[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Oh, absolutely. Sure. Well, you know, married to a Fijian so. But no, for work wise, I spent 24 years with the Department of Education, Maryland State Department of Education, working with the individuals with disabilities and all types of disabilities and reviewing, uh, medical documentation to determine eligibility for services. So. And then segued just two and a half years ago to the federal government, pretty much doing the same thing. But on a different, different scale. This is, uh, similar in respects of working with individuals with disabilities. But it's a slight twist to it. That was public. This is specifically federal employees.

So yeah, absolutely. It's, it did, I think it did certainly build a decent foundation for that, for experiencing the medical part of it and then taking off from there and doing these kinds of, kinds of what I'm doing now and enjoying it, actually. Yeah, very much.

[Assistant] All right. And you're thinking about moving back?

[User] Uh, it's not thinking. Moving. According to my wife, we're, as soon as the house is sold, we're gone.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I appreciate your time.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Uh, it's not thinking. Moving. According to my wife, we're, as soon as the house is sold, we're gone.

[Assistant] All right.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I appreciate your time.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you want to get in?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Okay. Well, I appreciate your time.

[User] Sure.

[Assistant] Is there anything else you want to get in?

[User] No, I'm sure there are lots more, but that, I think that was the essence of the whole thing.

[Assistant] All right. Well, then, thank you very much. This concludes the interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No. One more. Maybe it’s Thomas—\n\n REBECCA

[Assistant] He was the congressman during the time of the NASA—

[User] Well, those were some great guys. Don’t forget Congressman [Olin E.] Teague.\n\n REBECCA

[Assistant] That’s true.

[User] “Tiger” Teague was a very important congressman. But I can’t remember for sure.\n\n REBECCA

[Assistant] Sam [Samuel T.] Rayburn was—


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It may be repetitive. I’d like to touch on each of them just to be sure I’ve covering the lot. So, ask me.

[Assistant] Okay. Certainly. Okay. You had mentioned for—each mission had a unique science objective, some of which—

[User] Yes. A unique series of science objectives.

[Assistant] Unique series.

[User] It wasn’t one. It was the whole series, and included in each unique series was the general objective, expanding what we know, and that was expanding what we know in terms of the science and also in terms of man’s capability. We did upgrade, largely through not in the technical aspects, through things that we thought about as we went [through] the preparation for the early missions, but long before we got [to] the other missions, like the lunar rover, for example.\n\n I think that the engineering performance was outstanding, really outstanding, and many of the flight controllers in the Flight Directorate were engineers, and they were the people, the first people to do an all-cost systems engineering, and that was a great invention. I think it was Apollo who brought that on, more than the military, and so I’ll come back to that when I talk about one of the other generalized topics. Between my other remarks, we’ve kind of covered that topic. Let’s go on now to the next topic.

[Assistant] Okay. Next one we have is human performance.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It’s oral history. It’s only one man’s version.

[Assistant] Yes.

[User] And I can’t get anybody to corroborate what I said.

[Assistant] Well, you had mentioned you wanted to go back and mention Farouk El-baz’s role.

[User] I do. While I was training the ground crews, Farouk was training the circumlunar crews, one-man crews. But he was also training—his training extended into all the crews. Farouk is a master, an articulate master of educating and maintaining interest. The guy who played him in From the Earth to the Moon isn’t as good as Farouk is. He’s just a master. We were never in competition. I didn’t hear most of Farouk’s training because I wasn’t there at that time. We each had our shots at the crews, but that was among the things the crews had to learn, you understand. And the crews all had their opportunities to go around the Moon a number of orbits, so they got to see things which they were all lit up about. They just loved it. And Farouk did a fantastic job on that.\n\n But Jim Head contributed to that, and this name I’m struggling with right now.

[Assistant] We’ll definitely be able to look it up.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I can’t get anybody to corroborate what I said.

[Assistant] Well, you had mentioned you wanted to go back and mention Farouk El-baz’s role.

[User] I do. While I was training the ground crews, Farouk was training the circumlunar crews, one-man crews. But he was also training—his training extended into all the crews. Farouk is a master, an articulate master of educating and maintaining interest. The guy who played him in From the Earth to the Moon isn’t as good as Farouk is. He’s just a master. We were never in competition. I didn’t hear most of Farouk’s training because I wasn’t there at that time. We each had our shots at the crews, but that was among the things the crews had to learn, you understand. And the crews all had their opportunities to go around the Moon a number of orbits, so they got to see things which they were all lit up about. They just loved it. And Farouk did a fantastic job on that.\n\n But Jim Head contributed to that, and this name I’m struggling with right now.

[Assistant] We’ll definitely be able to look it up.

[User] Oh, you can find it, and I’ll know it the minute I leave. What else?

[Assistant] Sandra, did you have any questions?\n\n [To Dr. Silver] Well, was there anything else that you in particular wanted to talk about for your experiences during the Apollo Program?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Bob Parker’s a Caltech alumnus. He finally got to fly. He now heads the NASA office at JPL [Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California]. But he had a great touch, good humor, dedication. He was a wonderful guy. These guys are my friends, so I don’t want you showing this around. I tried to be friends to everybody I’d meet. Some of them are gone, so that’s the way it goes. Who was the Apollo 16 CapCom? I don’t know.\n\n REBECCA

[Assistant] One of them was Fullerton.

[User] [F.] Gorden Fullerton. Haven’t mentioned him. Gorden served and served and served in every capacity. I mention him to you, and I asked George about him last night, and he’s now out at Edwards, or it’s Dryden [Flight Research Center, Edwards, California], I guess, now. A good man.\n\n The people you need, you need people in ranks, and you have to recognize that if you don’t have the first one, then the second guy will step in, the third guy will step in, and that’s the way it goes, like that. It takes it in ranks. It was a community, a fantastic community. So if you ask me, was it one of the highlights of my life? You’d better believe it.

[Assistant] Looking back on your career with Apollo and the Apollo Program, you’ve talked a lot about the team and you’ve talked about your contributions. What would you consider, for you personally and then for the program as a whole, to be the biggest challenge?

[User] The biggest challenge was to subdue your natural human responses and remember what your mission was. Even when I was fighting like hell, and that fight extended to my own campus, it was important not to lose sight of the mission. All kinds of people that I didn’t agree with, nevertheless, made contributions. That’s the way it is.

[Assistant] And what would you consider Apollo’s biggest accomplishment?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's worked out better than it might have, had the space program not gone the way it did, which wouldn't have happened, as you said, as you suggested, without the ICBM program.

[Assistant] Very key element. Looking on that and the involvement, then, with the Mercury Program and applying the Atlas to the Mercury Program, what was then your interaction with NASA, as well as the military at that time? How did that relationship evolve and what did it entail?

[User] As near as I can recall, the relationship of NASA and the Air Force was a good one. There was a clarity that in some respects might have been surprising, between the NASA mission on the one hand and the Air Force's mission on the other. It was far superior to the typical interservice rivalry situations that exist today, that have always existed as long as there's been the three services. The role, for example, of aircraft carriers versus long-range bombers has always been, and always going to be, probably a good example of gray areas, difficulties in trying to define the areas, the missions of each of the services. But NASA was nonmilitary and the Air Force is military, and that worked out well. [Brief interruption.]

[Assistant] Looking at the involvement, as we were just recently talking, with NASA and the Air Force on the Atlas Program, to bring the Atlas up to manned specifications and to work NASA into it and using it and launching it, what roles did you have there? Were you involved with any training aspects for them or the launch site, developing that?

[User] Well, the large teams that we had on the apparatus itself, on being sure that everything was in proper condition, checking everything out, and the teams in Florida to make sure that the launch would go well, they were placed totally at the disposal of NASA. Except for making sure that that would happen, I personally was not on the site and not standing there directing anything. So I had very little to do with such details.

[Assistant] Were you able to be on hand to watch a launch of the Atlas, a manned launch?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] As near as I can recall, the relationship of NASA and the Air Force was a good one. There was a clarity that in some respects might have been surprising, between the NASA mission on the one hand and the Air Force's mission on the other. It was far superior to the typical interservice rivalry situations that exist today, that have always existed as long as there's been the three services. The role, for example, of aircraft carriers versus long-range bombers has always been, and always going to be, probably a good example of gray areas, difficulties in trying to define the areas, the missions of each of the services. But NASA was nonmilitary and the Air Force is military, and that worked out well. [Brief interruption.]

[Assistant] Looking at the involvement, as we were just recently talking, with NASA and the Air Force on the Atlas Program, to bring the Atlas up to manned specifications and to work NASA into it and using it and launching it, what roles did you have there? Were you involved with any training aspects for them or the launch site, developing that?

[User] Well, the large teams that we had on the apparatus itself, on being sure that everything was in proper condition, checking everything out, and the teams in Florida to make sure that the launch would go well, they were placed totally at the disposal of NASA. Except for making sure that that would happen, I personally was not on the site and not standing there directing anything. So I had very little to do with such details.

[Assistant] Were you able to be on hand to watch a launch of the Atlas, a manned launch?

[User] I watched a couple of launches. I watched the first night shot, for example.

[Assistant] Was it very satisfying to be able to see what you'd been spending so much time on come to fruition?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, the large teams that we had on the apparatus itself, on being sure that everything was in proper condition, checking everything out, and the teams in Florida to make sure that the launch would go well, they were placed totally at the disposal of NASA. Except for making sure that that would happen, I personally was not on the site and not standing there directing anything. So I had very little to do with such details.

[Assistant] Were you able to be on hand to watch a launch of the Atlas, a manned launch?

[User] I watched a couple of launches. I watched the first night shot, for example.

[Assistant] Was it very satisfying to be able to see what you'd been spending so much time on come to fruition?

[User] Well, of course, before that I had seen ICBM launches and I'd seen a lot of pictures that we had taken of ICBM launches, and I'd seen pictures, of course, of the launches of the Apollo Programs. I have to say that what I saw with my own eyes was what I expected to see. It was not all that surprising difference, thrilling, really.

[Assistant] I guess that's good.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I watched a couple of launches. I watched the first night shot, for example.

[Assistant] Was it very satisfying to be able to see what you'd been spending so much time on come to fruition?

[User] Well, of course, before that I had seen ICBM launches and I'd seen a lot of pictures that we had taken of ICBM launches, and I'd seen pictures, of course, of the launches of the Apollo Programs. I have to say that what I saw with my own eyes was what I expected to see. It was not all that surprising difference, thrilling, really.

[Assistant] I guess that's good.

[User] Well, if this is what you do for a living, it can't be quite the same as it is if you're on the outside. The mystery was not very high.

[Assistant] And you like it to go as you expect, because that means everything's going well.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Sometimes that happens. It happened here or we would have been very much delayed in both instances, whether it be the lunar landing on the one hand, or the ICBM program, but especially these people were capable immediately of coming together. As a matter of fact, now the deputy head of NASA, George [E.] Mueller, in charge of manned space flight—everything had to do with manned space flight—was one of our principal—for several years. I recruited him into Ramo-Wooldridge for the ICBM program. He was in charge of the electronics guidance, that aspect of the ICBM program. And he was recruited by NASA as a result of conversations between Jim Webb and me. The general who headed the Minuteman program [General Samuel C. Phillips] became the head of the Apollo Program. That was the case of General Schriever and Jim Webb coming together. There was no question that the ICBM project team, so large and so outstanding, put together, should have been used and was used in many places. A good many of the top executives in the space industry came out of that original ICBM team at Ramo-Wooldridge.

[Assistant] So not only was the ICBM program instrumental in the technological side, it was on the management side as well.

[User] And that's as it should be. I mean, you have a very big program and its principal people should move on to other things as you pass a certain peak of requirement for all of them.

[Assistant] The buildup, at least on the manned space program side, was to the [Apollo 11] lunar landing, as you mentioned. Do you remember where you were and what you were doing when they actually landed on the moon for the first time?

[User] Well, I was home and watching TV.

[Assistant] Looking back over your career, focusing on the ICBM program and NASA involvement, what was the biggest challenge that you faced?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They didn't get enough people or something.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So anyway, uh, so we left for Fiji in, let's see, I think at like the middle of October, but we didn't go to Fiji immediately. We had our training in the island of Molokai, Hawaii, and we were there until, um, about I think at the middle of December. We had, there were 120 of us in that group and they divided us pretty much in half. Half of us were going to be Fiji volunteers, the other had been for Indians, and we had language instructors, Fijian and Indian, and did our language training there and cultural training. It was really a good place to be because it was kind of off the beaten track.

[Assistant] Now they were, the whole group was going to Fiji?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But some were going to be work with the Indian population in Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So anyway, uh, so we left for Fiji in, let's see, I think at like the middle of October, but we didn't go to Fiji immediately. We had our training in the island of Molokai, Hawaii, and we were there until, um, about I think at the middle of December. We had, there were 120 of us in that group and they divided us pretty much in half. Half of us were going to be Fiji volunteers, the other had been for Indians, and we had language instructors, Fijian and Indian, and did our language training there and cultural training. It was really a good place to be because it was kind of off the beaten track.

[Assistant] Now they were, the whole group was going to Fiji?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But some were going to be work with the Indian population in Fiji?

[User] That's right, yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] They weren't going to India.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] But some were going to be work with the Indian population in Fiji?

[User] That's right, yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] They weren't going to India.

[User] That's right. And most, I would say majority of people in that group were going to be either secondary or primary teachers. There were like, we had probably maybe 15 or 20 of us were doing co-operatives and then I think about ten were doing filariasis. That was the thing about the mosquitoes. And then another group were doing fisheries, starting up fisheries. But with the rest, I think that's all of them, but the rest of them were going to be teachers. So we got to Fiji in like the middle of December, and us cooperative people. And I don't, I don't know if anybody else did or not, but us cooperative people, we stayed at the Cooperatives Education Center at Lami, you know, while the time we were there. And actually, we'll tell you later, I was in charge of that when I left, you know, three years later. But anyway.

[Assistant] What about your, back in your training, what did your training consist of?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right, yeah, that's right.

[Assistant] They weren't going to India.

[User] That's right. And most, I would say majority of people in that group were going to be either secondary or primary teachers. There were like, we had probably maybe 15 or 20 of us were doing co-operatives and then I think about ten were doing filariasis. That was the thing about the mosquitoes. And then another group were doing fisheries, starting up fisheries. But with the rest, I think that's all of them, but the rest of them were going to be teachers. So we got to Fiji in like the middle of December, and us cooperative people. And I don't, I don't know if anybody else did or not, but us cooperative people, we stayed at the Cooperatives Education Center at Lami, you know, while the time we were there. And actually, we'll tell you later, I was in charge of that when I left, you know, three years later. But anyway.

[Assistant] What about your, back in your training, what did your training consist of?

[User] Language training. That was primarily what we did, and then different cultural things, but we didn't really do that much stuff about cooperatives then. I mean, think we, I mean the teachers did a lot of training then. They did stuff with, you know, classroom situations and all that. But of course with us being cooperatives, we didn't, from what I remember, we didn't do all that much hands on training and why considering with cooperative stuff.

[Assistant] You were in the Fijian group, you learned Fijian language?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's right. And most, I would say majority of people in that group were going to be either secondary or primary teachers. There were like, we had probably maybe 15 or 20 of us were doing co-operatives and then I think about ten were doing filariasis. That was the thing about the mosquitoes. And then another group were doing fisheries, starting up fisheries. But with the rest, I think that's all of them, but the rest of them were going to be teachers. So we got to Fiji in like the middle of December, and us cooperative people. And I don't, I don't know if anybody else did or not, but us cooperative people, we stayed at the Cooperatives Education Center at Lami, you know, while the time we were there. And actually, we'll tell you later, I was in charge of that when I left, you know, three years later. But anyway.

[Assistant] What about your, back in your training, what did your training consist of?

[User] Language training. That was primarily what we did, and then different cultural things, but we didn't really do that much stuff about cooperatives then. I mean, think we, I mean the teachers did a lot of training then. They did stuff with, you know, classroom situations and all that. But of course with us being cooperatives, we didn't, from what I remember, we didn't do all that much hands on training and why considering with cooperative stuff.

[Assistant] You were in the Fijian group, you learned Fijian language?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And did they bring trainers over from Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Language training. That was primarily what we did, and then different cultural things, but we didn't really do that much stuff about cooperatives then. I mean, think we, I mean the teachers did a lot of training then. They did stuff with, you know, classroom situations and all that. But of course with us being cooperatives, we didn't, from what I remember, we didn't do all that much hands on training and why considering with cooperative stuff.

[Assistant] You were in the Fijian group, you learned Fijian language?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And did they bring trainers over from Fiji?

[User] Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah they did. And we, they were really good to us. I mean they, you know, the total immersion thing where during the daytime we were not supposed to speak any English. And then even at night, you know, they wanted us to pretty much stay away from English. And of course we did all the cultural things with the kava and kava ceremony. And it was, it was a lot of fun. I mean, just imagine 120 people together.

[Assistant] Sure. It's a big group.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And did they bring trainers over from Fiji?

[User] Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah they did. And we, they were really good to us. I mean they, you know, the total immersion thing where during the daytime we were not supposed to speak any English. And then even at night, you know, they wanted us to pretty much stay away from English. And of course we did all the cultural things with the kava and kava ceremony. And it was, it was a lot of fun. I mean, just imagine 120 people together.

[Assistant] Sure. It's a big group.

[User] Yeah. So anyway, we spent that Christmas there in Lami, stayed at the Coop Education Center, and then we split. During that time, when we got to Fiji, like I said I think it was around the middle of December, maybe earlier, we went around to a lot of different co- operatives, primary cooperatives and different kinds, just to find out what they're all about. Because for most of us, cooperatives was kind of a thing that we didn't know about it. And I did have bookkeeping, so you know, I was familiar with accounting, I was familiar with all that. But we had to learn. In our work, we had to learn how to do all that, which of course came later on. But they did take us around to see a lot of different.

[Assistant] So this was kind of an extension of your training once you got into country before you actually started working?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah they did. And we, they were really good to us. I mean they, you know, the total immersion thing where during the daytime we were not supposed to speak any English. And then even at night, you know, they wanted us to pretty much stay away from English. And of course we did all the cultural things with the kava and kava ceremony. And it was, it was a lot of fun. I mean, just imagine 120 people together.

[Assistant] Sure. It's a big group.

[User] Yeah. So anyway, we spent that Christmas there in Lami, stayed at the Coop Education Center, and then we split. During that time, when we got to Fiji, like I said I think it was around the middle of December, maybe earlier, we went around to a lot of different co- operatives, primary cooperatives and different kinds, just to find out what they're all about. Because for most of us, cooperatives was kind of a thing that we didn't know about it. And I did have bookkeeping, so you know, I was familiar with accounting, I was familiar with all that. But we had to learn. In our work, we had to learn how to do all that, which of course came later on. But they did take us around to see a lot of different.

[Assistant] So this was kind of an extension of your training once you got into country before you actually started working?

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] I want to ask you, you had a little transition in Hawaii, which is an island. So it may have been similar to Fiji, but when you landed in Fiji, what was the impression? What was that you remember?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. Yeah.

[Assistant] I want to ask you, you had a little transition in Hawaii, which is an island. So it may have been similar to Fiji, but when you landed in Fiji, what was the impression? What was that you remember?

[User] I think the smell. I mean, it was just, I'm not saying, just the smell of the country.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I guess maybe some fires were, the cooking fires were in the distance. But I remember that was one of the first things that, you know, that impressed me, that when I smelled what it was like.

[Assistant] It was a good thing or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. They wanted to do it. They wanted to do it. But with the whole cooperative thing, it's, uh, there's so many problems because a cooperative is kind of against the culture. Because if a cooperative is going to run efficiently, run efficiently, you can't give credit. Because when you give credit, generally it doesn't get paid back that quick or at all. And then the cooperative starts going down and down and doesn't have any money to, you know, to do different things. So you've got to, and so a lot of cooperatives failed for that reason. And some of them, uh. So like I said, that was the biggest problem we had. But again, we tried to encourage them. But again, it was hard. You know, like if a storekeeper, uh, the chief came in and didn't have any money and wanted something. It was pretty hard to turn him down.

[Assistant] Hard to say no.

[User] Hard to say no.

[Assistant] Now were you the only American, the only non-Fijian, on the island?

[User] Yeah. There's 500. Me and 500 Fijians.

[Assistant] And how long did it take? You had to go there by boat, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hard to say no.

[Assistant] Now were you the only American, the only non-Fijian, on the island?

[User] Yeah. There's 500. Me and 500 Fijians.

[Assistant] And how long did it take? You had to go there by boat, right?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] How long did it take to get there by boat?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, it's like if you went up on the copra boat, which is, you know, a good-sized boat, it would take a couple of days, but you'd make stops on the way up. But a couple of people on Thikombia, they had like motorboats, you know, like for, what 30 feet long? They're kind of closed in part.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And I went back and forth on them a few times, but they would still take quite a ways because you could barely see the tip of Vanua Levu from Thikombia. It was about 20 miles across there.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] So. So anyway, so I went up there and I got up there, let's say late in September. And I stayed there probably most of the time for the rest of that year. And then part of the next year, off and on, I was going back and doing some things in Labasa. And finally, I think it was, when was it now? Oh, after being up there, I decided that I wanted to extend, that I wanted to stay for longer than two years. So.

[Assistant] So your two years was up?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So. So anyway, so I went up there and I got up there, let's say late in September. And I stayed there probably most of the time for the rest of that year. And then part of the next year, off and on, I was going back and doing some things in Labasa. And finally, I think it was, when was it now? Oh, after being up there, I decided that I wanted to extend, that I wanted to stay for longer than two years. So.

[Assistant] So your two years was up?

[User] Two years was up the following year.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] In other words, I was in Thikombia pretty much for a year and plus a few months. And then in December of 1970, I left and I came back to America for, you know, they sent me for a couple of weeks.

[Assistant] Before we leave Thikombia, tell me about the village. What kind of house did you live in? And did you travel?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Two years was up the following year.

[Assistant] Oh, OK.

[User] In other words, I was in Thikombia pretty much for a year and plus a few months. And then in December of 1970, I left and I came back to America for, you know, they sent me for a couple of weeks.

[Assistant] Before we leave Thikombia, tell me about the village. What kind of house did you live in? And did you travel?

[User] OK. The village I was in, it had a tin roof and it was, you know, wooden frame around it. But they also had bures, you know, the grass houses. In general, the grass houses were used for eating in and stuff, but not entirely. Some of the regular, you know, some of the regular houses were the grass houses. But the one we had was, like I said, wooden and, you know, it had windows and I slept on the floor.

[Assistant] You didn't have a bed?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In other words, I was in Thikombia pretty much for a year and plus a few months. And then in December of 1970, I left and I came back to America for, you know, they sent me for a couple of weeks.

[Assistant] Before we leave Thikombia, tell me about the village. What kind of house did you live in? And did you travel?

[User] OK. The village I was in, it had a tin roof and it was, you know, wooden frame around it. But they also had bures, you know, the grass houses. In general, the grass houses were used for eating in and stuff, but not entirely. Some of the regular, you know, some of the regular houses were the grass houses. But the one we had was, like I said, wooden and, you know, it had windows and I slept on the floor.

[Assistant] You didn't have a bed?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Any kind of mattress or anything?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] OK. The village I was in, it had a tin roof and it was, you know, wooden frame around it. But they also had bures, you know, the grass houses. In general, the grass houses were used for eating in and stuff, but not entirely. Some of the regular, you know, some of the regular houses were the grass houses. But the one we had was, like I said, wooden and, you know, it had windows and I slept on the floor.

[Assistant] You didn't have a bed?

[User] No.

[Assistant] Any kind of mattress or anything?

[User] No, no. But I got used to it and I think I slept on a blanket or something. They did have, in the house we were there, they did have, always had a regular bed there for guests, but I wasn't about to sleep in that.

[Assistant] Oh, so you didn't stay? You didn't have your own house. You stayed with a family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No.

[Assistant] Any kind of mattress or anything?

[User] No, no. But I got used to it and I think I slept on a blanket or something. They did have, in the house we were there, they did have, always had a regular bed there for guests, but I wasn't about to sleep in that.

[Assistant] Oh, so you didn't stay? You didn't have your own house. You stayed with a family?

[User] Yeah, I stayed with a family.

[Assistant] Oh. And they also slept on mats on the floor probably.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, I stayed with a family.

[Assistant] Oh. And they also slept on mats on the floor probably.

[User] Yeah. On the floor or else, in one of the grass house they would be, they would have softer mats, you know, floor wooden, wooden, wooden.

[Assistant] Right.

[User] But I would eat with them. They would eat, we would eat in a grass house that was near that house. And there was two families that lived together. They were, you know, relatives. And as we found later, I still keep up with those people after all these years.

[Assistant] Yeah, so living in the same house, did you become like part of the family?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah. And one way that I knew I was part of the family was, you know, for a long time, if you did something wrong or, they wouldn't say anything for a long time. But then finally, when they started calling you down for things you were doing wrong as far as culturally or something, you knew that you're part of the family because they're treating you like the others.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] So that was really a good turning point for me because I had one thing that was upsetting that happened to me. That's one thing that kind of sticks out. Some of the cooperatives I was working with, they were taking too big cash advances. You know, like when they'd send the bags of copra, they would let them take, like, so many dollars a bag. Like, if they had sent 100 bags, they'd let them have maybe $200 to use to buy copra or coconuts for the members. But consequently, that meant that they're not going to have that much money coming back to buy, you know, to buy consumer goods with.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And so at one point, it looked like they really needed to send as much money as possible. And they told me, they agreed, everybody agreed that they weren't going to take the cash advance, but they did. And I remember I was, I remember I was devastated for a while, but I just, I just finally realized that there was anything I could do about it, just had to deal with it. But I remember it was upsetting.

[Assistant] Now, you probably had to speak Fijian exclusively while you're there.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And so at one point, it looked like they really needed to send as much money as possible. And they told me, they agreed, everybody agreed that they weren't going to take the cash advance, but they did. And I remember I was, I remember I was devastated for a while, but I just, I just finally realized that there was anything I could do about it, just had to deal with it. But I remember it was upsetting.

[Assistant] Now, you probably had to speak Fijian exclusively while you're there.

[User] Yeah. The man I stayed with, he had been in World War II over in the Solomons and he spoke good English. So he was a good, you know, anything I needed to know, he could tell me right away. But there are a lot of people up there that did not know English because they only had to take English through the eighth grade. And if they didn't go any further that, you know, and they're older, they probably never had a use for English anymore. So a lot of people, you know, didn't know that much English, but that was all right with me. It was good for me because it was.

[Assistant] Sure.

[User] So I could learn it.

[Assistant] Did you feel like you had a lack of privacy since you didn't have your own house, or did you just make yourself at home?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, but I went back other times for short periods of time and because again I knew so many families, I knew I wanted to go up and see them. And one of the last places I went before I even left Fiji in '73 was I went back up there early in '73, you know, to visit them again right after Christmas. But the base of the time I was there was that first year I was in, like I said, '69 and '70. And then when I came back in '71, we started a new project in the cooperatives and I went around to different cooperative societies with a young cooperatives officer. He was just a probably not much more than a teenager. And we would go around to cooperatives and villages for a one-night lesson on cooperative principles. You know, what the meaning of cooperative is, a little bit of management, just different things, around the kava bowl.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And we did that to an awful lot of villages around Vanua Levu. And, you know, we'd drink grog and they'd feed us and we'd talk about, you know, whatever they wanted to talk about.

[Assistant] So he was your local counterpart?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you remember his name?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And we did that to an awful lot of villages around Vanua Levu. And, you know, we'd drink grog and they'd feed us and we'd talk about, you know, whatever they wanted to talk about.

[Assistant] So he was your local counterpart?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you remember his name?

[User] Yeah, Ismoey Johnny Vesey, I think he. I don't know what. Imosey Danny Vesey. I don't know if he's still in the Cooperative Department or not. He's one of the ones I never did look up when I went back. But some of, a lot of the others I, you know, I saw when I went back like in 1990, you know. So 2011. Of course, a lot of them have died. But he's probably the youngest one that, you know, that I've worked with. So I did that.

[Assistant] Where were you living then? You had left Thikombia so where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Do you remember his name?

[User] Yeah, Ismoey Johnny Vesey, I think he. I don't know what. Imosey Danny Vesey. I don't know if he's still in the Cooperative Department or not. He's one of the ones I never did look up when I went back. But some of, a lot of the others I, you know, I saw when I went back like in 1990, you know. So 2011. Of course, a lot of them have died. But he's probably the youngest one that, you know, that I've worked with. So I did that.

[Assistant] Where were you living then? You had left Thikombia so where?

[User] They had, when I came back in early in '71, they had a batch of bachelors in Labasa, or people that.

[Assistant] So you're back in Labasa again?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] They had, when I came back in early in '71, they had a batch of bachelors in Labasa, or people that.

[Assistant] So you're back in Labasa again?

[User] Yeah. You know, single people who worked government jobs.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And I had a room there. So when I'd go out on these, you know, maybe go out for four or five, you know, during the week to these other places with.

[Assistant] OK, so it was the bachelor's quarters for the local Fiji government workers?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. You know, single people who worked government jobs.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] And I had a room there. So when I'd go out on these, you know, maybe go out for four or five, you know, during the week to these other places with.

[Assistant] OK, so it was the bachelor's quarters for the local Fiji government workers?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So the rest of the people there were Fijian and Indian?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And I had a room there. So when I'd go out on these, you know, maybe go out for four or five, you know, during the week to these other places with.

[Assistant] OK, so it was the bachelor's quarters for the local Fiji government workers?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So the rest of the people there were Fijian and Indian?

[User] Yeah, that's right. And you could eat there too. So that was a good place to be. And so that's where I stayed while I was there. And I did that, like I said, from January until about I think it was about April or May. And I was down at Nabouwalu one time and Laisenia Qarase, who was at the time was in charge of the Coops Department. You know who that is, don't you?

[Assistant] I've heard the name.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] So the rest of the people there were Fijian and Indian?

[User] Yeah, that's right. And you could eat there too. So that was a good place to be. And so that's where I stayed while I was there. And I did that, like I said, from January until about I think it was about April or May. And I was down at Nabouwalu one time and Laisenia Qarase, who was at the time was in charge of the Coops Department. You know who that is, don't you?

[Assistant] I've heard the name.

[User] Yeah, he was also a prime minister that got deposed back early, you know, 2000s. But anyway, he asked me, he was down there, there was some kind of cooperative convention or something down there. And he asked me if I'd be interested in going to the Cooperatives Education Center and be in charge of that, the warden there at Lami. And so I went over there. Like I said, this was in like the middle of '71.

[Assistant] So and Lami is where?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, that's right. And you could eat there too. So that was a good place to be. And so that's where I stayed while I was there. And I did that, like I said, from January until about I think it was about April or May. And I was down at Nabouwalu one time and Laisenia Qarase, who was at the time was in charge of the Coops Department. You know who that is, don't you?

[Assistant] I've heard the name.

[User] Yeah, he was also a prime minister that got deposed back early, you know, 2000s. But anyway, he asked me, he was down there, there was some kind of cooperative convention or something down there. And he asked me if I'd be interested in going to the Cooperatives Education Center and be in charge of that, the warden there at Lami. And so I went over there. Like I said, this was in like the middle of '71.

[Assistant] So and Lami is where?

[User] It's next to Suva.

[Assistant] Suva. So it was a different island.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, he was also a prime minister that got deposed back early, you know, 2000s. But anyway, he asked me, he was down there, there was some kind of cooperative convention or something down there. And he asked me if I'd be interested in going to the Cooperatives Education Center and be in charge of that, the warden there at Lami. And so I went over there. Like I said, this was in like the middle of '71.

[Assistant] So and Lami is where?

[User] It's next to Suva.

[Assistant] Suva. So it was a different island.

[User] Oh yeah, it was back on Viti Levu.

[Assistant] And Suva is the capital city.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It's next to Suva.

[Assistant] Suva. So it was a different island.

[User] Oh yeah, it was back on Viti Levu.

[Assistant] And Suva is the capital city.

[User]
Yeah. It was right next to Suva. So anyway, so I went over there and talked. I knew the guy that was charge, it was an English guy. It was called VSO, Voluntary Service Overseas, from England. He had been in charge of that and he was getting ready to go back. I think it's two years or something. And they didn't have anybody else from England coming over and they wondered if I'd take over. So I went over there and figured, well, you know, why not? That seemed like a good job. So I went over there and I had, the courses that we had for the most part were like five week courses. And they were on bookkeeping, cooperative principles, cooperative law. And I forget what else about cooperatives.

And we would take people from these villages that I had been visiting all along, you know, the secretaries and treasurers and even storekeepers, and teach them bookkeeping. And that was the main thing. And like I said, even corporate management in five weeks long. And the good thing about that was up until that time, the English VSOs didn't, were not, didn't have language training. So they were teaching it all in English. And a lot of the Fijians, like I mentioned before, if they hadn't been around, you know, in a situation, their English might not be that good. So we started teaching the courses in Fijian and we, you know, we'd translate everything into it and that seemed to be a plus for doing that.

And also each year we'd have an overseas course. It was the second, like a secondary course for people from secondary cooperatives, which are bigger cooperatives. And they came from places like the Solomons, Solomon Islands, and Kiribati.

[Assistant] They would come to Fiji?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah. I mean the Indians did have some like sugar cane and stuff, but not as much as the Fijians did. So I did that until, uh. Let's see. Kind of the end of '70, close to the end of '72. And I had a cooperatives officer, Fijian, for working with me. And when I, you know, when it came time for me to leave, he took it over, you know, took charge of it. And so we were able to localize that position.

[Assistant] Was this the same guy that you mentioned before or a different guy?

[User] No, this is Joele Colati.

[Assistant] Joele?

[User] Colati. C-O-L-A-T-I. And I think he's deceased. So he took charge when I left. And so I officially left, I left in as of the 1st of January 1973, but I didn't really leave for four more months because I did some more work for, I think, written some reports on the last overseas course we'd had. And also I took a month's trip to New Zealand and Australia and came back to Fiji for a while. I didn't want to leave. And I think I finally left in about.

[Assistant] You were there for almost five years altogether?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Colati. C-O-L-A-T-I. And I think he's deceased. So he took charge when I left. And so I officially left, I left in as of the 1st of January 1973, but I didn't really leave for four more months because I did some more work for, I think, written some reports on the last overseas course we'd had. And also I took a month's trip to New Zealand and Australia and came back to Fiji for a while. I didn't want to leave. And I think I finally left in about.

[Assistant] You were there for almost five years altogether?

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So I probably left in April or May of '73.

[Assistant] Yeah, you reached your limit. So far you've lived in Labasa, Thikombia, Labasa again, and then back in Suva?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] OK.

[User] So I probably left in April or May of '73.

[Assistant] Yeah, you reached your limit. So far you've lived in Labasa, Thikombia, Labasa again, and then back in Suva?

[User] Yeah, a lot.

[Assistant] Very different. Very different situations. How did you like living in Suva compared to the other places?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, a lot.

[Assistant] Very different. Very different situations. How did you like living in Suva compared to the other places?

[User] Well, I mean, it was more, it was away from the village and I remember that the job that I had being in charge of that was, of course, it was much, much more stressful than the other jobs I'd had. I remember that because, you know, like there were like 40 people taking those courses. And, you know, I had to be, order the food, and, you know, the cooks and, you know, be the, and also teach. So I remember it was a job that was something I kind of looked forward to completing whenever I did, you know?

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I mean, I was alright with doing it while I was doing it, but it was something I was, it was not, it was not that much in my comfort zone as the other things had been.

[Assistant] So talking about Peace Corps' goals. One is to provide technical assistance where requested. And in your position there, it sounds like you did quite a bit of that. How do you think your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, got paid more. And the big mountains of coconuts went down and, you know, the coconuts got processed and sent to market and things got right. But it even took me a while before I understood it. And later on I realized, I must have been pretty stupid not to realize it. But then after it happened, everything was good. I mean, it was, uh.

[Assistant] But that wasn't a standard practice, so you had to implement that?

[User] Well, at least in Thikombia. I'm not sure what they do, you know, other places, how they would, you know, do it communally or not. But that was a big eye opener. But again, the whole thing about getting them to, you know, not give credit was awful. You know, it was difficult because, you know, sometimes they would. The co-op officers would go in cooperatives and they would, the bookkeeper would have a book of, you know, that all the sales were in, and they would have another book that had the credit in it. And the co-op officers usually were wise to it and would say, well, let's see your other book too. And the other book was kind of their downfall because that was the one that they got all these goods without any money coming in.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then when I went back there in 1990, I noticed that cooperatives had, uh, the emphasis on cooperatives had gone down a lot. And as it turned out, it looked like for largely, I think a lot of the people who had learned, you know, how to do the bookkeeping and management and all that in cooperatives, they took that knowledge and started going out on their own, private enterprise.

[Assistant] Starting a private business.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Well, at least in Thikombia. I'm not sure what they do, you know, other places, how they would, you know, do it communally or not. But that was a big eye opener. But again, the whole thing about getting them to, you know, not give credit was awful. You know, it was difficult because, you know, sometimes they would. The co-op officers would go in cooperatives and they would, the bookkeeper would have a book of, you know, that all the sales were in, and they would have another book that had the credit in it. And the co-op officers usually were wise to it and would say, well, let's see your other book too. And the other book was kind of their downfall because that was the one that they got all these goods without any money coming in.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And then when I went back there in 1990, I noticed that cooperatives had, uh, the emphasis on cooperatives had gone down a lot. And as it turned out, it looked like for largely, I think a lot of the people who had learned, you know, how to do the bookkeeping and management and all that in cooperatives, they took that knowledge and started going out on their own, private enterprise.

[Assistant] Starting a private business.

[User] And that's what happened a lot because cooperatives, as far as I know, are not anything as prevalent. I think maybe their time had kind of, you know, because they were useful, because they taught people how to, you know, the business savvy. But as far as the cooperative part of it, it just looked like maybe they're kind of, you know, going by the wayside. So that was an interesting thing that I found out when I went back there.

[Assistant] How about Peace Corps' goal to promote a better understanding of Americans? Being the only American when you're out there on Thikombia, do you feel like you had some impact there?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And that's what happened a lot because cooperatives, as far as I know, are not anything as prevalent. I think maybe their time had kind of, you know, because they were useful, because they taught people how to, you know, the business savvy. But as far as the cooperative part of it, it just looked like maybe they're kind of, you know, going by the wayside. So that was an interesting thing that I found out when I went back there.

[Assistant] How about Peace Corps' goal to promote a better understanding of Americans? Being the only American when you're out there on Thikombia, do you feel like you had some impact there?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, as I've said before, since the last couple of times I've been back, especially last summer, there's so many people up on that island now, kids and grandkids, that I keep up with on, you know, like on Facebook. And it's amazing. I mean, I think being up there, we became friends for life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I really think because there's so many people from Thikombia that I keep in touch with now. Some of them live in California and a lot of them we've become friends. And the next time I go back, I'm going to be looking up a bunch of them again. But again, that's from the. But over the years, like when I went back in 1990, there weren't that many, there wasn't anything like the internet or anything then. But I still looked up, went back to Thikombia, actually took my wife up to Thikombia. And, you know, I saw a bunch of people that I'd known. So it was life changing and continues to be.

[Assistant] Do you recall any big revelations there about, or maybe things that surprised people about you or maybe that changed their assumptions about what Americans were like?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, as I've said before, since the last couple of times I've been back, especially last summer, there's so many people up on that island now, kids and grandkids, that I keep up with on, you know, like on Facebook. And it's amazing. I mean, I think being up there, we became friends for life.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] I really think because there's so many people from Thikombia that I keep in touch with now. Some of them live in California and a lot of them we've become friends. And the next time I go back, I'm going to be looking up a bunch of them again. But again, that's from the. But over the years, like when I went back in 1990, there weren't that many, there wasn't anything like the internet or anything then. But I still looked up, went back to Thikombia, actually took my wife up to Thikombia. And, you know, I saw a bunch of people that I'd known. So it was life changing and continues to be.

[Assistant] Do you recall any big revelations there about, or maybe things that surprised people about you or maybe that changed their assumptions about what Americans were like?

[User] Hmm. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that, but I do know that. Excuse me. [coughs] The son of the family I stayed with up there, I'm back in touch with him now. I stayed with him last summer. He's 60 now, has kids and grandkids. And he mentioned something I'd completely forgotten about, that I'd helped him pay some school fees. I'd helped send him to secondary school when I was up there.

[Assistant] That was when you were a volunteer?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I really think because there's so many people from Thikombia that I keep in touch with now. Some of them live in California and a lot of them we've become friends. And the next time I go back, I'm going to be looking up a bunch of them again. But again, that's from the. But over the years, like when I went back in 1990, there weren't that many, there wasn't anything like the internet or anything then. But I still looked up, went back to Thikombia, actually took my wife up to Thikombia. And, you know, I saw a bunch of people that I'd known. So it was life changing and continues to be.

[Assistant] Do you recall any big revelations there about, or maybe things that surprised people about you or maybe that changed their assumptions about what Americans were like?

[User] Hmm. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that, but I do know that. Excuse me. [coughs] The son of the family I stayed with up there, I'm back in touch with him now. I stayed with him last summer. He's 60 now, has kids and grandkids. And he mentioned something I'd completely forgotten about, that I'd helped him pay some school fees. I'd helped send him to secondary school when I was up there.

[Assistant] That was when you were a volunteer?

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, I've forgotten about it, but it was something that, you know, he'd always forgotten, always remembered. But again, it just remembering all those people and, you know, loving them and everything. I think that's one reason they remembered me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, then there's the goal of promoting a better understanding of other people by Americans. And you started out talking about how in the Navy you had had some experience with developing countries that were less fortunate cultures.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Hmm. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that, but I do know that. Excuse me. [coughs] The son of the family I stayed with up there, I'm back in touch with him now. I stayed with him last summer. He's 60 now, has kids and grandkids. And he mentioned something I'd completely forgotten about, that I'd helped him pay some school fees. I'd helped send him to secondary school when I was up there.

[Assistant] That was when you were a volunteer?

[User] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, I've forgotten about it, but it was something that, you know, he'd always forgotten, always remembered. But again, it just remembering all those people and, you know, loving them and everything. I think that's one reason they remembered me.

[Assistant] Yeah. Well, then there's the goal of promoting a better understanding of other people by Americans. And you started out talking about how in the Navy you had had some experience with developing countries that were less fortunate cultures.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And your time in the Peace Corps, do you think that changed your view of people or gave you a better understanding?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] And your time in the Peace Corps, do you think that changed your view of people or gave you a better understanding?

[User]
Yeah, but Fijians for the most part weren't that, you know, they seemed like they always had food. It wasn't like they were in poverty, like some of these other places are. I mean, I'm sure there are places in Fiji where people are really down and out, but it seems like the families in Fiji helped carry people along. You know, so one member of the family's having problems, the other, you know, the other members will help. And of course that's the cultural thing anyway. Also because it was like if somebody needed something and somebody else could help them, it was culturally they should. And I think that was just an important part of the culture. And so, at times I helped different things that.

Actually the guy that I stayed with, he was [inaudible] on Thikombia and he had gotten in trouble somehow with the law, with some, I'm not sure what it was, but they came up there one time. The police came up there and got him took him back to Labasa, and he had to go to trial for something or another. And he said he was going to pay so much or he had to go to jail. So I ended up paying that too.

[Assistant] Oh no.

[User] But again, I didn't mind doing it. And it was, you know, something I could have refused to do, but I didn't want to refuse because I, you know, had enough money to do it. But, you know, different ways you could help out. And I think that, I think enough, I think in that way the people realized where your heart is.

[Assistant] So after five years in the country, you had a lot of close friends and it must have been really hard to leave.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User]
Yeah, but Fijians for the most part weren't that, you know, they seemed like they always had food. It wasn't like they were in poverty, like some of these other places are. I mean, I'm sure there are places in Fiji where people are really down and out, but it seems like the families in Fiji helped carry people along. You know, so one member of the family's having problems, the other, you know, the other members will help. And of course that's the cultural thing anyway. Also because it was like if somebody needed something and somebody else could help them, it was culturally they should. And I think that was just an important part of the culture. And so, at times I helped different things that.

Actually the guy that I stayed with, he was [inaudible] on Thikombia and he had gotten in trouble somehow with the law, with some, I'm not sure what it was, but they came up there one time. The police came up there and got him took him back to Labasa, and he had to go to trial for something or another. And he said he was going to pay so much or he had to go to jail. So I ended up paying that too.

[Assistant] Oh no.

[User] But again, I didn't mind doing it. And it was, you know, something I could have refused to do, but I didn't want to refuse because I, you know, had enough money to do it. But, you know, different ways you could help out. And I think that, I think enough, I think in that way the people realized where your heart is.

[Assistant] So after five years in the country, you had a lot of close friends and it must have been really hard to leave.

[User] Oh, it was.

[Assistant] Do you remember that day when you had to get on the plane?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, it was.

[Assistant] Do you remember that day when you had to get on the plane?

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was sad.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it took me, when I came back here, I think, like a lot of Peace Corps, they travel around a while. And when I first came back, I came across country in a bus and I even I went and looked up Mike Babich.

[Assistant] Oh you did?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was sad.

[Assistant] Yeah.

[User] And it took me, when I came back here, I think, like a lot of Peace Corps, they travel around a while. And when I first came back, I came across country in a bus and I even I went and looked up Mike Babich.

[Assistant] Oh you did?

[User] Yeah, my roommate.

[Assistant] He didn't stay for five years?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] And it took me, when I came back here, I think, like a lot of Peace Corps, they travel around a while. And when I first came back, I came across country in a bus and I even I went and looked up Mike Babich.

[Assistant] Oh you did?

[User] Yeah, my roommate.

[Assistant] He didn't stay for five years?

[User] No, no, unfortunately. But and I still talk to him once in a while. He's working at a co-op up above Philadelphia that's like a big farm. And people with handicaps work there, live there and work there. And he's one of the administrators there. So it looks like he found himself a good niche.

[Assistant] So what kind of effect has your Peace Corps service had on the rest of your life since then?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] Tell us about that trip.

[User] Yeah, well, I think one of the goals of. I went back in 1990 first, took my wife for three weeks, and we went around a lot of places and looked up people we'd known. And then my wife, I went in 2011, we did a project. My wife had passed away in 2007, but we had a project. We did a project for the Habitat for Humanity. And the way I feel like going back to Fiji was if I'm going to go that far, I need to do something, you know, not be selfish, like not be a tourist. And that's why I really appreciated what we did back in 2011, because I was able to do that for the first week and then go up to Labasa the second week and look up people. And the same thing last year. You know, that project we did at Ba was, I thought it was excellent. But then I was able to go around and see other people. I didn't get to Labasa, but I visited some other people that were from Thikombia that lived around Nadi. And one of them's growing sandalwood. He's in the sandalwood business now. And that's the son of the man, family I stayed with up in Thikombia.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So I've really enjoyed going back, but I would not want to go back as a tourist. I haven't gotten close to a tourist resort. Just not interested in doing that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So 50 years later you're still connected with Fiji and Peace Corps is still a big part of your life.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yeah, well, I think one of the goals of. I went back in 1990 first, took my wife for three weeks, and we went around a lot of places and looked up people we'd known. And then my wife, I went in 2011, we did a project. My wife had passed away in 2007, but we had a project. We did a project for the Habitat for Humanity. And the way I feel like going back to Fiji was if I'm going to go that far, I need to do something, you know, not be selfish, like not be a tourist. And that's why I really appreciated what we did back in 2011, because I was able to do that for the first week and then go up to Labasa the second week and look up people. And the same thing last year. You know, that project we did at Ba was, I thought it was excellent. But then I was able to go around and see other people. I didn't get to Labasa, but I visited some other people that were from Thikombia that lived around Nadi. And one of them's growing sandalwood. He's in the sandalwood business now. And that's the son of the man, family I stayed with up in Thikombia.

[Assistant] Wow.

[User] So I've really enjoyed going back, but I would not want to go back as a tourist. I haven't gotten close to a tourist resort. Just not interested in doing that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So 50 years later you're still connected with Fiji and Peace Corps is still a big part of your life.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That's great. Anything else you'd like to add? Any stories you remember that might be interesting or?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] So I've really enjoyed going back, but I would not want to go back as a tourist. I haven't gotten close to a tourist resort. Just not interested in doing that.

[Assistant] Yeah. So 50 years later you're still connected with Fiji and Peace Corps is still a big part of your life.

[User] Yeah.

[Assistant] That's great. Anything else you'd like to add? Any stories you remember that might be interesting or?

[User] Um, let me think. I can't think of anything offhand.

[Assistant] OK. All right, Lew. Well, thanks a lot. It's been a great interview.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Absolutely. Our lawyer, Ragan [L.] Powers, who is a brilliant lawyer and a great guy, and a dear friend, worked very closely with his counterpart. I felt the discussions there were very professional, and when we worked through the terms and conditions of our Space Act Agreement, I felt the working relationship was very good.

[Assistant] What, for you, was the biggest challenge working on this program in your role at Rocketplane Kistler?

[User] Getting the commitment to raise the $500 million. When I first went to Rocketplane Kistler, that was not supposed to be my role, but I ended up doing that as well. I became the lead in that effort. It was a new experience for me, and I certainly learned from it. My experience had not been on Wall Street and road shows, but fortunately Jefferies Quarterdeck put me through a very painful boot camp before we did go on the road show. The quality of our presentation and that sort of thing I don’t think was ever an issue. It was never an issue about the capabilities of the management team. The real issue was the financeability and the disconnect with the lack of a follow-on servicing contract.

[Assistant] Since you said that was not your role when you originally joined Kistler, what was your role?

[User] My role was not to raise the money. My role was to win the COTS competition, and to lead the team to develop the vehicle, not unlike what I did at the Space Station.

[Assistant] So you were more focused on the technical side at that time?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Getting the commitment to raise the $500 million. When I first went to Rocketplane Kistler, that was not supposed to be my role, but I ended up doing that as well. I became the lead in that effort. It was a new experience for me, and I certainly learned from it. My experience had not been on Wall Street and road shows, but fortunately Jefferies Quarterdeck put me through a very painful boot camp before we did go on the road show. The quality of our presentation and that sort of thing I don’t think was ever an issue. It was never an issue about the capabilities of the management team. The real issue was the financeability and the disconnect with the lack of a follow-on servicing contract.

[Assistant] Since you said that was not your role when you originally joined Kistler, what was your role?

[User] My role was not to raise the money. My role was to win the COTS competition, and to lead the team to develop the vehicle, not unlike what I did at the Space Station.

[Assistant] So you were more focused on the technical side at that time?

[User] It was like being the Space Station Program Manager. I was in Johnson Space Center or in Baikonur [Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan], making sure all of the modules were being built, stayed on schedule, and they would actually work. My job was not in Washington, DC, to go to Congress to commit to funding. Occasionally I’d have to do it, but that wasn’t my full-time role.\n\n I started out focusing on building the vehicle and staying on schedule and cost, and managing like a program manager, but ended up assuming the responsibilities of, in addition to that, going to raise the money.

[Assistant] Do you have any additional thoughts or reflections you’d like to share before we close today?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] My role was not to raise the money. My role was to win the COTS competition, and to lead the team to develop the vehicle, not unlike what I did at the Space Station.

[Assistant] So you were more focused on the technical side at that time?

[User] It was like being the Space Station Program Manager. I was in Johnson Space Center or in Baikonur [Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan], making sure all of the modules were being built, stayed on schedule, and they would actually work. My job was not in Washington, DC, to go to Congress to commit to funding. Occasionally I’d have to do it, but that wasn’t my full-time role.\n\n I started out focusing on building the vehicle and staying on schedule and cost, and managing like a program manager, but ended up assuming the responsibilities of, in addition to that, going to raise the money.

[Assistant] Do you have any additional thoughts or reflections you’d like to share before we close today?

[User] I would say that I’m really happy and pleased to see the success of SpaceX and the recent success of Orbital. At the end of the day, although I’m disappointed about Rocketplane Kistler and the K-1, that’s secondary to the fact that COTS has been successful.\n\n We now are in a position to get the Russians off the critical path, at least for cargo, and to be able to take cargo up and bring cargo back with a reliable transportation system, particularly science. We, in the future, should be able to see the opportunity to have breakthrough science associated with the Space Station, which was the purpose to begin with. I’m very pleased to see how things have worked out, and that we’ve got two providers that have so far been successful in terms of meeting their capabilities to provide cargo to the Space Station.

[Assistant] Thank you very much for sharing all that with us today. We very much appreciate it.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] It was like being the Space Station Program Manager. I was in Johnson Space Center or in Baikonur [Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan], making sure all of the modules were being built, stayed on schedule, and they would actually work. My job was not in Washington, DC, to go to Congress to commit to funding. Occasionally I’d have to do it, but that wasn’t my full-time role.\n\n I started out focusing on building the vehicle and staying on schedule and cost, and managing like a program manager, but ended up assuming the responsibilities of, in addition to that, going to raise the money.

[Assistant] Do you have any additional thoughts or reflections you’d like to share before we close today?

[User] I would say that I’m really happy and pleased to see the success of SpaceX and the recent success of Orbital. At the end of the day, although I’m disappointed about Rocketplane Kistler and the K-1, that’s secondary to the fact that COTS has been successful.\n\n We now are in a position to get the Russians off the critical path, at least for cargo, and to be able to take cargo up and bring cargo back with a reliable transportation system, particularly science. We, in the future, should be able to see the opportunity to have breakthrough science associated with the Space Station, which was the purpose to begin with. I’m very pleased to see how things have worked out, and that we’ve got two providers that have so far been successful in terms of meeting their capabilities to provide cargo to the Space Station.

[Assistant] Thank you very much for sharing all that with us today. We very much appreciate it.

[User] It’s my pleasure. And I will send you a copy of the letter that I sent to Doc, and you guys will have it as part of the reference. It’s very consistent with our discussion.

[Assistant] We really appreciate your time, Randy. Have a great day. Thank you.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] You're welcome.

[Assistant] We'd like for you to start by just generally telling us what your roles and responsibilities have been with the Shuttle-Mir Program.

[User] I've served [both] as the secretary for the Deputy Director, who was Frank Culbertson at the time who got promoted to Director. Then, I became the Director's secretary. In that capacity, I am responsible for the functions of the [Phase 1] front office.

[Assistant] How long have you been doing that?

[User] Since November of '94 to the present.

[Assistant] So you and Frank have been together through many a times through these last few years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've served [both] as the secretary for the Deputy Director, who was Frank Culbertson at the time who got promoted to Director. Then, I became the Director's secretary. In that capacity, I am responsible for the functions of the [Phase 1] front office.

[Assistant] How long have you been doing that?

[User] Since November of '94 to the present.

[Assistant] So you and Frank have been together through many a times through these last few years.

[User] That's true. I started working for him in September of '85.

[Assistant] So I have to assume that that working partnership helped through the Shuttle-Mir Program, that you developed in the early years.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Since November of '94 to the present.

[Assistant] So you and Frank have been together through many a times through these last few years.

[User] That's true. I started working for him in September of '85.

[Assistant] So I have to assume that that working partnership helped through the Shuttle-Mir Program, that you developed in the early years.

[User] Very much so.

[Assistant] What did you do prior to becoming his assistant?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That's true. I started working for him in September of '85.

[Assistant] So I have to assume that that working partnership helped through the Shuttle-Mir Program, that you developed in the early years.

[User] Very much so.

[Assistant] What did you do prior to becoming his assistant?

[User] In the Shuttle-Mir Program, or before '94?

[Assistant] Before '94. Well, before the Shuttle-Mir Program, when you first starting working with Frank.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Very much so.

[Assistant] What did you do prior to becoming his assistant?

[User] In the Shuttle-Mir Program, or before '94?

[Assistant] Before '94. Well, before the Shuttle-Mir Program, when you first starting working with Frank.

[User] I was the crew secretary in the astronaut office. I worked with the Shuttle crews, their families, taking care of all their invitations, their guests, their VIPs, went with them to the Capes, saw that everybody followed the procedures down there, and returned.

[Assistant] And did all those experiences help you?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] In the Shuttle-Mir Program, or before '94?

[Assistant] Before '94. Well, before the Shuttle-Mir Program, when you first starting working with Frank.

[User] I was the crew secretary in the astronaut office. I worked with the Shuttle crews, their families, taking care of all their invitations, their guests, their VIPs, went with them to the Capes, saw that everybody followed the procedures down there, and returned.

[Assistant] And did all those experiences help you?

[User] Immensely.

[Assistant] Well, tell us, is there an average day in your job? Is there anything that's routine about your job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I was the crew secretary in the astronaut office. I worked with the Shuttle crews, their families, taking care of all their invitations, their guests, their VIPs, went with them to the Capes, saw that everybody followed the procedures down there, and returned.

[Assistant] And did all those experiences help you?

[User] Immensely.

[Assistant] Well, tell us, is there an average day in your job? Is there anything that's routine about your job?

[User] Not really. You do the same type things every day, they're just in a different order. There's always correspondence, phones, schedules, but they're very flexible and changing constantly.

[Assistant] How has it changed, say, from just the time that Frank was deputy director to becoming the program director? Did your duties change quite a bit?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Immensely.

[Assistant] Well, tell us, is there an average day in your job? Is there anything that's routine about your job?

[User] Not really. You do the same type things every day, they're just in a different order. There's always correspondence, phones, schedules, but they're very flexible and changing constantly.

[Assistant] How has it changed, say, from just the time that Frank was deputy director to becoming the program director? Did your duties change quite a bit?

[User] Yes. I became the lead secretary, so therefore that put two to three secretaries under me at the time, which added to responsibilities. Frank's position increased greatly, which caused mine to increase, and the workload to increase.

[Assistant] What's the hardest part? Is it keeping up with Frank, or is it keeping up with schedules, or keeping up with phone calls? What's the most difficult part of your day-to-day job?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Not really. You do the same type things every day, they're just in a different order. There's always correspondence, phones, schedules, but they're very flexible and changing constantly.

[Assistant] How has it changed, say, from just the time that Frank was deputy director to becoming the program director? Did your duties change quite a bit?

[User] Yes. I became the lead secretary, so therefore that put two to three secretaries under me at the time, which added to responsibilities. Frank's position increased greatly, which caused mine to increase, and the workload to increase.

[Assistant] What's the hardest part? Is it keeping up with Frank, or is it keeping up with schedules, or keeping up with phone calls? What's the most difficult part of your day-to-day job?

[User] Rearranging the schedule to work both for what he needs and what needs to be accomplished in the office.

[Assistant] How has your position changed as far as meeting responsibilities? Do you find yourself going to more and more meetings during the last few years with the Shuttle-Mir Program that maybe you did prior to Frank moving into this position?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes. I became the lead secretary, so therefore that put two to three secretaries under me at the time, which added to responsibilities. Frank's position increased greatly, which caused mine to increase, and the workload to increase.

[Assistant] What's the hardest part? Is it keeping up with Frank, or is it keeping up with schedules, or keeping up with phone calls? What's the most difficult part of your day-to-day job?

[User] Rearranging the schedule to work both for what he needs and what needs to be accomplished in the office.

[Assistant] How has your position changed as far as meeting responsibilities? Do you find yourself going to more and more meetings during the last few years with the Shuttle-Mir Program that maybe you did prior to Frank moving into this position?

[User] I've gone to a few more meetings, not necessarily so much the technical side of the Shuttle-Mir Program, but more in like archiving the records, the projects like the Shuttle-Mir Oral History Project I've become involved with. Starting to go to more meetings with the International Space Station now, and getting more involved doing that.

[Assistant] When you did everything you did prior to Shuttle-Mir, you dealt mostly with American and American families. But, of course, this program had an added benefit that you never had before, and that was dealing with the international partners. Tell us how that came about, and what were some of the first times. Can you remember maybe the first time that you ever met the Russians? Was that here in your office?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Rearranging the schedule to work both for what he needs and what needs to be accomplished in the office.

[Assistant] How has your position changed as far as meeting responsibilities? Do you find yourself going to more and more meetings during the last few years with the Shuttle-Mir Program that maybe you did prior to Frank moving into this position?

[User] I've gone to a few more meetings, not necessarily so much the technical side of the Shuttle-Mir Program, but more in like archiving the records, the projects like the Shuttle-Mir Oral History Project I've become involved with. Starting to go to more meetings with the International Space Station now, and getting more involved doing that.

[Assistant] When you did everything you did prior to Shuttle-Mir, you dealt mostly with American and American families. But, of course, this program had an added benefit that you never had before, and that was dealing with the international partners. Tell us how that came about, and what were some of the first times. Can you remember maybe the first time that you ever met the Russians? Was that here in your office?

[User] No, that was over in the astronaut office. It was Sergei Krikalev was the first one I met, and Pavel Titov.

[Assistant] Was that part of their STS-60?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I've gone to a few more meetings, not necessarily so much the technical side of the Shuttle-Mir Program, but more in like archiving the records, the projects like the Shuttle-Mir Oral History Project I've become involved with. Starting to go to more meetings with the International Space Station now, and getting more involved doing that.

[Assistant] When you did everything you did prior to Shuttle-Mir, you dealt mostly with American and American families. But, of course, this program had an added benefit that you never had before, and that was dealing with the international partners. Tell us how that came about, and what were some of the first times. Can you remember maybe the first time that you ever met the Russians? Was that here in your office?

[User] No, that was over in the astronaut office. It was Sergei Krikalev was the first one I met, and Pavel Titov.

[Assistant] Was that part of their STS-60?

[User] STS-60 and STS-63 flights. That was the first exposure and then the Russians starting coming over, and I met some of the flight surgeons. I tried to learn a little bit of Russian, learned not to speak it around them, because once you spoke a few words, they thought you knew it all and just started speaking in Russian. [Laughter]

[Assistant] How was their English?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, that was over in the astronaut office. It was Sergei Krikalev was the first one I met, and Pavel Titov.

[Assistant] Was that part of their STS-60?

[User] STS-60 and STS-63 flights. That was the first exposure and then the Russians starting coming over, and I met some of the flight surgeons. I tried to learn a little bit of Russian, learned not to speak it around them, because once you spoke a few words, they thought you knew it all and just started speaking in Russian. [Laughter]

[Assistant] How was their English?

[User] Some of them had very good English, and some of them you needed interpreters with completely.

[Assistant] Was that another part of your responsibility, helping with the translators and the interpreters?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] STS-60 and STS-63 flights. That was the first exposure and then the Russians starting coming over, and I met some of the flight surgeons. I tried to learn a little bit of Russian, learned not to speak it around them, because once you spoke a few words, they thought you knew it all and just started speaking in Russian. [Laughter]

[Assistant] How was their English?

[User] Some of them had very good English, and some of them you needed interpreters with completely.

[Assistant] Was that another part of your responsibility, helping with the translators and the interpreters?

[User] I did the logistics portion of it. I [requested and authorized] them when they were needed, saw they were at the right meeting places, that we had the right numbers of interpreters, sent [information] off to be translated for the documentation, saw that it came back and matched up as much as I could. [I] arranged for that kind of interpretation down at the Cape [in] Florida and anywheres else where they traveled. [I] took some Russian [classes] myself, but it's a difficult language to learn and you have to really stay at it, [and at the time the work load in the office precluded being away, attending class four times a week].

[Assistant] The trips to the Cape, what all were your responsibilities as far as those? How often did you have to go down to the Cape? Was that every mission?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Some of them had very good English, and some of them you needed interpreters with completely.

[Assistant] Was that another part of your responsibility, helping with the translators and the interpreters?

[User] I did the logistics portion of it. I [requested and authorized] them when they were needed, saw they were at the right meeting places, that we had the right numbers of interpreters, sent [information] off to be translated for the documentation, saw that it came back and matched up as much as I could. [I] arranged for that kind of interpretation down at the Cape [in] Florida and anywheres else where they traveled. [I] took some Russian [classes] myself, but it's a difficult language to learn and you have to really stay at it, [and at the time the work load in the office precluded being away, attending class four times a week].

[Assistant] The trips to the Cape, what all were your responsibilities as far as those? How often did you have to go down to the Cape? Was that every mission?

[User] No, I went to every other mission for the Shuttle-Mir Program. Just logistics, you set up all your Team Zero [meetings], which was a joint working group meeting between the Russians and the Americans. I handled all the meeting places, [coordinating] their meeting schedule, saw to it they got to the places they were supposed to get on time. I set up any of the receptions that were needed down there; took care of them for their tours; their viewing of the launch; saw to it they got from the airport to the airport [by making arrangements with TechTrans Inc. (TTI)]; took care of the Americans that were down there supporting those meetings; making sure that the faxes were sent; the meetings were set up. Some of the [meetings were held at] two or three o'clock in the morning, since they were eight to nine hours ahead of us in Russia. Sometimes it required multiple meetings.

[Assistant] Meetings upon meetings, right?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] I did the logistics portion of it. I [requested and authorized] them when they were needed, saw they were at the right meeting places, that we had the right numbers of interpreters, sent [information] off to be translated for the documentation, saw that it came back and matched up as much as I could. [I] arranged for that kind of interpretation down at the Cape [in] Florida and anywheres else where they traveled. [I] took some Russian [classes] myself, but it's a difficult language to learn and you have to really stay at it, [and at the time the work load in the office precluded being away, attending class four times a week].

[Assistant] The trips to the Cape, what all were your responsibilities as far as those? How often did you have to go down to the Cape? Was that every mission?

[User] No, I went to every other mission for the Shuttle-Mir Program. Just logistics, you set up all your Team Zero [meetings], which was a joint working group meeting between the Russians and the Americans. I handled all the meeting places, [coordinating] their meeting schedule, saw to it they got to the places they were supposed to get on time. I set up any of the receptions that were needed down there; took care of them for their tours; their viewing of the launch; saw to it they got from the airport to the airport [by making arrangements with TechTrans Inc. (TTI)]; took care of the Americans that were down there supporting those meetings; making sure that the faxes were sent; the meetings were set up. Some of the [meetings were held at] two or three o'clock in the morning, since they were eight to nine hours ahead of us in Russia. Sometimes it required multiple meetings.

[Assistant] Meetings upon meetings, right?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you have a Russian counterpart? Was there somebody on the other side that you could deal with directly, or did you talk to lots of people when you called Moscow?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] No, I went to every other mission for the Shuttle-Mir Program. Just logistics, you set up all your Team Zero [meetings], which was a joint working group meeting between the Russians and the Americans. I handled all the meeting places, [coordinating] their meeting schedule, saw to it they got to the places they were supposed to get on time. I set up any of the receptions that were needed down there; took care of them for their tours; their viewing of the launch; saw to it they got from the airport to the airport [by making arrangements with TechTrans Inc. (TTI)]; took care of the Americans that were down there supporting those meetings; making sure that the faxes were sent; the meetings were set up. Some of the [meetings were held at] two or three o'clock in the morning, since they were eight to nine hours ahead of us in Russia. Sometimes it required multiple meetings.

[Assistant] Meetings upon meetings, right?

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you have a Russian counterpart? Was there somebody on the other side that you could deal with directly, or did you talk to lots of people when you called Moscow?

[User] We talked to lots of people. There are secretaries over in Star City, Natasha being one of them, [she was very helpful]. We dealt with her some. Mostly it was Americans over in the TsUP and in the Embassy that we dealt with, or our Director of Operations in Russia, who has different people at times.

[Assistant] Did it take you a while to get used to getting phone calls from Russia, or was that just something that became part of your daily duty as well?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] Yes.

[Assistant] Did you have a Russian counterpart? Was there somebody on the other side that you could deal with directly, or did you talk to lots of people when you called Moscow?

[User] We talked to lots of people. There are secretaries over in Star City, Natasha being one of them, [she was very helpful]. We dealt with her some. Mostly it was Americans over in the TsUP and in the Embassy that we dealt with, or our Director of Operations in Russia, who has different people at times.

[Assistant] Did it take you a while to get used to getting phone calls from Russia, or was that just something that became part of your daily duty as well?

[User] That was just something that became part of the daily duty, because with the Shuttle Program, we had Swedish people, we had French people, German, from different payloads and different astronauts. So that's just something that we've dealt with for a long period of time.

[Assistant] Is language the hardest part, or was there something else that you felt to be difficult when you had such a variety of international partners, especially the Russians?


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] We talked to lots of people. There are secretaries over in Star City, Natasha being one of them, [she was very helpful]. We dealt with her some. Mostly it was Americans over in the TsUP and in the Embassy that we dealt with, or our Director of Operations in Russia, who has different people at times.

[Assistant] Did it take you a while to get used to getting phone calls from Russia, or was that just something that became part of your daily duty as well?

[User] That was just something that became part of the daily duty, because with the Shuttle Program, we had Swedish people, we had French people, German, from different payloads and different astronauts. So that's just something that we've dealt with for a long period of time.

[Assistant] Is language the hardest part, or was there something else that you felt to be difficult when you had such a variety of international partners, especially the Russians?

[User] The language is a difficulty, but then again you have the interpreters. They have a different way of looking at life than what we do. Whereas we're more linear and time controlled, they're more people oriented. They may be an hour late for a meeting and think nothing of it, because they were doing something with the families, whereas if the Americans are an hour late, they want to know why you're an hour late.

[Assistant] I guess that just made your job more of a challenge to get those meetings rescheduled.


[System] Act as an information elicitation agent for oral history.

[User] That was just something that became part of the daily duty, because with the Shuttle Program, we had Swedish people, we had French people, German, from different payloads and different astronauts. So that's just something that we've dealt with for a long period of time.

[Assistant] Is language the hardest part, or was there something else that you felt to be difficult when you had such a variety of international partners, especially the Russians?

[User] The language is a difficulty, but then again you have the interpreters. They have a different way of looking at life than what we do. Whereas we're more linear and time controlled, they're more people oriented. They may be an hour late for a meeting and think nothing of it, because they were doing something with the families, whereas if the Americans are an hour late, they want to know why you're an hour late.

[Assistant] I guess that just made your job more of a challenge to get those meetings rescheduled.

[User] At times.

[Assistant] Was there ever a calm time during Shuttle-Mir in your office? Was it busier during the missions than when you weren't having a mission?