and they'd have kids and everybody and it was all kind of built around a courtyard, an interior courtyard.\n\nWhere this house was kind of similar. But I actually my bedroom, bathroom, and living room all connected. I had an inside bathroom, which was amazing. I was like, oh my gosh. And then my kitchen, you had to go outside. But I had this big, beautiful courtyard with a garden that was just doing its own thing. There was roses and poinsettia trees, which I didn't even know poinsettias grew like trees so. And it was all walled off as all the homes are there. But yeah, it was nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you had water supply in in the town that you were in."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.516508648242883, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We didn't really touch on the housing that you were in when you were in Honduras."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so I found that. There was another volunteer in the city when I got there. So she was great and I stayed with her again a couple of weeks and she introduced me around and I met, uh, well, I called her my landlady, but she actually didn't own the house I stayed in. It was her. I can't remember exactly the family relation, but anyways, they actually lived in Miami. They owned this house. It was an old family home, but it had been just sitting vacant. So they said sure and rented it to me. And it was, it was beautiful. It was great. And in Guatemala, you know, you lived in generally there were adobe homes and every room was separate. You didn't hardly, there was, it was rare that you would have a house where you would be in one room and you could go into another room. You'd have to go outside and in because they built them as family compounds. So the parents would be there and then their sons would bring their wives and they'd have kids and everybody and it was all kind of built around a courtyard, an interior courtyard.\n\nWhere this house was kind of similar. But I actually my bedroom, bathroom, and living room all connected. I had an inside bathroom, which was amazing. I was like, oh my gosh. And then my kitchen, you had to go outside. But I had this big, beautiful courtyard with a garden that was just doing its own thing. There was roses and poinsettia trees, which I didn't even know poinsettias grew like trees so. And it was all walled off as all the homes are there. But yeah, it was nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you had water supply in in the town that you were in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the water supply projects that you worked on were really in the surrounding areas."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.0609640268978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the food. Like in Guatemala, everybody eats black beans. Except once a year there was a season of these big white beans. Like, I've never seen them here in the States, but they're these big, fat white beans that are so good. So you'd have that for like a month. And then everything else was black beans. In Honduras, no black beans. Everything is like this red bean. That was also really good. But it was interesting, just like bordering countries and they're little countries, like a little state, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And not that far apart."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Totally different culture, food, everything. It was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. After you finished your work then, um, you were there for a year. Did anybody come in to replace you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually, um, a couple came in. And they though were assigned to, I think only one of them was water and san. I cannot remember what the other one did. They did two different jobs. But again, to get a Peace Corps, at that time, to get a Peace Corps volunteer for an organization, that organization has to request it. They have to petition with the Peace Corps. And so I was trying to tell them. I was like, you guys need to petition to get, and I don't know if they ever did or got the paperwork, but a volunteer was assigned with a different organization. But I told them, I was like, even if it's just a side project or if your other doesn't. Because they were assigned to work with the water board or the water company, but it was a man.\n\nSo I was like, it might work out for you, but if it doesn't work with Action Against Hunger, like they are great. They are doing really good things in this country. So I tried to put the word in and set them up, but I didn't really keep up with them, unfortunately. So I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you keep in touch with any local people from the countries you served in, after you came home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.845515585442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Totally different culture, food, everything. It was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. After you finished your work then, um, you were there for a year. Did anybody come in to replace you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually, um, a couple came in. And they though were assigned to, I think only one of them was water and san. I cannot remember what the other one did. They did two different jobs. But again, to get a Peace Corps, at that time, to get a Peace Corps volunteer for an organization, that organization has to request it. They have to petition with the Peace Corps. And so I was trying to tell them. I was like, you guys need to petition to get, and I don't know if they ever did or got the paperwork, but a volunteer was assigned with a different organization. But I told them, I was like, even if it's just a side project or if your other doesn't. Because they were assigned to work with the water board or the water company, but it was a man.\n\nSo I was like, it might work out for you, but if it doesn't work with Action Against Hunger, like they are great. They are doing really good things in this country. So I tried to put the word in and set them up, but I didn't really keep up with them, unfortunately. So I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you keep in touch with any local people from the countries you served in, after you came home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely from Guatemala I do. I did a little bit in Honduras, but then I've lost touch with everybody. I haven't kept up with people like I should have. But Guatemala, yeah. One of my best friends. She actually ended up moving to Spain for several years and married a man over there. And I went and I think I visited her in Spain three times. I still have not been back to Guatemala, but I want to so badly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was your transition back into the United States culture?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.71723953938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually, um, a couple came in. And they though were assigned to, I think only one of them was water and san. I cannot remember what the other one did. They did two different jobs. But again, to get a Peace Corps, at that time, to get a Peace Corps volunteer for an organization, that organization has to request it. They have to petition with the Peace Corps. And so I was trying to tell them. I was like, you guys need to petition to get, and I don't know if they ever did or got the paperwork, but a volunteer was assigned with a different organization. But I told them, I was like, even if it's just a side project or if your other doesn't. Because they were assigned to work with the water board or the water company, but it was a man.\n\nSo I was like, it might work out for you, but if it doesn't work with Action Against Hunger, like they are great. They are doing really good things in this country. So I tried to put the word in and set them up, but I didn't really keep up with them, unfortunately. So I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you keep in touch with any local people from the countries you served in, after you came home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely from Guatemala I do. I did a little bit in Honduras, but then I've lost touch with everybody. I haven't kept up with people like I should have. But Guatemala, yeah. One of my best friends. She actually ended up moving to Spain for several years and married a man over there. And I went and I think I visited her in Spain three times. I still have not been back to Guatemala, but I want to so badly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was your transition back into the United States culture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's often as difficult, if not more so than going overseas."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.463599488200001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely from Guatemala I do. I did a little bit in Honduras, but then I've lost touch with everybody. I haven't kept up with people like I should have. But Guatemala, yeah. One of my best friends. She actually ended up moving to Spain for several years and married a man over there. And I went and I think I visited her in Spain three times. I still have not been back to Guatemala, but I want to so badly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was your transition back into the United States culture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's often as difficult, if not more so than going overseas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was actually really, really hard for me. At first when I came back, you know, most people when they were leaving, they were already applying for jobs before they left the country. And me, I was like, I have been away for almost three and a half years. I just want to enjoy myself for a little bit and visit people, because I have friends all over the country. So I was like, I just want to run around and visit friends and play. And I made it up the East Coast to see my friends and then I started going out west. But by that point it had been two months I was back in the country and then I had like a nervous breakdown. I was like, I'm visiting these friends who all have lives. They have jobs, they have a place to live there, they have friends, and they're doing things. It's like, I have nothing. I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I like freaked out.\n\nSo I cut my trip short. I told my other friends, I was like, I can't visit you right now. I've got to get a job and a life and figure out what I'm doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had some wonderful experience they didn't have, though."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.680180000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had that experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. A lot of times I hated it while I was there. I've always been kind of an even keeled person. And during my service, I've never been on such an emotional roller coaster. Like, you know, I feel like, you know, somebody said something, you know, made some bad joke about me or whatever. And it was like the worst thing in the world. And I hate it here and everybody hates me and what am I doing here? And then my neighbor would bring me tortillas, you know, fresh off the plancha. And I'd be like, oh my God, this is the best ever. You know, it was just like up and down. Crazy roller coaster of emotions. And there was times where I felt like huge failure and nobody wanted me there. But overall, like, you can't have an experience like that and, you know, to learn so much about other people in a different way of life. Completely different. Like all the way that I function and think in the States just doesn't work down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, that's one of the big reasons the Peace Corps was established."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, your time serving the country is appreciated. I don't know if there's anything you want to add, any, um, thing maybe?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.200200000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. A lot of times I hated it while I was there. I've always been kind of an even keeled person. And during my service, I've never been on such an emotional roller coaster. Like, you know, I feel like, you know, somebody said something, you know, made some bad joke about me or whatever. And it was like the worst thing in the world. And I hate it here and everybody hates me and what am I doing here? And then my neighbor would bring me tortillas, you know, fresh off the plancha. And I'd be like, oh my God, this is the best ever. You know, it was just like up and down. Crazy roller coaster of emotions. And there was times where I felt like huge failure and nobody wanted me there. But overall, like, you can't have an experience like that and, you know, to learn so much about other people in a different way of life. Completely different. Like all the way that I function and think in the States just doesn't work down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, that's one of the big reasons the Peace Corps was established."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, your time serving the country is appreciated. I don't know if there's anything you want to add, any, um, thing maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. One thing, you know, I'm super excited about this initiative and hopefully people outside of the Peace Corps sphere will listen to these and hear more about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The oral history project?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.7780000000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, your time serving the country is appreciated. I don't know if there's anything you want to add, any, um, thing maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. One thing, you know, I'm super excited about this initiative and hopefully people outside of the Peace Corps sphere will listen to these and hear more about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The oral history project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes, exactly. Because I feel that, you know, like you said, we've done a service to our country. We weren't out there with guns fighting. But I think, you know, our presence in these countries, I like to think, oh okay, I did a little piece that will help the local people and their goals. But really, I think opening the door and just having better relations and people understanding us and us understanding them and bringing it back, I feel personally is as big of a contribution as our military. And yet everybody sees a soldier and says thank you, and I thank them too. I'm not diminishing that. But I was out there. I put my life on the line and did not have any way to protect myself.\n\nYou know, I knew a volunteer who him and his girlfriend were kidnapped and tortured. And, you know, and other volunteers have lost their lives. And we are put, like Guatemala was a super scary place when I was there. It was not safe at all. I felt safe in my little town. But any time I traveled outside of my town, it was scary. And we're targets a lot of times. And, you know, we're not given guns or a whole group of people around us to protect us. We're thrown out there like on our own. Okay, fine. Have fun. Bye bye. See you when you leave. And I feel that that isn't recognized, where we're peace building and community building like the military does. But they have so much support. And as Peace Corps volunteers, we don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Uh huh."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.42, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. One thing, you know, I'm super excited about this initiative and hopefully people outside of the Peace Corps sphere will listen to these and hear more about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The oral history project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes, exactly. Because I feel that, you know, like you said, we've done a service to our country. We weren't out there with guns fighting. But I think, you know, our presence in these countries, I like to think, oh okay, I did a little piece that will help the local people and their goals. But really, I think opening the door and just having better relations and people understanding us and us understanding them and bringing it back, I feel personally is as big of a contribution as our military. And yet everybody sees a soldier and says thank you, and I thank them too. I'm not diminishing that. But I was out there. I put my life on the line and did not have any way to protect myself.\n\nYou know, I knew a volunteer who him and his girlfriend were kidnapped and tortured. And, you know, and other volunteers have lost their lives. And we are put, like Guatemala was a super scary place when I was there. It was not safe at all. I felt safe in my little town. But any time I traveled outside of my town, it was scary. And we're targets a lot of times. And, you know, we're not given guns or a whole group of people around us to protect us. We're thrown out there like on our own. Okay, fine. Have fun. Bye bye. See you when you leave. And I feel that that isn't recognized, where we're peace building and community building like the military does. But they have so much support. And as Peace Corps volunteers, we don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If that makes sense."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. No, absolutely. But, you know, you touched on something. I, uh, we didn't really discuss the conditions in the country when you were in Guatemala. Maybe you could elaborate on that a little bit. Why was it as dangerous as?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they would, um, so certain areas of the country were off limits. Like I said, in the first year, the Petén, which is the whole northern section of the country, most of it's jungle. That was like crazy dangerous, wild wild west up there. So we were not allowed to visit or travel up that way at all. The second year they opened it up and I visited there no incident. But that, the one Peace Corps volunteer I knew who got kidnapped, it was actually up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, you know, it was, it was just not. I felt very safe in my community because it was small. Everybody knew me and they were very pro law abiding. They love their police force things. A lot of towns were not that way. They had vigilantes and militias and stuff. So it was interesting when I went to Honduras, other than one city was kind of notorious. It was not the capital, but kind of one of the bigger, bigger cities right outside the capital. Super dangerous. So they were like, do not go there, ever. But other than that, that country was so peaceful. Like I never was scared to travel. I would fall asleep on a bus and nothing would happen to me. And so it's shocking to me now. And I don't know if this is still the case, but as of like five years ago, all of a sudden, Honduras is the murder capital of the world. And I was like, it was so peaceful when I lived there.\n\nSo, yeah, in Honduras, you know, I would go out to a dance club and then walk half an hour to my house at 2:00 A.M. Never worried, never had an incident in Honduras. Now I would not go out to a city and do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different experiences."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00157:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, you know, it was, it was just not. I felt very safe in my community because it was small. Everybody knew me and they were very pro law abiding. They love their police force things. A lot of towns were not that way. They had vigilantes and militias and stuff. So it was interesting when I went to Honduras, other than one city was kind of notorious. It was not the capital, but kind of one of the bigger, bigger cities right outside the capital. Super dangerous. So they were like, do not go there, ever. But other than that, that country was so peaceful. Like I never was scared to travel. I would fall asleep on a bus and nothing would happen to me. And so it's shocking to me now. And I don't know if this is still the case, but as of like five years ago, all of a sudden, Honduras is the murder capital of the world. And I was like, it was so peaceful when I lived there.\n\nSo, yeah, in Honduras, you know, I would go out to a dance club and then walk half an hour to my house at 2:00 A.M. Never worried, never had an incident in Honduras. Now I would not go out to a city and do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different experiences."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Each volunteer says their experience is very different from someone else's. And here you had two very varied experiences, both in the work you did and the environment and culture. Well, unless you have anything else you want to add, I think we'll finish the interview. And again, thanks for your service."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00518:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 22, "return_to_go": 47.024977, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I went over the hour and a half already?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no you didn’t.\\n\\n [Tape change]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. Where did we leave off?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were talking about going and having Italian food for the first time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and Kahlua."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00718:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 41.49936995473254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was an amazing event. I think after almost 36 years the real heroes that need to be recognized on the Shuttle program were the pilots, the astronauts that flew Enterprise for its first separation flights. Because without validating it and taking it up to 40,000 feet, separating from the 747 and gliding it for the first time into the dry lake bed at Edwards—not knowing that it was going to glide, that the flight controls and the brakes were going to work and it was going to stop, and do all the things that it was supposed to do—the astronauts and the missions we’ve flown and the [International] Space Station is all great great stuff, but without that first ALT team and Fred [W.] Haise [Jr.], [C.] Gordon Fullerton, Bob [Robert L.] Crippen—those guys are the ones that really set the scene for the things that we continue to do today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you out at Edwards for any of the testing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at Palmdale for the whole duration of Enterprise build, and then we went to Edwards and facilitated Edwards. Built the mate/demate hangar and the facility to pick up the orbiter and stack it on top of the 747, for the whole duration of the ALT program. I’ve been engaged with every orbiter, every build, every modification that was performed, whether it was at Palmdale or Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like members of your family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the people that we worked with have just been incredible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was quite an undertaking, just moving the orbiter."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00718:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 40.55485550525838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at Palmdale for the whole duration of Enterprise build, and then we went to Edwards and facilitated Edwards. Built the mate/demate hangar and the facility to pick up the orbiter and stack it on top of the 747, for the whole duration of the ALT program. I’ve been engaged with every orbiter, every build, every modification that was performed, whether it was at Palmdale or Edwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like members of your family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the people that we worked with have just been incredible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was quite an undertaking, just moving the orbiter."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We used to transport it overland. We had a huge transporter that we would put the vehicle on and literally transport it down city streets. I can remember prepping the city streets prior to Enterprise’s first trip down—used to be called Tenth Street, now it’s called Challenger Way. We removed stop signs, streetlights, telephone poles, trees to make it wide enough to accommodate the width of the wings for a 35-mile overland trip out to Edwards.\\n\\n I can remember that first day that we transported Enterprise. The people lined up on the streets. The nucleus of the public didn’t really know what the Space Shuttle was or what it was going to look like. The oohs and ahs and the applause was—goose bumps, it was pretty amazing. Then of course the rest is history because everybody in the world knows the Space Shuttle and for the most part supports the program. So it was amazing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you part of the caravan?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00718:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 38.949634972196876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of the folks came from Palmdale. Some of the folks came from Florida [NASA Kennedy Space Center]. Then at the time NASA was the prime contractor, we had a lot of NASA folks both from [NASA] Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California], from Edwards, and then from Houston [Texas, Johnson Space Center] and Florida, that we engaged with.\\n\\n As things grew, I grew. I became a supervisor, then a manager, responsible for a variety of things. When the program was over we came back to Palmdale and we all started working on [Space Shuttle] Columbia [OV-102]. Columbia was a totally different vehicle, because it was a space-rated vehicle. Enterprise was just to validate the airworthiness of a flight vehicle and demonstrate that it could do the things as advertised."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you mentioned you came back, started working on Columbia. Had you previously started? Were there already components and [had] parts arrived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was coming in, yes. As we were doing ALT, a lot of the components were starting to come in. We had a team of folks that were just receiving the components and placing them in the hangar and doing some work on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were your teams pretty solidified from Enterprise to Columbia? Or did you start to have more additions of personnel or replacements of personnel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the peak of Enterprise we probably had 300 people. At the peak of Columbia we had at least 1,000. But it was a totally different aircraft. We were developing tile, we were installing tile. Enterprise did not have tile as thermal protection as a space-rated vehicle. It had foam tile which simulated the appearance of the real tile. Columbia had far more flight controls and instruments and components of a real space vehicle—the APU [auxiliary power unit] system, all the cooling systems for the LRUs [line/lowest replaceable units]. We had to install all that; Enterprise didn’t have all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find one of the components more challenging as you were bringing Columbia online?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00718:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 30.163555074115674, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn’t easy. There was a huge effort to disassemble it at Vandenberg. Fifty-two semiloads of equipment and the structure we brought to Palmdale. Then about a 14-month effort to go facilitate it and erect it and validate it before we used it for Endeavour. Huge undertaking. Once again, the right people in the right jobs. We had dedicated guys we put on it. Hired one of the guys that worked for the crew that put it in Vandenberg to help us disassemble it, hired him to come help us put it back together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of time period were you looking at to accomplish this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did it all in 14 months. That was a huge task, because the footing that each one of the poles, uprights for the OLF—they were like 60-foot in the ground, and they were 8 feet around rebar. We not only built the rebar on the ground, then we had to crane them up in the air and put them down in the hole, and then pour the cement around them. That was a huge task. Multiple cranes to erect it and put it together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was quite a sight to see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The sight was the first time we picked up the orbiter and unloaded the orbiter at Palmdale. That was a huge event not only for Palmdale, for everybody involved, because it was another historical evolution of the program. Now we could bring vehicles from Florida to Palmdale and send them right out of Palmdale, no longer have to take them overland like we used to transport them to Edwards. So that was a huge savings for the program and a huge event for being able to transport vehicles back and forth to California more expeditiously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it your idea to move that piece?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00718:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 20.149, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually I’ve been to the Cape numerous times. I’m going to the next launch here in November [STS-133]. I’ve been out there for every landing at Edwards, because I still support the program. I go out there from the Palmdale standpoint, I bring skills and techs and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back on all these years, what do you consider to be the most challenging aspect of your role in the Space Shuttle program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the personal side. You get so wrapped up in work and what you’re doing. It’s not your work and what you’re doing, it’s what it’s going to do. I probably took away from family time back then worrying about building the Space Shuttle. That’s okay, my kids are cool with it.\\n\\n I think the astronauts are the coolest guys on Earth. They come in and they just want to be a part of what’s going on. They buddy with the people, they have a lot of friends, they make new friends. What was really neat is over the years as they would come back to Palmdale for whatever reason they wouldn’t forget your name. I hadn’t seen that guy in ten years and he remembered my name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the things that you look at, and you always value and treasure forever. There’s Gordon Fullerton. Gordon Fullerton lives in Lancaster, and he is just an incredible man. We were out at Edwards, ALT, ’77, ’78; today I can see him and he’s like, “How you doing, Bob? Haven’t seen you in ten years.” A lot of cool people at the Cape. You don’t see them every day, but when you do see them they remember who you are and the things you’ve done. When I hang it up here in a couple years, that’s probably when I look back and say, yes this has been cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you feel has been your most significant contribution? What have you been glad you’ve been able to do for the program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 44.94280900555488, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don’t really know. I did it that way because I didn’t have any money! When I got out of high school, I worked for a year before I even went to junior college. I went to junior college while I got a scholarship to Michigan State, I didn’t have enough money to go there. So, I had to go back to work. And since the Korean War started on Sunday and I started my job on Monday, and I was 20 years old, that was—I was prime bait for the draft. And so, I was going to get drafted right away. And, I don’t know. It just turned out perfect for me. So, I might add that, you know, that I went into the Air Force—I’d never been in an airplane. Never been off the ground. I’d already joined the Air Force, was in the Air Force, was accepted for pilot training before I had my first ride. So, fortunately I liked it!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your flying career involved with primarily at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when I finished up flying school I went to—the Korean War was on, I went to gunnery school; and over in Korea I flew F-86s. Flew 145 combat missions. I flew my last one 2 hours after the armistice was signed—with a lot of trepidation. Nobody wants to get shot down after the war is over! But anyway, I did it. They allowed us to—they were very generous. They allowed us to fight for another 12 hours. So anyway, when that was over I came back and I was in a fighter squadron in Maine, then another one in New Jersey, and then I went back to school at the University of Michigan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To what I think would be a stellar academic career. As I recall, you graduated top of your class."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One would get the impression that perhaps the military experience really gave you that sense of purpose."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 51.90470247599367, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One would get the impression that perhaps the military experience really gave you that sense of purpose."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it focused me a lot more. I think probably the thing that really focused me was when I was going through pilot training. If you were an aviation cadet that came into the program as a civilian, if you washed out of flying school you went back to being a civilian. Because the Korean War was on, there were a lot of people trying to join the Air Force and get into pilot training. And in a class—entry time from when you applied to when you got into a class, sort of—you had to stretch out. And my deferment from the draft was fixed, and the class I was going to get into stretched out past that time. So, I was notified by the Air Force I had a choice of either letting that deferment expire and taking my chances on whether the Army would call me before the Air Force did or joining the Air Force as a private. But I elected to do that. And then now I was already in the military, and if I washed out of pilot training I went back to being a private or an enlisted man for four years. And four years to somebody who’s that age is a lifetime! And I really didn’t want to do that for four years. So, I got a lot more focused in what I was doing!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you one of these people for whom flying was just instinctive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it turned out it—that’s right. It was, really. Having never been in an airplane and no idea what it was all about, and I think I was the first guy to solo in my pilot training class—even though there were guys in there that had 100 hours of flying time before they ever came into the Air Force. So, I did it very quickly. I just took to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After graduation at the top of your class in Michigan, you went in then in Test Pilot School."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 18, "return_to_go": 56.56078052888186, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it focused me a lot more. I think probably the thing that really focused me was when I was going through pilot training. If you were an aviation cadet that came into the program as a civilian, if you washed out of flying school you went back to being a civilian. Because the Korean War was on, there were a lot of people trying to join the Air Force and get into pilot training. And in a class—entry time from when you applied to when you got into a class, sort of—you had to stretch out. And my deferment from the draft was fixed, and the class I was going to get into stretched out past that time. So, I was notified by the Air Force I had a choice of either letting that deferment expire and taking my chances on whether the Army would call me before the Air Force did or joining the Air Force as a private. But I elected to do that. And then now I was already in the military, and if I washed out of pilot training I went back to being a private or an enlisted man for four years. And four years to somebody who’s that age is a lifetime! And I really didn’t want to do that for four years. So, I got a lot more focused in what I was doing!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you one of these people for whom flying was just instinctive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it turned out it—that’s right. It was, really. Having never been in an airplane and no idea what it was all about, and I think I was the first guy to solo in my pilot training class—even though there were guys in there that had 100 hours of flying time before they ever came into the Air Force. So, I did it very quickly. I just took to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After graduation at the top of your class in Michigan, you went in then in Test Pilot School."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I went right from school—right from the University of Michigan out to the Test Pilot School, and I went through that in the class of—’59C I think it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What motivated the decision to go that direction as opposed to going off into civilian life?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 22.979147302564282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you really became kind of the core, as you look back on it—the management core, the leadership core of the Apollo Program. And also, a lot of the leadership and command responsibilities for Gemini. Did you have much involvement with Mercury at that time? Or was it pretty much straight into Gemini and Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no. See, when we got there the—by the time we got to NASA, it was around the 1st of October of ’62. [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] , [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom, [John H.] Glenn [Jr.] , [M. Scott] Carpenter had already flown. And we got there early in October. We were told we were going to have like a month to sort of get settled in. But the second day we were there, I think, we were told we were going to leave for the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] that night for [Walter M.] Schirra’s [Jr.] flight. So, we went out down there and we watched it. But we didn’t really contribute anything to it. And then, when [L. Gordon] Cooper [Jr.] flew, we went down about three or four weeks before the flight and just watched the countdowns but we didn’t—we made no contribution whatsoever. As a matter of fact, we were probably in everybody’s way. But at any rate, we were down there on a learning experience to see what it was like before the flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And of course, Cooper’s was the last of the Mercury flights."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the last of the Mercury Seven."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you focused very early on, on Gemini and, I presume, Apollo."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.087941447293648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no. See, when we got there the—by the time we got to NASA, it was around the 1st of October of ’62. [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] , [Virgil I. “Gus”] Grissom, [John H.] Glenn [Jr.] , [M. Scott] Carpenter had already flown. And we got there early in October. We were told we were going to have like a month to sort of get settled in. But the second day we were there, I think, we were told we were going to leave for the Cape [Canaveral, Florida] that night for [Walter M.] Schirra’s [Jr.] flight. So, we went out down there and we watched it. But we didn’t really contribute anything to it. And then, when [L. Gordon] Cooper [Jr.] flew, we went down about three or four weeks before the flight and just watched the countdowns but we didn’t—we made no contribution whatsoever. As a matter of fact, we were probably in everybody’s way. But at any rate, we were down there on a learning experience to see what it was like before the flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And of course, Cooper’s was the last of the Mercury flights."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the last of the Mercury Seven."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you focused very early on, on Gemini and, I presume, Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Well, when we got there, we were all—the nine of us were assigned engineering jobs, engineering responsibilities. And those engineering responsibilities focused on Gemini and Apollo; so you had the same responsibility across both programs. Mine was guidance and navigation, so I looked after the computers, such as they were, in Gemini and the software programs. And then the same thing over in Apollo, all the guidance and navigation stuff—the telescopes, the computers, the software, etc., for the Astronaut Office. I wasn’t in charge of it for the Program Office, but it was the astronaut input to these things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of a relationship did you guys have with the first group?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.986601608104053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the last of the Mercury Seven."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, you focused very early on, on Gemini and, I presume, Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Well, when we got there, we were all—the nine of us were assigned engineering jobs, engineering responsibilities. And those engineering responsibilities focused on Gemini and Apollo; so you had the same responsibility across both programs. Mine was guidance and navigation, so I looked after the computers, such as they were, in Gemini and the software programs. And then the same thing over in Apollo, all the guidance and navigation stuff—the telescopes, the computers, the software, etc., for the Astronaut Office. I wasn’t in charge of it for the Program Office, but it was the astronaut input to these things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of a relationship did you guys have with the first group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time it was more of a—well, it’s really hard to explain. They were involved in what they were doing. Some of them had already flown. Al [Shepard] was sort of he was the head of the Office, as I recall. Maybe Deke [Donald K. Slayton] was; I don’t remember how it was at that time. But—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They—Slayton and Shepard had both been removed from flight status weren’t they?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.0962240090045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Well, when we got there, we were all—the nine of us were assigned engineering jobs, engineering responsibilities. And those engineering responsibilities focused on Gemini and Apollo; so you had the same responsibility across both programs. Mine was guidance and navigation, so I looked after the computers, such as they were, in Gemini and the software programs. And then the same thing over in Apollo, all the guidance and navigation stuff—the telescopes, the computers, the software, etc., for the Astronaut Office. I wasn’t in charge of it for the Program Office, but it was the astronaut input to these things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of a relationship did you guys have with the first group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time it was more of a—well, it’s really hard to explain. They were involved in what they were doing. Some of them had already flown. Al [Shepard] was sort of he was the head of the Office, as I recall. Maybe Deke [Donald K. Slayton] was; I don’t remember how it was at that time. But—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They—Slayton and Shepard had both been removed from flight status weren’t they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think so. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were still on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.106915565560556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time it was more of a—well, it’s really hard to explain. They were involved in what they were doing. Some of them had already flown. Al [Shepard] was sort of he was the head of the Office, as I recall. Maybe Deke [Donald K. Slayton] was; I don’t remember how it was at that time. But—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They—Slayton and Shepard had both been removed from flight status weren’t they?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think so. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were still on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Shepard hadn’t been. Slayton had. So, I guess Slayton was the head of the Astronaut Office, because it was very small in those days. John Glenn was involved in all of the hoopla after his flight, plus his attempt to run at political office, and he got hurt. And so, he was really kind of away from the thing. Although he was—he welcomed—he and Annie welcomed us all and invited us over to dinner and things like that. So, he made a real special effort. He was really a nice guy. I like John.\\n\\n The other guys were sort of involved in either flying or getting ready for a flight or having been in a flight, and so it was a—they were kind of over here, and we were kind of over here. There was no animosity. Don’t misunderstand me. And they tried to help as best they could; but they had other things going on. And so, we sort of did our thing and they did their thing.\\n\\n It wasn’t until we really got into Gemini that we started working together. Gus was looking after that. So, everybody that had any engineering responsibilities in Gemini always worked with Gus to make sure that it was compatible with the other stuff that was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you characterize Slayton and Shepard as managers at that early point in their career?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.823352550074755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Shepard hadn’t been. Slayton had. So, I guess Slayton was the head of the Astronaut Office, because it was very small in those days. John Glenn was involved in all of the hoopla after his flight, plus his attempt to run at political office, and he got hurt. And so, he was really kind of away from the thing. Although he was—he welcomed—he and Annie welcomed us all and invited us over to dinner and things like that. So, he made a real special effort. He was really a nice guy. I like John.\\n\\n The other guys were sort of involved in either flying or getting ready for a flight or having been in a flight, and so it was a—they were kind of over here, and we were kind of over here. There was no animosity. Don’t misunderstand me. And they tried to help as best they could; but they had other things going on. And so, we sort of did our thing and they did their thing.\\n\\n It wasn’t until we really got into Gemini that we started working together. Gus was looking after that. So, everybody that had any engineering responsibilities in Gemini always worked with Gus to make sure that it was compatible with the other stuff that was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you characterize Slayton and Shepard as managers at that early point in their career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d just as soon not talk about my opinions of those guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, they’re both dead. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let that go."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.581502833416394, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d just as soon not talk about my opinions of those guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, they’re both dead. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let that go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any particular thing that stands out in your mind or that you recall about the meshing of the military culture of the astronaut corps with the civilian nature of an agency like NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 30.64611425935155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, they’re both dead. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let that go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any particular thing that stands out in your mind or that you recall about the meshing of the military culture of the astronaut corps with the civilian nature of an agency like NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did all that go?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.378774972338892, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a little—it was a lot looser. The chain of command was a lot looser. There was no rank. I mean, Air Force Captain or Air Force Major, and the Navy Captain, I mean the rank didn’t play a part in it. Our rank was what our job was, not what our military rank was. We had civilians, and where would you stick them? Although I guess they were the equivalent of full Colonels! We always used to like to fly around with Elliot [M.] See [Jr.] and Neil [A.] Armstrong, because we’d get really good treatment when we got to a military base!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that the civilian emphasis was really a top-level political decision at the time, and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. The reason for that was that we had tracking stations all around the world in foreign countries, and if this thing had any—smacked at all of military then there would be political repercussions—or there could be political repercussions in each of those countries. Every one of them had a different political situation, and if it looked like these countries were supporting an American military operation, then there could be a lot of problems, either domestically or with some of their foreign relations. So, this was strictly a civilian project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This next question may get into what [Benjamin] Disraeli called “lies, damned lies, and statistics.” But one of the things that stands out, and the kind of—stands out in my recollection, very unscientifically, is that early on in the astronaut program, space program, there seemed to be an inordinate number of training accidents and fatalities among the astronaut corps. You lost one out of the first group; two of your group of nine; four out of the next group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we lost a lot of people. I think there may even have been more. Yeah, because Gus got killed in that—and Elliot See was killed in an airplane accident. Ed White was killed in that spacecraft fire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. There was a lot of attrition."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 27.87503083004801, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we lost a lot of people. I think there may even have been more. Yeah, because Gus got killed in that—and Elliot See was killed in an airplane accident. Ed White was killed in that spacecraft fire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. There was a lot of attrition."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Roger B.] Chaffee—was killed in the fire. And [Clifton] C. C. Williams [Jr.] in an airplane accident. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Freeman."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—Ted [Theodore] Freeman in an airplane accident. Charlie [Charles A.] Bassett [II] in an airplane accident. Then Ed [Edward G.] Givens [Jr.] was killed in an auto accident. Yeah, we had a lot of guys get killed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there any explanation for that, that you can—looking back on it? Or is it just the luck of the draw?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.750034255608902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Roger B.] Chaffee—was killed in the fire. And [Clifton] C. C. Williams [Jr.] in an airplane accident. And—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Freeman."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—Ted [Theodore] Freeman in an airplane accident. Charlie [Charles A.] Bassett [II] in an airplane accident. Then Ed [Edward G.] Givens [Jr.] was killed in an auto accident. Yeah, we had a lot of guys get killed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there any explanation for that, that you can—looking back on it? Or is it just the luck of the draw?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the fire—that was a problem with not knowing enough about what was going on in the world of spaceflight. We were all novices. The airplane accidents were just sort of things that happen. They all came about different ways. Freeman hit a goose in the traffic pattern. Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were—got caught in some bad weather and ran into a building. C. C. Williams just had an airplane accident—airplane problem just was flying from the Cape back to Houston. He was on my backup crew at the time. Givens had an automobile accident, and those things happen. It was just that we had, you know, the loss rate in the group right behind ours was really high. And as a whole, I mean, the 30 guys that we had that flew; we have eight or nine—seven or eight guys got killed. That’s quite a bunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Overall the record has been very good. But for the early groups, it seemed to be much more in line with what you expect for test pilots."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 31.944482506232113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—Ted [Theodore] Freeman in an airplane accident. Charlie [Charles A.] Bassett [II] in an airplane accident. Then Ed [Edward G.] Givens [Jr.] was killed in an auto accident. Yeah, we had a lot of guys get killed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there any explanation for that, that you can—looking back on it? Or is it just the luck of the draw?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the fire—that was a problem with not knowing enough about what was going on in the world of spaceflight. We were all novices. The airplane accidents were just sort of things that happen. They all came about different ways. Freeman hit a goose in the traffic pattern. Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were—got caught in some bad weather and ran into a building. C. C. Williams just had an airplane accident—airplane problem just was flying from the Cape back to Houston. He was on my backup crew at the time. Givens had an automobile accident, and those things happen. It was just that we had, you know, the loss rate in the group right behind ours was really high. And as a whole, I mean, the 30 guys that we had that flew; we have eight or nine—seven or eight guys got killed. That’s quite a bunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Overall the record has been very good. But for the early groups, it seemed to be much more in line with what you expect for test pilots."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think if I remember the statistic on that one. It’s 1 in 4 loss rate."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 34.3827583402579, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was the fire—that was a problem with not knowing enough about what was going on in the world of spaceflight. We were all novices. The airplane accidents were just sort of things that happen. They all came about different ways. Freeman hit a goose in the traffic pattern. Elliot See and Charlie Bassett were—got caught in some bad weather and ran into a building. C. C. Williams just had an airplane accident—airplane problem just was flying from the Cape back to Houston. He was on my backup crew at the time. Givens had an automobile accident, and those things happen. It was just that we had, you know, the loss rate in the group right behind ours was really high. And as a whole, I mean, the 30 guys that we had that flew; we have eight or nine—seven or eight guys got killed. That’s quite a bunch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Overall the record has been very good. But for the early groups, it seemed to be much more in line with what you expect for test pilots."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think if I remember the statistic on that one. It’s 1 in 4 loss rate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. As a matter of fact, the airplanes they got killed in were all T-38s, which is a pretty reliable airplane. But that’s what flying’s about!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I recall after each one of those accidents, there seemed to be a hue and cry from the press and from members of Congress saying, “These things are just too dangerous. We can’t afford risking these highly trained, experienced people. And we need—” And then there would be a study and a look at whether we really needed high-performance aircraft as part of the training."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.07269920886401, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s an interesting question. I—when you say the Astronaut Office, that implies that there’s this homogeneous, uniform opinion which never existed. It may today, but I don’t know. It never existed then. So, there was always disagreement amongst the astronauts about what the relationship with the flight controller ought to be. I got along with them great! And I would share anything with them. It didn’t make any difference what they wanted. I mean, I didn’t have any secrets. And so, I never had a problem like that. But some of the guys—some of the astronauts didn’t get along that well with them!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And some of the astronauts didn’t get along that well with the contractors, because they were, I thought, overbearing, demanding, idiotic, unreasonable, and I mean, that didn’t contribute anything to anybody whatsoever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, in your view, that would have been more of an individual difference with commanders than it was a policy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "An individual relationship, yes. My crews always got along great with them. As a matter of fact, I always looked at it as sort of a flight team, whether it was Flight Operations Directorate or Flight Crew Directorate, or whatever we called them in those days. It was sort of a flight team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was one of the things we were talking about earlier, of how that team came together and coalesced, really seemed to have gotten itself on the right track by the time we got into Apollo. And the impression that it may have formed up in Gemini. And I think you said that really this was taken care of before the Gemini Program got rolling."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.8618589698177, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It moves—that moves the engine back and forth, and it was going like this [gestures]. Fortunately, I had flown a test like that on Apollo 9—it was called a stroking test—where we actually oscillated the engine while we were firing it, and everything held together. So, I knew then that it was okay; but it had to—we had to make sure that it was steering. If the nozzle or the motion it went through was like—could be like this [gestures]. If it went from side-to-side like that, that meant it wasn’t doing any steering at all. But if it went off of an angle over here and just oscillated a little bit about that angle and about this angle and about this angle, it would steer the spacecraft. So, we had to determine that.\\n\\n And we found after some test and very quick tests that, indeed, it would control even though it was oscillating like that. But if we had found that it wouldn’t control, there was no doubt in my mind what my decision would have been. The Mission Rules said “come home,” and that’s exactly what we would have done, was to come home. And all the testing I had the guys doing was to allow me to find out whether we were going to control or not control. The decision after that was, well, at least the come home decision was easy. Staying there was still a little difficult! But it—but that was how those Mission Rules worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we get out of Gemini, I want to ask you a trivia question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did Jim McDivitt, Frank Borman, and Neil Armstrong all have in common?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if my research is correct, you were—in the history of NASA, you were the three rookie commanders. You were given—your first flight assignment was a command assignment."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.068732188686333, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did Jim McDivitt, Frank Borman, and Neil Armstrong all have in common?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if my research is correct, you were—in the history of NASA, you were the three rookie commanders. You were given—your first flight assignment was a command assignment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess so. Well, Frank yeah, Frank was the commander of our backup crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course. Yes. And that had to be the case in Mercury because we had all we didn’t have flight experience. But beginning with Gemini—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 24.520813542984815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if my research is correct, you were—in the history of NASA, you were the three rookie commanders. You were given—your first flight assignment was a command assignment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess so. Well, Frank yeah, Frank was the commander of our backup crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course. Yes. And that had to be the case in Mercury because we had all we didn’t have flight experience. But beginning with Gemini—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They were all rookies! Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—we had the opportunity to fly an experienced space traveler as a commander, but you, Borman, and Armstrong were all selected for your first flight as a commander. And—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.35645949220535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I guess so. Well, Frank yeah, Frank was the commander of our backup crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course. Yes. And that had to be the case in Mercury because we had all we didn’t have flight experience. But beginning with Gemini—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They were all rookies! Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—we had the opportunity to fly an experienced space traveler as a commander, but you, Borman, and Armstrong were all selected for your first flight as a commander. And—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I hadn’t focused on that. I will tell you a funny story about the—getting picked to fly on Gemini IV. I was called in and told I was going to command it, and then some time later it was announced at an astronaut pilots’ meeting and then finally they were going to make the public announcement. And so, I thought I’d tell my kids about it.\\n\\n So, one Saturday morning we were sitting at our—sitting there having breakfast at a long table we had. And so, we finally got to this dramatic moment and I said, “Kids, I’m going to tell you something really important.” And, let’s see, this was in about ’64 or so. I think they were, like, eight and seven and five or so. And so, I tell them that, you know, “You know that dad’s an astronaut and the astronauts fly in space. I just want to let you know that I’m going to fly in space soon.” And my older boy, Mike, who was probably seven or eight, says, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school.” And then my daughter Ann said, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school, too.” And my son Patrick said, “Dad, there’s a fly in the milk bottle.” He was really a—!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any inkling as to how the decision was made to put you on that flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.396066102450387, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. They were all rookies! Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—we had the opportunity to fly an experienced space traveler as a commander, but you, Borman, and Armstrong were all selected for your first flight as a commander. And—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I hadn’t focused on that. I will tell you a funny story about the—getting picked to fly on Gemini IV. I was called in and told I was going to command it, and then some time later it was announced at an astronaut pilots’ meeting and then finally they were going to make the public announcement. And so, I thought I’d tell my kids about it.\\n\\n So, one Saturday morning we were sitting at our—sitting there having breakfast at a long table we had. And so, we finally got to this dramatic moment and I said, “Kids, I’m going to tell you something really important.” And, let’s see, this was in about ’64 or so. I think they were, like, eight and seven and five or so. And so, I tell them that, you know, “You know that dad’s an astronaut and the astronauts fly in space. I just want to let you know that I’m going to fly in space soon.” And my older boy, Mike, who was probably seven or eight, says, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school.” And then my daughter Ann said, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school, too.” And my son Patrick said, “Dad, there’s a fly in the milk bottle.” He was really a—!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any inkling as to how the decision was made to put you on that flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was the best-looking astronaut there was, and so they picked me on looks in there. Personality! No, I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was one of those mysteries of how the how the crew assignments were made."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.66229566938932, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I hadn’t focused on that. I will tell you a funny story about the—getting picked to fly on Gemini IV. I was called in and told I was going to command it, and then some time later it was announced at an astronaut pilots’ meeting and then finally they were going to make the public announcement. And so, I thought I’d tell my kids about it.\\n\\n So, one Saturday morning we were sitting at our—sitting there having breakfast at a long table we had. And so, we finally got to this dramatic moment and I said, “Kids, I’m going to tell you something really important.” And, let’s see, this was in about ’64 or so. I think they were, like, eight and seven and five or so. And so, I tell them that, you know, “You know that dad’s an astronaut and the astronauts fly in space. I just want to let you know that I’m going to fly in space soon.” And my older boy, Mike, who was probably seven or eight, says, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school.” And then my daughter Ann said, “Oh yeah, dad, I heard that at school, too.” And my son Patrick said, “Dad, there’s a fly in the milk bottle.” He was really a—!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any inkling as to how the decision was made to put you on that flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was the best-looking astronaut there was, and so they picked me on looks in there. Personality! No, I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was one of those mysteries of how the how the crew assignments were made."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something that Deke and Al kind of kept to themselves, I guess."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.180328521543686, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was the best-looking astronaut there was, and so they picked me on looks in there. Personality! No, I have no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was one of those mysteries of how the how the crew assignments were made."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something that Deke and Al kind of kept to themselves, I guess."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any discussion within the—in your group at the time as to why one person would be singled out for a—there wasn’t so much a basis in seniority to make that sort of thing. In other words, Ed White had about the same seniority that you did. But—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 27.978142801715205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something that Deke and Al kind of kept to themselves, I guess."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any discussion within the—in your group at the time as to why one person would be singled out for a—there wasn’t so much a basis in seniority to make that sort of thing. In other words, Ed White had about the same seniority that you did. But—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to what I said earlier. I had the—I was the best-looking guy and I had the greatest personality, and so how do you go wrong?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably as good an answer as any. What was—well, you talked a bit about your relationship with Ed White and the fact that you had known each other in college, gone through selection together in that group. How was Ed’s selection for that mission handled? Was that something that you were selected as commander and then asked who do you want on your crew? Or were you selected as a group? As a pair?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.38860788555869, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. None. None. And Ed had a very weak stomach. He had a weak stomach. Every time we went up in a zero-g airplane, he got sick. As soon as we landed in the water, he was sick. I mean, he was—he had a very, very sensitive stomach to that. You know, he never got sick flying airplanes and the crazy motions that we did. And we were short on fuel, so the spacecraft was just tumbling for a couple of days. Just around like this [gestures]. And it didn’t bother him at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the relative ease of your EVA perhaps mislead NASA, for the later ones into thinking that we really understood that process when we didn’t?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that we overreached a lot in the EVA thing to start with. We didn’t do anything. Like I told you, that gun was utterly useless. I’d practiced with it enough and I could run around the air table with it flying, but that was a two-dimensional thing. I could either go this way or that way, and there was no—there were six degrees of freedom. There’s three in motion and three in attitude. We had no attitude freedom whatsoever standing on that table. We were upright. And while you could rotate around this way, you couldn’t go back and forth this way or the other way [McDivitt demonstrates].\\n\\n So, we really were lacking a lot of the degrees of freedom. As soon as we got up in space, the only way you could make that gun work is if you fired it exactly through your center of gravity. And trying to find your center of gravity—we didn’t know where our center of gravity was; so there was no way we could’ve done it accurately. Yeah, that was a oversimplified thing. And fortunately, we didn’t have much gas in the gun and didn’t put out much thrust; so it couldn’t hurt us much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But EVAs, spacewalks on the later flights, [Gemini] IX, X, XI, we had some really serious problems on them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.55288867419716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Yeah. As a matter of fact later on, on Apollo 9, there was a big Mylar balloon up there, I forget what they called it, Echo, I think it was. They wanted to know if we wanted to see Echo. It was out at, like, 800 or 900 miles. And we said, “Oh yeah, let’s look at that.” So, we got the spacecraft oriented around in a certain direction, and I had a six-power telescope in the left-hand window of the spacecraft. And Dave [David R.] Scott went down in the lower equipment bay. He had to use a 28-power telescope down there. And so, they finally said, “Okay, it’s coming up in the sight now.” And Dave said, “Oh yeah, I’ve got it.” He had the telescope tracking it with the computer. And so, I looked out there and, “Oh yeah,” I said, “I can see it.” And Rusty was sitting over in the other window and he didn’t have anything, and he said, “Oh yeah, I can see it, too!” So, we were looking at this thing probably near 1,000 miles.\\n\\n And later on in the flight, they wanted to know if we could—if we wanted to see the ascent stage, which we put in this huge orbit around the Earth. And it was coming down, and it was some thousands of miles away. They wanted to know if we wanted to see it. “Oh yeah, let’s see if we can find it.” So, we put the orbit into our computer and had our telescope track it. And we could see it. Now, we were using a 28-powered telescope, but we could see it out at some number of thousand of miles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was your Apollo booster?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It actually was the ascent stage of the lunar module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was not very large."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were on your Gemini flight, one of the other objectives was to rendezvous with the upper stage."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.16987630466351, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It actually was the ascent stage of the lunar module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was not very large."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were on your Gemini flight, one of the other objectives was to rendezvous with the upper stage."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That didn’t really work out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 51.664877331020335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, everybody—I mean, you know, we weren’t exactly in the dark about what the Moon looked like because we had, I think it was the Surveyor spacecraft that took pretty good photos of it. And we had this other spacecraft that flew right straight into the Moon. I remember being out at JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory; Pasadena, California] the first crash that they had on the Moon, where the [Ranger] spacecraft flew right straight in the Moon. It took a picture, transmitted it; took another picture, transmitted it; took another picture and transmitted it. And the last picture, you know, was only half a picture because it hit the Moon. And you could—I mean, you could guess that it wasn’t really deep. And then we had this other one that actually landed on the Moon that had a scoop on it [Surveyor]. So, we knew that there wasn’t a lot of dust."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were pretty confident the lunar module wasn’t going to get buried in it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. That was not one of my big concerns."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think people today remember or appreciate just how difficult and dangerous Apollo really was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, people in those days didn’t appreciate how difficult and dangerous it was! I mean, we made it look way too easy. When I got into the program, I figured we’d try five, six, eight, ten times before we ever had a successful one. I had no idea in the world it would run as smoothly as it did. You know, that’s why we had the lettered missions. We had—we were going to go on C until we got C done. And then we were going to go on D until we got it done. Then to E. And then F. And then G. The fact that we didn’t even do one of them, I mean, yeah, it was extremely successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the time the crews were assigned, do you think that Deke Slayton, NASA management had a strong inkling that Neil Armstrong’s crew would be the one to land on the Moon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 47.56057885366201, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, I remember Brian well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—he passed away a few years ago—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did he?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my God, I didn’t know that! Yeah. I used to run into Brian in Washington a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, Brian died of cancer a year or so ago."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00422:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 52.845087615180006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did he?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my God, I didn’t know that! Yeah. I used to run into Brian in Washington a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, Brian died of cancer a year or so ago."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my God! That’s terrible. You know, he wrote a really great article about mothering the astronauts after their flights. I’ve got it around here someplace. I don’t even know what magazine it was in. But a great, great article. A good guy. I’m sorry. Well, go ahead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Brian recalled going to a press conference, and it may’ve been the one that you were reflecting on, and he said that it was so beneficial in his view that the press had been in the Control Center when this happened, had been listening to the flight director’s loop, because he said it allowed one of the participants, and he couldn’t remember which one to begin his remarks by saying, “Ladies and gentlemen, you know everything we know. The only thing you don’t know is what we’re going to do about it. And that’s what we’re here to tell you.” And it, in his view, had a tremendous amount to do with garnering public support at the time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00170:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 30.857472, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Except all those studies I did. I’ve got lots of simulations. I can run the Shuttle trajectory just as well as they can, right into orbit. I did the Hercules. Oh, I did a lot of things for some contractors. We worked with Hercules and Eagle Engineering to develop a set of modular rockets. They were all solid rockets that could be used to put up a lot of different payloads, but we couldn’t get NASA to buy it. They didn’t have to build it. They just had to buy it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me ask you just two questions before we close out today. Looking back over your career with NASA and with NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics], what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most success. Oh, you mean for NASA?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For NASA or with NACA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For NASA, the most significant accomplishment was that trajectory program, that trajectory program, for NASA and for the [Johnson] Space Center over here, because there was a big controversy. I see in this list of people that were interviewed that a guy named [Joseph F.] Shea was interviewed. He did come down to work here, but he tried to get that program to go to Headquarters. That was the most significant one. It was more [significant] to the work I did for Apollo and Shuttle, because they impacted programs. The other ones, like the lateral stability aircraft due to high altitude, that’s just technical documentation to educate designers, and there was no real input into projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was your biggest challenge?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00170:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 24.286080000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most success. Oh, you mean for NASA?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For NASA or with NACA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For NASA, the most significant accomplishment was that trajectory program, that trajectory program, for NASA and for the [Johnson] Space Center over here, because there was a big controversy. I see in this list of people that were interviewed that a guy named [Joseph F.] Shea was interviewed. He did come down to work here, but he tried to get that program to go to Headquarters. That was the most significant one. It was more [significant] to the work I did for Apollo and Shuttle, because they impacted programs. The other ones, like the lateral stability aircraft due to high altitude, that’s just technical documentation to educate designers, and there was no real input into projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was your biggest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Skylab Program. [I did the Skylab Program myself. Tom [Thomas F.] Gibson and Ellis Henry did the Apollo Mission Planning Program.] That was a challenge, but we knew how to do it. Tom Gibson and Ellis Henry were just fantastic about completing it in three or four months. [Tom was not with me when Skylab came in, and Ellis was working on trajectories to Mars. Ellis published MSC Internal Note No. 70-FM-89 “Round-Trip Mars Orbital Missions in the 1980s”.] I would guess that maybe it was less than six months, and they were probably the only two persons in the organization who could have done that in that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me ask Rebecca if she has any questions for you today. No?\\n\\n Do you think there’s anything we’ve overlooked? I mean, you did a fantastic job of giving us a sense of your career with NASA and with NACA."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00170:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 25.168000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Skylab Program. [I did the Skylab Program myself. Tom [Thomas F.] Gibson and Ellis Henry did the Apollo Mission Planning Program.] That was a challenge, but we knew how to do it. Tom Gibson and Ellis Henry were just fantastic about completing it in three or four months. [Tom was not with me when Skylab came in, and Ellis was working on trajectories to Mars. Ellis published MSC Internal Note No. 70-FM-89 “Round-Trip Mars Orbital Missions in the 1980s”.] I would guess that maybe it was less than six months, and they were probably the only two persons in the organization who could have done that in that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me ask Rebecca if she has any questions for you today. No?\\n\\n Do you think there’s anything we’ve overlooked? I mean, you did a fantastic job of giving us a sense of your career with NASA and with NACA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, a postscript, postscript. You can use this or you can cut it out if you want to.\\n\\n During the programming of the guidance computer, Dr. [Richard H.] Battin and I were up at Washington, D.C., giving a progress report on the progress of the guidance computer program, always it comes up, arguments about schedules and everything and questions about schedule. Dr. Battin looked out over the audience and—I quote—he said, “NASA’s idea of a crash program is to get [a woman] pregnant and hope for a baby in one month.” [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a great joke."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I had to laugh. That stunned the whole audience. That’s the saying of the decade, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly have a lot of great memories, and you’ve certainly done a lot."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00170:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 23.520000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, a postscript, postscript. You can use this or you can cut it out if you want to.\\n\\n During the programming of the guidance computer, Dr. [Richard H.] Battin and I were up at Washington, D.C., giving a progress report on the progress of the guidance computer program, always it comes up, arguments about schedules and everything and questions about schedule. Dr. Battin looked out over the audience and—I quote—he said, “NASA’s idea of a crash program is to get [a woman] pregnant and hope for a baby in one month.” [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a great joke."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I had to laugh. That stunned the whole audience. That’s the saying of the decade, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly have a lot of great memories, and you’ve certainly done a lot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, there’s a lot of stuff that pops up every now—I don’t have a recall memory. Things will pop up. This will pop up a memory I didn’t even know I had. For instance, like the fires in California. My sister that’s still living is out there. I called her up and said, “What are you trying to do, burn down California?” She’s in Bakersfield, though. I said, “Do you remember that fire when the mountain behind Mercersburg [Pennsylvania] there caught on fire?”\\n\\n She said, “Yeah, but I’m surprised that you know it.”\\n\\n I said, “You must have been about three years old when that happened.”\\n\\n But I don’t know. I mean, those things just pop up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mr. Funk, what’s your favorite memory of Dr. Gilruth, of working with Bob Gilruth? Do you have a special moment that you remember working with him?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.087676984340995, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I learned about Peace Corps when I was eight years old. The commercials on TV advertising Peace Corps and see that and that sort of sparked my interest in, you know, so as a kid just, you know, wanting to travel when I get older. Travel to different countries and meet different people and cultures and things and it instilled right through school, high school, right through college. I remember my senior year in college submitting an application for Peace Corps. And was really surprised when I got accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why were you surprised?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I know at the time, Peace Corps was, there was a lot of people applying. And I just didn't, I guess I just didn't have any, uh. I just didn't think I would get chosen because of the number of people throughout the country that were applying to become volunteers and selected to go in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you done much traveling before, been overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a little bit. I went to England with my roommate. Their father, their parents were stationed in England. Father was a rear admiral in the Navy. And they were going to, he was my roommate at Saint Mary's College in Maryland. And it was during Christmas break. He asked if I wanted to go back with him. And so I took the opportunity to do that and travel back to, um, with him and his brother to England for a couple of weeks during, during the break between semesters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite different from Korea."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.430752204823326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I know at the time, Peace Corps was, there was a lot of people applying. And I just didn't, I guess I just didn't have any, uh. I just didn't think I would get chosen because of the number of people throughout the country that were applying to become volunteers and selected to go in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you done much traveling before, been overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a little bit. I went to England with my roommate. Their father, their parents were stationed in England. Father was a rear admiral in the Navy. And they were going to, he was my roommate at Saint Mary's College in Maryland. And it was during Christmas break. He asked if I wanted to go back with him. And so I took the opportunity to do that and travel back to, um, with him and his brother to England for a couple of weeks during, during the break between semesters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite different from Korea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said you were surprised when you found out you were accepted. What was your family's reaction and your friends'? What kind of reactions did you get from them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.923058005359252, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a little bit. I went to England with my roommate. Their father, their parents were stationed in England. Father was a rear admiral in the Navy. And they were going to, he was my roommate at Saint Mary's College in Maryland. And it was during Christmas break. He asked if I wanted to go back with him. And so I took the opportunity to do that and travel back to, um, with him and his brother to England for a couple of weeks during, during the break between semesters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite different from Korea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you said you were surprised when you found out you were accepted. What was your family's reaction and your friends'? What kind of reactions did you get from them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they actually, I had one, one guy from college told me. He said, he said, man, I don't know why you're surprised. He said, that's you. He said, he said, you know, I've always seen you as a kind of person that, that just, you know, you, you've always talked about travel. You've always talked about doing something different. And, um, so he wasn't surprised. And nor was my roommate surprised that I was able to get in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you study public health, health education at school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.276723068677414, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I sort of, I sort of thought they made a mistake. And actually, I contacted Peace Corps and I talked to the, the person that did the selection. And she actually said to me, she, you know, she explained that during that period of time, I think the Peace Corps director there was, um, a directive by the director that accepting generalists and because in the past I think they were, they had gotten specific volunteers to specific programs and they wanted to do something different. So I was sort of in that generalist group, one of those persons that they picked. And so it was a little clearer. And then she also said, well, Mr. Bryan, she said, we can always kind of delay this. You know, you can go in another group. And I said, no. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were ready."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm ready. You know, I'm ready to go in. I'm not delaying this. I, I told her, I said, I've been waiting for this since I was eight years old and there's no delay. She goes, oh okay, fine. She goes, but you'll be provided training. And, um, and also when, when I got it, I remember too, I was in the college dorm grabbing a dictionary off or something and finding out what the heck Hansen's disease was and finding out that it's leprosy. And then, of course, that threw me back even more. It's like, wow. Leprosy. So but after that initial shock and, uh, then it was just pure excitement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, uh, so back to the question of how your family and friends reacted. When they, when they heard that you were going to be working with leprosy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that give them second thoughts or cause any concern?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.391016134169647, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that give them second thoughts or cause any concern?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it did. There was all kinds of questions and questions that certainly I couldn't answer because I didn't know. I had question even from my parents. My parents were happy, you know, because I knew, they knew I was applying and they knew that I could go to another country for years. They were okay with it, but they weren't okay with leprosy. And my friends were confused because they didn't, first of all, they didn't know leprosy still existed. And nor did I, for that matter. I thought it, you know, after working in it for, learning the disease, you find out it is in the United States and where it is. And, you know, explain to, explain to people that that it does exist in the United States, but it's more prevalent in other countries.\n\nAnd so as I did some research to it prior to going in the program, I could, I was a little clearer in my mind what it was all about. I could explain it to other folks. And but there was still, it's like, why would you want to do that? Can you catch it? And I said, well, yeah, certainly there's potential to catch it. But you being a health educator, you know how to prevent from doing that. And so there was a lot of explanation that I couldn't go into depth, but just basic as I researched it prior to going in and explaining it to my parents and so forth. But, uh. So but, yeah, there was a lot of questions prior to, prior to doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, did you select Korea as a country that you wanted to go to or was it selected for you or just offered?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was selected for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any preference when? When you first thought about joining, where did you envision going?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.532118684160057, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was selected for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any preference when? When you first thought about joining, where did you envision going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess that was part of the shock too. When I got accepted, I opened the letter up and said, oh, wow, I got accepted. Korea. Hansen's disease. That was part of the shock because I had selected Africa, India, and I can't remember the third choice. And this was like way off the mark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Totally different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yeah, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet you were ready to go."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.36902076017784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess that was part of the shock too. When I got accepted, I opened the letter up and said, oh, wow, I got accepted. Korea. Hansen's disease. That was part of the shock because I had selected Africa, India, and I can't remember the third choice. And this was like way off the mark."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Totally different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yeah, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet you were ready to go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was ready to go. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So you, uh, you got selected. You're going to Korea. Did you do any training in the States beforehand, or did you go straight off to Korea and do your training there? How, how was it done in your group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 19.097556494046717, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was ready to go. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So you, uh, you got selected. You're going to Korea. Did you do any training in the States beforehand, or did you go straight off to Korea and do your training there? How, how was it done in your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The, um, there was, there was a public service hospital in Louisiana. They did research in leprosy and other concepts of diseases, and leprosy was one of them. It was open at the time. It's closed now. And that's where we did part of our training. We were there for about a week. And it was specifically on leprosy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then when we left there, we went to Korea, and we were in an area in Korea called Anyang. Anyang is, has a, I guess you call it a compound. And it's a hospital compound. And they specifically research leprosy. And outside the compound, there are three villages. And it's like resettlement villages. And those have folks that, uh, it's a community of folks, but a percentage of those folks have active leprosy. Active or leprosy that's been treated there in remission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you go directly there or did you do some training with the group before getting out to your site?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.944759173977621, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was, it was really. I mean, they went into, they went into physiology, went to the physiology of the body. They even how to suture up a wound, how to do dressings. How did, you know, even pharmacology. It was, it was really hard and, um, well designed, but really hard because."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On top of learning a new language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Yeah. So we go from, from culture and language in the morning and the technical language in the afternoon. And by the end of the day, it's like you have a lot of free time because the afternoon, afternoon right on through until the next day you're off. We all crashed. We're just brain dead because going through this. And so but it was, it was, it was very good. I mean they did it very well. But here again, I'm looking back, here's a guy with a sociology degree going into pre-med."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And whereas some of my, my colleagues were more prepared for it because they had two folks in there in the pre-med and at time I didn't know that. But they, you know, of course they did very well and some other folks were similar to me. One guy was an English major and so there was a couple of generalists in there. But we all made it through and I mean did fine and gave us a good basis for, for language. And then after that three weeks of that, we went back to Seoul for a couple of days, got sworn in. They gave us a train ticket and just waved to us and said, see you in two years. And I remember being on the train, on the train, and just kind of wondering where am I going? Because I had no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other volunteers going with you or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.827510193308468, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Yeah. So we go from, from culture and language in the morning and the technical language in the afternoon. And by the end of the day, it's like you have a lot of free time because the afternoon, afternoon right on through until the next day you're off. We all crashed. We're just brain dead because going through this. And so but it was, it was, it was very good. I mean they did it very well. But here again, I'm looking back, here's a guy with a sociology degree going into pre-med."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And whereas some of my, my colleagues were more prepared for it because they had two folks in there in the pre-med and at time I didn't know that. But they, you know, of course they did very well and some other folks were similar to me. One guy was an English major and so there was a couple of generalists in there. But we all made it through and I mean did fine and gave us a good basis for, for language. And then after that three weeks of that, we went back to Seoul for a couple of days, got sworn in. They gave us a train ticket and just waved to us and said, see you in two years. And I remember being on the train, on the train, and just kind of wondering where am I going? Because I had no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other volunteers going with you or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were on your own. You're the only volunteer going."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.808344659231631, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And whereas some of my, my colleagues were more prepared for it because they had two folks in there in the pre-med and at time I didn't know that. But they, you know, of course they did very well and some other folks were similar to me. One guy was an English major and so there was a couple of generalists in there. But we all made it through and I mean did fine and gave us a good basis for, for language. And then after that three weeks of that, we went back to Seoul for a couple of days, got sworn in. They gave us a train ticket and just waved to us and said, see you in two years. And I remember being on the train, on the train, and just kind of wondering where am I going? Because I had no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other volunteers going with you or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were on your own. You're the only volunteer going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it back to the same area that you did your training or a totally different place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.898160732479589, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were on your own. You're the only volunteer going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it back to the same area that you did your training or a totally different place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was to your site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To your site."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.763161398122948, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was to your site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To your site."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was, it was about a five hour train ride down. Our training was in Seoul. Seoul. And the, my training site was in an area called Cheongchun. I mean, I'm sorry, Jinju and which was a, it's about a five hour train ride."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I get there and we, for the past two months, we've been instructed in standard, the standard colloquial type of Korean. And, um, so and the standard Korean is spoken in the big city of Seoul. You get down the country, there's a dialect there. So I have no idea with my coworker's talking about. I'm thrown in confusion and can't, because he's speaking a dialect and he's, he's frustrated because I can't understand him. And, and I'm trying to speak Korean, the standard. I'm all confused now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they have any English competency at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.020797528289366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, yes, no. What is your name? How are you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pretty basic."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty basic. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you really jumped in the deep end?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.356441698099296, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, yes, no. What is your name? How are you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Pretty basic."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty basic. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you really jumped in the deep end?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were there any episodes during training that really stood out? Any, any, any real big memories there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 14.840490775665884, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty basic. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you really jumped in the deep end?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were there any episodes during training that really stood out? Any, any, any real big memories there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, I can tell you one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good or bad."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.840980839075824, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, uh, and so I just said, just and he's like, you know. You know, annyeong hasimnikka. And he was saying that, but I didn't hear it initially. He had to say it three times. Finally, the last time I heard it, it still is he was spitting out and I just reached out and, you know, he had no, he had all nubs. He hardly had any fingers. And I just shook his hand and he just had this whatever smile that he could get because all his whole face was paralyzed. He just kind of smiled and just shook my hand and walked away. And I just stood there. I had never seen anything like that in my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even on Pappy on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And but that, that stood out, I think initially in training for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So yeah, that must have been one of many."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.045534265639803, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even on Pappy on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And but that, that stood out, I think initially in training for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So yeah, that must have been one of many."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. Okay, so you complete training and you get out to your site. What, what was the living situation like out there at your site?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.383926961822004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And but that, that stood out, I think initially in training for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So yeah, that must have been one of many."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. Okay, so you complete training and you get out to your site. What, what was the living situation like out there at your site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my coworker had arranged initially when I arrived to the site to stay in a hotel for about a week until they got my living arrangements in the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your coworker was a local?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.53769662424667, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. Okay, so you complete training and you get out to your site. What, what was the living situation like out there at your site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my coworker had arranged initially when I arrived to the site to stay in a hotel for about a week until they got my living arrangements in the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your coworker was a local?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was, I was stationed in two places officially, you know, stationed in the health center. And just down the street was a clinic. And the health center, the, my coworker was specializing in leprosy. And the, down at the clinic there was a doctor who I was assigned to. He was a leprosy specialist. And so after I met them, the coworker set me up in the site. So next day after about a week, he took me down, took me, it's about a 40 minute bus ride to area called Pan Sung. Pan Sung is a, there is a resettlement village of about 300 people with 100 leprosy patients. Out of that 100, three of them are what's called active and then the rest were, um, were non active.\n\nAnd that's where I was going to live for two years. And so, um, the, so I lived with a family, a family of, uh, of the mother, father, and two sons and two daughters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't have your own place? You had a room?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.819662915829634, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my coworker had arranged initially when I arrived to the site to stay in a hotel for about a week until they got my living arrangements in the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your coworker was a local?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was, I was stationed in two places officially, you know, stationed in the health center. And just down the street was a clinic. And the health center, the, my coworker was specializing in leprosy. And the, down at the clinic there was a doctor who I was assigned to. He was a leprosy specialist. And so after I met them, the coworker set me up in the site. So next day after about a week, he took me down, took me, it's about a 40 minute bus ride to area called Pan Sung. Pan Sung is a, there is a resettlement village of about 300 people with 100 leprosy patients. Out of that 100, three of them are what's called active and then the rest were, um, were non active.\n\nAnd that's where I was going to live for two years. And so, um, the, so I lived with a family, a family of, uh, of the mother, father, and two sons and two daughters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't have your own place? You had a room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A room inside the house, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they did your cooking and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.244069906477371, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was, I was stationed in two places officially, you know, stationed in the health center. And just down the street was a clinic. And the health center, the, my coworker was specializing in leprosy. And the, down at the clinic there was a doctor who I was assigned to. He was a leprosy specialist. And so after I met them, the coworker set me up in the site. So next day after about a week, he took me down, took me, it's about a 40 minute bus ride to area called Pan Sung. Pan Sung is a, there is a resettlement village of about 300 people with 100 leprosy patients. Out of that 100, three of them are what's called active and then the rest were, um, were non active.\n\nAnd that's where I was going to live for two years. And so, um, the, so I lived with a family, a family of, uh, of the mother, father, and two sons and two daughters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't have your own place? You had a room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A room inside the house, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they did your cooking and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did everything. Laundry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, there are some benefits."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.412431983305396, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did everything. Laundry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, there are some benefits."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So. And as time progressed, my living there became a problem. Because here, um. When because I'm assigned and working for the, working for the health center and the doctor, they're giving me medicine. They actually give me bottles of medicine that I distribute every day because relapse is a problem in a lot of the Asian countries. In Korea, it's really a problem. People don't take it every day, especially when the, there's a medicine called DDS, and that's the prevalent one that's used for, for eradicating leprosy. And so we'd give bottles of that. And what I did every day, I'd go around every day and give them the medicine so that they'd get them on a regimen.\n\nAnd but what was happening sometimes people were hiding medicine because it's an American made product. Any kind of pharmacy product that's American made, it's like works miracles. So many of the patients would stop taking it and use it for other stuff. So with leprosy, leprosy is kind of complicated because it, uh, it can be very active, but it's so slow progressing that you don't. It can take up to ten years for it to come out. And so what'll happen with many of these patients is they'll feel bad one day and, you know, they'll take the medicine that's prescribed. It's like us when we get a cold. We'll feel bad, we'll take the medicine. And as we start feeling better, we'll stop taking it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's exactly what happens with DDS. They'll stop taking it. Then they'll hoard it. And what they'll do is to sell it, give it to their son, or when they're not feeling well or something, it's like a cure all. They saw it as a cure all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What they think it is."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.432691335124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. They think it's a cure all. And, um, and so it results in a lot of relapse medication because they're not taking it as prescribed. Because once they get leprosy and it progresses to a certain type or their immunity and it, they have do it for the rest of their life and they have to do it consistently. So, uh, so. And so this was, um, the point I was making is this, this house that I was at. This guy, this guy of the village, he was what's called a yakban. A yakban is, uh, a yakban is actually in Korean is like a pharmacy, and he was operating a pharmacy in the village. So here I was. I was in conflict because I had medicine that I was giving out, but he was treating people in the village and it became an issue. It became a problem after a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you move or did you stay there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had to move, yeah. And, I mean, they wanted me to stay, but it was a problem. So what happened was I was going to move out of the village and the, the pastor of the village, his wife, she, she sort of cut me off at the path. She came up to me and she goes, you're going to my house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so she actually got my stuff and moved it into her house. And that's where I stayed for the rest of my time. And, um. And it ended up being wonderful because the, at the time, they had a daughter, 12 years old, and it was just the pastor and his wife and, uh. And it's interesting. The daughter is now, she is now in her late forties. And we've maintained contact the whole time. Yeah. We, uh, she has five kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still in Korea?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.480768150137777, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had to move, yeah. And, I mean, they wanted me to stay, but it was a problem. So what happened was I was going to move out of the village and the, the pastor of the village, his wife, she, she sort of cut me off at the path. She came up to me and she goes, you're going to my house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so she actually got my stuff and moved it into her house. And that's where I stayed for the rest of my time. And, um. And it ended up being wonderful because the, at the time, they had a daughter, 12 years old, and it was just the pastor and his wife and, uh. And it's interesting. The daughter is now, she is now in her late forties. And we've maintained contact the whole time. Yeah. We, uh, she has five kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still in Korea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Still in Korea. She's in Pusan and five kids and we still correspond. I send her a birthday card every year. And in fact, I have some pictures on my phone I can show you of the family. And Joyce and I went back, my wife and I went back to visit in 2006 and went to visit them. And it was, it was wonderful. It was, we had a great time. And so, yeah, we still, still maintain contact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you mentioned Pusan [also called Busan], which is an area in Korea where you're likely to run into quite a few Americans. But how about where your site and where you lived? Had there been a volunteer there before? Had they had experience with Americans before or was this something new?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.301465226526444, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was totally new. Yeah. It was very new. And, um. They, there's a couple of occasions where they had international folks would come through, like from World Vision?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or is it World Vision or, uh, no World Vision. Or maybe it was World Vision. It was one of these organizations that comes through that provides food, supplement food. The one occasion they, they came through and I remember them coming up and said, they asked, and they would and they would call me Mr. Pak. That's a, you know, and all the volunteers had Korean names. Mine was Pak Min Chi. Pak is my family. And so they call me Mr. Pak. They came up. Mr. Pak, are you going to be in the village today? Why are they asking me this? You know I'm usually in the village. Sometimes I leave. And so I thought something was, something wasn't right. And so they said, oh, we're having some visitors come today and.\n\nAnd in Korean there's this thing called nunchi. Nunchi is, I guess, we take it as this feeling that you get or this when someone is talking, you kind of get the vibes, vibes, something's, something. They want you to do something or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just, what I picked up from this is that I need to disappear for a bit for some reason. I don't know why."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they were giving you a message."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.33496136280716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or is it World Vision or, uh, no World Vision. Or maybe it was World Vision. It was one of these organizations that comes through that provides food, supplement food. The one occasion they, they came through and I remember them coming up and said, they asked, and they would and they would call me Mr. Pak. That's a, you know, and all the volunteers had Korean names. Mine was Pak Min Chi. Pak is my family. And so they call me Mr. Pak. They came up. Mr. Pak, are you going to be in the village today? Why are they asking me this? You know I'm usually in the village. Sometimes I leave. And so I thought something was, something wasn't right. And so they said, oh, we're having some visitors come today and.\n\nAnd in Korean there's this thing called nunchi. Nunchi is, I guess, we take it as this feeling that you get or this when someone is talking, you kind of get the vibes, vibes, something's, something. They want you to do something or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just, what I picked up from this is that I need to disappear for a bit for some reason. I don't know why."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they were giving you a message."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You shouldn't be in the village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.055507855317481, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You shouldn't be in the village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So, so I decided I'd take a trip to Jinju. Jinju is the major city where I was. So I said, I think I might go to Jinju today to the health center. And they go, oh, okay. And they were a little happy, you know? Okay, that's what I need to do. But I don't know why I'm doing it, but this is why I need to do. And I found out there was a German couple coming in and apparently they were from the church and they provide funding and stuff, supplemental stuff. So they come in the village, check it out, and then they send stuff. And whether it's money or support, things like that. So if they saw a foreigner in there, that might cause some problems. So, uh. So that's what I found out later.\n\nAnd then it happened again, excuse me, there was from another country came in and they ended up sending grits. They sent like ten bags, I mean ten 100 pound bags of grits. And so I had these people come up to my room one day and they said, can you come pick out some food for us? And I said, sure, what's, what's going on? And I looked and I saw immediately it said grits on it. And I went, oh boy. What are they going to do with this, grits? I couldn't even explain it. I'm trying to explain that it's like a breakfast, because Koreans don't eat breakfast."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I couldn't explain it. And, uh, and I don't think I ever got it through, even trying to prepare it. It didn't, it. I think they ended up feeding it to their."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Grits isn't your specialty?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.0616753947972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So, so I decided I'd take a trip to Jinju. Jinju is the major city where I was. So I said, I think I might go to Jinju today to the health center. And they go, oh, okay. And they were a little happy, you know? Okay, that's what I need to do. But I don't know why I'm doing it, but this is why I need to do. And I found out there was a German couple coming in and apparently they were from the church and they provide funding and stuff, supplemental stuff. So they come in the village, check it out, and then they send stuff. And whether it's money or support, things like that. So if they saw a foreigner in there, that might cause some problems. So, uh. So that's what I found out later.\n\nAnd then it happened again, excuse me, there was from another country came in and they ended up sending grits. They sent like ten bags, I mean ten 100 pound bags of grits. And so I had these people come up to my room one day and they said, can you come pick out some food for us? And I said, sure, what's, what's going on? And I looked and I saw immediately it said grits on it. And I went, oh boy. What are they going to do with this, grits? I couldn't even explain it. I'm trying to explain that it's like a breakfast, because Koreans don't eat breakfast."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I couldn't explain it. And, uh, and I don't think I ever got it through, even trying to prepare it. It didn't, it. I think they ended up feeding it to their."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Grits isn't your specialty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I mean, I love grits, but Koreans don't know grits are. They don't know what to use it for. And I think they ended up feeding it to their cows and pigs. Because they don't eat that stuff. Like, what are they sending them ten 100 pound bags?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A thousand pounds."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.179639327552445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I couldn't explain it. And, uh, and I don't think I ever got it through, even trying to prepare it. It didn't, it. I think they ended up feeding it to their."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Grits isn't your specialty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I mean, I love grits, but Koreans don't know grits are. They don't know what to use it for. And I think they ended up feeding it to their cows and pigs. Because they don't eat that stuff. Like, what are they sending them ten 100 pound bags?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A thousand pounds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.421821475058273, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I mean, I love grits, but Koreans don't know grits are. They don't know what to use it for. And I think they ended up feeding it to their cows and pigs. Because they don't eat that stuff. Like, what are they sending them ten 100 pound bags?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A thousand pounds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So arriving at this place where they weren't used to Americans, they didn't speak English. It probably took you a while to, to really fit in."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.80202386117586, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So arriving at this place where they weren't used to Americans, they didn't speak English. It probably took you a while to, to really fit in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, uh?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.335582067973178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So arriving at this place where they weren't used to Americans, they didn't speak English. It probably took you a while to, to really fit in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, uh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was hard at first. Any time you thought about packing it in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.706202297747975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, uh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was hard at first. Any time you thought about packing it in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Yeah, it was, I think it was the first six months. I remember sitting in my room, because I used to study every day and Korean is very hard, and especially with the dialect, because you don't. You're there and you can only kind of associate what they're meaning with that dialect. A lot of times they're swearing, you know, and doing other things and but, you know. Then nuances, you pick it up what it means. But, but it's very difficult. You're studying standard and they're speaking a dialect and you try and. So after the, I remember the first six months being in my room and close to tears and wondering, what in the heck am I doing here? Why am I going through this trauma? And, um, with this situation where nobody speaks English and nobody really cares.\n\nIt's almost like you feel nobody really cares and, you know, you want to do this. You waited all your life to do this since you were eight years old to do this. And I remember, I remember sitting there a whole day. I was there from morning till afternoon and just staring at the wall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had no other volunteers nearby that you could commiserate with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.686148556581584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there were nearby, but not that close. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like you can hop on a bus or whatever and just, or walk over the next paddy over. It was, you know, it took a little bit. And you don't know whether they were there, whether they got their own issues they're dealing with. So. That day, that day, by the end of that, probably that end of that afternoon, I, you know, I just kind of looked, introspection, and introspectively into my, what I was thinking and what I'd gone through. And I said, all right, you've got to make a decision. Are you going to go or are you going to stay? So I said, I'm staying. That was it. After six months in, that was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did it get easier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Got easier and, uh, well, easier in perspective, putting in perspective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Korean's hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got over the hump."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.410897616676086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yemen didn't sound good. It didn't sound good. And thank goodness I didn't choose Yemen, because one of my friends got posted in Yemen. And he was there maybe one, he was there less than a month. The North invaded the South and they pulled him out of there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there's a lot of problems in Yemen. So that's how I ended up in. He called. I got hold of the director and they said, oh, we have a leprosy hospital, but we don't have a program. Send him. So that's how we ended up in Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. All right. So now you've got, uh, you've got two countries that you can compare experiences with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after, after two years in Korea, how did you, how did you like Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.456552907417874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there's a lot of problems in Yemen. So that's how I ended up in. He called. I got hold of the director and they said, oh, we have a leprosy hospital, but we don't have a program. Send him. So that's how we ended up in Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. All right. So now you've got, uh, you've got two countries that you can compare experiences with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after, after two years in Korea, how did you, how did you like Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first impression?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.507281008242083, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after, after two years in Korea, how did you, how did you like Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first impression?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's difficult to compare them because the cultures are just so different. Korea was definitely more difficult because of the language, and a lot of Koreans don't speak English, or at least the English is broken. It's hard to decipher the English. And I think a lot of Koreans, I think, don't expect that Americans specifically would go through the trouble of learning Korean. They were pretty, um, many of them were just floored when I'd start speaking Korean. And they just, I remember there are times when I would speak Korean and they're just looking at me. They're just looking right through me, like I know you're speaking to me, but I don't know you're speaking to me. They're just shocked that you'd go through trouble learning Korean.\n\nAnd many people would even come to you and said, well, wow, you know, you're speaking Korean. Why? Why would you go through the trouble of speaking Korean? You know, and, and then, you know, then they'd tell you about English, how difficult English is. And I'd get a lot of offers to teach English. Even one of the universities I was in, Anyang, um, Gyeongsang University in Jinju, where I was stationed there, the professor came to me and said, we need, we need a teacher here to speak, to teach English. And I said, well, you don't need me because I'm not an English teacher. And so they, they just bugged me so much. And finally I said, look, I'll do this. I'm not going to teach you English. I'll teach you conversation. And that, that I can help you with. So I went to the university and helped them with their conversational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. To practice."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.211402408579456, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As you got into the city, it's different. It's a little different there, because either you're thought of as being CIA or, you know, the conversation would come up. And then, then there was an extension to that. I remember, I remember there were some college students and we used to, when I would go into the city, we used to, uh. In Korea, you have just like, um. All around the city, there are what's called dabangs, dabangs are tea shops or tea stores. That's where you go and have tea and coffee and that's where you go and socialize. And so I used to meet college students there, and I think they would meet me just to, just for English conversation. That was fine. You know, and they're friends.\n\nAnd so the conversation would take on a different context. They'd talk about politics and CIA. And then, then you'd hear some sidebar over here where you would have. Um. I remember back in, back at that time, in the early, in the, er. Around 1980 there was this song that came out and it was, in the context of the song, it was about monkeys. And I would hear this song whenever I would come around. And it was derogatory against African Americans. And, um, but that's, that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So somebody would play this song?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they would sing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they would sing it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was kind of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay, okay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.79044712064384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they would sing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they would sing it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was kind of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Sort of within your hearing. And so those kind of things would happen occasionally. And, um, and occasionally I would run into someone who. But it was mostly, it was in the city, never in the countryside. In the countryside, it was like you were, you're so, you were immersed in there and people didn't care. And you go into the city it was, it was different context. Students would, uh, and it was different. It was different. And often you, you know, and when I would experience that, you'd try and relate why, why is that happening? What, why are they, why are they, you know, making that? And with the song, after I kind of figured that out, I asked the Koreans and they told me why. They told me exactly why. And they told me it was because of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in the city and especially around the base, they would have had more interaction with Americans."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.9430001654922355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But this wasn't the base. You know, this wasn't a base."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was, this was in Jinju. Jinju didn't have an American base. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So it was, uh. It was. And occasionally I would, I would run into, excuse me, run into just, it's probably mostly because I was American, I think. Small percentage because they might have thought I was military. Not assuming that I was military. Well, why is this guy?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why else would you be there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.40322472098128, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I'm looking back like, oh, okay. And, and it was, it was just weird. It was, I'd, I'd never experienced anything like that. And so I said, oh, great to meet you. And they just toddled on off and I'm like, okay, that was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, yeah, but those are just some experiences that you run, you know, run into. But overall, just with the two countries it is just different. The language and cultural kinds of things and the dialect and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to go through any training again when you went to Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They made you go through the language training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.559138578868088, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, yeah, but those are just some experiences that you run, you know, run into. But overall, just with the two countries it is just different. The language and cultural kinds of things and the dialect and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to go through any training again when you went to Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They made you go through the language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Language and culture training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you do some home stays as part of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.73237619874232, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They made you go through the language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Language and culture training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you do some home stays as part of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. It was in Sawani. It was just, and the training was weird because I had gone through it before and, and being a volunteer and you kind of, even though it's a different country, you still, you know, there are things that, that, um. You know, you kind of have a feeling for or even though it's different. It was just weird. And here I was with new volunteers and they're all giddy with all of this and have all the questions and, and it was weird."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By time you're a veteran."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.035973554158135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Language and culture training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you do some home stays as part of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. It was in Sawani. It was just, and the training was weird because I had gone through it before and, and being a volunteer and you kind of, even though it's a different country, you still, you know, there are things that, that, um. You know, you kind of have a feeling for or even though it's different. It was just weird. And here I was with new volunteers and they're all giddy with all of this and have all the questions and, and it was weird."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By time you're a veteran."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're living in a village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.484415060175705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. It was in Sawani. It was just, and the training was weird because I had gone through it before and, and being a volunteer and you kind of, even though it's a different country, you still, you know, there are things that, that, um. You know, you kind of have a feeling for or even though it's different. It was just weird. And here I was with new volunteers and they're all giddy with all of this and have all the questions and, and it was weird."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By time you're a veteran."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're living in a village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And these guys are coming straight from college."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.09379451130634, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're living in a village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And these guys are coming straight from college."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably a little bit hard to relate to it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.609622853464614, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Probably a little bit hard to relate to it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very hard. And it was, it was hard because, um. You know, you're sitting and I didn't know whether to be quiet or interject on stuff. And it was just, I didn't know what to do because I didn't want to seem like this guy that's just, you know, pompous and just knows it all, or this guy just sitting back. Don't you have anything to say? It was, it was, it was hard. And so I think they put me in training for, for that time. And then I was at the village. I remember, remember the couple that I stayed with in the village, Kenny and Mary, really nice. And I remember one night, one night I was in my room. All these people started coming in, in the, in the village. The homes are pretty small."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when these people started coming in, mostly, mostly kids from the village. They're all sitting around and they started asking me questions about America. And it was, it was fun. It was, it was fun and funny. And the funniest part of the evening was, uh, was this one young lady. She was asking questions. She says, out of all of this, and I guess I guess we were there for a couple of hours, about an hour into it. And it was, it's funny now. At the time I kind of froze. But she said, she said, she said, Ben. And then everybody went quiet. Ben, are you a nigger? And everybody was silent.\n\nAnd I was first, my first thing was is, you know, it's like get, you know, snap, get angry. And then I thought, wait a second. She doesn't know what that means. And, you know, you're in another country. And I don't even know what she's saying, you know, I don't know what her. So I said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't know how to respond."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.438440128209345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I didn't know how to respond. So it took me, it took me about 15 or 20 seconds and everybody's just looking like, oh boy, is that good or bad, you know? And then I saw her reaction. She's like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that. And so I explained it. And, um, because of the British system and the American system, and I'm thinking, how does she know that to begin with? So we talked about it. And I explained to her, you know, literally what the word means. It doesn't reference any particular person. It's an angry, you know. And then I what the colloquial meaning of it is from an American standpoint. So I explained it out and they, and they understood it. They stood where it was coming from, from me, and what she had heard in a movie or something like that. And what, what the meaning was, what she was bringing to the question. So, um, but it was then we all laughed about it. But it was an interesting evening."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is, it's puzzling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wonder how I guess sometimes a bias does get exported."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah. And that's what my thought was, maybe it was a bias. But then again I, I think it was from a movie. I didn't ask her at the time, I think she got."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a term she had heard."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.598266809121494, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wonder how I guess sometimes a bias does get exported."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah. And that's what my thought was, maybe it was a bias. But then again I, I think it was from a movie. I didn't ask her at the time, I think she got."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a term she had heard."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's term she had heard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wasn't sure whether."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.084280011261104, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's term she had heard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wasn't sure whether."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Because so since then I even asked my wife, I said, you know, is this something that, that, you know, from the, you guys are calling in pretty much an educational system British based and, um. And so we've talked about it and I'm not sure we've come to a resolution as to, to that. And so it's still been an ongoing discussion as to that young lady's question, how that came about here in the village, Sawani village, middle of Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your, uh, your work and living situation in Fiji then was quite different than?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.538088901401226, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Because so since then I even asked my wife, I said, you know, is this something that, that, you know, from the, you guys are calling in pretty much an educational system British based and, um. And so we've talked about it and I'm not sure we've come to a resolution as to, to that. And so it's still been an ongoing discussion as to that young lady's question, how that came about here in the village, Sawani village, middle of Fiji."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your, uh, your work and living situation in Fiji then was quite different than?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What it was in Korea. But you completed your training there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.089212182088136, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a, it was a Fiji Nurses Association. They have a big building."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then behind that building is what's called is the maid's chamber or the quarters, and it's just like a two room, two room building."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's got a bed on one side and just open on the other side and it's very, pretty small. It's probably 20 by 20. And nothing in there but a bed, bed and shelves. And every morning I had to, or when I would take a shower I had to leave that little place, go into the building, which is about a 20 foot walk into the main building. There's a cold shower."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was your quarters all the time that you were in Suva?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 20.099124646764597, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then behind that building is what's called is the maid's chamber or the quarters, and it's just like a two room, two room building."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's got a bed on one side and just open on the other side and it's very, pretty small. It's probably 20 by 20. And nothing in there but a bed, bed and shelves. And every morning I had to, or when I would take a shower I had to leave that little place, go into the building, which is about a 20 foot walk into the main building. There's a cold shower."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was your quarters all the time that you were in Suva?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. For the first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the first year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.44347182973844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's got a bed on one side and just open on the other side and it's very, pretty small. It's probably 20 by 20. And nothing in there but a bed, bed and shelves. And every morning I had to, or when I would take a shower I had to leave that little place, go into the building, which is about a 20 foot walk into the main building. There's a cold shower."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was your quarters all the time that you were in Suva?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. For the first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the first year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. First year. And, uh, let me back that up a little bit. The first, first, probably the first month I was in, I was in Tamavua. Yeah, there was a volunteer that had been there. He, I think it was him and he may have been there by himself, I can't remember. And he was, uh, this was in Tamavua and I was there for about a month. And he was from, he was from Central America originally and the Peace Corps. And I had to get out of there. This guy was an alcoholic. We had, we had a three, three bedroom flat. He had a room. I had a room. The other room was at least 20 cases of Fiji beer bottles, and he drank them all and kept coming in.\n\nAnd that was just part of it. The other part was I'd walk in the house and, you know, hookers in the house. And I remember coming in one evening and there was this Indian lady from down, from Suva, and I knew she was one of the hookers. And this lady is like six foot, probably 250. And she is there. And, uh, I'm like, I'm done. It's like, what are you doing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, well, Suva's quite a bit different than a village in."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.9371909219316, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. For the first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the first year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. First year. And, uh, let me back that up a little bit. The first, first, probably the first month I was in, I was in Tamavua. Yeah, there was a volunteer that had been there. He, I think it was him and he may have been there by himself, I can't remember. And he was, uh, this was in Tamavua and I was there for about a month. And he was from, he was from Central America originally and the Peace Corps. And I had to get out of there. This guy was an alcoholic. We had, we had a three, three bedroom flat. He had a room. I had a room. The other room was at least 20 cases of Fiji beer bottles, and he drank them all and kept coming in.\n\nAnd that was just part of it. The other part was I'd walk in the house and, you know, hookers in the house. And I remember coming in one evening and there was this Indian lady from down, from Suva, and I knew she was one of the hookers. And this lady is like six foot, probably 250. And she is there. And, uh, I'm like, I'm done. It's like, what are you doing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, well, Suva's quite a bit different than a village in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A village in Korea."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.374656579924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. First year. And, uh, let me back that up a little bit. The first, first, probably the first month I was in, I was in Tamavua. Yeah, there was a volunteer that had been there. He, I think it was him and he may have been there by himself, I can't remember. And he was, uh, this was in Tamavua and I was there for about a month. And he was from, he was from Central America originally and the Peace Corps. And I had to get out of there. This guy was an alcoholic. We had, we had a three, three bedroom flat. He had a room. I had a room. The other room was at least 20 cases of Fiji beer bottles, and he drank them all and kept coming in.\n\nAnd that was just part of it. The other part was I'd walk in the house and, you know, hookers in the house. And I remember coming in one evening and there was this Indian lady from down, from Suva, and I knew she was one of the hookers. And this lady is like six foot, probably 250. And she is there. And, uh, I'm like, I'm done. It's like, what are you doing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, well, Suva's quite a bit different than a village in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A village in Korea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was, I was up there. Nice house. They were renting it and. And I told, I told my program director, I said, I got to go. I can't, I can't handle. I come home every evening and I just want to sack out and just chill. I ain't got all these people in my house. Some of them are hookers, some of them I don't even know who they are. Half of 'em are. He's drinking beer for dinner, and we. I'm done. That's when they moved me to the maid's quarters. I was there for about a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's pretty common for the houses in Fiji to have the bure."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.7997876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know what they were, but they were crawling all over me. I had to fumigate the place and it was filled, I mean, just roaches. Roaches all over the place. It was, it was a mess. I don't know how I stayed there a year. But, um, yes, so I ended up moving to Beach Road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Big improvement. That's at Suva Point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. This guy was an accountant with Price Waterhouse and, uh. So it was nice. We still, occasionally we still remain in contact. New Zealander. He's living in Australia. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you met your wife in Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.999763999999999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. This guy was an accountant with Price Waterhouse and, uh. So it was nice. We still, occasionally we still remain in contact. New Zealander. He's living in Australia. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you met your wife in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. Met at a Fiji party. Yeah. Yep. So, um, yeah, we went to a couple of Fiji parties. I think it was the second one. Met her there and started dating. And that was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, I've kept you talking for quite a while here, and I know you're probably getting tired. Any, uh, any memorable experiences there or things that you might consider like a big accomplishment or memorable experiences while you're in Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So now here you are. It's almost, almost 40 years later."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what do you think this volunteer experience is in these two different countries? Is that, has that had a big effect on the rest of your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. Sure. Well, you know, married to a Fijian so. But no, for work wise, I spent 24 years with the Department of Education, Maryland State Department of Education, working with the individuals with disabilities and all types of disabilities and reviewing, uh, medical documentation to determine eligibility for services. So. And then segued just two and a half years ago to the federal government, pretty much doing the same thing. But on a different, different scale. This is, uh, similar in respects of working with individuals with disabilities. But it's a slight twist to it. That was public. This is specifically federal employees.\n\nSo yeah, absolutely. It's, it did, I think it did certainly build a decent foundation for that, for experiencing the medical part of it and then taking off from there and doing these kinds of, kinds of what I'm doing now and enjoying it, actually. Yeah, very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And you're thinking about moving back?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. Sure. Well, you know, married to a Fijian so. But no, for work wise, I spent 24 years with the Department of Education, Maryland State Department of Education, working with the individuals with disabilities and all types of disabilities and reviewing, uh, medical documentation to determine eligibility for services. So. And then segued just two and a half years ago to the federal government, pretty much doing the same thing. But on a different, different scale. This is, uh, similar in respects of working with individuals with disabilities. But it's a slight twist to it. That was public. This is specifically federal employees.\n\nSo yeah, absolutely. It's, it did, I think it did certainly build a decent foundation for that, for experiencing the medical part of it and then taking off from there and doing these kinds of, kinds of what I'm doing now and enjoying it, actually. Yeah, very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. And you're thinking about moving back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it's not thinking. Moving. According to my wife, we're, as soon as the house is sold, we're gone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, I appreciate your time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it's not thinking. Moving. According to my wife, we're, as soon as the house is sold, we're gone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, I appreciate your time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you want to get in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00066:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, I appreciate your time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you want to get in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm sure there are lots more, but that, I think that was the essence of the whole thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Well, then, thank you very much. This concludes the interview."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00541:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 16, "return_to_go": 80.57677502505146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. One more. Maybe it’s Thomas—\\n\\n REBECCA"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was the congressman during the time of the NASA—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, those were some great guys. Don’t forget Congressman [Olin E.] Teague.\\n\\n REBECCA"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s true."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Tiger” Teague was a very important congressman. But I can’t remember for sure.\\n\\n REBECCA"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sam [Samuel T.] Rayburn was—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00541:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 57.06073413826677, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It may be repetitive. I’d like to touch on each of them just to be sure I’ve covering the lot. So, ask me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Certainly. Okay. You had mentioned for—each mission had a unique science objective, some of which—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. A unique series of science objectives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unique series."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn’t one. It was the whole series, and included in each unique series was the general objective, expanding what we know, and that was expanding what we know in terms of the science and also in terms of man’s capability. We did upgrade, largely through not in the technical aspects, through things that we thought about as we went [through] the preparation for the early missions, but long before we got [to] the other missions, like the lunar rover, for example.\\n\\n I think that the engineering performance was outstanding, really outstanding, and many of the flight controllers in the Flight Directorate were engineers, and they were the people, the first people to do an all-cost systems engineering, and that was a great invention. I think it was Apollo who brought that on, more than the military, and so I’ll come back to that when I talk about one of the other generalized topics. Between my other remarks, we’ve kind of covered that topic. Let’s go on now to the next topic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Next one we have is human performance."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00541:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.9281621, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s oral history. It’s only one man’s version."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I can’t get anybody to corroborate what I said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you had mentioned you wanted to go back and mention Farouk El-baz’s role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do. While I was training the ground crews, Farouk was training the circumlunar crews, one-man crews. But he was also training—his training extended into all the crews. Farouk is a master, an articulate master of educating and maintaining interest. The guy who played him in From the Earth to the Moon isn’t as good as Farouk is. He’s just a master. We were never in competition. I didn’t hear most of Farouk’s training because I wasn’t there at that time. We each had our shots at the crews, but that was among the things the crews had to learn, you understand. And the crews all had their opportunities to go around the Moon a number of orbits, so they got to see things which they were all lit up about. They just loved it. And Farouk did a fantastic job on that.\\n\\n But Jim Head contributed to that, and this name I’m struggling with right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll definitely be able to look it up."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00541:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 18.809069, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I can’t get anybody to corroborate what I said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you had mentioned you wanted to go back and mention Farouk El-baz’s role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do. While I was training the ground crews, Farouk was training the circumlunar crews, one-man crews. But he was also training—his training extended into all the crews. Farouk is a master, an articulate master of educating and maintaining interest. The guy who played him in From the Earth to the Moon isn’t as good as Farouk is. He’s just a master. We were never in competition. I didn’t hear most of Farouk’s training because I wasn’t there at that time. We each had our shots at the crews, but that was among the things the crews had to learn, you understand. And the crews all had their opportunities to go around the Moon a number of orbits, so they got to see things which they were all lit up about. They just loved it. And Farouk did a fantastic job on that.\\n\\n But Jim Head contributed to that, and this name I’m struggling with right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll definitely be able to look it up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you can find it, and I’ll know it the minute I leave. What else?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sandra, did you have any questions?\\n\\n [To Dr. Silver] Well, was there anything else that you in particular wanted to talk about for your experiences during the Apollo Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00541:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.29, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Parker’s a Caltech alumnus. He finally got to fly. He now heads the NASA office at JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California]. But he had a great touch, good humor, dedication. He was a wonderful guy. These guys are my friends, so I don’t want you showing this around. I tried to be friends to everybody I’d meet. Some of them are gone, so that’s the way it goes. Who was the Apollo 16 CapCom? I don’t know.\\n\\n REBECCA"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of them was Fullerton."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[F.] Gorden Fullerton. Haven’t mentioned him. Gorden served and served and served in every capacity. I mention him to you, and I asked George about him last night, and he’s now out at Edwards, or it’s Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California], I guess, now. A good man.\\n\\n The people you need, you need people in ranks, and you have to recognize that if you don’t have the first one, then the second guy will step in, the third guy will step in, and that’s the way it goes, like that. It takes it in ranks. It was a community, a fantastic community. So if you ask me, was it one of the highlights of my life? You’d better believe it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back on your career with Apollo and the Apollo Program, you’ve talked a lot about the team and you’ve talked about your contributions. What would you consider, for you personally and then for the program as a whole, to be the biggest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The biggest challenge was to subdue your natural human responses and remember what your mission was. Even when I was fighting like hell, and that fight extended to my own campus, it was important not to lose sight of the mission. All kinds of people that I didn’t agree with, nevertheless, made contributions. That’s the way it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what would you consider Apollo’s biggest accomplishment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01009:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.58031316021982, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's worked out better than it might have, had the space program not gone the way it did, which wouldn't have happened, as you said, as you suggested, without the ICBM program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very key element. Looking on that and the involvement, then, with the Mercury Program and applying the Atlas to the Mercury Program, what was then your interaction with NASA, as well as the military at that time? How did that relationship evolve and what did it entail?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As near as I can recall, the relationship of NASA and the Air Force was a good one. There was a clarity that in some respects might have been surprising, between the NASA mission on the one hand and the Air Force's mission on the other. It was far superior to the typical interservice rivalry situations that exist today, that have always existed as long as there's been the three services. The role, for example, of aircraft carriers versus long-range bombers has always been, and always going to be, probably a good example of gray areas, difficulties in trying to define the areas, the missions of each of the services. But NASA was nonmilitary and the Air Force is military, and that worked out well. [Brief interruption.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking at the involvement, as we were just recently talking, with NASA and the Air Force on the Atlas Program, to bring the Atlas up to manned specifications and to work NASA into it and using it and launching it, what roles did you have there? Were you involved with any training aspects for them or the launch site, developing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the large teams that we had on the apparatus itself, on being sure that everything was in proper condition, checking everything out, and the teams in Florida to make sure that the launch would go well, they were placed totally at the disposal of NASA. Except for making sure that that would happen, I personally was not on the site and not standing there directing anything. So I had very little to do with such details."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to be on hand to watch a launch of the Atlas, a manned launch?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01009:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.31145906691091, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As near as I can recall, the relationship of NASA and the Air Force was a good one. There was a clarity that in some respects might have been surprising, between the NASA mission on the one hand and the Air Force's mission on the other. It was far superior to the typical interservice rivalry situations that exist today, that have always existed as long as there's been the three services. The role, for example, of aircraft carriers versus long-range bombers has always been, and always going to be, probably a good example of gray areas, difficulties in trying to define the areas, the missions of each of the services. But NASA was nonmilitary and the Air Force is military, and that worked out well. [Brief interruption.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking at the involvement, as we were just recently talking, with NASA and the Air Force on the Atlas Program, to bring the Atlas up to manned specifications and to work NASA into it and using it and launching it, what roles did you have there? Were you involved with any training aspects for them or the launch site, developing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the large teams that we had on the apparatus itself, on being sure that everything was in proper condition, checking everything out, and the teams in Florida to make sure that the launch would go well, they were placed totally at the disposal of NASA. Except for making sure that that would happen, I personally was not on the site and not standing there directing anything. So I had very little to do with such details."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to be on hand to watch a launch of the Atlas, a manned launch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I watched a couple of launches. I watched the first night shot, for example."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it very satisfying to be able to see what you'd been spending so much time on come to fruition?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01009:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.34606562990101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the large teams that we had on the apparatus itself, on being sure that everything was in proper condition, checking everything out, and the teams in Florida to make sure that the launch would go well, they were placed totally at the disposal of NASA. Except for making sure that that would happen, I personally was not on the site and not standing there directing anything. So I had very little to do with such details."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to be on hand to watch a launch of the Atlas, a manned launch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I watched a couple of launches. I watched the first night shot, for example."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it very satisfying to be able to see what you'd been spending so much time on come to fruition?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, before that I had seen ICBM launches and I'd seen a lot of pictures that we had taken of ICBM launches, and I'd seen pictures, of course, of the launches of the Apollo Programs. I have to say that what I saw with my own eyes was what I expected to see. It was not all that surprising difference, thrilling, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that's good."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01009:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 33.71785069989001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I watched a couple of launches. I watched the first night shot, for example."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it very satisfying to be able to see what you'd been spending so much time on come to fruition?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, before that I had seen ICBM launches and I'd seen a lot of pictures that we had taken of ICBM launches, and I'd seen pictures, of course, of the launches of the Apollo Programs. I have to say that what I saw with my own eyes was what I expected to see. It was not all that surprising difference, thrilling, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that's good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, if this is what you do for a living, it can't be quite the same as it is if you're on the outside. The mystery was not very high."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you like it to go as you expect, because that means everything's going well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-01009:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.5581, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometimes that happens. It happened here or we would have been very much delayed in both instances, whether it be the lunar landing on the one hand, or the ICBM program, but especially these people were capable immediately of coming together. As a matter of fact, now the deputy head of NASA, George [E.] Mueller, in charge of manned space flight—everything had to do with manned space flight—was one of our principal—for several years. I recruited him into Ramo-Wooldridge for the ICBM program. He was in charge of the electronics guidance, that aspect of the ICBM program. And he was recruited by NASA as a result of conversations between Jim Webb and me. The general who headed the Minuteman program [General Samuel C. Phillips] became the head of the Apollo Program. That was the case of General Schriever and Jim Webb coming together. There was no question that the ICBM project team, so large and so outstanding, put together, should have been used and was used in many places. A good many of the top executives in the space industry came out of that original ICBM team at Ramo-Wooldridge."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So not only was the ICBM program instrumental in the technological side, it was on the management side as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's as it should be. I mean, you have a very big program and its principal people should move on to other things as you pass a certain peak of requirement for all of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The buildup, at least on the manned space program side, was to the [Apollo 11] lunar landing, as you mentioned. Do you remember where you were and what you were doing when they actually landed on the moon for the first time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was home and watching TV."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career, focusing on the ICBM program and NASA involvement, what was the biggest challenge that you faced?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.274319948460445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They didn't get enough people or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So anyway, uh, so we left for Fiji in, let's see, I think at like the middle of October, but we didn't go to Fiji immediately. We had our training in the island of Molokai, Hawaii, and we were there until, um, about I think at the middle of December. We had, there were 120 of us in that group and they divided us pretty much in half. Half of us were going to be Fiji volunteers, the other had been for Indians, and we had language instructors, Fijian and Indian, and did our language training there and cultural training. It was really a good place to be because it was kind of off the beaten track."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now they were, the whole group was going to Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But some were going to be work with the Indian population in Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.082577720511605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So anyway, uh, so we left for Fiji in, let's see, I think at like the middle of October, but we didn't go to Fiji immediately. We had our training in the island of Molokai, Hawaii, and we were there until, um, about I think at the middle of December. We had, there were 120 of us in that group and they divided us pretty much in half. Half of us were going to be Fiji volunteers, the other had been for Indians, and we had language instructors, Fijian and Indian, and did our language training there and cultural training. It was really a good place to be because it was kind of off the beaten track."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now they were, the whole group was going to Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But some were going to be work with the Indian population in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right, yeah, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They weren't going to India."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.647308578346227, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But some were going to be work with the Indian population in Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right, yeah, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They weren't going to India."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. And most, I would say majority of people in that group were going to be either secondary or primary teachers. There were like, we had probably maybe 15 or 20 of us were doing co-operatives and then I think about ten were doing filariasis. That was the thing about the mosquitoes. And then another group were doing fisheries, starting up fisheries. But with the rest, I think that's all of them, but the rest of them were going to be teachers. So we got to Fiji in like the middle of December, and us cooperative people. And I don't, I don't know if anybody else did or not, but us cooperative people, we stayed at the Cooperatives Education Center at Lami, you know, while the time we were there. And actually, we'll tell you later, I was in charge of that when I left, you know, three years later. But anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your, back in your training, what did your training consist of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.274787309273584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right, yeah, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They weren't going to India."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. And most, I would say majority of people in that group were going to be either secondary or primary teachers. There were like, we had probably maybe 15 or 20 of us were doing co-operatives and then I think about ten were doing filariasis. That was the thing about the mosquitoes. And then another group were doing fisheries, starting up fisheries. But with the rest, I think that's all of them, but the rest of them were going to be teachers. So we got to Fiji in like the middle of December, and us cooperative people. And I don't, I don't know if anybody else did or not, but us cooperative people, we stayed at the Cooperatives Education Center at Lami, you know, while the time we were there. And actually, we'll tell you later, I was in charge of that when I left, you know, three years later. But anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your, back in your training, what did your training consist of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Language training. That was primarily what we did, and then different cultural things, but we didn't really do that much stuff about cooperatives then. I mean, think we, I mean the teachers did a lot of training then. They did stuff with, you know, classroom situations and all that. But of course with us being cooperatives, we didn't, from what I remember, we didn't do all that much hands on training and why considering with cooperative stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were in the Fijian group, you learned Fijian language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.08309701030398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. And most, I would say majority of people in that group were going to be either secondary or primary teachers. There were like, we had probably maybe 15 or 20 of us were doing co-operatives and then I think about ten were doing filariasis. That was the thing about the mosquitoes. And then another group were doing fisheries, starting up fisheries. But with the rest, I think that's all of them, but the rest of them were going to be teachers. So we got to Fiji in like the middle of December, and us cooperative people. And I don't, I don't know if anybody else did or not, but us cooperative people, we stayed at the Cooperatives Education Center at Lami, you know, while the time we were there. And actually, we'll tell you later, I was in charge of that when I left, you know, three years later. But anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your, back in your training, what did your training consist of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Language training. That was primarily what we did, and then different cultural things, but we didn't really do that much stuff about cooperatives then. I mean, think we, I mean the teachers did a lot of training then. They did stuff with, you know, classroom situations and all that. But of course with us being cooperatives, we didn't, from what I remember, we didn't do all that much hands on training and why considering with cooperative stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were in the Fijian group, you learned Fijian language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they bring trainers over from Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.870107789226644, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Language training. That was primarily what we did, and then different cultural things, but we didn't really do that much stuff about cooperatives then. I mean, think we, I mean the teachers did a lot of training then. They did stuff with, you know, classroom situations and all that. But of course with us being cooperatives, we didn't, from what I remember, we didn't do all that much hands on training and why considering with cooperative stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were in the Fijian group, you learned Fijian language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they bring trainers over from Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah they did. And we, they were really good to us. I mean they, you know, the total immersion thing where during the daytime we were not supposed to speak any English. And then even at night, you know, they wanted us to pretty much stay away from English. And of course we did all the cultural things with the kava and kava ceremony. And it was, it was a lot of fun. I mean, just imagine 120 people together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. It's a big group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.522341988029602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they bring trainers over from Fiji?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah they did. And we, they were really good to us. I mean they, you know, the total immersion thing where during the daytime we were not supposed to speak any English. And then even at night, you know, they wanted us to pretty much stay away from English. And of course we did all the cultural things with the kava and kava ceremony. And it was, it was a lot of fun. I mean, just imagine 120 people together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. It's a big group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So anyway, we spent that Christmas there in Lami, stayed at the Coop Education Center, and then we split. During that time, when we got to Fiji, like I said I think it was around the middle of December, maybe earlier, we went around to a lot of different co- operatives, primary cooperatives and different kinds, just to find out what they're all about. Because for most of us, cooperatives was kind of a thing that we didn't know about it. And I did have bookkeeping, so you know, I was familiar with accounting, I was familiar with all that. But we had to learn. In our work, we had to learn how to do all that, which of course came later on. But they did take us around to see a lot of different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was kind of an extension of your training once you got into country before you actually started working?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.358157764477333, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah they did. And we, they were really good to us. I mean they, you know, the total immersion thing where during the daytime we were not supposed to speak any English. And then even at night, you know, they wanted us to pretty much stay away from English. And of course we did all the cultural things with the kava and kava ceremony. And it was, it was a lot of fun. I mean, just imagine 120 people together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. It's a big group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So anyway, we spent that Christmas there in Lami, stayed at the Coop Education Center, and then we split. During that time, when we got to Fiji, like I said I think it was around the middle of December, maybe earlier, we went around to a lot of different co- operatives, primary cooperatives and different kinds, just to find out what they're all about. Because for most of us, cooperatives was kind of a thing that we didn't know about it. And I did have bookkeeping, so you know, I was familiar with accounting, I was familiar with all that. But we had to learn. In our work, we had to learn how to do all that, which of course came later on. But they did take us around to see a lot of different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was kind of an extension of your training once you got into country before you actually started working?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to ask you, you had a little transition in Hawaii, which is an island. So it may have been similar to Fiji, but when you landed in Fiji, what was the impression? What was that you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 22.664392301823867, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to ask you, you had a little transition in Hawaii, which is an island. So it may have been similar to Fiji, but when you landed in Fiji, what was the impression? What was that you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the smell. I mean, it was just, I'm not saying, just the smell of the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I guess maybe some fires were, the cooking fires were in the distance. But I remember that was one of the first things that, you know, that impressed me, that when I smelled what it was like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a good thing or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.919501468280195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. They wanted to do it. They wanted to do it. But with the whole cooperative thing, it's, uh, there's so many problems because a cooperative is kind of against the culture. Because if a cooperative is going to run efficiently, run efficiently, you can't give credit. Because when you give credit, generally it doesn't get paid back that quick or at all. And then the cooperative starts going down and down and doesn't have any money to, you know, to do different things. So you've got to, and so a lot of cooperatives failed for that reason. And some of them, uh. So like I said, that was the biggest problem we had. But again, we tried to encourage them. But again, it was hard. You know, like if a storekeeper, uh, the chief came in and didn't have any money and wanted something. It was pretty hard to turn him down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hard to say no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hard to say no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were you the only American, the only non-Fijian, on the island?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There's 500. Me and 500 Fijians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long did it take? You had to go there by boat, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 16.57722385364466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hard to say no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were you the only American, the only non-Fijian, on the island?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There's 500. Me and 500 Fijians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long did it take? You had to go there by boat, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take to get there by boat?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.710869483737529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's like if you went up on the copra boat, which is, you know, a good-sized boat, it would take a couple of days, but you'd make stops on the way up. But a couple of people on Thikombia, they had like motorboats, you know, like for, what 30 feet long? They're kind of closed in part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I went back and forth on them a few times, but they would still take quite a ways because you could barely see the tip of Vanua Levu from Thikombia. It was about 20 miles across there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So. So anyway, so I went up there and I got up there, let's say late in September. And I stayed there probably most of the time for the rest of that year. And then part of the next year, off and on, I was going back and doing some things in Labasa. And finally, I think it was, when was it now? Oh, after being up there, I decided that I wanted to extend, that I wanted to stay for longer than two years. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your two years was up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.778851214490777, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So. So anyway, so I went up there and I got up there, let's say late in September. And I stayed there probably most of the time for the rest of that year. And then part of the next year, off and on, I was going back and doing some things in Labasa. And finally, I think it was, when was it now? Oh, after being up there, I decided that I wanted to extend, that I wanted to stay for longer than two years. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your two years was up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two years was up the following year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In other words, I was in Thikombia pretty much for a year and plus a few months. And then in December of 1970, I left and I came back to America for, you know, they sent me for a couple of weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we leave Thikombia, tell me about the village. What kind of house did you live in? And did you travel?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.754279127211975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two years was up the following year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In other words, I was in Thikombia pretty much for a year and plus a few months. And then in December of 1970, I left and I came back to America for, you know, they sent me for a couple of weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we leave Thikombia, tell me about the village. What kind of house did you live in? And did you travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. The village I was in, it had a tin roof and it was, you know, wooden frame around it. But they also had bures, you know, the grass houses. In general, the grass houses were used for eating in and stuff, but not entirely. Some of the regular, you know, some of the regular houses were the grass houses. But the one we had was, like I said, wooden and, you know, it had windows and I slept on the floor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have a bed?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.838087919124415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In other words, I was in Thikombia pretty much for a year and plus a few months. And then in December of 1970, I left and I came back to America for, you know, they sent me for a couple of weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we leave Thikombia, tell me about the village. What kind of house did you live in? And did you travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. The village I was in, it had a tin roof and it was, you know, wooden frame around it. But they also had bures, you know, the grass houses. In general, the grass houses were used for eating in and stuff, but not entirely. Some of the regular, you know, some of the regular houses were the grass houses. But the one we had was, like I said, wooden and, you know, it had windows and I slept on the floor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have a bed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any kind of mattress or anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.04231991013824, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. The village I was in, it had a tin roof and it was, you know, wooden frame around it. But they also had bures, you know, the grass houses. In general, the grass houses were used for eating in and stuff, but not entirely. Some of the regular, you know, some of the regular houses were the grass houses. But the one we had was, like I said, wooden and, you know, it had windows and I slept on the floor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have a bed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any kind of mattress or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. But I got used to it and I think I slept on a blanket or something. They did have, in the house we were there, they did have, always had a regular bed there for guests, but I wasn't about to sleep in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you didn't stay? You didn't have your own house. You stayed with a family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.380355455709154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any kind of mattress or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. But I got used to it and I think I slept on a blanket or something. They did have, in the house we were there, they did have, always had a regular bed there for guests, but I wasn't about to sleep in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so you didn't stay? You didn't have your own house. You stayed with a family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I stayed with a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. And they also slept on mats on the floor probably."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.40784624161624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I stayed with a family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. And they also slept on mats on the floor probably."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. On the floor or else, in one of the grass house they would be, they would have softer mats, you know, floor wooden, wooden, wooden."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I would eat with them. They would eat, we would eat in a grass house that was near that house. And there was two families that lived together. They were, you know, relatives. And as we found later, I still keep up with those people after all these years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so living in the same house, did you become like part of the family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.90102365105108, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah. And one way that I knew I was part of the family was, you know, for a long time, if you did something wrong or, they wouldn't say anything for a long time. But then finally, when they started calling you down for things you were doing wrong as far as culturally or something, you knew that you're part of the family because they're treating you like the others."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was really a good turning point for me because I had one thing that was upsetting that happened to me. That's one thing that kind of sticks out. Some of the cooperatives I was working with, they were taking too big cash advances. You know, like when they'd send the bags of copra, they would let them take, like, so many dollars a bag. Like, if they had sent 100 bags, they'd let them have maybe $200 to use to buy copra or coconuts for the members. But consequently, that meant that they're not going to have that much money coming back to buy, you know, to buy consumer goods with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so at one point, it looked like they really needed to send as much money as possible. And they told me, they agreed, everybody agreed that they weren't going to take the cash advance, but they did. And I remember I was, I remember I was devastated for a while, but I just, I just finally realized that there was anything I could do about it, just had to deal with it. But I remember it was upsetting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you probably had to speak Fijian exclusively while you're there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.865461297593924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so at one point, it looked like they really needed to send as much money as possible. And they told me, they agreed, everybody agreed that they weren't going to take the cash advance, but they did. And I remember I was, I remember I was devastated for a while, but I just, I just finally realized that there was anything I could do about it, just had to deal with it. But I remember it was upsetting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you probably had to speak Fijian exclusively while you're there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. The man I stayed with, he had been in World War II over in the Solomons and he spoke good English. So he was a good, you know, anything I needed to know, he could tell me right away. But there are a lot of people up there that did not know English because they only had to take English through the eighth grade. And if they didn't go any further that, you know, and they're older, they probably never had a use for English anymore. So a lot of people, you know, didn't know that much English, but that was all right with me. It was good for me because it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I could learn it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you feel like you had a lack of privacy since you didn't have your own house, or did you just make yourself at home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.59375293033672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I went back other times for short periods of time and because again I knew so many families, I knew I wanted to go up and see them. And one of the last places I went before I even left Fiji in '73 was I went back up there early in '73, you know, to visit them again right after Christmas. But the base of the time I was there was that first year I was in, like I said, '69 and '70. And then when I came back in '71, we started a new project in the cooperatives and I went around to different cooperative societies with a young cooperatives officer. He was just a probably not much more than a teenager. And we would go around to cooperatives and villages for a one-night lesson on cooperative principles. You know, what the meaning of cooperative is, a little bit of management, just different things, around the kava bowl."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we did that to an awful lot of villages around Vanua Levu. And, you know, we'd drink grog and they'd feed us and we'd talk about, you know, whatever they wanted to talk about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he was your local counterpart?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember his name?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.215281033707466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we did that to an awful lot of villages around Vanua Levu. And, you know, we'd drink grog and they'd feed us and we'd talk about, you know, whatever they wanted to talk about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So he was your local counterpart?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember his name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Ismoey Johnny Vesey, I think he. I don't know what. Imosey Danny Vesey. I don't know if he's still in the Cooperative Department or not. He's one of the ones I never did look up when I went back. But some of, a lot of the others I, you know, I saw when I went back like in 1990, you know. So 2011. Of course, a lot of them have died. But he's probably the youngest one that, you know, that I've worked with. So I did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you living then? You had left Thikombia so where?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.90586781523052, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember his name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Ismoey Johnny Vesey, I think he. I don't know what. Imosey Danny Vesey. I don't know if he's still in the Cooperative Department or not. He's one of the ones I never did look up when I went back. But some of, a lot of the others I, you know, I saw when I went back like in 1990, you know. So 2011. Of course, a lot of them have died. But he's probably the youngest one that, you know, that I've worked with. So I did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you living then? You had left Thikombia so where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had, when I came back in early in '71, they had a batch of bachelors in Labasa, or people that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you're back in Labasa again?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.760330636087062, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had, when I came back in early in '71, they had a batch of bachelors in Labasa, or people that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you're back in Labasa again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, single people who worked government jobs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had a room there. So when I'd go out on these, you know, maybe go out for four or five, you know, during the week to these other places with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so it was the bachelor's quarters for the local Fiji government workers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 21.955922928985622, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, single people who worked government jobs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had a room there. So when I'd go out on these, you know, maybe go out for four or five, you know, during the week to these other places with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so it was the bachelor's quarters for the local Fiji government workers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the rest of the people there were Fijian and Indian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.839914365539578, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had a room there. So when I'd go out on these, you know, maybe go out for four or five, you know, during the week to these other places with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so it was the bachelor's quarters for the local Fiji government workers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the rest of the people there were Fijian and Indian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's right. And you could eat there too. So that was a good place to be. And so that's where I stayed while I was there. And I did that, like I said, from January until about I think it was about April or May. And I was down at Nabouwalu one time and Laisenia Qarase, who was at the time was in charge of the Coops Department. You know who that is, don't you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've heard the name."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.71101596171064, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the rest of the people there were Fijian and Indian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's right. And you could eat there too. So that was a good place to be. And so that's where I stayed while I was there. And I did that, like I said, from January until about I think it was about April or May. And I was down at Nabouwalu one time and Laisenia Qarase, who was at the time was in charge of the Coops Department. You know who that is, don't you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've heard the name."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he was also a prime minister that got deposed back early, you know, 2000s. But anyway, he asked me, he was down there, there was some kind of cooperative convention or something down there. And he asked me if I'd be interested in going to the Cooperatives Education Center and be in charge of that, the warden there at Lami. And so I went over there. Like I said, this was in like the middle of '71."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So and Lami is where?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.67890662412293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's right. And you could eat there too. So that was a good place to be. And so that's where I stayed while I was there. And I did that, like I said, from January until about I think it was about April or May. And I was down at Nabouwalu one time and Laisenia Qarase, who was at the time was in charge of the Coops Department. You know who that is, don't you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've heard the name."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he was also a prime minister that got deposed back early, you know, 2000s. But anyway, he asked me, he was down there, there was some kind of cooperative convention or something down there. And he asked me if I'd be interested in going to the Cooperatives Education Center and be in charge of that, the warden there at Lami. And so I went over there. Like I said, this was in like the middle of '71."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So and Lami is where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's next to Suva."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Suva. So it was a different island."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 20.75434069346992, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he was also a prime minister that got deposed back early, you know, 2000s. But anyway, he asked me, he was down there, there was some kind of cooperative convention or something down there. And he asked me if I'd be interested in going to the Cooperatives Education Center and be in charge of that, the warden there at Lami. And so I went over there. Like I said, this was in like the middle of '71."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So and Lami is where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's next to Suva."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Suva. So it was a different island."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, it was back on Viti Levu."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Suva is the capital city."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.838156326077689, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's next to Suva."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Suva. So it was a different island."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, it was back on Viti Levu."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Suva is the capital city."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It was right next to Suva. So anyway, so I went over there and talked. I knew the guy that was charge, it was an English guy. It was called VSO, Voluntary Service Overseas, from England. He had been in charge of that and he was getting ready to go back. I think it's two years or something. And they didn't have anybody else from England coming over and they wondered if I'd take over. So I went over there and figured, well, you know, why not? That seemed like a good job. So I went over there and I had, the courses that we had for the most part were like five week courses. And they were on bookkeeping, cooperative principles, cooperative law. And I forget what else about cooperatives.\n\nAnd we would take people from these villages that I had been visiting all along, you know, the secretaries and treasurers and even storekeepers, and teach them bookkeeping. And that was the main thing. And like I said, even corporate management in five weeks long. And the good thing about that was up until that time, the English VSOs didn't, were not, didn't have language training. So they were teaching it all in English. And a lot of the Fijians, like I mentioned before, if they hadn't been around, you know, in a situation, their English might not be that good. So we started teaching the courses in Fijian and we, you know, we'd translate everything into it and that seemed to be a plus for doing that.\n\nAnd also each year we'd have an overseas course. It was the second, like a secondary course for people from secondary cooperatives, which are bigger cooperatives. And they came from places like the Solomons, Solomon Islands, and Kiribati."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They would come to Fiji?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.350184920100121, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I mean the Indians did have some like sugar cane and stuff, but not as much as the Fijians did. So I did that until, uh. Let's see. Kind of the end of '70, close to the end of '72. And I had a cooperatives officer, Fijian, for working with me. And when I, you know, when it came time for me to leave, he took it over, you know, took charge of it. And so we were able to localize that position."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this the same guy that you mentioned before or a different guy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, this is Joele Colati."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Joele?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Colati. C-O-L-A-T-I. And I think he's deceased. So he took charge when I left. And so I officially left, I left in as of the 1st of January 1973, but I didn't really leave for four more months because I did some more work for, I think, written some reports on the last overseas course we'd had. And also I took a month's trip to New Zealand and Australia and came back to Fiji for a while. I didn't want to leave. And I think I finally left in about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were there for almost five years altogether?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.259487555679161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Colati. C-O-L-A-T-I. And I think he's deceased. So he took charge when I left. And so I officially left, I left in as of the 1st of January 1973, but I didn't really leave for four more months because I did some more work for, I think, written some reports on the last overseas course we'd had. And also I took a month's trip to New Zealand and Australia and came back to Fiji for a while. I didn't want to leave. And I think I finally left in about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were there for almost five years altogether?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I probably left in April or May of '73."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, you reached your limit. So far you've lived in Labasa, Thikombia, Labasa again, and then back in Suva?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.732763950754624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I probably left in April or May of '73."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, you reached your limit. So far you've lived in Labasa, Thikombia, Labasa again, and then back in Suva?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different. Very different situations. How did you like living in Suva compared to the other places?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.842918457721757, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different. Very different situations. How did you like living in Suva compared to the other places?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I mean, it was more, it was away from the village and I remember that the job that I had being in charge of that was, of course, it was much, much more stressful than the other jobs I'd had. I remember that because, you know, like there were like 40 people taking those courses. And, you know, I had to be, order the food, and, you know, the cooks and, you know, be the, and also teach. So I remember it was a job that was something I kind of looked forward to completing whenever I did, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, I was alright with doing it while I was doing it, but it was something I was, it was not, it was not that much in my comfort zone as the other things had been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So talking about Peace Corps' goals. One is to provide technical assistance where requested. And in your position there, it sounds like you did quite a bit of that. How do you think your job?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.201524933058575, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, got paid more. And the big mountains of coconuts went down and, you know, the coconuts got processed and sent to market and things got right. But it even took me a while before I understood it. And later on I realized, I must have been pretty stupid not to realize it. But then after it happened, everything was good. I mean, it was, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But that wasn't a standard practice, so you had to implement that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at least in Thikombia. I'm not sure what they do, you know, other places, how they would, you know, do it communally or not. But that was a big eye opener. But again, the whole thing about getting them to, you know, not give credit was awful. You know, it was difficult because, you know, sometimes they would. The co-op officers would go in cooperatives and they would, the bookkeeper would have a book of, you know, that all the sales were in, and they would have another book that had the credit in it. And the co-op officers usually were wise to it and would say, well, let's see your other book too. And the other book was kind of their downfall because that was the one that they got all these goods without any money coming in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then when I went back there in 1990, I noticed that cooperatives had, uh, the emphasis on cooperatives had gone down a lot. And as it turned out, it looked like for largely, I think a lot of the people who had learned, you know, how to do the bookkeeping and management and all that in cooperatives, they took that knowledge and started going out on their own, private enterprise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Starting a private business."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.112805481176194, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at least in Thikombia. I'm not sure what they do, you know, other places, how they would, you know, do it communally or not. But that was a big eye opener. But again, the whole thing about getting them to, you know, not give credit was awful. You know, it was difficult because, you know, sometimes they would. The co-op officers would go in cooperatives and they would, the bookkeeper would have a book of, you know, that all the sales were in, and they would have another book that had the credit in it. And the co-op officers usually were wise to it and would say, well, let's see your other book too. And the other book was kind of their downfall because that was the one that they got all these goods without any money coming in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then when I went back there in 1990, I noticed that cooperatives had, uh, the emphasis on cooperatives had gone down a lot. And as it turned out, it looked like for largely, I think a lot of the people who had learned, you know, how to do the bookkeeping and management and all that in cooperatives, they took that knowledge and started going out on their own, private enterprise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Starting a private business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's what happened a lot because cooperatives, as far as I know, are not anything as prevalent. I think maybe their time had kind of, you know, because they were useful, because they taught people how to, you know, the business savvy. But as far as the cooperative part of it, it just looked like maybe they're kind of, you know, going by the wayside. So that was an interesting thing that I found out when I went back there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about Peace Corps' goal to promote a better understanding of Americans? Being the only American when you're out there on Thikombia, do you feel like you had some impact there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.5590191125632025, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that's what happened a lot because cooperatives, as far as I know, are not anything as prevalent. I think maybe their time had kind of, you know, because they were useful, because they taught people how to, you know, the business savvy. But as far as the cooperative part of it, it just looked like maybe they're kind of, you know, going by the wayside. So that was an interesting thing that I found out when I went back there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about Peace Corps' goal to promote a better understanding of Americans? Being the only American when you're out there on Thikombia, do you feel like you had some impact there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, as I've said before, since the last couple of times I've been back, especially last summer, there's so many people up on that island now, kids and grandkids, that I keep up with on, you know, like on Facebook. And it's amazing. I mean, I think being up there, we became friends for life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really think because there's so many people from Thikombia that I keep in touch with now. Some of them live in California and a lot of them we've become friends. And the next time I go back, I'm going to be looking up a bunch of them again. But again, that's from the. But over the years, like when I went back in 1990, there weren't that many, there wasn't anything like the internet or anything then. But I still looked up, went back to Thikombia, actually took my wife up to Thikombia. And, you know, I saw a bunch of people that I'd known. So it was life changing and continues to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any big revelations there about, or maybe things that surprised people about you or maybe that changed their assumptions about what Americans were like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.176687902848003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, as I've said before, since the last couple of times I've been back, especially last summer, there's so many people up on that island now, kids and grandkids, that I keep up with on, you know, like on Facebook. And it's amazing. I mean, I think being up there, we became friends for life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really think because there's so many people from Thikombia that I keep in touch with now. Some of them live in California and a lot of them we've become friends. And the next time I go back, I'm going to be looking up a bunch of them again. But again, that's from the. But over the years, like when I went back in 1990, there weren't that many, there wasn't anything like the internet or anything then. But I still looked up, went back to Thikombia, actually took my wife up to Thikombia. And, you know, I saw a bunch of people that I'd known. So it was life changing and continues to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any big revelations there about, or maybe things that surprised people about you or maybe that changed their assumptions about what Americans were like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that, but I do know that. Excuse me. [coughs] The son of the family I stayed with up there, I'm back in touch with him now. I stayed with him last summer. He's 60 now, has kids and grandkids. And he mentioned something I'd completely forgotten about, that I'd helped him pay some school fees. I'd helped send him to secondary school when I was up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was when you were a volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.862986558720003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really think because there's so many people from Thikombia that I keep in touch with now. Some of them live in California and a lot of them we've become friends. And the next time I go back, I'm going to be looking up a bunch of them again. But again, that's from the. But over the years, like when I went back in 1990, there weren't that many, there wasn't anything like the internet or anything then. But I still looked up, went back to Thikombia, actually took my wife up to Thikombia. And, you know, I saw a bunch of people that I'd known. So it was life changing and continues to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall any big revelations there about, or maybe things that surprised people about you or maybe that changed their assumptions about what Americans were like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that, but I do know that. Excuse me. [coughs] The son of the family I stayed with up there, I'm back in touch with him now. I stayed with him last summer. He's 60 now, has kids and grandkids. And he mentioned something I'd completely forgotten about, that I'd helped him pay some school fees. I'd helped send him to secondary school when I was up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was when you were a volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, I've forgotten about it, but it was something that, you know, he'd always forgotten, always remembered. But again, it just remembering all those people and, you know, loving them and everything. I think that's one reason they remembered me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, then there's the goal of promoting a better understanding of other people by Americans. And you started out talking about how in the Navy you had had some experience with developing countries that were less fortunate cultures."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.625540620800003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that, but I do know that. Excuse me. [coughs] The son of the family I stayed with up there, I'm back in touch with him now. I stayed with him last summer. He's 60 now, has kids and grandkids. And he mentioned something I'd completely forgotten about, that I'd helped him pay some school fees. I'd helped send him to secondary school when I was up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was when you were a volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, I've forgotten about it, but it was something that, you know, he'd always forgotten, always remembered. But again, it just remembering all those people and, you know, loving them and everything. I think that's one reason they remembered me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, then there's the goal of promoting a better understanding of other people by Americans. And you started out talking about how in the Navy you had had some experience with developing countries that were less fortunate cultures."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your time in the Peace Corps, do you think that changed your view of people or gave you a better understanding?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.414247680000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your time in the Peace Corps, do you think that changed your view of people or gave you a better understanding?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but Fijians for the most part weren't that, you know, they seemed like they always had food. It wasn't like they were in poverty, like some of these other places are. I mean, I'm sure there are places in Fiji where people are really down and out, but it seems like the families in Fiji helped carry people along. You know, so one member of the family's having problems, the other, you know, the other members will help. And of course that's the cultural thing anyway. Also because it was like if somebody needed something and somebody else could help them, it was culturally they should. And I think that was just an important part of the culture. And so, at times I helped different things that.\n\nActually the guy that I stayed with, he was [inaudible] on Thikombia and he had gotten in trouble somehow with the law, with some, I'm not sure what it was, but they came up there one time. The police came up there and got him took him back to Labasa, and he had to go to trial for something or another. And he said he was going to pay so much or he had to go to jail. So I ended up paying that too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But again, I didn't mind doing it. And it was, you know, something I could have refused to do, but I didn't want to refuse because I, you know, had enough money to do it. But, you know, different ways you could help out. And I think that, I think enough, I think in that way the people realized where your heart is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after five years in the country, you had a lot of close friends and it must have been really hard to leave."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.460275200000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but Fijians for the most part weren't that, you know, they seemed like they always had food. It wasn't like they were in poverty, like some of these other places are. I mean, I'm sure there are places in Fiji where people are really down and out, but it seems like the families in Fiji helped carry people along. You know, so one member of the family's having problems, the other, you know, the other members will help. And of course that's the cultural thing anyway. Also because it was like if somebody needed something and somebody else could help them, it was culturally they should. And I think that was just an important part of the culture. And so, at times I helped different things that.\n\nActually the guy that I stayed with, he was [inaudible] on Thikombia and he had gotten in trouble somehow with the law, with some, I'm not sure what it was, but they came up there one time. The police came up there and got him took him back to Labasa, and he had to go to trial for something or another. And he said he was going to pay so much or he had to go to jail. So I ended up paying that too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But again, I didn't mind doing it. And it was, you know, something I could have refused to do, but I didn't want to refuse because I, you know, had enough money to do it. But, you know, different ways you could help out. And I think that, I think enough, I think in that way the people realized where your heart is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after five years in the country, you had a lot of close friends and it must have been really hard to leave."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember that day when you had to get on the plane?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.913920000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember that day when you had to get on the plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was sad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it took me, when I came back here, I think, like a lot of Peace Corps, they travel around a while. And when I first came back, I came across country in a bus and I even I went and looked up Mike Babich."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh you did?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.3488, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was sad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it took me, when I came back here, I think, like a lot of Peace Corps, they travel around a while. And when I first came back, I came across country in a bus and I even I went and looked up Mike Babich."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh you did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, my roommate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He didn't stay for five years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 14.832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it took me, when I came back here, I think, like a lot of Peace Corps, they travel around a while. And when I first came back, I came across country in a bus and I even I went and looked up Mike Babich."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh you did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, my roommate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He didn't stay for five years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, unfortunately. But and I still talk to him once in a while. He's working at a co-op up above Philadelphia that's like a big farm. And people with handicaps work there, live there and work there. And he's one of the administrators there. So it looks like he found himself a good niche."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what kind of effect has your Peace Corps service had on the rest of your life since then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about that trip."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, I think one of the goals of. I went back in 1990 first, took my wife for three weeks, and we went around a lot of places and looked up people we'd known. And then my wife, I went in 2011, we did a project. My wife had passed away in 2007, but we had a project. We did a project for the Habitat for Humanity. And the way I feel like going back to Fiji was if I'm going to go that far, I need to do something, you know, not be selfish, like not be a tourist. And that's why I really appreciated what we did back in 2011, because I was able to do that for the first week and then go up to Labasa the second week and look up people. And the same thing last year. You know, that project we did at Ba was, I thought it was excellent. But then I was able to go around and see other people. I didn't get to Labasa, but I visited some other people that were from Thikombia that lived around Nadi. And one of them's growing sandalwood. He's in the sandalwood business now. And that's the son of the man, family I stayed with up in Thikombia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I've really enjoyed going back, but I would not want to go back as a tourist. I haven't gotten close to a tourist resort. Just not interested in doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So 50 years later you're still connected with Fiji and Peace Corps is still a big part of your life."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, I think one of the goals of. I went back in 1990 first, took my wife for three weeks, and we went around a lot of places and looked up people we'd known. And then my wife, I went in 2011, we did a project. My wife had passed away in 2007, but we had a project. We did a project for the Habitat for Humanity. And the way I feel like going back to Fiji was if I'm going to go that far, I need to do something, you know, not be selfish, like not be a tourist. And that's why I really appreciated what we did back in 2011, because I was able to do that for the first week and then go up to Labasa the second week and look up people. And the same thing last year. You know, that project we did at Ba was, I thought it was excellent. But then I was able to go around and see other people. I didn't get to Labasa, but I visited some other people that were from Thikombia that lived around Nadi. And one of them's growing sandalwood. He's in the sandalwood business now. And that's the son of the man, family I stayed with up in Thikombia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I've really enjoyed going back, but I would not want to go back as a tourist. I haven't gotten close to a tourist resort. Just not interested in doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So 50 years later you're still connected with Fiji and Peace Corps is still a big part of your life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. Anything else you'd like to add? Any stories you remember that might be interesting or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00112:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I've really enjoyed going back, but I would not want to go back as a tourist. I haven't gotten close to a tourist resort. Just not interested in doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So 50 years later you're still connected with Fiji and Peace Corps is still a big part of your life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. Anything else you'd like to add? Any stories you remember that might be interesting or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, let me think. I can't think of anything offhand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. All right, Lew. Well, thanks a lot. It's been a great interview."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00064:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 7.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Our lawyer, Ragan [L.] Powers, who is a brilliant lawyer and a great guy, and a dear friend, worked very closely with his counterpart. I felt the discussions there were very professional, and when we worked through the terms and conditions of our Space Act Agreement, I felt the working relationship was very good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What, for you, was the biggest challenge working on this program in your role at Rocketplane Kistler?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting the commitment to raise the $500 million. When I first went to Rocketplane Kistler, that was not supposed to be my role, but I ended up doing that as well. I became the lead in that effort. It was a new experience for me, and I certainly learned from it. My experience had not been on Wall Street and road shows, but fortunately Jefferies Quarterdeck put me through a very painful boot camp before we did go on the road show. The quality of our presentation and that sort of thing I don’t think was ever an issue. It was never an issue about the capabilities of the management team. The real issue was the financeability and the disconnect with the lack of a follow-on servicing contract."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you said that was not your role when you originally joined Kistler, what was your role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My role was not to raise the money. My role was to win the COTS competition, and to lead the team to develop the vehicle, not unlike what I did at the Space Station."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were more focused on the technical side at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00064:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Getting the commitment to raise the $500 million. When I first went to Rocketplane Kistler, that was not supposed to be my role, but I ended up doing that as well. I became the lead in that effort. It was a new experience for me, and I certainly learned from it. My experience had not been on Wall Street and road shows, but fortunately Jefferies Quarterdeck put me through a very painful boot camp before we did go on the road show. The quality of our presentation and that sort of thing I don’t think was ever an issue. It was never an issue about the capabilities of the management team. The real issue was the financeability and the disconnect with the lack of a follow-on servicing contract."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you said that was not your role when you originally joined Kistler, what was your role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My role was not to raise the money. My role was to win the COTS competition, and to lead the team to develop the vehicle, not unlike what I did at the Space Station."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were more focused on the technical side at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was like being the Space Station Program Manager. I was in Johnson Space Center or in Baikonur [Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan], making sure all of the modules were being built, stayed on schedule, and they would actually work. My job was not in Washington, DC, to go to Congress to commit to funding. Occasionally I’d have to do it, but that wasn’t my full-time role.\\n\\n I started out focusing on building the vehicle and staying on schedule and cost, and managing like a program manager, but ended up assuming the responsibilities of, in addition to that, going to raise the money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any additional thoughts or reflections you’d like to share before we close today?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00064:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My role was not to raise the money. My role was to win the COTS competition, and to lead the team to develop the vehicle, not unlike what I did at the Space Station."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were more focused on the technical side at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was like being the Space Station Program Manager. I was in Johnson Space Center or in Baikonur [Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan], making sure all of the modules were being built, stayed on schedule, and they would actually work. My job was not in Washington, DC, to go to Congress to commit to funding. Occasionally I’d have to do it, but that wasn’t my full-time role.\\n\\n I started out focusing on building the vehicle and staying on schedule and cost, and managing like a program manager, but ended up assuming the responsibilities of, in addition to that, going to raise the money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any additional thoughts or reflections you’d like to share before we close today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say that I’m really happy and pleased to see the success of SpaceX and the recent success of Orbital. At the end of the day, although I’m disappointed about Rocketplane Kistler and the K-1, that’s secondary to the fact that COTS has been successful.\\n\\n We now are in a position to get the Russians off the critical path, at least for cargo, and to be able to take cargo up and bring cargo back with a reliable transportation system, particularly science. We, in the future, should be able to see the opportunity to have breakthrough science associated with the Space Station, which was the purpose to begin with. I’m very pleased to see how things have worked out, and that we’ve got two providers that have so far been successful in terms of meeting their capabilities to provide cargo to the Space Station."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very much for sharing all that with us today. We very much appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00064:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was like being the Space Station Program Manager. I was in Johnson Space Center or in Baikonur [Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan], making sure all of the modules were being built, stayed on schedule, and they would actually work. My job was not in Washington, DC, to go to Congress to commit to funding. Occasionally I’d have to do it, but that wasn’t my full-time role.\\n\\n I started out focusing on building the vehicle and staying on schedule and cost, and managing like a program manager, but ended up assuming the responsibilities of, in addition to that, going to raise the money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any additional thoughts or reflections you’d like to share before we close today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say that I’m really happy and pleased to see the success of SpaceX and the recent success of Orbital. At the end of the day, although I’m disappointed about Rocketplane Kistler and the K-1, that’s secondary to the fact that COTS has been successful.\\n\\n We now are in a position to get the Russians off the critical path, at least for cargo, and to be able to take cargo up and bring cargo back with a reliable transportation system, particularly science. We, in the future, should be able to see the opportunity to have breakthrough science associated with the Space Station, which was the purpose to begin with. I’m very pleased to see how things have worked out, and that we’ve got two providers that have so far been successful in terms of meeting their capabilities to provide cargo to the Space Station."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very much for sharing all that with us today. We very much appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s my pleasure. And I will send you a copy of the letter that I sent to Doc, and you guys will have it as part of the reference. It’s very consistent with our discussion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We really appreciate your time, Randy. Have a great day. Thank you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.105004989119124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're welcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'd like for you to start by just generally telling us what your roles and responsibilities have been with the Shuttle-Mir Program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've served [both] as the secretary for the Deputy Director, who was Frank Culbertson at the time who got promoted to Director. Then, I became the Director's secretary. In that capacity, I am responsible for the functions of the [Phase 1] front office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long have you been doing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Since November of '94 to the present."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Frank have been together through many a times through these last few years."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.22778332124347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've served [both] as the secretary for the Deputy Director, who was Frank Culbertson at the time who got promoted to Director. Then, I became the Director's secretary. In that capacity, I am responsible for the functions of the [Phase 1] front office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long have you been doing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Since November of '94 to the present."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Frank have been together through many a times through these last few years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's true. I started working for him in September of '85."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I have to assume that that working partnership helped through the Shuttle-Mir Program, that you developed in the early years."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.475314801381632, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Since November of '94 to the present."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Frank have been together through many a times through these last few years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's true. I started working for him in September of '85."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I have to assume that that working partnership helped through the Shuttle-Mir Program, that you developed in the early years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very much so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do prior to becoming his assistant?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.750349779312923, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's true. I started working for him in September of '85."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I have to assume that that working partnership helped through the Shuttle-Mir Program, that you developed in the early years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very much so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do prior to becoming his assistant?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the Shuttle-Mir Program, or before '94?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before '94. Well, before the Shuttle-Mir Program, when you first starting working with Frank."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.94483308812547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very much so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do prior to becoming his assistant?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the Shuttle-Mir Program, or before '94?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before '94. Well, before the Shuttle-Mir Program, when you first starting working with Frank."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the crew secretary in the astronaut office. I worked with the Shuttle crews, their families, taking care of all their invitations, their guests, their VIPs, went with them to the Capes, saw that everybody followed the procedures down there, and returned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did all those experiences help you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.272036764583856, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the Shuttle-Mir Program, or before '94?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before '94. Well, before the Shuttle-Mir Program, when you first starting working with Frank."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the crew secretary in the astronaut office. I worked with the Shuttle crews, their families, taking care of all their invitations, their guests, their VIPs, went with them to the Capes, saw that everybody followed the procedures down there, and returned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did all those experiences help you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Immensely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, tell us, is there an average day in your job? Is there anything that's routine about your job?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.635596405093173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the crew secretary in the astronaut office. I worked with the Shuttle crews, their families, taking care of all their invitations, their guests, their VIPs, went with them to the Capes, saw that everybody followed the procedures down there, and returned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did all those experiences help you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Immensely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, tell us, is there an average day in your job? Is there anything that's routine about your job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. You do the same type things every day, they're just in a different order. There's always correspondence, phones, schedules, but they're very flexible and changing constantly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How has it changed, say, from just the time that Frank was deputy director to becoming the program director? Did your duties change quite a bit?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.150662672325748, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Immensely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, tell us, is there an average day in your job? Is there anything that's routine about your job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. You do the same type things every day, they're just in a different order. There's always correspondence, phones, schedules, but they're very flexible and changing constantly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How has it changed, say, from just the time that Frank was deputy director to becoming the program director? Did your duties change quite a bit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I became the lead secretary, so therefore that put two to three secretaries under me at the time, which added to responsibilities. Frank's position increased greatly, which caused mine to increase, and the workload to increase."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's the hardest part? Is it keeping up with Frank, or is it keeping up with schedules, or keeping up with phone calls? What's the most difficult part of your day-to-day job?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.834069635917498, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. You do the same type things every day, they're just in a different order. There's always correspondence, phones, schedules, but they're very flexible and changing constantly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How has it changed, say, from just the time that Frank was deputy director to becoming the program director? Did your duties change quite a bit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I became the lead secretary, so therefore that put two to three secretaries under me at the time, which added to responsibilities. Frank's position increased greatly, which caused mine to increase, and the workload to increase."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's the hardest part? Is it keeping up with Frank, or is it keeping up with schedules, or keeping up with phone calls? What's the most difficult part of your day-to-day job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Rearranging the schedule to work both for what he needs and what needs to be accomplished in the office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How has your position changed as far as meeting responsibilities? Do you find yourself going to more and more meetings during the last few years with the Shuttle-Mir Program that maybe you did prior to Frank moving into this position?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.593410706574996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I became the lead secretary, so therefore that put two to three secretaries under me at the time, which added to responsibilities. Frank's position increased greatly, which caused mine to increase, and the workload to increase."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's the hardest part? Is it keeping up with Frank, or is it keeping up with schedules, or keeping up with phone calls? What's the most difficult part of your day-to-day job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Rearranging the schedule to work both for what he needs and what needs to be accomplished in the office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How has your position changed as far as meeting responsibilities? Do you find yourself going to more and more meetings during the last few years with the Shuttle-Mir Program that maybe you did prior to Frank moving into this position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've gone to a few more meetings, not necessarily so much the technical side of the Shuttle-Mir Program, but more in like archiving the records, the projects like the Shuttle-Mir Oral History Project I've become involved with. Starting to go to more meetings with the International Space Station now, and getting more involved doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you did everything you did prior to Shuttle-Mir, you dealt mostly with American and American families. But, of course, this program had an added benefit that you never had before, and that was dealing with the international partners. Tell us how that came about, and what were some of the first times. Can you remember maybe the first time that you ever met the Russians? Was that here in your office?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.32601189619444, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Rearranging the schedule to work both for what he needs and what needs to be accomplished in the office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How has your position changed as far as meeting responsibilities? Do you find yourself going to more and more meetings during the last few years with the Shuttle-Mir Program that maybe you did prior to Frank moving into this position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've gone to a few more meetings, not necessarily so much the technical side of the Shuttle-Mir Program, but more in like archiving the records, the projects like the Shuttle-Mir Oral History Project I've become involved with. Starting to go to more meetings with the International Space Station now, and getting more involved doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you did everything you did prior to Shuttle-Mir, you dealt mostly with American and American families. But, of course, this program had an added benefit that you never had before, and that was dealing with the international partners. Tell us how that came about, and what were some of the first times. Can you remember maybe the first time that you ever met the Russians? Was that here in your office?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was over in the astronaut office. It was Sergei Krikalev was the first one I met, and Pavel Titov."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that part of their STS-60?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.02890210688271, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've gone to a few more meetings, not necessarily so much the technical side of the Shuttle-Mir Program, but more in like archiving the records, the projects like the Shuttle-Mir Oral History Project I've become involved with. Starting to go to more meetings with the International Space Station now, and getting more involved doing that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you did everything you did prior to Shuttle-Mir, you dealt mostly with American and American families. But, of course, this program had an added benefit that you never had before, and that was dealing with the international partners. Tell us how that came about, and what were some of the first times. Can you remember maybe the first time that you ever met the Russians? Was that here in your office?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was over in the astronaut office. It was Sergei Krikalev was the first one I met, and Pavel Titov."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that part of their STS-60?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "STS-60 and STS-63 flights. That was the first exposure and then the Russians starting coming over, and I met some of the flight surgeons. I tried to learn a little bit of Russian, learned not to speak it around them, because once you spoke a few words, they thought you knew it all and just started speaking in Russian. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was their English?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.921002340980788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that was over in the astronaut office. It was Sergei Krikalev was the first one I met, and Pavel Titov."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that part of their STS-60?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "STS-60 and STS-63 flights. That was the first exposure and then the Russians starting coming over, and I met some of the flight surgeons. I tried to learn a little bit of Russian, learned not to speak it around them, because once you spoke a few words, they thought you knew it all and just started speaking in Russian. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was their English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them had very good English, and some of them you needed interpreters with completely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that another part of your responsibility, helping with the translators and the interpreters?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 18.801113712200873, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "STS-60 and STS-63 flights. That was the first exposure and then the Russians starting coming over, and I met some of the flight surgeons. I tried to learn a little bit of Russian, learned not to speak it around them, because once you spoke a few words, they thought you knew it all and just started speaking in Russian. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was their English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them had very good English, and some of them you needed interpreters with completely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that another part of your responsibility, helping with the translators and the interpreters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did the logistics portion of it. I [requested and authorized] them when they were needed, saw they were at the right meeting places, that we had the right numbers of interpreters, sent [information] off to be translated for the documentation, saw that it came back and matched up as much as I could. [I] arranged for that kind of interpretation down at the Cape [in] Florida and anywheres else where they traveled. [I] took some Russian [classes] myself, but it's a difficult language to learn and you have to really stay at it, [and at the time the work load in the office precluded being away, attending class four times a week]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The trips to the Cape, what all were your responsibilities as far as those? How often did you have to go down to the Cape? Was that every mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.223459680223192, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them had very good English, and some of them you needed interpreters with completely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that another part of your responsibility, helping with the translators and the interpreters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did the logistics portion of it. I [requested and authorized] them when they were needed, saw they were at the right meeting places, that we had the right numbers of interpreters, sent [information] off to be translated for the documentation, saw that it came back and matched up as much as I could. [I] arranged for that kind of interpretation down at the Cape [in] Florida and anywheres else where they traveled. [I] took some Russian [classes] myself, but it's a difficult language to learn and you have to really stay at it, [and at the time the work load in the office precluded being away, attending class four times a week]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The trips to the Cape, what all were your responsibilities as far as those? How often did you have to go down to the Cape? Was that every mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I went to every other mission for the Shuttle-Mir Program. Just logistics, you set up all your Team Zero [meetings], which was a joint working group meeting between the Russians and the Americans. I handled all the meeting places, [coordinating] their meeting schedule, saw to it they got to the places they were supposed to get on time. I set up any of the receptions that were needed down there; took care of them for their tours; their viewing of the launch; saw to it they got from the airport to the airport [by making arrangements with TechTrans Inc. (TTI)]; took care of the Americans that were down there supporting those meetings; making sure that the faxes were sent; the meetings were set up. Some of the [meetings were held at] two or three o'clock in the morning, since they were eight to nine hours ahead of us in Russia. Sometimes it required multiple meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Meetings upon meetings, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.803844089136879, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did the logistics portion of it. I [requested and authorized] them when they were needed, saw they were at the right meeting places, that we had the right numbers of interpreters, sent [information] off to be translated for the documentation, saw that it came back and matched up as much as I could. [I] arranged for that kind of interpretation down at the Cape [in] Florida and anywheres else where they traveled. [I] took some Russian [classes] myself, but it's a difficult language to learn and you have to really stay at it, [and at the time the work load in the office precluded being away, attending class four times a week]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The trips to the Cape, what all were your responsibilities as far as those? How often did you have to go down to the Cape? Was that every mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I went to every other mission for the Shuttle-Mir Program. Just logistics, you set up all your Team Zero [meetings], which was a joint working group meeting between the Russians and the Americans. I handled all the meeting places, [coordinating] their meeting schedule, saw to it they got to the places they were supposed to get on time. I set up any of the receptions that were needed down there; took care of them for their tours; their viewing of the launch; saw to it they got from the airport to the airport [by making arrangements with TechTrans Inc. (TTI)]; took care of the Americans that were down there supporting those meetings; making sure that the faxes were sent; the meetings were set up. Some of the [meetings were held at] two or three o'clock in the morning, since they were eight to nine hours ahead of us in Russia. Sometimes it required multiple meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Meetings upon meetings, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a Russian counterpart? Was there somebody on the other side that you could deal with directly, or did you talk to lots of people when you called Moscow?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.1153823212632, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I went to every other mission for the Shuttle-Mir Program. Just logistics, you set up all your Team Zero [meetings], which was a joint working group meeting between the Russians and the Americans. I handled all the meeting places, [coordinating] their meeting schedule, saw to it they got to the places they were supposed to get on time. I set up any of the receptions that were needed down there; took care of them for their tours; their viewing of the launch; saw to it they got from the airport to the airport [by making arrangements with TechTrans Inc. (TTI)]; took care of the Americans that were down there supporting those meetings; making sure that the faxes were sent; the meetings were set up. Some of the [meetings were held at] two or three o'clock in the morning, since they were eight to nine hours ahead of us in Russia. Sometimes it required multiple meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Meetings upon meetings, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a Russian counterpart? Was there somebody on the other side that you could deal with directly, or did you talk to lots of people when you called Moscow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We talked to lots of people. There are secretaries over in Star City, Natasha being one of them, [she was very helpful]. We dealt with her some. Mostly it was Americans over in the TsUP and in the Embassy that we dealt with, or our Director of Operations in Russia, who has different people at times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it take you a while to get used to getting phone calls from Russia, or was that just something that became part of your daily duty as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.128202579181332, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a Russian counterpart? Was there somebody on the other side that you could deal with directly, or did you talk to lots of people when you called Moscow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We talked to lots of people. There are secretaries over in Star City, Natasha being one of them, [she was very helpful]. We dealt with her some. Mostly it was Americans over in the TsUP and in the Embassy that we dealt with, or our Director of Operations in Russia, who has different people at times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it take you a while to get used to getting phone calls from Russia, or was that just something that became part of your daily duty as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was just something that became part of the daily duty, because with the Shuttle Program, we had Swedish people, we had French people, German, from different payloads and different astronauts. So that's just something that we've dealt with for a long period of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is language the hardest part, or was there something else that you felt to be difficult when you had such a variety of international partners, especially the Russians?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.14244731020148, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We talked to lots of people. There are secretaries over in Star City, Natasha being one of them, [she was very helpful]. We dealt with her some. Mostly it was Americans over in the TsUP and in the Embassy that we dealt with, or our Director of Operations in Russia, who has different people at times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it take you a while to get used to getting phone calls from Russia, or was that just something that became part of your daily duty as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was just something that became part of the daily duty, because with the Shuttle Program, we had Swedish people, we had French people, German, from different payloads and different astronauts. So that's just something that we've dealt with for a long period of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is language the hardest part, or was there something else that you felt to be difficult when you had such a variety of international partners, especially the Russians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The language is a difficulty, but then again you have the interpreters. They have a different way of looking at life than what we do. Whereas we're more linear and time controlled, they're more people oriented. They may be an hour late for a meeting and think nothing of it, because they were doing something with the families, whereas if the Americans are an hour late, they want to know why you're an hour late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that just made your job more of a challenge to get those meetings rescheduled."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.269385900223865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was just something that became part of the daily duty, because with the Shuttle Program, we had Swedish people, we had French people, German, from different payloads and different astronauts. So that's just something that we've dealt with for a long period of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is language the hardest part, or was there something else that you felt to be difficult when you had such a variety of international partners, especially the Russians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The language is a difficulty, but then again you have the interpreters. They have a different way of looking at life than what we do. Whereas we're more linear and time controlled, they're more people oriented. They may be an hour late for a meeting and think nothing of it, because they were doing something with the families, whereas if the Americans are an hour late, they want to know why you're an hour late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that just made your job more of a challenge to get those meetings rescheduled."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a calm time during Shuttle-Mir in your office? Was it busier during the missions than when you weren't having a mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.188206555804294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The language is a difficulty, but then again you have the interpreters. They have a different way of looking at life than what we do. Whereas we're more linear and time controlled, they're more people oriented. They may be an hour late for a meeting and think nothing of it, because they were doing something with the families, whereas if the Americans are an hour late, they want to know why you're an hour late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that just made your job more of a challenge to get those meetings rescheduled."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a calm time during Shuttle-Mir in your office? Was it busier during the missions than when you weren't having a mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we never did not have a mission after Norm [Thagard] went up, because we had continuous American presence on board the Mir; therefore, we were always active. We did have some busier times than others, especially when some function is going on on the Mir, but it stayed pretty busy for the last four years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just like one continuous day."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.209118395338104, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a calm time during Shuttle-Mir in your office? Was it busier during the missions than when you weren't having a mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we never did not have a mission after Norm [Thagard] went up, because we had continuous American presence on board the Mir; therefore, we were always active. We did have some busier times than others, especially when some function is going on on the Mir, but it stayed pretty busy for the last four years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just like one continuous day."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One very long day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had so much experience when you took on these additional responsibilities, but knowing how much must happen in this office, I'm sure there was lots of things that you were able to learn. Did you find yourself being able to move into different directions, or learning different areas that helped make the job easier or more efficient?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.343464883709004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we never did not have a mission after Norm [Thagard] went up, because we had continuous American presence on board the Mir; therefore, we were always active. We did have some busier times than others, especially when some function is going on on the Mir, but it stayed pretty busy for the last four years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just like one continuous day."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One very long day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had so much experience when you took on these additional responsibilities, but knowing how much must happen in this office, I'm sure there was lots of things that you were able to learn. Did you find yourself being able to move into different directions, or learning different areas that helped make the job easier or more efficient?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is true, yes. I took a lot of different courses in the Russian culture. That helped a lot, made it more easier to get along with some of them, look at things from their point of perspective instead of just ours, which is a little bit different. I'm trying to think of some good ways of putting it. It's just a continual learning experience. The more you get to know them, the more you are involved in things. You just learn by a process of trial and error."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Russians, I guess, too, after a while, learn that they could come to you and get information. Did you feel like your family of astronaut extended family just grew?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.603849870787782, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One very long day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had so much experience when you took on these additional responsibilities, but knowing how much must happen in this office, I'm sure there was lots of things that you were able to learn. Did you find yourself being able to move into different directions, or learning different areas that helped make the job easier or more efficient?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is true, yes. I took a lot of different courses in the Russian culture. That helped a lot, made it more easier to get along with some of them, look at things from their point of perspective instead of just ours, which is a little bit different. I'm trying to think of some good ways of putting it. It's just a continual learning experience. The more you get to know them, the more you are involved in things. You just learn by a process of trial and error."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Russians, I guess, too, after a while, learn that they could come to you and get information. Did you feel like your family of astronaut extended family just grew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To a certain extent. There's quite a few of them that would do that. A lot of the managers that were over here quite frequently, they'd get to know you, and they'd realize that it was easy to talk, and they'd come over and communicate. After a while you'd kind of get to be like a big family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your time that you spent was not just in the office. Did your days continue when you left, and were you getting the phone calls at different hours of--"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.559833189764202, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is true, yes. I took a lot of different courses in the Russian culture. That helped a lot, made it more easier to get along with some of them, look at things from their point of perspective instead of just ours, which is a little bit different. I'm trying to think of some good ways of putting it. It's just a continual learning experience. The more you get to know them, the more you are involved in things. You just learn by a process of trial and error."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Russians, I guess, too, after a while, learn that they could come to you and get information. Did you feel like your family of astronaut extended family just grew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To a certain extent. There's quite a few of them that would do that. A lot of the managers that were over here quite frequently, they'd get to know you, and they'd realize that it was easy to talk, and they'd come over and communicate. After a while you'd kind of get to be like a big family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your time that you spent was not just in the office. Did your days continue when you left, and were you getting the phone calls at different hours of--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were times we got them late at night or early in the morning. Sometimes faxes needed to be sent so that they would have them at the proper work time in Moscow, so there were a few times you were up here at midnight or one in the morning sending or receiving faxes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was from and to Americans as well as the Russians?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.622036877515779, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To a certain extent. There's quite a few of them that would do that. A lot of the managers that were over here quite frequently, they'd get to know you, and they'd realize that it was easy to talk, and they'd come over and communicate. After a while you'd kind of get to be like a big family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your time that you spent was not just in the office. Did your days continue when you left, and were you getting the phone calls at different hours of--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were times we got them late at night or early in the morning. Sometimes faxes needed to be sent so that they would have them at the proper work time in Moscow, so there were a few times you were up here at midnight or one in the morning sending or receiving faxes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was from and to Americans as well as the Russians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct, in Moscow and here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Frank's here, I'm sure that you're busy on a continuous communication effort with him, since he's right around the corner, but how was it with communication when he was over in Russia doing business over there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.802263197239753, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were times we got them late at night or early in the morning. Sometimes faxes needed to be sent so that they would have them at the proper work time in Moscow, so there were a few times you were up here at midnight or one in the morning sending or receiving faxes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was from and to Americans as well as the Russians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct, in Moscow and here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Frank's here, I'm sure that you're busy on a continuous communication effort with him, since he's right around the corner, but how was it with communication when he was over in Russia doing business over there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As continuous as it is over here pretty much. [Laughter] There's always telephones, cell phones, pagers. In every office you go to, they had phones. He has Moscow cell phones, so you could keep continuous communications no matter where in the world he's at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you have plenty of helpers if you needed to find him."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.891403552488615, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct, in Moscow and here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Frank's here, I'm sure that you're busy on a continuous communication effort with him, since he's right around the corner, but how was it with communication when he was over in Russia doing business over there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As continuous as it is over here pretty much. [Laughter] There's always telephones, cell phones, pagers. In every office you go to, they had phones. He has Moscow cell phones, so you could keep continuous communications no matter where in the world he's at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you have plenty of helpers if you needed to find him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had people in the MOST, people in the TsUP, people at Star City, so he was never out of touch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that was helpful for you. At least you knew if there was something that came up here, that--"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.879337280542906, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As continuous as it is over here pretty much. [Laughter] There's always telephones, cell phones, pagers. In every office you go to, they had phones. He has Moscow cell phones, so you could keep continuous communications no matter where in the world he's at."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you have plenty of helpers if you needed to find him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had people in the MOST, people in the TsUP, people at Star City, so he was never out of touch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that was helpful for you. At least you knew if there was something that came up here, that--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If there was something that came up here, we had instant ability to get hold of him, then if something over there he needed here, he could contact us either through our office, through our pagers, or at our homes. Everybody here kind of worked together as a family. It wasn't an eight-to-four job. If he needed something, nine, ten o'clock at night, he can call anybody, and they came in and got it done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That team effort, do you feel like that was one of the ingredients that made the program so successful?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.977041422825451, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had people in the MOST, people in the TsUP, people at Star City, so he was never out of touch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess that was helpful for you. At least you knew if there was something that came up here, that--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If there was something that came up here, we had instant ability to get hold of him, then if something over there he needed here, he could contact us either through our office, through our pagers, or at our homes. Everybody here kind of worked together as a family. It wasn't an eight-to-four job. If he needed something, nine, ten o'clock at night, he can call anybody, and they came in and got it done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That team effort, do you feel like that was one of the ingredients that made the program so successful?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's a big factor that made the program work so well, is everybody was willing to set aside personal things and work together to see that this got accomplished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you remember any incident during the program itself that you saw the team pull together that kind of sticks out in your mind?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.974490469806057, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If there was something that came up here, we had instant ability to get hold of him, then if something over there he needed here, he could contact us either through our office, through our pagers, or at our homes. Everybody here kind of worked together as a family. It wasn't an eight-to-four job. If he needed something, nine, ten o'clock at night, he can call anybody, and they came in and got it done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That team effort, do you feel like that was one of the ingredients that made the program so successful?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's a big factor that made the program work so well, is everybody was willing to set aside personal things and work together to see that this got accomplished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you remember any incident during the program itself that you saw the team pull together that kind of sticks out in your mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was the fire, there was the collision, and then there was a IG investigation where everybody worked together to see that Mr. Culbertson was adequately prepared to go before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a time that you felt that you would pick out as like the proudest moment of the program, or even something that you were able to do that you felt that you were glad you were here to make sure that this happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.860544966451172, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's a big factor that made the program work so well, is everybody was willing to set aside personal things and work together to see that this got accomplished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you remember any incident during the program itself that you saw the team pull together that kind of sticks out in your mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was the fire, there was the collision, and then there was a IG investigation where everybody worked together to see that Mr. Culbertson was adequately prepared to go before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a time that you felt that you would pick out as like the proudest moment of the program, or even something that you were able to do that you felt that you were glad you were here to make sure that this happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think STS-71, when we actually did the docking over at Mission Control, that was really fantastic, and then watching Shannon [Lucid] rotate with her knees in those little pink socks looking out the window when we were getting ready to retrieve her, was just fantastic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's maybe a story that you could share with us. What was it like being in Mission Control during STS-71? Were there lots of people there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.733938851612413, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was the fire, there was the collision, and then there was a IG investigation where everybody worked together to see that Mr. Culbertson was adequately prepared to go before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there ever a time that you felt that you would pick out as like the proudest moment of the program, or even something that you were able to do that you felt that you were glad you were here to make sure that this happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think STS-71, when we actually did the docking over at Mission Control, that was really fantastic, and then watching Shannon [Lucid] rotate with her knees in those little pink socks looking out the window when we were getting ready to retrieve her, was just fantastic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's maybe a story that you could share with us. What was it like being in Mission Control during STS-71? Were there lots of people there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The control room, yes. Mission Control had just an enormous amount of people. Everybody was there wanting to see us dock. It was a perfect docking, the Russians were there, everybody was just watching what was going on. It was a spectacular moment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you feel the--"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.70437650179157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think STS-71, when we actually did the docking over at Mission Control, that was really fantastic, and then watching Shannon [Lucid] rotate with her knees in those little pink socks looking out the window when we were getting ready to retrieve her, was just fantastic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's maybe a story that you could share with us. What was it like being in Mission Control during STS-71? Were there lots of people there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The control room, yes. Mission Control had just an enormous amount of people. Everybody was there wanting to see us dock. It was a perfect docking, the Russians were there, everybody was just watching what was going on. It was a spectacular moment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you feel the--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tension in the air? Yes. And celebration. When the hatch doors opened and they got together, everybody was just jumping and yelling. It was nice. It was really worth being there for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then Shannon, with her pink socks."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.78264055754619, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The control room, yes. Mission Control had just an enormous amount of people. Everybody was there wanting to see us dock. It was a perfect docking, the Russians were there, everybody was just watching what was going on. It was a spectacular moment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you feel the--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tension in the air? Yes. And celebration. When the hatch doors opened and they got together, everybody was just jumping and yelling. It was nice. It was really worth being there for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then Shannon, with her pink socks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter] Yes. She was rotating in front of the windows. You've probably seen that picture a million times where she's looking out the glass, but that was really great seeing her up there where she was coming home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were all the missions the same to you, or did they all seem different?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.980711730606878, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tension in the air? Yes. And celebration. When the hatch doors opened and they got together, everybody was just jumping and yelling. It was nice. It was really worth being there for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then Shannon, with her pink socks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter] Yes. She was rotating in front of the windows. You've probably seen that picture a million times where she's looking out the glass, but that was really great seeing her up there where she was coming home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were all the missions the same to you, or did they all seem different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were all different. They all have their high marks and everything else, and exciting. You get very familiar with the crews. They're very important to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to communicate with them at all while they were on board, the actual Mir residents from America?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.089679700674308, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughter] Yes. She was rotating in front of the windows. You've probably seen that picture a million times where she's looking out the glass, but that was really great seeing her up there where she was coming home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were all the missions the same to you, or did they all seem different?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were all different. They all have their high marks and everything else, and exciting. You get very familiar with the crews. They're very important to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to communicate with them at all while they were on board, the actual Mir residents from America?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Through a method that we call COS, where you put things on digital CDs, and they're sent up for special treats like at Christmas, Valentine's, or something. We did send up personalized messages to them. You could e-mail to them and get responses back and forth. Actual voice contact with them, management had that, some of the family members had it, but you needed to save that time for their families, not for the outside people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least you were able to visit with them on occasion."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.321866334082564, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were all different. They all have their high marks and everything else, and exciting. You get very familiar with the crews. They're very important to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to communicate with them at all while they were on board, the actual Mir residents from America?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Through a method that we call COS, where you put things on digital CDs, and they're sent up for special treats like at Christmas, Valentine's, or something. We did send up personalized messages to them. You could e-mail to them and get responses back and forth. Actual voice contact with them, management had that, some of the family members had it, but you needed to save that time for their families, not for the outside people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least you were able to visit with them on occasion."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they come through here, I'm sure they get a chance to give you at least a few more pieces of information that you were looking for."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.690962593425072, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Through a method that we call COS, where you put things on digital CDs, and they're sent up for special treats like at Christmas, Valentine's, or something. We did send up personalized messages to them. You could e-mail to them and get responses back and forth. Actual voice contact with them, management had that, some of the family members had it, but you needed to save that time for their families, not for the outside people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least you were able to visit with them on occasion."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they come through here, I'm sure they get a chance to give you at least a few more pieces of information that you were looking for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they do. We stop and visit, and we see quite a bit of each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you facilitate some of the areas that go on? We know that there were nine different working groups that were part of the Shuttle-Mir Program, and that meant more than nine chairs, since there were Russian counterparts. So how were you able to get all those people where they needed to be? Can you give us some of your secrets of how this all came about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.989958437138968, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they come through here, I'm sure they get a chance to give you at least a few more pieces of information that you were looking for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they do. We stop and visit, and we see quite a bit of each other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you facilitate some of the areas that go on? We know that there were nine different working groups that were part of the Shuttle-Mir Program, and that meant more than nine chairs, since there were Russian counterparts. So how were you able to get all those people where they needed to be? Can you give us some of your secrets of how this all came about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of that was handled by the program support specialists at the time, which was Susan Anderson and Lindy Fortenberry, eventually. I'm not quite sure. Once meeting times were set down in Florida, we just made all the hotel arrangements and room arrangements and conference room arrangements, and all the interpreter requirements down there. Since we picked them up from the airport and carried them around through TTI all the time, everybody was pretty much where they needed to be. There were occasionally instances where meetings got postponed or had to be rescheduled due to something else coming up, but for the main part, it just flowed as a normal workday office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's almost a little scary, isn't it? You put all that together and it's normal. [Gilmore laughs] What were some of the Russian perceptions of being in America? Did they share anything with you of what it was like to work here? Are there differences that they felt being here, even in Houston compared to even Kennedy, what they saw, or anything that you can think of, because I know that they talked to you more on a personal-type basis, where it was less formal, I guess, is what I'm looking for. Some of their perceptions that they might have had."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.016403891823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them thought of it, I think, as a really big shopping opportunity. [Laughter] The first groups that came over, we would take them out to the stores, they were just amazed at the variety in the stores that we had, without the lines and the wait, did quite a lot of shopping. They liked having their own personal time where they could travel and see and do things here. I think they really enjoyed it over here. Couldn't wait to go home and show off what all they had done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they here often in your office? Or did that become a routine after a while as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. The counterparts of the various teams came down here when we had just huge team meetings, so it wasn't that often, usually once or twice a year. Mr. Ryumin, of course, was down here training for the crew, so he was here quite a lot, and he got to be a routine in the office, and his wife Elena Kondakova, who's also a woman cosmonaut, so we got to be very friendly with them and their daughter, who went to school here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We had a Russian liaison office here as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have a Russian liaison office here where we have representatives from Russia, Energia, also from RSA, which is the Russian Space Agency that stays on site here, and we have a director of America, which is a counterpart to our director of Russian operations, and normally those are cosmonauts and then astronauts over in Russia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work closely with that group, too?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.01822654647, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. The counterparts of the various teams came down here when we had just huge team meetings, so it wasn't that often, usually once or twice a year. Mr. Ryumin, of course, was down here training for the crew, so he was here quite a lot, and he got to be a routine in the office, and his wife Elena Kondakova, who's also a woman cosmonaut, so we got to be very friendly with them and their daughter, who went to school here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We had a Russian liaison office here as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have a Russian liaison office here where we have representatives from Russia, Energia, also from RSA, which is the Russian Space Agency that stays on site here, and we have a director of America, which is a counterpart to our director of Russian operations, and normally those are cosmonauts and then astronauts over in Russia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work closely with that group, too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To some extent we had dealings with those. They worked a lot more with International Space Station and with the international partners. They were over here for weekly meetings. They did have tag-ups with the crews on the Mir. There was quite a bit with them. I didn't have a lot of just day-to-day work with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you've lived this program over the last four years, almost as one long continuous day, you witnessed almost everything that happened. Can you share with us some of the benefits or some of the value that you see has come from working with these international partners and the success of the program as a whole?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.020251718299999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have a Russian liaison office here where we have representatives from Russia, Energia, also from RSA, which is the Russian Space Agency that stays on site here, and we have a director of America, which is a counterpart to our director of Russian operations, and normally those are cosmonauts and then astronauts over in Russia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you work closely with that group, too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To some extent we had dealings with those. They worked a lot more with International Space Station and with the international partners. They were over here for weekly meetings. They did have tag-ups with the crews on the Mir. There was quite a bit with them. I didn't have a lot of just day-to-day work with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you've lived this program over the last four years, almost as one long continuous day, you witnessed almost everything that happened. Can you share with us some of the benefits or some of the value that you see has come from working with these international partners and the success of the program as a whole?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's going to help put everybody into a cohesive group for the International Space Station. We're learning that there are various cultures out there, various ways of doing business, not necessarily just one way. We're going to have to have that for the International Space Station. No one nation can do it by themselves. I've heard it said by the other astronauts, when you look back at this planet from space, there are no fences; it's all one big globe. We're going to have to work together. I think in the long run is going to be great for our children and our grandchildren."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've worked in the space program for fifteen years. Do you see over the last year more changes than you ever saw before, or was this kind of running on a routine basis of changes?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.44167, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To some extent it did. We saw to it that special packages got sent over to Russia to go up on the Progresses for the resupply vehicles, so they could get little special treats for holidays or birthdays, information packets with cards, letters from their families. Sometimes we arranged for communication passes where they could go out to our “ham shack” out back and speak with their mothers, dads, whoever happened to be up there at that time. Occasionally we helped out with things like getting the voting in space, so they could vote from on orbit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about that. Tell us who the astronaut was who got to vote."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were originally doing it, I believe, for Dave Wolf and John Blaha. I'm not sure if either one of them actually voted from space. Wolf may have, but that's what got the President started and got a bill passed. So now we do have that bill, so on the International Space Station that will be handled in that manner. Susan Anderson was the project manager for that, and she could go into much greater detail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The families or the team members that were over in Russia, they were there for extended periods of time. Were you able to help them work out what they needed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We saw to it that their supplies got over there, some people for their furnishings and luggage and stuff, to get [unclear] over there, their visas and passports to make sure they could go, and occasionally when they took their families with them, we had to see to it, or we helped out with the process of doing those, since that was extended family, we saw to it that they got everything, all the paperwork done, so that they wouldn't have any difficulties in getting there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your life was never the same from one day to the next, and I'm sure you were never bored, but are you glad that you were here the last four years?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.0463000000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were originally doing it, I believe, for Dave Wolf and John Blaha. I'm not sure if either one of them actually voted from space. Wolf may have, but that's what got the President started and got a bill passed. So now we do have that bill, so on the International Space Station that will be handled in that manner. Susan Anderson was the project manager for that, and she could go into much greater detail."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The families or the team members that were over in Russia, they were there for extended periods of time. Were you able to help them work out what they needed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We saw to it that their supplies got over there, some people for their furnishings and luggage and stuff, to get [unclear] over there, their visas and passports to make sure they could go, and occasionally when they took their families with them, we had to see to it, or we helped out with the process of doing those, since that was extended family, we saw to it that they got everything, all the paperwork done, so that they wouldn't have any difficulties in getting there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your life was never the same from one day to the next, and I'm sure you were never bored, but are you glad that you were here the last four years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very much so. Very much. It's going to be one of the proud moments of my life as I look back on it, some day when I'm in that rocking chair. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No time soon, though, I hope."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.607, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We saw to it that their supplies got over there, some people for their furnishings and luggage and stuff, to get [unclear] over there, their visas and passports to make sure they could go, and occasionally when they took their families with them, we had to see to it, or we helped out with the process of doing those, since that was extended family, we saw to it that they got everything, all the paperwork done, so that they wouldn't have any difficulties in getting there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your life was never the same from one day to the next, and I'm sure you were never bored, but are you glad that you were here the last four years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very much so. Very much. It's going to be one of the proud moments of my life as I look back on it, some day when I'm in that rocking chair. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No time soon, though, I hope."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No time soon. We've got a few more projects ahead. I'd love to see us get to Mars."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that what you're hoping to be a participant in at some point, somehow?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.23, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very much so. Very much. It's going to be one of the proud moments of my life as I look back on it, some day when I'm in that rocking chair. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No time soon, though, I hope."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No time soon. We've got a few more projects ahead. I'd love to see us get to Mars."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that what you're hoping to be a participant in at some point, somehow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it would be nice. I think that's going to be long after I retire, but I would love to live to see us get there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first mission that you ever worked on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.7, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No time soon. We've got a few more projects ahead. I'd love to see us get to Mars."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that what you're hoping to be a participant in at some point, somehow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it would be nice. I think that's going to be long after I retire, but I would love to live to see us get there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first mission that you ever worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was with [Major General] Joe Henry Engle, 51-I back in '85."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that you still support him in a way, because he's involved in the Shuttle-Mir Program as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it would be nice. I think that's going to be long after I retire, but I would love to live to see us get there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the first mission that you ever worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was with [Major General] Joe Henry Engle, 51-I back in '85."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that you still support him in a way, because he's involved in the Shuttle-Mir Program as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. He's on the Stafford Task Force, and he does a lot of work there, so he's in and out of the office quite frequently. So I still have a lot of contact with him, and General Stafford, who was also a former astronaut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where do you plan to be in the future? Do you know what your plans are as part of the International Space Station as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00770:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was with [Major General] Joe Henry Engle, 51-I back in '85."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand that you still support him in a way, because he's involved in the Shuttle-Mir Program as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. He's on the Stafford Task Force, and he does a lot of work there, so he's in and out of the office quite frequently. So I still have a lot of contact with him, and General Stafford, who was also a former astronaut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where do you plan to be in the future? Do you know what your plans are as part of the International Space Station as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right now I'll go into it as the same duties I had under the Shuttle-Mir Program as Frank Culbertson's secretary and assistant. I hope to work into the family support plan on that, that's down the road a little ways, but it's being set up and worked because they will need special support for the long-duration crew members and their families. Normally on a Shuttle mission, you're up from anywhere from one week to two weeks, and you see to it that their families are taken down to the Cape and escorted around, and brought back into mission control. For people that are going to be on orbit four to six months, they're going to need a lot more extenuating circumstances. They may need help for things going on at home, seeing to it communications are set up and established, and just all kind of things can be visualized for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think, if nothing else, that we can assume is that your expertise in communications is well known throughout the center and well appreciated.\\n\\n Do you have anything you'd like to add? We're just going to make a note that Ms. Gilmore has been extremely helpful in this project for the last six months. As we have come in and out of her office, she has pushed us in the right direction and given us direction on who we needed to speak to, so we were glad that she found time to visit with us, and certainly offer anything. It's the time now for you to say anything you'd like to about the Shuttle-Mir Program as a whole."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00384:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.51, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've got to do kids here in a little while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd like to come back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that okay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would work fine."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00384:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd like to come back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that okay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would work fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because then I moved into the Shuttle Program manager job, and, by the way, I brought all those guys over with me at that time. We made it all—probably not immediately, but soon thereafter, so we made it all in one office. But there were a lot of guys who did great work in those days, and it was such a small community dealing mostly with outside people who were in some cases negative towards us, that they probably didn't get the recognition or the reward for it that they should have gotten. But I think they know what they did. They know what they did. It was quite a story. It was quite a time, quite a time. It was sort of big bureaucracy's grinding along tectonic plates and we just happened to be at the plate where we kept getting ground on. [Laughter] But all in all, the people handled it pretty well and did a good job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Accomplished what you were setting out to."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00384:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that okay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would work fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because then I moved into the Shuttle Program manager job, and, by the way, I brought all those guys over with me at that time. We made it all—probably not immediately, but soon thereafter, so we made it all in one office. But there were a lot of guys who did great work in those days, and it was such a small community dealing mostly with outside people who were in some cases negative towards us, that they probably didn't get the recognition or the reward for it that they should have gotten. But I think they know what they did. They know what they did. It was quite a story. It was quite a time, quite a time. It was sort of big bureaucracy's grinding along tectonic plates and we just happened to be at the plate where we kept getting ground on. [Laughter] But all in all, the people handled it pretty well and did a good job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Accomplished what you were setting out to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, did a good job. And we didn't know at the beginning, we didn't really know what the dimensions of this thing we were getting into called payload integration really was, but we sure learned. Took us a while, but we learned and turned it into something that was workable. If you go over and talk to people today, they'll still talk about the same things. It's amusing to me when I hear them talking, because I listen to it now and then, or I hear it now and then, and it's like these things were written in stone by the ancients, you know, passed into the shrouded mystery of time, and they don't even know where they came from. But they all talk about these events, the CIR and the IHSR and the FOR and all this stuff. They do, they talk about it like it's chiseled in stone and came down somehow from some alien civilization that gave it to us. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess it has a longstanding impact, then."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00181:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.75771627758915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did. There were some areas set up as representative of the type of terrain that it would need to be able to traverse. Again, I don’t recall any real problems or difficulties. Very early in the design it had already been decided that the vehicle would have a double Ackerman steering mechanism, which means like on your car, the front wheels steer. On the rover, the rear wheels steer as well, and a very clever redundant system was made whereby if either the front or the rear failed, you were able to line them up and pin them or lock them, and disengage that drive and then use the other, either the front or the back alone. You didn’t have as tight a turning radius, but you could still maneuver and still use the vehicle.\\n\\n The rover is a very ingenious vehicle, really, in that respect of redundancy, because it not only had two separate and independent steering mechanisms where, as I mentioned, using them together, you had much more maneuverability, but you could still get around on the surface of the Moon with either the fore or the aft mechanism.\\n\\n Then the drive mechanism for the wheels were four independent electric batteries, so you could lose, in fact, up to three of them and you could limp back to the lunar vehicle with one wheel going on the rover."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Amazing. It must have been quite something to watch it come together a piece at a time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was very interesting to see it develop. The interesting thing is that once the initial concept design was laid out and a mockup was made out of plywood, it didn’t really change very much from that initial concept. It was kept very simple, kind of like the jeep during World War II. Its initial concept was very similar to what we ended up at the end of the war with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very durable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very durable, very maneuverable, very flexible, very usable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve told us about working with the rocket flyer. Were there any other concepts that you were involved with regarding suggestions for using—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00181:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 26.39746253065461, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was very interesting to see it develop. The interesting thing is that once the initial concept design was laid out and a mockup was made out of plywood, it didn’t really change very much from that initial concept. It was kept very simple, kind of like the jeep during World War II. Its initial concept was very similar to what we ended up at the end of the war with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very durable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, very durable, very maneuverable, very flexible, very usable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve told us about working with the rocket flyer. Were there any other concepts that you were involved with regarding suggestions for using—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Those were the only two that seemed to still have survived by the time that I was assigned to help with that development. I know I remember hearing of a two-wheeled vehicle, kind of like a motorcycle, but I think that was dropped very early, realizing that in the suit, in the inflated suit, that type of vehicle really wasn’t the most desirable to use.\\n\\n As a matter of fact, the rocket belt was dropped fairly early because of the concern of kicking up dust and losing your landing site and disturbing the geology and where you were going to go check out an area, by the exhaust of that rocket site. Not only displacing material that you might want to take off the very top surface, the dust-type thing, but also the remnants of the rocket fuel itself becoming interspersed with the dust and you wouldn’t know what was there before and what you brought with you. Contaminating is what I’m trying to say. Contaminating the surface, the soil where you were landing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Donald K.] Deke Slayton assigned you to be part of the support crew for Apollo 10, which was going to be the dress rehearsal of sorts for the lunar landing. Can you share your experiences and the training involved that was necessary for this position and some of the duties that you did?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00181:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.91000416130852, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. We sure did. It really was almost a direct development of the prime crew patch, the Apollo 14 crew patch. We had, as I mentioned, told them we were right behind them and we were going to beat them to the launch pad if they didn’t keep a quick pace up. I don’t remember where it started, but we acquired the nickname “the roadrunner,” so our crew patch, that I think Gene was most instrumental in designing, in place of the astronaut symbol, leaving the Earth and on its way to lunar trajectory, we replaced that with Wiley Coyote with a long beard, because we were merciless in kidding Al about how old he was and how he was really too old to go anyway. Then on the lunar surface, which was on the prime crew patch, the roadrunner was sitting there waiting for Al Shepard to get there with his crew, with a “Beep Beep” on the patch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Our research shows that at one point you and Gene Cernan bet Alan Shepard and Ed Mitchell a case of scotch if they couldn’t make it to the top of the Cone Crater if they dragged the MET [Mobile Equipment Transporter] up there with them. Can you tell us how that bet came about and why you posed that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they made it. They did it okay, and we knew they would, but that was a good-natured bet to—I mean, we wanted to do that anyway. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you send up some of your patches to find during the mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were able to stow a number of patches, as a matter of fact, in the packet, in with their clothes and food so that as they opened up different things during the mission, why, every once in a while they would be treated to one of our crew patches. And we would hear about it in very carefully worded transmissions from Al and Ed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have made friends along the way of all the people that helped get these mission patches up on the equipment."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00181:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 27.67778240145391, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they made it. They did it okay, and we knew they would, but that was a good-natured bet to—I mean, we wanted to do that anyway. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you send up some of your patches to find during the mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were able to stow a number of patches, as a matter of fact, in the packet, in with their clothes and food so that as they opened up different things during the mission, why, every once in a while they would be treated to one of our crew patches. And we would hear about it in very carefully worded transmissions from Al and Ed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have made friends along the way of all the people that helped get these mission patches up on the equipment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was fun. A lot of people really enjoyed it. It was a great motivation and incentive. Everybody was very professional, but we had fun on that mission. We sure did. And the nice thing was that Al and Ed and Stu brought all the patches back. I think they kept some for themselves, but they gave the patches back to us after the mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Cernan’s book, he mentions that just a month before the launch of Apollo 14, there were some discussions about possibly moving you to be the LM [Lunar Module] pilot for Apollo 14. Were you aware at the time that they may be moving you into that slot?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00181:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.424941565780397, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was. As soon as the decision was made from a budgetary standpoint to cancel Apollo 18, 19, and 20, soon after that—I won’t say as soon as, but soon after that, then the discussion surfaced that the scientific community was very avid and pushing very hard to get [Harrison H.] Jack Schmitt on the surface of the Moon, because Jack had a doctorate degree in field geology and, of course, that’s what the lunar missions were all about. So it was a perfectly legitimate rationale to consider and to see if it were able to get Jack ready to go on the last mission, Apollo 17, rather than on Apollo 18, which he would have been scheduled for. Jack was backup for Apollo 15.\\n\\n So, yes, there was no secret about it. It was being discussed openly. I think that both Gene and Deke, their first choice would have been to leave the crew intact, but I think that there was a great deal of pressure on them, and understandably so. So I was told that the decision had been made and that Jack was going to replace me on Apollo 17."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that information given to you by Deke Slayton?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I think it was Al Shepard that called me into the office. Al was the head of the Astronaut Office at the time. I think it was Al, after he had returned, told me that that was what would happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your options for assignments after this decision? As you mentioned, the final Apollo missions had been cancelled, so what were going to be your options?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. I think the next program already being talked about was Skylab. I can’t remember the sequence or how quickly the missions downstream began to be formulated, but Apollo-Soyuz was also another mission coming up, and the Space Shuttle was in its very early preliminary design phases. It was a program that was going to be not too far down the road, we hoped."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to select where you wanted to move into?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00181:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.916601739755997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I think it was Al Shepard that called me into the office. Al was the head of the Astronaut Office at the time. I think it was Al, after he had returned, told me that that was what would happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your options for assignments after this decision? As you mentioned, the final Apollo missions had been cancelled, so what were going to be your options?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. I think the next program already being talked about was Skylab. I can’t remember the sequence or how quickly the missions downstream began to be formulated, but Apollo-Soyuz was also another mission coming up, and the Space Shuttle was in its very early preliminary design phases. It was a program that was going to be not too far down the road, we hoped."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to select where you wanted to move into?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn’t say I was able to select, but Deke was very, very good about it and asked me, in a one-to-one conversation, not promising that I would be assigned to a Skylab or not promising I would be assigned to the Apollo-Soyuz mission, but implying that if I were interested in that, he would sure consider that very heavily. Then he also indicated that the Space Shuttle looked like it was going to be funded and looked like it was going to be a real program.\\n\\n So at the time, I think I responded something to the effect that it had a stick and rudder and wings and was an airplane, and was kind of more the kind of vehicle that I felt I could contribute more to. And Deke concurred with that. He said, “That was my opinion, but if you want to fly sooner than that, I was ready to help out.” I think Deke was happy that I had indicated I would just as soon wait for the Space Shuttle and be part of that program, the early testing on that program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have the option of returning back to the Air Force to get another assignment from them?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00181:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 34.696291290577875, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in Mission Control when they successfully landed and returned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was. Yes. It was a pretty happy day, happy location, happy site, when that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us how you began working with the Shuttle development, at what point. We know that you were involved with the approach and landing tests, but did you work with the Shuttle in its development in some of the testing stages before you moved into that phase?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, in fact, I even was working during the selection, the down-select of manufacturers in the conceptual design of the Shuttle. I do remember Rockwell and McDonnell Douglas [Corporation] and Grumman were three of the primary competitors initially and had different design concepts for the Shuttle, all pretty much the same, but they were significantly different in shape and in configuration for launch, using different types of boosters and things.\\n\\n I was part of that selection process only as an engineer and a pilot, and assessing a very small part of the data that went into the final selection. But it was interesting. It was very, very interesting, and it, fortunately, allowed me to pull on some of the experience that I had gotten at Edwards in flight testing, in trying to assess what might be the most reasonable approach to either flying initial flights, data-gathering, and things of that nature."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In [19]’72, [NASA] Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California] started testing and verifying the computer hardware and software, and then following a few years later with the parachute recovery system and the tile testing. Were you involved in any of those aspects during those time periods?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00301:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.905515000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it. Some of the astronauts were just big about themselves; they just were who they would have been before they were selected. Other people got in trouble, and they would begin to, say, maybe get full of themselves, let’s say it that way. “Oh, I’m an astronaut, I know all this.”\\n\\n I said, “Here, you’re not showing me anything so far.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’re going to be asking you if they’re ready to go, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was just that important thing, and it was also teaching the instructors. I said, “Your job is to keep them alive; make sure their wife is not a widow, okay?” In that case, we’d say it that way because that was all there was, only men. But you’ve got to keep them alive, which means if they’re screwing up, you got to call it on it. That’s why when we got into Shuttle, later, I instituted a thing where the same crew had the same instructors all the time. That way, they got way past that, “Oh, this is John Young, and I’m [only] a GS-9 and I can’t tell him what to do.”\\n\\n I said, “You’re going to have a beer with him after work and you’re going to do all kinds of stuff, and when he screws up, you’ve seen him, so you’ll be able to talk to it.” It worked out well. I would still fly that way, some instructors are prime on each crew, would have a set of dedicated instructors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s interesting to listen how you created your own playbook in order to instruct your instructors on how to coach."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was important to do that. It’s kind of what happened—I didn’t like the way we trained Apollo, so after Skylab, when I got thrown out of flight control, that’s a whole other story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll get to that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00301:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 17, "return_to_go": 33.228350000000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was just that important thing, and it was also teaching the instructors. I said, “Your job is to keep them alive; make sure their wife is not a widow, okay?” In that case, we’d say it that way because that was all there was, only men. But you’ve got to keep them alive, which means if they’re screwing up, you got to call it on it. That’s why when we got into Shuttle, later, I instituted a thing where the same crew had the same instructors all the time. That way, they got way past that, “Oh, this is John Young, and I’m [only] a GS-9 and I can’t tell him what to do.”\\n\\n I said, “You’re going to have a beer with him after work and you’re going to do all kinds of stuff, and when he screws up, you’ve seen him, so you’ll be able to talk to it.” It worked out well. I would still fly that way, some instructors are prime on each crew, would have a set of dedicated instructors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s interesting to listen how you created your own playbook in order to instruct your instructors on how to coach."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was important to do that. It’s kind of what happened—I didn’t like the way we trained Apollo, so after Skylab, when I got thrown out of flight control, that’s a whole other story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll get to that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, come back to that the next time. I would set out to create a very professional team of people who would be able to do, whether I was there or not, they were going to get it done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the Lunar Rover make any difference on how you trained your astronauts?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00301:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 23.5, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly, exactly. “No, no,” it’s like, “Okay, just another gator.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just another day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We used to have a sign in that building—because the way the floor is raised 3 feet above the cement and there’s all the cables running, when you had to feel a cable sometimes, follow it—it says, “If the cable moves, let go.” They would get in sometimes, and all of a sudden, a big, python-looking bullsnake, or sometimes even a rattlesnake, but they’ll let you know if you’re in close, but it was generally not a dangerous one, but you don’t want to find out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don’t even want to think about the pranks that might have been played with snakes and gators."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Horrible, horrible. We’re right around the time—you want to stop, or you want to go on and finish and talk about the rest of Apollo?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.6801940404061404, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Born in Oakland, California, and grew up there until high school time and then moved to Piedmont, which is right next to Oakland."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And did you have brothers and sisters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have one sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Older, younger?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Younger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so it was just a family of mother, father, two kids."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9779933782290446, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have one sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Older, younger?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Younger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so it was just a family of mother, father, two kids."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. You go, you went to school in Oakland?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.3088815313656053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Younger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so it was just a family of mother, father, two kids."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. You go, you went to school in Oakland?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to school in Oakland. And then in Piedmont for high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Public schools?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6765350348506725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. You go, you went to school in Oakland?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to school in Oakland. And then in Piedmont for high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Public schools?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And what did your parents do for a living?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.085038927611858, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to school in Oakland. And then in Piedmont for high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Public schools?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And what did your parents do for a living?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My dad was a engineer, and my mom didn't have an official job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, she did. She took care of the family."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.538932141790953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And what did your parents do for a living?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My dad was a engineer, and my mom didn't have an official job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, she did. She took care of the family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Took care of the family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Good. So did you take, with your family, did you take vacations together?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.8210357131010597, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My dad was a engineer, and my mom didn't have an official job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, she did. She took care of the family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Took care of the family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Good. So did you take, with your family, did you take vacations together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. We went to places like Lake Tahoe. And, um, hmm. Let me see. I don't know if we actually went to Yosemite. Yeah, we went to Yosemite also. That sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the family car?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.134484125667844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Took care of the family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Good. So did you take, with your family, did you take vacations together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. We went to places like Lake Tahoe. And, um, hmm. Let me see. I don't know if we actually went to Yosemite. Yeah, we went to Yosemite also. That sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the family car?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Sounds very good. So you go to high school in Piedmont. And what kind of high school kid were you? What did you, what were you interested in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.8697334884788197, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Sounds very good. So you go to high school in Piedmont. And what kind of high school kid were you? What did you, what were you interested in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, um, I didn't really have strong interests. I think the most interesting class for me was one in mechanical drafting. Um. And I have a recollection of taking driver's ed there and having some challenges with that in high school. But anyway, um, so I was kind of quiet, pretty quiet. I didn't really get involved in, in school activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sports?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you study a foreign language in high school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.542880849973851, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you study a foreign language in high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think we had to. I think I studied Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the only language in your home was English, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9365342777487236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think we had to. I think I studied Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the only language in your home was English, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "English, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you studied Spanish?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.373926975276359, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the only language in your home was English, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "English, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you studied Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It doesn't sound like it was memorable."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.859918861418176, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "English, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you studied Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It doesn't sound like it was memorable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I never used it much so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you. So did you have part time jobs when you were in high school? Summer jobs?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.399909846020196, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It doesn't sound like it was memorable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I never used it much so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you. So did you have part time jobs when you were in high school? Summer jobs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I did. I got to remember, um, the timeline for that. I don't know if I actually had one in high school. When I was in college I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What'd you do in college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.999899828911329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I never used it much so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you. So did you have part time jobs when you were in high school? Summer jobs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I did. I got to remember, um, the timeline for that. I don't know if I actually had one in high school. When I was in college I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What'd you do in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean for summer jobs, you mean?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.44433314323481, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I did. I got to remember, um, the timeline for that. I don't know if I actually had one in high school. When I was in college I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What'd you do in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean for summer jobs, you mean?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had, for a couple of summers I worked on the BART system, you know, the rapid transit system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah, sure."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.9381479369275665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean for summer jobs, you mean?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had, for a couple of summers I worked on the BART system, you know, the rapid transit system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah, sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were building that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. And what kind of work was that, construction?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.763145601145143, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were building that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. And what kind of work was that, construction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely construction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was just a, you know, an assistant to an engineer and whatever things he asked me to do, I did. Um, had a job with PG&E, a summer job, and another one with Bechtel. They're both, you know, PG&E, you know who that is? That's the, or maybe you don't. Our electrical utility company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The P would be Pacific maybe?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.17672296437672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was just a, you know, an assistant to an engineer and whatever things he asked me to do, I did. Um, had a job with PG&E, a summer job, and another one with Bechtel. They're both, you know, PG&E, you know who that is? That's the, or maybe you don't. Our electrical utility company."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. The P would be Pacific maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pacific Gas and Electric."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Wisconsin we have MG&E, which is Madison."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.418581071529689, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pacific Gas and Electric."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Wisconsin we have MG&E, which is Madison."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So yeah, that's pretty much it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so what about in college? What did you major in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.6873123016996545, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Wisconsin we have MG&E, which is Madison."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So yeah, that's pretty much it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so what about in college? What did you major in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Majors in engineering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what school was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.3145573411517892, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "University of California at Berkeley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At Berkeley."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So that was electrical engineering. And I got a bachelor's degree in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Electrical engineering?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Electrical engineering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And then at some point, you got an interest in joining the Peace Corps. Was that right after college or was there an interim thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.4606192679464325, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So that was electrical engineering. And I got a bachelor's degree in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Electrical engineering?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Electrical engineering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And then at some point, you got an interest in joining the Peace Corps. Was that right after college or was there an interim thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's interesting because I had this desire to ride a bicycle across country. And I, when I graduated from college, I did that. So that took a couple of months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you bicycled from California to?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5117991866071473, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Electrical engineering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And then at some point, you got an interest in joining the Peace Corps. Was that right after college or was there an interim thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's interesting because I had this desire to ride a bicycle across country. And I, when I graduated from college, I did that. So that took a couple of months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you bicycled from California to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually from New York to California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other way around. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5686657628968304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's interesting because I had this desire to ride a bicycle across country. And I, when I graduated from college, I did that. So that took a couple of months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you bicycled from California to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually from New York to California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The other way around. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By yourself or did you have a buddy?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7800627748927713, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I found the person through a want ad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That also wanted to do that. Yeah, I didn't. I know. To do that alone is very difficult."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it's just not very easy to watch everything and take care of everything. Just one person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it's much more fun with a buddy too."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9630404628305818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, it's just not very easy to watch everything and take care of everything. Just one person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it's much more fun with a buddy too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So joining the Peace Corps. Well, um, after the bicycle ride, I had another job with Bechtel as like a junior engineer. And I just realized that it wasn't really something I felt like doing as a lifetime sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the Peace Corps, for me, was a chance to, um, look at something different, you know, see the world. I thought maybe I would like teaching and it would give me the chance to do that. So those sort of things pushed me to join the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you applied. Did you send in your application after the bike ride or even before?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.0700449587006464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So joining the Peace Corps. Well, um, after the bicycle ride, I had another job with Bechtel as like a junior engineer. And I just realized that it wasn't really something I felt like doing as a lifetime sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the Peace Corps, for me, was a chance to, um, look at something different, you know, see the world. I thought maybe I would like teaching and it would give me the chance to do that. So those sort of things pushed me to join the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you applied. Did you send in your application after the bike ride or even before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Afterwards. It was after that and after I had started working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you sent in your application. Did you tell your folks that you were doing this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1889388430007182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the Peace Corps, for me, was a chance to, um, look at something different, you know, see the world. I thought maybe I would like teaching and it would give me the chance to do that. So those sort of things pushed me to join the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you applied. Did you send in your application after the bike ride or even before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Afterwards. It was after that and after I had started working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you sent in your application. Did you tell your folks that you were doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I think I did, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they pretty supportive of the idea?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3210431588896867, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Afterwards. It was after that and after I had started working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you sent in your application. Did you tell your folks that you were doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I think I did, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they pretty supportive of the idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, you know, they already knew from the bike ride that I kind of had this independent way of doing stuff. So I guess they kind of figured that I was going to do it no matter what. But, you know, their, their, their hope was, I think, because, you know, my dad's an engineer and parents want their kids to have a stable kind of not dangerous life. So, um, yeah, they didn't like it so much. But when I, when I did go, they were, you know, we're always connected by letters. You know, there's, we didn't have the ways of communicating that we have now"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. That's right. Blue aero letters, is that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.467825732099652, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I think I did, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they pretty supportive of the idea?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, you know, they already knew from the bike ride that I kind of had this independent way of doing stuff. So I guess they kind of figured that I was going to do it no matter what. But, you know, their, their, their hope was, I think, because, you know, my dad's an engineer and parents want their kids to have a stable kind of not dangerous life. So, um, yeah, they didn't like it so much. But when I, when I did go, they were, you know, we're always connected by letters. You know, there's, we didn't have the ways of communicating that we have now"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. That's right. Blue aero letters, is that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. So you get, you send in your application and then you had to wait for a while. Did the app, do you remember if the application asked you if there was any part of the world where you would not want to be assigned? Or if you had a preference for a particular place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8121305334563602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's exactly right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. So you get, you send in your application and then you had to wait for a while. Did the app, do you remember if the application asked you if there was any part of the world where you would not want to be assigned? Or if you had a preference for a particular place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. I think it was more like they wanted to assign me to a technical teaching sort of thing. And maybe it was like, here's the choices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe there were several countries that they said it was possible. And I don't remember really if I said, what I said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that's all right. And then eventually you get a letter. Did it come, did the news come to you via letter that you'd been accepted to train for a particular place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.013478370507067, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. I think it was more like they wanted to assign me to a technical teaching sort of thing. And maybe it was like, here's the choices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe there were several countries that they said it was possible. And I don't remember really if I said, what I said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that's all right. And then eventually you get a letter. Did it come, did the news come to you via letter that you'd been accepted to train for a particular place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. I suppose it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And, um, then you had to say goodbye to your family."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2371981894522963, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe there were several countries that they said it was possible. And I don't remember really if I said, what I said."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, that's all right. And then eventually you get a letter. Did it come, did the news come to you via letter that you'd been accepted to train for a particular place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. I suppose it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And, um, then you had to say goodbye to your family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to your, I can't remember, was it a sister?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.485775766058107, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. I suppose it did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And, um, then you had to say goodbye to your family."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to your, I can't remember, was it a sister?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a big party?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.7619730733978964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And to your, I can't remember, was it a sister?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a big party?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think we did. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn't either. And then, um, off you went. And so was the training here in the United States or was it in-country in Iran?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.8466367482198849, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sister."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a big party?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think we did. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn't either. And then, um, off you went. And so was the training here in the United States or was it in-country in Iran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the way this worked is that we, our group to Iran, gathered in I think it was Philadelphia, and there was like a four day sort of orientation thing and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. Shots? Did you have to line up and get immunizations?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9407074980220943, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think we did. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn't either. And then, um, off you went. And so was the training here in the United States or was it in-country in Iran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the way this worked is that we, our group to Iran, gathered in I think it was Philadelphia, and there was like a four day sort of orientation thing and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. Shots? Did you have to line up and get immunizations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. Probably had to get some done before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. And the orientation would have been nuts and bolts about Iran or something?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.0452305533578825, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the way this worked is that we, our group to Iran, gathered in I think it was Philadelphia, and there was like a four day sort of orientation thing and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. Shots? Did you have to line up and get immunizations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. Probably had to get some done before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Yeah. And the orientation would have been nuts and bolts about Iran or something?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's hard to remember, right. What do you, what do you remember? What? How many people were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.290408090565287, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's hard to remember, right. What do you, what do you remember? What? How many people were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know our group had about 150."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, huge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, um, I guess one of the main points was they wanted to sort out, you know, who was really qualified and, you know, like able to go to Iran and manage there, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were able to figure that out in four days?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4337867672947633, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know our group had about 150."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, huge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, um, I guess one of the main points was they wanted to sort out, you know, who was really qualified and, you know, like able to go to Iran and manage there, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were able to figure that out in four days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I guess they figured some of it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there some people who didn't get past Philadelphia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5930964081052925, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, um, I guess one of the main points was they wanted to sort out, you know, who was really qualified and, you know, like able to go to Iran and manage there, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were able to figure that out in four days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I guess they figured some of it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there some people who didn't get past Philadelphia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know for a fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And this group of people, were they, um, they're all going to be teachers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7701071201169916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I guess they figured some of it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there some people who didn't get past Philadelphia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know for a fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And this group of people, were they, um, they're all going to be teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they were going to be either English teachers or vocational type teachers like me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mixture of men and women?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.1853174322431994, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they were going to be either English teachers or vocational type teachers like me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mixture of men and women?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And there were some married couples also. Just, just a few, two or three, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you all get on a plane in Philadelphia or New York, you flew out of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.4281304802702213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And there were some married couples also. Just, just a few, two or three, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you all get on a plane in Philadelphia or New York, you flew out of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess it was Philadelphia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And did the plane take you directly to Iran, or were there some stops along the way?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.99769195095089, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess it was Philadelphia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And did the plane take you directly to Iran, or were there some stops along the way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, basically, it was like that plane was our plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You filled it? Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.330768834389878, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, basically, it was like that plane was our plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You filled it? Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been abroad before? Had you been in Europe?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.877492388135652, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been abroad before? Had you been in Europe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. The most I've been out of the country was Canada. You know, very limited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So now you're crossing the ocean. That's a long, long flight."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1972137645951686, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. The most I've been out of the country was Canada. You know, very limited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So now you're crossing the ocean. That's a long, long flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And eventually you land in Tehran, I assume?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.552459738439076, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So now you're crossing the ocean. That's a long, long flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And eventually you land in Tehran, I assume?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember your first impressions when you stepped off the plane?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.8055058499247854, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember your first impressions when you stepped off the plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Uh. We were just there for maybe one day or something like that. And then we all went to Rezaiyeh, which is on the west side of the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the government had given us a, I think it was like an elementary school that was for our training people to live there and have our instruction there. And that lasted all summer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went over at the beginning of summer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.994451666573809, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the government had given us a, I think it was like an elementary school that was for our training people to live there and have our instruction there. And that lasted all summer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went over at the beginning of summer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "June, maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And what's summer like in Iran? What, is it hot? I've never been there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1049462961931211, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "June, maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And what's summer like in Iran? What, is it hot? I've never been there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty hot. It wasn't extremely hot. I don't know what to compare it to, though, but it wasn't outlandish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in Rezaiyeh at this elementary school, what sort of accommodations do they provide for you during training? Were you living with a family or were you in a dorm?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3641312298680508, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty hot. It wasn't extremely hot. I don't know what to compare it to, though, but it wasn't outlandish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in Rezaiyeh at this elementary school, what sort of accommodations do they provide for you during training? Were you living with a family or were you in a dorm?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we were in a dorm, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you'd be paired up with another guy or a couple of guys?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6841126294667295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you'd be paired up with another guy or a couple of guys?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was like a big room full of guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you'd eat dorm food?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8712362549630326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was like a big room full of guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you'd eat dorm food?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever they cooked for us. What did we have? You know, like the big round loaves of bread for breakfast and honey and cheese, I think. And, gosh, I think for dinner they, like, pushed us out the door. You know, they wanted us to go and see things. So I think we got dinner on our own. I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they must have provided you with a little pocket money."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0791513944033695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you'd eat dorm food?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever they cooked for us. What did we have? You know, like the big round loaves of bread for breakfast and honey and cheese, I think. And, gosh, I think for dinner they, like, pushed us out the door. You know, they wanted us to go and see things. So I think we got dinner on our own. I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they must have provided you with a little pocket money."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So in training, what was training all about? What did you learn in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.310168216003744, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever they cooked for us. What did we have? You know, like the big round loaves of bread for breakfast and honey and cheese, I think. And, gosh, I think for dinner they, like, pushed us out the door. You know, they wanted us to go and see things. So I think we got dinner on our own. I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they must have provided you with a little pocket money."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So in training, what was training all about? What did you learn in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the big thing was the language."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the language is?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5063805135848691, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the big thing was the language."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the language is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Farsi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Farsi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, that was the main thing. That was like at least half of each day, maybe more. I don't remember exactly. But then they also gave us some training in how to prepare like slides and even how to develop slide film, you know, with chemicals. They showed us how to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For teaching purposes? Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.562645015094299, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Farsi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Farsi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, that was the main thing. That was like at least half of each day, maybe more. I don't remember exactly. But then they also gave us some training in how to prepare like slides and even how to develop slide film, you know, with chemicals. They showed us how to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For teaching purposes? Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How to make your own slides."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6946234754250604, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How to make your own slides."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. The whole thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is assuming that you'd have a slide projector available."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.8575598462037782, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. The whole thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is assuming that you'd have a slide projector available."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it does assume that, doesn't it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I never, I never actually did that. I don't know if any of us did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. Um, let's go back to learning Farsi a little bit. How was that taught? Were you in, there's 150 of you, so they divide you up into small groups for language instruction?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9528442735597535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it does assume that, doesn't it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I never, I never actually did that. I don't know if any of us did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. Um, let's go back to learning Farsi a little bit. How was that taught? Were you in, there's 150 of you, so they divide you up into small groups for language instruction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess they did. I'm sorry, I don't remember. But we had like a half dozen teachers there. So they must, they must have done that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the teachers were native speakers of Farsi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1763509550120415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess they did. I'm sorry, I don't remember. But we had like a half dozen teachers there. So they must, they must have done that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the teachers were native speakers of Farsi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Iranian people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were Iranian people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the summer, when training is over, did you feel that you could converse a little bit in Farsi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3070566166800461, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Iranian people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were Iranian people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the summer, when training is over, did you feel that you could converse a little bit in Farsi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's awesome. Do you remember a phrase or two of it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4522851296444956, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were Iranian people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. So at the end of the summer, when training is over, did you feel that you could converse a little bit in Farsi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's awesome. Do you remember a phrase or two of it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, [speaks Farsi]. My name is Mike. I learned a little bit of Farsi. [speaks Farsi]. You know, like, but see, that's the thing that's amazing is that because I used it, you know, then I can remember some of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, yeah, we'll get into how you used it in a minute. Yeah. So what else? Let's see. So in your training, your training consisted largely of learning to understand and speak Farsi."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6136501440494395, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's awesome. Do you remember a phrase or two of it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, [speaks Farsi]. My name is Mike. I learned a little bit of Farsi. [speaks Farsi]. You know, like, but see, that's the thing that's amazing is that because I used it, you know, then I can remember some of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So, yeah, we'll get into how you used it in a minute. Yeah. So what else? Let's see. So in your training, your training consisted largely of learning to understand and speak Farsi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it a written language? Did you learn to read and write it too?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2135118574066386, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they tried to teach us that, whether we learned it or not is another story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, but there was a big effort, you know, like immersion kind of training. And like I say, you know, making us go out and get meals and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. And then there was technical education, in your case, learning how to make slides, even though you might not have learned it later. Did that give you a glimmer of a certain kind of teaching and learning experience of actually hands on making things?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.4594576193407094, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they tried to teach us that, whether we learned it or not is another story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, but there was a big effort, you know, like immersion kind of training. And like I say, you know, making us go out and get meals and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. And then there was technical education, in your case, learning how to make slides, even though you might not have learned it later. Did that give you a glimmer of a certain kind of teaching and learning experience of actually hands on making things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I've got to remember what else they showed us. I mean, that was so unique. It kind of stuck in my mind. But I'm thinking that they also, like how to do flip charts and, you know, other teaching aids, what you could do. That's the one that I really do remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Did you do any practice teaching in the course of that summer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7327306881563436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, but there was a big effort, you know, like immersion kind of training. And like I say, you know, making us go out and get meals and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. And then there was technical education, in your case, learning how to make slides, even though you might not have learned it later. Did that give you a glimmer of a certain kind of teaching and learning experience of actually hands on making things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I've got to remember what else they showed us. I mean, that was so unique. It kind of stuck in my mind. But I'm thinking that they also, like how to do flip charts and, you know, other teaching aids, what you could do. That's the one that I really do remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Did you do any practice teaching in the course of that summer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. Probably. That would make sense, wouldn't it? But I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So eventually training comes to an end and there must have been a swearing in ceremony and something."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0363674312848263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I've got to remember what else they showed us. I mean, that was so unique. It kind of stuck in my mind. But I'm thinking that they also, like how to do flip charts and, you know, other teaching aids, what you could do. That's the one that I really do remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Did you do any practice teaching in the course of that summer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. Probably. That would make sense, wouldn't it? But I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So eventually training comes to an end and there must have been a swearing in ceremony and something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did we do something like that? I don't remember. Probably had a going away party, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think there was probably a swearing in thing where you raise your right hand and."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.373741590316474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember. Probably. That would make sense, wouldn't it? But I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So eventually training comes to an end and there must have been a swearing in ceremony and something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did we do something like that? I don't remember. Probably had a going away party, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think there was probably a swearing in thing where you raise your right hand and."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that would either have been in Philadelphia or more likely in Iran."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7486017670183043, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did we do something like that? I don't remember. Probably had a going away party, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think there was probably a swearing in thing where you raise your right hand and."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that would either have been in Philadelphia or more likely in Iran."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then they send you off to an assignment."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.165113074464783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that would either have been in Philadelphia or more likely in Iran."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then they send you off to an assignment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did they send you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.561867993166399, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did they send you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, mine, mine was Isfahan. And that's the second largest city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Isfahan."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, you know, a main tourist city. It has these old buildings there. Um, so there were two of us, a guy from Texas and me, and we were sent to two different schools to teach this vocational electro technique."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Vocational electro technique?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.735408881295999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, mine, mine was Isfahan. And that's the second largest city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Isfahan."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, you know, a main tourist city. It has these old buildings there. Um, so there were two of us, a guy from Texas and me, and we were sent to two different schools to teach this vocational electro technique."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Vocational electro technique?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what it means is that it would, ideally would qualify the person to be an electrician to install wiring, you know, like in a home or building, that sort of thing. All electrical equipment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Training people for a trade."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9282320903288876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, you know, a main tourist city. It has these old buildings there. Um, so there were two of us, a guy from Texas and me, and we were sent to two different schools to teach this vocational electro technique."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Vocational electro technique?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what it means is that it would, ideally would qualify the person to be an electrician to install wiring, you know, like in a home or building, that sort of thing. All electrical equipment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Training people for a trade."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so you were both doing the same thing, but in different schools?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.1424801003654306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what it means is that it would, ideally would qualify the person to be an electrician to install wiring, you know, like in a home or building, that sort of thing. All electrical equipment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Training people for a trade."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so you were both doing the same thing, but in different schools?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you room together?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.3805334448504785, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And so you were both doing the same thing, but in different schools?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you room together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk. So before we talk about what went on in the classroom, let's talk about how you lived."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.645037160944976, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you room together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk. So before we talk about what went on in the classroom, let's talk about how you lived."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What? Describe the house or apartment or where did you live?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.82781906771664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk. So before we talk about what went on in the classroom, let's talk about how you lived."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What? Describe the house or apartment or where did you live?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we, we had a, rented a house. And the, uh, the Peace Corps volunteers. You know, it had been like several years’ worth of Peace Corps volunteers in Isfahan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, there had been. So there was a Peace Corps house identified?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9197989641295999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What? Describe the house or apartment or where did you live?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we, we had a, rented a house. And the, uh, the Peace Corps volunteers. You know, it had been like several years’ worth of Peace Corps volunteers in Isfahan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, there had been. So there was a Peace Corps house identified?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, there wasn't a Peace Corps house. But there was one person in particular that was Iranian that was very friendly towards Peace Corps volunteers. And he helped us to find this house. The woman really didn't want to rent it to us because we weren't Muslim, but he kind of persuaded her to do that. It was an older house. It had a, well, I guess it's typical for really for houses in Iran, but the house is built around a central courtyard and it has the big door, you know, it's kind of like you have a walled house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the wall, the door opening in that wall to enter the compound?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1355542767032099, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, there wasn't a Peace Corps house. But there was one person in particular that was Iranian that was very friendly towards Peace Corps volunteers. And he helped us to find this house. The woman really didn't want to rent it to us because we weren't Muslim, but he kind of persuaded her to do that. It was an older house. It had a, well, I guess it's typical for really for houses in Iran, but the house is built around a central courtyard and it has the big door, you know, it's kind of like you have a walled house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the wall, the door opening in that wall to enter the compound?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The door is opening to the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And once you get through that, then you, I think there were no more doors to get through the main way of the, of the home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then rooms opened off, onto a courtyard."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5576876223637992, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Onto the courtyard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the woman?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7307640248486658, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the woman?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't glamorous or anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, yeah. And then the woman who owned the house also lived there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.9230711387207398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the woman?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't glamorous or anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, yeah. And then the woman who owned the house also lived there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. So it was just you and your Peace Corps mate. What was his name?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1395939984206662, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. So it was just you and your Peace Corps mate. What was his name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Swanson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "John?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Swanson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Swanson. Okay. So it was just you and John in this house?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2662155538007402, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Swanson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "John?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Swanson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Swanson. Okay. So it was just you and John in this house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes and no. I mean, the house had maybe like four bedrooms at least, and we were like in this central location. And a number of volunteers were in smaller towns or villages around the area, so frequently, and we were happy, you know, to have these people drop in and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yours was the place where they'd crash."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4069061708897113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Swanson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Swanson. Okay. So it was just you and John in this house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes and no. I mean, the house had maybe like four bedrooms at least, and we were like in this central location. And a number of volunteers were in smaller towns or villages around the area, so frequently, and we were happy, you know, to have these people drop in and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yours was the place where they'd crash."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So that was good. So we had, we had visitors a lot of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can see the parties right now. And what? So you and John each had your own room."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5632290787663459, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes and no. I mean, the house had maybe like four bedrooms at least, and we were like in this central location. And a number of volunteers were in smaller towns or villages around the area, so frequently, and we were happy, you know, to have these people drop in and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yours was the place where they'd crash."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So that was good. So we had, we had visitors a lot of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can see the parties right now. And what? So you and John each had your own room."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then was there a kitchen there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7369211986292732, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So that was good. So we had, we had visitors a lot of times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can see the parties right now. And what? So you and John each had your own room."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then was there a kitchen there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the house."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.1443471588015717, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the house."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who cooked?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we took turns. The Peace Corps had given us this cookbook that was prepared by Peace Corps volunteers in Iran. So they kind of knew what worked, you know, and simple stuff. So we used a lot of those recipes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a unique thing. Do you still have it? Do you still have that cookbook?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.3826079542239684, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who cooked?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we took turns. The Peace Corps had given us this cookbook that was prepared by Peace Corps volunteers in Iran. So they kind of knew what worked, you know, and simple stuff. So we used a lot of those recipes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a unique thing. Do you still have it? Do you still have that cookbook?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe. Somewhere in a box in my garage maybe. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds intriguing. So you and John would cook for yourselves. You took turns cooking and that. And where would you shop for food?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.4251199491377428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we took turns. The Peace Corps had given us this cookbook that was prepared by Peace Corps volunteers in Iran. So they kind of knew what worked, you know, and simple stuff. So we used a lot of those recipes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a unique thing. Do you still have it? Do you still have that cookbook?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe. Somewhere in a box in my garage maybe. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds intriguing. So you and John would cook for yourselves. You took turns cooking and that. And where would you shop for food?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, let's see. There was the, right outside of our house down a couple was the store where they had fresh yogurt, a small store. And he was a friendly guy. So we would buy yogurt and eggs from him. And for other stuff, I think we had to go like about a half mile away to a Armenian store, a grocery store. They would have kind of more Western shopping sort of stuff. But I don't remember all the details. I think we would buy meat from a, well, you know, one of these butcher places local to our house. And definitely you cooked that a lot. You know, you don't want to eat that raw."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, right, right. Yeah, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.47235549904193647, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe. Somewhere in a box in my garage maybe. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds intriguing. So you and John would cook for yourselves. You took turns cooking and that. And where would you shop for food?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, let's see. There was the, right outside of our house down a couple was the store where they had fresh yogurt, a small store. And he was a friendly guy. So we would buy yogurt and eggs from him. And for other stuff, I think we had to go like about a half mile away to a Armenian store, a grocery store. They would have kind of more Western shopping sort of stuff. But I don't remember all the details. I think we would buy meat from a, well, you know, one of these butcher places local to our house. And definitely you cooked that a lot. You know, you don't want to eat that raw."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, right, right. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's been outside and all that stuff. But we survived somehow, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you cook on? You had a stove of some sort?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5831549370888104, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's been outside and all that stuff. But we survived somehow, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you cook on? You had a stove of some sort?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What did we have? I think we had a little stove, a little gas stove. And it worked on those propane cylinders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we would have. I think that's how it was. I think we had one of those in the kitchen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have refrigeration? Oh, you did. So you had electricity. Was it kerosene, the refrigerator, or electric?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6479499300986782, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What did we have? I think we had a little stove, a little gas stove. And it worked on those propane cylinders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we would have. I think that's how it was. I think we had one of those in the kitchen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have refrigeration? Oh, you did. So you had electricity. Was it kerosene, the refrigerator, or electric?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had electricity there. This is the second biggest city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Oh, okay. So you had electric lights?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.719944366776309, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we would have. I think that's how it was. I think we had one of those in the kitchen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have refrigeration? Oh, you did. So you had electricity. Was it kerosene, the refrigerator, or electric?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had electricity there. This is the second biggest city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Oh, okay. So you had electric lights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. First class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. And how about running water?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.79993818530701, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we had electricity there. This is the second biggest city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Oh, okay. So you had electric lights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. First class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. And how about running water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had that too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had flush toilets right there in the house?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.8888202058966778, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. First class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. And how about running water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had that too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had flush toilets right there in the house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, the kind you squat on. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but still."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9875780065518641, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had that too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had flush toilets right there in the house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, the kind you squat on. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but still."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have to go outside."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.0973088961687378, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, the kind you squat on. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but still."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have to go outside."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Sounds pretty good, huh?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[inaudible] Well, wow. If you had electricity, did you have radios? Some contact with the outside world?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2192321068541532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't have to go outside."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Sounds pretty good, huh?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[inaudible] Well, wow. If you had electricity, did you have radios? Some contact with the outside world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I don't remember listening to a radio so much. I mean, there wasn't any. Were there Western stations? I don't think there were. Our music was more like cassettes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, sure, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.354702340949059, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Sounds pretty good, huh?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[inaudible] Well, wow. If you had electricity, did you have radios? Some contact with the outside world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I don't remember listening to a radio so much. I mean, there wasn't any. Were there Western stations? I don't think there were. Our music was more like cassettes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, sure, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had cassette players."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you had brought your music from home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6724720258630357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had cassette players."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you had brought your music from home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, we could buy it also. We could buy cassettes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Early seventies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something like that. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that sounds pretty, like a pretty good. Did it seem like an adequate living arrangement too?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8583022509589284, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah, we could buy it also. We could buy cassettes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Early seventies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something like that. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that sounds pretty, like a pretty good. Did it seem like an adequate living arrangement too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And when you walked out the door. When you stepped out the door, when you opened that door in the wall and stepped out onto the street, um, what did you see? What was going on in the street? What was the neighborhood like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0647802788432537, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something like that. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that sounds pretty, like a pretty good. Did it seem like an adequate living arrangement too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And when you walked out the door. When you stepped out the door, when you opened that door in the wall and stepped out onto the street, um, what did you see? What was going on in the street? What was the neighborhood like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a side street off of a main street. So there were people coming and going, you know, some people riding bicycles. And that was our way of getting around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a bicycle?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2942003098258374, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And when you walked out the door. When you stepped out the door, when you opened that door in the wall and stepped out onto the street, um, what did you see? What was going on in the street? What was the neighborhood like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a side street off of a main street. So there were people coming and going, you know, some people riding bicycles. And that was our way of getting around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a bicycle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We each had a bicycle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peace Corps provided the bike for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.5491114553620418, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a side street off of a main street. So there were people coming and going, you know, some people riding bicycles. And that was our way of getting around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a bicycle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We each had a bicycle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peace Corps provided the bike for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to buy it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1470511794593103, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to buy it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they gave us money to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there'd be that, you know, people walking with groceries and kids and, you know, just people walking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Not so many cars."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.4967235327325668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they gave us money to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there'd be that, you know, people walking with groceries and kids and, you know, just people walking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Not so many cars."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not so many cars. Some cars. I mean, it's not like Iran had a scarcity of cars, but, you know, these kind of back alleys. It wasn't like people would be driving through there unless they live there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you and John have different schools. How far away was your school from where you lived?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.774137258591741, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there'd be that, you know, people walking with groceries and kids and, you know, just people walking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Not so many cars."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not so many cars. Some cars. I mean, it's not like Iran had a scarcity of cars, but, you know, these kind of back alleys. It wasn't like people would be driving through there unless they live there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you and John have different schools. How far away was your school from where you lived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like a ten minute bike ride, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's very doable."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.082374731768601, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not so many cars. Some cars. I mean, it's not like Iran had a scarcity of cars, but, you know, these kind of back alleys. It wasn't like people would be driving through there unless they live there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so you and John have different schools. How far away was your school from where you lived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like a ten minute bike ride, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's very doable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it dangerous riding the bike in traffic and so forth?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.459721891072347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it dangerous riding the bike in traffic and so forth?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, somewhat. I don't ever recall getting hit, but I just remember it wasn't like America, you know, where we kind of. Drivers are supposed to look out for bicycles. You had to be careful that people were not going to do something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess the most dangerous thing was in the winter when it was icy that I did fall off my bike at least once in that situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right in traffic?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6219132123026079, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, somewhat. I don't ever recall getting hit, but I just remember it wasn't like America, you know, where we kind of. Drivers are supposed to look out for bicycles. You had to be careful that people were not going to do something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess the most dangerous thing was in the winter when it was icy that I did fall off my bike at least once in that situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right in traffic?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not in traffic. Just falling off and getting bruised."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, yeah, you talked about getting there. It was pretty hot in the summer, but winter comes and there's ice. Snow also?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.802125791447342, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess the most dangerous thing was in the winter when it was icy that I did fall off my bike at least once in that situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right in traffic?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not in traffic. Just falling off and getting bruised."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, yeah, you talked about getting there. It was pretty hot in the summer, but winter comes and there's ice. Snow also?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Snow, a little. It didn't snow a lot there, but it did some. I mean, enough to leave build ups on the roads and they didn't really do like ice melting and, you know, snow plows and stuff. I think it was people shoveling as I recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Or tromping through it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.0023619904970467, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not in traffic. Just falling off and getting bruised."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, yeah, you talked about getting there. It was pretty hot in the summer, but winter comes and there's ice. Snow also?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Snow, a little. It didn't snow a lot there, but it did some. I mean, enough to leave build ups on the roads and they didn't really do like ice melting and, you know, snow plows and stuff. I think it was people shoveling as I recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Or tromping through it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you get to your school. Let's walk in the door of the school. The school's a high school, a vocational school, at the secondary level. How old are the students?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1137355449967188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Snow, a little. It didn't snow a lot there, but it did some. I mean, enough to leave build ups on the roads and they didn't really do like ice melting and, you know, snow plows and stuff. I think it was people shoveling as I recall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Or tromping through it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you get to your school. Let's walk in the door of the school. The school's a high school, a vocational school, at the secondary level. How old are the students?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess like 15 or something like that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. You didn't have people in their twenties there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3749821543169367, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess like 15 or something like that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. You didn't have people in their twenties there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they're pretty much all young."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Same high school ages here."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5277579492410407, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they're pretty much all young."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Same high school ages here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Okay. And so what was that like when you first got to the school? If you arrived there at the end of, you arrived in Isfahan at the end of the summer, so does their school year begin as ours does in September?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6975088324900451, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they're pretty much all young."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Same high school ages here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Okay. And so what was that like when you first got to the school? If you arrived there at the end of, you arrived in Isfahan at the end of the summer, so does their school year begin as ours does in September?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you're there, and somebody must have given you a list of classes and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0956899166543765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you're there, and somebody must have given you a list of classes and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the way it was, they did have classrooms and they had like workshops and I was assigned to be in a workshop. It was, it was challenging for me to be able to contribute something because the school had been there for a while and it had teachers for a while already. And to have some youngster come in and, you know, try to suggest how to do things didn't fly too well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I, my understanding is that the central government, you know, kind of assigned volunteers to schools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As opposed to the school requesting a teacher with a particular skill?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.3285443518381963, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the way it was, they did have classrooms and they had like workshops and I was assigned to be in a workshop. It was, it was challenging for me to be able to contribute something because the school had been there for a while and it had teachers for a while already. And to have some youngster come in and, you know, try to suggest how to do things didn't fly too well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I, my understanding is that the central government, you know, kind of assigned volunteers to schools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As opposed to the school requesting a teacher with a particular skill?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm, that's awkward, isn't it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.8747461133804895, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm, that's awkward, isn't it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it is. And, you know, I certainly got the feeling that they, the other teachers. We had two or three, maybe two. Sorry. There were two, two teachers in this workshop that had been there for a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Iranian teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Iranian teachers, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had they had a Peace Corps volunteer on staff before?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.194162348200544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it is. And, you know, I certainly got the feeling that they, the other teachers. We had two or three, maybe two. Sorry. There were two, two teachers in this workshop that had been there for a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Iranian teachers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Iranian teachers, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had they had a Peace Corps volunteer on staff before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think the school did. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so were you given your own class to teach?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.549069275778382, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Iranian teachers, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had they had a Peace Corps volunteer on staff before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think the school did. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so were you given your own class to teach?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or were you sort of just there helping out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.262097771986807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would have been extremely difficult for me to do that really. The, the, you know, the place that I found that I could fit in ironically was, it was in the auto mechanic shop, which is not what I was sent to do. But the person in that shop had acquired like engine tuning equipment, some other equipment from, from Europe, from England. And he wanted help to translate the instruction manual."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I spent at least half my time there with that, the person that helped rent the house, you know, because I know English and he knows my English is good and his Persian is good. So together we would translate pages out of this manual."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Manual. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the instructor very much appreciated that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. Good. Yeah. So now they're glad you're there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7927132987491445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the instructor very much appreciated that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good. Good. Yeah. So now they're glad you're there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he was anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it sounds like the person that you're mainly talking to and working with is the guy who was a friend of the Peace Corps, the same one who helped to find the house."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1030147763879383, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he was anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it sounds like the person that you're mainly talking to and working with is the guy who was a friend of the Peace Corps, the same one who helped to find the house."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's, that's true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had some English or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:341", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.447794195986598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it sounds like the person that you're mainly talking to and working with is the guy who was a friend of the Peace Corps, the same one who helped to find the house."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's, that's true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had some English or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "His English was, was pretty good. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were using, you were also using your Farsi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8308824399851087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's, that's true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had some English or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "His English was, was pretty good. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were using, you were also using your Farsi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With other people on the staff?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.256536044427898, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "His English was, was pretty good. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were using, you were also using your Farsi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With other people on the staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And just with daily life, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that went on for a while. And then? Eventually you finish translating the manual."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.5072622715865536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With other people on the staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And just with daily life, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that went on for a while. And then? Eventually you finish translating the manual."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't remember the sequence of stuff, but it seemed like I was always working with him some way or another. And in the electrical shop, I was able to repair some experiments and get some equipment going. And, but I felt it wasn't, it didn't make so much difference really. You know, I tried. But the, uh, the reality is that. So engineers are kind of respected in Iran. But here in the U.S., you know, if you go to UC Berkeley and get an engineering degree, you know, to install a circuit for a light fixture is like, where do I start, you know? You know, they don't teach stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a more highly theoretical technical level."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.785846968429504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And just with daily life, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that went on for a while. And then? Eventually you finish translating the manual."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't remember the sequence of stuff, but it seemed like I was always working with him some way or another. And in the electrical shop, I was able to repair some experiments and get some equipment going. And, but I felt it wasn't, it didn't make so much difference really. You know, I tried. But the, uh, the reality is that. So engineers are kind of respected in Iran. But here in the U.S., you know, if you go to UC Berkeley and get an engineering degree, you know, to install a circuit for a light fixture is like, where do I start, you know? You know, they don't teach stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a more highly theoretical technical level."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, the higher areas. And, you know, ideally they would have had like licensed electricians go over there and teach this stuff. But anyway, you know, the Peace Corps does the best they can with the people that they get, right? So that's the way it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they get an intellectual engineer from Berkeley trying to teach the basic electrical mechanics."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0953855204772265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't remember the sequence of stuff, but it seemed like I was always working with him some way or another. And in the electrical shop, I was able to repair some experiments and get some equipment going. And, but I felt it wasn't, it didn't make so much difference really. You know, I tried. But the, uh, the reality is that. So engineers are kind of respected in Iran. But here in the U.S., you know, if you go to UC Berkeley and get an engineering degree, you know, to install a circuit for a light fixture is like, where do I start, you know? You know, they don't teach stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a more highly theoretical technical level."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, the higher areas. And, you know, ideally they would have had like licensed electricians go over there and teach this stuff. But anyway, you know, the Peace Corps does the best they can with the people that they get, right? So that's the way it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they get an intellectual engineer from Berkeley trying to teach the basic electrical mechanics."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So it's just, it was a difficult combination."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you're smiling when you say that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.246070672808266, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, because for me, you know, it was, the whole thing was an experience, you know, a life experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't, I don't regret that. I mean, it was very valuable for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In that first year that you're there, how was your health holding up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6067451920091846, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't, I don't regret that. I mean, it was very valuable for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In that first year that you're there, how was your health holding up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think I ever had any major problems. I mean, every so often, you know, you had to be really, really careful. And every so often, if you eat some unwashed vegetable or, you know, you just don't pay attention, then you can get pretty sick. And I think that would happen to me every couple of months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Of course, you had to probably boil your water and filter it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.007494657787983, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In that first year that you're there, how was your health holding up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think I ever had any major problems. I mean, every so often, you know, you had to be really, really careful. And every so often, if you eat some unwashed vegetable or, you know, you just don't pay attention, then you can get pretty sick. And I think that would happen to me every couple of months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Of course, you had to probably boil your water and filter it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to boil it or put some, you know, stuff in it. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you'd occasionally get sick, but nothing life threatening?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.452771841986647, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think I ever had any major problems. I mean, every so often, you know, you had to be really, really careful. And every so often, if you eat some unwashed vegetable or, you know, you just don't pay attention, then you can get pretty sick. And I think that would happen to me every couple of months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Of course, you had to probably boil your water and filter it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to boil it or put some, you know, stuff in it. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you'd occasionally get sick, but nothing life threatening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did you have, uh, when there would be a break in the school year for some sort of holiday, um, did you? What did you do? Did you travel or did you have a side little secondary project to work on?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:369", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.87348675169636, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they, they just, you know, we had the summer off, actually. So it was pretty amazing, you know. We still got the Peace Corps salary too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um. I, where did I go traveling with? I, there were different occasions, but the most memorable was, was going to this village above the Caspian Sea. And it was really rustic. You know, if you talk about no electricity and running water, this was that, you know, and I went with another Peace Corps volunteer that we were kind of friendly. And he was, I think, working in one of the villages in the area. But this was very fascinating. The people were very welcoming to us and they wanted to even, uh, at one point they were having some celebration for something or another, and they wanted us to sing and dance together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's like, wait a minute, I just, I don't think so, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, their concept of dancing would be very different from yours."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.414985279662622, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um. I, where did I go traveling with? I, there were different occasions, but the most memorable was, was going to this village above the Caspian Sea. And it was really rustic. You know, if you talk about no electricity and running water, this was that, you know, and I went with another Peace Corps volunteer that we were kind of friendly. And he was, I think, working in one of the villages in the area. But this was very fascinating. The people were very welcoming to us and they wanted to even, uh, at one point they were having some celebration for something or another, and they wanted us to sing and dance together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's like, wait a minute, I just, I don't think so, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, their concept of dancing would be very different from yours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, but it's like, they're very free, you know, and happy to, you know, and they grew up like that. And it's like, oh, let's have fun, you know? And I guess I just, anyway, I mean, I enjoyed it, but I just wasn't as free to be able to do that sort of thing. Kind of a regret, I guess, you know. But just that's the way it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you are. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:373", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.016650310736246, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's like, wait a minute, I just, I don't think so, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, their concept of dancing would be very different from yours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, but it's like, they're very free, you know, and happy to, you know, and they grew up like that. And it's like, oh, let's have fun, you know? And I guess I just, anyway, I mean, I enjoyed it, but I just wasn't as free to be able to do that sort of thing. Kind of a regret, I guess, you know. But just that's the way it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you are. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was, that was a nice experience just to see people kind of enjoying themselves, you know, without all the television and, you know, all the stuff, you know. They just had a good time together. That's kind of for me very amazing, you know, to see that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm going to ask you about that, about how that might have affected your life later on. But let's stay in Iran for now."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:375", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.6851670119291615, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, but it's like, they're very free, you know, and happy to, you know, and they grew up like that. And it's like, oh, let's have fun, you know? And I guess I just, anyway, I mean, I enjoyed it, but I just wasn't as free to be able to do that sort of thing. Kind of a regret, I guess, you know. But just that's the way it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you are. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was, that was a nice experience just to see people kind of enjoying themselves, you know, without all the television and, you know, all the stuff, you know. They just had a good time together. That's kind of for me very amazing, you know, to see that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm going to ask you about that, about how that might have affected your life later on. But let's stay in Iran for now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were there any other trips you took?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.216255570282916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were there any other trips you took?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess we just had the one summer in between and then. I forget how the schedule worked exactly. But after that, you know, that was the end of the two years, you know, the one summer between and then another year of teaching. And then the two years was finished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So after that, I did kind of take my time and I think I went part ways with another, not a Peace Corps volunteer, but a guy that taught in a, somehow in a Christian school. But you can't really be a Christian school in Iran. I don't remember how that worked, but somehow they. But he and I traveled together through Turkey and Greece, and at some point we went our different ways. I don't remember when that happened, but that was also a new thing for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. A unique opportunity for a man who was still in his early twenties."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3513950780921289, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess we just had the one summer in between and then. I forget how the schedule worked exactly. But after that, you know, that was the end of the two years, you know, the one summer between and then another year of teaching. And then the two years was finished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So after that, I did kind of take my time and I think I went part ways with another, not a Peace Corps volunteer, but a guy that taught in a, somehow in a Christian school. But you can't really be a Christian school in Iran. I don't remember how that worked, but somehow they. But he and I traveled together through Turkey and Greece, and at some point we went our different ways. I don't remember when that happened, but that was also a new thing for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. A unique opportunity for a man who was still in his early twenties."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Back in Isfahan when you're teaching, did you have, did anybody from Peace Corps come out to see how you're doing and talk to you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5015500867690321, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So after that, I did kind of take my time and I think I went part ways with another, not a Peace Corps volunteer, but a guy that taught in a, somehow in a Christian school. But you can't really be a Christian school in Iran. I don't remember how that worked, but somehow they. But he and I traveled together through Turkey and Greece, and at some point we went our different ways. I don't remember when that happened, but that was also a new thing for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. A unique opportunity for a man who was still in his early twenties."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Back in Isfahan when you're teaching, did you have, did anybody from Peace Corps come out to see how you're doing and talk to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably. I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you have a sense that you had a supervisor who was checking on you, or were you pretty much on your own?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:387", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7426544281099159, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably. I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you have a sense that you had a supervisor who was checking on you, or were you pretty much on your own?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we felt connected. I felt connected. And, you know, one of the things we would do anyway was to, uh, to go to Tehran every so often, you know? I don't remember how often, once every month or so, you know, we'd get on the bus and it's like an overnight, unpleasant thing. But anyway, go to Tehran and we could visit the Peace Corps office and talk with people there and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go to the American embassy and get all kinds of goodies, you know, the shopping there. And there was this interesting hotel that we stayed at. Goats running around in the hotel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness. In Tehran?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.8251715867887954, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we felt connected. I felt connected. And, you know, one of the things we would do anyway was to, uh, to go to Tehran every so often, you know? I don't remember how often, once every month or so, you know, we'd get on the bus and it's like an overnight, unpleasant thing. But anyway, go to Tehran and we could visit the Peace Corps office and talk with people there and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go to the American embassy and get all kinds of goodies, you know, the shopping there. And there was this interesting hotel that we stayed at. Goats running around in the hotel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness. In Tehran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Tehran, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Suddenly it breaks the image that I had."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:391", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9168573186542172, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Go to the American embassy and get all kinds of goodies, you know, the shopping there. And there was this interesting hotel that we stayed at. Goats running around in the hotel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness. In Tehran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Tehran, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Suddenly it breaks the image that I had."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Well, this was a unique hotel. This was like the, the world traveler backpack person kind of hotel. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I love the smile on your face. I wish this were a video recording."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:395", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1319226156224902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Well, this was a unique hotel. This was like the, the world traveler backpack person kind of hotel. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I love the smile on your face. I wish this were a video recording."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, I'm trying to remember the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The things, you know. But yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that, you mentioned a Peace Corps salary. In the sixties, they called it a living allowance, which was very modest. Do you remember about how much did you get and how did you pick it up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2576917951361002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, I'm trying to remember the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The things, you know. But yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that, you mentioned a Peace Corps salary. In the sixties, they called it a living allowance, which was very modest. Do you remember about how much did you get and how did you pick it up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I don't remember, but it was really like a lot. I mean, I actually bought a lot of rugs and goodies and stuff there, you know, that, you know, the copperware and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get that home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.5527059199211113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I don't remember, but it was really like a lot. I mean, I actually bought a lot of rugs and goodies and stuff there, you know, that, you know, the copperware and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get that home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, we, the Peace Corps knew people that we could ship it with. But actually, I got some stuff stolen, so it didn't work out all that great. But anyway. In other words, we had enough money to do more than our needs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some, a couple of people bought motorcycles. And I don't know if that was really supposed to be, but anyhow, I won't say any names then. It wasn't me. But yeah, just if you lived basically it was fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could save up a few."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:403", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6141176888012347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, we, the Peace Corps knew people that we could ship it with. But actually, I got some stuff stolen, so it didn't work out all that great. But anyway. In other words, we had enough money to do more than our needs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some, a couple of people bought motorcycles. And I don't know if that was really supposed to be, but anyhow, I won't say any names then. It wasn't me. But yeah, just if you lived basically it was fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could save up a few."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And they had some money also, a couple thousand dollars ready for us when we finished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Readjustment loans."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:405", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6823529875569275, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some, a couple of people bought motorcycles. And I don't know if that was really supposed to be, but anyhow, I won't say any names then. It wasn't me. But yeah, just if you lived basically it was fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could save up a few."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And they had some money also, a couple thousand dollars ready for us when we finished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Readjustment loans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Used to call them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:407", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7581699861743639, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And they had some money also, a couple thousand dollars ready for us when we finished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Readjustment loans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Used to call them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It sounds about right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Meanwhile, you've got a family back in California. Your mom and dad and your sister. And you were writing letters and getting letters from them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:409", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.8424110957492933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Used to call them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It sounds about right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Meanwhile, you've got a family back in California. Your mom and dad and your sister. And you were writing letters and getting letters from them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was that blue air letter."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:411", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9360123286103259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It sounds about right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Meanwhile, you've got a family back in California. Your mom and dad and your sister. And you were writing letters and getting letters from them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was that blue air letter."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what it was. The air grams. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Try to cram as much as you could. Yeah. You still have them? Or does your mom have them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:421", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5851450974789172, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I still have some of those tablecloths. Well, anyway, one Christmas I got the idea that I would bring a bunch of these aerograms to one of these shops where they're doing the stamping and said, can you stamp these for me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got these really nice designs stamped on the aerograms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How lovely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you sent them off?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:423", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.76127233053213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got these really nice designs stamped on the aerograms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How lovely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you sent them off?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sent them, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, you're getting letters from your folks. They're writing to you too."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:433", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7481622559774588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, our kitchen featured cockroaches that would come out at night, you know, out of the drain, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When you turn the light on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:435", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9424025066416208, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, our kitchen featured cockroaches that would come out at night, you know, out of the drain, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When you turn the light on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my mom was like kind of freaked out about the situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But she wasn't sleeping there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:437", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.1582250073795786, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When you turn the light on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my mom was like kind of freaked out about the situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But she wasn't sleeping there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, she wasn't sleeping there. But it was nice. And one of the things that she remembered was going shopping with me in the bazaar, and she wanted to buy this pair of shoes. She saw these shoes that she liked and negotiate, you know, try to make a deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, so in the bazaar, you don't pay what their first price."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:439", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2869166748661987, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So my mom was like kind of freaked out about the situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But she wasn't sleeping there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, she wasn't sleeping there. But it was nice. And one of the things that she remembered was going shopping with me in the bazaar, and she wanted to buy this pair of shoes. She saw these shoes that she liked and negotiate, you know, try to make a deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, so in the bazaar, you don't pay what their first price."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. So we made some kind of deal and I wasn't satisfied with it. And I told my mom, look, we've just got to walk away from the person, okay? And she's all upset. I want the shoes. Mom, just got to walk away from the person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not how you do it. Right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:443", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5887860183533318, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. So we made some kind of deal and I wasn't satisfied with it. And I told my mom, look, we've just got to walk away from the person, okay? And she's all upset. I want the shoes. Mom, just got to walk away from the person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not how you do it. Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know? So we walked away and he came after us and said, okay, okay, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so my mom was happy about that. She remembers that one. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you'd like to say about your time in the Peace Corps? Would you recommend it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:447", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9614642201892982, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so my mom was happy about that. She remembers that one. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you'd like to say about your time in the Peace Corps? Would you recommend it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Would I recommend it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess it depends who I'm recommending it to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, a kid graduating from Berkeley today."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:449", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.1794046890992202, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Would I recommend it?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess it depends who I'm recommending it to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, a kid graduating from Berkeley today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd would say that it's definitely a good experience and a good way to see people in real life in a different country. But it also is going to mean some sacrifice and discomfort. So you've got to be okay with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Do you think it changed your perspective on the world in any way?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:451", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.4215607656658, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess it depends who I'm recommending it to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, a kid graduating from Berkeley today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd would say that it's definitely a good experience and a good way to see people in real life in a different country. But it also is going to mean some sacrifice and discomfort. So you've got to be okay with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Do you think it changed your perspective on the world in any way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. No doubt about it. Dramatically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does it affect your own perception of your own country, of the United States, having been abroad, having been there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:455", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9895811921799997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. No doubt about it. Dramatically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does it affect your own perception of your own country, of the United States, having been abroad, having been there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, I gave you that moment of going to the village, you know, and the people kind of enjoying their life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. No TV. That's right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:459", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6908409779999998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, no, I gave you that moment of going to the village, you know, and the people kind of enjoying their life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. No TV. That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And all that stuff. And another thing I noticed was that the families were very close to each other. And, you know, when I, one of the things that struck me when I came back to the U.S. was this kind of casual way of parents picking up their kids from the airport. You know, like no big deal, you know, like from the international terminal at the airport. And contrast that to Iran, where it is a really big deal, you know, to see one of your family people coming back again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Embracing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very close. Yeah. And another thing was the contrast between someone in Iran who really was qualified. I met one person who wanted to be a doctor. Very, very good person. Not, not, you know, a not a Peace Corps volunteer. But somehow we met. I don't remember how. But he wanted to be a doctor and it was just very, very difficult, almost impossible, you know. And it just, I realized, you know, it's like an unfair situation, you know, because I can come back to the U.S. and I can do whatever I want, you know? But to be a doctor in Iran is like this tiny number of people can go to school there for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And would you have to be a member of the moneyed elite in order to get that education?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:463", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.5565938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very close. Yeah. And another thing was the contrast between someone in Iran who really was qualified. I met one person who wanted to be a doctor. Very, very good person. Not, not, you know, a not a Peace Corps volunteer. But somehow we met. I don't remember how. But he wanted to be a doctor and it was just very, very difficult, almost impossible, you know. And it just, I realized, you know, it's like an unfair situation, you know, because I can come back to the U.S. and I can do whatever I want, you know? But to be a doctor in Iran is like this tiny number of people can go to school there for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And would you have to be a member of the moneyed elite in order to get that education?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That I don't even know about. Probably so. You know, you probably have to be connected somehow to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that struck me. It's like unfortunate, you know, that people couldn't have the opportunities that we have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When you came back, what did you do with the rest of your life? Did you go back to school? Did you get an advanced degree or did you go right back to work?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:465", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 5.062882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That I don't even know about. Probably so. You know, you probably have to be connected somehow to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that struck me. It's like unfortunate, you know, that people couldn't have the opportunities that we have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When you came back, what did you do with the rest of your life? Did you go back to school? Did you get an advanced degree or did you go right back to work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What did I do? Well, I think I had taken some aptitude tests at some point that suggested that physical therapy would be a good career for me. Because I did have, I didn't want to live like I saw all the people at the companies that I work for, kind of these large companies. And it seemed like not so much of a joyful sort of career. And I realized that it's much better if you can do something that you're interacting with and helping people directly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Do you think your experience in Iran helped you see that about yourself?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:467", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1809800000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that struck me. It's like unfortunate, you know, that people couldn't have the opportunities that we have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When you came back, what did you do with the rest of your life? Did you go back to school? Did you get an advanced degree or did you go right back to work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What did I do? Well, I think I had taken some aptitude tests at some point that suggested that physical therapy would be a good career for me. Because I did have, I didn't want to live like I saw all the people at the companies that I work for, kind of these large companies. And it seemed like not so much of a joyful sort of career. And I realized that it's much better if you can do something that you're interacting with and helping people directly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Do you think your experience in Iran helped you see that about yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it at least helped me to see that I needed to do something different than trying to go back to one of those companies or environments where I was before. So, um. So what? I started studying physical therapy, and to do that I had to take prerequisite courses at Cal State Hayward, now Cal State East Bay. So I was doing that. And, you know, Carol is a member of the Unification Church and so am I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Carol is my cousin, which is how we're mentioning Carol."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:471", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4580000000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it at least helped me to see that I needed to do something different than trying to go back to one of those companies or environments where I was before. So, um. So what? I started studying physical therapy, and to do that I had to take prerequisite courses at Cal State Hayward, now Cal State East Bay. So I was doing that. And, you know, Carol is a member of the Unification Church and so am I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Carol is my cousin, which is how we're mentioning Carol."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, yeah. I was going to the Berkeley campus to, after I got back, to do some research in the library. And I actually met one of the members of our church there on campus. They had a table there. And so I got connected that way. And, you know, I was, I was looking for something more than just kind of a small, selfish sort of lifestyle. And so I did want to meet this community. So I was introduced to the church and I continued to go into the, to continue with the physical therapy prerequisite classes. But eventually I realized, you know, really what I want to do is just be a full time missionary for the church."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's, that's, that's what I did. I didn't get another job with an engineering company for quite a while. Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, thank you, Mike."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:473", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, yeah. I was going to the Berkeley campus to, after I got back, to do some research in the library. And I actually met one of the members of our church there on campus. They had a table there. And so I got connected that way. And, you know, I was, I was looking for something more than just kind of a small, selfish sort of lifestyle. And so I did want to meet this community. So I was introduced to the church and I continued to go into the, to continue with the physical therapy prerequisite classes. But eventually I realized, you know, really what I want to do is just be a full time missionary for the church."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's, that's, that's what I did. I didn't get another job with an engineering company for quite a while. Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, thank you, Mike."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you'd like to say?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:475", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's, that's, that's what I did. I didn't get another job with an engineering company for quite a while. Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, thank you, Mike."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you'd like to say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Ask your next question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I'm out of questions."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00034:477", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you'd like to say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Ask your next question."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I'm out of questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very much. It's been wonderful getting your story."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00318:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 20, "return_to_go": 62.463005939000176, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not confident that we could do it. But there were plenty of stopping points along the way. Not once you light the fire, in terms of the risks now begin to multiply. But there were plenty of places along the operational mission where we could stop and regroup and reconsider, even though we were up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now that the rest of the Space Center here in Houston knew the plan, what was the reaction from the troops here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was total excitement and exhilaration. Everybody recognized what a challenge that was, and what a shock to them, like the rest of us, that NASA was willing to do it. Because by this time we were pretty—what's the word? We were a pretty bureaucratic organization by this point in time. Even though NASA was the best-run group in the government, which even Senator—who was the senator from [Wisconsin]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[William] Proxmire?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Proxmire. He invented the Golden Fleece Award. Even though he said we were wasting all this money, he said on the floor of the Senate that it was still the best-run organization in the government. So we were a very great organization, and able to do what we did technically, but we still were bureaucratic at that point from where we had come from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we took just a second for a break, you talked about how it was a minute-by-minute-planned event. Would you share with us how you balanced all those aspects that you mentioned: the scientific goals and objectives, getting the people trained? Tell us how you started putting all this together and were able to accomplish what you did in such a short amount of time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00318:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.866277222370005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you better worry about it, because if you don't worry about it it's going to happen, and it's going to give you problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was curious about a different type of issue that I thought might take a lot of details to think about it, and that's the equipment to photograph the Moon. You had photos that come back from unmanned, but now as you mentioned you were having eyeballs that were going to do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well it turns out that's easy. It turns out that you can do it with a Brownie and get perfect pictures. Because there is no atmosphere, and the focusing is so far away that you don't have to worry about that if you're taking pictures of the Moon. The colors are true because you don't have the atmosphere screwing it up. So if you take an F setting in a Brownie camera, it's about as good as you can get. Now, we did use the best. It was a Hasselblad. I met him. Great gentleman, [Victor Hasselblad]. He was very very pleased that we had his camera on board. Probably made his company. But we used a Hasselblad camera because it took great pictures. But as I said, you could have used a Brownie."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting. It was the first time that the world got to see the Earth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now that probably was the most significant picture. I was reminded of that the other day, when I said I was going to do this. Somebody said, \"That picture they took of the Earth was probably the greatest picture ever obtained in space,\" and it is. Taking that picture of Earth was really something, and particularly Earthrise at the Moon. I'm surprised it's not in this office. It's almost in every office in the Johnson Space Center somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll fix that. We'll get it in here."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00318:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.184752469300005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well it turns out that's easy. It turns out that you can do it with a Brownie and get perfect pictures. Because there is no atmosphere, and the focusing is so far away that you don't have to worry about that if you're taking pictures of the Moon. The colors are true because you don't have the atmosphere screwing it up. So if you take an F setting in a Brownie camera, it's about as good as you can get. Now, we did use the best. It was a Hasselblad. I met him. Great gentleman, [Victor Hasselblad]. He was very very pleased that we had his camera on board. Probably made his company. But we used a Hasselblad camera because it took great pictures. But as I said, you could have used a Brownie."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting. It was the first time that the world got to see the Earth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now that probably was the most significant picture. I was reminded of that the other day, when I said I was going to do this. Somebody said, \"That picture they took of the Earth was probably the greatest picture ever obtained in space,\" and it is. Taking that picture of Earth was really something, and particularly Earthrise at the Moon. I'm surprised it's not in this office. It's almost in every office in the Johnson Space Center somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll fix that. We'll get it in here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it's a very very very famous picture. Borman will tell you that when he saw that, it was one of the most impressive sights he's ever seen in his life. All three of them will tell you that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I found it interesting in your book that you talked about Bill Anders talking about Earthshine."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00318:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 25.760836077000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now that probably was the most significant picture. I was reminded of that the other day, when I said I was going to do this. Somebody said, \"That picture they took of the Earth was probably the greatest picture ever obtained in space,\" and it is. Taking that picture of Earth was really something, and particularly Earthrise at the Moon. I'm surprised it's not in this office. It's almost in every office in the Johnson Space Center somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll fix that. We'll get it in here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it's a very very very famous picture. Borman will tell you that when he saw that, it was one of the most impressive sights he's ever seen in his life. All three of them will tell you that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I found it interesting in your book that you talked about Bill Anders talking about Earthshine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share a little bit more about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 38.22072582476673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> None that I can think right off. There were always a lot of fun times. I remember when Scott Carpenter was up at Johnsville, Pennsylvania. This was a little later in the Mercury Program. He was up there evaluating another suit of ours. This was in '63, because my son was born July 10 of '63. He was up there. My wife and her parents were up there with me, and they came over to the centrifuge, and Scott came out of the spacecraft all in the suit, out of the gondola.\\n\\n I wonder if we could start that over again. Can I repeat what I was saying? Go ahead and repeat your question. You said anecdotes, didn't you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Okay. I remember one thing that came up, was that Scott Carpenter was at Johnsville evaluating a new suit for us. My wife and my son, who was just born—he might have been less than a month old—they came over to the centrifuge, and I introduced him to my in-laws, and we plopped my son Tom in his arms when he was fully suited and had a picture taken of it. He still has that picture. I thought that was pretty neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's probably very special for your son."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not everybody gets to be held by an astronaut."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 42.4674731386297, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Okay. I remember one thing that came up, was that Scott Carpenter was at Johnsville evaluating a new suit for us. My wife and my son, who was just born—he might have been less than a month old—they came over to the centrifuge, and I introduced him to my in-laws, and we plopped my son Tom in his arms when he was fully suited and had a picture taken of it. He still has that picture. I thought that was pretty neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's probably very special for your son."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not everybody gets to be held by an astronaut."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Fully suited, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the Mercury Program, the Manned Spacecraft Center was being built and you were transferred down here. How did you and your family feel about transferring down to Houston? Did that change your job any?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 43.852747931810775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not everybody gets to be held by an astronaut."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Fully suited, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the Mercury Program, the Manned Spacecraft Center was being built and you were transferred down here. How did you and your family feel about transferring down to Houston? Did that change your job any?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> After the Mercury Program, they asked me to transfer to Houston. This was in '63. This was shortly after my son was born. Basically I closed up shop, transferred a lot of things from the Cape to Houston, and then I drove from Cape Canaveral to Houston, and we went to work at the Lane Wells Building in Houston because the site was still being built. That's where we started working on suits for the Gemini Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of changes did you as suit technicians have to make when you changed from a one-man crew to a two-man crew?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 45.25670014366243, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Yes. They were with David Clark Company, and they had a field office down here. They worked right next door to our suit lab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they participate in the training with the astronauts or just on maintaining the suits? What exactly did they do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> They basically maintained the suit. Their job was to maintain the suit, test the suit, that sort of thing. The bioinstrumentation primarily took place at the Cape, let's say. It was done by bioinstrumentation techs at the Cape. The suit-up involved the suit technicians, the NASA suit technicians. The contractors were there to maintain the suits, but that was their responsibility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any special memories from the period you worked in Gemini?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> I can always remember things like receiving a suit and finding that the arms and the leg liners were twisted and stuff like that. It was one of those things where things that aren't supposed to happen, but that's why you come to work early and check out the suit, to make sure that things were done right. So you have to unzip this thing. Sometimes that was a little bit of a hassle, because you had to completely unzip this thing from the inside, reaching in just by feel, and then straightening out the twist and zipping it up correctly and that sort of thing. We had a good bunch of people working with us. They were conscientious folks. Mistakes happen, but fortunately we caught all these mistakes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don't we take a short break before we get into Apollo. [Tape recorder turned off.]\\n\\n Let's pick up where we left off. You went from the Gemini Program over to the Apollo Program. What were you doing initially?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 33.40451172635639, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Because they basically got both the spacecraft, the suits, qualified for flight. If I remember correctly, Chamber B had both—you could do cold temperatures or you could do the hot side of the temperature scale, plus 250 and minus 250, that sort of thing. My memory may not serve me right when I say we ran those temperature ranges on those two programs. I'm not sure that we did. I don't really remember on LTA-8 whether we ran the—I know we did it on other tests. Those were two programs that got the spacecraft and the suits that much closer to launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you finished working on those test programs, what did you do next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> We supported a lot of in-house tests. We supported a lot of tests out on the lunar rock pile out here at JSC [Johnson Space Center]. I didn't get to go to Flagstaff, Arizona. Walt Salyer covered that particular test. There was a lunar terrain, and I think Walt Cunningham and a few of the other astronauts participated in that exercise. We had a lot of programs in-house that we supported, in the trainers, command module trainers, in the lunar module trainers. We supported the different crews. I did support Block One, but my first Apollo flight that I supported, I believe, was Apollo 10, and I worked Apollo 10, Apollo 14, and Apollo 17. We had about three teams working at that time. We had the fellows from the Air Force with us, Troy Stewart and Frank Hernandez and Barry Lewis and Byron Smith. George Summers was the lead fellow, master sergeant, during those programs, and those guys were a great support to us, because we didn't have enough personnel, NASA personnel, to support all these flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said the first crew you supported in the Apollo program was Apollo 10."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did the support of this crew differ from supporting the Gemini crews that you worked with?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 38.01336470788054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> That was lot of work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any specific mission that you have special memories of during Apollo that involved some type of involvement from you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> I remember reading, Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] was talking about practicing with his golf club, you know, and nobody really knew he was going to do that, but one day when we were at the Cape, he asked me to come back into the suit room, that he wanted to try something. I can't remember whether this was at the end of the day or like that. There weren't any people around. We went back, and he asked me to pressurize his suit in the suit room, he wanted to practice something. Lo and behold, here he had this golf club, which was an extension of a tool that he had, and he was practicing. We pressurized him, and he was practicing his swing at that time. I remember that vividly. We had good times with the crew. We worked close with the crew, developed, like I say, a good rapport with the crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any astronauts in particular that you had an especially close relationship with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> No, I think basically it was a working relationship. It wasn't a social relationship, but we always had a good time. We always felt like we were doing our job and they were respectful that we were doing our job and had confidence in what we were doing. I was taught by a fellow by the name of Joe Schmitt, who I worked with in the very beginning, who had excellent work standards, and Joe was very meticulous in everything that he did, and I like to think some of that rubbed off on me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the Apollo Program, Skylab began. Were you involved with the Skylab Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 33.34983297269203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> No, I think basically it was a working relationship. It wasn't a social relationship, but we always had a good time. We always felt like we were doing our job and they were respectful that we were doing our job and had confidence in what we were doing. I was taught by a fellow by the name of Joe Schmitt, who I worked with in the very beginning, who had excellent work standards, and Joe was very meticulous in everything that he did, and I like to think some of that rubbed off on me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the Apollo Program, Skylab began. Were you involved with the Skylab Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Yes. I worked, I think it was the second Skylab flight with Al [Alan L.] Bean [Jr.] and Owen [K.] Garriott and with Jack [R.] Lousma. I worked that particular flight, and that was a different trainer altogether. That was over in Building 5 also. Building Five changed a lot during those days. There were many different kinds of trainers that were put in that mock-up over the years. We did a lot of training, command module training, training of sorts in Skylab, though they weren't wearing suits in there. They'd have the suits off, and they'd be doing other kinds of stuff in there. Basically, the Skylab suit was basically the A7-LB suit that we flew for Apollo 15, 16, an 17. We wore that same suit for Skylab Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since they didn't wear it once they got up there, you were just involved with working with them on training on the launch portion and the return portion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Yes, basically that's so. They wore a garment that they called an in-flight cover garment, ICG, I believe it was called, a Teflon-coated garment. It was quite heavy. We had to make sure that that equipment was available to them and any other support equipment that they needed. But suits were used primarily in the command module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Apollo-Soyuz, did you participate in that program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 35.944258858546696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Yes. I worked, I think it was the second Skylab flight with Al [Alan L.] Bean [Jr.] and Owen [K.] Garriott and with Jack [R.] Lousma. I worked that particular flight, and that was a different trainer altogether. That was over in Building 5 also. Building Five changed a lot during those days. There were many different kinds of trainers that were put in that mock-up over the years. We did a lot of training, command module training, training of sorts in Skylab, though they weren't wearing suits in there. They'd have the suits off, and they'd be doing other kinds of stuff in there. Basically, the Skylab suit was basically the A7-LB suit that we flew for Apollo 15, 16, an 17. We wore that same suit for Skylab Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since they didn't wear it once they got up there, you were just involved with working with them on training on the launch portion and the return portion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Yes, basically that's so. They wore a garment that they called an in-flight cover garment, ICG, I believe it was called, a Teflon-coated garment. It was quite heavy. We had to make sure that that equipment was available to them and any other support equipment that they needed. But suits were used primarily in the command module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Apollo-Soyuz, did you participate in that program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> I did participate in that program. I wasn't the lead tech on that program. One of the Air Force fellows that was with us, Frank Hernandez, he was the lead tech on Apollo-Soyuz Program, but there were three of us that worked together on that program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did that differ?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 31.04917650949633, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Yes, basically that's so. They wore a garment that they called an in-flight cover garment, ICG, I believe it was called, a Teflon-coated garment. It was quite heavy. We had to make sure that that equipment was available to them and any other support equipment that they needed. But suits were used primarily in the command module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Apollo-Soyuz, did you participate in that program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> I did participate in that program. I wasn't the lead tech on that program. One of the Air Force fellows that was with us, Frank Hernandez, he was the lead tech on Apollo-Soyuz Program, but there were three of us that worked together on that program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did that differ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> As I remember, we still had the three astronauts to work with: [Thomas P.] Stafford, [Vance D.] Brand, and Deke [Donald K.] Slayton. I do remember at that time that one of the Russian cosmonauts came in and wanted to get into a suit, and we put him into—I think it was either Tom Stafford's suit or Deke Slayton's suit at the time, and he had a translator with him. [Alexei Arkhipovich] Leonov—I can't remember his full name. Anyway, he came in. He was the Russian commander of Apollo-Soyuz, and we put him in a suit. Then Tom was supposed to get in one of their suits when he went over to Russia. I don't know if he ever did or not. It was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel about working with the Russians at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 33.38797389944037, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> I did participate in that program. I wasn't the lead tech on that program. One of the Air Force fellows that was with us, Frank Hernandez, he was the lead tech on Apollo-Soyuz Program, but there were three of us that worked together on that program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did that differ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> As I remember, we still had the three astronauts to work with: [Thomas P.] Stafford, [Vance D.] Brand, and Deke [Donald K.] Slayton. I do remember at that time that one of the Russian cosmonauts came in and wanted to get into a suit, and we put him into—I think it was either Tom Stafford's suit or Deke Slayton's suit at the time, and he had a translator with him. [Alexei Arkhipovich] Leonov—I can't remember his full name. Anyway, he came in. He was the Russian commander of Apollo-Soyuz, and we put him in a suit. Then Tom was supposed to get in one of their suits when he went over to Russia. I don't know if he ever did or not. It was interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel about working with the Russians at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> Well, it was a new experience. We didn't have too much contact with them, because we just saw them on rare occasions. I got more experience with them during the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was a long span of time between the Apollo-Soyuz and Shuttle. What did you do during that period of time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00520:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> No. I think they all did a good job with what they had. They were all receptive to improvements on the suit. They got a lot of feedback from our engineers. A lot of our engineers were involved in suit changes, improvements on the suits, that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When Apollo 11 landed on the moon, where were you and what were you thinking at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> As I remember, I was home that day waiting in anticipation, like everybody else. I didn't work Apollo 11. I was glued to my TV, just like I think everybody else was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you first started with the Navy back at the beginning of your career, would you ever have imagined where it would lead you and what you would be involved with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "R> No, not really. I went into the Navy with the goal of going to submarine school, and that didn't work out, so I ended up in Hospital Corps school, and I worked in pediatrics, newborn nursery, until a Navy buddy of mine, George Bates, convinced me that we needed to get the hell out of Great Lakes and go to the School of Aviation Medicine down in Pensacola, Florida, because we were working port and starboard, which means every other night we were pulling duty, night duty.\\n\\n So we both applied for the school and got the school and went down to the School of Aviation Medicine and went through the twelve, sixteen weeks of School of Aviation Medicine. Then I worked in the eye clinic for a while, and George worked over at the centrifuge, and then I went to work in low-pressure chambers.\\n\\n So here came NASA down, looking for chamber techs, and that's how. But I had no earthly idea [what I was going to do]. I was tending bar part time at the O Club and the BOQ. [Laughter] I was getting out of the Navy. So I went to work as a bartender at a country club, and here come a letter from NASA. That's how it all got started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We thank you so much for coming down to talk to us. It's been wonderful."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00268:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 26, "return_to_go": 91.48566641490898, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. On St. Paddy’s Day, my father’s mother, Florence Fogerty, would be pleased to know that we’re doing this on St. Paddy’s Day, if she were still with us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. We appreciate it.\\n\\n I wanted to ask you, in the last interview when we spoke, you mentioned that you were actually told by George [W. S.] Abbey and [Richard H.] Dick Truly that you were going to command the return-to-flight mission, but you were told that you couldn’t actually tell anyone this information. What was your reaction when you heard this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was absolutely thrilled that I was entrusted with that mission. I think every member of the Astronaut Office, probably without exception, wanted to be on that flight, so I was thrilled with it. The fact that I couldn’t tell people about it or speak about it publicly, any concerns about that were dwarfed by the enthusiasm that I had, knowing that this gift was in my pocket now. I knew that, of course, until something’s announced, it can be changed, and so that was in the back of my mind. But it wasn’t an overriding concern; once we had the crew put together, as I think we talked about, with Dick [Richard O.] Covey coming in to fill the slot that was left when Roy [D.] Bridges went back to the Air Force, and “Pinky” [George D.] Nelson was invited back from the University of Washington [Seattle, Washington] to round out our crew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk a little bit about the crew relationship? I’ve actually seen videotape of your crew in orbit, and you guys were wearing Hawaiian shirts. Somebody was surfing I believe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk a little about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00268:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 100.4125469207673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any major questions that the reporters would often ask you? When we talked about the STS-7 mission, they were asking Sally [K.] Ride all these gendered questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, clearly, “Do you think you’re ready? Do you think that the problems have been fixed? What gives you confidence that the problems have been fixed?”\\n\\n I don’t know if I’d mentioned it before, but Dick Truly, at the time Associate Administrator for Space Flight, Code M, he gave me a standing invitation to attend any decision-making meeting involving senior management as it related to preparations for STS-26. I think that was an unusual invitation. I don’t know if it was ever done before in the Shuttle Program or since. But what that gave me was the opportunity to gain confidence in the process.\\n\\n I would fly over to Marshall Space Flight Center [Huntsville, Alabama], and the senior management council, which was Admiral Truly and J.R. [James R.] Thompson and Aaron Cohen and the program manager for the solid rocket boosters and so forth, sitting around the table, “Should we test the solid rocket motors this way or that way? What’s the latest on the testing?” So when all was said and done, I had the confidence in the fixes that had been made and I had confidence in the team of people that had made those decisions. I have suggested, although perhaps this suggestion wasn’t needed, but I’ve suggested to current Associate Administrator Bill [William F.] Readdy that Eileen [M.] Collins would benefit from such an invitation, and I mentioned it to Eileen also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you’ve had an opportunity to speak with both of them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any lessons learned that you haven’t passed on, that you think should be passed on about this return-to-flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00268:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 43.318393799999996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Only a few months after your flight, you actually decided to leave NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I was forty-seven years old, approaching my forty-eighth birthday, and I knew I wouldn’t do this for the rest of my life. So I was very conscious about being past the age of fifty and trying to develop a new career. So it was a very conscious thought that revolved around my age. In fact, I had made the decision to retire before our last big press conference, but I decided not to mention that in the press conference, because I thought that would distract from what the press conference was all about. But I also decided that if someone asked me, that I would respond, and someone at the press conference said, “Are you planning on flying again?” and I said, “No.” So the next day, we had our video opportunities with the three morning shows,\\n\\n Today Show\\n\\n ,\\n\\n Good Morning America\\n\\n , and I forget the—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it’s the\\n\\n Early Show\\n\\n , or\\n\\n Morning Show\\n\\n ."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whatever. And I remember Jane Pauley, who was the host of the\\n\\n Today Show\\n\\n at the time, in the process of this interview said, “And Captain Hauck, we understand that you’ve decided to retire.”\\n\\n So I think I’m probably one of the few people who was able to announce on national television that I was on the job market. [Laughs] You can’t buy that kind of publicity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk to me a little bit about your work with the Navy? You actually went into their Space Systems Division."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00268:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t work with NASA, in this position, very closely at all, but I have worked with NASA on a pro bono basis mostly. The distinction that I want to make is that as insurers, we don’t deal with NASA, because they don’t insure. The taxpayer provides that insurance. But I’ve been able to stay in close contact with NASA in an advisory role over the years. I’ve chaired several studies. I chaired a group to give an independent look at the preparations for the second Hubble [Space Telescope] servicing mission. I chaired a couple of National Research Council studies for NASA, one on the vulnerability of the Space Shuttle to orbital debris, and the other one on what measurements need to be done robotically on Mars before humans go to Mars. That one was completed just two years ago and apparently is still being of some use to NASA. The name of the report is Safe on Mars.\\n\\n I’m currently on what’s called a graybeard panel, an old-guy panel to try to help NASA as they have developed the next-generation reusable launch vehicle, which now is morphing into the Project Constellation, I guess. So even though I professionally don’t have a direct relationship with NASA, my ties with NASA are still pretty strong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m glad to hear that you still maintain that contact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s good for me, and I hope it’s helpful to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before I close out today, I just had a couple of general questions for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were working for NASA, is there any point at which you could look back and say, “This was the most challenging milestone for me personally.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00268:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t screw up. [Laughs] I don’t know, I just worked very hard and I was very fortunate. I was rewarded by always being given good assignments and working with a good team that answered the mail, I think. I don’t know, I think my strength is probably in flying ability, but also perhaps in a leadership role in bringing people together and working through issues, but I can’t point to anything in particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything you think we might have overlooked in your previous oral history or today that you wanted to talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think this has been pretty thorough. Obviously we’ve got reams of files that I could review and go through, but I think we’ve touched on issues that would be of interest and may be of some significance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thank you again for your time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I enjoyed it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00091:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 91.26788549996162, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It should be. I’m very pleased to see, reading in the space press, that the last Space Station Research Conference was so well attended. People are so enthusiastic finally about the Space Station as a research venue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The one in July that just happened, that Research and Development conference?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it in Boston? I think it was in Boston in July."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I’d been to the first few of those, and they were lackluster, but apparently now it really looks like the potential customer community is getting enthusiastic. Not a moment too soon. You’re right though that anything that keeps the space program vigorous and healthy and active is going to be good for all of us. A rising tide really will lift all boats and we will get more visibility and more credibility and have more responsibility. Not as much as we want, but more than we would have otherwise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about the National Space Biomedical Research Institute [NSBRI] and that relationship. You mentioned it in one of the other oral histories. From what I’ve read, in ’96 NASA, knowing that they didn’t have the resources to deal with all the medical challenges, created a cooperative agreement with this nonprofit. Is it housed with Baylor [College of Medicine, Center for Space Medicine, Houston, Texas]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00091:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 22, "return_to_go": 101.40876166662402, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it in Boston? I think it was in Boston in July."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I’d been to the first few of those, and they were lackluster, but apparently now it really looks like the potential customer community is getting enthusiastic. Not a moment too soon. You’re right though that anything that keeps the space program vigorous and healthy and active is going to be good for all of us. A rising tide really will lift all boats and we will get more visibility and more credibility and have more responsibility. Not as much as we want, but more than we would have otherwise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about the National Space Biomedical Research Institute [NSBRI] and that relationship. You mentioned it in one of the other oral histories. From what I’ve read, in ’96 NASA, knowing that they didn’t have the resources to deal with all the medical challenges, created a cooperative agreement with this nonprofit. Is it housed with Baylor [College of Medicine, Center for Space Medicine, Houston, Texas]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you talk about that relationship as far as with the Human Research Program, since it sounds to me like it’s more in line with what you’re trying to do? How does NASA work with them?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00091:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 93, "return_to_go": 118.56235584000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was rough for a little while, but we’re all dedicated and mature individuals. Nobody liked it being adversarial, and we’ve moved beyond that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good. You mentioned that the move from building the Space Station, the assembly mentality to the utilization mentality—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I didn’t repeat that, but for the record, that’s a big deal. Going from the construction phase to the utilization phase really has changed the way the Space Station is regarded and is used. I give full credit to Mike Suffredini and his group and Julie Robinson for embracing that change in paradigm and really doing whatever they can to make utilization the priority on the Station, even though I’m unhappy that we’re not the most important utilization aspect of that process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They have that Revolutionize ISS for Science and Exploration team, the RISE team. Have you been involved in any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I hear about things like that but I really have enough other things to do. I’m delighted when somebody else takes on those responsibilities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about the one-year mission and some of those aspects of what’s going on in research with the one-year mission. You’ve been involved in some of that. If you want to talk about your involvement in it. You mentioned before that the one-year mission—and because of your current position it’s interesting—is like going back to Phase I with the Shuttle-Mir [Program] because of our relationship with Russia and that cooperation. If you want to talk about that mission and what the hope is, the research that’s going to be done, and then of course with the twins and the twin research that’s going on because of that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00056:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.59049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have known Peg for a long time, and she is pretty amazing. But it’s pretty cool seeing the Space Station utilized the way it is, and yes, I like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it’s exciting to hear all the things going on at Kennedy. Are there more things that you’d like to share with us today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, gosh. Man, let’s see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I have to think too, as a pilot you must be excited about all of the different ways that your Center can offer aerospace. Like you mentioned, from the flights that could come off of the Shuttle landing strip, and the Air Force plane. All that’s just right there in your backyard to go touch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s pretty cool, but I don’t get to fly it, that’s the problem. I have my own little 1978 [American Champion 8KCAB] Super Decathlon aerobatic aircraft that I keep at Merritt Island [Airport, Florida] that I go out and fly upside-down, and do loops and rolls, and have fun in on the weekends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take your own tour of the Center?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00056:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6561000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, gosh. Man, let’s see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I have to think too, as a pilot you must be excited about all of the different ways that your Center can offer aerospace. Like you mentioned, from the flights that could come off of the Shuttle landing strip, and the Air Force plane. All that’s just right there in your backyard to go touch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s pretty cool, but I don’t get to fly it, that’s the problem. I have my own little 1978 [American Champion 8KCAB] Super Decathlon aerobatic aircraft that I keep at Merritt Island [Airport, Florida] that I go out and fly upside-down, and do loops and rolls, and have fun in on the weekends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take your own tour of the Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you can’t fly in the restricted airspace. The industrial area is in the restricted airspace, but you can make a low pass down the Shuttle Landing Facility, and you can fly over the Visitors Center and circle it and see the Rocket Garden. When I have folks come visit I will take them up there and fly them over it so they can see it, and they think it’s pretty cool. And when you are flying down the Shuttle Landing Facility you can look across and you can see the VAB and the launchpads, and the new mobile launcher being built. It’s a pretty good tour that I give."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Well, I’m sure it’s good for you as well to be able to see all of that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00056:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7290000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s pretty cool, but I don’t get to fly it, that’s the problem. I have my own little 1978 [American Champion 8KCAB] Super Decathlon aerobatic aircraft that I keep at Merritt Island [Airport, Florida] that I go out and fly upside-down, and do loops and rolls, and have fun in on the weekends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take your own tour of the Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you can’t fly in the restricted airspace. The industrial area is in the restricted airspace, but you can make a low pass down the Shuttle Landing Facility, and you can fly over the Visitors Center and circle it and see the Rocket Garden. When I have folks come visit I will take them up there and fly them over it so they can see it, and they think it’s pretty cool. And when you are flying down the Shuttle Landing Facility you can look across and you can see the VAB and the launchpads, and the new mobile launcher being built. It’s a pretty good tour that I give."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Well, I’m sure it’s good for you as well to be able to see all of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I can’t fly, I don’t know what I’m going to do. Yes, I need that, and I’m a pilot more than anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t tell the people at Kennedy—they think that you’re the Center Director. Well, thank you so much for coming in."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00056:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you can’t fly in the restricted airspace. The industrial area is in the restricted airspace, but you can make a low pass down the Shuttle Landing Facility, and you can fly over the Visitors Center and circle it and see the Rocket Garden. When I have folks come visit I will take them up there and fly them over it so they can see it, and they think it’s pretty cool. And when you are flying down the Shuttle Landing Facility you can look across and you can see the VAB and the launchpads, and the new mobile launcher being built. It’s a pretty good tour that I give."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Well, I’m sure it’s good for you as well to be able to see all of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I can’t fly, I don’t know what I’m going to do. Yes, I need that, and I’m a pilot more than anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t tell the people at Kennedy—they think that you’re the Center Director. Well, thank you so much for coming in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. I think we have a very exciting future in front of us, and I think we are well positioned for it. It’s been a really hard transition. It’s been taxing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And full. I used the word “grueling,” but there was just so much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00056:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I can’t fly, I don’t know what I’m going to do. Yes, I need that, and I’m a pilot more than anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t tell the people at Kennedy—they think that you’re the Center Director. Well, thank you so much for coming in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. I think we have a very exciting future in front of us, and I think we are well positioned for it. It’s been a really hard transition. It’s been taxing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And full. I used the word “grueling,” but there was just so much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it seems to never end. But then you look back and you say, “Wow, that’s amazing. We did that.” I can’t wait for SLS to fly, and use that Charlie Bolden quote again. “I knew it would feel good. I didn’t know it would feel this good.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Well, we wish you the best of luck."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00056:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. I think we have a very exciting future in front of us, and I think we are well positioned for it. It’s been a really hard transition. It’s been taxing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And full. I used the word “grueling,” but there was just so much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it seems to never end. But then you look back and you say, “Wow, that’s amazing. We did that.” I can’t wait for SLS to fly, and use that Charlie Bolden quote again. “I knew it would feel good. I didn’t know it would feel this good.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Well, we wish you the best of luck."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you again."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.784949572765676, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they weren't so much of an influence in the astronomy and space flight part, but my father, being a civil engineer, instilled in me the importance of learning about math and science in general."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any heroes at the time when you were growing up? You mentioned you enjoyed science fiction. Were there particular writers that you enjoyed reading more than others, and then also real-life individuals? You mentioned Dr. Wernher von Braun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, the only real motivator person that I'd actually had the opportunity to contact directly was Dr. von Braun, because after reading his articles in Collier's and other places, I sent him a letter saying I was interested in space and all that sort of thing, and he actually sent me an autographed photograph, which I had totally unexpected. That was while he was still part of the Army at the Redstone Arsenal [Alabama], before the creation of NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During your college career, obviously it was during the sixties, a lot of civil unrest and so forth. Did you find, because of your race, any obstacles in your education career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think that I really had any overt obstacles in my college education. Of course, African Americans were like 1 percent of the engineering students there, so we were relatively rare, but I never saw any instances of discrimination that prevented me from doing whatever I wanted to do there, on the part of either professors or other students."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned your coming to the Naval Research Laboratory. You received a scholarship or you worked as a co-op student or an intern?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.316610636406306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, the only real motivator person that I'd actually had the opportunity to contact directly was Dr. von Braun, because after reading his articles in Collier's and other places, I sent him a letter saying I was interested in space and all that sort of thing, and he actually sent me an autographed photograph, which I had totally unexpected. That was while he was still part of the Army at the Redstone Arsenal [Alabama], before the creation of NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During your college career, obviously it was during the sixties, a lot of civil unrest and so forth. Did you find, because of your race, any obstacles in your education career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think that I really had any overt obstacles in my college education. Of course, African Americans were like 1 percent of the engineering students there, so we were relatively rare, but I never saw any instances of discrimination that prevented me from doing whatever I wanted to do there, on the part of either professors or other students."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned your coming to the Naval Research Laboratory. You received a scholarship or you worked as a co-op student or an intern?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a postdoctoral appointment when I came to NRL, which was funded by the National Science Foundation at the time, and that was my first real chance to have hands-on participation in space science, because NRL was one of the few organizations that was directly involved in the space program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the early experiments work that you did relating to the space program prior to Apollo?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 27.018456262673674, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think that I really had any overt obstacles in my college education. Of course, African Americans were like 1 percent of the engineering students there, so we were relatively rare, but I never saw any instances of discrimination that prevented me from doing whatever I wanted to do there, on the part of either professors or other students."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned your coming to the Naval Research Laboratory. You received a scholarship or you worked as a co-op student or an intern?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a postdoctoral appointment when I came to NRL, which was funded by the National Science Foundation at the time, and that was my first real chance to have hands-on participation in space science, because NRL was one of the few organizations that was directly involved in the space program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the early experiments work that you did relating to the space program prior to Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of our work was done with sounding rockets in those days, and sounding rockets have the advantage that you can build something on a relatively short time scale, a relatively small expense, and get results from it quickly. So one of the projects that I came to do as part of my postdoctoral appointment was what was then a hot topic, which was look for molecular hydrogen in interstellar space, which could be detected only by the use of ultraviolet spectroscopy, and therefore required rocket flights above the atmosphere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On these sounding rockets, can you relate any interesting incidents with failures, either during the launches themselves or recovery of the payloads?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 28.909395847415194, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a postdoctoral appointment when I came to NRL, which was funded by the National Science Foundation at the time, and that was my first real chance to have hands-on participation in space science, because NRL was one of the few organizations that was directly involved in the space program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the early experiments work that you did relating to the space program prior to Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of our work was done with sounding rockets in those days, and sounding rockets have the advantage that you can build something on a relatively short time scale, a relatively small expense, and get results from it quickly. So one of the projects that I came to do as part of my postdoctoral appointment was what was then a hot topic, which was look for molecular hydrogen in interstellar space, which could be detected only by the use of ultraviolet spectroscopy, and therefore required rocket flights above the atmosphere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On these sounding rockets, can you relate any interesting incidents with failures, either during the launches themselves or recovery of the payloads?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, as was also true of the film The Right Stuff, where the astronauts were shown examples of the rockets they were supposed to ride blowing up on a launch pad or early in flight, there were quite a few mishaps even in the sounding rockets, so either the rocket not getting to sufficiently high altitude, or the parachute not working, or the attitude-control system that needs to point the instrument at the target of interest not working properly. So usually it took two or three tries to get one fully successful result."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Leading up to the work on Apollo, can you basically describe how you came into working on the camera that was used on Apollo 16?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.75959879191187, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's really an electronic camera. It's a type of camera we call electrographic, which uses film, but is also an electronic imaging device. We call it electrographic because the imaging device produces electrons, just like in a videocamera. But instead of being recorded by CCD [Charged Coupling Device] or other electronic imaging device, it actually hits the film and is recorded directly as darkening of the film, and it's more quantitative and also a lot more sensitive than direct photography. And unlike the electronic imaging devices, the film does have to be recovered and brought back in order to get the data."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a little frustrating for you, knowing that, unlike some of the instruments where they could actually monitor the data that they were gathering immediately, you had to pretty much wait until they came back before you knew if your instrument worked or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To some extent, but we knew that ahead of time, and that had always been true in other flights, including sounding rocket flights, that we wouldn't know for sure what we got until we processed the film."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this a considerable time after the mission completed before you could pretty much bring closure to this point in your life, knowing that the results came through, the film was processed, and you could start analyzing the data?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was sort of an apprehensive time, because it was like a couple of weeks between the time that they returned and the time that the film was actually processed by the people at Johnson Space Center, so I wasn't there at the time and would not have been able to participate in it even if I was there. But once we found out that the images were good, we were certainly quite relieved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the results? In laymen's terms for some of our readers of these interviews, what were some of the results from the camera, the highlights, that you found?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.843998657679855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To some extent, but we knew that ahead of time, and that had always been true in other flights, including sounding rocket flights, that we wouldn't know for sure what we got until we processed the film."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this a considerable time after the mission completed before you could pretty much bring closure to this point in your life, knowing that the results came through, the film was processed, and you could start analyzing the data?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was sort of an apprehensive time, because it was like a couple of weeks between the time that they returned and the time that the film was actually processed by the people at Johnson Space Center, so I wasn't there at the time and would not have been able to participate in it even if I was there. But once we found out that the images were good, we were certainly quite relieved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the results? In laymen's terms for some of our readers of these interviews, what were some of the results from the camera, the highlights, that you found?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most immediately obvious and spectacular results were really for the Earth observations, because this was the first time that the Earth had been photographed from a distance in ultraviolet light, so that you could see the full extent of the hydrogen atmosphere, the polar auroris and what we call the tropical airglow belt. All of these were revealed in pictorial form for the first time, so that's something you don't have to wait for data analysis to show people.\\n\\n We also obtained UV [ultraviolet] images of stars, including the large Magellanic Cloud, the nearest nearby galaxy, but these were less immediately different from things that were done from sounding rockets and from low Earth orbit, at least in terms of the general public."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were any of the results used from the Apollo 16 instrument later dusted off and compared to some of the subsequent missions where this instrument was flown? Is there a similar instrument aboard the Hubble [Space Telescope]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.75994328899843, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there's not on the Hubble, because the Hubble is a much more specialized, high-powered telescope with a very narrrow field of view, whereas our cameras are really more survey instruments with wide fields of view, so you can actually map a large area of the sky, or take a picture of the whole Earth, or whatever, so it's really different kind of science than most of the other NASA missions have been, including our own missions in low Earth orbit, like on the Space Shuttle [STS-39] in 1991 and the ARGOS [Advanced Research and Global Observation Satellite] satellite, which we just launched this year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that this was also flown on a later Skylab mission. How did the instrument differ on the Skylab flight, as opposed to that that was used during Apollo 16?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the Skylab flight, the primary objective was to observe Comet Kohoutek, which was prominent during the time of the mission, and since it was in the Skylab space station, all we really needed was the basic camera. We didn't need the stand, the tripod, and the pointing system that we had on the Apollo mission, where it was pretty much a stand-alone instrument. So the backup camera from the Apollo mission was used for Skylab, but not the whole tripod assembly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why wasn't this camera flown on subsequent Apollo missions? Why was it just on Apollo 16?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, we would consider ourselves lucky to have had even one opportunity because of the fact that the highest priority of the Apollo missions was on lunar science specifically, and many of the lunar scientists felt that something that's looking at the Earth or looking at the stars is lower priority then, in terms of the uniqueness of it, compared to lunar science. But we justified it because of the unique perspective of the Moon for doing astronomy, in comparison to low Earth orbit. But we did not have a second chance, that's true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And going into the development of the camera for that mission, you knew that ahead of time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.066603654442698, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the Skylab flight, the primary objective was to observe Comet Kohoutek, which was prominent during the time of the mission, and since it was in the Skylab space station, all we really needed was the basic camera. We didn't need the stand, the tripod, and the pointing system that we had on the Apollo mission, where it was pretty much a stand-alone instrument. So the backup camera from the Apollo mission was used for Skylab, but not the whole tripod assembly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why wasn't this camera flown on subsequent Apollo missions? Why was it just on Apollo 16?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, we would consider ourselves lucky to have had even one opportunity because of the fact that the highest priority of the Apollo missions was on lunar science specifically, and many of the lunar scientists felt that something that's looking at the Earth or looking at the stars is lower priority then, in terms of the uniqueness of it, compared to lunar science. But we justified it because of the unique perspective of the Moon for doing astronomy, in comparison to low Earth orbit. But we did not have a second chance, that's true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And going into the development of the camera for that mission, you knew that ahead of time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that in any way influence the design of it, what you wanted to accomplish at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 25.62955961604744, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, we would consider ourselves lucky to have had even one opportunity because of the fact that the highest priority of the Apollo missions was on lunar science specifically, and many of the lunar scientists felt that something that's looking at the Earth or looking at the stars is lower priority then, in terms of the uniqueness of it, compared to lunar science. But we justified it because of the unique perspective of the Moon for doing astronomy, in comparison to low Earth orbit. But we did not have a second chance, that's true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And going into the development of the camera for that mission, you knew that ahead of time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that in any way influence the design of it, what you wanted to accomplish at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because even if we had a reflight, it would have been basically the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back with Apollo 16 and the instrument flown on Skylab, and then you had the same or similar instrument flown on several Shuttle missions. How did those differ from the previous missions, particularly the Shuttle missions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.255066240052713, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that in any way influence the design of it, what you wanted to accomplish at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because even if we had a reflight, it would have been basically the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back with Apollo 16 and the instrument flown on Skylab, and then you had the same or similar instrument flown on several Shuttle missions. How did those differ from the previous missions, particularly the Shuttle missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Shuttle mission, being in low Earth orbit, had somewhat different objectives than the Apollo mission. Also, on the Shuttle flight, which was on STS-39 in the spring of 1991, we had two cameras mounted on a pointing system so that we could obtain pictures in two different colors of ultraviolet light at the same time. But aside from that, it was basically the same instrument technology as used on the Apollo and in the sounding rocket flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you use some of the data from the earlier missions in your science for the Shuttle missions as well, and was that useful?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 29.17229582228079, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because even if we had a reflight, it would have been basically the same."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back with Apollo 16 and the instrument flown on Skylab, and then you had the same or similar instrument flown on several Shuttle missions. How did those differ from the previous missions, particularly the Shuttle missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Shuttle mission, being in low Earth orbit, had somewhat different objectives than the Apollo mission. Also, on the Shuttle flight, which was on STS-39 in the spring of 1991, we had two cameras mounted on a pointing system so that we could obtain pictures in two different colors of ultraviolet light at the same time. But aside from that, it was basically the same instrument technology as used on the Apollo and in the sounding rocket flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you use some of the data from the earlier missions in your science for the Shuttle missions as well, and was that useful?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because it gave us a baseline of what to expect in terms of instrument calibrations. We could look at some stars that were the same in the two missions, and use those to compare the sensitivities of the two instruments, what we call inflight calibration. And also the fact that we had done something similar gave us a better idea of what to expect in the later flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that on the Shuttle flights, starting with the first one, STS-39, that they no longer used film, but these CCDs. Can you expand a little bit more on the differences between the film versus CCD, the advantages, the disadvantages?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.37320471886517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because it gave us a baseline of what to expect in terms of instrument calibrations. We could look at some stars that were the same in the two missions, and use those to compare the sensitivities of the two instruments, what we call inflight calibration. And also the fact that we had done something similar gave us a better idea of what to expect in the later flights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that on the Shuttle flights, starting with the first one, STS-39, that they no longer used film, but these CCDs. Can you expand a little bit more on the differences between the film versus CCD, the advantages, the disadvantages?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, the Shuttle flights did use film, just like the Apollo mission, but what has changed recently was the long-duration, unmanned satellite mission called ARGOS, which stands for Advanced Research and Global Observation Satellite, which was launched by the Air Force in February of this year [1999], for a minimum of one-year mission duration.\\n\\n Now, for that kind of mission, we definitely need an electronic readout device to send data down remotely to the ground because of the fact that you don't have astronauts there to bring it back, you don't have the Shuttle to bring it back, and so the satellite's up there permanently. You have to radio the data down, just like the Hubble Space Telescope does. The basic distinction is that the charge couple device takes the place of the film to record the electrons, so that you get a signal that can be processed by telemetry and sent down to the ground as an image, just like in the HST [Hubble Space Telescope]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I suppose one of the advantages of that is that you have instantaneous results, you don't have to worry about retrieving the film and then processing it, and so forth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And also it's more quantitative, because with the advances in computer technology, we can convert CCD images to light intensity much more readily than we could convert film images into light intensity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The instrument, as it's deployed on the Moon, it's basically housed in the descent stage on the lunar module, and then hauled up by the astronauts?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.46074656650021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And also it's more quantitative, because with the advances in computer technology, we can convert CCD images to light intensity much more readily than we could convert film images into light intensity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The instrument, as it's deployed on the Moon, it's basically housed in the descent stage on the lunar module, and then hauled up by the astronauts?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. It had to be in a protective bag to keep the inside of it dry, because one of the problems we had in all of these cameras is that since they are designed to be open to the vacuum of space, we have to protect them from being contaminated when they're on the ground, and, in particular, water vapor is a big problem, so we have to put them in dry bags, make sure they're purged with dry nitrogen and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier this week, we were at the [National] Air and Space Museum attending a conference, and we noticed one of these instruments on display there, and they had a sign next to it, describing it as a backup instrument. How did that come about, bringing it out to display? Because I don't remember seeing that a while back. I don't know if that was relatively recent or not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, Dr. David DeVorkin at the Air and Space Museum had requested the backup of the Apollo camera as a possible display item. The backup unit was used for the actual display on the lunar module exhibit at the Air and Space Museum. It turns out that the film transport, the actual film transport that's on that display model, is the actual flight one from Apollo 16, which was brought back there by the astronauts. We don't advertise that to the public, because we don't want somebody to steal it and try to sell it for a million dollars, just because it had been to the Moon and back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they had this in storage, the backup, for a number of years here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.84527396277801, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. It had to be in a protective bag to keep the inside of it dry, because one of the problems we had in all of these cameras is that since they are designed to be open to the vacuum of space, we have to protect them from being contaminated when they're on the ground, and, in particular, water vapor is a big problem, so we have to put them in dry bags, make sure they're purged with dry nitrogen and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier this week, we were at the [National] Air and Space Museum attending a conference, and we noticed one of these instruments on display there, and they had a sign next to it, describing it as a backup instrument. How did that come about, bringing it out to display? Because I don't remember seeing that a while back. I don't know if that was relatively recent or not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, Dr. David DeVorkin at the Air and Space Museum had requested the backup of the Apollo camera as a possible display item. The backup unit was used for the actual display on the lunar module exhibit at the Air and Space Museum. It turns out that the film transport, the actual film transport that's on that display model, is the actual flight one from Apollo 16, which was brought back there by the astronauts. We don't advertise that to the public, because we don't want somebody to steal it and try to sell it for a million dollars, just because it had been to the Moon and back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they had this in storage, the backup, for a number of years here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right. The actual camera from the backup module was used in Skylab, so we had to remake a model of the camera for the display at the Air and Space Museum."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The only difference then was that instead of the tripod when it was on Skylab, it was attached to—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 37.60585995864223, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, Dr. David DeVorkin at the Air and Space Museum had requested the backup of the Apollo camera as a possible display item. The backup unit was used for the actual display on the lunar module exhibit at the Air and Space Museum. It turns out that the film transport, the actual film transport that's on that display model, is the actual flight one from Apollo 16, which was brought back there by the astronauts. We don't advertise that to the public, because we don't want somebody to steal it and try to sell it for a million dollars, just because it had been to the Moon and back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they had this in storage, the backup, for a number of years here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right. The actual camera from the backup module was used in Skylab, so we had to remake a model of the camera for the display at the Air and Space Museum."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The only difference then was that instead of the tripod when it was on Skylab, it was attached to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To an airlock."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things that we were talking about earlier was, you attended this conference or seminar that was held yesterday at American University [Washington, DC], and we were talking about your feelings of manned or robotic versus unmanned, human space flight. I was wondering if you could share what your feelings are and the differences between them, and what one can accomplish versus the other, and if you have a preference of one over the other."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 36.22873328738025, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right. The actual camera from the backup module was used in Skylab, so we had to remake a model of the camera for the display at the Air and Space Museum."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The only difference then was that instead of the tripod when it was on Skylab, it was attached to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To an airlock."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things that we were talking about earlier was, you attended this conference or seminar that was held yesterday at American University [Washington, DC], and we were talking about your feelings of manned or robotic versus unmanned, human space flight. I was wondering if you could share what your feelings are and the differences between them, and what one can accomplish versus the other, and if you have a preference of one over the other."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's one of the things that's changed a lot over the years with the advances in technology, because one of the justifications for the Space Shuttle back in the seventies was that it would provide human presence for carrying out experiments in low Earth orbit that would not be practical to do robotically with unmanned satellites.\\n\\n However, with the advances of computer technology, we've seen a shift over the years in that many of the experiments that originally would have only been practical with human presence are now practical to do remotely with robotics. For example, the Mars Pathfinder was a good example of how miniaturized electronics can do almost as much in a hundred-million-dollar mission as a billion-dollar Viking mission of 1976.\\n\\n There are still some things that really require the human presence, but in the area of astronomy, the shift has been largely toward the robotic techniques, and that's also evident in our changing over from film to the CCD recorder, so we can have it in an unmanned satellite, long-duration mission, as opposed to short-duration missions like the Space Shuttle and Apollo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were working on the Apollo Program, were you aware at all of the significance of the work that you were doing, beyond just its scientific return, but more because you were being a participant in the race to the Moon and just being involved with the Apollo Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.83818577674708, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So far, the only one who has actually established as a career is the one who is the captain in the Air Force. The others are either in graduate school or still in college. But I think they all acknowledge the help that I might have given them in the process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your long career with the NRL and the work that you've been doing in the fields of astronomy and space science, what do you feel has been your most significant accomplishment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess the Apollo camera on the Moon, in terms of its overall results, would be one, and also we had a sounding rocket flight in 1970, which was before Apollo, which made the first detection of molecular hydrogen in interstellar space. So those two, I would say, would be the most significant single events.\\n\\n Of course, we've had a lot of other projects in the interim. We've had many sounding rocket flights. We've looked at comets Halley, Kohoutek, and West, and we have the current ARGOS satellite, which has the potential for more data return than everything else we've done altogether, assuming everything works properly for the three-year mission. But I would say those two probably would be the ones that, to me, stand out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why were they rewarding or basically you acknowledge them as your significant accomplishments? What, personally and professionally, made those more important than others?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess simply because they were first of a kind in both cases. Not that they were necessarily more significant in terms of the overall field of science, but just that they were a first of a kind. Of course, everything is superseded by more advanced technology, because certainly nothing that I have done would compare with Hubble Space Telescope or anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned molecular hydrogen. For those such as me that aren't really informed on the significance of that find, can you explain a little bit more about what that means and why it's significant?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.429241252256649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but just for the gyros, not for instrument changes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What projects are you currently involved with? I think you mentioned earlier that funding's been an issue in proposals, but are you any involved in any current activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The main activity right now is the ARGOS satellite, which was launched on February 23 [1999], and that's going to be a long-duration mission with a one- to three-year lifetime, and just the mission operations and data analysis for that will keep us very busy for quite a while. Now, of course, we will still be on the outlook for opportunities to propose missions beyond that, but unlike in the past where we were almost always trying to build something new while we were still looking at data from something old, I think the next few years will be sort of distinct, in that we won't really have any new flight projects in the works for a while. That doesn't mean that there aren't opportunities for student participation, because we do have actually a community outreach activity similar to the Moonlink Program, in which the students will actually look at our data and work with it as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved at all with the Clementine [also known as the Deep Space Program Science Experiment] and the Lunar Prospector mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not directly, in terms of actually participating in the science. The Clementine was actually built here at the Naval Research Laboratory, but it was done by the Naval Center for Space Technology as a contractor to the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization, so we did not have any chance here in the Space Science Division to participate in that.\\n\\n The Lunar Prospector mission was strictly in the area of community outreach activities and education. One of our students did a highly rated project in the DC City Science Fair, which was last weekend, in which he demonstrated a method of extracting water from frozen soil at the lunar north and south poles, which was something he did in a vacuum chamber here in our laboratory."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that work, the process?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.6410385830329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not directly, in terms of actually participating in the science. The Clementine was actually built here at the Naval Research Laboratory, but it was done by the Naval Center for Space Technology as a contractor to the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization, so we did not have any chance here in the Space Science Division to participate in that.\\n\\n The Lunar Prospector mission was strictly in the area of community outreach activities and education. One of our students did a highly rated project in the DC City Science Fair, which was last weekend, in which he demonstrated a method of extracting water from frozen soil at the lunar north and south poles, which was something he did in a vacuum chamber here in our laboratory."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that work, the process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The idea was to put heaters in the frozen soil, which has ice in it, and as the vapor comes out, have it condense on a black plate, which is shaded from the sun, so that it radiates the space and stays very cold, so that the water vapor comes out and condenses as ice on the underside of this plate, so that after enough ice has been collected, astronauts can come and scrape it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Basically harvesting ice from the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take considerable amount of energy to heat the soil?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.934487314481, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The idea was to put heaters in the frozen soil, which has ice in it, and as the vapor comes out, have it condense on a black plate, which is shaded from the sun, so that it radiates the space and stays very cold, so that the water vapor comes out and condenses as ice on the underside of this plate, so that after enough ice has been collected, astronauts can come and scrape it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Basically harvesting ice from the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take considerable amount of energy to heat the soil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but energy is not really a problem on the Moon, because the sun is out all the time, and near the north and south poles, one could set up a solar panel in an area where the sun shines, and transmit that electricity to the area where you need to heat the soil that's in shadow. So really, the problem on the Moon is there's no readily accessible water or oxygen or hydrogen, which are really the most important things that you need to bring from Earth if you are going to be dependent on resources from the Earth, and that's, of course, very expensive. But sunlight is free on the Moon. You just need to bring solar panels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A while back I did a paper in which we had proposed an ultraviolot spectrograph on the poles of the Moon, the far side, particularly in one of the craters, so that there wouldn't be sunlight exposed at all. Do you know if there were any plans at one time to actually do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.816097016090001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take considerable amount of energy to heat the soil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but energy is not really a problem on the Moon, because the sun is out all the time, and near the north and south poles, one could set up a solar panel in an area where the sun shines, and transmit that electricity to the area where you need to heat the soil that's in shadow. So really, the problem on the Moon is there's no readily accessible water or oxygen or hydrogen, which are really the most important things that you need to bring from Earth if you are going to be dependent on resources from the Earth, and that's, of course, very expensive. But sunlight is free on the Moon. You just need to bring solar panels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A while back I did a paper in which we had proposed an ultraviolot spectrograph on the poles of the Moon, the far side, particularly in one of the craters, so that there wouldn't be sunlight exposed at all. Do you know if there were any plans at one time to actually do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There have been a lot of proposals. In fact, I even participated in a workshop on that at University of New Mexico in Albuquerque about five years ago, but there have been many studies along those lines, but so far no funding to build the hardware, simply because there really was no plan to return to the Moon until the Lunar Prospector mission this last year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back again to Apollo, what were your feelings on the abruptness of the missions, the fact that the later missions were canceled, I think the Apollo 19 or 20? They had plans of landing in Copernicus, I think one of the craters on the far side of the Moon, as well, and then all that went to the wayside. What are your feelings on why the Apollo Program stopped and why there wasn't a more aggressive post follow-up manned mission to the Moon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.649502489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There have been a lot of proposals. In fact, I even participated in a workshop on that at University of New Mexico in Albuquerque about five years ago, but there have been many studies along those lines, but so far no funding to build the hardware, simply because there really was no plan to return to the Moon until the Lunar Prospector mission this last year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back again to Apollo, what were your feelings on the abruptness of the missions, the fact that the later missions were canceled, I think the Apollo 19 or 20? They had plans of landing in Copernicus, I think one of the craters on the far side of the Moon, as well, and then all that went to the wayside. What are your feelings on why the Apollo Program stopped and why there wasn't a more aggressive post follow-up manned mission to the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess it had to do with the reason that it was done in the first place, which was to beat the Russians. Once the Russians were beaten, then the general public didn't see any reason to continue it, so that's really the reason why it was so abrupt. There was a very high level of activity until that objective was completed, but then once that objective was completed, it sort of passed away. Because lunar science was never really the primary objective of the Apollo Program, although a lot was done during that mission.\\n\\n Now that we have renewed scientific interest in the Moon, there might be justification for returning to the Moon with human beings to further explore it, in particular because, as in the case of Mars, there are some things you can't do with robots. But the only problem is that right now it's pretty well priority, because the Moon rates behind Mars in scientific priority right now, I would guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back at the overall science return from the Apollo Program, what are your feelings on the quality and the amount that was returned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The mission as a whole or just our experiment?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The mission as a whole, the program as a whole."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.49944721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess it had to do with the reason that it was done in the first place, which was to beat the Russians. Once the Russians were beaten, then the general public didn't see any reason to continue it, so that's really the reason why it was so abrupt. There was a very high level of activity until that objective was completed, but then once that objective was completed, it sort of passed away. Because lunar science was never really the primary objective of the Apollo Program, although a lot was done during that mission.\\n\\n Now that we have renewed scientific interest in the Moon, there might be justification for returning to the Moon with human beings to further explore it, in particular because, as in the case of Mars, there are some things you can't do with robots. But the only problem is that right now it's pretty well priority, because the Moon rates behind Mars in scientific priority right now, I would guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back at the overall science return from the Apollo Program, what are your feelings on the quality and the amount that was returned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The mission as a whole or just our experiment?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The mission as a whole, the program as a whole."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It certainly returned unique data, which could not have been obtained any other way. And the fact that we have had so much time to analyze the data since then at these lunar science conferences they have each year in Houston [Texas], now people have a much better idea of what they really should do next, and the Lunar Prospector was just the first of those things that they felt that we needed to do next, and now the Lunar Prospector has returned data that gives even more incentive to get back to doing some more lunar science. But just how it's going to rate in the overall mix of things, I don't know. I don't even know if Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin has that answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've certainly been with it since pretty much—many people refer to the sixties as kind of the Golden Age of unmanned exploration. Do you feel that's a fair assessment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.1104969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The mission as a whole or just our experiment?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The mission as a whole, the program as a whole."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It certainly returned unique data, which could not have been obtained any other way. And the fact that we have had so much time to analyze the data since then at these lunar science conferences they have each year in Houston [Texas], now people have a much better idea of what they really should do next, and the Lunar Prospector was just the first of those things that they felt that we needed to do next, and now the Lunar Prospector has returned data that gives even more incentive to get back to doing some more lunar science. But just how it's going to rate in the overall mix of things, I don't know. I don't even know if Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin has that answer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've certainly been with it since pretty much—many people refer to the sixties as kind of the Golden Age of unmanned exploration. Do you feel that's a fair assessment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think that actually things have improved a lot since the sixties, in terms of the unmanned missions, simply because of the advances in technology. For example, if you compare the results from the current Mars Global Surveyor with the first Mariner missions, there's absolutely no comparison, because one of the things that was remarkable was how quickly the Mars Global Surveyor debunked the face on Mars, because most scientists knew already that it was not a human artifact, but it was hard to convince people who were less knowledgeable. But the picture that was taken by the Mars Global Surveyor was so much sharper than the previous Viking images, there was absolutely no way that someone could imagine that to be a face on Mars. And that hasn't been in the tabloids yet. Of course, they don't want to publish that, because that makes their previous news look bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back to some of the work that you've been doing with others in the outreach program, as a student entering the field of astronomy and space science, or wanting to pursue a career, what advice would you give him or her?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, simply because back in those days I really didn't know that much about lunar science in general, because the astronomy that we were doing was really quite separate from what most of the scientific mission was about, which was the Moon itself. See, we weren't involved in studying the Moon, so I really could not really judge that. In fact, the only reason that I have somewhat broader knowledge of lunar science now than then was not because of any experiment I did, but because of the community outreach, where we have to educate students about a much broader range of topics than what we do specifically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The instrument itself was basically designed separate, to be assembled by the astronauts. Was there any consideration given to building that into the side of the lunar module or having it fixed, rather than as a separate instrument?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, simply because it would have been impossible to do that and still get the kind of sky colors we needed. Actually, we designed it so that the astronauts did not have to do any assembly. All they had to do was offload it and set it up on the tripod and do some alignment, because we were warned well in advance to make it simple, and for astronauts to do, because they had so many other things they had to do during the mission. And they didn't really have time to learn in great detail how our instrument worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was basically pointing it in the direction and then shooting it and then they returned after a period of time and would point and shoot according to a schedule?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So it really was a more complicated version of their Hasselblads [cameras], in that they were just there to use it, not to really do any science of their own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the retrieval of the film itself, that happened last?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, simply because it would have been impossible to do that and still get the kind of sky colors we needed. Actually, we designed it so that the astronauts did not have to do any assembly. All they had to do was offload it and set it up on the tripod and do some alignment, because we were warned well in advance to make it simple, and for astronauts to do, because they had so many other things they had to do during the mission. And they didn't really have time to learn in great detail how our instrument worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was basically pointing it in the direction and then shooting it and then they returned after a period of time and would point and shoot according to a schedule?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So it really was a more complicated version of their Hasselblads [cameras], in that they were just there to use it, not to really do any science of their own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the retrieval of the film itself, that happened last?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was last. And also, they didn't have to bring the rest of the instrument back, so they could just leave it there. All they had to do was take out the film transport and put it in their bag and leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make sure they didn't forget that film. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So it really was a more complicated version of their Hasselblads [cameras], in that they were just there to use it, not to really do any science of their own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the retrieval of the film itself, that happened last?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was last. And also, they didn't have to bring the rest of the instrument back, so they could just leave it there. All they had to do was take out the film transport and put it in their bag and leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make sure they didn't forget that film. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In closing, do you have any other comments or stories that you'd care to share about your career?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00093:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was last. And also, they didn't have to bring the rest of the instrument back, so they could just leave it there. All they had to do was take out the film transport and put it in their bag and leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make sure they didn't forget that film. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In closing, do you have any other comments or stories that you'd care to share about your career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. I think we've pretty much touched on everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then we'll close our interview, and again, thank you, Dr. Carruthers, for participating."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00843:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 28.55133920317304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Except I didn’t get paid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ll have to ask her if she felt that you lived up to her expectations. I’m sure that she’ll agree with that.\\n\\n When she was here and raising those children and you were off with educational efforts and other career plans, she must have had quite a support group herself. How did you all function together as an extended family in Cleveland?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was on the phone every day, there’s no question about that, and home most weekends. But here, again, we did have a group of friends that were just like family, and to this day we still maintain those friendships. And their children refer to me as Uncle and to her as the Aunt, and our children refer to them as uncles and aunts and so forth. So it was really like a family right here in Cleveland. In fact, we could not have survived with my going away like that if we didn’t have good friends and support like that. If something were to be needed to be done at home, then she could just pick up the phone and call any of them and they were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I believe we’re going to take another quick break and when we come back we’re going to talk, maybe receive some instruction from you about management styles and leadership qualities that we could utilize as lessons learned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right.\\n\\n [pause]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yesterday you briefly shared with us some of the qualities that you admired in your colleagues and former directors. What qualities do you seek in the employees that you recruit or that you hired?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00843:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 34.01399901626301, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right.\\n\\n [pause]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yesterday you briefly shared with us some of the qualities that you admired in your colleagues and former directors. What qualities do you seek in the employees that you recruit or that you hired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first thing is you must be technically competent in your field of endeavor, because the first thing that people need is some faith and credibility in your knowledge based in whatever area you’re hired. So that’s one thing I look for. Secondly, have you demonstrated your ability to work as a member of a team? Because unlike in the old days when one person could be the know-all, be-all for any particular area, that’s not the case anymore today. So you have to be able to demonstrate that you have ability to work as a member of a team. And also, if you’ve demonstrated some leadership abilities and ability to, what I call, inspire people to work with you.\\n\\n And I’m a great believer that you need to have a sense of humor, because if you can’t laugh and have fun at what you do, then I think you really need to find something else to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Speaking of sense of humor, I understand that there was a movement, underground movement, to put together a video for you of My Favorite Julian Earls Joke."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, is that right? [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "People thought that would be a great idea, that they could give you the jokes that they heard from you back as retirement presents. Do you have a stash of your favorite jokes that you like to share with folks?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.148228759516456, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Peace Corps tends to do that. So how old were you in 1963?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had just finished my freshman year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college, yeah. So to back up a little bit. I had, my parents. My father was an immigrant, which probably influenced me to some extent. He came to this country when he was ten years old. And both my parents grew up in poverty and even knew some hunger as children. And, uh, but they were very empathetic people, like my father joined the NAACP in the 1940s, and my mother was always the one to take casseroles to the neighboring widows and that kind of thing. But they were also a little bit outside of the norm, you know, of the average American suburban style life. We actually grew up in the city, in Minneapolis.\n\nAnd one example of that is my mom, the last child in the family, my little sister was born with Down syndrome. And so my mom was just defiant when the doctor said put her in an institution, and she brought her home. And I was, you know, recruited to help raise this child. So I really think that influenced me to, to, it influenced me to feel a sense of responsibility for other people and to always try to be helping them and serving them in some way. So I think that had a huge influence on everything in my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you grew up in Minneapolis?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 35.720254177240506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had just finished my freshman year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college, yeah. So to back up a little bit. I had, my parents. My father was an immigrant, which probably influenced me to some extent. He came to this country when he was ten years old. And both my parents grew up in poverty and even knew some hunger as children. And, uh, but they were very empathetic people, like my father joined the NAACP in the 1940s, and my mother was always the one to take casseroles to the neighboring widows and that kind of thing. But they were also a little bit outside of the norm, you know, of the average American suburban style life. We actually grew up in the city, in Minneapolis.\n\nAnd one example of that is my mom, the last child in the family, my little sister was born with Down syndrome. And so my mom was just defiant when the doctor said put her in an institution, and she brought her home. And I was, you know, recruited to help raise this child. So I really think that influenced me to, to, it influenced me to feel a sense of responsibility for other people and to always try to be helping them and serving them in some way. So I think that had a huge influence on everything in my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you grew up in Minneapolis?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you go to college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 33.358338490420365, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you go to college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we were the first generation on either side of the family to go to school, my brother first and then I was next. And we didn't have enough money to send me away. So I looked around the Twin Cities and right across the river was Macalester College. So I liked their pillars of their mission, which were racial and cultural diversity, community service, and international affairs. And so that's where I went. I also liked the fact that they had started already, before I got there, a program of exchange with an all Black school in the South. So for my junior, first semester of my junior year, I studied at Knoxville College in Tennessee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I joined the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and registered voters and felt to some extent, part of the, um, part of the civil rights movement. So I think that too was a big influence on me because I, in college, I got to know some African students and they talked a lot about the independence movements in Africa and about Pan-Africanism. So I saw it as an extension or a broader interpretation of civil rights, and I wanted to be part of that. So, so I, and that's when I really knew I had, I wanted to go to Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you study international relations in college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 26.36831912397576, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I joined the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and registered voters and felt to some extent, part of the, um, part of the civil rights movement. So I think that too was a big influence on me because I, in college, I got to know some African students and they talked a lot about the independence movements in Africa and about Pan-Africanism. So I saw it as an extension or a broader interpretation of civil rights, and I wanted to be part of that. So, so I, and that's when I really knew I had, I wanted to go to Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you study international relations in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I was good at English and I became an, um. I knew I needed to find a career where I could make some money. So I became a teacher, a high school teacher, and I even got certified at Macalester. And this was very useful. Then after I graduated, I taught. I felt, I knew I wanted to join the Peace Corps already, but I felt that I didn't want to inflict myself on a developing country as an untrained, inexperienced teacher. So I really felt, um, I needed to get some experience in as a teacher. So I taught for two years and then I joined."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Minneapolis?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, um. I had gone overseas my, um, right after graduating, so I was in France on a Macalester program called the Student Work Abroad Project. And, um, and when I came back, it was too late. The timing wasn't right. So that fall I substitute taught in Minneapolis. But then I went to Michigan, the Upper Peninsula actually, to teach, where I taught middle school, what we now call middle school. Back then it was junior high. And then I went on to the East Coast to teach. I thought I was going to teach in New York City, but they needed a fifth year. So I went to New Jersey and I taught in the New Brunswick, New Jersey, High School."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then what? When did you decide to finally apply? What, what caused you to do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.828969991736294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, because I had known all along this is what I wanted to do. So after, you know, right midway through my year in New Jersey, I applied and I was accepted first for, actually for Ethiopia. But that would have meant leaving school early. And I just couldn't do that. My contract went through June. So I came home for the summer to Minnesota and then I, the program they opened, that opened up in the fall was Kenya. And I just could not have asked for a better, you know, for a better program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, so let me ask you, where did you train? So you applied. Was it a complicated process to apply at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that it was. I think it was so much easier back then. But yeah, I was used to filling out applications, I suppose, at that point in my life. So I have. But the training was actually in New York, so we took classes at Columbia in teaching methods and we did a live-in in Spanish Harlem. I lived with an African American family for a month and taught at Cathedral High School. That was my practice teaching. And then we went upstate, um, to the town of Monroe, New York, where we all piled into this old hotel for our one month of intensive training in Swahili."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in Monroe?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.69885554637366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that it was. I think it was so much easier back then. But yeah, I was used to filling out applications, I suppose, at that point in my life. So I have. But the training was actually in New York, so we took classes at Columbia in teaching methods and we did a live-in in Spanish Harlem. I lived with an African American family for a month and taught at Cathedral High School. That was my practice teaching. And then we went upstate, um, to the town of Monroe, New York, where we all piled into this old hotel for our one month of intensive training in Swahili."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in Monroe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Our group was also trained at Columbia University, but we didn't have a home stay. We just lived in a hotel."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.7765061626374, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in Monroe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Our group was also trained at Columbia University, but we didn't have a home stay. We just lived in a hotel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So things change each year that become."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 23.08500684737489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Our group was also trained at Columbia University, but we didn't have a home stay. We just lived in a hotel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So things change each year that become."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, they were always experimenting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The training really has changed tremendously. So you went through training and did you learn Swahili?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.872229830416543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So things change each year that become."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, they were always experimenting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The training really has changed tremendously. So you went through training and did you learn Swahili?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. Um, I didn't use it that much when I got to Kenya because I was placed with the Luo people. They are the people of Obama's father's family. So basically Obama was half Luo. And they are a smaller tribe in Kenya and they have formed the active opposition for decades since independence. And I have an incredible story.\n\nWell, first of all, so when I got to Nairobi, um, nobody knew where my site was. I had asked for an isolated site because I didn't want to be near other Peace Corps volunteers. I wanted to be out of my own. I felt I could assimilate, learn the language, everything better that way. And so I got a school that was called Harambee, which in Swahili means \"let's pull together.\" And in those days it was very rare for volunteers to be assigned to Harambee schools. Today, I think it's very common."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what is a Harambee school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.635810922685046, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, they were always experimenting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The training really has changed tremendously. So you went through training and did you learn Swahili?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. Um, I didn't use it that much when I got to Kenya because I was placed with the Luo people. They are the people of Obama's father's family. So basically Obama was half Luo. And they are a smaller tribe in Kenya and they have formed the active opposition for decades since independence. And I have an incredible story.\n\nWell, first of all, so when I got to Nairobi, um, nobody knew where my site was. I had asked for an isolated site because I didn't want to be near other Peace Corps volunteers. I wanted to be out of my own. I felt I could assimilate, learn the language, everything better that way. And so I got a school that was called Harambee, which in Swahili means \"let's pull together.\" And in those days it was very rare for volunteers to be assigned to Harambee schools. Today, I think it's very common."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what is a Harambee school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's built by the community. Let's pull together. And, um, and so there's no government support. And that is the school I was assigned to. It was called Nyamira Girls Secondary, and it was a boarding school that took in forms one and two, the first two years of high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we do all of that, let me just go back to training a little bit. So did you think the language training was, was good?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.37312324742783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. Um, I didn't use it that much when I got to Kenya because I was placed with the Luo people. They are the people of Obama's father's family. So basically Obama was half Luo. And they are a smaller tribe in Kenya and they have formed the active opposition for decades since independence. And I have an incredible story.\n\nWell, first of all, so when I got to Nairobi, um, nobody knew where my site was. I had asked for an isolated site because I didn't want to be near other Peace Corps volunteers. I wanted to be out of my own. I felt I could assimilate, learn the language, everything better that way. And so I got a school that was called Harambee, which in Swahili means \"let's pull together.\" And in those days it was very rare for volunteers to be assigned to Harambee schools. Today, I think it's very common."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what is a Harambee school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's built by the community. Let's pull together. And, um, and so there's no government support. And that is the school I was assigned to. It was called Nyamira Girls Secondary, and it was a boarding school that took in forms one and two, the first two years of high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we do all of that, let me just go back to training a little bit. So did you think the language training was, was good?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Language training was good. We had wonderful Swahili teachers from Kenya and Tanzania and, um. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about the cultural training? Did you find it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.08124805269759, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's built by the community. Let's pull together. And, um, and so there's no government support. And that is the school I was assigned to. It was called Nyamira Girls Secondary, and it was a boarding school that took in forms one and two, the first two years of high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we do all of that, let me just go back to training a little bit. So did you think the language training was, was good?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Language training was good. We had wonderful Swahili teachers from Kenya and Tanzania and, um. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about the cultural training? Did you find it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't have many memories of the cultural training. I think it's, you know, in that brief time, I think I learned something of Kenya's history, but not a lot, because I didn't learn much about Mau Mau at all, you know. So we learned maybe about British colonialism, maybe about some of the different tribes, but, but not the deep hidden stuff. And, um, and then, of course, they focused a lot on teaching methods. But for me, that was irrelevant since I'd just spent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.86805339188621, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Language training was good. We had wonderful Swahili teachers from Kenya and Tanzania and, um. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about the cultural training? Did you find it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't have many memories of the cultural training. I think it's, you know, in that brief time, I think I learned something of Kenya's history, but not a lot, because I didn't learn much about Mau Mau at all, you know. So we learned maybe about British colonialism, maybe about some of the different tribes, but, but not the deep hidden stuff. And, um, and then, of course, they focused a lot on teaching methods. But for me, that was irrelevant since I'd just spent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About four years becoming a teacher so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the teaching methods didn't really help you at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.853392657651344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't have many memories of the cultural training. I think it's, you know, in that brief time, I think I learned something of Kenya's history, but not a lot, because I didn't learn much about Mau Mau at all, you know. So we learned maybe about British colonialism, maybe about some of the different tribes, but, but not the deep hidden stuff. And, um, and then, of course, they focused a lot on teaching methods. But for me, that was irrelevant since I'd just spent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About four years becoming a teacher so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the teaching methods didn't really help you at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I felt I was already pretty well trained in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what about the homestay? Did it help you learn about living in a different culture? I guess that was the."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.05932517516816, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About four years becoming a teacher so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the teaching methods didn't really help you at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I felt I was already pretty well trained in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what about the homestay? Did it help you learn about living in a different culture? I guess that was the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I already lived down at Knoxville College and in France. Maybe I had picked up some of that knowledge already and, uh, but it probably it did to some extent. I remember the young man who, the son in the family, teaching me. Because they lived in, I guess, what you might call a project or a tenement building. And he taught me, I'll never forget this training. If, you know, when you're, don't step on the elevator to go up to our floor until you know whether someone is over in the corner that you can't quite see as, you know, before you step on. Or if you're taking the stairs, if the elevator is out, then you have to check each landing and just be aware. I think he, he tried to teach me to look around me all the time, and that was useful training. If I could remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe even not in Kenya, but coming back home."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.510361305742396, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I felt I was already pretty well trained in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what about the homestay? Did it help you learn about living in a different culture? I guess that was the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I already lived down at Knoxville College and in France. Maybe I had picked up some of that knowledge already and, uh, but it probably it did to some extent. I remember the young man who, the son in the family, teaching me. Because they lived in, I guess, what you might call a project or a tenement building. And he taught me, I'll never forget this training. If, you know, when you're, don't step on the elevator to go up to our floor until you know whether someone is over in the corner that you can't quite see as, you know, before you step on. Or if you're taking the stairs, if the elevator is out, then you have to check each landing and just be aware. I think he, he tried to teach me to look around me all the time, and that was useful training. If I could remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe even not in Kenya, but coming back home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, uh, you went through training in New York and how, was it all English language teachers who were being trained, or was your group a more diverse group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.23373478415822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I already lived down at Knoxville College and in France. Maybe I had picked up some of that knowledge already and, uh, but it probably it did to some extent. I remember the young man who, the son in the family, teaching me. Because they lived in, I guess, what you might call a project or a tenement building. And he taught me, I'll never forget this training. If, you know, when you're, don't step on the elevator to go up to our floor until you know whether someone is over in the corner that you can't quite see as, you know, before you step on. Or if you're taking the stairs, if the elevator is out, then you have to check each landing and just be aware. I think he, he tried to teach me to look around me all the time, and that was useful training. If I could remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe even not in Kenya, but coming back home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, uh, you went through training in New York and how, was it all English language teachers who were being trained, or was your group a more diverse group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had, I think we had a combination of nursing and, nursing education, and if I remember right. We were a large group, over a hundred, and people were, some people were getting deselected. I remember that terrible, um, threat. I remember protesting when another, someone, a friend, got deselected, you know, so, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deselection is a big thing for people in the sixties. Do you have any thoughts about that? How effective a process that was?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.259705315731352, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know, I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, uh, you went through training in New York and how, was it all English language teachers who were being trained, or was your group a more diverse group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had, I think we had a combination of nursing and, nursing education, and if I remember right. We were a large group, over a hundred, and people were, some people were getting deselected. I remember that terrible, um, threat. I remember protesting when another, someone, a friend, got deselected, you know, so, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deselection is a big thing for people in the sixties. Do you have any thoughts about that? How effective a process that was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it's better, if there are some real questions about someone, to, um, to not take them to the country of service. Because we had someone come in Senegal. There was something called demystification, demyst for short, which was when the trainees, because of course the trainees now are mostly, most of the training is done in country. And so this woman came out to stay with us and in every way she was not appropriate for the Peace Corps. And I think it might have been better if she'd been told that before she. But at the end she said, well, you know, I don't think they'll take me, but at least I got a trip to Africa out of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe that was the whole idea. Okay, so you finished the first training. We'll go to the second training later on. And you ended up in Kenya. And I assume you flew to Nairobi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.621894795257056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had, I think we had a combination of nursing and, nursing education, and if I remember right. We were a large group, over a hundred, and people were, some people were getting deselected. I remember that terrible, um, threat. I remember protesting when another, someone, a friend, got deselected, you know, so, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deselection is a big thing for people in the sixties. Do you have any thoughts about that? How effective a process that was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it's better, if there are some real questions about someone, to, um, to not take them to the country of service. Because we had someone come in Senegal. There was something called demystification, demyst for short, which was when the trainees, because of course the trainees now are mostly, most of the training is done in country. And so this woman came out to stay with us and in every way she was not appropriate for the Peace Corps. And I think it might have been better if she'd been told that before she. But at the end she said, well, you know, I don't think they'll take me, but at least I got a trip to Africa out of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe that was the whole idea. Okay, so you finished the first training. We'll go to the second training later on. And you ended up in Kenya. And I assume you flew to Nairobi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so talk a little bit about your experience in, in arriving in Kenya."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 37.35766088361895, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it's better, if there are some real questions about someone, to, um, to not take them to the country of service. Because we had someone come in Senegal. There was something called demystification, demyst for short, which was when the trainees, because of course the trainees now are mostly, most of the training is done in country. And so this woman came out to stay with us and in every way she was not appropriate for the Peace Corps. And I think it might have been better if she'd been told that before she. But at the end she said, well, you know, I don't think they'll take me, but at least I got a trip to Africa out of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe that was the whole idea. Okay, so you finished the first training. We'll go to the second training later on. And you ended up in Kenya. And I assume you flew to Nairobi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so talk a little bit about your experience in, in arriving in Kenya."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so I found my site on the map, but nobody really knew how to get there. So, um, I, you know, because I had a bunch of luggage with me. And so I finally I found someone, though, who agreed to drive me all that way. It was about a five or six."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nobody from Peace Corps was?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.73073431513216, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so talk a little bit about your experience in, in arriving in Kenya."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so I found my site on the map, but nobody really knew how to get there. So, um, I, you know, because I had a bunch of luggage with me. And so I finally I found someone, though, who agreed to drive me all that way. It was about a five or six."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nobody from Peace Corps was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. In those days, they didn't help you get to your site. Or at least they weren't helping me get to my site. But that was fine. I wasn't afraid or, I just wanted to get there. I was very excited about reaching there. But when I arrived, there was a house where I was supposed to live, a teacher's house, and it was full of chickens and goats. And so, and there was no furniture. So the other teacher who was there and had welcomed me said, you know, I went five miles away to the, or several miles away to the nearest Peace, other Peace Corps volunteer and stayed with him.\n\nBut what is significant here is that this school had been founded by Oginga Odinga, who was a leading politician and statesman in Kenya for many, many years. And he was a founding father, you know, he helped the country gain independence and get, he got Kenyatta out of prison. And eventually he was instrumental in getting multiparty democracy going again in Kenya after the Kenyatta years. And he had founded my school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Was he from that village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.21489663691537, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And asking them to ensure their participation and approval of my stay. Next, we went to Odinga's home, where we feasted and danced to the haunting strains of traditional Luo harp music. Odinga flung his yellow and green staff here and there for emphasis as we danced. Everyone applauded when I carried money to the harpist. After the meal, people made long speeches in Luo, praising Odinga and welcoming me and Maranda PCV Ron Smallwood, the one I'd been staying with. I was brand new to Kenya and totally overwhelmed at the events of the day. Finally, I rose to express my gratitude which, you know, a speech which I wasn't prepared for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Luo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had learned Swahili, but they spoke Luo there, they didn't. Luo was more important than Swahili. I slept in my own house that night. The chickens were gone, but the empty rooms magnified the bumps and thuds from above and outside. After a few nights, my terror disappeared and I grew to love Nyamira. When I left two years later, Odinga was in prison, detained for political activity. I wish that I had found a way to thank him for helping to ensure the favorable intervention of the ancestors in my Nyamira experience. And I still cry when I read that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's lovely. Very nice. So you had an official welcome."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my gosh, I mean, how incredible. And this was before he went to prison, so it wasn't too much later that he was detained."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was imprisoned for?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.79432959657263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had learned Swahili, but they spoke Luo there, they didn't. Luo was more important than Swahili. I slept in my own house that night. The chickens were gone, but the empty rooms magnified the bumps and thuds from above and outside. After a few nights, my terror disappeared and I grew to love Nyamira. When I left two years later, Odinga was in prison, detained for political activity. I wish that I had found a way to thank him for helping to ensure the favorable intervention of the ancestors in my Nyamira experience. And I still cry when I read that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's lovely. Very nice. So you had an official welcome."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my gosh, I mean, how incredible. And this was before he went to prison, so it wasn't too much later that he was detained."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was imprisoned for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two years, I think for two years. But then after that, he was forbidden from political activity. But later he founded the opposition party and after. And now his son, of course, became prime minister later, the election. I think his son, Raila Odinga, who I knew, actually stole the election in 2008. But anyway, that's not part of this interview probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, unless you'd like to say something about that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.549255107302923, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh my gosh, I mean, how incredible. And this was before he went to prison, so it wasn't too much later that he was detained."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was imprisoned for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two years, I think for two years. But then after that, he was forbidden from political activity. But later he founded the opposition party and after. And now his son, of course, became prime minister later, the election. I think his son, Raila Odinga, who I knew, actually stole the election in 2008. But anyway, that's not part of this interview probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, unless you'd like to say something about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was my second trip back, but I'll talk about the first one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you got to the school. You were welcomed royally, clearly. And then did you end up learning Luo?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 19.499172341447693, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two years, I think for two years. But then after that, he was forbidden from political activity. But later he founded the opposition party and after. And now his son, of course, became prime minister later, the election. I think his son, Raila Odinga, who I knew, actually stole the election in 2008. But anyway, that's not part of this interview probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, unless you'd like to say something about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was my second trip back, but I'll talk about the first one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So you got to the school. You were welcomed royally, clearly. And then did you end up learning Luo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried, but let me explain what happened to me there, because it's, um, it's a little complicated. I loved the school. It was incredibly beautiful on this hill with these, you know, waving stands of yellow grass and all around us and beautiful sunsets near the lakes. So they brought fish sometimes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where was this, north?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.384045635494116, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when the girls arrived, they had to. They had to pay. The parents had to bring their money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, so they paid tuition."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You could be a little lenient somehow and put them on a payment plan. But these were mostly subsistence farmers, you know, and they, most of them didn't really have a way of raising the money. But when, um, but I think the headmaster had been insisting they pay full fees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then he took the money."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then pocketing it. Yes. But luckily, the board of governors was on the case, at least a little belatedly. But they, um, there was a trial and Codway went to prison. So then the board of governors said I should be the headmistress, even though sometimes I have been disagreeing with them because, well, for example, the student who was pregnant, they thought she should be sent home. And I said, no, she should stay and continue her studies as long as she can. But even with such disagreements, they seemed to feel I should be the headmistress. Well, I knew that this wasn't quite in my description of duties. So, um, but there was no quick means of communicating with Peace Corps headquarters.\n\nAnd I sent a letter and the letter came back and it was kind of ambiguous. So I told the board, well, okay, I'll step in temporarily. But the temporary position went on for a year and a half, so I stayed for the rest of my period I was there, I was there as the headmistress of the school. And of course, it was a lot of work. You know, I think I worked 80 hours a week. I would work from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. every day, because I was still teaching. And I was still teaching at least three subjects, three or four subjects, and, um, and I really had a ball though. I really loved it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what were your, your big challenges as headmistress of the school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.931025202704033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Luo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or Luo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly in English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the students spoke English as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.367805780782259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly in English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the students spoke English as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did. I mean, they had started English at a pretty early age, I think in standard three or something, or even before that, they start English. But, you know, when I needed to, I used Swahili, but, um, and I tried to learn Luo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how many teachers? How many teachers did you have?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.964228645313622, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the students spoke English as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did. I mean, they had started English at a pretty early age, I think in standard three or something, or even before that, they start English. But, you know, when I needed to, I used Swahili, but, um, and I tried to learn Luo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how many teachers? How many teachers did you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were never more than three, including me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Including you, so."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.738031828126246, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did. I mean, they had started English at a pretty early age, I think in standard three or something, or even before that, they start English. But, you know, when I needed to, I used Swahili, but, um, and I tried to learn Luo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then how many teachers? How many teachers did you have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were never more than three, including me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Including you, so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um, I think at one point there was four, because at one point the Swahili, we had to, no one was qualified to teach Swahili. So we had to get someone else who could do that. So we brought her in and she lived with me. So, um, that was nice. And yeah, so it was mostly in English and I always felt bad that I hadn't really learned Luo but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were super busy, running the."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.708924253473604, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were never more than three, including me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Including you, so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um, I think at one point there was four, because at one point the Swahili, we had to, no one was qualified to teach Swahili. So we had to get someone else who could do that. So we brought her in and she lived with me. So, um, that was nice. And yeah, so it was mostly in English and I always felt bad that I hadn't really learned Luo but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were super busy, running the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Super busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Running the school and teaching."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.89880472608178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um, I think at one point there was four, because at one point the Swahili, we had to, no one was qualified to teach Swahili. So we had to get someone else who could do that. So we brought her in and she lived with me. So, um, that was nice. And yeah, so it was mostly in English and I always felt bad that I hadn't really learned Luo but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were super busy, running the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Super busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Running the school and teaching."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was that all-consuming or did you have did you have a private life as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.332005251201977, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Super busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Running the school and teaching."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was that all-consuming or did you have did you have a private life as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there Peace Corps volunteers? There was somebody you said five miles down the road. Did you see that person?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 27.03556139022442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was that all-consuming or did you have did you have a private life as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there Peace Corps volunteers? There was somebody you said five miles down the road. Did you see that person?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that was at the boys school. Um, rarely. Once in a while. Once in a while, there would be, for example, a combined, um, combined party or something, a dance party with the boys. So then he would come over sometimes, although actually, sometimes another teacher would come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, who you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.483957100249356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there Peace Corps volunteers? There was somebody you said five miles down the road. Did you see that person?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that was at the boys school. Um, rarely. Once in a while. Once in a while, there would be, for example, a combined, um, combined party or something, a dance party with the boys. So then he would come over sometimes, although actually, sometimes another teacher would come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, who you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had, I had a close friend at Nia Girls School, which was about 20 miles away, but it was an all-day trip to get there. So I would see them I would say maybe once. You know, there were three semesters during the year, I think, in that system. And so once in a while at the semester breaks, I would, we would travel together, maybe go on safari."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She was in the Peace Corps with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.759952333610393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that was at the boys school. Um, rarely. Once in a while. Once in a while, there would be, for example, a combined, um, combined party or something, a dance party with the boys. So then he would come over sometimes, although actually, sometimes another teacher would come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, who you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had, I had a close friend at Nia Girls School, which was about 20 miles away, but it was an all-day trip to get there. So I would see them I would say maybe once. You know, there were three semesters during the year, I think, in that system. And so once in a while at the semester breaks, I would, we would travel together, maybe go on safari."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She was in the Peace Corps with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was a Peace Corps volunteer at a government school that had been founded by missionaries. So and then there was another woman with her. And those two are still my closest friends from that era, from that, from the Peace Corps Kenya era. So, um, yeah, and then it became, then I decided that what I needed to do, since I wasn't so sure my girls were going to get into government schools, that I should make Nyamira a government school. So I started writing letters to the Ministry of Education and also to our member of Parliament, Mr. Omalmo. And eventually they came to the school for a visit, and we spent days preparing for this visit, you know, with, of course, a program of singing and speeches. And we had to clean up the school, you know. It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like an accreditation visit?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.86413868346962, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was a Peace Corps volunteer at a government school that had been founded by missionaries. So and then there was another woman with her. And those two are still my closest friends from that era, from that, from the Peace Corps Kenya era. So, um, yeah, and then it became, then I decided that what I needed to do, since I wasn't so sure my girls were going to get into government schools, that I should make Nyamira a government school. So I started writing letters to the Ministry of Education and also to our member of Parliament, Mr. Omalmo. And eventually they came to the school for a visit, and we spent days preparing for this visit, you know, with, of course, a program of singing and speeches. And we had to clean up the school, you know. It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like an accreditation visit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. And I remember we also went out to work on the road because during the rainy season, the road out to the main road where you got the bus to Kisumu that, it was almost impassable during the rainy season. So we actually went out there and tried to fill in the ruts with rocks. And, and I went out there to prove I could do it too. And I worked with the girls for a while. I don't know if we made much progress on that road, but we tried. Um. And so they came and, um. The biggest celebration we ever had at the school was at the end where we got the letter that the government had agreed to take our school as a government school, and we really celebrated. Oh my gosh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Congratulations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that school still exists today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what, what did it take to become a government school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 29.84904298163291, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. And I remember we also went out to work on the road because during the rainy season, the road out to the main road where you got the bus to Kisumu that, it was almost impassable during the rainy season. So we actually went out there and tried to fill in the ruts with rocks. And, and I went out there to prove I could do it too. And I worked with the girls for a while. I don't know if we made much progress on that road, but we tried. Um. And so they came and, um. The biggest celebration we ever had at the school was at the end where we got the letter that the government had agreed to take our school as a government school, and we really celebrated. Oh my gosh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Congratulations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that school still exists today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what, what did it take to become a government school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they needed to see that the school was stable and that there were teachers there. I think unfortunately it was probably a mark of distinction that there was a foreigner there teaching, you know, a white woman. Um. And that the school had been able to attract and keep someone and. I don't know. I'm sure I provided lots of records, showed them that the records were being kept well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So once, so all of your students then became, became students in government schools?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 29.83226997959212, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that school still exists today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what, what did it take to become a government school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they needed to see that the school was stable and that there were teachers there. I think unfortunately it was probably a mark of distinction that there was a foreigner there teaching, you know, a white woman. Um. And that the school had been able to attract and keep someone and. I don't know. I'm sure I provided lots of records, showed them that the records were being kept well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So once, so all of your students then became, became students in government schools?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they only, yeah, and they added only a year at a time. So I think, I think maybe the first year that was still going to be the form one and two. So some of my students still needed to get in at other schools, um, and then the next year was going to be form three and then form four. So, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it started out with just two years and then went to four years. Well, that's really exciting. That's a major accomplishment."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 27.432897808018648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she hadn't heard from me in 15 years. So I walked in her front door and there was this daughter with the little baby. And they said, well, this is little Paula, named after you. And I was just, I mean, that was one of the most incredible experiences of my life after the Oginga Odinga experience. And so naturally, you know, I became, I sponsored her through grade school, high school, and she got a master's degree. And she now is working in early childhood education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Kenya?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Kenya. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's little Paula."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Little Paula is now grown up."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 32.81477723249953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tremendous impact on these individuals and clearly on you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did this for a year and a half or I guess two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I taught there for six months and then a year and a half as headmistress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when your two years were up, what, what happened then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 33.12753025833281, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did this for a year and a half or I guess two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I taught there for six months and then a year and a half as headmistress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when your two years were up, what, what happened then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, first the community gave me this lovely party that I mentioned to you where I got the little beaded crown, and it was actually in. I have to find this if it's here. Well, I guess I didn't bring it, but um. Oh, here it is. No. They somehow it got in the Daily Nation, which was the Kenyan newspaper, a little article about it, with a headline that said Peace, uh, \"Community Praises Peace Corps Volunteer.\" And then there was another newspaper called the East African Standard, and it was there in a little photograph, and that was quite lovely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had quite some recognition. You started off with a famous man and you ended up in the newspaper. And then and then, uh, did you come straight home or had you thought about staying?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 35.697255842592014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I taught there for six months and then a year and a half as headmistress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when your two years were up, what, what happened then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, first the community gave me this lovely party that I mentioned to you where I got the little beaded crown, and it was actually in. I have to find this if it's here. Well, I guess I didn't bring it, but um. Oh, here it is. No. They somehow it got in the Daily Nation, which was the Kenyan newspaper, a little article about it, with a headline that said Peace, uh, \"Community Praises Peace Corps Volunteer.\" And then there was another newspaper called the East African Standard, and it was there in a little photograph, and that was quite lovely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had quite some recognition. You started off with a famous man and you ended up in the newspaper. And then and then, uh, did you come straight home or had you thought about staying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the Daily Nation in the lower right. It was the East Africa Standard. And you can see the little crown."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, very nice. It's a picture of her in a little beaded crown. Very nice."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.738348206573406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, so then my friend from Nia School and the other woman who had taught at Nia and I went on the road for six months. And originally we'd planned to go through India, but we changed plans and we spent all six months in Africa. So, um, we had so many adventures along the way. Usually we hitchhiked, you know, and, um, tried to be Peace Corps volunteers even though we had finished with our service. As you know, that's the way Peace Corps volunteers travel. So we're on the road and it was a fabulous experience. We first went south to Tanzania, Malawi, Zambia, Zimbabwe. We tried to get into South Africa. They wouldn't let us in because we had, I suppose because we had been Peace Corps volunteers.\n\nAnd then we flew, oh my gosh, brush with history. We were due to fly to West Africa through Entebbe, with a fuel stop in Entebbe. But the pilot said that the plane had been diverted because there had been a coup in Uganda and Idi Amin had just taken over. And I thought if we'd been a day earlier, we would have been, who knows? Messed up with that whole horrible happening. But instead we were back in Nairobi just for a night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They took hostages in, on a plane in Entebbe, you remember? The Israeli commandos saved, it must have been an Israeli plane, I can't remember the details. But there was a whole rescuing people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I remember the rescue mission for the Falasha in Ethiopia. The Jews."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I'd forgotten this. Well, so then we got to West Africa and we went, we traveled to Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, Ivory Coast."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you saw a lot of Africa, clearly."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.820386896192673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I remember the rescue mission for the Falasha in Ethiopia. The Jews."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I'd forgotten this. Well, so then we got to West Africa and we went, we traveled to Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, Ivory Coast."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you saw a lot of Africa, clearly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mali, Morocco. Yes, we did. And over the years, I've been to 24 African countries so, for all kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you traveled and then you came back to the United States."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.13376321799186, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I'd forgotten this. Well, so then we got to West Africa and we went, we traveled to Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, Ivory Coast."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you saw a lot of Africa, clearly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mali, Morocco. Yes, we did. And over the years, I've been to 24 African countries so, for all kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you traveled and then you came back to the United States."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you go back to teaching or what?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.593070242213177, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mali, Morocco. Yes, we did. And over the years, I've been to 24 African countries so, for all kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you traveled and then you came back to the United States."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you go back to teaching or what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't because I had another strong pull. I wanted to become a writer. I loved writing. I was always a compulsive writer. And, um, so I became a newspaper reporter on a weekly outside Minneapolis and loved that job. And, um, and then I married another Peace Corps volunteer. And we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not from Kenya though?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.88118915801464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you go back to teaching or what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't because I had another strong pull. I wanted to become a writer. I loved writing. I was always a compulsive writer. And, um, so I became a newspaper reporter on a weekly outside Minneapolis and loved that job. And, um, and then I married another Peace Corps volunteer. And we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not from Kenya though?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was from Ethiopia. And then after several years, we moved to Washington in 1977. And I continued my career as a writer here in Washington. He worked, he was working for the Housing and Urban Development. Anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you ended up back in West Africa in, I forgot, in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 25.423543508905155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't because I had another strong pull. I wanted to become a writer. I loved writing. I was always a compulsive writer. And, um, so I became a newspaper reporter on a weekly outside Minneapolis and loved that job. And, um, and then I married another Peace Corps volunteer. And we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not from Kenya though?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was from Ethiopia. And then after several years, we moved to Washington in 1977. And I continued my career as a writer here in Washington. He worked, he was working for the Housing and Urban Development. Anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then you ended up back in West Africa in, I forgot, in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Senegal. 2005, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "2005 in Senegal. So how, how does a reporter in Washington, D.C., end up in Senegal as a Peace Corps volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.904044366567833, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I'm trying always to do creative tours, educational tours."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Africa has been in your blood."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it has."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. So you came back, you married this former Peace Corps volunteer, and then did you go to Senegal together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So he has always worked on the Hill and, um. And he was getting towards the end of his career on the Hill. At one point he went off the Hill for a while, but then he ended up back on the Hill working for Senate, committees on the Senate side. And he was close to retiring.\n\nAnd also I'd gone through a period of looking after my parents from long distance because they were still in Minneapolis. And they died in 2001 and 2002. And during that time, I had a part time teaching job at the University of D.C. So, um, that's what I was doing, that was taking care of my parents long distance, flying back and forth. Also, of course, my sister was still with them, the one with Down syndrome. So that was a complication and it took a lot of effort to figure out how to arrange their lives at that point. But they died in 2001 and 2002."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is your sister still alive?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.165486872305966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So he has always worked on the Hill and, um. And he was getting towards the end of his career on the Hill. At one point he went off the Hill for a while, but then he ended up back on the Hill working for Senate, committees on the Senate side. And he was close to retiring.\n\nAnd also I'd gone through a period of looking after my parents from long distance because they were still in Minneapolis. And they died in 2001 and 2002. And during that time, I had a part time teaching job at the University of D.C. So, um, that's what I was doing, that was taking care of my parents long distance, flying back and forth. Also, of course, my sister was still with them, the one with Down syndrome. So that was a complication and it took a lot of effort to figure out how to arrange their lives at that point. But they died in 2001 and 2002."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is your sister still alive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, my sister, um. There's a good group home. There's a good social services system in Hennepin County, which encompasses Minneapolis, and we had found a group home for her. But I was, I became her guardian along with my other sister. Um. But my other sister agreed that if I was going to go back in Peace Corps, that she would take over the guardianship duties while I was gone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, by the way, I have a. How do you know this is, are you able to read? How do you know if it's recording well?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's, it's doing it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.072763191451074, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, my sister, um. There's a good group home. There's a good social services system in Hennepin County, which encompasses Minneapolis, and we had found a group home for her. But I was, I became her guardian along with my other sister. Um. But my other sister agreed that if I was going to go back in Peace Corps, that she would take over the guardianship duties while I was gone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, by the way, I have a. How do you know this is, are you able to read? How do you know if it's recording well?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's, it's doing it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's doing it. Not to worry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.191959101612305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, by the way, I have a. How do you know this is, are you able to read? How do you know if it's recording well?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's, it's doing it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's doing it. Not to worry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Just curious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it keeps going."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 22.70612234766951, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Just curious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it keeps going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I see we've, I've been talking for almost an hour."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So, um. So my husband immediately agreed. He had served in Nepal in the same years as I was in Kenya by coincidence, '69 to '70. And he had loved it. He had loved his small village and the whole experience. And so when I said, shall we rejoin the Peace Corps? He immediately agreed. And then I said, but I want it to be Africa. And that was fine with him. So we were assigned to Senegal. And that was a point when Peace Corps was trying to get volunteers who are older. I don't know if they're still recruiting that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know. But I've interviewed quite a few people who are older."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 23.6983845647044, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Good. Well, anyway, um, so we went. And I'll never forget the day when he called to say that we had our assignments. And I had assumed that since much of my career has been writing, editing, teaching English, teaching writing that I would be assigned to something like, since this is a francophone country, something like English curriculum development or something like that, who knows? But instead I was assigned to SED, which is small enterprise development. So I said, well, no way, we'll just have to go back to them and get another assignment, because I don't know anything about starting small businesses. But he convinced me I could do it and should do it so. And his assignment was to plant trees. So, um.\n\nAnd this time we went over there for our training in country in the town of Thies and found ourselves with 25 of the most incredible 20 somethings. I mean, this was just a remarkable group of young people. And perhaps I would have said that no matter who we were with, just because, you know, you bond with. I bonded much more with that group than I ever did with the Kenya group for various reasons. But we were, we could have been grandparents for most of them in terms of age. There was only one other couple and they were kind of midway between the two groups. But they accepted us. You know, we were so grateful and sometimes even looked to us for advice. And so we went through training there. I felt much more critical of the training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the training? Where was the training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Thies?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, in Thies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The city, which is inland from Dakar by about 2 hours. I think it's the third largest or fourth largest city in Senegal. And there's a Peace Corps training center there that I believe they still, they still are using, a lovely setting for it. And we had a homestay with a family that, we stayed with families in Thies, and that was a good experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were about to say that you were more critical of this training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.617947363309195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So that was my favorite thing, I think, of anything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of businesses did these women start?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I found a group of Bambara women descended from the families that had settled. Our town was called Guinguineo. And it was actually a fabulous site, kind of a peaceful town, about 20 K north of the city of Kaolack in Senegal, which I would not have wanted to be placed in a city. But this town, maybe 20 or 30,000 people, was just ideal. I mean, it was not on the road to anywhere so you didn't have cars racing through town or anything. Someone might say a good place to raise your kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know. And we just got, I think by that time I had my master's degree in anthropology. So I think I really, at first I just was at a loss as what to do. So I decided to really get to know Guinguineo. So I went around doing, you know, participant observer interviews all over town and writing up all my findings and trying to understand the town. Getting to know a lot of people too, which was useful. So I found this group of Bambara women who lived in a kind of enclave at the edge of town, and, um, and they seemed to be really together as a women's group. And they seemed eager to have me come. And we decided to do a porridge project because they're, they were famous for the porridge that they, uh, millet porridge that they had made years ago.\n\nAnd I saw all these kids eating white bread for breakfast. And it's just, I know if I eat white bread for breakfast, I'm hungry by 10:00, you know. And it was sort of a legacy from the French, I think. But anyway, so I thought it'd be great if everyone could eat this porridge. So we went through the whole process of making it and bagging it and putting the labels on, and it was just so much fun. We had a great time with those women working on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it survive?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.19745866023209, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They didn't carry it on without me, and I'm not sure why. I think it could have been that they didn't have, that I hadn't focused on developing a good process for how the profits were going to be used and that maybe the profits just disappeared. And maybe it was too near the end of my service and I had hoped that the Peace Corps volunteer who followed me would take it on and look after that. But oftentimes, because they didn't have that kind of direction for the Peace Corps, to carry on previous volunteers' projects. They were supposed to do their own thing and, you know, that. It didn't work. She didn't get involved in that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say the money disappeared, it wasn't, was it stolen or it just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm not sure what happened to it, because by then I was gone. And I went back to see them afterwards and that was kind of the explanation they gave as to why the project did not continue. They, you know, but we sure had a good time, those six or eight months working on and selling. Oh my God, that porridge was so delicious. You know, I bought so many that, you know, and always served it to our guests when they came. Really good and really filled your stomach in the morning and very healthy too. So I did that. And then we also adopted, um, we had some trouble making inroads into Guinguineo itself. You know, it had its little cliques and cartiers and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is all in French?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.541470294516216, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For you, and then I guess from the point of view of impact. Maybe there really wasn't any difference."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, so one was Anglophone, mostly Christian country, East Africa. The other was Francophone, mostly Muslim, West Africa. So there were huge differences in terms of the culture and history of the countries. And then, you know, like everything was different about my personal experience because, I mean, there I'd been, this young woman who was just all by myself out there and given this huge responsibility to run the school and succeeded. And, you know, what a, I think it gave me enough confidence to propel me through life from that point. So that was fabulous.\n\nAnd the second time, not only did I come with my husband but also we were part of a family, so we weren't so independent. We always needed to report. I'll never forget one time the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were part of a family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in, um, at our site in Guinguineo because it's a Muslim country so all volunteers are placed with families. And I think that happens in some even non-Muslim countries too. But it's just thought that you can integrate better if you're considered part of a family. So most families have compounds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you lived on the compound?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.712744771684685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, so one was Anglophone, mostly Christian country, East Africa. The other was Francophone, mostly Muslim, West Africa. So there were huge differences in terms of the culture and history of the countries. And then, you know, like everything was different about my personal experience because, I mean, there I'd been, this young woman who was just all by myself out there and given this huge responsibility to run the school and succeeded. And, you know, what a, I think it gave me enough confidence to propel me through life from that point. So that was fabulous.\n\nAnd the second time, not only did I come with my husband but also we were part of a family, so we weren't so independent. We always needed to report. I'll never forget one time the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were part of a family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in, um, at our site in Guinguineo because it's a Muslim country so all volunteers are placed with families. And I think that happens in some even non-Muslim countries too. But it's just thought that you can integrate better if you're considered part of a family. So most families have compounds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you lived on the compound?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we had our own little house, but it belonged to the family. And it was, you know, there was a fence around. We were included. And we were right next door to the main family house. So we participated a lot, especially on holidays. You know, we would become part of the, the family celebration or special, you know. When the adult children would be visiting, we'd be invited over. And actually we took our meals, our mid-day meals, with the family every day. So that was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So clearly, a very different experience."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.695123143600389, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very different. The other thing that made it really different for me was adjusting to the needs of my husband. You know, we, we think of the whole experience very fondly. You know, we love, we love Guinguineo. When I think about the two sites that I was given, Nyamira and then Guinguineo, I think there just couldn't be two more wonderful sites. It was just a lovely little town and the people were so welcoming and a lot of them had come there, well, their fathers or grandfathers had come there to work on the railroad. Because when the French built the railroad that went to Bamako, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Through Senegal, all the way to Bamako, which really doesn't operate much anymore, but it went through Guinguineo. That was one. And so the old train station is still there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the old cars. Yeah, it was really, whenever friends would come to visit, we'd take them on a tour of the old railroad station and the big warehouses where the old cars were still, some of them were still there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were saying that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.56188042419801, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the old cars. Yeah, it was really, whenever friends would come to visit, we'd take them on a tour of the old railroad station and the big warehouses where the old cars were still, some of them were still there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were saying that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the other thing is that my husband had another priority. So he had worked on the Hill for 40 years, and he had oftentimes worked on legislation to reform something in the government. I mean, it was just his nature to want to write legislation to change things, to make them better. So he took on the whole Peace Corps while we were there and decided that reform was needed. And because I was living with him and traveling with him and even, you know, we worked on some projects together, um, I was kind of drawn into it. So I became a co-reformer. And he was still in touch with some of his people he'd worked with on the Hill. And one of them happened to work for Senator Dodd, who, as you know, was I think the only Senator who has been a Peace Corps volunteer. Or is there another one now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, um, at the time he was head of the Foreign Relations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was, I think, the only Senator to ever."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.866519042219764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, um, at the time he was head of the Foreign Relations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was, I think, the only Senator to ever."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, no, lots and lots of Representatives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Representatives, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, so he was head of the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere, the Peace Corps, and whatever else it covered. So, um. And of course, he was always interested in the Peace Corps and loved his time. I think he still said that was the best thing he ever did, you know, so, um. So Chuck got in touch with one of the staffers who he knew. And together, I think mostly Chuck, developed this reform legislation to reform the Peace Corps. There were a lot of things that we saw that could have been improved. We, we felt that since we'd been in the Peace Corps that there had been so many regulations passed. You know, every time something goes wrong, then there'd be a new regulation. But just like with the federal government, the regulations are never eliminated. So there's this hole.\n\nAnd he felt that it was way too hierarchical. I mean, for example, my wonderful experience being a headmistress probably couldn't happen anymore because the Peace Corps would have said, no way, that's not what you're supposed to be doing. So, but back, you know, the first time there, the Peace Corps was very young, very flexible. There weren't that many regulations, we could do pretty much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everybody had motorcycles and no more motorcycles."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.588295113851558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, so he was head of the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere, the Peace Corps, and whatever else it covered. So, um. And of course, he was always interested in the Peace Corps and loved his time. I think he still said that was the best thing he ever did, you know, so, um. So Chuck got in touch with one of the staffers who he knew. And together, I think mostly Chuck, developed this reform legislation to reform the Peace Corps. There were a lot of things that we saw that could have been improved. We, we felt that since we'd been in the Peace Corps that there had been so many regulations passed. You know, every time something goes wrong, then there'd be a new regulation. But just like with the federal government, the regulations are never eliminated. So there's this hole.\n\nAnd he felt that it was way too hierarchical. I mean, for example, my wonderful experience being a headmistress probably couldn't happen anymore because the Peace Corps would have said, no way, that's not what you're supposed to be doing. So, but back, you know, the first time there, the Peace Corps was very young, very flexible. There weren't that many regulations, we could do pretty much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Everybody had motorcycles and no more motorcycles."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we weren't allowed to ride motorcycles even then. This was the late sixties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Although I think the ag volunteers could, but not us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just going to, okay, people keep talking about these motorcycles."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 19.54255012650173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we weren't allowed to ride motorcycles even then. This was the late sixties."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Although I think the ag volunteers could, but not us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just going to, okay, people keep talking about these motorcycles."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. Yeah. So eventually this Peace Corps, this legislation was, Senator Dodd introduced it and said he was going to have a hearing on it and invited us to testify. And so we decided we would go. This was to be in July 2007."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your husband actually drafted it when he was overseas?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.936166807224142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Although I think the ag volunteers could, but not us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just going to, okay, people keep talking about these motorcycles."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I know. Yeah. So eventually this Peace Corps, this legislation was, Senator Dodd introduced it and said he was going to have a hearing on it and invited us to testify. And so we decided we would go. This was to be in July 2007."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your husband actually drafted it when he was overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. He did. And in communication with this, with the staff on the subcommittee. And, um, Peace Corps headquarters, well, the Dakar office had already had some run-ins with my husband, or I should say he had some run-ins with them. So, you know, we felt a little threatened already. But when they heard that we were, we wanted to go testify, they said, well, you don't have any vacation time to do this. Or you don't have enough vacation time. And then we said, well, we'll take leave, you know, there was also a category of leave. And, um, and they really wouldn't give us any extra day to do this. They said, we're not going to allow you any time. But somehow we fit it in to the one or two days of leave we had left and a weekend.\n\nAnd I don't know how we did it, but it was, the whole trip to D.C. and back was crammed into like four days, five days. A very exhausting. And so we went to this Senate Subcommittee hearing dressed in our really most beautiful Senegalese clothes. And when Senator Dodd saw us, he said, wow! He said, looks like the Senegalese Chamber of Commerce dressed you for this occasion. And he was delighted. He was very welcoming. But, of course, Peace Corps headquarters was not so happy that we were there. And they testified too and said everything was hunky dory. But we had really found, um, that Peace Corps was cracking down too much on the volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was the essence of the reform?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.660036772598271, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there were quite a few different, um, different items. One of them was we wanted, we felt Peace Corps was the only agency where I think neither staff nor volunteers had whistleblower rights. And that was a key thing. And I believe what happened eventually when we got back from, um. We also thought there should be an easier way to get funding of projects because it was so bureaucratic to go through that, that Peace Corps, and I can't remember the name of the fund, but that fund that provides some money.\n\nAnd we felt we really needed better training. Neither he nor I had had training that really enabled us to do what we should have done. I felt that a business training program focused on trying to get the Senegalese to do better accounting was not the right way to go. We also wanted better language training because as older learners, we, you know, some of these things are specific to Senegal, but other things could apply to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We felt that probably across all Peace Corps countries, there were programs that were just not working, that just went on and on and on. And nobody, what we wanted was more, a means for volunteers to communicate their views of the program, the training, the program, so that they could participate in how they make, to make it a better program. And eventually we worked with Carrie, the Peace Corps director."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hessler-Radelet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hessler-Radelet, yeah, and she was fabulous. And as you probably know, she made so many wonderful reforms. But we worked with her. My husband especially worked with her for about the last couple of years that she, that she was director. And it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did the legislation ever pass?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.400040858442523, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We felt that probably across all Peace Corps countries, there were programs that were just not working, that just went on and on and on. And nobody, what we wanted was more, a means for volunteers to communicate their views of the program, the training, the program, so that they could participate in how they make, to make it a better program. And eventually we worked with Carrie, the Peace Corps director."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hessler-Radelet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hessler-Radelet, yeah, and she was fabulous. And as you probably know, she made so many wonderful reforms. But we worked with her. My husband especially worked with her for about the last couple of years that she, that she was director. And it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did the legislation ever pass?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, she took a lot of things that were in there so, but I mean she had her own ideas for like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it didn't pass as legislation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.481531924003114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, she took a lot of things that were in there so, but I mean she had her own ideas for like."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it didn't pass as legislation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not specifically, because what happened was Senator Dodd kind of abandoned it when he started to run for president. And, uh, and then he didn't, eventually didn't come back to the Senate anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you came here, you testified, you went back?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.646146582225683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not specifically, because what happened was Senator Dodd kind of abandoned it when he started to run for president. And, uh, and then he didn't, eventually didn't come back to the Senate anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you came here, you testified, you went back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we, we had about 50 friends who filled the hearing room. It was a riot. And Chuck's aged father, who was 92 at that point, flew in from California. My parents weren't around, but for the. And then he took us all, all 50 friends out to dinner, or lunch I guess. And so it was, it was a lot of fun. And I think maybe our voices were heard by someone and, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had an impact that way as well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.05127398025076, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you came here, you testified, you went back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we, we had about 50 friends who filled the hearing room. It was a riot. And Chuck's aged father, who was 92 at that point, flew in from California. My parents weren't around, but for the. And then he took us all, all 50 friends out to dinner, or lunch I guess. And so it was, it was a lot of fun. And I think maybe our voices were heard by someone and, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had an impact that way as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I hope. My husband certainly believes we did. I'm always a little more, less certain about impacts than other people are. I think it comes in many indirect ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you went back and you finished your service?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.60433929509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But two incredible things. I mean, I keep thinking of these little stories as, as serendipity or little miracles in my life. At the end of her one year stay, because CorpsAfrica is for only one year, she, um. She welcomed a Peace Corps volunteer to her site, to the same village. And then she helped this Peace Corps volunteer start a girls club in that little village. She said, you should do this. This is the most wonderful thing you can do.\n\nAnd then the village, Maka Baye, that Chuck and I have adopted, or maybe the chief had adopted us, outside of Guinguineo. That chief had always wanted a volunteer to live there, and we had mentioned it the Peace Corps. But there had been no Peace Corps volunteer assigned to Maka Baye. Fatica somehow arranged to have a CorpsAfrica volunteer assigned to. So she sent me the picture and the chief is just beaming beside this young Senegalese woman who was going to live in his village and help him do projects for a year. So, I mean, it's just like full circle again and again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you've trained the next generation as well. That's really great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and this program is, Liz Fanning thinks it's going to go, and she says by the year I think 2030 it's going to be in every country in Africa she says. Right now they're only in four countries. Morocco, Senegal, Malawi, and Rwanda. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've had a full Peace Corps life and you've brought Peace Corps back."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.1159325501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and this program is, Liz Fanning thinks it's going to go, and she says by the year I think 2030 it's going to be in every country in Africa she says. Right now they're only in four countries. Morocco, Senegal, Malawi, and Rwanda. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've had a full Peace Corps life and you've brought Peace Corps back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've been talking."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.12949, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hosting people from Senegal, or Kenya too, because Gerry, my Kenyan friend, lives in D.C. and her children often come through so. So that's, you know, I really, in terms of impact. I think Peace Corps has had a tremendous impact in this country because every time I find out about some project where there's a new medical intervention that, you know, is really doing well in developing countries. Or some, oftentimes at the museum, there will be an anthropologist who comes through and has curated this incredible exhibition or something, and it's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you look into their bio and you look back and back and back and they don't always make a big deal of it. But you often find that Peace Corps was a factor. And I think it goes for leadership in a lot of federal agencies, at least in the past, I don't know what's happening now. But, you know, State Department, USAID, all the NGOs, the top NGOs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Filled with Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Filled, yeah. So I think that's, you know, that we've had an impact, that Peace Corps has had an impact that way. So it certainly was, you know, a crucial theme throughout my life. Everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It had an impact in the country. It had an impact in the United States. And clearly, personally, it's having tremendous impact on your life."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.3661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you look into their bio and you look back and back and back and they don't always make a big deal of it. But you often find that Peace Corps was a factor. And I think it goes for leadership in a lot of federal agencies, at least in the past, I don't know what's happening now. But, you know, State Department, USAID, all the NGOs, the top NGOs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Filled with Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Filled, yeah. So I think that's, you know, that we've had an impact, that Peace Corps has had an impact that way. So it certainly was, you know, a crucial theme throughout my life. Everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It had an impact in the country. It had an impact in the United States. And clearly, personally, it's having tremendous impact on your life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, unbelievable. So I hope it goes on for many decades to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, good. This has been a really great interview. Anything else? Anything else that you wanted to talk about?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.629, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Filled, yeah. So I think that's, you know, that we've had an impact, that Peace Corps has had an impact that way. So it certainly was, you know, a crucial theme throughout my life. Everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It had an impact in the country. It had an impact in the United States. And clearly, personally, it's having tremendous impact on your life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, unbelievable. So I hope it goes on for many decades to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, good. This has been a really great interview. Anything else? Anything else that you wanted to talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I stopped. I stopped looking here. So let me see if there is anything else that I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've told lots and lots of stories."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, unbelievable. So I hope it goes on for many decades to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, good. This has been a really great interview. Anything else? Anything else that you wanted to talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I stopped. I stopped looking here. So let me see if there is anything else that I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've told lots and lots of stories."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have. So I think I've covered pretty much what I wanted to say. And, you know, I just, I guess I've said this and it sounds really hokey, but I've said it before, in that I'm just grateful to live in a country that has a Peace Corps. And that I was lucky enough to go. I mean, imagine being in Africa just when these countries, I was in Kenya just after independence, and it was still, there was so much hope and joy, you know, yet before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Many bad things happened."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I stopped. I stopped looking here. So let me see if there is anything else that I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've told lots and lots of stories."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have. So I think I've covered pretty much what I wanted to say. And, you know, I just, I guess I've said this and it sounds really hokey, but I've said it before, in that I'm just grateful to live in a country that has a Peace Corps. And that I was lucky enough to go. I mean, imagine being in Africa just when these countries, I was in Kenya just after independence, and it was still, there was so much hope and joy, you know, yet before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Many bad things happened."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So it was an amazing time to be there. But I would say that being in Senegal 40 years later was also an incredible experience. And, you know, it gave me a son and a daughter. I don't have children of my own. So it's wonderful to be able to, to help and to mentor all these other children. Young people, they're not children. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So thank you so much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00096:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have. So I think I've covered pretty much what I wanted to say. And, you know, I just, I guess I've said this and it sounds really hokey, but I've said it before, in that I'm just grateful to live in a country that has a Peace Corps. And that I was lucky enough to go. I mean, imagine being in Africa just when these countries, I was in Kenya just after independence, and it was still, there was so much hope and joy, you know, yet before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Many bad things happened."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. So it was an amazing time to be there. But I would say that being in Senegal 40 years later was also an incredible experience. And, you know, it gave me a son and a daughter. I don't have children of my own. So it's wonderful to be able to, to help and to mentor all these other children. Young people, they're not children. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So thank you so much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're welcome. Thank you for doing this work. It's, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's good to remember those stories."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.529634015382598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sharipov."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sharipov. I'm sorry.\\n\\n Okay. We're here in Building 1 in the Conference Room to get -- you were gracious enough to give an interview before you left town to go back to Russia after your flight on STS-89. And I've given you a copy of the questions here. And we just wanted to find out a little bit about yourself for all the people that are going to be listening to this tape and watching it. The first question is, just tell us a little bit about your hometown, where you grew up living in -- I think it's, if I pronounce it right here, Kaza--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kirgizstan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kirgizstan. Pardon my English. I'm slaughtering the Russian titles of your state. So if you wanted to -- I know this is a small map, but if you wanted to point it out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the city that you were born in I think is --"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.14403779486955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kirgizstan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kirgizstan. Pardon my English. I'm slaughtering the Russian titles of your state. So if you wanted to -- I know this is a small map, but if you wanted to point it out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the city that you were born in I think is --"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born in Usgen City, which is a very small city of about 50,000 people. Our city has a great history. This year we celebrated 2500 years of our city. We have very great ancient buildings that was built in the fifth and seventh century. So I grew up in the city. My parents, my friends are all there. They are waiting in the city. Of course, it would be interesting to tour my city to see my friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your family still lives there. I know you talked about your father still lives there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.93781977207728, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the city that you were born in I think is --"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born in Usgen City, which is a very small city of about 50,000 people. Our city has a great history. This year we celebrated 2500 years of our city. We have very great ancient buildings that was built in the fifth and seventh century. So I grew up in the city. My parents, my friends are all there. They are waiting in the city. Of course, it would be interesting to tour my city to see my friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your family still lives there. I know you talked about your father still lives there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My father, my sister, brothers, they live in Usgen City. We have a big family. I have four brothers and two sisters. So I grew up in a big family. I have a father and, of course, many relatives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure they are very proud of you and all of your accomplishments."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.930910857863644, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born in Usgen City, which is a very small city of about 50,000 people. Our city has a great history. This year we celebrated 2500 years of our city. We have very great ancient buildings that was built in the fifth and seventh century. So I grew up in the city. My parents, my friends are all there. They are waiting in the city. Of course, it would be interesting to tour my city to see my friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your family still lives there. I know you talked about your father still lives there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My father, my sister, brothers, they live in Usgen City. We have a big family. I have four brothers and two sisters. So I grew up in a big family. I have a father and, of course, many relatives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure they are very proud of you and all of your accomplishments."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you -- Connie talked about the -- this -- is it Zirba Space Center, the professor that you had there, the academian?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.701012064292936, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My father, my sister, brothers, they live in Usgen City. We have a big family. I have four brothers and two sisters. So I grew up in a big family. I have a father and, of course, many relatives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure they are very proud of you and all of your accomplishments."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you -- Connie talked about the -- this -- is it Zirba Space Center, the professor that you had there, the academian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, mine is northeast Uzbek, but I was born in Kirgizstan. So Uzbek -- I have many Uzbek friends in Kazakhstan, Uzbek and Kirgizstan. So they all the time support me in my job. I have my best friend, he's chief of a big factory, Anto Quinott. In both space and English, Professor Rehedoff, he wrote a long time of his national space agency and he has a big experience about making many, many things that he wrote on space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have any of his payloads flown on Mir or a spaceship?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 17.445568960325485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you -- Connie talked about the -- this -- is it Zirba Space Center, the professor that you had there, the academian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, mine is northeast Uzbek, but I was born in Kirgizstan. So Uzbek -- I have many Uzbek friends in Kazakhstan, Uzbek and Kirgizstan. So they all the time support me in my job. I have my best friend, he's chief of a big factory, Anto Quinott. In both space and English, Professor Rehedoff, he wrote a long time of his national space agency and he has a big experience about making many, many things that he wrote on space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have any of his payloads flown on Mir or a spaceship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. Uzbekstan and Kirgizstan became a freedom countries. So now each country has some difficulties with financing. So now they can't -- my thought here, they couldn't make something -- I mean, payload. So I hope in future experience they will do the same as USA and Russia and other countries reach space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I guess since your town was on the border and you had ties to both countries, you kind of bring them together by your space flight then?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.383965511472761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, mine is northeast Uzbek, but I was born in Kirgizstan. So Uzbek -- I have many Uzbek friends in Kazakhstan, Uzbek and Kirgizstan. So they all the time support me in my job. I have my best friend, he's chief of a big factory, Anto Quinott. In both space and English, Professor Rehedoff, he wrote a long time of his national space agency and he has a big experience about making many, many things that he wrote on space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have any of his payloads flown on Mir or a spaceship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. Uzbekstan and Kirgizstan became a freedom countries. So now each country has some difficulties with financing. So now they can't -- my thought here, they couldn't make something -- I mean, payload. So I hope in future experience they will do the same as USA and Russia and other countries reach space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I guess since your town was on the border and you had ties to both countries, you kind of bring them together by your space flight then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But, you know, many years ago, about 70, maybe 80 years ago, it was one country, Tukistan. It was not Uzbekstan, Kirgizstan, Kazakhstan, Molodechnostan, Romania. It was one country, Tukistan. So after the revolution, it was necessary to make different states as in USA states and grow up five countries in Middle Asia, Uzbekestan, Kirgizstan, Kazahkstan, Molodechnostan, and Romanistan. My flight, of course, do some things during two countries -- two or three, maybe. I was born in Kirgizstan, nationality Uzbek and I'm a Russian citizen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. The Question No. 3 here says: When did you decide to apply for the cosmonaut training program? How did that come about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.204406123858623, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. Uzbekstan and Kirgizstan became a freedom countries. So now each country has some difficulties with financing. So now they can't -- my thought here, they couldn't make something -- I mean, payload. So I hope in future experience they will do the same as USA and Russia and other countries reach space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I guess since your town was on the border and you had ties to both countries, you kind of bring them together by your space flight then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But, you know, many years ago, about 70, maybe 80 years ago, it was one country, Tukistan. It was not Uzbekstan, Kirgizstan, Kazakhstan, Molodechnostan, Romania. It was one country, Tukistan. So after the revolution, it was necessary to make different states as in USA states and grow up five countries in Middle Asia, Uzbekestan, Kirgizstan, Kazahkstan, Molodechnostan, and Romanistan. My flight, of course, do some things during two countries -- two or three, maybe. I was born in Kirgizstan, nationality Uzbek and I'm a Russian citizen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. The Question No. 3 here says: When did you decide to apply for the cosmonaut training program? How did that come about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, every child when he is at school, each child wants to make something special in life. The same, I wanted to become a cosmonaut in my childhood. So it was my dream, and I everything, first of all, to become a pilot military pilot. After that, I did my best to enter cosmonaut office in my position of space. I'm very happy that I came to Houston and had such a great flight with American colleagues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The next question is somewhat related. You might have answered part of it. Explain the cosmonaut selection process, the educational requirements. You talked a little bit about the military flight experiment -- experience. I know you were a MiG-21 pilot. Did all that work together into how the selection process went?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.89432854797361, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, every child when he is at school, each child wants to make something special in life. The same, I wanted to become a cosmonaut in my childhood. So it was my dream, and I everything, first of all, to become a pilot military pilot. After that, I did my best to enter cosmonaut office in my position of space. I'm very happy that I came to Houston and had such a great flight with American colleagues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The next question is somewhat related. You might have answered part of it. Explain the cosmonaut selection process, the educational requirements. You talked a little bit about the military flight experiment -- experience. I know you were a MiG-21 pilot. Did all that work together into how the selection process went?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. First of all, selection process come from combat unit. We have a commission that selected pilots. They go in all combat units and they selected people that had the big experience of flying, very dedicated and, of course, very -- people who want to make -- work to become cosmonaut. Of course, we have several commissions. Of course, first of all, it's a medical commission. Of course, it's a test of your education, how you can work with -- you know, in space, equipment is very new and it's very devoted things. So it's best to check your dedication. And, of course, we have many other commissions that it's necessary to go through. It's a long process, and it usually takes about two years to enter the cosmonaut office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is kind of a personal question. What's your favorite airplane to fly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, every plane. Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You like all flying; no favorite planes?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.438142831081788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. First of all, selection process come from combat unit. We have a commission that selected pilots. They go in all combat units and they selected people that had the big experience of flying, very dedicated and, of course, very -- people who want to make -- work to become cosmonaut. Of course, we have several commissions. Of course, first of all, it's a medical commission. Of course, it's a test of your education, how you can work with -- you know, in space, equipment is very new and it's very devoted things. So it's best to check your dedication. And, of course, we have many other commissions that it's necessary to go through. It's a long process, and it usually takes about two years to enter the cosmonaut office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is kind of a personal question. What's your favorite airplane to fly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, every plane. Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You like all flying; no favorite planes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Of course, I fly L-39, T-38 and MiG-21. So I would say my favorite plane is that I wanted to fly MiG-29 and the T-27."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes. The newest Russian airplane?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.713756581582454, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Of course, I fly L-39, T-38 and MiG-21. So I would say my favorite plane is that I wanted to fly MiG-29 and the T-27."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes. The newest Russian airplane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It's the best Russian airplane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very fast?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, maybe not compared to space, but very fast in relation to how high you fly."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.348618423980505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It's the best Russian airplane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very fast?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, maybe not compared to space, but very fast in relation to how high you fly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I liked, of course, the T-38. Very nice plane. I've flown it several times. I liked it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've flown in the T-38. A very comfortable airplane."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.05402047108945, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, maybe not compared to space, but very fast in relation to how high you fly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I liked, of course, the T-38. Very nice plane. I've flown it several times. I liked it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've flown in the T-38. A very comfortable airplane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk a little bit about how the Space Shuttle -- the take-off was and the landing and kind of your experience, how you felt?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.726689412321611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I liked, of course, the T-38. Very nice plane. I've flown it several times. I liked it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I've flown in the T-38. A very comfortable airplane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk a little bit about how the Space Shuttle -- the take-off was and the landing and kind of your experience, how you felt?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The launch was very great. I, of course, expected that it will be such way, but the real launch was so great. Of course, we worried some we will launch on time because launch day was -- there was a --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The weather was in question?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.958875817681001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The launch was very great. I, of course, expected that it will be such way, but the real launch was so great. Of course, we worried some we will launch on time because launch day was -- there was a --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The weather was in question?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Launch day was bad and the possibilities of the launch was 40 percent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we worried, first of all, about weather. And when it was time to launch, everything get clear. It was eventually launched on time. Of course, we were very happy and we did the launch -- we waited zero gravity. Of course, after the separation, the actual time when we felt zero gravity, it was great. I can't explain how it was because at that time I felt that I made my dream because..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You knew you were in space?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.620973130756668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Launch day was bad and the possibilities of the launch was 40 percent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we worried, first of all, about weather. And when it was time to launch, everything get clear. It was eventually launched on time. Of course, we were very happy and we did the launch -- we waited zero gravity. Of course, after the separation, the actual time when we felt zero gravity, it was great. I can't explain how it was because at that time I felt that I made my dream because..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You knew you were in space?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked a long time and I waited a long time to be in space. So I was very happy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It would be a neat feeling. We looked at your bio. It talked about your map-making experience. Did that -- I'm probably going to pronounce this wrong -- chronography?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.356636811951853, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we worried, first of all, about weather. And when it was time to launch, everything get clear. It was eventually launched on time. Of course, we were very happy and we did the launch -- we waited zero gravity. Of course, after the separation, the actual time when we felt zero gravity, it was great. I can't explain how it was because at that time I felt that I made my dream because..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You knew you were in space?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked a long time and I waited a long time to be in space. So I was very happy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It would be a neat feeling. We looked at your bio. It talked about your map-making experience. Did that -- I'm probably going to pronounce this wrong -- chronography?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that help you identify land masses when you were on orbit, seeing the elevation?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.0629297910576145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked a long time and I waited a long time to be in space. So I was very happy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It would be a neat feeling. We looked at your bio. It talked about your map-making experience. Did that -- I'm probably going to pronounce this wrong -- chronography?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that help you identify land masses when you were on orbit, seeing the elevation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, our daytime work time was planned. Every hour was planned by, you know, we have flight plan and we had jobs it was necessary to do. Of course, our flight was so short and we were just beginning to understand everything in space and to see earth to make -- to become -- we became -- we understand what's going wrong with us. Our flight was so short. And all of my chronography education, of course, helped me to observe to make pictures, to make video and to make our flight very successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the pictures, that one of your assignments was to photograph the rendezvous and document it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.847699767841794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that help you identify land masses when you were on orbit, seeing the elevation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, our daytime work time was planned. Every hour was planned by, you know, we have flight plan and we had jobs it was necessary to do. Of course, our flight was so short and we were just beginning to understand everything in space and to see earth to make -- to become -- we became -- we understand what's going wrong with us. Our flight was so short. And all of my chronography education, of course, helped me to observe to make pictures, to make video and to make our flight very successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the pictures, that one of your assignments was to photograph the rendezvous and document it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in one of the small Shuttle windows filming this?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.219382429434313, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in one of the small Shuttle windows filming this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I stayed behind our commander, Terry Wilcutt, and tried to make pictures because it was my job to make it. But during the rendezvous, I stayed in the \"mid test\" because it's a very important part of our flight. So it was necessary to Terry, it was necessary to control the Shuttle and make a document. So I tried to not interfere here because in flight test many people -- you know, we, of course, can --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very crowded?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Crowded, yes. We can make pictures during the on-looking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to turn upside down and stay to the ceiling while he was --"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.021536032704793, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I stayed behind our commander, Terry Wilcutt, and tried to make pictures because it was my job to make it. But during the rendezvous, I stayed in the \"mid test\" because it's a very important part of our flight. So it was necessary to Terry, it was necessary to control the Shuttle and make a document. So I tried to not interfere here because in flight test many people -- you know, we, of course, can --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very crowded?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Crowded, yes. We can make pictures during the on-looking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to turn upside down and stay to the ceiling while he was --"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "-- at the controls?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.912817814116437, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Crowded, yes. We can make pictures during the on-looking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to turn upside down and stay to the ceiling while he was --"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "-- at the controls?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did pictures during the onlooking where I fly around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of the other experiments that -- I see you worked with the transferring of frozen storage and then the station dosimeter exchange on the Mir?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.903130904573818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "-- at the controls?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did pictures during the onlooking where I fly around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of the other experiments that -- I see you worked with the transferring of frozen storage and then the station dosimeter exchange on the Mir?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did those operations go?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.003478782859798, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did pictures during the onlooking where I fly around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of the other experiments that -- I see you worked with the transferring of frozen storage and then the station dosimeter exchange on the Mir?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did those operations go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very easy because we trained many times in a simulator and I had very experienced instructors that taught me. It was very easy to make the job and it was very pleasant to make the job because, you know, everything that you did -- that I did in space, it will stay in my memory a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you talked a little bit about this, how was the training at the Johnson Space Center here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.226087536510887, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did those operations go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very easy because we trained many times in a simulator and I had very experienced instructors that taught me. It was very easy to make the job and it was very pleasant to make the job because, you know, everything that you did -- that I did in space, it will stay in my memory a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you talked a little bit about this, how was the training at the Johnson Space Center here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I came to Houston, of course, I can't understand at that time English, and my English was not so good. Of course --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's very good now."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.584541707234319, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very easy because we trained many times in a simulator and I had very experienced instructors that taught me. It was very easy to make the job and it was very pleasant to make the job because, you know, everything that you did -- that I did in space, it will stay in my memory a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you talked a little bit about this, how was the training at the Johnson Space Center here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I came to Houston, of course, I can't understand at that time English, and my English was not so good. Of course --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's very good now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. Our training process is some different than American training process. So I had some problems. I tried -- it was necessary to learn everything for myself most of the time and to make -- have training with crew. I started learned everything for myself. And I want to say big thanks to our crew members because they helped me to get into the program and understand everything, understand everything. Mostly all my language, my training is connected with our crew, because without the crew, I would be nothing. In our crew is so nice colleagues. I have so nice colleagues and they worked for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know Bonnie Dunbar was there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.760601896927021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I came to Houston, of course, I can't understand at that time English, and my English was not so good. Of course --"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's very good now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. Our training process is some different than American training process. So I had some problems. I tried -- it was necessary to learn everything for myself most of the time and to make -- have training with crew. I started learned everything for myself. And I want to say big thanks to our crew members because they helped me to get into the program and understand everything, understand everything. Mostly all my language, my training is connected with our crew, because without the crew, I would be nothing. In our crew is so nice colleagues. I have so nice colleagues and they worked for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know Bonnie Dunbar was there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bonnie Dunbar, Terry Wilcutt, Joe Edwards, Jim Reilly, Mike Anderson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I guess Andy Thomas and Bonnie Dunbar had both trained in Gagarin Space Center in Moscow?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.845113218807802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. Our training process is some different than American training process. So I had some problems. I tried -- it was necessary to learn everything for myself most of the time and to make -- have training with crew. I started learned everything for myself. And I want to say big thanks to our crew members because they helped me to get into the program and understand everything, understand everything. Mostly all my language, my training is connected with our crew, because without the crew, I would be nothing. In our crew is so nice colleagues. I have so nice colleagues and they worked for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know Bonnie Dunbar was there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bonnie Dunbar, Terry Wilcutt, Joe Edwards, Jim Reilly, Mike Anderson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I guess Andy Thomas and Bonnie Dunbar had both trained in Gagarin Space Center in Moscow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Bonnie, she speaks very well in Russian, and all the time she helped me. It was very pleasant to work with Bonnie Dunbar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just a follow-on question to that is, how was the training at the Kennedy Space Center, the Shuttle escape type training or anything like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.716792465342001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bonnie Dunbar, Terry Wilcutt, Joe Edwards, Jim Reilly, Mike Anderson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I guess Andy Thomas and Bonnie Dunbar had both trained in Gagarin Space Center in Moscow?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Bonnie, she speaks very well in Russian, and all the time she helped me. It was very pleasant to work with Bonnie Dunbar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just a follow-on question to that is, how was the training at the Kennedy Space Center, the Shuttle escape type training or anything like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was unforgettable for me because it was great to see everything in Florida in the KSC. We trained several times in the KSC and, of course, even the OR crew. Before we went there, we had training in Houston. Of course, it was very easy. And the instructors, they helped a lot. They showed everything. They made sure that everything will be great with such instructors, with such training because I don't -- it was great, great training. KSC and JSC I liked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The next question I think you've almost answered by how well you've done the interview. Was the difference in language a hard problem for you to overcome? It seems like you've already overcome that. But go ahead and answer how you did that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.574213850380001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Bonnie, she speaks very well in Russian, and all the time she helped me. It was very pleasant to work with Bonnie Dunbar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just a follow-on question to that is, how was the training at the Kennedy Space Center, the Shuttle escape type training or anything like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was unforgettable for me because it was great to see everything in Florida in the KSC. We trained several times in the KSC and, of course, even the OR crew. Before we went there, we had training in Houston. Of course, it was very easy. And the instructors, they helped a lot. They showed everything. They made sure that everything will be great with such instructors, with such training because I don't -- it was great, great training. KSC and JSC I liked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The next question I think you've almost answered by how well you've done the interview. Was the difference in language a hard problem for you to overcome? It seems like you've already overcome that. But go ahead and answer how you did that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, my staying was a problem because I learned English not so long time. I have base of grammar and, of course, practice in USA, the USA in trying to speak everything English and brush up my English very well. The second part, I begin to understand -- I began to understand everything and speak English more clear. I think that practice was very big helper, helper to my training that went into our crew. Of course, I think the crew helped me a lot because I met many difficulties in training, and our crew at times with great pleasure helped me with anything I asked of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's important that the crew works as a team. It sounds like your crew is very close-knit."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.526904278200002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was unforgettable for me because it was great to see everything in Florida in the KSC. We trained several times in the KSC and, of course, even the OR crew. Before we went there, we had training in Houston. Of course, it was very easy. And the instructors, they helped a lot. They showed everything. They made sure that everything will be great with such instructors, with such training because I don't -- it was great, great training. KSC and JSC I liked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The next question I think you've almost answered by how well you've done the interview. Was the difference in language a hard problem for you to overcome? It seems like you've already overcome that. But go ahead and answer how you did that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, my staying was a problem because I learned English not so long time. I have base of grammar and, of course, practice in USA, the USA in trying to speak everything English and brush up my English very well. The second part, I begin to understand -- I began to understand everything and speak English more clear. I think that practice was very big helper, helper to my training that went into our crew. Of course, I think the crew helped me a lot because I met many difficulties in training, and our crew at times with great pleasure helped me with anything I asked of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's important that the crew works as a team. It sounds like your crew is very close-knit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Another Shuttle question is, how did the Shuttle launch and re-entry suit fit? Was it comfortable? Was it bulky?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.585449198000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, my staying was a problem because I learned English not so long time. I have base of grammar and, of course, practice in USA, the USA in trying to speak everything English and brush up my English very well. The second part, I begin to understand -- I began to understand everything and speak English more clear. I think that practice was very big helper, helper to my training that went into our crew. Of course, I think the crew helped me a lot because I met many difficulties in training, and our crew at times with great pleasure helped me with anything I asked of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's important that the crew works as a team. It sounds like your crew is very close-knit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Another Shuttle question is, how did the Shuttle launch and re-entry suit fit? Was it comfortable? Was it bulky?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, if I say about suit, of course, it suits me and it was necessary to wear. It's law. But I felt very comfortable. Of course, we have different suits in Russia than USA. I think that it's a nice suit and it help in \"demonstration.\" So I like -- I felt comfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get to go up on the KC135 and do any training, putting your suit on and off?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.761610220000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Another Shuttle question is, how did the Shuttle launch and re-entry suit fit? Was it comfortable? Was it bulky?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, if I say about suit, of course, it suits me and it was necessary to wear. It's law. But I felt very comfortable. Of course, we have different suits in Russia than USA. I think that it's a nice suit and it help in \"demonstration.\" So I like -- I felt comfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get to go up on the KC135 and do any training, putting your suit on and off?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We trained on many times to wear it on, off and get used to -- used to the space suit. It was very easy and I did it with great pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It looked difficult on the flights how to get it on and off. So I was just curious if it was like that in orbit."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.0684558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, if I say about suit, of course, it suits me and it was necessary to wear. It's law. But I felt very comfortable. Of course, we have different suits in Russia than USA. I think that it's a nice suit and it help in \"demonstration.\" So I like -- I felt comfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get to go up on the KC135 and do any training, putting your suit on and off?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We trained on many times to wear it on, off and get used to -- used to the space suit. It was very easy and I did it with great pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It looked difficult on the flights how to get it on and off. So I was just curious if it was like that in orbit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On orbit, we helped each other to take off and take on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You-all helped each other then. That's very important. Okay. The next question is, what was it like to see the Mir for the first time out the Shuttle window?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.076062, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We trained on many times to wear it on, off and get used to -- used to the space suit. It was very easy and I did it with great pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It looked difficult on the flights how to get it on and off. So I was just curious if it was like that in orbit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On orbit, we helped each other to take off and take on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You-all helped each other then. That's very important. Okay. The next question is, what was it like to see the Mir for the first time out the Shuttle window?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course. Of course, it was my dream to see Mir Station, real Mir Station in space. I've been trained for seven years and I studied a lot about Mir Station and trained long, a lot. Of course, it was great to see Mir Station from long distance. It was so beautiful view and we saw Mir Station about more than ten miles. It was a little point. We got closer and closer and the station get bigger, bigger with the flow terminator. Sunset, after the sun set, it become as a star. It was so big star. It's unforgettable. It's so beautiful. I never forget this view. Of course, the writing document to see Mir Station closer, it was our job. And you have to -- you had to go see Mir Station."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The next question is about after the docking. How exciting was the reunion of your fellow cosmonauts after you docked and how hard was it to leave them after such a short visit?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.42, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Between out work on earth, we made sure before flight that everything will resolve any problem. And our work in space was a pleasure. We did everything so easy. So understandable was everything. Mir Station crew helped us. Jim Reilly is the person responsible for everything that we transferred. He checked everything and he controlled us to do everything, to make transfers. He worked with Pavel Vinogradov and with me. We do it -- did it with great pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think you talked about this a little bit, too, but I'll ask it again. Are you looking forward to visiting the Mir, the International Space Station, in the future either on the Space Shuttle or the Soyuz?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because this mission was so short for me and I am waiting next flight. I've assigned to pick up crew to the Mir Station. I will begin training in autumn this year. Of course, it's my job, it's my profession. I have to fly and work, of course, with my colleagues from USA and from other countries."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a long flight --"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "-- from the ground on commercial airline. What was your most memorable story or experience about your Space Shuttle flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because this mission was so short for me and I am waiting next flight. I've assigned to pick up crew to the Mir Station. I will begin training in autumn this year. Of course, it's my job, it's my profession. I have to fly and work, of course, with my colleagues from USA and from other countries."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a long flight --"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "-- from the ground on commercial airline. What was your most memorable story or experience about your Space Shuttle flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, our flight was so beautiful and unforgettable. Every minute of staying on the Shuttle and station was unforgettable for me. Every minute I remember. All flight time is good story for me. I remember every minute what we did there, how it was. I can't choose something from our -- something main from our flight. Our flight from launch to landing was great and extraordinary for me. It's a big memory, each member, our crew members, how it was and how it was beautiful to work together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. That's special. What did you miss the most while you were away from your home land?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "-- from the ground on commercial airline. What was your most memorable story or experience about your Space Shuttle flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, our flight was so beautiful and unforgettable. Every minute of staying on the Shuttle and station was unforgettable for me. Every minute I remember. All flight time is good story for me. I remember every minute what we did there, how it was. I can't choose something from our -- something main from our flight. Our flight from launch to landing was great and extraordinary for me. It's a big memory, each member, our crew members, how it was and how it was beautiful to work together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. That's special. What did you miss the most while you were away from your home land?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, I have many friends here and I get used to work with my American colleagues. I like Houston. It was great training for me, a great experience in my life. Of course, always home is best. So I miss my children because they didn't come to Houston. My wife came and stayed in Houston two months. I didn't see my daughter and son for seven months, and I'm waiting to see them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a long time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, our flight was so beautiful and unforgettable. Every minute of staying on the Shuttle and station was unforgettable for me. Every minute I remember. All flight time is good story for me. I remember every minute what we did there, how it was. I can't choose something from our -- something main from our flight. Our flight from launch to landing was great and extraordinary for me. It's a big memory, each member, our crew members, how it was and how it was beautiful to work together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. That's special. What did you miss the most while you were away from your home land?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, I have many friends here and I get used to work with my American colleagues. I like Houston. It was great training for me, a great experience in my life. Of course, always home is best. So I miss my children because they didn't come to Houston. My wife came and stayed in Houston two months. I didn't see my daughter and son for seven months, and I'm waiting to see them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a long time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The day after tomorrow. I'm leaving tomorrow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there -- that's all the formal questions I had. Is there anything that you wanted to add or ask, you know, the camera or the people?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, I have many friends here and I get used to work with my American colleagues. I like Houston. It was great training for me, a great experience in my life. Of course, always home is best. So I miss my children because they didn't come to Houston. My wife came and stayed in Houston two months. I didn't see my daughter and son for seven months, and I'm waiting to see them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a long time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The day after tomorrow. I'm leaving tomorrow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there -- that's all the formal questions I had. Is there anything that you wanted to add or ask, you know, the camera or the people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say that my training in Houston is a big experience in my life. I made many friends. It was a pleasure to stay in Houston and training. I met very experienced instructors, very good people that they helped me to make my flight very successful, and I appreciate everybody who worked with me. So thank you everybody for training me and helping to become such as I am now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We enjoyed having you by and having you in this country here. You're a very special person, and we appreciate you doing this interview for us."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00799:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The day after tomorrow. I'm leaving tomorrow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there -- that's all the formal questions I had. Is there anything that you wanted to add or ask, you know, the camera or the people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say that my training in Houston is a big experience in my life. I made many friends. It was a pleasure to stay in Houston and training. I met very experienced instructors, very good people that they helped me to make my flight very successful, and I appreciate everybody who worked with me. So thank you everybody for training me and helping to become such as I am now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We enjoyed having you by and having you in this country here. You're a very special person, and we appreciate you doing this interview for us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll remember this just as much as you remember your flight, I'm sure."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00353:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 86.79890589217699, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The function was the same. The systems were different. You still had flight dynamics. You still had Retrofire Officers, Flight Director, surgeon, the network guy. Now, but because the Skylab systems were a little different, they called them something different, but essentially you’re still—and there was a Command Module up there, so there they essentially—it was sort of dormant, and they would tell this position, “Okay, you’re responsible for the—.” There were only three measurements in which if they [the measurements] do this, then call somebody.\\n\\n Or they probably had somebody there with the experience, anyway, like Gary [E.] Coen or somebody like that, that had come off the command module team. All these Flight Controllers, where they come from, they came from the guys who had done Apollo. There were very few just brand-new people in it, and hardly anybody just plain off the street, except there were probably some contractors that had come in that were Skylab-unique. And then there was [NASA] Marshall [Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Alabama], and the data was shipped to Marshall, too, and so they had land lines, and you’d communicate with them as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Since you mentioned that you did come in a little later and you weren’t as involved in the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The original planning itself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—maybe the handbooks and the mission rules."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was not [involved in the development of Skylab handbooks and mission rules]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved, since you came in later, with SMEAT [Skylab Medical Experiments Altitude Test] at all, or were you aware of what was going on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00353:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 36, "return_to_go": 88.66545099130776, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The original planning itself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—maybe the handbooks and the mission rules."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was not [involved in the development of Skylab handbooks and mission rules]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved, since you came in later, with SMEAT [Skylab Medical Experiments Altitude Test] at all, or were you aware of what was going on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "SMEAT was the device that the biomeds use in their preflight training. There was apparently a 45-day SMEAT test, which was just like being on orbit, but that was before I came in, so that was over with by the time I got there. I think Bob [Robert L.] Crippen and the doctor, [William E.] Thornton were involved in that. The other [FCT] guys, John [T.] Cox and Bob [Robert H.] Heselmeyer and Bob [Robert] White and Lou [Louis A.] DeLuca, they were the other biomeds, and they were involved in that SMEAT testing. But, yes, it would have been very helpful to have been involved in that, in terms of being very familiar, having it internalized before you go into the flight. Without that it’s sort of top level, and you have to refer to the books or something like that more often if you haven’t internalized it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After Skylab you were appointed to the Mechanical and Support Systems Section."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00353:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 57.28777640048791, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think somewhere in there I was a section head, and then Don Puddy was Systems Division Chief, and I came down to be his Technical Assistant. That was a fun job. I really enjoyed that. Somewhere in there I think he sent me off to—NASA has what they call a Management Education Program, which is a two-week session at [NASA] Wallops [Flight Facility, Wallops Island, Virginia], and he sent me off to that, which was really a very good experience for me at the time.\\n\\n Afterwards I came back and, like I said, I really enjoyed being Technical Assistant, because I signed off on mission rules for the division, reviewed them and sent them on to that board. For the Crew Procedures Control Board, I reviewed all the procedures, Form 482 procedures that we submitted, and I was on that board and went to all the PRCBs [Program Requirements Control Board]. It was a lot of fun, a technical kind of thing. I didn’t get to do console, except as SPAN [Spacecraft Analysis] or something like that. But it was a broadening experience.\\n\\n Then I was selected as Branch Chief of one of the branches."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in that position as a Technical Assistant during the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n time period?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was a Branch Chief."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you were already a Branch Chief then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had gone down to be Branch Chief of the Data Processing Systems Branch, which is the INCOs and DPS [Data Processing Systems] guys and Spacelab computer guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when the accident happened, the launch?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00353:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 52.957067141931475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I led the Mishap Investigation Board for an incident that happened out in Building 350, I think it was they [Engineering] were doing a fuel cell test and were wrapping up the test. It [fuel cell] caught on fire, something like that. So Mr. Abbey wanted it looked into. He called it a mishap, so I got nominated to go lead that team, which I did, which was a great experience, as it turned out, for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After that period of time and then after you were the chief of the simulator, you went in 2001 as Chief of Advanced Operations and Development Division."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the division we formed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was the one you formed from that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From the Simulator Development and from the current MCC, which George [W.] Bull was head of, and another one, which was Advanced Projects or something like that. Those three divisions were merged into one, and then I ended up with two branches and an office, because I knew the training facility was going to be turned over to another organization. So I just made that as an office, because it was easier to abolish an office than it was to abolish a branch. It turns out it’s not that much different, but I thought it made sense at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved with the upgrade of the Mission Control Center during that time in 2001?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00353:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 20, "return_to_go": 58.84118571325719, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the division we formed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was the one you formed from that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From the Simulator Development and from the current MCC, which George [W.] Bull was head of, and another one, which was Advanced Projects or something like that. Those three divisions were merged into one, and then I ended up with two branches and an office, because I knew the training facility was going to be turned over to another organization. So I just made that as an office, because it was easier to abolish an office than it was to abolish a branch. It turns out it’s not that much different, but I thought it made sense at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved with the upgrade of the Mission Control Center during that time in 2001?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Upgrade. A big upgrade—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the Compaq workstations. We found a press release."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00353:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 55.61985324380001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you when that happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was running the Control Center environment. What I did at the time it went down is just thought, “Well, we’ve still got Station up there, so we can’t just let everything stop.” When\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n happened, everything [in the MCC] stopped. You freeze everything and just wait until somebody—well, we couldn’t do that, because we were supporting Station, so we had another operation ongoing.\\n\\n We had to isolate what we needed [for the investigation], because under the ground rules certain things have to be frozen. So the documentation on console at the time, that’s boxed up and kept under somebody’s oversight. You can get it out, but you have to sign for it. It’s like forensic evidence.\\n\\n Then [as time goes by] you have a Return-to-Flight environment where you’ve got the program, Shuttle Program, “We want a new this. We want that. We have a new MER [Mission Evaluation Room] concept, and we want this and we want this.” So we had to build all of that in there [the MCC environment] while we’re doing an ongoing operation and not disrupt the one with the other.\\n\\n So that was what I was doing just trying to keep the shop going, and while all this other stuff is going on around us, and try to not get hung up too much. I went to the Center [management] to say, “We need to release this because of this reason, that reason. We can’t keep the software frozen because of this reason or that reason. So we need an approval,” and I went through the rationale as to why that was okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you retire?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "January of 2006."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What led to your retirement at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.909861987444167, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The astronauts were over there all along. The astronauts would participate in the testing. When they had a problem, believe me, we would listen to what they had to say, and address those concerns. They were very conscientious people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you tell us about or give an example of some of those simulations that you would run over in the SAIL?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The SAIL was not really a simulation, it was testing the real flight software that was going to fly. As new software would come out, we would test that new software to see if we could find any problems, which we certainly did. We went on through that testing. Then also we would be online when a mission was going to fly. We were there with the flight software loaded. If they had any problems, we would be there to help resolve it, because we had the same software running that they had on the computer.\\n\\n I remember one time Cliff had me go up to brief Chris Kraft. I got up to give the presentation, and I was talking about the different software for the Orbiter. He was sitting there looking down, and I didn’t know if he was listening or not. I was talking about the automation of the cryo [cryogenic] detanking process. When I finished, he said, “Cliff, that’s interesting. How long is it going to take us to get that ready to go?” Cliff sat forward and said, “Well, we’ve used it for the last three missions.” Mr. Kraft seemed surprised."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the SAIL or the Avionics Systems Lab supporting real-time missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was running and online when the mission was going. If there were any problems, we were able to jump in and sort them out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you ever called on to solve any problems when the Shuttle was in orbit?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.9998296141286, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was running and online when the mission was going. If there were any problems, we were able to jump in and sort them out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you ever called on to solve any problems when the Shuttle was in orbit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. I don’t remember what they were, but when they’d have a problem at Kennedy, we’d stop and try to recreate it to see if it was a problem in the avionics or a problem elsewhere. In my opinion, there were very few problems with the flight avionics software because of all that integrated testing and the commonality between all the test areas. We would check out the Lunar Modules at Grumman and the Command and Service Module [CSM] in Downey, California. We would check out the flight system at Kennedy Space Center, which would be the integrated Command and Service Module and the Lunar Modules. A lot of people fought it, but that was the right way to go in my opinion. Rather than having everybody have something different. You couldn’t trace it and follow it and support it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you tell us about some of the tests that you did before the Shuttle flew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. We would run the tests of the launch and show how the software worked through the launch period. We would check the backup computer in case there was a failure in one of the computers. Did the backup computer take over? If they had a problem down at the Kennedy Space Center, then we would get the information and try to reproduce that problem to see if it was an avionics problem or what it was. I think it was a magnificent experience. I’m glad I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s an amazing facility as you walk through and see all of the wiring for the Orbiter."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.6911476717637, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. We would run the tests of the launch and show how the software worked through the launch period. We would check the backup computer in case there was a failure in one of the computers. Did the backup computer take over? If they had a problem down at the Kennedy Space Center, then we would get the information and try to reproduce that problem to see if it was an avionics problem or what it was. I think it was a magnificent experience. I’m glad I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s an amazing facility as you walk through and see all of the wiring for the Orbiter."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t been there for years, but somebody wanted to move SAIL so they could do something else there. I won’t say who. I sat and listened to the engineering director and what all they wanted to do. Got through and the engineering director turned to me, and he said, “Well, what do you think Irv?” I said, “Can’t do it. If you move all those cables, it will take years to get it back up. We won’t be able to support the program.” He said, “Okay. I guess that settles that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take to build this facility that was used for STS-1 and also the ALT [Approach and Landing] Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember how long. As things would come along, and they were building the computers for the flight system, we would get copies of the latest updates and integrate them into the lab. We would keep up the testing of that to see before they flew it that it worked all right. SAIL evolved as the Shuttle evolved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How early were you testing flight software for Apollo and Shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 25.21238630195967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t been there for years, but somebody wanted to move SAIL so they could do something else there. I won’t say who. I sat and listened to the engineering director and what all they wanted to do. Got through and the engineering director turned to me, and he said, “Well, what do you think Irv?” I said, “Can’t do it. If you move all those cables, it will take years to get it back up. We won’t be able to support the program.” He said, “Okay. I guess that settles that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take to build this facility that was used for STS-1 and also the ALT [Approach and Landing] Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember how long. As things would come along, and they were building the computers for the flight system, we would get copies of the latest updates and integrate them into the lab. We would keep up the testing of that to see before they flew it that it worked all right. SAIL evolved as the Shuttle evolved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How early were you testing flight software for Apollo and Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "From the beginning we were testing whatever the flight software was. We were starting it at Downey on the CSM. They were testing the Lunar Modules at Grumman. We were putting together SAIL to do an integrated test of the Orbiter. As that evolved, we were keeping up with the flight testing as it went along and keeping the SAIL up to date with the latest changes. It was modifications all the time, depending on what we had to do to keep up with the flight system. We were always using the latest software and testing it before they flew it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How closely were you working with North American Rockwell?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3249780723800002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I went to [Marshall Space Flight Center] Huntsville [Alabama] once, and I went to Canada once. Each time I had a detached retina right after those two flights. It slowed me up a bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds painful. One of the questions that I wanted to ask you—it’s been circulating around quite a bit in the Space Shuttle Program—is how the SAIL actually got an OV [Orbiting Vehicle] number, and why it was given the number 95. Do you know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I saw that on your list of questions, and I don’t know the answer. When did it happen, do you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. I sure don’t, but they keep asking us.\n\nCliff would probably know.\n\nCliff who?\n\nCliff Bradford. He lives in Alabama now, but we see him every year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we have an ACE reunion every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Every year we all get together for a run three-day reunion. This year it was held at our house, the day after the 40th reunion held at the Space Center. The group has stayed together all these years and has met in many different states.\n\nIsn’t that nice? How large is the group?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4721978582000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I saw that on your list of questions, and I don’t know the answer. When did it happen, do you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. I sure don’t, but they keep asking us.\n\nCliff would probably know.\n\nCliff who?\n\nCliff Bradford. He lives in Alabama now, but we see him every year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we have an ACE reunion every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Every year we all get together for a run three-day reunion. This year it was held at our house, the day after the 40th reunion held at the Space Center. The group has stayed together all these years and has met in many different states.\n\nIsn’t that nice? How large is the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them were not able to attend every year. There are approximately 20 to 30."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a good size group. Would you tell us how your facility changed when you started working with the Department of Defense and classified flights?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:32", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.635775398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we have an ACE reunion every year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Every year we all get together for a run three-day reunion. This year it was held at our house, the day after the 40th reunion held at the Space Center. The group has stayed together all these years and has met in many different states.\n\nIsn’t that nice? How large is the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them were not able to attend every year. There are approximately 20 to 30."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a good size group. Would you tell us how your facility changed when you started working with the Department of Defense and classified flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know whether I remember that it changed except we tightened up the security to make sure that nobody got in there and nobody got any data. Any data that was recorded was classified and stored appropriately. I don’t remember it really affecting us that much, except for us having to keep classified data and making sure that no one was there that should not have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now one of the things that Greg [C. Blackburn] told us that I thought was interesting was that the facility could be used as a backup for the Mission Control Center. Do you recall that decision?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.81752822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them were not able to attend every year. There are approximately 20 to 30."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a good size group. Would you tell us how your facility changed when you started working with the Department of Defense and classified flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know whether I remember that it changed except we tightened up the security to make sure that nobody got in there and nobody got any data. Any data that was recorded was classified and stored appropriately. I don’t remember it really affecting us that much, except for us having to keep classified data and making sure that no one was there that should not have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now one of the things that Greg [C. Blackburn] told us that I thought was interesting was that the facility could be used as a backup for the Mission Control Center. Do you recall that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember it being talked about, but I don’t remember. I couldn’t comment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s fine. Did you have to reconfigure the facility at all as you accepted new Orbiters into the fleet? First you had the Enterprise, and then Columbia, and then the rest of the fleet came on board. Did that affect you and your facility?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0194758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know whether I remember that it changed except we tightened up the security to make sure that nobody got in there and nobody got any data. Any data that was recorded was classified and stored appropriately. I don’t remember it really affecting us that much, except for us having to keep classified data and making sure that no one was there that should not have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now one of the things that Greg [C. Blackburn] told us that I thought was interesting was that the facility could be used as a backup for the Mission Control Center. Do you recall that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember it being talked about, but I don’t remember. I couldn’t comment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s fine. Did you have to reconfigure the facility at all as you accepted new Orbiters into the fleet? First you had the Enterprise, and then Columbia, and then the rest of the fleet came on board. Did that affect you and your facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, unless the avionics in it changed. The avionics was all standardized. If there was anything that did change, we would test that. But the computer systems, we stuck with the fact that we wanted them all to be standardized so that you didn’t have to worry about all these different configurations coming in to be tested. You’d have to redo everything so the flight data systems and the software was all pretty well standardized. Now there were some subprograms in there that were utilized for the specific mission that you would test, but the basic computer and the computer programs that run it were all standard, unless they did something after I left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did things change after Challenger in any way before you had STS-26 and the Return to Flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.243862, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember it being talked about, but I don’t remember. I couldn’t comment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s fine. Did you have to reconfigure the facility at all as you accepted new Orbiters into the fleet? First you had the Enterprise, and then Columbia, and then the rest of the fleet came on board. Did that affect you and your facility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, unless the avionics in it changed. The avionics was all standardized. If there was anything that did change, we would test that. But the computer systems, we stuck with the fact that we wanted them all to be standardized so that you didn’t have to worry about all these different configurations coming in to be tested. You’d have to redo everything so the flight data systems and the software was all pretty well standardized. Now there were some subprograms in there that were utilized for the specific mission that you would test, but the basic computer and the computer programs that run it were all standard, unless they did something after I left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did things change after Challenger in any way before you had STS-26 and the Return to Flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anything changed after Challenger? Only that there was a lot of additional testing going on to make sure that we hadn’t missed something and it wasn’t the avionics that caused it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about testing? How long might a test take? How many people might work a test? Do you recall from those days?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.49318, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, unless the avionics in it changed. The avionics was all standardized. If there was anything that did change, we would test that. But the computer systems, we stuck with the fact that we wanted them all to be standardized so that you didn’t have to worry about all these different configurations coming in to be tested. You’d have to redo everything so the flight data systems and the software was all pretty well standardized. Now there were some subprograms in there that were utilized for the specific mission that you would test, but the basic computer and the computer programs that run it were all standard, unless they did something after I left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did things change after Challenger in any way before you had STS-26 and the Return to Flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anything changed after Challenger? Only that there was a lot of additional testing going on to make sure that we hadn’t missed something and it wasn’t the avionics that caused it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about testing? How long might a test take? How many people might work a test? Do you recall from those days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would just be a guess, because it varied. It varied depending on the testing, and the complexity of what they were doing, and who they had to get in there. Sometimes we’d have astronauts and sometimes we wouldn’t. We’d have subsystem managers there. It was a place where everybody could participate and was listened to, that includes astronauts, engineers, software people. Their representatives were asked to participate and did participate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was the importance of the SAIL to the Shuttle program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anything changed after Challenger? Only that there was a lot of additional testing going on to make sure that we hadn’t missed something and it wasn’t the avionics that caused it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about testing? How long might a test take? How many people might work a test? Do you recall from those days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would just be a guess, because it varied. It varied depending on the testing, and the complexity of what they were doing, and who they had to get in there. Sometimes we’d have astronauts and sometimes we wouldn’t. We’d have subsystem managers there. It was a place where everybody could participate and was listened to, that includes astronauts, engineers, software people. Their representatives were asked to participate and did participate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was the importance of the SAIL to the Shuttle program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was utilized to test the integrated software and to find any problems before they flew. As far as I know, it was extremely successful in doing that. Without the SAIL, I don’t know how they’d have found these problems. It was a magnificent lab and magnificent people worked there. Of course, that’s an opinion. They might say, “Well, all except Irv.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We heard Doc Pepper. He gave a presentation a few weeks ago on the SAIL. Does his name ring a bell? It’s a very unique name, I thought."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would just be a guess, because it varied. It varied depending on the testing, and the complexity of what they were doing, and who they had to get in there. Sometimes we’d have astronauts and sometimes we wouldn’t. We’d have subsystem managers there. It was a place where everybody could participate and was listened to, that includes astronauts, engineers, software people. Their representatives were asked to participate and did participate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was the importance of the SAIL to the Shuttle program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was utilized to test the integrated software and to find any problems before they flew. As far as I know, it was extremely successful in doing that. Without the SAIL, I don’t know how they’d have found these problems. It was a magnificent lab and magnificent people worked there. Of course, that’s an opinion. They might say, “Well, all except Irv.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We heard Doc Pepper. He gave a presentation a few weeks ago on the SAIL. Does his name ring a bell? It’s a very unique name, I thought."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a patch or some sort of emblem for the facility. Is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.42, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was utilized to test the integrated software and to find any problems before they flew. As far as I know, it was extremely successful in doing that. Without the SAIL, I don’t know how they’d have found these problems. It was a magnificent lab and magnificent people worked there. Of course, that’s an opinion. They might say, “Well, all except Irv.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We heard Doc Pepper. He gave a presentation a few weeks ago on the SAIL. Does his name ring a bell? It’s a very unique name, I thought."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a patch or some sort of emblem for the facility. Is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we have got them at home. Did you bring one?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can bring a patch that you can copy, I’ll be glad to.\n\nGreat! Is there anybody you think we should talk to who might be good to get some more information about the facility itself and its history?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a patch or some sort of emblem for the facility. Is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we have got them at home. Did you bring one?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can bring a patch that you can copy, I’ll be glad to.\n\nGreat! Is there anybody you think we should talk to who might be good to get some more information about the facility itself and its history?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, whether you can get him to do it or not—of course he comes up here working other jobs sometimes–but Cliff Bradford is my hero."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any questions, Rebecca?\n\nMr. Burtzlaff, when you first started you were talking about how you worked for Martin and you were at the Cape. What year was that? When did you start with Martin, and what were you doing for them?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we have got them at home. Did you bring one?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can bring a patch that you can copy, I’ll be glad to.\n\nGreat! Is there anybody you think we should talk to who might be good to get some more information about the facility itself and its history?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, whether you can get him to do it or not—of course he comes up here working other jobs sometimes–but Cliff Bradford is my hero."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any questions, Rebecca?\n\nMr. Burtzlaff, when you first started you were talking about how you worked for Martin and you were at the Cape. What year was that? When did you start with Martin, and what were you doing for them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. I left in late ’64. Graduated college and then worked for them from ’56 to ’64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you doing software programming for them as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:54", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, whether you can get him to do it or not—of course he comes up here working other jobs sometimes–but Cliff Bradford is my hero."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any questions, Rebecca?\n\nMr. Burtzlaff, when you first started you were talking about how you worked for Martin and you were at the Cape. What year was that? When did you start with Martin, and what were you doing for them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. I left in late ’64. Graduated college and then worked for them from ’56 to ’64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you doing software programming for them as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was doing just about everything. Really I was a liaison going to each one of the flights or tests, calling the data back, getting it reduced overnight, and then the next morning presenting it to the Air Force."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had two bosses then: Martin and the Air Force. Was the Air Force your main customer?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. I left in late ’64. Graduated college and then worked for them from ’56 to ’64."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you doing software programming for them as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was doing just about everything. Really I was a liaison going to each one of the flights or tests, calling the data back, getting it reduced overnight, and then the next morning presenting it to the Air Force."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had two bosses then: Martin and the Air Force. Was the Air Force your main customer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Air Force was the customer, yes. I just did whatever I had to do. My boss said, “What are you doing today?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came to Houston was your facility ready to use? You mentioned that you were in the building for a while with the astronauts till they kicked you out. Were the buildings still being constructed during that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was doing just about everything. Really I was a liaison going to each one of the flights or tests, calling the data back, getting it reduced overnight, and then the next morning presenting it to the Air Force."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had two bosses then: Martin and the Air Force. Was the Air Force your main customer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Air Force was the customer, yes. I just did whatever I had to do. My boss said, “What are you doing today?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came to Houston was your facility ready to use? You mentioned that you were in the building for a while with the astronauts till they kicked you out. Were the buildings still being constructed during that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have the SAIL built up by then. We built it up as we went along. We’d get flight hardware from wherever we could get it and put it together, and finally integrated it over a period of time. It was a very complex process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you first heard about the Shuttle being developed? It was such a different spacecraft than what you had worked with."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Air Force was the customer, yes. I just did whatever I had to do. My boss said, “What are you doing today?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came to Houston was your facility ready to use? You mentioned that you were in the building for a while with the astronauts till they kicked you out. Were the buildings still being constructed during that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have the SAIL built up by then. We built it up as we went along. We’d get flight hardware from wherever we could get it and put it together, and finally integrated it over a period of time. It was a very complex process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you first heard about the Shuttle being developed? It was such a different spacecraft than what you had worked with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, bring it on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ready for the challenge, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00061:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn’t have the SAIL built up by then. We built it up as we went along. We’d get flight hardware from wherever we could get it and put it together, and finally integrated it over a period of time. It was a very complex process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts when you first heard about the Shuttle being developed? It was such a different spacecraft than what you had worked with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, bring it on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ready for the challenge, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, that’s what we were there for. To meet the challenge and do the testing and make sure it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It did. That’s all I had, Jennifer.\n\nIs there anything else that you wanted to share with us? Or would you like to share anything with us, Mrs. Burtzlaff? Recollections from the period?\n\nI think it was a great time, because there were several big parties. Some formals and everything was really nice. I can remember once going down to a dinner and dance at big hotel by the Astrodome. There had big ice sculptures on the tables. It was all for the NASA people. I can remember going outside seeing the champion grand steers in our formals. It was just so much fun at the Gilruth Center. There were many picnics and get-togethers. When Irvin retired, they had a huge party. He just got all kinds of memorabilia."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.989789810902163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had always been. I had heard it again and again, just, um, through my interests, it had come up. But a recruiter came to campus my junior year, and I think that really planted the seed for me. Um, I applied the summer going into my senior year of college. So my whole last year of school, I knew, I actually knew where I was supposed to be going. I was initially assigned to Ecuador, and then about a month before I left, the earthquakes hit Ecuador and completely destroyed the infrastructure and part of the country. So, pretty frantically, we got a call that our trip was no longer going. Um.\n\nAnd they gave us three options to decide where else to go, and Malawi was where I ended up. I think it did work out for the best. I absolutely, um, I loved being in Malawi, and I think I probably would have had a great experience in any country, in any program. But, um, it, I think while I was there, it definitely like suited my skills and interests."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you speak Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had been learning Spanish as, as a requirement for the Spanish speaking programs. You need to take language classes and kind of work on your skills. Um, I had been taking it, but as soon as I moved to Malawi and we learned Chichewa there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the Spanish was just gone. Um, I think I would have had to put in work for language anywhere I went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever really learn Chichewa?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.877544234335737, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had been learning Spanish as, as a requirement for the Spanish speaking programs. You need to take language classes and kind of work on your skills. Um, I had been taking it, but as soon as I moved to Malawi and we learned Chichewa there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the Spanish was just gone. Um, I think I would have had to put in work for language anywhere I went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever really learn Chichewa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Chichewa. I, I had never learned it before. I had never learned anything outside of the romance languages. Um, I actually took to it pretty well. I think I really challenged myself to speak with my host family and to practice however much I could. Um, I scored intermediate high on the proficiency test, so I definitely, um, was able to get along in the village once I was placed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. Talk a little bit about where you grew up. Your parents were immigrants to the United States?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 20.975049149261928, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the Spanish was just gone. Um, I think I would have had to put in work for language anywhere I went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever really learn Chichewa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Chichewa. I, I had never learned it before. I had never learned anything outside of the romance languages. Um, I actually took to it pretty well. I think I really challenged myself to speak with my host family and to practice however much I could. Um, I scored intermediate high on the proficiency test, so I definitely, um, was able to get along in the village once I was placed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. Talk a little bit about where you grew up. Your parents were immigrants to the United States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My dad was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, your dad."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.638943499179916, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Chichewa. I, I had never learned it before. I had never learned anything outside of the romance languages. Um, I actually took to it pretty well. I think I really challenged myself to speak with my host family and to practice however much I could. Um, I scored intermediate high on the proficiency test, so I definitely, um, was able to get along in the village once I was placed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. Talk a little bit about where you grew up. Your parents were immigrants to the United States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My dad was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, your dad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. I'm from outside of Boston, born and raised there. My dad was born and raised in Tanzania, and he moved to the country when he was 18 to kind of put himself through college here. And then my mom is from New York, so it's very interesting family dynamics. I think there are a lot of different, um, different ways that my upbringing influenced my commitment to, um, to this type of work specifically and to, you know, I really was committed to giving two years of, at least two years of my life to, um, giving back in, like, such, such a sustainable way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were your parents happy when you joined the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.376603887977687, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My dad was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, your dad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. I'm from outside of Boston, born and raised there. My dad was born and raised in Tanzania, and he moved to the country when he was 18 to kind of put himself through college here. And then my mom is from New York, so it's very interesting family dynamics. I think there are a lot of different, um, different ways that my upbringing influenced my commitment to, um, to this type of work specifically and to, you know, I really was committed to giving two years of, at least two years of my life to, um, giving back in, like, such, such a sustainable way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were your parents happy when you joined the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It took some convincing, I think. I think they eventually understood. But as I think a lot of people, um, might react, their first thoughts were why? Why do you want to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don't you get a job? Why don't you go to grad school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.08511543108632, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep. I'm from outside of Boston, born and raised there. My dad was born and raised in Tanzania, and he moved to the country when he was 18 to kind of put himself through college here. And then my mom is from New York, so it's very interesting family dynamics. I think there are a lot of different, um, different ways that my upbringing influenced my commitment to, um, to this type of work specifically and to, you know, I really was committed to giving two years of, at least two years of my life to, um, giving back in, like, such, such a sustainable way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were your parents happy when you joined the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It took some convincing, I think. I think they eventually understood. But as I think a lot of people, um, might react, their first thoughts were why? Why do you want to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don't you get a job? Why don't you go to grad school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We put you through school. Why? Why are you going to volunteer for two years? I think unfortunately, that's how a lot of people see it. Or, um, if they have, if they're not in my family, they're saying, well, good for you. You can go. Um. I think they saw how much I, like, how excited I was, how much I loved it, and were happy for me to have that experience. Um, I think they were also happy for me to come home. I, um, I was medically separated a few months into service, so my official close of service was January 2017. Um, my colleagues actually, or my, um, the rest of my cohort, the ones who were still there, just had their close of service conference. So I, um, there was a lot of service that I didn't get to, to give or to partake in. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So maybe let's start at the beginning and then you can talk about your evacuation as well and that whole experience. Um, so in college, you knew you were going to Malawi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.98346159009591, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It took some convincing, I think. I think they eventually understood. But as I think a lot of people, um, might react, their first thoughts were why? Why do you want to?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why don't you get a job? Why don't you go to grad school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We put you through school. Why? Why are you going to volunteer for two years? I think unfortunately, that's how a lot of people see it. Or, um, if they have, if they're not in my family, they're saying, well, good for you. You can go. Um. I think they saw how much I, like, how excited I was, how much I loved it, and were happy for me to have that experience. Um, I think they were also happy for me to come home. I, um, I was medically separated a few months into service, so my official close of service was January 2017. Um, my colleagues actually, or my, um, the rest of my cohort, the ones who were still there, just had their close of service conference. So I, um, there was a lot of service that I didn't get to, to give or to partake in. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So maybe let's start at the beginning and then you can talk about your evacuation as well and that whole experience. Um, so in college, you knew you were going to Malawi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew I was going to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ecuador and then, then to Malawi. Um, what was the training? Where did you meet up with others? What was the training like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.981623988995455, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We put you through school. Why? Why are you going to volunteer for two years? I think unfortunately, that's how a lot of people see it. Or, um, if they have, if they're not in my family, they're saying, well, good for you. You can go. Um. I think they saw how much I, like, how excited I was, how much I loved it, and were happy for me to have that experience. Um, I think they were also happy for me to come home. I, um, I was medically separated a few months into service, so my official close of service was January 2017. Um, my colleagues actually, or my, um, the rest of my cohort, the ones who were still there, just had their close of service conference. So I, um, there was a lot of service that I didn't get to, to give or to partake in. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So maybe let's start at the beginning and then you can talk about your evacuation as well and that whole experience. Um, so in college, you knew you were going to Malawi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew I was going to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ecuador and then, then to Malawi. Um, what was the training? Where did you meet up with others? What was the training like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We utilized Facebook primarily in order to introduce ourselves to the other group members. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many were there in your group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 22.201804432217173, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew I was going to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ecuador and then, then to Malawi. Um, what was the training? Where did you meet up with others? What was the training like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We utilized Facebook primarily in order to introduce ourselves to the other group members. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many were there in your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For Ecuador, there were supposed to be, I think it was like 50 or 60. Um, the Facebook page was pretty active because, especially because we were learning Spanish. So some of our assignments were post a video in Spanish, introducing yourself. Um, and I think that helped just to kind of calm a little bit of my nerves initially. Malawi, our initial cohort was 14, 15 maybe. Um, very, very small. And I think because of that, there wasn't as much interaction before we left. In my group, there were two other people who also were supposed to be in Ecuador and then got reassigned to Malawi. So at least I was familiar with a couple of people. But, um, yeah, it's just interesting, I think because we were a smaller group, we didn't need to talk as much before, but we immediately grew close during training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where did you meet up? What? So where did you fly to? Did you meet in this country or did you just meet in Malawi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 19.113116035796857, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We utilized Facebook primarily in order to introduce ourselves to the other group members. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many were there in your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For Ecuador, there were supposed to be, I think it was like 50 or 60. Um, the Facebook page was pretty active because, especially because we were learning Spanish. So some of our assignments were post a video in Spanish, introducing yourself. Um, and I think that helped just to kind of calm a little bit of my nerves initially. Malawi, our initial cohort was 14, 15 maybe. Um, very, very small. And I think because of that, there wasn't as much interaction before we left. In my group, there were two other people who also were supposed to be in Ecuador and then got reassigned to Malawi. So at least I was familiar with a couple of people. But, um, yeah, it's just interesting, I think because we were a smaller group, we didn't need to talk as much before, but we immediately grew close during training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where did you meet up? What? So where did you fly to? Did you meet in this country or did you just meet in Malawi?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. We met in Philadelphia for the first night, um, the very like initial training. And then we flew out of JFK all together. Um, and. I'm trying. I know we were in South Africa. I can't recall where our first layover was, but, um, so we had the plane ride all together and we're kind of through it for this first couple of days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what happened when you got in country? What was the orientation like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.801581797823594, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, I didn't have. So I'm not sure how, um, the application might vary for someone who is initially selected from Malawi. My background, I had had some brief tutoring experience where I had worked with some children before in school settings. Um, nothing too substantial in terms of being a teacher, but I think that was pretty common in Malawi. I think it mostly was people who had had an interest working with kids, or who maybe had studied, um, English in school. Um, the core training took place over the three months of pre- service training, where we took our first look at the Malawian curriculum, took a look at the, at the books, um. And a lot of just discussing teaching methods and that type of environment. No matter what I think, um, there were some people in my group who had had teaching experience, but no teaching."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you all stayed together for three months in, in country before you went out to your villages, is that it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were in the same host village, but each staying with a different family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we were. We met every day from 7:30 to 4:30 for training, would split up into language groups, um, during that time. But we saw each other every day for those three months. Um, but it was up to each of us to kind of go back to each of our families and to make the most of that time with them as well. Um, I think it was a little introduction to being on our own in, in a village, but having the support for those initial months. Um. But because we were such a small group, it helped to have other people there. We, we grew close during that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you think that worked well? Did it ease your anxiety about being in a village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.458742960276043, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we were. We met every day from 7:30 to 4:30 for training, would split up into language groups, um, during that time. But we saw each other every day for those three months. Um, but it was up to each of us to kind of go back to each of our families and to make the most of that time with them as well. Um, I think it was a little introduction to being on our own in, in a village, but having the support for those initial months. Um. But because we were such a small group, it helped to have other people there. We, we grew close during that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you think that worked well? Did it ease your anxiety about being in a village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It definitely eased, it eased the anxiety I had. I don't think I was too concerned about being in a village. Um, once I got was placed in my site, I was thrilled to, to kind of be able to, um, go out and meet people and really, um, make it a home. I tried that kind of from the beginning when I moved, but being in the village was nice because we could help each other. I think for the language especially, that, that was a huge anxiety for everyone. It was a new language for all of us. So having people who are also studying who we could practice with and be beginners with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Before we went home and practiced with fluent Chichewa speakers, um, that was nice. And then just having that support network, I think, it was important for us to establish that because we were a small group. So we were spread all over the country. And I think when you don't see people regularly, it's important to like still feel that closeness with them. Um, in service especially, it's, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you stay in, once you were in your villages, we'll get to that, did you stay in touch with each other? Or how did you stay in touch with each other?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.131600305252311, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had a cell phone. We had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you take your computer with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I didn't really use my computer, but, um, I had a smartphone, so I was able to look up definitions and poems and stuff like that that I ended up using in my teaching as well. Um, I don't know, again, how that would have looked. I think I probably wasn't as creative as I would have been if I didn't have access to that. It certainly, it changed a lot of aspects. It was also interesting because a lot of other people in the village, despite how rural we were and how impoverished the region or the, um, area I was in was, a lot of people did have phones and had social media, and it was interesting being in that type of environment. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So different than the '60s when we were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah, I think, I, um. I would write letters home sometimes and, but never really within country. I started. So I went on a two week training while I was in service and met volunteers from across the continent of Africa, and I actually started being a pen pal with one of them who was serving in Guinea. But yeah, there wasn't much letter writing. I think a lot of people had cell phone service. Some had to travel a bit to get cell phone service, but it definitely was something that was expected of us. Um, the Peace Corps, the staff, they, that's how they got in touch with us. We had forms to submit online. We had, um, people would call us and we would go over what was going on at sites. But so I think it, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's how they stayed in touch with you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.701778116947013, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I didn't really use my computer, but, um, I had a smartphone, so I was able to look up definitions and poems and stuff like that that I ended up using in my teaching as well. Um, I don't know, again, how that would have looked. I think I probably wasn't as creative as I would have been if I didn't have access to that. It certainly, it changed a lot of aspects. It was also interesting because a lot of other people in the village, despite how rural we were and how impoverished the region or the, um, area I was in was, a lot of people did have phones and had social media, and it was interesting being in that type of environment. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So different than the '60s when we were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah, I think, I, um. I would write letters home sometimes and, but never really within country. I started. So I went on a two week training while I was in service and met volunteers from across the continent of Africa, and I actually started being a pen pal with one of them who was serving in Guinea. But yeah, there wasn't much letter writing. I think a lot of people had cell phone service. Some had to travel a bit to get cell phone service, but it definitely was something that was expected of us. Um, the Peace Corps, the staff, they, that's how they got in touch with us. We had forms to submit online. We had, um, people would call us and we would go over what was going on at sites. But so I think it, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's how they stayed in touch with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, did you have to, I've heard from some people that they had to call in every day. Did you have to do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 17.446420129941124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah, I think, I, um. I would write letters home sometimes and, but never really within country. I started. So I went on a two week training while I was in service and met volunteers from across the continent of Africa, and I actually started being a pen pal with one of them who was serving in Guinea. But yeah, there wasn't much letter writing. I think a lot of people had cell phone service. Some had to travel a bit to get cell phone service, but it definitely was something that was expected of us. Um, the Peace Corps, the staff, they, that's how they got in touch with us. We had forms to submit online. We had, um, people would call us and we would go over what was going on at sites. But so I think it, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's how they stayed in touch with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, did you have to, I've heard from some people that they had to call in every day. Did you have to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't have to do that. I think that only came up when there was an issue or we had reached out to them, but there wasn't anything that was like, we need to make sure you're okay, so check in at this time. Um, at least while I was there, there was nothing like that. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you, so you went through the training. And then talk a little bit about assignment to the town you were in and how you got there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.85508326465649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was interesting and definitely something I picked up on right away. But the, the village itself, the people were, they were aware of like life going on outside. They were aware of all of these nice fancy cars, the Peace Corps Land Range Rovers, Land Rovers, um, Land Rovers coming through every day. Malawi draws an insane amount of aid workers and aid money. So, um, you definitely see all of those foreigners coming through. And, um, I think that changed the nature of it. There was influence from, from the city. There was influence from other parts of the country in ways that maybe like a more rural village wouldn't have.\n\nBut it also was sad because it was an extremely impoverished village. So my students and other people in town, they couldn't afford to go take a minibus to the market. Um, and it especially came up because as a high school teacher, you're working with people who might want to work or, or hopefully would want to work and kind of embrace those opportunities, but they can't afford the transportation to get to the interview. So, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they all in agriculture or what? What did people do in this town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Primarily agriculture, um. I think I'm going to get this statistic wrong. But the vast, vast majority of Malawi's economy as a whole is subsistence farming, and that was definitely evident in the village. Um, there were, there were a lot of churches there. So, um, and a couple of, there was the one school. But, um, I think people like primarily were agriculture, subsistence farmers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how big was this town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, it was a couple of thousand people, I believe. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did it have, paved streets? Did it have?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.505648071840543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Primarily agriculture, um. I think I'm going to get this statistic wrong. But the vast, vast majority of Malawi's economy as a whole is subsistence farming, and that was definitely evident in the village. Um, there were, there were a lot of churches there. So, um, and a couple of, there was the one school. But, um, I think people like primarily were agriculture, subsistence farmers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how big was this town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, it was a couple of thousand people, I believe. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did it have, paved streets? Did it have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, just, it just had the main road which was paved. Everything else was dirt. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And any indoor plumbing anywhere?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.339608968711715, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, it was a couple of thousand people, I believe. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did it have, paved streets? Did it have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, just, it just had the main road which was paved. Everything else was dirt. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And any indoor plumbing anywhere?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any electricity, no?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.377343298568572, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, just, it just had the main road which was paved. Everything else was dirt. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And any indoor plumbing anywhere?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any electricity, no?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was some electricity. Um, our little, like, market area, a lot of them had lights on the outside, but. And I had electricity in my house. There were blackouts more often than not. So it wasn't working. Um, but there were some people that had electricity. I don't know of anyone who had, um, who had like a toilet or indoor plumbing or anything. Um, we used what was called a chimbudzi, but, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have to ask, what is that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.661490287654129, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right? Um, yeah, I guess had just. And it's, it's interesting for even Americans to think about a young person kind of going off and, um, and spending two years in a different place like that. But in Mphomwa, the village specifically, I think it was definitely a shock to a lot of people. The volunteer I replaced was a little bit older. He, um, he had more of a peer to peer relationship with the other teachers, was, was friendly with them in a way that I never would have been able to. Um, so I did feel a bit of an oddball in the school environment. I, um, I tried to, you know, stick up for myself and try to, um, engage in conversation and, like, use, try and help them and use them as a resource to help me as a teacher. But it did affect me, um. I felt pretty lonely in that environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to make any friends at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say, um, not peers my own age. I enjoyed speaking with the students. I enjoyed, um, because we were all in the village together. Like I would see students all, all over, um, they knew where I lived. So I think I was around other people, and, um, my neighbors had kids that were running, little kids that were running around all the time. I was definitely surrounded by other people, but I wouldn't say I had the, the types of friendships that you would find back home or, um, potentially in other, um, other villages. That's not to say that wouldn't have happened eventually, I think just initially, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long were you actually in the village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there from August to November. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So not very long at all."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.734989208504587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say, um, not peers my own age. I enjoyed speaking with the students. I enjoyed, um, because we were all in the village together. Like I would see students all, all over, um, they knew where I lived. So I think I was around other people, and, um, my neighbors had kids that were running, little kids that were running around all the time. I was definitely surrounded by other people, but I wouldn't say I had the, the types of friendships that you would find back home or, um, potentially in other, um, other villages. That's not to say that wouldn't have happened eventually, I think just initially, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how long were you actually in the village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there from August to November. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So not very long at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not very long. It was just coming up on the end of my, let's see, the end of my three-ish months in site. Um, and so, again, I was new. People didn't know me, weren't used to a female volunteer there. So I think that is hopefully something that would have changed. But for those first few months, it was, it was hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you talk to the mothers of your students?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.927765787227319, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there from August to November. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So not very long at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not very long. It was just coming up on the end of my, let's see, the end of my three-ish months in site. Um, and so, again, I was new. People didn't know me, weren't used to a female volunteer there. So I think that is hopefully something that would have changed. But for those first few months, it was, it was hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you talk to the mothers of your students?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, um. I think even other women, um, had a lot of the same reactions that my male counterparts had in the school in that, um, when, when a lot of them were 23, they had had kids and were running a household. And, um, there was definitely that divide. Um, I think people always welcomed me and were always eager to, to talk and to, um, be friendly. But, um, and so I did, I did try to get out and meet people as much as I could. I think, um, there just were a lot of cultural differences that I couldn't get past with the limited knowledge of the language that I had initially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I forgot to ask, what grade did you teach?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.919739763585909, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not very long. It was just coming up on the end of my, let's see, the end of my three-ish months in site. Um, and so, again, I was new. People didn't know me, weren't used to a female volunteer there. So I think that is hopefully something that would have changed. But for those first few months, it was, it was hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you talk to the mothers of your students?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, um. I think even other women, um, had a lot of the same reactions that my male counterparts had in the school in that, um, when, when a lot of them were 23, they had had kids and were running a household. And, um, there was definitely that divide. Um, I think people always welcomed me and were always eager to, to talk and to, um, be friendly. But, um, and so I did, I did try to get out and meet people as much as I could. I think, um, there just were a lot of cultural differences that I couldn't get past with the limited knowledge of the language that I had initially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I forgot to ask, what grade did you teach?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I teach in the secondary school. So, um, the equivalent of ninth, 10th, and 11th grade. Forms one, two, and three."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how far advanced were your students in English?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.02193307065101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, um. I think even other women, um, had a lot of the same reactions that my male counterparts had in the school in that, um, when, when a lot of them were 23, they had had kids and were running a household. And, um, there was definitely that divide. Um, I think people always welcomed me and were always eager to, to talk and to, um, be friendly. But, um, and so I did, I did try to get out and meet people as much as I could. I think, um, there just were a lot of cultural differences that I couldn't get past with the limited knowledge of the language that I had initially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I forgot to ask, what grade did you teach?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I teach in the secondary school. So, um, the equivalent of ninth, 10th, and 11th grade. Forms one, two, and three."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how far advanced were your students in English?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "English was a difficult subject. Um, the main issue was that there just weren't enough books. There weren't resources. So our classes, I had at least 100 in each class and we would have four books. Um, and I mean that, that poses challenges in and of itself. But, um, the language. People couldn't understand my accent, which I understand. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that? Had they been taught by Brits? No, they had a Peace Corps, American Peace Corps as well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.372756877346925, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "English was a difficult subject. Um, the main issue was that there just weren't enough books. There weren't resources. So our classes, I had at least 100 in each class and we would have four books. Um, and I mean that, that poses challenges in and of itself. But, um, the language. People couldn't understand my accent, which I understand. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that? Had they been taught by Brits? No, they had a Peace Corps, American Peace Corps as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They, they had. I think he had taught a different subject. So maybe learning the, the English text and grammar was different. But, um, just like the American accent in general, we tend to speak faster because we're comfortable with English. Um, it. And they have a test at the end of form four or like at the end of high school that tests very specifically based on the curriculum, um, text-based questions, questions that they are supposed to learn through school. So a lot of, a lot of the teaching methods that they were used to was kind of rote memorization. Um, so again, maybe they weren't used to my style of teaching also.\n\nUm, I think. I tried my best and I, I think that's all we can really do. But, um, I did really enjoy speaking with students outside of class, as I mentioned. I think that was my way of really connecting with students, because in that, on that one on one or small group setting, you can, you can see when they don't understand, you can explain it in a different way. But in such a large classroom, you're not reaching everyone. You're probably not reaching most students. Um, and it was, it was a limited time that you were in a classroom. So it's, it's hard to kind of meet all of those needs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've mentioned several times that you left, um, in January. You said you were in the village till November."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, what happened to you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 10.414174308163249, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They, they had. I think he had taught a different subject. So maybe learning the, the English text and grammar was different. But, um, just like the American accent in general, we tend to speak faster because we're comfortable with English. Um, it. And they have a test at the end of form four or like at the end of high school that tests very specifically based on the curriculum, um, text-based questions, questions that they are supposed to learn through school. So a lot of, a lot of the teaching methods that they were used to was kind of rote memorization. Um, so again, maybe they weren't used to my style of teaching also.\n\nUm, I think. I tried my best and I, I think that's all we can really do. But, um, I did really enjoy speaking with students outside of class, as I mentioned. I think that was my way of really connecting with students, because in that, on that one on one or small group setting, you can, you can see when they don't understand, you can explain it in a different way. But in such a large classroom, you're not reaching everyone. You're probably not reaching most students. Um, and it was, it was a limited time that you were in a classroom. So it's, it's hard to kind of meet all of those needs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've mentioned several times that you left, um, in January. You said you were in the village till November."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, what happened to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I. So between the end of November, I left like right around Thanksgiving, and when I officially closed of service in January, I had been in Washington, D.C."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.951285048287435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For three months?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That I don't know exactly, for about three months. Um, and people were, quote, deselected, kicked out of the program. Did Peace Corps know about your drinking and about your, as you say, your demons?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, I think they. We did like a brief alcohol training in country during those three months of training. It came to light at that time, and I was always honest about it, that my history with drinking had looked like that. Um, and by that I mean unhealthy. Um, but, you know, I was coming from a college setting immediately to being in service. So in my mind, it was easy to say it was the context that led to my drinking this way. And so while we were in training, it was very, I think there had been issues with previous groups with drinking and drinking in or around the village. It was kind of ingrained in us from the beginning. You can't drink while you're staying with a family. It's not appropriate, um, especially for women, female volunteers. It wasn't culturally appropriate.\n\nSo those three months there weren't any issues. You know, I never I never wanted to jeopardize my stay there. So, um, it was once I got to site and was on my own that they started creeping up again. All of those, those issues that I had tried to, you know, suppress and that I thought would be different in a different place. Um, you know, I truly thought once I was doing work that I loved and once I was in a new environment, I, I would outgrow that phase. And it wasn't true, or it wasn't the reality. So, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's interesting, you identified it. Peace Corps staff didn't identify."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That it was affecting your, you know, your performance."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.112697590478314, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That it was affecting your, you know, your performance."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I, I was scared, honestly, because I knew. I, I had spent a lot of years, like, wondering if it was a problem and then I was scared to kind of be in that environment where I, I was living alone for the first time. I was the only American within, you know, 45 minutes in any direction. So I was the only person holding myself accountable. And that scared me. I didn't trust myself to be doing that when, um, you know, I was making poor decisions also and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's great that you were self aware and were able to, to do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm, thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lots of people wouldn't, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.791886211642571, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I, I was scared, honestly, because I knew. I, I had spent a lot of years, like, wondering if it was a problem and then I was scared to kind of be in that environment where I, I was living alone for the first time. I was the only American within, you know, 45 minutes in any direction. So I was the only person holding myself accountable. And that scared me. I didn't trust myself to be doing that when, um, you know, I was making poor decisions also and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's great that you were self aware and were able to, to do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm, thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lots of people wouldn't, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. I, um, and again, I was, when I reached out to the medical staff, they did give me the option of you can stay in country. We'll talk about ways that you can mitigate risks and try not to drink and that kind of stuff. Or you can, what'd they say, it was nip it in the bud and go back and seek treatment. Um, I, I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. I needed the support. I didn't even know what that support would look like or how. You know, I certainly didn't foresee myself staying sober, um, after I came back, but I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it in country. Fortunately, I have been sober since, um, my last drink was actually on my flight home on my way to treatment. So. So far."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've been in treatment all this time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.4354291240473005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm, thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lots of people wouldn't, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. I, um, and again, I was, when I reached out to the medical staff, they did give me the option of you can stay in country. We'll talk about ways that you can mitigate risks and try not to drink and that kind of stuff. Or you can, what'd they say, it was nip it in the bud and go back and seek treatment. Um, I, I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. I needed the support. I didn't even know what that support would look like or how. You know, I certainly didn't foresee myself staying sober, um, after I came back, but I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it in country. Fortunately, I have been sober since, um, my last drink was actually on my flight home on my way to treatment. So. So far."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've been in treatment all this time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was just in treatment for those six months, but I've stayed sober since. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did your family deal with all of this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.150476804497, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. I, um, and again, I was, when I reached out to the medical staff, they did give me the option of you can stay in country. We'll talk about ways that you can mitigate risks and try not to drink and that kind of stuff. Or you can, what'd they say, it was nip it in the bud and go back and seek treatment. Um, I, I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. I needed the support. I didn't even know what that support would look like or how. You know, I certainly didn't foresee myself staying sober, um, after I came back, but I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it in country. Fortunately, I have been sober since, um, my last drink was actually on my flight home on my way to treatment. So. So far."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you've been in treatment all this time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was just in treatment for those six months, but I've stayed sober since. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did your family deal with all of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. It was, again, it was interesting circumstances, because on the one hand, I think they were happy to have me back. I think, um, they felt safer with me back, even though I, I wanted to be Malawi and I felt safe in Malawi. I think, um, you know, when, when they couldn't see what my life was like there, the worries came out. So they."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they know that you had a drinking problem before you left?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.722752004996667, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was just in treatment for those six months, but I've stayed sober since. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did your family deal with all of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. It was, again, it was interesting circumstances, because on the one hand, I think they were happy to have me back. I think, um, they felt safer with me back, even though I, I wanted to be Malawi and I felt safe in Malawi. I think, um, you know, when, when they couldn't see what my life was like there, the worries came out. So they."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they know that you had a drinking problem before you left?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I. Or I guess as I've grown more comfortable with it, they have also come to see it. Um, it's such an interesting disease because I was able to perform well in school. I was accepted to the Peace Corps. I was, I had these opportunities. Um, so I wouldn't say I look like the alcoholic that a lot of people expect. And I do think that other Peace Corps volunteers have similar, similar experiences. There was actually another volunteer from another African country who was in treatment with me at the same time. We both were medically evacuated during the same few weeks. It is unfortunately something that does affect volunteers, um, whether it be substance use or other mental health.\n\nBut um, so my family has come to accept it and they do support me and are, um, crucial in my recovery. But initially it took a lot of, I guess, as you say, like self-awareness. I knew that even if I didn't know what was going to come, I knew that what had led me to that point wasn't okay, and I wasn't willing to kind of take it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do something about it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.358613338885185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. It was, again, it was interesting circumstances, because on the one hand, I think they were happy to have me back. I think, um, they felt safer with me back, even though I, I wanted to be Malawi and I felt safe in Malawi. I think, um, you know, when, when they couldn't see what my life was like there, the worries came out. So they."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they know that you had a drinking problem before you left?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I. Or I guess as I've grown more comfortable with it, they have also come to see it. Um, it's such an interesting disease because I was able to perform well in school. I was accepted to the Peace Corps. I was, I had these opportunities. Um, so I wouldn't say I look like the alcoholic that a lot of people expect. And I do think that other Peace Corps volunteers have similar, similar experiences. There was actually another volunteer from another African country who was in treatment with me at the same time. We both were medically evacuated during the same few weeks. It is unfortunately something that does affect volunteers, um, whether it be substance use or other mental health.\n\nBut um, so my family has come to accept it and they do support me and are, um, crucial in my recovery. But initially it took a lot of, I guess, as you say, like self-awareness. I knew that even if I didn't know what was going to come, I knew that what had led me to that point wasn't okay, and I wasn't willing to kind of take it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do something about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, take it day by day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you came back. You stayed in a hotel. You were in treatment, in January that ended."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.06512593209465, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I. Or I guess as I've grown more comfortable with it, they have also come to see it. Um, it's such an interesting disease because I was able to perform well in school. I was accepted to the Peace Corps. I was, I had these opportunities. Um, so I wouldn't say I look like the alcoholic that a lot of people expect. And I do think that other Peace Corps volunteers have similar, similar experiences. There was actually another volunteer from another African country who was in treatment with me at the same time. We both were medically evacuated during the same few weeks. It is unfortunately something that does affect volunteers, um, whether it be substance use or other mental health.\n\nBut um, so my family has come to accept it and they do support me and are, um, crucial in my recovery. But initially it took a lot of, I guess, as you say, like self-awareness. I knew that even if I didn't know what was going to come, I knew that what had led me to that point wasn't okay, and I wasn't willing to kind of take it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do something about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, take it day by day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you came back. You stayed in a hotel. You were in treatment, in January that ended."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.850139924549611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, take it day by day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you came back. You stayed in a hotel. You were in treatment, in January that ended."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then they booked a flight for me to go back to Boston. And at that point, um, I was no longer, I was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. I had ten sessions of readjustment counseling, I think, um, I. That was my last connection to Peace Corps. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does everybody get that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.611266582832901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then they booked a flight for me to go back to Boston. And at that point, um, I was no longer, I was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. I had ten sessions of readjustment counseling, I think, um, I. That was my last connection to Peace Corps. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does everybody get that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody gets three. Any volunteer can get three. People who are separated for mental health concerns, or I think who expressed mental health concerns at the end of service can, are eligible for up to ten. Um, and so I was in touch in terms of like the paperwork, submitting that kind of stuff. And then um, there hasn't, yeah, that that was the end of my service.\n\nI have, I've stayed in touch with my other, the other volunteers and actually I touched base with the director of the Peace Corps in Malawi. She's, she, um. I guess to backtrack that week between when we made the plans for me to go back to treatment and when I was actually on the plane, I stayed with the director at her house in Malawi and, um, like her and her daughter. It was over Thanksgiving and I didn't have, um, people to spend it with. And we celebrated Thanksgiving together. And so I've been, um, able to touch base with her a bit, which is nice as well. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, did, you sound positive about the role of Peace Corps staff played in this whole, um, episode. Do you have any comments on that? Because there, you know, there have been comments about Peace Corps medical staff not necessarily always being helpful."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.43046721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I get a lot of, a lot of surprised react people. Um. Just fascinated by the concept of, of signing on for two years of service in a different country where you don't know the language. Everything that drew me to it, you know? Um, I enjoy those conversations because no matter how other people feel about it, I really did, um, I believe in Peace Corps' approach. And I believe that volunteers can be successful. Um, I. I can't say how, I'm still so torn about how I feel about my service. Um, you know, who knows?\n\nAs I said, I wasn't able to teach for the full year. But, you know, I would like to think that maybe one of those relationships might have affected a student or a teacher or a neighbor. You know, I don't know, but I do believe that every volunteer that goes has something to offer, and. I forget what the question was. I just went on a ramble."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh. I forgot as well. But, but it had an effect on you, clearly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did. I, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it's having a ripple effect on how you talk about the world and Peace Corps to other people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. I actually, I did apply to go back since. Since I've been back, um, I reapplied to Peace Corps. I went through the selection process. I was actually accepted. And at that time I was told I wouldn't have been medically cleared, which I guess most, most of me knew. Um. They look for three years of sobriety for applicants. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it would have been a hard thing for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.47829690000000014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did. I, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it's having a ripple effect on how you talk about the world and Peace Corps to other people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. I actually, I did apply to go back since. Since I've been back, um, I reapplied to Peace Corps. I went through the selection process. I was actually accepted. And at that time I was told I wouldn't have been medically cleared, which I guess most, most of me knew. Um. They look for three years of sobriety for applicants. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it would have been a hard thing for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it would have been, but I would have at least had the tools to, to, um. I didn't have the tools before because I had never had to have the tools. Whereas, you know, I would have come in with a year, a year and a half of sobriety, not as much as they look for, obviously, but I really did believe that I would have had the tools form, the tools built, this, you know, plan that could have helped me when I was in. I would have been in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's interesting. It's three years because you were, because you were evacuated or you hadn't, you know, you encountered this while you were in Peace Corps. But there really was no discussion of that before you went in, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5314410000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. I actually, I did apply to go back since. Since I've been back, um, I reapplied to Peace Corps. I went through the selection process. I was actually accepted. And at that time I was told I wouldn't have been medically cleared, which I guess most, most of me knew. Um. They look for three years of sobriety for applicants. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it would have been a hard thing for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it would have been, but I would have at least had the tools to, to, um. I didn't have the tools before because I had never had to have the tools. Whereas, you know, I would have come in with a year, a year and a half of sobriety, not as much as they look for, obviously, but I really did believe that I would have had the tools form, the tools built, this, you know, plan that could have helped me when I was in. I would have been in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's interesting. It's three years because you were, because you were evacuated or you hadn't, you know, you encountered this while you were in Peace Corps. But there really was no discussion of that before you went in, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, so as part of the medical clearance process for any applicant, I believe it's, they look for three years. They ask if there's a history of, yeah, substance abuse or if there's a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5904900000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it would have been, but I would have at least had the tools to, to, um. I didn't have the tools before because I had never had to have the tools. Whereas, you know, I would have come in with a year, a year and a half of sobriety, not as much as they look for, obviously, but I really did believe that I would have had the tools form, the tools built, this, you know, plan that could have helped me when I was in. I would have been in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's interesting. It's three years because you were, because you were evacuated or you hadn't, you know, you encountered this while you were in Peace Corps. But there really was no discussion of that before you went in, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, so as part of the medical clearance process for any applicant, I believe it's, they look for three years. They ask if there's a history of, yeah, substance abuse or if there's a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, they do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Substance use diagnosis, disorder diagnosis. Um, and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just hadn't had a diagnosis."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7290000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Substance use diagnosis, disorder diagnosis. Um, and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You just hadn't had a diagnosis."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I didn't know I had a, or I didn't, um. Yeah. I had never been diagnosed before, and. Yes, I would have gone to another country in Africa where, um. Again, it was for the best. I think that was another instance where what I wanted so desperately didn't match up with the reality. Um, and I do think, um, I do think the guidelines for medical clearance are in place for a reason because it is such, um, such a different environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No one knows until they're there. But it, um. Yeah, I think that just goes to show that I really did want to, to give back in a way that I. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you end up being sober for the rest of your life, that has a major impact."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I didn't know I had a, or I didn't, um. Yeah. I had never been diagnosed before, and. Yes, I would have gone to another country in Africa where, um. Again, it was for the best. I think that was another instance where what I wanted so desperately didn't match up with the reality. Um, and I do think, um, I do think the guidelines for medical clearance are in place for a reason because it is such, um, such a different environment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No one knows until they're there. But it, um. Yeah, I think that just goes to show that I really did want to, to give back in a way that I. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you end up being sober for the rest of your life, that has a major impact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There's always time down the road to to go back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To do it again. Great. So do you have any other thoughts about your whole experience or the impact of, of Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No one knows until they're there. But it, um. Yeah, I think that just goes to show that I really did want to, to give back in a way that I. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you end up being sober for the rest of your life, that has a major impact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There's always time down the road to to go back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To do it again. Great. So do you have any other thoughts about your whole experience or the impact of, of Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh man, that's a loaded question. Um, I really am so excited about this project because I do feel like it's. It's an opportunity that I wish more people had, but that I know, um, it does take a really special person to, to make a successful service. Um. And I'm so grateful for the opportunities that Peace Corps gave me to not only to recognize what I needed to do for like, my, my own health. You know, I don't know what would have happened if I had never been in Malawi and experienced, um, my alcoholism there. But, um, it shaped my, my perspective in a way that I know now like how I want to be able to give back and how I want to continue doing that.\n\nUm, no matter where I am, I think that remembering like, what, what life was like and what those conversations were like and the people who influenced my stay while I was there and my life since, remembering that stuff I do here could affect, could affect them. Stuff that's happening in policy affects them, um, even if we don't see it every day. And I think, um. Again, it's, it's something I wish a lot more people had awareness of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you become a human rights, international human rights lawyer, you'll be knee deep in all of that, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There's always time down the road to to go back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To do it again. Great. So do you have any other thoughts about your whole experience or the impact of, of Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh man, that's a loaded question. Um, I really am so excited about this project because I do feel like it's. It's an opportunity that I wish more people had, but that I know, um, it does take a really special person to, to make a successful service. Um. And I'm so grateful for the opportunities that Peace Corps gave me to not only to recognize what I needed to do for like, my, my own health. You know, I don't know what would have happened if I had never been in Malawi and experienced, um, my alcoholism there. But, um, it shaped my, my perspective in a way that I know now like how I want to be able to give back and how I want to continue doing that.\n\nUm, no matter where I am, I think that remembering like, what, what life was like and what those conversations were like and the people who influenced my stay while I was there and my life since, remembering that stuff I do here could affect, could affect them. Stuff that's happening in policy affects them, um, even if we don't see it every day. And I think, um. Again, it's, it's something I wish a lot more people had awareness of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you become a human rights, international human rights lawyer, you'll be knee deep in all of that, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We'll see. Knock on wood. But yes, hopefully."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where are you going to go to law school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh man, that's a loaded question. Um, I really am so excited about this project because I do feel like it's. It's an opportunity that I wish more people had, but that I know, um, it does take a really special person to, to make a successful service. Um. And I'm so grateful for the opportunities that Peace Corps gave me to not only to recognize what I needed to do for like, my, my own health. You know, I don't know what would have happened if I had never been in Malawi and experienced, um, my alcoholism there. But, um, it shaped my, my perspective in a way that I know now like how I want to be able to give back and how I want to continue doing that.\n\nUm, no matter where I am, I think that remembering like, what, what life was like and what those conversations were like and the people who influenced my stay while I was there and my life since, remembering that stuff I do here could affect, could affect them. Stuff that's happening in policy affects them, um, even if we don't see it every day. And I think, um. Again, it's, it's something I wish a lot more people had awareness of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And if you become a human rights, international human rights lawyer, you'll be knee deep in all of that, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We'll see. Knock on wood. But yes, hopefully."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where are you going to go to law school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll be at Boston University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great. So you'll be home as well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We'll see. Knock on wood. But yes, hopefully."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where are you going to go to law school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll be at Boston University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great. So you'll be home as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds, sounds good. My daughter's a lawyer. My husband's a lawyer. One of her best friends is an international human rights lawyer."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll be at Boston University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great. So you'll be home as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds, sounds good. My daughter's a lawyer. My husband's a lawyer. One of her best friends is an international human rights lawyer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, really?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So lots of lawyers."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00042:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, really?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So lots of lawyers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Unfortunately, there's a huge need for those, those types of lawyers too, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unfortunately."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. It was a great interview. Thank you so much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 35.1930572013964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I always loved math and science going through school. I just took as many math and science classes as I could through junior high and high school. We got a brochure mailed to the house from Purdue University [Lafayette, Indiana] about a week-long seminar for high school students to come in and learn about engineering. My parents managed to scrape up the funds to send me off to Purdue for a week, and I went. It was perfect. I could make money, which was kind of an important thing, to be able to support myself, and it melded the math and science together perfectly. That’s when I decided to become an engineer, as a junior in high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you know any other women engineers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nope. Well, there were other girls there, yes, but I didn’t really know any other women engineers. That, to me, wasn’t a consideration or anything. It was just like, well that’s what I want to do, so I was going to go off and do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve talked to other women, and sometimes in the engineering field, they’ve had people—high school counselors, college counselors—that have tried to almost discourage them. Did you ever run into any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, although I think my mom was a little puzzled by what I wanted to go off and do. But no, I never got any discouragement. I only got positive reinforcement from the teachers I had in science in particular in high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you got your degree, then did you come to NASA right after that? If so, how did that happen? How did you hear about NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 34.658952445996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nope. Well, there were other girls there, yes, but I didn’t really know any other women engineers. That, to me, wasn’t a consideration or anything. It was just like, well that’s what I want to do, so I was going to go off and do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve talked to other women, and sometimes in the engineering field, they’ve had people—high school counselors, college counselors—that have tried to almost discourage them. Did you ever run into any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, although I think my mom was a little puzzled by what I wanted to go off and do. But no, I never got any discouragement. I only got positive reinforcement from the teachers I had in science in particular in high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you got your degree, then did you come to NASA right after that? If so, how did that happen? How did you hear about NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember watching the moon landing when I was 12—Apollo 11. I said, “Someday, I’d like to work for NASA.” I never imagined that that would happen, but I ended up marrying a man whose father worked here for NASA. I didn’t come immediately, because I graduated in August of ’79, and started in January of ’80, but he sent us applications, because JSC was going through a transition back then, and it turns out they were looking for minority engineers. Women were minority engineers at the time, so I filled out the application and I got hired. That was like a dream come true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to come down to interview, or were you just hired?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 36.287724939995556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, although I think my mom was a little puzzled by what I wanted to go off and do. But no, I never got any discouragement. I only got positive reinforcement from the teachers I had in science in particular in high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you got your degree, then did you come to NASA right after that? If so, how did that happen? How did you hear about NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember watching the moon landing when I was 12—Apollo 11. I said, “Someday, I’d like to work for NASA.” I never imagined that that would happen, but I ended up marrying a man whose father worked here for NASA. I didn’t come immediately, because I graduated in August of ’79, and started in January of ’80, but he sent us applications, because JSC was going through a transition back then, and it turns out they were looking for minority engineers. Women were minority engineers at the time, so I filled out the application and I got hired. That was like a dream come true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to come down to interview, or were you just hired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I actually interviewed over the phone, because we were living in New Orleans [Louisiana] at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they hired you, what did they tell you you were going to be doing, or what area did you start out in?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.319694377772834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember watching the moon landing when I was 12—Apollo 11. I said, “Someday, I’d like to work for NASA.” I never imagined that that would happen, but I ended up marrying a man whose father worked here for NASA. I didn’t come immediately, because I graduated in August of ’79, and started in January of ’80, but he sent us applications, because JSC was going through a transition back then, and it turns out they were looking for minority engineers. Women were minority engineers at the time, so I filled out the application and I got hired. That was like a dream come true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to come down to interview, or were you just hired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I actually interviewed over the phone, because we were living in New Orleans [Louisiana] at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they hired you, what did they tell you you were going to be doing, or what area did you start out in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was ED. Experiment Systems Division. The first thing they had me do was actually in the Aircraft Instrumentation Research Program, where they had WB-57s—which were the great big airplanes with the droopy wings—and they would fly over different parts of the country taking scientific photographs. My job was to write a computer program, when I first came here. They had the thing running on an old Tektronix graphics computer. They wanted to transition it to a Hewlett-Packard computer. I wrote a program that basically did the same thing on the Hewlett-Packard as they did on the Tektronix, which was to take different features from those photographs and be able to correlate those with map coordinates.\\n\\n Now I’m not a computer programmer, and when I got done with that, I said, “I don’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t sign up to be a programmer.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you learn to do that? As like you said, you’re not a computer programmer. How did you figure out how to do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 33.68854930863648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I actually interviewed over the phone, because we were living in New Orleans [Louisiana] at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they hired you, what did they tell you you were going to be doing, or what area did you start out in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was ED. Experiment Systems Division. The first thing they had me do was actually in the Aircraft Instrumentation Research Program, where they had WB-57s—which were the great big airplanes with the droopy wings—and they would fly over different parts of the country taking scientific photographs. My job was to write a computer program, when I first came here. They had the thing running on an old Tektronix graphics computer. They wanted to transition it to a Hewlett-Packard computer. I wrote a program that basically did the same thing on the Hewlett-Packard as they did on the Tektronix, which was to take different features from those photographs and be able to correlate those with map coordinates.\\n\\n Now I’m not a computer programmer, and when I got done with that, I said, “I don’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t sign up to be a programmer.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you learn to do that? As like you said, you’re not a computer programmer. How did you figure out how to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just sat down with the manuals, and started playing around, and learning how to write machine code. I just did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other women in the area when you came in to work in that division? Were there other women in that division?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.987277009596085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was ED. Experiment Systems Division. The first thing they had me do was actually in the Aircraft Instrumentation Research Program, where they had WB-57s—which were the great big airplanes with the droopy wings—and they would fly over different parts of the country taking scientific photographs. My job was to write a computer program, when I first came here. They had the thing running on an old Tektronix graphics computer. They wanted to transition it to a Hewlett-Packard computer. I wrote a program that basically did the same thing on the Hewlett-Packard as they did on the Tektronix, which was to take different features from those photographs and be able to correlate those with map coordinates.\\n\\n Now I’m not a computer programmer, and when I got done with that, I said, “I don’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t sign up to be a programmer.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you learn to do that? As like you said, you’re not a computer programmer. How did you figure out how to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just sat down with the manuals, and started playing around, and learning how to write machine code. I just did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other women in the area when you came in to work in that division? Were there other women in that division?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There weren’t too many that I recall. I think it was pretty much all guys. After a year and a half of being in that division, I went to the Propulsion Power Division [EP], and at that point, that division had hired a lot more women, so there were quite a few women engineers in EP at the time. There had been a push in the 1980 timeframe to hire more women engineers, so there was an influx. Not to say that we ever became a majority."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you weren’t the only one."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 36.65253001066232, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just sat down with the manuals, and started playing around, and learning how to write machine code. I just did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other women in the area when you came in to work in that division? Were there other women in that division?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There weren’t too many that I recall. I think it was pretty much all guys. After a year and a half of being in that division, I went to the Propulsion Power Division [EP], and at that point, that division had hired a lot more women, so there were quite a few women engineers in EP at the time. There had been a push in the 1980 timeframe to hire more women engineers, so there was an influx. Not to say that we ever became a majority."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you weren’t the only one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk about that next assignment with the Propulsion and Power Division. That was right when the [Space] Shuttle was beginning to fly at that point, in 1981."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 36.28058890073591, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There weren’t too many that I recall. I think it was pretty much all guys. After a year and a half of being in that division, I went to the Propulsion Power Division [EP], and at that point, that division had hired a lot more women, so there were quite a few women engineers in EP at the time. There had been a push in the 1980 timeframe to hire more women engineers, so there was an influx. Not to say that we ever became a majority."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you weren’t the only one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk about that next assignment with the Propulsion and Power Division. That was right when the [Space] Shuttle was beginning to fly at that point, in 1981."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. That was pretty exciting. I ended up in the Power Branch. I was assigned to work on the fuel cells and the cryogenic storage system. The PRSD, Power Reactant Storage and Distribution system, I think is what it stands for. I was learning that system, and I actually worked the night shift on the second flight. That was one of the flights where the fuel cell had failed, so that mission was cut short by several days. I worked on that for a number of years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By working on the night shift, were you in the support room?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 39.200654334151004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk about that next assignment with the Propulsion and Power Division. That was right when the [Space] Shuttle was beginning to fly at that point, in 1981."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. That was pretty exciting. I ended up in the Power Branch. I was assigned to work on the fuel cells and the cryogenic storage system. The PRSD, Power Reactant Storage and Distribution system, I think is what it stands for. I was learning that system, and I actually worked the night shift on the second flight. That was one of the flights where the fuel cell had failed, so that mission was cut short by several days. I worked on that for a number of years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By working on the night shift, were you in the support room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was graveyard. Yes, I was in the Mission Evaluation [Control] Room, 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. shift."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working when they realized they had the problem?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 35.77850481572334, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. That was pretty exciting. I ended up in the Power Branch. I was assigned to work on the fuel cells and the cryogenic storage system. The PRSD, Power Reactant Storage and Distribution system, I think is what it stands for. I was learning that system, and I actually worked the night shift on the second flight. That was one of the flights where the fuel cell had failed, so that mission was cut short by several days. I worked on that for a number of years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By working on the night shift, were you in the support room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was graveyard. Yes, I was in the Mission Evaluation [Control] Room, 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. shift."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working when they realized they had the problem?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, actually I was at home asleep, and then trying to get back into the mode of working days again, because you almost skip a day because of that. I had to catch up on my sleep, and get back into work, and try to put in 40 hours. I worked the Shuttle flights from basically then, that second Shuttle mission, up through 1989. I worked the first four flights after we got back from [the Space Shuttle] Challenger [accident, STS-51L]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Also during that time, you went back to school to get your master’s degree."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 38.642783128581485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was graveyard. Yes, I was in the Mission Evaluation [Control] Room, 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. shift."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working when they realized they had the problem?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, actually I was at home asleep, and then trying to get back into the mode of working days again, because you almost skip a day because of that. I had to catch up on my sleep, and get back into work, and try to put in 40 hours. I worked the Shuttle flights from basically then, that second Shuttle mission, up through 1989. I worked the first four flights after we got back from [the Space Shuttle] Challenger [accident, STS-51L]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Also during that time, you went back to school to get your master’s degree."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I started the master’s degree in 1980, and finished it in 1983."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they give you time off to go class, or was this all after hours?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 41.82531458731276, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, actually I was at home asleep, and then trying to get back into the mode of working days again, because you almost skip a day because of that. I had to catch up on my sleep, and get back into work, and try to put in 40 hours. I worked the Shuttle flights from basically then, that second Shuttle mission, up through 1989. I worked the first four flights after we got back from [the Space Shuttle] Challenger [accident, STS-51L]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Also during that time, you went back to school to get your master’s degree."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I started the master’s degree in 1980, and finished it in 1983."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they give you time off to go class, or was this all after hours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I did it all at night. All night classes, and a couple of Saturdays. There was one class I took on Saturdays, and most of the classes were covered by the government underneath the continuing education program, or whatever they called it. That was just something I wanted to do. I wanted to get a master’s degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As far as engineers go, is that something that most engineers have, or is it just something you personally wanted to do?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 46.47257176368085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I started the master’s degree in 1980, and finished it in 1983."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they give you time off to go class, or was this all after hours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I did it all at night. All night classes, and a couple of Saturdays. There was one class I took on Saturdays, and most of the classes were covered by the government underneath the continuing education program, or whatever they called it. That was just something I wanted to do. I wanted to get a master’s degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As far as engineers go, is that something that most engineers have, or is it just something you personally wanted to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it’s something I wanted to do. There’s quite a number that have master’s degrees, but most of them just stop at the bachelor’s degree. I’ve even known some engineers that were lawyers, which is really weird."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe it’s that analytical brain. It works in law as well as engineering."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 51.63619084853427, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I did it all at night. All night classes, and a couple of Saturdays. There was one class I took on Saturdays, and most of the classes were covered by the government underneath the continuing education program, or whatever they called it. That was just something I wanted to do. I wanted to get a master’s degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As far as engineers go, is that something that most engineers have, or is it just something you personally wanted to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it’s something I wanted to do. There’s quite a number that have master’s degrees, but most of them just stop at the bachelor’s degree. I’ve even known some engineers that were lawyers, which is really weird."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe it’s that analytical brain. It works in law as well as engineering."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there’s a lot to do with that, I think. Especially when you start reading contracts. There’s a lot of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the Challenger, so let’s talk about the Challenger accident and what your memories are around that time period. Then you, I believe after that, you went to the Program Engineering Office, but you were still there. You said you worked four missions after Challenger, still in that Propulsion and Power Division. Let’s talk about that time period a little bit and what you remember about the accident, and what you were doing during the time that we weren’t flying."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 50.75474904516731, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea. Dan just said, “No, I think we’ll just have them all come out here.” In all the years I worked at NASA, I never went out to Downey, which is weird for somebody who worked on the Shuttle and Station for so long, that I never went out to Downey. I never had to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During that time period, though, was that when you were starting your family too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[My first daughter] was born in 1985. The accident happened when she was about seven months old. She was very young."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Being a working, professional woman with a young child and then after Challenger, were your hours extended because of the accident, or were you just working normal hours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I just basically worked normal hours. I’ve always been one to pretty much work eight, nine hours a day, and then go home and do that thing, and then come back and do the next eight, nine hours. I’ve been able to, fairly successfully, keep those two separate. That’s what I’ve always intended to do, and I’ve made sure that I was able to do that. I just worked really hard. I worked eight hours when I was here, working eight hours. I didn’t do the coffee club, water cooler stuff so much, or the socializing. I was hard at work, eight hours a day, so I got done what I needed to do. I planned things out so that I could get done by the deadlines that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you were also starting to work on the Space Station Freedom, some of those projects. Was that the assembly sequence team?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 29, "return_to_go": 56.39416560574145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[My first daughter] was born in 1985. The accident happened when she was about seven months old. She was very young."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Being a working, professional woman with a young child and then after Challenger, were your hours extended because of the accident, or were you just working normal hours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I just basically worked normal hours. I’ve always been one to pretty much work eight, nine hours a day, and then go home and do that thing, and then come back and do the next eight, nine hours. I’ve been able to, fairly successfully, keep those two separate. That’s what I’ve always intended to do, and I’ve made sure that I was able to do that. I just worked really hard. I worked eight hours when I was here, working eight hours. I didn’t do the coffee club, water cooler stuff so much, or the socializing. I was hard at work, eight hours a day, so I got done what I needed to do. I planned things out so that I could get done by the deadlines that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you were also starting to work on the Space Station Freedom, some of those projects. Was that the assembly sequence team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about that and the systems design team during that time period?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 40.51846609623754, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, I wasn’t working on that anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else about that time period that you can remember? Any anecdotes or during that whole working team, with the System Design Team [SDT] and the assembly team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The SDT was a slightly different thing. One of the things I also had responsibility for was doing the integrated drawings for the Space Station Freedom. I had a Lockheed SEAT [Science, Engineering, Analysis, and Test] contract task order doing that. This is kind of funny. The guys who were doing the drawings—I knew the sequence so well, that I knew exactly what items were on which segment, and there were times when they would make a mistake, and I’d say, “Um, guys, that’s not there yet,” or “You put it in the wrong place,” or something.\\n\\n At one point they brought me a drawing and put it on the table, and said, “Well, where’s the mistake?”\\n\\n I looked at it, and I said, “Well there’s one there, and there’s one there, there’s one there.” I just had it down pat, but they were trying to catch me. I said, “No, don’t think so.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were testing you, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they were testing me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Irene, what kind of tools were they using then?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.04084082073793, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, oh yes. We started going out there in September, and by Christmas, we had pretty much wrapped up the bulk of it. That was a lot of travel. That was two weeks there, a few days back here, two weeks there, a few days back here. Very intense, and we were working 70-hour weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was people from all the Centers that were involved in that, so you were working with people from various Centers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We even had the Canoga Park [California, Rocketdyne] guys there, and of course McDonnell Douglas, and the contractor for Huntsville. Yes, I mean everybody was out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they responsive to changing and to doing this, since you said they weren’t working together well before this started."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Yes. Well, the IBM and McDonnell Douglas weren’t, but because this was a NASA initiative, then once we figured out how we were going to do this, we were able to give technical, contractual direction to go and do that to the various contractors. That’s how that generally works. Yes, we had contractors involved because they’re obviously the ones who know the nuts and bolts of things, but once NASA figured out which parts of this we were going to do and how were we doing to do it, then we can give contractual direction and fix it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us some insight how a group of engineers, with the types of expertise that you have, can sit down and start to figure out where you start to figure it out?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.289347387193917, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so there’s different constraints, but when you think about building a deck. Well, okay, so how big is the deck going to be? How much do I have available to spend? When do I want the deck to be built? Do I have the right skills to build the deck? Do I want to hire out to build the deck? Hire a contractor. I hired a contractor to do my backyard. There was no way I was doing that myself.\\n\\n Those are the same kinds of constraints you have in building space stuff. What’s your problem? What kind of money do I have? What are my time constraints? What are the physical parameters that I have to deal with? They’re a little bit different. Obviously you have to deal with the cold or the heat. You have zero gravity. Does that affect anything at all? It’s the same kind of thing, you just have different parameters that constrain you, or to work with. It’s not magic.\\n\\n When I got into the process stuff later on, it was like, “Well, it’s the process, it’s magic.” Guys, brushing your teeth is a process. I mean really, you think about it. “Well how are we going to train people?” You teach your kids how to brush your teeth, don’t you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Break it down into steps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bingo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were in the systems engineering office until ’99?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think 1994 is when they reorganized again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working with Station that whole time, as far as did you work anything with Shuttle-Mir, or any of those different programs?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.21038598577102, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bingo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were in the systems engineering office until ’99?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think 1994 is when they reorganized again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working with Station that whole time, as far as did you work anything with Shuttle-Mir, or any of those different programs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I wasn’t really involved in the Shuttle-Mir activities. I did do some lunar studies with some other branches in there, but I became Deputy Branch Chief during that time, in that division. That’s also when we did the assembly and operations engineering assessment, which was after we did the Space Station Freedom assembly sequence, then it was the next layer down, of filling in the blanks. Now we’ve got these big chunks of things that are going to go up into the Shuttle. How are we going to connect them together? What kind of EVAs [extravehicular activities] is it going to take? What kind of flight attitudes are we going to have? All that stuff.\\n\\n That’s where I really got to work with Bill Gerstenmaier, because he was in the MOD [Mission Operations Directorate] at the time. I was the engineering head of that study, and he was the MOD head. We worked together and put together that assessment, again, that next layer down of the engineering and operations associated with that assembly sequence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you doing that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.233762206412244, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think 1994 is when they reorganized again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working with Station that whole time, as far as did you work anything with Shuttle-Mir, or any of those different programs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I wasn’t really involved in the Shuttle-Mir activities. I did do some lunar studies with some other branches in there, but I became Deputy Branch Chief during that time, in that division. That’s also when we did the assembly and operations engineering assessment, which was after we did the Space Station Freedom assembly sequence, then it was the next layer down, of filling in the blanks. Now we’ve got these big chunks of things that are going to go up into the Shuttle. How are we going to connect them together? What kind of EVAs [extravehicular activities] is it going to take? What kind of flight attitudes are we going to have? All that stuff.\\n\\n That’s where I really got to work with Bill Gerstenmaier, because he was in the MOD [Mission Operations Directorate] at the time. I was the engineering head of that study, and he was the MOD head. We worked together and put together that assessment, again, that next layer down of the engineering and operations associated with that assembly sequence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you doing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was at least six to eight months. It may have been longer. We did publish a document on it, so that was fun. That’s basically when we did the whole thing at the SES with the astronauts and trying to make sure we could smack these things together and make them stick. There were times when they would bounce off, and you’re just like, “Well, I guess we can’t do that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little trial and error."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.481958007124714, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I wasn’t really involved in the Shuttle-Mir activities. I did do some lunar studies with some other branches in there, but I became Deputy Branch Chief during that time, in that division. That’s also when we did the assembly and operations engineering assessment, which was after we did the Space Station Freedom assembly sequence, then it was the next layer down, of filling in the blanks. Now we’ve got these big chunks of things that are going to go up into the Shuttle. How are we going to connect them together? What kind of EVAs [extravehicular activities] is it going to take? What kind of flight attitudes are we going to have? All that stuff.\\n\\n That’s where I really got to work with Bill Gerstenmaier, because he was in the MOD [Mission Operations Directorate] at the time. I was the engineering head of that study, and he was the MOD head. We worked together and put together that assessment, again, that next layer down of the engineering and operations associated with that assembly sequence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you doing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was at least six to eight months. It may have been longer. We did publish a document on it, so that was fun. That’s basically when we did the whole thing at the SES with the astronauts and trying to make sure we could smack these things together and make them stick. There were times when they would bounce off, and you’re just like, “Well, I guess we can’t do that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little trial and error."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well one of the big concerns was if you did grab it and bring it down, would it bounce off and go skittering off into some weird direction? Did we have to have a pyrotechnic release just in case something went wrong? We found that we didn’t have to do any of that. It was actually a quite successful assessment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like you said, you were Deputy Branch Chief of the Systems and Engineering and Integration. You moved into manager for the Station Engineering Office after that, according to your resume."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.979953341249683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was at least six to eight months. It may have been longer. We did publish a document on it, so that was fun. That’s basically when we did the whole thing at the SES with the astronauts and trying to make sure we could smack these things together and make them stick. There were times when they would bounce off, and you’re just like, “Well, I guess we can’t do that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little trial and error."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well one of the big concerns was if you did grab it and bring it down, would it bounce off and go skittering off into some weird direction? Did we have to have a pyrotechnic release just in case something went wrong? We found that we didn’t have to do any of that. It was actually a quite successful assessment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like you said, you were Deputy Branch Chief of the Systems and Engineering and Integration. You moved into manager for the Station Engineering Office after that, according to your resume."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. There was stuff in between there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was happening in between that time, or were there other projects you were working on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 23.311059268055203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well one of the big concerns was if you did grab it and bring it down, would it bounce off and go skittering off into some weird direction? Did we have to have a pyrotechnic release just in case something went wrong? We found that we didn’t have to do any of that. It was actually a quite successful assessment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like you said, you were Deputy Branch Chief of the Systems and Engineering and Integration. You moved into manager for the Station Engineering Office after that, according to your resume."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. There was stuff in between there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was happening in between that time, or were there other projects you were working on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s when we first went into EA4 [Space Shuttle/Space Station Engineering Integration Office]. John Aaron was the manager. I started working, actually, the Joint Integrated schedule. Somebody figured out that we’ve got this Space Station thing, and we’ve got this Shuttle thing, and they depend on each other, so maybe we ought to put together a group so that the schedules mesh up. That’s when I got heavily involved in working schedules.\\n\\n John [C.] Coggeshall, he worked for the Shuttle Program at the time. He’s a wizard at doing schedules. The man was brilliant with working out flight schedules. I did that for about a year and a half, I think. Not that I enjoyed it all the time, because that’s not where my talents lie, but it was a good learning experience, and it really helped me later on in my career to know that schedules really worked, and they weren’t something that was just boring that somebody put up on a screen. They really are important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the process for determining those schedules, or any details on what you were doing during that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 29.23327745960933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, of course the Space Station was going through the development phase. Development is a rocky phase to be in, because you never know what’s going to happen, and when things get delayed. It was a matter of saying, “Okay, well this is our boilerplate. Our draft.” Then the Shuttle would have problems, the Station would have problems. We’d get together once a week and discuss where things were slipping to or getting ahead of things, and we would put together, “Okay, so we think on this date, we’re going to get a Shuttle flight and a Space Station piece ready at the same time.”\\n\\n Then, of course, that would be presented to management and they would have to sign off on it. It was the technical guys sitting down together and going, “Well, you know, the Space Station’s running behind by a couple months because of x, y, z. We’re not going to be able to make that flight, so what can we do in the meantime?” Shuttle was launching other things, too, in the beginning. They weren’t just doing Space Station flights, so it was a matter of juggling things and pushing things around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine that was almost sometimes changing hour to hour, as far as the way things were falling into place."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn’t that rapid. Thank goodness."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seems there were a lot of things happening during that time period. Was that when you were working also on the Shuttle wireless video system?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s when I started the wireless video."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about that? This was sort of revolutionary as far as freeing their hands up to do more."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.939608991936183, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. The solar arrays, one of them didn’t want to deploy correctly. That was the first time we used the wireless video system. It really helped. They were able to figure out, using visuals?actual camera shots?what was going on, and to be able to resolve the problem and get the solar array deployed. Since then, it’s just been wonderful. The ground people, and the astronauts, and everybody just love using it. It was a fun project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and now thinking about it, that was only 15 years ago. It just seems like we’ve always had that ability."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and the really wonderful thing about it, if you will, is that the Space Station folks didn’t want to put the system on the Space Station. One of the knockdown drag-outs I had was with the manifesting people in the ISS Program office. They said, “Well your system’s a Crit 3, that means it’s not needed.”\\n\\n I’m going, “Whoa. Time out. Criticality 3 means that if it fails, you don’t stop doing what you’re doing. It doesn’t mean that it’s not needed.” I said, “I will go all the way to your program manager. I’m going to drag you with me, and you’re going to tell him why he just spent $15 million on a system that you’re not going to fly.” That changed their minds a little bit. Oh, I was pissed. I was so angry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well especially because it was so successful. Why wouldn’t they want to use it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Manifesting is a hard thing to do, and the Space Station component is not a small piece of equipment. The piece that goes outside on the truss is roughly two feet tall with the antenna on top of it and 18 inches in diameter. It weighs 120 pounds. It’s not a small piece of equipment, and trying to find space, when you have limited manifest capabilities is difficult. Now, I could appreciate that, but to say they’re just not going to manifest it at all is just dumb."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That piece, is that to get the signal from the helmet?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.93289887992909, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and the really wonderful thing about it, if you will, is that the Space Station folks didn’t want to put the system on the Space Station. One of the knockdown drag-outs I had was with the manifesting people in the ISS Program office. They said, “Well your system’s a Crit 3, that means it’s not needed.”\\n\\n I’m going, “Whoa. Time out. Criticality 3 means that if it fails, you don’t stop doing what you’re doing. It doesn’t mean that it’s not needed.” I said, “I will go all the way to your program manager. I’m going to drag you with me, and you’re going to tell him why he just spent $15 million on a system that you’re not going to fly.” That changed their minds a little bit. Oh, I was pissed. I was so angry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well especially because it was so successful. Why wouldn’t they want to use it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Manifesting is a hard thing to do, and the Space Station component is not a small piece of equipment. The piece that goes outside on the truss is roughly two feet tall with the antenna on top of it and 18 inches in diameter. It weighs 120 pounds. It’s not a small piece of equipment, and trying to find space, when you have limited manifest capabilities is difficult. Now, I could appreciate that, but to say they’re just not going to manifest it at all is just dumb."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That piece, is that to get the signal from the helmet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that gets the signal from the helmet into the video system on the Space Station. Even though it’s called wireless, there’s still a lot of wires associated with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a lot of equipment there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.036554311032322, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Manifesting is a hard thing to do, and the Space Station component is not a small piece of equipment. The piece that goes outside on the truss is roughly two feet tall with the antenna on top of it and 18 inches in diameter. It weighs 120 pounds. It’s not a small piece of equipment, and trying to find space, when you have limited manifest capabilities is difficult. Now, I could appreciate that, but to say they’re just not going to manifest it at all is just dumb."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That piece, is that to get the signal from the helmet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that gets the signal from the helmet into the video system on the Space Station. Even though it’s called wireless, there’s still a lot of wires associated with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a lot of equipment there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were working with the Rockwell Downey people on putting the antennas on the Shuttle sill, and there were seven of them on the sill. There was one on the back, and then there were six, three on each side. It’s a highly integrated system, no matter which vehicle it’s on. One of the Rockwell guys made the comment one time, he says, “You know, for a wireless system, this has an awful lot of cable.” You had to run wires from all the antennas to the transceiver box underneath the payload bay liner so that this thing would work. The only wireless bit is from the antennas to the EVA crew. Everything else is all wired up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something has to receive those signals, and then it has to go somewhere."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.373949234480357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that gets the signal from the helmet into the video system on the Space Station. Even though it’s called wireless, there’s still a lot of wires associated with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a lot of equipment there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were working with the Rockwell Downey people on putting the antennas on the Shuttle sill, and there were seven of them on the sill. There was one on the back, and then there were six, three on each side. It’s a highly integrated system, no matter which vehicle it’s on. One of the Rockwell guys made the comment one time, he says, “You know, for a wireless system, this has an awful lot of cable.” You had to run wires from all the antennas to the transceiver box underneath the payload bay liner so that this thing would work. The only wireless bit is from the antennas to the EVA crew. Everything else is all wired up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something has to receive those signals, and then it has to go somewhere."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They have to go somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is controlled from inside the Shuttle or the ISS."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.85994359386706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were working with the Rockwell Downey people on putting the antennas on the Shuttle sill, and there were seven of them on the sill. There was one on the back, and then there were six, three on each side. It’s a highly integrated system, no matter which vehicle it’s on. One of the Rockwell guys made the comment one time, he says, “You know, for a wireless system, this has an awful lot of cable.” You had to run wires from all the antennas to the transceiver box underneath the payload bay liner so that this thing would work. The only wireless bit is from the antennas to the EVA crew. Everything else is all wired up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something has to receive those signals, and then it has to go somewhere."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They have to go somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is controlled from inside the Shuttle or the ISS."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The EVA crew, the only control they have is the on/off button. Every now and again, they would bump the helmet and turn it off. The guys then go, “Um, uh, we’re not getting any signal. Could you push your helmet button?” You will hear that every now and again. They had just accidentally bumped into it and turned it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people were working on that team, to work on that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.177715104296734, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They have to go somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is controlled from inside the Shuttle or the ISS."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The EVA crew, the only control they have is the on/off button. Every now and again, they would bump the helmet and turn it off. The guys then go, “Um, uh, we’re not getting any signal. Could you push your helmet button?” You will hear that every now and again. They had just accidentally bumped into it and turned it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people were working on that team, to work on that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, let’s see. We had, probably off and on, somewhere between 70 to 100. The main components actually came out of the racecar system. There was a company in Baltimore, Maryland?Broadcast Sports?and they built this system, but to run on NASCAR cars, so they could have video of what the race was like from inside the car. We adapted that for space. It actually came out of the sports world. It was owned at the time by a Canadian company, and they were just as pleased as punch that they had hardware flying in space. That was a big deal to them. From a PR perspective, they really cashed in on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did NASA approach the company, do you know?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 25.753016782551924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The EVA crew, the only control they have is the on/off button. Every now and again, they would bump the helmet and turn it off. The guys then go, “Um, uh, we’re not getting any signal. Could you push your helmet button?” You will hear that every now and again. They had just accidentally bumped into it and turned it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people were working on that team, to work on that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, let’s see. We had, probably off and on, somewhere between 70 to 100. The main components actually came out of the racecar system. There was a company in Baltimore, Maryland?Broadcast Sports?and they built this system, but to run on NASCAR cars, so they could have video of what the race was like from inside the car. We adapted that for space. It actually came out of the sports world. It was owned at the time by a Canadian company, and they were just as pleased as punch that they had hardware flying in space. That was a big deal to them. From a PR perspective, they really cashed in on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did NASA approach the company, do you know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually I think when we wrote the request for proposal for the task order for Lockheed, I think they were the ones that found them. We basically took their hardware and made it suitable for working in a vacuum and the high and cold temperatures of space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. It’s that behind-the-scenes stuff you don’t always know about what happens up there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.806193558706077, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually I think when we wrote the request for proposal for the task order for Lockheed, I think they were the ones that found them. We basically took their hardware and made it suitable for working in a vacuum and the high and cold temperatures of space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. It’s that behind-the-scenes stuff you don’t always know about what happens up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we were building the Space Station version, we were having trouble getting some components. I talked to our Lockheed project manager. I said, “Carol, where are these components?” She went back to her procurement office, tried to [find out from them where the components were]. They were getting to be a long pole in the tent. We needed to get them in so that we could keep building the system. They found out, “Well, they’re on a slow boat from China.” They really were. They were coming from China, and it was on a freighter somewhere, in between there and California, wherever they were supposed to be received. That can happen.\\n\\n Another time we sent back a transceiver to Broadcast Sports in Baltimore, Maryland. It was sent by one of the overnight carriers. I won't tell you which one. It ended up in like, Baluchistan. We’re going, “Um, uh, you need to get that back to the United States.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quickly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Yes, really, how are you going to get it through Russian customs? I don’t want to know. Just get it back.” Yes, that was weird."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you there when the first picture started coming through?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 22.006881731895643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we were building the Space Station version, we were having trouble getting some components. I talked to our Lockheed project manager. I said, “Carol, where are these components?” She went back to her procurement office, tried to [find out from them where the components were]. They were getting to be a long pole in the tent. We needed to get them in so that we could keep building the system. They found out, “Well, they’re on a slow boat from China.” They really were. They were coming from China, and it was on a freighter somewhere, in between there and California, wherever they were supposed to be received. That can happen.\\n\\n Another time we sent back a transceiver to Broadcast Sports in Baltimore, Maryland. It was sent by one of the overnight carriers. I won't tell you which one. It ended up in like, Baluchistan. We’re going, “Um, uh, you need to get that back to the United States.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quickly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Yes, really, how are you going to get it through Russian customs? I don’t want to know. Just get it back.” Yes, that was weird."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you there when the first picture started coming through?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes. We actually had one of the backrooms in Building 30. They had set up so we could monitor what was going on. On that particular mission, we did have a failure of one of the helmet cameras. It turns out that there was a component in the helmet piece that needed a particular kind of electronic protection. It needed a diode in it, and we didn’t put that in there. We had to go back in and rework those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It had to be pretty rewarding, to be able to get that kind of a view."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.40372158496516, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There aren’t. The UHF band is particularly, and the S band is getting to be the same way. It’s particularly crowded. You really have to figure out how to get what you want, or change your design, like we ended up having to do, so we wouldn’t interfere with these other satellites and systems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the way it still works? It just bounces around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s the way it still works. In fact, the Space Station?we flew that, in what? 2002? I think the first one went up? It’s still flying today. We have, knock wood, not had any failures."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Has the system changed since then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nope. Still the same system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s durable. That says a lot, considering that was thirteen years ago."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.013140656858955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If you use it right, it worked great. It’s still working great today. I wouldn’t call that a failure. There wasn’t obviously enough communication between what the operators were going to do with it. They just didn’t bother telling us, “Oh, we’re going to keep trying to open the iris, or close the iris.” It turns out that the camera system has an automatic gain control, so it automatically compensates for light to darkness things anyway. I don’t think those open and close iris commands have been used very much at all, now that we understand how the system works."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How the camera itself works."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How the camera itself works, yes. It’s a Sony camera. It’s a little bitty thing. It’s only about three or four inches long, and half-inch in diameter, maybe? It uses a CCD [charge-coupled device]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it the same camera, or is one of them still, and the other one video?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it’s all video. It’s all video. You could take a still from it, but it’s real-time video. It’s not HD [high definition] or anything like that. I don’t know if they’ll ever convert to doing something like that, but obviously they use it every time they go out. In fact, they even adapted it for use on the Russian space suit, and the Russian space suit doesn’t look anything like the American space suit, but they’ve adapted it. I don’t know how they put it on their helmet, whether they zip-tie it down, or something. It’s kludged. The Russians conducted a space walk the other day, and you can see the wireless video system sitting on their helmet. They figured out how to stick it on there, and how to power it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Share it with the neighbors?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.347934063176616, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How the camera itself works, yes. It’s a Sony camera. It’s a little bitty thing. It’s only about three or four inches long, and half-inch in diameter, maybe? It uses a CCD [charge-coupled device]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it the same camera, or is one of them still, and the other one video?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it’s all video. It’s all video. You could take a still from it, but it’s real-time video. It’s not HD [high definition] or anything like that. I don’t know if they’ll ever convert to doing something like that, but obviously they use it every time they go out. In fact, they even adapted it for use on the Russian space suit, and the Russian space suit doesn’t look anything like the American space suit, but they’ve adapted it. I don’t know how they put it on their helmet, whether they zip-tie it down, or something. It’s kludged. The Russians conducted a space walk the other day, and you can see the wireless video system sitting on their helmet. They figured out how to stick it on there, and how to power it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Share it with the neighbors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I saw it described in an article that it was a “situational awareness tool.” I thought that was pretty interesting, that that’s what it’s for."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.831037847974017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it’s all video. It’s all video. You could take a still from it, but it’s real-time video. It’s not HD [high definition] or anything like that. I don’t know if they’ll ever convert to doing something like that, but obviously they use it every time they go out. In fact, they even adapted it for use on the Russian space suit, and the Russian space suit doesn’t look anything like the American space suit, but they’ve adapted it. I don’t know how they put it on their helmet, whether they zip-tie it down, or something. It’s kludged. The Russians conducted a space walk the other day, and you can see the wireless video system sitting on their helmet. They figured out how to stick it on there, and how to power it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Share it with the neighbors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I saw it described in an article that it was a “situational awareness tool.” I thought that was pretty interesting, that that’s what it’s for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is, because if it failed during EVA, they’re not going to stop the EVA. It’s just going to make it harder for them because now they can’t see what’s going on, especially if something goes wrong. On Space Station when they had to fold up the arrays in order to move that piece of truss, they could see what was going on, and why it wasn’t working. They could watch the astronaut as he was way out on the end of the arm, trying to?I think they didn’t zip-tie it together, so it wouldn’t fold up again. Yes, it’s been a remarkable system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "An interesting project to get a chance to work on, too."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.47893094219335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I saw it described in an article that it was a “situational awareness tool.” I thought that was pretty interesting, that that’s what it’s for."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is, because if it failed during EVA, they’re not going to stop the EVA. It’s just going to make it harder for them because now they can’t see what’s going on, especially if something goes wrong. On Space Station when they had to fold up the arrays in order to move that piece of truss, they could see what was going on, and why it wasn’t working. They could watch the astronaut as he was way out on the end of the arm, trying to?I think they didn’t zip-tie it together, so it wouldn’t fold up again. Yes, it’s been a remarkable system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "An interesting project to get a chance to work on, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed working with the people on it. That’s one of the best things about working on projects like that. You work with folks?pretty intensely?for several years at a time. Then to see the fruition of what you’ve done. Flying is really very satisfying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like throughout your career, you were doing the same type of engineering, but like you said, you didn’t know anything about avionics. Then you had to do that. You were learning things in the moment as you were working on these different teams.\\n\\n Is the environment pretty conducive to that? You became a manager in the ‘90s. Did they send you to training to help you learn management skills, or because you’re an engineer, you’re supposed to be able to do management? I’ve heard that that doesn’t necessarily work all the time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.421034380214834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is, because if it failed during EVA, they’re not going to stop the EVA. It’s just going to make it harder for them because now they can’t see what’s going on, especially if something goes wrong. On Space Station when they had to fold up the arrays in order to move that piece of truss, they could see what was going on, and why it wasn’t working. They could watch the astronaut as he was way out on the end of the arm, trying to?I think they didn’t zip-tie it together, so it wouldn’t fold up again. Yes, it’s been a remarkable system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "An interesting project to get a chance to work on, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed working with the people on it. That’s one of the best things about working on projects like that. You work with folks?pretty intensely?for several years at a time. Then to see the fruition of what you’ve done. Flying is really very satisfying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like throughout your career, you were doing the same type of engineering, but like you said, you didn’t know anything about avionics. Then you had to do that. You were learning things in the moment as you were working on these different teams.\\n\\n Is the environment pretty conducive to that? You became a manager in the ‘90s. Did they send you to training to help you learn management skills, or because you’re an engineer, you’re supposed to be able to do management? I’ve heard that that doesn’t necessarily work all the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can I say it as a sarcastic laugh? No. Just because you’re an engineer does not mean you can manage your way out of a paper bag."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve heard other people say that, but I just wanted to throw that out there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.32226466693189, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can I say it as a sarcastic laugh? No. Just because you’re an engineer does not mean you can manage your way out of a paper bag."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve heard other people say that, but I just wanted to throw that out there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there have been some really brilliant engineers, just fantastic engineers, but as managers, they just fail miserably. I won't name any names, but I’ve worked for some of them. They are fantastic. They can scribble equations from here and back again, but can they manage anything? No, I’m sorry to say.\\n\\n Once you get selected for a management position, there’s a mandatory set of training classes you have to have, so you go through all of that. In fact, when you’re first selected, you’re on a probation period. Not every engineer can be a manager. Not every engineer can be a project manager, either. Some of them are really good at project engineering. They’re really good engineers, but then put them into a project management position where you have to keep track of schedules, and budgets, and all the icky things. I don’t know if you want to call it that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Details."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re necessary. They’re very different from tinkering in the lab. If you can’t do those things, then you can’t be project manager. You have to be able to delegate, work with people, understand what they’re doing. You don’t have to know all the nitty gritty details as a project manger, but you have to understand how the system is supposed to work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you have to accept that, too. You don’t have to know all those details. I guess, sometimes it’s hard, especially for someone who’s worked in details, like an engineer, who has their hand on all the pieces of it, to back off and let somebody else do it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 40.358071852146544, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there have been some really brilliant engineers, just fantastic engineers, but as managers, they just fail miserably. I won't name any names, but I’ve worked for some of them. They are fantastic. They can scribble equations from here and back again, but can they manage anything? No, I’m sorry to say.\\n\\n Once you get selected for a management position, there’s a mandatory set of training classes you have to have, so you go through all of that. In fact, when you’re first selected, you’re on a probation period. Not every engineer can be a manager. Not every engineer can be a project manager, either. Some of them are really good at project engineering. They’re really good engineers, but then put them into a project management position where you have to keep track of schedules, and budgets, and all the icky things. I don’t know if you want to call it that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Details."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re necessary. They’re very different from tinkering in the lab. If you can’t do those things, then you can’t be project manager. You have to be able to delegate, work with people, understand what they’re doing. You don’t have to know all the nitty gritty details as a project manger, but you have to understand how the system is supposed to work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you have to accept that, too. You don’t have to know all those details. I guess, sometimes it’s hard, especially for someone who’s worked in details, like an engineer, who has their hand on all the pieces of it, to back off and let somebody else do it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it takes a certain personality type, or you have to be able to learn to work that way, and that’s harder to do than having it innate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you enjoy project management?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 44.8423020579406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They’re necessary. They’re very different from tinkering in the lab. If you can’t do those things, then you can’t be project manager. You have to be able to delegate, work with people, understand what they’re doing. You don’t have to know all the nitty gritty details as a project manger, but you have to understand how the system is supposed to work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you have to accept that, too. You don’t have to know all those details. I guess, sometimes it’s hard, especially for someone who’s worked in details, like an engineer, who has their hand on all the pieces of it, to back off and let somebody else do it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it takes a certain personality type, or you have to be able to learn to work that way, and that’s harder to do than having it innate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you enjoy project management?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I loved it. Most fun I’ve ever had working at NASA’s been being a project manager. It’s just a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In that time period after that one, I guess it was around 2002, 2003. You were on a rotational position?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 47.60255784215622, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it takes a certain personality type, or you have to be able to learn to work that way, and that’s harder to do than having it innate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you enjoy project management?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I loved it. Most fun I’ve ever had working at NASA’s been being a project manager. It’s just a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In that time period after that one, I guess it was around 2002, 2003. You were on a rotational position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I spent a year over in the Space Station Program Office in OB [Vehicle Office]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were you doing over there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 48.44728649128469, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I loved it. Most fun I’ve ever had working at NASA’s been being a project manager. It’s just a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In that time period after that one, I guess it was around 2002, 2003. You were on a rotational position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I spent a year over in the Space Station Program Office in OB [Vehicle Office]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were you doing over there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I actually was doing risk management with the very first iteration of the IRMA risk management system. The Integrated Risk Management Application. Space Station had developed it to start figuring out how to manage risk, and I was in charge of getting the system managers to input the risks, and all the details about the risk, and getting presented in front of the Space Station program manager.\\n\\n It was a big, huge learning curve, because people were not used to that kind of structured approach to risk management, and felt it was somewhat frivolous, and not important, and why am I doing this? I can’t say I didn’t have the same opinion at the time, but once you go through the rationale behind things, it helps you think about where do I spend my resources?whether it’s time, money, or people?relative to the problem at hand? Is this going to be a problem that’s going to cause me severe heartburn down the road?\\n\\n For years, the biggest Space Station risk had to do with working with the Russians. In fact, for all I know, that’s still the biggest Space Station risk. The mitigation of it is day to day as to how we deal with it. Then there’s the ones that, yes, we think that could happen, but it doesn’t have a big impact. Or this is kind of moderate, if I just throw a little money in solving this particular part of the problem, then my chances of being successful go way up. It’s a very structured approach to understanding where the problems might lie. That’s what was I was doing for that year in OB."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And identifying those risks."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 53.83031832364966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I spent a year over in the Space Station Program Office in OB [Vehicle Office]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were you doing over there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I actually was doing risk management with the very first iteration of the IRMA risk management system. The Integrated Risk Management Application. Space Station had developed it to start figuring out how to manage risk, and I was in charge of getting the system managers to input the risks, and all the details about the risk, and getting presented in front of the Space Station program manager.\\n\\n It was a big, huge learning curve, because people were not used to that kind of structured approach to risk management, and felt it was somewhat frivolous, and not important, and why am I doing this? I can’t say I didn’t have the same opinion at the time, but once you go through the rationale behind things, it helps you think about where do I spend my resources?whether it’s time, money, or people?relative to the problem at hand? Is this going to be a problem that’s going to cause me severe heartburn down the road?\\n\\n For years, the biggest Space Station risk had to do with working with the Russians. In fact, for all I know, that’s still the biggest Space Station risk. The mitigation of it is day to day as to how we deal with it. Then there’s the ones that, yes, we think that could happen, but it doesn’t have a big impact. Or this is kind of moderate, if I just throw a little money in solving this particular part of the problem, then my chances of being successful go way up. It’s a very structured approach to understanding where the problems might lie. That’s what was I was doing for that year in OB."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And identifying those risks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Helping people understand how to use the system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did the identification of the risks come from? Was that a team approach?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 37.08157493961045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I spent the month or so, twiddling my thumbs, in a way. That’s when I wrote the history of the Orbiter Boom Sensor System. That’s an SP document. You should be able to find it. Then a guy who I worked with on the wireless video system from the Orbiter Project Office had transitioned over to the Orion activity. He was on the proposal evaluation team. In fact, two of them approached me, and said, “How would you like to come work GFE [Government Furnished Equipment] in the Orion Project area?”\\n\\n I said, “Well, hmm, that sounds interesting. Let’s go to talk to Brian [L.] Anderson.”\\n\\n They said, “Let’s go talk to Brian.” I went and talked to Brian, and we decided that that might be a good thing, that he would like me to be on his team, and so off I went. Sometimes things happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Explain what that was going to entail, or what you were moving into."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Orion, at that time, had a pretty significant chunk of advance development work going on that was not going to be from the prime contractors. There was also some pretty significant Government Furnished Equipment activities, the parachute system being the biggest one. They wanted to have someone come in and manage those advance development activities, and any of the other GFE, and so that’s what I was being hired to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was during the same time period of when [President George W.] Bush announced the Vision for Space Exploration, and the CEV [Crew Exploration Vehicle]. That office actually reorged, or it became the Crew Module Office?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Once Skip came in?Skip [Caris A.] Hatfield came in?he reorganized and then he offered me the Crew Module Office job. I said, “Are you sure?” Not in quite those words, but yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk more about what you were doing during that time period in that office?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 23.793078527342452, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The rockets? Yes, we had that as part of the study as well. Retrorockets. The Russians have?part of their engineering process is to over-design. They make things really very sturdy, and end up being very heavy as a result, because they don’t optimize the way our engineering culture as evolved. Their systems are generally?and I’m speaking broadly here?can generally be simple, and not complicated, but being very heavy as a result. Whereas we tend to optimize things for weight because we want to put up as much as we can, so we tend to make things very lightweight, which can also include a lot of complexity. Things like retrorockets can be very complex in our engineering culture. We looked at them, but not for very long because of the complexity, and the system actually ends up weighing more, because you have to have propellant then, and have to have tanks, and have valves, and plumbing. It adds up very quickly. The simpler is usually lighter, if you’re worried about weight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the parachute assembly system? That was one of those four that you were talking about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The parachutes have been used on the test flights that we’ve had already. The PA-1 test that happened out at White Sands [Test Facility, New Mexico] and the first one that they launched out of Kennedy a couple years ago. Those were the parachutes that we developed here at JSC, with parachute companies out in California. They do a lot of test flights on the parachute systems out at Yuma [U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona], so we have a contract with the military to use their bases and airplanes to throw the sleds out the backs of the airplanes and watch the parachutes go out. It’s really very neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you been out there for the testing then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was never able to go out there for the testing. I’ve only seen the videos of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything else during that? I think we talked about three of them. What was the fourth one you mentioned?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.881198363713835, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The parachutes have been used on the test flights that we’ve had already. The PA-1 test that happened out at White Sands [Test Facility, New Mexico] and the first one that they launched out of Kennedy a couple years ago. Those were the parachutes that we developed here at JSC, with parachute companies out in California. They do a lot of test flights on the parachute systems out at Yuma [U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona], so we have a contract with the military to use their bases and airplanes to throw the sleds out the backs of the airplanes and watch the parachutes go out. It’s really very neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you been out there for the testing then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was never able to go out there for the testing. I’ve only seen the videos of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything else during that? I think we talked about three of them. What was the fourth one you mentioned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The fourth one the LOX/methane. That ended up getting cancelled in January of 2006, shortly after we started, because of budget issues. [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] decided that they didn’t want to spend money on that aspect of things, which was a huge disappointment to a lot of people. That’s, unfortunately, the business of this side of space. We don’t spend money in space. We spend money on Earth. There’s no Walmart on the Moon yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, not yet."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.544689337918314, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The fourth one the LOX/methane. That ended up getting cancelled in January of 2006, shortly after we started, because of budget issues. [NASA] Headquarters [Washington, DC] decided that they didn’t want to spend money on that aspect of things, which was a huge disappointment to a lot of people. That’s, unfortunately, the business of this side of space. We don’t spend money in space. We spend money on Earth. There’s no Walmart on the Moon yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, not yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They might be able to figure it out. Elon Musk is working on it really hard. One of the interesting things about when we were doing the crew module, was?obviously that was after Columbia?and they had done a medical study of what happened to the crew. That is highly sensitive information, and only a limited amount of people have been able to see the results of that report. I was able to see the results of that report, only to help us understand how we could make it safer for the crew. I was also the manager of the crew module. Obviously I had responsibility for everything that goes inside the capsule, which one of things was the seats. I had to understand, as the manager of that, what happened during Columbia and what could be done to mitigate what happened to the crew in case of an accident. That was very emotionally taxing, to understand truly what happened to those people when Columbia disintegrated. It was very sad.\\n\\n When we were taking a break, we talked about NASCAR some. NASCAR also has what’s called the head and neck system, where they have a way of attaching the helmet to the structure of the car, so that you don’t have the head snapping back and forth or side to side. That’s one of the things that was being considered to help keep the crew safe in the capsule, is some way of stabilizing the head."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it adopted, or was something similar done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I don’t know, because I had left the program by the time those decisions were being made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you mentioned, after a couple of years, you were moving on again."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.049654819909236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They might be able to figure it out. Elon Musk is working on it really hard. One of the interesting things about when we were doing the crew module, was?obviously that was after Columbia?and they had done a medical study of what happened to the crew. That is highly sensitive information, and only a limited amount of people have been able to see the results of that report. I was able to see the results of that report, only to help us understand how we could make it safer for the crew. I was also the manager of the crew module. Obviously I had responsibility for everything that goes inside the capsule, which one of things was the seats. I had to understand, as the manager of that, what happened during Columbia and what could be done to mitigate what happened to the crew in case of an accident. That was very emotionally taxing, to understand truly what happened to those people when Columbia disintegrated. It was very sad.\\n\\n When we were taking a break, we talked about NASCAR some. NASCAR also has what’s called the head and neck system, where they have a way of attaching the helmet to the structure of the car, so that you don’t have the head snapping back and forth or side to side. That’s one of the things that was being considered to help keep the crew safe in the capsule, is some way of stabilizing the head."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it adopted, or was something similar done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I don’t know, because I had left the program by the time those decisions were being made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you mentioned, after a couple of years, you were moving on again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, when Skip Hatfield was relieved of his management duties, then Mark [S.] Geyer came in, and he basically tossed everybody out on their ear, and I was one of them. That wasn’t of my own volition. I had to move. I was told, “You’re gone.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that when Constellation was cancelled?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.83294979989915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I don’t know, because I had left the program by the time those decisions were being made."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you mentioned, after a couple of years, you were moving on again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, when Skip Hatfield was relieved of his management duties, then Mark [S.] Geyer came in, and he basically tossed everybody out on their ear, and I was one of them. That wasn’t of my own volition. I had to move. I was told, “You’re gone.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that when Constellation was cancelled?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would have been around the 2008 time period? When you went to the next position?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.92549977766572, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, when Skip Hatfield was relieved of his management duties, then Mark [S.] Geyer came in, and he basically tossed everybody out on their ear, and I was one of them. That wasn’t of my own volition. I had to move. I was told, “You’re gone.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that when Constellation was cancelled?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would have been around the 2008 time period? When you went to the next position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was pretty close. That was, personally, very distressing, but having Constellation being cancelled at nearly the same time just threw the whole monkey wrench into things. It was just unbelievably ungodly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bad year all the way around, wasn’t it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 34.36166641962858, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would have been around the 2008 time period? When you went to the next position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was pretty close. That was, personally, very distressing, but having Constellation being cancelled at nearly the same time just threw the whole monkey wrench into things. It was just unbelievably ungodly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bad year all the way around, wasn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It really was. I’m glad that the design and development is proceeding, but it was not a personally happy time, to say the least."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I could imagine that it was a little stressful. You moved into the assistant to the manager of the Program Engineering and Integration Office? Do you want to talk about some of your experiences working there for a couple of years?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.476829844764818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you have to kind of go through the logic chain with them. “Oh, okay. I get it now.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine there’s all kinds of engineers."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there are. I did the 4D assessment stuff for a long time through CEV, and then again in Engineering to some extent. You do find out that there’s people who are very people-oriented. You have to make the people happy. Then there are people like me, who we get totally task-focused. Yes, we know there are people out there, but we don’t care how they feel. I’m exaggerating to a degree. Then there are engineers who are so detailed-oriented you can’t get them out of their equations to save their lives. Then there’s the folks?there’s another category that I can’t remember what it is right off hand, but again, it’s a more people-oriented side of things. Most of the people at JSC might surprise you?or maybe not?that they’re all detail-oriented. There are times when I’ve have had to sit up in front of meetings and listen to presentations and go, “Oh, okay, so your point is x?” They’re going through all this detail, and I’ve snoozed off long ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s get to the bottom line."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Get to the bottom line. What’s your answer? I don’t necessarily care all the details of how you got there. To the person presenting, it’s very important that you know all that tedious stuff. You have to be able to work with the different kinds of people and how they function, and not try to offend them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would think that’s part of being a good project manager, too, is understanding your team and being able to work with all kinds of people. I can imagine a lot of people aren’t able to do that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 13.863144271960909, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there are. I did the 4D assessment stuff for a long time through CEV, and then again in Engineering to some extent. You do find out that there’s people who are very people-oriented. You have to make the people happy. Then there are people like me, who we get totally task-focused. Yes, we know there are people out there, but we don’t care how they feel. I’m exaggerating to a degree. Then there are engineers who are so detailed-oriented you can’t get them out of their equations to save their lives. Then there’s the folks?there’s another category that I can’t remember what it is right off hand, but again, it’s a more people-oriented side of things. Most of the people at JSC might surprise you?or maybe not?that they’re all detail-oriented. There are times when I’ve have had to sit up in front of meetings and listen to presentations and go, “Oh, okay, so your point is x?” They’re going through all this detail, and I’ve snoozed off long ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s get to the bottom line."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Get to the bottom line. What’s your answer? I don’t necessarily care all the details of how you got there. To the person presenting, it’s very important that you know all that tedious stuff. You have to be able to work with the different kinds of people and how they function, and not try to offend them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would think that’s part of being a good project manager, too, is understanding your team and being able to work with all kinds of people. I can imagine a lot of people aren’t able to do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there are some who are not so good at that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned iLIDS. That project was actually something that you started working on, and then was cancelled while you were working as a project manager. Do you want to talk about that for a minute, and the process, which is maybe not pleasant, but it is something that has to be done when a project is cancelled. You have to shut it down, or it has to be transitioned."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.658095979180001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everything has been challenging. Doing the OBSS has probably been the most because of the technical issues, the schedule issues, the environment they were working on, and the reasons why we were doing it. Starting up the CEV, when I started in there, we were trying to run a project at the same time that we were trying to build a program office with its infrastructure. We didn’t have a way to write a CR [change request]. Here we’re trying to write CRs, just like we’re trying to make a change. Well wait a minute, we don’t have a system to make a change. It was hitting the ground running, and trying to do all that. From overall, I’d have to say it was OBSS."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything you’re most proud of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think wireless video, frankly. I mean, OBSS was useful in that it proved that we could do that, and that we didn’t find anything, thank God, but wireless video’s probably been the most useful project that I was involved in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and still being used."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s still being used today, and I expect that whatever suits or whatever EVA equipment is built in the future, they’re going to put cameras on it. They’re not going to go cameraless anymore. It may be only for situational awareness, but by God, a picture’s worth a thousand words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A big change from when you walked in the door to what’s happening now at JSC is there’s a female Director of Engineering. I believe you’ve worked with Lauri [N.] Hansen in the past."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.286773310200001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think wireless video, frankly. I mean, OBSS was useful in that it proved that we could do that, and that we didn’t find anything, thank God, but wireless video’s probably been the most useful project that I was involved in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and still being used."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s still being used today, and I expect that whatever suits or whatever EVA equipment is built in the future, they’re going to put cameras on it. They’re not going to go cameraless anymore. It may be only for situational awareness, but by God, a picture’s worth a thousand words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A big change from when you walked in the door to what’s happening now at JSC is there’s a female Director of Engineering. I believe you’ve worked with Lauri [N.] Hansen in the past."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a big change, and of course, as you mentioned, there’s been more females involved, and just a lot of different work situations. Are there other changes? You’ve talked about some of the culture, we’ve talked a little bit about technology, but if you were looking back, some of the things that you’ve seen the evolution of, the progression that you feel might have made a great impact on how engineering field within space exploration or at JSC has been able to advance, and been able to get their work done so much more whether efficiently, or comprehensively? Are there technology tools and the different way that you do communication? Any of those types of those things that you can think of that have made significant impacts on how you were able to get your work done? I’m sure it was all the reorgs that you went through."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.985303678000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s still being used today, and I expect that whatever suits or whatever EVA equipment is built in the future, they’re going to put cameras on it. They’re not going to go cameraless anymore. It may be only for situational awareness, but by God, a picture’s worth a thousand words."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A big change from when you walked in the door to what’s happening now at JSC is there’s a female Director of Engineering. I believe you’ve worked with Lauri [N.] Hansen in the past."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a big change, and of course, as you mentioned, there’s been more females involved, and just a lot of different work situations. Are there other changes? You’ve talked about some of the culture, we’ve talked a little bit about technology, but if you were looking back, some of the things that you’ve seen the evolution of, the progression that you feel might have made a great impact on how engineering field within space exploration or at JSC has been able to advance, and been able to get their work done so much more whether efficiently, or comprehensively? Are there technology tools and the different way that you do communication? Any of those types of those things that you can think of that have made significant impacts on how you were able to get your work done? I’m sure it was all the reorgs that you went through."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, yes. All the reorgs. I started in [Building] 15, moved to 45, came back to 15, went to 13. Yes, nevermind."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk about the difference of how you communicated when you first came here to how you end up communicating when you left. Email seemed to make such a big difference on how people started talking to each other."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yes, I knew all those guys. Jay [H.] Greene?had my run-ins with Jay. John [F.] Muratore, that was a fun one. One thing, I guess, just from a personal perspective, is that I am an introvert by nature. I get tired of people after a while, so that’s when I want to go home, and just crawl into my corner, and be by myself, and recharge. I tell people that at work, and I have a very different aspect to my personality when I’m at work, and dealing with people, and building projects, and working. They go, “You’re a what? No.”\\n\\n It is possible for introverts to be extremely effective in what they do. You don’t have to be an extrovert to be successful. Unfortunately most of the world are extroverts, and they don’t believe us. That’s one of the things that I’ve found, is that I’m an “I.” I’m not an “E.” I can still utilize everything that I know and be very effective, but at the end of the day, it’s like “No, I don’t want to deal with you anymore.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s probably why you remained as sane as you did. That and the needlepoint, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s what’s in here [pointing at bag]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have to have that other part of your life to go back to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. You have to have something outside of work. I’ve known far too many people that all they know is work. In fact, there was a woman I ran into a few weeks ago, she’s worked at JSC for 40-some-odd years. She’s afraid to retire because she doesn’t know what she’s going to do. That’s all she’s ever done is work. She’s got children, but she’s never developed any outside interests. To me, that’s really sad. That’s not balance in life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it goes back to that whole work/life balance. You have to have a balance."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00475:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s what’s in here [pointing at bag]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have to have that other part of your life to go back to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. You have to have something outside of work. I’ve known far too many people that all they know is work. In fact, there was a woman I ran into a few weeks ago, she’s worked at JSC for 40-some-odd years. She’s afraid to retire because she doesn’t know what she’s going to do. That’s all she’s ever done is work. She’s got children, but she’s never developed any outside interests. To me, that’s really sad. That’s not balance in life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it goes back to that whole work/life balance. You have to have a balance."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There have been people who literally died at their desks because they don’t have any outside anything to do. I don’t care whether it’s gardening or whatever. You need to have something outside of work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well thank you very much for coming in today and talking to us. We appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 39.552271053343176, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up in Silver Spring, Maryland, born and raised in Silver Spring, Maryland, in the same house I grew up in for the first 14 years of my life. So quite sedentary, the product of a British mother and an American father. But then in high school, my parents, my father got a job with USAID and he took his family over to Kenya to work for him to be the deputy director of an agricultural USAID project. And for the mother, myself and my brother to be in Nairobi and attending the International School of Kenya. So did the last part of my growing up there. And I well, the last I would say a year and a half, I think in Chicago, after that project ended for him, he decided to relocate his family to North Shore Chicago. So did the last part of me growing up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had some international experience before that as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, which I think certainly. In, you know, especially the time in Kenya bumping around in in Land Rovers on safari with my family really planted that seed of wild, really instilled in me a love of nature and nature, desire to protect it and a love of cultures. I think that's really what I got from my kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, can you tell me about that later on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As long as we go through all of this. So you applied for the Peace Corps. How long did it take to get into the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 32.835856725936864, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, which I think certainly. In, you know, especially the time in Kenya bumping around in in Land Rovers on safari with my family really planted that seed of wild, really instilled in me a love of nature and nature, desire to protect it and a love of cultures. I think that's really what I got from my kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, can you tell me about that later on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As long as we go through all of this. So you applied for the Peace Corps. How long did it take to get into the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it took me about a year. I think maybe, maybe a little shy of a year. We were about nine or 10 months. But I applied, I think, in the fall of 2000, I think by summer of 2001 and received acceptance. It wasn't a fluid process or a quick process necessarily, because they offered me initially the opportunity to go to, I had initially wanted to go to Latin America. I had grown up with Spanish as my second language and in formal, formal school. But they didn't have any slots in Latin America. And I said, well, OK, well, the next best thing is maybe Francophone. I knew that I wanted to use the Peace Corps as an opportunity to get some language skills. And so they said Francophone Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they, where had they offered before?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 23.15095191770763, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As long as we go through all of this. So you applied for the Peace Corps. How long did it take to get into the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it took me about a year. I think maybe, maybe a little shy of a year. We were about nine or 10 months. But I applied, I think, in the fall of 2000, I think by summer of 2001 and received acceptance. It wasn't a fluid process or a quick process necessarily, because they offered me initially the opportunity to go to, I had initially wanted to go to Latin America. I had grown up with Spanish as my second language and in formal, formal school. But they didn't have any slots in Latin America. And I said, well, OK, well, the next best thing is maybe Francophone. I knew that I wanted to use the Peace Corps as an opportunity to get some language skills. And so they said Francophone Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they, where had they offered before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first one that they offered me, they weren't able to offer me anything in my first choice, which is Latin America. But so the second one was Francophone Africa, sub-Saharan Africa somewhere. And the one that they offered me was Morocco, first Mauritania. And I said, I think I would early terminate if I went to MIT, but then Morocco. But in that case, I felt I really wanted to I was concerned that I would learn more Berber and less French because the French had spoken mainly in the cities of Morocco, whereas the Berber and Arabic are spoken more in the hinterland. So I felt like it would be enough for me to come out with some solid skills that would translate well into a professional context. I wanted to go to more of a black African sub- Saharan African country. So then the third choice they offered me was Benin. And I said, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of a program were you in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.475768812235376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in country there was a two day staging, I think is what they called it in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, an opportunity for us to get together and really just go around the room and introduce ourselves, I believe, and get some basic nuts, bolts things before we boarded a plane. And then from there we boarded a plane. We went to Cotonou, the commercial capital of Benin, which, by the way, was a country I'd never heard of before. I was invited to go to this country. I had to look it up on a map when I went. But we landed in Benin and spent a couple of days and then, well, perhaps maybe more than a couple of days, about a week, I would say. And then before we were we were divided into our groups. And then we had different trainings based on different programs in different parts of the country for the environmental action."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which group were you in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the environmental action program and that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not education. But you were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was yeah. It was not education. Most of the education, as I recall, there was an education program in Benin was English education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you said you were diverted, divided into your groups, what group were you part of? Was it just dividing you in different sections, different concentration?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.528632013594862, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the environmental action program and that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not education. But you were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was yeah. It was not education. Most of the education, as I recall, there was an education program in Benin was English education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you said you were diverted, divided into your groups, what group were you part of? Was it just dividing you in different sections, different concentration?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, what was actually just still it was still everybody in the environmental program. But in my case, a number of programs went in at the same time. So we had volunteers who were small business enterprise volunteers, volunteers who were education volunteers, mainly English education and community health, and then us, which is the environmental action, many of which were there. And there was, I would say, about 40, 40 or 50."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For environmental or education?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.58736890399429, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was yeah. It was not education. Most of the education, as I recall, there was an education program in Benin was English education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you said you were diverted, divided into your groups, what group were you part of? Was it just dividing you in different sections, different concentration?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, what was actually just still it was still everybody in the environmental program. But in my case, a number of programs went in at the same time. So we had volunteers who were small business enterprise volunteers, volunteers who were education volunteers, mainly English education and community health, and then us, which is the environmental action, many of which were there. And there was, I would say, about 40, 40 or 50."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For environmental or education?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the environmental it was much smaller. It was about, I would say thirteen oh thirteen of us in that. But as a as a class, as an entire class that was then divided into various programs, it was about 50 people, I think at the time. Benin enjoyed the distinction of being the country in the world with the highest per capita concentration of volunteers in the world. Yeah, it's a very small country, Benin, but there are well, it was relatively peaceful and open to receiving US foreign aid and assistance of any kind. And so I think because of that, we there was always a robust Peace Corps presence in in Benin. But so we flew into Cotonou. We can continue. And then for the Environmental Action Team, we then splintered off and did the remaining three months training in a city called Parakou, which is about smack dab in the middle of the country in the north."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the training like there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 35.21962593525964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We learned we learned the language for sure. We also did it was the cultural cross-cultural training was also quite significant. I mean, I have to hand it to the Peace Corps for really putting an emphasis on that. There was quite a lot of attention on the kinds of things that we might expect or might be coming up with and might be confronting when we got to our sites. It was, you know, from religious rituals to knowing how to greet people to, you know, how important small talk is in certain contexts to how you eat and which hand you eat it with, you know, eat with and all of these things. So there was there's quite a lot of emphasis and rightly so, on cross-cultural training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. So you finished the training. Did everybody in your group finish and did some people drop out, leave?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody in our group did finish. Yes, everybody was successful in that regard. Maybe there was one person who decided to ET and terminate early. But we Benin and we were certainly a good example of this. Benin did not have a of a high rate. Most everybody stayed their term. And for us, I think that was the case, that there's one person who dropped off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what happened after training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got to my village, my village was a village called Toucountouna, which I like to say was the most colorful that's the best name for a village in all of Benin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And talk a little bit about this village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.799871183694293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was. There had been previously. I wasn't the first. There was somebody who had been there before I was. And somebody I think two volunteers. It was one long ago and I think in the 60s, 70s, and there was a period of time where there was no volunteer. And then another one came a few years before I had he had gone off and married somebody from the village, actually, no. And so he you can imagine the big shoes I was had to fill if the first person or the last volunteers was Marinus, it was regarded in high esteem. And everybody knew him by his both his Anglo-Saxon name, but also his local name. About two months in, I also was given a local name, and that is Yakupov, Yorta."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yorta? Yorta."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yorta, it translated roughly to something like he for whom no one else can talk, can speak or something like this, that he who speaks well or something like this. It was it was an honor to have been given a local name. He was even more of an honor to have been given the name Yata ApoB, because the person who gave it was the super he was the mayor of the town. And guess what? His name was Yakupov. So it was sort of it was quite an honor to have been, you know, bequeathed the name of the person giving it. And very few people are called Yorta Yorta by."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The well-spoken one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well-spoken one, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you where did you live?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.999856870771435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yorta, it translated roughly to something like he for whom no one else can talk, can speak or something like this, that he who speaks well or something like this. It was it was an honor to have been given a local name. He was even more of an honor to have been given the name Yata ApoB, because the person who gave it was the super he was the mayor of the town. And guess what? His name was Yakupov. So it was sort of it was quite an honor to have been, you know, bequeathed the name of the person giving it. And very few people are called Yorta Yorta by."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The well-spoken one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well-spoken one, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you where did you live?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the town. I lived in the sort of on the outskirts of town near the mayor. I had my own compound. I was given my own compound."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A mud hut?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.33317430085715, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well-spoken one, something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you where did you live?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the town. I lived in the sort of on the outskirts of town near the mayor. I had my own compound. I was given my own compound."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A mud hut?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In my case, I was considered a VIP. And so they had actually constructed a cement block house for me, a you could say there was one big room, there was a small kitchen, a bedroom and a very and even smaller bathroom, just really just some place where you could put a bucket for a bucket shower and a colobus, you know, a gourd for the pouring mechanism. And that was my, and then when, when I got there, I realized there was no source of water point source for any water that I might need. So they had said that I could have a young girl bring massive Beadle's, massive pitchers of water on her small little head and drop them off in a cistern by my by my house every day. And I said, forget it. No way am I going to have some small girl do that for me. So I. I actually spent some of my own little money. I had the Peace Corps allowed us to have as a as a stipend to build a well on the property. So I helped to build the well on the property."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was water."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.92574922317461, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the town. I lived in the sort of on the outskirts of town near the mayor. I had my own compound. I was given my own compound."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A mud hut?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In my case, I was considered a VIP. And so they had actually constructed a cement block house for me, a you could say there was one big room, there was a small kitchen, a bedroom and a very and even smaller bathroom, just really just some place where you could put a bucket for a bucket shower and a colobus, you know, a gourd for the pouring mechanism. And that was my, and then when, when I got there, I realized there was no source of water point source for any water that I might need. So they had said that I could have a young girl bring massive Beadle's, massive pitchers of water on her small little head and drop them off in a cistern by my by my house every day. And I said, forget it. No way am I going to have some small girl do that for me. So I. I actually spent some of my own little money. I had the Peace Corps allowed us to have as a as a stipend to build a well on the property. So I helped to build the well on the property."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was water."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was then then after that there was a point source for water and a small latrine near there as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was had fancy digs,"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 28.806388025749566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In my case, I was considered a VIP. And so they had actually constructed a cement block house for me, a you could say there was one big room, there was a small kitchen, a bedroom and a very and even smaller bathroom, just really just some place where you could put a bucket for a bucket shower and a colobus, you know, a gourd for the pouring mechanism. And that was my, and then when, when I got there, I realized there was no source of water point source for any water that I might need. So they had said that I could have a young girl bring massive Beadle's, massive pitchers of water on her small little head and drop them off in a cistern by my by my house every day. And I said, forget it. No way am I going to have some small girl do that for me. So I. I actually spent some of my own little money. I had the Peace Corps allowed us to have as a as a stipend to build a well on the property. So I helped to build the well on the property."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was water."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was then then after that there was a point source for water and a small latrine near there as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was had fancy digs,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fancy digs, comparatively speaking. But I think compared to many of my other volunteers, you know, some sort of I got, you know, living, living, hard living compared to I think what I heard the other volunteers had, you know, I mean, remember, no electricity, no running water. And so those were two handicaps, if you like. But compared to I think there's other volunteers who had those sorts of amenities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let's talk a little bit about what your job was. What were you intended to do when you got there? And then what did you end up, in fact, doing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 30.895986695277294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was then then after that there was a point source for water and a small latrine near there as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was had fancy digs,"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fancy digs, comparatively speaking. But I think compared to many of my other volunteers, you know, some sort of I got, you know, living, living, hard living compared to I think what I heard the other volunteers had, you know, I mean, remember, no electricity, no running water. And so those were two handicaps, if you like. But compared to I think there's other volunteers who had those sorts of amenities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let's talk a little bit about what your job was. What were you intended to do when you got there? And then what did you end up, in fact, doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was paired with the local forestry officer of Toucountouna superfecture, and I, to be honest, quite honest, I. We didn't connect, we didn't click. He was drunk 90 percent of the time and seemed to not be doing that much. So the other thing that happened was that while the other the other thing that I was charged with doing was to try to do environmental education in the classes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In high school and secondary?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.730661020084277, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From the U.S. embassy. It was an embassy small grant and a another local Dutch NGO whose name escapes me now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doesn’t matter. Yeah, that's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was awesome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps was fine with your switching off from environmental education."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They I mean, yes, absolutely. I mean, they you know, you do check in with them not often, mind you, but, you know, in the few times that you check in with your supervisor or in my case was the Associate Peace Corps director APCD for environmental action. You know, you, you report to them what, what you've been up to. And I think it was quite clear that I wasn't as if I was sitting on my desk the whole time. I was I was quite active. I was one of the more active volunteers. So they were quite happy with what I'd done. And in fact, so much so that the ambassador came up to inaugurate and this was after my service. But the ambassador came up after the building had been constructed. The ambassador came up to cut the ribbon, as it were, to open up the small facility for Furminger Dry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how was the building built, where you involved in building it or who did the building?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00145:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 29.700734466760306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was awesome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps was fine with your switching off from environmental education."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They I mean, yes, absolutely. I mean, they you know, you do check in with them not often, mind you, but, you know, in the few times that you check in with your supervisor or in my case was the Associate Peace Corps director APCD for environmental action. You know, you, you report to them what, what you've been up to. And I think it was quite clear that I wasn't as if I was sitting on my desk the whole time. I was I was quite active. I was one of the more active volunteers. So they were quite happy with what I'd done. And in fact, so much so that the ambassador came up to inaugurate and this was after my service. But the ambassador came up after the building had been constructed. The ambassador came up to cut the ribbon, as it were, to open up the small facility for Furminger Dry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how was the building built, where you involved in building it or who did the building?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, in fact. Well, I was. The local, local masons were the ones who, who did the building. I was not involved in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did what was your role? What you got the funding which clearly helped, but what did you do to help the people?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00892:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 88.43565008857175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You have to be open-minded. You have to get information. You have to understand processes, whether it’s regarding climate or pollution or extraterrestrial resources, whatever subject might be important to society. It’s necessary to have an understanding as to what are the issues, what are the facts, to try to make intelligent predictions.\\n\\n If you don’t fund research, you won’t know enough to even know what’s happening today, much less be able to predict what will happen in 50 years from now. The difficulty is you may discover that you forced society into a state where it’s too late to make corrective changes or it’s too late to do the right thing. You have to have foresight. Just ignoring a subject doesn’t provide you the opportunity for accurate foresight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that still in place, that two percent?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that Mike [Michael D.] Griffin that you were speaking of, the Administrator?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mike Griffin is the one to whom that quote it attributed. I hope it’s a misquote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the Administrators had different perspectives. That’s one of the things with NASA, they all bring something different."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00892:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 93.81738898730194, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that Mike [Michael D.] Griffin that you were speaking of, the Administrator?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mike Griffin is the one to whom that quote it attributed. I hope it’s a misquote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the Administrators had different perspectives. That’s one of the things with NASA, they all bring something different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was very confusing. The SMD [Science Mission Directorate], what’s now called SMD, had formed this beautiful system whereby we had distributed EPO activities around the nation, assisted by centralized coordinating groups that made them more effective. NASA dismantled all that about 10 years ago. But they said, “We can’t do education and public outreach, but you have to do communications and public engagement.” I thought to myself, “Okay, well some of the things we do now we cannot do in the future,” like educator workshops that were so effective. We had to change our approach, but we still have made significant efforts to reach the public and students.\\n\\n For example, we had quickly learned that doing missionary activities, as I called it, to schoolrooms, were very effective with the 50 students or 25 students you talk to. But that’s a small group for the amount of time you spend. We discovered it was far more important to find interested teachers, bring them to Goddard, or go to where they are, and have a one-week summer session. They would get credit for professional development, and we would spend a whole week telling them about lunar science, space science, whatever. Then they could go, and they would understand the material better so they could use it in their classroom.\\n\\n We had discovered that some material we were developing for educators they were reluctant to use because they didn’t think they were qualified to answer questions from students. So by raising their level of understanding, giving them a deeper knowledge, they could go to the classroom, answer questions, work with other interested teachers. By doing that, we could multiply the effectiveness of our programs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like you mentioned, sometimes scientists have trouble communicating. Did you have trouble finding people to lead those workshops? Or enough people came from an academic background that that was something they did well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00892:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 54, "return_to_go": 124.57803701961855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have many skilled people who work in education and public outreach now. They started their career in science. Most of them got through the Master’s degree, and then for various reasons they didn’t go on to a Ph.D. They still want to do science, and they’re very effective at working with students and the public and educators.\\n\\n These are the people who when NASA decided not to fund these programs, they’re the ones who suffered the most. The educator workshops—it was decided by Headquarters that that does not belong in SMD, it belongs in the Office of Education. Then the Office of Education now may not have continuous existence at NASA Headquarters. There’s a lot of confusion. But at the local level—at the mission level, at the scientist level—I still encourage people. The two percent requirement is no longer a requirement. At one point they took away funding from missions that had it as an identified budget, and they consolidated it, and then it disappeared. In any case, it’s an important activity. I tell people, “Find a way to fund it, and do it.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve heard that from a couple other people that have mentioned that education is still going to go on. It’s just not going to be, like you said, under that title. It’s not going to be there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We have to communicate to the public. They said, “Engage the public, communicate, but don’t educate them.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little hard to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Anyway, I think it’s very important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were, as you said, the Lab Chief for Extraterrestrial Physics for about 10 years. Then you moved to Program Director for the Robotic Lunar Exploration Program."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00892:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 46.07163954000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge] had some beautiful computers they used, but they were few and far between."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And large."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And large. They weren’t distributed. They were all mainframe, so you’d have to wait your turn in line to get to use them for a little bit of time. Analyzing 750 terabytes of data would have been just incredible.\\n\\n My rocket experiment, I got what we say right now a few kilobytes of data. It took me six months to sift through that to make sure that I had made a valid measurement because of problems with the payload and the rocket and the aurora not cooperating. So times have changed. I tell people that they’re lucky because the tools are better, but you still have to be clever. The one tool that people haven’t invented is a machine that’s more clever than a human."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even though they try, don’t they."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They claim they have. But most of them aren’t as clever as they claim they are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There have been a lot of things—like you said, the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, the amount of work that that was able to do. There’s a lot of things in the news also with Cassini because of the Grand Finale and everything that’s happening there. Also a few weeks ago Jim [James L.] Green and NASA Headquarters announced the findings from Saturn’s moon Enceladus.\\n\\n So there’s a lot of very exciting things going on right now, with these announcements and some of the things that are coming back and the information hopefully that’s going to come from that last Grand Finale with Cassini. Talk about some of the information that’s coming out, and maybe hopefully where you see that leading to."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 37.54159436114489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s do the models, first. The last one I got into was for going to the Moon, of course. This is the 9 x 10 test section, 9 feet across and 7 feet up, see [demonstrates]? For tall people, you had to be careful walking. To get back and forth—here’s that slab I told you that supports the model. To go to the front, you had to duck under this. You had a bad back after you worked there a while.\\n\\n This is a picture, about ’61, and this is the Apollo capsule. One of the things they worried about for launch is if something happens to the booster down below, they want to be able to get the astronauts quickly off, and so they put this ejection system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Launch Escape System?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you’ve heard about it? Fortunately, they never had to use it. They were looking at different configurations that would do the job. This one had put different extensions on. Again, we were measuring the forces at the various angles, and measuring forces in pitching moments, yaw and so forth.\\n\\n Then I also ran it with the model of the Apollo Command Module in a different position, the position that it would go through in entry and landing. I think I ran this just at the lower Mach number, but all three tunnels, I went with the Command Module itself and measured entry dynamics at entry speeds. All the way from 0.7 [Mach] in the 11-foot, and moved it over to the 9 x 7 at 1.5 to 2.5 Mach, and then the one that never runs again, the 3.5 foot, at 2.5 to 3.5 Mach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long would it take when you were moving it around, to set it up, run the tests, get the numbers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A couple days. There were things that were common between test sections so that made it somewhat better, but still you had to hook up and test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To get the results, how long would that take?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 41.712882623494316, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you’ve heard about it? Fortunately, they never had to use it. They were looking at different configurations that would do the job. This one had put different extensions on. Again, we were measuring the forces at the various angles, and measuring forces in pitching moments, yaw and so forth.\\n\\n Then I also ran it with the model of the Apollo Command Module in a different position, the position that it would go through in entry and landing. I think I ran this just at the lower Mach number, but all three tunnels, I went with the Command Module itself and measured entry dynamics at entry speeds. All the way from 0.7 [Mach] in the 11-foot, and moved it over to the 9 x 7 at 1.5 to 2.5 Mach, and then the one that never runs again, the 3.5 foot, at 2.5 to 3.5 Mach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long would it take when you were moving it around, to set it up, run the tests, get the numbers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A couple days. There were things that were common between test sections so that made it somewhat better, but still you had to hook up and test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To get the results, how long would that take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Results would come out fast because that was a modern tunnel at that time, and they were hooked directly into the computer building over here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you were already moving in that direction?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 46.34764735943813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A couple days. There were things that were common between test sections so that made it somewhat better, but still you had to hook up and test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To get the results, how long would that take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Results would come out fast because that was a modern tunnel at that time, and they were hooked directly into the computer building over here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you were already moving in that direction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and we would get them—I don’t know if it was at this time period—we were online with the computer, and we got the data back right on the controls section and plot it out. Just about the way they do it now, easier and faster. That was very exciting, to be a part of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the usage of the electricity. Did most of these tests run at night, or were they after-hours?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 47.05294151048681, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Results would come out fast because that was a modern tunnel at that time, and they were hooked directly into the computer building over here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you were already moving in that direction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and we would get them—I don’t know if it was at this time period—we were online with the computer, and we got the data back right on the controls section and plot it out. Just about the way they do it now, easier and faster. That was very exciting, to be a part of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the usage of the electricity. Did most of these tests run at night, or were they after-hours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ones that you wanted to run at higher speed and higher pressures, yes, they did, but they didn’t worry so much about it in those days. It was wartime, still, in ’55. This is after Korea, but still, we were in the Cold War. There’s the Unitary [demonstrates]. Are you familiar with that facility?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve heard of it and seen pictures of it. That’s about as familiar as I am."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 48.94771278942979, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and we would get them—I don’t know if it was at this time period—we were online with the computer, and we got the data back right on the controls section and plot it out. Just about the way they do it now, easier and faster. That was very exciting, to be a part of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the usage of the electricity. Did most of these tests run at night, or were they after-hours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ones that you wanted to run at higher speed and higher pressures, yes, they did, but they didn’t worry so much about it in those days. It was wartime, still, in ’55. This is after Korea, but still, we were in the Cold War. There’s the Unitary [demonstrates]. Are you familiar with that facility?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ve heard of it and seen pictures of it. That’s about as familiar as I am."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is unique. It has one motor system. The motor section is in here [demonstrates], and it can either drive the compressor on this side or the compressor on the other. Since I left, they boxed it in for noise purposes. The subsonic one is over here—the lower Mach number, I should say—and then the higher Mach numbers were done in two ways. This is the 9 foot section and the flow goes—let’s see, you’ve got to get it the right way. Yes, it goes out this way, comes around, and this is continuous flow. If they’re using this section, then they had turning vanes in here. Big cans turn with vanes in them to direct the flow around this circuit instead of that circuit. Pretty complex. Amazing facility, and very, very good data came out of that for many years.\\n\\n What’s next? I guess that’s probably enough for that period of my 38 years here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just to go back, when you first started at NACA, did you have any knowledge of what the NACA was doing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 53.32033619805356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve flown across the country a few times. One time, it was fun to go with another Seagull owner and we went all the way over to Cape Canaveral [Florida], and got to see a launch of Gemini. I think it was the Gemini V mission in ’65. I forget the astronauts that were on board, but boy, did that thing go out. It had a very high thrust away, and it just, poof! No smoke because it was hypergolic fuel that just ignited on contact. That was exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s quite an experience, getting to see that launch.\\n\\n Had you had any experience with wind tunnels before you came here, or was this all new when you got here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a small wind tunnel at the University of Minnesota, a little over subsonic. It was interesting, but I never ran anything there. I guess some of the graduate students probably did some of their thesis using that tunnel. They had an adjunct facility south of the Twin Cities where they had the high pressure air devices. They actually got some pretty high speed there, and I wanted to work there. Somehow I didn’t get accepted, but there were more sophisticated facilities there, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned some of those programs, and of course some of them were classified. Do you remember the process to get clearance to work on those projects?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I forgot who does that anymore, but the people come around and check you out, and they go around to people whose names you give to them, or people they think might have known you, and see how bad you were in the past. I guess I passed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I guess you did, if you got to work on this. Were there any other projects during those early years that you can recall that you worked on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 59.24481799783729, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a small wind tunnel at the University of Minnesota, a little over subsonic. It was interesting, but I never ran anything there. I guess some of the graduate students probably did some of their thesis using that tunnel. They had an adjunct facility south of the Twin Cities where they had the high pressure air devices. They actually got some pretty high speed there, and I wanted to work there. Somehow I didn’t get accepted, but there were more sophisticated facilities there, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned some of those programs, and of course some of them were classified. Do you remember the process to get clearance to work on those projects?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I forgot who does that anymore, but the people come around and check you out, and they go around to people whose names you give to them, or people they think might have known you, and see how bad you were in the past. I guess I passed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I guess you did, if you got to work on this. Were there any other projects during those early years that you can recall that you worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean still in the wind tunnel area?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, in NACA, those first couple of years when you were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 65.82757555315254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I forgot who does that anymore, but the people come around and check you out, and they go around to people whose names you give to them, or people they think might have known you, and see how bad you were in the past. I guess I passed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I guess you did, if you got to work on this. Were there any other projects during those early years that you can recall that you worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean still in the wind tunnel area?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, in NACA, those first couple of years when you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was pretty much just all in the wind tunnel there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the transition, when it transitioned from NACA to NASA. In ’57, of course Sputnik [Russian satellite], and then the transition a year later? Can you talk about that time period and maybe what the atmosphere was here at Ames and what people were saying?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 26, "return_to_go": 73.14175061461393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean still in the wind tunnel area?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, in NACA, those first couple of years when you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was pretty much just all in the wind tunnel there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the transition, when it transitioned from NACA to NASA. In ’57, of course Sputnik [Russian satellite], and then the transition a year later? Can you talk about that time period and maybe what the atmosphere was here at Ames and what people were saying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was good that Ames was a high-speed research center because that’s what it was all about. Measuring how you recover capsules, and of course, during the Cold War, a lot of the work to design ballistic missile systems. The heads would have to go into the atmosphere and not blow up before they got to the target. Who’s our famous guy who used to be our Director?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Harvey [Julius] Allen?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 61.535971063273784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "George Low, thank you. He gave the go ahead, and now North was looking over this whole thing, and was the interface between Low and us. It was mechanized—not for Apollo 11, though. The first one it was put on was Apollo 12, which is rather ironic because what happened on Apollo 12?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The lightning strike."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What went bad? The stuff up above. Anything electronic was fine; the analog system down below, von Braun’s system, just kept running. Then they got into orbit and they weren’t sure if they were going to finish the mission, but they were able to upload backup to the Command Module and get everything running again, continue with it. It was never used, but it was there for the rest of the flights, as far as I know. It was one of the more exciting programs I got involved in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was interesting, the Centers were working together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is Frank [F.] Borman [II], by the way [demonstrates], you recognize him. I think that’s at your Center, not ours. Any more on that one?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just mentioning that the Centers were working together on that. Was that the first time you’d done that across Centers, on any of the projects you’d worked on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 68.37330118141531, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What went bad? The stuff up above. Anything electronic was fine; the analog system down below, von Braun’s system, just kept running. Then they got into orbit and they weren’t sure if they were going to finish the mission, but they were able to upload backup to the Command Module and get everything running again, continue with it. It was never used, but it was there for the rest of the flights, as far as I know. It was one of the more exciting programs I got involved in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was interesting, the Centers were working together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is Frank [F.] Borman [II], by the way [demonstrates], you recognize him. I think that’s at your Center, not ours. Any more on that one?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just mentioning that the Centers were working together on that. Was that the first time you’d done that across Centers, on any of the projects you’d worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The things that I worked on, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that very common, to do that, to share information?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 70.41477909046145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is Frank [F.] Borman [II], by the way [demonstrates], you recognize him. I think that’s at your Center, not ours. Any more on that one?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just mentioning that the Centers were working together on that. Was that the first time you’d done that across Centers, on any of the projects you’d worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The things that I worked on, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that very common, to do that, to share information?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When needed, yes, especially if the facilities were the best ones to use, yes. Did that in Flight Research, too, so yes. That’s the way it should work. Our biggest competition was with [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia], and probably still is. Those don’t always go as smoothly as you’d like. Sometimes they have to be forced, “You will do it.” That was another exciting time.\\n\\n What happened after that? What else did I get into in Guidance & Control?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve got on your list “atmospheric turbulence modeling.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 22, "return_to_go": 73.79419898940161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The things that I worked on, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that very common, to do that, to share information?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When needed, yes, especially if the facilities were the best ones to use, yes. Did that in Flight Research, too, so yes. That’s the way it should work. Our biggest competition was with [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton, Virginia], and probably still is. Those don’t always go as smoothly as you’d like. Sometimes they have to be forced, “You will do it.” That was another exciting time.\\n\\n What happened after that? What else did I get into in Guidance & Control?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve got on your list “atmospheric turbulence modeling.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so later on into Apollo, in actual flights we weren’t needed, so we went back into aeronautics issues and problems. One of the things that I got into was, as it says, remodeling the turbulence of the atmosphere as well as we could for pilot simulations. There’s some feeling that maybe it got a little more jerky than we expected, so we did some tests on that. One of the tests, I worked with the University of Washington [Seattle]. They had some good ideas, and they had some models they came up with.\\n\\n There was a simulator that was on the side of the 40 x 80 Wind Tunnel over there on the south side, where now we have the vanes. Before the vanes were put in, and the new section was built, didn’t have that stuff there. We had a vertical motion simulator out there, I don’t know if you’ve seen any pictures of that. Dan [Daniel C.] Dugan was one of my subjects when we were flying it. We’d program it to move up and down and got some data on it, and then we also did tests in the big simulator down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Vertical Motion Simulator?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.685783780170004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a party guy, I guess. I used to organize parties for the Unitary people. One of the big, fancy parties was over at—the bottom of the [San Francisco] Bay here, a restaurant down there. What’s the name of the little city down at the end of the Bay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean San Jose?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Near San Jose, but there’s a small town over there. There was a restaurant run by this couple. I don’t know if it’s still going or not, but people [would ask], “Why do you want to go there?” A good price and good Italian food, so they had a good time. We organized some other things too, of course. I know, reading Jack Boyd’s, he talked about the family things, including Santa Claus coming in on the helicopter and things like that. I guess we were doing it at that time too, so yes, that was an interesting way to meet people, and also other groups within the Center, so that was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Niles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Niles is across the Bay. Alviso. Alviso, yes. It’s the pride of the South Bay. There’s a saying, but I won’t say it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, we’ll have to look for that one. Also during that time in the transition from NACA to NASA, was there a change in the way the work was assigned? I know a lot of the work was research-driven because individuals had a chance to pick research and do different things that they wanted to do research on. Once NASA was formed, and of course we were going to the Moon and all of that was happening, it was more of a goal-oriented research. Do you remember any sort of change?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.095315311300004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Near San Jose, but there’s a small town over there. There was a restaurant run by this couple. I don’t know if it’s still going or not, but people [would ask], “Why do you want to go there?” A good price and good Italian food, so they had a good time. We organized some other things too, of course. I know, reading Jack Boyd’s, he talked about the family things, including Santa Claus coming in on the helicopter and things like that. I guess we were doing it at that time too, so yes, that was an interesting way to meet people, and also other groups within the Center, so that was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Niles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Niles is across the Bay. Alviso. Alviso, yes. It’s the pride of the South Bay. There’s a saying, but I won’t say it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, we’ll have to look for that one. Also during that time in the transition from NACA to NASA, was there a change in the way the work was assigned? I know a lot of the work was research-driven because individuals had a chance to pick research and do different things that they wanted to do research on. Once NASA was formed, and of course we were going to the Moon and all of that was happening, it was more of a goal-oriented research. Do you remember any sort of change?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we were already on that path beforehand. There was more money, and more opportunities to contribute, so that was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it picked up more than anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.661461457000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Niles is across the Bay. Alviso. Alviso, yes. It’s the pride of the South Bay. There’s a saying, but I won’t say it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, we’ll have to look for that one. Also during that time in the transition from NACA to NASA, was there a change in the way the work was assigned? I know a lot of the work was research-driven because individuals had a chance to pick research and do different things that they wanted to do research on. Once NASA was formed, and of course we were going to the Moon and all of that was happening, it was more of a goal-oriented research. Do you remember any sort of change?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we were already on that path beforehand. There was more money, and more opportunities to contribute, so that was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it picked up more than anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the emphasis, of course, was space rather than aeronautics. The things had to come back down through the air, so aeronautics was still needed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was still important. What do you think would be your most significant contribution during your time here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.290512730000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we were already on that path beforehand. There was more money, and more opportunities to contribute, so that was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it picked up more than anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the emphasis, of course, was space rather than aeronautics. The things had to come back down through the air, so aeronautics was still needed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was still important. What do you think would be your most significant contribution during your time here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the work on Saturn V [rocket] program, I’d have to say that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was the most challenging thing you worked on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.1005697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the emphasis, of course, was space rather than aeronautics. The things had to come back down through the air, so aeronautics was still needed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was still important. What do you think would be your most significant contribution during your time here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the work on Saturn V [rocket] program, I’d have to say that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was the most challenging thing you worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Saturn V."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still the Saturn V?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.000633, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the work on Saturn V [rocket] program, I’d have to say that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think was the most challenging thing you worked on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Saturn V."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still the Saturn V?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t know how many years we worked on that—at least two, three?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was rewarding, too. I was going to ask Rebecca if she has any questions.\n\nI just have one. When you came here in 1955, do you remember what your expectations were, and do you feel like they were met, working here at the Center?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.667370000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Saturn V."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still the Saturn V?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t know how many years we worked on that—at least two, three?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was rewarding, too. I was going to ask Rebecca if she has any questions.\n\nI just have one. When you came here in 1955, do you remember what your expectations were, and do you feel like they were met, working here at the Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think George Edwards, my interviewer, gave me a pretty good idea, but no, it’s never quite what you expect. He described—it wasn’t Silicon Valley yet—the Valley of Heart’s Delight, and how nice it was to live here. I was looking forward to that, and that turned out to be very true. I had access to information about the facility. Not as much as you have now, with zip-zip-zip on your computer, but yes.\\n\\n Certainly I didn’t expect what a facility that the Unitary Wind Tunnel Plan was. I think people that build submarines made that tunnel because it’s built like you have to make for a submarine, except the pressures hold on the inside, and it’s the pressure coming from the outside, from the water. You’re purposefully pressurizing so you get a higher Reynolds number, more accurate, more added data that can be matched to real flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You joined such a prestigious organization when you got here. Ames had already been able to do great research. Do you feel like, as a new person, the way that the organization was set up here, your ideas and your recommendations, your discoveries, were treasured and honored as much as anyone else? Do you feel like even if you were a new person, you were contributing just as much as others?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.5193, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t know how many years we worked on that—at least two, three?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was rewarding, too. I was going to ask Rebecca if she has any questions.\n\nI just have one. When you came here in 1955, do you remember what your expectations were, and do you feel like they were met, working here at the Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think George Edwards, my interviewer, gave me a pretty good idea, but no, it’s never quite what you expect. He described—it wasn’t Silicon Valley yet—the Valley of Heart’s Delight, and how nice it was to live here. I was looking forward to that, and that turned out to be very true. I had access to information about the facility. Not as much as you have now, with zip-zip-zip on your computer, but yes.\\n\\n Certainly I didn’t expect what a facility that the Unitary Wind Tunnel Plan was. I think people that build submarines made that tunnel because it’s built like you have to make for a submarine, except the pressures hold on the inside, and it’s the pressure coming from the outside, from the water. You’re purposefully pressurizing so you get a higher Reynolds number, more accurate, more added data that can be matched to real flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You joined such a prestigious organization when you got here. Ames had already been able to do great research. Do you feel like, as a new person, the way that the organization was set up here, your ideas and your recommendations, your discoveries, were treasured and honored as much as anyone else? Do you feel like even if you were a new person, you were contributing just as much as others?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a little paragraph in Jack Boyd’s [interview] that I identify with, “All these people are so much smarter than me.” Remember that? Yes, I felt that, and boy, I felt I was very lucky to be here, and I enjoyed the challenges that they provided. I just admired what good people they had here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find it very nurturing, that they were helping you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00940:98", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.53, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a little paragraph in Jack Boyd’s [interview] that I identify with, “All these people are so much smarter than me.” Remember that? Yes, I felt that, and boy, I felt I was very lucky to be here, and I enjoyed the challenges that they provided. I just admired what good people they had here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find it very nurturing, that they were helping you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. You had to ask. You didn’t want to screw up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you.\n\nGlenn, do you have anything?\n\nJust a few about the Unitary, again the NACA. Some of the people that would have been your managers, I’m guessing Smith [J.] DeFrance, Ralph [F.] Huntsberger, Jack [John W.] Parsons. Who were the people that were managing you, and how often did you interact with them and what did you learn from them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody reported to our branch chief, but there were mentors within the group. Usually, a junior engineer was put with the more senior person. In my case, that was Vernon Gnos that did that fighter testing. Then, when I was doing other things, had a fellow named Dick [Richard] Madison we worked with on turbulence programs. I forget who else I worked with, but then as I got more senior, I was pretty much on my own, except for reporting to the assistant branch chief. It was pretty much within the branch.\\n\\n I always admired DeFrance. I was just reading more today about his background, and he was an amazing guy. What he did to help build this thing, build the big facilities and then manage very successfully, and guide the younger people—I think very admirable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Unitary was very specifically designed to help the military services and commercial aircraft manufacture, so a lot of what you would have been doing is interacting with the aircraft firms that were coming in to get their aircraft tested. What was that like in the NACA days, as opposed to the NASA days, for example? Really close interaction with the military services? Did you see a lot of them around? Were they working hand-in-hand with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00613:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 52.988596015796105, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve spent more than 20 years involved with aspects of the International Space Station."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s hard to believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Especially in the field of medical operations and research. If you’d start today by sharing with us what you believe to be some of the most significant challenges during these years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think some of the most significant challenges of course were working with our international partners. In particular working with our former Cold War adversaries, our Russian friends. I started in the Shuttle-Mir Program as we were working our joint missions flying cosmonauts on the Space Shuttle, flying astronauts on the Soyuz once at least, and then up to the Mir Station for long duration flights. We were also at the same time giving birth to the notion of an International Space Station in place of Space Station Freedom.\\n\\n Those of us that were heavily involved in the Shuttle-Mir Program realized two things. How wonderful it would be, because we found that we could work with our Russian counterparts quite well, and how difficult it would be, because they do things very differently than we do. I think if anybody had asked us what a good model for making a Space Station would be, the answer would not have been to choose a major partner who speaks another language, who uses metric system rather than English system, who has a totally different engineering philosophy, safety culture, methods of operation, methods of manning. All of that was different.\\n\\n We realized just how different by working Shuttle-Mir. Putting that together into a Space Station Program we knew was going to be very difficult. The flip side of that is that the Shuttle-Mir Program set us up to do that quite brilliantly. Without the Shuttle-Mir Program I can’t imagine starting from scratch and going into such a large program as the International Space Station."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You found lots of differences, but what were the commonalities that moved you forward?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00613:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing. Recently I was asked to talk to some students from the Bauman Institute in Moscow [Bauman Moscow State Technical University]. This is an aviation/aerospace engineering institute. It’s the top tier in Russia. These are really smart kids. They were seniors and juniors in college, and I was asked to speak to them about my experience working Shuttle-Mir and working collaboratively with the International Space Station.\\n\\n It occurred to me that we’ve been working collaboratively with our Russian counterparts longer than these kids have been alive. Everything we did to build our coalitions after the Cold War and after the Soviet Union collapsed and after our own space program was drifting a bit—everything we did was history to them. They didn’t really live it like we did. The fact that they can just read in a book that we were old Cold War adversaries and that we were more competitive in space, but now accept the new norm of collaboration—we don’t know any other way to work, as long as these kids have been alive, I think is wonderful. I think it’s one of the best testaments to our International Space Program ever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s a nice history for them to reflect back on. It’s good common ground there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. Again it’s the norm of everyone their age right now. That’s really I think the best legacy we’ve built so far. They look so young too. They were younger than four out of five of my kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was thinking about your kids because basically your kids have always had a Station."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they literally have grown up with this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like your other home for them."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00613:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is. Again it’s the norm of everyone their age right now. That’s really I think the best legacy we’ve built so far. They look so young too. They were younger than four out of five of my kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was thinking about your kids because basically your kids have always had a Station."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they literally have grown up with this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s like your other home for them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I spent five years Russia. They also see it as the enemy in a way. It’s like a military deploy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you for this morning and sharing the thoughts. We appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00243:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 26.316652904276925, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we really were. You really could do that. In fact, we got to where you could run each EVA day pretty much end to end, as it would really work, with quite high fidelity. Of course, that gives you a lot of confidence, going into the flight, that you really have thought through the things you need to do, to do the tasks. So you can’t beat it.\\n\\n Most of the arm training I had done prior to the deployment mission had been in simulators where the arm and the Hubble were computer images. So this is really the first opportunity to do something with a real Hubble mockup and a real EVA crewmember and a real arm. We had the MDF [Manipulator Development Facility] for training for the Hubble deploy with the balloon, but I didn’t think that training was very realistic because of the dynamics of the balloon and the way it moved around in Building 9. But this was very realistic, and we were able to do each EVA day just pretty much exactly as we did it in flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the launch, was this the one that went off without any delay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, in fact, we launched two days early, for whatever reason. I don’t actually now remember. I think when we were assigned, our original launch date was February 13th, and they ended up moving it up to February 11th, and we actually launched on February the 11th. It was the most amazing thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No delays."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No delays, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you launched, and I think it was Day Three when you actually prepared to capture the Hubble, can you describe that for us and walk us through that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00243:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.754430104974638, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long was it after you came back before you got the assignment for STS-93?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seems like it was about a year. I don’t remember exactly, but, yes, it seems like it was about a year. Maybe not quite a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember why you got this assignment, or why you were chosen for this flight? Or was it because it was another observatory mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that was part of it. I think they also were looking for an experienced person for that mission. The pilot was a rookie. One of the other MS’s [Mission Specialist] was a rookie. On Shuttle, Michel [Tognini] had flown on Mir previously. I think [Catherine G.] Cady [Coleman] had flown once, and this was Eileen’s [M. Collins] first command, so it was a relatively junior crew. I think they were looking for somebody experienced to add to the mix of relatively less experienced people.\\n\\n Truthfully, I told them “no” when they asked me to do it, merely because I thought I really hadn’t been back in my real job that long yet, and I didn’t think that it was appropriate for me to step aside and fly again that soon. But they pestered me, and so I did it, finally. But I honestly told them that I didn’t think that was the right thing to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What changed your mind?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00243:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.171589005527377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seems like it was about a year. I don’t remember exactly, but, yes, it seems like it was about a year. Maybe not quite a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember why you got this assignment, or why you were chosen for this flight? Or was it because it was another observatory mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that was part of it. I think they also were looking for an experienced person for that mission. The pilot was a rookie. One of the other MS’s [Mission Specialist] was a rookie. On Shuttle, Michel [Tognini] had flown on Mir previously. I think [Catherine G.] Cady [Coleman] had flown once, and this was Eileen’s [M. Collins] first command, so it was a relatively junior crew. I think they were looking for somebody experienced to add to the mix of relatively less experienced people.\\n\\n Truthfully, I told them “no” when they asked me to do it, merely because I thought I really hadn’t been back in my real job that long yet, and I didn’t think that it was appropriate for me to step aside and fly again that soon. But they pestered me, and so I did it, finally. But I honestly told them that I didn’t think that was the right thing to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What changed your mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My boss told me to do it: [Laughs] He thought it was the right thing to do. So I said, “Yes, sir.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do what your boss says. Well, I imagine there was some interest in this flight, mainly because of Eileen Collins, the first time for a female commander."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00243:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.85732111725264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that was part of it. I think they also were looking for an experienced person for that mission. The pilot was a rookie. One of the other MS’s [Mission Specialist] was a rookie. On Shuttle, Michel [Tognini] had flown on Mir previously. I think [Catherine G.] Cady [Coleman] had flown once, and this was Eileen’s [M. Collins] first command, so it was a relatively junior crew. I think they were looking for somebody experienced to add to the mix of relatively less experienced people.\\n\\n Truthfully, I told them “no” when they asked me to do it, merely because I thought I really hadn’t been back in my real job that long yet, and I didn’t think that it was appropriate for me to step aside and fly again that soon. But they pestered me, and so I did it, finally. But I honestly told them that I didn’t think that was the right thing to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What changed your mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My boss told me to do it: [Laughs] He thought it was the right thing to do. So I said, “Yes, sir.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do what your boss says. Well, I imagine there was some interest in this flight, mainly because of Eileen Collins, the first time for a female commander."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that affect the training at all, or do you have any memories of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00243:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 29.841467908058487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My boss told me to do it: [Laughs] He thought it was the right thing to do. So I said, “Yes, sir.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do what your boss says. Well, I imagine there was some interest in this flight, mainly because of Eileen Collins, the first time for a female commander."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that affect the training at all, or do you have any memories of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it certainly had the potential to affect the training some. She was very good about being very focused on training and protecting the crew as best she could from the publicity associated with her role as the first female commander. She was actually, on that basis, certainly a very good choice to be the first female commander. She was certainly dedicated to not letting that interfere with—and the system was pretty good about protecting us as best it could. Again, we understood it was important, and we also understand that we had a certain obligation to meet some of the demands of the attendant publicity associated with her being the commander, but I think we were also able to kind of keep it in perspective, and I thought she handled it very well.\\n\\n It helped, also, probably, that the flight ended up with some delay. So the time we had to train was longer than we would have had, had we launched on the original schedule, and that was kind of good, because it allowed us to do both more training and more of the PR [public relations] stuff before the launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you describe some of the training that you did for this flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00243:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.599034891334806, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, nothing that is really major. We did have the treadmill that is actually on the Station as a demonstration. That was kind of fun, because several of us on the crew like to run. So to get to try out the treadmill was interesting.\\n\\n The thing I remember about it, though, is that the way they had it stored, they had it stored below the mid-deck floor in a stowage volume that’s kind of back in under the forward lockers. And I was absolutely convinced that we would never, ever be able to get it back in there. And [Jeffrey S.] Jeff Ashby did it. I don’t know how, but he did it. I remember even telling the ground, “Hey, when we disassemble it, there is no way we’re going to be able to get it stowed back in here.” And he did. Somehow he managed to get it in there. So that was kind of interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After this flight, you resumed your duties as the Deputy Director, and then were promoted to Director in October of 2001. Is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. [James D.] Jim Wetherbee got to go fly again, and so Mr. [Roy S.] Estess asked me if I’d be Director."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything about that position that you’d like to share?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seemed like it was about the same job I’d been doing. Actually, when I was Deputy, I don’t remember exactly, it may’ve been [19]’98 when Dave left and Jim came in and took over. He flew once or twice, anyway, while he and I were working together, so I felt I had a lot of experience being the Director. So it really wasn’t that big a thing to have the title officially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the duties or responsibilities that you had during that position?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00243:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.738355268000007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have anything to do with any of the flight crews that were chosen for those missions or that residence?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I certainly consulted in some of the selections. I was also part of the Phase I Program Mission Management Team, so as there were technical issues, the Director or I would be involved in trying to resolve them.\\n\\n I remember when [Norman E.] Norm [Thagard] was selected to be the first Shuttle-Mir crewmember. I had argued that I thought that would be a good choice, first of all, because he was a doctor, but secondly, because, frankly, he really wanted to do it, and I felt that one of the most important qualities of someone in a position like that is that they really want to go do it. He really wanted to go do that. He really wanted to become part of their program, not just be an astronaut flying with the Russians, but he wanted to go over and be cosmonaut-trained and be part of their program. I thought that was a good trait. So I remember arguing for his selection, and was glad that that worked out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any dealings with the other astronauts that came here and did training, some of the Russian astronauts?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some, but actually, not a lot. We didn’t have anything to do with selecting them. Typically they were selected by either Energia or GCTC [Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center]. We would track their progress, but in that job you’re not directly involved in the actual training activities. I got to know some of them on an individual cosmonaut-to-astronaut level. We’re all very similar, kind of similar types of backgrounds and similar types of interests and similar kinds of challenges and meeting the training objectives and getting the mission done and all that.\\n\\n I suppose the first time I saw that, it was kind of an interesting surprise to realize that, hey, fundamentally cosmonauts and astronauts are kind of the same people. Maybe that shouldn’t be surprising."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve recently moved into another position, also, Associate Director of AstroMaterials Research and Exploration Science."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.507579751594783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First, when I got out of high school, I got an offer to work there as an under-aircraft model maker, but that was in 1941. Anyway, I didn’t take that job. In [19]’56, I was working at Bell Labs [Laboratories], and I thought it was politically best to move. I was offered, at Bell Labs, to go to the New Jersey location and work part-time towards a master’s degree, but I knew there were political problems. They never hired anybody that way. So I got several other offers.\\n\\n And the day of my leaving, at dinner I got the phone call. I was thinking I was going to go to New Jersey to Bell Labs and start graduate work. It was the guy that was going to hire me there, and he was very defensive. Anyway, he was turning me off.\\n\\n So I was interested at National Advisory [Committee for Aeronautics], NACA, and so I took that offer at NACA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your duties going to be at NACA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, I [worked on] the anti-ICBM [Intercontinental Ballistic Missile] study, sort of the feasibility, not as to accuracy, but it’s the feasibility from time and energy to intercept an ICBM.\\n\\n Shortly after that, the Space Task Group [STG] came about, and this was all at the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division, which is where the nucleus started, and I chose to go there, and I went to work in guidance and control there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you make the transition to the Space Task Group? Did they approach you, or was this something you were interested in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were only maybe twenty people about that time, and people expressed an interest. Then [the Space Task Group] chose who they wanted to talk with, and I was one of those. I went to work for [Robert G.] Bob Chilton in guidance and control-type stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you know about the nation’s goal of sending an American in space at the time that you transferred over to the STG?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 26.119533057327537, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, I [worked on] the anti-ICBM [Intercontinental Ballistic Missile] study, sort of the feasibility, not as to accuracy, but it’s the feasibility from time and energy to intercept an ICBM.\\n\\n Shortly after that, the Space Task Group [STG] came about, and this was all at the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division, which is where the nucleus started, and I chose to go there, and I went to work in guidance and control there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you make the transition to the Space Task Group? Did they approach you, or was this something you were interested in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were only maybe twenty people about that time, and people expressed an interest. Then [the Space Task Group] chose who they wanted to talk with, and I was one of those. I went to work for [Robert G.] Bob Chilton in guidance and control-type stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you know about the nation’s goal of sending an American in space at the time that you transferred over to the STG?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As soon as the Russians put one up, they had all these lectures on space, and I felt it was more interesting to move on to the space project rather than to continue working at the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division. [The Space Task Group] moved across the campus to some very ancient buildings in a giant bullpen-type configuration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you share with us what it was like during those first few days of discussion?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 22.616707478182143, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As soon as the Russians put one up, they had all these lectures on space, and I felt it was more interesting to move on to the space project rather than to continue working at the Pilotless Aircraft Research Division. [The Space Task Group] moved across the campus to some very ancient buildings in a giant bullpen-type configuration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you share with us what it was like during those first few days of discussion?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a lot of enthusiasm, and the organization was rather loose, so everybody talked up and down to everyone. Since I knew everyone anyway, and I was also a model airplane enthusiast and [Maxime A.] Faget was also one, and we had flown together. So most of the people then knew everyone.\\n\\n Then they started to expand slightly. The Canadian group came down. When the Canadian aircraft thing folded [A. V. Roe Canada Ltd. (AVRO) Aircraft, Malton, Ontario, Canada], they brought down about twenty-five people. I presume you’ve interviewed about that part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the [CF-105] Arrow there, fighter aircraft, was cancelled, then they chose, supposedly, the most promising group, and it came down with James [A.] Chamberlin, and they did well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did the Flight Control Section start working on, and how did you develop your plan of what needed to be done for your part of the STG?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.81074997306437, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the [CF-105] Arrow there, fighter aircraft, was cancelled, then they chose, supposedly, the most promising group, and it came down with James [A.] Chamberlin, and they did well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did the Flight Control Section start working on, and how did you develop your plan of what needed to be done for your part of the STG?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They investigated a lot of wild ideas, and Faget always like to have a large solid rocket booster and so on. Then it began to focus down, and Faget’s group configured the Mercury capsule. I believe several of them, including [William E.] Bill Stoney, [Jr.], got patents on that shape, and so we converged on that configuration. Initially, it didn’t have any window, except a porthole on one side, and that was felt—you know the sardine passenger, that was felt [demeaning to the astronaut]. I think it was much better that they installed a window in the Mercury capsule, a very funny window. Then they had so many panes in the window for safety that there were optical problems, and the astronaut had to be trained to do navigation by the stars through the window.\\n\\n Then the guidance and control problem came up, and we had to do simulations of that where we had to orient to the Earth with a scanner which bisected the signal from the Earth to give you the vertical, and that took a bit of study. Then just the logistics of the Mercury Project and monitoring all of the contractual work where you would go out occasionally to McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation] and may be on duty for thirty-six hours for verifying every step for the testing of the Mercury capsule. I would generally go out with an astronaut or two, and there [were] a lot of funny stories there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… When you were working with Mr. Chilton, were you part of the Flight Dynamics Evaluation Team that actually came up with the specs for the Mercury capsule?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you share with us how that team worked and how you were able to come up with those specific requirements for McDonnell Aircraft?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.678611081182634, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They investigated a lot of wild ideas, and Faget always like to have a large solid rocket booster and so on. Then it began to focus down, and Faget’s group configured the Mercury capsule. I believe several of them, including [William E.] Bill Stoney, [Jr.], got patents on that shape, and so we converged on that configuration. Initially, it didn’t have any window, except a porthole on one side, and that was felt—you know the sardine passenger, that was felt [demeaning to the astronaut]. I think it was much better that they installed a window in the Mercury capsule, a very funny window. Then they had so many panes in the window for safety that there were optical problems, and the astronaut had to be trained to do navigation by the stars through the window.\\n\\n Then the guidance and control problem came up, and we had to do simulations of that where we had to orient to the Earth with a scanner which bisected the signal from the Earth to give you the vertical, and that took a bit of study. Then just the logistics of the Mercury Project and monitoring all of the contractual work where you would go out occasionally to McDonnell [Aircraft Corporation] and may be on duty for thirty-six hours for verifying every step for the testing of the Mercury capsule. I would generally go out with an astronaut or two, and there [were] a lot of funny stories there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "… When you were working with Mr. Chilton, were you part of the Flight Dynamics Evaluation Team that actually came up with the specs for the Mercury capsule?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you share with us how that team worked and how you were able to come up with those specific requirements for McDonnell Aircraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no structure, somewhat. Just everybody started in and wrote and criticized everyone else, and it evolved from that. McDonnell was a worthy contractor, so things went fairly smoothly after the contract was awarded."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned visiting with them—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.75401231242515, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you share with us how that team worked and how you were able to come up with those specific requirements for McDonnell Aircraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no structure, somewhat. Just everybody started in and wrote and criticized everyone else, and it evolved from that. McDonnell was a worthy contractor, so things went fairly smoothly after the contract was awarded."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned visiting with them—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we invited them to propose to us a configuration, and that congealed it, but we knew what we wanted, and so it was pretty straightforward. They came back with what we expected them to propose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After Mercury, or during that time, the transition began or the talk began of opening up the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC] in Houston [Texas]. Can you tell us how that affected you and your family and your working and moving here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.726680347139055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no structure, somewhat. Just everybody started in and wrote and criticized everyone else, and it evolved from that. McDonnell was a worthy contractor, so things went fairly smoothly after the contract was awarded."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned visiting with them—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we invited them to propose to us a configuration, and that congealed it, but we knew what we wanted, and so it was pretty straightforward. They came back with what we expected them to propose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After Mercury, or during that time, the transition began or the talk began of opening up the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC] in Houston [Texas]. Can you tell us how that affected you and your family and your working and moving here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it tore the family structure up. Really, the reason for coming to Houston was somewhat nebulous. My wife was a psychiatrist and directing the Child Guidance Center at Virginia Beach, [Virginia] and so it was very disruptive to come here. Also, when we get here, the number of people coming onboard was just astronomical compared to the initial group. And many people didn’t come, and wandered off into other areas of NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that affect your working group to have an influx of new people?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.58520038571006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we invited them to propose to us a configuration, and that congealed it, but we knew what we wanted, and so it was pretty straightforward. They came back with what we expected them to propose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After Mercury, or during that time, the transition began or the talk began of opening up the Manned Spacecraft Center [MSC] in Houston [Texas]. Can you tell us how that affected you and your family and your working and moving here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it tore the family structure up. Really, the reason for coming to Houston was somewhat nebulous. My wife was a psychiatrist and directing the Child Guidance Center at Virginia Beach, [Virginia] and so it was very disruptive to come here. Also, when we get here, the number of people coming onboard was just astronomical compared to the initial group. And many people didn’t come, and wandered off into other areas of NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that affect your working group to have an influx of new people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, [initially] the new people that came in were very few in each [area], and they were all the really select group from the AVRO Program. So the only political problem was James Chamberlin, the head of the AVRO thing, and he was a remarkably bright fellow. He kind of husbanded all the information to himself, if he could, and he didn’t like to tell anybody else anything. But he was a very worthy in the lead, so it was not too bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first impressions of the new home that you and your family would have here in the Houston area?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 18.428000428566733, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it tore the family structure up. Really, the reason for coming to Houston was somewhat nebulous. My wife was a psychiatrist and directing the Child Guidance Center at Virginia Beach, [Virginia] and so it was very disruptive to come here. Also, when we get here, the number of people coming onboard was just astronomical compared to the initial group. And many people didn’t come, and wandered off into other areas of NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that affect your working group to have an influx of new people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, [initially] the new people that came in were very few in each [area], and they were all the really select group from the AVRO Program. So the only political problem was James Chamberlin, the head of the AVRO thing, and he was a remarkably bright fellow. He kind of husbanded all the information to himself, if he could, and he didn’t like to tell anybody else anything. But he was a very worthy in the lead, so it was not too bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first impressions of the new home that you and your family would have here in the Houston area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my wife was somewhat distressed because she came from directing a psychiatric center, so she entered the training program for a specialty in child guidance at Baylor [College of Medicine, Houston, Texas], so that she rapidly became involved in that, but it was disruptive to have moved to a small frog in a big pond, is the way she put it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live nearby the Space Center?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.920000476185256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, [initially] the new people that came in were very few in each [area], and they were all the really select group from the AVRO Program. So the only political problem was James Chamberlin, the head of the AVRO thing, and he was a remarkably bright fellow. He kind of husbanded all the information to himself, if he could, and he didn’t like to tell anybody else anything. But he was a very worthy in the lead, so it was not too bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your first impressions of the new home that you and your family would have here in the Houston area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my wife was somewhat distressed because she came from directing a psychiatric center, so she entered the training program for a specialty in child guidance at Baylor [College of Medicine, Houston, Texas], so that she rapidly became involved in that, but it was disruptive to have moved to a small frog in a big pond, is the way she put it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live nearby the Space Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, we were all somewhat around the Gulfgate area, and so we rented a house not far from there. Then in about a year there was an area which used to be largely Jewish got block-busted, and they dumped the homes for nothing, like a 3,500-square-foot prime piece of property might sell for [forty] grand, where the legitimate price might be for three times that. So we bought there when it was still convenient to work, but then, of course, I had to commute. After they started to build out here, with the commute, it was easy for her, but long, you know, forty minutes for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your work schedule change? Were your days now longer when the group moved to Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.466667195761396, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my wife was somewhat distressed because she came from directing a psychiatric center, so she entered the training program for a specialty in child guidance at Baylor [College of Medicine, Houston, Texas], so that she rapidly became involved in that, but it was disruptive to have moved to a small frog in a big pond, is the way she put it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live nearby the Space Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, we were all somewhat around the Gulfgate area, and so we rented a house not far from there. Then in about a year there was an area which used to be largely Jewish got block-busted, and they dumped the homes for nothing, like a 3,500-square-foot prime piece of property might sell for [forty] grand, where the legitimate price might be for three times that. So we bought there when it was still convenient to work, but then, of course, I had to commute. After they started to build out here, with the commute, it was easy for her, but long, you know, forty minutes for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your work schedule change? Were your days now longer when the group moved to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You would get, perhaps, if things got pressured, you might work very extensive hours. Just depended on how the pressure was and what the situation was. If you went out to McDonnell, you might be on duty thirty-six hours in a row. But the hours were whatever—whatever was needed was done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the main focus of your work once you arrived in Houston? What were you and your group attempting to accomplish?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.872428636742463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You would get, perhaps, if things got pressured, you might work very extensive hours. Just depended on how the pressure was and what the situation was. If you went out to McDonnell, you might be on duty thirty-six hours in a row. But the hours were whatever—whatever was needed was done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the main focus of your work once you arrived in Houston? What were you and your group attempting to accomplish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We started the various challenges to handle the Mercury capsule and attitude control of the Mercury capsule, the guidance of Mercury capsule, and that occupied us. And we had to, of course, support each mission. For example, you had to husband the fuel for attitude control because you had to have enough left [for re-entry]. When the space vehicle had to come back, it had to damp any oscillations. If you didn’t damp the oscillations, it might start spinning and just pulverize the astronaut.\\n\\n One of our astronauts was wasting the fuel doing frivolous things. I tried my best to stop him. We stopped him in time from using it too much, but he didn’t seem to be paying much attention to, “Stop using the attitude control. Stop it, stop it, stop it.” I don’t know whether he got reprimanded. I presume he got reprimanded later for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you were working on Mercury, were you also beginning to work on some of the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Gemini was off to the side, and it was just scaled up of the same technology. Then the Apollo thing started to arise, and just monitoring what was going on was the main activity since they are about a hundred times more in the contractor side of the house than in the NASA side of the house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you had worked with McDonnell Aircraft. Were there other contractors—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.747142929713846, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We started the various challenges to handle the Mercury capsule and attitude control of the Mercury capsule, the guidance of Mercury capsule, and that occupied us. And we had to, of course, support each mission. For example, you had to husband the fuel for attitude control because you had to have enough left [for re-entry]. When the space vehicle had to come back, it had to damp any oscillations. If you didn’t damp the oscillations, it might start spinning and just pulverize the astronaut.\\n\\n One of our astronauts was wasting the fuel doing frivolous things. I tried my best to stop him. We stopped him in time from using it too much, but he didn’t seem to be paying much attention to, “Stop using the attitude control. Stop it, stop it, stop it.” I don’t know whether he got reprimanded. I presume he got reprimanded later for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you were working on Mercury, were you also beginning to work on some of the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Gemini was off to the side, and it was just scaled up of the same technology. Then the Apollo thing started to arise, and just monitoring what was going on was the main activity since they are about a hundred times more in the contractor side of the house than in the NASA side of the house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you had worked with McDonnell Aircraft. Were there other contractors—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t work with them. NASA people went out to McDonnell to monitor each checkout of every vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other companies or institutions—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.71904769968205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Gemini was off to the side, and it was just scaled up of the same technology. Then the Apollo thing started to arise, and just monitoring what was going on was the main activity since they are about a hundred times more in the contractor side of the house than in the NASA side of the house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you had worked with McDonnell Aircraft. Were there other contractors—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t work with them. NASA people went out to McDonnell to monitor each checkout of every vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other companies or institutions—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were lots of subcontractors to McDonnell, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But were you also involved in going out to do oversight and monitoring their work?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.46560855520228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t work with them. NASA people went out to McDonnell to monitor each checkout of every vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other companies or institutions—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were lots of subcontractors to McDonnell, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But were you also involved in going out to do oversight and monitoring their work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For example, MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology Instrumentation Lab, Cambridge, Massachusetts] was doing a navigational instrument, and we were involved in that effort, where you take shots on stars in case—if in an emergency you had to manually bring the vehicle back in the proper form and so on. They had these backup modes of navigation, whereas really the thing could do everything automatically if so it needed to be done. The astronauts didn’t want the last maneuvers [to be done] automatically. They wanted to actually guide the thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that difference of procedure get agreed upon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 19.40623172800253, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were lots of subcontractors to McDonnell, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But were you also involved in going out to do oversight and monitoring their work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For example, MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology Instrumentation Lab, Cambridge, Massachusetts] was doing a navigational instrument, and we were involved in that effort, where you take shots on stars in case—if in an emergency you had to manually bring the vehicle back in the proper form and so on. They had these backup modes of navigation, whereas really the thing could do everything automatically if so it needed to be done. The astronauts didn’t want the last maneuvers [to be done] automatically. They wanted to actually guide the thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that difference of procedure get agreed upon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s how the window got in there. Until they could see out, what could they do? The porthole in the side window couldn’t do much, so at great expense to reconfigure the vehicle to incorporate this strange window—I think it had about five panes of glass in it; quartz, really. Of course, glass is very fragile, and you worry about damage in orbit and so on. So there was a lot of activity on the astronauts doing their thing as [back-up] if none of the automatic things work[ed]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point did you start working on or with, for the Apollo Program? Was it a natural transition of the work that you were doing with Mercury and Gemini?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.68683390946888, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I made mockups of what would happen, and I made the pitch, and I sold it. So they stuck me with being the manager. So, somehow or another, I got to be considered an optical person, and it was really a hobby. Optical questions seemed to come to me, were brought to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you share a few more details of how your idea and once you sold the idea, how it became a reality? How long did it take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were very concerned to have a decent way to study the landing and the rendezvous back with the mother vehicle, and we were desperate to do a proper job with that. This is the thing that solved the [visual] problem. Hence, at least I seemed to have no resistance selling it, although it was very expensive for the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was G.E. the manufacturer that helped you create the product?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "G.E. was showing us they could generate digital scenes, and Farand was showing us how they could make it appear to be a window looking out at reality. So I brought the two together, and I wrote the request for proposals, and they went out. Of course, I knew that [G.E. and Farand were the only group] worthy of doing the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take to implement the product and get it to the standard that you wanted to have?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.429815454965425, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were very concerned to have a decent way to study the landing and the rendezvous back with the mother vehicle, and we were desperate to do a proper job with that. This is the thing that solved the [visual] problem. Hence, at least I seemed to have no resistance selling it, although it was very expensive for the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was G.E. the manufacturer that helped you create the product?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "G.E. was showing us they could generate digital scenes, and Farand was showing us how they could make it appear to be a window looking out at reality. So I brought the two together, and I wrote the request for proposals, and they went out. Of course, I knew that [G.E. and Farand were the only group] worthy of doing the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take to implement the product and get it to the standard that you wanted to have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m having to make a wild guess. Less than a year. Of course, everything was very pressed at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was the new product received by those who were beginning to use it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.36646161662825, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "G.E. was showing us they could generate digital scenes, and Farand was showing us how they could make it appear to be a window looking out at reality. So I brought the two together, and I wrote the request for proposals, and they went out. Of course, I knew that [G.E. and Farand were the only group] worthy of doing the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did it take to implement the product and get it to the standard that you wanted to have?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m having to make a wild guess. Less than a year. Of course, everything was very pressed at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was the new product received by those who were beginning to use it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It worked great. Everybody was happy. They’re still using it. I don’t know whether they’re still doing it or not, but the lunar surface texture when they had not too much computer capacity, they made my initials, FTP, as the background pattern like a rug. I don’t think they still have that. I haven’t been there back to look."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a surprise for you or did it—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.5182906851425, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m having to make a wild guess. Less than a year. Of course, everything was very pressed at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was the new product received by those who were beginning to use it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It worked great. Everybody was happy. They’re still using it. I don’t know whether they’re still doing it or not, but the lunar surface texture when they had not too much computer capacity, they made my initials, FTP, as the background pattern like a rug. I don’t think they still have that. I haven’t been there back to look."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a surprise for you or did it—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, kind of, but I was the branch head, see, so they catered to the boss, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As it became more enhanced—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.909211872380556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It worked great. Everybody was happy. They’re still using it. I don’t know whether they’re still doing it or not, but the lunar surface texture when they had not too much computer capacity, they made my initials, FTP, as the background pattern like a rug. I don’t think they still have that. I haven’t been there back to look."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a surprise for you or did it—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, kind of, but I was the branch head, see, so they catered to the boss, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As it became more enhanced—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eventually it looks just as good as you would see—you see occasionally scenes of an airplane on TV, which are generated with a computer. As the memory gets greater and greater and greater, you can keep adding detail until you get enough that you can saturate what the eye expects to see, and then it looks real. But at the time, they were somewhat simplified because we didn’t have as much memory."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall the first times that the astronauts began using it for simulation? Were you there when—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 26.565790969311728, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, kind of, but I was the branch head, see, so they catered to the boss, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As it became more enhanced—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Eventually it looks just as good as you would see—you see occasionally scenes of an airplane on TV, which are generated with a computer. As the memory gets greater and greater and greater, you can keep adding detail until you get enough that you can saturate what the eye expects to see, and then it looks real. But at the time, they were somewhat simplified because we didn’t have as much memory."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall the first times that the astronauts began using it for simulation? Were you there when—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I presume they went back and sold their bosses that we had to have their training simulators do the same thing, so they took what we did and made trainers of the same technique."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s pretty interesting. How long were you in this area of development and enriching and enhancing the virtual system?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.985049488358069, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn’t have any problem. [I found it easy] to communicate with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there other examples of experiments and projects that you were able to make happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Gene Shoemaker, he wanted to have a mapping camera of the lunar surface. I worked that interface, and we started that project. But it got corrupted further downstream of being too elaborate, and the contractor never did successfully complete it. When the funds came in, it was given to a different organization, and they didn’t discipline the scientist enough to make him come down to reality. It was too much to put in a small box.\\n\\n Gene Shoemaker. You, of course, know of Shoemaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, sir."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was killed in an automobile wreck in Australia a couple years back. Shoemaker was well liked, but he and Gold were real enemies and debated. The debates were always an entertainment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you happen to get to witness some of those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.761166098175632, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Gene Shoemaker, he wanted to have a mapping camera of the lunar surface. I worked that interface, and we started that project. But it got corrupted further downstream of being too elaborate, and the contractor never did successfully complete it. When the funds came in, it was given to a different organization, and they didn’t discipline the scientist enough to make him come down to reality. It was too much to put in a small box.\\n\\n Gene Shoemaker. You, of course, know of Shoemaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, sir."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was killed in an automobile wreck in Australia a couple years back. Shoemaker was well liked, but he and Gold were real enemies and debated. The debates were always an entertainment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you happen to get to witness some of those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I saw the debates since I was having to work with them. I was the contact with both scientists [for their lunar cameras]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must, on occasion, have challenging aspects. Were there many scientists that wanted to put projects with the missions, but maybe didn’t have enough room?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.623517886861812, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was killed in an automobile wreck in Australia a couple years back. Shoemaker was well liked, but he and Gold were real enemies and debated. The debates were always an entertainment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you happen to get to witness some of those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I saw the debates since I was having to work with them. I was the contact with both scientists [for their lunar cameras]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must, on occasion, have challenging aspects. Were there many scientists that wanted to put projects with the missions, but maybe didn’t have enough room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a very limited amount of cargo space, and they confined the area for Gold’s thing to a certain size, which was enough to do the job. But then Shoemaker’s was confined very much, and it couldn’t—it was just too small to do as much as he wanted to do. Perhaps it could have been done, but the contractor never delivered the successful hardware. [Many worthy experiments could not be accommodated.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you explain the process of how a scientist, once their project was accepted, that it would be flown on a mission and how you were involved?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.470575429846456, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I saw the debates since I was having to work with them. I was the contact with both scientists [for their lunar cameras]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must, on occasion, have challenging aspects. Were there many scientists that wanted to put projects with the missions, but maybe didn’t have enough room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a very limited amount of cargo space, and they confined the area for Gold’s thing to a certain size, which was enough to do the job. But then Shoemaker’s was confined very much, and it couldn’t—it was just too small to do as much as he wanted to do. Perhaps it could have been done, but the contractor never delivered the successful hardware. [Many worthy experiments could not be accommodated.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you explain the process of how a scientist, once their project was accepted, that it would be flown on a mission and how you were involved?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At [NASA] Headquarters [panels] debate[d] on whether someone’s experiment is blessed or not. But as soon as it’s blessed, we wrote up requirements for proposals for the hardware needed to accomplish the experiment as desired. It was a very short time to do some of them. Some of them were sole-sourced and some of them were competed. The competitions—well, for example, Shoemaker’s handheld mapping camera, there might have been a half a dozen contractors bid it. Some of the proposals were ridiculous. The one that won it was not up to finishing the job [for a complicated camera in a confined space]. It was a very small company that won, not one of the larger ones. It was composed mostly of Hungarian Jewish refugees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In this new job, did you find there was a great deal of interest in the scientific community in being a part of the new space program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.522861588718282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a very limited amount of cargo space, and they confined the area for Gold’s thing to a certain size, which was enough to do the job. But then Shoemaker’s was confined very much, and it couldn’t—it was just too small to do as much as he wanted to do. Perhaps it could have been done, but the contractor never delivered the successful hardware. [Many worthy experiments could not be accommodated.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you explain the process of how a scientist, once their project was accepted, that it would be flown on a mission and how you were involved?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At [NASA] Headquarters [panels] debate[d] on whether someone’s experiment is blessed or not. But as soon as it’s blessed, we wrote up requirements for proposals for the hardware needed to accomplish the experiment as desired. It was a very short time to do some of them. Some of them were sole-sourced and some of them were competed. The competitions—well, for example, Shoemaker’s handheld mapping camera, there might have been a half a dozen contractors bid it. Some of the proposals were ridiculous. The one that won it was not up to finishing the job [for a complicated camera in a confined space]. It was a very small company that won, not one of the larger ones. It was composed mostly of Hungarian Jewish refugees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In this new job, did you find there was a great deal of interest in the scientific community in being a part of the new space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody was gung-ho, and money was no problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you involved with the Lunar Receiving Laboratory?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.692068431909203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At [NASA] Headquarters [panels] debate[d] on whether someone’s experiment is blessed or not. But as soon as it’s blessed, we wrote up requirements for proposals for the hardware needed to accomplish the experiment as desired. It was a very short time to do some of them. Some of them were sole-sourced and some of them were competed. The competitions—well, for example, Shoemaker’s handheld mapping camera, there might have been a half a dozen contractors bid it. Some of the proposals were ridiculous. The one that won it was not up to finishing the job [for a complicated camera in a confined space]. It was a very small company that won, not one of the larger ones. It was composed mostly of Hungarian Jewish refugees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In this new job, did you find there was a great deal of interest in the scientific community in being a part of the new space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody was gung-ho, and money was no problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you involved with the Lunar Receiving Laboratory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not involved with that. We were worried about there being something toxic, some mysterious virus or what have you, so they were very uptight about handling any of the return samples, yet they overlooked the fact the film cassettes we brought back had lunar dust all over them, and we cleaned those and we had all the waste. It looks like coal dust. Lunar soil looks like coal dust, that dark. If it had been something hazardous, we would have certainly spread it around. But they were real uptight about [something being] dangerous.\\n\\n A lot of things were dangerous. The reaction controls for attitude control, the chemical was very poisonous. By the time if you smelled it, it was too late, you were going to be dead. The same thing was used on the Shuttle. The attitude controls for the Shuttle are very toxic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The work that you did prior to Apollo 11, of course, led up to the success of the lunar landing. Could you share with us where you were when the\\n\\n Eagle\\n\\n landed?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.102298257676892, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody was gung-ho, and money was no problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you involved with the Lunar Receiving Laboratory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not involved with that. We were worried about there being something toxic, some mysterious virus or what have you, so they were very uptight about handling any of the return samples, yet they overlooked the fact the film cassettes we brought back had lunar dust all over them, and we cleaned those and we had all the waste. It looks like coal dust. Lunar soil looks like coal dust, that dark. If it had been something hazardous, we would have certainly spread it around. But they were real uptight about [something being] dangerous.\\n\\n A lot of things were dangerous. The reaction controls for attitude control, the chemical was very poisonous. By the time if you smelled it, it was too late, you were going to be dead. The same thing was used on the Shuttle. The attitude controls for the Shuttle are very toxic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The work that you did prior to Apollo 11, of course, led up to the success of the lunar landing. Could you share with us where you were when the\\n\\n Eagle\\n\\n landed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the\\n\\n Eagle\\n\\n landed, at the time I was doing the interface for the science for other experiments, and the celebration was not so much the landing as the return. That was the real celebration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you here in Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.558109175196545, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not involved with that. We were worried about there being something toxic, some mysterious virus or what have you, so they were very uptight about handling any of the return samples, yet they overlooked the fact the film cassettes we brought back had lunar dust all over them, and we cleaned those and we had all the waste. It looks like coal dust. Lunar soil looks like coal dust, that dark. If it had been something hazardous, we would have certainly spread it around. But they were real uptight about [something being] dangerous.\\n\\n A lot of things were dangerous. The reaction controls for attitude control, the chemical was very poisonous. By the time if you smelled it, it was too late, you were going to be dead. The same thing was used on the Shuttle. The attitude controls for the Shuttle are very toxic."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The work that you did prior to Apollo 11, of course, led up to the success of the lunar landing. Could you share with us where you were when the\\n\\n Eagle\\n\\n landed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the\\n\\n Eagle\\n\\n landed, at the time I was doing the interface for the science for other experiments, and the celebration was not so much the landing as the return. That was the real celebration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you here in Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the first mission, the control center had the VIP [Very Important People] lounge where the scientists were supposed to be. [Since I was a co-investigator with T. Gold, I was there.] There must have been about fifteen or twenty of us. Wernher von Braun [was] there. Later on, people want[ed] to get in there, and they crowded everybody out unless you had a political clout to get in the control center. The overview is like a balcony looking down at the control center.\\n\\n Then the first mission when the astronauts landed, everybody was jumping up around and waving flags and things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the success of this first landing, was there an increase of requests from scientists to become more a part?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 26.175676861329496, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When the\\n\\n Eagle\\n\\n landed, at the time I was doing the interface for the science for other experiments, and the celebration was not so much the landing as the return. That was the real celebration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you here in Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the first mission, the control center had the VIP [Very Important People] lounge where the scientists were supposed to be. [Since I was a co-investigator with T. Gold, I was there.] There must have been about fifteen or twenty of us. Wernher von Braun [was] there. Later on, people want[ed] to get in there, and they crowded everybody out unless you had a political clout to get in the control center. The overview is like a balcony looking down at the control center.\\n\\n Then the first mission when the astronauts landed, everybody was jumping up around and waving flags and things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the success of this first landing, was there an increase of requests from scientists to become more a part?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "See, we didn’t see all those proposals coming in. Headquarters only sent us back the worthiest of them. We had lots of nutcase calls, and we had to field those, a lot of crazy stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got those here, as well as at Headquarters."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.750752068143886, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the first mission, the control center had the VIP [Very Important People] lounge where the scientists were supposed to be. [Since I was a co-investigator with T. Gold, I was there.] There must have been about fifteen or twenty of us. Wernher von Braun [was] there. Later on, people want[ed] to get in there, and they crowded everybody out unless you had a political clout to get in the control center. The overview is like a balcony looking down at the control center.\\n\\n Then the first mission when the astronauts landed, everybody was jumping up around and waving flags and things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the success of this first landing, was there an increase of requests from scientists to become more a part?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "See, we didn’t see all those proposals coming in. Headquarters only sent us back the worthiest of them. We had lots of nutcase calls, and we had to field those, a lot of crazy stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got those here, as well as at Headquarters."}, {"role": "user", "content": "… I remember one crazy call. This is somewhat risqué. This woman with a funny accent kept calling in to the astronauts. They had somebody fielding the calls, and I knew one of the guys fielding the calls. This woman calls in, and she strongly objected to the use of monkeys for those Mercury flights, especially female ones because their reproductive systems were accommodating [to] thrust so it would be an invalid subject.\\n\\n The guy that was listening to the call recognized the voice of this woman, and she used a lot of obscenities, and she was raving and raving and raving. He recognized the voice as the wife of a professor at University of Florida [Gainesville, Florida]. During a lull in our conversation, he chimed in and said, “How is so-and-so?” Not her husband, the boyfriend. She shrieked and dropped the phone, and they never heard from her again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess there were very few dull moments during those time periods."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.18798524792758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was heading the camera group. But then all of that was terminated when the whole thing was sent to the Ames Lab.\\n\\n We had not only space instruments, but lots of aircraft flights shooting crops at various stages of the growth, correlating that with the ground to see what nuances of color you could see from space for what those nuances meant on the ground. That’s a major program.\\n\\n Professor Robert Colwell was a major factor in that. He was a professor of geology at [University of California] Berkeley [California]. In World War II, he was head of Naval Intelligence Pacific, and he was a very conservative person, excellent speaker. The campus at Berkeley is very rabid, well, [ultra liberal]. Anyway, they were always trying to harass him. He [won every] debate with them, but there was always harassment with Professor Colwell, and he was not even working in politics. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in the methods of technology that helped prepare the instruments to go to space when you were part of the Earth Resources as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was part of the program of selecting the contractors and managing the contracts for those instruments. Just managing those programs and then dealing with the data that came back and testing and this and that, that saturated all of the effort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the Earth Resources a new division that you helped establish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a [new] division. I didn’t help establish it. Bob Piland was the first person, and I was just one of his supervisors. And later on, the emphasis changed. They decided to have [the program at] the Manned Spacecraft Center [be a scientist managed organization rather than] an engineering organization [interfacing with the outside scientific community. They had] the scientists come in and supervise and become the lead of that program at the Manned Spacecraft Center. They weren’t engineers and they weren’t the top scientists, but they decided they were going to be the bosses, and [they] subordinated the engineering, and then a lot of projects were misdirected. Maybe that’s why it was transferred to Ames Lab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did many projects not reach fruition as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 20.208872497697307, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was part of the program of selecting the contractors and managing the contracts for those instruments. Just managing those programs and then dealing with the data that came back and testing and this and that, that saturated all of the effort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the Earth Resources a new division that you helped establish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a [new] division. I didn’t help establish it. Bob Piland was the first person, and I was just one of his supervisors. And later on, the emphasis changed. They decided to have [the program at] the Manned Spacecraft Center [be a scientist managed organization rather than] an engineering organization [interfacing with the outside scientific community. They had] the scientists come in and supervise and become the lead of that program at the Manned Spacecraft Center. They weren’t engineers and they weren’t the top scientists, but they decided they were going to be the bosses, and [they] subordinated the engineering, and then a lot of projects were misdirected. Maybe that’s why it was transferred to Ames Lab."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did many projects not reach fruition as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the multispectral project. We developed the cameras, I think a couple [million] bucks apiece, but then the instrument to put the images back together would be, in effect, an optical computer, something maybe the size of this room. That program was cancelled by the guy who wanted to promote scanners rather than cameras, which was really naïve, because it was a complementary program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After the work that you were helping with, with the Apollo Program, and those days started to end, of course, talk was beginning about Shuttle. Could you share with us what you were doing and what your roles were during the time between as the Apollo ended and before the Shuttle began? Were you involved with ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project] or with the Skylab?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.974809476752489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When it came to using the cameras, yes, and it was hard to get some of them to focus cameras properly. There were all sorts of problems. The cameras were limited. The spacecraft has about a third of an atmosphere of pressure inside, and as you reduce the pressure or density of the gas around a camera lens, the camera lens is relatively stronger, so it focuses the picture in front of the film, so you’ve got to move the lens closer to the film to compensate for the cabin pressure, which was a problem. Then the window degrades the image dramatically, and you had to cope with that. Then you have to trade off the film speed and resolution versus the shutter speed and all of those things, and that’s a full-time job having interface with the astronauts and the astronaut trainers to keep that program rolling and calibrate all of the equipment. They used, of course, many different kinds of cameras, and all of them had those problems with the image quality.\\n\\n Also, [at the Johnson Space Center] they didn’t want to ever give out any of the original film, so they made a master from the original film. Then they made the prints they distributed to the scientists from that. So that was the third generation, and every time you copy, you degrade the information. I don’t know how to cope with that and preserve the originals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you familiar with the IMAX camera before it—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our first acquaintance with it was when they proposed to do [a] film [documenting] the Shuttle Program. The premiere was done at the Smithsonian [Institution] in Washington [D.C.], and it was a great success. Have you ever been there to see the IMAX?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you ever seen [their next movie about the space program]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, they’re very stunning."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.083121640836097, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our first acquaintance with it was when they proposed to do [a] film [documenting] the Shuttle Program. The premiere was done at the Smithsonian [Institution] in Washington [D.C.], and it was a great success. Have you ever been there to see the IMAX?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you ever seen [their next movie about the space program]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, they’re very stunning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The “Girl Friday” of the head of IMAX was an Indian, American Indian, and very sharp. … [She was great at getting things done.] She got caught sneaking under the [JSC] fence, just trying to get some logistics done supporting the [movie], and they raised hell with her about it. Of course, she got away with it because she wasn’t doing anything wrong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of differences did you encounter of preparing any types of these types of payloads for the Shuttle as you did when you were the Apollo era? Were you able to use the same processes and procedures?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.203468489817885, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you ever seen [their next movie about the space program]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, they’re very stunning."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The “Girl Friday” of the head of IMAX was an Indian, American Indian, and very sharp. … [She was great at getting things done.] She got caught sneaking under the [JSC] fence, just trying to get some logistics done supporting the [movie], and they raised hell with her about it. Of course, she got away with it because she wasn’t doing anything wrong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of differences did you encounter of preparing any types of these types of payloads for the Shuttle as you did when you were the Apollo era? Were you able to use the same processes and procedures?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You worry about the stress of going into orbit. The forces and vibrations are heavy. You would be surprised. That great big rocket on Apollo vibrates in all these modes, including the pogo mode [end to] end, and these forces are enough to tear things apart. You had to take all the equipment and design it to cope with that, and then you had to put it in machines to vibrate that to see if it would withstand what you designed it to meet. That was just the environment challenge. The temperature problem, the pressurization problem, the window problem, and the operational problem of the astronauts, all those things you had to constantly deal with them and fight. As long as they were using the equipment, you were just saturated performing that task and then analyzing what they got back and how they did this and should have done that, and how to use it. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you encounter then the same type of aspects when you were preparing things for the Shuttle that you had to do all the testing for the environment and pressure?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.33718721090876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The “Girl Friday” of the head of IMAX was an Indian, American Indian, and very sharp. … [She was great at getting things done.] She got caught sneaking under the [JSC] fence, just trying to get some logistics done supporting the [movie], and they raised hell with her about it. Of course, she got away with it because she wasn’t doing anything wrong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of differences did you encounter of preparing any types of these types of payloads for the Shuttle as you did when you were the Apollo era? Were you able to use the same processes and procedures?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You worry about the stress of going into orbit. The forces and vibrations are heavy. You would be surprised. That great big rocket on Apollo vibrates in all these modes, including the pogo mode [end to] end, and these forces are enough to tear things apart. You had to take all the equipment and design it to cope with that, and then you had to put it in machines to vibrate that to see if it would withstand what you designed it to meet. That was just the environment challenge. The temperature problem, the pressurization problem, the window problem, and the operational problem of the astronauts, all those things you had to constantly deal with them and fight. As long as they were using the equipment, you were just saturated performing that task and then analyzing what they got back and how they did this and should have done that, and how to use it. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you encounter then the same type of aspects when you were preparing things for the Shuttle that you had to do all the testing for the environment and pressure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just as much as you did for the Apollo. You had the terrible vibrations and forces of getting into orbit. You had to cope with the pressure and temperature problems in orbit, and then just the astronauts’ activity supporting it to get a maximum return. There’s a whole staff of people training the astronauts, and some astronauts were real good, some were not so good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had so many more going on the Shuttle than you did with the Apollo, so that must have added a little bit more—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.596874678787511, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You worry about the stress of going into orbit. The forces and vibrations are heavy. You would be surprised. That great big rocket on Apollo vibrates in all these modes, including the pogo mode [end to] end, and these forces are enough to tear things apart. You had to take all the equipment and design it to cope with that, and then you had to put it in machines to vibrate that to see if it would withstand what you designed it to meet. That was just the environment challenge. The temperature problem, the pressurization problem, the window problem, and the operational problem of the astronauts, all those things you had to constantly deal with them and fight. As long as they were using the equipment, you were just saturated performing that task and then analyzing what they got back and how they did this and should have done that, and how to use it. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you encounter then the same type of aspects when you were preparing things for the Shuttle that you had to do all the testing for the environment and pressure?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just as much as you did for the Apollo. You had the terrible vibrations and forces of getting into orbit. You had to cope with the pressure and temperature problems in orbit, and then just the astronauts’ activity supporting it to get a maximum return. There’s a whole staff of people training the astronauts, and some astronauts were real good, some were not so good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had so many more going on the Shuttle than you did with the Apollo, so that must have added a little bit more—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[It was very important to communicate with the astronauts and to recognize their insights.] …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were with the Space Program for thirty-seven years, and you saw quite many changes, including—I’m going to ask you about some changes that you saw in your first virtual reality concepts that you put together and then, of course, what they’re using now for the Shuttle in how to do training. Could you share that with us?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.885416309763901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just as much as you did for the Apollo. You had the terrible vibrations and forces of getting into orbit. You had to cope with the pressure and temperature problems in orbit, and then just the astronauts’ activity supporting it to get a maximum return. There’s a whole staff of people training the astronauts, and some astronauts were real good, some were not so good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had so many more going on the Shuttle than you did with the Apollo, so that must have added a little bit more—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[It was very important to communicate with the astronauts and to recognize their insights.] …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were with the Space Program for thirty-seven years, and you saw quite many changes, including—I’m going to ask you about some changes that you saw in your first virtual reality concepts that you put together and then, of course, what they’re using now for the Shuttle in how to do training. Could you share that with us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t seen the current equipment, but I’m sure they’ve got some of the old—see, it’s expensive to do the virtual reality properly, and they’ve probably got some lesser systems. But I’m sure they’ve got some of the real ones around. I’ve got to go over to Building 16 and look and see if that stuff’s still there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What other areas did you have some specific involvement in during those first days that you were here, that you feel are still having an impact on today’s space program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 14.317129233071, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[It was very important to communicate with the astronauts and to recognize their insights.] …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were with the Space Program for thirty-seven years, and you saw quite many changes, including—I’m going to ask you about some changes that you saw in your first virtual reality concepts that you put together and then, of course, what they’re using now for the Shuttle in how to do training. Could you share that with us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t seen the current equipment, but I’m sure they’ve got some of the old—see, it’s expensive to do the virtual reality properly, and they’ve probably got some lesser systems. But I’m sure they’ve got some of the real ones around. I’ve got to go over to Building 16 and look and see if that stuff’s still there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What other areas did you have some specific involvement in during those first days that you were here, that you feel are still having an impact on today’s space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, everything’s melted together, but I presume that training with valid virtual realities is significant, I’m sure. The more valid it is, the more virtuous the reality, the more likely they’re to benefit from the training, and the astronaut training is a big activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Also during the tenure at NASA that you had, there were so many high points, but there were some tragic times, too, including the loss of Apollo 1 crew and of\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n . Can you tell us how that affected your work?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.294969110000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They [redesigned the gasket system]. That’s about all I can think of they did. They insulated one of the struts that held the oxygen-hydrogen tank, so that the falling ice being shed off a tank wouldn’t damage the strut so much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did these setbacks or any other incidents in your time with NASA ever make you stop to think that maybe you wanted to change your career?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In [19]’93, what prompted you to retire from NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was sixty-nine years old. I was older than [almost] everybody. Also, I had been diagnosed with cutaneous lymphoma, and I was going to have to undergo whole-body radiation plus a year of chemotherapy. I didn’t know, but you can’t do anything under those conditions. You hold on to the walls for a year after [treatment]. … After ten years, they told me I was cured [and said almost no one is ever cured]. But the penalties, your tear glands, your salivary glands, your sense of smell, [your sense of taste] are all very badly damaged, lots of other things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned a couple times in our conversation today that you referred to this morning, so you still have a chance to meet with some of your colleagues."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.772187900000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In [19]’93, what prompted you to retire from NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was sixty-nine years old. I was older than [almost] everybody. Also, I had been diagnosed with cutaneous lymphoma, and I was going to have to undergo whole-body radiation plus a year of chemotherapy. I didn’t know, but you can’t do anything under those conditions. You hold on to the walls for a year after [treatment]. … After ten years, they told me I was cured [and said almost no one is ever cured]. But the penalties, your tear glands, your salivary glands, your sense of smell, [your sense of taste] are all very badly damaged, lots of other things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned a couple times in our conversation today that you referred to this morning, so you still have a chance to meet with some of your colleagues."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every month, some of the very senior types meet at a restaurant [for breakfast]. Carl Watkins [coordinates these meetings]. … Typically, maybe thirty-some people will show. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The success of the space program for the United States, of course, results from all of the work of individuals like yourself and your other colleagues. Are there other people that, as you were working at NASA, made an impact on your life or maybe served as a mentor or someone that you remember as being very instrumental in helping you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.302431000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was sixty-nine years old. I was older than [almost] everybody. Also, I had been diagnosed with cutaneous lymphoma, and I was going to have to undergo whole-body radiation plus a year of chemotherapy. I didn’t know, but you can’t do anything under those conditions. You hold on to the walls for a year after [treatment]. … After ten years, they told me I was cured [and said almost no one is ever cured]. But the penalties, your tear glands, your salivary glands, your sense of smell, [your sense of taste] are all very badly damaged, lots of other things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned a couple times in our conversation today that you referred to this morning, so you still have a chance to meet with some of your colleagues."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every month, some of the very senior types meet at a restaurant [for breakfast]. Carl Watkins [coordinates these meetings]. … Typically, maybe thirty-some people will show. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The success of the space program for the United States, of course, results from all of the work of individuals like yourself and your other colleagues. Are there other people that, as you were working at NASA, made an impact on your life or maybe served as a mentor or someone that you remember as being very instrumental in helping you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I knew a lot of instrumental people, but I don’t look upon them as—I mean, everybody was self-teaching themselves. You had to become good at aerodynamics, electronics, optics, physics, all of that stuff. [We became self taught] rocket scientist[s]. The term is now in the language."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mr. Pearce, what do you consider to be the most challenging aspect of your career with working with NASA? What was the most challenging time for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.891590000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every month, some of the very senior types meet at a restaurant [for breakfast]. Carl Watkins [coordinates these meetings]. … Typically, maybe thirty-some people will show. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The success of the space program for the United States, of course, results from all of the work of individuals like yourself and your other colleagues. Are there other people that, as you were working at NASA, made an impact on your life or maybe served as a mentor or someone that you remember as being very instrumental in helping you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I knew a lot of instrumental people, but I don’t look upon them as—I mean, everybody was self-teaching themselves. You had to become good at aerodynamics, electronics, optics, physics, all of that stuff. [We became self taught] rocket scientist[s]. The term is now in the language."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mr. Pearce, what do you consider to be the most challenging aspect of your career with working with NASA? What was the most challenging time for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the worst time was when they decided to bring [some] scientists into NASA and have them supervise the [experiment] engineering rather than have NASA have the engineers go to the [scientific community] and give them everything they could possibly hope to get, rather than [have] the scientist dictating what he thinks he ought to get. Generally speaking, we gave them everything they could possibly squeeze [on to the spacecraft]. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the other end of that, what do you consider, with everything that you’ve done and so much that you’ve done, is there an area or two areas or however many areas that you consider to be the most significant accomplishment that you’ve made?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.4351, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I knew a lot of instrumental people, but I don’t look upon them as—I mean, everybody was self-teaching themselves. You had to become good at aerodynamics, electronics, optics, physics, all of that stuff. [We became self taught] rocket scientist[s]. The term is now in the language."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mr. Pearce, what do you consider to be the most challenging aspect of your career with working with NASA? What was the most challenging time for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the worst time was when they decided to bring [some] scientists into NASA and have them supervise the [experiment] engineering rather than have NASA have the engineers go to the [scientific community] and give them everything they could possibly hope to get, rather than [have] the scientist dictating what he thinks he ought to get. Generally speaking, we gave them everything they could possibly squeeze [on to the spacecraft]. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the other end of that, what do you consider, with everything that you’ve done and so much that you’ve done, is there an area or two areas or however many areas that you consider to be the most significant accomplishment that you’ve made?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Doing the first virtual reality, I guess that’s the most significant thing. I guess that was it. That was the first real virtual reality, and that was in [19]’62, ’63."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve talked quite a bit about many of the roles that you’ve done, but are there aspects or areas that we haven’t covered this morning that you would like for us to know or maybe some moments or remembrances of your time with NASA that we haven’t covered yet that you’d like to spend some time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.039, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the worst time was when they decided to bring [some] scientists into NASA and have them supervise the [experiment] engineering rather than have NASA have the engineers go to the [scientific community] and give them everything they could possibly hope to get, rather than [have] the scientist dictating what he thinks he ought to get. Generally speaking, we gave them everything they could possibly squeeze [on to the spacecraft]. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the other end of that, what do you consider, with everything that you’ve done and so much that you’ve done, is there an area or two areas or however many areas that you consider to be the most significant accomplishment that you’ve made?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Doing the first virtual reality, I guess that’s the most significant thing. I guess that was it. That was the first real virtual reality, and that was in [19]’62, ’63."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve talked quite a bit about many of the roles that you’ve done, but are there aspects or areas that we haven’t covered this morning that you would like for us to know or maybe some moments or remembrances of your time with NASA that we haven’t covered yet that you’d like to spend some time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right at the moment, nothing comes to mind other than the fact, it is very regrettable that they abandoned the Earth Resource Program at this center and pushed it into limbo. That was unfortunate, because a lot of that was a lot more worthy than much of the stuff that’s now being [done]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask Jennifer if you have any questions.\n\nI thought of one question. You mentioned that you interfaced with the scientists on experiments for the Apollo Program, and I’m curious, we have read a lot of books that talked about the tensions between scientists and engineers in the Manned Spacecraft Center. What were your perceptions of that during the sixties?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 6.71, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Doing the first virtual reality, I guess that’s the most significant thing. I guess that was it. That was the first real virtual reality, and that was in [19]’62, ’63."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve talked quite a bit about many of the roles that you’ve done, but are there aspects or areas that we haven’t covered this morning that you would like for us to know or maybe some moments or remembrances of your time with NASA that we haven’t covered yet that you’d like to spend some time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right at the moment, nothing comes to mind other than the fact, it is very regrettable that they abandoned the Earth Resource Program at this center and pushed it into limbo. That was unfortunate, because a lot of that was a lot more worthy than much of the stuff that’s now being [done]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask Jennifer if you have any questions.\n\nI thought of one question. You mentioned that you interfaced with the scientists on experiments for the Apollo Program, and I’m curious, we have read a lot of books that talked about the tensions between scientists and engineers in the Manned Spacecraft Center. What were your perceptions of that during the sixties?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, perhaps on my programs they always listened to me, so I somehow had the knack in that I could interface with them, and they always bought my side, my argument. A lot of other people that should have straightened something out didn’t. But it was very important to interface with scientists or astronauts. You’ve got to be able to interface on their level, and if you can’t, the information doesn’t go back and forth. They’ve got to believe you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also had another question about your Earth Resources Program. Can you give us a timeline of when that began and when that program ended?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right at the moment, nothing comes to mind other than the fact, it is very regrettable that they abandoned the Earth Resource Program at this center and pushed it into limbo. That was unfortunate, because a lot of that was a lot more worthy than much of the stuff that’s now being [done]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask Jennifer if you have any questions.\n\nI thought of one question. You mentioned that you interfaced with the scientists on experiments for the Apollo Program, and I’m curious, we have read a lot of books that talked about the tensions between scientists and engineers in the Manned Spacecraft Center. What were your perceptions of that during the sixties?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, perhaps on my programs they always listened to me, so I somehow had the knack in that I could interface with them, and they always bought my side, my argument. A lot of other people that should have straightened something out didn’t. But it was very important to interface with scientists or astronauts. You’ve got to be able to interface on their level, and if you can’t, the information doesn’t go back and forth. They’ve got to believe you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also had another question about your Earth Resources Program. Can you give us a timeline of when that began and when that program ended?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say it began to be significant like in [19]’68, ’69, maybe, and I’m trying to think of the date when they moved it to Ames. Oh, middle seventies. It was a big thing here. We had three or four airplanes flying out of Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas], and a whole batch of things going, and they just vanished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you worked with contractors. Did you work at all with any other federal agencies, like the Department of Agriculture or NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:140", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, perhaps on my programs they always listened to me, so I somehow had the knack in that I could interface with them, and they always bought my side, my argument. A lot of other people that should have straightened something out didn’t. But it was very important to interface with scientists or astronauts. You’ve got to be able to interface on their level, and if you can’t, the information doesn’t go back and forth. They’ve got to believe you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also had another question about your Earth Resources Program. Can you give us a timeline of when that began and when that program ended?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say it began to be significant like in [19]’68, ’69, maybe, and I’m trying to think of the date when they moved it to Ames. Oh, middle seventies. It was a big thing here. We had three or four airplanes flying out of Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas], and a whole batch of things going, and they just vanished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you worked with contractors. Did you work at all with any other federal agencies, like the Department of Agriculture or NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no, they weren’t putting [many] experiments onboard. Of course, NOAA, we had weather problems and we always interfaced with them and all that governs the thing, when you do the mission. [When informed about solar flares, we] put the astronauts in the heaviest shielded part of the Space Station, otherwise, they’re liable to be injured by the solar flare.\\n\\n But in general, [it was not] the government agencies. It was the academic community that was feeding the experiments into the programs, and we were getting some of the best stuff that way. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we end, I was going to ask if you had any involvement at all with all the different phases of the Space Station development that NASA has."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:142", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say it began to be significant like in [19]’68, ’69, maybe, and I’m trying to think of the date when they moved it to Ames. Oh, middle seventies. It was a big thing here. We had three or four airplanes flying out of Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas], and a whole batch of things going, and they just vanished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you worked with contractors. Did you work at all with any other federal agencies, like the Department of Agriculture or NOAA [National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no, they weren’t putting [many] experiments onboard. Of course, NOAA, we had weather problems and we always interfaced with them and all that governs the thing, when you do the mission. [When informed about solar flares, we] put the astronauts in the heaviest shielded part of the Space Station, otherwise, they’re liable to be injured by the solar flare.\\n\\n But in general, [it was not] the government agencies. It was the academic community that was feeding the experiments into the programs, and we were getting some of the best stuff that way. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we end, I was going to ask if you had any involvement at all with all the different phases of the Space Station development that NASA has."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Space Station was—I did interface significantly. It was a parallel program and the Shuttle was saturating us just keeping current with what we were doing there, and so I never really interfaced with the Space Station, other than some slight early inputs about the windows. To do an appropriate window, which is very, very important, not just from the tourist standpoint of the astronauts, but the instruments have to go see through the windows. First, it has to be safe, and to be optically perfect, it’s extremely extravagant, unbelievably expensive. A window. A window might [cost] several million dollars to do this, to have perfect quartz, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you would like to add today?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00435:144", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, no, they weren’t putting [many] experiments onboard. Of course, NOAA, we had weather problems and we always interfaced with them and all that governs the thing, when you do the mission. [When informed about solar flares, we] put the astronauts in the heaviest shielded part of the Space Station, otherwise, they’re liable to be injured by the solar flare.\\n\\n But in general, [it was not] the government agencies. It was the academic community that was feeding the experiments into the programs, and we were getting some of the best stuff that way. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we end, I was going to ask if you had any involvement at all with all the different phases of the Space Station development that NASA has."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Space Station was—I did interface significantly. It was a parallel program and the Shuttle was saturating us just keeping current with what we were doing there, and so I never really interfaced with the Space Station, other than some slight early inputs about the windows. To do an appropriate window, which is very, very important, not just from the tourist standpoint of the astronauts, but the instruments have to go see through the windows. First, it has to be safe, and to be optically perfect, it’s extremely extravagant, unbelievably expensive. A window. A window might [cost] several million dollars to do this, to have perfect quartz, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you would like to add today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, right at the moment, I don’t think of it. Later, I’ll probably think of something, and you’ll say, “Why didn’t we ask him about such-and such?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that seems to happen, and so we’ll have that opportunity maybe to add as we review your transcript. But we thank you for coming in today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 67.62598841885637, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a funny time right after that. I got a letter from Doc, and he said—and I knew this anyway—he said, \"You know, every device that I've ever developed (and there were many of them), I've always wanted to be involved in the first flight, to make sure everything worked properly. I'd like to have you and your boss Jim consider me as an astronaut.\"\\n\\n I took it in to show Jim Webb, and he got very excited. He said, \"Isn't that wonderful, one of our scientists is interested in going and being directly involved.\" He said, \"I think I'll take it over and show it to President Kennedy tomorrow when I'm with him.\"\\n\\n And Hugh Dryden said, \"Wait a minute, Jim. Doc Draper is over sixty years old. I'm not sure his health would permit it. We can get in a terrible mess if we start selecting astronauts that way.\"\\n\\n And Doc Draper never let me forget it. He said, \"You never acted on my suggestion. I was all ready to go to the moon and you wouldn't let me go.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure he would have done a good job at it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure he would have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let's see. Where do you think we are?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we're moving along. As we're talking about the contractors for Apollo and you were talking about having to review the contracts as they came in and knowing something about what it would be doing, but when the first contract for Apollo, for North American, was put out, a method of getting there hadn't fully been decided yet."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 75.13998713206263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure he would have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let's see. Where do you think we are?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we're moving along. As we're talking about the contractors for Apollo and you were talking about having to review the contracts as they came in and knowing something about what it would be doing, but when the first contract for Apollo, for North American, was put out, a method of getting there hadn't fully been decided yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lunar orbit and earth orbit and direct descent. When did you first hear about that, and how did that all go?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 49.02809767753591, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Korolov. Yes. Why they were going that route I think only he knew, probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting that it ended up being the same, even though they didn't actually go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had an additional wrinkle to it; they also had [earth] orbit rendezvous. They were going to put everything up in earth orbit, without their cosmonauts aboard, and then take the cosmonauts up separately, rendezvous and dock, then go to the moon, and then up there again have, I think—I forget whether it was one or two cosmonauts go down to the moon, but leave one up going around, in orbit around the moon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Slightly different approach but very much the same."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very similar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. How much were you aware at time of the Soviet progress?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 57.195182317945566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very similar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. How much were you aware at time of the Soviet progress?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were aware of everything you could see. A small group of us at NASA were cleared for the overhead photography that was available. It was very closely held at that time. But we had one room at NASA that was built so that we could actually have somebody come over, chained to their wrist, and take it out and show it, then rechain it to their wrist and leave, and all that kind of business. It was a glass room inside of a room, so that there was no window to the outside for people to get the vibration of the window and intercept the conversation that way, and all this spook stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had briefings from the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency]… (A), when anything exciting happened, and, (B), quarterly, their estimate of what was going on. As I say, we tracked the big vehicle, because they had to have a big vehicle if they're going to go to the moon, and their big vehicle, instead of taking things out to the pad vertically, they took the things out horizontally. The first thing we saw was a great big long building with a track going out to where the pad was. Well, that was the first clue. Then we caught the thing on the track on the way out, and then we had got a picture of it sitting there ready to take off. Then the next thing we got a picture of was a big hole in the ground; it exploded. Then we saw another one coming along, and that one also exploded. So we had a pretty good feel for it, pretty good. We were also picking up conversation, with satellites, because Korolov at the time was using his car phone, and we were able to intercept some of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting. As the program was moving along—and this is actually jumping back a little bit—and once Kennedy had announced that we should take this challenge and go to the moon, and the program was going to have to grow and have to change, and the decision was made to move down to Houston, how much were you involved in that decision process?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 81.82504232444535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Magnificent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And for a civil service team to be moved that way is very unusual. I think we only lost one person in that move. It had to be optional, whether people wanted to move or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the spirit in that group was so great that everybody wanted to be part of it. I think a few people moved even though they realized that they were probably risking their marriage in the process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's quite a move to go from Langley to Houston."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 43, "return_to_go": 89.80560258271706, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And for a civil service team to be moved that way is very unusual. I think we only lost one person in that move. It had to be optional, whether people wanted to move or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the spirit in that group was so great that everybody wanted to be part of it. I think a few people moved even though they realized that they were probably risking their marriage in the process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's quite a move to go from Langley to Houston."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were some similarities. They're both pretty hot in the summer, a little hotter down at Houston, but the bayous and so on are sort of like the tideland area down in the Chesapeake. Anyway, it worked out wonderfully."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of the in-between areas were covered in your first couple of interviews, so now we'll actually kind of jump forward some. You mentioned earlier the Apollo fire, and that was a tremendous tragedy. How did you help work through that with NASA? How did that affect you and your career and help NASA come back on track and make the moon landing successful?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 47.574260515686696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was rough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your friendship was strong enough to come through."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was terribly rough on Joe Shea, because he was to be in the capsule, to make things even worse, and at the last minute his headset didn't work, so he thought, \"Well, there's no point in lying there in the capsule if I can't hear anything,\" so he went and got in a plane that was flying back to Houston when he got the news. I guess the doctor in charge of all of the medical stuff associated with the astronauts was—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Dr. Charles A.] Chuck Berry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Chuck. I talked to him quite a bit during this period, because he was helping the astronaut wives and he was helping all kinds of people who were deeply distressed by all of this. He told me that people would come to Washington to testify and do various things and they'd be sort of sobbing all the way to Washington. I mean, it was a very emotional time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me pause here for a moment to change the tape."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 45.15340804405764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Chuck. I talked to him quite a bit during this period, because he was helping the astronaut wives and he was helping all kinds of people who were deeply distressed by all of this. He told me that people would come to Washington to testify and do various things and they'd be sort of sobbing all the way to Washington. I mean, it was a very emotional time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me pause here for a moment to change the tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. He [President Kennedy] said to his friend Senator [George A.] Smathers would probably come with him, senator from Florida, and, \"We'll call you back in half an hour.\" So anyway, this is a model of what he was actually pointing at of the real thing sitting there on the pad. It was a Saturn I. This second stage was going to be used for the first time. It had liquid hydrogen [as a fuel,] which we were going to use for the first time in a Saturn… It was going to put the [heaviest] load in orbit…[up to that time.]\\n\\n So anyway, we showed [the President the vehicle. This is Wernher von Braun in the photograph, along with the President and myself. Then] we got in his helicopter and flew over the ground that was being prepared for the vertical assembly building…and then, still staying in the helicopter, flew out and saw a Polaris [launching]… We [flew] in the helicopter with Senator Smathers and with an admiral [Gallatin] whose name escapes me at the moment. It was a half-an-hour flight out, a half back…[so we had ample time to chat.] That was on a Saturday, and…he was shot the following Friday. And by the following Monday, I guess it was, the very same plane [that brought him to the Cape] was flying over the cemetery, Arlington Cemetery, where he was buried. All in a very short period of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something like that can happen just so fast and unexpected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very unfortunate. Very."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 50.17045338228627, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. He [President Kennedy] said to his friend Senator [George A.] Smathers would probably come with him, senator from Florida, and, \"We'll call you back in half an hour.\" So anyway, this is a model of what he was actually pointing at of the real thing sitting there on the pad. It was a Saturn I. This second stage was going to be used for the first time. It had liquid hydrogen [as a fuel,] which we were going to use for the first time in a Saturn… It was going to put the [heaviest] load in orbit…[up to that time.]\\n\\n So anyway, we showed [the President the vehicle. This is Wernher von Braun in the photograph, along with the President and myself. Then] we got in his helicopter and flew over the ground that was being prepared for the vertical assembly building…and then, still staying in the helicopter, flew out and saw a Polaris [launching]… We [flew] in the helicopter with Senator Smathers and with an admiral [Gallatin] whose name escapes me at the moment. It was a half-an-hour flight out, a half back…[so we had ample time to chat.] That was on a Saturday, and…he was shot the following Friday. And by the following Monday, I guess it was, the very same plane [that brought him to the Cape] was flying over the cemetery, Arlington Cemetery, where he was buried. All in a very short period of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something like that can happen just so fast and unexpected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very unfortunate. Very."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see. How have we done on this list?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doing pretty well. We're a good ways through. Just a few more questions, and we should tie off in some pretty good time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 55.7449482025403, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very unfortunate. Very."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see. How have we done on this list?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Doing pretty well. We're a good ways through. Just a few more questions, and we should tie off in some pretty good time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess the next question is, you talked about how you had then resigned from NASA and you had initially said, and even then you repeated that when you'd come on it was for a short-term job and ended up being long term. What had prompted you to stick with it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.1494437922142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. And I think as we've been going along in time, there have been more and more uses for space activity. When we first started remote sensing, it was first done for reconnaissance, highly secret, and then all of a sudden when we started looking at these images from space, it was obvious that there were other uses than just reconnaissance. But you had to have people become familiar with it in order to use it—geologists and agronomists and all the different disciplines that could make use of space photography. But for a while we couldn't make it available because we weren't even supposed to have it. But then we put up satellites, multispectral kind of satellites for this purpose. We kept having a terrible time getting the money for it, because they'd say, \"Who needs it? If there's a need for it, the money would be there.\" And you'd say, \"But there's no need for it now because people don't even know that such a thing exists.\"\\n\\n We were gradually able to get these satellites out, the ATS [Applications Technology Satellites] satellites, and now it's starting to be big business. You put satellites up and get this data, and you can sell it, to the point where the French are ahead of us on it, you know, for example, selling stuff. I guess it's Motorola [that] has got their system…[in space, a system] that involves sixty-two satellites, all put up there by private money, and that's great because [there’s] a commercial use for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it's pretty hard for me to see the commercial use for having a man in space. Maybe there will be in time. If there could be, say, very special manufacturing which might include pharmaceuticals, there could be the pharmaceutical industry might have an interest in performing certain developments in space, something like that. It's possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even just tourism. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Believe it or not, I've got a student, a thesis student, going to be working on his thesis this fall on this very subject."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really. Interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.721604213571332, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it's pretty hard for me to see the commercial use for having a man in space. Maybe there will be in time. If there could be, say, very special manufacturing which might include pharmaceuticals, there could be the pharmaceutical industry might have an interest in performing certain developments in space, something like that. It's possible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even just tourism. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Believe it or not, I've got a student, a thesis student, going to be working on his thesis this fall on this very subject."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really. Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which I'm going to supervise. Yes. I've told him, at the start, I'm very dubious, but I'll be happy to supervise his thesis and it will be done without prejudice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That should be interesting to see what his arguments are."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.468449126190368, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Believe it or not, I've got a student, a thesis student, going to be working on his thesis this fall on this very subject."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really. Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which I'm going to supervise. Yes. I've told him, at the start, I'm very dubious, but I'll be happy to supervise his thesis and it will be done without prejudice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That should be interesting to see what his arguments are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. If you could take somebody in orbit for $100,000, why, you could probably sell quite a few tickets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure you could. It's all that excitement around it. I know I'd love to go up if I could afford it. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.52049902910041, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which I'm going to supervise. Yes. I've told him, at the start, I'm very dubious, but I'll be happy to supervise his thesis and it will be done without prejudice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That should be interesting to see what his arguments are."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. If you could take somebody in orbit for $100,000, why, you could probably sell quite a few tickets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure you could. It's all that excitement around it. I know I'd love to go up if I could afford it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with NASA, what was your greatest challenge?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.911665587889345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. If you could take somebody in orbit for $100,000, why, you could probably sell quite a few tickets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure you could. It's all that excitement around it. I know I'd love to go up if I could afford it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with NASA, what was your greatest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. You had it on [your list of questions,] too, and I should have thought about…[it so that I could] give you a good answer right now. There certainly were some pretty interesting challenges. But I guess I'd have to say that the Apollo fire was the greatest challenge, dealing with the Apollo fire as…a specific.\\n\\n …[In] a more general…[way], what's the most difficult, I would say…involve[s] people…an attempt to judge whether or not an individual is doing their job properly. In most cases they were, but in some cases questions would arise, and then the issue of how do you determine whether the person should stay in the job or not and if it's [necessary] to make a change, how to make the change without ruining somebody's life. Those kind of issues are pretty tough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very tough. Very tough decisions. And important, too, because it does affect—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 37.67962843098816, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with NASA, what was your greatest challenge?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. You had it on [your list of questions,] too, and I should have thought about…[it so that I could] give you a good answer right now. There certainly were some pretty interesting challenges. But I guess I'd have to say that the Apollo fire was the greatest challenge, dealing with the Apollo fire as…a specific.\\n\\n …[In] a more general…[way], what's the most difficult, I would say…involve[s] people…an attempt to judge whether or not an individual is doing their job properly. In most cases they were, but in some cases questions would arise, and then the issue of how do you determine whether the person should stay in the job or not and if it's [necessary] to make a change, how to make the change without ruining somebody's life. Those kind of issues are pretty tough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very tough. Very tough decisions. And important, too, because it does affect—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you have to, I think, bear in mind that your responsibility to the whole is more important than the individual, yet the individual is very important, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Again a place for balance. In reflection, what would you consider to be your most significant accomplishment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 46.518059791343404, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you have to, I think, bear in mind that your responsibility to the whole is more important than the individual, yet the individual is very important, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Again a place for balance. In reflection, what would you consider to be your most significant accomplishment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At NASA? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or most significant contribution."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 46.13117754593711, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At NASA? [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or most significant contribution."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well…there were a very large number [of projects] in the seven and a half, whatever it was, years I was there, we had a whole bunch of projects, manned projects, Mercury, Gemini, and then the start of Apollo before I left. And then there were [missions] like the Ranger and the Surveyor [and the lunar orbiter to the Moon] and the Mariner going out to the planets, [plus] all the projects that involved [satellites] going in orbit, communication, [weather forecasting,] and various [others]. I think the role I had working with the project teams responsible for all these activities on the one hand and working with Jim Webb and Congress and the OMB [Office of Management and Budget] and so on, on the other, to match up the resources that were available with the projects and to help keep that whole machinery going was my greatest accomplishment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is certainly significant. Not everybody could do that, and not everybody could do it as well as you did."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 9.79865157409, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The scientific community were not very pleased with Apollo, of course, because it looked to them—it's very easy to say, \"Gee, if we only had that money for scientific work that's really important,\" you know, all of that money. People don't realize that the money isn't sitting there ready to be used for something else. I mean, if you cancel Apollo, it didn't mean automatically that any of that money would go into these other projects. But that's the way people tend to look at the budget. They couldn't see any real scientific merit in going. Jerry Wiesner himself had a lot of trouble with that. He was the science advisor to Kennedy, and he kept saying to the President—and I think [he] was right—that the reason for going to the moon was not really for scientific purposes. But as it turned out, there was a lot of scientific value in going to the moon. A lot was accomplished scientifically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. It may have started as more politically oriented, but the scientific return was very good. Are there any areas that we didn't cover?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you did a pretty good job. Let's see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think we covered most everything that I had and certainly have covered quite a bit in your previous two interviews, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There may very well be some overlap."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any last thoughts or anything like that? Of course, if you come up with anything, too, we can always add that in at a later point."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6592769, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Martin Collins is the chief honcho there. So I'd like to think that what you're doing will be done somewhat in collaboration, if you want to call it that, with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We did try and look at what they had, and, of course, they did spend many, many hours with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This book here, to some extent, rests on that. I've told some of these war stories about my meetings with Johnson and other people, sort of interesting stories, and people say, \"Have you ever thought of writing a book?\" So finally I heard of a person who was helping people write their own autobiographies, named Webster Bull, and so I called him on the phone. He came over and I showed him some of the material that I had, and asked him if he'd be interested in working with me on it. Signed a contract to make up to fifty copies. It was rather a specific contract. He took this material I gave him, and we talked some. He sort of took my words but put it in the form of what he thought might make a book. He did it remarkably well, but it didn't satisfy me … So then that got me really going to do a lot of the additional writing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're certainly glad that you did, and I'm sure that your family is glad that you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's about it, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We want to thank you for sharing all this with us. We really appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.843641, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This book here, to some extent, rests on that. I've told some of these war stories about my meetings with Johnson and other people, sort of interesting stories, and people say, \"Have you ever thought of writing a book?\" So finally I heard of a person who was helping people write their own autobiographies, named Webster Bull, and so I called him on the phone. He came over and I showed him some of the material that I had, and asked him if he'd be interested in working with me on it. Signed a contract to make up to fifty copies. It was rather a specific contract. He took this material I gave him, and we talked some. He sort of took my words but put it in the form of what he thought might make a book. He did it remarkably well, but it didn't satisfy me … So then that got me really going to do a lot of the additional writing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We're certainly glad that you did, and I'm sure that your family is glad that you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's about it, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We want to thank you for sharing all this with us. We really appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess I ought to ask you, what are you going to do with all this material?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a very good question. Right now we'll take it back and transcribe it, and again send it to you to let you review."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.04849, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's about it, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We want to thank you for sharing all this with us. We really appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess I ought to ask you, what are you going to do with all this material?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a very good question. Right now we'll take it back and transcribe it, and again send it to you to let you review."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought the first came out very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful. We're glad to hear that. Thank you. It came out well because you spoke so well. We are hoping with this to make it available to the public and hopefully on the Internet, is what we're hoping to do."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess I ought to ask you, what are you going to do with all this material?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a very good question. Right now we'll take it back and transcribe it, and again send it to you to let you review."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought the first came out very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful. We're glad to hear that. Thank you. It came out well because you spoke so well. We are hoping with this to make it available to the public and hopefully on the Internet, is what we're hoping to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the short-term future. We worked last year, part of our project included talking to some Shuttle-Mir participants, and that project is now in the next stages and we're actually working on a web site with that one in particular. So we're seeing how that goes, and we may be able to use that as a stepping board for what we can do with this one, so with this we're talking to more people over a longer period of time. But we're hoping the Shuttle-Mir one will come out this summer, and we'll certainly let you know on that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought the first came out very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful. We're glad to hear that. Thank you. It came out well because you spoke so well. We are hoping with this to make it available to the public and hopefully on the Internet, is what we're hoping to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the short-term future. We worked last year, part of our project included talking to some Shuttle-Mir participants, and that project is now in the next stages and we're actually working on a web site with that one in particular. So we're seeing how that goes, and we may be able to use that as a stepping board for what we can do with this one, so with this we're talking to more people over a longer period of time. But we're hoping the Shuttle-Mir one will come out this summer, and we'll certainly let you know on that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right now these are being taken over to the Scientific and Technical Information Center at JSC, and archived there and processed there and put into the system so that people can have access to them, but we do want to try and get more access. That's the immediate hopes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00502:148", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good. That's a great program. Did [JSC Center Director] George [W. S.] Abbey come up with the idea? How did you happen to do it, do you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "George Abbey came up with the idea, or in talking with people came up with the idea, and thought it was very important, thought there were a lot of important people that we needed to talk to, and started it in late '96, and came up with a list of names. It was him and a couple of other people who came up with a list of the first names that we should talk to, and we're still talking to some of them, and our list is growing. Every time we add a new name and find new information, every time we talk to somebody, we hear something new. So that's wonderful. He's been pleased with it so far."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think now we've talked to—I think it's about eighty or ninety individuals now that we've had a chance to talk with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You've talked with some people at Huntsville?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. We're trying to talk to as many people as we can, and we're going all over the country doing it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 42.719258543002255, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Enjoyed it very much. Some of the things that I did there that I—well, flying a T-38 was very beautiful, because that’s the best airplane that pilots could fly. When an airplane was built and you design it to do something, and whatever work you’ve given it to do, whether it’s haul a payload or something else, you’re taking away from its capability of flying by whatever else you’re causing it to do. If you make it heavy, it won’t do good.\\n\\n Anyway, the T-38, you can’t screw it up. They designed it so you can’t hang anything on it, and it’s just a perfect airplane. Can’t make it heavier or anything. It’s beautiful.\\n\\n Then I got to fly with most all the astronauts through the selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, did you teach the mission specialists [MSs] that came through? Were you an instructor in the T-38 as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I flew with some of the mission specialists, and I did all that until 1989. I had a stroke, and it took me a year to get through that with the medical routine and whatnot, and after that they wouldn’t let me fly without another pilot. So I still flew with the astronaut pilots, but I didn’t fly with MSs after 1990.\\n\\n But up until that time I flew with all of them, and I was also flying the Gulfstreams Transport, and I flew the long-winged B-57. We did a lot of missions, going up to Alaska and down to Panama. Then also flew on a zero-G [gravity] airplane [KC-135]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you fly as a passenger and a pilot on the zero-G?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just flew as the pilot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just as pilot."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 41.910287270002506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I flew with some of the mission specialists, and I did all that until 1989. I had a stroke, and it took me a year to get through that with the medical routine and whatnot, and after that they wouldn’t let me fly without another pilot. So I still flew with the astronaut pilots, but I didn’t fly with MSs after 1990.\\n\\n But up until that time I flew with all of them, and I was also flying the Gulfstreams Transport, and I flew the long-winged B-57. We did a lot of missions, going up to Alaska and down to Panama. Then also flew on a zero-G [gravity] airplane [KC-135]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you fly as a passenger and a pilot on the zero-G?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just flew as the pilot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just as pilot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then after that—I guess this is during the time I was grounded, they asked me to come down and fly a Shuttle simulator, the one over in Building 6, Engineering Building, where they verified the software and then for each mission I’d go up to it and make all the runs. Over the years they made the astronauts do that, and after they did it a hundred times, then it wasn’t fun for them anymore, but it had to be done by somebody. So anyway, that was good. I enjoyed that.\\n\\n Then that got me close enough to the operation of the Shuttle and whatnot. Then later on when they opened the TAL [Transoceanic Abort Landing] sites—they did that after the first accident—and then they’d send an astronaut to get three possible places of landing. They kind of got short on people, so they’d send me in one of them’s place to some of the landings. So I did that a few times. I enjoyed that.\\n\\n I guess that was about the last worthwhile thing I did. The last year or two when I was there, I didn’t do that, but I was still just doing the normal stuff at Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you help support the Approach and Landing Test on the first Shuttle test?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 46.566985855558336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just flew as the pilot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just as pilot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then after that—I guess this is during the time I was grounded, they asked me to come down and fly a Shuttle simulator, the one over in Building 6, Engineering Building, where they verified the software and then for each mission I’d go up to it and make all the runs. Over the years they made the astronauts do that, and after they did it a hundred times, then it wasn’t fun for them anymore, but it had to be done by somebody. So anyway, that was good. I enjoyed that.\\n\\n Then that got me close enough to the operation of the Shuttle and whatnot. Then later on when they opened the TAL [Transoceanic Abort Landing] sites—they did that after the first accident—and then they’d send an astronaut to get three possible places of landing. They kind of got short on people, so they’d send me in one of them’s place to some of the landings. So I did that a few times. I enjoyed that.\\n\\n I guess that was about the last worthwhile thing I did. The last year or two when I was there, I didn’t do that, but I was still just doing the normal stuff at Ellington [Air Force Base, Houston, Texas]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you help support the Approach and Landing Test on the first Shuttle test?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point the Earth Resource Program, I believe, was turned over. The Air Force had had it at one time and then turned it over to NASA. Were you part of that program as well, the Project Airstream?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.629467533664744, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had titles. On the B-57 stuff we had a project pilot, but then I was the older guy, probably with more experience, and I was kind of the lead guy. When we had something new come along, I’d be telling people what to look at or that kind of stuff, so for the airplanes. And then I was an instructor in the T-38, so might be—I can’t remember anything particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Was there a specific airplane you liked flying more than the others?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, definitely T-38. I got checked out—the only four-engine airplane I was ever an aircraft commander on was a Super Guppy, because I was always a fighter pilot. I had never flown in airplanes with a lot of engines before I went to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s quite a unique plane, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was it for you to go from a T-38 to a Super Guppy?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 24.032741704071938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, definitely T-38. I got checked out—the only four-engine airplane I was ever an aircraft commander on was a Super Guppy, because I was always a fighter pilot. I had never flown in airplanes with a lot of engines before I went to NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s quite a unique plane, isn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was it for you to go from a T-38 to a Super Guppy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a different world or a different attitude. It’s just like going from a car to an airplane or from a bicycle to a car or something. Each time I was going somewhere, I knew how long it was going to take me to get there, and then I probably was always trying to get there a little bit quicker in that time, or I knew when it was, so it wasn’t much different, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were at NASA when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident occurred. Was there anything that the Air Ops crew did or you were involved in with part of the investigation afterwards?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 18.92526856007993, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was it for you to go from a T-38 to a Super Guppy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a different world or a different attitude. It’s just like going from a car to an airplane or from a bicycle to a car or something. Each time I was going somewhere, I knew how long it was going to take me to get there, and then I probably was always trying to get there a little bit quicker in that time, or I knew when it was, so it wasn’t much different, really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were at NASA when the [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L] accident occurred. Was there anything that the Air Ops crew did or you were involved in with part of the investigation afterwards?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I was down here at Kennedy [Space Center, Florida]. I flew the Gulfstream down here to haul people, and I was geared up to fly it back after the flight. I don’t remember if we left that day or not, but—no, that’s not true; I guess I was down here later on.\\n\\n The Challenger accident, I was flying the simulator at Barksdale Air Force Base in Shreveport [Louisiana], the zero-G airplane simulator, with an astronaut that was new to Houston. He now works for [United Space Alliance, USA]. He’s their boss."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it [Michael J.] McCulley?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.637844201105915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I wasn’t. I don’t remember at the time being made aware of it at all. Of course, the big thing on Manned Orbiting Laboratory, when we were picked to go on it, we were told it was experiments, but in reality all it was was the Air Force had satellites with cameras, and someone thought they couldn’t get good enough resolution from control of the vehicle like when you get off to the side, then you have a thrust to come on to bring it back. Somebody was convinced that that would ruin the resolution of the pictures, and so we were to be up there to fly it to give better resolution.\\n\\n Of course, the five years that we were on the program or whatnot, they were improving the system all the time, so it wound up, they had a unmanned system that did the job good enough they didn’t need us. That’s why they canceled the program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had worked as part of that security program with the Air Force. Were you involved at all with the Department of Defense projects when you were in the Air Ops part of working with NASA? Nothing that involved you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, [the Air Force] just divorced me completely when I went to Houston, I was assigned to Houston. I was still in the Air Force, but I had no Air Force contacts at all, or any directions from the Air Force."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a totally different type of operation when you went to work with NASA, or was it similar?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, very similar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your office most of the time at Ellington? Did you get space there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.042049112339905, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, [the Air Force] just divorced me completely when I went to Houston, I was assigned to Houston. I was still in the Air Force, but I had no Air Force contacts at all, or any directions from the Air Force."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a totally different type of operation when you went to work with NASA, or was it similar?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, very similar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your office most of the time at Ellington? Did you get space there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you work under Mr. [Joseph S.] Algranti? That was your boss part of that time? The history of the Air Ops Program while you were there is quite extensive, developing all the different types of unique aircraft for NASA. Were you involved with the planning of the Shuttle Training Aircraft, the STA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.157832347044339, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, very similar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was your office most of the time at Ellington? Did you get space there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you work under Mr. [Joseph S.] Algranti? That was your boss part of that time? The history of the Air Ops Program while you were there is quite extensive, developing all the different types of unique aircraft for NASA. Were you involved with the planning of the Shuttle Training Aircraft, the STA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was one of my jobs. I was selected. Warren [J.] North was on Slayton’s staff at the time, and he was assigned to pick the airplanes which would be just fine to make a Shuttle out of. Anyway, I was picked, and I went in and flew three different airplanes to decide which one would be a good Shuttle training airplane. I evaluated each one of them, wrote up a report, and then suggested that they pick the Grumman airplane, and they did.\\n\\n Then when they came around to fly the airplane, I was supposed to be the project pilot on the STA. Then when it got around to the last part, they took me off and put some other guys on it, so I never did fly it. I never did fly the STA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about the carrier aircraft? Did you fly the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.397591496715933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you work under Mr. [Joseph S.] Algranti? That was your boss part of that time? The history of the Air Ops Program while you were there is quite extensive, developing all the different types of unique aircraft for NASA. Were you involved with the planning of the Shuttle Training Aircraft, the STA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was one of my jobs. I was selected. Warren [J.] North was on Slayton’s staff at the time, and he was assigned to pick the airplanes which would be just fine to make a Shuttle out of. Anyway, I was picked, and I went in and flew three different airplanes to decide which one would be a good Shuttle training airplane. I evaluated each one of them, wrote up a report, and then suggested that they pick the Grumman airplane, and they did.\\n\\n Then when they came around to fly the airplane, I was supposed to be the project pilot on the STA. Then when it got around to the last part, they took me off and put some other guys on it, so I never did fly it. I never did fly the STA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about the carrier aircraft? Did you fly the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a mighty big plane, isn’t it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.775101663017702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was one of my jobs. I was selected. Warren [J.] North was on Slayton’s staff at the time, and he was assigned to pick the airplanes which would be just fine to make a Shuttle out of. Anyway, I was picked, and I went in and flew three different airplanes to decide which one would be a good Shuttle training airplane. I evaluated each one of them, wrote up a report, and then suggested that they pick the Grumman airplane, and they did.\\n\\n Then when they came around to fly the airplane, I was supposed to be the project pilot on the STA. Then when it got around to the last part, they took me off and put some other guys on it, so I never did fly it. I never did fly the STA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about the carrier aircraft? Did you fly the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a mighty big plane, isn’t it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you decide that you were ready to leave NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.194557403353002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a mighty big plane, isn’t it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you decide that you were ready to leave NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, about the time I left. Several people I had noticed when they got old they sort of didn’t fit with other people anymore, and then that appeared to me that I had gotten to be one of those. It was kind of hard for me to push myself to be one of the group or whatever. Anyway, I came to the conclusion that I should be leaving. I don’t think Jeanne wanted me to retire at the time I did, but I think I was passing seventy, and I knew that I should."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you still flying now?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.793833000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, about the time I left. Several people I had noticed when they got old they sort of didn’t fit with other people anymore, and then that appeared to me that I had gotten to be one of those. It was kind of hard for me to push myself to be one of the group or whatever. Anyway, I came to the conclusion that I should be leaving. I don’t think Jeanne wanted me to retire at the time I did, but I think I was passing seventy, and I knew that I should."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are you still flying now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It’s a little airplane. I don’t fly it enough, but I got spoiled all those years that somebody else paid for everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m going to interrupt. Did you tell them that you fly for Angel Flight?\n\nSay again?\n\nAngel Flight?\n\nYes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about Angel Flight."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.700000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jeanne, is there anything else you can think of he didn’t add?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. Did he talk about the B-57 a lot and the Guppy?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He did something helicopter flying. He didn’t talk about that, but George [W. S. Abbey] comes in on that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about the helicopter flying? Was that different for you to fly?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00116:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 13.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. Did he talk about the B-57 a lot and the Guppy?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He did something helicopter flying. He didn’t talk about that, but George [W. S. Abbey] comes in on that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to talk about the helicopter flying? Was that different for you to fly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I will tell you one thing, and then I’m going to get out of here, is the T-38, he’s one of the few people or the only one that dead-stick landed the T-38. I don’t know if that’s—the pilots talk about that. That’s a pilot thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was the landing for the T-38 dead stick? Was that there at Ellington?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.409020935572244, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was kind of neat, but we had a very unfortunate incident with a friend of mine in Mombasa where she went off on her own and she was raped. And it was awful. It was awful. And my mother, so I'm part of all this, this friend of mine was very close to me. And so I wanted to be with her and my mother wanted me to come home right away. And I said, no, Mom, I had, I think I had four months to go. I said, no, I have to finish my service. This is what I'm committed to. So we had a little bit of a falling out and a little bit of falling out when I got home. But you could understand from a parent's perspective why that would be. And the friend of mine that this happened to was, was not very smart. I mean, she shouldn't have gone off on her own. So there was some things there that, you had to be careful, be careful as a single woman as you do in most third world countries."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, again, I don't think it was a surprise. I think the location was probably a surprise. And I think that, you know, where are you going? Where is that? How far is that? You know, what's that like? Um, it was a very educational opportunity not only for me, but for my community and the people I was associated with, because I wrote lots and lots of letters of which my mother saved every single one of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very cool."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was really teaching them about this, you know, about Africa and vice versa. One of the things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The third goal of Peace Corps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.22298588557341, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So those were some of the things that they thought were a little bit odd and a little bit foreign. And the other thing was we used to give each other haircuts, and that was like a big day at lunchtime. So at lunchtime the kids. And of course the kids, when I first got there, they all looked the same. You know, they all kind of, they were wearing, they had uniforms. The man who started the school wanted the kids to have uniforms like the other schools. And so they all kind of had, you know, real, real short hair. And it was hard to tell, even the boys and the girls, except for the dresses and the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they couldn't understand how our hair would grow. And so they would take samples of it and hold it. And that was like a big deal. Every time somebody was getting a haircut, they'd all get in the circle and watch. I want to collect this hair. And one of my colleagues had blond hair and they thought that was really, really odd. You know, this, this, this different color hair. So, um, but it was a very, very positive. It was a very positive experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very positive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was training like for you? What did you go through for training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.247762095081566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they couldn't understand how our hair would grow. And so they would take samples of it and hold it. And that was like a big deal. Every time somebody was getting a haircut, they'd all get in the circle and watch. I want to collect this hair. And one of my colleagues had blond hair and they thought that was really, really odd. You know, this, this, this different color hair. So, um, but it was a very, very positive. It was a very positive experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very positive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was training like for you? What did you go through for training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Training was quite good. It was quite extensive. We spent, I think it was. I think it was, I don't, can't remember if it was four or six weeks at George Peabody College in Nashville, Tennessee, which now is part of Vanderbilt. But at the time it's where all the assessments came out for special education, the George Peabody assessments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was the five of you who ended up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.275291216757294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's very positive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was training like for you? What did you go through for training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Training was quite good. It was quite extensive. We spent, I think it was. I think it was, I don't, can't remember if it was four or six weeks at George Peabody College in Nashville, Tennessee, which now is part of Vanderbilt. But at the time it's where all the assessments came out for special education, the George Peabody assessments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was the five of you who ended up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, actually it was the whole group. It was the five of us, plus most of them were education or ag volunteers. Mostly education, mostly math. Most, mostly math and science teachers. But they had it at George Peabody. And I mean, I was thrilled because it was just such a cool school. And we got some really neat experiences, you know, in terms of practicals and things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How big was your group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.735240385242026, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we were always kind of doing a little bit of special program off to the side a little bit. But I think the training was good. I think we, um, I felt that the special education aspect was new. I think it was a new program for the Peace Corps. So I think they invested some time into that. I do remember the vaccinations we had to get, and my roommate had a huge reaction because they were using duck embryo for the first time and she passed out and I didn't know what to do. And it was, you know, so I was a little concerned with what was that vaccination and why didn't they check on that a little bit more before we, before we got that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But so we had the training there and then we got over to Kenya and we had another, I think it was another three weeks at Kenya Science Teachers College. And that was mostly language. That was really the culture and the language. And when I got there to Kenya, I got horrible dysentery. And I don't even remember the first three days because all I did was throw up and poop for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, ugh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was terrible. It was. And I thought I was dying. I just wanted to go home. So the very first, like it was probably like the first week there I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Welcome to Kenya."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.594711539157807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But so we had the training there and then we got over to Kenya and we had another, I think it was another three weeks at Kenya Science Teachers College. And that was mostly language. That was really the culture and the language. And when I got there to Kenya, I got horrible dysentery. And I don't even remember the first three days because all I did was throw up and poop for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, ugh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was terrible. It was. And I thought I was dying. I just wanted to go home. So the very first, like it was probably like the first week there I don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Welcome to Kenya."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, I couldn't, I, I don't even remember. And I remember being dropped off, um, at this little flat. We didn't live with families, those of us that were part of the school. We lived in this little complex. And I remember I had this trunk that I brought when I was at the, um, at the airport. I had a backpack and it was an old Boy Scout backpack and it was packed. And I had a trunk that I brought. And I remember going to take the backpack off to weigh it. And I fell. And I was, I couldn't get up it was so heavy. And the thing was moving underneath and it was tickling me. I was laughing and I could not get up, I remember. And I didn't know anybody at the time, but people remember that at the airport there was this woman laying there laughing.\n\nAnd then I remember they dropped me off at this little flat and they put my, you know, my backpack and my trunk down. And there I was by myself. And outside there was this big Maasai warrior guard, you know, that walked around the complex. And I thought, what the heck am I doing? You know, it was a little bit, a little bit unnerving because you were by yourself, you know, it wasn't like you were with a family and all of a sudden, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So all the 20 some odd that were in your group were all had their own little flat?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.610754986614577, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, I couldn't, I, I don't even remember. And I remember being dropped off, um, at this little flat. We didn't live with families, those of us that were part of the school. We lived in this little complex. And I remember I had this trunk that I brought when I was at the, um, at the airport. I had a backpack and it was an old Boy Scout backpack and it was packed. And I had a trunk that I brought. And I remember going to take the backpack off to weigh it. And I fell. And I was, I couldn't get up it was so heavy. And the thing was moving underneath and it was tickling me. I was laughing and I could not get up, I remember. And I didn't know anybody at the time, but people remember that at the airport there was this woman laying there laughing.\n\nAnd then I remember they dropped me off at this little flat and they put my, you know, my backpack and my trunk down. And there I was by myself. And outside there was this big Maasai warrior guard, you know, that walked around the complex. And I thought, what the heck am I doing? You know, it was a little bit, a little bit unnerving because you were by yourself, you know, it wasn't like you were with a family and all of a sudden, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So all the 20 some odd that were in your group were all had their own little flat?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. That, the group, the teachers all went up country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They all went up country and they either had housing at the school or they stayed with a family. So they had the typical Peace Corps experience, because this was outside of Nairobi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was your five that were the special?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.789727762905084, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. That, the group, the teachers all went up country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They all went up country and they either had housing at the school or they stayed with a family. So they had the typical Peace Corps experience, because this was outside of Nairobi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was your five that were the special?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, we all weren't there. Three. There were, there were the three of us that were at, we had to choose the school. And once we chose that school, we lived in this flat. There were probably about 12 units near the school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was after the language training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.099697514338983, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They all went up country and they either had housing at the school or they stayed with a family. So they had the typical Peace Corps experience, because this was outside of Nairobi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was your five that were the special?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, we all weren't there. Three. There were, there were the three of us that were at, we had to choose the school. And once we chose that school, we lived in this flat. There were probably about 12 units near the school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was after the language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That's, that's where I was a little confused."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.332997238154425, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, we all weren't there. Three. There were, there were the three of us that were at, we had to choose the school. And once we chose that school, we lived in this flat. There were probably about 12 units near the school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this was after the language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That's, that's where I was a little confused."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was after, after the, after the language training and after the, that was the first days, you know, when you're kind of on your own. But the training I thought was, um, was worthwhile. And I think they, I think they did a good job of, of kind of keeping us together as a group and also kind of giving us, you know, we did a lot of Swahili training and we did a lot of cultural training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Swahili was the."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.481108042393805, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. That's, that's where I was a little confused."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was after, after the, after the language training and after the, that was the first days, you know, when you're kind of on your own. But the training I thought was, um, was worthwhile. And I think they, I think they did a good job of, of kind of keeping us together as a group and also kind of giving us, you know, we did a lot of Swahili training and we did a lot of cultural training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Swahili was the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they spoke English because it was a British colony. So it wasn't like you had to speak, you know. But the kids all knew Swahili. And there are about 42, I think, tribal languages. So most of these kids could speak other languages, but most people could speak Swahili. So you really had to know Swahili and English, because a lot of people spoke English as well. So it was kind of a combination. But the interesting thing was that the, um, the assessments and all when we got to the school, there wasn't anything. So all of us said, you know, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here's the kids."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.756786713770895, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was after, after the, after the language training and after the, that was the first days, you know, when you're kind of on your own. But the training I thought was, um, was worthwhile. And I think they, I think they did a good job of, of kind of keeping us together as a group and also kind of giving us, you know, we did a lot of Swahili training and we did a lot of cultural training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Swahili was the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they spoke English because it was a British colony. So it wasn't like you had to speak, you know. But the kids all knew Swahili. And there are about 42, I think, tribal languages. So most of these kids could speak other languages, but most people could speak Swahili. So you really had to know Swahili and English, because a lot of people spoke English as well. So it was kind of a combination. But the interesting thing was that the, um, the assessments and all when we got to the school, there wasn't anything. So all of us said, you know, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here's the kids."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right. And you know, you know of other assessments and personality. But, but none of that had any significance. And we took, we all brought all that not thinking. So we're saying, okay, if the kid had to identify, is this a television? Well, they wouldn't know, you know. So we, actually one of the side things that we'd do, one the fun things was we developed our own assessments based on Swahili, which was kind of fun, you know, where we tried to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More culturally sensitive."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 14.174207459745439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they spoke English because it was a British colony. So it wasn't like you had to speak, you know. But the kids all knew Swahili. And there are about 42, I think, tribal languages. So most of these kids could speak other languages, but most people could speak Swahili. So you really had to know Swahili and English, because a lot of people spoke English as well. So it was kind of a combination. But the interesting thing was that the, um, the assessments and all when we got to the school, there wasn't anything. So all of us said, you know, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here's the kids."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right. And you know, you know of other assessments and personality. But, but none of that had any significance. And we took, we all brought all that not thinking. So we're saying, okay, if the kid had to identify, is this a television? Well, they wouldn't know, you know. So we, actually one of the side things that we'd do, one the fun things was we developed our own assessments based on Swahili, which was kind of fun, you know, where we tried to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More culturally sensitive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we kind of tried to, um, and it was, uh, it was a real mix. It wasn't like one, one identification or category. You know, we had one child that was, you know, quite, quite visually impaired. Um. And we had, like I said, we had Ugandan crisis kids. We had kids that, that, um, mentally, you know, weren't, weren't up to, you know, developmentally delayed. Didn't have a lot of physically handicapped kids because, again, the site that we were at wasn't, you know, it wasn't set up for that. It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, did you have a specific counterpart that you worked with or was there a group of locals that were?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.989647096091204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there's a lot of them around. And so this school was kind of like that. But he also had funding, he had some money, and he also wanted to engage the group of parents in this whole effort. So he was more. And of course, Kristina Kenyatta was involved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you next to us, was whether you worked directly with Kristina Kenyatta."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did some with her. I mean, she was, you know, she wanted us to create, part of our goal was to create a curriculum and to create a process and assessments around all of this. We also worked with Eunice Kennedy Shriver. We started, I started a Special Olympics chapter, which was really cool. I mean, I never would've been able to do that. I mean, she actually came over to Kenya."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we started the chapter, so that was really cool. That was really cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had Sargent passed away by then?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.917555074753512, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was really, you know, for, for a project, you know, you couldn't, I couldn't touch anything like that. And to be at that kind of beginning ground level. And the school had since, you know, evolved and turned into probably 100 schools across, across the, across the country, you know, just in terms of a similar pattern and, you know, training teachers, etcetera. It was interesting to train the teachers because their educational system, the British system, it was not the Socratic, you know, teaching here. So they wanted, they wanted us to write a book about if the kid did this, like a recipe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And of course, special education isn't like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was very, it was difficult to. First of all, you had to kind of go back and help them understand that, you know, everything doesn't have an answer and everything isn't like a recipe. Um, and so you have to kind of, um, use some of what you know. But then also what, what, what are you faced with at that time?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, because every kid is different and every disability that they're experiencing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.16244618348592, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, again, the woman that this happened to. What, the incident in the?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, with the cab."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I never did. I never did. I don't know why I never did. And I don't know what it was. I just kind of thought, you know, I was just happy to be alive and, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, no, I never did because, you know, I'm just thinking of it now. I should have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any other health scares while you're over there other than the horrible dysentery when you first arrived?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.291606870539912, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I never did. I never did. I don't know why I never did. And I don't know what it was. I just kind of thought, you know, I was just happy to be alive and, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, no, I never did because, you know, I'm just thinking of it now. I should have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any other health scares while you're over there other than the horrible dysentery when you first arrived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not a whole lot. No, no. I had pretty good health while I was there. Um, you know, I was careful with what I ate and I was careful with, with, um, you know, making sure things were washed and stuff. So, no, I mean, occasionally, I'm trying to think. Nothing like, you know, other than maybe an upset stomach once in a while or, you know, like stuff people get, you know, here as well. But nothing very serious. You know, there were people. We had a woman, an older woman, who was diagnosed with cancer, and she had to go home early. And we had a couple of people that got severe cases of malaria. But again, that was stupid. They didn't take the malaria pills. And then when they got home also they had continuing bouts with it.\n\nSo I was pretty good. And then even with the health care, you know, you could go down to the Peace Corps office and you kind of did your own blood work. You know, you prick yourself, you put your thing in, and put it in the. And so you were really the captain of your own health. And they gave us that book, which I think is a wonderful book. I don't know if they still do, Where There Is No Doctor. It's a great book. It's a great book."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I've heard about it but."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.031885453074539, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So what was really cool was having an understanding of the history and understanding so that by the time this election came, you could understand the, the differences. You know, and as I'm talking, the other thing that really, really hit home to me and to this day, every time the American flag goes up, I cry. Because you couldn't talk about politics. You couldn't talk about and you couldn't talk about, you know, you're in a room and you were taught don't say anything because somebody could come in and take you out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So you really didn't have freedom of speech. You didn't talk politics, you didn't talk about what was, you know, who you were for or what you were, you know. So I was very aware of that while I was there. And I came back thinking, wow, we have so many freedoms that just are just so taken for granted. And I get so mad at people when they don't vote. I get so mad and I just realize what that took to get that and the, the freedom of speech. And then the abuse of all of that now, you know, is just, it's, it's. You know, it's one of those things that you just, you don't realize until you don't have it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, you don't realize. And I think that's the Peace Corps experience. I think the Peace Corps experience is we're all touched by how fortunate we are in this country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. I think it makes everybody reflect."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.479872725638376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So you really didn't have freedom of speech. You didn't talk politics, you didn't talk about what was, you know, who you were for or what you were, you know. So I was very aware of that while I was there. And I came back thinking, wow, we have so many freedoms that just are just so taken for granted. And I get so mad at people when they don't vote. I get so mad and I just realize what that took to get that and the, the freedom of speech. And then the abuse of all of that now, you know, is just, it's, it's. You know, it's one of those things that you just, you don't realize until you don't have it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, you don't realize. And I think that's the Peace Corps experience. I think the Peace Corps experience is we're all touched by how fortunate we are in this country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. I think it makes everybody reflect."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it's a big part of, and I think that's the big, the big opportunity with the Peace Corps. I mean, I gained more than I gave. I always say that. It made me the person I am today. And it also has given me and, you know, an incredible perspective around the world and people and I think that's the true. I mean, I was fortunate. There are a lot of people that did not have good experiences, you know, that were volunteers that waited a long time to get posted or were injured. I had a really good friend of mine, she was up in Boston. She had a very strong Boston accent, and they placed her in Mombasa. And she's red haired and freckled. And kwashiorkor is a disease of, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, a nutritional."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.9106621750869355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A nutritional disease. And they thought she had that because she had the red hair and freckles. And they couldn't understand her. They couldn't understand her English because she had the accent. So they, they stoned her. They kept throwing stones at her. And at one point she wore a boubou just to cover herself up. She had a hard time. It was eventually they, they warmed up to her, but it was, you know, um.\n\nAnd then there were people that, you know, came into the Peace Corps because they wanted to travel and they wanted to, you know, kind of take advantage of the system. And, you know, they weren't there for the real work. They were there for a free ride and they were there for the bird watching, you know, see the safaris. And, you know, so I think it's all different, um, different experiences. I feel very, very fortunate to have had a really good experience and to have one that I think was very meaningful. But I also dove into it with two feet and two hands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, you know, I was very committed, very committed. And I had planned on staying a third year, but after this whole thing happened in Mombasa, I had to come home. I couldn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. When, when you were in training, did you live with a family then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we never did. We, in Nashville, we stayed in the dorms and at Kenya Science Teachers College we stayed in the dorms, so we never had that opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you never had the chance?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.45629130565215, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, you know, I was very committed, very committed. And I had planned on staying a third year, but after this whole thing happened in Mombasa, I had to come home. I couldn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. When, when you were in training, did you live with a family then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we never did. We, in Nashville, we stayed in the dorms and at Kenya Science Teachers College we stayed in the dorms, so we never had that opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you never had the chance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That was the one thing I wish we would have had. You know, I had, I did, was very close to my parents in the school. And I was, you know, went to dinner a lot and was at their homes and stuff. So I had the experience there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the homes."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.062545895169055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we never did. We, in Nashville, we stayed in the dorms and at Kenya Science Teachers College we stayed in the dorms, so we never had that opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you never had the chance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. That was the one thing I wish we would have had. You know, I had, I did, was very close to my parents in the school. And I was, you know, went to dinner a lot and was at their homes and stuff. So I had the experience there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the homes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the homes, but not necessarily living in a home and being part of a family. We didn't have that experience, which was a little bit different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was it like for you as it approached time to leave?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.250056660702538, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the homes, but not necessarily living in a home and being part of a family. We didn't have that experience, which was a little bit different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was it like for you as it approached time to leave?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What was really important to me was that I left things in a place where the, the Kenyans could take over. It was very, very important to me. And I didn't want, I wanted to stay another year to ensure all of that. And I had been involved with a number of things. My counterparts were leaving and the friend of mine that had had the unfortunate experience left early. And she was also incredibly committed. Um. And I wanted to stay a little bit longer because everybody was leaving and everybody was leaving. But I also did know that we had done the training and we had left things in a good space. We actually built a building while we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, like a little admin building next to the church. So we had a little office and a bathroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you get the funding?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.944507400780598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What was really important to me was that I left things in a place where the, the Kenyans could take over. It was very, very important to me. And I didn't want, I wanted to stay another year to ensure all of that. And I had been involved with a number of things. My counterparts were leaving and the friend of mine that had had the unfortunate experience left early. And she was also incredibly committed. Um. And I wanted to stay a little bit longer because everybody was leaving and everybody was leaving. But I also did know that we had done the training and we had left things in a good space. We actually built a building while we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, like a little admin building next to the church. So we had a little office and a bathroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you get the funding?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This guy. This guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This same guy?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.526016360616772, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, you know, she was ready. She was ready. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. I wanted to stay a little bit longer, at least six months. But it was also okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was okay to go. It was okay to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was it like when you got home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.880680878761001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we traveled, three of us traveled on the way home to Poland and Russia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we spent about four weeks. And what happened when we were in Poland, uh, my colleagues went on to Ireland, and I was done. It was right before Christmas, and I wanted to go home. And the flights were canceled. And I had sent wires home to let my family know that, you know, the flight was canceled and I would be on another flight, which they never got."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, dear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they were panicked for a week and a half, going back and forth to every flight. I had no idea. You know, I had sent the telegram."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You'd let them know."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.910668900000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I went back and lived in Bethlehem for a while and stayed with my professor and his wife, who had both been volunteers, and did some substitute teaching. And then I did a, um, I taught gifted and talented kids, and I did this whole Africa program that I did on Africa and, you know, all these things I brought back, you know, the instruments and the pottery and all those kinds of things. But it was not, it was, it was very hard. It was very hard. I felt very alone. I didn't think I fit in. I didn't know, um. I knew I wasn't going back, but I didn't seem like I fit in here either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was an adjustment. It was an adjustment. And when I work with younger volunteers now, people going over, I let them know that that's. Now it's a little easier because at least you have some connection and email and, you know, you can use more education going on. But at that time you were completely cut off and people's lives had moved on. And I had missed significant friends' weddings and babies and things like that. So it was, it was, um, it was hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seems like also you had such a responsible job in the Peace Corps and then coming back, you were viewed as an unexperienced beginner."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that would be."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00079:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.61, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yet, you know, you know, there was limited, limited interest. It was limited. And it took me, I finally did end up getting a teaching job up in upstate New York. Um. But it, and I took the experience and did, you know, workshops. I also did a big book drive with the New Jersey Returned Peace Corps Volunteers, and we sent two tons of books to Black South Africa to Chief Luthuli when he was looking for texts. We had to go through the textbooks and make sure there was no, you know, yards and feet and old history and all that kind of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I kept involved with things like that, and I was very committed. I did these Read for Africa read-a-thons where I'd connect the teachers at the school with kids and they had like a pen pal. And they would, kids here would send them their favorite book. And then we raised, they did a read-a-thon. So we raised money to send books to the kids. So things like that. I stayed pretty, pretty engaged and involved in those kinds of projects for quite a long time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For quite a while so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there something you'd like to tell people about Peace Corps or your experience that you think is particularly important for folks to know?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 48.955867727238775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Nobody really knew what to do, and it was sort of invented in real time. If the system had been done as we would do it today, that is, someone from NASA was going to write out the requirements, detailed requirements, they wouldn't have been able to do that. We had one requirement: take man to the Moon and bring him home safely. That was our requirement. Detailed requirements had to come as we better understood [the problems].\\n\\n We were able to make decisions without consulting a lot of people. I remember when Ray Alonzo was responsible for the core-rope memory. He and Hal Laning were the two key people who developed that core-rope memory. I remember Ray stopping me in the hall one time and he said, \"Hey, I've got a great idea of how to communicate with this computer.\" The noun-verb communication, the design of the display panel and the keyboard, he just showed me this. He said, \"What do you think of this?\"\\n\\n And I looked at it and said, \"Well, it sounds good.\"\\n\\n Today you'd have to have a big committee, and they would have to go through every [decision]…\"Have we considered this way of doing it versus that way?\" [To] get forty people in the room and try to get them all to agree on some design. It never would have happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned, or used the term \"handful,\" there were a handful of you [working on the Mars probe]…at MIT [before Apollo]. How many?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No more than five. Less than five."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your communication was continuous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were working in the same building, in the same space, so we didn't have to keep elaborate records or memos. Everybody knew what everybody else was doing. We just did what was necessary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of long hours. Were there a lot of long days or did you try to stay on—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 53.28429747470975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No more than five. Less than five."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your communication was continuous."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were working in the same building, in the same space, so we didn't have to keep elaborate records or memos. Everybody knew what everybody else was doing. We just did what was necessary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of long hours. Were there a lot of long days or did you try to stay on—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a matter of fact, in those days I was very discouraged, because it didn't look [as if] we were [n]ever going to be doing anything except little studies that nobody was going to really fund us to do something real, so it was sort of hard to keep your interests up. We didn't really have much of a schedule. We'd get an idea, we'd work on it. It was kind of depressing, until all of a sudden, wow, we're going to…[the moon]. Then that became even more depressing, because here we were given this enormous job and we didn't know how to do it. [Laughter] And certainly nobody thought that we could do it in the time schedule that [President John F.] Kennedy was talking about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you heard the announcement from him, what were your thoughts when you first heard this, before you found out you were going to be—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.065662415407546, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you together with the rest of your group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, we were all sitting there. Well, when they were in orbit around the Moon on Christmas Eve, it was late in the evening, and I sat in my den [at home], I was on the radio, sort of a talk show, people calling up and asking about—I can't remember a single question they asked, but I do remember that I was on the radio trying to explain what was going on with these guys in lunar orbit. It was Christmas Eve and it was probably midnight, one o'clock in the morning, I was still on the radio. Everybody at the house was asleep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess what a present to you and your whole team to know that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—everything was exactly how you wanted it to be."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.29518046156394, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, we were all sitting there. Well, when they were in orbit around the Moon on Christmas Eve, it was late in the evening, and I sat in my den [at home], I was on the radio, sort of a talk show, people calling up and asking about—I can't remember a single question they asked, but I do remember that I was on the radio trying to explain what was going on with these guys in lunar orbit. It was Christmas Eve and it was probably midnight, one o'clock in the morning, I was still on the radio. Everybody at the house was asleep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess what a present to you and your whole team to know that—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—everything was exactly how you wanted it to be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But then we had the big worry about when it's time to come home, we've got to burn that rocket behind the Moon. We hope it works, because all the anxieties again, if it doesn't, we'll never see them again, or the whole thing could blow up. But, of course, it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More smiles for everybody."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.661311623959932, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—everything was exactly how you wanted it to be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But then we had the big worry about when it's time to come home, we've got to burn that rocket behind the Moon. We hope it works, because all the anxieties again, if it doesn't, we'll never see them again, or the whole thing could blow up. But, of course, it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More smiles for everybody."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I say, that was really the most exciting mission for a lot of us, primarily because nobody had ever been that far away from the Earth before. …[We]'d sent people into Earth orbit, but you'd never sent them out to where they could have a very reasonable probability of becoming a solar satellite and never coming home, ever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you started your project, so many unknowns was the only thing that was known. Everybody was still making decisions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.068124026622147, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But then we had the big worry about when it's time to come home, we've got to burn that rocket behind the Moon. We hope it works, because all the anxieties again, if it doesn't, we'll never see them again, or the whole thing could blow up. But, of course, it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More smiles for everybody."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I say, that was really the most exciting mission for a lot of us, primarily because nobody had ever been that far away from the Earth before. …[We]'d sent people into Earth orbit, but you'd never sent them out to where they could have a very reasonable probability of becoming a solar satellite and never coming home, ever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you started your project, so many unknowns was the only thing that was known. Everybody was still making decisions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a matter of fact, one of the things we didn't know was whether you could land on the Moon without sinking into the dust. There was a great concern. We had someone from NASA explaining to us that the Moon probably had ten feet of dust and you try to land on it, you'd sink in there and you'd never get out. Well, that's a pretty serious thing to worry about. But they were able to—actually, I think they were able to track some of the unmanned landers and actually see them on the Moon, and they weren't buried."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, 8 moved into 9, and more decisions were being made. Tell us how those decisions were affecting what you were doing at the laboratory."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.348401848224253, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. We learned to operate in a big system, and…this was a new experience for the laboratory. They'd never had to do that before. In fact, there were people at MIT who didn't think we ought to be doing that either. We're a research outfit. Why are we involved with all these picayune daily little problems? Fortunately, their voices were not listened to. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were your offices right in the midst of MIT complex?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, we had a special building. We didn't have enough room in the regular laboratory. We had to find a place, and they found a building on Memorial Drive, right on the river, which was actually a warehouse for underwear. [Laughter] And we took over that building and refurbished it, nothing dramatic, we just partitioned it off into useable space and we all lived there. The building is gone now. It's been replaced by expensive condos, highrise condos, that no one could afford to buy anymore. But our building…is gone and the space doesn't exist anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that on Apollo 8 you were here in your home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was that night, yes…\\n\\n I did go to a couple of the launches. Went to the Apollo 11 launch. I think that was the first one I saw. And then I went to Houston for the landing, so I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.498224275804724, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, we had a special building. We didn't have enough room in the regular laboratory. We had to find a place, and they found a building on Memorial Drive, right on the river, which was actually a warehouse for underwear. [Laughter] And we took over that building and refurbished it, nothing dramatic, we just partitioned it off into useable space and we all lived there. The building is gone now. It's been replaced by expensive condos, highrise condos, that no one could afford to buy anymore. But our building…is gone and the space doesn't exist anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that on Apollo 8 you were here in your home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was that night, yes…\\n\\n I did go to a couple of the launches. Went to the Apollo 11 launch. I think that was the first one I saw. And then I went to Houston for the landing, so I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which one, the launch?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Both, you know, because it was kind of the beginning and the middle of that, so—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.414573766535966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd never been to a launch before, and so the whole atmosphere was strange. There were lots of people there, and the best place to be was just standing on the ground, where I took up a spot. I remember when it was all over, the grandstands, there were a bunch of people congregated around one particular person who was in the grandstand. I didn't know who that was, but it was—Carson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Johnny Carson?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Johnny Carson. [Laughter] So the people were more interested in him than they were in the mission. [Laughter] The Vice President was there, Spiro [T.] Agnew, and [it] turned out that Spiro Agnew and I had one thing in common, we both went to the same high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we didn't overlap. He was there and gone by the time I arrived, and, of course, Spiro Agnew left [office] in humiliation. But he made a little speech right after Apollo 11 that NASA was now going to start planning a manned mission to Mars, and I thought, \"Wow! Great.\" And, of course, we didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you there a few days before you came to Houston, or did you come—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 30.962221143148458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was not our problem. We knew how to [use] the software…[for] a docking program. The thing that [NASA] had to worry about was the two vehicles and building a coupling unit… But that wasn't any problem that we could contribute to. We didn't have anything to say about it or worry about it. Whatever they chose, our docking program would be the one you would use, and we've been doing docking for many years. It was not a major problem for us; it was just a general overall sadness that, well, that's it. End of a big era."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As it was announced that Apollo 17 would be the last and then, of course, you had Skylab and ASTP, did you find your responsibilities starting to move to a different direction with MIT?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you mean my particular ones?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, you know…we started to reorganize, and instead of an Apollo group, they talked about a NASA group and somebody to run the NASA group. There was a brief instant there whe[n] I thought, gee, I'd like to have that job. Then I thought, no, I really don't want [to do] that job. I think Bill Tindall said, \"Battin shouldn't do that.\" And I felt very unhappy. Why not? I mean, that looked like a nice promotion. But then Al Hill said—I don't mean to be boastful, but he said, \"You are a great technical contributor. You get ideas. You do things. It would be a waste to have you running a big NASA segment of the laboratory.\" So they made me the associate head of the NASA [programs]… When it happened, I felt disappointed. Then I realized that the last thing I really wanted to do was to be the head of that group, so I was the associate NASA head, and that was [fine]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did teaching enter into your career with MIT? When did that begin?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.859809698443005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. I mean, they all left before they were astronauts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did their roles as astronauts bring them back to MIT at any time during the program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, sure…they all came back. We kept training astronauts throughout [Apollo]—from the very beginning. We didn't do any of the Mercury or Gemini. We didn't have those people [for] training. I do remember we had all of the Mercury 7 astronauts [come] to visit the laboratory on the same day, and that was a circus. [Laughter] Somehow or other they divided everybody who was in the Apollo Program…into seven groups. …Each group would go out to lunch with a particular astronaut, and one of the astronauts didn't finish his sandwich, and so somebody in the group grabbed the sandwich and had it encased in plastic. [Laughter] This is the uneaten sandwich that—I forget who it was. Maybe it was John Glenn's sandwich. But, as I say, it was really a circus.\\n\\n After that, when the Apollo astronauts came, it was pretty routine. Nobody paid much attention."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess in the case of Scott, Aldrin, and Mitchell, they were never far from your class if they were coming back to MIT for training and you were there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you mentioned you continue to teach today. In the same class, or have you added more to your schedule?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.030990700000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, they built a new building, which is 555 Technology Square, where the lab is now. It expanded beyond that, and they acquired another building which is across the street. It's now called the Hill Building. But it still was a short walk to MIT. My relation didn't change. I mean, I continued teaching my course. They wanted to maintain the contact with students. There were always MIT students working at the Draper Laboratory and doing theses at the laboratory, and they wanted that to continue. I was always teaching my course. They wanted that to continue. It was just the administration and removing MIT from any control [over] what the laboratory was going to work on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still do work for the laboratory or did you—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—end that relationship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I retired from the lab in 1987. I told the [MIT] department head, I said, \"Instead of paying [the lab] for my time to teach my course, why don't I just continue teaching…and you pay me instead of them?\" They said, \"Fine.\" [Laughter] So that's the relation I've had ever since. They pay me for roughly 20 percent of a full-time [professor] and I teach [my course in astrodynamics]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still travel and do seminars and symposiums as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.923323000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—end that relationship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I retired from the lab in 1987. I told the [MIT] department head, I said, \"Instead of paying [the lab] for my time to teach my course, why don't I just continue teaching…and you pay me instead of them?\" They said, \"Fine.\" [Laughter] So that's the relation I've had ever since. They pay me for roughly 20 percent of a full-time [professor] and I teach [my course in astrodynamics]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you still travel and do seminars and symposiums as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only under rare circumstances. I did \"A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon\" …but that was paid for by [the AIAA]. But I don't have any travel funds. If I go on a trip, if I go to an international congress, I pay my own way. I don't do any consulting. I don't want to do any consulting. All I want to do is teach my course and the rest of the time do what I want to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A good plan. Good plan. You were recently in Texas for an event at Texas A&M University. Tell us about that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a researcher and a teacher, inventor, creator of all sorts that have impacted history. Did you ever in your wildest ideas as a young boy—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—think that you would be—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no… The only thing I [knew about space] was the Buck Rogers comic strip. Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, I enjoyed that. But I had no idea that we would ever actually do what we did, landing on the Moon. The last thing I would have thought is that I would have had anything to do with it. [Laughter] …But no one, no one planned for that. No one in my generation grew up saying, \"I want to work on space flight,\" because the only thing you could reasonably have said, \"I want to grow up and be an astronomer.\" You would not have been thinking about flying anything. That was just not possible, or if it was possible, you'd have to wait five centuries before you'd ever see it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the systems that you designed, did you have any desire to see how well they worked in the spacecraft? Did you want to be part of the crew?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no… The only thing I [knew about space] was the Buck Rogers comic strip. Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, I enjoyed that. But I had no idea that we would ever actually do what we did, landing on the Moon. The last thing I would have thought is that I would have had anything to do with it. [Laughter] …But no one, no one planned for that. No one in my generation grew up saying, \"I want to work on space flight,\" because the only thing you could reasonably have said, \"I want to grow up and be an astronomer.\" You would not have been thinking about flying anything. That was just not possible, or if it was possible, you'd have to wait five centuries before you'd ever see it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the systems that you designed, did you have any desire to see how well they worked in the spacecraft? Did you want to be part of the crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did I ever want to do it? You mean be on the crew?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I don't even like to ride in roller coasters, much less do that. No, I have never had any ambition at all to ride in the space vehicles. I wouldn't like it even if they could guarantee me a safe return."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly have made such an impact on making sure others have had a safe return, and as we come to a close today, are there other areas, is there any other things that you would like to add here at the end that we haven't had a chance to talk about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did I ever want to do it? You mean be on the crew?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I don't even like to ride in roller coasters, much less do that. No, I have never had any ambition at all to ride in the space vehicles. I wouldn't like it even if they could guarantee me a safe return."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly have made such an impact on making sure others have had a safe return, and as we come to a close today, are there other areas, is there any other things that you would like to add here at the end that we haven't had a chance to talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don't think so. I think I'm all talked out. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I certainly appreciate your time, and I look forward to sending your package to you for your review, and then hearing from you again."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00004:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I don't even like to ride in roller coasters, much less do that. No, I have never had any ambition at all to ride in the space vehicles. I wouldn't like it even if they could guarantee me a safe return."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly have made such an impact on making sure others have had a safe return, and as we come to a close today, are there other areas, is there any other things that you would like to add here at the end that we haven't had a chance to talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don't think so. I think I'm all talked out. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I certainly appreciate your time, and I look forward to sending your package to you for your review, and then hearing from you again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wonder what it's going to look like when I see it in print. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just as wonderful as I heard it. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 85.00251136073143, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, I was born in Illinois in 1943. Two years later, my family moved to Batavia, Illinois, and I went through the entire public school system from kindergarten to senior year of high school; went to Knox College in Galesburg, Illinois for a Master's degree. Then on to the University of Chicago and left with, well, the Bachelor’s degree was from Knox College, the Master’s degree was from the University of Chicago. I left only with a Master’s degree, taught at Wilberforce University, in Wilberforce Ohio, a black college, for two years. Went back to the University of Chicago, finished up everything except for the dissertation. Got married, my wife, Claire, and I moved to Washington, DC. I had a dissertation fellowship that first year, and then got a job with a Congressman elect, Tim L. Hall. I served as a legislative assistant, and during that time finished my PhD. Tim was not re-elected, and in September of 1977 I joined the staff for the Office of Presidential Libraries here in the National Archives Building."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your PhD in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "American History."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your dissertation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dissertation was Black Americans and Haiti, Virgin Islands, Ethiopia, and Liberia, 1929-1936. Essentially, it was a seminar paper; it started as a seminar with Akira Iriye."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] That's so interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 28, "return_to_go": 90.0027904008127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "American History."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your dissertation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dissertation was Black Americans and Haiti, Virgin Islands, Ethiopia, and Liberia, 1929-1936. Essentially, it was a seminar paper; it started as a seminar with Akira Iriye."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] That's so interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then became the all the discarded seminar paper topics, so John Hope Franklin was my real mentor at the University of Chicago. But Akira Iriye was the first reader and John the second."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what positions have you held here at the Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 32.0427734895621, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, in a minor, minor way, the fact that the legislative archives as a separate color code, not blue or not orange since when—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] But what do those colors mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think blue means east side, so when we were talking about the staff who man the research room, I think it's military records have blue and civilian records have orange so that the staff can readily tell which place to put the records are being pulled, and the Center was initially part of one or the other and I basically said, no, we should have our own color. So that's in a very, very minor way. I have an article on using the Congressional Serial Set for the Study of Western History. And in effect that article is something that I pass out periodically to researchers, because if you can understand how the Serial Set can be used for the study of Western history you can understand how the serial set can be used for the study of any aspect of American history, and although in this current day and age, since it was written before computers became the widespread phenomena that they are today, knowing how to use the volume-finding aids was important, and oddly it's still important because, sure, you can Google terms, but if you don’t know what the sum universe is of what there is out there, it's not as good as simply Googling to see what is out here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t mind, that transitions perfectly into my next question, which is, Can you speak to technological changes over time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The computer is clearly the main change. You know, I once remember hearing a discussion, Mel with somebody else. You know, Mel was head of diplomatic records and you know he basically said the day will come when everyone will have a computer on their desk, and somebody else thought that was outrageously fantastic thinking, whereas now the great majority of the people in the agency carry their own computer with them in the form of their telephone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how does that influence your daily activities?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.16391788834827, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The computer is clearly the main change. You know, I once remember hearing a discussion, Mel with somebody else. You know, Mel was head of diplomatic records and you know he basically said the day will come when everyone will have a computer on their desk, and somebody else thought that was outrageously fantastic thinking, whereas now the great majority of the people in the agency carry their own computer with them in the form of their telephone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how does that influence your daily activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Increasingly, being able to find locations through the computer-based location guide becomes increasingly important, and being able to basically Google internal information about particular kinds of records to see what might show up really opens a whole new area. You know the whole notion of Googling is just so phenomenal that today somebody sent an email saying, “I'd like to have the transcripts of Senator Irvin’s Watergate records, and so basically what he was asking for was the 25 or so books of printed hearings that the Irving committee in 1973 or ‘74 held and were published. The organization known as the HathiTrust has put all those volumes online, so it's incredible that I can send an email with a link to the HathiTrust site and say, “Here it is.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More broadly speaking, what other changes have you experienced over time at NARA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think partly in that same focus, there's an effort to do more with less so that subject experts, and to some extent I would classify myself as such, are increasingly less valued in the agency, because the focus is on everyone being their own archivist, online access, direct online access to archival materials, and given the sometimes arcane way that the records are organized, one really needs to understand the preliminary inventories. And George Scaboo was Robert Warner's deputy and his object was a kind of “have gun will travel” approach for archivists. There should be finding aids available for archivists and anyone should be able to use the finding aids. And that may work in theory, but it has limitations in practice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you evaluate the impact of the transition from more specialized experts to everyone being their own archivist?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 34.626575431498075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Increasingly, being able to find locations through the computer-based location guide becomes increasingly important, and being able to basically Google internal information about particular kinds of records to see what might show up really opens a whole new area. You know the whole notion of Googling is just so phenomenal that today somebody sent an email saying, “I'd like to have the transcripts of Senator Irvin’s Watergate records, and so basically what he was asking for was the 25 or so books of printed hearings that the Irving committee in 1973 or ‘74 held and were published. The organization known as the HathiTrust has put all those volumes online, so it's incredible that I can send an email with a link to the HathiTrust site and say, “Here it is.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More broadly speaking, what other changes have you experienced over time at NARA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think partly in that same focus, there's an effort to do more with less so that subject experts, and to some extent I would classify myself as such, are increasingly less valued in the agency, because the focus is on everyone being their own archivist, online access, direct online access to archival materials, and given the sometimes arcane way that the records are organized, one really needs to understand the preliminary inventories. And George Scaboo was Robert Warner's deputy and his object was a kind of “have gun will travel” approach for archivists. There should be finding aids available for archivists and anyone should be able to use the finding aids. And that may work in theory, but it has limitations in practice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you evaluate the impact of the transition from more specialized experts to everyone being their own archivist?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, good and bad. Good in the sense that the technological revolution opens wonderful possibilities, and good in the sense that, if there's basically less money to do more, it's a way that, outwardly, work can be accomplished. I'm not alone in thinking about whether the quality of exchange suffers, but you can't have everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you speak to your interactions with other Federal agencies through the National Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.846945251680005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So, I grew up in the 1950s. I well remember the 1960 election that Richard Nixon lost, so basically Richard Nixon is not a distant historical figure but rather almost a contemporary, and I find it a little bit ironic that I've not only worked with the materials that were seized, the Presidential recording, the Nixon tapes were about to be returned to President Nixon and Congress stepped in and said, no, these will be seized by the Federal Government, so I worked with that collection, primarily with the tapes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you work with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I started in 1977, this would probably be ‘78/’79, so the tapes went through several renderings of what could be released—primarily if it was personal information it was not; and if Nixon is speaking as head of the Republican party, is that a private consideration as opposed to his speaking as president of the United States? So, I find it a little bit ironic that I've ended up working with the White House materials as well as the Congressional materials that it involved the investigation so—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] What was it like to work with those tapes? What were they like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was exhilarating. About that same time the National Archives had listening stations that were set up in room 204 for public hearing of those tapes that had been played in general conversation, those court-related instances."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now are those tapes transferred to the Nixon library now or are they still here?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.496605835200004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If I started in 1977, this would probably be ‘78/’79, so the tapes went through several renderings of what could be released—primarily if it was personal information it was not; and if Nixon is speaking as head of the Republican party, is that a private consideration as opposed to his speaking as president of the United States? So, I find it a little bit ironic that I've ended up working with the White House materials as well as the Congressional materials that it involved the investigation so—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] What was it like to work with those tapes? What were they like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was exhilarating. About that same time the National Archives had listening stations that were set up in room 204 for public hearing of those tapes that had been played in general conversation, those court-related instances."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now are those tapes transferred to the Nixon library now or are they still here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There is still a Nixon tapes project here, but the great bulk of the tapes have now been released to the general public, and I'm not sure whether they're downloadable audio, I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be for the access form of the great bulk of the recordings. One of the highlights of sorts, at least in meeting celebrities, was working ever so briefly with John Dean. You're too young to remember John Dean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't remember him, but I can picture him. I know who John Dean is."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 27.218450928000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was exhilarating. About that same time the National Archives had listening stations that were set up in room 204 for public hearing of those tapes that had been played in general conversation, those court-related instances."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now are those tapes transferred to the Nixon library now or are they still here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There is still a Nixon tapes project here, but the great bulk of the tapes have now been released to the general public, and I'm not sure whether they're downloadable audio, I'm not as knowledgeable as I should be for the access form of the great bulk of the recordings. One of the highlights of sorts, at least in meeting celebrities, was working ever so briefly with John Dean. You're too young to remember John Dean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't remember him, but I can picture him. I know who John Dean is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. So, I get this call one day, “This is John Dean.” The John Dean. There was a lawsuit that he was involved with, furnished some records that he reviewed in the central search room. I remember a colleague basically coming just so that she could pretend to be doing something else just so that she could see who John Dean was. So, I'm not sure whether that answers your questions of working with Nixon-related materials."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess I want to know more specifically about that transition from the Nixon tapes being government property and private to them becoming essentially public domain."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.5659888, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. So, I get this call one day, “This is John Dean.” The John Dean. There was a lawsuit that he was involved with, furnished some records that he reviewed in the central search room. I remember a colleague basically coming just so that she could pretend to be doing something else just so that she could see who John Dean was. So, I'm not sure whether that answers your questions of working with Nixon-related materials."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess I want to know more specifically about that transition from the Nixon tapes being government property and private to them becoming essentially public domain."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well the legislation basically that seized the materials said that it would be the property of the Federal Government, so shortly, some years later, there was the Presidential Materials Act. So Presidential materials from George Washington until that Nixon episode were always considered the private property of the particular President, so the whole notion of Presidential Libraries comes from FDR saying, under the right circumstances, “I donate to people all of these records and things” and that was the beginning of the FDR library, of the Presidential Library system, as Truman was leaving the White House. No, I guess it was as Eisenhower leaving the White House. There was legislation to set up an Office of Presidential Libraries, and it was thought there would be the Truman Library and there would be the Eisenhower Library, and then Herbert Hoover took advantage of the provision to have his Presidential library. So, the Nixon materials were here in Washington. Eventually the Federal Government, the National Archives, reached an agreement with the Nixon foundation that had a research facility and museum in southern California not terribly far from Disneyworld."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[interposing] Disneyland."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Disneyland. Actually, I visited it a couple of years ago with my younger sister and her husband, so basically that entity came under the domain of National Archives, although the Foundation and the Archives continued to have an unsteady relationship, so basically the tapes were seized and the Federal Government opened up the seized materials."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You mentioned a jurisdiction dispute when you were a White House liaison during the Reagan administration. Can you explain what that was?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm very glad that I've had the opportunity to have the career that I have had. As I said, it was the ability to use training in American history with interesting teaching and working with wonderfully intrinsic materials to have an enrichment for myself in terms of fulfillment of my potential, and I do believe in making a contribution both to the people that I’ve worked with and through them, through the greater community. So I realize you’re close to ending, though ironically one of those fortuitous events involved the TV personality Cokie Roberts. So notwithstanding her position, she had simply come into the finding aids room to ask if an archivist with legislative records could come by to talk with her, and I was the one who ambled down—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] I love her books."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, subsequently I was able to put her in touch with other people, the Lincoln project, Kathy Jacob at Radford, Keith Melder, who had done a key paper on one of the women who she later used in her Capital Dames."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great book."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I was taken with her acknowledgment and taken with the acknowledgment of my sister- in-law’s mother, who's a Holocaust survivor who in the preface to her self-published memoir, a promise kept other women in the concentration camp: one of us needs to survive to tell our story. So, in her introduction, in her acknowledgments, you know, Joyce Wagner credited me with doing the first oral history interview that she did in basically opening the floodgates in remembrance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've mentioned a few, including that one, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to share any other interesting or useful anecdotes that may have not come up in my questions."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00049:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, subsequently I was able to put her in touch with other people, the Lincoln project, Kathy Jacob at Radford, Keith Melder, who had done a key paper on one of the women who she later used in her Capital Dames."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great book."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, I was taken with her acknowledgment and taken with the acknowledgment of my sister- in-law’s mother, who's a Holocaust survivor who in the preface to her self-published memoir, a promise kept other women in the concentration camp: one of us needs to survive to tell our story. So, in her introduction, in her acknowledgments, you know, Joyce Wagner credited me with doing the first oral history interview that she did in basically opening the floodgates in remembrance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've mentioned a few, including that one, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to share any other interesting or useful anecdotes that may have not come up in my questions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that since I don't have a list of anecdotes, undoubtedly after this tape is over I'll think, Oh yeah, there was the time that—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] You can always email me, and thank you for sharing the ones that you did. My last question is, what words of wisdom do you have from your time at NARA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 64.92483070399487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, never. I worked for NASA for 33 years and I think SETI was shut out of NASA before I even got there. SETI is not a good way to search for life. Again, the universe is 13 billion years old. We’ve had radio communications for 100 years. That’s 102 versus 109. If this were the length of time that the universe had been around, the time that we’ve had radio is like a micron in that timeline. What are the odds that we’re going to be pointing at the right star at the right time? Is it worth trying? Of course. Is it worth spending billions of dollars? No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the Next Generation Telescope. That’s the one that became the James Webb [Space Telescope]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Sean O’Keefe named it that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Its beginnings were during that time you were at Headquarters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s the time I called John [C.] Mather, the [JWST] project scientist who tells a story of the day he was in his office and he got a phone call from yours truly saying, “Hey, I’ve got a couple hundred thousand dollars leftover end-of-the-year money. Could you start a study at [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland], and get some outside scientists together and look at the possibilities of a Next Generation Space Telescope?”\\n\\n He said, “Yes, I got nothing better to do,” and the rest is history. He tells that story so well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, he actually told it to us in an interview."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 72.13870078221652, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, Sean O’Keefe named it that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Its beginnings were during that time you were at Headquarters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s the time I called John [C.] Mather, the [JWST] project scientist who tells a story of the day he was in his office and he got a phone call from yours truly saying, “Hey, I’ve got a couple hundred thousand dollars leftover end-of-the-year money. Could you start a study at [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland], and get some outside scientists together and look at the possibilities of a Next Generation Space Telescope?”\\n\\n He said, “Yes, I got nothing better to do,” and the rest is history. He tells that story so well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, he actually told it to us in an interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s true, I’m glad I confirmed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there other missions during that two-year period when you were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 67.93188975801834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s the time I called John [C.] Mather, the [JWST] project scientist who tells a story of the day he was in his office and he got a phone call from yours truly saying, “Hey, I’ve got a couple hundred thousand dollars leftover end-of-the-year money. Could you start a study at [NASA] Goddard [Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland], and get some outside scientists together and look at the possibilities of a Next Generation Space Telescope?”\\n\\n He said, “Yes, I got nothing better to do,” and the rest is history. He tells that story so well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, he actually told it to us in an interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s true, I’m glad I confirmed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there other missions during that two-year period when you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We got the Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer [FUSE]. That was just an explorer, but we got that started. We got the Space Interferometry Mission [SIM] going, but it eventually just cost too much money and didn’t compete well. SIRTF [Space Infrared Telescope Facility, now Spitzer Space Telescope] got going very well, it got a lot of technology done.\\n\\n Trying to think of any other missions. NGST [Next Generation Space Telescope] was really the big one. SIRTF was, of course, much closer to launch, but getting it sold to Congress was important, and we did a lot of that groundwork then. Those were the three missions I remember specifically.\\n\\n You can tell somebody’s been around a long time because they still call Spitzer “SIRTF,” or Hubble “Space Telescope.” Or Chandra [X-ray Observatory] I guess it is, it’s AXAF [Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility] to me. GRO [Gamma Ray Observatory] is the Compton [Gamma Ray Observatory]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ll have to forgive me if I call them the wrong things."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 74.36876639779815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s true, I’m glad I confirmed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there other missions during that two-year period when you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We got the Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer [FUSE]. That was just an explorer, but we got that started. We got the Space Interferometry Mission [SIM] going, but it eventually just cost too much money and didn’t compete well. SIRTF [Space Infrared Telescope Facility, now Spitzer Space Telescope] got going very well, it got a lot of technology done.\\n\\n Trying to think of any other missions. NGST [Next Generation Space Telescope] was really the big one. SIRTF was, of course, much closer to launch, but getting it sold to Congress was important, and we did a lot of that groundwork then. Those were the three missions I remember specifically.\\n\\n You can tell somebody’s been around a long time because they still call Spitzer “SIRTF,” or Hubble “Space Telescope.” Or Chandra [X-ray Observatory] I guess it is, it’s AXAF [Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility] to me. GRO [Gamma Ray Observatory] is the Compton [Gamma Ray Observatory]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ll have to forgive me if I call them the wrong things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s all right, it took me a long time to call it Hubble. It was always Space Telescope when I was growing up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1998 you became the Associate Administrator."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 72.63196266422017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We got the Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic Explorer [FUSE]. That was just an explorer, but we got that started. We got the Space Interferometry Mission [SIM] going, but it eventually just cost too much money and didn’t compete well. SIRTF [Space Infrared Telescope Facility, now Spitzer Space Telescope] got going very well, it got a lot of technology done.\\n\\n Trying to think of any other missions. NGST [Next Generation Space Telescope] was really the big one. SIRTF was, of course, much closer to launch, but getting it sold to Congress was important, and we did a lot of that groundwork then. Those were the three missions I remember specifically.\\n\\n You can tell somebody’s been around a long time because they still call Spitzer “SIRTF,” or Hubble “Space Telescope.” Or Chandra [X-ray Observatory] I guess it is, it’s AXAF [Advanced X-ray Astrophysics Facility] to me. GRO [Gamma Ray Observatory] is the Compton [Gamma Ray Observatory]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ll have to forgive me if I call them the wrong things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s all right, it took me a long time to call it Hubble. It was always Space Telescope when I was growing up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1998 you became the Associate Administrator."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Wes Huntress came to me, in August I believe it was, and asked me. He had talked to [NASA Administrator] Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin, and Dan said he would accept me as AA. I said, “Thank you very much, not in a million years.” Then they started doing searches. I saw the kind of people they were talking to, and I asked myself, “Do I really want—?”\\n\\n Wes said, “We’ll expect you to work with them and train them, because you’re the most senior.” It got to me.\\n\\n About September, Labor Day or so, I called up Dan Goldin. He was on the NASA jet going somewhere. I said, “Hey Dan, I’ll do it, I’ll take the job.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What made you change your mind?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 18, "return_to_go": 80.7021807380224, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s all right, it took me a long time to call it Hubble. It was always Space Telescope when I was growing up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1998 you became the Associate Administrator."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Wes Huntress came to me, in August I believe it was, and asked me. He had talked to [NASA Administrator] Dan [Daniel S.] Goldin, and Dan said he would accept me as AA. I said, “Thank you very much, not in a million years.” Then they started doing searches. I saw the kind of people they were talking to, and I asked myself, “Do I really want—?”\\n\\n Wes said, “We’ll expect you to work with them and train them, because you’re the most senior.” It got to me.\\n\\n About September, Labor Day or so, I called up Dan Goldin. He was on the NASA jet going somewhere. I said, “Hey Dan, I’ll do it, I’ll take the job.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What made you change your mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t want to have to train somebody else to do a job I was probably better capable of doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the last interview, you mentioned that one of the first things you did after becoming Associate Administrator was going to [NASA] KSC [Kennedy Space Center, Florida] for the launches of the Mars Climate Orbiter [launched December 1998] and the Mars Polar Lander [launched January 1999]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 49.79221627057735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the library. “What’s a library? What’s a book? Paper? You mean you had books made out of paper?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the technology transfer and the different things that NASA has done for the world. A lot of times people don’t even realize that that technology is thanks to NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hubble—I hope somebody told you about stereotactic breast biopsy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Go ahead and talk about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "People at Goddard could tell you about it, this was back in the mid ’90s. These CCDs for Hubble were found by some doctors to be sensitive to soft X-rays. Before they came out, if you had a tumor or something they had to use an X-ray, which was dangerous of course. Then to do the biopsy they’d have to be very invasive with a scalpel, and you’re in the hospital overnight. I’m talking about 20 years ago.\\n\\n But then the stereotactic system came out. In real time, instead of using X-ray film they could use one of these live X-ray detectors. They could guide in a tiny little needle into the tumor and do the biopsy almost noninvasively. The woman comes in, walks out the same day. It’s just made a huge difference.\\n\\n [Memorial] Sloan Kettering [Cancer Center] was the one that pioneered this up in New York [City, New York]. There are people at Goddard and the Hubble project that are probably still around who could tell you about it, but there’s a bunch of stuff written on it. If you Google Sloan Kettering, CCDs, and stereotactic breast biopsy you could probably find out.\\n\\n Almost nobody knows about that. That came right out of the Hubble CCD program. In fact, it was CCDs made for STIS, the Space Telescope Imaging Spectrograph. The specific CCDs for that instrument—the company that made the CCDs is in California. It spun off into the stereotactic system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like you said, there’s a lot of things like that. It’s interesting when you think about all the advances. Why don’t people know these things?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 66.9459171933811, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then it goes right by them, day after that. They call it the news cycle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about what you feel is the relevance of the Science Mission Directorate. It’s important that NASA continues work in this direction, but why do you feel it’s important? I know it sounds like a simplistic question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s not. It’s especially relevant today because I read a lot of—excuse the expression—crap out in the media about, “Well, we don’t really need the government supporting science because commercial companies, private donors, they love science. They’ll do it if the government doesn’t do it.” What universe do you live in? Last time I checked, people are out for the bloody dollar. They want to make a profit.\\n\\n Hubble is a classic example. Anybody, whether they make $100 million a year or 10 cents a year, can get on the internet and download any picture of the universe ever taken by Hubble for free. Tell me what commercial company is going to invest $10 billion launching a Hubble and then charge nothing for the data. What universe do you live in? That’s not the Donald [J.] Trump America I know.\\n\\n Let me put it this way. If NASA doesn’t do it, nobody’s going to do it. Just not going to happen. That’s not what capitalism is all about. I’m not a communist, capitalism is good for some things. But when it comes to science and art and things that don’t make money, you better have government do it. Just the way I feel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Part of having the government do it is of course it takes funding. You spent some of your time testifying before Congress members and talking to congressional staffers. You had relationships with some of them, like Barbara [A.] Mikulski [senator from Maryland]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Senator Babs, my favorite senator of all time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk about that aspect of your job, about having to prepare to do that, and some of those relationships. Maybe what you could tell someone that had to do that now, especially in the current atmosphere in DC."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 64.9391601238298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You can get Congress to earmark every single year. That’s what JPL did, they lobbied their congressman. The congressman from Texas for some reason who likes Europa missions, [John A. Culberson]—they lobbied him, and he’d throw in $100 million. OMB would zero it out the next year. He’d throw in $100 million, OMB would zero it out. They did that for three years, but it took a lot of work.\\n\\n Yes, you can use Congress, but OMB can make it really difficult for you. If they don’t want to do something—every time there’s a new president, of course things change. For instance, the OMB last year was very pro-Earth science. Now, the current OMB is very anti-Earth science, even though it’s exactly the same people. Isn’t that amazing? They do what they’re told, let’s put it that way. Some of us, when faced with that thing of doing what you’re told, retire. Hint, hint."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much of your time as AA was spent working on things like trying to find the budget?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Too much. Budget and defending programs and fighting for programs was probably at least 50 percent of the job. Maybe 25 percent was working on programs that had problems, and trying to fix them with the right [NASA] Center Director or the right project manager. Maybe about 2 percent or 3 percent was the fun part of looking at what science is coming in, deciding what press conferences to do, doing press conferences, giving public lectures. But as you move up the chain that gets less and less and less of a percentage.\\n\\n I started out as a GS-13. I really started at the bottom, as a staff astronomer. I think I held every job you can hold as a scientist at NASA Headquarters. Except Administrator, but that’s okay, that’s a political appointee job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had the fun jobs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them were fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of them more fun than others."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 72.15462235981087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Too much. Budget and defending programs and fighting for programs was probably at least 50 percent of the job. Maybe 25 percent was working on programs that had problems, and trying to fix them with the right [NASA] Center Director or the right project manager. Maybe about 2 percent or 3 percent was the fun part of looking at what science is coming in, deciding what press conferences to do, doing press conferences, giving public lectures. But as you move up the chain that gets less and less and less of a percentage.\\n\\n I started out as a GS-13. I really started at the bottom, as a staff astronomer. I think I held every job you can hold as a scientist at NASA Headquarters. Except Administrator, but that’s okay, that’s a political appointee job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had the fun jobs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them were fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of them more fun than others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The two Mars crashes weren’t fun, but the seven-in-a-row successes were fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You spent a lot of your time explaining when bad things happened."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 17, "return_to_go": 75.72735817756764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them were fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of them more fun than others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The two Mars crashes weren’t fun, but the seven-in-a-row successes were fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You spent a lot of your time explaining when bad things happened."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, it’s amazing how your bosses disappear during spherical aberration, yes. I was only 35, 40 years old. In 1990 on the day for the [Hubble] spherical aberration press conference, I was given the honor of telling the American people why we wouldn’t be delivering the science. One of my bosses was in Japan, I don’t know where the other one was. Yes, I’ll never forget that day because it’s like explaining to the press when you stop beating your wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk about that day for just a minute."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 81.62569760295285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Never."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was the beginning of repairing any of the satellites."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beginning and the end. Hubble. A lot of people at NASA had this idea, “Oh, now that we’ve done it for Hubble, we can do it for all these other satellites. Let’s spend billions of dollars on satellite repair.” People have to remember that Hubble was designed from day one to be worked on by astronauts on the Space Shuttle. There are two problems with going off to do it on other things now. One, there’s no Shuttle, and two, they weren’t built to be repaired in space. Other than that, have a great day. But there are people out there that talk about it all the time. “Oh yes, satellite repair.” Right, okay, good luck with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was tough getting that last repair done too, as far as getting that approved."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh God, yes. Sean O’Keefe—I won’t talk about that. Talk about foot in mouth disease. “I’m the Administrator, I’m going to cancel the last servicing mission.” Yes, good luck with that, Sean. We were very proud to support him on that because we all knew how far that would get. It’s like going up to a panda bear at the Washington Zoo [National Zoological Park, Washington, DC] and punching him in the nose. How’s the public going to take that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a good analogy."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 89.39901312529435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Charlie Bolden. Charlie and I got along quite well, despite his deputy always trying to undercut me in front of Charlie. Charlie was the pilot of my Hubble [launch] mission [STS-31], so we knew each other from back in 1990. We’re good old buddies, Hubble guys. Hubble guys stick together. Thank God he was a Hubble guy, considering what that woman tried to do to me.\\n\\n We got along quite well. We worked very well on the Mars Program, working with ESA. He loved the idea of getting half our missions paid for by the Europeans. That gave him a lot to brag about to Congress. What he didn’t know was that a certain woman was undercutting us to a certain guy at OMB, to the point where it all fell apart.\\n\\n Charlie and I still reminisce about those days when I see him at Mars launches. I went up to the MAVEN launch about two years ago and Charlie and I were reminiscing about it then. He was at OSIRIS too, I ran into him at the OSIRIS launch. I still go up to Kennedy occasionally for launches, or just watch them go up here. KSC is due north of here, so we can watch. I’ll be watching TV at night and saying, “Barbara [spouse], let’s go outside, there’s a launch,” because there’s a big flame out the window here going up into the sky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That’s a nice view."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s only 60 miles as the crow flies. It’s 100 miles as the car drives, but it’s 60 miles direct line of sight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice way to retire and still see what’s happening."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, about every two weeks we see a launch. They’re especially good at night because they really light up the north sky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Charlie of course, like you, believes in involving the public and talking with kids."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 98.22112569477149, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s only 60 miles as the crow flies. It’s 100 miles as the car drives, but it’s 60 miles direct line of sight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice way to retire and still see what’s happening."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, about every two weeks we see a launch. They’re especially good at night because they really light up the north sky."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Charlie of course, like you, believes in involving the public and talking with kids."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, he loved kids. Charlie would cry at the drop of a hat. To me that’s good, I don’t care about the male crap. He was just an honest guy. The way he was treated by his deputy incensed so many of us. The other AAs, we all said, “We can’t wait till she leaves because we’ll have a big party for her the day after she leaves.” Which I believe they did. She was not liked. She was not liked in that organization, because everybody loved Charlie. Everybody loved Charlie, because he was just a human nice guy. Just a really nice guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that Astrobiology Institute that Dan Goldin asked you to start. Do you want to talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.753609412712002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Plus, one thing we discovered—and you’re probably like this in Texas. Things here grow. You see those two palm trees there [pointing]? We planted those. They were Charlie Brown [short] palm trees, three feet tall. I planted them four years ago. Look, that’s four years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have that issue, too. We always say if we left for five years everything would just take over, vines covering everything"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’ve got a mango tree that was like a stick, and it’s now 15 feet tall. That keeps you busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back, in your 2007 NASA at 50 interview—I’m just going to read a little bit about what you said to get your feelings on this now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "God, that was 10 years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it was 10 years ago. You said, “The country is on the verge of a reawakening in the importance of Earth science. People are waking up to the fact that the Earth is changing. Our job is to collect the data and give it to the decision makers.” That’s how you described what NASA’s job was, and that “NASA’s prime role in our society is not to allow what happened to the Romans to happen to America. Instead of looking outward they started looking inward. If America loses its frontiers, we won’t be speaking English.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00894:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 28.615121569680003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’ve got a mango tree that was like a stick, and it’s now 15 feet tall. That keeps you busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back, in your 2007 NASA at 50 interview—I’m just going to read a little bit about what you said to get your feelings on this now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "God, that was 10 years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it was 10 years ago. You said, “The country is on the verge of a reawakening in the importance of Earth science. People are waking up to the fact that the Earth is changing. Our job is to collect the data and give it to the decision makers.” That’s how you described what NASA’s job was, and that “NASA’s prime role in our society is not to allow what happened to the Romans to happen to America. Instead of looking outward they started looking inward. If America loses its frontiers, we won’t be speaking English.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My God, this is prophetic, this is scary. I actually said that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did. I was reading it, and I thought that’s pretty interesting that you mentioned that during this interview. Given the atmosphere we’re in now and the feeling of the current presidential administration on science—you mentioned they’ve cut education, in their proposed budget, they’re cutting a lot out in NASA and science. People are saying they can’t use the term “climate change” anymore. How do you feel we’re going to continue to attract those people to work for NASA, these scientists, these people that can make a difference? Or do we wait four years and hope that it goes away? How do you keep people around for the next four years? You mentioned they were leaving for Silicon Valley."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00904:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 11.463015675012901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, thankfully."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have to assume the communication got better, too, like you found the right people. Speaking to the other members of the team, they each had a counterpart on the other side, and you said yours was actually the Minister of Health."}, {"role": "user", "content": "His counterpart was a lot of people. In a small country like that, you very quickly get to the top, as opposed to NASA, where we have thousands of people. But, yes, the Chief of Mission at the embassy here, the Chilean Embassy, he and I spent a lot of time working together. The Ambassador here was very supportive and very interested in making sure that NASA was involved and supported, and the Minister, as well as Juan Fernando, the head of the Chilean Space Agency, he did everything he could.\\n\\n Our embassy in Santiago was really the star. Those guys were working tirelessly for us to make sure that we had everything we needed when our team hit the ground, and that we were thinking about the right things and meeting the right people, and making sure that when we were doing press events, that they were well handled and professional, and helping us to make sure that we were a success as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While they were there, your team was involved in a couple of press conferences. Were you able to watch those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them. Some of them I was able to listen. Some of them I got feedback afterwards, but they were all very positive, and I was getting stuff near real time from the embassy folks saying, “You guys are doing a great job. Keep it up.” I was watching them from afar to make sure that we were staying on track."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As in all good government work, reports always have to be filed. Did you have to do any specific reporting when this was over, or was it just part of the rest of what you do in this office?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00904:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.583014289, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t get to go to the White House event. They only asked for the people that were down in Chile, and so I didn’t get to go to that. I did get to go to a small reception that Charlie and Lori hosted for us after they returned from the White House, and that’s where Charlie presented me with the medal, an Exceptional Achievement Medal for my involvement, and so did the other team members. The five of us got medals from Charlie. That was pretty neat. Dr. Duncan did a really nice presentation down in our auditorium here that you might want to look at if you haven’t seen it. It was a great summary of all of our activities, and he talked a little bit about his meeting the President. There’s a great picture we tease Mike about where the President’s talking, he’s looking in a different direction, so you can ask him about that when you interview him. What was he looking at out the window?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you the night that they rescued the miners?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t go to the reception. The Ambassador called me, and, unfortunately, I wasn’t able to do it because of a family event, but I was watching it on TV with my family and it was pretty doggone exciting. It was really just heartwarming. It was neat to have played a role in that and to be able to tell people that I played a role in it. It was really rewarding. It was one of the most positive things I’ve done since I’ve been here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a nice thought. J.D. [James D. Polk] mentioned that he felt like they went down representing the government, but they all left as friends. It’s nice to know that you all have developed some great friendships and relationships down there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Our time’s getting close to the end, but I was going to ask Jennifer or Bill if they had a couple of questions. Bill, you have anything?\\n\\n BARRY: No, I think you’ve covered the waterfront pretty much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00904:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.20334921, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t go to the reception. The Ambassador called me, and, unfortunately, I wasn’t able to do it because of a family event, but I was watching it on TV with my family and it was pretty doggone exciting. It was really just heartwarming. It was neat to have played a role in that and to be able to tell people that I played a role in it. It was really rewarding. It was one of the most positive things I’ve done since I’ve been here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s a nice thought. J.D. [James D. Polk] mentioned that he felt like they went down representing the government, but they all left as friends. It’s nice to know that you all have developed some great friendships and relationships down there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Our time’s getting close to the end, but I was going to ask Jennifer or Bill if they had a couple of questions. Bill, you have anything?\\n\\n BARRY: No, I think you’ve covered the waterfront pretty much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can I just add one thing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, please. Yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00904:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.5592769, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Our time’s getting close to the end, but I was going to ask Jennifer or Bill if they had a couple of questions. Bill, you have anything?\\n\\n BARRY: No, I think you’ve covered the waterfront pretty much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can I just add one thing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, please. Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You didn’t really ask me about it, but it really made me feel good about what we were doing—Dr. Duncan can tell you more—but there was discussions about circadian rhythms and the lighting that the folks had down in the mine, and there was some idea that there was better lighting that can be provided to the miners. So a guy who owns a company down in Florida [Lighting Science Group], on his own initiative, developed some lighting and engineered it so that it could be sent down in the Paloma [capsule] to get to the miners.\\n\\n I spent some time working with him on how to get it out of the United States and get it down to the miners. Ultimately, it didn’t get used, but the idea that this guy wanted to contribute it and provide it free of charge to the Chileans, I mean he paid for the design, the development, the shipment, everything, and he just did it out of the goodness of his heart because he wanted to contribute. I thought that was really amazing and a neat thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Al Holland mentioned him as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00904:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.843641, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can I just add one thing?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, please. Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You didn’t really ask me about it, but it really made me feel good about what we were doing—Dr. Duncan can tell you more—but there was discussions about circadian rhythms and the lighting that the folks had down in the mine, and there was some idea that there was better lighting that can be provided to the miners. So a guy who owns a company down in Florida [Lighting Science Group], on his own initiative, developed some lighting and engineered it so that it could be sent down in the Paloma [capsule] to get to the miners.\\n\\n I spent some time working with him on how to get it out of the United States and get it down to the miners. Ultimately, it didn’t get used, but the idea that this guy wanted to contribute it and provide it free of charge to the Chileans, I mean he paid for the design, the development, the shipment, everything, and he just did it out of the goodness of his heart because he wanted to contribute. I thought that was really amazing and a neat thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Al Holland mentioned him as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fred [Maxik]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He talked about the fact that there was that issue with Customs, that he did everything on his own and then it just couldn’t get through, so it was a disappointment. In fact, Al didn’t know if it had actually ever gotten used, so do you know for sure?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00904:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we think they did. I saw the correspondence. It’s hard to know, because they were running in so many different directions, and like I said, the Minister was running the whole thing. It’s a small team, and so it just went into this hole. When I talked to the team afterwards, they were saying they saw some of their recommendations being implemented, so they felt like they had been read by some folks and that actions were taken because of them. I think they were. They just weren’t immediately responded to, but you would expect that with all the stuff they were doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Things did seem to progress a lot faster than was originally estimated. Do you believe that NASA would have been able to stay in for the long commitment if it had lasted another two or three months? Do you think that you’d have been able to sustain that relationship that long if they would have needed you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I was pushing the edge of the envelope on the funding that I had available to support the initiative. We probably would have had to talk some more with folks about it. I think the positive press associated with our involvement would have helped us to overcome that, but you never know. I mentioned we had a lot of congressional inquiries. Well, I always like to think that they were for positive reasons, but sometimes they may not be. They may be for other interests, wanting to understand why we were doing something that maybe necessarily wasn’t our main focus for the agency. So I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s good we didn’t have to think about it, didn’t have to worry about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jennifer, do you have a question?\n\nYou talked about how some other federal agencies didn’t join in, they weren’t as active because of funding issues. Was DoD [Depaertment of Defense] involved, and were you involved working with them? Because obviously they worked in submarines, they worked with people in isolation. Were you working in tandem with them to develop recommendations?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00904:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know. I was pushing the edge of the envelope on the funding that I had available to support the initiative. We probably would have had to talk some more with folks about it. I think the positive press associated with our involvement would have helped us to overcome that, but you never know. I mentioned we had a lot of congressional inquiries. Well, I always like to think that they were for positive reasons, but sometimes they may not be. They may be for other interests, wanting to understand why we were doing something that maybe necessarily wasn’t our main focus for the agency. So I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s good we didn’t have to think about it, didn’t have to worry about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jennifer, do you have a question?\n\nYou talked about how some other federal agencies didn’t join in, they weren’t as active because of funding issues. Was DoD [Depaertment of Defense] involved, and were you involved working with them? Because obviously they worked in submarines, they worked with people in isolation. Were you working in tandem with them to develop recommendations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I wasn’t. I don’t know. You can ask Clint whether he reached out to them. The hub of the wheel was State, and so they were reaching out to us, they were reaching out to DoD, they were reaching out to Geological Survey and these other folks, and we didn’t necessarily come together. It was really through them. I had no direct involvement with DoD. I was aware they were talking to them, and somewhere in my notes I can tell you exactly what they were asking for and who they were talking to, but we didn’t have a direct involvement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that Chile reached out to you because the agency had experience with people in isolation, perhaps people under distress. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more in terms of besides being at, say, Space Station or in Skylab, maybe in terms of NEEMO [NASA Extreme Environment Mission Operations], maybe some work in Antarctica? Can you elaborate on some of those different fields you may have tapped into?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00904:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jennifer, do you have a question?\n\nYou talked about how some other federal agencies didn’t join in, they weren’t as active because of funding issues. Was DoD [Depaertment of Defense] involved, and were you involved working with them? Because obviously they worked in submarines, they worked with people in isolation. Were you working in tandem with them to develop recommendations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I wasn’t. I don’t know. You can ask Clint whether he reached out to them. The hub of the wheel was State, and so they were reaching out to us, they were reaching out to DoD, they were reaching out to Geological Survey and these other folks, and we didn’t necessarily come together. It was really through them. I had no direct involvement with DoD. I was aware they were talking to them, and somewhere in my notes I can tell you exactly what they were asking for and who they were talking to, but we didn’t have a direct involvement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that Chile reached out to you because the agency had experience with people in isolation, perhaps people under distress. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more in terms of besides being at, say, Space Station or in Skylab, maybe in terms of NEEMO [NASA Extreme Environment Mission Operations], maybe some work in Antarctica? Can you elaborate on some of those different fields you may have tapped into?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably Dr. Duncan would be a better person to ask that question to. I think the Chileans were aware of our expertise and that’s why they came to us, but Dr. Duncan’s probably the better person to talk to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rebecca had just mentioned that they were in the country for a limited time when they went down. Was that primarily because of funding issues, or was there a specific reason they were only there for a short time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 42.98783936001259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think a couple of nurses had been used as an experiment sometime before that. I looked that up, and that was my only—yes, women have been. But then, of course, I’m not sure this is true, but it was a little hint that, “Yeah, but they didn’t do very well.” Hey, you know? So that was one of the things I had to overcome.\\n\\n Then traveling was something else. “Oh, we don’t think you should travel.” I’ll tell you, that was still happening thirty years later. We were doing another test when I was in Life Sciences. I needed to go to Guadalupe, the Island of Guadalupe, and they said, “Oh, well, you better not go there. It’s not safe for women.”\\n\\n I said, “I’ll bet you half the population is women. What do you think?”\\n\\n Things like that, so you just had to—you know. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to work through that system, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did go. I did go. See, that was one of the things about me. I’m not a sweet, little, retiring person, because I would never have survived at least the first ten, fifteen years. It’s much better now, I think, but I still think there’s a long ways to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you came to the Manned Spacecraft Center [Houston, Texas] [MSC], you worked a little while at Patrick Air Force Base [Florida]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a mathematician, yes, as a junior mathematician."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a correct title, or was that just a title to get you in the door."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 39.98648817779177, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did go. I did go. See, that was one of the things about me. I’m not a sweet, little, retiring person, because I would never have survived at least the first ten, fifteen years. It’s much better now, I think, but I still think there’s a long ways to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you came to the Manned Spacecraft Center [Houston, Texas] [MSC], you worked a little while at Patrick Air Force Base [Florida]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a mathematician, yes, as a junior mathematician."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a correct title, or was that just a title to get you in the door."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I didn’t have my degree, and so they did hire—the truth—my dad was Inspector General of Patrick Air Force Base. When I wanted to come home for the summer, he said, “If you want to fly [home],” and, of course, I had a Siamese cat and a cockatiel and everything. “If you want to fly, you’ll have to get a summer job.” Jeanne had never worked before. “If you don’t want to fly, and you don’t want to work, then you can take the bus, and you don’t have to work this summer.”\\n\\n My dad and mom never made me do anything [before], but this was something—okay, I said, “Fine. I’ll work.”\\n\\n So he got me the job at the Tech [technical] lab over here on Patrick, and I really enjoyed it. I loved the work. At the time almost everything was classified. The nose cones, when they would separate—they have all these ballistic cameras [where] the shutters [are] timed, and so it was like solving a puzzle. You would get all these photographs and try to match the different angles of the photographs to the sequence, and so it was solving puzzles, which is my forte, anyway. It’s always been. So I enjoyed that. But I did that for a year, and then I went and finished my degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least it was some exposure to that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 53.61452244748021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Okay, well, now you’ve got to help me. I don’t know where I am."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, tell us about when you said that you interviewed at MSC, so you packed up your stuff and moved to Houston by yourself and began a new career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, [I interviewed at KSC for the job at MSC—that way the MSC group could learn about me without having me travel to Houston prior to their decision], got an apartment and started down there. Right, yes. That was exciting. I enjoyed it. Well, I was an Air Force brat. I was used to moving, so I was always ready to move. “When is it time to move?” you know. So always something different. But I loved it. I was used to walking into schools, “Here I am. I’m new.” [Laughs]\\n\\n So I just walked in, and then they went, “Oh, yeah. What are we going to do with her?” [Laughs] You could just see it, like “Oh, my.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you started there, you mentioned some of those first projects that you had worked, like for Warren North, with Dean Grimm. Tell us about, you know, here space was new, and the nation was caught up in the space race, and you were beginning your whole new life in that, and then you’ve got these very unique projects. Share with us about some of those and about what you did. We have talked to people who were in the middle of them, and so they completely understand it, but then there’s those of us that didn’t watch those very unique ways that you tested some of the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You were too young. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We were listening, but we weren’t involved in the testing of it, so explain that to us. For instance, when you were talking about the Agena."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 47.23695734590958, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I was in the back rooms whenever there would be a problem with an experiment or something. What I would do, I lived right across the street from JSC; I always lived in an apartment very close, because I was always over there at any hour. They would just call you at a minute’s notice or something, and sometimes we had to monitor the temperature when that shield broke away. I think Burt talked about all that. Had to monitor the temperature, and he helped like that, but I could not go out on the floor, so it was always in the background.\\n\\n Mostly the work I did was preparing for the flight. The crew items would be like we talked about having the way to sight on the window, how you did that; procedures for how you tracked landmarks, because I did, I set up a bunch of simulations up at Boeing [Airplane Company]. I did the lunar landmarks, too.\\n\\n They put a big model of the Moon, and then you had a TV camera, and you were flying the LM. This was one of the first early simulations, which later they got very sophisticated. Now they’re extreme. You can hardly tell the difference, that you’re not going to the Moon. But that was one of the very early ones where the TV camera would scan along the craters and things like that. I did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You set those up as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I coordinated the requirements from the crew’s point of view to the contractor developing that, and would go and help fly it originally. Then you schedule some of the crewmen to come up and make sure, and get their input to make sure it was implemented, the changes; things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you fly the simulators as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I got to fly them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And try those procedures out?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 51.37439705101065, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I coordinated the requirements from the crew’s point of view to the contractor developing that, and would go and help fly it originally. Then you schedule some of the crewmen to come up and make sure, and get their input to make sure it was implemented, the changes; things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you fly the simulators as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I got to fly them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And try those procedures out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was never very good with the LM landing, because I wasn’t a pilot, and I didn’t have much practice on that one, because everybody wanted to fly it, and I didn’t have that priority. [Laughs] If [Alan B.] Shepard or somebody came and said, “I’d like to fly it,” well, I had to get out. So, yes, but I enjoyed it. It was lots of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get feedback from the crew about what worked well and what didn’t? Did it come back to you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 57.08266339001183, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I got to fly them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And try those procedures out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was never very good with the LM landing, because I wasn’t a pilot, and I didn’t have much practice on that one, because everybody wanted to fly it, and I didn’t have that priority. [Laughs] If [Alan B.] Shepard or somebody came and said, “I’d like to fly it,” well, I had to get out. So, yes, but I enjoyed it. It was lots of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get feedback from the crew about what worked well and what didn’t? Did it come back to you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. On the things I was working with, that’s what you would actually do. You’d go and work something out and get it set up, and then you’d try to schedule different crewmen to come in and evaluate it, and you’d take their evaluations, and there is where the problem was. You’d have five astronauts flying it, and they’d have five different opinions, and then you would try to stay alive resolving that. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because I’m sure they were all correct in their thoughts, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.221808833864795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I say, it was a jury-rig, but it was different. Well, it’s on the Space Station now, and then the one that Eric and I just did before I left is the flexible shield, which is really great, because that way you put a foam in behind the ceramic, and you can carry it up and deploy it wherever you need it. So that can be used. I don’t know that anyone is using it yet, but that was a good one.\\n\\n The reason that one was such a problem is Boeing came to the lab, a couple of people, and they saw it, and went and patented it. Yes, we fought that for many years. But we knew what we were talking about, so we could take everything they didn’t know to put on it, and we did. [Laughs] Eric and I got the rest of it. Yes, that was a couple of bad things, but that felt like me fighting Goliath."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, I sort of did that my whole career, but, you know, I enjoyed that. I’d go home frustrated, and as I said, just of anger, but no, I enjoy a good fight. I guess that’s the only reason I did survive, because a lot of people wanted to kill me. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think most of it in the end, I think there was mutual respect, I think, at the end. At least, I know the people that would call me the cultist, it was Bob [Robert E.] Bobola and [Clarke] Covington and all of them, they would come over to the lab and have a private meeting and look at all the stuff we’d done. So they really did appreciate it. It was just one more problem they didn’t need. There were so many problems other than those. I wouldn’t want to be a manager of one of those programs. I know; I used to have to go say, “Well, this one you’ve got to listen to.” [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lots of details."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.02423203762755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, I sort of did that my whole career, but, you know, I enjoyed that. I’d go home frustrated, and as I said, just of anger, but no, I enjoy a good fight. I guess that’s the only reason I did survive, because a lot of people wanted to kill me. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think most of it in the end, I think there was mutual respect, I think, at the end. At least, I know the people that would call me the cultist, it was Bob [Robert E.] Bobola and [Clarke] Covington and all of them, they would come over to the lab and have a private meeting and look at all the stuff we’d done. So they really did appreciate it. It was just one more problem they didn’t need. There were so many problems other than those. I wouldn’t want to be a manager of one of those programs. I know; I used to have to go say, “Well, this one you’ve got to listen to.” [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lots of details."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in any way with after [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L accident], looking at anything or any part of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 20.02692448625283, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think most of it in the end, I think there was mutual respect, I think, at the end. At least, I know the people that would call me the cultist, it was Bob [Robert E.] Bobola and [Clarke] Covington and all of them, they would come over to the lab and have a private meeting and look at all the stuff we’d done. So they really did appreciate it. It was just one more problem they didn’t need. There were so many problems other than those. I wouldn’t want to be a manager of one of those programs. I know; I used to have to go say, “Well, this one you’ve got to listen to.” [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lots of details."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in any way with after [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L accident], looking at anything or any part of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just curious."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.141027206947587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved in any way with after [Space Shuttle] Challenger [STS 51-L accident], looking at anything or any part of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was just curious."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By then I was over in Space and Life Sciences. Now, on [Space Shuttle] Columbia [STS-107 accident], the guys that worked in my lab, Eric Christiansen and Justin [H.] Kerr—years before that when I first started my lab, I was sitting at my computer, and this person walked in. He’s six-foot-three, I think, and I’m looking up, and he’s got this green suit on with the shoulder pads, good-looking kid. He said, “Hi, I’m Justin Kerr, and I’m a co-op, and I want to work in your lab.”\\n\\n I said, “Do you know what you’re talking about?” Because we were very unpopular.\\n\\n He said, “Yep.” So that was so cute. Yes, but he was excellent. I think Justin is going to be head of JSC one of these days. Anyway, but he’s no longer working in hypervelocity, but he did for a long time. He was really good. But with Eric and Justin—and I think Justin just quit working in the hypervelocity about two years ago, so I don’t know if you’ve talked to him at all or anything. Well, he’s just getting married this month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little busy."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.060393973865002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. What they did, Justin did run the program over at San Antonio [Texas] at Southwest Research, where they launched the foam. Those are the people that we had always worked with over there. I don’t know if you remember that. When they were showing that big hole, that was Justin that ran that program, so he was running that. That was an interesting one, but that wasn’t at orbital velocity. That was at a lower velocity, but, still anything moving at those velocities can cause problems.\\n\\n I wish I had thought about my ceramic fabric about hurricanes. That’s what they’re using it for now. They make hurricane drapes, where you would just drape it down. It will stop quite a bit of stuff, yes. You put a little bit of Kevlar in there, which Kevlar is better for lower velocities, because it’s strength, whereas Nextel is a ceramic, where it shocks; it shocks the other. They take those now, and you just unroll it as a thing. Then Eric and I could have had some money, but we didn’t think about that. We were too busy thinking about space. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About space. Important at the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you moved over to Life Sciences, because we had mentioned earlier about the seventies being such a change for the whole NASA culture, they announced that they were going to hire a new group of astronauts and include women and minorities. Did you think about applying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but at that time [it was my age]. Or Al is going to tell you about age; that’s his biggest thing, yes. All the guys that worked for him were younger. [Laughs] Then when John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] flew. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that affected your decision?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.511548859850002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you moved over to Life Sciences, because we had mentioned earlier about the seventies being such a change for the whole NASA culture, they announced that they were going to hire a new group of astronauts and include women and minorities. Did you think about applying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but at that time [it was my age]. Or Al is going to tell you about age; that’s his biggest thing, yes. All the guys that worked for him were younger. [Laughs] Then when John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] flew. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that affected your decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I didn’t. I applied earlier back when no women were. I guess it was a nun and myself that applied. Of course, we were laughed off of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least they remembered that you were there…. What can you tell us that you’d like to tell us about the changes for roles for women from the time that you went to work at MSC to the time you left JSC?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.012832066500001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but at that time [it was my age]. Or Al is going to tell you about age; that’s his biggest thing, yes. All the guys that worked for him were younger. [Laughs] Then when John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] flew. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that affected your decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I didn’t. I applied earlier back when no women were. I guess it was a nun and myself that applied. Of course, we were laughed off of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least they remembered that you were there…. What can you tell us that you’d like to tell us about the changes for roles for women from the time that you went to work at MSC to the time you left JSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they’ve changed. I was so proud when they selected the first women astronauts. I was so pleased. I knew that the time that they did that, they had been ordered to. Well, Dwayne would know the truth about this, but most of the stories that I told, that they had to pick some, and our certain most favorite person, George Abbey, kept not doing it until he had to. But I’m so glad he had to. [Laughs] And I think they were wonderful, every one of them, every one of them that I saw. I didn’t know any of them real well. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the other roles other than the astronauts? You were one of the first female engineers. Did you see more and more start to come in, or was it a slow coming?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.347591185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I didn’t. I applied earlier back when no women were. I guess it was a nun and myself that applied. Of course, we were laughed off of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least they remembered that you were there…. What can you tell us that you’d like to tell us about the changes for roles for women from the time that you went to work at MSC to the time you left JSC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they’ve changed. I was so proud when they selected the first women astronauts. I was so pleased. I knew that the time that they did that, they had been ordered to. Well, Dwayne would know the truth about this, but most of the stories that I told, that they had to pick some, and our certain most favorite person, George Abbey, kept not doing it until he had to. But I’m so glad he had to. [Laughs] And I think they were wonderful, every one of them, every one of them that I saw. I didn’t know any of them real well. …"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the other roles other than the astronauts? You were one of the first female engineers. Did you see more and more start to come in, or was it a slow coming?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, after the first five years, because I kept being told that, “Oh, there was a woman engineer, but they had her in tears the other day, and she quit.”\\n\\n I heard that about three different times, and nobody—I said, “If you hear that, tell me. Let me go talk to them.” I’d say after about five years; I was probably one of the very few for five years, actual engineers. Now, there were some women. Here’s another one I love, and I can’t remember her name. She did the food for all those years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, Rita [M.] Rapp."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00144:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.7065, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did. Oh yes, it did change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is part of NASA history, but it did change."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I watched it change, and it was good. Then, of course, when Carolyn [L. Huntoon] became [Center] Director—of course, that’s a whole ’nother story. She should have still been Director, but somebody got her—George [Abbey]. Anyway, that was good for a while, but it didn’t end up good, because she was being used, I’m sorry to say. But, you know, I think Carolyn was tough enough; she could have handled it. I didn’t get along that well with Carolyn, but that was fine. We were free to argue and discuss.\\n\\n So I’m trying to think what else got my attention. It was actually the nineties before the women started getting management positions, though, wasn’t it? You guys know better than I. I didn’t keep track of the time. I just knew it was evolving; it was changing. I don’t remember, but it was not too long ago. It hasn’t been that long. When they picked the women astronauts, I think that really helped."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Made the biggest—okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think that really helped."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did you decide to leave when you did?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.532067438135428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't think I had a definite career goal. I thought I wanted to obviously work at associated with things from Latin America. It was my major. And so I was aware of the Peace Corps all, since high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How had you become aware?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was a sophomore in high school when the Peace Corps started in '61."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I kept up on the news at that time. I read the newspaper and was very aware of what's going on. So it was something that was of interest to me and I'd already taken Spanish in high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And during college, did you travel? What did you do with your summers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.0356304868171415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was a sophomore in high school when the Peace Corps started in '61."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I kept up on the news at that time. I read the newspaper and was very aware of what's going on. So it was something that was of interest to me and I'd already taken Spanish in high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And during college, did you travel? What did you do with your summers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I worked in the summers, usually away from home. I worked in a camp for handicapped children, and I worked in California one summer. And that's the summer I had seven different summer jobs. Some lasted a day and some lasted a week. The last one I was in a cannery, canning factory, but they kept me on because all the other students had gone back to college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was up in Wisconsin?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.59514498535238, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I kept up on the news at that time. I read the newspaper and was very aware of what's going on. So it was something that was of interest to me and I'd already taken Spanish in high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And during college, did you travel? What did you do with your summers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I worked in the summers, usually away from home. I worked in a camp for handicapped children, and I worked in California one summer. And that's the summer I had seven different summer jobs. Some lasted a day and some lasted a week. The last one I was in a cannery, canning factory, but they kept me on because all the other students had gone back to college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was up in Wisconsin?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Wisconsin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Any international travel up to that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9946055392804216, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I worked in the summers, usually away from home. I worked in a camp for handicapped children, and I worked in California one summer. And that's the summer I had seven different summer jobs. Some lasted a day and some lasted a week. The last one I was in a cannery, canning factory, but they kept me on because all the other students had gone back to college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was up in Wisconsin?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Wisconsin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Any international travel up to that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only international travel I did was to Mexico, where I spent the summer of 1965. And then I think I was there on a spring break."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was just tourism or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.438450599200468, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Wisconsin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Any international travel up to that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only international travel I did was to Mexico, where I spent the summer of 1965. And then I think I was there on a spring break."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was just tourism or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was tourism, yeah. So I didn't have, that was my international experience at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You grew up in Wisconsin?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6192737986289, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I grew up in Wisconsin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Siblings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two brothers and a sister. And my brother was also a Latin American, a Latin Americanist, I guess you could use that word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was a little interest there in the family. So that was what my major was. And then when I applied for the Peace Corps, then I asked for Latin America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you, now you're going into your senior year. Do you remember, you recall the application process?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.021415331809889, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two brothers and a sister. And my brother was also a Latin American, a Latin Americanist, I guess you could use that word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was a little interest there in the family. So that was what my major was. And then when I applied for the Peace Corps, then I asked for Latin America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you, now you're going into your senior year. Do you remember, you recall the application process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, probably it would be more overwhelming now than it was back then, because you used to do a lot of paperwork and doing some papers. And so it was just another thing to get ready."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall indicating an area preference? I think that's one of the things."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.468239257566543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was a little interest there in the family. So that was what my major was. And then when I applied for the Peace Corps, then I asked for Latin America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you, now you're going into your senior year. Do you remember, you recall the application process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, probably it would be more overwhelming now than it was back then, because you used to do a lot of paperwork and doing some papers. And so it was just another thing to get ready."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall indicating an area preference? I think that's one of the things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, of course. They probably had preference for community development, and I did indicate a preference for Latin America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how was your Spanish at that point, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.964710286185047, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, probably it would be more overwhelming now than it was back then, because you used to do a lot of paperwork and doing some papers. And so it was just another thing to get ready."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall indicating an area preference? I think that's one of the things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, of course. They probably had preference for community development, and I did indicate a preference for Latin America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how was your Spanish at that point, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my Spanish was, um, well back then it was the FSI. And when I went into the Peace Corps, I tested as a three. So I guess I was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was all just from college and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.51634476242783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, of course. They probably had preference for community development, and I did indicate a preference for Latin America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how was your Spanish at that point, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my Spanish was, um, well back then it was the FSI. And when I went into the Peace Corps, I tested as a three. So I guess I was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was all just from college and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And having spent a summer in Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. And as the application process went on, did you have any alternatives in mind?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.1292719582531445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my Spanish was, um, well back then it was the FSI. And when I went into the Peace Corps, I tested as a three. So I guess I was good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. And that was all just from college and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And having spent a summer in Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. And as the application process went on, did you have any alternatives in mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, avoid the draft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. I was going to ask about that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.332434516361907, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, avoid the draft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. I was going to ask about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Vietnam. So I also was considering teaching because the teaching was still a deferment at the time, although I didn't have any teaching credentials there were programs to get them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And of course, that was up to each of the individual draft boards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you associated with a board that was tended to give deferments for Peace Corps service?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.03603835151323, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Vietnam. So I also was considering teaching because the teaching was still a deferment at the time, although I didn't have any teaching credentials there were programs to get them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And of course, that was up to each of the individual draft boards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you associated with a board that was tended to give deferments for Peace Corps service?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because it wasn't true of all of them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 8.686467100633616, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because it wasn't true of all of them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. Even people in our training that had problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, I think one of them was actually called out of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So application goes in, you move toward graduation. What was, what happened next?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.096074556259573, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's correct. Even people in our training that had problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, I think one of them was actually called out of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So application goes in, you move toward graduation. What was, what happened next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I would be graduating at mid-year in January, and I think I must have received the notice from the Peace Corps, uh. I would graduate at the end of January, I should say, probably around Christmas. I can't remember if it was right before Christmas or right after. But, uh, I, it wasn't a long time in between when I was graduating and when the Peace Corps training started. And I think I graduated and within two weeks I was at Peace Corps training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was family's reaction to you joining and friends and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.056882168221695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I would be graduating at mid-year in January, and I think I must have received the notice from the Peace Corps, uh. I would graduate at the end of January, I should say, probably around Christmas. I can't remember if it was right before Christmas or right after. But, uh, I, it wasn't a long time in between when I was graduating and when the Peace Corps training started. And I think I graduated and within two weeks I was at Peace Corps training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was family's reaction to you joining and friends and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would say pretty supportive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was, uh, I wasn't engaged yet but I was, I had met my wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And did she approve of your going off for two years or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.09586031306131, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, she was going back to her Argentina."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She actually spent a second year teaching in the United States, probably because of our relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then. In general, yes, supportive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had you known anyone who'd been in the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4398447922903443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She actually spent a second year teaching in the United States, probably because of our relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then. In general, yes, supportive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had you known anyone who'd been in the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, Madison, there must have been."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.246721965790548, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, Madison, there must have been."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I must have met some Peace Corps volunteers, yes. I just don't recall if I did. I must have. There must have been students or graduate students there at math. I can't recall right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember seeing recruiters, though. I might have talked to one, but because I did all the process, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All on your own."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.718579961989498, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I must have met some Peace Corps volunteers, yes. I just don't recall if I did. I must have. There must have been students or graduate students there at math. I can't recall right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember seeing recruiters, though. I might have talked to one, but because I did all the process, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All on your own."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Asking for an application and mailing it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know. They may have cut back on recruiting because of the draft question around that time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.131755513321664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember seeing recruiters, though. I might have talked to one, but because I did all the process, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All on your own."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Asking for an application and mailing it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know. They may have cut back on recruiting because of the draft question around that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, later on I knew that there were college representatives for the Peace Corps at the larger universities and that they had one in Madison in later years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But not at the time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.590839459246293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Asking for an application and mailing it off."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know. They may have cut back on recruiting because of the draft question around that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, later on I knew that there were college representatives for the Peace Corps at the larger universities and that they had one in Madison in later years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But not at the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn't aware of that, so I assume there was not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where do you report for training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.8787105102736588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, later on I knew that there were college representatives for the Peace Corps at the larger universities and that they had one in Madison in later years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But not at the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn't aware of that, so I assume there was not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where do you report for training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I reported for training in, um, San Juan, Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was direct from Madison to San Juan?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1985672336373985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn't aware of that, so I assume there was not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So where do you report for training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I reported for training in, um, San Juan, Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was direct from Madison to San Juan?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The invitation had said, what? That you were being invited to train for Honduras?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.9488484365893806, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The invitation had said, what? That you were being invited to train for Honduras?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Honduras, the program, Honduras, whatever. I think 14? I forgot my number already. In community development. And of course, community development is a little bit of a nebulous term."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I believe at that time they were saying that a number of the volunteers would be assigned to work with co-ops and credit unions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, and where did you report in Puerto Rico? How did?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.2764982628770896, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Honduras, the program, Honduras, whatever. I think 14? I forgot my number already. In community development. And of course, community development is a little bit of a nebulous term."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I believe at that time they were saying that a number of the volunteers would be assigned to work with co-ops and credit unions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, and where did you report in Puerto Rico? How did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think today it's a Radisson hotel, but it was an independent hotel at the time. But a hotel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And that was, was that the training site?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.529442514307877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I believe at that time they were saying that a number of the volunteers would be assigned to work with co-ops and credit unions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, and where did you report in Puerto Rico? How did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think today it's a Radisson hotel, but it was an independent hotel at the time. But a hotel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And that was, was that the training site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was not the training. The three day orientation and then I can't remember if they started getting shots. As we discussed, they were probably, the psychologists were probably doing their job trying to shrink our heads at that time already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Approximately how many were in the training group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.810491682564308, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think today it's a Radisson hotel, but it was an independent hotel at the time. But a hotel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And that was, was that the training site?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was not the training. The three day orientation and then I can't remember if they started getting shots. As we discussed, they were probably, the psychologists were probably doing their job trying to shrink our heads at that time already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Approximately how many were in the training group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Around 80. It was a large program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it overwhelmingly male?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1227685361825643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was not the training. The three day orientation and then I can't remember if they started getting shots. As we discussed, they were probably, the psychologists were probably doing their job trying to shrink our heads at that time already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Approximately how many were in the training group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Around 80. It was a large program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it overwhelmingly male?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was overwhelmingly male. There was a nursing component there, around 15 or 20 nurses, some of whom were spouses of the volunteers who were going to be in our program or in others. Several of them were engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But everyone was scheduled for Honduras?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.469742817980627, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Around 80. It was a large program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it overwhelmingly male?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was overwhelmingly male. There was a nursing component there, around 15 or 20 nurses, some of whom were spouses of the volunteers who were going to be in our program or in others. Several of them were engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But everyone was scheduled for Honduras?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the program was for Honduras."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you recall your impression of the others? I mean, now you're in the midst of other Peace Corps volunteers or trainees."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.283633108618058, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the program was for Honduras."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you recall your impression of the others? I mean, now you're in the midst of other Peace Corps volunteers or trainees."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, I remember. Well, it's just, of course I didn't know any of them. Um. I almost went in with my brother, by the way. My brother was offered the same program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He had graduated mid-year, graduated mid-year with his master's degree in geography, and he was offered the program, but he had lined up a teaching job in college, so he took that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He's a little older?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.053868035330935, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He had graduated mid-year, graduated mid-year with his master's degree in geography, and he was offered the program, but he had lined up a teaching job in college, so he took that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He's a little older?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was two years older."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But chronologically, he was offered it before I was. They might have gone through him and got to me next, but that was that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or maybe they thought you were both the same person. Three day staging?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.504297817034372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was two years older."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But chronologically, he was offered it before I was. They might have gone through him and got to me next, but that was that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or maybe they thought you were both the same person. Three day staging?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Shots and a psychiatrist or a psychologist begin to look at you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.4497503914004595, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Shots and a psychiatrist or a psychologist begin to look at you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then they also sent us off to look at some of the barrios, the poor areas there in San Juan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember one, La Perla, which they at that time said was the worst area, it was a collection of shacks right on the, in old San Juan, right on the beach. You can see it once you have gone off the road. So that was a bit of a shocker to see that, of course. [phone rings]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here you go. So you had this exposure."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.944167101556066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then they also sent us off to look at some of the barrios, the poor areas there in San Juan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember one, La Perla, which they at that time said was the worst area, it was a collection of shacks right on the, in old San Juan, right on the beach. You can see it once you have gone off the road. So that was a bit of a shocker to see that, of course. [phone rings]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here you go. So you had this exposure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So anyway, they started us off right away seeing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the training staff at that point, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.493519001728962, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I remember one, La Perla, which they at that time said was the worst area, it was a collection of shacks right on the, in old San Juan, right on the beach. You can see it once you have gone off the road. So that was a bit of a shocker to see that, of course. [phone rings]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Here you go. So you had this exposure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So anyway, they started us off right away seeing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the training staff at that point, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who the training staff, uh. They'd come down from the mountain from the camp."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were Americans?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.53569136039638, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were Americans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Former volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. The psychologists I don't think were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the others were, I believe were all former volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And even in taking you or sending you into the first slum, did anyone make a point of why?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.303322667156024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But the others were, I believe were all former volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And even in taking you or sending you into the first slum, did anyone make a point of why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. This will be similar to what you're going to be working in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although most of you will be in small towns in rural Honduras, there will be a number of you in the cities and you'll see this and you'll see worse."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the group have a feeling they were playing head games with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.337025185728915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. This will be similar to what you're going to be working in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although most of you will be in small towns in rural Honduras, there will be a number of you in the cities and you'll see this and you'll see worse."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the group have a feeling they were playing head games with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. After the three days?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.692764315128827, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then we hopped onto a bus and they took us up to the camp, which is about an hour and a half drive probably. It's not very far. But by the time you get there, hour and a half from San Juan, the capital. Camp Crozier and Camp?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Radley."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Radley. We went to Camp Crozier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that was, uh, you know, assigned to our cabins and find a bunk and put yourself, put your stuff into a footlocker and start the program of more shots and more orientation and language and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did language play out for you since you had, had you tested out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.899539526925688, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They tested us and probably they did that in San Juan, now that I think about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they of course assigned us by groups. Actually, I was the top person in the second to the highest Spanish group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then within a week, they put me into the other group, which was made up of one Puerto Rican native speaker and another woman who had lived in Puerto Rico for seven or eight years or who was [inaudible] some teenagers there. So her Spanish was basically native level and her husband was close. And then the guy who had been in Ecuador for a year as a Fulbright and then me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the Spanish may must have been different, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.999488363250764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they of course assigned us by groups. Actually, I was the top person in the second to the highest Spanish group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then within a week, they put me into the other group, which was made up of one Puerto Rican native speaker and another woman who had lived in Puerto Rico for seven or eight years or who was [inaudible] some teenagers there. So her Spanish was basically native level and her husband was close. And then the guy who had been in Ecuador for a year as a Fulbright and then me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the Spanish may must have been different, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was Puerto Rican Spanish. Mexican American Spanish. Mexican and Ecuadorian."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you still did, so part of your training program was continued language training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3710402788076321, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Really that was what I viewed as, uh, after a while, it got to be a waste of time. And you sat around and talked. There should have been some way we could have increased, we increased our skills, but very little technical training was taking place anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the group of five or six of us should have been acquiring more technical training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in the end, they let us go into town much more often than the others could go into town and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they didn't try to recruit you to be part of the language training staff?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5233780875640357, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the group of five or six of us should have been acquiring more technical training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in the end, they let us go into town much more often than the others could go into town and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they didn't try to recruit you to be part of the language training staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, I would not. I wasn't that good at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you were better."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.692642319515595, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in the end, they let us go into town much more often than the others could go into town and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they didn't try to recruit you to be part of the language training staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, I would not. I wasn't that good at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you were better."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could have helped the very beginners, but they hadn't asked me to be language staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was language. Was there area studies?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.089681875945179, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could have helped the very beginners, but they hadn't asked me to be language staff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was language. Was there area studies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Area studies, yeah. Cross-cultural studies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Code word, don't we. So that we spent a lot of time with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was conducting that? Were they Hondurans or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.321868751050199, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Area studies, yeah. Cross-cultural studies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Code word, don't we. So that we spent a lot of time with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was conducting that? Were they Hondurans or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, no. Those were the staff that were former volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And history and culture and that sort of thing. Was some of it, must have been familiar to you? Some of it anyway."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.5798541678335547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Code word, don't we. So that we spent a lot of time with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was conducting that? Were they Hondurans or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, no. Those were the staff that were former volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And history and culture and that sort of thing. Was some of it, must have been familiar to you? Some of it anyway."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd been exposed to it, but not in the same manner of cross-cultural studies. I had all the background of history and geography and the economics of Latin America. Geology. But not the emphasis on the cross-cultural studies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that time, were they still giving what used to be called American history and world communism?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.8665046309261717, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, no. Those were the staff that were former volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And history and culture and that sort of thing. Was some of it, must have been familiar to you? Some of it anyway."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd been exposed to it, but not in the same manner of cross-cultural studies. I had all the background of history and geography and the economics of Latin America. Geology. But not the emphasis on the cross-cultural studies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that time, were they still giving what used to be called American history and world communism?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Any American history components of training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.185005145473524, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd been exposed to it, but not in the same manner of cross-cultural studies. I had all the background of history and geography and the economics of Latin America. Geology. But not the emphasis on the cross-cultural studies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that time, were they still giving what used to be called American history and world communism?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Any American history components of training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember any at all, other than bringing it as comparative. The history of Honduras is this compared to the history the United States, which I already knew that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about technical studies?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.5388946060816933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Any American history components of training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember any at all, other than bringing it as comparative. The history of Honduras is this compared to the history the United States, which I already knew that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about technical studies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Technical was I think one of our things I look back at what we complained about was the lack of technical training, that we're going to be working with co-ops for the majority of our part of the program. They could have done more, go over simple accounting and getting the books that you might set up at a credit union."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had none of those skills, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1344377852860412, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Technical was I think one of our things I look back at what we complained about was the lack of technical training, that we're going to be working with co-ops for the majority of our part of the program. They could have done more, go over simple accounting and getting the books that you might set up at a credit union."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had none of those skills, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had none of those skills. Well, I'd taken accounting, but that doesn't mean that I know how to do the practical stuff. And again, it wasn't, it's not going to be a high level. But on the other hand, two years later, when I was a trainer for the same type of programs, I made sure that we did more of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was, that was one of our biggest complaints."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at the time, you had the feeling there was a vagueness about the technical studies."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4827086503178237, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had none of those skills. Well, I'd taken accounting, but that doesn't mean that I know how to do the practical stuff. And again, it wasn't, it's not going to be a high level. But on the other hand, two years later, when I was a trainer for the same type of programs, I made sure that we did more of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was, that was one of our biggest complaints."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at the time, you had the feeling there was a vagueness about the technical studies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We kept thinking, when were we going to get the training of what we're going to be doing in our jobs when we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody was answering that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8696762781309153, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was, that was one of our biggest complaints."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at the time, you had the feeling there was a vagueness about the technical studies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We kept thinking, when were we going to get the training of what we're going to be doing in our jobs when we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody was answering that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were. It's kind of hard to recall. But we kept thinking we would get more. We never got much at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two other components of training would be some medical training and then some physical training. I don't know if you recall either of those."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.29964030903435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We kept thinking, when were we going to get the training of what we're going to be doing in our jobs when we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody was answering that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were. It's kind of hard to recall. But we kept thinking we would get more. We never got much at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two other components of training would be some medical training and then some physical training. I don't know if you recall either of those."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical training?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, it's legendary."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.777378121149278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they were. It's kind of hard to recall. But we kept thinking we would get more. We never got much at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two other components of training would be some medical training and then some physical training. I don't know if you recall either of those."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical training?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I mean, it's legendary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical training. But there was nothing that was required."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "None of the drownproofing, throwing you off a cliff to see if you bounce?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.786886569320096, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical training. But there was nothing that was required."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "None of the drownproofing, throwing you off a cliff to see if you bounce?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That apparently it had its day already. But as I mentioned, I probably was in one of the best shapes of my life because there was plenty of, well, we were in the camp, so we were isolated. They could keep us going 16 hours a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don't cover the mike. Yeah. Okay. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.207651743688996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That apparently it had its day already. But as I mentioned, I probably was in one of the best shapes of my life because there was plenty of, well, we were in the camp, so we were isolated. They could keep us going 16 hours a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don't cover the mike. Yeah. Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we, I did exercise three times a day and in the night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And of course, the other aspect of training is the selection process. How was that organized?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.771813091480104, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was the strengths I guess, is what we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Called it. And this apparently was past its peak as far as weeding people out because. Although there was probably the desire of a number of males like myself to avoid the draft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They weren't, it didn't seem like the biggest part of the job, of the activity, was to weed us out. They were there. There were psychologists on staff. And they'd kind of give you a good idea of what they expected. You're going to have to be able to adapt and what kind of conditions you'll be living under. And you have to make some advancement in your language studies. And a lot of, they were already saying you had to make your own job to a certain extent because the structure, the infrastructure might not be there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there small group meetings? You know, you'd meet in a small group and discuss an issue?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.413125657200116, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Called it. And this apparently was past its peak as far as weeding people out because. Although there was probably the desire of a number of males like myself to avoid the draft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They weren't, it didn't seem like the biggest part of the job, of the activity, was to weed us out. They were there. There were psychologists on staff. And they'd kind of give you a good idea of what they expected. You're going to have to be able to adapt and what kind of conditions you'll be living under. And you have to make some advancement in your language studies. And a lot of, they were already saying you had to make your own job to a certain extent because the structure, the infrastructure might not be there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there small group meetings? You know, you'd meet in a small group and discuss an issue?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was that. And sometimes I, I kind of recall some kind of psychological games were a part of that, but I just can't be specific at this point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you, how did you feel mid-point in the training about your own prospects?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.125695174666795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They weren't, it didn't seem like the biggest part of the job, of the activity, was to weed us out. They were there. There were psychologists on staff. And they'd kind of give you a good idea of what they expected. You're going to have to be able to adapt and what kind of conditions you'll be living under. And you have to make some advancement in your language studies. And a lot of, they were already saying you had to make your own job to a certain extent because the structure, the infrastructure might not be there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there small group meetings? You know, you'd meet in a small group and discuss an issue?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was that. And sometimes I, I kind of recall some kind of psychological games were a part of that, but I just can't be specific at this point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you, how did you feel mid-point in the training about your own prospects?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess apprehensive about having some kind of skills to be able to use and what kind of specific job I would be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't have any hesitation? You assumed that you were going to be selected."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.917439082963106, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was that. And sometimes I, I kind of recall some kind of psychological games were a part of that, but I just can't be specific at this point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How would you, how did you feel mid-point in the training about your own prospects?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess apprehensive about having some kind of skills to be able to use and what kind of specific job I would be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't have any hesitation? You assumed that you were going to be selected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And part of the group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.797154536625673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess apprehensive about having some kind of skills to be able to use and what kind of specific job I would be doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't have any hesitation? You assumed that you were going to be selected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And part of the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the, by the middle of the training, people who were not making progress in Spanish were given, while they weren't given ultimatums, but were told that you need to be able to function at a certain level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By the end of training, how many people had dropped out or been kicked out?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.515005600772437, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the, by the middle of the training, people who were not making progress in Spanish were given, while they weren't given ultimatums, but were told that you need to be able to function at a certain level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By the end of training, how many people had dropped out or been kicked out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It seemed like around ten."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not many."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only one I remember at this particular time was the guy who made it all the way through. And he already had some college Spanish, so he probably was, his Spanish language was alright. And the facial hair was a big deal. And apparently the Peace Corps director, it finally came down that they were not going to allow beards in Honduras. And so this guy transferred to a program for Panama where they allowed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did, what was the justification? Do you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.277784692311648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only one I remember at this particular time was the guy who made it all the way through. And he already had some college Spanish, so he probably was, his Spanish language was alright. And the facial hair was a big deal. And apparently the Peace Corps director, it finally came down that they were not going to allow beards in Honduras. And so this guy transferred to a program for Panama where they allowed it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did, what was the justification? Do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The justification was how you'd be looked at by the Hondurans. I think it was, communists had beards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Honduras was a politically sensitive area at this time, wasn't it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.308649658124054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The justification was how you'd be looked at by the Hondurans. I think it was, communists had beards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Honduras was a politically sensitive area at this time, wasn't it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would say all of Latin America was just because of the fear of communism."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right. Were there any civil wars in or near Honduras?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.677345256943275, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would say all of Latin America was just because of the fear of communism."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right. Were there any civil wars in or near Honduras?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guatemala had their civil war in 1953 or '54, when the elected government was kicked out by a military that was later found to be financed by the CIA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jacobo Arbenz was the president. And of course, we had a war when I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, was there any, uh, in training was there any discussion of the role you should play or the sensitivity?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.4192725077147506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guatemala had their civil war in 1953 or '54, when the elected government was kicked out by a military that was later found to be financed by the CIA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jacobo Arbenz was the president. And of course, we had a war when I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, was there any, uh, in training was there any discussion of the role you should play or the sensitivity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was it defined, if you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.132525008571945, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jacobo Arbenz was the president. And of course, we had a war when I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, was there any, uh, in training was there any discussion of the role you should play or the sensitivity?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was it defined, if you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's again, since I've had a lot of Latin American experience since this, it's kind of hard to remember. But nevertheless, the emphasis that you would be the center of attention wherever you were, which of course turned out to be true. And a tall, fair-complected person like me is even more so probably than others. Um, that you are representing the United States although you were not an embassy, you're not going to be an embassy person, and people would tend to confuse you with what the United States government was doing. Perhaps you would always say that your personal views might be something different. But this is the government view and we were urged not to express our private opinions about things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any discussions at all about either taking a position or not taking a position on the Vietnam War?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.81391667619105, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was it defined, if you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's again, since I've had a lot of Latin American experience since this, it's kind of hard to remember. But nevertheless, the emphasis that you would be the center of attention wherever you were, which of course turned out to be true. And a tall, fair-complected person like me is even more so probably than others. Um, that you are representing the United States although you were not an embassy, you're not going to be an embassy person, and people would tend to confuse you with what the United States government was doing. Perhaps you would always say that your personal views might be something different. But this is the government view and we were urged not to express our private opinions about things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any discussions at all about either taking a position or not taking a position on the Vietnam War?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was, that was the referring to number one, was what the U.S. government position was. Your own private position was, to be careful with that because they would view your opinions as those of the government then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you have a group of people just off, most of them just off college campuses."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.571018529101166, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's again, since I've had a lot of Latin American experience since this, it's kind of hard to remember. But nevertheless, the emphasis that you would be the center of attention wherever you were, which of course turned out to be true. And a tall, fair-complected person like me is even more so probably than others. Um, that you are representing the United States although you were not an embassy, you're not going to be an embassy person, and people would tend to confuse you with what the United States government was doing. Perhaps you would always say that your personal views might be something different. But this is the government view and we were urged not to express our private opinions about things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any discussions at all about either taking a position or not taking a position on the Vietnam War?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was, that was the referring to number one, was what the U.S. government position was. Your own private position was, to be careful with that because they would view your opinions as those of the government then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you have a group of people just off, most of them just off college campuses."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they all keep their mouth shut about Vietnam?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.412242810112406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was, that was the referring to number one, was what the U.S. government position was. Your own private position was, to be careful with that because they would view your opinions as those of the government then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you have a group of people just off, most of them just off college campuses."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they all keep their mouth shut about Vietnam?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But at least in front of the selection board, they would, they did."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.23582534456934, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they all keep their mouth shut about Vietnam?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But at least in front of the selection board, they would, they did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. And there was, there was in the training camp. But I think it was actually by the time we got in country, there was, I don't know, was the bombing of Laos or, I can't recall. One of the times when they stopped the bombing. When they restarted it, write your congressman, send a telegram and all that was, we discussed it pretty openly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were clear with your own draft board, you had gotten the deferment? Or it was in the works?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.150917049521489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But at least in front of the selection board, they would, they did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. And there was, there was in the training camp. But I think it was actually by the time we got in country, there was, I don't know, was the bombing of Laos or, I can't recall. One of the times when they stopped the bombing. When they restarted it, write your congressman, send a telegram and all that was, we discussed it pretty openly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were clear with your own draft board, you had gotten the deferment? Or it was in the works?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had a student deferment and I had to then request another deferment for the Peace Corps service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But expectation was it would come through, obviously."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.167685610579431, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct. And there was, there was in the training camp. But I think it was actually by the time we got in country, there was, I don't know, was the bombing of Laos or, I can't recall. One of the times when they stopped the bombing. When they restarted it, write your congressman, send a telegram and all that was, we discussed it pretty openly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were clear with your own draft board, you had gotten the deferment? Or it was in the works?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had a student deferment and I had to then request another deferment for the Peace Corps service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But expectation was it would come through, obviously."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What happened after training? Did you have a chance to come back to the U.S.?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.737883469851149, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What happened after training? Did you have a chance to come back to the U.S.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. No, we, um. Well, I shouldn't say that. We had three days between the time we were leaving Puerto Rico and the time we had to be on a plane from a specific plane? Yeah, a specific flight from Miami to Tegucigalpa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so as it turned out, I was not on that flight. I had to stay another week or two for medical reasons. I had some open sores so they couldn't give the last smallpox shot. And so they waited for that to clear up. And then they gave me a shot and then they, they sent me. So I didn't have much, as much time as the other people did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And where did you spend that week, back home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.375426077612388, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. No, we, um. Well, I shouldn't say that. We had three days between the time we were leaving Puerto Rico and the time we had to be on a plane from a specific plane? Yeah, a specific flight from Miami to Tegucigalpa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so as it turned out, I was not on that flight. I had to stay another week or two for medical reasons. I had some open sores so they couldn't give the last smallpox shot. And so they waited for that to clear up. And then they gave me a shot and then they, they sent me. So I didn't have much, as much time as the other people did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And where did you spend that week, back home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it was just, I think it was like three days. I think I got like two days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Yeah. So now, did you come into Honduras alone, the group having already arrived?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.861584530680431, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so as it turned out, I was not on that flight. I had to stay another week or two for medical reasons. I had some open sores so they couldn't give the last smallpox shot. And so they waited for that to clear up. And then they gave me a shot and then they, they sent me. So I didn't have much, as much time as the other people did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And where did you spend that week, back home?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it was just, I think it was like three days. I think I got like two days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Yeah. So now, did you come into Honduras alone, the group having already arrived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In fact, then I. I believe I got on the bus right away. Like, let's see. I think I spent one night in the capital, and then they put me out. I got on a bus and went down to the south coast. Choluteca was where the, it was an agricultural extension or training center, and that's where the in- country training was taking place at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, and how long had been the Puerto Rican phase?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.290649478533812, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it was just, I think it was like three days. I think I got like two days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Yeah. So now, did you come into Honduras alone, the group having already arrived?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In fact, then I. I believe I got on the bus right away. Like, let's see. I think I spent one night in the capital, and then they put me out. I got on a bus and went down to the south coast. Choluteca was where the, it was an agricultural extension or training center, and that's where the in- country training was taking place at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, and how long had been the Puerto Rican phase?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Puerto Rican phase I believe was two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the phase in Honduras?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6562771983709013, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In fact, then I. I believe I got on the bus right away. Like, let's see. I think I spent one night in the capital, and then they put me out. I got on a bus and went down to the south coast. Choluteca was where the, it was an agricultural extension or training center, and that's where the in- country training was taking place at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, and how long had been the Puerto Rican phase?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Puerto Rican phase I believe was two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the phase in Honduras?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In country was about a month. So I probably was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point, at what point in the process did you know where you're going to be assigned?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.062530220412112, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Puerto Rican phase I believe was two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the phase in Honduras?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In country was about a month. So I probably was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point, at what point in the process did you know where you're going to be assigned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Well, I got in country, I think they'd started to make the assignments. Then there might have been a little bit more attrition and they were firming up the assignments. When I got there, they said, well, we think we're gonna send you to, when they told me too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they solicit your feelings, you know, like to be assigned alone, didn't want to be assigned with X, I'd prefer to be assigned?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.513922467124569, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In country was about a month. So I probably was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point, at what point in the process did you know where you're going to be assigned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Well, I got in country, I think they'd started to make the assignments. Then there might have been a little bit more attrition and they were firming up the assignments. When I got there, they said, well, we think we're gonna send you to, when they told me too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they solicit your feelings, you know, like to be assigned alone, didn't want to be assigned with X, I'd prefer to be assigned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really they did not. Maybe because I got there late. I think it was pretty well set in stone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you were familiar being in a setting and using your Spanish."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.0154694079161874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Well, I got in country, I think they'd started to make the assignments. Then there might have been a little bit more attrition and they were firming up the assignments. When I got there, they said, well, we think we're gonna send you to, when they told me too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they solicit your feelings, you know, like to be assigned alone, didn't want to be assigned with X, I'd prefer to be assigned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really they did not. Maybe because I got there late. I think it was pretty well set in stone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so you were familiar being in a setting and using your Spanish."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was the adjustment easy to?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.1919375406372685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was the adjustment easy to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was easier to understand the Spanish in Honduras than it was in Puerto Rico. They'd speak much more clearly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To my ear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, you know."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.768819489596965, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was easier to understand the Spanish in Honduras than it was in Puerto Rico. They'd speak much more clearly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To my ear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, you know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They don't cut off their letters, like the S for instance, like Puerto Ricans do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the, in the in-country phase, did you begin to get the technical training you felt?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.121999369872797, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They don't cut off their letters, like the S for instance, like Puerto Ricans do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the, in the in-country phase, did you begin to get the technical training you felt?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We got some more technical training, especially the agricultural part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From whom?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "General agricultural training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Again, from whom?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.913332633191996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We got some more technical training, especially the agricultural part."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From whom?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "General agricultural training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Again, from whom?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "From a mixture of the Peace Corps in-country staff, some of national people, I guess, the hotchpotch of Hondurans and Americans that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did you begin to get any clear sense of what it was that you were going to be doing and with whom and where?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.534978559496292, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From a mixture of the Peace Corps in-country staff, some of national people, I guess, the hotchpotch of Hondurans and Americans that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did you begin to get any clear sense of what it was that you were going to be doing and with whom and where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, um, I was not specifically assigned to the cooperative program, the co-ops, on the community development part. And then I found out it would be an agricultural colony, they called it, that the land reform agency had in this part of the country, Olancho, where I was going to be assigned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And within that, I found out fairly soon that there was a consumer co-op as part of it, but that wasn't necessarily the assigning. It was community development that I would be assigned to be a counterpart there also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had Peace Corps volunteers been in that particular town before?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.302442666044804, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And within that, I found out fairly soon that there was a consumer co-op as part of it, but that wasn't necessarily the assigning. It was community development that I would be assigned to be a counterpart there also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had Peace Corps volunteers been in that particular town before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In a matter of fact, when I got there, there was a, I think they must have left within a day or two of when I actually got there, I didn't. The other Peace Corps volunteer, I actually replaced him. So I think he might have got to the site a day or two before me. So it was replacing the man. There was a couple."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my position was new."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So describe the town and distance from other towns and the, your living circumstance. And then we'll talk about how you settled into the job. [tape break] Okay. We're talking about the assignment, the area you were in."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.808563327907824, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was assigned to the wild east of Honduras, Olancho province, or department I guess they're called in Honduras."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think I went out, was actually driven out there by the agriculturist. I mean, yeah, an extensionist who worked with the ag co-ops, ag co-op federation, a Honduran."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A Honduran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It was in a way the counterpart of my Peace Corps colleague. He was going out there. So that I, yeah, that means my colleague was already there. I had been there for a couple of days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And how large a place was it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.405633738157807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It was in a way the counterpart of my Peace Corps colleague. He was going out there. So that I, yeah, that means my colleague was already there. I had been there for a couple of days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And how large a place was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's Catacamas, a community of around 5,000 people altogether. There's the city and county in one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the town itself might have had 3,000 of those people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And most people are agriculturalists?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.895148597953117, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's Catacamas, a community of around 5,000 people altogether. There's the city and county in one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the town itself might have had 3,000 of those people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And most people are agriculturalists?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In the rest of the town there were shopkeepers and doctors. I don't know if there were any lawyers, there was a dentist. Actually, there was an Austrian dentist lady who was, you might recall this. Recall her daughter was buried alive in Georgia somewhere for a week or two in the 1960s?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don't recall at all."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.0433933308063175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. In the rest of the town there were shopkeepers and doctors. I don't know if there were any lawyers, there was a dentist. Actually, there was an Austrian dentist lady who was, you might recall this. Recall her daughter was buried alive in Georgia somewhere for a week or two in the 1960s?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don't recall at all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A year or two before I got there. After I left Catacamas, this dentist was murdered."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some petty thievery, and she was there and discovered the thief."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had housing been arranged for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.349868309637428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some petty thievery, and she was there and discovered the thief."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had housing been arranged for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, not specifically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. The couple was leaving. I think they must have left the day after I got there because I remember sleeping in the living room and I just, we took over their house. The other Peace Corps volunteer and I took over their house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were paying rent to somebody?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.055409232930476, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, not specifically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. The couple was leaving. I think they must have left the day after I got there because I remember sleeping in the living room and I just, we took over their house. The other Peace Corps volunteer and I took over their house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were paying rent to somebody?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To somebody, yes. Actually, it was the, I'm sorry, now I recall a little better. It was the agricultural co-op's building. And so we were the caretakers at the same time as being, my colleague was working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your colleague being another Peace Corps volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.839343592144973, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. The couple was leaving. I think they must have left the day after I got there because I remember sleeping in the living room and I just, we took over their house. The other Peace Corps volunteer and I took over their house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were paying rent to somebody?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To somebody, yes. Actually, it was the, I'm sorry, now I recall a little better. It was the agricultural co-op's building. And so we were the caretakers at the same time as being, my colleague was working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your colleague being another Peace Corps volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your domestic arrangements? I mean, how did you get food and get laundry done? And mundane stuff like that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.377048435716636, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To somebody, yes. Actually, it was the, I'm sorry, now I recall a little better. It was the agricultural co-op's building. And so we were the caretakers at the same time as being, my colleague was working."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your colleague being another Peace Corps volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your domestic arrangements? I mean, how did you get food and get laundry done? And mundane stuff like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The mundane stuff like that. There were stores where you'd go and buy things. There was a, some of the little stores had fresh produce if it were the season. In the dry season, there would be tomatoes and onions and cabbage and occasionally they would bring in other vegetables from Tegucigalpa, the capital, and you could buy a little more fresh things. But some of the year there was very little fresh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there small restaurants you could eat at?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.974498261907374, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your domestic arrangements? I mean, how did you get food and get laundry done? And mundane stuff like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The mundane stuff like that. There were stores where you'd go and buy things. There was a, some of the little stores had fresh produce if it were the season. In the dry season, there would be tomatoes and onions and cabbage and occasionally they would bring in other vegetables from Tegucigalpa, the capital, and you could buy a little more fresh things. But some of the year there was very little fresh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there small restaurants you could eat at?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were two or three small restaurants you could eat at. There were, um, there was fresh meat because there was a packing plant. So cattle was one of the big industries there. We could always get fresh meat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But unlike some other areas, or did you hire a personal servant of some sort?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.638331402119304, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The mundane stuff like that. There were stores where you'd go and buy things. There was a, some of the little stores had fresh produce if it were the season. In the dry season, there would be tomatoes and onions and cabbage and occasionally they would bring in other vegetables from Tegucigalpa, the capital, and you could buy a little more fresh things. But some of the year there was very little fresh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there small restaurants you could eat at?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were two or three small restaurants you could eat at. There were, um, there was fresh meat because there was a packing plant. So cattle was one of the big industries there. We could always get fresh meat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But unlike some other areas, or did you hire a personal servant of some sort?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we did not. We had, the laundry, we had people do our laundry for us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And again, you were not living with a family, you were living on your own with your Peace Corps brother."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 7.37592378013256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were two or three small restaurants you could eat at. There were, um, there was fresh meat because there was a packing plant. So cattle was one of the big industries there. We could always get fresh meat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But unlike some other areas, or did you hire a personal servant of some sort?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we did not. We had, the laundry, we had people do our laundry for us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And again, you were not living with a family, you were living on your own with your Peace Corps brother."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Describe your initial, you know, meeting with your counterpart and your job setting and how it played out over the first month."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7510264223695113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we did not. We had, the laundry, we had people do our laundry for us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And again, you were not living with a family, you were living on your own with your Peace Corps brother."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Describe your initial, you know, meeting with your counterpart and your job setting and how it played out over the first month."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the counterpart lived in town and I can't remember what his title was. I think he saw his job as just riding this horse around the agricultural colony, which was about five miles from town where it started and extended out another five miles. The plots were, um, I think ten hectares, 25 acres or something, that the people had been given. Later on, later on I found out that they were foot soldiers for the political party in power at the time that it was given. But I was so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.630896817740137, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the counterpart lived in town and I can't remember what his title was. I think he saw his job as just riding this horse around the agricultural colony, which was about five miles from town where it started and extended out another five miles. The plots were, um, I think ten hectares, 25 acres or something, that the people had been given. Later on, later on I found out that they were foot soldiers for the political party in power at the time that it was given. But I was so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I still was wet behind the ears when I got there, but I found out later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And some of them had lived in the, but had worked in the banana plantations on the north coast of Honduras. Or they had some on the south coast earlier. [tape break] That, uh, those jobs that maybe there was disease in some of the plantations or something, but I know there was a number of them had worked in the plantations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And what did you do on day one on the job?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.3714775527656005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And some of them had lived in the, but had worked in the banana plantations on the north coast of Honduras. Or they had some on the south coast earlier. [tape break] That, uh, those jobs that maybe there was disease in some of the plantations or something, but I know there was a number of them had worked in the plantations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And what did you do on day one on the job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so I met my counterpart that, you know, took me out and introduced me to some of the, uh, the farmers and then the people that were running the consumer co-op that was out in this agricultural colony that was next door to a school. It was kind of the community land there and there was probably a lot of square. So it might have been four or five or eight of these lots. Or 25 acre plots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was, one corner had a small building that wasn't used and theoretically I could have used as a home. That wasn't being used for anything. And then there was the school and then the ag consumer co-op. So that's where it was kind of the center of where I would gravitate to do my job of community development. And then within several days, I would have met then the officers of the co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, this is a consumer co-op?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.746086169739556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so I met my counterpart that, you know, took me out and introduced me to some of the, uh, the farmers and then the people that were running the consumer co-op that was out in this agricultural colony that was next door to a school. It was kind of the community land there and there was probably a lot of square. So it might have been four or five or eight of these lots. Or 25 acre plots."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was, one corner had a small building that wasn't used and theoretically I could have used as a home. That wasn't being used for anything. And then there was the school and then the ag consumer co-op. So that's where it was kind of the center of where I would gravitate to do my job of community development. And then within several days, I would have met then the officers of the co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, this is a consumer co-op?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A consumer co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the idea was that they would buy consumer goods and at lower price."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.162317966377285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was, one corner had a small building that wasn't used and theoretically I could have used as a home. That wasn't being used for anything. And then there was the school and then the ag consumer co-op. So that's where it was kind of the center of where I would gravitate to do my job of community development. And then within several days, I would have met then the officers of the co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, this is a consumer co-op?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A consumer co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the idea was that they would buy consumer goods and at lower price."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lower price, correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Didn't it require having some kind of central store?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.138664156021339, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lower price, correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Didn't it require having some kind of central store?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was a store."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a store much like stores that you found in town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But cooperatively owned."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.70962684002371, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there was a store."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a store much like stores that you found in town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But cooperatively owned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cooperatively owned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, what were you there for? At what point did you say that to yourselves?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.8321355830229225, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As we started to sarcastically say, here I am, I've come to save the world, and now I got to start saving the world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that was, I guess, the classical case of making your own job. There was a manager for the consumer co-op. So what my job was not to run the consumer co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I said, I gravitated toward that to, you know, give them advice and find out when they had inventory and talk about the supplies and how the system worked out, where you would go to the capital city to buy supplies once a month, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What was their perception of who in the world you were?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.591261758914358, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that was, I guess, the classical case of making your own job. There was a manager for the consumer co-op. So what my job was not to run the consumer co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As I said, I gravitated toward that to, you know, give them advice and find out when they had inventory and talk about the supplies and how the system worked out, where you would go to the capital city to buy supplies once a month, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. What was their perception of who in the world you were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I think it varied between bringing money, because I was from the United States. Bringing a road, that's what they wanted. The roads were really just artificially measured, probably 50 feet wide that they didn't belong to the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, did they see you as a link, a link to their own government or to U.S aid?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.524042666851744, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was made up, those directors were more the big landowners of the area. So I wouldn't say it was subverted, but to think, well, it's for the small farmers, you can do an agricultural co-op. But the officers, including one of the officers and I don't know if he was present at the time or had been or was going to be, was an American missionary who had started, I think, in 1946. He said he went out there as a younger man and started an orphanage farm. And that particular one, they had, I don't know, a couple hundred acres, and they lost about a half of it to land invasions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We found out that the large landowners, his colleagues on the board of directors, had their little spies among the campesinos that were going to do the invading."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they said, let's go after the Americans. All they got, all the rich Americans have this land and they're taking advantage of the hungering free laborer. And this and that and the other thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is just in the instance of the missionary?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.474126749199684, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they said, let's go after the Americans. All they got, all the rich Americans have this land and they're taking advantage of the hungering free laborer. And this and that and the other thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is just in the instance of the missionary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so the missionary, the mission kind of lost half the land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I didn't see but I didn't see any whips when I went out to the mission, the mission orphanage. And they were working in the fields and they would be in the school half a day and working the land half the day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your involvement was just incidental."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.971251943555204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so the missionary, the mission kind of lost half the land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I didn't see but I didn't see any whips when I went out to the mission, the mission orphanage. And they were working in the fields and they would be in the school half a day and working the land half the day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your involvement was just incidental."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was just incidental. Again, seeing how things work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the guy you were living with was involved with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.5236132706168934, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I didn't see but I didn't see any whips when I went out to the mission, the mission orphanage. And they were working in the fields and they would be in the school half a day and working the land half the day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your involvement was just incidental."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was just incidental. Again, seeing how things work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the guy you were living with was involved with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the agricultural co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With that, the one we're talking about here?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.137348078463215, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was just incidental. Again, seeing how things work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the guy you were living with was involved with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With the agricultural co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With that, the one we're talking about here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. [inaudible]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's okay. What, if you had a counterpart, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.576972936374339, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. [inaudible]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's okay. What, if you had a counterpart, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the counterpart, um, supervisor. He was just basically, I think he saw his job was just to ride around and make sure that the people on the land were on the land. There were not any land, anybody, any strange families that were or they were selling out. I don't think they could sell their lands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Had to revert back to the government. And that's all he did. He didn't see his job as working with the co-op or. The first kind of project I got involved with is measuring for a road. So I got another, there was another volunteer assigned to the capital as engineer to the land reform agency. So I got him to come out and measure for a road. And of course, that's all that happened. He measured for a road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point in your Peace Corps career did that happen?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.41885881819371, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the counterpart, um, supervisor. He was just basically, I think he saw his job was just to ride around and make sure that the people on the land were on the land. There were not any land, anybody, any strange families that were or they were selling out. I don't think they could sell their lands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Had to revert back to the government. And that's all he did. He didn't see his job as working with the co-op or. The first kind of project I got involved with is measuring for a road. So I got another, there was another volunteer assigned to the capital as engineer to the land reform agency. So I got him to come out and measure for a road. And of course, that's all that happened. He measured for a road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At what point in your Peace Corps career did that happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That happened about a month after I got there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did, in the first three or four months, did things begin to gel or did you still have the kind of question of why I am here?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.393652861967542, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That happened about a month after I got there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did, in the first three or four months, did things begin to gel or did you still have the kind of question of why I am here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My, I was only, I was there for a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And after that, I went to the capital city. So things really never did gel. This measuring during the survey work for the road was, I help, I helped out my, the Peace Corps volunteer that came out to do the survey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's really your first year. Go, go ahead. I'm sorry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 10.609447977737705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And after that, I went to the capital city. So things really never did gel. This measuring during the survey work for the road was, I help, I helped out my, the Peace Corps volunteer that came out to do the survey."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's really your first year. Go, go ahead. I'm sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then I worked with the co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then about two months after I got there, there was the war with El Salvador. So that put a break on things for about two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you hear about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.121608864153005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then I worked with the co-op."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then about two months after I got there, there was the war with El Salvador. So that put a break on things for about two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you hear about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was probably the biggest incident, the biggest thing that really actually happened in the country. This was the run up to the 1970 World Cup and Honduras and El Salvador were playing best two out of three to, I think was actually to go to the World Cup in Mexico. And so the Hondurans, they went to El Salvador for the, I'm trying to remember now how it worked. The first game was in Tegucigalpa. Nothing happened. And then the Hondurans went over and they were, the fans were treated badly. And then that night they had riots in Tegucigalpa. And then the next night, other parts of the country, anti Salvadorian riots. There were a lot of Salvadorians had immigrated to Honduras because of El Salvador being overpopulated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. But there was no civil war going on there at the time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.322973906361735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was probably the biggest incident, the biggest thing that really actually happened in the country. This was the run up to the 1970 World Cup and Honduras and El Salvador were playing best two out of three to, I think was actually to go to the World Cup in Mexico. And so the Hondurans, they went to El Salvador for the, I'm trying to remember now how it worked. The first game was in Tegucigalpa. Nothing happened. And then the Hondurans went over and they were, the fans were treated badly. And then that night they had riots in Tegucigalpa. And then the next night, other parts of the country, anti Salvadorian riots. There were a lot of Salvadorians had immigrated to Honduras because of El Salvador being overpopulated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. But there was no civil war going on there at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no civil war going on. But that was, I think it had a direct results of why there was a civil war later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of 3 million people in Honduras, I think 300,000 must have been Salvadorians. So this took place. There were some riots. In my town, there weren't riots, but there were identifiable Salvadorians. I got, I couldn't tell people apart. But the big, the biggest difference is they eat black beans, the Hondurans eat red beans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So before you can beat somebody up, you have to sit down and have a meal with them."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.02552656262415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no civil war going on. But that was, I think it had a direct results of why there was a civil war later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of 3 million people in Honduras, I think 300,000 must have been Salvadorians. So this took place. There were some riots. In my town, there weren't riots, but there were identifiable Salvadorians. I got, I couldn't tell people apart. But the big, the biggest difference is they eat black beans, the Hondurans eat red beans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So before you can beat somebody up, you have to sit down and have a meal with them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they could, they could tell the difference. They spoke, I guess. I couldn't. Anyway, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went to work one day. You became aware that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.043246313613374, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I started out, heard this. I heard that on the radio and actually I was in Tegucigalpa a couple of days later. I had to go back in for something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But then what would happen. What happened in my town, Catacamas, was all of a sudden you started seeing a banner across the main street that said, to die for the country is to be a good Honduran. So someone, the military, I think the military was themselves trying to build up patriotic fervor to kick out the Salvadorians and, I don't know, even to bait them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then every day after that, it seemed like you would see a truckload of people, you know, a truck that's a big truck, not a pickup truck. There'd be people in them, loaded up their belongings and standing there, and then they'd take off. And that went on for several weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your impression was that, who was in the truck?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.4607979180412025, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then every day after that, it seemed like you would see a truckload of people, you know, a truck that's a big truck, not a pickup truck. There'd be people in them, loaded up their belongings and standing there, and then they'd take off. And that went on for several weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your impression was that, who was in the truck?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "These were Salvadorians leaving, because they knew something was going to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess when they saw the banner and all the hate that was on the radio. I didn't, I didn't catch it all, but I think there were all of a sudden teaching the people to hate the Salvadorians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you try to communicate with the Peace Corps headquarters and say, what's going on?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.263184673815307, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so at that time, there was a captain and, you know, maybe five soldiers in our little town, and I met. In fact, he drove me out to the agricultural colony one time. This is before the incident, but he was called to the front or whatever. I never saw him again. So that was a lesson in instant hate, at least in my mind, was instant hate. And I'd find, then I could go, what happened to so-and-so? Oh, he was Salvadorian. He left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they, the Salvadorians got the word somehow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They found out they were not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And among them were people you had been working with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:373", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.514649637572562, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they, the Salvadorians got the word somehow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They found out they were not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And among them were people you had been working with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so there were huge sort of gaps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.3143822686081, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so there were huge sort of gaps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And this is, the war started in July, so I had only known them for two months by the time the war started. But this started a month before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then one fine day I was out, um. Where was I? No, I was out in the site, you know, five miles from town. I heard a plane circling around, around dusk, actually I could see it. And, um, it was very unusual. We had an airstrip that was serviced by a DC-3 three times a week, but it came at 10:00 in the morning and it came back through at 2:00 going back. All the stops on the way and on the way back. So it was unusual to see a plane. It wasn't the biggest surprise. Well, it turned out that that plane had dropped two bombs in my town, one about two blocks from my house and another about six blocks. In fact, it was in the patio of the biggest store, because it could have killed a lot of people but didn't. It was just material damages right in the courtyards. And the other was in the yard of a kind of a medium corporate house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the assumption was it was the Salvadoran plane or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.684422553837161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then one fine day I was out, um. Where was I? No, I was out in the site, you know, five miles from town. I heard a plane circling around, around dusk, actually I could see it. And, um, it was very unusual. We had an airstrip that was serviced by a DC-3 three times a week, but it came at 10:00 in the morning and it came back through at 2:00 going back. All the stops on the way and on the way back. So it was unusual to see a plane. It wasn't the biggest surprise. Well, it turned out that that plane had dropped two bombs in my town, one about two blocks from my house and another about six blocks. In fact, it was in the patio of the biggest store, because it could have killed a lot of people but didn't. It was just material damages right in the courtyards. And the other was in the yard of a kind of a medium corporate house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the assumption was it was the Salvadoran plane or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we found out later, we didn't even know it out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But this is how. I was showing, uh, I had got a movie. Was that at the same time? Yeah, it was. That particular time I had gotten someone to come into town with an oxcart and I had a projector and, um, a portable electric generated, gasoline powered one. And I showed movies that evening in this little house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I hope, not war movies I hope."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.965893238587349, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in some cases, these kids have never seen movies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, these people could go into town. There was a movie house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it two or one? It was one movie house. And, uh, but a lot of these kids have never been in the movies. And anyway, we finished up pretty, pretty early there, it was. But I fell asleep in the school. I was going to sleep in the schoolhouse on the floor on this. And so then next door was the co-op and I, during the night, I thought I heard, I thought I was dreaming. But they were talking a lot, guerra, war, war. I got up real early because I still heard people talking. It was unusual to hear people all the middle of the night and then still. There was a lot of people there, like the co-op, the store didn't open until 7:00, an hour after the sun came up or something. So I got up and the people said, we're at war. And I said, who against? And they give the whole story, that there had been bombs dropped in town and the Salvadorian troops were, crossed over the border, and they had all kinds of rumors were flying by then, but most of the rumors would be the rumors that were spread by the radio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far were you from the Salvadoran border?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:391", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.7398813762081655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, these people could go into town. There was a movie house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was it two or one? It was one movie house. And, uh, but a lot of these kids have never been in the movies. And anyway, we finished up pretty, pretty early there, it was. But I fell asleep in the school. I was going to sleep in the schoolhouse on the floor on this. And so then next door was the co-op and I, during the night, I thought I heard, I thought I was dreaming. But they were talking a lot, guerra, war, war. I got up real early because I still heard people talking. It was unusual to hear people all the middle of the night and then still. There was a lot of people there, like the co-op, the store didn't open until 7:00, an hour after the sun came up or something. So I got up and the people said, we're at war. And I said, who against? And they give the whole story, that there had been bombs dropped in town and the Salvadorian troops were, crossed over the border, and they had all kinds of rumors were flying by then, but most of the rumors would be the rumors that were spread by the radio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far were you from the Salvadoran border?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I was 200 miles away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Okay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.147985426897346, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other Peace Corps volunteers were in town where they were invaded, and they were actually captured, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But no one was hurt. So I decided then a couple of hours later, I guess I'd better go back to town. And there already had sentries out, because they were figuring paratroopers and everything like this. But the, the plane was unlike the type you take a bomb and throw it out like that. It wasn't, they were 250 pound bombs but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's, uh, that was our picture of it. And so I went back to town and then, I can't remember if I got the, I don't think I got any word from the Peace Corps because they had, the military had taken over the telegraph lines and everything. I don't think I heard anything for. Basically they said stay put, which was what we're going to do anyway, cause I think the bus transportation had stopped anyway, because they have the bus in the capital city. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you suddenly feel cut off, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:399", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.719983807663719, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But no one was hurt. So I decided then a couple of hours later, I guess I'd better go back to town. And there already had sentries out, because they were figuring paratroopers and everything like this. But the, the plane was unlike the type you take a bomb and throw it out like that. It wasn't, they were 250 pound bombs but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's, uh, that was our picture of it. And so I went back to town and then, I can't remember if I got the, I don't think I got any word from the Peace Corps because they had, the military had taken over the telegraph lines and everything. I don't think I heard anything for. Basically they said stay put, which was what we're going to do anyway, cause I think the bus transportation had stopped anyway, because they have the bus in the capital city. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you suddenly feel cut off, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, a bit. And then the next day there was, I think it was the next day. Or was that, was that the same day? I can't remember of it was the next day or not. At the agriculture co-op didn't open. Usually my colleague, my Peace Corps colleague, was working there and doing something with the manager. Didn't open. But then all of a sudden, there was a long line of people at the door of the co-op banging on it. And my colleague didn't understand what they wanted, and they wanted machetes because the Salvadorian paratroopers had landed in San Pedro, which was a little crossroads about five miles out of town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And people were literally fired up to do this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:403", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.8271405032885415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, a bit. And then the next day there was, I think it was the next day. Or was that, was that the same day? I can't remember of it was the next day or not. At the agriculture co-op didn't open. Usually my colleague, my Peace Corps colleague, was working there and doing something with the manager. Didn't open. But then all of a sudden, there was a long line of people at the door of the co-op banging on it. And my colleague didn't understand what they wanted, and they wanted machetes because the Salvadorian paratroopers had landed in San Pedro, which was a little crossroads about five miles out of town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And people were literally fired up to do this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fired up, yeah. They didn't have, they had machetes at home, but they knew there were machetes there. And he said, well, what are we going to do? I said, well, I think they're going to tear down the door if we close it. So what we did is, rather than let them in, is there was like two or three boxes of machetes and we just gave one to each person who was there. And I remember this guy with a, who was always running around barefooted, like old man, sorry, but I don't know old he was at the time. I'm sure he was that much. He was the last one in line. He was almost going to look back at us like we knew he really wasn't going to run down there or jump on a truck or a horse to fight the Salvadorans. Of course, no one ever returned the machete. But no, they were panicking. They were panicking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, the large landowners would have their own guns. And I don't know if they went down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And were there, were there actually people leaving town to go to some central point to fight or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:405", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.474600559209491, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fired up, yeah. They didn't have, they had machetes at home, but they knew there were machetes there. And he said, well, what are we going to do? I said, well, I think they're going to tear down the door if we close it. So what we did is, rather than let them in, is there was like two or three boxes of machetes and we just gave one to each person who was there. And I remember this guy with a, who was always running around barefooted, like old man, sorry, but I don't know old he was at the time. I'm sure he was that much. He was the last one in line. He was almost going to look back at us like we knew he really wasn't going to run down there or jump on a truck or a horse to fight the Salvadorans. Of course, no one ever returned the machete. But no, they were panicking. They were panicking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, the large landowners would have their own guns. And I don't know if they went down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And were there, were there actually people leaving town to go to some central point to fight or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They just, they were prepared to defend the area."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:407", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.1940006213438785, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course, the large landowners would have their own guns. And I don't know if they went down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And were there, were there actually people leaving town to go to some central point to fight or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They just, they were prepared to defend the area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This is the only time that I heard that. That was a real live rumor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long the situation go on?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:409", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.993334023715421, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They just, they were prepared to defend the area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This is the only time that I heard that. That was a real live rumor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long the situation go on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Without any U.S. intervention in your?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:411", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.548148915239356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This is the only time that I heard that. That was a real live rumor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long the situation go on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Without any U.S. intervention in your?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, then the Hondurans would blame the U.S. for it. And I found out later the Salvadorians blamed the U.S. for it. I believe the OAS, of course there was a lot of behind the scenes U.S. involvement. Salvador, El Salvador was able to, um, the land troops. They had got into Honduras between, I guess up to ten or 12 miles, and captured towns, captured territory. Hondurans, I guess, started to control the air. And I believe the Hondurans bombed an oil refinery. And it was starting to affect things. And then I think that's what El Salvador finally realized that they were going to get. They might be able to advance further on the land, but they weren't going to have enough provisions to - this is all, I don't know this for sure - pursue them any further into Honduras. And so then the good offices of the OAS were able, then they had a cease fire. And then I think, I can't remember how long it took before all the Salvadoran troops went back to the existing, preexisting border."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at the time in the village, how were you being informed of these developments?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:415", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.38043075955476, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, then the Hondurans would blame the U.S. for it. And I found out later the Salvadorians blamed the U.S. for it. I believe the OAS, of course there was a lot of behind the scenes U.S. involvement. Salvador, El Salvador was able to, um, the land troops. They had got into Honduras between, I guess up to ten or 12 miles, and captured towns, captured territory. Hondurans, I guess, started to control the air. And I believe the Hondurans bombed an oil refinery. And it was starting to affect things. And then I think that's what El Salvador finally realized that they were going to get. They might be able to advance further on the land, but they weren't going to have enough provisions to - this is all, I don't know this for sure - pursue them any further into Honduras. And so then the good offices of the OAS were able, then they had a cease fire. And then I think, I can't remember how long it took before all the Salvadoran troops went back to the existing, preexisting border."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at the time in the village, how were you being informed of these developments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Radio, because we would listen to the Voice of America or BBC."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To try to get really what was going on. Because you could get shortwave radio stations from Honduras and El Salvador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody in town came to you and said, you know, this is all your fault or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:417", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.867145288394178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Radio, because we would listen to the Voice of America or BBC."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To try to get really what was going on. Because you could get shortwave radio stations from Honduras and El Salvador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody in town came to you and said, you know, this is all your fault or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. But then when they talked about this, like they said, it must have been that the Salvadorans were given the green light and given this and given that to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But there's no animosity toward you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:421", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.786599121474294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. But then when they talked about this, like they said, it must have been that the Salvadorans were given the green light and given this and given that to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But there's no animosity toward you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I think they were, they were looking for reasons why this had happened. But of course, they also realized that all their neighbors were Salvadoran and left the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the last six weeks before that, or a month before that, and something was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the rest of the year play out then, you were?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:431", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.608018969795075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It must have been said once or twice on the radio. But it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As far as a world event, that was what was going on in the world at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So things didn't. I didn't do anything really for a week or two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you attempted to."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:433", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.897798855327861, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As far as a world event, that was what was going on in the world at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So things didn't. I didn't do anything really for a week or two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you attempted to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because there were, as I said, they had posted sentries and everything. So I guess everybody knew who I was by then. I think I went out to my site once during that, like the first two weeks. Then I came in and I think I didn't go out there for a five or ten."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You weren't tempted to try to find your way to the capital?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:441", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.416703025953148, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We think that they made a mistake because that was not bombed and just got disoriented."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they saw. And I could see why because it was, looking for a town and they probably came and they were further west and, no, further east than they thought they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:449", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9882685961791613, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it might have been a week or so before we got any word from Peace Corps and they probably sent a telegram that was a week old that said, stay put unless your life is in danger, etc., etc."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As it turned out, even those volunteers who were along the Salvadoran border, they were captured but they were basically, they stayed in their homes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think in some cases they actually weren't, they were sent to this, sent to the capital of Honduras, of El Salvador. And then they went to Guatemala and then came back, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:451", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.431409551310179, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As it turned out, even those volunteers who were along the Salvadoran border, they were captured but they were basically, they stayed in their homes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think in some cases they actually weren't, they were sent to this, sent to the capital of Honduras, of El Salvador. And then they went to Guatemala and then came back, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were just there. Apparently there weren't any civilian atrocities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now with your story then, you still have another eight, nine months in the village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:453", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.812677279233532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think in some cases they actually weren't, they were sent to this, sent to the capital of Honduras, of El Salvador. And then they went to Guatemala and then came back, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were just there. Apparently there weren't any civilian atrocities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now with your story then, you still have another eight, nine months in the village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I still have eight or nine months that I stayed in this village. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And kind of what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:457", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.707008986708064, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I still have eight or nine months that I stayed in this village. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And kind of what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried to, this counterpart, to see what he could do. And but he was, uh, didn't want to make any waves, didn't want to make any request of the, of the agency where we were. He was just happy to get a paycheck and ride his horse out there two or three times a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I mean, weren't you discouraged?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:459", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.230009985231182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried to, this counterpart, to see what he could do. And but he was, uh, didn't want to make any waves, didn't want to make any request of the, of the agency where we were. He was just happy to get a paycheck and ride his horse out there two or three times a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I mean, weren't you discouraged?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And saying, you know, let me get the hell out of here?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:461", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.811122205812424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I mean, weren't you discouraged?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And saying, you know, let me get the hell out of here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as I said, I attached myself to the consumer co-op. Um, I, there was a local high school. I volunteered to be a PE teacher twice a week. And but when I find myself having gone through the Peace Corps book locker, then I knew there was, I had to do something there or. So I asked for a transfer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And during that whole year, had you been out of the?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:463", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.345691339791582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And saying, you know, let me get the hell out of here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as I said, I attached myself to the consumer co-op. Um, I, there was a local high school. I volunteered to be a PE teacher twice a week. And but when I find myself having gone through the Peace Corps book locker, then I knew there was, I had to do something there or. So I asked for a transfer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And during that whole year, had you been out of the?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, I was. I'd probably gone out every three months or more often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So to the capital?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:465", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7174348219906466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as I said, I attached myself to the consumer co-op. Um, I, there was a local high school. I volunteered to be a PE teacher twice a week. And but when I find myself having gone through the Peace Corps book locker, then I knew there was, I had to do something there or. So I asked for a transfer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And during that whole year, had you been out of the?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, I was. I'd probably gone out every three months or more often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So to the capital?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The capital every three months probably. And I think the Peace Corps had a meeting after three months or six months of all the volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:471", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.099361895734768, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And after a year. I think we did it twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It varied."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After three months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. We were discouraged, highly discouraged from coming in. In fact, they would send out a notice that we've seen these volunteers who are closer in who would go there much more often. And they were called on the carpet. So we were discouraged from going into the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That wasn't for political reasons, it was just?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:473", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 5.6659576619275205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After three months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. We were discouraged, highly discouraged from coming in. In fact, they would send out a notice that we've seen these volunteers who are closer in who would go there much more often. And they were called on the carpet. So we were discouraged from going into the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That wasn't for political reasons, it was just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because you were expected to be in your site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:481", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4570304251295845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I had worked out in Honduras 30 years before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To write a check because they were deposited in a checking account in a private bank, the state owned bank, which had a branch in the town where I lived. And after the first time they let, had it clear. It took, you know, ten days to clear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And after that they would honor the check right there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you, when you, to whom did you request the transfer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:487", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.998669993319046, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I made it, it was really a dual transfer request because I discussed it with the Peace Corps or what were they called, program directors or area directors? Program director, like I say, over my area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was basically the answer is, well, working it out with your agency. If they're willing, then we'll be willing. So I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then they said, oh, would you come in here and we'll have you work in the office and then we'll send you out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who said that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:493", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.741659798791558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Honduran agency that I was assigned to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's the National Agrarian Institute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I did that for about a month and nothing was happening. I moved into the capital city. Nothing happened. And then the cooperative agency for the country, they had, they knew about me because I was, they supervised this consumer co-op where I worked. And so they invited me to come to work for them. And they were looking for people like me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what were people like you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:497", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.3847651836932813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I did that for about a month and nothing was happening. I moved into the capital city. Nothing happened. And then the cooperative agency for the country, they had, they knew about me because I was, they supervised this consumer co-op where I worked. And so they invited me to come to work for them. And they were looking for people like me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what were people like you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Extensionists, people who knew how to read and write."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or Peace Corps volunteers, they'd had Peace Corps volunteers before. At that time, they didn't have any other ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, again, which agency picked you up at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:499", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.649739092992535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Extensionists, people who knew how to read and write."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or Peace Corps volunteers, they'd had Peace Corps volunteers before. At that time, they didn't have any other ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, again, which agency picked you up at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The National Cooperative, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's a national."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:501", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8330434366583717, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or Peace Corps volunteers, they'd had Peace Corps volunteers before. At that time, they didn't have any other ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, again, which agency picked you up at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The National Cooperative, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's a national."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Development. Cooperative Development Agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had made contact with them or they heard about you that you were a loose end?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:503", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.036714929620413, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The National Cooperative, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's a national."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Development. Cooperative Development Agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had made contact with them or they heard about you that you were a loose end?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We knew about each other. They would audit the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps played."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:505", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2630165884671256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Development. Cooperative Development Agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you had made contact with them or they heard about you that you were a loose end?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We knew about each other. They would audit the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps played."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually they audited the co-op where I was. That was my first contact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps had no role in this whole thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:507", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.514462876074584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We knew about each other. They would audit the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps played."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually they audited the co-op where I was. That was my first contact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps had no role in this whole thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they did. They had to get permission, but they didn't actively. They knew that our, like a lot of other agencies probably, that it was hard to get a real job. I mean, even though the agency had asked for you, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many of the volunteers did the same thing, from the group you were with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:509", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.793847640082871, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually they audited the co-op where I was. That was my first contact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps had no role in this whole thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they did. They had to get permission, but they didn't actively. They knew that our, like a lot of other agencies probably, that it was hard to get a real job. I mean, even though the agency had asked for you, it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many of the volunteers did the same thing, from the group you were with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ones that were assigned to the cooperative program, which would have made majority. Not very many at all. I don't, I don't know of any that actually changed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so it wasn't common."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:513", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4491946173862607, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The ones that were assigned to the cooperative program, which would have made majority. Not very many at all. I don't, I don't know of any that actually changed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so it wasn't common."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Within my agency, there were the engineer. He might have. There was another one that was community development. He lasted with him, but he got, actually he found a job. He got aligned himself with the union of banana workers who were pretty involved with social activism."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a different part of the country. So he didn't really work with the, he did officially, but I think he got to where he was working with the union."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because if half the volunteers were, you know, coming in and saying."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:517", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.036042737513902, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a different part of the country. So he didn't really work with the, he did officially, but I think he got to where he was working with the union."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because if half the volunteers were, you know, coming in and saying."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In my agency, there's three or four of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then I moved into the capital city and then within a month I go over to this, the National Co-operative Development Agency, to work as an extensionist. Basically there I went to visit co-ops and help them out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Throughout the country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:519", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.26226970834878, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In my agency, there's three or four of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then I moved into the capital city and then within a month I go over to this, the National Co-operative Development Agency, to work as an extensionist. Basically there I went to visit co-ops and help them out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Throughout the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Throughout the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You base being?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:521", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.513633009276422, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So then I moved into the capital city and then within a month I go over to this, the National Co-operative Development Agency, to work as an extensionist. Basically there I went to visit co-ops and help them out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Throughout the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Throughout the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You base being?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tegucigalpa, the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who arranged your living and everything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:523", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.792925565862691, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Throughout the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You base being?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tegucigalpa, the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who arranged your living and everything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I arranged my own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And then you finally said to the Peace Corps, this is my new assignment. I'll be doing this."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:525", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.103250628736323, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tegucigalpa, the capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who arranged your living and everything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I arranged my own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. And then you finally said to the Peace Corps, this is my new assignment. I'll be doing this."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had to get permission to the Peace Corps to be able to do this transfer. And they were very willing because they knew what was going on. And they probably had a volunteer in this agency before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in a sense then, what was the justification of your leaving where you were?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:529", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.831173615723855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had to get permission to the Peace Corps to be able to do this transfer. And they were very willing because they knew what was going on. And they probably had a volunteer in this agency before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, in a sense then, what was the justification of your leaving where you were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Leaving the countryside?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No real job, no real support from the agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Okay. So there was no thought of your being replaced?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:531", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.256859573026506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Leaving the countryside?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No real job, no real support from the agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Okay. So there was no thought of your being replaced?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how about the ag co-op friend?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:533", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.72984397002945, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No real job, no real support from the agency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay. Okay. So there was no thought of your being replaced?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how about the ag co-op friend?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he stayed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He stayed. Okay. Yeah. So you have a new job now, and it gets you traveling all over the country."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:535", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.255382188921612, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how about the ag co-op friend?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he stayed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He stayed. Okay. Yeah. So you have a new job now, and it gets you traveling all over the country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By foot, by horse, by?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:537", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.728202432135124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he stayed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He stayed. Okay. Yeah. So you have a new job now, and it gets you traveling all over the country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By foot, by horse, by?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jeep. There wasn't enough money to do it more than once a month. I ended up going out twice a month in a jeep. And then I would occasionally go by bus. But it was basically within a day's drive. And sometimes I would park the jeep and get on a burro and go to the small villages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were the visits arranged in advance?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:539", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.253558257927915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By foot, by horse, by?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jeep. There wasn't enough money to do it more than once a month. I ended up going out twice a month in a jeep. And then I would occasionally go by bus. But it was basically within a day's drive. And sometimes I would park the jeep and get on a burro and go to the small villages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were the visits arranged in advance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what would, what was the occasion of your coming to a place and what did you do when you were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:545", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.206527102781775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The occasion usually was there would be a co-op that requested help. Of course, they're always requesting help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And how often could the agency afford to send them out there to help them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With their budget. Well, at least to have another city like mine could have it and a certain extent that was, they would access the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who approved your itinerary or where you were going?\n\nWell, the meeting boss and his boss and the director.\n\nAnd they were all Honduran?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:549", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.785835929360216, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With their budget. Well, at least to have another city like mine could have it and a certain extent that was, they would access the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who approved your itinerary or where you were going?\n\nWell, the meeting boss and his boss and the director.\n\nAnd they were all Honduran?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There were three levels of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the fourth level down, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your feeling about the work you did during the second year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:551", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.65092881040024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There were three levels of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the fourth level down, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your feeling about the work you did during the second year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Much more rewarding. I felt I was being, doing something valuable and being kept busy at something a little more specific."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when there was a co-op with a problem, you felt your showing up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:553", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.612143122666932, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the fourth level down, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your feeling about the work you did during the second year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Much more rewarding. I felt I was being, doing something valuable and being kept busy at something a little more specific."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when there was a co-op with a problem, you felt your showing up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Helped, yeah. Took some time to show them, reiterate that this is how you figure out simple interest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:555", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.457936802963257, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Much more rewarding. I felt I was being, doing something valuable and being kept busy at something a little more specific."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when there was a co-op with a problem, you felt your showing up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Helped, yeah. Took some time to show them, reiterate that this is how you figure out simple interest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, paper and pencil. You're dealing with people that have three, third and fourth. Maybe the person who was elected treasurer of the co-op had a fifth grade education. [phone rings]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any other travel during your, well, more in your second year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:557", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.397707558848063, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Helped, yeah. Took some time to show them, reiterate that this is how you figure out simple interest."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, paper and pencil. You're dealing with people that have three, third and fourth. Maybe the person who was elected treasurer of the co-op had a fifth grade education. [phone rings]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any other travel during your, well, more in your second year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did have leave time coming."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:561", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.13297229487415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did have leave time coming."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, after, um, let's see, I got sworn in as a volunteer in May. So in November I went to Argentina to get married."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was another."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is during your first year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:567", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.242760349621606, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is my first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So actually I got a whole month off which theoretically I couldn't get that till after the first year, but I got permission for that. And that was a little bit of a, um, navigating through the Peace Corps bureaucracy. Because, you know, marrying a host country national was, all right, how are you going to support yourself? And usually that was pretty self-evident to somebody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But marrying another American, of course, would be, they discouraged that highly. And I think they got a little looser on it as time went on. But they did ask legitimate questions. How are you going to support, I mean, you're given $100, started out at $125 a month. And I think in the capital city it was $150. How are you going to support your wife? Well, so the director of the school, of the high school there in the small town, said that they're always looking for an English teacher because the lady that taught English didn't want to continue doing it. We became friends with her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, what small town is this, where you were living?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:569", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.714178166246229, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So actually I got a whole month off which theoretically I couldn't get that till after the first year, but I got permission for that. And that was a little bit of a, um, navigating through the Peace Corps bureaucracy. Because, you know, marrying a host country national was, all right, how are you going to support yourself? And usually that was pretty self-evident to somebody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But marrying another American, of course, would be, they discouraged that highly. And I think they got a little looser on it as time went on. But they did ask legitimate questions. How are you going to support, I mean, you're given $100, started out at $125 a month. And I think in the capital city it was $150. How are you going to support your wife? Well, so the director of the school, of the high school there in the small town, said that they're always looking for an English teacher because the lady that taught English didn't want to continue doing it. We became friends with her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, what small town is this, where you were living?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where I was living the first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, the first year. Oh, that's right. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:573", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.70886193363732, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where I was living the first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, the first year. Oh, that's right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "November."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was seven months into my first year. And so my wife had a job lined up teaching English. So that was. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You're talking about your marriage."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:575", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.232068815152577, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "November."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was seven months into my first year. And so my wife had a job lined up teaching English. So that was. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You're talking about your marriage."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got married, and my wife taught at the school. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My apologies. We're okay. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:579", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.224776315003182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got married, and my wife taught at the school. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "My apologies. We're okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My wife taught English then for, what, five or six months? I mean, she had to, I think she had to do the same thing, prove that we were able to support ourselves in the capital. And she actually called the, uh, the binational center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She started off teaching that. And then she got a job at a bilingual elementary school and made twice as much as I did, at least."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Your second year, you pretty much described. As you came, you know, within three months of time to terminate, did you have any sense of you need to accomplish X to have some feeling of closure about what your?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:585", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.055934588481731, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, I did not because it was like the closure was, usually it was a day at a time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In some cases it was working with groups and formation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For co-ops in the Tegucigalpa area. So in some of those cases, you would want to try to terminate something. But in general, in general, uh, there was a British volunteer that had come to work there probably six months after I did, and he was going to continue. So I thought he going to take over some of the projects anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you able to recommend that you be replaced with another volunteer, or did they ask you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:589", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.476462454915716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For co-ops in the Tegucigalpa area. So in some of those cases, you would want to try to terminate something. But in general, in general, uh, there was a British volunteer that had come to work there probably six months after I did, and he was going to continue. So I thought he going to take over some of the projects anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you able to recommend that you be replaced with another volunteer, or did they ask you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, I don't think I was more than once asked that, but I probably said yes, it was something legitimate to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I can't recall if I was replaced. I was not immediately replaced. There was no program coming in right away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And during the second year, there were no further political problems or were there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:591", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.0849582832396845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, I don't think I was more than once asked that, but I probably said yes, it was something legitimate to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I can't recall if I was replaced. I was not immediately replaced. There was no program coming in right away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And during the second year, there were no further political problems or were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there were not. The border with El Salvador was still closed to Hondurans. But, I don't know, two or three months after the war they reopened the border for third country nationals to travel. Of course, this was the end of the, they had started the Central American Common Market and the war was the, I think they formally just stopped being a central common market on the 1st of January 1970. I know that they changed some things because. So anyway. That was one of the nails in the coffin of that kind of market."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you came to the end, now you're a married man, which you hadn't been going in. What were your plans, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:593", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.761064759155205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I can't recall if I was replaced. I was not immediately replaced. There was no program coming in right away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And during the second year, there were no further political problems or were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there were not. The border with El Salvador was still closed to Hondurans. But, I don't know, two or three months after the war they reopened the border for third country nationals to travel. Of course, this was the end of the, they had started the Central American Common Market and the war was the, I think they formally just stopped being a central common market on the 1st of January 1970. I know that they changed some things because. So anyway. That was one of the nails in the coffin of that kind of market."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you came to the end, now you're a married man, which you hadn't been going in. What were your plans, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The draft was clearly less of a concern."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:595", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.5122941768391165, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there were not. The border with El Salvador was still closed to Hondurans. But, I don't know, two or three months after the war they reopened the border for third country nationals to travel. Of course, this was the end of the, they had started the Central American Common Market and the war was the, I think they formally just stopped being a central common market on the 1st of January 1970. I know that they changed some things because. So anyway. That was one of the nails in the coffin of that kind of market."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you came to the end, now you're a married man, which you hadn't been going in. What were your plans, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The draft was clearly less of a concern."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had found out in November on my honeymoon I found that I had a fairly high number in the draft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the lottery."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:597", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.34699352982124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The draft was clearly less of a concern."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had found out in November on my honeymoon I found that I had a fairly high number in the draft."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the lottery."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lottery, the draft lottery. It wasn't clear whether or not they would get to 277 or not, but it became clear that I wasn't going to be drafted. And so that was a weight off my shoulder. And then what we were going to do, and I guess mainly what I wanted to do was to get a job. Well, I was interested in being a Peace Corps trainer, and I pursued that and begun a job as a Peace Corps trainer in Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you hired from the field or did you go back to Washington and have to go through a round of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:603", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.746218833773989, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was hired from the field."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I knew about it fairly close to, I extended a month past the May to June so my wife finished the school year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was no big deal for me to extend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your group have a termination conference in country? Do you recall the whole group coming together maybe a month before you were leaving?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:605", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.606909815304432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I knew about it fairly close to, I extended a month past the May to June so my wife finished the school year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was no big deal for me to extend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your group have a termination conference in country? Do you recall the whole group coming together maybe a month before you were leaving?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe we did. I think we met after a year and I don't remember meeting again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. It could be."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:607", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.2298997947827015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was no big deal for me to extend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your group have a termination conference in country? Do you recall the whole group coming together maybe a month before you were leaving?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe we did. I think we met after a year and I don't remember meeting again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. It could be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I know there were interviews because I went by the Peace Corps office once or twice a week. My office was a five minute walk away or a ten minute walk away from the Peace Corps office. I was there pretty often, so it was probably just a formality to have an exit conference, whereas other volunteers, of course, would come in from their sites and pass through for two or three days. I guess I did that, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So as you were leaving after two years, what was your sense of what you had accomplished or what did it, you know, what it all meant?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:611", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.456666413311977, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I know there were interviews because I went by the Peace Corps office once or twice a week. My office was a five minute walk away or a ten minute walk away from the Peace Corps office. I was there pretty often, so it was probably just a formality to have an exit conference, whereas other volunteers, of course, would come in from their sites and pass through for two or three days. I guess I did that, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So as you were leaving after two years, what was your sense of what you had accomplished or what did it, you know, what it all meant?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess that I accomplished something that had been, the second year. The first year was, it was too bad that it took that long, the time to realize I wasn't going to accomplish anything. And with the years have gone by and having seen what other Peace Corps volunteers have done in we'll say similar circumstances, some did a lot more, a lot more in circumstances like that. I wasn't in this for site work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's my personality. And I felt good about what I had done with it the second year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And your Spanish must have been quite good."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:613", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.174073792568863, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I guess that I accomplished something that had been, the second year. The first year was, it was too bad that it took that long, the time to realize I wasn't going to accomplish anything. And with the years have gone by and having seen what other Peace Corps volunteers have done in we'll say similar circumstances, some did a lot more, a lot more in circumstances like that. I wasn't in this for site work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's my personality. And I felt good about what I had done with it the second year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And your Spanish must have been quite good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was three plus or four minus, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they test you again toward the end? Sometimes they do."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:617", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.856881225393657, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was three plus or four minus, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they test you again toward the end? Sometimes they do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They tested us I think at the year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They tested us and I was three plus, four minus? I was better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did they seek you out for a trainer job?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:621", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.934421265918093, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They tested us and I was three plus, four minus? I was better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why did they seek you out for a trainer job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know. I sought it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or I heard about it. I don't recall on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, did you have a chance to come back or to the U.S.?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:623", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.593801406575659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know. I sought it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or I heard about it. I don't recall on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, did you have a chance to come back or to the U.S.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I had a car the last six months I was there, and my brothers had driven down in December of, uh, about five, six months before I was to end. About six months because I knew I could get a permit for six months. The problem, it just turned out I got a month extension, I think. And so especially the car was my wife's because the Peace Corps volunteer wasn't supposed to have a car, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course not. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:625", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.326446007306288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or I heard about it. I don't recall on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, did you have a chance to come back or to the U.S.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I had a car the last six months I was there, and my brothers had driven down in December of, uh, about five, six months before I was to end. About six months because I knew I could get a permit for six months. The problem, it just turned out I got a month extension, I think. And so especially the car was my wife's because the Peace Corps volunteer wasn't supposed to have a car, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course not. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we could afford it. We used the car usually on the weekends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, I know you didn't drive to Puerto Rico."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:627", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.140495563673653, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I had a car the last six months I was there, and my brothers had driven down in December of, uh, about five, six months before I was to end. About six months because I knew I could get a permit for six months. The problem, it just turned out I got a month extension, I think. And so especially the car was my wife's because the Peace Corps volunteer wasn't supposed to have a car, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course not. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we could afford it. We used the car usually on the weekends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, I know you didn't drive to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You came back up to the U.S. and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:629", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.044995070748502, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But we could afford it. We used the car usually on the weekends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, I know you didn't drive to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You came back up to the U.S. and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We drove up from Honduras to Wisconsin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:631", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.93888341194278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You came back up to the U.S. and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We drove up from Honduras to Wisconsin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess about two weeks to do it. And obviously flew back to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now in going down to Puerto Rico, you and your wife went?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:633", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.82098156882531, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We drove up from Honduras to Wisconsin."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess about two weeks to do it. And obviously flew back to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now in going down to Puerto Rico, you and your wife went?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually, I went ahead by a few weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did you live at the camp?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:635", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.578868409805899, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess about two weeks to do it. And obviously flew back to Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now in going down to Puerto Rico, you and your wife went?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually, I went ahead by a few weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did you live at the camp?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the Peace Corps trainers had stopped being at the camp, I don't know, a year before that, the year after I left the camp, and was in Ponce, the second city of Puerto Rico. And the Catholic University there had the contract and I think it was their old campus or their high school that was used, a couple of buildings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was, how long were you there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:637", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.309853788673221, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually, I went ahead by a few weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Did you live at the camp?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the Peace Corps trainers had stopped being at the camp, I don't know, a year before that, the year after I left the camp, and was in Ponce, the second city of Puerto Rico. And the Catholic University there had the contract and I think it was their old campus or their high school that was used, a couple of buildings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was, how long were you there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there six months. So two different three-month contracts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what groups were coming through?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:639", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.899837542970245, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the Peace Corps trainers had stopped being at the camp, I don't know, a year before that, the year after I left the camp, and was in Ponce, the second city of Puerto Rico. And the Catholic University there had the contract and I think it was their old campus or their high school that was used, a couple of buildings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was, how long were you there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there six months. So two different three-month contracts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what groups were coming through?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a Honduras group similar to what I've done. Nicaragua. Um. I know I worked with Central American groups."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your role in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:647", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.881172904999611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got to do something about the complaints that our group had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got involved in cross-cultural stuff also. Cross-cultural training, technical training, and language training. And of course, we got the language teachers when we could involved in the cross-cultural stuff also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that speaks to how I viewed it, they might have called it something different. So, uh. And actually in a way, two different groups, it wasn't a full three months. Preparing for them and preparing for the next group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the six months back to the U.S.?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:649", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.7568587833329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got involved in cross-cultural stuff also. Cross-cultural training, technical training, and language training. And of course, we got the language teachers when we could involved in the cross-cultural stuff also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that speaks to how I viewed it, they might have called it something different. So, uh. And actually in a way, two different groups, it wasn't a full three months. Preparing for them and preparing for the next group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the six months back to the U.S.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "After six months, we, uh, my daughter was born there in Puerto Rico as my service was ending. And then we went to Argentina from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, and how long did you live in Argentina?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:651", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.618731981481, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that speaks to how I viewed it, they might have called it something different. So, uh. And actually in a way, two different groups, it wasn't a full three months. Preparing for them and preparing for the next group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after the six months back to the U.S.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "After six months, we, uh, my daughter was born there in Puerto Rico as my service was ending. And then we went to Argentina from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, and how long did you live in Argentina?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Five months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we're now in San Antonio."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:655", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.060162940100001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Five months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we're now in San Antonio."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we came back and we lived in, uh, got a job in California and worked there for six months, then went to Florida for 13 years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And been here since 1986."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you particularly tried to be in touch with or recontact people you worked with in Honduras?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:659", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.3829172100000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And been here since 1986."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you particularly tried to be in touch with or recontact people you worked with in Honduras?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, some. But there's one person I maintain contact with that, uh, I guess I'll see him in November."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was in my general area of the country. He'd some and see us once or twice, once a month maybe. He was single, so he'd visit more often than other volunteers who were married. It turned out that he extended the third year in Colombia, and then we visited him on the way to Argentina from Puerto Rico. Then six months or eight months after we left from each of our country. And then his roommate, his Peace Corps roommate there in Colombia, came to Miami where we were living by then. And we became best friends. He was a Peace Corps volunteer in Colombia and became a best friend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How would you assess, you know, the effect of Peace Corps on your life and the things you've done?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:661", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7587969000000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, some. But there's one person I maintain contact with that, uh, I guess I'll see him in November."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was in my general area of the country. He'd some and see us once or twice, once a month maybe. He was single, so he'd visit more often than other volunteers who were married. It turned out that he extended the third year in Colombia, and then we visited him on the way to Argentina from Puerto Rico. Then six months or eight months after we left from each of our country. And then his roommate, his Peace Corps roommate there in Colombia, came to Miami where we were living by then. And we became best friends. He was a Peace Corps volunteer in Colombia and became a best friend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How would you assess, you know, the effect of Peace Corps on your life and the things you've done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I would say it was pretty important in my life and it affected me in what I wanted to do. I enjoyed working with people. I worked for the YMCA for 17 years. I worked in another nonprofit for a while and now I'm a business consultant, so I'm helping people with businesses. So yeah, I guess people-oriented businesses."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You never went into teaching?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:663", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.1764410000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was in my general area of the country. He'd some and see us once or twice, once a month maybe. He was single, so he'd visit more often than other volunteers who were married. It turned out that he extended the third year in Colombia, and then we visited him on the way to Argentina from Puerto Rico. Then six months or eight months after we left from each of our country. And then his roommate, his Peace Corps roommate there in Colombia, came to Miami where we were living by then. And we became best friends. He was a Peace Corps volunteer in Colombia and became a best friend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How would you assess, you know, the effect of Peace Corps on your life and the things you've done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I would say it was pretty important in my life and it affected me in what I wanted to do. I enjoyed working with people. I worked for the YMCA for 17 years. I worked in another nonprofit for a while and now I'm a business consultant, so I'm helping people with businesses. So yeah, I guess people-oriented businesses."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You never went into teaching?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I teach workshops now, but it's not really teaching."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, yeah, it's special. Anything else you'd like to add to the story?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:671", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in a war, which I related already. A real war, around it. But my favorite story in Honduras was, I mentioned earlier that we had franking privileges. I call it franking privileges."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could send free telegrams, but we had to do it in Spanish. They would charge us if they had foreign words and then they'd charge you double whatever the rate was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, near the end of my time in Catacamas in the rural area, one day the telegraph boy knocked on my door and said, you have a phone call. I said, I do? Where? He says, oh, it's at the telegraph office. Because usually they would deliver a telegram to you. You don't have to go to the telegraph office. And I said, okay, what do I need? Oh, we have to go there. All right. So I went there and I saw that they had a telephone, actually, and it was a sign that there was a phone. So then they rang up, I don't know. I said, who called me? And they said, well, it was from down the road at the departmental capital, which was about 30 miles away. The Peace Corps volunteers down there were calling.\n\nAnd so I said, well, wait, we'll call. And they lived fairly close to the telegraph office also. So about five or 10 minutes later they got on the phone and we talked. I think we talked for 3 minutes, and they had up a sign that said 3 minutes, $1 or one lempira. And then I said, well, one lempira will it be? And they said, no, it's two because you spoke in English. And I said, what? I went like that. What do you mean? They just started laughing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Just to mention, your daughter became a Peace Corps volunteer."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:673", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could send free telegrams, but we had to do it in Spanish. They would charge us if they had foreign words and then they'd charge you double whatever the rate was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, near the end of my time in Catacamas in the rural area, one day the telegraph boy knocked on my door and said, you have a phone call. I said, I do? Where? He says, oh, it's at the telegraph office. Because usually they would deliver a telegram to you. You don't have to go to the telegraph office. And I said, okay, what do I need? Oh, we have to go there. All right. So I went there and I saw that they had a telephone, actually, and it was a sign that there was a phone. So then they rang up, I don't know. I said, who called me? And they said, well, it was from down the road at the departmental capital, which was about 30 miles away. The Peace Corps volunteers down there were calling.\n\nAnd so I said, well, wait, we'll call. And they lived fairly close to the telegraph office also. So about five or 10 minutes later they got on the phone and we talked. I think we talked for 3 minutes, and they had up a sign that said 3 minutes, $1 or one lempira. And then I said, well, one lempira will it be? And they said, no, it's two because you spoke in English. And I said, what? I went like that. What do you mean? They just started laughing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Just to mention, your daughter became a Peace Corps volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, my daughter became a Peace Corps volunteer in Paraguay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it, did it surprise you or is it part of the family tradition that it happened or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:677", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, my daughter became a Peace Corps volunteer in Paraguay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it, did it surprise you or is it part of the family tradition that it happened or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did not surprise us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it surprised us how tough she turned out to be in a situation similar to what I had. And she did a lot more than I did in the less than two years there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'd love, there'll be an interview with her."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:679", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did not surprise us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it surprised us how tough she turned out to be in a situation similar to what I had. And she did a lot more than I did in the less than two years there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'd love, there'll be an interview with her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we're proud of her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your grandchildren of course, you look forward to, perhaps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00208:681", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it surprised us how tough she turned out to be in a situation similar to what I had. And she did a lot more than I did in the less than two years there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'd love, there'll be an interview with her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we're proud of her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your grandchildren of course, you look forward to, perhaps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Perhaps we'll join up when my grandson goes in the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Anything else?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00688:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 5.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a good day. It was kind of a memory of a lifetime. Yes, I’m good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The COTS program allowed you an opportunity as such a small and a young company, and these last five, six years have been so full. What kind of impact do you think that this opportunity has had on your company, to put you where you want to be for the future?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We would not be the company that we are today without the support of NASA. I think both technically as well as financially, and the kind of moral support. I don’t know what the world would look like without that program for SpaceX. It would look very different. We wouldn’t have this beautiful factory; we wouldn’t have this lovely conference room with these incredibly comfortable chairs. Yes, this is as much NASA as it is SpaceX here. We’d probably be limping along, trying to change the world, but limping instead of running."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you feel from what you’ve learned these last years that you are in a position now to possibly even change the market more?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, there’s no question. No question, we already have. As a matter of fact, last year any commercial mission that was competed in the Falcon 9 class we won. Here in the U.S. and overseas. So NASA helped develop a capability where the U.S. can finally regain dominance in launch. We owned it in the ’80s and the early ’90s, and we just let it go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rebecca, do you have some questions?\n\nOne thing I wanted to ask—your role is officially the business manager, business developer. But you’re also very technically competent; you have degrees in engineering. Did that impact the way that you interacted with NASA? I have to imagine it helped in the negotiations."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00973:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 55.56348433, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s true. I mean, we have our hurricane problems here but not like y’all. No, it never entered my mind. I wanted to work in wind tunnels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that—that you wanted to be an aerospace engineer, but your father was an electrical engineer. Was it moving here and seeing the wind tunnels that made you want to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Hell, if we had stayed in Tennessee, I’d would probably have ended up driving a milk truck. That wouldn’t have pleased my father, but, for some reason, I wasn’t doing that well. Right after moving up here, I started getting A’s in math. Maybe the teachers were easier up here than they were in Tennessee. If I had been a 23- or 24-year old, very ambitious engineer with maybe delusions of grandeur, I might have done something like that, but I don’t like change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that the NACA was more under the radar. I know, once NASA came into being, there was more tension to anything involved with NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You had to succeed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that change the work environment as far as what you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00973:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 60.6260937, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Hell, if we had stayed in Tennessee, I’d would probably have ended up driving a milk truck. That wouldn’t have pleased my father, but, for some reason, I wasn’t doing that well. Right after moving up here, I started getting A’s in math. Maybe the teachers were easier up here than they were in Tennessee. If I had been a 23- or 24-year old, very ambitious engineer with maybe delusions of grandeur, I might have done something like that, but I don’t like change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that the NACA was more under the radar. I know, once NASA came into being, there was more tension to anything involved with NASA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You had to succeed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that change the work environment as far as what you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because, again, the areas I worked with, even though it was hypersonic blowdown tunnel and we were modifying the tunnel, of course, we had the system now. We could see the flow. It was like we had our own toy to play with. Like I said, the models are like this. They’re much, much smaller. Langley pioneered in strain gauge balances no bigger than your finger that you could use. Over at the Free Flight Tunnel, the balances were these big, box-like things, but it was stuff I couldn’t tear up. These little balances are easy to break and tear up. Every day was something new in a helium tunnel. It really was. It disappoints me that they don’t give it the credit, but I’ll tell you one thing, Gene Love gave it the credit. He wanted that tunnel going with him. That man was really special."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Through your years here, the technology changed quite a bit from using human computers to actual computers."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 29.693333821857543, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re welcome."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d like to begin by asking you how closely you followed the fledgling space program in the late 1950s and early ‘60s."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not really very close. In the late ‘50s, I was basically working on the Mississippi River for the Corps of Engineers as a part of a river revetment team, and I was working as a clerk at that time. I wasn’t in school or anything else.\\n\\n And then in 1960, I decided to go back and go to college, and I didn’t follow the space program directly very much until my senior year when I was looking around for employment post graduation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your college studies prepare you for your eventual career at MSC [Manned Spacecraft Center]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well. I spent four years at Christian Brothers College in Memphis [Tennessee], and it was primarily at that time an engineering school, and I had a very good background in theoretical engineering from an electrical engineering standpoint with specialties in automatic control systems. And that, in fact, is what I spent the first part of my career at NASA doing is working with automated control systems for the onboard Apollo and, later on, Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you describe what automatic controls are in a general sense?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 31.881482024286157, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not really very close. In the late ‘50s, I was basically working on the Mississippi River for the Corps of Engineers as a part of a river revetment team, and I was working as a clerk at that time. I wasn’t in school or anything else.\\n\\n And then in 1960, I decided to go back and go to college, and I didn’t follow the space program directly very much until my senior year when I was looking around for employment post graduation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your college studies prepare you for your eventual career at MSC [Manned Spacecraft Center]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well. I spent four years at Christian Brothers College in Memphis [Tennessee], and it was primarily at that time an engineering school, and I had a very good background in theoretical engineering from an electrical engineering standpoint with specialties in automatic control systems. And that, in fact, is what I spent the first part of my career at NASA doing is working with automated control systems for the onboard Apollo and, later on, Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you describe what automatic controls are in a general sense?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, automatic controls are set up and they are not necessarily there to entirely replace a crew, but they are there to enhance their capability. They basically pick up signals from sensors on the vehicle and feed those through processing to make sure that the vehicle is stable and moving where you want it to move. And so they pick up signals and through their processing, give you control commands to take the craft wherever you want to do it. They are not just for spacecraft. They are for any kind of craft. You have automatic controls in your cars these days that do things.\\n\\n I’m more of an egghead theoretical type of guy from a math standpoint, so my interests were in design, and as I matured, I got into the hardware development and hardware testing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find out about the job opportunity at the Manned Spacecraft Center?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 30.979424471429063, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very well. I spent four years at Christian Brothers College in Memphis [Tennessee], and it was primarily at that time an engineering school, and I had a very good background in theoretical engineering from an electrical engineering standpoint with specialties in automatic control systems. And that, in fact, is what I spent the first part of my career at NASA doing is working with automated control systems for the onboard Apollo and, later on, Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you describe what automatic controls are in a general sense?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, automatic controls are set up and they are not necessarily there to entirely replace a crew, but they are there to enhance their capability. They basically pick up signals from sensors on the vehicle and feed those through processing to make sure that the vehicle is stable and moving where you want it to move. And so they pick up signals and through their processing, give you control commands to take the craft wherever you want to do it. They are not just for spacecraft. They are for any kind of craft. You have automatic controls in your cars these days that do things.\\n\\n I’m more of an egghead theoretical type of guy from a math standpoint, so my interests were in design, and as I matured, I got into the hardware development and hardware testing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find out about the job opportunity at the Manned Spacecraft Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A guy named Burney Goodwin came to our school to interview is how I got originally acquainted with the, at that time, Manned Spacecraft Center, and I interviewed with him, and then he went on back to Houston [Texas], and I got a call from a guy named David [A.] Beckman, who ultimately offered me a position, and I accepted, to go to work in June of 1964."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the position you were offered?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 29.977138301587846, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, automatic controls are set up and they are not necessarily there to entirely replace a crew, but they are there to enhance their capability. They basically pick up signals from sensors on the vehicle and feed those through processing to make sure that the vehicle is stable and moving where you want it to move. And so they pick up signals and through their processing, give you control commands to take the craft wherever you want to do it. They are not just for spacecraft. They are for any kind of craft. You have automatic controls in your cars these days that do things.\\n\\n I’m more of an egghead theoretical type of guy from a math standpoint, so my interests were in design, and as I matured, I got into the hardware development and hardware testing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you find out about the job opportunity at the Manned Spacecraft Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A guy named Burney Goodwin came to our school to interview is how I got originally acquainted with the, at that time, Manned Spacecraft Center, and I interviewed with him, and then he went on back to Houston [Texas], and I got a call from a guy named David [A.] Beckman, who ultimately offered me a position, and I accepted, to go to work in June of 1964."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the position you were offered?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The position that I was offered was basically an electronic systems planning guy over in what was at that time the Flight Control Division in the Operations Directorate. After I got there, I found out that wasn’t my cup of tea. They were taking systems that were already developed and tested and defining their use in the operations, and I was more interested in theoretical. So after I was there for about six months, I transferred into the Engineering Directorate to get involved with the basic design and development activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you first live when you first came to Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 32.196820335097605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A guy named Burney Goodwin came to our school to interview is how I got originally acquainted with the, at that time, Manned Spacecraft Center, and I interviewed with him, and then he went on back to Houston [Texas], and I got a call from a guy named David [A.] Beckman, who ultimately offered me a position, and I accepted, to go to work in June of 1964."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the position you were offered?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The position that I was offered was basically an electronic systems planning guy over in what was at that time the Flight Control Division in the Operations Directorate. After I got there, I found out that wasn’t my cup of tea. They were taking systems that were already developed and tested and defining their use in the operations, and I was more interested in theoretical. So after I was there for about six months, I transferred into the Engineering Directorate to get involved with the basic design and development activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you first live when you first came to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived over off of Navigation and 75th Street in a boardinghouse."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did a lot of people live in boardinghouses when they first came to Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 30.218689261219563, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The position that I was offered was basically an electronic systems planning guy over in what was at that time the Flight Control Division in the Operations Directorate. After I got there, I found out that wasn’t my cup of tea. They were taking systems that were already developed and tested and defining their use in the operations, and I was more interested in theoretical. So after I was there for about six months, I transferred into the Engineering Directorate to get involved with the basic design and development activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you first live when you first came to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived over off of Navigation and 75th Street in a boardinghouse."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did a lot of people live in boardinghouses when they first came to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they lived almost anywhere they could get. Getting an apartment at that time was tough because there weren’t enough apartments around. So I lived in a boardinghouse for a couple of months, and then I got an apartment at the [Glenview] Apartments just south of Gulfgate on the Gulf Freeway, and I stayed there for, oh, about two and a half years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came down, was the Center open? Was the Engineering Directorate onsite at that point, or still offsite?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.354099179132845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived over off of Navigation and 75th Street in a boardinghouse."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did a lot of people live in boardinghouses when they first came to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they lived almost anywhere they could get. Getting an apartment at that time was tough because there weren’t enough apartments around. So I lived in a boardinghouse for a couple of months, and then I got an apartment at the [Glenview] Apartments just south of Gulfgate on the Gulf Freeway, and I stayed there for, oh, about two and a half years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came down, was the Center open? Was the Engineering Directorate onsite at that point, or still offsite?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I got there, I went to work down at Wayside Drive in what was then an Oshman’s building, which was across the street from the Houston Petroleum Center, and I went to work there one week, and the next week I ended up moving into Building 30 onsite. At that time, I was in the Flight Control Division.\\n\\n When I arrived in Houston, I reported to work at what was then Building 2, is now Building 1, in Room 960. It was full of people, and everybody got signed up and basically were sent out to report to where they would work. So I ended up going back in to Houston and working for about a week at the HPC Oshman’s warehouse complex there at Wayside Drive. Then I moved into Building 30, and I stayed in Building 30 until I moved over into Building 16, which was the engineering building at that time, the Guidance and Control Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you moved over to the Engineering Directorate, who was your boss at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.50455464348094, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they lived almost anywhere they could get. Getting an apartment at that time was tough because there weren’t enough apartments around. So I lived in a boardinghouse for a couple of months, and then I got an apartment at the [Glenview] Apartments just south of Gulfgate on the Gulf Freeway, and I stayed there for, oh, about two and a half years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came down, was the Center open? Was the Engineering Directorate onsite at that point, or still offsite?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I got there, I went to work down at Wayside Drive in what was then an Oshman’s building, which was across the street from the Houston Petroleum Center, and I went to work there one week, and the next week I ended up moving into Building 30 onsite. At that time, I was in the Flight Control Division.\\n\\n When I arrived in Houston, I reported to work at what was then Building 2, is now Building 1, in Room 960. It was full of people, and everybody got signed up and basically were sent out to report to where they would work. So I ended up going back in to Houston and working for about a week at the HPC Oshman’s warehouse complex there at Wayside Drive. Then I moved into Building 30, and I stayed in Building 30 until I moved over into Building 16, which was the engineering building at that time, the Guidance and Control Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you moved over to the Engineering Directorate, who was your boss at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My immediate supervisor at that point was Tom [Thomas P.] Lins, and my Branch Chief at that time was Kenneth [J.] Cox, and that basically was my chain of command for quite a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first assignment when you started working in the Directorate?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.7828384927566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I got there, I went to work down at Wayside Drive in what was then an Oshman’s building, which was across the street from the Houston Petroleum Center, and I went to work there one week, and the next week I ended up moving into Building 30 onsite. At that time, I was in the Flight Control Division.\\n\\n When I arrived in Houston, I reported to work at what was then Building 2, is now Building 1, in Room 960. It was full of people, and everybody got signed up and basically were sent out to report to where they would work. So I ended up going back in to Houston and working for about a week at the HPC Oshman’s warehouse complex there at Wayside Drive. Then I moved into Building 30, and I stayed in Building 30 until I moved over into Building 16, which was the engineering building at that time, the Guidance and Control Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you moved over to the Engineering Directorate, who was your boss at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My immediate supervisor at that point was Tom [Thomas P.] Lins, and my Branch Chief at that time was Kenneth [J.] Cox, and that basically was my chain of command for quite a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first assignment when you started working in the Directorate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess my first assignment was to help a guy put together a simulation of the lunar landing module, a guy named, and another name for you, Clarke [T.] Hackler was the guy that I was assisting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did that entail, creating this simulation?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.203153880840667, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My immediate supervisor at that point was Tom [Thomas P.] Lins, and my Branch Chief at that time was Kenneth [J.] Cox, and that basically was my chain of command for quite a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your first assignment when you started working in the Directorate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess my first assignment was to help a guy put together a simulation of the lunar landing module, a guy named, and another name for you, Clarke [T.] Hackler was the guy that I was assisting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did that entail, creating this simulation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, basically, the simulation was already created, and my job was to help him run it. At that time, I didn’t have enough experience to put together a simulation. This was a learning experience, and basically at that time, contrary to what you’ve got now, we were working with analog computers and learning to put the equations of motion and the hardware simulations on those type of elements. That all evolved to the point where eventually we tied some digitals into the analog systems, and that’s basically where we were with some few exceptions when we landed on the Moon. That was our technology base for the Moon’s lunar landing, was analog and hybrid simulations. We didn’t have digital simulations with high-speed computers like they do today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned actually in the previous interview that you did in ’99 that you helped develop the techniques for building the digital simulators."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 26.892393200934073, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess my first assignment was to help a guy put together a simulation of the lunar landing module, a guy named, and another name for you, Clarke [T.] Hackler was the guy that I was assisting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did that entail, creating this simulation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, basically, the simulation was already created, and my job was to help him run it. At that time, I didn’t have enough experience to put together a simulation. This was a learning experience, and basically at that time, contrary to what you’ve got now, we were working with analog computers and learning to put the equations of motion and the hardware simulations on those type of elements. That all evolved to the point where eventually we tied some digitals into the analog systems, and that’s basically where we were with some few exceptions when we landed on the Moon. That was our technology base for the Moon’s lunar landing, was analog and hybrid simulations. We didn’t have digital simulations with high-speed computers like they do today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned actually in the previous interview that you did in ’99 that you helped develop the techniques for building the digital simulators."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us what was involved in that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.228080149446397, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Basically, the West Coast model was a technique where if you knew the frequency, you would design what’s called a shaping filter that would filter out that frequency in the feedback system. The problem with that technique is that you have to know the frequency within a certain bandwidth or you have a very difficult problem of filtering out that signal. On the East Coast, the technique was, okay, I can’t know the frequency that well, but I know the damping characteristics of this, I know how it’s phased, so I won’t try to eliminate that frequency, but I’ll try to actively control that frequency. And that was basically the two different techniques. One tried to wipe out the signal out of the feedback system; the other one took that signal and reshaped it so that it didn’t feed back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about the verification testing and quality control testing of these automatic controls?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, okay, that went all the way from basically hand analysis to digital computer analysis to simulation analysis to actually buying and implementing the hardware and putting it together in a facility and making it operate. So it was very extensive. It was not just a few people. It was a lot of people involved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people worked with you on the automatic controls?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea. I had interfaces through MIT and through basically what was then North American, and then North American’s contractor was Honeywell. So I had interfaces with those people, and I might interface with a half dozen people, but there were lots of people involved. We’re talking hundreds of people involved in the small element that I was dealing with. But I didn’t direct them or interface with them directly, just a few.\\n\\n NASA’s job, as it is today, was primarily coordinating these activities, not doing them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How large were these automatic controls? Can you give us a sense of what size we’re talking about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.096395246230118, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have no idea. I had interfaces through MIT and through basically what was then North American, and then North American’s contractor was Honeywell. So I had interfaces with those people, and I might interface with a half dozen people, but there were lots of people involved. We’re talking hundreds of people involved in the small element that I was dealing with. But I didn’t direct them or interface with them directly, just a few.\\n\\n NASA’s job, as it is today, was primarily coordinating these activities, not doing them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How large were these automatic controls? Can you give us a sense of what size we’re talking about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical size?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. You know, the sensors vary all the way from the onboard IMU [Inertial Measurement Unit], which was about a one-[foot] diameter sphere kind of thing, with all kinds of instrumentation inside it, to very small sensor size. I don’t really have much to talk about because the hardware itself wasn’t something that I had a hands-on activity with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your workdays like? You mentioned working with all these various contractors. Did you do a lot of traveling? How much time were you in the office?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.440439162477908, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Physical size?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. You know, the sensors vary all the way from the onboard IMU [Inertial Measurement Unit], which was about a one-[foot] diameter sphere kind of thing, with all kinds of instrumentation inside it, to very small sensor size. I don’t really have much to talk about because the hardware itself wasn’t something that I had a hands-on activity with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your workdays like? You mentioned working with all these various contractors. Did you do a lot of traveling? How much time were you in the office?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, basically, we were in the office quite a bit, depending on what was going on, but most of our work was done onsite. At the level that I was operating, I didn’t travel but like maybe once a month, and guys that were above me and had greater responsibilities were traveling more than that, but we basically stayed in-house and worked on the projects that we had to work on. So eight-hour day, ten-hour day was not unusual kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever work on the weekends?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.93382129164212, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. You know, the sensors vary all the way from the onboard IMU [Inertial Measurement Unit], which was about a one-[foot] diameter sphere kind of thing, with all kinds of instrumentation inside it, to very small sensor size. I don’t really have much to talk about because the hardware itself wasn’t something that I had a hands-on activity with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your workdays like? You mentioned working with all these various contractors. Did you do a lot of traveling? How much time were you in the office?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, basically, we were in the office quite a bit, depending on what was going on, but most of our work was done onsite. At the level that I was operating, I didn’t travel but like maybe once a month, and guys that were above me and had greater responsibilities were traveling more than that, but we basically stayed in-house and worked on the projects that we had to work on. So eight-hour day, ten-hour day was not unusual kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever work on the weekends?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. Back when we were trying to get all this stuff running and there was lots of time to do things, most of us were young and full of energy. Most of us were single at the time, and we had lots of time to spend at it. So we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the facilities that you used while you were working on the Apollo Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.370912546269022, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, basically, we were in the office quite a bit, depending on what was going on, but most of our work was done onsite. At the level that I was operating, I didn’t travel but like maybe once a month, and guys that were above me and had greater responsibilities were traveling more than that, but we basically stayed in-house and worked on the projects that we had to work on. So eight-hour day, ten-hour day was not unusual kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever work on the weekends?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. Back when we were trying to get all this stuff running and there was lots of time to do things, most of us were young and full of energy. Most of us were single at the time, and we had lots of time to spend at it. So we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the facilities that you used while you were working on the Apollo Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, they were mostly in-house facilities like I had talked about, the Building 16 simulators, the Building [12], the onsite computer facilities kind of thing. They were basically whatever was available that you could get through government procurement at the time. That’s basically where we were. At that time you didn’t even have any electronic calculators. We’re talking about slide rules and adding machines, and what few digital computers you had you had to have approval to get computer time at that time to go make data runs. So we had limited automatic system access."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you spent much time at all working on those digital computers?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.96768060696558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. Back when we were trying to get all this stuff running and there was lots of time to do things, most of us were young and full of energy. Most of us were single at the time, and we had lots of time to spend at it. So we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of the facilities that you used while you were working on the Apollo Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, they were mostly in-house facilities like I had talked about, the Building 16 simulators, the Building [12], the onsite computer facilities kind of thing. They were basically whatever was available that you could get through government procurement at the time. That’s basically where we were. At that time you didn’t even have any electronic calculators. We’re talking about slide rules and adding machines, and what few digital computers you had you had to have approval to get computer time at that time to go make data runs. So we had limited automatic system access."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you spent much time at all working on those digital computers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I spent time using them as a user, not as actually working the digital computers themselves, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would you use the computers for?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.741867341072865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, they were mostly in-house facilities like I had talked about, the Building 16 simulators, the Building [12], the onsite computer facilities kind of thing. They were basically whatever was available that you could get through government procurement at the time. That’s basically where we were. At that time you didn’t even have any electronic calculators. We’re talking about slide rules and adding machines, and what few digital computers you had you had to have approval to get computer time at that time to go make data runs. So we had limited automatic system access."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you spent much time at all working on those digital computers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I spent time using them as a user, not as actually working the digital computers themselves, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would you use the computers for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically just having built a mathematical equation, going and executing that equation, to make sure that things were validated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well did the automatic controls work on the Apollo missions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.713185934525406, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I spent time using them as a user, not as actually working the digital computers themselves, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would you use the computers for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically just having built a mathematical equation, going and executing that equation, to make sure that things were validated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well did the automatic controls work on the Apollo missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They worked well. [Laughs] As a matter of fact, as far as I can remember, there was never any concern about how they operated. Back then, the systems that we had were built based on statistical analysis of their quality, and we basically said we built the system with reliability of five nines, .99999, okay, and that’s basically the whole technique that was used in Apollo. So everything that was put up in Apollo was expected to never fail, essentially, and as far as I know, the electronics systems on Apollo never had any significant failures in them, period, whether it’s controls or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any assignments during the Apollo missions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.347984371694892, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically just having built a mathematical equation, going and executing that equation, to make sure that things were validated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How well did the automatic controls work on the Apollo missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They worked well. [Laughs] As a matter of fact, as far as I can remember, there was never any concern about how they operated. Back then, the systems that we had were built based on statistical analysis of their quality, and we basically said we built the system with reliability of five nines, .99999, okay, and that’s basically the whole technique that was used in Apollo. So everything that was put up in Apollo was expected to never fail, essentially, and as far as I know, the electronics systems on Apollo never had any significant failures in them, period, whether it’s controls or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any assignments during the Apollo missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I was part of the Guidance Control Division’s team that supported what was then called the Mission Evaluation Room, which was over in Building 45, third floor, if I remember right. That was basically engineering support for the Mission Control Center. We had data that we watched continuously and supported them if they had any engineering problems to work kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any missions that stand out in your mind where you had to work a certain issue?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.053315968549878, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They worked well. [Laughs] As a matter of fact, as far as I can remember, there was never any concern about how they operated. Back then, the systems that we had were built based on statistical analysis of their quality, and we basically said we built the system with reliability of five nines, .99999, okay, and that’s basically the whole technique that was used in Apollo. So everything that was put up in Apollo was expected to never fail, essentially, and as far as I know, the electronics systems on Apollo never had any significant failures in them, period, whether it’s controls or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any assignments during the Apollo missions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I was part of the Guidance Control Division’s team that supported what was then called the Mission Evaluation Room, which was over in Building 45, third floor, if I remember right. That was basically engineering support for the Mission Control Center. We had data that we watched continuously and supported them if they had any engineering problems to work kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any missions that stand out in your mind where you had to work a certain issue?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Apollo 13."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to share with us those details?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.503684409499865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I was part of the Guidance Control Division’s team that supported what was then called the Mission Evaluation Room, which was over in Building 45, third floor, if I remember right. That was basically engineering support for the Mission Control Center. We had data that we watched continuously and supported them if they had any engineering problems to work kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any missions that stand out in your mind where you had to work a certain issue?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Apollo 13."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to share with us those details?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Apollo 13 was very significant, obviously. There had to be a way to find to manage it both from a life support standpoint, which I didn’t work. That was not my problem. My problem again was back in the automated control systems, and basically what we had at that time is we knew we couldn’t use the Service Module engine for maneuvering. So the only choice was to use the Lunar Module engines, and the analysis that was done, I helped with. I’ll say “helped,” because there’s a whole bunch of people looking at this, and there were probably more teams than I can count on my hands working at this.\\n\\n So basically it was to define a way to make that vehicle respond and maneuver and make the trans-earth injection burn to get back and with a stable system, because, again, you had the flexible body problem where the two vehicles were mated, and the same problem that we’d had with designing the system to start with where those flexible body modes could cause you problems had that similar problem with the CSM LM with the LM combination firing. Only it wasn’t as great, because the engine forcing function was not as great. So you could not excite those modes as much with that engine, so you could, in fact, make that burn, and they did and got home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working in Building 45 when the accident occurred?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.115204899444294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, Apollo 13."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to share with us those details?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Apollo 13 was very significant, obviously. There had to be a way to find to manage it both from a life support standpoint, which I didn’t work. That was not my problem. My problem again was back in the automated control systems, and basically what we had at that time is we knew we couldn’t use the Service Module engine for maneuvering. So the only choice was to use the Lunar Module engines, and the analysis that was done, I helped with. I’ll say “helped,” because there’s a whole bunch of people looking at this, and there were probably more teams than I can count on my hands working at this.\\n\\n So basically it was to define a way to make that vehicle respond and maneuver and make the trans-earth injection burn to get back and with a stable system, because, again, you had the flexible body problem where the two vehicles were mated, and the same problem that we’d had with designing the system to start with where those flexible body modes could cause you problems had that similar problem with the CSM LM with the LM combination firing. Only it wasn’t as great, because the engine forcing function was not as great. So you could not excite those modes as much with that engine, so you could, in fact, make that burn, and they did and got home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working in Building 45 when the accident occurred?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was home when it actually occurred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you hear about it on the news, or were you called in to work?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.90578322160477, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Apollo 13 was very significant, obviously. There had to be a way to find to manage it both from a life support standpoint, which I didn’t work. That was not my problem. My problem again was back in the automated control systems, and basically what we had at that time is we knew we couldn’t use the Service Module engine for maneuvering. So the only choice was to use the Lunar Module engines, and the analysis that was done, I helped with. I’ll say “helped,” because there’s a whole bunch of people looking at this, and there were probably more teams than I can count on my hands working at this.\\n\\n So basically it was to define a way to make that vehicle respond and maneuver and make the trans-earth injection burn to get back and with a stable system, because, again, you had the flexible body problem where the two vehicles were mated, and the same problem that we’d had with designing the system to start with where those flexible body modes could cause you problems had that similar problem with the CSM LM with the LM combination firing. Only it wasn’t as great, because the engine forcing function was not as great. So you could not excite those modes as much with that engine, so you could, in fact, make that burn, and they did and got home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working in Building 45 when the accident occurred?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was home when it actually occurred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you hear about it on the news, or were you called in to work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I got a phone call. Yeah. I was home and I can’t remember if it was on the news. I honestly don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the mood like at the Center when Apollo 13 finally landed?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.895314690671967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was home when it actually occurred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you hear about it on the news, or were you called in to work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I got a phone call. Yeah. I was home and I can’t remember if it was on the news. I honestly don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the mood like at the Center when Apollo 13 finally landed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, everybody was elated. They were just absolutely elated that they had managed to get them back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s go back to Apollo 11. Where were you when Apollo 11 landed on the Moon?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.10590521185774, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I got a phone call. Yeah. I was home and I can’t remember if it was on the news. I honestly don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the mood like at the Center when Apollo 13 finally landed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, everybody was elated. They were just absolutely elated that they had managed to get them back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s go back to Apollo 11. Where were you when Apollo 11 landed on the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the Mission Evaluation Room in Building 45 working at the time, so I was there when they landed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 24.562116902064155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, everybody was elated. They were just absolutely elated that they had managed to get them back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s go back to Apollo 11. Where were you when Apollo 11 landed on the Moon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the Mission Evaluation Room in Building 45 working at the time, so I was there when they landed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was just elation at a successful event, and everybody was crazy, waving flags and doing things that people do when they’re excited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder if you can describe the Mission Evaluation Room for us. Give us a sense of how many people were in there, what was contained in that room, what the shifts were like."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.402352113404614, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the Mission Evaluation Room in Building 45 working at the time, so I was there when they landed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your thoughts at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was just elation at a successful event, and everybody was crazy, waving flags and doing things that people do when they’re excited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder if you can describe the Mission Evaluation Room for us. Give us a sense of how many people were in there, what was contained in that room, what the shifts were like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Mission Evaluation Room took basically the whole third floor of the Building 45, and it was the Engineering Directorate’s team to support the Mission Operations guys. So you had Structures guys in there, you had Propulsion guys in there, you had Guidance and Control Division guys. In terms of at any one time, there was probably on the order of a hundred people on that floor, and people were working basically three shifts a day, kind of thing. So it basically was overhead TV screens to present data. You had clerical support; you had copy support, and basically we had—it was all tables, tables and desks, with calculators and that kind of thing. It was not very modern in today’s terms of what you would see in the Control Center or even in the Mission Evaluation Room that’s currently there. There is currently a Mission Evaluation Room somewhere onsite. I don’t know where it is. It’s probably in the Control Center somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of the descriptions that you see of the Control Center in the ‘60s were that it was smoky and that it was really loud. Was it the same way in the Mission Evaluation Room?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.447057903782905, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was just elation at a successful event, and everybody was crazy, waving flags and doing things that people do when they’re excited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder if you can describe the Mission Evaluation Room for us. Give us a sense of how many people were in there, what was contained in that room, what the shifts were like."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Mission Evaluation Room took basically the whole third floor of the Building 45, and it was the Engineering Directorate’s team to support the Mission Operations guys. So you had Structures guys in there, you had Propulsion guys in there, you had Guidance and Control Division guys. In terms of at any one time, there was probably on the order of a hundred people on that floor, and people were working basically three shifts a day, kind of thing. So it basically was overhead TV screens to present data. You had clerical support; you had copy support, and basically we had—it was all tables, tables and desks, with calculators and that kind of thing. It was not very modern in today’s terms of what you would see in the Control Center or even in the Mission Evaluation Room that’s currently there. There is currently a Mission Evaluation Room somewhere onsite. I don’t know where it is. It’s probably in the Control Center somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of the descriptions that you see of the Control Center in the ‘60s were that it was smoky and that it was really loud. Was it the same way in the Mission Evaluation Room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. At that time, as a matter of fact, when they landed on the Moon, they pulled out the cigars. And I’m a culprit also. I was a smoker. I would say the majority of the people were smokers at the time. It was kind of a smoke-filled backroom. The only places you couldn’t smoke was basically in the rooms where it was critical from a standpoint of messing up equipment and things like that. In the simulator rooms, you couldn’t smoke, and computer rooms, you didn’t smoke.\\n\\n But it was a very significant and traumatic event when they outlawed smoking on the site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it really?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.718953226425448, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Mission Evaluation Room took basically the whole third floor of the Building 45, and it was the Engineering Directorate’s team to support the Mission Operations guys. So you had Structures guys in there, you had Propulsion guys in there, you had Guidance and Control Division guys. In terms of at any one time, there was probably on the order of a hundred people on that floor, and people were working basically three shifts a day, kind of thing. So it basically was overhead TV screens to present data. You had clerical support; you had copy support, and basically we had—it was all tables, tables and desks, with calculators and that kind of thing. It was not very modern in today’s terms of what you would see in the Control Center or even in the Mission Evaluation Room that’s currently there. There is currently a Mission Evaluation Room somewhere onsite. I don’t know where it is. It’s probably in the Control Center somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of the descriptions that you see of the Control Center in the ‘60s were that it was smoky and that it was really loud. Was it the same way in the Mission Evaluation Room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. At that time, as a matter of fact, when they landed on the Moon, they pulled out the cigars. And I’m a culprit also. I was a smoker. I would say the majority of the people were smokers at the time. It was kind of a smoke-filled backroom. The only places you couldn’t smoke was basically in the rooms where it was critical from a standpoint of messing up equipment and things like that. In the simulator rooms, you couldn’t smoke, and computer rooms, you didn’t smoke.\\n\\n But it was a very significant and traumatic event when they outlawed smoking on the site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I had no idea."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.13217025158383, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. At that time, as a matter of fact, when they landed on the Moon, they pulled out the cigars. And I’m a culprit also. I was a smoker. I would say the majority of the people were smokers at the time. It was kind of a smoke-filled backroom. The only places you couldn’t smoke was basically in the rooms where it was critical from a standpoint of messing up equipment and things like that. In the simulator rooms, you couldn’t smoke, and computer rooms, you didn’t smoke.\\n\\n But it was a very significant and traumatic event when they outlawed smoking on the site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I had no idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. As a matter of fact, I actually quit smoking before it was outlawed on the site. The guy that had the nerve to do it was Aaron Cohen. He may have gotten instructions from somebody else, but he was the one that had the nerve to cut it out entirely. There was no smoking anywhere on the site. Used to, it was when they started out, you couldn’t smoke in this room and that room, you could smoke in your office, but with the central systems in those building out there, it didn’t make any difference. You were still blowing smoke on everybody.\\n\\n So it was a traumatic learning experience for everybody, but it was good. By the time I retired, you couldn’t tell that there’d ever been any smoke in those buildings out there, which is amazing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any assignments after the flights had flown during Apollo?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.81352250175981, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I had no idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. As a matter of fact, I actually quit smoking before it was outlawed on the site. The guy that had the nerve to do it was Aaron Cohen. He may have gotten instructions from somebody else, but he was the one that had the nerve to cut it out entirely. There was no smoking anywhere on the site. Used to, it was when they started out, you couldn’t smoke in this room and that room, you could smoke in your office, but with the central systems in those building out there, it didn’t make any difference. You were still blowing smoke on everybody.\\n\\n So it was a traumatic learning experience for everybody, but it was good. By the time I retired, you couldn’t tell that there’d ever been any smoke in those buildings out there, which is amazing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any assignments after the flights had flown during Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re talking about post-flight analysis?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Post-flight analysis or—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.792802779733123, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. As a matter of fact, I actually quit smoking before it was outlawed on the site. The guy that had the nerve to do it was Aaron Cohen. He may have gotten instructions from somebody else, but he was the one that had the nerve to cut it out entirely. There was no smoking anywhere on the site. Used to, it was when they started out, you couldn’t smoke in this room and that room, you could smoke in your office, but with the central systems in those building out there, it didn’t make any difference. You were still blowing smoke on everybody.\\n\\n So it was a traumatic learning experience for everybody, but it was good. By the time I retired, you couldn’t tell that there’d ever been any smoke in those buildings out there, which is amazing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any assignments after the flights had flown during Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re talking about post-flight analysis?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Post-flight analysis or—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Post-flight analysis, we did some on the early flights, just to make sure that the performance of the systems we were responsible for was what we expected. But on a continuing basis, probably after the work that I did following up on Apollo 13, I actually didn’t work any more of the Apollo flights.\\n\\n As I said earlier, I started working on the winged vehicle prior to the landing on the Moon, and after Apollo 13 my main effort was involved in working on the next program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned earlier that you got your master’s degree in ’68 from the University of Houston."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 33.10311419970347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re talking about post-flight analysis?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Post-flight analysis or—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Post-flight analysis, we did some on the early flights, just to make sure that the performance of the systems we were responsible for was what we expected. But on a continuing basis, probably after the work that I did following up on Apollo 13, I actually didn’t work any more of the Apollo flights.\\n\\n As I said earlier, I started working on the winged vehicle prior to the landing on the Moon, and after Apollo 13 my main effort was involved in working on the next program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned earlier that you got your master’s degree in ’68 from the University of Houston."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us how you were able to juggle work and going to school at the same time during, you know, a very frenzied environment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 27.30150080358762, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us any stories about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, the splashdown parties was just what it said, it was a party to celebrate a positive mission completion, although we celebrated a lot of negative things, too. We celebrated getting people back on 13, which was a positive result.\\n\\n But we were all young. When I went to work, I was twenty-four years old, and most people were between twenty-two and thirty at that time. I think the average age at the Center was like in the late twenties when I went to work there. When I retired, I think it was forty-something. So it was younger people, and they had a lot of partying on their mind. A lot of them were single, and I’m not sure that that made that much difference. But it was fun. We had a good time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you had started working on the Shuttle Program before the Apollo Program had ended. What’s your sense of the mood at the Center once the Apollo Program did officially end in ’72?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, where I was it was still very positive, because I was in the development of a new activity. Guys on the Operations sides of the house weren’t quite as positive at that point, because there was a lot of uncertainty about where were we going and where things were going for them. There was a lot of cutbacks in terms of dollars for the total programs, and so there was some, quote, restructuring of NASA and cutting down on the numbers of civil servants. So there were some moods where it was a lot of uncertainty and people were not happy. But for those that were still involved and had responsibilities, it was still a positive situation. We were still doing basic good engineering and development and analysis-type work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you first started working on the Space Shuttle Program, what were some of your first assignments?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 32.470988646404464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, where I was it was still very positive, because I was in the development of a new activity. Guys on the Operations sides of the house weren’t quite as positive at that point, because there was a lot of uncertainty about where were we going and where things were going for them. There was a lot of cutbacks in terms of dollars for the total programs, and so there was some, quote, restructuring of NASA and cutting down on the numbers of civil servants. So there were some moods where it was a lot of uncertainty and people were not happy. But for those that were still involved and had responsibilities, it was still a positive situation. We were still doing basic good engineering and development and analysis-type work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you first started working on the Space Shuttle Program, what were some of your first assignments?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My first assignment was to go find out how to fly an airplane. I’m an electrical engineer. I knew nothing about airplanes, so I spent about a year taking courses and studying to understand airplanes and how and why they fly so that we could, in fact, develop and analyze and work with the contractors and the crews in developing the control systems for the Shuttle. I had worked the basic on-orbit phase for Apollo, and I was basically put in responsibility in an area of atmospheric flight for Shuttle, which at the time I knew very little about, so I had to go study. My first assignment was go learn, which is what you do in a development and analysis world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Once you were through learning how planes fly, what was your next task?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Basically, my responsibility for Shuttle until I left the Engineering Directorate was the entry flight control systems, the atmospheric, the entry all the way from post de-orbit to landing was to work and analyze and do what I had to do with the other guys that were working the same problem for entry on the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us what the entry control systems consisted of?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 23.771656490176028, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What did we learn? Well, we learned quite a bit from the aerodynamics standpoint, that the Aerodynamics guys picked up and finalized a lot of their data based on those tests. It knocked out a lot of the uncertainty that had to be dealt with in the design, which made it nice. We learned about, “we” NASA, not me necessarily, learned about tires and the fact that some of them come apart at high speeds. They learned about brakes, the fact that some of them burn up at high speeds. There was a lot learned from the approach landing tests. They were well worth the tests being done, and the crews got a lot of experience from a landing standpoint. I think it’s significant that [some of the guys] that [were] the primary driver[s] there that [did the] flying [were Fred W. Haise and Joe H. Engle] because [they were the right guys] to do it.\\n\\n Just basically, we learned a lot from those tests to get the uncertainty out of the landing operations phase."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved at all in terms of software for the entry systems?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You talking about responsible for the development of the software?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of our research indicated that you were working on some software for the Shuttle, that you were involved in some of the various groups."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was working on the software in the sense that the designs were digital, and by definition that means that they’re in the software, and we were [responsible] for making sure that those designs were implemented and tested and verified as part of the onboard software. But as far as—I was basically—what did they call it? They had a name for us. Basically, I was responsible to the Program Office for making sure the entry flight control systems were implemented right in the software. But as far as the hands-on of the software, no, I didn’t have any hands-on of the onboard software."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In 1980, in your oral history you mentioned that you moved from the Engineering Directorate into Operations. Can you tell us about that move and how different that was for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.887087825663475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was quite a bit different. If you look at the philosophy behind the three directorates there, Engineering was responsible for designing a system that did a particular function and then designing enough margin in it that you can manage uncertainty with it. Operations Planning was responsible for taking and turning that design into a mission and making sure that design was compatible with the mission. When you go into the actual operations, you look at what-ifs to the extent of how I can manage this system if something else puts it outside its design requirements.\\n\\n So you learn the systems and what they’re capable of totally so that you can operate outside the design boundary if you have to. So those three philosophies flow [together so] the backrooms in the Control Center know what the total capability of a system is as opposed to the design constraints on it to start with.\\n\\n So you take and you make sure that you’re monitoring that system to see where you are with that system, and that’s what we were doing when we started looking at the tiles. Okay. That system was designed to operate under certain conditions. What would happen if you operated it under different conditions? So it’s a different look at the article, i.e. the Shuttle, about what can I do with this vehicle, not what was it designed to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you working on console during STS-3?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your recollections of the landing at White Sands [Missile Range, New Mexico]? Were you involved with that at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us those details?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 17.65231980629275, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your recollections of the landing at White Sands [Missile Range, New Mexico]? Were you involved with that at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us those details?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, we really didn’t know at the time exactly what happened. There were several things going on from a flight condition standpoint that we did not understand. First of all, that was a landing at White Sands, and we had never really analyzed what happened if you came into White Sands with the terrain the way it was. So we did not know at the time if we had an environmental problem that we didn’t understand, or if we had an onboard control problem that we didn’t understand. We didn’t have sufficient data to analyze it in real time.\\n\\n Now, after that was over and we got the mission data tapes and deciphered them, it was a little clearer about what was going on there, and basically, the, “entry and landing guys” went back and reanalyzed it based on post-flight data to see what happened and, in fact, verified what happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you work in this position, and how many Space Shuttle flights did you end up manning the console?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.835910895880831, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us those details?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, we really didn’t know at the time exactly what happened. There were several things going on from a flight condition standpoint that we did not understand. First of all, that was a landing at White Sands, and we had never really analyzed what happened if you came into White Sands with the terrain the way it was. So we did not know at the time if we had an environmental problem that we didn’t understand, or if we had an onboard control problem that we didn’t understand. We didn’t have sufficient data to analyze it in real time.\\n\\n Now, after that was over and we got the mission data tapes and deciphered them, it was a little clearer about what was going on there, and basically, the, “entry and landing guys” went back and reanalyzed it based on post-flight data to see what happened and, in fact, verified what happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did you work in this position, and how many Space Shuttle flights did you end up manning the console?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. I went to work in MPAD [Mission Planning and Analysis Division] in ’80, and if I remember right, in 1984 they reorganized us and put us in the Flight Operations Directorate, if I remember right. And in 1984, I was made an Assistant Branch Chief, and I was still on the console at the time. Basically, let’s see, in 1985 it may have been when we went to the Flight Operations Directorate. Whenever that happened, I was not— I didn’t work the consoles anymore after that. So about working on the console from about 1980 starting training through the first flights, and in about 1985 when I was promoted to Branch Chief, I didn’t work the consoles anymore. The guys that were in my branch worked the consoles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you became appointed Branch Chief, how did your duties change other than not working on the console?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.821199147000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where was I? Oh, I was in the backroom, wasn’t working on the console, but I was in the backroom monitoring what was going on on the console for the launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n accident impact the systems that you were working on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the response to the\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n accident was somewhat overkill, in my opinion. Because we were down and not flying, we reviewed every onboard system and design and went in where we had the resources and the capability to upgrade the system to do things beyond what its original design requirements were, and to that extent, we had the time, we had the people, and we had the resources to do that. And the only reason we did that is because we had the downtime. The downtime, in my opinion, was political. We could have launched the next flight on schedule and been safe, in my opinion.\\n\\n But we were down two years, and we accomplished a lot in that two years in terms of refining and smoothing the operations for the Shuttle. So it was not a negative time in that sense, but in my opinion it was not a necessary time. In my opinion, what happened on\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n was a result of not doing good quality assurance at the Cape and launching a vehicle in conditions that it was not designed to operate. So in my opinion, we could have launched the next flight with the proper QA [Quality Assurance] on the assembly.\\n\\n But that’s an opinion. I don’t do responsibility for that. Somebody else had a responsibility for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any responsibilities for any return to flight activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us those details?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 10.7, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that’s where we are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just have a couple more questions for you. Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you think was your most challenging moment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I guess the most challenging from a technical standpoint was working the flight systems design for Shuttle. We had many different organizations involved in that and getting them to agree on a final design when there could be four or five different approaches taken was difficult because it was something that had never been done before. It’s hard to get a guy to say “Okay, my design’s better than your’s, but we’ll go with your’s.” It’s difficult to coordinate that compromise when you are dealing with people who are very proud of their work and don’t really want to give it up.\\n\\n So at one time, for instance, if I remember right there were five different entry guidance designs. There were at least four different approaches to designing the flight control system itself and to evolve to a design that accomplished the requirements was difficult in the sense that getting people to agree with approach because probably all of the approaches would have worked given you had to mature the design between selecting it and working it. So the most challenging was getting basically people on the same page to go work the final solution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By contrast, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughs] That’s hard. I like to think that my most significant accomplishment was getting the people who worked for me after I became Branch Chief trained to do the job. I grew up with it. So I didn’t “train to do it.” They had to come in and learn it and pick up from experience from what we had learned, and I guess I’m proudest of them being able to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just a couple of other questions for you. We’re working on a paper and doing research about NASA and its impact on the Clear Lake area during the Apollo Program. I’m wondering if you can share with us your memories of how the Space Center impacted the surrounding area. You arrived there in ’64."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we married, actually the month before we married, I bought a house in Dickinson and we lived in Dickinson in that house for about—lived in it about six years. When my twins were two years old, I designed and built a house over in another area of Dickinson for the family. It was a unique design because we had twins."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved at all in any sort of community activities after you and your wife were married?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, obviously involved in the church, and we were involved in T-ball with the kids. I can’t really just think of anything particular right now. We did square-dancing, we did ballroom dancing, we were involved in a volleyball team down there, and involved in some of the community activities at the cities and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I think that I’ve gone through all my questions, unless there’s something you think we might have overlooked. I didn’t ask you about Skylab and ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project], I’m not sure if you had any involvement with either of those programs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably limited, just enough to say that I was there. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. Well, do you want to discuss anything else or feel like we’ve overlooked something that you’d like to talk about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00571:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, obviously involved in the church, and we were involved in T-ball with the kids. I can’t really just think of anything particular right now. We did square-dancing, we did ballroom dancing, we were involved in a volleyball team down there, and involved in some of the community activities at the cities and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I think that I’ve gone through all my questions, unless there’s something you think we might have overlooked. I didn’t ask you about Skylab and ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project], I’m not sure if you had any involvement with either of those programs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably limited, just enough to say that I was there. [laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. All right. Well, do you want to discuss anything else or feel like we’ve overlooked something that you’d like to talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. I was trying to think if there was anything in this last—you probably pretty well dissected this though, I suspect."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Went through and tried to get a sense of your career and—"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 32.88393718896012, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our training. We did a month in the States, in Kingsville, Texas, at the university there. And it was all of us going to Costa Rica, the married couple group, and a group going to Paraguay. And that was in the summer of 1980, and the training was, it was actually pretty good. It was focused on community development, which we had no idea what that means."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does it mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How do you facilitate helping the community to what they want to do to improve their lives? Not what I think they should do to improve their lives. Big distinction. So in the training, we learned to listen, observe, and not make any moves, not suggest anything, or start any projects until we really understood what the community wants to do. And then how could we facilitate that. Not do the work, but facilitate it and help organize or get them materials or get them a grant. So it was a real step back of, like, we do not jump in as an American and do it. We let the community to decide. So we had a month of playing different role playing and everything.\n\nAnd also, I think the hardest day almost in the entire Peace Corps was they took us down to the border of Mexico in the U.S. We were on the U.S. side. We were in, I think, McAllen. And we had to knock on the doors of everybody, of different people. Try to speak, it wasn't that I had to speak Spanish, but just to introduce ourselves and ask them some questions about the community. That wasn't so hard. But then we had to sleep in a, it was a senior citizen's place where they served them like meals, and all we could bring was a sheet to sleep with. And we slept, um, we slept on the floor and there were cockroaches everywhere and that weeded some people out after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I assumed you spoke Spanish by this time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of your travel in South America."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 34.31548576551124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How do you facilitate helping the community to what they want to do to improve their lives? Not what I think they should do to improve their lives. Big distinction. So in the training, we learned to listen, observe, and not make any moves, not suggest anything, or start any projects until we really understood what the community wants to do. And then how could we facilitate that. Not do the work, but facilitate it and help organize or get them materials or get them a grant. So it was a real step back of, like, we do not jump in as an American and do it. We let the community to decide. So we had a month of playing different role playing and everything.\n\nAnd also, I think the hardest day almost in the entire Peace Corps was they took us down to the border of Mexico in the U.S. We were on the U.S. side. We were in, I think, McAllen. And we had to knock on the doors of everybody, of different people. Try to speak, it wasn't that I had to speak Spanish, but just to introduce ourselves and ask them some questions about the community. That wasn't so hard. But then we had to sleep in a, it was a senior citizen's place where they served them like meals, and all we could bring was a sheet to sleep with. And we slept, um, we slept on the floor and there were cockroaches everywhere and that weeded some people out after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I assumed you spoke Spanish by this time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of your travel in South America."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had actually minored in Spanish at the University of Montana and I also spoke some Portuguese from living in Brazil. So my language skills were decent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your husband's?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.128317517234716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of your travel in South America."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had actually minored in Spanish at the University of Montana and I also spoke some Portuguese from living in Brazil. So my language skills were decent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your husband's?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he actually, even though he had not studied, he is really good at picking up languages. So he had a decent Spanish too. So that made him more comfortable going to a country where he felt he could speak the language. So we finished training there, shipped us off to Miami to go down to Costa Rica to do three months of training, and a big hurricane hit Texas. So we were delayed getting out of there. But you know, we made it. And so we arrived in Costa Rica. You know, we had been there before, so it wasn't a shock, but when they took us. The training was outside of San Jose in an area called was near Alajuela called La Garita. And you know, we arrived in the evening, spent the night in a hotel. The next morning after work, you know, they introduced us to the training center and then we were all sweaty and tired at noon and we had to meet our families. And it was really hard because we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were going to live with families?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.253686130260796, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I had actually minored in Spanish at the University of Montana and I also spoke some Portuguese from living in Brazil. So my language skills were decent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your husband's?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he actually, even though he had not studied, he is really good at picking up languages. So he had a decent Spanish too. So that made him more comfortable going to a country where he felt he could speak the language. So we finished training there, shipped us off to Miami to go down to Costa Rica to do three months of training, and a big hurricane hit Texas. So we were delayed getting out of there. But you know, we made it. And so we arrived in Costa Rica. You know, we had been there before, so it wasn't a shock, but when they took us. The training was outside of San Jose in an area called was near Alajuela called La Garita. And you know, we arrived in the evening, spent the night in a hotel. The next morning after work, you know, they introduced us to the training center and then we were all sweaty and tired at noon and we had to meet our families. And it was really hard because we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were going to live with families?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were going to live with families for three months and we were sweaty, tired. You know, it was not a nice way to meet people, but it's reality. So we lived with a family. They, in my opinion, they did it for the money, not for making us feel warm and cozy. OK. So, you know, whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you live with them? Was it in La Garita?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 34.726317922511996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he actually, even though he had not studied, he is really good at picking up languages. So he had a decent Spanish too. So that made him more comfortable going to a country where he felt he could speak the language. So we finished training there, shipped us off to Miami to go down to Costa Rica to do three months of training, and a big hurricane hit Texas. So we were delayed getting out of there. But you know, we made it. And so we arrived in Costa Rica. You know, we had been there before, so it wasn't a shock, but when they took us. The training was outside of San Jose in an area called was near Alajuela called La Garita. And you know, we arrived in the evening, spent the night in a hotel. The next morning after work, you know, they introduced us to the training center and then we were all sweaty and tired at noon and we had to meet our families. And it was really hard because we."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were going to live with families?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were going to live with families for three months and we were sweaty, tired. You know, it was not a nice way to meet people, but it's reality. So we lived with a family. They, in my opinion, they did it for the money, not for making us feel warm and cozy. OK. So, you know, whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you live with them? Was it in La Garita?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "La Garita, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the site of where you lived with a family was the same place as where you were in training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 36.362575469457774, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were going to live with families for three months and we were sweaty, tired. You know, it was not a nice way to meet people, but it's reality. So we lived with a family. They, in my opinion, they did it for the money, not for making us feel warm and cozy. OK. So, you know, whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you live with them? Was it in La Garita?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "La Garita, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the site of where you lived with a family was the same place as where you were in training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where we had the training, yeah. So we would walk every morning up this beautiful road with exquisite views. And I remember the diesel of the trucks and I, for a while, whenever I smelled diesel I remembered those views, which is like, you would think not. So the, you know, the training was pretty good. You know, we had to learn how to, you know, grow school gardens, how to raise chickens and kill them because we needed food. We didn't have restaurants, we weren't going to have restaurants and stores where we were. You know how to cook a lot of things like plantains, cooking plantains, you know, prepare Costa Rican dishes. We also, because we were going to have horses, we asked them for some horseback training. I'm trying to think. Well, you know, we learned simple things about health. And I'm very squeamish about medical stuff. So it was, that part was tough for me. And when we originally read the announcement of the job, they left off the second page about health. So I didn't know I was getting into that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In health, in what way? Because I see this is health education. So your own health care or health education?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.580606795057168, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they had elementary schools. So, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Spanish, yeah. So we went back and then we were assigned, you know, we got sworn in, we were assigned, you know, to our sites and, you know, somehow we got moved in with, you know, pots and pans and all this kind of stuff and set up, you know. And it took a while to set up with, you know, I couldn't cook over wood all the time. One reason why we were all married couples in this group was because they realized it was going to take, just living was going to take a lot of work. So if you sent a single volunteer, they're just, they're living, cooking, washing, you know, supplies would take three quarters of their day, so they couldn't work. And it wasn't like I had to do all the work, but at least we could split it. The indigenous all cooked off of wood fires. That didn't work for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was hard to keep, it took a long time to boil the rice and everything. And it was hard to keep the fire going, especially if I had to go off for the day and work in a school or something and come back and then start a fire from scratch and be starving. There was no restaurants you could go to. So we finally bought a gas stove, a tropic gas stove. So you know, that made life a little easier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you get that? Did you go back into town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 29.22809032661778, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was definitely remembered. So when we got there, there's a road in the town that he lives in now, and so I went to her house. And, you know, I just couldn't believe it. We have selfies, you know, and I met her kids and everything, and it was like, wow, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did they get venom to have on their own or was it just lucky that you had it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was part of the health post, but it was just kind of by luck, you know. They had some of their own, you know, you know, traditional medicine, but no. What they would do sometimes is in Amubri, where they had the Catholic mission, there was an airstrip. And the younger, which I think now is deceased, priest, Bernardito, had his own airplane and he was a pilot. So he could fly people out in an emergency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but when you have a snake bite, you know, that has to happen really quickly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it could be 12 to 24 hours with that type of snake. There are coral snakes and coral snakes are you need to get out quick. But coral snakes, we learned, because they wouldn't. Peace Corps couldn't give us anti-venom for that because it has to be refrigerated. Coral snakes can't open their mouths very wide, so they have to bite like in between your fingers or between your toes. So it's real rare to get bitten by one. But I have to say I went to this, into Peace Corps, deathly afraid of spiders, deathly afraid of snakes. I'm better now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went really fast through all of this. Talk, uh, you said a long time ago at the beginning, the difference between Indians and indigenous people. What's the difference, from your point of view?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 30.25343369624198, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was part of the health post, but it was just kind of by luck, you know. They had some of their own, you know, you know, traditional medicine, but no. What they would do sometimes is in Amubri, where they had the Catholic mission, there was an airstrip. And the younger, which I think now is deceased, priest, Bernardito, had his own airplane and he was a pilot. So he could fly people out in an emergency."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but when you have a snake bite, you know, that has to happen really quickly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it could be 12 to 24 hours with that type of snake. There are coral snakes and coral snakes are you need to get out quick. But coral snakes, we learned, because they wouldn't. Peace Corps couldn't give us anti-venom for that because it has to be refrigerated. Coral snakes can't open their mouths very wide, so they have to bite like in between your fingers or between your toes. So it's real rare to get bitten by one. But I have to say I went to this, into Peace Corps, deathly afraid of spiders, deathly afraid of snakes. I'm better now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went really fast through all of this. Talk, uh, you said a long time ago at the beginning, the difference between Indians and indigenous people. What's the difference, from your point of view?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My point of view is Christopher Columbus came over here thinking he was discovering India, and he called them Indians. And they actually, to me, they're indigenous. They are actually our true natives, and there are different nations or tribes, and they're not all the same. They're different and they want to be thought of as different. So I prefer to refer to them as indigenous. To me, Indians has a bad connotation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And are they maintaining their culture? You've been back several times."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 23.96042325292178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. It's a fascinating culture, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you travel around the country at all or did you stay in your area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we did. We did. It was hard to get out and usually when we, like every six weeks, we would go to San Jose and, you know, have three or four days where we would eat. And I say drink beer and buy supplies. So but we did one vacation, we went to the Corn Islands, which is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Corn?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Islas del Maíz, which belonged to, I always get this wrong. I think they belong to Colombia. But they're close to Nicaragua. One or the other. Yeah. So we did that. On one of our, when we were in training, we went to the Osa Peninsula on the Pacific side. We had traveled a lot in Costa Rica before that, so we kind of knew the country. So we weren't like, we've got to go see everything. Went to Guanacaste. When we finished Peace Corps, there was a previous volunteer who had decided to stay in Costa Rica, and he had rented a house on the beach in Puerto Viejo. And his name was Keith, and we, when we were. Puerto Viejo was on the Caribbean coast. So when we were in our site and we wanted to get out of our site for like a weekend, he would invite us. We would go to his house and we would stay there.\n\nSo when we finished Peace Corps, he said, I want, I'm going back to the states, do you want to take over my rental? And we said, yes. Beautiful ocean right there. And so we took over his rental, and it was a very tiny little place. And, you know, his stove and his bed and stuff like that, bought all that from him. So we stayed there three months. And every day we said, do we go to the States or do we stay here? I don't know, the beach looks great. So we did that for three months and then we came home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What made you decide to come home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 25.185765779042224, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't. I wanted to stay there. Puerto Viejo at that time had only one very low-class hotel, had a great restaurant, and I thought, this is a great tourist mecca. We could do a hotel and bed and breakfast. But Costa Rica had, at that time, was debating a law whether in that area they were going to make all of that a national park and not allow people to build within three hundred meters of the ocean. So, you know, insecurity. And then I also, part of the Peace Corps experience, you have one year of noncompetitive status. And I knew being a geographer, a cartographer, that my line of work would be to work for the federal government, so I should go home and get a job. But I tell you, we debated it back and forth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you did use your noncompetitive status?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I did. And I got a job with the U.S. Geological Survey in Denver. And you know, it was, I thought. I went from living with no electricity out in the jungle, always being outside, to making topographic maps where you're in a dark room all day. I thought, woah, is this a change. But it was a career, and I eventually got to do some international work and ended my career doing a lot of international work for the Department of Interior here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a geographer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "As a geographer, yeah. So Peace Corps, I remember, you know, you asked or that sheet talks about how do I, you know, have I incorporated Peace Corps in my life afterwards?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's my next question. You beat me to it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.060456910596285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Washington. But it's a totally different atmosphere, has many young people. And by when I moved here, I was 50 or something, you know, and it's all in D.C., which is a little far from Reston. So their activities are different. The population is different. So for Peace Corps' 50th anniversary, Lynn Lilienthal put on an event in Reston, and I realized there's a lot of returned Peace Corps volunteers there. So between Lynn, Steve Christopher, and myself, we started NoVA RPCV and then they all nominated me as president. And I said, what the heck? And of all the volunteer stuff I do, it's the most wonderful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I know you've been back it sounds like quite a few times. What impact do you think Peace Corps had on the town you were in? Clearly, you saved a kid's life, which was incredible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I wish I could say, oh, they have all this clean water and great food and great education from our experience. No, nothing like that. But I think what the impact is, they saw what Americans are like, or a couple was like. Like Mike would do the dishes and they would see him doing the dishes. And, you know, the men would never have done the dishes, you know, so we would joke about that. And you know, maybe I did some things that they might quote as men's, you know, men's work. You know, we found out later that some of them had traveled to the States with special indigenous conferences. So I think we opened up their eyes to the world instead of just being very small. We highly respected them. And so that respect, I think, I hope it helped. And like I said, you know, there were some women that got money to teach weaving. You know, we did teach at the very end, they asked us to teach some about birth control. Because they had really not a lot of information, so that might have helped."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was Costa Rica OK with that as a Catholic country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.42031717357566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I wish I could say, oh, they have all this clean water and great food and great education from our experience. No, nothing like that. But I think what the impact is, they saw what Americans are like, or a couple was like. Like Mike would do the dishes and they would see him doing the dishes. And, you know, the men would never have done the dishes, you know, so we would joke about that. And you know, maybe I did some things that they might quote as men's, you know, men's work. You know, we found out later that some of them had traveled to the States with special indigenous conferences. So I think we opened up their eyes to the world instead of just being very small. We highly respected them. And so that respect, I think, I hope it helped. And like I said, you know, there were some women that got money to teach weaving. You know, we did teach at the very end, they asked us to teach some about birth control. Because they had really not a lot of information, so that might have helped."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was Costa Rica OK with that as a Catholic country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We never asked permission. It was our last month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So and they came to us to ask, not the other way. When our counterpart's wife was pregnant, Monica, with her second child. Her first child was born and he was missing fingers and stuff like that. And he was very sick. I gave her a bunch of my prenatal vitamins. Her second child is big. And I got to see him. The difference between the two, whether that was in vitamins or not, I think that's one part of it. You know, I think just knowing Americans. For me, what did it do for me? It one gave me a great appreciation for farmers, for people living off the land. When people say, oh, let's go live off the land, I say, do you know how hard it is to eat only what you grow? Very very hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it cured you of that idea."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.800352415084065, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We never asked permission. It was our last month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So and they came to us to ask, not the other way. When our counterpart's wife was pregnant, Monica, with her second child. Her first child was born and he was missing fingers and stuff like that. And he was very sick. I gave her a bunch of my prenatal vitamins. Her second child is big. And I got to see him. The difference between the two, whether that was in vitamins or not, I think that's one part of it. You know, I think just knowing Americans. For me, what did it do for me? It one gave me a great appreciation for farmers, for people living off the land. When people say, oh, let's go live off the land, I say, do you know how hard it is to eat only what you grow? Very very hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it cured you of that idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cured me completely of that idea. I do not want to grow. I mean, we had gardens in Denver and Austin, but I don't grow my own food, you know, building my own house. It also cured me of owning a horse. We own two horses and we had to take care of them. I love riding horses, but they are a lot of work. So my sister owns horses. She can have them. I go ride them, but I never want."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you, you talked about your grandfather in shipping, but where did you grow up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 13.111502683426739, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So and they came to us to ask, not the other way. When our counterpart's wife was pregnant, Monica, with her second child. Her first child was born and he was missing fingers and stuff like that. And he was very sick. I gave her a bunch of my prenatal vitamins. Her second child is big. And I got to see him. The difference between the two, whether that was in vitamins or not, I think that's one part of it. You know, I think just knowing Americans. For me, what did it do for me? It one gave me a great appreciation for farmers, for people living off the land. When people say, oh, let's go live off the land, I say, do you know how hard it is to eat only what you grow? Very very hard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it cured you of that idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cured me completely of that idea. I do not want to grow. I mean, we had gardens in Denver and Austin, but I don't grow my own food, you know, building my own house. It also cured me of owning a horse. We own two horses and we had to take care of them. I love riding horses, but they are a lot of work. So my sister owns horses. She can have them. I go ride them, but I never want."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you, you talked about your grandfather in shipping, but where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Palo Alto, California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So not exactly rural."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.075929238798442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Palo Alto, California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So not exactly rural."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not rural at all. So yeah. So, you know, and the other thing, you know, that opened my eyes is. Well, I would say in my career, I got involved with a group out of the Organization of American States called the Pan American Institute of Geography and History, and it's a specialized organization of OAS, the Organization of American States, and it's been around since 1927 or something. So through my work with the U.S. Geological Survey and my Spanish and everything, I finally got the opportunity to participate with this group. And so they, you know, it's very bureaucracy, bureaucracy and high level, but they do science and history. And so by the end of my career, I ended up being one of the authorities. So I was appointed by our U.S. ambassador to the OAS to be in this position, which meant, you know, I have to go to the directing council, the General Assembly. I have oversight and decide what projects are going to be funded and so on and so forth.\n\nAnd then I retired and the position is for four years. So at the end of four years, I asked my deputy, my vice president, to flip with me because we wanted to continue for eight years. And she is so innovative and she's still working. So I'm the vice president now. She's the president, and so we're working with scientists and geographers, cartographers, geophysicists, and historians from all over Latin America. And so it's a totally different global population."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, it's knowing all these countries in Latin America, they're all different. You know, it's not, you know, just because I speak Spanish. Yeah, just like you in Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Very different. Very different."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.032011405924002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, it's knowing all these countries in Latin America, they're all different. You know, it's not, you know, just because I speak Spanish. Yeah, just like you in Africa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Very different. Very different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So but, you know, I wish that we could have had more of an impact on them. But I think Peace Corps decided that it was too isolated of a site to send anybody back again for many years. And this couple that was there three years ago, Patrick and Kirsten, she got really bad asthma and Peace Corps said, you have to leave. So they were very sad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nothing is as isolated as it used to be. Everybody has cell phones."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had cell phones, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It has changed the world completely."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.5911237843600015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So but, you know, I wish that we could have had more of an impact on them. But I think Peace Corps decided that it was too isolated of a site to send anybody back again for many years. And this couple that was there three years ago, Patrick and Kirsten, she got really bad asthma and Peace Corps said, you have to leave. So they were very sad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nothing is as isolated as it used to be. Everybody has cell phones."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had cell phones, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It has changed the world completely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It has, yes. And the internet. They didn't really have internet, but they had cell. Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's a whole, Peace Corps is a totally different experience as well now."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.212359760400002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had cell phones, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It has changed the world completely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It has, yes. And the internet. They didn't really have internet, but they had cell. Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's a whole, Peace Corps is a totally different experience as well now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just by the communication."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.902621956000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It has, yes. And the internet. They didn't really have internet, but they had cell. Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it's a whole, Peace Corps is a totally different experience as well now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just by the communication."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we were in the Peace Corps, we had little blue aerogram letters that we mailed back and forth. Different form of communication."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.5584688400000015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just by the communication."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we were in the Peace Corps, we had little blue aerogram letters that we mailed back and forth. Different form of communication."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. I remember getting that. We would actually get letters and National Geographic at our site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Great. Well, are there any, I guess I wanted to ask you one other question because you talked about being a married couple."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.287187600000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we were in the Peace Corps, we had little blue aerogram letters that we mailed back and forth. Different form of communication."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. I remember getting that. We would actually get letters and National Geographic at our site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Great. Well, are there any, I guess I wanted to ask you one other question because you talked about being a married couple."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was married, I was part of a couple as well. How do you think being a married couple impacts your Peace Corps experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.985764000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. I remember getting that. We would actually get letters and National Geographic at our site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Great. Well, are there any, I guess I wanted to ask you one other question because you talked about being a married couple."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was married, I was part of a couple as well. How do you think being a married couple impacts your Peace Corps experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that we relied on each other, so we actually didn't make as good of friends in the community as we would have if I'd been by myself. It made it easier because, you know, we had each other to bounce off our, you know, our failures, frustrations, whatever, and to do things together. So it wasn't lonely, as lonely. By the same token, I think my Spanish would have been better, and my Bribri would have been better, if I'd been single."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you might not have done it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.761960000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was married, I was part of a couple as well. How do you think being a married couple impacts your Peace Corps experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that we relied on each other, so we actually didn't make as good of friends in the community as we would have if I'd been by myself. It made it easier because, you know, we had each other to bounce off our, you know, our failures, frustrations, whatever, and to do things together. So it wasn't lonely, as lonely. By the same token, I think my Spanish would have been better, and my Bribri would have been better, if I'd been single."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you might not have done it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I probably wouldn't have done it. Exactly. You know, it would have been. I know it would have been too hard for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And has there been an impact on your kids of your Peace Corps experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 8.624400000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think that we relied on each other, so we actually didn't make as good of friends in the community as we would have if I'd been by myself. It made it easier because, you know, we had each other to bounce off our, you know, our failures, frustrations, whatever, and to do things together. So it wasn't lonely, as lonely. By the same token, I think my Spanish would have been better, and my Bribri would have been better, if I'd been single."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you might not have done it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I probably wouldn't have done it. Exactly. You know, it would have been. I know it would have been too hard for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And has there been an impact on your kids of your Peace Corps experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish there had been. I wish they had jumped up to do Peace Corps, but they are far from it. And when they were younger, they used to say, Mom. I have two daughters. Mom, I have nothing to wear. And I said, nothing to wear means you have two outfits. One's on you and the other one's wet. And they'd say, shut up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So didn't quite take."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.24, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wish there had been. I wish they had jumped up to do Peace Corps, but they are far from it. And when they were younger, they used to say, Mom. I have two daughters. Mom, I have nothing to wear. And I said, nothing to wear means you have two outfits. One's on you and the other one's wet. And they'd say, shut up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So didn't quite take."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it didn't. It didn't click. So my older daughter Amber has traveled, did semester in Madrid, did almost a year in Taiwan, and now she's a Washington Post reporter. My younger daughter really does not like travel. I mean, she does like travel, but it's got to be at the very high level. So they are way far from Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, this has been a really good interview. Are there any other stories you'd like to tell that you haven't told so far?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it didn't. It didn't click. So my older daughter Amber has traveled, did semester in Madrid, did almost a year in Taiwan, and now she's a Washington Post reporter. My younger daughter really does not like travel. I mean, she does like travel, but it's got to be at the very high level. So they are way far from Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very different."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, this has been a really good interview. Are there any other stories you'd like to tell that you haven't told so far?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, let me think for a minute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me ask you one more. So the impact of Peace Corps, the third goal coming home, you've talked about your Peace Corps involvement. Do you think there's been an impact in the United States of Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, this has been a really good interview. Are there any other stories you'd like to tell that you haven't told so far?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, let me think for a minute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me ask you one more. So the impact of Peace Corps, the third goal coming home, you've talked about your Peace Corps involvement. Do you think there's been an impact in the United States of Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you think? What do you think that impact has been?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, let me think for a minute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let me ask you one more. So the impact of Peace Corps, the third goal coming home, you've talked about your Peace Corps involvement. Do you think there's been an impact in the United States of Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you think? What do you think that impact has been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, countries of service like Iran and Liberia and others have actually done advocacy on the Hill and improved our relations with countries that are having, we're having a difficult time with, or are at war like Liberia. I do advocacy with the National Peace Corps Association. I think right now, you know, my understanding of what climate change is doing to, you know, these communities that don't have irrigation, don't have, you know, all the stuff we can have to import food or water. You know, that has really pushed me to do more work on, you know, global warming and conservation. So, yeah, I definitely think Peace Corps has a huge impact. It's just we need more volunteers, we need more people that have done it, and the budget is limited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least, it hasn't gone down of late."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you think? What do you think that impact has been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, countries of service like Iran and Liberia and others have actually done advocacy on the Hill and improved our relations with countries that are having, we're having a difficult time with, or are at war like Liberia. I do advocacy with the National Peace Corps Association. I think right now, you know, my understanding of what climate change is doing to, you know, these communities that don't have irrigation, don't have, you know, all the stuff we can have to import food or water. You know, that has really pushed me to do more work on, you know, global warming and conservation. So, yeah, I definitely think Peace Corps has a huge impact. It's just we need more volunteers, we need more people that have done it, and the budget is limited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least, it hasn't gone down of late."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hasn't gone down. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is a negative way of saying it. But at least you have some of that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, countries of service like Iran and Liberia and others have actually done advocacy on the Hill and improved our relations with countries that are having, we're having a difficult time with, or are at war like Liberia. I do advocacy with the National Peace Corps Association. I think right now, you know, my understanding of what climate change is doing to, you know, these communities that don't have irrigation, don't have, you know, all the stuff we can have to import food or water. You know, that has really pushed me to do more work on, you know, global warming and conservation. So, yeah, I definitely think Peace Corps has a huge impact. It's just we need more volunteers, we need more people that have done it, and the budget is limited."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At least, it hasn't gone down of late."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hasn't gone down. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is a negative way of saying it. But at least you have some of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are there any other things you'd like to say?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00083:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hasn't gone down. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is a negative way of saying it. But at least you have some of that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So are there any other things you'd like to say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I think that's all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was a lot of fun. Thank you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.13349453704648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m glad to be here. It’s fun thinking about the past, because it was such a great time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you have a great past."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve been very blessed. I have had a very diverse career, which is cool. I haven’t done the same thing for long periods of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s pretty unique around here. After you picked up the command module for ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project], what were your assignments? What were you working on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially I got assigned to start, during the approach and landing test [ALT] with the Shuttle Enterprise up on top of the 747, using my ground ops recovery background. We were trying to find what kind of equipment could we get up to the hatch on the Enterprise to be able to get the crew out in a hurry if we had to. [One option was] a cherry picker; you’ve seen fire trucks with certain systems like that. So I was assigned to look at the industry, what was available out there, and find out what NASA might be able to purchase to do that. I was doing that.\\n\\n I didn’t enjoy that very much. There wasn’t much to that. It wasn’t very challenging and wasn’t something I wanted to do. That was 1975. I didn’t do that very long because I was part of the approach and landing flight team, so in ’76, I think, Rod [T. Rodney] Loe, a branch chief in the Directorate there, back then it was Flight Operations Directorate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just like it is today."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.59277170782942, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve been very blessed. I have had a very diverse career, which is cool. I haven’t done the same thing for long periods of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s pretty unique around here. After you picked up the command module for ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project], what were your assignments? What were you working on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially I got assigned to start, during the approach and landing test [ALT] with the Shuttle Enterprise up on top of the 747, using my ground ops recovery background. We were trying to find what kind of equipment could we get up to the hatch on the Enterprise to be able to get the crew out in a hurry if we had to. [One option was] a cherry picker; you’ve seen fire trucks with certain systems like that. So I was assigned to look at the industry, what was available out there, and find out what NASA might be able to purchase to do that. I was doing that.\\n\\n I didn’t enjoy that very much. There wasn’t much to that. It wasn’t very challenging and wasn’t something I wanted to do. That was 1975. I didn’t do that very long because I was part of the approach and landing flight team, so in ’76, I think, Rod [T. Rodney] Loe, a branch chief in the Directorate there, back then it was Flight Operations Directorate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just like it is today."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s FOD again, yes. Rod was a branch chief [for the Electrical, Mechanical and Environmental Systems Branch]. He asked would I be interested in being involved in the Mission Control Center and flight control. So I’ll stop there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think about that idea when he approached you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 28.52232058687163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The area that Rod was involved in was electrical and environmental systems, early stages for Space Shuttle. I have a bit of electronic background, more as a hobby. I’ve got a physics-math major, but I’m an amateur ham radio operator—since 1957—and am very interested in radio and electronics.\\n\\n I think he had an idea that I had that interest, so [he] asked me would I be interested in coming to work for them. I didn’t go seek it out. I wasn’t looking for a job at the time. It’s interesting how I think a lot of my career, a lot of places I ended up, I was not seeking to go to those spots. They found me, which was interesting. [He] asked me, and I said, “Sure, I would enjoy doing that.” That’s how it started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to become certified at that point since you were going to be just working on ALT? Or was that a little bit different since this was a test flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. Certification basically very similar to what had been done before in Mission Control in the past. Your main exam would be how you handled yourself in simulations. We did a lot of simulations back also during the approach and landing test, during ALT. We did a lot of those. I had to study and learn the systems that I would be working with on the control team: electrical, environmental, mechanical. Did a lot of studying.\\n\\n Back then we didn’t have all the wonderful tools we’ve got today to where you can sit down at all these trainers. It’s really great today. Ours was mostly looking at circuit diagrams on paper, looking at the circuits and looking at how the system was put together. What this did over here to this over here, then simulations. So I did get certified to be a controller for ALT. I can continue."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s fine, you can keep going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Interesting. As I was thinking about coming over here today it dawned on me that I actually worked in the control center before this time, and that was back in recovery."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was thinking about that too. In the ROCR."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.345917097447247, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. EECOM really didn’t own the hydraulics and mechanical systems as it turns out. Of course Apollo was much different anyway. EECOM, that’s one of those call signs that will live forever. I suspect the EECOM organization, had we tried to use that in ALT, they might not have liked us to do that at that time, just because it didn’t exactly cover all that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got you. It just seems very unusual. You were one of two SMOKHEEs, you and Jack Knight. You mentioned in your book [Go Flight! The Unsung Heroes of Mission Control, 1965-1992], with Rick Houston that he really helped guide you along with, I think, Bill [William L.] Peters."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jack Knight, neighbor of mine, lives two blocks from me. I sat beside him of course. He was basically my mentor on console. Jack is brilliant, a good operator, and just a good man. He really helped me a great deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you learn from him? Was he TELMU [Telemetry, Electrical and EVA Mobility Officer] for Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he was. Two things probably really stood out. He never guessed anything. Of course not guessing is something that goes back in the control center ever since the beginning, it really does. You could tell he wouldn’t sit there and say, “I think, maybe.” He would pay attention to the data and take his time. If he didn’t know for sure he would tell flight director, “Stand by, I think I’ve got it here. Just give me a minute.”\\n\\n Since I was riding recovery ships during Apollo and I wasn’t in that environment, he taught me all the nuances of being an operator in Mission Control, in the room. How you communicate with each other in a way where you’re being very precise, to the point. He studied a lot. I learned all those nuances of being a person that would sit there at a console, look at what you got, decide what’s going on, make a decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In his interview Jack mentioned that there was a woman who was working with you guys."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.939907886052495, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jack Knight, neighbor of mine, lives two blocks from me. I sat beside him of course. He was basically my mentor on console. Jack is brilliant, a good operator, and just a good man. He really helped me a great deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you learn from him? Was he TELMU [Telemetry, Electrical and EVA Mobility Officer] for Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he was. Two things probably really stood out. He never guessed anything. Of course not guessing is something that goes back in the control center ever since the beginning, it really does. You could tell he wouldn’t sit there and say, “I think, maybe.” He would pay attention to the data and take his time. If he didn’t know for sure he would tell flight director, “Stand by, I think I’ve got it here. Just give me a minute.”\\n\\n Since I was riding recovery ships during Apollo and I wasn’t in that environment, he taught me all the nuances of being an operator in Mission Control, in the room. How you communicate with each other in a way where you’re being very precise, to the point. He studied a lot. I learned all those nuances of being a person that would sit there at a console, look at what you got, decide what’s going on, make a decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In his interview Jack mentioned that there was a woman who was working with you guys."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which I thought was unusual. Were there many women who were working in flight control for the ALT?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.71100876228055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he was. Two things probably really stood out. He never guessed anything. Of course not guessing is something that goes back in the control center ever since the beginning, it really does. You could tell he wouldn’t sit there and say, “I think, maybe.” He would pay attention to the data and take his time. If he didn’t know for sure he would tell flight director, “Stand by, I think I’ve got it here. Just give me a minute.”\\n\\n Since I was riding recovery ships during Apollo and I wasn’t in that environment, he taught me all the nuances of being an operator in Mission Control, in the room. How you communicate with each other in a way where you’re being very precise, to the point. He studied a lot. I learned all those nuances of being a person that would sit there at a console, look at what you got, decide what’s going on, make a decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In his interview Jack mentioned that there was a woman who was working with you guys."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which I thought was unusual. Were there many women who were working in flight control for the ALT?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I can’t remember her name right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I have it in here."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.678898624756165, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which I thought was unusual. Were there many women who were working in flight control for the ALT?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I can’t remember her name right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I have it in here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I should."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, actually I don’t. I thought I had it in here. I thought it was Ann.\n\nYes, it was Ann Austin."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 20.75433180528463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I can’t remember her name right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I have it in here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I should."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, actually I don’t. I thought I had it in here. I thought it was Ann.\n\nYes, it was Ann Austin."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Ann Austin. Oh, wait a minute. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The one with Larry [E.] Bell."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.504813116982923, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I should."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, actually I don’t. I thought I had it in here. I thought it was Ann.\n\nYes, it was Ann Austin."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Ann Austin. Oh, wait a minute. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The one with Larry [E.] Bell."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To answer your question, we had Linda [P.] Patterson in there back in the guidance and navigation area for ALT. Linda Patterson was there. In fact, I think I sent you yesterday a listing of all the people. It may even show another [woman].\\n\\n There was no need to spend a lot of money setting up a control room that had all the bells and whistles, at least the bells and whistles that existed in the Apollo days. Therefore, we found ways to do some of the jobs the old-fashioned way. Ann would sit between Jack and I with a clipboard and graph paper. We had auxiliary power units, APUs, the equipment that generated our hydraulic power. Of course they used hydrazine; they used fuel. She would look at the data on the console. She would look at the fuel quantity number and plot it on graph paper about every minute. Instead of having something that we could look at there [on console] and have it done by the computer, we would look down here at the graph paper, and we could tell if the auxiliary power unit was operating as it should, using the fuel like it should. That’s how we kept track of the usage rate of the fuel. That’s what she did. She basically provided that service to us, just another set of eyes to look at the data and tap us on the shoulder and say, “Have you seen that? What do you think about that?”\\n\\n She was also learning herself to eventually become an operator. I lost track of her. I don’t know what she did after that. I don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. That’s pretty old-school."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:34", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.388658169114716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To answer your question, we had Linda [P.] Patterson in there back in the guidance and navigation area for ALT. Linda Patterson was there. In fact, I think I sent you yesterday a listing of all the people. It may even show another [woman].\\n\\n There was no need to spend a lot of money setting up a control room that had all the bells and whistles, at least the bells and whistles that existed in the Apollo days. Therefore, we found ways to do some of the jobs the old-fashioned way. Ann would sit between Jack and I with a clipboard and graph paper. We had auxiliary power units, APUs, the equipment that generated our hydraulic power. Of course they used hydrazine; they used fuel. She would look at the data on the console. She would look at the fuel quantity number and plot it on graph paper about every minute. Instead of having something that we could look at there [on console] and have it done by the computer, we would look down here at the graph paper, and we could tell if the auxiliary power unit was operating as it should, using the fuel like it should. That’s how we kept track of the usage rate of the fuel. That’s what she did. She basically provided that service to us, just another set of eyes to look at the data and tap us on the shoulder and say, “Have you seen that? What do you think about that?”\\n\\n She was also learning herself to eventually become an operator. I lost track of her. I don’t know what she did after that. I don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. That’s pretty old-school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is. But sure enough that’s exactly what we did. We just looked down at this piece of graph paper. What’s interesting is that we did simulations. They would put in fuel leaks. After a while you can tell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fast-forward to when I started doing Shuttle work and we had strip-chart recorders sitting beside us. She was our strip-chart recorder. She was quieter than our strip-chart recorders too that we used in the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no doubt."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:36", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 20.431842410127462, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is. But sure enough that’s exactly what we did. We just looked down at this piece of graph paper. What’s interesting is that we did simulations. They would put in fuel leaks. After a while you can tell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fast-forward to when I started doing Shuttle work and we had strip-chart recorders sitting beside us. She was our strip-chart recorder. She was quieter than our strip-chart recorders too that we used in the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no doubt."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Having said that makes me think. This thought just popped in my mind. It got where I could sit in the back room during Shuttle in the position I worked during that time, and I could tell by the servomotor pitch, the sound of the motors, when things were changing on the spacecraft resulting in the pens moving on the strip-chart recorders. I could tell just by listening to it. I had to go look at it then, but I could say, “Oh, I hear.” Pitch gets higher on the strip-chart recorder. “Something’s changed.” I go over and take a look at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the sims that you guys did. Was the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator] running by that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:38", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.14649156680829, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fast-forward to when I started doing Shuttle work and we had strip-chart recorders sitting beside us. She was our strip-chart recorder. She was quieter than our strip-chart recorders too that we used in the Shuttle Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no doubt."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Having said that makes me think. This thought just popped in my mind. It got where I could sit in the back room during Shuttle in the position I worked during that time, and I could tell by the servomotor pitch, the sound of the motors, when things were changing on the spacecraft resulting in the pens moving on the strip-chart recorders. I could tell just by listening to it. I had to go look at it then, but I could say, “Oh, I hear.” Pitch gets higher on the strip-chart recorder. “Something’s changed.” I go over and take a look at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the sims that you guys did. Was the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator] running by that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For ALT? Yes, we had a simulator. Yes, we did. Over in Building 5 on a wall was a model of the Edwards Air Force Base [California] buildings, roads, runways. They had a visual that they could track to come into Edwards from all directions. If you went in Building 5, the wall was like a model Air Force base with little buildings and roads, and it had a camera mounted on it that would move along as they’re flying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As they’re landing. That’s interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:40", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 19.051657296453655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Having said that makes me think. This thought just popped in my mind. It got where I could sit in the back room during Shuttle in the position I worked during that time, and I could tell by the servomotor pitch, the sound of the motors, when things were changing on the spacecraft resulting in the pens moving on the strip-chart recorders. I could tell just by listening to it. I had to go look at it then, but I could say, “Oh, I hear.” Pitch gets higher on the strip-chart recorder. “Something’s changed.” I go over and take a look at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the sims that you guys did. Was the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator] running by that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For ALT? Yes, we had a simulator. Yes, we did. Over in Building 5 on a wall was a model of the Edwards Air Force Base [California] buildings, roads, runways. They had a visual that they could track to come into Edwards from all directions. If you went in Building 5, the wall was like a model Air Force base with little buildings and roads, and it had a camera mounted on it that would move along as they’re flying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As they’re landing. That’s interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we had a good simulator. I got to fly it one time as a matter of fact. They put in things to make sure you wouldn’t damage the model, because I didn’t fly very well. I headed for hangars and other buildings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From what I understand the SMS was not very reliable in those early days though. Did that create a problem for you guys when you were doing those integrated sims?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:50", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.885023110389085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was born and raised not far from where I was born and raised in Oklahoma. I came from a small town, Fairfax, and he was [from] Ponca City, not very far, both of us in Osage County. I’m not too sure I can characterize us Okies. But it seemed like we had a lot in common, maybe common sense sort of thing. Don was really sharp, but it was sometimes hard to tell. A technique that he would use to bring out more in conversations and dealings is he did not overuse the fact that he knew a lot.\\n\\n Something I think I learned from him too is he would work to be sure, “I’m trying to solve a problem here, but I want you to tell me how we’re going to solve this problem. Maybe up here [demonstrates] I know exactly what I want to do, but I want you to [tell me].” It would reinforce what he was thinking, but also he’s teaching too. He’s teaching the person to be confident enough to come up with the solution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I also wanted to ask you about Deke [Donald K.] Slayton. Obviously you had worked on ASTP [Apollo-Soyuz Test Project], and he was head of the ALT Program. Did you work with him much at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Not really. I only saw him in meetings that I would be in leading up to either an Apollo mission or ALT. I did not know him well at all. Certainly glad that he got to fly even though it was the last Apollo class mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure he was glad too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. That was a good crew. Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford, fellow Oklahoman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we get to it, Shannon [W.] Lucid told me that you were her flight director for her first mission. It’s funny how you guys all have that connection as you pointed out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:52", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.316692344876762, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Not really. I only saw him in meetings that I would be in leading up to either an Apollo mission or ALT. I did not know him well at all. Certainly glad that he got to fly even though it was the last Apollo class mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure he was glad too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. That was a good crew. Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford, fellow Oklahoman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we get to it, Shannon [W.] Lucid told me that you were her flight director for her first mission. It’s funny how you guys all have that connection as you pointed out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Shannon is one of my favorites. She made an excellent CapCom [Capsule Communicator] too in Mission Control. She was one of the best. Of course she has a voice that you can hear pretty good too. She’s good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s a very congenial person."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:54", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.907435938751957, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. That was a good crew. Tom [Thomas P.] Stafford, fellow Oklahoman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we get to it, Shannon [W.] Lucid told me that you were her flight director for her first mission. It’s funny how you guys all have that connection as you pointed out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Shannon is one of my favorites. She made an excellent CapCom [Capsule Communicator] too in Mission Control. She was one of the best. Of course she has a voice that you can hear pretty good too. She’s good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s a very congenial person."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of the various test flights? Anything stand out for you from that time period?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:56", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.563817709724397, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Shannon is one of my favorites. She made an excellent CapCom [Capsule Communicator] too in Mission Control. She was one of the best. Of course she has a voice that you can hear pretty good too. She’s good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s a very congenial person."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of the various test flights? Anything stand out for you from that time period?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the ALT period? I was thinking about that yesterday, what kind of anomalies that we had. I think we had an auxiliary power unit problem. We had three [APUs]. I think we had a problem with one of those. I remember the time when it happened. I don’t remember whether I was prime or whether Jack was prime. In simulations we have failures all the time, and we had very few during the ALT test, very few. When we had something, it was fairly significant. It wasn’t dangerous, but it was a significant problem with the APU. I remember when we took care of it and it was done, I thought to myself you know what, that didn’t feel hard at all. It just didn’t feel hard at all. Thinking about that, it probably says a lot about how you prepare for or train to do that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gave you that extra dose of confidence that you could continue down that way."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:58", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.404241899693773, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of the various test flights? Anything stand out for you from that time period?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the ALT period? I was thinking about that yesterday, what kind of anomalies that we had. I think we had an auxiliary power unit problem. We had three [APUs]. I think we had a problem with one of those. I remember the time when it happened. I don’t remember whether I was prime or whether Jack was prime. In simulations we have failures all the time, and we had very few during the ALT test, very few. When we had something, it was fairly significant. It wasn’t dangerous, but it was a significant problem with the APU. I remember when we took care of it and it was done, I thought to myself you know what, that didn’t feel hard at all. It just didn’t feel hard at all. Thinking about that, it probably says a lot about how you prepare for or train to do that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gave you that extra dose of confidence that you could continue down that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Flight controllers are known for playing pranks on each other. Did you guys have any pranks or any jokes during the ALT Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:60", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 20.449157666326414, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the ALT period? I was thinking about that yesterday, what kind of anomalies that we had. I think we had an auxiliary power unit problem. We had three [APUs]. I think we had a problem with one of those. I remember the time when it happened. I don’t remember whether I was prime or whether Jack was prime. In simulations we have failures all the time, and we had very few during the ALT test, very few. When we had something, it was fairly significant. It wasn’t dangerous, but it was a significant problem with the APU. I remember when we took care of it and it was done, I thought to myself you know what, that didn’t feel hard at all. It just didn’t feel hard at all. Thinking about that, it probably says a lot about how you prepare for or train to do that job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gave you that extra dose of confidence that you could continue down that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Flight controllers are known for playing pranks on each other. Did you guys have any pranks or any jokes during the ALT Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh gosh. Now do you know something? I’m sitting here. One doesn’t pop out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I always like to ask people."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:62", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.943508518140462, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Flight controllers are known for playing pranks on each other. Did you guys have any pranks or any jokes during the ALT Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh gosh. Now do you know something? I’m sitting here. One doesn’t pop out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I always like to ask people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually there’s a prank we’ll share on the Shuttle side whenever we get there. We had some characters for sure. Hershel [R.] Perkins was a guidance and navigation kind of guy. The thing about Hershel, he was a jokester but not in the control room. Outside the control room, this guy could do all kinds of weird things.\\n\\n As far as anything during ALT or training during ALT, none of that occurred that I can think of. Puddy wouldn’t stand for it for one thing, and people knew that we shouldn’t do that. Outside the control room we had a great time.\\n\\n Linda Patterson, like Ann, sat with us to watch APU fuel. Linda Patterson and the guidance, navigation, and control for ALT, she was to look at what was called differences in pressure between a couple of systems that were used for providing data to guide, fly the Enterprise. She had her own little position. It wasn’t a prime position, it was a position in support of one of the prime positions in the room, but she was in the room. Her call sign was Delta P, D-E-L-T-A for delta P, delta pressure. Delta P. That was her name. Somewhere along the line we came up with a version of “Delta Dawn” for Linda Patterson. Believe it or not, when we were all done with ALT, [and] we’re having our big blowout party, I sang it to her in public. I think I’ve got the words to it at home somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you have them we can put it in your transcript.\n\nIn the official record.\n\nThat’s right."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:64", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.603898353489402, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh gosh. Now do you know something? I’m sitting here. One doesn’t pop out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I always like to ask people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually there’s a prank we’ll share on the Shuttle side whenever we get there. We had some characters for sure. Hershel [R.] Perkins was a guidance and navigation kind of guy. The thing about Hershel, he was a jokester but not in the control room. Outside the control room, this guy could do all kinds of weird things.\\n\\n As far as anything during ALT or training during ALT, none of that occurred that I can think of. Puddy wouldn’t stand for it for one thing, and people knew that we shouldn’t do that. Outside the control room we had a great time.\\n\\n Linda Patterson, like Ann, sat with us to watch APU fuel. Linda Patterson and the guidance, navigation, and control for ALT, she was to look at what was called differences in pressure between a couple of systems that were used for providing data to guide, fly the Enterprise. She had her own little position. It wasn’t a prime position, it was a position in support of one of the prime positions in the room, but she was in the room. Her call sign was Delta P, D-E-L-T-A for delta P, delta pressure. Delta P. That was her name. Somewhere along the line we came up with a version of “Delta Dawn” for Linda Patterson. Believe it or not, when we were all done with ALT, [and] we’re having our big blowout party, I sang it to her in public. I think I’ve got the words to it at home somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you have them we can put it in your transcript.\n\nIn the official record.\n\nThat’s right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As long as I don’t have to sing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t have to sing it. We’ll look for the video now that you mentioned it. Maybe somebody videoed it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:66", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.448775948321558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually there’s a prank we’ll share on the Shuttle side whenever we get there. We had some characters for sure. Hershel [R.] Perkins was a guidance and navigation kind of guy. The thing about Hershel, he was a jokester but not in the control room. Outside the control room, this guy could do all kinds of weird things.\\n\\n As far as anything during ALT or training during ALT, none of that occurred that I can think of. Puddy wouldn’t stand for it for one thing, and people knew that we shouldn’t do that. Outside the control room we had a great time.\\n\\n Linda Patterson, like Ann, sat with us to watch APU fuel. Linda Patterson and the guidance, navigation, and control for ALT, she was to look at what was called differences in pressure between a couple of systems that were used for providing data to guide, fly the Enterprise. She had her own little position. It wasn’t a prime position, it was a position in support of one of the prime positions in the room, but she was in the room. Her call sign was Delta P, D-E-L-T-A for delta P, delta pressure. Delta P. That was her name. Somewhere along the line we came up with a version of “Delta Dawn” for Linda Patterson. Believe it or not, when we were all done with ALT, [and] we’re having our big blowout party, I sang it to her in public. I think I’ve got the words to it at home somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you have them we can put it in your transcript.\n\nIn the official record.\n\nThat’s right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As long as I don’t have to sing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t have to sing it. We’ll look for the video now that you mentioned it. Maybe somebody videoed it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Delta P, what’s that pressure you all see?” Oh gosh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got to have something to break the tension."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:70", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.49863994257951, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As long as I don’t have to sing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You don’t have to sing it. We’ll look for the video now that you mentioned it. Maybe somebody videoed it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Delta P, what’s that pressure you all see?” Oh gosh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got to have something to break the tension."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they reconfigure the ROCR much for ALT?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:72", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.331822158421677, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "“Delta P, what’s that pressure you all see?” Oh gosh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got to have something to break the tension."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they reconfigure the ROCR much for ALT?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. The consoles in there were somewhat different. We had a number of big plot boards that we used in the Recovery Control Room, plot boards on which a TV was on top looking down, a map of the landing area, where you kept track of ships. Back in those days, early Apollo for sure and not so much later on, we had ships all around the world, aircraft staging bases all around the world primed and ready to go.\\n\\n Yes, it was different. Interesting you ask the question because one of the guys that worked there sent us an e-mail here a couple weeks ago. He came back here. He lives out of town now. Brought some grandkids and they went into the ROCR as it exists today. It’s a storage room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s what I’ve been told."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:74", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.368691287135196, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they reconfigure the ROCR much for ALT?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. The consoles in there were somewhat different. We had a number of big plot boards that we used in the Recovery Control Room, plot boards on which a TV was on top looking down, a map of the landing area, where you kept track of ships. Back in those days, early Apollo for sure and not so much later on, we had ships all around the world, aircraft staging bases all around the world primed and ready to go.\\n\\n Yes, it was different. Interesting you ask the question because one of the guys that worked there sent us an e-mail here a couple weeks ago. He came back here. He lives out of town now. Brought some grandkids and they went into the ROCR as it exists today. It’s a storage room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s what I’ve been told."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What’s really weird about it is it’s got some old TV monitors, quite a few. I’m thinking, “Why haven’t we excessed all that stuff?” I can’t believe it’s still there. The room looks nothing like it used to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s an effort to restore the MOCR. That room is not included; they’re just going to replace that window."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:76", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.18743476348355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. The consoles in there were somewhat different. We had a number of big plot boards that we used in the Recovery Control Room, plot boards on which a TV was on top looking down, a map of the landing area, where you kept track of ships. Back in those days, early Apollo for sure and not so much later on, we had ships all around the world, aircraft staging bases all around the world primed and ready to go.\\n\\n Yes, it was different. Interesting you ask the question because one of the guys that worked there sent us an e-mail here a couple weeks ago. He came back here. He lives out of town now. Brought some grandkids and they went into the ROCR as it exists today. It’s a storage room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s what I’ve been told."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What’s really weird about it is it’s got some old TV monitors, quite a few. I’m thinking, “Why haven’t we excessed all that stuff?” I can’t believe it’s still there. The room looks nothing like it used to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s an effort to restore the MOCR. That room is not included; they’re just going to replace that window."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I stay in tune with that a great deal. Oh yes. Try to get the MOCR restored to Apollo 15 configuration, which is what they’ve got the most documentation on. Get it ready for the fiftieth anniversary of Apollo 11. That’ll be cool. If they can truly put that room back together to where there won’t be anybody in it but it will look like the team just walked out, that’d be cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I think it will be. They have good plans. After ALT was finished what were you working on until STS-1 flew? Were you working on flight rules? Subsystems?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:78", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.87492751498172, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What’s really weird about it is it’s got some old TV monitors, quite a few. I’m thinking, “Why haven’t we excessed all that stuff?” I can’t believe it’s still there. The room looks nothing like it used to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s an effort to restore the MOCR. That room is not included; they’re just going to replace that window."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I stay in tune with that a great deal. Oh yes. Try to get the MOCR restored to Apollo 15 configuration, which is what they’ve got the most documentation on. Get it ready for the fiftieth anniversary of Apollo 11. That’ll be cool. If they can truly put that room back together to where there won’t be anybody in it but it will look like the team just walked out, that’d be cool."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I think it will be. They have good plans. After ALT was finished what were you working on until STS-1 flew? Were you working on flight rules? Subsystems?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the above, all the below. I continued to work in the Electrical, Environmental, and Mechanical Branch, and I was training to be electrical power system [officer]; EPS was the call sign. In the back room, the MPSR we called it, the Multi-Purpose Support Room—[I sat in] the back room for the front room position called EGIL [Electrical Power, Instrumentation, and Lighting Systems Engineer] for STS-1. I was in training to be the ascent EPS position working for Bill [William J.] Moon, who was the EGIL, he was going to be the prime EGIL for the launch of STS-1. I continued to learn the systems. We started doing simulations. We’ve talked about that. Did a lot of simulations in preparation to support the first launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you keep up with all of the systems? It’s my understanding that things evolved over time. They weren’t just static at that point. So how did you keep up with all the changes that were happening?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:88", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.520055403108802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Made many trips out there. Didn’t spend a lot of time out there. We had a great staff of Rockwell folks here, very handy, very personable. I was very close to the fuel cells for the Shuttle Orbiter. We had the contractor expert. Engineering here at the Space Center had somebody who was assigned to the fuel cells. In operations myself and my colleagues, we were responsible for the fuel cells too. We were a very close-knit group: operator, engineer, contractor all together in sync. These documents that we built, these drawings that we did, they were all done collectively, we worked on them together so that everybody would be in sync with that.\\n\\n It was almost a very formal informal way to learn all this stuff. You weren’t sitting in a classroom having somebody [teach you]. You were doing it yourself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like a great hands-on opportunity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something you have a lot of people do, I definitely have learned that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. In fact, I prefer that way if I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What sort of flight rules did you come up with with the fuel cells initially or even the lighting? That sounds unusual to come up with flight rules for lighting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:90", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.355617114565334, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something you have a lot of people do, I definitely have learned that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. In fact, I prefer that way if I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What sort of flight rules did you come up with with the fuel cells initially or even the lighting? That sounds unusual to come up with flight rules for lighting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lighting wasn’t involved. Wasn’t anything on lighting that we had to do. The fuel cell, you would monitor pressures and temperatures, electrical current. You knew what the limitations were. With temperature measurements inside the fuel cell at different points you know how this thing is working, and you know how it should work. You see a temperature change in a certain area, you wonder, “Now okay, what’s that? What’s happening there.” You learn to see a piece of data. When you see a piece of data, it’s a piece of data. It’s maybe one thing. You need to know now what else can I look at to see if that’s real.\\n\\n Again you can see how all this gets tied together from a learning standpoint of building all these procedures and all these rules. You build your displays. You come up with your display in the control center that you design, and you have it built in a way so that you know it’s set up so that you can look at it and almost instantaneously get a feel for what you’re seeing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take us back to that first launch attempt of STS-1, which didn’t go off as expected. What are your recollections of that day and the next day?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:92", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.395130127294813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. In fact, I prefer that way if I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What sort of flight rules did you come up with with the fuel cells initially or even the lighting? That sounds unusual to come up with flight rules for lighting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Lighting wasn’t involved. Wasn’t anything on lighting that we had to do. The fuel cell, you would monitor pressures and temperatures, electrical current. You knew what the limitations were. With temperature measurements inside the fuel cell at different points you know how this thing is working, and you know how it should work. You see a temperature change in a certain area, you wonder, “Now okay, what’s that? What’s happening there.” You learn to see a piece of data. When you see a piece of data, it’s a piece of data. It’s maybe one thing. You need to know now what else can I look at to see if that’s real.\\n\\n Again you can see how all this gets tied together from a learning standpoint of building all these procedures and all these rules. You build your displays. You come up with your display in the control center that you design, and you have it built in a way so that you know it’s set up so that you can look at it and almost instantaneously get a feel for what you’re seeing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Take us back to that first launch attempt of STS-1, which didn’t go off as expected. What are your recollections of that day and the next day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t remember. Can you remember how many attempts were tried?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was twice."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:96", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 20.364358181845446, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t remember. Can you remember how many attempts were tried?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was twice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gosh, all these run together. For me as a flight controller, this is my first time to be sitting here monitoring some systems with a spacecraft going into space. I simulated [missions], but this is for real.\\n\\n Bill Moon was the EGIL out front in the front room. Of course he and I had little conversations. For some reason even though the simulator never showed this—and it makes sense—somehow I thought at liftoff I’m going to see some changes. This thing has been sitting on the ground. I’m watching fuel cells, electrical power distribution. I can monitor electrical currents in all portions of the Orbiter. I can see what was going on. Strip charts are running at high speed now. There’s a whine going on. We lift off, and I’m expecting to just see some changes.\\n\\n Man, a minute, two minutes, three minutes into this launch, and nothing’s changing on this system. It’s just humming right along; nothing’s happening. That was a big surprise. Why I thought that would happen I have no idea, because I never saw it in simulations. Folks knew that it wasn’t going to change much. Hell, I should have known it wasn’t going to change much. But I expected man, when this thing gets up and goes, I’m going to see a lot of changes. Didn’t. That was a big surprise. Did that come close to answering you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, I have no answers here. You’re the expert, not me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Having said that, let me take you to the next flight, on STS-2."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which you were in the front room according to the paperwork I have."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:104", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.072028931329747, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The one fuel cell, like I said, when they make electricity, one of the by-products is water, and that gets pumped out of the fuel cell into a water tank. The water pump for that one fuel cell had failed. “Okay, what can we do now? What do we need to do to fix that in the future?” All that was done eventually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before the flight flew, there was an issue with the APUs. Was that something that you were involved with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "On STS-2?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On STS-2."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. Interesting about the APUs. We learned a lot about the APUs as we were flying of course. I’m trying to think was there some temperature something associated with it.\\n\\n I don’t remember. It’s interesting how over time, boy, we learned a lot through the early Shuttle flights, really learned a lot about the hardware and the APUs in particular, [which are] fairly temperature-sensitive. Of course they’re not used once you’re in space; [they are] shut down. You got to babysit them, you got to be sure that the temperatures and the heaters associated with the APU system in the tail end of the Orbiter is working right, the temperatures are going to be okay. In the Shuttle Program I do recall the APUs were a topic quite often pre- flight. I just don’t remember all the details of how that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a long time ago."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:106", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 23.413365479255273, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On STS-2?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On STS-2."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. Interesting about the APUs. We learned a lot about the APUs as we were flying of course. I’m trying to think was there some temperature something associated with it.\\n\\n I don’t remember. It’s interesting how over time, boy, we learned a lot through the early Shuttle flights, really learned a lot about the hardware and the APUs in particular, [which are] fairly temperature-sensitive. Of course they’re not used once you’re in space; [they are] shut down. You got to babysit them, you got to be sure that the temperatures and the heaters associated with the APU system in the tail end of the Orbiter is working right, the temperatures are going to be okay. In the Shuttle Program I do recall the APUs were a topic quite often pre- flight. I just don’t remember all the details of how that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a long time ago."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time too as an EGIL, different than ALT, I no longer was responsible for the APU mechanical system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did not know that. I assumed that was part of your system."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:108", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.681517199172525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. Interesting about the APUs. We learned a lot about the APUs as we were flying of course. I’m trying to think was there some temperature something associated with it.\\n\\n I don’t remember. It’s interesting how over time, boy, we learned a lot through the early Shuttle flights, really learned a lot about the hardware and the APUs in particular, [which are] fairly temperature-sensitive. Of course they’re not used once you’re in space; [they are] shut down. You got to babysit them, you got to be sure that the temperatures and the heaters associated with the APU system in the tail end of the Orbiter is working right, the temperatures are going to be okay. In the Shuttle Program I do recall the APUs were a topic quite often pre- flight. I just don’t remember all the details of how that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a long time ago."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time too as an EGIL, different than ALT, I no longer was responsible for the APU mechanical system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did not know that. I assumed that was part of your system."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was STS-2. It was either STS-3 or 4. EGIL went away, and EECOM showed back up. Or EECOM was there already, and we had a position for the mechanical systems: MMACS [Maintenance, Mechanical, Arm, and Crew Systems]. They had the APU system back then. EGIL eventually went away, and the electrical power system moved back into the EECOM realm. I ended up as an EECOM later, I can’t remember, STS-4, something like that I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was curious about that. Do you know why that happened, why that switch was made?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:118", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.658397600590227, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There’s nothing that stands out to me now during any of those flights that I worked. [STS-3], it wasn’t a problem with any of the systems that I was responsible for, but we landed at White Sands [Northrup Strip, New Mexico]. I can still see on the TV one of the network [reporters] out there talking about this. This reporter was standing there, and he could hardly even stand up in all the wind. I can remember, “We’re going to land there?” We did. Somewhere along the line we did a night launch, didn’t we?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was STS-8."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was a big deal to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sally [K.] Ride’s flight—."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that was Guy [Guion S.] Bluford, but Sally flew on the previous flight, on STS-7. Don’t know if that was anything new. STS-5, you flew mission specialists for the first time. None of those relate to your systems, but I don’t know if those [stand out]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:120", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 29.620441778433584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was a big deal to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sally [K.] Ride’s flight—."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that was Guy [Guion S.] Bluford, but Sally flew on the previous flight, on STS-7. Don’t know if that was anything new. STS-5, you flew mission specialists for the first time. None of those relate to your systems, but I don’t know if those [stand out]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nothing really stands out. I know once I got to where I was an EECOM there isn’t anything that really stands out as being something that was really significant that I dealt with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s turn our attention to flight director. You decided at some point you wanted to become a flight director. How did you reach that decision?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:122", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.46715753159287, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that was Guy [Guion S.] Bluford, but Sally flew on the previous flight, on STS-7. Don’t know if that was anything new. STS-5, you flew mission specialists for the first time. None of those relate to your systems, but I don’t know if those [stand out]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nothing really stands out. I know once I got to where I was an EECOM there isn’t anything that really stands out as being something that was really significant that I dealt with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s turn our attention to flight director. You decided at some point you wanted to become a flight director. How did you reach that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s another one of those [stories]. Bill Moon was my section head at the time. For some reason, I waited till the afternoon of the last day. Of course I had to get my supervisor to do some stuff too, the last day.\\n\\n Bill and I are very close. Walked into Bill’s office. I cannot tell you exactly why I stalled for so long and then what caused me to do that. I don’t really remember what caused that. I walked in and said, “Bill, I think I want to go ahead and put my application in for the flight director job.” Which was okay with him, but he looked at me and said, “Do you know what I got to do?” But he did it.\\n\\n I’m not kidding you. Obviously I had some help. Randy [Brock R.] Stone for example, very very dear, rest his soul, friend of mine. I owe him a lot. I even made the comment in my part of the book [Go Flight! The Unsung Heroes of Mission Control, 1965-1992], about the fact that he was in my corner when I didn’t know I needed him in my corner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that? That was one of the questions I wanted to ask."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:124", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 31.63017503510319, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nothing really stands out. I know once I got to where I was an EECOM there isn’t anything that really stands out as being something that was really significant that I dealt with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s turn our attention to flight director. You decided at some point you wanted to become a flight director. How did you reach that decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s another one of those [stories]. Bill Moon was my section head at the time. For some reason, I waited till the afternoon of the last day. Of course I had to get my supervisor to do some stuff too, the last day.\\n\\n Bill and I are very close. Walked into Bill’s office. I cannot tell you exactly why I stalled for so long and then what caused me to do that. I don’t really remember what caused that. I walked in and said, “Bill, I think I want to go ahead and put my application in for the flight director job.” Which was okay with him, but he looked at me and said, “Do you know what I got to do?” But he did it.\\n\\n I’m not kidding you. Obviously I had some help. Randy [Brock R.] Stone for example, very very dear, rest his soul, friend of mine. I owe him a lot. I even made the comment in my part of the book [Go Flight! The Unsung Heroes of Mission Control, 1965-1992], about the fact that he was in my corner when I didn’t know I needed him in my corner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that? That was one of the questions I wanted to ask."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came close to not making the grade as a flight director. I came real close."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I read that in the book about Tommy [Thomas W. Holloway and his reservations about your abilities]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:126", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 32.92241670567021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s another one of those [stories]. Bill Moon was my section head at the time. For some reason, I waited till the afternoon of the last day. Of course I had to get my supervisor to do some stuff too, the last day.\\n\\n Bill and I are very close. Walked into Bill’s office. I cannot tell you exactly why I stalled for so long and then what caused me to do that. I don’t really remember what caused that. I walked in and said, “Bill, I think I want to go ahead and put my application in for the flight director job.” Which was okay with him, but he looked at me and said, “Do you know what I got to do?” But he did it.\\n\\n I’m not kidding you. Obviously I had some help. Randy [Brock R.] Stone for example, very very dear, rest his soul, friend of mine. I owe him a lot. I even made the comment in my part of the book [Go Flight! The Unsung Heroes of Mission Control, 1965-1992], about the fact that he was in my corner when I didn’t know I needed him in my corner."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about that? That was one of the questions I wanted to ask."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came close to not making the grade as a flight director. I came real close."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I read that in the book about Tommy [Thomas W. Holloway and his reservations about your abilities]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came real close. I’ll put it to you this way. I was not assertive enough. I was too nice of a guy. Mr. Holloway, who was my boss, let me know that. I’ve had fine supervisors throughout my career, some better than others. I’ve had a good set of supervisors, but Mr. Holloway was the first and really only supervisor that I had that took me aside and said, “Heflin, you ain’t going make it.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been a hard conversation to have."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:128", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.2471296729669, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came close to not making the grade as a flight director. I came real close."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I read that in the book about Tommy [Thomas W. Holloway and his reservations about your abilities]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came real close. I’ll put it to you this way. I was not assertive enough. I was too nice of a guy. Mr. Holloway, who was my boss, let me know that. I’ve had fine supervisors throughout my career, some better than others. I’ve had a good set of supervisors, but Mr. Holloway was the first and really only supervisor that I had that took me aside and said, “Heflin, you ain’t going make it.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been a hard conversation to have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. I was in the Flight Director Office, and I’d already worked a few missions as a flight director that went well. It was basically, “Heflin, you have got to find a way to be large and in charge. You can’t always be a nice guy.”\\n\\n This was right around the Challenger [STS-51L] time too as it turns out, because he had scheduled me for a class in Louisiana, I think, a training course to go to learn how to be assertive. Challenger happened, and we had to reschedule it. It was during that period of time. That was a rough period for me, really rough. Rescheduled it for me and had to take it in New York City, and that was another story, just surviving a cab ride in New York City. I’m lucky to be alive today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned Randy Stone, and how he was always in your corner, which led to our discussion about Tommy."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:130", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 36.941255192185444, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came real close. I’ll put it to you this way. I was not assertive enough. I was too nice of a guy. Mr. Holloway, who was my boss, let me know that. I’ve had fine supervisors throughout my career, some better than others. I’ve had a good set of supervisors, but Mr. Holloway was the first and really only supervisor that I had that took me aside and said, “Heflin, you ain’t going make it.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been a hard conversation to have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. I was in the Flight Director Office, and I’d already worked a few missions as a flight director that went well. It was basically, “Heflin, you have got to find a way to be large and in charge. You can’t always be a nice guy.”\\n\\n This was right around the Challenger [STS-51L] time too as it turns out, because he had scheduled me for a class in Louisiana, I think, a training course to go to learn how to be assertive. Challenger happened, and we had to reschedule it. It was during that period of time. That was a rough period for me, really rough. Rescheduled it for me and had to take it in New York City, and that was another story, just surviving a cab ride in New York City. I’m lucky to be alive today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned Randy Stone, and how he was always in your corner, which led to our discussion about Tommy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he stood up for me a lot during this period. I know he talked to Holloway. I didn’t hear the conversation, but I’m sure that he convinced Holloway, “Hey, let’s don’t give up on him yet.” Yes, interesting. It’s hard to believe that that’s a true story, but it is. I look back during that time, and I could see where there were times when I needed to be a little stronger in certain situations than I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give an example or two?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:134", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 44.371919990352396, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he stood up for me a lot during this period. I know he talked to Holloway. I didn’t hear the conversation, but I’m sure that he convinced Holloway, “Hey, let’s don’t give up on him yet.” Yes, interesting. It’s hard to believe that that’s a true story, but it is. I look back during that time, and I could see where there were times when I needed to be a little stronger in certain situations than I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give an example or two?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think one of my strengths is I know how to not get in the way of good people that are working for me. I really do. I think that has been a strength. People would ask me, “How in the world do you ever stand the pressure of being a flight director in Mission Control?”\\n\\n I say, “Look around me. See what I’ve got in here. These people will tackle me before I do something stupid.” I believe that.\\n\\n Also I’m a good listener, but I think I probably listened too much. I did not enter the conversation as much as I probably needed to do during these times. I didn’t ask the questions I probably should [have been] asking. Eventually these things came out, but I could have helped by being just a little more aggressive, “Tell me why you’re thinking that. I’m not sure I understand that. Tell me that again.” I may be sitting there thinking, “I like what I’m hearing from this person,” but make him prove it. Come on, let’s be sure that this is really what we want to do. I just needed to be more aggressive in those sorts of situations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Part of that tough aspect of MOD [Mission Operations Directorate] at that point? Tough and competent?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Tough and competent. Tough and competent. Sure, yes. Maybe I’m stalling here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you’re not stalling. I’ve got a few more questions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:150", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.3076547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was Houston Press a couple weeks later had a column in there about—the title had something to do with turkeys and Mission Control. No names appeared. In fact, it didn’t even say that the flight director got hooked on this thing, but it said a prank had been made in Mission Control.\\n\\n After talking to Brewster, I never heard from anybody. Nobody bugged me about it. So Brewster probably did a little stuff in the meantime to calm things down too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did want to go back and talk about just a couple of missions prior to Challenger. One being your first mission, which was [STS]-51D, because that was a pretty significant mission. You were on planning shift. That was the flyswatter mission. I wondered what your role was in coming up with that concept and those ideas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the planning team, probably [the] thing I did best was I didn’t get in anybody’s way. My very first shift as a flight director [was] on the planning team, that’s where you start. By the time I was on shift the people in the daytime had already figured out how they were going to fix it. Actually it was a good period of time for me because my role was to be sure that the package we were sending up to the crew of the next day’s activities—that was our job—was exactly what they needed.\\n\\n My team’s job was to take these ideas and the raw procedures and get them dressed up enough to send up to the crew. [This was] back in the old days where we had a teleprinter on board and had stuff printed out. As far as me contributing to the concept, I’m pretty sure I didn’t have anything to do with that at all. I simply was one who helped make sure my team had the package put together. I’d forgotten the old flyswatter thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in the room when they tried to reactivate the satellite?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not. I wasn’t on shift then. I don’t remember exactly how I had heard about that. It was a good attempt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it’s an interesting idea."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:152", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.786283000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On the planning team, probably [the] thing I did best was I didn’t get in anybody’s way. My very first shift as a flight director [was] on the planning team, that’s where you start. By the time I was on shift the people in the daytime had already figured out how they were going to fix it. Actually it was a good period of time for me because my role was to be sure that the package we were sending up to the crew of the next day’s activities—that was our job—was exactly what they needed.\\n\\n My team’s job was to take these ideas and the raw procedures and get them dressed up enough to send up to the crew. [This was] back in the old days where we had a teleprinter on board and had stuff printed out. As far as me contributing to the concept, I’m pretty sure I didn’t have anything to do with that at all. I simply was one who helped make sure my team had the package put together. I’d forgotten the old flyswatter thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you in the room when they tried to reactivate the satellite?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was not. I wasn’t on shift then. I don’t remember exactly how I had heard about that. It was a good attempt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, it’s an interesting idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Remember when we grabbed the satellite by hand, the three folks? I worked that flight as well. I really feel that that was one of my better times. [I] was again on the planning team. I can’t remember which mission that was.\\n\\n The planning team puts these packages together and [has] got to do them right. A lot of effort would go into making sure they’re right. We had to rerendezvous too, which we hadn’t planned on doing. How did this go? Is that right? We had to rerendezvous. Help me out here. Had we deployed and it not worked?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that was the case."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00236:162", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 6.7, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "True story, yes. During the flight Nelson was also a camera hog. He liked the camera. Here’s Heflin, who allowed somebody to do a joke on him, and I’m about ready to do the same thing on this senator. Back in the days we had middeck, flight deck, and any time you turned on the camera you told the crew on board, “Hey, is it okay if we come on board on the middeck?” Just to let them know [you are watching]. They say yes or no. Usually it was yes.\\n\\n The PAO [Public Affairs Officer] is changing around, looking at different stuff. I’m sitting there watching this thing. I noticed that every time we switched to one deck, just a few seconds later Nelson was there. Watched this for a little bit. Sure enough. Couple swaps of camera, [there was] Nelson. INCO [Instrumentation and Communications Officer], a position in the control center who maintains and controls those cameras [and] commands them, [could] do split screen. I looked at INCO and I said, “Hey, INCO, can you give us a split screen, please?” Nelson didn’t know what to do. I’m serious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Actually he sort of knew what to do. He was here, then he was here, then he was here, then he was here. True story."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it change things having a politician on board compared to other astronauts that you had worked with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Nelson was a good listener. He knew there were things that he’s not going to mess with. Any time I saw him at any gathering, it was rare that he would say anything. He’s working with the crew, but in our technical meetings or flight techniques, [he was] just a good listener. I never noticed anything except the things I’ve told you about. I never noticed anything to cause us to have any difficulties in integrating him into the process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you were training to be a lead flight director. Would you tell us what a lead flight director is and what some of the roles and responsibilities are?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.204225771898438, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And at that time the recruiter told us that would be okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That you could have a, you could take a child with us. We didn't want to do that. So that's why that went on the back burner. And then my wife later went, got transferred, and I retired before her. She was still working. And I said, oh man, I can't wait till you retire and we can go in the Peace Corps like we always wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she said, why don't you go now? Because who knows if I'll be able to go when I retire. She had some health problems that, as it turned out, probably would have prevented her from going in. So we reflected on her experience of working abroad and how we managed with it. And I applied and was accepted and was assigned to Macedonia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your kids think?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.560250857664931, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That you could have a, you could take a child with us. We didn't want to do that. So that's why that went on the back burner. And then my wife later went, got transferred, and I retired before her. She was still working. And I said, oh man, I can't wait till you retire and we can go in the Peace Corps like we always wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she said, why don't you go now? Because who knows if I'll be able to go when I retire. She had some health problems that, as it turned out, probably would have prevented her from going in. So we reflected on her experience of working abroad and how we managed with it. And I applied and was accepted and was assigned to Macedonia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your kids think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. You know, I can, I can almost hear them. First question was why? Why do you want to do that? So I told them all the reasons and that was fine with them because, again, they had experienced that their mother had been in Europe for a year while they were in graduate school. So that was fine. It was also intriguing to them that that they could visit. And they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like it surprised them a little bit that you would do that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.844723175183256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she said, why don't you go now? Because who knows if I'll be able to go when I retire. She had some health problems that, as it turned out, probably would have prevented her from going in. So we reflected on her experience of working abroad and how we managed with it. And I applied and was accepted and was assigned to Macedonia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did your kids think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. You know, I can, I can almost hear them. First question was why? Why do you want to do that? So I told them all the reasons and that was fine with them because, again, they had experienced that their mother had been in Europe for a year while they were in graduate school. So that was fine. It was also intriguing to them that that they could visit. And they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like it surprised them a little bit that you would do that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it didn't surprise them about volunteering because I was always volunteering. I was on many community organizations and so on. But, but going overseas for, what, 27 months it was, a commitment that surprised them. But then as we, because it took a while, it took me a year and a half from application until I went to pre-service training. And in that time, providing them with a lot of information about the Peace Corps and talking about it a lot. They were very supportive. They were very supportive. And then while I was there, they did come and visit. And that was nice for both us and myself and them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Now, how did you end up in Macedonia, getting assigned to Macedonia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.623115031090439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it didn't surprise them about volunteering because I was always volunteering. I was on many community organizations and so on. But, but going overseas for, what, 27 months it was, a commitment that surprised them. But then as we, because it took a while, it took me a year and a half from application until I went to pre-service training. And in that time, providing them with a lot of information about the Peace Corps and talking about it a lot. They were very supportive. They were very supportive. And then while I was there, they did come and visit. And that was nice for both us and myself and them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. Now, how did you end up in Macedonia, getting assigned to Macedonia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at that time you had to just say, I will go and serve wherever I'm assigned. And I said that. And a recruiter, I had a phone interview with a recruiter as well as a video interview on the internet. I guess that's the placement officer, not the recruiter, called and had questions for me and where did I want to go? And I said I'm sticking with what I said, except I have concern about going someplace cold, really cold. And I had in my mind Mongolia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn't too sure I wanted to be that cold. And he, of course, grilled me about, I thought you said you would go wherever assigned by, da da da. And I said, okay, I understand, and I will. And then he assigned me to Macedonia. And I immediately started reading about Macedonia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to say, what was your reaction when you got the news where you were going?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.009759987778377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know much about Macedonia. I knew where it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I started reading and I read history and read Yugoslavian history and war history, and I read some books by Macedonians and I read some book, I read a book by a Roma woman who wrote a wonderful book. She was, she was a brilliant person who wrote a very good book about the Roma culture, but also about the Balkans and the conflict of cultures. And that was helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, and I, and I also got, I purchased online some self-study books for Macedonian language and started studying that. Made a lot of errors that had to be corrected when I went to Peace Corps, especially pronouncing the alphabet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh, uh huh."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.500356636184328, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I did that. And I couldn't find anybody local who had any experience, recent experience in the Peace Corps, and especially nothing related to Macedonia. But I did go online and I found, uh, a volunteer who was serving at the time, but going toward COS, his close of service. That was Michael, who we mentioned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I found a currently serving volunteer and we communicated a lot. And he scared me a lot with things like wait till you, if you've been studying the language, wait till you see script. That was a fellow named Link."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he had a good sense of humor, though. And he, he helped me with some information. And then I also wrote to a woman who I believe was serving in Macedonia at the time. She was in the same cohort with Link. She was the retired dean of students in New Hampshire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. I know her."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.000396262427032, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I found a currently serving volunteer and we communicated a lot. And he scared me a lot with things like wait till you, if you've been studying the language, wait till you see script. That was a fellow named Link."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he had a good sense of humor, though. And he, he helped me with some information. And then I also wrote to a woman who I believe was serving in Macedonia at the time. She was in the same cohort with Link. She was the retired dean of students in New Hampshire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. I know her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dr. Wiggum. She was, she was helpful with correspondence at the time. Very, very supportive, very encouraging. And I followed through with everything and eventually got assigned to a cohort to start in September of 2011, which I mentioned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your training like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.725471430369561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And after we ate in, in the Old City Tavern, which was where the founding fathers used to hang out, they were not interested in any of that. I tried to point out we're standing in a room where they had those discussions about independence and how to, how to deal with England and all that. They didn't want any of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we ate and then they immediately went out and found a bar to have drinks at. And I went back to the hotel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was sort of, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't feel very connected with the other volunteers at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.028301589299511, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we ate and then they immediately went out and found a bar to have drinks at. And I went back to the hotel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was sort of, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't feel very connected with the other volunteers at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was foretelling of my whole experience, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How old were you when you went into Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.516421715184583, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was foretelling of my whole experience, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How old were you when you went into Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "67. I turned 68 during pre-service training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So from there, of course, we went and had our orientation in, um, Kumanovo and a week in the hotel there. And much of the same type of thing going on. The training provided by the Peace Corps I thought was pretty good at that point. The initial orientation and the, of course, the first. That orientation week was the policies, procedures, and all that sort of stuff. And it was pretty good. And I thought the country director did a pretty good job of trying to get us to seriously focus on things, starting with how it took too long for him to get everyone's phone numbers and so on. He did it in a nice way. He was very supportive and encouraging.\n\nUm, when we went to our training sites, um, I was with two of the middle aged volunteers and two or three of the younger volunteers, and we all got along very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you train? What was the training situation like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.573801905760646, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "67. I turned 68 during pre-service training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So from there, of course, we went and had our orientation in, um, Kumanovo and a week in the hotel there. And much of the same type of thing going on. The training provided by the Peace Corps I thought was pretty good at that point. The initial orientation and the, of course, the first. That orientation week was the policies, procedures, and all that sort of stuff. And it was pretty good. And I thought the country director did a pretty good job of trying to get us to seriously focus on things, starting with how it took too long for him to get everyone's phone numbers and so on. He did it in a nice way. He was very supportive and encouraging.\n\nUm, when we went to our training sites, um, I was with two of the middle aged volunteers and two or three of the younger volunteers, and we all got along very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you train? What was the training situation like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was primarily for cultural, um, inculcation, I guess you'd call it, inculcation. Um, yeah, it was, it was half day of cultural learning and a half day of language studies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did they, did everybody go to the same place for training? How was your?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.584940624395859, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was primarily for cultural, um, inculcation, I guess you'd call it, inculcation. Um, yeah, it was, it was half day of cultural learning and a half day of language studies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did they, did everybody go to the same place for training? How was your?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time, the whole cohort was divided up into I think there were three training sites. And I was in Kratovo. Uh, the, the bulk of the younger ones were in another community I forget the name of. And then it was, I think, one other community they were in. We were not, we didn't interact with each other too much. I think there were two times when everyone came together for large meetings with the country director or with the training host country nationals in the Peace Corps. In my village where I was with the other volunteers, we all got along very well and it did well.\n\nMy experience as an older volunteer was different because my ability to learn was different than their ability to learn. I'm a visual learner and they weren't. They could deal with it auditorily and I just had. I even met separately with my language instructor, who was a Macedonian, and she was fine. She was wonderful. But I met separately with her several times to encourage her to use the, the easels or the blackboard or whatever. If I could see things more, see the language, see the words, see the letters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, she tried to adapt, but I think she was locked into a protocol of her own that the Peace Corps pretty much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the language was not easy for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.761045138217622, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time, the whole cohort was divided up into I think there were three training sites. And I was in Kratovo. Uh, the, the bulk of the younger ones were in another community I forget the name of. And then it was, I think, one other community they were in. We were not, we didn't interact with each other too much. I think there were two times when everyone came together for large meetings with the country director or with the training host country nationals in the Peace Corps. In my village where I was with the other volunteers, we all got along very well and it did well.\n\nMy experience as an older volunteer was different because my ability to learn was different than their ability to learn. I'm a visual learner and they weren't. They could deal with it auditorily and I just had. I even met separately with my language instructor, who was a Macedonian, and she was fine. She was wonderful. But I met separately with her several times to encourage her to use the, the easels or the blackboard or whatever. If I could see things more, see the language, see the words, see the letters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, she tried to adapt, but I think she was locked into a protocol of her own that the Peace Corps pretty much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the language was not easy for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Despite your pre-study and everything."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.432124402136566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They told us all the holidays, but I had no idea when they fell in the year. Or maybe I just missed it. You know, it could have been. They could have said it and I missed it. Um. That I recommended to them when they asked for recommendations. Um. And they did help somewhat. But my language tutor that I had during my initial part of my work assignment was wonderful. He, he. He included me into their family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I went to birthday parties and I went to religious events and so on, like so many other volunteers did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But he coached me a lot. Like when holiday time, what to say, how to respond to things, and all of that. And that endeared me to some of the local people very nicely, so that when they saw me on the street then they were typically Macedonian, you know, very accepting and warm and so on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice. So what was your living situation in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.591249335707294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I went to birthday parties and I went to religious events and so on, like so many other volunteers did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But he coached me a lot. Like when holiday time, what to say, how to respond to things, and all of that. And that endeared me to some of the local people very nicely, so that when they saw me on the street then they were typically Macedonian, you know, very accepting and warm and so on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice. So what was your living situation in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In training? It was a challenge. Um. I have a picture. The house I lived in, the family, they were a very nice family. They had an adolescent and a young adult daughter. The young adult daughter had recently finished university and was living in the capital city. I was in Kratovo, a small town up in the mountains, and their adolescent daughter was there. They gave me her bedroom, or the two girls had lived in the bedroom together, and that was awkward for me because I felt not right taking their daughter's bedroom. But they assured me that because the only source of heat in the house was the wood burning stove in the kitchen, they assured me that the daughter would prefer to sleep on the couch that was in the kitchen.\n\nAnd, and subsequently, because of that, my bedroom was quite cold. I slept with a sweat suit on and a jacket and heavy socks and a blanket and a quilt and I was still cold. The Peace Corps gave me an electric heater, which I tried to use very little because that would affect the electric bill of the family. So I only used it when I was, uh, after I would bathe and getting dressed. You know, at special times, I didn't have it on all the time. So it was, it was cold in the winter. And winter came early up in the mountains and, uh. I guess, I guess I was, it was compensated for by the how nice the family was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice. How did you feel at the end of training? You're about to leave and you're about to go out to your site. What, what were your feelings at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.677982627856371, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was really eager to find out where I was going to be working. And the Peace Corps arranged for pre-placement visits to go. But at the same time, leaving the family was, uh, a bit of a challenge because I'd come to depend on them and they were very supportive and helpful. So there I was again, as when I left the United States and went to the country, I was having the same sort of feelings. Okay, wow. Now I have to go do something totally strange again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, now you're on your own again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I tried to do, I tried to take it in the sense of adventure, with independence. Instead of taking a long bus ride to get, as I was told about, I found out from locals how to take the train. And not from Kratovo, but from the, from the capital. I took the bus to the capital and I found a train. And got pretty frightened on the train."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How come?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very nice train, probably World War II era Soviet built train. And it was okay riding on it, but I had no clue where to get off. And I was constantly, every, every stop. And it stopped at every little town. But every stop I would really try to see a sign of where we were. And of course, it didn't matter if I saw a sign with a town name, I could pronounce it, but I had no clue what that meant, and I didn't know whether that was ten stops or 15 stops from where I was going. So I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody else was going to the same assignment as you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.664176083773297, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very nice train, probably World War II era Soviet built train. And it was okay riding on it, but I had no clue where to get off. And I was constantly, every, every stop. And it stopped at every little town. But every stop I would really try to see a sign of where we were. And of course, it didn't matter if I saw a sign with a town name, I could pronounce it, but I had no clue what that meant, and I didn't know whether that was ten stops or 15 stops from where I was going. So I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody else was going to the same assignment as you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I was the only one assigned there. And in the pre-service training, they tried to tell us a little bit about our, our assignment. So that brought up a whole nother scare. When everyone was given their assignments, we were amassed at the [inaudible], the city hall, and going in one at a time into a, into a room to meet with one of the Peace Corps staff, Macedonian staff in the Peace Corps. And given the assignment packets, which would be all the information about our assignment and location and counterparts and all of that. When I went in, I was given an excuse and an apology that they didn't have an assignment for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had that wide eyed look too, of what does this mean? And they said, well, they had planned for me to be in eastern Macedonia in a bicultural training with Albanian language and Macedonian language. And I had told them that I was having enough trouble with Macedonian. I doubted that I could really get through even with struggle that, and I didn't want to do it. So I would have been assigned, I found out later, to the Red Cross over in eastern Macedonia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, over in Ohrid."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.8499246987320985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that worked out good. And he was very familiar with Negotino because he was a woodworker and he sold his, some of his things in Negotino in the, in the bazaar. So then they took me down there and took me to my, my apartment, where it was. Only to find out that my apartment would not be my apartment because the volunteer previous to me did not want to leave right away. Tracy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She just needed to stay another week or month. She just wasn't ready to go. Didn't have a real extension of a six month or a year. But so my landlady and her husband arranged for their parents. I think my landlady's parents took me into their house and gave me a bedroom. And it was very cold. And now it's December."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's really cold. They were very nice. Um, they, they provided me with my meals and, uh, had me sit in the warm room where their wood burning stove was at other times when I wasn't in the bedroom. And I got to watch a lot of Turkish soap operas and they, they loved them. And I had a real difficult time sitting there. But they were so nice. They were a lovely, lovely old family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, you were a community development volunteer. What did you do as a community development volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.864629268414864, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had degrees in defectology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were, they were experts in defectives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we had to talk about caseworkers and social workers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Different ways of thinking about stuff."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.943193519912919, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I developed some in-service trainings with them to understand causes of behavior and ways to ways to redirect behavior and to stop trying to eliminate behavior, but replace behaviors because all behaviors served a purpose and so on. And that was all new to them, even though they had degrees in defectology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they, they, they slowly, over the two years I was there, it came about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It came about. My primary goal, my primary project that I worked on to help with, to help maintain or achieve the goals of the organization, was to introduce sporting activities and get these people active. They, they spent, they spent their evenings and weekends in their group homes sitting and listening to music or watching TV. Very little interaction. Some of them would help the staff with meal preparation and so on, and they did have their assigned duties for cleaning the house and doing, learning to do their laundry and so on. But otherwise, in their, in their free time, they, they were sedentary.\n\nThey became sedentary in the, in the offices of the organization, which was called a daily center. And they always corrected me when I called it the day center, which I was used to. They were very sedentary. They would just do coloring, little arts and crafts projects. Um, so I decided that they needed to have more activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your biggest challenge in effecting this change?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.216805370848967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right from the beginning, the name calling stopped."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was proud of that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I bet you were."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.44050045783823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I was proud of that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I bet you were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, and, that, that young man from Macedonia who helped with the sports, he continued the sporting things. He worked elsewhere, but he continued coming and helping with the sports after I closed my service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we've, we've stayed in touch. I've stayed in touch a little with my counterpart. And through Facebook, the internet. We get a lot of exchanges with other staff there. But that young man is now employed by, uh, the NGO."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The NGO? Good."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.267222730931366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, and, that, that young man from Macedonia who helped with the sports, he continued the sporting things. He worked elsewhere, but he continued coming and helping with the sports after I closed my service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we've, we've stayed in touch. I've stayed in touch a little with my counterpart. And through Facebook, the internet. We get a lot of exchanges with other staff there. But that young man is now employed by, uh, the NGO."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The NGO? Good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He now works in one of the group homes and does, still does stuff there. So that was, I was happy with that, with that part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your daily life like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.47610702086081, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, quite a bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not. I started out traveling within Macedonia just to go visit some other volunteers. But it wasn't that enjoyable because they wanted, the younger volunteers just wanted to drink and sit at a, at a bar or something. So I traveled on my own a bit to see like the fortress and the Roman ruins. And so who helped me an awful lot was my language tutor. The Peace Corps arranged for me to have a tutor for a bit. They had a limit on it. Um, we became such good friends that he continued to be friends with me, even though I couldn't pay him to be my tutor anymore. And we would often meet after my work.\n\nUm, he wasn't. He was working part time at the time. He had a master's degree, but he couldn't work as an English teacher because he couldn't, he wouldn't. He refused to join a political party, so they essentially fired him when it came election time. Um, but so I paid him gas money when he took me places and he took me to a lot of nice places."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and we talked and, and I learned more cultural than language wise from him because his English was perfect. He spoke with a decided British accent, although it turned out he could talk with any accent. He could imitate different American accents. He was pretty sharp that way. His father ran a very large wine making business on his side. He, as so many people there did, they had his own still. He had his own vineyards. He had a couple of vineyards, but he made so much wine. He sold some years more than 1,000 liters. And it was all black market. And he was the retired chief of police."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.3532185442726, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and we talked and, and I learned more cultural than language wise from him because his English was perfect. He spoke with a decided British accent, although it turned out he could talk with any accent. He could imitate different American accents. He was pretty sharp that way. His father ran a very large wine making business on his side. He, as so many people there did, they had his own still. He had his own vineyards. He had a couple of vineyards, but he made so much wine. He sold some years more than 1,000 liters. And it was all black market. And he was the retired chief of police."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But what a wonderful family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very nice family. They invited me over for many meals. Very, very, uh, cohesive family and warm family. My tutor now lives in Oman in the Middle East and teaches English at a private school there. Um. And in our community, we're still in communication. We stayed in touch. He has two daughters who are in elementary school, maybe getting ready for middle school. And we talk about when they get to high school, maybe, maybe they could come over as an exchange student."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, that'd be great."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 18.170242826969556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But what a wonderful family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very nice family. They invited me over for many meals. Very, very, uh, cohesive family and warm family. My tutor now lives in Oman in the Middle East and teaches English at a private school there. Um. And in our community, we're still in communication. We stayed in touch. He has two daughters who are in elementary school, maybe getting ready for middle school. And we talk about when they get to high school, maybe, maybe they could come over as an exchange student."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, that'd be great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I made a lot of good things. About traveling. Beyond that, traveling in Macedonia, I traveled a lot in Europe. And, uh, it was expensive airline ways, airline wise for my wife to come and visit me in Macedonia. So we met in different places. You know, we met in Dubrovnik, we met in Tel Aviv. We met in Germany. At one time, she had a business flight to Germany because years ago she had been sent there to work for a year. They sent her back for some more. She worked for an international pharmaceutical company, pharmaceutical research, not manufacturing. She was in safety. So they sent her back over. And then I went up and met her there. And we, we traveled a bit on my vacation time. Um, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's one way you kept in touch."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.30026980774395, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very nice family. They invited me over for many meals. Very, very, uh, cohesive family and warm family. My tutor now lives in Oman in the Middle East and teaches English at a private school there. Um. And in our community, we're still in communication. We stayed in touch. He has two daughters who are in elementary school, maybe getting ready for middle school. And we talk about when they get to high school, maybe, maybe they could come over as an exchange student."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, that'd be great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I made a lot of good things. About traveling. Beyond that, traveling in Macedonia, I traveled a lot in Europe. And, uh, it was expensive airline ways, airline wise for my wife to come and visit me in Macedonia. So we met in different places. You know, we met in Dubrovnik, we met in Tel Aviv. We met in Germany. At one time, she had a business flight to Germany because years ago she had been sent there to work for a year. They sent her back for some more. She worked for an international pharmaceutical company, pharmaceutical research, not manufacturing. She was in safety. So they sent her back over. And then I went up and met her there. And we, we traveled a bit on my vacation time. Um, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's one way you kept in touch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the places were revisited from when she had been in Germany. And I had, um, in my younger years spent six months on a farm in the south of France. Um, well, my younger years when I was in graduate school. And from there I had traveled a lot. So we went. We tried to find new places that neither of us had traveled to, like Normandy. We went to to see that. And Israel, that was, that was a good. And Turkey. Although Turkey we couldn't get to. I wanted to go to Cappadocia, but it was when there was some sort of uprising going on, some things where the State Department said, the Peace Corps said we couldn't go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, that's too bad."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.444744230826611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So I made a lot of good things. About traveling. Beyond that, traveling in Macedonia, I traveled a lot in Europe. And, uh, it was expensive airline ways, airline wise for my wife to come and visit me in Macedonia. So we met in different places. You know, we met in Dubrovnik, we met in Tel Aviv. We met in Germany. At one time, she had a business flight to Germany because years ago she had been sent there to work for a year. They sent her back for some more. She worked for an international pharmaceutical company, pharmaceutical research, not manufacturing. She was in safety. So they sent her back over. And then I went up and met her there. And we, we traveled a bit on my vacation time. Um, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that's one way you kept in touch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the places were revisited from when she had been in Germany. And I had, um, in my younger years spent six months on a farm in the south of France. Um, well, my younger years when I was in graduate school. And from there I had traveled a lot. So we went. We tried to find new places that neither of us had traveled to, like Normandy. We went to to see that. And Israel, that was, that was a good. And Turkey. Although Turkey we couldn't get to. I wanted to go to Cappadocia, but it was when there was some sort of uprising going on, some things where the State Department said, the Peace Corps said we couldn't go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, that's too bad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, at one point we were going to meet in Istanbul and the country director said I couldn't go because of something that had just happened. It was some, um, gang fighting in Istanbul and couldn't go. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a shame."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 13.018202754106927, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, at one point we were going to meet in Istanbul and the country director said I couldn't go because of something that had just happened. It was some, um, gang fighting in Istanbul and couldn't go. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a shame."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't go in defiance. I worked out a deal with him. I said, I'm just going to go to the airport and I'm just going to go see the Blue Mosque. And I'm not going over to that part of Istanbul where the troubles are. And he agreed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, nice. Good."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.429879943341885, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't go in defiance. I worked out a deal with him. I said, I'm just going to go to the airport and I'm just going to go see the Blue Mosque. And I'm not going over to that part of Istanbul where the troubles are. And he agreed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, nice. Good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we did that. The same thing with when we went to Israel. The Peace Corps had a pause on any anyone, could not go to Jordan because of the fighting that was going on, could not go to Israel because of problems with the fighting at the West Bank. So I assured him that I was not going to go anywhere near there. And he agreed that I could go if I checked in every day with where I was. Some days I forgot. I was, it was okay. We didn't go anywhere near that and I was okay and it was okay with him. So we did travel around. I got to go to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea and Masada."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That sort of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But what was communication like for you in Macedonia? How did you talk to your kids? How did you communicate?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.255422159268761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we did that. The same thing with when we went to Israel. The Peace Corps had a pause on any anyone, could not go to Jordan because of the fighting that was going on, could not go to Israel because of problems with the fighting at the West Bank. So I assured him that I was not going to go anywhere near there. And he agreed that I could go if I checked in every day with where I was. Some days I forgot. I was, it was okay. We didn't go anywhere near that and I was okay and it was okay with him. So we did travel around. I got to go to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea and Masada."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That sort of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But what was communication like for you in Macedonia? How did you talk to your kids? How did you communicate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Local?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, both locally and back home."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.553296047460103, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By the end of the day, my tutor was so happy. He said as they were leaving they were saying to each other, that old American could really work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was hard work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was hard work. But I was happy I did it for that reason. I was happy also I did it because while we were working, we had some interchanges and so on. And people would offer me some food or offer me water and they were considerate and I think more so because of my age than just their general, general nicety that they have. They're very nice people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel when it approached time to leave?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.281440052733448, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was hard work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was hard work. But I was happy I did it for that reason. I was happy also I did it because while we were working, we had some interchanges and so on. And people would offer me some food or offer me water and they were considerate and I think more so because of my age than just their general, general nicety that they have. They're very nice people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel when it approached time to leave?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was eager to get home. But sad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.090488947481608, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was hard work. But I was happy I did it for that reason. I was happy also I did it because while we were working, we had some interchanges and so on. And people would offer me some food or offer me water and they were considerate and I think more so because of my age than just their general, general nicety that they have. They're very nice people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel when it approached time to leave?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was eager to get home. But sad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after being gone for 27 months, was it strange coming home?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.096614765251651, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You try to tell them. The better friends and the better family members would listen, but a lot of them was just sort of changed the subject."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Okay. That's nice. What about, you know, the football game this weekend, that sort of stuff. But, and, uh, I was, I was aware of the differences culturally in terms of shopping. You know, I did, I grew up in an agricultural area, so I was familiar with farmers markets and so on. And that was not a whole lot different over there. But that's all it was. When I, when I got home, I remembered that supermarkets were big, but it hit me and it still hits me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the one thing that has lasted with me is the driving. Not being able to drive in the Peace Corps was one thing, but when I did get to ride with other drivers, they drove sensibly. The ones I rode with, they drove sensibly within the speed limit, courteous to other people, letting other people pull out of driveways, or stopping if there were animals in the road or whatever. And over here, everyone's aggressive. And when I, when I came home, that really hit me. That really hit me. And I was disoriented even in my own community. I remembered where things were, but I forgot how to get there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.99623862805739, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Okay. That's nice. What about, you know, the football game this weekend, that sort of stuff. But, and, uh, I was, I was aware of the differences culturally in terms of shopping. You know, I did, I grew up in an agricultural area, so I was familiar with farmers markets and so on. And that was not a whole lot different over there. But that's all it was. When I, when I got home, I remembered that supermarkets were big, but it hit me and it still hits me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the one thing that has lasted with me is the driving. Not being able to drive in the Peace Corps was one thing, but when I did get to ride with other drivers, they drove sensibly. The ones I rode with, they drove sensibly within the speed limit, courteous to other people, letting other people pull out of driveways, or stopping if there were animals in the road or whatever. And over here, everyone's aggressive. And when I, when I came home, that really hit me. That really hit me. And I was disoriented even in my own community. I remembered where things were, but I forgot how to get there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um. But even to this day now, I returned home in the end of November of 2013, so that was six years ago now. Will be six years ago. Um, I still drive more sensibly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. How did Peace Corps change your life?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.106467442046158, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um. But even to this day now, I returned home in the end of November of 2013, so that was six years ago now. Will be six years ago. Um, I still drive more sensibly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm. How did Peace Corps change your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In many ways, one is realizing that governments are corrupt everywhere. And I'm not, I'm not necessarily pointing a finger at Macedonian government, but everywhere I went and talked with people within the, while I was in the Peace Corps, and in Israel. And hearing the news differently, you know, it made me, uh, what is it? More distant, less caring about some of the craziness that goes on in this country. Um, I'm still concerned about everything that goes on, but in a, in a more objective way.\n\nUm, uh, politically, I'm definitely independent. I'm concerned about how schools are run now. I wasn't concerned before because I was distant from them. I was actively involved in the schools when my children were small, but we were in a good school district. You know, um, I was very actively involved. And my children were in classes, when they graduated from high school their class size was over 600. But, but the teachers and the principals knew my name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I was at meetings at my, my children's school where there were only like six other parents in a class size of 600. You know, that's, that was sad for me. So locally now I try to encourage parents to be more involved. Um, and maybe it got me more community minded, being in the Peace Corps, and more grassroots community minded. I even say to people, you can be involved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. How long were you home before you volunteered to do a Response job?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.229408268940176, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In many ways, one is realizing that governments are corrupt everywhere. And I'm not, I'm not necessarily pointing a finger at Macedonian government, but everywhere I went and talked with people within the, while I was in the Peace Corps, and in Israel. And hearing the news differently, you know, it made me, uh, what is it? More distant, less caring about some of the craziness that goes on in this country. Um, I'm still concerned about everything that goes on, but in a, in a more objective way.\n\nUm, uh, politically, I'm definitely independent. I'm concerned about how schools are run now. I wasn't concerned before because I was distant from them. I was actively involved in the schools when my children were small, but we were in a good school district. You know, um, I was very actively involved. And my children were in classes, when they graduated from high school their class size was over 600. But, but the teachers and the principals knew my name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I was at meetings at my, my children's school where there were only like six other parents in a class size of 600. You know, that's, that was sad for me. So locally now I try to encourage parents to be more involved. Um, and maybe it got me more community minded, being in the Peace Corps, and more grassroots community minded. I even say to people, you can be involved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. How long were you home before you volunteered to do a Response job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was home no more than about three months before I started looking on the internet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And why? What, what got you thinking I want to go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.517787986345896, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was home no more than about three months before I started looking on the internet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And why? What, what got you thinking I want to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I was staying involved in the internet to see what was happening with the cohort that I had been with and so on and exchanging a lot of things. But no, when I came back to resume retirement, I realized that I really didn't want to do nothing. I wanted to be active. And I was a volunteer at the local library and a volunteer at the YMCA and trying to do things in my neighborhood and so on. But it just, it just wasn't enough. I felt a little empty about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so the Response program of the, of the Peace Corps, I saw things about it and I was intrigued by it. I didn't want to serve another 27 months particularly, and my kids and my wife at that point were opposed to it. They were, they were very supportive of the fact that I did go in the Peace Corps, but it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Enough's enough, Dad."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.575319984828774, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, I was staying involved in the internet to see what was happening with the cohort that I had been with and so on and exchanging a lot of things. But no, when I came back to resume retirement, I realized that I really didn't want to do nothing. I wanted to be active. And I was a volunteer at the local library and a volunteer at the YMCA and trying to do things in my neighborhood and so on. But it just, it just wasn't enough. I felt a little empty about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so the Response program of the, of the Peace Corps, I saw things about it and I was intrigued by it. I didn't want to serve another 27 months particularly, and my kids and my wife at that point were opposed to it. They were, they were very supportive of the fact that I did go in the Peace Corps, but it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Enough's enough, Dad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, exactly. Enough is enough. It's time for you to stay here with family. But I saw the Response programs had shorter assignments. Three, six, nine, 12 months. I don't think they have any more than 12. So I was looking at some of them, and I was intrigued that they were specific to people who had relevant career experience and even higher level of education. And so that was intriguing me. And then I saw one that sounded very interesting to me. It was in the eastern Caribbean sector, which made it a whole lot more acceptable to the family. That would be not that far away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, easier to get to."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.272043874936587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was in Saint Lucia on top of it, which everyone has the idea that that's a vacation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Paradise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Paradise. But what I was really intrigued with, it was working with youth, which had been my whole career. And. And something really meaningful was to help reduce the suicide rate among teenagers. Unbelievably, for most people in Saint Lucia, they were having a spike in suicides among 12, 13, 14 year olds, particularly girls. And why would teenagers in an island paradise be committing suicide? Well, it turns out that their culture couldn't handle the internet. Cyberbullying was really big there. It's a problem in this country, but it's really a problem there. And they have no supports, no emotional supports to deal with it.\n\nAnd that goes partly in the understanding that that corporal punishment was rampant there. Parents hit kids, teachers hit kids. So they, the children had no support. And the Ministry of Health tried to start a program, wanted to, wanted to start a program to try to teach resiliency among the kids. And that's what they put a call out for, was a Response volunteer to come and help build a program to teach adolescents resiliency. That was me. I applied and got accepted right away. So I went there.\n\nNow, from that point on, there's a big, big contrast with my previous Peace Corps experience. I had no, um, no staging."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went straight there. I had no orientation program with the other, other volunteers because they had already completed their orientation and they were at their work sites. The ones who were there. So I was lucky that there was one more Response volunteer who went at the same time as I went. And I met her on the airplane. Um, we were, I found out we were supposed to be seated beside each other, but when I got on the airplane, I realized these vacationers weren't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Weren't going to Peace Corps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.872488168637293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They weren't a Peace Corps volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and, uh, but I saw a person across the aisle at a window seat on the other side who seemed to fit the description that I was given about the Response volunteer that I would be going with. And I just called to her, excuse me, is your name? And she said, you know, how do you know my name? And I told her who I was. And we had had an exchange of emails."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we, our, we had three days of orientation together, real compressed orientation in the Peace Corps office in a conference room, sitting just at a table with all the people who had to come and tell us all the policies and procedures real fast. And we had four hours of language training in Creole, which just was, they might as well not have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, four hours."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.13685134680276, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's almost like someone from New Hampshire trying to understand someone from Alabama."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In English. So anyway, we had that compressed orientation and then we were assigned to opposite ends of the island."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we would see each other occasionally, especially if I came to the Peace Corps office. She was in the capital city where the Peace Corps office was, in Castries, and we'd have lunch together and share our stories and our miseries. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.929834829780845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In English. So anyway, we had that compressed orientation and then we were assigned to opposite ends of the island."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we would see each other occasionally, especially if I came to the Peace Corps office. She was in the capital city where the Peace Corps office was, in Castries, and we'd have lunch together and share our stories and our miseries. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there a year. Yeah. No, not quite a year. Nine months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have a counterpart there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.588705366423163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we would see each other occasionally, especially if I came to the Peace Corps office. She was in the capital city where the Peace Corps office was, in Castries, and we'd have lunch together and share our stories and our miseries. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was there a year. Yeah. No, not quite a year. Nine months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you have a counterpart there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a supervisor because I was working for the Ministry of Health, and my supervisor was the head nurse of the local hospital who had the whole, the whole health network of, of the island under her. And I was told when I arrived by her that I would address her as a Nurse Siraj. No first name. So I said, will you call me Dr. Hemmer? And she said, I'll call you Lew. Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm the boss and I want you to know it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.470210892277336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a really rigid hierarchy in their government there, which adds to my thoughts now on governments and so on. And, and I'll tell you another thing later. But, uh, she pretty much gave me the guidelines of what she expected and I was on my own to do it. So while I was there, I wrote a training manual for each department of health in each parish of the county. The country was 27 miles long, 14 miles wide. So governmentally, because of the history of its development from colonial days and all, they, they had, it was divided into parishes. Catholicism was the ruling religion. And the government followed the parish lines for everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It had in its, that country in its history had been a colony. When it was a colony of the Europeans, it had exchanged hands between the French and the British 14 times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a pawn in every treaty negotiation that this country's had. Yeah, we'll agree to this and you give us Saint Lucia. Or if you agree to this, I want Saint Lucia. Because at one point that was a major source of bananas until the global economy caught on and you had fruit and Chiquita bananas found out that they could grow and ship bananas cheaper from Central America because the labor was cheaper, and that decimated the banana. Well, first it started with sugar cane. Back in the slave trading days, sugar cane was the major crop there and the major economy. But some bright American discovered beet sugar was cheaper. So sugar cane bottomed out. Then they went to bananas. And then that's what I just said.\n\nThey lost their economy to Central America, except it was supported through a treaty with the United Kingdom because they felt some responsibility to their former colony until the large companies made such amazing, cheap offers to the United Kingdom to break the treaty. And they broke the treaty and then the economy collapsed and that happened there. So everyone was poor except investors in, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what, you wrote the protocol, did you work directly with the youth or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.1059134324792, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Somewhat. I got it, I got it started. But what I wrote for the protocol was to be implemented in each parish by a group of presenters. I wrote a series of training meetings for the youth, 21 of them as a matter of fact, covering everything from personal hygiene to, to, you know, sexually transmitted diseases and, oh, civic responsibility, to instill, to instill resiliency in the children. It had to be built on self confidence and to instill the self confidence, we gave them a lot of training that they just weren't getting from families and from schools.\n\nAnd in order to do that training, I said that somebody in the community, in each community, should address each aspect of the training. So obviously for things like sexually transmitted diseases, we had a physician or a nurse, depending on each parish, who they chose. For civic responsibility. I met with the police people and we chose a policeman to do a presentation. But I, but I wrote an outline for every session, what they should cover. And, and we had icebreakers to start the session, the content of the session, and wrap ups at the end. So and I wrote all those out so that they wouldn't be intimidated and feel that it was too much for them to do, that they were easy and fun things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They bought into it that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your life like there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there was one other couple, a young couple, American couple, who were volunteers, and they, they were lovely. We didn't spend a lot of time together because of the age difference. They were straight out of college. But they invited, they had been there earlier than me because they had their orientation and everything. They were six months ahead of me, I guess. So they introduced me to a lot of local people. And we sometimes did things together. They helped orient me a whole lot. I had no orientation to my community."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have your own apartment?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.99576602534869, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had an apartment that was the size of your living room. It was everything except it had a door for the toilet. But my stove and my refrigerator were on, my stove was on one bare wall. It was all concrete."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my refrigerator was on another wall. And I had, um, I had a table that was about two feet in diameter that I could sit at and a half- sized couch and that was it. And a bed. My landlord, it was, it was in the basement of my landlord's house. My landlord worked. He had a government job. He was educated. His wife was a schoolteacher. They had two young children who were, I'd have to guess, eight and ten years old. And they were very nice. And of course, as in most of the Caribbean islands, everyone could speak English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So communication wasn't difficult. They didn't help me much with Creole. They laughed at my Creole and chose not to use Creole with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you cook for yourself and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.995295583720765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my refrigerator was on another wall. And I had, um, I had a table that was about two feet in diameter that I could sit at and a half- sized couch and that was it. And a bed. My landlord, it was, it was in the basement of my landlord's house. My landlord worked. He had a government job. He was educated. His wife was a schoolteacher. They had two young children who were, I'd have to guess, eight and ten years old. And they were very nice. And of course, as in most of the Caribbean islands, everyone could speak English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So communication wasn't difficult. They didn't help me much with Creole. They laughed at my Creole and chose not to use Creole with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you cook for yourself and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, I cooked for myself. I had a, I had a little gas stove and something that had scared me. I finally got used to it, but I was frightened at first. It was a gas stove and the gas canister sat in the room. And in this country that would not be legal. And it scared me occasionally if I smelled gas. But everything went well. And the Peace Corps gave me a nice filter system for water purity. It was a wonderful filter. I'm surprised that in our United States foreign aid, we don't give those filters out to other countries. It was a perfect filter and over the course of several hours could give you a couple gallons of water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your takeaway from that experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.444468122935115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was my feeling, well, this is me. And what it was, was to work with the Ministry of Education in Dominica to, uh, do staff training with teachers, but also community education with parents regarding helping children with autism. That was my job when I retired. When I retired I had, previous to my retirement, I had created an early intervention program throughout the city of Philadelphia where we went into homes and helped the families help the children who were under age three, not yet diagnosed, but likely to be diagnosed with autism, to help them behaviorally so that they could not be too far behind their same age peers when they went to kindergarten."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they recognized autism?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. Oh yes, they over recognized it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I got there, I met my counterpart. I had two counterparts and they were under the Minister of Education. Um, my, my primary counterpart was in charge of special education. I forget what they called it, but it was special education throughout that country. And my secondary counterpart was her assistant. And they did primarily, they, they either coordinate. They did some diagnostics or coordinated with a psychologist, not a psychiatrist, but not a child psychologist either, just a psychologist who I don't think was certified to do autism diagnoses, but did them anyway. They didn't use any of the testing modules that we use here, especially not the gold standard, the ADOS.\n\nBut anyway. Early on when I was there and talked about things we would do, which would be me going around to schools and having meetings with teachers and either during school time with parents or in the evenings with parents. Um. And I, and I laid out some of the modules that I had worked on in my career. I said, well, first, let's start at the very beginning. How many children are we talking about?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's what I was wondering."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.271631247705683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. Oh yes, they over recognized it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I got there, I met my counterpart. I had two counterparts and they were under the Minister of Education. Um, my, my primary counterpart was in charge of special education. I forget what they called it, but it was special education throughout that country. And my secondary counterpart was her assistant. And they did primarily, they, they either coordinate. They did some diagnostics or coordinated with a psychologist, not a psychiatrist, but not a child psychologist either, just a psychologist who I don't think was certified to do autism diagnoses, but did them anyway. They didn't use any of the testing modules that we use here, especially not the gold standard, the ADOS.\n\nBut anyway. Early on when I was there and talked about things we would do, which would be me going around to schools and having meetings with teachers and either during school time with parents or in the evenings with parents. Um. And I, and I laid out some of the modules that I had worked on in my career. I said, well, first, let's start at the very beginning. How many children are we talking about?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's what I was wondering."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In this country, what's the incidence of autism in this country? The population of the whole country was under 80,000."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I was wondering how many kids they had that were."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.989668207044052, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In this country, what's the incidence of autism in this country? The population of the whole country was under 80,000."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I was wondering how many kids they had that were."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was an incredibly spread-out population."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, they had schools with small classes because they were very, what we would say, very rural. They were just hard to get to. It was maybe only five miles, but it would take you two hours, you know, the roads were so bad. Uh, so they told me that they had identified ten children with autism. And I thought, dear me, why would they ask for some specialist to come?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For ten kids."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.863787909930927, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, they had schools with small classes because they were very, what we would say, very rural. They were just hard to get to. It was maybe only five miles, but it would take you two hours, you know, the roads were so bad. Uh, so they told me that they had identified ten children with autism. And I thought, dear me, why would they ask for some specialist to come?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For ten kids."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For ten kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I said, well, let's go see them. Ten kids. I could see ten kids and I can see ten families and I can talk to 30 teachers that are involved with these ten kids. And we started going first to the schools. And I would observe. And I saw characteristics of autism, but not enough to say that that child probably was autistic. There were other behavioral problems and other developmental delays. And we got, we narrowed it down to maybe 2 or 3 of the children were really autistic. And my work became for me very boring. They asked me to go and help administer standardized tests. They asked me to, to go with them in their school meetings with faculty where they talked about everything.\n\nAnd I was the behavioral specialist from the United States who was just coming along to answer questions if the teachers had any. And I was introduced to some special, special needs teachers who were doing wonderful with their classes that were way too many children for the one person to be with, you know. And my biggest recommendation was they need a teacher's aide or they need another teacher. And then I found out that the teachers were what we would call teacher's aides here. So I was thinking, oh, dear me, you know, I've got to watch my step. I'm recommending things that are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are beyond the pale."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.848653233256586, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For ten kids."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I said, well, let's go see them. Ten kids. I could see ten kids and I can see ten families and I can talk to 30 teachers that are involved with these ten kids. And we started going first to the schools. And I would observe. And I saw characteristics of autism, but not enough to say that that child probably was autistic. There were other behavioral problems and other developmental delays. And we got, we narrowed it down to maybe 2 or 3 of the children were really autistic. And my work became for me very boring. They asked me to go and help administer standardized tests. They asked me to, to go with them in their school meetings with faculty where they talked about everything.\n\nAnd I was the behavioral specialist from the United States who was just coming along to answer questions if the teachers had any. And I was introduced to some special, special needs teachers who were doing wonderful with their classes that were way too many children for the one person to be with, you know. And my biggest recommendation was they need a teacher's aide or they need another teacher. And then I found out that the teachers were what we would call teacher's aides here. So I was thinking, oh, dear me, you know, I've got to watch my step. I'm recommending things that are."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are beyond the pale."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beyond what they are wanting to operate as. Um. So anyway, the, what happened was I grew a little tired of that. And fortunately, I had a very good country, well, she wasn't a country director. The country director in the Caribbean is the country director for seven countries. Seven islands. And so she, at the time, she would only get to visit each island every several months. Um. And so on each island they had what I was used to in Macedonia was an assistant director."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Sort of local coordinator."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.158831152168624, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beyond what they are wanting to operate as. Um. So anyway, the, what happened was I grew a little tired of that. And fortunately, I had a very good country, well, she wasn't a country director. The country director in the Caribbean is the country director for seven countries. Seven islands. And so she, at the time, she would only get to visit each island every several months. Um. And so on each island they had what I was used to in Macedonia was an assistant director."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Sort of local coordinator."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And they, and they were not an American Peace Corps volunteer. They were a host country national. And the one that was in Dominica was fine. She was really good. But there was a lot of dissension in the office. The office, I don't know if her title was really office manager or office secretary or whatever. There were the, the supervisor that I reported to, the assistant country director and two other host country nationals that ran the office. One was pretty much what we would in this country consider a secretary, took care of the mass mailings and things like that. The other one coordinated an awful lot of things, your medical files and everything else.\n\nAnd, and it was, and she was very, um, upset with the fact that that's what she was doing because she wanted the director's job and had been passed over for it. The director, I thought, was very capable. But she had to deal with that. She had dissension in the office and it was difficult. It was, it was difficult for all the volunteers in that, in that country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did it affect you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It affected us in that when we asked to have things done or asked for help for things, it was done begrudgingly. It wasn't what I was used to in Macedonia and in Saint Lucia, a very nice, cohesive group who, even if they had some personal issues, you didn't know it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long, how long were you in Dominica?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.929418603699421, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got, rather than a close of service, I got an administrative separation, in case I could get my surgery and come back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got my surgery and I went to rehab. And it took longer than it should have for them. It was fine for me because it was a lot faster than my previous knee surgery. It went very well, but that was the end of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that was going to be my other question was, as an older volunteer, did you have any other health issues during all these years of service?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm trying to think. I had health issues when I was in Macedonia, but they were of doctor's office visit nature. I had, uh, I had some allergy cropping up but managed it with Sudafed. Um, I had a hearing problem in Macedonia. I decided I had a hearing problem that, uh, I just couldn't, in group meetings I could hear, I couldn't understand. And I would sit in the front and that, and I went to, uh, what was our medical doctor? I forget her name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Started with an M."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.0326873374438, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got my surgery and I went to rehab. And it took longer than it should have for them. It was fine for me because it was a lot faster than my previous knee surgery. It went very well, but that was the end of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that was going to be my other question was, as an older volunteer, did you have any other health issues during all these years of service?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm trying to think. I had health issues when I was in Macedonia, but they were of doctor's office visit nature. I had, uh, I had some allergy cropping up but managed it with Sudafed. Um, I had a hearing problem in Macedonia. I decided I had a hearing problem that, uh, I just couldn't, in group meetings I could hear, I couldn't understand. And I would sit in the front and that, and I went to, uh, what was our medical doctor? I forget her name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Started with an M."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I wanted to call her Mimi but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, it's Mimi."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.620601651165185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I wanted to call her Mimi but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, it's Mimi."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mimi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I went to see her. She was lovely I thought. She was very helpful in some other things, very critical things regarding volunteer support network. I was one of the members and I had to go to her confidentially about some other volunteer issues that were, that they brought to me. But anyway, I went there and I described. I said, and this is, I guess I told her the right thing. It tipped her off. I said, I feel like I'm underwater. It sounds whoa whoa whoa. She examined my ears. She said fine, but had me take a stronger dose, stronger or more frequent Sudafed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Clean out all those inner ears."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.1857584401000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If the, if a person was needing overnight hospitalization, they had to go to the capital. It was, there were no overnight hospitals in my area. So it was essentially a clinic. The waiting room for the different exams was outdoors. Beautiful patio at the top of this street drive. I don't know how an ambulance got up there. I really don't. But anyway, and everyone there was nice.\n\nOne day I got to work and the hospital was closed and there were people scrubbing the cement where the waiting area was and the walls. And I said, what the heck is going on? They said, you didn't hear? I said no. There had been a machete fight the night before at there. Some woman had come up there for some reason and two men came and fought over her. Everyone there carried a machete, partly to clear brush along the side of the road and also for their lunch or snack time during the day. Anyone who was thirsty would just climb a tree and get a coconut and whack it open."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Smash it open."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And drink the coconut water. And the coconut water was wonderful. I loved it. Um, but it was a volatile community. And as I said, corporal punishment was rampant. If a parent went to the school and said to the teacher, I can't get the child to do his homework, the teacher would say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Beat him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beat him. And if the teacher said to the parent, they're misbehaving in school, the parent would say, beat them. And they did. And the volunteers who were teachers were having a real big problem with that. Uh, because they just, no, I'm not hitting the children, you know, and they would stop the teachers from hitting them, which got them in sort of a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7290000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hot tub hot because thermal springs were coming up from underground and bubbling. So it was actually called Champagne Beach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But these streams of bubbles were coming up and you could swim and feel the warm rise up. But anyway, the, um, the, the travel was difficult. And this, this woman had a private school that had been created, again, corruption in governments. It was created by a woman who worked for the Ministry of Education and realized that kids weren't getting what they needed, special needs children. So she funneled money from the public education into her private school that she ran. And the woman who ran it was a woman from Connecticut who had been a teacher, I think, in Connecticut, and ended up down there for a variety of other personal reasons. She and her husband ended up there.\n\nBut a white woman and sharp. She knew things. She knew. She's running a good program and doing really well with the kids. And so I shared a lot what I could share with her that she didn't already have. And then I was pretty much done. I mean, that was over a couple of months' period, um, that I went there instead of going. And we worked it out. My assistant country director worked it out with my counterparts that I would be going down there to that school and that was fine with them. I think they were just as happy that I had another assignment because they didn't have enough for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I would stop back and talk with them and let them know what I was doing, but it just didn't really matter much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that wasn't as well developed as a Response job as your other thing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I would stop back and talk with them and let them know what I was doing, but it just didn't really matter much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that wasn't as well developed as a Response job as your other thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that again was a benefit of being older."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew it was time to talk with her and it had to be careful of how I did that. And I didn't complain and all that. I just worked that out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there any last thing you want to say before we wrap this up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00087:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that again was a benefit of being older."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I knew it was time to talk with her and it had to be careful of how I did that. And I didn't complain and all that. I just worked that out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, is there any last thing you want to say before we wrap this up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, overall about the Peace Corps, nothing but good to say. I have concerns. But what organization doesn't? I'm, I am, I am sad that the Peace Corps doesn't help the younger volunteers truly understand the importance of their role, not only in their assigned work, but in their personal time use and the communities. I think what I observed or what I was aware of, there was a lot of negative portrayed about the United States on the part of the students. I mean, there was one volunteer who, because we were told in Macedonia to not associate with the embassy at that time. And I understood it because local people asked me, you have a family back in America? Yes. And you're here alone? Yes. And you're not getting paid? Yes, volunteer. Are you a spy?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Why would you do this?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00174:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 20, "return_to_go": 27.0812, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I am. I’ve given you most of what I could probably give you. But yes, I’m happy to go a little bit longer. Let’s do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have a couple more questions. You talked about Harvey. Are there any other memorable events or moments that took place? It’s probably hard to top Harvey, but were there any things that come to mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "During the final test itself?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the final test, yes, the cryogenic test."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was so significant, it’s really hard to top that. I think that whole five, six days was probably the part that it’s just hard to top.\\n\\n Maybe when we ended the test was memorable. We had a consent to proceed, consent to warm up basically. I think after having been through the hurricane and having that meeting, the amount of optical data that got analyzed and the quality of the data and how well the telescope was working, I think that consent to warm up was very memorable. Just because I think people despite the storm were like, “Wow, this was really successful, this data looks great. You guys are ready to warm up.” I think that was memorable.\\n\\n I don’t even remember if I was actually there the very final day. I might have been there at the end of warm-up, but maybe not when we repressurized, I can’t even remember. I don’t think I was there when we opened the door. That wouldn’t be one that I would remember, Carl would probably remember that better than I would. But yes, I think that’d be the other critical moment that was a huge relief for everybody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned of course the Canadians, the Europeans. This was a multi-Center and an international effort. Would you talk a bit about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00174:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you talked to Carl? Carl Reis, he’d be a very important person to talk to. I think Mark Voyton would be a really good one from Goddard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think he’s on my list."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. Gary [W.] Matthews, who worked for Harris Corporation for a while, and Tom [Thomas R.] Scorse who’s at Harris right now. Those guys probably from the Harris perspective would have a lot of really good input."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you so much for your time today. I know you are busy with everything out there, so I really appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, have a good afternoon."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00174:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s see. Gary [W.] Matthews, who worked for Harris Corporation for a while, and Tom [Thomas R.] Scorse who’s at Harris right now. Those guys probably from the Harris perspective would have a lot of really good input."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you so much for your time today. I know you are busy with everything out there, so I really appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, have a good afternoon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All right. Good luck, thank you very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. All right, bye-bye."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 154.9738293520038, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is important. It’s good that they could do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there often any major changes that hadn’t exactly been anticipated or that affected many different systems?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because we’d have to restart?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And those."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t remember any that caused major changes. We changed out the main engine models that came from Marshall. There were some major changes of those, but they came as a block to us. We just had to integrate them in. They didn’t affect a whole lot of things other than just the vehicle performance, you know. I don’t recall anything that was a major surprise to us or a major redesign of the Shuttle or anything. No, it was just bad from day one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Shuttle is obviously a very different system than had been used before in Gemini, Apollo, very different than Skylab. You had even mentioned that originally you were planning for all these flights per year and trying to figure out, okay, how much could the astronauts be used. How did that transition between all of those programs occur, and then the transition to Shuttle being a little bit less than—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.878655246124001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they couldn’t be in better hands. I mean the Space Station couldn’t. I don’t know what your center director status is. You need to go find a center director. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I think they’re working on that at the moment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess you need an administrator, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. It will be interesting to see what happens with all of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know Roy [S.] Estess very well. He’s a nice fellow, but he, of course, he doesn’t want to be center director at JSC. He wants to retire, I think. He and I went to school together a long time ago. So I expect he’s not going to be a candidate. I don’t know. They need to go find a good fifty-year-old guy. Have you got any of them floating around out there somewhere?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure there’s quite a few out there that have experiences such as yours to build off of, that will—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.53183916236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess you need an administrator, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. It will be interesting to see what happens with all of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know Roy [S.] Estess very well. He’s a nice fellow, but he, of course, he doesn’t want to be center director at JSC. He wants to retire, I think. He and I went to school together a long time ago. So I expect he’s not going to be a candidate. I don’t know. They need to go find a good fifty-year-old guy. Have you got any of them floating around out there somewhere?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure there’s quite a few out there that have experiences such as yours to build off of, that will—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s not as many of them internal to JSC as they need, but they’ll find somebody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know time is just about up. We appreciate the time that you’ve shared with us today and the experiences that you’ve been able to—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.3687101804, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I know Roy [S.] Estess very well. He’s a nice fellow, but he, of course, he doesn’t want to be center director at JSC. He wants to retire, I think. He and I went to school together a long time ago. So I expect he’s not going to be a candidate. I don’t know. They need to go find a good fifty-year-old guy. Have you got any of them floating around out there somewhere?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure there’s quite a few out there that have experiences such as yours to build off of, that will—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s not as many of them internal to JSC as they need, but they’ll find somebody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know time is just about up. We appreciate the time that you’ve shared with us today and the experiences that you’ve been able to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don’t know if that will help you any or not, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s been very useful. There are a couple things, if you might consider coming back at a second time, but maybe after we’ve had a chance to get the transcript done, you can review what you’ve said. But I think there were a couple things I’d like to go back and touch on in a little more detail, but not long."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.187455756, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s not as many of them internal to JSC as they need, but they’ll find somebody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know time is just about up. We appreciate the time that you’ve shared with us today and the experiences that you’ve been able to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don’t know if that will help you any or not, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s been very useful. There are a couple things, if you might consider coming back at a second time, but maybe after we’ve had a chance to get the transcript done, you can review what you’ve said. But I think there were a couple things I’d like to go back and touch on in a little more detail, but not long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Well, you have my office number. We’re over there, just five minutes away. We’re not usually so busy that we can’t break out. One thing I find about working for a Japanese company is, you know, they are very paternalistic companies, but, you know, something like a performance plan or something, that’s unheard of. They don’t do anything like that. I mean you just go do the thing, and that’s it. So they’re very easy to work with, very personable, can’t do enough for you, that sort of thing. Certainly they would never tell you how to schedule your day or something like that. So we have pretty much free rein to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a different environment, having come from NASA and the government background and then—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 16.87495084, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don’t know if that will help you any or not, but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s been very useful. There are a couple things, if you might consider coming back at a second time, but maybe after we’ve had a chance to get the transcript done, you can review what you’ve said. But I think there were a couple things I’d like to go back and touch on in a little more detail, but not long."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Well, you have my office number. We’re over there, just five minutes away. We’re not usually so busy that we can’t break out. One thing I find about working for a Japanese company is, you know, they are very paternalistic companies, but, you know, something like a performance plan or something, that’s unheard of. They don’t do anything like that. I mean you just go do the thing, and that’s it. So they’re very easy to work with, very personable, can’t do enough for you, that sort of thing. Certainly they would never tell you how to schedule your day or something like that. So we have pretty much free rein to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a different environment, having come from NASA and the government background and then—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One of the things which they did last year, which they didn’t have to do, we did a study for Joe [Joseph H.] Rothenburg on basically Space Station operations, but it was for utilization of the Space Station. I don’t know if you know, but the National Research Council did a study on how the utilization should be managed on Space Station. Basically, what they concluded was that you ought to take the whole operation and turn it over to an NGO, a non-government organization. Do you remember this study?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little bit, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.716, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Station is probably going to fly more than the fifteen years, too. Why would they turn it off after ten or twelve years? Because we won’t be able to build a new one by then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This one took long enough."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you don’t have any money. Congress won’t give you the money, so this thing will be like the B-52. Do you know how old the B-52s are?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They started flying that about 1952. Been over fifty years.\\n\\n But, yes, if you need me to come back and answer any questions, I’d be happy to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great, we appreciate that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.24, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you don’t have any money. Congress won’t give you the money, so this thing will be like the B-52. Do you know how old the B-52s are?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They started flying that about 1952. Been over fifty years.\\n\\n But, yes, if you need me to come back and answer any questions, I’d be happy to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great, we appreciate that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anything else I can help you with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Appreciate it. You certainly had some very interesting times."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They started flying that about 1952. Been over fifty years.\\n\\n But, yes, if you need me to come back and answer any questions, I’d be happy to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great, we appreciate that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anything else I can help you with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Appreciate it. You certainly had some very interesting times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some of them were tough. Some of them were tough. We had some dark, dark periods there in the late eighties and early nineties. I mean NASA did. The Station was really in the dumps, and we weren’t sure where Shuttle was there for a couple of years. Things are looking a little better right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tried to learn from those experiences and make the best of them as could be done."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anything else I can help you with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Appreciate it. You certainly had some very interesting times."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some of them were tough. Some of them were tough. We had some dark, dark periods there in the late eighties and early nineties. I mean NASA did. The Station was really in the dumps, and we weren’t sure where Shuttle was there for a couple of years. Things are looking a little better right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tried to learn from those experiences and make the best of them as could be done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the country probably can afford us more so now. We don’t have to fight for it. Well, you do. I mean you’re still imposing the budget constraint on the Station now, and I don’t know, I haven’t talked to anybody over in the Space Station Program Office, but if you have to live with these cuts that leave you with three people, three astronauts, that doesn’t work. So that has to change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s hard."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some of them were tough. Some of them were tough. We had some dark, dark periods there in the late eighties and early nineties. I mean NASA did. The Station was really in the dumps, and we weren’t sure where Shuttle was there for a couple of years. Things are looking a little better right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tried to learn from those experiences and make the best of them as could be done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the country probably can afford us more so now. We don’t have to fight for it. Well, you do. I mean you’re still imposing the budget constraint on the Station now, and I don’t know, I haven’t talked to anybody over in the Space Station Program Office, but if you have to live with these cuts that leave you with three people, three astronauts, that doesn’t work. So that has to change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s hard."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it will. Tommy [Holloway] will at least work toward that. I’m not sure he’s going to be around long enough to make it all happen, but he’s, Tommy’s sixty. He’s got about thirty-five, thirty-six years of service, maybe now. And I know Shirley is ready for him to retire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes that’s a very large consideration."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00542:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the country probably can afford us more so now. We don’t have to fight for it. Well, you do. I mean you’re still imposing the budget constraint on the Station now, and I don’t know, I haven’t talked to anybody over in the Space Station Program Office, but if you have to live with these cuts that leave you with three people, three astronauts, that doesn’t work. So that has to change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that’s hard."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it will. Tommy [Holloway] will at least work toward that. I’m not sure he’s going to be around long enough to make it all happen, but he’s, Tommy’s sixty. He’s got about thirty-five, thirty-six years of service, maybe now. And I know Shirley is ready for him to retire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes that’s a very large consideration."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he’s got grandkids that she likes to be close to. I don’t blame her. You live to work, or you work to live. There’s a difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There is. There is."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 34.882261930771634, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of competence there. It was more so than you would find in most things because you had to be competent in the sense that if you couldn't do that job, somebody had to come in and do it for you because it was mostly real time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back a little bit in your involvement with the Mercury Program, you worked on you said basically every Mercury mission up through about MA-7. So were you then working—I believe it was MR-1 when they—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—did the first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, when it spit out everything at the top."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 40.62077584848453, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had two serious losses here in the last three weeks. We lost the Titan 4 and then we lost the Delta 3. Everybody, even the people that have absolutely nothing to do with the space business, were saddened by it, not by the money that's lost, but by the setback, you know. Everybody is very positive, especially in here, and I'm sure everywhere, but this man across the street, he had his nephew's son or something over to watch the Delta 3, and he came out of the house about the same time I came out and neither one of us knew it had blown up. He was telling me how happy the kid was to see a launch. And then the next day we got together and, gee, he was just way down. What is this going to do, what's it going to do?\\n\\n But just living in the area, there's that kind of aura. Well, it's the same way around Houston, I mean, you go down around the space center and those people are still so gung-ho. \"Let's get another one going and let's get the Spacelab working.\"\\n\\n How long you say you've been down there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Houston? I've been down there now for just a little over a year. I arrived down there last July and the project's been going for a little longer than that. It's about two years for the project."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. It is exciting to be down in the Houston area to be right in the center of the manned space flight aspects of the program and with mission control and certainly to talk to everyone about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you're fortunate. I know we haven't been back now in, oh, I'd say about five years. We talk about it, but we don't go.\\n\\n …Been down to Galveston?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, occasionally, occasionally. I just finished, actually, a master's degree program, so I've been a little busy with school."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 44.02308427609392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that right?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. It is exciting to be down in the Houston area to be right in the center of the manned space flight aspects of the program and with mission control and certainly to talk to everyone about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you're fortunate. I know we haven't been back now in, oh, I'd say about five years. We talk about it, but we don't go.\\n\\n …Been down to Galveston?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, occasionally, occasionally. I just finished, actually, a master's degree program, so I've been a little busy with school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where, University of Houston?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Actually, no, at the University of North Dakota."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 48.914538084548795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you're fortunate. I know we haven't been back now in, oh, I'd say about five years. We talk about it, but we don't go.\\n\\n …Been down to Galveston?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, occasionally, occasionally. I just finished, actually, a master's degree program, so I've been a little busy with school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where, University of Houston?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Actually, no, at the University of North Dakota."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you do it by correspondence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, actually, I'm doing it over the Internet. Talking a little about computers and the changing technology. With this program, we had classes online. We met at a normal class time. We talked with each other and the professors, and basically everyone in the program was working full time in the space industry somewhere, so not only did we learn from the professors, but we learned from each other. It's been a fascinating program, fascinating program."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 48, "return_to_go": 57.91918282043061, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you do it by correspondence."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, actually, I'm doing it over the Internet. Talking a little about computers and the changing technology. With this program, we had classes online. We met at a normal class time. We talked with each other and the professors, and basically everyone in the program was working full time in the space industry somewhere, so not only did we learn from the professors, but we learned from each other. It's been a fascinating program, fascinating program."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you're doing a lot of that now with video conferencing that really never had that advantage. They tried it a little later, ten years ago. I don't know, today I imagine it all works very well. I'm not in it anymore. But it was not very successful. You still wound up getting on an airplane and going someplace. Of course, that can get very expensive after a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And time-consuming."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It takes time to fly. Yes, the space program has seen quite a bit of changes in a few years out there. Now we're moving into the International Space Station age. Were you ever involved much in your working with future programs like that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.5504996501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Luckily, he was able to bring it through and get NASA back on track."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he did a very good job, I thought. We worked with Werner von Braun, if you know that name, up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When Fletcher came in the first time, von Braun was kind of out of the Huntsville area and was up at NASA headquarters and was principally—he's so dynamic and so charismatic that he would go up the Hill and sell literally anything, I guess, you know, with the accent. Very funny man, very funny man. I bought his golf clubs, I mention in there. He didn't play golf, but he got it as a gratuity for a speech one time. I held onto the check for a long period of time and I've lost it. But he really had a great sense of humor, fun to be around, especially somebody of that notoriety. He and Fletcher got along very well, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back, what would you consider to be your most significant achievement or participation in the space program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.722777389, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, he did a very good job, I thought. We worked with Werner von Braun, if you know that name, up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When Fletcher came in the first time, von Braun was kind of out of the Huntsville area and was up at NASA headquarters and was principally—he's so dynamic and so charismatic that he would go up the Hill and sell literally anything, I guess, you know, with the accent. Very funny man, very funny man. I bought his golf clubs, I mention in there. He didn't play golf, but he got it as a gratuity for a speech one time. I held onto the check for a long period of time and I've lost it. But he really had a great sense of humor, fun to be around, especially somebody of that notoriety. He and Fletcher got along very well, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back, what would you consider to be your most significant achievement or participation in the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I laugh at it, but I think my conclusion about how many astronauts were required was not only the funniest, but it turned out to be really right. I got hee-hawed at a lot about that. Jay, Jay Honeycutt. Have you met Jay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not yet, no."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 13.02530821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When Fletcher came in the first time, von Braun was kind of out of the Huntsville area and was up at NASA headquarters and was principally—he's so dynamic and so charismatic that he would go up the Hill and sell literally anything, I guess, you know, with the accent. Very funny man, very funny man. I bought his golf clubs, I mention in there. He didn't play golf, but he got it as a gratuity for a speech one time. I held onto the check for a long period of time and I've lost it. But he really had a great sense of humor, fun to be around, especially somebody of that notoriety. He and Fletcher got along very well, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back, what would you consider to be your most significant achievement or participation in the space program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I laugh at it, but I think my conclusion about how many astronauts were required was not only the funniest, but it turned out to be really right. I got hee-hawed at a lot about that. Jay, Jay Honeycutt. Have you met Jay?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not yet, no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He's quite a card. He's a very nice man. He would laugh at it, too, until he became converted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking at that, what would you say was the most challenging aspect for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A sweetheart. He sent me a piece of paper that was dated 1986. It was a newspaper article, and it was about crabs. One of the life sciences people at Johnson had figured out the way to flash-freeze crabs and mail them or send them air mail, I mean, by plane, I suspect, to Japan or the Orient where they're a delicacy, and how much money he was making on this. I've forgotten his name. Well, this is last year, I think, and I get this thing that's dated 1986. So I write back a smart-ass letter, but she [my wife] wouldn't let me send it. [Laughter] It said, \"You finally got to your 'in' basket.\" But I did send a questioning letter back, and I talked to Mary on the telephone. She said, \"Mr. Clements, he hasn't changed at all, hasn't changed at all.\"\\n\\n You're not familiar with the military? Your parents ever in the military?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Actually, my father was in the Army."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was he? So you know what the PX is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The PX at Ellington one time sold jelly beans that were purple and white, the ugliest jelly beans you ever saw in your life. There was a big box of them, probably didn't cost more than twenty cents. So I'm big on bargains, so I took, I don't know, three or four boxes. One day I went down to his office like a child and I put these jelly beans all over everything, and he came in and he was beside himself. So when I went down there later, he had not moved a one, but he was eating them. [Laughter] Great fun. We had a lot of fun with George. Great fellow. He didn't marry down there, did he? Haven't ever heard?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't believe so."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Was he? So you know what the PX is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The PX at Ellington one time sold jelly beans that were purple and white, the ugliest jelly beans you ever saw in your life. There was a big box of them, probably didn't cost more than twenty cents. So I'm big on bargains, so I took, I don't know, three or four boxes. One day I went down to his office like a child and I put these jelly beans all over everything, and he came in and he was beside himself. So when I went down there later, he had not moved a one, but he was eating them. [Laughter] Great fun. We had a lot of fun with George. Great fellow. He didn't marry down there, did he? Haven't ever heard?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't believe so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'm sure I would have heard. He gets over here quite often, but he doesn't come by anymore. He used to bring me jelly beans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we'll pass it on to him that he needs to bring you some crabs and some more jelly beans."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The PX at Ellington one time sold jelly beans that were purple and white, the ugliest jelly beans you ever saw in your life. There was a big box of them, probably didn't cost more than twenty cents. So I'm big on bargains, so I took, I don't know, three or four boxes. One day I went down to his office like a child and I put these jelly beans all over everything, and he came in and he was beside himself. So when I went down there later, he had not moved a one, but he was eating them. [Laughter] Great fun. We had a lot of fun with George. Great fellow. He didn't marry down there, did he? Haven't ever heard?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't believe so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'm sure I would have heard. He gets over here quite often, but he doesn't come by anymore. He used to bring me jelly beans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we'll pass it on to him that he needs to bring you some crabs and some more jelly beans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, we got crabs here. We do fairly well, but I kind of miss them over there. They were less expensive and they were good-sized. You wouldn't know, being from Colorado."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, not much seafood up there, and what they do have is imported."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'm sure I would have heard. He gets over here quite often, but he doesn't come by anymore. He used to bring me jelly beans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we'll pass it on to him that he needs to bring you some crabs and some more jelly beans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, we got crabs here. We do fairly well, but I kind of miss them over there. They were less expensive and they were good-sized. You wouldn't know, being from Colorado."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, not much seafood up there, and what they do have is imported."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You've got trout."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes.\\n\\n We've gone for almost two hours now."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, we got crabs here. We do fairly well, but I kind of miss them over there. They were less expensive and they were good-sized. You wouldn't know, being from Colorado."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, not much seafood up there, and what they do have is imported."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You've got trout."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes.\\n\\n We've gone for almost two hours now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that enough for you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You've got trout."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes.\\n\\n We've gone for almost two hours now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that enough for you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But if you're interested, if we do come up with some other small topics perhaps you could talk again."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00078:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is that enough for you?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But if you're interested, if we do come up with some other small topics perhaps you could talk again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd be happy to, I'd be happy to. I think George has a good idea here, and I'd like to say if they can get it on the Internet and be available to other people who might have an interest in it, that's great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great. Thank you so much."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 17, "return_to_go": 50.58556573041427, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well it was a GSA program and I think they were offering similar jobs in the other services for people with appropriate majors in those services. You have to remember that two-thirds of my career I worked for GSA. If you know what I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And as we might get to more later on I was probably more closely associated with GSA on the day to day basis than most Archives employees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we’ll be talking about that and about your contributions to then disassociating from GSA. And question, the next question, describe Day One on the job. What was it like on your first day at the job in both St. Louis and Washington?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to St. Louis on the train. I had no idea where I was going to live. Stayed in the, in the Railroad Hotel in the train station, long gone. And went out to the Center and I was sent to the Personnel Office and sworn in and then processed in the St. Louis Personnel Office. Remind me to talk with you when we get to independence time about St. Louis Personnel. Then I was taken and introduced to Joseph Schwartzberg who was the Center Director and the three Branch Chiefs. And I can only remember two names: John Gross was the Reference Branch and I think Paul Boyer was the A&D Branch. There was also a Special Projects Branch. The three Branch Chiefs had been the heads of the three military record centers. And then Mr. Gross took me to the Reference Branch Office and introduced me to his immediate staff. They asked me if I had a place to live, I said no. They took me to lunch. And then Larry Cromshaw who was one of the staff members grabbed a paper and drove me around until I found a place to live. You have to remember that this is roughly 18 months after GSA took over the Record Center from the military and what had been three separate military record centers had been merged into one and were not fully integrated yet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting—I didn't know that that was the history of the National Archives coming from the military."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 46.07073488397019, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Then in Washington, I guess we’re going to go back and forth with the time a little. I got to Washington and they sent me to Helen Buselmeier’s office. Helen was an assistant to Walter Robertson who was the long-time Administrative Law Office, Executive Director, Assistant Archivist for whatever and whatever. He had that job basically from 1941 until the mid 70’s I think. But Helen, Helen was—this was when GSA’s administrative work was still very, very centralized. Helen was his liaison with the Personnel Office and with the Budget Office. And rather than make new employees go to the GSA Building, most of them went to Helen and she did all the paperwork and stuff and sent it back and forth to GSA. But… in a real work like classification and stuff GSA sent somebody over. But anyway, I went to Helen for processing. Then she took me to Sherrod East who was the Assistant Archivist for Military Archives. So this was when Military and Civil Archives were separate. Talked to him for a minute or two and then he took me to Mabel Dietrich who was the Director of the Projects Division. She had Gary Ryan with her who was managing the project they assigned me to. And then they took me up to 10 W2 and introduced me to the staff and put me to work on Military Records, Military Command Records, what was then RG 98 but probably got split into four or five separate record groups later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is 10 W2?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The stack area that we worked in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well that sounds like a busy day. What were your impressions of the agency at the beginning of your career coming out of a history background, learning history in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had no idea what I was getting into. Except I had a history professor who had done research at the Archives and he told me I would like it, huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of training did you initially get within the National Archives? One other individual that I trained with had classes with Schellenberg and I found that to be quite interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 45.63414987107799, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The stack area that we worked in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well that sounds like a busy day. What were your impressions of the agency at the beginning of your career coming out of a history background, learning history in college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had no idea what I was getting into. Except I had a history professor who had done research at the Archives and he told me I would like it, huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of training did you initially get within the National Archives? One other individual that I trained with had classes with Schellenberg and I found that to be quite interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I met Schellenberg once but I never had classes with him. He was really gone by then. The resume I sent you had a list of all of the significant training classes I could remember. But most significant probably is when I was in St. Louis they sent me to a Civil Service Orientation for Federal Service Entrance Exam employees which is what most people being hired by the government at the 5 or 7 level were sent to by their agencies at the time. And the top managers in St. Louis at the time were very active in Toastmasters and took me along to their meetings. When I got to Washington, they had no internal training programs so they enrolled me in the Modern Archives Institute that NARA and American University did jointly at the time. And I think I remember John Fawcett went through that at the same time I did. You know John Fawcett?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. No, I don't recall him."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 48.60651559818653, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He came out of the Hoover Library about the same time I started in Washington. He was Assistant Archivist for Presidential Libraries for quite a while. And his ex-wife, Sharon, was Assistant Archivist for Presidential Libraries later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Interesting because John Fawcett and I got letters from our Draft Boards about the same time. And I flunked the physical but he passed. And he had connections so when he finished basic training he ended up in the White House as a military aide to the Johnsons. But anyway to wrap up the thing, the most important training, when the Archives finally had a training course for new archivists, I took it, but it was, you know, several years later. Three or four years later. When I was a GSA management intern I went to several classes both GSA and the old Civil Service Commission had for management interns because it was a big government-wide push at that time including some computer classes. And then the Archives sent me to the Federal Executive Institute in 1982. I went in a PBS slot and I think the situation at the time is they were trying to get me out of the building or get rid of me or do something with me. And PBS had given up a slot because the administrator had said something at some staff meeting about what a waste of money the Federal Executive Institute was. So PBS elected to give up a slot and the Archives didn't care if the administrator was upset with them so they sent me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't think it was a waste of time but…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well it seems like you do have a lot of government sponsored training and education and maybe we can draw on some of that, you have a really a nice list of business classes that you seemed to take so I'm sure that helped you along the way as you got further into your career. Moving onto something else. Your first work experiences in the National Archives, can you just describe some of the people and positions and some of the work that you did?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 40.97077066187661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some. There were some. But I was mainly supposed to work with the paper records unless I really needed to ask somebody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that time and I might as well ask this question right here, when you're dealing with those - - in the military, were they all paper records or were there other types of records?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Paper and microfilm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Microfilm, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a lot of microfilm. And, I spent some time but not very much rotating through microfilm of organizational records that were being used even before the fire to reconstruct service records if something was missing. So if they’d get a request in and they thought they couldn't find the record and they thought there should be something, they’d send me or whoever to microfilm of things like Muster Rolls or Morning Reports to see if we could identify the person. And that’s sort of the approach they used for reconstruction after the fire. So there were a lot of microfilm records that weren’t purely Personnel Records but used to supplement them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after that you decided to move in the summer of?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 37.74530073541845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Paper and microfilm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Microfilm, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a lot of microfilm. And, I spent some time but not very much rotating through microfilm of organizational records that were being used even before the fire to reconstruct service records if something was missing. So if they’d get a request in and they thought they couldn't find the record and they thought there should be something, they’d send me or whoever to microfilm of things like Muster Rolls or Morning Reports to see if we could identify the person. And that’s sort of the approach they used for reconstruction after the fire. So there were a lot of microfilm records that weren’t purely Personnel Records but used to supplement them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after that you decided to move in the summer of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well that was the deal. The deal from the beginning was that I’d do one summer in Military and one in Civil and then I’d go to a library. So the second summer I was at the Civilian Building. And mostly it rotates around different reference tasks. They found out that I’d done some drafting in high school and they had me working on a shelving plan for the Vital Records Depository in Neosho, Missouri. I don’t know if you know about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don’t, could you elaborate a little bit on that."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 23, "return_to_go": 40.82811192824273, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a lot of microfilm. And, I spent some time but not very much rotating through microfilm of organizational records that were being used even before the fire to reconstruct service records if something was missing. So if they’d get a request in and they thought they couldn't find the record and they thought there should be something, they’d send me or whoever to microfilm of things like Muster Rolls or Morning Reports to see if we could identify the person. And that’s sort of the approach they used for reconstruction after the fire. So there were a lot of microfilm records that weren’t purely Personnel Records but used to supplement them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after that you decided to move in the summer of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well that was the deal. The deal from the beginning was that I’d do one summer in Military and one in Civil and then I’d go to a library. So the second summer I was at the Civilian Building. And mostly it rotates around different reference tasks. They found out that I’d done some drafting in high school and they had me working on a shelving plan for the Vital Records Depository in Neosho, Missouri. I don’t know if you know about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don’t, could you elaborate a little bit on that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had a Federal Records Depository in a cave in Neosho that they had inherited from somebody. And I don’t remember much about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the National Archives at the time identify what a Vital Record was?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.849126548152306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I didn't really, you know, I met Truman. I didn’t really meet the others, I was just in the room or sitting there being talked about while they were there. I got an autographed picture on my birthday from Truman. Truman was there, oh, an average of three days a week, mainly. And you know he did not have Secret Service protection or didn’t you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t know that at the time. I didn’t know when that began for ex-Presidents."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He did not have Secret Service protection. He had a Kansas City detective who sat in the library most days and my bicycle was stolen out from under the nose of the Kansas City detective. [Chuckling] Which really upset the Independence, err, the Independence detective rather, it really upset the Independence Police Department."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I was Harry Truman I might be a little worried myself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Truman walked some days. And he liked to get there early because he liked to read the hate mail before his secretary censored it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughing] So Truman was everything that you thought he was when you first met him? Like your impressions of him before you even met him?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 23.16569616461367, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He did not have Secret Service protection. He had a Kansas City detective who sat in the library most days and my bicycle was stolen out from under the nose of the Kansas City detective. [Chuckling] Which really upset the Independence, err, the Independence detective rather, it really upset the Independence Police Department."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If I was Harry Truman I might be a little worried myself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Truman walked some days. And he liked to get there early because he liked to read the hate mail before his secretary censored it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughing] So Truman was everything that you thought he was when you first met him? Like your impressions of him before you even met him?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I didn’t have much of an impression before I met him. He used to, once every week or two, he’d have the guards round up everybody in the museum and run them into the auditorium they had and he'd answer questions from school kids. And he’d tell them, he wanted questions from the children, not from the adults. And he was very good at answering the children and if an adult asked him a question he was nasty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. He’s just a character—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.20456316618972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I didn’t have much of an impression before I met him. He used to, once every week or two, he’d have the guards round up everybody in the museum and run them into the auditorium they had and he'd answer questions from school kids. And he’d tell them, he wanted questions from the children, not from the adults. And he was very good at answering the children and if an adult asked him a question he was nasty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. He’s just a character—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But this is 52 years ago. Anyway… going into August sometime Dr. Brooks told me that he couldn’t keep me. That he was losing a position. And I could make a choice. They were going to take care of me. I could make a choice of whether I wanted to go to Hoover, Eisenhower, or Washington. And I picked Washington."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, because I think I wanted to go to graduate school which I had thought about doing at the University of Kansas City which is now the University of Missouri, Kansas City, and it looked more doable in Washington than in either of the other two places."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you thinking at this time of furthering your education to work within the National Archives or were you thinking of leaving the National Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.72168292122187, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, because I think I wanted to go to graduate school which I had thought about doing at the University of Kansas City which is now the University of Missouri, Kansas City, and it looked more doable in Washington than in either of the other two places."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you thinking at this time of furthering your education to work within the National Archives or were you thinking of leaving the National Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Within. By that time I was happy working for the Archives or GSA or whoever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing that sort of sticks with me is that you know I’d ask questions about things, the way things were done… that seemed a little odd to me and the answer from Brooks frequently was, well, he might do it differently but we did things the way that Herman Kahn had done them at the Roosevelt Library because he was, you know, the Truman Library was still relatively new and he was trying to follow the precedents from the Roosevelt Library."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was what Kahn saying, was that counter to what you learned?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 26.9403492854591, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "One thing that sort of sticks with me is that you know I’d ask questions about things, the way things were done… that seemed a little odd to me and the answer from Brooks frequently was, well, he might do it differently but we did things the way that Herman Kahn had done them at the Roosevelt Library because he was, you know, the Truman Library was still relatively new and he was trying to follow the precedents from the Roosevelt Library."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was what Kahn saying, was that counter to what you learned?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not necessarily, it's just attitude, sort of, and I don't know—it's hard to put a finger on. It's been too long."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think I mentioned somewhere but we can come back to it later if you want, Brooks’s son worked for me for a short time in the 70’s and he might be somebody worth interviewing. If he’s not on your list already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you mentioned Brooks as one of the three people that you mentioned as being responsible for a lot of furthering the National Archives cause."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 28.822610317176775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not necessarily, it's just attitude, sort of, and I don't know—it's hard to put a finger on. It's been too long."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think I mentioned somewhere but we can come back to it later if you want, Brooks’s son worked for me for a short time in the 70’s and he might be somebody worth interviewing. If he’s not on your list already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you mentioned Brooks as one of the three people that you mentioned as being responsible for a lot of furthering the National Archives cause."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Brooks stayed with the Archives during the war. And he was one of the people, that’s probably a different conversation or a different part of the conversation, but he was probably one of the people who founded Records Management if you know what I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, very interesting. And from there you decided to go, can you talk a little bit about your move to DC?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 30.91401146352975, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I think I mentioned somewhere but we can come back to it later if you want, Brooks’s son worked for me for a short time in the 70’s and he might be somebody worth interviewing. If he’s not on your list already."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you mentioned Brooks as one of the three people that you mentioned as being responsible for a lot of furthering the National Archives cause."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Brooks stayed with the Archives during the war. And he was one of the people, that’s probably a different conversation or a different part of the conversation, but he was probably one of the people who founded Records Management if you know what I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, very interesting. And from there you decided to go, can you talk a little bit about your move to DC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I came to DC I moved myself and I came to DC. We talked about what I did the first year in DC and I started at American University when I got here that fall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of classes were you taking at American University?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.35063143645648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I came to DC I moved myself and I came to DC. We talked about what I did the first year in DC and I started at American University when I got here that fall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What type of classes were you taking at American University?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took public administration and political science classes. I applied both to the History Department and the School of Government and the History Department didn’t seem to want me and the School of Government and Public Administration did seem to want me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And probably the History Chairman was sort of ho-hum and talking to the Dean of the School of Government and Public Administration and he wants me to sign up so I did. Mabel Dietrich I guess influenced me on that. She had gotten her PhD in Public Administration. From American University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at this time you also continued your day work at the National Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 37.05625715161831, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took public administration and political science classes. I applied both to the History Department and the School of Government and the History Department didn’t seem to want me and the School of Government and Public Administration did seem to want me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm-hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And probably the History Chairman was sort of ho-hum and talking to the Dean of the School of Government and Public Administration and he wants me to sign up so I did. Mabel Dietrich I guess influenced me on that. She had gotten her PhD in Public Administration. From American University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at this time you also continued your day work at the National Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of your projects that you did there during this period?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 26.33635989029163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh. Oh there was some compute stuff. And I think there was some basic personnel stuff. And I forget what all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So was there any thought among management at this time of thinking about how to bring the National Archives into the present in the sense of possibly, you know, creating more organization and things like that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re a little too early for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it was during the AHA meeting in 1965, right after Wayne Grover retired as Archivist that he made a speech about how the Archives should get out of GSA. And that started an independence movement that ran from ‘65 to ‘67 or so. I don't remember. I don't know who else you can ask about that but. There was an effort to get the Archives out of GSA during the period right after Grover retired while Bahmer was Archivist. Grover had enlisted Ladybird Johnson’s support. Bahmer was all for it to begin with but I think Bahmer cooled on it near the end because it became clear that if the Archives wanted out of GSA it would have to give up the Records Management Program and he thought that would be a fatal mistake."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So why would that be so? Why would you have to give up the Records Management?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.471665737374835, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the Archives got some budgeting and planning and internal records management and other authorities that had previously been completely centralized in the GSA Building."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So this is part of the idea of throwing more money at the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it was at the same time but it wasn't part of the same idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because there were changes going on in the rest of the GSA, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s the origins of us leaving GSA."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 32.746295263749815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it was at the same time but it wasn't part of the same idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because there were changes going on in the rest of the GSA, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s the origins of us leaving GSA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the first effort—the failed effort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then in 1968 to ‘74 you became a Senior Program Analyst."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.49588362638868, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because there were changes going on in the rest of the GSA, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that’s the origins of us leaving GSA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the first effort—the failed effort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then in 1968 to ‘74 you became a Senior Program Analyst."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well first I was that and then I was Chief of the Planning and Analysis Branch. When the budget people came they made the Budget Branch and the Planning and Analysis Branch. And the budget guy that came from GSA was the Budget Branch and I was the Planning and Analysis Branch. Then he became the Division Director, the budget guy. John Awkward who had been the Archives budget person at GSA and who had been in government since 1939 or something. He was the other best boss I had of two best bosses. Awkward had been with the government since before World War II. He’d never taken a day of sick leave. He had a heart attack about 1973 and he was out for almost 2 years and did it all on sick leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. They don’t make them like that anymore. [Chuckling]"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 30.55098180709853, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the first effort—the failed effort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then in 1968 to ‘74 you became a Senior Program Analyst."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well first I was that and then I was Chief of the Planning and Analysis Branch. When the budget people came they made the Budget Branch and the Planning and Analysis Branch. And the budget guy that came from GSA was the Budget Branch and I was the Planning and Analysis Branch. Then he became the Division Director, the budget guy. John Awkward who had been the Archives budget person at GSA and who had been in government since 1939 or something. He was the other best boss I had of two best bosses. Awkward had been with the government since before World War II. He’d never taken a day of sick leave. He had a heart attack about 1973 and he was out for almost 2 years and did it all on sick leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. They don’t make them like that anymore. [Chuckling]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But then he retired and he had a heart attack and died."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So during this period of Robertson, Williams and Awkward, you have the—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.927138033454977, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But then he retired and he had a heart attack and died."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So during this period of Robertson, Williams and Awkward, you have the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Well you sent me the memo that Robertson wrote in December ‘67—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—that even though I was reassigned on paper I stayed in the Publication and Sales Branch on a day to day basis until probably March of '68 because that was when they finally found a replacement who was Betty Hill. And I don’t know if I mentioned Howard Greenberg or you want to get into that at all but my assistant in the Publication and Sales was Rose Greenberg. And her husband Howard had been Commissioner of the Utilization and Disposal Service in GSA. And LBJ appointed him Administrator of Small Business. And LBJ tended to appoint careerists to agency head positions unlike virtually every other President. So he took Howard Greenberg out of GSA and he made him Administrator of Small Business. Lawson Knott who was Administrator of GSA had been Commissioner of the Public Building Service and had worked his way up. And I think that LBJ did that in other agencies, too. He basically promoted or reassigned career employees. Anyway once I got to work for Robertson and Williams was my immediate supervisor, before Awkward, as part of the “give them more money” I did the study that resulted in the Regional Archives and another study that resulted in spending a lot of money on preservation including basically redoing the Paper Preservation Lab and drastically expanding the reproduction of microfilm and motion pictures and some recordings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we can reference here the material that you had from your file, “Microfilm Publics and Archival Records a Cost Effective Study.”"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.14126448161664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Well you sent me the memo that Robertson wrote in December ‘67—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—that even though I was reassigned on paper I stayed in the Publication and Sales Branch on a day to day basis until probably March of '68 because that was when they finally found a replacement who was Betty Hill. And I don’t know if I mentioned Howard Greenberg or you want to get into that at all but my assistant in the Publication and Sales was Rose Greenberg. And her husband Howard had been Commissioner of the Utilization and Disposal Service in GSA. And LBJ appointed him Administrator of Small Business. And LBJ tended to appoint careerists to agency head positions unlike virtually every other President. So he took Howard Greenberg out of GSA and he made him Administrator of Small Business. Lawson Knott who was Administrator of GSA had been Commissioner of the Public Building Service and had worked his way up. And I think that LBJ did that in other agencies, too. He basically promoted or reassigned career employees. Anyway once I got to work for Robertson and Williams was my immediate supervisor, before Awkward, as part of the “give them more money” I did the study that resulted in the Regional Archives and another study that resulted in spending a lot of money on preservation including basically redoing the Paper Preservation Lab and drastically expanding the reproduction of microfilm and motion pictures and some recordings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we can reference here the material that you had from your file, “Microfilm Publics and Archival Records a Cost Effective Study.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was a similar study on preservation but I don’t remember the title or have a copy of it. The preservation one, the preservation one is interesting because you opened the cover and we had a picture of nitrate film exploding. And that’s what they sent up on the Hill with their budget request is this picture of nitrate film exploding and why we needed money to copy it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the goal was to get more money from Congress, that's what this report really was aiming at?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.601404979574045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—that even though I was reassigned on paper I stayed in the Publication and Sales Branch on a day to day basis until probably March of '68 because that was when they finally found a replacement who was Betty Hill. And I don’t know if I mentioned Howard Greenberg or you want to get into that at all but my assistant in the Publication and Sales was Rose Greenberg. And her husband Howard had been Commissioner of the Utilization and Disposal Service in GSA. And LBJ appointed him Administrator of Small Business. And LBJ tended to appoint careerists to agency head positions unlike virtually every other President. So he took Howard Greenberg out of GSA and he made him Administrator of Small Business. Lawson Knott who was Administrator of GSA had been Commissioner of the Public Building Service and had worked his way up. And I think that LBJ did that in other agencies, too. He basically promoted or reassigned career employees. Anyway once I got to work for Robertson and Williams was my immediate supervisor, before Awkward, as part of the “give them more money” I did the study that resulted in the Regional Archives and another study that resulted in spending a lot of money on preservation including basically redoing the Paper Preservation Lab and drastically expanding the reproduction of microfilm and motion pictures and some recordings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we can reference here the material that you had from your file, “Microfilm Publics and Archival Records a Cost Effective Study.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was a similar study on preservation but I don’t remember the title or have a copy of it. The preservation one, the preservation one is interesting because you opened the cover and we had a picture of nitrate film exploding. And that’s what they sent up on the Hill with their budget request is this picture of nitrate film exploding and why we needed money to copy it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the goal was to get more money from Congress, that's what this report really was aiming at?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was to do more microfilm or was it part of the regional push for Regional Archives—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 27.33489442174894, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was a similar study on preservation but I don’t remember the title or have a copy of it. The preservation one, the preservation one is interesting because you opened the cover and we had a picture of nitrate film exploding. And that’s what they sent up on the Hill with their budget request is this picture of nitrate film exploding and why we needed money to copy it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the goal was to get more money from Congress, that's what this report really was aiming at?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was to do more microfilm or was it part of the regional push for Regional Archives—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Well the whole package was the regions and microfilm and copying movies and sound recordings. And it was not successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your idea? What was your push for having Regional Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.81654935749882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was to do more microfilm or was it part of the regional push for Regional Archives—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Well the whole package was the regions and microfilm and copying movies and sound recordings. And it was not successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your idea? What was your push for having Regional Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well Bahmer, the Seventh Annual Report basically suggests the idea. And Bahmer wanted it done on his way out the door. And Herb Angel because—when Bahmer retired, Rhoads became Archivist. Herb Angel became Deputy Archivist. And Herb Angel was the one who wrote this other thing, “The Report of the Archivist.” So it was sort of put to me as carrying out this vision that they’d had for decades and never been able to do…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is one of the reasons why to develop a Regional Archives is because there’s permanent records in the field?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 27.57394373055424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Well the whole package was the regions and microfilm and copying movies and sound recordings. And it was not successful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what was your idea? What was your push for having Regional Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well Bahmer, the Seventh Annual Report basically suggests the idea. And Bahmer wanted it done on his way out the door. And Herb Angel because—when Bahmer retired, Rhoads became Archivist. Herb Angel became Deputy Archivist. And Herb Angel was the one who wrote this other thing, “The Report of the Archivist.” So it was sort of put to me as carrying out this vision that they’d had for decades and never been able to do…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is one of the reasons why to develop a Regional Archives is because there’s permanent records in the field?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it also because of the availability of microfilm in other regions and not having to go to DC to actually view the—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.52660414506027, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well Bahmer, the Seventh Annual Report basically suggests the idea. And Bahmer wanted it done on his way out the door. And Herb Angel because—when Bahmer retired, Rhoads became Archivist. Herb Angel became Deputy Archivist. And Herb Angel was the one who wrote this other thing, “The Report of the Archivist.” So it was sort of put to me as carrying out this vision that they’d had for decades and never been able to do…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is one of the reasons why to develop a Regional Archives is because there’s permanent records in the field?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it also because of the availability of microfilm in other regions and not having to go to DC to actually view the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Yes. Yes yes, and yes, and also to build a presence in the rest of the country. Build a constituency. And I think that’s the notion that's sort of gotten lost. We can come to that later if you want. You need to read the Manifesto for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, okay. And the Manifesto, I will track it down and it will be part of your folder. But the question I think I’ll just ask right now, do you feel that that was a success in your term up until you left in ‘98? The Regional Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.807337938955854, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it also because of the availability of microfilm in other regions and not having to go to DC to actually view the—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Yes. Yes yes, and yes, and also to build a presence in the rest of the country. Build a constituency. And I think that’s the notion that's sort of gotten lost. We can come to that later if you want. You need to read the Manifesto for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, okay. And the Manifesto, I will track it down and it will be part of your folder. But the question I think I’ll just ask right now, do you feel that that was a success in your term up until you left in ‘98? The Regional Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Thoughtful pause] Well let’s put it this way as an answer to that question. I don’t think I accomplished everything with the Regional Archives that I envisioned them doing. And I don’t think some of what I accomplished has endured."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to speak about that now? About what your vision for that or would you like?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 36.45259770995095, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Yes. Yes yes, and yes, and also to build a presence in the rest of the country. Build a constituency. And I think that’s the notion that's sort of gotten lost. We can come to that later if you want. You need to read the Manifesto for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, okay. And the Manifesto, I will track it down and it will be part of your folder. But the question I think I’ll just ask right now, do you feel that that was a success in your term up until you left in ‘98? The Regional Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Thoughtful pause] Well let’s put it this way as an answer to that question. I don’t think I accomplished everything with the Regional Archives that I envisioned them doing. And I don’t think some of what I accomplished has endured."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to speak about that now? About what your vision for that or would you like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, let’s go through your questions and come back to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Let’s proceed through the ‘68 to ‘74 Senior Program Analyst."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 32.72510856661217, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Thoughtful pause] Well let’s put it this way as an answer to that question. I don’t think I accomplished everything with the Regional Archives that I envisioned them doing. And I don’t think some of what I accomplished has endured."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you like to speak about that now? About what your vision for that or would you like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, let’s go through your questions and come back to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Let’s proceed through the ‘68 to ‘74 Senior Program Analyst."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So one of the things I did there was write the...it was only a year and a half or two years after the Freedom of Information Act was originally passed. And so I drafted the regulations. We didn’t have any lawyers. You know we weren’t allowed to have lawyers. Bert Rhoads had written a memo to GSA about what the Archives thought should be open and not open which was probably more open than the Archives’ current philosophy is. I worked with Julius Silverstein who was the GSA lawyer assigned to us on drafting regulations. And I think both Julius and Bert were more open than the current management is but I can’t tell you that for sure because I’ve been gone for too many years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this post-Watergate or is this pre-Watergate?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 34.13900951845797, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, let’s go through your questions and come back to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Let’s proceed through the ‘68 to ‘74 Senior Program Analyst."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So one of the things I did there was write the...it was only a year and a half or two years after the Freedom of Information Act was originally passed. And so I drafted the regulations. We didn’t have any lawyers. You know we weren’t allowed to have lawyers. Bert Rhoads had written a memo to GSA about what the Archives thought should be open and not open which was probably more open than the Archives’ current philosophy is. I worked with Julius Silverstein who was the GSA lawyer assigned to us on drafting regulations. And I think both Julius and Bert were more open than the current management is but I can’t tell you that for sure because I’ve been gone for too many years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this post-Watergate or is this pre-Watergate?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pre-Watergate. 1968."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the Freedom of Information Act was before we realized that there may be an actual real need for it out of Watergate, right? Well what do you think was the impetus for implementing regulations?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 31.899115254470306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I did the FOIA and then I’d done the regional study. And then a bunch of organizational decisions were made basically at the beginning of ‘69 I think. Lawson Knott quit as Administrator after the election I think it was. After the ‘68 election. Among the last things he did was approve the reorganizations to set up the Regional Archives. And the reorganization to cut the number of NARS Regional Commissioners from 10 to 5. The way it was told to me, I'm not sure it's 100% accurate, but what Robertson told me was that they had a conference call, Knott's last act was a conference call where he told the heads of the various GSA Services that he was leaving and by the way he'd cut the number of NARS regions in half and you can ask the Archivist which…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So can you explain that further? Because I think our audience may not understand the actual setup of the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a National Archives Regional Commissioner in each of the 10 GSA Regions. And the Regional Commissioner worked for the GSA Regional Administrator. And under the Regional Commissioner there was a Records Management Division and one or more Record Centers. But they worked for the GSA Regional Administrator, not for the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so what Knott did was he cut it down from 1 in each region to 5 overall."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. But he also approved setting up an Archives Branch in each Record Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So his thought process was to cut from 10 to 5 but expand on regions. Is that?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 34.332350282744784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a National Archives Regional Commissioner in each of the 10 GSA Regions. And the Regional Commissioner worked for the GSA Regional Administrator. And under the Regional Commissioner there was a Records Management Division and one or more Record Centers. But they worked for the GSA Regional Administrator, not for the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so what Knott did was he cut it down from 1 in each region to 5 overall."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. But he also approved setting up an Archives Branch in each Record Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So his thought process was to cut from 10 to 5 but expand on regions. Is that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well… [Chuckling]. Bert Rhoads’s plan was to cut from 10 to 5 and he got Knott to approve it. Exactly why he wanted to go from 10 to 5, I don't know, but I know… I think that they wanted to be rid of a couple of them for reasons that I don’t fully understand. I guess I shouldn’t say because I don’t really know for a fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you recall where those 10 regions were?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.147055869716425, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. But he also approved setting up an Archives Branch in each Record Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So his thought process was to cut from 10 to 5 but expand on regions. Is that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well… [Chuckling]. Bert Rhoads’s plan was to cut from 10 to 5 and he got Knott to approve it. Exactly why he wanted to go from 10 to 5, I don't know, but I know… I think that they wanted to be rid of a couple of them for reasons that I don’t fully understand. I guess I shouldn’t say because I don’t really know for a fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you recall where those 10 regions were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Boston was combined with New York. Let’s see. Seattle was combined with San Francisco. But Paul Cole in Seattle was supposed to go to San Francisco and elected to retire rather than go. Chicago and Kansas City were combined. Let’s see. We had New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Fort Worth remained. I think Denver and Fort Worth were combined. We ended up with San Francisco, Fort Worth, New York, Atlanta, and Kansas City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in these regions were Federal Record Centers and Record Management personnel?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 31.27450652190714, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well… [Chuckling]. Bert Rhoads’s plan was to cut from 10 to 5 and he got Knott to approve it. Exactly why he wanted to go from 10 to 5, I don't know, but I know… I think that they wanted to be rid of a couple of them for reasons that I don’t fully understand. I guess I shouldn’t say because I don’t really know for a fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you recall where those 10 regions were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Boston was combined with New York. Let’s see. Seattle was combined with San Francisco. But Paul Cole in Seattle was supposed to go to San Francisco and elected to retire rather than go. Chicago and Kansas City were combined. Let’s see. We had New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Fort Worth remained. I think Denver and Fort Worth were combined. We ended up with San Francisco, Fort Worth, New York, Atlanta, and Kansas City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in these regions were Federal Record Centers and Record Management personnel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well what… restate that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m trying to get an idea of what, of the National Archives, what presence we actually had in each one of these 5 regions."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.082785024341263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Boston was combined with New York. Let’s see. Seattle was combined with San Francisco. But Paul Cole in Seattle was supposed to go to San Francisco and elected to retire rather than go. Chicago and Kansas City were combined. Let’s see. We had New York, Chicago, Kansas City, Fort Worth remained. I think Denver and Fort Worth were combined. We ended up with San Francisco, Fort Worth, New York, Atlanta, and Kansas City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in these regions were Federal Record Centers and Record Management personnel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well what… restate that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m trying to get an idea of what, of the National Archives, what presence we actually had in each one of these 5 regions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so take the Kansas City Region and you end up with Joe Bosco is the NARS Regional Commissioner in Kansas City. And under him was a Records Management Division in Kansas City and a Records Management Division in Chicago, a Records Center in Chicago, and a Records Center in Kansas City. And by that time I think we had taken the St. Louis away from GSA and transferred it to the Central Office so it was about that time. I forget exactly when that happened. You probably need to find out if you don’t know, check on when the National Personnel Records Center was transferred from the Region to the Central Office because I don’t remember. You're asking me about stuff that’s 50 years ago. [Laughing]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well I think you have a better idea of it than I do [Laughing]."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 28.98087224926807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well what… restate that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m trying to get an idea of what, of the National Archives, what presence we actually had in each one of these 5 regions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so take the Kansas City Region and you end up with Joe Bosco is the NARS Regional Commissioner in Kansas City. And under him was a Records Management Division in Kansas City and a Records Management Division in Chicago, a Records Center in Chicago, and a Records Center in Kansas City. And by that time I think we had taken the St. Louis away from GSA and transferred it to the Central Office so it was about that time. I forget exactly when that happened. You probably need to find out if you don’t know, check on when the National Personnel Records Center was transferred from the Region to the Central Office because I don’t remember. You're asking me about stuff that’s 50 years ago. [Laughing]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well I think you have a better idea of it than I do [Laughing]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I don’t have access to the records or to anybody to go to research on records for me. And it’s been 40-some years since I’ve been in RG 64, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well you’re doing pretty good. Thank you. I appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 27.756524721408965, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, so take the Kansas City Region and you end up with Joe Bosco is the NARS Regional Commissioner in Kansas City. And under him was a Records Management Division in Kansas City and a Records Management Division in Chicago, a Records Center in Chicago, and a Records Center in Kansas City. And by that time I think we had taken the St. Louis away from GSA and transferred it to the Central Office so it was about that time. I forget exactly when that happened. You probably need to find out if you don’t know, check on when the National Personnel Records Center was transferred from the Region to the Central Office because I don’t remember. You're asking me about stuff that’s 50 years ago. [Laughing]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well I think you have a better idea of it than I do [Laughing]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I don’t have access to the records or to anybody to go to research on records for me. And it’s been 40-some years since I’ve been in RG 64, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well you’re doing pretty good. Thank you. I appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was still continuing during the ‘68 to ‘74 time period, that’s when Prologue began and the National Audiovisual Center began. And I did or supervised most of the work to set up the formal organizations for those and worked with the budget people on the budget requests. And that’s when we recombined the Office of the National Archives, then Military and Civil. I don’t know if you know about the split of the Office of the National Archives back in the 60’s before my time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well what happened there?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.840583023787737, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I don’t have access to the records or to anybody to go to research on records for me. And it’s been 40-some years since I’ve been in RG 64, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well you’re doing pretty good. Thank you. I appreciate it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was still continuing during the ‘68 to ‘74 time period, that’s when Prologue began and the National Audiovisual Center began. And I did or supervised most of the work to set up the formal organizations for those and worked with the budget people on the budget requests. And that’s when we recombined the Office of the National Archives, then Military and Civil. I don’t know if you know about the split of the Office of the National Archives back in the 60’s before my time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well what happened there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. There was an Office of the National Archives and Schellenberg was the Assistant Archivist. And I think… this is sort of hearsay now. But I think they wanted to ruin Schellenberg because I think Schellenberg had tried to replace Grover. Now there's some politics there that I was never fully aware of. There’s probably something in other oral history, older oral history that might talk about this. But about the time that happened… probably… ‘61 maybe, somewhere in there, I think the GSA Inspector General did a very critical report on description in the National Archives and said that they were not meeting the goals that they claimed to want for description. And so what was the Office of the National Archives was split into three pieces: an Office of Civil Archives under Herman Kahn to begin with and later Bert Rhoads; an Office of Military Archives under Sherrod East; and then an Office of Records Appraisals under Schellenberg. And Schellenberg got the Appraisal function and Military and Civil ended up with a reference—each with a Reference Division and a Projects Division. A Projects Division to do arrangement and description and the Reference Division to answer the mail and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very interesting. I didn’t know that."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 23.156203359764152, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was still continuing during the ‘68 to ‘74 time period, that’s when Prologue began and the National Audiovisual Center began. And I did or supervised most of the work to set up the formal organizations for those and worked with the budget people on the budget requests. And that’s when we recombined the Office of the National Archives, then Military and Civil. I don’t know if you know about the split of the Office of the National Archives back in the 60’s before my time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well what happened there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. There was an Office of the National Archives and Schellenberg was the Assistant Archivist. And I think… this is sort of hearsay now. But I think they wanted to ruin Schellenberg because I think Schellenberg had tried to replace Grover. Now there's some politics there that I was never fully aware of. There’s probably something in other oral history, older oral history that might talk about this. But about the time that happened… probably… ‘61 maybe, somewhere in there, I think the GSA Inspector General did a very critical report on description in the National Archives and said that they were not meeting the goals that they claimed to want for description. And so what was the Office of the National Archives was split into three pieces: an Office of Civil Archives under Herman Kahn to begin with and later Bert Rhoads; an Office of Military Archives under Sherrod East; and then an Office of Records Appraisals under Schellenberg. And Schellenberg got the Appraisal function and Military and Civil ended up with a reference—each with a Reference Division and a Projects Division. A Projects Division to do arrangement and description and the Reference Division to answer the mail and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very interesting. I didn’t know that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. Well you or Jessie or somebody ought to get into that but that’s beyond the scope of this, I think, unless you want to come back to it another—see that split happened before my time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well it gives a good context of what we’re facing with now, here in ‘68 to ‘74—still trying to deal with this."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 26.118769579955742, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. Well you or Jessie or somebody ought to get into that but that’s beyond the scope of this, I think, unless you want to come back to it another—see that split happened before my time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well it gives a good context of what we’re facing with now, here in ‘68 to ‘74—still trying to deal with this."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, well yeah, we’re—see I never really liked it but I don’t like a lot of stuff so. [Chuckling]. I was never really happy with the Reference Projects Division either but… And I was never happy with the machine-readable records the way it was set up. Anyway, during this whole time period I probably went through most of 1964. Looking at the history of records management and the history of the Trust Fund and related legislation. And that’s either a later call or something. Because I probably can give you some kind of an overview of how the Records Management Program came to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would like to do that. Would that be something you’d want to do now or you would want to possibly revisit at another time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, let’s continue the main line of your questions and you can write that down as something else to get into."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And you also mentioned it on the last part of your questions, in question number 20 as something you wanted to revisit."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 21.243077311061935, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, well yeah, we’re—see I never really liked it but I don’t like a lot of stuff so. [Chuckling]. I was never really happy with the Reference Projects Division either but… And I was never happy with the machine-readable records the way it was set up. Anyway, during this whole time period I probably went through most of 1964. Looking at the history of records management and the history of the Trust Fund and related legislation. And that’s either a later call or something. Because I probably can give you some kind of an overview of how the Records Management Program came to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I would like to do that. Would that be something you’d want to do now or you would want to possibly revisit at another time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, let’s continue the main line of your questions and you can write that down as something else to get into."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And you also mentioned it on the last part of your questions, in question number 20 as something you wanted to revisit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. During this time period the Privacy Act was passed. And the original bill for the Privacy Act would have killed us. And so Claudine Weiher who was my assistant at the time and who was the second person to replace me in the Publication Sales Branch, Claudine ran a sort of sub-rosa lobbying effort to get out from under the Privacy Act. Because, for example, the Privacy Act as originally drafted required separate notices to the subject of every record about being in that record without any conditions or restrictions. And we concluded that to comply with that bill, we would have to send out I don’t know how many thousand letters to George Washington in Mount Vernon, Virginia. Separate letters. Do you like that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I do, that’s quite interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 22.013530423810295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’d never done a real schedule of NARS records. You know? And we had a bunch of stuff at RG 64 but there was no real schedule. There was no handbook or anything for records. In theory under the very highly centralized GSA scheme that should have been done by somebody over in the GSA office. That's something I inherited when GSA decentralized some of the administrative stuff. So… I ended up with somebody who was supposed to do that and under my supervision and he, that didn’t work out very well. I finally, you know, we got started but getting the routine day to day stuff written and stuff wasn’t working very well and so I worked out a deal with, I think it was Jack L. Martin, who was the GSA Records Officer to send a guy over to GSA to do it under their supervision. And he ended up staying there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at this point the National Archives didn’t want a records schedule."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were GSA requiring all agencies at this time to have a records schedule?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yet it failed to have one for the National Archives."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.01503380423366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were GSA requiring all agencies at this time to have a records schedule?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yet it failed to have one for the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well most of the rest of GSA didn’t have one either. And I gather, I’m not sure, but I rather gathered that the Records Management Office, you know, which was Ed Aldridge at the time I guess, was critical of the main part of the agency for not having a schedule. What Robertson had, a 3-drawer file cabinet next to his desk or on the wall by his desk. And on it he had a stack, probably 3 feet high, of file folders with projects that he wanted done some day. That was one of them but once I started in that ‘68 to ‘74 period, every time I asked for more work or somebody was free, he’d pull another folder off the pile and say, well, here’s another project for you. Records management was one of them or record schedule was one. Improving the Forms Program was one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So slowly but surely Record Management was getting or closing into the National Archives at some point."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.016704226926286, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yet it failed to have one for the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well most of the rest of GSA didn’t have one either. And I gather, I’m not sure, but I rather gathered that the Records Management Office, you know, which was Ed Aldridge at the time I guess, was critical of the main part of the agency for not having a schedule. What Robertson had, a 3-drawer file cabinet next to his desk or on the wall by his desk. And on it he had a stack, probably 3 feet high, of file folders with projects that he wanted done some day. That was one of them but once I started in that ‘68 to ‘74 period, every time I asked for more work or somebody was free, he’d pull another folder off the pile and say, well, here’s another project for you. Records management was one of them or record schedule was one. Improving the Forms Program was one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So slowly but surely Record Management was getting or closing into the National Archives at some point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know and in some ways the Archives never really had a good Records Management Program until Ren Cahoon who put Richard Marcus on it which was much later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll mention that when I do my interview with Richard Marcus who is still around."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 22.24078247436254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well most of the rest of GSA didn’t have one either. And I gather, I’m not sure, but I rather gathered that the Records Management Office, you know, which was Ed Aldridge at the time I guess, was critical of the main part of the agency for not having a schedule. What Robertson had, a 3-drawer file cabinet next to his desk or on the wall by his desk. And on it he had a stack, probably 3 feet high, of file folders with projects that he wanted done some day. That was one of them but once I started in that ‘68 to ‘74 period, every time I asked for more work or somebody was free, he’d pull another folder off the pile and say, well, here’s another project for you. Records management was one of them or record schedule was one. Improving the Forms Program was one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So slowly but surely Record Management was getting or closing into the National Archives at some point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know and in some ways the Archives never really had a good Records Management Program until Ren Cahoon who put Richard Marcus on it which was much later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll mention that when I do my interview with Richard Marcus who is still around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was one of the good guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, he is. He’s a really good man. So this, well, yeah, in 1974 to 1979, just for pacing’s sake, John, how about if it’s okay with you, we're going to be coming up at 2:30 to an hour here. I mean do you want to continue on to the end or would you rather break it up at some point and maybe schedule another time to finish the second half of this?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 22.489758304847268, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know and in some ways the Archives never really had a good Records Management Program until Ren Cahoon who put Richard Marcus on it which was much later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’ll mention that when I do my interview with Richard Marcus who is still around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was one of the good guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, he is. He’s a really good man. So this, well, yeah, in 1974 to 1979, just for pacing’s sake, John, how about if it’s okay with you, we're going to be coming up at 2:30 to an hour here. I mean do you want to continue on to the end or would you rather break it up at some point and maybe schedule another time to finish the second half of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well let’s just go through ‘74 to ‘79 and then see where we stand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We can do that. Let’s talk about the coordination of the Staff Office of the National Archives."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 19.43306478316363, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was one of the good guys."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, he is. He’s a really good man. So this, well, yeah, in 1974 to 1979, just for pacing’s sake, John, how about if it’s okay with you, we're going to be coming up at 2:30 to an hour here. I mean do you want to continue on to the end or would you rather break it up at some point and maybe schedule another time to finish the second half of this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well let’s just go through ‘74 to ‘79 and then see where we stand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We can do that. Let’s talk about the coordination of the Staff Office of the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "New staff and… oh, there were a couple of reasons. One, they were getting flack again over not having records described and NARS A-1 was seen as a way of getting it done. Partly because I think I wanted out of the Office of what was the new Office of the Executive Director because that’s about the time Walt Robertson was going to retire and it was clear that Jack Landers was going to replace him and I didn’t want to work for Jack. Now I’m not sure I want that on the record. Is anybody interviewing Jack?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don’t know. I haven’t actually heard the name until you just mentioned it."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.25896087018181, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well let’s just go through ‘74 to ‘79 and then see where we stand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We can do that. Let’s talk about the coordination of the Staff Office of the National Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "New staff and… oh, there were a couple of reasons. One, they were getting flack again over not having records described and NARS A-1 was seen as a way of getting it done. Partly because I think I wanted out of the Office of what was the new Office of the Executive Director because that’s about the time Walt Robertson was going to retire and it was clear that Jack Landers was going to replace him and I didn’t want to work for Jack. Now I’m not sure I want that on the record. Is anybody interviewing Jack?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don’t know. I haven’t actually heard the name until you just mentioned it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John J. Landers, he was a GSA Management intern two years before I was. He ended up in the Archives. He became the Assistant Archivist before he became the Executive Director or Assistant Archivist head or whatever. When he was in that job Claudine Weiher was his assistant. When the Records Management was taken away from the Archives he went with the Records Management Program. That’s in the next ‘80-’81 period."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And at this time between ‘74 and ‘79 he was going to be your supervisor and you decided against having him as a supervisor."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.28773430020201, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "New staff and… oh, there were a couple of reasons. One, they were getting flack again over not having records described and NARS A-1 was seen as a way of getting it done. Partly because I think I wanted out of the Office of what was the new Office of the Executive Director because that’s about the time Walt Robertson was going to retire and it was clear that Jack Landers was going to replace him and I didn’t want to work for Jack. Now I’m not sure I want that on the record. Is anybody interviewing Jack?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I don’t know. I haven’t actually heard the name until you just mentioned it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John J. Landers, he was a GSA Management intern two years before I was. He ended up in the Archives. He became the Assistant Archivist before he became the Executive Director or Assistant Archivist head or whatever. When he was in that job Claudine Weiher was his assistant. When the Records Management was taken away from the Archives he went with the Records Management Program. That’s in the next ‘80-’81 period."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And at this time between ‘74 and ‘79 he was going to be your supervisor and you decided against having him as a supervisor."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I told the Archivist that I would rather work in the Office of the National Archives than work for Jack."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We don’t have to get into personalities on that one. Could you briefly just describe what NARS A-1 is?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.120003505871075, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] No, it wasn’t that they didn't want us to spend the money, we weren’t allowed to have computers. Only GSA, GSA Centralized Computer Services. They happened to be in the region at that time but GSA had centralized computer services, individual services were not allowed to have computers. You see why we didn’t like being in GSA. What would you think if they told you that you can save something to a disk but you can save the data on a spreadsheet to a disk but you can't sort it except by sending it to Washington and having somebody sort it for you and send you a printout back?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, same thing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s sort of like copying, you know where we had centralize copying services at first and you had to fill out a chit and send stuff to the regional office building if you wanted it copied. And we got around that by having the trust fund by copying machines for reference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, these examples are good for when we talk about the moving away, independence from GSA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway. Alan figured out that this and nobody paid much attention to the equipment that the Silent Studio bought for processing silent records and stuff so we had them buy the circuit card and put it in. So we were able to do description and do some processing of it that way. And started working on a lot of things including RG 21 and it was RG 21 I think that set off the blast between Trudy and me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And you’re referencing at correspondent email that would be in your folder."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 22.35555945096786, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s sort of like copying, you know where we had centralize copying services at first and you had to fill out a chit and send stuff to the regional office building if you wanted it copied. And we got around that by having the trust fund by copying machines for reference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, these examples are good for when we talk about the moving away, independence from GSA."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway. Alan figured out that this and nobody paid much attention to the equipment that the Silent Studio bought for processing silent records and stuff so we had them buy the circuit card and put it in. So we were able to do description and do some processing of it that way. And started working on a lot of things including RG 21 and it was RG 21 I think that set off the blast between Trudy and me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And you’re referencing at correspondent email that would be in your folder."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to get into the pushing out by O’Neill, Reed, and Peterson of you after Rhoads and Dietrich retired?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.37723389008378, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to get into the pushing out by O’Neill, Reed, and Peterson of you after Rhoads and Dietrich retired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let me talk a little more about leading up to that because during this time and probably I think it was ‘73 when the government changed fiscal years, they changed the beginning of the fiscal year there was what they called an interim quarter. And the way the budget worked out we had a lot of money, the agency had a lot of money for a quarter that it didn't know how to spend. And so Claudine and I came up with a plan for buying shelving to put in areas that had never had shelving and there were like 43 stack areas that were never shelved originally. That either had prison industry shelving in them or steel trays piled up on the floor or, you know, stuff every which way. So we bought that shelving, I think it was ‘73, it might have been ‘72. After Mabel Dietrich became the Assistant Archivist, in effect, became in effect, her Number Two. Al Eisinger was reassigned. He’d been the Deputy Assistant Archivist under Ned Campbell. When Mabel retired, Mabel had retired about the same time Bert Rhoads retired. And O’Neill l took over as Acting Archivist and Dan Reed came out of retirement, he was a pre-employed annuitant, to replace Mabel. And Trudy, he wanted Trudy as his right hand. So I was invited to leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to get into...I’ll just say that you say whatever you feel comfortable saying about this incident if there's anything more you’d like to tell me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think O'Neill or Reed had the confidence in me that Rhoads and Dietrich had. And it was clear that they did not want me to stay in that position."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it personal or professional? The things that you think it was based on."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.085815433426422, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let me talk a little more about leading up to that because during this time and probably I think it was ‘73 when the government changed fiscal years, they changed the beginning of the fiscal year there was what they called an interim quarter. And the way the budget worked out we had a lot of money, the agency had a lot of money for a quarter that it didn't know how to spend. And so Claudine and I came up with a plan for buying shelving to put in areas that had never had shelving and there were like 43 stack areas that were never shelved originally. That either had prison industry shelving in them or steel trays piled up on the floor or, you know, stuff every which way. So we bought that shelving, I think it was ‘73, it might have been ‘72. After Mabel Dietrich became the Assistant Archivist, in effect, became in effect, her Number Two. Al Eisinger was reassigned. He’d been the Deputy Assistant Archivist under Ned Campbell. When Mabel retired, Mabel had retired about the same time Bert Rhoads retired. And O’Neill l took over as Acting Archivist and Dan Reed came out of retirement, he was a pre-employed annuitant, to replace Mabel. And Trudy, he wanted Trudy as his right hand. So I was invited to leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to get into...I’ll just say that you say whatever you feel comfortable saying about this incident if there's anything more you’d like to tell me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think O'Neill or Reed had the confidence in me that Rhoads and Dietrich had. And it was clear that they did not want me to stay in that position."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it personal or professional? The things that you think it was based on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d have to ask them. I don’t know if anybody’s interviewed Trudy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, she’s on my list though."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.65090603714047, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think O'Neill or Reed had the confidence in me that Rhoads and Dietrich had. And it was clear that they did not want me to stay in that position."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it personal or professional? The things that you think it was based on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d have to ask them. I don’t know if anybody’s interviewed Trudy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, she’s on my list though."}, {"role": "user", "content": "O’Neill's dead, I don’t know what the status of Reed is. He’s probably dead ‘cause he was a lot older. I don’t think Trudy and I were ever really friends. So you’d have to ask Trudy why she thinks I left. But the way it played out is Forrest Williams who had been my boss part of the time in the Office of the Executive Director, and who was one of the worst bosses I ever had, came in and suggested to me that I might be happier in the Office of Records Management. And I went and told Reed that and he and Trudy sat down with me and said if, if Williams made you an offer you'd better take it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel about the move personally?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.389895596822743, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d have to ask them. I don’t know if anybody’s interviewed Trudy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, she’s on my list though."}, {"role": "user", "content": "O’Neill's dead, I don’t know what the status of Reed is. He’s probably dead ‘cause he was a lot older. I don’t think Trudy and I were ever really friends. So you’d have to ask Trudy why she thinks I left. But the way it played out is Forrest Williams who had been my boss part of the time in the Office of the Executive Director, and who was one of the worst bosses I ever had, came in and suggested to me that I might be happier in the Office of Records Management. And I went and told Reed that and he and Trudy sat down with me and said if, if Williams made you an offer you'd better take it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel about the move personally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was very unhappy. But I didn't see that I could object or fight it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you at that time have a feeling that maybe Record Management would be a strength of yours which eventually it became?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.210995107580825, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "O’Neill's dead, I don’t know what the status of Reed is. He’s probably dead ‘cause he was a lot older. I don’t think Trudy and I were ever really friends. So you’d have to ask Trudy why she thinks I left. But the way it played out is Forrest Williams who had been my boss part of the time in the Office of the Executive Director, and who was one of the worst bosses I ever had, came in and suggested to me that I might be happier in the Office of Records Management. And I went and told Reed that and he and Trudy sat down with me and said if, if Williams made you an offer you'd better take it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you feel about the move personally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was very unhappy. But I didn't see that I could object or fight it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you at that time have a feeling that maybe Record Management would be a strength of yours which eventually it became?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was under the impression at the time that Frosty was just—Frosty wasn’t—everybody called him Frosty was destroying the Office of Records Management. Like I said, I didn’t want to go, I didn’t see as I had much choice. I… seriously looked at other employment at the time. But it didn’t work out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you felt that that was kind of like an exile for you into Record Management?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.234439008423138, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was very unhappy. But I didn't see that I could object or fight it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you at that time have a feeling that maybe Record Management would be a strength of yours which eventually it became?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was under the impression at the time that Frosty was just—Frosty wasn’t—everybody called him Frosty was destroying the Office of Records Management. Like I said, I didn’t want to go, I didn’t see as I had much choice. I… seriously looked at other employment at the time. But it didn’t work out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you felt that that was kind of like an exile for you into Record Management?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I don’t think the position and division they put me in were even necessary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you’d like to say about this moment of you being pushed out of that position?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.067208652374244, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I don’t think the position and division they put me in were even necessary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you’d like to say about this moment of you being pushed out of that position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Thoughtful pause]. No, but backing up a little to that time from ‘74 to ‘79 I supervised Charles Halt who was then the Regional Archives Coordinator. And one of the things we did during that period was dramatically increase the size of the Regional Archives staff. I sort of skipped over that. Roots came out during that time and the workload increased several fold. You know the reference workload."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we dramatically increased the Regional Archive staff and if you’d asked me 15 years ago I probably could have given you numbers but I don’t remember now. But when I left the Office of the National Archives, the staff in the Regional Archives Program was probably close to twice the size it was when I went back into the Regional Archives Program five years later. So during the time I was not involved in the Regional Archives Program, it got cut dramatically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you think that Roots in some ways helped to fortify the Regional Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.074676280415826, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Thoughtful pause]. No, but backing up a little to that time from ‘74 to ‘79 I supervised Charles Halt who was then the Regional Archives Coordinator. And one of the things we did during that period was dramatically increase the size of the Regional Archives staff. I sort of skipped over that. Roots came out during that time and the workload increased several fold. You know the reference workload."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we dramatically increased the Regional Archive staff and if you’d asked me 15 years ago I probably could have given you numbers but I don’t remember now. But when I left the Office of the National Archives, the staff in the Regional Archives Program was probably close to twice the size it was when I went back into the Regional Archives Program five years later. So during the time I was not involved in the Regional Archives Program, it got cut dramatically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you think that Roots in some ways helped to fortify the Regional Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In an interview from somebody that had given an interview in the past two years, his name is David Kepley, he had mentioned that Roots had helped to increase the amount of traffic through the National Archives by at least tenfold."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.082973644906474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we dramatically increased the Regional Archive staff and if you’d asked me 15 years ago I probably could have given you numbers but I don’t remember now. But when I left the Office of the National Archives, the staff in the Regional Archives Program was probably close to twice the size it was when I went back into the Regional Archives Program five years later. So during the time I was not involved in the Regional Archives Program, it got cut dramatically."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you think that Roots in some ways helped to fortify the Regional Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In an interview from somebody that had given an interview in the past two years, his name is David Kepley, he had mentioned that Roots had helped to increase the amount of traffic through the National Archives by at least tenfold."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s probably about right. I could have given you numbers, like I said, if I remembered them years ago but… it was almost overnight. And it was both in Washington and in all the regions. You interviewed David’s wife?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I haven’t. And you recommend she be interviewed?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.314415161007194, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In an interview from somebody that had given an interview in the past two years, his name is David Kepley, he had mentioned that Roots had helped to increase the amount of traffic through the National Archives by at least tenfold."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s probably about right. I could have given you numbers, like I said, if I remembered them years ago but… it was almost overnight. And it was both in Washington and in all the regions. You interviewed David’s wife?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I haven’t. And you recommend she be interviewed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I… yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know she’s on my list but I’ll make sure I get in contact with her. Do you think at this point revisiting some of the Regional Archives work that you did during this period, do you think that there were forces within the National Archives that were working against the Regional Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 24.793794623341327, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s probably about right. I could have given you numbers, like I said, if I remembered them years ago but… it was almost overnight. And it was both in Washington and in all the regions. You interviewed David’s wife?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I haven’t. And you recommend she be interviewed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I… yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know she’s on my list but I’ll make sure I get in contact with her. Do you think at this point revisiting some of the Regional Archives work that you did during this period, do you think that there were forces within the National Archives that were working against the Regional Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why would you think that that would be the case?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 26.437549581490362, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I… yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know she’s on my list but I’ll make sure I get in contact with her. Do you think at this point revisiting some of the Regional Archives work that you did during this period, do you think that there were forces within the National Archives that were working against the Regional Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why would you think that that would be the case?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well there were some people who didn’t believe in the Regional Archives at all. And some people who thought we shouldn’t be sending records to the regions but we ought to be keeping them all in Washington. And people that were of the opinion that the only thing they have worthwhile is microfilm and that’s not professional so you don’t, you know, you’re just a reading room. I was getting a lot of description work out of the regions in terms of NARS A-1. You know input for NARS A-1 inventories, but they were routine stuff, repetitive stuff. Like in RG 21 where everybody has the same kind of records but they were turning out a lot of stuff. Most of which got trashed eventually. When NARS A-1 got trashed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you think that the regions were actually collecting lots of regional permanent records?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.041721757211512, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why would you think that that would be the case?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well there were some people who didn’t believe in the Regional Archives at all. And some people who thought we shouldn’t be sending records to the regions but we ought to be keeping them all in Washington. And people that were of the opinion that the only thing they have worthwhile is microfilm and that’s not professional so you don’t, you know, you’re just a reading room. I was getting a lot of description work out of the regions in terms of NARS A-1. You know input for NARS A-1 inventories, but they were routine stuff, repetitive stuff. Like in RG 21 where everybody has the same kind of records but they were turning out a lot of stuff. Most of which got trashed eventually. When NARS A-1 got trashed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you think that the regions were actually collecting lots of regional permanent records?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well they weren’t getting as many permanent records, the big fight was over sending records from Washington to the regions. And there were space problems. You know this is before Archives II, this is before Archives II was really even much of a dream. And it was clear that if we didn’t get another building in Washington more things had to go to the regions because there just wasn’t room in Washington in the National Archives Building. At one point we moved records to the Lansburgh Department Store but that didn’t work out very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was in downtown DC?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 28.93524639690168, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well there were some people who didn’t believe in the Regional Archives at all. And some people who thought we shouldn’t be sending records to the regions but we ought to be keeping them all in Washington. And people that were of the opinion that the only thing they have worthwhile is microfilm and that’s not professional so you don’t, you know, you’re just a reading room. I was getting a lot of description work out of the regions in terms of NARS A-1. You know input for NARS A-1 inventories, but they were routine stuff, repetitive stuff. Like in RG 21 where everybody has the same kind of records but they were turning out a lot of stuff. Most of which got trashed eventually. When NARS A-1 got trashed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you think that the regions were actually collecting lots of regional permanent records?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well they weren’t getting as many permanent records, the big fight was over sending records from Washington to the regions. And there were space problems. You know this is before Archives II, this is before Archives II was really even much of a dream. And it was clear that if we didn’t get another building in Washington more things had to go to the regions because there just wasn’t room in Washington in the National Archives Building. At one point we moved records to the Lansburgh Department Store but that didn’t work out very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was in downtown DC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was a part of it, I gather, a big part of it was financial."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.928051552112976, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well they weren’t getting as many permanent records, the big fight was over sending records from Washington to the regions. And there were space problems. You know this is before Archives II, this is before Archives II was really even much of a dream. And it was clear that if we didn’t get another building in Washington more things had to go to the regions because there just wasn’t room in Washington in the National Archives Building. At one point we moved records to the Lansburgh Department Store but that didn’t work out very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was in downtown DC?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was a part of it, I gather, a big part of it was financial."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was talk even in the 70’s about another building and where to put another building and the dream at one time was to build across Pennsylvania Avenue from the Archives. Basically in the block where the Navy Memorial and stuff is between 7th and 9th and between D Street and say F Street. Apparently there had been talk back in the 50’s or 60’s about building on the other side of Independence Avenue where the skating rink is. That was not doable from an engineering standpoint. So there was talk about building across Pennsylvania Avenue which would have been next door or across the street from the FBI Building. And from what the GSA people who worked on the FBI Building said that probably would have been an engineering nightmare also. It was a water problem. The Archives Building is built on a creek. Did you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I didn’t."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.920057280125526, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was a part of it, I gather, a big part of it was financial."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was talk even in the 70’s about another building and where to put another building and the dream at one time was to build across Pennsylvania Avenue from the Archives. Basically in the block where the Navy Memorial and stuff is between 7th and 9th and between D Street and say F Street. Apparently there had been talk back in the 50’s or 60’s about building on the other side of Independence Avenue where the skating rink is. That was not doable from an engineering standpoint. So there was talk about building across Pennsylvania Avenue which would have been next door or across the street from the FBI Building. And from what the GSA people who worked on the FBI Building said that probably would have been an engineering nightmare also. It was a water problem. The Archives Building is built on a creek. Did you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I didn’t."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s built on Tiber Creek. And in some ways it floats on a huge saucer. And one of the GSA people told me when they build the FBI Building, they had to get 5 floors built before they stopped pumping water out of the basement. You know there are sub basements and apparently it kept popping up or wanting to pop up because of the water table. And almost to the top floor before they had enough weight to hold it in without pumping water out. The Federal Triangle is basically a swamp."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Chuckling]. Nice to know."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 22.13339697791725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was talk even in the 70’s about another building and where to put another building and the dream at one time was to build across Pennsylvania Avenue from the Archives. Basically in the block where the Navy Memorial and stuff is between 7th and 9th and between D Street and say F Street. Apparently there had been talk back in the 50’s or 60’s about building on the other side of Independence Avenue where the skating rink is. That was not doable from an engineering standpoint. So there was talk about building across Pennsylvania Avenue which would have been next door or across the street from the FBI Building. And from what the GSA people who worked on the FBI Building said that probably would have been an engineering nightmare also. It was a water problem. The Archives Building is built on a creek. Did you know that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I didn’t."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s built on Tiber Creek. And in some ways it floats on a huge saucer. And one of the GSA people told me when they build the FBI Building, they had to get 5 floors built before they stopped pumping water out of the basement. You know there are sub basements and apparently it kept popping up or wanting to pop up because of the water table. And almost to the top floor before they had enough weight to hold it in without pumping water out. The Federal Triangle is basically a swamp."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Chuckling]. Nice to know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it’s been flooded, too. The fancy theater they built after I retired where the moat was and stuff that flooded after—you know I haven’t been in the building since it flooded but it flooded at some point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can talk about the Regional Archives a little bit more here if you like before we either move onto the next one or maybe break for the day?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.1482188643525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s built on Tiber Creek. And in some ways it floats on a huge saucer. And one of the GSA people told me when they build the FBI Building, they had to get 5 floors built before they stopped pumping water out of the basement. You know there are sub basements and apparently it kept popping up or wanting to pop up because of the water table. And almost to the top floor before they had enough weight to hold it in without pumping water out. The Federal Triangle is basically a swamp."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Chuckling]. Nice to know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it’s been flooded, too. The fancy theater they built after I retired where the moat was and stuff that flooded after—you know I haven’t been in the building since it flooded but it flooded at some point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can talk about the Regional Archives a little bit more here if you like before we either move onto the next one or maybe break for the day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s continue up until the time I came back from the Federal Executive Institute and then go onto the Regional Archives. So this at the end of the ‘79-’80 period. At that point the GSA decided that they took the Office of Records Management away from the Archives. So the Office of Records Management that had been part of what came out of the Federal Records Act, that’s another discussion I guess, but the Records Management Program was transferred out of the Archives to somewhere else in GSA. And Jack Landers became the Office head ‘cause Forrest Williams retired. At that time there was also a major RIF and I think 17% of the Archives staff got cut. And they tried to get rid of me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "May I ask who they are?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 22.386909849280556, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well it’s been flooded, too. The fancy theater they built after I retired where the moat was and stuff that flooded after—you know I haven’t been in the building since it flooded but it flooded at some point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can talk about the Regional Archives a little bit more here if you like before we either move onto the next one or maybe break for the day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let’s continue up until the time I came back from the Federal Executive Institute and then go onto the Regional Archives. So this at the end of the ‘79-’80 period. At that point the GSA decided that they took the Office of Records Management away from the Archives. So the Office of Records Management that had been part of what came out of the Federal Records Act, that’s another discussion I guess, but the Records Management Program was transferred out of the Archives to somewhere else in GSA. And Jack Landers became the Office head ‘cause Forrest Williams retired. At that time there was also a major RIF and I think 17% of the Archives staff got cut. And they tried to get rid of me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "May I ask who they are?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe in another interview."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Don't say anything that you don’t—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.11510267391023, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Well I still have Claudine Weiher’s knives in my back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Chuckling]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know I… I don't want to talk about that now, maybe in a later call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway I got a RIF letter and they concluded that I was not qualified to bump anybody in the program analysis, management analyst, or archivist series. So they were going to send me either out on the street or somewhere else in GSA. Because they had reassigned me to be the Deputy Assistant Archivist for Records Management without telling me. I only found that out when somebody in Personnel snuck me the paperwork. And then they abolished that job after they put me in it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was done, in your opinion, purposely."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 30.127891859900256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know I… I don't want to talk about that now, maybe in a later call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway I got a RIF letter and they concluded that I was not qualified to bump anybody in the program analysis, management analyst, or archivist series. So they were going to send me either out on the street or somewhere else in GSA. Because they had reassigned me to be the Deputy Assistant Archivist for Records Management without telling me. I only found that out when somebody in Personnel snuck me the paperwork. And then they abolished that job after they put me in it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that was done, in your opinion, purposely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And it turns out or it turned out that I had more friends in the Administrator's Office than the Archivist or Claudine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So can you say who saved your job?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.39245908629661, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And it turns out or it turned out that I had more friends in the Administrator's Office than the Archivist or Claudine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So can you say who saved your job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jerry Fox. Jerry Fox was an Assistant to the Administrator or Assistant to the Deputy Administrator. And two people on his immediate staff at the time where John Hawsell who had worked for me in the ‘74 to ‘79 period and later became the Chief of the Archives Budget Branch but he was in GSA by then. And Peggy Neustadt or Margaret Neustadt. I guess she’s been a GSA Management Intern but she spent half a year working for me. They took my case to Jerry Fox who was on the Administrator’s staff and I’m not sure what happened but Claudine called me and said, okay, they were going to take care of me and don’t think Jerry Fox told her what to do. [Laughing]. And I said oh? [Laughter] So they assigned me to Special Assistant or Executive Assistant to the Assistant Archivist for the National Archives and gave me a desk and a secretary without a telephone. 15W1 I think it was. And I sat there probably for a year and a half until they sent me to the Federal Executive Institute. When I came back from the Federal Executive Institute I guess the view of my value had changed. I ended up in Room 100 where the Assistant Archivist for the National Archives had the 100 Suite, and 100 and I think the Assistant Archivist was in the other room. But then when I came back from Charlottesville on the 9th Street side, there was a partition. I don’t know if there still is. Dick Jacobs was on one side of it and they put me on the other side of it. Dick was starting to work on independence stuff. And so Dick kept giving me stuff to do and then we can quit there and I’ll talk about independence later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And that takes us up to 1980."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That takes us up to about 1982, spring of 1982."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So would you like to begin there?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.472171711477298, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That takes us up to about 1982, spring of 1982."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So would you like to begin there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably mid April or a little later. I think my son’s birthday was when I was in Charlottesville. So probably late April, early May 1982. Now you want to talk more about the regions before we quit and come back to independence next time?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. We’ll begin in spring of 1982 the next time and we’ll talk about the regions at this point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. What do you want to know about the regions? [Laughing]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I want to know is it began in 1969, and that was born out of exactly what documents? Did you help to create? And what were the reasons for the Regional Archives in ‘69? Can you take us up to maybe the funding in the regions and its importance?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.85796856830811, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably mid April or a little later. I think my son’s birthday was when I was in Charlottesville. So probably late April, early May 1982. Now you want to talk more about the regions before we quit and come back to independence next time?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. We’ll begin in spring of 1982 the next time and we’ll talk about the regions at this point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. What do you want to know about the regions? [Laughing]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What I want to know is it began in 1969, and that was born out of exactly what documents? Did you help to create? And what were the reasons for the Regional Archives in ‘69? Can you take us up to maybe the funding in the regions and its importance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like I said I think you can find the idea for the Regional Archives Program on page 6 of the Seventh Annual Report of the Archivist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And that is in the records as John’s told me."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 29.45428218309643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like I said I think you can find the idea for the Regional Archives Program on page 6 of the Seventh Annual Report of the Archivist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And that is in the records as John’s told me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well that’s one of the things I told you to get."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don’t have a copy of that on my screen in front of me so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, what they said in that document just for the record was that records in the regions were worth as much as the records in DC so it gave an importance to the regions as having records, as many records as in the DC area."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 30.50475798121826, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well that’s one of the things I told you to get."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don’t have a copy of that on my screen in front of me so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, what they said in that document just for the record was that records in the regions were worth as much as the records in DC so it gave an importance to the regions as having records, as many records as in the DC area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The one thing that I didn’t talk about and I don’t know a whole lot about, the WPA Historical Records Survey had its offices in the National Archives Building during the Depression. And so the people that were running the Archives in 1939 to the beginning of the war period were probably pretty familiar with what records were scattered around the country that ought to be kept permanently either in the National Archives or somewhere else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I’m assuming that those WPA Records stayed in that building when they left."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 23.894175534686955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I don’t have a copy of that on my screen in front of me so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, what they said in that document just for the record was that records in the regions were worth as much as the records in DC so it gave an importance to the regions as having records, as many records as in the DC area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The one thing that I didn’t talk about and I don’t know a whole lot about, the WPA Historical Records Survey had its offices in the National Archives Building during the Depression. And so the people that were running the Archives in 1939 to the beginning of the war period were probably pretty familiar with what records were scattered around the country that ought to be kept permanently either in the National Archives or somewhere else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I’m assuming that those WPA Records stayed in that building when they left."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I never got into the WPA Records really. But you know when I was in RG64 I kept finding references to it. But you know it’s probably been 43 years since I went through RG 64, so. Maybe you should have done this 25 years ago [Laughing]. Anyway, the issue came up from time to time in the records after that. And I think the original setup of the Records Centers long before my time in the 50’s, I think the original people in the Records Centers were archive oriented in some ways than the later ones. For example the first Records Center head in San Francisco was Philip Brooks who had been in the Archives from the beginning and then after he left San Francisco he went to Independence to be the Truman Library head. And his father got a Congressman, he’d been his father’s secretary when his father was a Congressman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what you’re saying is the Federal Records Centers had a basis in archival studies."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 22.104639482985505, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The one thing that I didn’t talk about and I don’t know a whole lot about, the WPA Historical Records Survey had its offices in the National Archives Building during the Depression. And so the people that were running the Archives in 1939 to the beginning of the war period were probably pretty familiar with what records were scattered around the country that ought to be kept permanently either in the National Archives or somewhere else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I’m assuming that those WPA Records stayed in that building when they left."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I never got into the WPA Records really. But you know when I was in RG64 I kept finding references to it. But you know it’s probably been 43 years since I went through RG 64, so. Maybe you should have done this 25 years ago [Laughing]. Anyway, the issue came up from time to time in the records after that. And I think the original setup of the Records Centers long before my time in the 50’s, I think the original people in the Records Centers were archive oriented in some ways than the later ones. For example the first Records Center head in San Francisco was Philip Brooks who had been in the Archives from the beginning and then after he left San Francisco he went to Independence to be the Truman Library head. And his father got a Congressman, he’d been his father’s secretary when his father was a Congressman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what you’re saying is the Federal Records Centers had a basis in archival studies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them at least. Well but the whole Records Management Program was that way because the Records Management Program as it really got started was Herb Angel in charge and Ed Aldridge was his Deputy. Both of them had worked for the Archives before World War II and both of them were involved in the Navy Records Program during the war. And Grover and Bahmer were involved in the Army Records Program during the war. Sherrod East, who was my Assistant Archivist when I was in Military Archives, had been one of the equivalents of the Museum on the records side. You know, I went around trying to find the records at the end of the war."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they’re all based in archival—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 23.585974670352474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of them at least. Well but the whole Records Management Program was that way because the Records Management Program as it really got started was Herb Angel in charge and Ed Aldridge was his Deputy. Both of them had worked for the Archives before World War II and both of them were involved in the Navy Records Program during the war. And Grover and Bahmer were involved in the Army Records Program during the war. Sherrod East, who was my Assistant Archivist when I was in Military Archives, had been one of the equivalents of the Museum on the records side. You know, I went around trying to find the records at the end of the war."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they’re all based in archival—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Yeah, and he had worked at the Archives before the war. So the Military Records Management Programs during the war were pretty much founded and run by people from the National Archives many of whom came back to the National Archives after the war. But there was Brooks or somebody drafted a bill in the mid 40’s that was very similar to what became the Federal Records Act of 1950. That’s a different conversation though I guess. Getting back to the regions. The kinds of people that were running the Records Management Program at the beginning had a foundation in the Archives and an understanding of you know that they’re permanent records in the Archives. You know? Now that never got translated into an organization or any formal accessioning or anything until I did the study in ‘68 and ‘69. There was an understanding that there were probably what should be archives in the Records Centers all along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was a basic understanding. You know I’m sure that there were those that disagreed with that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but that’s pretty much during the time period before my time so, you know… I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the regions were created and ‘69 was upon us and what was the decision of each of the regional facilities. Why in Boston or why in Fort Worth or why in Atlanta?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.488857617719102, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but that’s pretty much during the time period before my time so, you know… I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the regions were created and ‘69 was upon us and what was the decision of each of the regional facilities. Why in Boston or why in Fort Worth or why in Atlanta?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the plan was to put one in each Records Center. Or each of the regular Regional Federal Records Centers. Not St. Louis but not Suitland but Suitland already had an Archives Branch. But one in each Regional Records Center and Dan Goggin was going to be the Coordinator in the Central Office and these people were going to be Branch Chiefs within the Records Centers so there would be an Accession and Disposal Branch Chief in the Records Center and a Reference Branch Chief and an Archives Branch Chief in each Records Center. And at the time they worked for the Center Director who worked for the Regional Commissioner who worked for the Regional Administrator. They were supposed to get technical advice or supervision from Dan Goggin who was the first Regional Archives Coordinator who went onto something else and was replaced by Charles South but the time I became responsible for it again in 1974."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But was there a Record Management present in all of these regional facilities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Each region had a Records Management Division. Only in a couple of cases were they located in the same building as the Records Center. In San Francisco, for example, there was a Regional Commissioner, downtown San Francisco; and a Records Management Division that sat in the same suite of offices; but the Records Center in San Rio was physically separate. And that was the same situation in almost all the regions. I think Seattle may have had the Records Management Division in the Records Center at one time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did Records Management work with Archives? And vice versa?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.654286241910114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the plan was to put one in each Records Center. Or each of the regular Regional Federal Records Centers. Not St. Louis but not Suitland but Suitland already had an Archives Branch. But one in each Regional Records Center and Dan Goggin was going to be the Coordinator in the Central Office and these people were going to be Branch Chiefs within the Records Centers so there would be an Accession and Disposal Branch Chief in the Records Center and a Reference Branch Chief and an Archives Branch Chief in each Records Center. And at the time they worked for the Center Director who worked for the Regional Commissioner who worked for the Regional Administrator. They were supposed to get technical advice or supervision from Dan Goggin who was the first Regional Archives Coordinator who went onto something else and was replaced by Charles South but the time I became responsible for it again in 1974."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But was there a Record Management present in all of these regional facilities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Each region had a Records Management Division. Only in a couple of cases were they located in the same building as the Records Center. In San Francisco, for example, there was a Regional Commissioner, downtown San Francisco; and a Records Management Division that sat in the same suite of offices; but the Records Center in San Rio was physically separate. And that was the same situation in almost all the regions. I think Seattle may have had the Records Management Division in the Records Center at one time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did Records Management work with Archives? And vice versa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Because it would seem a natural fit to work with one another to secure records into the Archives."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.72698471323346, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Each region had a Records Management Division. Only in a couple of cases were they located in the same building as the Records Center. In San Francisco, for example, there was a Regional Commissioner, downtown San Francisco; and a Records Management Division that sat in the same suite of offices; but the Records Center in San Rio was physically separate. And that was the same situation in almost all the regions. I think Seattle may have had the Records Management Division in the Records Center at one time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did Records Management work with Archives? And vice versa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Because it would seem a natural fit to work with one another to secure records into the Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Records Management Divisions basically were going and encouraging… well that’s hard to say. The only direct contact I had with Regional Records Management people was the 1979-80 period when all they were doing was management consulting work in effect. And not much of the kind of training they had done previously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that there was any animosity between the Archives moving in in ‘69 and the Federal Records Centers?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 21.918871903592734, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Generally no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Because it would seem a natural fit to work with one another to secure records into the Archives."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Records Management Divisions basically were going and encouraging… well that’s hard to say. The only direct contact I had with Regional Records Management people was the 1979-80 period when all they were doing was management consulting work in effect. And not much of the kind of training they had done previously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that there was any animosity between the Archives moving in in ‘69 and the Federal Records Centers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Thoughtful pause]. I need to think about that. Yeah, that was during a period when I had contact with the Regional Commissioners more than the Center Directors. Because one of the things I did in that time period from ‘68 to ‘74 was whenever they’d have a meeting of the Regional Commissioners, you know when the Archives would get the Regional Commissioners together for a meeting, I would be the sort of the staff secretary. And so I dealt with the Regional Commissioners but I didn’t really deal with the Center Directors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Where were the differences between a Center Director, that would be the Federal Records Center Director, and what would be considered a Regional Administrator types for the regions?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.243191003991925, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Records Management Divisions basically were going and encouraging… well that’s hard to say. The only direct contact I had with Regional Records Management people was the 1979-80 period when all they were doing was management consulting work in effect. And not much of the kind of training they had done previously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that there was any animosity between the Archives moving in in ‘69 and the Federal Records Centers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Thoughtful pause]. I need to think about that. Yeah, that was during a period when I had contact with the Regional Commissioners more than the Center Directors. Because one of the things I did in that time period from ‘68 to ‘74 was whenever they’d have a meeting of the Regional Commissioners, you know when the Archives would get the Regional Commissioners together for a meeting, I would be the sort of the staff secretary. And so I dealt with the Regional Commissioners but I didn’t really deal with the Center Directors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Where were the differences between a Center Director, that would be the Federal Records Center Director, and what would be considered a Regional Administrator types for the regions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a NARS Regional Commissioner. And then there was a Records Management Division and a Federal Records Center. And in most cases there wasn’t a whole lot of contact, I don’t think, between the Records Management Divisions and the Records Centers but I couldn’t swear to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know in one of the interviews I had done in the interview I had done with Jim Owens he said that he didn’t have contact with the Record Management staff and there were three individuals, and they were located within Boston per se so kind of—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.714656671102137, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Thoughtful pause]. I need to think about that. Yeah, that was during a period when I had contact with the Regional Commissioners more than the Center Directors. Because one of the things I did in that time period from ‘68 to ‘74 was whenever they’d have a meeting of the Regional Commissioners, you know when the Archives would get the Regional Commissioners together for a meeting, I would be the sort of the staff secretary. And so I dealt with the Regional Commissioners but I didn’t really deal with the Center Directors."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Where were the differences between a Center Director, that would be the Federal Records Center Director, and what would be considered a Regional Administrator types for the regions?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a NARS Regional Commissioner. And then there was a Records Management Division and a Federal Records Center. And in most cases there wasn’t a whole lot of contact, I don’t think, between the Records Management Divisions and the Records Centers but I couldn’t swear to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know in one of the interviews I had done in the interview I had done with Jim Owens he said that he didn’t have contact with the Record Management staff and there were three individuals, and they were located within Boston per se so kind of—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Well Jim would know better how that worked on a day to day basis than I would. And you ought to find, if you can track down some of his colleagues, it would be interesting to see what they told you. Have you talked to any of the other former Regional Archives people?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, they were recently identified with the photographs that Jim had given me and your input and some other individuals in the National Archives. I’ve identified some of them. Some of them I know I’m going—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.620072602587907, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Sue Karren I think is the last Regional Archives person I had physical contact with and that was probably a dozen years ago. I was in Seattle visiting a cousin who was doing genealogical research and was afraid to go to the Archives’'cause she didn’t know what to do so I called up Sue and took her over and introduced her and gave her a tour."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Chuckling]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that’s the last Regional Archive facility I was in and like I said it’s probably been a dozen years. Except I was in St. Louis last year but…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] And Alaska wasn't in Archives back then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Alaska 1990."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "1990. Okay. Okay. Is there anything you’d like to mention, John, before about the Regional Archives, I can’t think of anything else."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.466747336208787, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that’s the last Regional Archive facility I was in and like I said it’s probably been a dozen years. Except I was in St. Louis last year but…"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Interposing] And Alaska wasn't in Archives back then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Alaska 1990."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "1990. Okay. Okay. Is there anything you’d like to mention, John, before about the Regional Archives, I can’t think of anything else."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I’ve got a lot more to say about it but let’s do that when we get to the second round in the Regional Archive before the ‘92 period."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We’ll pick that up in the spring of 1982."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.407497040231986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Alaska 1990."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "1990. Okay. Okay. Is there anything you’d like to mention, John, before about the Regional Archives, I can’t think of anything else."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I’ve got a lot more to say about it but let’s do that when we get to the second round in the Regional Archive before the ‘92 period."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We’ll pick that up in the spring of 1982."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now let me look at a couple of things and see if there’s… there were a couple of things I thought of but I didn’t write down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well we can revisit that too with our next interview."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.45277448914665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I’ve got a lot more to say about it but let’s do that when we get to the second round in the Regional Archive before the ‘92 period."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We’ll pick that up in the spring of 1982."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now let me look at a couple of things and see if there’s… there were a couple of things I thought of but I didn’t write down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well we can revisit that too with our next interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. I'm trying to think of-do you have a quick list of who you’re talking to or shouldn’t I ask you that or?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can send that to you."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.614193876829612, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now let me look at a couple of things and see if there’s… there were a couple of things I thought of but I didn’t write down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well we can revisit that too with our next interview."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. I'm trying to think of-do you have a quick list of who you’re talking to or shouldn’t I ask you that or?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can send that to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "See if anybody occurs to me that you don’t have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I’ll get that list out to you, a list of both the people that we do have and the ones that I have on my wish list."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.793548752032901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hmm. I'm trying to think of-do you have a quick list of who you’re talking to or shouldn’t I ask you that or?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can send that to you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "See if anybody occurs to me that you don’t have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I’ll get that list out to you, a list of both the people that we do have and the ones that I have on my wish list."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, I was surprised to see the thing you sent me from Judy Koucky. I never had a whole lot of contact with her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a lot of people actually in the National Archives that speak very highly of you. My colleague Marvin Kabakoff retired recently and I had done an oral history for him and he’d been around since I think somewhere in the 1970’s and Marvin said that he had limited dealings with you and knew a lot about you and it was all very positive."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.770609724481002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "See if anybody occurs to me that you don’t have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I’ll get that list out to you, a list of both the people that we do have and the ones that I have on my wish list."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, I was surprised to see the thing you sent me from Judy Koucky. I never had a whole lot of contact with her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a lot of people actually in the National Archives that speak very highly of you. My colleague Marvin Kabakoff retired recently and I had done an oral history for him and he’d been around since I think somewhere in the 1970’s and Marvin said that he had limited dealings with you and knew a lot about you and it was all very positive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well… I wish the management thought as kindly of me as some of the people did. Well I had a good relationship with limited time but good relationship with Bahmer when he was Archivist and with Bert Rhoads when he was Archivist. I don’t think O’Neill wanted to get rid of me. Bob Warner was very cool to me but warmed up at the end. Frank Burke—he was Acting for a while and then on opposite sides of numerous issues over the years but he treated me very well when he was Acting Archivist. Even though we’d been opposed to each other on a lot of things. Trudy and I were never friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. It seems like she had a different idea of the Regional Archives than you did."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.745121916090001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay, I was surprised to see the thing you sent me from Judy Koucky. I never had a whole lot of contact with her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There’s a lot of people actually in the National Archives that speak very highly of you. My colleague Marvin Kabakoff retired recently and I had done an oral history for him and he’d been around since I think somewhere in the 1970’s and Marvin said that he had limited dealings with you and knew a lot about you and it was all very positive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well… I wish the management thought as kindly of me as some of the people did. Well I had a good relationship with limited time but good relationship with Bahmer when he was Archivist and with Bert Rhoads when he was Archivist. I don’t think O’Neill wanted to get rid of me. Bob Warner was very cool to me but warmed up at the end. Frank Burke—he was Acting for a while and then on opposite sides of numerous issues over the years but he treated me very well when he was Acting Archivist. Even though we’d been opposed to each other on a lot of things. Trudy and I were never friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. It seems like she had a different idea of the Regional Archives than you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ah. I think Trudy and the Carlins and other people had a different idea. Right. If you can’t find the Manifesto then I’ll go into my philosophy on the Regional Archives at length but not until we do the second round."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I know Meg was on vacation and she said she’s still looking for it but she didn’t know if she could find it."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.827913240100001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well… I wish the management thought as kindly of me as some of the people did. Well I had a good relationship with limited time but good relationship with Bahmer when he was Archivist and with Bert Rhoads when he was Archivist. I don’t think O’Neill wanted to get rid of me. Bob Warner was very cool to me but warmed up at the end. Frank Burke—he was Acting for a while and then on opposite sides of numerous issues over the years but he treated me very well when he was Acting Archivist. Even though we’d been opposed to each other on a lot of things. Trudy and I were never friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. It seems like she had a different idea of the Regional Archives than you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ah. I think Trudy and the Carlins and other people had a different idea. Right. If you can’t find the Manifesto then I’ll go into my philosophy on the Regional Archives at length but not until we do the second round."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I know Meg was on vacation and she said she’s still looking for it but she didn’t know if she could find it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, if she doesn't have it, Sue might. I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I'll reach out to Sue again and see. By the way, I won't be because I won't be in DC but John Carlin and his wife will be coming in for an interview on July 13 at Archives I and I believe Jessie is going to be interviewing."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.808792489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ah. I think Trudy and the Carlins and other people had a different idea. Right. If you can’t find the Manifesto then I’ll go into my philosophy on the Regional Archives at length but not until we do the second round."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I know Meg was on vacation and she said she’s still looking for it but she didn’t know if she could find it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, if she doesn't have it, Sue might. I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I'll reach out to Sue again and see. By the way, I won't be because I won't be in DC but John Carlin and his wife will be coming in for an interview on July 13 at Archives I and I believe Jessie is going to be interviewing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you see the citation I sent you for the Washington Post on December 19, 1997?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. [Chuckling] Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1104900000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the Archivist and all the office heads and the budget people and Steve Hannestad and I facilitated it about what to do about reimbursable services for Records Centers especially with regard to the courts. And a lot of decisions got made in that meeting. But in the middle of that meeting Carlin got called out by his secretary and he came back and Lew went out, Lew Bellardo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when they came back, the whole tone of the meeting just froze. And we later found out that what happened when they were called out was for the Post reporter to tell them what she was going to write."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there had been a lot of gossip about the triangle for a long time. And all the people currently employed in the Archives, if you want somebody to tell you about that, Debra Wall is the person who knows ‘cause she was, I think, she was to some extent Lynn’s confidant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know how much of that wants to be on the record."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.4561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when they came back, the whole tone of the meeting just froze. And we later found out that what happened when they were called out was for the Post reporter to tell them what she was going to write."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there had been a lot of gossip about the triangle for a long time. And all the people currently employed in the Archives, if you want somebody to tell you about that, Debra Wall is the person who knows ‘cause she was, I think, she was to some extent Lynn’s confidant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know how much of that wants to be on the record."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughing] Well I don’t think you want that one on the record."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deb is a very much more effervescent and I think she has a much more positive outlook. I don’t know if she wants to get into that. [Laughing].\n\nThat’s very funny. Yeah. Carlin gave me a list of people, Lew Bellardo was on there. Ren Cahoon. Tom Mayer and a few others that I should interview. Lew Bellardo hasn’t responded to three emails that I sent so I don’t know."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.729, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there had been a lot of gossip about the triangle for a long time. And all the people currently employed in the Archives, if you want somebody to tell you about that, Debra Wall is the person who knows ‘cause she was, I think, she was to some extent Lynn’s confidant."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know how much of that wants to be on the record."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughing] Well I don’t think you want that one on the record."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deb is a very much more effervescent and I think she has a much more positive outlook. I don’t know if she wants to get into that. [Laughing].\n\nThat’s very funny. Yeah. Carlin gave me a list of people, Lew Bellardo was on there. Ren Cahoon. Tom Mayer and a few others that I should interview. Lew Bellardo hasn’t responded to three emails that I sent so I don’t know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is Michael Kurtz on your list?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had an interview, I believe, I didn’t do it but he was interviewed."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughing] Well I don’t think you want that one on the record."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deb is a very much more effervescent and I think she has a much more positive outlook. I don’t know if she wants to get into that. [Laughing].\n\nThat’s very funny. Yeah. Carlin gave me a list of people, Lew Bellardo was on there. Ren Cahoon. Tom Mayer and a few others that I should interview. Lew Bellardo hasn’t responded to three emails that I sent so I don’t know."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is Michael Kurtz on your list?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had an interview, I believe, I didn’t do it but he was interviewed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I told you Frosty Williams was probably my worst boss. I think probably like Kurtz is next to the worst."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really? Yeah. I hear good and bad things about Kurtz."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Is Michael Kurtz on your list?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He had an interview, I believe, I didn’t do it but he was interviewed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I told you Frosty Williams was probably my worst boss. I think probably like Kurtz is next to the worst."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really? Yeah. I hear good and bad things about Kurtz."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I also have a Kurtz knife in my back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve got a lot of knives in your back."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I told you Frosty Williams was probably my worst boss. I think probably like Kurtz is next to the worst."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really? Yeah. I hear good and bad things about Kurtz."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I also have a Kurtz knife in my back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve got a lot of knives in your back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughing]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I don’t view that and this is just my opinion, I don’t view that as a bad thing. I mean it may have ended up being a bad thing that happened to you but I think it's kind of a badge of honor to be able to not be beloved by your superiors and be well liked by your peers. And I think that that’s pretty important."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I also have a Kurtz knife in my back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve got a lot of knives in your back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Laughing]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But I don’t view that and this is just my opinion, I don’t view that as a bad thing. I mean it may have ended up being a bad thing that happened to you but I think it's kind of a badge of honor to be able to not be beloved by your superiors and be well liked by your peers. And I think that that’s pretty important."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I think I had a management vision that differs from many of the people who’ve been my bosses over the years. And we can talk about that more when we talk about the second Archives period but I haven’t really paid any attention to the Archives or how it’s managed for the last decade because I don't think it’s going in the direction I think it should have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well there’s a big concern that the Regional Archives are being eliminated eventually. And it’s unfortunate but that seems to be how they’re viewing it and the people in the regions are worried about that. And why do I say that? Well it seems like outreach has dissipated at some of the regions to a point where they’re told not to perform any more outreach programs and things like that seem to be a big issue."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I think I had a management vision that differs from many of the people who’ve been my bosses over the years. And we can talk about that more when we talk about the second Archives period but I haven’t really paid any attention to the Archives or how it’s managed for the last decade because I don't think it’s going in the direction I think it should have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well there’s a big concern that the Regional Archives are being eliminated eventually. And it’s unfortunate but that seems to be how they’re viewing it and the people in the regions are worried about that. And why do I say that? Well it seems like outreach has dissipated at some of the regions to a point where they’re told not to perform any more outreach programs and things like that seem to be a big issue."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we need to talk about outreach on my watch then. And we also need to talk about genealogists."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Genealogists vote, historians don’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very true. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00052:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If it weren’t for genealogists we’d still be in GSA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Historians were little help. Genealogists were great help and the Archives has turned its back on the genealogical community. That’s the next conversation though probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, send me a list of names and chew over what I sent you a little bit and then let’s not set another time yet but wait a day or two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And I’ll correspond and get that information to you. All right, thank you John."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00809:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 31.72307488018532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hello. I'm glad to greet everybody who is with us right now and watching us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Dr. Tsygankov, you have a Ph.D. in engineering. Can you tell us what universities you attended in Russia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I graduated from the Technological Institute in the city of Kiev. That's in Ukraine. Then I got my Ph.D. from the Moscow Aviation Institute, and my doctorate degree I got at the Kharkov Aviation Institute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What part of Russia did you live when you were growing up, and how was life in Russia then compared to now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born and grew up in the Soviet Union and Ukraine, in the city of Kiev, and that's the city where I grew up, and that's where I attended schools, and that's where I worked. I was the designer of the first welding unit tested in orbit, in the Scientific Institute of Paton. After that, they invited me to work for RSC [Rocket Space Corporation] Energia in Moscow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long have you worked at RSC Energia and what is your job title?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00809:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 33.02563875576146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I graduated from the Technological Institute in the city of Kiev. That's in Ukraine. Then I got my Ph.D. from the Moscow Aviation Institute, and my doctorate degree I got at the Kharkov Aviation Institute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What part of Russia did you live when you were growing up, and how was life in Russia then compared to now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born and grew up in the Soviet Union and Ukraine, in the city of Kiev, and that's the city where I grew up, and that's where I attended schools, and that's where I worked. I was the designer of the first welding unit tested in orbit, in the Scientific Institute of Paton. After that, they invited me to work for RSC [Rocket Space Corporation] Energia in Moscow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long have you worked at RSC Energia and what is your job title?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've worked for Energia since 1969. I'm the manager of the department which is responsible for the IVA [Intravehicular Activity] and EVA technical support."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does your organization write the maintenance procedures that they perform, and do they perform the training of the maintenance tasks for the crew?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00809:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 33.36182083973496, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born and grew up in the Soviet Union and Ukraine, in the city of Kiev, and that's the city where I grew up, and that's where I attended schools, and that's where I worked. I was the designer of the first welding unit tested in orbit, in the Scientific Institute of Paton. After that, they invited me to work for RSC [Rocket Space Corporation] Energia in Moscow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long have you worked at RSC Energia and what is your job title?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I've worked for Energia since 1969. I'm the manager of the department which is responsible for the IVA [Intravehicular Activity] and EVA technical support."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does your organization write the maintenance procedures that they perform, and do they perform the training of the maintenance tasks for the crew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is the direct responsibility of my department, of my office, to develop the checklist, the on-board communication maintenance activity on the EVA and IVA. We conduct all the training, both at Energia, the crew training, as well as different other organizations that we visit with the crew members, of course, at our facility as well as at the cosmonaut training facility. And by the way, the training on the tools for the EVA for the crew of Mr. Shepherd, they've already completed in our department."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us a little bit about the IVA and EVA tools on the Mir, the quantity, their stored location, the IVA workbench."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00809:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 12.6151, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's true."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much support does your group provide to the Russian MCC [Mission Control Center], the TsUP, during the Mir EVA maintenance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For each of the EVAs, in my office we have specialists, we have experts who were and are responsible for that particular operation, for that particular task, from the time of the development of that EVA through testing, through training and implementation of that EVA in space. That person is at all times at the MCC Moscow. He is one of those few guys who is allowed to directly communicate with the crew. Always my concern—I'm always worried so this guy won't get hurt or won't get sick, and get there in time, because otherwise I'm the guy who's sitting there and having direct communication with the crew members.\\n\\n Maybe you'll be surprised, but we try not to interfere with the crew operation, especially during the communication session. Sometimes there are too many people on the ground that would like to talk and would like to ask different questions, so we talk to them only when they ask us, only if he doesn't understand something or some situations, some surprises. Of course we help them, but we try to limit ourselves, not to interfere.\\n\\n There's a third crew member on board who is assigned to perform certain functions, so they can get help and assistance from us at any time, and if they're outside the range of visibility, they work by himself, but if there are any major surprises, any situations, they have the instructions not to do anything by themselves, wait till the next orbit, till the next radio session. That's how we organize all that. And, of course, prior to the EVA we discuss everything in great details with the crew members, and we conduct even on-board training with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'd like to ask him a couple of questions that aren't on the list."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us and the audience about your welding unit that you designed, that you mentioned earlier?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00809:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That's a restraint. I'm not the only author of this. There is one guy from Hong Kong here. So we together came up with this idea so whenever you need to write, you can move it here and write. You can try it, write, and fix it this way. Okay?\\n\\n Very high technology. High tech. It's one guy, that Chinese man from Hong Kong, helped me to install the ring on certain different tools."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The final question before we get kicked out of our room. Of your almost thirty years in the space program, what would be your greatest accomplishment or your most memorable moment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's not just an achievement; it's a bunch of achievements put together. Well, on a few occasions, yes, we managed to save Space Station Mir using our EVAs, using our tools. So I think that's an achievement as well. So, in the end I'd like to say the spacecrafts like Space Lab, Salyut, Mir, Shuttle maintenance and the EVA helped to repair, to save the program in general, but in principle, yes, you could do without it. The program would have been a little bit smaller program, fewer things to accomplish, but nothing drastic.\\n\\n But ISS, by its essence, by its concept, cannot be built, cannot be created, without the EVA. We will build it up in space. It's a lot like they now build ships. They put it on the water and then they start to build up. Same thing with the station. So there should be an entirely different approach to EVA and the maintenance and other issues. Otherwise, there won't be an International Space Station without it, the way it has been designed initially."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I agree.\n\nWhat's your favorite beer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Milk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.953053878685132, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The winter of 2013 is when I was accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I was originally supposed to go to. I got my assignment in May and I was scheduled to go to Kenya in September. And then five days before I was supposed to leave to go to Kenya, there was a terrorist attack on the mall in Nairobi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got a phone call that said you're still in the Peace Corps, but you're not going to Kenya."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Five days."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.589601650637826, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I picked to go to Guinea in November."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So tell me about, like you said, you grew up in Missouri."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.766224056264251, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So tell me about, like you said, you grew up in Missouri."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about growing up. Was there anything while you were young that you think might have made you want to go work internationally or where you even heard about the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.057066736128704, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about growing up. Was there anything while you were young that you think might have made you want to go work internationally or where you even heard about the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't tell you where I heard about. I have no idea. My older sister is a huge influence on my life. She's six years older than I am and she started, I think, before, before I decided to the Peace Corps, she was an international backpacking guide for students often from East Coast schools. But she would take them to different countries because she's an experienced backpacker and experience guiding. And I thought that it would be cool to go international. Yeah. So I think that that's the biggest influence. Also of note, my parents and my family moved a bunch before we stopped in Missouri. And so it's not that Missouri doesn't feel like home, but it's also like, it's not maybe doesn't have as strong of ties to keep me there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because we just moved all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So moving is kind of what you did."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.650699674232968, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because we just moved all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So moving is kind of what you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's kind of what we did. It's like a little deceiving to say that because I only moved once, because I was three. So I don't really feel that. But like our extended family isn't in Missouri, our like, there isn't. Like I have a long history there, but my siblings were all born in different states and my parents are from different states. So we just don't have that much that holds us there. And it just almost feels like traveling and wandering is like in our blood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Peace Corps sounded like a great option."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, perfect. So tell me about. You finally decided on November."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.167444082481074, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's kind of what we did. It's like a little deceiving to say that because I only moved once, because I was three. So I don't really feel that. But like our extended family isn't in Missouri, our like, there isn't. Like I have a long history there, but my siblings were all born in different states and my parents are from different states. So we just don't have that much that holds us there. And it just almost feels like traveling and wandering is like in our blood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Peace Corps sounded like a great option."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, perfect. So tell me about. You finally decided on November."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you got on a plane?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.852715647201194, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So Peace Corps sounded like a great option."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, perfect. So tell me about. You finally decided on November."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you got on a plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about training. What happened when you landed in country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.507135840994827, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Training days. So, like wake up in your host house and eat breakfast with your family and then just walk to the training center. And then there would be like topic specific and language classes. I think language classes were both morning and night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Night?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sorry, not night but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like afternoon?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Like twice a day. Um. And we all had to start in French first. And then if you got to a certain point in French you could like pass the French proficiency and then start learning local language for whatever region you were going to. But we didn't know what region we were in at first. It's just all focused on French. I did not speak French before I came. I had studied, in college I had taken a year of French, but like in a typical college fashion, like didn't really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't retain any of it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.033501038265218, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Like twice a day. Um. And we all had to start in French first. And then if you got to a certain point in French you could like pass the French proficiency and then start learning local language for whatever region you were going to. But we didn't know what region we were in at first. It's just all focused on French. I did not speak French before I came. I had studied, in college I had taken a year of French, but like in a typical college fashion, like didn't really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Didn't retain any of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I wasn't really forced to speak, like it was a lot of vocab. I think it was useful. I had a good idea of like sentence structure, but I still, it was still really hard to learn French. Yeah, I can remember my host mom one day, I think. I think our home coordinator was like coming in, doing site visits like in our, in our training village just to make sure that everything was like good. And I remember my host mom like miming that. She was, she was talking to the, to the coordinator and she was like miming breastfeeding and kept saying that I was like her daughter. Like she was breastfeeding me. I got, like the miming helped because I definitely understood what she was saying. But it was a very, I was like, this is, this is a very strange way to say that I am like your daughter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That you would offer me breast milk. Yeah, very funny. But she was great. I really liked her quite a bit. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you all in the same training village or did you have different training villages?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.917902516376811, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That you would offer me breast milk. Yeah, very funny. But she was great. I really liked her quite a bit. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you all in the same training village or did you have different training villages?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we all were in the same training village. So they did for our group, our agroforestry and health volunteers came in and I think we were a group of about 30 and we all had home sites in the same Dubreka training village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cool."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were a health volunteer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.370236647979166, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a health volunteer that then got merged to be a youth volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They said the placement coordinator had apparently requested Washington to send him five youth people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which he then thought was me, but I don't really think that it. Like, I thought I was a health volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a miscommunication somewhere."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.037329195036007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which he then thought was me, but I don't really think that it. Like, I thought I was a health volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a miscommunication somewhere."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there was. So also I was like reassigned too. Like I was reassigned to Guinea. So I was like, did you really? I don't know about this, but I just like had a lot of summer camp on my resume. So I think that that's what he zeroed in on and was like, oh, she's a youth volunteer, which was fine. I was jazzed to be a youth volunteer. It was a little bit trickier because there wasn't really a youth program anymore. Like this was the last of the, of the youth program, and they were just going to have health programs. So I didn't get so much youth specific training, but it was fine because I was doing health topics with the youth. So it was like, fine, I could have the health training and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So tell me about your site."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.15258799448445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there was. So also I was like reassigned too. Like I was reassigned to Guinea. So I was like, did you really? I don't know about this, but I just like had a lot of summer camp on my resume. So I think that that's what he zeroed in on and was like, oh, she's a youth volunteer, which was fine. I was jazzed to be a youth volunteer. It was a little bit trickier because there wasn't really a youth program anymore. Like this was the last of the, of the youth program, and they were just going to have health programs. So I didn't get so much youth specific training, but it was fine because I was doing health topics with the youth. So it was like, fine, I could have the health training and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So tell me about your site."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My site, Koundara, is up in the Boké region. The Boké region is the coastal region that also extends inland. So I didn't have any coast in mine and I was very north. I was kind of the farthest. Yeah, I was like the farthest north that they had gone. They had gradually worked their way back up there. It took 15 hours by taxi to get there from the capital. Uh, it's about, Guinea is about the size of Oregon and it takes 15 hours to get from the southern part to the northern part. And the roads are pretty terrible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say taxi?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.072137166645337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Bush taxi. So like an old Saab that's falling apart that. It was either called, you would get you would get a six plas or neuf plas, which would be six people or nine people. But it was like always like, like in the six plas, you could put nine people and like a bunch of goats on top and maybe someone's holding a baby and like chickens hanging out the window. Yeah, like the nine place taxi would be more like a station wagon. Everybody's super crammed in. And traveling in Guinea it seems like you need to take everything with you. So everyone has a ton of baggage. No, definitely not air conditioning. Windows down unless the driver had recently cleaned the inside of his car because then he didn't want the dust to come inside. So then he would want the windows up, which was miserable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were times that I would end up, because they stretched the six places to be much more, there were times that I would end up like straddling the stick shift."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the front seat, which was pretty uncomfortable given that then the driver would need to use the stick shift to change gears while you were driving. You're like, well, hmm. Okay. I guess this is what I'm doing. And they always wanted to put the white volunteers, the white people in the front. Our safety and security officer, who was great, she was Guinean, was always like, sit in the seat right behind the driver. It's the safest place if you were to get into an accident. But I would try and sit there and then the driver would like get more people into the taxi and then he would make me sit up front. So fine, I'll sit in front. Very frequently you were handed a baby to hold. Very dusty, very hot. And very dirty. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fun 15 hours."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.864385688128033, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just 15 hours."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bouncing around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Bouncing around. The roads are really terrible. At some point, it's like different parts of roads had been paved, but then the infrastructure to fix the potholes wasn't there. So like someone would have come in with great intentions to make this road super paved. But Guinea has a rainy season and like after a couple of rainy seasons and no repairs, then it's, it's almost like the asphalt is worse. Like you would have been better off having dirt roads and gravel roads. There were some times when you would encounter on the way, there are these kids, these entrepreneurial kids that would stand on the side of the road with like somewhat larger rocks. And right before a taxi came up, they would like put the rock in the hole. Like, look, we're repairing the pothole. And they would demand money. So the taxi drivers would pay them.\n\nBut I was talking to a taxi driver at some point and he was like, oh yeah, they just keep doing it with this same rock. Like, they're not like actually fixing anything. They just wait until a car comes and then they take the rock out that they just put in. Put the rock in. And if you don't pay them, then they throw the rocks at your car. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was very entrepreneurial."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is very entrepreneurial. I don't know if it's created a lot of social good, but the kids are getting some pennies to spend on something. Yeah. Yeah. Very cute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So tell me about your village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.938249791385509, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Triplex. So there was, there was three separate rooms. And each of them had two rooms. So I was on the corner and I had a front room and a back room and I had an indoor bathroom with a Western toilet, but there isn't running water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I really only peed in that toilet because otherwise you have to, you have to like use a bunch of water to flush the toilet. And I just used the family latrine because it was so much easier and less smelly since the room didn't have a door and was right next to my bed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So. But it was nice to be able to take a shower. There was like a drain so I could just take a shower in my house and not walk to the latrine to take a shower. So that was really nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say shower, like a bucket bath?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.93138865709501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I really only peed in that toilet because otherwise you have to, you have to like use a bunch of water to flush the toilet. And I just used the family latrine because it was so much easier and less smelly since the room didn't have a door and was right next to my bed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So. But it was nice to be able to take a shower. There was like a drain so I could just take a shower in my house and not walk to the latrine to take a shower. So that was really nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say shower, like a bucket bath?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean a bucket bath. There was a drain where I could take a bucket bath."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could dump water on your head."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.034876285661122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So. But it was nice to be able to take a shower. There was like a drain so I could just take a shower in my house and not walk to the latrine to take a shower. So that was really nice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you say shower, like a bucket bath?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean a bucket bath. There was a drain where I could take a bucket bath."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could dump water on your head."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could dump on myself and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not be standing in a bucket"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.23990863644529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Even strangers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, people just, because I stood out so much, like I would walk to the market and people would be eating. And it's really common even for, to talk to locals among locals, like if you're eating and you'd see someone or make eye contact with them, you say, invitation, which is just like, come eat with me, come share my food. And it's always genuine. Like you can always walk over and go eat some of the food. And like it gave people such pleasure for me to, like, walk over and eat a bite of their sauce and be like, wow, your sauce is really good. And so, you know, I just ate with whoever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So it sounds like you made a lot of friends."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.155454040494764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, people just, because I stood out so much, like I would walk to the market and people would be eating. And it's really common even for, to talk to locals among locals, like if you're eating and you'd see someone or make eye contact with them, you say, invitation, which is just like, come eat with me, come share my food. And it's always genuine. Like you can always walk over and go eat some of the food. And like it gave people such pleasure for me to, like, walk over and eat a bite of their sauce and be like, wow, your sauce is really good. And so, you know, I just ate with whoever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So it sounds like you made a lot of friends."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I did. Everyone was super welcoming. The children especially wanted to talk to the white girl in village. The word they would use is porto. Porto just means foreigner. It got, you know, like some days it's fine. Some days you're like, oh yeah, let's talk to the kids. But other days it's just exhausting. Or like after. And it wasn't just children either. And it feels very much like you're being called out for being an outsider. Although there was no malice ever, like no one was trying to wish me any harm when they. They really just wanted to talk to me or they wanted to do the exchange in the local language, like the greeting exchange. But some days it's just like, I just, I just want to walk to the market and buy bananas, and I don't want to talk to anyone and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Just sort of be invisible and fit in."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.648708691968842, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I did. Everyone was super welcoming. The children especially wanted to talk to the white girl in village. The word they would use is porto. Porto just means foreigner. It got, you know, like some days it's fine. Some days you're like, oh yeah, let's talk to the kids. But other days it's just exhausting. Or like after. And it wasn't just children either. And it feels very much like you're being called out for being an outsider. Although there was no malice ever, like no one was trying to wish me any harm when they. They really just wanted to talk to me or they wanted to do the exchange in the local language, like the greeting exchange. But some days it's just like, I just, I just want to walk to the market and buy bananas, and I don't want to talk to anyone and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Just sort of be invisible and fit in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yeah, I just want to be invisible. And you absolutely never can be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was sometimes hard. But if you could keep a good humor about it, it's a, it's a very sweet thing that everyone just wants to say hi and ask how you're doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So tell me about your work in your village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.27634299107649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And yeah, I just want to be invisible. And you absolutely never can be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was sometimes hard. But if you could keep a good humor about it, it's a, it's a very sweet thing that everyone just wants to say hi and ask how you're doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So tell me about your work in your village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your half health, half youth job."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 26.973714434529434, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was sometimes hard. But if you could keep a good humor about it, it's a, it's a very sweet thing that everyone just wants to say hi and ask how you're doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So tell me about your work in your village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your half health, half youth job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And so my counterpart worked for the Secoge, which is the, uh, it's an acronym, but it's the children's group, the national children's organization. And youth is defined as anyone under the age of 35. So that was our target audience, was anyone under the age of 35."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you had some youth who were older than you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 16, "return_to_go": 29.0956294546324, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was awesome. I really liked her a lot. I liked the doctor well enough too, but I really liked that nurse, so I would do that on Fridays. And then I feel like we usually left early on Fridays anyway too, just like walk around in the market and like go sit with people or buy something or, I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make friends."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right. Or like hang out with children. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cool."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get to travel any while you were in country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.626473791544583, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So he always wanted me to come to service. And when. And then he like was also like translating during the service too, because he was speaking in French to the regular parishioners."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was just you he was translating for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then for me, he would be like, and to our American sister, we welcome her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Woah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I was like, okay. I really don't want to be singled out. I also don't want to be at church right now. I don't want to go to church. And so the Nigerian barber then wanted me to come to church every week, and the Tanzanian pastor wanted me to come to church every week. And so I started going to the market and in Saréboido every Sunday so that I didn't have to go to church. And I just always said that, oh, I'm sorry, I have to do work with my other volunteer on Sunday in Saréboido. And they're like, on Sunday? You have to work on Sunday? And I'm like, yes, I have to work. She really needs my help. It's always just so I didn't have to run into the pastor and have him say, sister, we missed you. Yeah, yeah. It was good. Then I had a standing, a standing lunch date with my friend in the other village.\n\nAnd it was true, her market on Sunday was very cool because it was at the intersection of Senegal, The Gambia. No, Senegal, Guinea- Bissau and Guinea. So people from the other two countries would come in and have market stalls. So it was cool. Like there was always way cooler fabric at that market. So I was busy doing my work on Sundays in the market, the Sunday market, buying fabric."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any side projects you really liked?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.92835431620941, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got a text message from my, I got a confusing text message from my regional director. I can remember I was sitting at my counterpart's house eating my favorite sauce on the floor of his room. And I got this, like funny message that had a lot of acronyms in it, because Peace Corps loves acronyms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I like misunderstood it, or I didn't want to believe it. Because it said like all PCVs and PCTs are to be evacuated, like look for further information or something. But for months and months prior to this, like, people have been asking, volunteers have been asking like, are we being evacuated or are we in danger of being evacuated? Like, what are we doing? Ebola is growing. Like what? And the message we kept repeatedly hearing was, no. You're staying, like stay in place. It's fine. Don't worry about it. So it was kind of weird to get this out of the blue message. And for some reason, like my brain saw PCVs, which would be Peace Corps volunteers. And PCT would be Peace Corps trainees. But I didn't put it together and I think I didn't want to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. There was just no, you had no idea that this was even a possibility?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.364838129121566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I got a text message from my, I got a confusing text message from my regional director. I can remember I was sitting at my counterpart's house eating my favorite sauce on the floor of his room. And I got this, like funny message that had a lot of acronyms in it, because Peace Corps loves acronyms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I like misunderstood it, or I didn't want to believe it. Because it said like all PCVs and PCTs are to be evacuated, like look for further information or something. But for months and months prior to this, like, people have been asking, volunteers have been asking like, are we being evacuated or are we in danger of being evacuated? Like, what are we doing? Ebola is growing. Like what? And the message we kept repeatedly hearing was, no. You're staying, like stay in place. It's fine. Don't worry about it. So it was kind of weird to get this out of the blue message. And for some reason, like my brain saw PCVs, which would be Peace Corps volunteers. And PCT would be Peace Corps trainees. But I didn't put it together and I think I didn't want to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. There was just no, you had no idea that this was even a possibility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you just got a text message saying, you're out."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.74454573343337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they were thinking that Ebola was going to blow over, which was wrong."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they were thinking that it had just hit like a hot point. And so there were like too many cases and it was unsafe, but they were just taking us home on a temporary one month administrative leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they were going to fly all of us home for one month and then theoretically send us all back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let me interrupt you really quick."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.605050814925967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they were thinking that it had just hit like a hot point. And so there were like too many cases and it was unsafe, but they were just taking us home on a temporary one month administrative leave."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they were going to fly all of us home for one month and then theoretically send us all back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So let me interrupt you really quick."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was going on as far as Ebola in the country up to that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.787063400000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He picked the date. I got confirmation he was going to be there. We told everyone again, the mayor told everyone again. Date comes around, time comes around. Maybe no one was there. But like a half an hour later, people sort of showed up and the mayor showed up. And I was like, yes, it's going to happen. We're on stage. The mayor's like right next to me. And he was like, thank you so much everyone, for coming to this very important spread of information. Our like treasured American is here, blah, blah. And then he was like, looks like not everyone that we invited is here. And then says, since it's very important information, do you guys, let me be democratic here, do you guys think we should reschedule so everyone can be here to get this very important information? And I'm like, I'm definitely standing on stage shaking my head."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everyone in the audience is like, yes, it's very important information. We should wait until we have a time for everyone to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No! This is stupid. I have eight of you. I want to talk to eight of you. I don't care if there was supposed to be 16. I want to get the message to eight of you. So we didn't, we didn't do any messaging that day. And then Ramadan started shortly after that, and I was like, okay, I guess it's going to, I guess it's going to wait until after Ramadan. And then three days after Ramadan, I left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my gosh. So you were, we left when you were packing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.985626000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And everyone in the audience is like, yes, it's very important information. We should wait until we have a time for everyone to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No! This is stupid. I have eight of you. I want to talk to eight of you. I don't care if there was supposed to be 16. I want to get the message to eight of you. So we didn't, we didn't do any messaging that day. And then Ramadan started shortly after that, and I was like, okay, I guess it's going to, I guess it's going to wait until after Ramadan. And then three days after Ramadan, I left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my gosh. So you were, we left when you were packing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Okay, so I was packing. So I went back to my."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For a month?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00140:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And at the end of that, we were terminated. Given our close of service. But we didn't have, we didn't have a close of service ceremony. Like it was very, you know, like I was all alone at my house when I found out I wasn't going back to Guinea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had told all those people I was coming back. And then those people, those doubters who were like, they're not coming back. They really came back to me and I was like, I guess I'm not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a very sad time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00087:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 107.40079634565049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By the time you had joined NASA, they were about midway through the Gemini Program, so there had been space flights. They had done Mercury and a few Gemini flights. What had you thought years earlier when they had selected the first astronauts and these Mercury guys had become somewhat celebrities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Icons. Yes. Well, I was very, very proud of them and I was very excited about the whole thing, but never identified myself with that program at all. As far as I felt at the time, I was a fighter pilot, a Marine fighter pilot, and had no visions of having done that or wanting to do that. It wasn't until that announcement came out from the Marine Corps when I was a junior major, that I decided it would be a thing to try for, and I really only did it to see how far I could go. It wasn't one of my driving ambitions to be an astronaut, because I just didn't think that that's what I was going to be. I figured, well, I was going to be a Marine fighter pilot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you pay a lot of attention to, say, the Mercury Program or these other early events in the space race?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I paid a lot of attention to it. I followed all of the missions very, very avidly and very carefully and was really interested in what was going on, but I never identified myself with that program.\\n\\n I might say that when we first reported to NASA, it was a rather tumultuous time because that was about the time that [Charles A.] Bassett [II] and [Elliot M.] See [Jr.] had their accident in St. Louis [Missouri] and were killed. It wasn't long after we arrived that Gemini VIII flew and Neil [A.] Armstrong had the thruster stuck on and got into the spin-up mode. I think maybe it made a few of our guys say, \"Gee, I wonder what we've gotten ourselves into here.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we can stop and change out our tape here."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00087:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 61, "return_to_go": 119.33421816183387, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Icons. Yes. Well, I was very, very proud of them and I was very excited about the whole thing, but never identified myself with that program at all. As far as I felt at the time, I was a fighter pilot, a Marine fighter pilot, and had no visions of having done that or wanting to do that. It wasn't until that announcement came out from the Marine Corps when I was a junior major, that I decided it would be a thing to try for, and I really only did it to see how far I could go. It wasn't one of my driving ambitions to be an astronaut, because I just didn't think that that's what I was going to be. I figured, well, I was going to be a Marine fighter pilot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you pay a lot of attention to, say, the Mercury Program or these other early events in the space race?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I paid a lot of attention to it. I followed all of the missions very, very avidly and very carefully and was really interested in what was going on, but I never identified myself with that program.\\n\\n I might say that when we first reported to NASA, it was a rather tumultuous time because that was about the time that [Charles A.] Bassett [II] and [Elliot M.] See [Jr.] had their accident in St. Louis [Missouri] and were killed. It wasn't long after we arrived that Gemini VIII flew and Neil [A.] Armstrong had the thruster stuck on and got into the spin-up mode. I think maybe it made a few of our guys say, \"Gee, I wonder what we've gotten ourselves into here.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we can stop and change out our tape here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you expect from the job of an astronaut when you first joined NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00087:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 55.18487602810972, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. But I understand that divers were going in the water and people were getting pretty excited when our spacecraft didn't stop sinking."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine so. At least you guys had enough sense to get out of there before it filled up too much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I assume that you guys were still in the training mode when they launched the orbital workshop by itself."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We were in our final training mode. That is, we were mostly focusing on the command and service module training and things like that. But when the orbital workshop launched, we left the launch area and said, \"Oh, boy, that was really beautiful.\" It just went off beautifully. By the time we got back to the Holiday Inn, the word was beginning to come out that there was something wrong. We learned about that, and again we had another bad day at Black Rock, because that looked like that might be the end of the program.\\n\\n John and Annie Glenn were with us at the time, and John said, \"Now, hang on, Jerry. Don't worry. They'll think of something.\" And history has it that they were able to do some wonderful things. It's again another monument to the flexibility and the versatility of the human being, and that is that we were able to figure out how to deal with that problem and correct it and stabilize the vehicle and get it back, thermally stabilize the vehicle and get it back in operable condition."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any role in that recovery process or in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00087:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 39.9527469, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't remember whether I folded Apollo 8 into that or not. I just don't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the things you mentioned for the missions of your Skylab flight was to do these comet observations. That's what these second and third EVAs were for, too. Tell me about looking at the comet and what you guys thought about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the comet was a disappointment in terms of brilliance. Everybody, and even on the ground, thought that it was going to be a beautiful, brilliant comet, and it turned out to be very faint. We really had to work to find it. And once we found it, it was a gorgeous little thing, but it was really small and faint. We took as many pictures as we could of it, but I don't think our film was sensitive enough to really get good pictures. I think the only decent one that was taken was with a coronagraph on the ATM. I think the people on the ground got better pictures of the comet than we did.\\n\\n So in order to describe what we saw, we did drawings. Ed Gibson was the point man on that. He did the drawings and then he would do a TV report, showing the drawing to the TV and describing the colors that he saw. There's a little beak on the front end of the comet that he talked about and the significance of that. That was it. It was a disappointment, but it was really fun looking for the comet and finding it. We set experiments up outside to try to capture it while we were inside, and we brought them in on subsequent EVAs as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If we can stop to swap the tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that the comet was a little bit of a disappointment from what you had expected. How did the other types of experiments you were doing, the medical and the Earth observations, compare to your expectations in terms of their performance?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.292304542093328, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well I started college in fall of 1960 and shortly after I started college, I went to Rock Island, Illinois, to hear JFK campaign, sometime in the fall anyway. Went up with a group of friends to Rock Island."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you politically active or just sort of out of curiosity or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just probably more out of curiosity than anything. Some others in the group were fairly politically active. My family had been politically active. Actually, I had, as a nine year old, nailed up posters on telephone poles out in our rural area for Dwight Eisenhower. But, you know, I wasn't that politically active at that particular point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up on a farm in west central Illinois, near Mount Stewart in the Brown County, near Mount Sterling, Illinois, about 40 miles west of Quincy on the Mississippi, or east of Quincy on the Mississippi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went to high school there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 16.99144949121481, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just probably more out of curiosity than anything. Some others in the group were fairly politically active. My family had been politically active. Actually, I had, as a nine year old, nailed up posters on telephone poles out in our rural area for Dwight Eisenhower. But, you know, I wasn't that politically active at that particular point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up on a farm in west central Illinois, near Mount Stewart in the Brown County, near Mount Sterling, Illinois, about 40 miles west of Quincy on the Mississippi, or east of Quincy on the Mississippi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went to high school there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to high school in Mount Sterling. It was a consolidated high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During high school, did you do any extracurricular activities, volunteer work, travel?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.212721656905343, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I grew up on a farm in west central Illinois, near Mount Stewart in the Brown County, near Mount Sterling, Illinois, about 40 miles west of Quincy on the Mississippi, or east of Quincy on the Mississippi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you went to high school there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to high school in Mount Sterling. It was a consolidated high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During high school, did you do any extracurricular activities, volunteer work, travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, back in the fifties on the farms, things were not real good, and so I didn't do a whole lot. Most of the things I did were oriented around our country church and my 4-H club. And oh, just a few things at school itself, not very many. I was in the Future Homemakers of America but couldn't really participate because I had to catch a school bus. And a few things like that. So there was always a school bus issue. So, no, I was grew up in a relatively, you know, fairly isolated actually. I grew up 40 miles from the Mississippi and I'd only been a few miles across the Mississippi River twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And then you finished high school and were able to go to college."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.347468507672604, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to high school in Mount Sterling. It was a consolidated high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During high school, did you do any extracurricular activities, volunteer work, travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, back in the fifties on the farms, things were not real good, and so I didn't do a whole lot. Most of the things I did were oriented around our country church and my 4-H club. And oh, just a few things at school itself, not very many. I was in the Future Homemakers of America but couldn't really participate because I had to catch a school bus. And a few things like that. So there was always a school bus issue. So, no, I was grew up in a relatively, you know, fairly isolated actually. I grew up 40 miles from the Mississippi and I'd only been a few miles across the Mississippi River twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And then you finished high school and were able to go to college."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I finished high school there at Brown County High School and got a state teacher scholarship. And so was able to go to Western Illinois University, full tuition paid, and so that helped me go to college and get my bachelor's degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were, with what goal, you're going to become?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.608298341858449, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, back in the fifties on the farms, things were not real good, and so I didn't do a whole lot. Most of the things I did were oriented around our country church and my 4-H club. And oh, just a few things at school itself, not very many. I was in the Future Homemakers of America but couldn't really participate because I had to catch a school bus. And a few things like that. So there was always a school bus issue. So, no, I was grew up in a relatively, you know, fairly isolated actually. I grew up 40 miles from the Mississippi and I'd only been a few miles across the Mississippi River twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And then you finished high school and were able to go to college."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I finished high school there at Brown County High School and got a state teacher scholarship. And so was able to go to Western Illinois University, full tuition paid, and so that helped me go to college and get my bachelor's degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were, with what goal, you're going to become?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, I, um, my goal was to become a homemaker, become a home economist and I didn't have a very big perspective on what some of the options were because of the kind of area where I grew up. And so as far as being a woman at that particular point in time, I could see, well, I could get a job teaching or I could get a job as an extension home economist. And so that was sort of my perspective, and I also considered some other areas, but felt that those would limit me simply to teaching because there weren't other options that I knew about. And so my goal was to get a degree in home economics and I was actually interested in extension service from the beginning, because I had been active in 4-H, knew the 4-H agent and extension home economist and the ag agent very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you're in your third year of the program and when you went up to listen to John Kennedy speak."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.786998157620499, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I finished high school there at Brown County High School and got a state teacher scholarship. And so was able to go to Western Illinois University, full tuition paid, and so that helped me go to college and get my bachelor's degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were, with what goal, you're going to become?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, I, um, my goal was to become a homemaker, become a home economist and I didn't have a very big perspective on what some of the options were because of the kind of area where I grew up. And so as far as being a woman at that particular point in time, I could see, well, I could get a job teaching or I could get a job as an extension home economist. And so that was sort of my perspective, and I also considered some other areas, but felt that those would limit me simply to teaching because there weren't other options that I knew about. And so my goal was to get a degree in home economics and I was actually interested in extension service from the beginning, because I had been active in 4-H, knew the 4-H agent and extension home economist and the ag agent very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you're in your third year of the program and when you went up to listen to John Kennedy speak."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a freshman. First semester of my freshman year, first quarter of my freshman year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's go back to the story if you going to hear Kennedy."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.613577972370987, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a freshman. First semester of my freshman year, first quarter of my freshman year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's go back to the story if you going to hear Kennedy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um, not too many students had cars back in those days, but I had a friend who had a friend who had a car and so a carload of us went up to hear JFK in Rock Island, Illinois. Of course, the Peace Corps had been proposed before that, I can't remember how long before that particular campaign stop, not that awfully long. But anyway, heard him and he was very exciting and, you know, invigorating. And, you know, he talked about this organization where young people would give two years of their lives to help. And he particularly talked about young people with ag backgrounds. And of course, I'd grown up on a farm and we had, you know, it was a small subsistence farm back then. You know, we had cattle, we had hogs, we had chickens, you know, we had row crops of various kinds. And, you know, it's very different than the farming of today. And so I grew up on that kind of farm, being involved, you know, in the farm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that was exciting to me, so I was immediately interested."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was inaugurated in January of '61."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.68175330263443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um, not too many students had cars back in those days, but I had a friend who had a friend who had a car and so a carload of us went up to hear JFK in Rock Island, Illinois. Of course, the Peace Corps had been proposed before that, I can't remember how long before that particular campaign stop, not that awfully long. But anyway, heard him and he was very exciting and, you know, invigorating. And, you know, he talked about this organization where young people would give two years of their lives to help. And he particularly talked about young people with ag backgrounds. And of course, I'd grown up on a farm and we had, you know, it was a small subsistence farm back then. You know, we had cattle, we had hogs, we had chickens, you know, we had row crops of various kinds. And, you know, it's very different than the farming of today. And so I grew up on that kind of farm, being involved, you know, in the farm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that was exciting to me, so I was immediately interested."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was inaugurated in January of '61."}, {"role": "user", "content": "January of '61. And when Peace Corps started, my boyfriend and I, who were engaged at that time, we decided to apply."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Now how do you apply from being in such a small town and small college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.313059225149367, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so that was exciting to me, so I was immediately interested."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was inaugurated in January of '61."}, {"role": "user", "content": "January of '61. And when Peace Corps started, my boyfriend and I, who were engaged at that time, we decided to apply."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Now how do you apply from being in such a small town and small college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, it wasn't in January '61 We applied in January of '62, excuse me. We were engaged in January, in December of '61 and we applied in January of '62. And it really wasn't hard. We just wrote to Peace Corps and asked for applications and filled them out and mailed them. There wasn't really any recruiting to speak of back in that day that I'm aware of. Maybe they were recruiting on bigger campuses, but you know, there wasn't any recruiting at Western Illinois University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember the application process?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.014510250165963, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "January of '61. And when Peace Corps started, my boyfriend and I, who were engaged at that time, we decided to apply."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Now how do you apply from being in such a small town and small college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, it wasn't in January '61 We applied in January of '62, excuse me. We were engaged in January, in December of '61 and we applied in January of '62. And it really wasn't hard. We just wrote to Peace Corps and asked for applications and filled them out and mailed them. There wasn't really any recruiting to speak of back in that day that I'm aware of. Maybe they were recruiting on bigger campuses, but you know, there wasn't any recruiting at Western Illinois University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember the application process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember a whole lot about it. I know that it's a lot different than today. I remember it was fairly lengthy. It was all on paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall, there's a point where they ask you, one, if you know any second language, and, two, if you had a preference for assignment?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.460566944628848, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, it wasn't in January '61 We applied in January of '62, excuse me. We were engaged in January, in December of '61 and we applied in January of '62. And it really wasn't hard. We just wrote to Peace Corps and asked for applications and filled them out and mailed them. There wasn't really any recruiting to speak of back in that day that I'm aware of. Maybe they were recruiting on bigger campuses, but you know, there wasn't any recruiting at Western Illinois University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember the application process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember a whole lot about it. I know that it's a lot different than today. I remember it was fairly lengthy. It was all on paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall, there's a point where they ask you, one, if you know any second language, and, two, if you had a preference for assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I remember that part. And no, I did not have a second language. Our high school had only offered Latin. And so I had a year of Latin and no usable second language. And so that was my response to the language portion of the question. And then as far as assignment, somehow we decided that we were interested in Latin America based on some people, you know, we had perhaps known things we know about it, and, you know, both of us, actually our perspectives were somewhat limited, but we indicated that Latin America would be our first choice and then, you know, anywhere would be the second choice. We really wanted to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were applying as a couple?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.8450743829209424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember a whole lot about it. I know that it's a lot different than today. I remember it was fairly lengthy. It was all on paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall, there's a point where they ask you, one, if you know any second language, and, two, if you had a preference for assignment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I remember that part. And no, I did not have a second language. Our high school had only offered Latin. And so I had a year of Latin and no usable second language. And so that was my response to the language portion of the question. And then as far as assignment, somehow we decided that we were interested in Latin America based on some people, you know, we had perhaps known things we know about it, and, you know, both of us, actually our perspectives were somewhat limited, but we indicated that Latin America would be our first choice and then, you know, anywhere would be the second choice. We really wanted to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were applying as a couple?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were applying as a couple, planning to get married in June."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And what was your family's reaction?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1611937588010472, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I remember that part. And no, I did not have a second language. Our high school had only offered Latin. And so I had a year of Latin and no usable second language. And so that was my response to the language portion of the question. And then as far as assignment, somehow we decided that we were interested in Latin America based on some people, you know, we had perhaps known things we know about it, and, you know, both of us, actually our perspectives were somewhat limited, but we indicated that Latin America would be our first choice and then, you know, anywhere would be the second choice. We really wanted to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were applying as a couple?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were applying as a couple, planning to get married in June."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And what was your family's reaction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my family was absolutely horrified. I was the first one in my family, on either side of my family, to go to college. And, you know, they were afraid that I would not finish. That, you know, they just were very, very concerned about the whole thing. My family didn't even have a telephone in 1960. And um, so you know this, you know, I indicated before that I'd only been a few miles across the Mississippi River, even though I grew up 40 miles from it. So this was a very big step as far as they were concerned and very frightening and very."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about your friends at college, did they think you were crazy?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9027083441988237, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, my family was absolutely horrified. I was the first one in my family, on either side of my family, to go to college. And, you know, they were afraid that I would not finish. That, you know, they just were very, very concerned about the whole thing. My family didn't even have a telephone in 1960. And um, so you know this, you know, I indicated before that I'd only been a few miles across the Mississippi River, even though I grew up 40 miles from it. So this was a very big step as far as they were concerned and very frightening and very."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about your friends at college, did they think you were crazy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some of them did, but they were generally supportive. They were generally supportive. Back then, you know, they, um, you know, they still do background checks, but you know, they talked at length with your friends and then I think even did maybe some background checks on some of your friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The FBI?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they did. And you know, my friends were supportive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your fiancé was?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.818158449628178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they did. And you know, my friends were supportive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your fiancé was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he was as interested, you know, was probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As committed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the synergy of both of us probably is what prompted us to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he from the same town as you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.242398277364642, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he was as interested, you know, was probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As committed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the synergy of both of us probably is what prompted us to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he from the same town as you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he wasn't from the same town, but he was from, you know, maybe 40 miles away or so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Similar background though?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.7137758637384914, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the synergy of both of us probably is what prompted us to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he from the same town as you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he wasn't from the same town, but he was from, you know, maybe 40 miles away or so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Similar background though?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Similar background, except, well, he didn't actually grow up on a farm, but he had a lot of farm contacts and had worked on his grandfather's farm, was majoring in agriculture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he ahead of you in school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.237528737487213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, he wasn't from the same town, but he was from, you know, maybe 40 miles away or so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Similar background though?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Similar background, except, well, he didn't actually grow up on a farm, but he had a lot of farm contacts and had worked on his grandfather's farm, was majoring in agriculture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he ahead of you in school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were both. We were both on the same stage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When were you due to get your degree?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.5972541527635697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Similar background, except, well, he didn't actually grow up on a farm, but he had a lot of farm contacts and had worked on his grandfather's farm, was majoring in agriculture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was he ahead of you in school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were both. We were both on the same stage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When were you due to get your degree?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was planning to go through in three years. I'd gone to summer school that first summer, we both had, to try to get through faster and, uh, get jobs faster. But then along the way, the Peace Corps thing really had interested us ever since we first heard JFK speak, and he was in that group when I went to Rock Island. Had interested us from that time. And then as the program started to materialize and a little publicity came out about it and the news and the applications became available, you know, we decided that this could be something that we could do. That we both had farm backgrounds and, you know, we could contribute, we wanted to contribute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember taking a test as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9969490586261887, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were both. We were both on the same stage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When were you due to get your degree?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was planning to go through in three years. I'd gone to summer school that first summer, we both had, to try to get through faster and, uh, get jobs faster. But then along the way, the Peace Corps thing really had interested us ever since we first heard JFK speak, and he was in that group when I went to Rock Island. Had interested us from that time. And then as the program started to materialize and a little publicity came out about it and the news and the applications became available, you know, we decided that this could be something that we could do. That we both had farm backgrounds and, you know, we could contribute, we wanted to contribute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember taking a test as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I do remember taking a test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you intimidated by that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.441054509584654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was planning to go through in three years. I'd gone to summer school that first summer, we both had, to try to get through faster and, uh, get jobs faster. But then along the way, the Peace Corps thing really had interested us ever since we first heard JFK speak, and he was in that group when I went to Rock Island. Had interested us from that time. And then as the program started to materialize and a little publicity came out about it and the news and the applications became available, you know, we decided that this could be something that we could do. That we both had farm backgrounds and, you know, we could contribute, we wanted to contribute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember taking a test as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I do remember taking a test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you intimidated by that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually I was. Uh huh. But I don't remember much about the test, but I do remember taking the test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was kind of like a GRE or something."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.934505010649615, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I do remember taking a test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you intimidated by that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually I was. Uh huh. But I don't remember much about the test, but I do remember taking the test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was kind of like a GRE or something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, your applications are in. Have you finished up your degrees yet?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.482783345166239, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually I was. Uh huh. But I don't remember much about the test, but I do remember taking the test."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was kind of like a GRE or something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, your applications are in. Have you finished up your degrees yet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no. We finished our degrees after we came back from Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you're still in school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.091981494629154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, your applications are in. Have you finished up your degrees yet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no. We finished our degrees after we came back from Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you're still in school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We're still in school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've set the marriage date."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.768868327365727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no. We finished our degrees after we came back from Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you're still in school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We're still in school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've set the marriage date."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We set the wedding date. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.520964808184141, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We're still in school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've set the marriage date."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We set the wedding date. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we received our acceptance to Peace Corps, assignment to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall the letter?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.356627564649045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We set the wedding date. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we received our acceptance to Peace Corps, assignment to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall the letter?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it letter, phone call, telegram?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 9.28514173849894, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we received our acceptance to Peace Corps, assignment to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall the letter?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it letter, phone call, telegram?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Letter. It was letter, I believe. It was in writing. It may have been a telegram. I don't recall exactly, but it was in writing. It wasn't a phone call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did it say?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.8723797094432655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it letter, phone call, telegram?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Letter. It was letter, I believe. It was in writing. It may have been a telegram. I don't recall exactly, but it was in writing. It wasn't a phone call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did it say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I believe it said, you know, congratulations. You've been accepted for training for this project and you will report to this location, which was for us, Bozeman, Montana, Montana State University, on this date. And I don't remember exactly, but basically it came in writing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your reaction?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.524866343825851, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Letter. It was letter, I believe. It was in writing. It may have been a telegram. I don't recall exactly, but it was in writing. It wasn't a phone call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did it say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I believe it said, you know, congratulations. You've been accepted for training for this project and you will report to this location, which was for us, Bozeman, Montana, Montana State University, on this date. And I don't remember exactly, but basically it came in writing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your reaction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, very excited. Absolutely excited. Uh huh. And of course, I think my parents up to that point had felt that maybe this wasn't really going to happen. So, um, things became rather tense at that point. They were not at all excited about this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were committed enough that you were not going to back down?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.249851493139834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I believe it said, you know, congratulations. You've been accepted for training for this project and you will report to this location, which was for us, Bozeman, Montana, Montana State University, on this date. And I don't remember exactly, but basically it came in writing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your reaction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, very excited. Absolutely excited. Uh huh. And of course, I think my parents up to that point had felt that maybe this wasn't really going to happen. So, um, things became rather tense at that point. They were not at all excited about this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were committed enough that you were not going to back down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was very committed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps understood they were accepting you without the degrees."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.055390547933149, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, very excited. Absolutely excited. Uh huh. And of course, I think my parents up to that point had felt that maybe this wasn't really going to happen. So, um, things became rather tense at that point. They were not at all excited about this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you were committed enough that you were not going to back down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was very committed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps understood they were accepting you without the degrees."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh yes. Actually, at that point, you did not have to have a degree to go into Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. In filling out the application, you must have indicated a lot about having grown up on a farm and being in, having studied agriculture."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.950433942147942, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was very committed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps understood they were accepting you without the degrees."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh yes. Actually, at that point, you did not have to have a degree to go into Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. In filling out the application, you must have indicated a lot about having grown up on a farm and being in, having studied agriculture."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. I believe that a lot of that was on the application. There were things about, you know, volunteer involvement, which, you know, had mostly been through my church and my 4-H club. And, you know, I participated on some, you know, livestock judging teams, and then about working on the farm at home and that kind of involvement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your, is he now your husband, your husband?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.944926602386602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Oh yes. Actually, at that point, you did not have to have a degree to go into Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. In filling out the application, you must have indicated a lot about having grown up on a farm and being in, having studied agriculture."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. I believe that a lot of that was on the application. There were things about, you know, volunteer involvement, which, you know, had mostly been through my church and my 4-H club. And, you know, I participated on some, you know, livestock judging teams, and then about working on the farm at home and that kind of involvement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your, is he now your husband, your husband?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, my fiancé at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did he have a strong enough agricultural background?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.049918447096223, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. I believe that a lot of that was on the application. There were things about, you know, volunteer involvement, which, you know, had mostly been through my church and my 4-H club. And, you know, I participated on some, you know, livestock judging teams, and then about working on the farm at home and that kind of involvement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your, is he now your husband, your husband?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, my fiancé at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did he have a strong enough agricultural background?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he had grown up helping his grandfather on the farm and was actually majoring in agriculture. I was majoring in home economics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. All right. Did he speak any other languages?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.055464941218025, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, my fiancé at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did he have a strong enough agricultural background?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he had grown up helping his grandfather on the farm and was actually majoring in agriculture. I was majoring in home economics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. All right. Did he speak any other languages?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think he may have a semester or a year of Spanish. I can't remember. A small amount, not. I mean, really, neither one of us spoke Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was your sense that you were both committed to doing this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.172738823575584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he had grown up helping his grandfather on the farm and was actually majoring in agriculture. I was majoring in home economics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Got it. All right. Did he speak any other languages?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think he may have a semester or a year of Spanish. I can't remember. A small amount, not. I mean, really, neither one of us spoke Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was your sense that you were both committed to doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When were you asked to report to Montana?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.303043137306204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think he may have a semester or a year of Spanish. I can't remember. A small amount, not. I mean, really, neither one of us spoke Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was your sense that you were both committed to doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When were you asked to report to Montana?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We reported in June. I don't recall the exact date because we finished the quarter, got married, and then went to Bozeman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your honeymoon was."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.447825708118005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When were you asked to report to Montana?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We reported in June. I don't recall the exact date because we finished the quarter, got married, and then went to Bozeman."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your honeymoon was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our honeymoon was in Peace Corps training, more or less. You know, after the first couple of days, anyway. Actually neither one of us had ever flown before on an airplane. So the Peace Corps sent us airline tickets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you fly out of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.46645149150371, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Our honeymoon was in Peace Corps training, more or less. You know, after the first couple of days, anyway. Actually neither one of us had ever flown before on an airplane. So the Peace Corps sent us airline tickets."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you fly out of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we didn't. The federal government, you know, always uses first class tickets so they can be refunded. And so we cashed the tickets in and got train tickets because neither one of us had ever seen any of the country west. And so we took the train to Montana."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lovely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't plan the trip very well, though, because we were this naive that we got on the train in central Illinois in, you know, early in the day or like sometime in the morning. And went to Chicago and had to change trains and went to Minneapolis and changed trains again and then headed west. But by then it was dark. And so we went all across the states we really wanted to see, the Dakotas and eastern Montana, in the dark and woke up, you know, not too far out of Bozeman actually. We did see a little bit of it around Bozeman the next morning."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you got yourself. So it was at a university?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.2960572127819, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we didn't. The federal government, you know, always uses first class tickets so they can be refunded. And so we cashed the tickets in and got train tickets because neither one of us had ever seen any of the country west. And so we took the train to Montana."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Lovely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't plan the trip very well, though, because we were this naive that we got on the train in central Illinois in, you know, early in the day or like sometime in the morning. And went to Chicago and had to change trains and went to Minneapolis and changed trains again and then headed west. But by then it was dark. And so we went all across the states we really wanted to see, the Dakotas and eastern Montana, in the dark and woke up, you know, not too far out of Bozeman actually. We did see a little bit of it around Bozeman the next morning."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you got yourself. So it was at a university?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the training was at Montana State University had the contract for Ecuador, and the home economics, the ag staff were involved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall first reporting, checking in, you and, what's your husband's name?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.9956191253132225, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't plan the trip very well, though, because we were this naive that we got on the train in central Illinois in, you know, early in the day or like sometime in the morning. And went to Chicago and had to change trains and went to Minneapolis and changed trains again and then headed west. But by then it was dark. And so we went all across the states we really wanted to see, the Dakotas and eastern Montana, in the dark and woke up, you know, not too far out of Bozeman actually. We did see a little bit of it around Bozeman the next morning."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you got yourself. So it was at a university?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the training was at Montana State University had the contract for Ecuador, and the home economics, the ag staff were involved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall first reporting, checking in, you and, what's your husband's name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dave. Dave Ellsworth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Dave show up and tell me about."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.772910139236914, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the training was at Montana State University had the contract for Ecuador, and the home economics, the ag staff were involved."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall first reporting, checking in, you and, what's your husband's name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dave. Dave Ellsworth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Dave show up and tell me about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They met us at the train station and took us, um, to check in. I don't remember a whole lot about the check-in procedure. I do remember we were lodged in the dorms and, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Together, I hope."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.636566821374348, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dave. Dave Ellsworth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you and Dave show up and tell me about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They met us at the train station and took us, um, to check in. I don't remember a whole lot about the check-in procedure. I do remember we were lodged in the dorms and, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Together, I hope."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, together. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many were in the group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.485074245971497, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They met us at the train station and took us, um, to check in. I don't remember a whole lot about the check-in procedure. I do remember we were lodged in the dorms and, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Together, I hope."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, together. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many were in the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, there were 77, I believe, somewhere in the seventies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you've made this decision, you and David have made this strong decision to join, and now you're in the midst of 70 some people who've done the same. What was your reaction to others, to the rest of the group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.31674916219055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, together. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many were in the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, there were 77, I believe, somewhere in the seventies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you've made this decision, you and David have made this strong decision to join, and now you're in the midst of 70 some people who've done the same. What was your reaction to others, to the rest of the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, actually, I'm having a little trouble remembering, you know, it's 42 years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Yeah, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 9.240832402433945, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially, there were 77, I believe, somewhere in the seventies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you've made this decision, you and David have made this strong decision to join, and now you're in the midst of 70 some people who've done the same. What was your reaction to others, to the rest of the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, actually, I'm having a little trouble remembering, you know, it's 42 years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The group was somewhat diverse from my perspective at the time, anyway. There were quite a few people with ag backgrounds like ours. And then there were some people without ag backgrounds who were to be trained, you know, in agriculture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There must have been people from California, New York."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.934258224926605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, actually, I'm having a little trouble remembering, you know, it's 42 years later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The group was somewhat diverse from my perspective at the time, anyway. There were quite a few people with ag backgrounds like ours. And then there were some people without ag backgrounds who were to be trained, you know, in agriculture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There must have been people from California, New York."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, from everywhere, you know, there was an. Most of the group was fairly young, either right out of college. There were several who had not started college at all. And then we were in the middle, you know, of our degree programs at the time. There was one couple. He was a retired extension agent from Kentucky and his wife, who was probably, they were the oldest in our group. There was a couple probably in their forties or so. And then there was a single woman who'd been a goat farmer in Florida. And then most of the rest were right out of college. Yeah, mostly right out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But a fair number have were coming off, from farm backgrounds?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.704731361029561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The group was somewhat diverse from my perspective at the time, anyway. There were quite a few people with ag backgrounds like ours. And then there were some people without ag backgrounds who were to be trained, you know, in agriculture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There must have been people from California, New York."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, from everywhere, you know, there was an. Most of the group was fairly young, either right out of college. There were several who had not started college at all. And then we were in the middle, you know, of our degree programs at the time. There was one couple. He was a retired extension agent from Kentucky and his wife, who was probably, they were the oldest in our group. There was a couple probably in their forties or so. And then there was a single woman who'd been a goat farmer in Florida. And then most of the rest were right out of college. Yeah, mostly right out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But a fair number have were coming off, from farm backgrounds?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Farm backgrounds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you weren't the oddball in the group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.560812623366179, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, from everywhere, you know, there was an. Most of the group was fairly young, either right out of college. There were several who had not started college at all. And then we were in the middle, you know, of our degree programs at the time. There was one couple. He was a retired extension agent from Kentucky and his wife, who was probably, they were the oldest in our group. There was a couple probably in their forties or so. And then there was a single woman who'd been a goat farmer in Florida. And then most of the rest were right out of college. Yeah, mostly right out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But a fair number have were coming off, from farm backgrounds?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Farm backgrounds."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you weren't the oddball in the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we weren't the oddball in the group. They were quite a few farm kids, young people. Well, not just young because the retired extension agent. And the goat farmer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about the structure of training, how was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.999742967580492, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training was extremely intense and actually my first shock was when we got our training schedules because of my first name being Billie, even though at that point I went by my middle name, which was Jean, I got an assignment to this tropical agriculture training. The training was divided into tropical agriculture, I think. Well, I guess tropical agriculture included both the highlands and the tropics, the way we did that. And then home economics. And so I went to the person who was in charge of the home economics portion of the training and said, I think you've made a mistake. You know, I'm a home economics major. And she looked at me and she said, well, um, all of the other females in the program don't have the kind of background like you have. So there were men who had the ag backgrounds, but the females tended not to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we have decided that we're going to put you in tropical agriculture training because you already have done or know all the things that we're going to be covering in in the home economics portion of the training. You know, they killed a chicken one day and everyone was talking about killing the chicken. Well, you know, I'd killed and dressed hundreds of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, you know, that was the right decision. She had to convince me, though, that the whole training staff had talked about it, that the ag people and she had talked about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was Dave in the same group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.999714408422768, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we have decided that we're going to put you in tropical agriculture training because you already have done or know all the things that we're going to be covering in in the home economics portion of the training. You know, they killed a chicken one day and everyone was talking about killing the chicken. Well, you know, I'd killed and dressed hundreds of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, you know, that was the right decision. She had to convince me, though, that the whole training staff had talked about it, that the ag people and she had talked about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was Dave in the same group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. So he and I were in the same training as far as that part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Now, well, let's talk about the ag training. What was involved, I mean, what were they preparing you for?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.110793787136409, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, you know, that was the right decision. She had to convince me, though, that the whole training staff had talked about it, that the ag people and she had talked about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was Dave in the same group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. So he and I were in the same training as far as that part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Now, well, let's talk about the ag training. What was involved, I mean, what were they preparing you for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, basically it was, um, you know, it was very different agriculture than most of us had been around. In the highlands of Ecuador, of course, they grew some wheat and grains and so on. There was that aspect of it. But the emphasis was on the kinds of things that we would not have been exposed to. You know, bananas, cacao, coffee, you know, tropical things. Some of which, you know, were grown in a lot of plantations, but there were some small producers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But Bozeman is not a tropical environment."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.345326430151564, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah. So he and I were in the same training as far as that part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Now, well, let's talk about the ag training. What was involved, I mean, what were they preparing you for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, basically it was, um, you know, it was very different agriculture than most of us had been around. In the highlands of Ecuador, of course, they grew some wheat and grains and so on. There was that aspect of it. But the emphasis was on the kinds of things that we would not have been exposed to. You know, bananas, cacao, coffee, you know, tropical things. Some of which, you know, were grown in a lot of plantations, but there were some small producers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But Bozeman is not a tropical environment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it isn't. I guess the highlands, you know, they had staff on the training staff from Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were Ecuadorian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 11.49480714461285, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, basically it was, um, you know, it was very different agriculture than most of us had been around. In the highlands of Ecuador, of course, they grew some wheat and grains and so on. There was that aspect of it. But the emphasis was on the kinds of things that we would not have been exposed to. You know, bananas, cacao, coffee, you know, tropical things. Some of which, you know, were grown in a lot of plantations, but there were some small producers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But Bozeman is not a tropical environment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it isn't. I guess the highlands, you know, they had staff on the training staff from Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were Ecuadorian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who were Ecuadorians, someone from the Ecuadorian extension service who was not that, which was not that old at the time. Um, the director of Heifer Project in Ecuador. Our group, by the way, was contracted to Heifer Project in Ecuador to manage the agriculture part of it, and they had either started or been very involved with the Ecuadorian extension service for quite a number of years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give me a brief description of what the Heifer Project was?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.105341271792056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it isn't. I guess the highlands, you know, they had staff on the training staff from Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who were Ecuadorian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who were Ecuadorians, someone from the Ecuadorian extension service who was not that, which was not that old at the time. Um, the director of Heifer Project in Ecuador. Our group, by the way, was contracted to Heifer Project in Ecuador to manage the agriculture part of it, and they had either started or been very involved with the Ecuadorian extension service for quite a number of years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give me a brief description of what the Heifer Project was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. Heifer Project is based in Little Rock, Arkansas, and it was actually started after World War II by a person who had the vision of sending livestock from here to Europe to replenish the livestock, particularly dairy heifers, originally. That's the name Heifer. And so they would send bred heifers to Europe and then the person, the recipient, would then be responsible for returning the first female offspring so that this was like a calf chain, you know, to multiply the livestock in the country. It later became incorporated, you know, they have a huge research operation now down near Little Rock. And Heifer Project had been doing agricultural development work, particularly in the livestock arena, in various countries of the world. And I believe the Peace Corps contract with Heifer to run that was the first contract with Heifer in the world, the one in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did they get money from AID also?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.783712524213395, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who were Ecuadorians, someone from the Ecuadorian extension service who was not that, which was not that old at the time. Um, the director of Heifer Project in Ecuador. Our group, by the way, was contracted to Heifer Project in Ecuador to manage the agriculture part of it, and they had either started or been very involved with the Ecuadorian extension service for quite a number of years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give me a brief description of what the Heifer Project was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. Heifer Project is based in Little Rock, Arkansas, and it was actually started after World War II by a person who had the vision of sending livestock from here to Europe to replenish the livestock, particularly dairy heifers, originally. That's the name Heifer. And so they would send bred heifers to Europe and then the person, the recipient, would then be responsible for returning the first female offspring so that this was like a calf chain, you know, to multiply the livestock in the country. It later became incorporated, you know, they have a huge research operation now down near Little Rock. And Heifer Project had been doing agricultural development work, particularly in the livestock arena, in various countries of the world. And I believe the Peace Corps contract with Heifer to run that was the first contract with Heifer in the world, the one in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did they get money from AID also?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know what their funding was. We didn't know that much about the funding, but the advantage was that we were working with Peace Corps, but we were working directly with Heifer and we were assigned to the Ecuadorian extension service. So there were people at our training site who had been involved in extension in Ecuador, like the assistant director was there throughout, and then the director of Heifer for Ecuador was there throughout."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were all Ecuadorians?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.426347249125994, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. Heifer Project is based in Little Rock, Arkansas, and it was actually started after World War II by a person who had the vision of sending livestock from here to Europe to replenish the livestock, particularly dairy heifers, originally. That's the name Heifer. And so they would send bred heifers to Europe and then the person, the recipient, would then be responsible for returning the first female offspring so that this was like a calf chain, you know, to multiply the livestock in the country. It later became incorporated, you know, they have a huge research operation now down near Little Rock. And Heifer Project had been doing agricultural development work, particularly in the livestock arena, in various countries of the world. And I believe the Peace Corps contract with Heifer to run that was the first contract with Heifer in the world, the one in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did they get money from AID also?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know what their funding was. We didn't know that much about the funding, but the advantage was that we were working with Peace Corps, but we were working directly with Heifer and we were assigned to the Ecuadorian extension service. So there were people at our training site who had been involved in extension in Ecuador, like the assistant director was there throughout, and then the director of Heifer for Ecuador was there throughout."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were all Ecuadorians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The director of Heifer Project was not. He was from the States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about language training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.029274721251104, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know what their funding was. We didn't know that much about the funding, but the advantage was that we were working with Peace Corps, but we were working directly with Heifer and we were assigned to the Ecuadorian extension service. So there were people at our training site who had been involved in extension in Ecuador, like the assistant director was there throughout, and then the director of Heifer for Ecuador was there throughout."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were all Ecuadorians?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The director of Heifer Project was not. He was from the States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, language training was very intense because I started out with zero. And we had five hours of language a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the approach, do you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.699194134723449, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The director of Heifer Project was not. He was from the States."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about language training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, language training was very intense because I started out with zero. And we had five hours of language a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the approach, do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Primarily conversational. We had a book or two, a couple of books, but it was primarily conversational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get tapes and listen?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.44354903858161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, language training was very intense because I started out with zero. And we had five hours of language a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the approach, do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Primarily conversational. We had a book or two, a couple of books, but it was primarily conversational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get tapes and listen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, they didn't have tape players and all that in our training at that point. No, it was just strictly small group with a native speaking instructor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they had Ecuadorians."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.048387820646233, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Primarily conversational. We had a book or two, a couple of books, but it was primarily conversational."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get tapes and listen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, they didn't have tape players and all that in our training at that point. No, it was just strictly small group with a native speaking instructor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they had Ecuadorians."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not necessarily Ecuadorians. Our instructor was from Mexico. And there were like 12 people. They broke us down, the approximately 77 of us, into groups of about 12 or so. And for a lot of things, you functioned in this group of 12, in language you stayed with this group of 12. And for your weekend camp out and hike ins in the mountains, you functioned with this group of 12 plus the staff who went along. And then for your area studies, you know, we had big things with all of us. And then the agriculture training included those who were in the agriculture training. And the home economics training included those who were in the home economics training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the language training, were you told that you had to get up to a certain level in order to be selected?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.720430911829148, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, they didn't have tape players and all that in our training at that point. No, it was just strictly small group with a native speaking instructor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they had Ecuadorians."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not necessarily Ecuadorians. Our instructor was from Mexico. And there were like 12 people. They broke us down, the approximately 77 of us, into groups of about 12 or so. And for a lot of things, you functioned in this group of 12, in language you stayed with this group of 12. And for your weekend camp out and hike ins in the mountains, you functioned with this group of 12 plus the staff who went along. And then for your area studies, you know, we had big things with all of us. And then the agriculture training included those who were in the agriculture training. And the home economics training included those who were in the home economics training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the language training, were you told that you had to get up to a certain level in order to be selected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which must have been a source of a certain amount of tension."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.467145457587941, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not necessarily Ecuadorians. Our instructor was from Mexico. And there were like 12 people. They broke us down, the approximately 77 of us, into groups of about 12 or so. And for a lot of things, you functioned in this group of 12, in language you stayed with this group of 12. And for your weekend camp out and hike ins in the mountains, you functioned with this group of 12 plus the staff who went along. And then for your area studies, you know, we had big things with all of us. And then the agriculture training included those who were in the agriculture training. And the home economics training included those who were in the home economics training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the language training, were you told that you had to get up to a certain level in order to be selected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which must have been a source of a certain amount of tension."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was a lot of anxiety for everyone. That and then the other anxiety was the all the psychological tests that they gave you when you. And as I'm recalling part of that was when you first arrived, they gave you a lot of psychological tests."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Paper and pencil?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.296828286208823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which must have been a source of a certain amount of tension."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was a lot of anxiety for everyone. That and then the other anxiety was the all the psychological tests that they gave you when you. And as I'm recalling part of that was when you first arrived, they gave you a lot of psychological tests."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Paper and pencil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Paper and pencil tests. And um, and then based on I'm not sure what all criteria. I know that the psychological portion and the tests were part of it, the observation of the psychiatrists and psychologists who were with your group because each of these groups of 12 had a psychiatrist, a psychologist, assigned to be with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get, were you interviewed separately by a psychologist or psychiatrist?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.218698095787582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, it was a lot of anxiety for everyone. That and then the other anxiety was the all the psychological tests that they gave you when you. And as I'm recalling part of that was when you first arrived, they gave you a lot of psychological tests."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Paper and pencil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Paper and pencil tests. And um, and then based on I'm not sure what all criteria. I know that the psychological portion and the tests were part of it, the observation of the psychiatrists and psychologists who were with your group because each of these groups of 12 had a psychiatrist, a psychologist, assigned to be with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get, were you interviewed separately by a psychologist or psychiatrist?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that like? Because I assume you had not had much contact with either."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.381108760231582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that like? Because I assume you had not had much contact with either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had never had any contact with either. Actually, I was probably so naive. I was probably pretty relaxed about it. But they ask you, I really don't remember what they ask and so on but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I just can't. You know, part of it was follow up to some of the pencil paper questionnaire, I believe. I really don't remember a whole lot about that, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you and Dave interviewed together at any point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.645676400257313, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had never had any contact with either. Actually, I was probably so naive. I was probably pretty relaxed about it. But they ask you, I really don't remember what they ask and so on but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I just can't. You know, part of it was follow up to some of the pencil paper questionnaire, I believe. I really don't remember a whole lot about that, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you and Dave interviewed together at any point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, separately."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you recall being questioned about how do you think, you're newly married, how will it go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.05075155584146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I just can't. You know, part of it was follow up to some of the pencil paper questionnaire, I believe. I really don't remember a whole lot about that, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you and Dave interviewed together at any point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, separately."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you recall being questioned about how do you think, you're newly married, how will it go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, definitely on things like that. Yes, there were things along that line and, um, you know, maybe some questioning of me about, you know, his motivations and probably him about mine. I can't recall exactly about that, it's been a long time ago,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did you and Dave talk about?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.309569822026493, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, definitely on things like that. Yes, there were things along that line and, um, you know, maybe some questioning of me about, you know, his motivations and probably him about mine. I can't recall exactly about that, it's been a long time ago,"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But did you and Dave talk about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they didn't really give you that much time. Our day started at 5:30 in the morning with physical training. And we had to run. Well, actually, you could walk over, but you had to be over at the football field at a certain time for physical training. And so, you know, you usually be running late and you'd go over there and you do your exercises and then you'd run and then you'd run all the way back to the dorm. I tried to get back first or second because so I was in a hurry because the water would run out in the showers and everyone was coming in at the same time and the water in Montana was cold even in June and July."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, then we'd go to breakfast and yeah, we did talk about it. But you know, I just don't remember that. That's been a long time ago. But, you know, the days were pretty busy. You didn't have a lot of time for that kind of talking. You were, you know, pretty busy and tired most of the time. Then you'd go through, you'd go to breakfast and then you'd go to your first language class. And then you'd have, as I'm recalling, either area studies, which would be about the history and culture. We studied a lot on the history, the customs, the culture, you know, of Ecuador. Um, you know, then I can't remember exactly the language class schedule. I remember there was one early in the morning, and it totaled about five hours a day altogether."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember if in the dining hall, they tried to set up speak Spanish only at meals kind of thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.455077580029435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they didn't really give you that much time. Our day started at 5:30 in the morning with physical training. And we had to run. Well, actually, you could walk over, but you had to be over at the football field at a certain time for physical training. And so, you know, you usually be running late and you'd go over there and you do your exercises and then you'd run and then you'd run all the way back to the dorm. I tried to get back first or second because so I was in a hurry because the water would run out in the showers and everyone was coming in at the same time and the water in Montana was cold even in June and July."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, then we'd go to breakfast and yeah, we did talk about it. But you know, I just don't remember that. That's been a long time ago. But, you know, the days were pretty busy. You didn't have a lot of time for that kind of talking. You were, you know, pretty busy and tired most of the time. Then you'd go through, you'd go to breakfast and then you'd go to your first language class. And then you'd have, as I'm recalling, either area studies, which would be about the history and culture. We studied a lot on the history, the customs, the culture, you know, of Ecuador. Um, you know, then I can't remember exactly the language class schedule. I remember there was one early in the morning, and it totaled about five hours a day altogether."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember if in the dining hall, they tried to set up speak Spanish only at meals kind of thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't think so. I think that the language instructors did join us at the tables as we got more into the training and then we would talk with the instructor in Spanish. But I think in the beginning, no, they did not. We just went through the cafeteria, the university cafeteria, along with all the students, and selected from the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you remember if there was a component of American studies and world communism?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.727863977810484, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, then we'd go to breakfast and yeah, we did talk about it. But you know, I just don't remember that. That's been a long time ago. But, you know, the days were pretty busy. You didn't have a lot of time for that kind of talking. You were, you know, pretty busy and tired most of the time. Then you'd go through, you'd go to breakfast and then you'd go to your first language class. And then you'd have, as I'm recalling, either area studies, which would be about the history and culture. We studied a lot on the history, the customs, the culture, you know, of Ecuador. Um, you know, then I can't remember exactly the language class schedule. I remember there was one early in the morning, and it totaled about five hours a day altogether."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember if in the dining hall, they tried to set up speak Spanish only at meals kind of thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't think so. I think that the language instructors did join us at the tables as we got more into the training and then we would talk with the instructor in Spanish. But I think in the beginning, no, they did not. We just went through the cafeteria, the university cafeteria, along with all the students, and selected from the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you remember if there was a component of American studies and world communism?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I think there was some. Yeah, I think there was American studies too. I'd forgotten that aspect of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And any discussion of world communism as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.142071086456093, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't think so. I think that the language instructors did join us at the tables as we got more into the training and then we would talk with the instructor in Spanish. But I think in the beginning, no, they did not. We just went through the cafeteria, the university cafeteria, along with all the students, and selected from the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you remember if there was a component of American studies and world communism?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I think there was some. Yeah, I think there was American studies too. I'd forgotten that aspect of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And any discussion of world communism as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. That part I don't remember really as clearly as, um, as the Ecuadorian area studies, probably because that was totally new to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, yeah, I mean, in practical, you're about to go to Ecuador"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.602301207173436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, I think there was some. Yeah, I think there was American studies too. I'd forgotten that aspect of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And any discussion of world communism as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. That part I don't remember really as clearly as, um, as the Ecuadorian area studies, probably because that was totally new to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, yeah, I mean, in practical, you're about to go to Ecuador"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Focused on it. But yes, there was a history professor from the university on our training staff. This many years later, my guess is that that was probably his role to coordinate that part of it. And the reason I remember him so clearly because he was in our camp out group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Tell me about the camp outs."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 16.224779119081596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe so. That part I don't remember really as clearly as, um, as the Ecuadorian area studies, probably because that was totally new to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, yeah, I mean, in practical, you're about to go to Ecuador"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Focused on it. But yes, there was a history professor from the university on our training staff. This many years later, my guess is that that was probably his role to coordinate that part of it. And the reason I remember him so clearly because he was in our camp out group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Tell me about the camp outs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the camp outs. Well, we had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it every weekend?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.249754576757327, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Focused on it. But yes, there was a history professor from the university on our training staff. This many years later, my guess is that that was probably his role to coordinate that part of it. And the reason I remember him so clearly because he was in our camp out group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Tell me about the camp outs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the camp outs. Well, we had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it every weekend?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every weekend. We had training all week, Monday through Friday, and then Saturday morning. And then Saturday, as soon as training was over, maybe lunch, they'd load us into the back of trucks along with our World War II surplus or Korean War surplus issued sleeping bags and haul us out somewhere to the foothills of the mountains, usually each group totally separately. Sometimes they would combine maybe two, but usually each group separately. And our psychologist went along and an outdoor person expert went along, on the area, you know, on that area where we were going. Or two of them usually because our outdoor experts, one of them was the history professor and then the other one was this woman who really was an outdoorsman, a rancher and so on in area.\n\nAnd we would hike in with our food on our back and it wasn't freeze dried like today. I remember the time that I had the five pound can of tuna put in the back of my backpack. It was along with all the other things that you had back then. You know, you tried to keep it to a minimum, but anyway, you'd hike in and you'd make camp and you'd make fire and you'd cook your supper. And, you know, usually we'd sing around the campfire and things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did the staff explain the purpose of it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.388616196397031, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the camp outs. Well, we had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it every weekend?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every weekend. We had training all week, Monday through Friday, and then Saturday morning. And then Saturday, as soon as training was over, maybe lunch, they'd load us into the back of trucks along with our World War II surplus or Korean War surplus issued sleeping bags and haul us out somewhere to the foothills of the mountains, usually each group totally separately. Sometimes they would combine maybe two, but usually each group separately. And our psychologist went along and an outdoor person expert went along, on the area, you know, on that area where we were going. Or two of them usually because our outdoor experts, one of them was the history professor and then the other one was this woman who really was an outdoorsman, a rancher and so on in area.\n\nAnd we would hike in with our food on our back and it wasn't freeze dried like today. I remember the time that I had the five pound can of tuna put in the back of my backpack. It was along with all the other things that you had back then. You know, you tried to keep it to a minimum, but anyway, you'd hike in and you'd make camp and you'd make fire and you'd cook your supper. And, you know, usually we'd sing around the campfire and things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did the staff explain the purpose of it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they sort of explained it that we didn't know where we were going in Ecuador. And you know, some of us might have to, you know, do a lot of hiking and walking in and it was a mountainous country. As I'm recalling, that was more or less the explanation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't believe it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 12.6540179959967, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every weekend. We had training all week, Monday through Friday, and then Saturday morning. And then Saturday, as soon as training was over, maybe lunch, they'd load us into the back of trucks along with our World War II surplus or Korean War surplus issued sleeping bags and haul us out somewhere to the foothills of the mountains, usually each group totally separately. Sometimes they would combine maybe two, but usually each group separately. And our psychologist went along and an outdoor person expert went along, on the area, you know, on that area where we were going. Or two of them usually because our outdoor experts, one of them was the history professor and then the other one was this woman who really was an outdoorsman, a rancher and so on in area.\n\nAnd we would hike in with our food on our back and it wasn't freeze dried like today. I remember the time that I had the five pound can of tuna put in the back of my backpack. It was along with all the other things that you had back then. You know, you tried to keep it to a minimum, but anyway, you'd hike in and you'd make camp and you'd make fire and you'd cook your supper. And, you know, usually we'd sing around the campfire and things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did the staff explain the purpose of it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they sort of explained it that we didn't know where we were going in Ecuador. And you know, some of us might have to, you know, do a lot of hiking and walking in and it was a mountainous country. As I'm recalling, that was more or less the explanation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you didn't believe it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, I sort of did, except I ended up in the coast, and so. I ended up in the desert on the coast."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the whole time you were out on these weekends, did you have a sense you were being watched?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.449404933329259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, I sort of did, except I ended up in the coast, and so. I ended up in the desert on the coast."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the whole time you were out on these weekends, did you have a sense you were being watched?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Everyone, everyone had a sense that they were being watched and all the time because this psychiatrist, psychologist, was there all the time. His name was Dr. Geenwa, ours was. And starting about two weeks into our training, on a certain day of the week when you came back from your morning physical training before you went to breakfast, there would be pink slips in the mailboxes and so everyone would run to their mailboxes to see if they'd gotten a pink slip that week. And that was a deselection slip."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And actually, we started out with about 77. I think 47 or 49 of us went to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my god."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.382760652074596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, of course, in a couple, if one's deselected, the other is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so he may have had some concern about my Spanish because my Spanish wasn't quite as good as his. But, you know, he never verbalized it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think we were both concerned about deselection. Everyone was. Everyone was, you know, really, you know, really uptight. And, you know, there may have been more competition in this group than what I have seen and heard about from recent RPCVs. You know, because of this thing that was set up on the deselection process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this went on pretty much in the same pattern for eight weeks?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7586229467495507, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so he may have had some concern about my Spanish because my Spanish wasn't quite as good as his. But, you know, he never verbalized it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think we were both concerned about deselection. Everyone was. Everyone was, you know, really, you know, really uptight. And, you know, there may have been more competition in this group than what I have seen and heard about from recent RPCVs. You know, because of this thing that was set up on the deselection process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this went on pretty much in the same pattern for eight weeks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, eight weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were tested midpoint and at the end in language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.176247718610612, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think we were both concerned about deselection. Everyone was. Everyone was, you know, really, you know, really uptight. And, you know, there may have been more competition in this group than what I have seen and heard about from recent RPCVs. You know, because of this thing that was set up on the deselection process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this went on pretty much in the same pattern for eight weeks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, eight weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were tested midpoint and at the end in language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your technical skills, that was? There was no test."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.64027524290068, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, eight weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were tested midpoint and at the end in language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your technical skills, that was? There was no test."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think there were any tests in the technical skills. No. It was more of an, as I look back on it, I would call it more of an awareness. Yeah, I did learn some things because, you know, about how bananas are propagated and so on. That I still remember and a few things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At any point in the training, was there any kind of specificity about the job you were going to be doing when you got to Ecuador?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9336391587785338, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your technical skills, that was? There was no test."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think there were any tests in the technical skills. No. It was more of an, as I look back on it, I would call it more of an awareness. Yeah, I did learn some things because, you know, about how bananas are propagated and so on. That I still remember and a few things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At any point in the training, was there any kind of specificity about the job you were going to be doing when you got to Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At one point, we did get to indicate what part of the country we might like to go to. You know, coast or Andes, and that may, they may have at that point then focused a little bit more. I don't really remember totally. But I do remember there was discussion. We had an opportunity to indicate whether we were more interested in the coast or the Andes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, you weren't asked about who you wanted to be assigned with because the assumption was it would be you and Dave."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.621776739232758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At one point, we did get to indicate what part of the country we might like to go to. You know, coast or Andes, and that may, they may have at that point then focused a little bit more. I don't really remember totally. But I do remember there was discussion. We had an opportunity to indicate whether we were more interested in the coast or the Andes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course, you weren't asked about who you wanted to be assigned with because the assumption was it would be you and Dave."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And I don't know that they asked the others who they wanted to be assigned with. They did assign. They did not assign single women to an area unless they assigned a male Peace Corps volunteer there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess because of the culture and the time and so on, they felt that the females needed to be have someone to quote, look after them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right. So how did how was final selection? By then everybody who was going to be deselected had been or was there the last couple of days when you didn't know if it was going to happen or not?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.3602181965836513, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess because of the culture and the time and so on, they felt that the females needed to be have someone to quote, look after them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Right. So how did how was final selection? By then everybody who was going to be deselected had been or was there the last couple of days when you didn't know if it was going to happen or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, you know, I've forgotten that. I'm really not sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I don't remember if it went up, the final deselection was right at the end or if it had been a week or so earlier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know what your final score was on language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7335757739818347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, you know, I've forgotten that. I'm really not sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I don't remember if it went up, the final deselection was right at the end or if it had been a week or so earlier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know what your final score was on language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember. I don't know that we were told that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. But you and Dave were selected."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.148417526646483, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I don't remember if it went up, the final deselection was right at the end or if it had been a week or so earlier."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know what your final score was on language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember. I don't know that we were told that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. But you and Dave were selected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were selected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Along with 40 some other people."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.609352807384981, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember. I don't know that we were told that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. But you and Dave were selected."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were selected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Along with 40 some other people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Along with 40 some other people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that point, what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.010392008205535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were selected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Along with 40 some other people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Along with 40 some other people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that point, what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, then we were given a plane ticket to fly home and pack. We were told, you know, what kinds of things to pack. And back then you got a foot locker to ship, as well as your 66 pounds or whatever you could take on an international flight. And so we went home and, you know, packed up our stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you fly back?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.455991120228372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Along with 40 some other people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that point, what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, then we were given a plane ticket to fly home and pack. We were told, you know, what kinds of things to pack. And back then you got a foot locker to ship, as well as your 66 pounds or whatever you could take on an international flight. And so we went home and, you know, packed up our stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you fly back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did fly back. We flew back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was your first flight."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8399901335870807, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, then we were given a plane ticket to fly home and pack. We were told, you know, what kinds of things to pack. And back then you got a foot locker to ship, as well as your 66 pounds or whatever you could take on an international flight. And so we went home and, you know, packed up our stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you fly back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did fly back. We flew back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was your first flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was my first flight. Yes. That was my first flight. Flew back, packed up the things, and then flew to New York City and convened as a group in New York City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, let's get there in a minute. But when you're doing training, had you been calling your family or writing them or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.266655703985645, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we did fly back. We flew back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was your first flight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was my first flight. Yes. That was my first flight. Flew back, packed up the things, and then flew to New York City and convened as a group in New York City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, let's get there in a minute. But when you're doing training, had you been calling your family or writing them or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd been, we'd been writing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you hearing from them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.74072855998405, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was my first flight. Yes. That was my first flight. Flew back, packed up the things, and then flew to New York City and convened as a group in New York City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, let's get there in a minute. But when you're doing training, had you been calling your family or writing them or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd been, we'd been writing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you hearing from them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I was hearing from not my parents, but from other family members. I was hearing from my grandmother, my grandmothers. I think both of my grandmothers. My aunts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what were they saying?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.267476177760056, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I'd been, we'd been writing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you hearing from them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I was hearing from not my parents, but from other family members. I was hearing from my grandmother, my grandmothers. I think both of my grandmothers. My aunts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what were they saying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they were just, you know, writing family stuff mostly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody was saying, you know, are you going to give this up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.852751308622284, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I was hearing from not my parents, but from other family members. I was hearing from my grandmother, my grandmothers. I think both of my grandmothers. My aunts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what were they saying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they were just, you know, writing family stuff mostly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody was saying, you know, are you going to give this up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. What happened to all the wedding presents?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.503057009580315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they were just, you know, writing family stuff mostly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody was saying, you know, are you going to give this up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. What happened to all the wedding presents?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, it was a very small wedding, so they were just sort of stored. They were just stored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just a side kind of question. How long were you back home in between? Two days, three days?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.114507788422572, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. What happened to all the wedding presents?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, it was a very small wedding, so they were just sort of stored. They were just stored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just a side kind of question. How long were you back home in between? Two days, three days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was at least a week, I can't remember, because I did see some family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you and Dave split and he went to his family and you went to yours?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.682786431580635, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, it was a very small wedding, so they were just sort of stored. They were just stored."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just a side kind of question. How long were you back home in between? Two days, three days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was at least a week, I can't remember, because I did see some family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you and Dave split and he went to his family and you went to yours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was just down at my family's for a day and mostly was at his family's and actually then with some of my other relatives. My parents didn't go to see me off at the plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any second thoughts at that point, you know? That maybe it's pretty far I'm going and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.904674606889673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was just down at my family's for a day and mostly was at his family's and actually then with some of my other relatives. My parents didn't go to see me off at the plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any second thoughts at that point, you know? That maybe it's pretty far I'm going and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But as far as the phone calls, you know, that was not that unusual because you have to remember that my parents didn't have a telephone. His parents did. But you know, people didn't make long distance calls like that back then. You know, it's different than now with cell phones and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Email even."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. No, I don't, no. We really didn't have any second thoughts. I don't think either one of us did. You know, we were excited about it. We were pumped up. We were ready to go. And you know, the only, you know, sad thing was when we went to the airport in Peoria, Illinois, you know, to fly out. My dad's parents were there. My grandmother in a wheelchair. She had several strokes and, um, my dad's youngest sister and her husband and her children. And Dave's parents were there. And, you know, but my parents were not there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it disapproval?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.560749563210747, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But as far as the phone calls, you know, that was not that unusual because you have to remember that my parents didn't have a telephone. His parents did. But you know, people didn't make long distance calls like that back then. You know, it's different than now with cell phones and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Email even."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. No, I don't, no. We really didn't have any second thoughts. I don't think either one of us did. You know, we were excited about it. We were pumped up. We were ready to go. And you know, the only, you know, sad thing was when we went to the airport in Peoria, Illinois, you know, to fly out. My dad's parents were there. My grandmother in a wheelchair. She had several strokes and, um, my dad's youngest sister and her husband and her children. And Dave's parents were there. And, you know, but my parents were not there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it disapproval?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Oh yes. And, you know, it was going to Ecuador, getting married so young, marrying him at that point in time, you know, just the whole."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just too much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.289721736900829, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. No, I don't, no. We really didn't have any second thoughts. I don't think either one of us did. You know, we were excited about it. We were pumped up. We were ready to go. And you know, the only, you know, sad thing was when we went to the airport in Peoria, Illinois, you know, to fly out. My dad's parents were there. My grandmother in a wheelchair. She had several strokes and, um, my dad's youngest sister and her husband and her children. And Dave's parents were there. And, you know, but my parents were not there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it disapproval?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Oh yes. And, you know, it was going to Ecuador, getting married so young, marrying him at that point in time, you know, just the whole."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just too much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just all of it combined. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So continue with the great adventure. You flew for the second time in your life."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.099690818778699, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Oh yes. And, you know, it was going to Ecuador, getting married so young, marrying him at that point in time, you know, just the whole."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just too much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just all of it combined. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So continue with the great adventure. You flew for the second time in your life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And ended up in New York City."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.999656465309664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just all of it combined. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So continue with the great adventure. You flew for the second time in your life."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And ended up in New York City."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ended up in New York City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where you had not been before."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.666284961455182, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And ended up in New York City."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ended up in New York City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where you had not been before."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where I'd not been before. And actually, we went in, as a lot of people did, a day or two early to see some of New York. We walked because everyone was on a tight budget and didn't have, you know, extra money. You know, we weren't, you know, I didn't have support from my family on this venture. So, you know, I was on my own totally. We walked from Central Park to the harbor to see the Statue of Liberty at a distance. It's a long way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes. Oh yes."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.4069832905057575, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ended up in New York City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where you had not been before."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where I'd not been before. And actually, we went in, as a lot of people did, a day or two early to see some of New York. We walked because everyone was on a tight budget and didn't have, you know, extra money. You know, we weren't, you know, I didn't have support from my family on this venture. So, you know, I was on my own totally. We walked from Central Park to the harbor to see the Statue of Liberty at a distance. It's a long way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes. Oh yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh huh. And then, you know, on the way down and back actually zigzagged a little bit seeing some other sights, you know, just generally took advantage of that day or whatever it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You remember what you stayed?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.118870322784175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where I'd not been before. And actually, we went in, as a lot of people did, a day or two early to see some of New York. We walked because everyone was on a tight budget and didn't have, you know, extra money. You know, we weren't, you know, I didn't have support from my family on this venture. So, you know, I was on my own totally. We walked from Central Park to the harbor to see the Statue of Liberty at a distance. It's a long way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes. Oh yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh huh. And then, you know, on the way down and back actually zigzagged a little bit seeing some other sights, you know, just generally took advantage of that day or whatever it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You remember what you stayed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a hotel right off Central Park. I don't remember the name of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps had arranged that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.9098559142046385, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh huh. And then, you know, on the way down and back actually zigzagged a little bit seeing some other sights, you know, just generally took advantage of that day or whatever it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You remember what you stayed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a hotel right off Central Park. I don't remember the name of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps had arranged that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps had arranged that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you could report in early and that was OK."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.677617682449598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a hotel right off Central Park. I don't remember the name of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps had arranged that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps had arranged that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you could report in early and that was OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think maybe we had to pay for one extra day or one extra night and we came up with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so New York was just the staging."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.530686313832886, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps had arranged that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you could report in early and that was OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think maybe we had to pay for one extra day or one extra night and we came up with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so New York was just the staging."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they really didn't do anything there except convene us and get us on the same flight. You know, there wasn't really staging per se there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By then, had those of you who were finally selected, been selected, had you come together at all as a group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.531711498559117, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they really didn't do anything there except convene us and get us on the same flight. You know, there wasn't really staging per se there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By then, had those of you who were finally selected, been selected, had you come together at all as a group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did some, you know, before. There were some friendships, particularly in these camp out groups, because that was the group that you really ended up knowing the best. The group that you were in your language training with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, you were sad when one of them was deselected or whatever. And because you had your language with them, you had your, um, your camp out with them. And actually, those groups might not have been. That may have been too separate. They may have evolved separately as the time went on, as people progressed differently in language, I'm not exactly sure. But those were the groups of people that you probably knew the best."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you close friends with any other married couples?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.479679442843464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did some, you know, before. There were some friendships, particularly in these camp out groups, because that was the group that you really ended up knowing the best. The group that you were in your language training with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, you were sad when one of them was deselected or whatever. And because you had your language with them, you had your, um, your camp out with them. And actually, those groups might not have been. That may have been too separate. They may have evolved separately as the time went on, as people progressed differently in language, I'm not exactly sure. But those were the groups of people that you probably knew the best."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you close friends with any other married couples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, there was one other married couple and they left early. She found out she was pregnant and they weren't in the training group. They were fairly close to our age, just a couple of few years older. Oh, actually, there was one other one. Yeah, somewhat close to. Actually, there was one that was in their forties that we were sort of close to. And then there were some single people that we were close to also. But you know, things were a little bit different because of the situation. But yes, by the time we got there, you know, we had a lot of fun together and you know, we'd all made it through the first stage and we were getting ready to go to the second phase of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So going down there was going to be additional training and you knew that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.53297715871496, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, you were sad when one of them was deselected or whatever. And because you had your language with them, you had your, um, your camp out with them. And actually, those groups might not have been. That may have been too separate. They may have evolved separately as the time went on, as people progressed differently in language, I'm not exactly sure. But those were the groups of people that you probably knew the best."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you close friends with any other married couples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, there was one other married couple and they left early. She found out she was pregnant and they weren't in the training group. They were fairly close to our age, just a couple of few years older. Oh, actually, there was one other one. Yeah, somewhat close to. Actually, there was one that was in their forties that we were sort of close to. And then there were some single people that we were close to also. But you know, things were a little bit different because of the situation. But yes, by the time we got there, you know, we had a lot of fun together and you know, we'd all made it through the first stage and we were getting ready to go to the second phase of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So going down there was going to be additional training and you knew that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't a charter flight, was it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.703307954127734, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, there was one other married couple and they left early. She found out she was pregnant and they weren't in the training group. They were fairly close to our age, just a couple of few years older. Oh, actually, there was one other one. Yeah, somewhat close to. Actually, there was one that was in their forties that we were sort of close to. And then there were some single people that we were close to also. But you know, things were a little bit different because of the situation. But yes, by the time we got there, you know, we had a lot of fun together and you know, we'd all made it through the first stage and we were getting ready to go to the second phase of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So going down there was going to be additional training and you knew that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't a charter flight, was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was commercial."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. How do you get to Ecuador?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:267", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.89256439347526, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn't a charter flight, was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was commercial."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. How do you get to Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Puerto Rico, that was the next stage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.793289374660813, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Puerto Rico, that was the next stage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Uh huh. That was the, um, Puerto Rico was the next stage of the training. That was during the time that they had the big training camp in Puerto Rico with the survival training and everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Outward Bound."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, which reminds me that I forgot to mention one aspect of the training in Bozeman. We had like one hour a day free time every afternoon right before dinner. And because I didn't know how to swim, I went and took a swimming lesson every day. We didn't have any pools in our area and so on, so I never learned to swim. And my uncle trying to teach me one time had thrown me into a strip mine pit and had to rescue me because, you know, of course, I was terrified. And so I was really afraid of water. I actually took a swimming lesson every day up until the very last day of training, and my camp out leaders were there. One of them was also the swimming instructor, and they were there, you know, cheering me on. Ecuador's only 20 feet away. Ecuador is only 15 feet away. Ecuador is only 12 feet away. Ecuador is only five feet away. You can do it!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that because they knew in Puerto Rico you were going to have to swim or just?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.43698819406757, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Uh huh. That was the, um, Puerto Rico was the next stage of the training. That was during the time that they had the big training camp in Puerto Rico with the survival training and everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Outward Bound."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, which reminds me that I forgot to mention one aspect of the training in Bozeman. We had like one hour a day free time every afternoon right before dinner. And because I didn't know how to swim, I went and took a swimming lesson every day. We didn't have any pools in our area and so on, so I never learned to swim. And my uncle trying to teach me one time had thrown me into a strip mine pit and had to rescue me because, you know, of course, I was terrified. And so I was really afraid of water. I actually took a swimming lesson every day up until the very last day of training, and my camp out leaders were there. One of them was also the swimming instructor, and they were there, you know, cheering me on. Ecuador's only 20 feet away. Ecuador is only 15 feet away. Ecuador is only 12 feet away. Ecuador is only five feet away. You can do it!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that because they knew in Puerto Rico you were going to have to swim or just?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they did have that survival training where they put them in the gunny sacks and threw them in the lake and everything. Actually, I was terrified."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not them. I mean, you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.946899005021692, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they did have that survival training where they put them in the gunny sacks and threw them in the lake and everything. Actually, I was terrified."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not them. I mean, you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the trainees, right. Where they put the trainees, except I didn't end up having to do it. That's another story. But, you know, we knew that that camp was the next stage of the training. And so, you know, passing the swimming test. Yeah, probably Dave and I were afraid that I wasn't going to make it through swimming if anything. And then that part was really terrifying to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Puerto Rico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. As we left New York. You know, can I do this? Because we were heading to this camp for more language training and this survival training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And describe the situation at the camp."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.996171611137891, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. As we left New York. You know, can I do this? Because we were heading to this camp for more language training and this survival training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And describe the situation at the camp."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, when we got there, they didn't take us to this camp. They took us to another nearby camp for the weekend and at the end of the weekend, they told us that the camp had too many people in it. And that they had decided to divide our group in half based on language ability, and that half of us would go out and spend the next month with an assigned extension agent out in the island."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And luckily, Dave and I were two of them that got to go out to an extension office, and we went out to the extension office in Aguas Buenas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Say that again."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.4401906790421, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, when we got there, they didn't take us to this camp. They took us to another nearby camp for the weekend and at the end of the weekend, they told us that the camp had too many people in it. And that they had decided to divide our group in half based on language ability, and that half of us would go out and spend the next month with an assigned extension agent out in the island."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And luckily, Dave and I were two of them that got to go out to an extension office, and we went out to the extension office in Aguas Buenas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Say that again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Aguas Buenas. Good water. Yeah, and I don't say it very well anymore. But anyway, we went out there and it was very undefined. They gave us some money and told us how to find the bus in that general direction and told us who to report to. And we got there luckily just before the extension office closed for the day. It was a long ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it just you and Dave going?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.933545198935667, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And luckily, Dave and I were two of them that got to go out to an extension office, and we went out to the extension office in Aguas Buenas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Say that again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Aguas Buenas. Good water. Yeah, and I don't say it very well anymore. But anyway, we went out there and it was very undefined. They gave us some money and told us how to find the bus in that general direction and told us who to report to. And we got there luckily just before the extension office closed for the day. It was a long ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it just you and Dave going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Well, other people went other places. You know, like half of the group went out more or less and half of them went to the camp."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the village you were going to, it was just the two of you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.370605776595186, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Aguas Buenas. Good water. Yeah, and I don't say it very well anymore. But anyway, we went out there and it was very undefined. They gave us some money and told us how to find the bus in that general direction and told us who to report to. And we got there luckily just before the extension office closed for the day. It was a long ways."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it just you and Dave going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Well, other people went other places. You know, like half of the group went out more or less and half of them went to the camp."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the village you were going to, it was just the two of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And so we got there and reported to the Puerto Rican ag agent and home economist in the town there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they expecting you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.8562286406613175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Well, other people went other places. You know, like half of the group went out more or less and half of them went to the camp."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the village you were going to, it was just the two of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And so we got there and reported to the Puerto Rican ag agent and home economist in the town there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they expecting you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they were expecting us, amazingly. And they had. So the first problem was, where are we going to stay? And they knew of a public health nurse who occasionally rented rooms, and the home economist had actually contacted her to see whether it might be possible. And so we went over and talked with her and rented a room from her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been given pocket money to cover this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.173587378512575, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And so we got there and reported to the Puerto Rican ag agent and home economist in the town there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they expecting you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they were expecting us, amazingly. And they had. So the first problem was, where are we going to stay? And they knew of a public health nurse who occasionally rented rooms, and the home economist had actually contacted her to see whether it might be possible. And so we went over and talked with her and rented a room from her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been given pocket money to cover this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had living money, a certain amount of money, to cover it and you know, it came out, you know, pretty, pretty well. And I think they didn't, you know, I think they hadn't had a lot of notice that this was happening. So they, I think, weren't really sure what to do with these people who didn't speak Spanish very well. Because now so many Puerto Ricans, you know, are very bilingual. But back then in this town, the home economists spoke English, some English. The ag agent did not, as I'm recalling. And the public health nurse with whom we stayed spoke some. And then there was a local bar owner in town who spoke some, and that was a pretty good sized town. That was the extent of it in that town. And so it was a good place to learn more Spanish because, you know, sort of sink or swim. You had to, you know, go and, you know, get your meals and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.353343454749759, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, first, it was very stressful, but you know, we managed. And toward the, in the beginning, he took us out on his visits out to the, he is the ag agent, to farmers and mostly we went with the ag agent. And then as time went on, he would do things like give us. It was really good experience, you know, increasing independence on doing things that we could sort of handle. And not any real teaching or anything. But the first thing was to send us out in the collectivos by ourselves, to get off at a certain place with a little hand-drawn map to hike up into the campo into a certain area. And he would explain, you know, that you can stop and have lunch at this school lunch program. And then I'd like for you to find and tell these people about this meeting that I'm having and, you know, the date and the time and place. And you know, it was a lot of verbal meeting notifications was what we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And on those excursions, you were pretty much operating in Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Oh yes, totally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Carried our dictionary around and struggled."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find yourself relying more on Dave because he was better? If he was."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.837048283055288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Oh yes, totally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Carried our dictionary around and struggled."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find yourself relying more on Dave because he was better? If he was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe. Yeah, he was a little bit better. Probably. Probably because of that, and also because he was a male in that culture. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. How long was this period, in this village Agua?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.737096645747269, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe. Yeah, he was a little bit better. Probably. Probably because of that, and also because he was a male in that culture. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. How long was this period, in this village Agua?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A month?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A month. And so then toward the end, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone come out to see you while you were there or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.263440717496966, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there a month."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A month?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A month. And so then toward the end, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone come out to see you while you were there or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're there for the month and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.848267463885517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A month. And so then toward the end, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone come out to see you while you were there or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're there for the month and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there for the month and it was sort of like, OK, you report to these people in this town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could have been doing nothing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.275852737650575, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're there for the month and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there for the month and it was sort of like, OK, you report to these people in this town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could have been doing nothing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You do what they tell you and you come back here in 30 days. Or 28 days or whatever it was. And anyway, toward the end of that time, they actually had us do some presentations. I remember doing a food demonstration with a 4-H club with the home economist, maybe a couple of them. And then I also remember us going out with the ag agent and doing some kind of presentation. I can't remember what anymore, but I remember we really worked on it. We struggled with every word, wrote it all out and everything. On the foods demonstration because you're demonstrating things, I wrote out and, you know, practiced it and everything. But you know, it isn't quite as verbal as when you're doing a lecture about some crop or whatever it was, I don't remember what we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your confidence growing that you could actually do this thing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6398363751673055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were there for the month and it was sort of like, OK, you report to these people in this town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could have been doing nothing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You do what they tell you and you come back here in 30 days. Or 28 days or whatever it was. And anyway, toward the end of that time, they actually had us do some presentations. I remember doing a food demonstration with a 4-H club with the home economist, maybe a couple of them. And then I also remember us going out with the ag agent and doing some kind of presentation. I can't remember what anymore, but I remember we really worked on it. We struggled with every word, wrote it all out and everything. On the foods demonstration because you're demonstrating things, I wrote out and, you know, practiced it and everything. But you know, it isn't quite as verbal as when you're doing a lecture about some crop or whatever it was, I don't remember what we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your confidence growing that you could actually do this thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, it was still, you know, I was still nervous. But yes, I felt that I was beginning to believe that, yes, I can do this. I mean, I could begin. I could get through all the daily things. I could get around in the collectivo. I could ask directions. I could find my way to places. You know, I could ask directions and understand them. I could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your understanding of this was somewhat like what you would be doing in Ecuador."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.044262639074784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You do what they tell you and you come back here in 30 days. Or 28 days or whatever it was. And anyway, toward the end of that time, they actually had us do some presentations. I remember doing a food demonstration with a 4-H club with the home economist, maybe a couple of them. And then I also remember us going out with the ag agent and doing some kind of presentation. I can't remember what anymore, but I remember we really worked on it. We struggled with every word, wrote it all out and everything. On the foods demonstration because you're demonstrating things, I wrote out and, you know, practiced it and everything. But you know, it isn't quite as verbal as when you're doing a lecture about some crop or whatever it was, I don't remember what we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your confidence growing that you could actually do this thing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, it was still, you know, I was still nervous. But yes, I felt that I was beginning to believe that, yes, I can do this. I mean, I could begin. I could get through all the daily things. I could get around in the collectivo. I could ask directions. I could find my way to places. You know, I could ask directions and understand them. I could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your understanding of this was somewhat like what you would be doing in Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew that I would be doing things, that my language would have to improve. You know, for the living and getting around, yes, that would be somewhat alike. But to really do the job that my language would have to improve a lot because it was at a very low level, but it was improving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they sent you out, did the training staff say, we're going to test your language when you come back? Was there any sense that this was going to be further selection?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.493625154527537, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, it was still, you know, I was still nervous. But yes, I felt that I was beginning to believe that, yes, I can do this. I mean, I could begin. I could get through all the daily things. I could get around in the collectivo. I could ask directions. I could find my way to places. You know, I could ask directions and understand them. I could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And your understanding of this was somewhat like what you would be doing in Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew that I would be doing things, that my language would have to improve. You know, for the living and getting around, yes, that would be somewhat alike. But to really do the job that my language would have to improve a lot because it was at a very low level, but it was improving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they sent you out, did the training staff say, we're going to test your language when you come back? Was there any sense that this was going to be further selection?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, we knew there'd be further selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is now your, you've been in the Peace Corps already."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.881805727252819, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I knew that I would be doing things, that my language would have to improve. You know, for the living and getting around, yes, that would be somewhat alike. But to really do the job that my language would have to improve a lot because it was at a very low level, but it was improving."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When they sent you out, did the training staff say, we're going to test your language when you come back? Was there any sense that this was going to be further selection?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, we knew there'd be further selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is now your, you've been in the Peace Corps already."}, {"role": "user", "content": "12 weeks, I think. Uh huh. And yes, there was a further selection. I can't remember if anyone was deselected at that stage or if everyone went on, it almost seems like maybe there was someone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the group, when you got to Puerto Rico, the group split into two. Some went to the village. Some went and had to do the Outward Bound training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.313117474725354, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, we knew there'd be further selection."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is now your, you've been in the Peace Corps already."}, {"role": "user", "content": "12 weeks, I think. Uh huh. And yes, there was a further selection. I can't remember if anyone was deselected at that stage or if everyone went on, it almost seems like maybe there was someone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the group, when you got to Puerto Rico, the group split into two. Some went to the village. Some went and had to do the Outward Bound training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there resentment? A lot of those who did Outward Bound or was it, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.792352749694838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "12 weeks, I think. Uh huh. And yes, there was a further selection. I can't remember if anyone was deselected at that stage or if everyone went on, it almost seems like maybe there was someone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the group, when you got to Puerto Rico, the group split into two. Some went to the village. Some went and had to do the Outward Bound training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there resentment? A lot of those who did Outward Bound or was it, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know that it was a joyous experience."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.324836388549819, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there resentment? A lot of those who did Outward Bound or was it, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know that it was a joyous experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I don't know. You know, I don't really know either. I really don't know that. I really don't know. I know that I was just thrilled that I didn't have to go do it. And the interesting thing was they spent the bottom half to the Outward Bound camp because they were had the formal Spanish training, you know, continuing there. And those of us who went to the village who had tested in the top half on the language exam. And it came back and there was an even bigger spread on the language ability when we came back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which says something about how you learn a language."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.916484876166466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know that it was a joyous experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I don't know. You know, I don't really know either. I really don't know that. I really don't know. I know that I was just thrilled that I didn't have to go do it. And the interesting thing was they spent the bottom half to the Outward Bound camp because they were had the formal Spanish training, you know, continuing there. And those of us who went to the village who had tested in the top half on the language exam. And it came back and there was an even bigger spread on the language ability when we came back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which says something about how you learn a language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because they were around other people who spoke English. I mean, we were in this town where, you know, we could go in and drink in the bar and talk to the bartender. And that was about it. In English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now at the end of the four weeks, were you all gathered again at the camp or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.462760973518296, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I don't know. You know, I don't really know either. I really don't know that. I really don't know. I know that I was just thrilled that I didn't have to go do it. And the interesting thing was they spent the bottom half to the Outward Bound camp because they were had the formal Spanish training, you know, continuing there. And those of us who went to the village who had tested in the top half on the language exam. And it came back and there was an even bigger spread on the language ability when we came back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which says something about how you learn a language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because they were around other people who spoke English. I mean, we were in this town where, you know, we could go in and drink in the bar and talk to the bartender. And that was about it. In English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now at the end of the four weeks, were you all gathered again at the camp or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember if it was at the Outward Bound camp or the one we were at originally, but anyway, we gathered in that same area, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people are now left in the program?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.069734415020329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because they were around other people who spoke English. I mean, we were in this town where, you know, we could go in and drink in the bar and talk to the bartender. And that was about it. In English."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now at the end of the four weeks, were you all gathered again at the camp or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember if it was at the Outward Bound camp or the one we were at originally, but anyway, we gathered in that same area, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people are now left in the program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there were about 47 of us that went to Ecuador. I can't really remember if anyone was deselected there. I think there might have been, but I'm not positive anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But when you got back together, there must have been a lot of storytelling about sharing, comparing experiences?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.744149350022587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember if it was at the Outward Bound camp or the one we were at originally, but anyway, we gathered in that same area, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people are now left in the program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there were about 47 of us that went to Ecuador. I can't really remember if anyone was deselected there. I think there might have been, but I'm not positive anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But when you got back together, there must have been a lot of storytelling about sharing, comparing experiences?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. You know, who. I remember, I was even more grateful that I didn't have to go to that camp and get tied in a gunny sack and have to get out after they threw me in the lake. I would have drowned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah. But nobody had drowned."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.493499277802874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think there were about 47 of us that went to Ecuador. I can't really remember if anyone was deselected there. I think there might have been, but I'm not positive anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But when you got back together, there must have been a lot of storytelling about sharing, comparing experiences?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. You know, who. I remember, I was even more grateful that I didn't have to go to that camp and get tied in a gunny sack and have to get out after they threw me in the lake. I would have drowned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah. But nobody had drowned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nobody had drowned. But, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their Spanish did not improve that much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.32611030866986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. You know, who. I remember, I was even more grateful that I didn't have to go to that camp and get tied in a gunny sack and have to get out after they threw me in the lake. I would have drowned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah. But nobody had drowned."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nobody had drowned. But, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their Spanish did not improve that much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it had improved, but not as much as the ones who were out on their own using it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So is there, are you finally sworn in as volunteers or? You're still in Puerto Rico. It's now at the end of the four weeks."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.251233676299844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nobody had drowned. But, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Their Spanish did not improve that much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it had improved, but not as much as the ones who were out on their own using it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So is there, are you finally sworn in as volunteers or? You're still in Puerto Rico. It's now at the end of the four weeks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we actually had our swearing-in in Ecuador. When we got to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's get you out of Puerto Rico. At the end of the four weeks, there was nothing further."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.279148529222049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it had improved, but not as much as the ones who were out on their own using it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So is there, are you finally sworn in as volunteers or? You're still in Puerto Rico. It's now at the end of the four weeks."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we actually had our swearing-in in Ecuador. When we got to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's get you out of Puerto Rico. At the end of the four weeks, there was nothing further."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we went back to the, I believe it was to the camp. We went back and I believe it was to the camp. I believe we had another language exam because, you know, we were told somewhere along the line that, you know, the gap was even bigger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they may have been studying the group as learning language."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:341", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.310165032468943, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we actually had our swearing-in in Ecuador. When we got to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's get you out of Puerto Rico. At the end of the four weeks, there was nothing further."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we went back to the, I believe it was to the camp. We went back and I believe it was to the camp. I believe we had another language exam because, you know, we were told somewhere along the line that, you know, the gap was even bigger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they may have been studying the group as learning language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were. That was part of it, in the early days, you know, they didn't have a model for the training for Peace Corps. You know, they set up some of these things like these hike outs and so on, probably based on military training. And some of the physical training and the schedule and the discipline and so on. You know, I think that was probably the only model they had. And so they were looking at it as they went and modifying it as they went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you finally fly down to Ecuador?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.23351670274327, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we went back to the, I believe it was to the camp. We went back and I believe it was to the camp. I believe we had another language exam because, you know, we were told somewhere along the line that, you know, the gap was even bigger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they may have been studying the group as learning language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were. That was part of it, in the early days, you know, they didn't have a model for the training for Peace Corps. You know, they set up some of these things like these hike outs and so on, probably based on military training. And some of the physical training and the schedule and the discipline and so on. You know, I think that was probably the only model they had. And so they were looking at it as they went and modifying it as they went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you finally fly down to Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we fly to Ecuador. Actually, we landed, we had a stop in Caracas, Venezuela, and this was when it really hit me. I don't know about this. We landed in the airport, just supposed to be a brief stop, and there were military police with carbines all over the place. And we were there a long, long time, and at first, you know, couldn't find out what was going on. And apparently there had been sort of a terrorist incident at the airport."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were on a commercial flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.259463003048078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were. That was part of it, in the early days, you know, they didn't have a model for the training for Peace Corps. You know, they set up some of these things like these hike outs and so on, probably based on military training. And some of the physical training and the schedule and the discipline and so on. You know, I think that was probably the only model they had. And so they were looking at it as they went and modifying it as they went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you finally fly down to Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we fly to Ecuador. Actually, we landed, we had a stop in Caracas, Venezuela, and this was when it really hit me. I don't know about this. We landed in the airport, just supposed to be a brief stop, and there were military police with carbines all over the place. And we were there a long, long time, and at first, you know, couldn't find out what was going on. And apparently there had been sort of a terrorist incident at the airport."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were on a commercial flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were on a commercial flight. You know someone flooding the runway with gasoline or some, I don't know exactly. You know, I never was real clear on exactly what it happened, but we were there longer than we were supposed to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sitting on the plane?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.399403336720086, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we fly to Ecuador. Actually, we landed, we had a stop in Caracas, Venezuela, and this was when it really hit me. I don't know about this. We landed in the airport, just supposed to be a brief stop, and there were military police with carbines all over the place. And we were there a long, long time, and at first, you know, couldn't find out what was going on. And apparently there had been sort of a terrorist incident at the airport."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were on a commercial flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were on a commercial flight. You know someone flooding the runway with gasoline or some, I don't know exactly. You know, I never was real clear on exactly what it happened, but we were there longer than we were supposed to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sitting on the plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were in the terminal. But anyway, there were these MPs with, you know, weapons all over the place and I'm going, oh my gosh, what have I gotten myself into?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had Peace Corps staff accompanying you, didn't you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.44378148524454, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were on a commercial flight. You know someone flooding the runway with gasoline or some, I don't know exactly. You know, I never was real clear on exactly what it happened, but we were there longer than we were supposed to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sitting on the plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were in the terminal. But anyway, there were these MPs with, you know, weapons all over the place and I'm going, oh my gosh, what have I gotten myself into?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had Peace Corps staff accompanying you, didn't you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the head of Heifer Project was with us. I think just the head of Heifer Project and the person who worked for the Ecuadorian extension service. I think they may have been. At least the head of Heifer Project. His name was Don Schultz, and he was with us, and he had spent many years working in Latin America. And he."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the whole period up to this time, had you met anyone from Peace Corps, Washington? Had anyone come out and talked to you or let you know or say anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.381979428049489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we were in the terminal. But anyway, there were these MPs with, you know, weapons all over the place and I'm going, oh my gosh, what have I gotten myself into?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had Peace Corps staff accompanying you, didn't you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the head of Heifer Project was with us. I think just the head of Heifer Project and the person who worked for the Ecuadorian extension service. I think they may have been. At least the head of Heifer Project. His name was Don Schultz, and he was with us, and he had spent many years working in Latin America. And he."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the whole period up to this time, had you met anyone from Peace Corps, Washington? Had anyone come out and talked to you or let you know or say anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't think so. No, I believe it was all the training staff and the Heifer Project staff. Because, you know, we always, I think that's probably why we always identified more closely with Heifer Project staff than with Peace Corps staff. Although we did get well acquainted with the Peace Corps director for the coast, which they now call an APCD, I believe, or something like that. James Pines. But we identified with Heifer Project and the Ecuadorian extension service. Although we definitely, you know, identified ourselves as Peace Corps volunteers, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the Venezuelan military finally let you go."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.202199364499432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the head of Heifer Project was with us. I think just the head of Heifer Project and the person who worked for the Ecuadorian extension service. I think they may have been. At least the head of Heifer Project. His name was Don Schultz, and he was with us, and he had spent many years working in Latin America. And he."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the whole period up to this time, had you met anyone from Peace Corps, Washington? Had anyone come out and talked to you or let you know or say anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't think so. No, I believe it was all the training staff and the Heifer Project staff. Because, you know, we always, I think that's probably why we always identified more closely with Heifer Project staff than with Peace Corps staff. Although we did get well acquainted with the Peace Corps director for the coast, which they now call an APCD, I believe, or something like that. James Pines. But we identified with Heifer Project and the Ecuadorian extension service. Although we definitely, you know, identified ourselves as Peace Corps volunteers, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the Venezuelan military finally let you go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they weren't really holding us, I think they were keeping us in a secure area, but it was a little scary. Anyway, things are finally safe for the plane to depart. We flew on to Ecuador without further incident. And then when we got there, we were greeted by some Peace Corps officials from Ecuador and Galo Plaza, who was a former president of Ecuador, who was very involved in agriculture, you know, in Ecuador and who later was Secretary General of the U.N. Or maybe previously. Anyway, he was very involved in international, very, very esteemed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You weren't, it wasn't the first ag extension group, was it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.113554849443812, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't think so. No, I believe it was all the training staff and the Heifer Project staff. Because, you know, we always, I think that's probably why we always identified more closely with Heifer Project staff than with Peace Corps staff. Although we did get well acquainted with the Peace Corps director for the coast, which they now call an APCD, I believe, or something like that. James Pines. But we identified with Heifer Project and the Ecuadorian extension service. Although we definitely, you know, identified ourselves as Peace Corps volunteers, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the Venezuelan military finally let you go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they weren't really holding us, I think they were keeping us in a secure area, but it was a little scary. Anyway, things are finally safe for the plane to depart. We flew on to Ecuador without further incident. And then when we got there, we were greeted by some Peace Corps officials from Ecuador and Galo Plaza, who was a former president of Ecuador, who was very involved in agriculture, you know, in Ecuador and who later was Secretary General of the U.N. Or maybe previously. Anyway, he was very involved in international, very, very esteemed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You weren't, it wasn't the first ag extension group, was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were the first ag extension group in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. The previous group had been what?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.015060943826457, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they weren't really holding us, I think they were keeping us in a secure area, but it was a little scary. Anyway, things are finally safe for the plane to depart. We flew on to Ecuador without further incident. And then when we got there, we were greeted by some Peace Corps officials from Ecuador and Galo Plaza, who was a former president of Ecuador, who was very involved in agriculture, you know, in Ecuador and who later was Secretary General of the U.N. Or maybe previously. Anyway, he was very involved in international, very, very esteemed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You weren't, it wasn't the first ag extension group, was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were the first ag extension group in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. The previous group had been what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there were two previous groups that went in, all of us within about three weeks of each other. And one was, I believe, education and one may have been like public health or something such as that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of you were, Peace Corps in Ecuador was a relatively new thing, so just in a few months."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.016734382029396, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we were the first ag extension group in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. The previous group had been what?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there were two previous groups that went in, all of us within about three weeks of each other. And one was, I believe, education and one may have been like public health or something such as that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of you were, Peace Corps in Ecuador was a relatively new thing, so just in a few months."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually probably not even a few months, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, less. Where had the others trained, you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.01859375781044, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there were two previous groups that went in, all of us within about three weeks of each other. And one was, I believe, education and one may have been like public health or something such as that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of you were, Peace Corps in Ecuador was a relatively new thing, so just in a few months."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually probably not even a few months, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, less. Where had the others trained, you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't know. We didn't have much contact with the other groups. Actually, I knew some of them in Guayaquil when I was located there but didn't have a lot of contact with them. You know, I was involved with the Ecuadorian extension staff and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's wait."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.1317708420116, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually probably not even a few months, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, less. Where had the others trained, you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't know. We didn't have much contact with the other groups. Actually, I knew some of them in Guayaquil when I was located there but didn't have a lot of contact with them. You know, I was involved with the Ecuadorian extension staff and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's wait."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, I didn't have a lot of contact with the other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Big reception coming in."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:365", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.368634268901777, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't know. We didn't have much contact with the other groups. Actually, I knew some of them in Guayaquil when I was located there but didn't have a lot of contact with them. You know, I was involved with the Ecuadorian extension staff and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's wait."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, I didn't have a lot of contact with the other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Big reception coming in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which must have made you feel good. Someone really wanted to have you there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:367", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.742926965446419, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you know, I didn't have a lot of contact with the other."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Big reception coming in."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which must have made you feel good. Someone really wanted to have you there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Somebody wanted us there. You know, here's this former president who was very esteemed and, you know, these officials."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he wasn't going to throw you in a lake."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:369", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.26991885049602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which must have made you feel good. Someone really wanted to have you there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Somebody wanted us there. You know, here's this former president who was very esteemed and, you know, these officials."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he wasn't going to throw you in a lake."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I didn't have to do that, and I didn't have to swim anymore. I didn't have to get in a gunny sack."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your, do you recall what your feeling was? You know, you're in Ecuador and this is where you're going to be."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.274224737838775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, drop offs of thousands of feet and, you know, single lane wide and you met other vehicles and so on. Then when we started heading down to the coast, you know, this is the highway between the two main cities in the country. The capital and Guayaquil. Quito the capital, and Guayaquil. And they were working on the road between Quito and Santo Domingo. And it was just totally, you know, mud and dirt, you know. It wasn't the rainy season or it would have been really bad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were you traveling in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A bus. We were, they still had us all together in a bus. It was a bus of just us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had your Bozeman training been some acclimatizing to being at altitudes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there may have been some of that with that hike, because Bozeman, you know, is at a high altitude. But then we were in Puerto Rico for a month or so, you know, if we'd acclimated, we de- acclimated during that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But if you're up in the Andes, you're up at ten thousand feet plus."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:379", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.304694153154195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A bus. We were, they still had us all together in a bus. It was a bus of just us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had your Bozeman training been some acclimatizing to being at altitudes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there may have been some of that with that hike, because Bozeman, you know, is at a high altitude. But then we were in Puerto Rico for a month or so, you know, if we'd acclimated, we de- acclimated during that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But if you're up in the Andes, you're up at ten thousand feet plus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Quito is at ten thousand feet, the capital city, and then you go up from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have felt it when you arrived."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.449660170171327, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there may have been some of that with that hike, because Bozeman, you know, is at a high altitude. But then we were in Puerto Rico for a month or so, you know, if we'd acclimated, we de- acclimated during that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But if you're up in the Andes, you're up at ten thousand feet plus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. Quito is at ten thousand feet, the capital city, and then you go up from there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You must have felt it when you arrived."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, you know, I was pretty young, so I don't remember really. I'm sure I would now. But I don't remember it that much. But anyway, then we stopped and we saw some projects in the Santo Domingo area, which is you're getting down into the banana region. We stopped at an Ecuadorian experiment station that's tied to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:385", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.431679222433738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, you know, I was pretty young, so I don't remember really. I'm sure I would now. But I don't remember it that much. But anyway, then we stopped and we saw some projects in the Santo Domingo area, which is you're getting down into the banana region. We stopped at an Ecuadorian experiment station that's tied to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the whole group still. That's tied to their Department of Agriculture, partway down where they did cacao research and maybe coffee. I think mostly cacao. And then we finally arrived in Guayaquil, and they put us up in a hotel. And the day we got there, the night we got there, was the Bay of Pigs invasion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was a big demonstration in front of our hotel, and we all thought it was because of us. But they didn't really know we were there. Probably didn't even know what Peace Corps was. But it was scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah. Who was reassuring you, who was sort of leading you to say, don't worry, or this is what's going on?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:387", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 10.47964358048193, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, the whole group still. That's tied to their Department of Agriculture, partway down where they did cacao research and maybe coffee. I think mostly cacao. And then we finally arrived in Guayaquil, and they put us up in a hotel. And the day we got there, the night we got there, was the Bay of Pigs invasion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was a big demonstration in front of our hotel, and we all thought it was because of us. But they didn't really know we were there. Probably didn't even know what Peace Corps was. But it was scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah. Who was reassuring you, who was sort of leading you to say, don't worry, or this is what's going on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as I'm recalling, it was probably Don Shultz who was the head of the Heifer Project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you hear about Bay of Pigs? Did Don tell you or you hear it on the radio and you read about it in the paper?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.088492867202146, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was a big demonstration in front of our hotel, and we all thought it was because of us. But they didn't really know we were there. Probably didn't even know what Peace Corps was. But it was scary."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah. Who was reassuring you, who was sort of leading you to say, don't worry, or this is what's going on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as I'm recalling, it was probably Don Shultz who was the head of the Heifer Project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you hear about Bay of Pigs? Did Don tell you or you hear it on the radio and you read about it in the paper?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We probably read about it. And he may have told us. He may have told us and then, you know, we didn't. [tape break] OK, so we arrived in Guayaquil and we were in a hotel and there was a demonstration in front of the hotel, and it also happened that it was the day of the Bay of Pigs invasion. And we thought that the demonstration was a demonstration against Peace Corp. It was generally anti- American, but it was not against Peace Corps, as it turned out. I don't think they really knew we were there. And the director of Heifer Project for Ecuador was with us. I don't remember if there was anyone from Peace Corps per se, but I think he was with us during this whole time, and had had many, many years in Ecuador prior to this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is just an introductory tour."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:391", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.764992074669051, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as I'm recalling, it was probably Don Shultz who was the head of the Heifer Project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you hear about Bay of Pigs? Did Don tell you or you hear it on the radio and you read about it in the paper?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We probably read about it. And he may have told us. He may have told us and then, you know, we didn't. [tape break] OK, so we arrived in Guayaquil and we were in a hotel and there was a demonstration in front of the hotel, and it also happened that it was the day of the Bay of Pigs invasion. And we thought that the demonstration was a demonstration against Peace Corp. It was generally anti- American, but it was not against Peace Corps, as it turned out. I don't think they really knew we were there. And the director of Heifer Project for Ecuador was with us. I don't remember if there was anyone from Peace Corps per se, but I think he was with us during this whole time, and had had many, many years in Ecuador prior to this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is just an introductory tour."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, this was an introductory tour, sort of an orientation, you know, a second orientation to agriculture in the country and the people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is your second or third day in the country maybe?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:395", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.006163055146976, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, this was an introductory tour, sort of an orientation, you know, a second orientation to agriculture in the country and the people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is your second or third day in the country maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, we'd been in the Andes for probably a couple of weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then we'd been, it had taking us several days to come down by the time we went down through Santo Domingo and stopped at the experiment station. You know, it wasn't really that far, but you know, by the time you make the stops and you know, you do all the appropriate social protocol, you know, and all that kind of thing. And the roads aren't that good. It takes a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And these were really just take a look at kind of visits. There were no training sessions or anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.673514505718862, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, we'd been in the Andes for probably a couple of weeks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then we'd been, it had taking us several days to come down by the time we went down through Santo Domingo and stopped at the experiment station. You know, it wasn't really that far, but you know, by the time you make the stops and you know, you do all the appropriate social protocol, you know, and all that kind of thing. And the roads aren't that good. It takes a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And these were really just take a look at kind of visits. There were no training sessions or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no training sessions. No real training sessions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened after Guayaquil?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:399", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.303905006354292, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then we'd been, it had taking us several days to come down by the time we went down through Santo Domingo and stopped at the experiment station. You know, it wasn't really that far, but you know, by the time you make the stops and you know, you do all the appropriate social protocol, you know, and all that kind of thing. And the roads aren't that good. It takes a while."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And these were really just take a look at kind of visits. There were no training sessions or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no training sessions. No real training sessions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened after Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was then where we were dispersed to our sites. And you know, people were, I guess, given their final assignment. Maybe that was where we were given our final assignment. And you caught a bus and you know, you went there. Except our final assignment was Guayaquil initially. My first, our first assignment was in the extension office in Guayas province, which was in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did Heifer have an office in Guayaquil?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.004338895949213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no training sessions. No real training sessions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then what happened after Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was then where we were dispersed to our sites. And you know, people were, I guess, given their final assignment. Maybe that was where we were given our final assignment. And you caught a bus and you know, you went there. Except our final assignment was Guayaquil initially. My first, our first assignment was in the extension office in Guayas province, which was in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did Heifer have an office in Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, we were assigned to the Ecuadorian extension agents in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did Bob take you and introduce you to that person?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:405", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.64733197030767, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, we were assigned to the Ecuadorian extension agents in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did Bob take you and introduce you to that person?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don, sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't I don't remember. I'm not really sure. Um, we may have, but I don't really remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember? Yeah, go ahead."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:407", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.608146633675188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Don."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don, sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't I don't remember. I'm not really sure. Um, we may have, but I don't really remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember? Yeah, go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, the extension offices were all located in the capitals of each province. So Guayas province, Guayaquil was the capital, and so it was the extension office for the whole area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about your first week on your own now."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:409", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.56460737075021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't I don't remember. I'm not really sure. Um, we may have, but I don't really remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember? Yeah, go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, the extension offices were all located in the capitals of each province. So Guayas province, Guayaquil was the capital, and so it was the extension office for the whole area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about your first week on your own now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, we stayed initially. We moved out of the nicer hotel into a boarding house while we tried to find another place to live. And so we stayed in this boarding house for a while. I don't know, maybe a week or more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the money arrangement?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:411", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.405119300833567, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, the extension offices were all located in the capitals of each province. So Guayas province, Guayaquil was the capital, and so it was the extension office for the whole area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about your first week on your own now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, we stayed initially. We moved out of the nicer hotel into a boarding house while we tried to find another place to live. And so we stayed in this boarding house for a while. I don't know, maybe a week or more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the money arrangement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they gave you, you had a living allowance. It was about a hundred dollars a month, which was, you know, really fairly good. I mean, it was somewhat comparable to the Ecuadorean extension agents, but maybe slightly better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did you guys get two hundred?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:413", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.33902144537063, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, we stayed initially. We moved out of the nicer hotel into a boarding house while we tried to find another place to live. And so we stayed in this boarding house for a while. I don't know, maybe a week or more."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the money arrangement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they gave you, you had a living allowance. It was about a hundred dollars a month, which was, you know, really fairly good. I mean, it was somewhat comparable to the Ecuadorean extension agents, but maybe slightly better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did you guys get two hundred?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we got two hundred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they simply give you a bundle of money?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:415", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.265579383745145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they gave you, you had a living allowance. It was about a hundred dollars a month, which was, you know, really fairly good. I mean, it was somewhat comparable to the Ecuadorean extension agents, but maybe slightly better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did you guys get two hundred?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we got two hundred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they simply give you a bundle of money?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, almost. We went to a certain bank in Guayaquil each month to pick it up in cash. People didn't operate with checkbooks and so on there. You couldn't really write checks in places, and so, you know, you had to get it in cash. And then, you know, you've got this big bunch of cash that you're hoping doesn't get stolen. And so that's how we operated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long are we at the boarding house?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:417", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.18397709305016, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we got two hundred."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did they simply give you a bundle of money?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, almost. We went to a certain bank in Guayaquil each month to pick it up in cash. People didn't operate with checkbooks and so on there. You couldn't really write checks in places, and so, you know, you had to get it in cash. And then, you know, you've got this big bunch of cash that you're hoping doesn't get stolen. And so that's how we operated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long are we at the boarding house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I'd say a week or two, a couple of weeks, probably."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were you doing during that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:425", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.127994350023105, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it wasn't. So we had to sort of gather up furniture and everything. I mean, that was the one thing that Peace Corps didn't do that was, you know, really hard. That came as a big surprise because I mean, it didn't even have a stove. So one of the first things we had to get was a mattress and a kerosene stove. And so, you know, it took us a while to get things like a table and chairs and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they give you a settling in allowance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, no, it was just a monthly living allowance, you sort of had to get it out of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't get a special?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You didn't get a, no. Because a lot of them, a lot of the people in our group were teaching at. Some of them, well, a couple of them were teaching at agricultural schools and then some of them were assigned to extension offices. And the single people, a lot of them were living with families. So I think that, you know, they hadn't really thought about married couples that much. I think it was the married couples that had this kind of problem. Excuse me. [coughs]\n\nWe were talking about settling in and we sort of gradually acquired, you know, things to function. And anyway, meanwhile, then the extension agents also covered little towns. The home economist did quite a few groups right there in the city of Guayaquil, but she also went out to other towns with both 4-F clubs, which is Ecuador's equivalent of 4-H, and then training for women, women's groups. And so we started going out with various people, not just the ag agent, but some of the specialists."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What would bring a group of Ecuadorians together? Your early work you were doing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:431", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.547317352569415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, some of the work was done one-on-one and then some of it was done in groups and the ag work was done more one-on-one, at least initially. And the more of home ec and the 4-H groups in some places, there were some semi organized groups. They would, um, we would go in and contact a lot of times the teacher in the school. Yeah. And it wasn't like the 4-H groups here in the States where you have this system of a county staff training the volunteers and the volunteers doing it. It was more that the local person who you convinced or decided that, you know, this was a good thing for kids to do, would be the one who would sort of round up people, convene them, remind them, you know, provide the place, either the school or the home or whatever. And then you would come in with the activities and the training or whatever it was that you were going to do that day for them. And so with the kids, you know, you work through these local contacts, that you would convince and then would convene."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. All through this period, you're working with a counterpart. You're not on your own?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially. Actually, not for very long. Fairly soon, we were out on our own taking, you know, busses for hours out here and there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did all this have to do with Heifer, the Heifer Project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, a lot of what, some of what we were doing, you know, Heifer does a lot of animal work, but Heifer also, you know, was very involved with the Ecuadorian extension service. And so the programs of the Ecuadorian extension service, the 4-H club, the 4-F club there, is one of their programs and you know, it may have animal aspects. It may have crop aspects, it may have nutrition aspects, you know, food and nutrition, sewing and the home ec, you know, hygiene."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the overall goal of the Heifer Project is to help with development?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:433", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.830352613966017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Initially. Actually, not for very long. Fairly soon, we were out on our own taking, you know, busses for hours out here and there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did all this have to do with Heifer, the Heifer Project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, a lot of what, some of what we were doing, you know, Heifer does a lot of animal work, but Heifer also, you know, was very involved with the Ecuadorian extension service. And so the programs of the Ecuadorian extension service, the 4-H club, the 4-F club there, is one of their programs and you know, it may have animal aspects. It may have crop aspects, it may have nutrition aspects, you know, food and nutrition, sewing and the home ec, you know, hygiene."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So the overall goal of the Heifer Project is to help with development?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The overall goal of Heifer was to, you know, upgrade the nutrition and diet of the people, originally through animals, but also through sanitation with the extensions. But you know, their real goal is through, you know, upgrading the diet through animal production. But the home economics plays into that. But initially, yes, I always went out with someone. But it wasn't all that long that, you know, I would be taking a bus out by myself. Or Dave and I would be taking one out and maybe I would be meeting with the girls while he would be meeting with the boys. Or I would be meeting with women while he was making, you know, individual visits with farmers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to set up those meetings at a distance so that when you went?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:445", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.557920096428422, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. Sometimes I went out with him, sometimes I went out with Juana Mendoza, the home economist. And probably within the, you know, within five or six months, I was at times going out by myself, if not sooner. Uh huh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was considered proper for a woman alone to go out and do the extension work both either an American or an Ecuadorian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How is your Spanish after five months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was improving. I still, you know, I was still struggling at that time. I would get words mixed up and, you know, I would have to ask. I was certainly good enough, though, that I could, you know, explain things with lots of words. Explain a simple thing like if I didn't know. You know, you just explain it with more words like, well, we've got this glass here, you know, say I couldn't remember the word glass, which of course I could, because that's a very simple word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the thing with the water?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:447", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.842133440476024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How is your Spanish after five months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was improving. I still, you know, I was still struggling at that time. I would get words mixed up and, you know, I would have to ask. I was certainly good enough, though, that I could, you know, explain things with lots of words. Explain a simple thing like if I didn't know. You know, you just explain it with more words like, well, we've got this glass here, you know, say I couldn't remember the word glass, which of course I could, because that's a very simple word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the thing with the water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The thing, yeah, that you drink from, you know, that kind of thing. So I was, you know, I would still do some of that at that point in time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that amuse your audiences?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:449", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.26903715608447, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was improving. I still, you know, I was still struggling at that time. I would get words mixed up and, you know, I would have to ask. I was certainly good enough, though, that I could, you know, explain things with lots of words. Explain a simple thing like if I didn't know. You know, you just explain it with more words like, well, we've got this glass here, you know, say I couldn't remember the word glass, which of course I could, because that's a very simple word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the thing with the water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The thing, yeah, that you drink from, you know, that kind of thing. So I was, you know, I would still do some of that at that point in time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that amuse your audiences?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, at times they did. And particularly at times I would get two very similar words mixed up. Um, cansada and casada. Casada was married and cansada was tired. And I would, when I was tired, I would get those two words mixed up and they would laugh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any point in the first couple of months where you thought to yourself, oh my God, we're here, you know, we're Peace Corps volunteers, it's happening, it's what I wanted. Was there any feeling of that sort?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:451", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.52115239564941, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The thing, yeah, that you drink from, you know, that kind of thing. So I was, you know, I would still do some of that at that point in time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that amuse your audiences?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, at times they did. And particularly at times I would get two very similar words mixed up. Um, cansada and casada. Casada was married and cansada was tired. And I would, when I was tired, I would get those two words mixed up and they would laugh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any point in the first couple of months where you thought to yourself, oh my God, we're here, you know, we're Peace Corps volunteers, it's happening, it's what I wanted. Was there any feeling of that sort?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, of course, in the beginning there still the excitement for the first few months. And then, you know, I still, even now, I talk with a lot of the students that I know who go into Peace Corps, I stay in touch with them when they go and I always write them a long letter about the six month point. Now an email, but um yeah, I hit that slump probably at about six months. Like, I think that was where I, you know, I went from being, you know, fascinated with the differences to disillusion with some things. Like, you know, how can I ever accomplish anything here? The sanitation problems, you know, are so bad. You know, people don't understand that to get ahead, you have to help yourself. And some of those kinds of things, like the volunteer ethic that we were talking about, that, you know, that wasn't a part of the culture, and I'm not sure I fully understood the whole thing then. But then I did find some people who were willing to do things to help their own communities later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Generally speaking, how was your and Dave's health during the first six months or so?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:455", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.989077031665937, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you know, of course, in the beginning there still the excitement for the first few months. And then, you know, I still, even now, I talk with a lot of the students that I know who go into Peace Corps, I stay in touch with them when they go and I always write them a long letter about the six month point. Now an email, but um yeah, I hit that slump probably at about six months. Like, I think that was where I, you know, I went from being, you know, fascinated with the differences to disillusion with some things. Like, you know, how can I ever accomplish anything here? The sanitation problems, you know, are so bad. You know, people don't understand that to get ahead, you have to help yourself. And some of those kinds of things, like the volunteer ethic that we were talking about, that, you know, that wasn't a part of the culture, and I'm not sure I fully understood the whole thing then. But then I did find some people who were willing to do things to help their own communities later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Generally speaking, how was your and Dave's health during the first six months or so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, well, we did very well. Actually, I got food poisoning in Puerto Rico in the training there when I was there out in the town and then probably at about the six month, maybe about, no. Actually, it was probably longer than that. Maybe about six or eight months, I had one bout with food poisoning in Guayaquil. I got too confident and I was eating lots of street food. And as a lot of Peace Corps volunteers do. And I was very, very sick and ended up. This was why I was still living, we were still living in Guayaquil, and I ended up in the Peace Corps doctor's sick room in his house in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, there was a Peace Corps doctor in Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a doctor in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember his name?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:459", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.986514853908563, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a doctor in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember his name?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't. But I remember that another Peace Corps volunteer and Dave and I were supposed to go up to Esmeraldas to take some things up to a Peace Corps volunteer up there. Someone who'd worked for Heifer, a Peace Corps Heifer, had left the country. And actually, Dave and I had been given his vehicle so that we could get around to these towns that were so spread out a lot easier, because we were spending lots and lots of time on busses. And so we were supposed, the three of us were supposed to take some things. So I had been out in the sugarcane plantation area where, you know, I'd take the bus down to the harbor of the Guayas River, take a launch across the river, you know, catch the bus on the rest of the way. And I missed the connection. And so I had some questionable street food and I got really sick when I went out in the sugarcane plantation and I did usually spend the night with the school teacher out there.\n\nAnyway, I, you know, just sort of kept getting worse, and she finally decided that I'd better get back to Guayaquil, but the question was how I was going to get back. And so there was an engineer out there at the plantation with a jeep, and he brought me back actually all the way to my house. And then we were supposed to leave like the next day and I was just sicker and sicker. So I ended up spending the weekend in the Peace Corps doctor's sick room and the others went on to Esmeraldas, and I never did get to Esmeraldes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the vehicle that you and Dave sort of had access to was a Jeep."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a Willis wagon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And provided by Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:461", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.096127615453959, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't. But I remember that another Peace Corps volunteer and Dave and I were supposed to go up to Esmeraldas to take some things up to a Peace Corps volunteer up there. Someone who'd worked for Heifer, a Peace Corps Heifer, had left the country. And actually, Dave and I had been given his vehicle so that we could get around to these towns that were so spread out a lot easier, because we were spending lots and lots of time on busses. And so we were supposed, the three of us were supposed to take some things. So I had been out in the sugarcane plantation area where, you know, I'd take the bus down to the harbor of the Guayas River, take a launch across the river, you know, catch the bus on the rest of the way. And I missed the connection. And so I had some questionable street food and I got really sick when I went out in the sugarcane plantation and I did usually spend the night with the school teacher out there.\n\nAnyway, I, you know, just sort of kept getting worse, and she finally decided that I'd better get back to Guayaquil, but the question was how I was going to get back. And so there was an engineer out there at the plantation with a jeep, and he brought me back actually all the way to my house. And then we were supposed to leave like the next day and I was just sicker and sicker. So I ended up spending the weekend in the Peace Corps doctor's sick room and the others went on to Esmeraldas, and I never did get to Esmeraldes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the vehicle that you and Dave sort of had access to was a Jeep."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a Willis wagon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And provided by Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For volunteers who?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:463", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.21791957272662, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a Willis wagon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And provided by Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For volunteers who?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was actually originally for this Heifer Project employee who was assigned to the coast. And Don was in the mountains, but this guy had had international experience in other places, not Latin America. And his family was not happy there and they left. So when he left, a decision was made not to replace the position. And anyway, they decided that the best thing to do with the vehicle was to let us use it to get around because Guayas is a huge province and we were covering, trying to cover some pretty big area. And at that point, by that point, we were traveling on our own all the time by bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On a personal matter, you can answer or not. Had Peace Corps said anything about the desirability of not getting pregnant? Was there any official or informal position?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:465", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.464355080807355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For volunteers who?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was actually originally for this Heifer Project employee who was assigned to the coast. And Don was in the mountains, but this guy had had international experience in other places, not Latin America. And his family was not happy there and they left. So when he left, a decision was made not to replace the position. And anyway, they decided that the best thing to do with the vehicle was to let us use it to get around because Guayas is a huge province and we were covering, trying to cover some pretty big area. And at that point, by that point, we were traveling on our own all the time by bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On a personal matter, you can answer or not. Had Peace Corps said anything about the desirability of not getting pregnant? Was there any official or informal position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh. I don't think that that was really discussed very much. You know, I think that actually there were some Peace Corps babies in our group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in fact, I mean, you weren't told."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:467", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.849283423119283, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was actually originally for this Heifer Project employee who was assigned to the coast. And Don was in the mountains, but this guy had had international experience in other places, not Latin America. And his family was not happy there and they left. So when he left, a decision was made not to replace the position. And anyway, they decided that the best thing to do with the vehicle was to let us use it to get around because Guayas is a huge province and we were covering, trying to cover some pretty big area. And at that point, by that point, we were traveling on our own all the time by bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On a personal matter, you can answer or not. Had Peace Corps said anything about the desirability of not getting pregnant? Was there any official or informal position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh. I don't think that that was really discussed very much. You know, I think that actually there were some Peace Corps babies in our group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in fact, I mean, you weren't told."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or advised not to."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:469", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.388092692354759, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh. I don't think that that was really discussed very much. You know, I think that actually there were some Peace Corps babies in our group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in fact, I mean, you weren't told."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or advised not to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. But you know, we didn't. But the one couple that was married when they went into the Peace Corps had a baby. And then there were a couple of marriages, you know, fairly early on and there were a couple of them had babies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they stayed on."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:471", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 17.097880769283066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or advised not to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. But you know, we didn't. But the one couple that was married when they went into the Peace Corps had a baby. And then there were a couple of marriages, you know, fairly early on and there were a couple of them had babies."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they stayed on."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they stayed on. Yeah. Now this was before I think our Peace Corps was looking at a lot of things as they occurred and, you know, including the vehicle issue. I think that, you know, they didn't. The original plan was not to give Peace Corps volunteers vehicles. And then, you know, this happened and they gave us one. And then of course, later the policies all changed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Being in Guayaquil and having a jeep, did outlying volunteers tend to weekend at your place or head into the? Or wasn't it that difficult?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:479", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.449902102245186, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that point, it hadn't been that long because we actually arrived in country in September. And then I think at our sites. Let's see, we spent June, July, I think early August we left. In early August, we left Bozeman and we spent a month in Puerto Rico and we toured around, I think we got to our sites about the 1st of October. So we'd only been there October, November, and part of December."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the first six months, eight months, did you have any contact with Peace Corps staff?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the regional office was in Guayaquil, James Pines, and yeah, we were in and out of there periodically. He never came to visit us, but, you know, then we were right there in Guayaquil. I don't know about the other volunteers who were out of Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a supportive relationship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, it was very. He was very helpful and very."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did his office stand in relation to the Heifer office? Who is looking at whom?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:481", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.277669002494651, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the regional office was in Guayaquil, James Pines, and yeah, we were in and out of there periodically. He never came to visit us, but, you know, then we were right there in Guayaquil. I don't know about the other volunteers who were out of Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a supportive relationship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, it was very. He was very helpful and very."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did his office stand in relation to the Heifer office? Who is looking at whom?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we didn't, we didn't see anybody a whole lot, if you really want to know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's fine."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:483", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.975187780549611, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, it was very. He was very helpful and very."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did his office stand in relation to the Heifer office? Who is looking at whom?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we didn't, we didn't see anybody a whole lot, if you really want to know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was sort of like, go do this, go do something useful. But they were there, you know, to support us. Like if our money didn't come in on time at the bank. You know, if there were problems. When they had the revolution and threw out the president, I can't remember exactly when that was. That was after we were out in Santa Elena in the western part of the province. But when they had the revolution, my grandmother, who did not have a lot of schooling, wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver that it wasn't safe there and that you should send me home. And I didn't know anything about this. And I went into the Peace Corps office one day, and you know, by then, it had filtered from Sargent Shriver down to the director for Latin America, down to the director for Ecuador, down to the director for the coast of Ecuador. And so he says, here is something I want to show you and talk with you about. You need to write to your grandmother if you haven't done it recently."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, how long we you in Guayaquil?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:485", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.5279864228329005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we didn't, we didn't see anybody a whole lot, if you really want to know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's fine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was sort of like, go do this, go do something useful. But they were there, you know, to support us. Like if our money didn't come in on time at the bank. You know, if there were problems. When they had the revolution and threw out the president, I can't remember exactly when that was. That was after we were out in Santa Elena in the western part of the province. But when they had the revolution, my grandmother, who did not have a lot of schooling, wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver that it wasn't safe there and that you should send me home. And I didn't know anything about this. And I went into the Peace Corps office one day, and you know, by then, it had filtered from Sargent Shriver down to the director for Latin America, down to the director for Ecuador, down to the director for the coast of Ecuador. And so he says, here is something I want to show you and talk with you about. You need to write to your grandmother if you haven't done it recently."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, how long we you in Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About a year. Maybe not quite. I think we were there from like October until August. And meanwhile, we got a good program going with people who seemed just super receptive out in the western part of the province in the Santa Elena Peninsula."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that part of your responsibility?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:487", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.142207136481001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was sort of like, go do this, go do something useful. But they were there, you know, to support us. Like if our money didn't come in on time at the bank. You know, if there were problems. When they had the revolution and threw out the president, I can't remember exactly when that was. That was after we were out in Santa Elena in the western part of the province. But when they had the revolution, my grandmother, who did not have a lot of schooling, wrote a letter to Sargent Shriver that it wasn't safe there and that you should send me home. And I didn't know anything about this. And I went into the Peace Corps office one day, and you know, by then, it had filtered from Sargent Shriver down to the director for Latin America, down to the director for Ecuador, down to the director for the coast of Ecuador. And so he says, here is something I want to show you and talk with you about. You need to write to your grandmother if you haven't done it recently."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, how long we you in Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About a year. Maybe not quite. I think we were there from like October until August. And meanwhile, we got a good program going with people who seemed just super receptive out in the western part of the province in the Santa Elena Peninsula."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that part of your responsibility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Uh huh. And that was one of the areas that we had been taken very early on by an Ecuadorian poultry specialist in the extension service. And he had done some work out there and had. Um, anyway, he took us out there and introduced us to people out there, and people were very receptive and they took us and introduced us to people in other surrounding little towns actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is kind of an area to itself?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:489", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.82467459609, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About a year. Maybe not quite. I think we were there from like October until August. And meanwhile, we got a good program going with people who seemed just super receptive out in the western part of the province in the Santa Elena Peninsula."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that part of your responsibility?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Uh huh. And that was one of the areas that we had been taken very early on by an Ecuadorian poultry specialist in the extension service. And he had done some work out there and had. Um, anyway, he took us out there and introduced us to people out there, and people were very receptive and they took us and introduced us to people in other surrounding little towns actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is kind of an area to itself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it's actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far is it from Guayaquil?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:491", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.249638440100001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Uh huh. And that was one of the areas that we had been taken very early on by an Ecuadorian poultry specialist in the extension service. And he had done some work out there and had. Um, anyway, he took us out there and introduced us to people out there, and people were very receptive and they took us and introduced us to people in other surrounding little towns actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this is kind of an area to itself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it's actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far is it from Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was about four hours by bus. And it was a nice straight road that you could travel at, you know, like a hundred kilometers an hour, you know, paved. Anyway, we had people who had been really receptive out there and they talked with us a little bit like, well, why can't you come out? Why can't you be out here more? And so one day we went into the Peace Corps office and James Pine said, I had a visit from some people from Santa Elena who came in. Really? And, you know, like, oh dear, what did I do? What did we do wrong? And he said, um, well, they wanted to know if you could come to, if you can move to Santa Elena. And it's sort of like, oh really, wow, yes! He goes, you really want to go there? And we said, yes, we did. And they did probably the unthinkable. We did not have a counterpart in Santa Elena. We were on our own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is a gesture of trust on someone's part."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:493", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.721820489000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it's actually."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far is it from Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was about four hours by bus. And it was a nice straight road that you could travel at, you know, like a hundred kilometers an hour, you know, paved. Anyway, we had people who had been really receptive out there and they talked with us a little bit like, well, why can't you come out? Why can't you be out here more? And so one day we went into the Peace Corps office and James Pine said, I had a visit from some people from Santa Elena who came in. Really? And, you know, like, oh dear, what did I do? What did we do wrong? And he said, um, well, they wanted to know if you could come to, if you can move to Santa Elena. And it's sort of like, oh really, wow, yes! He goes, you really want to go there? And we said, yes, we did. And they did probably the unthinkable. We did not have a counterpart in Santa Elena. We were on our own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is a gesture of trust on someone's part."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I mean, we were still, we worked through the Ecuadorean extension service. We worked on a big poultry project and some other things. And you know, we worked with the poultry specialists and we worked with the diagnostic labs when we'd have a disease outbreak and so on. But yeah, it was, we did not have a local counterpart per se."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was all back in Guayaquil?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:495", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.2464672100000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was about four hours by bus. And it was a nice straight road that you could travel at, you know, like a hundred kilometers an hour, you know, paved. Anyway, we had people who had been really receptive out there and they talked with us a little bit like, well, why can't you come out? Why can't you be out here more? And so one day we went into the Peace Corps office and James Pine said, I had a visit from some people from Santa Elena who came in. Really? And, you know, like, oh dear, what did I do? What did we do wrong? And he said, um, well, they wanted to know if you could come to, if you can move to Santa Elena. And it's sort of like, oh really, wow, yes! He goes, you really want to go there? And we said, yes, we did. And they did probably the unthinkable. We did not have a counterpart in Santa Elena. We were on our own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is a gesture of trust on someone's part."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I mean, we were still, we worked through the Ecuadorean extension service. We worked on a big poultry project and some other things. And you know, we worked with the poultry specialists and we worked with the diagnostic labs when we'd have a disease outbreak and so on. But yeah, it was, we did not have a local counterpart per se."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was all back in Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was all in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But then you would come from Santa Elena and into Guayaquil and work directly with whatever agency?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:497", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.7182969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I mean, we were still, we worked through the Ecuadorean extension service. We worked on a big poultry project and some other things. And you know, we worked with the poultry specialists and we worked with the diagnostic labs when we'd have a disease outbreak and so on. But yeah, it was, we did not have a local counterpart per se."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was all back in Guayaquil?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was all in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But then you would come from Santa Elena and into Guayaquil and work directly with whatever agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And probably the closest to a counterpart was this sort of local community leader that people sort of looked up to who had this little room under his house that said Agricultural Center. But nothing was going on there, until we got there, but then stuff started going on, you know, he let us use that sort of as a base of operations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you then stand in relation to Heifer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:499", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.131441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was all in Guayaquil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But then you would come from Santa Elena and into Guayaquil and work directly with whatever agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And probably the closest to a counterpart was this sort of local community leader that people sort of looked up to who had this little room under his house that said Agricultural Center. But nothing was going on there, until we got there, but then stuff started going on, you know, he let us use that sort of as a base of operations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you then stand in relation to Heifer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were still working with Heifer. I mean, Heifer and Peace Corps jointly decided that, yeah, we could go to Santa Elena. So we went out to Santa Elena. And by then, Dave primarily had started to work on a big. We'd both been doing some poultry work. You know, we'd already placed a Heifer Project animal out there when we had to take it out of this other town. Anyway, we'd started working in Santa Elena, had a couple of things going. I had a girls 4-H club, 4-F club going. He had a boys 4-F club going. I had the beginnings of one going, we each did, in another little town south of there. And part of the sales pitch was there other little towns that we could, you know, do things in surrounding, particularly with the Willis wagon. And so we, you know, that helped because even there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So part of the deal in moving out there was you kept?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:503", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6561000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were still working with Heifer. I mean, Heifer and Peace Corps jointly decided that, yeah, we could go to Santa Elena. So we went out to Santa Elena. And by then, Dave primarily had started to work on a big. We'd both been doing some poultry work. You know, we'd already placed a Heifer Project animal out there when we had to take it out of this other town. Anyway, we'd started working in Santa Elena, had a couple of things going. I had a girls 4-H club, 4-F club going. He had a boys 4-F club going. I had the beginnings of one going, we each did, in another little town south of there. And part of the sales pitch was there other little towns that we could, you know, do things in surrounding, particularly with the Willis wagon. And so we, you know, that helped because even there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So part of the deal in moving out there was you kept?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we kept that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we'd go up the coast to Manglar Alto where this was a desert area. So nothing grew there. I mean, there weren't even cacti there. Every drop of water was trucked in from 25 kilometers east from a spring where it was slightly saline. It was very expensive and you boiled it not only make it safe, but out of the water salt settle out. And but up the coast a little ways, and this was right on the coast, I was two kilometers from the Pacific Ocean. And some people probably would think, but I hardly ever got to the beach, you know, like two or three times in a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the area you were in had no water?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:505", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.7290000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we kept that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we'd go up the coast to Manglar Alto where this was a desert area. So nothing grew there. I mean, there weren't even cacti there. Every drop of water was trucked in from 25 kilometers east from a spring where it was slightly saline. It was very expensive and you boiled it not only make it safe, but out of the water salt settle out. And but up the coast a little ways, and this was right on the coast, I was two kilometers from the Pacific Ocean. And some people probably would think, but I hardly ever got to the beach, you know, like two or three times in a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the area you were in had no water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did people live?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:507", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we'd go up the coast to Manglar Alto where this was a desert area. So nothing grew there. I mean, there weren't even cacti there. Every drop of water was trucked in from 25 kilometers east from a spring where it was slightly saline. It was very expensive and you boiled it not only make it safe, but out of the water salt settle out. And but up the coast a little ways, and this was right on the coast, I was two kilometers from the Pacific Ocean. And some people probably would think, but I hardly ever got to the beach, you know, like two or three times in a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the area you were in had no water?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did people live?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it all came in from, you know, in this truck and it's like an old farm tank truck is really what it was. We used to haul water for our livestock on the farm and you'd buy it in these cans and they'd fill up your barrels depending on how much you could afford or how much supply they had and how many trips they were making that day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about keeping chickens alive?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:509", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did people live?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it all came in from, you know, in this truck and it's like an old farm tank truck is really what it was. We used to haul water for our livestock on the farm and you'd buy it in these cans and they'd fill up your barrels depending on how much you could afford or how much supply they had and how many trips they were making that day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about keeping chickens alive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, chickens were very profitable and it was a good area to grow them in. And both eggs and poultry meat were very, very expensive. So you could haul in all the feed and all the water and still make a good profit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And most of that, how was that sold?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:511", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it all came in from, you know, in this truck and it's like an old farm tank truck is really what it was. We used to haul water for our livestock on the farm and you'd buy it in these cans and they'd fill up your barrels depending on how much you could afford or how much supply they had and how many trips they were making that day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about keeping chickens alive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, chickens were very profitable and it was a good area to grow them in. And both eggs and poultry meat were very, very expensive. So you could haul in all the feed and all the water and still make a good profit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And most of that, how was that sold?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How was it, how was it sold?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Guayaquil and through a co-op?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00197:515", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How was it, how was it sold?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Guayaquil and through a co-op?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The eggs were sold, it was a co-op. The eggs were sold locally and the meat was sold, actually initially while we were there, mostly locally. There was a big British oil camp nearby."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was also a small Ecuadorian oil camp. And some people got their water from relatives who worked out the British oil camp. They had a distillation system but. [tape break]\n\nFairly well, but I couldn't carry on any deep conversation. Probably intellectual conversations, I couldn't probably, you know, do a technical lecture or some of the kinds of things that I used to be able to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. So let me say thank you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 23, "return_to_go": 73.13010037373303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "First of all I’d like to talk to you about your background a little bit. If you could share some of the details about your background and how you first became interested in aeronautical research."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a World War II baby, in that era. My father was a model builder of sorts. So I got building model airplanes rather young, and that was my introduction to aeronautics in essence. Then I went through high school in Miami, Florida. I went to the University of Miami [Coral Gables, Florida]. At the time I decided that I wanted to be an architect, because the girl I was dating, her father was an architect and he worked at home. Big influence. So I got to the university the first year, and took up drawing classes, going there all hours of the day and night for a measly one credit or two credits. I’m thinking I’m not sure I want to do this. That’s when I transferred to aeronautics—to mechanical engineering in essence. They didn’t have an aeronautical school at the time. But they did what they called an aero option, and you could take two aerodynamics classes in your senior year. That gave you the aero option in essence.\\n\\n That was my background as far as education is concerned. I did take advanced classes when I was at [NASA] Langley [Research Center, Hampton,], Virginia through the University of Virginia extension. But that’s the extent of my educational background."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You received an internship to go to Langley. Is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that come about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.379146454314228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that did not have enough lift to do that. All it would do is alleviate the high Gs during entry. That’s all it would do. It had some maneuverability, so the ships probably would be in a better location to pick up the capsule. No, it still descended and landed on parachute. It did not land. In none of the stuff that we did at Langley did we come up with a configuration to land horizontally with a lifting body. Some was done by Langley, but most of it was done by Ames Research Center and Flight Research Center. That’s where that activity was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were at NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] during the time of the first Sputnik, and then again when the Yuri Gagarin flight occurred, and when Russia was always that one step ahead. Maybe you can just talk about that for a second, the feeling at Langley and how the workforce reacted to Russia being ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Catch up. Catch up. Do it. We were down because we didn’t make it before they did. That didn’t stop us. That didn’t dishearten us. Full speed ahead. Go. Let’s get there as fast as we can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were ready to keep going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about when President [John F.] Kennedy announced that the US would land a man on the Moon and return him safely to Earth before the decade was out. At that time I know Apollo was one of those things that people were thinking about. Did you think that was a realistic goal?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 23.754607171460254, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Catch up. Catch up. Do it. We were down because we didn’t make it before they did. That didn’t stop us. That didn’t dishearten us. Full speed ahead. Go. Let’s get there as fast as we can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were ready to keep going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about when President [John F.] Kennedy announced that the US would land a man on the Moon and return him safely to Earth before the decade was out. At that time I know Apollo was one of those things that people were thinking about. Did you think that was a realistic goal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You felt your research at that point was ready?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.949563523844727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely, absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about when President [John F.] Kennedy announced that the US would land a man on the Moon and return him safely to Earth before the decade was out. At that time I know Apollo was one of those things that people were thinking about. Did you think that was a realistic goal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You felt your research at that point was ready?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "From an aerodynamics standpoint—I can talk from a project standpoint a little bit, or an aerodynamics standpoint. Aerodynamics standpoint we had no problem with it. There’d been enough research work analytically and experimentally. Analytically from Ames, experimentally from Langley with some tests that were done with Scout [Rocket Program] configurations that went into orbit and reentered at those velocities, 36,000 feet per second.\\n\\n We had no problem with the ability to do it. When they configured the system to go to the Moon, they made a big bet. The big bet was that the microelectronics would be developed in time to integrate into the Apollo, because the systems that were available at the time we committed Apollo to go to the Moon, to the design, they were not available. So there was research there that we were betting on to come that we’d meet. Otherwise we never would have got to the Moon. It’s probably one of the things that slowed the Russians down, because they were behind us in the microelectronics. The booster was big enough as it was. It was humongous compared to anything we’d ever dealt with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about the Space Task Group. You said that you were anxious to join because they were moving a little quicker, and there were those goals that were set, and you wanted to keep working that way. We’ve heard before that some of the older Langley engineers discouraged some of the younger people from moving on to STG. Did you find that to be true?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.38840391538303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You felt your research at that point was ready?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "From an aerodynamics standpoint—I can talk from a project standpoint a little bit, or an aerodynamics standpoint. Aerodynamics standpoint we had no problem with it. There’d been enough research work analytically and experimentally. Analytically from Ames, experimentally from Langley with some tests that were done with Scout [Rocket Program] configurations that went into orbit and reentered at those velocities, 36,000 feet per second.\\n\\n We had no problem with the ability to do it. When they configured the system to go to the Moon, they made a big bet. The big bet was that the microelectronics would be developed in time to integrate into the Apollo, because the systems that were available at the time we committed Apollo to go to the Moon, to the design, they were not available. So there was research there that we were betting on to come that we’d meet. Otherwise we never would have got to the Moon. It’s probably one of the things that slowed the Russians down, because they were behind us in the microelectronics. The booster was big enough as it was. It was humongous compared to anything we’d ever dealt with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about the Space Task Group. You said that you were anxious to join because they were moving a little quicker, and there were those goals that were set, and you wanted to keep working that way. We’ve heard before that some of the older Langley engineers discouraged some of the younger people from moving on to STG. Did you find that to be true?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I was in the cadre of people that became the core. They were all gung ho."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were ready to go."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 27.09822657264781, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "From an aerodynamics standpoint—I can talk from a project standpoint a little bit, or an aerodynamics standpoint. Aerodynamics standpoint we had no problem with it. There’d been enough research work analytically and experimentally. Analytically from Ames, experimentally from Langley with some tests that were done with Scout [Rocket Program] configurations that went into orbit and reentered at those velocities, 36,000 feet per second.\\n\\n We had no problem with the ability to do it. When they configured the system to go to the Moon, they made a big bet. The big bet was that the microelectronics would be developed in time to integrate into the Apollo, because the systems that were available at the time we committed Apollo to go to the Moon, to the design, they were not available. So there was research there that we were betting on to come that we’d meet. Otherwise we never would have got to the Moon. It’s probably one of the things that slowed the Russians down, because they were behind us in the microelectronics. The booster was big enough as it was. It was humongous compared to anything we’d ever dealt with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about the Space Task Group. You said that you were anxious to join because they were moving a little quicker, and there were those goals that were set, and you wanted to keep working that way. We’ve heard before that some of the older Langley engineers discouraged some of the younger people from moving on to STG. Did you find that to be true?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I was in the cadre of people that became the core. They were all gung ho."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were ready to go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. All ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they decided to move to Houston, [Texas]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 28.998029525164235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because I was in the cadre of people that became the core. They were all gung ho."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were ready to go."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. All ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they decided to move to Houston, [Texas]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, first they were going to move up to Maryland. But it wasn’t a big deal. I was going to go wherever it was going to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t care where they sent it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.33114391684915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. All ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they decided to move to Houston, [Texas]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, first they were going to move up to Maryland. But it wasn’t a big deal. I was going to go wherever it was going to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t care where they sent it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came down on a visit to Houston in October after [Hurricane] Carla had come through in September. I said, “Whoa!” We drove down NASA Road 1 past cow pastures on the left with barbed wire fence. I said, “Are they really serious about this?” I drove around Clear Lake, and it was just totally devastated by Carla, just really torn up badly. So I said, “What the hell? We’re going down there. Let’s go. It’s an adventure. Let’s go.”\\n\\n Interesting thing. I drove down from Virginia—the family flew down and I drove down. I drove down, and I arrived in Houston on the Gulf Freeway [Interstate Highway 45], and it was under construction. When I left Houston ten years ago, still under construction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it’s still under construction now. Just to let you know. Nothing’s changed. Were you married at that time? Did you have a family that you had to move?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.9234932409435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, first they were going to move up to Maryland. But it wasn’t a big deal. I was going to go wherever it was going to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t care where they sent it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came down on a visit to Houston in October after [Hurricane] Carla had come through in September. I said, “Whoa!” We drove down NASA Road 1 past cow pastures on the left with barbed wire fence. I said, “Are they really serious about this?” I drove around Clear Lake, and it was just totally devastated by Carla, just really torn up badly. So I said, “What the hell? We’re going down there. Let’s go. It’s an adventure. Let’s go.”\\n\\n Interesting thing. I drove down from Virginia—the family flew down and I drove down. I drove down, and I arrived in Houston on the Gulf Freeway [Interstate Highway 45], and it was under construction. When I left Houston ten years ago, still under construction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it’s still under construction now. Just to let you know. Nothing’s changed. Were you married at that time? Did you have a family that you had to move?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. Three children and a wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they react to the idea of moving to Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 28.803881378826112, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came down on a visit to Houston in October after [Hurricane] Carla had come through in September. I said, “Whoa!” We drove down NASA Road 1 past cow pastures on the left with barbed wire fence. I said, “Are they really serious about this?” I drove around Clear Lake, and it was just totally devastated by Carla, just really torn up badly. So I said, “What the hell? We’re going down there. Let’s go. It’s an adventure. Let’s go.”\\n\\n Interesting thing. I drove down from Virginia—the family flew down and I drove down. I drove down, and I arrived in Houston on the Gulf Freeway [Interstate Highway 45], and it was under construction. When I left Houston ten years ago, still under construction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it’s still under construction now. Just to let you know. Nothing’s changed. Were you married at that time? Did you have a family that you had to move?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. Three children and a wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they react to the idea of moving to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were too young to appreciate it. Five, three, and one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your wife?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.893201532029014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. Three children and a wife."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they react to the idea of moving to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were too young to appreciate it. Five, three, and one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your wife?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was gung ho. She was ready to go. She was a New England gal that never left New England. In fact my family, all my roots are in New England. I was born in Salem, Massachusetts. My father is the first of the clan to leave New England. [In 1938 our family left Bangor, Maine, and moved to Miami, Florida.] Everyone else is [still] up there. There was a family history put together by one of my uncles, second line of the family. It was so easy for him, because everybody was there. They were all right there within 100 miles. Nobody ever left. They didn’t have big families, most of them. My family was two, my father was two, grandfather was two, that sort of thing. So it was not a lot of people to communicate with.\\n\\n Then we moved to Houston, and my wife [developed] a brain tumor [in 1973]. So that upset the apple cart. Anyway she’s since passed on. [My three children are all Texans, happily married, and each has two children.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you live when you first moved to Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.77022392447668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were too young to appreciate it. Five, three, and one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about your wife?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "She was gung ho. She was ready to go. She was a New England gal that never left New England. In fact my family, all my roots are in New England. I was born in Salem, Massachusetts. My father is the first of the clan to leave New England. [In 1938 our family left Bangor, Maine, and moved to Miami, Florida.] Everyone else is [still] up there. There was a family history put together by one of my uncles, second line of the family. It was so easy for him, because everybody was there. They were all right there within 100 miles. Nobody ever left. They didn’t have big families, most of them. My family was two, my father was two, grandfather was two, that sort of thing. So it was not a lot of people to communicate with.\\n\\n Then we moved to Houston, and my wife [developed] a brain tumor [in 1973]. So that upset the apple cart. Anyway she’s since passed on. [My three children are all Texans, happily married, and each has two children.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you live when you first moved to Houston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First house we bought was up on Anacortes [Street], which is in the development just toward town from Hobby Airport. It was a new development, new house. We lived in a rental house down off Edgebrook [Drive] to start with. Lived there for four to six months, something like that, before we bought the house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about those first days. Where were your offices?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.53005680044483, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried to develop my engineers. That was my chief goal. I gave them a lot of responsibility. We had a procedure where once a week, we had what we called a show-and-tell. People that were working on projects would come forth and make presentation on the status of what they were doing. If a presentation needed to be made higher up in management, they came through and were critiqued and helped to get it in form. But they took the project forward. That was my style, my philosophy. I was always there in the meeting to help if I needed to. I did a lot of [personnel] development. I tried to develop people. In fact, if you’re in an organization, you got a lot of people you just can’t develop, but you’ve got to find a place for them. They’ve got to be productive. That was my biggest asset I guess was being able to find a job and make everybody in my organization productive. That was the big thing. Like you say, working on the walls, whatever they’re doing, that was encouraged. Whatever they could do to help improve the job, get the job done, was encouraged. That was a big thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your hours like? What type of hours were you working at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a family. I was not one of these people that would work 18 hours a day. I did not do that. I got things going. That’s the reason. I’d pass responsibility off for certain things to people and let them go do it. If they wanted to work those hours, or they had to work those hours, that was their problem. But I always made sure that whatever they did was quality work, it was always supervised by somebody. As part of their development, it was supervised by someone who could steer them and guide them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That mentorship was encouraged."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes ma’am, absolutely. That was a big thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the Little Joe 2 program, Milt [Milton A.] Silveira, we’ve talked to him."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 29.477840889383142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a family. I was not one of these people that would work 18 hours a day. I did not do that. I got things going. That’s the reason. I’d pass responsibility off for certain things to people and let them go do it. If they wanted to work those hours, or they had to work those hours, that was their problem. But I always made sure that whatever they did was quality work, it was always supervised by somebody. As part of their development, it was supervised by someone who could steer them and guide them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That mentorship was encouraged."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes ma’am, absolutely. That was a big thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the Little Joe 2 program, Milt [Milton A.] Silveira, we’ve talked to him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was my deputy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was your deputy during that time. Do you want to talk about that project or that program for a minute?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.642045432647933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes ma’am, absolutely. That was a big thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the Little Joe 2 program, Milt [Milton A.] Silveira, we’ve talked to him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was my deputy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was your deputy during that time. Do you want to talk about that project or that program for a minute?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t do anything more than Milt. That’s one of those cases. Perfect example of what I was saying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You gave it to him."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 35.1578282584977, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was my deputy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was your deputy during that time. Do you want to talk about that project or that program for a minute?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can’t do anything more than Milt. That’s one of those cases. Perfect example of what I was saying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You gave it to him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I gave it to him. We used to have meetings regularly on the status of what was going on. If he had any problems the door was always open, come in. But I was always there backing him up. Milt was a good guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I enjoyed talking to him."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 43.40472624505889, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I gave it to him. We used to have meetings regularly on the status of what was going on. If he had any problems the door was always open, come in. But I was always there backing him up. Milt was a good guy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I enjoyed talking to him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He went on to bigger and better things. We had families the same age, lived in the same neighborhood too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so it was more than just a work relationship, it was a family relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve heard that from a lot of people, that the people you worked with were the people you socialized with."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 44.89414027228765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He went on to bigger and better things. We had families the same age, lived in the same neighborhood too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, so it was more than just a work relationship, it was a family relationship."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We’ve heard that from a lot of people, that the people you worked with were the people you socialized with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. In fact the neighborhood I was in—a lot of people lived in apartments in various and sundry places, but there must have been six or seven families of the NASA people that lived in the neighborhood that we lived in. We had a regular gathering get-together. Interesting too at the time, there were contractors. We could socialize with contractors and not be held in bad stead. It was great. We had gatherings and we played golf together, go to golf tournaments and things like that. There was no favoritism shown selecting those contractors. [I believe it could have been] blatant favoritism [that led to] the selection of Rockwell to build the Apollo spacecraft. Those guys didn’t know crap about ballistic vehicles. They were great airplane builders. The only reason they won that contract is because the astronauts went to Gilruth and demanded, because they built good airplanes. That’s the only defense they had, they build good airplanes, they build good airplanes.\\n\\n I really got in trouble with Gilruth one time. I’ll get to that later. That’s one of the projects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to go ahead and talk about some of the projects during that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 20.73238660977917, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve got lots of asides by the way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good, those are the kind of stories only you have. So those are the ones we want to hear because it’s your experiences.\\n\\n During that time the Apollo 1 fire happened. Do you want to talk about that time period for a moment and just reflect on some of your memories of that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Again, it’s another one of these cases where the engineering [design] work was done by that time. I was in the engineering organization. Once the vehicle is designed and built, there’s just a small cadre of engineers that go over [to Mission Control to] support the launches. Or they’re on call for whatever event occurs. Some engineering calamity occurs or something, a problem occurs. That was at the time that engineering was basically out of the Apollo program. I was not there. I had emotions involved with it, yes, but no physical work or anything like that. Because it wasn’t an aerodynamics problem, it wasn’t unstable, it didn’t crash, it wasn’t an aerodynamics problem. What more can I say?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn’t have anything to do with any of the reviews?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, nothing at all, no, I was not involved in any of that. After the fact, all the analyses that were done were done to system—all the modifications were done to systems, not to configuration, which is what my bag was. My bag was the configuration, how it flew, that sort of thing. That was not an issue that came on my plate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about [your position as] the Chief of Engineering Analysis Division in ’70, in the early Shuttle [timeframe]."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.3514686978810015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. It had changed completely. Just totally changed. That was a totally different world then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back to Shuttle, you worked on the abort systems in those earlier [spacecraft] designs. The ejection seats that were there for those first flights—they didn’t have those anymore once it was flying. What were your thoughts on flying without that capability?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was gung ho. We’d been so successful in the other adventures we had flightwise. I just felt that we think we know enough about space and reentry and the ascent phase that it’s a good bet to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You decided to retire in 1985. What did you plan to do when you retired, and what did you do once you retired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I first retired, I wound up being a representative for RCA. I’d go to all the meetings over there for the Space Station, because they had a piece of equipment that they were trying to sell as part of the Space Station program. There was a big problem with it, because they had been so independent as a commercial operation only, no government work. They sold their product to the government, but they didn’t take a government contract to build something for them. So I kept trying to convince those guys, “Hey, your ass belongs to the government.” As soon as you buy that contract your free will is gone. You can’t go do what you just want to do. I worked for those guys I guess two or three years. They never did accept that reality, but that’s exactly what it is.\\n\\n Just like now what’s going on. All this financial crap that’s going on with the government. All the strings that are attached if you take government money. That’s exactly the way it is with contracts. You abide by the government’s wish if you’re going to take government money. You don’t have any—no singularities now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When we first came in downstairs, we were talking about the brakes. Do you want to just talk about that for a second, the problem with the braking?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.680641210000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You just have to trust your people. I’ve got a management sense I guess. I can get a feel for what’s going on. I can’t sit down and [design a brake system], I can’t do that. I could do some aerodynamic stuff at one time when I was in aerodynamics. The reason that I got the responsibility, I’m sure, is just because of my management ability to manage people and projects and things like that, which I had demonstrated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Working with RCA afterwards with the Space Station, did you work on Space Station before you retired?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s no aerodynamics in Space Station and no brakes either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn’t support that program planning in any way or design."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We had a little bit of work done, in terms of are there any aerodynamic effects up in orbit. There are a few molecules floating around up there that bang into the Shuttle. But no, the aerodynamic effect is insignificant. I had responsibility, as I say, because I was systems engineering division, and one systems engineering function is to gather, collect, review, assess, and everything else, and massage the requirements. The requirements logically come under systems engineering as a function, but not in that project. That was one of the reasons why I cut and left. I just couldn’t see a place for me. My interest and area of expertise, if I had any, was aerodynamics. There was nothing coming up that was going to be aerodynamic.\\n\\n The requirements that were a part of systems engineering, I could have managed had I been given the authority to do so. But it got to the point where you would present a presentation to the program office, and if the program office didn’t like it or said something derogatory about it, that guy would get on the phone and call the Administrator. All these guys knew the Administrator. So it would rain back down. It was totally out of control. It was out of control."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You worked for a lot of different directors and managers throughout your career, beginning with NACA and on through NASA. You mentioned a few, but which ones do you think really influenced you the most as far as your management style?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.79649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Al Kehlet is number one. Bob Piland is number two. Faget in a sense. Faget was not a good manager. [He had a bunch of good managers working for him.] He was a hell of a designer, hell of an [idea man and the best creative engineer I ever knew]. He was smart as a whip on ideas and concepts and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m going to, if you don’t mind, see if Rebecca has any questions.\n\nI just have one. The years that you were there, technology changed. How did that impact your job as an engineer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Aerodynamics didn’t change. Wind tunnels were the same ones. In fact, they’re still there right now. They’re dilapidated and going into disrepair. Well, I’ve already alluded to it but I’ll go back to it again. That is that when NASA was first formed, it was not bureaucratic in the least sense. Everything is so bureaucratic in NASA now that [it’s difficult to do anything creative]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What time period do you feel is the one that you really enjoyed the most?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I loved working on Apollo. Loved working on Apollo. That was futuristic. A real challenge. Nobody’d ever done that before. People built airplanes, people built rockets, people built warheads. Nobody ever went to the Moon. That was exciting. It was exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned Apollo was your favorite time. Is there anything that you can think of as the most challenging part of your career? Or anything you’re most proud of for accomplishing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:110", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.9961, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Aerodynamics didn’t change. Wind tunnels were the same ones. In fact, they’re still there right now. They’re dilapidated and going into disrepair. Well, I’ve already alluded to it but I’ll go back to it again. That is that when NASA was first formed, it was not bureaucratic in the least sense. Everything is so bureaucratic in NASA now that [it’s difficult to do anything creative]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What time period do you feel is the one that you really enjoyed the most?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I loved working on Apollo. Loved working on Apollo. That was futuristic. A real challenge. Nobody’d ever done that before. People built airplanes, people built rockets, people built warheads. Nobody ever went to the Moon. That was exciting. It was exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned Apollo was your favorite time. Is there anything that you can think of as the most challenging part of your career? Or anything you’re most proud of for accomplishing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Going to the Moon. Well, the Shuttle has got to be an aerodynamic achievement. I can’t discount that at all, that was a great achievement. Building an airplane that flies through that flight range and that angle of attack range, successful in that sense. Great design. I can’t claim fame to the design. That’s Faget’s. [But helping put meat on the bones of Faget’s creations, I will always cherish.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of Apollo 11 when they actually landed?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:112", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I loved working on Apollo. Loved working on Apollo. That was futuristic. A real challenge. Nobody’d ever done that before. People built airplanes, people built rockets, people built warheads. Nobody ever went to the Moon. That was exciting. It was exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned Apollo was your favorite time. Is there anything that you can think of as the most challenging part of your career? Or anything you’re most proud of for accomplishing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Going to the Moon. Well, the Shuttle has got to be an aerodynamic achievement. I can’t discount that at all, that was a great achievement. Building an airplane that flies through that flight range and that angle of attack range, successful in that sense. Great design. I can’t claim fame to the design. That’s Faget’s. [But helping put meat on the bones of Faget’s creations, I will always cherish.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of Apollo 11 when they actually landed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Euphoria. Glee. Hollering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you at the Center?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00287:114", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 14.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Going to the Moon. Well, the Shuttle has got to be an aerodynamic achievement. I can’t discount that at all, that was a great achievement. Building an airplane that flies through that flight range and that angle of attack range, successful in that sense. Great design. I can’t claim fame to the design. That’s Faget’s. [But helping put meat on the bones of Faget’s creations, I will always cherish.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of Apollo 11 when they actually landed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Euphoria. Glee. Hollering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you at the Center?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was home, with the family. We were all hollering, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there anything we haven’t talked about that you’d like to mention?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00734:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 59.044297105859854, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, more comfortable. I don’t think they wear them as long as we used to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Eventually the Challenger came along, the vehicle, and flew the sixth mission. How did that impact the systems that you were in charge of as far as processing, and how did you coordinate having two different Orbiters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had Columbia and Challenger; we had two different vehicles as early as STS-[6]. Then after Challenger of course we had Discovery here. Then Atlantis came along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and as those vehicles were added, I know it had some impact on the processing flow and how they were moved through. So if you want to just talk about that for a minute."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t really know. There was more to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it increase hours? Or were the hours pretty much the same and just different locations as far as the teams working on the vehicles?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00734:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 23, "return_to_go": 62.27144122873317, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had Columbia and Challenger; we had two different vehicles as early as STS-[6]. Then after Challenger of course we had Discovery here. Then Atlantis came along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and as those vehicles were added, I know it had some impact on the processing flow and how they were moved through. So if you want to just talk about that for a minute."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t really know. There was more to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it increase hours? Or were the hours pretty much the same and just different locations as far as the teams working on the vehicles?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did not double the staff. We did take on more people. We were working more areas. If we’ve got two vehicles in flow then we’ve got to support people on the pad and people at HMF. Again back by the time you’re at Challenger, then we’re in the SPC mode. So I was not again working hands-on, and it was less of an impact to us in the design designee world than it was to the hands-on people. One of the actions that came out of the Rogers Commission [Presidential commission formed to investigate the accident] was more design involvement after Challenger.\\n\\n That affected me directly. It just about doubled my headcount. I hired a whole bunch of talent, a lot of people from the design areas, and a lot of people that had been relocated with the SPC [contract] were brought back to act as design designees. So Challenger just about doubled our headcount."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let’s talk about Challenger for a minute and the accident itself. Were you here for the launch?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00734:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 55.150802055682306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hiring, training, educating. We implemented an awful lot of modifications to the vehicle that had been pending. All were warranted at that time. This was a down period. It was a good time to go in and let’s try and bring the vehicle up to scratch while we’re at it. Before then we were trying to launch so fast we couldn’t get a lot of these mods done. So it became a modification period for the Orbiter.\\n\\n We didn’t have the issues that the SRB had. They had to go back and redesign and retest the joint seals. We had the opportunity to go try and make the Orbiter a safer vehicle. Plus we implemented the slide pole, stuff like that on the Orbiter. We did all sorts of work around the hatch in that respect. Most of that didn’t affect me. I was working across a whole bunch of other smaller systems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any modifications in your systems that you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, there were modifications all across the board. But I’d got to the point now where I wasn’t really involved with the details. I had a lot of the guys working for me that were a whole lot smarter than I was working those. I was just managing a large group of people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about return to flight? What are you memories of STS-26 return to flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not much. Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck I think was the commander of that. In fact I was with him a couple weeks ago on a tour. I took him around. We talked about those days, but it was basically a routine Shuttle flight. It was obviously a lot more focus on it because it had been two years since we’d had Challenger. Just a feeling of relief that it went off well and we’re back flying again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have much interaction with the astronauts during those early years or during any of the time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00734:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 62.7962503, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven’t a clue right now. I’d guess 300 or something like that. I’m not sure. Maybe more than that. It’s been a while since I’ve been down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s an interesting facility. When I was reading about it it seemed really interesting. Of course you were talking about USA, the consolidated contract, and taking over all that processing. During that time period when they were letting out that contract did you have any input?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Definitely. This was a combined Rockwell-Lockheed effort, so they really used inputs from us down here as to how that should be structured. I spent quite a bit of time out in Houston working that with the USA people. Some of those guys are still here. I saw Howard DeCastro this weekend down here. He was one of the original USA guys they brought in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That first time back in ’84 they didn’t get that same sort of input for the processing contract?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a whole lot more friction in ’84. We were hurt."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In ’97, when you decided to retire, what led to that decision?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00305:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 42.97138452495343, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Little did I know. Now, all those people probably don’t work anymore. They are retired and they just screw around on the Web. They don’t get anything done all day. <smile>"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or all the answers are on the Web now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s true, it’s absolutely true. All of the smart people that work here at Tietronix, and a couple of them, I can just ask them anything and they’ll just come up, they know just how to fix my computer, for example. This thing is doing this, how do I fix it? It was a big eye-opening one day, he sat down at my computer and he said, “Oh, yes, I see.” He goes to Google and types it in, and he types it in a natural language, and he types like just like I was talking to it myself—how do you get something to la-di-da? It comes back with about 1,700 different ways to do it. I thought, “I could have done that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You too were as smart."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Truly, there’s no handbook anymore. It’s just ask it and it’s there somewhere. You pick up the one that you already know, or a new one, possibly, because it’ll all come up different ways. It is the most marvelous thing. On the other hand, of course, I always think, there was a short story by somebody, [Robert A.] Heinlein or somebody, about all of the memory. It was like libraries, it was all becoming electronic, and then they found ways to make it smaller because it was just changing electrons around the ring of the thing of it, that’s how they did it. They got it down smaller until finally, some subatomic particle has all this stuff, everything that people know. The whole memory of the world is in something about the size of a six-inch cube. Then, they forgot the password."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can’t Google that, can you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00305:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 52.34757822353007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There you go, start over. It was just funny. That’s what I always think of, that story of everything is just getting it smaller and more portable. Just your phone because it’s a conduit out to all that stuff, but you can ask it anything. Now, you can talk to it. In fact, what’s funny is when you talk to it, you have to use its pronunciation because if you try to get somebody’s name, “Call Rebecca,” of course, it’ll say, “Which Rebecca?” I don’t have any except you and one other in the whole world, but it does that to me all the time. Or it will say, my in-laws’ name, it’s Czech, Hradecky, but it starts with an H. The name, it comes back, the pronunciation of that word is so strange, so I have to say what it wants me to say, to have someone call Randy Hecky, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’re being trained by a phone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. I’m changing my words so I can talk to this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Explain to us, because the Shuttle was still being put together and systems had the possibility of being tweaked or switched around, you didn’t have any concrete material to work with when you were developing all these, how were you able to get the information that you needed to start designing the Single System Trainers and that type of information that you needed to train the people who were going to be using it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s interesting, there. I was going to double-back on that because once we started with the catalogue, that is, with the flow, that gave a structure to it, but then the hard work started, you had to build all that training for the crew. It’s almost funny because you get back to the book—remember on Apollo, we had one book?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. That everybody got a section of, originally?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00305:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 31.81462590000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Different people had different reactions. In my group, I hired almost every woman I could find. If they were offered to me, you’d bring them in and talk to them and pick them up. I got so many good people—Janice [E.] Voss worked for me as a co-op and then as an instructor before she got to be an astronaut. Jim [James H.] Newman came in, went through, a lot of them, George used me as a staging point. If he found somebody that he didn’t go hire as an astronaut this year, suddenly I’d get a call and say, “I’ve got a guy for you.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You knew your purpose, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. It was funny because slots on some service are controlled by the Congress, we don’t get to just do whatever. I said, “Well, what do you want to do with them?” In those days, I had McDonnell, Ford, and Rockwell slots, instructors working for me, as it came together.\\n\\n He said, “I’ve talked to McDonnell and they’ll give him a job, or her a job.” Okay! No problem with me, I get a new good person here, and so I put them to work. You know that two years later, or every year, they were applying to become astronauts. Suddenly, get them the word, and they said they’re going. You’re just happy to have them as long as you could, and they did good work on the way. Janice was great. Newman, I say those two names because I was close to them. In fact, I was single at that time, and I would go on vacations, and I hired them to stay at my house. My kids always talk about [how] some of their babysitters were astronauts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were raised by the best, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Not a bad deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not for anybody, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00305:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 32.01625100000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. It was funny because slots on some service are controlled by the Congress, we don’t get to just do whatever. I said, “Well, what do you want to do with them?” In those days, I had McDonnell, Ford, and Rockwell slots, instructors working for me, as it came together.\\n\\n He said, “I’ve talked to McDonnell and they’ll give him a job, or her a job.” Okay! No problem with me, I get a new good person here, and so I put them to work. You know that two years later, or every year, they were applying to become astronauts. Suddenly, get them the word, and they said they’re going. You’re just happy to have them as long as you could, and they did good work on the way. Janice was great. Newman, I say those two names because I was close to them. In fact, I was single at that time, and I would go on vacations, and I hired them to stay at my house. My kids always talk about [how] some of their babysitters were astronauts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were raised by the best, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Not a bad deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not for anybody, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quality people, you didn’t have to worry about some 13-year-old kid down the street burning down the house; I'd have some 26-year-old Ph.D. quasi-astronaut"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had different concerns, yes. You controlled their future though because I’m sure that the right word from you helped a long way."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00305:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.35139000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Exactly. Not a bad deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not for anybody, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quality people, you didn’t have to worry about some 13-year-old kid down the street burning down the house; I'd have some 26-year-old Ph.D. quasi-astronaut"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had different concerns, yes. You controlled their future though because I’m sure that the right word from you helped a long way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I gave them the right words for sure. It was an interesting time because I’ve always had a big open house kind of thing in my place, I always go through and say, like, right now I’m saying around here, “Who’s available for Thanksgiving dinner?” Some of these kids are from all over the world, and they can maybe go home for Christmas, but they’re not going home Thanksgiving, too. I said, “Come on over if you want.” I used to joke about it, my kids never quite know who the hell was coming for Thanksgiving. It was always interesting, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, it’s life not dull, that’s for sure."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00305:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 37.057100000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quality people, you didn’t have to worry about some 13-year-old kid down the street burning down the house; I'd have some 26-year-old Ph.D. quasi-astronaut"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had different concerns, yes. You controlled their future though because I’m sure that the right word from you helped a long way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I gave them the right words for sure. It was an interesting time because I’ve always had a big open house kind of thing in my place, I always go through and say, like, right now I’m saying around here, “Who’s available for Thanksgiving dinner?” Some of these kids are from all over the world, and they can maybe go home for Christmas, but they’re not going home Thanksgiving, too. I said, “Come on over if you want.” I used to joke about it, my kids never quite know who the hell was coming for Thanksgiving. It was always interesting, though."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s right, it’s life not dull, that’s for sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s it, that’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Finally, STS-1 was ready to go."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.693051245451127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I was part of that, so that was rewarding."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. That is very rewarding. They certainly did do a good job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, thanks. It was a lot of good people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of people had to bring it all together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back to Gemini, you mentioned the Gemini mission simulators and the dynamic crew procedure simulator. The Gemini also was doing a lot to train for EVAs. They had a lot of problems with the EVAs at first, not realizing the intricacies of working in microgravity."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 27.436723606056805, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, thanks. It was a lot of good people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of people had to bring it all together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going back to Gemini, you mentioned the Gemini mission simulators and the dynamic crew procedure simulator. The Gemini also was doing a lot to train for EVAs. They had a lot of problems with the EVAs at first, not realizing the intricacies of working in microgravity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That is a good point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you work on there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 20.214946241353452, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were, as we should have been, closely scrutinized on that. We probably didn't run as good a simulation as we should have on a stuck thruster. We looked through all the records of how much training he'd had and it turned out to be probably minimum. He had some training in that area, but the fact that he didn't immediately recognize that he had a stuck thruster, and before the thing started getting out of control was an indication that we probably didn't do an adequate job there, and we accepted that. Thank goodness we lived through it and benefited by all that, although it was not too rewarding to know that we could have saved him a lot of anxiety and risked his safety."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He'd had enough other training to be able to keep his cool and figure out the right thing to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if we could go ahead and take a break here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll change the tape out.\\n\\n Working in simulations, you worked very closely with the flight crews, and you had mentioned you'd like to maybe tell us a little bit about that and working with them and some of the astronauts and how that all went."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.4103494447198, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Richard G.] Dick Snyder was another one. Did you talk to him, by the way?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, not yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not sure of his whereabouts. Dick was an assistant to Stan in mission simulations. When I retired, he was at headquarters, so you might start there if you're interested to know his whereabouts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. We're always interested in adding to our projects and always looking for new people who are interested in participating. We depend on you guys a lot to tell us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you talked with Tommy Holloway yet?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not about the early days. We did talk to him in conjunction with the Shuttle-Mir project [International Space Station Phase I], I believe."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.23372160524422, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not sure of his whereabouts. Dick was an assistant to Stan in mission simulations. When I retired, he was at headquarters, so you might start there if you're interested to know his whereabouts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. We're always interested in adding to our projects and always looking for new people who are interested in participating. We depend on you guys a lot to tell us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you talked with Tommy Holloway yet?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not about the early days. We did talk to him in conjunction with the Shuttle-Mir project [International Space Station Phase I], I believe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Great man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we'd like to go back and talk to him some more about these days."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 20.259690672493576, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you talked with Tommy Holloway yet?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not about the early days. We did talk to him in conjunction with the Shuttle-Mir project [International Space Station Phase I], I believe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Great man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we'd like to go back and talk to him some more about these days."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I bet he'd like to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure he would. You mentioned the visuals and the pictures for the landing. Were you involved with the lunar landing training vehicle at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.732989636103973, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Great man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we'd like to go back and talk to him some more about these days."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I bet he'd like to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure he would. You mentioned the visuals and the pictures for the landing. Were you involved with the lunar landing training vehicle at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. We followed that pretty closely. Our training coordinators would schedule the crew's time on it and so forth. I got a little bit more interested in it after Neil had to bail out of the one out at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas], and I watched quite a few of those flights. I had some good friends that worked out there at Ellington and worked on that project. But on the support of it or the mission control or anything like that, no, we did not.\\n\\n I take that back. We had an LLTV [Lunar Landing Training Vehicle] simulator that we provided, sure enough, under Wayne [K.] Williams. We ran that as long as they were flying LLTVs, that's correct. I'd forgotten about that. That was an almost oversight. It was a fair simulation of it [the LLTV mission task and dynamics]. It was a kind of a minimum simulation [from the standpoint of the LLTV instrumentation], but we had to simulate the lunar rocket [motor] that took up [five-sixths] of the G of the spacecraft and then [correctly simulated the dynamics] when it went into a lunar mode. So we simulated that, the [operation and dynamic] environment [of the LLTV] in our training vehicle [simulator]. I think it was useful. There was a certain number of hours required on that [simulator] before they flew the actual vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From what we've seen, it was a useful thing, although it was challenge."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 15.25887737344886, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I bet he'd like to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure he would. You mentioned the visuals and the pictures for the landing. Were you involved with the lunar landing training vehicle at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really. We followed that pretty closely. Our training coordinators would schedule the crew's time on it and so forth. I got a little bit more interested in it after Neil had to bail out of the one out at Ellington [Field, Houston, Texas], and I watched quite a few of those flights. I had some good friends that worked out there at Ellington and worked on that project. But on the support of it or the mission control or anything like that, no, we did not.\\n\\n I take that back. We had an LLTV [Lunar Landing Training Vehicle] simulator that we provided, sure enough, under Wayne [K.] Williams. We ran that as long as they were flying LLTVs, that's correct. I'd forgotten about that. That was an almost oversight. It was a fair simulation of it [the LLTV mission task and dynamics]. It was a kind of a minimum simulation [from the standpoint of the LLTV instrumentation], but we had to simulate the lunar rocket [motor] that took up [five-sixths] of the G of the spacecraft and then [correctly simulated the dynamics] when it went into a lunar mode. So we simulated that, the [operation and dynamic] environment [of the LLTV] in our training vehicle [simulator]. I think it was useful. There was a certain number of hours required on that [simulator] before they flew the actual vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From what we've seen, it was a useful thing, although it was challenge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, boy, I'll tell you, that was challenged quite a few times on why we'd taken these risks to fly that. The flight crews wouldn't let go of it, from Deke on down. They just thought it was the best training you'd get of the final lunar touchdown, landing touchdown, as you could get, and I think that turned out to be the case. It was quite useful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, luckily everything did go okay."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.54284979161181, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, absolutely thrilling. Couldn't believe it. My mother, I think this is accurate, of course, we'll never know, but I think she died thinking that we staged all that. She was not convinced we landed on the moon. I told her, I said, \"Would I lie to you?\" I said, \"We actually did that.\" She says, \"No.\" But there were other people than my mother that believed that, that that was not for real. But it was hard being there at the time of imagining what was going on, and then how close we came to blowing off that landing, and working [the problems] through, having the people with the right savvy on the ground to work with the flight crew and saying, \"Press on and go ahead and land,\" and then doing it successfully. All the hardware worked as designed and bringing them back. Great times. Absolutely. Biggest thing of my lifetime."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been quite an experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good to know that all that training that the crews had had, the flight crews and the controllers, than even when they did have these problems and what would happen, that they were still able to make the landing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet. You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As the Apollo program was coming to an end, did you think about it much at the time that here was the end of going to the moon, and the end of all this excitement that you had all had working on for so many years, or were you ready to move on to the next program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.13587835941443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. One problem we didn't anticipate as well as we should have was the landing of the Shuttle, the power-off dead-stick landing and the steep descent prior to that. [Jack R.] Lousma got into a problem of a PIO, pilot-induced oscillation, in the final phases of when he flew during the early Shuttle test. It wasn't a new [aerodynamics] problem. A lot of airplanes, when you [encounter] the ground effects…close to the ground [during] your touchdown, why, you get into a critical part of the landing [trying to make] sure that you anticipate…the dynamics the best you know [them] and don't aggravate those [dynamics with] wrong inputs…of your own…a pilot-induced oscillation.\\n\\n Lousma had a very critical phase of that landing where it [the Shuttle Orbiter] had touched down and then it took off, and it looked like it was going to be airborne again, and they made the final touchdown. But he was getting into a pretty good dynamics problem there, [however he] was able to get through that. Our simulation wasn't up to snuff on that. We added quite a bit of the ground effects factors to our simulation, we were able to repeat the problem that he encountered. They were using the Shuttle Training Aircraft also [for training in this critical area]. I guess that maybe [the STA] was a little bit [later]—no, they had at least one airplane configured for that.\\n\\n I used to like to go out [to] Joe Algranti in aircraft ops [in Ellington Field] and talk to those people, both on the LLTV and the Shuttle training aircraft. I've got a lot of longtime friends out there. Joe was always nice to me, too. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's always good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Have you interviewed him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have. We have interviewed him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know he was in town. Shucks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, he's not in town."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.03986484379381, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Have you interviewed him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We have. We have interviewed him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't know he was in town. Shucks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, he's not in town."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you had to go there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, North Carolina, in fact."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.50600597999236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, you had to go there?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, North Carolina, in fact."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that little sucker, he wouldn't come here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You don't mind?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we don't mind. It gives us the chance to see places we haven't seen before."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.11778442221373, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that little sucker, he wouldn't come here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You don't mind?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we don't mind. It gives us the chance to see places we haven't seen before."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I'll be darned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes it's easier for us to go and other times it's easier for people to come here."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 29.019760469126368, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You don't mind?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we don't mind. It gives us the chance to see places we haven't seen before."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I'll be darned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes it's easier for us to go and other times it's easier for people to come here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't he a neat guy?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very. Very neat."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 31.133067187918186, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I'll be darned."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sometimes it's easier for us to go and other times it's easier for people to come here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't he a neat guy?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very. Very neat."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gracious man. I think he started at [Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], too, if I'm not wrong. He and Warren North, I think they were both. But I've known Joe [for sometime]—when I was on the X-15 program I met Joe, and then [later] when he was running aircraft ops down here, when I came to Johnson, I had quite a few associations with him, and really good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good.\\n\\n Actually, jumping back a step to Skylab, were you involved in any simulations or training after they had launched Skylab and they had the problems, the heat shield and the solar panel? Were you involved in any of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.25896354213132, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Isn't he a neat guy?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very. Very neat."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gracious man. I think he started at [Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], too, if I'm not wrong. He and Warren North, I think they were both. But I've known Joe [for sometime]—when I was on the X-15 program I met Joe, and then [later] when he was running aircraft ops down here, when I came to Johnson, I had quite a few associations with him, and really good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good.\\n\\n Actually, jumping back a step to Skylab, were you involved in any simulations or training after they had launched Skylab and they had the problems, the heat shield and the solar panel? Were you involved in any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We provided some of the—see, our simulator, the Skylab's simulator that we had was more how to activate, was used to activate the systems and then deactivate when they were getting ready to leave. But I would say that the bulk of the training of on-orbit operations and experiments and this heat shield thing that you mentioned and the solar panels and what have you, that was done in the full-scale mockups that were under Lou [Ludie G.] Richards and Dean Grimm as a division chief. We were aware and kept in touch with what was going on there, and made sure that if we ought to be doing something to our part of the ground simulations, that we would fill that square. I would say that the majority of that was done in the mockups, in the redesign of the solar umbrella or whatever, to fix that problem. That was done over in the mockups. Jack [A.] Kinzler was very much involved in that. Good man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've been fortunate enough to talk to him, too."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 34.73218171347924, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gracious man. I think he started at [Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio], too, if I'm not wrong. He and Warren North, I think they were both. But I've known Joe [for sometime]—when I was on the X-15 program I met Joe, and then [later] when he was running aircraft ops down here, when I came to Johnson, I had quite a few associations with him, and really good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's good.\\n\\n Actually, jumping back a step to Skylab, were you involved in any simulations or training after they had launched Skylab and they had the problems, the heat shield and the solar panel? Were you involved in any of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We provided some of the—see, our simulator, the Skylab's simulator that we had was more how to activate, was used to activate the systems and then deactivate when they were getting ready to leave. But I would say that the bulk of the training of on-orbit operations and experiments and this heat shield thing that you mentioned and the solar panels and what have you, that was done in the full-scale mockups that were under Lou [Ludie G.] Richards and Dean Grimm as a division chief. We were aware and kept in touch with what was going on there, and made sure that if we ought to be doing something to our part of the ground simulations, that we would fill that square. I would say that the majority of that was done in the mockups, in the redesign of the solar umbrella or whatever, to fix that problem. That was done over in the mockups. Jack [A.] Kinzler was very much involved in that. Good man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've been fortunate enough to talk to him, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll bet he was a gracious man, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very much so. Very much so.\\n\\n Looking at Apollo-Soyuz, you mentioned that a little bit, and, of course, you've talked about Deke Slayton. It must have been rewarding to see him finally get a chance to fly."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 38.59131301497693, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We provided some of the—see, our simulator, the Skylab's simulator that we had was more how to activate, was used to activate the systems and then deactivate when they were getting ready to leave. But I would say that the bulk of the training of on-orbit operations and experiments and this heat shield thing that you mentioned and the solar panels and what have you, that was done in the full-scale mockups that were under Lou [Ludie G.] Richards and Dean Grimm as a division chief. We were aware and kept in touch with what was going on there, and made sure that if we ought to be doing something to our part of the ground simulations, that we would fill that square. I would say that the majority of that was done in the mockups, in the redesign of the solar umbrella or whatever, to fix that problem. That was done over in the mockups. Jack [A.] Kinzler was very much involved in that. Good man."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've been fortunate enough to talk to him, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll bet he was a gracious man, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very much so. Very much so.\\n\\n Looking at Apollo-Soyuz, you mentioned that a little bit, and, of course, you've talked about Deke Slayton. It must have been rewarding to see him finally get a chance to fly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. His whole outlook in life changed. [Laughter] He was so glad to get a flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. What was your involvement in the training for that? What were the challenges of training?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 39.54590334997437, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll bet he was a gracious man, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very much so. Very much so.\\n\\n Looking at Apollo-Soyuz, you mentioned that a little bit, and, of course, you've talked about Deke Slayton. It must have been rewarding to see him finally get a chance to fly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. His whole outlook in life changed. [Laughter] He was so glad to get a flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. What was your involvement in the training for that? What were the challenges of training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just from the command module operation standpoint. We had the Apollo-Soyuz model in the simulator so we could train for the docking with it. Then the mockup guys would do the transfers and the walk-throughs for the EVAs, for the crew transfers and that combined operation. I got to meet the Russian crew. Let's see, I guess I met both of them. That was good, too, Deke trying to talk in Russian. They were much better at talking English than our crews were at talking Russian, although Tom Stafford got pretty darn good. He was very good at it. Deke, I shouldn't say he didn't never master it, but— [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's certainly a challenging language."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.874615150081315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think you should. I think you'd enjoy that. Jim, he's quite a character."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll look forward to it, then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, I owe a lot of thanks in my career to him.\\n\\n After I quit Eagle, and I'm sorry I don't remember what those dates were, but that was the last time. My wife was still working for Enron Gas and Oil in Houston, for, I guess, four or five months, something like that, but then she planned to retire and did retire at the end of the year. I can't remember what that date was. '87, I think.\\n\\n Then about that time we moved up to Houston County Lake, up near Crockett, where we are now. We settled into a small house when we first moved, but then got a larger house, have been very happy up there. Been in good health, thank goodness, for both of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's very good. Good to hear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. This is a good time recalling a lot of those old things. I thought it would be fun and it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's been fun for us, too."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.86068350009035, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, I owe a lot of thanks in my career to him.\\n\\n After I quit Eagle, and I'm sorry I don't remember what those dates were, but that was the last time. My wife was still working for Enron Gas and Oil in Houston, for, I guess, four or five months, something like that, but then she planned to retire and did retire at the end of the year. I can't remember what that date was. '87, I think.\\n\\n Then about that time we moved up to Houston County Lake, up near Crockett, where we are now. We settled into a small house when we first moved, but then got a larger house, have been very happy up there. Been in good health, thank goodness, for both of us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's very good. Good to hear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. This is a good time recalling a lot of those old things. I thought it would be fun and it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's been fun for us, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just a couple last things and then we can finish up, if that's all right."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 22.0674261112115, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you. This is a good time recalling a lot of those old things. I thought it would be fun and it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's been fun for us, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just a couple last things and then we can finish up, if that's all right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Looking back over your career with NASA, what do you consider your biggest challenge?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 18.392662873360003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think it was in simulator development, I think in defining what we wanted to do or needed to do to accomplish there and then to be able to pull it off and then seeing all the results of that through Apollo, the first Apollo landing, especially. I'd like to think that I contributed to that, because it was very rewarding. So it had to be in the simulator area. That was from my perspective."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You certainly had a lot to contribute."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Had a lot of good help."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. Well, I'll ask Kevin and Rob real briefly if they have any questions as we tie off here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kevin?\n\nYes, I had a couple. First of all, I was thinking about the Apollo simulations and I was wondering if you could maybe kind of run us through one of those, like when you go to do a sim with a crew, like an integrated sim with the mission control, who's doing what? I mean, what are you and your people responsible for, and the simulation supervisor, working in the control center, that type of thing. I was wondering if you could just kind of take us through a generic run of one of those."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:140", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0909600000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, gee whiz. The whole program got more serious about launching during thunderstorms and how to predict lightning. It was a good lesson that thankfully we lived through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was saying that actually as a result of an accident in one of these simulations that he had seen his displays before that there was a low-power situation at one of the Cape simulators that caused his displays to do exactly what they did during the lightning strike, and just because he had been on console a year earlier when that happened, he recognized that and was able to take the proper actions."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Standby, [at least for the flight crew]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and do the SCE, the auxs, or whatever, just do the Signal Conditioning Equipment because of this simulation that had been run."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:142", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4344, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Standby, [at least for the flight crew]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and do the SCE, the auxs, or whatever, just do the Signal Conditioning Equipment because of this simulation that had been run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "See, we always thought we caused a lot of problems when our simulator bombed. We didn't realize that somebody was getting some benefit from that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, because of that he was able to make the right call within seconds."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:144", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8160000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, and do the SCE, the auxs, or whatever, just do the Signal Conditioning Equipment because of this simulation that had been run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "See, we always thought we caused a lot of problems when our simulator bombed. We didn't realize that somebody was getting some benefit from that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, because of that he was able to make the right call within seconds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Great. Hey, that's good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's all the questions I have. Thanks.\n\nRob?\n\nYes, I just have a couple of things. You were talking about the development of these simulators and getting the flight computers to talk to the simulator computers to talk to the mission control computers. All this had to be groundbreaking, and it's hard to imagine this highly advanced technology world we have without somebody having broken that ground. How did you all conceive of this and how did you all figure out, \"We're going to need to connect all these systems\"?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:146", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.24, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "See, we always thought we caused a lot of problems when our simulator bombed. We didn't realize that somebody was getting some benefit from that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, because of that he was able to make the right call within seconds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Great. Hey, that's good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's all the questions I have. Thanks.\n\nRob?\n\nYes, I just have a couple of things. You were talking about the development of these simulators and getting the flight computers to talk to the simulator computers to talk to the mission control computers. All this had to be groundbreaking, and it's hard to imagine this highly advanced technology world we have without somebody having broken that ground. How did you all conceive of this and how did you all figure out, \"We're going to need to connect all these systems\"?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a key to the Apollo simulations, and once we made the decision to go with flight computers, we talked very quickly with IBM to whether they could provide the hardware and the software on a basis that would support that decision and also help us with the design of those interface devices between our Univac ground computers. I guess they were Univac at that time. I think so. But how the actual flight computers would interface with the ground computers or the simulation computers. They had extremely good, high technical help there, we did from IBM. It was great. Yes, it was, it was the first time in that aspect, in that area, for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was anybody running anything similar from your office there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00595:160", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We appreciate you coming and sharing it with us today. It's been very interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like I said, I looked forward to it, and it was even more fun than I thought it would be. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're awfully nice people to say those things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. Thank you, you're very nice to come share it all with us."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.10631801099278, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Originally, 9 North, which is the middle section of the building, was built in the mid-70s, I believe. It started out with an FFT [Full Fuselage Trainer] and a CCT [Crew Compartment Trainer], and then they had a cargo bay with a Canadian arm on it. Then around the mid to late ‘80s, the 9 Northwest section was added, and then in the early ‘90s the East section of the building was added. The West section was basically set up for [the International Space] Station. The center of the building, which is 9 North, is still set up for Shuttle. Then the East end of the building is set up for the engineering, ER [mail code for the Software, Robotics, and Simulation Division], which is basically, I guess, research and development for robotics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is any portion of that used for Space Shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They do have an arm down there, but I think it’s more of a Station arm. The Canadarm was, I guess, retired and excessed. I don't know where it went. I’m sure it wasn’t destroyed or anything, because it was in this building since probably the early ‘80s or even before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us how the Space Vehicle Mockup Facility supported the Space Shuttle Program and continues to support it to this day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they have the FFT, which is the Full Fuselage Trainer. They have the cockpit, the middeck, and the lower deck. They have the cargo bay. They do a lot of working with cameras from the cockpit with the cargo bay. Then the CCT is basically a cockpit for training, and then now we also have the CCTII, and it’s a cockpit. It can actually go vertical. A couple of times a year, we turn it 180 degrees and we do a nose-down training, which is pretty well just a class that they go in and kind of orientate theirself inside of the cockpit in a nose-dive configuration. They don’t really get in and strap down in the seats and go through it like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does each mission participate in training in this building?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.340353345547532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They do have an arm down there, but I think it’s more of a Station arm. The Canadarm was, I guess, retired and excessed. I don't know where it went. I’m sure it wasn’t destroyed or anything, because it was in this building since probably the early ‘80s or even before that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us how the Space Vehicle Mockup Facility supported the Space Shuttle Program and continues to support it to this day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they have the FFT, which is the Full Fuselage Trainer. They have the cockpit, the middeck, and the lower deck. They have the cargo bay. They do a lot of working with cameras from the cockpit with the cargo bay. Then the CCT is basically a cockpit for training, and then now we also have the CCTII, and it’s a cockpit. It can actually go vertical. A couple of times a year, we turn it 180 degrees and we do a nose-down training, which is pretty well just a class that they go in and kind of orientate theirself inside of the cockpit in a nose-dive configuration. They don’t really get in and strap down in the seats and go through it like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does each mission participate in training in this building?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. You have your crew, which is training for whatever flight they’re on, and then you have prime crew. They come in, the prime crew, for anything that they’ve missed along for their training that’s required. Sometimes they have last minute training before they go into quarantine; actually, this week we do have some of those classes. That’s pretty well as far as the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long do these classes last, or simulations? Are they two different things?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.378170383941702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they have the FFT, which is the Full Fuselage Trainer. They have the cockpit, the middeck, and the lower deck. They have the cargo bay. They do a lot of working with cameras from the cockpit with the cargo bay. Then the CCT is basically a cockpit for training, and then now we also have the CCTII, and it’s a cockpit. It can actually go vertical. A couple of times a year, we turn it 180 degrees and we do a nose-down training, which is pretty well just a class that they go in and kind of orientate theirself inside of the cockpit in a nose-dive configuration. They don’t really get in and strap down in the seats and go through it like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does each mission participate in training in this building?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. You have your crew, which is training for whatever flight they’re on, and then you have prime crew. They come in, the prime crew, for anything that they’ve missed along for their training that’s required. Sometimes they have last minute training before they go into quarantine; actually, this week we do have some of those classes. That’s pretty well as far as the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long do these classes last, or simulations? Are they two different things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anywhere from an hour to, I would say, four or five hours. There are so many classes. I really couldn’t tell you all the classes. I do know they have a class that they go in and it takes a whole day to set the wiring harnesses up inside of the middeck, and they train on that. They have what we call a bail-out class, where they practice using their sky-genie, which is kind of a hardware that rappels off the top of the trainer for emergency escape. It’s an emergency escape class. They actually inflate the slide, and they slide out of the side hatch. I probably mentioned they do the camera stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that the camera on the arm or the Hasselblad?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.42018931549078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. You have your crew, which is training for whatever flight they’re on, and then you have prime crew. They come in, the prime crew, for anything that they’ve missed along for their training that’s required. Sometimes they have last minute training before they go into quarantine; actually, this week we do have some of those classes. That’s pretty well as far as the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long do these classes last, or simulations? Are they two different things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anywhere from an hour to, I would say, four or five hours. There are so many classes. I really couldn’t tell you all the classes. I do know they have a class that they go in and it takes a whole day to set the wiring harnesses up inside of the middeck, and they train on that. They have what we call a bail-out class, where they practice using their sky-genie, which is kind of a hardware that rappels off the top of the trainer for emergency escape. It’s an emergency escape class. They actually inflate the slide, and they slide out of the side hatch. I probably mentioned they do the camera stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that the camera on the arm or the Hasselblad?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s a camera that’s in the cargo bay of the FFT. I believe there might be two of them, aft and forward of the cargo bay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do they practice any sort of eating exercises or any other?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.577988128323089, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anywhere from an hour to, I would say, four or five hours. There are so many classes. I really couldn’t tell you all the classes. I do know they have a class that they go in and it takes a whole day to set the wiring harnesses up inside of the middeck, and they train on that. They have what we call a bail-out class, where they practice using their sky-genie, which is kind of a hardware that rappels off the top of the trainer for emergency escape. It’s an emergency escape class. They actually inflate the slide, and they slide out of the side hatch. I probably mentioned they do the camera stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that the camera on the arm or the Hasselblad?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s a camera that’s in the cargo bay of the FFT. I believe there might be two of them, aft and forward of the cargo bay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do they practice any sort of eating exercises or any other?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think. I really don’t know. I don’t think they [do], as far as eating. I think maybe stowage, they do stowage type classes for packing and unpacking the stowage boxes inside of the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us the difference, other than one of the CCTs can go vertical, are there any other differences between the two?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.86443125369232, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s a camera that’s in the cargo bay of the FFT. I believe there might be two of them, aft and forward of the cargo bay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do they practice any sort of eating exercises or any other?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think. I really don’t know. I don’t think they [do], as far as eating. I think maybe stowage, they do stowage type classes for packing and unpacking the stowage boxes inside of the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us the difference, other than one of the CCTs can go vertical, are there any other differences between the two?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT can go vertical. The CCTII, you can actually go vertical, which would be in a launch position, and then they have the descent, which would be nose-down. You could also put the CCT on the side and turn a side hatch up or a side hatch down. We’ve never done that class. There’s really been no need for it. Usually nose-up is the most configuration, other than just at its normal where it’s like it’s sitting on the runway. Other than that, pretty well nose-up would be the launch configuration. The FFT has the capability of going nose-up in a launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does it really?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.071590281880356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think. I really don’t know. I don’t think they [do], as far as eating. I think maybe stowage, they do stowage type classes for packing and unpacking the stowage boxes inside of the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us the difference, other than one of the CCTs can go vertical, are there any other differences between the two?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT can go vertical. The CCTII, you can actually go vertical, which would be in a launch position, and then they have the descent, which would be nose-down. You could also put the CCT on the side and turn a side hatch up or a side hatch down. We’ve never done that class. There’s really been no need for it. Usually nose-up is the most configuration, other than just at its normal where it’s like it’s sitting on the runway. Other than that, pretty well nose-up would be the launch configuration. The FFT has the capability of going nose-up in a launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does it really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You have to separate it from the cargo bay, and you have to add some hardware to the back of the bulkhead. That part of it I don’t believe is around any more. We hung onto it, I believe, up to ten years ago. With the CCTI and CCTII being able to go vertical, really wasn’t any need to have that on the FFT anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the astronauts come here to train, are these integrated simulations, or are they just simulations in-house?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.301766979867063, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT can go vertical. The CCTII, you can actually go vertical, which would be in a launch position, and then they have the descent, which would be nose-down. You could also put the CCT on the side and turn a side hatch up or a side hatch down. We’ve never done that class. There’s really been no need for it. Usually nose-up is the most configuration, other than just at its normal where it’s like it’s sitting on the runway. Other than that, pretty well nose-up would be the launch configuration. The FFT has the capability of going nose-up in a launch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Does it really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You have to separate it from the cargo bay, and you have to add some hardware to the back of the bulkhead. That part of it I don’t believe is around any more. We hung onto it, I believe, up to ten years ago. With the CCTI and CCTII being able to go vertical, really wasn’t any need to have that on the FFT anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the astronauts come here to train, are these integrated simulations, or are they just simulations in-house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They do integrated sims with mission control in, I believe, Building 5, if I’m not mistaken."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are these motion-base simulators or are they fixed-base?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.874851824234653, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ours?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fixed base."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have there been any changes to any of the trainers since you first started working here in ’82?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.749835360260725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fixed base."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have there been any changes to any of the trainers since you first started working here in ’82?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 19.567697975630523, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe the CCT, the dash was changed. I want to say they called it Met Ops [phonetic] but I’m not for sure if that’s the right terminology. Clayton [H. Hamm] could tell you more of those kind of details. I do know we did some upgrades to the middeck in the FFT for structural purposes. That’s pretty well an all-wood trainer, made of all just wood, so we did some upgrades for floor-loading. The CCT, we took the airlock out of it because we no longer have an internal airlock inside the trainers. So after we lost—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Columbia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes,\\n\\n Columbia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were these trainers built in-house, or were they built by contractors?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.186331084033917, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I believe the CCT, the dash was changed. I want to say they called it Met Ops [phonetic] but I’m not for sure if that’s the right terminology. Clayton [H. Hamm] could tell you more of those kind of details. I do know we did some upgrades to the middeck in the FFT for structural purposes. That’s pretty well an all-wood trainer, made of all just wood, so we did some upgrades for floor-loading. The CCT, we took the airlock out of it because we no longer have an internal airlock inside the trainers. So after we lost—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Columbia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes,\\n\\n Columbia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were these trainers built in-house, or were they built by contractors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT, I believe, was built in 9 South. FFT was built in 9 South. CCTII was contracted through Johnson Engineering. They had the, I guess you could say, the aluminum shell built, and then it was shipped to Building 220, where the Johnson Engineering contract assembled all the internal components, the wire and harnesses, the seats, all the electronics. All that was done in-house, and then it was moved over here and there was some further work done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are the CCTs mainly made of aluminum, or are they also made of wood like the FFT?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.762590093371017, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes,\\n\\n Columbia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were these trainers built in-house, or were they built by contractors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT, I believe, was built in 9 South. FFT was built in 9 South. CCTII was contracted through Johnson Engineering. They had the, I guess you could say, the aluminum shell built, and then it was shipped to Building 220, where the Johnson Engineering contract assembled all the internal components, the wire and harnesses, the seats, all the electronics. All that was done in-house, and then it was moved over here and there was some further work done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are the CCTs mainly made of aluminum, or are they also made of wood like the FFT?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT is some aluminum and mostly wood. CCTII is pretty well all aluminum, the skin, everything. The primary, secondary structure is almost 100 percent aluminum."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about some of the other facilities like the Tile Repair Training Area and why that was established?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.291766770412242, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT, I believe, was built in 9 South. FFT was built in 9 South. CCTII was contracted through Johnson Engineering. They had the, I guess you could say, the aluminum shell built, and then it was shipped to Building 220, where the Johnson Engineering contract assembled all the internal components, the wire and harnesses, the seats, all the electronics. All that was done in-house, and then it was moved over here and there was some further work done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are the CCTs mainly made of aluminum, or are they also made of wood like the FFT?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT is some aluminum and mostly wood. CCTII is pretty well all aluminum, the skin, everything. The primary, secondary structure is almost 100 percent aluminum."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about some of the other facilities like the Tile Repair Training Area and why that was established?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Tile Repair had come along probably four, five years ago, after we lost [\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n ], and basically what that class is for is once they’re in orbit, they can look for tiles missing and possibly try to go in and repair them. I don't know if they have replacement tiles, but I know they have what they call the Goo Gun, which is basically like a high-dollar caulking gun. They practice playing with the caulk or whatever kind of silicone-type material it is, so when they reenter they don’t have hotspots, usually it’s on the leading edge of the wing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, we’ve seen a few people come in here with the undergarments for the spacesuits. When they’re in the trainers and in this Tile Repair Area, are they wearing suits?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.76862974490249, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "CCT is some aluminum and mostly wood. CCTII is pretty well all aluminum, the skin, everything. The primary, secondary structure is almost 100 percent aluminum."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us about some of the other facilities like the Tile Repair Training Area and why that was established?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Tile Repair had come along probably four, five years ago, after we lost [\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n ], and basically what that class is for is once they’re in orbit, they can look for tiles missing and possibly try to go in and repair them. I don't know if they have replacement tiles, but I know they have what they call the Goo Gun, which is basically like a high-dollar caulking gun. They practice playing with the caulk or whatever kind of silicone-type material it is, so when they reenter they don’t have hotspots, usually it’s on the leading edge of the wing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, we’ve seen a few people come in here with the undergarments for the spacesuits. When they’re in the trainers and in this Tile Repair Area, are they wearing suits?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think Tile Repair does suited subjects. We call them suited subjects, whether they’re crew or non-crew personnel. They do in the trainers, but as far as E Wing, I’ve never seen them do a suited person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you also tell us about the ET [External Tank] Umbilical Door Trainer?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.298477494336101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Tile Repair had come along probably four, five years ago, after we lost [\\n\\n Columbia\\n\\n ], and basically what that class is for is once they’re in orbit, they can look for tiles missing and possibly try to go in and repair them. I don't know if they have replacement tiles, but I know they have what they call the Goo Gun, which is basically like a high-dollar caulking gun. They practice playing with the caulk or whatever kind of silicone-type material it is, so when they reenter they don’t have hotspots, usually it’s on the leading edge of the wing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, we’ve seen a few people come in here with the undergarments for the spacesuits. When they’re in the trainers and in this Tile Repair Area, are they wearing suits?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think Tile Repair does suited subjects. We call them suited subjects, whether they’re crew or non-crew personnel. They do in the trainers, but as far as E Wing, I’ve never seen them do a suited person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you also tell us about the ET [External Tank] Umbilical Door Trainer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About the only thing I really know about it—it’s been around for, I don't know, a long time. I want to say a year or so ago, I believe there were some parts on the ET door that’s in orbit that broke, and they came over here and took some parts off of our trainer because they were pretty well downgraded flight hardware, so they actually took the parts, flew them, and replaced them. So we no longer have the parts. I think they made some parts that would work to replace what they took, but I don’t think they’re to the quality of what was in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever have to reconfigure your facility at all for new Space Shuttle missions, or are all the trainers are pretty much set?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.776086104817889, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think Tile Repair does suited subjects. We call them suited subjects, whether they’re crew or non-crew personnel. They do in the trainers, but as far as E Wing, I’ve never seen them do a suited person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you also tell us about the ET [External Tank] Umbilical Door Trainer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About the only thing I really know about it—it’s been around for, I don't know, a long time. I want to say a year or so ago, I believe there were some parts on the ET door that’s in orbit that broke, and they came over here and took some parts off of our trainer because they were pretty well downgraded flight hardware, so they actually took the parts, flew them, and replaced them. So we no longer have the parts. I think they made some parts that would work to replace what they took, but I don’t think they’re to the quality of what was in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever have to reconfigure your facility at all for new Space Shuttle missions, or are all the trainers are pretty much set?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the trainers are pretty well set in place, and we haven’t moved any trainers in probably ten years. The way everything is set now with Station and Shuttle is pretty well the way it is. The only thing that we change, we may do upgrades, whether it’s electrical or structural, for certain types of classes. We set the trainers up for whatever class it is with the hardware that we have here in the building, and it’s constantly rotating. You’ll set it up in the morning for one class, they’ll go in and tear it down to a normal configuration, and then they will bring new hardware in for the next class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us an example of some of the different upgrades or changes that you might make for specific classes?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.084540116464321, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About the only thing I really know about it—it’s been around for, I don't know, a long time. I want to say a year or so ago, I believe there were some parts on the ET door that’s in orbit that broke, and they came over here and took some parts off of our trainer because they were pretty well downgraded flight hardware, so they actually took the parts, flew them, and replaced them. So we no longer have the parts. I think they made some parts that would work to replace what they took, but I don’t think they’re to the quality of what was in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever have to reconfigure your facility at all for new Space Shuttle missions, or are all the trainers are pretty much set?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the trainers are pretty well set in place, and we haven’t moved any trainers in probably ten years. The way everything is set now with Station and Shuttle is pretty well the way it is. The only thing that we change, we may do upgrades, whether it’s electrical or structural, for certain types of classes. We set the trainers up for whatever class it is with the hardware that we have here in the building, and it’s constantly rotating. You’ll set it up in the morning for one class, they’ll go in and tear it down to a normal configuration, and then they will bring new hardware in for the next class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us an example of some of the different upgrades or changes that you might make for specific classes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, like, Met Ops [phonetic] was one of them—I believe that’s the right term. Most of the upgrades that’s done now, I would have to say, is pretty well in Station. The last year or so, we’ve slowly started backing off of any kind of structural upgrades to the Shuttle trainers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any specific Space Shuttle missions that you supported that really stand out clearly in your mind?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 14.538377907182578, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the trainers are pretty well set in place, and we haven’t moved any trainers in probably ten years. The way everything is set now with Station and Shuttle is pretty well the way it is. The only thing that we change, we may do upgrades, whether it’s electrical or structural, for certain types of classes. We set the trainers up for whatever class it is with the hardware that we have here in the building, and it’s constantly rotating. You’ll set it up in the morning for one class, they’ll go in and tear it down to a normal configuration, and then they will bring new hardware in for the next class."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give us an example of some of the different upgrades or changes that you might make for specific classes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, like, Met Ops [phonetic] was one of them—I believe that’s the right term. Most of the upgrades that’s done now, I would have to say, is pretty well in Station. The last year or so, we’ve slowly started backing off of any kind of structural upgrades to the Shuttle trainers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any specific Space Shuttle missions that you supported that really stand out clearly in your mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure they’re all memorable."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.487086563536199, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, like, Met Ops [phonetic] was one of them—I believe that’s the right term. Most of the upgrades that’s done now, I would have to say, is pretty well in Station. The last year or so, we’ve slowly started backing off of any kind of structural upgrades to the Shuttle trainers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any specific Space Shuttle missions that you supported that really stand out clearly in your mind?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure they’re all memorable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s so many. They’re all fun. They’re all exciting to work on, and the different crews and the different hardware. I would have to say—I wasn’t working in this building—but one of the memorable would have been when the Ku-band antennas, the first one actually came onsite. I worked in the Rigging Department, and we escorted it, unloaded it off a plane in Ellington Field [Houston, TX] and took it to Building 17, maybe. That was a long time ago. Then from there it went to Building 44 for testing. God, there’s just so many. That one always sticks out because of the procedures we went through. Actually had a military escort and the whole nine yards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were here during STS-26. Do you have any recollections of that return to flight and training of that crew? Did that change how things were operated here in Building 9?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.601341436464443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s so many. They’re all fun. They’re all exciting to work on, and the different crews and the different hardware. I would have to say—I wasn’t working in this building—but one of the memorable would have been when the Ku-band antennas, the first one actually came onsite. I worked in the Rigging Department, and we escorted it, unloaded it off a plane in Ellington Field [Houston, TX] and took it to Building 17, maybe. That was a long time ago. Then from there it went to Building 44 for testing. God, there’s just so many. That one always sticks out because of the procedures we went through. Actually had a military escort and the whole nine yards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were here during STS-26. Do you have any recollections of that return to flight and training of that crew? Did that change how things were operated here in Building 9?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean when we first fired up and started flying again?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. God, we probably had six or seven platforms built for media throughout the building for filming, and they were pretty well here until the whole, was it 13 or 14 days, until they actually landed. So there was a lot of hype here in the building, because we had a lot of people from all over the world here to film. It was pretty exciting, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can imagine. For that flight, they also added the crew escape capability. Did that change how you trained?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.088075847486968, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. God, we probably had six or seven platforms built for media throughout the building for filming, and they were pretty well here until the whole, was it 13 or 14 days, until they actually landed. So there was a lot of hype here in the building, because we had a lot of people from all over the world here to film. It was pretty exciting, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can imagine. For that flight, they also added the crew escape capability. Did that change how you trained?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The escape pole?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I’ve seen them actually, what they call firing the arm, the pole. I’ve not been involved with a lot of the training on that. There’s some pros and cons on that piece of hardware. Because, with what I know about it, there’s such a small window when you can actually use that arm. You can’t be going over a certain speed, you’ve got to be at a certain altitude, that kind of stuff. So as far as a lot of training, I’ve seen a couple of classes, but I’m not real familiar with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier, you had mentioned the Canadarm, that it was here and that it has been excessed. Can you tell us about Manipulator and Development Facility when it was here, and what it was used for?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.51832929048463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The other arm, you mean?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they do. They have some lightweight helium-filled type modules. They practice. I guess these balloons are the size of, say, a lab or a node, and they practice sticking it in the cargo bay. They have a cargo bay on the east end that’s mounted on its side, doesn’t have any doors, but they just practice putting it inside. They actually have a little cupola down there, which is like six windows and a window on the top, that they sit in and they operate the arm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting. Do you have any recollections of a time when this facility was used when a mission was up and there was a problem, and you guys were called on to help remedy the situation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would have to say I know there was one, and I can’t tell you the mission it was. The Shuttle hatch—they could not open for whatever reason it was, and in the middle of the night they came over here to Building 9. We opened it for them, and then engineers actually went in and went through our hatch step by step and wrote basically a step by step procedure for the astronauts until they got to exactly what was wrong with it. They figured it out, and they communicated to them the steps they needed to take to actually be able to open the hatch.\\n\\n Then there was one a few years ago, they came to the building to look at, I want to say, one of the blankets that is on the Station. They went through the blankets, the materials, and I don’t actually know why they were doing it or what it was for. But they figured out what they needed to, and then they were gone. So they do come in and out during missions or flights, and of course if it’s a Station issue it could be any time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that fairly common for the Space Shuttle Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.751023815413122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would have to say I know there was one, and I can’t tell you the mission it was. The Shuttle hatch—they could not open for whatever reason it was, and in the middle of the night they came over here to Building 9. We opened it for them, and then engineers actually went in and went through our hatch step by step and wrote basically a step by step procedure for the astronauts until they got to exactly what was wrong with it. They figured it out, and they communicated to them the steps they needed to take to actually be able to open the hatch.\\n\\n Then there was one a few years ago, they came to the building to look at, I want to say, one of the blankets that is on the Station. They went through the blankets, the materials, and I don’t actually know why they were doing it or what it was for. But they figured out what they needed to, and then they were gone. So they do come in and out during missions or flights, and of course if it’s a Station issue it could be any time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that fairly common for the Space Shuttle Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn’t say a whole lot. It seems like if you tried to average it out, that I know about, maybe every other year you get something that’s really highly profiled and they need to come in the building and figure out a problem. So as far as training, there is other reasons they use the trainers. It depends on what it is. The fidelity of the hardware they’re wanting to use. We may not have that fidelity, depending on what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier, you had mentioned the Department of Defense [DoD]. I was curious what problems or difficulties you might have had with classified flights and how you dealt with that. How did you deal with working with the military?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Are you talking about with the Ku-band antenna?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, working with the military. Early on the in the Space Shuttle program, we had a number of DoD flights. Did that create any problems for you, being that we were a civilian agency and very open?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.056693128236802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn’t say a whole lot. It seems like if you tried to average it out, that I know about, maybe every other year you get something that’s really highly profiled and they need to come in the building and figure out a problem. So as far as training, there is other reasons they use the trainers. It depends on what it is. The fidelity of the hardware they’re wanting to use. We may not have that fidelity, depending on what it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Earlier, you had mentioned the Department of Defense [DoD]. I was curious what problems or difficulties you might have had with classified flights and how you dealt with that. How did you deal with working with the military?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Are you talking about with the Ku-band antenna?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, working with the military. Early on the in the Space Shuttle program, we had a number of DoD flights. Did that create any problems for you, being that we were a civilian agency and very open?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not for me, because I went through the actual paperwork to be badged for the buildings. Back then I was in the Rigging Department and I had to go into Building 5, Building 30, Building 9, and do different jobs. It affected me? No, not really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the operations in this facility? Was that a complication in terms of doing classes or running simulations?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.008263121280002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not for me, because I went through the actual paperwork to be badged for the buildings. Back then I was in the Rigging Department and I had to go into Building 5, Building 30, Building 9, and do different jobs. It affected me? No, not really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the operations in this facility? Was that a complication in terms of doing classes or running simulations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For DoD?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn’t in this building at that time. Probably Steve [Stephen J.] Elliot could tell you. I don’t remember DoD affecting the training in the building, but I wouldn’t swear to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure, I understand that. Who have been some of the main contractors who have supported the building since you’ve been working here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.342514579200003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For DoD?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn’t in this building at that time. Probably Steve [Stephen J.] Elliot could tell you. I don’t remember DoD affecting the training in the building, but I wouldn’t swear to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure, I understand that. Who have been some of the main contractors who have supported the building since you’ve been working here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to say before my time it was Bendix, then it was Johnson Engineering, SPACEHAB, and now Raytheon which is an umbrella contract. Basically you have Raytheon as the prime, and there’s five or six subcontracts to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people currently work in the facility as compared to when you first started?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.713905088000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn’t in this building at that time. Probably Steve [Stephen J.] Elliot could tell you. I don’t remember DoD affecting the training in the building, but I wouldn’t swear to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure, I understand that. Who have been some of the main contractors who have supported the building since you’ve been working here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to say before my time it was Bendix, then it was Johnson Engineering, SPACEHAB, and now Raytheon which is an umbrella contract. Basically you have Raytheon as the prime, and there’s five or six subcontracts to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people currently work in the facility as compared to when you first started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In this building? I want to say for Shuttle, to support Shuttle and Station training, I want to say there’s like between 70 and 75 people that’s housed in the building. There may be more people that support the contract. You know, you have offsite people, your admin people, people in your shipping and receiving department. So actually housed in the building, there’s around 70."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When there’s a simulation going on, how many people are working those simulations or classes?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.237672320000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to say before my time it was Bendix, then it was Johnson Engineering, SPACEHAB, and now Raytheon which is an umbrella contract. Basically you have Raytheon as the prime, and there’s five or six subcontracts to them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people currently work in the facility as compared to when you first started?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In this building? I want to say for Shuttle, to support Shuttle and Station training, I want to say there’s like between 70 and 75 people that’s housed in the building. There may be more people that support the contract. You know, you have offsite people, your admin people, people in your shipping and receiving department. So actually housed in the building, there’s around 70."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When there’s a simulation going on, how many people are working those simulations or classes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It could be anywhere from two to four technicians to set the class up, and then you have, it could be one, two, or six crew members, the instructors and the staff that actually works with the instructors. You may have suit techs [technicians]. If you’re going to have suits involved, you have suit techs. There could be four to six suit techs. Depending on how many astronauts you have, pretty well you have a person, I believe, one per suit assigned, and they actually help whatever astronaut they’re assigned to, or suited subject."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know when JSC began transitioning from the Apollo crew training to Space Shuttle crew training? Has anyone talked to you about that? I know you started in ’82."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.708524800000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In this building? I want to say for Shuttle, to support Shuttle and Station training, I want to say there’s like between 70 and 75 people that’s housed in the building. There may be more people that support the contract. You know, you have offsite people, your admin people, people in your shipping and receiving department. So actually housed in the building, there’s around 70."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When there’s a simulation going on, how many people are working those simulations or classes?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It could be anywhere from two to four technicians to set the class up, and then you have, it could be one, two, or six crew members, the instructors and the staff that actually works with the instructors. You may have suit techs [technicians]. If you’re going to have suits involved, you have suit techs. There could be four to six suit techs. Depending on how many astronauts you have, pretty well you have a person, I believe, one per suit assigned, and they actually help whatever astronaut they’re assigned to, or suited subject."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know when JSC began transitioning from the Apollo crew training to Space Shuttle crew training? Has anyone talked to you about that? I know you started in ’82."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I want to say it was in the early ‘70s or mid ‘70s, but no, I was in high school then. (laughter)"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I figured. I just thought I would ask. I think I’ve hit most of my questions. Other than the people that you mentioned earlier, Ronny [Ronald L.] Newman and Clayton Hamm and Steve Elliot, are there any other people, you think, that we might talk to about the history of the building or the trainers themselves?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.168, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, 9B was added, or the west end, was added for the Station. It started out very low fidelity trainers. Not even trainers. They were really mockups. Some people still call the trainers mockups. I prefer to call them trainers, but some people you will hear call them mockups. Station started out, they actually installed a system that kind of represented the structure of Station, and it had an elevated platform on it with an arm. That was around for a few years, and then it went away. They brought in a lunar habitat back in the ‘80s. It was like three or four levels. It was around for a few years, mostly evaluations. The Hubble [Space] Telescope was actually fully assembled in the building. It was approximately 50 feet high, full-scale. Now we have part of that in the building, and that’s where most of the training is. It’s on the Hubble doors. The astronauts train on the Hubble doors. As far as the building, there’s been quite a few mods over the years. The Space Center Houston Catwalk, for one, was added for tourists."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When was that added?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "God, I want to say it was in the early ‘90s. No, maybe it was the mid ‘90s, because early ‘90s, the 9C, the east section, was built, and it was shortly after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was 9C built for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really don’t know why it was built. I think they were heading in one direction, and engineering, ER ended up in there for research and development of robotic arms or robots, period. Other than that, that I can really remember, it was mostly structural stuff that’s, you know, cranes being worked on or upgraded or that type of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One other question I had for you. Do you have any documents or memos or letters or just general information about the facility that we could get copies of or scan for the historical record, so people can learn more about the facility itself?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really don’t know why it was built. I think they were heading in one direction, and engineering, ER ended up in there for research and development of robotic arms or robots, period. Other than that, that I can really remember, it was mostly structural stuff that’s, you know, cranes being worked on or upgraded or that type of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One other question I had for you. Do you have any documents or memos or letters or just general information about the facility that we could get copies of or scan for the historical record, so people can learn more about the facility itself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re talking about as far as old documents that I have?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Steve Elliot would be the one to talk to, because I don't know of any. Because, like I said, I’ve only been on this contract for about 15 years. As far as going back further than that, I can’t think of any right off. There may be some here. I think there’s some old drawings of the FFT, old drawings of the CCT—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those would be great."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’re talking about as far as old documents that I have?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Steve Elliot would be the one to talk to, because I don't know of any. Because, like I said, I’ve only been on this contract for about 15 years. As far as going back further than that, I can’t think of any right off. There may be some here. I think there’s some old drawings of the FFT, old drawings of the CCT—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those would be great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—and the CCT2."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those would be fantastic, if we could get copies."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Steve Elliot would be the one to talk to, because I don't know of any. Because, like I said, I’ve only been on this contract for about 15 years. As far as going back further than that, I can’t think of any right off. There may be some here. I think there’s some old drawings of the FFT, old drawings of the CCT—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those would be great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—and the CCT2."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those would be fantastic, if we could get copies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d have to just talk to him. Now as far as facility drawings, you could probably go to COD [Center Operations Directorate]. I don’t know how far back they keep drawings. They should have drawings of the original building, and then each phase of the add-ons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know who the contractors were that did these add-ons and modifications to the building?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—and the CCT2."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those would be fantastic, if we could get copies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d have to just talk to him. Now as far as facility drawings, you could probably go to COD [Center Operations Directorate]. I don’t know how far back they keep drawings. They should have drawings of the original building, and then each phase of the add-ons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know who the contractors were that did these add-ons and modifications to the building?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But if you went to COD, they could probably tell you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I’m sure they probably have that in the records. This was relatively painless, I hope."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00156:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’d have to just talk to him. Now as far as facility drawings, you could probably go to COD [Center Operations Directorate]. I don’t know how far back they keep drawings. They should have drawings of the original building, and then each phase of the add-ons."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know who the contractors were that did these add-ons and modifications to the building?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. But if you went to COD, they could probably tell you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I’m sure they probably have that in the records. This was relatively painless, I hope."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I appreciate your time today."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.91078093582054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was in college a year before I joined. Actually I had thought about going into the Peace Corps as a senior in high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the project, kind of doing some, uh, overseas activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not necessarily when I graduated from high school, but I was thinking about it then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you go to high school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.123089928689488, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the project, kind of doing some, uh, overseas activity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not necessarily when I graduated from high school, but I was thinking about it then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you go to high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to Lincoln High School in Stockton."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And during your high school years, did you do any volunteer work, any travel?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.028506084801837, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to Lincoln High School in Stockton."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And during your high school years, did you do any volunteer work, any travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did some volunteer work and then I also traveled. I was a Girl Scout, and I had a chance to travel to the senior roundup in Colorado Springs when I was a freshman. And then when I graduated, I went on a trip to Canada and the Northwest with two patrols."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I had some experience that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you remember how you, in what context you first heard about the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.689513684940538, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I had some experience that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you remember how you, in what context you first heard about the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was a freshman in 1959, so I was listening to some of that coming about. But I also had read about Tom Dooley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had read The Ugly American during that, in high school also, and looked at some of the possibilities of what an American might be able to do overseas. So I was just really probably open to those kinds of activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you go to college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.432792983267264, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was a freshman in 1959, so I was listening to some of that coming about. But I also had read about Tom Dooley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had read The Ugly American during that, in high school also, and looked at some of the possibilities of what an American might be able to do overseas. So I was just really probably open to those kinds of activities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you go to college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to the University of California Davis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your degree program?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.17628763366329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to the University of California Davis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was your degree program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Majored in landscape horticulture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was a choice because I, as a senior, had an opportunity to apply to for a couple of scholarships, and one of them was in horticulture. So I had to look it up and find out what it was about. I said, hey, I like that kind of stuff. And so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get the scholarship?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 9.084764037403655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Majored in landscape horticulture."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was a choice because I, as a senior, had an opportunity to apply to for a couple of scholarships, and one of them was in horticulture. So I had to look it up and find out what it was about. I said, hey, I like that kind of stuff. And so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get the scholarship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. But I didn't take that. I didn't go to that school because it was to Temple University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And during your college years, did you do any volunteer work, travel? You continue with the Scouts?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.760848930448504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was a choice because I, as a senior, had an opportunity to apply to for a couple of scholarships, and one of them was in horticulture. So I had to look it up and find out what it was about. I said, hey, I like that kind of stuff. And so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you get the scholarship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. But I didn't take that. I didn't go to that school because it was to Temple University."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And during your college years, did you do any volunteer work, travel? You continue with the Scouts?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did continue a little bit with the Scouts, but I did get involved in, um, I became a camp counselor for the YMCA. And so through the summer program, summer I was a full-fledged counselor at one of their summer camps. Even though you get paid, that's volunteer. No, that was a good experience. And I was involved in a couple of campus opportunities that related to horticulture, crop production, landscaping, and all of that. That gave me a chance to travel to San Francisco and meet older, some of the older folks that were involved in native plant society and those kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Did you study foreign language during your college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.8775912721586465, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did continue a little bit with the Scouts, but I did get involved in, um, I became a camp counselor for the YMCA. And so through the summer program, summer I was a full-fledged counselor at one of their summer camps. Even though you get paid, that's volunteer. No, that was a good experience. And I was involved in a couple of campus opportunities that related to horticulture, crop production, landscaping, and all of that. That gave me a chance to travel to San Francisco and meet older, some of the older folks that were involved in native plant society and those kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Did you study foreign language during your college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in college. I had three years of high school Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we didn't need to have it in college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you weren't bilingual at all?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.530656969065163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in college. I had three years of high school Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we didn't need to have it in college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you weren't bilingual at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. OK. So as you're going into your senior year, do you then seriously think about Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.729206134648349, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. OK. So as you're going into your senior year, do you then seriously think about Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college, I had, in fact I, before that, I was talking to recruiters and we were looking at different possibilities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I did apply in my, um, in the senior year and I had to go to, um. In the application process I had, I mentioned that I'd had a heart murmur as a child, and so I had to go to Travis Air Force Base for a medical exam to see if they recognized it was still there and they needed. So that held me up about six months from being accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. But you were still in school at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.25467348294261, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college, I had, in fact I, before that, I was talking to recruiters and we were looking at different possibilities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I did apply in my, um, in the senior year and I had to go to, um. In the application process I had, I mentioned that I'd had a heart murmur as a child, and so I had to go to Travis Air Force Base for a medical exam to see if they recognized it was still there and they needed. So that held me up about six months from being accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. But you were still in school at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When you fill out the application, I think one of the things is you indicate a preference for a country or an area."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 5.838526092158455, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I did apply in my, um, in the senior year and I had to go to, um. In the application process I had, I mentioned that I'd had a heart murmur as a child, and so I had to go to Travis Air Force Base for a medical exam to see if they recognized it was still there and they needed. So that held me up about six months from being accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. But you were still in school at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When you fill out the application, I think one of the things is you indicate a preference for a country or an area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And even a project. Do you recall what you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.153917880176061, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. When you fill out the application, I think one of the things is you indicate a preference for a country or an area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And even a project. Do you recall what you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Uh, I'm very open about the fact that I had horticulture background and in fruit production, vegetable production, those kinds of things would be of interest to me. Actually, I was kind of interested in going maybe to Afghanistan, Nepal, or maybe South America. So, um, I got the invitation to go to Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did you know anyone who had been in the Peace Corps up to this point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.5043532001956232, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And even a project. Do you recall what you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Uh, I'm very open about the fact that I had horticulture background and in fruit production, vegetable production, those kinds of things would be of interest to me. Actually, I was kind of interested in going maybe to Afghanistan, Nepal, or maybe South America. So, um, I got the invitation to go to Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did you know anyone who had been in the Peace Corps up to this point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't recall whether I did or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And how did your family and friends react to this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.807068861722391, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My mother was very, very supportive. A bit, this is a good adventure. College was a good adventure. This is a good opportunity to know things. And I have some very close friends that actually applied at the same time, and they were accepted in different programs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, when I got the invitation, I went to pick up my dad at work and let him know where and what it was. And fortunately, I had looked at the maps so I could tell him exactly where Guatemala was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was real quiet about it and he says, hmm, well, we haven't visited down there yet. So they were very, they were cautious, accepting, but accepting very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you got the invitation, no hesitation. You were ready to go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.341187624135991, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, when I got the invitation, I went to pick up my dad at work and let him know where and what it was. And fortunately, I had looked at the maps so I could tell him exactly where Guatemala was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was real quiet about it and he says, hmm, well, we haven't visited down there yet. So they were very, they were cautious, accepting, but accepting very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you got the invitation, no hesitation. You were ready to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the, uh, and where were you invited to, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.934652915706656, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was real quiet about it and he says, hmm, well, we haven't visited down there yet. So they were very, they were cautious, accepting, but accepting very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you got the invitation, no hesitation. You were ready to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the, uh, and where were you invited to, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, I was invited to the rural community development program in Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To train where?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.371836573007395, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the, uh, and where were you invited to, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, I was invited to the rural community development program in Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To train where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At Las Cruces, New Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. OK. So it was, it wasn't in-country training, it was."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.85759619223044, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, I was invited to the rural community development program in Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To train where?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At Las Cruces, New Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. OK. So it was, it wasn't in-country training, it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So I guess you flew down to Las Cruces or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.286217991367155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At Las Cruces, New Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. OK. So it was, it wasn't in-country training, it was."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So I guess you flew down to Las Cruces or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We flew to El Paso and took a bus from El Paso to Las Cruces."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah. OK. Do you recall initially reporting into the training site and looking at the other people who were there? And, you know, now you're in the midst of other volunteers."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.42176191337777, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was probably pretty open, but pretty fresh as an individual."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in our group there were, it was mixed singles and couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you could pick up on how some couples were, these guys don't know what they're doing. We're more sophisticated. We're from New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And this was also the height, I think, of the time when for some young men coming into the Peace Corps was alternative to the possibility of going to Vietnam."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.024179903753078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And in our group there were, it was mixed singles and couples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you could pick up on how some couples were, these guys don't know what they're doing. We're more sophisticated. We're from New York."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. And this was also the height, I think, of the time when for some young men coming into the Peace Corps was alternative to the possibility of going to Vietnam."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I don't know how obvious that was. I mean, whether it was expressed, articulated by people."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.4372591404358985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I don't know how obvious that was. I mean, whether it was expressed, articulated by people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was articulated. It wasn't. It was interesting, I would think, out of. Out of half the, half the fellows in our group were in that kind of situation. And it didn't matter whether they were single or married."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about how the training was structured."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.7548136357145387, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went into training in February and we had PT at 6:30 in the morning outside on the frost."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had, then we had two hour, I believe it was 2 hours every day of language training. And then, of course, some time we were expected to speak, try and speak on our own. We had a cross cultural training or classes. We had, we had a pair of returned volunteers from Guatemala who had actually gone and scoped out our sites, those that are on the south coast of Guatemala, and I guess some of the highland sites also. And so they were familiar with the sites and what was going on in the area. They had actually lived in this, on the south coast in a group before us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they told us about some of the customs of the various areas and we worked with, um, with them on how, talking about housing or the kinds of people and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in informal settings or strictly classroom or both?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.060904039682821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had, then we had two hour, I believe it was 2 hours every day of language training. And then, of course, some time we were expected to speak, try and speak on our own. We had a cross cultural training or classes. We had, we had a pair of returned volunteers from Guatemala who had actually gone and scoped out our sites, those that are on the south coast of Guatemala, and I guess some of the highland sites also. And so they were familiar with the sites and what was going on in the area. They had actually lived in this, on the south coast in a group before us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they told us about some of the customs of the various areas and we worked with, um, with them on how, talking about housing or the kinds of people and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in informal settings or strictly classroom or both?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Both on that, because they were part of the. I think that they actually were those that gave us some of the background and history of Guatemala, and we were going into areas that had been in the land reform movement. So we got briefed on how that all developed. And of course, hardly any of us had ever heard of Arbenz or any of the other guys that had been the dictators or the rulers and presidents in there before. So it was, it was all new to us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall if you also had a segment on American Studies where you sort of learned about communism and world, you know, the world, politics?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4010044885364676, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they told us about some of the customs of the various areas and we worked with, um, with them on how, talking about housing or the kinds of people and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was in informal settings or strictly classroom or both?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Both on that, because they were part of the. I think that they actually were those that gave us some of the background and history of Guatemala, and we were going into areas that had been in the land reform movement. So we got briefed on how that all developed. And of course, hardly any of us had ever heard of Arbenz or any of the other guys that had been the dictators or the rulers and presidents in there before. So it was, it was all new to us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall if you also had a segment on American Studies where you sort of learned about communism and world, you know, the world, politics?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't remember. I don't remember that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or do you remember any discussions of that Central America was a very politically sensitive area?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.198770973501812, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't remember. I don't remember that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or do you remember any discussions of that Central America was a very politically sensitive area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't really, um, it really wasn't thrown in of how politically sensitive it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just knew that there was trouble there, but we didn't I don't recall them making the connection about how. We were very concerned what was going on there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no cautions about, you know, what you say, what you're not to say."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.66530108166868, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It wasn't really, um, it really wasn't thrown in of how politically sensitive it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just knew that there was trouble there, but we didn't I don't recall them making the connection about how. We were very concerned what was going on there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no cautions about, you know, what you say, what you're not to say."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most of, the main cautions were of just about not being a braggart. And also, it must, we must have had something of some training about how to handle if you got challenged about the fact that you're an American and you're an ugly American or something like that, because I used that when I was in the field. I had an instance where I had to sit back and just let somebody vent and go on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the entire group at Las Cruces going into rural community development?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.183667868520756, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just knew that there was trouble there, but we didn't I don't recall them making the connection about how. We were very concerned what was going on there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So no cautions about, you know, what you say, what you're not to say."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most of, the main cautions were of just about not being a braggart. And also, it must, we must have had something of some training about how to handle if you got challenged about the fact that you're an American and you're an ugly American or something like that, because I used that when I was in the field. I had an instance where I had to sit back and just let somebody vent and go on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the entire group at Las Cruces going into rural community development?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yes. However, we're not all on the south coast, where some of them are in the highlands. So we had two different cultures, two different cultural venues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you split when you. So from the beginning you knew you were going to the south coast?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.759630965023062, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most of, the main cautions were of just about not being a braggart. And also, it must, we must have had something of some training about how to handle if you got challenged about the fact that you're an American and you're an ugly American or something like that, because I used that when I was in the field. I had an instance where I had to sit back and just let somebody vent and go on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the entire group at Las Cruces going into rural community development?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yes. However, we're not all on the south coast, where some of them are in the highlands. So we had two different cultures, two different cultural venues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you split when you. So from the beginning you knew you were going to the south coast?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. About how many were in the group, do you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.399589961136735, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yes. However, we're not all on the south coast, where some of them are in the highlands. So we had two different cultures, two different cultural venues."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you split when you. So from the beginning you knew you were going to the south coast?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. About how many were in the group, do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, there were about 46 altogether when we started out, and 36 went into country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was the fourth, fifth, six program into Guatemala?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.999544401263039, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. About how many were in the group, do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, there were about 46 altogether when we started out, and 36 went into country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was the fourth, fifth, six program into Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guatemala IX."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nine. OK. Was, did, was anyone indicate during training that your ability to learn Spanish would affect whether you would be finally selected or not?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.666160445847821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, there were about 46 altogether when we started out, and 36 went into country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And it was the fourth, fifth, six program into Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guatemala IX."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nine. OK. Was, did, was anyone indicate during training that your ability to learn Spanish would affect whether you would be finally selected or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. There was an indication of that, but probably more. But, uh, it didn't pan out because those that deselected at that time, Spanish wasn't any worse for them than it was for anybody else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there were other issues with that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.2957338287198015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guatemala IX."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nine. OK. Was, did, was anyone indicate during training that your ability to learn Spanish would affect whether you would be finally selected or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. There was an indication of that, but probably more. But, uh, it didn't pan out because those that deselected at that time, Spanish wasn't any worse for them than it was for anybody else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there were other issues with that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were, in fact, there was a native, there was a Puerto Rican, and she wasn't accepted, even though her Spanish was great. So that was not a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And how were you doing with Spanish as you began?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.995259809688668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. There was an indication of that, but probably more. But, uh, it didn't pan out because those that deselected at that time, Spanish wasn't any worse for them than it was for anybody else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there were other issues with that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were, in fact, there was a native, there was a Puerto Rican, and she wasn't accepted, even though her Spanish was great. So that was not a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And how were you doing with Spanish as you began?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Poking along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm surprised it was only 2 hours a day. That's less than intensive."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.6613997885429646, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were, in fact, there was a native, there was a Puerto Rican, and she wasn't accepted, even though her Spanish was great. So that was not a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And how were you doing with Spanish as you began?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Poking along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm surprised it was only 2 hours a day. That's less than intensive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I could be wrong on how much. I mean, we did have language lab at night, and we would go in at night and get on the earphones and practice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you tested at different points during the training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.401555320603293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Poking along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm surprised it was only 2 hours a day. That's less than intensive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I could be wrong on how much. I mean, we did have language lab at night, and we would go in at night and get on the earphones and practice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you tested at different points during the training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And when I tested, when I finished, I was a zero plus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Did that concern you, were you worried about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.807346118797383, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not, well, not particularly. I mean, I could make myself understood."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when I, as it turned out, my problem was fluency and being a problem of trying to be right before I said something and everybody putting words in my mouth. Whereas when I went actually was in country, nobody tried to put words in my mouth. They corrected me as if you, as you would correct anybody learning the language, a child or whatever, that get in the right order. And so they allowed me to develop the fluency in the ear. And in a month, I was a one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it. I mean, an FS-1."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, um, what the. Oh, did you have opportunities during training to speak Spanish? I mean, in Las Cruces, were there, did you go into areas and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.674829020885982, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when I, as it turned out, my problem was fluency and being a problem of trying to be right before I said something and everybody putting words in my mouth. Whereas when I went actually was in country, nobody tried to put words in my mouth. They corrected me as if you, as you would correct anybody learning the language, a child or whatever, that get in the right order. And so they allowed me to develop the fluency in the ear. And in a month, I was a one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it. I mean, an FS-1."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, um, what the. Oh, did you have opportunities during training to speak Spanish? I mean, in Las Cruces, were there, did you go into areas and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Try to shop or anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.4380605196123217, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Try to shop or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they gave us a visit in, to families in New Mexico. And I think we did a weekend visit with a family there. And then we had a ten day excursion into Guadalajara, Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we lived with a family in a hilo, which is a small village in the area. And, uh, that was good because there were some English speakers in town, only because they had been in California for a period of time. But yeah, we got our fluency better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your agenda during the ten days, were you just alone with the family, or did you still have training in a group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.4867339106803575, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they gave us a visit in, to families in New Mexico. And I think we did a weekend visit with a family there. And then we had a ten day excursion into Guadalajara, Mexico."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we lived with a family in a hilo, which is a small village in the area. And, uh, that was good because there were some English speakers in town, only because they had been in California for a period of time. But yeah, we got our fluency better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your agenda during the ten days, were you just alone with the family, or did you still have training in a group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we were placed two volunteers to a town, and were, two volunteers actually were housed at the same house. It was a real surprise to the family we moved in with, that Bob and I were not married, and they very graciously made some arrangements. And so we didn't have, we weren't sleeping together so. Um. We were, we were to get to know the town. And that was, that was our main agenda. Pick out the major things like, uh, who are the leaders of the town, where the school was, the number of teachers and students, what the events that might be going on in school.\n\nWhat the economy of the town was if they happen to be, in our case there are a lot of goats and they raised, they were milk goats for the candy industry. They have a really good, um, goat milk candy. So we would work with, go to work with the farmers or with the, with one of the members of the family and shadow them basically the day. Go for a walk with the grandmother and listen to her chatter to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did it feel to? I mean, you're now in another totally different environment. And, you know, so I think sort of one of the things you wanted in joining the Peace Corps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5408154563115083, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we lived with a family in a hilo, which is a small village in the area. And, uh, that was good because there were some English speakers in town, only because they had been in California for a period of time. But yeah, we got our fluency better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your agenda during the ten days, were you just alone with the family, or did you still have training in a group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we were placed two volunteers to a town, and were, two volunteers actually were housed at the same house. It was a real surprise to the family we moved in with, that Bob and I were not married, and they very graciously made some arrangements. And so we didn't have, we weren't sleeping together so. Um. We were, we were to get to know the town. And that was, that was our main agenda. Pick out the major things like, uh, who are the leaders of the town, where the school was, the number of teachers and students, what the events that might be going on in school.\n\nWhat the economy of the town was if they happen to be, in our case there are a lot of goats and they raised, they were milk goats for the candy industry. They have a really good, um, goat milk candy. So we would work with, go to work with the farmers or with the, with one of the members of the family and shadow them basically the day. Go for a walk with the grandmother and listen to her chatter to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did it feel to? I mean, you're now in another totally different environment. And, you know, so I think sort of one of the things you wanted in joining the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I was very curious, very interested in what was going on. I was very comfortable with everything except that somebody, a neighbor or somebody else in town, wanted to see what I looked like. So they climbed up on the window and looked in the window at night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. That would be a little disconcerting."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6009060625683426, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we were placed two volunteers to a town, and were, two volunteers actually were housed at the same house. It was a real surprise to the family we moved in with, that Bob and I were not married, and they very graciously made some arrangements. And so we didn't have, we weren't sleeping together so. Um. We were, we were to get to know the town. And that was, that was our main agenda. Pick out the major things like, uh, who are the leaders of the town, where the school was, the number of teachers and students, what the events that might be going on in school.\n\nWhat the economy of the town was if they happen to be, in our case there are a lot of goats and they raised, they were milk goats for the candy industry. They have a really good, um, goat milk candy. So we would work with, go to work with the farmers or with the, with one of the members of the family and shadow them basically the day. Go for a walk with the grandmother and listen to her chatter to you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did it feel to? I mean, you're now in another totally different environment. And, you know, so I think sort of one of the things you wanted in joining the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I was very curious, very interested in what was going on. I was very comfortable with everything except that somebody, a neighbor or somebody else in town, wanted to see what I looked like. So they climbed up on the window and looked in the window at night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. That would be a little disconcerting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then we got, this is, we had a place that had a latrine in the back of the property. That was better than what I ended up with in Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And did you find that in the evening you'd try to sit and talk with Bob just to have a chance to speak English? Or did you consciously avoid that or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6676734028537139, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I was very curious, very interested in what was going on. I was very comfortable with everything except that somebody, a neighbor or somebody else in town, wanted to see what I looked like. So they climbed up on the window and looked in the window at night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh. That would be a little disconcerting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then we got, this is, we had a place that had a latrine in the back of the property. That was better than what I ended up with in Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And did you find that in the evening you'd try to sit and talk with Bob just to have a chance to speak English? Or did you consciously avoid that or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We really didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or vice versa?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9158757240791685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we really didn't try to, um. I, you know, I'm not real clear what we actually did. We did make a conscious effort to sort out what we did during the day without, uh, other family members present."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So when we would have family members and us, we were there, what we would listen to what was going on. And if I felt that he didn't catch what they were talking about, then I'd do a translation and vice versa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was the closest that we came."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were there any technical studies in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.0176396934212983, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So when we would have family members and us, we were there, what we would listen to what was going on. And if I felt that he didn't catch what they were talking about, then I'd do a translation and vice versa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was the closest that we came."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were there any technical studies in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, we did a lot with, um, with farming, gardening, raising chickens, raising. I don't think we did hogs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where was that done?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1307107704681092, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was the closest that we came."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were there any technical studies in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, we did a lot with, um, with farming, gardening, raising chickens, raising. I don't think we did hogs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where was that done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At Las Cruces."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there an agricultural center or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2563453005201213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah, we did a lot with, um, with farming, gardening, raising chickens, raising. I don't think we did hogs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where was that done?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At Las Cruces."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there an agricultural center or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's. Um. It's. They're a land grant college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK, yeah. And during the training, was it, did you get fairly specific indications of what it was you were going to be doing when you went to Guatemala? Setting aside however it worked out, but during the training time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7233817565433762, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What we got was techniques on getting to know the community and figuring, helping a community to figure out what it wanted to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then to, uh, we talked about agencies and we understood the agency that we were working for and understood about cooperative extension and other kinds and the health services and things like that of the community, of the area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we really didn't have things like how to get a group of people together and get them motivated or directed in particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps had been doing this for a couple of years before you went."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.127631798201699, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we really didn't have things like how to get a group of people together and get them motivated or directed in particular."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps had been doing this for a couple of years before you went."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean in?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Guatemala."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a store of information about it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.364035331335221, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean in?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Guatemala."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a store of information about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the story coming out of, say, the returned volunteers and training and others that this project worked, that it was having, achieving something?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.626705923705801, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there was a store of information about it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the story coming out of, say, the returned volunteers and training and others that this project worked, that it was having, achieving something?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they made it very clear that every site was different. So you couldn't say everybody's going to have a milk program or everybody's going to have a latrine program or anything like that. And it was a matter of knowing where. They made it very clear that, um, there was help for what you wanted to do. You just, it was tough to decide what it was that was going to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One other aspect of training is the selection process. Usually there's a mid board and then a final board and often there are psychiatric interviews, psychological testing. Do you recall that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.91856213745089, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the story coming out of, say, the returned volunteers and training and others that this project worked, that it was having, achieving something?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they made it very clear that every site was different. So you couldn't say everybody's going to have a milk program or everybody's going to have a latrine program or anything like that. And it was a matter of knowing where. They made it very clear that, um, there was help for what you wanted to do. You just, it was tough to decide what it was that was going to happen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One other aspect of training is the selection process. Usually there's a mid board and then a final board and often there are psychiatric interviews, psychological testing. Do you recall that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they were horrible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why? I mean, tell me about it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.781292369617133, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had a team of about, I think there were six."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Six."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Six. And there were some that were, that you got the impression they were out to challenge you, why you're going to go, give you all these kinds of things, troubles, and see how you reacted to it somehow. And there was, there were a couple, I mean, like the head, the head guy actually was. Um. You felt like he was more pro the fact that you might be going or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And sometimes their questions. Well, I was pretty, uh, 23 years old, but very naive in a lot of things. And they would ask some, what if this should happen? Well, what if this, if you were approached by a Latin guy and propositioned or whatever, what would you do? Well, I had never even been propositioned by any of my classmates so. Well, I guess I'll figure it out when I get there. I don't know. Um, and I, what I recall is that after the interviews, people were pretty closed mouth about how they went. And in some of the cases, some of the situations, you don't know what they were faced with. But a number of those individuals that were really closed mouth were deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, for yourself, I mean, did you, did you think that possibly you would be deselected or did you feel confident that you were going to make it through?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9792137440190367, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Six. And there were some that were, that you got the impression they were out to challenge you, why you're going to go, give you all these kinds of things, troubles, and see how you reacted to it somehow. And there was, there were a couple, I mean, like the head, the head guy actually was. Um. You felt like he was more pro the fact that you might be going or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And sometimes their questions. Well, I was pretty, uh, 23 years old, but very naive in a lot of things. And they would ask some, what if this should happen? Well, what if this, if you were approached by a Latin guy and propositioned or whatever, what would you do? Well, I had never even been propositioned by any of my classmates so. Well, I guess I'll figure it out when I get there. I don't know. Um, and I, what I recall is that after the interviews, people were pretty closed mouth about how they went. And in some of the cases, some of the situations, you don't know what they were faced with. But a number of those individuals that were really closed mouth were deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, for yourself, I mean, did you, did you think that possibly you would be deselected or did you feel confident that you were going to make it through?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I felt pretty confident, as I recall. I didn't know. I never said I'm not going to make it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And final selection comes and."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.199126382243374, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And sometimes their questions. Well, I was pretty, uh, 23 years old, but very naive in a lot of things. And they would ask some, what if this should happen? Well, what if this, if you were approached by a Latin guy and propositioned or whatever, what would you do? Well, I had never even been propositioned by any of my classmates so. Well, I guess I'll figure it out when I get there. I don't know. Um, and I, what I recall is that after the interviews, people were pretty closed mouth about how they went. And in some of the cases, some of the situations, you don't know what they were faced with. But a number of those individuals that were really closed mouth were deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, for yourself, I mean, did you, did you think that possibly you would be deselected or did you feel confident that you were going to make it through?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I felt pretty confident, as I recall. I didn't know. I never said I'm not going to make it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And final selection comes and."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're on board, ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the 46 is now 36."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.443473758048193, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I felt pretty confident, as I recall. I didn't know. I never said I'm not going to make it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And final selection comes and."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're on board, ready to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the 46 is now 36."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was, did any kind of group spirit or feeling develop through the training program?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0166342691953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was, did any kind of group spirit or feeling develop through the training program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. I mean, you got to, you got to know people differently than what you'd been used to getting to know people. I mean, you're forced to listen to their stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean, that was the entertainment. I mean, you didn't have TV or you didn't do these other kinds of things, and it was a lot easier to get to know other people than to do any homework."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you do with your free time during training, if there was any?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.138044265014129, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did have some like nights off when we went into Las Cruces and found Latin bars. And that was one of, that was cultural, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we had events at the married student housing. They would organize a potluck or a dinner kind of thing, and we'd set up, do things that were. We had some pretty creative cooks amongst our married folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the group resist any of the deselections? I mean, did you, was there anyone who was deselected that your group said, no, no, no, that person should go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4867158500156985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we had events at the married student housing. They would organize a potluck or a dinner kind of thing, and we'd set up, do things that were. We had some pretty creative cooks amongst our married folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the group resist any of the deselections? I mean, did you, was there anyone who was deselected that your group said, no, no, no, that person should go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There's the gal from Puerto Rico. We didn't know why she got deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you say anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8741287222396648, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the group resist any of the deselections? I mean, did you, was there anyone who was deselected that your group said, no, no, no, that person should go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. There's the gal from Puerto Rico. We didn't know why she got deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And did you say anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We asked them, but there wasn't. Um. I never really pursued it so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Yeah. Was there any break between training and reporting to Guatemala?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.6717638546168696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We asked them, but there wasn't. Um. I never really pursued it so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Yeah. Was there any break between training and reporting to Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. We went home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three or four days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To pack and everything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9686265051298553, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. We went home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three or four days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To pack and everything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pack and get everything together. And then we all met and flew to Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the few days back home, did anyone try to discourage you from going or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.298473894588728, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three or four days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To pack and everything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pack and get everything together. And then we all met and flew to Houston."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the few days back home, did anyone try to discourage you from going or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No. They were, what do you need?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Great. Great. Do you recall packing any security blanket kind of items?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.524655548132685, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had a birthday in training, and my roommate gave me an elf, I would say, I guess. And I made sure that that got in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I think if I had done it differently, I would have taken my picture album at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because people always want to know what your family looks like and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were people taking tape recorders at that time and tape players?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.5859945038675125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because people always want to know what your family looks like and stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were people taking tape recorders at that time and tape players?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mostly cassette?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, reel to reel, small reel to reels. There weren't cassettes at the time. And I, I don't remember if I had one then, but I did get ahold of one down in Guatemala and I still have it. And I have the tapes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you, uh, did you take a camera?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.5629561776142125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, reel to reel, small reel to reels. There weren't cassettes at the time. And I, I don't remember if I had one then, but I did get ahold of one down in Guatemala and I still have it. And I have the tapes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you, uh, did you take a camera?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. I took a very good camera and, uh, left it at the Houston airport."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I, uh, we were able to get. We had folks that were going into Panama and we were able to get ahold of some duty free cameras. I got one within about a month, two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any questions about using a camera?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.398711330387917, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I, uh, we were able to get. We had folks that were going into Panama and we were able to get ahold of some duty free cameras. I got one within about a month, two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any questions about using a camera?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I'm not sure just why there wouldn't have been, or would have been or it wouldn't have been, either way, but we didn't have any problems with that. The biggest caution about the camera is, where are you going to get the film developed?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Sometimes it's, uh, for the appearance it gives it makes you, you know, puts you in the category of tourists. Sometimes it's culturally insensitive. Sometimes there are political hazards, and it varies from country to country."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.887457033764352, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I'm not sure just why there wouldn't have been, or would have been or it wouldn't have been, either way, but we didn't have any problems with that. The biggest caution about the camera is, where are you going to get the film developed?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Sometimes it's, uh, for the appearance it gives it makes you, you know, puts you in the category of tourists. Sometimes it's culturally insensitive. Sometimes there are political hazards, and it varies from country to country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were some concerns probably for those who were going up into the highlands with the more indigenous groups. But quite frankly, a camera was an asset where I lived because, oh, they didn't have pictures of their children. And if you could get some and give them a picture, then they were more than pleased."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you reported to Houston and was it a charter flight or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.430507815293724, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I'm not sure just why there wouldn't have been, or would have been or it wouldn't have been, either way, but we didn't have any problems with that. The biggest caution about the camera is, where are you going to get the film developed?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Sometimes it's, uh, for the appearance it gives it makes you, you know, puts you in the category of tourists. Sometimes it's culturally insensitive. Sometimes there are political hazards, and it varies from country to country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were some concerns probably for those who were going up into the highlands with the more indigenous groups. But quite frankly, a camera was an asset where I lived because, oh, they didn't have pictures of their children. And if you could get some and give them a picture, then they were more than pleased."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you reported to Houston and was it a charter flight or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It was a regular flight, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, tell me about your arrival in, uh, where did you arrive?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.469762734930523, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. It was a regular flight, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, tell me about your arrival in, uh, where did you arrive?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We arrived in Guatemala City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we went into town. We were all housed at a pension near the, uh, near the Peace Corps office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any reception at the airport? You were the ninth group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:215", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.077514149922803, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We arrived in Guatemala City."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we went into town. We were all housed at a pension near the, uh, near the Peace Corps office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any reception at the airport? You were the ninth group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that. I do know that we were invited, at two different points, to the ambassador's house for a reception. And I don't recall now whether it was right there. It must have been one in the beginning. And because I was, went to the house at least twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was the ambassador, do you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.503103888793583, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that. I do know that we were invited, at two different points, to the ambassador's house for a reception. And I don't recall now whether it was right there. It must have been one in the beginning. And because I was, went to the house at least twice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was the ambassador, do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm sorry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we have. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about your days in Guatemala City. By now was your assignment completely firm? And are you being assigned alone? And at any point in training, did you fill out a form indicating who you would like to be assigned with and not assigned with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.040868998510596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we have. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell me about your days in Guatemala City. By now was your assignment completely firm? And are you being assigned alone? And at any point in training, did you fill out a form indicating who you would like to be assigned with and not assigned with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't have a, I don't recall having an opportunity to choose like that. And I was assigned alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In a village that was five, six, maybe, maybe ten miles from the, well, no. About eight miles from a couple of guys that were assigned on the same road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name of the village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.7120766650117725, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't have a, I don't recall having an opportunity to choose like that. And I was assigned alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In a village that was five, six, maybe, maybe ten miles from the, well, no. About eight miles from a couple of guys that were assigned on the same road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name of the village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Los Bracitos. Little arms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long were you in Guatemala City?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.346751850013081, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In a village that was five, six, maybe, maybe ten miles from the, well, no. About eight miles from a couple of guys that were assigned on the same road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name of the village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Los Bracitos. Little arms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long were you in Guatemala City?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We couldn't have been in there any more than a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any special activities at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.051946500014534, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Los Bracitos. Little arms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how long were you in Guatemala City?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We couldn't have been in there any more than a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any special activities at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just to see the city, get familiar with the city and how it worked because that was like the main touchstone place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, uh, where. So you met the staff at that point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.835496111127259, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We couldn't have been in there any more than a week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any special activities at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just to see the city, get familiar with the city and how it worked because that was like the main touchstone place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, uh, where. So you met the staff at that point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was, who were on the staff? I mean, by position, not necessarily by name."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.562340877934888, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And who was, who were on the staff? I mean, by position, not necessarily by name."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, there was a director and an assistant director. There was a regional supervisor for our area and a regional supervisor for the highland areas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All American?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was a doctor. And. An American doctor. In the staff. When I got down on the coast, the regional director was also moved down to, was on the coast. So it was easier to get back and forth to his house or for him to get out to see us. And then we had a Guatemalan doctor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far were you from Guatemala City?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.180378753260987, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, there was a director and an assistant director. There was a regional supervisor for our area and a regional supervisor for the highland areas."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All American?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was a doctor. And. An American doctor. In the staff. When I got down on the coast, the regional director was also moved down to, was on the coast. So it was easier to get back and forth to his house or for him to get out to see us. And then we had a Guatemalan doctor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far were you from Guatemala City?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, about, depending on where the floods were. Um. It was about 2 hours. No, it was an hour out of my village to the highway. And then it was about 2 hours from Mazatenango into the city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you describe your first going out to the village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.867087503623319, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there was a doctor. And. An American doctor. In the staff. When I got down on the coast, the regional director was also moved down to, was on the coast. So it was easier to get back and forth to his house or for him to get out to see us. And then we had a Guatemalan doctor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far were you from Guatemala City?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, about, depending on where the floods were. Um. It was about 2 hours. No, it was an hour out of my village to the highway. And then it was about 2 hours from Mazatenango into the city."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you describe your first going out to the village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The group now is breaking up, I mean. Had the group split into southern and highlands, socially I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.2433179057078005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The group now is breaking up, I mean. Had the group split into southern and highlands, socially I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Pretty, well, no. I guess, I guess I have to say yes. Although there were some of the couples that went into the highlands, at least one of them was still part of the overall social group. One of the things that happened is that the highland groups had some pretty specific responsibilities that were not solely community development, because they were going to be working with cooperatives, basic craft cooperatives in the highlands area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they, they had, they got their head into, to what they needed to do for those kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember if it was sort of a wrench leaving the group? I mean, you've gone through a fairly intense period and."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.048131006342, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Pretty, well, no. I guess, I guess I have to say yes. Although there were some of the couples that went into the highlands, at least one of them was still part of the overall social group. One of the things that happened is that the highland groups had some pretty specific responsibilities that were not solely community development, because they were going to be working with cooperatives, basic craft cooperatives in the highlands area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they, they had, they got their head into, to what they needed to do for those kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember if it was sort of a wrench leaving the group? I mean, you've gone through a fairly intense period and."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you're there and you're going off alone."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.497923340379999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so they, they had, they got their head into, to what they needed to do for those kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember if it was sort of a wrench leaving the group? I mean, you've gone through a fairly intense period and."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you're there and you're going off alone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I am. I've noticed that being alone does not bother me or being set off to myself. There were four of us that went down this road from Mazatenango, and we dropped off the first gal who has excellent high level of Spanish ability, very, very comfortable. And she was in a small indigenous community on the coast. But it was. Yeah.\n\nAnd then. Then we dropped off the two guys, Gordon and Kevin, in Monterrey, and they had, got to explore what they did, where they were, their digs. And they had a center made with several buildings made out of cinderblock. And their facility, their housing, was in one of those buildings. So they had a, they had a toilet and a shower there and of course, a sink. They had a concrete floor. They walked upstairs. They had a, they had a corrugated roof, not steel, but an asbestos concrete roof, tejelita kind of roof. So that was good. OK, we'll see you guys. Then they took me down to my place and introduced to the family I was going to be staying with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who had arranged that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.997692600422221, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you're there and you're going off alone."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I am. I've noticed that being alone does not bother me or being set off to myself. There were four of us that went down this road from Mazatenango, and we dropped off the first gal who has excellent high level of Spanish ability, very, very comfortable. And she was in a small indigenous community on the coast. But it was. Yeah.\n\nAnd then. Then we dropped off the two guys, Gordon and Kevin, in Monterrey, and they had, got to explore what they did, where they were, their digs. And they had a center made with several buildings made out of cinderblock. And their facility, their housing, was in one of those buildings. So they had a, they had a toilet and a shower there and of course, a sink. They had a concrete floor. They walked upstairs. They had a, they had a corrugated roof, not steel, but an asbestos concrete roof, tejelita kind of roof. So that was good. OK, we'll see you guys. Then they took me down to my place and introduced to the family I was going to be staying with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who had arranged that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The volunteers that had been in country before. They had gone down and made the contacts with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had anyone been in the village before?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.552991778246912, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I am. I've noticed that being alone does not bother me or being set off to myself. There were four of us that went down this road from Mazatenango, and we dropped off the first gal who has excellent high level of Spanish ability, very, very comfortable. And she was in a small indigenous community on the coast. But it was. Yeah.\n\nAnd then. Then we dropped off the two guys, Gordon and Kevin, in Monterrey, and they had, got to explore what they did, where they were, their digs. And they had a center made with several buildings made out of cinderblock. And their facility, their housing, was in one of those buildings. So they had a, they had a toilet and a shower there and of course, a sink. They had a concrete floor. They walked upstairs. They had a, they had a corrugated roof, not steel, but an asbestos concrete roof, tejelita kind of roof. So that was good. OK, we'll see you guys. Then they took me down to my place and introduced to the family I was going to be staying with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who had arranged that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The volunteers that had been in country before. They had gone down and made the contacts with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had anyone been in the village before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, you were the first."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.169990864718791, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The volunteers that had been in country before. They had gone down and made the contacts with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had anyone been in the village before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, you were the first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there had been. There had been volunteers across the river from our village. And the village knew about volunteers across the river. And so, yeah, I was shown where my bed was and it was a two room house without connecting doors. I mean, it's a door to this room and a door to that room from the outside, and thatched roof. And there was my bed. And I had my mosquito netting and sat down, got started to get acquainted with folks, and that was just about as much reception at the moment. But then they, the padres de familia, the head of the groups. I mean, the civic leaders actually came and we had a little bit of a reception and welcome and all that kind of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a family compound you were in, with a series of houses or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:255", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.855545405243101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, you were the first."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there had been. There had been volunteers across the river from our village. And the village knew about volunteers across the river. And so, yeah, I was shown where my bed was and it was a two room house without connecting doors. I mean, it's a door to this room and a door to that room from the outside, and thatched roof. And there was my bed. And I had my mosquito netting and sat down, got started to get acquainted with folks, and that was just about as much reception at the moment. But then they, the padres de familia, the head of the groups. I mean, the civic leaders actually came and we had a little bit of a reception and welcome and all that kind of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a family compound you were in, with a series of houses or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or little chambers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.617272672492334, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And there had been. There had been volunteers across the river from our village. And the village knew about volunteers across the river. And so, yeah, I was shown where my bed was and it was a two room house without connecting doors. I mean, it's a door to this room and a door to that room from the outside, and thatched roof. And there was my bed. And I had my mosquito netting and sat down, got started to get acquainted with folks, and that was just about as much reception at the moment. But then they, the padres de familia, the head of the groups. I mean, the civic leaders actually came and we had a little bit of a reception and welcome and all that kind of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a family compound you were in, with a series of houses or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or little chambers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was a village and, oh, the family. The family compound that I was in, it had this two room structure. Then it had a kitchen structure, kitchen dining room structure, and then it had a more formalized house with a concrete floor, the thatched roof in it also. And that was the teacher's, the actual teacher's house. And her husband was a truck owner. And so they were able to build this facility that had some walls and stuff like that in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But where did the family live that you were staying with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.959595891965843, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was a village and, oh, the family. The family compound that I was in, it had this two room structure. Then it had a kitchen structure, kitchen dining room structure, and then it had a more formalized house with a concrete floor, the thatched roof in it also. And that was the teacher's, the actual teacher's house. And her husband was a truck owner. And so they were able to build this facility that had some walls and stuff like that in there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But where did the family live that you were staying with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the family consisted of the teacher and her husband and her baby and then the teacher's wife, uh, teacher's. Teacher's mother and sister. And that was the extent of the family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so the mother actually helped out as a teacher in the school, and the sister helped keep things together. And she was about 14. No, she was about 16, 17 year old. So what happened is, what it had been is, that Martha was in, had this room and Velma had this room. And when I came, they gave me Velma's room and then Velma slept with Martha."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So all you really had was the room, and then all the rest of the facilities were common to the group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.51066210218427, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the family consisted of the teacher and her husband and her baby and then the teacher's wife, uh, teacher's. Teacher's mother and sister. And that was the extent of the family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so the mother actually helped out as a teacher in the school, and the sister helped keep things together. And she was about 14. No, she was about 16, 17 year old. So what happened is, what it had been is, that Martha was in, had this room and Velma had this room. And when I came, they gave me Velma's room and then Velma slept with Martha."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So all you really had was the room, and then all the rest of the facilities were common to the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And that must have been an adjustment. I mean, washing, latrine, the whole works."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.763850178607332, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were two latrines in town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was interesting because the. One of the families that had the latrine was a merchant and a trucker, and they had a little cantina, real good food. It was a good place to eat. That's where one of the latrines was. And that family was always at odds with the teachers. So the teachers didn't go and use their latrine. But if I were over there for dinner or something, then I could use the latrine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the other family that had a latrine was the next door neighbors to the cantina. Fairly well-educated individuals for the town. And when my parents came to visit, they, um, they invited us to use their latrine, which was easier to reach than Dona Elicia's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone have indoor plumbing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:273", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.404277976230369, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it was interesting because the. One of the families that had the latrine was a merchant and a trucker, and they had a little cantina, real good food. It was a good place to eat. That's where one of the latrines was. And that family was always at odds with the teachers. So the teachers didn't go and use their latrine. But if I were over there for dinner or something, then I could use the latrine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the other family that had a latrine was the next door neighbors to the cantina. Fairly well-educated individuals for the town. And when my parents came to visit, they, um, they invited us to use their latrine, which was easier to reach than Dona Elicia's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone have indoor plumbing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no indoor plumbing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the compound, did you have running water to wash with?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 7.115864418033743, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, the other family that had a latrine was the next door neighbors to the cantina. Fairly well-educated individuals for the town. And when my parents came to visit, they, um, they invited us to use their latrine, which was easier to reach than Dona Elicia's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone have indoor plumbing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no indoor plumbing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the compound, did you have running water to wash with?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we used, uh, we got water out of the well that was in the square in front of the school. Our compound was right next to the school. On the square."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, well, let's talk about your adjustment to the living conditions over the first couple of weeks."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.276743751856495, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it does. It does. Yeah. The thing is, you realize that you're not the only one that's isolated down here. All these folks have to figure out how to make their lives better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was your health through the first couple of weeks?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, it was good, except that I hadn't eaten very much. Or if I had, I had to. I didn't have diarrhea right then in particular, but I mean, everything was different, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it pointed out to me, probably it was the first indication that for me to be successful, I really need to eat. Get some protein."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And it was not readily available in the village or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6408263909516614, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, it was good, except that I hadn't eaten very much. Or if I had, I had to. I didn't have diarrhea right then in particular, but I mean, everything was different, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it pointed out to me, probably it was the first indication that for me to be successful, I really need to eat. Get some protein."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And it was not readily available in the village or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not particularly, no. I mean, they'd kill, they'd slaughter maybe once in two weeks. And there, so there was meat to buy. Families had chickens and eggs and a family would have chicken and maybe chicken for Sunday dinner or something like that. But it was mostly eggs and beans and rice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where you were living in the village, did you do your own cooking?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.045362656612957, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it pointed out to me, probably it was the first indication that for me to be successful, I really need to eat. Get some protein."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And it was not readily available in the village or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not particularly, no. I mean, they'd kill, they'd slaughter maybe once in two weeks. And there, so there was meat to buy. Families had chickens and eggs and a family would have chicken and maybe chicken for Sunday dinner or something like that. But it was mostly eggs and beans and rice."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where you were living in the village, did you do your own cooking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Well, what was the arrangement initially?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.9942748847073535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Well, what was the arrangement initially?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I ate with the family there. I'd go in for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The teacher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The teacher's family there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the financial arrangement?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.549194316341504, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I ate with the family there. I'd go in for."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The teacher?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The teacher's family there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the financial arrangement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was, um. I don't remember how much, we gave him an amount, but um, because I was living with a family, I wasn't paying them rent, I was paying for food. Later on, we finally, they, I had facility to get a hold of money that would have been my rent allowance all up front. And the community then built me a house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Well, let's move over now and talk about how you spent your time over the first couple of weeks, months establishing yourself in the village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.165771462601671, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The teacher's family there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the financial arrangement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was, um. I don't remember how much, we gave him an amount, but um, because I was living with a family, I wasn't paying them rent, I was paying for food. Later on, we finally, they, I had facility to get a hold of money that would have been my rent allowance all up front. And the community then built me a house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Well, let's move over now and talk about how you spent your time over the first couple of weeks, months establishing yourself in the village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Went around talking to people, exploring on my own, then out to visit various folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any given day, how would you decide who you were going to go see, what you were going to do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.7397460695574125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was, um. I don't remember how much, we gave him an amount, but um, because I was living with a family, I wasn't paying them rent, I was paying for food. Later on, we finally, they, I had facility to get a hold of money that would have been my rent allowance all up front. And the community then built me a house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Well, let's move over now and talk about how you spent your time over the first couple of weeks, months establishing yourself in the village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Went around talking to people, exploring on my own, then out to visit various folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any given day, how would you decide who you were going to go see, what you were going to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. The padres de familia, I mean, when we got together and they would get together say on a Sunday afternoon and I was invited to be part of that, or listen in, and then they'd say, oh, come out and see my family or something like that. And so I'd make arrangements to go visit one or another to see what was going on. But I did, for a while, I mean. Just the chores of living. Finding the bush. Getting yourself together to go down to the river to take a bath. To get things organized. To get things washed. Make arrangements to have somebody wash your clothes or take care of them yourself. Those just, those were more like everyday things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Took a lot of time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:301", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.266384521730458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Went around talking to people, exploring on my own, then out to visit various folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any given day, how would you decide who you were going to go see, what you were going to do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. The padres de familia, I mean, when we got together and they would get together say on a Sunday afternoon and I was invited to be part of that, or listen in, and then they'd say, oh, come out and see my family or something like that. And so I'd make arrangements to go visit one or another to see what was going on. But I did, for a while, I mean. Just the chores of living. Finding the bush. Getting yourself together to go down to the river to take a bath. To get things organized. To get things washed. Make arrangements to have somebody wash your clothes or take care of them yourself. Those just, those were more like everyday things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Took a lot of time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did, yeah. Although because of my background, I wanted to know more about what their, um, agricultural practices were. And probably unusually, I would go to the fields with a passel of kids and a couple of farmers to maybe help with a planting project or something of that sort. But I also worked with one farmer in particular, actually a couple of. FAO had some trial, uh, fertilizer trial projects. And so we worked with a couple of the farmers to lay out the test plots and do the fertilizing and then collect the ears afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So from even early on, you, your Spanish was adequate to? I mean, the people wouldn't simply sit and laugh at you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.851538357478287, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well. The padres de familia, I mean, when we got together and they would get together say on a Sunday afternoon and I was invited to be part of that, or listen in, and then they'd say, oh, come out and see my family or something like that. And so I'd make arrangements to go visit one or another to see what was going on. But I did, for a while, I mean. Just the chores of living. Finding the bush. Getting yourself together to go down to the river to take a bath. To get things organized. To get things washed. Make arrangements to have somebody wash your clothes or take care of them yourself. Those just, those were more like everyday things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Took a lot of time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did, yeah. Although because of my background, I wanted to know more about what their, um, agricultural practices were. And probably unusually, I would go to the fields with a passel of kids and a couple of farmers to maybe help with a planting project or something of that sort. But I also worked with one farmer in particular, actually a couple of. FAO had some trial, uh, fertilizer trial projects. And so we worked with a couple of the farmers to lay out the test plots and do the fertilizing and then collect the ears afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So from even early on, you, your Spanish was adequate to? I mean, the people wouldn't simply sit and laugh at you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were encouraged, you were encouraged about your use of language."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 6.501709286086985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It did, yeah. Although because of my background, I wanted to know more about what their, um, agricultural practices were. And probably unusually, I would go to the fields with a passel of kids and a couple of farmers to maybe help with a planting project or something of that sort. But I also worked with one farmer in particular, actually a couple of. FAO had some trial, uh, fertilizer trial projects. And so we worked with a couple of the farmers to lay out the test plots and do the fertilizing and then collect the ears afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So from even early on, you, your Spanish was adequate to? I mean, the people wouldn't simply sit and laugh at you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were encouraged, you were encouraged about your use of language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Related question. Why were you in that village and what was the padre's sense of who you are? I mean, had they requested you or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.779676984541095, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were encouraged, you were encouraged about your use of language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Related question. Why were you in that village and what was the padre's sense of who you are? I mean, had they requested you or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The little aldea, I guess, must have been a little aldea at the, long, long time ago, but very small, just a little central area. When the land reform movement took place, there were these, the majority of the people that lived in this town worked for the big landowners before the land was divided up. And part of the process was to move them to this aldea and that they would become a cooperative and that they would farm cooperatively without any guidance or even history to do so. But that's what they were sent there to do. So it had administration by the, by INTA, uh, Instituto Nacional de Transformación Agraria. And so they knew that this was somebody coming down on the part of INTA, to help them get some of the things they needed to do.\n\nBecause they knew that they didn't have latrines, that they didn't have pumped water, they didn't have electricity. And they needed those things, but they didn't. And they would go to INTA to get that started supposedly. Well, that's why I was there, is to be the, help them organize to do what they need to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was that, I mean, had INTA actually sent you there? I mean, was Peace Corps working with them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.088529982823439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Related question. Why were you in that village and what was the padre's sense of who you are? I mean, had they requested you or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The little aldea, I guess, must have been a little aldea at the, long, long time ago, but very small, just a little central area. When the land reform movement took place, there were these, the majority of the people that lived in this town worked for the big landowners before the land was divided up. And part of the process was to move them to this aldea and that they would become a cooperative and that they would farm cooperatively without any guidance or even history to do so. But that's what they were sent there to do. So it had administration by the, by INTA, uh, Instituto Nacional de Transformación Agraria. And so they knew that this was somebody coming down on the part of INTA, to help them get some of the things they needed to do.\n\nBecause they knew that they didn't have latrines, that they didn't have pumped water, they didn't have electricity. And they needed those things, but they didn't. And they would go to INTA to get that started supposedly. Well, that's why I was there, is to be the, help them organize to do what they need to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was that, I mean, had INTA actually sent you there? I mean, was Peace Corps working with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And saying, so all right. Then your role was to help the village take advantage of what INTA represented and begin to grow."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.431699980914932, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The little aldea, I guess, must have been a little aldea at the, long, long time ago, but very small, just a little central area. When the land reform movement took place, there were these, the majority of the people that lived in this town worked for the big landowners before the land was divided up. And part of the process was to move them to this aldea and that they would become a cooperative and that they would farm cooperatively without any guidance or even history to do so. But that's what they were sent there to do. So it had administration by the, by INTA, uh, Instituto Nacional de Transformación Agraria. And so they knew that this was somebody coming down on the part of INTA, to help them get some of the things they needed to do.\n\nBecause they knew that they didn't have latrines, that they didn't have pumped water, they didn't have electricity. And they needed those things, but they didn't. And they would go to INTA to get that started supposedly. Well, that's why I was there, is to be the, help them organize to do what they need to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was that, I mean, had INTA actually sent you there? I mean, was Peace Corps working with them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And saying, so all right. Then your role was to help the village take advantage of what INTA represented and begin to grow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, did you have any kind of counterpart?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.8129999787943687, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And saying, so all right. Then your role was to help the village take advantage of what INTA represented and begin to grow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, did you have any kind of counterpart?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in the village, no. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in the early months, what goals did you set for yourself in relation to what you were doing there? One was survival, clearly."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:315", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.125555531993743, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, did you have any kind of counterpart?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in the village, no. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in the early months, what goals did you set for yourself in relation to what you were doing there? One was survival, clearly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Also, I knew that I could get a hold of, um. Not a caipirinha, but CMP. Corn milk. CMS, corn milk soy product that can be made into the drink or. It's a more like a, more. We could also get straight milk, powdered milk, and do a distribution program with the kids, with the families. And I tried to do some classes on how to incorporate this. And actually I practiced myself with some of those kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you get the supplies?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.472839479993048, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in the village, no. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So in the early months, what goals did you set for yourself in relation to what you were doing there? One was survival, clearly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Also, I knew that I could get a hold of, um. Not a caipirinha, but CMP. Corn milk. CMS, corn milk soy product that can be made into the drink or. It's a more like a, more. We could also get straight milk, powdered milk, and do a distribution program with the kids, with the families. And I tried to do some classes on how to incorporate this. And actually I practiced myself with some of those kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you get the supplies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have them brought down on the bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you could, could you call in, write in, or do you have to go in and set up an order?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.858710533325609, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Also, I knew that I could get a hold of, um. Not a caipirinha, but CMP. Corn milk. CMS, corn milk soy product that can be made into the drink or. It's a more like a, more. We could also get straight milk, powdered milk, and do a distribution program with the kids, with the families. And I tried to do some classes on how to incorporate this. And actually I practiced myself with some of those kinds of things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you get the supplies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have them brought down on the bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you could, could you call in, write in, or do you have to go in and set up an order?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had to go in and set up an order."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, did you have any kind of communication out to the outside world?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.287456148139565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have them brought down on the bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you could, could you call in, write in, or do you have to go in and set up an order?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had to go in and set up an order."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, did you have any kind of communication out to the outside world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other than by going."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:323", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.763840164599517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had to go in and set up an order."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there, did you have any kind of communication out to the outside world?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Other than by going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we didn't have any phone or that was too, that was before cell phones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get mail?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.881284153826565, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we didn't have any phone or that was too, that was before cell phones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get mail?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was brought down on the bus."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By, that was the mail system. They bring you down a bag and give it to the alcalde in the town, and then they would distribute it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So early on, you decided that it was a priority, or it was a way of getting yourself into the community, to do the CMS?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.260844634353783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By, that was the mail system. They bring you down a bag and give it to the alcalde in the town, and then they would distribute it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So early on, you decided that it was a priority, or it was a way of getting yourself into the community, to do the CMS?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many? What was the population of the village approximately?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.067605149281981, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Project?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many? What was the population of the village approximately?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About 600."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And how did you, how did you know how to organize the distribution? I mean, did people want this or were they suspicious of it, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.741783499202199, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many? What was the population of the village approximately?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About 600."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And how did you, how did you know how to organize the distribution? I mean, did people want this or were they suspicious of it, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we discussed it. We brought it up in a town meeting and said, this is what we have but, um, and I can make arrangements to bring this down. This is how it can be distributed. And I knew the, I shared it with them, what they needed to know. And that was the names of the family and the names of all the kids and their ages on a card. And then when they came in, we found the card and checked them off and gave them their two pounds or three pounds or whatever it was, the allotment for the size of the family was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was working alongside you doing this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.379759443557999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "About 600."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. And how did you, how did you know how to organize the distribution? I mean, did people want this or were they suspicious of it, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we discussed it. We brought it up in a town meeting and said, this is what we have but, um, and I can make arrangements to bring this down. This is how it can be distributed. And I knew the, I shared it with them, what they needed to know. And that was the names of the family and the names of all the kids and their ages on a card. And then when they came in, we found the card and checked them off and gave them their two pounds or three pounds or whatever it was, the allotment for the size of the family was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was working alongside you doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was, there were a couple of older girls that would come in and work with me on volunteer for those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were just from village families?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.0886216039533325, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we discussed it. We brought it up in a town meeting and said, this is what we have but, um, and I can make arrangements to bring this down. This is how it can be distributed. And I knew the, I shared it with them, what they needed to know. And that was the names of the family and the names of all the kids and their ages on a card. And then when they came in, we found the card and checked them off and gave them their two pounds or three pounds or whatever it was, the allotment for the size of the family was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was working alongside you doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was, there were a couple of older girls that would come in and work with me on volunteer for those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were just from village families?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or had the family sent them?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.294594572781891, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or had the family sent them?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. It was very interesting that the, um. Some cadre of 12, 13, 14, 16 year old girls that played basketball, were growing up, and they were interested in doing things and doing and being around me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we didn't have, we didn't have anything formalized like a club or anything. We got doing going on. I have to say that early on in my service, though, you asked why we went to this site. It was of interest. And it must have been of interest politically for other reasons too, because we had a civic development group that came out who was trained at, I believe, out of LaSalle University, and they came in, talked with the folks, with the, all the men or the directors, the fathers, fathers of the families, padres de familia. And said, hey, wouldn't you like to know more about your government? Let's use them more, how you can be better, how we can be better citizens, how we can get more out of what these folks are doing. And they actually ran a week long civic training program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was this in the sequence of your being there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.771771747535435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. It was very interesting that the, um. Some cadre of 12, 13, 14, 16 year old girls that played basketball, were growing up, and they were interested in doing things and doing and being around me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we didn't have, we didn't have anything formalized like a club or anything. We got doing going on. I have to say that early on in my service, though, you asked why we went to this site. It was of interest. And it must have been of interest politically for other reasons too, because we had a civic development group that came out who was trained at, I believe, out of LaSalle University, and they came in, talked with the folks, with the, all the men or the directors, the fathers, fathers of the families, padres de familia. And said, hey, wouldn't you like to know more about your government? Let's use them more, how you can be better, how we can be better citizens, how we can get more out of what these folks are doing. And they actually ran a week long civic training program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was this in the sequence of your being there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right in the first part, probably. Well, it was, it was during the rainy season still. So it had to have been September."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So that was during your initial period. Were they resident in the village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:349", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.656508330290659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right in the first part, probably. Well, it was, it was during the rainy season still. So it had to have been September."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So that was during your initial period. Were they resident in the village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For the time that we, for that week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They stayed in the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were Americans also?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:353", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.403096704062542, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They stayed in the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were Americans also?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, no. Firmin was not an American. He was, he was Guatemalan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he had other Guatemalans that were in that training process in the program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you the only?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:355", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.781218560069491, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, no. Firmin was not an American. He was, he was Guatemalan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he had other Guatemalans that were in that training process in the program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you the only?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the only gringa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gringo and gringa in the village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.201353955632768, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he had other Guatemalans that were in that training process in the program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So were you the only?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was the only gringa."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gringo and gringa in the village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. But did you make contact with that group, that training group, when they came or they just, they were there and it had an influence?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.8411777230034168, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. But did you make contact with that group, that training group, when they came or they just, they were there and it had an influence?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, they knew I was there. And that was part of the deal was I participated. And one of the things that they went through, that I had no vision or no knowledge of was, you know, the importance of being formal in the way you run a meeting. And making, keeping minutes and the importance of what they call actas, which are motions or movements or whatever, or a statement of what it is the problem is and how you're going to handle it and who's going to be responsible. Basically a formalized motion. And that was part of the training for the individuals there. They actually, um. I'm not positive of this funding source for this project, but it was definitely tied in with AID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so it was part of the, it wasn't done on their own. And because INTA was involved in it too, I mean, they had the administrator of the nearby parcelamiento was involved in it and a couple of the other agrónomos from the Ministry of Agriculture and from INTA were involved in it, because they did some, they did some classes and workshops in, um, improved practices. Farming or farming practices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is this all during your first six months?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.156864136670463, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no, they knew I was there. And that was part of the deal was I participated. And one of the things that they went through, that I had no vision or no knowledge of was, you know, the importance of being formal in the way you run a meeting. And making, keeping minutes and the importance of what they call actas, which are motions or movements or whatever, or a statement of what it is the problem is and how you're going to handle it and who's going to be responsible. Basically a formalized motion. And that was part of the training for the individuals there. They actually, um. I'm not positive of this funding source for this project, but it was definitely tied in with AID."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so it was part of the, it wasn't done on their own. And because INTA was involved in it too, I mean, they had the administrator of the nearby parcelamiento was involved in it and a couple of the other agrónomos from the Ministry of Agriculture and from INTA were involved in it, because they did some, they did some classes and workshops in, um, improved practices. Farming or farming practices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is this all during your first six months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It almost sounds like they're doing your job, or that they were setting it up with the intent that you follow up on what they did."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:365", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.507626818522737, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so it was part of the, it wasn't done on their own. And because INTA was involved in it too, I mean, they had the administrator of the nearby parcelamiento was involved in it and a couple of the other agrónomos from the Ministry of Agriculture and from INTA were involved in it, because they did some, they did some classes and workshops in, um, improved practices. Farming or farming practices."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And is this all during your first six months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It almost sounds like they're doing your job, or that they were setting it up with the intent that you follow up on what they did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's exactly what happened, because after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that ever made explicit or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:367", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8973631316919297, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It almost sounds like they're doing your job, or that they were setting it up with the intent that you follow up on what they did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that's exactly what happened, because after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that ever made explicit or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, not in the discussion we had when I first went into it, but when they started, when I learned about the process coming in, I was definitely a part of it and I was there to remind them of the procedures. So when they took off and decided on some of the projects. OK, now what are you going to do to work together? What are you going to do, that we really need to do? And they did have a problem and we put together a request and we actually, three of the guys and I went into Guatemala City, took the busses in and went to Guatemala City with our proposal to the head of INTA, to the directiva of INTA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, three guys from the village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.856734460688461, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And down here's a river and then there's a road and this is all highland up in here. And this land had never been divided into lots because they were expected to farm it cooperatively and everybody works together. Well, the problem was, is that a guy would go out and work his tarea with his family on Monday and come back on Wednesday and somebody had planted it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So they really needed to have definite lots. They said it. We need to have the boundaries set up here that these are our lot so we can do something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Otherwise it was not worth it to them to take, after they clear cut the land or cut down all the brush. It wasn't really worth it to them yet to take out the trunks, the stumps out of the ground. And so they were planting around the stumps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they were following traditional farming practices?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.05587717515564, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they, but they knew that if they could take out the trunks, things would be a lot better. And the reason is, they'd go and plant this, the corn, and it would get up, oh, say four feet high and all of a sudden the plants would turn totally brown. And if you dug in the roots, you'd find it was full of termites and it was from."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The tree."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The trees that had been left in the ground. So nobody wanted to do that, because they didn't want the neighbor coming and planting what they just ripped up. So that was really urgent to divide the land. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Distributing the lots."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:387", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.53811996932795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The trees that had been left in the ground. So nobody wanted to do that, because they didn't want the neighbor coming and planting what they just ripped up. So that was really urgent to divide the land. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Distributing the lots."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They came in with a map laid out and said, yes, we've got it all divided out for you. We've got it set up for how it can be. And they looked at it. And we're, we're not talking about a lot of land, but it had essentially one 30 foot wide road running from the front to the back. And a second one, because this is a little bit spread out here, that branched off over here, another 30 foot road that went back to the very back of the plot. The concept is, yes, you need a 30 foot road for a truck, for a corn truck to get in there. But when you started to take out 30 foot widths, you ended up with no corn to go in the corn truck. I mean, this was their logic. He says, well, we can do something different about this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the community said, well, what can we do? And we'll work out. We can measure it out, we'll just go down this thing and measure how much it's going to be. We kind of know how many varas each is from one to the end. And we'll, if we divide it off so many per and we'll make a list of the families and who gets plots. And they did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so they were working cooperatively in dividing the land."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.8201332992532775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They came in with a map laid out and said, yes, we've got it all divided out for you. We've got it set up for how it can be. And they looked at it. And we're, we're not talking about a lot of land, but it had essentially one 30 foot wide road running from the front to the back. And a second one, because this is a little bit spread out here, that branched off over here, another 30 foot road that went back to the very back of the plot. The concept is, yes, you need a 30 foot road for a truck, for a corn truck to get in there. But when you started to take out 30 foot widths, you ended up with no corn to go in the corn truck. I mean, this was their logic. He says, well, we can do something different about this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the community said, well, what can we do? And we'll work out. We can measure it out, we'll just go down this thing and measure how much it's going to be. We kind of know how many varas each is from one to the end. And we'll, if we divide it off so many per and we'll make a list of the families and who gets plots. And they did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so they were working cooperatively in dividing the land."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your role?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:399", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0824117245902167, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, that's not the way we do things here. We take it, we take it from this point and we follow the contour of the land and mark it there. And then we, from there, we go, we go up the hill and then over the top and then mark it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so one crew started at the end of the property, one started at the beginning at the front of the property. And so right here in the middle there is a no man's land still."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where they came up here. Oh, we've got some left over. We got some left. So this is the, the habitat area here in the center now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they creating plots of relatively uniform size?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.424901916211352, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so one crew started at the end of the property, one started at the beginning at the front of the property. And so right here in the middle there is a no man's land still."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where they came up here. Oh, we've got some left over. We got some left. So this is the, the habitat area here in the center now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they creating plots of relatively uniform size?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And would it depend on the contour? Obviously, it would depend on the contouring."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:403", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.805446573568169, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where they came up here. Oh, we've got some left over. We got some left. So this is the, the habitat area here in the center now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were they creating plots of relatively uniform size?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And would it depend on the contour? Obviously, it would depend on the contouring."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they. It was plots of a regular size on the surface of the land. It wasn't horizontal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And this, what defined the overall piece of land?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:405", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.228273970631299, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And would it depend on the contour? Obviously, it would depend on the contouring."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they. It was plots of a regular size on the surface of the land. It wasn't horizontal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And this, what defined the overall piece of land?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was some private property around it that, um, a big cotton farmer had in the, in the area. And the river."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like you were extraordinarily busy in the first six months. I mean, which is not common for many rural community development projects where, you know, people spend maybe a full year just wandering the village, learning the language and figuring out what's going on. But you had a, there was a lot going and you participated."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:407", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.698082189590331, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they. It was plots of a regular size on the surface of the land. It wasn't horizontal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And this, what defined the overall piece of land?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was some private property around it that, um, a big cotton farmer had in the, in the area. And the river."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like you were extraordinarily busy in the first six months. I mean, which is not common for many rural community development projects where, you know, people spend maybe a full year just wandering the village, learning the language and figuring out what's going on. But you had a, there was a lot going and you participated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't sit in the village the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. What did you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:409", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.220091321767034, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was some private property around it that, um, a big cotton farmer had in the, in the area. And the river."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like you were extraordinarily busy in the first six months. I mean, which is not common for many rural community development projects where, you know, people spend maybe a full year just wandering the village, learning the language and figuring out what's going on. But you had a, there was a lot going and you participated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't sit in the village the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. What did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were out helping with the survey."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:411", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.688990357518927, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I didn't sit in the village the whole time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. What did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were out helping with the survey."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did that, yes. And, uh, also putting in plants, uh, demonstration plots. We, uh, we have two growing seasons right next to each other in Guatemala, and it's all in the rainy season. So you can get a really good crop of corn. And what happens is you get a really good crop of corn in the first season and then kind of a messed up crop of corn the second go round because of the build up of pests and diseases that are there to hit your new, your second group. So we were looking for a second crop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And corn was a traditional crop?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:417", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.432085538434742, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And black beans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. But we found that sesame seed grows well down there. We don't necessarily have the knowledge about how it's to be handled or where it's to go and those kinds of things. But we did a demonstration plot with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you organize a demonstration plot, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:419", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.146761709371935, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And black beans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. But we found that sesame seed grows well down there. We don't necessarily have the knowledge about how it's to be handled or where it's to go and those kinds of things. But we did a demonstration plot with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you organize a demonstration plot, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked with, I worked with one of the farmers that was near, actually that lived near me, right near me, and I was very close to his family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was his incentive to do this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:421", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.718624121524372, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. But we found that sesame seed grows well down there. We don't necessarily have the knowledge about how it's to be handled or where it's to go and those kinds of things. But we did a demonstration plot with that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you organize a demonstration plot, I mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I worked with, I worked with one of the farmers that was near, actually that lived near me, right near me, and I was very close to his family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was his incentive to do this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A total knowledge that what we could do for him and his family was going to benefit his family. He had a third grade education. His kids had a sixth grade education in school in town. And one of his sons did go on to higher education and became a social worker. And so he was very, I know this is good for my family, kind of a person. He's from the area. He was not imported. He was not one of the imported folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the interaction with, between the two of you just was such that he trusted that it was worthwhile, and you were able to explain why?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:425", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.82546187842515, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A total knowledge that what we could do for him and his family was going to benefit his family. He had a third grade education. His kids had a sixth grade education in school in town. And one of his sons did go on to higher education and became a social worker. And so he was very, I know this is good for my family, kind of a person. He's from the area. He was not imported. He was not one of the imported folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the interaction with, between the two of you just was such that he trusted that it was worthwhile, and you were able to explain why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And the thing, one of the things I did notice and all of this, in demonstrations and all that activity, is that his kids liked to be around me. And I never said, this is the way we ought to do it. I said, let's try it this way. And or I heard from the perito agrono from location that this is, let's try it. He's going to give it to us. Let's give it a try. And he was willing to do this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we tried sesame and we tried soybeans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Now this is all, we're still talking all within the first six months to a year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:429", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.957360343734753, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we tried sesame and we tried soybeans."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Now this is all, we're still talking all within the first six months to a year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, OK. I'm a person who had, out of a, in a rural community development group, there were only six of us who had an agricultural background of any sort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:431", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.619289270816393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, OK. I'm a person who had, out of a, in a rural community development group, there were only six of us who had an agricultural background of any sort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so one of the things that did happen during the time and may have made my experience in the village different from what it could have been, was the fact that I was called upon by my colleagues to help them, uh, do some agricultural things in their own communities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you whether during your initial settling in and it's clear that it seems to me that things were working. I mean, the institutions that were involved, so forth. Plus your role. Did anyone come out from Peace Corps and see what you were doing and pick up on the fact that perhaps you'd gotten all the pieces together in a pretty good way?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:433", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.243654745351547, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, OK. I'm a person who had, out of a, in a rural community development group, there were only six of us who had an agricultural background of any sort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so one of the things that did happen during the time and may have made my experience in the village different from what it could have been, was the fact that I was called upon by my colleagues to help them, uh, do some agricultural things in their own communities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you whether during your initial settling in and it's clear that it seems to me that things were working. I mean, the institutions that were involved, so forth. Plus your role. Did anyone come out from Peace Corps and see what you were doing and pick up on the fact that perhaps you'd gotten all the pieces together in a pretty good way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know if he actually saw that, but our regional supervisor did come out. He made it a point to visit one of us every week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, every week."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:437", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.70821573500191, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know if he actually saw that, but our regional supervisor did come out. He made it a point to visit one of us every week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, every week."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He made sure that he made a trip."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how often did you see him during the first six months?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:439", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.564684150002122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He made sure that he made a trip."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how often did you see him during the first six months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, besides the fact of seeing him in the office, um. And that he had a, he had a house where we could go in and crash when we came out of the towns."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this in Guatemala City?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:441", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.294093500002358, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He made sure that he made a trip."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how often did you see him during the first six months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, besides the fact of seeing him in the office, um. And that he had a, he had a house where we could go in and crash when we came out of the towns."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this in Guatemala City?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in Mazatenango, which is a regional town that's ahead of the, it was halfway between the Mexican border and the port of San Jose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far from where you were?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:443", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.993437222224842, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, besides the fact of seeing him in the office, um. And that he had a, he had a house where we could go in and crash when we came out of the towns."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this in Guatemala City?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in Mazatenango, which is a regional town that's ahead of the, it was halfway between the Mexican border and the port of San Jose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far from where you were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, it was on the highway, so it was, that was the hour out of town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And that was where you would go? Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:445", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.770485802472047, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in Mazatenango, which is a regional town that's ahead of the, it was halfway between the Mexican border and the port of San Jose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far from where you were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, it was on the highway, so it was, that was the hour out of town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And that was where you would go? Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask whether during the six months, how often did you come out of the village for whatever reason?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:447", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.522762002746719, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, it was on the highway, so it was, that was the hour out of town."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And that was where you would go? Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask whether during the six months, how often did you come out of the village for whatever reason?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was able to come out probably once every two weeks, a week or so. I mean, I. Um. Goods were available in Mazatenango, and it was also a place where we had our regional office. So if we knew that folks were going to be in, we would, uh, we'd be there at the same time so we could go to lunch or do dinner or something like that before we had to go back to do so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Living in the village, did you, did you find that you had a loss of privacy? I mean, Americans generally, we tend to want to."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:451", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.818224694749035, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was able to come out probably once every two weeks, a week or so. I mean, I. Um. Goods were available in Mazatenango, and it was also a place where we had our regional office. So if we knew that folks were going to be in, we would, uh, we'd be there at the same time so we could go to lunch or do dinner or something like that before we had to go back to do so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Living in the village, did you, did you find that you had a loss of privacy? I mean, Americans generally, we tend to want to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, here's a deal is that, I told you I lived with the family in their house. Well, school let out for the summer, which was over Christmas, and they thought that it would be much more comfortable for me to go and live in the school building. So I said, yeah, all right, fine. It's a big, huge, long thing. And it's got a stage at one end, the raised stage at one end, and then there's, there's that much space between the boards along the walls and every place else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so basically created a room up on the stage and washing stuff down below. And it was also during the time when we were starting to talk about building the house. And the community said, yes, we'll do this and we'll cut the wood. We've got a carpenter. We just need, we need cement, we need blocks, we need reinforcement rods, we need roofing, uh, we need nails. And so we took my whole allowance and got those things and then hired somebody to haul the gravel for the foundation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where in your service did this occur?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:455", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.182993450307451, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so basically created a room up on the stage and washing stuff down below. And it was also during the time when we were starting to talk about building the house. And the community said, yes, we'll do this and we'll cut the wood. We've got a carpenter. We just need, we need cement, we need blocks, we need reinforcement rods, we need roofing, uh, we need nails. And so we took my whole allowance and got those things and then hired somebody to haul the gravel for the foundation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where in your service did this occur?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was, this was in the end of six months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after having lived at the school, on the stage at the school for a little while."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:457", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.8699927225638335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was, this was in the end of six months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after having lived at the school, on the stage at the school for a little while."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I lived on the, and you know, you can live on the school stage for quite a while but you realize you have to get up at 6:00 every morning and get things going and out and so that you're not there when the class starts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. And was the house built in reasonable time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:459", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.522214136182037, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And after having lived at the school, on the stage at the school for a little while."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I lived on the, and you know, you can live on the school stage for quite a while but you realize you have to get up at 6:00 every morning and get things going and out and so that you're not there when the class starts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. And was the house built in reasonable time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was. I had it before the end of my first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your design or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:461", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 7.246904595757819, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I lived on the, and you know, you can live on the school stage for quite a while but you realize you have to get up at 6:00 every morning and get things going and out and so that you're not there when the class starts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So. And was the house built in reasonable time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I was. I had it before the end of my first year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your design or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My design. Um, I learned something when I did that. I came up with a great design, and then I realized that I needed to put the, instead of the porch over here, I needed to put the porch here and basically flip the design, but I should have rewritten it for the guys. But it was just, it looked like a lot of the other houses. It was, that was, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Concrete block walls?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:467", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0821736567322615, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Concrete block, well up three feet, a meter rather, and then two meters of wood, and not, not a full two meters, but, about that much space of screen all around the top."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Underneath the eaves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Doors or window, shutters on the windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Asbestos composition roof?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:469", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.4246373963691794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Underneath the eaves."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Doors or window, shutters on the windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Asbestos composition roof?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But no ceiling."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:471", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.8051526626324215, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Doors or window, shutters on the windows."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Asbestos composition roof?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But no ceiling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No ceiling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the room so."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:473", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.2279474029249124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But no ceiling."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No ceiling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the room so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it had a, it was basically a square and half of it was the living room kitchen kind of area. And then half of this was porch and the other half was the bedroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Go ahead."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:475", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.697719336583236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No ceiling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the room so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it had a, it was basically a square and half of it was the living room kitchen kind of area. And then half of this was porch and the other half was the bedroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And an outhouse out back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So it must have been like moving into a palace when it was finally done."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:477", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.219688151759151, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it had a, it was basically a square and half of it was the living room kitchen kind of area. And then half of this was porch and the other half was the bedroom."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Go ahead."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And an outhouse out back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. So it must have been like moving into a palace when it was finally done."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. The kids loved it because they'd come over and sit on a clean floor and play jacks or whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I gather that on any given day, you had very little privacy. I mean, there was always some either professional activity going on or informal activity."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:481", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.209491545381668, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. The kids loved it because they'd come over and sit on a clean floor and play jacks or whatever."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I gather that on any given day, you had very little privacy. I mean, there was always some either professional activity going on or informal activity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, your privacy came at night and. Except on the day that they inaugurated my house, because then they, the officials came over from the nearby parcelamiento and they were, administrators like to get in on all kinds of things that they might have really supported and they did, they supported this. So I had him standing outside my door that night with a serenade going on and the family that I was close to across the street wondering what was going on. And they were so tired that they would fall, they couldn't stay up and follow what was happening. I had to say, no, go away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's time for me, keep my door locked and everything. It was just."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the first six months plus, did you become closer friends with any people in the village, kind of as an entree into the traditional life, you know, celebration of births and marriage and any holidays?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:483", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.5661017170907416, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, your privacy came at night and. Except on the day that they inaugurated my house, because then they, the officials came over from the nearby parcelamiento and they were, administrators like to get in on all kinds of things that they might have really supported and they did, they supported this. So I had him standing outside my door that night with a serenade going on and the family that I was close to across the street wondering what was going on. And they were so tired that they would fall, they couldn't stay up and follow what was happening. I had to say, no, go away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's time for me, keep my door locked and everything. It was just."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the first six months plus, did you become closer friends with any people in the village, kind of as an entree into the traditional life, you know, celebration of births and marriage and any holidays?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually, Don Hilario and his family lived across the street. I was very close to that. So I was in on their birthdays. And they had a little boy while, shortly before I got there, and I got in on his funeral, which was really sad, because I was out of town when he died and I got back just in time for the funeral. That was really sad because I liked the little kid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a Catholic church in town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:485", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9623352412119353, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's time for me, keep my door locked and everything. It was just."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the first six months plus, did you become closer friends with any people in the village, kind of as an entree into the traditional life, you know, celebration of births and marriage and any holidays?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, actually, Don Hilario and his family lived across the street. I was very close to that. So I was in on their birthdays. And they had a little boy while, shortly before I got there, and I got in on his funeral, which was really sad, because I was out of town when he died and I got back just in time for the funeral. That was really sad because I liked the little kid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a Catholic church in town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, yes, but it was, uh, it kind of looked like the. It was one big old room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was not a cathedral?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:491", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.4353021141453155, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And it was one board thick on the walls. And it had a light that came from the generator, from Dona Elicia's place, because she was Catholic. And when the, um, when they would have a padre come in, irregularly, then we'd have, um, services. And it was right next door to my house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there were a lot of evangelical chapels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were probably three other chapels in the area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you attend any of the places, any of the churches?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:493", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.039224571272572, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there were a lot of evangelical chapels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were probably three other chapels in the area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you attend any of the places, any of the churches?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would go. I didn't because I didn't feel comfortable singling anybody out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. OK."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:497", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.221264902805644, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would go. I didn't because I didn't feel comfortable singling anybody out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although when it came to doing the Posada at Christmas time, everybody seemed to participate in that for, as a Catholic tradition. But everybody participated in that so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what, isn't there also the November 1st, the second dio, day of the dead?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:499", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.912516558672938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Although when it came to doing the Posada at Christmas time, everybody seemed to participate in that for, as a Catholic tradition. But everybody participated in that so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what, isn't there also the November 1st, the second dio, day of the dead?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not to celebrate it in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, maybe it's more Mexican."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:501", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.569462842969931, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what, isn't there also the November 1st, the second dio, day of the dead?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not to celebrate it in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, maybe it's more Mexican."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's Mexican. But for national holiday, the quince of September, yeah. Involved in the parade of the kids in all their brand- new uniforms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you parade or were you simply on the sidelines?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:503", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.299403158855479, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not to celebrate it in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, maybe it's more Mexican."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's Mexican. But for national holiday, the quince of September, yeah. Involved in the parade of the kids in all their brand- new uniforms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you parade or were you simply on the sidelines?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I was in the age group that didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. You weren't expected to carry a Peace Corps banner down the main street?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:505", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.110447954283865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's Mexican. But for national holiday, the quince of September, yeah. Involved in the parade of the kids in all their brand- new uniforms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you parade or were you simply on the sidelines?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I was in the age group that didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. You weren't expected to carry a Peace Corps banner down the main street?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the first year, did you do any recreational travel?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:507", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.5671643936487385, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I was in the age group that didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. You weren't expected to carry a Peace Corps banner down the main street?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the first year, did you do any recreational travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, yes, I did go to Mexico City for Christmas and met my parents there and my sister, and I traveled with a Peace Corps buddy friend. That bugger. We were supposed to see him last week, last year. But he didn't show up in New Mexico. Um, but we traveled. We did that. And about six months into our stay, Peace Corps brought us all together at a kind of a retreat place for about three nights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:509", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.074627104054154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the first year, did you do any recreational travel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, yes, I did go to Mexico City for Christmas and met my parents there and my sister, and I traveled with a Peace Corps buddy friend. That bugger. We were supposed to see him last week, last year. But he didn't show up in New Mexico. Um, but we traveled. We did that. And about six months into our stay, Peace Corps brought us all together at a kind of a retreat place for about three nights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Highlands as well as coast?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:511", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.638474560060171, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, yes, I did go to Mexico City for Christmas and met my parents there and my sister, and I traveled with a Peace Corps buddy friend. That bugger. We were supposed to see him last week, last year. But he didn't show up in New Mexico. Um, but we traveled. We did that. And about six months into our stay, Peace Corps brought us all together at a kind of a retreat place for about three nights."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The whole group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Highlands as well as coast?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Highlands. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it still 36 or had some people left?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:513", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.2649717334001895, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The whole group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Highlands as well as coast?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Highlands. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it still 36 or had some people left?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it had to dropped a few then, there was a couple of couples. Oh, there was two couples I think that left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what went on at the retreat?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:515", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.961079703777989, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Highlands. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it still 36 or had some people left?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it had to dropped a few then, there was a couple of couples. Oh, there was two couples I think that left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what went on at the retreat?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, it was a storytelling time. I don't. We weren't. I don't think we were tested at that time, but that was also. When did we get our next gamma globulin shots?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It may have been then, because they can come fairly often."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:517", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.623421893086654, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it had to dropped a few then, there was a couple of couples. Oh, there was two couples I think that left."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what went on at the retreat?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, it was a storytelling time. I don't. We weren't. I don't think we were tested at that time, but that was also. When did we get our next gamma globulin shots?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It may have been then, because they can come fairly often."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was kind of a debriefing and it was held at a hot springs. And so we were all in these little cabins around there with fire going. And it was about 5000, 6000 thousand feet elevation. And so it was a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been a nice break from the village and the food as well as the, well, not being in public all the time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:519", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.359357658985171, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, it was a storytelling time. I don't. We weren't. I don't think we were tested at that time, but that was also. When did we get our next gamma globulin shots?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It may have been then, because they can come fairly often."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was kind of a debriefing and it was held at a hot springs. And so we were all in these little cabins around there with fire going. And it was about 5000, 6000 thousand feet elevation. And so it was a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must have been a nice break from the village and the food as well as the, well, not being in public all the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It was a nice time deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There's kind of an embarrassing question, but were you developing the reputation that in some projects we used to refer to person as a super vol? I mean, that what you were doing really kind of was, you know, represented the best of the Peace Corps could do, I mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:525", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.169214895727256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know if what I was doing at the time in the village was recognized as something that. I think the fact that I expanded and did something in the, I developed another project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which was?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it was a tropical fruit improvement project. And I piloted it with my people in my town and a couple of others who recognized this as a possibility. And that is, um. They would plant, they'd get a really great orange and plant the seed, and be very disappointed five years later when it didn't come out the way they wanted it to. At the same time, AID had worked with Extension Service over the years before and helped them develop a very reputable nursery and an extension site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I discovered that and they had mangoes and oranges, all the citrus, and a wide variety of mangoes grafted that you could purchase for the citrus to get it for $0.30 a plant for the mangoes. It paid $0.50 a pound for cashew. You paid $0.50 a plant. Well, I worked on a project, I developed a project to actually teach the farmers how to graft and how to take care of their trees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you doing this not on a cooperative basis, but with individuals, individual farmers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:527", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.632460995252506, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it was a tropical fruit improvement project. And I piloted it with my people in my town and a couple of others who recognized this as a possibility. And that is, um. They would plant, they'd get a really great orange and plant the seed, and be very disappointed five years later when it didn't come out the way they wanted it to. At the same time, AID had worked with Extension Service over the years before and helped them develop a very reputable nursery and an extension site."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I discovered that and they had mangoes and oranges, all the citrus, and a wide variety of mangoes grafted that you could purchase for the citrus to get it for $0.30 a plant for the mangoes. It paid $0.50 a pound for cashew. You paid $0.50 a plant. Well, I worked on a project, I developed a project to actually teach the farmers how to graft and how to take care of their trees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you doing this not on a cooperative basis, but with individuals, individual farmers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did it with, um. Actually, I did it with a group of farmers from a village. They could send. I got some funding and they could send, uh, five or six people from the village to this, to a short course. And I had them come from not only my village, but they, the other volunteers had three or four people, and we brought them together and got funding for their housing and for their food. We hired somebody to cook for them while they were at the site. And then the people on the site, the agrónomos on the site ran courses on how to bud and graft and introduce different varieties of fruit, of mangoes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were so, although there were other volunteers involved in this, you had taken the initiative to develop it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:529", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.147178883613895, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I discovered that and they had mangoes and oranges, all the citrus, and a wide variety of mangoes grafted that you could purchase for the citrus to get it for $0.30 a plant for the mangoes. It paid $0.50 a pound for cashew. You paid $0.50 a plant. Well, I worked on a project, I developed a project to actually teach the farmers how to graft and how to take care of their trees."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you doing this not on a cooperative basis, but with individuals, individual farmers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did it with, um. Actually, I did it with a group of farmers from a village. They could send. I got some funding and they could send, uh, five or six people from the village to this, to a short course. And I had them come from not only my village, but they, the other volunteers had three or four people, and we brought them together and got funding for their housing and for their food. We hired somebody to cook for them while they were at the site. And then the people on the site, the agrónomos on the site ran courses on how to bud and graft and introduce different varieties of fruit, of mangoes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were so, although there were other volunteers involved in this, you had taken the initiative to develop it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it, were they? But they were still growing individually, not, you didn't create a huge citrus grove that was cooperatively?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:531", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 5.719087648459883, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did it with, um. Actually, I did it with a group of farmers from a village. They could send. I got some funding and they could send, uh, five or six people from the village to this, to a short course. And I had them come from not only my village, but they, the other volunteers had three or four people, and we brought them together and got funding for their housing and for their food. We hired somebody to cook for them while they were at the site. And then the people on the site, the agrónomos on the site ran courses on how to bud and graft and introduce different varieties of fruit, of mangoes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were so, although there were other volunteers involved in this, you had taken the initiative to develop it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it, were they? But they were still growing individually, not, you didn't create a huge citrus grove that was cooperatively?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, I just."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:533", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0212084982887584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it, were they? But they were still growing individually, not, you didn't create a huge citrus grove that was cooperatively?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, I just."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because people were, had a certain amount of pride of ownership, I guess. And also in most of our sites, a big orchard of mangoes was not feasible. We just didn't, people didn't have that have five hectares of land to contribute to something. They might be able to have two or three trees in their, on their patio or the edge of their, of their corn plots or something like that. So what we did, that was only one part was to show them how they could do that and get them acquainted with Los Brillantes.\n\nAnd then we did a, then I helped establish some nurseries in a different, two or three, two other sites. The volunteers there were working with the schools in doing gardens, and so they actually developed a garden, a nursery plot for citrus. And we went down and taught them how to do the budding on grafting on their seedlings so that and help them get good, uh, showed them how to get good buds from trees that are producing something they liked, and also brought some from the experiment station down for them to put in. Sally did one of those nurseries at her site and her team of, I mean, the leaders in her area did put those on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned at one point that you I mean, you're talking about how you're helping your Peace Corps colleagues. Was that role formalized by the Peace Corps so that you were expected to travel along the coast or the south and help individuals?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:535", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.3568983314319536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, I just."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because people were, had a certain amount of pride of ownership, I guess. And also in most of our sites, a big orchard of mangoes was not feasible. We just didn't, people didn't have that have five hectares of land to contribute to something. They might be able to have two or three trees in their, on their patio or the edge of their, of their corn plots or something like that. So what we did, that was only one part was to show them how they could do that and get them acquainted with Los Brillantes.\n\nAnd then we did a, then I helped establish some nurseries in a different, two or three, two other sites. The volunteers there were working with the schools in doing gardens, and so they actually developed a garden, a nursery plot for citrus. And we went down and taught them how to do the budding on grafting on their seedlings so that and help them get good, uh, showed them how to get good buds from trees that are producing something they liked, and also brought some from the experiment station down for them to put in. Sally did one of those nurseries at her site and her team of, I mean, the leaders in her area did put those on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned at one point that you I mean, you're talking about how you're helping your Peace Corps colleagues. Was that role formalized by the Peace Corps so that you were expected to travel along the coast or the south and help individuals?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was given a vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That certainly frees you up."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:537", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.729887034924393, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because people were, had a certain amount of pride of ownership, I guess. And also in most of our sites, a big orchard of mangoes was not feasible. We just didn't, people didn't have that have five hectares of land to contribute to something. They might be able to have two or three trees in their, on their patio or the edge of their, of their corn plots or something like that. So what we did, that was only one part was to show them how they could do that and get them acquainted with Los Brillantes.\n\nAnd then we did a, then I helped establish some nurseries in a different, two or three, two other sites. The volunteers there were working with the schools in doing gardens, and so they actually developed a garden, a nursery plot for citrus. And we went down and taught them how to do the budding on grafting on their seedlings so that and help them get good, uh, showed them how to get good buds from trees that are producing something they liked, and also brought some from the experiment station down for them to put in. Sally did one of those nurseries at her site and her team of, I mean, the leaders in her area did put those on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned at one point that you I mean, you're talking about how you're helping your Peace Corps colleagues. Was that role formalized by the Peace Corps so that you were expected to travel along the coast or the south and help individuals?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was given a vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That certainly frees you up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So and encouraged to do that. Now, did I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:539", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.14431892769377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was given a vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That certainly frees you up."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So and encouraged to do that. Now, did I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By Peace Corps, by my advisor, by my regional supervisor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it at your initiative or his initiative or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:541", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.604798808548633, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So and encouraged to do that. Now, did I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "By Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By Peace Corps, by my advisor, by my regional supervisor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it at your initiative or his initiative or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We kind of decided what I needed to do, where I needed to go and where I needed, some of the things I needed to do. But the truck or the vehicle actually came into even greater play in our third phase of the fruit development project, and that is that we would take orders for the plants and collect money from the farmers. And I'd go and pick up the plants and then deliver them to the various Peace Corps sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was being developed out of the regional headquarters?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:543", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.116443120609592, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By Peace Corps, by my advisor, by my regional supervisor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was it at your initiative or his initiative or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We kind of decided what I needed to do, where I needed to go and where I needed, some of the things I needed to do. But the truck or the vehicle actually came into even greater play in our third phase of the fruit development project, and that is that we would take orders for the plants and collect money from the farmers. And I'd go and pick up the plants and then deliver them to the various Peace Corps sites."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And this was being developed out of the regional headquarters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you begin spending more time there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:547", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.859806321740237, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you begin spending more time there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I spent some, I would say I wasn't a lot of time. Two nights at a time maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That kind of thing. But I was more, I was. If I'd go to a, if I'd go to the, say, the Benzlers' site, I would be there for two days, come back. And actually I don't recall now, I'm trying to remember how many times I might have actually had the vehicle down in my village. And I don't remember too many times having the vehicle down in my village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were driving it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:549", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.1775625797113745, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I spent some, I would say I wasn't a lot of time. Two nights at a time maybe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That kind of thing. But I was more, I was. If I'd go to a, if I'd go to the, say, the Benzlers' site, I would be there for two days, come back. And actually I don't recall now, I'm trying to remember how many times I might have actually had the vehicle down in my village. And I don't remember too many times having the vehicle down in my village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were driving it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would drive it, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a pickup truck or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:551", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.4195139774570826, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That kind of thing. But I was more, I was. If I'd go to a, if I'd go to the, say, the Benzlers' site, I would be there for two days, come back. And actually I don't recall now, I'm trying to remember how many times I might have actually had the vehicle down in my village. And I don't remember too many times having the vehicle down in my village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were driving it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would drive it, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a pickup truck or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A Gladiator. Well, it is a pickup truck. A jeep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:553", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.5772377527300918, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would drive it, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a pickup truck or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A Gladiator. Well, it is a pickup truck. A jeep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And but we had two, and we had three Wagoneers, the two Wagoneers on the coast, two of these pickups. And so I got the one that had the winch. So it was a wench with a winch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it ever suggested that you become a Peace Corps staff member? There was a category, I think, of volunteer leader."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:555", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.7524863919223241, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A Gladiator. Well, it is a pickup truck. A jeep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And but we had two, and we had three Wagoneers, the two Wagoneers on the coast, two of these pickups. And so I got the one that had the winch. So it was a wench with a winch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it ever suggested that you become a Peace Corps staff member? There was a category, I think, of volunteer leader."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I did extend a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. But during the second year, you were, you were playing this role of. Did you feel you were slighting your village?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:557", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9472071021359156, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And but we had two, and we had three Wagoneers, the two Wagoneers on the coast, two of these pickups. And so I got the one that had the winch. So it was a wench with a winch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it ever suggested that you become a Peace Corps staff member? There was a category, I think, of volunteer leader."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I did extend a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. But during the second year, you were, you were playing this role of. Did you feel you were slighting your village?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't because they were involved in those activities. I mean, and there were. I didn't feel I was slighting it. There was. I don't know. The whole idea of development is to get the people in the village to operate on their own and be able to know where those resources were. And whatever we did and whatever, it was at the right time and place. I went back five years later and they had built a clinic next door to my house and had a nurse that lived in the area. They had latrines, outhouses, on the properties. So something had happened that carried that on. And when I had a conversation with the people who lived across, the families that lived across the, who I was close to, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is after five years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:561", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2928482742418714, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't because they were involved in those activities. I mean, and there were. I didn't feel I was slighting it. There was. I don't know. The whole idea of development is to get the people in the village to operate on their own and be able to know where those resources were. And whatever we did and whatever, it was at the right time and place. I went back five years later and they had built a clinic next door to my house and had a nurse that lived in the area. They had latrines, outhouses, on the properties. So something had happened that carried that on. And when I had a conversation with the people who lived across, the families that lived across the, who I was close to, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This is after five years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was after five years. They. They never said, they came and did this for us. This is what we had done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So something that we did in that time helped that community at least come closer to the middle of the 20th century?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:563", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4364980824909683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was after five years. They. They never said, they came and did this for us. This is what we had done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So something that we did in that time helped that community at least come closer to the middle of the 20th century?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they increased the number of teachers from one to three."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, there are so many, uh, well, not disaster stories, but almost non-stories in rural community development, particularly where people have going back years later and found that, in fact, you know, there was almost no trace of what the volunteer felt he or she was trying to do. I mean, this is kind of extraordinary. And what was the story in the other villages in the south where the volunteers were? Now you're part of what they're doing because you're doing the fruit tree nursery business."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:567", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.773454422828356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they increased the number of teachers from one to three."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, there are so many, uh, well, not disaster stories, but almost non-stories in rural community development, particularly where people have going back years later and found that, in fact, you know, there was almost no trace of what the volunteer felt he or she was trying to do. I mean, this is kind of extraordinary. And what was the story in the other villages in the south where the volunteers were? Now you're part of what they're doing because you're doing the fruit tree nursery business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we went back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, we?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went back five years later with a, uh, with five friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All from the?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:569", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9705049142537288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we went back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, we?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went back five years later with a, uh, with five friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All from the?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was the only one. I was the guide actually. And when we went to visit the various, a couple of the spots that had been. We found the trees growing. We found in the. [tape break] There was a demonstration parcel and a pair of my colleagues, actually one of my colleagues started it. A couple took it over, really ran some great demonstrations of corn holler, a corn dryer, hog operation, a chicken operation. We had a big old party over there with a chicken barbecue after they demonstrated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were these volunteers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:571", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.189449904726365, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went back five years later with a, uh, with five friends."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All from the?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was the only one. I was the guide actually. And when we went to visit the various, a couple of the spots that had been. We found the trees growing. We found in the. [tape break] There was a demonstration parcel and a pair of my colleagues, actually one of my colleagues started it. A couple took it over, really ran some great demonstrations of corn holler, a corn dryer, hog operation, a chicken operation. We had a big old party over there with a chicken barbecue after they demonstrated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were these volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. They were from our group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Got it."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:573", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.432722116362628, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was the only one. I was the guide actually. And when we went to visit the various, a couple of the spots that had been. We found the trees growing. We found in the. [tape break] There was a demonstration parcel and a pair of my colleagues, actually one of my colleagues started it. A couple took it over, really ran some great demonstrations of corn holler, a corn dryer, hog operation, a chicken operation. We had a big old party over there with a chicken barbecue after they demonstrated."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now were these volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. They were from our group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Got it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I went back. Well, that was one of the things that we did is we put in this demonstration orchard on this plot and it had probably ten varieties of mangoes on it. We, when we came back and when I went down there five years later, met the guardián on the property. There were no volunteers on the property any longer. But the INTA had interest in this property. But the guardián was there. He knew me, remembered me and everything. And so while we were there, he said, come see what I've got here. And we went to his house, looked on the floor, and he had a big old net full of the best mangoes. I mean, he. These guys didn't know what they had, but he knew what they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must be very sweet, literally, to go back and enjoy the fruit of the trees that you had been involved in getting the whole thing going."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:575", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.7030245737362533, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes. They were from our group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Got it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I went back. Well, that was one of the things that we did is we put in this demonstration orchard on this plot and it had probably ten varieties of mangoes on it. We, when we came back and when I went down there five years later, met the guardián on the property. There were no volunteers on the property any longer. But the INTA had interest in this property. But the guardián was there. He knew me, remembered me and everything. And so while we were there, he said, come see what I've got here. And we went to his house, looked on the floor, and he had a big old net full of the best mangoes. I mean, he. These guys didn't know what they had, but he knew what they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must be very sweet, literally, to go back and enjoy the fruit of the trees that you had been involved in getting the whole thing going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's incredible."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:577", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.0033606374847257, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I went back. Well, that was one of the things that we did is we put in this demonstration orchard on this plot and it had probably ten varieties of mangoes on it. We, when we came back and when I went down there five years later, met the guardián on the property. There were no volunteers on the property any longer. But the INTA had interest in this property. But the guardián was there. He knew me, remembered me and everything. And so while we were there, he said, come see what I've got here. And we went to his house, looked on the floor, and he had a big old net full of the best mangoes. I mean, he. These guys didn't know what they had, but he knew what they had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It must be very sweet, literally, to go back and enjoy the fruit of the trees that you had been involved in getting the whole thing going."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's incredible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was exciting. In fact, got a picture of him and stuff like that, some of the good ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's jump back to your volunteer service. On toward, as you came toward the end of your second year, that would have been the time when you would terminate."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:579", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.3370673749830284, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's incredible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was exciting. In fact, got a picture of him and stuff like that, some of the good ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's jump back to your volunteer service. On toward, as you came toward the end of your second year, that would have been the time when you would terminate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what went on that got you into the third year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:581", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.7078526388700315, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was exciting. In fact, got a picture of him and stuff like that, some of the good ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let's jump back to your volunteer service. On toward, as you came toward the end of your second year, that would have been the time when you would terminate."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what went on that got you into the third year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the project I'm describing to you, another group came in, uh, June. Anyway, it was in, it was in the rainy season. And basically I stayed on so that I could introduce the new group to the. They were in June, they were coming in in June. It was raining. And that was when I just got through delivering the first or the second batch of mangoes or trees to the villages. And so we wanted to get another cycle in. I wanted to get another cycle in. And so I went and I worked with the new group and trained them about what we were doing, to talk to them about the whole mango process so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did that happen?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:583", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.008725154300035, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what went on that got you into the third year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the project I'm describing to you, another group came in, uh, June. Anyway, it was in, it was in the rainy season. And basically I stayed on so that I could introduce the new group to the. They were in June, they were coming in in June. It was raining. And that was when I just got through delivering the first or the second batch of mangoes or trees to the villages. And so we wanted to get another cycle in. I wanted to get another cycle in. And so I went and I worked with the new group and trained them about what we were doing, to talk to them about the whole mango process so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did that happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in country. It was near, uh. It wasn't at Los."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's OK. But it was in country."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:585", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.343027949222261, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the project I'm describing to you, another group came in, uh, June. Anyway, it was in, it was in the rainy season. And basically I stayed on so that I could introduce the new group to the. They were in June, they were coming in in June. It was raining. And that was when I just got through delivering the first or the second batch of mangoes or trees to the villages. And so we wanted to get another cycle in. I wanted to get another cycle in. And so I went and I worked with the new group and trained them about what we were doing, to talk to them about the whole mango process so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did that happen?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in country. It was near, uh. It wasn't at Los."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's OK. But it was in country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And again, were you working with the group that was assigned to the south?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:587", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.7144754991358453, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was in country. It was near, uh. It wasn't at Los."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's OK. But it was in country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And again, were you working with the group that was assigned to the south?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. And going in and replacing. Actually, they didn't replace my group. They must have been in a little earlier than that because they went into some of the other spots that were empty or vacant. And so I went and told them about, I got them involved in the project. And then when they got started, they wanted to know more about the groups that they were working with. They, their farmers wanted to know more about it. So I would go down and tell them about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your Spanish must have been pretty good by then."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:595", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.661447186611561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, the spaces in the trees act like pinholes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I'd say, come out and see this. And the guys were kind of, eh, you know, and they'd look at it. And what are you looking at? I said, look at this. And afterwards I remembered that. So that was, that was kind of neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, I stayed so we could get another cycle of workshops and get another cycle of fruit sales. And then somebody else I worked with, one of the guys from that group, and they took over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you continue to live in the village the third year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:597", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.290496874012845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I'd say, come out and see this. And the guys were kind of, eh, you know, and they'd look at it. And what are you looking at? I said, look at this. And afterwards I remembered that. So that was, that was kind of neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, I stayed so we could get another cycle of workshops and get another cycle of fruit sales. And then somebody else I worked with, one of the guys from that group, and they took over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you continue to live in the village the third year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said that your parents came down to visit at one point?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:599", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.989440971125384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But anyway, I stayed so we could get another cycle of workshops and get another cycle of fruit sales. And then somebody else I worked with, one of the guys from that group, and they took over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you continue to live in the village the third year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said that your parents came down to visit at one point?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When during the?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:607", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.274258453170833, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mexico City, yeah. But then they came in, in my second year, and they came down and they traveled a little bit in Guatemala and we visited a couple of sites. We went down along the coast over to Caballo Blanco, where one of my colleagues were housed there, went out to see what they were doing. I was delivering, I was probably delivering trays or something at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, um, they wanted to be, they came to my village then and met the folks and I had to be this translator for my folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Don Hilario came over and Don Pedro came over and they came over and stayed to talk about how they were taking care of their daughter and how they were glad she was there. And I'm like, OK. I'll translate for you folks. But they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just saying all kinds of nice things about you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:609", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.860287170189815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then, um, they wanted to be, they came to my village then and met the folks and I had to be this translator for my folks."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Don Hilario came over and Don Pedro came over and they came over and stayed to talk about how they were taking care of their daughter and how they were glad she was there. And I'm like, OK. I'll translate for you folks. But they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just saying all kinds of nice things about you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. And they were just, they were extremely pleased to meet these parents. And, you know, I think back on it right now and they were younger than I am now when they went down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they worked their way through the culture shock and everything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:611", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.400319077988683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And Don Hilario came over and Don Pedro came over and they came over and stayed to talk about how they were taking care of their daughter and how they were glad she was there. And I'm like, OK. I'll translate for you folks. But they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just saying all kinds of nice things about you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. And they were just, they were extremely pleased to meet these parents. And, you know, I think back on it right now and they were younger than I am now when they went down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they worked their way through the culture shock and everything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, my sister traveled with us too, and we went up, was there, and she was in high school, so she got a bang out of it because she would, um, had just enough Spanish to handle the markets and got excited about things. Then she came down. She and another friend came down the Christmas after I extended and did some traveling around by ourselves, and that's where I discovered my sister is crazy about fireworks and bombas and things like that cause that's, oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your third year was a continuation of what you were doing the second year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:613", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.0003545310985364, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. And they were just, they were extremely pleased to meet these parents. And, you know, I think back on it right now and they were younger than I am now when they went down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they worked their way through the culture shock and everything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, my sister traveled with us too, and we went up, was there, and she was in high school, so she got a bang out of it because she would, um, had just enough Spanish to handle the markets and got excited about things. Then she came down. She and another friend came down the Christmas after I extended and did some traveling around by ourselves, and that's where I discovered my sister is crazy about fireworks and bombas and things like that cause that's, oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your third year was a continuation of what you were doing the second year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And by the third year, was Peace Corps still secure in Guatemala or had there been?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:615", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.444838367887263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, my sister traveled with us too, and we went up, was there, and she was in high school, so she got a bang out of it because she would, um, had just enough Spanish to handle the markets and got excited about things. Then she came down. She and another friend came down the Christmas after I extended and did some traveling around by ourselves, and that's where I discovered my sister is crazy about fireworks and bombas and things like that cause that's, oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So your third year was a continuation of what you were doing the second year?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And by the third year, was Peace Corps still secure in Guatemala or had there been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were secure. It was during our second year, the group of us were headed into Guatemala City, and we happened to stop at a restaurant where an American was a proprietor there. And he says, you better come and look at this. And so we went and looked at his television and said, well, I think we'll stay here tonight. Because that's when the ambassador was shot on the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Was there other anti-American or civil unrest around that time, or was it just an individual act?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:617", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.9387092976525135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And by the third year, was Peace Corps still secure in Guatemala or had there been?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were secure. It was during our second year, the group of us were headed into Guatemala City, and we happened to stop at a restaurant where an American was a proprietor there. And he says, you better come and look at this. And so we went and looked at his television and said, well, I think we'll stay here tonight. Because that's when the ambassador was shot on the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Was there other anti-American or civil unrest around that time, or was it just an individual act?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was just an, it was in the city. That was all. We never felt, um, during our time there, we never felt challenged in the, when we were out in our sites or even in the larger cities outside of Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps wasn't giving you any indications of their being nervous?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:619", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.487454775169459, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were secure. It was during our second year, the group of us were headed into Guatemala City, and we happened to stop at a restaurant where an American was a proprietor there. And he says, you better come and look at this. And so we went and looked at his television and said, well, I think we'll stay here tonight. Because that's when the ambassador was shot on the street."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Was there other anti-American or civil unrest around that time, or was it just an individual act?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was just an, it was in the city. That was all. We never felt, um, during our time there, we never felt challenged in the, when we were out in our sites or even in the larger cities outside of Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps wasn't giving you any indications of their being nervous?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. We were told, we were told to, if there was anything, to look for telegrams and they'd tell us what we needed, if we needed to do something. We didn't have, I don't recall us having like an evacuation plan or anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. That came later. Coming to the end of the third year, did you think maybe you'd go for four or where were you at?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:621", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.09717197241051, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was just an, it was in the city. That was all. We never felt, um, during our time there, we never felt challenged in the, when we were out in our sites or even in the larger cities outside of Guatemala."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And Peace Corps wasn't giving you any indications of their being nervous?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. We were told, we were told to, if there was anything, to look for telegrams and they'd tell us what we needed, if we needed to do something. We didn't have, I don't recall us having like an evacuation plan or anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. That came later. Coming to the end of the third year, did you think maybe you'd go for four or where were you at?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, what was I was doing? OK. Well, I was spending less and less time, of course, in the village and another group came in because. Yeah. And I was replaced in the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you meet your replacement?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:623", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.7746355249005665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. We were told, we were told to, if there was anything, to look for telegrams and they'd tell us what we needed, if we needed to do something. We didn't have, I don't recall us having like an evacuation plan or anything like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. That came later. Coming to the end of the third year, did you think maybe you'd go for four or where were you at?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, what was I was doing? OK. Well, I was spending less and less time, of course, in the village and another group came in because. Yeah. And I was replaced in the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you meet your replacement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did she or he inherit your house?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:625", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.416261694333962, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, what was I was doing? OK. Well, I was spending less and less time, of course, in the village and another group came in because. Yeah. And I was replaced in the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you meet your replacement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did she or he inherit your house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He inherited my house. And um, I don't remember what his, whether it was still rural development or just what his responsibilities were. I seem to be, you know, got the trees on the ground and distributed that year. And I had become more acquainted with some other volunteers for, that were in a fisheries project. So I had an opportunity to explore the countryside where they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just going to encourage them or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:627", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.129179660371069, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I did. I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did she or he inherit your house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He inherited my house. And um, I don't remember what his, whether it was still rural development or just what his responsibilities were. I seem to be, you know, got the trees on the ground and distributed that year. And I had become more acquainted with some other volunteers for, that were in a fisheries project. So I had an opportunity to explore the countryside where they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just going to encourage them or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To encourage them, to see what the tropics, the agricultural stuff was around the area. But also it was, I got probably a little bit more social."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were sort of also in the semi staff position. I mean, clearly you just weren't a volunteer in a village."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:629", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.921310733745631, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He inherited my house. And um, I don't remember what his, whether it was still rural development or just what his responsibilities were. I seem to be, you know, got the trees on the ground and distributed that year. And I had become more acquainted with some other volunteers for, that were in a fisheries project. So I had an opportunity to explore the countryside where they were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just going to encourage them or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To encourage them, to see what the tropics, the agricultural stuff was around the area. But also it was, I got probably a little bit more social."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were sort of also in the semi staff position. I mean, clearly you just weren't a volunteer in a village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although I don't know if that was recognized in your pay."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:631", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.801456370828479, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To encourage them, to see what the tropics, the agricultural stuff was around the area. But also it was, I got probably a little bit more social."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were sort of also in the semi staff position. I mean, clearly you just weren't a volunteer in a village."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although I don't know if that was recognized in your pay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or status. OK."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:633", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.779395967587199, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although I don't know if that was recognized in your pay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or status. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was your plan then, as the end of the service, what were you going to do next?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:635", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.865995519541332, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or status. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Which was fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was your plan then, as the end of the service, what were you going to do next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had no idea."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone from Peace Corps approach you and ask if you were interested in a staff position?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:645", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.389313145931908, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I could, I mean, you met my regional supervisor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, Dwight Walker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, um, he had moved off of this, off the coast by the middle of my third year because some of his responsibilities had changed. And he was also very interested in his now wife. So they had property up in Guatemala City. That's where they were. Anyway, so I think he would have encouraged me, but I don't recall looking at that in particular. I actually ran into a group of folks from California. Cal Poly had a USAID grant for some extension work in Guatemala. And they had a cadre of their professors working with some extension agents in things like strawberry development, things like that, and some other community activities.\n\nI met some of those folks and one of those guys, Bob McCullough, saw the things that we're doing and he actually came down to our site, the demonstration plot site in La Maquina, and was there for an event and saw some of the things that we were doing. And then I went with him out to Barrios, to another volunteer site, and we looked at the potential for other fruit development projects out there. He saw what I was doing and some of the things that happened, and he was the one who said, maybe you should look at being an ag teacher when you get back. By the way, the head of agricultural education for the state of California is going to be in town, is going to be visiting at my house next week. You come and visit. And at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was in Guatemala?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:649", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.91273227892828, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, um, he had moved off of this, off the coast by the middle of my third year because some of his responsibilities had changed. And he was also very interested in his now wife. So they had property up in Guatemala City. That's where they were. Anyway, so I think he would have encouraged me, but I don't recall looking at that in particular. I actually ran into a group of folks from California. Cal Poly had a USAID grant for some extension work in Guatemala. And they had a cadre of their professors working with some extension agents in things like strawberry development, things like that, and some other community activities.\n\nI met some of those folks and one of those guys, Bob McCullough, saw the things that we're doing and he actually came down to our site, the demonstration plot site in La Maquina, and was there for an event and saw some of the things that we were doing. And then I went with him out to Barrios, to another volunteer site, and we looked at the potential for other fruit development projects out there. He saw what I was doing and some of the things that happened, and he was the one who said, maybe you should look at being an ag teacher when you get back. By the way, the head of agricultural education for the state of California is going to be in town, is going to be visiting at my house next week. You come and visit. And at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was in Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Guatemala. And at that time, in order to get into the teacher preparation program for ag ed, you had to have an interview with state staff. And so I had my interview in Guatemala with Don Wilson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then came back. I targeted getting back so I could be home for a friend's wedding. She was married, I came back on the 26th of August, she got married on the 29th. On the 2nd of September, I was in a teacher preparation program at UC Davis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Leading toward a master's?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:651", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.569702532142533, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Guatemala. And at that time, in order to get into the teacher preparation program for ag ed, you had to have an interview with state staff. And so I had my interview in Guatemala with Don Wilson."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then came back. I targeted getting back so I could be home for a friend's wedding. She was married, I came back on the 26th of August, she got married on the 29th. On the 2nd of September, I was in a teacher preparation program at UC Davis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Leading toward a master's?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Toward a credential."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, but not necessarily a master's."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:653", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.077447257936147, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then came back. I targeted getting back so I could be home for a friend's wedding. She was married, I came back on the 26th of August, she got married on the 29th. On the 2nd of September, I was in a teacher preparation program at UC Davis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Leading toward a master's?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Toward a credential."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, but not necessarily a master's."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not necessarily a master's. And on the 10th of September, I was student teaching in Modesto."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Things happen fast. So at that point, you, what you want to do is become an ag teacher."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:655", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.641608064373497, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Toward a credential."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, but not necessarily a master's."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not necessarily a master's. And on the 10th of September, I was student teaching in Modesto."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Things happen fast. So at that point, you, what you want to do is become an ag teacher."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that would be within the state of California."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:657", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.268453404859441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not necessarily a master's. And on the 10th of September, I was student teaching in Modesto."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Things happen fast. So at that point, you, what you want to do is become an ag teacher."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that would be within the state of California."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that mostly secondary level?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:659", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.964948227621601, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that would be within the state of California."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that mostly secondary level?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It would be, OK. And is that in fact what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:661", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.738831364024001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that mostly secondary level?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It would be, OK. And is that in fact what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, over the first two to three years after you came back, what kind of contact did you maintain with friends or people in Guatemala?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:663", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.376479293360001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It would be, OK. And is that in fact what happened?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, over the first two to three years after you came back, what kind of contact did you maintain with friends or people in Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, actually, I had several letters in that first four or five years with folks in Guatemala, with the family, Hilario and his son. Ah, which one was it? The second son is the one that went on to become a social worker. Um. Not too much other contact, except that when I went back five years later, we went right down and then I wanted to keep up some more contact but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What prompted the trip after five years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:665", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.8627547704000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh, over the first two to three years after you came back, what kind of contact did you maintain with friends or people in Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, actually, I had several letters in that first four or five years with folks in Guatemala, with the family, Hilario and his son. Ah, which one was it? The second son is the one that went on to become a social worker. Um. Not too much other contact, except that when I went back five years later, we went right down and then I wanted to keep up some more contact but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What prompted the trip after five years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I ran into this friend of mine who went in the Peace Corps same time I did, but went to Venezuela. Had been on a rafting trip with a couple of folks and they said that they wanted to travel in South America and we got to be good friends. And they had a couple of friends that here. And we put together this three week trip."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With you as the guide sort of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:669", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.89228984, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I ran into this friend of mine who went in the Peace Corps same time I did, but went to Venezuela. Had been on a rafting trip with a couple of folks and they said that they wanted to travel in South America and we got to be good friends. And they had a couple of friends that here. And we put together this three week trip."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With you as the guide sort of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I went on from there. I went down to Costa Rica to visit some folks before I came home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "People also talking about the third goal of the Peace Corps, you know, coming back and trying to help inform our community friends about the Third World or the other parts of the world."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:671", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.4358776, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I went on from there. I went down to Costa Rica to visit some folks before I came home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "People also talking about the third goal of the Peace Corps, you know, coming back and trying to help inform our community friends about the Third World or the other parts of the world."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to do much of that through the first five, six years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:675", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.710960000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you able to do much of that through the first five, six years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, I did in a lot of ways because those stories were still so ripe in my head. And I was teaching in Modesto and there were a couple of kids that were new arrivals from Mexico. And so I was speaking Spanish to those children. I also had a tough time with English because there were words that I was more familiar with in Spanish that described more what I wanted to talk about than, oh, let's go out to the farm. The idea of going out to the campo is in my mind, it means that you're getting out of town and that's what I wanted to say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So. I was invited. When they knew I was in, had been in Guatemala and I had artifacts and things, I was invited by several different ag teachers to come and talk with their kids about agriculture in Guatemala. And so I have a really pretty extensive slideshow that shows mangoes and cashews and corn planting and roofing and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's been your involvement through the years? It's now been quite a few years."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:681", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.24, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I've been, well, I got involved with the returned Peace Corps volunteers here in Sacramento when they first organized, I think around year 25."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I participated in a couple of the national conferences."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, within our organization, the Sacramento Returned, Sacramento Valley Returned Peace Corps Volunteers, I've taken on, been a part of the board of directors and I have taken on specific projects in that activity, volunteer activities within or volunteer community development activities in Sacramento area has been kind of my focus, although I have been available for talking to schools and classes and helping other people make those connections with various. Because of my background and my connections in education, if somebody wants to know something about Ghana, I can look up and find somebody who's been there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any further trips to Guatemala?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:683", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.6, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I participated in a couple of the national conferences."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I, within our organization, the Sacramento Returned, Sacramento Valley Returned Peace Corps Volunteers, I've taken on, been a part of the board of directors and I have taken on specific projects in that activity, volunteer activities within or volunteer community development activities in Sacramento area has been kind of my focus, although I have been available for talking to schools and classes and helping other people make those connections with various. Because of my background and my connections in education, if somebody wants to know something about Ghana, I can look up and find somebody who's been there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any further trips to Guatemala?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven't. I haven't been. I want to, but I'm a little afraid. I mean, it's been 30 years and the people that I, that I knew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Go back, it's worth it. Anything else you'd like to include in the interview?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:687", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I haven't. I haven't been. I want to, but I'm a little afraid. I mean, it's been 30 years and the people that I, that I knew."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Go back, it's worth it. Anything else you'd like to include in the interview?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I'll tell you, actually getting re, getting back with my colleagues from Guatemala has been exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we've had two reunions, three reunions, since we've been back. One in Colorado. One here on the West Coast. And one on the East Coast. And we'll have another one in three years up in Seattle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's the group that was, the Ghana, the Guatemala IX group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:689", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I'll tell you, actually getting re, getting back with my colleagues from Guatemala has been exciting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we've had two reunions, three reunions, since we've been back. One in Colorado. One here on the West Coast. And one on the East Coast. And we'll have another one in three years up in Seattle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's the group that was, the Ghana, the Guatemala IX group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the Guatemala nine group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. That's great."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00192:691", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so we've had two reunions, three reunions, since we've been back. One in Colorado. One here on the West Coast. And one on the East Coast. And we'll have another one in three years up in Seattle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that's the group that was, the Ghana, the Guatemala IX group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the Guatemala nine group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it has included some of the staff members."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Mm hmm."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00879:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 28.133371530769608, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We had LADEE operating and MAVEN operating and then, “Oh, we’re going to be operating SAM that day, so let’s put out a little press release that we got three mass spectrometers operating all on one day.”\\n\\n One exciting thing about MAVEN, early in the mission, was we had arrived at Mars very shortly before Comet Siding Spring [C/2013 A1] came barreling in from the outer solar system and just missed Mars. It came very close, but the coma—the gas and dust that surrounds the nucleus of the comet—came slamming into the atmosphere. The spacecraft that were orbiting Mars were being very careful to turn things off and basically be away from where they expected the action to be.\\n\\n So we were turned off, but when we turned on very shortly after the comet came by we measured ions in the atmosphere and saw all these metal ions. We saw 11 metal ions in pretty high abundance. What had happened is these very small dust particles associated with the comet had gone slamming into the atmosphere and ablated with the very high velocity of them hitting the atmosphere. If you were on Mars you’d probably see shooting stars all over the place. So we essentially were measuring the composition of a comet while we were orbiting Mars, by measuring all of these metal ions. It was really pretty exciting result."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of exciting work all happening at the same time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you become the Director of the Solar System Exploration Division?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think December 2015. I’ve been here not quite two years. Yes, this December it’ll be two years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In proposing these missions and these instruments to go on missions, there’s always a budget issue. As you mentioned, you propose and then Congress gets to decide what’s going on. Talk about that process. In your position, and also as the Director of the Solar System Exploration Division, I imagine you have more dealings with budgets and that sort of thing. Talk about the budget process, and maybe some of the successes you’ve had."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00879:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.2, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Still going, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask Rebecca if she had anything.\n\nI’ve just got one. Is there a project you really would like to do, but may never get a chance to? What’s your dream project that you really would like to work on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think now I’m in a mode of trying to help the junior scientists be successful on their projects. What I’d like to see that builds on the skills that we’ve developed at Goddard, and the instruments we’ve built would be exploring an icy moon, Enceladus or Europa, something like that. So we work away on getting ready for that, and getting the right scientist to lead that. I try and help them as much as I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you look for, that you’ll know that that’s the scientist that’s going to be able to take that project forward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Leadership, ability to motivate people and get engineers, who don’t necessarily understand the science, excited about the science. Efficiency, and I guess a vision for what might be done in these exciting exploration experiments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are those skills that you can teach someone, or is that something in their personality that helps them create that environment or others to become part of that team?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00879:88", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 8.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think now I’m in a mode of trying to help the junior scientists be successful on their projects. What I’d like to see that builds on the skills that we’ve developed at Goddard, and the instruments we’ve built would be exploring an icy moon, Enceladus or Europa, something like that. So we work away on getting ready for that, and getting the right scientist to lead that. I try and help them as much as I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you look for, that you’ll know that that’s the scientist that’s going to be able to take that project forward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Leadership, ability to motivate people and get engineers, who don’t necessarily understand the science, excited about the science. Efficiency, and I guess a vision for what might be done in these exciting exploration experiments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are those skills that you can teach someone, or is that something in their personality that helps them create that environment or others to become part of that team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s some of both. There are people that naturally have leadership talent, but then NASA, and even Goddard, has kind of their own culture. Certainly trying to help people understand the culture and how best to function in this environment is something I can—after being here since 1980—something I can help them with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you feel that the type of career that you have, is that still available for other people who are interested in doing what you love?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00879:90", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Leadership, ability to motivate people and get engineers, who don’t necessarily understand the science, excited about the science. Efficiency, and I guess a vision for what might be done in these exciting exploration experiments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are those skills that you can teach someone, or is that something in their personality that helps them create that environment or others to become part of that team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it’s some of both. There are people that naturally have leadership talent, but then NASA, and even Goddard, has kind of their own culture. Certainly trying to help people understand the culture and how best to function in this environment is something I can—after being here since 1980—something I can help them with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And do you feel that the type of career that you have, is that still available for other people who are interested in doing what you love?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think so. It gets more difficult as we go further and further out in the solar system. Mars and Venus are nice because you can get to them in a few short years. In other words, we land in 2012 on Mars and started doing science. We really started the project in 2005, so seven years later there we are. Of course, I’d started four years earlier trying to get ready for it. But in some of these outer solar system missions, it depends a little bit on what rocketry NASA decides to use for these missions. On the low-end rockets, it can take a long time. We’re looking at Enceladus missions now, for example, that would get there in the mid-’30s. If they were started this year, they would get there in the mid-’30s.\\n\\n That’s where we look for teams that have a combination of experienced people and junior people who can be mentored and move into leadership roles. When I came to Goddard, most of the principal investigators on the Galileo probe were approaching retirement age, or would retire shortly thereafter, so understanding how experience and leadership gets passed on, I think, is very important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anything else that you wanted to mention before we go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 31.294416511701453, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was in college then and of course I hadn't heard of the Peace Corps because it hadn't got started till '61. But I had been, my father was a career Army officer and all of my male relatives seem to have been in the Army or Marines or one branch of the service or the other. So I moved around a lot and I really enjoyed traveling. And when the Peace Corps started, I thought, that sounds like an interesting way to travel, and maybe I'll be able to do something that would help other people somewhere else, even though I really wasn't a qualified finish carpenter or mathematician or."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Or where were you physically in '61, say?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "University of Maryland in College Park, Maryland, outside of D.C."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Studying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My major was English, and minor was psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And you had grown up with, had you spent time overseas?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.104907235223838, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "University of Maryland in College Park, Maryland, outside of D.C."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Studying?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My major was English, and minor was psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And you had grown up with, had you spent time overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We lived in Japan when I was, right after the Second World War, from '48 to '50. We lived in Japan. And the rest of the time we'd moved around the United States. I don't know how many, I think I went to more than 12 schools in 12 years. And you know, my mother, however, was one of these people who tells her children, it's great. We're going to go to this great new place and you'll meet great new people. And everything will be interesting and fascinating, and you'll learn lots of stuff and you can always keep in touch with your friends by writing and we'll eventually be stationed at an Army post again with the same friends. And that happened. And to me, it was wonderful. There were a lot of Army wives who were very negative about the ordeal of having to pack up all your belongings time after time and get things broken and move the kids to new schools. But a lot of what you grow up with is influenced by the way your parents present it to you, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you must have developed the skill of moving into new situations and meeting people."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 31.227674705804265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My major was English, and minor was psychology."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And you had grown up with, had you spent time overseas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We lived in Japan when I was, right after the Second World War, from '48 to '50. We lived in Japan. And the rest of the time we'd moved around the United States. I don't know how many, I think I went to more than 12 schools in 12 years. And you know, my mother, however, was one of these people who tells her children, it's great. We're going to go to this great new place and you'll meet great new people. And everything will be interesting and fascinating, and you'll learn lots of stuff and you can always keep in touch with your friends by writing and we'll eventually be stationed at an Army post again with the same friends. And that happened. And to me, it was wonderful. There were a lot of Army wives who were very negative about the ordeal of having to pack up all your belongings time after time and get things broken and move the kids to new schools. But a lot of what you grow up with is influenced by the way your parents present it to you, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you must have developed the skill of moving into new situations and meeting people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you very shy or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.58630522867141, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We lived in Japan when I was, right after the Second World War, from '48 to '50. We lived in Japan. And the rest of the time we'd moved around the United States. I don't know how many, I think I went to more than 12 schools in 12 years. And you know, my mother, however, was one of these people who tells her children, it's great. We're going to go to this great new place and you'll meet great new people. And everything will be interesting and fascinating, and you'll learn lots of stuff and you can always keep in touch with your friends by writing and we'll eventually be stationed at an Army post again with the same friends. And that happened. And to me, it was wonderful. There were a lot of Army wives who were very negative about the ordeal of having to pack up all your belongings time after time and get things broken and move the kids to new schools. But a lot of what you grow up with is influenced by the way your parents present it to you, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you must have developed the skill of moving into new situations and meeting people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you very shy or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how to describe myself. No, I'd say I was fairly outgoing at first in new situations. I guess I would sit back and take stock of what was going on before I would. I do not like to stand and never have liked to stand up in front of other people and make announcements. Now I usually arrange to have somebody else do that if it needs to be done. But I am outgoing and like other people and meet people easily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, you started. You were attending University of Maryland."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 37.31811692074601, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose so, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you very shy or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how to describe myself. No, I'd say I was fairly outgoing at first in new situations. I guess I would sit back and take stock of what was going on before I would. I do not like to stand and never have liked to stand up in front of other people and make announcements. Now I usually arrange to have somebody else do that if it needs to be done. But I am outgoing and like other people and meet people easily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, you started. You were attending University of Maryland."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you at the same school for the four years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 34.79790768971778, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know how to describe myself. No, I'd say I was fairly outgoing at first in new situations. I guess I would sit back and take stock of what was going on before I would. I do not like to stand and never have liked to stand up in front of other people and make announcements. Now I usually arrange to have somebody else do that if it needs to be done. But I am outgoing and like other people and meet people easily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went, you started. You were attending University of Maryland."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you at the same school for the four years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I went to Mary Washington University. Mary Washington College at the University of Virginia in Fredericksburg for the first year. And at that time it was very First Family of Virginia oriented, and I hated it and couldn't wait to get out. And at the University of Maryland, it was a big university and nobody cared whether I was First Family of Virginia or whether I failed or passed, and it was just fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you were living at the university, I mean, you were resident in the university area."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 35.33100854413087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you at the same school for the four years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I went to Mary Washington University. Mary Washington College at the University of Virginia in Fredericksburg for the first year. And at that time it was very First Family of Virginia oriented, and I hated it and couldn't wait to get out. And at the University of Maryland, it was a big university and nobody cared whether I was First Family of Virginia or whether I failed or passed, and it was just fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you were living at the university, I mean, you were resident in the university area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived at. For the first two years of college, I lived in the dorms, and after that I lived with my grandparents in Washington, D.C., and commuted to finish the last two years of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During high school, extracurricular activities? Do you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 29.256676160145403, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I went to Mary Washington University. Mary Washington College at the University of Virginia in Fredericksburg for the first year. And at that time it was very First Family of Virginia oriented, and I hated it and couldn't wait to get out. And at the University of Maryland, it was a big university and nobody cared whether I was First Family of Virginia or whether I failed or passed, and it was just fine with me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you were living at the university, I mean, you were resident in the university area."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived at. For the first two years of college, I lived in the dorms, and after that I lived with my grandparents in Washington, D.C., and commuted to finish the last two years of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During high school, extracurricular activities? Do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of church-oriented things. In high school, I was fortunate enough to spend the last three years of high school in one place, and it was a place that had a lot of activities for young kids in Fort Monroe, Virginia, near Hampton and Norfolk, Newport News. And I was very active in church related things and in the teen club and Girl Scouts. And one or two things the last year in high school at school, like Future Voters of America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any vacation travel outside the country?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 28.06297351127267, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I lived at. For the first two years of college, I lived in the dorms, and after that I lived with my grandparents in Washington, D.C., and commuted to finish the last two years of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During high school, extracurricular activities? Do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of church-oriented things. In high school, I was fortunate enough to spend the last three years of high school in one place, and it was a place that had a lot of activities for young kids in Fort Monroe, Virginia, near Hampton and Norfolk, Newport News. And I was very active in church related things and in the teen club and Girl Scouts. And one or two things the last year in high school at school, like Future Voters of America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any vacation travel outside the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we didn't do that in those days, flights. We didn't just hop on a plane. And actually my very first airplane flight was as a Peace Corps trainee going up to New York for orientation. But we didn't, my folks didn't vacation a whole lot. I mean, the only vacations they took were to visit family. So we did drive down to Tennessee to see my father's folks, or up to Washington to see my mother's folks. But we didn't have vacations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the three years then at Maryland, did you study foreign language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.514415012525188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of church-oriented things. In high school, I was fortunate enough to spend the last three years of high school in one place, and it was a place that had a lot of activities for young kids in Fort Monroe, Virginia, near Hampton and Norfolk, Newport News. And I was very active in church related things and in the teen club and Girl Scouts. And one or two things the last year in high school at school, like Future Voters of America."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Any vacation travel outside the country?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we didn't do that in those days, flights. We didn't just hop on a plane. And actually my very first airplane flight was as a Peace Corps trainee going up to New York for orientation. But we didn't, my folks didn't vacation a whole lot. I mean, the only vacations they took were to visit family. So we did drive down to Tennessee to see my father's folks, or up to Washington to see my mother's folks. But we didn't have vacations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the three years then at Maryland, did you study foreign language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I had well, actually, I'd had three years in high school of French, and then I took French first year at Mary Washington and did so terribly poor in it, poorly in it. So I decided, well, if I have to start over again, why don't I start over in Spanish? So I started with Spanish and I took two and a half years, a half year more than I had to, in Spanish at the University of Maryland. I really enjoy languages and always have even though I've never been really outstanding in them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Was it a cultural thing, I mean, or was it just the fascination of knowing another language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 27.238238902805765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we didn't do that in those days, flights. We didn't just hop on a plane. And actually my very first airplane flight was as a Peace Corps trainee going up to New York for orientation. But we didn't, my folks didn't vacation a whole lot. I mean, the only vacations they took were to visit family. So we did drive down to Tennessee to see my father's folks, or up to Washington to see my mother's folks. But we didn't have vacations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the three years then at Maryland, did you study foreign language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I had well, actually, I'd had three years in high school of French, and then I took French first year at Mary Washington and did so terribly poor in it, poorly in it. So I decided, well, if I have to start over again, why don't I start over in Spanish? So I started with Spanish and I took two and a half years, a half year more than I had to, in Spanish at the University of Maryland. I really enjoy languages and always have even though I've never been really outstanding in them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Was it a cultural thing, I mean, or was it just the fascination of knowing another language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I don't know. It's just, maybe just another language, as languages have always interested me. But now it's my fascination with languages, getting to know the culture as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. As you, well, '61, '62. Do you recall any awareness of politics of Kennedy becoming president and of the Peace Corps itself getting going?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 17.255263211628098, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I had, before I graduated, I applied. I had applied to the officer's training school for the Air Force at my father's suggestion, and I had also applied to the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hedging your bets."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I really wasn't very interested in going into the military."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was very interested in this new Kennedy program of traveling overseas. I didn't know what they required. I didn't know if you had to be a specialist or be smarter than I was or more knowledgeable in some field, but it sounded very interesting from the little I'd heard about it. And of course, by that time, people hadn't come back. So it was hard to know, hear from somebody who had been overseas. I qualified for OCS and then I dropped that much to my father's dismay, and really was interested in going into the Peace Corps. I finally was accepted in the Peace Corps after a very long process during which they went back to every place I'd ever lived, I think, and talked to everybody I'd ever known and my parents had ever known."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In those days, there was an entrance exam. There was a lengthy questionnaire application, and there were also six letters of recommendation and background. So they did the background checking."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.796621248923573, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was very interested in this new Kennedy program of traveling overseas. I didn't know what they required. I didn't know if you had to be a specialist or be smarter than I was or more knowledgeable in some field, but it sounded very interesting from the little I'd heard about it. And of course, by that time, people hadn't come back. So it was hard to know, hear from somebody who had been overseas. I qualified for OCS and then I dropped that much to my father's dismay, and really was interested in going into the Peace Corps. I finally was accepted in the Peace Corps after a very long process during which they went back to every place I'd ever lived, I think, and talked to everybody I'd ever known and my parents had ever known."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In those days, there was an entrance exam. There was a lengthy questionnaire application, and there were also six letters of recommendation and background. So they did the background checking."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they did. As a matter of fact, I had other friends who were applying to work in Peace Corps Washington or applying to work in the Peace Corps, and they ended up interviewing them and their families about me, and me and my family about them. Separate people. But they offered me a position. This is the way it worked in those days. They offered me a position as a trainee in the Philippines, which was not where I had wanted to go. I had wanted to go in the Inca area of South America, the Peruvian Andes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just a fascination with the native peoples. I had become interested at camp, at the camp I taught, in Indian lore and in the American Indians and in the South American Indians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh OK. And how did your family react to your moving more toward the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.996245832137303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, they did. As a matter of fact, I had other friends who were applying to work in Peace Corps Washington or applying to work in the Peace Corps, and they ended up interviewing them and their families about me, and me and my family about them. Separate people. But they offered me a position. This is the way it worked in those days. They offered me a position as a trainee in the Philippines, which was not where I had wanted to go. I had wanted to go in the Inca area of South America, the Peruvian Andes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just a fascination with the native peoples. I had become interested at camp, at the camp I taught, in Indian lore and in the American Indians and in the South American Indians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh OK. And how did your family react to your moving more toward the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think my father felt well as long as it's a job, and my mother was behind me 100 percent. She didn't know what Peace Corps was, but she had confidence in my ability to make a decision and to do what I felt was the right thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your siblings, older, younger?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 9.99582870237478, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just a fascination with the native peoples. I had become interested at camp, at the camp I taught, in Indian lore and in the American Indians and in the South American Indians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh OK. And how did your family react to your moving more toward the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think my father felt well as long as it's a job, and my mother was behind me 100 percent. She didn't know what Peace Corps was, but she had confidence in my ability to make a decision and to do what I felt was the right thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your siblings, older, younger?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have younger brothers. And there was one two years younger who was in West Point at the time. And I think he didn't think much about my decisions. And then the other brothers were 12 and 14, 15 years younger than I. So they were very small. So when they accepted me. They didn't accept me, but they accepted me as an applicant for the Philippines program. And I said, OK. It sounded interesting, and my mother had been born in the Philippines, as an army brat. So she had some of her friends check out the current situations in the Philippines, which was better then than now. And they said, well, it could be very tough, could be hard living, but I knew that it was not going to be luxurious living no matter where I went."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember if it was a program to be a teacher aide?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.224730730280903, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. I think so. And then they decided, Peace Corps decided, that they had too many volunteers in the Philippines, that they were flooding that country, so they canceled the whole program. So I wondered what was going to happen to me. And this was about the time that I was graduating with no job. And then, so I, instead of getting the job, I was going to spend the summer waiting to hear from the Peace Corps and doing some hiking and seeing friends and things like that. So I waited and then finally, after several very long months, they offered me a job in Colombia, which again was one of the first countries they went into in 1961, right as an urban Peace Corps volunteer. And I turned them down. I said, I don't want to be urban. I want to be rural. I have no interest in going to a city. I guess I was getting a little too big for my britches here. But they said, OK, well. They made it clear that it was acceptable to do that, and that didn't mean that I was out of their consideration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Did you do you remember taking a language exam as part of the application process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We're reaching way far back now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, as far as you can remember."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think I was given one unless it was, I think maybe there was a written language exam. It wouldn't have been an oral one, but there may have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well did you feel you were at all qualified in Spanish?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.916367478089891, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We're reaching way far back now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, as far as you can remember."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think I was given one unless it was, I think maybe there was a written language exam. It wouldn't have been an oral one, but there may have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well did you feel you were at all qualified in Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I was not. I had never had a course in Spanish conversation, so I had never had conversations with anybody. But I had book learning for five semesters, you know, four of language and then a fifth semester of poetry and literature."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So but your interest was in Spanish speaking Latin America, personally?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.684852753433212, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think I was given one unless it was, I think maybe there was a written language exam. It wouldn't have been an oral one, but there may have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well did you feel you were at all qualified in Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I was not. I had never had a course in Spanish conversation, so I had never had conversations with anybody. But I had book learning for five semesters, you know, four of language and then a fifth semester of poetry and literature."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So but your interest was in Spanish speaking Latin America, personally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a rural, preferring a rural not an urban assignment. So you said no to Colombia."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.538725281592457, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I was not. I had never had a course in Spanish conversation, so I had never had conversations with anybody. But I had book learning for five semesters, you know, four of language and then a fifth semester of poetry and literature."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. So but your interest was in Spanish speaking Latin America, personally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a rural, preferring a rural not an urban assignment. So you said no to Colombia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then one of my friends who was in the D.C. area, who was applying to work at Peace Corps Washington, was interviewed about my background, because they had known me since I was a baby. She and her father and her mother. And they mentioned something about rural versus urban, and the interviewer told her that I was going to be offered very soon a position I definitely would take. And she relayed that to me. I thought, well that's interesting. Why don't they tell me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, it's so personal too I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.48747253510273, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a rural, preferring a rural not an urban assignment. So you said no to Colombia."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then one of my friends who was in the D.C. area, who was applying to work at Peace Corps Washington, was interviewed about my background, because they had known me since I was a baby. She and her father and her mother. And they mentioned something about rural versus urban, and the interviewer told her that I was going to be offered very soon a position I definitely would take. And she relayed that to me. I thought, well that's interesting. Why don't they tell me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, it's so personal too I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So they did offer me the position in rural Ecuador in community development. So I said yes. And by then, I was really hoping that I was going to get something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And when was this, October, November?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.319413927891922, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then one of my friends who was in the D.C. area, who was applying to work at Peace Corps Washington, was interviewed about my background, because they had known me since I was a baby. She and her father and her mother. And they mentioned something about rural versus urban, and the interviewer told her that I was going to be offered very soon a position I definitely would take. And she relayed that to me. I thought, well that's interesting. Why don't they tell me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, it's so personal too I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So they did offer me the position in rural Ecuador in community development. So I said yes. And by then, I was really hoping that I was going to get something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And when was this, October, November?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was probably September or August. It seemed like forever when you're waiting for the job to come through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you hadn't considered chucking it and doing something else? You were would just sort of holding out for the."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.243793253213246, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So they did offer me the position in rural Ecuador in community development. So I said yes. And by then, I was really hoping that I was going to get something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. And when was this, October, November?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was probably September or August. It seemed like forever when you're waiting for the job to come through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you hadn't considered chucking it and doing something else? You were would just sort of holding out for the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was holding out for it because the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like something that would be, that I would like. I thought, well, maybe I'll have to go back and get teaching credentials and teach or something. But even though I majored in English, I had no intention of teaching. I enjoyed the literature. I liked languages. The basic study of English helped a little bit with other languages. And I really didn't want to be a teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you hadn't thought of applying to graduate school or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.270881392459161, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was probably September or August. It seemed like forever when you're waiting for the job to come through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you hadn't considered chucking it and doing something else? You were would just sort of holding out for the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was holding out for it because the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like something that would be, that I would like. I thought, well, maybe I'll have to go back and get teaching credentials and teach or something. But even though I majored in English, I had no intention of teaching. I enjoyed the literature. I liked languages. The basic study of English helped a little bit with other languages. And I really didn't want to be a teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you hadn't thought of applying to graduate school or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn't have known what I would study in. Advice from another friend was don't ever go to graduate school in the same thing you went to undergraduate school in. But no, I think I'd had enough of college for a while, enough of studies for a while, and I wanted to get out in the real world and do something. And international travel had been a fascination ever since I lived in Japan and had not done very much. We had been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How old were you when you lived in Japan?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.300979324954623, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was holding out for it because the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like something that would be, that I would like. I thought, well, maybe I'll have to go back and get teaching credentials and teach or something. But even though I majored in English, I had no intention of teaching. I enjoyed the literature. I liked languages. The basic study of English helped a little bit with other languages. And I really didn't want to be a teacher."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you hadn't thought of applying to graduate school or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn't have known what I would study in. Advice from another friend was don't ever go to graduate school in the same thing you went to undergraduate school in. But no, I think I'd had enough of college for a while, enough of studies for a while, and I wanted to get out in the real world and do something. And international travel had been a fascination ever since I lived in Japan and had not done very much. We had been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How old were you when you lived in Japan?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seven, eight and nine. In the trail club, we got as far as Quebec. And we, I mean, it was French speaking. So we had experiences with another language there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. The invitation finally comes. And what was the invitation to? I mean, Ecuador."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.445532583282914, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn't have known what I would study in. Advice from another friend was don't ever go to graduate school in the same thing you went to undergraduate school in. But no, I think I'd had enough of college for a while, enough of studies for a while, and I wanted to get out in the real world and do something. And international travel had been a fascination ever since I lived in Japan and had not done very much. We had been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How old were you when you lived in Japan?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seven, eight and nine. In the trail club, we got as far as Quebec. And we, I mean, it was French speaking. So we had experiences with another language there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. The invitation finally comes. And what was the invitation to? I mean, Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ecuador. Rural community action. And I didn't know what community action was. And frankly, the Peace Corps didn't know what community action was in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Then you're told to report to training. Am I right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.606147314758793, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seven, eight and nine. In the trail club, we got as far as Quebec. And we, I mean, it was French speaking. So we had experiences with another language there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. The invitation finally comes. And what was the invitation to? I mean, Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ecuador. Rural community action. And I didn't know what community action was. And frankly, the Peace Corps didn't know what community action was in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Then you're told to report to training. Am I right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was told that I would be sent tickets and I would be sent tickets to New York City, where we would all be gathered together for orientation into what is the Peace Corps and what you're getting into. In retrospect, it seems to me that this is a very good idea because you can weed out people at that stage and not cost the Peace Corps quite so much if they realize that they're going to go to a country that doesn't speak English. Perhaps they didn't realize that before. But nobody quit then. We were 56 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you go? Where did you stay?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.895719238620881, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ecuador. Rural community action. And I didn't know what community action was. And frankly, the Peace Corps didn't know what community action was in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Then you're told to report to training. Am I right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was told that I would be sent tickets and I would be sent tickets to New York City, where we would all be gathered together for orientation into what is the Peace Corps and what you're getting into. In retrospect, it seems to me that this is a very good idea because you can weed out people at that stage and not cost the Peace Corps quite so much if they realize that they're going to go to a country that doesn't speak English. Perhaps they didn't realize that before. But nobody quit then. We were 56 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you go? Where did you stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In a hotel in New York City. I don't know the name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the meetings were at the hotel?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.328576931800978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was told that I would be sent tickets and I would be sent tickets to New York City, where we would all be gathered together for orientation into what is the Peace Corps and what you're getting into. In retrospect, it seems to me that this is a very good idea because you can weed out people at that stage and not cost the Peace Corps quite so much if they realize that they're going to go to a country that doesn't speak English. Perhaps they didn't realize that before. But nobody quit then. We were 56 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you go? Where did you stay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In a hotel in New York City. I don't know the name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the meetings were at the hotel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was the entire group for Ecuador?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.698418813112196, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In a hotel in New York City. I don't know the name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the meetings were at the hotel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was the entire group for Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes.\n\nBoth urban and rural Ecuador, some of us. And they said the lines weren't very clearly drawn. They might move some urban people into rural and vice versa. Which was a problem later when we began to plan our clothes to go overseas. Because the urban people in Guayaquil, where it's 90 degrees and 100 percent humidity all the time, had brought clothes for the Andes, which didn't work out, but anyway. It was urban and rural, and they said that you might be changed. I had a pretty good idea that I wouldn't be changed because I had made such a big point about being rural."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the male female break in the group, do you remember particularly?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.22046534790244, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And was the entire group for Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes.\n\nBoth urban and rural Ecuador, some of us. And they said the lines weren't very clearly drawn. They might move some urban people into rural and vice versa. Which was a problem later when we began to plan our clothes to go overseas. Because the urban people in Guayaquil, where it's 90 degrees and 100 percent humidity all the time, had brought clothes for the Andes, which didn't work out, but anyway. It was urban and rural, and they said that you might be changed. I had a pretty good idea that I wouldn't be changed because I had made such a big point about being rural."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the male female break in the group, do you remember particularly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't. There were quite a lot of both. I think we were 56 people or 65 people. I think probably 56."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the most part in early to mid-twenties?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.689405942113822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes.\n\nBoth urban and rural Ecuador, some of us. And they said the lines weren't very clearly drawn. They might move some urban people into rural and vice versa. Which was a problem later when we began to plan our clothes to go overseas. Because the urban people in Guayaquil, where it's 90 degrees and 100 percent humidity all the time, had brought clothes for the Andes, which didn't work out, but anyway. It was urban and rural, and they said that you might be changed. I had a pretty good idea that I wouldn't be changed because I had made such a big point about being rural."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the male female break in the group, do you remember particularly?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't. There were quite a lot of both. I think we were 56 people or 65 people. I think probably 56."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the most part in early to mid-twenties?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There was one girl who had not finished college. She was 20. There were several, including my first husband, my current husband, who is, um, who had finished graduate school. But I don't think anybody was older than 25."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Were there married couples in the group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.321562157904246, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't. There were quite a lot of both. I think we were 56 people or 65 people. I think probably 56."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the most part in early to mid-twenties?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There was one girl who had not finished college. She was 20. There were several, including my first husband, my current husband, who is, um, who had finished graduate school. But I don't think anybody was older than 25."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Were there married couples in the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were six married couples who started training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So how long were you in New York?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.458718713462028, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, there were six married couples who started training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So how long were you in New York?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just three days and this happened to be. We were convened there November 23rd, 1963."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And while we were on a break, we were walking around the streets and people had the strangest. People you'd never talked to in New York, where people don't talk to strangers, would say the president's been shot and newsstand people would just throw up their hands. People were crying on the streets. And we. I went back to the hotel room, not knowing, not believing it. Not knowing what to do. I went back to the hotel room and everybody, this was a suite with three bedrooms and six people in it, and everybody was gathered around the television, watching the news and watching what was happening. Um, one girl with a very tall beehive hairdo that we thought she will never maintain this hairdo throughout the whole term - and she did - was weeping and she cried. She cried for hours and the rest of us were just staring at each other wondering what to do. We didn't know each other. We had no, we had just met. It was very strange. And the question came up, would they cancel the Peace Corps? Would they cancel our project? Were we going home tomorrow?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, interesting. Did you did you call home, do you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.843020792735587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Just three days and this happened to be. We were convened there November 23rd, 1963."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And while we were on a break, we were walking around the streets and people had the strangest. People you'd never talked to in New York, where people don't talk to strangers, would say the president's been shot and newsstand people would just throw up their hands. People were crying on the streets. And we. I went back to the hotel room, not knowing, not believing it. Not knowing what to do. I went back to the hotel room and everybody, this was a suite with three bedrooms and six people in it, and everybody was gathered around the television, watching the news and watching what was happening. Um, one girl with a very tall beehive hairdo that we thought she will never maintain this hairdo throughout the whole term - and she did - was weeping and she cried. She cried for hours and the rest of us were just staring at each other wondering what to do. We didn't know each other. We had no, we had just met. It was very strange. And the question came up, would they cancel the Peace Corps? Would they cancel our project? Were we going home tomorrow?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, interesting. Did you did you call home, do you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. In those days, we didn't call home a lot. Even 10, 15 years ago, we didn't call a lot. They had the same news we had. I would have had to call if I wasn't going to go overseas. We were getting ready to go to Puerto Rico, and two days later, we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the day or the day after, before you went to Puerto Rico, was there an official Peace Corps spokesman? There must have been someone who was calling the shots or directing what you were doing."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.381134214150652, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And while we were on a break, we were walking around the streets and people had the strangest. People you'd never talked to in New York, where people don't talk to strangers, would say the president's been shot and newsstand people would just throw up their hands. People were crying on the streets. And we. I went back to the hotel room, not knowing, not believing it. Not knowing what to do. I went back to the hotel room and everybody, this was a suite with three bedrooms and six people in it, and everybody was gathered around the television, watching the news and watching what was happening. Um, one girl with a very tall beehive hairdo that we thought she will never maintain this hairdo throughout the whole term - and she did - was weeping and she cried. She cried for hours and the rest of us were just staring at each other wondering what to do. We didn't know each other. We had no, we had just met. It was very strange. And the question came up, would they cancel the Peace Corps? Would they cancel our project? Were we going home tomorrow?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, interesting. Did you did you call home, do you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. In those days, we didn't call home a lot. Even 10, 15 years ago, we didn't call a lot. They had the same news we had. I would have had to call if I wasn't going to go overseas. We were getting ready to go to Puerto Rico, and two days later, we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the day or the day after, before you went to Puerto Rico, was there an official Peace Corps spokesman? There must have been someone who was calling the shots or directing what you were doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they deal with Kennedy's death or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.979038015722946, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. In those days, we didn't call home a lot. Even 10, 15 years ago, we didn't call a lot. They had the same news we had. I would have had to call if I wasn't going to go overseas. We were getting ready to go to Puerto Rico, and two days later, we did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "During the day or the day after, before you went to Puerto Rico, was there an official Peace Corps spokesman? There must have been someone who was calling the shots or directing what you were doing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they deal with Kennedy's death or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah. They said, we will be going ahead. The Peace Corps is not canceled. And they just told us what you would get on the news that, you know, there would be an official 30 day period of mourning and something about the burial, the funeral, and that we would be going to Puerto Rico as planned. And um, that was pretty much it, I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, what was the purpose of going to Puerto Rico?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.643375573025494, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they deal with Kennedy's death or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yeah. They said, we will be going ahead. The Peace Corps is not canceled. And they just told us what you would get on the news that, you know, there would be an official 30 day period of mourning and something about the burial, the funeral, and that we would be going to Puerto Rico as planned. And um, that was pretty much it, I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, what was the purpose of going to Puerto Rico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Training. Not because it was where we were going was going to be hot, but what they did in those days. I don't know if the first groups went through this for Ghana, but we had Outward Bound training. And I guess I don't have the time to go into what Outward Bound training is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's OK. Yeah, I think it's."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 14.31190064886899, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody understands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to Camp Crozier. There were two camps in the mountains, Radley and Crozier, in the mountains near Arecibo. And we had. They were set up sort of like army barracks. There were several cabins which held about 12 people and they had screens on them, which usually worked. But we had lots of bugs come in too. And it was in a rainforest. So there were lots of bugs. It was always wet. When you got into your bed at night, it was damp. The sheets were damp. We got up and we did calisthenics. We had to run a mile before breakfast. We had serious physical training and even more so emotional and mental training, as well as five hours a day of Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the beginning. And then the training went on for a total of four months and we had five hours a day of Spanish, every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of this in Puerto Rico."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.457667387632211, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We went to Camp Crozier. There were two camps in the mountains, Radley and Crozier, in the mountains near Arecibo. And we had. They were set up sort of like army barracks. There were several cabins which held about 12 people and they had screens on them, which usually worked. But we had lots of bugs come in too. And it was in a rainforest. So there were lots of bugs. It was always wet. When you got into your bed at night, it was damp. The sheets were damp. We got up and we did calisthenics. We had to run a mile before breakfast. We had serious physical training and even more so emotional and mental training, as well as five hours a day of Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the beginning. And then the training went on for a total of four months and we had five hours a day of Spanish, every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of this in Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. This is just the beginning. We had one month in Puerto Rico, three weeks in Outward Bound, and then we were put for one week in a community with two or three other Peace Corps trainees where they were doing construction. And we were supposed to help with the construction, which we had no training in. But maybe it was for language skills. I don't really know why they did this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live with the family at that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.730741541813568, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the beginning. And then the training went on for a total of four months and we had five hours a day of Spanish, every day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All of this in Puerto Rico."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. This is just the beginning. We had one month in Puerto Rico, three weeks in Outward Bound, and then we were put for one week in a community with two or three other Peace Corps trainees where they were doing construction. And we were supposed to help with the construction, which we had no training in. But maybe it was for language skills. I don't really know why they did this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you live with the family at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That may have been the language training. While you were in Puerto Rico with the Outward Bound training, was there a sense and with the intensive language training, was it a sense that you were being evaluated? You would have to pass some kind of standard on each of those before you would move on?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.49474264421428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That may have been the language training. While you were in Puerto Rico with the Outward Bound training, was there a sense and with the intensive language training, was it a sense that you were being evaluated? You would have to pass some kind of standard on each of those before you would move on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "My understanding at the time was that this was for training purposes and that I understood some of these people were very overweight. Some of these people had never, they didn't know how to swim, couldn't swim at all. There's no way the Peace Corps was going to kick people out if they couldn't manage to climb up a rope 30 feet. And the women, you know, we're not as strong as the guys. So a woman who had never done this before couldn't climb straight up a rope 30 feet. Why would the Peace Corps kick her out? I thought that this was training and just getting you to, I don't know, to understand your limits and to understand how to deal with situations you never been in before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a part of it was rock climbing, which, as it happens, I had done before. But most of the people, 99.44% percent of the people had never done before, and I couldn't imagine Peace Corps d selecting somebody because they couldn't climb the rocks. Deselecting is a word they used in those days and to any of us from that period that went through the selections that we went through, it is extremely negative. We had so many things, not so much in Puerto Rico, but afterwards in the university training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well during the physical training and the language, the initial language in Puerto Rico, did many people choose to drop out or do you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.002351233370339, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And so they felt very united as a group. They'd finished a lot of their selections. They were smaller group, like maybe 35, and they were mixed in with us. So our classes, our groups were composed of part Ecuador VI and part really nuevo people, Ecuador VII. And it was very interesting to see the difference. At the very end of training, if I can skip a few, at the very end of the Outward Bound training, they had a race. There was a race up a mountain. Well, it would be a hill compared to the Andes, but it was pretty steep. And the object was to get the entire group, your group, to the top of the hill and back down. The object was not to see an individual basis how fast you could run up and run down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even though this was thoroughly and adequately explained, the majority of jocks, women as well as men, raced up that hill and down and thought, I'm going to do the best I can for my team by doing this. But Group B, we had had a pretty good experience, at least in my opinion. And we had some heavy-set people and some frail little people, and we pushed them up the hill and pulled them up the hill. And we worked as a group and we won. We won a case of Lowenbrau. And I was very proud of the group at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is one of the points of Outward Bound, of course, is team building and, you know, learning to work with others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I hadn't known that that was one of the points, but that was what we did. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Puerto Rico and coming to the, it was a four-week period."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.335945814855933, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Even though this was thoroughly and adequately explained, the majority of jocks, women as well as men, raced up that hill and down and thought, I'm going to do the best I can for my team by doing this. But Group B, we had had a pretty good experience, at least in my opinion. And we had some heavy-set people and some frail little people, and we pushed them up the hill and pulled them up the hill. And we worked as a group and we won. We won a case of Lowenbrau. And I was very proud of the group at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is one of the points of Outward Bound, of course, is team building and, you know, learning to work with others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I hadn't known that that was one of the points, but that was what we did. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Puerto Rico and coming to the, it was a four-week period."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It was three weeks at Outward Bound and then the one in the community."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And in the community, you would just in a small town with some others?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.817717572062147, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I hadn't known that that was one of the points, but that was what we did. [tape break]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Puerto Rico and coming to the, it was a four-week period."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. It was three weeks at Outward Bound and then the one in the community."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And in the community, you would just in a small town with some others?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the main purpose was probably language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 13.725577249459441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the main purpose was probably language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably, although some of us would possibly be involved in construction later on. One of the, I was in a community that had one other single woman volunteer trainee and a married couple. And Pat Roy, the married couple wife, realized early that she would not be doing physical construction and shoveling cement into cement mixers when she was a volunteer in her site. Because women don't do that in Latin America, or at least they didn't then. And so she started making friends with the children and talking to people, and I thought that was very smart of her."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All of our Spanish was fairly rudimentary. I mean, we had book learning. I had had five semesters in college, and then five hours a day for three weeks. And then we had. What I remember most, I think, was meeting this little seven or eight or nine year old kid and letting him win at marbles. He was very outgoing and wanted to talk to this strange woman who had come to live with an older couple in their house and work with cement. And so we played marbles and I made sure that he won. And he, on the last day there. We tried to have many conversations, but my Spanish vocabulary wasn't really great. The last day there, he walked me down to where we had to stand alongside the highway and wave the bus down and catch the bus back into to San Juan. And he escorted me there and carried my little suitcase. And I said, don't you have to be in school? He said, well, there's this play and I'm the emcee in the play. And they can't. I said, aren't you going to miss this play? He said, they can't do it without me. They just have to wait. And he's probably the mayor of the town that at this point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So then back to San Juan. Your group reformed, the Ecuador VII group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.969241768805817, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Well, there were two sets. Both groups were there. And I don't know whether Ecuador VI went straight on to, uh, Ecuador at that point, or they probably in all likelihood had to go back to Miami and then go back. Well, it was just before Christmas. It was about two or three days before Christmas. So the Peace Corps decided in view of the fact that it was just before Christmas that they were going to let us take our home leave, our post training leave that we would normally get after all the training, they would let us do it at Christmas instead, which would mean we wouldn't get it later. And so we went home for a week or two weeks, probably one week. And then we were told to report to Denver and they gave us the tickets. So after Christmas, we all flew out to Denver."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Going home, how'd the family greet you now that you were a Peace Corps volunteer and climbed tall mountains and leaped tall buildings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don't. I don't remember. I don't think it was as big a deal for them as for me because they hadn't been there with me. And although they'd heard about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you writing during the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I'm sure I was. I've always been a writer, writing home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know if the letters exist?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.299157520895353, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don't. I don't remember. I don't think it was as big a deal for them as for me because they hadn't been there with me. And although they'd heard about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you writing during the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I'm sure I was. I've always been a writer, writing home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know if the letters exist?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I'm sure they don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you had the week home. Any second thoughts about maybe you shouldn't be going?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.369330272710311, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I'm sure they don't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you had the week home. Any second thoughts about maybe you shouldn't be going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, none at all. Absolutely not. One of the reasons that I thought about going into the Peace Corps was a friend of mine, but actually he was the son of friends of my parents. He had worked in Indonesia, and I don't know with what program, whether it was a church program or the government program, and he was working in agriculture. I'm not sure it was Indonesia. It was Southeast Asia. It may have been Vietnam before the war. It was sometime before this period at any rate, and he was quite a bit older than I. Well, ten years at that period, it was quite a bit older. And he had been working with people in the fields and there had been an accident with the tractor and he lost his leg. And he was sent back to the United States and he was put in hospitals for a while. First thing he did when he got out of the hospital was go right back to his job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was not. I don't know that. He wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer. I don't know what kind of living conditions he had, but I have to assume that it was fairly basic. And his work with the people there made me think that he was a very giving person. A person who is really giving a good impression of what some of us in America are like, you know, or would like to be like. And I thought that was sort of an inspiration for me to try to get into the Peace Corps and do something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember reading a book called The Ugly American?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.521478080789235, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, none at all. Absolutely not. One of the reasons that I thought about going into the Peace Corps was a friend of mine, but actually he was the son of friends of my parents. He had worked in Indonesia, and I don't know with what program, whether it was a church program or the government program, and he was working in agriculture. I'm not sure it was Indonesia. It was Southeast Asia. It may have been Vietnam before the war. It was sometime before this period at any rate, and he was quite a bit older than I. Well, ten years at that period, it was quite a bit older. And he had been working with people in the fields and there had been an accident with the tractor and he lost his leg. And he was sent back to the United States and he was put in hospitals for a while. First thing he did when he got out of the hospital was go right back to his job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was not. I don't know that. He wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer. I don't know what kind of living conditions he had, but I have to assume that it was fairly basic. And his work with the people there made me think that he was a very giving person. A person who is really giving a good impression of what some of us in America are like, you know, or would like to be like. And I thought that was sort of an inspiration for me to try to get into the Peace Corps and do something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember reading a book called The Ugly American?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That was part of that same mix of value forming about the role Americans could play, didn't play, but could play, sort of."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.468308978654704, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he was not. I don't know that. He wasn't a Peace Corps volunteer. I don't know what kind of living conditions he had, but I have to assume that it was fairly basic. And his work with the people there made me think that he was a very giving person. A person who is really giving a good impression of what some of us in America are like, you know, or would like to be like. And I thought that was sort of an inspiration for me to try to get into the Peace Corps and do something like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember reading a book called The Ugly American?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That was part of that same mix of value forming about the role Americans could play, didn't play, but could play, sort of."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And speaking of books about Americans' roles overseas, I again have to mention this book Green Fires by Marnie Mueller, about a Peace Corps volunteer who returns to Ecuador, returns to her country of service, and finds out that she had done the wrong things for the right reasons. But there's all this cultural interplay and history. We, as Americans, we get to a new place and we think we're the first people there. Well, in fact, these people have been there for centuries and they have histories of interaction. And if we jump in the middle of it. We're not the first people there. We're just the latest in a series of things that's causing actions and reactions. And sometimes we don't interpret everything correctly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you flew out to Denver for the second part of your training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.520343309616338, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. That was part of that same mix of value forming about the role Americans could play, didn't play, but could play, sort of."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And speaking of books about Americans' roles overseas, I again have to mention this book Green Fires by Marnie Mueller, about a Peace Corps volunteer who returns to Ecuador, returns to her country of service, and finds out that she had done the wrong things for the right reasons. But there's all this cultural interplay and history. We, as Americans, we get to a new place and we think we're the first people there. Well, in fact, these people have been there for centuries and they have histories of interaction. And if we jump in the middle of it. We're not the first people there. We're just the latest in a series of things that's causing actions and reactions. And sometimes we don't interpret everything correctly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you flew out to Denver for the second part of your training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you end up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.578159232907042, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And speaking of books about Americans' roles overseas, I again have to mention this book Green Fires by Marnie Mueller, about a Peace Corps volunteer who returns to Ecuador, returns to her country of service, and finds out that she had done the wrong things for the right reasons. But there's all this cultural interplay and history. We, as Americans, we get to a new place and we think we're the first people there. Well, in fact, these people have been there for centuries and they have histories of interaction. And if we jump in the middle of it. We're not the first people there. We're just the latest in a series of things that's causing actions and reactions. And sometimes we don't interpret everything correctly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you flew out to Denver for the second part of your training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you end up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were at the University of Denver and we were in, oh, this is really modern. We were in dorms that had apartments, and the apartments had either two or three bedrooms and a living room and dining room and kitchen. And we were on the same floor. Well, actually, the boys were on one floor and the girls were on another floor, but you could actually walk up and down the stairs and be in each other's apartments. It's not exactly coed living like they have now, but yeah, it was pretty racy for then. As far as I know, absolutely nothing went on that shouldn't have gone on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right smack in the middle of Denver, though, isn't it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.64239914767449, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where did you end up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were at the University of Denver and we were in, oh, this is really modern. We were in dorms that had apartments, and the apartments had either two or three bedrooms and a living room and dining room and kitchen. And we were on the same floor. Well, actually, the boys were on one floor and the girls were on another floor, but you could actually walk up and down the stairs and be in each other's apartments. It's not exactly coed living like they have now, but yeah, it was pretty racy for then. As far as I know, absolutely nothing went on that shouldn't have gone on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right smack in the middle of Denver, though, isn't it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's right smack in Denver and it was winter and it was cold and dry. And people would, there'd be a big snowfall and people would go out in shorts and get suntanned. Not us, because we were too busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any idea why they chose the University of Denver?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.824887941860545, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were at the University of Denver and we were in, oh, this is really modern. We were in dorms that had apartments, and the apartments had either two or three bedrooms and a living room and dining room and kitchen. And we were on the same floor. Well, actually, the boys were on one floor and the girls were on another floor, but you could actually walk up and down the stairs and be in each other's apartments. It's not exactly coed living like they have now, but yeah, it was pretty racy for then. As far as I know, absolutely nothing went on that shouldn't have gone on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right smack in the middle of Denver, though, isn't it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's right smack in Denver and it was winter and it was cold and dry. And people would, there'd be a big snowfall and people would go out in shorts and get suntanned. Not us, because we were too busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any idea why they chose the University of Denver?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I suppose in some bureaucrat's mind they'd done the hot climate, so they were going to do the cold part of Ecuador, because there's hot and cold in Ecuador. But it really had no bearing on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any resident specialists in Latin American studies or Ecuador?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.805431046511718, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's right smack in Denver and it was winter and it was cold and dry. And people would, there'd be a big snowfall and people would go out in shorts and get suntanned. Not us, because we were too busy."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any idea why they chose the University of Denver?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I suppose in some bureaucrat's mind they'd done the hot climate, so they were going to do the cold part of Ecuador, because there's hot and cold in Ecuador. But it really had no bearing on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any resident specialists in Latin American studies or Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a lot of people come and talk to us. We had five hours of Spanish every day, two hours of lab and three hours of talking in a small classroom, and we were divided up into ability levels one to six or seven, one to seven, I guess. And so you were in with people who had your same amount of learning and you had to speak in classroom as well as in the lab, which was all tape recorded Foreign Service tapes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In a small class setting, was there a teacher or an instructor present?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.89492338501302, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. And I suppose in some bureaucrat's mind they'd done the hot climate, so they were going to do the cold part of Ecuador, because there's hot and cold in Ecuador. But it really had no bearing on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any resident specialists in Latin American studies or Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a lot of people come and talk to us. We had five hours of Spanish every day, two hours of lab and three hours of talking in a small classroom, and we were divided up into ability levels one to six or seven, one to seven, I guess. And so you were in with people who had your same amount of learning and you had to speak in classroom as well as in the lab, which was all tape recorded Foreign Service tapes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In a small class setting, was there a teacher or an instructor present?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes, a native Spanish speaker. Not an American who could speak Spanish well, but a native Spanish speaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not necessarily an Ecuadorian."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.385354437603595, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not Ecuadorians. We had a Chilean and ours was a Mexican lady. And they kept us very busy at that. And then we had lectures on, it was called ASWAC, A-S-W-A-K [sic]. American society, something or other, and communism. And they would give us lectures to make sure that we understood our country. And most of us have had that sort of thing through grade school, middle school and high school, as well as if anybody took any courses in college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was this young man, actually more than one young man, who raised their hands and asked questions and commented and made remarks to these speakers, because the young men felt that they knew more about the situation than the people speaking, and sometimes they did. Because one of these guys, I later married. Some of the speakers, a great deal of the speakers who came to us, I don't know where or why the Peace Corps recruited these people, but they would come in and say, well, I'm here to talk to you about community development in Ecuador. Now I haven't been to Ecuador, but I just got back from Vietnam, and I can tell you there's a communist behind every tree and you have to be very careful. And I don't know how many speakers started that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many, many of them had just come back from Vietnam. And why the Peace Corps was attracted to these people? And the people who had traveled in Latin America. My at that point future husband had gone to grad school and did his thesis on social reform during the forties in Argentina under Juan Peron. And then he and his roommate had taken a trip through all of South America and Latin America by bus for six months, staying in really small places and spending very little money. And he did know something about Latin America after that experience, so he felt qualified to challenge some of the experts that were brought in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you were Ecuador VII. So there was a project in Ecuador beginning as early as '61, '62?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.094838264003994, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was this young man, actually more than one young man, who raised their hands and asked questions and commented and made remarks to these speakers, because the young men felt that they knew more about the situation than the people speaking, and sometimes they did. Because one of these guys, I later married. Some of the speakers, a great deal of the speakers who came to us, I don't know where or why the Peace Corps recruited these people, but they would come in and say, well, I'm here to talk to you about community development in Ecuador. Now I haven't been to Ecuador, but I just got back from Vietnam, and I can tell you there's a communist behind every tree and you have to be very careful. And I don't know how many speakers started that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many, many of them had just come back from Vietnam. And why the Peace Corps was attracted to these people? And the people who had traveled in Latin America. My at that point future husband had gone to grad school and did his thesis on social reform during the forties in Argentina under Juan Peron. And then he and his roommate had taken a trip through all of South America and Latin America by bus for six months, staying in really small places and spending very little money. And he did know something about Latin America after that experience, so he felt qualified to challenge some of the experts that were brought in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you were Ecuador VII. So there was a project in Ecuador beginning as early as '61, '62?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There must have been because."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any idea of what Ecuador I, II, III, IV had done or was doing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.883153626671104, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Many, many of them had just come back from Vietnam. And why the Peace Corps was attracted to these people? And the people who had traveled in Latin America. My at that point future husband had gone to grad school and did his thesis on social reform during the forties in Argentina under Juan Peron. And then he and his roommate had taken a trip through all of South America and Latin America by bus for six months, staying in really small places and spending very little money. And he did know something about Latin America after that experience, so he felt qualified to challenge some of the experts that were brought in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you were Ecuador VII. So there was a project in Ecuador beginning as early as '61, '62?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There must have been because."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any idea of what Ecuador I, II, III, IV had done or was doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well at that point, I had none."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And so no one came from the field."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.759059585190116, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There must have been because."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any idea of what Ecuador I, II, III, IV had done or was doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well at that point, I had none."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And so no one came from the field."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about Peace Corps staff from Washington or people who would be working with you once you got in the field? Do you remember any of them at the university?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.510066205766794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well at that point, I had none."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And so no one came from the field."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How about Peace Corps staff from Washington or people who would be working with you once you got in the field? Do you remember any of them at the university?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had, uh, Carston Lane was one of the Peace Corps Washington staff. And he was a little strange but tried to keep us on the official line doing what we were supposed to be doing. But he wasn't involved in the day to day operations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How were you, during this time, how were you aware of the selection process?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.037118772551597, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had, uh, Carston Lane was one of the Peace Corps Washington staff. And he was a little strange but tried to keep us on the official line doing what we were supposed to be doing. But he wasn't involved in the day to day operations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How were you, during this time, how were you aware of the selection process?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the selection process. This was when we had peer ratings. And at the end of every six weeks or it seemed like it was fairly often, but it probably wasn't that often, we had to fill out a questionnaire. And the questionnaire asked which three people do you think would make the best Peace Corps volunteers? Which three people would make the worst Peace Corps volunteers? Which two people would you like to be stranded on a desert island with? And, um, a lot of other questions, and then we began to realize that these rating sheets were taken in by the four psychologists and one psychiatrist that were overseeing our group. And taken together, put with their findings, and used as a means of kicking people out of the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And at some point we just refused to fill out at least the part about rating each other. But the psychologists were not at all responsible, some of them. They told one young man that every single person had voted against him. So he looked every one of us individually in the eye, and he knew that we had each voted against him. But when you voted against somebody, it was most likely because you didn't know them very well. They weren't outgoing. It didn't mean that they couldn't have been a good volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Did you each undergo a psychiatric interview?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.8190208583906635, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, the selection process. This was when we had peer ratings. And at the end of every six weeks or it seemed like it was fairly often, but it probably wasn't that often, we had to fill out a questionnaire. And the questionnaire asked which three people do you think would make the best Peace Corps volunteers? Which three people would make the worst Peace Corps volunteers? Which two people would you like to be stranded on a desert island with? And, um, a lot of other questions, and then we began to realize that these rating sheets were taken in by the four psychologists and one psychiatrist that were overseeing our group. And taken together, put with their findings, and used as a means of kicking people out of the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And at some point we just refused to fill out at least the part about rating each other. But the psychologists were not at all responsible, some of them. They told one young man that every single person had voted against him. So he looked every one of us individually in the eye, and he knew that we had each voted against him. But when you voted against somebody, it was most likely because you didn't know them very well. They weren't outgoing. It didn't mean that they couldn't have been a good volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Did you each undergo a psychiatric interview?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, many, many of them. We had psychiatric, psychological or psychiatric groups which were not Grupo Be, but they were different groups put together. I don't know how. And then they'd get us together as if it were a psychoanalysis session. And they would ask us, what do you think about the group and who do you think is the worst person? And of course, the person chosen would be somebody that wasn't in the room. And what do you think we should do about this? How can we make her be better and what is your thinking about? And it was all, most of us saw it as total nonsense. But they were using this to evaluate us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you, as an individual, had at least one separate interview with a psychiatrist and one with the psychologist."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.687800953767404, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And at some point we just refused to fill out at least the part about rating each other. But the psychologists were not at all responsible, some of them. They told one young man that every single person had voted against him. So he looked every one of us individually in the eye, and he knew that we had each voted against him. But when you voted against somebody, it was most likely because you didn't know them very well. They weren't outgoing. It didn't mean that they couldn't have been a good volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Did you each undergo a psychiatric interview?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, many, many of them. We had psychiatric, psychological or psychiatric groups which were not Grupo Be, but they were different groups put together. I don't know how. And then they'd get us together as if it were a psychoanalysis session. And they would ask us, what do you think about the group and who do you think is the worst person? And of course, the person chosen would be somebody that wasn't in the room. And what do you think we should do about this? How can we make her be better and what is your thinking about? And it was all, most of us saw it as total nonsense. But they were using this to evaluate us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you, as an individual, had at least one separate interview with a psychiatrist and one with the psychologist."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, because one of the things that struck me has struck many people. You have no experience of psychiatry. I mean, you haven't been, you've never seen a psychiatrist and all of a sudden you're in a position of wanting to be in the Peace Corps and wanting to go to Ecuador, and you've got to confront this."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.65311217085267, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, many, many of them. We had psychiatric, psychological or psychiatric groups which were not Grupo Be, but they were different groups put together. I don't know how. And then they'd get us together as if it were a psychoanalysis session. And they would ask us, what do you think about the group and who do you think is the worst person? And of course, the person chosen would be somebody that wasn't in the room. And what do you think we should do about this? How can we make her be better and what is your thinking about? And it was all, most of us saw it as total nonsense. But they were using this to evaluate us."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you, as an individual, had at least one separate interview with a psychiatrist and one with the psychologist."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, because one of the things that struck me has struck many people. You have no experience of psychiatry. I mean, you haven't been, you've never seen a psychiatrist and all of a sudden you're in a position of wanting to be in the Peace Corps and wanting to go to Ecuador, and you've got to confront this."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you particularly recall it or was it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 9.695200210929222, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you particularly recall it or was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do, because of some of the questions he asked. My major was, my minor was psych."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had wanted, actually after I'd had a couple of years in college, I decided what I really would like to do was be a psychoanalyst or a clinical psychologist. But I didn't. I wasn't able. I mean, I didn't think that my parents would pay to put me through more college than four years of college, and I had younger brothers who had to go to college. So I stuck with what I had, but I was a little maybe more familiar than some people. The psychologist that interviewed me asked me if I, when I got very, very frustrated, did I ever feel that I had to go out and drag a man home to my bed? And I thought this was a rather bizarre thing to be asking a 21 year old girl right out of college. I don't know whether it was bizarre or not, but it certainly seems so to me. Nobody had ever said that to me before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And this was 1962."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.328000234365802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I do, because of some of the questions he asked. My major was, my minor was psych."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had wanted, actually after I'd had a couple of years in college, I decided what I really would like to do was be a psychoanalyst or a clinical psychologist. But I didn't. I wasn't able. I mean, I didn't think that my parents would pay to put me through more college than four years of college, and I had younger brothers who had to go to college. So I stuck with what I had, but I was a little maybe more familiar than some people. The psychologist that interviewed me asked me if I, when I got very, very frustrated, did I ever feel that I had to go out and drag a man home to my bed? And I thought this was a rather bizarre thing to be asking a 21 year old girl right out of college. I don't know whether it was bizarre or not, but it certainly seems so to me. Nobody had ever said that to me before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And this was 1962."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we have to, you know, the nineties and the 2000s are very different than '63, '64. So um. The interviews with psychologists, I think, tended to go rather flat because once people realized that the psychologists were ruling people out, I think most of the group became non-cooperative."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were people deselected during training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.031111371517557, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I had wanted, actually after I'd had a couple of years in college, I decided what I really would like to do was be a psychoanalyst or a clinical psychologist. But I didn't. I wasn't able. I mean, I didn't think that my parents would pay to put me through more college than four years of college, and I had younger brothers who had to go to college. So I stuck with what I had, but I was a little maybe more familiar than some people. The psychologist that interviewed me asked me if I, when I got very, very frustrated, did I ever feel that I had to go out and drag a man home to my bed? And I thought this was a rather bizarre thing to be asking a 21 year old girl right out of college. I don't know whether it was bizarre or not, but it certainly seems so to me. Nobody had ever said that to me before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. And this was 1962."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we have to, you know, the nineties and the 2000s are very different than '63, '64. So um. The interviews with psychologists, I think, tended to go rather flat because once people realized that the psychologists were ruling people out, I think most of the group became non-cooperative."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were people deselected during training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So people were disappearing. You'd come to class."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.590123746130619, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we have to, you know, the nineties and the 2000s are very different than '63, '64. So um. The interviews with psychologists, I think, tended to go rather flat because once people realized that the psychologists were ruling people out, I think most of the group became non-cooperative."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were people deselected during training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So people were disappearing. You'd come to class."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the first deselection was Valentine's Day. We call it the Valentine's Day massacre, and my future husband to be was deselected. Just prior to that, his shoulder dislocated in one of these things that you're not required to do. It was a basketball game. Everybody's playing. And he has trick shoulders and Peace Corps told him that they couldn't be responsible for him in South America if his shoulders were going to dislocate. They didn't know where he would be, how far from help he would be. And this was maybe the third time that his shoulder had dislocated. And it's in fact, it's happened, I think, a total of eight times now, both shoulders, and there's really no way to fix it. Just stay out of positions that are going to. Don't ski, for example. Anyway, a lot of people were kicked out. I don't know, 12 people out of the total number, something like that. And some of them for reasons that you couldn't understand. They seem like perfectly fine people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody made any explanations to you, to the group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.2112486068117985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So people were disappearing. You'd come to class."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the first deselection was Valentine's Day. We call it the Valentine's Day massacre, and my future husband to be was deselected. Just prior to that, his shoulder dislocated in one of these things that you're not required to do. It was a basketball game. Everybody's playing. And he has trick shoulders and Peace Corps told him that they couldn't be responsible for him in South America if his shoulders were going to dislocate. They didn't know where he would be, how far from help he would be. And this was maybe the third time that his shoulder had dislocated. And it's in fact, it's happened, I think, a total of eight times now, both shoulders, and there's really no way to fix it. Just stay out of positions that are going to. Don't ski, for example. Anyway, a lot of people were kicked out. I don't know, 12 people out of the total number, something like that. And some of them for reasons that you couldn't understand. They seem like perfectly fine people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody made any explanations to you, to the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not that I remember. It's possible that something was said. Maybe they met with us and said, these people are leaving and you'll have to take our word for it that they're not going to be good volunteers. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When your future husband was deselected, had you been dating before?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.901387340901998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the first deselection was Valentine's Day. We call it the Valentine's Day massacre, and my future husband to be was deselected. Just prior to that, his shoulder dislocated in one of these things that you're not required to do. It was a basketball game. Everybody's playing. And he has trick shoulders and Peace Corps told him that they couldn't be responsible for him in South America if his shoulders were going to dislocate. They didn't know where he would be, how far from help he would be. And this was maybe the third time that his shoulder had dislocated. And it's in fact, it's happened, I think, a total of eight times now, both shoulders, and there's really no way to fix it. Just stay out of positions that are going to. Don't ski, for example. Anyway, a lot of people were kicked out. I don't know, 12 people out of the total number, something like that. And some of them for reasons that you couldn't understand. They seem like perfectly fine people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And nobody made any explanations to you, to the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not that I remember. It's possible that something was said. Maybe they met with us and said, these people are leaving and you'll have to take our word for it that they're not going to be good volunteers. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When your future husband was deselected, had you been dating before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. He had been dating my roommate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. So it wasn't, I mean, then it wasn't you had envisioned being there with him and that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.6682081565577755, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not that I remember. It's possible that something was said. Maybe they met with us and said, these people are leaving and you'll have to take our word for it that they're not going to be good volunteers. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When your future husband was deselected, had you been dating before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. He had been dating my roommate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. So it wasn't, I mean, then it wasn't you had envisioned being there with him and that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. There were a lot of people very unhappy because by that time we had formed friendships."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Oh yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 8.520231285064195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. He had been dating my roommate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. So it wasn't, I mean, then it wasn't you had envisioned being there with him and that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. There were a lot of people very unhappy because by that time we had formed friendships."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Oh yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it wasn't that I envisioned being in South America with him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long was the entire period at Denver?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.8002569834046622, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. There were a lot of people very unhappy because by that time we had formed friendships."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Oh yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it wasn't that I envisioned being in South America with him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long was the entire period at Denver?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, from maybe January 2nd to sometime in March. I don't know exactly, because I know that we did go down for one or two weeks to Mexico. We split up after this training. There were at least two deselections, possibly three during that time. Then the rural group went to the UNESCO Training Center, which is the acronym is CREFAL, C-R-E-F- A-L, in Pátzcuaro, Mexico, where we were given courses. We were given in Spanish lectures on community action."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were in that group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.1113966482274025, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it wasn't that I envisioned being in South America with him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long was the entire period at Denver?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, from maybe January 2nd to sometime in March. I don't know exactly, because I know that we did go down for one or two weeks to Mexico. We split up after this training. There were at least two deselections, possibly three during that time. Then the rural group went to the UNESCO Training Center, which is the acronym is CREFAL, C-R-E-F- A-L, in Pátzcuaro, Mexico, where we were given courses. We were given in Spanish lectures on community action."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were in that group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in that group. I was really lucky because that was a wonderful experience. Really nice people working there and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously your Spanish had improved and the language training took with you, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.457107386919336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, from maybe January 2nd to sometime in March. I don't know exactly, because I know that we did go down for one or two weeks to Mexico. We split up after this training. There were at least two deselections, possibly three during that time. Then the rural group went to the UNESCO Training Center, which is the acronym is CREFAL, C-R-E-F- A-L, in Pátzcuaro, Mexico, where we were given courses. We were given in Spanish lectures on community action."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were in that group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in that group. I was really lucky because that was a wonderful experience. Really nice people working there and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously your Spanish had improved and the language training took with you, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it took with everybody to some extent. I mean, you can't spend five hours a day. We were all dreaming in Spanish and talking in our sleep in Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you were evaluated in Spanish while you were still in Denver, did you get some kind of rating that you were an FSR something?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.841230429910373, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in that group. I was really lucky because that was a wonderful experience. Really nice people working there and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously your Spanish had improved and the language training took with you, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it took with everybody to some extent. I mean, you can't spend five hours a day. We were all dreaming in Spanish and talking in our sleep in Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you were evaluated in Spanish while you were still in Denver, did you get some kind of rating that you were an FSR something?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was never told anything like that. I don't even remember an evaluation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they know that you knew Spanish?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.2680338110115255, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it took with everybody to some extent. I mean, you can't spend five hours a day. We were all dreaming in Spanish and talking in our sleep in Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you were evaluated in Spanish while you were still in Denver, did you get some kind of rating that you were an FSR something?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was never told anything like that. I don't even remember an evaluation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they know that you knew Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know whether they did know. Well, they probably talked to the language teachers and the language teachers could easily tell. I was in the next to the highest group. My roommate in Ecuador, who did go to Ecuador, was in the bottom group, who didn't know any Spanish and doesn't really seem to have an inclination toward languages. But because of her skills, one way or another, she was sent down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still in Denver, during training, did you begin to get a sense of what your role was going to be or might be when you got to Ecuador? Or was the focus still sort of general and generic?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.742259790012806, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was never told anything like that. I don't even remember an evaluation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they know that you knew Spanish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know whether they did know. Well, they probably talked to the language teachers and the language teachers could easily tell. I was in the next to the highest group. My roommate in Ecuador, who did go to Ecuador, was in the bottom group, who didn't know any Spanish and doesn't really seem to have an inclination toward languages. But because of her skills, one way or another, she was sent down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still in Denver, during training, did you begin to get a sense of what your role was going to be or might be when you got to Ecuador? Or was the focus still sort of general and generic?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they tried. They showed us how to kill chickens and how to dismember them, pluck them, and put them together. They showed the men how to lay a water main, including pouring the lead into the turnings and everything. This was very sexist orientation, but that's the way Latin America is. Women are not going to be laying water mains. So we had some idea that this might be handy. We were also given courses in health, in sanitation, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But was there anything specific to Ecuador, that this is the rural urban split and these kind of villages and the general needs might be?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:209", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.854641716065193, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they tried. They showed us how to kill chickens and how to dismember them, pluck them, and put them together. They showed the men how to lay a water main, including pouring the lead into the turnings and everything. This was very sexist orientation, but that's the way Latin America is. Women are not going to be laying water mains. So we had some idea that this might be handy. We were also given courses in health, in sanitation, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But was there anything specific to Ecuador, that this is the rural urban split and these kind of villages and the general needs might be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there was very little information about specifics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ecuador history?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We probably had some Ecuador history. I don't remember now. But they didn't tell us who was going where. And they didn't tell us, uh, I suppose some of that would depend on how you worked out in the urban rural situation you were put in. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well did they know do you think?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.505157462294659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, there was very little information about specifics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ecuador history?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We probably had some Ecuador history. I don't remember now. But they didn't tell us who was going where. And they didn't tell us, uh, I suppose some of that would depend on how you worked out in the urban rural situation you were put in. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well did they know do you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not. Not at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Was there Peace Corps field staff who would touch base at the training to become familiar with you? I mean, was there any kind of communication between the field and training that you knew of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.116841624771843, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We probably had some Ecuador history. I don't remember now. But they didn't tell us who was going where. And they didn't tell us, uh, I suppose some of that would depend on how you worked out in the urban rural situation you were put in. I don't know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well did they know do you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not. Not at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Was there Peace Corps field staff who would touch base at the training to become familiar with you? I mean, was there any kind of communication between the field and training that you knew of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's hard for me to remember. But it's possible the director, who was Gene Baird, came and visited us, but he wouldn't have been given an opportunity to make any selection or anything. And there was nobody who really told us what life is like in a village or life is like in Guayaquil in the big city. So we really didn't have. Most of our speakers had talked to us about Vietnam."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any Washington visitors?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.551656326878819, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's hard for me to remember. But it's possible the director, who was Gene Baird, came and visited us, but he wouldn't have been given an opportunity to make any selection or anything. And there was nobody who really told us what life is like in a village or life is like in Guayaquil in the big city. So we really didn't have. Most of our speakers had talked to us about Vietnam."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any Washington visitors?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Carston Lane was one who was constantly. He must have been in charge of our group because he would be there every so often and give us a little chat about official stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Shriver? Bill Moyers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.390729252087576, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Name people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Carston Lane was one who was constantly. He must have been in charge of our group because he would be there every so often and give us a little chat about official stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Shriver? Bill Moyers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, no, no. Those were big guys and we were just a very small group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You never knew where Shriver was going to pop up"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.32303250231953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Carston Lane was one who was constantly. He must have been in charge of our group because he would be there every so often and give us a little chat about official stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Shriver? Bill Moyers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, no, no. Those were big guys and we were just a very small group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You never knew where Shriver was going to pop up"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he didn't seem to pop up in our place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a sense of you were going off sort of individual or in small group on this adventure? Or did you have a strong link to the Peace Corps? I mean, do you have any sense of that? Don't let me put words in your mouth, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.509916669530282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he didn't seem to pop up in our place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a sense of you were going off sort of individual or in small group on this adventure? Or did you have a strong link to the Peace Corps? I mean, do you have any sense of that? Don't let me put words in your mouth, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my background is my relatives were all military. I was used to being a government subsidy or a government person. And yes, and the kind of person I am, I felt loyalty to the Peace Corps. I felt this was my organization that I belonged to. I don't know that everybody felt the same way. I had heard many negative reports about training, even about Outward Bound, which my husband and I felt was one of the best experiences in our lives we've ever had. And we felt that way right afterwards, whereas a lot of people in our group felt it was very negative and didn't like it. And I don't know how they feel about it now. But there were lots of different feelings about the whole organization.\n\nMy experience has been, since I have a daughter who was in the Peace Corps too, and I was a staff wife at one point, that the worst thing that volunteers. Well, one of the worst things that they encounter is their antagonism toward the administration. And they're always going to be fighting the administration. And unlike many jobs, it's the volunteers who are doing the job that was supposed to be done. It's not the administration that's there to be the administration. I mean, they're there as backup, but it's the people on the bottom that are there doing the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's an interesting way to, um, to see a structure of an organization and have to deal with people. When you get somebody in who is a supervisor or a boss, he's often used to knowing everything and telling people how he wants them to behave. And in the Peace Corps, it's often the other way around. The volunteer is the person who knows the things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so you went Denver, two weeks in Mexico at the UNESCO Training Center."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.67768518836698, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, my background is my relatives were all military. I was used to being a government subsidy or a government person. And yes, and the kind of person I am, I felt loyalty to the Peace Corps. I felt this was my organization that I belonged to. I don't know that everybody felt the same way. I had heard many negative reports about training, even about Outward Bound, which my husband and I felt was one of the best experiences in our lives we've ever had. And we felt that way right afterwards, whereas a lot of people in our group felt it was very negative and didn't like it. And I don't know how they feel about it now. But there were lots of different feelings about the whole organization.\n\nMy experience has been, since I have a daughter who was in the Peace Corps too, and I was a staff wife at one point, that the worst thing that volunteers. Well, one of the worst things that they encounter is their antagonism toward the administration. And they're always going to be fighting the administration. And unlike many jobs, it's the volunteers who are doing the job that was supposed to be done. It's not the administration that's there to be the administration. I mean, they're there as backup, but it's the people on the bottom that are there doing the job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Interesting point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's an interesting way to, um, to see a structure of an organization and have to deal with people. When you get somebody in who is a supervisor or a boss, he's often used to knowing everything and telling people how he wants them to behave. And in the Peace Corps, it's often the other way around. The volunteer is the person who knows the things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so you went Denver, two weeks in Mexico at the UNESCO Training Center."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And the other half, the urban half, went to San Antonio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at that point, there was an urban rural split made in the group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.975205764852198, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it's an interesting way to, um, to see a structure of an organization and have to deal with people. When you get somebody in who is a supervisor or a boss, he's often used to knowing everything and telling people how he wants them to behave. And in the Peace Corps, it's often the other way around. The volunteer is the person who knows the things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, so you went Denver, two weeks in Mexico at the UNESCO Training Center."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And the other half, the urban half, went to San Antonio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at that point, there was an urban rural split made in the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but it still wasn't guaranteed that it would be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was a good experience in that you were totally you were in a complete Spanish language environment?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.41689529428022, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And the other half, the urban half, went to San Antonio."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at that point, there was an urban rural split made in the group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but it still wasn't guaranteed that it would be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was a good experience in that you were totally you were in a complete Spanish language environment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I meant to say while we were being lectured in Spanish by knowledgeable people about community action, we didn't all understand everything that was being said. We understood according to our Spanish level. But sometimes when you're in a situation like that, things just go over your head. As much as you try very hard to listen to everything, there reaches a point at which you're saturated and you just can't understand anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And again, sitting in a lecture hall, listening to Spanish and maybe even asking a few questions is still different than the way you're going to use language once you're in the country. You're going to use it by saying, I'd like to buy a loaf of bread, or something, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.796550326978021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but it still wasn't guaranteed that it would be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that was a good experience in that you were totally you were in a complete Spanish language environment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I meant to say while we were being lectured in Spanish by knowledgeable people about community action, we didn't all understand everything that was being said. We understood according to our Spanish level. But sometimes when you're in a situation like that, things just go over your head. As much as you try very hard to listen to everything, there reaches a point at which you're saturated and you just can't understand anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And again, sitting in a lecture hall, listening to Spanish and maybe even asking a few questions is still different than the way you're going to use language once you're in the country. You're going to use it by saying, I'd like to buy a loaf of bread, or something, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did that in our five hours a day. In the three hours that we had, we were eight people in a room with somebody who kept us talking all the time. Made us devise skits, made us interact and work together and come up with all the local things. I think that they were told to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were feeling comfortable with your ability in language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.329500363308913, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I meant to say while we were being lectured in Spanish by knowledgeable people about community action, we didn't all understand everything that was being said. We understood according to our Spanish level. But sometimes when you're in a situation like that, things just go over your head. As much as you try very hard to listen to everything, there reaches a point at which you're saturated and you just can't understand anymore."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And again, sitting in a lecture hall, listening to Spanish and maybe even asking a few questions is still different than the way you're going to use language once you're in the country. You're going to use it by saying, I'd like to buy a loaf of bread, or something, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did that in our five hours a day. In the three hours that we had, we were eight people in a room with somebody who kept us talking all the time. Made us devise skits, made us interact and work together and come up with all the local things. I think that they were told to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were feeling comfortable with your ability in language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. If I'd been given a quiz after one of these lectures, though, I don't know that I would have done very well, but I was gaining. We went to markets and things, and we were able to say a few words and I was feeling somewhat comfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you still in a dorm setting when you were in Mexico?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:237", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.921667070343236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we did that in our five hours a day. In the three hours that we had, we were eight people in a room with somebody who kept us talking all the time. Made us devise skits, made us interact and work together and come up with all the local things. I think that they were told to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were feeling comfortable with your ability in language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. If I'd been given a quiz after one of these lectures, though, I don't know that I would have done very well, but I was gaining. We went to markets and things, and we were able to say a few words and I was feeling somewhat comfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you still in a dorm setting when you were in Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it wasn't a dorm. I can't, I can't remember exactly. I think that there were rooms, like they might have maybe two people in a room or something like that. Sort of like a motel where they would have put people up for the United Nations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What after the two weeks in Mexico?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.690741189270263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. If I'd been given a quiz after one of these lectures, though, I don't know that I would have done very well, but I was gaining. We went to markets and things, and we were able to say a few words and I was feeling somewhat comfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you still in a dorm setting when you were in Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it wasn't a dorm. I can't, I can't remember exactly. I think that there were rooms, like they might have maybe two people in a room or something like that. Sort of like a motel where they would have put people up for the United Nations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What after the two weeks in Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then we were flown to San Antonio, where we were sworn-in in the airport. We were met with the San Antonio group. We were sworn-in as Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the urban group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.434156876966956, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it wasn't a dorm. I can't, I can't remember exactly. I think that there were rooms, like they might have maybe two people in a room or something like that. Sort of like a motel where they would have put people up for the United Nations."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What after the two weeks in Mexico?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then we were flown to San Antonio, where we were sworn-in in the airport. We were met with the San Antonio group. We were sworn-in as Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the urban group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The urban group was in San Antonio. We came up. And we didn't get out of the airport. We were just flown there and then met them. Everybody, there was no deselection after the last week or two. I mean, after we were split up. Everybody who was sent there was accepted. You were still given a chance to get out of it if you wanted to get out of it. And then the same day we were flown to Miami and we were supposed to catch a plane for Ecuador. The plane was delayed for mechanical reasons, and it went on forever and ever, and we were very tired after going Mexico, San Antonio, Miami."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it charter or regular flight?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.03795208551884, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then we were flown to San Antonio, where we were sworn-in in the airport. We were met with the San Antonio group. We were sworn-in as Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the urban group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The urban group was in San Antonio. We came up. And we didn't get out of the airport. We were just flown there and then met them. Everybody, there was no deselection after the last week or two. I mean, after we were split up. Everybody who was sent there was accepted. You were still given a chance to get out of it if you wanted to get out of it. And then the same day we were flown to Miami and we were supposed to catch a plane for Ecuador. The plane was delayed for mechanical reasons, and it went on forever and ever, and we were very tired after going Mexico, San Antonio, Miami."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it charter or regular flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Regular flight, Panagra. And it was delayed, delayed, delayed. And we were. It was the middle of the night, 2:00 in the morning, something like that. And we didn't have hotel rooms. I think a couple of volunteers splurged and there was a hotel in the Miami airport and they went to a hotel room. But the rest of us were sitting or sleeping on those where they had an exhibit with an automobile on a platform with carpeting. They were lying on the carpeting. And we finally took off and got down to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now this at that point, how long had you been in the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.70883565057649, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The urban group was in San Antonio. We came up. And we didn't get out of the airport. We were just flown there and then met them. Everybody, there was no deselection after the last week or two. I mean, after we were split up. Everybody who was sent there was accepted. You were still given a chance to get out of it if you wanted to get out of it. And then the same day we were flown to Miami and we were supposed to catch a plane for Ecuador. The plane was delayed for mechanical reasons, and it went on forever and ever, and we were very tired after going Mexico, San Antonio, Miami."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it charter or regular flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Regular flight, Panagra. And it was delayed, delayed, delayed. And we were. It was the middle of the night, 2:00 in the morning, something like that. And we didn't have hotel rooms. I think a couple of volunteers splurged and there was a hotel in the Miami airport and they went to a hotel room. But the rest of us were sitting or sleeping on those where they had an exhibit with an automobile on a platform with carpeting. They were lying on the carpeting. And we finally took off and got down to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now this at that point, how long had you been in the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a total of four months of training, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. All right. And you were going with the expectation that you would do 20 months as a volunteer, in other words, for a two year tour all together?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 17.454261833973877, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Regular flight, Panagra. And it was delayed, delayed, delayed. And we were. It was the middle of the night, 2:00 in the morning, something like that. And we didn't have hotel rooms. I think a couple of volunteers splurged and there was a hotel in the Miami airport and they went to a hotel room. But the rest of us were sitting or sleeping on those where they had an exhibit with an automobile on a platform with carpeting. They were lying on the carpeting. And we finally took off and got down to Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now this at that point, how long had you been in the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a total of four months of training, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. All right. And you were going with the expectation that you would do 20 months as a volunteer, in other words, for a two year tour all together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn't aware whether it was 20 months or 24 months in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that point. It wasn't a concern."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.06029092663764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a total of four months of training, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. All right. And you were going with the expectation that you would do 20 months as a volunteer, in other words, for a two year tour all together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn't aware whether it was 20 months or 24 months in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that point. It wasn't a concern."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I called, I was instructed by Mike, with whom I had been writing letters since he had been deselected. We'd been exchanging letters, actually it turned out to be on a daily basis. And he said, you must call me. Call me collect from the airport. It's urgent. And so I called him, and he proposed. Now we had never dated. We had never gone out. We had been in class together for a couple of months. But anyway, I accepted tentatively. I accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well that's funny because you're about to get on a plane to go to Ecuador."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:251", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.400323251819604, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wasn't aware whether it was 20 months or 24 months in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that point. It wasn't a concern."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I called, I was instructed by Mike, with whom I had been writing letters since he had been deselected. We'd been exchanging letters, actually it turned out to be on a daily basis. And he said, you must call me. Call me collect from the airport. It's urgent. And so I called him, and he proposed. Now we had never dated. We had never gone out. We had been in class together for a couple of months. But anyway, I accepted tentatively. I accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well that's funny because you're about to get on a plane to go to Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I told him that I was committed to this project. I really, I did not want to quit. I did not want to. I was committed to this enterprise and his proposal said in two years or whenever we can, whenever we can. Meanwhile, he was looking for a job in Latin America because his training had been in Latin America, and that's what he wanted to do. And he did get a job in Venezuela, in Acción in Venezuela, a private. It started the same year the same month as the Peace Corps, but it was a private community action. [tape break] Yes and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me just. This is tape two, Julia Mehrer. OK."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:253", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.889248057577337, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I called, I was instructed by Mike, with whom I had been writing letters since he had been deselected. We'd been exchanging letters, actually it turned out to be on a daily basis. And he said, you must call me. Call me collect from the airport. It's urgent. And so I called him, and he proposed. Now we had never dated. We had never gone out. We had been in class together for a couple of months. But anyway, I accepted tentatively. I accepted."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well that's funny because you're about to get on a plane to go to Ecuador."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I told him that I was committed to this project. I really, I did not want to quit. I did not want to. I was committed to this enterprise and his proposal said in two years or whenever we can, whenever we can. Meanwhile, he was looking for a job in Latin America because his training had been in Latin America, and that's what he wanted to do. And he did get a job in Venezuela, in Acción in Venezuela, a private. It started the same year the same month as the Peace Corps, but it was a private community action. [tape break] Yes and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let me just. This is tape two, Julia Mehrer. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we agreed that whenever we could manage it. And both of us realized without saying it that if we waited for two years, we probably would have grown in different ways and it most likely was not going to work. So it was just in the back of our minds. But I didn't really know what I was going to do about it because I was going down to a job that I expected to have for two years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So you finally got out of the airport and down to Ecuador with the marriage proposal in mind, but also the now ready to start work as a volunteer. Take it from there. I mean, what happened? Was there more training in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.937343280959672, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So we agreed that whenever we could manage it. And both of us realized without saying it that if we waited for two years, we probably would have grown in different ways and it most likely was not going to work. So it was just in the back of our minds. But I didn't really know what I was going to do about it because I was going down to a job that I expected to have for two years."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So you finally got out of the airport and down to Ecuador with the marriage proposal in mind, but also the now ready to start work as a volunteer. Take it from there. I mean, what happened? Was there more training in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, thankfully. We were all very sick of the training. One thing I forgot to mention in the university training I just want to insert here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The head of the community development department of the University of Missouri came and was giving us a lecture on what community development is. And he said, if you get down there and you've called a meeting at the water fountain for 7:00, and if they don't show up by 7:15, you have to teach them the right way to do things. You, if they're not there by 7:15 or 7:20, you leave and tell them they have to be there because this is the way we do it. And I think most people, at any rate, I realized that this was not the way to get anything accomplished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He must have worked for AID."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.626349729579841, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The head of the community development department of the University of Missouri came and was giving us a lecture on what community development is. And he said, if you get down there and you've called a meeting at the water fountain for 7:00, and if they don't show up by 7:15, you have to teach them the right way to do things. You, if they're not there by 7:15 or 7:20, you leave and tell them they have to be there because this is the way we do it. And I think most people, at any rate, I realized that this was not the way to get anything accomplished."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He must have worked for AID."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I don't know. I don't think he worked for anybody because I don't think anybody could accomplish something, other than maybe in America or England or Germany with that kind of attitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that struck me as very strange. And of course, afterwards when I got to working with Acción, who actually knew something about community action and had a whole plan for how you do step A, then you go to step B. Then I realized how wrong that really was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but let's. You arrive in Ecuador with the group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:263", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.029277477310934, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I don't know. I don't think he worked for anybody because I don't think anybody could accomplish something, other than maybe in America or England or Germany with that kind of attitude."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that struck me as very strange. And of course, afterwards when I got to working with Acción, who actually knew something about community action and had a whole plan for how you do step A, then you go to step B. Then I realized how wrong that really was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but let's. You arrive in Ecuador with the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So we had a day or two in Quito in a small pension with, oh, I think maybe we had several beds in a room there as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You're now the rural group?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.588086085901038, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that struck me as very strange. And of course, afterwards when I got to working with Acción, who actually knew something about community action and had a whole plan for how you do step A, then you go to step B. Then I realized how wrong that really was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, but let's. You arrive in Ecuador with the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So we had a day or two in Quito in a small pension with, oh, I think maybe we had several beds in a room there as well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You're now the rural group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we're still, we're still the whole group together. We have come from either 56 or 65 down to 35. Been kicked out. Nobody, as far as I know, left on their own volition. They were all, all of those people were deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a sense that many of them, many of these deselections were for language reasons? Or you didn't know?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.275561120257818, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We lived in the furthest away province, just just barely, so were allowed. I think we flew back once before I left the Peace Corps. And then when my future husband came down to visit just before we got married, I had to go up. And I couldn't afford to fly on my own, so I took a bus. It was 23 hours by bus. It's now maybe six."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And when you flew locally, that was Ecuadorian airlines?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And Cuenca, for instance, had an airport, probably still the same, that because it's surrounded by the very tall Andes and the planes have to get up over. Well, the plane had to circle and circle and circle and to get lower and lower before it could land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can picture. I don't know that I'd want to be on the plane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was a little frightening at times. One has to just get over the feeling and say, these people must know what they're doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Peace Corps gave you the rules and regulations."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.639512355842019, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And Cuenca, for instance, had an airport, probably still the same, that because it's surrounded by the very tall Andes and the planes have to get up over. Well, the plane had to circle and circle and circle and to get lower and lower before it could land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can picture. I don't know that I'd want to be on the plane."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was a little frightening at times. One has to just get over the feeling and say, these people must know what they're doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Peace Corps gave you the rules and regulations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Excuse me a sec."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were going to receive a living allowance, paid by the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:279", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.043902617602242, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was a little frightening at times. One has to just get over the feeling and say, these people must know what they're doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So Peace Corps gave you the rules and regulations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Excuse me a sec."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were going to receive a living allowance, paid by the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We received one hundred dollars a month in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that point did you meet an Ecuadorian counterpart or anyone from the Ecuadorian ministry?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:281", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.604336241780269, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. Excuse me a sec."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were going to receive a living allowance, paid by the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We received one hundred dollars a month in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that point did you meet an Ecuadorian counterpart or anyone from the Ecuadorian ministry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. What they did was finally tell us where we were scheduled to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And on what basis did they do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:283", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.227040268644743, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We received one hundred dollars a month in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that point did you meet an Ecuadorian counterpart or anyone from the Ecuadorian ministry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. What they did was finally tell us where we were scheduled to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And on what basis did they do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You'd have to ask them. Well, I knew that I had insisted on rural for the whole time. And one of the questions on the peer rating forms was, who would you like to be stationed with? Name three people. And the person that I had named was my roommate in training. And she was scheduled to be with me as my roommate down there, even though she had been originally scheduled for an urban group. But she was an art, had been an art major, and knew a lot about weaving and the Indians that I was assigned to work with knew, did weaving. And so she was helpful in establishing weaving patterns for them, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And her name is?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:285", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.91893363182749, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. What they did was finally tell us where we were scheduled to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And on what basis did they do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You'd have to ask them. Well, I knew that I had insisted on rural for the whole time. And one of the questions on the peer rating forms was, who would you like to be stationed with? Name three people. And the person that I had named was my roommate in training. And she was scheduled to be with me as my roommate down there, even though she had been originally scheduled for an urban group. But she was an art, had been an art major, and knew a lot about weaving and the Indians that I was assigned to work with knew, did weaving. And so she was helpful in establishing weaving patterns for them, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And her name is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Janice Hensley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you were sent then, I don't know much about Ecuador, to a primarily Indian area?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:287", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.798815146474986, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You'd have to ask them. Well, I knew that I had insisted on rural for the whole time. And one of the questions on the peer rating forms was, who would you like to be stationed with? Name three people. And the person that I had named was my roommate in training. And she was scheduled to be with me as my roommate down there, even though she had been originally scheduled for an urban group. But she was an art, had been an art major, and knew a lot about weaving and the Indians that I was assigned to work with knew, did weaving. And so she was helpful in establishing weaving patterns for them, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And her name is?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Janice Hensley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. So you were sent then, I don't know much about Ecuador, to a primarily Indian area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was. We were given in Quito then our assignments and the people we would be with, which we had not known up until that point. And then we were sent by bus. No, by plane. It must have been by plane in our case. At any rate, however we went there, we went to Cuenca, which is a major city, the third largest city, and it's in the south. And then we met the regional rep. He was in charge of the southern Ecuador area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, that's Peace Corps rep?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:291", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 19.628166847499983, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was. We were given in Quito then our assignments and the people we would be with, which we had not known up until that point. And then we were sent by bus. No, by plane. It must have been by plane in our case. At any rate, however we went there, we went to Cuenca, which is a major city, the third largest city, and it's in the south. And then we met the regional rep. He was in charge of the southern Ecuador area."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, that's Peace Corps rep?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps rep. American. And I'm trying to remember his name, but it's slipped me. And then he talked to us, chatted with us for a while, invited us to his house, as I recall. Met his wife and kids. And then we. We were probably met there by the married couple that we were going to replace. We had a two-month overlap. And then they probably took us down to Saraguro."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Saraguro."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Saraguro, which was south of Cuenca, close to the border with Peru. Fairly close. And as I recall, that's the way it happened. They had come up just to meet us. And then we all went down together and they lived in the house of, uh, they rented two rooms in somebody's house. Now this was a big adobe house, which had doors to an outdoor veranda. You didn't go between the rooms, you went out to the veranda and then to the next room. So they had arranged for us to occupy one room. They had another room and then they had a little room, which they used as a kitchen."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok. What was the physical environment of Saraguro?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:299", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.116852381496699, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, exactly. It's like going into Appalachia and finding somebody talking like an Elizabethan. And of course, it took me a while to realize this. I wasn't fluent in Spanish then, but interesting to see the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it make it easier to, I mean, because sometimes the classical form of the language is a little bit slower and there's less slang in it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, in that aspect. For example, in Guayaquil, it was very modern. Guayaquil, my theory is that all these port cities see a lot of change in the language because they have a lot of people from all over the world. And the language in Guayaquil, the Spanish language is terrible. It's got a lot of idioms. Not just idioms, but they drop the S's and they drop the E's, like Cuba and Venezuela, a lot of those. At any rate, it is. It was slower, more precise. The words were different. If we had learned the word for beet or cabbage it, it was different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there are pockets, as I know now, there are pockets in South America of places where they keep really old words. And my theory is that it's mostly in the Andes that had very little progress going through hard to reach places. So things remained like they had been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's the elevation of Saraguro?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:303", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.872657261107037, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there are pockets, as I know now, there are pockets in South America of places where they keep really old words. And my theory is that it's mostly in the Andes that had very little progress going through hard to reach places. So things remained like they had been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What's the elevation of Saraguro?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Close to ten thousand feet, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a little hard. The Belotes, Linda and Jim Belote, were the couple that Jan and I went in to replace. And they were used to going out and visiting the Indians and trying to keep up with the Indians. They said they had had a tough time at first, but all of them went at a mile a minute compared to us. We would trudge along, just panting at the elevation. And I had been a very active person. But it was very difficult for us to keep up at first, but I knew we would get better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, ten thousand feet is."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:305", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.19184140123004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Close to ten thousand feet, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a little hard. The Belotes, Linda and Jim Belote, were the couple that Jan and I went in to replace. And they were used to going out and visiting the Indians and trying to keep up with the Indians. They said they had had a tough time at first, but all of them went at a mile a minute compared to us. We would trudge along, just panting at the elevation. And I had been a very active person. But it was very difficult for us to keep up at first, but I knew we would get better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, ten thousand feet is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The population was most largely Indian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.619557285469185, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The population was most largely Indian?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. The Indian, well, let me break this out. The whites there, quote unquote, were largely Indian blood, but culturally speaking, they were no longer part of any Indian group. As a matter of fact, there seemed to be many Indian groups in Ecuador that weren't part of a tribe or a particular Indian group, but they were definitely poor Indians. But the people who lived in town were whites in Saraguro. I'm talking just about my site. The Indians themselves, and excuse me for using the word Indian, it's more easily understood. It would be very offensive there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they would live outside of town in loosely defined villages with either Quechua or Spanish names. The Indians were, everybody about 30 years old or so was bilingual. The children were bilingual, Spanish and Quechua, that is. And the older people maybe only spoke Quechua. Kichwa is what they call it in Ecuador. They call it Kichwa. And it had, at the time it had at least seven dialects within Ecuador, which is a small country, let alone Peru and Bolivia have all their own dialects. I tried once saying something in Ecuadorian Kichwa to someone in Cusco, which is very far away in Peru, and they looked at me as if I had said something really strange and said, I'm sorry, we don't speak English here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You told as you move out from Saraguro, there are the Indian villages, the Quechuan villages. Are those sort of traditional groupings? In other words, there would be some kind of traditional interrelationships among the people there? In some settings we call a tribal almost, but tribal may be the wrong word."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.68839698385465, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. The Indian, well, let me break this out. The whites there, quote unquote, were largely Indian blood, but culturally speaking, they were no longer part of any Indian group. As a matter of fact, there seemed to be many Indian groups in Ecuador that weren't part of a tribe or a particular Indian group, but they were definitely poor Indians. But the people who lived in town were whites in Saraguro. I'm talking just about my site. The Indians themselves, and excuse me for using the word Indian, it's more easily understood. It would be very offensive there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they would live outside of town in loosely defined villages with either Quechua or Spanish names. The Indians were, everybody about 30 years old or so was bilingual. The children were bilingual, Spanish and Quechua, that is. And the older people maybe only spoke Quechua. Kichwa is what they call it in Ecuador. They call it Kichwa. And it had, at the time it had at least seven dialects within Ecuador, which is a small country, let alone Peru and Bolivia have all their own dialects. I tried once saying something in Ecuadorian Kichwa to someone in Cusco, which is very far away in Peru, and they looked at me as if I had said something really strange and said, I'm sorry, we don't speak English here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You told as you move out from Saraguro, there are the Indian villages, the Quechuan villages. Are those sort of traditional groupings? In other words, there would be some kind of traditional interrelationships among the people there? In some settings we call a tribal almost, but tribal may be the wrong word."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, a clan or. There would be a feeling that this is a village. But as far as physically, there was no way to say this was a village because there was no central post office. There was no store. There was just a bunch of farmers who lived in a house and owned a certain amount of land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But there was an extended traditional relationship among those people?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:313", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.875996648727389, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But they would live outside of town in loosely defined villages with either Quechua or Spanish names. The Indians were, everybody about 30 years old or so was bilingual. The children were bilingual, Spanish and Quechua, that is. And the older people maybe only spoke Quechua. Kichwa is what they call it in Ecuador. They call it Kichwa. And it had, at the time it had at least seven dialects within Ecuador, which is a small country, let alone Peru and Bolivia have all their own dialects. I tried once saying something in Ecuadorian Kichwa to someone in Cusco, which is very far away in Peru, and they looked at me as if I had said something really strange and said, I'm sorry, we don't speak English here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You told as you move out from Saraguro, there are the Indian villages, the Quechuan villages. Are those sort of traditional groupings? In other words, there would be some kind of traditional interrelationships among the people there? In some settings we call a tribal almost, but tribal may be the wrong word."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, a clan or. There would be a feeling that this is a village. But as far as physically, there was no way to say this was a village because there was no central post office. There was no store. There was just a bunch of farmers who lived in a house and owned a certain amount of land."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But there was an extended traditional relationship among those people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is different than those who lived in town?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.328390924354801, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which is different than those who lived in town?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you could. There were people who lived in Canicapa who were related to people in Kishkinchear, but they, and they were all, they all knew and they all wore the same clothes. They all knew that they were traditional Saraguro Indians. But they understood where their communities were. It's very hard to see any, I mean, see a differentiation in where one began and the next one started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the couple who you were replacing had been there for about a year and a half, two years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.475989915949778, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you could. There were people who lived in Canicapa who were related to people in Kishkinchear, but they, and they were all, they all knew and they all wore the same clothes. They all knew that they were traditional Saraguro Indians. But they understood where their communities were. It's very hard to see any, I mean, see a differentiation in where one began and the next one started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the couple who you were replacing had been there for about a year and a half, two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably two years. Jim had been there first, I believe, and then Linda came and then they got married, which was against Peace Corps rules. But at some point they got married. And they'd been there probably two years by then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were they the only Peace Corps volunteers in Saraguro?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:321", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.639988795499754, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And you could. There were people who lived in Canicapa who were related to people in Kishkinchear, but they, and they were all, they all knew and they all wore the same clothes. They all knew that they were traditional Saraguro Indians. But they understood where their communities were. It's very hard to see any, I mean, see a differentiation in where one began and the next one started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now the couple who you were replacing had been there for about a year and a half, two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably two years. Jim had been there first, I believe, and then Linda came and then they got married, which was against Peace Corps rules. But at some point they got married. And they'd been there probably two years by then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were they the only Peace Corps volunteers in Saraguro?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were when I was there. There had been one before or at the same time as Jim. I don't remember anything because, I don't know about them because I'd never met them. But we were, Jan and I were the fourth and fifth volunteers in that site. And I think they stopped having volunteers after a while, and then they began to get electricity and more. I heard recently that it was a party site. And my roommate and I had a very difficult time figuring out how you could have a party with warm beer and with no electricity. Certainly not a party site when we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So moving into the situation, did you look completely to the couple to define what your role is supposed to be?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.555541722839202, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were when I was there. There had been one before or at the same time as Jim. I don't remember anything because, I don't know about them because I'd never met them. But we were, Jan and I were the fourth and fifth volunteers in that site. And I think they stopped having volunteers after a while, and then they began to get electricity and more. I heard recently that it was a party site. And my roommate and I had a very difficult time figuring out how you could have a party with warm beer and with no electricity. Certainly not a party site when we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So moving into the situation, did you look completely to the couple to define what your role is supposed to be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty much, yeah. And they, on the other hand, were a little reluctant to impose roles on us. And they were, uh, they wanted us to find our own way and sometimes wouldn't tell us things that we needed to know, or we felt we needed to know, because they wanted us to make our own way. For instance, when I said the language hadn't changed in four hundred years, also, the church hadn't changed a whole lot in four hundred years. We were dealing with the Catholic Church at the time of the Inquisition. I'm not, don't laugh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because a woman up in Cuenca, north of us, had been stoned because the priest told the local people to go stone her because she was a witch. And they had. And when we were in Saraguro, there was a Protestant missionary doctor, American, with missionary nurses living a few doors from us. Everything was a few doors from us. And there was a big argument between whether he could convert people in a town that was all Catholic. And the priest hated him, of course, for trying to take away his flock because the priest was the demigod of the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was an American missionary?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:327", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.506157469821336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty much, yeah. And they, on the other hand, were a little reluctant to impose roles on us. And they were, uh, they wanted us to find our own way and sometimes wouldn't tell us things that we needed to know, or we felt we needed to know, because they wanted us to make our own way. For instance, when I said the language hadn't changed in four hundred years, also, the church hadn't changed a whole lot in four hundred years. We were dealing with the Catholic Church at the time of the Inquisition. I'm not, don't laugh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because a woman up in Cuenca, north of us, had been stoned because the priest told the local people to go stone her because she was a witch. And they had. And when we were in Saraguro, there was a Protestant missionary doctor, American, with missionary nurses living a few doors from us. Everything was a few doors from us. And there was a big argument between whether he could convert people in a town that was all Catholic. And the priest hated him, of course, for trying to take away his flock because the priest was the demigod of the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was an American missionary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "American missionary, doctor. And he was a very good guy. Dr. Daos was his name. And he was a very kind person, the way you would want a missionary to be or a doctor to be or a human being to be. The priest, on the other hand, was none of those things. And it was always, I was always a little nervous about being in a place where I could, somebody could tell the Indians to go stone me and they might do it. I mean, that was kind of frightening."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you, go ahead. Sorry."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.340174966468151, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because a woman up in Cuenca, north of us, had been stoned because the priest told the local people to go stone her because she was a witch. And they had. And when we were in Saraguro, there was a Protestant missionary doctor, American, with missionary nurses living a few doors from us. Everything was a few doors from us. And there was a big argument between whether he could convert people in a town that was all Catholic. And the priest hated him, of course, for trying to take away his flock because the priest was the demigod of the village."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And he was an American missionary?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "American missionary, doctor. And he was a very good guy. Dr. Daos was his name. And he was a very kind person, the way you would want a missionary to be or a doctor to be or a human being to be. The priest, on the other hand, was none of those things. And it was always, I was always a little nervous about being in a place where I could, somebody could tell the Indians to go stone me and they might do it. I mean, that was kind of frightening."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you, go ahead. Sorry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My roommate said, I'm not religious, I'm not faking it. I'm not going to church. I said, well, I discussed this with the Belotes. I said, how about if I tell him that I'm an Episcopalian? I had actually mentally left the church before that, but I was willing to say that. But I am on the verge of considering becoming a Catholic, so that should make me a little safer or make us a little safer. And they said, that'll probably do. And so we went. The Belotes took us to meet the important people in town, and they took us to meet the priest. And they told me that he's going to ask me some questions probably. So he started asking questions, and I was able to tell him what the Trinity was and I was, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, a theological question?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:335", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.462517100779356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I mean, he asked what we felt and what we believed, and he wanted to know whether we were going to be on the doctor's side or his too. And Jan's language, it was not good at all. So, you know, I was answering the questions. So then he asked me the all- important question, which I didn't realize at the time and I hadn't been prepared for it. Well, who's more important, Mary or Jesus? So I realized I was treading on thin ice here, and I said, well. I thought, well, let's define our terms. OK, well, Mary was the mother of Jesus. And the priest said, yes, so she's the most important. And so I said, OK. And so I guess I passed the interview."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's fascinating."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I felt that it was necessary for me to go to church, for one of us, and Jan wouldn't do it, to go to church every Sunday, even though I didn't believe any of the religion. And fake it and sit there and listen to what he said because I wanted advance notice if he was going to turn everybody on to us and say, go out there and stone those people. I was going to sit and hear it first."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There must have been all kinds of inhibitions on the way you dress then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, um, we were told that it was unlikely they would accept women in pants. They would think we were trying to be men. So we compromised and wore culottes. And sort of a pant skirt. And we brought several pair and that's what we wore nearly all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were properly covered, I mean."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.291685667532617, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I felt that it was necessary for me to go to church, for one of us, and Jan wouldn't do it, to go to church every Sunday, even though I didn't believe any of the religion. And fake it and sit there and listen to what he said because I wanted advance notice if he was going to turn everybody on to us and say, go out there and stone those people. I was going to sit and hear it first."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There must have been all kinds of inhibitions on the way you dress then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, um, we were told that it was unlikely they would accept women in pants. They would think we were trying to be men. So we compromised and wore culottes. And sort of a pant skirt. And we brought several pair and that's what we wore nearly all the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were properly covered, I mean."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, of course. Well, it was cold. You wouldn't be sleeveless anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wouldn't be walking around in a T-shirt."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:341", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.002081071027922, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, of course. Well, it was cold. You wouldn't be sleeveless anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You wouldn't be walking around in a T-shirt."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, we didn't ever wear T-shirts. I wore a regular dress shirt like you have on shirts, medium length sleeve. And Jan wore something similar. And the climate there, you could wear wool year-round. When it rained, it was very cold at ten thousand feet, even though it's right near the equator. And it got cold inside. It was just wet and cold. You know how a damp cold is?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when it was not raining, it was dry. It was sunny. It was lovely. It was just delightful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you've been there a couple of weeks, the married couple was still there. Did you begin to get a sense that there was a job there for you or there was a role for you to play?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:343", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.002312301142135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, we didn't ever wear T-shirts. I wore a regular dress shirt like you have on shirts, medium length sleeve. And Jan wore something similar. And the climate there, you could wear wool year-round. When it rained, it was very cold at ten thousand feet, even though it's right near the equator. And it got cold inside. It was just wet and cold. You know how a damp cold is?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when it was not raining, it was dry. It was sunny. It was lovely. It was just delightful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you've been there a couple of weeks, the married couple was still there. Did you begin to get a sense that there was a job there for you or there was a role for you to play?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were trying to work on what role we were going to play."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you doing that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:345", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.113680334602371, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And when it was not raining, it was dry. It was sunny. It was lovely. It was just delightful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you've been there a couple of weeks, the married couple was still there. Did you begin to get a sense that there was a job there for you or there was a role for you to play?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were trying to work on what role we were going to play."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you doing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How was I doing that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Trying to figure out the role?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.015200371780413, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were trying to work on what role we were going to play."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were you doing that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How was I doing that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Trying to figure out the role?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, listening to what Linda and Jim said. Linda was talking to the women in the communities, and she had started embroidery classes for the girls and cooking classes for the women. Now I'm talking in the indigenous communities, not in the center of town. And they worked with the Andean Mission, which was another. The Alliance for Progress was also started by Kennedy, which put some money into South America, and the Andean Mission was the Ecuador, Ecuadorian branch of that. So hired by the Ecuadorian government with this money was Colon, who was the head of the Andean Mission in Saraguro. He had a secretary. There was a home economist who was supposed to be dealing with the Indian women and helping them. She hated Indians. She wanted this for the prestige. But the only time she would get anywhere physically close to an Indian as if she was having her picture taken. There was a doctor and there was a dentist and there was the chauffeur. And so we were assigned to work with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were all Ecuadorian?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:357", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.1368192040177, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then there were very few foods that grew locally. And the ones that grew locally we would help try to figure out different ways to use them in cooking. I don't know if these people, I mean, once in a rural community, people know how they like things. They've done it for millennia that way. They probably aren't all that thrilled about having somebody come in and tell them how to make a different kind of omelet. But they wanted to get to know us. They thought we were all, not just me, everyone, that we were all interesting. As far as where we came from, they saw we had white faces and they knew we were from further away than Riobamba. They asked where the, what was the United States? And they said, oh, that's even further away than Riobamba, isn't it? Which isn't as far as Quito."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any sense of the Peace Corps? If you said, I'm a Peace Corps volunteer, I mean, in Spanish, would?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the community?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they knew. We were Peace Corps volunteers. That's all they knew, is the four faces. Those were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it didn't have any meaning beyond that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.152021337797445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the community?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they knew. We were Peace Corps volunteers. That's all they knew, is the four faces. Those were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it didn't have any meaning beyond that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it meant nothing. No, no. Um, they knew we weren't, we didn't speak Spanish very well, but then a lot of them didn't speak Spanish very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did you begin to learn Quechua?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:361", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.168912597552715, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they knew. We were Peace Corps volunteers. That's all they knew, is the four faces. Those were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it didn't have any meaning beyond that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it meant nothing. No, no. Um, they knew we weren't, we didn't speak Spanish very well, but then a lot of them didn't speak Spanish very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now did you begin to learn Quechua?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was trying to pick some up. I had learned to say good morning or how are you? And I learned to say, when you go up to somebody's house in the countryside, because they might not be sitting in front of their house, you yell out. Can I come in? Hello! Can I come in? You don't just walk up because nobody could be there and you could just walk up and walk into their house. It's very impolite. So I learned how to say that in Quechua and hear the answer to it. One or two things, but not too many."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were people pleased?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:373", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.873121564863673, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't remember having any. We could have gone to Dr. Daos, who was the missionary doctor. But we were told by the Belotes that if we stay away from him, we'd be better off, because we wanted to be non-political. We were, as a Peace Corps volunteers, not supposed to align ourselves with political parties or religious groups. And there was a conflict going on with the Protestant missionary and the Catholic priest. And it would be better if we tried not to. But of course, if we had a really serious problem, we could go there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Did you have a Peace Corps medical kit where you could?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure we must have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously, your health generally was, other than fleas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had good health. Jan had a series of problems which they. She had ear infections and I think she had some gastric problems, too, at some point. And they did fly her, actually the week of my wedding, they flew her to Panama for these ear infections. But we, I don't know what we were supposed to do if we were sick all the time. I don't remember. I mean, I'm sure they told us, it's just that I was generally fairly healthy, so it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A related matter. How did you get food? I mean, each day?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:375", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.6368017387374145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure we must have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Obviously, your health generally was, other than fleas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had good health. Jan had a series of problems which they. She had ear infections and I think she had some gastric problems, too, at some point. And they did fly her, actually the week of my wedding, they flew her to Panama for these ear infections. But we, I don't know what we were supposed to do if we were sick all the time. I don't remember. I mean, I'm sure they told us, it's just that I was generally fairly healthy, so it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A related matter. How did you get food? I mean, each day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we bought food in the local market. And then when we went into Loja, which wasn't very often at first, but later became once every two weeks, we could bring back hamburgers and hot dogs or what amounted to that. Now, we had no refrigeration, so we learned that hamburgers will keep two days and, I mean, ground beef, and hot dogs would keep three days. And Linda had made, or Linda and Jim had made an oven out of a kerosene can that you put on top of your Coleman stove. We had a little Coleman stove. And you could buy the gas for the stove in town. And they put the oven up on top of it and would make sometimes things like cakes, but most often pizza. And as I say, there weren't very many things in town. What we did was bring back the hamburger and hot dog for a couple of days, and then we bought peanut butter in Loja and brought it back and canned tuna fish, which would keep forever, and oatmeal. And I figured that we got all of our protein that we got from those three things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you get eggs and bread locally?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.485335265263794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had good health. Jan had a series of problems which they. She had ear infections and I think she had some gastric problems, too, at some point. And they did fly her, actually the week of my wedding, they flew her to Panama for these ear infections. But we, I don't know what we were supposed to do if we were sick all the time. I don't remember. I mean, I'm sure they told us, it's just that I was generally fairly healthy, so it didn't."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A related matter. How did you get food? I mean, each day?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we bought food in the local market. And then when we went into Loja, which wasn't very often at first, but later became once every two weeks, we could bring back hamburgers and hot dogs or what amounted to that. Now, we had no refrigeration, so we learned that hamburgers will keep two days and, I mean, ground beef, and hot dogs would keep three days. And Linda had made, or Linda and Jim had made an oven out of a kerosene can that you put on top of your Coleman stove. We had a little Coleman stove. And you could buy the gas for the stove in town. And they put the oven up on top of it and would make sometimes things like cakes, but most often pizza. And as I say, there weren't very many things in town. What we did was bring back the hamburger and hot dog for a couple of days, and then we bought peanut butter in Loja and brought it back and canned tuna fish, which would keep forever, and oatmeal. And I figured that we got all of our protein that we got from those three things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you get eggs and bread locally?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You could get eggs. Yeah, you could get bread. We didn't really like the bread. It was, uh, a lot of people do now, but it was like pita bread. And not loaf bread."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any kind of personal servant or helper?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:381", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.253500327486165, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You could get eggs. Yeah, you could get bread. We didn't really like the bread. It was, uh, a lot of people do now, but it was like pita bread. And not loaf bread."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any kind of personal servant or helper?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Actually, we did in a sense. We sent our laundry out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were local people who would go down to the river and beat the clothes on a rock, and it was so inexpensive. We never spent our hundred dollars a month. We couldn't. We couldn't spend it. There wasn't enough to buy to spend it on. And whereas people in Guayaquil couldn't live on a hundred dollars a month. They were very hard put to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, I mean, obviously you weren't working seven days a week, but did you begin?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:383", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.170555919429072, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Actually, we did in a sense. We sent our laundry out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were local people who would go down to the river and beat the clothes on a rock, and it was so inexpensive. We never spent our hundred dollars a month. We couldn't. We couldn't spend it. There wasn't enough to buy to spend it on. And whereas people in Guayaquil couldn't live on a hundred dollars a month. They were very hard put to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, I mean, obviously you weren't working seven days a week, but did you begin?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you were? OK. Any socializing, recreation, did you begin to get to know Ecuadorians on an unofficial basis, you know, just as friends?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:385", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.189506577143412, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There were local people who would go down to the river and beat the clothes on a rock, and it was so inexpensive. We never spent our hundred dollars a month. We couldn't. We couldn't spend it. There wasn't enough to buy to spend it on. And whereas people in Guayaquil couldn't live on a hundred dollars a month. They were very hard put to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, I mean, obviously you weren't working seven days a week, but did you begin?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you were? OK. Any socializing, recreation, did you begin to get to know Ecuadorians on an unofficial basis, you know, just as friends?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did that. Let me finish my last project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, that's fine."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 12.36168563799822, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unrelated to your work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of the whites in town might have been typical Ecuadorians who would say things. They call it in the Spanish language piropo. It's a compliment, but basically it's what a guy would say who's leaning against the building, watching a girl walk by and they make comments about her. And in the culture, it's very hard for us to understand because we don't like that. I mean, women don't like that. But in the culture, a lot of women do like that. They look forward to guys saying nice things about them and the guys think that, I mean, it's perfectly OK. Most of us, as young Peace Corps volunteers, saw it as semi-threatening. Now I don't remember a lot of this going on in town, but there may have been one or two guys who might say something, but I really doubt it. It would go on in the big cities where we didn't know people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But yourself, you don't recall being uncomfortable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in our site. No. Not in our site. And I also started a cooking class. I didn't realize what the people wanted was this fancy cake, like wedding cake making. But they said repostería, and I thought that meant just cooking. So I started a cooking class showing them, for the whites in town, which had never been done, because nobody really wanted. The people before me wanted to work with the Indians, and so did Jan. And but these people were also Ecuadorians, and they were also really curious about these new foreigners in town and wanted to get to meet us. So I started an English class and a cooking class. The cooking class was just for girls, but the best person in the English class was a young Indian boy and he was already bilingual. So learning a third language was a little easier for him than learning a second one for the young Spanish speaking people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On any given day during this period, how would you decide what you're going to do with your time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:401", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 6.619364985182987, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in our site. No. Not in our site. And I also started a cooking class. I didn't realize what the people wanted was this fancy cake, like wedding cake making. But they said repostería, and I thought that meant just cooking. So I started a cooking class showing them, for the whites in town, which had never been done, because nobody really wanted. The people before me wanted to work with the Indians, and so did Jan. And but these people were also Ecuadorians, and they were also really curious about these new foreigners in town and wanted to get to meet us. So I started an English class and a cooking class. The cooking class was just for girls, but the best person in the English class was a young Indian boy and he was already bilingual. So learning a third language was a little easier for him than learning a second one for the young Spanish speaking people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On any given day during this period, how would you decide what you're going to do with your time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the Indian mission had a routine that they would go to Lagunas on Monday and Kishkincheer on Tuesday and Canicapi on Wednesday. And we would go with a home economist and we worked at that five days a week. But then the rest of the time we were, we were on our own. I would say as far as a community development person goes, it was working. I mean, you're out. You're not holed up doing nothing. You're out with the people all the time. Um, and that's the other times when we would arrange the other the lessons, the cooking classes and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it tiring? I mean, it sounds like it sounds to me like you're on seven days a week."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Emotionally it was tiring. At first, when you're in new situation, you don't have any of your support systems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the altitude doesn't help you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:405", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.468351833559243, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Emotionally it was tiring. At first, when you're in new situation, you don't have any of your support systems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And the altitude doesn't help you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don't remember that as being so much of a problem if I wasn't hiking. But I'm sure there were aspects of it. The fleas were the worst thing. I would get. I would count them. And when I got up to 150, I'd stop because it was too depressing. And they were, the kind with me, the kind of flea bites I had to scratch until they were open, and even then I kept scratching them. I probably have scars on my ankles from that. When we went into Loja, they had public showers where for the equivalent of twelve American cents, you could take a hot shower for as long as you wanted. And that's where I'd count my flea bites and get rid of them I hope, the fleas. And that was just pure bliss, because back in Saraguro, there was a cold shower outside at ten thousand feet where it's cold. The only time either Jan or I used that was after a hike and I came in and I was really hot and I thought, I'll hop into that while I'm still really hot. And I did it once and I would never do it again.\n\nSo what we did was we bought the largest basin that you can buy for washing clothes in. It was about this big around, about three feet across. And we would take turns taking a bath. One of us would sit in it cross legged like a Hindu priest or something, and the other would pour warm water heated on the Coleman stove over the top of the bathing person. Needless to say, this is not a daily ritual. Took quite a lot of time and gas just to heat up the water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it a wrench when the married couple finally left?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I think we were ready for them to go and be on our own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was two months they were?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:409", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.405372634023758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I think we were ready for them to go and be on our own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was two months they were?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and we thought we would miss them. We knew we would miss them and we did. And not to have somebody around who is completely fluent in the local languages and who understood what was going on a better level than we did. I mean, we didn't, we didn't understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone from Peace Corps come out to visit during this transition time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the director came down one time. Not the director of the country, but the local, the regional rep, he came down one time. And we had had, I don't know how the Peace Corps grapevine works, but it's faster than lightning, and we had advance notice that he was coming. So I don't know what we did, made a pizza or something. He said, that's OK, I'll take you out to lunch, but there's no place to go out to lunch. And I don't think he stayed overnight. He had a jeep, so he could have gone home. His home was five hours away, so he didn't come very often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, might that have been a problem if you had a male staying overnight with you? Would that be noted?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:411", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.89485848224862, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, and we thought we would miss them. We knew we would miss them and we did. And not to have somebody around who is completely fluent in the local languages and who understood what was going on a better level than we did. I mean, we didn't, we didn't understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did anyone from Peace Corps come out to visit during this transition time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the director came down one time. Not the director of the country, but the local, the regional rep, he came down one time. And we had had, I don't know how the Peace Corps grapevine works, but it's faster than lightning, and we had advance notice that he was coming. So I don't know what we did, made a pizza or something. He said, that's OK, I'll take you out to lunch, but there's no place to go out to lunch. And I don't think he stayed overnight. He had a jeep, so he could have gone home. His home was five hours away, so he didn't come very often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, might that have been a problem if you had a male staying overnight with you? Would that be noted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By whom?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anyone in the village? Anyone?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:413", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.438731646942911, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the director came down one time. Not the director of the country, but the local, the regional rep, he came down one time. And we had had, I don't know how the Peace Corps grapevine works, but it's faster than lightning, and we had advance notice that he was coming. So I don't know what we did, made a pizza or something. He said, that's OK, I'll take you out to lunch, but there's no place to go out to lunch. And I don't think he stayed overnight. He had a jeep, so he could have gone home. His home was five hours away, so he didn't come very often."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, might that have been a problem if you had a male staying overnight with you? Would that be noted?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By whom?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anyone in the village? Anyone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, oh, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Inquisition crowd?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:415", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.0430351632699, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By whom?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Anyone in the village? Anyone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, oh, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Inquisition crowd?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I don't know what they would have said. I mean, it was probably like in Elizabethan times in England. You didn't talk about it, but it got done. I mean, we didn't have any males come and sleep overnight in either innocently or not innocently. But I'm sure that among the whites that went, that sort of thing happened. People got pregnant who weren't supposed to. But I don't know how it would have been viewed, but we wouldn't. We wouldn't have had him in the same room. Well, we rented a room from this family, and if somebody had stayed over, they would have stayed in the other room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the meantime, what's happening with your engagement?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:417", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.714483514744334, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, oh, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Inquisition crowd?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I don't know what they would have said. I mean, it was probably like in Elizabethan times in England. You didn't talk about it, but it got done. I mean, we didn't have any males come and sleep overnight in either innocently or not innocently. But I'm sure that among the whites that went, that sort of thing happened. People got pregnant who weren't supposed to. But I don't know how it would have been viewed, but we wouldn't. We wouldn't have had him in the same room. Well, we rented a room from this family, and if somebody had stayed over, they would have stayed in the other room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the meantime, what's happening with your engagement?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the meantime, I was getting a letter a day and writing at least a letter a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you kept those letters?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:425", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.1856173064233095, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They all knew Mike, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because he'd been in the training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were all surprised that I was still in touch with him and that we were getting married and that we were an item at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So how long was the visit all together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A couple of weeks, I guess. Or maybe one week? I can't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to leave time coming or vacation time coming?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:427", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.984019229359233, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were all surprised that I was still in touch with him and that we were getting married and that we were an item at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So how long was the visit all together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A couple of weeks, I guess. Or maybe one week? I can't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to leave time coming or vacation time coming?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And we had thought maybe to go down to Peru because I'd always wanted to go to Peru, but we didn't have enough money or time to do all of that. So we thought, well, he told me to apply to Acción. Acción didn't want to be in the position of having recruited someone who was an active Peace Corps volunteer. So he said I had to apply and tell them why I wanted to work with them and get accepted. So I did all of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Acción being in Washington?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:429", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.871132477065814, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A couple of weeks, I guess. Or maybe one week? I can't remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to leave time coming or vacation time coming?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And we had thought maybe to go down to Peru because I'd always wanted to go to Peru, but we didn't have enough money or time to do all of that. So we thought, well, he told me to apply to Acción. Acción didn't want to be in the position of having recruited someone who was an active Peace Corps volunteer. So he said I had to apply and tell them why I wanted to work with them and get accepted. So I did all of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Acción being in Washington?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Acción in Venezuela."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you were flying directly to?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:431", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.74570275229535, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And we had thought maybe to go down to Peru because I'd always wanted to go to Peru, but we didn't have enough money or time to do all of that. So we thought, well, he told me to apply to Acción. Acción didn't want to be in the position of having recruited someone who was an active Peace Corps volunteer. So he said I had to apply and tell them why I wanted to work with them and get accepted. So I did all of that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Acción being in Washington?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Acción in Venezuela."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you were flying directly to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Acción in Venezuela in Caracas, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And with information provided by Mike."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:433", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.717447502550387, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, Acción in Venezuela."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so you were flying directly to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Acción in Venezuela in Caracas, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And with information provided by Mike."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And so then he left and we had plans to get married if I got, assuming I got accepted, I mean, we didn't see any reason why they wouldn't accept me. I was a little nervous about that. What happens if they don't, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point, how long had you been in Ecuador?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:435", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.686052780611542, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Acción in Venezuela in Caracas, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And with information provided by Mike."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And so then he left and we had plans to get married if I got, assuming I got accepted, I mean, we didn't see any reason why they wouldn't accept me. I was a little nervous about that. What happens if they don't, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point, how long had you been in Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's all? OK."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:437", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.651169756235046, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And so then he left and we had plans to get married if I got, assuming I got accepted, I mean, we didn't see any reason why they wouldn't accept me. I was a little nervous about that. What happens if they don't, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At this point, how long had you been in Ecuador?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's all? OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Two or three months. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Applied to Acción."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:439", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.723521951372273, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Two months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's all? OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Two or three months. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Applied to Acción."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I'm trying to think, where do we go from here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, what happened? I mean, you applied."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:441", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 11.915024390413636, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Two or three months. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Applied to Acción."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I'm trying to think, where do we go from here?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, well, what happened? I mean, you applied."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I applied. They accepted me and we made plans to get married. Uh, we sent out invitations, but we only sent them to Peace Corps volunteers and not in our parents' name, which was unheard of in those days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But at that point, what did you, what was your relationship to Peace Corps and what did you say and what happened?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:449", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.539589072418284, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was going to stay. Oh well, I thought I was going to stay. I think now I was going to stay. I'm not sure whether I was going to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it seems to me that it ended up that you were really getting ready to marry."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I think maybe we had decided. I think maybe Mike had said that if I didn't get hired by Acción that I could go there, I mean, get married, go there and then find a job doing teaching English or something. I wasn't at all sure about that because I hadn't traveled in Latin America. I didn't know there were jobs everywhere teaching English. But he did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you get married?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guayaquil. Big port city that's the largest city in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was in Ecuador. Did family come?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:451", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.599543413798093, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I think maybe we had decided. I think maybe Mike had said that if I didn't get hired by Acción that I could go there, I mean, get married, go there and then find a job doing teaching English or something. I wasn't at all sure about that because I hadn't traveled in Latin America. I didn't know there were jobs everywhere teaching English. But he did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you get married?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guayaquil. Big port city that's the largest city in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was in Ecuador. Did family come?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the only people who came were Peace Corps volunteers. Some Peace Corps staff. And my, the lady that I rented the room from in Saraguro came down. She had relatives to stay with. And it turns out that one of the guys in our group, one of Mike's roommates when he was in training, worked for an Episcopal missionary priest. And so we decided that would be the best way. I would rather have gotten married in Saraguro, but it wouldn't be by the Catholic priest that everybody hated, and it shouldn't probably be by the missionary. I think he was out of town anyway, the missionary. I might have considered that. But the only way anybody would come to our very remote site, you know, the only way people would come to our wedding would be if I went to a major city. And more people worked in Guayaquil. Quito is much nicer, but we went. I stayed with two of the girls from my group who were roommates in Guayaquil. We had the reception in their apartment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at that point when you came up to Guayaquil to get married, you left Saraguro."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:453", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.777270459775659, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Guayaquil. Big port city that's the largest city in Ecuador."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it was in Ecuador. Did family come?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the only people who came were Peace Corps volunteers. Some Peace Corps staff. And my, the lady that I rented the room from in Saraguro came down. She had relatives to stay with. And it turns out that one of the guys in our group, one of Mike's roommates when he was in training, worked for an Episcopal missionary priest. And so we decided that would be the best way. I would rather have gotten married in Saraguro, but it wouldn't be by the Catholic priest that everybody hated, and it shouldn't probably be by the missionary. I think he was out of town anyway, the missionary. I might have considered that. But the only way anybody would come to our very remote site, you know, the only way people would come to our wedding would be if I went to a major city. And more people worked in Guayaquil. Quito is much nicer, but we went. I stayed with two of the girls from my group who were roommates in Guayaquil. We had the reception in their apartment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at that point when you came up to Guayaquil to get married, you left Saraguro."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, they knew your assignment was over and?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:455", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.0858560664174, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, the only people who came were Peace Corps volunteers. Some Peace Corps staff. And my, the lady that I rented the room from in Saraguro came down. She had relatives to stay with. And it turns out that one of the guys in our group, one of Mike's roommates when he was in training, worked for an Episcopal missionary priest. And so we decided that would be the best way. I would rather have gotten married in Saraguro, but it wouldn't be by the Catholic priest that everybody hated, and it shouldn't probably be by the missionary. I think he was out of town anyway, the missionary. I might have considered that. But the only way anybody would come to our very remote site, you know, the only way people would come to our wedding would be if I went to a major city. And more people worked in Guayaquil. Quito is much nicer, but we went. I stayed with two of the girls from my group who were roommates in Guayaquil. We had the reception in their apartment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So at that point when you came up to Guayaquil to get married, you left Saraguro."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, they knew your assignment was over and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they knew I was quitting one way or another."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you weren't going to be coming back. Did Jan stay on?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:457", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.428728962686, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, they knew your assignment was over and?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, they knew I was quitting one way or another."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you weren't going to be coming back. Did Jan stay on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jan stayed on. She was only there a couple of months more before physical infirmities caught up with her, the constant ear infection and other things too that I don't remember. She got another roommate for a while and I don't remember. I mean, I didn't hear much about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But in effect, at that point, your connection with Ecuador and Peace Corps was kind of ended and you moved on to other things, Venezuela and lots more after that. But you, after that time, did you work for the Peace Corps at all? Or did just Mike?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:461", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.4675666206, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jan stayed on. She was only there a couple of months more before physical infirmities caught up with her, the constant ear infection and other things too that I don't remember. She got another roommate for a while and I don't remember. I mean, I didn't hear much about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But in effect, at that point, your connection with Ecuador and Peace Corps was kind of ended and you moved on to other things, Venezuela and lots more after that. But you, after that time, did you work for the Peace Corps at all? Or did just Mike?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't work for the Peace Corps again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my husband became a desk officer for five countries in 1970, I guess it was, in D.C. And then in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But he was never a volunteer."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:463", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.186185134, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn't work for the Peace Corps again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my husband became a desk officer for five countries in 1970, I guess it was, in D.C. And then in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But he was never a volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Trainee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was just competent."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:465", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.09576126, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And my husband became a desk officer for five countries in 1970, I guess it was, in D.C. And then in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But he was never a volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Trainee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was just competent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he became acting director of Latin America at the end of the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the seventies?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:467", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.1064014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Trainee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He was just competent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he became acting director of Latin America at the end of the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the seventies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were. We were allowed five years on staff, no more than five, because of the way Peace Corps was set up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In, up and out."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:469", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 22.340446, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he became acting director of Latin America at the end of the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the seventies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were. We were allowed five years on staff, no more than five, because of the way Peace Corps was set up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In, up and out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And he was desk officer for a couple of years. By then we had two children, one born in Peru, and then we went back to Peru. And he was director of Peru for two years and we had our third daughter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peace Corps director?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:471", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.04494, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were. We were allowed five years on staff, no more than five, because of the way Peace Corps was set up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In, up and out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And he was desk officer for a couple of years. By then we had two children, one born in Peru, and then we went back to Peru. And he was director of Peru for two years and we had our third daughter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peace Corps director?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps director. Yeah, yeah. Peru didn't accept him as overall director. And we happened to have taken a vacation in September of '73 down to Chile, which I'd always wanted to visit. They had a coup. I was pregnant. I was having contractions. I thought, what happens? I have a history of dropping the babies early and I was a little concerned. But they, Peace Corps had contingency plans. And there are coups and there are coups. We were in Peru during the '68 coup, the Belaúnde coup, where the military knocked him out. They put him on a plane to the United States, where he lived in a penthouse in Chevy Chase and taught at universities. But Allende coup in Chile was a whole different kettle of fish. We heard machine guns every night. There was a curfew. And we heard in the day we'd go out and we'd see blood on the streets. It was a very frightening time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you have the baby in Chile or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00178:475", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 18.573999999999998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Peace Corps director. Yeah, yeah. Peru didn't accept him as overall director. And we happened to have taken a vacation in September of '73 down to Chile, which I'd always wanted to visit. They had a coup. I was pregnant. I was having contractions. I thought, what happens? I have a history of dropping the babies early and I was a little concerned. But they, Peace Corps had contingency plans. And there are coups and there are coups. We were in Peru during the '68 coup, the Belaúnde coup, where the military knocked him out. They put him on a plane to the United States, where he lived in a penthouse in Chevy Chase and taught at universities. But Allende coup in Chile was a whole different kettle of fish. We heard machine guns every night. There was a curfew. And we heard in the day we'd go out and we'd see blood on the streets. It was a very frightening time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you have the baby in Chile or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I ended up able, I got the first plane that we were allowed to be on by the government to go north. I walked out to the airport and I was so afraid that these guys, 17 year olds, they looked like, with machine guns and they were very stern looking. And I was so afraid they might shoot me that when they looked at me and asked me something, I'd put my hands up in the air, like in the Westerns. But we got on the plane and got up to Peru, and I was so glad. At that point, we had a couple of maids. We had a maid and a cook. And I had asked a Peace Corps couple who were in Lima to stay with my kids while I was gone. And I was so glad because I knew the maid would have frightened them to death about their parents being in Chile."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Anything else about the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the last."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your daughter? Go ahead."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 39.79081356406764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us how you felt about being part of history in the making."}, {"role": "user", "content": "History in the making. To be honest with you, I didn't really think about it that way at the time. This was more going out to do the job, working the space program. There was the unique aspects of it, dealing with the Russians. Here I am, I'm going overseas to Russia, a completely foreign country, and I'm not doing it on just a short thing, I'm going out there for six weeks on my first time ever. So that was a little daunting. What in the world am I going to do out there for six weeks? Just how am I going to get by? So a lot more of it was a learning experience. What is it really like out here in Russia? I didn't really think much about the history at the time, maybe because by the time I went out, Norm had already been up there for two months. It was kind of accepted by then. I think for me the history thing was back on 63 when we had the approach and then on 71 when we actually had the first docking. That was more the historical event."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where were you with 63? You were here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "63 I was here, and 71 I was here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were in--"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 44.212015071186265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "History in the making. To be honest with you, I didn't really think about it that way at the time. This was more going out to do the job, working the space program. There was the unique aspects of it, dealing with the Russians. Here I am, I'm going overseas to Russia, a completely foreign country, and I'm not doing it on just a short thing, I'm going out there for six weeks on my first time ever. So that was a little daunting. What in the world am I going to do out there for six weeks? Just how am I going to get by? So a lot more of it was a learning experience. What is it really like out here in Russia? I didn't really think much about the history at the time, maybe because by the time I went out, Norm had already been up there for two months. It was kind of accepted by then. I think for me the history thing was back on 63 when we had the approach and then on 71 when we actually had the first docking. That was more the historical event."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And where were you with 63? You were here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "63 I was here, and 71 I was here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were in--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "--in the control center as a groundhog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And watching it all."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 49.12446119020696, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "63 I was here, and 71 I was here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were in--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "--in the control center as a groundhog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And watching it all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Share with us what the feeling was in the room and for you, too, watching."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 51.24940132245217, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "--in the control center as a groundhog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And watching it all."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Share with us what the feeling was in the room and for you, too, watching."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course everyone was nervously watching as it approached, because everyone had worked so hard for this for a couple of years, and everyone wanted it to work. They've got their fingers crossed, and they're on the edge of their seat. Of course, when they finally docked, they just broke out in applause, and the Russians are hugging everybody and pounding each other on the back, and probably if we'd let them, they would have broken out the vodka right then and there. But you know, like, \"No, no. We're still at work. Can't do that. Got to wait till the shift's over. After the shift's over, then we go have a drink.\" When we docked, everyone was just ecstatic. It's like, \"Great! All that work, all these years, it's finally paid off.\" We're working together. Got the Shuttle docked to a space station.\" People realized that was a historic thing at that point. I saved the Roundup that came out that week with the photo. I've still got that. So that was really exciting, being there for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then the differences when you were in the control room in Moscow, especially when you heard about the fire, what was the environment there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 18, "return_to_go": 49.192370985965525, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "More of it was practical stuff, it was a toothbrush, a razor, shampoo, just household living items, a bunch of batteries--he'd lost all his batteries. He said if you can squeeze in a book or a CD or something like that, because he lost all that personal stuff, too. So they put together a package pretty quick. But it was quite tense, especially for about the next week.\\n\\n The TsUP was unbelievably crowded, and they started having a commission within two days, and actually this time they allowed us to participate. They let me, or we actually had some managers out there. The working group happened to be going on. They let myself or the senior manager sit on their formal commission meetings, actually. That was interesting, to see how those went. Essentially they were just very methodical, checked out each possibility and do an analysis, see what the analysis says. I guess that's about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a difference after the collision? Were people working closely together or differently after the collision compared to the time before--I'm talking about the Russians and the Americans--or was it about the same?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, our cooperation pretty much was the same. It was very different after the collision versus right after the fire. I mean, when the fire occurred at night, they didn't even tell us until the next morning. With the collision, they gave us full access to everything. They let us in the senior meeting with the presidents of the company and all that, which they had not done before. So that was a major change. Essentially anything we asked for they gave us, any information that we wanted whatsoever. So they were a lot more forthcoming after the collision. Essentially it's because after the fire they realized they goofed. They said, \"Oops. Yeah, we should have told the Americans. We messed up.\" So things got a lot better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, that wasn't a normal time over there for you, but did you have a normal time while you were there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did I have any normal time?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your normal day like?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 35.577183332428184, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Didn't have much time off, actually; one day a week, and usually you spent it grocery shopping, doing laundry, that sort of thing. But occasionally the Russians would have--you know, there's be a holiday, and, of course, some big party was going on somewhere, or they'd invite some people over to one of their houses for dinner, that sort of thing. Usually, though, the American group hung out by ourselves, again, because it was such a crazy schedule. When we got off, usually four or five of us had that same day off, and some of us would go out to dinner together. If we were on the day shift, we went out to dinner a couple times a week, usually. You tried to find time.\\n\\n Usually once a month you got a full weekend off, and you'd try to find time to do a little sightseeing, go to a museum, go to the Kremlin, go to a concert at night if you could. If you got a long weekend, people would try to go to St. Petersburg for two days, something like that, which was a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You made it there, then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Made it there three times. Over two years I made it there three times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it anything like you expected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. St. Petersburg is a fabulous city. I'd read a lot about it. Very European. At the center of the city they've preserved all the historical stuff, so you can go to the Hermitage, which has been there for 300 years, or 200 years. I mean, the artwork is unbelievable, the palaces are incredible, the churches are something. You know, you have to see them to believe them. It's a fabulous city. I'd love to go back again; I'm sure I will."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did that differ from where you were living?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 20, "return_to_go": 36.196870369364646, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Made it there three times. Over two years I made it there three times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it anything like you expected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. St. Petersburg is a fabulous city. I'd read a lot about it. Very European. At the center of the city they've preserved all the historical stuff, so you can go to the Hermitage, which has been there for 300 years, or 200 years. I mean, the artwork is unbelievable, the palaces are incredible, the churches are something. You know, you have to see them to believe them. It's a fabulous city. I'd love to go back again; I'm sure I will."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did that differ from where you were living?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Moscow? Moscow is really like just any major city in the West now. I mean, it's got crime, it's got pollution--not graffiti, though. There's not really any graffiti. But it's a big city. It's high-rise apartment complexes everywhere. But there are still some historical places, obviously. You've got the Kremlin, St. Basil's, things like that, but most of those just tend to be in a few isolated areas, and the rest of it's all high-rise apartment buildings and ads and billboards and things like that, and traffic, non-stop traffic. You think Houston's got bad traffic problems. You should see Moscow.\\n\\n St. Petersburg, at least in the center, they've tried to preserve a little more of the older European heritage, so there's no apartment buildings in downtown St. Petersburg. It's just the more historical areas. There are some somewhat modern building, built in the 1800s, but there's no massive apartment complexes. Those are a little further out in the city. A lot more historical stuff is all centered in St. Petersburg. The palaces and the cathedrals all tend to be together. It's a little different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The times that you spent in the TsUP, how were they different from the times you spent in mission control here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.845710058473788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The one I worked with the most would have been Victor Blagov. He was the deputy flight director of mission control. He's the one who I tended to interface with the most when we needed an agreement on something. He's a very sharp guy. He could easily have been a flight director here on our side, very smart guy, very sharp. He knows the space business very well, and hopefully we'll get to work with him on Phase Two. I haven't heard whether he's going to retire yet or not. I'm curious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a very long and interesting stay with them since you started out in '95, and basically you worked on three flights over there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three of our flights and trained during another. My cumulative time, all my trips together, is just about a year in Moscow, just under a year, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there a highlight during that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A specific highlight. Hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can say more than one. I was just wondering if something stands out more than others."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.71745562052643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Three of our flights and trained during another. My cumulative time, all my trips together, is just about a year in Moscow, just under a year, I think."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there a highlight during that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A specific highlight. Hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can say more than one. I was just wondering if something stands out more than others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think I will always remember the first time you see Red Square and St. Basil's. I don't think I'll ever forget that sight. The last several decades that's just been the opposite of us. That was the evil empire, as [Ronald] Reagan said. It's just a very historical place. If you've read any history about it, you know it's 500 years old. Communism was nothing compared to how long this place has been here. Communism was just a short sidelight in the history of the city of Moscow, actually. I don't think I'll ever forget that first time we got to that area and you come up over a hill, and you see St. Basil's appearing behind Red Square. I don't think I'll ever forget that sight. It was something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the lowest part?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.57495068947381, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A specific highlight. Hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can say more than one. I was just wondering if something stands out more than others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think I will always remember the first time you see Red Square and St. Basil's. I don't think I'll ever forget that sight. The last several decades that's just been the opposite of us. That was the evil empire, as [Ronald] Reagan said. It's just a very historical place. If you've read any history about it, you know it's 500 years old. Communism was nothing compared to how long this place has been here. Communism was just a short sidelight in the history of the city of Moscow, actually. I don't think I'll ever forget that first time we got to that area and you come up over a hill, and you see St. Basil's appearing behind Red Square. I don't think I'll ever forget that sight. It was something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the lowest part?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lowest part had to have been right after the collision. There was a time there when we thought, \"That's it. The crew's coming home. The program's over.\" We just weren't sure whether that hatch was going to hold, and until they did get that hatch in place--and it took about ten minutes--for that ten minutes, there was a strong possibility the crew was coming home and that was the end of it. That was kind of a low point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were a groundhog, not a meatball, you still interfaced with some of those same--"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.638834099415345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think I will always remember the first time you see Red Square and St. Basil's. I don't think I'll ever forget that sight. The last several decades that's just been the opposite of us. That was the evil empire, as [Ronald] Reagan said. It's just a very historical place. If you've read any history about it, you know it's 500 years old. Communism was nothing compared to how long this place has been here. Communism was just a short sidelight in the history of the city of Moscow, actually. I don't think I'll ever forget that first time we got to that area and you come up over a hill, and you see St. Basil's appearing behind Red Square. I don't think I'll ever forget that sight. It was something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about the lowest part?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The lowest part had to have been right after the collision. There was a time there when we thought, \"That's it. The crew's coming home. The program's over.\" We just weren't sure whether that hatch was going to hold, and until they did get that hatch in place--and it took about ten minutes--for that ten minutes, there was a strong possibility the crew was coming home and that was the end of it. That was kind of a low point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were a groundhog, not a meatball, you still interfaced with some of those same--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of those same Russians, because the guys who worked in their mission control were usually the ones they sent over here as the consultant groups--shift flight directors, senior engineers. It was usually the same group. So when they were over here, we would entertain them. There'd usually be a party after the mission. We'd show them around town, that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were their reactions to being in America, or, better yet, Houston?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.29329995338415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the traffic, they said it's just like theirs, and we would joke, like weather forecasters were just as bad in their country as our country. Nobody seems to predict the weather right.\\n\\n It's a lot harder to get around here if you don't have a car, which none of the Russians would have. I mean, we don't have any good public transportation here, whereas in Moscow you don't need a car. You can live in Moscow without ever owning a car. They've got probably the best public transportation system in the world I've ever seen, especially the subways. It goes anywhere in the city for what is now, I think, thirty-three cents. It used to be a lot cheaper than that. It doesn't matter whether you're going a mile or fifty miles between the two points, thirty-three cents, that's it. And the trains are always running very frequently. There's a police station in every major station, so there's no crime in those, usually. Just a very efficient system. Over here without a car, the Russians were pretty much stuck in their hotel unless one of us took them out somewhere. So that was different. But they entertained a lot. Usually when they were here they'd have a lot of parties at their hotel. They've invite everybody over. So that was fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You'd get to see them on a different basis that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You'd see them on a different basis, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For three years you're been doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm still doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you turn it down if somebody offered it again, knowing what you know, or would you jump at the chance to do it again?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.770333281537944, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You'd see them on a different basis, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For three years you're been doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm still doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you turn it down if somebody offered it again, knowing what you know, or would you jump at the chance to do it again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd still do it, and I actually have. They asked me to be to continue to be an Operations Lead in Phase Two and continue being a team leader there. I said, \"Sure. Love to.\" I actually just got back two weeks ago from one trip, and I'm going out again in October, so I'll be there for the first launch of the new Space Station. I'll be there again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That's great."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 27.522592535042158, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm still doing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you turn it down if somebody offered it again, knowing what you know, or would you jump at the chance to do it again?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd still do it, and I actually have. They asked me to be to continue to be an Operations Lead in Phase Two and continue being a team leader there. I said, \"Sure. Love to.\" I actually just got back two weeks ago from one trip, and I'm going out again in October, so I'll be there for the first launch of the new Space Station. I'll be there again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that'll be something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you believe the Shuttle-Mir Program was worth all--"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 26.13621392782462, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd still do it, and I actually have. They asked me to be to continue to be an Operations Lead in Phase Two and continue being a team leader there. I said, \"Sure. Love to.\" I actually just got back two weeks ago from one trip, and I'm going out again in October, so I'll be there for the first launch of the new Space Station. I'll be there again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that'll be something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you believe the Shuttle-Mir Program was worth all--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. We learned so much about just how to run a space station. There are a lot of things different about a space station than about a Shuttle. One of them's just the time aspect. You've got to take a longer term aspect. There's no rush to get something done this minute. It can wait. We've learned a lot about just cooperation with the Russians. Obviously, with this space station, we're going to have to cooperate with more than just the Russians. There's all the Europeans, Japanese, Canadians, everybody else involved in the program. I think it's given us a lot of experience working with another major country as a partner. It's just taught us a lot in general about space stations, things you need to know to run a space station, things you should put in a space station. We've made some design changes to ours based on things we've learned working with the Russians. That'll make the Space Station a better place for the astronauts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what you did before you started doing this?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.26245991980513, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that'll be something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you believe the Shuttle-Mir Program was worth all--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. We learned so much about just how to run a space station. There are a lot of things different about a space station than about a Shuttle. One of them's just the time aspect. You've got to take a longer term aspect. There's no rush to get something done this minute. It can wait. We've learned a lot about just cooperation with the Russians. Obviously, with this space station, we're going to have to cooperate with more than just the Russians. There's all the Europeans, Japanese, Canadians, everybody else involved in the program. I think it's given us a lot of experience working with another major country as a partner. It's just taught us a lot in general about space stations, things you need to know to run a space station, things you should put in a space station. We've made some design changes to ours based on things we've learned working with the Russians. That'll make the Space Station a better place for the astronauts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what you did before you started doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean before Phase One? Sure. I started as a co-op at NASA in 1987, and the first three years I was here, I worked in the pointing office in the Shuttle Program. That was the office that dealt with determining the rotational orientation and pointing instruments at targets, things like that.\\n\\n In 1990, I went over to the Space Station Freedom Program at that time, and I worked in essentially the lead pointing engineer for Space Station. I was the only pointing engineer. And I also did planning, operations planning. I did that for about five years until this came up, until Phase One started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you ever worked with international partners before?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.29162213311681, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Absolutely. Absolutely. We learned so much about just how to run a space station. There are a lot of things different about a space station than about a Shuttle. One of them's just the time aspect. You've got to take a longer term aspect. There's no rush to get something done this minute. It can wait. We've learned a lot about just cooperation with the Russians. Obviously, with this space station, we're going to have to cooperate with more than just the Russians. There's all the Europeans, Japanese, Canadians, everybody else involved in the program. I think it's given us a lot of experience working with another major country as a partner. It's just taught us a lot in general about space stations, things you need to know to run a space station, things you should put in a space station. We've made some design changes to ours based on things we've learned working with the Russians. That'll make the Space Station a better place for the astronauts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what you did before you started doing this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean before Phase One? Sure. I started as a co-op at NASA in 1987, and the first three years I was here, I worked in the pointing office in the Shuttle Program. That was the office that dealt with determining the rotational orientation and pointing instruments at targets, things like that.\\n\\n In 1990, I went over to the Space Station Freedom Program at that time, and I worked in essentially the lead pointing engineer for Space Station. I was the only pointing engineer. And I also did planning, operations planning. I did that for about five years until this came up, until Phase One started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you ever worked with international partners before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit in the Space Station Freedom days. We worked some with the Japanese and a little bit with the Europeans, but it was like one two-week meeting every three or four months and that was it, not regular day-to-day stuff like with the Russians. So it was quite an experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was on-the-job training."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.32402459235201, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You mean before Phase One? Sure. I started as a co-op at NASA in 1987, and the first three years I was here, I worked in the pointing office in the Shuttle Program. That was the office that dealt with determining the rotational orientation and pointing instruments at targets, things like that.\\n\\n In 1990, I went over to the Space Station Freedom Program at that time, and I worked in essentially the lead pointing engineer for Space Station. I was the only pointing engineer. And I also did planning, operations planning. I did that for about five years until this came up, until Phase One started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you ever worked with international partners before?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit in the Space Station Freedom days. We worked some with the Japanese and a little bit with the Europeans, but it was like one two-week meeting every three or four months and that was it, not regular day-to-day stuff like with the Russians. So it was quite an experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was on-the-job training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On-the-job training. I had a great time, did manage to get a lot of fun things in on those few days off that we did get or nights that we had off. It was something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have to assume you were there all times of the year, you were there winter and summer as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.248916213724456, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A little bit in the Space Station Freedom days. We worked some with the Japanese and a little bit with the Europeans, but it was like one two-week meeting every three or four months and that was it, not regular day-to-day stuff like with the Russians. So it was quite an experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was on-the-job training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On-the-job training. I had a great time, did manage to get a lot of fun things in on those few days off that we did get or nights that we had off. It was something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have to assume you were there all times of the year, you were there winter and summer as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only time of the year I haven't been there, I haven't been there in mid-November, and I haven't been there in late January. Those are about the only two times of the year I've not been in Moscow. I've seen it at its hottest, and I've seen it at its coldest, at minus 30, and that's cold. Although I prefer Moscow at minus 30 over Houston when it's 105. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, at least you have a variety of clothing you can take back with you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 20.27657357080495, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On-the-job training. I had a great time, did manage to get a lot of fun things in on those few days off that we did get or nights that we had off. It was something else."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have to assume you were there all times of the year, you were there winter and summer as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only time of the year I haven't been there, I haven't been there in mid-November, and I haven't been there in late January. Those are about the only two times of the year I've not been in Moscow. I've seen it at its hottest, and I've seen it at its coldest, at minus 30, and that's cold. Although I prefer Moscow at minus 30 over Houston when it's 105. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, at least you have a variety of clothing you can take back with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When it's minus 30, you can always pull on another jacket. What do you do when it's 105? You can only take off so much, and you can only turn the air-conditioner down so far."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when you would got back, did you always go back to the same place, or did you have to change rooms?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.21203507655, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The first two trips, we stayed in a hotel. Since then, since we've started doing much longer trips, NASA's gotten us an apartment over there. Actually, there's a whole complex of apartments NASA's got, probably twenty or thirty apartments in this one building for all the people who are either living out there, like as an embassy employee, who were out there for a couple of years at a time, or people like myself, those in our group who go out for two or three months or five months at a time. There's some very nice apartments that we have out there that are actually cheaper than a hotel room. They're very expensive by Western standards, something like $5,000 a month or more, but the hotel room costs you $6,000 a month. So it's cheaper. NASA's actually saving money, and it gives us a much better place, because after about three or four weeks, that hotel room started to feel more like a prison cell.\n\nYou're stuck in the room. You can't go anywhere. Now we have a nice apartment. It's got a washer and dryer. It's great. You don't have to do it in the bathtub in Woolite anymore. We've got a washer and dryer, even if it is a very slow one. And you've got a kitchen so you don't have to go out every single meal. Going out to dinner's fun, but after doing it for every day for six straight weeks, it's getting to be a hassle. Those are real nice apartments."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you cook food from here, or did you learn how to cook dishes from there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of both. I would do some of both, and I'd make my favorites, but I also learned some Russian dishes or would buy Russian dishes and make them, like pelmeni, which is sort of like a dumpling, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you made them for your friends here now that you're back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not ready to--"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 20.2355945295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Some of both. I would do some of both, and I'd make my favorites, but I also learned some Russian dishes or would buy Russian dishes and make them, like pelmeni, which is sort of like a dumpling, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you made them for your friends here now that you're back?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not ready to--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can't buy them over here. You'd have to roll out and do all the dough by hand and shape them. It would take a lot of work. So I haven't done that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were there for so long, did you miss anything from this area?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.817327255, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not ready to--"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can't buy them over here. You'd have to roll out and do all the dough by hand and shape them. It would take a lot of work. So I haven't done that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were there for so long, did you miss anything from this area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see, what did I miss? I missed--you can't get any good barbecue out in Moscow, and you miss iced tea. [Laughter] They just don't have that over there. You kind of miss being able to just take a day off and go out and relax and do something over there. You couldn't really do that. When I was on the big trip, like the five month, I was given a week off in the middle to take vacation, and that was great. You miss some--you can't really go to the movies. There's one or two Russian theaters that have English movies, but they might only have one and it's the one that came out here six months ago, so you've already seen it. You miss that. There wasn't too much that I missed.\\n\\n Any particular foods I missed, I tried to have the family send some out, you know, \"Send out a jar of barbecue sauce,\" and we made some barbecue ourselves. If you missed Cajun food, \"Well, send out some spice mixes and we'll go pay the twenty dollars a pound for a pound of shrimp and make some crawfish or make some gumbo or something.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got CARE packages, too."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.46369695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Can't buy them over here. You'd have to roll out and do all the dough by hand and shape them. It would take a lot of work. So I haven't done that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were there for so long, did you miss anything from this area?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see, what did I miss? I missed--you can't get any good barbecue out in Moscow, and you miss iced tea. [Laughter] They just don't have that over there. You kind of miss being able to just take a day off and go out and relax and do something over there. You couldn't really do that. When I was on the big trip, like the five month, I was given a week off in the middle to take vacation, and that was great. You miss some--you can't really go to the movies. There's one or two Russian theaters that have English movies, but they might only have one and it's the one that came out here six months ago, so you've already seen it. You miss that. There wasn't too much that I missed.\\n\\n Any particular foods I missed, I tried to have the family send some out, you know, \"Send out a jar of barbecue sauce,\" and we made some barbecue ourselves. If you missed Cajun food, \"Well, send out some spice mixes and we'll go pay the twenty dollars a pound for a pound of shrimp and make some crawfish or make some gumbo or something.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got CARE packages, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "CARE packages, yes. One of the things--we all try to help each other out. I mean, we've all traveled out there. We all know there's going to be things we forgot or want or need brought out, so everyone is usually willing to carry something for somebody else, because they know that next time they're going to be the ones asking. I think one of the CARE packages they even sent me one time was a case of beer from Shiner Boch the brewery."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That managed to get through Customs okay?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 17.1818855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let's see, what did I miss? I missed--you can't get any good barbecue out in Moscow, and you miss iced tea. [Laughter] They just don't have that over there. You kind of miss being able to just take a day off and go out and relax and do something over there. You couldn't really do that. When I was on the big trip, like the five month, I was given a week off in the middle to take vacation, and that was great. You miss some--you can't really go to the movies. There's one or two Russian theaters that have English movies, but they might only have one and it's the one that came out here six months ago, so you've already seen it. You miss that. There wasn't too much that I missed.\\n\\n Any particular foods I missed, I tried to have the family send some out, you know, \"Send out a jar of barbecue sauce,\" and we made some barbecue ourselves. If you missed Cajun food, \"Well, send out some spice mixes and we'll go pay the twenty dollars a pound for a pound of shrimp and make some crawfish or make some gumbo or something.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got CARE packages, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "CARE packages, yes. One of the things--we all try to help each other out. I mean, we've all traveled out there. We all know there's going to be things we forgot or want or need brought out, so everyone is usually willing to carry something for somebody else, because they know that next time they're going to be the ones asking. I think one of the CARE packages they even sent me one time was a case of beer from Shiner Boch the brewery."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That managed to get through Customs okay?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They put it in a footlocker, essentially. Well, you're allowed to bring in alcohol, just certain amounts, so they just brought in a case of beer for me. Although you can get plenty of European beers there, this was just something from Texas. Beer from home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you notice lots of changes from the first time that you went to the last time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.22455, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They put it in a footlocker, essentially. Well, you're allowed to bring in alcohol, just certain amounts, so they just brought in a case of beer for me. Although you can get plenty of European beers there, this was just something from Texas. Beer from home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you notice lots of changes from the first time that you went to the last time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. Prices have gone way up. It used to be we could go out and you got a nice dinner--well, the average dinner, if you had some drinks, you might pay twenty-five, thirty dollars a person. Now it's forty-five, fifty dollars a person for the same meals. That's like Mexican food. Go get Mexican food and a margarita, fifty bucks. But it's pretty much average. It doesn't matter what you eat, it's always going to fall into that forty- to fifty-dollar range.\\n\\n Traffic's about the same. There's a lot more stores and restaurants that cater to foreigners. When we first went there on Norm Thagard's mission, there were maybe three or four restaurants outside the hotel that we knew about that were considered safe to eat at. I don't think I've been there in a year, because there's a hundred to choose from now. I haven't even gone back to those old ones anymore because we ate there so often.\\n\\n They've really fixed up the city. Last year was Moscow's 850th birthday, so they spent pretty much a year or more cleaning up the city, repainting buildings, widening streets, putting up new artwork, opening up a new museum, building a new cathedral, all this kind of stuff. So there's been a lot of changes in the way the city looks, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It'll be interesting to see in the next few years how much more it changes while you're there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I'll be very curious. And, of course, the whole political thing's changed, too, over the last few years. That's been interesting to watch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, because you're right there in the middle of it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I'll be very curious. And, of course, the whole political thing's changed, too, over the last few years. That's been interesting to watch."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, because you're right there in the middle of it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're in the middle of it. You pay a little more attention to it when you're in that country. You kind of want to know whether [Boris] Yeltsin's going to be staying in power a little longer. I've talked to some guys here who were actually at the embassy, the NASA office, back when the last coup occurred. They said, yeah, they were looking out the windows of the NASA office, and they could see the tanks going down the street. So they've got some great shots of it, but I'm sure that's not what they were thinking at the time. So you pay attention to that kind of stuff out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever feel threatened or not safe when you're there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I haven't, but you just take general precautions. You're not going to go walking down Montrose at night by yourself here in Houston, so why are you going to go to some strange part of Moscow and walk alone at night if you don't speak the language, even? So we tend to go out in groups. Since I do speak a reasonable amount of Russian, I have gone out on my own, but I usually do it during the day, or if I go at night, I go to a specific, very well-populated area like the Bolshoi Theater, something that's obviously not a crime zone, there's always going to be a lot of people there. And I haven't had any problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you normally go to the ballet?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.95, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You're in the middle of it. You pay a little more attention to it when you're in that country. You kind of want to know whether [Boris] Yeltsin's going to be staying in power a little longer. I've talked to some guys here who were actually at the embassy, the NASA office, back when the last coup occurred. They said, yeah, they were looking out the windows of the NASA office, and they could see the tanks going down the street. So they've got some great shots of it, but I'm sure that's not what they were thinking at the time. So you pay attention to that kind of stuff out there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you ever feel threatened or not safe when you're there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I haven't, but you just take general precautions. You're not going to go walking down Montrose at night by yourself here in Houston, so why are you going to go to some strange part of Moscow and walk alone at night if you don't speak the language, even? So we tend to go out in groups. Since I do speak a reasonable amount of Russian, I have gone out on my own, but I usually do it during the day, or if I go at night, I go to a specific, very well-populated area like the Bolshoi Theater, something that's obviously not a crime zone, there's always going to be a lot of people there. And I haven't had any problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you normally go to the ballet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the first time I've ever seen the ballet, was in Russia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a place to see it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.5, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I haven't, but you just take general precautions. You're not going to go walking down Montrose at night by yourself here in Houston, so why are you going to go to some strange part of Moscow and walk alone at night if you don't speak the language, even? So we tend to go out in groups. Since I do speak a reasonable amount of Russian, I have gone out on my own, but I usually do it during the day, or if I go at night, I go to a specific, very well-populated area like the Bolshoi Theater, something that's obviously not a crime zone, there's always going to be a lot of people there. And I haven't had any problems."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you normally go to the ballet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the first time I've ever seen the ballet, was in Russia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a place to see it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, what a place to see it. I go to symphonies a lot. I've always enjoyed that, and they've got some fabulous ones out there, like the Tchaikovsky Conservatory. Actually, this last trip, I walked out, they were having the Tchaikovsky Festival. It's kind of like the Olympics of amateur music, and it happened to be there last months when I was out there. So I got to see some of the finalists. That was pretty impressive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. I'm glad there's at least a little more time to do things now that it's not so busy."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 5.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was the first time I've ever seen the ballet, was in Russia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a place to see it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, what a place to see it. I go to symphonies a lot. I've always enjoyed that, and they've got some fabulous ones out there, like the Tchaikovsky Conservatory. Actually, this last trip, I walked out, they were having the Tchaikovsky Festival. It's kind of like the Olympics of amateur music, and it happened to be there last months when I was out there. So I got to see some of the finalists. That was pretty impressive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. I'm glad there's at least a little more time to do things now that it's not so busy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, one of the things we've learned is we can't keep working that kind of schedule that we had on previous flights. We're trying to get the hours down a little bit more to work nine-hour shifts, give everybody a weekend off at least every other week. So we'll see. We'll see how we do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any questions, Carol?\n\nWhat was your biggest cultural shock when you first went to Russia?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00819:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, actually, one of the things we've learned is we can't keep working that kind of schedule that we had on previous flights. We're trying to get the hours down a little bit more to work nine-hour shifts, give everybody a weekend off at least every other week. So we'll see. We'll see how we do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have any questions, Carol?\n\nWhat was your biggest cultural shock when you first went to Russia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Biggest cultural shock. It's really got to be the language. I mean, if you've ever traveled to Europe, even if you don't speak French or German or Italian, at least the letters look the same. You might be able to kind of guess, just by looking at the word, what it might be. In Russia, you can't do that. It's an entirely different alphabet. So, trying to navigate around the city is just much, much more difficult if you don't know the alphabet. Luckily I did know it, so I did okay, but just that general thing, there's almost no one who speaks English out there. In the major hotels, the expensive restaurants, yes. They speak English because they're trying to cater to the foreigners. But in general, wherever you go in Moscow, nobody speaks English, whereas in Europe there's always somebody you can find who knows a little. So that's probably the biggest cultural thing. You are really on your own out there. You've got to be smart and pay attention to what you're doing to get around. That probably was the biggest shock."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. We enjoyed hearing about your adventures, and I guess that's one way of casting it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's one way of putting it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure there'll be many more."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00022:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 45.27649823567134, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They don't?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh. I wonder why. That would just keep them abreast of things that are going on or share best practices or stories or . . ."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think today, I don't—so I'm two years away from NARA. I don't know whether the ICN [Internal Communications Network] is still there, but there are so many new social media- based or computer-based ways to communicate. Back in the day, I mean, just think about it. There was no email. I mean, there was no email. So the only communication was to pick up the phone, which you're not going to do lightly with senior leaders—you know, a Director might talk to the Archivist, but the Archivist is not going to talk to lots of those reporting to him frequently—I mean, he just doesn't have the bandwidth to do that—or send out memos, you know, paper communications and all the limitations of that. So the Manager’s Monthly was useful in its day. And, I think, newsletters are still valuable, but it would be a different form today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Yeah, we do have a lot of different newsletter-type communications that go out. You're right. But yeah, just that format has changed over time."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00022:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3122000000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I just don't think we had the capability within our office to do the kind of public relations/public education work on behalf of the Electoral College process—you've got to realize there are only a very few people involved in that. And it's not a heavy lift, but it's not like 400 people are available to go on Meet the Press or design a media strategy. [LAUGHS]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. I was wondering if it was more about changing or better communicating what the role was and—yeah, not that it's going to change your mission or your policy per se. It's just communicating."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And also, we can't take a position on whether the Electoral College should or [should] not exist. Right? We're agnostic. We are just saying, right now, it's a part of the Constitution. It's part of the law. And so we have to implement it. Because a lot of people were proposing to eliminate the Electoral College, we had to be careful that we didn't step into that policy debate and tried not to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah. Trying to stay nonpolitical, nonpartisan, non-everything, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Hey, I'm seeing I have one more minute left on the interview, but I was wondering if you would have just a quick chance to talk about . . . You kind of mentioned the classified records earlier . . . if you wanted to add anything about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00022:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It might be useful to spend some more time later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I need to really be careful how I speak about that, because it has classified aspects to it. So . . ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to be careful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you want me to set up another time for us to talk?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00022:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I need to really be careful how I speak about that, because it has classified aspects to it. So . . ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to be careful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you want me to set up another time for us to talk?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That'd be fine, unless it's too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unless it's too much? What do you mean?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00022:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I want to be careful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Do you want me to set up another time for us to talk?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That'd be fine, unless it's too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Unless it's too much? What do you mean?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, you were expecting an hour and a half, and if it turns into three hours, it may be more than you want [LAUGHS]. I'm not sure that what I have to share is all that significant, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. [LAUGHS] It's more about trying not to take up too much of your time. But if you're willing to set up another time, then I'm more than willing to do that. And so, how about I go ahead and stop the recording now, and then I can send you some possible dates and times that might work to continue the conversation?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00016:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 56.45502472194778, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—just going on and on, but, it’s a pretty wide-ranging set of responsibilities. And of course you have your standard personnel stuff that you have got to learn. You’ve got to learn all the stupid personnel rules and performance evaluations and all that sort of stuff."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, before we move on to that section, I wanted to ask you about the relationships with the Smithsonian. From your perspective and your experience, what has been the relationship with the Smithsonian Institution? Is it a competitive nature or not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only time we really had this sort of competitive nature was with that Air Force collection that was over there. And that was really the Air Force’s problem. I mean, they were responsible for the problem. But it was also I’d laid some of the responsibility at the door of the appraisal people. I mean, whoever was responsible for the Air Force, it’s like all of a sudden we wake up and find out, oh, by the way, the Air Force has transferred all their stuff over to the Air and Space Museum because they’re going to create a video disk. Well, why didn’t somebody tell us about this beforehand? That’s their job. That’s what they’re supposed to do. They’re supposed to keep their ear to the ground. So we never found out about it until it was after the fact. And, you don’t solve problems after the fact. So that’s the only real time we had had any kind of issues. And the same thing with the LC. I mean, we each have our sphere of responsibility. And, at least as long as I’ve been working here, there really hasn’t been any attempts by the LC or the Smithsonian to try to grab archival federal agency records. They understand that that’s our responsibility."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And now are they pretty good customers to NARA? Do the Library of Congress or the Smithsonian for the Museums, do they come to NARA for materials?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I mean, they were copies not necessarily originals."}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00016:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 56.364228051787386, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. I mean, they were copies not necessarily originals."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, the Smithsonian is a sprawling place. So a lot of the museums come to us when they have photo exhibits because we have things that nobody else has. All of the Brady material, all of the Western Survey material. I mean, we have the greatest collection of that material here, World War II, World War I. You know, we have things that nobody else has. So when parts of the Smithsonian are doing exhibits, like we’re in a discussion right now with the National Portrait Gallery over Alexander Gardner prints that they want to use for an exhibit in 2015. So that happens quite frequently. Not so much with the L.C. I mean, they’re not really into exhibition. We refer each other back and forth. And about five years ago, myself and the person over at the LC set up sort of a—we go over there and get kind of a half-day preview of what they have. And they come over here and they get kind of a half-day preview of what we have and what we do, which is kind of so the reference staffs on both sides had some kind of an idea about what they do, what they have, and what we do and what we have, which was very beneficial, because somebody could say over there, oh, well, if you want that, you really need to go over to NARA. And if people come here and they’re looking for the, you know, the FSA collection, the Farm Security Administration photos, which were very famous during the thirties, we know we don’t have them. They’re at the LC. We just refer them over to the LC."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Cool. All right. Can you explain the process with preparing Deeds of Gift?"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00016:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 44.76114322969439, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, that’s kind of what happened to the roadmap, the pool. And now we have the freeze board, which is just as bad. They’re not going to listen to any of this, are they?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No. Never. All right. Going to jump around a little bit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I’m all rambling."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve mentioned LICON before."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you explain what that is? It’s not an acronym, it’s a—"}]}
{"block_id": "oral-history-at-the-national-archives-00016:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 48.59400398727702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you explain what that is? It’s not an acronym, it’s a—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Interposing] Yeah, actually it is."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "—abbreviation. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I guess. I guess, yes. Well, what it stands for is lifecycle control unit, and they just shortened it to LICON. And, essentially, it kind of replaced the branch structure, because they weren’t talking about branches anymore. They were LICONs. And we were the still picture LICON. And there was a motion picture LICON. And there was a cartographic LICON. And there was textual records LICON. So that, you know, that came in, I’m trying to remember. I think that came in when Jim Hastings was head of the textual division. And he always had a very close relationship with Mike Kurtz. So, like the design review you were talking about, I think Jim was heavily involved in that. And Kurtz, of course, was heavily involved in that. And then, this concept of the LICON came in, which, as best as I could tell, was basically just they didn’t want to call us branches, so they called us LICONs. And, at one point, they were calling us units, the Still Picture unit. Well, okay. So now we’re back to where it probably ought to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now, do you still provide tours of your section, of your unit? Do you still conduct those? I’ve heard that you do those yourself."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 101.46310591709205, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you for inviting me, Rebecca and Carol [Butler]. It's a privilege, really, to be here, and I'm thrilled to attend this launch [STS-93] that's going to happen tonight, my first one, and I've looked forward to a launch since the original program started, the Mercury Program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've been here for a couple of days, visiting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, we came in Sunday, rented a car in Orlando, and we're over here on the beach. Yesterday we were at the complex, the [Kennedy] Space Center, and enjoyed the tours and the way people treated us. Absolutely amazed at the complexity of this operation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have a chance to visit with anyone yesterday?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a briefing, and at the briefing we met very interesting people, including a representative who talked about the Chandra X-ray imaging telescope and the fact it's the only object really in the launch [STS-93], in the Shuttle, and they're carrying up at such a weight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you come yesterday as a WASP or as a visitor?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 19, "return_to_go": 110.81864928036055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a briefing, and at the briefing we met very interesting people, including a representative who talked about the Chandra X-ray imaging telescope and the fact it's the only object really in the launch [STS-93], in the Shuttle, and they're carrying up at such a weight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you come yesterday as a WASP or as a visitor?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I come as a WASP."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because my invitation from [STS-93 Commander] Eileen [Collins], which I was delighted to receive. And it was completely unexpected, it has \"Dawn Seymour, WASP\" on it, and that's how I registered on the database. I feel it's a personal honor to have this invitation.\\n\\n I’ve corresponded with Eileen through the years, and she is a nearby neighbor, actually, because she came from Elmira, and we live on Canandaigua Lake in western New York. It's called the Finger Lakes, and it's only about maybe forty minutes away. So I've invited her to be a speaker at various events, which she was unable to do because of her heavy workload. But I've talked to her mother through the years.\\n\\n Interestingly enough, on the third of February 1995, my daughter had a baby girl, the same moment, perhaps, that she [Eileen] launched into space. And the daughter's named Emma Louise Seymour Morse, and she's four years old. So when the anniversary comes around, this year I wrote her, because I'm thinking of her then, about this long delayed flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She has such a historic moment tonight, but yet your history goes back a few years. Tell us how you became interested in aviation as a young girl."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 59.60517044404571, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I also flew—I had had thirty hours in the B-26, pulling the sleeve, just as co-pilot now. Yes, sometimes I'd see tracers in the B-17 going toward the plane, the B-26, and you'd put on the mike and say, \"The sleeve, guys!\" [Laughter] \"Aim at the sleeve!\" But, no, I don't think I had any fear.\\n\\n I'm thinking of fear now after going through Cape Canaveral yesterday, or the Kennedy Space Center, I call it, and seeing that huge, huge complex, the Shuttle arrangement that's going off tonight, and I wonder about fear. You have to cross the river and let the river drain your fear. I think Eileen Collins perhaps feels that way. We didn't have—why should that be fearful, what we did? I don't think so. But she's an unusual woman. I think it's her quiet confidence that affects me today. It permeates this whole mission."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a necessary ingredient for you and the rest of the WASP as you went through your journey, working on these bases? There were such few women surrounded by these men. I'm sure you got mixed attitudes and mixed perceptions and possibly mixed comments from different people that worked on the bases."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think so. Oh, I think so. I think so. It's part of this change. When men accept women as partners, this is all going to change. We're partners in life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you feel that when you were on the bases?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I felt perfectly belonging. I had no sense of being an outsider. I think anyone who had a feeling I was an outsider, it's their problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were able to spend many months doing your service to your country, and at some point—in fact, it was in December of 1944 they disbanded the WASP. Tell us how you felt when you heard that there was going to be a program."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 60.31675687664961, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yes, and the qualifications were tough in a sense. When I joined, you had to be twenty-one and you had to have at least fifty hours of flying time. It gradually lowered—age and amount of time. The college degree was once used, or maybe some years of college. She [J.C.] liked to have—she thought education was important, because she had not had [formal] education in her lifetime."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a lot of competition among the women that were in Sweetwater, or did they all build together and help each other as a team?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think we built. I think so. The competition was with yourself, because you wanted to succeed and you didn't want to wash out. [Laughter] Some people were washed out, I'm sure, who were very capable pilots, but it was just the timing, that particular timing. I think probably the program yesterday talked about our check rides. We had civilian check rides and we had military check rides. The military check rides were the tough ones to overcome if you had a pink slip."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And a different type of person checking you out, I guess, on that military check ride."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And many of the military pilots wanted to be overseas. There was that point, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's visit again some of the times that you were still a WASP, and I'm sure you had many, many nice memories. Can you share one or two memorable moments with us that seem to be so significant even today?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 74.46513194648101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And many of the military pilots wanted to be overseas. There was that point, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's visit again some of the times that you were still a WASP, and I'm sure you had many, many nice memories. Can you share one or two memorable moments with us that seem to be so significant even today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, perhaps—yes. One in Roswell, New Mexico. Roswell, New Mexico, is desert, high desert country, and you have tumbleweed every so often that will come rolling down the runway, and sometimes it can be a huge mass and you cannot get out of the way of the tumbleweed, and you go right through it, which is fun.\\n\\n But perhaps the best landing I ever made was at Roswell. It had rained and the field was damp, so the runways were still damp. I came around and I remember coming in and getting the tail down just right and the wheels just right, and there was no squeak. [Laughter] No bounce. I kept saying to myself, \"This is wonderful!\" And it turned out to be my very last landing. So it's a wonderful memory to have. But because the field was wet and the wheels, you see, didn't stick and they came down. It was just one of those lucky landings.\\n\\n Landings were important, because maybe you only made one or two a day, and if they were not a good landing, what you'd consider a good landing, I'd feel I had failed somehow. I wanted to get them and have a good landing. And you prided yourself on this. I think most pilots do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had many continual hours sitting in that left seat."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were piloting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 82.73903549609001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, perhaps—yes. One in Roswell, New Mexico. Roswell, New Mexico, is desert, high desert country, and you have tumbleweed every so often that will come rolling down the runway, and sometimes it can be a huge mass and you cannot get out of the way of the tumbleweed, and you go right through it, which is fun.\\n\\n But perhaps the best landing I ever made was at Roswell. It had rained and the field was damp, so the runways were still damp. I came around and I remember coming in and getting the tail down just right and the wheels just right, and there was no squeak. [Laughter] No bounce. I kept saying to myself, \"This is wonderful!\" And it turned out to be my very last landing. So it's a wonderful memory to have. But because the field was wet and the wheels, you see, didn't stick and they came down. It was just one of those lucky landings.\\n\\n Landings were important, because maybe you only made one or two a day, and if they were not a good landing, what you'd consider a good landing, I'd feel I had failed somehow. I wanted to get them and have a good landing. And you prided yourself on this. I think most pilots do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had many continual hours sitting in that left seat."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were piloting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And trying to focus."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 55, "return_to_go": 89.7100394401, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were piloting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And trying to focus."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You see, I was in the Training Command. I was not in the Ferrying Command. So that makes a big difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Although those days of you being an active WASP stopped, you have continued working as a WASP, hoping to let other people know about the participation and the contributions that the WASP have given. Tell us about some of those activities."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 21.6561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, absolutely. Oh, today? Yes. Tonight? Yes. It took some time. Just like we talked about the Bill of Sentiments was 1848. Now here we are 151 years later and we have a woman going into space as commander of a space flight. So we're talking about—when I say the word \"continuum,\" I mean years, decades, hundreds of years. I'm even thinking of a millennium of how women have been treated. American women have more opportunities today than they've ever had in history, that I can see. So we've always known we belonged in the world, but now we have the legal reasons to belong.\\n\\n Now, I don't think that when you think about it, the right to vote was not as important as Title IX was. [Of course, I realize that legal progress for women is step by step, but Title IX affected me personally.] Title IX opened athletics to women. [Interruption]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Title IX."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Title IX, which opened athletics to women, with the same amount of training, equipment, so forth, was more powerful than anything that's happened in…[my lifetime]. [Recently,] you saw that with the soccer game, the World Cup game, with American women. It [Title IX] affected my daughters' lives. My daughters were going out for cheerleading, and suddenly Title IX came along and they were playing soccer with the best coach and the best equipment. And they are powerful women. They're much different perhaps than I am. I mean, I have all the constraints of my mother, of my mother's generation. [Laughter]\\n\\n But I also want to say there's quite a difference in the WASP story and Eileen's, because we did not fly under the glare of media cameras and press."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, you didn't."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't. We might have had people make comments to us and stare at us, but I didn't have any discrimination of that sort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And yet it's a different pressure in a sense that you had a job to do."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And we move on into another historic moment for women in aviation as we move into tomorrow and Commander Collins takes her place in history as well [launch of STS-93]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Takes her place and we all move up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We thank you for visiting with us today and sharing your memories with us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm pleased to. I'm pleased to. I'm thrilled to be here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll just let the excitement of today and the event carry us on, and you'll have one more memory to add as you go and visit others."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Takes her place and we all move up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We thank you for visiting with us today and sharing your memories with us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm pleased to. I'm pleased to. I'm thrilled to be here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll just let the excitement of today and the event carry us on, and you'll have one more memory to add as you go and visit others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I salute—all the WASPs salute Eileen Collins."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you so much."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00997:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm pleased to. I'm pleased to. I'm thrilled to be here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We'll just let the excitement of today and the event carry us on, and you'll have one more memory to add as you go and visit others."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I salute—all the WASPs salute Eileen Collins."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you so much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I bring that message."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hopefully she'll get that before she goes, but we'll definitely make sure she gets it when she returns."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00457:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 74.83707792318, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I don’t think I was on console for the spacewalk. I was a CapCom for that mission. I know they had a little bit of a problem with one of the suits and so on. I must have been on the planning team or something for that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned some of the humor. Who decides the wakeup calls for the astronauts? Is that something that’s a CapCom’s duty?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the CapComs do that. The support crew concept went away after a while and the CapComs kind of took over that role, but in the early days, the support crews had what we thought of as morale jobs. One of the aspects of that was creating a notebook of pictures and funny sayings and mementos from the families and things like that, that the crew would find when they got up on orbit and they opened up their flight data file. There was a book in there of cartoons, jokes about the crew, pictures of them in their training, things that made them look silly and stuff like that, and that was kind of fun. I got involved with that on STS-5, with Vance’s crew.\\n\\n Then on STS-9 I was involved with it with John Young’s crew. I remember we created a picture of him; we cut his head out of one picture and pasted it over a picture of Lou Gehrig [baseball player for the New York Yankees]. So you had John Young there in Lou Gehrig’s uniform. We thought of him as the Lou Gehrig of the astronaut corps. I don’t remember why. But that kind of stuff we would do, and it was good for the crew. On the first day, they normally don’t feel too well, and to pull that thing out and have a chuckle or two, that’s good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On STS-9 they had the first payload specialists."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How were they received by the astronaut corps, and that relationship, not just those two specifically, but the whole payload specialists group."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.108631041582445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. That's the way Chris usually is about things like that, all things, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess he'd seen enough of your work up until then to know that if it was something that you wanted to do, then you were going to be able to be good at it and do it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would like to think that. It was a good move, in retrospect. It was a good move.\\n\\n About that time we were bringing the control center in Houston along also. It had been under construction for at least a couple of years, I guess. After a lot of testing, it was decided that we would use it for the first time on the Gemini IV flight, but because of the little bit of remaining uncertainty, it was decided that we would activate the control center at the Cape also, and have a skeleton crew down there for the launch phase, which was the most critical. So Glynn Lunney went down as flight director and I went down as a combination retrofire officer, flight dynamics officer, and guidance officer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Literally had a chair with wheels on it that would slide back and forth between the three consoles. Arnie [Arnold D.] Aldrich did a similar thing for the systems. He was a combined guidance, navigation and control officer [GNC] and the EECOM, the electrical, environmental [and communications officer]. So he also covered two or three consoles. Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] was the capcom [capsule communicator]. So we went down for a couple of weeks of simulations and then for the real launch.\\n\\n As luck would have it, John [D.] Hodge was the flight director back in Houston and Cliff Charlesworth was the flight dynamics officer. They actually lost power in the control center, went down for a few seconds, and we kept saying, \"Switch over. Switch over. We've got it.\" They wouldn't do it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were determined."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.120701157313828, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would like to think that. It was a good move, in retrospect. It was a good move.\\n\\n About that time we were bringing the control center in Houston along also. It had been under construction for at least a couple of years, I guess. After a lot of testing, it was decided that we would use it for the first time on the Gemini IV flight, but because of the little bit of remaining uncertainty, it was decided that we would activate the control center at the Cape also, and have a skeleton crew down there for the launch phase, which was the most critical. So Glynn Lunney went down as flight director and I went down as a combination retrofire officer, flight dynamics officer, and guidance officer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Literally had a chair with wheels on it that would slide back and forth between the three consoles. Arnie [Arnold D.] Aldrich did a similar thing for the systems. He was a combined guidance, navigation and control officer [GNC] and the EECOM, the electrical, environmental [and communications officer]. So he also covered two or three consoles. Al [Alan B.] Shepard [Jr.] was the capcom [capsule communicator]. So we went down for a couple of weeks of simulations and then for the real launch.\\n\\n As luck would have it, John [D.] Hodge was the flight director back in Houston and Cliff Charlesworth was the flight dynamics officer. They actually lost power in the control center, went down for a few seconds, and we kept saying, \"Switch over. Switch over. We've got it.\" They wouldn't do it. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were determined."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, but it worked out all right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You've mentioned a couple times now the simulations and that you were a little bit involved with that in Mercury and then again here in Gemini. If maybe you could talk about some of what that involved and how that changed from the two different programs."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.443057727165282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and it was in some respects rewarding, because if you did the right thing, you felt good about it. Or if you did the wrong thing, you'd say, \"Well, at least I learned something. I did what I thought was the right thing, but it turned out maybe we need to look at that a little bit more.\" So the simulations were very valuable.\\n\\n In fact, I've always thought that the simulation people were kind of unsung heroes in the manned spaceflight program, because they didn't get any credit for anything. They weren't in the limelight. Once the mission started, they kind of went away and started working on the next mission. But they knew their jobs, they knew the jobs of the people in the control center as well as the people who sat at the consoles, and they had to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet they knew the spacecraft pretty well, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes, obviously they had to know the spacecraft. We occasionally had what we called the integrated sims, which included the flight crew. Those were especially beneficial. Usually we would start out with what we called standalone sims with just the flight controllers. We'd go through the exercises. Then, of course, the flight crew was doing the same thing in their simulators. But then we would do integrated sims where we would both come together. Those were especially rewarding. It showed that we could work together as a team and that we agreed with their actions and they agreed with ours. In addition to training the people and exercising the mission rules, it was a team-building exercise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Very important, especially in this business."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very important. Very important. In fact, in later years I've—you know, it seems like every two or three years there's a new management trend in total quality or teamwork, or all these courses that people [started coming up with]. I've been to a number of those, and after a while I thought, \"Hey, this is what we used to do back in the sixties at the Manned Spacecraft Center. We just didn't call it this.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just didn't have a fancy name."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 27.707478675512693, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very important. Very important. In fact, in later years I've—you know, it seems like every two or three years there's a new management trend in total quality or teamwork, or all these courses that people [started coming up with]. I've been to a number of those, and after a while I thought, \"Hey, this is what we used to do back in the sixties at the Manned Spacecraft Center. We just didn't call it this.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just didn't have a fancy name."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We were doing teamwork. We did all of this."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Somebody's making a fortune off of putting it in books and selling it to other people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "People buy a lot of different things nowadays.\\n\\n Talking about the team-building and the teamwork, you had the flight control team and you had the support people that were in the back rooms, and you had the flight crews, and then you had the engineers working on the spacecraft and the managers. How were relations among everyone? Any reflections on that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 29.265827830298043, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You bet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It really is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, I have discovered in my later years that I measure my life by pre-1969 and post-1969."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If somebody says, well, in 1975 I did this, or something happened, or I read something, the first thing that comes to my mind, for some reason, is, well, that was before we first landed on the Moon, or it was after that. So I've kind of divided up my life into what happened before 1969 and what happened after 1969. I don't mean it was bad after '69. A lot of good things, a lot of good things happened after 1969. But it was such a pivotal milestone in my life, that that's usually the first thing I think about when a date comes up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's certainly a very critical milestone for the whole world it changed."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 30.680147915360827, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'd like to think so. I mean, it's really kind of sad to think here we are, what, thirty-one years now after we first did that in 1969, and what, twenty-eight years since the last time we did it. That's unbelievable. In fact, people frequently ask, when they find out I worked on the manned space program, \"Well, how did you guys do that in such a short time period?\" And I don't have a real good answer for that.\\n\\n John [W.] Aaron, a friend of mine who was EECOM flight controller, and one of the best there ever was in the control center, said one time there was just an unusual way that the dominoes lined up at the time, I guess, or something like that. He said it much better than that. He's much more eloquent than that. But it was an unusual set of dominoes that lined up at the time.\\n\\n We obviously had a challenge from the President [John F. Kennedy], and that was important. I mean, if you live in the United States, who's more important than the President? Especially back in those days. You think, hey, the President has established this challenge, the country, by and large, is behind it, it's the most exciting thing that's ever happened, and the money was available. So we just went and did it. And I'm not sure you could do anything like that again in that short a time period."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly takes all of the right pieces coming together, everything from the President and Congress, down to having the right people in the right places."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The right people. You know, again, if there hadn't been people like Bob Gilruth and Chris Kraft, Sig [Sigurd A.] Sjoberg, and a whole bunch of others, it wouldn't have happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They certainly made a lot that didn't initially seem possible become possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You started with minimum technology and so many things had to be created along the way."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 32.9779421281787, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The right people. You know, again, if there hadn't been people like Bob Gilruth and Chris Kraft, Sig [Sigurd A.] Sjoberg, and a whole bunch of others, it wouldn't have happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They certainly made a lot that didn't initially seem possible become possible."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You started with minimum technology and so many things had to be created along the way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I guess we didn't understand that it wasn't possible. There were no textbooks. There were even no degrees then in aerospace engineering, especially not space studies. But I don't know, [it was] sometime at least in the mid-sixties or later before any colleges I ever heard of starting offering degrees in aerospace and there were textbooks. What we had to learn from in the trajectory area about orbital mechanics were a few NASA technical notes that people had written. Even the physics books didn't have anything about orbital mechanics. We had what today would have to be the crudest computers that you can imagine, you know, but we thought they were pretty good and we would just keep running trials and errors until we figured it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they were certainly good in comparison to what else you had."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.64215792019855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You started with minimum technology and so many things had to be created along the way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I guess we didn't understand that it wasn't possible. There were no textbooks. There were even no degrees then in aerospace engineering, especially not space studies. But I don't know, [it was] sometime at least in the mid-sixties or later before any colleges I ever heard of starting offering degrees in aerospace and there were textbooks. What we had to learn from in the trajectory area about orbital mechanics were a few NASA technical notes that people had written. Even the physics books didn't have anything about orbital mechanics. We had what today would have to be the crudest computers that you can imagine, you know, but we thought they were pretty good and we would just keep running trials and errors until we figured it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they were certainly good in comparison to what else you had."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Made it all work."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 40.71350880022061, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I guess we didn't understand that it wasn't possible. There were no textbooks. There were even no degrees then in aerospace engineering, especially not space studies. But I don't know, [it was] sometime at least in the mid-sixties or later before any colleges I ever heard of starting offering degrees in aerospace and there were textbooks. What we had to learn from in the trajectory area about orbital mechanics were a few NASA technical notes that people had written. Even the physics books didn't have anything about orbital mechanics. We had what today would have to be the crudest computers that you can imagine, you know, but we thought they were pretty good and we would just keep running trials and errors until we figured it out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they were certainly good in comparison to what else you had."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Made it all work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Beats slide rules, anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned, we had talked up to about Gemini IV, and getting the control center in Houston, coming on line, and that you were down at the Cape for Gemini IV. Then the Gemini missions began to really get up to speed and really working to accomplish some of the critical goals of rendezvous, docking, space walking. What did you do in between missions, actually, I guess would be my first question, to help prepare for all of this and to help get ready for the missions, besides the training that you talked about earlier? Were there other daily activities?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.207459843918294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, you know, to be in the air for fourteen days and not be able to stand up or really move at all with another person is not something that I would look forward to myself. [Laughter] But I mean, we proved that under harsh conditions, much harsher than what they would experience in Apollo, because it would be [more] roomy and without a lot of the conveniences that they would have on Apollo, I assumed were going to be developed, like better food and better toilet provisions and all that kind of stuff, they survived. I'm sure—I never talked to either [Frank] Borman or [James A.] Lovell [Jr.] about that, I guess, but it has to be the most miserable two weeks of their lives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that was a big thing. I mean, it sounds kind of silly now, but there were still people who questioned could people live as long as ten days in zero G [gravity]. Well, they lived for a couple of weeks, and it wasn't a big problem. They were a little awkward when they got back to land, but within a day or so they seemed to be, physically they seemed to be back to normal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure mentally they were just ready to have a little bit of space for a while. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I would think so. I should ask Jim Lovell that. I never have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly very unique experience for them, but did, as you say, pave the way for the future flights. Critical step.\\n\\n Now, had you worked, going back a step, had you worked on Gemini V also?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.551377801617665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was a pretty exciting mission, too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly a lot that could be learned off of that one. Luckily, I guess, all the experience and training both of the flight controllers and of the flight crew was able to pay off to make that able to come together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was a good test of what we had trained for, and once the decision was made, and it was made by the book and by the rules, and once it was made, it was just, \"Let's go do it.\" The system worked, and as you said, it did point out the benefit of the training that we'd had and all the simulations that we had run. So we tried to look on the positive side of all of that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Always a good thing to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Time to go work on the next flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right, work on the next one and make sure that what happened before doesn't happen again."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.612642001797404, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was a good test of what we had trained for, and once the decision was made, and it was made by the book and by the rules, and once it was made, it was just, \"Let's go do it.\" The system worked, and as you said, it did point out the benefit of the training that we'd had and all the simulations that we had run. So we tried to look on the positive side of all of that. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Always a good thing to do."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Time to go work on the next flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right, work on the next one and make sure that what happened before doesn't happen again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the next one was Gemini IX. Were you involved with that mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 20.632891360243708, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, the next one was Gemini IX. Were you involved with that mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I was on some shift in the control center, either as a Retro [or as a FDO]—I guess for all of the Gemini and Apollo missions and as we discussed in Mercury, in a back room staff support room thing. But I don't remember—I didn't do the launch phase and the rendezvous on [Gemini] IX. That's when we had what became known as the \"angry alligator,\" I guess. We lost a target vehicle called the ATDA, augmented target docking adapter, I think, or apparatus. Adapter, I guess it was. ATDA, anyway. We launched it a couple days ahead of the IX mission, and it had a shroud, a two-piece nose cone over the docking mechanism, and it failed to release completely, so once again we weren't able to actually dock. But we did do a very successful rendezvous.\\n\\n Because I'm a trajectory guy, I always thought that the rendezvous is the complicated part. If you get them up there within twenty feet, if they can't dock, that's like navigating somebody across the whole United States. If you get them within a block and they can't find a parking space, that's their problem. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds reasonable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I mean, I don't mean to belittle the importance of docking and the development of the hardware that had to go into that, but that wasn't my area anyway. I thought, well, at least we did the rendezvous part, we'll get this docking [thing] figured out here one of these days. We just kept having a problem with the target vehicle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, a lot of these later Gemini missions, like IX, X, XI, and XII, were testing various different rendezvous methods. Can you talk about some of those and how they were important for Apollo especially? Some of them were they would go up and dock within one orbit basically, and others where they'd have different approaches. Were you involved much in that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.675236926539473, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I feel very fortunate to have worked for him. One of the best things that ever happened to me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. It certainly does seem to have worked out well for you. I'm going to go ahead and pause right now and change out our tape."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We've talked pretty well about Gemini and covered most of the big details about it. Is there anything that you can think of that we didn't cover, that we might have needed to on any of the missions or any of the events going on during the Gemini program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think we pretty much covered it. At least I can't think of anything else right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can always come back to it later if we do.\\n\\n At the end of Gemini, you were promoted and became the head of the flight dynamics officer section. Did this have a lot of changes in what you were doing, or did this just add a couple extra responsibilities?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.861374362821635, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. We've talked pretty well about Gemini and covered most of the big details about it. Is there anything that you can think of that we didn't cover, that we might have needed to on any of the missions or any of the events going on during the Gemini program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think we pretty much covered it. At least I can't think of anything else right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can always come back to it later if we do.\\n\\n At the end of Gemini, you were promoted and became the head of the flight dynamics officer section. Did this have a lot of changes in what you were doing, or did this just add a couple extra responsibilities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn't really make that much of a change. It made me the boss of all of the FDOs, but we still worked as a team. Yes, it gave me a few more administrative duties, but it really didn't—I mean, I liked it. It was a title and probably a grade increase or something, but as far as the work that went on in the control center in supporting the missions, it didn't make that much of a difference."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "With the change from Gemini to Apollo, you mentioned that sometimes during the Gemini program you'd be running simulations for the Apollo missions and, of course, doing various planning along the way. What major changes were there, though, to the control room itself, or to even the training process, from one program to the next?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.667658992854584, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It didn't really change a lot. We already knew what kind of launch vehicle we were going to have. We had the specifications. It couldn't have been completely built yet.\\n\\n We knew, for example, that we had a launch escape tower once again, like we had had in Mercury. So that gave us the capability to look at the possible regions of failure in the launch phase; engines out, guidance systems failures that would carry [you] into unsafe regimes, and to design abort modes which would involve either using the escape tower or separating from the booster and landing the command module by itself in different parts of the Atlantic Ocean.\\n\\n Then, of course, as the hardware was actually built and tested and we had to refine that a little bit, the exact parameters, but the basic abort modes stayed essentially the same all throughout the program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's interesting that you mentioned that you'd already been planning for the escape tower when you were first working on this, but yet then for Gemini they ended up using the ejection seats. Do you recall, even though it wasn't your direct area of focus, any of the discussion on that and how that came about?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not specifically. As I recall, it was basically as simple as nobody really liked the escape tower; it added more weight. Astronauts were test pilots in those days and they were used to ejection seats, so I kind of think that in Gemini they just decided they would try the ejection seats and very quickly decided that was not a very good solution either, and then for Apollo went back to the escape tower. But, as you said, I really wasn't involved in any of that decision-making."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it worked out for both programs all right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and fortunately we never had to use any of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's probably a very good thing all around."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 37.408509992060644, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not specifically. As I recall, it was basically as simple as nobody really liked the escape tower; it added more weight. Astronauts were test pilots in those days and they were used to ejection seats, so I kind of think that in Gemini they just decided they would try the ejection seats and very quickly decided that was not a very good solution either, and then for Apollo went back to the escape tower. But, as you said, I really wasn't involved in any of that decision-making."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it worked out for both programs all right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and fortunately we never had to use any of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's probably a very good thing all around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 6 was your first flight as FDO for the Apollo program, is that correct, or was there one before that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 38.23167776895627, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and fortunately we never had to use any of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think that's probably a very good thing all around."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 6 was your first flight as FDO for the Apollo program, is that correct, or was there one before that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, by this time I was chief of the flight dynamics branch and therefore over all the Retros, FDOs and GUIDOs, and, yes, I had worked most of the unmanned flights, or at least a couple of them as either the prime FDO or as a backup, usually in a backup role. Apollo 6, as I recall, Jay [H.] Greene was the prime FDO on that flight and I backed him up, but that's where we had a problem with the cross-wiring of the engines. I'm not sure that I ever—I was there, but I don't think I ever took the console in a prime position on Apollo 6. That's my recollection, anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that works. You probably remember better than what I have anyway. It was certainly an interesting mission. There were, as you mentioned, a couple interesting glitches that eventually did get worked out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 40.25741974328474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 6 was your first flight as FDO for the Apollo program, is that correct, or was there one before that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, by this time I was chief of the flight dynamics branch and therefore over all the Retros, FDOs and GUIDOs, and, yes, I had worked most of the unmanned flights, or at least a couple of them as either the prime FDO or as a backup, usually in a backup role. Apollo 6, as I recall, Jay [H.] Greene was the prime FDO on that flight and I backed him up, but that's where we had a problem with the cross-wiring of the engines. I'm not sure that I ever—I was there, but I don't think I ever took the console in a prime position on Apollo 6. That's my recollection, anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that works. You probably remember better than what I have anyway. It was certainly an interesting mission. There were, as you mentioned, a couple interesting glitches that eventually did get worked out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, the Saturn V was a pretty enormous vehicle. Of course, with the FDO being concerned about the launch phase, the proper functioning of all of the engines and the various abort modes and all of that, it was a lot more complicated than it was back with the Atlas. But overall, it worked pretty well. We had a few problems with it. It had some pogo effect in the early flights, where it was kind of bouncing up and down, and a few development problems, but by and large, when we needed it, it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly did. It had an excellent record, especially in comparison with the Atlas."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 44.73046638142749, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, by this time I was chief of the flight dynamics branch and therefore over all the Retros, FDOs and GUIDOs, and, yes, I had worked most of the unmanned flights, or at least a couple of them as either the prime FDO or as a backup, usually in a backup role. Apollo 6, as I recall, Jay [H.] Greene was the prime FDO on that flight and I backed him up, but that's where we had a problem with the cross-wiring of the engines. I'm not sure that I ever—I was there, but I don't think I ever took the console in a prime position on Apollo 6. That's my recollection, anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that works. You probably remember better than what I have anyway. It was certainly an interesting mission. There were, as you mentioned, a couple interesting glitches that eventually did get worked out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, the Saturn V was a pretty enormous vehicle. Of course, with the FDO being concerned about the launch phase, the proper functioning of all of the engines and the various abort modes and all of that, it was a lot more complicated than it was back with the Atlas. But overall, it worked pretty well. We had a few problems with it. It had some pogo effect in the early flights, where it was kind of bouncing up and down, and a few development problems, but by and large, when we needed it, it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly did. It had an excellent record, especially in comparison with the Atlas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Saturns came through all the time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 47.47829597936388, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, the Saturn V was a pretty enormous vehicle. Of course, with the FDO being concerned about the launch phase, the proper functioning of all of the engines and the various abort modes and all of that, it was a lot more complicated than it was back with the Atlas. But overall, it worked pretty well. We had a few problems with it. It had some pogo effect in the early flights, where it was kind of bouncing up and down, and a few development problems, but by and large, when we needed it, it worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It certainly did. It had an excellent record, especially in comparison with the Atlas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Saturns came through all the time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Germans from Huntsville [Marshall Space Flight Center] came through. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Did you then work on Apollo 7? Were you working on console at all for that one, do you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 39.500770294275114, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But Apollo 8, certainly with me, and I think with a large percentage of the flight controllers, is a standout mission in our memories. I've told people, on Apollo 8 we baked the cake; on 11 we just put the icing on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Many people agree with you on that. We've heard very similar—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The interesting thing is, again, unfortunately, most of us didn't realize that until much later. I mean, again, we were so busy, we didn't have time. [It was one of] those frivolous questions, like \"which mission stands out in your mind.\" You say, \"What? I'm busy. Don't bug me now.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "\"I've got a job to do.\"\\n\\n Well, and you did still have the goal in front of you to actually land on the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, but, boy, what a motivation. By this time we knew we were well ahead of the Russians. I mean, we, or at least me personally, I rightfully, as it turned out, suspected that we were ahead, because we were much more visible in what we were doing. Of all of these thousands of things that had to be done to get from here to the Moon, we were clicking them off. The lunar module would be a snap. We'd figured that out. Just go land that little thing. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Apollo 8 certainly was a bold step and a great success, as you've said. Made a big difference for the program ahead, and the lunar module did come along and get up to speed and the next couple of missions tested it out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 43.889744771416794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The interesting thing is, again, unfortunately, most of us didn't realize that until much later. I mean, again, we were so busy, we didn't have time. [It was one of] those frivolous questions, like \"which mission stands out in your mind.\" You say, \"What? I'm busy. Don't bug me now.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "\"I've got a job to do.\"\\n\\n Well, and you did still have the goal in front of you to actually land on the Moon."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, but, boy, what a motivation. By this time we knew we were well ahead of the Russians. I mean, we, or at least me personally, I rightfully, as it turned out, suspected that we were ahead, because we were much more visible in what we were doing. Of all of these thousands of things that had to be done to get from here to the Moon, we were clicking them off. The lunar module would be a snap. We'd figured that out. Just go land that little thing. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Apollo 8 certainly was a bold step and a great success, as you've said. Made a big difference for the program ahead, and the lunar module did come along and get up to speed and the next couple of missions tested it out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Worked wonderful, yes, obviously."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any particular thoughts that you had or reflections on Apollo 9 and 10 and their goals in both testing out both ships in Earth orbit and then with the dress rehearsal for the lunar landing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 40.90745276260738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think John [W.] Young probably had the most fun of anybody driving around on the Moon and even running around. In fact, he scared us sometimes. He didn't worry about falling off the rover or turning it over or even falling down on the Moon by himself. I don't know, that would be a good question to ask all of the astronauts, who do you think really had the most fun [on the Moon]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That is a good question."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it would be John. John is a very serious and sober person, but, boy, I tell you, a lot of it is facade. I mean, he tries to project this image of a dumb Oklahoma guy that doesn't know anything. He's one of the smartest people you ever met, to start with. But, boy, he plays that, \"I'm from the farm and I don't know nothing,\" thing, he really plays that to the hilt. He's gotten a lot of mileage out of that. But he's very serious, but also he is one of the funniest guys you've ever met, as opposed to Conrad, who was always joking. He never was serious. And that's good. But John could be extremely serious and then, boy, the next minute he's a laugh a minute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a personality."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quite a personality."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Toward the end of the Apollo missions, you also took on duties as a range safety coordinator, is that correct?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 45.452725291785974, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it would be John. John is a very serious and sober person, but, boy, I tell you, a lot of it is facade. I mean, he tries to project this image of a dumb Oklahoma guy that doesn't know anything. He's one of the smartest people you ever met, to start with. But, boy, he plays that, \"I'm from the farm and I don't know nothing,\" thing, he really plays that to the hilt. He's gotten a lot of mileage out of that. But he's very serious, but also he is one of the funniest guys you've ever met, as opposed to Conrad, who was always joking. He never was serious. And that's good. But John could be extremely serious and then, boy, the next minute he's a laugh a minute."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Quite a personality."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Quite a personality."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Toward the end of the Apollo missions, you also took on duties as a range safety coordinator, is that correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that started back about at the end of the Gemini program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay, that far back."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yes. But I was surrounded by competence, and that's a luxury that you don't find, unfortunately."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly pretty unique to be able to have that experience, that situation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think that probably the only way to create it again is, like I said, if we get another great challenge, is to get a bunch of guys in their twenties and tell them to go do it, and they'll figure out a way to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, maybe we'll see that happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so. I hope so. I'm not nearly as optimistic as I used to be. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Columbus certainly had his share of difficulties along the way, so maybe we're just in one of those dry spells, and there's hope yet."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:213", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think that probably the only way to create it again is, like I said, if we get another great challenge, is to get a bunch of guys in their twenties and tell them to go do it, and they'll figure out a way to do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, maybe we'll see that happen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hope so. I hope so. I'm not nearly as optimistic as I used to be. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, Columbus certainly had his share of difficulties along the way, so maybe we're just in one of those dry spells, and there's hope yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It just seems a shame that, of course, this is a sign I'm getting old, but it's incredible for me to now meet people who weren't even born at the time we landed on the Moon. It's like a historical event rather than an ongoing thing. In fact, there are even people, \"Oh, did you all really do that, or is that something you made up?\" [Laughter] It's kind of sad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's very sad."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It just seems a shame that, of course, this is a sign I'm getting old, but it's incredible for me to now meet people who weren't even born at the time we landed on the Moon. It's like a historical event rather than an ongoing thing. In fact, there are even people, \"Oh, did you all really do that, or is that something you made up?\" [Laughter] It's kind of sad."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's very sad."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But even on the counterpart, the really young kids that I run into, like here in a couple of weeks I'm going to Austin to talk to an elementary school class, and I've done that a number of times, that just gets me all jived up again, because they are so gung-ho. This is the Grissom Elementary School, and they've had some experiments on the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, you could give them the Mars project and they'd pull it off. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they certainly are still enthused about it, like you said and they've got a lot of ideas, and they certainly do have a lot of experience on their own. They are playing with computers more now than a lot of us have been."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But even on the counterpart, the really young kids that I run into, like here in a couple of weeks I'm going to Austin to talk to an elementary school class, and I've done that a number of times, that just gets me all jived up again, because they are so gung-ho. This is the Grissom Elementary School, and they've had some experiments on the Shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, you could give them the Mars project and they'd pull it off. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they certainly are still enthused about it, like you said and they've got a lot of ideas, and they certainly do have a lot of experience on their own. They are playing with computers more now than a lot of us have been."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I heard something recently that the Air Force has been able to cut back on their training drastically because the people, the recruits they're getting now are so much more qualified, have much better hand-eye coordination than in the past, that they've been able to eliminate or cut back a lot of their in-flight, in-cockpit training time, and they're doing it on the ground with simulators. Like you can buy software and run on your own computer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00036:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In fact, you could give them the Mars project and they'd pull it off. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, they certainly are still enthused about it, like you said and they've got a lot of ideas, and they certainly do have a lot of experience on their own. They are playing with computers more now than a lot of us have been."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I heard something recently that the Air Force has been able to cut back on their training drastically because the people, the recruits they're getting now are so much more qualified, have much better hand-eye coordination than in the past, that they've been able to eliminate or cut back a lot of their in-flight, in-cockpit training time, and they're doing it on the ground with simulators. Like you can buy software and run on your own computer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm sure it's true that kids now that play computer games all day long, they probably have good hand-eye coordination."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Certainly do. Certainly do. Well, I want to thank you very much for sharing all of this with me today. It's been fascinating."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 87.62727800282455, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a flight engineer, and even though there was nothing here at that time that would require those kinds of commitments, they probably felt that—and it may have been a test program because my understanding was there were only three people at that time that were being interviewed to come in as journeymen. One was an electronics guy, one was an electrician, and myself, as a mechanic. I don’t know if it was a test program that they were trying to get underway, but everybody else that came in through the normal ranks came through and participated in an apprentice program. I was looked at a little strangely at times, but kiddingly, of course, and they said, “We spent four years getting in here and you walked in the gate, just got a job the same day.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned your sister-in-law was a chemist out here? That’s interesting. How long had she been out here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mary Ann [Buddie] had probably been here five, six, eight years, something like that, I would think, and then she eventually transferred down to Florida. She’s since passed away, but retired from NASA down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was just kind of an interesting time for women, especially professional women to be with the NACA.\\n\\n You started as a journeyman mechanic, and is this the Propulsion Systems Lab [PSL]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "PSL 1 and 2, yes, that’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us a little bit about the Propulsion Systems Lab and those first days and what you were doing? And what they were doing there at that time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 45, "return_to_go": 103.24355308990684, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "PSL 1 and 2, yes, that’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell us a little bit about the Propulsion Systems Lab and those first days and what you were doing? And what they were doing there at that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were in the process of testing the Navajo Rocket Engine Program. All of a sudden, one night we were setting up for a run, and people came in and said the run has been scrubbed. This was like just when the Russians sent up their Sputnik."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "1957."}, {"role": "user", "content": "1957. Overnight, we became NASA, and prior to that, we were NACA, running rocket and jet engine programs in PSL 1 and 2."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Talk about your first days there, and what kind of training you had as a journeyman, and maybe some of what you were doing when you first started?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 26.758206049055588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Outside of a few little minor surgeries here and there, yes, it’s been a lot of fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t mind, I want to go back to that first position at the PSL 1 and 2. You mentioned that they wanted you on that second shift. What hours were the shifts at that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was 7:00 to 3:30, and 3:00 to 11:00, and 11:00 to 7:00."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were on that afternoon shift."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and they rotated every two weeks, so I got a chance to see the daylight as well as the darkness."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Most of the testing was done at night?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 27.509117832283984, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was 7:00 to 3:30, and 3:00 to 11:00, and 11:00 to 7:00."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were on that afternoon shift."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and they rotated every two weeks, so I got a chance to see the daylight as well as the darkness."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Most of the testing was done at night?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, because of the power requirements. CEI [Cleveland Electric Illuminating Company] had to wait till people were going to bed and turning their lights off and those kinds of power requirements were dropping off so that they could supply us with enough power to run some of the facilities. They used a lot of power."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned that you went back to school during that time, but you didn’t finish. How did you work that out, and work full-time, and then go to school?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.26774906911024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If they put any new valve or any tubing in or anything like that, what they would normally do is they’d flush it and clean it as well as they could that way, and then, in a closed system, they would induce a very diluted quantity of fluorine. Then, they’d go along and feel the lines to see if there was any burning going on inside. Wouldn’t be enough fluorine to explode, but it would be enough to burn. If the lines were all clear, then we never had to open them up again, which we very seldom wanted to open because any time you’d open it, you’d have to go through this whole procedure again of checking out and making sure that the fluorine was going to have a very clean—very clean—environment to operate in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were running the tests, did you have to vent substances, different things, out into the atmosphere? Or was everything contained?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, pretty much contained because the stuff was, I forget now just how many parts per million it was before it was hazardous to you. If you could smell it, it was too much, for that particular program. There were other programs where you’d vent things, but not fluorine, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "These other programs, things would have to be vented?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was just something that was a controlled venting?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.741943410122488, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, pretty much contained because the stuff was, I forget now just how many parts per million it was before it was hazardous to you. If you could smell it, it was too much, for that particular program. There were other programs where you’d vent things, but not fluorine, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "These other programs, things would have to be vented?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was just something that was a controlled venting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hydrogen and oxygen, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If everything was run at night, was it very noisy?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.268826011247208, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was just something that was a controlled venting?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hydrogen and oxygen, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If everything was run at night, was it very noisy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. Quite often, we would get complaints from people calling in to the front office and saying, “You guys were running last night, it was very, very noisy, is there anything you can do about it?”\\n\\n We said, “Well, it’s either test or no test,” but the neighbors were pretty good about that. I’m sure they had to put up with a little inconvenience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine the open houses maybe helped with some of the complaints, maybe."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.96536223471912, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hydrogen and oxygen, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If everything was run at night, was it very noisy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. Quite often, we would get complaints from people calling in to the front office and saying, “You guys were running last night, it was very, very noisy, is there anything you can do about it?”\\n\\n We said, “Well, it’s either test or no test,” but the neighbors were pretty good about that. I’m sure they had to put up with a little inconvenience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine the open houses maybe helped with some of the complaints, maybe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think that might have been in the background of minds of some of the management people, to think that we’d get more people involved and be appreciative of this noise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that time period when you first came out here, you were relatively young, I would think—early twenties, maybe?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.85040248302124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it was. Quite often, we would get complaints from people calling in to the front office and saying, “You guys were running last night, it was very, very noisy, is there anything you can do about it?”\\n\\n We said, “Well, it’s either test or no test,” but the neighbors were pretty good about that. I’m sure they had to put up with a little inconvenience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I imagine the open houses maybe helped with some of the complaints, maybe."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think that might have been in the background of minds of some of the management people, to think that we’d get more people involved and be appreciative of this noise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that time period when you first came out here, you were relatively young, I would think—early twenties, maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, about 23."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were married already and starting a family?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.944891647801377, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think that might have been in the background of minds of some of the management people, to think that we’d get more people involved and be appreciative of this noise."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At that time period when you first came out here, you were relatively young, I would think—early twenties, maybe?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, about 23."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were married already and starting a family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, just married."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they have a lot of activities at that point? I know some of the other Centers, especially during that NACA time, so many people after the war were coming in, and they would have parties and they would have gatherings and things like that. Was there a lot of that going on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 22.160990719779306, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, about 23."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were married already and starting a family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, just married."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did they have a lot of activities at that point? I know some of the other Centers, especially during that NACA time, so many people after the war were coming in, and they would have parties and they would have gatherings and things like that. Was there a lot of that going on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. And the retirement parties were outrageous. The shops would all get together. When our director of retired, he was, I guess, of Viking background, or somewhere back in there. They took the main cafeteria and we built a whole half-section of a Viking ship. One of the guys’ wives was in costuming, on the outside, and she made these hats with the horns, the Viking horns, and they had big, long rudders and oars. It was a real production. Of course, then all of the divisions would make presentations to them.\\n\\n When I retired, they knew I was into golf a lot, and so they went to one of the local golf courses and asked them if they could borrow a golf cart, and they said, “We’ll clean it all up and return it in good shape,” so I guess they got it. My wife and I and family and everybody came for my retirement party, which was at the main cafeteria. They introduced us, they said, “It’s only appropriate that you have a green jacket.” So they had a green jacket for me, and my wife and I got in a cart. They had trails of sand on the floor in the cafeteria, and little greens for different spots. You’d go to the first green and maybe this division would have a representative there, and they’d make a presentation. Then, you’d go to the next one, and they’d give you a presentation, and so forth and so on. By the time you’d get through, I’m not sure how many holes they had—they must have had like five or six in there—it was kind of a fun night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds wonderful."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.60050406916523, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody, every event, the next one up had to be bigger and better. We had a lot of fun in those days. It was a real pleasure, coming to work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s wonderful. Did they have events for families, too, when your kids were little?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the families were included in these things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so they had picnics and different things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Retirement parties, and Christmastime, I was part of the Christmas celebrating committee, we had Jack Frost, and he had a little presentation up on stage in the DEB [Development Engineering Building] across Brookpark [Road], here. They have a little play, and the kids were all up there with their parents. After the play was over with, then Jack Frost is running around throughout—one of the employees, naturally. Then, everybody would go downstairs to the cafeteria and have ice cream. There were an awful lot of social activities going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it was a family atmosphere, everybody was close. Different areas, I would imagine, had to work together for different testing and different projects that were going on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.77833785462803, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the families were included in these things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so they had picnics and different things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Retirement parties, and Christmastime, I was part of the Christmas celebrating committee, we had Jack Frost, and he had a little presentation up on stage in the DEB [Development Engineering Building] across Brookpark [Road], here. They have a little play, and the kids were all up there with their parents. After the play was over with, then Jack Frost is running around throughout—one of the employees, naturally. Then, everybody would go downstairs to the cafeteria and have ice cream. There were an awful lot of social activities going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it was a family atmosphere, everybody was close. Different areas, I would imagine, had to work together for different testing and different projects that were going on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was more like a family kind of event thing. There were some tests that, of necessity, that facility had the capability of developing those kinds of test parameters, so that project would go over there. It would depend on, like, at Zero-G, anything that had zero-gravity associated with it, people would bring projects over, and we would run tests for them over there, also."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In these facilities like the PSL and Zero-G, as part of the Technical Services Group, when they had these projects that they were going to run testing, were you involved in the process of getting things ready or designing the way it was going to be tested in those facilities? When did you come in, as far as what was going on?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.488453415918087, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and it was like that—[snaps fingers]—instantaneous. We were ready to go one night, and five minutes later, we were dead in the water, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a sense of, “We have to hurry up and get this done because they’re ahead of us now?” Was that the feeling here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think—initially, of course, as the momentum picked up and more and more people became involved. Up until then, each of the NASA Centers almost operated independently of the other ones. There was kind of a competition, as to who was going to run what. Some, like Ames or Langley, had huge, huge facilities that you could put an airplane in. Their claim to fame was airframe structures and airplane components. They couldn’t go to the altitude that we could go to, but we couldn’t put a big airplane or a rocket of a big size in our test chambers. That’s why PSL 3 and 4 eventually became built up and online.\\n\\n Each of the Centers had their own specialty. Icing research was pretty much Lewis—we have an Icing Research Tunnel here, and the only other similar facility, we were told, at that time, I think it was in Russia or some foreign companies. Companies, even airplane manufacturing companies, were interested in bringing samples of their wing structures or some other nacelle part, and putting it in our Icing Research Tunnel to see how their de-icing equipment would work. We could simulate, we could actually make ice form on the wings, or whatever. There was that kind of camaraderie, but it was still pretty much independent. In other words, if there was a big airplane engine program coming along, everybody pretty much knew that Lewis was going to be the engine people. That was our forte, engines and propulsion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s what you started focusing on, as far as the propulsion, for the early work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what their whole career was, here, was propulsion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you start on next? Everything stopped with Sputnik."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.542726017686764, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t think—initially, of course, as the momentum picked up and more and more people became involved. Up until then, each of the NASA Centers almost operated independently of the other ones. There was kind of a competition, as to who was going to run what. Some, like Ames or Langley, had huge, huge facilities that you could put an airplane in. Their claim to fame was airframe structures and airplane components. They couldn’t go to the altitude that we could go to, but we couldn’t put a big airplane or a rocket of a big size in our test chambers. That’s why PSL 3 and 4 eventually became built up and online.\\n\\n Each of the Centers had their own specialty. Icing research was pretty much Lewis—we have an Icing Research Tunnel here, and the only other similar facility, we were told, at that time, I think it was in Russia or some foreign companies. Companies, even airplane manufacturing companies, were interested in bringing samples of their wing structures or some other nacelle part, and putting it in our Icing Research Tunnel to see how their de-icing equipment would work. We could simulate, we could actually make ice form on the wings, or whatever. There was that kind of camaraderie, but it was still pretty much independent. In other words, if there was a big airplane engine program coming along, everybody pretty much knew that Lewis was going to be the engine people. That was our forte, engines and propulsion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s what you started focusing on, as far as the propulsion, for the early work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what their whole career was, here, was propulsion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you start on next? Everything stopped with Sputnik."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then, rocket engines came in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so it was the rockets for the launch engines?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.71414001965196, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s what their whole career was, here, was propulsion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you start on next? Everything stopped with Sputnik."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then, rocket engines came in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so it was the rockets for the launch engines?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. They weren’t that big. We started out with smaller ones because the facility would only hold so much, plus the thrust capability of some of these new rockets that were coming along was so great that our facilities were limited in what they could handle. I think that may have propelled the PSL 3 and 4 to really get going. They were bigger and had a little more capacity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After they announced the original seven astronauts and they had that gimbal facility here and they had to train here, do you remember any excitement or anything going on, as far as when those astronauts were coming through, and during that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.571266688502178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then, rocket engines came in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so it was the rockets for the launch engines?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. They weren’t that big. We started out with smaller ones because the facility would only hold so much, plus the thrust capability of some of these new rockets that were coming along was so great that our facilities were limited in what they could handle. I think that may have propelled the PSL 3 and 4 to really get going. They were bigger and had a little more capacity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After they announced the original seven astronauts and they had that gimbal facility here and they had to train here, do you remember any excitement or anything going on, as far as when those astronauts were coming through, and during that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Where the Centaur Vehicle was tested was at one end of this tunnel, and at the other end was a huge area of tunnel. The gimbal rig was constructed over in that side, and the astronauts were brought here to sit in this chair and go through this gimballing thing. They had a picture of the Moon on the wall of the tunnel, and the guys would get in there, strapped in their seats, and they had little nitrogen jets that they could manipulate in order to simulate where they were going. They’d get them into a kind of a free fall—they were going all kinds of crazy ways. It was their job, then, to try and hit the right button at the right time, so that that little jet of propulsion would slow it down, and then maybe back it up and then square it away, so he was then able to concentrate on the thing. John [H.] Glenn, every time he would come here after that, and even later on, years later on, in some of his presentations, he’d always say the same thing. He said, “When I came here to Lewis the first time and they put me in that chair, I got sick. As a result, every time I drive down Brookpark Road, I get a little queasy.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine. That doesn’t sound like something I’d want to do, not at all."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:108", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.1349137802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not really. The only people that might have been involved would be maybe somebody out at the hangar that might have been involved in the [Shuttle Carrier] Aircraft, that 747 that was converted over in order to carry the Shuttle, but I don’t recall us being involved in structurally building and fabricating the bracketry that went on top of the 747 in order to support the Shuttle. I think that was all probably done at Ames or one of the more airplane-involved flight-type programs. They’re in a better weather situation, and although we’ve had several aircraft programs, like icing research and stuff, we were very heavy in that—still are, I guess. Some of the zero-gravity stuff, but that was all taken over by the big [KC-135 Zero-Gravity Program aircraft], where you see pictures of people floating around in there. It was good for PR [public relations]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned you traveled to some of the other Centers. Was that to see the facilities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was more for meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t know if you went to see any of the other chambers or test facilities and how they were run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, specifically. We went out to San Antonio [Texas]. The Center Director was friends with the commanding officer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the Air Force base?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:110", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 7.927681978, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was more for meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I didn’t know if you went to see any of the other chambers or test facilities and how they were run."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, specifically. We went out to San Antonio [Texas]. The Center Director was friends with the commanding officer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the Air Force base?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We loaded up the Convair [aircraft] that we had—I think there were about 12 or 15 of us that flew out there. Really, the good part I got out of the whole meeting was they took us for rides down through the water, and we had dinner down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the [San Antonio] River?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:112", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.69742442, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, specifically. We went out to San Antonio [Texas]. The Center Director was friends with the commanding officer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the Air Force base?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We loaded up the Convair [aircraft] that we had—I think there were about 12 or 15 of us that flew out there. Really, the good part I got out of the whole meeting was they took us for rides down through the water, and we had dinner down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the [San Antonio] River?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We had a meeting the following morning, I guess to justify the flight, you know how that is. I haven’t spent any time or any involvement with any of the other Centers, other than just going to various Centers for meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As part of the Technical Services, did you talk with people with Technical Services? Like, at Langley, Jack [A.] Kinzler, and then he went to JSC [Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas]? Did you ever have any involvement with these other Centers that had that same division?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:114", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.5526938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We loaded up the Convair [aircraft] that we had—I think there were about 12 or 15 of us that flew out there. Really, the good part I got out of the whole meeting was they took us for rides down through the water, and we had dinner down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On the [San Antonio] River?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We had a meeting the following morning, I guess to justify the flight, you know how that is. I haven’t spent any time or any involvement with any of the other Centers, other than just going to various Centers for meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As part of the Technical Services, did you talk with people with Technical Services? Like, at Langley, Jack [A.] Kinzler, and then he went to JSC [Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas]? Did you ever have any involvement with these other Centers that had that same division?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe at the upper management level they did, but I didn’t feel that we relied on or depended on any other Center for much, and we had a couple of Center Directors who were really, really sharp guys, and they were really, really Lewis. If somebody knew something more than they did, that was not the information they wanted. There was a lot of competition, this program going up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t mind, for a minute, just think about what do you think is your most significant contribution in your career with NACA and NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:116", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.391882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We had a meeting the following morning, I guess to justify the flight, you know how that is. I haven’t spent any time or any involvement with any of the other Centers, other than just going to various Centers for meetings."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As part of the Technical Services, did you talk with people with Technical Services? Like, at Langley, Jack [A.] Kinzler, and then he went to JSC [Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas]? Did you ever have any involvement with these other Centers that had that same division?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Maybe at the upper management level they did, but I didn’t feel that we relied on or depended on any other Center for much, and we had a couple of Center Directors who were really, really sharp guys, and they were really, really Lewis. If somebody knew something more than they did, that was not the information they wanted. There was a lot of competition, this program going up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you don’t mind, for a minute, just think about what do you think is your most significant contribution in your career with NACA and NASA?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose gravitating to be Assistant to the Center Director. It’s a goal that up until then, I didn’t know of anybody, and I was the first non-college-graduate person type to have an office in the Ad Building, right next to the Center Director, and my own secretary, which was unthinkable when you’re talking about grease monkeys out in the shops, putting parts and pieces together, years ago, and ending up at that point."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you ever think, when you first started out here, did you have that goal? Not necessarily that specific goal, but the goal in mind to keep moving into management and more into those types of positions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:124", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably the most ambitious was that Centaur Program, which drew a lot of attention. We were given this space vehicle, one of a kind. There was no room for any error in judgment or operations. You could destroy a vehicle that cost millions of dollars, and it was irreplaceable, almost, at that time. That and Zero-G were the two most interesting programs and projects that I was involved with. They were both unusual, out of the norm.\\n\\n We were putting jet engines in and firing them off every night, that was no big deal. Now, you had challenges that you’d never experienced before. During the construction of the Zero-G, one of the welders stepped back to check his weld and fell and got killed. It was a very unusual event that was taking place at Lewis at that time, and there was a lot of attention. Of course, you were in the public eye all the time. Everybody wanted to make sure that we didn’t screw things up, and it was a first time—it was the only time—kind of deal. There was a lot of emphasis and a lot of pressure to perform and do the right thing at the right time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you mentioned, when you first started, people didn’t really know what NACA was, or NASA, but then once the space program started, then you’re in the public eye because people are watching. A little bit more pressure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything we haven’t talked about, or anything you want to mention while we’re still going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know—you’ve brought up some things that I hadn’t thought of for years, but it was a great time. I think everybody, up until more recent times, it was more of a family atmosphere. A lot of fun, a lot of work, a lot of hard work, but we came up with a lot of crazy things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No regrets about not getting that degree and taking the path you did?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:126", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sure. I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything we haven’t talked about, or anything you want to mention while we’re still going?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know—you’ve brought up some things that I hadn’t thought of for years, but it was a great time. I think everybody, up until more recent times, it was more of a family atmosphere. A lot of fun, a lot of work, a lot of hard work, but we came up with a lot of crazy things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No regrets about not getting that degree and taking the path you did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like you had a really good career."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:128", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t know—you’ve brought up some things that I hadn’t thought of for years, but it was a great time. I think everybody, up until more recent times, it was more of a family atmosphere. A lot of fun, a lot of work, a lot of hard work, but we came up with a lot of crazy things to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No regrets about not getting that degree and taking the path you did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like you had a really good career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely an interesting one, that’s for sure, interesting projects."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00971:130", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like you had a really good career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Definitely an interesting one, that’s for sure, interesting projects."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had four kids, and they all were able to get college degrees. One went on and got to be a lawyer, and I have a niece, she must be a brain, she went to Case [Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio] and got an engineering degree, and then she went to Ohio State and got a law degree. She’s out in California, making big bucks. Everybody’s doing well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s good to hear. Thank you for coming in today and talking to us, we really appreciate it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.64616576481684, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I really don’t. I really don’t. But I don’t even remember who designed our—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "T-shirt?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The T-shirts. But whoever did must have come up with the TFNG. I don’t remember who did that. If you ever find out let me know. Somebody might remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think Anna [L.] Fisher thought that Judy [Judith A.] Resnik had drawn that. Maybe Jim [James F.] Buchli."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just like to ask everybody, because different people have different recollections. Your class was so big, I understand, that you were split into two teams."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.606850849796487, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The T-shirts. But whoever did must have come up with the TFNG. I don’t remember who did that. If you ever find out let me know. Somebody might remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think Anna [L.] Fisher thought that Judy [Judith A.] Resnik had drawn that. Maybe Jim [James F.] Buchli."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just like to ask everybody, because different people have different recollections. Your class was so big, I understand, that you were split into two teams."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the red and the blue. I was in the red group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Whose team was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 32.89650094421832, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I just don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just like to ask everybody, because different people have different recollections. Your class was so big, I understand, that you were split into two teams."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the red and the blue. I was in the red group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Whose team was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whose team was that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck or John [M.] Fabian? I understand they were the elders of the group."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 34.32944549357591, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the red and the blue. I was in the red group."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Whose team was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whose team was that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck or John [M.] Fabian? I understand they were the elders of the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think it was Rick, but if you wanted to convince me that it was John, I’d probably believe that too. Obviously I don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that have any sort of impact upon your group having to separate things out?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 37.03271721508435, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Whose team was that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that Rick [Frederick H.] Hauck or John [M.] Fabian? I understand they were the elders of the group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I think it was Rick, but if you wanted to convince me that it was John, I’d probably believe that too. Obviously I don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that have any sort of impact upon your group having to separate things out?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. It was a nice little bit of rivalry sometimes. We would have the baseball games and food fights at parties and things, the reds versus the blues. But it certainly didn’t have any impact on crew selection or the really important job assignments and stuff. Those were pretty much independent."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was your first officemate when you came into the office?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 39.03296361230004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did, the so-called charm school. I don’t honestly remember how far into our training they did that. But they contracted with one of these training organizations that comes in and gives you an intense two-day crash course in how to deal with the media. It was quite good. I think most everybody who went through it felt that they had a lot of useful hints about preparing certain talking points in advance and how to fend off microphones that are being shoved in your face. There’s a lot of little tricks of the trade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Our research indicates that you worked with Story Musgrave for your first on-the-job training activity. Do you recall what you did under his tutelage?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought that I worked my first on-the-job training—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We never know if things changed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let’s see. What did they say my first on-the-job training was? Do you remember?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn’t know. We have a sheet where everyone has been assigned to an astronaut, and you and Ellison [S.] Onizuka were assigned to Story."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 41.14773734700004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought that I worked my first on-the-job training—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We never know if things changed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let’s see. What did they say my first on-the-job training was? Do you remember?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn’t know. We have a sheet where everyone has been assigned to an astronaut, and you and Ellison [S.] Onizuka were assigned to Story."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because the first one I remember working with at all closely was Karl [G.] Henize, because I was working on the instrument pointing system [IPS], which was an astronomical type thing. So that made sense because Karl was an astronomer, and I was an astronomer.\\n\\n My first T-38 ride was with Story. I’ll never forget that, that’s for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Will you tell us about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 44.608597052222265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, let’s see. What did they say my first on-the-job training was? Do you remember?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They didn’t know. We have a sheet where everyone has been assigned to an astronaut, and you and Ellison [S.] Onizuka were assigned to Story."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because the first one I remember working with at all closely was Karl [G.] Henize, because I was working on the instrument pointing system [IPS], which was an astronomical type thing. So that made sense because Karl was an astronomer, and I was an astronomer.\\n\\n My first T-38 ride was with Story. I’ll never forget that, that’s for sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Will you tell us about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, he took off in full afterburners and climbed. Probably we were only going up at about 30 degrees, but I felt like I was in a rocket going straight up. It was really exciting. Story is a good pilot. He’s a unique guy. I’ve spent a lot of time with Story. He’s an interesting person, to say the least. I like him. He’s a good astronaut. So I’ve talked with him a lot over the years. I absolutely don’t remember the initial on-the-job training, what it would have been. He was also a skydiver like I was. We discovered that we had taken our first jump with the same instructor, which was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about your work with Karl."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 40.2040628160041, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I tried to get the second shift, from 4:00 until midnight, so that I could go and get some good beach time during the day, that’s what I tried to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long were you out there for when you would fly out to California?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Typically a week. Occasionally we’d be out for two weeks and I’d stay over the weekend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there housing provided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We stayed in the Empire Motel, I remember. Mrs. Chen ran the Empire Motel. We all got to know her. She was very nice to us. I don’t want to call it a fleabag, because it was clean and everything. But it was a very simple Motel 6 type place. We were on pretty small government per diem. Nothing fancy. You get a rental car. We’d fly in to usually El Toro Marine Air Base [California]. That was the famous base in Independence Day that got wiped out by the aliens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, was it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 42.448958684448996, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Typically a week. Occasionally we’d be out for two weeks and I’d stay over the weekend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there housing provided?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We stayed in the Empire Motel, I remember. Mrs. Chen ran the Empire Motel. We all got to know her. She was very nice to us. I don’t want to call it a fleabag, because it was clean and everything. But it was a very simple Motel 6 type place. We were on pretty small government per diem. Nothing fancy. You get a rental car. We’d fly in to usually El Toro Marine Air Base [California]. That was the famous base in Independence Day that got wiped out by the aliens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then they had a kind of a Rent-a-Wreck rental car there. So we’d get our cars and drive out to Downey. Like I say, I enjoyed it because during the day I’d go swim on the beach. In the evening I’d work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who else was working shifts with you, do you recall?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 47.16550964938777, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We stayed in the Empire Motel, I remember. Mrs. Chen ran the Empire Motel. We all got to know her. She was very nice to us. I don’t want to call it a fleabag, because it was clean and everything. But it was a very simple Motel 6 type place. We were on pretty small government per diem. Nothing fancy. You get a rental car. We’d fly in to usually El Toro Marine Air Base [California]. That was the famous base in Independence Day that got wiped out by the aliens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, was it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then they had a kind of a Rent-a-Wreck rental car there. So we’d get our cars and drive out to Downey. Like I say, I enjoyed it because during the day I’d go swim on the beach. In the evening I’d work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who else was working shifts with you, do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was one astronaut at a time, and then they had their own test pilot, whose name I don’t remember, but he was a very friendly guy. He’d been doing it for a long time. So it was nice to work with people who knew what they were doing. The two of us would work together. For me it was probably more educational, because I didn’t know a whole lot about the procedures or anything. So it was a great opportunity to learn and just get comfortable sitting in a Shuttle cockpit simulator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was the FSL different from the SAIL, or were they pretty comparable?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 52.40612183265308, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Then they had a kind of a Rent-a-Wreck rental car there. So we’d get our cars and drive out to Downey. Like I say, I enjoyed it because during the day I’d go swim on the beach. In the evening I’d work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who else was working shifts with you, do you recall?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was one astronaut at a time, and then they had their own test pilot, whose name I don’t remember, but he was a very friendly guy. He’d been doing it for a long time. So it was nice to work with people who knew what they were doing. The two of us would work together. For me it was probably more educational, because I didn’t know a whole lot about the procedures or anything. So it was a great opportunity to learn and just get comfortable sitting in a Shuttle cockpit simulator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was the FSL different from the SAIL, or were they pretty comparable?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were very similar, very similar. It didn’t have quite the same physical layout that the SAIL did, but I guess there was so much software that had to be verified that they couldn’t do it all in the SAIL. So the SAIL did mostly the ascent software. The FSL did the on-orbit and the entry software."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned that you worked on the OMS pods and the RCS systems. At what stage were they when you started working those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 57.11791314739231, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was one astronaut at a time, and then they had their own test pilot, whose name I don’t remember, but he was a very friendly guy. He’d been doing it for a long time. So it was nice to work with people who knew what they were doing. The two of us would work together. For me it was probably more educational, because I didn’t know a whole lot about the procedures or anything. So it was a great opportunity to learn and just get comfortable sitting in a Shuttle cockpit simulator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How was the FSL different from the SAIL, or were they pretty comparable?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were very similar, very similar. It didn’t have quite the same physical layout that the SAIL did, but I guess there was so much software that had to be verified that they couldn’t do it all in the SAIL. So the SAIL did mostly the ascent software. The FSL did the on-orbit and the entry software."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned that you worked on the OMS pods and the RCS systems. At what stage were they when you started working those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were pretty well developed. Astronauts get assigned to a lot of the different systems. Then the idea would be when they would have engineering reviews, you would just go and just see is there anything funny going on that we should know about. Tragically, nobody was ever assigned to work the solid rocket boosters, so when Challenger came around—we had lots of people paying attention to the main engines, because everybody knew about turbine cracks and potential pump problems. But the general feeling about the solid boosters [was] that solids don’t fail and there’s not much you can do about it. So no astronaut was ever to my knowledge assigned specifically to cover the solid rocket boosters, tragically, because had we known what was going on there, things might have been different. But you never know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of our research—again we don’t know if it’s accurate or not—indicates that you worked on prox ops [proximity operations]. Did you do any work with that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 63.46434794154701, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were very similar, very similar. It didn’t have quite the same physical layout that the SAIL did, but I guess there was so much software that had to be verified that they couldn’t do it all in the SAIL. So the SAIL did mostly the ascent software. The FSL did the on-orbit and the entry software."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned that you worked on the OMS pods and the RCS systems. At what stage were they when you started working those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were pretty well developed. Astronauts get assigned to a lot of the different systems. Then the idea would be when they would have engineering reviews, you would just go and just see is there anything funny going on that we should know about. Tragically, nobody was ever assigned to work the solid rocket boosters, so when Challenger came around—we had lots of people paying attention to the main engines, because everybody knew about turbine cracks and potential pump problems. But the general feeling about the solid boosters [was] that solids don’t fail and there’s not much you can do about it. So no astronaut was ever to my knowledge assigned specifically to cover the solid rocket boosters, tragically, because had we known what was going on there, things might have been different. But you never know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of our research—again we don’t know if it’s accurate or not—indicates that you worked on prox ops [proximity operations]. Did you do any work with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s right. That may have been one of the first things. Dave Griggs and I got assigned to work on-orbit, that’s right. They were developing the Shuttle engineering simulator, and so we got involved in setting the requirements for the orbital simulations. Yes that’s right, I remember that. That was probably the first independent assignment that I got, now that I think back on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you set those requirements?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 70.51594215727445, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were pretty well developed. Astronauts get assigned to a lot of the different systems. Then the idea would be when they would have engineering reviews, you would just go and just see is there anything funny going on that we should know about. Tragically, nobody was ever assigned to work the solid rocket boosters, so when Challenger came around—we had lots of people paying attention to the main engines, because everybody knew about turbine cracks and potential pump problems. But the general feeling about the solid boosters [was] that solids don’t fail and there’s not much you can do about it. So no astronaut was ever to my knowledge assigned specifically to cover the solid rocket boosters, tragically, because had we known what was going on there, things might have been different. But you never know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of our research—again we don’t know if it’s accurate or not—indicates that you worked on prox ops [proximity operations]. Did you do any work with that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s right. That may have been one of the first things. Dave Griggs and I got assigned to work on-orbit, that’s right. They were developing the Shuttle engineering simulator, and so we got involved in setting the requirements for the orbital simulations. Yes that’s right, I remember that. That was probably the first independent assignment that I got, now that I think back on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you set those requirements?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to try to talk to the other astronauts and find out what it was that they expected the Shuttle to be doing once it got to orbit. So what did we want the simulator to be able to duplicate? It became pretty clear. The rendezvous and proximity operations were the most critical thing that had to be tested. So we worked a lot on that.\\n\\n Again, the people who were designing the simulator knew a lot more about it than we did. But our job was just as operators to make sure that the things that we felt that we would need to get out of the simulator it would be capable of providing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any major challenges that you had to overcome?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 76.12882461919384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that’s right. That may have been one of the first things. Dave Griggs and I got assigned to work on-orbit, that’s right. They were developing the Shuttle engineering simulator, and so we got involved in setting the requirements for the orbital simulations. Yes that’s right, I remember that. That was probably the first independent assignment that I got, now that I think back on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you set those requirements?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to try to talk to the other astronauts and find out what it was that they expected the Shuttle to be doing once it got to orbit. So what did we want the simulator to be able to duplicate? It became pretty clear. The rendezvous and proximity operations were the most critical thing that had to be tested. So we worked a lot on that.\\n\\n Again, the people who were designing the simulator knew a lot more about it than we did. But our job was just as operators to make sure that the things that we felt that we would need to get out of the simulator it would be capable of providing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any major challenges that you had to overcome?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, because it was not fundamentally different from other simulators that had been built. We understood orbital dynamics. The Shuttle had been modeled already in a mission simulator. It was really a question, since this was not going to be quite as complex as the mission simulator, some of the questions were what do you really need, can we eliminate this or that or the other thing. I don’t really remember technical details of things getting eliminated. In fact, over the long run it became a very very capable simulator. It could do just about anything it had to do. In many ways it was better than the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you also work on Spacelab 2? That was another assignment we had seen."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 81.25424957688203, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had to try to talk to the other astronauts and find out what it was that they expected the Shuttle to be doing once it got to orbit. So what did we want the simulator to be able to duplicate? It became pretty clear. The rendezvous and proximity operations were the most critical thing that had to be tested. So we worked a lot on that.\\n\\n Again, the people who were designing the simulator knew a lot more about it than we did. But our job was just as operators to make sure that the things that we felt that we would need to get out of the simulator it would be capable of providing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any major challenges that you had to overcome?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, because it was not fundamentally different from other simulators that had been built. We understood orbital dynamics. The Shuttle had been modeled already in a mission simulator. It was really a question, since this was not going to be quite as complex as the mission simulator, some of the questions were what do you really need, can we eliminate this or that or the other thing. I don’t really remember technical details of things getting eliminated. In fact, over the long run it became a very very capable simulator. It could do just about anything it had to do. In many ways it was better than the SMS [Shuttle Mission Simulator]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you also work on Spacelab 2? That was another assignment we had seen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was what I was doing with Karl Henize. Yes because that was with the IPS. That probably came a little later. Again, it’s all a blur."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that was over 30 years ago, as you pointed out. Your biosheet also indicates you worked on Shuttle navigation. What did that entail?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 89.67325032000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We alternated. There were three pilots and three mission specialists, and we would alternate. But then probably George Abbey made the assignments. I don’t really know. So Dick and I went to El Paso, and I think Hoot [Robert L.] Gibson, who was the lead on [the team], was with Kathy [Kathryn D.] Sullivan in California. So they actually did the chase. Then the other team would have been in Florida. I don’t remember who was on that. I think Steve [Steven R.] Nagel, [but] I don’t remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any other assignments with STS-4 or STS-3?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not to my recollection. STS-4, I worked with CBS television, and so they sent me to the Cape, which was nice because my father-in-law was visiting from England and so we made a big Florida holiday out of it. Disney World [Orlando] and all that stuff as well as watching the launch. I was with Dan Rather doing the commentary, and they got to be in the VIP [Very Important Persons] stands. So that was good fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must be exciting. Do you have all these clips of your interviews?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’ve got lots of stuff. They’re all in boxes, and God knows what I’m ever going to do with them. Do I really want to listen to an interview from back in 1984? I don’t know. Certainly my kids are never going to do it. So maybe I’ll give it to the Astronaut Hall of Fame. I got inducted into that two years ago, and they said that they would be willing to be guardians of any stuff that I had. Maybe that’s the best thing to do with it. I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t put it in the trash."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00275:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 13, "return_to_go": 99.63694480000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not to my recollection. STS-4, I worked with CBS television, and so they sent me to the Cape, which was nice because my father-in-law was visiting from England and so we made a big Florida holiday out of it. Disney World [Orlando] and all that stuff as well as watching the launch. I was with Dan Rather doing the commentary, and they got to be in the VIP [Very Important Persons] stands. So that was good fun."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must be exciting. Do you have all these clips of your interviews?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I’ve got lots of stuff. They’re all in boxes, and God knows what I’m ever going to do with them. Do I really want to listen to an interview from back in 1984? I don’t know. Certainly my kids are never going to do it. So maybe I’ll give it to the Astronaut Hall of Fame. I got inducted into that two years ago, and they said that they would be willing to be guardians of any stuff that I had. Maybe that’s the best thing to do with it. I don’t know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Don’t put it in the trash."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it’s nice. No, it’s nice. I’ve certainly got lots of scrapbooks and things with newspaper clippings and all that stuff. But we live in a small townhouse, and there’s not enough room for everything."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand you started working on the ASTRO mission in ’82."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00735:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 28.143925489000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, 20/20 hindsight is better on Monday morning. We were all young guys, we thought we could do anything. And we pretty much did everything, except for a few things, few you don’t want to remember. But at that age nothing’s too tough. Everybody was all about that same age. I couldn’t do that anymore, I’m 82 now. Man, I couldn’t do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned one time that flying the Shuttle is very scientific. Could you expand on that, why you feel it’s scientific?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "After having had some insight into the amount of intelligence required and even transcending engineering into science, it almost became a science aspect because of the sophistication of the machine and the way it was put together and the high performance that was driven from the machinery. To me, that smacked almost of science rather than bridge building, and that’s why I alluded to it that way.\\n\\n It was an absolutely outstanding accomplishment. The horsepower-to-weight [ratio] on the engines—it’s just enormous. It’s like 0.5 for a high performance racer, and ours was over 100 or 200 to one, horsepower-to-weight ratio. All of that doesn’t come for free. You’re working in a terrible environment, and you’re stressing things beyond what you normally would stress them to. So it almost became science more than engineering in many respects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember reading that you had said, “It’s not a truck, it was a race car.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have some other notes of contributions that you wanted to talk about today? I think we went over the list that we had prepared, but I didn’t know if there were some other areas that you can think of?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00735:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 30.159917210000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After having had some insight into the amount of intelligence required and even transcending engineering into science, it almost became a science aspect because of the sophistication of the machine and the way it was put together and the high performance that was driven from the machinery. To me, that smacked almost of science rather than bridge building, and that’s why I alluded to it that way.\\n\\n It was an absolutely outstanding accomplishment. The horsepower-to-weight [ratio] on the engines—it’s just enormous. It’s like 0.5 for a high performance racer, and ours was over 100 or 200 to one, horsepower-to-weight ratio. All of that doesn’t come for free. You’re working in a terrible environment, and you’re stressing things beyond what you normally would stress them to. So it almost became science more than engineering in many respects."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I remember reading that you had said, “It’s not a truck, it was a race car.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have some other notes of contributions that you wanted to talk about today? I think we went over the list that we had prepared, but I didn’t know if there were some other areas that you can think of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About Shuttle specifically you mean? I had to spend a little of the time on the other things going on, Skylab and a few other things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had developed a hammer, could you share with us about that tool?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 35.14051443792845, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Viewing original drawing of Mercury]... flying the other way, and then the G forces are either from his head to his foot or his foot to his head, and they're not very tolerant that way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's really neat. I mean, such a beautiful drawing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm amazed I didn't throw it away [original pencil drawing of Mercury]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I'm amazed. Those things you throw away because you –"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you know, when we spoke with Mr. [Jerome \"Jerry\" B.] Hammack a few months ago, he had brought out some of his original photos and everything like that, and he had one of your drawings of Mercury, too. And he said, \"Yes. Mr. Johnson gave this to me,\" and he said he treasured it. So it was really neat to see something like that. It really is."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 46.83198139633532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We see them [the Hammacks] several times a year at little parties. We get together. That gang, you know, we stick fairly close together."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's nice."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Unfortunately, some of us are getting along. A few have died, but for the most part, everyone's in good health."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I'd still like you to consider, if you wouldn't mind, if maybe you and Dr. [Maxime A.] Faget and Mr. [Joseph G. \"Guy\"] Thibodaux, as you had said, might want to think about getting together."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 52.035534884817025, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Unfortunately, some of us are getting along. A few have died, but for the most part, everyone's in good health."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I'd still like you to consider, if you wouldn't mind, if maybe you and Dr. [Maxime A.] Faget and Mr. [Joseph G. \"Guy\"] Thibodaux, as you had said, might want to think about getting together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That would be fun. If they agree, it would certainly suit me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be terrific. Well, then, as soon as we contact them, we'll ask them the same and maybe see if we can set up a mutual time if everyone's agreeable."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 57.817260983130026, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I'd still like you to consider, if you wouldn't mind, if maybe you and Dr. [Maxime A.] Faget and Mr. [Joseph G. \"Guy\"] Thibodaux, as you had said, might want to think about getting together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That would be fun. If they agree, it would certainly suit me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be terrific. Well, then, as soon as we contact them, we'll ask them the same and maybe see if we can set up a mutual time if everyone's agreeable."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That would be great. Well, the other thing I wanted to ask you before we get started here is… [Brief interruption – Subject was Skylab]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 35.98118253660566, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, one guy didn't like to sleep right up against the wall. He said it was because of ventilation problems. We suspected he just couldn't—you know, he went to sleep knowing he was standing up, and that just ain't the way to do it. [Laughter] He would rig his sleeping bag things on the floor outside. But maybe that's all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's amazing what we take for granted living on Earth."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that's right. You get mighty accustomed to—the thought in some area of your subconscious that \"I'm going to wake up and fall off the wall or something,\" you know. [Laughter] It was very interesting.\\n\\n Very few people paid any attention to Skylab. The people at Johnson Space Center almost didn't know it was going on, except the operations types there and the crew and those of us there doing…[Experiment 487]. It was probably because it was not Johnson's mission. It belonged to Marshall, and, you know, it couldn't be any good if it belonged to Marshall and didn't belong to Johnson, so nobody paid any attention to it. But I thought it was a very interesting thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To your knowledge, was Skylab ever designed to hold any more than three crews?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so, because we just had the three sleep stations there, and the wardroom would only hold three people. So I don't think so, but I don't think anyone ever envisioned that there would be somebody there for three months. You know, the medics would say—they started out to say, \"You might be able to take this weightlessness for maybe a half hour,\" and after that was done, they'd say, \"Well, okay, you can get by with a half hour, but a couple of hours will do you in.\" You'd go a couple of hours, and say, \"Well, you'll never make it more than for four or five days.\" I think they finally gave up after a couple of months and nobody -"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had brought up another interesting point about the window on Skylab. Can you tell me a little bit about that design?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.903254139114388, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. It was just horrible. Everything is this way and [unclear]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also mentioned, that brings up another thing to me, a little bit ago about the design and the patterns of paint colors. Could you tell me about that? [Subject: Skylab.]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. That was one of the things. You know, we all think we're great at colors. Now, I can at least take myself out of that category, because I'm red/green blind and I'm very poor at colors. So I hesitate to say anything. But anyway, most everyone has their idea of what makes good colors, and especially women. Well, every guy that had anything to do with the interior of Skylab, that might have anything to do with painting the inside, has a wife, and every one of the wives had their idea of what the color scheme should be inside. I'll bet that thing was painted over half a dozen times, depending upon the rank of the person whose wife had last said what color it should be. And when they finally got down to painting it, in the good old government way, all these paints got identified by some great number that's in the wavelengths of light, the emissions from this down the thing, and the specs went out with all these complicated things. No way you could just go down to Sherwin Williams and buy a color. It had to be to this government spec. And the funny part about it, it had taken a year with everybody—with every color of the rainbow, and then when you finally get through, it's got to be within a match of exactly [unclear]. It was hard to disguise it anyway, because it's mostly made out of aluminum alloys and structural members, and it looked kind of crummy anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What colors did they end up with, do you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't even know, but the one in the [National] Air and Space Museum is painted, probably. I don't even remember what it was now. It's fairly neutral colors, I think. No chartreuses and lavenders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No interior decorators."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 32.11472682123821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. That was one of the things. You know, we all think we're great at colors. Now, I can at least take myself out of that category, because I'm red/green blind and I'm very poor at colors. So I hesitate to say anything. But anyway, most everyone has their idea of what makes good colors, and especially women. Well, every guy that had anything to do with the interior of Skylab, that might have anything to do with painting the inside, has a wife, and every one of the wives had their idea of what the color scheme should be inside. I'll bet that thing was painted over half a dozen times, depending upon the rank of the person whose wife had last said what color it should be. And when they finally got down to painting it, in the good old government way, all these paints got identified by some great number that's in the wavelengths of light, the emissions from this down the thing, and the specs went out with all these complicated things. No way you could just go down to Sherwin Williams and buy a color. It had to be to this government spec. And the funny part about it, it had taken a year with everybody—with every color of the rainbow, and then when you finally get through, it's got to be within a match of exactly [unclear]. It was hard to disguise it anyway, because it's mostly made out of aluminum alloys and structural members, and it looked kind of crummy anyway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What colors did they end up with, do you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, I don't even know, but the one in the [National] Air and Space Museum is painted, probably. I don't even remember what it was now. It's fairly neutral colors, I think. No chartreuses and lavenders."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No interior decorators."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know when Skylab was first launched, one of the solar array panels had broken, and I know there was a big effort to help repair that. Were you involved in all that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.250553310922621, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can't remember when it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that during Apollo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So, sometime during the sixties or seventies."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes, all of these programs, you know, have a great overlap. There's a tendency to think that you do one and then you start the next one and do the next one. You know, Apollo was under way before the first Mercury flew. That's a good illustration of the way this system overlaps; that is, different people do different things. The concept designers are way out ahead, and then the preliminary design people are a little bit behind them, and then the real-world people that are really doing engineering development, then they come along, and so that concept stage is way out here when something else is following along behind. It's kind of risky, because you're betting on success.\n\nSee, you're betting that what you had done before is going to work, and you're so damned convinced that it's going to work, that you're going on ahead. And so far that's turned out to be the case. [Laughter] But it could be that, you know, once in a while you may make just a catastrophic mistake, and then the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. You know, your chain gets broken in the middle of the chain.\\n\\n We came awful close to that in Apollo, making a terrible mistake. I think I may have mentioned that before, that we completely changed the Apollo concept in the middle of the game and somehow got away with it. It's amazing. It's amazing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you and Dr. Faget initially propose the shuttle design to be able to do? Was it simply for experimental use? Was it to [unclear]?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.670710731477854, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now they throw the shuttle away and they do something else. But anyway, there were a lot of people working on the shuttle, but there was so much money involved in it, it was clear there can't be but one shuttle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after you started working on your initial design, after you'd shown Dr. Gilruth your initial prototype, where did you go from there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let me see what happened. There was a little—they often call them task groups. You grab people and put them all together and put them in one room. Jim [James A.] Chamberlin—you will run across that name quite often, James Chamberlin, was put in charge of that, and I kind of lost track of it then. Jim had a way of pulling everything together, and it would always be off in some little room somewhere, and it was very difficult to penetrate, see what was going on. Only Jim knew what was going on. You know, people kind of [unclear].\\n\\n Now, sooner or later it got to be so big that it got beyond that so-called task group of things and then got divided up all over the place, with the landing-gear people and the wing people and the propulsion people and all this kind of thing. But I don't remember how long that little task group stuck together; perhaps six months or something like that. I don't really remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you part of that space task group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, at first I was, but I'm not sure quite what happened. I think that somehow or another the way Chamberlin was running it, working it, and the way I worked and all didn't fit together right. Besides, I think at that time I had a division to run, too, and I probably had my hands full with other things. But I really don't remember too much about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did read that you and Dr. Faget had conducted a feasibility study for your design."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.41190081275317, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Let me see what happened. There was a little—they often call them task groups. You grab people and put them all together and put them in one room. Jim [James A.] Chamberlin—you will run across that name quite often, James Chamberlin, was put in charge of that, and I kind of lost track of it then. Jim had a way of pulling everything together, and it would always be off in some little room somewhere, and it was very difficult to penetrate, see what was going on. Only Jim knew what was going on. You know, people kind of [unclear].\\n\\n Now, sooner or later it got to be so big that it got beyond that so-called task group of things and then got divided up all over the place, with the landing-gear people and the wing people and the propulsion people and all this kind of thing. But I don't remember how long that little task group stuck together; perhaps six months or something like that. I don't really remember."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you part of that space task group?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, at first I was, but I'm not sure quite what happened. I think that somehow or another the way Chamberlin was running it, working it, and the way I worked and all didn't fit together right. Besides, I think at that time I had a division to run, too, and I probably had my hands full with other things. But I really don't remember too much about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did read that you and Dr. Faget had conducted a feasibility study for your design."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell me a little bit about the type of things that you looked at?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.23544534750352, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, at first I was, but I'm not sure quite what happened. I think that somehow or another the way Chamberlin was running it, working it, and the way I worked and all didn't fit together right. Besides, I think at that time I had a division to run, too, and I probably had my hands full with other things. But I really don't remember too much about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did read that you and Dr. Faget had conducted a feasibility study for your design."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you tell me a little bit about the type of things that you looked at?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I do remember that there was one concept that we employed Rockwell with to do a study of a particular thing that we were going to salvage. We were going to salvage the first stage of Saturn. It was a two-stage situation, and we rigged up a vehicle to utilize Saturn—it certainly used the Saturn engines. It went its course, but it would not satisfy that Air Force requirement. It just simply wasn't large enough. So it fell by the wayside. We must have postulated some design requirements to start with. You know, nobody's just going to start off designing something without having some specifications, even if you made up your specifications yourself. You've got to sit down and decide what you're trying to do before you're going to do it, because otherwise it's kind of dumb to think of something and then try to find a reason to use it. You ought to have a reason first. But strangely enough, somehow or another I don't recall. There were a lot of other things going on. You see, the other things were flying and business was going on at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall some of the specifications that you had come up with, some of the initial ones?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.167216478399407, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but I do remember that there was one concept that we employed Rockwell with to do a study of a particular thing that we were going to salvage. We were going to salvage the first stage of Saturn. It was a two-stage situation, and we rigged up a vehicle to utilize Saturn—it certainly used the Saturn engines. It went its course, but it would not satisfy that Air Force requirement. It just simply wasn't large enough. So it fell by the wayside. We must have postulated some design requirements to start with. You know, nobody's just going to start off designing something without having some specifications, even if you made up your specifications yourself. You've got to sit down and decide what you're trying to do before you're going to do it, because otherwise it's kind of dumb to think of something and then try to find a reason to use it. You ought to have a reason first. But strangely enough, somehow or another I don't recall. There were a lot of other things going on. You see, the other things were flying and business was going on at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you recall some of the specifications that you had come up with, some of the initial ones?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I surely don't. I dare say that between Max and some operations people, they probably generated most of the specifications, but I can tell you this, that they would fall far short of what the Air Force wanted. I do know that much. I'm not sure where it went from there, too, because obviously, once it became an overall NASA program, it had to be pulled together by many, many, many people. I've got a notion that Robert Thompson was the first guy to take that thing over as total director, program manager for the whole shuttle program. I think Robert Thompson, who, incidentally, you ought to talk to him if you ever get around to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Terrific."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think he lived in the Woodlands area for a while, but I believed he's living back somewhere in the NASA area. I think. It wouldn't be hard to find out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other individuals that you recall had a significant contribution?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.29690719822156, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I surely don't. I dare say that between Max and some operations people, they probably generated most of the specifications, but I can tell you this, that they would fall far short of what the Air Force wanted. I do know that much. I'm not sure where it went from there, too, because obviously, once it became an overall NASA program, it had to be pulled together by many, many, many people. I've got a notion that Robert Thompson was the first guy to take that thing over as total director, program manager for the whole shuttle program. I think Robert Thompson, who, incidentally, you ought to talk to him if you ever get around to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Terrific."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think he lived in the Woodlands area for a while, but I believed he's living back somewhere in the NASA area. I think. It wouldn't be hard to find out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other individuals that you recall had a significant contribution?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, but there's so many, I don't even know where to start. The operations people played a great part in this thing, too. Usually the engineering people and the operations people, the design people and the operations people, are kind of like this. [Demonstrates] We're really not, because, just like my hand, they're both connected to the same hand. They have opposite points of view of things. The operations people, you know, complain that the engineering design people, if they had any sense, they would make the damned thing so it would be easier to fly, not so much trouble, and, of course, the design people say if the operations people had any damned sense, they wouldn't need all these things that they have, they practically ruin everything after they get their hands on it. [Laughter] But the fact is, it takes both parties to do the thing right. After a few years go by, you kind of forget that you were mortal enemies for a while. It takes both sides."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What in particular was your significant contribution to the shuttle design?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:79", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 23.663230220246177, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think he lived in the Woodlands area for a while, but I believed he's living back somewhere in the NASA area. I think. It wouldn't be hard to find out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any other individuals that you recall had a significant contribution?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, but there's so many, I don't even know where to start. The operations people played a great part in this thing, too. Usually the engineering people and the operations people, the design people and the operations people, are kind of like this. [Demonstrates] We're really not, because, just like my hand, they're both connected to the same hand. They have opposite points of view of things. The operations people, you know, complain that the engineering design people, if they had any sense, they would make the damned thing so it would be easier to fly, not so much trouble, and, of course, the design people say if the operations people had any damned sense, they wouldn't need all these things that they have, they practically ruin everything after they get their hands on it. [Laughter] But the fact is, it takes both parties to do the thing right. After a few years go by, you kind of forget that you were mortal enemies for a while. It takes both sides."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What in particular was your significant contribution to the shuttle design?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably not nearly so much as to Mercury and Apollo. The thing had gotten too big. It just was too big for any person to make an impact on the thing, and so I decided at the time, like I said…[there] was a division to run and we were turning out these configurations, the fifty-four different configurations, not any one of them worth a damn. But I guess somehow along the line they ended up absorbing the inputs of many, many, many people, and that's why there were fifty-four, because so many different inputs would keep coming in and changing things. And some of what were thought to be good ideas didn't turn out to be so good when you really got down to it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that as a result of the engineering and operations people working together?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.475842470230106, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because I had left NASA by then. In fact, ASTP was flown about a year after I retired. Besides, the shuttle Program had gotten down to the hard working part then, the grinding it out, that kind of thing. The people that did the grinding out, if they hear me say something like that, they would say, \"That's typical of those [unclear],\" using the term \"grinding it out\" as though that's just dog work, which is unfair of me to say, because I didn't mean to demean that part of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it had gotten down to a place where there was a lot of people doing a lot of detailed things, all of them important, but, you know, somebody's got to do the brakes on the landing gear."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Absolutely."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And somebody's got to do the worrying about every damned little thing that goes on there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Have you ever had the opportunity to watch a launch or a landing of the shuttle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.229435148432227, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And somebody's got to do the worrying about every damned little thing that goes on there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely. Have you ever had the opportunity to watch a launch or a landing of the shuttle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I never have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, never have. In fact, I only saw one launch of Apollo, the last one, and I made a point. I said, \"By God, you'd better get yourself down to [John F.] Kennedy [Space Center], or the first thing you know, there won't be any more.\" Of course, it was very impressive, very impressive. I remember that launch. There was an old black man there that had been invited because he was like 101 or something like that, you know, and he had been invited. He probably had said something to the effect that he really didn't believe all of this stuff going on, you know, which, of course, a lot of people didn't. And after it was all over with and he saw the thing go up, I heard later that somebody asked him, \"Do you believe it now?\" and he said something to the effect of, \"I didn't see nothing go to the moon. All I saw was a big cloud of smoke.\" [Laughter]\\n\\n My mother, as a matter of fact, I believe she died not believing that really man had gone to the moon, and I'd said, \"Well, Mama, they did.\"\\n\\n She said, \"Well, how do you know?\"\\n\\n I said, \"Well, I just know they did, Mama.\"\\n\\n She said, \"How do you know that somebody didn't just tell you this and show you all of these things?\" She said, \"I see things on television every night that don't really happen.\" And every now and then I'll get wondering if my mother was right, that it was all just a big television show. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, how funny. You could have told her they were just trying to make you feel better and that your work was really moving into something."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 36.085722405471884, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, never have. In fact, I only saw one launch of Apollo, the last one, and I made a point. I said, \"By God, you'd better get yourself down to [John F.] Kennedy [Space Center], or the first thing you know, there won't be any more.\" Of course, it was very impressive, very impressive. I remember that launch. There was an old black man there that had been invited because he was like 101 or something like that, you know, and he had been invited. He probably had said something to the effect that he really didn't believe all of this stuff going on, you know, which, of course, a lot of people didn't. And after it was all over with and he saw the thing go up, I heard later that somebody asked him, \"Do you believe it now?\" and he said something to the effect of, \"I didn't see nothing go to the moon. All I saw was a big cloud of smoke.\" [Laughter]\\n\\n My mother, as a matter of fact, I believe she died not believing that really man had gone to the moon, and I'd said, \"Well, Mama, they did.\"\\n\\n She said, \"Well, how do you know?\"\\n\\n I said, \"Well, I just know they did, Mama.\"\\n\\n She said, \"How do you know that somebody didn't just tell you this and show you all of these things?\" She said, \"I see things on television every night that don't really happen.\" And every now and then I'll get wondering if my mother was right, that it was all just a big television show. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, how funny. You could have told her they were just trying to make you feel better and that your work was really moving into something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, she had a point. I don't really know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody does."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Except the guys that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that's true. And they'll tell you otherwise. They'll tell you otherwise."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 21, "return_to_go": 40.09524711719098, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, she had a point. I don't really know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Nobody does."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Except the guys that were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, that's true. And they'll tell you otherwise. They'll tell you otherwise."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What types of projects did you work on then after you had retired from NASA?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.510207464092332, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every week it's a few billion more, and it ain't there yet, either."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, it's not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Anyway, obviously that's a personal opinion."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. That's what I'm asking you now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, this whole business worked, in my opinion—you know, everybody wants to know who is the guy that does all this? Well, of course, everybody says it's not any one guy, and it truly isn't. It's more than a person. Everything came together right. The country was prosperous. We had a cold war going on, not a shooting war, but a cold war going on with a great rival that we needed to do something against. We had a president who said, \"We're going to go to the moon, get a man on the moon and back before this decade is out,\" committed to do that. There was a group of people that had developed the expertise to do this kind of thing. We didn't have terrible entitlement programs that were eating our budget, the United State's budget, alive. We had the money to spend. It all came together at one time—boom—all these things. That's why it worked.\\n\\n It wasn't any one person. It was [President John F.] Kennedy, the economy, the Russians, and we had a bunch of Germans that had come over from World War II that knew about lots of things. We had things like the Langley Research Laboratory that was doing [unclear] aircraft rocket research. We had aircraft companies with expert people in them. Boy, you know, it just came together. And right now, you see, they're not coming together right now. People are dissatisfied. There doesn't seem to be any particular reason to put up a space station. You know, they say, \"Aw, so what,\" and there's dissention in the ranks. They're worried about Medicare and Social Security. Was there Medicare then in the Mercury days? I guess there was. I don't even remember when it was. It must have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Around the sixties is when it came about."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.211200959262603, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't know. I know damned good and well that we've got to do things in space, if for no other reason than like the man asked why he climbed Everest, first place because it's there. But mainly we're getting too big for this Earth. Sooner or later, sooner or later, unless human beings want to just give up and stop being, which I don't think people are going to do, the only place to go is to go down into the Earth, and that doesn't seem like too good an idea. The oceans might help for a while, but sooner or later we've just flat got to go somewhere else, and the only way I know how to do it is you plug along, you know, do one thing at a time.\\n\\n I do wish the manned people and the unmanned people would quit bickering so much though, fighting each other when there's a—for instance, this last business with Mars. It would have been out of the question to put a man there right now, and yet there was no reason not to send an unmanned thing to Mars. Probes that are going out to Venus and the other planets, it's just a matter of time. It is regretful that you can't stay around long enough to see all these things happen, but even if you wait, if you could stick around until things got to the moon and to Venus or Saturn or wherever, then there's somewhere else to go. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Exactly. Exactly."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hear kids all the time talking, saying, \"There's nothing left to do. You know, Bill Gates has invented all the damned computer stuff, and the space station is going up, and what are we going to do?\" Isn't that silly?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the first place, Bill Gates wasn't even born when this space business started. He'd probably say that himself, you know, \"What's there to do? Everything's been done. Bell's already invented the telephone.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you would like to talk about or like to add, any stories, whether it be from Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Skylab?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.679112176958448, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I hear kids all the time talking, saying, \"There's nothing left to do. You know, Bill Gates has invented all the damned computer stuff, and the space station is going up, and what are we going to do?\" Isn't that silly?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It is."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the first place, Bill Gates wasn't even born when this space business started. He'd probably say that himself, you know, \"What's there to do? Everything's been done. Bell's already invented the telephone.\""}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else that you would like to talk about or like to add, any stories, whether it be from Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Skylab?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I'd probably think of a million some other time, but I can't right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, maybe if we can pick up some other time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.12236071229438, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I'd probably think of a million some other time, but I can't right now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Well, maybe if we can pick up some other time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Most of them, they tend to get to be things that are dealing with personalities, and most stories that are funny, they're not funny to everybody."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You and I may think they're funny, but the guy that we're talking about, it don't seem so damned funny to him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. I understand that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.324433336830324, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I told you about the $5,000 cure that the English people had. Did I tell you about that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I don't know. Why don't you tell me again."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The people that came from Canada were just great people, and a lot of them were English, and they were homesick, especially when they came here. It was bad enough being in Canada, but you come to Texas - [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were homesick, and their wives were all upset, you know, and the husbands weren't bothered because they were working, they had something to do. But we called it the $5,000 cure. They all had to take $5,000 and visit England, go back home for a month or so on vacation, and then when they came back, their wives were cured. They found out that the plumbing here was so much better and the supermarkets were so much nicer and the automobiles were better. They decided that Texas wasn't all that bad. [Laughter] But it cost $5,000 to fly them home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a large Canadian contingent that moved from [unclear] here?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.69381481870036, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The people that came from Canada were just great people, and a lot of them were English, and they were homesick, especially when they came here. It was bad enough being in Canada, but you come to Texas - [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And they were homesick, and their wives were all upset, you know, and the husbands weren't bothered because they were working, they had something to do. But we called it the $5,000 cure. They all had to take $5,000 and visit England, go back home for a month or so on vacation, and then when they came back, their wives were cured. They found out that the plumbing here was so much better and the supermarkets were so much nicer and the automobiles were better. They decided that Texas wasn't all that bad. [Laughter] But it cost $5,000 to fly them home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a large Canadian contingent that moved from [unclear] here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There were thirty-some of them, I think. They were hand-picked when the aviation company AVRO went bankrupt. The chief aerodynamicist, I think, was Jim Chamberlin, James Chamberlin, and he hand picked these fellows. NASA had made it clear that they would hire these guys if they chose to come here. And they were topnotch people. A couple of them turned out to be no good at all, but most of them were really topnotch, and there was no way that the program would have made it without them, I don't believe. Certainly Mercury would have had a hard time. They all went on to do good things, have responsible jobs. They turned out to be good people. And so the same thing probably happened at Marshall, but in that case it was the German people that came over. Takes a lot of people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. I know you didn't work at Marshall per se, but did you spend a lot of time there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.549814566118464, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not a lot, but a fair amount of time. They're nice guys, too. We used to get crossways with them a lot. They were more disciplined than we were. We were inclined to be more flitting around and do thing at the spur of the moment. They were more solid. It's almost as though they were German, you might say. It may be a good thing to have those sort of rivalries. Some people say, well, that's bad, but maybe it spurs you on, and you try to do better than the other guy.\\n\\n Well, I've talked too much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, you haven't. No, no, no. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind showing us some of your pictures here as well. Maybe if you want to start with this one right up above you, I'd like to take a look at that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a pencil drawing that I made in 1958, and we were putting together a report on the proposal for the Mercury spacecraft. I'm not even sure it was called Mercury then. That was one of the figures that was in the report. There were five figures, and I'm not certain what happened to one, two, three, and four. That's figure five. But they not have ever turned into the report. And I'm kind of happy I kept it. I don't even know why I kept it, to tell you the truth. I thought I might have—usually I throw things away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's a beautiful drawing, though. Does that show the astronaut actually trying to [unclear], or -"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that gives some idea of the reach, what the reach would be to the [unclear]. That gives you the impression it was quite spacious in there, but by the time that thing got all the junk in there, there was no place to reach that far. It's very naive in many respects, but it was 1958."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can only say that in retrospect, too. Once it's done, you can say that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.277571740131627, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a pencil drawing that I made in 1958, and we were putting together a report on the proposal for the Mercury spacecraft. I'm not even sure it was called Mercury then. That was one of the figures that was in the report. There were five figures, and I'm not certain what happened to one, two, three, and four. That's figure five. But they not have ever turned into the report. And I'm kind of happy I kept it. I don't even know why I kept it, to tell you the truth. I thought I might have—usually I throw things away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's a beautiful drawing, though. Does that show the astronaut actually trying to [unclear], or -"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that gives some idea of the reach, what the reach would be to the [unclear]. That gives you the impression it was quite spacious in there, but by the time that thing got all the junk in there, there was no place to reach that far. It's very naive in many respects, but it was 1958."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can only say that in retrospect, too. Once it's done, you can say that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's the flag that went to the moon that, when I retired, I was given that plaque, with the [unclear].\\n\\n This one right here, I was fortunate enough I was awarded [a] spacecraft design [award] in 1976 by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For that specifically?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:147", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.197301933479586, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that gives some idea of the reach, what the reach would be to the [unclear]. That gives you the impression it was quite spacious in there, but by the time that thing got all the junk in there, there was no place to reach that far. It's very naive in many respects, but it was 1958."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You can only say that in retrospect, too. Once it's done, you can say that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's the flag that went to the moon that, when I retired, I was given that plaque, with the [unclear].\\n\\n This one right here, I was fortunate enough I was awarded [a] spacecraft design [award] in 1976 by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For that specifically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just for the general—I had retired then, just for the general contribution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I wouldn't call it general."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 21.330335481643985, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's the flag that went to the moon that, when I retired, I was given that plaque, with the [unclear].\\n\\n This one right here, I was fortunate enough I was awarded [a] spacecraft design [award] in 1976 by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For that specifically?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just for the general—I had retired then, just for the general contribution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I wouldn't call it general."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They couldn't think of just one thing, so they called it spacecraft design."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wouldn't call it a general contribution, though."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.922594979604428, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, just for the general—I had retired then, just for the general contribution."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I wouldn't call it general."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They couldn't think of just one thing, so they called it spacecraft design."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wouldn't call it a general contribution, though."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This is mostly Apollo-Soyuz things. Now, that was the flag that was on Apollo-Soyuz. And these are some of my Russian colleagues.\\n\\n This very grim-looking picture here was the day after we first arrived in Moscow in 1970 for the initial discussion, and that was at Star City. It looks rather grim, these guys in these great coats, [unclear]. It was kind of cold and dreary in the middle of Russia.\\n\\n In 1970, you know, things were not too red hot then. I remember coming into the city from the airport. There were great billboards, and they showed this picture of Uncle Sam, and Uncle Sam had big canine teeth sticking out, and blood was running out of his mouth, and he's got a Vietnamese baby in one hand, killing the baby, and he's stomping on the baby's mother. This was when the Vietnam War was going on, and the Russians were pretty opposed to that. And to be driving into Moscow with billboards like that, being an American, that was not very comforting. But we were treated just fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. That was your first trip to Moscow?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.265562386288652, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and just nobody had been there before. This picture, we signed. This was the group of us. There's myself, George [B.] Hardy from Marshall. That black-haired man with black glasses was named Crimer. He was an official interpreter. And a man from Washington headquarters, Arnold Frutken, and Dr. Gilruth. You can barely see him on the side. We were signing a Memorandum of Understanding to begin discussions of no particular activity, but just general discussions for space activities, and that led to Apollo-Soyuz. It turns out that they had that in mind all the time, but we did not know [unclear].\\n\\n This is my good friend Vladimir Smermetnikov [phonetic]. He's a chief mechanical designer on the thing, and he and I were kind of counterparts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How interesting. Does he make it back to Houston every once in a while?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes. He's still active on the Mir docking situation, so every time there's a joint mission, he's here as their representative for the docking in case something kind of goes wrong. He's at Mission Control here, so he's still quite active."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm wondering if he might even be willing to talk to us about his work as well, or maybe the two of you together."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wouldn't be surprised. Right at the moment he's in Washington, because he just called me a couple of days ago. When is the next -"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The next mission, I believe, is the beginning of June or the very end of May. I think it's tentatively scheduled for the 28th of May."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.970593122481002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Does that visit Mir?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, he will almost certainly be here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He would probably be delighted, and he speaks English well enough that -"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Terrific. We're also working with the Shuttle-Mir Program, and they have lent us some of their interpreters, so perhaps they might be willing to lend us one of their interpreters to help us, and I'm sure, even with his terrific English -"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 14.411770136090002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Well, he will almost certainly be here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He would probably be delighted, and he speaks English well enough that -"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Terrific. We're also working with the Shuttle-Mir Program, and they have lent us some of their interpreters, so perhaps they might be willing to lend us one of their interpreters to help us, and I'm sure, even with his terrific English -"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He will disdain -"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "[Laughter] Okay. Well, just to give him the opportunity to say whatever he likes without having any sort of imposition or -"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.2896969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, I didn't let on that I knew what was going on, and when we got back in the meeting room, I said, \"Vladimir,\" I said, \"are you ready to sign those minutes yet?\"\\n\\n He said, \"Yes.\" He said, \"I've been thinking about it over lunch, and I believe I'm ready to sign them.\" [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How funny. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never did tell him that I had heard what had gone on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are these medals up here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was signed by the crews of Apollo and Soyuz, and these are the little medallions, and that's Apollo-Soyuz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's really neat. And they call it, of course, Soyuz-Apollo."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.877441, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never did tell him that I had heard what had gone on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are these medals up here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was signed by the crews of Apollo and Soyuz, and these are the little medallions, and that's Apollo-Soyuz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's really neat. And they call it, of course, Soyuz-Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Soyuz-Apollo, that's right. Or Apollone. Apollo is Apollone.\\n\\n Now, these things have nothing to do with NASA. When I was a younger fellow, I used to fly my airplane. That was a couple of records that I held since the fifties [unclear]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Look at that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.53049, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was signed by the crews of Apollo and Soyuz, and these are the little medallions, and that's Apollo-Soyuz."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's really neat. And they call it, of course, Soyuz-Apollo."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Soyuz-Apollo, that's right. Or Apollone. Apollo is Apollone.\\n\\n Now, these things have nothing to do with NASA. When I was a younger fellow, I used to fly my airplane. That was a couple of records that I held since the fifties [unclear]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Look at that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I was a young fellow. You can tell how old they are. The paper's getting old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's so terrific. And I see here you have an NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] Award, too, a plaque."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 7.2561, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Soyuz-Apollo, that's right. Or Apollone. Apollo is Apollone.\\n\\n Now, these things have nothing to do with NASA. When I was a younger fellow, I used to fly my airplane. That was a couple of records that I held since the fifties [unclear]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Look at that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I was a young fellow. You can tell how old they are. The paper's getting old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's so terrific. And I see here you have an NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] Award, too, a plaque."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They gave me that when I retired. I've got a lot of little trifle things around, but I just chose to put these up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how about, perhaps, over here. You might want to show that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.729, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I was a young fellow. You can tell how old they are. The paper's getting old."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's so terrific. And I see here you have an NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics] Award, too, a plaque."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They gave me that when I retired. I've got a lot of little trifle things around, but I just chose to put these up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how about, perhaps, over here. You might want to show that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. That's a cobblestone from Red Square. Bill Creasy [phonetic] and some other guys, there was some construction work going on while they were there, and they slipped over there one night and stole a couple of cobblestones, and they had this one mounted and gave it to me when I retired, and they've got a little spot marked there on Red Square where it came from. Now, those guys were stupid to do that. They could have put those guys under the jail and we'd never hear of them again. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They're right near to the Kremlin, too. [Laughter]"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.81, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. They gave me that when I retired. I've got a lot of little trifle things around, but I just chose to put these up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how about, perhaps, over here. You might want to show that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. That's a cobblestone from Red Square. Bill Creasy [phonetic] and some other guys, there was some construction work going on while they were there, and they slipped over there one night and stole a couple of cobblestones, and they had this one mounted and gave it to me when I retired, and they've got a little spot marked there on Red Square where it came from. Now, those guys were stupid to do that. They could have put those guys under the jail and we'd never hear of them again. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They're right near to the Kremlin, too. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's St. Basil's Cathedral. And this is what we call the \"Goon Department Store.\" And this was some sort of big old apartment building. I forget what it was. But I came back one night, it was snowing. I'd been to the Bolshoi Theater, and I was walking back, had come back up this way here. The snow was coming down, and it was cold, and that great red flag over the Kremlin was flying in the breeze, the spotlight on it, and the soldier guard was standing there, and I thought, \"What in the world am I doing here in Red Square, in the middle of the night, in the snow, and that flag sitting up there and the Kremlin over there?\" And I sure felt a lot better when I got to the hotel and [unclear]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any accounts of anyone listening to you while you were in your room?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's right. That's St. Basil's Cathedral. And this is what we call the \"Goon Department Store.\" And this was some sort of big old apartment building. I forget what it was. But I came back one night, it was snowing. I'd been to the Bolshoi Theater, and I was walking back, had come back up this way here. The snow was coming down, and it was cold, and that great red flag over the Kremlin was flying in the breeze, the spotlight on it, and the soldier guard was standing there, and I thought, \"What in the world am I doing here in Red Square, in the middle of the night, in the snow, and that flag sitting up there and the Kremlin over there?\" And I sure felt a lot better when I got to the hotel and [unclear]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any accounts of anyone listening to you while you were in your room?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. It was mostly a matter that they were looking out for us. They just flat didn't want [unclear]. I remember the first time I went over there, Dr. Gilruth had a bag that the lock was faulty on it, and so he didn't lock it because he couldn't get it unlocked when he locked it because it wouldn't unlock. So he kept it unlocked. Well, while we were out once, when we came back, his bag was locked. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah-oh. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Somebody had been through it, you know, and then they just automatically locked it. They didn't know it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. How funny."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Somebody had been through it, you know, and then they just automatically locked it. They didn't know it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. How funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there were no incidents that I know of. One fellow, though, insisted on trying to sneak some photographs of things with his camera someplace. We'd been to Star City. They'd asked us not to do it, so most everybody respected that. No use causing trouble over a damned photograph."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But he tried to do it anyway. And when he got back home, he found out that all his film was completely fogged. He didn't know when and where, but it was all fogged. And it wasn't going through the airport thing, because they don't have enough power on those things to [unclear]. But that roll of film was completely fogged. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Very interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00293:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But there were no incidents that I know of. One fellow, though, insisted on trying to sneak some photographs of things with his camera someplace. We'd been to Star City. They'd asked us not to do it, so most everybody respected that. No use causing trouble over a damned photograph."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But he tried to do it anyway. And when he got back home, he found out that all his film was completely fogged. He didn't know when and where, but it was all fogged. And it wasn't going through the airport thing, because they don't have enough power on those things to [unclear]. But that roll of film was completely fogged. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Very interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He was foolish to have done that. It was kind of silly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, he took his chances."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.709868156897333, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We are in Portland, Oregon, this morning. Um, Paul, let's get started by talking about who you were before you joined the Peace Corps. Where were you born?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born in Evanston, uh, outside of Chicago. Um, my parents were, uh, graduate students at Northwestern."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At Northwestern? Yeah. And did you have brothers and sisters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I have a younger sister. She's, um, a couple of years younger than me. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then when you, as you got older, did you go to school in Evanston?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.56652017433037, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was born in Evanston, uh, outside of Chicago. Um, my parents were, uh, graduate students at Northwestern."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At Northwestern? Yeah. And did you have brothers and sisters?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I have a younger sister. She's, um, a couple of years younger than me. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then when you, as you got older, did you go to school in Evanston?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, well, my, my parents ended up leaving the States to go teach in Zaire, which is now Congo. Um, so, so when I was about two, um, I moved with them to Congo. And so I ended up doing, uh, my elementary school education there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you in an international school or were you going to school along with Congolese kids?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.464839721395517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, well, my, my parents ended up leaving the States to go teach in Zaire, which is now Congo. Um, so, so when I was about two, um, I moved with them to Congo. And so I ended up doing, uh, my elementary school education there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you in an international school or were you going to school along with Congolese kids?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I was going to school with Congolese kids. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How unique."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. My parents made the decision to send my sister and I to, to the, the same, uh, schools that the their, um. Zairian colleagues at the university were sending their kids to. So they were good schools, but they were the local schools rather than the international ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, um. So you were in Zaire then from age two until?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.40537746821724, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I was going to school with Congolese kids. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How unique."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. My parents made the decision to send my sister and I to, to the, the same, uh, schools that the their, um. Zairian colleagues at the university were sending their kids to. So they were good schools, but they were the local schools rather than the international ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, um. So you were in Zaire then from age two until?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we moved to the States, uh, when I was 11."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So that would be like first grade through fifth grade or so."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.450419409130268, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. My parents made the decision to send my sister and I to, to the, the same, uh, schools that the their, um. Zairian colleagues at the university were sending their kids to. So they were good schools, but they were the local schools rather than the international ones."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, um. So you were in Zaire then from age two until?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we moved to the States, uh, when I was 11."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So that would be like first grade through fifth grade or so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In, uh, so in Zaire. And so. Wow. You must have picked up, uh, some languages. Uh."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 11.611577121255852, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, we moved to the States, uh, when I was 11."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. So that would be like first grade through fifth grade or so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In, uh, so in Zaire. And so. Wow. You must have picked up, uh, some languages. Uh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From your fellow students. What were you speaking?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.346196801395392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In, uh, so in Zaire. And so. Wow. You must have picked up, uh, some languages. Uh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From your fellow students. What were you speaking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So when I was, so when I was real little, um, we were in Kisangani, which is in the sort of northeast part of the country and the, uh, the main language in the city anyway there was, was Swahili. And so, um, but from a, from a young age, I mean, in, in a country like, like then Zaire people speak all kinds of different languages. So I was exposed to lots of different languages, and I spoke French and English and Swahili and some Lingala, which is kind of sort of a national lingua franca there. Um, uh. So yeah, I was exposed to a lot of different languages from a very young age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How very unique. Wonderful. And then when you were 11, you came back to the States. Your family moved back to the States?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.162440890439324, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From your fellow students. What were you speaking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So when I was, so when I was real little, um, we were in Kisangani, which is in the sort of northeast part of the country and the, uh, the main language in the city anyway there was, was Swahili. And so, um, but from a, from a young age, I mean, in, in a country like, like then Zaire people speak all kinds of different languages. So I was exposed to lots of different languages, and I spoke French and English and Swahili and some Lingala, which is kind of sort of a national lingua franca there. Um, uh. So yeah, I was exposed to a lot of different languages from a very young age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How very unique. Wonderful. And then when you were 11, you came back to the States. Your family moved back to the States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So for me, it was, I mean, I guess it was moving back since I was originally born in Evanston, but it was really moving to the States for the first time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the first time for you. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.62493432271036, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So when I was, so when I was real little, um, we were in Kisangani, which is in the sort of northeast part of the country and the, uh, the main language in the city anyway there was, was Swahili. And so, um, but from a, from a young age, I mean, in, in a country like, like then Zaire people speak all kinds of different languages. So I was exposed to lots of different languages, and I spoke French and English and Swahili and some Lingala, which is kind of sort of a national lingua franca there. Um, uh. So yeah, I was exposed to a lot of different languages from a very young age."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How very unique. Wonderful. And then when you were 11, you came back to the States. Your family moved back to the States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So for me, it was, I mean, I guess it was moving back since I was originally born in Evanston, but it was really moving to the States for the first time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For the first time for you. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so yeah, so I was, I was, uh, um, we ended up in Billings, Montana. Um. And so, yeah, it was a big change from, from, when I. For my later elementary school years, I was in Lubumbashi in Zaire, which is in the southern part of the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, wait. So, so you were in Montana for just a couple of years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.233106066818052, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. So from, from Zaire, we moved to Montana."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I did my junior high years there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then we moved to Tennessee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.814562296464501, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And I did my junior high years there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then we moved to Tennessee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did my high school there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, so when you're talking about Lubumbashi, we're still talking about, uh, uh, before you came back to the United States."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.976079967715365, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, yeah. So the, the Zaire segment was, was Kisangani and then Lubumbashi."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then Montana. And so junior high in Montana."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 8.735901194710326, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And then Montana. And so junior high in Montana."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And high school in Tennessee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then uh, and then I went to college in, in Ohio. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we go to college, um, what was it like being in high school? What sort of things did you get involved in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.373223549678139, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And high school in Tennessee."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then uh, and then I went to college in, in Ohio. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we go to college, um, what was it like being in high school? What sort of things did you get involved in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when I was in, when we moved to, uh, to Billings, um, so this was, this was, uh, I was in sixth grade. Um, it so happened that the public schools there had a very good music program. And one of the things that my parents used to talk to me about moving to the U.S. from Zaire was that that you can learn to play a musical instrument, because my grandfather had been, was a violinist. So, um, so anyway, I got interested in playing the French horn of all things when, as when we moved to Billings. And so when I was in high school, I was very serious about playing the horn, and I used to, I took, I had private lessons and practiced a lot on my own. And, um, so that, that was kind of my main focus. I, uh, like I would say that kind of got me through high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your parents doing meanwhile?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.633609320590295, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when I was in, when we moved to, uh, to Billings, um, so this was, this was, uh, I was in sixth grade. Um, it so happened that the public schools there had a very good music program. And one of the things that my parents used to talk to me about moving to the U.S. from Zaire was that that you can learn to play a musical instrument, because my grandfather had been, was a violinist. So, um, so anyway, I got interested in playing the French horn of all things when, as when we moved to Billings. And so when I was in high school, I was very serious about playing the horn, and I used to, I took, I had private lessons and practiced a lot on my own. And, um, so that, that was kind of my main focus. I, uh, like I would say that kind of got me through high school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were your parents doing meanwhile?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, my parents were, uh, my, my, in high school, my mother was teaching at the university in, uh, this was in Clarksville, Tennessee. Um, and my father was writing fiction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um. Did you have summer jobs?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.259565911766994, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, my parents were, uh, my, my, in high school, my mother was teaching at the university in, uh, this was in Clarksville, Tennessee. Um, and my father was writing fiction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um. Did you have summer jobs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I did, yeah, I did. I worked, um, uh, not through, throughout high school, but my junior and senior years in high school I worked at a fast food place to save money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got your taste of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.95507323529666, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um. Did you have summer jobs?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I did, yeah, I did. I worked, um, uh, not through, throughout high school, but my junior and senior years in high school I worked at a fast food place to save money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you got your taste of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then, um, you graduate from high school and you, you go to. Where did you go to college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.351942265798345, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then, um, you graduate from high school and you, you go to. Where did you go to college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I went to college at Oberlin, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Ohio and got into the conservatory there. So I was studying music."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Music at Oberlin."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.076471933084376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Ohio and got into the conservatory there. So I was studying music."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Music at Oberlin."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, what about languages? Had you, were you able to maintain your, um, Swahili and other, uh, lingua?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.625273991462191, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, what about languages? Had you, were you able to maintain your, um, Swahili and other, uh, lingua?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So, so, you know, through elementary school, I studied in French and mostly spoke French with my friends. And so I had a very solid, um, you know, knowledge of French. And so, in spite of the fact that from, uh, sixth grade all the way through high school, I never really had an opportunity to speak French, I held on to it. And I did, I did study other languages in high school. I studied some German and Spanish. Um, but it wasn't until college that I had an opportunity to start speaking French again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so and then I did, the, the Swahili and Lingala I didn't retain, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. But the French you did. And did you continue academic study of French?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 9.413918507978014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so and then I did, the, the Swahili and Lingala I didn't retain, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. But the French you did. And did you continue academic study of French?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not, I did, I took. I didn't. Since I knew French, I took other languages when I had the opportunity. So I studied some German in college and some Spanish, and I lived in the French speaking dorm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, fun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college. And that was just based on my knowing French. So, so I was, I was trying to take steps to maintain my, uh, my language skill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Very good. So your major was music?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.01546500886446, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not, I did, I took. I didn't. Since I knew French, I took other languages when I had the opportunity. So I studied some German in college and some Spanish, and I lived in the French speaking dorm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, fun."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In college. And that was just based on my knowing French. So, so I was, I was trying to take steps to maintain my, uh, my language skill."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Very good. So your major was music?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, I majored in French horn performance. Um, and, uh, yeah, sort of explored other things, like I was because of my experience growing up in Zaire, I was interested in African history, so I, I took some, there was some Ghanaian professors at Oberlin at the time who were Nkrumaists. So they were, they were interesting for me to take some classes with them, um, as sort of electives. Um, but yeah, my, my, my degree ended up being in a Bachelor of Arts in music performance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. So and then what happened next?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9697098874869874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, I majored in French horn performance. Um, and, uh, yeah, sort of explored other things, like I was because of my experience growing up in Zaire, I was interested in African history, so I, I took some, there was some Ghanaian professors at Oberlin at the time who were Nkrumaists. So they were, they were interesting for me to take some classes with them, um, as sort of electives. Um, but yeah, my, my, my degree ended up being in a Bachelor of Arts in music performance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. So and then what happened next?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, then, uh, I left college and moved to Seattle. I, I had sort of gone into college with the idea of being a professional orchestral musician and left college, uh, knowing that I didn't want to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Too many other things in the world that I was interested in. And it seemed very limiting to kind of focus to be to play an orchestral musician, you really have to, you have to, you have to focus on that as your goal and work very hard to it. And to me that felt limiting. And so, um, so I kind of took a little time off, I guess you could say, moved to Seattle with a bunch of friends of who were, who were doing the same thing. It was, this was the late '80s, early '90s in Seattle. It was, jobs were easy to get. You could live there cheaply. There was a lot of exciting arts and music going on, so it was a fun place to go. Um, and I ended up just, I had a job driving a donation service truck, picking up clothes off of people's front porches for, I did that. I ended up doing that for a number of years. Um, I had a, a fantasy from the time I was in junior high of living in a pickup truck and driving around the country. So I did that. I bought a truck and I drove around the country. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you still with your French horn?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:73", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.900876404304922, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Too many other things in the world that I was interested in. And it seemed very limiting to kind of focus to be to play an orchestral musician, you really have to, you have to, you have to focus on that as your goal and work very hard to it. And to me that felt limiting. And so, um, so I kind of took a little time off, I guess you could say, moved to Seattle with a bunch of friends of who were, who were doing the same thing. It was, this was the late '80s, early '90s in Seattle. It was, jobs were easy to get. You could live there cheaply. There was a lot of exciting arts and music going on, so it was a fun place to go. Um, and I ended up just, I had a job driving a donation service truck, picking up clothes off of people's front porches for, I did that. I ended up doing that for a number of years. Um, I had a, a fantasy from the time I was in junior high of living in a pickup truck and driving around the country. So I did that. I bought a truck and I drove around the country. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And were you still with your French horn?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had my always, my horn was always around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was always kind of playing it. Um, and, you know, I have to. Practicing more or less degree, depending on what else was going on in my life. But yeah, it was always there. Um, and then I eventually ended up going back to, uh, school, back to college and, and getting an another undergraduate degree, this time in electrical engineering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Where did you do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.704785684327064, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was always kind of playing it. Um, and, you know, I have to. Practicing more or less degree, depending on what else was going on in my life. But yeah, it was always there. Um, and then I eventually ended up going back to, uh, school, back to college and, and getting an another undergraduate degree, this time in electrical engineering."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. Where did you do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the University of Washington in Seattle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was driven by I, I sort of always knew in the back of my mind that, I mean, this is one of the reasons that I, I didn't finish my music studies was that, uh, I wanted to figure out a way to live in Africa again. And it wasn't clear to me exactly how I was going to do that. And so I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you needed some skill."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.573809486823536, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that was driven by I, I sort of always knew in the back of my mind that, I mean, this is one of the reasons that I, I didn't finish my music studies was that, uh, I wanted to figure out a way to live in Africa again. And it wasn't clear to me exactly how I was going to do that. And so I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you needed some skill."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Um, being a French horn player wasn't going to get me there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, uh, and so I, and I got, I developed an interest in renewable energy and I thought, well, I could, it'd be interesting to do like do solar energy in Africa. And so I thought I should get an engineering degree to do that. And so that kind of motivated my decision to, uh, to go to engineering school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it take another whole four years to get the bachelor's degree in electrical engineering?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9708994298039286, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Um, being a French horn player wasn't going to get me there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, uh, and so I, and I got, I developed an interest in renewable energy and I thought, well, I could, it'd be interesting to do like do solar energy in Africa. And so I thought I should get an engineering degree to do that. And so that kind of motivated my decision to, uh, to go to engineering school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it take another whole four years to get the bachelor's degree in electrical engineering?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it did, I. It had been four years since I had graduated and got my first degree, and I had taken some math and science courses, uh, at Oberlin. But I had to redo all of that, so I just, I just kind of plowed in. And went through went through a whole 'nother four year undergraduate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, good for you. Not many people would be willing to do that. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of strength to put yourself through that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.412110477559921, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, uh, and so I, and I got, I developed an interest in renewable energy and I thought, well, I could, it'd be interesting to do like do solar energy in Africa. And so I thought I should get an engineering degree to do that. And so that kind of motivated my decision to, uh, to go to engineering school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it take another whole four years to get the bachelor's degree in electrical engineering?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it did, I. It had been four years since I had graduated and got my first degree, and I had taken some math and science courses, uh, at Oberlin. But I had to redo all of that, so I just, I just kind of plowed in. And went through went through a whole 'nother four year undergraduate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, good for you. Not many people would be willing to do that. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of strength to put yourself through that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because at that time I actually met a few other people who were doing the same thing that I was, that they had studied arts in undergraduate, taken some time off, and then gone back to get engineering degrees. And so it seemed like I was part of a trend without really knowing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, um. And you were in Seattle?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.902344975066579, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it did, I. It had been four years since I had graduated and got my first degree, and I had taken some math and science courses, uh, at Oberlin. But I had to redo all of that, so I just, I just kind of plowed in. And went through went through a whole 'nother four year undergraduate."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, good for you. Not many people would be willing to do that. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of strength to put yourself through that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because at that time I actually met a few other people who were doing the same thing that I was, that they had studied arts in undergraduate, taken some time off, and then gone back to get engineering degrees. And so it seemed like I was part of a trend without really knowing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, um. And you were in Seattle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, um. When you finished that degree, by that time, you're, what, 20, 26 or something?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.2248277500739766, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because at that time I actually met a few other people who were doing the same thing that I was, that they had studied arts in undergraduate, taken some time off, and then gone back to get engineering degrees. And so it seemed like I was part of a trend without really knowing it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So, um. And you were in Seattle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, um. When you finished that degree, by that time, you're, what, 20, 26 or something?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "29, yeah. 28, 29."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's right. Because you'd put in all those years, uh, working at picking up, uh, donations."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.583141944526641, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, um. When you finished that degree, by that time, you're, what, 20, 26 or something?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "29, yeah. 28, 29."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's right. Because you'd put in all those years, uh, working at picking up, uh, donations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, right. So now you're 29 and you've got a degree in electrical engineering."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:97", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.915146700310892, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So the, the, you know, part of my thinking about getting back to Africa, so to speak, was to, uh, get this electrical engineering degree because I had been interested in the Peace Corps, and I looked into it and felt like I wouldn't really be qualified. Like they wanted people with technical skills. And without, like, actually going to a Peace Corps recruiter and talking to them, I just decided that I would do this, get this degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I mean that was part of my motivation for, um. So. So I had, I sort of knew that I wanted to apply to the Peace Corps when I finished the degree. So toward the end of my degree then I did go talk to a recruiter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And um, began the long application process. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that like? You said long application process. How long did that take?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.350163000345436, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I mean that was part of my motivation for, um. So. So I had, I sort of knew that I wanted to apply to the Peace Corps when I finished the degree. So toward the end of my degree then I did go talk to a recruiter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And um, began the long application process. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was that like? You said long application process. How long did that take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think it was. I think it was close to a year from the time I sort of started the process to the time I was accepted and placed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, were you, uh, given a choice of what part of the world? Were you able to indicate that your preference was Africa?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.370571605364736, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I think it was. I think it was close to a year from the time I sort of started the process to the time I was accepted and placed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, were you, uh, given a choice of what part of the world? Were you able to indicate that your preference was Africa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I think I was, I think they. I was able, there was a form where I could put a preference, and the recruiter made it clear that that may or may not be taken into consideration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then I think the ironic thing about it in the end was that I was placed in Mali because of my language skills. And they were, you know, they, I was in the agriculture program, so my electrical engineering had no bearing on it. And I think when I had looked into it earlier, there had been an appropriate technology sector, and I was sort of excited to be part of that. Um, but that, that didn't exist by the time I actually applied. Um, so, yeah, I was, I was placed in a French speaking African country because I was a fluent French speaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.967301783738596, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, I think I was, I think they. I was able, there was a form where I could put a preference, and the recruiter made it clear that that may or may not be taken into consideration."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then I think the ironic thing about it in the end was that I was placed in Mali because of my language skills. And they were, you know, they, I was in the agriculture program, so my electrical engineering had no bearing on it. And I think when I had looked into it earlier, there had been an appropriate technology sector, and I was sort of excited to be part of that. Um, but that, that didn't exist by the time I actually applied. Um, so, yeah, I was, I was placed in a French speaking African country because I was a fluent French speaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in agriculture. Had you had any background in agriculture?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.630335315265106, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then I think the ironic thing about it in the end was that I was placed in Mali because of my language skills. And they were, you know, they, I was in the agriculture program, so my electrical engineering had no bearing on it. And I think when I had looked into it earlier, there had been an appropriate technology sector, and I was sort of excited to be part of that. Um, but that, that didn't exist by the time I actually applied. Um, so, yeah, I was, I was placed in a French speaking African country because I was a fluent French speaker."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in agriculture. Had you had any background in agriculture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was, you know, joking with my friends that give me a house plant and I would kill it. I had no, no experience or real interest in it. But I was willing to learn, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course. And you wanted, you wanted to be in Africa in some sort of useful way."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.144817016961229, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And in agriculture. Had you had any background in agriculture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was, you know, joking with my friends that give me a house plant and I would kill it. I had no, no experience or real interest in it. But I was willing to learn, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course. And you wanted, you wanted to be in Africa in some sort of useful way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And, you know, Mali wasn't my first choice. I had been in Central Africa, which was very different. And, and my impression of Mali at the time was, was, you know, it's an arid desert country and it's very predominantly Muslim. And I wasn't really experienced with that. Um, and, um, it, it. My impression of it was very different from the, my, what I had experienced as a kid in Zaire, so. But I was, you know, I decided to go for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Meanwhile, where are your parents?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.605352241068032, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I was, you know, joking with my friends that give me a house plant and I would kill it. I had no, no experience or real interest in it. But I was willing to learn, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Of course. And you wanted, you wanted to be in Africa in some sort of useful way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And, you know, Mali wasn't my first choice. I had been in Central Africa, which was very different. And, and my impression of Mali at the time was, was, you know, it's an arid desert country and it's very predominantly Muslim. And I wasn't really experienced with that. Um, and, um, it, it. My impression of it was very different from the, my, what I had experienced as a kid in Zaire, so. But I was, you know, I decided to go for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Meanwhile, where are your parents?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, my parents have been moving around, so they were, at that time they were living in Montana again. Um, and my mom, my mom was actually doing international work, so she was consulting, uh, in public health. Um, so she, she was traveling around. And I had actually had an opportunity to visit them when she had a job in, in Malawi. Um, so I did, I did travel to Africa, um, one time before I was in Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peace Corps, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.117058045631147, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And, you know, Mali wasn't my first choice. I had been in Central Africa, which was very different. And, and my impression of Mali at the time was, was, you know, it's an arid desert country and it's very predominantly Muslim. And I wasn't really experienced with that. Um, and, um, it, it. My impression of it was very different from the, my, what I had experienced as a kid in Zaire, so. But I was, you know, I decided to go for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. Meanwhile, where are your parents?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, my parents have been moving around, so they were, at that time they were living in Montana again. Um, and my mom, my mom was actually doing international work, so she was consulting, uh, in public health. Um, so she, she was traveling around. And I had actually had an opportunity to visit them when she had a job in, in Malawi. Um, so I did, I did travel to Africa, um, one time before I was in Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peace Corps, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was my sort of going back to Malawi and smelling the smells and seeing the sights that were familiar to me from, from a kid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because Malawi would have, Malawi would have been, um, closer to the Congo, certainly, than Mali."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.685620050701274, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, my parents have been moving around, so they were, at that time they were living in Montana again. Um, and my mom, my mom was actually doing international work, so she was consulting, uh, in public health. Um, so she, she was traveling around. And I had actually had an opportunity to visit them when she had a job in, in Malawi. Um, so I did, I did travel to Africa, um, one time before I was in Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Peace Corps, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was my sort of going back to Malawi and smelling the smells and seeing the sights that were familiar to me from, from a kid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because Malawi would have, Malawi would have been, um, closer to the Congo, certainly, than Mali."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's geographically more similar, yeah. So the, the climate is more similar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Yeah. So you get accepted to a program for Mali and off you go training. Was there a staging somewhere in the United States first before you went over?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.095133389668082, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that was my sort of going back to Malawi and smelling the smells and seeing the sights that were familiar to me from, from a kid."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because Malawi would have, Malawi would have been, um, closer to the Congo, certainly, than Mali."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's geographically more similar, yeah. So the, the climate is more similar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Yeah. So you get accepted to a program for Mali and off you go training. Was there a staging somewhere in the United States first before you went over?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had a three, I think it was a 2 or 3 day staging in Washington, D.C. So that's where I got to meet my, my cohort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And what was your, talk about your cohort a little bit. How many people and who was in it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.5501482107423135, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's geographically more similar, yeah. So the, the climate is more similar."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right. Yeah. So you get accepted to a program for Mali and off you go training. Was there a staging somewhere in the United States first before you went over?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had a three, I think it was a 2 or 3 day staging in Washington, D.C. So that's where I got to meet my, my cohort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And what was your, talk about your cohort a little bit. How many people and who was in it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, let's see. I want to say there were 28 or so people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, nice and small."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.944609123047015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we had a three, I think it was a 2 or 3 day staging in Washington, D.C. So that's where I got to meet my, my cohort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. And what was your, talk about your cohort a little bit. How many people and who was in it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, let's see. I want to say there were 28 or so people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, nice and small."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It was, it was a, um, not a big group. And it was mostly young recent graduates, so in their early 20s."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.410986451367647, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was 29."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "29, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think. I think there was one other person who was around the same age as me. And then and in, in our group there were, it was like the group, the age group was pretty narrow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. And I think there were, it was mostly women. I think there were, uh, were there 5 or 6 men in the group?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, interesting, to do. And they were all preparing to be agriculture volunteers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.789984945964052, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think. I think there was one other person who was around the same age as me. And then and in, in our group there were, it was like the group, the age group was pretty narrow."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. And I think there were, it was mostly women. I think there were, uh, were there 5 or 6 men in the group?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, interesting, to do. And they were all preparing to be agriculture volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, no. So this was divided between agriculture and natural resources management. So the way they did it at that time is they had two incoming groups per year. And, and, the, the. Each group had 2 or 3 sectors. So the other sector was the health and the small business sector. Or maybe there was another sector in there. So our group was the NRM, Natural Resources Management and Agriculture. So we were all going to be in one of those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have staging in Washington."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.211094384404502, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. And I think there were, it was mostly women. I think there were, uh, were there 5 or 6 men in the group?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, interesting, to do. And they were all preparing to be agriculture volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, no. So this was divided between agriculture and natural resources management. So the way they did it at that time is they had two incoming groups per year. And, and, the, the. Each group had 2 or 3 sectors. So the other sector was the health and the small business sector. Or maybe there was another sector in there. So our group was the NRM, Natural Resources Management and Agriculture. So we were all going to be in one of those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have staging in Washington."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do they give you all kinds of vaccinations, or had you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.678993760449447, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, no. So this was divided between agriculture and natural resources management. So the way they did it at that time is they had two incoming groups per year. And, and, the, the. Each group had 2 or 3 sectors. So the other sector was the health and the small business sector. Or maybe there was another sector in there. So our group was the NRM, Natural Resources Management and Agriculture. So we were all going to be in one of those."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have staging in Washington."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do they give you all kinds of vaccinations, or had you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We did, we did. I think we did some vaccinations. I kind of remember doing some in Seattle before, but yeah, we did. Or maybe, yeah, maybe I'm mixing that up. But yeah, we did vaccinations there. We watched a lot of orientation videos."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About Mali, about Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.6654243956166015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. We did, we did. I think we did some vaccinations. I kind of remember doing some in Seattle before, but yeah, we did. Or maybe, yeah, maybe I'm mixing that up. But yeah, we did vaccinations there. We watched a lot of orientation videos."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About Mali, about Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "About Peace Corps. Just kind of preparing us for what to expect. You know, I think there were videos with interviews of returned volunteers and that kind of thing, or volunteers at their sites and some sort of team building stuff. And I was really not looking forward to that part of the experience. And so it was, I was, it was hard for me to just play along."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but, but, yeah, it was um, it was a good group of people. So it was, it was my first exposure and I was a little standoffish, I think, suspicious of everybody. I think we all kind of were, um. But. Yeah. So. So that was a couple of days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A couple of days. And then you all flew together, I suppose?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:141", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.537560982242718, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but, but, yeah, it was um, it was a good group of people. So it was, it was my first exposure and I was a little standoffish, I think, suspicious of everybody. I think we all kind of were, um. But. Yeah. So. So that was a couple of days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A couple of days. And then you all flew together, I suppose?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From D.C.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. We flew, I think, out of Dulles, and we were all flying as a group and had to get all our luggage in a big pile and, and, uh, we were. Yeah, we all were seated around each other on the big plane to Paris."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it wouldn't have been a charter flight I'm thinking. There's only 28 of you or so."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9306233136030198, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yep, yep."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "From D.C.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. We flew, I think, out of Dulles, and we were all flying as a group and had to get all our luggage in a big pile and, and, uh, we were. Yeah, we all were seated around each other on the big plane to Paris."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it wouldn't have been a charter flight I'm thinking. There's only 28 of you or so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You would have had ordinary."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.3673592373366885, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did. We flew, I think, out of Dulles, and we were all flying as a group and had to get all our luggage in a big pile and, and, uh, we were. Yeah, we all were seated around each other on the big plane to Paris."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So it wouldn't have been a charter flight I'm thinking. There's only 28 of you or so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You would have had ordinary."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were just on a regular commercial flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. To, did you say to Paris?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:149", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.280690416465047, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we were just on a regular commercial flight."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. To, did you say to Paris?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Paris."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then from there directly to Bamako."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Any time in Paris?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.756322684961163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To Paris."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then from there directly to Bamako."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Any time in Paris?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, we just hung out at the airport for the short layover."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were quite comfortable in French. Were your fellow trainees also fluent in French?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.284802983290181, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then from there directly to Bamako."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh. Any time in Paris?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, we just hung out at the airport for the short layover."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were quite comfortable in French. Were your fellow trainees also fluent in French?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, most were not, but there were a couple. There were actually, um. There was one other person in our group who was a native speaker. He spoke French and English. He was a dual national. And then there were a couple of other people who had studied French and were quite comfortable with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you get to Bamako and right away you must have noticed some differences between, um, your surroundings in Mali as compared to what you'd experienced before in Congo and Malawi. What did you, what were you noticing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.524448127518741, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, most were not, but there were a couple. There were actually, um. There was one other person in our group who was a native speaker. He spoke French and English. He was a dual national. And then there were a couple of other people who had studied French and were quite comfortable with it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you get to Bamako and right away you must have noticed some differences between, um, your surroundings in Mali as compared to what you'd experienced before in Congo and Malawi. What did you, what were you noticing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, I think, I think it was, I mean. I was dealing with being in this big crowd of people, which kind of I'm not comfortable with. So I was sort of coping with that and sort of having to experience landing in Mali as part of this big, big group of people. And then there was just a lot of, you know, we were, we were greeted. The Peace Corps staff came out onto the tarmac and met us and sort of herded us into a group, um, separated us from the rest of the passengers. And they, I think we handed them our passports and they sort of managed the whole process through customs. So we were shielded from the usual sort of chaotic experience when you fly alone."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then they had kind of identified a couple of us to sort of help lead, um, the group through the process. And since I had had some experience that I kind of, I don't know if they identified us or if we self identified, but we, there were, you know, everybody was some having different. Some people were pretty overwhelmed. We were all very tired. And um, so I remember that like at a certain point, we were getting luggage off of the carousel after we had gotten through customs and everything. And that was chaotic, because there's all these people around and there's all these touts trying to sell you or get you to, you know, have them get your bags off the carousel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, and you'd pay them to have them pick up your suitcase."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.054874231504618, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then they had kind of identified a couple of us to sort of help lead, um, the group through the process. And since I had had some experience that I kind of, I don't know if they identified us or if we self identified, but we, there were, you know, everybody was some having different. Some people were pretty overwhelmed. We were all very tired. And um, so I remember that like at a certain point, we were getting luggage off of the carousel after we had gotten through customs and everything. And that was chaotic, because there's all these people around and there's all these touts trying to sell you or get you to, you know, have them get your bags off the carousel."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, and you'd pay them to have them pick up your suitcase."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And you sort of don't know who to trust and who not to because you don't have any perspective yet. And so I, since I kind of knew how to navigate that a little bit. So I, um, so me and a couple of the other volunteers were kind of pulling the bags off of the carousel and putting them into piles and, um. Uh. And yeah, it was just, it was loud and hot and just kind of overwhelming. Um, but they, they shuttled us through pretty efficiently. And then and then they got us out into the Peace Corps bus that was waiting out in the parking lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and actually, for some, I remember it's like sitting out there with just a couple of other people for a while. So I don't remember the process, but somehow we were getting led out, uh, one by one or something? I don't remember exactly, but, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a while ago."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.949860257227353, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And you sort of don't know who to trust and who not to because you don't have any perspective yet. And so I, since I kind of knew how to navigate that a little bit. So I, um, so me and a couple of the other volunteers were kind of pulling the bags off of the carousel and putting them into piles and, um. Uh. And yeah, it was just, it was loud and hot and just kind of overwhelming. Um, but they, they shuttled us through pretty efficiently. And then and then they got us out into the Peace Corps bus that was waiting out in the parking lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and actually, for some, I remember it's like sitting out there with just a couple of other people for a while. So I don't remember the process, but somehow we were getting led out, uh, one by one or something? I don't remember exactly, but, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a while ago."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I've never been to, uh, Mali. I'm wondering what the, what it feels like to be in Bamako. Are you at a high elevation? Is it, um, you mentioned it's hot."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 9.944289174697058, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and actually, for some, I remember it's like sitting out there with just a couple of other people for a while. So I don't remember the process, but somehow we were getting led out, uh, one by one or something? I don't remember exactly, but, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a while ago."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I've never been to, uh, Mali. I'm wondering what the, what it feels like to be in Bamako. Are you at a high elevation? Is it, um, you mentioned it's hot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it, is it a dry? Is it dry?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:167", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.82698797188562, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So I've never been to, uh, Mali. I'm wondering what the, what it feels like to be in Bamako. Are you at a high elevation? Is it, um, you mentioned it's hot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it, is it a dry? Is it dry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, it's hot and dry and dusty. Um, it's on a river. So in the rainy season it can also be pretty relatively humid. Um, uh, and we got there in January, so it was in their cooler season. So it wasn't as overwhelmingly hot as it can be. But for somebody just getting off the plane from the States, it feels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Especially in January."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:169", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.807764413206243, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is it, is it a dry? Is it dry?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, it's hot and dry and dusty. Um, it's on a river. So in the rainy season it can also be pretty relatively humid. Um, uh, and we got there in January, so it was in their cooler season. So it wasn't as overwhelmingly hot as it can be. But for somebody just getting off the plane from the States, it feels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Especially in January."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right. It feels, it feels hot and just kind of dry and dusty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Dusty. Yeah. So you get on a bus and the bus takes you someplace where you're going to do training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:171", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.897516014673602, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's, it's hot and dry and dusty. Um, it's on a river. So in the rainy season it can also be pretty relatively humid. Um, uh, and we got there in January, so it was in their cooler season. So it wasn't as overwhelmingly hot as it can be. But for somebody just getting off the plane from the States, it feels."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Especially in January."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, right. It feels, it feels hot and just kind of dry and dusty."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Dusty. Yeah. So you get on a bus and the bus takes you someplace where you're going to do training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right? So that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the training in Bamako?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.018540486520717, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training, yeah, was at. The Peace Corps had a training site there called Tubaniso, which means, uh, the home of the doves. Um, and it's, it's on the edge of town on the river. Um, it's a really nice, really nice place. It's kind of a, a farm, um, that, that has been used as a training center for many, many years. And unfortunately, now it's all, they've shut all that down in the last couple of years because of the security situation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But, um, so yeah, we get in this bus. It was a, you know, a large, uh, minibus by African standards or a smallish bus by American standards. So we're all kind of packed in there. Um, and it's, it was evening, so it was still daylight. We could, we could, or actually it was getting, it was towards sunset, I guess. Anyway, I remember going through the city, you have to drive through the city to get there. And so there's all these people out and noise and stuff, and we're all kind of looking out the window going, okay, this is our new home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, and by the time we arrived at the training center, it was dark. Um, and so it was, you know, time for everybody to go to bed. And so they have, they have these mud huts that they built at the training center for the volunteers to stay in during training. So we're each assigned a hut. And they had a whole, the Malian training staff was all there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had a hut all to yourself?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.255885441043507, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, we, we were assigned. I think there were four to a hut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so part of. We get off the bus and we're all hot and tired and it's dark and we can't really see where we are by then. And then, uh, and they're grouping us into who's going to be staying in what hut, um. And then, and then, then they had the, the, um, they had to teach us how to go to the bathroom because, uh, they had these pit latrines that they used with just a hole in the ground. So you had to squat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then instead of toilet paper, as in many Muslim countries, they use a little kettle of, of water that you use to clean yourself after you go to the bathroom. Uh, and so they had to give us a lesson about how to do that. So they had a male, uh, instructor and a female instructor to, you know, divided the group up into women and men. And so, so it was sort of comical and a little intimidating all at the same time. And then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had anything been said about this in Washington in your brief three days?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:185", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.173206045603896, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so part of. We get off the bus and we're all hot and tired and it's dark and we can't really see where we are by then. And then, uh, and they're grouping us into who's going to be staying in what hut, um. And then, and then, then they had the, the, um, they had to teach us how to go to the bathroom because, uh, they had these pit latrines that they used with just a hole in the ground. So you had to squat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then instead of toilet paper, as in many Muslim countries, they use a little kettle of, of water that you use to clean yourself after you go to the bathroom. Uh, and so they had to give us a lesson about how to do that. So they had a male, uh, instructor and a female instructor to, you know, divided the group up into women and men. And so, so it was sort of comical and a little intimidating all at the same time. And then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had anything been said about this in Washington in your brief three days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that. I remember that being sort of like, okay, this is, um, uh, not, not what I was expecting. Um, uh. So. Yeah, then, and then it was time to go to bed. And so we all turned into our huts and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Finally get to lie down."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:187", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.192451161782106, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then instead of toilet paper, as in many Muslim countries, they use a little kettle of, of water that you use to clean yourself after you go to the bathroom. Uh, and so they had to give us a lesson about how to do that. So they had a male, uh, instructor and a female instructor to, you know, divided the group up into women and men. And so, so it was sort of comical and a little intimidating all at the same time. And then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had anything been said about this in Washington in your brief three days?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that. I remember that being sort of like, okay, this is, um, uh, not, not what I was expecting. Um, uh. So. Yeah, then, and then it was time to go to bed. And so we all turned into our huts and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Finally get to lie down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you're in. You're in, uh, you're in this training center and you wake up in the morning and there must be some central place where you gather."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.21383462420234, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't remember that. I remember that being sort of like, okay, this is, um, uh, not, not what I was expecting. Um, uh. So. Yeah, then, and then it was time to go to bed. And so we all turned into our huts and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Finally get to lie down."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So then you're in. You're in, uh, you're in this training center and you wake up in the morning and there must be some central place where you gather."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So then, then. Yeah, I mean it's in the training center was very nice. There was an outdoor covered area that they used as a classroom. And then they had a series of smaller structures for smaller groups. And so we all met in that the main, we called it a hangar. There's all this, uh, pseudo English that, that Peace Corps volunteers speak. That's kind of a mix of various languages. So, so when I'm talking to people who aren't Peace Corps volunteers, I have to remember not to use the, like a hangar is a, is a French word. But anyway, so it's a, it's a, it was an open like a structure with a metal roof. And um, that was big enough for the whole group to be in. So that was kind of our main meeting point. So we, uh, that's where we were assembled. And, um, you know, laid out the schedule for the next three months of training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so what did transpire in those three months of training? More French for those who needed more French?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.973710046916789, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So for those who needed French, they got French and then and then those. And it was sort of depended on what site you were going to be in. So this, the training process is, I, um, I think it's a pretty impressive program, but it can be frustrating for the volunteers to go through. I guess you're not technically volunteers, for the trainees to go through. Um. Because you kind of don't know where your site is going to be yet. And so some of the decisions about what training you need are dependent on the site. And so you might start down one track and then things change in course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so and we're all kind of trapped in this place for three months. And so it can be, it can be a frustrating process. But, but, uh, so for me, um, I ended up being placed in the north of Mali, which had been closed to Peace Corps for, for, uh, several years before I arrived. And the crew of volunteers who had arrived six months before me were the first, were among the first, that crew was the first to send people to the northern part. So there were a couple of volunteers up there when I arrived, and then they were sending a few more up. And so we needed, we had different training requirements because the culture is different up there and language is different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, interesting. So what was the language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the language that I initially started learning was Bambara, because that's the language that's spoken in a large part of the southern part of the country. And then, and then when, when they decided to send me up north, then they, I switched to Songhai [also called Songhay]. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, how frustrating that would be."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:197", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.748566718796432, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so and we're all kind of trapped in this place for three months. And so it can be, it can be a frustrating process. But, but, uh, so for me, um, I ended up being placed in the north of Mali, which had been closed to Peace Corps for, for, uh, several years before I arrived. And the crew of volunteers who had arrived six months before me were the first, were among the first, that crew was the first to send people to the northern part. So there were a couple of volunteers up there when I arrived, and then they were sending a few more up. And so we needed, we had different training requirements because the culture is different up there and language is different."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, interesting. So what was the language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the language that I initially started learning was Bambara, because that's the language that's spoken in a large part of the southern part of the country. And then, and then when, when they decided to send me up north, then they, I switched to Songhai [also called Songhay]. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, how frustrating that would be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It takes a long time to master an African language."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.387296354218258, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So the language that I initially started learning was Bambara, because that's the language that's spoken in a large part of the southern part of the country. And then, and then when, when they decided to send me up north, then they, I switched to Songhai [also called Songhay]. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, how frustrating that would be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It takes a long time to master an African language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I mean, luckily, Bambara and Songhai and those languages are, are related. So like the grammar, grammatical structure is similar and so on. So it wasn't a huge leap. But, but, yeah, it was. You know, I started in Bambara and then I had to stop and start over again in Songhai. And so my Songhai was not as strong as it would have been had that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been able to start with it from the beginning. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:201", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.9858848380202865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It takes a long time to master an African language."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I mean, luckily, Bambara and Songhai and those languages are, are related. So like the grammar, grammatical structure is similar and so on. So it wasn't a huge leap. But, but, yeah, it was. You know, I started in Bambara and then I had to stop and start over again in Songhai. And so my Songhai was not as strong as it would have been had that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been able to start with it from the beginning. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but also, yeah, because I spoke French, I could use that as a crutch too, um. So yeah. And then we learned, uh, for me, learning gardening skills. So, you know, I, I was going to be working with women's gardening associations in a town called Ansongo in, in the north of Mali. Uh, so I needed to learn Songhai, and I needed to learn how to grow things in an arid climate. Um, and I needed to learn some cultural things. So, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What sorts of cultural things?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:203", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 6.650983153355874, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I mean, luckily, Bambara and Songhai and those languages are, are related. So like the grammar, grammatical structure is similar and so on. So it wasn't a huge leap. But, but, yeah, it was. You know, I started in Bambara and then I had to stop and start over again in Songhai. And so my Songhai was not as strong as it would have been had that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been able to start with it from the beginning. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but also, yeah, because I spoke French, I could use that as a crutch too, um. So yeah. And then we learned, uh, for me, learning gardening skills. So, you know, I, I was going to be working with women's gardening associations in a town called Ansongo in, in the north of Mali. Uh, so I needed to learn Songhai, and I needed to learn how to grow things in an arid climate. Um, and I needed to learn some cultural things. So, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What sorts of cultural things?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Well, you know, this. So. Um. For most of the other parts of Mali, they had had volunteers going there for a long time. And so they had, um, the training program was sort of based on the experience of volunteers and, and the cultural things that they taught were based on that region. But in the northern, in the northern regions, things were different. So we were, they were kind of improvising a little bit to get us covered. But it was things, just things like what to wear and, and, uh, how, like customs and families, like how to, how to, um, be respectful when you're visiting a family and or how to interact with people when you go visit a village. Um, and so some of those things apply to anywhere in Mali. And some of those were very locality specific."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. I'm imagining there would be some, also some things on what not to do and what not to say."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:211", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.8666105065628305, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and it's a real, it's a, it's a tension diffusing mechanism that is a really powerful thing in Mali. And so, uh, so we were all given Malian names as part of our training so that we could participate in that part of the culture. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that name stay with you when you went up north?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And, yeah, that was my name when I was in, I was Ali Touré when, when I lived in Mali and, and, uh, a lot of, uh, people that I lived with and worked with didn't know me by any other name. Um, uh, and that's part, part of the culture, the sort of. There's a culture of welcoming visitors and strangers in that part of the world. And so traditionally when a visitor came they would be given a name by their hosts, and so that would, that was the Peace Corps' way of sort of, uh, acknowledging that tradition. Um. So, uh, yeah. Um. But then, as it turned out, in the north of Mali, the joking cousin thing and so on is not as strong. And um, so it didn't turn out to be that relevant to where I went. Um, so I had to do a little discovering that kind of stuff on my own, which, which we all did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. Did you have the sense that, um, training gave you what you needed?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:217", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.206598774434609, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. Yeah, I mean I don't, I think. I think a lot of what the purpose of training more than sort of giving you specific skills, aside from the language skills. I mean, the language training I thought was really good. Um, was just kind of preparing you for something that was going to be, like, mysterious and difficult, you know, and so, and so I don't know if this was intentional, but I kind of felt like the training process was a little bit of a weeding out process. Like, if you could make it through training, then there's probably a good chance you'd make it through the actual service because, you know, we, a few people dropped out during training and they always made it clear that you're welcome to change your mind at any time, you know?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then it was kind of like an acclimation period too, like, okay, we're living in Mali and we're learning how to talk to Malians. Our training staff there was just phenomenal. They were really great people and very experienced. They've been doing this for years. Um, and so, and they understood Americans and understood our anxieties and so on. So they kind of helped us kind of navigate a lot of that kind of stuff. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they teach you Songhai?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, we just. Well, there was one other person who was, who was going up north with me, and so we had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, just the two of you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:219", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.673998638260677, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then it was kind of like an acclimation period too, like, okay, we're living in Mali and we're learning how to talk to Malians. Our training staff there was just phenomenal. They were really great people and very experienced. They've been doing this for years. Um, and so, and they understood Americans and understood our anxieties and so on. So they kind of helped us kind of navigate a lot of that kind of stuff. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did they teach you Songhai?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, we just. Well, there was one other person who was, who was going up north with me, and so we had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, just the two of you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, but they, they, for all, the all the languages. So people were learning several different languages. And so each language group would have an instructor and each group would be 4 or 5 people at the most. And we'd each go into these little groups and they, we'd. It was just kind of going through, uh, learning some basic grammatical stuff and learning vocab, practicing vocabulary, and having conversational practice. And kind of learning, starting with the kind of stuff that you'd probably encounter when you first arrive in your, at your site. So how to go through greetings and talking about food and how to buy stuff at the market and, and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is Songhai a written language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:221", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.193331820289641, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, we just. Well, there was one other person who was, who was going up north with me, and so we had."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, just the two of you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, but they, they, for all, the all the languages. So people were learning several different languages. And so each language group would have an instructor and each group would be 4 or 5 people at the most. And we'd each go into these little groups and they, we'd. It was just kind of going through, uh, learning some basic grammatical stuff and learning vocab, practicing vocabulary, and having conversational practice. And kind of learning, starting with the kind of stuff that you'd probably encounter when you first arrive in your, at your site. So how to go through greetings and talking about food and how to buy stuff at the market and, and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is Songhai a written language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it was not traditionally written, but they've developed a writing for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And are they using, uh, an alphabet that's like ours?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:223", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.659257578099601, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Well, but they, they, for all, the all the languages. So people were learning several different languages. And so each language group would have an instructor and each group would be 4 or 5 people at the most. And we'd each go into these little groups and they, we'd. It was just kind of going through, uh, learning some basic grammatical stuff and learning vocab, practicing vocabulary, and having conversational practice. And kind of learning, starting with the kind of stuff that you'd probably encounter when you first arrive in your, at your site. So how to go through greetings and talking about food and how to buy stuff at the market and, and that sort of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is Songhai a written language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it was not traditionally written, but they've developed a writing for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And are they using, uh, an alphabet that's like ours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there's the, most of the Malayan languages have a sort of a national, nationally adopted, uh, writing system that they use for education. Um, so they, uh, that's the one that we use. So it's, it's basically the alphabet that we're used to using with a few additional characters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's not Arabic script?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:225", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.176952864555112, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh, it was not traditionally written, but they've developed a writing for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And are they using, uh, an alphabet that's like ours?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there's the, most of the Malayan languages have a sort of a national, nationally adopted, uh, writing system that they use for education. Um, so they, uh, that's the one that we use. So it's, it's basically the alphabet that we're used to using with a few additional characters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's not Arabic script?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. It can be written in Arabic and, uh, Malians who are, who know how to write Arabic, write Songhai in Arabic, uh, or using the Arabic alphabet. But, but we learned it using the our Western alphabet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, that certainly would make it easier."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:227", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.7521698495056794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So there's the, most of the Malayan languages have a sort of a national, nationally adopted, uh, writing system that they use for education. Um, so they, uh, that's the one that we use. So it's, it's basically the alphabet that we're used to using with a few additional characters."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But it's not Arabic script?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. It can be written in Arabic and, uh, Malians who are, who know how to write Arabic, write Songhai in Arabic, uh, or using the Arabic alphabet. But, but we learned it using the our Western alphabet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, that certainly would make it easier."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To begin to grasp the sounds."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:229", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.391299832784088, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. It can be written in Arabic and, uh, Malians who are, who know how to write Arabic, write Songhai in Arabic, uh, or using the Arabic alphabet. But, but we learned it using the our Western alphabet."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, that certainly would make it easier."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To begin to grasp the sounds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you'd like to say about training before we go up north?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:231", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.1014442586489865, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "To begin to grasp the sounds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you'd like to say about training before we go up north?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I don't know, I don't think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You must have had some sort of swearing in ceremony at the end of training."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.890493620721096, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is there anything else you'd like to say about training before we go up north?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I don't know, I don't think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You must have had some sort of swearing in ceremony at the end of training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you're assigned to Asongo?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:235", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.76721513413455, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. I don't know, I don't think so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. You must have had some sort of swearing in ceremony at the end of training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you're assigned to Asongo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ansongo, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ansongo. And, um, how did you, how far away is that from, um, Bamako? And how did you get there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.021253252017964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ansongo, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ansongo. And, um, how did you, how far away is that from, um, Bamako? And how did you get there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was, it was, it was pretty, as far away as you could get. It was out there. It was the most, at that time it was the most, the furthest away. I don't know that it was the most isolated, but it was. So you had to go on the main highway out as far as it went toward the east and a little bit north of the main capital. And then the pavement ended at the Niger River, and then there was a ferry to go across the river into the city of Gao."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then from there it's all dirt roads. And it was a two hour. So that drive. It's hard to, I can't remember the distance. I think it was 700 miles or something from Bamako to Gao, and then it was another 60 miles or so from Gao on some dirt road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went from Bamako to Gao on a, in a vehicle of some sort?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.199078088911066, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then from there it's all dirt roads. And it was a two hour. So that drive. It's hard to, I can't remember the distance. I think it was 700 miles or something from Bamako to Gao, and then it was another 60 miles or so from Gao on some dirt road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you went from Bamako to Gao on a, in a vehicle of some sort?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Peace Corps, the Peace Corps drove me out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had, uh, a fleet of four wheel drive vehicles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you'd put your vehicle on a ferry to cross the."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:245", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.887864543234517, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Peace Corps, the Peace Corps drove me out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had, uh, a fleet of four wheel drive vehicles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you'd put your vehicle on a ferry to cross the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To cross the river."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The, which, which you refer to as the Niger. And of course, in Nigeria, we called it the Niger in English."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:247", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.54207171470502, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had, uh, a fleet of four wheel drive vehicles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you'd put your vehicle on a ferry to cross the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To cross the river."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The, which, which you refer to as the Niger. And of course, in Nigeria, we called it the Niger in English."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In English, it's the Niger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you were all calling it the Niger."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:249", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.268968571894466, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "To cross the river."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The, which, which you refer to as the Niger. And of course, in Nigeria, we called it the Niger in English."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In English, it's the Niger."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. But you were all calling it the Niger."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Niger River, right, because that's."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Rivière, uh, or le fleuve Niger. Le fleuve because it flows into the ocean ultimately."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:257", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 7.375352190054055, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. So, so then you get to Gao and then from, that's 700 miles right there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow. That would take how many days?\n\nWell, in the, in the Peace Corps vehicle, it would be, uh, we'd usually do it in a couple of days because there was in Mopti, which is kind of midway between, was a Peace Corps, uh, we called it a stash house, which more Peace Corps-ese. But, uh, a Peace Corps guest house where volunteers who could come in from their sites, um, to, when they came into the main regional capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They'd stay there. So they, usually if the Peace Corps took us, which they only did at the beginning and end, um, we'd stop in Mopti and then go to Gao. So it would be an overnight in Mopti and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then another overnight in Gao."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:259", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.9726135445045045, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow. That would take how many days?\n\nWell, in the, in the Peace Corps vehicle, it would be, uh, we'd usually do it in a couple of days because there was in Mopti, which is kind of midway between, was a Peace Corps, uh, we called it a stash house, which more Peace Corps-ese. But, uh, a Peace Corps guest house where volunteers who could come in from their sites, um, to, when they came into the main regional capital."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They'd stay there. So they, usually if the Peace Corps took us, which they only did at the beginning and end, um, we'd stop in Mopti and then go to Gao. So it would be an overnight in Mopti and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then another overnight in Gao."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then another overnight in Gao, and then down to Ansongo. So it could be done in a, in a, if. Yeah, it would be a very long day in a Peace Corps vehicle to go all the way. But typically it would be two days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two days. Uh, and then how far away from Gao is Ansongo?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:261", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.414015049449449, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They'd stay there. So they, usually if the Peace Corps took us, which they only did at the beginning and end, um, we'd stop in Mopti and then go to Gao. So it would be an overnight in Mopti and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then another overnight in Gao."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then another overnight in Gao, and then down to Ansongo. So it could be done in a, in a, if. Yeah, it would be a very long day in a Peace Corps vehicle to go all the way. But typically it would be two days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two days. Uh, and then how far away from Gao is Ansongo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was it's 60 miles on a very, at that time, it was a very bad road. And so it would take, um, it would take a couple hours."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On an unpaved road."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:265", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.338290184505492, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it was it's 60 miles on a very, at that time, it was a very bad road. And so it would take, um, it would take a couple hours."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "On an unpaved road."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On a, yeah. A very sandy road, a beautiful, beautiful road. Um, so yeah, the, that. Um, I think I went up with a group of people and stayed overnight in that guest house in Mopti, and then the two of us who were going up further north then went together, and we dropped the Gao volunteer off. Um, and then I went down and they dropped me off in Ansongo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so when you went to, when you were in Ansongo, you weren't there with a Peace Corps buddy. It was just you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:269", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.121345906796903, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "On a, yeah. A very sandy road, a beautiful, beautiful road. Um, so yeah, the, that. Um, I think I went up with a group of people and stayed overnight in that guest house in Mopti, and then the two of us who were going up further north then went together, and we dropped the Gao volunteer off. Um, and then I went down and they dropped me off in Ansongo."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so when you went to, when you were in Ansongo, you weren't there with a Peace Corps buddy. It was just you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was by myself. Yeah, yeah. The nearest volunteer was two hours away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Gao."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Gao, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's pretty isolated."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:271", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.468162118663226, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was by myself. Yeah, yeah. The nearest volunteer was two hours away."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Gao."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Gao, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that's pretty isolated."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, actually I should mention, that's not true. Because when I first arrived there, there was another volunteer there, but he ended up staying for just about six months. Um. Uh, and then moving to a different site. So. So when I first started, he was there all alone. He had been there for six months previous to me, alone. And then when I arrived, then, uh, we were there in the town together. He was a health volunteer, and I was an agriculture volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you share a house?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:275", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.281681627979291, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, actually I should mention, that's not true. Because when I first arrived there, there was another volunteer there, but he ended up staying for just about six months. Um. Uh, and then moving to a different site. So. So when I first started, he was there all alone. He had been there for six months previous to me, alone. And then when I arrived, then, uh, we were there in the town together. He was a health volunteer, and I was an agriculture volunteer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you share a house?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't. He helped me find a house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he actually, we, we were in kind of different parts of town because we wanted to, we wanted to have some independence and not be, uh. Um. We wanted to be able to. The town was kind of divided into a couple of different neighborhoods, so that meant he could have kind of focus on his neighborhood, and I'd be in my neighborhood. And, um, but we did end up spending a lot of time together, and it was a bit of a struggle for, for both of us to kind of get established. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I would think it would be helpful in some ways to have another American that you could, um, sort of pore things over with in the beginning when you're just getting started."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:277", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.7574240310881, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We didn't. He helped me find a house."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And he actually, we, we were in kind of different parts of town because we wanted to, we wanted to have some independence and not be, uh. Um. We wanted to be able to. The town was kind of divided into a couple of different neighborhoods, so that meant he could have kind of focus on his neighborhood, and I'd be in my neighborhood. And, um, but we did end up spending a lot of time together, and it was a bit of a struggle for, for both of us to kind of get established. So."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. I would think it would be helpful in some ways to have another American that you could, um, sort of pore things over with in the beginning when you're just getting started."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it kind of, you know, it's hard to say. In some ways it was good. In some ways it was a distraction because it was easy. It was easy to go over there and hang out with him and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have a beer. Or maybe you couldn't have a beer."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:289", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.210108047907671, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had, they had some money. They had, uh, received a loan. So they had bought some wheelbarrows and shovels and watering cans and things and some seeds. Um, and so I was supposed to work with the government extension agent to help these women do their gardening, and but I couldn't figure out why they why the women weren't going to the garden, and, um, it wasn't clear to me what they wanted to grow. And there were all these animals around, cows and sheep that were being herded around that would eat anything that was there. And there was no fence around the garden, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, oh dear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So there were just all these problems and nobody seemed to be doing anything. And I didn't feel like I, it was my place was to start, you know, them. I kind of wanted to be working on something that was kind of already in motion and supporting it. Um, so it took me a long time to sort of untangle the story of what was going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you're a man, and it's a women's organization."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That seems to be one more complicating factor."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:293", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.197664256676137, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That seems to be one more complicating factor."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right. And, and, um. Yeah. I mean, without going into all the gory details of it, I mean, the women's association had been formed by a man, um, who was kind of working the system. Um, and so I, I ended up kind of interacting with him. Uh, and then he would, and he was a mover and shaker, and he, like, he was a teacher, and he created a library and filled it with books. And so he had done a lot of good stuff for the town. But he's also very political and, um, so, so, I mean, I, um, it took me a while to get to the point where people understood who I was. They, all they saw was this white guy showed up and is living in, you know, has a, has a couple of rooms in one of the buildings in town and nobody knew why I was there, and they were very suspicious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and so it took me, I think, six months before I was able to make contact with this guy, the librarian, who, he like, he sent people over, like he was kind of sending spies over to find out who I was and ask me questions. And then they'd go back and report to him, and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so, so Peace Corps did not introduce you to this guy and sort of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:295", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.77518250741793, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right. And, and, um. Yeah. I mean, without going into all the gory details of it, I mean, the women's association had been formed by a man, um, who was kind of working the system. Um, and so I, I ended up kind of interacting with him. Uh, and then he would, and he was a mover and shaker, and he, like, he was a teacher, and he created a library and filled it with books. And so he had done a lot of good stuff for the town. But he's also very political and, um, so, so, I mean, I, um, it took me a while to get to the point where people understood who I was. They, all they saw was this white guy showed up and is living in, you know, has a, has a couple of rooms in one of the buildings in town and nobody knew why I was there, and they were very suspicious."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and so it took me, I think, six months before I was able to make contact with this guy, the librarian, who, he like, he sent people over, like he was kind of sending spies over to find out who I was and ask me questions. And then they'd go back and report to him, and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so, so Peace Corps did not introduce you to this guy and sort of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they, they introduced me to the agriculture extension worker, which was logical. He was, he was the person who was responsible for, for kind of managing the government's intervention with these women's associations. But he wasn't, he wasn't very effective for, for a number of reasons, not because he was incompetent or anything, but just because it was a really difficult environment. And so, so this librarian, and the agricultural, the extension agent was placed. He was a government worker and he wasn't from the town. He was placed there from somebody, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He'd come in from elsewhere."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:297", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.416869452686589, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and so it took me, I think, six months before I was able to make contact with this guy, the librarian, who, he like, he sent people over, like he was kind of sending spies over to find out who I was and ask me questions. And then they'd go back and report to him, and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, so, so Peace Corps did not introduce you to this guy and sort of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they, they introduced me to the agriculture extension worker, which was logical. He was, he was the person who was responsible for, for kind of managing the government's intervention with these women's associations. But he wasn't, he wasn't very effective for, for a number of reasons, not because he was incompetent or anything, but just because it was a really difficult environment. And so, so this librarian, and the agricultural, the extension agent was placed. He was a government worker and he wasn't from the town. He was placed there from somebody, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "He'd come in from elsewhere."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. This was his government job. And so, so he, he, he knew, he knew the local people and he understood the politics better than I did. But he wasn't the best, he, I don't know. He, he didn't, he didn't end up playing the role of my guide, um, for whatever reason. And so this other guy, the librarian, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who was really key. And it would have taken you a while to figure out that it's the librarian that's the guy that you need to communicate with."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:307", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.098070166618551, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Like I can look, go on Google Maps and see the trees that, you know, some of which I've planted, are there. And the garden, I don't think, ever became a garden. Um, but those trees are really important because they use them. They're fast growing trees and they, they cut the limbs and use them for firewood and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so, you know, it would have made more sense to maybe have a little tree plantation there than a, than a garden. But anyway, um, about a year into my service, I was getting, I mean, well, from, from the beginning to through about ten months, I was having a really hard time, uh, because nobody was, I didn't have anything to do. And, and, you know, it took, it took, it wasn't until 6 or 8 months into my service that these women came over to ask me to help work with their women's group. And so in between, up until that time, I was just incredibly bored and, like, trying to figure out what to do and going around and meeting people and trying to, you know, just trying to figure out what's going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then after the other Peace Corps volunteer left, you're all alone up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Trying to figure out. Yeah, yeah. That's a, uh, very psychologically excruciating situation to be in, I would think."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:309", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.553411296242834, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so, you know, it would have made more sense to maybe have a little tree plantation there than a, than a garden. But anyway, um, about a year into my service, I was getting, I mean, well, from, from the beginning to through about ten months, I was having a really hard time, uh, because nobody was, I didn't have anything to do. And, and, you know, it took, it took, it wasn't until 6 or 8 months into my service that these women came over to ask me to help work with their women's group. And so in between, up until that time, I was just incredibly bored and, like, trying to figure out what to do and going around and meeting people and trying to, you know, just trying to figure out what's going on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then after the other Peace Corps volunteer left, you're all alone up there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Trying to figure out. Yeah, yeah. That's a, uh, very psychologically excruciating situation to be in, I would think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean, I did, I didn't, I made friends with the guy who lived. I was, I was living in this two story mud building, which is amazing, like hand built, uh, kind of mud structure that they have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, and of course you don't, do you have a phone?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:311", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.0593458847142605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Trying to figure out. Yeah, yeah. That's a, uh, very psychologically excruciating situation to be in, I would think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I mean, I did, I didn't, I made friends with the guy who lived. I was, I was living in this two story mud building, which is amazing, like hand built, uh, kind of mud structure that they have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And, and of course you don't, do you have a phone?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. No. There was a phone at the post office. That was the one phone in town. I think the hospital had a phone. Um, but yeah, there was a solar array with batteries that powered the phone. And there was this tall antenna that that, uh, it was. So it was, it wasn't. There wasn't a phone line. It was through radio signals and or microwave or whatever it was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So communication. To communicate with somebody, you had to go over to see them face to face."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:317", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.940117811679368, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. To communicate with, to communicate with anybody in town meant going over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And if you think, you go to where you think they are. So if I wanted to meet with the librarian, I'd go to the library. And if he wasn't there, then I'd ask if anybody had seen them. And then, you know, walk around until I found him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then to communicate outside of Ansongo, I had a mailbox, so I wrote letters. Um, and then if I needed to communicate with the Peace Corps office in Bamako, then I could call them. But I had to go stand in the post office just where all the mailboxes were. And it was a very small room with the, with the postmaster standing there, and make my call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make your call."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:319", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 6.600130901865964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And if you think, you go to where you think they are. So if I wanted to meet with the librarian, I'd go to the library. And if he wasn't there, then I'd ask if anybody had seen them. And then, you know, walk around until I found him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then to communicate outside of Ansongo, I had a mailbox, so I wrote letters. Um, and then if I needed to communicate with the Peace Corps office in Bamako, then I could call them. But I had to go stand in the post office just where all the mailboxes were. And it was a very small room with the, with the postmaster standing there, and make my call."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Make your call."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And the phone maybe would work or maybe not. So. Um, yeah. So yeah, communication was all, um, yeah. This was, I was probably the, in the last sort of group of volunteers that didn't have cell phones because by the time I left in 2000, then cell phones were starting to appear. Um, um.\n\nSo anyway, what I ended up, I ended up sort of deciding that what I wanted to focus on was, uh. I thought it was important that Peace Corps, Peace Corps was thinking about pulling out of the northern region because we were having such a hard time. And I thought, well, I didn't, there were, there had been three other volunteers before me, and then there were the two volunteers in my group. So that was five people who had just like invested a lot of energy, uh, in trying to make things work. And I didn't want to lose that. And so I, uh, talked to the Peace Corps director and said, you know, look, I think I'd really like to try to figure out how to fix it and make it possible for volunteers to be up here rather than, uh, just abandoning it. And so she said she said, okay, well. And she asked me if I would take that on, and I said that I would."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This was sort of the close to the year, end of the first year?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:325", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.8671205786913085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. It was in, yeah, around the, around my year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My year point, because I had kind of given myself an ultimatum at about 3 to 4 months. I had told myself that if by, if by the 10th month, I wasn't, like I gave myself a few things. I said if I didn't, if I didn't have friends and I didn't feel like I was doing something productive, then I would leave. And that kind of freed me up because I had been, I was just really anxious about, uh, how I was going to survive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, so by giving myself that out, you know, I was like, okay, I'm, I can leave if I, if I get, make it through those eight months and leave, then I don't get to feel bad about it. I just feel like I gave it a try."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your best shot."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:329", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.3050871341868007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so, so by giving myself that out, you know, I was like, okay, I'm, I can leave if I, if I get, make it through those eight months and leave, then I don't get to feel bad about it. I just feel like I gave it a try."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your best shot."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And so. So then, uh, so it was in. And that kind of freed me up to think about different ways of making it work. And so, so it was kind of during that period that, as I was figuring out more about what was actually happening in the town and why, why people weren't interacting with me or didn't know who I was, and I started thinking about how to avoid that happening in the future and so on.\n\nUm, so then, then in my, my second year, uh, in Ansongo then I ended up spending more time focusing on, on meeting with people and to talk to them about that. Like, you know, we'd like to, we'd like to keep. We, or, you know, asking them if they thought it would, Peace Corps, uh, Ansongo would be a good place for Peace Corps volunteers to be. And, uh, what, how, how they thought, what role Peace Corps should play. And so I was asking, asking people like the librarian and other leaders in the town and, and people who were working in the government agencies and sort of trying to trying to build a, a model for how."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Things could be better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It almost sounds like that is critically necessary. And I wish that had happened before you got there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:331", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.450096815763112, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And so. So then, uh, so it was in. And that kind of freed me up to think about different ways of making it work. And so, so it was kind of during that period that, as I was figuring out more about what was actually happening in the town and why, why people weren't interacting with me or didn't know who I was, and I started thinking about how to avoid that happening in the future and so on.\n\nUm, so then, then in my, my second year, uh, in Ansongo then I ended up spending more time focusing on, on meeting with people and to talk to them about that. Like, you know, we'd like to, we'd like to keep. We, or, you know, asking them if they thought it would, Peace Corps, uh, Ansongo would be a good place for Peace Corps volunteers to be. And, uh, what, how, how they thought, what role Peace Corps should play. And so I was asking, asking people like the librarian and other leaders in the town and, and people who were working in the government agencies and sort of trying to trying to build a, a model for how."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Things could be better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It almost sounds like that is critically necessary. And I wish that had happened before you got there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right. And the thing is that the Peace Corps just isn't equipped to do that because they're based in Bamako. And they could send, they send people, you know, all the way out to Ansongo for a 1 or 2 day visit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But you can't, you can't figure things out that way."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:333", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6112186841812355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Things could be better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It almost sounds like that is critically necessary. And I wish that had happened before you got there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right, right. And the thing is that the Peace Corps just isn't equipped to do that because they're based in Bamako. And they could send, they send people, you know, all the way out to Ansongo for a 1 or 2 day visit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But you can't, you can't figure things out that way."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um, yeah. So, uh, then, um. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were meeting with the, the women's association and other people too?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:337", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.98915886935955, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, um, yeah. So, uh, then, um. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you were meeting with the, the women's association and other people too?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I met with women's associations and I, and then, you know, when I learned that there were all these really great gardens that were commercially successful gardens along the river, where the water, there was easy access to water. And, of course, most of those were, were men were, it was just like a guy had a piece of land on the river and became a gardener. And they had, they knew how to grow stuff in that climate. Um, and so I met with a lot of those gardeners to find out what they were doing. And then in the process learn more about sort of gender roles and like it, it was really not appropriate culturally for women to be gardening."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's a tradition against women, like handling hoes and things, you know, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my! Well, whose idea was it then that the women ought to have a gardening?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:339", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.2101765215106113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I met with women's associations and I, and then, you know, when I learned that there were all these really great gardens that were commercially successful gardens along the river, where the water, there was easy access to water. And, of course, most of those were, were men were, it was just like a guy had a piece of land on the river and became a gardener. And they had, they knew how to grow stuff in that climate. Um, and so I met with a lot of those gardeners to find out what they were doing. And then in the process learn more about sort of gender roles and like it, it was really not appropriate culturally for women to be gardening."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There's a tradition against women, like handling hoes and things, you know, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, my! Well, whose idea was it then that the women ought to have a gardening?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it's sort of an international idea about promoting women in development and the sort of, uh, general theory is if you teach a woman to grow food, then she'll feed her family, you know, and there's some logic to that in a general way."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But the women who lived in Ansongo might not have thought that was what they needed."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:347", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.368658011752188, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You know, and so this is something that you struggle with as a Peace Corps volunteer, because culturally, it's not, it's counter to what I feel that gender roles should be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that's the way things were there. And so it was important for me to understand that and understand that, that, that's, that's what was going on. That's why the women who were in the gardening association were not physically strong enough to do the work because they were older women. And, um, uh, although they were plenty strong. They could do, they could pull water out of a well much better than I could. Um, and they, they weren't, uh. It wasn't culturally. I mean, they, they, they wove mats. So they were, they, they were a gardening group. But what they really did is they wove mats and that's how they ended up paying for their loan was not by selling produce from their garden, but by weaving mats and selling the mats."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that that's something that they do traditionally. And so it made sense for them to do that. So um, so anyway, I did I did my best to try to get a better understanding of, of the situation of gardens in Ansongo. Uh, and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to interrupt you for just one minute. Um. Was, was the idea of gardening to provide, um, healthier nutrition for the families? Did they did, they need to grow? I'm not being able to, I can't talk. Um. Was the idea somehow to improve the nutrition that people had there, to start eating things that they didn't usually eat because they weren't being grown?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:351", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.9366148293236891, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And that that's something that they do traditionally. And so it made sense for them to do that. So um, so anyway, I did I did my best to try to get a better understanding of, of the situation of gardens in Ansongo. Uh, and then."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I want to interrupt you for just one minute. Um. Was, was the idea of gardening to provide, um, healthier nutrition for the families? Did they did, they need to grow? I'm not being able to, I can't talk. Um. Was the idea somehow to improve the nutrition that people had there, to start eating things that they didn't usually eat because they weren't being grown?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, well, it wasn't, it wasn't very clear. I mean, there's two ways. There's two ways that a garden can be useful in that, in that environment, right? It can either be to grow healthy food for yourself and your family, or it can be as a way to make some money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You grow, grow vegetables to sell in the market. And Ansongo had a weekly market and people came from all over the area and they sold, there was produce that they sold there. It was like onions, a lot of onions, some carrots and lettuce. And not the healthiest, like not the most vitamin rich vegetables, but that's what you could. Those were market vegetables that you could sell. Um, and it wasn't, I mean, there wasn't like a gardening program that had like a defined goal. And it was just kind of this vague idea that, that the bank, the, the, the small development banks that had been set up to provide loans for these kind of groups were under some national program that was driven by some international program, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ideas coming from the outside."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:359", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9517067967134416, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there were, there were, there were periodic interventions. Every once in a while a, a crew from some international NGO or something would come in and do a training about gardening or, you know, come to inspect the garden. Like that happened maybe once or twice when I was there. Um, but it never was clear to me, and certainly not to the women, you know, what the real purpose of the garden was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was kind of something they were being asked to do in order to get this loan."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. So, um. Um, so yeah, in my second year, I kind of was spending more time, I'm sort of kind of going around and meeting with people. And I was also meeting with people in Gao because there was the one other volunteer in my cohort was in Gao, and she was also doing gardening, and she was having a bit of a easier time of it, just because Gao is a bigger city and there's more resources. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she's a woman working with women?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:363", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.644082465078323, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. So, um. Um, so yeah, in my second year, I kind of was spending more time, I'm sort of kind of going around and meeting with people. And I was also meeting with people in Gao because there was the one other volunteer in my cohort was in Gao, and she was also doing gardening, and she was having a bit of a easier time of it, just because Gao is a bigger city and there's more resources. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she's a woman working with women?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I don't think she was having any better luck with the gardening association than I was, but she, um, she had made a friend with a woman who was a government agent who and had developed a good personal friendship with her. So that was helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but she wasn't, she wasn't, in terms of, like, what? She wasn't having any more success than I was in terms of, like, sort of providing technical support to a women's gardening association."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For probably the same reasons that you were running into these frustrating situations."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:365", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.937869405642581, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. I don't think she was having any better luck with the gardening association than I was, but she, um, she had made a friend with a woman who was a government agent who and had developed a good personal friendship with her. So that was helpful."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but she wasn't, she wasn't, in terms of, like, what? She wasn't having any more success than I was in terms of, like, sort of providing technical support to a women's gardening association."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For probably the same reasons that you were running into these frustrating situations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So, so I was, I was going to Gao and talking to her as another Peace Corps volunteer and also meeting with people. So Gao was the regional capital. So talking to the people at the regional level about Peace Corps, and there are also some international NGOs that were, that had offices there. So I was meeting with them and kind of, kind of doing some networking, trying to figure out if it made sense for Peace Corps to continue staying there, and if it did, then how, how to go about it and identifying partners and so on.\n\nAnd then when as that was happening, there was a huge rainstorm in Ansongo. It doesn't rain very often in that part of Mali, but when it does, there might be 1 or 2 rainstorms in a year. But there are these massive rainstorms, and they're usually preceded by a big dust storm. And, and, uh, um, and then this huge dump of rain and, and it just inundates everything. And, um, there had been a flood like that in Ansongo that had damaged a lot of houses, including the one that I lived in. Um, so I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you got there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:369", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.626999266225408, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So, so I was, I was going to Gao and talking to her as another Peace Corps volunteer and also meeting with people. So Gao was the regional capital. So talking to the people at the regional level about Peace Corps, and there are also some international NGOs that were, that had offices there. So I was meeting with them and kind of, kind of doing some networking, trying to figure out if it made sense for Peace Corps to continue staying there, and if it did, then how, how to go about it and identifying partners and so on.\n\nAnd then when as that was happening, there was a huge rainstorm in Ansongo. It doesn't rain very often in that part of Mali, but when it does, there might be 1 or 2 rainstorms in a year. But there are these massive rainstorms, and they're usually preceded by a big dust storm. And, and, uh, um, and then this huge dump of rain and, and it just inundates everything. And, um, there had been a flood like that in Ansongo that had damaged a lot of houses, including the one that I lived in. Um, so I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before you got there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was out of town. I was in Gao."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, and then heard that there had been this big rainstorm in Ansongo and, and so, uh, so then I had to go back down to Ansongo and get all my stuff moved out of my half-crumbled house and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you do this? How did you get from Gao, between Gao and Ansongo?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:371", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 4.029999184694898, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was out of town. I was in Gao."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, and then heard that there had been this big rainstorm in Ansongo and, and so, uh, so then I had to go back down to Ansongo and get all my stuff moved out of my half-crumbled house and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you do this? How did you get from Gao, between Gao and Ansongo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're not using the Peace Corps vehicle, and now you're on your own?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:373", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.255554649660998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And, and then heard that there had been this big rainstorm in Ansongo and, and so, uh, so then I had to go back down to Ansongo and get all my stuff moved out of my half-crumbled house and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And how did you do this? How did you get from Gao, between Gao and Ansongo?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're not using the Peace Corps vehicle, and now you're on your own?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So typically, I would use, uh, the public transport, which which were these old '70s era Land Rovers pickup trucks that were, they, they'd stuff like 17 people into the back of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Into the back of the pickup truck? Standing up or sitting down?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:375", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.5061718329566642, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're not using the Peace Corps vehicle, and now you're on your own?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So typically, I would use, uh, the public transport, which which were these old '70s era Land Rovers pickup trucks that were, they, they'd stuff like 17 people into the back of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Into the back of the pickup truck? Standing up or sitting down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sitting all hunched over, scrunched on top of each other, along with all their sacks of whatever they were carrying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you might be sitting on top of a sack of something."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:377", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.784635369951849, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. So typically, I would use, uh, the public transport, which which were these old '70s era Land Rovers pickup trucks that were, they, they'd stuff like 17 people into the back of."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Into the back of the pickup truck? Standing up or sitting down?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sitting all hunched over, scrunched on top of each other, along with all their sacks of whatever they were carrying."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you might be sitting on top of a sack of something."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And just scrunched in and can't move. And then on this, this horrible dirt road that had lots of sand patches and, and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can see the dust in your face."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:385", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.761370781819614, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that would, and with luck, that would take two, 2.5 hours. It could take longer if the truck broke down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and then, uh, I did. So Peace Corps was phasing out motorcycles during the time that I was there, but they, they had some motorcycles left over that they were, at the very end. They were sort of giving them out to some volunteers on a case by case basis. So they ended up giving me one because I was far away. But, but, uh, it was a hard road. It was, it was not. I had ridden motorcycles before and felt relatively comfortable on them, but I wasn't comfortable riding on, in that, these, these sand pits that were just, I mean, you had to be a really skilled rider to make it through those without falling. And um, so I, so I wasn't, um, and so somewhere in there, they gave me a motorcycle that I could use to go back and forth to Gao. So I think maybe on that trip I had ridden my motorcycle.\n\nUm, but then when my house was damaged, then there was a Peace Corps, uh, vehicle that was stationed in Mopti, in that city midway between Bamako and Gao."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was, there was a Peace Corps volunteer leader stationed there. So that's a third year volunteer who plays kind of a more of a leadership role, who, who, uh, was, had, was in charge of that vehicle and had a driver. And so he came up to help me when my house was, you know, uh, damaged. So, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your house was damaged? In what way? It's a mud house."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:389", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.1745318294069307, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And there was, there was a Peace Corps volunteer leader stationed there. So that's a third year volunteer who plays kind of a more of a leadership role, who, who, uh, was, had, was in charge of that vehicle and had a driver. And so he came up to help me when my house was, you know, uh, damaged. So, so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your house was damaged? In what way? It's a mud house."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's a mud house. So the foundation was, uh, got wet. And since it's just a mud foundation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then it, then the house. My house didn't completely collapse. A lot of houses did collapse, but it, it sort of, it. Some of the walls cracked and settled in. And so it was, it was no longer safe to be in and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you had all your stuff in there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:391", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.416146477118812, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's a mud house. So the foundation was, uh, got wet. And since it's just a mud foundation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Then it, then the house. My house didn't completely collapse. A lot of houses did collapse, but it, it sort of, it. Some of the walls cracked and settled in. And so it was, it was no longer safe to be in and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And you had all your stuff in there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My stuff was all in there. So. Yeah. So the, so the."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm assuming you had no electricity?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:397", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 3.3143298725909625, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no electricity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Um, so the, the Peace Corps volunteer leader came up, came up and helped me with the Peace Corps vehicle and helped me get all my stuff out. Um, and then that my librarian friend helped me find another house to live in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so I moved into that house, and then, another mud, mud house, and then, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to pay for these, uh, for residing in these dwellings?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:399", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.5714776362121805, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Um, so the, the Peace Corps volunteer leader came up, came up and helped me with the Peace Corps vehicle and helped me get all my stuff out. Um, and then that my librarian friend helped me find another house to live in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so I moved into that house, and then, another mud, mud house, and then, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to pay for these, uh, for residing in these dwellings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, yeah. Yeah. So we received a stipend from Peace Corps, which is I think it was roughly about $100 a month to cover our living expenses. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And out of that, you had to pay rent for?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:403", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.174663748410099, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, yeah. Yeah. So we received a stipend from Peace Corps, which is I think it was roughly about $100 a month to cover our living expenses. And, um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And out of that, you had to pay rent for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I think, I guess that was in addition to rent. So we were allowed up to some amount of money for rent, depending on whether we were in a city or in a village. And so I was in a town. Um, it was a little different in different, depending on whether, like if you were in a village, then typically the villagers would build you a house and, and then, um, that would be their community contribution. And but in my case, I rented a house. And so the Peace Corps paid for the rent for my house, and it had to be within their requirements, however they determined that. And then there were some requirements, like the house was supposed to have mosquito netting or screens on the windows and things, even if that wasn't typical for the houses in that area. Um, so, so, yeah, the house. So I was renting that house. So when, when I moved out, then I just broke my lease and."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and rented another house from another landlord."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, um, before we go on with your work, but, uh, did you cook for yourself? How did you, how did you manage food?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:407", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.9193379610001218, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and rented another house from another landlord."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did, um, before we go on with your work, but, uh, did you cook for yourself? How did you, how did you manage food?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, I ended up. So the typical way, I don't know what's typical. In Mali what was typical is that you would set up an, make an arrangement with a family. Usually you would have, live in, in a family compound. Uh, and, and eat with the family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so I didn't do that, I was, I, so I did, I had different arrangements. So at first I was, I ate with the family that lived downstairs from me. So there were, the downstairs tenant was a policeman from a different part of Mali who lived, who was stationed in Ansongo. And he was a nice guy. So I just ate with him. Um, and I guess I paid. I can't remember if I paid him or not for that. This is Malian hospitality. It's like you feed strangers, so, you know, um. And the real trick for me, actually, was getting access to water, because the water came out of wells and the quality of water wasn't great. Um, and it's not appropriate for a man to pull water from a well. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's a woman's role."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:409", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.354819956666802, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, I ended up. So the typical way, I don't know what's typical. In Mali what was typical is that you would set up an, make an arrangement with a family. Usually you would have, live in, in a family compound. Uh, and, and eat with the family."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Uh huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so I didn't do that, I was, I, so I did, I had different arrangements. So at first I was, I ate with the family that lived downstairs from me. So there were, the downstairs tenant was a policeman from a different part of Mali who lived, who was stationed in Ansongo. And he was a nice guy. So I just ate with him. Um, and I guess I paid. I can't remember if I paid him or not for that. This is Malian hospitality. It's like you feed strangers, so, you know, um. And the real trick for me, actually, was getting access to water, because the water came out of wells and the quality of water wasn't great. Um, and it's not appropriate for a man to pull water from a well. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, that's a woman's role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And so I had to, I struggled with that. I would, sometimes I would, and the guy downstairs had two wives and there was a well in the yard. And so sometimes I would wait until they were like, one of them went out to market and the other was inside doing something. And I would sneak out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you would draw the water for yourself?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:413", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.376320934156545, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And so I had to, I struggled with that. I would, sometimes I would, and the guy downstairs had two wives and there was a well in the yard. And so sometimes I would wait until they were like, one of them went out to market and the other was inside doing something. And I would sneak out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you would draw the water for yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Draw water for myself."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then eventually I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because I'm assuming you could not ask another man's wife to draw water for you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:419", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.671222131901982, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I could, I was supposed to ask."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, really?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was supposed to ask them to do it. But it was a lot of work. It was like the wells were like 30 feet deep or 20 feet deep. So, so. And those women worked so hard. They, all day long they were cooking and pounding grain and, you know. And I was like, I don't, I don't, I. It wasn't culturally appropriate for me to think this or feel this at all, but I just didn't feel comfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Asking, having her interrupt what she was doing. I mean, she probably would have felt honored to do it, you know. But, but I, I, it just, I was not comfortable with that. I just wanted to be able to pull my own water. I just wanted to do, you know, I'm an American, so I just wanted to be independent. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you would boil it, when you get it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:421", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.079135702113313, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was supposed to ask them to do it. But it was a lot of work. It was like the wells were like 30 feet deep or 20 feet deep. So, so. And those women worked so hard. They, all day long they were cooking and pounding grain and, you know. And I was like, I don't, I don't, I. It wasn't culturally appropriate for me to think this or feel this at all, but I just didn't feel comfortable."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Asking, having her interrupt what she was doing. I mean, she probably would have felt honored to do it, you know. But, but I, I, it just, I was not comfortable with that. I just wanted to be able to pull my own water. I just wanted to do, you know, I'm an American, so I just wanted to be independent. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you would boil it, when you get it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because I didn't really have a way to boil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you didn't have a little."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:423", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.532373002348126, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Asking, having her interrupt what she was doing. I mean, she probably would have felt honored to do it, you know. But, but I, I, it just, I was not comfortable with that. I just wanted to be able to pull my own water. I just wanted to do, you know, I'm an American, so I just wanted to be independent. Uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then you would boil it, when you get it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, because I didn't really have a way to boil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you didn't have a little."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kerosene stove or anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:427", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.595522225121142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have a."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Kerosene stove or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I had, I had. I had a little, funny little stove that was like a wick. It was like a, it didn't work very well. Um, so I didn't really have a way to cook. Um. Uh, so we would, we would, we would run the water through a cloth to filter it, to get any large like cysts or anything like that out of it. And then we would put a couple drops of bleach in it. So that was how we treated the water. Um, and then I eventually, eventually there was a woman who lived across the street who I asked to draw water for me, and I paid her to do it. And so then I, then I felt I felt better about, okay, and I just had a schedule where she came in twice a week. And so this was just so I'd have water to drink in, in my apartment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you ate your meals."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:431", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.562373117433508, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you ate your meals."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so then I ate my meals with the family downstairs. And then when, when I started making friends with the librarian, then I wanted to eat my meals with him because he was he spoke Songhai with his family, and he was a local family. So hanging out with the policeman downstairs was fine, but he wasn't a local guy. And so. Um, so then I started going over to his house to, which was a little bit of a walk. And, you know, it was stressful for me. I, I, I would just go over there every day and wait and sit and sit in his compound, and he'd be doing whatever he was doing. He was always meeting with people, and the kids would be doing homework by lantern out in one part of the courtyard and the women would be cooking. He had two wives at that time.\n\nUm, and I, you know, I would just kind of be sitting there not really being active and, and then part of the household and then, and then eventually he'd come over and sit with me and we'd chat. And I didn't always have a lot to talk about and, um, um. But, but, um, so that's how, that was how I ended up doing my food for the rest of the time that I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um. And then eventually what happened is that that I was, I was, I was having some success. I was making some progress kind of figuring out how to, um, finding organizations that would host Peace Corps volunteers both in Ansongo and in Gao and, uh, piecing together like what, what should be involved in a training program. And I was, I was working with volunteers in other parts of the country. So as part of Peace Corps, you have these in-service trainings, they call them. So every, every six months or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, you'd be called in to the capital city or someplace?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:437", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.6781524244629744, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. And we'd all meet up and it'd be a chance for everybody to share ideas. Yeah. And so I use those as opportunities to tell other volunteers about what was doing, what I was doing and get ideas from them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And talk with the headquarters staff about it and check to see if they had, they supported the idea. And so eventually then at the end of my second year, I, uh, wanted to stay a third year to, to be able to like, get this set up. And so then I was given a position to be a Peace Corps volunteer leader and set up a new regional office in Gao that would be kind of in charge of coordinating what was happening in Gao and making sure that there was region specific training and all that kind of thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I also set up sites for new volunteers, um, working, working with the Peace Corps staff in Bamako. So I spent my third year doing that. Um, so then, then I was, then I moved to Gao, to the regional capital. So this is a city of like 60,000 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. In your third year."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:441", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.3063610178555236, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And then I also set up sites for new volunteers, um, working, working with the Peace Corps staff in Bamako. So I spent my third year doing that. Um, so then, then I was, then I moved to Gao, to the regional capital. So this is a city of like 60,000 people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. In your third year."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In my third year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you, did you go home in between your second and third years, as some volunteers do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:443", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.673734464283915, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In my third year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and, uh."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you, did you go home in between your second and third years, as some volunteers do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, I did. They, they, I got a paid trip, so I went home. I went back to the States, um, and there were a couple of weddings happening, and so I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Timing was good. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:447", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.0663388447949567, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, I did. They, they, I got a paid trip, so I went home. I went back to the States, um, and there were a couple of weddings happening, and so I."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Timing was good. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Um. Uh, so, yeah. Came home and, or flew back to Seattle, I guess, and bought a one of those Greyhound bus tickets where you can, it lasts a month or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And went to the various weddings around the country and visited friends and then, and then went back, um, to finish up my service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that third year you were mostly, um, working as Peace Corps staff almost? Although you're still a volunteer."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:449", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.295932049772174, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Um. Uh, so, yeah. Came home and, or flew back to Seattle, I guess, and bought a one of those Greyhound bus tickets where you can, it lasts a month or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And went to the various weddings around the country and visited friends and then, and then went back, um, to finish up my service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that third year you were mostly, um, working as Peace Corps staff almost? Although you're still a volunteer."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're setting things up and facilitating things."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:453", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.8344840120644124, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You're setting things up and facilitating things."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. So then I was focused on setting up. So we decided, we decided that we would, we would kind of restart the northern program and focus, stay in Gao and maybe some villages near in the immediate surrounding area of Gao so that the volunteers could be closer together. Because everybody seemed to agree that it made sense for volunteers to be close enough to each other that they could help each other out."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kind of work more as a team."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that brought an end to Peace Corps' presence in Ansongo."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:459", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.777069975396999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I left Ansongo, we didn't, they didn't replace. In fact, we didn't. For that next round of volunteers, we took a break. So we didn't take, send new volunteers to the Gao region until we got the regional office set up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And until, until we got some sites set up that were better organized."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and uh. And so then then. Yeah, I was going to meet then, you know, my third year, I was sort of meeting, going to meet with the governor, meeting with the mayor, meeting with the heads of all these NGOs that were headquartered in Gao, meeting with a lot of local small NGOs. Those were like young, recent college graduates who were coming back home and trying to get a career started. Some of them, a lot of real good energy people, motivated people to work with. And, and, um, meeting, going out to some of the outlying villages and meeting with the, the village leaders to talk to them about hosting volunteers and what it would mean. You know, it was like a lot of, a lot of meetings and back and forth discussions. And so I think I ended up setting up, um, like five sites. Uh, so then when that, when that cohort of volunteers arrived, then I was involved in their training a little bit. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they would have had some training in Bamako, and then they'd finish their training in Gao?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:461", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.085633305996666, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And until, until we got some sites set up that were better organized."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Good, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, and uh. And so then then. Yeah, I was going to meet then, you know, my third year, I was sort of meeting, going to meet with the governor, meeting with the mayor, meeting with the heads of all these NGOs that were headquartered in Gao, meeting with a lot of local small NGOs. Those were like young, recent college graduates who were coming back home and trying to get a career started. Some of them, a lot of real good energy people, motivated people to work with. And, and, um, meeting, going out to some of the outlying villages and meeting with the, the village leaders to talk to them about hosting volunteers and what it would mean. You know, it was like a lot of, a lot of meetings and back and forth discussions. And so I think I ended up setting up, um, like five sites. Uh, so then when that, when that cohort of volunteers arrived, then I was involved in their training a little bit. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they would have had some training in Bamako, and then they'd finish their training in Gao?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More site specific."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:465", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.3402880320946495, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More site specific."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did, uh, we did a part of that three month initial three months training. There was like one week that you went to and did a onsite training. So we, we shipped a group of volunteers all the way up to Gao. So that was something that I didn't get."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so they could come and see what it looked like and meet some of their partners. And, uh, so I was, I was organizing those, those trainings and, um, uh, it was fun. It was, I felt, it felt productive and it felt constructive. It felt like it was going to lead to something that, you know, I was hoping that it would sort of establish a more solid foundation for Peace Corps' presence in the region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a, what an interesting story and what a leap from your first few months were. It must have been so depressing when you couldn't figure out why things weren't happening. To in the end, um, being able to set up things so the new volunteers coming in wouldn't have to go through what you did."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:467", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.4892089245496105, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did, uh, we did a part of that three month initial three months training. There was like one week that you went to and did a onsite training. So we, we shipped a group of volunteers all the way up to Gao. So that was something that I didn't get."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so they could come and see what it looked like and meet some of their partners. And, uh, so I was, I was organizing those, those trainings and, um, uh, it was fun. It was, I felt, it felt productive and it felt constructive. It felt like it was going to lead to something that, you know, I was hoping that it would sort of establish a more solid foundation for Peace Corps' presence in the region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a, what an interesting story and what a leap from your first few months were. It must have been so depressing when you couldn't figure out why things weren't happening. To in the end, um, being able to set up things so the new volunteers coming in wouldn't have to go through what you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that everything would be much more, people would be much more productive with their time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:469", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.6546765828329004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so they could come and see what it looked like and meet some of their partners. And, uh, so I was, I was organizing those, those trainings and, um, uh, it was fun. It was, I felt, it felt productive and it felt constructive. It felt like it was going to lead to something that, you know, I was hoping that it would sort of establish a more solid foundation for Peace Corps' presence in the region."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What a, what an interesting story and what a leap from your first few months were. It must have been so depressing when you couldn't figure out why things weren't happening. To in the end, um, being able to set up things so the new volunteers coming in wouldn't have to go through what you did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that everything would be much more, people would be much more productive with their time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I think it's a real testament to the potential of Peace Corps. You know, not everybody has a great experience in Peace Corps and, and, but. But one of the things that that is possible when, when things work well is, is you can have a lot of creative latitude, you know. And so I had the support of the Peace Corps staff to sort of, um, pursue this idea and, and it allowed me to be creative and, and, um, feel, feel productive. And so I, um, I, uh, and. Yeah, like you say, to turn what started off as a really sort of difficult and challenging experience into one that that was very positive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And satisfying and productive. Wonderful."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:471", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8385295364810004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that everything would be much more, people would be much more productive with their time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And I think it's a real testament to the potential of Peace Corps. You know, not everybody has a great experience in Peace Corps and, and, but. But one of the things that that is possible when, when things work well is, is you can have a lot of creative latitude, you know. And so I had the support of the Peace Corps staff to sort of, um, pursue this idea and, and it allowed me to be creative and, and, um, feel, feel productive. And so I, um, I, uh, and. Yeah, like you say, to turn what started off as a really sort of difficult and challenging experience into one that that was very positive."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And satisfying and productive. Wonderful."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then your time in Peace Corps comes to an end. You've now had three years in Mali. And you've now got, um. You're still in music. Did you have your French horn with you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:475", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.1586784401000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then your time in Peace Corps comes to an end. You've now had three years in Mali. And you've now got, um. You're still in music. Did you have your French horn with you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I did, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Mali?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, yeah. And I, I played it some, um. Yeah. One of my, one of my, uh, memories of that is of playing my horn when I was in Ansongo in that second story couple of rooms in the mud structure. And I was playing my horn, and one of the policemen's wives was downstairs sweeping the courtyard. So there's kind of the rhythm of the swish, swish, swish of her sweeping. And so and I was just kind of improvising and playing and then, and then I stopped and I realized that she was humming the tune that I was playing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, as she was sweeping."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:477", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.2874204890000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I did, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Mali?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, yeah. And I, I played it some, um. Yeah. One of my, one of my, uh, memories of that is of playing my horn when I was in Ansongo in that second story couple of rooms in the mud structure. And I was playing my horn, and one of the policemen's wives was downstairs sweeping the courtyard. So there's kind of the rhythm of the swish, swish, swish of her sweeping. And so and I was just kind of improvising and playing and then, and then I stopped and I realized that she was humming the tune that I was playing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, as she was sweeping."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But yeah, I brought the horn and, and played it a little bit on and off while I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, terrific. Yeah. So. So here you are now. You must be 32 or so?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:479", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.4304672100000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did, yeah. And I, I played it some, um. Yeah. One of my, one of my, uh, memories of that is of playing my horn when I was in Ansongo in that second story couple of rooms in the mud structure. And I was playing my horn, and one of the policemen's wives was downstairs sweeping the courtyard. So there's kind of the rhythm of the swish, swish, swish of her sweeping. And so and I was just kind of improvising and playing and then, and then I stopped and I realized that she was humming the tune that I was playing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, as she was sweeping."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But yeah, I brought the horn and, and played it a little bit on and off while I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, terrific. Yeah. So. So here you are now. You must be 32 or so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've, you've got your music and you have your degree in electrical engineering, which wasn't that applicable after all, in, in Peace Corps work. And you've got some, uh, experience thinking about agriculture and gardening and, and not gardening and, um. How did all this pull together for what your choices were after Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:481", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.47829690000000014, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. But yeah, I brought the horn and, and played it a little bit on and off while I was there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, terrific. Yeah. So. So here you are now. You must be 32 or so?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you've, you've got your music and you have your degree in electrical engineering, which wasn't that applicable after all, in, in Peace Corps work. And you've got some, uh, experience thinking about agriculture and gardening and, and not gardening and, um. How did all this pull together for what your choices were after Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, I came back from Peace Corps sort of not knowing exactly what I wanted to do. I felt like I wanted to continue doing work abroad. Um, and so in my fashion, I sort of took some time off and traveled a little bit. Um, and. Um. I ended up, uh, I ended up kind of falling back into the work that I had gotten before Peace Corps, which is being a technical writer, which has nothing to do with any of this. Um, and it's sort of easy, easy work for me to get that, that pays well. So I was back in Seattle being a technical writer, and then I, um, I got laid off of my job and then that. So that forced me to sort of focus on finding another job. And I ended up getting a job, uh, at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, which, which is, does research on renewable energy. So this I'm finally getting to what my initial interest in all of this was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right, you had said that you were thinking about renewable energy with your, um, degree in, uh, electricity."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:485", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.5904900000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, well, I came back from Peace Corps sort of not knowing exactly what I wanted to do. I felt like I wanted to continue doing work abroad. Um, and so in my fashion, I sort of took some time off and traveled a little bit. Um, and. Um. I ended up, uh, I ended up kind of falling back into the work that I had gotten before Peace Corps, which is being a technical writer, which has nothing to do with any of this. Um, and it's sort of easy, easy work for me to get that, that pays well. So I was back in Seattle being a technical writer, and then I, um, I got laid off of my job and then that. So that forced me to sort of focus on finding another job. And I ended up getting a job, uh, at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, which, which is, does research on renewable energy. So this I'm finally getting to what my initial interest in all of this was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's right, you had said that you were thinking about renewable energy with your, um, degree in, uh, electricity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, so, what. Uh, so, so they had a small international program at the lab, and they were, they were very interested in my Peace Corps experience and in my, and in particularly in my sort of, uh, I don't know, call it grassroots level or my experience sort of on the ground because they were, they were all very familiar with sort of the bureaucratic high level workings of, of the energy part of international development. So they were, they were very interested in my experience, having seen what those programs look like on the ground."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I think I was hired, uh, because of that. So I think that, that, um, that in a, in a, in a completely unpredictable way that Peace Corps experience gave me, um, some job experience that, that has been useful. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you do now?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:487", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.6561000000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So, so, what. Uh, so, so they had a small international program at the lab, and they were, they were very interested in my Peace Corps experience and in my, and in particularly in my sort of, uh, I don't know, call it grassroots level or my experience sort of on the ground because they were, they were all very familiar with sort of the bureaucratic high level workings of, of the energy part of international development. So they were, they were very interested in my experience, having seen what those programs look like on the ground."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And so I think I was hired, uh, because of that. So I think that, that, um, that in a, in a, in a completely unpredictable way that Peace Corps experience gave me, um, some job experience that, that has been useful. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you do now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I still, I still work for the lab. I'm now a consultant, so I'm a freelancer. Um, and I do, I do software training, um, and I do a lot of the training. Uh, some of it, I've been doing international training. Um, so I continue to keep my foot in sort of doing international stuff. Um, so it's kind of loosely related. The software that I, I work with is software that like solar energy planners and engineers could use for building solar energy systems in Africa or somewhere else. So there's, there's a loose connection somewhere in there. Um."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your, uh, experience in, um, your three years in Mali somehow affect the way you view the world?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:493", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. I think, you know, because I went a little bit older than a lot of my cohorts. I wasn't fresh out of college."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And because I had already lived in Africa and, um, it wasn't, as, I don't know, mind blowingly, uh, dramatic a, uh, sort of opening of my eyes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but, but, um. I don't know. For me, it just, it, it just gave me another perspective, you know, another perspective on how development works or doesn't work. Um, and another perspective on how Americans interact with the rest of the world, you know, just kind of being part of a group of Americans that's living in Mali and watching how my fellow volunteers were experiencing things. Um, gave me a perspective on that. So I'd say it's sort of, yeah, widened, widened my perspective. I didn't, I don't think it really changed it very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You had such a strong foundation and beginning in Africa to begin with."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:495", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And because I had already lived in Africa and, um, it wasn't, as, I don't know, mind blowingly, uh, dramatic a, uh, sort of opening of my eyes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but, but, um. I don't know. For me, it just, it, it just gave me another perspective, you know, another perspective on how development works or doesn't work. Um, and another perspective on how Americans interact with the rest of the world, you know, just kind of being part of a group of Americans that's living in Mali and watching how my fellow volunteers were experiencing things. Um, gave me a perspective on that. So I'd say it's sort of, yeah, widened, widened my perspective. I didn't, I don't think it really changed it very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You had such a strong foundation and beginning in Africa to begin with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, any other thoughts about Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00036:497", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, but, but, um. I don't know. For me, it just, it, it just gave me another perspective, you know, another perspective on how development works or doesn't work. Um, and another perspective on how Americans interact with the rest of the world, you know, just kind of being part of a group of Americans that's living in Mali and watching how my fellow volunteers were experiencing things. Um, gave me a perspective on that. So I'd say it's sort of, yeah, widened, widened my perspective. I didn't, I don't think it really changed it very much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. You had such a strong foundation and beginning in Africa to begin with."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Um, any other thoughts about Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Uh. Yeah. And I mean, just it's, it's, it's a complicated. It's a complicated, um, experience being a Peace Corps volunteer. You know, it's not. I don't regret doing it for a minute. Um, and it wasn't all positive and it wasn't all negative, you know? So, um, I guess that's my overall feeling about the, about the whole thing is. Uh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you very much, Paul."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00527:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 2.6377641100000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We are approaching not necessarily the time that we’re going to be closing, but a time to release you for your appointment. Before I do that, I was going to ask Sandra and Jennifer if they have some questions for you, and when they’re finished I have another one before. Then hopefully we can come back and meet with you again and start with your missions—the next ones that you actually got to fly and got to tell people about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve been too wordy, huh?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Absolutely not, but it probably is a good place to break. I don’t really want to start on STS-31 and then have you lose all of that momentum and good thoughts and we have to start all over again.\\n\\n So let me ask Jennifer, do you have any questions for today?\n\nI don’t have any questions.\n\nNot today.\n\nI’ve got one that when we were talking about support crews, I know that you also supported STS-8, which was the first mission to launch at night and the first one to—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Could you tell us about your role and the preparation for the night landing? I understand you helped developed and test them and those methods that were used for that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00527:74", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.71, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I suppose some of it was, but it was just kind of a natural thing, too, since I had been involved in a lot of the early days, I think at the Cape, getting ready to fly that, that it might think that it was kind of a natural thing to say, “Okay, here we are in the beginning part of a potential Vandenberg launch. What are some of the things that they’re going to need out there?” And looking at the runway and the lights and flying a few approaches and then just some of the basic things that went in to support the Cape, then you’d want to think about having that same capability at Vandenberg."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Is there anything else that you would like to add about this part of your career before we start again on your next segment where we pick up where you become commander of your flight?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don’t know. I think one of the questions you had written was what was some of the more difficult things, and as I look back on it, this business of being a casualty assistance officer is not easy to do. Totally different than the technical background that I have, and the duration of it was another factor. It was very, very long and very tedious work, very satisfying in some respects, very difficult to do though in some respects. But I would say that was probably more difficult to do than many of the technical things I’ve been involved in so far in my career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I would imagine that some of those duties just never felt like they stopped."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I mean, today it’s very remote in the past, but they did go on for a long time. And there are still linkages that I have, because of that work, to Ellison’s family in Hawaii that every once in a while get renewed in some way or another. But, yes, it was a pretty traumatic time for everybody involved and a different aspect of anything I’d ever done before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the training you’ve had, I’m sure it was very hard to be able to be trained in that position."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00527:76", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I don’t know. I think one of the questions you had written was what was some of the more difficult things, and as I look back on it, this business of being a casualty assistance officer is not easy to do. Totally different than the technical background that I have, and the duration of it was another factor. It was very, very long and very tedious work, very satisfying in some respects, very difficult to do though in some respects. But I would say that was probably more difficult to do than many of the technical things I’ve been involved in so far in my career."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And I would imagine that some of those duties just never felt like they stopped."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I mean, today it’s very remote in the past, but they did go on for a long time. And there are still linkages that I have, because of that work, to Ellison’s family in Hawaii that every once in a while get renewed in some way or another. But, yes, it was a pretty traumatic time for everybody involved and a different aspect of anything I’d ever done before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the training you’ve had, I’m sure it was very hard to be able to be trained in that position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well, all the training I went through was to do a job that I already knew quite a bit about, and that was flying an airplane/space vehicle. This kind of training is something you just don’t get."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After all those early effects of\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n , and, of course, being in that position you were in, did you ever have any doubts that maybe this isn’t what you wanted to pursue?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00527:78", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. I mean, today it’s very remote in the past, but they did go on for a long time. And there are still linkages that I have, because of that work, to Ellison’s family in Hawaii that every once in a while get renewed in some way or another. But, yes, it was a pretty traumatic time for everybody involved and a different aspect of anything I’d ever done before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All the training you’ve had, I’m sure it was very hard to be able to be trained in that position."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, well, all the training I went through was to do a job that I already knew quite a bit about, and that was flying an airplane/space vehicle. This kind of training is something you just don’t get."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After all those early effects of\\n\\n Challenger\\n\\n , and, of course, being in that position you were in, did you ever have any doubts that maybe this isn’t what you wanted to pursue?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I don’t know as that entered my mind. I could see the huge amount of rebuilding, redoing, reinventing that was going on in the overall program. Of course, the joint was redesigned—the solid rocket booster joint was redesigned. You get the feeling, then, that with all that effort that has gone into it, that actually things may be more safe now or right after that than they were just prior to that. And that’s probably the case in most situations like that. But, of course, it’ll only stay that way as long as everybody stays alert and vigilant and pays attention to detail. And from what I see these days, we certainly haven’t let up on that at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it almost seem, those preparations for return to flight, was it almost like being those first days back when you first started with the Shuttle Program, everything being reviewed?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00527:84", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, or even worse. I say “worse.” Even more so. Everybody is familiar with the terminology, the pendulum swings back and forth. Well, maybe the pendulum had gone too far in one direction, but when it swung back the other way, it probably went a little too far in the other direction as well. And when it does that, the amount of expense and cost in the program gets pretty huge, and the last little bit of that, it’s arguable as whether it has actually done that much to increase safety or not.\\n\\n I think the basic things that we did were what I think actually ends up improving the safety of the program, and we probably went a little further than necessary and encumbered the program for many years with a lot of practices or paperwork or whatever procedures that added a lot of time and cost and people, but actually didn’t improve the overall safety of the vehicle all that much, if at all. But I think since that time we have filtered out some of that, and I think we’re back more toward a rational approach."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved with the STS-26, of any of the preparations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really too much there, no, not direct support to what they were doing. Again, a lot of this casualty assistance stuff was still going on, even that late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I’m sure that those duties will long be remembered by all of those involved."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I suppose."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we’re going to close for today so that when we begin again we can start on a very exciting note of you being named as commander of your next mission and talk about those missions, and then move to the administrative part of your job as well."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00566:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 35, "return_to_go": 114.6488438632459, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was an interesting experience. It made us all look like we knew what we were doing. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you guys passed your first test."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We passed our first test. We had actually—I don’t remember now whether the—the Big Joe flight occurred before some of our launches of the monkeys from Wallops. They were some of our more interesting recovery operations. I can’t remember whether—"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think it was right before—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I guess Big Joe was just before the launches we had at Wallops. We launched a couple of monkeys from Wallops that were fairly interesting operations that gave a lot of insight into things we ought to do and not do and so forth. So it was a combination of learning by doing.\\n\\n In today’s mature world, we wouldn’t do a lot of the things we did then, but a lot of the things we did then allowed us to move on quickly, much more quickly than we would today. Things that didn’t go exactly as planned didn’t worry us quite as much. We didn’t stop and have two or three investigating committees look at everything; we just took the learning from it ourselves and went on. We were all learning at that time.\\n\\n I think the recovery operation was one that we put a lot of capability into, and we had plans for no matter what happened, you know. If the thing took off on some under-velocity condition and ended up halfway across Africa, you at least had a plan. You could go talk to someone. You could send some airplanes in. You could go do something. The same thing was true if you aborted on the launch pad and it was over there five miles from the launch pad in the swamp and the alligators. You could go over there and do something. The activity had to cover all those possibilities."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have ask you about some of the monkey flights out of Wallops Island there. Like Little Joe 2, I guess, was the first one, with Sam on board."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00566:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 11.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, have you interviewed a fellow named Rod [Rodney G.] Rose?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We sure have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, he’ll give you a few thousand words on the paraglider, won't he?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, he talked to us for a little bit on it, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Rod’s probably still sure he can make the paraglider work. He just needed more money and more time. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Something you mentioned in conjunction with this was the ejection seats, and they kept those even they didn’t keep the paraglider. How did that affect recovery?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.884224044665803, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a wonderful experience. It’s interesting to see how they do that. I said, “You know, this is lot like doing a Space Shuttle mission, in that everybody’s got to do the right thing at the right time.” They’ve got a very structured sequence of how they prepare for dress rehearsal and go into the actual final production and stuff, and it’s very structured."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it filmed live?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. In fact, the audience, the live audience for the Tool Time segment, did not know we were going to be guests on it when we showed up, so for them, I mean, their reaction was just outstanding. It was really neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can imagine. Did they all stick around wanting to get autographs or anything after the show?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 23.204693382962002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay, interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. In fact, the audience, the live audience for the Tool Time segment, did not know we were going to be guests on it when we showed up, so for them, I mean, their reaction was just outstanding. It was really neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I can imagine. Did they all stick around wanting to get autographs or anything after the show?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you start thinking about retiring from NASA, at what point? Was that before the mission, after?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.4755938, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did that for two years, one of the few jobs in my life that I absolutely hated. So it didn’t take me long to start being receptive to and even looking for other alternatives. Given the chance to go and lead the Houston division of McDonnell Douglas, I left in August of ’96 and went on to McDonnell Douglas, which became Boeing a year later through the merger. And have been with them up until January of this year or February of this year when I transitioned over to USA [United Space Alliance] on behalf of Boeing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Tell us about that transition and why you decided to—you were in Colorado before this, correct?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. You know, in 2000 I basically left the NASA business world and went off for Boeing and was working in the Department of Defense, the intelligence community, and some commercial space work. That was fascinating. I really liked that. I actually needed a break from working with NASA. It was okay. And had assumed that I probably would not come back to being part of the NASA contractor community; did not expect that I would get asked by Boeing to come back and join the United Space Alliance in a leadership position.\\n\\n So when that opportunity was offered to me, I had to look at it closely. And decided that I felt it would be a great opportunity to get back into the Space Shuttle business, primarily, but also to come back and work with a company that is trying to become something other than a Shuttle contractor. There’s some real challenges in that, and I thought that my background and experience off in another part of the government contracting world but not with NASA might help in that. So that was a large part of the decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You serve as the Executive Vice President and the COO [Chief Operating Officer]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that entail?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.972882, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s right. You know, in 2000 I basically left the NASA business world and went off for Boeing and was working in the Department of Defense, the intelligence community, and some commercial space work. That was fascinating. I really liked that. I actually needed a break from working with NASA. It was okay. And had assumed that I probably would not come back to being part of the NASA contractor community; did not expect that I would get asked by Boeing to come back and join the United Space Alliance in a leadership position.\\n\\n So when that opportunity was offered to me, I had to look at it closely. And decided that I felt it would be a great opportunity to get back into the Space Shuttle business, primarily, but also to come back and work with a company that is trying to become something other than a Shuttle contractor. There’s some real challenges in that, and I thought that my background and experience off in another part of the government contracting world but not with NASA might help in that. So that was a large part of the decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You serve as the Executive Vice President and the COO [Chief Operating Officer]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that entail?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s basically a Deputy to the CEO [Chief Executive Officer]. So I’m the Deputy. I’m Mike [Michael J.] McCulley’s Deputy at this point, and the way that we’re structured and the way that we operate, it’s pretty much just along that line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you’re moving away from just focusing on the Space Shuttle Program. What are you moving toward?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 11.08098, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What does that entail?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s basically a Deputy to the CEO [Chief Executive Officer]. So I’m the Deputy. I’m Mike [Michael J.] McCulley’s Deputy at this point, and the way that we’re structured and the way that we operate, it’s pretty much just along that line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you’re moving away from just focusing on the Space Shuttle Program. What are you moving toward?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, sure. Sure, you know, we have been sustained by the spaceflight operations contract and now the space programs operation contract, but that ends when the Shuttle stops flying in 2010. Eighty percent of our work is supporting the Shuttle, so how do we become relevant and how do we play into the Constellation world, the human-rated systems of the future, the plan, train, and fly aspects of the JSC operations for Constellation as well as for Shuttle and Station? How do we become relevant and make sure that we can participate in those activities as they replace the Shuttle and those systems replace the Shuttle as the focus of NASA’s human spaceflight activities? So that’s primarily what we’re doing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, very interesting. I wanted to ask you about your work with the Return to Flight Task Group. When were you appointed to that group?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, every once in a while we would meet with them and tell them what we thought we were seeing. Then they would tell us the things they were concerned about, which weren’t necessarily artifacts of recommendations but some of the things that they observed and the things that they were being subjected to that bothered them. So we’d find out some things there and factor that into the questions we asked and the way that we conducted our assessment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there any similarities between your return to flight and their return to flight after the Columbia accident that you noticed? Anything common?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, of course there is. After a team has sat down for two and a half years, it’s a ratchety start back up. Processes have changed, because they were deemed to be inadequate before, so now the new processes are there, and trying to—so everything that leads up to the decision that, yes, we’re going to go fly and launch is harder than it used to be, and I saw that. I saw that. The idea they’d go to two-day flight readiness reviews, two-day long, and I mean, that was very much like after STS-26, in that the conservatism built in required that you listen to a lot of things that may not really have to and could have been dispositioned outside of a formal agency-level activity but weren’t, because we want to make sure we all talk about this, not just, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close today we have two questions that we just like to ask everyone. What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency, or today perhaps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Challenging—well, in my mind there’s no doubt that preparing for STS-61 was the most challenging thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, of course there is. After a team has sat down for two and a half years, it’s a ratchety start back up. Processes have changed, because they were deemed to be inadequate before, so now the new processes are there, and trying to—so everything that leads up to the decision that, yes, we’re going to go fly and launch is harder than it used to be, and I saw that. I saw that. The idea they’d go to two-day flight readiness reviews, two-day long, and I mean, that was very much like after STS-26, in that the conservatism built in required that you listen to a lot of things that may not really have to and could have been dispositioned outside of a formal agency-level activity but weren’t, because we want to make sure we all talk about this, not just, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we close today we have two questions that we just like to ask everyone. What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency, or today perhaps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Challenging—well, in my mind there’s no doubt that preparing for STS-61 was the most challenging thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because of the complexity of what we wanted to do and gaining a constituency that believed that the crew could go and do all those things that had never been done before. You know, expanding from three spacewalks max [maximum] on a mission where two was nominal and three was exceptional, and going to five; the number of complex operations that we had. It wasn’t that there was resistance. It’s just that we were pushing the bounds, and so the way you have to demonstrate, prove, that you’re ready to go do that, not just the crew but the agency, was, I thought, a major accomplishment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Conversely, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Challenging—well, in my mind there’s no doubt that preparing for STS-61 was the most challenging thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because of the complexity of what we wanted to do and gaining a constituency that believed that the crew could go and do all those things that had never been done before. You know, expanding from three spacewalks max [maximum] on a mission where two was nominal and three was exceptional, and going to five; the number of complex operations that we had. It wasn’t that there was resistance. It’s just that we were pushing the bounds, and so the way you have to demonstrate, prove, that you’re ready to go do that, not just the crew but the agency, was, I thought, a major accomplishment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Conversely, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Conversely—now, maybe I answered that one wrong. [Laughter] Overcoming challenge sometimes is the most significant accomplishment. There’s no doubt that having commanded STS-61 and what we did on that mission was the greatest accomplishment that I was able to make and contribution I was able to make to the agency and our nation. No question about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the proudest moments of your career."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because of the complexity of what we wanted to do and gaining a constituency that believed that the crew could go and do all those things that had never been done before. You know, expanding from three spacewalks max [maximum] on a mission where two was nominal and three was exceptional, and going to five; the number of complex operations that we had. It wasn’t that there was resistance. It’s just that we were pushing the bounds, and so the way you have to demonstrate, prove, that you’re ready to go do that, not just the crew but the agency, was, I thought, a major accomplishment."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Conversely, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Conversely—now, maybe I answered that one wrong. [Laughter] Overcoming challenge sometimes is the most significant accomplishment. There’s no doubt that having commanded STS-61 and what we did on that mission was the greatest accomplishment that I was able to make and contribution I was able to make to the agency and our nation. No question about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the proudest moments of your career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Yes, still is. It’s way up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Conversely—now, maybe I answered that one wrong. [Laughter] Overcoming challenge sometimes is the most significant accomplishment. There’s no doubt that having commanded STS-61 and what we did on that mission was the greatest accomplishment that I was able to make and contribution I was able to make to the agency and our nation. No question about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the proudest moments of your career."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Yes, still is. It’s way up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other than babies and grandbabies. [Laughter] Getting married and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s funny, that you mention it, I think Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker told me something like that. You know, getting to be an astronaut, you know, pretty good; but getting married, having a kid, you know, a little higher."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yes. Yes, still is. It’s way up there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other than babies and grandbabies. [Laughter] Getting married and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s funny, that you mention it, I think Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker told me something like that. You know, getting to be an astronaut, you know, pretty good; but getting married, having a kid, you know, a little higher."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you’ve got to balance those things. If you put them all together, you’re going to fault over to the family stuff, there’s no question about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I’d like to ask Sandra if she had any questions for you. No? Do you feel like there’s anything that we may have overlooked that you want to talk about? We have a little less than a half an hour if there’s anything that you think we might have—."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00136:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Other than babies and grandbabies. [Laughter] Getting married and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s funny, that you mention it, I think Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker told me something like that. You know, getting to be an astronaut, you know, pretty good; but getting married, having a kid, you know, a little higher."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, you’ve got to balance those things. If you put them all together, you’re going to fault over to the family stuff, there’s no question about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I’d like to ask Sandra if she had any questions for you. No? Do you feel like there’s anything that we may have overlooked that you want to talk about? We have a little less than a half an hour if there’s anything that you think we might have—."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ll be honest with you. I can’t think of anything right now. I’m trying to think if there’s anything I could add that would be of value, but outside of the context of just what we talked about today or earlier, I’m probably done. [Laughter]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we thank you for your time. We’ve really enjoyed all the sessions."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.10774692967443, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "1965 to '67."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. And we're in Lawrenceville, Georgia. So Bill, if you can tell me maybe a little bit about your present work and family, your residence, any interests that you have currently?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, well, I'm still working full time. I work for an electronics company, a San Francisco based electronics company. And just as a general comment, my work has always been related to something to do with the television media or those kinds of audiovisual kinds of things. And I'm still in that field, working for a company that manufactures products that are used quite extensively in classrooms and conference rooms, and other places that have video projection systems where they show PowerPoint, VCR tapes and things like that. So I'm still in that sort of related field. Also, I've always, since I was 16, I've been a professional organist at churches. I took my first organ position when I was 16. Picked up the organ at age 13 after some background in piano, so these are sort of been parallel careers, if you will, so I still play the organ quite a bit, and that's a nice break, a nice diversion from the other work, which is mainly in marketing for SP Controls, is the name of the company. Two jobs keeps me very busy. But in addition to that, you know, I enjoy reading, gardening, music, going to plays and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I can just continue?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I was going to ask you to think back to the year just prior to going into Peace Corps and think back and maybe talk a little bit about your childhood, your education, things previous to Peace Corps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 34.56416325519381, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK, well, I'm still working full time. I work for an electronics company, a San Francisco based electronics company. And just as a general comment, my work has always been related to something to do with the television media or those kinds of audiovisual kinds of things. And I'm still in that field, working for a company that manufactures products that are used quite extensively in classrooms and conference rooms, and other places that have video projection systems where they show PowerPoint, VCR tapes and things like that. So I'm still in that sort of related field. Also, I've always, since I was 16, I've been a professional organist at churches. I took my first organ position when I was 16. Picked up the organ at age 13 after some background in piano, so these are sort of been parallel careers, if you will, so I still play the organ quite a bit, and that's a nice break, a nice diversion from the other work, which is mainly in marketing for SP Controls, is the name of the company. Two jobs keeps me very busy. But in addition to that, you know, I enjoy reading, gardening, music, going to plays and things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I can just continue?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I was going to ask you to think back to the year just prior to going into Peace Corps and think back and maybe talk a little bit about your childhood, your education, things previous to Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. OK. I didn't say much about my family, should I go back to that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah, go for it. Go back to that."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 17, "return_to_go": 32.84907028354868, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So I can just continue?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I was going to ask you to think back to the year just prior to going into Peace Corps and think back and maybe talk a little bit about your childhood, your education, things previous to Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm. OK. I didn't say much about my family, should I go back to that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yeah, go for it. Go back to that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I sort of left them out, concentrating on my own experiences. Well, I'm married to a fellow Peace Corps volunteer. We met in our project. Bernadette Spanuello. I was working with teachers and I was working in the studio producing the programs. But we've been married 42 years and have two grown children and three grandchildren. Four grandchildren, they're multiplying faster than I can keep up with. Three of whom are right in Boston, so that's another reason we wanted to participate in the Archives project. So and that's about it in terms of family. I live in Lawrenceville, Georgia. Atlanta metro area, delightful place. But going back to the other question. Leading up to Peace Corps, how far back would you want me?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just like the year before."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.365154843517548, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "As far as the Peace Corps volunteers and perceptions and conflict in a sense, even though it wasn't major. The nature of our work, at least for the, well, the teachers as well. There were three. Our project was divided into three groups, the producer directors who worked with Colombian teachers and television people in the studio in Bogota. And then there were technicians that helped keep the TV sets working in the schools throughout the country. And we did broadcast, by the way, to 97 percent of Colombia at the time, which was, when I think back on the primitive technology, but compared to what we have now is really amazing that we were reaching 97 percent of the population in education, standardized instruction."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is this radio or TV?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Television, television only. So we had the producer directors in Bogota, we had the técnicos as we called them. And then another large contingent of our project were utilization workers who helped teachers in the classroom incorporate television into their instruction and how to use it and their readings and motivate the students and do all of that. So just the nature of our work, working with teachers and working in Bogota at the studios and with other professionals. You know, it was unlike other typical, what you would think of as a typical Peace Corps project, raising chickens and building bridges. So there was somewhat of a, uh, not animosity necessarily, but we were looked upon by many of the other volunteers as not true Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you weren't in the trenches?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We weren't out in the campo as they called it. Well, you know Spanish. We weren't getting our hands dirty, you know, we were working in more of a professional setting. So we were quite often looked down on as not real Peace Corps. They're not real Peace Corps, they're in the city, living in apartments and living it up. But we didn't live up because we got, we were all paid the same, whether you lived out in the country with a family and had absolutely nothing to spend your money on. Or lived in Bogota, which is barely scraping through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More expensive, yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.072394270575053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Television, television only. So we had the producer directors in Bogota, we had the técnicos as we called them. And then another large contingent of our project were utilization workers who helped teachers in the classroom incorporate television into their instruction and how to use it and their readings and motivate the students and do all of that. So just the nature of our work, working with teachers and working in Bogota at the studios and with other professionals. You know, it was unlike other typical, what you would think of as a typical Peace Corps project, raising chickens and building bridges. So there was somewhat of a, uh, not animosity necessarily, but we were looked upon by many of the other volunteers as not true Peace Corps volunteers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because you weren't in the trenches?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We weren't out in the campo as they called it. Well, you know Spanish. We weren't getting our hands dirty, you know, we were working in more of a professional setting. So we were quite often looked down on as not real Peace Corps. They're not real Peace Corps, they're in the city, living in apartments and living it up. But we didn't live up because we got, we were all paid the same, whether you lived out in the country with a family and had absolutely nothing to spend your money on. Or lived in Bogota, which is barely scraping through."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "More expensive, yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With apartments and other expenses that we had. But we were all paid the same, so that was another somewhat, uh, bone of contention between the two camps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, if I could ask you to go back to your, uh, and I guess probably the most curious question for any returned Peace Corps volunteer is why did you want to join the Peace Corps? What was your motivation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.219622421239222, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it just so happened that I mentioned that I have always been an organist. When I got, that came in, uh, very well and that was very useful as well in Colombia. Because at the time, and it's sort of still true, there were no well-trained organists in the country. I think partly because I think it was primarily a Catholic country and they didn't really emphasize, although there were lots of organs all over the place, there were very few, if any, really good organists. And so I was able to teach organ during the downtimes. As you probably know, you have quite a bit of downtime in the Peace Corps. So during school vacations or other times when we weren't doing anything in this new television, and sometimes this could be several weeks at a time, I was able to fill that time by teaching organ at the National Conservatory. And I also played concerts in Bogota and a couple of the other cities because it just so happened that the Banco de la Republica shortly after we arrived had built a new concert hall and imported a pipe organ from Germany and installed it. And there was really no one to play that. So I played several concerts and also taught in Bogota and Ibagué, which has the conservatory, down in the Tolima province. So I like to stay busy as you can tell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned. Well, let me ask you. So it sounds like you heard about the Peace Corps from your friend Bill."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hetzer, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what, as far as the process for you, what was that process like? I know the background check got a little sidetracked, but what did you have to do in order to get in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.688469356932469, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And it just so happened that I mentioned that I have always been an organist. When I got, that came in, uh, very well and that was very useful as well in Colombia. Because at the time, and it's sort of still true, there were no well-trained organists in the country. I think partly because I think it was primarily a Catholic country and they didn't really emphasize, although there were lots of organs all over the place, there were very few, if any, really good organists. And so I was able to teach organ during the downtimes. As you probably know, you have quite a bit of downtime in the Peace Corps. So during school vacations or other times when we weren't doing anything in this new television, and sometimes this could be several weeks at a time, I was able to fill that time by teaching organ at the National Conservatory. And I also played concerts in Bogota and a couple of the other cities because it just so happened that the Banco de la Republica shortly after we arrived had built a new concert hall and imported a pipe organ from Germany and installed it. And there was really no one to play that. So I played several concerts and also taught in Bogota and Ibagué, which has the conservatory, down in the Tolima province. So I like to stay busy as you can tell."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned. Well, let me ask you. So it sounds like you heard about the Peace Corps from your friend Bill."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hetzer, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what, as far as the process for you, what was that process like? I know the background check got a little sidetracked, but what did you have to do in order to get in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I frankly don't remember. I mean, there must have been some forms to fill out at some point that we mailed in. But I just I don't remember the details of the application or interview process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Maybe it was easier for you back then."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.320521507702743, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hetzer, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what, as far as the process for you, what was that process like? I know the background check got a little sidetracked, but what did you have to do in order to get in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I frankly don't remember. I mean, there must have been some forms to fill out at some point that we mailed in. But I just I don't remember the details of the application or interview process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, OK. Maybe it was easier for you back then."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It might have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, that's good. It sounds like it probably wasn't, it was something that was just a side note. Um, do you remember, you know, back in the early sixties, you mentioned and you referred to it as a Peace Corps project. Was there any political or social kind of, you know, what was the climate back then as far as the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 18.914224083583633, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It might have been."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well, that's good. It sounds like it probably wasn't, it was something that was just a side note. Um, do you remember, you know, back in the early sixties, you mentioned and you referred to it as a Peace Corps project. Was there any political or social kind of, you know, what was the climate back then as far as the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the U.S.?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or in Colombia?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I was thinking about the U.S. and you were obviously in the early years of the Peace Corps."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.571360092870705, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In the U.S.?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or in Colombia?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I was thinking about the U.S. and you were obviously in the early years of the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, this was '65, of course. And by then, you know, Kennedy had been assassinated. And there was a lot of turmoil and he was still very much revered by the younger generation especially and also revered in Colombia. I mean, we would visit a home and, if I recall correctly, there would be a picture of like the Pope and then John F. Kennedy in almost every Colombian home. So they loved Kennedy, again. So it was, his legacy was still very much alive in '65. I was not really involved in politics or, you know, protests against, protesting against the Vietnam War. I'd not gotten involved in those kinds of things at the time. I'm not sure why, but I was just concentrating on my work and school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. What was the reaction like your family and friends, like when you told them you were going overseas for two years?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.30151121430078, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Or in Colombia?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I was thinking about the U.S. and you were obviously in the early years of the Peace Corps."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, this was '65, of course. And by then, you know, Kennedy had been assassinated. And there was a lot of turmoil and he was still very much revered by the younger generation especially and also revered in Colombia. I mean, we would visit a home and, if I recall correctly, there would be a picture of like the Pope and then John F. Kennedy in almost every Colombian home. So they loved Kennedy, again. So it was, his legacy was still very much alive in '65. I was not really involved in politics or, you know, protests against, protesting against the Vietnam War. I'd not gotten involved in those kinds of things at the time. I'm not sure why, but I was just concentrating on my work and school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. What was the reaction like your family and friends, like when you told them you were going overseas for two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They already knew I was crazy because I went from a small town in Texas to Boston, to Boston University to study. And so they already knew I was somewhat of a free spirit. So my immediate family, I'm sure, was not at all surprised. But when I brought my wife- to-be home to this small town, the neighbors said, well, why would you want to marry a Yankee? We have so many southern girls here. So I was always somewhat of a rebel, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They expected it of you I guess."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 19.22390134922309, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, this was '65, of course. And by then, you know, Kennedy had been assassinated. And there was a lot of turmoil and he was still very much revered by the younger generation especially and also revered in Colombia. I mean, we would visit a home and, if I recall correctly, there would be a picture of like the Pope and then John F. Kennedy in almost every Colombian home. So they loved Kennedy, again. So it was, his legacy was still very much alive in '65. I was not really involved in politics or, you know, protests against, protesting against the Vietnam War. I'd not gotten involved in those kinds of things at the time. I'm not sure why, but I was just concentrating on my work and school."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure. What was the reaction like your family and friends, like when you told them you were going overseas for two years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They already knew I was crazy because I went from a small town in Texas to Boston, to Boston University to study. And so they already knew I was somewhat of a free spirit. So my immediate family, I'm sure, was not at all surprised. But when I brought my wife- to-be home to this small town, the neighbors said, well, why would you want to marry a Yankee? We have so many southern girls here. So I was always somewhat of a rebel, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They expected it of you I guess."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They weren't surprised, I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any hesitation on your part or any trepidation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 11.359890388025658, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They already knew I was crazy because I went from a small town in Texas to Boston, to Boston University to study. And so they already knew I was somewhat of a free spirit. So my immediate family, I'm sure, was not at all surprised. But when I brought my wife- to-be home to this small town, the neighbors said, well, why would you want to marry a Yankee? We have so many southern girls here. So I was always somewhat of a rebel, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They expected it of you I guess."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They weren't surprised, I mean."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there any hesitation on your part or any trepidation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not at all. Oh, I was so excited. I loved to travel. I loved to fly. I loved Spanish and I loved to. I'd just been to Europe for the first time the previous summer, actually, in '64. The summer of '64, I spent six weeks in Europe where my twin brother was studying organ on a Fulbright scholarship in Germany. And so I visited him and went all over Europe and I loved it. Had a Eurail pass, which I bought a 30 day Eurail pass, but nobody really checked the dates, so I used it for six months."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. Well, so tell me a little bit more about your training, how big was your training group and it says you mentioned that you had training at L.A. State. Did you live in dorms or what was your training like?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.06272075644662, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The training group, first of all, first of all. Very, very interesting, creative bunch of people who are just, to this day, just phenomenal. But this group of people got together at that time and they're still very close. We had, just to give you an example on the side, we had a reunion two or three years ago and more than 50 percent of our group shoed up there. And that was in Washington, D.C. So that's how close we were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we've lost a few, very few though, considering the age group, but I think we've only lost two or three. Passed away, but it was a fascinating group of people. I think, uh. [to his wife, Bernadette Thompson] Bunny, correct me if you hear me say something wrong. Fifty seven or so?\n\nI've been biting my tongue.\n\nSixty four? How many were in our group?\n\nThere were 42 utilization people. And there were about 11 tecnicos and there were probably, um.\n\nSix?\n\nYeah. There were 11 producer directors and about six tecnicos. About 42 utilization people who were former teachers.\n\nRight around 60, 62.\n\nYeah.\n\nNow, of course, those were the ones that finished the project. I'm not sure, a few were, um. Peace Corps at the time had a very, very government sounding term. You weren't. You were never rejected. They had a selection process that took place, but you were never rejected. You were \"deselected,\" which I thought was a wonderful government type term."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Um, so that was somewhat nerve-racking, whether you were going to make the next cut or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like American Idol or something?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.292143478292228, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What did Ken Wiseman do?\n\nAnd another guy, Ken Wiseman, became a very talented producer director type, came back and somehow hooked up with another person in New York, and he was the original producer of Grease on Broadway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he was the producer on some other Broadway shows and things. And then Bill Hetzer, our dear friend, went to UNICEF and had a career as UNICEF's communications director. And then another guy, another one of our producers, is still working actually as well. Steve Shepherd is an editor for CBS and 60 Minutes and some other programs, videotape editor. And um, who else?\n\nDid you mention Steve Shepherd, Bill Hetzer?\n\nYeah, yeah. Steve Shepherd, Bill Hetzer.\n\nKen Wiseman.\n\nKen Wiseman. And those are, I guess, some of the outstanding ones.\n\nThose are the ones you might know. They're all enormously talented.\n\nOne other guy was a broadcaster, a commentator or newsman, on ABC Radio and also taught journalism at Boston University.\n\nRemember Jack Marrow?\n\nWell, yeah, I don't know much about what he did. Something in health care, got his PhD in health policy or health something, public health or something. So again, we just had some very, very gifted and talented people who were really interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the whole deselection process happen? Did it start there in L.A.?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.769048309213587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What did Ken Wiseman do?\n\nAnd another guy, Ken Wiseman, became a very talented producer director type, came back and somehow hooked up with another person in New York, and he was the original producer of Grease on Broadway."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's funny."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, he was the producer on some other Broadway shows and things. And then Bill Hetzer, our dear friend, went to UNICEF and had a career as UNICEF's communications director. And then another guy, another one of our producers, is still working actually as well. Steve Shepherd is an editor for CBS and 60 Minutes and some other programs, videotape editor. And um, who else?\n\nDid you mention Steve Shepherd, Bill Hetzer?\n\nYeah, yeah. Steve Shepherd, Bill Hetzer.\n\nKen Wiseman.\n\nKen Wiseman. And those are, I guess, some of the outstanding ones.\n\nThose are the ones you might know. They're all enormously talented.\n\nOne other guy was a broadcaster, a commentator or newsman, on ABC Radio and also taught journalism at Boston University.\n\nRemember Jack Marrow?\n\nWell, yeah, I don't know much about what he did. Something in health care, got his PhD in health policy or health something, public health or something. So again, we just had some very, very gifted and talented people who were really interesting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did the whole deselection process happen? Did it start there in L.A.?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I heard somebody else mention hatchet men. It was another sixties volunteer, and she said that's what they used to call the."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:90", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 7.268782669126027, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I mean, I heard somebody else mention hatchet men. It was another sixties volunteer, and she said that's what they used to call the."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't think we called them hatchet men. But at that time, and this might be interesting to some of the current volunteers. At that time, when you joined the Peace Corps, you went through training and they had some interviews and psychological evaluations and things at least two or three different times. And we lost, one phase where we might lose one or two people, and the next step we might lose two or three more, that were deselected. And then finally, you know, there's more further accepting this position. Finally, if you made it to the very end and you were finally in, you know, were in for good. Then you made plans to go on to Colombia. I understand now that they send them to the country, they're thinking. Well see, we, that's not. We didn't go to Colombia until after. The training and then Colombia. There was no back and forth or pre-exposure to the country. But I think that sounds good because of course, we had a few people who went to Colombia and for various reasons came home early for some reason. Some got married or that had family problems back here or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now they do all the weeding out before you go, so only the people who are going to the country are the ones that have been, had the background check and passed all the psychological tests and stuff like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's, yeah, well, that's our process was like, but you didn't go to the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Well, we didn't even go to training because all the training now is done in country. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:92", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 8.609636746114964, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't think we called them hatchet men. But at that time, and this might be interesting to some of the current volunteers. At that time, when you joined the Peace Corps, you went through training and they had some interviews and psychological evaluations and things at least two or three different times. And we lost, one phase where we might lose one or two people, and the next step we might lose two or three more, that were deselected. And then finally, you know, there's more further accepting this position. Finally, if you made it to the very end and you were finally in, you know, were in for good. Then you made plans to go on to Colombia. I understand now that they send them to the country, they're thinking. Well see, we, that's not. We didn't go to Colombia until after. The training and then Colombia. There was no back and forth or pre-exposure to the country. But I think that sounds good because of course, we had a few people who went to Colombia and for various reasons came home early for some reason. Some got married or that had family problems back here or something."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now they do all the weeding out before you go, so only the people who are going to the country are the ones that have been, had the background check and passed all the psychological tests and stuff like that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's, yeah, well, that's our process was like, but you didn't go to the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Well, we didn't even go to training because all the training now is done in country. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It seems like there was something else that I was going to mention about training.\n\n[inaudible]\n\nThey disappeared in the middle of the night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They couldn't say goodbye to you or anything?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:94", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.937823143351806, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that's, yeah, well, that's our process was like, but you didn't go to the country."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right. Well, we didn't even go to training because all the training now is done in country. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It seems like there was something else that I was going to mention about training.\n\n[inaudible]\n\nThey disappeared in the middle of the night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They couldn't say goodbye to you or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they disappeared.\n\nIn the night, they did. If they weren't in place at 8:00 in the morning, we knew.\n\nLike a little archipelago. It was just.\n\nAnd we lost, not a lot. It was almost predictable. We were a very young group. I was one of the oldest of the young group. I was 29. And the youngest had not graduated or had just gotten out of high school. And we had one 70 year old woman who made it, did very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A 70 year old man?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:96", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 8.145162062210982, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It seems like there was something else that I was going to mention about training.\n\n[inaudible]\n\nThey disappeared in the middle of the night."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They couldn't say goodbye to you or anything?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they disappeared.\n\nIn the night, they did. If they weren't in place at 8:00 in the morning, we knew.\n\nLike a little archipelago. It was just.\n\nAnd we lost, not a lot. It was almost predictable. We were a very young group. I was one of the oldest of the young group. I was 29. And the youngest had not graduated or had just gotten out of high school. And we had one 70 year old woman who made it, did very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A 70 year old man?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Woman, lady. Rita Shields. And then we had one older gentleman who was a former Army person, military man, and he did not make it.\n\nHis first objective was to set up a spy network in Colombia. That's what he was going to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. No conflict there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:100", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.17994522513486, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they disappeared.\n\nIn the night, they did. If they weren't in place at 8:00 in the morning, we knew.\n\nLike a little archipelago. It was just.\n\nAnd we lost, not a lot. It was almost predictable. We were a very young group. I was one of the oldest of the young group. I was 29. And the youngest had not graduated or had just gotten out of high school. And we had one 70 year old woman who made it, did very well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A 70 year old man?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Woman, lady. Rita Shields. And then we had one older gentleman who was a former Army person, military man, and he did not make it.\n\nHis first objective was to set up a spy network in Colombia. That's what he was going to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. No conflict there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was scary. Yeah, it was nerve wracking, upsetting, for some of us.\n\nBecause you didn't know until the very end, if you were going to go or not, after going after doing all that work.\n\nAnd try to explain that to your parents."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How long was the training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.311050250149844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Woman, lady. Rita Shields. And then we had one older gentleman who was a former Army person, military man, and he did not make it.\n\nHis first objective was to set up a spy network in Colombia. That's what he was going to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow. No conflict there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was scary. Yeah, it was nerve wracking, upsetting, for some of us.\n\nBecause you didn't know until the very end, if you were going to go or not, after going after doing all that work.\n\nAnd try to explain that to your parents."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How long was the training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible]\n\nIt was. It was. And we were in Puerto Rico. They went directly over and I forgot that part.\n\nYou went to more interim training. The teachers.\n\nThe 42 utilization people, the teachers, went to Puerto Rico to work in the school system for 30 days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a good idea."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:108", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.567833611277605, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it was scary. Yeah, it was nerve wracking, upsetting, for some of us.\n\nBecause you didn't know until the very end, if you were going to go or not, after going after doing all that work.\n\nAnd try to explain that to your parents."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. How long was the training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible]\n\nIt was. It was. And we were in Puerto Rico. They went directly over and I forgot that part.\n\nYou went to more interim training. The teachers.\n\nThe 42 utilization people, the teachers, went to Puerto Rico to work in the school system for 30 days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a good idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Before, and the television men went directly from training to the television studio in Bogota, and they worked always in Bogota. The 42 of us went all over the country. As did the tecnicos, when they weren't falling through the roof. It happens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, so when you got in-country though, did you have translators that were working with you or you were just working with in-country folks and it was all?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:112", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.519815123641783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible]\n\nIt was. It was. And we were in Puerto Rico. They went directly over and I forgot that part.\n\nYou went to more interim training. The teachers.\n\nThe 42 utilization people, the teachers, went to Puerto Rico to work in the school system for 30 days."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's a good idea."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Before, and the television men went directly from training to the television studio in Bogota, and they worked always in Bogota. The 42 of us went all over the country. As did the tecnicos, when they weren't falling through the roof. It happens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, so when you got in-country though, did you have translators that were working with you or you were just working with in-country folks and it was all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we were totally on our own to find our own apartment, buy our furniture and to get settled and then start working. And then we were assigned. We had a project director, Stanley Hamelman. And so we were assigned, the producer directors, were assigned certain programs to work with the Colombian teachers on. So I had second and third grade math, that television series, so I would meet with the instructor, the Colombian math teacher. And of course, you know about the concept of time is, trying to get broadcasts on the air, on time, trying to get teachers' guides published and written and distributed nationwide on time is always quite an experience. Because time meant nothing to them. So in television, time is everything. So there was a cultural, you know, cultural clash there in terms of punctuality, getting things rehearsed on tape. Sometimes the equipment would break down and it didn't work and then we'd have to videotape the next day or some other time. It had its challenges."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure. Coming from a non-production director kind of background, can you tell me a little bit more about what you did specifically? Like what was your? Cause you mentioned doing second and third grade math."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.57757235960198, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Before, and the television men went directly from training to the television studio in Bogota, and they worked always in Bogota. The 42 of us went all over the country. As did the tecnicos, when they weren't falling through the roof. It happens."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, so when you got in-country though, did you have translators that were working with you or you were just working with in-country folks and it was all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, we were totally on our own to find our own apartment, buy our furniture and to get settled and then start working. And then we were assigned. We had a project director, Stanley Hamelman. And so we were assigned, the producer directors, were assigned certain programs to work with the Colombian teachers on. So I had second and third grade math, that television series, so I would meet with the instructor, the Colombian math teacher. And of course, you know about the concept of time is, trying to get broadcasts on the air, on time, trying to get teachers' guides published and written and distributed nationwide on time is always quite an experience. Because time meant nothing to them. So in television, time is everything. So there was a cultural, you know, cultural clash there in terms of punctuality, getting things rehearsed on tape. Sometimes the equipment would break down and it didn't work and then we'd have to videotape the next day or some other time. It had its challenges."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm sure. Coming from a non-production director kind of background, can you tell me a little bit more about what you did specifically? Like what was your? Cause you mentioned doing second and third grade math."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'm thinking like, you know, I'm thinking like TV production, and it is TV, but how did how did that work? How was your project?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 10.653247227071263, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was relatively, the concept of educational television was new. And at that time, they only had one television station and it was government owned. It was a government station. Now it's like here, they have multiple stations for different things. But at that time, there was, um, they weren't using. Someone at AID, I believe, got, someone in the U.S. Government came across this realization that Colombia had this nationwide television system, but they were only using it at night for entertainment. So they would have entertainment type programs from the studios at night, but they weren't using it during the day at all. So someone, I don't know who, came up with the idea, why don't we use it during the day for education and help standardize the basic math and history and science and language and music education throughout the country with these enrichment programs?\n\nSo U.S. AID got involved in providing the television sets, and the Peace Corps got involved in providing the manpower to help produce. But what I failed to mention so far. The primary objective was to train Colombians to take over from us and to do it themselves. So that was really, even though we did all or most of it initially, our primary objective was to make ourselves obsolete. So the Colombians took it over, which they did, and they're still running it today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They're still?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Doing it, the Colombians are still doing it. It's more of a cultural channel now, rather than the instruction, classroom instruction. But the same basic operation is still continuing today. But in color, of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I just think about that because my parents got their first TV the year that I was born, which was in 1970, and we lived in Alaska. And to think about people in Colombia in '65 to '67, who were, you know, that's just amazing to me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was amazing that they had that system for one thing, the nationwide broadcast system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Wow. So, um. Did you return to the United States at all during your two years overseas, for vacation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 9.387170407505163, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Doing it, the Colombians are still doing it. It's more of a cultural channel now, rather than the instruction, classroom instruction. But the same basic operation is still continuing today. But in color, of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I just think about that because my parents got their first TV the year that I was born, which was in 1970, and we lived in Alaska. And to think about people in Colombia in '65 to '67, who were, you know, that's just amazing to me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was amazing that they had that system for one thing, the nationwide broadcast system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Wow. So, um. Did you return to the United States at all during your two years overseas, for vacation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, we weren't allowed to. I mean, that's something else that may be different from the way it is now. Oh no. In fact, the whole, I guess, generational, of the whole mindset during that time, and I'm sure it goes back to the very beginning, but certainly prevalent during the '40s and '50s and '60s was that when you committed to something, you were expected to go through with it. I mean, there's no backing out. I mean, the thought of quitting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, not quitting, but just coming home to see your family?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 9.319078230561292, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was amazing that they had that system for one thing, the nationwide broadcast system."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Wow. So, um. Did you return to the United States at all during your two years overseas, for vacation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, we weren't allowed to. I mean, that's something else that may be different from the way it is now. Oh no. In fact, the whole, I guess, generational, of the whole mindset during that time, and I'm sure it goes back to the very beginning, but certainly prevalent during the '40s and '50s and '60s was that when you committed to something, you were expected to go through with it. I mean, there's no backing out. I mean, the thought of quitting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, not quitting, but just coming home to see your family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no, no.\n\nEven that. None of those things even entered our minds. And not only were they prohibited, we weren't allowed to come back to the States at all. But the whole concept again of cutting our service short, or quitting just because we didn't like it, would never enter our minds. Would never enter our minds.\n\nThose with money went to Miami, so they went and had fun. They never thought of going home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So it was more kind of a personal thing versus like a societal kind of, personal thing versus. Some people it sounds like may have gone on vacation, but um."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:135", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 7.021198033956992, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh no, we weren't allowed to. I mean, that's something else that may be different from the way it is now. Oh no. In fact, the whole, I guess, generational, of the whole mindset during that time, and I'm sure it goes back to the very beginning, but certainly prevalent during the '40s and '50s and '60s was that when you committed to something, you were expected to go through with it. I mean, there's no backing out. I mean, the thought of quitting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, not quitting, but just coming home to see your family?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no, no.\n\nEven that. None of those things even entered our minds. And not only were they prohibited, we weren't allowed to come back to the States at all. But the whole concept again of cutting our service short, or quitting just because we didn't like it, would never enter our minds. Would never enter our minds.\n\nThose with money went to Miami, so they went and had fun. They never thought of going home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So it was more kind of a personal thing versus like a societal kind of, personal thing versus. Some people it sounds like may have gone on vacation, but um."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the. I'm not sure how to answer that. I think, well, first of all, we didn't have much money to travel. Secondly, we only had a certain number of travel days, vacation days. And we were working. It was a job, we were working and we had. But school was in session and we were producing programs, and there's no question that the program had to be. But even during vacation time, the Peace Corps office kept our passports. We couldn't go anywhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's one way to make sure you don't leave the country."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.9948431920878384, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no, no.\n\nEven that. None of those things even entered our minds. And not only were they prohibited, we weren't allowed to come back to the States at all. But the whole concept again of cutting our service short, or quitting just because we didn't like it, would never enter our minds. Would never enter our minds.\n\nThose with money went to Miami, so they went and had fun. They never thought of going home."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So it was more kind of a personal thing versus like a societal kind of, personal thing versus. Some people it sounds like may have gone on vacation, but um."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the. I'm not sure how to answer that. I think, well, first of all, we didn't have much money to travel. Secondly, we only had a certain number of travel days, vacation days. And we were working. It was a job, we were working and we had. But school was in session and we were producing programs, and there's no question that the program had to be. But even during vacation time, the Peace Corps office kept our passports. We couldn't go anywhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's one way to make sure you don't leave the country."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we did sneak out with our Peace Corps ID cards, and we only had certain number of international vacation days, like six or something, to go to. And I went to Venezuela, I went over to Caracas, and that was. And then we snuck out of Colombia on the strength of our Peace Corps ID cards, then to Ecuador, and almost didn't get back in because they stopped us at the border to get back in and held us. They were expecting a bribe, I think, is what they were expecting. But they held us and talked to us, and then I finally, since I was the most proficient in Spanish, finally negotiated our way out of Ecuador and back into Colombia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they didn't have to call the Peace Corps office?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:143", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.108152526869462, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And we did sneak out with our Peace Corps ID cards, and we only had certain number of international vacation days, like six or something, to go to. And I went to Venezuela, I went over to Caracas, and that was. And then we snuck out of Colombia on the strength of our Peace Corps ID cards, then to Ecuador, and almost didn't get back in because they stopped us at the border to get back in and held us. They were expecting a bribe, I think, is what they were expecting. But they held us and talked to us, and then I finally, since I was the most proficient in Spanish, finally negotiated our way out of Ecuador and back into Colombia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they didn't have to call the Peace Corps office?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they didn't have to.\n\nThey couldn't decide what color I was. You had to put your race down.\n\nOh yeah, we got some sort of little.\n\nWe had to get a card.\n\nSome sort of visa.\n\nA travel card.\n\nTo go into Ecuador.\n\nAnd I was very suntanned and I [inaudible]. And they couldn't decide. They were just like, well, who is she? No blanco, no negro. Carmelita! They called me carmelita. That's my pet, my little Ecuadorian travel visa.\n\nWas that to get into Ecuador or coming back? Oh, to get back in. We had to have some Ecuadorian travel card."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they take your picture in the plaza of the whole city. You sit on a crate and somebody holds behind you a gray piece of cloth. And then there's a guy in front of you like this. And that's the picture."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He takes the lens off, the lens cap off and puts it back on, and that's the shutter.\n\nThat's the shutter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How fun, though, wow."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:145", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.564613918743847, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they didn't have to.\n\nThey couldn't decide what color I was. You had to put your race down.\n\nOh yeah, we got some sort of little.\n\nWe had to get a card.\n\nSome sort of visa.\n\nA travel card.\n\nTo go into Ecuador.\n\nAnd I was very suntanned and I [inaudible]. And they couldn't decide. They were just like, well, who is she? No blanco, no negro. Carmelita! They called me carmelita. That's my pet, my little Ecuadorian travel visa.\n\nWas that to get into Ecuador or coming back? Oh, to get back in. We had to have some Ecuadorian travel card."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And they take your picture in the plaza of the whole city. You sit on a crate and somebody holds behind you a gray piece of cloth. And then there's a guy in front of you like this. And that's the picture."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He takes the lens off, the lens cap off and puts it back on, and that's the shutter.\n\nThat's the shutter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How fun, though, wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were able to travel around Colombia, within the country, either on short vacations or we would have conferences periodically in different parts of the country. But our group would have a conference to get together and compare notes. And a lot of parents came down to visit. My parents came down, Bunny's parents came down a couple of times to visit us in country. So that was allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the living conditions that you lived in?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.960682131937608, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He takes the lens off, the lens cap off and puts it back on, and that's the shutter.\n\nThat's the shutter."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How fun, though, wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were able to travel around Colombia, within the country, either on short vacations or we would have conferences periodically in different parts of the country. But our group would have a conference to get together and compare notes. And a lot of parents came down to visit. My parents came down, Bunny's parents came down a couple of times to visit us in country. So that was allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the living conditions that you lived in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a small apartment in Bogota, halfway up the mountains, which we just we visited. It's still there, a year ago we took a trip to Colombia and checked it out. And the neighborhood is very much the same. It was on the third floor and, you know, it was OK. The only thing is that there was no heat generally in Colombia and Bogota, even though your first impression is, oh, it's just pleasantly cool. Eventually, the cold gets into your bones. And so it was that we were cold very much of the time. But I don't even think we had hot water, I don't remember having hot water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have indoor plumbing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:158", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.8937848686403935, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were able to travel around Colombia, within the country, either on short vacations or we would have conferences periodically in different parts of the country. But our group would have a conference to get together and compare notes. And a lot of parents came down to visit. My parents came down, Bunny's parents came down a couple of times to visit us in country. So that was allowed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the living conditions that you lived in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a small apartment in Bogota, halfway up the mountains, which we just we visited. It's still there, a year ago we took a trip to Colombia and checked it out. And the neighborhood is very much the same. It was on the third floor and, you know, it was OK. The only thing is that there was no heat generally in Colombia and Bogota, even though your first impression is, oh, it's just pleasantly cool. Eventually, the cold gets into your bones. And so it was that we were cold very much of the time. But I don't even think we had hot water, I don't remember having hot water."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have indoor plumbing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, we had indoor plumbing. We had a kitchen with a little sink. We must have had hot water, I just don't remember how it was heated. But I know in many places that there's no hot water for showers. A shower only. And the water in Bogota was safe, it was considered safe to drink. So we were fortunate that we didn't have to worry about the water in Bogota. And now basically the whole country has a very safe water supply. I was always sick once, briefly. That was my only health problem. It was food poisoning for a day or two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who cooked your meals and what was a typical meal?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:162", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.23168845259167, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah, we had indoor plumbing. We had a kitchen with a little sink. We must have had hot water, I just don't remember how it was heated. But I know in many places that there's no hot water for showers. A shower only. And the water in Bogota was safe, it was considered safe to drink. So we were fortunate that we didn't have to worry about the water in Bogota. And now basically the whole country has a very safe water supply. I was always sick once, briefly. That was my only health problem. It was food poisoning for a day or two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Who cooked your meals and what was a typical meal?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We cooked. There was no refrigeration, no refrigerators. So we would shop for every meal. You would go out a fair amount, even though that could get expensive. But you would, if you prepared a meal, you'd have to go shop for that meal and prepare and eat it and then go shop again for the next meal. So it was sort of catch as catch can. I don't remember cooking in a whole lot. I know I did some.\n\nRemember we had Rosario and we had Yo.\n\nWe had a cleaning lady.\n\nYeah, cleaning lady. She didn't cook but she would clean the sink, the dishes.\n\nShe'd come in once a week or so to clean. And I think she did our laundry, I'm not sure, because we had no laundry facilities.\n\nRosario did my laundry.\n\nAnd there was like a dry cleaning place. I don't remember. Because it was such a hassle to cook."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far into service did you guys get together as a couple?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, never. Oh, I didn't even know or like him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't start dating in Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:164", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 10.194360017272523, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We cooked. There was no refrigeration, no refrigerators. So we would shop for every meal. You would go out a fair amount, even though that could get expensive. But you would, if you prepared a meal, you'd have to go shop for that meal and prepare and eat it and then go shop again for the next meal. So it was sort of catch as catch can. I don't remember cooking in a whole lot. I know I did some.\n\nRemember we had Rosario and we had Yo.\n\nWe had a cleaning lady.\n\nYeah, cleaning lady. She didn't cook but she would clean the sink, the dishes.\n\nShe'd come in once a week or so to clean. And I think she did our laundry, I'm not sure, because we had no laundry facilities.\n\nRosario did my laundry.\n\nAnd there was like a dry cleaning place. I don't remember. Because it was such a hassle to cook."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How far into service did you guys get together as a couple?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, never. Oh, I didn't even know or like him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't start dating in Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not officially.\n\nWell, I'm sure we were in love but we never said anything.\n\nUh, let me elaborate on that. First of all, we were warned, as you know, some of the other volunteers ignored the warning and the inevitable happened. We were warned by Peace Corps officials about volunteer relationships.\n\nAnd romances.\n\nRomances, and especially marriages. So they said the record on Peace Corps marriages lasting after Peace Corps was very, very poor. So, you know, I wanted to be very careful not to jump into something that, you know, I'd already been warned was not likely to last. But we came back. And then I proposed after we came back home.\n\nAnd I had to say to him, well, do you love me? I mean, the subject had never, ever been broached. And that was 42 years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's so awesome, wow."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:172", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.882622241413912, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, never. Oh, I didn't even know or like him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You didn't start dating in Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, not officially.\n\nWell, I'm sure we were in love but we never said anything.\n\nUh, let me elaborate on that. First of all, we were warned, as you know, some of the other volunteers ignored the warning and the inevitable happened. We were warned by Peace Corps officials about volunteer relationships.\n\nAnd romances.\n\nRomances, and especially marriages. So they said the record on Peace Corps marriages lasting after Peace Corps was very, very poor. So, you know, I wanted to be very careful not to jump into something that, you know, I'd already been warned was not likely to last. But we came back. And then I proposed after we came back home.\n\nAnd I had to say to him, well, do you love me? I mean, the subject had never, ever been broached. And that was 42 years ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's so awesome, wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Something else, many of our, well not many. In our group, there were two other marriages, two or three other marriages. Two did not last. And one is still going. And he is very, they're both very accomplished people, the Dalverers, and he's very active in keeping the group together, they're both Californians.\n\nWe get emails, we have email addresses for a large number of our group. A few have disappeared from, or say cannot be found.\n\nYou know, it's still the kind of thing where you could call any one of them at any time. You know, and say, look my child or my grandchild is in trouble in your city. Could you go over and just check on them. We've done that a couple of times. Steve Shepherd's son Jesse, helped them out. And it's that kind of thing with the camaraderie that you develop in the Marine Corps or the Jesuits or something like that, you know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Bonding over a common experience."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:189", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 3.967285260293159, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know. We just, as young children, we started piano lessons when we were seven and we just always kind of, we must have just been born with that interest in music and listening to piano and organ specifically. And even before I could study an instrument, I would stack up, I would pull out a set of encyclopedias and set them up and pretend I was playing the piano.\n\nIt was a small town in Texas and it was hard to find, you know, outstanding teachers. This is an esoteric type pursuit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the name of the community that you're from in Texas?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seagoville. It's a small town in Dallas County."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Great. Well, obviously, you know, the three goals of Peace Corps. We always encourage returned volunteers to kind of evaluate their service in light of the three goals of Peace Corps. And obviously we just talked a moment ago about providing the technical assistance that was requested by the Colombian government. How do you feel in light of your service about promoting better understanding of the United States?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in terms of whether we were successful or not in that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just how you personally feel like your experiences in Colombia, you know, may have led to a better understanding of Americans."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:194", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 8.482162990762898, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in terms of whether we were successful or not in that?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just how you personally feel like your experiences in Colombia, you know, may have led to a better understanding of Americans."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think first of all, the Colombians had a very positive predisposition to Americans anyhow. They might not have always. I mean, they kept, they would remind us that we took Panama away from them regularly. But generally, they're very gracious people and they love Americans and they like the United States. They're still one of our closest allies in Latin America. Um, whether I was able to contribute to that, I don't know. I don't know. I would hope so. Because of my example and my working and giving of my time to help out.\n\nThey loved him. They had never seen anybody so tall, so blonde, with such blue eyes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Several of us were tall and we lived in the same neighborhood and the neighborhood kids especially would call us gigantes. Giants.\n\nBill was very, very well revered, especially for his leadership and his abilities in working with these maestras, these Colombian women, that were teachers and did not have any education themselves and were very anxious to learn, you know? So I think the men in the group made very, because they were gentlemen, quiet gentlemen, and nothing changed. And there was no big macho feeling in Peace Corps volunteer men, and that was very interesting, I think, you know, on the women, especially, you could see. And then the men in the studio who could see that you could get an enormous job done, you know, without, um.\n\nGiving orders.\n\nWithout shouting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were most of the teachers women or were some of them men?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:196", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.029030165655554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think first of all, the Colombians had a very positive predisposition to Americans anyhow. They might not have always. I mean, they kept, they would remind us that we took Panama away from them regularly. But generally, they're very gracious people and they love Americans and they like the United States. They're still one of our closest allies in Latin America. Um, whether I was able to contribute to that, I don't know. I don't know. I would hope so. Because of my example and my working and giving of my time to help out.\n\nThey loved him. They had never seen anybody so tall, so blonde, with such blue eyes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I bet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Several of us were tall and we lived in the same neighborhood and the neighborhood kids especially would call us gigantes. Giants.\n\nBill was very, very well revered, especially for his leadership and his abilities in working with these maestras, these Colombian women, that were teachers and did not have any education themselves and were very anxious to learn, you know? So I think the men in the group made very, because they were gentlemen, quiet gentlemen, and nothing changed. And there was no big macho feeling in Peace Corps volunteer men, and that was very interesting, I think, you know, on the women, especially, you could see. And then the men in the studio who could see that you could get an enormous job done, you know, without, um.\n\nGiving orders.\n\nWithout shouting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were most of the teachers women or were some of them men?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One. There was one man, at least one. But did he teach history?\n\nI don't know, but he was from a wealthy family, like the Amarals.\n\nAmador.\n\nAmador. Oh, forgive me.\n\nThe music teacher was.\n\nYeah. Amalia Santera."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you mentioned going back to Colombia, was it last year? What has been your path back to your host country since you left service? Have you had communication or?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:199", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 10.304877557774047, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Several of us were tall and we lived in the same neighborhood and the neighborhood kids especially would call us gigantes. Giants.\n\nBill was very, very well revered, especially for his leadership and his abilities in working with these maestras, these Colombian women, that were teachers and did not have any education themselves and were very anxious to learn, you know? So I think the men in the group made very, because they were gentlemen, quiet gentlemen, and nothing changed. And there was no big macho feeling in Peace Corps volunteer men, and that was very interesting, I think, you know, on the women, especially, you could see. And then the men in the studio who could see that you could get an enormous job done, you know, without, um.\n\nGiving orders.\n\nWithout shouting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were most of the teachers women or were some of them men?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "One. There was one man, at least one. But did he teach history?\n\nI don't know, but he was from a wealthy family, like the Amarals.\n\nAmador.\n\nAmador. Oh, forgive me.\n\nThe music teacher was.\n\nYeah. Amalia Santera."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you mentioned going back to Colombia, was it last year? What has been your path back to your host country since you left service? Have you had communication or?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. A lot of, some volunteers, in fact a very dear friend of mine who was in a different group, has stayed in touch with a lot of people down there. And I just, I didn't stay in touch with other Colombians or Colombians after I came back. I just got busy with other things. And of course, I was always interested in what was happening in Colombia. And I just, I read news stories, but I didn't. Other than joining the Peace Corps Friends of Colombia organization, of RPCVs. We stayed in touch with Peace Corps people.\n\nYes, they're our dearest friends.\n\nBut I never really stayed in touch with Colombians."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So talk a little bit about your trip back. It sounds like."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:233", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.071618021990213, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It's a control system. Very simple push button controller. You know, at home you have your handheld wireless remote for, say for your TV set. So imagine in a classroom or school system that's maybe hundreds if not thousands of classrooms and each one has this little handheld remote. They get lost, they get stolen. The batteries go dead. The handheld wireless remote is a disaster. We have developed a light switch looking thing that goes on the wall. So the teacher comes in the room and instead of fumbling around with a handheld remote, they just push a button to turn the video projector on or play a VCR or DVD. So it's a, it helps automate and helps make the use of this multimedia classroom easier to use. But it's not going to get lost. It's not going to die.\n\nIt's not sitting on a chair.\n\nOr punch it with a ruler, that's what they did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's hilarious."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So it's, again related to media, audiovisual communications, and education."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what kind of long-term effects do you feel like your services had on you as a person and personally, you know, going overseas? And you know, how do you feel that you are different from becoming a Peace Corps volunteer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I have a different perspective on foreign countries, for one thing, and what they're facing and some of the difficulties there. But also a different perspective on our own country and somewhat of a new, um, what's the right word? Caution or. Not cynical, but more of a cautious view of our press. Because one example we had in Colombia when we were there, Time magazine. There was a couple of thieves stopped a bus and robbed everybody and I think shot a couple of people. Well, these were just common highway robbers who had no political leanings of any kind, one way or the other. And the Time magazine article wrote them up as communist guerrillas. But they were just thugs, you know? So it made me wonder what else is our press doing to reinterpret what the facts were? So it made me very suspicious, I guess is the word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Critical thinker, actually."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:239", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 5.490729536481001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think I have a different perspective on foreign countries, for one thing, and what they're facing and some of the difficulties there. But also a different perspective on our own country and somewhat of a new, um, what's the right word? Caution or. Not cynical, but more of a cautious view of our press. Because one example we had in Colombia when we were there, Time magazine. There was a couple of thieves stopped a bus and robbed everybody and I think shot a couple of people. Well, these were just common highway robbers who had no political leanings of any kind, one way or the other. And the Time magazine article wrote them up as communist guerrillas. But they were just thugs, you know? So it made me wonder what else is our press doing to reinterpret what the facts were? So it made me very suspicious, I guess is the word."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Critical thinker, actually."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What information was there and who's behind it and what is their motive?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So going to this day [inaudible] and reading between the lines and watching a variety of opinions too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well that sounds very intelligent to me. Definitely. Well, is there anything that we didn't cover in the interview or any other details? Or anything else that you'd like to share?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:241", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 6.1008105960900005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What information was there and who's behind it and what is their motive?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So going to this day [inaudible] and reading between the lines and watching a variety of opinions too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well that sounds very intelligent to me. Definitely. Well, is there anything that we didn't cover in the interview or any other details? Or anything else that you'd like to share?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only thing and the only negative, I guess, would be that I never really adjusted, because of my personality and my type and my background and my work and my desire to get things done on time. I never really adjusted to the way that, a Latin American concept of time. That just really started to get on my nerves. To make an appointment with somebody then you show up and they're not even there. But you sit in their outer office for an hour before you can get in to see them. It's just, I never really adjusted to that.\n\nThat hasn't changed. When we were there last year, you were very good about it. Remember we made plans and we waited and we waited.\n\nOh, at the library. All I wanted to do was go back and to see the organ that I had played concerts on at the Biblioteca Luis Ángel Arango concert hall. I just wanted to go in and play it for a few minutes. I thought this was a very reasonable, non-threatening request. Well, I got the runaround. I never did get in the studio because the person that had to get that permission wasn't there. She was out of town. And at one point, didn't we go there and I thought she was in her office?\n\nOh sure.\n\nThe secretary.\n\nThey had us wait for a couple of hours. And she was out of town!\n\nShe wasn't even there. The secretary had us waiting.\n\nFor this person was never coming."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she knew this?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:243", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 3.43046721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So going to this day [inaudible] and reading between the lines and watching a variety of opinions too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Well that sounds very intelligent to me. Definitely. Well, is there anything that we didn't cover in the interview or any other details? Or anything else that you'd like to share?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The only thing and the only negative, I guess, would be that I never really adjusted, because of my personality and my type and my background and my work and my desire to get things done on time. I never really adjusted to the way that, a Latin American concept of time. That just really started to get on my nerves. To make an appointment with somebody then you show up and they're not even there. But you sit in their outer office for an hour before you can get in to see them. It's just, I never really adjusted to that.\n\nThat hasn't changed. When we were there last year, you were very good about it. Remember we made plans and we waited and we waited.\n\nOh, at the library. All I wanted to do was go back and to see the organ that I had played concerts on at the Biblioteca Luis Ángel Arango concert hall. I just wanted to go in and play it for a few minutes. I thought this was a very reasonable, non-threatening request. Well, I got the runaround. I never did get in the studio because the person that had to get that permission wasn't there. She was out of town. And at one point, didn't we go there and I thought she was in her office?\n\nOh sure.\n\nThe secretary.\n\nThey had us wait for a couple of hours. And she was out of town!\n\nShe wasn't even there. The secretary had us waiting.\n\nFor this person was never coming."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And she knew this?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was her boss. Her boss wasn't even there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But they're so polite, they won't say no. You know, they wait for you to give up.\n\nThat's totally frustrating."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:260", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You scanned it and sent it.\n\nWell, I sent my pictures of me sitting at the console.\n\nThey'd probably deny it.\n\nI scanned it all in, newspaper articles, programs, everything, and sent all of us to her as evidence that I was very involved in that. And she never replied.\n\nSo that's a dead horse. If we go back down there, he'll try again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Wow."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We got more out of that than we gave.\n\nYeah, I would think most Peace Corps volunteers say that, I benefited more than I was able to contribute. Anything else?\n\nOurs was a very, very interesting project. We were the second group down there or something like that. We were the third group, we were ETV, educational television and radio. The third group down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I'm looking forward to interviewing Bernadette, or Bunny, Thompson soon, and we can get her account of her experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she'll tell you the real scoop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "According to Bunny, right?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00238:266", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We got more out of that than we gave.\n\nYeah, I would think most Peace Corps volunteers say that, I benefited more than I was able to contribute. Anything else?\n\nOurs was a very, very interesting project. We were the second group down there or something like that. We were the third group, we were ETV, educational television and radio. The third group down."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I'm looking forward to interviewing Bernadette, or Bunny, Thompson soon, and we can get her account of her experience."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she'll tell you the real scoop."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "According to Bunny, right?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'll tell you what really happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you so much for your interview."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00965:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 27.036821, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A high school guidance counselor opened up this whole world."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Then John Sanders, also."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Sanders, yes, and then George Carrier. George Carrier showed me what world-class is. A completely different style from me—he was brilliant and quick, and I developed a scaling technique, a formal, mathematical way of deciding what’s important in a problem. George was incredulous when he saw it and I told him, “George, I did it in defense of you. You look at a problem and say, ‘Oh, this is important.’” I found out that he is wrong 30 percent of the time, but he’s so brilliant and a Harvard professor with two chairs, who’s going to challenge him? I developed my own style. I’m much more cautious. Two people in your life just opened up a world to you, and in every way. I mean, intellectually, socially, and monetarily."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In your research, what I find interesting is some of the research that you and other people were doing here—then you find out how important it is, when these people that you respect come back and tell you how much they admire what you’ve done. That’s amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it’s mind-boggling. So many things that I had an opportunity to investigate here, and you had support. If you needed computational [support], I had great computational [support]. If you needed diagrams made—when I was at the university, I’d make up my own PowerPoint [presentation slides]. Over here, they [did it for me]. After you did a report, they had English people review it.\\n\\n You just had to be smart. You just had to do your work at your level. That’s what I loved. When I set up my center, I didn’t want anybody doing work that could be done easily by someone else. That would free you up. That’s why so many creative things came out of this place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned the support, and you mentioned your technicians, when you were doing the supersonic tunnel, and creating it in wood. I would imagine in some of the experiments, that you worked with photographers that were documenting everything."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00965:30", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What a life changer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who could have ever dreamed, this little guy from Providence, Rhode Island, out on his own? No entitlement programs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just small decisions and chance meetings."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the crossroads. You work your butt off, and it’s an incredible story. I’m writing vignettes of my life for my children. I got bogged down somewhere in the 60’s.\\n\\n I got another giant that I met, Hans [W.] Liepmann. I studied from his books, and he was a great admirer of George Carrier, and so he accepted me from day one. When I became Home Secretary of the Academy, he used to call me all the time because he was always complaining. We got to be great friends. Last time I was at Caltech we had lunch, and he sat here [demonstrates]. One of his students, who was a professor at Caltech, just retired, sat here. On his left was a student of him, Mory [Morteza] Gharib, who is now the provost at Caltech. To his left was one of his graduate students, who was Liepmann’s son.\\n\\n Liepmann told me that he was doing vignettes of his life, and what a life he led. When we get off the mic [microphone], I can tell you some stories about him. Here was this fearsome, brilliant guy known all over the world, and he couldn’t do mathematics. He kept flunking mathematics. Very interesting stories would come out. Here is a guy whose books I studied from, who became a close personal friend."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What an opportunity."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00965:36", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ve been grieving [over my wife’s death]. People tell me that I should think back on the life I led, and man, it was great. When I was the center director [of the National Center for Microgravity Research] here, I would come and spend time here, and I got called one day by one of Abe’s close friends, saying, “Abe is pretty lonely.” Abe is lonely? He had 15,000 people. They thought for a while that Abe had Alzheimer’s [disease], but evidently he was overmedicated. I went over to see Abe, and he was in a wheelchair and it was troublesome to get to lunch.\\n\\n Now I find myself in the same situation. I have this life of being known all over the world, roaming all over the world, and now there are weeks that I don’t talk to anybody but my little kitty. I have a different one of my children call me every night, but that’s the extent of it. You run around, you don’t think about that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Somehow I think that in about 5 or 10 years, we’ll be reading more of the stuff that you’ve done in the next 10 years, so I don’t think you’re through yet."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m 90 years old. People tell me I look good, and I say, “Smoking, drinking, and being overweight’s the answer.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s the answer, right? That’s how to keep healthy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "How can germs get in with alcohol and tobacco?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Maybe that’s the secret."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 28.071140381396788, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you share with us what else was going on board and what you did during that time period?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, every once in a while, of course, we would take a sighting on a telescope, make sure we were about in the right place and they were still there. We kept getting reports from the ground, of course, during that, that their checkout and the Space Telescope Science Institute, their communication with the telescope was going fine, and the system seemed to be coming up normally on board the telescope. They weren’t, of course, doing anything with it. There was an outgassing period and all this sort of thing that it had to go through before they would even attempt to open the door and look at anything with it.\\n\\n We, in the meantime, we were watching it, and then we had a few other experiments and things on board that we were working with and trying to make sure we did all the data takes and stuff. So it was just a period where we could follow along and look at it.\\n\\n I think originally there may have been some idea that if things hadn’t been working out, that they could have gone back and gotten it, but they gave up on that concept fairly early on. So I’m not exactly sure why we stuck around for two days, because we weren’t going to go back and get it if it wasn’t working correctly. They may have had us come back in and take a look at something just visually and take pictures to document, but that would have been about all we could do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Orbiter’s approach to Edwards upon reentry was met with high winds, and you had to change your location from the lakebed to the runway."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Plus, you were testing—I use that word very carefully—a new brake system on\\n\\n Discovery\\n\\n . Tell us about the landing. Of course, you were commander, and so you were in charge of all of that. So tell us about that experience."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.358296419834954, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t feel like we were in danger. I felt like we were seeing all the things that we weren’t supposed to see. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Living those simulations."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hopefully wouldn’t have to experience. But, on the other hand, I think every one of those was probably some form of lesson learned to pass on to anybody who might be doing it after that. I don’t think there was ever any time that we were close to cutting the satellite loose because it posed a threat back to the Shuttle. It never got to that point at all. It did some interesting things, and its attitude varied a lot, and the tether would slack and all that sort of thing, but we were never—it really was stable after we got it out a certain amount."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not only did you have an international crew, you had a full crew. You had seven members aboard, which was more than you had on your other two missions. How was that different for you with so many people on board?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a little more crowded on the flight deck, of course, during the busy periods. But once again, everybody had a specific function for being up there, whether it was doing Shuttle-related stuff, or flying the Shuttle, as I was doing, or operating CRTs [cathode-ray tubes], or operating the systems of the satellite itself. Everybody had a specific purpose, and it worked out fine. In zero-G, you tend not to notice the congestion as much just because you can occupy more of the space than you can on the ground."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you returned to land the Orbiter, you had a payload with you. Were you concerned at all how this was going to affect your landing?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.62032935537217, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hopefully wouldn’t have to experience. But, on the other hand, I think every one of those was probably some form of lesson learned to pass on to anybody who might be doing it after that. I don’t think there was ever any time that we were close to cutting the satellite loose because it posed a threat back to the Shuttle. It never got to that point at all. It did some interesting things, and its attitude varied a lot, and the tether would slack and all that sort of thing, but we were never—it really was stable after we got it out a certain amount."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not only did you have an international crew, you had a full crew. You had seven members aboard, which was more than you had on your other two missions. How was that different for you with so many people on board?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a little more crowded on the flight deck, of course, during the busy periods. But once again, everybody had a specific function for being up there, whether it was doing Shuttle-related stuff, or flying the Shuttle, as I was doing, or operating CRTs [cathode-ray tubes], or operating the systems of the satellite itself. Everybody had a specific purpose, and it worked out fine. In zero-G, you tend not to notice the congestion as much just because you can occupy more of the space than you can on the ground."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you returned to land the Orbiter, you had a payload with you. Were you concerned at all how this was going to affect your landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we knew the training, all of the weight and C.G.s [center of gravity] always did have the tethered satellite there. That would have been the normal mode anyway. So I wasn’t too worried about—as a matter of fact, what we came back with was pretty nominal, as it should have been. So I wasn’t worried."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the landing or operating of the Orbiter\\n\\n Atlantis\\n\\n any different from what you had done with\\n\\n Discovery\\n\\n ?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 25.133699283746857, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it was a little more crowded on the flight deck, of course, during the busy periods. But once again, everybody had a specific function for being up there, whether it was doing Shuttle-related stuff, or flying the Shuttle, as I was doing, or operating CRTs [cathode-ray tubes], or operating the systems of the satellite itself. Everybody had a specific purpose, and it worked out fine. In zero-G, you tend not to notice the congestion as much just because you can occupy more of the space than you can on the ground."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you returned to land the Orbiter, you had a payload with you. Were you concerned at all how this was going to affect your landing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we knew the training, all of the weight and C.G.s [center of gravity] always did have the tethered satellite there. That would have been the normal mode anyway. So I wasn’t too worried about—as a matter of fact, what we came back with was pretty nominal, as it should have been. So I wasn’t worried."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was the landing or operating of the Orbiter\\n\\n Atlantis\\n\\n any different from what you had done with\\n\\n Discovery\\n\\n ?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I didn’t notice any differences at all. All the vehicles, I think in terms of flying qualities and handling, are very similar to each other. None of my three flights had the drag chute on board. As a matter of fact, I think [STS] 46 may have been the last flight without a drag chute, and then after that we’ve been flying drag chutes. So everything is pretty nominal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two months after returning from this mission, you were appointed the Deputy Chief for the Astronaut Office. Did you have any idea when you were on flight that that would be your last mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.11668154201909, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Turns out it was a very logical progression of a career path for somebody who had my background, and created for me even a more unique background than most people in our business have. While a lot of people are in space ops or human space ops for a long time, not very many have experience both in Houston in our environment and at Kennedy and their environment, and in the Astronaut Office and the mission and the ground. It’s fairly unique. When I went into that job, there were only, I guess, three other people in the world that had ever done the same combination of things in that sort of sequence. So it was a unique experience."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find your new position allowing you more time with your family, as you had hoped, or did you find responsibilities very busy, very time-consuming?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it did. Evenings were, of course, a little more predictable, less travel on weekends. The hours were late enough, but at least the weekends, and a lot of that was a lot more predictable. Eventually I wasn’t flying T-38s anymore either, so that probably even made it more so.\\n\\n There was still quite a bit of travel involved, mostly back here to Houston and to Washington [D. C.] for other official program stuff back here during the missions or the mission phase. But, in general, it steadies things out quite a bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Another change you went through about that same time period is that you retired from the Air Force after thirty years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been a—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.2407572689101, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it did. Evenings were, of course, a little more predictable, less travel on weekends. The hours were late enough, but at least the weekends, and a lot of that was a lot more predictable. Eventually I wasn’t flying T-38s anymore either, so that probably even made it more so.\\n\\n There was still quite a bit of travel involved, mostly back here to Houston and to Washington [D. C.] for other official program stuff back here during the missions or the mission phase. But, in general, it steadies things out quite a bit."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Another change you went through about that same time period is that you retired from the Air Force after thirty years."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been a—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was simultaneous with the move to Florida, becoming part of the Space Shuttle program. They and I both thought it would be more appropriate. Since I was at probably a logical place to retire from the Air Force anyway, I went ahead and did that and went into the civil service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, another new change for you."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.600841409900113, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That must have been a—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was simultaneous with the move to Florida, becoming part of the Space Shuttle program. They and I both thought it would be more appropriate. Since I was at probably a logical place to retire from the Air Force anyway, I went ahead and did that and went into the civil service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, another new change for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A new change, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were very much involved and very responsible in being in the position of making some tough decisions during that role, that role as well as when you became the deputy director for launch and payloads processing. Can you share some of those situations that you had to face and how you were able to do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 25.112046011000125, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was simultaneous with the move to Florida, becoming part of the Space Shuttle program. They and I both thought it would be more appropriate. Since I was at probably a logical place to retire from the Air Force anyway, I went ahead and did that and went into the civil service."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So, another new change for you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A new change, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were very much involved and very responsible in being in the position of making some tough decisions during that role, that role as well as when you became the deputy director for launch and payloads processing. Can you share some of those situations that you had to face and how you were able to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as the Manager of Launch Integration, as I mentioned, you’re intimately involved in the entire process leading up to launch. So it’s very logical for the Shuttle Program, the NASA government side, to have that person, the Manager of Launch Integration, be the Chairman of the Mission Management Team as you progress past the flight readiness review, which is, again, that person’s responsibility to get the process to the point of being ready to have a flight readiness review. And then it’s kind of you who is presenting the flight readiness review to sort of the senior board people within human space flight.\\n\\n Then, you know, you’re basically conducting everything afterwards, including—the mission management team is made up of the senior contractor and government people in each of the elements that have anything to do with the mission, and so being chairman at that point in time, it’s part of your responsibility to make sure that any management issues or any out-of-family technical issues have been appropriately dealt with and that the Shuttle really is ready to go fly. And you have the authority to give the final go-for-launch for each mission. That’s basically your job. Yes, it can be significant. A huge number of factors all have to come together, including the weather, which you have absolutely no control over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there some times that you can remember that stand out that you had some decisions that you made that you wish maybe you weren’t responsible for?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 9.75849, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think the contractor always—there’s always a customer relationship with NASA, so the NASA decision makers are pretty much the final authority on all of the requirements and satisfying the requirements. So you probably don’t have as much authority in that respect; but, of course, within the company there’s still quite a bit of authority to go around. So I’m not too worried about that.\\n\\n Again, you alluded to it before in one of your questions. This is a teamwork kind of business. The more people you have thinking about the proper way to do things, the best ways to do things, the new ideas that can make things better, I think the better off you are, and that’s one of the functions that we have as a contractor for NASA."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you had to make some adjustment of knowing that you’re on the other side now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, certainly. I think it’s very easy for me to do. To go back to the beginning of this interview, to the days when I was a Midwest farm boy, and you don’t get too pushy coming along in that kind of a beginning. And I think I’m diplomatic enough to know when it’s right to push a little and when it’s right to not push."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, you certainly have had a very interesting and challenging career, and we wanted to ask you, is there a time or a point in your life when you feel like you can name as the most significant accomplishment?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wow. There’s been what I consider to be quite a few of them. There are some key turning points, definitely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, let’s talk about those."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00528:106", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 1.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure whether the job changed or whether I changed within the job. Maybe a little of both.\\n\\n Early in the human space flight program, of course, astronauts were unique individuals. Part of their charisma or their charm or whatever was the fact that each one of them was a hugely successful individual, and it was focused on that way because that’s the way they started off flying, as individuals, one person in a spacecraft, and then eventually it was two, and then eventually it was three. In the Shuttle it was a lot more.\\n\\n So I think one of the evolutions that we saw or experienced some was the evolution from individuals doing fantastic things, to total teamwork. And today, if you don’t have the team and the good of the crew and the team uppermost in your mind, in my opinion, you don’t need to apply to be an astronaut, because we don’t need the highly individualistic person anymore. We need people who can get along with other Americans and other nationalities for long periods of time on orbit in a confined space. And that is an evolution in the role of an astronaut, I think, from the early beginnings of human space flight to what we have now. Pretty significant change."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you think that it’s changed at all during the Space Shuttle Program from your own experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I think in the early days of the Shuttle Program there was still some of the—“We’ve got small crews, and let’s get on about the business,” and I think that evolved in just part of a string of evolution, but it happened during the Shuttle Program, and especially when the Station started to come along, and especially then when international partners started to fly with us, even more important."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you. That was all of my questions.\n\nIs there anything else that you would like to talk about or share with us?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gosh, I think we’ve hit everything. We went through pretty much all the missions and all the phases and all the jobs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And some of the challenges. I’m sure there are so many."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00567:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 113, "return_to_go": 166.880197209934, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was like a lot of the people that were in that situation at that time. We were all in our mid-thirties, had young children, spent a lot of time at Langley Research Center. Our entire careers had been there up to then. So you naturally are not anxious to move, but I think I understood once I joined the Space Task Group that the possibility of a move was there. So when the move came about, you know, I accepted it as just part of the job and moved the family here. We were very pleased, after it was all over with, with the move. But it’s probably not something you would seek out. It’s just something that you get caught up in the flow of events. It certainly made sense to me that, particularly with the lunar landing function now assigned to the Space Task Group, that we could not longer live as a first cousin at the Langley Research Center. We had to move off and take on an identity of our own.\\n\\n Not that we didn’t have an identity of our own there. The Langley Research Center was very supportive of the Space Task Group, but facilities, people, it’s hard to mix those two functions, and for the Space Task Group to grow and take on the responsibilities that they had, it had to move and go somewhere else. Of the places that were discussed to move, it boiled down mainly to a kind of debate to going to Florida or coming to Texas. I guess the politicians at the time were stronger from the Texas vantage point, so here we are in Texas forty years later, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At the Johnson Space Center."}, {"role": "user", "content": "At the Johnson Space Center."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Gives you some indication, I guess, of the politics."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of the politics of the time. That’s correct."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Some of the other functions going on here weren’t just the lunar landing, but they came up with this idea of Apollo Applications [Program, AAP], which you became involved with. Tell me how you made the move here from Headquarters, I guess, into AAP."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00324:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 59.238507000000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I sure did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that typical that people who are responsible for the function of that building to control the layout?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it isn’t. It’s an example of how the space task group works because normally you’d have a complete engineering department and architects onboard. And top management who is asking congress for money for something. They would handle a complete preparation of the building by themselves within an independent department. But in this instance, I just drew sketches of what I needed. We were a quick reaction group. And with my sketches, they bought them. They didn’t try to build a building with sketches. But I was able to determine myself on a one-on-one basis that we had to have a certain size floor space. I knew what kind of equipment we wanted to buy. I made up the list and turned them in and got approval to purchase equipment.\\n\\n And then I also had an opportunity to go hit the country and go to all of the government facilities and start recruiting people. I wound up recruiting over a hundred people to work in technical services division as part of my option. You must know this, without any further information from Bob Gilruth, I had no body directing me as to what I should do. This is self initiated. I initiated all of that as one person And the help I got, of course, I’d go over to the engineering department guys and say, “Hey, this is what we need.” And they would pick it up and work with it. But I didn’t have any chain of command. I reported to Bob Gilruth as his technical services assistant. And then they named me Chief of Technical Services division as we created the division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now you said that you recruited these people from the government?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They were all civil servants?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00098:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 46.88590673787282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, but it’s mandatory. I have to agree with that, that here, and I think it’s the U.S. way and probably in the military, too, to be very strict in what you ask people to do if you want them to get that label. If you want to get that label and title of mission specialist or pilot, you need to do all of it. But that was a pleasure, a nice opportunity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, what did that training consist of in general? What were some of your impressions of the training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a long training. In fact, it’s not the training; it’s qualification, like in commercial aviation when you go to get qualified on a new airplane. Here you want to qualify people for the Space Shuttle flights. So it’s mostly classes, but all the systems are special. It’s a special 85 percent. And also simulators, they have simple simulators in which you go—I think it was like three, four times a week in those specific sims, those sims where you had the specific training on what you had learned the week before, just to practice on the systems. So it can be the computers. It can be the engines. It can be electrical power, hydraulic, whatever. So you spend a couple of hours with an instructor, and most of the time with a second guy. There are two astronaut candidates and an instructor, and you go through the checklist and a malfunction checklist and learn how the systems work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you learn that you were assigned to STS-86?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, like, eleven months, ten, eleven months. I think that was November in [19]96, yes, one year before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that point was the full crew assigned, which included Mr. [Vladimir G.] Titov from Russia and—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00098:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 52.0954519309698, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s a long training. In fact, it’s not the training; it’s qualification, like in commercial aviation when you go to get qualified on a new airplane. Here you want to qualify people for the Space Shuttle flights. So it’s mostly classes, but all the systems are special. It’s a special 85 percent. And also simulators, they have simple simulators in which you go—I think it was like three, four times a week in those specific sims, those sims where you had the specific training on what you had learned the week before, just to practice on the systems. So it can be the computers. It can be the engines. It can be electrical power, hydraulic, whatever. So you spend a couple of hours with an instructor, and most of the time with a second guy. There are two astronaut candidates and an instructor, and you go through the checklist and a malfunction checklist and learn how the systems work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When did you learn that you were assigned to STS-86?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think, like, eleven months, ten, eleven months. I think that was November in [19]96, yes, one year before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And at that point was the full crew assigned, which included Mr. [Vladimir G.] Titov from Russia and—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. We were all, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what did your specific training consist of, once you began training for that specific mission? How did that—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00098:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 24.1398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, no. Right, it never happened. I mean, they did a lot of these flights, and it never happened. Maybe their system is so safe that they can do it. I don’t know. I’ve never been flying before in an airplane that was 75 percent of his engines in reverse and fly it and go a hundred feet over buildings thinking that they will go back to normal, 100 percent, no doubt. But in aviation, but, again— [Tape recorder turned off.]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As we finished the last time, the first time that we were talking, you mentioned a story after where we had turned off the tape, that I was hoping that you would recount for us, and that was on your first mission with the Russians when you were docking, that there was a computer failure, and I was wondering if you could describe that event for us."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, just because it did not print?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the failure, the computer failure. What happened?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, what happened there, if you could tell us about what happened and how you were able to correct the problem and—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00098:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 18, "return_to_go": 18.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the biggest challenge was to keep going twenty-two years, keep going and get ready for those three flights. Normally I should have had four, but only three.\\n\\n And maybe the biggest—what?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Accomplishment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "—Accomplishment is to have been starting on this Russian stuff, Soviet stuff, go through all of that, also with the Buran stuff, and finish as a U.S NASA astronaut, a strange road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s certainly a very unique one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A funny one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, we appreciate you sharing all of these experiences with us."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 28.22859480304136, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "OK. Ifyou have any questions for me, just interrupt, and I'll answer them as best I can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK. Try to forget that you're being taped, but it's difficult to do. The first question is, how did your graduate study lead to your work at the National Archives?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Actually, it was probably more of a personal connection than academic. I went to graduate school with a friend and colleague at Florida State University who subsequently began to work at the National Archives before I did, in the Agricultural Branch. And I was staying with him as I was doing dissertation research. And I would do my research in the research room, and ofcourse he would be at his job. One afternoon we were together, obviously, as I was staying at his place, and he said that there was a fellowship opening at the National Historic Publications Commission, which is now the National Historic Publications and Records Commission, and that maybe I'd better consider applying for it, but I'd better apply for it quick, because there was only about a week before it closed. So I did, and actually I was selected to work as an NHPC Fellow with the papers of Jefferson Davis at Rice University in Houston. And so that's how I really got connected with the National Archives; although I had done research there, I had not initially considered working here, because in those days the academic emphasis was on teaching, to get your doctoral degree, and then to go into teaching at the college or university level."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was this fellowship a limited-term fellowship?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a one-year fellowship. I worked at Rice University on the Jeff Davis papers for a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright. What brought you up here?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.331598522273282, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a one-year fellowship. I worked at Rice University on the Jeff Davis papers for a year."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Alright. What brought you up here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm from this area. I was born and raised here. When the Davis project ended-­ it was not renewable--! just came back to visit friends and visit family and see what I could find in terms of employment. As it turned out, the Davis project needed a researcher here, so I had a joint appointment between the Jefferson Davis papers here as their researcher in Washington and also with the Ulysses S. Grant papers, which was based in Carbondale, Illinois, at Southern Illinois University. So I in fact worked for the two opposing sides in the Civil War at the same time that I was looking for a job. And subsequent to that I worked with the Woodrow Wilson papers, so I consider myself to be like the man on the flying trapeze, where you get to the extension and then you grab on to the next ring. Then when I applied at the Archives, and at that particular point it wasn't in terms ofa particular job, then in 1977 I got an interview with the General Archives Division, with Dan Goggin [?], who was the director at that time, and he hired me. And so I began working in August of 1977 at Suitland in the General Archives Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been looking for an academic job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not actively at the time, because I had not finished my dissertation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that took precedence over anything else ..."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.923998358081423, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm from this area. I was born and raised here. When the Davis project ended-­ it was not renewable--! just came back to visit friends and visit family and see what I could find in terms of employment. As it turned out, the Davis project needed a researcher here, so I had a joint appointment between the Jefferson Davis papers here as their researcher in Washington and also with the Ulysses S. Grant papers, which was based in Carbondale, Illinois, at Southern Illinois University. So I in fact worked for the two opposing sides in the Civil War at the same time that I was looking for a job. And subsequent to that I worked with the Woodrow Wilson papers, so I consider myself to be like the man on the flying trapeze, where you get to the extension and then you grab on to the next ring. Then when I applied at the Archives, and at that particular point it wasn't in terms ofa particular job, then in 1977 I got an interview with the General Archives Division, with Dan Goggin [?], who was the director at that time, and he hired me. And so I began working in August of 1977 at Suitland in the General Archives Division."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had you been looking for an academic job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not actively at the time, because I had not finished my dissertation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So that took precedence over anything else ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. I was trying to finish that up. I got my degree, actually, in 1976; I had worked on it while I was at Rice. But the Ph.D. was then assumed to be, at least where I was working, to be a precursor to going out and looking for a job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The second part ofthese background and early career questions have to do with your Army experience. I know you were in the Army for a while, and a lot ofthe records that we deal with here at the National Archives.are military records; did any of your Army experience contribute to your later career at the National Archives?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.05916841619913, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right. They did, but we still got transfers; I don't want to say that we got nothing, but it has raised the agencies', and in particular the agency records officers' sensitivity to the fact that these things happen every year now."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the driving force behind implementing that yearly transfer/"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The driving force behind it was basically the fact that the records center was going to a reimbursable basis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That agencies were going to be charged for storing their records in a records center. For a long time the emphasis in the records center program as I remember it was the fact that they could get records out oftheir own agency space into low-cost space. The cost was not on their part, basically, it was on the Archives' part that ran the system. But with the reimbursable system implementation earlier in the century, at the tum of the century, they began to charge agencies for that service. And so, many agencies felt that they needed to transfer their records in order tci avoid charges."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if they are permanent records, get them out ofthe records center, and don't pay for them."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.621298240221256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The driving force behind it was basically the fact that the records center was going to a reimbursable basis."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, right."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That agencies were going to be charged for storing their records in a records center. For a long time the emphasis in the records center program as I remember it was the fact that they could get records out oftheir own agency space into low-cost space. The cost was not on their part, basically, it was on the Archives' part that ran the system. But with the reimbursable system implementation earlier in the century, at the tum of the century, they began to charge agencies for that service. And so, many agencies felt that they needed to transfer their records in order tci avoid charges."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if they are permanent records, get them out ofthe records center, and don't pay for them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your role in establishing, or developing, or formalizing, these accessioning procedures?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.134775822468061, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That agencies were going to be charged for storing their records in a records center. For a long time the emphasis in the records center program as I remember it was the fact that they could get records out oftheir own agency space into low-cost space. The cost was not on their part, basically, it was on the Archives' part that ran the system. But with the reimbursable system implementation earlier in the century, at the tum of the century, they began to charge agencies for that service. And so, many agencies felt that they needed to transfer their records in order tci avoid charges."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if they are permanent records, get them out ofthe records center, and don't pay for them."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your role in establishing, or developing, or formalizing, these accessioning procedures?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was involved with the Business Process Reengineering that set this up; I was also involved with what was called the WNRC End ofthe Century Project, which was to go through the material that was scheduled as permanent and to look at the records to see if they really were permanent. We found a large number of records that were mis­- scheduled, that were simply not described properly, that when you took a look at them in the center itself you found they really were not what they said they were and that they should be rescheduled under something else. It goes, I think, in part in the sense that people would send records to the record center, and although they would remain under their legal control, it was kind oflike an out-of-sight, out-of-mind kind ofthing. Agencies were not interested in retiring, or accessioning, records, because they had no real incentive to. As long as they remained under their legal control, then were basically paying for the space out ofour own budget, de facto, then they had no incentive to transfer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Has that kind of attitude gone away over the last several years?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 15.705306469408956, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your role in establishing, or developing, or formalizing, these accessioning procedures?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was involved with the Business Process Reengineering that set this up; I was also involved with what was called the WNRC End ofthe Century Project, which was to go through the material that was scheduled as permanent and to look at the records to see if they really were permanent. We found a large number of records that were mis­- scheduled, that were simply not described properly, that when you took a look at them in the center itself you found they really were not what they said they were and that they should be rescheduled under something else. It goes, I think, in part in the sense that people would send records to the record center, and although they would remain under their legal control, it was kind oflike an out-of-sight, out-of-mind kind ofthing. Agencies were not interested in retiring, or accessioning, records, because they had no real incentive to. As long as they remained under their legal control, then were basically paying for the space out ofour own budget, de facto, then they had no incentive to transfer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Has that kind of attitude gone away over the last several years?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think it has moderated considerably. It is really up to the agency now as to whether they want to pay the money to store their records. If they want to pay the money to store the records, then that's what they'll do. But budgets run so many things these days, that it takes a real incentive for them to keep the records there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What kind of relationships have you developed with agency records officers, and how valuable are those relationships?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.193836034854534, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In my career I have had a number of agencies that I have worked with; the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is the most outstanding one I can remember and is the longest ofthe ones that I have had. But I have also developed some relationships based on teaching records disposition schedules when I was in the records appraisal branch. It is valuable to a certain point. You get to know your records officer, and in that case the personal aspect really does smooth the way. You can call on them to ask them questions; in some areas you can call on them ifyou need something, and the personal aspect makes it a little bit better in.terms of getting what it is you need at the moment. And on the other hand, they do the same thing. There have been many cases in which I develop a [Standard Form] 258 for agency records officers, because I've done it, it's more convenient, I can do it and get it to them. That helps them; at least that's one example. In the end, though, I think you have to remember that when you are dealing with agency records officers, that, they do not work for NARA, they work for the agency that pays them. So, you have to be careful, because they will not do anything that they consider to be a detriment, or that their agency doesn't want to do. So you can be very cooperative among small things, but ifyou want a major records collection transferred that they don't want to transfer, they won't do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So there are limits to that relationship ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There are limits to that relationship. But in general, I would say that 70 to 80 percent ofthe time it works pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give examples ofrelationships that are negative; where you have a bad working relationship with an agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There are relationships where due to some sort ofmisunderstahding, or due to some sort ofthing that happened long ago, they have a bad view of the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you think ofany examples?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.770928927616147, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There are limits to that relationship. But in general, I would say that 70 to 80 percent ofthe time it works pretty well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you give examples ofrelationships that are negative; where you have a bad working relationship with an agency?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There are relationships where due to some sort ofmisunderstahding, or due to some sort ofthing that happened long ago, they have a bad view of the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you think ofany examples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I can. We had a records transfer of the Apollo 204 fire investigation, which included some photographs of the three men, the autopsy protocols, and things like that. NASA transferred them to us. We screened them very, very carefully, because there were personal privacy issues involved, and generally speaking you don't want that kind ofinformation splashed over the newspaper pages for the public. But we did release to a researcher portions ofphotographs containing just the space suits themselves, not the people in them, and not the bodies, but just the space suits. The agency was very, very upset over that, but we had judged that to be pictures of equipment, and we could not restrict it under the Freedom oflnfonnation Act, under the restrictions there. Their attitude and their reasoning was that to see the space suits would be able to visualize the bodies. And so, that was a very, very sore point and it went all the way up, at the time, to the Acting Archivist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that affect future records transfers at all? Did they hold records back because ofthis?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 17.52325436401794, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. There are relationships where due to some sort ofmisunderstahding, or due to some sort ofthing that happened long ago, they have a bad view of the National Archives."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you think ofany examples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I can. We had a records transfer of the Apollo 204 fire investigation, which included some photographs of the three men, the autopsy protocols, and things like that. NASA transferred them to us. We screened them very, very carefully, because there were personal privacy issues involved, and generally speaking you don't want that kind ofinformation splashed over the newspaper pages for the public. But we did release to a researcher portions ofphotographs containing just the space suits themselves, not the people in them, and not the bodies, but just the space suits. The agency was very, very upset over that, but we had judged that to be pictures of equipment, and we could not restrict it under the Freedom oflnfonnation Act, under the restrictions there. Their attitude and their reasoning was that to see the space suits would be able to visualize the bodies. And so, that was a very, very sore point and it went all the way up, at the time, to the Acting Archivist."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that affect future records transfers at all? Did they hold records back because ofthis?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm not sure whether they deliberately held records back, but they were reluctant to transfer. They were reluctant to deal with us in the same way afterwards."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are the main challenges you have faced in records accessioning-­ you have mentioned some ofthem--and have these challenges shifted? Are they any different now than they were ten or fifteen years ago?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 5.984312977999999, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think the Archives, like any other bureaucratic organization, when the change from the top occurs, there may be continuity or there may be change. People wait to see what is going to happen. I know there was a controversy when John Carlin first came on board. This was a man who did not have a background in what people considered to be the traditional academic scholarly training that was typical of Archivists roughly from the beginning when the National Archives was established. But I know personally I supported it, because particularly in terms ofability to pursue one's interests on Capitol Hill, which is where all largesse flows from, that Carlin as an ex-governor and a more politically connected person would be able to do that better. I hope that my justification on that was at least partially fulfilled. Now we have another Archivist, Dr. Weinstein, who is basically from more in the mold of the older, scholarly people; but I have no idea, one presumes that he also is working the political side ofthe fence as all ofthese officials should. The jury is still out on that, but it is a change that occurs with every Archivist. Mr. Carlin's big emphasis was on electronic records. Now Dr. Wienstein has said that he wants to continue with that. .."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There is no backing away now."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you recommend any changes in the organization ofthe National Archiyes? Ifyou had to reorganize NW, what would you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[Pause] NW, when the organization came about, was an attempt to bring the lifecycle ofrecords into one organization. NWML for the records appraisal and scheduling part ofit, NWMD for initial processing and declassification, this kind of thing. I would personally like to see more inter-divisional activity between the two. I'm not sure exactly how that is done; you can mandate that it will happen, but the mandate will not necessarily ensure that it will happen. I would just like to see more use within the divisions ofthe expertise that various people have developed in terms ofareas in which they work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would that involve more involvement by processing archivists in reference work, or..."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:81", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.1122, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you remember what your paper was on?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have to do a paper, because at that time ... ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, excellent!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By that time all ofthis had been hashed out. I do remember that there was a considerable amount of questioning on that. In the earlier days ofmy career, your archivists tended to be people from academia. Now you have people who are much more broadly rounded in things like information technology; you don't have to just be a historian or a political scientist to be an archivist anymore. Although certainly it helps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does help. The last of the formal questions is, is there anything else you would like to talk about that we have not covered that might be ofvalue for NARA staff to know?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:83", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 3.458, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn't have to do a paper, because at that time ... ."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, excellent!"}, {"role": "user", "content": "By that time all ofthis had been hashed out. I do remember that there was a considerable amount of questioning on that. In the earlier days ofmy career, your archivists tended to be people from academia. Now you have people who are much more broadly rounded in things like information technology; you don't have to just be a historian or a political scientist to be an archivist anymore. Although certainly it helps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does help. The last of the formal questions is, is there anything else you would like to talk about that we have not covered that might be ofvalue for NARA staff to know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think that as an archivist and as a supervisor I think we have come a long way, but that we still have a long way to go. Particularly in terms of; well, some people believe that the management is horrible around here, that we are a bunch of hard-noses. Things have gotten a lot better in terms ofthe last years as far as the working environment is concerned. The Family and Medical Leave Act, credit time, that kind of thing would have been unheard of, or was unheard of when I started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the work environment like?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.62, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By that time all ofthis had been hashed out. I do remember that there was a considerable amount of questioning on that. In the earlier days ofmy career, your archivists tended to be people from academia. Now you have people who are much more broadly rounded in things like information technology; you don't have to just be a historian or a political scientist to be an archivist anymore. Although certainly it helps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It does help. The last of the formal questions is, is there anything else you would like to talk about that we have not covered that might be ofvalue for NARA staff to know?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think that as an archivist and as a supervisor I think we have come a long way, but that we still have a long way to go. Particularly in terms of; well, some people believe that the management is horrible around here, that we are a bunch of hard-noses. Things have gotten a lot better in terms ofthe last years as far as the working environment is concerned. The Family and Medical Leave Act, credit time, that kind of thing would have been unheard of, or was unheard of when I started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the work environment like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The work environment when I started was that everybody started work at the same time, and everybody quit at the same time. Ifyou used sick leave it was because you were supposed to be sick, so in other words, ifyou were a new father or a new mother caring for your children, that didn't cut any ice. You sere supposed to just use annual leave. And I do remember the controversy over flex-time, when it first came in. One ofthe things that was considered when arguing against it, was that, oh, people will go on flex-time and they'll take Fridays and Mondays off, and we won't have any coverage, this kind ofthing. I remember the study that they did when they worked on the pilot program was that the greatest absenteeism because oftaking time offwere the administrative units rather than the units that actually dealt with the public, so that kind of weakened their case ..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ha, ha, right ..."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00020:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 1.8, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, I think that as an archivist and as a supervisor I think we have come a long way, but that we still have a long way to go. Particularly in terms of; well, some people believe that the management is horrible around here, that we are a bunch of hard-noses. Things have gotten a lot better in terms ofthe last years as far as the working environment is concerned. The Family and Medical Leave Act, credit time, that kind of thing would have been unheard of, or was unheard of when I started."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was the work environment like?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The work environment when I started was that everybody started work at the same time, and everybody quit at the same time. Ifyou used sick leave it was because you were supposed to be sick, so in other words, ifyou were a new father or a new mother caring for your children, that didn't cut any ice. You sere supposed to just use annual leave. And I do remember the controversy over flex-time, when it first came in. One ofthe things that was considered when arguing against it, was that, oh, people will go on flex-time and they'll take Fridays and Mondays off, and we won't have any coverage, this kind ofthing. I remember the study that they did when they worked on the pilot program was that the greatest absenteeism because oftaking time offwere the administrative units rather than the units that actually dealt with the public, so that kind of weakened their case ..."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ha, ha, right ..."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I think that things have gotten better in terms ofthat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How hard was it for you to transition to be a supervisor?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 22.466182004779775, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I'm retired and I do a lot of scroll signs, which keeps me busy in the cold months of the winter and the hot months of the summer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where are you living now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Green Bay, Wisconsin. We farmed for 30 years and then I retired and we bought a farm house and remodeled that. We sold it, bought another house and remodeled that one, and now we moved because it's just too much work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Too much work. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that’s brought me up to today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then the next thing that I want to do or I want you to think back to the year that you joined the Peace Corps and think about what you were doing before and how you heard about it and what made you decide to join."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.073535560866414, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Green Bay, Wisconsin. We farmed for 30 years and then I retired and we bought a farm house and remodeled that. We sold it, bought another house and remodeled that one, and now we moved because it's just too much work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Too much work. OK."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that’s brought me up to today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then the next thing that I want to do or I want you to think back to the year that you joined the Peace Corps and think about what you were doing before and how you heard about it and what made you decide to join."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, that, of course, that was in 1962. And I had been going with a gal for a year and we're going to get married. Then she decided that we weren't going to get married, but I had gone to business school in Milwaukee and my instructor had been around a bit around the world, and that's something I always wanted to do. So as soon as I wasn't tied down, I let me talk to him. And he called Washington, because he was a friend who was. I think. Anyway, he called Washington for me and said that I'd like to join the Peace Corps. And they called me back and a week later they said, you go get your tickets from Milwaukee and you get your passport picture and the tickets will be waiting for you at the airport to go to Arizona to start training to go to Bolivia. Where the hell is Bolivia? I don't know and I don't care. I just want to go. And that's the way I started my training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't really indicate any particular preference to where you wanted to go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.637261734296015, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that’s brought me up to today."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, then the next thing that I want to do or I want you to think back to the year that you joined the Peace Corps and think about what you were doing before and how you heard about it and what made you decide to join."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, that, of course, that was in 1962. And I had been going with a gal for a year and we're going to get married. Then she decided that we weren't going to get married, but I had gone to business school in Milwaukee and my instructor had been around a bit around the world, and that's something I always wanted to do. So as soon as I wasn't tied down, I let me talk to him. And he called Washington, because he was a friend who was. I think. Anyway, he called Washington for me and said that I'd like to join the Peace Corps. And they called me back and a week later they said, you go get your tickets from Milwaukee and you get your passport picture and the tickets will be waiting for you at the airport to go to Arizona to start training to go to Bolivia. Where the hell is Bolivia? I don't know and I don't care. I just want to go. And that's the way I started my training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't really indicate any particular preference to where you wanted to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wanted to go to Africa and I was really, well, that's one place that he had told me about, my instructor. And I thought it was really interesting and everything. But after I heard those guys trying to learn Swahili, boy, I’m glad we went to Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So tell me a little bit about the training and can you describe some of the things that you went through there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.152513038106683, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now, that, of course, that was in 1962. And I had been going with a gal for a year and we're going to get married. Then she decided that we weren't going to get married, but I had gone to business school in Milwaukee and my instructor had been around a bit around the world, and that's something I always wanted to do. So as soon as I wasn't tied down, I let me talk to him. And he called Washington, because he was a friend who was. I think. Anyway, he called Washington for me and said that I'd like to join the Peace Corps. And they called me back and a week later they said, you go get your tickets from Milwaukee and you get your passport picture and the tickets will be waiting for you at the airport to go to Arizona to start training to go to Bolivia. Where the hell is Bolivia? I don't know and I don't care. I just want to go. And that's the way I started my training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you didn't really indicate any particular preference to where you wanted to go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wanted to go to Africa and I was really, well, that's one place that he had told me about, my instructor. And I thought it was really interesting and everything. But after I heard those guys trying to learn Swahili, boy, I’m glad we went to Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So tell me a little bit about the training and can you describe some of the things that you went through there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we got to Arizona on the plane. I got off the plane and I thought, why are they heating up this plane right in the middle of this airport? That was so hot. I have never experienced anything so hot. And that was the start of my training. Of course, then we lived in the stadium at Arizona State University, Tempe, and that was hotter than hell, which I had never experienced. Then we live on the reservation out in Arizona."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any second thoughts about that time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.725014486785204, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wanted to go to Africa and I was really, well, that's one place that he had told me about, my instructor. And I thought it was really interesting and everything. But after I heard those guys trying to learn Swahili, boy, I’m glad we went to Bolivia."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right. So tell me a little bit about the training and can you describe some of the things that you went through there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we got to Arizona on the plane. I got off the plane and I thought, why are they heating up this plane right in the middle of this airport? That was so hot. I have never experienced anything so hot. And that was the start of my training. Of course, then we lived in the stadium at Arizona State University, Tempe, and that was hotter than hell, which I had never experienced. Then we live on the reservation out in Arizona."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any second thoughts about that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it was really interesting. And I said, uh. I never pursued the fact of traveling the world, but this was the opportunity and I wasn't looking back. I encourage anybody that I meet today, through all these years, and if they want to do something to join the Peace Corps, that was the best experience of my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what exactly were you doing out there on the reservation?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.472238318650227, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we got to Arizona on the plane. I got off the plane and I thought, why are they heating up this plane right in the middle of this airport? That was so hot. I have never experienced anything so hot. And that was the start of my training. Of course, then we lived in the stadium at Arizona State University, Tempe, and that was hotter than hell, which I had never experienced. Then we live on the reservation out in Arizona."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any second thoughts about that time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it was really interesting. And I said, uh. I never pursued the fact of traveling the world, but this was the opportunity and I wasn't looking back. I encourage anybody that I meet today, through all these years, and if they want to do something to join the Peace Corps, that was the best experience of my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what exactly were you doing out there on the reservation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We played with the bulldozer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you actually got to do something with a bulldozer?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 18.302487020722474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no, it was really interesting. And I said, uh. I never pursued the fact of traveling the world, but this was the opportunity and I wasn't looking back. I encourage anybody that I meet today, through all these years, and if they want to do something to join the Peace Corps, that was the best experience of my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what exactly were you doing out there on the reservation?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We played with the bulldozer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you actually got to do something with a bulldozer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we leveled some land with a bulldozer. Seems like we did a lot of exercising, and one of the things that fascinated me most was that we could jump in the irrigation ditches with all our clothes on, get out and walk away and be dry in a short time. And of course, Larry Oglesby was very fascinating. When we walked along the drainage ditches, he’d say, stop! Why should we stop? Well, there's a rattlesnake here. Oh, yeah, what's a rattlesnake? I have never heard a rattlesnake. And so we pound on the irrigation ditch and out comes the rattlesnake. And he grabs it by the head and he took it back to the university, found a sack to put it in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my gosh."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 18.113874467469415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We played with the bulldozer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That you actually got to do something with a bulldozer?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we leveled some land with a bulldozer. Seems like we did a lot of exercising, and one of the things that fascinated me most was that we could jump in the irrigation ditches with all our clothes on, get out and walk away and be dry in a short time. And of course, Larry Oglesby was very fascinating. When we walked along the drainage ditches, he’d say, stop! Why should we stop? Well, there's a rattlesnake here. Oh, yeah, what's a rattlesnake? I have never heard a rattlesnake. And so we pound on the irrigation ditch and out comes the rattlesnake. And he grabs it by the head and he took it back to the university, found a sack to put it in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my gosh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the all the training out there, it was very interesting. I visited the Indian homes and talked to some of the Indians there. And I still have a dish that I got from one of them, a clay pot that they gave me. From Arizona, that was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you think of your fellow volunteers?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.459860519410459, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we leveled some land with a bulldozer. Seems like we did a lot of exercising, and one of the things that fascinated me most was that we could jump in the irrigation ditches with all our clothes on, get out and walk away and be dry in a short time. And of course, Larry Oglesby was very fascinating. When we walked along the drainage ditches, he’d say, stop! Why should we stop? Well, there's a rattlesnake here. Oh, yeah, what's a rattlesnake? I have never heard a rattlesnake. And so we pound on the irrigation ditch and out comes the rattlesnake. And he grabs it by the head and he took it back to the university, found a sack to put it in."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my gosh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the all the training out there, it was very interesting. I visited the Indian homes and talked to some of the Indians there. And I still have a dish that I got from one of them, a clay pot that they gave me. From Arizona, that was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you think of your fellow volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All very interesting. First I roomed with Ezra Funke who seemed like he's was his 90s then already, but I'm not sure. And Ralph Long, who was a very personable person. Actually, when Pete Nieblas and I ended up together in Bolivia, I had never roomed with them or never had Spanish courses with them or anything else, but we ended up together in Bolivia, which was really great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after Arizona, then what happened? Can you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.510956132678286, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the all the training out there, it was very interesting. I visited the Indian homes and talked to some of the Indians there. And I still have a dish that I got from one of them, a clay pot that they gave me. From Arizona, that was neat."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So what did you think of your fellow volunteers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All very interesting. First I roomed with Ezra Funke who seemed like he's was his 90s then already, but I'm not sure. And Ralph Long, who was a very personable person. Actually, when Pete Nieblas and I ended up together in Bolivia, I had never roomed with them or never had Spanish courses with them or anything else, but we ended up together in Bolivia, which was really great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after Arizona, then what happened? Can you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we went through. Of course, that was the Cuban Crisis so we went to Florida and from Florida, they sent us back to Brattleboro, Vermont."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about Puerto Rico? Weren't you there? Arecibo, Camp Crozier?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 11.678840147420319, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All very interesting. First I roomed with Ezra Funke who seemed like he's was his 90s then already, but I'm not sure. And Ralph Long, who was a very personable person. Actually, when Pete Nieblas and I ended up together in Bolivia, I had never roomed with them or never had Spanish courses with them or anything else, but we ended up together in Bolivia, which was really great."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after Arizona, then what happened? Can you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we went through. Of course, that was the Cuban Crisis so we went to Florida and from Florida, they sent us back to Brattleboro, Vermont."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about Puerto Rico? Weren't you there? Arecibo, Camp Crozier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.75426683046702, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we went through. Of course, that was the Cuban Crisis so we went to Florida and from Florida, they sent us back to Brattleboro, Vermont."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about Puerto Rico? Weren't you there? Arecibo, Camp Crozier?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was that yeah. That was in between. Well, that was really. The person that cook the meal in Puerto Rico was an ex Army cook, and he said he's never seen a group eat more than we ever did. The food was the best. They had five gallon cans of grapefruit juice and grape juice and orange juice. And it was always colder than cold and it was just delicious. But the training there was very interesting, except for some of the houses we lived in. I had never seen the family that I lived with. It was just a room. So I never got to meet them or but I really don't know if anybody else ever lived there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean in Mayaguez?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.949185367185578, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What do you think of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was that yeah. That was in between. Well, that was really. The person that cook the meal in Puerto Rico was an ex Army cook, and he said he's never seen a group eat more than we ever did. The food was the best. They had five gallon cans of grapefruit juice and grape juice and orange juice. And it was always colder than cold and it was just delicious. But the training there was very interesting, except for some of the houses we lived in. I had never seen the family that I lived with. It was just a room. So I never got to meet them or but I really don't know if anybody else ever lived there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean in Mayaguez?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Mayaguez, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because in Crozier, we lived in the tent."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.276872630206197, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, that was that yeah. That was in between. Well, that was really. The person that cook the meal in Puerto Rico was an ex Army cook, and he said he's never seen a group eat more than we ever did. The food was the best. They had five gallon cans of grapefruit juice and grape juice and orange juice. And it was always colder than cold and it was just delicious. But the training there was very interesting, except for some of the houses we lived in. I had never seen the family that I lived with. It was just a room. So I never got to meet them or but I really don't know if anybody else ever lived there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mean in Mayaguez?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Mayaguez, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because in Crozier, we lived in the tent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did you participate in that? What was your least favorite or most favorite activity there of the physical activities?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.752080700229108, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In Mayaguez, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because in Crozier, we lived in the tent."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did you participate in that? What was your least favorite or most favorite activity there of the physical activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You really like that, huh?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.391200778032342, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Oh, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You did you participate in that? What was your least favorite or most favorite activity there of the physical activities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You really like that, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible] Off the dam. Yeah, I thought that was my greatest experience, something that I would never thought of trying to do. But after the other person did it, I figured, well, they can do that, I can do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I figured if I was able to do it, anyone could. And how about the hike across the island?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.212445308924824, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You really like that, huh?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible] Off the dam. Yeah, I thought that was my greatest experience, something that I would never thought of trying to do. But after the other person did it, I figured, well, they can do that, I can do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I figured if I was able to do it, anyone could. And how about the hike across the island?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was interesting and it was fun. It was all in every part of it. I lived on the farm. I just worked on the farm. And we'd never been, my dad wasn’t a traveler. And why I grew up loving to travel, I don't know, but every part of this whole process was just tremendously interesting to me. I never had a bad day, never a day I didn't like that. You know, I rather think about going home or something like that. There never was a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after Puerto Rico then, what happened? And I guess that's we went home."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 20.236050343249804, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "[inaudible] Off the dam. Yeah, I thought that was my greatest experience, something that I would never thought of trying to do. But after the other person did it, I figured, well, they can do that, I can do it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, I figured if I was able to do it, anyone could. And how about the hike across the island?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was interesting and it was fun. It was all in every part of it. I lived on the farm. I just worked on the farm. And we'd never been, my dad wasn’t a traveler. And why I grew up loving to travel, I don't know, but every part of this whole process was just tremendously interesting to me. I never had a bad day, never a day I didn't like that. You know, I rather think about going home or something like that. There never was a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after Puerto Rico then, what happened? And I guess that's we went home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We all went home, yeah. And then we were supposed to meet back in Florida. Which we did, and, of course, that was the Cuban Crisis and they sent us to Brattleboro, Vermont."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about that experience?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.15116704805534, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was interesting and it was fun. It was all in every part of it. I lived on the farm. I just worked on the farm. And we'd never been, my dad wasn’t a traveler. And why I grew up loving to travel, I don't know, but every part of this whole process was just tremendously interesting to me. I never had a bad day, never a day I didn't like that. You know, I rather think about going home or something like that. There never was a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after Puerto Rico then, what happened? And I guess that's we went home."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We all went home, yeah. And then we were supposed to meet back in Florida. Which we did, and, of course, that was the Cuban Crisis and they sent us to Brattleboro, Vermont."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about that experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what do we do? We played cards and I think the country was beautiful. It was very nice weather, and then they sent us to Boston for the day to get to do something and get us out of their hair I guess, that’s what I've heard. My best experience there was talking to a Bostonian cop, asking him directions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did that go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.167963386728154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We all went home, yeah. And then we were supposed to meet back in Florida. Which we did, and, of course, that was the Cuban Crisis and they sent us to Brattleboro, Vermont."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what about that experience?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what do we do? We played cards and I think the country was beautiful. It was very nice weather, and then they sent us to Boston for the day to get to do something and get us out of their hair I guess, that’s what I've heard. My best experience there was talking to a Bostonian cop, asking him directions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did that go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, between the two of us, and I can't remember just who I was with, when we walked away, he said, did you understand what he said? And I said, no, I didn't understand a word. He said, he might have been talking Spanish for all I know. That was one thing in Puerto Rico. The Spanish instruction was superb. That fellow taught us Spanish, more than we learned at Arizona State."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was at Mayaguez?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.297737096364614, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, what do we do? We played cards and I think the country was beautiful. It was very nice weather, and then they sent us to Boston for the day to get to do something and get us out of their hair I guess, that’s what I've heard. My best experience there was talking to a Bostonian cop, asking him directions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So how did that go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, between the two of us, and I can't remember just who I was with, when we walked away, he said, did you understand what he said? And I said, no, I didn't understand a word. He said, he might have been talking Spanish for all I know. That was one thing in Puerto Rico. The Spanish instruction was superb. That fellow taught us Spanish, more than we learned at Arizona State."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was at Mayaguez?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was Mayaguez. That fellow was terrific, he taught is Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so now let's go back to when you finally arrived in Bolivia, what were your impressions of that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 23.664152329294016, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, between the two of us, and I can't remember just who I was with, when we walked away, he said, did you understand what he said? And I said, no, I didn't understand a word. He said, he might have been talking Spanish for all I know. That was one thing in Puerto Rico. The Spanish instruction was superb. That fellow taught us Spanish, more than we learned at Arizona State."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was at Mayaguez?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was Mayaguez. That fellow was terrific, he taught is Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so now let's go back to when you finally arrived in Bolivia, what were your impressions of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was sicker than a dog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of the altitude?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.960169254771127, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was Mayaguez. That fellow was terrific, he taught is Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so now let's go back to when you finally arrived in Bolivia, what were your impressions of that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was sicker than a dog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of the altitude?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The altitude just killed me. I had headaches for days. And for me, that was kind of a blur. We went and met the president, the whole group. And they took us someplace, which some of the fellows have talked about, but I really don't remember too much about it. The most I remember was leaving La Paz and starting out to Cochabamba with our wagon train and getting gas. Stopping for gas and the drive down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There that probably would have been notable for you, the way they had the gas."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 25.51129917196792, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was sicker than a dog."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Because of the altitude?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The altitude just killed me. I had headaches for days. And for me, that was kind of a blur. We went and met the president, the whole group. And they took us someplace, which some of the fellows have talked about, but I really don't remember too much about it. The most I remember was leaving La Paz and starting out to Cochabamba with our wagon train and getting gas. Stopping for gas and the drive down there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There that probably would have been notable for you, the way they had the gas."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, that for sure. It was a very primitive type deal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So once you got to Cochabamba, then what happened? Can you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.56670212992792, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Cows just loved it. Then they started milking and then he called us up and we went out and looked and they had dug out quite a bit already. And he had about four inches of spoilage on top, which was normal, keeps the air from the rest of it. And that was that was our success, after working for 15 months or something there. I always tell that story. And I said, you know, it took us almost the whole time we were in the Peace Corps to do that. So things didn't move too fast. But the people were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did the people understand how to do it so they could do it after that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as far as I know, they did well. They saw the results and he knew the way he built it and how it worked and everything. And so. About the time that the project got finished, that he was using it, it was almost time for us to leave. It took that long."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like things don't happen overnight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They sure don’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that sounds like a really fascinating project, Larry. Tell me what else what other things come to mind when you think about the projects that you did? Either that did work or didn't work."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.29633569991991, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, as far as I know, they did well. They saw the results and he knew the way he built it and how it worked and everything. And so. About the time that the project got finished, that he was using it, it was almost time for us to leave. It took that long."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Like things don't happen overnight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They sure don’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that sounds like a really fascinating project, Larry. Tell me what else what other things come to mind when you think about the projects that you did? Either that did work or didn't work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s not so much they didn't work, it just forever to do anything. Like you say, in farming you don't see results. It's like a scientific experiment. It all takes time. I always say the best thing that I got out of the Peace Corps or in Bolivia was what they taught me, not what I taught them. It’s all what they taught me. The life that was there was very important. In Arani when I visited Bill Schnek the thing I like best was the goat cheese. Of course, Dr. Grace goes, that's probably got so many germs in it. I said, well I’ve survived so far. But the projects. I did various things but nothing as good as the silo and getting those tractors started after two years we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you weren't working, what did you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:65", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 18.10703966657768, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They sure don’t."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, that sounds like a really fascinating project, Larry. Tell me what else what other things come to mind when you think about the projects that you did? Either that did work or didn't work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s not so much they didn't work, it just forever to do anything. Like you say, in farming you don't see results. It's like a scientific experiment. It all takes time. I always say the best thing that I got out of the Peace Corps or in Bolivia was what they taught me, not what I taught them. It’s all what they taught me. The life that was there was very important. In Arani when I visited Bill Schnek the thing I like best was the goat cheese. Of course, Dr. Grace goes, that's probably got so many germs in it. I said, well I’ve survived so far. But the projects. I did various things but nothing as good as the silo and getting those tractors started after two years we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you weren't working, what did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Peter had a friend that had some guns so we went hunting codorniz, which is like a quail. And that was very interesting. We went down to Chapare. The friends of ours had a place down there and along the river. We hunted alligators and ate alligators. Then I went with, I can't remember just who, but it’s up in the mountains, one of their projects up there, and we went up there and gave smallpox shots to kids, which they weren't too happy about, but we told them that we would take their picture after we got all done. Well then everything was pretty good because they wanted their picture taken. Course we didn't have cameras that you could see right away, the picture that turned out, but just to get their picture taken was fascinating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any traveling outside of Bolivia?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 20.11893296286409, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, it’s not so much they didn't work, it just forever to do anything. Like you say, in farming you don't see results. It's like a scientific experiment. It all takes time. I always say the best thing that I got out of the Peace Corps or in Bolivia was what they taught me, not what I taught them. It’s all what they taught me. The life that was there was very important. In Arani when I visited Bill Schnek the thing I like best was the goat cheese. Of course, Dr. Grace goes, that's probably got so many germs in it. I said, well I’ve survived so far. But the projects. I did various things but nothing as good as the silo and getting those tractors started after two years we were there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So when you weren't working, what did you do?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Peter had a friend that had some guns so we went hunting codorniz, which is like a quail. And that was very interesting. We went down to Chapare. The friends of ours had a place down there and along the river. We hunted alligators and ate alligators. Then I went with, I can't remember just who, but it’s up in the mountains, one of their projects up there, and we went up there and gave smallpox shots to kids, which they weren't too happy about, but we told them that we would take their picture after we got all done. Well then everything was pretty good because they wanted their picture taken. Course we didn't have cameras that you could see right away, the picture that turned out, but just to get their picture taken was fascinating."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do any traveling outside of Bolivia?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We sure did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But where did you go?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.653003657856901, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We sure did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But where did you go?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, Bill Schnek and Pete and I went to Machu Picchu and went to Peru. And then Bill Schnek went back and Peter and I went down to Chile, Santiago, Chile, and we rode the trains back up through Chile and back up to La Paz and took the bus back down to Cochabamba, which was a real experience if you've ever ridden the train. And we went on bus trips around Bolivia, up to Portasee, and there were busses that ran on the railroad tracks down to part of the country. And we took those and at that time, I learned to say, [inaudible]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Which means?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What are you laughing at? Because I have odd shoes with the lifts on them. The campesinos would come up and they would talk about it, you know, and they were kind of laughing and everything. And Peter and I would wait for them to get closer and closer and then I would say [inaudible] and they would just fade away. And that was one of our troops. And the other trip we went down to Brazil and Paraguay, down to Argentina. And we're always trying to take in as Argentina, not as Americans. So we've never heard anything about being American, but we always heard things about us being Argentineans. But we saw a lot of the country, as much as possible. That was one thing that was really amazing because Peter and I had the same ideas As far as we could go as cheaply as we could possibly go. If we got into hotel rooms that smelled like Lysol, that was great. We knew that there was some disinfectant in them anyway. We got sick once in a while, but not very much. But Peter and I traveled, traveled a lot as much as we possibly could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if you think back about your time in Bolivia, other than the silo and the tractors that you got resuscitated, uh, what stands out in your mind that you remember?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.917288466490001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What are you laughing at? Because I have odd shoes with the lifts on them. The campesinos would come up and they would talk about it, you know, and they were kind of laughing and everything. And Peter and I would wait for them to get closer and closer and then I would say [inaudible] and they would just fade away. And that was one of our troops. And the other trip we went down to Brazil and Paraguay, down to Argentina. And we're always trying to take in as Argentina, not as Americans. So we've never heard anything about being American, but we always heard things about us being Argentineans. But we saw a lot of the country, as much as possible. That was one thing that was really amazing because Peter and I had the same ideas As far as we could go as cheaply as we could possibly go. If we got into hotel rooms that smelled like Lysol, that was great. We knew that there was some disinfectant in them anyway. We got sick once in a while, but not very much. But Peter and I traveled, traveled a lot as much as we possibly could."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So if you think back about your time in Bolivia, other than the silo and the tractors that you got resuscitated, uh, what stands out in your mind that you remember?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The people. The people were always, the people were great. They were nice to us, they helped us. And they were, the people that fascinated me and the way they worked. But when you can see how fella take coat hangers and do welding with them, and that's all he’s got, that really fascinated me because I would never dream of trying to weld with a coat hanger, but that's all they had for materials so that’s what they used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of improvisation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yep. Everywhere. I mean, a tin can to those people was worth more than what was inside of it. But, boy, when you had the tin can, you could do so many different things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so where were you when Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:77", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 9.9080982961, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The people. The people were always, the people were great. They were nice to us, they helped us. And they were, the people that fascinated me and the way they worked. But when you can see how fella take coat hangers and do welding with them, and that's all he’s got, that really fascinated me because I would never dream of trying to weld with a coat hanger, but that's all they had for materials so that’s what they used."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A lot of improvisation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Yep. Everywhere. I mean, a tin can to those people was worth more than what was inside of it. But, boy, when you had the tin can, you could do so many different things."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so where were you when Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was at the Tombarada and I didn't hear anything about it then until I came back to the family we lived with and they said, well, are you leaving right now or are you leaving tomorrow? And we said, are we leaving? For where? To go back to the States. And we said, no. And they said, why not? I said, well, what are we going to do? And I said, things there will keep on going, the Peace Corps will keep on going. It isn't going to stop. And they couldn't believe it. And it’s one of those things that happened, but they were just amazed that we didn’t turn and go right home after that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So after you got out of the Peace Corps, what did you do?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.4324010000000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How do you think being in the Peace Corps changed the direction of your life?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It gave me an insight to what life is like besides our own little corner of the world. And when people talk about poverty, that's one thing that always, you know, what is poverty? Explain poverty. In your form of life, their form of life, or their part of the world. I mean, like in Cochabamba, you saw kids in the way that and dirty playing in the streets, playing with whatever they had, having a good time, laughing, hollering. And I'm sure their life, you know, wasn't a joy, but they had good times, too. And people say, oh, they're so poor, OK, they are in some respects. But to our type of living or their type of living are they poor? They might have been the happiest kids in the world, who knows. So they never felt sorry for themselves. And of course, they always came begging for us, you know. When Peter and I would walk downtown with candy or something, we’d give them some candy cause we were always buying candy, which I loved. [tape break] Walking and just ignoring them. And I motioned to Peter, look down, and he kind of looked down. Well, these two kids were laughing at each other and everything and making jokes, walking alongside us and all of sudden saw us looking at them, “pobrecito, pobrecito.” And we just laughed and laughed. But that was quite an experience that that's one thing. Poverty is, I don't know how to say it, but it's always when people say those people in other countries are so poor, by what standards do you consider them poor?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, that's an important insight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the big difference in how other people live."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you have not gone in the Peace Corps, do you think that you would have done different things than what you ended up doing?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:87", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.92489, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It gave me an insight to what life is like besides our own little corner of the world. And when people talk about poverty, that's one thing that always, you know, what is poverty? Explain poverty. In your form of life, their form of life, or their part of the world. I mean, like in Cochabamba, you saw kids in the way that and dirty playing in the streets, playing with whatever they had, having a good time, laughing, hollering. And I'm sure their life, you know, wasn't a joy, but they had good times, too. And people say, oh, they're so poor, OK, they are in some respects. But to our type of living or their type of living are they poor? They might have been the happiest kids in the world, who knows. So they never felt sorry for themselves. And of course, they always came begging for us, you know. When Peter and I would walk downtown with candy or something, we’d give them some candy cause we were always buying candy, which I loved. [tape break] Walking and just ignoring them. And I motioned to Peter, look down, and he kind of looked down. Well, these two kids were laughing at each other and everything and making jokes, walking alongside us and all of sudden saw us looking at them, “pobrecito, pobrecito.” And we just laughed and laughed. But that was quite an experience that that's one thing. Poverty is, I don't know how to say it, but it's always when people say those people in other countries are so poor, by what standards do you consider them poor?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "All right, that's an important insight."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the big difference in how other people live."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you have not gone in the Peace Corps, do you think that you would have done different things than what you ended up doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would have still tried to go overseas. I would have went overseas somewhere because that was one of the things that always interested me. And of course, my instructor talked about it several times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 5.4721, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's the big difference in how other people live."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you have not gone in the Peace Corps, do you think that you would have done different things than what you ended up doing?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would have still tried to go overseas. I would have went overseas somewhere because that was one of the things that always interested me. And of course, my instructor talked about it several times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty-two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Twenty two and a bunch of us about that age, young, it was a pretty young group."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 4.969, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I would have still tried to go overseas. I would have went overseas somewhere because that was one of the things that always interested me. And of course, my instructor talked about it several times."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How old were you when you went in the Peace Corps?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty-two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Twenty two and a bunch of us about that age, young, it was a pretty young group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. We're kind of the older well, middle older ones. It was a little bit younger, and then Ralph Long who was quite a bit older. Who I enjoyed visiting very much after we got out of Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I actually went to visit him too in Oklahoma there, on my way back to Texas. Uh, OK. Well, have you maintained any kind of contact with any of the people in Bolivia that you knew?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 4.41, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Twenty-two."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Twenty two and a bunch of us about that age, young, it was a pretty young group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. We're kind of the older well, middle older ones. It was a little bit younger, and then Ralph Long who was quite a bit older. Who I enjoyed visiting very much after we got out of Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I actually went to visit him too in Oklahoma there, on my way back to Texas. Uh, OK. Well, have you maintained any kind of contact with any of the people in Bolivia that you knew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not at all. Life just got going too fast, right, between farming and working at night and everything. I always wanted to go back but, of course, that money was always kind of short."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Do you think that being in the Peace Corps changed, it sounds like you did quite a bit with technical assistance, with your silo idea and tractors and things like that, and then you said that you thought you had learned a lot from the Bolivians and that you feel like you think they understand more about Americans because of being in contact with you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 4.9, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. We're kind of the older well, middle older ones. It was a little bit younger, and then Ralph Long who was quite a bit older. Who I enjoyed visiting very much after we got out of Peace Corps."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I actually went to visit him too in Oklahoma there, on my way back to Texas. Uh, OK. Well, have you maintained any kind of contact with any of the people in Bolivia that you knew?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, not at all. Life just got going too fast, right, between farming and working at night and everything. I always wanted to go back but, of course, that money was always kind of short."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Do you think that being in the Peace Corps changed, it sounds like you did quite a bit with technical assistance, with your silo idea and tractors and things like that, and then you said that you thought you had learned a lot from the Bolivians and that you feel like you think they understand more about Americans because of being in contact with you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there's one family that we knew quite well, with four or five kids. And I mean, they were teenagers. But I don't think I ever convinced them that my mother did her own washing and cooking on the farm. They just could not quite picture the fact that we worked the farm ourselves and my mother did the things herself. They just couldn't quite grasp that she didn't have some maids to help her. Like either in Bolivia, I think you were a maid or you had a maid, it seemed to me. That's one of the things that I don't know, I ever convinced them about the way we lived or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's hard to tell. Yeah, so overall, you said in the beginning that you it's experience that you would encourage other people to do, that you would have done it again and you had it to do over."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, there's one family that we knew quite well, with four or five kids. And I mean, they were teenagers. But I don't think I ever convinced them that my mother did her own washing and cooking on the farm. They just could not quite picture the fact that we worked the farm ourselves and my mother did the things herself. They just couldn't quite grasp that she didn't have some maids to help her. Like either in Bolivia, I think you were a maid or you had a maid, it seemed to me. That's one of the things that I don't know, I ever convinced them about the way we lived or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, it's hard to tell. Yeah, so overall, you said in the beginning that you it's experience that you would encourage other people to do, that you would have done it again and you had it to do over."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. All the time. Anybody I've talked to that had the least interest in joining the Peace Corps. If anybody ever did it, I really couldn’t tell you. Farm congress days, which we have in Wisconsin and some other places, they invited me to join the Peace Corps group that was there to talk to people. It didn't last too long because it turned out about 100 [degrees] that weekend or during the week they had it, and it was just so hot that it lasted one day. But other than that, I've never really gone out for public speaking or things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So tell me, Larry, from your point of view, why has this diverse group that was Bolivia II stuck together, maintained contact?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think we all kind of got the same set of values. There's nobody in our group that feels above anybody else, I don't think. As far as I know, I mean, and we really enjoy getting together. So it's the, some we see more often. Stop and see George Wright a couple of times, and I really don't. I guess it's just the, we were all pretty much in the same category I would say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even though people came from diverse backgrounds."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. All the time. Anybody I've talked to that had the least interest in joining the Peace Corps. If anybody ever did it, I really couldn’t tell you. Farm congress days, which we have in Wisconsin and some other places, they invited me to join the Peace Corps group that was there to talk to people. It didn't last too long because it turned out about 100 [degrees] that weekend or during the week they had it, and it was just so hot that it lasted one day. But other than that, I've never really gone out for public speaking or things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So tell me, Larry, from your point of view, why has this diverse group that was Bolivia II stuck together, maintained contact?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think we all kind of got the same set of values. There's nobody in our group that feels above anybody else, I don't think. As far as I know, I mean, and we really enjoy getting together. So it's the, some we see more often. Stop and see George Wright a couple of times, and I really don't. I guess it's just the, we were all pretty much in the same category I would say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even though people came from diverse backgrounds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody's got a different background."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's usually not always the kind of group you would you would have been prepared to see maintain contact that much."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00253:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I think we all kind of got the same set of values. There's nobody in our group that feels above anybody else, I don't think. As far as I know, I mean, and we really enjoy getting together. So it's the, some we see more often. Stop and see George Wright a couple of times, and I really don't. I guess it's just the, we were all pretty much in the same category I would say."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Even though people came from diverse backgrounds."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody's got a different background."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's usually not always the kind of group you would you would have been prepared to see maintain contact that much."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Well, the first, the first time we didn't go either. There was too many things going on, we just couldn't get away. But then after that, why, I said, I'm going to go. Whatever’s going to happen, we’re going to go. It’s always been enjoyable, seeing the guys, and girls."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you have anything else you'd like to add that I haven't asked you about?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00252:124", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 2.132865878634116, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wasn’t that on the tape?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I missed that. Could you repeat that for us now? It was so great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I told them we would come home and watch “Days of Our Lives,” and I told her we'd complain about the acting, complain about the writing. We’d complain about the directing, and Shirley should be a director. She would make an excellent director in the movies.\n\nThe Trench people [in the Mission Control Center] thought I tried to direct them, too. [Laughter]\n\nIt isn’t you're trying to make people do what you want; it’s that she has this attention to detail that directors need. Like, you don’t want your hair parted here and the next thing parted here and he hasn’t been anywhere. She notices things like that. Drives me crazy.\n\nJohn [S.] Llewellyn [Jr.] nicknamed me “Shirley Smart.” [Laughter] Did he tell you that? He always called me Shirley Smart because I was always smarting off, I guess."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You kept them all in line. That’s quite a challenge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did. I did. I mean, I tried to. They know I tried to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have other people that you knew in your association with work that you saw couples get married and have marriages as a NASA couple?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:0", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 15.682643014336053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You want to test?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Let's just assume it's going to work, it's a good recorder. So this is today is June 6, 2015. This is Phyllis Noble. I'm interviewing Abdullahi Edward Tomasiewicz, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Nigeria from August of 1966 to August of 1967 in an agricultural development program, which back then we called Ag- RD. Ed, just tell us very briefly where you live now?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I live in Kano."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Kano, Nigeria?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kano, Nigeria."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And that's an amazingly remarkable thing I have to say. So Ed's in, we're doing this interview on the campus of Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley, because there's a Peace Corps conference going on here this weekend. And Ed's training group paid for him to come over here, which is to all of our delight. Um, let's begin at the beginning. Where did where did you grow up?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:2", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.202936682595613, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I live in Kano."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In Kano, Nigeria?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kano, Nigeria."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And that's an amazingly remarkable thing I have to say. So Ed's in, we're doing this interview on the campus of Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley, because there's a Peace Corps conference going on here this weekend. And Ed's training group paid for him to come over here, which is to all of our delight. Um, let's begin at the beginning. Where did where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Waterbury, Connecticut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Waterbury, Connecticut. And how big was your family? Did you have siblings?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:4", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.89215186955068, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kano, Nigeria."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And that's an amazingly remarkable thing I have to say. So Ed's in, we're doing this interview on the campus of Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley, because there's a Peace Corps conference going on here this weekend. And Ed's training group paid for him to come over here, which is to all of our delight. Um, let's begin at the beginning. Where did where did you grow up?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Waterbury, Connecticut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Waterbury, Connecticut. And how big was your family? Did you have siblings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seven children."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where are you in the line?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:6", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 17.657946521722977, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Waterbury, Connecticut."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Waterbury, Connecticut. And how big was your family? Did you have siblings?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seven children."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where are you in the line?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m the second oldest. I have an older brother and I have brothers and sisters younger than me. One of the last one is now late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sorry to hear."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:8", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.064385024136639, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Seven children."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where are you in the line?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m the second oldest. I have an older brother and I have brothers and sisters younger than me. One of the last one is now late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sorry to hear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He died in Germany about 20 years ago. So there's six remaining. My parents all died in the 2005 to 2007 period. My father died in 2005. My mother in 2007. I was here for my father's funeral and here to put my mother to rest. Because she waited for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh she did."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:10", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.293761137929598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m the second oldest. I have an older brother and I have brothers and sisters younger than me. One of the last one is now late."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sorry to hear."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He died in Germany about 20 years ago. So there's six remaining. My parents all died in the 2005 to 2007 period. My father died in 2005. My mother in 2007. I was here for my father's funeral and here to put my mother to rest. Because she waited for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh she did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. All my brothers and sisters were there. She refused to die until I got here. Yeah, they called me on Friday. I arrived on Sunday. She died on Tuesday."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She needed you to be there."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:12", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.659734597699554, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "He died in Germany about 20 years ago. So there's six remaining. My parents all died in the 2005 to 2007 period. My father died in 2005. My mother in 2007. I was here for my father's funeral and here to put my mother to rest. Because she waited for me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh she did."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. All my brothers and sisters were there. She refused to die until I got here. Yeah, they called me on Friday. I arrived on Sunday. She died on Tuesday."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She needed you to be there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m her pet, I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How wonderful. And so you seven kids and that's nine people, you couldn't all fit in one car and go someplace."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:14", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.066371775221727, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. All my brothers and sisters were there. She refused to die until I got here. Yeah, they called me on Friday. I arrived on Sunday. She died on Tuesday."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She needed you to be there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m her pet, I was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How wonderful. And so you seven kids and that's nine people, you couldn't all fit in one car and go someplace."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had a station wagon. Chevrolet station wagon. And people sat on people's laps of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, you'd have to."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:18", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.674533055829292, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we had a station wagon. Chevrolet station wagon. And people sat on people's laps of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, you'd have to."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but we all were and went to the same grammar schools and high school. Some of the high school students were different, but we all went to St. Francis Xavier Grammar School and Sacred Heart High School."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Catholic school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I graduated in 1960 from there. I worked two years in a factory before going full time to university."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two years in a factory. So before we get into what it was like to work in that factory and where you went to the university, well, let's talk about Sacred Heart High School. Did you were you studying a foreign language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:20", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 12.971703395365878, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but we all were and went to the same grammar schools and high school. Some of the high school students were different, but we all went to St. Francis Xavier Grammar School and Sacred Heart High School."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Catholic school."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I graduated in 1960 from there. I worked two years in a factory before going full time to university."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two years in a factory. So before we get into what it was like to work in that factory and where you went to the university, well, let's talk about Sacred Heart High School. Did you were you studying a foreign language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Latin. That was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yes, of course. And what sort of extracurricular?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:22", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.301892661517643, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. And I graduated in 1960 from there. I worked two years in a factory before going full time to university."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Two years in a factory. So before we get into what it was like to work in that factory and where you went to the university, well, let's talk about Sacred Heart High School. Did you were you studying a foreign language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Latin. That was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yes, of course. And what sort of extracurricular?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But what your language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:24", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.557658512797381, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. Latin. That was it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, yes, of course. And what sort of extracurricular?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But what your language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "High school Spanish. Yeah, I don't remember that very well. We use some of it when I went to Peace Corps training because they sent us down to Baja California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you studied both Spanish and Latin in high school?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:26", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 13.9529539031082, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was Spanish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But what your language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "High school Spanish. Yeah, I don't remember that very well. We use some of it when I went to Peace Corps training because they sent us down to Baja California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you studied both Spanish and Latin in high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I mean, not much of it stuck. Let's put it there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. When you get down to Baja, were you able to use it a little bit?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:28", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.281059892342444, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "High school Spanish. Yeah, I don't remember that very well. We use some of it when I went to Peace Corps training because they sent us down to Baja California."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you studied both Spanish and Latin in high school?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I mean, not much of it stuck. Let's put it there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. When you get down to Baja, were you able to use it a little bit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was able to use it, whatever I knew. Wasn’t a lot. But the factory I worked in, in Baja, the guy was an American who owned it. I didn’t need the Spanish, only to talk to the employees to ask them what they were doing, how long it took them to do this, because I ended up redesigning his factory for him because he had grown so quickly that his production facility was a mess. So I told him and he asked me to redesign it. So I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now wait, we’re jumping ahead here."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:30", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.756733213713828, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but I mean, not much of it stuck. Let's put it there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. When you get down to Baja, were you able to use it a little bit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was able to use it, whatever I knew. Wasn’t a lot. But the factory I worked in, in Baja, the guy was an American who owned it. I didn’t need the Spanish, only to talk to the employees to ask them what they were doing, how long it took them to do this, because I ended up redesigning his factory for him because he had grown so quickly that his production facility was a mess. So I told him and he asked me to redesign it. So I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now wait, we’re jumping ahead here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re jumping ahead. We were left on languages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And at home was English the language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:32", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.285259126348697, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was able to use it, whatever I knew. Wasn’t a lot. But the factory I worked in, in Baja, the guy was an American who owned it. I didn’t need the Spanish, only to talk to the employees to ask them what they were doing, how long it took them to do this, because I ended up redesigning his factory for him because he had grown so quickly that his production facility was a mess. So I told him and he asked me to redesign it. So I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Now wait, we’re jumping ahead here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re jumping ahead. We were left on languages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And at home was English the language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. My father's mother spoke only Polish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you pick any up pick up any of the Polish?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:34", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.98362125149855, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’re jumping ahead. We were left on languages."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah, yeah. And at home was English the language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. My father's mother spoke only Polish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you pick any up pick up any of the Polish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very little, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jak się masz."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:36", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.759579168331722, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. My father's mother spoke only Polish."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you pick any up pick up any of the Polish?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very little, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jak się masz."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jak się masz. Spać. That was my grandmother’s. Whenever she got tired of our noise, she would say spać."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Spać. Go to sleep. Yeah."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:38", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.732865742590803, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Very little, yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Jak się masz."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jak się masz. Spać. That was my grandmother’s. Whenever she got tired of our noise, she would say spać."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Spać. Go to sleep. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she had little patience. So that was about all we understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And what sort of stuff did you do in high school? Extracurricular?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:40", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 19.703184158434226, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Jak się masz. Spać. That was my grandmother’s. Whenever she got tired of our noise, she would say spać."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Spać. Go to sleep. Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she had little patience. So that was about all we understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And what sort of stuff did you do in high school? Extracurricular?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I played football and athletics. I did the pole vault well and in football I played junior varsity because unfortunately for most of my time in high school, I was small. I started out in high school at four foot nine, seventy pounds, and I graduated at five feet and 100 pounds. But I love football, so I had to play and I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One would not know this about you now. You're not."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:42", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.670204620482473, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And she had little patience. So that was about all we understand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. And what sort of stuff did you do in high school? Extracurricular?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I played football and athletics. I did the pole vault well and in football I played junior varsity because unfortunately for most of my time in high school, I was small. I started out in high school at four foot nine, seventy pounds, and I graduated at five feet and 100 pounds. But I love football, so I had to play and I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One would not know this about you now. You're not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm not that anymore. I grew after high school. But that's why they gave me the vault because nobody else would do it and I did. The highest height I did was eleven and a half feet, when I was four foot ten. So I thought it was a good achievement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. That’s cool."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:44", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.855782911647193, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh I played football and athletics. I did the pole vault well and in football I played junior varsity because unfortunately for most of my time in high school, I was small. I started out in high school at four foot nine, seventy pounds, and I graduated at five feet and 100 pounds. But I love football, so I had to play and I did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One would not know this about you now. You're not."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm not that anymore. I grew after high school. But that's why they gave me the vault because nobody else would do it and I did. The highest height I did was eleven and a half feet, when I was four foot ten. So I thought it was a good achievement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. That’s cool."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And all always like all-American kids, we played all this baseball and stuff like that. I didn't play that for the high school team. But I did that in university. No, I did play those sports again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we get into the university, did your family did your family take vacations, did your pile on that car?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:46", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.839758790719102, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I'm not that anymore. I grew after high school. But that's why they gave me the vault because nobody else would do it and I did. The highest height I did was eleven and a half feet, when I was four foot ten. So I thought it was a good achievement."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. That’s cool."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And all always like all-American kids, we played all this baseball and stuff like that. I didn't play that for the high school team. But I did that in university. No, I did play those sports again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we get into the university, did your family did your family take vacations, did your pile on that car?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we went to Kansas City where my mother came from. I would say from the time that I was 6 or 8 on our first trip to, um, I was in high school, we went two or three times to Kansas City by road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Stopping along the way?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:48", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.044176434132336, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And all always like all-American kids, we played all this baseball and stuff like that. I didn't play that for the high school team. But I did that in university. No, I did play those sports again."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we get into the university, did your family did your family take vacations, did your pile on that car?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we went to Kansas City where my mother came from. I would say from the time that I was 6 or 8 on our first trip to, um, I was in high school, we went two or three times to Kansas City by road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Stopping along the way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Stopping once or twice. Not much, because every time you stopped it cost you money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. No motels?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:50", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.49352937125815, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, we went to Kansas City where my mother came from. I would say from the time that I was 6 or 8 on our first trip to, um, I was in high school, we went two or three times to Kansas City by road."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Mm hmm. Stopping along the way?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Stopping once or twice. Not much, because every time you stopped it cost you money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. No motels?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, can't afford it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But in terms of international travel that was out of the picture?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:52", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.215032634731276, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Stopping once or twice. Not much, because every time you stopped it cost you money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Yeah. No motels?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, can't afford it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But in terms of international travel that was out of the picture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not at that time. Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've just been given bottles of water. I can’t open it either."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:54", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 30.23892514970142, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, can't afford it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. But in terms of international travel that was out of the picture?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not at that time. Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've just been given bottles of water. I can’t open it either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t open things well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so summer vacations, when you were in high school, when you had summer break, do you have a summer job?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:56", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.376583499668243, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not at that time. Thank you."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've just been given bottles of water. I can’t open it either."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t open things well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so summer vacations, when you were in high school, when you had summer break, do you have a summer job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a newspaper boy from the time I was 11. I had my own route in the neighborhood. I delivered the morning paper and the Sunday paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So before school, you were on your bicycle running around?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:58", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 34.86287055518694, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t open things well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so summer vacations, when you were in high school, when you had summer break, do you have a summer job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a newspaper boy from the time I was 11. I had my own route in the neighborhood. I delivered the morning paper and the Sunday paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So before school, you were on your bicycle running around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Or sled, depending on the snow season. But I did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then at some point you decide you want to go to college. Had your parents been to college?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:60", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 37.62541172798549, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was a newspaper boy from the time I was 11. I had my own route in the neighborhood. I delivered the morning paper and the Sunday paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So before school, you were on your bicycle running around?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Or sled, depending on the snow season. But I did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then at some point you decide you want to go to college. Had your parents been to college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I'm the first one to go to university in my family. That's why I had to work. Because my father was a radio engineer and he had a lot of kids so I realized he couldn't afford it. In fact, from the second year in high school, I paid my tuition with my newspaper route."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your high school tuition at Sacred Heart?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:62", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 37.36156858665054, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. Or sled, depending on the snow season. But I did that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And then at some point you decide you want to go to college. Had your parents been to college?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I'm the first one to go to university in my family. That's why I had to work. Because my father was a radio engineer and he had a lot of kids so I realized he couldn't afford it. In fact, from the second year in high school, I paid my tuition with my newspaper route."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your high school tuition at Sacred Heart?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then I did one year in the factory and then the second year in the factory, I did night school at Newhaven University of Southern Connecticut. So I worked from 7:00 in the morning until 3:30."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of factory?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:64", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 40.401742874056154, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, no. I'm the first one to go to university in my family. That's why I had to work. Because my father was a radio engineer and he had a lot of kids so I realized he couldn't afford it. In fact, from the second year in high school, I paid my tuition with my newspaper route."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Your high school tuition at Sacred Heart?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then I did one year in the factory and then the second year in the factory, I did night school at Newhaven University of Southern Connecticut. So I worked from 7:00 in the morning until 3:30."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of factory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wheeler Electronics. They made electronical components for other things. And I was in the material handling department, which means I go to the stockroom and get the pieces that people need to make their things. So I was up and down all over the place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did that for?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:66", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 34.89082541561795, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. And then I did one year in the factory and then the second year in the factory, I did night school at Newhaven University of Southern Connecticut. So I worked from 7:00 in the morning until 3:30."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what kind of factory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wheeler Electronics. They made electronical components for other things. And I was in the material handling department, which means I go to the stockroom and get the pieces that people need to make their things. So I was up and down all over the place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did that for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did that for a year and realized that I'm only going to get one year. I got a half year of credits going to night school. That means I'll be going to school forever. So I quit and went to full time. So in ‘62 I started at the University of New Haven, which was New Haven College at that time, but eventually became University of New Haven. And I graduated June of ‘66. In fact, next year is what, 50 years. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And working part time?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:68", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 36.54536157290883, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wheeler Electronics. They made electronical components for other things. And I was in the material handling department, which means I go to the stockroom and get the pieces that people need to make their things. So I was up and down all over the place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So you did that for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did that for a year and realized that I'm only going to get one year. I got a half year of credits going to night school. That means I'll be going to school forever. So I quit and went to full time. So in ‘62 I started at the University of New Haven, which was New Haven College at that time, but eventually became University of New Haven. And I graduated June of ‘66. In fact, next year is what, 50 years. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And working part time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the time. In fact, in my junior year I lived on two hours sleep a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness. So you were working full time hours."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:70", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 25.050401747676474, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I did that for a year and realized that I'm only going to get one year. I got a half year of credits going to night school. That means I'll be going to school forever. So I quit and went to full time. So in ‘62 I started at the University of New Haven, which was New Haven College at that time, but eventually became University of New Haven. And I graduated June of ‘66. In fact, next year is what, 50 years. Yeah."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And working part time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the time. In fact, in my junior year I lived on two hours sleep a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness. So you were working full time hours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I worked in Second National Bank of New Haven from 11:00 to 7:00. Then I went to school until around noon or 1:00. Then I worked in the cafeteria for an hour to get my lunch free. Then in the afternoon I was doing cross-country or intramural softball, intramural football, intramural basketball, student, newspaper student government. And then I come back to the cafeteria at 6:00 to work for an hour to get my dinner. And then I went home and went to bed and I slept basically from 8:00 at night till 10:00. And then I had a series of phone calls at 10:00, 10:05, 10:10. The girls from the bank would call me to wake me up so I can get to work at 11:00. And then the ball started rolling all over again. And then on Saturdays instead of sleeping, that was our day for cross-country meets when we go out and run five miles or six miles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Incredible. How did you have the strength to do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:72", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.611557497418303, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "All the time. In fact, in my junior year I lived on two hours sleep a day."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh my goodness. So you were working full time hours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I worked in Second National Bank of New Haven from 11:00 to 7:00. Then I went to school until around noon or 1:00. Then I worked in the cafeteria for an hour to get my lunch free. Then in the afternoon I was doing cross-country or intramural softball, intramural football, intramural basketball, student, newspaper student government. And then I come back to the cafeteria at 6:00 to work for an hour to get my dinner. And then I went home and went to bed and I slept basically from 8:00 at night till 10:00. And then I had a series of phone calls at 10:00, 10:05, 10:10. The girls from the bank would call me to wake me up so I can get to work at 11:00. And then the ball started rolling all over again. And then on Saturdays instead of sleeping, that was our day for cross-country meets when we go out and run five miles or six miles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Incredible. How did you have the strength to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was young and I was in very good shape because I was active in sports all the time. Yeah, and well, I didn't last. I did it eleven months and then I had a problem with my back and that scared me because I couldn't walk for three days. And ended up with, it was just stress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And it's gone away. You needed a good night's sleep."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:74", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.45728610824256, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, I worked in Second National Bank of New Haven from 11:00 to 7:00. Then I went to school until around noon or 1:00. Then I worked in the cafeteria for an hour to get my lunch free. Then in the afternoon I was doing cross-country or intramural softball, intramural football, intramural basketball, student, newspaper student government. And then I come back to the cafeteria at 6:00 to work for an hour to get my dinner. And then I went home and went to bed and I slept basically from 8:00 at night till 10:00. And then I had a series of phone calls at 10:00, 10:05, 10:10. The girls from the bank would call me to wake me up so I can get to work at 11:00. And then the ball started rolling all over again. And then on Saturdays instead of sleeping, that was our day for cross-country meets when we go out and run five miles or six miles."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Incredible. How did you have the strength to do that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was young and I was in very good shape because I was active in sports all the time. Yeah, and well, I didn't last. I did it eleven months and then I had a problem with my back and that scared me because I couldn't walk for three days. And ended up with, it was just stress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And it's gone away. You needed a good night's sleep."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what I needed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you wound up. What were you studying when you were in school. What was your major?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:76", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 31.619206786936175, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was young and I was in very good shape because I was active in sports all the time. Yeah, and well, I didn't last. I did it eleven months and then I had a problem with my back and that scared me because I couldn't walk for three days. And ended up with, it was just stress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. And it's gone away. You needed a good night's sleep."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what I needed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you wound up. What were you studying when you were in school. What was your major?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Industrial administration. Business administration mostly had to do with industry administration, methods and motion study, strength of the materials. Production methods, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got a degree in 1966?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:78", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 24, "return_to_go": 34.02134087437353, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's what I needed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so you wound up. What were you studying when you were in school. What was your major?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Industrial administration. Business administration mostly had to do with industry administration, methods and motion study, strength of the materials. Production methods, things like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You got a degree in 1966?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "1966, yeah. June 19."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "June, and you went into the Peace Corps in August, so what did you do that? Why you decide to join the Peace Corps?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:86", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.039537988680884, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. I can't remember. It's a little long time ago."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So while all I remember is I had to have a hernia operation. Between the time I finished university and the time I reported for the Peace Corps, because if I reported with a hernia, they would have rejected me. So I had the hernia about two and a half, three weeks before I reported."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that they wouldn't reject me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we talk about training, what was the response of your family to your when you told them you were you had applied to the Peace Corps and you were going to go to Africa?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:88", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 14.48837554297876, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So while all I remember is I had to have a hernia operation. Between the time I finished university and the time I reported for the Peace Corps, because if I reported with a hernia, they would have rejected me. So I had the hernia about two and a half, three weeks before I reported."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "For training."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that they wouldn't reject me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we talk about training, what was the response of your family to your when you told them you were you had applied to the Peace Corps and you were going to go to Africa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. I can't recall a direct answer, but because I had been on my own going to university, they just figured it was a natural extrapolation of the way I was becoming. There was some question about going into the Army and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, yeah, there was a draft going on. Had your father been in the military?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:90", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.764861714420844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So that they wouldn't reject me."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we talk about training, what was the response of your family to your when you told them you were you had applied to the Peace Corps and you were going to go to Africa?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. I can't recall a direct answer, but because I had been on my own going to university, they just figured it was a natural extrapolation of the way I was becoming. There was some question about going into the Army and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, yeah, there was a draft going on. Had your father been in the military?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. But you see, my father, by the time he was drafted in World War II, already had three kids. So he was in the last batches of people to get drafted. So he had no military career to speak of. In fact, his best story was that he was on his way to Europe when the war ended and he said Hitler heard he was coming. So, you know, he didn't have a military career and I didn't either. Well, I'll tell you about that later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:92", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 14.183179682689827, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good question. I can't recall a direct answer, but because I had been on my own going to university, they just figured it was a natural extrapolation of the way I was becoming. There was some question about going into the Army and stuff like that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, yeah, there was a draft going on. Had your father been in the military?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yeah. But you see, my father, by the time he was drafted in World War II, already had three kids. So he was in the last batches of people to get drafted. So he had no military career to speak of. In fact, his best story was that he was on his way to Europe when the war ended and he said Hitler heard he was coming. So, you know, he didn't have a military career and I didn't either. Well, I'll tell you about that later."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no initial or noticeable reaction from them. It was something I wanted to do. I was qualified to do it. Go ahead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So where did you go? Where was training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:96", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.053308250234355, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was no initial or noticeable reaction from them. It was something I wanted to do. I was qualified to do it. Go ahead."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. So where did you go? Where was training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "La Jolla."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "La Jolla, San Diego. University of California San Diego campus at La Jolla."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's on the beach, isn't it?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:98", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 15.61478694470484, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "La Jolla."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "La Jolla, San Diego. University of California San Diego campus at La Jolla."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's on the beach, isn't it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, pretty close, I mean the whole of San Diego is on the beach as far as I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, La Jolla means the jewel."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:100", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.683096605227599, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "La Jolla, San Diego. University of California San Diego campus at La Jolla."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's on the beach, isn't it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, pretty close, I mean the whole of San Diego is on the beach as far as I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, La Jolla means the jewel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know. But my uncle, my namesake uncle said, if you get a taxi at the airport, don't say La Jolla, because if you say La Jolla, they'll take you all over the place. So he's the one that told me to say “La Hoya.” And when we got to our camp or the university and we were comparing notes, those that said La Jolla paid fifteen dollars for the taxi. Me, I said La Hoya, it cost me $3.50. So it was a good piece of advice I got from my uncle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. So you show up to training and how many other trainees are there?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:102", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.758996228030664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, pretty close, I mean the whole of San Diego is on the beach as far as I know."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Well, La Jolla means the jewel."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know. But my uncle, my namesake uncle said, if you get a taxi at the airport, don't say La Jolla, because if you say La Jolla, they'll take you all over the place. So he's the one that told me to say “La Hoya.” And when we got to our camp or the university and we were comparing notes, those that said La Jolla paid fifteen dollars for the taxi. Me, I said La Hoya, it cost me $3.50. So it was a good piece of advice I got from my uncle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. So you show up to training and how many other trainees are there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were a combined group. The Ag-RD was together with some health people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were all going to Nigeria?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:104", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.843329142256293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I don't know. But my uncle, my namesake uncle said, if you get a taxi at the airport, don't say La Jolla, because if you say La Jolla, they'll take you all over the place. So he's the one that told me to say “La Hoya.” And when we got to our camp or the university and we were comparing notes, those that said La Jolla paid fifteen dollars for the taxi. Me, I said La Hoya, it cost me $3.50. So it was a good piece of advice I got from my uncle."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No kidding. So you show up to training and how many other trainees are there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were a combined group. The Ag-RD was together with some health people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were all going to Nigeria?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but eventually it helped the health people were sent to Mali, I think, or someplace else because of the situation in Nigeria and also because most of them would have been in the southeast. So there was no point. So they sent them to Mali, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But when they started training, they thought they were going to Nigeria? When they began training, I think they were thinking?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:106", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.04814349139588, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were a combined group. The Ag-RD was together with some health people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you were all going to Nigeria?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, but eventually it helped the health people were sent to Mali, I think, or someplace else because of the situation in Nigeria and also because most of them would have been in the southeast. So there was no point. So they sent them to Mali, I believe."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But when they started training, they thought they were going to Nigeria? When they began training, I think they were thinking?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. We were kind of separate. We had our curriculum, they had theirs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when had come together for things like what language?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:110", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.87425122394553, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think so. We were kind of separate. We had our curriculum, they had theirs."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And when had come together for things like what language?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we came together for meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And sharing dorms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nothing else. No kidding. Huh."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:112", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 16.52694580438392, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we came together for meals."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "And sharing dorms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nothing else. No kidding. Huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had their program and we had ours."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so let’s hear about your program. How many people, was it both men and women or was it all guys?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:114", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 13.918828671537689, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And sharing dorms."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But nothing else. No kidding. Huh."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had their program and we had ours."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so let’s hear about your program. How many people, was it both men and women or was it all guys?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were men because Ag-RD was considered to be a male thing. And we were about 50 to 60 in our group and it was subdivided into community development, rural development, and whatever else there. We were business and there were four of us, one in Maiduguri, one in Kano, one in Kaduna, and one in Gusau."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so where is that last place?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:116", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.1320318572641, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had their program and we had ours."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "OK, so let’s hear about your program. How many people, was it both men and women or was it all guys?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were men because Ag-RD was considered to be a male thing. And we were about 50 to 60 in our group and it was subdivided into community development, rural development, and whatever else there. We were business and there were four of us, one in Maiduguri, one in Kano, one in Kaduna, and one in Gusau."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so where is that last place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gusau. It's now in, what's the name of the state now, they changed the state. It’s not Kebbi. Zamfara, Zamfara state. The old Sokoto state was carved up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so these are all places in the north."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:118", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 13.48003539696011, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were men because Ag-RD was considered to be a male thing. And we were about 50 to 60 in our group and it was subdivided into community development, rural development, and whatever else there. We were business and there were four of us, one in Maiduguri, one in Kano, one in Kaduna, and one in Gusau."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so where is that last place?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gusau. It's now in, what's the name of the state now, they changed the state. It’s not Kebbi. Zamfara, Zamfara state. The old Sokoto state was carved up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so these are all places in the north."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. We were going to the north."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you knew that. And so you're, the language you were being taught?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:120", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.533372663289011, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Gusau. It's now in, what's the name of the state now, they changed the state. It’s not Kebbi. Zamfara, Zamfara state. The old Sokoto state was carved up."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And so these are all places in the north."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. We were going to the north."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you knew that. And so you're, the language you were being taught?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were taught Hausa on printed mimeograph sheets and Hausa instructor, but we didn't get very far. Because one of our group members was the son of a missionary who grew up in Niger, in Nigeria. So everybody is going, [speaks Hausa slowly]. And when it came his turn to read the papers, [speaks rapidly]. So it embarrassed everybody right off the bat. We couldn't match him. So it kind of stifled the development of our language. So we didn't go very far. In fact, I went farther in Tagatu with my Spanish than I did with Hausa in the training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what else did the training consist of?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:122", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.703747403654457, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh yeah. We were going to the north."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, you knew that. And so you're, the language you were being taught?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were taught Hausa on printed mimeograph sheets and Hausa instructor, but we didn't get very far. Because one of our group members was the son of a missionary who grew up in Niger, in Nigeria. So everybody is going, [speaks Hausa slowly]. And when it came his turn to read the papers, [speaks rapidly]. So it embarrassed everybody right off the bat. We couldn't match him. So it kind of stifled the development of our language. So we didn't go very far. In fact, I went farther in Tagatu with my Spanish than I did with Hausa in the training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what else did the training consist of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of my specialty was bookkeeping and production control systems and things of that nature."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so they were related to the job."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:124", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.670830448504953, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were taught Hausa on printed mimeograph sheets and Hausa instructor, but we didn't get very far. Because one of our group members was the son of a missionary who grew up in Niger, in Nigeria. So everybody is going, [speaks Hausa slowly]. And when it came his turn to read the papers, [speaks rapidly]. So it embarrassed everybody right off the bat. We couldn't match him. So it kind of stifled the development of our language. So we didn't go very far. In fact, I went farther in Tagatu with my Spanish than I did with Hausa in the training."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what else did the training consist of?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of my specialty was bookkeeping and production control systems and things of that nature."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so they were related to the job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was all job related. Because we were going into a program which was set up by the Ford Foundation. The Ford Foundation had a contract with the federal government of Nigeria to institute a loan scheme. They call it the Small Industries Credit Loan Scheme, and they had an outpost in each of the provinces of the north. So when we got to our post, we were in charge of that project and we were also in the bureaucracy of the northern Nigerian government. We were the Two-IZ to the provincial commercial officer. The Two-IZ mean second in charge. The provincial commercial officer was the guy in charge of the overall project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had this had this system, this organizational system been explained to you in training?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:126", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.745367165005502, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of my specialty was bookkeeping and production control systems and things of that nature."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ok, so they were related to the job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, it was all job related. Because we were going into a program which was set up by the Ford Foundation. The Ford Foundation had a contract with the federal government of Nigeria to institute a loan scheme. They call it the Small Industries Credit Loan Scheme, and they had an outpost in each of the provinces of the north. So when we got to our post, we were in charge of that project and we were also in the bureaucracy of the northern Nigerian government. We were the Two-IZ to the provincial commercial officer. The Two-IZ mean second in charge. The provincial commercial officer was the guy in charge of the overall project."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And had this had this system, this organizational system been explained to you in training?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was our curriculum, as it were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they included, they talked about how the government was involved?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:130", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 10.920206376550002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was our curriculum, as it were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So they included, they talked about how the government was involved?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they talked about what we were going to do. Not what the government involvement, because they were indicating to us that we were going to be doing it and there was no counterpart from the government. We were under the office of the provincial commercial officer. We were the second in charge and we were in charge because we're going to run the Ford Foundation small industries credit loans. So when we were training, we were trained towards that objective. And then, you know, 1966, Nigeria was in a bit of a problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They just had their second coup at the end of July. And our instructor was sent back to Nigeria to find work for us so that we would have something to do when we got there. So they now appointed me to be the instructor. So I was an instructor and trainee for the second half of our program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had the other trainees had a background similar to yours, had they been to university and studied business?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:132", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 11.022451529500001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, they talked about what we were going to do. Not what the government involvement, because they were indicating to us that we were going to be doing it and there was no counterpart from the government. We were under the office of the provincial commercial officer. We were the second in charge and we were in charge because we're going to run the Ford Foundation small industries credit loans. So when we were training, we were trained towards that objective. And then, you know, 1966, Nigeria was in a bit of a problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They just had their second coup at the end of July. And our instructor was sent back to Nigeria to find work for us so that we would have something to do when we got there. So they now appointed me to be the instructor. So I was an instructor and trainee for the second half of our program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had the other trainees had a background similar to yours, had they been to university and studied business?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they're all grads and I'm sure business grads too. I can remember I could have asked Mike, he just left, but that was basically it. But for some reason they picked me to be the instructor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what sorts of things were you teaching your fellow trainees?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:134", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.136057255, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They just had their second coup at the end of July. And our instructor was sent back to Nigeria to find work for us so that we would have something to do when we got there. So they now appointed me to be the instructor. So I was an instructor and trainee for the second half of our program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Had the other trainees had a background similar to yours, had they been to university and studied business?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they're all grads and I'm sure business grads too. I can remember I could have asked Mike, he just left, but that was basically it. But for some reason they picked me to be the instructor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what sorts of things were you teaching your fellow trainees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I can't really remember. You're talking 50 years ago, and basically it was to make sure you touch all the bases and that you understand what the problems are of the people you're dealing with, not just be dictatorial and telling them what to do, but help them deal with what they had to deal with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds like wisdom from someone who's older than you were at that time."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:136", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 12.37339695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, they're all grads and I'm sure business grads too. I can remember I could have asked Mike, he just left, but that was basically it. But for some reason they picked me to be the instructor."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what sorts of things were you teaching your fellow trainees?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I can't really remember. You're talking 50 years ago, and basically it was to make sure you touch all the bases and that you understand what the problems are of the people you're dealing with, not just be dictatorial and telling them what to do, but help them deal with what they had to deal with."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That sounds like wisdom from someone who's older than you were at that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I've never been dumb."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty profound."}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:140", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.572095000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I've never been dumb."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's pretty profound."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But I was high risk, high gain, so they did not send me with the rest of the group. The rest of the group left on the 6th of December and I left on the 13th with Pan Am. They had chartered a jet for them, but I went on my own."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Because they couldn't decide if they're going to send me to Nigeria because I was a high risk, high gain candidate, but I got there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did they what do you think they thought was risky about you?"}]}
{"block_id": "returned-peace-corps-volunteers-00003:148", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 8.95, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. Oh, I remember the three, I remember the third guy. He was the one who was questioned my motivation. I said, why are you questioning my motivation? He says, because you don't wake up in the morning. I said, I know that's the way I am. It's got nothing to do with motivation. I said I grew up in a house with seven kids. They all had to wake me up. I'm in a dorm now with 25 other guys. There's at least 20 alarms going off between 6:00 and 6:30. I don't hear one of them. If you don't believe me, come there tomorrow morning and see. But I am more motivated than you are. I want to go to Nigeria. Don't question my head, not wake up in the morning as a gauge for my motivation. So I got him too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think a lot of the subtle psychological interviews which we didn't ask for, have been one of several tools for deselecting people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah. You know, surprisingly, there are some university graduates who are very naive and unsocial. They find it difficult to relate inside of groups and some people were deselected because they couldn't meld in with their particular group. So we had no objection to most of the deselections. Not that we had a voice, but we could see why people who were deselected were deselected."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yeah. Were you asked to evaluate your peers?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I probably think so, but I can't remember specifically being asked to do so. Yeah, it sounds like something they were doing. Because they had all the psychological aspects to it. I don't know if I should give you the WBSI story or not because you're ladies but."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, go ahead."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00893:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 29, "return_to_go": 51.01184, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First one in five or six years. It’s a new Science and Exploration Building."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And very green."}, {"role": "user", "content": "And very green. It’s going to be the greenest building in Goddard. We’re a very green center. I’m very proud of this. Half of the natural gas we burn here is actually produced by trash, garbage.\\n\\n We made a contract many, many years ago with a local dump. [Laughs] They stopped dumping in the dump, and they covered it up, and we hooked gas lines into it. Of course, dumps, when they decay put out methane, which, the last time I checked, is natural gas, which a gas furnace loves to burn. So half of the natural gas we burn here is basically free, and it’s produced by decaying trash. So we’re very proud of that.\\n\\n We had to cut through a forest to build a new road here. We planted two trees for every one we took down. We do as much as we can. We don’t use fertilizer here. The grass grows or it doesn’t grow; it depends on whomever controls those things. So we’re pretty proud of our environmental effort here at Goddard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the recent trees planted, you had a little help from the Queen of England [Elizabeth II]."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Queen, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It would be remiss of us to talk about your history here without mentioning the visit from the Queen of England."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.664063368437265, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How much time had you spent with Al Shepard?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We spent a lot of time in the spacecraft doing tests, and making inputs to it changing things, so we were deeply involved with the design. Gus, before we ever got there, he went up, they called it the Gusmobile. He spent, it was nearly full-time. It was a lot like a fighter plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you explain that? What do you mean that it was a lot like a fighter plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was small, like a [Lockheed F-]104 [Starfighter], but all the switches and things, it was just like a regular airplane. The Soviets, after we got working with them, we could fly the whole thing from the ground. They had backups where they could do manual and all this, but the ground couldn’t do anything in Gemini. All they could do is update the computer for navigation, that’s all. Same way in Apollo. We flew the Apollo. The computer, the ground could update the computer for navigation, that’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that because of the way Gus wanted the spacecraft to be designed? He wanted to fly it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 28.515625964930294, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We spent a lot of time in the spacecraft doing tests, and making inputs to it changing things, so we were deeply involved with the design. Gus, before we ever got there, he went up, they called it the Gusmobile. He spent, it was nearly full-time. It was a lot like a fighter plane."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you explain that? What do you mean that it was a lot like a fighter plane?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was small, like a [Lockheed F-]104 [Starfighter], but all the switches and things, it was just like a regular airplane. The Soviets, after we got working with them, we could fly the whole thing from the ground. They had backups where they could do manual and all this, but the ground couldn’t do anything in Gemini. All they could do is update the computer for navigation, that’s all. Same way in Apollo. We flew the Apollo. The computer, the ground could update the computer for navigation, that’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that because of the way Gus wanted the spacecraft to be designed? He wanted to fly it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would be like an airplane. We were all test pilots. Without the crew there, it couldn’t fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your involvement? I understand you were working on range safety and communications and instrumentation. What was your focus?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 28.350695516589216, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was small, like a [Lockheed F-]104 [Starfighter], but all the switches and things, it was just like a regular airplane. The Soviets, after we got working with them, we could fly the whole thing from the ground. They had backups where they could do manual and all this, but the ground couldn’t do anything in Gemini. All they could do is update the computer for navigation, that’s all. Same way in Apollo. We flew the Apollo. The computer, the ground could update the computer for navigation, that’s it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that because of the way Gus wanted the spacecraft to be designed? He wanted to fly it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would be like an airplane. We were all test pilots. Without the crew there, it couldn’t fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your involvement? I understand you were working on range safety and communications and instrumentation. What was your focus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every one of my group, and it carried on through other ones, Deke Slayton would assign us to certain things, like John Young had pressure suits. [James A.] McDivitt had guidance and control. I had range safety, instrumentation, communications. I interfaced a lot with the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], and the communications, how that would work, and the various instrumentation modes, telemetry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find that that was helpful when you eventually flew on Gemini?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.50077279621024, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It would be like an airplane. We were all test pilots. Without the crew there, it couldn’t fly."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What was your involvement? I understand you were working on range safety and communications and instrumentation. What was your focus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every one of my group, and it carried on through other ones, Deke Slayton would assign us to certain things, like John Young had pressure suits. [James A.] McDivitt had guidance and control. I had range safety, instrumentation, communications. I interfaced a lot with the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], and the communications, how that would work, and the various instrumentation modes, telemetry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find that that was helpful when you eventually flew on Gemini?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it pay off in any way, do you think?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 35.00085866245582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Every one of my group, and it carried on through other ones, Deke Slayton would assign us to certain things, like John Young had pressure suits. [James A.] McDivitt had guidance and control. I had range safety, instrumentation, communications. I interfaced a lot with the Cape [Canaveral, Florida], and the communications, how that would work, and the various instrumentation modes, telemetry."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you find that that was helpful when you eventually flew on Gemini?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it pay off in any way, do you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think I had any emergency where I had to use it, but it was a good background, because it interfaced with all the other systems too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand from your book that the commanders got to pick their crewmates."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 38.88984295828424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, sure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it pay off in any way, do you think?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think I had any emergency where I had to use it, but it was a good background, because it interfaced with all the other systems too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand from your book that the commanders got to pick their crewmates."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty much so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were pretty close with Alan Shepard, since you were picked for that first mission?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 43.21093662031582, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think I had any emergency where I had to use it, but it was a good background, because it interfaced with all the other systems too."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I understand from your book that the commanders got to pick their crewmates."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty much so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were pretty close with Alan Shepard, since you were picked for that first mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Real close. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about your relationship with him and how much time you had spent with him before you were selected?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 46.9010406892398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Pretty much so."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were pretty close with Alan Shepard, since you were picked for that first mission?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Real close. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about your relationship with him and how much time you had spent with him before you were selected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t spend a lot of time with him, because we were busy going through systems training and all this. Our personalities, we hit it off good together. Both Naval Academy grads. Our personalities were very compatible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about Wally Schirra, when you went to work with him? How was that similar or different for you?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 52.112267432488665, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Real close. Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about your relationship with him and how much time you had spent with him before you were selected?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t spend a lot of time with him, because we were busy going through systems training and all this. Our personalities, we hit it off good together. Both Naval Academy grads. Our personalities were very compatible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about Wally Schirra, when you went to work with him? How was that similar or different for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wally was a real joker. I take myself too serious, Wally was really fun. Everything that Wally—he can think up jokes like that [snapping fingers]. So it was a good balance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you spent a lot of time in Saint Louis, not much time here in Houston."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 54.569186036098515, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t spend a lot of time with him, because we were busy going through systems training and all this. Our personalities, we hit it off good together. Both Naval Academy grads. Our personalities were very compatible."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What about Wally Schirra, when you went to work with him? How was that similar or different for you?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wally was a real joker. I take myself too serious, Wally was really fun. Everything that Wally—he can think up jokes like that [snapping fingers]. So it was a good balance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you spent a lot of time in Saint Louis, not much time here in Houston."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was up until we shipped the Gemini III spacecraft to the Cape. After that, the only real rendezvous simulator was a mock-up, a hybrid that they had in the basement of McDonnell Aircraft. We’d work that till two and three o’clock in the morning. See, you had a radar, you had a guidance, and you had the computer. If everything worked fine, you could just follow the maneuvers it would tell you. The ground would call up maneuvers too. But what happens if you lose your radar? What happens if you lose your platform? What happens if you lose the computer? We worked up all these procedures, and that’s where I really got deeply into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I found that interesting in the book, because today, astronauts have trainers and they have people who write up checklists and cue cards, but it sounded as if you were writing the procedures."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 22, "return_to_go": 58.41020670677613, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wally was a real joker. I take myself too serious, Wally was really fun. Everything that Wally—he can think up jokes like that [snapping fingers]. So it was a good balance."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned that you spent a lot of time in Saint Louis, not much time here in Houston."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was up until we shipped the Gemini III spacecraft to the Cape. After that, the only real rendezvous simulator was a mock-up, a hybrid that they had in the basement of McDonnell Aircraft. We’d work that till two and three o’clock in the morning. See, you had a radar, you had a guidance, and you had the computer. If everything worked fine, you could just follow the maneuvers it would tell you. The ground would call up maneuvers too. But what happens if you lose your radar? What happens if you lose your platform? What happens if you lose the computer? We worked up all these procedures, and that’s where I really got deeply into it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I found that interesting in the book, because today, astronauts have trainers and they have people who write up checklists and cue cards, but it sounded as if you were writing the procedures."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were writing the checklist as we went. See, things have gotten rather sophisticated now, the computers. Our computer, the only one that had a full readout was on the right side. Like the orbital velocity, you’d hit it, it would come up like a slot machine, pa-ting, pa ting, pa-ting, pa-ting, pa-ting, pa-ting. It wasn’t a big readout like now. The commander had three-digit things for X, Y, and Z for velocity change. He had to maneuver. But I wanted to have a chance to be able to fly it too, with a center stick. So I got them to put in a maneuver controller on the right side. Did you hear about the Stafford bump?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I did, but tell us about it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 15, "return_to_go": 50.19335209317921, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you finally migrate into something beyond the cardboard and plywood that you had?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes. We finally got it going better and better and better. It wasn’t a real star field, it was just symbolic stars. But it got better and better and better."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have to convince Deke Slayton or Bob Gilruth that you needed something more high-fidelity than what you had? Did they come over and watch you in these simulations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we’d talk to Deke, and of course simulators were under Flight Crew Operations. Those people, we’d tell them. Riley [D.] McCafferty was the Chief Training Officer, and we’d tell him, and they were working on it, they knew the shortfall."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about launch for Gemini VI, that first attempt?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 37.07659843327272, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes. That’s all those charts we had. The charts, and we didn’t have the computer. We had the range and the inertial platform. The toughest thing was—or if we had to—was losing a platform, that was a bear. If we lost the radar, and we could angle-track, we could do it. The easiest thing is just losing the computer, because we had radar and we had the angles. The next one down is if we lost the radar. Losing the computer was the easiest, because we still had the radar to tell you how far you were out, and the rate you were going, and then you could angle. When you got within about 70 miles, you could see it, because you always—except if you go in the complete nighttime. They had a flashing strobe on it too, you could see that from about 20 miles out. The worst thing is if you lose that platform, because then your reference, exactly what degree do you make the angle of thrust. We worked all these out in the charts."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s amazing."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s what they still use today, exactly, except they didn’t do it now for the [International] Space Station. They do a phantom rendezvous, come up and do a phantom rendezvous, like, here’s your Space Station, with your solar panels. Say it’s going this way. They come up and you do a rendezvous about three miles behind to a phantom point, and stop. Here’s the Space Station. Then, you just push a down vector so many feet, a few feet per second. If you didn’t do anything relative, you’d do this type of thing. You come ride her from below. All you got to do is thrust down, at very low brake, see. We started braking 25 feet, see, as the target is going like this, you’re braking in a posigrade manner. The vector is going this way, so you’re braking. You’re still inertially aligned with the stars."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You make it sound easy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a lot of work on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 41.19622048141414, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s what they still use today, exactly, except they didn’t do it now for the [International] Space Station. They do a phantom rendezvous, come up and do a phantom rendezvous, like, here’s your Space Station, with your solar panels. Say it’s going this way. They come up and you do a rendezvous about three miles behind to a phantom point, and stop. Here’s the Space Station. Then, you just push a down vector so many feet, a few feet per second. If you didn’t do anything relative, you’d do this type of thing. You come ride her from below. All you got to do is thrust down, at very low brake, see. We started braking 25 feet, see, as the target is going like this, you’re braking in a posigrade manner. The vector is going this way, so you’re braking. You’re still inertially aligned with the stars."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You make it sound easy."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a lot of work on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody still uses the same thing, I hear. Then only they just use, it’s called a phantom rendezvous, and it would go around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s amazing. You had mentioned something in the books that I thought was interesting, is there was always an astronaut at liftoff for Gemini in the blockhouse called Stony."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:59", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 45.773578312682375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We did a lot of work on it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody still uses the same thing, I hear. Then only they just use, it’s called a phantom rendezvous, and it would go around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s amazing. You had mentioned something in the books that I thought was interesting, is there was always an astronaut at liftoff for Gemini in the blockhouse called Stony."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to say, “Liftoff.”"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:61", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 49.74842034742486, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everybody still uses the same thing, I hear. Then only they just use, it’s called a phantom rendezvous, and it would go around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s amazing. You had mentioned something in the books that I thought was interesting, is there was always an astronaut at liftoff for Gemini in the blockhouse called Stony."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to say, “Liftoff.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He’s the only one who could call, “Liftoff.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that? Why was that important?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 47.49824483047207, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had to say, “Liftoff.”"}, {"role": "user", "content": "He’s the only one who could call, “Liftoff.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why is that? Why was that important?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We had a TV camera aimed at the base of the booster, and only he was the one who could call, “Liftoff,” when he saw first motion. Agena vehicle blew up, we put the transponder on VII, launched that. We were to go nine days later. Wally and I were all set to go. Also, he said if the clock starts, boom, the clock starts and the computer goes, it means that disconnect plug on the base is pulled out, and you have lifted off, you got to eject. We got T minus three seconds, started to shake, rattle, three, two, one, zip, it shut out and zero. The clock started, computer started.\\n\\n It was Wally’s responsibility to pull the ejection seat, my responsibility to back him up. We didn’t do a thing. We had lots of simulations of hold kills, but none exactly like that. But we knew in the seat of our pants that we hadn’t lifted off. We also didn’t know about 100 percent oxygen, we were about 16 psi [pounds per square inch]. We had been soaking like that for two hours. Shoot, if we’d fired that, bang, pyrotechnics, open the hatches and snub them, fire the rockets, boy, you’d see two Roman candles going up. But three, two, one, and Al [Alan L.] Bean was our CapCom. There wasn’t a word said, and that’s exactly the right thing to do is don’t say a thing. Bean didn’t say a thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m not sure, though, why it was important to have someone there to say that you had lifted off the pad. Was it just so then you would know you had to eject? Was that the whole purpose behind that person? I know you served in that role yourself."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 62.41185847801381, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was just another positive indication that you had lifted off. They said you’re supposed to have 50 pounds’ pull, some wire you break like that. The high speed camera showed, and it started going, and this plug just fell out. That, in a way, helped save our lives too. And here’s the thrust chamber pressure building up. Then when that plug fell out, just to stop things before it shot out, and here, there’s two engines on Gemini. Here’s one, and here’s the second one. They noticed the second one did that. Why didn’t this one do that? Then they found in the gas generator, every engine has—pump your fuel and oxidizer and you start with a pyro charge, then it takes fuel and oxidizer into it, burns that.\\n\\n Well, they all had it covered with dust caps, the hose, everything, keep everything clean. In installing it, in the gas generator on the engine, you’re supposed to hook up the fuel and the oxygen, take those things off. Some technician—you’re supposed to have a buddy system. I forgot what happened to him, whether they filed charges against him or what, but here was a cap. He just screwed the fuel line right in on top of it. The pyro spun on this engine. It built up, and then there was no fuel flowing into it. Down it came. We went out, found the problem, worked on it, fixed it. Three days later, we lifted off, finally."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. What did you guys do for those three days at the Cape?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’d go to the simulator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just more work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have a drink, work out. I designed the gym. The astronaut gym at the Cape, I designed that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, did you? I didn’t know that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 68.23539830890424, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We’d go to the simulator."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just more work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have a drink, work out. I designed the gym. The astronaut gym at the Cape, I designed that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, did you? I didn’t know that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, in the O&C [Operations and Checkout] Building, when it was built, in the astronaut quarters, I liked this health club that this person let us—we were kind of rock stars around here then. He invited us down to work out at his gym free downtown. It was a posh gym. So I designed a little gym up there around his."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What are your memories of the actual launch of Gemini VI-A?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.06193259006031, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was the name of the manager at the Rice Hotel. I walked in, I had security with me. I had gone to Harvard, and I stopped off in Wright-Patterson [Air Force Base, Ohio], saw Ed White, who had been a student. He was at [United States Military Academy at] West Point the same year I graduated the Naval Academy. Saw him at Wright-Pat and then went to Boston for a while. Three days, turned around and stopped at Wright-Patterson, saw him again on the way back. No, wait a minute, did I see him? Yes, I did too, because I flew down to Houston and back, and then of course it was announced, and I saw him on the way back."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did that influence the Astronaut Office, having been friends, or an instructor-student relationship with some of those guys, when you got down here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had Charlie Bassett, Ted Freeman were students of mine. Jim [James A.] Lovell was a classmate of mine from the Naval Academy. Pete Conrad was a good friend, I met him because he was head of the Performance Section of the Navy Test Pilot School. I was head of the Performance Section of the Air Force Test Pilot School. I used to go back there and I’d fly Navy planes, and he’d come out to Edwards [Air Force Base, California] and we’d talk back and forth about the manuals we’d write, and all of this. I knew Conrad before. I knew Jim Lovell real well, John Young had been with me on the battleship Missouri. Pete Conrad. Neil [A.] Armstrong I’d met, but didn’t really know him. Let’s see, McDivitt was a student of mine, and Borman was a student of mine even though he’s a couple of years older. So one, two, three, four, five—we had nine people. Elliot [M.] See I didn’t know. Who did I miss out of my group?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you count yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. That makes nine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you know him very well?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:95", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.179925100067011, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had Charlie Bassett, Ted Freeman were students of mine. Jim [James A.] Lovell was a classmate of mine from the Naval Academy. Pete Conrad was a good friend, I met him because he was head of the Performance Section of the Navy Test Pilot School. I was head of the Performance Section of the Air Force Test Pilot School. I used to go back there and I’d fly Navy planes, and he’d come out to Edwards [Air Force Base, California] and we’d talk back and forth about the manuals we’d write, and all of this. I knew Conrad before. I knew Jim Lovell real well, John Young had been with me on the battleship Missouri. Pete Conrad. Neil [A.] Armstrong I’d met, but didn’t really know him. Let’s see, McDivitt was a student of mine, and Borman was a student of mine even though he’s a couple of years older. So one, two, three, four, five—we had nine people. Elliot [M.] See I didn’t know. Who did I miss out of my group?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you count yourself?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, no. That makes nine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you know him very well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deke called you about all of those guys then, I take it, and asked you what you thought of those guys? No? He didn’t call you for recommendations?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:99", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 13.802376666749398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Deke called you about all of those guys then, I take it, and asked you what you thought of those guys? No? He didn’t call you for recommendations?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For a reference?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. When we saw each other, we knew we were in the finals, because we had a big group. I don’t remember who else were in the finals, but they had more than nine in the finals that met down in Houston. We weren’t all together at the same time, we’d get different batches to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It made it pretty easy when you got here to Houston, you all had some sort of—not all, but most of you had some sort of relationship before then, so it was pretty easy to work together?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:101", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 14.224862963054886, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "For a reference?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. When we saw each other, we knew we were in the finals, because we had a big group. I don’t remember who else were in the finals, but they had more than nine in the finals that met down in Houston. We weren’t all together at the same time, we’d get different batches to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It made it pretty easy when you got here to Houston, you all had some sort of—not all, but most of you had some sort of relationship before then, so it was pretty easy to work together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I knew McDivitt, I knew Borman as students. I knew John Young from the battleship Missouri, I had seen him before. Pete Conrad, Jim Lovell. See I didn’t know. Neil I had met, but didn’t know him well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was a lot of camaraderie there, before you even got here."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:103", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 15.805403292283206, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. When we saw each other, we knew we were in the finals, because we had a big group. I don’t remember who else were in the finals, but they had more than nine in the finals that met down in Houston. We weren’t all together at the same time, we’d get different batches to come."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It made it pretty easy when you got here to Houston, you all had some sort of—not all, but most of you had some sort of relationship before then, so it was pretty easy to work together?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I knew McDivitt, I knew Borman as students. I knew John Young from the battleship Missouri, I had seen him before. Pete Conrad, Jim Lovell. See I didn’t know. Neil I had met, but didn’t know him well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was a lot of camaraderie there, before you even got here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a lot of competition between all of you for flights?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:105", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.561559213648007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I knew McDivitt, I knew Borman as students. I knew John Young from the battleship Missouri, I had seen him before. Pete Conrad, Jim Lovell. See I didn’t know. Neil I had met, but didn’t know him well."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "There was a lot of camaraderie there, before you even got here."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a lot of competition between all of you for flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.51284357072001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was there a lot of competition between all of you for flights?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We didn’t talk among ourselves, just everybody worked hard. Deke and Al made a decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about Deke’s leadership in the office, and how he helped to shape that office?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.680937300800007, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Of course."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We didn’t talk among ourselves, just everybody worked hard. Deke and Al made a decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about Deke’s leadership in the office, and how he helped to shape that office?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, Deke was tremendous. Had great integrity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you guys ever play any pranks on Deke Slayton?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 21.867708112000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. We didn’t talk among ourselves, just everybody worked hard. Deke and Al made a decision."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you talk about Deke’s leadership in the office, and how he helped to shape that office?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, yes, Deke was tremendous. Had great integrity."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you guys ever play any pranks on Deke Slayton?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. We played—well, first, we played pranks on each other—I don’t think we were—the occasion didn’t come up. I can’t think of any. Maybe we did. I know the original seven played around a lot. Shepard and Schirra and Gordo [Gordon Cooper] were always pulling something off. Our group didn’t mess around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were a more serious bunch?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 18.355195200000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t think so. We played—well, first, we played pranks on each other—I don’t think we were—the occasion didn’t come up. I can’t think of any. Maybe we did. I know the original seven played around a lot. Shepard and Schirra and Gordo [Gordon Cooper] were always pulling something off. Our group didn’t mess around."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were a more serious bunch?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The original seven, they were very friendly to us. Gordo Cooper, particularly since we were both from Oklahoma.\\n\\n [pause in recording]\\n\\n On that EVA [Extravehicular Activity], as soon as Leonov did that, we had to react. It was really amazing the way our program drove their program. Do you know, I could talk a lot, and while I was to do the first EVA, we had to respond, so real fast, they kludged up this umbilical, a squirt gun, and this chest pack for Ed White. Ed nearly got killed coming back in. His heart rate went to 220. His suit ballooned, but see, it ballooned this way, besides this way. He couldn’t get the hatch closed. He finally got it closed. I think Ed was out 22 minutes, Alexey was out 12 minutes.\\n\\n The next one coming up was going to be Gemini VIII, but they had a roll thruster, that was a close one. Have you talked to [David R.] Scott?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you ever talk to Neil [Armstrong]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. We did get to talk to him."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 17.061328000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The original seven, they were very friendly to us. Gordo Cooper, particularly since we were both from Oklahoma.\\n\\n [pause in recording]\\n\\n On that EVA [Extravehicular Activity], as soon as Leonov did that, we had to react. It was really amazing the way our program drove their program. Do you know, I could talk a lot, and while I was to do the first EVA, we had to respond, so real fast, they kludged up this umbilical, a squirt gun, and this chest pack for Ed White. Ed nearly got killed coming back in. His heart rate went to 220. His suit ballooned, but see, it ballooned this way, besides this way. He couldn’t get the hatch closed. He finally got it closed. I think Ed was out 22 minutes, Alexey was out 12 minutes.\\n\\n The next one coming up was going to be Gemini VIII, but they had a roll thruster, that was a close one. Have you talked to [David R.] Scott?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you ever talk to Neil [Armstrong]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. We did get to talk to him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good, because that was a close one. We had two close calls in Gemini. That shutdown on Gemini VI, and then the spin-up on Gemini VIII. Scott was fairly tall too. They came up with an invention after Gemini IV, very simple. It was an aluminum I-beam about this long you would hook to the hatch, then here you had a steel cable you hooked over here. The commander could take it and do this over the center, so it was a crunch. That’s what got [Eugene A.] Cernan in. The hatch was about that far, he couldn’t get the hatch closed, where he could ratchet it on. Thank God we came up with that device. Then it was after Gemini IX, we started thinking, well, how can we be better simulate walking and working in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a pretty bad spacewalk that you had on your mission."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.845920000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Did you ever talk to Neil [Armstrong]?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. We did get to talk to him."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good, because that was a close one. We had two close calls in Gemini. That shutdown on Gemini VI, and then the spin-up on Gemini VIII. Scott was fairly tall too. They came up with an invention after Gemini IV, very simple. It was an aluminum I-beam about this long you would hook to the hatch, then here you had a steel cable you hooked over here. The commander could take it and do this over the center, so it was a crunch. That’s what got [Eugene A.] Cernan in. The hatch was about that far, he couldn’t get the hatch closed, where he could ratchet it on. Thank God we came up with that device. Then it was after Gemini IX, we started thinking, well, how can we be better simulate walking and working in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a pretty bad spacewalk that you had on your mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you read Cernan’s book?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I did read about Cernan. It still makes my toes tingle."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.8288, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good, because that was a close one. We had two close calls in Gemini. That shutdown on Gemini VI, and then the spin-up on Gemini VIII. Scott was fairly tall too. They came up with an invention after Gemini IV, very simple. It was an aluminum I-beam about this long you would hook to the hatch, then here you had a steel cable you hooked over here. The commander could take it and do this over the center, so it was a crunch. That’s what got [Eugene A.] Cernan in. The hatch was about that far, he couldn’t get the hatch closed, where he could ratchet it on. Thank God we came up with that device. Then it was after Gemini IX, we started thinking, well, how can we be better simulate walking and working in space."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That was a pretty bad spacewalk that you had on your mission."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you read Cernan’s book?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I did read about Cernan. It still makes my toes tingle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve talked to him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we have."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 22.032, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Have you read Cernan’s book?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. I did read about Cernan. It still makes my toes tingle."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve talked to him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That conversation you recorded with Deke in your book about what was going to happen if something happened to Gene on orbit, were you thinking about that when he was out there struggling so much?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 24.48, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve talked to him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we have."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That conversation you recorded with Deke in your book about what was going to happen if something happened to Gene on orbit, were you thinking about that when he was out there struggling so much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What it is, you focus on the job at hand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was good to be home after that one, wasn’t it?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00553:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 10, "return_to_go": 17.2, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That conversation you recorded with Deke in your book about what was going to happen if something happened to Gene on orbit, were you thinking about that when he was out there struggling so much?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "What it is, you focus on the job at hand."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was good to be home after that one, wasn’t it?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, will either one forget that spacewalk? It was—Jesus. We were so naive, we didn’t even think about putting defog on the visor, like you do when you go snorkeling or scuba diving. He had his old chest pack, I could tell he was—Gemini was a real—it weighed about 25 pounds a suit. When it was inflated, it was rigid, you have to put it out like this, boom. You had to expend a lot of work. Where Apollo weighed 55 pounds, you move your arm and it stayed there.\\n\\n That was a real tragedy when we lost Elliot. I think Elliot was—he had never flown in weather a lot. I guess I’d never flown with him much, I flew with Conrad—great pilot. But I flew with Wally a lot. Young and I—see, backup [crew] couldn’t fly with the prime [crew]. I flew with Ed White a few times. But See was kind of—I think of all the pilots, Deke rated him—he had been at Edwards for years. He hadn’t been in a cloud [weather]. He was 60 knots too fast on the final approach. That’s why he missed the runway. Then he tried to stay underneath it. Now, Charlie Bassett was an outstanding pilot. He was the second one in his group to be chosen to fly. I think psychologically, he didn’t want to tell his commander, “Hey, get the speed down and knock it off, and try to stay in the clouds and bend it around like that.”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What impact did the loss of those crewmen have on the astronaut corps? Or were you all just accustomed to seeing people lose their lives?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00154:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.599761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "So anyway, I just thought they were pictures that I’ve always liked so much."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have a couple of quick questions that I just wanted to ask you. Are you still talking photos today?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only with my point-and-shoot. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you what type of camera are you using?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have a nice Nikon, but you have to do some figuring when you use it, because it’s not totally automatic, and you have to get your f-stop and your speed. I used it for a long time, and after I got a point-and-shoot, and the quality of that little thing is so good, that years went by and the Nikon’s just been sitting there and sitting there. Now, I will take it out when I want to take something special like indirect lighting, that gives you the best picture. If I was taking a picture of you, the best picture I could take would be point the light to the ceiling and then that gives good, or better, face quality. The light all spreads and it doesn’t burn up any one point or nothing. So sometimes when I want to take a good picture, I will get the Nikon out, but I’ve gotten spoiled.\\n\\n Now, after I retired, I did try to take pictures, pretty scenery pictures. Now when I go traveling, and we’ve been to Europe several times since I retired, I take both my camcorder and my still point and shoot camera, and I do take good travel pictures, but that’s about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you gotten interested in digital at all or that technology?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00154:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.55529, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Only with my point-and-shoot. [Laughs]"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you what type of camera are you using?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have a nice Nikon, but you have to do some figuring when you use it, because it’s not totally automatic, and you have to get your f-stop and your speed. I used it for a long time, and after I got a point-and-shoot, and the quality of that little thing is so good, that years went by and the Nikon’s just been sitting there and sitting there. Now, I will take it out when I want to take something special like indirect lighting, that gives you the best picture. If I was taking a picture of you, the best picture I could take would be point the light to the ceiling and then that gives good, or better, face quality. The light all spreads and it doesn’t burn up any one point or nothing. So sometimes when I want to take a good picture, I will get the Nikon out, but I’ve gotten spoiled.\\n\\n Now, after I retired, I did try to take pictures, pretty scenery pictures. Now when I go traveling, and we’ve been to Europe several times since I retired, I take both my camcorder and my still point and shoot camera, and I do take good travel pictures, but that’s about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you gotten interested in digital at all or that technology?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I had to make a big decision on it and I said no. I may change my mind, but I don’t think so, because I don’t really have enough reason to do it. I don’t have enough pictures to take. I have nobody but my wife and I. Well, I have my little grandson and I just take still pictures of his birthday and Christmas and stuff like that. But I don’t have enough reason for digital. I really don’t take enough pictures to justify getting one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I read in your memoirs that you took the first official portraits of the first seven astronauts."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00154:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 21.728099999999998, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I have a nice Nikon, but you have to do some figuring when you use it, because it’s not totally automatic, and you have to get your f-stop and your speed. I used it for a long time, and after I got a point-and-shoot, and the quality of that little thing is so good, that years went by and the Nikon’s just been sitting there and sitting there. Now, I will take it out when I want to take something special like indirect lighting, that gives you the best picture. If I was taking a picture of you, the best picture I could take would be point the light to the ceiling and then that gives good, or better, face quality. The light all spreads and it doesn’t burn up any one point or nothing. So sometimes when I want to take a good picture, I will get the Nikon out, but I’ve gotten spoiled.\\n\\n Now, after I retired, I did try to take pictures, pretty scenery pictures. Now when I go traveling, and we’ve been to Europe several times since I retired, I take both my camcorder and my still point and shoot camera, and I do take good travel pictures, but that’s about it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Have you gotten interested in digital at all or that technology?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. I had to make a big decision on it and I said no. I may change my mind, but I don’t think so, because I don’t really have enough reason to do it. I don’t have enough pictures to take. I have nobody but my wife and I. Well, I have my little grandson and I just take still pictures of his birthday and Christmas and stuff like that. But I don’t have enough reason for digital. I really don’t take enough pictures to justify getting one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I read in your memoirs that you took the first official portraits of the first seven astronauts."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thought that’s what it said."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00825:50", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 9.5, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, that’s what the idea of the Center of excellence was, because really that was the focus. We wanted to continue to do the fundamental research in a very specialized way, and with that Center being responsible for that discipline, whatever it might be. Then again with the focus on doing the things that we could do better than anybody else. That was the hard part, because no one agreed that what they were doing wasn’t better than everybody, that we weren’t the Center of excellence for the country in that.\\n\\n As a program would end then we just wouldn’t start another one in that center, if we were trying to get away from it. Again the limiter was the funding. We couldn’t just have everybody get up and move to a new location to make it. That would have been the most efficient way of doing it, so we did it through attrition. I actually don’t know how hard they’re pressing that now or not, but there’s a tendency for the Centers to diversify because they get an opportunity. They’ll get funding or whatever it is. They’ve got the workforce available and that sort of thing.\\n\\n I hope nothing that I’ve said would be considered derogatory, because I don’t mean to criticize. I’m in awe of NASA and what it can do as an agency and as a team. I wouldn’t be the only one to ever refer to Johnson as the evil empire."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think I hadn’t heard that before, but we’re from Johnson too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You haven’t heard that before?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, I’ve never heard that, no."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Really."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I just have one other question. You’ve talked a lot about civil service and things that were being changed on that side, but would you talk a little bit about privatization and efforts towards moving things into contractor positions?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 9, "return_to_go": 35.72883328036828, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My pleasure. My pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I'd like to start by just asking how you began your interest in aeronautics."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably as a result of [Charles A.] Lindbergh's flight across the ocean and the great interest that everyone had in aeronautics for the few years after that. When I was a young boy, I started building model airplanes and I've been interested in aviation and space all my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that cause you to go a certain direction with your education?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it sure did. I wanted to do something in aeronautics and I wanted to be an engineer, so I put the two together and became an aeronautical engineer at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You went to several different universities for postgraduate work."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 29.69870364485364, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably as a result of [Charles A.] Lindbergh's flight across the ocean and the great interest that everyone had in aeronautics for the few years after that. When I was a young boy, I started building model airplanes and I've been interested in aviation and space all my life."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did that cause you to go a certain direction with your education?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it sure did. I wanted to do something in aeronautics and I wanted to be an engineer, so I put the two together and became an aeronautical engineer at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You went to several different universities for postgraduate work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The postgraduate work was mostly in residence at NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics], Langley Field [Langley Research Center, Hampton, Virginia]. The University of Virginia, Virginia Poly Tech, and the College of William and Mary all offered courses there, which were taught by the research scientists at the Center. That's where most of my graduate work, after the master's degree, most of the graduate work was done there. My master's degree was from the University of Oklahoma."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed you were in the Naval Reserve. With your interest in aeronautics, how did you end up in the Navy?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 31.887448494281823, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it sure did. I wanted to do something in aeronautics and I wanted to be an engineer, so I put the two together and became an aeronautical engineer at the time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You went to several different universities for postgraduate work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The postgraduate work was mostly in residence at NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics], Langley Field [Langley Research Center, Hampton, Virginia]. The University of Virginia, Virginia Poly Tech, and the College of William and Mary all offered courses there, which were taught by the research scientists at the Center. That's where most of my graduate work, after the master's degree, most of the graduate work was done there. My master's degree was from the University of Oklahoma."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed you were in the Naval Reserve. With your interest in aeronautics, how did you end up in the Navy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, during the war I was in the Navy, a Naval Reserve officer, and everybody was in one of the armed forces at that time, just about, so I wound up being in the Navy, but I had nothing to do with aeronautics at that time, during that period of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you end up at Langley Field?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 35.4304983269798, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The postgraduate work was mostly in residence at NACA [National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics], Langley Field [Langley Research Center, Hampton, Virginia]. The University of Virginia, Virginia Poly Tech, and the College of William and Mary all offered courses there, which were taught by the research scientists at the Center. That's where most of my graduate work, after the master's degree, most of the graduate work was done there. My master's degree was from the University of Oklahoma."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed you were in the Naval Reserve. With your interest in aeronautics, how did you end up in the Navy?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, during the war I was in the Navy, a Naval Reserve officer, and everybody was in one of the armed forces at that time, just about, so I wound up being in the Navy, but I had nothing to do with aeronautics at that time, during that period of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you end up at Langley Field?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was an interview at the University of Oklahoma as I was getting ready to graduate, they had an interview session, and I went to that. I had read and heard about NACA for a long period of time and so it was kind of the top of the line, as far as I was concerned, and someplace to go where I could further my education as well as do interesting work. So when they offered me a job, it was very easy to accept."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got there, what did you do in your first job?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 14, "return_to_go": 37.144998141088664, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, during the war I was in the Navy, a Naval Reserve officer, and everybody was in one of the armed forces at that time, just about, so I wound up being in the Navy, but I had nothing to do with aeronautics at that time, during that period of time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you end up at Langley Field?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was an interview at the University of Oklahoma as I was getting ready to graduate, they had an interview session, and I went to that. I had read and heard about NACA for a long period of time and so it was kind of the top of the line, as far as I was concerned, and someplace to go where I could further my education as well as do interesting work. So when they offered me a job, it was very easy to accept."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got there, what did you do in your first job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First job I had was in a very small group of three engineers, two computers. In those days, computers were usually ladies with a calculator that they punched the keys on. We had two computers and a secretary and we were designing a very large, high-powered supersonic wind tunnel, which was later built and still is running at Langley, as a matter of fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why were you building this wind tunnel?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.716664601209626, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was an interview at the University of Oklahoma as I was getting ready to graduate, they had an interview session, and I went to that. I had read and heard about NACA for a long period of time and so it was kind of the top of the line, as far as I was concerned, and someplace to go where I could further my education as well as do interesting work. So when they offered me a job, it was very easy to accept."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you got there, what did you do in your first job?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "First job I had was in a very small group of three engineers, two computers. In those days, computers were usually ladies with a calculator that they punched the keys on. We had two computers and a secretary and we were designing a very large, high-powered supersonic wind tunnel, which was later built and still is running at Langley, as a matter of fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why were you building this wind tunnel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time we had not really broken the sound barrier in flight, in free flight, and there was a big push on supersonic aerodynamics to understand how you design vehicles to operate supersonically. This interest was all over the world. Congress passed a bill sponsoring three wind tunnels for NACA, one at Langley, one at Ames [Research Center, Mountain View, California], and one at Lewis [Research Center (now Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio].\\n\\n The one I was working on, of course, was the one at Langley. It was a four-foot-square test section that went from Mach number 1.5 to Mach number 5. It had a drive horsepower of 100,000 horsepower [hp], which at that time was a lot of power and we could only run it from midnight to about six in the morning. During the day, other users of electricity used so much that we couldn't get on the line and operate high power."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you actually do some work in that tunnel after you helped—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 27.462960668010695, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "First job I had was in a very small group of three engineers, two computers. In those days, computers were usually ladies with a calculator that they punched the keys on. We had two computers and a secretary and we were designing a very large, high-powered supersonic wind tunnel, which was later built and still is running at Langley, as a matter of fact."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Why were you building this wind tunnel?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "At that time we had not really broken the sound barrier in flight, in free flight, and there was a big push on supersonic aerodynamics to understand how you design vehicles to operate supersonically. This interest was all over the world. Congress passed a bill sponsoring three wind tunnels for NACA, one at Langley, one at Ames [Research Center, Mountain View, California], and one at Lewis [Research Center (now Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, Ohio].\\n\\n The one I was working on, of course, was the one at Langley. It was a four-foot-square test section that went from Mach number 1.5 to Mach number 5. It had a drive horsepower of 100,000 horsepower [hp], which at that time was a lot of power and we could only run it from midnight to about six in the morning. During the day, other users of electricity used so much that we couldn't get on the line and operate high power."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you actually do some work in that tunnel after you helped—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was in charge of the calibration of the tunnel when we initially put it into operation. Then I was a section head of a group of aerodynamacists working on the Century Series fighters that were coming along at that time, and other advanced military programs, as well as the very early workings on the supersonic transport."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you worked on this wind tunnel, what other projects did you work on at Langley?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 20.81846996050703, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I was in charge of the calibration of the tunnel when we initially put it into operation. Then I was a section head of a group of aerodynamacists working on the Century Series fighters that were coming along at that time, and other advanced military programs, as well as the very early workings on the supersonic transport."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "After you worked on this wind tunnel, what other projects did you work on at Langley?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the wind tunnel until I transferred over to the Space Task Group [STG] in 1959. I went to work at Langley in 1948. No, it was actually 1960 I transferred to the Space Task Group, which was at that time just starting to think about the Apollo Program. At the time I transferred, John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] had not made the first orbital flight yet. That occurred shortly after I got there. But we were already working on the Apollo Program, thinking about how we could get to the Moon and what was the best way to go at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were working on the wind tunnel, then Sputnik was launched. What kind of impact did that have on you and the people you worked with at Langley?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were all very chagrinned, of course, that we weren't the first to get one up. NACA did not really have a real active interest in space up until the Sputnik was launched. We did support work for the military, for the Air Force and Navy both, as well as the Army, but there was very little active activity within NASA itself. Far different than the X Series airplanes when we were trying to first go supersonic, Langley had a very leading role at that time in making the early supersonic flights. The interest in space was much, much less than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the Space Task Group first formed, what did you think about that idea and that direction?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:19", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.909411067230035, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was in the wind tunnel until I transferred over to the Space Task Group [STG] in 1959. I went to work at Langley in 1948. No, it was actually 1960 I transferred to the Space Task Group, which was at that time just starting to think about the Apollo Program. At the time I transferred, John [H.] Glenn [Jr.] had not made the first orbital flight yet. That occurred shortly after I got there. But we were already working on the Apollo Program, thinking about how we could get to the Moon and what was the best way to go at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "While you were working on the wind tunnel, then Sputnik was launched. What kind of impact did that have on you and the people you worked with at Langley?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were all very chagrinned, of course, that we weren't the first to get one up. NACA did not really have a real active interest in space up until the Sputnik was launched. We did support work for the military, for the Air Force and Navy both, as well as the Army, but there was very little active activity within NASA itself. Far different than the X Series airplanes when we were trying to first go supersonic, Langley had a very leading role at that time in making the early supersonic flights. The interest in space was much, much less than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the Space Task Group first formed, what did you think about that idea and that direction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when it was first formed, I thought it probably was just a—for a short period of time it would be a year or two years they would make a flight and then it would be all be over. Of course, it turned out to be a lot more than that. But that was my impression at the time, that it was probably just a transient thing that they formed a special group to go do, and once they did it, then it would probably be disbanded and that would be all of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said in 1960 you joined the Space Task Group."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 23.232678963588928, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, we were all very chagrinned, of course, that we weren't the first to get one up. NACA did not really have a real active interest in space up until the Sputnik was launched. We did support work for the military, for the Air Force and Navy both, as well as the Army, but there was very little active activity within NASA itself. Far different than the X Series airplanes when we were trying to first go supersonic, Langley had a very leading role at that time in making the early supersonic flights. The interest in space was much, much less than that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When the Space Task Group first formed, what did you think about that idea and that direction?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when it was first formed, I thought it probably was just a—for a short period of time it would be a year or two years they would make a flight and then it would be all be over. Of course, it turned out to be a lot more than that. But that was my impression at the time, that it was probably just a transient thing that they formed a special group to go do, and once they did it, then it would probably be disbanded and that would be all of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said in 1960 you joined the Space Task Group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What caused you to join that? Was that a voluntary thing or did someone ask you to?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.369643292876585, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when it was first formed, I thought it probably was just a—for a short period of time it would be a year or two years they would make a flight and then it would be all be over. Of course, it turned out to be a lot more than that. But that was my impression at the time, that it was probably just a transient thing that they formed a special group to go do, and once they did it, then it would probably be disbanded and that would be all of it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You said in 1960 you joined the Space Task Group."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What caused you to join that? Was that a voluntary thing or did someone ask you to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was voluntary on my part. Project Apollo had been announced at that point in time and the President [John F. Kennedy] had committed the country to make a lunar flight, and I wanted to be a part of that. Also being initially from Oklahoma when I found out the Johnson Space Center was going to be in Houston [Texas], that was getting back closer to home, so I volunteered at that point in time to transfer over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you continue to work at Langley for a period of time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 21.52182588097398, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What caused you to join that? Was that a voluntary thing or did someone ask you to?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was voluntary on my part. Project Apollo had been announced at that point in time and the President [John F. Kennedy] had committed the country to make a lunar flight, and I wanted to be a part of that. Also being initially from Oklahoma when I found out the Johnson Space Center was going to be in Houston [Texas], that was getting back closer to home, so I volunteered at that point in time to transfer over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you continue to work at Langley for a period of time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We moved down here in 1961, among the first people that came down to form the Center here. But between the time I transferred and the time we moved, I worked in the task group there at Langley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you first came to be part of the Space Task Group, what were your responsibilities?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 21.690917645526646, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was voluntary on my part. Project Apollo had been announced at that point in time and the President [John F. Kennedy] had committed the country to make a lunar flight, and I wanted to be a part of that. Also being initially from Oklahoma when I found out the Johnson Space Center was going to be in Houston [Texas], that was getting back closer to home, so I volunteered at that point in time to transfer over."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So did you continue to work at Langley for a period of time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We moved down here in 1961, among the first people that came down to form the Center here. But between the time I transferred and the time we moved, I worked in the task group there at Langley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you first came to be part of the Space Task Group, what were your responsibilities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was, again, a part of a relatively small group at that time that was starting as the project office for the Apollo Program. There were not too many of us and a lot to do, so we didn't really have very much of a formal organization. Everybody just pitched in and did whatever was needed. One interesting thing I did was to make a cost estimate for the entire Apollo Program before we even knew how we were going to get to the Moon. We had a period of about a day and a half to get the final answer and get it back up to Congress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you go about estimating something like that that had never been—"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 20.767686272807385, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We moved down here in 1961, among the first people that came down to form the Center here. But between the time I transferred and the time we moved, I worked in the task group there at Langley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you first came to be part of the Space Task Group, what were your responsibilities?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was, again, a part of a relatively small group at that time that was starting as the project office for the Apollo Program. There were not too many of us and a lot to do, so we didn't really have very much of a formal organization. Everybody just pitched in and did whatever was needed. One interesting thing I did was to make a cost estimate for the entire Apollo Program before we even knew how we were going to get to the Moon. We had a period of about a day and a half to get the final answer and get it back up to Congress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you go about estimating something like that that had never been—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just started thinking about—two of us did most of that work for the day and a half. We just starting thinking about the kind of things that you would do, about how many people would it take, about how much would it cost to design and build the kind of hardware. They were just wild guesses at the time, obviously, because we didn't even know what hardware we had to build. We knew we had to build a great big rocket, but as far as the spacecraft goes, we didn't really know how we were going. So we took the experience from Mercury and a little bit of Gemini that had gone on at that time and went away from that and developed what we thought might be a reasonable estimate for the cost."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it turn out to be close?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 23.07520696978598, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was, again, a part of a relatively small group at that time that was starting as the project office for the Apollo Program. There were not too many of us and a lot to do, so we didn't really have very much of a formal organization. Everybody just pitched in and did whatever was needed. One interesting thing I did was to make a cost estimate for the entire Apollo Program before we even knew how we were going to get to the Moon. We had a period of about a day and a half to get the final answer and get it back up to Congress."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you go about estimating something like that that had never been—"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just started thinking about—two of us did most of that work for the day and a half. We just starting thinking about the kind of things that you would do, about how many people would it take, about how much would it cost to design and build the kind of hardware. They were just wild guesses at the time, obviously, because we didn't even know what hardware we had to build. We knew we had to build a great big rocket, but as far as the spacecraft goes, we didn't really know how we were going. So we took the experience from Mercury and a little bit of Gemini that had gone on at that time and went away from that and developed what we thought might be a reasonable estimate for the cost."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it turn out to be close?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. [Laughter] No, it wound up costing a lot more than we thought at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not surprising, there was so little known at that time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 25.639118855317758, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We just started thinking about—two of us did most of that work for the day and a half. We just starting thinking about the kind of things that you would do, about how many people would it take, about how much would it cost to design and build the kind of hardware. They were just wild guesses at the time, obviously, because we didn't even know what hardware we had to build. We knew we had to build a great big rocket, but as far as the spacecraft goes, we didn't really know how we were going. So we took the experience from Mercury and a little bit of Gemini that had gone on at that time and went away from that and developed what we thought might be a reasonable estimate for the cost."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did it turn out to be close?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. [Laughter] No, it wound up costing a lot more than we thought at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not surprising, there was so little known at that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and we didn't spend very much time on it, because we had to get an answer back out for congressional committee, so we just did it. But that was kind of one of the interesting things we did at that time. Looking back on it, it looks pretty darn foolish for two people to go try to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a start."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 28.487909839241954, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. [Laughter] No, it wound up costing a lot more than we thought at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's not surprising, there was so little known at that time."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and we didn't spend very much time on it, because we had to get an answer back out for congressional committee, so we just did it. But that was kind of one of the interesting things we did at that time. Looking back on it, it looks pretty darn foolish for two people to go try to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a start."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a start, and that was typical of the program office at that time, where everybody just pitched in and did whatever was needed to be done at that point in time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. What are some other things that you did?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 29.43101093249106, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, and we didn't spend very much time on it, because we had to get an answer back out for congressional committee, so we just did it. But that was kind of one of the interesting things we did at that time. Looking back on it, it looks pretty darn foolish for two people to go try to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a start."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a start, and that was typical of the program office at that time, where everybody just pitched in and did whatever was needed to be done at that point in time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. What are some other things that you did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We laid out a tentative flight program. We were using the direct ascent as the model at that point in time of the way to go to the Moon, and we laid out what we thought would be a flight program that would lead up to the lunar landing. Interestingly enough, at that point in time our program ended with one landing. We made one landing and came home and the program was over, as far as our flight program went. Of course, it turned out to be a lot more than that at the end of the day.\\n\\n In laying that program out, we were a lot more conservative than it turned out later on we really had to be, so we got a lot more flights to build up the experience to go to the Moon than we actually took in the real world later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you were working on Apollo during this early period, were you confident that we'd be able to make it to the Moon by the end of the decade as the President had announced?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:39", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 30.478901036101178, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a start, and that was typical of the program office at that time, where everybody just pitched in and did whatever was needed to be done at that point in time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. What are some other things that you did?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We laid out a tentative flight program. We were using the direct ascent as the model at that point in time of the way to go to the Moon, and we laid out what we thought would be a flight program that would lead up to the lunar landing. Interestingly enough, at that point in time our program ended with one landing. We made one landing and came home and the program was over, as far as our flight program went. Of course, it turned out to be a lot more than that at the end of the day.\\n\\n In laying that program out, we were a lot more conservative than it turned out later on we really had to be, so we got a lot more flights to build up the experience to go to the Moon than we actually took in the real world later on."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "If you were working on Apollo during this early period, were you confident that we'd be able to make it to the Moon by the end of the decade as the President had announced?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, definitely in time. Of course, it was very early in the decade, so you know, ten years was a long time to me at that point in my life. [Laughter] Yes, I thought if it could be done, it could be done in ten years. The real question was, could it be done reasonably. As with a lot of research, you just don't know until you go try it and see, see how it turns out. So we were optimistic and we thought it was worth giving it a real try, but we weren't really confident. As in most research kinds of programs, you're not really confident of the outcome. If you knew what the outcome was going to be, it wouldn't be research."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's true. Are there any other things? I know you eventually became Chief of Reliability and Quality Assurance. Were there any other things you did before that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 30.71469263716195, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, definitely in time. Of course, it was very early in the decade, so you know, ten years was a long time to me at that point in my life. [Laughter] Yes, I thought if it could be done, it could be done in ten years. The real question was, could it be done reasonably. As with a lot of research, you just don't know until you go try it and see, see how it turns out. So we were optimistic and we thought it was worth giving it a real try, but we weren't really confident. As in most research kinds of programs, you're not really confident of the outcome. If you knew what the outcome was going to be, it wouldn't be research."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's true. Are there any other things? I know you eventually became Chief of Reliability and Quality Assurance. Were there any other things you did before that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when we first moved down to Houston, one of the things that we decided for sure we wanted to do was to test the launch escape system and the parachute recovery system very carefully, and to do that, we needed another launch vehicle. So I was in, again, another small group of a couple of guys, three guys, I guess, at that time that put the Little Joe II launch vehicle under contract. Again, typical of the rapidity with which you could do things at that point in time, we wrote the specification, got bids, evaluated the bids, and made a contract award in less than a month for that. Now that would probably take two years to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you participate in the launches?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I worked on both the Little Joe II launch vehicle and I was also head of operations for the Command Module part, the spacecraft part of that test program. I was mission director at White Sands [Proving Ground, New Mexico] for a couple of the early launches, before I became head of reliability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do all the things simultaneously or were they at different points?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 31.905214041291053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when we first moved down to Houston, one of the things that we decided for sure we wanted to do was to test the launch escape system and the parachute recovery system very carefully, and to do that, we needed another launch vehicle. So I was in, again, another small group of a couple of guys, three guys, I guess, at that time that put the Little Joe II launch vehicle under contract. Again, typical of the rapidity with which you could do things at that point in time, we wrote the specification, got bids, evaluated the bids, and made a contract award in less than a month for that. Now that would probably take two years to do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you participate in the launches?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I worked on both the Little Joe II launch vehicle and I was also head of operations for the Command Module part, the spacecraft part of that test program. I was mission director at White Sands [Proving Ground, New Mexico] for a couple of the early launches, before I became head of reliability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do all the things simultaneously or were they at different points?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were more or less simultaneously. The Little Joe II, the Command Module [CM] that was going on top of it, and the operations force at White Sands that we had to build up. We had no people out there, so we had to start hiring people from scratch to get a work force out there. All that had to be done essentially simultaneously, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you spend a lot of time at White Sands?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 29.89468226810117, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I worked on both the Little Joe II launch vehicle and I was also head of operations for the Command Module part, the spacecraft part of that test program. I was mission director at White Sands [Proving Ground, New Mexico] for a couple of the early launches, before I became head of reliability."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do all the things simultaneously or were they at different points?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were more or less simultaneously. The Little Joe II, the Command Module [CM] that was going on top of it, and the operations force at White Sands that we had to build up. We had no people out there, so we had to start hiring people from scratch to get a work force out there. All that had to be done essentially simultaneously, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you spend a lot of time at White Sands?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, for a year I was there almost every week. At least three weeks out of every month I was there. I would be back in Houston either usually on a Friday or a Monday to tie things together here, and then back out to White Sands for the rest of the week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any of those test episodes or anything that stand out in your mind from that period?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.88298029789019, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were more or less simultaneously. The Little Joe II, the Command Module [CM] that was going on top of it, and the operations force at White Sands that we had to build up. We had no people out there, so we had to start hiring people from scratch to get a work force out there. All that had to be done essentially simultaneously, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you spend a lot of time at White Sands?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, for a year I was there almost every week. At least three weeks out of every month I was there. I would be back in Houston either usually on a Friday or a Monday to tie things together here, and then back out to White Sands for the rest of the week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any of those test episodes or anything that stand out in your mind from that period?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most famous one, I think, was the first guided flight of the Little Joe II launch vehicle. I was not there for that one. I had gone over to reliability at that time and I was actually at Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corporation], designing and building the Lunar Module [LM]. We were patched in by telephone to the people at White Sands so we heard what was going on for that flight. That particular flight we had one of the control fans lock hard over just right after liftoff, and so the thing started spinning, and it finally spun up to the point that the big solid rocket motors came out of the side of the case. It made for a pretty exciting event. [Laughter] I can still remember the commentator that was on the telephone saying, \"It's liftoff. The vehicle is rolling, it's rolling, it's rolling, it's rolling. It blew up!\" [Laughter] That's all we heard at the other end of the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Little Joe tests were successful in the long run?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.20331144210021, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, for a year I was there almost every week. At least three weeks out of every month I was there. I would be back in Houston either usually on a Friday or a Monday to tie things together here, and then back out to White Sands for the rest of the week."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Are there any of those test episodes or anything that stand out in your mind from that period?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most famous one, I think, was the first guided flight of the Little Joe II launch vehicle. I was not there for that one. I had gone over to reliability at that time and I was actually at Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corporation], designing and building the Lunar Module [LM]. We were patched in by telephone to the people at White Sands so we heard what was going on for that flight. That particular flight we had one of the control fans lock hard over just right after liftoff, and so the thing started spinning, and it finally spun up to the point that the big solid rocket motors came out of the side of the case. It made for a pretty exciting event. [Laughter] I can still remember the commentator that was on the telephone saying, \"It's liftoff. The vehicle is rolling, it's rolling, it's rolling, it's rolling. It blew up!\" [Laughter] That's all we heard at the other end of the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Little Joe tests were successful in the long run?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was the only major anomaly we had in that whole program, actually. The people that did that, it was mostly other people, because I left to go to reliability fairly early. But the people that did that did a very, very good job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You went to reliability at around 1964?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 36.89256826900023, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the most famous one, I think, was the first guided flight of the Little Joe II launch vehicle. I was not there for that one. I had gone over to reliability at that time and I was actually at Grumman [Aircraft Engineering Corporation], designing and building the Lunar Module [LM]. We were patched in by telephone to the people at White Sands so we heard what was going on for that flight. That particular flight we had one of the control fans lock hard over just right after liftoff, and so the thing started spinning, and it finally spun up to the point that the big solid rocket motors came out of the side of the case. It made for a pretty exciting event. [Laughter] I can still remember the commentator that was on the telephone saying, \"It's liftoff. The vehicle is rolling, it's rolling, it's rolling, it's rolling. It blew up!\" [Laughter] That's all we heard at the other end of the line."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Little Joe tests were successful in the long run?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was the only major anomaly we had in that whole program, actually. The people that did that, it was mostly other people, because I left to go to reliability fairly early. But the people that did that did a very, very good job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You went to reliability at around 1964?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometime around there, yes. I've forgotten exactly when."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the Apollo Program, what was the roles and responsibilities of reliability and quality assurance?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 36.54729807666692, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, that was the only major anomaly we had in that whole program, actually. The people that did that, it was mostly other people, because I left to go to reliability fairly early. But the people that did that did a very, very good job."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You went to reliability at around 1964?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Sometime around there, yes. I've forgotten exactly when."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "In the Apollo Program, what was the roles and responsibilities of reliability and quality assurance?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, at that time the Center did not have a reliability organization. There was no formal reliability program, and the program manager, Dr. [Joseph F.] Shea, felt that we really needed one. Since the Center did not have a resource we could draw on in that field, we created it within the Apollo office. Another fellow, Bill [William M.] Bland [Jr.], started the reliability effort within the program office and then he moved over to head of Test Operations, I think, anyway, another job, and I stepped in and took the reliability program and built it up for the whole Apollo Program. Later, that whole organization was transferred over to the Center and it became a Center resource rather than just one program office."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So as chief of this organization within the Apollo Program, what were your objectives as far as assuring reliability and quality assurance?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 30.35369509817067, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Would you share with us your memories of that event and how it affected you and the people?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We were all devastated, obviously. When it occurred, I was having dinner out at a restaurant with another fellow from the program office who was a duty officer at that time. In the middle of the dinner, he got a call, as the duty officer, and was told that there had been an accident down there. He didn't have all the details at that time. We had both driven separately, and so our wives took one car and went home, and we went into the Center. I guess we were there all night long, as a matter of fact, trying to understand what had happened and how it could have happened, why and how this could have happened to us.\\n\\n I was not really a part of the long-term effort to determine the cause of the fire. I'd left reliability and I was working on the Lunar Module. I kept fairly close tabs on it, because everything they found in the Command Module and then we would go look at the Lunar Module and could we have that same kind of a problem in the Lunar Module, and in most cases, yes, we could. The problem could have occurred in the Lunar Module had it been a little bit further along in the development cycle at that point in time. So we had a lot of redesign in the Lunar Module, just like the Command Module and the service module had.\\n\\n We were devastated by the loss of the crew, by the setback in the program. There was a change, I think, in the attitude of the people as a result of that, to give much, much more emphasis on crew safety and mission reliability than we had given in the past, and that went all the way down through the subcontractors. It wasn't just the prime contractors; it was all the way down through the subs [subcontractors]."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "So by this time you were chief of the Lunar Module Project Engineering Division."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was the Lunar Module in development when you came in?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:71", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 29.57246308416132, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where was the Lunar Module in development when you came in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, I was very fortunate. On the Lunar Module Program I was able to see the whole program. I helped write the specification for the Lunar Module and worked on it off and on, well, all the way through its development, and helped close the contract out after Apollo was over. So I got to see that whole program from beginning to end. I was very fortunate in that regard."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you have any involvement in the decision of what method would be used to get to the Moon in deciding on Lunar Orbit Rendezvous [LOR]?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Another one of the jobs I had during the time—as I said before, we all just kind of pitched in and did whatever was needed. One of the jobs I had was being head of an organization called Mission Engineering. Mission Engineering was set up to basically look at the different ways to get to the Moon and decide which way should we conduct the mission, what was the most likely way, the best way, the optimum way, of conducting the mission.\\n\\n I worked with and had a group of probably 15 civil servants and 300 or so contract people, both Grumman and Rockwell , Rockwell primarily at that point in time. We looked at all the different methods. It wasn't just us doing it; it was being done at Marshall, it was being done at [NASA] headquarters [Washington, DC]. Bell Labs, that was supporting headquarters, had a lot to do with that at that point in time. But we were contributing out of our organization. Of course, it finally wound up the Lunar Orbit Rendezvous was the best way to go."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What did you think when you first heard about the concept of Lunar Orbit Rendezvous?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:85", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 35.86990232251415, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Probably seven out of the nine. Actually, the final Lunar Module contained many of the ideas that were in some of the other proposals. Another thing I think that denotes the spirit of the Apollo Program, a couple of the proposers, when they submitted their proposals, said, \"If we are not selected, we hope the government will find things in our proposal that will help the final design of whoever is selected, and you're free to use it any way you want.\" That was just unheard of. That just did not happen that way. But, again, it's kind of typical of the support all across the country to the Apollo Program. It made our job very, very much easier with that kind of support."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That's great. So Grumman was finally chosen."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that a unanimous decision?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, in the selection process, that's hard to find out. You start out working with a bunch of committees down at a low level looking at the nine proposals in one small specific area and you rate them. Then another group comes in and looks at all of the committee actions and puts it together and they then say, \"We think this one is superior in this regard, this one is superior in that regard.\" Then it goes to a selection committee, and the selection committee takes those recommendations and comes up and ranks then not all the proposals, but usually the top three or four. I think it was three on the Lunar Module, if I remember right.\\n\\n They rank them and send them over then to the selection official, who was the NASA administrator, and he makes the final decision. So how much better Grumman was than any other proposer, again, if you ask ten different people that worked on different parts of that selection process, you'd probably get ten different answers, because it depends on what part they were looking at. But as I said, I think from what I saw of them, at least seven out of the nine could have been picked and it then would have worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "The Lunar Module was so different from anything that had really been developed at this time. What were some of the challenges from that perspective of making it successful?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 29.498393086746475, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were successful. It worked. But the idea of going up there without having the Lunar Module propulsion system available for at least part of the time to give you backup did not appear to me to be a very attractive thing to do. It turns out they didn't need it, so then it was fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that part of the specifications, I guess, the Lunar Module, that it would serve as somewhat of a backup in case of a problem?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No. No, we knew it would and we designed to give it that kind of a capability, but it was not a part of the original spec. It was something that we came out fortuitously as a result of the way the vehicles were designed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Fortunately so."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Fortunately during Apollo 13, very, very much fortunately."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Before we go into some of the later missions, I'd like to talk about Apollo 9. That was such an important mission as far as testing the Lunar Modules. Could you just share with us your experiences, your memories of Apollo 9 and the impact it had?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.18643412293, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, yes. It really was."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We found in our research the towing bill that Grumman sent to North American."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was pretty cute. That was pretty cute. I was there when they handed that to the program manager from North American, and he really got disturbed about that. [Laughter] To him that was no joke. So we kind of had our hand slapped about that. It was no time to get levity involved, but we thought it was a pretty good thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's just fortunate that it worked out that the Lunar Module was able to fill in in that capacity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, if the explosion had occurred quite a bit closer to the Moon than it did, the Lunar Module just would not have had enough energy to get back to a free-return trajectory. We just couldn't have done it. So we were extremely fortunate as to when it occurred. We were extremely fortunate the way it occurred, as far as giving enough time to transfer the crew back into the Lunar Module and transfer the guidance information from the Command Module computer to a Lunar Module computer, which was probably not absolutely mandatory that that get done, but it would have been very, very difficult to reconstruct that in time to make the Lunar Module burn if we hadn't been able to have that transfer.\\n\\n The guys had just enough time to do it before the—well, actually the service module power did go down. They had to shift over to the Command Module power to finish that transfer, so we used a little bit of the Command Module battery. We tried to recharge that through the LM. I don't guess we ever really knew whether that was successful or not, but we tried to recharge that Command Module battery from the Lunar Module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a great engineering accomplishment bringing them back alive."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:127", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 12.4293712477, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was pretty cute. That was pretty cute. I was there when they handed that to the program manager from North American, and he really got disturbed about that. [Laughter] To him that was no joke. So we kind of had our hand slapped about that. It was no time to get levity involved, but we thought it was a pretty good thing."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It's just fortunate that it worked out that the Lunar Module was able to fill in in that capacity."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, if the explosion had occurred quite a bit closer to the Moon than it did, the Lunar Module just would not have had enough energy to get back to a free-return trajectory. We just couldn't have done it. So we were extremely fortunate as to when it occurred. We were extremely fortunate the way it occurred, as far as giving enough time to transfer the crew back into the Lunar Module and transfer the guidance information from the Command Module computer to a Lunar Module computer, which was probably not absolutely mandatory that that get done, but it would have been very, very difficult to reconstruct that in time to make the Lunar Module burn if we hadn't been able to have that transfer.\\n\\n The guys had just enough time to do it before the—well, actually the service module power did go down. They had to shift over to the Command Module power to finish that transfer, so we used a little bit of the Command Module battery. We tried to recharge that through the LM. I don't guess we ever really knew whether that was successful or not, but we tried to recharge that Command Module battery from the Lunar Module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a great engineering accomplishment bringing them back alive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was. Again, as you said, it was a tremendous team effort to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point in the Apollo Program, you switched from being the Lunar Module chief to being the manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:129", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.365968053000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, if the explosion had occurred quite a bit closer to the Moon than it did, the Lunar Module just would not have had enough energy to get back to a free-return trajectory. We just couldn't have done it. So we were extremely fortunate as to when it occurred. We were extremely fortunate the way it occurred, as far as giving enough time to transfer the crew back into the Lunar Module and transfer the guidance information from the Command Module computer to a Lunar Module computer, which was probably not absolutely mandatory that that get done, but it would have been very, very difficult to reconstruct that in time to make the Lunar Module burn if we hadn't been able to have that transfer.\\n\\n The guys had just enough time to do it before the—well, actually the service module power did go down. They had to shift over to the Command Module power to finish that transfer, so we used a little bit of the Command Module battery. We tried to recharge that through the LM. I don't guess we ever really knew whether that was successful or not, but we tried to recharge that Command Module battery from the Lunar Module."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was a great engineering accomplishment bringing them back alive."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was. Again, as you said, it was a tremendous team effort to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point in the Apollo Program, you switched from being the Lunar Module chief to being the manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, up until Apollo 11, I was chief engineer on the Lunar Module, and then after Apollo 11 through 16, I was manager of the Lunar Module, not just the engineering part, but the whole program. Then after 16, I was the spacecraft program manager, having both the Command Module and the CSM for Apollo 17."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your responsibilities change as you switched from just focusing on the Lunar Module to the whole Apollo Program?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:131", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 10.40663117, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was. It was. Again, as you said, it was a tremendous team effort to do that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "At some point in the Apollo Program, you switched from being the Lunar Module chief to being the manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Well, up until Apollo 11, I was chief engineer on the Lunar Module, and then after Apollo 11 through 16, I was manager of the Lunar Module, not just the engineering part, but the whole program. Then after 16, I was the spacecraft program manager, having both the Command Module and the CSM for Apollo 17."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did your responsibilities change as you switched from just focusing on the Lunar Module to the whole Apollo Program?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, the responsibility, I was all of a sudden now responsible for the Rockwell. I think it was Rockwell by that time. North American name had been changed. So I was responsible for the Rockwell contract as well as all the subcontractors, as well as the Lunar Module. But I had very good people within the program office working on the CSM, and I don't think we missed a lick, because those people, most of them had been there through almost the entire program, as a matter of fact. They were doing their thing and it was going along quite smoothly. So it really was not a big perturbation in program management at all."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Apollo 17 was the last mission. Can you share with us your memories of Apollo 17?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:137", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 11.531730000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, since I was program manager at the time, I'd have to say it was the longest mission we ever flew, the longest stay time on the Moon, the longest time out of the Lunar Module on the surface of any mission. More return mass of lunar soil, rocks than any other mission. So it was quite successful. I think, remarkably, by just the period from Apollo 11 to 17, the number of anomalies that we had, the number of problems that we were working during the mission were very, very, very few. We just did not have any significant problem the whole mission. As the program manager, you always worry about what's going to happen next, but the other shoe never dropped, it was just a very smooth mission, had a good crew.\\n\\n I think the biggest thing, probably, was the emotional letdown after the mission was over, realizing that we were through, no more flights. Several of us were quite unhappy about that, because we had three more Saturn V launch vehicles, we had two more LMs that were basically built. They had been stopped earlier when the decision was made not to fly past 17, but they could have easily made the schedule to fly.\\n\\n We had Command Service Modules that could have been there easily. We had the crew in place, not just the flight crew, but we had all the ground people that it takes to build checkout and operate the equipment in place. We felt there was plenty to be gained with two or three more flights from a scientific point of view. It was a big emotional letdown after 17 was over, but the mission itself was by far the least notable mission as far as trouble of the whole program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yet the most successful in terms of scientific."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, by far."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And notable because it had the first astronaut scientist on it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's another story, yes. [Laughter] I won't get into that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Anything else that you would like to talk about in reference to Apollo that maybe we didn't give enough time or didn't bring up yet?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:139", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 9.479700000000001, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, by far."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And notable because it had the first astronaut scientist on it."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That's another story, yes. [Laughter] I won't get into that one."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay. Anything else that you would like to talk about in reference to Apollo that maybe we didn't give enough time or didn't bring up yet?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don't think so. You know, you could talk for days, but I think your questions have covered quite well, really, the major points as we went through. We didn't spend very much time talking about the activity between Apollo 13 and 14."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We can go over that if you'd like."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00419:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, yes, I thought we would. At that time we had—NASA, the big \"we,\" NASA—largely under the direction of Dr. [George E.] Mueller had laid out a program which had the Space Station, the Shuttle, an orbiter transfer vehicle, all aimed at and being able to make quite routine trips to the Moon. Initially, they were going to do the Space Station, and, of course, they did Skylab, which was our first cut at a space station, but it was not permanent. Then during that time period they decided it would probably be better to build the Shuttle, the Space Transportation System, and use it then to help get the permanent station in place. The time scale they had laid out for this was, I think, to have the station in place by the late seventies, early eighties. Of course, we're just now starting to put the thing up, so it stretched out a lot.\\n\\n Yes, I think we'll go back. I think there are things on the Moon, there's a lot more science to be obtained. But I think operationally as we go further out than the Moon, the idea of having the Moon as a way point when we really get serious about it, I think that's going to be a very big advantage."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think this is probably a good ending point."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We've been talking for about two hours."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Okay. Good enough."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thank you for talking with us."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00333:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 51.661006830000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And you didn't have up-link necessarily?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could do commands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you couldn't talk?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could talk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could or could not?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00333:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 7, "return_to_go": 57.401118700000005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could do commands."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you couldn't talk?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could talk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could or could not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could. That's what the Capcom did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you could not communicate among the sites except by teletype?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00333:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 12, "return_to_go": 56.001243, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could talk."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You could or could not?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We could. That's what the Capcom did."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "But you could not communicate among the sites except by teletype?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Except by a teletype. But you could hear the other guys talk. We did that. A lot of times we would make damn sure that we were hearing the other guys talk. In fact, that was one thing that kind of give Kraft the idea of doing something different. He could actually hear on the old conference loop. We'd put the air-to-ground on the conference loop and nobody better get on it when we was doing a pass. I don't care what they did. If you wanted to get to the site, you went autowire. Nobody else ever did that. No other person. Right today, if you look at what's going on the Mir, the Mir doesn't have but very small voice. We've always done it. We've always had communication with the ground. That, I think, is a really positive thing, it really is, because we always looked at it and we always were part of it. The people who were actually flying a mission were part of what the crew was doing. We knew exactly all the things and we had a system. When you think about it, we did that. It was pretty tough to do in those days with the Communists and the blocs. We also had a Landing and Recovery Division that would go in any country to go get them, too, no matter where they went. So from that standpoint, we had a really good thing to work from. I was very proud of it, trying to make it work. When I was at Zanzibar, the Ac Aid didn't work. We used to call it an Ac Aid because it never worked."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What is that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00096:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 51, "return_to_go": 157.08500284078053, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Ten thousand will be like hog heaven."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. You were about the same age."}, {"role": "user", "content": "After I did my Army tour, the branch chief was now a guy named Jim [James C.] McPherson. He hired me back, and he gave me a GS-9. I went to work, and this was 1967. I came back, and I bought a house on the GI Bill in Clear Lake City, Camino South, the same house I’m still in. It was the third house built in Camino South. You can sit in our front yard, and you could see the Clear Lake Movie Theater, which is now a Chinese restaurant behind a Valero."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Is that the 888 Bistro?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it’s no longer a Chinese restaurant, it’s vacant now. But there’s a two-story building right across from the Firestone store."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, the Oriental Gourmet I think is what it used to be."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00096:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 86.56233686366149, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I computed the state vector to the Sun and Moon, which wasn’t used. My star charts weren’t used, they were used for ductwork. But the crew survived. We got them back.\\n\\n I guess the flights 14, 15, and 16 were fairly uneventful for me. Everything worked fine. We had no problems. I remember watching John [W.] Young kick a million-dollar experiment’s wires loose. They set up this box on the Moon. He’s walking around. He pulls out a bunch of little wires and destroyed it. I remember him saying, “Oops.”\\n\\n There’s another story I guess I can tell. If you want to edit it out later you can."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s your call."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ll say it. We can decide."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Young and Charlie [Charles M.] Duke were in the LM, and they did about three different EVAs, extravehicular walks, on the Moon. They went out and did a walk, came back, got in, repressurized, then they had a sleep cycle.\\n\\n One night they were in the LM. They had repressurized and taken their suits off. The normal downlink that’s supposed to be suppressed got out to the press. I have a copy of it at home. John Young is talking to Charlie Duke and he says, “Charlie, I got the farts again. It’s that goddamn Gatorade.” They were worried about the crew getting low on potassium, so in the suits they had a little tube from the backpack, and they had Gatorade. If they got thirsty they would reach over and suck on this tube and get Gatorade. Young was convinced that that was causing his gas problems. Charlie didn’t say much. He said, “Yes, okay.” That’s my Apollo 16 story that I remember. I wasn’t much involved with [it]. I don’t know if you want the Internet to have the word fart on it or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no, that’s perfectly fine, if you’re fine with it, I think it’s okay."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00096:33", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 96.1803742929572, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’ll say it. We can decide."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Young and Charlie [Charles M.] Duke were in the LM, and they did about three different EVAs, extravehicular walks, on the Moon. They went out and did a walk, came back, got in, repressurized, then they had a sleep cycle.\\n\\n One night they were in the LM. They had repressurized and taken their suits off. The normal downlink that’s supposed to be suppressed got out to the press. I have a copy of it at home. John Young is talking to Charlie Duke and he says, “Charlie, I got the farts again. It’s that goddamn Gatorade.” They were worried about the crew getting low on potassium, so in the suits they had a little tube from the backpack, and they had Gatorade. If they got thirsty they would reach over and suck on this tube and get Gatorade. Young was convinced that that was causing his gas problems. Charlie didn’t say much. He said, “Yes, okay.” That’s my Apollo 16 story that I remember. I wasn’t much involved with [it]. I don’t know if you want the Internet to have the word fart on it or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no, that’s perfectly fine, if you’re fine with it, I think it’s okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of people know that story, so it won’t be disputed. There’s a teletype downlink that people have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I was going to say that sounded familiar."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00096:35", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 106.86708254773022, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "John Young and Charlie [Charles M.] Duke were in the LM, and they did about three different EVAs, extravehicular walks, on the Moon. They went out and did a walk, came back, got in, repressurized, then they had a sleep cycle.\\n\\n One night they were in the LM. They had repressurized and taken their suits off. The normal downlink that’s supposed to be suppressed got out to the press. I have a copy of it at home. John Young is talking to Charlie Duke and he says, “Charlie, I got the farts again. It’s that goddamn Gatorade.” They were worried about the crew getting low on potassium, so in the suits they had a little tube from the backpack, and they had Gatorade. If they got thirsty they would reach over and suck on this tube and get Gatorade. Young was convinced that that was causing his gas problems. Charlie didn’t say much. He said, “Yes, okay.” That’s my Apollo 16 story that I remember. I wasn’t much involved with [it]. I don’t know if you want the Internet to have the word fart on it or not."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, no, that’s perfectly fine, if you’re fine with it, I think it’s okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of people know that story, so it won’t be disputed. There’s a teletype downlink that people have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I was going to say that sounded familiar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve probably heard that before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have. I think somebody told me it was orange juice, some other people."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00096:37", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 34, "return_to_go": 113.1856472752558, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "A lot of people know that story, so it won’t be disputed. There’s a teletype downlink that people have."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, I was going to say that sounded familiar."}, {"role": "user", "content": "You’ve probably heard that before."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I have. I think somebody told me it was orange juice, some other people."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It could have been. He may not have said Gatorade. It was something. It was a mixture. It was like that. It was pumped up with potassium, a fruit drink. Apollo went fine. I don’t remember anything happening after we got to going. I do remember Bill [Howard W.] Tindall who was in charge of the software. We used to have these software control boards, and every mission we would go, “We got to change this, we got to change that.”\\n\\n The computers were hardwired. They were called ropes. They actually hired women who had small fingers. They worked at Raytheon, and they were former seamstresses. They sewed for a living, and they got the job. They called it weaving. They would take a wire and connect it at two points in this battery of network. To change the software you had to move those wires around. Like on Apollo 11—another story I didn’t tell about 12.\\n\\n After Apollo 11, we thought we had a better knowledge of the lunar gravity model, so we put together a change to go change the gravity model in the Command and Lunar Module. I remember that was between July and November we did it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes. Short time."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00096:63", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 2.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a woman named Sissy Phillips. Her name was Laura Phillips. There was a woman named Sue Shafer. She could beat me in tennis. I thought I was a good tennis player and she just beat me. She was good. Sandra Yates. This was 1963. Cathy Osgood was not in the Math Physics Branch. She was down the hall in the Mission Planning Division. She was an engineer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Her name I’ve heard quite a bit, and we’ve interviewed her."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She’s still alive. You could probably interview her. She’s from Langley. She started at Langley."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s actually working on a book. She’s working on a book, she told me."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She’s working on a book."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s working on a book, yes."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00096:67", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "She’s working on a book."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "She’s working on a book, yes."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a lot of respect for a lot of the women I know that—when I was able to hire, the times that I was able to hire, we could only hire co-ops, and you could only hire straight A co-ops. There were so few positions. I hired a woman from Virginia Tech. … [Her name was Michelle Monk. One of my best engineers. She is still with NASA at Langley. She went home to be near her parents.]\\n\\n I had 25 people, and 4 of them were female. Some of the old guys never got it. I remember one time. We had a meeting that was held before every Shuttle flight called the aerodynamics panel. All the aero guys—those are the guys that do the wind tunnel testing and they worry about the Shuttle when it’s in the atmosphere, when it’s flying. During launch there’s a concern about you can’t go too fast too soon because you’ll break things.\\n\\n If you’ve ever heard Shuttle launch tapes, they have a thing called throttle up. Challenger [STS-51L] was right after throttle up that they blew up. They throttled back automatically to get through the thick atmosphere. When they get to the thin atmosphere they throttle back up. These guys do all that, they know when to do that.\\n\\n This old guy hadn’t gone to an aerodynamics panel in months and years, he was a manager then. He decided one day to go back, and he gets in there. His engineer told me this story. He gets in there and he says, “Why are there so many secretaries here?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, ouch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were women engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, things had changed."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00096:69", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I had a lot of respect for a lot of the women I know that—when I was able to hire, the times that I was able to hire, we could only hire co-ops, and you could only hire straight A co-ops. There were so few positions. I hired a woman from Virginia Tech. … [Her name was Michelle Monk. One of my best engineers. She is still with NASA at Langley. She went home to be near her parents.]\\n\\n I had 25 people, and 4 of them were female. Some of the old guys never got it. I remember one time. We had a meeting that was held before every Shuttle flight called the aerodynamics panel. All the aero guys—those are the guys that do the wind tunnel testing and they worry about the Shuttle when it’s in the atmosphere, when it’s flying. During launch there’s a concern about you can’t go too fast too soon because you’ll break things.\\n\\n If you’ve ever heard Shuttle launch tapes, they have a thing called throttle up. Challenger [STS-51L] was right after throttle up that they blew up. They throttled back automatically to get through the thick atmosphere. When they get to the thin atmosphere they throttle back up. These guys do all that, they know when to do that.\\n\\n This old guy hadn’t gone to an aerodynamics panel in months and years, he was a manager then. He decided one day to go back, and he gets in there. His engineer told me this story. He gets in there and he says, “Why are there so many secretaries here?”"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, ouch."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were women engineers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Right, things had changed."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Who were doing aerodynamic work. He thought there’s a lot of secretaries here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oops. I think this might be a good place for us to stop. There’s more Apollo questions that I have for you. But as long as you have time to come by and do some more sessions."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00740:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.95657429931, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I sure did, it was executive payroll job. It was a little odd in that in just a few years I went from an MTS-5 to a program manager."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you were working for Mr. Glaysher, part of his work was the logistics for the spares. Could you talk more about the importance of NASA having those spares available for the orbiter?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "With four vehicles, it was obvious we were going to need a logistics support system. The ideal way to do it is when the prime contractor is building parts for the vehicle, make one more and you get a good price. But if you miss the closedown of the production line by six months, you will pay for that startup cost and the time lost. So ideally when the vehicle is being designed, logistics will have an opportunity and the money to order those spare items that they believe they will need. Not everything is needed for spares, because some companies make products that are very similar and you just could qualify the similar part.\\n\\n For NASA and for the contractor it was all a new game. We got a really good program director of logistics, came from Autonetics [division of North American Aviation]. Jack Cassidy was his name. In fact Jack knows a lot about logistics and how to run a logistics program, so he hired in the right guys and the logistics department went from one or two people to hundreds. Later on, the responsibility for that work was transferred from Downey to Kennedy Space Center, which is the right place for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved under the operations as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Glaysher told me, “I really want to spend my time on the operations side, but the logistics contract takes too much of my time to really keep abreast of everything on ops [operations], so I want you to become ‘Mr. Logistics.’ You spend 80 percent of your time on logistics and 20 percent of the time on the Shuttle.” It worked out fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What challenges did you have in that position?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00740:29", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.396193665899997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "With four vehicles, it was obvious we were going to need a logistics support system. The ideal way to do it is when the prime contractor is building parts for the vehicle, make one more and you get a good price. But if you miss the closedown of the production line by six months, you will pay for that startup cost and the time lost. So ideally when the vehicle is being designed, logistics will have an opportunity and the money to order those spare items that they believe they will need. Not everything is needed for spares, because some companies make products that are very similar and you just could qualify the similar part.\\n\\n For NASA and for the contractor it was all a new game. We got a really good program director of logistics, came from Autonetics [division of North American Aviation]. Jack Cassidy was his name. In fact Jack knows a lot about logistics and how to run a logistics program, so he hired in the right guys and the logistics department went from one or two people to hundreds. Later on, the responsibility for that work was transferred from Downey to Kennedy Space Center, which is the right place for it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you involved under the operations as well?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Glaysher told me, “I really want to spend my time on the operations side, but the logistics contract takes too much of my time to really keep abreast of everything on ops [operations], so I want you to become ‘Mr. Logistics.’ You spend 80 percent of your time on logistics and 20 percent of the time on the Shuttle.” It worked out fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What challenges did you have in that position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The logistics—mostly spares, spare units, and repair capability, repair depots—they all become an integral part of the program because they support each other. You can see the logic of being involved when the production line is still running, because you get a good price and a good delivery schedule. Like many other things, NASA doesn’t have enough money for everything it wants. The thing that seemed to suffer a lot was the logistics program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a contractor, did you make suggestions to NASA for what parts they needed?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00740:31", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 27.106881850999997, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Bob Glaysher told me, “I really want to spend my time on the operations side, but the logistics contract takes too much of my time to really keep abreast of everything on ops [operations], so I want you to become ‘Mr. Logistics.’ You spend 80 percent of your time on logistics and 20 percent of the time on the Shuttle.” It worked out fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What challenges did you have in that position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The logistics—mostly spares, spare units, and repair capability, repair depots—they all become an integral part of the program because they support each other. You can see the logic of being involved when the production line is still running, because you get a good price and a good delivery schedule. Like many other things, NASA doesn’t have enough money for everything it wants. The thing that seemed to suffer a lot was the logistics program."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As a contractor, did you make suggestions to NASA for what parts they needed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They had a logistics board, and we had to convince them or their underlings when we needed to buy “five of those widgets.” “What do you mean? These things are very reliable, they’re not going to fail.” They’d get into discussions like that. There was always pressure on to keep the cost down, and you could do that if you could look ahead far enough and make some orders of equipment where the production line was going to be shutting down in the foreseeable future, and that saved money."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were promoted to the position of orbiter chief engineer. How did your job change and what were your responsibilities?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00740:43", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.011, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "This was published in ’93, and I retired in ’94. Ken [Kenneth E.] Lengner [coauthor] was a project engineer in the project office, and he had these ideas about different ways to process the elements."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It talked about utilizing the database hazard reports to come up with different ways to do processing, about accepted risk and how to reduce operations cost."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Before the vehicle actually got to the Cape the first time, they had their flow planned for the way they were going to fix all the problems on the vehicle. They’re going to use spares, take something off and repair it, [or] they’re going to take something off another vehicle and “cannibalize.” He had some thoughts on that and he wanted to have a technical publication. The AIAA accepted that, and he went to the conference and presented the paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It also said that you participated in the Columbia [STS-107] accident investigation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a Columbia Accident Investigation Board. They had a dozen top level engineers and scientists from around the country. They were the official group. Of course each one of those men or women needed some support, so that’s the part of the committee I was on.\\n\\n SECHRIST: You were called into the MSR [Mission Support Room] within hours of the incident, and then other things led to this position.\n\nYes. As chief engineer you just had to be prepared to do anything anytime."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you also involved with the follow-up after the Challenger [STS 51-L accident] in ’86?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00740:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 17.79, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Before the vehicle actually got to the Cape the first time, they had their flow planned for the way they were going to fix all the problems on the vehicle. They’re going to use spares, take something off and repair it, [or] they’re going to take something off another vehicle and “cannibalize.” He had some thoughts on that and he wanted to have a technical publication. The AIAA accepted that, and he went to the conference and presented the paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It also said that you participated in the Columbia [STS-107] accident investigation."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a Columbia Accident Investigation Board. They had a dozen top level engineers and scientists from around the country. They were the official group. Of course each one of those men or women needed some support, so that’s the part of the committee I was on.\\n\\n SECHRIST: You were called into the MSR [Mission Support Room] within hours of the incident, and then other things led to this position.\n\nYes. As chief engineer you just had to be prepared to do anything anytime."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you also involved with the follow-up after the Challenger [STS 51-L accident] in ’86?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For any major changes I was, but I can’t remember if there were any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Briefly you mentioned that you had worked on the external tank integration before they pulled you over to do the TPS."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00740:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 13.1, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a Columbia Accident Investigation Board. They had a dozen top level engineers and scientists from around the country. They were the official group. Of course each one of those men or women needed some support, so that’s the part of the committee I was on.\\n\\n SECHRIST: You were called into the MSR [Mission Support Room] within hours of the incident, and then other things led to this position.\n\nYes. As chief engineer you just had to be prepared to do anything anytime."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you also involved with the follow-up after the Challenger [STS 51-L accident] in ’86?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "For any major changes I was, but I can’t remember if there were any."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Briefly you mentioned that you had worked on the external tank integration before they pulled you over to do the TPS."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That was a contract with Rockwell to build this vehicle to go into space. It had two pieces coming from Thiokol in Utah, the boosters. The external tank came from [NASA] Michoud [Assembly Facility], [New Orleans] Louisiana. They have electrical interfaces and several joints. You think, “Well, just put a bolt in there.” But you get some close tolerance design problems in those joints. You have to have a specification to define where this major interface will be, how is it going to be cinched up, and for how long will it be locked together.\\n\\n All those things are handled by an integration contract. These vehicle elements are going to be integrated into the total Shuttle system. That was done at Rockwell here at Downey. They had the specifications in the form of drawings that would define what this interface looks like. Most of them required special bolts that could be sheared off when you no longer want to keep the vehicles together. I worked for a couple months maybe on the integration contract for the external tank. That wasn’t bad, because I got to go to New Orleans [Louisiana] on my trips."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did your work bring you to Houston to the Johnson Space Center as well?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 44.26800035544034, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Minnesota. We lived in Minneapolis for the most part, but I spent a lot of time on my grandparents farm however in the summers."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Really? Whereabouts?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "In southern Minnesota, just outside a little town called Elysian, which is not too far from Mankato."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you go to school in Minnesota?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, University ofMinnesota."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you end up in Washington?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 8, "return_to_go": 49.18666706160038, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "In southern Minnesota, just outside a little town called Elysian, which is not too far from Mankato."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you go to school in Minnesota?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, University ofMinnesota."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you end up in Washington?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took the Civil Service Exam. (Laughs) Looking for something to do before I got drafted and I was offered the job here. I had no idea what an archivist was at the time, but the job made use of my history degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it in U.S. istory?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 45.7629634017782, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yeah, University ofMinnesota."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you end up in Washington?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took the Civil Service Exam. (Laughs) Looking for something to do before I got drafted and I was offered the job here. I had no idea what an archivist was at the time, but the job made use of my history degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it in U.S. istory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I wasn't particularly keen on teaching but that was probably what I would have gone into. This was a stop gap job. I came to DC in October of'57 and then was drafted in April of '58. I left during a horrible snow storm on a bus that was probably the last one to get through the Pennsylvania turnpike before they shut it down. The snow was just terrible. I don't know ifyou were here at the time but we had a few years there in the late 50's and early 60's that we really had bad weather and that was one ofthem. We had had severaJ-big snow falls that winter while I was here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you headed on the bus?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:7", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 47.51440377975356, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I took the Civil Service Exam. (Laughs) Looking for something to do before I got drafted and I was offered the job here. I had no idea what an archivist was at the time, but the job made use of my history degree."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was it in U.S. istory?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I wasn't particularly keen on teaching but that was probably what I would have gone into. This was a stop gap job. I came to DC in October of'57 and then was drafted in April of '58. I left during a horrible snow storm on a bus that was probably the last one to get through the Pennsylvania turnpike before they shut it down. The snow was just terrible. I don't know ifyou were here at the time but we had a few years there in the late 50's and early 60's that we really had bad weather and that was one ofthem. We had had severaJ-big snow falls that winter while I was here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you headed on the bus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back to Minneapolis were I was inducted into the army. I was in the army for two years, and I was discharged in '61. Since I had an easy assignment I extended for a third year to get rid ofthe active reserve obligation. Then I came back here in '61."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the first thing you did when you got here? Or, I didn't ask you what they had you doing before you got in the Army."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:9", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 46.12711531083728, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I wasn't particularly keen on teaching but that was probably what I would have gone into. This was a stop gap job. I came to DC in October of'57 and then was drafted in April of '58. I left during a horrible snow storm on a bus that was probably the last one to get through the Pennsylvania turnpike before they shut it down. The snow was just terrible. I don't know ifyou were here at the time but we had a few years there in the late 50's and early 60's that we really had bad weather and that was one ofthem. We had had severaJ-big snow falls that winter while I was here."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where were you headed on the bus?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back to Minneapolis were I was inducted into the army. I was in the army for two years, and I was discharged in '61. Since I had an easy assignment I extended for a third year to get rid ofthe active reserve obligation. Then I came back here in '61."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the first thing you did when you got here? Or, I didn't ask you what they had you doing before you got in the Army."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I came to the National Archives in '57 I was assigned to the natural resources branch. The branch chief was Jane Smith. My first job was supervising the boxing ofrecords from the Bureau ofMines, making box lists, and things like that. Evidently I made enough of an impression that they did want me to return after I got out of the army. Of course they were obligated to take me back but Richard Maxwell, the assistant branch chief, let me know they really wanted me back. I might have stayed in Minneapolis ifl had found a job there, but since I had a pretty good job waiting for me in DC I decided to return even though the salary wasn't much. It was under $4000 a year at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that what grade was that?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:11", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 50.141239234263644, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Back to Minneapolis were I was inducted into the army. I was in the army for two years, and I was discharged in '61. Since I had an easy assignment I extended for a third year to get rid ofthe active reserve obligation. Then I came back here in '61."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And what was the first thing you did when you got here? Or, I didn't ask you what they had you doing before you got in the Army."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I came to the National Archives in '57 I was assigned to the natural resources branch. The branch chief was Jane Smith. My first job was supervising the boxing ofrecords from the Bureau ofMines, making box lists, and things like that. Evidently I made enough of an impression that they did want me to return after I got out of the army. Of course they were obligated to take me back but Richard Maxwell, the assistant branch chief, let me know they really wanted me back. I might have stayed in Minneapolis ifl had found a job there, but since I had a pretty good job waiting for me in DC I decided to return even though the salary wasn't much. It was under $4000 a year at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that what grade was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came in as an entry level archivist, either grade three or four, I can't remember which. I do remember that getting grade 5 a big deal and I had to do a draft inventory ofthe Bureau of Mines records to qualify for it. I think grade 7 was the journeyman grade and if you got a nine you pretty much had it made. Later there was a major shift in the grade levels and eleven became the journeyman grade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wondered about that. So when you came back up you went back to the same unit?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 52.37915470473738, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When I came to the National Archives in '57 I was assigned to the natural resources branch. The branch chief was Jane Smith. My first job was supervising the boxing ofrecords from the Bureau ofMines, making box lists, and things like that. Evidently I made enough of an impression that they did want me to return after I got out of the army. Of course they were obligated to take me back but Richard Maxwell, the assistant branch chief, let me know they really wanted me back. I might have stayed in Minneapolis ifl had found a job there, but since I had a pretty good job waiting for me in DC I decided to return even though the salary wasn't much. It was under $4000 a year at that time."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "And that what grade was that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came in as an entry level archivist, either grade three or four, I can't remember which. I do remember that getting grade 5 a big deal and I had to do a draft inventory ofthe Bureau of Mines records to qualify for it. I think grade 7 was the journeyman grade and if you got a nine you pretty much had it made. Later there was a major shift in the grade levels and eleven became the journeyman grade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wondered about that. So when you came back up you went back to the same unit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Until I went to the editorial office on a temporary detail in late 1987 or early 1988 (I can't remember exactly when), I had worked with the same group ofrecords, doing reference and project work with the Interior Department and New Deal records."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What-were your initial impressions ofthe archives were when you first got here?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 37, "return_to_go": 58.19906078304153, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I came in as an entry level archivist, either grade three or four, I can't remember which. I do remember that getting grade 5 a big deal and I had to do a draft inventory ofthe Bureau of Mines records to qualify for it. I think grade 7 was the journeyman grade and if you got a nine you pretty much had it made. Later there was a major shift in the grade levels and eleven became the journeyman grade."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wondered about that. So when you came back up you went back to the same unit?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Until I went to the editorial office on a temporary detail in late 1987 or early 1988 (I can't remember exactly when), I had worked with the same group ofrecords, doing reference and project work with the Interior Department and New Deal records."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What-were your initial impressions ofthe archives were when you first got here?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They were fine."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to say to you, I was looking at your Trans-Mississippi West Guide and that is just amazing to me. You've compiled volumes describing records ofthe Interior, Agriculture, State and Justice departments. How long did it take you to do that?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:25", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 20.735424449256595, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well, when I worked in reference I had the reputation, such as it is, of being an expert on the records oflndian Affairs. While I enjoyed working with those records I really liked working with the records ofthe Work Projects Administration. Have you ever worked with them?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "A little bit."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The WP A did so many things that no matter how outlandish a researcher's request sounded, you could never dismiss it because chances are the WP A did it. The WP A microfilm records were awful to work with, but I really had fun working with paper records. While I'm on the subject ofthe WPA records I might has well mention a very troubling matter. In recent years staff members have frequently been assigned to perform holdings maintenance or other project records they don't know. The reference staff had no supervisory control over these people and were not consulted about the work they were doing. The WP A cultural project records were well covered by good finding aids, but an individual from the Still Pictures unit began working on the records, rearranging and reboxing them with no regard to the existing finding aids and without consulting with the reference staff. This caused no end oftrouble for the reference people who had to retrieve them for reference requests. A similar problem occurred with the townsite records ofthe Bureau of Land Management. The agency had used a complicate filing system but a finding aid giving the box number for each file existed. Holdings maintenance people repacked and reboxed nearly 100 boxes with no regard for the finding aid, leaving halfthe finding aid virtually worthless and creating a major retrieval problem for an already overworked reference staff. As a result, when I dexcribed the records for the GLO guide I had to annotate the finding aid with the revised box numbers for the contents ofthose boxes. In many such instances the lack of staff communication and supervision has been a real problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you a similar question. What were some of the challenges that you faced in your work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How many ofthese interviews have you conducted?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About a halfa dozen"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:27", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 21.928249388062884, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The WP A did so many things that no matter how outlandish a researcher's request sounded, you could never dismiss it because chances are the WP A did it. The WP A microfilm records were awful to work with, but I really had fun working with paper records. While I'm on the subject ofthe WPA records I might has well mention a very troubling matter. In recent years staff members have frequently been assigned to perform holdings maintenance or other project records they don't know. The reference staff had no supervisory control over these people and were not consulted about the work they were doing. The WP A cultural project records were well covered by good finding aids, but an individual from the Still Pictures unit began working on the records, rearranging and reboxing them with no regard to the existing finding aids and without consulting with the reference staff. This caused no end oftrouble for the reference people who had to retrieve them for reference requests. A similar problem occurred with the townsite records ofthe Bureau of Land Management. The agency had used a complicate filing system but a finding aid giving the box number for each file existed. Holdings maintenance people repacked and reboxed nearly 100 boxes with no regard for the finding aid, leaving halfthe finding aid virtually worthless and creating a major retrieval problem for an already overworked reference staff. As a result, when I dexcribed the records for the GLO guide I had to annotate the finding aid with the revised box numbers for the contents ofthose boxes. In many such instances the lack of staff communication and supervision has been a real problem."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was going to ask you a similar question. What were some of the challenges that you faced in your work?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "How many ofthese interviews have you conducted?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "About a halfa dozen"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Has anyone complained about NARS Al?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Not that I recall."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:41", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 22.950990040000008, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I never heard that but, he worked in a completely different area and with sensitive records. We got a lot ofstudents and historians writing on Indian matters. And the one thing about the Indian researchers is when they finish working on one topic they went on to another one in the same field. The New Deal researchers were different. Usually they researched one topic and when they finished that they wouldn't be back again. They wouldn't pursue anything else in that area. But I got to know some ofthe Indian researchers quite well because they were all repeats."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, Taylor was working with intelligence records."}, {"role": "user", "content": "That may be why he had few American researchers. They probably knew the problems involved whereas the foreigners didn't. A lot ofEuropeans are interested in Indians and we corresponded with them. We had this one fellow who wrote all the time, asking for a few documents each time. We were essentially doing his research for him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "We still have people like that, a German in particular."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it's the same one. At one point we had cut him off. A year or so later, he started writing again. By then we had a different branch chief; I told him that the guy was nothing by a nuisance and he would be driving us crazy again with his incessant requests, but he insisted we had to do the research and reply. I pointed out that ifwe refused the fellow couldn't go to his congressman and complain, but to no avail. We wouldn't even do such long term research for a tax payer, but because he was European we had to comply. Ifwe had just held the line .. .it's all well and good to do it for a few things, but you can't do it indefinitely. Even taxpayers would have eventually been told to come in and do the research themselves. I guess we're still answering him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "This researcher also said he thought the Archives intentionally withheld information about the records."}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:47", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 24.884760000000004, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Well that is interesting. I know that the reference people are oftwo minds about the dissemination of a lot ofinformation about the records because there never has been a large enough staff to handle all the requests that result. Any time you publicize something that people are interested in you're going to get requests. I was doing reference when the first revision ofthe guide to genealogical records was done and we were not too happy because we already had all the genie requests we could handle. Tape Side 2\n\nNow I've been on both sides of the issue. When the latest revision of the genie guide was made I was one ofthe people requesting information from the reference staff. I was doing the same thing that no one was happy about it in the first phase. In fact I rewrote the section on the American Indians. Mary Francis Ronan who handles the reference on Indian records was happy to have me do it even though I made it much more detailed that it was before. Of course, the Master Location Register which we now have makes it much easier to locate the various series so the impact on the reference staff is not as great as it once was. At any rate, Mary Frances seems to be happy with the end result. The staff generally is happy to have the holdings publicized but at the same time when the public makes inquires we frequently have to tell them the material is here, but you have to come and do the research."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we can't even copy it for them without payment."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the National Archives is less of a service organization now than it used to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was wondering about the appraisal function. When did that kick in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was never really involved with that much although as assistant branch chief! did review some draft appraisal schedules. I remember one that came through that covered the education records of the Bureau oflndian Affairs. All the records listed as permanent were procedural issuances and similar items. Not one correspondence series was deemed worthy ofpreservation yet the correspondence provided the information about how programs were working. I suggested that the appraisers take another look."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do much with the agencies?"}]}
{"block_id": "assembly-oral-histories-00013:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 24.3164, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, the National Archives is less of a service organization now than it used to be."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was wondering about the appraisal function. When did that kick in?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was never really involved with that much although as assistant branch chief! did review some draft appraisal schedules. I remember one that came through that covered the education records of the Bureau oflndian Affairs. All the records listed as permanent were procedural issuances and similar items. Not one correspondence series was deemed worthy ofpreservation yet the correspondence provided the information about how programs were working. I suggested that the appraisers take another look."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you do much with the agencies?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we first came we had a lot interaction with both the Bureau Land Management and the Bureau oflndian Affairs. We loaned records to them on a regular basis. We had one technician who did nothing but handle loans to the BLM. Eventually the Archives put an end to the practice and the bureau employees had to come to the archives an do their own research. Law clerks from the Department of Justice were regulars doing research for Indian law suits. No matter how often they came they always put off the research until the last minute and they always had to have copies made immediately because they were going to court within a matter of days. That was pretty maddening. They had one researcher who always used microfilm inour Indian research room and he never did learn how to load the microfilm-reader. Someone always had to assist him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I know what you mean. I could add some stories myself. Do you remember any organization issues that were prominent or has it always been the same pretty much ... we are always behind?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:1", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 44.75814995285096, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My pleasure."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was given your name by someone in Knowledge Management. They said you were the historian of the LRL [Lunar Receiving Laboratory], so I thought we had to interview you and get some of that history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was curious where you came up with my name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They said you were retiring so I said, “We should interview her.” You graduated from college in 1969. Did you follow the space program at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, I was in chemistry. I did give some thought as to how I got interested in that. I was at the [University of Texas at Austin] Marine Science [Institute] Lab in Port Aransas on July 20, 1969. We students were out on the deck at the professor’s beach house looking at the full Moon and waiting for the fuzzy television images of astronauts stepping onto the Moon’s surface. Most people my age remember exactly where they were when that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was certainly a momentous occasion that had never happened before, so I can imagine it was a big deal."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:3", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 43.06461105872329, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was curious where you came up with my name."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "They said you were retiring so I said, “We should interview her.” You graduated from college in 1969. Did you follow the space program at all?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, I was in chemistry. I did give some thought as to how I got interested in that. I was at the [University of Texas at Austin] Marine Science [Institute] Lab in Port Aransas on July 20, 1969. We students were out on the deck at the professor’s beach house looking at the full Moon and waiting for the fuzzy television images of astronauts stepping onto the Moon’s surface. Most people my age remember exactly where they were when that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was certainly a momentous occasion that had never happened before, so I can imagine it was a big deal."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got more interested in the space program when I applied for a job here at JSC back in 1974. I was working for the Texas Water Quality Board in the EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] Lab. We sampled and analyzed water in the Houston Ship Channel and other places. One of the NASA contractors advertised a job opening for a chemist, so I just went home and poured a glass of wine and typed out something that said I was terrific. I got an interview, and I got hired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you see the advertisement? In the [Houston] Chronicle?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:5", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 47.84956784302587, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not really, I was in chemistry. I did give some thought as to how I got interested in that. I was at the [University of Texas at Austin] Marine Science [Institute] Lab in Port Aransas on July 20, 1969. We students were out on the deck at the professor’s beach house looking at the full Moon and waiting for the fuzzy television images of astronauts stepping onto the Moon’s surface. Most people my age remember exactly where they were when that happened."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It was certainly a momentous occasion that had never happened before, so I can imagine it was a big deal."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I got more interested in the space program when I applied for a job here at JSC back in 1974. I was working for the Texas Water Quality Board in the EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] Lab. We sampled and analyzed water in the Houston Ship Channel and other places. One of the NASA contractors advertised a job opening for a chemist, so I just went home and poured a glass of wine and typed out something that said I was terrific. I got an interview, and I got hired."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Where did you see the advertisement? In the [Houston] Chronicle?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It must have been in the Houston paper. I didn’t live on this side of town at the time, so that would have been the only place."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh yes, kind of a drive if you’re on the north side. What was your understanding of what you would be doing based on that newspaper advertisement?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:13", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 59.67012321753676, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly I’m a curious person. But I probably had the right background in that I was an analytical chemist, and my master’s project was age-dating rocks, which is what many scientists measure for Apollo rocks. They determine how old rocks are. Isotopers in general tend to be pretty picky about contamination, and I had that background.\\n\\n The other thing that’s played into my career here more recently is I did a little bit of marine science—it was marine geology—and that’s helpful in planetary protection issues. The Planetary Protection Office now convenes meetings of experts related to planetary protection issues. Participants in these meetings include people who analyze deep-sea cores or extremophiles in rocks way below the surface of the Earth. So my marine science experience has helped."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It wasn’t unusual for you to come in and know how to handle these type of things, and what you had to do to handle a sample?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was kind of natural. I knew some of the “customers” for curated Apollo samples. The same people that returned lunar samples were well-known in isotope geology, and I was familiar with their work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you know many of the people who were working out here when you accepted the position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I came in as a lower-level, hands-on sample processing person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there many other women working in the lab at that point or people of color?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:15", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 11, "return_to_go": 62.96680357504085, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, it was kind of natural. I knew some of the “customers” for curated Apollo samples. The same people that returned lunar samples were well-known in isotope geology, and I was familiar with their work."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you know many of the people who were working out here when you accepted the position?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I came in as a lower-level, hands-on sample processing person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there many other women working in the lab at that point or people of color?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a fair number of women. People of color worked in the lab. I personally didn’t detect any discrimination, but, in recent years colleagues have confided a few examples from those early days, the 1970s, of discrimination regarding raises and task assignments. I can think of one example of sexual harassment, but back then, most women just went out of their way to avoid this person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m just curious because we don’t have a lot of stats on how many people worked in what groups and how many people of color there were. You can’t really tell by someone’s name. How many women there were, you can normally tell that by name. It’s interesting to me how NASA has changed over the years. Always curious if there were a lot of women or minorities in groups, especially in the early ’70s."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:17", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 57.740892861156496, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, I came in as a lower-level, hands-on sample processing person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there many other women working in the lab at that point or people of color?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There was a fair number of women. People of color worked in the lab. I personally didn’t detect any discrimination, but, in recent years colleagues have confided a few examples from those early days, the 1970s, of discrimination regarding raises and task assignments. I can think of one example of sexual harassment, but back then, most women just went out of their way to avoid this person."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m just curious because we don’t have a lot of stats on how many people worked in what groups and how many people of color there were. You can’t really tell by someone’s name. How many women there were, you can normally tell that by name. It’s interesting to me how NASA has changed over the years. Always curious if there were a lot of women or minorities in groups, especially in the early ’70s."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If you were asking how many women were lunar sample investigators, that’s a different story. There were not very many. I can think of three from the early days. One was a petrologist named Odette [B.] James. I think she worked for the USGS [U.S. Geological Survey]. I’m aware of her because she served on some of the oversight committees. She’d be the only woman, except the secretary of the group, in the 1972 Lunar Sample Analysis Planning Team (LSAPT) picture. Carle [M.] Pieters has been doing remote sensing for a very long time from Brown [University, Providence, Rhode Island] and was active back then and well known. Ursula [B.] Marvin was active in meteorites. I’m not real sure she had lunar samples at the time, but the studies were similar and the science groups were intermingled. Composition of lunar sample investigators and resulting NASA advisory committees has changed a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure it has."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:21", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 66.34678131006974, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "If you were asking how many women were lunar sample investigators, that’s a different story. There were not very many. I can think of three from the early days. One was a petrologist named Odette [B.] James. I think she worked for the USGS [U.S. Geological Survey]. I’m aware of her because she served on some of the oversight committees. She’d be the only woman, except the secretary of the group, in the 1972 Lunar Sample Analysis Planning Team (LSAPT) picture. Carle [M.] Pieters has been doing remote sensing for a very long time from Brown [University, Providence, Rhode Island] and was active back then and well known. Ursula [B.] Marvin was active in meteorites. I’m not real sure she had lunar samples at the time, but the studies were similar and the science groups were intermingled. Composition of lunar sample investigators and resulting NASA advisory committees has changed a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure it has."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can remember being at a meeting—I couldn’t tell you when exactly, I think it was in New Mexico, maybe late ’90s, early 2000s—in the ladies’ room, and they were having a spirited discussion over some planetary science debate. I thought, “It wouldn’t have been this way 20 years earlier.” That was a milestone, having a discussion in the ladies’ room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine it was kind of lonely in there. Very few of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that’s not the onsite NASA folks. That’s really the people we interact with at mostly academic institutions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came here you started working in Building 31. The samples had already been moved over to Building 31, you weren’t working out at the LRL at the time?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:23", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 36, "return_to_go": 71.49642367785526, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I can remember being at a meeting—I couldn’t tell you when exactly, I think it was in New Mexico, maybe late ’90s, early 2000s—in the ladies’ room, and they were having a spirited discussion over some planetary science debate. I thought, “It wouldn’t have been this way 20 years earlier.” That was a milestone, having a discussion in the ladies’ room."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine it was kind of lonely in there. Very few of you."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But that’s not the onsite NASA folks. That’s really the people we interact with at mostly academic institutions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you came here you started working in Building 31. The samples had already been moved over to Building 31, you weren’t working out at the LRL at the time?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "That’s correct, I did not work in the LRL. Lunar samples were moved from Building 37 to Building 31 in 1973. All samples had been moved in by the time I got here in 1974, so the stories about the LRL were still alive. As you may know, there was quite a bit of tension between the biology groups and geology groups."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you talk about that?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:45", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 26.096553720278347, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Final test runs were conducted inside of a nitrogen glovebox used for testing. The extrusion and dissection hardware was thoroughly cleaned before being placed into a lunar sample glovebox. The extrusions required three people in the gloves and a reader for each step of the procedure. We needed to work well together to assemble the intricate pieces because helpers would be required to hold hardware in position with tweezers while fasteners were attached, etc. Our goal was to be as coordinated as a pit crew in the Indianapolis 500."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was reading your article about the Apollo 11 core. I thought it was interesting how they had opened part of the cores from 11, but then you went back and did some more work on it. Why was that the case? What did you learn that was different from when they looked at it in ’69 when you did it later?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Apollo 11 drives tube samples were the first cores that I dissected, in 1978. They had previously been opened in the Biological Preparations Laboratory as a requirement for biohazard testing. This was done in a temporary facility to acquire preliminary images and remove half of the core material under nitrogen. The remaining half cores, still in their original inner half tube, were stored until I dissected the remaining portions. I have forgotten what I wrote!"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It’s very specific, I know. I just thought it was fascinating. Your article was really interesting, about the mix-up of where these were, which one it was, and the boxes that they got put in. It was just a really interesting article. How they used aluminum foil to keep it in the core, and how it reshaped the core a little bit. I just read this, so that’s why I have a little bit more detail."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Send me back to research it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, it’s fine, I just wondered if that was something that stuck out in your memory. Were there differences between the cores that you looked at, between 11, 15, 16, and 17? Or were they all fairly similar in terms of what you were looking for?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:49", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 27.403152741084376, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Send me back to research it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, it’s fine, I just wondered if that was something that stuck out in your memory. Were there differences between the cores that you looked at, between 11, 15, 16, and 17? Or were they all fairly similar in terms of what you were looking for?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "They cores are expected to be different in composition and texture because they were taken in unique locations. The biggest difference from a dissection viewpoint is that the Apollo 11 cores were in two-cm diameter drive tubes that had already been opened and half the soil removed without detailed documentation. In one core, the soil was not confined and slid around a little inside the tube. In contrast, the remaining cores that I opened were in four-cm drive tubes, carefully extruded and documented in detail. The Apollo 15 core that I did was a double, samples 15010/15011. It was on the edge of Hadley Rille, which was a rocky basalt surface. Consequently the lower tube had a rock that big in the bottom [demonstrates], which pretty much would have had to rotate to get slipped in this way because it wouldn’t have gotten in crosswise.\\n\\n The reason I could spend three months digging through something at a very slow pace is that it was always a possibility there would be something new and exciting in the next scoopful. To sieve the particles and take a look at them in the microscope was a delight. For example there were beautiful glass beads of different colors, mostly green on 15. I did not do any 17, but that’s where the orange glass beads were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was curious about that one, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Apollo 16 core I dissected had more visible layering, the abundant white plagioclase contributed to greater color differences."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you are working through these cores, how are you keeping track of what it is you’re finding? You’re in the glove box so you’re obviously not taking out your hands every time to document and write. How did you keep track of what you found?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:51", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 30.44794749009375, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They cores are expected to be different in composition and texture because they were taken in unique locations. The biggest difference from a dissection viewpoint is that the Apollo 11 cores were in two-cm diameter drive tubes that had already been opened and half the soil removed without detailed documentation. In one core, the soil was not confined and slid around a little inside the tube. In contrast, the remaining cores that I opened were in four-cm drive tubes, carefully extruded and documented in detail. The Apollo 15 core that I did was a double, samples 15010/15011. It was on the edge of Hadley Rille, which was a rocky basalt surface. Consequently the lower tube had a rock that big in the bottom [demonstrates], which pretty much would have had to rotate to get slipped in this way because it wouldn’t have gotten in crosswise.\\n\\n The reason I could spend three months digging through something at a very slow pace is that it was always a possibility there would be something new and exciting in the next scoopful. To sieve the particles and take a look at them in the microscope was a delight. For example there were beautiful glass beads of different colors, mostly green on 15. I did not do any 17, but that’s where the orange glass beads were."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was curious about that one, too."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Apollo 16 core I dissected had more visible layering, the abundant white plagioclase contributed to greater color differences."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you are working through these cores, how are you keeping track of what it is you’re finding? You’re in the glove box so you’re obviously not taking out your hands every time to document and write. How did you keep track of what you found?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we took our hands out and wrote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you? Oh, okay."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:53", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 33.83105276677083, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The Apollo 16 core I dissected had more visible layering, the abundant white plagioclase contributed to greater color differences."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "As you are working through these cores, how are you keeping track of what it is you’re finding? You’re in the glove box so you’re obviously not taking out your hands every time to document and write. How did you keep track of what you found?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we took our hands out and wrote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you? Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they’re a little better at it these days. We have an upgraded experimental cabinet. We can take pictures, and of course it’s all electronic now. I don’t favor electronic note-taking because it’s like filling out the form. What you want to say never fits that form exactly. We did a lot of drawing of features we observed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That definitely added to the amount of time it took to go through the core."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:55", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 37.590058629745364, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, we took our hands out and wrote."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Did you? Oh, okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they’re a little better at it these days. We have an upgraded experimental cabinet. We can take pictures, and of course it’s all electronic now. I don’t favor electronic note-taking because it’s like filling out the form. What you want to say never fits that form exactly. We did a lot of drawing of features we observed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That definitely added to the amount of time it took to go through the core."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Besides, I liked looking at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other people that were working with you on those cores as you were going through? Or that was your project for those months?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:57", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 38.43339847749485, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think they’re a little better at it these days. We have an upgraded experimental cabinet. We can take pictures, and of course it’s all electronic now. I don’t favor electronic note-taking because it’s like filling out the form. What you want to say never fits that form exactly. We did a lot of drawing of features we observed."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That definitely added to the amount of time it took to go through the core."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Besides, I liked looking at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were there other people that were working with you on those cores as you were going through? Or that was your project for those months?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "There’s very few people who have dissected lunar soil cores, working at most two core gloveboxes simultaneously. Those who have include myself, Stewart Nagel, Stephen [R.] Waltz, and Carol [M.] Schwarz. If I were working on a core, that would be my core, and I wouldn’t want the other person to come in and dig in it. Same thing would apply to their core. We interpreted what we saw probably a little bit differently, but then this was a basic characterization. I think researchers understood that. The science from the cores samples came from the detailed analysis by investigators, measuring the changing chemistry with each little increment of depth in the soil."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "One of the other things I had read that you worked on was preparing samples for PIs. Wondering if you could talk about how you did that. How did you decide which samples? Was that something that they proposed? They wanted rock, whatever the title was at that point? Or did you get to decide which sample they would receive, and how did you go about making that decision?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:75", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 25.210521938850906, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, it is an impressive number. Some of the particles collected are orbital debris, exhaust from rockets that gets lofted up that high. The lab workers who pick particles from the gooey plates have an eye for cosmic dust versus rocket exhaust. Once picked, then the workers mount the particle for SEM [scanning electron microscope] screening, resulting in a good mugshot with the SEM and a little bit of chemistry. They publish catalogs using SEM data so researchers can shop for particles meeting their particular research requirements and request that particle. In all the curatorial collections, we still do basic characterization of samples and publish the results so researchers world-wide can access samples through requests and peer-review. We still do the equivalent of the Apollo PET to promote wise use of limited samples for best research."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I noticed you had worked on some of those catalogs."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I don’t remember working on cosmic dust catalogs, maybe I helped with the database or something. I have written lunar core catalogs, historical summaries of the way Apollo samples were handled, and in recent years lunar and planetary science abstracts describing Genesis solar wind sample processing and sample status."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have a lengthy publication record, that’s for sure."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s interesting. Brownlee—he was the Stardust PI for the mission that went and directly collected particles in aerogel from Comet Wild 2 and returned those samples to the Stardust Lab. The Stardust Lab is separate from the Cosmic Dust Lab. Cosmic dust is a random mix of stuff that happens to fall on the Earth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was curious if you could talk about how procedures have changed since you started there, if they have at all. If things have changed or the facilities changed. Obviously there was the annex that was built in ’79 and opened. I don’t know if you want to talk about some of those changes, or if things have been pretty consistent over the years."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:89", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.160929830092783, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly an observer. Curators got a Greyhound [Lines, Inc.] bus whose vibration characteristics were less than any other bus they could find. They took out all the seats and strapped the isopods containing samples in with seatbelts. My husband, Charles S. Allton, provided the engineering support securing the isopods in the bus. Sometimes I found out things through him."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s funny. I didn’t know about the Greyhound bus, that’s pretty interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They drove in the dark of night at thirty-five miles an hour so they wouldn’t jostle the samples, with a security escort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thirty-five miles an hour. You all knew that was happening, but they didn’t make that announcement at the Center, I imagine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. So you primarily were just doing research during these days."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:91", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 14.62325536676976, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "They drove in the dark of night at thirty-five miles an hour so they wouldn’t jostle the samples, with a security escort."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Thirty-five miles an hour. You all knew that was happening, but they didn’t make that announcement at the Center, I imagine."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. So you primarily were just doing research during these days."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What would I have been doing? I was probably doing core samples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still exciting work, I think. After you were a research analyst for a few years, you became a senior research analyst. I was curious if your role changed at all in any way or you just sort of continued—it was just a promotion, a change in salary, things of that nature."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:93", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 14.025839296410844, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Right."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s interesting. So you primarily were just doing research during these days."}, {"role": "user", "content": "What would I have been doing? I was probably doing core samples."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Still exciting work, I think. After you were a research analyst for a few years, you became a senior research analyst. I was curious if your role changed at all in any way or you just sort of continued—it was just a promotion, a change in salary, things of that nature."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The change in position titles reflects longevity of a willingness to work wherever needed, I think. Perhaps an enthusiasm for all projects. I’m just an ordinary person, but I was lucky enough to be able to spend a lot of extra time researching topics related to good curation, learning how to use Datatrieve [software] to compile sample statistics, collect documents and study photographs while compiling the Apollo geology sampling tool catalog, which is much used today by the young generation engineers designing tools for our future lunar missions."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You have an archive of all the materials that you have over in Building 31 and records related to the building and hardware and all those things?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:107", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 10.944790351789532, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Now they did x-ray the soil cores in the early days to see if they were full of rocks, but they were fuzzy images on the early ones. Later ones got a little better. But even so, when you collect a core on the Moon and you tamp down the top so it doesn’t slide around, and you bring it back, it gets jostled a bit. The main thing is when it sits sideways on the shelf it just sort of settles on the end. There is not gross distortion, but it’s obviously not exactly like it was on the Moon."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you account for that when you were going through those core samples?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "We took better x-rays on those larger cores from the last three missions. Small void space is often visible on the ends. When the soil is pushed out of the tubes, the void space fills in. We just had to be aware that the ends might have been a little bit distorted.\\n\\n After the soil is pushed into the receptacle, the fused quartz top is removed and the exposed outer one mm of soil is scraped away to remove the soil that came in contact with the anodized aluminum tube wall. Anodization process is dirty, relatively speaking, and traces of contamination were detectable in that outer 1 mm, so we’d take that off. Then we would dig through the core in half-centimeter increments and place each subsample into a separate container.\\n\\n Subsamples were described with the depth from the top of the core. Finally, a lengthwise portion soil of the entire depth profile remained in the receptacle, and this material was removed from the nitrogen glovebox and taken to laboratory where the material is preserved in epoxy, some of which is prepared as thin sections."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like a lot of work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hence all those procedures for extrusion, dissection, epoxy preservation, thin section preparation. The procedures were annotated as executed. We had a reader and a doer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people were working with you on those?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:109", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 12.160878168655035, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We took better x-rays on those larger cores from the last three missions. Small void space is often visible on the ends. When the soil is pushed out of the tubes, the void space fills in. We just had to be aware that the ends might have been a little bit distorted.\\n\\n After the soil is pushed into the receptacle, the fused quartz top is removed and the exposed outer one mm of soil is scraped away to remove the soil that came in contact with the anodized aluminum tube wall. Anodization process is dirty, relatively speaking, and traces of contamination were detectable in that outer 1 mm, so we’d take that off. Then we would dig through the core in half-centimeter increments and place each subsample into a separate container.\\n\\n Subsamples were described with the depth from the top of the core. Finally, a lengthwise portion soil of the entire depth profile remained in the receptacle, and this material was removed from the nitrogen glovebox and taken to laboratory where the material is preserved in epoxy, some of which is prepared as thin sections."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Sounds like a lot of work."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hence all those procedures for extrusion, dissection, epoxy preservation, thin section preparation. The procedures were annotated as executed. We had a reader and a doer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people were working with you on those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we did an extrusion, or any of these specialized things, about three people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did that take?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:111", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 11.289864631838928, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Hence all those procedures for extrusion, dissection, epoxy preservation, thin section preparation. The procedures were annotated as executed. We had a reader and a doer."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How many people were working with you on those?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we did an extrusion, or any of these specialized things, about three people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did that take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think some cores might have been done in a couple months. I was slower than everybody else, but I probably ran longer than three months on some of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just enjoyed playing around with them and seeing and enjoying what was in there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:113", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 12.544294035376586, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "When we did an extrusion, or any of these specialized things, about three people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How long did that take?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think some cores might have been done in a couple months. I was slower than everybody else, but I probably ran longer than three months on some of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just enjoyed playing around with them and seeing and enjoying what was in there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a bit tedious physically, too. I’m not going to shovel soil out of the tube really fast. That’s just not what you do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seems like it’s a very detailed process."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:115", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 13.938104483751761, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think some cores might have been done in a couple months. I was slower than everybody else, but I probably ran longer than three months on some of them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Just enjoyed playing around with them and seeing and enjoying what was in there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a bit tedious physically, too. I’m not going to shovel soil out of the tube really fast. That’s just not what you do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seems like it’s a very detailed process."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is and very controlled. For those you pretty much know exactly what was done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you sharing what you were learning as you were going through these cores? On a daily basis were you sharing with the curator, “This is what I found”? Would he come by and take a look, or were they just waiting until you finished and you gave a report?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:117", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 15.486782759724179, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was a bit tedious physically, too. I’m not going to shovel soil out of the tube really fast. That’s just not what you do."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It seems like it’s a very detailed process."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is and very controlled. For those you pretty much know exactly what was done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you sharing what you were learning as you were going through these cores? On a daily basis were you sharing with the curator, “This is what I found”? Would he come by and take a look, or were they just waiting until you finished and you gave a report?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly they were waiting until I finished. But every once in a while I would find something really cool and then get somebody to come in and look at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of those really cool moments, or really cool things that you found?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:119", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.09642528858242, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It is and very controlled. For those you pretty much know exactly what was done."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you sharing what you were learning as you were going through these cores? On a daily basis were you sharing with the curator, “This is what I found”? Would he come by and take a look, or were they just waiting until you finished and you gave a report?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly they were waiting until I finished. But every once in a while I would find something really cool and then get somebody to come in and look at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of those really cool moments, or really cool things that you found?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The thing that comes to mind is something somebody else found. It was a glass bubble that was hollow that was this big [demonstrates] in an Apollo 17 core. It had enough metal in the glass, it looked like metallic glass. That was a little odd."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you speculating on what that could be?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:121", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 17.8849169873138, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Mostly they were waiting until I finished. But every once in a while I would find something really cool and then get somebody to come in and look at it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "What were some of those really cool moments, or really cool things that you found?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "The thing that comes to mind is something somebody else found. It was a glass bubble that was hollow that was this big [demonstrates] in an Apollo 17 core. It had enough metal in the glass, it looked like metallic glass. That was a little odd."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you speculating on what that could be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I don’t remember what the outcome was. I don’t think it was something that changed a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had been there for a while and then you got promoted to a management position where you were overseeing about ten folks and a clerk. I was curious how you made that change from a researcher into more of a manager, and what you did to prepare yourself for that kind of role."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:123", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 17.649907763682002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The thing that comes to mind is something somebody else found. It was a glass bubble that was hollow that was this big [demonstrates] in an Apollo 17 core. It had enough metal in the glass, it looked like metallic glass. That was a little odd."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Were you speculating on what that could be?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I don’t remember what the outcome was. I don’t think it was something that changed a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had been there for a while and then you got promoted to a management position where you were overseeing about ten folks and a clerk. I was curious how you made that change from a researcher into more of a manager, and what you did to prepare yourself for that kind of role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My basic answer is I don’t recall, but I do know it was a change of pace. I decided I couldn’t really concentrate on science kind of things or contamination control kind of things if I were to follow that many people and keep up with what they were doing. So I did change how I approached that project. I don’t think it lasted that long. One of the people I supervised later supervised me, that kind of thing. We’d both been there since ’73 and ’74. It just helps when you have people that know a many useful skills."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you work independently quite a bit in that lab, I would think."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:125", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 19.611008626313335, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes, I don’t remember what the outcome was. I don’t think it was something that changed a lot."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You had been there for a while and then you got promoted to a management position where you were overseeing about ten folks and a clerk. I was curious how you made that change from a researcher into more of a manager, and what you did to prepare yourself for that kind of role."}, {"role": "user", "content": "My basic answer is I don’t recall, but I do know it was a change of pace. I decided I couldn’t really concentrate on science kind of things or contamination control kind of things if I were to follow that many people and keep up with what they were doing. So I did change how I approached that project. I don’t think it lasted that long. One of the people I supervised later supervised me, that kind of thing. We’d both been there since ’73 and ’74. It just helps when you have people that know a many useful skills."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I guess you work independently quite a bit in that lab, I would think."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Doing cores, yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You mentioned earlier about the conference that you went to where there was a discussion in the women’s restroom. Are there other conferences that you would attend over the years where you recall any interesting events or moments, or some interesting discoveries that stand out in your mind, or maybe a presentation that you gave?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:133", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 25.896980073637145, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was speaking of competitive science. Most of the people we prepare samples for compete on proposals for proposal funding to answer a science question. Many people in the curation staff also do that. I don’t, but I’m the odd person out. I pay more attention to contamination control and lab operation. These responsibilities require science knowledge and are important in sample preservation. The other curators have their own narrowly focused research goals and proposals. My interests are broader, and sometimes I make connections between collections that are beneficial. Papers detailing curation handling of samples are important to science interpretation."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Okay."}, {"role": "user", "content": "The people that make the science conclusions need to know all that background material. We put out the catalogs for many of the collections. Genesis, for instance, we try and write abstracts every year that describe how we handle the samples, or what we’re doing. That would not be something that would make a publication in a peer-reviewed journal."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I see."}, {"role": "user", "content": "But it’s helpful. Besides, if it’s an abstract, then I can always know where to find it. I don’t have to worry about it getting lost on an archive shelf. That works out nicely."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You’ve written quite a bit on lunar samples and the cores over the years. You’ve been going to the Lunar and Planetary Conferences for years. Have things changed in terms of the way people are using these samples and what we’re learning about the Moon, maybe even the universe?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:151", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 16.85353887836619, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I thought, “Yes, sir, I can send you one.” He was wanting it for his painting."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I can imagine that would be really helpful. That’s really nice. I think I used it in December. I got a call from the Legal Office when the Neil [A.] Armstrong—that [lunar sample return] bag showed up. That was an interesting one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in my catalog, I swear I did not find that. I had not seen one like that. I searched through our archives. We asked everybody who was around back in those days. My husband Charlie works in Crew Systems. He and a colleague went through the closets in the soft goods, spent several hours. “No, we don’t have anything like that.” So I said, “I don’t think that’s genuine lar bag.”\\n\\n But then they did the last thing. They did a tape pull, put that in the SEM, and there was lunar grains on it. One of our young guys, I’m so proud of him. He went and dug up the photographic documentation for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kind of bad the way that turned out in court. But I felt like we’ve got a new generation of somebody who likes digging in old records and learning this history."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get picked to be the archivist? Is that a position that you take turns doing over there?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:153", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 18.726154309295765, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Not in my catalog, I swear I did not find that. I had not seen one like that. I searched through our archives. We asked everybody who was around back in those days. My husband Charlie works in Crew Systems. He and a colleague went through the closets in the soft goods, spent several hours. “No, we don’t have anything like that.” So I said, “I don’t think that’s genuine lar bag.”\\n\\n But then they did the last thing. They did a tape pull, put that in the SEM, and there was lunar grains on it. One of our young guys, I’m so proud of him. He went and dug up the photographic documentation for that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Oh, good."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kind of bad the way that turned out in court. But I felt like we’ve got a new generation of somebody who likes digging in old records and learning this history."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get picked to be the archivist? Is that a position that you take turns doing over there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I was the first one. The curator just gave me a fancy title, and I took it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like an interesting job."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:155", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 19.69572701032863, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Kind of bad the way that turned out in court. But I felt like we’ve got a new generation of somebody who likes digging in old records and learning this history."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get picked to be the archivist? Is that a position that you take turns doing over there?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I was the first one. The curator just gave me a fancy title, and I took it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like an interesting job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, because I got to look through all those Lunar Receiving Lab records. I think I got it because they didn’t have anything else to do with me. I had been working on a flight instrument for Jim [James L.] Gooding and that ran out of money. I wasn’t doing curation that much at that time, but once I went around talking to people I discovered such a gold mine of stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we’ve got to figure out how we can collaborate together on those interviews. Maybe we can make them accessible, see about getting some of them transcribed. Even the cafeteria one."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:157", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 21.884141122587366, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I think I was the first one. The curator just gave me a fancy title, and I took it."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounds like an interesting job."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, because I got to look through all those Lunar Receiving Lab records. I think I got it because they didn’t have anything else to do with me. I had been working on a flight instrument for Jim [James L.] Gooding and that ran out of money. I wasn’t doing curation that much at that time, but once I went around talking to people I discovered such a gold mine of stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we’ve got to figure out how we can collaborate together on those interviews. Maybe we can make them accessible, see about getting some of them transcribed. Even the cafeteria one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d like to do that. I made a list of some people I talked to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can be something that we could look at and see if that were a possibility. Be nice to make them available, because I’m sure there’s some great information in there."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:159", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 24.315712358430407, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "It was, because I got to look through all those Lunar Receiving Lab records. I think I got it because they didn’t have anything else to do with me. I had been working on a flight instrument for Jim [James L.] Gooding and that ran out of money. I wasn’t doing curation that much at that time, but once I went around talking to people I discovered such a gold mine of stories."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Yes, we’ve got to figure out how we can collaborate together on those interviews. Maybe we can make them accessible, see about getting some of them transcribed. Even the cafeteria one."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d like to do that. I made a list of some people I talked to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can be something that we could look at and see if that were a possibility. Be nice to make them available, because I’m sure there’s some great information in there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t ask good questions like you did. They rose to the occasion. The interviewees certainly recognized the historic importance of their participation and told me great stories with similar themes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hey, that’s great, and they’re not around for us to talk to. That would be a good partnership. We’ll have to talk more about that, I think that’d be good. You also worked on some parts of the Solar Max [Maximum Mission] satellite, which I thought was interesting."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:161", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 3, "return_to_go": 27.017458176033784, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’d like to do that. I made a list of some people I talked to."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That can be something that we could look at and see if that were a possibility. Be nice to make them available, because I’m sure there’s some great information in there."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t ask good questions like you did. They rose to the occasion. The interviewees certainly recognized the historic importance of their participation and told me great stories with similar themes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hey, that’s great, and they’re not around for us to talk to. That would be a good partnership. We’ll have to talk more about that, I think that’d be good. You also worked on some parts of the Solar Max [Maximum Mission] satellite, which I thought was interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get involved in that? That’s a little different than lunar curating."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:163", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 5, "return_to_go": 26.68606464003754, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I didn’t ask good questions like you did. They rose to the occasion. The interviewees certainly recognized the historic importance of their participation and told me great stories with similar themes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Hey, that’s great, and they’re not around for us to talk to. That would be a good partnership. We’ll have to talk more about that, I think that’d be good. You also worked on some parts of the Solar Max [Maximum Mission] satellite, which I thought was interesting."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get involved in that? That’s a little different than lunar curating."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We curated the blankets from Solar Max. They were scanning the microcrater populations. Herb [Herbert A.] Zook was the PI on that and the tech was Jack [L.] Warren. It was kind of a tech job of scanning. I just did the logistics stuff; I think I drafted the paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were the main writer on that."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:165", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 4, "return_to_go": 24.095627377819486, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "How did you get involved in that? That’s a little different than lunar curating."}, {"role": "user", "content": "We curated the blankets from Solar Max. They were scanning the microcrater populations. Herb [Herbert A.] Zook was the PI on that and the tech was Jack [L.] Warren. It was kind of a tech job of scanning. I just did the logistics stuff; I think I drafted the paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You were the main writer on that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, really? It was a documentation really, of a survey. Herb put the science in it—what the populations were based on our crater counts and the direction that the blankets were facing, what that told us about orbital debris population in orbit. We curate those pieces. We’ve got items from several things that spent time in space, and they collected micrometeorite impacts. In some of those you can get the chemistry of the impactor, so it gives you a feel for the identity of the source population. Not all of it is orbital debris. Some of it is micrometeorites.\\n\\n Think we have Palapa and Westar blankets. We might have Mir. I haven’t done that in a long time so I’ve kind of lost track. We had Genesis and Stardust capsules. The Stardust capsule is at the Smithsonian, and the Genesis capsule is still at JSC but not very presentable after the crash."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think those would be interesting to talk about. You got involved at some point working on the Mars Rover Sample Return project. How did you get involved in that effort?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:173", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 23.578154820636314, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. We’d have a fair start if you wanted to do the history of Mars Rover Sample Return. Mars sample return has been in work for—that was in the 1980s I think when I did that. It was my first look at watching engineers and scientists work together. That’s probably the most interesting thing that needs to be solved in return."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Can you elaborate on that?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "MRSR, that was a fairly congenial group. That was my first look at the engineers saying, “Well, what are the requirements? We can design anything. What are the requirements? What do you require this piece of hardware to do?” Scientists often have difficulty setting a practical requirement, especially when they need to make cutting-edge measurements.\\n\\n Somewhere in the middle is an optimum compromise. The more complex spacecraft mechanisms, the more risk it will not work reliably—reliability versus returning a sample that’s worth analyzing. That’s always an interesting dance of watching how they arrive at something in the middle. At least the science people tend to stake out very rigorous conditions. I guess it’s just a bargaining point. I wasn’t used to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the case with the Mars Rover Sample Return?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I did put in my two cents’ worth. They started to define a Mars rover of a Volkswagen variety, but it grew into a Cadillac and got too expensive, so no rover was built for MRSR. That’s the basic story there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also, I had read, worked on packaging of Martian samples. You had worked with lunar samples. What impact did that have on your decision about what you can do with Martian samples and how they should be packaged and handled?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:175", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 25.086838689595904, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "MRSR, that was a fairly congenial group. That was my first look at the engineers saying, “Well, what are the requirements? We can design anything. What are the requirements? What do you require this piece of hardware to do?” Scientists often have difficulty setting a practical requirement, especially when they need to make cutting-edge measurements.\\n\\n Somewhere in the middle is an optimum compromise. The more complex spacecraft mechanisms, the more risk it will not work reliably—reliability versus returning a sample that’s worth analyzing. That’s always an interesting dance of watching how they arrive at something in the middle. At least the science people tend to stake out very rigorous conditions. I guess it’s just a bargaining point. I wasn’t used to that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Was that the case with the Mars Rover Sample Return?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I did put in my two cents’ worth. They started to define a Mars rover of a Volkswagen variety, but it grew into a Cadillac and got too expensive, so no rover was built for MRSR. That’s the basic story there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also, I had read, worked on packaging of Martian samples. You had worked with lunar samples. What impact did that have on your decision about what you can do with Martian samples and how they should be packaged and handled?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that’s a bit tricky, because the Martian samples we do have, the meteorites, I have not personally worked with. And the meteorites that come from Antarctica are not handled quite as rigorously as lunar samples, because they’ve already fallen on the Earth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You came up with a brochure for handling these samples."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:177", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 26.763154099551006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. I did put in my two cents’ worth. They started to define a Mars rover of a Volkswagen variety, but it grew into a Cadillac and got too expensive, so no rover was built for MRSR. That’s the basic story there."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You also, I had read, worked on packaging of Martian samples. You had worked with lunar samples. What impact did that have on your decision about what you can do with Martian samples and how they should be packaged and handled?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that’s a bit tricky, because the Martian samples we do have, the meteorites, I have not personally worked with. And the meteorites that come from Antarctica are not handled quite as rigorously as lunar samples, because they’ve already fallen on the Earth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You came up with a brochure for handling these samples."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I sent that out. Yes, there’s a packaging industry, and I was plugged into them. I thought, “Well, I’ll just ask their leaders what we should do,” and I got lots of suggestions. That’s back when we were looking at your soda can thing, what it takes to seal a soda can. It can hold ninety psi [pounds per square inch] pressure, which is quite a lot for not much weight. I got a number of replies that were very creative, but that’s all I did with that. The curator was aware of it. We didn’t make any PR [public relations] thing out of it. It was generally people who found that an interesting intellectual challenge. They had an idea, and they’d draw it up. It wasn’t high-paid graphics. It was people sitting down with pencil and paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounded like you were getting a step further, “How are we going to do this?” The next step, if we’re going to get samples and bring them back."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:179", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 29.736837888390006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Oh, that’s a bit tricky, because the Martian samples we do have, the meteorites, I have not personally worked with. And the meteorites that come from Antarctica are not handled quite as rigorously as lunar samples, because they’ve already fallen on the Earth."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "You came up with a brochure for handling these samples."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I sent that out. Yes, there’s a packaging industry, and I was plugged into them. I thought, “Well, I’ll just ask their leaders what we should do,” and I got lots of suggestions. That’s back when we were looking at your soda can thing, what it takes to seal a soda can. It can hold ninety psi [pounds per square inch] pressure, which is quite a lot for not much weight. I got a number of replies that were very creative, but that’s all I did with that. The curator was aware of it. We didn’t make any PR [public relations] thing out of it. It was generally people who found that an interesting intellectual challenge. They had an idea, and they’d draw it up. It wasn’t high-paid graphics. It was people sitting down with pencil and paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounded like you were getting a step further, “How are we going to do this?” The next step, if we’re going to get samples and bring them back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to recall what some of them were. They had to do with canning, was one of them. They were certainly worth looking at. I probably have those somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you retire, you’ll have to go through your records and donate those or keep them with the collection over in Building 31. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about those interviews that you did with some of the planetary scientists. Do you remember some of the people you interviewed?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:181", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 33.040930987100005, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I sent that out. Yes, there’s a packaging industry, and I was plugged into them. I thought, “Well, I’ll just ask their leaders what we should do,” and I got lots of suggestions. That’s back when we were looking at your soda can thing, what it takes to seal a soda can. It can hold ninety psi [pounds per square inch] pressure, which is quite a lot for not much weight. I got a number of replies that were very creative, but that’s all I did with that. The curator was aware of it. We didn’t make any PR [public relations] thing out of it. It was generally people who found that an interesting intellectual challenge. They had an idea, and they’d draw it up. It wasn’t high-paid graphics. It was people sitting down with pencil and paper."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "It sounded like you were getting a step further, “How are we going to do this?” The next step, if we’re going to get samples and bring them back."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to recall what some of them were. They had to do with canning, was one of them. They were certainly worth looking at. I probably have those somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you retire, you’ll have to go through your records and donate those or keep them with the collection over in Building 31. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about those interviews that you did with some of the planetary scientists. Do you remember some of the people you interviewed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wrote that down. I looked that up today. Where’d I put them?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was curious who some of those folks might be."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:183", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 19, "return_to_go": 34.489923319000006, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m trying to recall what some of them were. They had to do with canning, was one of them. They were certainly worth looking at. I probably have those somewhere."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "When you retire, you’ll have to go through your records and donate those or keep them with the collection over in Building 31. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about those interviews that you did with some of the planetary scientists. Do you remember some of the people you interviewed?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "I wrote that down. I looked that up today. Where’d I put them?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I was curious who some of those folks might be."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Down here at the bottom. There are several. I went around with my own tape recorder. I talked to these people. Elbert [A.] King [Jr.] was done. Joe [Joseph N.] Tatarewicz was in town. Do you know him?"}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "No, that name doesn’t ring a bell."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:191", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 1, "return_to_go": 16.050790000000003, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Everett [K.] Gibson, Gary [E.] Lofgren. I was just a test subject to test out the process."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "That’s quite a lot. There’s some good history of the materials and the folks working up there, that’s great."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was hoping Beth Horner could take that and tell stories that would really be effectively told. I think somehow or other the contract she had with Jacobs didn’t allow her to do that with them, which is odd. And Kay didn’t get releases from these people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, that could be a challenge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure I did either back in ’93. So I don’t know if that can be worked retroactively or not. They exist, so people could—my view is they could come to the archives and do what they wanted to with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d have to investigate that, but I’m sure we could figure something out."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:193", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 2, "return_to_go": 16.723100000000002, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I was hoping Beth Horner could take that and tell stories that would really be effectively told. I think somehow or other the contract she had with Jacobs didn’t allow her to do that with them, which is odd. And Kay didn’t get releases from these people."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Ah, that could be a challenge."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure I did either back in ’93. So I don’t know if that can be worked retroactively or not. They exist, so people could—my view is they could come to the archives and do what they wanted to with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d have to investigate that, but I’m sure we could figure something out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By the time we did these, I knew we needed releases, but I just couldn’t be persuasive enough to get that done. David McKay has passed away, but his widow is still living."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure that you could probably ask the family for a release. We’ll have to figure that out. It’d be nice if you could release some of that work that you’ve done. I’m sure there’s a lot of good detail that people don’t know much about."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:195", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 6, "return_to_go": 16.359, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "I’m not sure I did either back in ’93. So I don’t know if that can be worked retroactively or not. They exist, so people could—my view is they could come to the archives and do what they wanted to with them."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’d have to investigate that, but I’m sure we could figure something out."}, {"role": "user", "content": "By the time we did these, I knew we needed releases, but I just couldn’t be persuasive enough to get that done. David McKay has passed away, but his widow is still living."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I’m sure that you could probably ask the family for a release. We’ll have to figure that out. It’d be nice if you could release some of that work that you’ve done. I’m sure there’s a lot of good detail that people don’t know much about."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Yes. Bogard’s stories are good. You’ve talked to Everett, you know his stories are all good."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I think everyone’s interesting when we sit down and talk with them. They’ve all got good information, good stories."}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:205", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Dick [Richard H.] Koos sat down and wrote a piece to glue in the copy that’s in our church library. He talked about the role, just being able to sit in Sunday services and have a period to reflect, which allowed him to come to grips with some of the hard decisions that had been discussed or argued over the previous week. So I thought that that might have been the case with many of the people that were making Apollo decisions, not just astronauts. I thought maybe there was a role."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I thought it was an interesting article, giving some thought about that."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wendell got somebody in sociology to review it before he put it in his book."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder if you want to review your notes and see if there’s anything we haven’t talked about, or if there’s something more you think we should talk about in terms of the lunar curation and your involvement and maybe processes or procedures. I know I wanted to come back and talk to you about Genesis, and now I know I need to ask you about Stardust as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, most of these were tagged from what you asked here. The only thing that I thought of—I thought back over the time I worked here, “What did I come away learning in terms of what advice would I give for future efforts?” So I collected some thoughts on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to share those now? Or would you like to talk about those the next time we come?"}]}
{"block_id": "jsc-oral-history-00027:207", "domain": "oral_history", "factual_novelty_score": 0, "return_to_go": 0.0, "messages": [{"role": "system", "content": "Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history."}, {"role": "user", "content": "Wendell got somebody in sociology to review it before he put it in his book."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "I wonder if you want to review your notes and see if there’s anything we haven’t talked about, or if there’s something more you think we should talk about in terms of the lunar curation and your involvement and maybe processes or procedures. I know I wanted to come back and talk to you about Genesis, and now I know I need to ask you about Stardust as well."}, {"role": "user", "content": "No, most of these were tagged from what you asked here. The only thing that I thought of—I thought back over the time I worked here, “What did I come away learning in terms of what advice would I give for future efforts?” So I collected some thoughts on that."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Do you want to share those now? Or would you like to talk about those the next time we come?"}, {"role": "user", "content": "It’s kind of long, let’s see. Discussing things now, the advantages of sample return are many. If I could advertise something, that would be it, because it lets more people be involved in making analytical measurements and participating in the science. With more people with different ideas and different instruments, you can confirm science results or refute them. This is better science. You can’t do that very well robotically or in situ. You need samples here. Socially, it’s just good to involve more people in participating in this exploration.\\n\\n You get state-of-the-art instruments, you can do complex sample preparation. I guess the main thing is you can recover from mess-ups like the Genesis crash. So sample return is very important. I’m not the only one that says that, but if I had a free soapbox that’s what I would talk about."}, {"role": "assistant", "content": "Those are important, and you know because you worked with them on a regular basis. I thank you for coming by today, and I will send you an e-mail about getting together again to talk about Genesis and Stardust."}]}