[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, actually I should mention, that's not true. Because when I first arrived there, there was another volunteer there, but he ended up staying for just about six months. Um. Uh, and then moving to a different site. So. So when I first started, he was there all alone. He had been there for six months previous to me, alone. And then when I arrived, then, uh, we were there in the town together. He was a health volunteer, and I was an agriculture volunteer.

[Assistant] Did you share a house?

[User] We didn't. He helped me find a house.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And he actually, we, we were in kind of different parts of town because we wanted to, we wanted to have some independence and not be, uh. Um. We wanted to be able to. The town was kind of divided into a couple of different neighborhoods, so that meant he could have kind of focus on his neighborhood, and I'd be in my neighborhood. And, um, but we did end up spending a lot of time together, and it was a bit of a struggle for, for both of us to kind of get established. So.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. I would think it would be helpful in some ways to have another American that you could, um, sort of pore things over with in the beginning when you're just getting started.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We didn't. He helped me find a house.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] And he actually, we, we were in kind of different parts of town because we wanted to, we wanted to have some independence and not be, uh. Um. We wanted to be able to. The town was kind of divided into a couple of different neighborhoods, so that meant he could have kind of focus on his neighborhood, and I'd be in my neighborhood. And, um, but we did end up spending a lot of time together, and it was a bit of a struggle for, for both of us to kind of get established. So.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. I would think it would be helpful in some ways to have another American that you could, um, sort of pore things over with in the beginning when you're just getting started.

[User] Yeah, it kind of, you know, it's hard to say. In some ways it was good. In some ways it was a distraction because it was easy. It was easy to go over there and hang out with him and.

[Assistant] Have a beer. Or maybe you couldn't have a beer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had, they had some money. They had, uh, received a loan. So they had bought some wheelbarrows and shovels and watering cans and things and some seeds. Um, and so I was supposed to work with the government extension agent to help these women do their gardening, and but I couldn't figure out why they why the women weren't going to the garden, and, um, it wasn't clear to me what they wanted to grow. And there were all these animals around, cows and sheep that were being herded around that would eat anything that was there. And there was no fence around the garden, you know.

[Assistant] Oh, oh dear.

[User] So there were just all these problems and nobody seemed to be doing anything. And I didn't feel like I, it was my place was to start, you know, them. I kind of wanted to be working on something that was kind of already in motion and supporting it. Um, so it took me a long time to sort of untangle the story of what was going on.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you're a man, and it's a women's organization.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] That seems to be one more complicating factor.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right.

[Assistant] That seems to be one more complicating factor.

[User] Right, right. And, and, um. Yeah. I mean, without going into all the gory details of it, I mean, the women's association had been formed by a man, um, who was kind of working the system. Um, and so I, I ended up kind of interacting with him. Uh, and then he would, and he was a mover and shaker, and he, like, he was a teacher, and he created a library and filled it with books. And so he had done a lot of good stuff for the town. But he's also very political and, um, so, so, I mean, I, um, it took me a while to get to the point where people understood who I was. They, all they saw was this white guy showed up and is living in, you know, has a, has a couple of rooms in one of the buildings in town and nobody knew why I was there, and they were very suspicious.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Um, and so it took me, I think, six months before I was able to make contact with this guy, the librarian, who, he like, he sent people over, like he was kind of sending spies over to find out who I was and ask me questions. And then they'd go back and report to him, and then.

[Assistant] Oh, so, so Peace Corps did not introduce you to this guy and sort of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right, right. And, and, um. Yeah. I mean, without going into all the gory details of it, I mean, the women's association had been formed by a man, um, who was kind of working the system. Um, and so I, I ended up kind of interacting with him. Uh, and then he would, and he was a mover and shaker, and he, like, he was a teacher, and he created a library and filled it with books. And so he had done a lot of good stuff for the town. But he's also very political and, um, so, so, I mean, I, um, it took me a while to get to the point where people understood who I was. They, all they saw was this white guy showed up and is living in, you know, has a, has a couple of rooms in one of the buildings in town and nobody knew why I was there, and they were very suspicious.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Um, and so it took me, I think, six months before I was able to make contact with this guy, the librarian, who, he like, he sent people over, like he was kind of sending spies over to find out who I was and ask me questions. And then they'd go back and report to him, and then.

[Assistant] Oh, so, so Peace Corps did not introduce you to this guy and sort of?

[User] No, they, they introduced me to the agriculture extension worker, which was logical. He was, he was the person who was responsible for, for kind of managing the government's intervention with these women's associations. But he wasn't, he wasn't very effective for, for a number of reasons, not because he was incompetent or anything, but just because it was a really difficult environment. And so, so this librarian, and the agricultural, the extension agent was placed. He was a government worker and he wasn't from the town. He was placed there from somebody, you know.

[Assistant] He'd come in from elsewhere.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and so it took me, I think, six months before I was able to make contact with this guy, the librarian, who, he like, he sent people over, like he was kind of sending spies over to find out who I was and ask me questions. And then they'd go back and report to him, and then.

[Assistant] Oh, so, so Peace Corps did not introduce you to this guy and sort of?

[User] No, they, they introduced me to the agriculture extension worker, which was logical. He was, he was the person who was responsible for, for kind of managing the government's intervention with these women's associations. But he wasn't, he wasn't very effective for, for a number of reasons, not because he was incompetent or anything, but just because it was a really difficult environment. And so, so this librarian, and the agricultural, the extension agent was placed. He was a government worker and he wasn't from the town. He was placed there from somebody, you know.

[Assistant] He'd come in from elsewhere.

[User] Yeah. This was his government job. And so, so he, he, he knew, he knew the local people and he understood the politics better than I did. But he wasn't the best, he, I don't know. He, he didn't, he didn't end up playing the role of my guide, um, for whatever reason. And so this other guy, the librarian, uh.

[Assistant] Who was really key. And it would have taken you a while to figure out that it's the librarian that's the guy that you need to communicate with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Like I can look, go on Google Maps and see the trees that, you know, some of which I've planted, are there. And the garden, I don't think, ever became a garden. Um, but those trees are really important because they use them. They're fast growing trees and they, they cut the limbs and use them for firewood and then.

[Assistant] Ah.

[User] Um, so, you know, it would have made more sense to maybe have a little tree plantation there than a, than a garden. But anyway, um, about a year into my service, I was getting, I mean, well, from, from the beginning to through about ten months, I was having a really hard time, uh, because nobody was, I didn't have anything to do. And, and, you know, it took, it took, it wasn't until 6 or 8 months into my service that these women came over to ask me to help work with their women's group. And so in between, up until that time, I was just incredibly bored and, like, trying to figure out what to do and going around and meeting people and trying to, you know, just trying to figure out what's going on.

[Assistant] And then after the other Peace Corps volunteer left, you're all alone up there.

[User] I didn't have any.

[Assistant] Trying to figure out. Yeah, yeah. That's a, uh, very psychologically excruciating situation to be in, I would think.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, so, you know, it would have made more sense to maybe have a little tree plantation there than a, than a garden. But anyway, um, about a year into my service, I was getting, I mean, well, from, from the beginning to through about ten months, I was having a really hard time, uh, because nobody was, I didn't have anything to do. And, and, you know, it took, it took, it wasn't until 6 or 8 months into my service that these women came over to ask me to help work with their women's group. And so in between, up until that time, I was just incredibly bored and, like, trying to figure out what to do and going around and meeting people and trying to, you know, just trying to figure out what's going on.

[Assistant] And then after the other Peace Corps volunteer left, you're all alone up there.

[User] I didn't have any.

[Assistant] Trying to figure out. Yeah, yeah. That's a, uh, very psychologically excruciating situation to be in, I would think.

[User] Yeah, I mean, I did, I didn't, I made friends with the guy who lived. I was, I was living in this two story mud building, which is amazing, like hand built, uh, kind of mud structure that they have.

[Assistant] And, and of course you don't, do you have a phone?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't have any.

[Assistant] Trying to figure out. Yeah, yeah. That's a, uh, very psychologically excruciating situation to be in, I would think.

[User] Yeah, I mean, I did, I didn't, I made friends with the guy who lived. I was, I was living in this two story mud building, which is amazing, like hand built, uh, kind of mud structure that they have.

[Assistant] And, and of course you don't, do you have a phone?

[User] Oh, no. No. There was a phone at the post office. That was the one phone in town. I think the hospital had a phone. Um, but yeah, there was a solar array with batteries that powered the phone. And there was this tall antenna that that, uh, it was. So it was, it wasn't. There wasn't a phone line. It was through radio signals and or microwave or whatever it was.

[Assistant] So communication. To communicate with somebody, you had to go over to see them face to face.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. To communicate with, to communicate with anybody in town meant going over.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And if you think, you go to where you think they are. So if I wanted to meet with the librarian, I'd go to the library. And if he wasn't there, then I'd ask if anybody had seen them. And then, you know, walk around until I found him.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and then to communicate outside of Ansongo, I had a mailbox, so I wrote letters. Um, and then if I needed to communicate with the Peace Corps office in Bamako, then I could call them. But I had to go stand in the post office just where all the mailboxes were. And it was a very small room with the, with the postmaster standing there, and make my call.

[Assistant] Make your call.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And if you think, you go to where you think they are. So if I wanted to meet with the librarian, I'd go to the library. And if he wasn't there, then I'd ask if anybody had seen them. And then, you know, walk around until I found him.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and then to communicate outside of Ansongo, I had a mailbox, so I wrote letters. Um, and then if I needed to communicate with the Peace Corps office in Bamako, then I could call them. But I had to go stand in the post office just where all the mailboxes were. And it was a very small room with the, with the postmaster standing there, and make my call.

[Assistant] Make your call.

[User]
And the phone maybe would work or maybe not. So. Um, yeah. So yeah, communication was all, um, yeah. This was, I was probably the, in the last sort of group of volunteers that didn't have cell phones because by the time I left in 2000, then cell phones were starting to appear. Um, um.

So anyway, what I ended up, I ended up sort of deciding that what I wanted to focus on was, uh. I thought it was important that Peace Corps, Peace Corps was thinking about pulling out of the northern region because we were having such a hard time. And I thought, well, I didn't, there were, there had been three other volunteers before me, and then there were the two volunteers in my group. So that was five people who had just like invested a lot of energy, uh, in trying to make things work. And I didn't want to lose that. And so I, uh, talked to the Peace Corps director and said, you know, look, I think I'd really like to try to figure out how to fix it and make it possible for volunteers to be up here rather than, uh, just abandoning it. And so she said she said, okay, well. And she asked me if I would take that on, and I said that I would.

[Assistant] This was sort of the close to the year, end of the first year?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. It was in, yeah, around the, around my year.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] My year point, because I had kind of given myself an ultimatum at about 3 to 4 months. I had told myself that if by, if by the 10th month, I wasn't, like I gave myself a few things. I said if I didn't, if I didn't have friends and I didn't feel like I was doing something productive, then I would leave. And that kind of freed me up because I had been, I was just really anxious about, uh, how I was going to survive.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so, so by giving myself that out, you know, I was like, okay, I'm, I can leave if I, if I get, make it through those eight months and leave, then I don't get to feel bad about it. I just feel like I gave it a try.

[Assistant] Your best shot.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so, so by giving myself that out, you know, I was like, okay, I'm, I can leave if I, if I get, make it through those eight months and leave, then I don't get to feel bad about it. I just feel like I gave it a try.

[Assistant] Your best shot.

[User]
Right. And so. So then, uh, so it was in. And that kind of freed me up to think about different ways of making it work. And so, so it was kind of during that period that, as I was figuring out more about what was actually happening in the town and why, why people weren't interacting with me or didn't know who I was, and I started thinking about how to avoid that happening in the future and so on.

Um, so then, then in my, my second year, uh, in Ansongo then I ended up spending more time focusing on, on meeting with people and to talk to them about that. Like, you know, we'd like to, we'd like to keep. We, or, you know, asking them if they thought it would, Peace Corps, uh, Ansongo would be a good place for Peace Corps volunteers to be. And, uh, what, how, how they thought, what role Peace Corps should play. And so I was asking, asking people like the librarian and other leaders in the town and, and people who were working in the government agencies and sort of trying to trying to build a, a model for how.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Things could be better.

[Assistant] It almost sounds like that is critically necessary. And I wish that had happened before you got there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Right. And so. So then, uh, so it was in. And that kind of freed me up to think about different ways of making it work. And so, so it was kind of during that period that, as I was figuring out more about what was actually happening in the town and why, why people weren't interacting with me or didn't know who I was, and I started thinking about how to avoid that happening in the future and so on.

Um, so then, then in my, my second year, uh, in Ansongo then I ended up spending more time focusing on, on meeting with people and to talk to them about that. Like, you know, we'd like to, we'd like to keep. We, or, you know, asking them if they thought it would, Peace Corps, uh, Ansongo would be a good place for Peace Corps volunteers to be. And, uh, what, how, how they thought, what role Peace Corps should play. And so I was asking, asking people like the librarian and other leaders in the town and, and people who were working in the government agencies and sort of trying to trying to build a, a model for how.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Things could be better.

[Assistant] It almost sounds like that is critically necessary. And I wish that had happened before you got there.

[User] Right, right. And the thing is that the Peace Corps just isn't equipped to do that because they're based in Bamako. And they could send, they send people, you know, all the way out to Ansongo for a 1 or 2 day visit.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you can't, you can't figure things out that way.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Things could be better.

[Assistant] It almost sounds like that is critically necessary. And I wish that had happened before you got there.

[User] Right, right. And the thing is that the Peace Corps just isn't equipped to do that because they're based in Bamako. And they could send, they send people, you know, all the way out to Ansongo for a 1 or 2 day visit.

[Assistant] Yeah. But you can't, you can't figure things out that way.

[User] So, um, yeah. So, uh, then, um. Uh.

[Assistant] So you were meeting with the, the women's association and other people too?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, um, yeah. So, uh, then, um. Uh.

[Assistant] So you were meeting with the, the women's association and other people too?

[User] I met with women's associations and I, and then, you know, when I learned that there were all these really great gardens that were commercially successful gardens along the river, where the water, there was easy access to water. And, of course, most of those were, were men were, it was just like a guy had a piece of land on the river and became a gardener. And they had, they knew how to grow stuff in that climate. Um, and so I met with a lot of those gardeners to find out what they were doing. And then in the process learn more about sort of gender roles and like it, it was really not appropriate culturally for women to be gardening.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] There's a tradition against women, like handling hoes and things, you know, so.

[Assistant] Oh, my! Well, whose idea was it then that the women ought to have a gardening?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I met with women's associations and I, and then, you know, when I learned that there were all these really great gardens that were commercially successful gardens along the river, where the water, there was easy access to water. And, of course, most of those were, were men were, it was just like a guy had a piece of land on the river and became a gardener. And they had, they knew how to grow stuff in that climate. Um, and so I met with a lot of those gardeners to find out what they were doing. And then in the process learn more about sort of gender roles and like it, it was really not appropriate culturally for women to be gardening.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] There's a tradition against women, like handling hoes and things, you know, so.

[Assistant] Oh, my! Well, whose idea was it then that the women ought to have a gardening?

[User] Well, it's sort of an international idea about promoting women in development and the sort of, uh, general theory is if you teach a woman to grow food, then she'll feed her family, you know, and there's some logic to that in a general way.

[Assistant] But the women who lived in Ansongo might not have thought that was what they needed.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You know, and so this is something that you struggle with as a Peace Corps volunteer, because culturally, it's not, it's counter to what I feel that gender roles should be.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] But that's the way things were there. And so it was important for me to understand that and understand that, that, that's, that's what was going on. That's why the women who were in the gardening association were not physically strong enough to do the work because they were older women. And, um, uh, although they were plenty strong. They could do, they could pull water out of a well much better than I could. Um, and they, they weren't, uh. It wasn't culturally. I mean, they, they, they wove mats. So they were, they, they were a gardening group. But what they really did is they wove mats and that's how they ended up paying for their loan was not by selling produce from their garden, but by weaving mats and selling the mats.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And that that's something that they do traditionally. And so it made sense for them to do that. So um, so anyway, I did I did my best to try to get a better understanding of, of the situation of gardens in Ansongo. Uh, and then.

[Assistant] I want to interrupt you for just one minute. Um. Was, was the idea of gardening to provide, um, healthier nutrition for the families? Did they did, they need to grow? I'm not being able to, I can't talk. Um. Was the idea somehow to improve the nutrition that people had there, to start eating things that they didn't usually eat because they weren't being grown?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that that's something that they do traditionally. And so it made sense for them to do that. So um, so anyway, I did I did my best to try to get a better understanding of, of the situation of gardens in Ansongo. Uh, and then.

[Assistant] I want to interrupt you for just one minute. Um. Was, was the idea of gardening to provide, um, healthier nutrition for the families? Did they did, they need to grow? I'm not being able to, I can't talk. Um. Was the idea somehow to improve the nutrition that people had there, to start eating things that they didn't usually eat because they weren't being grown?

[User] Yeah, well, it wasn't, it wasn't very clear. I mean, there's two ways. There's two ways that a garden can be useful in that, in that environment, right? It can either be to grow healthy food for yourself and your family, or it can be as a way to make some money.

[Assistant] That's right.

[User] You grow, grow vegetables to sell in the market. And Ansongo had a weekly market and people came from all over the area and they sold, there was produce that they sold there. It was like onions, a lot of onions, some carrots and lettuce. And not the healthiest, like not the most vitamin rich vegetables, but that's what you could. Those were market vegetables that you could sell. Um, and it wasn't, I mean, there wasn't like a gardening program that had like a defined goal. And it was just kind of this vague idea that, that the bank, the, the, the small development banks that had been set up to provide loans for these kind of groups were under some national program that was driven by some international program, you know.

[Assistant] Ideas coming from the outside.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there were, there were, there were periodic interventions. Every once in a while a, a crew from some international NGO or something would come in and do a training about gardening or, you know, come to inspect the garden. Like that happened maybe once or twice when I was there. Um, but it never was clear to me, and certainly not to the women, you know, what the real purpose of the garden was.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] It was kind of something they were being asked to do in order to get this loan.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Um. So, um. Um, so yeah, in my second year, I kind of was spending more time, I'm sort of kind of going around and meeting with people. And I was also meeting with people in Gao because there was the one other volunteer in my cohort was in Gao, and she was also doing gardening, and she was having a bit of a easier time of it, just because Gao is a bigger city and there's more resources. Uh.

[Assistant] And she's a woman working with women?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um. So, um. Um, so yeah, in my second year, I kind of was spending more time, I'm sort of kind of going around and meeting with people. And I was also meeting with people in Gao because there was the one other volunteer in my cohort was in Gao, and she was also doing gardening, and she was having a bit of a easier time of it, just because Gao is a bigger city and there's more resources. Uh.

[Assistant] And she's a woman working with women?

[User] Yeah, yeah. I don't think she was having any better luck with the gardening association than I was, but she, um, she had made a friend with a woman who was a government agent who and had developed a good personal friendship with her. So that was helpful.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, but she wasn't, she wasn't, in terms of, like, what? She wasn't having any more success than I was in terms of, like, sort of providing technical support to a women's gardening association.

[Assistant] For probably the same reasons that you were running into these frustrating situations.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, yeah. I don't think she was having any better luck with the gardening association than I was, but she, um, she had made a friend with a woman who was a government agent who and had developed a good personal friendship with her. So that was helpful.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, but she wasn't, she wasn't, in terms of, like, what? She wasn't having any more success than I was in terms of, like, sort of providing technical support to a women's gardening association.

[Assistant] For probably the same reasons that you were running into these frustrating situations.

[User]
Right. So, so I was, I was going to Gao and talking to her as another Peace Corps volunteer and also meeting with people. So Gao was the regional capital. So talking to the people at the regional level about Peace Corps, and there are also some international NGOs that were, that had offices there. So I was meeting with them and kind of, kind of doing some networking, trying to figure out if it made sense for Peace Corps to continue staying there, and if it did, then how, how to go about it and identifying partners and so on.

And then when as that was happening, there was a huge rainstorm in Ansongo. It doesn't rain very often in that part of Mali, but when it does, there might be 1 or 2 rainstorms in a year. But there are these massive rainstorms, and they're usually preceded by a big dust storm. And, and, uh, um, and then this huge dump of rain and, and it just inundates everything. And, um, there had been a flood like that in Ansongo that had damaged a lot of houses, including the one that I lived in. Um, so I was.

[Assistant] Before you got there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Right. So, so I was, I was going to Gao and talking to her as another Peace Corps volunteer and also meeting with people. So Gao was the regional capital. So talking to the people at the regional level about Peace Corps, and there are also some international NGOs that were, that had offices there. So I was meeting with them and kind of, kind of doing some networking, trying to figure out if it made sense for Peace Corps to continue staying there, and if it did, then how, how to go about it and identifying partners and so on.

And then when as that was happening, there was a huge rainstorm in Ansongo. It doesn't rain very often in that part of Mali, but when it does, there might be 1 or 2 rainstorms in a year. But there are these massive rainstorms, and they're usually preceded by a big dust storm. And, and, uh, um, and then this huge dump of rain and, and it just inundates everything. And, um, there had been a flood like that in Ansongo that had damaged a lot of houses, including the one that I lived in. Um, so I was.

[Assistant] Before you got there?

[User] I was out of town. I was in Gao.

[Assistant] Oh, oh.

[User] And, and then heard that there had been this big rainstorm in Ansongo and, and so, uh, so then I had to go back down to Ansongo and get all my stuff moved out of my half-crumbled house and.

[Assistant] And how did you do this? How did you get from Gao, between Gao and Ansongo?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was out of town. I was in Gao.

[Assistant] Oh, oh.

[User] And, and then heard that there had been this big rainstorm in Ansongo and, and so, uh, so then I had to go back down to Ansongo and get all my stuff moved out of my half-crumbled house and.

[Assistant] And how did you do this? How did you get from Gao, between Gao and Ansongo?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] You're not using the Peace Corps vehicle, and now you're on your own?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And, and then heard that there had been this big rainstorm in Ansongo and, and so, uh, so then I had to go back down to Ansongo and get all my stuff moved out of my half-crumbled house and.

[Assistant] And how did you do this? How did you get from Gao, between Gao and Ansongo?

[User] Well.

[Assistant] You're not using the Peace Corps vehicle, and now you're on your own?

[User] Right. So typically, I would use, uh, the public transport, which which were these old '70s era Land Rovers pickup trucks that were, they, they'd stuff like 17 people into the back of.

[Assistant] Into the back of the pickup truck? Standing up or sitting down?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well.

[Assistant] You're not using the Peace Corps vehicle, and now you're on your own?

[User] Right. So typically, I would use, uh, the public transport, which which were these old '70s era Land Rovers pickup trucks that were, they, they'd stuff like 17 people into the back of.

[Assistant] Into the back of the pickup truck? Standing up or sitting down?

[User] Sitting all hunched over, scrunched on top of each other, along with all their sacks of whatever they were carrying.

[Assistant] So you might be sitting on top of a sack of something.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. So typically, I would use, uh, the public transport, which which were these old '70s era Land Rovers pickup trucks that were, they, they'd stuff like 17 people into the back of.

[Assistant] Into the back of the pickup truck? Standing up or sitting down?

[User] Sitting all hunched over, scrunched on top of each other, along with all their sacks of whatever they were carrying.

[Assistant] So you might be sitting on top of a sack of something.

[User] Yeah, yeah. And just scrunched in and can't move. And then on this, this horrible dirt road that had lots of sand patches and, and.

[Assistant] I can see the dust in your face.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So that would, and with luck, that would take two, 2.5 hours. It could take longer if the truck broke down.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User]
Um, and then, uh, I did. So Peace Corps was phasing out motorcycles during the time that I was there, but they, they had some motorcycles left over that they were, at the very end. They were sort of giving them out to some volunteers on a case by case basis. So they ended up giving me one because I was far away. But, but, uh, it was a hard road. It was, it was not. I had ridden motorcycles before and felt relatively comfortable on them, but I wasn't comfortable riding on, in that, these, these sand pits that were just, I mean, you had to be a really skilled rider to make it through those without falling. And um, so I, so I wasn't, um, and so somewhere in there, they gave me a motorcycle that I could use to go back and forth to Gao. So I think maybe on that trip I had ridden my motorcycle.

Um, but then when my house was damaged, then there was a Peace Corps, uh, vehicle that was stationed in Mopti, in that city midway between Bamako and Gao.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] And there was, there was a Peace Corps volunteer leader stationed there. So that's a third year volunteer who plays kind of a more of a leadership role, who, who, uh, was, had, was in charge of that vehicle and had a driver. And so he came up to help me when my house was, you know, uh, damaged. So, so.

[Assistant] Your house was damaged? In what way? It's a mud house.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And there was, there was a Peace Corps volunteer leader stationed there. So that's a third year volunteer who plays kind of a more of a leadership role, who, who, uh, was, had, was in charge of that vehicle and had a driver. And so he came up to help me when my house was, you know, uh, damaged. So, so.

[Assistant] Your house was damaged? In what way? It's a mud house.

[User] It's a mud house. So the foundation was, uh, got wet. And since it's just a mud foundation.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Then it, then the house. My house didn't completely collapse. A lot of houses did collapse, but it, it sort of, it. Some of the walls cracked and settled in. And so it was, it was no longer safe to be in and.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had all your stuff in there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's a mud house. So the foundation was, uh, got wet. And since it's just a mud foundation.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Then it, then the house. My house didn't completely collapse. A lot of houses did collapse, but it, it sort of, it. Some of the walls cracked and settled in. And so it was, it was no longer safe to be in and.

[Assistant] Yeah. And you had all your stuff in there.

[User] My stuff was all in there. So. Yeah. So the, so the.

[Assistant] I'm assuming you had no electricity?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] There was no electricity.

[Assistant] Right, okay.

[User] Yeah. Um, so the, the Peace Corps volunteer leader came up, came up and helped me with the Peace Corps vehicle and helped me get all my stuff out. Um, and then that my librarian friend helped me find another house to live in.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] Um, so I moved into that house, and then, another mud, mud house, and then, uh.

[Assistant] Did you have to pay for these, uh, for residing in these dwellings?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Um, so the, the Peace Corps volunteer leader came up, came up and helped me with the Peace Corps vehicle and helped me get all my stuff out. Um, and then that my librarian friend helped me find another house to live in.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] Um, so I moved into that house, and then, another mud, mud house, and then, uh.

[Assistant] Did you have to pay for these, uh, for residing in these dwellings?

[User] Um, yeah. Yeah. So we received a stipend from Peace Corps, which is I think it was roughly about $100 a month to cover our living expenses. And, um.

[Assistant] And out of that, you had to pay rent for?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, yeah. Yeah. So we received a stipend from Peace Corps, which is I think it was roughly about $100 a month to cover our living expenses. And, um.

[Assistant] And out of that, you had to pay rent for?

[User] No, I think, I guess that was in addition to rent. So we were allowed up to some amount of money for rent, depending on whether we were in a city or in a village. And so I was in a town. Um, it was a little different in different, depending on whether, like if you were in a village, then typically the villagers would build you a house and, and then, um, that would be their community contribution. And but in my case, I rented a house. And so the Peace Corps paid for the rent for my house, and it had to be within their requirements, however they determined that. And then there were some requirements, like the house was supposed to have mosquito netting or screens on the windows and things, even if that wasn't typical for the houses in that area. Um, so, so, yeah, the house. So I was renting that house. So when, when I moved out, then I just broke my lease and.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and rented another house from another landlord.

[Assistant] Did, um, before we go on with your work, but, uh, did you cook for yourself? How did you, how did you manage food?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, and rented another house from another landlord.

[Assistant] Did, um, before we go on with your work, but, uh, did you cook for yourself? How did you, how did you manage food?

[User] Um, well, I ended up. So the typical way, I don't know what's typical. In Mali what was typical is that you would set up an, make an arrangement with a family. Usually you would have, live in, in a family compound. Uh, and, and eat with the family.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Um, so I didn't do that, I was, I, so I did, I had different arrangements. So at first I was, I ate with the family that lived downstairs from me. So there were, the downstairs tenant was a policeman from a different part of Mali who lived, who was stationed in Ansongo. And he was a nice guy. So I just ate with him. Um, and I guess I paid. I can't remember if I paid him or not for that. This is Malian hospitality. It's like you feed strangers, so, you know, um. And the real trick for me, actually, was getting access to water, because the water came out of wells and the quality of water wasn't great. Um, and it's not appropriate for a man to pull water from a well. Um.

[Assistant] Oh, that's a woman's role.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, well, I ended up. So the typical way, I don't know what's typical. In Mali what was typical is that you would set up an, make an arrangement with a family. Usually you would have, live in, in a family compound. Uh, and, and eat with the family.

[Assistant] Uh huh.

[User] Um, so I didn't do that, I was, I, so I did, I had different arrangements. So at first I was, I ate with the family that lived downstairs from me. So there were, the downstairs tenant was a policeman from a different part of Mali who lived, who was stationed in Ansongo. And he was a nice guy. So I just ate with him. Um, and I guess I paid. I can't remember if I paid him or not for that. This is Malian hospitality. It's like you feed strangers, so, you know, um. And the real trick for me, actually, was getting access to water, because the water came out of wells and the quality of water wasn't great. Um, and it's not appropriate for a man to pull water from a well. Um.

[Assistant] Oh, that's a woman's role.

[User] Yeah. And so I had to, I struggled with that. I would, sometimes I would, and the guy downstairs had two wives and there was a well in the yard. And so sometimes I would wait until they were like, one of them went out to market and the other was inside doing something. And I would sneak out.

[Assistant] And you would draw the water for yourself?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. And so I had to, I struggled with that. I would, sometimes I would, and the guy downstairs had two wives and there was a well in the yard. And so sometimes I would wait until they were like, one of them went out to market and the other was inside doing something. And I would sneak out.

[Assistant] And you would draw the water for yourself?

[User] Draw water for myself.

[Assistant] Oh!

[User] And then eventually I.

[Assistant] Because I'm assuming you could not ask another man's wife to draw water for you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I could, I was supposed to ask.

[Assistant] Oh, really?

[User] I was supposed to ask them to do it. But it was a lot of work. It was like the wells were like 30 feet deep or 20 feet deep. So, so. And those women worked so hard. They, all day long they were cooking and pounding grain and, you know. And I was like, I don't, I don't, I. It wasn't culturally appropriate for me to think this or feel this at all, but I just didn't feel comfortable.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Asking, having her interrupt what she was doing. I mean, she probably would have felt honored to do it, you know. But, but I, I, it just, I was not comfortable with that. I just wanted to be able to pull my own water. I just wanted to do, you know, I'm an American, so I just wanted to be independent. Uh.

[Assistant] And then you would boil it, when you get it?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was supposed to ask them to do it. But it was a lot of work. It was like the wells were like 30 feet deep or 20 feet deep. So, so. And those women worked so hard. They, all day long they were cooking and pounding grain and, you know. And I was like, I don't, I don't, I. It wasn't culturally appropriate for me to think this or feel this at all, but I just didn't feel comfortable.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Asking, having her interrupt what she was doing. I mean, she probably would have felt honored to do it, you know. But, but I, I, it just, I was not comfortable with that. I just wanted to be able to pull my own water. I just wanted to do, you know, I'm an American, so I just wanted to be independent. Uh.

[Assistant] And then you would boil it, when you get it?

[User] No, because I didn't really have a way to boil.

[Assistant] Oh, you didn't have a little.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Asking, having her interrupt what she was doing. I mean, she probably would have felt honored to do it, you know. But, but I, I, it just, I was not comfortable with that. I just wanted to be able to pull my own water. I just wanted to do, you know, I'm an American, so I just wanted to be independent. Uh.

[Assistant] And then you would boil it, when you get it?

[User] No, because I didn't really have a way to boil.

[Assistant] Oh, you didn't have a little.

[User] I didn't have a.

[Assistant] Kerosene stove or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I didn't have a.

[Assistant] Kerosene stove or anything?

[User] No, I had, I had. I had a little, funny little stove that was like a wick. It was like a, it didn't work very well. Um, so I didn't really have a way to cook. Um. Uh, so we would, we would, we would run the water through a cloth to filter it, to get any large like cysts or anything like that out of it. And then we would put a couple drops of bleach in it. So that was how we treated the water. Um, and then I eventually, eventually there was a woman who lived across the street who I asked to draw water for me, and I paid her to do it. And so then I, then I felt I felt better about, okay, and I just had a schedule where she came in twice a week. And so this was just so I'd have water to drink in, in my apartment.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] But you ate your meals.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um.

[Assistant] But you ate your meals.

[User]
And so then I ate my meals with the family downstairs. And then when, when I started making friends with the librarian, then I wanted to eat my meals with him because he was he spoke Songhai with his family, and he was a local family. So hanging out with the policeman downstairs was fine, but he wasn't a local guy. And so. Um, so then I started going over to his house to, which was a little bit of a walk. And, you know, it was stressful for me. I, I, I would just go over there every day and wait and sit and sit in his compound, and he'd be doing whatever he was doing. He was always meeting with people, and the kids would be doing homework by lantern out in one part of the courtyard and the women would be cooking. He had two wives at that time.

Um, and I, you know, I would just kind of be sitting there not really being active and, and then part of the household and then, and then eventually he'd come over and sit with me and we'd chat. And I didn't always have a lot to talk about and, um, um. But, but, um, so that's how, that was how I ended up doing my food for the rest of the time that I was there.

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah.

[User] Um. And then eventually what happened is that that I was, I was, I was having some success. I was making some progress kind of figuring out how to, um, finding organizations that would host Peace Corps volunteers both in Ansongo and in Gao and, uh, piecing together like what, what should be involved in a training program. And I was, I was working with volunteers in other parts of the country. So as part of Peace Corps, you have these in-service trainings, they call them. So every, every six months or something.

[Assistant] Oh, you'd be called in to the capital city or someplace?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right. And we'd all meet up and it'd be a chance for everybody to share ideas. Yeah. And so I use those as opportunities to tell other volunteers about what was doing, what I was doing and get ideas from them.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And talk with the headquarters staff about it and check to see if they had, they supported the idea. And so eventually then at the end of my second year, I, uh, wanted to stay a third year to, to be able to like, get this set up. And so then I was given a position to be a Peace Corps volunteer leader and set up a new regional office in Gao that would be kind of in charge of coordinating what was happening in Gao and making sure that there was region specific training and all that kind of thing.

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah.

[User] And then I also set up sites for new volunteers, um, working, working with the Peace Corps staff in Bamako. So I spent my third year doing that. Um, so then, then I was, then I moved to Gao, to the regional capital. So this is a city of like 60,000 people.

[Assistant] Yeah. In your third year.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And then I also set up sites for new volunteers, um, working, working with the Peace Corps staff in Bamako. So I spent my third year doing that. Um, so then, then I was, then I moved to Gao, to the regional capital. So this is a city of like 60,000 people.

[Assistant] Yeah. In your third year.

[User] In my third year.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and, uh.

[Assistant] Did you, did you go home in between your second and third years, as some volunteers do?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In my third year.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, and, uh.

[Assistant] Did you, did you go home in between your second and third years, as some volunteers do?

[User] I did, I did. They, they, I got a paid trip, so I went home. I went back to the States, um, and there were a couple of weddings happening, and so I.

[Assistant] Timing was good. Yeah.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, I did. They, they, I got a paid trip, so I went home. I went back to the States, um, and there were a couple of weddings happening, and so I.

[Assistant] Timing was good. Yeah.

[User] Yeah. Um. Uh, so, yeah. Came home and, or flew back to Seattle, I guess, and bought a one of those Greyhound bus tickets where you can, it lasts a month or something.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And went to the various weddings around the country and visited friends and then, and then went back, um, to finish up my service.

[Assistant] So that third year you were mostly, um, working as Peace Corps staff almost? Although you're still a volunteer.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Um. Uh, so, yeah. Came home and, or flew back to Seattle, I guess, and bought a one of those Greyhound bus tickets where you can, it lasts a month or something.

[Assistant] Oh.

[User] And went to the various weddings around the country and visited friends and then, and then went back, um, to finish up my service.

[Assistant] So that third year you were mostly, um, working as Peace Corps staff almost? Although you're still a volunteer.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You're setting things up and facilitating things.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] You're setting things up and facilitating things.

[User] Yeah. So then I was focused on setting up. So we decided, we decided that we would, we would kind of restart the northern program and focus, stay in Gao and maybe some villages near in the immediate surrounding area of Gao so that the volunteers could be closer together. Because everybody seemed to agree that it made sense for volunteers to be close enough to each other that they could help each other out.

[Assistant] Okay.

[User] Kind of work more as a team.

[Assistant] So that brought an end to Peace Corps' presence in Ansongo.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] When I left Ansongo, we didn't, they didn't replace. In fact, we didn't. For that next round of volunteers, we took a break. So we didn't take, send new volunteers to the Gao region until we got the regional office set up.

[Assistant] Oh, good.

[User] And until, until we got some sites set up that were better organized.

[Assistant] Good, good.

[User] Um, and uh. And so then then. Yeah, I was going to meet then, you know, my third year, I was sort of meeting, going to meet with the governor, meeting with the mayor, meeting with the heads of all these NGOs that were headquartered in Gao, meeting with a lot of local small NGOs. Those were like young, recent college graduates who were coming back home and trying to get a career started. Some of them, a lot of real good energy people, motivated people to work with. And, and, um, meeting, going out to some of the outlying villages and meeting with the, the village leaders to talk to them about hosting volunteers and what it would mean. You know, it was like a lot of, a lot of meetings and back and forth discussions. And so I think I ended up setting up, um, like five sites. Uh, so then when that, when that cohort of volunteers arrived, then I was involved in their training a little bit. Um.

[Assistant] So they would have had some training in Bamako, and then they'd finish their training in Gao?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And until, until we got some sites set up that were better organized.

[Assistant] Good, good.

[User] Um, and uh. And so then then. Yeah, I was going to meet then, you know, my third year, I was sort of meeting, going to meet with the governor, meeting with the mayor, meeting with the heads of all these NGOs that were headquartered in Gao, meeting with a lot of local small NGOs. Those were like young, recent college graduates who were coming back home and trying to get a career started. Some of them, a lot of real good energy people, motivated people to work with. And, and, um, meeting, going out to some of the outlying villages and meeting with the, the village leaders to talk to them about hosting volunteers and what it would mean. You know, it was like a lot of, a lot of meetings and back and forth discussions. And so I think I ended up setting up, um, like five sites. Uh, so then when that, when that cohort of volunteers arrived, then I was involved in their training a little bit. Um.

[Assistant] So they would have had some training in Bamako, and then they'd finish their training in Gao?

[User] They did.

[Assistant] More site specific.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They did.

[Assistant] More site specific.

[User] We did, uh, we did a part of that three month initial three months training. There was like one week that you went to and did a onsite training. So we, we shipped a group of volunteers all the way up to Gao. So that was something that I didn't get.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, so they could come and see what it looked like and meet some of their partners. And, uh, so I was, I was organizing those, those trainings and, um, uh, it was fun. It was, I felt, it felt productive and it felt constructive. It felt like it was going to lead to something that, you know, I was hoping that it would sort of establish a more solid foundation for Peace Corps' presence in the region.

[Assistant] What a, what an interesting story and what a leap from your first few months were. It must have been so depressing when you couldn't figure out why things weren't happening. To in the end, um, being able to set up things so the new volunteers coming in wouldn't have to go through what you did.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We did, uh, we did a part of that three month initial three months training. There was like one week that you went to and did a onsite training. So we, we shipped a group of volunteers all the way up to Gao. So that was something that I didn't get.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] Um, so they could come and see what it looked like and meet some of their partners. And, uh, so I was, I was organizing those, those trainings and, um, uh, it was fun. It was, I felt, it felt productive and it felt constructive. It felt like it was going to lead to something that, you know, I was hoping that it would sort of establish a more solid foundation for Peace Corps' presence in the region.

[Assistant] What a, what an interesting story and what a leap from your first few months were. It must have been so depressing when you couldn't figure out why things weren't happening. To in the end, um, being able to set up things so the new volunteers coming in wouldn't have to go through what you did.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And that everything would be much more, people would be much more productive with their time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, so they could come and see what it looked like and meet some of their partners. And, uh, so I was, I was organizing those, those trainings and, um, uh, it was fun. It was, I felt, it felt productive and it felt constructive. It felt like it was going to lead to something that, you know, I was hoping that it would sort of establish a more solid foundation for Peace Corps' presence in the region.

[Assistant] What a, what an interesting story and what a leap from your first few months were. It must have been so depressing when you couldn't figure out why things weren't happening. To in the end, um, being able to set up things so the new volunteers coming in wouldn't have to go through what you did.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And that everything would be much more, people would be much more productive with their time.

[User] Yeah. And I think it's a real testament to the potential of Peace Corps. You know, not everybody has a great experience in Peace Corps and, and, but. But one of the things that that is possible when, when things work well is, is you can have a lot of creative latitude, you know. And so I had the support of the Peace Corps staff to sort of, um, pursue this idea and, and it allowed me to be creative and, and, um, feel, feel productive. And so I, um, I, uh, and. Yeah, like you say, to turn what started off as a really sort of difficult and challenging experience into one that that was very positive.

[Assistant] And satisfying and productive. Wonderful.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And that everything would be much more, people would be much more productive with their time.

[User] Yeah. And I think it's a real testament to the potential of Peace Corps. You know, not everybody has a great experience in Peace Corps and, and, but. But one of the things that that is possible when, when things work well is, is you can have a lot of creative latitude, you know. And so I had the support of the Peace Corps staff to sort of, um, pursue this idea and, and it allowed me to be creative and, and, um, feel, feel productive. And so I, um, I, uh, and. Yeah, like you say, to turn what started off as a really sort of difficult and challenging experience into one that that was very positive.

[Assistant] And satisfying and productive. Wonderful.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then your time in Peace Corps comes to an end. You've now had three years in Mali. And you've now got, um. You're still in music. Did you have your French horn with you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And then your time in Peace Corps comes to an end. You've now had three years in Mali. And you've now got, um. You're still in music. Did you have your French horn with you?

[User] I did. I did, yeah.

[Assistant] In Mali?

[User] I did, yeah. And I, I played it some, um. Yeah. One of my, one of my, uh, memories of that is of playing my horn when I was in Ansongo in that second story couple of rooms in the mud structure. And I was playing my horn, and one of the policemen's wives was downstairs sweeping the courtyard. So there's kind of the rhythm of the swish, swish, swish of her sweeping. And so and I was just kind of improvising and playing and then, and then I stopped and I realized that she was humming the tune that I was playing.

[Assistant] Oh, as she was sweeping.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did. I did, yeah.

[Assistant] In Mali?

[User] I did, yeah. And I, I played it some, um. Yeah. One of my, one of my, uh, memories of that is of playing my horn when I was in Ansongo in that second story couple of rooms in the mud structure. And I was playing my horn, and one of the policemen's wives was downstairs sweeping the courtyard. So there's kind of the rhythm of the swish, swish, swish of her sweeping. And so and I was just kind of improvising and playing and then, and then I stopped and I realized that she was humming the tune that I was playing.

[Assistant] Oh, as she was sweeping.

[User] Yeah. But yeah, I brought the horn and, and played it a little bit on and off while I was there.

[Assistant] Oh, terrific. Yeah. So. So here you are now. You must be 32 or so?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did, yeah. And I, I played it some, um. Yeah. One of my, one of my, uh, memories of that is of playing my horn when I was in Ansongo in that second story couple of rooms in the mud structure. And I was playing my horn, and one of the policemen's wives was downstairs sweeping the courtyard. So there's kind of the rhythm of the swish, swish, swish of her sweeping. And so and I was just kind of improvising and playing and then, and then I stopped and I realized that she was humming the tune that I was playing.

[Assistant] Oh, as she was sweeping.

[User] Yeah. But yeah, I brought the horn and, and played it a little bit on and off while I was there.

[Assistant] Oh, terrific. Yeah. So. So here you are now. You must be 32 or so?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And you've, you've got your music and you have your degree in electrical engineering, which wasn't that applicable after all, in, in Peace Corps work. And you've got some, uh, experience thinking about agriculture and gardening and, and not gardening and, um. How did all this pull together for what your choices were after Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. But yeah, I brought the horn and, and played it a little bit on and off while I was there.

[Assistant] Oh, terrific. Yeah. So. So here you are now. You must be 32 or so?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] And you've, you've got your music and you have your degree in electrical engineering, which wasn't that applicable after all, in, in Peace Corps work. And you've got some, uh, experience thinking about agriculture and gardening and, and not gardening and, um. How did all this pull together for what your choices were after Peace Corps?

[User] Um, well, I came back from Peace Corps sort of not knowing exactly what I wanted to do. I felt like I wanted to continue doing work abroad. Um, and so in my fashion, I sort of took some time off and traveled a little bit. Um, and. Um. I ended up, uh, I ended up kind of falling back into the work that I had gotten before Peace Corps, which is being a technical writer, which has nothing to do with any of this. Um, and it's sort of easy, easy work for me to get that, that pays well. So I was back in Seattle being a technical writer, and then I, um, I got laid off of my job and then that. So that forced me to sort of focus on finding another job. And I ended up getting a job, uh, at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, which, which is, does research on renewable energy. So this I'm finally getting to what my initial interest in all of this was.

[Assistant] That's right, you had said that you were thinking about renewable energy with your, um, degree in, uh, electricity.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, well, I came back from Peace Corps sort of not knowing exactly what I wanted to do. I felt like I wanted to continue doing work abroad. Um, and so in my fashion, I sort of took some time off and traveled a little bit. Um, and. Um. I ended up, uh, I ended up kind of falling back into the work that I had gotten before Peace Corps, which is being a technical writer, which has nothing to do with any of this. Um, and it's sort of easy, easy work for me to get that, that pays well. So I was back in Seattle being a technical writer, and then I, um, I got laid off of my job and then that. So that forced me to sort of focus on finding another job. And I ended up getting a job, uh, at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, which, which is, does research on renewable energy. So this I'm finally getting to what my initial interest in all of this was.

[Assistant] That's right, you had said that you were thinking about renewable energy with your, um, degree in, uh, electricity.

[User] So, so, what. Uh, so, so they had a small international program at the lab, and they were, they were very interested in my Peace Corps experience and in my, and in particularly in my sort of, uh, I don't know, call it grassroots level or my experience sort of on the ground because they were, they were all very familiar with sort of the bureaucratic high level workings of, of the energy part of international development. So they were, they were very interested in my experience, having seen what those programs look like on the ground.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so I think I was hired, uh, because of that. So I think that, that, um, that in a, in a, in a completely unpredictable way that Peace Corps experience gave me, um, some job experience that, that has been useful. Um.

[Assistant] What do you do now?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So, so, what. Uh, so, so they had a small international program at the lab, and they were, they were very interested in my Peace Corps experience and in my, and in particularly in my sort of, uh, I don't know, call it grassroots level or my experience sort of on the ground because they were, they were all very familiar with sort of the bureaucratic high level workings of, of the energy part of international development. So they were, they were very interested in my experience, having seen what those programs look like on the ground.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And so I think I was hired, uh, because of that. So I think that, that, um, that in a, in a, in a completely unpredictable way that Peace Corps experience gave me, um, some job experience that, that has been useful. Um.

[Assistant] What do you do now?

[User] Well, I still, I still work for the lab. I'm now a consultant, so I'm a freelancer. Um, and I do, I do software training, um, and I do a lot of the training. Uh, some of it, I've been doing international training. Um, so I continue to keep my foot in sort of doing international stuff. Um, so it's kind of loosely related. The software that I, I work with is software that like solar energy planners and engineers could use for building solar energy systems in Africa or somewhere else. So there's, there's a loose connection somewhere in there. Um.

[Assistant] Did your, uh, experience in, um, your three years in Mali somehow affect the way you view the world?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I think, you know, because I went a little bit older than a lot of my cohorts. I wasn't fresh out of college.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And because I had already lived in Africa and, um, it wasn't, as, I don't know, mind blowingly, uh, dramatic a, uh, sort of opening of my eyes.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Um, but, but, um. I don't know. For me, it just, it, it just gave me another perspective, you know, another perspective on how development works or doesn't work. Um, and another perspective on how Americans interact with the rest of the world, you know, just kind of being part of a group of Americans that's living in Mali and watching how my fellow volunteers were experiencing things. Um, gave me a perspective on that. So I'd say it's sort of, yeah, widened, widened my perspective. I didn't, I don't think it really changed it very much.

[Assistant] Yeah. You had such a strong foundation and beginning in Africa to begin with.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And because I had already lived in Africa and, um, it wasn't, as, I don't know, mind blowingly, uh, dramatic a, uh, sort of opening of my eyes.

[Assistant] Mm hmm.

[User] Um, but, but, um. I don't know. For me, it just, it, it just gave me another perspective, you know, another perspective on how development works or doesn't work. Um, and another perspective on how Americans interact with the rest of the world, you know, just kind of being part of a group of Americans that's living in Mali and watching how my fellow volunteers were experiencing things. Um, gave me a perspective on that. So I'd say it's sort of, yeah, widened, widened my perspective. I didn't, I don't think it really changed it very much.

[Assistant] Yeah. You had such a strong foundation and beginning in Africa to begin with.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Um, any other thoughts about Peace Corps?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Um, but, but, um. I don't know. For me, it just, it, it just gave me another perspective, you know, another perspective on how development works or doesn't work. Um, and another perspective on how Americans interact with the rest of the world, you know, just kind of being part of a group of Americans that's living in Mali and watching how my fellow volunteers were experiencing things. Um, gave me a perspective on that. So I'd say it's sort of, yeah, widened, widened my perspective. I didn't, I don't think it really changed it very much.

[Assistant] Yeah. You had such a strong foundation and beginning in Africa to begin with.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] Um, any other thoughts about Peace Corps?

[User] Uh. Yeah. And I mean, just it's, it's, it's a complicated. It's a complicated, um, experience being a Peace Corps volunteer. You know, it's not. I don't regret doing it for a minute. Um, and it wasn't all positive and it wasn't all negative, you know? So, um, I guess that's my overall feeling about the, about the whole thing is. Uh, yeah.

[Assistant] Thank you very much, Paul.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] We are approaching not necessarily the time that we’re going to be closing, but a time to release you for your appointment. Before I do that, I was going to ask Sandra and Jennifer if they have some questions for you, and when they’re finished I have another one before. Then hopefully we can come back and meet with you again and start with your missions—the next ones that you actually got to fly and got to tell people about.

[User] I’ve been too wordy, huh?

[Assistant]
Absolutely not, but it probably is a good place to break. I don’t really want to start on STS-31 and then have you lose all of that momentum and good thoughts and we have to start all over again.\n\n So let me ask Jennifer, do you have any questions for today?

I don’t have any questions.

Not today.

I’ve got one that when we were talking about support crews, I know that you also supported STS-8, which was the first mission to launch at night and the first one to—

[User] Oh, yes.

[Assistant] Could you tell us about your role and the preparation for the night landing? I understand you helped developed and test them and those methods that were used for that.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I suppose some of it was, but it was just kind of a natural thing, too, since I had been involved in a lot of the early days, I think at the Cape, getting ready to fly that, that it might think that it was kind of a natural thing to say, “Okay, here we are in the beginning part of a potential Vandenberg launch. What are some of the things that they’re going to need out there?” And looking at the runway and the lights and flying a few approaches and then just some of the basic things that went in to support the Cape, then you’d want to think about having that same capability at Vandenberg.

[Assistant] Okay. Is there anything else that you would like to add about this part of your career before we start again on your next segment where we pick up where you become commander of your flight?

[User] Oh, I don’t know. I think one of the questions you had written was what was some of the more difficult things, and as I look back on it, this business of being a casualty assistance officer is not easy to do. Totally different than the technical background that I have, and the duration of it was another factor. It was very, very long and very tedious work, very satisfying in some respects, very difficult to do though in some respects. But I would say that was probably more difficult to do than many of the technical things I’ve been involved in so far in my career.

[Assistant] And I would imagine that some of those duties just never felt like they stopped.

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, today it’s very remote in the past, but they did go on for a long time. And there are still linkages that I have, because of that work, to Ellison’s family in Hawaii that every once in a while get renewed in some way or another. But, yes, it was a pretty traumatic time for everybody involved and a different aspect of anything I’d ever done before.

[Assistant] All the training you’ve had, I’m sure it was very hard to be able to be trained in that position.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, I don’t know. I think one of the questions you had written was what was some of the more difficult things, and as I look back on it, this business of being a casualty assistance officer is not easy to do. Totally different than the technical background that I have, and the duration of it was another factor. It was very, very long and very tedious work, very satisfying in some respects, very difficult to do though in some respects. But I would say that was probably more difficult to do than many of the technical things I’ve been involved in so far in my career.

[Assistant] And I would imagine that some of those duties just never felt like they stopped.

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, today it’s very remote in the past, but they did go on for a long time. And there are still linkages that I have, because of that work, to Ellison’s family in Hawaii that every once in a while get renewed in some way or another. But, yes, it was a pretty traumatic time for everybody involved and a different aspect of anything I’d ever done before.

[Assistant] All the training you’ve had, I’m sure it was very hard to be able to be trained in that position.

[User] Yes, well, all the training I went through was to do a job that I already knew quite a bit about, and that was flying an airplane/space vehicle. This kind of training is something you just don’t get.

[Assistant] After all those early effects of\n\n Challenger\n\n , and, of course, being in that position you were in, did you ever have any doubts that maybe this isn’t what you wanted to pursue?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yes. I mean, today it’s very remote in the past, but they did go on for a long time. And there are still linkages that I have, because of that work, to Ellison’s family in Hawaii that every once in a while get renewed in some way or another. But, yes, it was a pretty traumatic time for everybody involved and a different aspect of anything I’d ever done before.

[Assistant] All the training you’ve had, I’m sure it was very hard to be able to be trained in that position.

[User] Yes, well, all the training I went through was to do a job that I already knew quite a bit about, and that was flying an airplane/space vehicle. This kind of training is something you just don’t get.

[Assistant] After all those early effects of\n\n Challenger\n\n , and, of course, being in that position you were in, did you ever have any doubts that maybe this isn’t what you wanted to pursue?

[User] No, I don’t know as that entered my mind. I could see the huge amount of rebuilding, redoing, reinventing that was going on in the overall program. Of course, the joint was redesigned—the solid rocket booster joint was redesigned. You get the feeling, then, that with all that effort that has gone into it, that actually things may be more safe now or right after that than they were just prior to that. And that’s probably the case in most situations like that. But, of course, it’ll only stay that way as long as everybody stays alert and vigilant and pays attention to detail. And from what I see these days, we certainly haven’t let up on that at all.

[Assistant] Did it almost seem, those preparations for return to flight, was it almost like being those first days back when you first started with the Shuttle Program, everything being reviewed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, or even worse. I say “worse.” Even more so. Everybody is familiar with the terminology, the pendulum swings back and forth. Well, maybe the pendulum had gone too far in one direction, but when it swung back the other way, it probably went a little too far in the other direction as well. And when it does that, the amount of expense and cost in the program gets pretty huge, and the last little bit of that, it’s arguable as whether it has actually done that much to increase safety or not.\n\n I think the basic things that we did were what I think actually ends up improving the safety of the program, and we probably went a little further than necessary and encumbered the program for many years with a lot of practices or paperwork or whatever procedures that added a lot of time and cost and people, but actually didn’t improve the overall safety of the vehicle all that much, if at all. But I think since that time we have filtered out some of that, and I think we’re back more toward a rational approach.

[Assistant] Were you involved with the STS-26, of any of the preparations?

[User] Not really too much there, no, not direct support to what they were doing. Again, a lot of this casualty assistance stuff was still going on, even that late.

[Assistant] Well, I’m sure that those duties will long be remembered by all of those involved.

[User] I suppose.

[Assistant] Well, we’re going to close for today so that when we begin again we can start on a very exciting note of you being named as commander of your next mission and talk about those missions, and then move to the administrative part of your job as well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was an interesting experience. It made us all look like we knew what we were doing. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, you guys passed your first test.

[User] We passed our first test. We had actually—I don’t remember now whether the—the Big Joe flight occurred before some of our launches of the monkeys from Wallops. They were some of our more interesting recovery operations. I can’t remember whether—

[Assistant] I think it was right before—

[User] I guess Big Joe was just before the launches we had at Wallops. We launched a couple of monkeys from Wallops that were fairly interesting operations that gave a lot of insight into things we ought to do and not do and so forth. So it was a combination of learning by doing.\n\n In today’s mature world, we wouldn’t do a lot of the things we did then, but a lot of the things we did then allowed us to move on quickly, much more quickly than we would today. Things that didn’t go exactly as planned didn’t worry us quite as much. We didn’t stop and have two or three investigating committees look at everything; we just took the learning from it ourselves and went on. We were all learning at that time.\n\n I think the recovery operation was one that we put a lot of capability into, and we had plans for no matter what happened, you know. If the thing took off on some under-velocity condition and ended up halfway across Africa, you at least had a plan. You could go talk to someone. You could send some airplanes in. You could go do something. The same thing was true if you aborted on the launch pad and it was over there five miles from the launch pad in the swamp and the alligators. You could go over there and do something. The activity had to cover all those possibilities.

[Assistant] I have ask you about some of the monkey flights out of Wallops Island there. Like Little Joe 2, I guess, was the first one, with Sam on board.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, have you interviewed a fellow named Rod [Rodney G.] Rose?

[Assistant] We sure have.

[User] Well, he’ll give you a few thousand words on the paraglider, won't he?

[Assistant] Yes, he talked to us for a little bit on it, yes.

[User] Rod’s probably still sure he can make the paraglider work. He just needed more money and more time. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Something you mentioned in conjunction with this was the ejection seats, and they kept those even they didn’t keep the paraglider. How did that affect recovery?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was a wonderful experience. It’s interesting to see how they do that. I said, “You know, this is lot like doing a Space Shuttle mission, in that everybody’s got to do the right thing at the right time.” They’ve got a very structured sequence of how they prepare for dress rehearsal and go into the actual final production and stuff, and it’s very structured.

[Assistant] Was it filmed live?

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Okay, interesting.

[User] It was. In fact, the audience, the live audience for the Tool Time segment, did not know we were going to be guests on it when we showed up, so for them, I mean, their reaction was just outstanding. It was really neat.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine. Did they all stick around wanting to get autographs or anything after the show?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. Yes.

[Assistant] Okay, interesting.

[User] It was. In fact, the audience, the live audience for the Tool Time segment, did not know we were going to be guests on it when we showed up, so for them, I mean, their reaction was just outstanding. It was really neat.

[Assistant] Yes, I can imagine. Did they all stick around wanting to get autographs or anything after the show?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] When did you start thinking about retiring from NASA, at what point? Was that before the mission, after?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did that for two years, one of the few jobs in my life that I absolutely hated. So it didn’t take me long to start being receptive to and even looking for other alternatives. Given the chance to go and lead the Houston division of McDonnell Douglas, I left in August of ’96 and went on to McDonnell Douglas, which became Boeing a year later through the merger. And have been with them up until January of this year or February of this year when I transitioned over to USA [United Space Alliance] on behalf of Boeing.

[Assistant] Tell us about that transition and why you decided to—you were in Colorado before this, correct?

[User] That’s right. You know, in 2000 I basically left the NASA business world and went off for Boeing and was working in the Department of Defense, the intelligence community, and some commercial space work. That was fascinating. I really liked that. I actually needed a break from working with NASA. It was okay. And had assumed that I probably would not come back to being part of the NASA contractor community; did not expect that I would get asked by Boeing to come back and join the United Space Alliance in a leadership position.\n\n So when that opportunity was offered to me, I had to look at it closely. And decided that I felt it would be a great opportunity to get back into the Space Shuttle business, primarily, but also to come back and work with a company that is trying to become something other than a Shuttle contractor. There’s some real challenges in that, and I thought that my background and experience off in another part of the government contracting world but not with NASA might help in that. So that was a large part of the decision.

[Assistant] You serve as the Executive Vice President and the COO [Chief Operating Officer]?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What does that entail?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That’s right. You know, in 2000 I basically left the NASA business world and went off for Boeing and was working in the Department of Defense, the intelligence community, and some commercial space work. That was fascinating. I really liked that. I actually needed a break from working with NASA. It was okay. And had assumed that I probably would not come back to being part of the NASA contractor community; did not expect that I would get asked by Boeing to come back and join the United Space Alliance in a leadership position.\n\n So when that opportunity was offered to me, I had to look at it closely. And decided that I felt it would be a great opportunity to get back into the Space Shuttle business, primarily, but also to come back and work with a company that is trying to become something other than a Shuttle contractor. There’s some real challenges in that, and I thought that my background and experience off in another part of the government contracting world but not with NASA might help in that. So that was a large part of the decision.

[Assistant] You serve as the Executive Vice President and the COO [Chief Operating Officer]?

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What does that entail?

[User] That’s basically a Deputy to the CEO [Chief Executive Officer]. So I’m the Deputy. I’m Mike [Michael J.] McCulley’s Deputy at this point, and the way that we’re structured and the way that we operate, it’s pretty much just along that line.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you’re moving away from just focusing on the Space Shuttle Program. What are you moving toward?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Right.

[Assistant] What does that entail?

[User] That’s basically a Deputy to the CEO [Chief Executive Officer]. So I’m the Deputy. I’m Mike [Michael J.] McCulley’s Deputy at this point, and the way that we’re structured and the way that we operate, it’s pretty much just along that line.

[Assistant] You mentioned that you’re moving away from just focusing on the Space Shuttle Program. What are you moving toward?

[User] Well, sure. Sure, you know, we have been sustained by the spaceflight operations contract and now the space programs operation contract, but that ends when the Shuttle stops flying in 2010. Eighty percent of our work is supporting the Shuttle, so how do we become relevant and how do we play into the Constellation world, the human-rated systems of the future, the plan, train, and fly aspects of the JSC operations for Constellation as well as for Shuttle and Station? How do we become relevant and make sure that we can participate in those activities as they replace the Shuttle and those systems replace the Shuttle as the focus of NASA’s human spaceflight activities? So that’s primarily what we’re doing.

[Assistant] Yes, very interesting. I wanted to ask you about your work with the Return to Flight Task Group. When were you appointed to that group?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes, every once in a while we would meet with them and tell them what we thought we were seeing. Then they would tell us the things they were concerned about, which weren’t necessarily artifacts of recommendations but some of the things that they observed and the things that they were being subjected to that bothered them. So we’d find out some things there and factor that into the questions we asked and the way that we conducted our assessment.

[Assistant] Were there any similarities between your return to flight and their return to flight after the Columbia accident that you noticed? Anything common?

[User] Well, yes, of course there is. After a team has sat down for two and a half years, it’s a ratchety start back up. Processes have changed, because they were deemed to be inadequate before, so now the new processes are there, and trying to—so everything that leads up to the decision that, yes, we’re going to go fly and launch is harder than it used to be, and I saw that. I saw that. The idea they’d go to two-day flight readiness reviews, two-day long, and I mean, that was very much like after STS-26, in that the conservatism built in required that you listen to a lot of things that may not really have to and could have been dispositioned outside of a formal agency-level activity but weren’t, because we want to make sure we all talk about this, not just, you know.

[Assistant] Before we close today we have two questions that we just like to ask everyone. What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency, or today perhaps?

[User] Challenging—well, in my mind there’s no doubt that preparing for STS-61 was the most challenging thing.

[Assistant] Why is that?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, yes, of course there is. After a team has sat down for two and a half years, it’s a ratchety start back up. Processes have changed, because they were deemed to be inadequate before, so now the new processes are there, and trying to—so everything that leads up to the decision that, yes, we’re going to go fly and launch is harder than it used to be, and I saw that. I saw that. The idea they’d go to two-day flight readiness reviews, two-day long, and I mean, that was very much like after STS-26, in that the conservatism built in required that you listen to a lot of things that may not really have to and could have been dispositioned outside of a formal agency-level activity but weren’t, because we want to make sure we all talk about this, not just, you know.

[Assistant] Before we close today we have two questions that we just like to ask everyone. What do you think was your most challenging milestone while working for the space agency, or today perhaps?

[User] Challenging—well, in my mind there’s no doubt that preparing for STS-61 was the most challenging thing.

[Assistant] Why is that?

[User] Because of the complexity of what we wanted to do and gaining a constituency that believed that the crew could go and do all those things that had never been done before. You know, expanding from three spacewalks max [maximum] on a mission where two was nominal and three was exceptional, and going to five; the number of complex operations that we had. It wasn’t that there was resistance. It’s just that we were pushing the bounds, and so the way you have to demonstrate, prove, that you’re ready to go do that, not just the crew but the agency, was, I thought, a major accomplishment.

[Assistant] Conversely, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Challenging—well, in my mind there’s no doubt that preparing for STS-61 was the most challenging thing.

[Assistant] Why is that?

[User] Because of the complexity of what we wanted to do and gaining a constituency that believed that the crew could go and do all those things that had never been done before. You know, expanding from three spacewalks max [maximum] on a mission where two was nominal and three was exceptional, and going to five; the number of complex operations that we had. It wasn’t that there was resistance. It’s just that we were pushing the bounds, and so the way you have to demonstrate, prove, that you’re ready to go do that, not just the crew but the agency, was, I thought, a major accomplishment.

[Assistant] Conversely, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Conversely—now, maybe I answered that one wrong. [Laughter] Overcoming challenge sometimes is the most significant accomplishment. There’s no doubt that having commanded STS-61 and what we did on that mission was the greatest accomplishment that I was able to make and contribution I was able to make to the agency and our nation. No question about it.

[Assistant] One of the proudest moments of your career.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Because of the complexity of what we wanted to do and gaining a constituency that believed that the crew could go and do all those things that had never been done before. You know, expanding from three spacewalks max [maximum] on a mission where two was nominal and three was exceptional, and going to five; the number of complex operations that we had. It wasn’t that there was resistance. It’s just that we were pushing the bounds, and so the way you have to demonstrate, prove, that you’re ready to go do that, not just the crew but the agency, was, I thought, a major accomplishment.

[Assistant] Conversely, what do you think was your most significant accomplishment?

[User] Conversely—now, maybe I answered that one wrong. [Laughter] Overcoming challenge sometimes is the most significant accomplishment. There’s no doubt that having commanded STS-61 and what we did on that mission was the greatest accomplishment that I was able to make and contribution I was able to make to the agency and our nation. No question about it.

[Assistant] One of the proudest moments of your career.

[User] Oh yes. Yes, still is. It’s way up there.

[Assistant] I can imagine.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Conversely—now, maybe I answered that one wrong. [Laughter] Overcoming challenge sometimes is the most significant accomplishment. There’s no doubt that having commanded STS-61 and what we did on that mission was the greatest accomplishment that I was able to make and contribution I was able to make to the agency and our nation. No question about it.

[Assistant] One of the proudest moments of your career.

[User] Oh yes. Yes, still is. It’s way up there.

[Assistant] I can imagine.

[User] Other than babies and grandbabies. [Laughter] Getting married and things like that.

[Assistant] It’s funny, that you mention it, I think Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker told me something like that. You know, getting to be an astronaut, you know, pretty good; but getting married, having a kid, you know, a little higher.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yes. Yes, still is. It’s way up there.

[Assistant] I can imagine.

[User] Other than babies and grandbabies. [Laughter] Getting married and things like that.

[Assistant] It’s funny, that you mention it, I think Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker told me something like that. You know, getting to be an astronaut, you know, pretty good; but getting married, having a kid, you know, a little higher.

[User] Yes, you’ve got to balance those things. If you put them all together, you’re going to fault over to the family stuff, there’s no question about it.

[Assistant] Well, I’d like to ask Sandra if she had any questions for you. No? Do you feel like there’s anything that we may have overlooked that you want to talk about? We have a little less than a half an hour if there’s anything that you think we might have—.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Other than babies and grandbabies. [Laughter] Getting married and things like that.

[Assistant] It’s funny, that you mention it, I think Bob [Robert A.R.] Parker told me something like that. You know, getting to be an astronaut, you know, pretty good; but getting married, having a kid, you know, a little higher.

[User] Yes, you’ve got to balance those things. If you put them all together, you’re going to fault over to the family stuff, there’s no question about it.

[Assistant] Well, I’d like to ask Sandra if she had any questions for you. No? Do you feel like there’s anything that we may have overlooked that you want to talk about? We have a little less than a half an hour if there’s anything that you think we might have—.

[User] I’ll be honest with you. I can’t think of anything right now. I’m trying to think if there’s anything I could add that would be of value, but outside of the context of just what we talked about today or earlier, I’m probably done. [Laughter]

[Assistant] Well, we thank you for your time. We’ve really enjoyed all the sessions.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] 1965 to '67.

[Assistant] OK. And we're in Lawrenceville, Georgia. So Bill, if you can tell me maybe a little bit about your present work and family, your residence, any interests that you have currently?

[User] OK, well, I'm still working full time. I work for an electronics company, a San Francisco based electronics company. And just as a general comment, my work has always been related to something to do with the television media or those kinds of audiovisual kinds of things. And I'm still in that field, working for a company that manufactures products that are used quite extensively in classrooms and conference rooms, and other places that have video projection systems where they show PowerPoint, VCR tapes and things like that. So I'm still in that sort of related field. Also, I've always, since I was 16, I've been a professional organist at churches. I took my first organ position when I was 16. Picked up the organ at age 13 after some background in piano, so these are sort of been parallel careers, if you will, so I still play the organ quite a bit, and that's a nice break, a nice diversion from the other work, which is mainly in marketing for SP Controls, is the name of the company. Two jobs keeps me very busy. But in addition to that, you know, I enjoy reading, gardening, music, going to plays and things like that.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So I can just continue?

[Assistant] Well, I was going to ask you to think back to the year just prior to going into Peace Corps and think back and maybe talk a little bit about your childhood, your education, things previous to Peace Corps.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK, well, I'm still working full time. I work for an electronics company, a San Francisco based electronics company. And just as a general comment, my work has always been related to something to do with the television media or those kinds of audiovisual kinds of things. And I'm still in that field, working for a company that manufactures products that are used quite extensively in classrooms and conference rooms, and other places that have video projection systems where they show PowerPoint, VCR tapes and things like that. So I'm still in that sort of related field. Also, I've always, since I was 16, I've been a professional organist at churches. I took my first organ position when I was 16. Picked up the organ at age 13 after some background in piano, so these are sort of been parallel careers, if you will, so I still play the organ quite a bit, and that's a nice break, a nice diversion from the other work, which is mainly in marketing for SP Controls, is the name of the company. Two jobs keeps me very busy. But in addition to that, you know, I enjoy reading, gardening, music, going to plays and things like that.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So I can just continue?

[Assistant] Well, I was going to ask you to think back to the year just prior to going into Peace Corps and think back and maybe talk a little bit about your childhood, your education, things previous to Peace Corps.

[User] Mm hmm. OK. I didn't say much about my family, should I go back to that?

[Assistant] Oh yeah, go for it. Go back to that.