[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was running and online when the mission was going. If there were any problems, we were able to jump in and sort them out.

[Assistant] Were you ever called on to solve any problems when the Shuttle was in orbit?

[User] Oh yes. I don’t remember what they were, but when they’d have a problem at Kennedy, we’d stop and try to recreate it to see if it was a problem in the avionics or a problem elsewhere. In my opinion, there were very few problems with the flight avionics software because of all that integrated testing and the commonality between all the test areas. We would check out the Lunar Modules at Grumman and the Command and Service Module [CSM] in Downey, California. We would check out the flight system at Kennedy Space Center, which would be the integrated Command and Service Module and the Lunar Modules. A lot of people fought it, but that was the right way to go in my opinion. Rather than having everybody have something different. You couldn’t trace it and follow it and support it.

[Assistant] Would you tell us about some of the tests that you did before the Shuttle flew?

[User] Oh yes. We would run the tests of the launch and show how the software worked through the launch period. We would check the backup computer in case there was a failure in one of the computers. Did the backup computer take over? If they had a problem down at the Kennedy Space Center, then we would get the information and try to reproduce that problem to see if it was an avionics problem or what it was. I think it was a magnificent experience. I’m glad I was there.

[Assistant] It’s an amazing facility as you walk through and see all of the wiring for the Orbiter.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. We would run the tests of the launch and show how the software worked through the launch period. We would check the backup computer in case there was a failure in one of the computers. Did the backup computer take over? If they had a problem down at the Kennedy Space Center, then we would get the information and try to reproduce that problem to see if it was an avionics problem or what it was. I think it was a magnificent experience. I’m glad I was there.

[Assistant] It’s an amazing facility as you walk through and see all of the wiring for the Orbiter.

[User] I haven’t been there for years, but somebody wanted to move SAIL so they could do something else there. I won’t say who. I sat and listened to the engineering director and what all they wanted to do. Got through and the engineering director turned to me, and he said, “Well, what do you think Irv?” I said, “Can’t do it. If you move all those cables, it will take years to get it back up. We won’t be able to support the program.” He said, “Okay. I guess that settles that.”

[Assistant] How long did it take to build this facility that was used for STS-1 and also the ALT [Approach and Landing] Program?

[User] I don’t remember how long. As things would come along, and they were building the computers for the flight system, we would get copies of the latest updates and integrate them into the lab. We would keep up the testing of that to see before they flew it that it worked all right. SAIL evolved as the Shuttle evolved.

[Assistant] How early were you testing flight software for Apollo and Shuttle?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I haven’t been there for years, but somebody wanted to move SAIL so they could do something else there. I won’t say who. I sat and listened to the engineering director and what all they wanted to do. Got through and the engineering director turned to me, and he said, “Well, what do you think Irv?” I said, “Can’t do it. If you move all those cables, it will take years to get it back up. We won’t be able to support the program.” He said, “Okay. I guess that settles that.”

[Assistant] How long did it take to build this facility that was used for STS-1 and also the ALT [Approach and Landing] Program?

[User] I don’t remember how long. As things would come along, and they were building the computers for the flight system, we would get copies of the latest updates and integrate them into the lab. We would keep up the testing of that to see before they flew it that it worked all right. SAIL evolved as the Shuttle evolved.

[Assistant] How early were you testing flight software for Apollo and Shuttle?

[User] From the beginning we were testing whatever the flight software was. We were starting it at Downey on the CSM. They were testing the Lunar Modules at Grumman. We were putting together SAIL to do an integrated test of the Orbiter. As that evolved, we were keeping up with the flight testing as it went along and keeping the SAIL up to date with the latest changes. It was modifications all the time, depending on what we had to do to keep up with the flight system. We were always using the latest software and testing it before they flew it.

[Assistant] How closely were you working with North American Rockwell?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I went to [Marshall Space Flight Center] Huntsville [Alabama] once, and I went to Canada once. Each time I had a detached retina right after those two flights. It slowed me up a bit.

[Assistant] Sounds painful. One of the questions that I wanted to ask you—it’s been circulating around quite a bit in the Space Shuttle Program—is how the SAIL actually got an OV [Orbiting Vehicle] number, and why it was given the number 95. Do you know?

[User] I saw that on your list of questions, and I don’t know the answer. When did it happen, do you know?

[Assistant]
No. I sure don’t, but they keep asking us.

Cliff would probably know.

Cliff who?

Cliff Bradford. He lives in Alabama now, but we see him every year.

[User] Yes, we have an ACE reunion every year.

[Assistant]
Every year we all get together for a run three-day reunion. This year it was held at our house, the day after the 40th reunion held at the Space Center. The group has stayed together all these years and has met in many different states.

Isn’t that nice? How large is the group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I saw that on your list of questions, and I don’t know the answer. When did it happen, do you know?

[Assistant]
No. I sure don’t, but they keep asking us.

Cliff would probably know.

Cliff who?

Cliff Bradford. He lives in Alabama now, but we see him every year.

[User] Yes, we have an ACE reunion every year.

[Assistant]
Every year we all get together for a run three-day reunion. This year it was held at our house, the day after the 40th reunion held at the Space Center. The group has stayed together all these years and has met in many different states.

Isn’t that nice? How large is the group?

[User] Some of them were not able to attend every year. There are approximately 20 to 30.

[Assistant] That’s a good size group. Would you tell us how your facility changed when you started working with the Department of Defense and classified flights?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we have an ACE reunion every year.

[Assistant]
Every year we all get together for a run three-day reunion. This year it was held at our house, the day after the 40th reunion held at the Space Center. The group has stayed together all these years and has met in many different states.

Isn’t that nice? How large is the group?

[User] Some of them were not able to attend every year. There are approximately 20 to 30.

[Assistant] That’s a good size group. Would you tell us how your facility changed when you started working with the Department of Defense and classified flights?

[User] I don’t know whether I remember that it changed except we tightened up the security to make sure that nobody got in there and nobody got any data. Any data that was recorded was classified and stored appropriately. I don’t remember it really affecting us that much, except for us having to keep classified data and making sure that no one was there that should not have been.

[Assistant] Now one of the things that Greg [C. Blackburn] told us that I thought was interesting was that the facility could be used as a backup for the Mission Control Center. Do you recall that decision?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of them were not able to attend every year. There are approximately 20 to 30.

[Assistant] That’s a good size group. Would you tell us how your facility changed when you started working with the Department of Defense and classified flights?

[User] I don’t know whether I remember that it changed except we tightened up the security to make sure that nobody got in there and nobody got any data. Any data that was recorded was classified and stored appropriately. I don’t remember it really affecting us that much, except for us having to keep classified data and making sure that no one was there that should not have been.

[Assistant] Now one of the things that Greg [C. Blackburn] told us that I thought was interesting was that the facility could be used as a backup for the Mission Control Center. Do you recall that decision?

[User] I remember it being talked about, but I don’t remember. I couldn’t comment.

[Assistant] That’s fine. Did you have to reconfigure the facility at all as you accepted new Orbiters into the fleet? First you had the Enterprise, and then Columbia, and then the rest of the fleet came on board. Did that affect you and your facility?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I don’t know whether I remember that it changed except we tightened up the security to make sure that nobody got in there and nobody got any data. Any data that was recorded was classified and stored appropriately. I don’t remember it really affecting us that much, except for us having to keep classified data and making sure that no one was there that should not have been.

[Assistant] Now one of the things that Greg [C. Blackburn] told us that I thought was interesting was that the facility could be used as a backup for the Mission Control Center. Do you recall that decision?

[User] I remember it being talked about, but I don’t remember. I couldn’t comment.

[Assistant] That’s fine. Did you have to reconfigure the facility at all as you accepted new Orbiters into the fleet? First you had the Enterprise, and then Columbia, and then the rest of the fleet came on board. Did that affect you and your facility?

[User] No, unless the avionics in it changed. The avionics was all standardized. If there was anything that did change, we would test that. But the computer systems, we stuck with the fact that we wanted them all to be standardized so that you didn’t have to worry about all these different configurations coming in to be tested. You’d have to redo everything so the flight data systems and the software was all pretty well standardized. Now there were some subprograms in there that were utilized for the specific mission that you would test, but the basic computer and the computer programs that run it were all standard, unless they did something after I left.

[Assistant] Did things change after Challenger in any way before you had STS-26 and the Return to Flight?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember it being talked about, but I don’t remember. I couldn’t comment.

[Assistant] That’s fine. Did you have to reconfigure the facility at all as you accepted new Orbiters into the fleet? First you had the Enterprise, and then Columbia, and then the rest of the fleet came on board. Did that affect you and your facility?

[User] No, unless the avionics in it changed. The avionics was all standardized. If there was anything that did change, we would test that. But the computer systems, we stuck with the fact that we wanted them all to be standardized so that you didn’t have to worry about all these different configurations coming in to be tested. You’d have to redo everything so the flight data systems and the software was all pretty well standardized. Now there were some subprograms in there that were utilized for the specific mission that you would test, but the basic computer and the computer programs that run it were all standard, unless they did something after I left.

[Assistant] Did things change after Challenger in any way before you had STS-26 and the Return to Flight?

[User] Anything changed after Challenger? Only that there was a lot of additional testing going on to make sure that we hadn’t missed something and it wasn’t the avionics that caused it.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about testing? How long might a test take? How many people might work a test? Do you recall from those days?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, unless the avionics in it changed. The avionics was all standardized. If there was anything that did change, we would test that. But the computer systems, we stuck with the fact that we wanted them all to be standardized so that you didn’t have to worry about all these different configurations coming in to be tested. You’d have to redo everything so the flight data systems and the software was all pretty well standardized. Now there were some subprograms in there that were utilized for the specific mission that you would test, but the basic computer and the computer programs that run it were all standard, unless they did something after I left.

[Assistant] Did things change after Challenger in any way before you had STS-26 and the Return to Flight?

[User] Anything changed after Challenger? Only that there was a lot of additional testing going on to make sure that we hadn’t missed something and it wasn’t the avionics that caused it.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about testing? How long might a test take? How many people might work a test? Do you recall from those days?

[User] It would just be a guess, because it varied. It varied depending on the testing, and the complexity of what they were doing, and who they had to get in there. Sometimes we’d have astronauts and sometimes we wouldn’t. We’d have subsystem managers there. It was a place where everybody could participate and was listened to, that includes astronauts, engineers, software people. Their representatives were asked to participate and did participate.

[Assistant] What do you think was the importance of the SAIL to the Shuttle program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Anything changed after Challenger? Only that there was a lot of additional testing going on to make sure that we hadn’t missed something and it wasn’t the avionics that caused it.

[Assistant] Can you tell us about testing? How long might a test take? How many people might work a test? Do you recall from those days?

[User] It would just be a guess, because it varied. It varied depending on the testing, and the complexity of what they were doing, and who they had to get in there. Sometimes we’d have astronauts and sometimes we wouldn’t. We’d have subsystem managers there. It was a place where everybody could participate and was listened to, that includes astronauts, engineers, software people. Their representatives were asked to participate and did participate.

[Assistant] What do you think was the importance of the SAIL to the Shuttle program?

[User] It was utilized to test the integrated software and to find any problems before they flew. As far as I know, it was extremely successful in doing that. Without the SAIL, I don’t know how they’d have found these problems. It was a magnificent lab and magnificent people worked there. Of course, that’s an opinion. They might say, “Well, all except Irv.”

[Assistant] We heard Doc Pepper. He gave a presentation a few weeks ago on the SAIL. Does his name ring a bell? It’s a very unique name, I thought.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It would just be a guess, because it varied. It varied depending on the testing, and the complexity of what they were doing, and who they had to get in there. Sometimes we’d have astronauts and sometimes we wouldn’t. We’d have subsystem managers there. It was a place where everybody could participate and was listened to, that includes astronauts, engineers, software people. Their representatives were asked to participate and did participate.

[Assistant] What do you think was the importance of the SAIL to the Shuttle program?

[User] It was utilized to test the integrated software and to find any problems before they flew. As far as I know, it was extremely successful in doing that. Without the SAIL, I don’t know how they’d have found these problems. It was a magnificent lab and magnificent people worked there. Of course, that’s an opinion. They might say, “Well, all except Irv.”

[Assistant] We heard Doc Pepper. He gave a presentation a few weeks ago on the SAIL. Does his name ring a bell? It’s a very unique name, I thought.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You had a patch or some sort of emblem for the facility. Is that correct?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was utilized to test the integrated software and to find any problems before they flew. As far as I know, it was extremely successful in doing that. Without the SAIL, I don’t know how they’d have found these problems. It was a magnificent lab and magnificent people worked there. Of course, that’s an opinion. They might say, “Well, all except Irv.”

[Assistant] We heard Doc Pepper. He gave a presentation a few weeks ago on the SAIL. Does his name ring a bell? It’s a very unique name, I thought.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You had a patch or some sort of emblem for the facility. Is that correct?

[User] Yes, we have got them at home. Did you bring one?

[Assistant]
I can bring a patch that you can copy, I’ll be glad to.

Great! Is there anybody you think we should talk to who might be good to get some more information about the facility itself and its history?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] You had a patch or some sort of emblem for the facility. Is that correct?

[User] Yes, we have got them at home. Did you bring one?

[Assistant]
I can bring a patch that you can copy, I’ll be glad to.

Great! Is there anybody you think we should talk to who might be good to get some more information about the facility itself and its history?

[User] Well, whether you can get him to do it or not—of course he comes up here working other jobs sometimes–but Cliff Bradford is my hero.

[Assistant]
Do you have any questions, Rebecca?

Mr. Burtzlaff, when you first started you were talking about how you worked for Martin and you were at the Cape. What year was that? When did you start with Martin, and what were you doing for them?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, we have got them at home. Did you bring one?

[Assistant]
I can bring a patch that you can copy, I’ll be glad to.

Great! Is there anybody you think we should talk to who might be good to get some more information about the facility itself and its history?

[User] Well, whether you can get him to do it or not—of course he comes up here working other jobs sometimes–but Cliff Bradford is my hero.

[Assistant]
Do you have any questions, Rebecca?

Mr. Burtzlaff, when you first started you were talking about how you worked for Martin and you were at the Cape. What year was that? When did you start with Martin, and what were you doing for them?

[User] Let’s see. I left in late ’64. Graduated college and then worked for them from ’56 to ’64.

[Assistant] Were you doing software programming for them as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, whether you can get him to do it or not—of course he comes up here working other jobs sometimes–but Cliff Bradford is my hero.

[Assistant]
Do you have any questions, Rebecca?

Mr. Burtzlaff, when you first started you were talking about how you worked for Martin and you were at the Cape. What year was that? When did you start with Martin, and what were you doing for them?

[User] Let’s see. I left in late ’64. Graduated college and then worked for them from ’56 to ’64.

[Assistant] Were you doing software programming for them as well?

[User] I was doing just about everything. Really I was a liaison going to each one of the flights or tests, calling the data back, getting it reduced overnight, and then the next morning presenting it to the Air Force.

[Assistant] You had two bosses then: Martin and the Air Force. Was the Air Force your main customer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Let’s see. I left in late ’64. Graduated college and then worked for them from ’56 to ’64.

[Assistant] Were you doing software programming for them as well?

[User] I was doing just about everything. Really I was a liaison going to each one of the flights or tests, calling the data back, getting it reduced overnight, and then the next morning presenting it to the Air Force.

[Assistant] You had two bosses then: Martin and the Air Force. Was the Air Force your main customer?

[User] The Air Force was the customer, yes. I just did whatever I had to do. My boss said, “What are you doing today?”

[Assistant] When you came to Houston was your facility ready to use? You mentioned that you were in the building for a while with the astronauts till they kicked you out. Were the buildings still being constructed during that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was doing just about everything. Really I was a liaison going to each one of the flights or tests, calling the data back, getting it reduced overnight, and then the next morning presenting it to the Air Force.

[Assistant] You had two bosses then: Martin and the Air Force. Was the Air Force your main customer?

[User] The Air Force was the customer, yes. I just did whatever I had to do. My boss said, “What are you doing today?”

[Assistant] When you came to Houston was your facility ready to use? You mentioned that you were in the building for a while with the astronauts till they kicked you out. Were the buildings still being constructed during that time?

[User] We didn’t have the SAIL built up by then. We built it up as we went along. We’d get flight hardware from wherever we could get it and put it together, and finally integrated it over a period of time. It was a very complex process.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you first heard about the Shuttle being developed? It was such a different spacecraft than what you had worked with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] The Air Force was the customer, yes. I just did whatever I had to do. My boss said, “What are you doing today?”

[Assistant] When you came to Houston was your facility ready to use? You mentioned that you were in the building for a while with the astronauts till they kicked you out. Were the buildings still being constructed during that time?

[User] We didn’t have the SAIL built up by then. We built it up as we went along. We’d get flight hardware from wherever we could get it and put it together, and finally integrated it over a period of time. It was a very complex process.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you first heard about the Shuttle being developed? It was such a different spacecraft than what you had worked with.

[User] Well, bring it on.

[Assistant] Ready for the challenge, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn’t have the SAIL built up by then. We built it up as we went along. We’d get flight hardware from wherever we could get it and put it together, and finally integrated it over a period of time. It was a very complex process.

[Assistant] What were your thoughts when you first heard about the Shuttle being developed? It was such a different spacecraft than what you had worked with.

[User] Well, bring it on.

[Assistant] Ready for the challenge, right?

[User] Yes. Well, that’s what we were there for. To meet the challenge and do the testing and make sure it worked.

[Assistant]
It did. That’s all I had, Jennifer.

Is there anything else that you wanted to share with us? Or would you like to share anything with us, Mrs. Burtzlaff? Recollections from the period?

I think it was a great time, because there were several big parties. Some formals and everything was really nice. I can remember once going down to a dinner and dance at big hotel by the Astrodome. There had big ice sculptures on the tables. It was all for the NASA people. I can remember going outside seeing the champion grand steers in our formals. It was just so much fun at the Gilruth Center. There were many picnics and get-togethers. When Irvin retired, they had a huge party. He just got all kinds of memorabilia.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It had always been. I had heard it again and again, just, um, through my interests, it had come up. But a recruiter came to campus my junior year, and I think that really planted the seed for me. Um, I applied the summer going into my senior year of college. So my whole last year of school, I knew, I actually knew where I was supposed to be going. I was initially assigned to Ecuador, and then about a month before I left, the earthquakes hit Ecuador and completely destroyed the infrastructure and part of the country. So, pretty frantically, we got a call that our trip was no longer going. Um.

And they gave us three options to decide where else to go, and Malawi was where I ended up. I think it did work out for the best. I absolutely, um, I loved being in Malawi, and I think I probably would have had a great experience in any country, in any program. But, um, it, I think while I was there, it definitely like suited my skills and interests.

[Assistant] Did you speak Spanish?

[User] I had been learning Spanish as, as a requirement for the Spanish speaking programs. You need to take language classes and kind of work on your skills. Um, I had been taking it, but as soon as I moved to Malawi and we learned Chichewa there.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] All the Spanish was just gone. Um, I think I would have had to put in work for language anywhere I went.

[Assistant] Did you ever really learn Chichewa?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I had been learning Spanish as, as a requirement for the Spanish speaking programs. You need to take language classes and kind of work on your skills. Um, I had been taking it, but as soon as I moved to Malawi and we learned Chichewa there.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] All the Spanish was just gone. Um, I think I would have had to put in work for language anywhere I went.

[Assistant] Did you ever really learn Chichewa?

[User] Chichewa. I, I had never learned it before. I had never learned anything outside of the romance languages. Um, I actually took to it pretty well. I think I really challenged myself to speak with my host family and to practice however much I could. Um, I scored intermediate high on the proficiency test, so I definitely, um, was able to get along in the village once I was placed.

[Assistant] That's great. Talk a little bit about where you grew up. Your parents were immigrants to the United States?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] All the Spanish was just gone. Um, I think I would have had to put in work for language anywhere I went.

[Assistant] Did you ever really learn Chichewa?

[User] Chichewa. I, I had never learned it before. I had never learned anything outside of the romance languages. Um, I actually took to it pretty well. I think I really challenged myself to speak with my host family and to practice however much I could. Um, I scored intermediate high on the proficiency test, so I definitely, um, was able to get along in the village once I was placed.

[Assistant] That's great. Talk a little bit about where you grew up. Your parents were immigrants to the United States?

[User] My dad was.

[Assistant] Oh, your dad.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Chichewa. I, I had never learned it before. I had never learned anything outside of the romance languages. Um, I actually took to it pretty well. I think I really challenged myself to speak with my host family and to practice however much I could. Um, I scored intermediate high on the proficiency test, so I definitely, um, was able to get along in the village once I was placed.

[Assistant] That's great. Talk a little bit about where you grew up. Your parents were immigrants to the United States?

[User] My dad was.

[Assistant] Oh, your dad.

[User] Yep. I'm from outside of Boston, born and raised there. My dad was born and raised in Tanzania, and he moved to the country when he was 18 to kind of put himself through college here. And then my mom is from New York, so it's very interesting family dynamics. I think there are a lot of different, um, different ways that my upbringing influenced my commitment to, um, to this type of work specifically and to, you know, I really was committed to giving two years of, at least two years of my life to, um, giving back in, like, such, such a sustainable way.

[Assistant] So were your parents happy when you joined the Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My dad was.

[Assistant] Oh, your dad.

[User] Yep. I'm from outside of Boston, born and raised there. My dad was born and raised in Tanzania, and he moved to the country when he was 18 to kind of put himself through college here. And then my mom is from New York, so it's very interesting family dynamics. I think there are a lot of different, um, different ways that my upbringing influenced my commitment to, um, to this type of work specifically and to, you know, I really was committed to giving two years of, at least two years of my life to, um, giving back in, like, such, such a sustainable way.

[Assistant] So were your parents happy when you joined the Peace Corps?

[User] It took some convincing, I think. I think they eventually understood. But as I think a lot of people, um, might react, their first thoughts were why? Why do you want to?

[Assistant] Why don't you get a job? Why don't you go to grad school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yep. I'm from outside of Boston, born and raised there. My dad was born and raised in Tanzania, and he moved to the country when he was 18 to kind of put himself through college here. And then my mom is from New York, so it's very interesting family dynamics. I think there are a lot of different, um, different ways that my upbringing influenced my commitment to, um, to this type of work specifically and to, you know, I really was committed to giving two years of, at least two years of my life to, um, giving back in, like, such, such a sustainable way.

[Assistant] So were your parents happy when you joined the Peace Corps?

[User] It took some convincing, I think. I think they eventually understood. But as I think a lot of people, um, might react, their first thoughts were why? Why do you want to?

[Assistant] Why don't you get a job? Why don't you go to grad school?

[User] We put you through school. Why? Why are you going to volunteer for two years? I think unfortunately, that's how a lot of people see it. Or, um, if they have, if they're not in my family, they're saying, well, good for you. You can go. Um. I think they saw how much I, like, how excited I was, how much I loved it, and were happy for me to have that experience. Um, I think they were also happy for me to come home. I, um, I was medically separated a few months into service, so my official close of service was January 2017. Um, my colleagues actually, or my, um, the rest of my cohort, the ones who were still there, just had their close of service conference. So I, um, there was a lot of service that I didn't get to, to give or to partake in. Um.

[Assistant] So maybe let's start at the beginning and then you can talk about your evacuation as well and that whole experience. Um, so in college, you knew you were going to Malawi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It took some convincing, I think. I think they eventually understood. But as I think a lot of people, um, might react, their first thoughts were why? Why do you want to?

[Assistant] Why don't you get a job? Why don't you go to grad school?

[User] We put you through school. Why? Why are you going to volunteer for two years? I think unfortunately, that's how a lot of people see it. Or, um, if they have, if they're not in my family, they're saying, well, good for you. You can go. Um. I think they saw how much I, like, how excited I was, how much I loved it, and were happy for me to have that experience. Um, I think they were also happy for me to come home. I, um, I was medically separated a few months into service, so my official close of service was January 2017. Um, my colleagues actually, or my, um, the rest of my cohort, the ones who were still there, just had their close of service conference. So I, um, there was a lot of service that I didn't get to, to give or to partake in. Um.

[Assistant] So maybe let's start at the beginning and then you can talk about your evacuation as well and that whole experience. Um, so in college, you knew you were going to Malawi?

[User] Well, I knew I was going to Ecuador.

[Assistant] Ecuador and then, then to Malawi. Um, what was the training? Where did you meet up with others? What was the training like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We put you through school. Why? Why are you going to volunteer for two years? I think unfortunately, that's how a lot of people see it. Or, um, if they have, if they're not in my family, they're saying, well, good for you. You can go. Um. I think they saw how much I, like, how excited I was, how much I loved it, and were happy for me to have that experience. Um, I think they were also happy for me to come home. I, um, I was medically separated a few months into service, so my official close of service was January 2017. Um, my colleagues actually, or my, um, the rest of my cohort, the ones who were still there, just had their close of service conference. So I, um, there was a lot of service that I didn't get to, to give or to partake in. Um.

[Assistant] So maybe let's start at the beginning and then you can talk about your evacuation as well and that whole experience. Um, so in college, you knew you were going to Malawi?

[User] Well, I knew I was going to Ecuador.

[Assistant] Ecuador and then, then to Malawi. Um, what was the training? Where did you meet up with others? What was the training like?

[User] We utilized Facebook primarily in order to introduce ourselves to the other group members. Um.

[Assistant] How many were there in your group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I knew I was going to Ecuador.

[Assistant] Ecuador and then, then to Malawi. Um, what was the training? Where did you meet up with others? What was the training like?

[User] We utilized Facebook primarily in order to introduce ourselves to the other group members. Um.

[Assistant] How many were there in your group?

[User] For Ecuador, there were supposed to be, I think it was like 50 or 60. Um, the Facebook page was pretty active because, especially because we were learning Spanish. So some of our assignments were post a video in Spanish, introducing yourself. Um, and I think that helped just to kind of calm a little bit of my nerves initially. Malawi, our initial cohort was 14, 15 maybe. Um, very, very small. And I think because of that, there wasn't as much interaction before we left. In my group, there were two other people who also were supposed to be in Ecuador and then got reassigned to Malawi. So at least I was familiar with a couple of people. But, um, yeah, it's just interesting, I think because we were a smaller group, we didn't need to talk as much before, but we immediately grew close during training.

[Assistant] So where did you meet up? What? So where did you fly to? Did you meet in this country or did you just meet in Malawi?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We utilized Facebook primarily in order to introduce ourselves to the other group members. Um.

[Assistant] How many were there in your group?

[User] For Ecuador, there were supposed to be, I think it was like 50 or 60. Um, the Facebook page was pretty active because, especially because we were learning Spanish. So some of our assignments were post a video in Spanish, introducing yourself. Um, and I think that helped just to kind of calm a little bit of my nerves initially. Malawi, our initial cohort was 14, 15 maybe. Um, very, very small. And I think because of that, there wasn't as much interaction before we left. In my group, there were two other people who also were supposed to be in Ecuador and then got reassigned to Malawi. So at least I was familiar with a couple of people. But, um, yeah, it's just interesting, I think because we were a smaller group, we didn't need to talk as much before, but we immediately grew close during training.

[Assistant] So where did you meet up? What? So where did you fly to? Did you meet in this country or did you just meet in Malawi?

[User] We did. We met in Philadelphia for the first night, um, the very like initial training. And then we flew out of JFK all together. Um, and. I'm trying. I know we were in South Africa. I can't recall where our first layover was, but, um, so we had the plane ride all together and we're kind of through it for this first couple of days.

[Assistant] And what happened when you got in country? What was the orientation like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I, I didn't have. So I'm not sure how, um, the application might vary for someone who is initially selected from Malawi. My background, I had had some brief tutoring experience where I had worked with some children before in school settings. Um, nothing too substantial in terms of being a teacher, but I think that was pretty common in Malawi. I think it mostly was people who had had an interest working with kids, or who maybe had studied, um, English in school. Um, the core training took place over the three months of pre- service training, where we took our first look at the Malawian curriculum, took a look at the, at the books, um. And a lot of just discussing teaching methods and that type of environment. No matter what I think, um, there were some people in my group who had had teaching experience, but no teaching.

[Assistant] So you all stayed together for three months in, in country before you went out to your villages, is that it?

[User] We were in the same host village, but each staying with a different family.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] So we were. We met every day from 7:30 to 4:30 for training, would split up into language groups, um, during that time. But we saw each other every day for those three months. Um, but it was up to each of us to kind of go back to each of our families and to make the most of that time with them as well. Um, I think it was a little introduction to being on our own in, in a village, but having the support for those initial months. Um. But because we were such a small group, it helped to have other people there. We, we grew close during that time.

[Assistant] So did you think that worked well? Did it ease your anxiety about being in a village?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So we were. We met every day from 7:30 to 4:30 for training, would split up into language groups, um, during that time. But we saw each other every day for those three months. Um, but it was up to each of us to kind of go back to each of our families and to make the most of that time with them as well. Um, I think it was a little introduction to being on our own in, in a village, but having the support for those initial months. Um. But because we were such a small group, it helped to have other people there. We, we grew close during that time.

[Assistant] So did you think that worked well? Did it ease your anxiety about being in a village?

[User] It definitely eased, it eased the anxiety I had. I don't think I was too concerned about being in a village. Um, once I got was placed in my site, I was thrilled to, to kind of be able to, um, go out and meet people and really, um, make it a home. I tried that kind of from the beginning when I moved, but being in the village was nice because we could help each other. I think for the language especially, that, that was a huge anxiety for everyone. It was a new language for all of us. So having people who are also studying who we could practice with and be beginners with.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Before we went home and practiced with fluent Chichewa speakers, um, that was nice. And then just having that support network, I think, it was important for us to establish that because we were a small group. So we were spread all over the country. And I think when you don't see people regularly, it's important to like still feel that closeness with them. Um, in service especially, it's, um.

[Assistant] So did you stay in, once you were in your villages, we'll get to that, did you stay in touch with each other? Or how did you stay in touch with each other?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I had a cell phone. We had.

[Assistant] Did you take your computer with you?

[User] I did. I didn't really use my computer, but, um, I had a smartphone, so I was able to look up definitions and poems and stuff like that that I ended up using in my teaching as well. Um, I don't know, again, how that would have looked. I think I probably wasn't as creative as I would have been if I didn't have access to that. It certainly, it changed a lot of aspects. It was also interesting because a lot of other people in the village, despite how rural we were and how impoverished the region or the, um, area I was in was, a lot of people did have phones and had social media, and it was interesting being in that type of environment. And, um.

[Assistant] So different than the '60s when we were.

[User] Right. Yeah, I think, I, um. I would write letters home sometimes and, but never really within country. I started. So I went on a two week training while I was in service and met volunteers from across the continent of Africa, and I actually started being a pen pal with one of them who was serving in Guinea. But yeah, there wasn't much letter writing. I think a lot of people had cell phone service. Some had to travel a bit to get cell phone service, but it definitely was something that was expected of us. Um, the Peace Corps, the staff, they, that's how they got in touch with us. We had forms to submit online. We had, um, people would call us and we would go over what was going on at sites. But so I think it, um.

[Assistant] So that's how they stayed in touch with you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I didn't really use my computer, but, um, I had a smartphone, so I was able to look up definitions and poems and stuff like that that I ended up using in my teaching as well. Um, I don't know, again, how that would have looked. I think I probably wasn't as creative as I would have been if I didn't have access to that. It certainly, it changed a lot of aspects. It was also interesting because a lot of other people in the village, despite how rural we were and how impoverished the region or the, um, area I was in was, a lot of people did have phones and had social media, and it was interesting being in that type of environment. And, um.

[Assistant] So different than the '60s when we were.

[User] Right. Yeah, I think, I, um. I would write letters home sometimes and, but never really within country. I started. So I went on a two week training while I was in service and met volunteers from across the continent of Africa, and I actually started being a pen pal with one of them who was serving in Guinea. But yeah, there wasn't much letter writing. I think a lot of people had cell phone service. Some had to travel a bit to get cell phone service, but it definitely was something that was expected of us. Um, the Peace Corps, the staff, they, that's how they got in touch with us. We had forms to submit online. We had, um, people would call us and we would go over what was going on at sites. But so I think it, um.

[Assistant] So that's how they stayed in touch with you.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, did you have to, I've heard from some people that they had to call in every day. Did you have to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. Yeah, I think, I, um. I would write letters home sometimes and, but never really within country. I started. So I went on a two week training while I was in service and met volunteers from across the continent of Africa, and I actually started being a pen pal with one of them who was serving in Guinea. But yeah, there wasn't much letter writing. I think a lot of people had cell phone service. Some had to travel a bit to get cell phone service, but it definitely was something that was expected of us. Um, the Peace Corps, the staff, they, that's how they got in touch with us. We had forms to submit online. We had, um, people would call us and we would go over what was going on at sites. But so I think it, um.

[Assistant] So that's how they stayed in touch with you.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, did you have to, I've heard from some people that they had to call in every day. Did you have to do that?

[User] We didn't have to do that. I think that only came up when there was an issue or we had reached out to them, but there wasn't anything that was like, we need to make sure you're okay, so check in at this time. Um, at least while I was there, there was nothing like that. Um.

[Assistant] So you, so you went through the training. And then talk a little bit about assignment to the town you were in and how you got there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
It was interesting and definitely something I picked up on right away. But the, the village itself, the people were, they were aware of like life going on outside. They were aware of all of these nice fancy cars, the Peace Corps Land Range Rovers, Land Rovers, um, Land Rovers coming through every day. Malawi draws an insane amount of aid workers and aid money. So, um, you definitely see all of those foreigners coming through. And, um, I think that changed the nature of it. There was influence from, from the city. There was influence from other parts of the country in ways that maybe like a more rural village wouldn't have.

But it also was sad because it was an extremely impoverished village. So my students and other people in town, they couldn't afford to go take a minibus to the market. Um, and it especially came up because as a high school teacher, you're working with people who might want to work or, or hopefully would want to work and kind of embrace those opportunities, but they can't afford the transportation to get to the interview. So, um.

[Assistant] Were they all in agriculture or what? What did people do in this town?

[User] Primarily agriculture, um. I think I'm going to get this statistic wrong. But the vast, vast majority of Malawi's economy as a whole is subsistence farming, and that was definitely evident in the village. Um, there were, there were a lot of churches there. So, um, and a couple of, there was the one school. But, um, I think people like primarily were agriculture, subsistence farmers.

[Assistant] And how big was this town?

[User] Um, it was a couple of thousand people, I believe. Um.

[Assistant] What did it have, paved streets? Did it have?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Primarily agriculture, um. I think I'm going to get this statistic wrong. But the vast, vast majority of Malawi's economy as a whole is subsistence farming, and that was definitely evident in the village. Um, there were, there were a lot of churches there. So, um, and a couple of, there was the one school. But, um, I think people like primarily were agriculture, subsistence farmers.

[Assistant] And how big was this town?

[User] Um, it was a couple of thousand people, I believe. Um.

[Assistant] What did it have, paved streets? Did it have?

[User] No, just, it just had the main road which was paved. Everything else was dirt. Um.

[Assistant] And any indoor plumbing anywhere?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, it was a couple of thousand people, I believe. Um.

[Assistant] What did it have, paved streets? Did it have?

[User] No, just, it just had the main road which was paved. Everything else was dirt. Um.

[Assistant] And any indoor plumbing anywhere?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Any electricity, no?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, just, it just had the main road which was paved. Everything else was dirt. Um.

[Assistant] And any indoor plumbing anywhere?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Any electricity, no?

[User] There was some electricity. Um, our little, like, market area, a lot of them had lights on the outside, but. And I had electricity in my house. There were blackouts more often than not. So it wasn't working. Um, but there were some people that had electricity. I don't know of anyone who had, um, who had like a toilet or indoor plumbing or anything. Um, we used what was called a chimbudzi, but, um.

[Assistant] I have to ask, what is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right? Um, yeah, I guess had just. And it's, it's interesting for even Americans to think about a young person kind of going off and, um, and spending two years in a different place like that. But in Mphomwa, the village specifically, I think it was definitely a shock to a lot of people. The volunteer I replaced was a little bit older. He, um, he had more of a peer to peer relationship with the other teachers, was, was friendly with them in a way that I never would have been able to. Um, so I did feel a bit of an oddball in the school environment. I, um, I tried to, you know, stick up for myself and try to, um, engage in conversation and, like, use, try and help them and use them as a resource to help me as a teacher. But it did affect me, um. I felt pretty lonely in that environment.

[Assistant] Were you able to make any friends at all?

[User] I would say, um, not peers my own age. I enjoyed speaking with the students. I enjoyed, um, because we were all in the village together. Like I would see students all, all over, um, they knew where I lived. So I think I was around other people, and, um, my neighbors had kids that were running, little kids that were running around all the time. I was definitely surrounded by other people, but I wouldn't say I had the, the types of friendships that you would find back home or, um, potentially in other, um, other villages. That's not to say that wouldn't have happened eventually, I think just initially, um.

[Assistant] So how long were you actually in the village?

[User] I was there from August to November. Um.

[Assistant] So not very long at all.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I would say, um, not peers my own age. I enjoyed speaking with the students. I enjoyed, um, because we were all in the village together. Like I would see students all, all over, um, they knew where I lived. So I think I was around other people, and, um, my neighbors had kids that were running, little kids that were running around all the time. I was definitely surrounded by other people, but I wouldn't say I had the, the types of friendships that you would find back home or, um, potentially in other, um, other villages. That's not to say that wouldn't have happened eventually, I think just initially, um.

[Assistant] So how long were you actually in the village?

[User] I was there from August to November. Um.

[Assistant] So not very long at all.

[User] Not very long. It was just coming up on the end of my, let's see, the end of my three-ish months in site. Um, and so, again, I was new. People didn't know me, weren't used to a female volunteer there. So I think that is hopefully something that would have changed. But for those first few months, it was, it was hard.

[Assistant] Did you talk to the mothers of your students?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was there from August to November. Um.

[Assistant] So not very long at all.

[User] Not very long. It was just coming up on the end of my, let's see, the end of my three-ish months in site. Um, and so, again, I was new. People didn't know me, weren't used to a female volunteer there. So I think that is hopefully something that would have changed. But for those first few months, it was, it was hard.

[Assistant] Did you talk to the mothers of your students?

[User] I did, um. I think even other women, um, had a lot of the same reactions that my male counterparts had in the school in that, um, when, when a lot of them were 23, they had had kids and were running a household. And, um, there was definitely that divide. Um, I think people always welcomed me and were always eager to, to talk and to, um, be friendly. But, um, and so I did, I did try to get out and meet people as much as I could. I think, um, there just were a lot of cultural differences that I couldn't get past with the limited knowledge of the language that I had initially.

[Assistant] And I forgot to ask, what grade did you teach?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not very long. It was just coming up on the end of my, let's see, the end of my three-ish months in site. Um, and so, again, I was new. People didn't know me, weren't used to a female volunteer there. So I think that is hopefully something that would have changed. But for those first few months, it was, it was hard.

[Assistant] Did you talk to the mothers of your students?

[User] I did, um. I think even other women, um, had a lot of the same reactions that my male counterparts had in the school in that, um, when, when a lot of them were 23, they had had kids and were running a household. And, um, there was definitely that divide. Um, I think people always welcomed me and were always eager to, to talk and to, um, be friendly. But, um, and so I did, I did try to get out and meet people as much as I could. I think, um, there just were a lot of cultural differences that I couldn't get past with the limited knowledge of the language that I had initially.

[Assistant] And I forgot to ask, what grade did you teach?

[User] I teach in the secondary school. So, um, the equivalent of ninth, 10th, and 11th grade. Forms one, two, and three.

[Assistant] And how far advanced were your students in English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, um. I think even other women, um, had a lot of the same reactions that my male counterparts had in the school in that, um, when, when a lot of them were 23, they had had kids and were running a household. And, um, there was definitely that divide. Um, I think people always welcomed me and were always eager to, to talk and to, um, be friendly. But, um, and so I did, I did try to get out and meet people as much as I could. I think, um, there just were a lot of cultural differences that I couldn't get past with the limited knowledge of the language that I had initially.

[Assistant] And I forgot to ask, what grade did you teach?

[User] I teach in the secondary school. So, um, the equivalent of ninth, 10th, and 11th grade. Forms one, two, and three.

[Assistant] And how far advanced were your students in English?

[User] English was a difficult subject. Um, the main issue was that there just weren't enough books. There weren't resources. So our classes, I had at least 100 in each class and we would have four books. Um, and I mean that, that poses challenges in and of itself. But, um, the language. People couldn't understand my accent, which I understand. Um.

[Assistant] Why is that? Had they been taught by Brits? No, they had a Peace Corps, American Peace Corps as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] English was a difficult subject. Um, the main issue was that there just weren't enough books. There weren't resources. So our classes, I had at least 100 in each class and we would have four books. Um, and I mean that, that poses challenges in and of itself. But, um, the language. People couldn't understand my accent, which I understand. Um.

[Assistant] Why is that? Had they been taught by Brits? No, they had a Peace Corps, American Peace Corps as well.

[User]
They, they had. I think he had taught a different subject. So maybe learning the, the English text and grammar was different. But, um, just like the American accent in general, we tend to speak faster because we're comfortable with English. Um, it. And they have a test at the end of form four or like at the end of high school that tests very specifically based on the curriculum, um, text-based questions, questions that they are supposed to learn through school. So a lot of, a lot of the teaching methods that they were used to was kind of rote memorization. Um, so again, maybe they weren't used to my style of teaching also.

Um, I think. I tried my best and I, I think that's all we can really do. But, um, I did really enjoy speaking with students outside of class, as I mentioned. I think that was my way of really connecting with students, because in that, on that one on one or small group setting, you can, you can see when they don't understand, you can explain it in a different way. But in such a large classroom, you're not reaching everyone. You're probably not reaching most students. Um, and it was, it was a limited time that you were in a classroom. So it's, it's hard to kind of meet all of those needs.

[Assistant] So you've mentioned several times that you left, um, in January. You said you were in the village till November.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, what happened to you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
They, they had. I think he had taught a different subject. So maybe learning the, the English text and grammar was different. But, um, just like the American accent in general, we tend to speak faster because we're comfortable with English. Um, it. And they have a test at the end of form four or like at the end of high school that tests very specifically based on the curriculum, um, text-based questions, questions that they are supposed to learn through school. So a lot of, a lot of the teaching methods that they were used to was kind of rote memorization. Um, so again, maybe they weren't used to my style of teaching also.

Um, I think. I tried my best and I, I think that's all we can really do. But, um, I did really enjoy speaking with students outside of class, as I mentioned. I think that was my way of really connecting with students, because in that, on that one on one or small group setting, you can, you can see when they don't understand, you can explain it in a different way. But in such a large classroom, you're not reaching everyone. You're probably not reaching most students. Um, and it was, it was a limited time that you were in a classroom. So it's, it's hard to kind of meet all of those needs.

[Assistant] So you've mentioned several times that you left, um, in January. You said you were in the village till November.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Um, what happened to you?

[User] I. So between the end of November, I left like right around Thanksgiving, and when I officially closed of service in January, I had been in Washington, D.C.

[Assistant] Oh, I see.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] For three months?

[Assistant] That I don't know exactly, for about three months. Um, and people were, quote, deselected, kicked out of the program. Did Peace Corps know about your drinking and about your, as you say, your demons?

[User]
I, I think they. We did like a brief alcohol training in country during those three months of training. It came to light at that time, and I was always honest about it, that my history with drinking had looked like that. Um, and by that I mean unhealthy. Um, but, you know, I was coming from a college setting immediately to being in service. So in my mind, it was easy to say it was the context that led to my drinking this way. And so while we were in training, it was very, I think there had been issues with previous groups with drinking and drinking in or around the village. It was kind of ingrained in us from the beginning. You can't drink while you're staying with a family. It's not appropriate, um, especially for women, female volunteers. It wasn't culturally appropriate.

So those three months there weren't any issues. You know, I never I never wanted to jeopardize my stay there. So, um, it was once I got to site and was on my own that they started creeping up again. All of those, those issues that I had tried to, you know, suppress and that I thought would be different in a different place. Um, you know, I truly thought once I was doing work that I loved and once I was in a new environment, I, I would outgrow that phase. And it wasn't true, or it wasn't the reality. So, um.

[Assistant] What's interesting, you identified it. Peace Corps staff didn't identify.

[User] I think.

[Assistant] That it was affecting your, you know, your performance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think.

[Assistant] That it was affecting your, you know, your performance.

[User] Yeah, I, I was scared, honestly, because I knew. I, I had spent a lot of years, like, wondering if it was a problem and then I was scared to kind of be in that environment where I, I was living alone for the first time. I was the only American within, you know, 45 minutes in any direction. So I was the only person holding myself accountable. And that scared me. I didn't trust myself to be doing that when, um, you know, I was making poor decisions also and.

[Assistant] It's great that you were self aware and were able to, to do that.

[User] Mm hmm, thank you.

[Assistant] Lots of people wouldn't, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I, I was scared, honestly, because I knew. I, I had spent a lot of years, like, wondering if it was a problem and then I was scared to kind of be in that environment where I, I was living alone for the first time. I was the only American within, you know, 45 minutes in any direction. So I was the only person holding myself accountable. And that scared me. I didn't trust myself to be doing that when, um, you know, I was making poor decisions also and.

[Assistant] It's great that you were self aware and were able to, to do that.

[User] Mm hmm, thank you.

[Assistant] Lots of people wouldn't, right?

[User] Mm hmm. I, um, and again, I was, when I reached out to the medical staff, they did give me the option of you can stay in country. We'll talk about ways that you can mitigate risks and try not to drink and that kind of stuff. Or you can, what'd they say, it was nip it in the bud and go back and seek treatment. Um, I, I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. I needed the support. I didn't even know what that support would look like or how. You know, I certainly didn't foresee myself staying sober, um, after I came back, but I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it in country. Fortunately, I have been sober since, um, my last drink was actually on my flight home on my way to treatment. So. So far.

[Assistant] So you've been in treatment all this time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm, thank you.

[Assistant] Lots of people wouldn't, right?

[User] Mm hmm. I, um, and again, I was, when I reached out to the medical staff, they did give me the option of you can stay in country. We'll talk about ways that you can mitigate risks and try not to drink and that kind of stuff. Or you can, what'd they say, it was nip it in the bud and go back and seek treatment. Um, I, I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. I needed the support. I didn't even know what that support would look like or how. You know, I certainly didn't foresee myself staying sober, um, after I came back, but I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it in country. Fortunately, I have been sober since, um, my last drink was actually on my flight home on my way to treatment. So. So far.

[Assistant] So you've been in treatment all this time?

[User] No, I was just in treatment for those six months, but I've stayed sober since. Um.

[Assistant] And how did your family deal with all of this?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. I, um, and again, I was, when I reached out to the medical staff, they did give me the option of you can stay in country. We'll talk about ways that you can mitigate risks and try not to drink and that kind of stuff. Or you can, what'd they say, it was nip it in the bud and go back and seek treatment. Um, I, I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. I needed the support. I didn't even know what that support would look like or how. You know, I certainly didn't foresee myself staying sober, um, after I came back, but I just knew I wouldn't have been able to do it in country. Fortunately, I have been sober since, um, my last drink was actually on my flight home on my way to treatment. So. So far.

[Assistant] So you've been in treatment all this time?

[User] No, I was just in treatment for those six months, but I've stayed sober since. Um.

[Assistant] And how did your family deal with all of this?

[User] Um. It was, again, it was interesting circumstances, because on the one hand, I think they were happy to have me back. I think, um, they felt safer with me back, even though I, I wanted to be Malawi and I felt safe in Malawi. I think, um, you know, when, when they couldn't see what my life was like there, the worries came out. So they.

[Assistant] Did they know that you had a drinking problem before you left?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I was just in treatment for those six months, but I've stayed sober since. Um.

[Assistant] And how did your family deal with all of this?

[User] Um. It was, again, it was interesting circumstances, because on the one hand, I think they were happy to have me back. I think, um, they felt safer with me back, even though I, I wanted to be Malawi and I felt safe in Malawi. I think, um, you know, when, when they couldn't see what my life was like there, the worries came out. So they.

[Assistant] Did they know that you had a drinking problem before you left?

[User]
No, I. Or I guess as I've grown more comfortable with it, they have also come to see it. Um, it's such an interesting disease because I was able to perform well in school. I was accepted to the Peace Corps. I was, I had these opportunities. Um, so I wouldn't say I look like the alcoholic that a lot of people expect. And I do think that other Peace Corps volunteers have similar, similar experiences. There was actually another volunteer from another African country who was in treatment with me at the same time. We both were medically evacuated during the same few weeks. It is unfortunately something that does affect volunteers, um, whether it be substance use or other mental health.

But um, so my family has come to accept it and they do support me and are, um, crucial in my recovery. But initially it took a lot of, I guess, as you say, like self-awareness. I knew that even if I didn't know what was going to come, I knew that what had led me to that point wasn't okay, and I wasn't willing to kind of take it.

[Assistant] Do something about it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. It was, again, it was interesting circumstances, because on the one hand, I think they were happy to have me back. I think, um, they felt safer with me back, even though I, I wanted to be Malawi and I felt safe in Malawi. I think, um, you know, when, when they couldn't see what my life was like there, the worries came out. So they.

[Assistant] Did they know that you had a drinking problem before you left?

[User]
No, I. Or I guess as I've grown more comfortable with it, they have also come to see it. Um, it's such an interesting disease because I was able to perform well in school. I was accepted to the Peace Corps. I was, I had these opportunities. Um, so I wouldn't say I look like the alcoholic that a lot of people expect. And I do think that other Peace Corps volunteers have similar, similar experiences. There was actually another volunteer from another African country who was in treatment with me at the same time. We both were medically evacuated during the same few weeks. It is unfortunately something that does affect volunteers, um, whether it be substance use or other mental health.

But um, so my family has come to accept it and they do support me and are, um, crucial in my recovery. But initially it took a lot of, I guess, as you say, like self-awareness. I knew that even if I didn't know what was going to come, I knew that what had led me to that point wasn't okay, and I wasn't willing to kind of take it.

[Assistant] Do something about it.

[User] Yeah, take it day by day.

[Assistant] So you came back. You stayed in a hotel. You were in treatment, in January that ended.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
No, I. Or I guess as I've grown more comfortable with it, they have also come to see it. Um, it's such an interesting disease because I was able to perform well in school. I was accepted to the Peace Corps. I was, I had these opportunities. Um, so I wouldn't say I look like the alcoholic that a lot of people expect. And I do think that other Peace Corps volunteers have similar, similar experiences. There was actually another volunteer from another African country who was in treatment with me at the same time. We both were medically evacuated during the same few weeks. It is unfortunately something that does affect volunteers, um, whether it be substance use or other mental health.

But um, so my family has come to accept it and they do support me and are, um, crucial in my recovery. But initially it took a lot of, I guess, as you say, like self-awareness. I knew that even if I didn't know what was going to come, I knew that what had led me to that point wasn't okay, and I wasn't willing to kind of take it.

[Assistant] Do something about it.

[User] Yeah, take it day by day.

[Assistant] So you came back. You stayed in a hotel. You were in treatment, in January that ended.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And then what happened?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, take it day by day.

[Assistant] So you came back. You stayed in a hotel. You were in treatment, in January that ended.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And then what happened?

[User] And then they booked a flight for me to go back to Boston. And at that point, um, I was no longer, I was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. I had ten sessions of readjustment counseling, I think, um, I. That was my last connection to Peace Corps. Um.

[Assistant] Does everybody get that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] And then what happened?

[User] And then they booked a flight for me to go back to Boston. And at that point, um, I was no longer, I was a returned Peace Corps volunteer. I had ten sessions of readjustment counseling, I think, um, I. That was my last connection to Peace Corps. Um.

[Assistant] Does everybody get that?

[User]
Everybody gets three. Any volunteer can get three. People who are separated for mental health concerns, or I think who expressed mental health concerns at the end of service can, are eligible for up to ten. Um, and so I was in touch in terms of like the paperwork, submitting that kind of stuff. And then um, there hasn't, yeah, that that was the end of my service.

I have, I've stayed in touch with my other, the other volunteers and actually I touched base with the director of the Peace Corps in Malawi. She's, she, um. I guess to backtrack that week between when we made the plans for me to go back to treatment and when I was actually on the plane, I stayed with the director at her house in Malawi and, um, like her and her daughter. It was over Thanksgiving and I didn't have, um, people to spend it with. And we celebrated Thanksgiving together. And so I've been, um, able to touch base with her a bit, which is nice as well. Um.

[Assistant] Um, did, you sound positive about the role of Peace Corps staff played in this whole, um, episode. Do you have any comments on that? Because there, you know, there have been comments about Peace Corps medical staff not necessarily always being helpful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
I get a lot of, a lot of surprised react people. Um. Just fascinated by the concept of, of signing on for two years of service in a different country where you don't know the language. Everything that drew me to it, you know? Um, I enjoy those conversations because no matter how other people feel about it, I really did, um, I believe in Peace Corps' approach. And I believe that volunteers can be successful. Um, I. I can't say how, I'm still so torn about how I feel about my service. Um, you know, who knows?

As I said, I wasn't able to teach for the full year. But, you know, I would like to think that maybe one of those relationships might have affected a student or a teacher or a neighbor. You know, I don't know, but I do believe that every volunteer that goes has something to offer, and. I forget what the question was. I just went on a ramble.

[Assistant] Uh. I forgot as well. But, but it had an effect on you, clearly.

[User] It did. I, um.

[Assistant] And it's having a ripple effect on how you talk about the world and Peace Corps to other people.

[User] Mm hmm. I actually, I did apply to go back since. Since I've been back, um, I reapplied to Peace Corps. I went through the selection process. I was actually accepted. And at that time I was told I wouldn't have been medically cleared, which I guess most, most of me knew. Um. They look for three years of sobriety for applicants. Um.

[Assistant] And it would have been a hard thing for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It did. I, um.

[Assistant] And it's having a ripple effect on how you talk about the world and Peace Corps to other people.

[User] Mm hmm. I actually, I did apply to go back since. Since I've been back, um, I reapplied to Peace Corps. I went through the selection process. I was actually accepted. And at that time I was told I wouldn't have been medically cleared, which I guess most, most of me knew. Um. They look for three years of sobriety for applicants. Um.

[Assistant] And it would have been a hard thing for you.

[User] I think it would have been, but I would have at least had the tools to, to, um. I didn't have the tools before because I had never had to have the tools. Whereas, you know, I would have come in with a year, a year and a half of sobriety, not as much as they look for, obviously, but I really did believe that I would have had the tools form, the tools built, this, you know, plan that could have helped me when I was in. I would have been in.

[Assistant] Well, that's interesting. It's three years because you were, because you were evacuated or you hadn't, you know, you encountered this while you were in Peace Corps. But there really was no discussion of that before you went in, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Mm hmm. I actually, I did apply to go back since. Since I've been back, um, I reapplied to Peace Corps. I went through the selection process. I was actually accepted. And at that time I was told I wouldn't have been medically cleared, which I guess most, most of me knew. Um. They look for three years of sobriety for applicants. Um.

[Assistant] And it would have been a hard thing for you.

[User] I think it would have been, but I would have at least had the tools to, to, um. I didn't have the tools before because I had never had to have the tools. Whereas, you know, I would have come in with a year, a year and a half of sobriety, not as much as they look for, obviously, but I really did believe that I would have had the tools form, the tools built, this, you know, plan that could have helped me when I was in. I would have been in.

[Assistant] Well, that's interesting. It's three years because you were, because you were evacuated or you hadn't, you know, you encountered this while you were in Peace Corps. But there really was no discussion of that before you went in, right?

[User] Well, actually, so as part of the medical clearance process for any applicant, I believe it's, they look for three years. They ask if there's a history of, yeah, substance abuse or if there's a.

[Assistant] Oh, they do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I think it would have been, but I would have at least had the tools to, to, um. I didn't have the tools before because I had never had to have the tools. Whereas, you know, I would have come in with a year, a year and a half of sobriety, not as much as they look for, obviously, but I really did believe that I would have had the tools form, the tools built, this, you know, plan that could have helped me when I was in. I would have been in.

[Assistant] Well, that's interesting. It's three years because you were, because you were evacuated or you hadn't, you know, you encountered this while you were in Peace Corps. But there really was no discussion of that before you went in, right?

[User] Well, actually, so as part of the medical clearance process for any applicant, I believe it's, they look for three years. They ask if there's a history of, yeah, substance abuse or if there's a.

[Assistant] Oh, they do?

[User] Substance use diagnosis, disorder diagnosis. Um, and.

[Assistant] You just hadn't had a diagnosis.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Substance use diagnosis, disorder diagnosis. Um, and.

[Assistant] You just hadn't had a diagnosis.

[User] Yeah. I didn't know I had a, or I didn't, um. Yeah. I had never been diagnosed before, and. Yes, I would have gone to another country in Africa where, um. Again, it was for the best. I think that was another instance where what I wanted so desperately didn't match up with the reality. Um, and I do think, um, I do think the guidelines for medical clearance are in place for a reason because it is such, um, such a different environment.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] No one knows until they're there. But it, um. Yeah, I think that just goes to show that I really did want to, to give back in a way that I. Yeah.

[Assistant] And if you end up being sober for the rest of your life, that has a major impact.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I didn't know I had a, or I didn't, um. Yeah. I had never been diagnosed before, and. Yes, I would have gone to another country in Africa where, um. Again, it was for the best. I think that was another instance where what I wanted so desperately didn't match up with the reality. Um, and I do think, um, I do think the guidelines for medical clearance are in place for a reason because it is such, um, such a different environment.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] No one knows until they're there. But it, um. Yeah, I think that just goes to show that I really did want to, to give back in a way that I. Yeah.

[Assistant] And if you end up being sober for the rest of your life, that has a major impact.

[User] Yeah. There's always time down the road to to go back.

[Assistant] To do it again. Great. So do you have any other thoughts about your whole experience or the impact of, of Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No one knows until they're there. But it, um. Yeah, I think that just goes to show that I really did want to, to give back in a way that I. Yeah.

[Assistant] And if you end up being sober for the rest of your life, that has a major impact.

[User] Yeah. There's always time down the road to to go back.

[Assistant] To do it again. Great. So do you have any other thoughts about your whole experience or the impact of, of Peace Corps?

[User]
Oh man, that's a loaded question. Um, I really am so excited about this project because I do feel like it's. It's an opportunity that I wish more people had, but that I know, um, it does take a really special person to, to make a successful service. Um. And I'm so grateful for the opportunities that Peace Corps gave me to not only to recognize what I needed to do for like, my, my own health. You know, I don't know what would have happened if I had never been in Malawi and experienced, um, my alcoholism there. But, um, it shaped my, my perspective in a way that I know now like how I want to be able to give back and how I want to continue doing that.

Um, no matter where I am, I think that remembering like, what, what life was like and what those conversations were like and the people who influenced my stay while I was there and my life since, remembering that stuff I do here could affect, could affect them. Stuff that's happening in policy affects them, um, even if we don't see it every day. And I think, um. Again, it's, it's something I wish a lot more people had awareness of.

[Assistant] And if you become a human rights, international human rights lawyer, you'll be knee deep in all of that, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. There's always time down the road to to go back.

[Assistant] To do it again. Great. So do you have any other thoughts about your whole experience or the impact of, of Peace Corps?

[User]
Oh man, that's a loaded question. Um, I really am so excited about this project because I do feel like it's. It's an opportunity that I wish more people had, but that I know, um, it does take a really special person to, to make a successful service. Um. And I'm so grateful for the opportunities that Peace Corps gave me to not only to recognize what I needed to do for like, my, my own health. You know, I don't know what would have happened if I had never been in Malawi and experienced, um, my alcoholism there. But, um, it shaped my, my perspective in a way that I know now like how I want to be able to give back and how I want to continue doing that.

Um, no matter where I am, I think that remembering like, what, what life was like and what those conversations were like and the people who influenced my stay while I was there and my life since, remembering that stuff I do here could affect, could affect them. Stuff that's happening in policy affects them, um, even if we don't see it every day. And I think, um. Again, it's, it's something I wish a lot more people had awareness of.

[Assistant] And if you become a human rights, international human rights lawyer, you'll be knee deep in all of that, right?

[User] We'll see. Knock on wood. But yes, hopefully.

[Assistant] Where are you going to go to law school?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh man, that's a loaded question. Um, I really am so excited about this project because I do feel like it's. It's an opportunity that I wish more people had, but that I know, um, it does take a really special person to, to make a successful service. Um. And I'm so grateful for the opportunities that Peace Corps gave me to not only to recognize what I needed to do for like, my, my own health. You know, I don't know what would have happened if I had never been in Malawi and experienced, um, my alcoholism there. But, um, it shaped my, my perspective in a way that I know now like how I want to be able to give back and how I want to continue doing that.

Um, no matter where I am, I think that remembering like, what, what life was like and what those conversations were like and the people who influenced my stay while I was there and my life since, remembering that stuff I do here could affect, could affect them. Stuff that's happening in policy affects them, um, even if we don't see it every day. And I think, um. Again, it's, it's something I wish a lot more people had awareness of.

[Assistant] And if you become a human rights, international human rights lawyer, you'll be knee deep in all of that, right?

[User] We'll see. Knock on wood. But yes, hopefully.

[Assistant] Where are you going to go to law school?

[User] I'll be at Boston University.

[Assistant] Oh, great. So you'll be home as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We'll see. Knock on wood. But yes, hopefully.

[Assistant] Where are you going to go to law school?

[User] I'll be at Boston University.

[Assistant] Oh, great. So you'll be home as well.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Sounds, sounds good. My daughter's a lawyer. My husband's a lawyer. One of her best friends is an international human rights lawyer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I'll be at Boston University.

[Assistant] Oh, great. So you'll be home as well.

[User] Mm hmm.

[Assistant] Sounds, sounds good. My daughter's a lawyer. My husband's a lawyer. One of her best friends is an international human rights lawyer.

[User] Oh, really?

[Assistant] So lots of lawyers.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, really?

[Assistant] So lots of lawyers.

[User] Unfortunately, there's a huge need for those, those types of lawyers too, but.

[Assistant] Unfortunately.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. It was a great interview. Thank you so much.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, I always loved math and science going through school. I just took as many math and science classes as I could through junior high and high school. We got a brochure mailed to the house from Purdue University [Lafayette, Indiana] about a week-long seminar for high school students to come in and learn about engineering. My parents managed to scrape up the funds to send me off to Purdue for a week, and I went. It was perfect. I could make money, which was kind of an important thing, to be able to support myself, and it melded the math and science together perfectly. That’s when I decided to become an engineer, as a junior in high school.

[Assistant] Did you know any other women engineers?

[User] Nope. Well, there were other girls there, yes, but I didn’t really know any other women engineers. That, to me, wasn’t a consideration or anything. It was just like, well that’s what I want to do, so I was going to go off and do it.

[Assistant] We’ve talked to other women, and sometimes in the engineering field, they’ve had people—high school counselors, college counselors—that have tried to almost discourage them. Did you ever run into any of that?

[User] No, although I think my mom was a little puzzled by what I wanted to go off and do. But no, I never got any discouragement. I only got positive reinforcement from the teachers I had in science in particular in high school.

[Assistant] After you got your degree, then did you come to NASA right after that? If so, how did that happen? How did you hear about NASA?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Nope. Well, there were other girls there, yes, but I didn’t really know any other women engineers. That, to me, wasn’t a consideration or anything. It was just like, well that’s what I want to do, so I was going to go off and do it.

[Assistant] We’ve talked to other women, and sometimes in the engineering field, they’ve had people—high school counselors, college counselors—that have tried to almost discourage them. Did you ever run into any of that?

[User] No, although I think my mom was a little puzzled by what I wanted to go off and do. But no, I never got any discouragement. I only got positive reinforcement from the teachers I had in science in particular in high school.

[Assistant] After you got your degree, then did you come to NASA right after that? If so, how did that happen? How did you hear about NASA?

[User] I remember watching the moon landing when I was 12—Apollo 11. I said, “Someday, I’d like to work for NASA.” I never imagined that that would happen, but I ended up marrying a man whose father worked here for NASA. I didn’t come immediately, because I graduated in August of ’79, and started in January of ’80, but he sent us applications, because JSC was going through a transition back then, and it turns out they were looking for minority engineers. Women were minority engineers at the time, so I filled out the application and I got hired. That was like a dream come true.

[Assistant] Did you have to come down to interview, or were you just hired?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, although I think my mom was a little puzzled by what I wanted to go off and do. But no, I never got any discouragement. I only got positive reinforcement from the teachers I had in science in particular in high school.

[Assistant] After you got your degree, then did you come to NASA right after that? If so, how did that happen? How did you hear about NASA?

[User] I remember watching the moon landing when I was 12—Apollo 11. I said, “Someday, I’d like to work for NASA.” I never imagined that that would happen, but I ended up marrying a man whose father worked here for NASA. I didn’t come immediately, because I graduated in August of ’79, and started in January of ’80, but he sent us applications, because JSC was going through a transition back then, and it turns out they were looking for minority engineers. Women were minority engineers at the time, so I filled out the application and I got hired. That was like a dream come true.

[Assistant] Did you have to come down to interview, or were you just hired?

[User] No, I actually interviewed over the phone, because we were living in New Orleans [Louisiana] at the time.

[Assistant] When they hired you, what did they tell you you were going to be doing, or what area did you start out in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I remember watching the moon landing when I was 12—Apollo 11. I said, “Someday, I’d like to work for NASA.” I never imagined that that would happen, but I ended up marrying a man whose father worked here for NASA. I didn’t come immediately, because I graduated in August of ’79, and started in January of ’80, but he sent us applications, because JSC was going through a transition back then, and it turns out they were looking for minority engineers. Women were minority engineers at the time, so I filled out the application and I got hired. That was like a dream come true.

[Assistant] Did you have to come down to interview, or were you just hired?

[User] No, I actually interviewed over the phone, because we were living in New Orleans [Louisiana] at the time.

[Assistant] When they hired you, what did they tell you you were going to be doing, or what area did you start out in?

[User] It was ED. Experiment Systems Division. The first thing they had me do was actually in the Aircraft Instrumentation Research Program, where they had WB-57s—which were the great big airplanes with the droopy wings—and they would fly over different parts of the country taking scientific photographs. My job was to write a computer program, when I first came here. They had the thing running on an old Tektronix graphics computer. They wanted to transition it to a Hewlett-Packard computer. I wrote a program that basically did the same thing on the Hewlett-Packard as they did on the Tektronix, which was to take different features from those photographs and be able to correlate those with map coordinates.\n\n Now I’m not a computer programmer, and when I got done with that, I said, “I don’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t sign up to be a programmer.”

[Assistant] How did you learn to do that? As like you said, you’re not a computer programmer. How did you figure out how to do that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I actually interviewed over the phone, because we were living in New Orleans [Louisiana] at the time.

[Assistant] When they hired you, what did they tell you you were going to be doing, or what area did you start out in?

[User] It was ED. Experiment Systems Division. The first thing they had me do was actually in the Aircraft Instrumentation Research Program, where they had WB-57s—which were the great big airplanes with the droopy wings—and they would fly over different parts of the country taking scientific photographs. My job was to write a computer program, when I first came here. They had the thing running on an old Tektronix graphics computer. They wanted to transition it to a Hewlett-Packard computer. I wrote a program that basically did the same thing on the Hewlett-Packard as they did on the Tektronix, which was to take different features from those photographs and be able to correlate those with map coordinates.\n\n Now I’m not a computer programmer, and when I got done with that, I said, “I don’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t sign up to be a programmer.”

[Assistant] How did you learn to do that? As like you said, you’re not a computer programmer. How did you figure out how to do that?

[User] I just sat down with the manuals, and started playing around, and learning how to write machine code. I just did it.

[Assistant] Were there other women in the area when you came in to work in that division? Were there other women in that division?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was ED. Experiment Systems Division. The first thing they had me do was actually in the Aircraft Instrumentation Research Program, where they had WB-57s—which were the great big airplanes with the droopy wings—and they would fly over different parts of the country taking scientific photographs. My job was to write a computer program, when I first came here. They had the thing running on an old Tektronix graphics computer. They wanted to transition it to a Hewlett-Packard computer. I wrote a program that basically did the same thing on the Hewlett-Packard as they did on the Tektronix, which was to take different features from those photographs and be able to correlate those with map coordinates.\n\n Now I’m not a computer programmer, and when I got done with that, I said, “I don’t want to do that anymore. I didn’t sign up to be a programmer.”

[Assistant] How did you learn to do that? As like you said, you’re not a computer programmer. How did you figure out how to do that?

[User] I just sat down with the manuals, and started playing around, and learning how to write machine code. I just did it.

[Assistant] Were there other women in the area when you came in to work in that division? Were there other women in that division?

[User] There weren’t too many that I recall. I think it was pretty much all guys. After a year and a half of being in that division, I went to the Propulsion Power Division [EP], and at that point, that division had hired a lot more women, so there were quite a few women engineers in EP at the time. There had been a push in the 1980 timeframe to hire more women engineers, so there was an influx. Not to say that we ever became a majority.

[Assistant] But you weren’t the only one.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I just sat down with the manuals, and started playing around, and learning how to write machine code. I just did it.

[Assistant] Were there other women in the area when you came in to work in that division? Were there other women in that division?

[User] There weren’t too many that I recall. I think it was pretty much all guys. After a year and a half of being in that division, I went to the Propulsion Power Division [EP], and at that point, that division had hired a lot more women, so there were quite a few women engineers in EP at the time. There had been a push in the 1980 timeframe to hire more women engineers, so there was an influx. Not to say that we ever became a majority.

[Assistant] But you weren’t the only one.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Talk about that next assignment with the Propulsion and Power Division. That was right when the [Space] Shuttle was beginning to fly at that point, in 1981.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There weren’t too many that I recall. I think it was pretty much all guys. After a year and a half of being in that division, I went to the Propulsion Power Division [EP], and at that point, that division had hired a lot more women, so there were quite a few women engineers in EP at the time. There had been a push in the 1980 timeframe to hire more women engineers, so there was an influx. Not to say that we ever became a majority.

[Assistant] But you weren’t the only one.

[User] No, no.

[Assistant] Talk about that next assignment with the Propulsion and Power Division. That was right when the [Space] Shuttle was beginning to fly at that point, in 1981.

[User] Yes, yes. That was pretty exciting. I ended up in the Power Branch. I was assigned to work on the fuel cells and the cryogenic storage system. The PRSD, Power Reactant Storage and Distribution system, I think is what it stands for. I was learning that system, and I actually worked the night shift on the second flight. That was one of the flights where the fuel cell had failed, so that mission was cut short by several days. I worked on that for a number of years.

[Assistant] By working on the night shift, were you in the support room?